# Interest in a modern homage to the O&W Early Bird....



## Dennis Smith

Hi all,
I made a horrible mistake when modifiying the previous thread on this discussion and it evaporated. Sorry! :roll:
Please sound off your thoughts and interest in a modern Early Bird. :-!
I plan on approaching Mitch at Ocean7/AirNautic about the project if we have enough interest...he seems very responsive and willing to produce 24 hour/niche watches. Could base it off the G-1 platform.

The original....














































This is the Ocean7 G-1, which is 40mm but a much different case than the EB (more like a typical Submariner type)...










Due to the EB's case shape, perhaps something like the MKII MMT would be a better starting point?...


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## whifferdill

Might be something I'd be interested in - I really like the bezels of the Early Birds - especially the lume marker, which means you can use it for timing as well as for a second time zone. If the watch came with decent WR ( 200m or so ) it could be a real winner! |>


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## TZAG

Do we know the size of it? Will it be 40mm? I wish it'll look similar to EB :roll:


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## zippofan

I would definitely prefer a case style like the Blackwater. I had a G-1, very nice watch but also very much like a sub. In fact, I wish some manufacturer would make a diver with that classic style case (the "Jaws" watch) too.


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## TimeOnTarget

I have always liked the EB but the lack of a date feature kept me away. I also like the fact that it is hand wound. Excellent lume would be a must for me, and I prefer 12 on top.

+1 on the blackwater case.


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## whifferdill

Blackwater case vote from me, too. Date would be nice. I'd also be happy with an acrylic crystal, though i know you'd be looking for domed sapphire Dennis;-) Options on things like this would be nice.


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## hharry

Look, i don't want to be a party pooper but how much would it cost?


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## Dennis Smith

hharry said:


> Look, i don't want to be a party pooper but how much would it cost?


No idea really, since we're just kicken' up the dust, but with the ideas we're contemplating I'd guess around $750.


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## TZAG

Seems better with MKII blackwater's case. New EB's bezel should cover the crown though, just like the old one.
But what about crystal. It should be wider in that case.


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## Dennis Smith

I sent this thread to Bill Yao, since we all seem to be leaning in his direction. I'm curious to hear his reaction


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## HilltopMichael

I like that Early Bird a lot and would certainly be interested in something similar. I would really like it to have the large, domed acrylic crystal. I do tend to prefer larger watches - 46 mm would be perfect for me. I would also rather not have a date...


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## GarageBoy

Is that stainless or base metal anyways?


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## Dennis Smith

The original? It's stainless steel.... At least it has the look and feel of solid stainless steel, and it says "stainless steel" on the case back.


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## GarageBoy

Thanks. I saw an O&W with severe pitting on sale on the sales board, so I was naturally curious


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## PulpMysteryFan

I tend to like smaller watches, like 38mm. (Actually, I think the original was 38mm.)


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## whifferdill

I think same or similar size to original would work best - around 40mm. What's the Blackwater case size?


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## Dennis Smith

The Blackwater is an interesting measure because of the asymmetrical case shape, but yeah, it's approximately 40mm.
The dial is 28mm, the bezel is 39.25mm, lug-lug 47.5mm, 13.3mm thick, and width 43.2mm including crown.
Most people say it's too small, but I've owned a couple and I'd say it's perfect.
Still, we're just "what iffing" here. No word from Bill on any of this as yet.
I know he's a busy man with the new Kingston and Paradive projects.


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## citralex

Thanks for losing my original post , you've made a better job than I did. john.


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## Dennis Smith

citralex said:


> Thanks for losing my original post , you've made a better job than I did. john.


Hi John,
 I felt horrible. Glad you approve of this attempt


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## KXL

40 MM is too small. Minimum of 43.

Agree with 12 on top, excellent lume [to include bezel], date, and a 200 M WR.

No way on hand wind---even niche guys like me want an automatic we can just keep on the winder and have ready to go....KX


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## siv

This is an interesting prospect - I guess the real question is how many people would be willing to buy such a thing.

What may be interesting is to look into a version made based on a Japanese GMT movement. Maybe someone like Harold can do something like this for significantly lower cost. Even (heaven forbid) a Kinetic movement...


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## Dapper

Love the idea & would be interested in buying :-!

I'd prefer 'Alpha' level pricing & would be happier with a 'Sub' style case.

Incentive for me would be a date at bottom centre |>


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## camit34

I like it a lot but don't count me as a possible purchase, I'm not at that level yet.


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## Yao

The MMT case would have to be made slightly thicker to accommodate the 2893-2. If you were considering just using a MMT case to do a 24 hour watch unfortunately it's not physically possible. There isn't enough room in there for the movement. The stem height of the 2893-2 is larger than the 2824-2 even though the movement is thinner.

By the way I also love the EB. I used to own one. Unfortunately I sold it because it was too hard for me to keep track of the 24 hour time. 

An homage would have to start with a new case.


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## TZAG

Thank you for the clarifications Bill.


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## Dennis Smith

Hi Bill,
Thanks for checking in. You know I'm a big fan of your work.
I know the cost would go way up due to the much more refined case, but how about the wonderful Paradive case? Would it work with the 2893? Same basic shape as the Early Bird (like the MMT) only a tad bigger


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## Dennis Smith

*Hope....*

Hi guys,
:-!|>
We got a solid "maybe" from Mitch at Ocean7 regarding this project. He'll consider making this watch, using the G-1 as a base with the Pepsi bezel, and then using a custom dial and hands to match the Early Bird (though I suggested a date at the bottom of the dial). He would need solid commitments and deposits for all intersted. He would need to make 50 of them...I'm not sure at this point how many pre-orders he would need to start the project. He's worried he wouldn't have 50 interested buyers for this product, but I think he would. Please, if you're interested in this watch as described go to this thread on the O7 forum and make yourself heard! Please try to spread the word among your WUS friends as well.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=2469993#poststop


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## whifferdill

*Re: Hope....*

Cool - Im a definite maybe or even maybe definite!

Date would be good. An entirely personal thing and it moves away from the purity of the original dial, but I'd like to see 5 minute numerals around the dial ie: 5, 10, 15, 20 etc but I can understand if this is not a popular option - with this, the bezel and lume marker, and the date - Id be getting damned close to my perfect flying watch!


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## wemedge

*Re: Hope....*

I posted in the thread over in the Ocean7/AirNautic forum. Having owned both the G-1 GMT and the Early Bird I think that the G-1 case would be great. The Early Bird is very nice and was my main watch for some time. I was always afraid to damage it, though, it seemed so light, and the bezel turned too easily. The G-1 case and bezel would rectify this. Include and date and better water resistance, and it would certainly be something to consider.

cheers,
wemedge


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## Dennis Smith

Go to the Ocean7 thread and check this out 

Here's my favorite...hope you guys like it...
With date and with 12 on top for a nice modern twist on the classic...
Would have domed sapphire crystal.
So, would you buy this for $700 (as a guess, based on Mitch's estimate)?


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## TimeOnTarget

That is looking very good!!

I assume this is an automatic based on the 21 jewels. We are getting away from the original but maybe this is just the reality of the situation (makes me sad a bit). What about the lume?


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## whifferdill

Looking very good indeed - I'll have to check out the other versions on the Ocean 7 forum but it's a good looking watch. I'm not sure I like the Rolex style bezel ( the shiny knurled edges ) but you can't have it all.

If I went for this it would have to tempt me away from my Glycine, so i'd have to be sure, but the price sounds very reasonable. 

Will the sapphire have AR? I'd need it on both sides or the reflections from the domed sapphire would drive me nuts! If not - any chance of an acrylic option?


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## zippofan

The G-1 is a nice watch, I had one and (stupidly) sold it. I'm not sure if I like the case/bezel enough to make a commitment on it with an EB dial though. I would sure love an EB in a Paradive case, and would go the extra mile money wise for it. Bill makes so many watches I would love to own, an EB homage in the classic shaped case would be the ultimate for me.

Of course, that would mean selling a chunk of my collection, but it would be worth it.

Cheers,
Griff

Edit: Just saw the second G-1 drawing with custom bezel, that I could go for!


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## Dennis Smith

It would be the ETA 2893. I would want the lum the same as the EB...All the hands, markers, the bezel dot, AND all the arabic numbers on the dial. Would need to confirm this with O7.
No word yet on any AR on the domed sapphire. The G-1 usually comes with flat sapphire with a cyclops, so that would be cheaper and easier, but I thought the domed would be more in the aesthitic of the EB. Acrylic would not work, I don't believe, with this case.
We are the heart of this project so we can agree on what we want...which would be fantastic. Need to keep in mind that we'll need many orders in place before Mitch produces the watch. With this in mind the simpler we make it, the cheaper it is, the easier it will be to get the orders. I'm planning on finalizing the design soon with your help, then working on the orders in some manner with O7, and then hoping to see this one produced . 
This one would mean a lot to me since it would be "our" watch. The little 24 Hour Forum's watch...imagine that ;-)


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> It would be the ETA 2893. I would want the lum the same as the EB...All the hands, markers, the bezel dot, AND all the arabic numbers on the dial. Would need to confirm this with O7.
> No word yet on any AR on the domed sapphire. The G-1 usually comes with flat sapphire with a cyclops, so that would be cheaper and easier, but I thought the domed would be more in the aesthitic of the EB. Acrylic would not work, I don't believe, with this case.
> We are the heart of this project so we can agree on what we want...which would be fantastic. Need to keep in mind that we'll need many orders in place before Mitch produces the watch. With this in mind the simpler we make it, the cheaper it is, the easier it will be to get the orders. I'm planning on finalizing the design soon with your help, then working on the orders in some manner with O7, and then hoping to see this one produced .
> This one would mean a lot to me since it would be "our" watch. The little 24 Hour Forum's watch...imagine that ;-)


Yep - very cool, Dennis.|>

I'd be happy with flat AR sapphire and a cyclops, even though this moves away from the look of the EB, but if it makes things simpler, easier and ultimately cheaper, it's not a bad compromise.

Would you need lume on all the arabic numerals if the hour markers were nicely lumed?

The great attraction of this watch for me, is that it combines the dual 24 hour set up of the Glycines with a very versatile bezel - being able to use the bezel as a timing device or as a second time zone as circumstances change, would just add so much to its usefulness for my own particular needs.

Do you know if the bezel on the G1 is bi-directional? Friction or ratchet?


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## MitchSF

Since we already have lots of date rings for the AN-24 series in stock, a white on black date at 4:30 (9 on the 24 hour dial) may even work best.

Mitch


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## TZAG

Will it be also "24-up" version or not? :-s


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## Dennis Smith

We've decided to make it 24 on top, to more match the original Bird. It's a tough call, because many prefer 12 on top and partly because the watch will be an AirNautic product and the 12 on top 24 hour watch is their standard. Mitch has been kind enough to allow 24 on top for this one, to more honor the EB.
We're finalizing the rest of the design, trying to make as many happy as possible while also keeping costs down. Preorders will be right at $599. We'll need 20 orders to make this happen (instead of 50) but we might be able to get Mitch to launch production with quite a bit fewer than 20 orders (we'll see, and I'll keep you posted. Once we have enough orders to launch, the preordering will be shut down. Very few of these will be made, and those sold after preorder will be more expensive, at least $649). I'll be running the entire commit list and non-refundable cashier's check/money order deposits (wow...but someone had to do it..."Help me Tom Cruise!"). More on that in a bit. I'll start a sticky thread at the top of the page in a day or two with a mock up of the final design and all the details. It really looks like this is going to happen


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## siv

What would be cool is to have "WatchUSeek 24-Hour Forum Limited Edition" on the case back


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## citralex

Hi Denis . When I started this off I did'nt realize how fast it would grow , unfortunatly it has priced it's self out of my reach. I was thinking more along the lines of the Alpha GMT , which is very similar to the likely end result . From a purely personal point of view If I have to scrimp and save for this I would rather go for the original .I wish you well with this and will follow the progress. Regards John.


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## whifferdill

OK Dennis - shame about the 24 on top but I'm happy with either.

What about the bezel - is it bidirectional or unidirectional?

Are we going flat sapphire AR and black on white date at 3 or white on black date at 9?


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## Dennis Smith

It's a unidirectional bezel (I'm almost positive)
Flat sapphire with AR underside, white on black date at 0900
The watch is a little larger than I thought....
42mm, 22mm lug, and 30 ATM water rating (about 1,000 feet).


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## Dennis Smith

The price for preorders may come down a little more. I'll know in the morning.


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> It's a unidirectional bezel (I'm almost positive)
> Flat sapphire with AR underside, white on black date at 0900
> The watch is a little larger than I thought....
> 42mm, 22mm lug, and 30 ATM water rating (about 1,000 feet).


Thanks for the info Dennis

That's a bit of a sticking point for me - for this watch to be really useful and worth me replacing my Glycine with it, I'd want to see a bidirectional bezel, which just makes sense - though I know Mitch is constrained by existing parts, but it's a shame - I'll have to think about this one.

Everything else - the 24 on top, crystal and the date at 9, I think will work well ( though I'm not a fan of having 'Early bird' printed on the dial either - I think Air Nautic and the 21 Jewels is fine - keeps the dial clean and in keeping with the original ) but a unidirectional bezel on a second time zone watch I'm not sure about.


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## citralex

Hi the bezel on my Alpha GMT is bi-directional , but that might just be a fault. john.


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## siv

I think that a uni-directional bezel is due to a ratchet or spring (I don't now the correct term) under the bezel. If a different type of spring is used (one that allows movement in both directions) then it should be OK.










This is my simplistic take on it - the bezel may not allow it or such a spring may not be available for this case.


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## whifferdill

Thanks for the replies there guys - just trying to find out if a bidirectional bezel could be an option on this piece - I hope so.


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## Dennis Smith

Great diagram, Siv. I have seen springs just like that to allow bidirectional movement. I'll try and find out for you guys ASAP.


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> Great diagram, Siv. I have seen springs just like that to allow bidirectional movement. I'll try and find out for you guys ASAP.


:-!


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## Dennis Smith

Hi Whiff...here's the response I posted on the O7 forum...

Hi Whiff,
Keeping the Early Bird off the dial is acceptable to me. I thought it might be confusing to have a watch called the Early Bird, but with an Ocean7 case and AirNautic dial and no EB anywhere ;-). But for collectors who will buy this watch, I can understand it won't matter.
I just got word back from Mitch that the bezels will have to be unidirectional. After I get the watch, I can remove the bezel and discover how easy it might be to modify it for bidirectional use. I've done this on other watches with 24 hour bezels. One was easily converted to bidirectional clicks and the others to bidirectional friction (simply be removing the spring altogether).
I like the look of the 12 on top mock-up above, with the easy to read date window (black on white). Would this be good for you Whiff? The idea of going to the same configuration with white on black was to please the date guys and the non-date guys with one watch.
I know you (and I for that matter) would prefer 12 on top for functional reasons. I'm still torn on that issue :-(


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## Dennis Smith

*O&W Early Bird homage final....*

Hi all,
I have enjoyed everyone's input and discussion on this project, this dream of mine.:-! In finalizing the design I have made the following decisions using the following rationale...

My goal in this project was to have a watch very nearly as beautiful as the original Bird, but ready for every day use in the cockpit and field operations with sapphire crystal with inside AR coating, date display, and good water rating.

This watch is being born by 24 hour purists and enthusiests, but equally so by pilots who want a useable, beautiful tool. With this in mind I have chosen function as a priority.

We'll go with 24 on top to resemble the original. We'll have a date display in a subordinate position but also make it very visible and easy to read at a glance (very important in the cockpit), hence the black on white display at 2130. The Ocean7 case provides 30 ATM rating (1,000 feet!), so no worries there. Unfortunately, the bezel will remain unidirectional. Here's my idea for the final watch. Let me know right away if you have strong objections, because I'm putting up the official order form in a day or two. Imagine this with a round date window at 0900...










Some very good news! Only 20 pre-orders will be needed to ensure production. The price will be lower than originally thought...only $549! After the first 20 orders are placed, pre-order will cease. Up to 50 watches will be made, and those ordering later will pay $100 or more over the pre-order rate. After that, it is highly unlikely (though not impossible) that any more will be made.

I will have the order form centralized as a sticky note on the 24 hour forum where I moderate, and links to it from many other forums, especially the Ocean7 forum. I will describe all the particulars of the watch and the ordering rules at that time.

After we get the required number of orders, the watches may be ready in 90 days.

Finally, I thank Mitch for letting this happen, and the input of all (and Malyel) for the resulting design. :thanks


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## Guido Muldoon

*Re: O&W Early Bird homage final....*

As soon as you start taking deposits I'll reserve one. Thanks for your work on this project Dennis and also thanks to Cannon for his great (as always) drawings.


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## zippofan

*Re: O&W Early Bird homage final....*

OK, I just subscribed to this thread and the O7 forum thread, I'm not missing out on this one, and I know I am going to catch heck from my wife too. I've wanted an Early Bird since I first saw one, this version being one that I can wear and not be afraid of damaging an expensive vintage piece. I've owned the G-1 and know that it is a quality piece, though I will confess that once purchased and arrived, it's going on a strap!

Cheers,
Griff


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> Hi Whiff...here's the response I posted on the O7 forum...
> 
> Hi Whiff,
> Keeping the Early Bird off the dial is acceptable to me. I thought it might be confusing to have a watch called the Early Bird, but with an Ocean7 case and AirNautic dial and no EB anywhere ;-). But for collectors who will buy this watch, I can understand it won't matter.
> I just got word back from Mitch that the bezels will have to be unidirectional. After I get the watch, I can remove the bezel and discover how easy it might be to modify it for bidirectional use. I've done this on other watches with 24 hour bezels. One was easily converted to bidirectional clicks and the others to bidirectional friction (simply be removing the spring altogether).
> I like the look of the 12 on top mock-up above, with the easy to read date window (black on white). Would this be good for you Whiff? The idea of going to the same configuration with white on black was to please the date guys and the non-date guys with one watch.
> I know you (and I for that matter) would prefer 12 on top for functional reasons. I'm still torn on that issue :-(


Hi Dennis

Thanks for the response and al your efforts with this - an excellent project.

As you know and like you, I'd much prefer a 12 on top design, but I can see why Mitch is going with the 24 on top and that's not a sticking point for me, just a preference.

The bezel is a bit of an issue for me, however and I'm not sure about ordering one with a uni-directional bezel and then having to go to the hassle of having it modified.

Is there any way I could request a pre-modified bezel? I wouldn't mind paying a little more to do this. I'm going to be using the watch a _lot_ more in the cockpit than as a diver and for me - a unidirectional bezel would be an annoyance.

The date's not such an issue - I liked the 12 on top with date at the 18:00 version, but again, a compromise that suits most people has to be found, so I'm OK with a round date window at 9, as long as I can see it!

I'd be selling off the Glycine for this one, so it has to be right for me.....

Really asppreciate your and everyone's efforts for doing this, however and as I say - a really great project that deserves to see the light of day.|>


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## Dennis Smith

Good morning!
Thanks for your understanding. 
You know I prefer 12 on top as well, but it just couldn't be.
I've also been told that the bezel will have to be delivered unidirectional. I don't think it's an issue of cost or modifying, it's more an economies of scale...just can't have a "one-off".


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## siv

Whatever the outcome, at the advertised price, I'm in.

By the way, will the watch come with a bracelet? Or will that be extra?


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> Good morning!
> Thanks for your understanding.
> You know I prefer 12 on top as well, but it just couldn't be.
> I've also been told that the bezel will have to be delivered unidirectional. I don't think it's an issue of cost or modifying, it's more an economies of scale...just can't have a "one-off".


OK Dennis - thanks for your efforts.

I'll have to think about this.

Cheers for now


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## Dennis Smith

It will come with the bracelet. It's a 22mm Oyster style with screw pins.


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## Dennis Smith

Hi Whiff,
During this project we've come upon three absolutes...
The bezel must remain unidirectional, the crystal will be flat sapphire (with underside AR), and 24 on top.
Otherwise we're pretty much free to roam.
I think we'll have a watch that will make a majority very happy.
Replace the Airman? I don't know. That's a special, limited watch as well. Maybe you could have both? I hope so. This one's a pretty good deal at the preorder price.


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> Hi Whiff,
> During this project we've come upon three absolutes...
> The bezel must remain unidirectional, the crystal will be flat sapphire (with underside AR), and 24 on top.
> Otherwise we're pretty much free to roam.
> I think we'll have a watch that will make a majority very happy.
> Replace the Airman? I don't know. That's a special, limited watch as well. Maybe you could have both? I hope so. This one's a pretty good deal at the preorder price.


All understood Dennis - I can appreciate the constraints and it would be a real shame to see the Glycine go - but I wouldn't want two, dual time 24 hour watches in the rotation. The bezel being bidirectional would have swung it for me, but as it is, I'm not sure I'd want to flip my Special II.

Thanks again for all your help.


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## citralex

Hi dennis , Still watching !!!!. Will the price include shipping to Scotland and do I get a discount for coming up with the idea in the first place. Regards John.


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## Dennis Smith

Hi John,
I'll check into the shipping. 
I think Mitch has gone as low on the preorder price that he can possibly go, So no other discounts. I will surely ask, though. Your initiative was wonderful.


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## Dennis Smith

OK guys, it's time to order...

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=336479


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## Dennis Smith

Hi John,
The shipping price is now on the ordering page (stuck on top of this forum).
Sorry, no other discounts at this time.


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## TimeOnTarget

I have to say that I am really torn over the 24 on top issue. Dennis, you have done a great job in retaining the original look of the EB. 

Do most of you prefer 24 on top? If you don't care, then does it hurt to have 12 on top? I realize that we can't make everybody happy; I'm just asking.

How would the movement be configured? Would the 24 hour hand be set up on the "24" hour hand of the 2893 allowing for rapid quick set function? In this case, the 12 hour hand would be bypassed altogether. 

I also appreciate the semi-sterile logo on the dial.


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## Dennis Smith

Hey bud,
The ordering page is actually up...as a sticky on the top of this forum. The design has been finalized. It's 24 on top...which was one of the required items from Mitch (to keep the dial the same orientation as the original). Yes, the 12 hour hand pinion will be empty.


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## siv

Is it worth posting this on other forums like TZ or PMWF to get additional buyers? Or do we think we'll hit 20 without problem with just WUS?


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## Dennis Smith

Hi Siv,
I tried to post this link on the TZ Public Forum, but the link was blocked and then the post was deleted. TZ is privately owned so they don't like other forums.
I posted it on MWR.
I posted it in the sales corner here, under the Dealers section.
I would think anything you guys can do, or suggest, to get the word out would be a big help.
That being said, we're well on our way to getting the required number of pre-orders, and I'm talking to interested guys every day.


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## Dan01

I bumped it in the sales forum today and I can try and do that on a daily basis if you would like.



Dennis Smith said:


> Hi Siv,
> I tried to post this link on the TZ Public Forum, but the link was blocked and then the post was deleted. TZ is privately owned so they don't like other forums.
> I posted it on MWR.
> I posted it in the sales corner here, under the Dealers section.
> I would think anything you guys can do, or suggest, to get the word out would be a big help.
> That being said, we're well on our way to getting the required number of pre-orders, and I'm talking to interested guys every day.


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## whifferdill

Dennis Smith said:


> Hi Siv,
> I tried to post this link on the TZ Public Forum, but the link was blocked and then the post was deleted. TZ is privately owned so they don't like other forums.
> I posted it on MWR.
> I posted it in the sales corner here, under the Dealers section.
> I would think anything you guys can do, or suggest, to get the word out would be a big help.
> That being said, we're well on our way to getting the required number of pre-orders, and I'm talking to interested guys every day.


Great stuff and good ideas, all.|>


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