# Vintage Zenith Automatic "Diver"? Idenfication help requested



## almost (Jan 26, 2008)

Hi, 
Could not find details about this watch on the net. Could someone kindly advice the model, movement, year etc. 

It's about 42mm wide and the diver lug has "z" inside a 5star. The back has a 4 wing spiral logo. The face is reflecting metal gray (with a little brown, maybe) and the hands are bright! Swiss Made T so trinium shines in the markers. Crystal looks original and comes 4mm out the case. 

Thanks,
almost


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I haven't seen one of those before either - the Zenith Divers I have seen of about that time have had an orange bezel. It also looks as if the hands had tritium and it fell out. If the back had a four-armed star, it ought to be from the very late sixties or early seventies, my guess would be about 1969-1972, and have a Cal. 2562 PC or 2572 PC. It is just about possible that it might have a (Movado) Cal. 408 (in which case it ought to have a beat frequency of 36000 A/h).

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

A shot of the movement would sure help settle some issues. Do you know if that is possible almost?

Dan


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## onlyprecious (Jan 19, 2008)

You are always perfect Mr. Richter.
this watch has a screw back case with old Zenith Logo and it is equipped by one of the two movement Zenith (an not Movado) you are writing...
Really, in origin Zenith created with this strange case only a Chronograph Serie called Sub....
Normal "alone Time" watches, were realised normally on two models: the one with about 38-39 mm Diameter and external black bezel (similar to a Rolex Submariner Bezel) and then, on about 1000 units, the other Monstrous Size Model..the great Sub Zenith watch (orange or light yellow or black dials & bezels..) the model you are referring to now...
But after this 2 models, we know that Zenith realized also, on very small quantity, this strange Sub Model with rotating internal bezel (and not external one..).
This watch was has lost tritium on hands; central seconds hand is not original ( original is always red but has a little rectangular terminal "head");
also I have a few doubts about steel raised markers on the dial, as always original markers must have been as 3-6-9-12 markers are and, so, a little rectangular raised steel marker with at its center a little band on tritium...
I think that dial has been modified during time by someone who as attached on surface other steel markers not original (with the exception of 3-6-9-12 hours...)
Movement correct caliber is one you have indicated and also years of construction are right.
Congrats you are always a GREAT COLLECTOR and specialist..
Excuse me for terrible English.
Best regards,
Giulio

:thanks



Hartmut Richter said:


> I haven't seen one of those before either - the Zenith Divers I have seen of about that time have had an orange bezel. It also looks as if the hands had tritium and it fell out. If the back had a four-armed star, it ought to be from the very late sixties or early seventies, my guess would be about 1969-1972, and have a Cal. 2562 PC or 2572 PC. It is just about possible that it might have a (Movado) Cal. 408 (in which case it ought to have a beat frequency of 36000 A/h).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## almost (Jan 26, 2008)

Thanks Giulio!
If someone has a picture of this watch in original condition please post it here. I'll have the back opened next week and take a picture and write down any possible serial etc numbers.
almost



onlyprecious said:


> You are always perfect Mr. Richter.
> this watch has a screw back case with old Zenith Logo and it is equipped by one of the two movement Zenith (an not Movado) you are writing...
> Really, in origin Zenith created with this strange case only a Chronograph Serie called Sub....
> Normal "alone Time" watches, were realised normally on two models: the one with about 38-39 mm Diameter and external black bezel (similar to a Rolex Submariner Bezel) and then, on about 1000 units, the other Monstrous Size Model..the great Sub Zenith watch (orange or light yellow or black dials & bezels..) the model you are referring to now...
> ...


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## onlyprecious (Jan 19, 2008)

almost said:


> Thanks Giulio!
> If someone has a picture of this watch in original condition please post it here. I'll have the back opened next week and take a picture and write down any possible serial etc numbers.
> almost


Here you have a link to a site where is displayed Vintage Zenith Chrono sub version..
Note that Chronos production was higher than that of your strange watch; case have the same size excepted obviously the 2 pump pushers.
regards,
Giulio
http://www.watchpassion.net/WatchesList.aspx?marca=ZENITH


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

My dear Sir, you do me far too much honour! Your knowledge seems to beat mine hands down!!! Furthermore, I am not sure to what extent I could be regarded as a collector since my financial means do not permit the greatest of watch collections - I am more of an afficionado than a collector. I do try to keep up with trends and extend my technical and historical knowledge as much as I can, though.....

Again, many thanks and let me assure you that your English is quite good enough!

Hartmut Richter


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## onlyprecious (Jan 19, 2008)

Hartmut Richter said:


> My dear Sir, you do me far too much honour! Your knowledge seems to beat mine hands down!!! Furthermore, I am not sure to what extent I could be regarded as a collector since my financial means do not permit the greatest of watch collections - I am more of an afficionado than a collector. I do try to keep up with trends and extend my technical and historical knowledge as much as I can, though.....
> 
> Again, many thanks and let me assure you that your English is quite good enough!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Dear HArmut,
I always read with attention your posts and believe me when I say that you know more old Zenith brand that many persons working into this Great Factory!
Regards,
Giulio


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

onlyprecious said:


> Dear HArmut,
> I always read with attention your posts and believe me when I say that you know more old Zenith brand that many persons working into this Great Factory!
> Regards,
> Giulio


I second that!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks, guys - if my present career breaks down, I'll try to get a job at Zenith and start up a museum there! Still, if I get to choose the rest of the staff, you're both in too!

Hartmut Richter


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## almost (Jan 26, 2008)

Hello all, 
The insides of the watch tells another story:

2542 PC
25Jewels

The watch maker is an elderly gentleman and he recalls this is the movement used as a platform to which the "El Primero" chrono parts were added. Further he confirmed ~1970

Regards
almost



Hartmut Richter said:


> I haven't seen one of those before either - the Zenith Divers I have seen of about that time have had an orange bezel. It also looks as if the hands had tritium and it fell out. If the back had a four-armed star, it ought to be from the very late sixties or early seventies, my guess would be about 1969-1972, and have a Cal. 2562 PC or 2572 PC. It is just about possible that it might have a (Movado) Cal. 408 (in which case it ought to have a beat frequency of 36000 A/h).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

2542 PC? In 1970?! Sound almost too early.....

The 25x2 (where x is somewhere between 2 and 7) series are identical in most respects, the "P" version being automatic, the "C" version having a date and the "PC" obviously having both features. The main differnces between the (numerically different) versions are beat frequency and the form of fine adjustment on the balance. Compare the various entries in Ranfft:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk

(.....and scroll down for the various movements).

The Cal. 2542 was made between 1964 and 1969. I find it hard to place the watch any earlier than about 1969 but I could be wrong on that. Of course, there is always the possibility that it was made in 1970 and that Zenith were using up old stock of movements. The serial number - if there is one on the movement - would be able to confirm the date of manufacture.

I am not sure whether the El Primero was based on the Cal. 25x2 series but I doubt it. The TDB-K 1369 chronograph movement (the one with the totalizers in the zany positions - 11:00, 2:30 and 6:00) had the chronograph bits placed movement side of an automatic base movement, for which the rotor had to be raised. As such, it was not really integrated (although it looks it a first sight) but modular and it was distinctly thicker than the EP. The El Primero was notable for being the thinnest automatic chronograph for a long time (until the advent of the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185, to be precise) and they would never have been able to do that by just slapping a module onto a Cal. 25x2 base. I have heard (but cannot confirm!), however, that the Cal. 25x2 series was really a Martel movement which came to Zenith when they bought up that company. However, I have yet to see a 25x2 movement in any other watch by another company so that may well be a myth!

Hartmut Richter


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## onlyprecious (Jan 19, 2008)

Hartmut Richter said:


> 2542 PC? In 1970?! Sound almost too early.....
> 
> The 25x2 (where x is somewhere between 2 and 7) series are identical in most respects, the "P" version being automatic, the "C" version having a date and the "PC" obviously having both features. The main differnces between the (numerically different) versions are beat frequency and the form of fine adjustment on the balance. Compare the various entries in Ranfft:
> 
> ...


Mr Harmut,
I am very surpised about you another time!
Perhaps, on a previous life you were the creator of Zenith?
Perfect description; it was not possible to create Zenith El Primero Chrono Movement based on 2542 "onlytime" movement; perhaps a few components were studied also on 2542 PC movement (for example winding rotor)and its life) but nothing else more at all.
Here are the pics of first model Zenith El Primero version launched only on a few models during Basel Swiss Shoowroom on 1969.
Best regards,
Giulio


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

"Many thanks for the flowers", we say in Germany! I am not sure I know all THAT much - there was a Zenith expert on the old forum, MichaelJ, who we seem to have lost in the switch (perhaps he still looks in every now and then?!) - his knowledge was quite amazing!

As for the Cal. 2542 being the base for the EP, this isn't really possibly for other reasons, on second thought! The 25x2 series has a direct central seconds hand and the EP is a classical lepine-based calibre (small permanent second hand opposite the crown). No way of really getting the two compatible. Interestingly enough, I have heard that the Elite was originally designed to be so thin to accommodate modules and may well have been designed with possible chronograph functions at the back of someone's mind. It is probably no surprise that it is basically also a lepine calibre (the central seconds version is actually an indirect central seconds movement) - with the permanent second right where you'd want it for a chronograph!

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Thanks for the nice pictures onlyprecious. Those are some very nice shots. It is good to see that it has been loved and used much!

Take care,

Dan


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## MikaelB (May 23, 2008)

Dear Almost

I have the exakt same watch as yours, dated by Zenith to ca 1969, as you can see on the pics my watch are not in the same condition as yours.
The settingcrown are replaced and the crystal have some scratches.




Sincerly Mikael B in Sweden


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Doesn't look that bad to me! Even still has the lume on the hands!! Movement is pretty clean too. The main problem seems to be the crystal and possibly the dial. I'd try to replace the former and accept the latter - it doesn't look bad enough to go for a redial.

Nice watch! Thanks for posting the piccies.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Doesn't look that bad to me! Even still has the lume on the hands!! Movement is pretty clean too. The main problem seems to be the crystal and possibly the dial. I'd try to replace the former and accept the latter - it doesn't look bad enough to go for a redial.
> 
> Nice watch! Thanks for posting the piccies.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I agree with Hartmut on the redial. You may be able to find a replacement crystal quciker than you think. The replacement crown, sadly, may be harder.

But that is one nice looking watch!

Thanks for sharing with us!

Dan


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## onlyprecious (Jan 19, 2008)

D N Ravenna said:


> I agree with Hartmut on the redial. You may be able to find a replacement crystal quciker than you think. The replacement crown, sadly, may be harder.
> 
> But that is one nice looking watch!
> 
> ...


It is all correct my Dear Experts,

Crystal glass is avalilable at the moment in Official Switzerland Zenith Center while also winding crowns are available too but (note well) ONLY in the recent new version star logo (so about after 1970, I think)
So, our other Friend in Sweden could contact Zenith by his personal watchmaker or trought the nearest Zenith Authorised Dealer in his Country..

regards and ciao,

Giulio onlyprecious

:-!:-!:-!


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Cool! If you get some "after" pictures, please share them!

Thanks,

Dan


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

I have the same Watch but with more numbering on the internal bezel it also has the original Gay Freres stainless strap which is date stamped 1-69 which I think may be an indication of the year the watch was made.I would appriciate any help with the model Number.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Pictures please! It seems like most of the ones of the orginal thread are gone. Placing yours will be a big help!

Thanks!
Dan


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

+1 on the photo request, I think these divers are fantastic and have been looking for one for some time (offered to take the one from the original post but the owner quite understandable wanted to hold onto it!).


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

D N Ravenna said:


> Pictures please! It seems like most of the ones of the orginal thread are gone. Placing yours will be a big help!
> 
> Thanks!
> Dan


OK, Here are the pictures, any info would be much appreciated,

Regards,

Doug

http://www.travis1.madasafish.com/P1040073.JPG
http://www.travis1.madasafish.com/P1040074.JPG
http://www.travis1.madasafish.com/P1040076.JPG


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

I have added some pictures now, please let me know if you can see them ok.

Regards Doug.


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

D N Ravenna said:


> Pictures please! It seems like most of the ones of the orginal thread are gone. Placing yours will be a big help!
> 
> Thanks!
> Dan


Sorry I got a bit carried away there and put on pics of wrong watch. These are the correct ones!!
ftp://www.travis1.madasafish.com/feb hol 007.JPG
ftp://www.travis1.madasafish.com/feb hol 008.JPG


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

D N Ravenna said:


> Pictures please! It seems like most of the ones of the orginal thread are gone. Placing yours will be a big help!
> 
> Thanks!
> Dan


Sorry I got a bit carried away there and put on pics of wrong watch. These are the correct ones!!
www.travis1.madasafish.com/feb%20hol%20007.JPG
www.travis1.madasafish.com/feb%20hol%20008.JPG


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hmm. Found two divers in the Rossler book, pages 184 & 187. They do not match yours. Perhaps someone else can chime in?

Thanks!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I am afraid I can't help there either. I have seen several like them, but I can't find the exact reference number in any of my literature sources. All I can say is that it's from 1969 or the early seventies.....

Hartmut Richter


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

That's lovely. I personally prefer the version with just the minute counter on the internal bezel but would give my left arm (no, wait a minute, where would I wear it!) to pick one of these up.


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

Forgot to ask, where did you find it?


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

This would probably be my favourite version...


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

hi

Believe it of not I picked this beauty up at a boot sale .


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

...desperately hoping it wasn't near me...

:-s


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

gunner said:


> "...but would give my left arm (no, wait a minute, where would I wear it!) to pick one of these up."


Personally, I'd only give my right arm to be ambidextrous!:-d

Hartmut Richter


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## hump3bogart (Feb 21, 2010)

Not unless you live in the Milton Keynes Area. This is the Second Zenith I have been lucky enough to pick up "Dirt Cheap" at a boot sale. I unfortunatly , not knowing that Zenith were at the high end of the watch market, sold it to a guy in Japan and, like this one could find no information on it. It was a battery operated watch, with a Square face and an unusual red led time display at the right hand corner of the watch face.The watch was all stainless steel. I wonder if any of you have seen one our heard of that model. I thought Zenith watches were all Auto/Mech.

Regards


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

hump3bogart said:


> Not unless you live in the Milton Keynes Area. This is the Second Zenith I have been lucky enough to pick up "Dirt Cheap" at a boot sale. I unfortunatly , not knowing that Zenith were at the high end of the watch market, sold it to a guy in Japan and, like this one could find no information on it. It was a battery operated watch, with a Square face and an unusual red led time display at the right hand corner of the watch face.The watch was all stainless steel. I wonder if any of you have seen one our heard of that model. I thought Zenith watches were all Auto/Mech.
> 
> Regards


The watch you are referring to is officially called the Zenith "Amerique", although I have heard others refer to it as the "Futur". It is from the late seventies and houses the only in-house Zenith quartz movement ever made, the Cal. 47.0 (or 47.1). Zenith also made quartz watches with generic movements in the eighties and nineties but stopped when they were taken over by LVMH. One of the reasons why Zenith mechanicals used to be so comparatively cheap is because they were "subsidised" by the revenue from the quartz section.

Hartmut Richter


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Nice find. All I ever find at boot sales are Casios and fake Rolexes brought back from holidays - Oh, and jigsaw puzzles with several pieces missing.

Dave


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Gombrich said:


> Nice find. All I ever find at boot sales are Casios and fake Rolexes brought back from holidays - Oh, and jigsaw puzzles with several pieces missing.
> 
> Dave


That's pretty funny! Thanks for the laugh! ;-)

Oh, and I wish you better luck in the future.

Cheers!

Dan


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

Afraid there aren't many boot sales in London but a trip to MK might be in order by the sound of it.


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