# Smoke and Mirrors - part 1 (ETA grades explained)



## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

We all learn early on in our watch collecting careers that it's common practice for companies to rename an ETA movement with their own model number after they modify it. It's an exercise that's been going on for years with more than just ETA products. Longines used Valjoux 72 chronograph movements under their code of 330 or 332, Cyma 380 automatics were renamed the Longines 480, and Marvin 700 series became their caliber 490. Omega used a Lemania chronograph movement for their famous calibers 321 and 861, and still use one as a base for their modern 1861. Breitling also employs Lemania movements for some of their modern manual wind watches, calling it the B12; they also used various Valjoux chronographs including the Valjoux 72 in their early Navitimers. So it's a fact that many brands are using 'customized' ETA movements inside their watches nowadays..... but what do they _really_ do to upgrade them? Let's have a look.

*Valjoux 7736 inside a vintage Breitling*







But before we get into individual companies and movements, there's some basic information you need to know. ETA sells their ebauchés in 4 grades, and not all of the grades are offered for every movement. They are Standard, Elaboré, Top, and Chronometre. The Valjoux 7750 does not come in the Standard Grade. Each grade has set performance parameters, and 95% of the ebauchés delivered in a lot must be within these limits.

Standard 
- adjusted in 2 positions: CH and 6H (click HERE for details on positional timekeeping terminology)
- average daily rate: +/- 12 seconds
- maximum positional variation: 30 seconds
- isochronism between 0 and 24 hours: +/- 20 seconds

Elaboré
- adjusted in 3 positions: CH, 6H, 9H
- average daily rate: +/- 7 seconds
- maximum positional variation: 20 seconds
- isochronism between 0 and 24 hours: +/- 15 seconds

Top
- adjusted in 5 positions: CH, FH, 6H, 9H, 3H
- average daily rate: +/- 4 seconds
- maximum positional variation: 15 seconds
- isochronism between 0 and 24 hours: +/- 10 seconds

Chronometre
- adjusted and timed per COSC specification (see above link under Standard) which is not much different from Top Grade

There are also upgraded parts made with different alloys and materials in the higher grades. The Standard and Elaboré calibers use Etachoc shock protection, a nickel balance wheel with a Nivarox 2 alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NO mainspring, a steel pallet lever and escape wheel, and polyruby pallet jewels. The Top and Chronometre calibers use Incabloc shock protection, a Glucydur balance wheel with an Anchron alloy hairspring, a Nivaflex NM mainspring, a Nivarox pallet lever and escape wheel, and ruby pallet jewels.

Explaining the advantage of a Glucydur balance over a nickel balance is simple: Glucydur (or beryllium bronze) resists deformation from temperature change or abuse much better than nickel so the balance wheel stays in balance and therefore keeps more consistent time.

*Glucydur balance wheel*







As far as the hairspring materials, there are 5 Nivarox versions - 1 being the highest grade, 5 being the lowest. The difference lies in the consistency of the timekeeping performance due to small changes in the alloyed metals. Nivarox hairsprings consist of cobalt (42-48%), nickel (15-25%), chromium (16-22%), and small amounts of titanium and beryllium. Anachron is said to be a better performing alloy than any Nivarox incarnation which is why it's used on the Top and Chronometre grades. What metals Anachron consists of is another mystery. I've asked watchmakers here and in the real world and searched the internet for days without finding any information. ETA does also offer the option to upgrade from a Niravox 2 to a Niravox 1 hairspring with the nickel balance wheel on the lower two grades. (click HERE and HERE for more information on the balance & hairsping assembly)

Explaining the variance between Nivaflex NO and Nivaflex NM mainsprings is more difficult - the alloy formulation changes are a trade secret so information is scarce even to watchmakers. I'm not sure if there is much of a change between the two since both Nivarox alloys are listed as 45% cobalt, 21% nickel, 18% chromium, 5% iron, 4% tungsten, 4% molybdenum, and 1% titanium. Do the math and that leaves 2% unaccounted for and who knows what elements fill that void. The difference in the NO and NM might only be tempering the end of the spring and bridle, but that would be an educated guess. (click HERE for more information on mainsprings)

The difference between polyrubies and rubies is based in the manufacturing process. Polyrubies are made from powder that's heat pressed into shape. They're translucent, almost foggy. Rubies are cut from a man-made crystal that's formed in an electro-chemical process. They're completely transparent with better consistency. (click HERE and HERE for more on jewels and shock protection)

The change in shock protection from Etachoc to Incabloc is mostly about price. Incabloc costs more... but for a good reason. The Incabloc system is made entirely to in-house parameters instead of assembled from off the shelf pieces which is a real advantage on the quality control front. Even the jewels are custom made by Sietz (who have practically monopolized the jewel making industry) to Incabloc's specifications. It's also easier to service the Incabloc system. ETA does offer an upgrade to Incabloc on Standard and Elaboré calibers.

.*Etachoc*......................*Incabloc*















pictures by Johnny P​
If you're curious, you can see illustrations of the dozens of different shock protection systems HERE.

*If any watchmaker or other industry insider would like to clue us in on some of the other secretive alterations in materials we'd certainly like to hear from you.*


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## Tzimisces (Apr 22, 2010)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*

Thanks for this. This is the kind of fun and informative post that keep me coming back. :-!
Beating up on, say, Bell & Ross is fun and very right and proper, but these threads where watch knowledge is shared are great.


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## v76 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*

Wonderful post there, Dennis. Great idea, and I laud your effort to share the information/knowledge you have unearthed from your experiences, from reading-up, talking to watchmakers, etc. I really look forward to Part II of this thread! |>


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*

Interesting information about the various movement and component grades. However the term *Smoke and Mirrors* is a nice way of describing an intent to deceive.Surely you are not saying that Omega, Breitling, Mido and all the other companies that re-label movements or don't disclose that components are made by others are guilty of deception and maybe fraud? Have you considered how many other consumer product companies relabel components and entire products made by others as their own?


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



John MS said:


> Interesting information about the various movement and component grades.


Thanks, it was fun to compile and sort out.



John MS said:


> However the term *Smoke and Mirrors* is a nice way of describing an intent to deceive.Surely you are not saying that Omega, Breitling, Mido and all the other companies that re-label movements or don't disclose that components are made by others are guilty of deception and maybe fraud?


Fraud? No. That's a legal term implying a criminal offense. If a brand does one small change they can get around that charge. Deception? Yes. Otherwise they'd call their movements the Valjoux 7750 instead of the Omega 1164 or Breitling B13 - but that will be discussed in part 2 in a few days. I've talked with 3 watchmakers while doing this - all of them do or have worked for VERY large brand names. The title "smoke and mirrors" is actually a direct quote from one of them when asked to sum up what most of the manufacturers do to improve ETA movements.



John MS said:


> Have you considered how many other consumer product companies relabel components and entire products made by others as their own?


There are plenty of other industries that do it. Canned food goods, appliances, and electronics come to mind - but seeing this is a watch forum, I don't think we'd be too interested in talking about groceries. :-d:-d:-d


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## Donf (Jul 11, 2006)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



John MS said:


> Interesting information about the various movement and component grades. However the term *Smoke and Mirrors* is a nice way of describing an intent to deceive.Surely you are not saying that Omega, Breitling, Mido and all the other companies that re-label movements or don't disclose that components are made by others are guilty of deception and maybe fraud? Have you considered how many other consumer product companies relabel components and entire products made by others as their own?


This has confused me for years. If you care/know enough about movements to check out the movement in a prospective purchase, you won't be fooled. If someone doesn't care - then why try to decieve that person? "I think it's a marketing issue as companies want to feel they have done something to justify a certain price.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

A few nits to pick...

1) Glucydur is usually described as a beryllium bronze alloy. It is an alloy of (primarialy) three elements - beryllium, copper and iron, brass alloys are defined as having a zinc content, therefore are softer than bronze alloys. Nickel is just as amagnetic as Glucydur, but Glucydur is harder and has a lower coefficient of thermal expansion....

The Glucydur balance on ETAs can be identified by the radiused spokes (as pictures above), the nickel balance has straight, tapering spokes.

2) The "ETAchoc" system shown is the same as the Novodiac shock protection system. Both are made by Incabloc, which is owned by SWATCH Group.

There was a second major shock protection system available on ETA movement (but no longer an option), and is often confused with the Novodiac/Etachoc, and that is the KIF system. (see below) The two are similar in assembly in the plate/cock, spring design and dismounting procedures but are made by different companies. KIF is owned by Rolex.

The major advantage of the Incabloc over the Novodiac and KIF can be seen in the two advertisements below. The KIF is a pressed in setting, while the Incabloc is held in place by a "U" clip on the bottom. This and the fact that the spring is captive in the Incabloc make it more "maintenance friendly."






























Donf said:


> This has confused me for years. If you care/know enough about movements to check out the movement in a prospective purchase, you won't be fooled. If someone doesn't care - then why try to decieve that person? _"I think it's a marketing issue as companies want to feel they have done something to justify a certain price."_


You have put the onus on the wrong group.

_"I think it's a marketing issue used by companies to allow their customers to justify the higher price they have paid for their watch."_

"It's not an ETA 7750, it's a Omega 1155!


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

lysanderxiii said:


> A few nits to pick...


Thanks! Corrections are exactly what I was hoping for. Maybe somebody will come along with the alloy formula for Anachron too.

ps - I went back and corrected the mistake on brass and bronze


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



Donf said:


> This has confused me for years. If you care/know enough about movements to check out the movement in a prospective purchase, you won't be fooled. If someone doesn't care - then why try to decieve that person? "I think it's a marketing issue as companies want to feel they have done something to justify a certain price.


The list of companies (including watch companies) that do not rebrand entire products or components purchased from others as being their own is very short. Thus I do not see the value of labeling as smoke-and-mirrors a common practice that should be common knowlege for most consumers.

I think there is something to be gained from a comparison of movements showing how manufacturers enhance what is the same basic movement. But the initial message goes well beyond just being informative and attempts to use sensationalism to draw attention to the article. The article really does not need to be inflated with that kind of nonsense - the technical information is interesting by itself.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Not so much a nit, just some more information...

Most movements are not made in all four grades. Just like not all movement come in the low grades, some movements are available in the high grades (Top and Chronometer) .

Most of the manual movements, 2660, 2801, 2801, 6497-1 and 6498-1 are not available in Top and Chronometer grades.

(However, the 6497-2 and 6498-2 are.)

At least one movement is only available in one grade, the 1727-1 only comes in the Top grade.

Of their current line-up, only the 2671, 2678, 2681, 2824-2, 2834-2 and 2836-2 are available in all four grades....


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



John MS said:


> The list of companies (including watch companies) that do not rebrand entire products or components purchased from others as being their own is very short. Thus I do not see the value of labeling as smoke-and-mirrors a common practice that should be common knowlege for most consumers.
> 
> I think there is something to be gained from a comparison of movements showing how manufacturers enhance what is the same basic movement. But the initial message goes well beyond just being informative and attempts to use sensationalism to draw attention to the article. The article really does not need to be inflated with that kind of nonsense - the technical information is interesting by itself.


John: thank you for saying it is interesting enough based on the information alone, but when you see the examples in the next part the title will be explained. Sadly, this is not common knowledge among consumers let alone among watch forum members - and questions come up dozens of times a year.


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## FlyPenFly (May 18, 2009)

Very informative.


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## drewmcd24 (Mar 9, 2010)

Fantastic post! That was really interesting, and I'm looking forward to part 2. Thanks!


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## mparker (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks Dennis :-!


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## Chimi (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks to the OP for a very informative post and to Lysander for adding to the value of it. Looking forward for the second part.


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## scm64 (May 12, 2007)

One of the best posts in weeks. Thanks. Looking forward to part II.


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## ctzn (Mar 14, 2010)

Good stuff here, thanks for imparting some of your vast your wisdom, Dennis :-!


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## bigdubs (Sep 27, 2010)

For a new guy to serious watches like me, this was extremely informative and insightful. Thanks to the OP for posting!


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## 425Ranger (Aug 27, 2007)

Excellent information.


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## Caraptor (Mar 17, 2009)

Ahhh. Thanks for ending the draught, Dennis. Keep it coming. Very informative.


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## rockmastermike (Aug 27, 2009)

good stuff for all, especially for a relative newbie like myself.

if a company uses a 2824-2 - how do we know what grade it is if they don't say?

thanks again


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## Zidane (Feb 11, 2006)

Great post!


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

rockmastermike said:


> if a company uses a 2824-2 - how do we know what grade it is if they don't say?


Good question. The answer is you don't know the grade for sure. Some companies will make that information available (not necessarily easy to find though). For instance, Hamilton uses the Elaboré grade for most of their watches.


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

This is excellent Dennis, thank you. 

I've wondered the same thing as rockmastermike re: if watchmakers don't say, how do you know? (that is if you need to know ;-))

Cheers,
HBL


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## rockmastermike (Aug 27, 2009)

ulackfocus said:


> Good question. The answer is you don't know the grade for sure. Some companies will make that information available (not necessarily easy to find though). For instance, Hamilton uses the Elaboré grade for most of their watches.


before I read this I thought a 2824-2 (for example) was just a 2824-2 and would have been happy....but now there is a "better" 2824-2, well then, I'd like to know what my money is buying, know what I mean. knowledge is a dangerous (and possibly expensive) thing, lol

thanks again


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## v76 (Dec 29, 2009)

Mido uses Elaboré and Top/Chronometer grade ETA2824, 2836 and 7750s in a lot of their watches. They have quite a few COSC-certified models in the Commander, Baroncelli and All-Dial lines. All the watches in their Belluna (male) line are certified.

For unmodified ETA movements only the chronometer (and top?) grades can be COSC-certified, I think.


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Very satisfying original post turning into a nice thread, bravo and look forward to more.


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## DoctorC (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks for taking the initiative to go through this discussion! I enjoy learning some thing new and appreciate your efforts. :-!


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## TristanZ (Jul 2, 2010)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



John MS said:


> Interesting information about the various movement and component grades. However the term *Smoke and Mirrors* is a nice way of describing an intent to deceive.Surely you are not saying that Omega, Breitling, Mido and all the other companies that re-label movements or don't disclose that components are made by others are guilty of deception and maybe fraud?


Quite frankly, given the strength of the in-house movement fetish within the watch collecting community, there really is no need for the companies to deceive; self-deception has already done all the work necessary.


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## TK-421 (Mar 11, 2010)

Just email the model number to any manufacturer and they will tell you the quality leveL of the movement used.


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

Great post- thanks


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

rockmastermike said:


> before I read this I thought a 2824-2 (for example) was just a 2824-2 and would have been happy....but now there is a "better" 2824-2, well then, I'd like to know what my money is buying, know what I mean. knowledge is a dangerous (and possibly expensive) thing, lol
> 
> thanks again


if the 2824 is a higher grade, the watch company will almost always tout it as it's a very positive feature; assume basic grade otherwise .


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## jason_recliner (Feb 2, 2009)

AWESOME post Dennis. The best since "_Is this White Chanel J12 too Feminine?_"

Can't wait for part 2.

|>


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

ulackfocus said:


> rockmastermike said:
> 
> 
> > if a company uses a 2824-2 - how do we know what grade it is if they don't say?
> ...


It is hard to tell a Standard from an Elabore from a Top from a Chronometer grade, but it is possible.

To distinguish a Top and Chronometer grade from the lower grades and themselves:

1) The Glucydur balance has curved spokes the nickel balance has straight spokes. This feature sets the Standard/Elabore from the Top/Chronometer grade.

2) Chronometers will have a serial number on the movement. This will allow you to differentiate the Top from the Chronometer.

To be honest, there are no material differences between the Standard and Elabore grades but, generally speaking decorated movements with nickel balances (straight spokes) will be Elabore grade. This is not 100% reliable, as casing companies can apply decoration, but this is somewhat unusual.



Sean779 said:


> if the 2824 is a higher grade, the watch company will almost always tout it as it's a very positive feature; assume basic grade otherwise .


Not always.....



v76 said:


> For unmodified ETA movements only the chronometer (and top?) grades can be COSC-certified, I think.


A Chronometer grade ETA movement is nothing but a Top Grade movement sent to COSC for certification, and with the required serial number added....


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

v76 said:


> Mido uses Elaboré and Top/Chronometer grade ETA2824, 2836 and 7750s in a lot of their watches. They have quite a few COSC-certified models in the Commander, Baroncelli and All-Dial lines. All the watches in their Belluna (male) line are certified.
> 
> For unmodified ETA movements only the chronometer (and top?) grades can be COSC-certified, I think.


Regarding Mido this excerpt might be of interest (written by Docrwm)



> The Mido technical specifications on their website included the following:
> "Technical characteristics Mido® 1320 calibre (based on the ETA Valjoux 7750) Ø 131/4''' or 30.00 mm, thickness: 7.90 mm, 25 rubies, 28 800 A/H, 165 components, power reserve in excess of 42 hours, INCABLOC and NIVACOURBE shock absorbers, GLUCYDUR balance-wheel, NIVAROX I balance spring, NIVAFLEX NO barrel spring, burnished screws, circular-grained bars, oscillating weight with Côtes de Genève and engraved Mido® logo."
> 
> Here was some information that helped. So, the movement reportedly has INCABLOC and NIVACOURBE shock absorbers, GLUCYDUR balance-wheel, NIVAROX I balance spring, and NIVAFLEX NO barrel spring.
> ...


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Seems crazy we don't get to decide what level of refinement in the movement we're willing to pay for. It's like you find a car whose styling you love but it's underpowered and unrefined with its 6 cylinder engine, but wait, glory be, you can pay extra for the V8. I guess that could only happen when the watch company makes its own movements (not Orient or Seiko), and even then it's either rare or unavailable.

For 2000 watch dollars (somewhat arbitrary amount) it seems to me you ought to expect to be able to choose your engine/movement. I don't like spending $2000 on a watch and having compromises in material/design inside my movement. Not having that option makes watch ownership less involving and deep (as in inside the movement), and makes ownership more superficial. A COSC movement with little positional variation and the best shock protection is an important part of fully appreciating a watch, at least for me. I guess if there were more WIS we might be a market large enough to lobby or even call some shots.


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## igorycha (Dec 10, 2008)

I've told already and telling it now - your posts should be at least "Stick"ed, Dennis. That kind of information and efforts made must not be lost among senseless "what to buy" threads.

Part 2 is going to be sensational, right? I heard lots of tales how ETA movements being improved by big brands, even producing some key parts from exclusive alloys, etc.
Can't wait to see the truth.
Cheers
Igor


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## Dr.Brian (Jan 2, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> Seems crazy we don't get to decide what level of refinement in the movement we're willing to pay for. It's like you find a car whose styling you love but it's underpowered and unrefined with its 6 cylinder engine, but wait, glory be, you can pay extra for the V8. I guess that could only happen when the watch company makes its own movements (not Orient or Seiko), and even then it's either rare or unavailable.
> 
> For 2000 watch dollars (somewhat arbitrary amount) it seems to me you ought to expect to be able to choose your engine/movement. I don't like spending $2000 on a watch and having compromises in material/design inside my movement. Not having that option makes watch ownership less involving and deep (as in inside the movement), and makes ownership more superficial. A COSC movement with little positional variation and the best shock protection is an important part of fully appreciating a watch, at least for me. I guess if there were more WIS we might be a market large enough to lobby or even call some shots.


It is important to remember that ETA does limit their supply and distribution, so even if a company wanted to use a higher grade movement or offer custom upgrades, it's not necessarily available to them. Mercedes will make you, the individual customer, anything you want. ETA will not, unless your buying hundreds of movements at a time. It's only going to get worse. Look at operations like Timefactors. Eddie has projects in the pipeline for years because he can't get the movements he needs in the quantity he needs. I don't think he's in a big hurry either though.;-)


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## drewmcd24 (Mar 9, 2010)

igorycha said:


> Part 2 is going to be sensational, right? I heard lots of tales how ETA movements being improved by big brands, even producing some key parts from exclusive alloys, etc.
> Can't wait to see the truth.
> Cheers
> Igor


Yeah, I'm hoping part two will shed some light on this claim. I've always heard that the 7750s used in some IWC models are so reworked by IWC that it's not even the same movement anymore, but I've never seen any real evidence of this. It would be nice to know what they actually do to these movements.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

drewmcd24 said:


> Yeah, I'm hoping part two will shed some light on this claim. I've always heard that the 7750s used in some IWC models are so reworked by IWC that it's not even the same movement anymore, but I've never seen any real evidence of this. It would be nice to know what they actually do to these movements.


I would like to know also, and it's given IWC a lot of credit for their contribution to the movement, but if it's so "reworked by IWC that it's not even the same movement anymore", then to my mind it becomes an IWC movement which it obviously can't or IWC would be making their own movements.


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## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

Very informative - thanks! Looking forward to the second part.

I've always wondered if there was a way to determine the grade of movement used just by looking at it. If it's COSC certified it'll have the serial number stamped on it, and presumably it'll have the highest quality components. However, it's still not clear to me if the other three grades can be visually distinguished from one another, or if a lower grade might still have bits and pieces from a higher grade.

I have a few watches with the 2824 inside, but only one with a display back. Looking at that watch, I see straight spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protection. Straight spokes should mean Standard and Elaboré, but Incabloc is used on the higher ones? It did earlier state that the Incabloc may be an option on the lower grades. The movement itself is nothing special to look at - looks like a mostly matte finish. But it does run alright - about -1/3 per day. And that's every day, not +9 seconds one day and -10 the next.


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

HilltopMichael said:


> I've always wondered if there was a way to determine the grade of movement used just by looking at it. If it's COSC certified it'll have the serial number stamped on it, and presumably it'll have the highest quality components. However, it's still not clear to me if the other three grades can be visually distinguished from one another, or if a lower grade might still have bits and pieces from a higher grade.
> 
> I have a few watches with the 2824 inside, but only one with a display back. Looking at that watch, I see straight spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protection. Straight spokes should mean Standard and Elaboré, but Incabloc is used on the higher ones? It did earlier state that the Incabloc may be an option on the lower grades. The movement itself is nothing special to look at - looks like a mostly matte finish. But it does run alright - about -1/3 per day. And that's every day, not +9 seconds one day and -10 the next.


You might have answered your own question - Incabloc is offered as an upgrade on the lower 2 grades so your movement is either Standard or Elaboré. Pretty good performance out of it too. :-!

As soon as I have a couple questions answered I'll be posting the second part - and one thing I'm still searching out is IWC's modifications. I know a few of them but would like to know all of them.


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## SolitarySoul (Feb 1, 2009)

Nice compilation of material.

I have to take issue, though, with the "Smoke and Mirrors" statement being used so broadly. I don't doubt that it's sometimes true, especially when movements are decorated just for aesthetics' sake. However, in the case of Omega's 1164, I don't feel deceived one bit.

Omega's version of the 7750:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140442155933&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.com%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dp4712.m570.l1313%26_nkw%3D140442155933%26_sacat%3DSee-All-Categories%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Stock 7750:

ETA Valjoux 7750 Automatic Chronograph Watch movement - eBay (item 140422163997 end time Oct-27-10 10:40:08 PDT)

There's obviously so much additional work done (understanding that it actually takes place on a brethren ETA workbench) that I think the extra $$ is fair (with the caveat that this whole "watch thing" can't really be justified, since our cell phones tackle the basic task of telling time). I suspect that other reputable brands, like IWC, are just, if not more, modified.


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

SolitarySoul said:


> Nice compilation of material.
> 
> I have to take issue, though, with the "Smoke and Mirrors" statement being used so broadly. I don't doubt that it's sometimes true, especially when movements are decorated just for aesthetics' sake. However, in the case of Omega's 1164, I don't feel deceived one bit.
> 
> ...


I think you're in for a let down when you read part 2.


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## bluloo (Nov 24, 2008)

Excellent OP and follow up discussion. 

:-!


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## SolitarySoul (Feb 1, 2009)

ulackfocus said:


> I think you're in for a let down when you read part 2.


I read your PM and I disagree that I'll be disappointed.

Does anyone really think that an Omega 7750, or an IWC 7750, or an ETA Chronometer 7750, or (insert chronometer brand here) 7750, are significantly different? And of course, since Omega and ETA are brothers, everyone knows that both of their 7750's come off the same bench, whether they say Omega or ETA.

If you're going to reveal in Part 2 that Breitling and IWCs, etc, come straight out of ETAs shop as chronometers, too, that shouldn't be all that surprising either. After all, how much can any brand really modify them? This isn't rocket science!

Truth is, it's part of the reason I don't own an IWC Spitfire Chrono, but instead own an Omega Speedmaster Date Chronometer; they both have essentially the same specs and I ask myself, "how different could the 7750s be?" (btw - I LOVE the spitfires, just struggle with the price difference)

Now, if IWC were casing up _base _7750s and calling them "modified", THAT would be news (involving smoke and mirrors and deception).

PS - go Phils!


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## Dr.Brian (Jan 2, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> I would like to know also, and it's given IWC a lot of credit for their contribution to the movement, but if it's so "reworked by IWC that it's not even the same movement anymore", then to my mind it becomes an IWC movement which it obviously can't or IWC would be making their own movements.


I'm sure a great deal of the "heavily modified" part of the movement is simply ordering all the available upgrades from ETA.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Dr.Brian said:


> I'm sure a great deal of the "heavily modified" part of the movement is simply ordering all the available upgrades from ETA.


I wonder if sometimes "heavily modified" might mean simply a higher grade ETA--Elabore or Top :-s.


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## Dr.Brian (Jan 2, 2007)

Didn't Walt Odets do a review of an IWC Chrono waaaay back in the day. I really think he did. I'll have to try to find it. I know that not all of his musings were archived, so we might be out of luck. I certainly didn't save anything from back then.
Edit- perhaps I was just thinking of his VJ7750 review? It's also possible that someone asked him to do one on their Flieger or Dopple and he never did? Long time ago.:roll:
Found it! It was Greg! I knew there was one.
http://www.timezone.com/library/comarticles/comarticles631681571896618891
Enjoy.


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## mattjmcd (Oct 2, 2010)

Standing by for Part Two! Great post. :-!


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## RDubya (Jan 19, 2011)

Excellent post, very informative. Thank you for enhancing my understanding of these movements and for raising awareness of the companies who use them and tweak them to rationalize their prices.


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## Barry H (Oct 1, 2008)

igorycha said:


> I've told already and telling it now - your posts should be at least "Stick"ed, Dennis. That kind of information and efforts made must not be lost among senseless "what to buy" threads. ... Igor


+1. Love this kind of stuff. A joy to read a thread like this. More please...


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

Great article! I can't seem to find Part 2. Has it been released already?


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

sdchew said:


> Great article! I can't seem to find Part 2. Has it been released already?


https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-mirrors-part-2-eta-modifications-upgrades-459866.html


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

Sodiac said:


> Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.


Ceramic is probably too light of a material and may not be as easy to balance precisely. Let's see if lysander comes along and comments though.


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

Sodiac said:


> Here's a question from a novice: if the purpose of the Glucydur balance is to resist deformation from temperature change, would a ceramic balance wheel work? I would think ceramic is even more resistant to movement or deformation from temperature changes.


I would think ceramic has more mass than a metal balance wheel and thats not ideal. Not to mention, ceramics made that fine would be brittle and prone to cracking.



ulackfocus said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-mirrors-part-2-eta-modifications-upgrades-459866.html


Thank you sir!


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Glucydur is a very hard metal, and not only has a low coefficient of thermal expansion, but also resists mechanical deformation better than nickel (the other common balance material.)

As far as ceramics, I think the problem with them is the manufacturing techniques have not been developed to the point where making them is cost effective....


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## mikeweb (Nov 26, 2010)

HilltopMichael said:


> I have a few watches with the 2824 inside, but only one with a display back. Looking at that watch, I see straight spokes on the balance wheel and an Incabloc shock protection. Straight spokes should mean Standard and Elaboré, but Incabloc is used on the higher ones? It did earlier state that the Incabloc may be an option on the lower grades. The movement itself is nothing special to look at - looks like a mostly matte finish. But it does run alright - about -1/3 per day. And that's every day, not +9 seconds one day and -10 the next.


I have a Tissot Le Locle and it has the same thing as you mentioned. Im assuming its because the Le Locle is in the more pricey Tissot lineup. Perhaps Swatch's other midrange brands (ie: Hamilton) are doing the same.


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## SOG (Jun 28, 2012)

Thank you very much for the information ulackfocus, I tried to look up information like this on the internet before, but with no result. (might be a keyword problem)
Anyway, thanks for sharing, it's very useful


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


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## novedl (May 20, 2009)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


We obviously have not been inhabiting, and reading materials from the same forum. Stellar, OK it is indeed ubiquitous, but not exceptionally accurate...laughable at best!

And oh yes....it also hacks;-)


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## Doboji (Dec 21, 2011)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


I find it interesting that you talk about Eterna in your signature... you do know that's where ETA movements originate right?


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Doboji said:


> I find it interesting that you talk about Eterna in your signature... you do know that's where ETA movements originate right?


The one eterna I have is a 1971 eterna matic model with a manufacture movement the 1489k (which isn't an eta) bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Eterna 1489K and I dislike eterna's versions of the 2824 (cal 12824) or eterna version of the 2892 (cal 12892)


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## Doboji (Dec 21, 2011)

I find it interesting how I allow myself to be baited into these conversations... 

A very large, passionate post was typed here.... and then deleted. 

I am now walking away to go play with my kids. 

Bon soir!


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

novedl said:


> We obviously have not been inhabiting, and reading materials from the same forum. Stellar, OK it is indeed ubiquitous, but not exceptionally accurate...laughable at best!
> 
> And oh yes....it also hacks;-)


How many certified chronometers does eta make per year?? Count how many certified chronometer Rolex manufacture per years since the 80's, I think it will give you an indication of who is the unconstested leader in terms of annual production of certified chronometers since 3 decades. Omega is behind Rolex in terms officially certified produced chronometers and Breitling is behind Omega. I know that there are several grade of etas but I can't really compare them to an inhouse movement. Read on the Rolex, Omega, IWC, Zenith and JLC how exceptionally accurate are inhouse movements, maybe its is not without reason that watches powered by them are considered as better than eta powered watches.


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

"Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time."

point is, the little certificate doesn't mean anything, i've got a lot of 7750 and they're all +/-1, that's grand seiko territory 



georges zaslavsky said:


> How many certified chronometers does eta make per year?? Count how many certified chronometer Rolex manufacture per years since the 80's, I think it will give you an indication of who is the unconstested leader in terms of annual production of certified chronometers since 3 decades. Omega is behind Rolex in terms officially certified produced chronometers and Breitling is behind Omega. I know that there are several grade of etas but I can't really compare them to an inhouse movement. Read on the Rolex, Omega, IWC, Zenith and JLC how exceptionally accurate are inhouse movements, maybe its is not without reason that watches powered by them are considered as better than eta powered watches.


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## novedl (May 20, 2009)

georges zaslavsky said:


> How many certified chronometers does eta make per year?? Count how many certified chronometer Rolex manufacture per years since the 80's, I think it will give you an indication of who is the unconstested leader in terms of annual production of certified chronometers since 3 decades. Omega is behind Rolex in terms officially certified produced chronometers and Breitling is behind Omega. I know that there are several grade of etas but I can't really compare them to an inhouse movement. Read on the Rolex, Omega, IWC, Zenith and JLC how exceptionally accurate are inhouse movements, maybe its is not without reason that watches powered by them are considered as better than eta powered watches.


No worries here George, I respect your opinion(shrug of the shoulders and hands slipped into pockets)


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

ETA movements are pretty good. 

I wouldn't put the 7750 in with ETA movements though. They're made by ETA, but they're Valjoux designs and are really a whole different beast than an ETA calibre.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: Seems to be good enough for Thomas Prescher.


georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


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## jilgiljongiljing (Jun 20, 2011)

holy thread resurrection Batman!

I think ulackfocus is gone as well


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

*Re: Smoke and Mirrors - part 1*



John MS said:


> The list of companies (including watch companies) that do not rebrand entire products or components purchased from others as being their own is very short. Thus I do not see the value of labeling as smoke-and-mirrors a common practice that should be common knowlege for most consumers.
> 
> I think there is something to be gained from a comparison of movements showing how manufacturers enhance what is the same basic movement. But the initial message goes well beyond just being informative and attempts to use sensationalism to draw attention to the article. The article really does not need to be inflated with that kind of nonsense - the technical information is interesting by itself.


Just because most brands are being deceitful does not mean that the practice should no longer be considered deceitful. OP is calling it as it is, IMO.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

I just realized how old this thread is. Nice!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

fasthandssam said:


> I just realized how old this thread is. Nice!


FHS, who is that delightful young woman in your animated gif.


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## Brushed Steel (Feb 21, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> FHS, who is that delightful young woman in your animated gif.


Pardon me for butting in, I believe that's Emma Stone. Spiderman's girlfriend. She is awesome.


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## Doboji (Dec 21, 2011)

Brushed Steel said:


> Pardon me for butting in, I believe that's Emma Stone. Spiderman's girlfriend. She is awesome.


Awesomeness is absolutely confirmed.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

She even has a hot name. Excellent.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


It might be true, nonetheless ETA has saved a lot of men from bankruptcy.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

She is a real dame. I saw her at an awards show once and gave her "the nod". She returned it. I'm not saying that I'm a home-wrecker, but let's just say that Spiderman doesn't know everything that's going on in his web.


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## novedl (May 20, 2009)

fasthandssam said:


> She is a real dame. I saw her at an awards show once and gave her "the nod". She returned it. I'm not saying that I'm a home-wrecker, but let's just say that Spiderman doesn't know everything that's going on in his web.


The guy you posted a photo of may be the most talented man in the biz(yes i am a RD Jr. fan;-)
Don Cheadle too.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

It's amazing to me he's a high school dropout. The guy is brilliant.


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## mattjmcd (Oct 2, 2010)

Edward395 said:


> Wonderful post there, Dennis. Great idea, and I laud your effort to share the information/knowledge you have unearthed from your experiences, from reading-up, talking to watchmakers, etc. I really look forward to Part II of this thread!


https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/smoke-mirrors-part-2-eta-modifications-upgrades-459866.html


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## Chazman1946 (Jul 6, 2012)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am glad that I don't own a watch powered by an eta, eta is nothing stellar and nothing exceptional in terms of accuracy or quality.


Guess that leaves out Omega then!


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## bigdubs (Sep 27, 2010)

novedl said:


> The guy you posted a photo of may be the most talented man in the biz(yes i am a RD Jr. fan;-)
> Don Cheadle too.


Have you _seen_ Chances Are and Air America? You might want to reconsider that statement. And I don't even want to think about The Pickup Artist. ~shiver~


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## koimaster (Jul 13, 2007)

As far as the movement information and discussion - A+ thanks. The rest of the gossip MEH


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