# Difference between laco 04 movement and the ETA 2804 movement



## marked

There is certainly a price difference. I'm wondering if anyone can chime in with specifications or features of the laco 04 movement versus the 2804.


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## LH2

Good question. I wish I knew the answer. I think it is the same movement, but I was told Laco "modifies" the movements without specifics as to what exactly these mods are. I didn't get a reply when I asked for more specifics via email.

I think the recent name change was strange. They're calling the movements "Laco movements" which makes no sense.

Diana from Laco used to post here on occasion, maybe she can answer?


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## watchma

Which models are you talking about 

They've recently changed over to other (than ETA) movements for a lot (all?) of their watches and are calling them vague names rather than saying directly they are miyota or sellita for instance


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## StufflerMike

LH2 said:


> Diana from Laco used to post here on occasion, maybe she can answer?


She was out of the office yesterday and promised to chime in asap.


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## blue_quartz

On a related note, I'm wondering what the difference between "Laco 21" and the Miyota, besides the text on the rotor...


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## watchma

I think they've made a conscious decision to use their own nomenclature for the movements from various sources they are using now they can't get so many (if any at all) ETA movements.

I've only glanced round the site recently but I can't find many (any?!) models with ETA movements (and showing the ETA movement number) except some high end/low volume pre-existing models ...
Maybe they just haven't updated all of them?

I wonder if the 04 listed against this https://shop.laco.de/en/Leipzig.html for instance, which used to be a ETA 2804 is just a Sellita Sw200 with the auto components removed ? :think:


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## dokta

Yes,this I would be very much inerested too. I.am happy owner of watch with eta 2804 declared on.the bottom, probably from old stock

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2


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## MichaelKG

I got my Padernborn 42mm a few weeks ago. Upon making my decision I checked their site over and over again just to be sure of my purchase. And now you mentioned it, they did change the name of the movement. 

Luckily my manual say it has a ETA 2824-2 movement. I don't know if I would order one now not knowing which specific movement it has.


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## Laco Pforzheim

Hello,

sorry for not posting earlier, I was out the office until today.

Started from the point, that Laco will release some new models with decorated Swiss movements, blue screws and Logo on the rotor or bridge, we made the decision to give this movements a new name like Laco 50 or Laco 04.

But in fact, that this movements are based on the same movement ( ETA 7750 for example) as we use for other existing models, we decide to engrave our Name on all mechanical movements which we are using. And name them Laco movements, to have a standardized nomenclature.
If you find some mechanical watches in our collection with Miyota or ETA movement, that is why this watches will be sold out in the near future and not be reproduced again.

All mechanical Laco movements are based on Japan or Swiss movements, they all have a high quality control before assembling and after assembling to deserve the name Laco. 
All movements have to pass our quality standard, no question about that, so it does not matter from which supplier in Japan or Switzerland they are from.

Diana


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## dokta

Laco Pforzheim said:


> All mechanical Laco movements are based on Japan or Swiss movements, they all have a high quality control before assembling and after assembling to deserve the name Laco.
> All movements have to pass our quality standard, no question about that, so it does not matter from which supplier in Japan or Switzerland they are from.
> 
> Diana


Hi Diana,
Many thanks for the explanation, so far so clear, means Laco 04 is ETA 2804 decorated with Laco name, which makes sense.

Now pragmatic question - if I want to buy Laco watch with swiss movement in the future, because I may not want the Japanese one, how would I know just based on the name? Will you provide some list of movements origin together with new Laco movement name? For me as a buyer this is important to know.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk HD


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## dokta

MichaelKG said:


> I got my Padernborn 42mm a few weeks ago. Upon making my decision I checked their site over and over again just to be sure of my purchase. And now you mentioned it, they did change the name of the movement.
> 
> Luckily my manual say it has a ETA 2824-2 movement. I don't know if I would order one now not knowing which specific movement it has.


Michael and what is stated on the bottom of the watch? Is there still written ETA or is there already Laco?

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## MichaelKG

What do you mean exactly, on the back of the watch? 

It says "Werk-Bez: ETA".


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## dokta

Yes, that was what I meant. Then your one has ETA movement too.

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2


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## WiZARD7

As you can see on the laco.de site, it sais Laco


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## Horologic

> All mechanical Laco movements are based on Japan or Swiss movements, they all have a high quality control before assembling and after assembling to deserve the name Laco.
> All movements have to pass our quality standard, no question about that, so it does not matter from which supplier in Japan or Switzerland they are from.
> 
> Diana


It matters when there is a large price differential between models. There is no way I'd buy a Laco without knowing whether the movement is Japanese or Swiss ETA, Sellita ETA clone etc.

If the company starts labeling them all "Laco" movements, without anyway to differentiate the actual origin of the movement, it's not good IMO. They all might be reliable, well made movements, but they have different qualities.


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## dokta

Horologic said:


> If the company starts labeling them all "Laco" movements, without anyway to differentiate the actual origin of the movement, it's not good IMO. They all might be reliable, well made movements, but they have different qualities.


I cannot agree more with this. 
I am always interested what movement is inside and if it there is no table with references between Laco code name of the movement and original movement, I hesitate to buy that.
I am happy to have mine with ETA still. Caught that tightly.

Sent from my LT30p using Tapatalk 2


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## watchma

Horologic said:


> It matters when there is a large price differential between models. There is no way I'd buy a Laco without knowing whether the movement is Japanese or Swiss ETA, Sellita ETA clone etc.
> 
> If the company starts labeling them all "Laco" movements, without anyway to differentiate the actual origin of the movement, it's not good IMO. They all might be reliable, well made movements, but they have different qualities.


+1 , glad I bought the various ones I have when I bought - don't think you'll see me at the laco checkout again


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## sci

It doesn't hurt to write as everybody else - "Caliber Laco 24 (Basis ETA 2824)". Without such information, I also share the opinion of *Horologic*


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## Moffett

I personally like the idea of my movement having Laco etched in it, over it saying ETA. I also like the idea of Laco dressing it up a bit. 
I'm not sure that they are trying to pull wool over everyone's eyes selling Miyota movements at ETA prices.


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## dokta

Moffett said:


> I personally like the idea of my movement having Laco etched in it, over it saying ETA. I also like the idea of Laco dressing it up a bit.
> I'm not sure that they are trying to pull wool over everyone's eyes selling Miyota movements at ETA prices.


For sure not today.
But you know today's tough world - noone knows what tomorrow brings and management decisions are sometimes not very logical.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk HD


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## watchma

Moffett said:


> I personally like the idea of my movement having Laco etched in it, over it saying ETA


On the display back Laco's (at least) I got , they do(did) that anyway


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## gthompson34

I have been interested in the 45mm Type B and have been exchanging emails with Diana. Here are some of her answers to me regarding the Laco 04 and Laco 24.


_for the Laco 04 and Laco 24 we use Swiss movement. Sometimes ETA and sometimes from other Swiss company, we modify them with Logo signature and some of them get decoration. We also regulate all of the swiss based movement to an accuracy of -5/+10 sec per day. __For Laco 21 and Laco 15 the base movement is Miyota, decoration and Logo signature is done also by us. Accuracy is -10/+20 sec. per day regulated from our watchmaker._

I followed up this request by asking if I could verify if the Laco 24 was ETA or some other Swiss company. Diana then replied as follows:

_the Laco 24 based on a Swiss movement, not ETA but also a high quality movement with an accuracy of -5/+1ß0 sec.per day._


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## MichaelKG

You could get one with an ETA movement or you could not.




They are dealing with this in a wrong way. You don't even know what you are ordering. It's like ordering a car and you don't even know what engine it will have. Will it have a 2 litre 4 cilinder engine or a 5 litre V8 with a compressor.


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## gthompson34

I agree Michael. I am really turned off by the lack of disclosure. Seems unlike Laco. Am I missing something?


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## StufflerMike

gthompson34 said:


> I agree Michael. I am really turned off by the lack of disclosure. Seems unlike Laco. Am I missing something?


I'd be ok with Laco stating ...fitted with a Laco #, base ETA 2801. Would fully answer my needs. I want to know what I am buying even if I can't see it.


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## CM HUNTER

stuffler said:


> I'd be ok with Laco stating ...fitted with a Laco #, base ETA 2801. Would fully answer my needs. I want to know what I am buying even if I can't see it.


I agree. I can't believe they are making any sales with their current setup. I guess some people are willing to just blindly throw their money at a watch without knowing what they are getting. Would be easy enough and take just a few seconds to say this Laco movement corresponds to this ETA, Miyota, whatever movement. Maybe a drastically diminished supply of ETA movements and having to resort to "lesser" movements but still charging the same money might have something to do with it? Who knows at this point?


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## watchma

I'd like to buy a new car, What sort of engine does it have ?


.....Oh yes it has an engine


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## sci

I hope Laco are reading this thread to hear the voice of the customers.


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## Uwe W.

The status quo is changing and Laco isn't alone in this practice of renaming the movement so that the model can be fitted with what is currently available. You might as well get used to it.


And who do you think that "other" Swiss manufacturer is that produces a movement that drops into a case meant for an ETA? Surely no one would be bent out of shape because their watch was powered by a Sellita instead of an ETA? I wouldn't be, particularly not when looking at the relationship between those two companies, or conversely, when considering where some of the parts within your ETA were made.


"Where's the factory?" is my watchmaker's favorite line, and has been for the past few years, because it's a question he has never been able to get a straight answer to. The global manufacturing phenomenon isn't isolated to the watch industry, so if everyone is going to get this bent out of shape about knowing exactly what is under the hood, they should start looking at many of the other products they buy, cars included.


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## MichaelKG

Hold on. No one is saying they can't use a different movement. The thing is this:


> _for the Laco 04 and Laco 24 we use Swiss movement. *Sometimes *ETA and sometimes from other Swiss company.
> 
> _


If they use a price wise and quality an equally good movement I don't mind or care. But they aren't being open about when they use which. If we wouldn't care about the movement being used why don't they sell the Miyota for 700 euro as well as the ETA model? Meaning, they can ask anything they want even with a lesser movement in the watch.

_
_


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## Uwe W.

MichaelKG said:


> If they use a price wise and quality an equally good movement I don't mind or care. But they aren't being open about when they use which. If we wouldn't care about the movement being used why don't they sell the Miyota for 700 euro as well as the ETA model? Meaning, they can ask anything they want even with a lesser movement in the watch.


Do you think that the Sellita is a cheaper, lower quality movement than its ETA counterpart?


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## watchma

Personally I think Sellita and ETA are on a complete par 

BUT - Laco should explain this new nomenclature for the movements on a 'technical' page - I think everyone would appreciate the openness of that - it's the opaque nature of this 04, 15 stuff that really isn't doing anything for me.

I wouldn't mind if they simply said the 24 (or whatever) movement (for instance) could mean an ETA 2824 or a Sellita SW200 is fitted - I wouldn't mind at all !

I could then make an informed decision on what I'm buying.
By not telling us , they are devaluing both ETA and Sellita in my view currently.



> Laco isn't alone in this practice of renaming the movement so that the model can be fitted with what is currently available


Any examples ?


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## StufflerMike

Uwe W. said:


> Do you think that the Sellita is a cheaper, lower quality movement than its ETA counterpart?


With all due respect but playing with open cards is always the better option than hiding something. Transparency leads to confidence and credibility. Confidence and credibility "sells" and is the basis of a trustfull relationship. I wouldn't buy a watch not knowing what the engine is, even if it is a Laco. Wouldn't have bought my SUV not knowing what exactly is under the hood.


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## dokta

stuffler said:


> With all due respect but playing with open cards is always the better option than hiding something. Transparency leads to confidence and credibility. Confidence and credibility "sells" and is the basis of a trustfull relationship. I wouldn't buy a watch not knowing what the engine is, even if it is a Laco. Wouldn't have bought my SUV not knowing what exactly is under the hood.


Totally agree.
I think we deserve to know, what is inside. It should be openly and transparently said.

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## CM HUNTER

Why does it matter what's powering my watch?... what an odd question. It's not so much a matter of Miyota or Sellita or ETA being equal, it's simply about full disclosure. I'll decide as a consumer if I'm willing to pay more for a Sellita over a Miyota or an ETA over Sellita, that's my right. But making me go at it blind is not right at all.

A better question is.... how hard is it to tell me EXACTLY what I'm getting? That's not the status quo for any other company that I know of.


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## Uwe W.

watchma said:


> Any examples ?


Off the top of my head, I believe Glycine has started doing the exact same thing. But then again, there have been many manufacturers who have given reworked ETA movements their own name for years and also don't disclose in their websites or literature that it's an ETA movement inside. For example, what exactly is a Junghans J800.1? Does it say anywhere on their website what it is? (It might, but I've haven't found it). And yet I'm pretty sure that it's a 2824-2. Would they warn customers if they substituted the ETA with a Sellita, or just continue to call it the J800.1?

There are plenty of other examples of this practice within the industry. And don't think that I'm defending anything here; I'm only pointing out that this isn't some bizarre anomaly before everyone turns up at Laco's front door brandishing pitchforks, clubs, and torches.


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## Uwe W.

stuffler said:


> Transparency leads to confidence and credibility. Confidence and credibility "sells" and is the basis of a trustfull relationship. I wouldn't buy a watch not knowing what the engine is, even if it is a Laco. Wouldn't have bought my SUV not knowing what exactly is under the hood.





dokta said:


> Totally agree. I think we deserve to know, what is inside. It should be openly and transparently said.





CM HUNTER said:


> It's not so much a matter of Miyota or Sellita or ETA being equal, it's simply about full disclosure. I'll decide as a consumer if I'm willing to pay more for a Sellita over a Miyota or an ETA over Sellita, that's my right. But making me go at it blind is not right at all.
> 
> A better question is.... how hard is it to tell me EXACTLY what I'm getting? That's not the status quo for any other company that I know of.


Full disclosure? Transparency? In a global manufacturing market? Good luck with that guys. Okay, so if Laco should be completely transparent about what movement is in their watches, then it stands to reason ETA should also be completely transparent about where each individual component in their movements was made, because after all, if you prize their movements so much shouldn't you know exactly what goes into them? Good luck with that one too.

Using the SUV's engine analogy, do you really know what's under the hood of your car? Of course it will have the manufacturer's engine, and they'll tell you its displacement, some performance specs, but where was it made, and from which grade of materials? I've never seen any manufacturer, not in the watch or automotive industry, provide full disclosure about what exactly is under the hood. It could very well be that the engine in your BMW was assembled from parts that were made in China - the same can be said for your ETA-powered watch - so what is it that we're talking about here exactly?

Again, I'm not defending Laco's business decisions. However, the way I look at it is if Laco states that it's a Swiss movement inside the watch I'm buying then I know it's a movement from one of two manufacturers and it really doesn't matter to me which of the two I'm getting. Why? Because they're comparable in performance, build, and most likely the quality of its components, which according to my watchmaker is not the same metallurgy that Swiss Made once represented.

Ultimately, people will decide on this recent move by Laco with their wallets, fair enough, but whatever they want to call the movements in their watches won't affect my decision to buy them when the company has already stated which models will have Swiss movements, and which will have Japanese.


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## CM HUNTER

J815.1 in Meister HW based off of Peseux and J820.1 in Meister Auto Chronometer based off of Soprod. New for Junghans and fully disclosed. I don't know of any manufacturer doing what Laco is doing which is to say it has a movement in it but not being specific to what movement is in it at any given time.

Like you said and I quote _"However, the way I look at it is if Laco states that its a Swiss movement inside the watch I'm buying then I know it's a movement from one of two manufacturers and it really doesn't matter to me which of the two I'm getting."
_
That's a lot about your personal feelings in that statement, but obviously everybody else in this thread isn't so willing to throw their hands up in the air and say as long as its Swiss its ok. Bottom line is that the customer shouldn't have to guess what movement is in their watch... no matter who manufactures the movement. Period.


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## Flintstone

I think LACO and Stowa should team up and start building Durowe movements to power both their watches...forget everyone else. I'd gladly pay more for this.


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## Moffett

Most automakers have multiple engine manufacturing plants, so maybe the engine in your car was made in America, or maybe it was made in Mexico, that's just the way it is now. I know BMW in particular builds their cars in Germany, America, and South Africa. The dealership doesn't tell you where your car came from when you buy it. That said, I'm not sure how "Mass-Produced" Laco watches are? I doubt that they need a world market to supply their manufacturing process.


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## CM HUNTER

The auto analogy as a comparison to the watch industry is an irrelevant one. Two totally different business models, amount of parts supplied, levels of overhead, and bottom lines. Huge factories churning out billions of dollars of product versus tiny workshops producing a few thousand products a year. Apples to oranges comparison and one that needs to stop showing up on these threads.


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## logan2z

CM HUNTER said:


> I don't know of any manufacturer doing what Laco is doing which is to say it has a movement in it but not being specific to what movement is in it at any given time.


Sinn has started doing the same thing. For example, they've started to use the Sellita SW200 in the U1, but will also use the ETA2824 when supplies are available. Unfortunately buyers will not know which movement they will get when they purchase their watch. The Watchbuys U1 page makes no mention of the movement in the watch. I had a long email exchange with them over this and they said they don't specify the movement because they don't know which it will be, but they considered them completely interchangeable and couldn't understand why anyone would care. I suggested that they put a note on the U1 page describing that the watch may be delivered with either the ETA or Sellita movement so that buyers would be aware of this, but that fell on deaf ears. As others have said, as a buyer I'd like to know what I'm buying. I have nothing against the Sellita movement and have it in my Muhle Glashutte 29er Big. But I knew which movement that watch would be delivered with when I decided to buy. The same should be true when I buy a Laco or Sinn. If the manufacturers don't know up front because of supply inconsistencies then they should simply say that.


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## MichaelKG

Uwe W. said:


> Do you think that the Sellita is a cheaper, lower quality movement than its ETA counterpart?


No and I never said or implied that.


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## Uwe W.

CM HUNTER said:


> The auto analogy as a comparison to the watch industry is an irrelevant one.


Hardly. The watch industry is a +40 billion a year industry, and like other industries such as auto manufacturing, companies outsource the supply of components to improve their bottom line. It's not apples to oranges, it's watches to cars, two consumer products that share a common link in that many of the parts used to create those products are coming from factories located in other countries, such as China.

Of course manufacturers in both of those industries do their best to assure its customers that the quality of those components is on par with those that used to be produced in their own factories. I'm not going to debate those claims, but my watchmaker who has been in the business a very long time will tell you from first hand experience that they aren't the same.

The bottom line is that the Swiss watch industry has for many years conducted business in a certain manner, one that we've all become used to, and judging by what I'm reading here, one that many of you would prefer remain unchanged. However, with ETA's decision to control the supply of its movements the status quo HAS changed, and the short term ripple effect of that change is that watch manufacturers can no longer be certain which movement they'll be able to use from one production run to the next. The only assurance they can provide is that it will have a quality Swiss movement in it. That's good enough for me, but obviously not good enough for others.

So what would you have Laco (and all the other manufacturers) do? Send a little note with each watch stating whether it has the ETA or Sellita inside? Change their website constantly to reflect which movements are currently being sold (how confusing would that be)?


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## logan2z

Uwe W. said:


> So what would you have Laco (and all the other manufacturers) do? Send a little note with each watch stating whether it has the ETA or Sellita inside? Change their website constantly to reflect which movements are currently being sold (how confusing would that be)?


I'd suggest that manufacturers like Laco simply state on their web site that the models with Swiss movements will be shipped containing either an ETA or Sellita movement (or whatever that 'other' Swiss movement is) depending on availability. The buyer then is made aware of the situation and can make an informed buying decision. If he wants to be guaranteed of getting an ETA movement (for whatever reason) he needs to look elsewhere.

In the case of Sinn, Watchbuys told me that they found the Sellita to improve upon the ETA in several ways resulting in better performance. Yet they will still use the ETA 2824 when supplies are available. Makes me wonder why they would choose to use the ETA at all if the Sellita is an improvement and is readily available, unless the Sellita costs more and eats into their profit margin.


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## Uwe W.

MichaelKG said:


> Hold on. No one is saying they can't use a different movement. The thing is this: If they use a price wise and quality an equally good movement I don't mind or care. But they aren't being open about when they use which. If we wouldn't care about the movement being used why don't they sell the Miyota for 700 euro as well as the ETA model? Meaning, they can ask anything they want even with a lesser movement in the watch.





MichaelKG said:


> No and I never said or implied that.


Sorry, my language skills aren't the greatest and I must have misread your previous post.

Laco has stated that in certain designated models that those watches will contain a Swiss movement. Given that there are only two manufacturers that can currently supply those Swiss movements, we know that those Laco models will either use an ETA or Sellita movement. You then complained that Laco isn't being open about which movement they use, and that they "can ask anything they want even with a lesser movement in the watch." When I read this I understood it to mean that you thought Sellita was a lesser movement that wasn't on par with an ETA.

So then what were you saying? That Laco would sell us a Swiss movement watch powered by a Seagull?


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## CM HUNTER

Auto industry and watch industry couldn't be more different. How many parts are on your car in comparison to even your most complicated watch? Again, sheer volume of parts inventory alone is why the automotive companies outsource like they do.... watch companies don't have that excuse.

What should Laco do? They are the ones putting the watches together, therefore they know what's going into them. Especially on their own website it would be simple enough to state that a particular model is going to be equipped with a particular movement... at least for any given time. I mean they can't at least do that? That's not even trying. At least with Sinn, when you go to buy the current Sinn U1, they tell you it's currently using a Sellita... it's as clear as day at Watchbuys right now. They don't all of a sudden call it a Sinn 24 and have you guessing which movement you're going to get.


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## Uwe W.

CM HUNTER said:


> Auto industry and watch industry couldn't be more different. How many parts are on your car in comparison to even your most complicated watch? Again, sheer volume of parts inventory alone is why the automotive companies outsource like they do.... watch companies don't have that excuse.


Excuse? The only excuse any manufacturer - of any product - needs to outsource its parts supply to a country such as China is increased profits. Even if that was the only link between the auto and watch industries - it isn't - it's the one that is relevant to any thread that questions "what's under the hood?"



CM HUNTER said:


> What should Laco do? They are the ones putting the watches together, therefore they know what's going into them. Especially on their own website it would be simple enough to state that a particular model is going to be equipped with a particular movement... at least for any given time.


Simple? For argument's sake, Laco produces a run of 50 watches of a specific model that uses an ETA. As those watches sell out, they order more movements, but have to use Sellita because ETA can't (won't) ship them in time. At what point do they swap the description on their website? Presumably when there aren't any ETA versions left I suppose? And if a few people order the same watch on the same day around the same time? Sounds like a real headache to me.



CM HUNTER said:


> At least with Sinn, when you go to buy the current Sinn U1, they tell you it's currently using a Sellita... it's as clear as day at Watchbuys right now. They don't all of a sudden call it a Sinn 24 and have you guessing which movement you're going to get.


Really? I just had a look at Watchbuys and couldn't find any specifics on the movement being used for the U1. Glycine, as I previously mentioned, just released a new collection called Classic, and they have overnight given those watches their own movement names - no details as to whether it's an ETA or Sellita - just that it's Swiss. And as I've mentioned, others have been doing this for a while now too. Take a look around and you'll see that things are changing in that direction; you may not like it, but that's the way the industry is reacting to the difficult position they've been placed in by ETA. To only blame Laco for this practice is ignoring the bigger picture.


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## logan2z

Uwe W. said:


> Really? I just had a look at Watchbuys and couldn't find any specifics on the movement being used for the U1. Glycine, as I previously mentioned, just released a new collection called Classic, and they have overnight given those watches their own movement names - no details as to whether it's an ETA or Sellita - just that it's Swiss. And as I've mentioned, others have been doing this for a while now too. Take a look around and you'll see that things are changing in that direction; you may not like it, but that's the way the industry is reacting to the difficult position they've been placed in by ETA. To only blame Laco for this practice is ignoring the bigger picture.


Uwe beat me to it. I still see no mention on the Watchbuys site of the movement being used in the U1. The official sinn.de site actually does show the movement to be the SW200 at the moment, however.

-----


*Mechanical Movement*

SW200-1
Self-winding mechanism
26 bearing jewels
28,800 semi-oscillations per hour
Seconds stop function
Shock resistant as per DIN 8308
Anti-magnetic as per DIN 8309



*Case*

Case made of German submarine steel, bead-blasted
Sapphire crystal glass in front, anti-reflective on both sides
Case back screw-fastened
Crown screwable
Water-resistant as per DIN 8310
Pressure resistant up to 1,000 m diving depth (= 100 bar), certified by
Germanischer Lloyd Hamburg
According to the technical demands for the diving norm DIN 8306
Tested based on European diving equipment standards EN 250 / EN14143 and certified by Germanischer Lloyd Hamburg
Low pressure resistant



*Functions*

Hours, minutes, seconds
Date display
Diver's bezel with minute ratcheting and luminous key mark



*SINN Technologies*

Bezel with TEGIMENT Technology, therefore especially scratch-resistant
Captive bezel



*Dimensions and Weight*

Case diameter: 44 mm
Band lug width: 22 mm
Case thickness: 14.3 mm
Weight without strap: 113 gramme



*Dial and Hands*

Matte black dial
Indices coated with luminescent colour
Hour, minute and second hand coated with luminescent colour



*Warranty*

2 years


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## CM HUNTER

Ok, so if an AD doesn't supply the details, then at least you can go directly to the source for details... still more than you can say for Laco.

Comparing a product that's small enough to fit on your wrist versus a product that weighs in excess of 2 plus tons that needs something the size of a garage, and you can't see the difference in why the auto companies have to outsource and the watch companies have no excuse to, is on you. The fact that some, in fact most watch companies do outsource a movement is more to the point. Even more to the point relevant to this thread is that you still know what you're getting and it's not covered up all of a sudden with a generic movement name. It's so easy to throw China into the conversation as a distraction that still doesn't explain why Laco isn't telling you which movement you're getting at any given time. If either or both Sellita and ETA uses some parts from Asia isn't the point of this thread. The lack of knowing EXACTLY what movement is in a watch I want to buy is. If its too much of a headache or overwhelming for Laco to handle, maybe they should hire more people that can keep up with it.... not take a shortcut and just throw something at a potential customer.


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## flyingpicasso

Does changing the nomenclature give the consumer _more_ or _less_ information? Clearly it's less, and that's the bottom line for me. I've never liked it when watch companies rename a movement because it makes it harder for me to evaluate it against my other options. Heck, in a perfect world all makers would give the movement grade as well. I know much of the world doesn't know the difference and/or doesn't care, but there is a hearty group of us who do know and do care and value the nuances accordingly.

Wrong or right, when Laco offers a watch with a "Laco 04" movement I feel like they're trying to hide something, and that makes me much less interested in the watch. I know lots of you don't care either way--to each his own.


----------



## logan2z

IMHO Laco and other companies are making this more complicated than it needs to be. If ETA movement availability is spotty and the Sellita movements are equally good and readily available, then why not simply use the Sellita movement exclusively in the watches with Swiss movements and state that in product descriptions? Seems to make life easier for the manufacturer and takes the ambiguity out of the equation for the buyer. 

What am I missing?


----------



## Uwe W.

logan2z said:


> What am I missing?


Possibly that Sellita's aren't as readily available or that its movements cost more? Or maybe there are contractual obligations with ETA?

I suspect if there was an easy solution to all of this, Laco, and all the other manufacturers experiencing this supply dilemma, would be smart enough to implement it. As is typical with these types of threads, those of us who are busy speculating and telling watch companies what they should be doing aren't in possession of all of the facts.


----------



## CM HUNTER

logan2z said:


> IMHO Laco and other companies are making this more complicated than it needs to be. If ETA movement availability is spotty and the Sellita movements are equally good and readily available, then why not simply use the Sellita movement exclusively in the watches with Swiss movements and state that in product descriptions? Seems to make life easier for the manufacturer and takes the ambiguity out of the equation for the buyer.
> 
> What am I missing?


You're not missing a thing my friend. My feelings exactly. Swatch has been yanking everybody's chain with their idle threats of taking their ball and going home for too long. I say hurry up and run home with it already.

I personally feel like the Sellita movements are actually a little more refined than ETA... they are definately a lot quieter. Between Sellita and Soprod (which is a nicer movement than either Sellita or ETA offerings) the loss of ETA wouldn't be such a huge one. If they are making it that much more of a hassle for watch manufacturers to get their hands on their movements, than I say nice knowing you.


----------



## watchma

flyingpicasso said:


> with a "Laco 04" movement I feel like they're trying to hide something, and that makes me much less interested in the watch. I know lots of you don't care either way--to each his own.


+1

What is wrong with just putting "Watch may contain an ETA xyz or Sellita zyx depending on supply at the time" or something along those lines ?

I'll say again they are devaluing their own watch, ETA and Sellita by trying to cover up the potential source of the movements..



> IMHO Laco and other companies are making this more complicated than it needs to be


+1


----------



## Moffett

Please forgive my ignorance on the subject. 
Why can't watch manufactures like Laco make their own movements? I would prefer if the heart of my watch beat with a "Made in Germany" movement, constructed by the same hands that designed the watch its self.


----------



## watchma

Cos you'd have to add a zero to the price


----------



## Uwe W.

Moffett said:


> Please forgive my ignorance on the subject.
> Why can't watch manufactures like Laco make their own movements?


It takes years of development time and millions of dollars to produce a movement from scratch. Then there's the additional infrastructure that would be required to manufacture those movements - and odds are you'd still be relying on supply of certain components from other contractors. In short, it doesn't financially make sense for a smaller-sized watch manufacturer to build its own movement.


----------



## StufflerMike

> Given that there are only two manufacturers that can currently supply those Swiss movements


Mmmh, there are three. Don't forget Soprod. More expansive but also a possibility. Laco just doesn't order from Soprod. :think:Would like to see them doing just that.


----------



## watchma

stuffler said:


> Don't forget Soprod. More expensive but also a possibility


Do you know how much is the cost difference relatively?

X 1.25 ?

X 1.5 ?

X 2 ?


----------



## StufflerMike

watchma said:


> Do you know how much is the cost difference relatively?
> 
> X 1.25 ?
> 
> X 1.5 ?
> 
> X 2 ?


I don't care but should be about plus 30%-35%. Depends on how much you order and depends where and what other parts are sourced.


----------



## Andy the Squirrel

Why can't laco provide more information about the movements in their watches? Surely a decorated movement would be a huge selling point particularly if they had some photographs of it


----------



## gthompson34

I replied to Diana asking her for some clarification on what Swiss movements they use. Her exact response was: _"we use swiss movements (ETA, Sellita, and DP) in our watches. We use them as they become available. All of them are regulated to an accuracy of -5/+10 sec per day. All have a strict quality control during production and before shipping."_ I have replied asking her if I ordered a Friedrichshafen today could she tell me if the movement was Sellita, ETA, or DP? I'll post her reply once received; likely tomorrow as she is very good at replying. I don't know what DP is. Can someone identify the movement and its quality compared to Sellita?


----------



## watchma

I know the initials don't match but could she mean Dubois Depraz SA ?


----------



## gthompson34

I should have added that I also asked what movement is "DP". I will post her reply.


----------



## watchma

Andy the Squirrel said:


> Surely a decorated movement would be a huge selling point particularly if they had some photographs of it


What's the point if the watch has a solid back ? (which a lot of laco's have)


----------



## gthompson34

Diana's response is below. Can anyone comment on Depa Luxury? Are they similar in quality to Sellita/ETA?

"DP is a movement from a Swiss company named DEPA LUXURY GmbH, it is similar to ETA 2824.2 or SW 200. 
Of course, we know if you order today which movement we used for the production of the last Friedrichshafen. It was the DP movement in this case."


----------



## watchma

Depamovements.com redirects to Signstimemovements.com offers manufacturing high-end mechanical Swiss movements and complications. We offer a large variety of complications based on popular Swiss base calibres and their generics.

Premium Movement catalogue > http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_catalog.pdf


----------



## CM HUNTER

watchma said:


> Depamovements.com redirects to Signstimemovements.com offers manufacturing high-end mechanical Swiss movements and complications. We offer a large variety of complications based on popular Swiss base calibres and their generics.
> 
> Premium Movement catalogue > http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_catalog.pdf


They state two different levels of movement Swiss Made and Economy (you know what that means). Now the question is which one you're going to get inside of your Laco. As we can tell, I wouldn't count on Laco to tell you. I guess the total price of the watch will let you know pretty well which version Depa you're getting.


----------



## watchma

CM HUNTER said:


> I guess the total price of the watch will let you know pretty well which version Depa you're getting.


Naw, when did the retail dictate which movement was inside with any manufacturer ?

All the economy ones are 3Hz 21600 , so if the spec on the finished watch says something other than 3Hz , and most laco spec pages do show the frequency, then they've got to be using the premium models (or the ETA/sellita's)


----------



## CM HUNTER

watchma said:


> Naw, when did the retail dictate which movement was inside with any manufacturer ?
> 
> All the economy ones are 3Hz 21600 , so if the spec on the finished watch says something other than 3Hz , and most laco spec pages do show the frequency, then they've got to be using the premium models (or the ETA/sellita's)


True, what was I thinking? Lesser movement for more money is status quo for some. Rate of movement is a really good indicator.


----------



## gthompson34

I have briefly looked at both the Premium and Economy catalog and don't see a movement that would accommodate a Friedrichshafen; 45mm B-Uhr, Type B, auto. 

Since Diana can point to the specific ETA and Sellita movement caliber #s, I've asked her to provide the DP caliber # and a link to a description of the movement. As I know nothing about DP, I have also asked if she knows of a future batch of Sellita's coming soon.


----------



## watchma

gthompson34 said:


> I have briefly looked at both the Premium and Economy catalog and don't see a movement that would accommodate a Friedrichshafen; 45mm B-Uhr, Type B, auto.


I've only briefly glanced through it for now, but are you saying that because you can only see datewheel movements?
Don't forget they can and do use movements with datewheels (just not showing them in the dial)

I have a swiss handwind laco which clearly uses a datewheel movement, you can hear it click over , just you can't see it


----------



## gthompson34

Yes. An incorrect assumption on my part. Thanks for clarifying. I will now beat my head against a wall. If I only I had an avatar to reflect that. LOL


----------



## StufflerMike

From a press release



> DEPA Offers Two Ranges of Swiss Movements
> 
> Premium Movements, are 100% Swiss made, 100% Swiss movements parts, including Swiss made certificate.


and



> Economy Movements, Swiss made movements, with Far East made Parts, including Swiss made certificate.





> Economy Movements
> Our movements are based on a Chinese caliber we have chosen after exhausting testing for more than 4 years with very hard labor. With our liaison person based in China, trained in our factory in Ticino (Switzerland). He´s supervising the control of every execution of this specific complex job, fallowing every step of our manufacturing delicate guide line process exclusively for us. Our based main plate is also outsourced to a small company in China that is collaborating with us on this project. We supervise our entire manufacturing cycle directly with our Chinese partner and staff, so that the components meet the maximum necessary requirements of accuracy.
> 
> Special care is put in control of the movement hairspring, clearances, roundness and centering of the wheels. At our facility in Switzerland, the components are further inspected one by one before assembly and then finished with other parts of our own production. Additional components are outsourced to other Swiss companies in Switzerland on our behalf.
> 
> At the end of the manufacturing process, all these elements are subject to strict testing for the tolerance and accuracy needed. This way we strengthen our product to meet the necessary Swiss made standard of watch making in quality, in lawful order. Swiss made Certificate of Origins are provided upon request.


Factory is in Ticino according to this statement. However in another statement they say they are loctated in Porrentruy which is not Ticino but Jura.









I wish Laco the best of luck.


----------



## gthompson34

I just got done reading that in the Chinese watch forum. I really wish I would have ordered my Friedrichshafen a few months ago.


----------



## sci

Ah really? If I want a chinese movement I would buy Seagull watch. Dissapointed is the least I would say.


----------



## CM HUNTER

You said it all with your last statement Mike. At this point, I wish Laco the best of luck as well.


----------



## 911C4

So, there is a Chinese sourced "Swiss" movement with 3 Hz instead of Swiss 4 Hz. Or will Laco be using the premium "real" Swiss movement? Large price premium otherwise fore a Chinese/Swiss movement over a similar watch with Japanese movement....

I also feel disappointed with this lack of transparency!


----------



## 911C4

After looking through which movements are offered by DP I cant see any of their premium line movements with central second. So that sets it, or am I wrong?


----------



## MichaelKG

gthompson34 said:


> I just got done reading that in the Chinese watch forum. I really wish I would have ordered my Friedrichshafen a few months ago.


What? Can anyone link me, because I'm a bit clueless now.

So one of the movements being used has the option of an "economy" (Chinese) and a "premium" line (Swiss)?


----------



## CM HUNTER

MichaelKG said:


> What? Can anyone link me, because I'm a bit clueless now.
> 
> So one of the movements being used has the option of an "economy" (Chinese) and a "premium" line (Swiss)?


Yes. The Depa movement. There was a link posted earlier in this thread by watchma that takes you directly to information from Depa. Or, you can Google Depa Luxury to find a link to the Chinese forum.


----------



## Flintstone

Uwe W. said:


> It takes years of development time and millions of dollars to produce a movement from scratch. Then there's the additional infrastructure that would be required to manufacture those movements - and odds are you'd still be relying on supply of certain components from other contractors. In short, it doesn't financially make sense for a smaller-sized watch manufacturer to build its own movement.


That was the point of my earlier post...why do you have to DEVELOP a new movement there are plenty of old movement designs out there that im sure the rights could be bought for. RGM is doing it with some Hamilton movements, Stowa currently owns the rights to Durowe, there is also Bulova and Elgin that made their own movements, all it would take is someone willing to build these movements. Which im sure most would be happier to own.


----------



## Uwe W.

Flintstone said:


> That was the point of my earlier post...why do you have to DEVELOP a new movement there are plenty of old movement designs out there that im sure the rights could be bought for. RGM is doing it with some Hamilton movements, Stowa currently owns the rights to Durowe, there is also Bulova and Elgin that made their own movements, all it would take is someone willing to build these movements. Which im sure most would be happier to own.


There used to be many movement manufacturers, many died off during the quartz wars. Building any off them again isn't as simple as just firing up the old machines and resuming where those manufacturers left off. As for your other examples, if RGM is using "Hamilton" movements, then it's also a Swatch (ETA) sourced movement. And Stowa's Durowe movement is built using a 6498, so again it's an ETA movement.


----------



## CM HUNTER

I'm not sure about RGM, but Tourby uses true American Made vintage Hamilton movements that have nothing to do with ETA/Swatch. I'm guessing RGM does the same.


----------



## Flintstone

Uwe W. said:


> There used to be many movement manufacturers, many died off during the quartz wars. Building any off them again isn't as simple as just firing up the old machines and resuming where those manufacturers left off. As for your other examples, if RGM is using "Hamilton" movements, then it's also a Swatch (ETA) sourced movement. And Stowa's Durowe movement is built using a 6498, so again it's an ETA movement.


Uwe you are correct on the Durowe NOT on the RGM RGM Watch Company

I don't want to ruffle any feathers but I just refuse to believe that only a handful of companies in the world can build movements.


----------



## Uwe W.

Flintstone said:


> Uwe you are correct on the Durowe NOT on the RGM


Hamilton is owned by Swatch. And the Hamiltion watches I own have ETA movements in them. So what is RGM doing then? Using NOS or used vintage movements? If they are, then the supply will be limited and certainly not a long term solution. Other than that, refurbishing old movements is nothing like manufacturing a movement from scratch.


----------



## CM HUNTER

It didn't take Nomos with their automatics, or Damasko with both hand wind and automatic very long to get to full in-house manufacture level (in the grand scheme of things). I think it just boils down to truly having the desire, and capital, to be fully committed to it. I think at this point, especially with Stowa and their back-log of sales, that capital outlay wouldn't be as much of an issue as much as just being totally content with the amount of business they have.

Stowa is at least moving towards better movements away from ETA with the usage of Soprod movements.


----------



## gthompson34

gthompson34 said:


> Since Diana can point to the specific ETA and Sellita movement caliber #s, I've asked her to provide the DP caliber # and a link to a description of the movement. As I know nothing about DP, I have also asked if she knows of a future batch of Sellita's coming soon.


My last email to Laco asking for the DP movement caliber and a status on future Selitta's has gone unanswered. I too am with other members....good luck Laco. But I'm really pissed I didn't get an ETA one several months ago. After careful consideration of Stowa, Laco, Tourby, and a few others, the 45mm size was perfect, the Laco history was perfect, and all I needed to do was pull the trigger. I don't know if I am more disappointed in the DP movement or the smoke and mirrors salesmanship. I guess I could buy a Glahsutte Original. It's just a few dollars more.


----------



## StufflerMike

I asked Diana to chime in as well, no reply yet. Busy or on vacation I guess.


----------



## LH2

I was once a big fan of Laco, but I doubt I'll buy another. Despite a lot of customer concerns in this thread, Laco chose to post one time, in four weeks, and that speaks volumes. 

A manufacturer chiming in on a thread like this, and clearing up confusion or misconceptions, can win customers and sell watches. I don't see how ignoring customer email (or sending vague replies), and this thread, helps Laco whatsoever.


----------



## LI Watch

I've been reading this post intently over the past few days as my latest Laco shipments indeed have "Laco 24" or "Laco 21", etc, printed on the hangtag and box label. I've got 2 pieces of 861753 Friedrichshafen in stock. One caseback is stamped movement "Laco" and the other is stamped "ETA", though both hangtags say "Laco 24". I opened both; indeed, the one stamped ETA has a 2824 inside, and the one stamped "Laco" has a 26 jewel movement with customized rotor, plate stamped DP24 on it.

We'll update our listings over the next few days as to minimize mis-advertising (after all the true ETA ones are sold through)

Thanks
Marc Frankel, Owner
Island Watch


----------



## dokta

LI Watch said:


> I've been reading this post intently over the past few days as my latest Laco shipments indeed have "Laco 24" or "Laco 21", etc, printed on the hangtag and box label. I've got 2 pieces of 861753 Friedrichshafen in stock. One caseback is stamped movement "Laco" and the other is stamped "ETA", though both hangtags say "Laco 24". I opened both; indeed, the one stamped ETA has a 2824 inside, and the one stamped "Laco" has a 26 jewel movement with customized rotor, plate stamped DP24 on it.
> 
> We'll update our listings over the next few days as to minimize mis-advertising (after all the true ETA ones are sold through)
> 
> Thanks
> Marc Frankel, Owner
> Island Watch


Hmm, interesting. Friedrichschafen is watch for 850 eur and this means you get 3hz watch instead of 4 as it used to be, which is not so fair, is it?
Although DP24 is claimed as premium and swiss made, I am sure it is cheaper than ETA.

I think Laco should claim honestly problems with eta movements supply and rather create new line with DP movements maybe for different prices, rather this silent swap.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## sci

The DEPA DP24 is not premium, but economical, based on Chinese movement. You can see its datasheet here:
http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_ECO_catalog.pdf
Otherwise I agree with dokta - not knowing what's inside with such a HUGE difference in characteristics and still with same price is simply not fair. And just imagine in 3-5 years you go to a watchmaker for service (you don't know is it 2824, SW200 or DP24 ... to name a few), he opens it and see some completely unknown thing inside. No experience, no spare parts, nothing - surprise!
P.S.
Ah, I forgot - the DP24 could be distinguished from the sound and second smoothness.


----------



## watchma

> and the one stamped "Laco" has a 26 jewel movement with customized rotor, plate stamped DP24 on it.


If it says DP24 on the movement then a DEPA DP24 is a 2*1* Jewel! , not a 2*6* Jewel 
(unless they've changed the movement dramatically since the ECO catalogue shown)

All the nails were in the Laco coffin for me earlier (personally speaking) in this thread , but that's just tapped one more in for me.

EDIT:



MichaelKG said:


> Luckily my manual say it has a ETA 2824-2 movement





LIWatch said:


> I've got 2 pieces of 861753 Friedrichshafen in stock. One caseback is stamped movement "Laco" and the other is stamped "ETA", though both hangtags say "Laco 24"


Here's a thing ..... Marc, what does the booklet in the box say?, you know ... there's a page where they tick which movement the watch has....... (I'd almost forgot this booklet)

Have they reprinted this to show Laco24 etc, and if not which movement has been ticked?

(If they haven't updated the booklet and are fitting these non-eta movements, that is plain and simple misrepresentation in my eyes.)


----------



## LI Watch

watchma said:


> Marc, what does the booklet in the box say?, you know ... there's a page where they tick which movement the watch has....... (I'd almost forgot this booklet)
> 
> Have they reprinted this to show Laco24 etc, and if not which movement has been ticked?
> 
> (If they haven't updated the booklet and are fitting these non-eta movements, that is plain and simple misrepresentation in my eyes.)


The booklet has been re-printed to have a DP24 shown, and it is checked off. So there is transparency.

"Laco 24" on box tag
"Laco 24" on hang tag
"DP24" printed on movement
"DP24" noted and checked in the instruction manual.


----------



## LI Watch

and I'll follow with another quickie. The 861753 booklet has many ETA and MIYOTA movements, as well as the DP24 (like in my prior post). I took a look at the Paderborn booklet (861749) and all semblance of ETA and Miyota are gone. The only movements available to be checked in this booklet, (what appears to me as the 'new' booklet'), is:
Laco 01
Laco 04
Laco 24
Laco 50
Laco 92
Laco 97
Laco 98

So all the options are there for the future.

Marc


----------



## CM HUNTER

So an AD is taking it upon themselves to show some sort of transparency with Laco watches because Laco can't/won't... that's commendable by the AD, but pretty bad that they are the one's having to do it. 

Thing is though, if Laco is offering those Depa based models for the same cost as they were when you were getting an ETA (and it looks like they are) I don't see this or any other AD selling very many.


----------



## watchma

Laco 01 - handwind ETA2801 or a clone?
Laco 04 - handwind ETA2804 or a clone? 
Laco 24 - automatic ETA2824 or a clone?
Laco 50 - chrono ETA7750 or a clone?
Laco 92 - automatic ETA2892 or a clone?
Laco 97 - handwind ETA6497 or a clone?
Laco 98 - handwind ETA6498 or a clone?

Am I close ? - anyone else got any suggestions/omissions otherwise?
(I can't be bothered lining these up with the DEPA models as I won't be buying any )



> So an AD is taking it upon themselves to show some sort of transparency with Laco watches because Laco can't/won't... that's commendable by the AD, but pretty bad that they are the one's having to do it.


It's a bit off how they left the dealer to work things out for themselves ?


----------



## Moffett

I remember asking Mark about this when I bought my Paderborn a few weeks ago. My watch tag and booklet did indeed show my watch as having a Laco 24 movement. The back plate of my watch has ETA stamped on it though. Is there a way I can remove the backing plate and look / take pictures of the movement and reinstall it easly and trouble free? I'm curious if it is the old design or the updated Laco design.


----------



## SParis

I own watches with both the ETA 2824 and the Sellita SW200. Both have a history of craftsmanship and reliability, and I wouldn't really care which I got, although as a matter of courtesy and transparency I would expect the manufacturer to tell me which I was going to get before I purchased.

This DEPA thing, however, is a different kettle of fish. In the best possible case, if Laco is using the "Premium" one, (and they haven't really been forthcoming about that) you're getting a 2824 clone made by a Swiss company that no one has heard of, with no track record at all. It may be very good. Or not. Who knows? Apparently they whipped up a movement factory in a fairly short time, and without much publicity.

There are lots of potential failure points in a movement that have to do with execution rather than with the design.

I'm not a Laco aficionado, and I read this thread with only mild interest until I looked up the Friedrichschafen, and discovered that it's a $1000 watch! Not a chance they'd get $1000 from me for an unknown movement, Swiss or not.

I agree with Dokta, above. It would have been a good marketing move to introduce this movement as the exclusive engine for a $400 or $500 piece. Bring it out with fanfare: "All new. Premium DEPA movement, exclusive to the new Sofia pilot watch." Or re-engine an existing lower priced model, again with fanfare. Sell them for a while, see how they perform, and build a reputation.

The path Laco chose, sneaking a mystery movement into a fairly high-end product, (without even telling their ADs) is dishonest, and damages their reputation.

I own one Laco product, a Black Auto 42. It was inexpensive, largely because of its Miyota movement. I don't think I'll be considering any more expensive Lacos until they decide what kind of product they intend to sell.


----------



## 911C4

Apparently Laco is active on this WUS, but it's very quiet. Would be interesting to know how/what they are thinking on the matter. It's also quite interesting to know if they really think anyone would consider a movement were Laco decorated the rotor as in-house?


----------



## watchma

911C4 said:


> Apparently Laco is active on this WUS, but it's very quiet. Would be interesting to know how/what they are thinking on the matter?


From their subsequent silence on the matter they've said all I need to know


----------



## CM HUNTER

watchma said:


> From their subsequent silence on the matter they've said all I need to know


+1


----------



## Horologic

I'd buy one of the Miyota watches. I'd be leery of the latest bead blasted straight lug case Lacos. I guess Sellita is a close equivalent to ETA but these DEPA movements sound like a joke since Laco charges 2x for them, justifiable when you're guaranteed a real Swiss movement, but hard to swallow if you get an fl23883 with a DEPA Chinese sourced movement. I know the blue steel hands and gray case aren't that expensive to manufacture, alone they don't justify twice the price of the Miyota pilot watches. It was the ETA movement that really justified the price and now they aren't available and it seems Laco is trying to use a cheaper substitute. If it turns out DEPA is putting Chinese movements in those watches, Laco needs to knock a few hundred off the retail price. They aren't worth twice as much as the Miyota pilot watches.


----------



## StufflerMike

This came to my mind:

"Oh don't it hurt deep inside
to see someone do something to her
oh don't it pain to see someone cry
oh especially when someone is her

Silence is golden....."

(Four Seasons, Tremeloes)


----------



## SParis

Oh, and just to drive another nail in the automobile analogy: (I'll be brief.)

If you buy a Ford with a 2-liter engine, you get a Ford 2-liter engine. Parts may be made in different places, the engines may be assembled in different places, but in the end, all Ford 2-liter engines of a given model are identical. All the parts are interchangeable, the engines themselves are interchangeable. Maintenance procedures are identical.

Building a car with the Laco procedure would result in some vehicles with a Ford engine, some with Renault engine, some with a BMW, all of them pretty similar, but not identical. Some would inevitably be better than others. That's just not how it works. The analogy doesn't hold up.


----------



## SParis

watchma said:


> From their subsequent silence on the matter they've said all I need to know


Hard to imagine what they would say.

"Oops"?


----------



## watchma

stuffler said:


> Silence is golden....."


but don't forget the song ends:

but my eye's still see...
..but my eye's still see.............


----------



## Porsena

Sad thread.
I was going to get a Laco Leipzig 42 mm handwinding today but when I saw Laco 04 I was concerned. When I scoured for further information and came across a blank I went here and well it is somewhat concerning to say the least. 
I will not be buying a Laco is all I can.


----------



## Laco Pforzheim

Dear friends of LACO,

*Commitment to quality and tradition.*

In order to emphasize the identity of the brand LACO and to meet our customers quality-requirements, the mechanical movements have been labelled consistently as part of our development.
The LACO engraving on the rotor and the bridge gives a LACO watch its high precision quality seal -Made In Germany. 
Additional finetuning of the chronometry by our watchmakers perfects each LACO timepiece.

Consequently we have renamed our movements, which are limited to the well known brandnames ETA, Sellita and Miyota.

LACO 01 = ETA 2801.2
LACO 04 = ETA 2804.2
LACO 15 = Miyota 9015
LACO 21 = Miyota 821A
LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200
LACO 50 = ETA 7750
LACO 92 = ETA 2892A2
LACO 97 = ETA 6497
LACO 98 = ETA 6498

Our experienced watchmakers as well as strict quality control insure LACO quality at the highest level.

Yours faithfully,

Andreas Günther
(Managing Director)


----------



## CM HUNTER

Took way longer than it should have to get some information, but better late than never I guess. Strange that Laco skirted the whole DEPA movement usage. Maybe they actually don't use any, but it sure did show up in this thread somehow (a quote straight from Diana no less) and now, all of a sudden it just disappears from it... who knows? If what they say in their response is the way it is, then Laco is on my radar again, but unfortunately, without mentioning DEPA at all, there's still a ? for me.


----------



## logan2z

CM HUNTER said:


> Took way longer than it should have to get some information, but better late than never I guess. Strange that Laco skirted the whole DEPA movement usage. Maybe they actually don't use any, but it sure did show up in this thread somehow (a quote straight from Diana no less) and now, all of a sudden it just disappears from it... who knows? If what they say in their response is the way it is, then Laco is on my radar again, but unfortunately, without mentioning DEPA at all, there's still a ? for me.


This was just sent to people on the Laco mailing list as well. Glad to see a response to the concerns, although I agree that the whole DEPA thing is a bit weird.


----------



## watchma

> Took way longer


This !



logan2z said:


> This was just sent to people on the Laco mailing list as well. Glad to see a response to the concerns, although I agree that the whole DEPA thing is a bit weird.


The newsletter info is ok for existing customers, but I think it should be on the website somewhere too , so that prospective customers can refer to what laco movement model number equates to actual industry movement model number fitted.

Like a technical info page...

I was browsing a website the other day and noticed at the bottom of the particular watch page: Cal:xyz123 (based on/derived from a ETA2824)
Can't remember the site , but this works for me - I know what I'm getting

The choice is Laco's of course  - but after seeing their response on here I think they must have thought it necessary to clarify to 'us' so the same should hold for prospective new customers, they're gonna want to know what a Movement21 (for instance) actually means.. (Pretty much anyone who's spending this level of money on a watch is going to want to know.)

I too am very still unsure on what role Depa play in Laco's business :think::-s...
Do they act as a movement brokerage to source genuine ETA and Sellita and Miyota movements ?
Or do they manufacture the (some) movements for Laco ?

Was Diana just misinformed ? or blabbed a word or two too far ??:rodekaart


----------



## celtics1984

Can someone explain how watch 24 movement explanation works? You either receive a watch with an eta or selitta movement? Am I missing something.


----------



## watchma

celtics1984 said:


> Can someone explain how watch 24 movement explanation works? You either receive a watch with an eta or selitta movement? Am I missing something.


Due to sourcing problems now, Laco (like others) can't be 100% sure which movement they can source at time of manufacture, whether it be a sellita or an ETA, so they decided to add a level of internal model number so they can slot in whichever they can source at the time without recrimination and without having to track particular movements through the system and mark each watch individually.
A laco 24 (for instance) can end up being either ETA or Sellita depending on what they source at the time.


----------



## mthdr

New here,

I've only recently become a pilot (PPL, training for commercial now) and decided to treat myself to a proper watch. I've never bought a watch before, not even a £10 one. After looking at all various types (wizz-wheels, UTC, etc.) I decided one that was dead easy to read and simple was the best for use in an aircraft.

I really had my heart set on the Paderborn and was put off a bit by reading about this. I found one (the last one) on amazon.co.uk for £516, which was the cheapest I found anywhere (even from Laco) and it was listed as having the ETA movement. I took a chance as I figured I'd return it if wasn't marked ETA. I'm keeping it as both tags and the watch say ETA. 

It really is a lovely watch.


----------



## watchma

mthdr said:


> New here,
> 
> I've only recently become a pilot (PPL, training for commercial now) and decided to treat myself to a proper watch. I've never bought a watch before, not even a £10 one. After looking at all various types (wizz-wheels, UTC, etc.) I decided one that was dead easy to read and simple was the best for use in an aircraft.
> 
> I really had my heart set on the Paderborn and was put off a bit by reading about this. I found one (the last one) on amazon.co.uk for £516, which was the cheapest I found anywhere (even from Laco) and it was listed as having the ETA movement. I took a chance as I figured I'd return it if wasn't marked ETA. I'm keeping it as both tags and the watch say ETA.
> 
> It really is a lovely watch.


Good buy


----------



## brainless

Laco Pforzheim said:


> Dear friends of LACO,
> 
> *Commitment to quality and tradition.*
> 
> In order to emphasize the identity of the brand LACO and to meet our customers quality-requirements, the mechanical movements have been labelled consistently as part of our development.
> The LACO engraving on the rotor and the bridge gives a LACO watch its high precision quality seal -Made In Germany.
> Additional finetuning of the chronometry by our watchmakers perfects each LACO timepiece.
> 
> Consequently we have renamed our movements, which are limited to the well known brandnames ETA, Sellita and Miyota.
> 
> LACO 01 = ETA 2801.2
> LACO 04 = ETA 2804.2
> LACO 15 = Miyota 9015
> LACO 21 = Miyota 821A
> LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200
> LACO 50 = ETA 7750
> LACO 92 = ETA 2892A2
> LACO 97 = ETA 6497
> LACO 98 = ETA 6498
> 
> Our experienced watchmakers as well as strict quality control insure LACO quality at the highest level.
> 
> Yours faithfully,
> 
> Andreas Günther
> (Managing Director)


Hello Mr. Günther,

many thanks for clearing the situation about movements mounted by LACO.
As I don't find any DP / DEPA movements mentioned, am I right that you don't use them in any of your watches?
The pedigree of these movements seem to be, let me say, "ominous" and confuses people here.

I'm looking forward to your comment - hopefully we don't have to wait as long as we did for the last official feedback from Laco.

Best regards,

Volker ;-)


----------



## brainless

......


> 3 Days Ago


----------



## Moffett

Laco Pforzheim said:


> Consequently we have renamed our movements, which are limited to the well known brandnames ETA, Sellita and Miyota.


I think your question has already been covered.


----------



## StufflerMike

Moffett said:


> I think your question has already been covered.


Don't think so. The DEPA thing isn't clarified (see Diana's posts). DEPA states "We offer two different quality standards for movements, which makes it possible to answer to almost any demand on mechanical watches. Swiss made class and *economy class*. I'd like to see LACO stating that movements they source are all swiss made class if sourced from DEPA. If DEPA for example states " 2836-2 or generic " does "generic" include chinese clones or not ? Just a simple clarification imho.


----------



## Moffett

I haven't ever seen a post by Laco stating that they use a DEPA movement. As I tried to point out in my quote it specifically states that only ETA, Sellita, and Miyota movements are used in their watches. 
Am I missing something?


----------



## StufflerMike

Quotes from e-mails Diana sent out in answering customer questions and as far as I know Diana is still a member of the team:



> .... "we use swiss movements (ETA, Sellita, and DP) in our watches. We use them as they become available. All of them are regulated to an accuracy of -5/+10 sec per day. All have a strict quality control during production and before shipping."





> "DP is a movement from a Swiss company named DEPA LUXURY GmbH, it is similar to ETA 2824.2 or SW 200.
> Of course, we know if you order today which movement we used for the production of the last Friedrichshafen. It was the DP movement in this case."


If you do not trust our member and/or Diana - I do.


----------



## gthompson34

You beat me to it Mike. Thanks. 

Those emails from Laco were sent to me. And they are exact quotes based on my eight or so emails trying to find out what is a Laco 24, which is the movement advertised to be used in a Friedrichshafen, 45mm Type B, auto. Emails that I found were trying not to answer the direct question - what is a Laco 24?

I find it incredibly deceiving to respond to the forum but fail to mention the DEPA issue. I can only make assumptions without a Laco response. So here is my assumption: Laco had previous decided to charge the same for a Laco Friedrichshaften (and others) but make more money by using cheap chinese DEPA movements. And to hide the fact they were not using ETA or Sellita they decided to engrave Laco on the movement and call it "Laco 24". And now, after this thread has identified their ruse, Laco has decided to stop using DEPA. And conveniently fail to mention DEPA in their response to the issue.

Maybe a bit heavy on the conspiracy theory, but without a Laco response what else am I supposed to do when deciding to buy a Laco or not?


----------



## CM HUNTER

gthompson34 said:


> You beat me to it Mike. Thanks.
> 
> Those emails from Laco were sent to me. And they are exact quotes based on my eight or so emails trying to find out what is a Laco 24, which is the movement advertised to be used in a Friedrichshafen, 45mm Type B, auto. Emails that I found were trying not to answer the direct question - what is a Laco 24?
> 
> I find it incredibly deceiving to respond to the forum but fail to mention the DEPA issue. I can only make assumptions without a Laco response. So here is my assumption: Laco had previous decided to charge the same for a Laco Friedrichshaften (and others) but make more money by using cheap chinese DEPA movements. And to hide the fact they were not using ETA or Sellita they decided to engrave Laco on the movement and call it "Laco 24". And now, after this thread has identified their ruse, Laco has decided to stop using DEPA. And conveniently fail to mention DEPA in their response to the issue.
> 
> Maybe a bit heavy on the conspiracy theory, but without a Laco response what else am I supposed to do when deciding to buy a Laco or not?


Conspiracy or not, I'm more inclined to agree with your hypothesis. Besides, it makes totally good sense to me that this is what happened. One rep saying one thing, yet the other completely ignoring it... like they don't ever communicate with each other. I think you've nailed what has happened squarely on the head, and without anybody from Laco coming straight out and clearing things up, you simply have to draw your own conclusions anyway.

Frankly, with all of the shadiness that has taken place up to this point, even if they stated they changed their mind about using DEPA, it's a little too late for me. No way I could support a company that "plays around" so much with their product behind closed doors, and keeps those same doors closed to their inquiring potential customers.


----------



## Flintstone

> I find it incredibly deceiving to respond to the forum but fail to mention the DEPA issue. I can only make assumptions without a Laco response. So here is my assumption: Laco had previous decided to charge the same for a Laco Friedrichshaften (and others) but make more money by using cheap chinese DEPA movements. And to hide the fact they were not using ETA or Sellita they decided to engrave Laco on the movement and call it "Laco 24". And now, after this thread has identified their ruse, Laco has decided to stop using DEPA. And conveniently fail to mention DEPA in their response to the issue.


Not to heavy at all. This is precisely what happened. Until I hear that NONE of their watches contain leftover DEPA's from their brief foray, with them, I will continue to wait to purchase another.


----------



## dokta

Flintstone said:


> Not to heavy at all. This is precisely what happened. Until I hear that NONE of their watches contain leftover DEPA's from their brief foray, with them, I will continue to wait to purchase another.


Yes, that would be interesting to find out,that some of Laco models left factory with Depa, that would confirm this theory.
Or, as I wrote in this thread few posts back - maybe now to make people used to that naming always ETA will be used, but then, after people get used to these conventions and noone will challenge, some management decision will be made to alter with depa due sourcing issues, or whatever other serious reason.

Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## brainless

CM HUNTER said:


> Conspiracy or not, I'm more inclined to agree with your hypothesis. Besides, it makes totally good sense to me that this is what happened. *One rep* saying one thing, yet *the other* completely ignoring it... like they don't ever communicate with each other. I think you've nailed what has happened squarely on the head, and without anybody from Laco coming straight out and clearing things up, you simply have to draw your own conclusions anyway.
> 
> Frankly, with all of the shadiness that has taken place up to this point, even if they stated they changed their mind about using DEPA, it's a little too late for me. No way I could support a company that "plays around" so much with their product behind closed doors, and keeps those same doors closed to their inquiring potential customers.


If we identify "*One rep*" as Diana, who said they used DP mvts. and "*the other*" as Mr. Günther, who explained to use only ETA, Miyota and Sellita mvts., you are totally right.
That is a result of bad or non existing communication - usually.
But Mr. Günther is Managing Director, Head of Company.................

It seems I'm not the only one being confused by this company's policy :-s,

Volker


----------



## StufflerMike

Yep, however there is the possibility they source 100% ETA/Valjoux, Sellita made movements from DEPA (not directly from the source though) due to the market bottleneck we already read and heard about. But if so just one word would be satisfactory for the customer methinks.


----------



## Moffett

Perhaps there were DEPA movements being installed for testing purposes that were never for sale? I may be an ignorant fool. But I feel like if the head of the company tells us they don't use DEPA movements in their watches, I feel like you aren't going to find any out in the open world.


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## StufflerMike

I am not saying you are a fool but to ignore what Diana answered is strange.



> "DP is a movement from a Swiss company named DEPA LUXURY GmbH, it is similar to ETA 2824.2 or SW 200.
> *Of course, we know if you order today which movement we used for the production of the last Friedrichshafen. It was the DP movement in this case[/]."*


*

So DEPA movements have been mounted and were sold within the last batch of the Friedrichshafen.*


----------



## brainless

.......


> 4 Days Ago


----------



## CM HUNTER

brainless said:


> .......


.... and counting .....


----------



## brainless

Moffett said:


> Perhaps there were DEPA movements being installed for testing purposes that were never for sale? I may be an ignorant fool. But I feel like if *the head of the company tells us they don't* use DEPA movements in their watches, I feel like you aren't going to find any out in the open world.


Hi Moffet,

no, he *didn't tell us *they don't use those movements: He not even mentioned DP.
Today is DAY 4 after my post asking him to confirm that they didn't use DP mvts........
I own LACO watches - but to purchase any more I'm too worried now.

Curious to hear news from Pforzheim,

Volker ;-)


----------



## Anxietyprone

I do not want to accuse anyone of being naïve or Pollyannaish, but this is the watch industry we’re talking about, whether German or Swiss. Much of this “expectation” argument along this post seems ill informed and based solely on how the Swiss watch industry has sold the perception of the Swiss watch quality to the public. According to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry, for a watch to be labeled “Swiss Made” 50% of the components of the movement should be manufactured in Switzerland. That means that the other 50% of the movement can be made in my grandmother’s garden. Really? 
Has anyone seen evidence-based proof that a Swiss movement is really more accurate or reliable than a Japanese or Chinese movement? Shouldn’t we as consumers or collectors hold accuracy and reliability as the gold standard for quality? If so, then what is the standard we use to declare that a Swiss movement has higher quality than a Japanese movement? Has this reality been created by marketers. Seiko manufactures a $5000 stainless steel Premiere level watch. It has an automatic movement and is as accurate and reliable as they come. Try and justify that purchase to the general public. 
The watch industry has a long and dramatic history of self-serving, competitive and paranoid secrecy. It is a cultural approach to their business, which supports a valid, functional and sustainable business model. I’m shocked when I read Diana being mentioned in a post because I’m shocked but completely pleased that the outside world knows the name of any watch industry employee. I’ll stop here. Do I place more value on a Swiss made movement in my Laco watch? Yes. Should Laco and ALL other watch makers be forthright and transparent? Yes. Are they? Lets wait and see. I hope so.


----------



## CM HUNTER

Anxietyprone said:


> I do not want to accuse anyone of being naïve or Pollyannaish, but this is the watch industry we're talking about, whether German or Swiss. Much of this "expectation" argument along this post seems ill informed and based solely on how the Swiss watch industry has sold the perception of the Swiss watch quality to the public. According to the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry, for a watch to be labeled "Swiss Made" 50% of the components of the movement should be manufactured in Switzerland. That means that the other 50% of the movement can be made in my grandmother's garden. Really?
> Has anyone seen evidence-based proof that a Swiss movement is really more accurate or reliable than a Japanese or Chinese movement? Shouldn't we as consumers or collectors hold accuracy and reliability as the gold standard for quality? If so, then what is the standard we use to declare that a Swiss movement has higher quality than a Japanese movement? Has this reality been created by marketers. Seiko manufactures a $5000 stainless steel Premiere level watch. It has an automatic movement and is as accurate and reliable as they come. Try and justify that purchase to the general public.
> The watch industry has a long and dramatic history of self-serving, competitive and paranoid secrecy. It is a cultural approach to their business, which supports a valid, functional and sustainable business model. I'm shocked when I read Diana being mentioned in a post because I'm shocked anyone knows the name of any watch industry employee who communicates with the outside world. I'll stop here. Do I place more value on a Swiss made movement in my Laco watch? Yes. Should Laco and ALL other watch makers be forthright and transparent? Yes. Are they? No. Is anyone surprised? Not me.


If you've been hanging around the German watch forum for any length of time, then you would be surprised. The fact that we mentioned Diana's name should have told you something right there. This isn't a watch forum full of huge corporate watch brands like the typical Swiss ones. This is the Laco forum, a German watch brand and part of the German watch community. Here, representatives (usually the owners themselves) from Neuhaus, Tourby, Stowa, Muhle, etc... will pop in and inform the community about things or clear up any situations. Just another thing that separates the German watch forum from the rest and makes it so great. Hence the reason that this thread is such a big deal.... the USUAL transparency that we are used to from Laco has all of a sudden disappeared.


----------



## StufflerMike

Anxietyprone said:


> I'm shocked when I read Diana being mentioned in a post because I'm shocked anyone knows the name of any watch industry employee who communicates with the outside world.


I am completely missing your point here :think: This is the Official Laco Forum and Diana as well as Mr. Günther, both working for Laco, one of them being the CEO of LACO, are co-moderators as Uwe an I. No secret. So mentioning Diana is nothing to be shocked about. 
Same with Jörg Schauer on Stowa, same with the Ickler crew on their Archimede Forum elsewhere on the world wide web. Tourby is a sponsor here and also chiming in from time to time.


----------



## Laco Pforzheim

Dear LACO Friends and Customers,

It was recently brought to my attention that there are concerns regarding the movements that are being used in our watches. In particular, questions have been raised with respect to our use of DEPA watch movements.

With the growing difficulty of maintaining a consistent supply of ETA movements, LACO decided to closely examine DEPA movements. We conducted extensive testing of these movements to ensure that they would meet LACO’s stringent quality standards, a process that represented a large investment in both time and money.

Satisfied with the quality and performance of the DEPA movement, we decided to use them for a small production run of LACO watches. Unfortunately, it was not until after the delivery of these watches had commenced that we discovered a number of our customers wouldn’t accept the movement because they were unfamiliar with it.

It was for this reason that we decided to suspend the use of the DEPA movement and will instead continue to use ETA movements in our watches.

The entire LACO team is very proud of the quality and unique character that define every watch that we produce, so it is understandable that we are very disappointed by, and strongly reject the speculative accusations that were recently made claiming LACO uses cheap Chinese movements in its watches. This matter will be addressed accordingly in future communications. 

Best regards,


Andreas Günther


----------



## StufflerMike

Thank you very much Andreas for clearing up the issue and giving us the assurance we have been looking for.
Point is very clear and taken methinks.


----------



## watchma

Personally I don't think the point is made very clear at all

Seems to me it's confirmed now that there _are _a number of models (small or not) out there that DO have the DEPA movement in them.

Seems also to me that its like getting blood out of a stone as to precisely what went on?, what models _were_ affected? (brief though it might have been), what DEPA movement was indeed used?

To regain customers trust, complete transparency is everything - and there is still stuff being held back


----------



## StufflerMike

I thought (only) the Friedrichshafen was de facto affected ?


----------



## watchma

stuffler said:


> I thought (only) the Friedrichshafen was de facto affected ?


Who knows ? - only Laco at this stage.

The Friedrichshafen was only brought to light by Diana mentioning it in that email _"we know if you order today which movement we used for the production of the last Friedrichshafen. It was the DP movement in this case"
_

Only Laco at this point know the full extent of use of this movement, it's been spilled out into the public domain , so in my view they need to be scrupulous in making it clear when and where this non-usual movement was used.
I expect they'll come back with "Oh yes only in the Friedrichshafen" :-x


----------



## Moffett

Great to hear from Laco. I'm happy to know that they do listen to their customers and will make a decision to alter there production to appease concerns. Hopefully one day after DEPA has had some time to shine through with a legacy of creating quality movements, they will be more well received by the WIS enthusiasts. I feel that until that time it is a less desirable pice of equipment and holds a much lesser value than that of its more well known competition. I am proud of my Laco watch and I am happy to strongly suggest your brand to anyone that is looking to purchase a watch in the future.


----------



## Uwe W.

watchma said:


> Seems to me it's confirmed now that there _are _a number of models (small or not) out there that DO have the DEPA movement in them.


Sounded like one model was involved to me. Herr Günther mentioned it was used in _a_ production _run_, not _runs_.




watchma said:


> what DEPA movement was indeed used?


The higher quality one. It was specified that LACO would never try to pass off Chinese movements as something else.



watchma said:


> To regain customers trust, complete transparency is everything - and there is still stuff being held back


Based on the number of harsh and baseless comments made in this thread, it's possible that I'm in the minority when I say that I never lost trust in the company. LACO manufactures quality watches. Period. And the people responsible for designing and manufacturing those watches are a conscientious group who take pride in what they do, and are keenly aware of the importance of maintaining their outstanding reputation. To suggest that they would simply lower their standards and _try_ to swindle watch buyers for the sake of making a fast buck is an argument that makes no sense whatsoever. Does anyone here honestly think that they would risk everything on selling watches with sub-standard movements installed in them?

And if the big boss at LACO tells me that his team have carefully scrutinized the use of DEPA movements as a solution to the dwindling availability of ETA movements, and that they found them to be a satisfactory replacement - one worthy to be cased in a LACO watch - then that works for me. I'm not fixated on the ETA name, and quite frankly would be happy to see other movements being used instead.

As for the "stuff still being held back," Herr Günther did write that there would be more forthcoming on the subject. I suspect he's an extremely busy man who will have more to say when time permits.

I've mostly stayed out of this thread because I was angered by its inquisition-like tone. And no doubt some will feel compelled to lambast me for this post. So be it. I guess that I just on't understand the energy being expended to vilify LACO; if a manufacturer upsets me that much I simply refuse to buy their products and give my money to their competition instead. If LACO is guilty of anything at all, it might be that they didn't effectively market the change in movements, but that's an understandable trip-up given the volatility of movement supplies. Most manufacturers are scrambling right now to come up with solutions that will satisfy the demand for their watches.


----------



## logan2z

Uwe W. said:


> I've mostly stayed out of this thread because I was angered by its inquisition-like tone. And no doubt some will feel compelled to lambast me for this post. So be it. I guess that I just on't understand the energy being expended to vilify LACO; if a manufacturer upsets me that much I simply refuse to buy their products and give my money to their competition instead. If LACO is guilty of anything at all, it might be that they didn't effectively market the change in movements, but that's an understandable trip-up given the volatility of movement supplies. Most manufacturers are scrambling right now to come up with solutions that will satisfy the demand for their watches.


My experiences to date with Laco have led me to the conclusion that they have great pride in what they do and they would not risk their business/reputation by trying to dupe unsuspecting watch buyers into buying junk simply to pad their bottom line. Case in point: I recently sent my Kiel back to Laco because I was experiencing an issue with the chronograph. Not only did Laco quickly correct the issue, but they micro-polished the case (it was pretty pristine and they could have easily skipped this) and fitted the watch with a brand new strap (the strap on the watch I sent was practically brand new). Neither of these things were necessary or expected, but it told me that they care deeply about their customer's satisfaction and went to extra measures (at their expense) to ensure that the watch was like new when it was returned.

To add to Uwe's comment, I think that Laco and other companies affected by the ETA shortage under-estimate the degree to which their customers care about the movements in their watches. I was recently on the waiting list for a Sinn U1-T and found out that the watch was not going to ship with an ETA movement as I had expected, but instead would ship with a Sellita movement. There was no mention of this on the Watchbuys web site. I expressed some concern over this and Watchbuys was surprised at my reaction. "Why would you care? Sellita is just as good" was essentially what I heard. Manufacturers need to be more keenly aware of their customer's sensitivity to this issue and react accordingly.

I suggest we cut Laco some slack here as they try to deal with a difficult situation. Provide feedback and express concern, but the mudslinging and conspiracy theories seem unjustified. I for one am satisfied with the recent response from the company and look forward to hearing more from them soon.


----------



## watchma

Uwe W. said:


> To suggest that they would simply lower their standards and _try_ to swindle watch buyers for the sake of making a fast buck is an argument that makes no sense whatsoever.


Certainly not suggested by me - unless you can show me differently ?



> As for the "stuff still being held back," Herr Günther did write that there would be more forthcoming on the subject. I suspect he's an extremely busy man who will have more to say when time permits.


(for me personally) all I can say is I _was_ a laco fan - I've spent lots of Laco £'s, I'm happy with the Laco watches I have already, no more from me though. YMMV

Peace out


----------



## StufflerMike

Well, in Feb 2012 DEPA, announced (as well stated in their current eco catalogue)

"Our movements are based on a Chinese caliber we have chosen after exhausting testing for more than 4 years with very hard labor. With our liaison person based in China, trained in our factory in Ticino (Switzerland). He´s supervising the control of every execution of this specific complex job, fallowing every step of our manufacturing delicate guide line process exclusively for us. Our based main plate is also outsourced to a small company in China that is collaborating with us on this project. We supervise our entire manufacturing cycle directly with our Chinese partner and staff, so that the components meet the maximum necessary requirements of accuracy. 

Special care is put in control of the movement hairspring, clearances, roundness and centering of the wheels. At our facility in Switzerland, the components are further inspected one by one before assembly and then finished with other parts of our own production. Additional components are outsourced to other Swiss companies in Switzerland on our behalf. 

At the end of the manufacturing process, all these elements are subject to strict testing for the tolerance and accuracy needed. This way we strengthen our product to meet the necessary Swiss made standard of watch making in quality, in lawful order. Swiss made Certificate of Origins are provided upon request."

Names and web sites changed in the run of the last three years
.depamovements.com 
.signswatchmovements.com
.signstimemovements.com
DEPA movements is said to be a subsidiary of Depa luxury Distribution GmbH, founded in 2007, also selling De Paula swiss handmade bags, owned by Christina Angela De Paula-Mojzer, Lörrach/Gemany. Catalogue confirms it naming the address in CH the Headquarter.

Looking into the Premium catalogue no movement would fit a Laco Flieger. The DEPA ECO catalogue offers movements which are similar to 2824, 2836.


This all together made me very sceptical. I am happy that LACO backed off.


----------



## 911C4

As a newer member I must say hat I'm impressed with the communication (although it took a while..) and Laco listening to their customers..

I'm happy with the answer and that Laco now have been transparent with what their movements are based on..


----------



## StufflerMike

Guys, please re-read our rules & guidelines. Style and syntax is nothing we want to see discussed here. Threads of that kind will be deleted. Keep it a friendly place.


----------



## Mikeyeli

I have just read this thread one week after receiving a Laco Paderborn, which I have been quite happy with, that is until I read this thread. I bought the watch on the basis of the catalogue on the Laco site which described the movement as an Eta 2824 02, a movement I have always found reliable. I now read the documentation that came with the watch and it says laco 24, 26 jewel. The 2824 is 25 jewels if I'm not mistaken? Currently the movement is running 2 seconds a day slow, so in my experience that means it will be quite slow after it has worn itself in after some months. So it appears Laco misrepresented the watch in the catalogue they described on their site. This is my first dealing with a German watch company via the web, and I do not feel at all satisfied with the transaction.


----------



## logan2z

Mikeyeli said:


> I have just read this thread one week after receiving a Laco Paderborn, which I have been quite happy with, that is until I read this thread. I bought the watch on the basis of the catalogue on the Laco site which described the movement as an Eta 2824 02, a movement I have always found reliable. I now read the documentation that came with the watch and it says laco 24, 26 jewel. The 2824 is 25 jewels if I'm not mistaken? Currently the movement is running 2 seconds a day slow, so in my experience that means it will be quite slow after it has worn itself in after some months. So it appears Laco misrepresented the watch in the catalogue they described on their site. This is my first dealing with a German watch company via the web, and I do not feel at all satisfied with the transaction.


According to Laco's earlier response in this thread:

LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200

I believe the SW200 has 26 jewels so that's probably what's in your Paderborn. This is exactly why Laco has switched to the Laco movement numbers, because they're unable to predict with any certainty whether the ETA movements will be available when a given watch is manufactured. If it's any consolation, the SW200 has a good reputation. I have it in my Muhle Glashutte 29er Big and the watch is very accurate.


----------



## StufflerMike

With 26 jewels you got the Sellita SW 200 which is as good as, as reliable as, as rough as an ETA 2824-2, just one jewel more. So regarding the movement you don't need to worry. That being said, you should get what the catalogue says when ordering.

The fact it is now running 2 seconds a day slow is a very good performance. Can't comment on your experiences but there is no coerciveness it will run quite slow after some month. BTW: An ETA 2824-2, regulated as the SW 200 is, might perform the same way. No difference though. Same pedigree. Isochronism is about +/-15 a day. So be happy with your SW 200.


----------



## Dukat

I only noticed this thread this afternoon. To me, it's still not clear what does inside the watch I want to buy. Is it a chinese model? An ETA? That other brand? Unclarity still rules. The message 'we' got from Laco doesn't satisfy me because it's an apology without a future prospect besides stating that they will observe and monitor and reevaluate for the future. 

No good signs in my book.


----------



## Uwe W.

Dukat said:


> To me, it's still not clear what does inside the watch I want to buy. Is it a chinese model? An ETA? That other brand? Unclarity still rules. The message 'we' got from Laco doesn't satisfy me because it's an apology without a future prospect besides stating that they will observe and monitor and reevaluate for the future. No good signs in my book.


?

Did you read the most recent post from LACO? Not sure how it's unclear. It specified that Chinese movements are not being used. And that the company would stick with using ETA movements. I would have described it as an clarification rather than an apology, mostly because I don't see what LACO needs to be apologetic about, but it looks like you read something completely different. Where were the references in the post about "observing" and "reevaluating"?


----------



## Dukat

Uwe W. said:


> ?
> 
> Did you read the most recent post from LACO? Not sure how it's unclear. It specified that Chinese movements are not being used. And that the company would stick with using ETA movements. I would have described it as an clarification rather than an apology, mostly because I don't see what LACO needs to be apologetic about, but it looks like you read something completely different. Where were the references in the post about "observing" and "reevaluating"?


I disagree... The _site_ is still unclear about what movement is being used to make the Laco 24 movement.

Let's quote the original post:



> It was recently brought to my attention that there are concerns regarding the movements that are being used in our watches. In particular, questions have been raised with respect to our use of DEPA watch movements.
> 
> With the growing difficulty of maintaining a consistent supply of ETA movements, LACO decided to closely examine DEPA movements. We conducted extensive testing of these movements to ensure that they would meet LACO's stringent quality standards, a process that represented a large investment in both time and money.
> 
> *Satisfied with the quality and performance of the DEPA movement, we decided to use them for a small production run of LACO watches. Unfortunately, it was not until after the delivery of these watches had commenced that we discovered a number of our customers wouldn't accept the movement because they were unfamiliar with it.*
> 
> It was for this reason that we decided to suspend the use of the DEPA movement and will instead continue to use ETA movements in our watches.
> 
> The entire LACO team is very proud of the quality and unique character that define every watch that we produce, so it is understandable that we are very disappointed by, and _strongly reject the speculative accusations that were recently made claiming LACO uses cheap Chinese movements in its watches. This matter will be addressed accordingly in future communications._




The bold part is the apology. The italic part is the evaluation.

During my second close read I see I've mistaken the word 'this' for being the use of DEPA movements in stead of the 'speculative accusations'. My bad, sorry!

Still.. it's unclear on their most prominent channel.


----------



## Uwe W.

Dukat said:


> The bold part is the apology.


How is that an apology? He merely stated the facts behind the short-lived use of the DEPA movements, which was that LACO tested them, found that they worked well, and decided to use them. It wasn't until there was a backlash from some buyers that LACO decided against continuing the use of the DEPA movements. Simplified, it was a very brief trial that didn't work out, and was certainly nothing that the company needed to apologise for. I think logan2z's post summed up everything that happened along those lines best.


----------



## Dukat

Uwe W. said:


> How is that an apology? He merely stated the facts behind the short-lived use of the DEPA movements, which was that LACO tested them, found that they worked well, and decided to use them. It wasn't until there was a backlash from some buyers that LACO decided against continuing the use of the DEPA movements. Simplified, it was a very brief trial that didn't work out, and was certainly nothing that the company needed to apologise for. I think logan2z's post summed up everything that happened along those lines best.


I'm sorry, maybe my english isn't good enough, but how is that not an apology, if not in covered terms?

I understand Logan's post but that still doesn't satisfy me. As I said before, it's not clear what they are using, only what they are _not _using  And that's frankly not good enough for me. I can live with blue lacquered hands over thermal blued hands, I can live with a non-original (if there is such a thing?) font or dial design. But I really want to know what's inside. Not for now or for current accuracy but for the future. Every watchmaker knows the ETA 2824 or 2836 or the valjoux 7750. That puts my mind at ease because it means that I can have it serviced anywhere, anytime. And that's worth a lot to me, even if the movement doesn't fit perfectly in the case (case too large for instance) or the crystal is mineral glass in stead of sapphire. That's why I'm so firm in my wish to know what exactly the movement is


----------



## logan2z

Dukat said:


> I'm sorry, maybe my english isn't good enough, but how is that not an apology, if not in covered terms?
> 
> I understand Logan's post but that still doesn't satisfy me. As I said before, it's not clear what they are using, only what they are _not _using  And that's frankly not good enough for me. I can live with blue lacquered hands over thermal blued hands, I can live with a non-original (if there is such a thing?) font or dial design. But I really want to know what's inside. Not for now or for current accuracy but for the future. Every watchmaker knows the ETA 2824 or 2836 or the valjoux 7750. That puts my mind at ease because it means that I can have it serviced anywhere, anytime. And that's worth a lot to me, even if the movement doesn't fit perfectly in the case (case too large for instance) or the crystal is mineral glass in stead of sapphire. That's why I'm so firm in my wish to know what exactly the movement is


Maybe you missed this earlier post from Laco:



Laco Pforzheim said:


> Consequently we have renamed our movements, which are limited to the well known brandnames ETA, Sellita and Miyota.
> 
> LACO 01 = ETA 2801.2
> LACO 04 = ETA 2804.2
> LACO 15 = Miyota 9015
> LACO 21 = Miyota 821A
> LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200
> LACO 50 = ETA 7750
> LACO 92 = ETA 2892A2
> LACO 97 = ETA 6497
> LACO 98 = ETA 6498


Also, I'm not sure where this lacquered vs. thermal blueing notion came from. At least on the more expensive models (Dortmund, Westerland, etc.) Laco's web site clearly states that the hands are thermally blued.


----------



## Dukat

Yes, i absolutely missed that part! Thanks! I clearly missed that. Allow me to crawl back in shame 

About the hands: i know Laco uses thermal blued hands, I was speaking in more general terms (about my considerations for buying a flieger).


----------



## Mikeyeli

Before posting here I contacted Laco to complain about the movement not being ETA. Diana responded and offered to replace to movement with an Eta. After feedback here that the SW 200 was a good movement, I said it was OK, but asked about some customisation for the watch. Diana responded that it wasn't normally available but they would do it for me. I take back my comment about not being satisfied, Laco customer service is great!


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## StufflerMike

Yep, as stated, no worries about the SW 200. Already in *2008 *no less than 350 customers have signed up, with a total production of a million units. In 2008 Sellita estimated that their movements will equip around a third of all Swiss mechanical watches !!. Have no clue about the current figures but be assured: Sellita is as good as ETA.


----------



## bland328

First post by a budding horologist here, having been inspired by my wife's lovely gift of a early 1970s Movado/Zenith El Primo.

I ordered a new Laco Paderborn, then saw this disappointing thread. After receiving the watch yesterday, I promptly emailed Laco customer service with my watch's reference number to ask "Can you please tell me who manufactured the movement in this watch?"

Their non-transparent response was "We use high quality movements made in Switzerland for the Paderborn."

I grasp why they created the "Laco 24" abstraction for specifying the movements used in their watches, but if they aren't transparent even when directly asked, that seems very poor.

I'm admittedly new to the world of timepieces and need to learn what should concern me and what should not. That said, I'm not new to being an educated consumer, buying technology, and caring about the specifics of what I'm getting for my money.

So, I don't know what the think of Laco _or_ my watch right now. Return shipping is free, so I'm tempted, partially because I don't want to spend my money on a mystery movements, and partially on principle.

Should I be concerned that it might contain a movement that is neither ETA nor Sellita?

_TL;DR: Should I return my new Paderborn because Laco won't tell me what movement is in it?

(EDIT: It turns out what I thought was a serial number is actually a model number (yes, embarrassing), so though I still want to know what mechanism is in there, it is disappointing but actually "makes sense" that they don't know without looking.)_


----------



## Dukat

bland328 said:


> First post by a budding horologist here, having been inspired by my wife's lovely gift of a early 1970s Movado/Zenith El Primo.
> 
> I ordered a new Laco Paderborn, then saw this disappointing thread. After receiving the watch yesterday, I promptly emailed Laco customer service with my watch's reference number to ask "Can you please tell me who manufactured the movement in this watch?"
> 
> Their non-transparent response was "We use high quality movements made in Switzerland for the Paderborn."
> 
> I grasp why they created the "Laco 24" abstraction for specifying the movements used in their watches, but if they aren't transparent even when directly asked, that seems very poor.
> 
> I'm admittedly new to the world of timepieces and need to learn what should concern me and what should not. That said, I'm not new to being an educated consumer, buying technology, and caring about the specifics of what I'm getting for my money.
> 
> So, I don't know what the think of Laco _or_ my watch right now. Return shipping is free, so I'm tempted, partially because I don't want to spend my money on a mystery movements, and partially on principle.
> 
> Should I be concerned that it might contain a movement that is neither ETA nor Sellita?
> 
> _TL;DR: Should I return my new Paderborn because Laco won't tell me what movement is in it?_


Hey,

I don't know why they didn't clearly reply but they did so here, in this thread. They ONLY use ETA and Sellita, as stated here:

https://shop.laco.de/en/content.html?coID=39

They also gave the reason for why they resorted to Sellita and that's a perfectly legitimate reason (problems with supplies of ETA, the reason why is also stated: they are more reluctant to deliver to non-swatch companies).

To cut it short: nothing wrong, no problems, everything's fine. It's a good movement whatever's inside. It should state in the booklet what movement it is in your watch. I got an ETA, but would've loved a Sellita just the same.


----------



## logan2z

bland328 said:


> First post by a budding horologist here, having been inspired by my wife's lovely gift of a early 1970s Movado/Zenith El Primo.
> 
> I ordered a new Laco Paderborn, then saw this disappointing thread. After receiving the watch yesterday, I promptly emailed Laco customer service with my watch's reference number to ask "Can you please tell me who manufactured the movement in this watch?"
> 
> Their non-transparent response was "We use high quality movements made in Switzerland for the Paderborn."
> 
> I grasp why they created the "Laco 24" abstraction for specifying the movements used in their watches, but if they aren't transparent even when directly asked, that seems very poor.
> 
> I'm admittedly new to the world of timepieces and need to learn what should concern me and what should not. That said, I'm not new to being an educated consumer, buying technology, and caring about the specifics of what I'm getting for my money.
> 
> So, I don't know what the think of Laco _or_ my watch right now. Return shipping is free, so I'm tempted, partially because I don't want to spend my money on a mystery movements, and partially on principle.
> 
> Should I be concerned that it might contain a movement that is neither ETA nor Sellita?
> 
> _TL;DR: Should I return my new Paderborn because Laco won't tell me what movement is in it?_


I have no idea why you got the odd response you did to your email, but the CEO of Laco posted this earlier in the thread:

LACO 01 = ETA 2801.2
LACO 04 = ETA 2804.2
LACO 15 = Miyota 9015
LACO 21 = Miyota 821A
LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200
LACO 50 = ETA 7750
LACO 92 = ETA 2892A2
LACO 97 = ETA 6497
LACO 98 = ETA 6498

If your watch contains the Laco 24 movement then it's either an ETA2824.2 or a Sellita SW200, both of which are quality Swiss movements.

Edit: Oops looks like Dukat beat me to it.


----------



## celtics1984

Hi Bland328, I just purchased and received my new Panderborn last week and was concerned as well on which movement is in my watch. I am no longer concerned because the watch keeps excellent time. Other WUS members have stated as well as Laco that we should either have a ETA or Selitta movement in our watches. From Mike's previous post Selitta is an excellent movement and there should not be any concern. My advice is if you like the watch then you should enjoy it for what it is and wear the heck out it. I am and will be keeping my watch. Good luck


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## Uwe W.

First off, welcome to WUS and the LACO sub-forum.

I can understand how this thread could be confusing for someone who is just developing an interest in watches; you're right, it is a disappointing thread to read, but only because of the unfounded accusations that were being bandied that inferred LACO was short-changing its customers in some way.

To answer your question directly, no, you shouldn't be worried about the movement that is inside your watch. LACO is a conscientious, well-established, and reputable manufacturer that produces high quality watches. The company wouldn't risk their reputation or future sales by stuffing sub-par movements into their watches. That's not how they work. Period.

The use of ambiguous movement descriptors is nothing new - and certainly not an invention of LACO's. Many high-end watch manufacturers have been doing this for years. A base movement is modified in some way and then given a new name because it has been altered. This practice makes even more sense now given the unpredictability of movement availability from what used to be the industry's go-to movement supplier, ETA.

LACO's CEO has clearly stated in this thread that the company would not use any sub-par (read Chinese) movements in the manufacture of its watches. He also stated that they would not be shipping any watches fitted with DEPA movements, not because the movements were inferior in any way, but because LACO discovered that some buyers were unaccepting of something they weren't familiar with.

The decision to keep and enjoy your impressive LACO timepiece, or send it back, is of course yours. It's a shame that this thread has tainted your experience, especially since you don't have anything to be concerned about. I've been buying LACO watches for many years now - and I'll continue to buy LACO watches for many years to come; my trust in the company is based on the people who work there and not the comments of a handful of conspiracy theorists.

And whether or not the case back of my LACO watch has a three letter movement manufacturer's name stamped on it means nothing to me. Based on my own experiences, I've found that there are many reliable and accurate mechanical movements out there that are _not_ manufactured by ETA.

I write all of this based on my first-hand experiences with owning LACO watches and my direct interactions with the company. A few here will be champing at the bit to convince you of the opposite and you will need to decide who and what you want to believe. The main thing is that you're satisfied with whatever decision you make, just as you're satisfied with whatever watch you decide to wear.


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## bland328

Thanks for the quick responses, guys. I'll reply to everyone all at once here:

I've read the entire thread, and my interpretation of the situation differs.

In post #63, Diana Bott of Laco is quoted as having emailed _"...we use swiss movements (ETA, Sellita, and DP) in our watches. We use them as they become available..."
_*Here, Diana says they use DEPA.
*
In post #1Günther11, Laco managing director Andreas Günther posted "LACO 24 = ETA 2824.2 or SW200"
*Here, Mr. **Günther says they don't (currently) use DEPA.
*
And then in post #139, Mr. Günther posted "Satisfied with the quality and performance of the DEPA movement, we decided to use them for a small production run of LACO watches...", acknowledged that customers were unhappy with the decision, and then said "It was for this reason that we decided to suspend the use of the DEPA movement and will instead continue to use ETA movements in our watches."
*Here, Mr. Günther says they did use DEPA, but don't any more.
*
So, it is clear to me that Laco did indeed put DEPA movements in some watches, got negative customer feedback, and decided to stop. They are no longer putting DEPA movements in watches, but they did, if only briefly.

All I want to know is if I got a DEPA movement, or not, because I don't want one.


----------



## Uwe W.

bland328 said:


> All I want to know is if I got a DEPA movement, or not, because I don't want one.


Based on comments made in this thread, it's my understanding that the DEPA movement was only used in the Friedrichshafen model; however, this would need to be confirmed - and LACO is currently short-staffed because production is shut down for summer vacation - so it would take a while to get a response to this question.


----------



## gthompson34

Uwe W. said:


> LACO's CEO has clearly stated in this thread that the company would not use any sub-par (read Chinese) movements in the manufacture of its watches. He also stated that they would not be shipping any watches fitted with DEPA movements, not because the movements were inferior in any way, but because LACO discovered that some buyers were unaccepting of something they weren't familiar with.


You must mean "the CEO clearly stated in thread 139 that the company would *NO LONGER* use any sub-par movements." As for me, i find the thread to be a group of users that challenged a manufacturer to tell us what is inside the watch. I made assumptions in some of my threads because Laco was silent. I clearly stated they were assumptions. If my threads were accusatory, so be it. I have the emails from Laco reflecting the vague replies to my direct questions. I wanted to know what was a Laco 24 and I never got a straight answer after 8 or so replies from Laco.


----------



## Moffett

This has been beaten to death. 
It was stated that every movement used by Laco is a high quality movement. It is then modified by Laco to be as accurate, rugged, and beautiful as possible. Also they only use movements manufactured in Switzerland or Japan. 
Why are you going to question how good your watch is? Is a Rolex worth less because it doesn't have a movement made by ETA in it?


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> Based on comments made in this thread, it's my understanding that the DEPA movement was only used in the Friedrichshafen model; however, this would need to be confirmed - and LACO is currently short-staffed because production is shut down for summer vacation - so it would take a while to get a response to this question.


You are exactly right, Uwe. I'm currently emailing with a very friendly and responsive woman at Laco who says that their service department is out until the 19th.

She's also telling me that there's no way to determine what movement is in the watch based on the serial number _(EDIT: this one issue makes more sense than I originally thought, because I embarrassingly mistook a model number for a serial number)_, and that the fact that the pre-printed booklet included says "26 jewels" must mean that it is either a Sellita or DEPA, because an ETA would be 25 jewels.

So, they can't determine the movement without opening the watch, but they supposedly print two distinct paper booklets, and somehow manage to get the right one in with my watch when it is placed in the zippered case? I don't think so.

I'm told the only way to determine what mechanism is in the watch is to ship it to them so they can peek inside. But, of course, not right now, because the service department is closed until the 19th.

I suppose I could open it myself, as I'm reasonably mechanically inclined, but I don't have tools, have never done it before, and don't want to interfere with my ability to simply ship it back and get a refund.

How frustrating.


----------



## bland328

Moffett said:


> This has been beaten to death.


It is a _tired_ topic, to be sure, but I respectfully disagree about being beaten to death. Laco briefly equipped a movement from a manufacturer unknown to many, then decided it was a poor decision and stopped using the mechanism. I don't particularly want the mechanism that Laco equipped only briefly, even if stopping was just a PR move.

If you'll entertain me twisting your Rolex question into "is a Rolex worth less if Rolex starts putting an unfamiliar-to-most movement into only some of their watches and isn't forthcoming about it?", then I would answer yes


----------



## bland328

_A minor (positive) update:_ the Laco rep with whom I'm emailing has offered to not only open the watch and determine what movement is equipped, but even replace it with the movement of my choice.

_(EDIT: Removed a comment about serial numbers that doesn't make sense because I embarrassingly mistook a model number for a serial number, and updated the next sentence appropriately.)
_
Disappointing that they can't tell without looking, I'm pleased by this fair offer on their part.


----------



## logan2z

bland328 said:


> _A minor (positive) update:_ the Laco rep with whom I'm emailing has offered to not only open the watch and determine what movement is equipped, but even replace it with the movement of my choice.
> 
> That the serial number doesn't tell them what movement was used is mind boggling to me. Accepting that strange fact, I'm pleased by this fair offer on their part.


Good to hear. I have to say that communication isn't the company's strong suit (I'm having a bit of a frustrating correspondence with them at the moment myself) but they truly do seem to want to do the right thing for their customers.


----------



## CM HUNTER

bland328 said:


> _A minor (positive) update:_ the Laco rep with whom I'm emailing has offered to not only open the watch and determine what movement is equipped, but even replace it with the movement of my choice.
> 
> That the serial number doesn't tell them what movement was used is mind boggling to me. Accepting that strange fact, I'm pleased by this fair offer on their part.


What a hassle just to own a watch. Having to ship it back just to know what you've got, because a serial number is not even any help to the manufacturer at this point. (Edit: Thought that Bland meant the model number of the Laco, meaning that they are not positive which particular model/models the DEPA may be in.)

Unfortunately, since it was stated that SOME Laco watches were indeed shipped with a DEPA movement (no matter how small the amount), the consumer is always going to have that lingering question if they were one of the few that got a model with that movement in it.

At least you will have some peace of mind after you send your watch all the way back to Germany.


----------



## bland328

logan2z said:


> Good to hear. I have to say that communication isn't the company's strong suit (I'm having a bit of a frustrating correspondence with them at the moment myself) but they truly do seem to want to do the right thing for their customers.


She's very friendly, and really does seem to want to help. Even though I _suspect_ she's working off of a flawed belief or two that she can't double-check with anyone properly right now because the service department is on holiday, I do appreciate her responsiveness, attitude and offer to have the factory make it right for me. I suspect that's better than I would get with a lot of watch manufacturers, but admittedly don't have the experience to judge it properly.


----------



## bland328

CM HUNTER said:


> What a hassle just to own a watch. Having to ship it back just to know what you've got, because a serial number is not even any help to the manufacturer at this point.
> 
> Unfortunately, since it was stated that SOME Laco watches were indeed shipped with a DEPA movement (no matter how small the amount), the consumer is always going to have that lingering question if they were one of the few that got a model with that movement in it.
> 
> At least you will have some peace of mind after you send your watch all the way back to Germany.


_(EDIT: Removed a comment about serial numbers that doesn't make sense because I embarrassingly mistook a model number for a serial number, and updated the next sentence appropriately.)_

To be fair, DEPA might make great movements! I'm just not interested in gambling with a mostly-reputationless movement.

Though I may well be wrong on this, I'm under the impression that many people who know something about watch movement reputations would say "ETA makes a great movement. Sellita does, too--top notch. What's a DEPA?"


----------



## StufflerMike

> Is a Rolex worth less because it doesn't have a movement made by ETA in it?


If it would be a Depa the answer would be yes, sure.


----------



## bland328

stuffler said:


> If it would be a Depa the answer would be yes, sure.


I agree. And if one accepts that, then I think one has to accept that the mere _possibility_ it is equipped with a DEPA movement would also devalue a Rolex--not because DEPA is known to be bad, but because it isn't well known to be anything in particular.


----------



## bland328

stuffler said:


> With 26 jewels you got the Sellita SW 200 which is as good as, as reliable as, as rough as an ETA 2824-2, just one jewel more. So regarding the movement you don't need to worry. That being said, you should get what the catalogue says when ordering.





Mikeyeli said:


> Before posting here I contacted Laco to complain about the movement not being ETA. Diana responded and offered to replace to movement with an Eta. After feedback here that the SW 200 was a good movement, I said it was OK...


Regarding my new Paderborn which is engraved "LACO 24" and includes a booklet specifying "LACO 24" and 26 jewels, the Laco rep with whom I'm currently emailing says clearly "26 stones could be Sellita or DEPA."


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> First off, welcome to WUS and the LACO sub-forum...I've found that there are many reliable and accurate mechanical movements out there that are _not_ manufactured by ETA.


Uwe, I'm doing this a bit out of order, admittedly, but I did fail to both thank you for welcoming me to the forum, and for your well-considered and well-expressed response. So...thank you!

I'm extremely open to non-ETA movements which are found by knowledgeable people to be reliable and accurate--I just don't have reason to believe that a DEPA movement fits that description.


----------



## watchma

bland328 said:


> the Laco rep with whom I'm currently emailing says clearly "26 stones could be Sellita *or DEPA*."


Oooops :roll::-d

This thread just keeps on giving


----------



## Uwe W.

bland328 said:


> That the serial number doesn't tell them what movement was used is mind boggling to me. Accepting that strange fact, I'm pleased by this fair offer on their part.


I wasn't aware that LACO watches had serial numbers on them.


----------



## watchma

He's perhaps thinking the 6 digit model number is a serial ?


----------



## bland328

I'm a reasonably coordinated, careful and mechanically-inclined guy, but I've never opened a watch.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the wisdom of using one of these:

_Professional JAXA Type XL Watch Case Back Opener Wrench for Large Waterproof Watches_
Professional JAXA Type XL Watch Case Back Opener Wrench for Large Waterproof Watches: Watches: Amazon.com

and maybe one of these:

_Paylak TSHOL1328 Watch Case Holder Extra Large Watch Repair Kit_
Paylak TSHOL1328 Watch Case Holder Extra Large Watch Repair Kit: Watches: Amazon.com

to take a peek in my 42mm Paderborn and determine what movement is in there before deciding whether to 1) return it to the dealer; 2) ship it off to Laco for a new movement _(as they've already offered);_ or 3) keep it because there already an ETA or SW in there. _(Though the Laco rep says it can't be an ETA because the paper booklet specifies 26 jewels.)
_
The goal is to try to avoid returning it to the dealer it or shipping it to Germany if what's already in there is an ETA or SW, but without screwing up and somehow eliminating the option to return it to the dealer. I simply don't know if this will be challenging or do without marring or damaging the case, or so straightforward that I'll wonder what I was ever worried about.


----------



## Uwe W.

The case back is pressure fit, so a wrench is a completely wrong tool for the job. You would need a case knife and a press to properly open and close the case, and I wouldn't use this watch as a first-time guinea pig to learn how to properly open such a case, especially not if you're thinking about sending it back.


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> I wasn't aware that LACO watches had serial numbers on them.





watchma said:


> He's perhaps thinking the 6 digit model number is a serial ?


Oh, hell...how embarrassing. Thanks for catching that, guys.

I thought the handwritten number in the booklet was a serial (it translates as "reference") number, when it is in fact the model number.

Sorry, everyone! Now time to clarify with and apologize to my Laco rep, too. Throw in a mild language barrier, and she probably wonders what in the world this crazy customer is talking about.

This impacts only my point that I'm surprised they can't look up the movement in my watch by serial number; turns out they can't because I'm dense and thought a model number was a serial number.

Now, back to wondering what movement is in my watch.


----------



## Uwe W.

bland328 said:


> Now, back to wondering what movement is in my watch.


Why not just take it to a reputable watchmaker in your area and get him to open and close it while you wait? If it were me, I'd wait the couple of weeks for those in the know to return from their vacation and you might get the answer you're looking for without having to get the watch opened.


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> The case back is pressure fit, so a wrench is a completely wrong tool for the job.


Ah! Thanks for that--I assumed higher-end watches called for wrenches. I'll go educate myself on that.


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> Why not just take it to a reputable watchmaker in your area and get him to open and close it while you wait? If it were me, I'd wait the couple of weeks for those in the know to return from their vacation and you might get the answer you're looking for without having to get the watch opened.


Did you mean you'd wait in hopes that those in the know can answer the question without seeing the watch? If so, I have to say that at this point, even if the managing director of Laco swore up and down that no Paderborn had ever been equipped with a DEPA movement, I'd wonder if he was right. That is, not questioning his _honesty_...just his _accuracy_, given other frustrating and perhaps inconsistent communication from Laco.


----------



## Uwe W.

bland328 said:


> Did you mean you'd wait in hopes that those in the know can answer the question without seeing the watch? If so, I have to say that at this point, even if the managing director of Laco swore up and down that no Paderborn had ever been equipped with a DEPA movement, I'd wonder if he was right. That is, not questioning his _honesty_...just his _accuracy_, given other ineffective communication from Laco.


I'm sorry that's the impression you have of LACO. And it's unfortunate that all of this unfolded just after the company shut down for its annual summer holiday; the person you have been corresponding with is filling in for someone else, so it isn't a surprise that she doesn't have all the answers to your questions. She tried to help, and offered solutions to satisfy your demands. so I don't see how that constitutes an example of ineffective communication. Do you know how many emails I've sent to other watch manufacturers over the years that contained very simple and basic questions concerning their watches that I own and never received a single reply?

And to suggest that everyone at LACO is inept or incapable of providing an accurate answer because of your current email exchange with a stand-in is unfair. Regardless, if that's your impression of the company maybe the best course of action for you would be to just send the watch back and get your money refunded.


----------



## Mikeyeli

This is a bit of a detective story. Laco were very good to me when I inquired about what movement I had in my Paderborn, they offered to check and replace it. I told them that was OK but I did want to see if I could get a see through case back, which they offered to install for me if I sent the watch back them - great customer service. I took them up on the offer and when they had the watch they told me I had the ETA movement all along. I now have the watch back with a transparent back and am very happy. The interesting thing is, the watch I sent was regularly 2 seconds slow a day, the one I have back is 5 seconds fast per day. Which is fine by me. By the way, I wouldn't open the back myself, it invalidates the warranty.


----------



## Moffett

Mikeyeli said:


> I now have the watch back with a transparent back and am very happy.


I'd love to see pictures of that.


----------



## gthompson34

Uwe W. said:


> I'm sorry that's the impression you have of LACO. And it's unfortunate that all of this unfolded just after the company shut down for its annual summer holiday; the person you have been corresponding with is filling in for someone else, so it isn't a surprise that she doesn't have all the answers to your questions. She tried to help, and offered solutions to satisfy your demands. so I don't see how that constitutes an example of ineffective communication. Do you know how many emails I've sent to other watch manufacturers over the years that contained very simple and basic questions concerning their watches that I own and never received a single reply?
> 
> And to suggest that everyone at LACO is inept or incapable of providing an accurate answer because of your current email exchange with a stand-in is unfair. Regardless, if that's your impression of the company maybe the best course of action for you would be to just send the watch back and get your money refunded.


where do u see bland328 say inept or incapable? He clearly means the history of vague emails from Laco to other users regarding what movement is inside. I'm beginning to think you work for Laco or get free watches.


----------



## Uwe W.

gthompson34 said:


> where do u see bland328 say inept or incapable?





bland328 said:


> I have to say that at this point, *even if the managing director of Laco swore up and down that no Paderborn had ever been equipped with a DEPA movement, I'd wonder if he was right. That is, not questioning his honesty...just his accuracy*, given other frustrating and perhaps inconsistent communication from Laco.


That's as clear a suggestion of ineptness as you'll ever get.



gthompson34 said:


> I'm beginning to think you work for Laco or get free watches.


And I'm beginning to think that you're just a troll. No, I don't work for LACO - nor have I ever received a free watch (want to see all of my receipts?) - I just happen to know a hell of a lot more about the company than you do. I also wait to get all of the facts before accusing anyone of dishonest practices.

If you want to continue this nonsense it will have to be by PM, because your inappropriate and incorrect suggestions have no place in this forum.


----------



## Mitch339

A bit off-subject, but i just thought i'd mention that Laco watch cases are all made in asia, including the "higher end" models. I inquired today about the Westerland model directly with customer service and this is what I was told.

While the lady who i corresponded with was quick and friendly, I cannot justify spending over 1000$ for an asian made case with a base undecorated/unmodified swiss movement. It's a real shame because i was literally minutes away from ordering.


----------



## logan2z

Mitch339 said:


> A bit off-subject, but i just thought i'd mention that Laco watch cases are all made in asia, including the "higher end" models. I inquired today about the Westerland model directly with customer service and this is what I was told.
> 
> While the lady who i corresponded with was quick and friendly, I cannot justify spending over 1000$ for an asian made case with a base undecorated/unmodified swiss movement. It's a real shame because i was literally minutes away from ordering.


There was a thread about this a couple of years ago and someone from Laco responded and implied that that the higher end models were made in 'Europe'. Interesting that you heard otherwise.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/about-laco-watch-cases-389714.html


----------



## CM HUNTER

Mitch339 said:


> A bit off-subject, but i just thought i'd mention that Laco watch cases are all made in asia, including the "higher end" models. I inquired today about the Westerland model directly with customer service and this is what I was told.
> 
> While the lady who i corresponded with was quick and friendly, I cannot justify spending over 1000$ for an asian made case with a base undecorated/unmodified swiss movement. It's a real shame because i was literally minutes away from ordering.


As stated earlier in this thread, most of the "authorities" that are usually there at Laco are currently on holiday for the summer. The lady you spoke with is no doubt a very nice lady, but as far as being knowledgeable about anything other than how to answer a phone is questionable. I would wait and get a response from someone that is a better representative of Laco.

Depends on where you mean by saying Asia as well. Grand Seiko cases are made in Asia, and I wouldn't turn one of them down in the slightest. If you're implying China (like so many usually try to do), again I'd wait and contact Laco when they get done with their holiday for a more enlightened response.


----------



## Moffett

Mitch339 said:


> Laco watch cases are all made in asia, including the "higher end" models.


I'm pretty sure you are wrong. Laco would have a rather large building for doing nothing more than installing a pre assembled movements inside pre assembled watch cases.


----------



## Mitch339

I hope I am wrong. All i am doing is relaying information to me that was given by customer service, hopefully CM Hunter is correct and it's just an honest mistake by an employee replacing someone on vacation. If this is the cases are truly made in Germany then I will go ahead and buy a watch right away.

I guess we'll find out...


----------



## bland328

Uwe W. said:


> ...the person you have been corresponding with is filling in for someone else...she tried to help, and offered solutions to satisfy your demands...so I don't see how that constitutes an example of ineffective communication...And to suggest that everyone at LACO is inept or incapable of providing an accurate answer because of your current email exchange with a stand-in is unfair...


I've been a bit misunderstood, Uwe.

Regarding my contact being a stand-in for someone, I didn't know that, and don't know that it would be germane, because I've been pleasant with her in our email exchange and often complimentary about her attitude and efforts when posting here. Not 100%, naturally, because conflict exists.

Regarding the assertion that I suggested everyone at LACO is inept, I'm sorry to the people at LACO if it came off that way. To clarify, the source of my doubt about their ability to communicate openly, effectively and accurately _on this topic_ is _this thread_--not my email communication with LACO.

To recap: so far, from reading this thread and emailing with LACO, I've thought I was buying ETA; then learned I was buying LACO 24; then learned that might mean ETA, SW or DEPA; then told it had to be ETA or SW; then told DEPA is still a possibility; then learned they can't tell me what's in my watch without looking; then told the evidence suggests it is probably SW or DEPA.

So..._that's_ what leads me to say that simply being told "hey, good news, we didn't put DEPAs in any Paderborns, so no need to peek inside there" wouldn't exactly fill me with confidence! 

However, much of this is moot, anyway, because LACO has very fairly _and_ promptly offered to crack my watch open and substitute another movement, if I don't like what's in there.

So, you don't have to be "sorry that's the impression _ have of LACO"--it isn't that bad._


----------



## bland328

Mikeyeli said:


> ..I now read the documentation that came with the watch and it says laco 24, 26 jewel.





Mikeyeli said:


> ...when they had the watch they told me I had the ETA movement all along...


Mikeyeli, your booklet says you have a 26 jewel movement, but it turns out you have a 25 jewel ETA.

My booklet also says I have a 26 jewel movement, and the LACO rep uses that evidence to rule out the possibility that I have an ETA.

Where's the "eyeroll" emoji when I need it?


----------



## Uwe W.

bland328 said:


> Where's the "eyeroll" emoji when I need it?


Click on "Go Advanced" after you've used the "Reply" button. Emoticons are on your right. :roll:

:-d

Back to your watch, I hope you get this matter resolved quickly and to your satisfaction.


----------



## watchma

> Originally Posted by *Mikeyeli* ..I now read the documentation that came with the watch and it says laco 24, 26 jewel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Mikeyeli*
> ...when they had the watch they told me I had the ETA movement all along...
> 
> Mikeyeli, your booklet says you have a 26 jewel movement, but it turns out you have a 25 jewel ETA.
> 
> My booklet also says I have a 26 jewel movement, and the LACO rep uses that evidence to rule out the possibility that I have an ETA.
> 
> Where's the "eyeroll" emoji when I need it?


Not sure whether you're thinking there is a 24 jewel movement floating about too??, the 24 in Laco24 comes about from the original movement they used before all this swapping in and out at will of what shall we say : more than 1 movement lol , was the ETA28*24 *(which by the by was a 25 Jewel)


----------



## Mikeyeli

Moffett said:


> I'd love to see pictures of that.


----------



## Horologic

Cool pic. I couldn't tell, does it say 25 jewels on the rotor ?


Did anyone figure out what Depa movement went into that small batch of watches ?

I looked through the Depa Luxury catalog and didn't see anything with central seconds hand. 

It's funny, I saw a pic of a Depa economy movement that said Swiss Made. Even though it's a Chinese ebauche. That's legal if a Swiss company paid x and put x + 1 worth of labor into decorating or regulating it.

I'm glad this thread took off. It probably helped convince Laco to use only Sellita as a substitute for ETA in the models with Swiss movements.


----------



## Mikeyeli

It's 25 jewels.


----------



## diversus

bland328 said:


> Regarding my new Paderborn which is engraved "LACO 24" and includes a booklet specifying "LACO 24" and 26 jewels, the Laco rep with whom I'm currently emailing says clearly "26 stones could be Sellita or DEPA."


I asked LACO: I purchased Pilot watch 42 mm automatic PADEBORN... Order date 12.06.2013, reference number 861749. Watch outfitted LACO 24 movement. Which brandname movement is used in my watch: ETA 2824.2, Sellita SW200 or any DEPA movements?

Аnswer: "you can start from that either ETA or DEPA movement has been used in your watch".


----------



## Horologic

I'd ask for the same arrangement with Laco. Return your watch for inspection. ETA and no worries, with a DEPA movement, I'd have strong second thoughts about the purchase. Even if it was a good reliable movement, Laco apparently changed its mind, so I'd much rather have one of the other brands for service and parts availability.

I'd love to see the sweep on a DEPA Paderborn.


----------



## diversus

Yes, LACO wrote: "send back the watch on our FedEx account, then we can check what is really inside.
To give you our best service, we will replace the DEPA movement (in case there is a DEPA movement in your watch) to an ETA movement".
But it is impossible to send watch with FedEx from Russia. Alas.


----------



## celtics1984

The case back on my new Paderborn says ETA movement but the Laco manual says Laco 24 movement with 26 jewels. Am I to assume that I have an ETA movement in my watch due to the case back marking? In the previous posts the case backs have been marked at Laco.


----------



## Moffett

I think the case back is a better indication than the paper booklet it came with.


----------



## watchma

Moffett said:


> I think the case back is a better indication than the paper booklet it came with.


Hmmm, from Laco's answer "then we can check what is really inside. - To give you our best service, we will replace the DEPA movement (in case there is a DEPA movement in your watch) to an ETA movement"

I'm not so sure, it implies a non eta watch would still have ETA on the caseback


----------



## Moffett

watchma said:


> Hmmm, from Laco's answer "then we can check what is really inside. - To give you our best service, we will replace the DEPA movement (in case there is a DEPA movement in your watch) to an ETA movement"
> 
> I'm not so sure, it implies a non eta watch would still have ETA on the caseback


I am just assuming this. But I think if the watch itself is marked as having an ETA movement inside of it, they wouldn't put a DEPA movement in the case. 
The booklet says its a Laco 24 movement in it because the ETA 2824-2 is now the Laco 24. So the booklet is correct and the watch back is correct.


----------



## celtics1984

I agree that Laco would not put a DEPA movement in a case that is marked ETA. My Paderborn has been keeping +1 to 2 seconds time a day which is excellent. The second hand sweeps very consistent without any stagger.


----------



## watchma

celtics1984 said:


> I agree that Laco would not put a DEPA movement in a case that is marked ETA


That's my point , they are offering to take a watch back to check whether it has a DEPA in there or not


> "then we can check what is really inside. - To give you our best service, we will replace the DEPA movement (in case there is a DEPA movement in your watch) to an ETA movement"


If they can't tell without opening , then it says to me that the back doesn't say DEPA on DEPA equipped watches?

If it said DEPA, then all Laco would have to say to the customer is check what it says on the back of the watch ....


----------



## Moffett

I believe the new case back says Werk-Bez Laco 24 like it shows on the web sight now.


----------



## diversus

watchma said:


> If they can't tell without opening , then it says to me that the back doesn't say DEPA on DEPA equipped watches?


From a letter Laco: "Unfortunately we can not give you this detailed information for each single watch.
If you wish to know exactly which movement is inside your watch, there is only one possibility in sending back the watch to us, we can open it and give you the information.
You also have the possibility to go to a watch maker at your side to open the watch, but please note that in this case you will forfeit the guarantee for your watch."


----------



## kellencl

WOW! Lately, I've decided I want a flieger that is somewhat historically accurate. After researching the various German makers, I settled on a Laco Munster. THEN.......I came across _this thread_. Holy crap! I thought I picked a winner. _Now_....I'm not sure what's in transit. As Old McDonald said......"Dagnabbit"!!!!


----------



## Uwe W.

You did pick a winner.


----------



## halfempty

kellencl said:


> WOW! Lately, I've decided I want a flieger that is somewhat historically accurate. After researching the various German makers, I settled on a Laco Munster. THEN.......I came across _this thread_. Holy crap! I thought I picked a winner. _Now_....I'm not sure what's in transit. As Old McDonald said......"Dagnabbit"!!!!


I'm in a similar spot. Was going to order a Paderborn tonight and saw this thread. Granted, I've only read the first two pages and last 3 pages of this thread, so I don't know everything that has been said, but I find it interesting that some folks don't seem to be bothered by this. To me, people who are serious about their watches and visit sites such as these, knowing what movement is in your watch is key. I must be missing something. 
I'm going to check out the Steinharts now and see if they have done the same thing as Laco. If not, I'm buying one of their watches instead. Too bad, I was looking forward to that vintage design


----------



## sci

The move with Depa was not a pleasant surprise, but Laco finally reacted and put Depas back. If you buy now your watch it will be ETA powered, according to official Laco communication. Moreover, Laco offers movement replacement, as reported by some, if you don't want non-ETA mechanic.


----------



## gthompson34

I don't know that I would discount the Laco. I have never seen a Steinhart but a Laco is very nice quality; and there are several threads you can find in this forum in which others talk about superior quality of Laco over Steinhart. It is my opinion that Laco has behaved suspicious in some respects and very good in others. First, in my effort to determine the baseline movement in a Laco 24, Laco's responses were cryptic. It took way too many emails to finally get the answers. I attribute 30% of this to the language barrier and 70% to an unwillingness to put in writing that they were using an inferior/unacceptable movement and calling it Laco 24. I think it is also important to note that there is nothing definitive that states the run of DEPA was limited to a particular model nor how long the run(s) lasted. In the end, it appears IMO that this thread and possibly other customer feedback expressed enough dislike of DEPA that Laco decided to dump the idea of DEPA and revert back to ETA and Selitta. According to Laco, any current watch order is a ETA or Selitta. If you are still suspect, you could read threads 193 and 206. In those threads is an example of how wonderful customer service can be at Laco; my second point. You will see that Laco offered to install a transparent case back so the owner could see the movement. The owner agreed and it showed an ETA. Post 206 shows a good pic. Post 193 does not explicitly state the transparent case back was free, but I get the impression it was free.

As with any watch purchase, you have to make up your mind. As for me, I am on the fence still, but I think time may instill a good case of amnesia. I still think for the historically accuracy, Laco is the best out there. I like the transparent case back so when/if I buy a Laco I will likely request it.



halfempty said:


> I'm in a similar spot. Was going to order a Paderborn tonight and saw this thread. Granted, I've only read the first two pages and last 3 pages of this thread, so I don't know everything that has been said, but I find it interesting that some folks don't seem to be bothered by this. To me, people who are serious about their watches and visit sites such as these, knowing what movement is in your watch is key. I must be missing something.
> I'm going to check out the Steinharts now and see if they have done the same thing as Laco. If not, I'm buying one of their watches instead. Too bad, I was looking forward to that vintage design


----------



## kellencl

I have some info that may be of interest re the Laco 24 currently being used in the Paderborn. I just took delivery, yesterday, of a brand new Paderborn with Laco marked as the movement on the back, and Laco 24 listed in the booklet, and on the hang tag. Upon reading the book, it describes the movement as a 4 Hz 28,800 BPH, but does not mention jewel count. It sounded identical to my Munster, which is an ETA, and the sweep looked identical. The winding sounded a little more crisp, but not bad in any way. Curiosity was killing me, and so I opened her up. Inside was a 25 jewel movement marked Laco 24. There were no other markings that I could see. It certainly looked identical, in every respect, to an ETA 2824-2, so I'm assuming that what Laco's GM said was true. They are only using ETA in the higher end Lacos from now on.

K


----------



## Andy the Squirrel

kellencl said:


> I have some info that may be of interest re the Laco 24 currently being used in the Paderborn. I just took delivery, yesterday, of a brand new Paderborn with Laco marked as the movement on the back, and Laco 24 listed in the booklet, and on the hang tag. Upon reading the book, it describes the movement as a 4 Hz 28,800 BPH, but does not mention jewel count. It sounded identical to my Munster, which is an ETA, and the sweep looked identical. The winding sounded a little more crisp, but not bad in any way. Curiosity was killing me, and so I opened her up. Inside was a 25 jewel movement marked Laco 24. There were no other markings that I could see. It certainly looked identical, in every respect, to an ETA 2824-2, so I'm assuming that what Laco's GM said was true. They are only using ETA in the higher end Lacos from now on.
> 
> K


Curious, how easy is it to remove the case back? Did you see 2824-2 and the ETA logo underneath the balance wheel?


----------



## kellencl

I have a case knife, so not difficult at all. Putting it back together was the harder part. The tell tale sign that it's an ETA was that it was marked 25 jewels, not 21, nor 26. I did not see any markings, except the Laco 24 engraved on the rotor, and twenty-five jewels Swiss made. After reading this thread, it appears that the Depa has either 21 or 26 jewels, based on my reading of their spec sheets, and a post by someone who opened up a Depa based laco, and it was marked 26 jewels. Since both the Selittas and Depas used in the Lacos were verified to be 26 jewel movements, and the ETA is 25 jewels, I am quite confident that mine is, indeed, an ETA. My guess is that ETA is sending them unbranded, at Laco's request, so the only logo you see is Laco 24 on the rotor, much like an Omega Seamaster has Omega 1120 on it, though it's an ETA based movement, as well. As someone else mentioned, other watch companies have been putting their own name on ETA based movements, for years. The rotor _is_ slightly decorated. I could kick myself for not taking a few pics, when I had it open...


----------



## watchma

watchma said:


> This should be on the website - Like a technical info page...


https://shop.laco.de/en/News.html


----------



## kellencl

watchma said:


> https://shop.laco.de/en/News.html


_My_ concern was that I purchased from a US dealer, who could have still had a Depa in his possession, AFAIK, Laco never stated that they recalled the ones that had already shipped. In fact, they kept saying they didn't know what movement was in any given watch, without opening it. So.....I decided to open mine. For my own peace of mind, I had to make sure.


----------



## watchma

It's ok , I just found that news page by accident just then , then I remember suggesting way back it should be a web page - they must have listened lol

I too would have wanted to know in your circs


----------



## diversus

Today the watchmaker opened my watch (Padeborn). He said: “ETA logo no. LACO 1925 (!), Swiss made, 25 jewels is engraved inside”. ETA?

P.S. In instruction and invoice was written “26 jewels”.


----------



## Uwe W.

diversus said:


> Swiss made, 25 jewels is engraved inside. ETA?


Yes.


----------



## diversus

Thanks!​


----------



## kellencl

Nice! Like you, I HAD to know, and my Paderborn is the same as yours, though my paperwork just said Laco 24, and the sticker on the box had an L, written in ink. Congrats on that beauty. Did you get the closed loop strap for it? If not, do! It looks awesome!


----------



## diversus

kellencl said:


> Did you get the closed loop strap for it? If not, do! It looks awesome!


Yes, the strap is replaced on https://shop.laco.de/de/Accessoires/Fliegerlederband2.html


----------



## CM HUNTER

The only watch company where the customer feels it necessary to tear into their brand new watch. I hate this for Laco, but at least people are still willing to buy them... even if it means taking extreme measures to know what they really bought.


----------



## diversus

CM HUNTER said:


> where the customer feels it necessary to tear into their brand new watch.


Before purchase of watch I read "Catalogue Pilot Watches". On page 8 it is written: "Padeborn (42 mm) Movement ETA 2824.2". This Catalogue is still there https://shop.laco.de/templates/xt_laco/download/Katalog_Flieger-web-2012-03.pdf.
I was sure that I buy watches with ETA movements. Then I read this thread. And I wanted to know, which movement is inside my watch. Including "extreme measures". Whether I will buy LACO further? Whether I will recommend LACO to the friends? I have no confidence of it.


----------



## diversus

watchma said:


> Depamovements.com redirects to Signstimemovements.com offers manufacturing high-end mechanical Swiss movements and complications. We offer a large variety of complications based on popular Swiss base calibres and their generics.
> 
> Premium Movement catalogue > http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_catalog.pdf


At somebody DEPA Premium catalog and DEPA Economy catalog remained? Links http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_catalog.pdf and http://www.signshosting.com/Downloads/SignS_DEPA_ECO_catalog.pdf is empty. Or somebody remembers, there are in these catalogs movements with 25 and 26 jewels?


----------



## sci

I understand that no DEPA movement are considered anymore and maybe just few watches left the factory with DEPA inside. Is Depa still around at all?


----------



## diversus

My question concerns watches which were let out earlier. These catalogs are necessary to me.


----------



## StufflerMike

I'd contact [email protected] in the first place.


----------



## Horologic

Now days, when ordering a new Paderborn directly from Laco, what are the odds of getting an ETA movement vs Sellita ? Will they tell you what movement they used in their latest production run ?


----------



## Uwe W.

It certainly won't hurt to ask and you can contact LACO directly through the LACO Shop contact form. Given the latest news from the Swatch Group I would be hoping for a Sellita-powered LACO.


----------



## CM HUNTER

Yeah the recent news of an end to ETA being used outside of the Swatch Group by 2019 is great news, and I think the availability of real competitive options in the movement marketplace will come back to bite ETA in the butt. Sellita and Soprod are better all around movements than ETA as far as I'm concerned, and the allotted time frame would give them plenty of time to expand their lines and build up their production capabilities. Your Laco would probably come with a Sellita movement, and will be better off for it. Laco would most assuredly let you know what's inside.


----------



## Horologic

CM HUNTER said:


> Yeah the recent news of an end to ETA being used outside of the Swatch Group by 2019 is great news, and I think the availability of real competitive options in the movement marketplace will come back to bite ETA in the butt. Sellita and Soprod are better all around movements than ETA as far as I'm concerned, and the allotted time frame would give them plenty of time to expand their lines and build up their production capabilities. Your Laco would probably come with a Sellita movement, and will be better off for it. Laco would most assuredly let you know what's inside.


So you guys think the Sellita is the way to go ? I have heard Soprod is a good company but thought ETA was considered better than Sellita. Or is the fact that ETA is cutting off all outsides sales make you think it will be hard to service a third party ETA movement watch in the future ? I think I've read Sellita has made movements for ETA.


----------



## watchma

Sellita are on a virtual par with ETA movements, Soprod equally so, if not a tiny cut above.

I'd take watches with movement's from any of them in a shot


----------



## StufflerMike

First of all: let us not compare companies, let us compare movements which consequently would let to compare the ETA 2824-2 with the Sellita 200, the 2836-2with the SW 240 and the SW 500 with the Valjoux 7750, the Soprad A10 equi would be the 2892-2 and the SW 300. 

SW 200 = ETA 2824
SW 220 = ETA 2834 
SW 240 = ETA 2836 
SW 300 = ETA 2892
SW 500 = ETA/Valjoux 7750.

As far as I can see there is no big difference between the ETA 2824-2 and the SW 200. Well the SW 200 counts one jewel more.


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## Watch Possum

I lost interest in this thread after the fifteenth page, when people who seem to be in charge of this forum, and others, kowtowed to the big boss from Laco. Refusing to answer questions with complete amd forthright honesty about information already released from within the company is not "transparency" according to any definition with which I'm familiar. Kissing up to a person in power, for whatever reason, is a different thing altogether. Whether it's for desired advertising revenue, personal feelings or gain, it certainly leaves me wondering about the purpose of this forum (/sub-forum ?). I don't say this as judgement, I'm just confused and disappointed. 

Frankly, while if I do buy a Laco, it will be from the sales forum here or elsewhere, my sense of disappointment with their behavior dwindled to a distinct lack of interest by the end of my reading. No pitch forks, torches nor smouldering pots of oil are necessary, as noted by Uwe, but I hope that leaving them sitting outside the gates of Castle Lacher will help them appreciate how close they've come to destroying their reputation, at least with aficionados. Myself, I'll never look at a pronouncement by Laco the same way again. 


And for those of you who believe fully the spin cast by the Laco capo here, allow me to tell you about a wonderful group of watches I have available powered solely by Moon cheese. We can't open the backs to show you though, as Earth mice come running from miles around. So you see, it's for your own safety. ;-) 

Best wishes,

Fred


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## Uwe W.

Fred, I see that you're a new member, so welcome to WUS. That certainly was quite the post; I have a couple of comments in reply:


Please observe WUS rules, in particular the one that specifies that you are required to be courteous to other members and the moderators here. We definitely encourage everyone to share their opinions, but please do so in a manner that isn't openly insulting. You will also find that there's a low tolerance on WUS for baseless allegations and wild declarations that attack the character of its members.
The LACO sub-forum is an official manufacturer's forum hosted by WUS. Once again, your comments are always appreciated here. However, we ask that you present your opinions in a respectful manner and refrain from making belittling and mocking comments. If your distaste for a company is so strong that you don't think that you can avoid such dialogue, it might be better to avoid the sub-forum altogether.


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## franksf

Not sure if it helps but i recently ordered a Paderborn and Friedrichshafen and the Paderborn has LACO written in the back while the Friedrichshafen has ETA. More demand for the Paderborn would be my guess as stock of ETA/Paderborn run out. Another explanation could be that their most expensive model is matched with Eta but i prefer the first explanation.


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## putra3007

Was about to pulled the trigger on the Paderborn and then i read this thread.

Do you think we can request Laco to open the caseback to confirm the movement before shipping?

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## Uwe W.

putra3007 said:


> Was about to pulled the trigger on the Paderborn and then i read this thread.
> 
> Do you think we can request Laco to open the caseback to confirm the movement before shipping?


The Paderborn uses a Laco 24 movement. If you read the entire thread, you'll already know that Laco now only uses either an ETA 2824.2 or a Sellita SW200 as a base movement for the Laco 24. This can be confirmed in the Laco FAQ. Of course you can send them an email and ask, but what is your concern? The two movements are on par with each other, but did you want one over the other?


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## putra3007

Uwe W. said:


> The Paderborn uses a Laco 24 movement. If you read the entire thread, you'll already know that Laco now only uses either an ETA 2824.2 or a Sellita SW200 as a base movement for the Laco 24. This can be confirmed in the Laco FAQ. Of course you can send them an email and ask, but what is your concern? The two movements are on par with each other, but did you want one over the other?


I am familiar with ETA movements but never had a Sellita thence am not sure of its reliability/accuracy. In terms of movement pricing, are they similar? If both are on par in the same terms and pricing, then obviously I would not have any concern at all. It's a go then.


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## Uwe W.

putra3007 said:


> I am familiar with ETA movements but never had a Sellita thence am not sure of its reliability/accuracy. In terms of movement pricing, are they similar? If both are on par in the same terms and pricing, then obviously I would not have any concern at all. It's a go then.


Sellita has been making movements since the early '50s and up to around 10 years ago, Sellita was an ETA sub-contractor manufacturing parts and movements for the company. So yes, you have nothing to be concerned about. If you perform an internet search on the subject you'll find days worth of reading, enough anyway to alleviate any concern you might have about which movement is being used in your Paderborn.


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## StufflerMike

From a 2088 post here on WUS:

May I invite you to use the forum´s search function, just type "sellita" and you´ll get tons of threads.

SW 200 = ETA 2824
SW 220 = ETA 2834 
SW 240 = ETA 2836 
SW 300 = ETA 2892
SW 500 = ETA/Valjoux 7750.

Sellita for years worked in ETA movements. The SW 200 is a clone of the ETA 2824-2 with just one jewel more and some minor differences. You might expect the same performance.

Not fewer than 350 customers have signed up, with production verging on a million units. Sellita estimates that its movements equip around a third of Swiss mechanical watches in the (near) future.

Brands that already use Sellita: Oris, Meistersinger, Nivrel, Limes, Invicta, Steinhart/Debraufre, Ocean7, Bathys, Schaumburg, Arctos, Nauticfish, MarcelloC, Chase Durer ( I am sure I forgot some ).

Mühle already cooperates with Sellita. In 2005 Mühle CEO Hans Jürgen Mühle invested about 640.000 Euro in order to enlarge the production facilities at Glashütte.
The new space was needed for the GUROFA - Glashütter Uhrenrowerkefabrik GmbH - a joint-venture of Mühle Glashütte GmbH, Nautische Instrumente & Feinmechanik and Sellita Watch Co. SA. The name GUROFA was chosen very well because it links to the old Glashütte watchmaking tradition of the UROFA. Mühle and Sellita invested 5.800.000 Euro into their new machinery and they are now on the way to become a manufactury. The total construction time needed 6 month to establish the necessary premises on about 700 square meters. 17 watchmakers found new work places.
Both, Sellita and Mühle, received their movements and parts from ETA which decided to change their policy. From 2010 ETA will not sell parts to brands outside the Swatch holding. Only complete movements will be available from then on.
At the official opening Miguel Garcia, CEO of Sellita, pointed out that the launch of the GUROFA was a consequent step to substitute a supplier.

Now that almost 6 years have passed I would not worry about the quality of Sellita movements.


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## CM HUNTER

putra3007 said:


> I am familiar with ETA movements but never had a Sellita thence am not sure of its reliability/accuracy. In terms of movement pricing, are they similar? If both are on par in the same terms and pricing, then obviously I would not have any concern at all. It's a go then.


Sellita is not a problem at all (would actually prefer a Sellita to be in my watch). The reason I'd want the case back of my Laco to be removed is to confirm that a DEPA product is no where to be found. That's where your concern should be. Laco kinda sorta eased concerns about them no longer using (or considering using) DEPA products, but wasn't very convincing in doing so for my liking.


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## putra3007

Thanks Uwe, Mike and CM for the clarification and explanation.

Its a go. Happy New Year to all Comrades.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## putra3007

An interesting thread at the TAG forum which started back in 2010 on the same issue to share, in case some comrades didn't spot this thread.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f25/sellita-sw200-vs-eta-2824-thread-358081.html


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## CM HUNTER

putra3007 said:


> An interesting thread at the TAG forum which started back in 2010 on the same issue to share, in case some comrades didn't spot this thread.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f25/sellita-sw200-vs-eta-2824-thread-358081.html


That article doesn't really tie in to this thread because they are only discussing the differences between two different Swiss movement manufacturers (yet again forgetting about Soprod as an option), and not how just putting a made up in-house designation for a movement kinda leaves you in the dark as far as knowing what movement you are getting. That article assumes you will get a true Swiss made movement, but as you can tell from this Laco thread, DEPA comes across as Swiss made, but at certain levels, can be anything but. That point, more than anything, made this particular thread 26 pages long.


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## mocapitane

So if you think your getting movt A, you may end up with movt B. Is this what i'm to conclude after more than 250 post?


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## CM HUNTER

mocapitane said:


> So if you think your getting movt A, you may end up with movt B. Is this what i'm to conclude after more than 250 post?


Well basically. But what came to light during the course of the thread was the potential use of movement F. If either movement A (ETA) or movement B (Sellita) is used, and you want to call it Laco movement so and so, then really no big deal. But, when Laco movement so and so has a chance of being movement F (DEPA), then there's the problem. That coupled with the overall lack of transparency from Laco is what the 250 posts is about.


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## mocapitane

Transparency is the key which appears to be lacking . Unfortunately if I choose to ever get another Laco I will have to send emails to ensure I know exactly what movt will be in the case. After all, if i want an ETA movt( for example) and nothing else then I want to ensure I know what is in the case and not be surprised.
Would you expect a lucky dip from an other watch manufacturer you have come to appreciate?


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## StufflerMike

mocapitane said:


> Transparency is the key which appears to be lacking . Unfortunately if I choose to ever get another Laco I will have to send emails to ensure I know exactly what movt will be in the case. After all, if i want an ETA movt( for example) and nothing else then I want to ensure I know what is in the case and not be surprised.
> Would you expect a lucky dip from an other watch manufacturer you have come to appreciate?


Due to the tightening of ETA movements by Swatch Group - https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/swatch-stop-selling-eta-movements-outside-companies-2010-a-32717.html - there are a lot of manufacturers now offering this (ETA) or that (Sellita) pending availability of "this" (read ETA).


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## Uwe W.

mocapitane said:


> Transparency is the key which appears to be lacking .


Do you get this "transparency" you're after from other watch manufacturers?



mocapitane said:


> Would you expect a lucky dip from an other watch manufacturer you have come to appreciate?


Not sure what that means. However, what many of those who commented in this thread don't seem to realize is that it has become common practice for watch manufacturers to describe the movements in their watches using their own designations. And most of those other manufacturers give no indication at all as to what those movements actually are. Reading through this thread you would think that Laco was the first and only company to rename a movement. It's a good thing that most watch collectors don't show the same interest for what's under the hood of their cars, or inside any of the other consumer products they buy, because then they would really know what a lack of transparency is. ;-)


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## CM HUNTER

Again, transparency for a smaller company like Laco would actually seem pretty easy to accomplish. Many that replied felt this way for a reason. It's not so much that they say Laco 24 movement = ETA 2824/SW200 (been done by others of course), it's the fact that they changed this out of the blue leaving you to ASSUME initially that this is what you were getting. If at any point in time ETA movements get scarce, I don't see it being a big issue for people to accept the Sellita as an equal movement for the same price. I've already seen other brands say that you will either get a ETA or Sellita movement when you receive your watch. Laco could do the same... it's not that hard.

But to sneak a lesser compromise type of player like DEPA in there (and I say sneak because it only came to light when a poster inquired about it, not because Laco disclosed it to begin with) and pass it off as a Laco 24, is unacceptable (not saying that they actually ever used these movements, but then again who knows?) The fact that such an option came up as a potential Laco 24 pass, and putting it vaguely under the Swiss Made umbrella like ETA and Sellita when it's anything but, is pretty shady.

So, there's lack of transparency from Laco in two ways: 
1st Changing to Laco 24 (etc...) without initially explaining what movements these designations represented. You had to assume at first that it corresponded with an ETA 2824 (but you could get a Sellita as well) but didn't know why they called it a Laco 24... was it modified etc...
2nd Introducing a whole new movement manufacture that nobody was familiar with (DEPA) without disclosing this, only to be found out because someone questioned what these new "Laco movements" were.


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## Uwe W.

CM HUNTER said:


> But to sneak a lesser compromise type of player like DEPA in there (and I say sneak because it only came to light when a poster inquired about it, not because Laco disclosed it to begin with) and pass it off as a Laco 24, is unacceptable (not saying that they actually ever used these movements, but then again who knows?) The fact that such an option came up as a potential Laco 24 pass, and putting it vaguely under the Swiss Made umbrella like ETA and Sellita when it's anything but, is pretty shady.


Those were some pretty defamatory comments, ones that are not only undeserved, but way out of line. You certainly don't know anyone at Laco personally, because if you did there's no way you would casually throw around words such as sneaky and shady to describe them.

Let's get to bones - and truth - of this thing. ETA, as everyone already knows, is forcing manufacturers that use its movements to find other sources of supply. As a result this is a tumultuous time in the watch making industry, and the unpredictability of movement supply has caused _*many*_ manufacturers to use their own movement designations. Doing this obviously allows a company to use whatever movements they have available to them without constantly needing to change published specs, but more than that, the in-house movement number incorporates any modifications the company might have made to the base movement used for its watches.

Laco followed this path, and was in no way on the leading edge of the trend. For its part, Laco decided to use Sellita as an alternative movement - and for a very brief period - a movement from DEPA, but _only_ after its watchmakers had thoroughly tested the quality and durability of the movement. After a significant investment by Laco into the proofing of the movement, it was found to be an acceptable replacement to those being supplied by ETA; Laco warrants its watches, and clearly it felt confident enough in the DEPA movement to use them in its watches.

Did Laco notify anyone of this? Of course not. Then again, I don't recall Laco mentioning the use of Sellita movements either - ironically something that people seem less concerned about. Similarly, I don't recall having been informed by any other watch manufacturer that uses its own movement designations that it was swapping ETA movements for something else too.

This entire issue of transparency is ridiculous. Everyone scrambles to make sure that the watches they buy come fitted with ETA movements, and yet ETA has never shown any transparency when it comes to the source of the components used inside its movements. It's hypocritical that some buyers reel at the thought of having a DEPA-powered watch because it might use Chinese-sourced parts when the exact same thing can be said for ETA movements.

The second nail in the DEPA coffin is that many people are only comfortable buying a brand name they know and will subsequently dismiss out of hand something they're unfamiliar with. Of all of those here who slammed the use of DEPA movements, how many have had any experience at all with the them? None. I don't recall reading any statements detailing that there was something specifically wrong with DEPA movements, just a lot of complaints that it wasn't a real Swiss movement. Do they even realise what it takes for a movement to be labelled Swiss Made? An ETA movement can consist of 90 percent Chinese-made parts, and still be labelled Swiss Made providing ETA valued the remaining 10 percent of actual Swiss parts high enough.

For my money Laco demonstrated due diligence by thoroughly testing the replacement movement it wanted to use in order to maintain the quality of its watches. It had its reputation on the line, the quality of its watches to protect, the happiness of its customers to consider. Some here might consider what Laco did to be "shady", but really the _only _thing that Laco did wrong in this scenario was to underestimate the inflexibility of some of its customers to change. And these demands for transparency? In what world should a private company be expected to throw open its factory doors in order to satisfy the general public? Apply your demands for transparency to every product you buy, and be honest about it, because what you're getting from Laco is above average in that department.

We're all free to apply whatever criteria we choose when purchasing a watch. If you want to know which exact movement is in your watch, you're free to ask. And if you don't like the answer, or don't get one at all, you don't have to buy that watch. But don't accuse someone of underhanded business practices just because they didn't disseminate enough information for your liking.

And one final thing, which might come as a shock but will shed some light on Laco's actions. The people using WUS do not represent the majority of watch buyers. A WIS is not representative of the average watch buyer. Most people have never even heard of ETA, and those are the people that manufacturers and dealers are most familiar with. I'm sure that those at Laco were genuinely surprised by the backlash and squabbling in this thread, the comments that put into perspective are from a very small - but vocal - minority of its customers. And to prove the company's merits, not only did the CEO offer an explanation here, Laco has since listed on its website which movements are represented by its movement numbers. I'd be happy if someone could point me to other examples of watch manufacturers providing that information, because _none_ of the brands that I'm most familiar with do.


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## CM HUNTER

Uwe W. said:


> Those were some pretty defamatory comments, ones that are not only undeserved, but way out of line. You certainly don't know anyone at Laco personally, because if you did there's no way you would casually throw around words such as sneaky and shady to describe them.
> 
> Let's get to bones - and truth - of this thing. ETA, as everyone already knows, is forcing manufacturers that use its movements to find other sources of supply. As a result this is a tumultuous time in the watch making industry, and the unpredictability of movement supply has caused _*many*_ manufacturers to use their own movement designations. Doing this obviously allows a company to use whatever movements they have available to them without constantly needing to change published specs, but more than that, the in-house movement number incorporates any modifications the company might have made to the base movement used for its watches.
> 
> Laco followed this path, and was in no way on the leading edge of the trend. For its part, Laco decided to use Sellita as an alternative movement - and for a very brief period - a movement from DEPA, but _only_ after its watchmakers had thoroughly tested the quality and durability of the movement. After a significant investment by Laco into the proofing of the movement, it was found to be an acceptable replacement to those being supplied by ETA; Laco warrants its watches, and clearly it felt confident enough in the DEPA movement to use them in its watches.
> 
> Did Laco notify anyone of this? Of course not. Then again, I don't recall Laco mentioning the use of Sellita movements either - ironically something that people seem less concerned about. Similarly, I don't recall having been informed by any other watch manufacturer that uses its own movement designations that it was swapping ETA movements for something else too.
> 
> This entire issue of transparency is ridiculous. Everyone scrambles to make sure that the watches they buy come fitted with ETA movements, and yet ETA has never shown any transparency when it comes to the source of the components used inside its movements. It's hypocritical that some buyers reel at the thought of having a DEPA-powered watch because it might use Chinese-sourced parts when the exact same thing can be said for ETA movements.
> 
> The second nail in the DEPA coffin is that many people are only comfortable buying a brand name they know and will subsequently dismiss out of hand something they're unfamiliar with. Of all of those here who slammed the use of DEPA movements, how many have had any experience at all with the them? None. I don't recall reading any statements detailing that there was something specifically wrong with DEPA movements, just a lot of complaints that it wasn't a real Swiss movement. Do they even realise what it takes for a movement to be labelled Swiss Made? An ETA movement can consist of 90 percent Chinese-made parts, and still be labelled Swiss Made providing ETA valued the remaining 10 percent of actual Swiss parts high enough.
> 
> For my money Laco demonstrated due diligence by thoroughly testing the replacement movement it wanted to use in order to maintain the quality of its watches. It had its reputation on the line, the quality of its watches to protect, the happiness of its customers to consider. Some here might consider what Laco did to be "shady", but really the _only _thing that Laco did wrong in this scenario was to underestimate the inflexibility of some of its customers to change. And these demands for transparency? In what world should a private company be expected to throw open its factory doors in order to satisfy the general public? Apply your demands for transparency to every product you buy, and be honest about it, because what you're getting from Laco is above average in that department.
> 
> We're all free to apply whatever criteria we choose when purchasing a watch. If you want to know which exact movement is in your watch, you're free to ask. And if you don't like the answer, or don't get one at all, you don't have to buy that watch. But don't accuse someone of underhanded business practices just because they didn't disseminate enough information for your liking.
> 
> And one final thing, which might come as a shock but will shed some light on Laco's actions. The people using WUS do not represent the majority of watch buyers. A WIS is not representative of the average watch buyer. Most people have never even heard of ETA, and those are the people that manufacturers and dealers are most familiar with. I'm sure that those at Laco were genuinely surprised by the backlash and squabbling in this thread, the comments that put into perspective are from a very small - but vocal - minority of its customers. And to prove the company's merits, not only did the CEO offer an explanation here, Laco has since listed on its website which movements are represented by its movement numbers. I'd be happy if someone could point me to other examples of watch manufacturers providing that information, because _none_ of the brands that I'm most familiar with do.


I would expect no different kind of reply from you Uwe.

I think it's simply not too much to ask for a manufacturer to clearly tell you what you are plopping your hard earned money down for (upwards of $1000 or more). That's just the norm. Not something to the effect of "well it's Swiss Made so everything's fine".

I don't know anyone at Laco, it's a fact. But, what is also a fact is that I never called anyone there shady or sneaky... I said their actions in the way they did this little movement situation were.

If people wanted a Chinese movement, that's fine. They'd buy a Seagull or something. If they are told that their watch has a Swiss or Japenese movement in it, and yet it contains a movement from China, then that's wrong... especially when the price stays unchanged. What non-WUS types do at least know is how to read, and if they read that they get a certain watch containing a certain movement for a certain price, then that's what they should expect to get.

Just because standards allow for a certain amount of China to be in a Swiss movement doesn't mean that the companies themselves allow such an amount. The fact is, Sellita and ETA have factories located in Switzerland. An assumption that any part of their movements have Chinese parts is only that...an assumption, and nothing more. I'll stick to the fact of where the factories are.

Bottom line is, I only say these things about Laco because I like them, and I want to be comfortable in making a purchase from them. Despite certain words I've used (against their ACTIONS in THIS PARTICULAR MATTER ONLY and NOT AGAINST ANY INDIVIDUAL AT LACO), I only did so to get the point across that they could have handled this situation better. At the end of the day, I wasn't the OP of this thread, nor was I the one that did the digging to find out about DEPA. I just voiced my own personal opinion about the situation... something that seems more and more frowned upon here at WUS.

Nothing in this post would stop me from buying a Laco piece though. I would buy a flieger assuming I have a Sellita or ETA movement, and would be happy. If after five years when I send it to my watchmaker it turns out I had a DEPA in it all along, then no big deal. I'd simply have my watchmaker install an ETA or Sellita movement in it while it's opened up.

Overall, I don't think that this was a bash Laco type of thread at all. I think the OP's curiosity simply led to more and more details that affected some, and it was all unintended from the innocent original question asked. I think it's fair for watch consumers to be curious and ask questions, and I also think it's just as fair for the company to plainly and clearly answer those questions. If this thread got heated, I think it must be because the latter suffered a little. After all, it didn't just happen to get this far for nothing.


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## mocapitane

Uwe W. said:


> Do you get this "transparency" you're after from other watch manufacturers?
> 
> Not sure what that means. However, what many of those who commented in this thread don't seem to realize is that it has become common practice for watch manufacturers to describe the movements in their watches using their own designations. And most of those other manufacturers give no indication at all as to what those movements actually are. Reading through this thread you would think that Laco was the first and only company to rename a movement. It's a good thing that most watch collectors don't show the same interest for what's under the hood of their cars, or inside any of the other consumer products they buy, because then they would really know what a lack of transparency is. ;-)


To answer your question, last time i bought a Japanese watch it had a movt as described by the manufacturer. So i knew what I was getting.


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## putra3007

A bit off topic here but relevant. Few models price up in particular the Paderborn.

Price hike due to "shortage" of movement? Its quite steep. Anyone knows the reason?

Would definitely wants the company to confirm the actual movement (be it 2824 or sw200) before pushing the buy button albeit relabelled as Laco24.

Just my personal thought.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## logan2z

Although I think that this subject has been beaten to death here, I do see a lot of positives as a result. For one thing I think it made the folks at Laco acutely aware of how seriously its WIS customers take the movement issue. Also, it proved how seriously Laco takes its customers concerns. They listened (were perhaps surprised at the reaction) and took steps to quell the concerns raised both here on the forum and through updates to their web site. The fact that this dialog was allowed to take place on the official Laco forum tells me something about the integrity of the folks who run the company and the forum. If they truly had something to hide or were purposefully being 'shady' they could have easily locked the thread or removed it completely - as I've seen done on several official forums. 

Everyone needs to make their own choices as to which companies they feel comfortable dealing with, but I personally wouldn't let a minor misstep (that has since been adequately addressed) keep me from buying a Laco watch. In my experience, the company's products and customer service have proved to be exemplary.


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## Der Amf

Little footnote: when I was deciding which German watch to buy I found this long thread very helpful, and contributed to my decision to buy a Nivrel, which specified an ETA. I look forward to one day owning a watch with a Sellita, but I will be sure that happens through a choice I make, not through chance. 

As for Depa, I will happily buy a watch with a Chinese movement - I have three - so long as the prices reflect that. 

When I chose to buy a German watch, it was because I felt that German manufacture was something worth paying a premium for. Similarly I chose a watch with an ETA movement because I felt the price premium was justified. In both cases accumulated trust led to my happily paying more money.

Trust is a delicate thing. Reading about the Depa episode lessened my general confidence in the Laco brand, and as a result I did not consider any of their watches.

I hope this example helps illustrate some of the points made throughout this post. Thanks to all of you for discussing the issue so thoroughly.


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## Moffett

I hope you enjoy your new watch. 
I love my Laco. Not because it has an ETA movement in it, but rather because I find the case design to be fantastic. The history behind the company is also a very desirable attribute for me. 
There are many watches available powered by an ETA movement at a much cheaper price. But honestly I'd rather have a true pice of history powered by a Depa movement than one of them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StufflerMike

Well, to each his own, what is a true piece of history with a movement of dubious origin ? Does it give you no food for thought when you realize that the Depa catalogues have vanished from their download site since long.


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## Der Amf

stuffler said:


> Does it give you no food for thought when you realize that the Depa catalogues have vanished from their download site since long.


Oh, I was sure there was no danger that there would be a Depa in the watch, but I couldn't shake the feeling that once a company that has cut corners in one way, it is capable of cutting corners in another.

This is why I say trust is fragile. I was looking to spend the same amount as I had spent on my previous five watches put together, and in return I wanted as much peace of mind as possible.


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## Uwe W.

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> once a company that has cut corners in one way, it is capable of cutting corners in another.


Just out of curiosity, have you applied that same philosophy to your evaluation of ETA? You are of course aware that ETA uses Chinese-made parts in its movements, but do you know how many parts? Or even what percentage of the total parts in the movement are made in China? You probably don't, because ETA refuses to say. And this leaves me confused; why have those complaining in this thread not also taken ETA to task for its so-called lack of transparency, or accused the company of cost-cutting.

However, sticking to the point of your accusation that LACO is guilty of cost-cutting, would you mind sharing your proof of this? How much does LACO spend on ETA movements versus what it _would have_ spent on DEPA movements (or even what it spends on Sellita for that matter)? What are the exact details and specifications of the DEPA movement that was intended to be used? And in your cost-cutting calculations, have you factored in LACO's R&D costs associated with introducing a new movement into its collections, movements that were carefully vetted beforehand and deemed to be on par with ETA?


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## Moffett

I do care about the movement that powers the watch I buy. Only a fool wouldn't. That's why I elected to spend more money and go for a mechanical model over a quartz option. 
The problems originated with the unfortunate fact that ETA is no longer supplying movements to boutique brands. The published reasoning behind this move was to break up their monopoly and create a market place for new manufactures to compete. One such company that has spawned from this is DEPA. 
As a result of ETA no longer being a viable option for their watches Laco was looking in to some of the new companies to source it's parts from. They vigorously tested the DEPA movements and found them to be equal in quality and a viable alternative to ETA. So they decided to use them. 
I guess in a perfect world Laco could have created a new product line for for each one of the manufactures of their movements. And perhaps even listed the newer branded units at a lower price point. Also probably the ETA ones at increased prices as a result of supply and demand economics. 
The plain facts though are that in no way did Laco act even in a remote way "dishonest" or "shady". They haven't pulled the wool over anyone's eyes. Everyone's else already did that to themselves. 


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## Der Amf

I wrote my post as I believed it illustrated points about consumer confidence that this thread had raised, ie. in a spirit of helpfulness, with gratitude for the thoroughness of this very long thread.

I'm not sure I want to respond to anything written with that much heat; in any case my points about how perception creates value were made quite clearly enough without my repeating them, so off I'll pop.

[EDIT: am still bothered by one thing - I said "*I couldn't shake the feeling that *once a company that has cut corners in one way, it is capable of cutting corners in another", which makes it clear I was talking about the emotional dimension of assessing this information. Having slept on it, I find the aggressive response I received, having made what was an attempt at making a thoughtful contribution, unpleasant, and I raise my eyebrows at it coming from a moderator]


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## CM HUNTER

Moffett said:


> I do care about the movement that powers the watch I buy. Only a fool wouldn't. That's why I elected to spend more money and go for a mechanical model over a quartz option.
> The problems originated with the unfortunate fact that ETA is no longer supplying movements to boutique brands. The published reasoning behind this move was to break up their monopoly and create a market place for new manufactures to compete. One such company that has spawned from this is DEPA.
> As a result of ETA no longer being a viable option for their watches Laco was looking in to some of the new companies to source it's parts from. They vigorously tested the DEPA movements and found them to be equal in quality and a viable alternative to ETA. So they decided to use them.
> I guess in a perfect world Laco could have created a new product line for for each one of the manufactures of their movements. And perhaps even listed the newer branded units at a lower price point. Also probably the ETA ones at increased prices as a result of supply and demand economics.
> The plain facts though are that in no way did Laco act even in a remote way "dishonest" or "shady". They haven't pulled the wool over anyone's eyes. Everyone's else already did that to themselves.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Simple fact is, Laco never mentioned once that DEPA could possibly be used when they switched over to the in-house coding of movements. If they would have mentioned that it was a possible movement to be used under one of the codes, I don't think there would be any "controversy" in the matter... but again, no mention until someone asked. And if you look back through the thread, nobody on these forums even knew what the heck DP (turned out to be DEPA) was.

No upfront mention of an unknown movement manufacturer and just sticking it in under an abstract coding, then only coming clean about that unheard of movement manufacturer being a possibility only after being questioned about it, call that what you will.


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## StufflerMike

Regarding the use of Made in China parts....

ETA has 15 factories in CH, the important facilities are located in Grenchen, Bettlach, Fontainemelon, Mendrisio, Sion as well as in the Vallée de Joux befinden. There is another factory in Pforzheim, two in France, one in China, one in Malaysia and one in Thailand. ETA emphasizes that parts/movements/watches produced in PRoC, Malaysia and Thailand are only used for products without »Swiss Made«. Please correct me, if this statement is wrong.


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## CM HUNTER

stuffler said:


> Regarding the use of Made in China parts....
> 
> ETA has 15 factories in CH, the important facilities are located in Grenchen, Bettlach, Fontainemelon, Mendrisio, Sion as well as in the Vallée de Joux befinden. There is another factory in Pforzheim, two in France, one in China, one in Malaysia and one in Thailand. ETA emphasizes that parts/movements/watches produced in PRoC, Malaysia and Thailand are only used for products without »Swiss Made«. Please correct me, if this statement is wrong.


That statement is what I've always known to be true as well.


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## Uwe W.

ETA owns a factory in China. And ETA promises that none of the parts made in that factory will end up in its "Swiss Made" movements. My apologies, I must be completely wrong then.
;-)


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## Moffett

What if information was released that stated some of the parts of a 2824-2 were manufactured in China? Would that instantly make ETA a less desirable brand and also unworthy of being placed in a watch that costs nearly $1,000? 
Is the location of a buildings foundation the most important factor in the quality of the products it creates? 


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## CM HUNTER

The words "what if" are equal to hypotheticals and nothing more.

And, does it matter where the foundation of the building is... it comes down to who are in those buildings and their standards. If the Swiss employees from ETA are the ones inside of the China located factories, than no not a big deal. But, don't think that's the case... that's why the Swiss Made standard isn't implied with those particular ETA products. Why do you think that is... the answer is simply because there is a difference in the quality level of the product. Hence the problem with DEPA.


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## Moffett

CM HUNTER said:


> The words "what if" are equal to hypotheticals and nothing more.
> 
> there is a difference in the quality level of the product. Hence the problem with DEPA.


Your assumption to the quality level of DEPA movements are nothing more than hypotheticals.

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## CM HUNTER

Moffett said:


> Your assumption to the quality level of DEPA movements are nothing more than hypotheticals.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Concerning the quality level... you're right. But I wouldn't want to find out. If I wanted a Chinese movement, I would seek one out. I definitely don't want one, much less to pay Swiss prices for one.

I don't think anybody is actually going to argue the quality differences between Swiss Made versus Chinese Made... not only with watch movements, but with anything for that matter. I know what I personally value in a watch movement, and Chinese isn't it (I value one being passed off as Swiss Made even less). Do you think there's a reason Laco didn't state that DEPA offers Chinese products, and instead just put it under the Swiss umbrella? Could it be that they could be concerned that their customers wouldn't value it either. The fact that they did a quick about-face when they received a backlash from their customers gives you your answer.


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## vipereaper30

Does anyone actually know how many Lacos are out there with depa engines? I just purchased my first Laco and am nervous it may have a sub par (depa) movement. Is it as simple as emailing Laco with the serial number to find out? After reading this thread I feel like I need to open the watch up and inspect myself in order to be 100% sure. Not a good move by Laco IMO. 

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## sci

The Depa is 21000 beats per hour, while ETA/Sellita are 28800. You can easy differentiate by ticking sound and/or the smoothness of the second hand move.


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## vipereaper30

Thanks Sci, so the depa will be louder and have a less-smooth sweep? 

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## sci

Not loder, but will tick on bigger intervals, i.e. slower. You can find some video in youtube with ETA 2824 and to compare the sound (the frequency of ticking).


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## Packman

The circular banter on this thread aside, this information was most helpful in steering me towards another watchmaker for a Flieger. At least it served some purpose. I refuse to buy a watch without disclosure as to its movement.


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## Leo Rstad

i cant believe this ........im so happy ir ead up on laco before making a purchase.not telling what movement you put in a 1000 dollar watch?? are you ¤"#"# kidding me. you will loose EVERY old customer from this and the only people youll fool are non watch interested fools. how is the second hand value you think if i decide to sell it? "i think it has a swiss movement" 

you wont get my money with this, thinking your customers are that stupid....


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## Uwe W.

Leo Rstad said:


> i cant believe this ........im so happy ir ead up on laco before making a purchase.*not telling what movement you put in a 1000 dollar watch??* are you ¤"#"# kidding me. you will loose EVERY old customer from this and the only people youll fool are non watch interested fools. how is the second hand value you think if i decide to sell it? "i think it has a swiss movement"
> 
> you wont get my money with this, thinking your customers are that stupid....


New to watches? As ETA continues to choke supply, more and more manufacturers are renaming the movements they use, which incidentally is not a new practice. Many companies producing watches well north of $1000 have been doing it for a very long time, so this _rant_ of yours can be applied to many manufacturers. And you can trust that Laco does not consider its customers to be stupid.


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## gthompson34

Another uwe rant on the subject. Shame on Laco and any manufacturer who follows this practice.


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## Leo Rstad

hey.

i read the rest of the thread after my reply, and it seems the situation became a bit better. still, not knowing what movement is in a watch is not an option for me. ive heard eta has problems delivering, still steinhart and stowa delivers eta (correct me if im wrong) in both cheaper and the same price range. if laco cant get enough eta movements, then it should be stated in the shop and i think it should be an option to rather have a long delivery time if you really want the ETA. im definitely not new to watches, but rather picky.


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## Woldemar

I like to see Laco with Soprod movement. Soprod make far more better movements than ETA or Sellita. Soprod is more expensive but Steinhart can offer decent watch with Soprod A10 only 490 €. I know that A10 is Automatic movement, but it has durable handwind mechanism.


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## Uwe W.

gthompson34 said:


> Shame on Laco and any manufacturer who follows this practice.


It would be a long list of manufacturers on your shame list, but that's really not the issue here, is it? You didn't have to wait for months for an opportunity to take a little cheap shot at me; my PM inbox is always available to you.


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## gthompson34

I limit my shame list to those that use or modify inferior movements such as depa. I'd think you'd understand that point. I take offence to you continuing to put down posts that criticize laco for there moves. It would be nice to put this one to bed, but I feel obliged to put some common sense to your opinions. There is a huge difference to a modified eta and laco's use of depa, their reluctant admission to say the base is depa, and your opinion on the subject.


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## Marrin

It took me exactly 48 minutes from falling in love with a 36mm Navy Laco to losing my love and trust of Laco thru this thread!

But the upside is that it made me appreciate my "cheap" and "poor", but non the less "in-house" made 4 year old Seiko 5 watch, that hasnt missed a beat in those 4 years, even more and made me realize it was the best $65 ever spent.

I may return to this brands once they start being more transparent!!

P.S.
I dont understand why they dont produce their own movements especially if they used to!!
Look at russian brands, such as Luch, they make their own movement in house (although a ladies watch movement) and offer it for $60!!

It is possible to make an in house affordable movement, especially if you already have watchmakers under your roof (and Laco has, if they really are decorating and regulating movements by themselves)!

Watch industry has become a big cloud of smoke unfortunately, where everything is possible and nothing is clear!!


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## sci

Laco gave up from DePa movements quite fast. I don't know why this still hangs on them. From my point of view it wasn't a good move, but they react quite quickly on the feedback and fix it. I am not a Laco advocate, but you guys, who step back from the brand, only loose opportunity to have original and nice watch with incomparable look & feel. Transparency is also in line for me, as they declare the mapping between their movement enumeration and the third-party movements behind - look here:
https://shop.laco.de/de/FAQ.html
What about Breitling, IWC, FC, Junghans, Longines? They all use third-party movement and have internal designations for them. Do you know such table?

As far the in-house movements are concern, I also have Vostoks and Luch (come on, the 1801 is nice, but in no case movement for example as main workhorse for a wide range of watches). Servicing rare and unknown movement, without real availability of spare parts, could be a nightmare later. Seiko 5 and Orient 3 star is mass-enought not to face this issue, but Laco is more boutique manufacturer.


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## Porsena

I have to say that I am less opposed now


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## JimBass

This is an old thread but I have read all 30 pages of posts because I have been seriously considering buying a Laco. I don't fault Laco for trying out other movements due to the ETA supply problem but they should have disclosed the trial use of the depa movements in one, some, or all models (still unclear to me which is the case) so that buyers could choose the movement they wanted. By not disclosing the trial use they created doubt in the mind of potential buyers. When in doubt a lot of people, including me, will go elsewhere rather than take a chance.

Offering to inspect the watch and replace the movement is good damage control by Laco but such control should never have been needed and it is inconvenient for the owner of the watch. I would like to buy a Laco but I want to know exactly what movement is in the model I'm buying. And I don't want to have to send it back to the company to be sure I'm not getting one of the depa's they released into the wild.

On another note, and I'll admit my lack of knowledge on the subject, don't watch companies give serial numbers to every watch and keep track of which movement goes into each watch? If they do, then why can't Laco simply list the serial numbers of the watches that received the depa movements? Then the would only have to open up the watches where people wanted the movement replaced.


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## StufflerMike

JimBass said:


> This is an old thread but I have read all 30 pages of posts because I have been seriously considering buying a Laco. I don't fault Laco for trying out other movements due to the ETA supply problem but they should have disclosed the trial use of the depa movements in one, some, or all models (still unclear to me which is the case) so that buyers could choose the movement they wanted. By not disclosing the trial use they created doubt in the mind of potential buyers. When in doubt a lot of people, including me, will go elsewhere rather than take a chance.
> 
> Offering to inspect the watch and replace the movement is good damage control by Laco but such control should never have been needed and it is inconvenient for the owner of the watch. I would like to buy a Laco but I want to know exactly what movement is in the model I'm buying. And I don't want to have to send it back to the company to be sure I'm not getting one of the depa's they released into the wild.
> 
> On another note, and I'll admit my lack of knowledge on the subject, don't watch companies give serial numbers to every watch and keep track of which movement goes into each watch? If they do, then why can't Laco simply list the serial numbers of the watches that received the depa movements? Then the would only have to open up the watches where people wanted the movement replaced.


Since Laco stopped using Depa long time ago and all movements Laco is currently using are listed in the FAQ it isn't an issue anymore methinks. Only when buying used you might come across a Depa fitted Laco. The chance is nominal.


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## JimBass

Thanks, Mike. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my concerns.


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## Laco Pforzheim

JimBass said:


> This is an old thread but I have read all 30 pages of posts because I have been seriously considering buying a Laco. I don't fault Laco for trying out other movements due to the ETA supply problem but they should have disclosed the trial use of the depa movements in one, some, or all models (still unclear to me which is the case) so that buyers could choose the movement they wanted. By not disclosing the trial use they created doubt in the mind of potential buyers. When in doubt a lot of people, including me, will go elsewhere rather than take a chance.
> 
> Offering to inspect the watch and replace the movement is good damage control by Laco but such control should never have been needed and it is inconvenient for the owner of the watch. I would like to buy a Laco but I want to know exactly what movement is in the model I'm buying. And I don't want to have to send it back to the company to be sure I'm not getting one of the depa's they released into the wild.
> 
> On another note, and I'll admit my lack of knowledge on the subject, don't watch companies give serial numbers to every watch and keep track of which movement goes into each watch? If they do, then why can't Laco simply list the serial numbers of the watches that received the depa movements? Then the would only have to open up the watches where people wanted the movement replaced.


Thank you for your message and for sure we understand your concerns about the movement inside...
But as Mike already mentioned, we don't use this depa movements any more and you can be sure when ordering directly thorugh our shop, you only have the movements you can find in our FAQ (thanks Mike for already mentioning! :-!)
All currently used movements can be found here: https://shop.laco.de/de/FAQ.html

Best regards
Sarah


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## brettone2002

This gives the edge to Stowa for me..


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## StufflerMike

brettone2002 said:


> This gives the edge to Stowa for me..


Why's that ? I mean, you are answering to a 4 yrs old thread and a lot has happend in the meantime.


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