# Elgin watch,navigation Type A-11 Hack WW2



## river rat

Elgin A-11 Navigation wrist watch,Hack,16 jewel,grade 539,Serial no T786238 year movement made 1944 case marks say's 1945 that should of been when it was issued.It was used by the US Army Air Corps and to me it looks mint like it was never used.


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## atxtj

Awesome find!:-! I'd like to own one as well.:think:


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## Crusader

Wow, what a watch! :-!

And in a pristine state, too.

What a treasure!

I am intrigued by several things: 
- is there any lume on the dial, or is it the standard non-lumed version?
- I had not noticed the subdued printing of the maker's name on the dial before. Is this a common feature for A-11s?
- is the strap original, too?
- Do you know wjhat the cas eis made of? nickle-plated brass? steel? Is it polished?

And finally, could you add a profile shot of the watch, by any chance, and dimensions?

Wow again, what a watch ...


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## TZAG

Awesome!


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## river rat

Hi crusader here is a side photo of watch, this is the standard none lume version I had a waltham A-11 that had the lume I gave it to my Dad on Father's day last year he told me in WW2 thats what the Navy gave him I found out the navy issued waltham's with lume so I had it cleaned and gave it to him but let's get back to the Elgin I don't know if the subdued was common.And that is a WW2 watch band,the case is made by keystone Base metal,Size 8/0s


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## Crusader

Thank you very much, river rat!

Good to see the drilled-through lugs, and the symmetry of the coin-edge pattern on bezel and caseback. :-!

I have recently been looking into lume patterns for the A-11 ... I was wondering whether there were ever any USAAF-issued A-11 (specification 94-27834, ...-A or ...-B) with lume, or whether the lumed variants were only procured by the Navy's Bureau of Aeronatutics (identified by the marking FSSC 88-W-800)?


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## lysanderxiii

river rat said:


> It was used by the US Army Air Corps and to me it looks mint like it was never used.


Actually, it would _not_ have been used by the US Army Air Corps.

The watch is dated 1945. The US Army Air Corps cease to be an administrative organization on June 20, 1941. The US Army Air Forces (USAAF) was Command that encompassed all military aviation elements within the Department of War.

On March 9, 1942, the USAAC was subordinated to the USAAF as a branch similar to the Infantry or Artillery, responsible only for Officer and Enlisted personnel assignments and other manpower management duties, as well as doctrine development.



Crusader said:


> I have recently been looking into lume patterns for the A-11 ... I was wondering whether there were ever any USAAF-issued A-11 (specification 94-27834, ...-A or ...-B) with lume, or whether the lumed variants were only procured by the Navy's Bureau of Aeronatutics (identified by the marking FSSC 88-W-800)?


No.

The A-11 was never made with luminous hands or dials.

When it was determined that luminous markers and hands were a good idea and should be incorporated into the basic watch, it became the A-17 wristwatch. That watch would go through several specifications, but the appearance would be largely unchanged, MIL-W-6433 then later MIL-W-3818 and MIL-W-3818A. (MIL-W-3818*B* would change the appearance quite a bit)


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## river rat

In the book military timepieces by Whitney page 539 he said the Elgin A-11 was issued to Air corps and Navy aviation and on the back cover of watch it has A.F. US Army and for the lume The US Navy spec dated Feb 22,1943 for a waltham A-11 specified radioactive material on hands they had normal number'd on dial but radioactive material dot's next to the number's you mite be right on the Elgin A-11 for the lume but some waltham did.I have a old waltham dial if you want I can post it has those dot's on it.And there was a Navy waltham for sell on the Bay if it's still there with lume hands and those dot's but after all these year's they don't glow any more.


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## Billy

I have the specs, tucked away somewhere, for the *Bureau of Aeronautics: Watch, Navigation, Type A-11 (Hack)* ... indicated that they were to have luminous dials and hands and were to be marked on the caseback with: *FSSC 88-W-800 / Man. part # / Man. name* & serial #.

In addition a friend on MWR posted this:

_"USAAC and USAAF Type A-11s were all non-luminous. The hands were painted white. There was a version of the Type A-11 made by Elgin issued to U.S. Army personnel that had both luminous and non-luminous versions. It is an A-11 stamped OFA-XXXX on the case back. Elgin did produce white dialed Type A-11 very early on but they were for the USAAC not USMC._

_The USMC and USN were issued Type A-11s as well. They were typically stamped on the case with eeither FSSC 88-W-800, R88-w-800, or even AERO 88-W-800. They were produced by Elgin, Hamilton and Waltham. The Hamiltons can be found with two movements, the Grade 987S and the Grade 2987. The G-987S is only found in chromed Keystone two piece, waterproof cases. They can be found with both white (USMC) and black (USN) luminous dials."_

Hope this helps,

Billy


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## lysanderxiii

Maybe it is a matter of semantics or me not remembering properly, but while the 88-W-800 and the A-11 are covered in the same specification, 94-27834B, the Navy version of the watch is refered to as the 88-W-800, not the A-11. And, the details of the specification outlining the different luminous dial are contained in a supplimental addition to the original Army specification.

Therefore, using the term "A-11" to describe the Navy version of the watch is technically incorrect.


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## Crusader

lysanderxiii said:


> Actually, it would _not_ have been used by the US Army Air Corps.
> 
> The watch is dated 1945. The US Army Air Corps ceased to be an administrative organization on June 20, 1941. The US Army Air Forces (USAAF) was Command that encompassed all military aviation elements within the Department of War.
> 
> On March 9, 1942, the USAAC was subordinated to the USAAF as a branch similar to the Infantry or Artillery, responsible only for Officer and Enlisted personnel assignments and other manpower management duties, as well as doctrine development.


I seem to remember A-11s with "USAA*C*" or "A.*C.* U.S. Army" rather than USAA*F* markings on the back, but the 1943 specification stipulates "A.F. U.S. Army" indeed.



> The A-11 was never made with luminous hands or dials.
> 
> When it was determined that luminous markers and hands were a good idea and should be incorporated into the basic watch, it became the A-17 wristwatch. That watch would go through several specifications, but the appearance would be largely unchanged, MIL-W-6433 then later MIL-W-3818 and MIL-W-3818A. (MIL-W-3818*B* would change the appearance quite a bit)


Thank you very much, Lysander :-!

Does anyone know from which year MIL-W-6433 dates, i.e. from when on the then USAF deemed a luminous compound necessary?

And does anyone know what was the reason for the USAAF/USAF's rejection of a luminous dial in WWII and after? Concern about vibrations (that is cited as the reason for non-luminous aviation (pocket) watches in WWI and the interwar years? Cheaper? Just plain-old interservice rivalry like "we won't do anything the Navy did first?"


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## Crusader

Billy said:


> I have the specs, tucked away somewhere, for the *Bureau of Aeronautics: Watch, Navigation, Type A-11 (Hack)* ... indicated that they were to have luminous dials and hands and were to be marked on the caseback with: *FSSC 88-W-800 / Man. part # / Man. name* & serial #.
> 
> In addition a friend on MWR posted this:
> 
> _"USAAC and USAAF Type A-11s were all non-luminous. The hands were painted white. There was a version of the Type A-11 made by Elgin issued to U.S. Army personnel that had both luminous and non-luminous versions. It is an A-11 stamped OFA-XXXX on the case back. Elgin did produce white dialed Type A-11 very early on but they were for the USAAC not USMC._
> 
> _The USMC and USN were issued Type A-11s as well. They were typically stamped on the case with eeither FSSC 88-W-800, R88-w-800, or even AERO 88-W-800. They were produced by Elgin, Hamilton and Waltham. The Hamiltons can be found with two movements, the Grade 987S and the Grade 2987. The G-987S is only found in chromed Keystone two piece, waterproof cases. They can be found with both white (USMC) and black (USN) luminous dials."_
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Billy


Thanks for posting that Billy. I have the specs (that's where I got the spec. nos. from in my post ;-), but I couldn't find the MWR post again detailing the A-11 (and related) variants.

I understand that Hamilton, while not making watches under the A-11 designation (although they did make 88-W-800 watches), produced watches very similar to the A-11. Does anyone know what their designation was?


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## Guest

Very nice A-11!b-):-!


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## Billy

Martin - did i include the *FSSC 88-W-800 *Specs when i sent the A-11 specs ?

Kind Regards,

Billy


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## Crusader

Billy said:


> Martin - did i include the *FSSC 88-W-800 *Specs when i sent the A-11 specs ?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Billy


It's on the lower half of the final page. "Bureau of Aeronautics etc. The following amendments were written into contracts let by the Bureau of Aeronautics", 8 points in all. Not a full set of specs, but amendments referncing U.S. Army spec. no. 94-27834-B.


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## Billy

Great - glad i included those. I haven't had time to read through the manual, but i just put the TM 9-1575 War Dept. Technical Manual for Wrist Watches, Pocket Watches, Stop Watches and Clocks on my webpage in PDF format (a 14MB download - 227 pages). Here's a link:

http://www.freewebs.com/billyschorr/tm91575watchmanual.htm

Kind Regards,

Billy


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## Crusader

Billy said:


> Great - glad i included those. I haven't had time to read through the manual, but i just put the TM 9-1575 War Dept. Technical Manual for Wrist Watches, Pocket Watches, Stop Watches and Clocks on my webpage in PDF format (a 14MB download - 227 pages). Here's a link:
> 
> http://www.freewebs.com/billyschorr/tm91575watchmanual.htm
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Billy


Thanks for putting the link up here, Billy. :-!

I already downloaded the file yesterday, but didn't want to encroach on your bandwidth by posting the link here.


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## lysanderxiii

lysanderxiii said:


> Maybe it is a matter of semantics or me not remembering properly, but while the 88-W-800 and the A-11 are covered in the same specification, 94-27834B, the Navy version of the watch is refered to as the 88-W-800, not the A-11. And, the details of the specification outlining the different luminous dial are contained in a supplimental addition to the original Army specification.
> 
> Therefore, using the term "A-11" to describe the Navy version of the watch is technically incorrect.


Never mind, I was wrong. I just re-read the spec, I remembered incorrectly.

The amendment concerning watches for the Bureau of Aeronautics is titled: "Watch, Navigation, A-11, Hack"


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## lysanderxiii

river rat said:


> Elgin A-11 Navigation wrist watch,Hack,16 jewel,grade 539,Serial no T786238 year movement made 1944 case marks say's 1945 that should of been when it was issued.It was used by the US Army Air Corps and to me it looks mint like it was never used.


The year on the case is the fiscal year the watch was manufactured, so the watch was assembled some time between 1 July 1944 and 30 June 1945.


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## river rat

At the last flea market I went to I found a original copy of the that manual and a Elgin marked ORD Dept.USA OC 238081 on back of case, 7 jewel, grade 580,size 8/0,none hack with lume.


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## lysanderxiii

Crusader said:


> And does anyone know what was the reason for the USAAF/USAF's rejection of a luminous dial in WWII and after? Concern about vibrations (that is cited as the reason for non-luminous aviation (pocket) watches in WWI and the interwar years? Cheaper? Just plain-old interservice rivalry like "we won't do anything the Navy did first?"


My theory, take it for what you think its worth.

The A-11 was not intended to be a field watch, but a watch worn by air crewmen, as the USAAF was not in the night bombing business and was rather heavily committed to the value of daylight operations, there would be a) sufficient ambient light to read the watch, or b) no reason to not use artifical light in the cockpit, and therefore deemed the additional expense of luminous material unwarrented. Not to mention the political implications of admitting the need for nighttime operations.

Later experience, probably proved this to be a mistake, but by the time it was determined to be a mistake, the Army was unwilling to disrupt production to add this feature. (The Army had about ten times the number of aircrews as the Navy, so what would seem to be a minor change would have meant a fairly large impact on production.)

Also, after the war, there was a big push for common equipment for both the Army and Navy if the requirements were similar. Most people don't remember that the Army and Navy were two different cabinet-level departments during WW2. After the war there was a series of specifications known as "JAN" (Joint Army-Navy) specifications, this term was used between the end of the war and the subordination of both the Department of War (Army) and the Department of the Navy along with the newly formed Department of the Air Force to the over-arching Department of Defense in 1947. This made coordination between the three services easier as all had to answer to one person at Department level instead of having the President the only person both service Secretaries had to answer to.


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## photog-shooter

I have recently been looking into lume patterns for the A-11 ... I was wondering whether there were ever any USAAF-issued A-11 (specification 94-27834, ...-A or ...-B) with lume, or whether the lumed variants were only procured by the Navy's Bureau of Aeronatutics (identified by the marking FSSC 88-W-800)?[/quote]
======================================
Below is a variation of one Elgin A-11 with radium (lume) hands mfg'd in 1943, from my collection.

There were several variations of the A-11 lume & non-lume mfg'd by Elgin, Bulova & Waltham. Hamilton had a version that was for the Navy Seals (UDT), simply referred to as, a Canteen Watch. Elgin, had one too. It was a waterproof watch w/ a water-sealed screw crown cover.

Many had different types of hand, dials, etc that either had radium or non-radium. Also, two main types of cases. The 3-piece, non-waterproof version (river rat's watch) and two-piece, waterproof version (mine).

The main recipients of the A-11's were aviators. However, some were issue to field officers and non-coms, who led platoons and squads through time critical missions of the War.

The A-17 watch was a radium dial/hand watch early in it's life. Then, switch to non-radium, lumionous paint by the Korean War. It appeared very near to the end of WW II and was the main watch issued to Korean Aviators, in the Korean War.

Radium paint was a carcinogen, causing cancer. Many women working at the watch factories during WW II, hand painted the dials and hands on these watch. To keep a narrow tip on their paint brush, the women would lick the tips of the paint brush between their tongue and lips and ingest the radium paint. Eventually, these women were diagnosed with cancer and died from the radium exposure. Read, Radium Girls.

Marvin Whitney's book, Military Timepieces, and the TM-1975 are excellent, comprehensive, resources on U.S. and European timepieces of WW-II. I have both and they are indespensible to me. CCO:thanks


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## Crusader

Thanks, photog-shooter !

Can you tell us the numbers/engravings on the caseback of your A-11?

And I'll post my question again, when was the A-17, the watch that succeeded the A-11 in aviation use, introduced? 1950s or closer to 1945?


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## photog-shooter

lysanderxiii said:


> The year on the case is the fiscal year the watch was manufactured, so the watch was assembled some time between 1 July 1944 and 30 June 1945.





Crusader said:


> Thanks, photog-shooter !
> 
> Can you tell us the numbers/engravings on the caseback of your A-11?
> 
> And I'll post my question again, when was the A-17, the watch that succeeded the A-11 in aviation use, introduced? 1950s or closer to 1945?


===================
My Elgin caseback has the following:

TYPE A-11
SPEC NO. 94-27834
SER. NO. AF43-79566
MFRS PART. NO.1783
ORD NO. W535 AC-34868
ELGIN

*(I'll try and post a pic, later)

Re: The A-17, I can't find a precise date of introduction, but Whitney's book states the Bulova A-17 appeared after a January 17, 1944 amendment to the Army Specs No. 94-27834-B. The Bulova version has a 10BNCH watch movement. Waltham's version had a 6/0-D movement. This particular Watham movement did not appear until late 1946 or early 1947. I interpret this as late WW-II or post WW-II at the earliest.

I hope I answered your question.

CCO, :thanks


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## river rat

Here is what they call a Magnetic-shielded,shock-absorbent metel canister carrying case used in WW2 for ether Elgin or Hamilton navigation watch read the label US Army AC I guess the AC stands for Air Corps? in the middle of the war.I hope this solve's the question.


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## Crusader

photog-shooter said:


> ===================
> My Elgin caseback has the following:
> 
> TYPE A-11
> SPEC NO. 94-27834
> SER. NO. AF43-79566
> MFRS PART. NO.1783
> ORD NO. W535 AC-34868
> ELGIN
> 
> *(I'll try and post a pic, later)
> 
> Re: The A-17, I can't find a precise date of introduction, but Whitney's book states the Bulova A-17 appeared after a January 17, 1944 amendment to the Army Specs No. 94-27834-B. The Bulova version has a 10BNCH watch movement. Waltham's version had a 6/0-D movement. This particular Watham movement did not appear until late 1946 or early 1947. I interpret this as late WW-II or post WW-II at the earliest.
> 
> I hope I answered your question.
> 
> CCO, :thanks


Interesting, photog-shooter ... so there were lumed versions of the A-11 even under the original spec.

I hadn't realized the A-17 could be dated so early ... I was under the impression that it basically was a 1950s watch, but 1945 would be a different mater ... :think:


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## photog-shooter

One has to remember and consider, during the War, these watches were service and refurbish just like the military arms were. When the military-trained, rear echelon, watchmakers were servicing these watches, they weren't to concerned with placing the proper case backs, dials, hands, etc. on the watches. All the did was refurbish them and get them back into service. So, these miliitary watches may have incorrect case backs, marking, etc. 

After Pearl Harbor, Hamilton, stopped producing watches for the consumer and all there watches were earmarked for the Military. Hamilton placed and ad in January 1942, explaining this decision, I believe in Life Magazine among other publications. Virtually all Elgin grade 580's, 539's & 554's were military bound.. Waltham's 6/0-42's movements and Bulova had the 10AK's, 10BNCH's & 10CKSH movements, were military bound, as well. Even several pocket watches and stop watches were earmarked for the Military, too. (Read Marvin Whitney's Military Timepieces) Longines-Wittnauuer provide the U.S. Military with watches too. The Weems was state-of-the-art back in 1939 with the chronograph abilities pilots needed.

After WW-II, and leading into the Korean War, Benrus (Another U.S watchmaker) was added to the list of official military timepiece mfr's. Their watches were used up thru Vietnam.

Now, Stauer Watches & Bulova, offer commemorative watches honoring the military watches of the past. Sadly, they are nowhere nears as good in quality and workmanship of the old U.S made military watches.

So, to truly date a watch to WW II, the serial number & watch movement is the only way.

The A-17 is consider a 1950's era watch because very few saw service in WW II & the U.S Military required the addition of the military time dial shortly before the end of WW II. 

CCO:thanks


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## lysanderxiii

To add to what photog-shooter posted, the non-waterproof field watches were supposed to have waterproof cases fitted when they were returned for repair if the repair activity had spare waterproof cases. There were a large supply of these replacement cases, that were made in the fifties, on ebay a few years back. They came in little fiber board cans and looked just like the passivated, bead-blasted A-17 cases, they were marked on the case-back either:

ORD DEPT
U.S.A.

or

U.S
NO.____________________
GRADE WG

I would assume that A-11 watches were similarly upgraded to A-17 standards (luminous dials and hands) when they were returned for repair.


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## photog-shooter

Since we have having a nice discussion on WW-II military issue Elgin wristwatches, I have attached a few others from my collection.


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## whifferdill

Great thread! And fantastic A11's - what a great little watch and built with the philosphy I'm increasingly appreciating - that less is more. A nice, simple, clear watch that gets the job done - and what history!


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## Crusader

Crusader said:


> And I'll post my question again, when was the A-17, the watch that succeeded the A-11 in aviation use, introduced? 1950s or closer to 1945?


I found something about the A-17 over on MWR:

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showpost.php?p=24065&postcount=4

According to that thread, the A-17 was procured in three contracts in 1950, 1952 and 1956.


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## sbkygal

Can someone please help me locate the specs for the 1943 Elgin 539 A-11? I am trying to do research, and also find the appropriate strap/band, but I have only been able to locate the Waltham documents. 



Billy said:


> I have the specs, tucked away somewhere, for the *Bureau of Aeronautics: Watch, Navigation, Type A-11 (Hack)* ... indicated that they were to have luminous dials and hands and were to be marked on the caseback with: *FSSC 88-W-800 / Man. part # / Man. name* & serial #.
> 
> In addition a friend on MWR posted this:
> 
> _"USAAC and USAAF Type A-11s were all non-luminous. The hands were painted white. There was a version of the Type A-11 made by Elgin issued to U.S. Army personnel that had both luminous and non-luminous versions. It is an A-11 stamped OFA-XXXX on the case back. Elgin did produce white dialed Type A-11 very early on but they were for the USAAC not USMC.
> 
> The USMC and USN were issued Type A-11s as well. They were typically stamped on the case with eeither FSSC 88-W-800, R88-w-800, or even AERO 88-W-800. They were produced by Elgin, Hamilton and Waltham. The Hamiltons can be found with two movements, the Grade 987S and the Grade 2987. The G-987S is only found in chromed Keystone two piece, waterproof cases. They can be found with both white (USMC) and black (USN) luminous dials."_
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Billy


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