# My BIGGEST PROBLEM with Grand Seiko.



## zuiko (May 17, 2016)

My biggest problem with Grand Seiko is how utterly difficult it is to these days look at other watch brands and truthfully want one as much or as badly as the next Grand Seiko. 

In a bid to try and see whether I could do it I spent a bit of both last weekend and this weekend browsing some of the local watch outlets and nothing I saw could capture my attention aside from a platinum Patek and a few all gold Rolexes that have been a perpetual ‘maybe’ for me for a while. 

I did find something that I did put a deposit down for but I don't think it beats any of my existing GS watches in any way at all but that's not the reason I chose it because if that were the criteria I think it would be very difficult to spend money on any other brand. 

There are a few watch commentators or industry players on Youtube who are Swiss watch lovers (both anti-GS overall) who I have watched to try and break my GS addiction but one of the latest posts about the new blue-red GMT II by Rolex (which I was interested in) by one of these commentators confirmed for me the futility of the game he was teaching his followers to play ie. kiss the ass of your AD. 

I could go on but I just wanted to know whether anyone else feels this way about GS? 

Has anyone perhaps moved away from GS to another brand and what was it that made you do it?

Where does everyone else stand?


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## JoeC (Jun 20, 2010)

I would have more GS watches if they branched out and changed it up in terms of design. I find that aside from different colored dials (which are gorgeous, by the way) and slightly different case shapes, the watches tend to look very similar to each other. I can only look at dauphine hands and trapezoidal indices for so long, no matter how amazingly finished.


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## bgator (Jan 12, 2015)

JoeC said:


> I would have more GS watches if they branched out and changed it up in terms of design. I find that aside from different colored dials (which are gorgeous, by the way) and slightly different case shapes, the watches tend to look very similar to each other. I can only look at dauphine hands and trapezoidal indices for so long, no matter how amazingly finished.


I'm new to GS and have yet to buy my first although I doubt it will be long.

This summarizes my feelings. One GS will probably be enough for me. I appreciate many different brands and styles and tend toward diversity in my collection. And there is not a lot of diversity in the GS catalog.

Some people like to collect all the historic variations of one particular model or they stick to one brand but that's just not me.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

I think different watches have their own unique merits. GS is my most favorite brand. But other brands are good enough to make my own collection for various reasons. No, they arent finished better than a GS, not even close. But GS can't give me the look of my Speedy Pro with Hesalite glass. I dont own a Sub but Seiko/GS doesnt want to build a moderately sized GS diver and the sub fills that void in spades with an iconic look that GS doesnt provide. If you wanted the military style look that Panerai gives what can GS offer instead? 

My point is that GS is great but for me not the right choice for every buyer. Enjoy your GS watches!

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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

I remember addressing a similar discussion here.
Grand Seiko i never ever betray you again.

I'll say Grand Seiko is a special product. No other brand has enticed me to buy more than two. And I now have 4 GS, and it directly branched off into another 2 Credor and a very special Seiko Prospex. That's about half of my entire "good" collection.

That said, I've continued to buy other brands and continue to have interest in them. While I have no solid intentions yet, I currently have two Zeniths at the top of my list. My watch obsession started with an Omega and I still like what they do. I'm a fan of the newer 38mm Aqua Terras and probably would have moved to buy one if there was a quick change system between their bracelet and rubber strap. Planet Ocean 39.5mm is to me a complete dive piece with all the goodies; I'd buy a black one if they made a gilt dial.

It is interesting that I've held off these watches for such specific shortcomings, yet continue to buy GS with things I'm not 100% happy with either. GS needs to improve their bracelets... They should be adding value and tech there as other brands have appealingly done. They should look toward smaller and thinner case options as well. But there's still just something so alluring about them, and it starts with the dials. Snowflake, Iwate, blue spiral mosaic, GS9F texture, glossy guilloche, bellflower engraving... These are the dials of my GSs and Credors, and few of my other watches have dials with comparable interest infused into them.

Still, I feel each brand has a certain feel to them that I appreciate. To me, it would feel a shame to only be able to fully appreciate the GS/Credor/Seiko feel. While plainer in some ways (though definitely not in the movement) I love the charms of my JLC True Second and in my mind remains my finest piece, also despite a couple specific shortcomings that would have otherwise turned me away. However that piece was roughly just $1000 less than what I paid for SBGJ005 and SBGH267 COMBINED, and costs more than those two if I add the bracelet, which I intend to do. If I ever had to choose, I'd choose those two over just that one, as the three pieces are closer to equals than anything else.

My future (not immediate) watch goals include my ideal manual winding piece, a high level column wheel vertical clutch chronograph, and a true "grail" piece that features hand finishing throughout (including movement) and artisanal dial work. The two former, I certainly wouldn't mind if they were also GS. The latter, I presume and intend it would likely be Swiss, although it's not inconceivable that Credor or some future GS creation could possibly fill that spot.

Honestly though, when it comes down to it I value diversity and the different spirit felt from each. I would prefer they not all be GS/Seiko. Experiencing German watchmaking is also a sub goal I've had and will probably pursue at some point. Just need to figure out where all this money's supposed come from!


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

Yeah GS has spoilt me and dampened my desire for more nice watches. I like to tell myself that one day I'll go for some trinity stuff but I'm pretty sure I know that if I did spend that much money on a watch it'd be an Eichi or a Hajime Asaoka or something.


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## catlike (Aug 7, 2009)

I own a GS Snowflake which I love and used to own a GMT. 

I love the fit & finishing of Grand Seiko but frankly I find a lot of their range uninspiring from a design perspective with a lot of sameness from model to model and the case thickness issue. So I really like 2 or 3 models in the range, which is no different to any other mid tier to high end brand I can think of.


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## Blazinva (Jun 9, 2015)

To me Grand Seiko is top of the food chain in term of quality, design, practicality and price. Unless, money is not an issue then I might get an A. Lange & Sohne or a Credor Eichi

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## Tonhao (Dec 23, 2017)

GS will always have a place in my collection because they showed that great watchmaking has no borders. For a watch that debuted internationally in 2010, they’ve become a major contender to the Europeans that had been producing watches since the Reformation. Lots of traditional watch brands change ownership and direction, with many losing their identity and creative steam in the process. I think GS has stayed faithful to “what makes GS a GS” more than any other that I can think of.


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

I highly respect the level of dial, indice, and hand finishing of Grand Seiko, as well as their movement technology, and in some cases the movement finishing. However, I have Swiss watches I prefer for dress purposes, and to me their sports watches lag behind due to so-so bracelets and date windows at 3 o’clock with white borders leaving me less than inspired. That leaves me wondering how one would ever really fit in for my purposes. If they ever figure out the bracelet game, I could see adding a diver down the line though.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

I wear and enjoy watches from many brands, but as for my next purchase, I only have eyes for Grand Seiko. Now if I can just find an SBGH037 at a decent price somewhere (otherwise I might have to "settle" for another GS model).


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## Covenant (Apr 22, 2009)

Great thread Zuiko, and some excellent posts already.



bluedialer said:


> GS needs to improve their bracelets... They should be adding value and tech there as other brands have appealingly done. They should look toward smaller and thinner case options as well. But there's still just something so alluring about them, and it starts with the dials. Snowflake, Iwate, blue spiral mosaic, GS9F texture, glossy guilloche, bellflower engraving... These are the dials of my GSs and Credors, and few of my other watches have dials with comparable interest infused into them.


I agree with this statement 100%. Grand Seiko's bracelets are definitely their weakest element, and case thickness is often disproportionate to the otherwise highly elegant dial designs. I sold my last Grand Seiko (SBGR097) because I couldn't get past these shortcomings, and when I decided to buy the SBGX091 I immediately swapped the bracelet for a strap.



> While plainer in some ways (though definitely not in the movement) I love the charms of my JLC True Second and in my mind remains my finest piece, also despite a couple specific shortcomings that would have otherwise turned me away.


The JLC True Second is magnificent, I've been eyeballing one for a long time as well. Congrats!



> My future (not immediate) watch goals include my ideal manual winding piece, a high level column wheel vertical clutch chronograph, and a true "grail" piece that features hand finishing throughout (including movement) and artisanal dial work. The two former, I certainly wouldn't mind if they were also GS. The latter, I presume and intend it would likely be Swiss, although it's not inconceivable that Credor or some future GS creation could possibly fill that spot.


Have a gander at German for that grail piece, as well. For extensive hand finishing it's hard to look past A. Lange & Söhne, and there's also Moritz Grossmann, Lang & Heyne Dresden, Dornblüth & Sohn and others.

For me personally, I've grown to really appreciate Grand Seiko's 9F and Spring Drive offerings. If I bought another, it will almost certainly have a quartz regulator in it (unless they do something crazy like a "special" grade hi-beat in steel). For purely mechanical, I'm more attracted to German and Swiss offerings. On the Swiss side, I've got my eyes on Chopard's L.U.C. collection, Breguet's Classique Chronométrie 7727 (and whatever follows it that also uses the magnetic pivot), Jaeger-LeCoultre's more technically advanced offerings (like bluedialer's True Second), Cartier's Santos and Tank collections, and a half-dozen others. There's plenty of exciting stuff in Switzerland, it's just not coming from the trinity brands, which is a shame.


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## MLJinAK (Feb 14, 2015)

I haven't bought a watch over $200 since acquiring my LE spring drive in 2015. I've been anxiously awaiting new releases at Basel to find exactly what I want - sporty, 42mm or less, ceramic bezel or case, and quartz. 

I've found a LOT of other brands that I would have bought based on the functionality and features, but none compare to GS. And in that, I'm disappointed in GS every year. 

Disappointed to the extent I think they're lazy. They do limited editions, but same cases, different dials. It's not "lazy", but kind of.


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Covenant said:


> The JLC True Second is magnificent, I've been eyeballing one for a long time as well. Congrats!
> 
> Have a gander at German for that grail piece, as well. For extensive hand finishing it's hard to look past A. Lange & Söhne, and there's also Moritz Grossmann, Lang & Heyne Dresden, Dornblüth & Sohn and others.
> 
> For me personally, I've grown to really appreciate Grand Seiko's 9F and Spring Drive offerings. If I bought another, it will almost certainly have a quartz regulator in it (unless they do something crazy like a "special" grade hi-beat in steel). For purely mechanical, I'm more attracted to German and Swiss offerings. On the Swiss side, I've got my eyes on Chopard's L.U.C. collection, Breguet's Classique Chronométrie 7727 (and whatever follows it that also uses the magnetic pivot), Jaeger-LeCoultre's more technically advanced offerings (like bluedialer's True Second), Cartier's Santos and Tank collections, and a half-dozen others. There's plenty of exciting stuff in Switzerland, it's just not coming from the trinity brands, which is a shame.


Thanks the TS is really a special watch, I just wish it had a slightly sturdier build with a screw down crown. That isn't really JLC though, and is something GS does quite well.... Which is in my opinion flat out better than adhering to "tradition" of push-pull crowns and lesser water resistance standards. There is also that special signature shine and lustre present in GS dials that's not matched by the JLC, but that to me is more a stylistic topic and not a quality issue. I do adore the TS applied logo and indices though... GS wins in the quality level of their hour/minute hands... however as winning as they are, they do stick to basically that same dauphine hand set throughout most of their range, and that's sort of questionable like the over use of the 5-link bracelet.

That seems to be a common criticism of GS - too many watches using same or similar parts, yielding the same over all look. To a point that's actually a good thing for brand coherency, but are they perhaps bordering past that point? Possibly. They do actually have a surprising number of subtly varied applied index structures, even though they are almost all baton/stick type in basic form.

Note on a German grail piece, I guess it's conceivable there might be a perfect hand-finished grail-quality German manual winding column/vertical chronograph! That sure would knock out a lot of birds with one stone. Would have to be the perfect watch though, for the $$$ such a piece would probably be. Unfortunately Lange is all about precious metals, which will tend to drive the price way higher than is worthwhile to my personal feelings.

There are lots of different high level options in the watch world though, as you've pointed out. That is much of the fun in the hobby, and why zuiko understandably sees his enchantment with GS as a "problem". A bitter-sweet problem.


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## zuiko (May 17, 2016)

I think everyone makes very valid points that will echo for others also, they certainly do for me. 

The problem I find with the ‘lesser’ Swiss brands especially the ones like Cartier, Chopard and Breguet is the very classical late 19th and early 20th century styling they have overall. Roman numerals and basically any numerals for hour indices are out for me. Romans I find completely anachronistic and Arabic numerals for indices belong imo properly on a child's watch. I have the rare watch that has numerals for indices but they're usually cheaper ones that have some other significant overriding factor for me. 

GS seems to have everything covered in things I value; the timekeeping technology firstly and the art of displaying the time secondly, in ways, materials and craftsmanship that show high standards of both machining and hand finish.

My personal belief is that the Quartz Revolution of the 70s didn't almost kill, but actually did kill watchmaking in the sense of it being something that was a striving for accurate timekeeping technology. Mechanical watchmaking is completely obsolete in that sense. So in my mind mechanical watches reached their zenith in the 1960s and that for me is the golden age of the mechanical automatic wristwatch. The point at which companies still competed with each other for accuracy of their movements. 

The renaissance of contemporary mechanical watchmaking looks to this era quite rightly for inspiration. I think GS is an example of a company who took their prominence in the golden era of watchmaking in the 1960s and has successfully translated it into our day with new technology like the spring drive for example. Now that I have had a taste of high end quartz in the 9F I'm very excited by where GS might go with a next generation quartz movement for example. 

I think if I'm honest then all of these watches beyond a point are really just mechanised jewelry but GS seems to most successfully conceal that bald fact by injecting technology, high production standards and most importantly for me high reliability into their arm jewelry 

Like I say I did find something non GS to buy after all and it will hopefully arrive later in the year. I hope it doesn't disappoint.


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## De Wolfe (Jul 23, 2015)

I love the GS I currently have, but as a overall brand, their watches are stuck in 1 design language. I wish they can go a bit crazier with their cases and bracelets. 

Also, the thickness of the watch. Its not bad at all, but can be better. 

Im not biased to any watch brand; I have a watch or two that I like from most top brands. 

Rolex and Patek, AD a** kissing, Im not going there as I don't owe them anything; I'm the consumer end of the day, and I can live without their "HOT" models.


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## Covenant (Apr 22, 2009)

bluedialer said:


> Note on a German grail piece, I guess it's conceivable there might be a perfect hand-finished grail-quality German manual winding column/vertical chronograph! That sure would knock out a lot of birds with one stone. Would have to be the perfect watch though, for the $$$ such a piece would probably be. Unfortunately Lange is all about precious metals, which will tend to drive the price way higher than is worthwhile to my personal feelings.


This immediately comes to my mind:








_Image from Time and Tide watches

_







_Image from aBlogtoWatch
_
The Datograph Up/Down, a hand-wound, manufacture column-wheel flyback chronograph with large date and power reserve complications and a metric crapton of finish. IMO a contender for the finest chronograph in the world, and well beyond the reach of mere mortals like me.



zuiko said:


> My personal belief is that the Quartz Revolution of the 70s didn't almost kill, but actually did kill watchmaking in the sense of it being something that was a striving for accurate timekeeping technology. Mechanical watchmaking is completely obsolete in that sense. So in my mind mechanical watches reached their zenith in the 1960s and that for me is the golden age of the mechanical automatic wristwatch. The point at which companies still competed with each other for accuracy of their movements.
> 
> The renaissance of contemporary mechanical watchmaking looks to this era quite rightly for inspiration. I think GS is an example of a company who took their prominence in the golden era of watchmaking in the 1960s and has successfully translated it into our day with new technology like the spring drive for example. Now that I have had a taste of high end quartz in the 9F I'm very excited by where GS might go with a next generation quartz movement for example.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, the modern mechanical wristwatch is very much "mechanised jewelry". Some Swiss brands still pursue accuracy in a serious way though. Breguet's magnetic pivot technology that I mentioned earlier is very cool; suspending the balance staff in a kind of artificial gravity created by rare-earth magnets within the watch, making it impervious to positional variation (which was what the tourbillon was originally designed to do, and was also a Breguet invention. In a cool kind of way they've finally perfected that technology). Zenith's Defy Lab resonator promises Spring Drive-like accuracy without a quartz crystal, which is also really cool. Here's hoping either or both of those technologies work their way into attainable products in the near future.

On the Quartz front, Citizen just unveiled a calibre that might dethrone the mighty 9F; Cal.0100 offers an AT-cut quartz crystal resonating at the truly ridiculous frequency of 8.4MHz, 256x faster than standard quartz, and promises accuracy of +/- 1 SPY. Depending on cost and the style of cases when they're launched, I'm definitely considering getting one.

Edit: I also don't consider brands like Chopard, JLC, Breguet etc to be "lesser" than the Big Three. If anything I think trinity-status has led to Vacheron, Audmars and Patek to get lazy with their drive to innovate and improve. The prices they charge are ridiculous even by Swiss standards, and IMO there isn't a commensurate amount of watch on offer. I'd much rather drop 20-large on a Saxonia Thin from Lange than a Patrimony or a Calatrava, for instance. I'd also happily take a L.U.C. XPS or Breguet Classique over anything with a similar pricetag from the Big Three.


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

Heres a thought though - and hear me out....Maybe the crappy bracelets and packaging and customer service are...good? I mean, the slight imperfection sort of lends a more humble feel to the watch. If they made a killer bracelet and really stepped up their game to Rolex and charged an extra 1-2K would we be happy? They added sapphire and some other nonsense to the MM300, added 1K and I couldn't be furious-er. One of my favourite aspects of Seiko (historically) is a pretty-darn-good watch at a good price. I sort of get the feeling that that's the way Seiko are going, the GS will be improved and the price difference between the Japs and Swiss will all but disappear. I personally am a big fan of their current market positioning. Almost Rolex for less than Rolex. If it's Rolex for the price of a Rolex, I may just buy the Rolex? :-(


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## Covenant (Apr 22, 2009)

Domo said:


> Heres a thought though - and hear me out....Maybe the crappy bracelets and packaging and customer service are...good? I mean, the slight imperfection sort of lends a more humble feel to the watch. If they made a killer bracelet and really stepped up their game to Rolex and charged an extra 1-2K would we be happy?


That's a very interesting point, and I think you're right; some compromises that keep prices below the $10K ceiling are a worthy tradeoff. Personally speaking, I avoid the whole issue by putting straps on Grand Seikos and buying Tudors on bracelets 

Speaking of which, anyone been eyeballing the Black Bay Fifty Eight recently? I'm going to sneak into my AD all ninja-like, and while the riff-raff are cooing over the Pepsi GMT I'm going to nab a Fifty Eight before it dawns on everyone how perfect it is and stock vanishes.


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## ZeroApr (Oct 27, 2017)

Well said about the design language. 

I think they lack a sporty line that can be mentioned in the same breath as an AP Royal Oak, VC overseas, or Patek Nautilus.

So far the GS peacock is what I'm drawn to most in terms of an iconic sporty watch in their lineup. But that's a limited edition and not a fixture. Had I not purchased a Milgauss Z-blue I would have gotten a peacock. What stopped me buying was the peacock green dial ,while gorgeous , seemed to compete with the greenish blue of the Milgauss Z-blue. 

I think if GS had a nice matte finished titanium bracelet with an industrial rugged look look,like a Bulgari Octo Finissimo, with their stepped power reserve (in the snowflake ) then they'd have something stands out more beyond just the finishing.

I love my GS SBGM221 gmt! my only issue is that the polishing is so immaculate that I'm really overcautious about wearing it in more casual active settings where I worry about scratching the zaratsu polish.

I never worry about scratching my Rolex Explorer 2 polar in the same way. 

I'd love to have a sporty GS watch that I can wear with the same level of confidence.


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## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

I think the choices of so many similar watches ( at 1st glance ) can be paired down to a select few. Simply choose case metal ( gold , Platinum, Titanium , Stainless ) , Movement , case size < 40 mm or > 40 MM, then dial color .

It works itself out.


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## dayandnight (May 24, 2016)

I'm a fan of omega but since I bought the peacock 
I been wearing it 3-4 times a week. Although in the beginning I didn't feel that way about it until I took off the bracelet and swapped it with a premium leather strap. Now I'm Considering adding a second Grand Seiko rather than purchasing another Rolex or omega. Curse you Grand Seiko!


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

The last good looks I've gotten at nice watches were the three-hand Spring Drives and three Rolexes (ExpII, ExpI, and new Cellini).

The Rolexes seemed like the best of the old, using modern materials and (reportedly) easier-to-service construction. The finishing was nicely done, too.

But, dang it, when I looked up close, they were just pleasant, and not "no matter how closely I look I keep finding another damn-near-perfectly-executed detail" like I saw in the GSes.

I've been given a cap of $7k for whatever nice watch I get in the future (hopefully sooner than later), and adding GS to my wish list actually made the list _shorter._


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## oztech (Apr 30, 2015)

My biggest problem with them there are no AD's in Houston that I know of.


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## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

Covenant said:


> *On the Quartz front, Citizen just unveiled a calibre that might dethrone the mighty 9F*; Cal.0100 offers an AT-cut quartz crystal resonating at the truly ridiculous frequency of 8.4MHz, 256x faster than standard quartz, and promises accuracy of +/- 1 SPY. Depending on cost and the style of cases when they're launched, I'm definitely considering getting one.


I'd offer Citizen's already done that with their A010, A060, and A660 movements...broke my heart when they didn't offer new The Citizen models without the power reserve at Basel this year...been waiting two years for that to happen en masse...not sure I'm going to wait around for a third.


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## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

oztech said:


> My biggest problem with them there are no AD's in Houston that I know of.


https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/stores/

Frisco Texas , your are right about there being no AD in Houston , as far as the site states.


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## GregNYC (Mar 4, 2006)

I don’t feel that way about any brand. I love my GS retrospective SBGW253. I’ve worn it to several Swiss watch boutiques (Patek, Vacheron, Lange, Rolex), and the sales people always want to see it more closely. Several have taken photos. It totally gets props.

My favorite GS’s are the classics. I’d purchase more GS’s if there were Spring Drives without pwr reserve indicators on the dial, or more classic pieces under 40mm with no date windows. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chenpofu (Feb 21, 2015)

After GS, besides beaters, I really only look at either vintage GS, or higher end and more complicated Swiss and German watches. Many of those are certainly in a different price category and out of reach.


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## Nom de Forum (Oct 17, 2012)

I have four problems with Grand Seiko that are a four-way tie for the title of "My BIGGEST PROBLEM" with Grand Seiko:

Snowflakes with date windows.

Snowflakes with power reserves on the dial instead of the case back.​
The 40mm quartz models not having a screw down crown.

The 40mm quartz models not being available in titanium.


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## NoSympathy (Jul 1, 2017)

I too feel this way about GS and some of their textured dials. I really like their polishing, the shape of their hands and how sharp and pointy the are. 

But at the same time, I am also looking at other brands and am already considering a BLNR and other more unique watches.


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## watchstar1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree with these comments entirely. I have an sbgj021 and it is truly the most beautiful watch I have ever owned. I can't stop staring at it because it is so perfect. I've held friends rolexes next to it and they pale in comparison. I've been to the jlc boutiques and those watches seem bland. Don't get me wrong. GS is not the most exciting watch in the world and yes their models are quite similar. However, the execution of GS watches is beyond compare. I've yet to hold a GS next to a Patek but that would hardly be comparing like with like in terms of price point. I will leave you with this quote. If GS is good enough for this man it's good enough for me.

"One of the most honorable things about Philippe Dufour is his utter lack of protectionism. He's exchanged techniques and lessons with the master watch makers at Seiko in Japan who produce Grand Seiko and Credor timepieces. Dufour is incredibly impressed with their work and shares a story on how he helped Seiko discover a local plant similar to one in Switzerland that Dufour uses as part of the finishing process. Dufour warns the "too-comfortable" Swiss watch industry that they are no longer the clear winners of watches."


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## rxd1979 (Apr 28, 2018)

i dont see it as a problem. GS 9f and 9r is all i am interested in. makes me suffer decision fatigue less. already got a gmt sd, maybe a 9f in the future..if and when the 9r needs to go back to mothership.

otherwise, i am ok with never owning an overpriced swiss watch.


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## watchstar1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm very much of the same mindset. I feel swiss watches are painfully overpriced at present and companies are being run by marketing departments rather than craftsmen and women. Rather than innovate they are happy to milk the "heritage range" trough for the moment rather than innovate. While GS is printing some of its parts using photo-light technology with precision down to 1/1000th of a mm swiss companies like Tudor are clinging on to a heritage revival by the skin of their teeth. Big marketing hype though. Suck the fools into buying one at full rrp. But then all you have to do is look on the forums to see how many tudor snowflakes are being dumped within weeks of people purchasing them. Gee, I wonder why?


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## slow car (May 6, 2018)

I love Grand Seiko partly because they aren’t unique and not exactly mainstream. Turn leftand right, all you see are typical Swiss high end timepeices. Somehow, that makes Grand Seiko cool be it in a discreet or knowing way


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## pwk (Nov 3, 2015)

What is the best "most afffordable " GS .....? Would like opinions.


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## watchstar1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I think probably a sbgh005. It's a hi beat with display back but no gmt. You can pick it up for under 2500 sterling. Other than that you'd be looking at a solid case back model, which would be a shame considering the pretty movement


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## jdmvette (Oct 10, 2008)

Rally wanting a GS snowflake art piece


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## watchstar1 (Jan 20, 2012)

I was actually in the dealer just yesterday and he recently got a snowflake in which he showed me. Remarkable piece. Light as a feather. snowy landscape dial indeed. Beautifully finished movement via the caseback AND the most mesmerizing sweep seconds hand, which I can only describe as "floating".


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## mightyomighty (Jun 6, 2017)

I see that Rolex recently bumped their service interval to 10 years. I hope GS will follow the same.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

mightyomighty said:


> I see that Rolex recently bumped their service interval to 10 years. I hope GS will follow the same.


I'd like that too, but I don't think you can just suddenly said "10 year interval". You have to improve the technology.

GS currently recommends 2-3 years service for conventional, 3-4 for spring drive. To go to 10 would require new lubricants, possibly new materials, new designs..... Knowing how slowly and deliberately GS advances, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a 10 year service interval.

Actually, instead of a longer service interval I'd rather see GS improve the reputation of their US repair facility (I know, I've been griping about that lately).


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## Covenant (Apr 22, 2009)

watchstar1 said:


> I'm very much of the same mindset. I feel swiss watches are painfully overpriced at present and companies are being run by marketing departments rather than craftsmen and women. Rather than innovate they are happy to milk the "heritage range" trough for the moment rather than innovate. While GS is printing some of its parts using photo-light technology with precision down to 1/1000th of a mm swiss companies like Tudor are clinging on to a heritage revival by the skin of their teeth. Big marketing hype though. Suck the fools into buying one at full rrp. But then all you have to do is look on the forums to see how many tudor snowflakes are being dumped within weeks of people purchasing them. Gee, I wonder why?


While I largely agree that a lot of Swiss manufacturers are overpriced and lack innovation, I don't think Tudor is among them. Their new calibre is fantastic for accuracy, and their bracelets (like all Rolex group bracelets) are world-class. If there's one area where I think Rolex/Tudor are superior to everyone (including GS) it's in their bracelet design.

I think the large number of Tudor/Rolex resales are simply a matter of volume. More people are buying them than GS, and thus more people are on-selling. Tudor has some style cues that can rub people the wrong way; not everyone likes Snowflake hands, Pelagos has 5 lines of text on the dial, and the North Flag has yellow accents and a power reserve indicator, and often you don't know if one of these is going to be a deal-breaker until you've lived with the watch for a while. The Black Bays also wear pretty thick, which the BB58 is meant to address, but that's undoubtedly caused some flips as well.

Honestly GS and Rolex/Tudor are my favourite brands for midrange everyday watches. At the high end, I don't like anything the "Trinity" are producing, but lately I've been taking a long, hard look at Chopard...


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## zuiko (May 17, 2016)

Covenant said:


> While I largely agree that a lot of Swiss manufacturers are overpriced and lack innovation, I don't think Tudor is among them. Their new calibre is fantastic for accuracy, and their bracelets (like all Rolex group bracelets) are world-class. If there's one area where I think Rolex/Tudor are superior to everyone (including GS) it's in their bracelet design.
> 
> I think the large number of Tudor/Rolex resales are simply a matter of volume. More people are buying them than GS, and thus more people are on-selling. Tudor has some style cues that can rub people the wrong way; not everyone likes Snowflake hands, Pelagos has 5 lines of text on the dial, and the North Flag has yellow accents and a power reserve indicator, and often you don't know if one of these is going to be a deal-breaker until you've lived with the watch for a while. The Black Bays also wear pretty thick, which the BB58 is meant to address, but that's undoubtedly caused some flips as well.
> 
> Honestly GS and Rolex/Tudor are my favourite brands for midrange everyday watches. At the high end, I don't like anything the "Trinity" are producing, but lately I've been taking a long, hard look at Chopard...


I can't argue with the feeling that Tudor is probably not among the worst in marketing hype in the Swiss watch world, and that's probably why I picked up a couple of Tudors as the only watches along with one Rolex in the last 5 years; and that are still amongst my many Seiko /GS watches.

I don't wear my two Pelagos' anymore except in very short intraday bursts just to see what they were like. The reports of luminous indices and numerals being knocked out of their ceramic bezels which I don't really want to happen to my watches, also has stopped me wearing them more often. But their bracelets are great and very innovative. Possibly a test of longevity of the springs or some other thing about the bracelet to work on improving slowly.

I have looked at the 'trinity' and beside it and really can't see anything that would capture me for long enough except maybe, just maybe a Patek Nautilus but I see that as missing the mark ultimately.

For me personally, I think I will not be able to rest until I get to the resolve to just buy an Eichi II.


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## Covenant (Apr 22, 2009)

zuiko said:


> The reports of luminous indices and numerals being knocked out of their ceramic bezels which I don't really want to happen to my watches, also has stopped me wearing them more often. But their bracelets are great and very innovative. Possibly a test of longevity of the springs or some other thing about the bracelet to work on improving slowly.


I've been on the fence about a Pelagos LHD for a long time, mostly for that bracelet and its free-adjustment zone springs. But there's too much overlap with my North Flag, which I couldn't bring myself to sell.



> I have looked at the 'trinity' and beside it and really can't see anything that would capture me for long enough except maybe, just maybe a Patek Nautilus but I see that as missing the mark ultimately.
> 
> For me personally, I think I will not be able to rest until I get to the resolve to just buy an Eichi II.


I'm supremely 'meh' about the Nautilus. An original Genta it may be, but the sticker price for a steel watch is ludicrous. AP's Royal Oak would be my preference, but again, it's stupidly overpriced. There are some really nice Calatrava models though (the 6006G for its art-deco styling, the 5196P small seconds for the Breguet numerals, and the 5227J officer case-back).

The Eichi II is very close to perfection, but I wish the movement finishing was executed in a more visually pleasing manner. The vertical brushing may be hand-applied and masterfully even, but it doesn't create much of a wow effect when you look at the case-back. Some of the independent Swiss masters can better the Eichi II on this front, Hodinkee wrote a great comparison against a Laurent Ferrier and Philippe Dufour:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/with-the-seiko-eichi-ii-versus-dufour-and-ferrier

Dufour's finishing is unparalleled, IMO. And considering he helped train some of the watchmakers at Seiko's Micro Artist Studio we might have follow-ups to the Eichi with more of a wave finish to look forward to.

My current dream grail watch is the L.U.Chopard XPS Twist QF Fairmined:
https://www.ablogtowatch.com/chopard-l-u-c-xps-twist-qf-fairmined-watch/

Which combines an almost GS-like dial pattern and a unique hand shape (dauphine-fusee), with a Quality Fleurier certification (probably the most arduous Swiss certification available, measuring everything from accuracy to finishing) and a Fairmined ethical gold case. But such things remain in the world of unattainable dreams for my forseeable future


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## locolockman (Jan 12, 2010)

You've got to be joking. GS are nice watches but there are so many other choices. I am a Seiko fan and am glad they provide watches at the high end of affordable watches, but you also have JLC, IWC, ALS, Rolex, VC, and many others, making phenomenal watches with their own individual style. To each their own, but you are stuck in a rut.


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## YMII (Aug 31, 2017)

There is also a completely different new design from Grand Seiko, perhaps too new to be accepted by most. I found my personal exit-watch in it and the Rolex linger in the bank locker ....

Grand Seiko SBGC219:


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## andreas_mw (May 2, 2018)

valuewatchguy said:


> I think different watches have their own unique merits. GS is my most favorite brand. But other brands are good enough to make my own collection for various reasons. No, they arent finished better than a GS, not even close. But GS can't give me the look of my Speedy Pro with Hesalite glass. I dont own a Sub but Seiko/GS doesnt want to build a moderately sized GS diver and the sub fills that void in spades with an iconic look that GS doesnt provide. If you wanted the military style look that Panerai gives what can GS offer instead?
> 
> My point is that GS is great but for me not the right choice for every buyer. Enjoy your GS watches!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I agree with you


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## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

andreas_mw said:


> I agree with you


+1


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## zuiko (May 17, 2016)

I remembered this post from a while ago tonight while spending time with my new SBGH205. I don't know how many watches GS puts out per annum but let me estimate 50,000 and whether it is double that or half, matters not when you consider it is miniscule compared to the output of the Swiss watch industry.

We are fortunate enough to be able to own handmade things at the prices the Swiss do for machine made mass produced watches.

They used to describe Grand Seiko as the Japanese Rolex back in the day. It's interesting I think that while the attainment of Rolex qualities attrbuted to a Japanese company is seemingly trivial; that it would be hard to say that there is any one Swiss company that could yet deserve the title of the Swiss Seiko.

- - - Updated - - -

I remembered this post from a while ago tonight while spending time with my new SBGH205. I don't know how many watches GS puts out per annum but let me estimate 50,000 and whether it is double that or half, matters not when you consider it is miniscule compared to the output of the Swiss watch industry.

We are fortunate enough to be able to own handmade things at the prices the Swiss do for machine made mass produced watches.

They used to describe Grand Seiko as the Japanese Rolex back in the day. It's interesting I think that while the attainment of Rolex qualities attrbuted to a Japanese company is seemingly trivial; that it would be hard to say that there is any one Swiss company that could yet deserve the title of the Swiss Seiko.


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## nhlducks35 (Nov 26, 2017)

I like them but I really wish they would update their bracelets to be more on par with Rolex


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## blowlamp (Jan 15, 2018)

nhlducks35 said:


> I like them but I really wish they would update their bracelets to be more on par with Rolex


In what way do you see them as inferior?


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## cuttlefish (Nov 26, 2017)

The GS design language is constrained because that is the aspect of Seiko horology that GS participates in. Seiko has a range of different emphases running from Credor to Seiko 5. There are deep divers, field watches, designer watches, multifunction watches, etc...but these aren't what GS is about. 

If you want something really diifferent from GS, then you don't want a GS.


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## TypeSly (Jan 9, 2018)

Grand Seiko is my favorite watch company, but for some reason I feel like I have to own a Rolex before I can buy a GS... Maybe it's to say "I have a Rolex, but I'm choosing to wear my GS". I don't know why. OH well, it's probably not a "problem" I'll have for awhile :-d


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## ivanos (Jun 25, 2016)

I have the same problem, too. Before I got my first GS, I was so much expecting the 114300 black dial released in 2018. But now after I handled the GS, when I saw the black dial 114300 in person again, I can only feel it is simply 'plain'. With similar price point, I simply don't have the appetite to pursue it anymore. I want to, but simply can't.


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## Artking3 (Mar 24, 2018)

bgator said:


> I'm new to GS and have yet to buy my first although I doubt it will be long.
> 
> This summarizes my feelings. One GS will probably be enough for me. I appreciate many different brands and styles and tend toward diversity in my collection. And there is not a lot of diversity in the GS catalog.
> 
> Some people like to collect all the historic variations of one particular model or they stick to one brand but that's just not me.


I thought I was the only one with these thoughts, but guess not. I got my one Grand Seiko GMT LE and that is enough to satisfy me.


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## orbitalheel (Jan 26, 2018)

Love the look of GS watches, but until they begin offering some smaller sized options I probably won't have another anytime soon.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## dannyking (Feb 9, 2013)

bgator said:


> I'm new to GS and have yet to buy my first although I doubt it will be long.
> 
> This summarizes my feelings. One GS will probably be enough for me. I appreciate many different brands and styles and tend toward diversity in my collection. And there is not a lot of diversity in the GS catalog.
> 
> Some people like to collect all the historic variations of one particular model or they stick to one brand but that's just not me.


+1 to that. They need to come up with a broader range.


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## cuttlefish (Nov 26, 2017)

dannyking said:


> +1 to that. They need to come up with a broader range.


???? How broad does it need to be ????

Here is their 2018 catalog....its seems pretty darn diverse.

http://seiko.com.au/sites/seiko.com...ns/3534_Grand_Seiko_Catalogue_2017-18_AUS.pdf


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## orbitalheel (Jan 26, 2018)

GS is really what pulled me into the 'luxury' level brands. When I first saw the Snowflake I knew I would have to buy one eventually. Ultimately though I have branched into other brands for two main reasons:

1) GS watches are relatively big, and as someone with a skinny wrist many of their models just don't wear well in me.

2) Not many of their watches have lume, which is something I love having on my watches.

Their quality is amazing though and I'm sure I'll buy one again in the future. I continue to monitor their new releases for any sporty 36-38mm models.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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