# Your Top Flieger Watch (Brand)



## eliz

Good Day All!

Lets hope I'm not gonna potentially stir a war here but I'd very much love to hear who thinks which brand trumps and why?

In terms of Value, Quality, History & Recognition.

Which Flieger brand will trump over which in your terms?
Stowa, Laco, Fortis, Archimede, Steinhart, Damasko, Dievas etc etc.

Feel free to shoot. 

Cheers and Peace out (;


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## StufflerMike

Fortis is swiss.


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## Fatz028

I would say Tutima.


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## sidders

IWC


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## flyingpicasso

Based on your signature block it looks like you've already decided in Stowa's favor, no?


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## heb

I would say Fortis. Swiss or not.

heb


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## Janne

Vintage Flieger - Laco, Stowa
Modern Flieger - Sinn, etc

For a Flieger chrono - Tutima, Hanhart


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## woodsworth

If we are including Swiss brands, I would have to nominate IWC. 

German only? Probably a toss-up between Stowa and Laco


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## portauto

IWC without a doubt, but also the GO Senator Navigator is stunning and would be my top choice for a flieger

Stowa and Laco are the obvious picks

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## Janne

GO has no history of msking Fliegers.


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## portauto

Janne said:


> GO has no history of msking Fliegers.


Yup I realize they lack the history, but so long as ALS is no longer producing fliegers then this would be as close as you could get to a manufacture German flieger in my opinion.

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## woodsworth

Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my current understanding that ALS and GO were actually one company during WWII. When they reestablished in 1990, ALS kept the name, and left GO with the patents? If that is true, wouldn't GO have somewhat of a history making Fliegers?

If I have it wrong, I apologize. Please feel free to educate


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## Fatz028

Don't for get Azimuth makes German Replica pilots watches of WII.


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## Janne

mn85 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but it is my current understanding that ALS and GO were actually one company during WWII. When they reestablished in 1990, ALS kept the name, and left GO with the patents? If that is true, wouldn't GO have somewhat of a history making Fliegers?
> 
> If I have it wrong, I apologize. Please feel free to educate


I do not think so. ALS got nationalized in 1948 by the commies together with all other E. German brands. After the regime collapsed, that " kombinat" broke apart. ALS got reborn in 1990. GO is another offshoot from this kombinat?

Moderator Mike S. knows all the details.


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## Cursor

Very subjective, but my opinion for a replica of the vintage is the Stowa FO, and for a modern update, Damasko DA36.


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## mattjmcd

If it *must* be German ( which it ought not be, IMO ) than I'd say the best mix of value and quality is Damasko. My favorite flieger ( as a pilot and history buff I reserve the right to set my own definition ) is Anglo-Swiss- the Bremont MBII.


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## eliz

My apologies for not stating clearly the "criteria" to this debate. But anyway, this thread does not limit us to only German brands but their Swiss counter parts as well. Also, I'd prefer leaving out the "higher-end" brands like IWC, GO etc to allow a fairer view towards this comparison. (Theres no point in comparing a $10,000 watch to a $1,000 watch, is there?)

Long story short, I'm more interested in the comparison between the rest of the "not so high ends".

P/S: I've made my choice of going with the Stowa but I'm still interested to know the general preference of the WUS crowd.

Cheers


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## Fatz028

Real Fliegers were made by Tutima and Hanhart.


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## Cursor

Fatz028 said:


> Real Fliegers were made by Tutima and Hanhart.


Do you mind to clarify? I thought that "real" fliegers were only made by Wempe, Stowa, Laco, IWC & Lange 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f438/beobachtungsuhr-brief-explanation-650434.html

Or do you mean something else when you say "real?"


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## brainless

Fatz028 said:


> Don't for get Azimuth makes German Replica pilots watches of WII.


Their watches are only caricatures of the original WW ll B-Uhr, IMHO.
Look into the backside: Massive spacer to hold a -comparatively- tiny movement, especially with the 55 mm watch.
The 6497-1 is a good movement, but this combination is ridiculous,

Volker ;-)


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## Fatz028

Cursor said:


> Do you mind to clarify? I thought that "real" fliegers were only made by Wempe, Stowa, Laco, IWC & Lange
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f438/beobachtungsuhr-brief-explanation-650434.html
> 
> Or do you mean something else when you say "real?"


Do some research on Tutima. They made the original Germans Pilots watch in WWII. They were originally from Glashutte Germany and were forced to move when they were Bombed. The original Tutima Fliegers sell between $5,000 to $10,000. Here is a link that will help you. http://general.watchprosite.com/show-nblog.post/ti-496641/


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## Fatz028

That's why I said Replica.


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## Janne

OK, I see that some confusion exist.

The "5" manufacturers ( only 4 in reality) made 55mm large watches ( Beobachter uhren) that were given to the Navigators before the mission.
The Tutima and Hanhart chronos were issuedd to Fighter Pilots.
The term " Flieger" is a generalised term, I assume it means that the watch was used aboard an aircraft, so all the companies ( Laco, Stowa, Wempe, Lange, ( IWC), Tutima and Hanhart are correct answers.

IMHO!

And Tutima was not moved because it got bombed. The factory was fine, it was taken over by the occupying Soviet army, the equipment stolen and shipped to the Soviet Union, where they continued the production.

The boss wisely escaped to West Germany, where he restarted the factory.


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## portauto

Janne said:


> OK, I see that some confusion exist.
> 
> The "5" manufacturers ( only 4 in reality) made 55mm large watches ( Beobachter uhren) that were given to the Navigators before the mission.
> The Tutima and Hanhart chronos were issuedd to Fighter Pilots.
> The term " Flieger" is a generalised term, I assume it means that the watch was used aboard an aircraft, so all the companies ( Laco, Stowa, Wempe, Lange, ( IWC), Tutima and Hanhart are correct answers.
> 
> IMHO!


Thanks Janne! Learned something new

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


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## Janne

Just to clarify: the reason I do not see IWC as a " real" manufacturer of the B- uhren is because they did only a very limited production in the beginning, the early version with the A dial.

I can think of three reasons why they were not producing them during the whole conflict:

Maybe they got a small order only untill the other companies ( Laco specially) got the production going
Maybe Luftwaffe preferred a German made watch
Maybe they were too expensive

Maybe all three? - Nobody knows!


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## topher512

Janne said:


> Vintage Flieger - Laco, Stowa
> Modern Flieger - Sinn, etc
> 
> For a Flieger chrono - Tutima, Hanhart


I second this vote.


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## Fatz028

I had no idea Wempe existed back then.


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## Janne

Fatz028 said:


> I had no idea Wempe existed back then.


Proudly made in Germany since 1878!


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## eliz

pardon my ignorance but are Wempe n NOMOS somehow related? why is it I've seen some NOMOS watches being associated with Wempe?


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## Fatz028

There is no history on Wempe making a Flieger.


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## Janne

Yes, Wempe assembled the Beobachter uhr. They assembld them for Laco, if for any of the others, I am not sure .

Fatz28! I recommend you invest some money in the excellent book by Konrad Knirim. Your knowledge has some deficiencies. Easily fixed by that book!


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## Mathytou

Go for a Stowa flieger, you'll not be disapointed: great value price/quality/finishing.
I own a type B.


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## Quartersawn

Mathytou said:


> Go for a Stowa flieger, you'll not be disapointed: great value price/quality/finishing.
> I own a type B.


Great advice on the Stowa. Hanhart makes a nice watch, too. :-!


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## Fatz028

Janne said:


> Yes, Wempe assembled the Beobachter uhr. They assembld them for Laco, if for any of the others, I am not sure .
> 
> Fatz28! I recommend you invest some money in the excellent book by Konrad Knirim. Your knowledge has some deficiencies. Easily fixed by that book!


Are you making a Mockery of me.


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## Fatz028

Janne said:


> OK, I see that some confusion exist.
> 
> The "5" manufacturers ( only 4 in reality) made 55mm large watches ( Beobachter uhren) that were given to the Navigators before the mission.
> The Tutima and Hanhart chronos were issuedd to Fighter Pilots.
> The term " Flieger" is a generalised term, I assume it means that the watch was used aboard an aircraft, so all the companies ( Laco, Stowa, Wempe, Lange, ( IWC), Tutima and Hanhart are correct answers.
> 
> IMHO!
> 
> And Tutima was not moved because it got bombed. The factory was fine, it was taken over by the occupying Soviet army, the equipment stolen and shipped to the Soviet Union, where they continued the production.
> 
> The boss wisely escaped to West Germany, where he restarted the factory.


Read it was destroyed.
Tutima Watches


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## Janne

Fatz028 said:


> Are you making a Mockery of me.


No, just pointing out that you are wrong. You are not aware of the assmbly by Wempe etc.
All I know about the B uhren I got myself from Knirims book, plus " researching" the internet. It also helps that I know a little bit about the Luftwaffe.

Do not get upset because somebody knows more than you do. I am still learning lots about horology, despitevbeing a collector gor more than 25 years!


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## Janne

Fatz028 said:


> Read it was destroyed.
> Tutima Watches


I am sure it got badly damaged ( not much escaped getting damaged by the indiscriminate bombings) but the tools and machinery were in a good enough condition to be stolen by the Soviet invaders, and set up in S. U. so the watch production continued.


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## Fatz028

Janne said:


> No, just pointing out that you are wrong. You are not aware of the assmbly by Wempe etc.
> All I know about the B uhren I got myself from Knirims book, plus " researching" the internet. It also helps that I know a little bit about the Luftwaffe.
> 
> Do not get upset because somebody knows more than you do. I am still learning lots about horology, despitevbeing a collector gor more than 25 years!


I knew nothing about Wempe because it was never pointed out when I read about the company or the history of Laco's either. Not upset at all. I am sure you probably do know a little more then me.


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## Janne

I stumbled on the Wempe connection when I was involved in the WUS LE a couple of years ago. Inside the caseback, the details about the watch are engraved. Several Laco B- uhrs on sale around the world with a B dial were assembled by Wempe. I guess the manufacturing capacity by Laco ( of the individual components and movements) was greater than the assembly capacity.
So they send the bits and pieces to another manufacture to get assembled. We must not forget that when Soviet Union had to join in yhe war against the German/ Austrians, the need for those watches increased, also the attrition rate of the bomber units grew.


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## Janne

Just to add, the B- uhren made in Pforzheim are called Laco made by Lacher, and the Wempe ones Laco made by Wempe, if we translate to English.

Once the factory in Pforzheim got pulverised in early 1945, more watches were assembled by Wempe, but they run I guess out of parts. Not that it mattered, as by that time Germany did not have an active Luftwaffe left. Few pilots, very little fuel.


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## KUNISMAN

Fatz028 said:


> I knew nothing about Wempe because it was never pointed out when I read about the company or the history of Laco's either. Not upset at all. I am sure you probably do know a little more then me.


You´ll find some info here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3666531/B-Uhr%20Article.pdf
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3666531/B-UhrArticle.rar


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## Janne

Excellent. So Wempe made " inhouse" ( but with an outsourced movement?) watch.

Another thing I learned earler today, while checking the approx value of a Laco A dialled B-uhr of the Antiquorum site, was that a few b- uhrs had an outside compression ring around the crystal.


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## Janne

www.knirim.de/rlmbhi.pdf

A good read.


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## Fatz028

KUNISMAN said:


> You´ll find some info here:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3666531/B-Uhr Article.pdf
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3666531/B-UhrArticle.rar


Thank you for the links. I knew all the watch brands involved for the Germans. Just never knew Wempe was involved. There are a couple Laco's on the bay going for big bucks as well as Tutima's. My dream is to own one of these pieces of history. What was the caliber of the IWC's movement?


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## StufflerMike

The movements:


Lange & Söhne: cal. 48/1
Laco: Durowe cal. D 5
Stowa: Unitas cal. 2812
Wempe: Thommen cal. 31
IWC: cal. 52 SC (SC= „seconde central“)


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## brainless

Fatz028 said:


> Thank you for the links. I knew all the watch brands involved for the Germans. Just never knew Wempe was involved. There are a couple Laco's on the bay going for big bucks as well as Tutima's. My dream is to own one of these pieces of history. What was the caliber of the IWC's movement?


If you read the first of KUNISMAN's link, you will learn that it was a Cal. 52 SC.
We won't consider the TUTIMA and HANHART watches you mentioned as "proven official" pieces.For those watches there are no official supply orders and/or mandatory designs, given by RLM, known - contrary to the "B-Uhr".
They were worn by pilots and other military personnel too. 
I don't know a source where an official order is shown.

@ Janne:
In 1945 WEMPE didn't supply any of the Fliegers, since they weren't paid by the airforce any longer. Many Fliegers were assembled after WW ll. Most of them later accompanied soldiers of the occupation forces back home.
IWC *never* produced for the German Airforce. They only made about 1200 movements Cal. 52SC. 1000 were built in B-Uhr "A" and sent to IWC's German agent Siegried Heindorf in Berlin. They differ from the four other brands by an additional inner anti magnetic case and a cylindrical or a triangular crown. The case was made of stainless steel.
The remaining 200 movements Cal. 52 SC were used for watches given to British pilots. b-)

Volker ;-)


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## Janne

brainless said:


> If you read the first of KUNISMAN's link, you will learn that it was a Cal. 52 SC.
> We won't consider the TUTIMA and HANHART watches you mentioned as "proven official" pieces.For those watches there are no official supply orders and/or mandatory designs, given by RLM, known - contrary to the "B-Uhr".
> They were worn by pilots and other military personnel too.
> I don't know a source where an official order is shown.
> 
> @ Janne:
> In 1945 WEMPE didn't supply any of the Fliegers, since they weren't paid by the airforce any longer. Many Fliegers were assembled after WW ll. Most of them later accompanied soldiers of the occupation forces back home.
> IWC *never* produced for the German Airforce. They only made about 1200 movements Cal. 52SC. 1000 were built in B-Uhr "A" and sent to IWC's German agent Siegried Heindorf in Berlin. They differ from the four other brands by an additional inner anti magnetic case and a cylindrical or a triangular crown. The case was made of stainless steel.
> The remaining 200 movements Cal. 52 SC were used for watches given to British pilots. b-)
> 
> Volker ;-)


But thr IWC B- uhrs were used by the Luftwaffe? 
I have read that Knirim misunderstood the movement holder for an antimagnetic protection. Of course it could function as such, but the watches lack the soft iron plate behind the dial, and between the movement and caseback.

And there are no strong magnetic forces aboard an aircraft.

Everybody sold to everybody. Excellent business opportunities, during a war!

The Brits bought optics from Germany all through the war. And Germany bought stuff from the US. 
With Switzerland as in between partner.


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## Janne

I believe Tutima and Hanhart were supplied to the Fighter pilots. They were expensive pieces, and the pilots were not that well paid.


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## Fatz028

brainless said:


> If you read the first of KUNISMAN's link, you will learn that it was a Cal. 52 SC.
> We won't consider the TUTIMA and HANHART watches you mentioned as "proven official" pieces.For those watches there are no official supply orders and/or mandatory designs, given by RLM, known - contrary to the "B-Uhr".
> They were worn by pilots and other military personnel too.
> I don't know a source where an official order is shown.
> 
> @ Janne:
> In 1945 WEMPE didn't supply any of the Fliegers, since they weren't paid by the airforce any longer. Many Fliegers were assembled after WW ll. Most of them later accompanied soldiers of the occupation forces back home.
> IWC *never* produced for the German Airforce. They only made about 1200 movements Cal. 52SC. 1000 were built in B-Uhr "A" and sent to IWC's German agent Siegried Heindorf in Berlin. They differ from the four other brands by an additional inner anti magnetic case and a cylindrical or a triangular crown. The case was made of stainless steel.
> The remaining 200 movements Cal. 52 SC were used for watches given to British pilots. b-)
> 
> Volker ;-)


I am sure there were different watches for the Luftwaffe. I am sure there were bombers watches and I am sure there were fighters pilots watches. I read different things and some say that Tutima was a watch for the Luftwaffe. Wikipedia says it was and so does wristwatch annual. Who knows.


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## brainless

> But thr IWC B- uhrs were used by the Luftwaffe?


Yes Jan,

but they were provided by Heindorf, not by IWC directly - that was what I meant by "IWC never produced for the German Airforce".

I also read about the question, if the additional case is only dust- or antimagnetic-protection.
Since it could serve as antimagnetic protection I tend to believe it is one,

Volker ;-)


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## Fatz028

What does the word Flieger translate? What does Beobachter uhren translate?


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## StufflerMike

Fatz028 said:


> What does the word Flieger translate? What does Beobachter uhren translate?


Why not just using the search function ? For your convenience: https://www.watchuseek.com/f7/please-educate-me-flieger-vs-b-uhr-vs-type-type-b-thanks-471074.html


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## Janne

brainless said:


> Yes Jan,
> 
> but they were provided by Heindorf, not by IWC directly - that was what I meant by "IWC never produced for the German Airforce".
> 
> I also read about the question, if the additional case is only dust- or antimagnetic-protection.
> Since it could serve as antimagnetic protection I tend to believe it is one,
> 
> Volker ;-)


Got you! Heindorf ordered the design from IWC ( " Private Label" style) and then supplied the Luftwaffe.

As they did not have the soft Iron protection on the disl and caseback side, the AM protection did not exist. The S/s caseback has no AM properties, nor has the (brass?) dial.

Plus, the specs did not require any AM protection.


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## ctujack

Got to be this one for me.


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## Quartersawn

Fatz028 said:


> What does the word Flieger translate? What does Beobachter uhren translate?


I don't speak German, the best I can do is say "please", "thank you" and count to eleven.

Google translate - which can be iffy at times - says:

Flieger = Flyer

Beobachter = Observer

uhren = watch


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## StufflerMike

Saxon007 said:


> Flieger = Flyer


Sorry ...totally misleading. "Flieger" = pilot, Flieger Uhr = pilot's watch.


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## Janne

Luftfahrzeugführer?

Imo a Pilot is the person behing the steering and flying.

Flieger is a more general description. 

Or?

Many of those Flieger watches are not based on a historic wrist worn instrument, but on the dashboard mounted clock.
Sinn started his watchmaker career by designing and making dashboard clocks.


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## Quartersawn

stuffler said:


> Sorry ...totally misleading. "Flieger" = pilot, Flieger Uhr = pilot's watch.


As I stated, Google can be a bit iffy at times. Thanks for clearing it up.


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## pablo303

Damasko Da36 as a modern version of pilot watch, but should be rather treated as tool watch with some pilot watch traces
Stowa Flieger - a classic pilot in design


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## CM HUNTER

Well, since I own a Sinn 857 UTC, a Damasko DC66, a Laco B dial auto, a Stowa Flieger Original, and a Archimede XLH top grade, it really doesn't matter which one is "better". Just pick the one you want to wear for the day and enjoy.


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## Janne

CM HUNTER said:


> Well, since I own a Sinn 857 UTC, a Damasko DC66, a Laco B dial auto, a Stowa Flieger Original, and a Archimede XLH top grade, it really doesn't matter which one is "better". Just pick the one you want to wear for the day and enjoy.


if you compare the quality of them, what do you think? Plus the "value for money" aspect?


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## CM HUNTER

Hi Janne,
For value for money I'd have to say the Stowa has it. I chose my pilot watches the way I did based on the features. Chronograph, UTC/GMT, historical significance, size, dial design, etc. Think I have all bases covered now. Quality wise it's just tough to say. I would not have bought any of them if I thought they were lacking in quality in some way.


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## StufflerMike

Some post deleted. Watchuseek is not the place to act out rivalry !
Guys please behave.


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## Magnus.LPA

I know it is an old thread, but some might be happy to read it, like I was, so I'm going to participate.

My opinion is that Archimede has great value for money. And I'm not saying that just because I own one 
They have quality movements, a good build, and a perfect look in my opinion. 

Last but not least, you can pick between 36mm, 39mm, 42mm, and 45mm. This is great, and if I'm not mistaken, only them do that.

Laco also have small ones with their 36mm models, which aren't bad either. I got a "Birmingham" for my wife, who really wanted a PVD watch, and it looks quite fantastic on her.


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## CM HUNTER

Magnus.LPA said:


> I know it is an old thread, but some might be happy to read it, like I was, so I'm going to participate.
> 
> My opinion is that Archimede has great value for money. And I'm not saying that just because I own one
> They have quality movements, a good build, and a perfect look in my opinion.
> 
> Last but not least, you can pick between 36mm, 39mm, 42mm, and 45mm. This is great, and if I'm not mistaken, only them do that.
> 
> Laco also have small ones with their 36mm models, which aren't bad either. I got a "Birmingham" for my wife, who really wanted a PVD watch, and it looks quite fantastic on her.


Glad you revived this thread. It's very informative for others.

I agree Archimede makes a wonderful flieger of great quality. The choices offered by Archimede are definitely greater than any other brand and, at the risk of sounding like a commercial, they are truly a one-stop-shop for all of your flieger needs (especially when they come out with the B-dial, which is supposed to be soon.) Of course, anybody can appreciate the fact that you get an in-house case as well.

I've let go of a few to my brother and nephew, and I've only kept my Damasko for my innovative modern flieger, and changed to an Archimede 42 H as my representation of a historical flieger.


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## Fortuna

1) IWC (best Pilot´s watches)
2) Tourby Watches (best value for money)
3) Wempe (the old model with the Unitas center second)
4) Chronoswiss (may not typical flieger but nice)
5) Azimuth (a little bit overpriced but you can get them for less on the second hand market)


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## sci

For the authentic design - Laco. For modern interpretation - Stowa and Damasko.


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## monsterphil

Laco...

I just wanted revive this thread for the information


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## Revan




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