# Watches Referencing Architects



## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

My interest in the relationship between watches and architects started with the seminal designs of Max Bill for Junghans in the 1960s, which a friend alerted me to. Max Bill was a multidisciplinary Bauhaus artist and designer, whose remit included architecture. To my knowledge Junghans has kept reiterations of Max Bill’s designs in their catalogues ever since. His watch designs still enjoy considerable popularity and have influenced many minimalist and Bauhaus inspired pieces since.









In fact, I would argue that purchasing a Junghans Max Bill has turned out to be my gateway into watch collecting a few years ago. It was the first ‘serious’ watch I bought myself after having been gifted a nicely classical automatic Frédérique Constant eons before.









So, what is my purpose with this post? For long-term members among us, well over a decade ago @jporos started a thread on a somewhat similar pursuit: Architect/Artist Designed Fashion Watches. Now, if the passage of time wasn’t enough to revisit this, I up the ante by stating I’m not particularly interested in accessible ‘fashion brand watches’ penned or merely co-branded by architects. Nor am I necessarily looking for watches destined or deemed suitable for those in architectural professions. Instead, my double pursuit in this post is to discuss and build a visual collection of qualitative watches that:

1. Have been designed by architects (or designers who also practiced architecture)​or​2. Watches that explicitly reference architects (for example in the model name).​
We might end up discussing why the latter group of watch models are called ‘architect’ – these also exist among fashion brands (or indeed the unremarkable thirteen-to-the-dozen Architect London Personalised Watches For Men & Women | Engraved Minimalist Watches UK watch brand) – or what motivates architects to branch out into watch design. But I’d also appreciate just collecting and critiquing examples of watches you know of (or own) that reference architects. In addition, I have seen watch designs being described as ‘architectural’ in a figurative sense. So what constitutes an ‘architectural’ watch in watch design to you?

I’ll kick off by giving recent microbrand examples of each.

Designed for microbrand Bravur by Gert Wingårdh, because it was my first microbrand watch:










Estonia 1918 Arhitekt, because I am rather taken with this pretty high-end offering (I found out about this watch brand via WUS thanks to @Finnish Joe)










Batavi Architect, because it is from my motherland (pictured is ‘blue steel’ which I find most in keeping with minimalist expectations, but they did various dial materials, colours, and designs so far)









Over to you, lovely, knowledgeable, and interesting people of WUS.


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## shengsir168 (11 mo ago)

I also love minimalist Bauhaus style watches。


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

shengsir168 said:


> I also love minimalist Bauhaus style watches。


Though based on the examples called architect, I don't think the Bauhaus genre is what determines watches' claims on architects/architecture. Indeed, it is the case that the Windgårdh gives a strong vibe to the line work on the Max Bill. I actually find it difficult to say if I find the more decorative Bravur or the more minimalist Junghans the better option, though I do think the Max Bill has simply proven it's longevity and has reasserted its place in my rotation.


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## shengsir168 (11 mo ago)

nice! You love it。


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

I was hoping this thread might generate some ideas. Perhaps this is just an odd interest of mine, or the phenomenon is rarer than I thought (outside of the previously explored architects dabbling in fashion watch brands). I did notice today that Mido has two LE watches in its catalogue that are explicitly 'inspired by architecture'. So, if we assume that there may be an expectation for watches referencing architects or designed by architects to have some inherent 'architectural' quality, watches inspired by architecture would fit that brief, too. Certainly, in Mido's case this is to be taken quite literally, as both models are inspired by a particular iconic heritage building, the Colosseum and the Opéra de Rennes (guess which is which):


















The first is possibly more accessibly handsome, but I love the unconventional textured patterning on the second. I just think the handset is a little off. In my opinion I would have expected coherence with the hour markers.


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## L-800 (Jul 16, 2013)

"The SEXTANT watch was created back in the 1940s. It was offered, at Le Corbusier, in homage to the amazing architect that he was. Not to mention that her favorite things, was the protractor, the ruler and the compass needle."








"Juvenia is established since 1860, in La Chaux de Fonds, where Le Corbusier was born:
“Charles-Edouard Jeanneret-Gris”, (his real name), was born on October 6, 1887, in La Chaux-de-Fonds, Canton of Neuchâtel, Switzerland, and died on August 27, 1965, in Roquebrune-Cap-Martin in France. He’s best known under the pseudonym of “Le Corbusier”, and was a famous architect, planner, decorator, painter, sculptor and writer, Swiss by birth and naturalized French in 1931."
Source: Wristreview


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Charles Rennie Macintosh was an architect among other things. Here is a wristwatch dial design that he created and which has been reproduced in several versions over the years:


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Chascomm said:


> Charles Rennie Macintosh was an architect among other things. Here is a wristwatch dial design that he created and which has been reproduced in several versions over the years:
> 
> View attachment 16490639
> View attachment 16490641
> View attachment 16490647


What's this CRM brand that produced this design? Is it still in production somewhere?


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

L-800 said:


> View attachment 16490594
> 
> "The SEXTANT watch was created back in the 1940s. It was offered, at Le Corbusier, in homage to the amazing architect that he was. Not to mention that her favorite things, was the protractor, the ruler and the compass needle."
> View attachment 16490595
> ...


Yes, I think I've seen this before on the old thread I mentioned. It's a very literal approach to an architect's watch, as in, the tools of the architect's craft. For me, this makes it less and architect's or architectural design than a novelty. Perhaps a little like making watches referencing specific buildings, like the Midos I just posted. Did Juvenia really present their design to Le Corbusier, or did they merely pay homage to his achievements?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Benjamin NV said:


> What's this CRM brand that produced this design? Is it still in production somewhere?


I've no idea. I recalled seeing watches like this in the past so I did a quick Googling and found various designs, some of which _might_ still be in production. Here is what i think is the most current source:
The Charles Rennie Mackintosh Watch Collection (rennie-mackintosh-jewellery.co.uk)

There are other watches inspired more by his fine arts work (e.g. pocket watches with rose motifs), and round wristwatches that incorporate some of his distinctive design elements, but I think it is the rectangular shapes that best reflect the feel of his work in both architecture and design. In fact I think the surface has barely been scratched of the watch design possibilities inspired by his work.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Chascomm said:


> I've no idea. I recalled seeing watches like this in the past so I did a quick Googling and found various designs, some of which _might_ still be in production. Here is what i think is the most current source:
> The Charles Rennie Mackintosh Watch Collection (rennie-mackintosh-jewellery.co.uk)
> 
> There are other watches inspired more by his fine arts work (e.g. pocket watches with rose motifs), and round wristwatches that incorporate some of his distinctive design elements, but I think it is the rectangular shapes that best reflect the feel of his work in both architecture and design. In fact I think the surface has barely been scratched of the watch design possibilities inspired by his work.


Thanks for the link. I'm rying to figure out what to think of it. For me the appeal is clearly in using recognisable Mackintosh traits in the watch design. In the variants they offer, it's really not badly done. At the same time, though, the prices suggest very cheap components and subpar production processes, effectively rendering it more of a 'fashion watch' (by my vague definition), albeit outside of the main fashion brands. Also, considering Mackintosh's time of death, I suppose he did not design these. Naturally I wouldn't want to bash designers doing a good job being inspired by someone else's work, but unless it would really stack up in the metal, this feels like a somewhat fleeting and flimsy approach to it, regrettably.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

On the other hand, there is a grain of genuinity about it, as Mackintosh did design clocks. I believe this may be an original Mackintosh design:


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Recent browsing alerted me to two further examples of exactly the thing I was after (suggesting there may be more hidden away).

The first is a model by a brand of some repute and heritage: Girard Perregaux. Incidentally versions of the Laureato, which goes back to 1975, so an early follower of the design language pioneered by the original Zenith Defy (see recent reissue!) and Gérald Genta's Royal Oak, have caught my eye before. I'm including a picture of a fairly recent favourite in this line, simply because it really underlines a dress version within this design approach. The original Laureato was designed by Adolfo Natalini, who reportedly had a penchant for mathematically derived patterns and geometry in architecture. I can see how especially the Defy's case of 1969 would have inspired him.








The second is by valued microbrand Oak & Oscar, in fact, their often praised Olmsted. This turns out to be a watch not designed by an architect, but referencing Frederick Law Olmsted, who is credited as the spiritual father of landscape architecture. No mean feat. How exactly their design references Olmsted I'm uncertain of. One might suspect that honouring him was a thankful way of keeping the alliteration going. I'm posting the grey dial version for internal consistency.


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

A very interesting thread! Somehow I missed it until today.

Okay, let's see. There's Walter Gropius (German Architect and founder of the Bauhaus school) watches









Bulova has a lot of models on their Frank Lloyd Wright collection


















Maybe stretching things a bit (he studied Architecture, although, as far as I know, he never actually worked as one), but there's also the Raketa Classic Big Zero Malevich, sort of an "homage" to one of Kazimir Malevich's most renowned paintings the "Black Square". Interestingly, the dial is made of 3 different stones.









Lastly, still stretching things a bit, there's the Hermès Carré H, designed by French architect Marc Berthier and reportedly became known as "the architect watch", given the appeal its design had among architects and designers.









Cheers!


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Elmero said:


> A very interesting thread! Somehow I missed it until today.
> 
> Okay, let's see. There's Walter Gropius (German Architect and founder of the Bauhaus school) watches
> 
> ...


This is a fantastic contribution. I only new about Frank Lloyd Wright inspired watches (he didn't do them himself, did he? So it's arguably a little like the Mackintosh before. It's interesting nonetheless and both architect-designers I appreciate. It's funny how I wouldn't necessarily describe the Gropius as a typical Bauhaus inspired watch, even though it clearly connects to that era. Intermittent lines is an interesting way of indicating time, also emphasising time is measured in blocks, like the new premium kids watch brand Blok. The Hermes is interesting because it has its lugs high up on what seems like a hefty case. Great stuff and clearly shows there is not necessarily any shared approach here.


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Benjamin NV said:


> This is a fantastic contribution. I only new about Frank Lloyd Wright inspired watches (he didn't do them himself, did he? So it's arguably a little like the Mackintosh before. It's interesting nonetheless and both architect-designers I appreciate. It's funny how I wouldn't necessarily describe the Gropius as a typical Bauhaus inspired watch, even though it clearly connects to that era. Intermittent lines is an interesting way of indicating time, also emphasising time is measured in blocks, like the new premium kids watch brand Blok. The Hermes is interesting because it has its lugs high up on what seems like a hefty case. Great stuff and clearly shows there is not necessarily any shared approach here.


Happy to contribute! As said, I find this thread's subject very interesting.
No, of course FLW didn't design these Bulova watches! AFAIK, Bulova signed a deal with Frank Lloyd Wright's estate, so kind of a licensing to use the name and, maybe, some of his work (blueprints, sketches, designs...)
I would argue that the Gropius is 100% Bauhaus. There's a tendency among WIS to think Bauhaus is just the "minimal" (black on white / white on black) stuff. To the point that some push deck watches as Bauhaus (!!) but colour was (is) very important for the Bauhaus school. There's one quote by Walter Gropius himself that epitomizes this: "Colorful is my favourite colour". I just think that back then (early 20th century) the materials, techniques and machines to make colorful dials/hands was very limited if not non-existent, thus limiting their original watches palette mostly to monochrome variations, but if you take a look at most other creative branches (painting, graphic design, furniture, textile...) their use of colour is all over the place. Bauhaus is very much alive and has evolved, of course. Anyways, here are two more Gropius watches:
















Looking forward to further posts by the community!


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Elmero said:


> Happy to contribute! As said, I find this thread's subject very interesting.
> No, of course FLW didn't design these Bulova watches! AFAIK, Bulova signed a deal with Frank Lloyd Wright's estate, so kind of a licensing to use the name and, maybe, some of his work (blueprints, sketches, designs...)
> I would argue that the Gropius is 100% Bauhaus. There's a tendency among WIS to think Bauhaus is just the "minimal" (black on white / white on black) stuff. To the point that some push deck watches as Bauhaus (!!) but colour was (is) very important for the Bauhaus school. There's one quote by Walter Gropius himself that epitomizes this: "Colorful is my favourite colour". I just think that back then (early 20th century) the materials, techniques and machines to make colorful dials/hands was very limited if not non-existent, thus limiting their original watches palette mostly to monochrome variations, but if you take a look at most other creative branches (painting, graphic design, furniture, textile...) their use of colour is all over the place. Bauhaus is very much alive and has evolved, of course. Anyways, here are two more Gropius watches:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the further input and couldn't agree more. Some of Max Bill's visual arts is also quite colourful. I guess, as these further Gropius examples to me illustrate, these designs do not quite as unilaterally fulfill the form follow function adage.


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Benjamin NV said:


> Thanks for the further input and couldn't agree more. Some of Max Bill's visual arts is also quite colourful. I guess, as these further Gropius examples to me illustrate, these designs do not quite as unilaterally fulfill the form follow function adage.


Totally agree that these examples don't follow the "form follow function". I guess they're more like "Bauhaus graphic design applied to a watch" if that makes any sense.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Elmero said:


> Bulova has a lot of models on their Frank Lloyd Wright collection


This Frank Lloyd Wright tribute is very much what I had in mind as befitting a Charles Rennie Macintosh tribute: strong vertical lines with the centre of visual mass radically shifted upwards and/or downwards with subtle late Art Nouveau motifs providing colour highlights. Achieving those highlights with an art glass crystal is genius.


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## nicegator (Apr 10, 2018)

Xezo Architect ( not my picture). My better half have similar model.
Text below is from Xezo website.
"The idea came from observations of ancient classical architecture in general, and in particular the ruins of Erechtheum Temple (on the Acropolis in Greece) finished by 405 B.C. Its unique plan features three facades at different levels, and is famous for complex, exquisite details; most notably the loveliest Ionic capitals Greece ever produced. This timepiece mirrors the temple’s classical beauty in many crucial ways. Each of the reverse columns on both sides of the hand-crafted case signifies one of the shrine’s façades. And the nine rectangular see-troughs--found on the top and bottom of the timepiece--resemble the moldings of the temple’s porch supported by ethereal sculpted figures."


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

nicegator said:


> Xezo Architect ( not my picture). My better half have similar model.
> Text below is from Xezo website.
> "The idea came from observations of ancient classical architecture in general, and in particular the ruins of Erechtheum Temple (on the Acropolis in Greece) finished by 405 B.C. Its unique plan features three facades at different levels, and is famous for complex, exquisite details; most notably the loveliest Ionic capitals Greece ever produced. This timepiece mirrors the temple’s classical beauty in many crucial ways. Each of the reverse columns on both sides of the hand-crafted case signifies one of the shrine’s façades. And the nine rectangular see-troughs--found on the top and bottom of the timepiece--resemble the moldings of the temple’s porch supported by ethereal sculpted figures."
> 
> View attachment 16513615


A very unusual architectural case. It's clearly I'm the category of building-inspired watch designs, such as the Midos above. Great find. Is it like a lever across the crown, I mean for access?


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## nicegator (Apr 10, 2018)

Benjamin NV said:


> A very unusual architectural case. It's clearly I'm the category of building-inspired watch designs, such as the Midos above. Great find. Is it like a lever across the crown, I mean for access?


It is static. The gap is wide enough to pull/ rotate /push the crown.


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## nicegator (Apr 10, 2018)

One more.
Codek spiral and Guggenheim museum - pictures














from internet.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

nicegator said:


> One more.
> Codek spiral and Guggenheim museum - pictures
> View attachment 16513695
> View attachment 16513696
> from internet.


It's a very interesting watch, and to think they initially sold it for a mere 300USD. But what I have not been able ot verify is that for Codek this watch references the Guggenheim museum. I can totally see it, though, but was it really the design's intention?


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## nicegator (Apr 10, 2018)

Benjamin NV said:


> It's a very interesting watch, and to think they initially sold it for a mere 300USD. But what I have not been able ot verify is that for Codek this watch references the Guggenheim museum. I can totally see it, though, but was it really the design's intention?


At least, this was my first impression when I saw Codek Spiral first time. 😊


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## Erolek (Jan 8, 2013)

Slightly within the topic:
I'm an architect and I designed couple of watches, so I think I just about qualify.

1. Design for Polish microbrand G.Gerlach (featuring ST19 chronograph). Called "Żubr" (Bison) as it's a bullhead design.

















2. Another design for G.Gerlach. This time for their 10th anniversary (7750 movement). Design brief was a pilot watch referencing 1930s fighter plane PZL p.11c

























3. This one I built for myself out of loose parts from Aliexpress. Self-printed dial and etching done in local engraving workshop. Miyota 8215 movement.

















4. And this is a frankenwatch based on Mumbai Special Orient (some sort of birth year design exercise)









Greetings
Eryk


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Erolek said:


> Slightly within the topic:
> I'm an architect and I designed couple of watches, so I think I just about qualify.
> 
> 1. Design for Polish microbrand G.Gerlach (featuring ST19 chronograph). Called "Żubr" (Bison) as it's a bullhead design.
> ...


Of course this totally counts! Other then this being a kind of curious genre, I was wondering with this thread if there are significant trends or commonalities in these kind of architectural watches. Looking at yours, it further adds variety. The first has a sculptural quality to me, which I quite like. Your self built, to me, has the most obviously architecturally inspired design, especially in the dial, of course. It's arguably more the line of design architects might come up with. The fourth has a graphic design like quality. Thanks for sharing these design here and keep up designing watches! I'd be interested to see what you come up with next. Also, how did you get into designing watches next to your usual profession?


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## nicegator (Apr 10, 2018)

Erolek said:


> Slightly within the topic:
> I'm an architect and I designed couple of watches, so I think I just about qualify.
> 
> 1. Design for Polish microbrand G.Gerlach (featuring ST19 chronograph). Called "Żubr" (Bison) as it's a bullhead design.
> ...


All these are awesome!
Maith thú coinnigh suas é!
( hope Google translate is correct)


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Stumbled into this one. Not referencing an architect, but most definitely architecture-related in more than one way.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Elmero said:


> Stumbled into this one. Not referencing an architect, but most definitely architecture-related in more than one way.


Yes, I see what you mean. There may also be reason to recognise a genre of 'architectural watches'. This would be a prime example! I quite like the segmented relief and depth, but to wear it I would be concerned with the overall thickness this must create on the wrist.


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Benjamin NV said:


> Yes, I see what you mean. There may also be reason to recognise a genre of 'architectural watches'. This would be a prime example! I quite like the segmented relief and depth, but to wear it I would be concerned with the overall thickness this must create on the wrist.


Seems like it's not that thick... A mere 14.5 mm. And 110 grams if concrete and steel!


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

I've recently learned for myself that every mm over ~10.5mm in thickness is a truly noticeable step up in the wrong direction for me, so 14mm would rule this out. I also confirmed that 41mm is pushing my maximum case size, so 45mm rules this out. In fact I find that on their own worst shots, it looks almost comically big, which is at odds with the rather serious material-driven geometric relief pattern that makes up the design language. I do appreciate the design, but fear it would spend it's days in a cabinet of curiosities... For those into truly big watches, I think it would make an interesting and unexpected choice.


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Benjamin NV said:


> I've recently learned for myself that every mm over ~10.5mm in thickness is a truly noticeable step up in the wrong direction for me, so 14mm would rule this out. I also confirmed that 41mm is pushing my maximum case size, so 45mm rules this out. In fact I find that on their own worst shots, it looks almost comically big, which is at odds with the rather serious material-driven geometric relief pattern that makes up the design language. I do appreciate the design, but fear it would spend it's days in a cabinet of curiosities... For those into truly big watches, I think it would make an interesting and unexpected choice.


Agreed. I have some bigger watches, but I would never wear this one. It does look too big, I was actually surprised to find it's not 20mm thick


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Elmero said:


> Agreed. I have some bigger watches, but I would never wear this one. It does look too big, I was actually surprised to find it's not 20mm thick


It must be tricky to achieve that and still maintain structural integrity of concrete.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

I thought I'd link to a post just spotted on the Vivid Dial thread, as the watch designer Alain Silberstein refers to himself as an 'Architecte Horloger'. Fair enough, that's not quite a conventional architect, but since we often talk about 'building watches', it's another nod between the two domains.









Post your vividly colored watches!







www.watchuseek.com


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

So, I quite like the drz04 Mondial from Direnzo and have been following the brand for a little while now. A new version has just been announced. That said, I associated the brand with racing, even if that's accurate it is actually quite subtly done, but I'm not entirely sure this is as crucial to the brand as well-considered and detail driven watch design in itself is. What I didn't know is that Sergio Di Renzo himself was a practising architect before starting the brand. With that it actually becomes a prime example of what I was after with this thread. The microbrand store writes the following:

"Sergio Godoy Di Renzo is the creative genius behind the Direnzo Watches brand. When Sergio moved to Geneva, Switzerland in 2014, he was working as an architect, and ended up taking a watch design course for fun. He hasn't looked back since."


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## Elmero (Mar 24, 2017)

Benjamin NV said:


> So, I quite like the drz04 Mondial from Direnzo and have been following the brand for a little while now. A new version has just been announced. That said, I associated the brand with racing, even if that's accurate it is actually quite subtly done, but I'm not entirely sure this is as crucial to the brand as well-considered and detail driven watch design in itself is. What I didn't know is that Sergio Di Renzo himself was a practising architect before starting the brand. With that it actually becomes a prime example of what I was after with this thread. The microbrand store writes the following:
> 
> "Sergio Godoy Di Renzo is the creative genius behind the Direnzo Watches brand. When Sergio moved to Geneva, Switzerland in 2014, he was working as an architect, and ended up taking a watch design course for fun. He hasn't looked back since."


Then I guess this one fits right in here, founder being an architect and all: Holthinrichs Watches - A New Craft in Watchmaking


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Elmero said:


> Then I guess this one fits right in here, founder being an architect and all: Holthinrichs Watches - A New Craft in Watchmaking


I hadn't realised that he was an architect before too. Figures, in Delft. I use their Delft Blue as my profile pic. A nod to my home country!


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Thanks to a recent piece on Fratello I heard about Dumoreau watches. A new upcoming release (preorder stage for 975USD... Tempting, I'd say) the DM02 is designed by Carlo Aiello. Already a celebrated and award winning designer, but apparently from an architecture background. I'm not sure of his actual day job (I presume design-related, but not which genre), but this watch have many of the elements I've started to recognise I much appreciate, in particular a dial with a sector or bullseye type ring. I have to agree with Fratello that there is something tranquil yet assertive about the concentricity of this design and the flowing rounded sides of the case. It's excellently sized as well. I'm personally less sure about the hand winding movement, although I understand it suits the genre. I feel like I can see the care that has gone into the crafting of each element from the pictures. I currently can't justify spending over 1000USD landed and imported on a watch I certainly don't need, but I think it could make s wonderful addition to my collection, where sectioned concentric elements have become s bit of a theme, I recognise. The proportions of the DM02 yet feel different and entirely their own, with more than a gentle art deco nod. I nay even prefer the salmon dial among these options, and that's rare for me. Another great example of an architect designed watch.


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

While naturally a fashion watch brand... I didn't even know Fossil produces watches with automatic movement, but I saw this being sold locally, referred to as the Fossil Arkitekt?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Benjamin NV said:


> While naturally a fashion watch brand... I didn't even know Fossil produces watches with automatic movement, but I saw this being sold locally, referred to as the Fossil Arkitekt?
> View attachment 17150664


If I'm not mistaken, only the second hand subdial is driven by the self-winding movement. The rest of it is on a quartz movement.

Any idea why they called this one Arkitekt?


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## Benjamin NV (12 mo ago)

Chascomm said:


> If I'm not mistaken, only the second hand subdial is driven by the self-winding movement. The rest of it is on a quartz movement.
> 
> Any idea why they called this one Arkitekt?


No, I know nothing about it. Merely happened to see it come by in s second hand add and was surprised at what I saw!


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