# What am I doing wrong? I want a Philippe Dufour watch!



## CUSO

This was a good year for my entrance into collecting. I bought my wife a Patek Philippe 4506, and I just acquired a Panerai 351. I now desire a Philippe Dufour. I have e-mail Mr. Dufour's shop several times explaining I really loved the Simplicity and would love to purchase something similar if they will be making it, or if not, what will he be producing. I do understand the price range. The e-mail came back from Mrs. Dufour thanking me for the inquery, but Simplicity is not available anymore. I sent 3 more requesting the models available, I heard nothing back, I sent another stating I would be happy to wire a healthy deposit to their account, still nothing. What can I do? I called the shop 2 times and did not get an answer. Please tell me what my next step should be. I am still 50/50 weather I will be keeping the watch or giving it as a gift to my father in law who as a blue collar union man his whole life nearing retirement, has lusted at Philippe Dufours watches for the past 15 years, and thought he would never have one. Please help me. Suggestions? I am not BS'ing here. Thanks


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## horologyfan

seems like your only option is to buy second hand. if you were told he's not making any more then he's not making any more. harassing them won't help. the demand for dufour's watches far outweigh the supply, so the reality is he probably has a waiting list all the way to retirement if he does decide to make them again. and if he was working on a new model and wanted to sell you one you'd know about it.


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## pplater

*Don't we all!...*

As you probably know, the Simplicity is limited to 200 pieces. They pre-sold within a very short time of being released and people have been waiting up to 5 years (so far) for delivery. Because the numbers are non-sequential it is not possible to be certain how many have been completed, but presumably until 'the end is in sight' no new model will be announced. Having said that - maybe this could be the year! Preference will probably then go to previous customers, with a large number allocated to the Japanese market which was so supportive of M. Dufour originally.

Very occasionally you may see one on the secondary market. You have a much better chance, though, finding a Voutilainen or even a Roger Smith 'pre-loved'.

If you find one, keep it. Give your father in law a clock - let's face it, what did he ever give you???? 

Good luck in the hunt.

Cheers,
pplater.


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## Packleader

CUSO said:


> Suggestions? I am not BS'ing here. Thanks


I knew that you were serious as soon as you mentioned the Patek Philippe that you bought your wife.

I agree with the suggestion to acquire the watch from a fellow collector. Undoubtedly, a watch like the Simplicity will have been lovingly cared for and may be found in mint or near-mint condition.

I realize that time may be of the essence becuase of the impending retirement of your father-in-law, but the time and effort that you put into the hunt will make it all the more gratifying when you do capture your grail.

Best wishes,
Packleader


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## ndabunka

Good to see that money can't "buy anything". Are your CERTAIN that a blue collar father-in-law would actually WANT it? Maybe he would rather have a hunting rifle. I agree with others. You have already gotten your reply. Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean that the reply is any less valid nor that you will be able to "influence" his production with any type volume of $$$s.


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## joyee

This is strongly recommended to you that you should to buy the second hand. This will be better for you as compare to any other idea.
Thanks man


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## mleok

Honestly, going from a Patek 4506 and a Panerai 351 to a Philippe Dufour Simplicity is just a huge leap in terms of price, but far more importantly, horological sophistication. An independent watchmaker like Philippe Dufour is in a position to choose his buyers, to ensure that watches are sold only to established collectors with truly significant collections. You have been repeatedly, and politely rebuffed from your efforts to purchase it directly from him, and I don't think pressing the issue is going to change anything.


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## blakey

I dont think its worth reviving a thread over a year old.

But we love that dont we~hahaha.


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## Famousname

I remain baffled at this aversion to bumping old threads simply because it's, well, _old_. From this old bumped thread I just learned abut and research Philippe Dufour watches. Didn't know a thing about them. Thanks, year old bumper!


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## JP Chestnut

Famousname said:


> I remain baffled at this aversion to bumping old threads simply because it's, well, _old_. From this old bumped thread I just learned abut and research Philippe Dufour watches. Didn't know a thing about them. Thanks, year old bumper!


I'd rather read long deep threads, which are contributed to over years, than read 50 threads with three posts each. It makes searching much better.


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## NH102.22

mleok said:


> An independent watchmaker like Philippe Dufour is in a position to choose his buyers, to ensure that watches are sold only to established collectors with truly significant collections


Pfft


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## sookoon

I find it hilarious that a 'blue-collar union man' would lust after any symbol of wealth, when the principle of being in a union is anathema to anything remotely related to achievement, wealth, self-starting, independence, and reward for a job well done. Sorry, I have to stop typing now; my union boss is telling me I have to take my break, otherwise, my hard work will make everyone else look bad.


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## R.Palace

sookoon said:


> I find it hilarious that a 'blue-collar union man' would lust after any symbol of wealth, when the principle of being in a union is anathema to anything remotely related to achievement, wealth, self-starting, independence, and reward for a job well done. Sorry, I have to stop typing now; my union boss is telling me I have to take my break, otherwise, my hard work will make everyone else look bad.


Dude...this thread is THREE YEARS OLD!


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## Drop of a Hat

sookoon said:


> I find it hilarious that a 'blue-collar union man' would lust after any symbol of wealth, when the principle of being in a union is anathema to anything remotely related to achievement, wealth, self-starting, independence, and reward for a job well done. Sorry, I have to stop typing now; my union boss is telling me I have to take my break, otherwise, my hard work will make everyone else look bad.


:eyeroll:

You necro posted for this?

"He's just a witness"


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## Crunchy

Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


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## hanzo

Crunchy said:


> Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


The long waiting list and exorbitant price :-d


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## AbuKalb93

Crunchy said:


> Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


Whereas FPJ and many other great watchmakers employ other watchmakers to bring their designs and creations to life...Dufour does absolutely everything on his own. Unlike Vianney Halter, who is also fantastic, Dufour is more into simple designs and you really see the soul and tradition of swiss watchmaking for what its for. That and the fact that he only makes 15 pieces a year. As far as i know, his pieces are relatively very affordable compared to others but its the exclusivity and waiting list that makes it a challenge to obtain. I love independent watchmakers because with every piece they make, they put a piece of their passion into it.


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## Dancing Fire

Crunchy said:


> Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


He is a one man show.


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## Pyroxene

Crunchy said:


> Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


A lot of reviews rave about the exquisite finishing of Dufour watches, painstakingly done by hand. Particular emphasis is paid to the well-bevelled internal angles.

Honestly though, I have seen pieces from ALS, Patek and other brands where the finishing is as good, or better than a Dufour. Not sure whether this is a "emperor has no clothes" type of situation, or if I'm just being a noob here.


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## mleok

Pyroxene said:


> A lot of reviews rave about the exquisite finishing of Dufour watches, painstakingly done by hand. Particular emphasis is paid to the well-bevelled internal angles.
> 
> Honestly though, I have seen pieces from ALS, Patek and other brands where the finishing is as good, or better than a Dufour. Not sure whether this is a "emperor has no clothes" type of situation, or if I'm just being a noob here.


Have you spent an extensive amount of time looking at movements and dials from these brands carefully under a loupe, and which pieces specifically are you comparing here?


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## Pyroxene

mleok said:


> Have you spent an extensive amount of time looking at movements and dials from these brands carefully under a loupe, and which pieces specifically are you comparing here?


Unfortunately I do not have the luxury of having examined said watches under a loupe. All my impressions are formed through pictures on watch review sites.

As for the watches I am drawing a comparison with, there are quite a few, but the Lange Datograph and any of the new skeleton watches recently released by VC come most readily to mind.


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## mleok

Pyroxene said:


> Unfortunately I do not have the luxury of having examined said watches under a loupe. All my impressions are formed through pictures on watch review sites.
> 
> As for the watches I am drawing a comparison with, there are quite a few, but the Lange Datograph and any of the new skeleton watches recently released by VC come most readily to mind.


These are ALS and VC's higher end pieces, and the prices are much higher than their entry level timepieces, and easily comparable to Dufour level prices. I think what makes Dufour unusual is that this level of care is lavished on a simple three-hand timepiece. I look at my Patek 215 PS (in my Calatrava 5119) under a loupe and the macro shots of a Dufour Simplicity I see on the web, and the differences in quality are quite apparent.

There is also a certain romanticism to having a simple timepiece executed with the greatest level of care, detail, and old world craftsmanship and techniques by the hands of a legendary watchmaker, and when it comes to haute gamme timepieces, that level of exclusivity is worth something. Even the gears are made with hand powered and manual tools as opposed to being pressed out of blanks or on a CNC machine. It is truly the distinction between a hand made and a hand finished timepiece.


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## Shane94116

This thread makes me laugh. This is the third time I've come across it in the past year and each time I wonder the same thing... OP were you able to get a Dufour after all this time?


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## JP Chestnut

mleok said:


> Have you spent an extensive amount of time looking at movements and dials from these brands carefully under a loupe, and which pieces specifically are you comparing here?


Not only that, but has he looked at the underside of the parts which are not view-able when the watch is complete? It's one thing to make a watch that's nice looking when viewed through the caseback. It's another to make a watch where every single piece of the movement is finished on every surface. That's not to say that ALS, PP, or Dufour do or don't provide this level of finishing, but saying "they all look the same through the back" isn't a valid way to compare finishing.


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## mleok

JP Chestnut said:


> Not only that, but has he looked at the underside of the parts which are not view-able when the watch is complete? It's one thing to make a watch that's nice looking when viewed through the caseback. It's another to make a watch where every single piece of the movement is finished on every surface. That's not to say that ALS, PP, or Dufour do or don't provide this level of finishing, but saying "they all look the same through the back" isn't a valid way to compare finishing.


Indeed. Look at the inside of the gear teeth, not just the top of the gears and bridges.


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## AbuKalb93

I know for certain that ALS finishes both sides of their movement parts equally. You cannot tell the difference between front and back (or so they say). Then again...they are pure movement makers and thats all they do. I know FPJ finishes both sides of plate but not sure about the gears and same applies to patek.


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## mleok

AbuKalb93 said:


> I know for certain that ALS finishes both sides of their movement parts equally. You cannot tell the difference between front and back (or so they say). Then again...they are pure movement makers and thats all they do. I know FPJ finishes both sides of plate but not sure about the gears and same applies to patek.


Glashutte Original is the only high-end watch brand that is purported to finish the components in their entry-level watches asymmetrically depending on whether it is caseback side or dial side.


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## AbuKalb93

mleok said:


> Glashutte Original is the only high-end watch brand that is purported to finish the components in their entry-level watches asymmetrically depending on whether it is caseback side or dial side.


I guess I need one of those too


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## iim7v7im7

Walt Odets is a straight shooter...

A Comparison of the Keyless Works in a Patek and a Lange - TimeZone



AbuKalb93 said:


> I know for certain that ALS finishes both sides of their movement parts equally. You cannot tell the difference between front and back (or so they say). Then again...they are pure movement makers and thats all they do. I know FPJ finishes both sides of plate but not sure about the gears and same applies to patek.


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## heuerolexomega

iim7v7im7 said:


> Walt Odets is a straight shooter...
> 
> A Comparison of the Keyless Works in a Patek and a Lange - TimeZone


Interesting article, in a nutshell says that the finesse on the movement parts is better on Patek and that the quality of the cases are better in Lange. Which is probably true but people need to understand that we are talking of degrees (a little better) better one than the other, and is not a dramatic difference.


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## iim7v7im7

_"In general, the Lange is an extremely well-made and well-finished watch. Lange cases are of uniformly excellent construction and quality and, in my opinion, better than most of Patek's cases. While the top plate of the Lange is not better crafted than those of Pateks, it is certainly more elaborately and expensively made. The color and sheen of the nickel silver plates and bridges (which is, however, a less expensive construction than the rhodium-plated brass used in Pateks); the use of screwed jewel chatons; engraving of the balance cock; the use of decorative screws on the balance wheel and a swan's neck spring for the regulator; and perfect finishing of the top plate and most visible components all provide a feel of quality and substance, and have gained Lange a wide following. The bottom plate and keyless works, however, depart to some extent from the standard of craft exhibited in the top plate and most other parts of the watch and offer an interesting, if fairly subtle, contrast. In the instance of the watch illustrated, a functional problem also resulted. Although I am not aware of another instance of this problem, the construction of the keyless works should probably be improved."_​


heuerolexomega said:


> Interesting article, in a nutshell says that the finesse on the movement parts is better on Patek and that the quality of the cases are better in Lange. Which is probably true but people need to understand that we are talking of degrees (a little better) better one than the other, and is not a dramatic difference.


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## lmcgbaj

mleok said:


> Glashutte Original is the only high-end watch brand that is purported to finish the components in their entry-level watches asymmetrically depending on whether it is caseback side or dial side.


My understanding was that GO do not decorate or extensively decorate the dial side of the movement and that was one of the arguments as to why they are a class below ALS.


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## heuerolexomega

iim7v7im7 said:


> _"In general, the Lange is an extremely well-made and well-finished watch. Lange cases are of uniformly excellent construction and quality and, in my opinion, better than most of Patek's cases. While the top plate of the Lange is not better crafted than those of Pateks, it is certainly more elaborately and expensively made. The color and sheen of the nickel silver plates and bridges (which is, however, a less expensive construction than the rhodium-plated brass used in Pateks); the use of screwed jewel chatons; engraving of the balance cock; the use of decorative screws on the balance wheel and a swan's neck spring for the regulator; and perfect finishing of the top plate and most visible components all provide a feel of quality and substance, and have gained Lange a wide following. The bottom plate and keyless works, however, depart to some extent from the standard of craft exhibited in the top plate and most other parts of the watch and offer an interesting, if fairly subtle, contrast. In the instance of the watch illustrated, a functional problem also resulted. Although I am not aware of another instance of this problem, the construction of the keyless works should probably be improved."_​


Agree but is also fair to say that Patek should probably improve the quality of the cases. Meaning, it seems that Lange is smarter in putting all the hard work in what you can see, and at the end watches are jewelry.


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## Georgef

What about getting another exclusive tach from:

- Home » Voutilainen - Horlogerie d'Art
- Roger W Smith Daniels Millennium watch achieves world record price
- Home | Grönefeld

Or more prolific:

- Montres Journe SA - Invenit et Fecit - Genève, Suisse - Watches - Geneva Switzerland - fp????

Or https://www.franckmuller.com


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## sookoon

Crunchy said:


> Can someone explain, what is the appeal of a Dufour?


Dual balance wheel got my attention, but not enough to lust...


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## Pisquare

mleok said:


> Glashutte Original is the only high-end watch brand that is purported to finish the components in their entry-level watches asymmetrically depending on whether it is caseback side or dial side.


Sorry, I am a novice, considering an entry level ALS. Is the asymmetric finish a good thing? Thanks.


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## G.Chris

Isn't it annoying when people ask for help, get it, and then never update?


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## PJ S

^
Almost as much as resurrecting ages old threads for no good reason.


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## Famousname

^^^POW! Right in the Kisser!


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## wis_dad

PJ S said:


> ^
> Almost as much as resurrecting ages old threads for no good reason.


Well it's made me spend an hour researching and learning about a man/brand than I've only heard of maybe once or twice and only now taken the time to discover more about him/it.

Edit: I too would've like to have known if a Dufour was ever sourced in way way or another.


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## delraywatch

If unable to obtain new, I would suggest finding it preowned. 

-John


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## gangrel

delraywatch said:


> If unable to obtain new, I would suggest finding it preowned.


A Simplicity???

Sure. Go for it.

AFAIK, 3 came up for auction last year. One was listed for sale by a British watch dealer. So it does happen.

But it's not something you'll see on Chrono24.


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