# Is the Vacheron Constantin Overseas a Good Buy?



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

I've been looking at the big 3 sports watches lately, and have been really intrigued by the new VC Overseas, specifically the 5500v Chronograph (in 42.5mm trim). As compared to the Royal Oak and Nautilus, on superficial marks alone, I prefer the Overseas. It's the cheapest and easiest to obtain, which is an obvious plus. The interchangeable straps are an awesome benefit over the others, and I think it has the most pleasant / classic design of the 3, and even superior finishing to the AP, while still being immediately distinguishable from other sports watches (in fact, even more so, considering the quantity of Genta-esque clones these days). I think the Overseas has a classic style, a beautiful movement that's well-presented, and is a highly functional watch that will dress up or down really well.

My concern is with VC as a brand, however, and is multi-faceted. They are the oldest continuously operated watch brand, yes, and have crafted all of the grand complications, but that's sort of the "old" Vacheron. In recent years, VC has obviously taken a back seat to AP and PP. They've changed hands several times over the last 80 years, and pretty obviously lost their way for a while, focusing on bling over high horology (even before the quartz crisis). I think all that has stained the name a bit (at least from my perception and limited knowledge?) They seem to be back on track now, but it makes you wonder if VC+Richemont isn't just an attempt at a VW+Bugatti move? That's concerning to me. I want to buy watches made by people with a passion for the craft of watches and the company's vision... not for the craft of a brand. Being that VC isn't family-owned or operated anymore, how can its original vision persist? That's where I'm stuck, and needing advice.

Over the last 3-6 months, like-new-condition Overseas prices have increased by about 50% on the used market (at least for blue dial variants). The natural assumption is that the brand and its offerings are "catching on" with the consumers and/or the cognoscenti. My fear is moving on this assumption may be a folly. I know at least some of the ostensible demand spike is due to covid- and reorg-related supply-chain issues, some is residual demand carried over from the Nautilus, Royal Oak, and Daytona bubbles, and still more seems to be a result of an apparent social media / influencer push from Richemont (they and a few others are *all over* the place lately, which is concerning in and of itself... but that's for another post).

I guess I wanted to get some insight into what other people think? I love the new Overseas on the surface, but I have concerns with what lies underneath. I think Richemont is a definitively "better" house than the other big conglomerates, and seems to offer some independence to its brands, but even so, it appears that VC has until very recently been deep in bed with at least JLC, which is concerning to me. Obviously, the safe bet for pedigree and legacy would be to stick with the independents, but I don't like the metal AP, PP, and Rolex are made of (unobtanium), and it doesn't seem easy to find an entirely in-house high-horology independent watchmaker with sub-six-figure offerings anymore (even FP Journe and ALS have sold out... sheesh.)

So what does everyone think? Is VC going to retake its place among the big 3 with head held high, or is this a dead-cat bounce, and they're going to plummet into the depths of blingy fashion watches again?

Should I just give up and go all-in on Grand Seiko?


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

smoseley said:


> I've been looking at the big 3 sports watches lately, and have been really intrigued by the new VC Overseas, specifically the 5500v Chronograph (in 42.5mm trim). As compared to the Royal Oak and Nautilus, on superficial marks alone, I prefer the Overseas. It's the cheapest and easiest to obtain, which is an obvious plus. The interchangeable straps are an awesome benefit over the others, and I think it has the most pleasant / classic design of the 3, and even superior finishing to the AP, while still being immediately distinguishable from other sports watches (in fact, even more so, considering the quantity of Genta-esque clones these days). I think the Overseas has a classic style, a beautiful movement that's well-presented, and is a highly functional watch that will dress up or down really well.
> 
> My concern is with VC as a brand, however, and is multi-faceted. They are the oldest continuously operated watch brand, yes, and have crafted all of the grand complications, but that's sort of the "old" Vacheron. In recent years, VC has obviously taken a back seat to AP and PP. They've changed hands several times over the last 80 years, and pretty obviously lost their way for a while, focusing on bling over high horology (even before the quartz crisis). I think all that has stained the name a bit. They're back on track now, but it makes you wonder if VC+Richemont isn't just an attempt at a VW+Bugatti move? That's concerning to me. I want to buy watches made by people with a passion for the craft of watches and the company's vision... not for the craft of a brand. Being that VC isn't family-owned or operated anymore, how can its original vision persist? That's where I'm stuck.
> 
> ...


The last part about VC or GS has me scratching my head. GS makes a nice watch, but it does not really have a place in a conversation about VC/PP/AP/etc...

You should be able to get a nice GS for much less than even the most affordable Overseas.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> The last part about VC or GS has me scratching my head. GS makes a nice watch, but it does not really have a place in a conversation about VC/PP/AP/etc...
> 
> You should be able to get a nice GS for much less than even the most affordable Overseas.


Oh, I meant that as a half-joke, since they're one of the few independent brands doing great things for reasonable prices. Also, I just bought my first GS last week, and so I'm all about them these days.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

smoseley said:


> Oh, I meant that as a half-joke, since they're one of the few independent brands doing great things for reasonable prices. Also, I just bought my first GS last week, and so I'm all about them these days.


Ah, I see. Being part of the Seiko group, I would not consider them independent, just an Asian based conglomerate instead of a European one.

As a GS owner, I hold them in high regard. You just lost me when ending a VC post with GS lol.

I try to avoid speculation on the level you are asking about (future trajectory of VC, place vs other high end brands, etc...). Too much to unfold. The Overseas is a great looking, modern watch by a historic and respected brand. If you like it, buy it. If your concern is long term value, stick to the stock market


----------



## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

IMHO, they are a fantastic brand with great heritage. The VC Oeverseas is on my short list as well. Compared to the others you listed, I would not hesitate to buy one given the right deal.

Good luck either way, as all of those you listed would make a great addition to anyone's collection.


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

smoseley said:


> VC has obviously taken a back seat to AP and PP.


Based on what?


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

dbostedo said:


> Based on what?


Market demand.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> I try to avoid speculation on the level you are asking about (future trajectory of VC, place vs other high end brands, etc...). Too much to unfold. The Overseas is a great looking, modern watch by a historic and respected brand. If you like it, buy it. If your concern is long term value, stick to the stock market


Thanks... good advice... but it's less about the value, and more concerns about misdirection of the brand and more specifically the Overseas model (which was powered by a JLC movement until just 5 years ago). I think it's safe to say a Royal Oak, for example, even with its flaws (my subjective opinion), is a pillar of the modern-day watchmaking industry, and no collection would be tarnished by the addition of one. The Nautilus has similar pedigree. I'm just not sure that the Overseas will settle in on the same level, and so I'm not sure if it's "safe" as an addition... I'd hate to dump it in 5 years because it's gone out of fashion. Wanted to see what other people think.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Being part of the Seiko group, I would not consider them independent, just an Asian based conglomerate instead of a European one.


Funny... I see Seiko / Grand Seiko more like Rolex / Tudor. One brand was born from the other, and they're very closely tied in terms of design and technology. To me, a "conglomerate" is a group of disparate brands each with their own independent histories brought together under one corporate shell.


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

smoseley said:


> I'm just not sure that the Overseas will settle in on the same level, and so I'm not sure if it's "safe" as an addition... I'd hate to dump it in 5 years because it's gone out of fashion.


I don't think I can relate to that. There's no in or out of fashion that I would care about with respect to these watches.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

dbostedo said:


> I don't think I can relate to that. There's no in or out of fashion that I would care about with respect to these watches.


What about the v1 and v2 Overseas models with JLC movements and clunky designs? A v1 Overseas goes for around $10k these days, while a v1 Royal Oak is $100k. The market is obviously expressing issues with it.


----------



## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

smoseley said:


> I've been looking at the big 3 sports watches lately, and have been really intrigued by the new VC Overseas, specifically the 5500v Chronograph (in 42.5mm trim). As compared to the Royal Oak and Nautilus, on superficial marks alone, I prefer the Overseas. It's the cheapest and easiest to obtain, which is an obvious plus. The interchangeable straps are an awesome benefit over the others, and I think it has the most pleasant / classic design of the 3, and even superior finishing to the AP, while still being immediately distinguishable from other sports watches (in fact, even more so, considering the quantity of Genta-esque clones these days). I think the Overseas has a classic style, a beautiful movement that's well-presented, and is a highly functional watch that will dress up or down really well.
> 
> My concern is with VC as a brand, however, and is multi-faceted. They are the oldest continuously operated watch brand, yes, and have crafted all of the grand complications, but that's sort of the "old" Vacheron. In recent years, VC has obviously taken a back seat to AP and PP. They've changed hands several times over the last 80 years, and pretty obviously lost their way for a while, focusing on bling over high horology (even before the quartz crisis). I think all that has stained the name a bit. They're back on track now, but it makes you wonder if VC+Richemont isn't just an attempt at a VW+Bugatti move? That's concerning to me. I want to buy watches made by people with a passion for the craft of watches and the company's vision... not for the craft of a brand. Being that VC isn't family-owned or operated anymore, how can its original vision persist? That's where I'm stuck.
> 
> ...


If you're looking for an investment, don't buy watches. If you like the watch, buy it. I really don't understand the question.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

teckel12 said:


> If you're looking for an investment, don't buy watches. If you like the watch, buy it. I really don't understand the question.


Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.

Where's the rule that says I'm not allowed to enjoy a watch while also maintaining a healthy concern that I'm not burning my money in the process?


----------



## adk225 (Feb 29, 2020)

Is the Vacheron Constantin Overseas a Good Buy? Absolutely yes.
Is it going to increase in demand and value, and/or go out of style (whatever that means) in the next 5 years? 










smoseley said:


> *Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.*
> Where's the rule that says I'm not allowed to enjoy a watch while also maintaining a healthy concern that I'm not burning my money in the process?


Well there's your answer. Stick to an APRO or a Nautilus, or most any Rolex.

Also, as an owner of a few 5 figure watches, none of them were an investment for me. Got them because I love them, not because I hope they will appreciate in value. There's a stock market and other (actual) investments for that.


----------



## ManhattanMD (Dec 26, 2020)

smoseley said:


> Funny... I see Seiko / Grand Seiko more like Rolex / Tudor. One brand was born from the other, and they're very closely tied in terms of design and technology. To me, a "conglomerate" is a group of disparate brands each with their own independent histories brought together under one corporate shell.


I don't really think Rolex and Seiko are analogous. Seiko Corp. makes super high-end watches with their Credor line that one could argue rivals stuff from VC or AP. You have Grand Seiko, which would be in the Rolex/Omega/Zenith price bracket. Then, Seiko watches run the gamut in terms of quality and price. Some Seikos rival Tudor in price and build quality while others are meant to compete with Bulova or Tissot. Orient is also a brand owned by Seiko that makes watches in the affordable bracket. All this to say, Seiko has more in common with Swatch group than with Rolex, and that is not a bad thing for them.


----------



## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

The 4500v is offering more checkboxes than it's competitors. It's a great overall package. 

Geneva seal (that you can see) 
Antimagnetism 
Quick change strap system with extra straps
Butterfly bracelet with extension system 
An updated design that has the brand dna all over it (literally) as opposed to shoehorning new style into an old shoe. 

Beyond that, it's clear VC is trying to offer more with the 4500v while PP and AP are happy to coast on a popular design. 

As far as being in bed with JLC, that wasn't a bad thing until about 5 minutes ago. JLC is responsible for supplying calibers for some of the highest-regarded houses.


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

smoseley said:


> What about the v1 and v2 Overseas models with JLC movements and clunky designs?


You may think they're clunky, but others love them and wear them. (And the JLCs were not officially "Overseas" models I don't think. That name started with one of the newer ones.) Personally, I don't like the v1 much, but I wouldn't have bought it when it was new either I don't think. The v2 is still awesome, as is the current gen.


----------



## kritameth (Oct 11, 2015)

IMO it will at least hold its value. For me, without getting into the whole investment perspective - which, technically speaking, it is - if I like a watch that's more than good enough for me. That said, I do prefer the Nautilus and RO over the Overseas, but only just, and also not taking into account availability.


----------



## sieglo (Nov 3, 2019)

smoseley said:


> Thanks... good advice... but it's less about the value, and more concerns about misdirection of the brand and more specifically the Overseas model (which was powered by a JLC movement until just 5 years ago). I think it's safe to say a Royal Oak, for example, even with its flaws (my subjective opinion), is a pillar of the modern-day watchmaking industry, and no collection would be tarnished by the addition of one. The Nautilus has similar pedigree. I'm just not sure that the Overseas will settle in on the same level, and so I'm not sure if it's "safe" as an addition... I'd hate to dump it in 5 years because it's gone out of fashion. Wanted to see what other people think.


The idea that the brand was "misdirected" because it used one of the best chronograph movements in high horology, the Frédéric Piguet 1185, which also was used in the Royal oak, is really a bit much.


----------



## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

smoseley said:


> Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.
> 
> Where's the rule that says I'm not allowed to enjoy a watch while also maintaining a healthy concern that I'm not burning my money in the process?


I get that. If you're just trying to make sure you get a good deal, I'd suggest first taking your time. Maybe find a few models you love. Then, wait for one to go up for sale (see watchrecon.com). Don't make a quick decision, let fate decide. But also don't beat yourself up if it depreciates in value. Most watches do. That's what investments are for, and watches shouldn't be considered investments. Can it happen, sure, but it doesn't mean you made a bad decision if it doesn't.

In the end, just be thankful for the watch, and don't worry about what someone else thinks it's worth.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

adk225 said:


> Also, as an owner of a few 5 figure watches, none of them were an investment for me. Got them because I love them, not because I hope they will appreciate in value. There's a stock market and other (actual) investments for that.


I think you may misunderstand. The implied intrinsic cultural value of any art yields the promise of an investment on some level. There's definitely a contingent who believe that admitting this fact somehow dirties any appreciation for the art. That's just pretentious in my opinion, and a little hypocritical when considering most of the people expressing those opinions in the watch world have had collections long enough to see a massive ROI already.

No one would pay $1B for a Picasso I'd they thought it might go to $0. The same can be said for watches to a lesser degree. We want to own and appreciate the art, but we also want the art to appreciate for us, or at least maintain most of its value.

Whatever you believe, or however you choose to spend your money, I'm allowed to be concerned about the future value of my purchases without any insinuation that I'm approaching watch-collecting as a retirement plan. Fair?


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

teckel12 said:


> I get that. If you're just trying to make sure you get a good deal, I'd suggest first taking your time. Maybe find a few models you love. Then, wait for one to go up for sale (see watchrecon.com). Don't make a quick decision, let fate decide. But also don't beat yourself up if it depreciates in value. Most watches do. That's what investments are for, and watches shouldn't be considered investments. Can it happen, sure, but it doesn't mean you made a bad decision if it doesn't.
> 
> In the end, just be thankful for the watch, and don't worry about what someone else thinks it's worth.


I get all of this, and I'm not looking at it as an investment. I just want to buy smart. I bought a white gold Daytona a long time ago because I loved the watch, and watched it depreciate slowly for years, but never got upset over it. I just enjoyed it for what it was. Want to guess if I'm happier with the purchase now, though, after it's nearly doubled in value in recent years?


----------



## Pongster (Jan 7, 2017)

smoseley said:


> Funny... I see Seiko / Grand Seiko more like Rolex / Tudor. One brand was born from the other, and they're very closely tied in terms of design and technology. To me, a "conglomerate" is a group of disparate brands each with their own independent histories brought together under one corporate shell.


Seiko is indeed a conglomerate (various companies under the same common ownership and/or affiliated with each other). Aside from being vertically integrated as well as creating other brands (Alba, Lorus, Pulsar and Credor, among others), it also bought Orient.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

sieglo said:


> The idea that the brand was "misdirected" because it used one of the best chronograph movements in high horology, the Frédéric Piguet 1185, which also was used in the Royal oak, is really a bit much.


I do appreciate this feedback, and I don't want you to take what I said the wrong way... you obviously know a lot more about the history of the big 3 than I do. I expressed my concerns about VC based on my limited knowledge of their history, hoping that I would get feedback to either confirm or assuage my fears. Sounds like you're in the camp of "it's a non-issue"?


----------



## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

smoseley said:


> I do appreciate this feedback, and I don't want you to take what I said the wrong way... you obviously know a lot more about the history of the big 3 than I do. I expressed my concerns about VC based on my limited knowledge of their history, hoping that I would get feedback to either confirm or assuage my fears. Sounds like you're in the camp of "it's a non-issue"?


I would in no way consider VC any less than PP or AP. Example:


----------



## adk225 (Feb 29, 2020)

smoseley said:


> I think you may misunderstand. The implied intrinsic cultural value of any art yields the promise of an investment on some level. There's definitely a contingent who believe that admitting this fact somehow dirties any appreciation for the art. That's just pretentious in my opinion, and a little hypocritical when considering most of the people expressing those opinions in the watch world have had collections long enough to see a massive ROI already.
> 
> No one would pay $1B for a Picasso I'd they thought it might go to $0. The same can be said for watches to a lesser degree. We want to own and appreciate the art, but we also want the art to appreciate for us, or at least maintain most of its value.
> 
> Whatever you believe, or however you choose to spend your money, I'm allowed to be concerned about the future value of my purchases without any insinuation that I'm approaching watch-collecting as a retirement plan. Fair?


Fair enough. In case it wasn't clear, I was replying to your comment "*Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone". *I think we're just interpreting the term _investment_ differently. What you're talking about sounds more like value retention to me.


----------



## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

smoseley said:


> I do appreciate this feedback, and I don't want you to take what I said the wrong way... you obviously know a lot more about the history of the big 3 than I do. I expressed my concerns about VC based on my limited knowledge of their history, hoping that I would get feedback to either confirm or assuage my fears. Sounds like you're in the camp of "it's a non-issue"?


Two of the three used JLC or JLC-commission movements for a long time and it wasn't to cut corners. It was because they made the best movements you could buy.


----------



## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

adk225 said:


> Fair enough. In case it wasn't clear, I was replying to your comment "*Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone". *I think we're just interpreting the term _investment_ differently. What you're talking about sounds more like value retention to me.


I think "value retention" can many times be misinterpreted as "investment". It's one of the reasons I have a hard time spending let's say $2k on a micro brand watch. I may love the watch, but I could also only get $50 for it in 10 years. I fully know it's *not* going to make me money, but it does enter my thoughts that maybe I'm just throwing money away.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

teckel12 said:


> I would in no way consider VC any less than PP or AP. Example:
> 
> View attachment 15819269


I totally get that, and 100% agree that VC today is approximately in-line with AP, and near PP. My concern was mostly about the previous couple decades of this sort of thing...









Again, just feeling out other people's opinions. If the consensus is "not an issue", I can accept that.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

You could always subscribe to @ValueYourWatch.com to keep track of your VC purchase


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

longtimelurker said:


> Two of the three used JLC or JLC-commission movements for a long time and it wasn't to cut corners. It was because they made the best movements you could buy.


Yeah, I'm aware of this. but VC only went in-house on the Overseas about 5 years ago, right? Didn't PP and AP go fully back in-house decades ago?


----------



## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

Yes, VC was the last to put their sports watch on the in-house list. 
It is my opinion that they were the last because they felt the need to make a movement that was actually superior to the JLC-supplied one. I have yet to see anyone state that the early PP and AP sports watch movements were better than the JLC they replaced. 
Recently, of course they've all gone their own ways and invested in developing movements with specific attributes. 
I still doubt that a JLC - designed movement with big 3 finishing wouldn't be as good or better than what they have put out now.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

adk225 said:


> Is it going to... go out of style (whatever that means) in the next 5 years?


Addressing this point... consider the Overseas/222 was redesigned 3 times in 40ish years - about a decade per version. When I say I'm concerned it'll "go out of fashion in 5 years", I mean that I fear VC will bring another major redesign to the 5 year-old current design in < 5 years, which will yield obsolescence of the current design.


----------



## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

smoseley said:


> Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.
> 
> Where's the rule that says I'm not allowed to enjoy a watch while also maintaining a healthy concern that I'm not burning my money in the process?


Because it's dumb to expect returns on man trinkets. Watch buying is burning money unless you are very lucky. That the definition of not an investment.


----------



## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

But if you want an integrated bracelet indie that isn't insanely priced or play AD games, there are a half dozen great indie options from Czapek, Moser, Urban Jurgensen, etc.


----------



## greedy (Dec 19, 2017)

smoseley said:


> Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.
> 
> Where's the rule that says I'm not allowed to enjoy a watch while also maintaining a healthy concern that I'm not burning my money in the process?


This is a forum of hobby enthusiasts, not an "influencer"'s Instagram account.
If you are trying to find if the next big thing is the Overseas no one here will be able to tell you that. If they can it will be already too late.


----------



## Pongster (Jan 7, 2017)

In terms of aesthetics and build quality, i find the three sports models from the big three to be comparable.










if you like the VCO, go ahead and buy with confidence. It is a great watch for sure.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

greedy said:


> This is a forum of hobby enthusiasts, not an "influencer"'s Instagram account.
> If you are trying to find if the next big thing is the Overseas no one here will be able to tell you that. If they can it will be already too late.


Sure. I'm just collecting data, not asking anyone what to do. Even investment analysts at hedge funds survey the market for data. Being candid about my goal is not the same thing as asking people for investment advice.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Zhanming057 said:


> But if you want an integrated bracelet indie that isn't insanely priced or play AD games, there are a half dozen great indie options from Czapek, Moser, Urban Jurgensen, etc.


Thanks, will check them out!


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

smoseley said:


> Thanks, will check them out!


Here's a bunch...


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

dbostedo said:


> Here's a bunch...


Aww man.... seeing them all side-by-side makes it even more obvious how stand-out the Overseas is, doesn't it?


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

smoseley said:


> Aww man.... seeing them all side-by-side makes it even more obvious how stand-out the Overseas is, doesn't it?


I didn't make the Overseas dial bigger intentionally! Just a coincidence! 

But personally, I'd take the Urban Jurgensen first.


----------



## Bird-Dog (Jan 22, 2021)

smoseley said:


> Laying out 5 figures for a watch is an investment for anyone... I don't understand how anyone can suggest it's not.


Because it's really not. Do you consider buying a 6-figure car an investment? Both are functional mechanical devices with luxury price-tags almost guaranteed to depreciate. Some may recover to increase in value over time, but that cannot be assured in advance.

It's a very nice watch and a fine selection. But I think your focus may have become clouded in the quest to justify the purchase to yourself. On one hand you frame it as an investment in art, comparing it to an original Picasso. Yet at the same time you worry that it might go out of style. Why? Because you realize it's not an original work of art. It is an artfully designed, skillfully manufactured product that can be replicated by the maker many times over. Likewise, a well rendered Picasso print or a Porsche 911 is an artfully designed, skillfully manufactured product that can be replicated many times over. That doesn't necessarily make them good investments, though.

Apologies if any of this sounds harsh. It's not meant to be. It's only meant to help you clarify your outlook and refine your expectations of the watch as an investment.


----------



## Inca Block (Mar 31, 2021)

teckel12 said:


> I think "value retention" can many times be misinterpreted as "investment". It's one of the reasons I have a hard time spending let's say $2k on a micro brand watch. I may love the watch, but I could also only get $50 for it in 10 years. I fully know it's *not* going to make me money, but it does enter my thoughts that maybe I'm just throwing money away.


Agreed. Another aspect of whether you think of a $20k watch purchase in terms of investment value, or value retention, is - to be frank - how much disposable cash is available to you.

If that kind of money is walking around money to you, then who cares about value retention. You can chuck it in a drawer and forget about it like a Casio. If $20k is a sizable proportion of your income though, you'd obviously be concerned about how much it continues to be worth.

Right now I'm in the latter camp, so any Big 3 watch is a stretch for me and would be a safe queen. This is somewhat antithetical to the idea of a sports watch. Therefore, if I ever get to the point where I can throw away $20k without blinking, then only at that point will I get a watch like the VCO.

This is not an indictment on being wealthy. Most of us here are to some degree. Just making a point about relative spending power and how that translates into how we see our watches.


----------



## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

Inca Block said:


> Agreed. Another aspect of whether you think of a $20k watch purchase in terms of investment value, or value retention, is - to be frank - how much disposable cash is available to you.
> 
> If that kind of money is walking around money to you, then who cares about value retention. You can chuck it in a drawer and forget about it like a Casio. If $20k is a sizable proportion of your income though, you'd obviously be concerned about how much it continues to be worth.
> 
> ...


They are all consumables. If you can't afford to lose money on something non essential, you should buy a cheaper alternative.

Any notion of "value retention" on an item that costs ~$400 a year in servicing and even more in insurance is just silly. Even with the Rolex inflation of the past decade they did not even outperform the S&P 500, and that's without taking into account servicing and insurance costs.


----------



## ManhattanMD (Dec 26, 2020)

smoseley said:


> I totally get that, and 100% agree that VC today is approximately in-line with AP, and near PP. My concern was mostly about the previous couple decades of this sort of thing...
> 
> View attachment 15819278
> 
> ...


That you would compare the VC Overseas going out of style similarly to how tacky that picture is leads me to believe you are not actually all too keen on the design of the Overseas. It seems because the watch is relatively more available than a 5711 or APRO, you are trying to see if it has similar second hand appreciation? If that is the case, then no. The Overseas won't appreciate as much as those models, but I don't see you losing any money if you decided to "invest" in the watch. Second hand prices are slowly going up over time.


----------



## michael8238 (Sep 13, 2015)

smoseley said:


> What about the v1 and v2 Overseas models with JLC movements and clunky designs? A v1 Overseas goes for around $10k these days, while a v1 Royal Oak is $100k. The market is obviously expressing issues with it.


They've actually both gone up in price---I guess they aren't that clunky to some collectors.
Just because they weren't as appreciated as RO initially doesn't necessarily mean they will always be unappreciated.
The fact that RO costs 100k only means more people like it better than Overseas ---you don't have to agree with them.
Ultimately, you determine your own taste, not the market value of an item.


----------



## Inca Block (Mar 31, 2021)

Zhanming057 said:


> They are all consumables. If you can't afford to lose money on something non essential, you should buy a cheaper alternative.
> 
> Any notion of "value retention" on an item that costs ~$400 a year in servicing and even more in insurance is just silly. Even with the Rolex inflation of the past decade they did not even outperform the S&P 500, and that's without taking into account servicing and insurance costs.


Yeah. Ultimately, in accounting terms a watch is a depreciating asset at best. Anything else is fooling yourself.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Inca Block said:


> Yeah. Ultimately, in accounting terms a watch is a depreciating asset at best. Anything else is fooling yourself.


Good luck depreciating a watch and not getting audited by the IRS.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

ManhattanMD said:


> That you would compare the VC Overseas going out of style similarly to how tacky that picture is leads me to believe you are not actually all too keen on the design of the Overseas.


That you don't recognize the most expensive watch Vacheron Constantin ever produced leads me to believe you didn't get the point.

Look, I'm not here to disparage VC, and I kind of hate that I'm being dragged into this debate. Believe it or not, I actually love the brand and many of their watches, and the Overseas is probably my top choice for my next watch. I'm just trying to vet my concerns. I think that's fair, isn't it?


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Bird-Dog said:


> Because it's really not. Do you consider buying a 6-figure car an investment? Both are functional mechanical devices with luxury price-tags almost guaranteed to depreciate. Some may recover to increase in value over time, but that cannot be assured in advance.


Absolutely, any car is an investment of capital, albeit most are very bad ones. To believe otherwise is a sure path to burning cash unnecessarily. That's why I only buy used cars, look for high potential for collectibility, and target the bottom or near-bottom of the depreciation curve, the same as I do with watches. It's why I've owned some pretty awesome cars for next to nothing. And guess what... I enjoyed them more because of that.

Look, you and others have the right to pay a premium to be first in line, or to get the exact thing you want when you want it. I'm not going to sit here and complain about it if that's what makes you happy. More power to you. But don't try to tell me that I don't have the right to try to minimize losses or potentially take a gain where possible. It's what makes me happy. Let it go.


----------



## Rodol (May 20, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> The last part about VC or GS has me scratching my head. GS makes a nice watch, but it does not really have a place in a conversation about VC/PP/AP/etc...


Based on what?


----------



## Inca Block (Mar 31, 2021)

smoseley said:


> Good luck depreciating a watch and not getting audited by the IRS.


If only


----------



## Inca Block (Mar 31, 2021)

smoseley said:


> Absolutely, any car is an investment of capital, albeit most are very bad ones. To believe otherwise is a sure path to burning cash unnecessarily. That's why I only buy used cars, look for high potential for collectibility, and target the bottom or near-bottom of the depreciation curve, the same as I do with watches. It's why I've owned some pretty awesome cars for next to nothing. And guess what... I enjoyed them more because of that.
> 
> Look, you and others have the right to pay a premium to be first in line, or to get the exact thing you want when you want it. I'm not going to sit here and complain about it if that's what makes you happy. More power to you. But don't try to tell me that I don't have the right to try to minimize losses or potentially take a gain where possible. It's what makes me happy. Let it go.


That's fair! Getting the best deal possible both now and in the future is prudent and fun in itself. I think I and others were just pointing out that watches aren't great purely as an asset class. I think you get that, so it seems we're on the same page.


----------



## Bugra (Mar 2, 2014)

An an enthusiast I`m against valuing watches per their projected value. If I were to be a watch dealer or jeweller, yes I'd consider that as a merit.

VC overseas may not gain much value but I doubt it'll lose much either, try find a used one from a reputable dealer and you're golden. At worst you'll sell it for the same price and enjoy all the years of wearing it. 

If you're buying it to sell it for double in 1-2 years... not sure it'll happen.

Genta designs are very much in fashion now, mainly between non-watch people, combine that with the watch people = double the demand and less the supply due to Covid.

Just like Panerai fashion phased out Genta-esque watches may also phase out in 3-4 years or they may not who knows... But fashion always phases and gets replaced with another fashion.


----------



## Bugra (Mar 2, 2014)

sieglo said:


> The idea that the brand was "misdirected" because it used one of the best chronograph movements in high horology, the Frédéric Piguet 1185, which also was used in the Royal oak, is really a bit much.


Piguet 1185 is `the` movement JBC wanted to use in Hublot but Mr. Hayek didn't agree to sell.

He says 1185 is the best chronograph out there because it doesn't lose amplitude when the Chrono is left run at all times.

Apparently every other Chrono movements out there loses amplitute when left run, therefore time.


----------



## bigclive2011 (Mar 17, 2013)

Depreciation or future trends is not and never has been something I have thought about when buying a watch.

But the most worrying thing about your post was when you quoted availability and price when compared to other trinity watches.

Kinda like me going into my Rolex dealer and walking out with a gold Yachtmaster when I wanted a steel Daytona really.

Tread carefully these are seriously expensive baubles, and should only be bought by the heart never the head IMO.


----------



## sieglo (Nov 3, 2019)

smoseley said:


> I do appreciate this feedback, and I don't want you to take what I said the wrong way... you obviously know a lot more about the history of the big 3 than I do. I expressed my concerns about VC based on my limited knowledge of their history, hoping that I would get feedback to either confirm or assuage my fears. Sounds like you're in the camp of "it's a non-issue"?


I'm in the camp that there has never been anything misdirected about Vacheron as a brand. They just haven't had a big hit like the Royal Oak. But I think from a design and innovation perspective, Vacheron is a lot better and healthier than AP, which is basically now a one trick pony.


----------



## adk225 (Feb 29, 2020)

smoseley said:


> Absolutely, any car is an investment of capital, albeit most are very bad ones. To believe otherwise is a sure path to burning cash unnecessarily. That's why I only buy used cars, look for high potential for collectibility, and target the bottom or near-bottom of the depreciation curve, the same as I do with watches. It's why I've owned some pretty awesome cars for next to nothing. And guess what... I enjoyed them more because of that.
> 
> Look, you and others have the right to pay a premium to be first in line, or to get the exact thing you want when you want it. I'm not going to sit here and complain about it if that's what makes you happy. More power to you. But don't try to tell me that I don't have the right to try to minimize losses or potentially take a gain where possible. It's what makes me happy. Let it go.


Again, you keep using the word _investment._ Pretty safe to say most people (here) don't consider a watch an investment, and most people (here and elsewhere) don't consider their car to be an investment. Here's a helpful definition:

*What Is an Investment?*
An investment is an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation.

Look, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing what makes you happy. But given the exact sort of speculation you're doing has driven some of the popular watch prices to absolutely crazy levels over the last few years (to the point some think watch "investors" and "speculators" are kind of ruining this hobby), don't expect people in an enthusiast forum to agree with how you feel. Fair?


----------



## B.Kohr (Mar 31, 2021)

In my completely amateur opinion, none of those designs will age that well.

When we think of certain “eras” positively, some of it is market manipulation, some of it is the youths fondness for their grandparents, and much of it is because the “chaff” has been blown away and only left the best examples of the time.

Cars are the best example, as they have fans, and significant maintenance costs, and only “cool” ones get kept up with.

If you want to make alternative investments, art can do very well.

Most watches won’t qualify that way, IMO. (That JLC with 4 faces might, if they ever actually sell one.)


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

adk225 said:


> Again, you keep using the word _investment._ Pretty safe to say most people (here) don't consider a watch an investment, and most people (here and elsewhere) don't consider their car to be an investment. Here's a helpful definition:
> 
> *What Is an Investment?*
> An investment is an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation.
> ...


Do negative interest treasuries not qualify as investments, then, in your opinion?

On the subject of semantic debate, I offer the below. "A thing worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future." This can apply to both cars and watches,if selected well.

I also want to add... if this definition can't apply to cars, why does the example (and most in the debate) call these asset classes "a bad investment"? Can't be a bad investment if it's not one at all.


----------



## Bugra (Mar 2, 2014)

Mate, people are trying to offer you an insightful advice, screenshotting random google searches ain’t gonna help you. If you want advice on investments check on reddit.

Put it this way watches would be classed as a very very volatile investments at all times.

And I don’t think you have a room to play yet. If only goal is to invest not enjoy, I’d move on from that investment to something more stable.


----------



## B.Kohr (Mar 31, 2021)

smoseley said:


> Do negative interest treasuries not qualify as investments, then, in your opinion?


Not to sane people....


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Bugra said:


> Mate, people are trying to offer you an insightful advice, screenshotting random google searches ain't gonna help you. If you want advice on investments check on reddit.
> 
> Put it this way watches would be classed as a very very volatile investments at all times.
> 
> And I don't think you have a room to play yet. If only goal is to invest not enjoy, I'd move on from that investment to something more stable.


See, this is what I'm talking about. You don't have the right to make inferences about my financial well-being or investment knowledge, or to suggest that I don't appreciate watches because I want to pick them at good values You want to help people out? Start by not insulting them.


----------



## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

smoseley said:


> Good luck depreciating a watch and not getting audited by the IRS.


Wait, you can't write it off as a capital loss to offset gains? I better send out a tax amendment before the 15th.


----------



## Bugra (Mar 2, 2014)

smoseley said:


> See, this is what I'm talking about. You don't have the right to make inferences about my financial well-being or investment knowledge, or to suggest that I don't appreciate watches because I want to pick them at good values You want to help people out? Start by not insulting them.


I'm saying you don't have room not because of your financial welth but because you're looking at it from wrong angle.

If you had 500 million dollar budget to create a watch hedge fund it's still wouldn't be a good idea imho.

That's why there is fund for everything but not for watches. As far as I know anyway.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Bugra said:


> I'm saying you don't have room not because of your financial welth but because you're looking at it from wrong angle.
> 
> If you had 500 million dollar budget to create a watch hedge fund it's still wouldn't be a good idea imho.
> 
> That's why there is fund for everything but not for watches. As far as I know anyway.


I don't disagree with this, and I think you must be misinterpreting what I'm saying. The debate, from my perspective, isn't about whether watches are a "good" investment, it's about the semantics of the word "investment" itself. People here seem to assume that a statement like "luxury watches are an investment" somehow implies "investing for profit". My stance is the word "investment" shows respect for the cash outlay, and sets one up to minimize exposure to depreciation. Respect for one's money is not the same thing as speculative investing.


----------



## Bugra (Mar 2, 2014)

It could be considered an investment like you say for some watches - ie you wouldn’t be able to spend that money on an impulse because it’s in a watch form not actual cash but the watch you’re holding may very well lose it’s value or not and 10k cash may be worth 7k in 5 years but 10k watch would go up or down depending on inflation and fashion.

Therefore you need to look at it from multiple angles not just cash depreciation.


----------



## duke2earl (Aug 18, 2020)

Everyone should do exactly what they want with their watches and their money. I can only speak for myself. I own at least a half dozen watches for which I paid over $10,000 apiece...and some well over that. I bought them because I liked them and I wanted them. I am truly fortunate that I have been able to afford to buy them. One of them is a VC Overseas. But I'm not selling any of them...thus their resale value is of zero importance to me. The only people who need concern themselves with their value are my heirs.

I view the value of my watches exactly like I view the value of the art that adorns my walls. Sometimes when I'm in an art gallery, the salesperson wants to discuss the value of the artist in question other paintings. I simply do not care. I buy art because I love the picture and I want to look at it every day. It's the same with watches. I buy a watch because I love it and want to see it on my wrist. That is its value to me. To me, treating art and beauty and enjoyment as an investment cheapens it.

Your mileage may vary.


----------



## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

smoseley said:


> I don't disagree with this, and I think you must be misinterpreting what I'm saying. The debate, from my perspective, isn't about whether watches are a "good" investment, it's about the semantics of the word "investment" itself. People here seem to assume that a statement like "luxury watches are an investment" somehow implies "investing for profit". My stance is the word "investment" shows respect for the cash outlay, and sets one up to minimize exposure to depreciation. Respect for one's money is not the same thing as speculative investing.


It's still a fool's errand.

Betting on depreciation (or lack thereof) is in no way different from betting on appreciation. But whatever you like if you can afford it. It's that simple.


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

Rodol said:


> Based on what?


Are you asking because you are learning watches and desire to learn, because you disagree, or because you feel every type of statement like mine justifies qualifiers (Wiki style). Based on the root of this question it will guide how (or if) I respond.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Mediocre said:


> Are you asking because you are learning watches and desire to learn, because you disagree, or because you feel every type of statement like mine justifies qualifiers (Wiki style). Based on the root of this question it will guide how (or if) I respond.


You're welcome to believe that. I, on the other hand, believe it's foolish to fork over 5 figures for anything without first doing some research and seeking to optimize your value. To each his own.


----------



## Rodol (May 20, 2020)

Mediocre said:


> Are you asking because you are learning watches and desire to learn, because you disagree, or because you feel every type of statement like mine justifies qualifiers (Wiki style). Based on the root of this question it will guide how (or if) I respond.


You don't need to respond. I think I have my answer, even though it's... mediocre.


----------



## Ojnewman91 (Mar 13, 2019)

smoseley said:


> Thanks, will check them out!


My personal opinion is that the current VC overseas will probably not appreciate in value, and that the secondary prices (for unworn pieces) will eventually fall below boutique MSRP, making them good value purchases in a few years. I do not believe that these will ever become as collectible as what we are seeing with some other popular models in the market now, and therefore you are more likely to record a "loss" than see any appreciation. In that sense I would contrast VC as a brand with the FP Journes of the world.

First, I do not believe that the overseas has nearly the same demand as its PP and AP counterparts. From what I have read on this forum (and I forget which threads), the expected wait time at boutiques is only ~6 months, compared to several years for its competitors. Further, (again from what I have read on here) the demand is not expected to continue, and there is little risk that the model will be discontinued. Hence, the secondary prices will begin to fall at some point in the future, once brand new models from the boutique are again widely available. The only caveat here is if VC comes out with an even newer and hotter overseas that manages to somehow become a "must have" watch. If a new model gets that kind of attention, then I could see prices around the older or less popular models start to increase as both brand awareness rises and people start to seek out more attainable models from the collection. While I love VC, I personally hope this does not happen, because for ~13-15k pre-owned, the 4500V will look amazing on my wrist


----------



## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

smoseley said:


> You're welcome to believe that. I, on the other hand, believe it's foolish to fork over 5 figures for anything without first doing some research and seeking to optimize your value. To each his own.


I was responding to the question I quoted. Pretty sure you took my response out of context. It was not directed at anything you wrote.



Rodol said:


> You don't need to respond. I think I have my answer, even though it's... mediocre.


Ok ?‍♂


----------



## mlcor (Oct 21, 2013)

Hmm, well first, just from the point of view of "what I like," I've owned both an APRO and the third generation three hand Overseas (black dial for the former, blue dial for the latter). Sold the AP, kept the Overseas, and five years later I still love it. Don't like the 5711, never did, wouldn't buy one. I think the Overseas is a more practical and more wearable choice than the AP (which, don't get me wrong, is still an awesome watch).

Now, value...I'm in the "don't care too much" camp. I wouldn't buy a watch like this (or any of my other high end pieces) if I had to worry about its value down the road. But that's partially because I've been down this rabbit hole for a number of years and understand my tastes well enough to know it's unlikely that I will want to flip a high end watch that I buy now. That wouldn't have been the case five years ago.

As it happens, I bought my Overseas when it first came out--walked into a dealer, got a discount and walked out with the watch. Today, I could sell it for a nice profit...except I have no desire to do so, and therefore that fact isn't relevant to me, it's one of my favorite watches. I have a couple of other high end pieces that I would probably take a bath on if I sold them, but again, I don't care because they are also unlikely to be sold (at least until I'm senile or dead).

The two watches I own that have gone crazy in value aren't even high end pieces (Rolex Hulk and Omega Silver Snoopy). Between the two of them I could make a hefty five figure profit, but again, I love those two and have no desire to sell them, so it doesn't matter to me.

Finally, in terms of history and brand reputation, I don't personally care except from an intellectual point of view, nor do I think a VC, PP or AP sells at a different price because of their relative historical strength. Personally I think VC has been far more interesting in terms of introducing new and different models than AP (another variation of the RO, anyone?) or PP (which changes its designs at a glacial pace).

At the end of the day (if the OP has even bothered reading to the end of this lengthy post--sorry about that), if you have discretionary funds available, IMO buy what moves you most emotionally.


----------



## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

smoseley said:


> Should I just give up and go all-in on Grand Seiko?


whatever you decide, never ever go for GS....sorry i just don't like the brand

so i have tried all three sports watches




































VC are very well made watches, the ones i tried were all amazing. and they had superb movement in them (FP thin movement with vertical clutch). if having your name on the certificate of origin is not important to you then i would definitely suggest going secondary or grey. 
however the biggest difference between VC, AP and PP is the fact that with PP (and AP to a lesser degree) you know that you have a watch on your wrist that is worth more than what you paid for. and that is a very good feeling 
if you ever need to liquidate a watch for any kind of emergency then PP and AP would be much easier to liquidate than VC


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Ojnewman91 said:


> My personal opinion is that the current VC overseas will probably not appreciate in value, and that the secondary prices (for unworn pieces) will eventually fall below boutique MSRP, making them good value purchases in a few years. I do not believe that these will ever become as collectible as what we are seeing with some other popular models in the market now, and therefore you are more likely to record a "loss" than see any appreciation. In that sense I would contrast VC as a brand with the FP Journes of the world.
> 
> First, I do not believe that the overseas has nearly the same demand as its PP and AP counterparts. From what I have read on this forum (and I forget which threads), the expected wait time at boutiques is only ~6 months, compared to several years for its competitors. Further, (again from what I have read on here) the demand is not expected to continue, and there is little risk that the model will be discontinued. Hence, the secondary prices will begin to fall at some point in the future, once brand new models from the boutique are again widely available. The only caveat here is if VC comes out with an even newer and hotter overseas that manages to somehow become a "must have" watch. If a new model gets that kind of attention, then I could see prices around the older or less popular models start to increase as both brand awareness rises and people start to seek out more attainable models from the collection. While I love VC, I personally hope this does not happen, because for ~13-15k pre-owned, the 4500V will look amazing on my wrist


Thank you! This is exactly the input I was hoping to find. Consider the blue dial 4500v was having a hard time moving at ~ $15k preowned just a few months ago, but is all over the place at ~ $25k+ now (this chart is crazy) and it would seem there's certainly risk of current market demand getting saturated really quickly, as production picks up again.

That said, I'm not sure this trend is limited to the Overseas or VC. It looks like the watch market broadly has seen a recent influx of demand and shortage of supply... prices are crazy across the board. Probably a better time to be a seller than a buyer.


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Azizu said:


> whatever you decide, never ever go for GS....sorry i just don't like the brand


... he said... before he realized my avatar is picture of the GS I just bought 😂


----------



## spidaman (Dec 24, 2011)

I love the looks of the VCO, and I fantasize about it someday replacing my Skyfall AT as the workhorse in my rotation. Alas, I don't see spending five figures on a watch anytime soon.

With respect to the value retention proposition, it seems APRO and Nautilus are pretty secure for the foreseeable future. Not to say that the VCO won't, just that it seems unlikely.

I would buy a gently used model unless I really needed that brand new experience.

Cheers!


----------



## beckcommar (Sep 17, 2016)

smoseley said:


> Yeah, I'm aware of this. but VC only went in-house on the Overseas about 5 years ago, right? Didn't PP and AP go fully back in-house decades ago?


No. VC actually made the Overseas line fully in house before AP did with the Royal Oak. Of course, in house isn't really all that important. But just to be clear, if you think it is a mark of quality then AP is clearly the last to the party.

One other aspect to consider is the totality of each brand. I think there is no question that Patek is truly top tier in everything they do. But I'd argue that VC is really a level above AP overall and especially at the high end. AP as a brand has very little collector interest outside of the Royal Oak. Unlike Patek and VC which make popular sport watches but mostly make high end dress watches and complications. VC consistently puts out incredible high horology pieces and has a true base of collectors who pay top dollar for the very best of what the brand can do. Look at their releases this year and you'll see watchmaking at and above the level of high end Patek. AP barely competes with either.

I guess what I'm saying is that judging these brands based on their least impressive and most basic watches seems like a strangely narrow view. Taken as a whole I think AP is really the one that feels like it doesn't quite stack up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

beckcommar said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that judging these brands based on their least impressive and most basic watches seems like a strangely narrow view. Taken as a whole I think AP is really the one that feels like it doesn't quite stack up.


That's fair. Thanks for the color!


----------



## Darkchild (Aug 3, 2020)

Secondary prices are starting to creep up on these. Seems VC and AL&S are next on the greys hit list


----------



## smoseley (Jan 26, 2021)

Darkchild said:


> Secondary prices are starting to creep up on these. Seems VC and AL&S are next on the greys hit list


Prices on the VCO are up 20+% by my measure. They're selling at or even above retail now.


----------



## Darkchild (Aug 3, 2020)

smoseley said:


> Prices on the VCO are up 20+% by my measure. They're selling at or even above retail now.


There really does seem to be an organised effort amongst the larger pre-owned shops to inflate 2nd hand prices. I know for example Watchbox made a concerted effort to pump and promote FPJ after they went long on stock - and it worked.


----------



## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

oh absolutely. i'd buy the Overseas in a heartbeat .their line is AMAZING. in my eyes of course.
i see your concern, but maybe you're overthinking it . as you know that can cause anxiety and end up losing some sleeps over that  . but remember 2 things:
1) we're talking about a solid company with rich history. and
2) you should always buy what YOU LOVE . otherwise you're not going to enjoy it. regardless of what some people say about the trifecta brands to have ( Rolex, PP and AP ). 
personally i think VC is on par with those aforementioned brands in terms of quality and investment.

the other thing to remember is that all this madness about these watches selling 50, 80, and 100% obove retail ?. all that started a few years ago. so maybe VC's time hasn't come yet. but soon will.
best of luck


----------



## BigSeikoFan (Feb 15, 2010)

smoseley said:


> Do negative interest treasuries not qualify as investments, then, in your opinion?


Late to the party but sure, they definitely qualify. Nothing says that an investment has to go up in value. Stocks and bonds can lose you money; you just _hope_ that they don't...



smoseley said:


> On the subject of semantic debate, I offer the below. "A thing worth buying because it may be profitable or useful in the future." This can apply to both cars and watches,if selected well.
> 
> I also want to add... if this definition can't apply to cars, why does the example (and most in the debate) call these asset classes "a bad investment"? Can't be a bad investment if it's not one at all.


Semantics, indeed. Hair splitting for sure. If it makes people happy, leave the word "investment" out of it and just say whether its value will go up or down. Eazy peazy. Dodges the entire time-wasting debate.


----------



## BigSeikoFan (Feb 15, 2010)

smoseley said:


> I don't disagree with this, and I think you must be misinterpreting what I'm saying. The debate, from my perspective, isn't about whether watches are a "good" investment, it's about the semantics of the word "investment" itself. People here seem to assume that a statement like "luxury watches are an investment" somehow implies "investing for profit". My stance is the word "investment" shows respect for the cash outlay, and sets one up to minimize exposure to depreciation. Respect for one's money is not the same thing as speculative investing.


This is fair. And well-stated.


----------



## NTJW (May 28, 2019)

I personally think VC Overseas have never gone out of style, and their recent releases are great and states that they still belong into the high-end steel sports watch crowd.

If not, it is also one or the iconic non-Genta watches out there. When you see an overseas, you dont get mistaken for anything else.

While your concern regarding investment, I personally have a different point of view for it. We cant really guess if it will one day appreciate or depreciate in value, perhaps one day we will all find no market for mechanical watches and they will just be trash, who knows.

But investment in my view, is how much are you going to wear it? Is it something that you will wear daily? Is it something you'd take anywhere and smile when you look down on it? The same analog comes to buying a sports car - is it worth the investment? Yes if you are gonna drive it daily, but if you only drive it once every christmas, then no. You can buy a Honda instead.

The best investment in watches is the investment that benefits you, in this case, morally. If it does appreciate in value, then take it as a bonus. Sure its not wrong to want whatever you buy to retain its value, but nothing wrong either if you are gonna wear it and not sell it off, because no matter the value price for it in the future, it will not generate cash for you.


----------



## Oleg1987 (Feb 12, 2019)

It is a good buy but only if you like it personally


----------



## chap (Aug 7, 2012)

I have the overseas dual time with the blue dial. It was a good buy for me. I feel like it’s a very high quality piece, a great value for the money (as watches in this price range go anyway) and it brings me pleasure to wear it.


----------



## kreative (Feb 14, 2021)

I thin VC is worthy and it should last. Regarding GS, they are definitely a value play i see prices going up soon


----------



## Azizu (May 4, 2018)

smoseley said:


> ... he said... before he realized my avatar is picture of the GS I just bought 😂


I spoke tooooo sooon 😂😂😂


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

No idea









But I dig it


----------



## illus83 (Feb 3, 2010)

I just picked up a VCO. I can't get over the quality and detail they put into it. I also love the fact that they include the rubber and leather straps. For me it was a good buy.


----------



## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

Price went up by quite a bit over Msrp where I am from for the blue dial. My friend was last to get on the waitlist. Now the only VC boutique here won’t sell it to you unless you pair it with something else like with Rolex. So annoying. Travel restrictions need to lift soon so stupid money can flow back to travel. Currently cant get anything really.

No VC’s , no ps5’s , no op41’s, no Tudor BB58 or chronos, no yeezies , no supreme . Literally can’t buy anything in demand right now lol


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Tomatoes11 said:


> Price went up by quite a bit over Msrp where I am from for the blue dial. My friend was last to get on the waitlist. Now the only VC boutique here won't sell it to you unless you pair it with something else like with Rolex. So annoying. Travel restrictions need to lift soon so stupid money can flow back to travel. Currently cant get anything really.
> 
> No VC's , no ps5's , no op41's, no Tudor BB58 or chronos, no yeezies , no supreme . Literally can't buy anything in demand right now lol


I got a BB58 right here if you want


----------

