# ETA 2824-2 or COSC ETA 2824-2



## JCW1980

I'm considering buying a Stowa Airman at some point and I'm trying to decide on what movement to get. The standard Airman comes with the ETA 2824-2, however, it is possible to upgrade to the COSC certified version of the same movement (for another 177 euros).

I'm sure there are a few of you out there that have struggled with this same decision. What decision did you make and what helped you make your decision? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Zavato

There are threads on this very question. I bought and received my Airman in December 2007 and did not get the COSC movement. I've been wearing my Airman for the last day and a half; in that time it's gained 7 seconds. Certainly COSC tolerance from a non-COSC movement. Ultimately, I did not want to spring for the extra dough, but it's a very nice watch and if having a COSC movement will enhance your ownership experience, then I say why not? For me, if I am looking for the ultimate in precision, I have 3 quartz watches to choose from- inlcuding a g-Shock with an atomic clock receiver. It's the most reasonably priced watch I have ($77) and yet the most accurate. Increasing price in watches certainly does not yield, in my experience, increasing accuracy. So sit back, make your decision, and enjoy!


----------



## roseskunk

Hey welcome neighbor! I'm 55 miles from Dallas, in Commerce. I've got an FO2 incoming, you might what to see it to help you decide on the Airman. Me, personally I never check the accuracy of my watches. I have a phone with a clock that I keep in my pocket, my computers all have clocks, and frankly I never have to be anywhere within COSC time. It would be great if my mechanical watches were as accurate as quartz, but that's not why I buy them. ;-)


----------



## Guest

Let me answer with some standard answers:

1) Please use our serach function. The question "COSC or not" has been discussed on WUS a couple of times. Just type "COSC".
2) Stowa watches are regulated very well so it comes down to a personal decision.

3) ETA movements are available in different grades which have some impact on their performance.

The performance differences are the big differences between the various grades: ("The limit values are subject to interpretation: 95% of the pieces delivered in a lot must be within the specified limits.")

Standard:
2 positions (CH, 6H)
daily rate: +/-12 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 30 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 20 sec

Elabore:
3 positions (CH, 6H, 9H)
daily rate: +/-7 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 20 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 15 sec

Top:
5 positions (CH, FH, 6H, 9H, 3H)
daily rate: +/-4 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 15 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 10 sec

Chronometre:
As per COSC specifications, which as far as most owners will notice, isn't much different from Top grade.

The "material differences" are listed below.

Standard and Elabore:
Mainspring - Nivaflex NO
Shock protection - Etachocs
Pallet stones - Polyrubies, Epilame-coated
Balance - Nickel gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Nivarox 2
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable

Top and Chronometre:
Mainspring - NivaflexNM
Shock protection - Incabloc
Pallet stones - Red rubies, Epilame-coated
Balance - Glucydur gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Anachron
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable


----------



## PipPip

I bought a Marine Auto with a non-COSC version of the ETA 2824-2. I was checking it against my computer for the first week and it lost about 3 seconds in the first week. I just checked it again today, after 2 weeks of continuous wear, and it is dead on, not even +/- 1 second from the time I set it to 2 weeks ago. So clearly Stowa are able to regulate this movement very accurately.


----------



## JCW1980

Thanks to all you guys! Overall, sounds like a fairly minor difference in the movements (for all intents and purposes).

Mike, I'll search for a "COSC or not" thread for further reading, thanks for the tip!

Hi, Roseskunk. Thanks for the offer to see your watch, I may have to take you up on that before I get one!


----------



## bydandie

I have a Stowa Airman with COSC that ran +7.5 secs/day which I have had sent off for regulation at my own expense to a local watchmaker and it now runs +5 secs/week. 

COSC is worth it for looks and stable rate, but don't expect it to be accurate within COSC specs as Stowa won't automatically take it back if running out of COSC specs, which I thought was the point of buying the movement upgrade.


----------



## FrancoThai

Hi All,

When I bought my Stowa Marine Auto, I chose the COSC version due to I wanted the highest grade of ETA movement and all in all it is still very affordable.

FrancoThai


----------



## Spock99

JCW1980 said:


> I'm considering buying a Stowa Airman at some point and I'm trying to decide on what movement to get. The standard Airman comes with the ETA 2824-2, however, it is possible to upgrade to the COSC certified version of the same movement (for another 177 euros).
> 
> I'm sure there are a few of you out there that have struggled with this same decision. What decision did you make and what helped you make your decision? Thanks in advance!


I bought a watch with a standard 2824-2. It was 13 seconds fast per day and I was disppointed. But I then realized how easy it is to open it up and turn the Etachron fine regulator screw with a jewlers .8mm screwdriver and loupe. It now runs +1.5 seconds per day.

However, if you go with the COSC version, you can then say you have watch you can "navigate the oceans with" like my father in-law, who spends 800 bucks every couple of years servicing his Rolex to keep it accurate. I don't have the heart to tell him that my 50 dollar quartz watch is far more accurate than his watch. :-d


----------



## heb

Given the wide variability of ETA 2824 performance--accuracy and stability--the COSC'd version would be your best bet. You just don't know what you are going to get with that particular movement. My Breitling based COSC 2824, performs much better than most of my unCOSC 2824s.

Good luck with your choice,
heb


----------



## langtoftlad

I have two Anteas - one COSC, one not...

















Do I notice the difference in timekeeping, build quality, components or decoration? 
Nope - sorry :roll:.

Do I enjoy knowing that I have two similar but different variants of the same movement?
Yep - for sure!

I enjoy having two models of the same watch but;
One black, one creme.
One date, one not.
One bracelet, one strap.
One COSC, one not.

















Does one 'perform' better than the other - I truly don't know, but I doubt it.

Think of it as model of car but with a different trim level :think:.


----------



## Guest

Looks good with mesh !


----------



## flame2000

I went with the COSC for my airman date, knowing that you are getting the best grade for a ETA2824-2 at an acceptable price.
You can't go wrong with either movement grade. Stowa elaboree grade are very well regulated too.


----------



## WimS

Hello,

The Stowa website does NOT state that the chrometer movement is an ETA Chronometer Grade (or Top Grade), just that it is COSC certified (and therefore can be called a chronometer). My guess is that it is a decorated, precisely regulated and of course COSC tested movement, but not a significant upgrade.

I still think the extra money is well spend, not because of an improvement in quality but because the movement looks better. The COSC papers are a nice extra.

To be clear: more expensive watches also use movements below Top Grade...


----------



## Guest

WimS said:


> Hello,
> 
> The Stowa website does NOT state that the chrometer movement is an ETA Chronometer Grade (or Top Grade), just that it is COSC certified (and therefore can be called a chronometer). My guess is that it is a decorated, precisely regulated and of course COSC tested movement, but not a significant upgrade.
> 
> I still think the extra money is well spend, not because of an improvement in quality but because the movement looks better. The COSC papers are a nice extra.
> 
> To be clear: more expensive watches also use movements below Top Grade...


Your guess is wrong. It has to be "chronometre" otherwise it wouldn't pass the COSC testing (www.cosc.ch). Standard and Elabore wouldn't fit the remit.


----------



## Andy the Squirrel

Which grade is has the regular airman got?


----------



## WimS

Any Swiss movement can pass the COSC test as long as it is accurate. It doesn't have to be an ETA and it doesn't have to be a specific grade. A movement that is accurate, but is not Swiss however, can not get a COSC certificate. (The Swiss don't like Seiko 

The Top and Chronometer grades from ETA have better components, but that doesn't mean that a Standard or Elabore movement (or a non ETA movement) can't pass the test.

I own two Breitling watches, both are COSC certified, but contain Breitling movements (actually ETA 2824-2 movements, but finished by a company that is owned by Breitling), not Chronometer Grade movements that were purchased as such by Breitling.

An even better example is Rolex. Rolex doesn't use ETA movements, but their movements are COSC certified.

The whole COSC test isn't that relevant, it doesn't test the watch, only the movement and any decent movement that is carefully regulated will pass.

The 'Qualite Fleurier' certificate however...


----------



## WimS

I asked the question about the movement to Stowa. Their reply:
"Our COSC movement is elaboré" 
This means that, from a technical point of view, it isn't that much better than a regular Stowa movement.
I would still get the COSC certification though. It looks better.
In the end: I feel you can't go wrong with Stowa, whatever choice you make.


----------



## Pontryagin

WimS wrote:

I asked the question about the movement to Stowa. Their reply:
"Our COSC movement is elaboré".

Does that mean the COSC ETA 2824-2 movement is not a Top grade movement? That would be very disappointing and quite different what Mike wrote before. :-|


----------



## pilotsnoopy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC

"COSC testing generally applies to watches manufactured/assembled in Switzerland.Notwithstanding, the normative standards are set by international agreement and are the same whether they are nominally labeled ISO or DIN standards. Some German, Japanese, and even non-certified Swiss movements can surpass the normative requirements. The Japanese have largely abandoned the accolade, replacing it with in-house testing to a slightly more strict standard as with, for example, the Grand Seiko. On the other hand, the Germans have set up their own testing facility in Saxony at the Glashütte Observatory where the DIN 8319 standards, which mirror the ISO standards used by COSC, are employed."


----------



## Guest

All you wrote has been written here on WUS and on that particular forum several times. nothing new though. Pls. name any *"Standard"*grade ETA which passed the COSC testing. TIA


----------



## Ghumbs

Mike,
Might I advise you put the COSC information in the FAQ? It is confusing for many and, although you're correct in saying the info is in past threads, complete information regarding the differences between the COSC and non-COSC ETAs can be found in bits and pieces and is difficult to find, even when using the search function. Thanks.


----------



## Guest

Ghumbs said:


> Mike,
> Might I advise you put the COSC information in the FAQ? It is confusing for many and, although you're correct in saying the info is in past threads, complete information regarding the differences between the COSC and non-COSC ETAs can be found in bits and pieces and is difficult to find, even when using the search function. Thanks.


Well, may I refer to www.cosc.ch


----------



## flame2000

Pontryagin said:


> WimS wrote:
> 
> I asked the question about the movement to Stowa. Their reply:
> "Our COSC movement is elaboré".
> 
> Does that mean the COSC ETA 2824-2 movement is not a Top grade movement? That would be very disappointing and quite different what Mike wrote before. :-|


No offence here....but you guys are funny. A COSC ETA 2824-2 is a chronometer grade movement. A Top grade and COSC grade movement are basically the same, except the latter is subjected to the testing procedure of the Official Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute, hence it comes with the COSC certificate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COSC


----------



## Ghumbs

stuffler said:


> Well, may I refer to www.cosc.ch


That's true, however, basically what people are wanting to know is if the only difference is the certification or if there are any physical differences to the watch. Only a suggestion, of course.


----------



## WimS

The Oris Chronometer (now discontinued) to my knowledge contained a movement that was not classified by ETA as Top Grade or Chronometer Grade.
It was however certified by COSC and therefore a chronometer. It did not contain the upgraded components: f.e. no Glycodor balance or Anachron spring.


----------



## WimS

I asked Stowa directly. Stowa tells me that their Chronometer Movement is an Eta Elabore movement.
Please note that the Stowa website does not claim that the Chonometer movement contains a Glycodor balance or Anachron spring etc. Those components are only found in Eta Top Grade and Chronometer Grade.

A chronometer movement is not necessarily an ETA Chronometer GRADE (my capitals).

An Eta Chrometer GRADE movement is not just COSC certified but also has better components.


----------



## WimS

Send Stowa an e-mail and ask them. They respond quickly and are very helpfull. Anyway, an elabore movement is fine. Also: I personally prefer the Stowa handwinders with a swan neck regulator. A 2824-2 is a dependable and accurate movement, but they are a dime a dozen.


----------



## brainless

WimS said:


> Send Stowa an e-mail and ask them. They respond quickly and are very helpfull. Anyway, an elabore movement is fine. Also: I personally prefer the Stowa handwinders with a swan neck regulator. A 2824-2 is a dependable and accurate movement, but *they are a dime a* *dozen*.


Hi WIMS,

where can I purchase them? 
Converted in EUR it means I could buy about 180 pcs. of 2824-2 mvts. for ONE Euro, wow. :-!
Now I understand why you prefer a UNITAS in your watch,

Volker ;-)


----------



## WimS

Hi Brainless,

Unfortunate figure of speech  I apologise!
Seriously: I recently bought a 2824-2 movement and my supplier warned me that they are increasingly more difficult to get, especially with a nice finish (almost impossible). That is why I believe Stowa offers a great deal. 

For the record: the 2824-2 Elabore Grade is in my opinion an excellent movement and because there are so many spare parts around, any decent watch maker can service or repair the movement.

But I'm really impressed with the Unitas watches Stowa offers. Amazing (not just good) value for money! The decoration is extremely well executed, much better than some other watches with a Unitas movement that I own.


----------



## Blame

Pontryagin said:


> Does that mean the COSC ETA 2824-2 movement is not a Top grade movement? That would be very disappointing and quite different what Mike wrote before. :-|


I too was under the impression it was top grade - thanks in part to doing just what Mike suggests - a search on these forums!

It turns out, it was Mike's marvellous review of the Marine Automatic that was the cause of all the confusion for me:-

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=235351

The ETA 2824-2 was introduced in 1982 by ETA (see: www.eta.ch).
The ETA 2824-2 measures 25,6 mm (which is 11''1/2 lines) in diameter and 4,6 mm in height. The 25 jewels - movement beats at 28.000 b/h.
Power reserve: approximately 38-42 hours. The rotor winds up bi-directional.
 The Marine movement comes with *Glucydur balance*, flat Nivarox spring, *Incabloc shock protection* with "Exzenter" fine regulation.

and then in this thread:-

Standard and Elabore:
Mainspring - Nivaflex NO
Shock protection - Etachocs
Pallet stones - Polyrubies, Epilame-coated
Balance - Nickel gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Nivarox 2
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable

 Top and Chronometre:
Mainspring - NivaflexNM
 Shock protection - *Incabloc*
Pallet stones - Red rubies, Epilame-coated
 Balance - *Glucydur* gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Anachron
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable

And so it sort of made sense that the standard versions had Top grade and COSC versions were Chronometer grade.

I really had to dig very deep and read a lot of confusing and conflicting, contradictory threads and eventually came to the conclusion that *both* the standard and COSC versions of ETA 2824 available from Stowa are Elabore grade, but I'm not convinced I am right in thinking this - there is just a little too much doubt out there to make me certain.

People have said that the movements don't actually have the Glucydur balance as they lack the distinctive splaying towards the edges, but that they probably do have the Incabloc but remain Elabore grade. I don't think anyone is saying the basic movement is standard grade.

Not that it makes any difference whatsoever as far as I am concerned, it is the look of the watch that I like and I am aware that the 2824 is a rugged and capable movement, easily serviced at any good jeweller. For me, the extra expense on (what is probably the same grade movement) is just not worth it (but to be honest, even if the COSC version was chronometer grade, it still wouldn't be something I would pay extra for!). Now if it were a handwound 2804 or a Unitas ...


----------



## WimS

Blame said:


> ...I really had to dig very deep and read a lot of confusing and conflicting, contradictory threads and eventually came to the conclusion that *both* the standard and COSC versions of ETA 2824 available from Stowa are Elabore grade, but I'm not convinced I am right in thinking this - there is just a little too much doubt out there to make me certain...


About the Stowa chronometer movement: that is the answer I got from Stowa. An elabore grade movement that is COSC certified.

The confusion is mainly caused by the name Eta uses for their top off the line 2584-2 movement (Chronometer Grade). In my opinion it would have been better if they had chosen another name. But it does makes sense from a marketing perspective.
What bugs me is that some Swiss companies are using elabore grade ETA movements (not necessarily COSC certified) in watches in the € 1.500,- € 3.500,- price range. Sometimes the price is justified by the case or the materials used, but often not.

This is the main reason I believe this discussion is worthwhile. If you know what is inside a watch, you can decide if the price is fair.


----------



## flame2000

Blame said:


> People have said that the movements don't actually have the Glucydur balance as they lack the distinctive splaying towards the edges, but that they probably do have the Incabloc but remain Elabore grade. I don't think anyone is saying the basic movement is standard grade.


You means this balance wheel below.......with the distinctive splaying towards the edges. I am definitely seeing this balance wheel on my Stowa Airman COSC movement.










Below is a Stowa COSC movement and a Stowa elabore grade movement. You can visually see that the "elabore grade" does not have the Glucydur balance (Pics borrowed from net. Mod, pls delete if not allow to use). If Stowa does use an elaboree grade as a base for the chronometer movement, I believe they upgrade some of the parts before submitting the movement to COSC for certification. Someone correct me if I am wrong. ;-)


----------



## Blame

flame2000 said:


> You means this balance wheel below.......with the distinctive splaying towards the edges. I am definitely seeing this balance wheel on my Stowa Airman COSC movement.
> 
> Below is a Stowa COSC movement and a Stowa elabore grade movement. You can visually see that the "elabore grade" does not have the Glucydur balance (Pics borrowed from net. Mod, pls delete if not allow to use). If Stowa does use an elaboree grade as a base for the chronometer movement, I believe they upgrade some of the parts before submitting the movement to COSC for certification. Someone correct me if I am wrong. ;-)


I've never seen one. I am merely stating the deficiencies of doing a search on these forums (or any other, or the internet in general). When you have to sift through hundreds of contradictory posts to try and find the answers you are looking for and one person is saying something believable and another person is saying something believable too, but they are not in agreement, who do you believe?

I personally wouldn't have known any better about the balance if one post or another hadn't mentioned it. But does any of it really matter? The reason I'm looking at a Marine Automatic is not because I am a collector looking to add watches, it's because my watch, the one that I wore day in, day out has broken for the last time and is uneconomical to repair.

I have lately been wearing a watch I found in a drawer that belonged to my grandfather that has not seen the light of day for over thirty years. I admit that the first few times I wound it, it gained 2-3 minutes an hour, but I persevered and kept winding it to move the oils around a bit and now, if I wind it ten times in the morning, it runs all day and is out by no more than one second per hour - if I wind it more than that, it goes a little haywire! And who knows what kind of movement that is (17 jewels swiss is all I can make out).

It certainly hasn't been serviced in the last thirty years and it is incredibly unlikely that my grandfather would have had it serviced, so who gives a monkey's about COSC - just some modern day infatuation for people who have too little to worry about.

I wasn't looking for a Stowa, I hadn't even heard of Stowa before this year. I only know anything about watches because of things I have read on this and other forums. And I only came to these forums because I was fed up of all the bickering on the photography forums between Canon and Nikon people. I probably wouldn't have known there was even anything to consider better than a Seiko until you hit Omega/Rolex and I certainly wouldn't have known about AP/PP/VC and GP/JLC/BP/GO/AL&S or indeed Fortis, Sinn and Stowa, or Dornblueth, or Nomos. And I wouldn't have known a 3130 from a 2403 or a 2892 from a 2824 and just think, I would never have known about the 6498 and that would have been a crying shame. But none of it is healthy and there comes a point where you have to stand back and regain your sanity or what is left of it.

When I saw a Marine Original for the first time it led me very quickly to the Marine Automatic and for a few months I did sway back and forth between them. I prefer the movement and hands of the MO but I don't want another small seconds watch and in all other areas it's the MA for me. And it has helped so much finding a resource such as this where there is so much good information around - there are some watches I have liked but hardly been able to learn anything at all about them (Davosa anyone?).

I have to say that the great review (by Mike) and the pictures provided by members here - and of course the friendly participation of 'the boss' - have really made me believe my search is over and there is no other watch (at any price, of any brand) that I would rather have.

But when there is so much information, it can be so much more confusing than when there is none at all!


----------



## flame2000

Blame said:


> But when there is so much information, it can be so much more confusing than when there is none at all!


That's true! 
So I would just say follow your heart and get what you you like most! :-!


----------



## WimS

flame2000 said:


> .
> If Stowa does use an elaboree grade as a base for the chronometer movement, I believe they upgrade some of the parts before submitting the movement to COSC for certification. Someone correct me if I am wrong.


A simple solution: Stowa could list the components used in the movement. To some people it doesn't matter, to others it does.

Archimede sells a handwinder with a Top Grade movement and has a short list of the main components on the website.

This leaves no room for confusion.


----------



## Pontryagin

Recently I did an investigation on COSC and non-COSC. I read almost every post and followed every link I could find. Finally I came to the conclusion that a COSC movement delivered by Stowa must be Top Grade. I had no contra-indications, although I have to admit that I – strange enough - did not found explicit statements.

The Stowa statement “Our COSC movement is elaboré” came as a surprise, at least to me. I read this statement over and over, but I did not fully understand. What does it really mean? The word “elaboré” is French for “elaborated”, which means as much as “improved”. The statement may have several explanations:

a. Our COSC movement is elaborated.
b. Our COSC movement is Elaboré Grade.
c. Our COSC movement is elaborated Elaboré Grade.
d. Our COSC movement is elaborated Top Grade.

Since we do not know what Stowa exactly meant to say, it is still possible that a COSC movement is Top Grade, but honestly I don’t believe it any more. I now believe the third explanation is true: the COSC movement is elaborated Elaboré Grade, so it comes with some improvements (some better components and/or some nicer decorations).

I wonder if Stowa always used Elaboré Grade movements for its COSC movements or if this is something from the recent past.


----------



## kevral

Old thread, but still:

During today's email exchange with Stowa I learned that the regular movement is "Elabore" and the COSC is a "Top".


----------



## clubbtraxx

kevral said:


> Old thread, but still:
> 
> During today's email exchange with Stowa I learned that the regular movement is "Elabore" and the COSC is a "Top".


That is interesting and useful information.

Thank you for sharing.

Regards,

CT


----------



## JarrodS

Thank you for posting. I should hope this would be the case, because the price difference is large in comparison to the cost of the watch (although still a very fair price for a certified Chronometer). Earlier in the thread it was stated otherwise, and this was making me feel a bit cheated as I just purchased a COSC fleiger going on the assumption that the COSC movement was the higher grade. I hope this is indeed the case today.

Is there a way to tell for sure by looking at the movement?


----------



## Sean779

JarrodS said:


> Thank you for posting. I should hope this would be the case, because the price difference is large in comparison to the cost of the watch (although still a very fair price for a certified Chronometer). Earlier in the thread it was stated otherwise, and this was making me feel a bit cheated as I just purchased a COSC fleiger going on the assumption that the COSC movement was the higher grade. I hope this is indeed the case today.
> 
> Is there a way to tell for sure by looking at the movement?


if it's COSC it's top grade +, which is COSC chronometer. Only top grade 2824s are submitted for COSC chronometer certification.


----------

