# Zenith Class Elite



## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi everyone,

First, Im very glad I found this forum, Ive learnt a lot from here so far. 
I ve known Zenith brand for a long time but I dont know much about it. When I was looking for a Panerai my attention was caught by this
http://www.timeofswitzerland.com/Zenith-Class-Elite-Automatique-01.1125.680-02.C490_e.cfm.

I have a few sport/casual watches and this Zenith could be a good elegant one for me.
Could you tell me more about this model? Whats the story with this movement "Caliber elite 680", has it been used for a long time?
What would be a fair price for this model? The Internet gives me diffrent rates.
I was told that the power reserve is 54hrs, which I really fancy.

Thank you


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## ezcheese (Dec 5, 2008)

The Elite movement was introduced by Zenith in 1994 I believe. It is a very thin and elegant movement with good shock absorption. My Defy Classic Elite has the same 680 SC caliber as the class elite. It keeps very good time and is nice to look at. :-!


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## edmd (Feb 28, 2009)

'WatchTime' compared a zenith with this movement to a jlc for it's featured comparison this month. The zenith elite was accurate to a stunning .7 sec per day ( much better than the jlc). Interestingly enough the author barely made note of this accuracy.


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## ezcheese (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah, I also read that article. I agree that the superior accuracy of the Zenith was just glazed over. Much more time was spent raving about the Zenith deployant clasp!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

The same article was published in the German version (known as "Chronos"). It prompted me to write a reader's letter expressing my extreme disgust at the six points difference between the two watches which makes the closing statement that "the Zenith has, however, performed well in the test and, except for the high price, stays within closing distance" (or words to that effect) rather a mockery. There have been recent tests in which unpolished ETA movements with worse accuracy have been awarded the same number of points! Unfortunately (should I say: as expected?!), the letter was not published but maybe behind the scenes, it might prompt "Chronos"/"Watch Time" to alter their scoring system somewhat. In view of the fact that only slightly improved Rolex watches regularly break the 90% barrier, such an alteration would definitely improve the objectivity of the system.

Hartmut Richter


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## ezcheese (Dec 5, 2008)

I got the feeling that the test was somewhat biased. :roll:


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

ezcheese said:


> I got the feeling that the test was somewhat biased. :roll:


Of course it was biased! These tests are to a certain extent biased by the cash that the respective watchmaking companies deposit in these magazines' bank accounts for advertising. Zenith do advertise in Chronos/Watch Time but less frequently than Rolex. Or Patek Philippe, or Panerai or some others. Mind you, JLC aren't in the forefront of advertisers there either. However, this is the simplest explanation that Rolex regularly passes the 90% mark whereas the highest point score I've so far seen for Zenith is under 85 (and there have been practically no such tests done on Zeniths anyway).o|<|<|<|

Hartmut Richter


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## gunner (Jan 2, 2008)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Of course it was biased! These tests are to a certain extent biased by the cash that the respective watchmaking companies deposit in these magazines' bank accounts for advertising. Zenith do advertise in Chronos/Watch Time but less frequently than Rolex. Or Patek Philippe, or Panerai or some others. Mind you, JLC aren't in the forefront of advertisers there either. However, this is the simplest explanation that Rolex regularly passes the 90% mark whereas the highest point score I've so far seen for Zenith is under 85 (and there have been practically no such tests done on Zeniths anyway).o|<|<|<|
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Have to be careful with those comments Hartmut, fora have ears...! :-x


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## ezcheese (Dec 5, 2008)

I wonder if that particular "Gold standard" article had more to do with proving that the magazine is not biased against JLC. 

Did you see the letter to the editor where the guy was totally calling out the magazine for "slighting" his favorite brand? In fact, the response to that letter to the editor pointed the angry JLC fan in the direction of the Zenith Vs JLC test. :think:


:-d


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

gunner said:


> Have to be careful with those comments Hartmut, fora have ears...! :-x


Well, let them. I am quite willing to enter an objective discussion on the matter. Fact 1 is that the Zenith got six points less and thus entered a range in which watches with ETA movements usually fall. This need not be an insult in its own right but why do other "manufacture" watches not fall so low?! Fact 2 is that there wasn't anything "wrong" with the Zenith (such as badly regulated, poor finissage, uncomfortable to wear). Fact 3 is that one or two points in favour of the Zenith were brushed over or not touched upon, such as the much cheaper version in 37mm case (a lot was made of the fact that the Zenith was much more expensive and that the extra gold content did not warrant such a price difference - this would have been wiped if the 37mm version had been tested instead; why was the bigger watch chosen?!:-s). Also the JLC was patted on the back for the movement conversion to small second, at the same time, the Elite is basically a lepine calibre with in this case a conversion to central second hand - without the need to raise the movement height. No extra points here.:-|

All in all, the whole thing was rather tarnished by subjectivity. I do admit that in view of the brass balance and the regulation by lever rather than free swinging balance, the JLC ought to finish ahead of the Zenith - but definitely not six points! This is what I wrote to Chronos; I would certainly be interested in an objective reply.b-)

Hartmut Richter


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi,

Thanks for your opinions. 

I have worked in media for a few years and I know how these tests are made, generally speaking (not just watches). They can be used as a referance but its a lot of "marketing" behind them.
However, these test matter for the market and add value to the brand. That's why is a lot of advertising money behind them.

coming back to this model I understand that the movement is pretty high standard. any idea how the zeniths keep their value in time?

Cheers


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

I shouldn't answer these question late at night as the answer is complex. First of all, one shouldn't look at watches as an investment. They are jewelry to be worn and enjoyed as such. 

True, there are exceptions. Some Rolex maintain a decent value and sometimes one can sell a Rolex or even a Panerai for more money than they paid for. 

With the rest of the watches, it comes down to like collecting coins. How many were made? What material is in them? How desirable are they? If you are on the wrong side of these questions, the valuation is not that great.

Then again. Years ago, the EP Fly-Back cost about the same as an Omega Speedmaster Professional. Both used, you could get them all day long in the 1600 to 1700 USD range and in mighty fine condition. Try getting the EP FB for that today!

So please, get one because you like the history and the looks. If you want an investment, look at gold. :-d

Dan


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## edmd (Feb 28, 2009)

I also noticed how the authors was hung up on the cost differential, yet noted the larger amount of gold in the zenith. To allow for a true cost comparison, they should have noted how the zenith was cheaper in stainless. 
Also, the zenith did not receive points for using a clasp rather than a buckle. I imagine if the jlc had used a clasp, they would have noted how zenith used a common cheap buckle on an expensive watch rather than the more fashionable and better designed clasp


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

If it comes down to numbers, I certainly fail to see why Rolex watches, which are made in their millions (in almost all cases the models, not the brand!) should kep their value or appreciate. A lot has to do with brand perception by the buyer and Zenith doesn't quite make it (yet). One thing that has to be said for Thierry Nataf - he made some pretty ugly watches but he made watches that attracted attention. If one can build on that, then in conjunction with rarity (I think the annual Zenith output is around 20000, all models; at least it was a few years ago) maybe Zenith will improve their standing and make their models hold value a little better in future.

Hartmut Richter


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Hartmut Richter said:


> maybe Zenith will improve their standing and make their models hold value a little better in future.


Ah but there's the catch Hartmut. If they held their value I doubt if I'd have been able to afford my lovely, lightly used Chronomaster Open that I acquired for about half list. It could put a serious crimp in my buying habits.

There are pros & cons to most things.;-)

Dave


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

D N Ravenna said:


> I shouldn't answer these question late at night as the answer is complex. First of all, one shouldn't look at watches as an investment. They are jewelry to be worn and enjoyed as such.
> 
> True, there are exceptions. Some Rolex maintain a decent value and sometimes one can sell a Rolex or even a Panerai for more money than they paid for.
> 
> ...


Hi Dan,

First, thanks for the reply. To answer your post, Im not necesarily looking for an investment but I d like to make a smart buy if its possible. 
Gold, I wont buy but thanks for the suggestion.  maybe a property...

That's why I posted here to ask for your opinions, get more info about the market and ratings. Some brands, models hold their value better and if Im to spend a few thousand on a watch I want to buy a model that (of course I like and) after I worn it once doesnt loose half of its value.

Its not that I want to make money and sell the watch after a few years its just about buying a watch that holds the value at least. It makes me feel good that the money I paid is still there somehow. 
I wouldnt feel great to pay 10k$ for a watch and know that I can only sell it for 5-6k if I want to. That doesnt mean the watch is not good and nice its just the value aspect that Im talking about here.

Cheers


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

I find this is a really interesting topic. Clearly it is in the interest of the manufacturer to not only maintain demand for the new product but to keep prices in the used market healthy. This is where Rolex has really hit the sweet spot. As Hartmut says it is completely illogical given the mass production of their watches but you can hardly begrudge them their position as many, many years of very clever and expensive marketing lie behind their success.

Panerai, also cleverly, went the other way and restricted availability of new models to keep demand for new and used examples high. This was fine when they were still a 'cult' watch but I sense that that premium in the used market is beginning to slip away from them as they become more mainstream (or maybe it's just the recession, or the new in-house movements coming along).

I guess the main difference between these two brands and Zenith is in the design department. Rolex and Panerai are both very consistent, historically focussed brands design-wise (or boring you could say;-)). Zenith has great movements but otherwise it's the design innovation that marks them out over the years. Maybe this is the problem. If customers for new watches tend to be design-led the focus will inevitably be on new models at the expense of older ones (or 'heritage').

Has the El Primero 40th anniversary been a missed opportunity to reclaim some of that 'heritage' and bring it to the fore? That could only benefit the residual values of the brand. I guess financially the timing was not great for a big marketing push though.

Anyway that's my lunchtime musings over. In the meantime I'll just keep buying 'pre-loved' examples.

Dave


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Gombrich said:


> Has the El Primero 40th anniversary been a missed opportunity to reclaim some of that 'heritage' and bring it to the fore?


I think not - they are bringing out a series of Vintage EPs - which look almost exactly like the old ones and, more importantly these days (where a TAG Heuer Autavia or Breitling Chronomatic copy is just an ETA 2892 with dial side module and the crown placed strategically on the left side), also the [almost] original calibre! Also, the decision to scrap the hideous versions with vertical stripe on the dial was probably correct. What more do you want?!;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Granted, the Anniversary range is good (I agree about the stripey ones though) but I was thinking more about profile raising outside the watch world i.e. advertising, sponsorship or similar. Something to give a bit of lustre to the brand as it is perceived by the broader public. 

Dave


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## Sgian Dubh (Mar 7, 2007)

Earlier this week, I went into an AD to look at JLC Master Control watches. Indeed, there were some very nice pieces.

However, the watch that drew my attention the most was a Zenith Elite Moonphase Grande Date. The nice thing about the Zenith was the price saving over the JLC, which was in the thousands. And, while I'm no expert, cosmetically, the only thing that really struck me as less quality on the Zenith was the leather strap, which wasn't as nice or soft as the one on the JLC. Clasps were roughly equivalent and both were comfortable.

Incidentally, while talking to the owner of the store, who I know quite well, he was pretty honest about resale value and confirmed that, for the most part, you'd only recover about 50% of the watch's value. That was true of both Zentih and JLC, though there are certain models that hold their value better than others. Really, stick to Rolex or Patek if you're looking to get your money back.

I'm now seriously considering the Zenith. My hesitation has to do with the movements. The JLC movements are a tad more refined, but I also know enough to realize that, in practical terms, it won't make much difference for daily wear. That said, if the Zenith had the El Primero movement, I wouldn't be hesitating. Hey, we all have challenges in life!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

The Zenith movement a tad less refined?! I'd have to look at the specific one in question and I know that the older versions weren't really polished up. At the same time, the "Chronos" test demonstrated to me that the Zenith is, if anything, superior. The whole structure looks less angular and "industrial" and on top of that, you get a guilloche pattern, solid 22K rotor. What more do you want?;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Tough call for someone like me to make!:-d

I have the older version of the JLC Master Moon (the current model just does not cut it IMO). The older version of the MM pays hommage to earlier watches in the way the dial is laid out. It also has a very exquisite movement.

For me, the Zenith doesn't fare as well because it is more modern looking. The dial is more or less assymetrical. The moon is silver not gold. Sorry, but unless your are wearing a Temption, the moons in watches are gold covered.

Also, while I could not find a price on it, other prices I saw makes me believe it will be closer to the JLC to make it a harder decision.

True, this model is rather attractive given some of the past pieces. But for an old fuddy-duddy like me, it does not hit the mark.

I am not going to address the movement as in my opinion, they are close enough to not worry about it.

Cheers!

Dan


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## Sgian Dubh (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for your responses.

The movement inside the Zenith I was looking at has the Elite 691.

In steel, the moon is, indeed, silver. In gold, the moon is gold.

There's better write-ups available, but you can look at what the watch looks like here in both steel and gold: Link.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Sgian Dubh,
Take a look at your link. It does not seem to work. You may be able to edit it work. :-!

Hopefully, I was not too critical about the moon. I like moonphase watches, but almost all have a gold-colored moon no matter what the case material is. Kind of like tradition.

Either way, it is still a nice watch!

Dan


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## Sgian Dubh (Mar 7, 2007)

I didn't mean to provide a broken link. What a bell-end!

Give it a go now. It should work. And, if not, here are the watches:

















To be honest, I've never paid that much attention to the colour of the moon. And, one of my favourite watches -- the Glashutte Original PanomaticLunar, has the moon in silver colour, if you opt for the steel-cased option:


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks for the link and pictures. But I agree with Dan - the moonphase looks better in gold. I love my Chronomaster SS with silver dial - and one of the reasons is the touch of colour towards the bottom! That Eite in rose gold does look superb. If only I had the cash.....("Sniff!")

Hartmut Richter


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## jwsoule (Jul 28, 2009)

I just saw the steel version this weekend at an AD in Carmel. It looked amazing especially for the MSRP, 6600 steel. The actual watch differs from the pictures as Zenith choose to use a different textured dial (clos de Paris) IMHO, this is a great price for what you get: Big Date, moonphase, thin automatic movement. 

Very classic and a good size (39-40mm I think) I think the gold moon on the steel version would have been a nice touch, but the silver moon looked very good.


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## ezcheese (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree, it's a really great looking watch, and I love the Lange-style big date. :-!


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## BenL (Oct 1, 2008)

Welcome to WUS, Verdi. Looks like there is a lot of good discussion going on in this thread. Good luck with your hunt. :-!


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Thanks for reposting the pictures! While I like some of the GO's, the one you posted is just awful. I am sorry, but clock/watch faces tend to beg for symmetry. I guess I am old fashioned.

The gold elite is quite attractive!

I am behind on my prices, but it would seem to me that you could get a Master Moon at close to the same price as the SS Elite (after AD discounts and the like). Then again, I may be wrong. 

These are nice watches!

Dan


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your opinions guys. Really helpfull. I hope this disscusion will help others as well.
I ll wait to buy a Zenith for now. The next watch on my list is a Panerai and than an Elite. 

Cheers


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## Sgian Dubh (Mar 7, 2007)

Watches are definitely a personal choice, so no need for apologies.

In my neck of the woods, after discount, there's about a $3000 CDN savings, if you buy an Elite Moon over the Master Moon (both in stainless steel). The watches are only sold at one AD in town, so it makes shopping around difficult.

Honestly, I went in to look at JLCs, but the Zenith won me over, especially for the price. (With the savings, I could buy another decent watch!) I just haven't been able to learn much about the Elite movements.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Nice savings. At that level, I wougo for the Zenith as well!

:-!

Dan


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Im bringing this thread back to life with a question regarding the model I asked about in the first post. 

I went to a Zenith boutique the other day and asked more info about the watch. I was surprised to find out that the movt is not COSC certified and the guy told me that very few Zenith models hv the COSC certification. 
Why? Is Zenith not interested in this? Im sure their movements are good enough for COSC.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Verdi said:


> Im bringing this thread back to life with a question regarding the model I asked about in the first post.
> 
> I went to a Zenith boutique the other day and asked more info about the watch. I was surprised to find out that the movt is not COSC certified and the guy told me that very few Zenith models hv the COSC certification.
> Why? Is Zenith not interested in this? Im sure their movements are good enough for COSC.


You are quite correct on both counts. Zenith have no interest in getting all their watches tested - unlike the big R, Breitling and perhaps some others. This helps them make a distinction between their higher quality, more exclusive COSC tested watches and their general run-of-the-mill watches - which are still good and exclusive enough! At the same time, you are also correct in stating that all of their watches would probably pass the test. There isn't a single in-house Zenith movement (except perhaps the ladies movements) that hasn't at some stage been tested and has passed the test. And that in spite of the fact that only one wrist watch movement was specifically designed to achieve highest accuracy (Cal. 135, of course). All others were designed to be serially produced and cased in general output models.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

COSC no longer carries as much menaing IMO. Used to be, a watch with a COSC cert was a real time keeper. Now-a-days, they are so well made, that one is hard pressed to find even a $60 Seiko 5 that won't hold to those specs.

It is a nice to know/nice to have thing, but I no longer think differently if the watch does not come with the cert. Get a watch you really want on your wrist! 

Cheers!

Dan


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## damonbecker (Apr 15, 2008)

Verdi said:


> Im bringing this thread back to life with a question regarding the model I asked about in the first post.
> 
> I went to a Zenith boutique the other day and asked more info about the watch. I was surprised to find out that the movt is not COSC certified and the guy told me that very few Zenith models hv the COSC certification.
> Why? Is Zenith not interested in this? Im sure their movements are good enough for COSC.


One of the reasons I really appreciate Zenith is the fact that they have won over 1500 awards for accuracy...more than Rolex, Patek, or any other watch manufacturer. Also, they don't have to add any additional words to "chronometre" on their dials.

Damon


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi guys,

I cant belive Im posting here after a good four yrs but in fact I am.
i didnt buy any Zenith meanwhile. At the moment I own an Omega PO, a Panerai and a few others for diving and sports.

well, the ideea of getting a Zenith came again as Im looking for a dressy watch to wear for certain ocasions. Both PO and Panerai are not best suited to be worn with a suit imo.
so, Im looking for a Zenith but I would like a gold one since this is probably gonna be the last watch I buy. 
This is the model I like is this one
Zenith Class Elite HW for $ 6,500 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

Also facy the ideea of a JLC Reverso. The plain model.
Grande Reverso Ultra Thin | Luxury watches | Jaeger-LeCoultre E-boutique
this one comes on rose gold and Im not very keen on that tone. I like the steel better, I wish they would hve it in white gold. Is there an older model that looks the same and is made pf white gold?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

That's an early Nataf model. A Grande Class HW when they were still making that movement (nowadays, I think they only make automatics). A nice watch and very decent since it's a gold model and going at that price. The JLC is also nice but more expensive despite a steel case so no doubt about which is the better bargain. Still, get the watch that makes you smile. Good luck in your decision.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hartmut Richter said:


> That's an early Nataf model. A Grande Class HW when they were still making that movement (nowadays, I think they only make automatics). A nice watch and very decent since it's a gold model and going at that price. The JLC is also nice but more expensive despite a steel case so no doubt about which is the better bargain. Still, get the watch that makes you smile. Good luck in your decision.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


As Hartmut says, get the watch that makes you smile. At the prices you are looking at, it had better do that!

Cheers,

Dan


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Very true. I like the Zenith better, hope I can find what I want since that model's not made anymore.

so, is that zenith from the link not an automatic? 
Early Nataf means 2002-3 model?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

No, it is hand wound - it says "HW" on the dial.

Hartmut Richter


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## Verdi (Aug 10, 2009)

Hmmm,, thats not so good. Im after an automatic. I already have a hw pam so dont want ti spend more time hwing watches.


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## exoticwatches (Feb 2, 2013)

exact reason why I donot invest in Panerais anymore ...as the Automatics hav started feeling too bulky on my wrists .... prefer the ultra thins now ...


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## john111 (Dec 11, 2013)

To be honest I did not know Zenith made such elite and graceful watches I only had known about them as a company that makes TV's


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

The zenith elite class 6 is a very high quality caliber very comparable to jlc calibre 889/899 and it is also very reliable and accurate.


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## Longjean (Jun 30, 2012)

Zenith Class Elite HW for $.6,500 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

I don't think that I could live with a watch which has two "12s" on its dial. I know that misprinted stamps are valuable but this looks just wrong at any price.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Ouch! Yes, you're right - in general, these things only rocket value-wise if the base model appreciates. If it was a Rolex, someone would kill for it, but with this watch, I fear that the speculating buyer will in the long term be disappointed.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Longjean said:


> Zenith Class Elite HW for $.6,500 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24
> 
> I don't think that I could live with a watch which has two "12s" on its dial. I know that misprinted stamps are valuable but this looks just wrong at any price.


One has to wonder how it got there. It's not like one dot versus two dots. This has to be a practical joke that left the plant when it shouldn't have.

Dan


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