# The finest handwind movement of all time?



## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I love movements and so it was with real excitement that I picked up what can only be described as a minor grail immediately before I went away. It wasn't expensive, but I knew precisely what I wanted and I wasn't prepared to pay for it! I finally found one at the right price in Hiroshima, of all places. I'm very excited! In fact, despite the fact that I picked up two Certinas NOS in Malta and promised to write up my misadventures, I'm going to write a bit about this little beauty first.

My favourite movement of all is, and has been for many years, the Smiths Cal.89. Is it the best? Sadly, probably not. It may be a shade better that the Cal.30T2, but it is certainly eclipsed by the Cal.601 family. There are many other calibres by Longines, Certina, Rolex and JLC that I really like and think are contenders. Each of these movements has a case for being considered as good as its peers.

However there is another handwind movement that I believe trumps them all: the Seiko 45xx series. This series include some of the movements that called time on the Neuchatel observatory competitions when, in 1967, Seiko took second, fourth, fifth, sixth seventh and eighth place. This also got the Japanese banned from COSC. So apart from the fact that this is one of the Japanese movements that helped almost mortally wound the Swiss in early seventies, it also has wonderfully consistent finishing and case hardening (I'm told). This is a movement that was designed to beat the best the Swiss had at the time. The best the Swiss had was very very good and yet I think it did.










Just look at it!

Here's the equivalent Rolex offering for comparison:










This one is from 1970, before Seiko automated and stopped hand building their movements and yet it looks utterly contemporary to me: the balance bridge, fine adjuster and incredibly sharp finish could all come from a new watch and yet this is forty years from the factory. The other minor detail is that it beats ten times a second, over a third as fast again as the Cal.2500C and has shock protection on the escapement as well as the balance! I don't know about the service history of this one, but it hasn't dropped a second since I picked it up this morning and sounds more like a sewing machine than a watch.

I believe that there is often a relationship between beautiful movements and beautiful watches; Seiko provide a bit more evidence for this idea:










Yes, that's clearly a perfect raised sapphire, in a _1970 _watch. Likewise, the big sculpted crown and sharp angular lugs look thirty years ahead of their time.










While I have been looking for one of these I have been constantly struck by both how contemporary and how unique the style is. It's just a beautiful watch.










I'm not quite sure why my first instinct was to pop it on a NATO strap, but I think it looks glorious!










Possibly better on a black strap though?


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

Just beautiful. :-! I think I need t look for one of these.


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## Dixan (Oct 10, 2009)

Nice write-up and cool watch! That movement really is beautiful. Looks like you got a clean one too. |>


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## Hippocampus (Jan 7, 2007)

I've been watching these King Seikos on ebay for a while... Before always asking myself whether I'd rather shell out for one of these or get another Constellation. And the answer's always been Constellation, despite the fact that these were obviously designed to compete directly with Constellations and look quite similar (







C case Constellation?), and both the Seikos and Connies are incredibly good looking.

Though after seeing yours I may go ahead and start after one of these now... And given I've been learning Japanese over the last 2 years I'd love one with a day date that had the day in kanji.

Love the onyx (?) inlaid markers on yours, and the dauphine hands. I'd keep it on black leather too, given that (the analogy works in my mind) I'd never put a nato on a Constellation :-d


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## Joe K. (Sep 9, 2007)

If one pays attention to various Japanese art forms, such as woodblock printing, you can see the complete dedication to details. My guess is this is very much a cultural phenomena which is inherent to many forms of Japanese expression, including industrial products? Any members from Japan care to comment?


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## GaryF (Dec 18, 2009)

What a gorgeous machine! And, as always, an education.

Gary


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## jbdan (Aug 14, 2008)

Just w0w! Splendid write up, I'm a big Japanese/Seiko watch fan, and the pictures are beautiful. Always a joyful read thx


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## hiro1963 (Feb 4, 2008)

Joe K. said:


> If one pays attention to various Japanese art forms, such as woodblock printing, you can see the complete dedication to details. My guess is this is very much a cultural phenomena which is inherent to many forms of Japanese expression, including industrial products? Any members from Japan care to comment?


Joe, I think you said it all and you said it well lol! Of course, I don't know why they are into details though. But, they are picky! That's for sure. :-d

Anyway, very nice KS! Looks great on NATO too indeed.


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## ulackfocus (Oct 17, 2008)

Nice pick-up Matt! These 60's and 70's Japanese movements are too often overlooked and always undervalued.


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## johnnierocco (Oct 7, 2009)

That is a beautiful watch. Wear it in good health. 

Many people, sadly do not give Seiko their proper due credit. They build some of the best movements and finest watches in the world, at any price point. 

The Grand Seiko's are easily as good as anything coming out of Switzerland and they are not nearly as expensive, though they are are far from inexpensive either. They represent a great value in horology and deserve their place in it.


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## Chev James (Apr 13, 2009)

M4tt;2893526This one is from 1970 said:


> Amazing! This watch was truly ahead of its time, and seems to have features that are missing on some of our finest watches today! Great find and description . . .
> 
> . . . now, if you will kindly situate yourself at the stake, we'll light the tinder! :-d


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## NMGE17 (Feb 9, 2006)

Stunning pick-up and fascinating read :-!

Nigel


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Cheers all. I'm ecstatic to report that, having worn it overnight, it has lost about a second. Either way, it is still going in for a service (if it needs it, I'm starting to think it may have been serviced) It may have 25 jewels but a beat rate of 36,000 needs to be treated with a bit of respect.

Having slept on it I suddenly thought that it was almost identical to a Seiko I bought new a year or two ago:










It's a mm larger all round and a tiny bit curvier. Suddenly Seiko feel almost as conservative as Rolex!


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## AAP (Sep 10, 2007)

I think that a lot of what people find so attractive in the previous Aqua Terra model (non teak dial) is here as well. Beefy crown and simple enough to go with any mood (dress up or down). And I agree that the movement looks brand new, both in terms of condition and design. Very nice snag, Matt.


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## jbdan (Aug 14, 2008)

Timeless SCVS001 that has now been axed from Seiko's catalog and discontinued there are still several left though. I like the Spirit line... a lot for your $ I got my sarb021 a while back still timeless imo in a more modern way, but with a twist on hand and case design. 6r15 is a bugger to calibrate so I'm told, but happily mine runs at COSC specs.


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## modyblu (May 3, 2009)

An enjoyable read. I'm a big Seiko fan, especially their Grand Series and most of their dive watches. I'm longing for a Marinemaster.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I love those hands - they are a bit like the old Bulova ones but nicer. As for regulating it the problem is simply that you simply push to regulate and it is difficult to do it finely enough. I find that if you fix the movement and work through a 10x loupe it isn't too bad. It's a lovely stable movement. I have no idea why Seiko stopped making them as they are fantastic watches.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

good thread m4tt:-!
I will add some movements worth of recommandation
Alpina Grüen 117
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&Alpina_117








Alpina 331-338
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Alpina_338








Alpina 420
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Alpina_420








Alpina 753
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Alpina_753









I will add other pics tomorrow.
http://www.ranfft.de/bidfun/katb/2uswk/Alpina_338.jpg


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

Have to agree about the Seiko movements in the Grand and King lines.

These are both "low" beat but

The 3180 is also amazing










As of course is the ultimate incarnation the 5722










Triple shock protection on non-balance jewels!


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)




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## jbdan (Aug 14, 2008)

So m4tt....I'm not a collector or a movement guru, but this/your thread got me to thinking....are all the 45XX movements gems? I'm looking at a 4520A GS click here and it's intrigued me somewhat I must say.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Jbdan

Any of the 45 series are pretty good - the later the better to my mind - look for the ones with gold rather than orange inlay. You need to be careful as both the barrel and escapement can wear due to the 10 BPS. the barrel because the spring is quite chunky and the lateral torque is quite large and the balance/escapement because they are chittering away at quite a rate. In short, avoid non runners except for spares. 

They are superbly well made but under a lot of stress and forty plus years old. 

Sherwoodscwartz

Yes, I thought of that lovely Hamilton, I'm still looking btw when I said that. I think you know what I think of those!

Blue prince 

I have a couple of that movement family but not in quite that high spec. They are lovely and I certainly have an eye out for any of them. 

Georges

Why the Alpina in particular - it looks quite an old design to my eye. I'm sure you will be able to explain. There are a couple of FL that I think might compete too though.


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## jbdan (Aug 14, 2008)

Thx much m4tt!


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

i apologize for the lack of commentary to my post. it certainly gives a poor impression.

i was just throwing the hamilton into the mix of wonderful movements shown.

the seiko movement is absolutely lovely. i take great joy in pointing out the 982m and elgin 760 to folks who may not know of the excellent tradition of US watchmaking, but sadly, i am ignorant of japanese horology and ashamed of this fact. i knew that seiko had produced some amazing timepieces, but i really don't know where to go to find the necessary history to educate myself.

i imagine that the king seikos are highly collectible. my self-imposed collecting limit has been reached, so the only thing i have that i could part with to make room is this:










and i'm not sure i'm quite ready to let it go. but that seiko is nice...


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## Kefru (May 2, 2009)

Hi 

What about the 321, 861 and the 1861 movements? - these seem not to have been mentioned so far. 

Although I must admit bias since I will be picking up my Speedmaster 3570 at the end of the month


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> What about the 321, 861 and the 1861 movements? - these seem not to have been mentioned so far.


Simply that I was talking about simple handwind movements, not handwind chronographs.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Georges
> 
> Why the Alpina in particular - it looks quite an old design to my eye. I'm sure you will be able to explain. There are a couple of FL that I think might compete too though.


The older Alpina design were of the highest quality kinda like the vintage Hamilton and Waltham movements that were used in rail road pocket watches.
Continuation of my previous posts of what are the greatest watch handwound movements
bulova 10 ae
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_10AE








bulova 10 ak
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_10AK








bulova 10 bl
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_10BL








bulova 11ab/abc
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_11ABC








bullova 11bl
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Bulova_11BL








büren 280
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Buren_280








büren 380
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Buren_380








certina 19-10
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_19_10








certina 19-25
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_19_25








certina 23-14
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_23_14








certina 23-20
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_23_20








certina 23-36
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_23_36








certina 25-35
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_25_35








certina 25-66
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_25_66








certina 304
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_304








certina 320
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_320








certina 321
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_321








certina 324
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Certina_324








cortebert 599
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Cortebert_599








cyma 162
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Cyma_162








cyma 335
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Cyma_334








cyma 458
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Cyma_458








I will post other pics of other movements tomorrow.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Georges, while I am impressed by your productivity, I'm not sure that you are doing justice to the idea of '_the best_'. This is beginning to feel like the Dodo Bird in Alice in Wonderland who pronounced that 'all have won and all have had prizes'.

I will even go as far as disagreeing with you. I was talking about the *best of all time *not the best of a some point in the past. So I would disallow any that have a temperature compensated balance wheel rather than glycadur, simply because, without the sort of preparation that is uneconomical in an ordinary watch, they simply wouldn't be stable enough. Stability is everything.

The Seiko would without doubt beat them hollow. Remember this was a movement with a *guaranteed *factory spec of *less than two seconds a day* for two years after sale. If you are offering serious competition that is the sort of excellence you are chasing.

For the same reason I would disallow any that merely have a 'stick' adjuster; they are not even *trying *to be the best.

That just leaves the Certina. everyting else may well be robust and beautiful but it simply isn't even designed to be stable or accurate enough before you start to think about the innards.

As it happens I disagree about the Certina for a different reason. To be the best I would expect you to post the best of a movement range and you haven't. For pure timekeeping I would argue that the 25 series was eclipsed by the far rarer 28 series.

However, I own one:










and, while it is a lovely movement, it simply isn't as good as the Seiko. Notice the lack of shock protection on the balance for example or the rather rudimentary regulator. That's before you get to the fact that it only beats at half the rate of the 36,000. I think the Hamiltons are probably the most serious competition offered so far.

However I really can't think that any handwind movements of the period that offer a serious timekeeping challenge without serious, and largely impractical, fettling. To look for real competition you have to look at far more recent offerings such as this:

http://www.thepurists.com/watch/features/8ohms/3090/index.html

The FSB is a serious advantage. I can't think of one but does anyone know if Elgin ever put an FSB into one of their hand winds? Given Elgin's obsession with perfection that would be an interesting candidate.

However, Georges, rather than giving a long list of movements you like why not try to think of one or two which you think may actually be better.


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

m4tt, how stupid of me.

the elgin 730a is a handwind, fsb movement. a very very fine movement. generally ignored by those who feel that the finish is too spartan this movement deserves far more respect than it gets. this crappy picture is from a fantastic elgin historical page:










it really doesn't do the movement justice. it was highly adjusted and one of, if not the first, wrist movement to qualify for rail service in the US. it was housed in this:










if you remain interested, and i'm betting you will be, read up on the elgins here:

http://trusted-forwarder.org/elgin/history/fm.html

edit: there are several other hand-wind fsb elgin calibers. i beleive ranfft has a complete listing.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

That's the problem with your posts, Sherwoodschwartz, every time you post it costs me money. Actually, I found precisely one of these for sale for around $500, but on the way I have been utterly diverted by the Elgin 680 movement in what looks like ungilded but immaculately finished invar.


__
https://flic.kr/p/76251985

Love at first sight!


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## Bondtoys (Jul 21, 2008)

coming back to the initial question, my favourite :-!


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

M4tt said:


> That's the problem with your posts, Sherwoodschwartz, every time you post it costs me money. Actually, I found precisely one of these for sale for around $500, but on the way I have been utterly diverted by the Elgin 680 movement in what looks like ungilded but immaculately finished invar.
> 
> 
> __
> ...


yes, the bw raymonds are pricey. unfortunately for me, i mis-timed an auction for a 730a that was living in a us steel presentation case. it went for 30 dollars. i am attempting to kick myself still, but am getting older and can't seem to bend that way.

your 680 picture has me dumbfounded- which in and of itself is not unusual, but i thought i had seen most derivations of the elgin movements. i can't tell whether it's a trick of lighting, or a special finish on the plates. i am not aware of any elgin that used invar in this way, but the world of horology always offers up surprises. and yes, they always cost me money, bless them.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Georges, while I am impressed by your productivity, I'm not sure that you are doing justice to the idea of '_the best_'. This is beginning to feel like the Dodo Bird in Alice in Wonderland who pronounced that 'all have won and all have had prizes'.
> 
> I will even go as far as disagreeing with you. I was talking about the *best of all time *not the best of a some point in the past. So I would disallow any that have a temperature compensated balance wheel rather than glycadur, simply because, without the sort of preparation that is uneconomical in an ordinary watch, they simply wouldn't be stable enough. Stability is everything.
> 
> ...


Good afternoon Matthew.

The seiko series of movements were never officially certified chronometers and nor were they observatory chronometric competition winners. The handwound calibres that have won the biggest number of chronometric competitions are the 30t2, the zenith 135 and the rolex hunter. Plus in France and in Switzerland not many watchmakers and watch collectors view seiko as a high range brand but just as a middle of the range brand, if Seiko was so good it would be on the same standpoint in terms of quality and prestige than Rolex or IWC, but it is not. Plus spare parts for vintage Seiko are a real pain in the ass to find. Very few qualified watchmakers if almost none does their restoration in France. It is also the reason why I will never buy a Seiko.
Regarding Hamilton, a lot of their movements were just rebadged eta movements: Hamilton 60 (ETA 2390),Hamilton 61 (ETA 2391),Hamilton 62 (ETA 2406),Hamilton 231 (ETA 2412) and Hamilton 232 (ETA 2413). An eta movement in the past was regarded as something very middle of the range movement and for me it still is an average quality movement.
Several handwound movements that were made by some no more existing brands, no more existing ebauches manufactures or brands that are not manufactures anymore were exceptional in terms of accuracy, reliability fit and finish.
I am listing a whole range of movements that are worthy of recognition and collectibility and which are far more desirable than the basic middle of the range crap eta ebauches like the 6498 or the peseux 7001 found in some +2000$ watches.
So here is the continuation of the list
enicar 1012
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Enicar_1012








enicar 1120
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Enicar_1120








enicar 1140
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Enicar_1140








enicar 1160
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Enicar_1160








enicar 1292
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Enicar_1292








favre leuba 252
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Favre-Leuba_252








fef 290
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&FEF_290








felsa 294
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Felsa_294








hamilton 980
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Hamilton_980








hamilton 982
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Hamilton_982








hamilton 986
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Hamilton_986A








IWC 401
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&IWC_401








IWC 422
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&IWC_422








IWC 83
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&IWC_83








Junghans cal 81
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Junghans_681_70








Junghans cal 82
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Junghans_682_70








Junghans cal 84
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Junghans_684_10








Junghans cal 85
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Junghans_685_00








le coultre 464
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&LeCoultre_464








I will continue tomorrow.


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

"Regarding Hamilton, a lot of their movements were just rebadged eta movements: Hamilton 60 (ETA 2390),Hamilton 61 (ETA 2391),Hamilton 62 (ETA 2406),Hamilton 231 (ETA 2412) and Hamilton 232 (ETA 2413). An eta movement in the past was regarded as something very middle of the range movement and for me it still is an average quality movement."

i will politely disagree that 5 hamilton calibers qualify as "a lot". i can name 25 or so wrist calibers alone made in the US. these were not rebadged ETA movements, and to so stunningly dismiss the history of the brand is silly at best, ignorant at worst. what's odd is you actually include a few hamilton calibers in your post. perhaps some more research would behoove you.

"Plus in France and in Switzerland not many watchmakers and watch collectors view seiko as a high range brand but just as a middle of the range brand, if Seiko was so good it would be on the same standpoint in terms of quality and prestige than Rolex or IWC, but it is not."

well, it's unfortunate for the rest of the world that the good opinion of the french and swiss is not so easily bestowed.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

sherwoodschwartz said:


> "Regarding Hamilton, a lot of their movements were just rebadged eta movements: Hamilton 60 (ETA 2390),Hamilton 61 (ETA 2391),Hamilton 62 (ETA 2406),Hamilton 231 (ETA 2412) and Hamilton 232 (ETA 2413). An eta movement in the past was regarded as something very middle of the range movement and for me it still is an average quality movement."
> 
> i will politely disagree that 5 hamilton calibers qualify as "a lot". i can name 25 or so wrist calibers alone made in the US. these were not rebadged ETA movements, and to so stunningly dismiss the history of the brand is silly at best, ignorant at worst. what's odd is you actually include a few hamilton calibers in your post. perhaps some more research would behoove you.
> 
> ...


Hi

I know that hamilton made some nice pocket watches and handwound movements like the Hamilton 4992B, the Hamilton 53, the Hamilton 54, the Hamilton 721, the Hamilton 730, the Hamilton 757, the Hamilton 916, the Hamilton 917, the Hamilton 921, the Hamilton 923, the Hamilton 982M and the Hamilton 995A.
But quite a number of their automatics were eta rebadged movements like the Hamilton 74 (ETA 2522),the Hamilton 73 (ETA 2520),the Hamilton 694A (ETA 2472), the Hamilton 64A (ETA 2452),the Hamilton 64 (ETA 2452),the Hamilton 63A (ETA 2451),the Hamilton 63 (ETA 2451),the Hamilton 624 (ETA 2522) and the Hamilton 623 (ETA 2520). The other series of their automatic movements were using the büren base with the micro rotor.
Elgin also did some very nice pocket watches movement and good handwound movements (even if the finish of their latest and last handwound movements is very pedestrian). Let's list them:the Elgin 116, the Elgin 151, the Elgin 187, the Elgin 191, the Elgin 192, the Elgin 197, the Elgin 200, the Elgin 210, the Elgin 237, the Elgin 260, the Elgin 444, the Elgin 450, the Elgin 519, the Elgin 543, the Elgin 670, the Elgin 680 and the Elgin 711. The matte finish on the Elgin handwound movements made in the 30's-40's is what turned me off, plus the fact that spare parts are rare and scarce as hen's teeth is also what poses me a problem when I want to have a watch restored proprely. I am not denying that America did very well until the 60's-70's in terms of watchmaking but after that, long gone was the glorious era of the American watch brands.

The price of a seiko watch is not the same than a rolex, iwc or omega watch, so it is obvious that the buyers these manufacturers target aren't the same. The grand seiko sales are nearly non existant in Europe, the sales of the grand seiko are marginal in the USA and it is only in Japan that grand seiko sell like hot cakes, otherwise these watches have a pretty limited market. There are several reasons for that the key swis brands have established themselves a long time ago, through marketing , communication and quality of their movements which was well known
through Europe. 
Also Seiko is more an attractively priced quality middle of the range watch rather than a top tier brand watch. I don't know how many watchmakers are fan of Seiko but for the ones I know, they are definitely not fans of Seiko and don't view the brand as something special or exceptional.

Have a good saturday.

best regards

georges


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## RON in PA (Sep 11, 2007)

Georges,
Re: Hamilton movements. They never made automatic movements in Lancaster and yes, they used imported Swiss auto movements from ETA, Certina and Buren in automatic wrist watches of the 1950s and 1960s. Perhaps their best manual wrist watch movement was the 770 22 jewel 12/0 size movement of 1955 with Incabloc protection. The 770 was made until 1970 to the tune of 310,000 pieces. Also some of the manual Hamilton movements you list are Swiss in origin and not Lancaster movemnts.

As far as the Swiss, when Seiko beat them in chronometer competition the wonderful Swiss changed the rules, closing the door to future Japanese competition. The Swiss are all about marketing and cash.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Georges, I am afraid you are simply factually incorrect on at least two of your assertions and several of your other claims are a little suspect.

First. The claim that no Seiko has ever had COSC chronometer status is simply false. Here's a couple for a start.

http://www.roachman.com/private.html

Just search google or even ebay with the search terms 'Seiko' and 'chronometer' to see many many more. 
However, your assertion that Seiko never won at Neuchatel is true: they competed from 1964 until 1967 when, as I stated earlier, they took nearly all of the positions from two through to eight. Omega came first. For some reason, Seiko were banned thereafter.

Second, unlike Rolex who simply will not offer any spares support outside of their dealer network. For example I have a handwind Rolex which I have simply been unable to source a crown tube for in two years. The KS featured above needed a new (and rather complex) crown tube which was sourced in about half an hour. Seiko always go out of their way to be helpful. In the UK they work in partnership with these guys. :

http://www.vintageseikorepair.co.uk./

To keep vintage watches on the road. Personally, I have always found Seiko UK incredibly helpful when looking for vintage parts and I have yet to have found a problem with service or repair.



> Plus in France and in Switzerland not many watchmakers and watch collectors view seiko as a high range brand but just as a middle of the range brand, if Seiko was so good it would be on the same standpoint in terms of quality and prestige than Rolex or IWC, but it is not.


Prestige maybe as this is a matter of sentiment and the Swiss are very good at advertising, however the quality of Seiko's output speaks for itself:

http://www.ninanet.net/watches/others03/Mediums/mgseiko.html

http://www.timezone.com/library/rdnotebook/200607314159

just to pick two of many many examples from the net. There really is no excuse for such ignorance in France and Switzerland! Likewise, if you Google '*réparation de Seiko*' you get a mere 24,000 hits while '*restauration de Seiko' *gets a mere 13,000.* Is that what you mean by: 
*


> Very few qualified watchmakers if almost none does their restoration in France.?


In short you seem to be *Seiko *blind.

As for cutting and pasting half the content of Ranfft onto WUS. The question is not who can collect the most pictures of random movements, it is what is the best handwind movement.

Could you pick a single handwind movement and actually make a case for it?


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

You are quite right Georges, Rolex are not in the same price bracket as Seiko. For example, this Seiko:

http://www.credor.com/news/newmodel/gbbx998.html

costs half a million pounds.

How much is the priciest Rolex?

When I say Seiko make watches for *every *sector, I mean *every *sector.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Georges, I am afraid you are simply factually incorrect on at least two of your assertions and several of your other claims are a little suspect.
> 
> First. The claim that no Seiko has ever had COSC chronometer status is simply false. Here's a couple for a start.
> 
> ...


good morning M4tt

It is impossible to limit yourself to one good handwound movement because several from some great manufactures were built. Seiko France is not Seiko UK , there is no vintage source parts like in the UK. Any skilled watchmaker in France and in Switzerland can do a basic service and accuracy adjustment with a Seiko, but for spare parts for a vintage seiko that is where the problems lies in. There is a seiko boutique in the champs elysess taht opened in 2008 or 2009, a friend of mine brought a seiko that belang to his father, and the boutique told him that they didn't have the spare parts to repair it.
Also the numbers of the seiko as certified chronometers was pretty small as compared to OMEGA and ROLEX watches which were counting the biggest number of official certified chronometers in the 60's-70's.I am not even sure that the Grand Seiko with the chronometer title passed the Bureau Officiel Suisse de contrôle des chronomètres (predecessor of the cosc) tests. As far as I read somewhere, they were tested by the Japanese equivalent of the Bureau Officiel de Contrôle des Chronomètres.
What may be good for you, may not be good for me. I am not Seiko blind but their watches are absolutely not worth of my interest however good they might be. I would rather spend my money on a vintage longines or a vintage zodiac than on a seiko. But everyone is different and tastes are different too.
This is not about cutting and pasting pictures M4tt, but make people aware that there are several possible good choices in terms of handwound movements.

just my two cents

best regards

georges


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

The information about Seiko's performance in Swiss chronometer competitions is a matter of historical record; just Google it.



> There is a seiko boutique in the champs elysess taht opened in 2008 or 2009, a friend of mine brought a seiko that belang to his father, and the boutique told him that they didn't have the spare parts to repair it.


And the same thing would happen at Goldsmiths in the UK. However, Google shows spares and repairs for Seiko are ubiquitous in France



> their watches are absolutely not worth of my interest *however good they might be*.


Enough said really.


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## jbdan (Aug 14, 2008)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am not Seiko blind but their watches are absolutely not worth of my interest however good they might be.
> best regards
> 
> georges


This is a shared sentiment all over the world. It's kind of sad, but at the same time it's OK. After all these are just watches, a fun and addicting passion beheld by a most diverse crowd with even more diverse tastes.

This thread has "learned me" (Southern term sorry couldn't resist :-d) a lot thanks for all the knowledge guys!


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> The information about Seiko's performance in Swiss chronometer competitions is a matter of historical record; just Google it.
> 
> And the same thing would happen at Goldsmiths in the UK. However, Google shows spares and repairs for Seiko are ubiquitous in France
> 
> Enough said really.


Good evening M4tt:

I have googled the 24900 results one by one on the french google page with the search "réparation and restauration de seiko". A lot of results are off topic. However I did find three answers corresponding to
HORLOGERIE BIANCHI : 4 place Gabriel Péri 13001 Marseille // Tél. : 04 91 90 56 05 - Fax : 04 91 56 69 75
L'Atelier 29, Rue Lévis - 75017
LA CLEPSYDE Tél: 01 43 10 24 27 ou 06 46 11 40 01
A lot of the other results I had were the adresses of seiko authorized dealers not restorers not repairers. 
That makes three watchmakers being able and supposed to restore seiko without problems. :roll::think:
Seiko is very present thanks to quartz watches on several european markets but when it comes to the top tier mechanical and hig hend watches they are nearly not existant. The biggest sold names in terms of watches in the top tier brand are Rolex, Omega and Breitling certainly not Seiko.​
​


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> I have googled the 24900 results one by one on the french google page with the search "réparation and restauration de seiko".


Evening Georges,

You googled all 24900 results one by one? That is both quick and dedicated.

Ok, I'm convinced, Seiko don't sell their quality watches in France. I wonder why?


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> You are quite right Georges, Rolex are not in the same price bracket as Seiko. For example, this Seiko:
> 
> http://www.credor.com/news/newmodel/gbbx998.html
> 
> ...


Good evening again M4tt,

As far as I know the credor and grand credor are very exclusive lines of product from Seiko that are only for sales in Japan, I have never seen a grand credor or credor for sale in Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, USA, Belgium, Italy (being the country that has the biggest number of rolex owners per kilometer I read somewhere) and Wales. The credor and grand credor are exclusively sold in Japan. They are awesome watches in their own right but frankly speaking had I to go with a 500k$ watch, I would rather get a JB Blancpain 1789 with perpetual calendar, double column wheel self winding chronograph with the rattrapante, the moon phases and the leap year automatic calendar another choice would be the patek fitted with very modified version of the lemania 2320 the ch 27-70 q at Patek that is found in the perpetual calendar hand wound chronograph. The most expensive Rolex must be the 116520 in platinum with the meteorite dial and with diamonds as indexes, price must be over 250k$ but even tough it is not as expensive as the Seiko Credor, its movement is a marvel of functionality and robustness. You know better than me that a lot very rich people prefer Pateks, Lange & Söhne, Blancpain complications, Parmigiani Fleurier, François Paul Journe, IWC complications, JLC Tourbillons and other swiss made rarities over a Credor.

Of course people are different and so are their tastes.

best regards

georges


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Evening Georges,
> 
> You googled all 24900 results one by one? That is both quick and dedicated.
> 
> Ok, I'm convinced, Seiko don't sell their quality watches in France. I wonder why?


In the past when I started collecting watches, I have heard several horror stories from Charly my watchmaker but from another watchmaker I know, Patrick Layet who told me that when they were asking spare parts for the 6139 chronographs, they weren't able to get them. I have also heared more or less the same in Switzerland with some very experienced and skilled watchmakers I know. The fact that the 7s26 is not really a serviceable and repairable movement is also what prevents customers to trust Seiko. The 7s26 can't be wound manually, it doesn't have the stop second function and the changing date system is made of plastic parts not really a sign of a heavy duty mechanism. There are no really spare parts for this mechanism and watches fitted with this movement are considered as threwable watches. 
The only high range Seikos that are sold in France are sold through this one and only boutique http://www.seikocenter.fr/, the grand seiko and the grand seiko springdive are only sold in this boutique not elsewhere. Only one hig hend boutique as compared to several dozen of official breitling, rolex, iwc, omega, panerai and longines ad explains why Seiko will never be in the top tier on the French market.
hope this answers the question.

best regards

georges


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Georges, the 7s26* is Seiko's cheapest movement. *Are you really arguing that because this isn't great, all of Seiko's other watches are bad? As for the idea that it isn't serviceable, it certainly is. Here's someone doing it, with pictures:

http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/Workbench/Seiko/Seiko7005.html

I can see why you wouldn't ever buy a watch with cheap plastic, or should I say Delryn, parts. Does this mean I can buy your Speedmaster? Talking about parts and space watches, parts for the Seiko Space watch, the 6139. Don't talk nonsense, I just had one serviced and several parts repaired with no problem whatsoever.

The fact is that Seiko are already in the top tier, they just don't sell many watches, in France, a bit like Breguet really. I think you need to do a bit more research into Seiko. You will be surprised.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I quite agree, however, it demonstrates that Seiko can make watches at the very highest level. How they sell them is irrelevant.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Georges, the 7s26* is Seiko's cheapest movement. *Are you really arguing that because this isn't great, all of Seiko's other watches are bad? As for the idea that it isn't serviceable, it certainly is. Here's someone doing it, with pictures:
> 
> http://people.timezone.com/msandler/Articles/Workbench/Seiko/Seiko7005.html
> 
> ...


Good evening

I don't know all seiko movements of course seiko have made some great movements but thing is that Seiko customer service centre in France is totally different than the one in the UK. Of course, it can be serviced by some who is willing to do it. Charly did service some military seikos in the past but not sure if he does it now. The 6139 spare parts are more than a pain in the ass to find in France. Perhaps are some markets favored by others? I don't have the time to repair watches because myself I am not good at it nor I don't plan to do it. My target is vintage swiss made watches that I know can be repaired and restored without any problem this is what I stick to. The most sold seikos in France are the kinetic and the quartz watches. The ananta line of products, the premier lines of products, the sportura line of products and the divers line of products are the best sellers of seiko in France. Perhaps one day my opinion will change.

best regards

georges


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

It does sound as if you are getting all the low end stuff in France, which is a pity. 

However, as you can see from the photos, some Japanese stuff is excellent.


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## Runitout (Aug 19, 2009)

Well, nothing anyone has written seems to affect your basic premise, M4tt. I shouldn't be surprised that it was Seiko who have the best movement, nor that it isn't general knowledge. The excellence of their best watches seems to be matched only by the failure of their marketing, at least in the West.

How do the current offerings compare? Has the availability of quartz watches rendered absolute precision in handwound watches to be purely academic?


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## gatorcpa (Feb 11, 2006)

jbdan said:


> This is a shared sentiment all over the world. It's kind of sad, but at the same time it's OK. After all these are just watches, a fun and addicting passion beheld by a most diverse crowd with even more diverse tastes.
> 
> This thread has "learned me" (Southern term sorry couldn't resist :-d) a lot thanks for all the knowledge guys!


I couldn't agree more with the above.

While I loved reading the debate, I have to say that this whole argument is more proof that marketing tends to color our opinions more than the actual mechanics and real world operation of a particular watch movement.

Most of the better Swiss manufacturers didn't (and still don't) care much about the lower end of the market where Seiko has lived for many years. These lower end Japanese movements are certainly not the equal any high end Swiss movement. That would not be a fair comparison.

The fact is that Seiko has a special factory where its high end movements are produced. Here is a link to the Shizukuishi Watch Studio:

http://www.shizukuishi-watch.com/eng/

Comparing these movements with lower end Swiss or Japanese movements are like comparing apples to oranges.

IMO, the high-end movements produced in Shizukuishi are as good as anything produced in Switzerland and priced accordingly. The fact that Seiko chooses not to actively market these watches outside of Japan doesn't diminish their capabilities. It only means that Seiko prefers to be known outside of Japan for their middle and lower end products.

Rolex, and now Omega, prefers to market their watches towards a higher end market. Even their lowest price watch is many times the cost of a Seiko 5 automatic. So one would expect Swiss superiority at the lower end.

As far as the parts avaliability for Seikos outside of Japan, well they wouldn't be the first foreign company to fail on that end of their marketing equation. I remember many very fine Peugeot and Citroen automobiles sold in this country that quickly became useless due to the lack of support by the home factories for their American drivers.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

It did for a while, Seiko have, to my mind produced the ultimate quartz, the 9F series with up to five seconds a year accuracy and a fifty year service cycle (apart from batteries and seals). However, Seiko have moved back into mechanical stuff. just Google Grand Seiko to get an idea. 

In addition, they produced a new mid level movement the 6r15 which is at about a 2824 level and have made a series of very very nice watches with it in.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I'd say that sums it up nicely and with a brilliant link too. 

Cheers Gatorcp.


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## flathead59 (Dec 30, 2009)

+1 on the link, thanks Gatorcpa!

Mark


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

continuation of the handwound movements list that are worth to be recognized because of their collectibility and quality:
lemania 3000
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Lemania_3000








longines 12l
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_12L








longines 23
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_23Z








longines 27.0
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_27_0








longines 284
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_284








longines 302
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_302








longines 6902
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_6902








longines 995.2
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Longines_995_2








Omega 1030
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_1030








omega cal 30
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_262








omega 300
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_300








omega 410
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_410








omega 600
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Omega_600








patek philippe 10-200
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Patek-Philippe_10-200








patek philippe 23-300pm
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&0&2uswk&Patek-Philippe_23-300PM


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

well now i'm thoroughly confused. 

why would you include the omega 420, but not the 520? 

the randomness of this list is vexing me.


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## kll (Aug 19, 2009)

Sorry, to bump up this one up. I was just reading through this thread again, and thought that since there were now so many pictures in it, there should at least be one of the Omega 30T2Rg chronometer movement.

I won't be able to argue that its the best handwound movement of all time, but it's at least very very pretty.










(Pic stolen from a sales thread by ChrusinOhio; please let me know if you want me to delete it).


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## animusolus (Aug 3, 2009)

kll said:


> Sorry, to bump up this one up.


I'm not sorry :-d. I had missed the thread, and the spirited debate between georges, m4tt, et al provided a _*tremendous*_ education for me. The adversarial process, conducted within a civil context, can be a wonderful thing.

Many thanks to you all, gentlemen.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Cheers Animusolus. Kll, you may be surprised that I don't disagree with you. I have a very high opinion of the 30T2 family. I think that the regulation mechanism on that RG is terribly evocative as well a effective. I have only seen one in the flesh once courtesy of SpringDriven. Hopefully he will be good enough to post a picture of it and even make a case for it as being better than the Seiko as he is a real expert.

Personally I think that the 30T2 family are let down by the fact that they existed before the glycadur balance became commonly and affordably available. As far as I am aware all the 30T2 chronometers had screwed compensation balances. However, towards the end of production, the penultimate movement of the family, the 285, was equipped with both a glycadur balance and a Breguet overcoil hairspring.










Compare the balance with an earlier 30T2SC










The overcoil hairspring has a major disadvantage: it is rather tall and thus can only fit into taller movements (like the 30T2) but it also has a couple of massive advantages: First, the spring has an action which develops from the centre outwards and thus promotes stability and second, the centre of gravity remains constant in all positions. There are arguably better hairspring designs but none are as _romantic _as the Breguet. (yes, I'll have a hard job defending that claim!)

As you can see the 285 has a bog standard regulator. However, just imagine how it might perform if the balance had been very carefully poised and it had an 30T2RG or Swan Neck regulator? Now this is such an obvious thing to do that I wouldn't be surprised if they did! However, I haven't seen one. If I had, then I would be very tempted to say that the Seiko had real competition beyond the Hamilton.


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## sherwoodschwartz (Apr 16, 2009)

well, i guess the swiss weren't totally useless when it came to movements. i'm surprised to see that no one has posted the zenith 135 or the peseux 260. while not as nice as the seiko or the hamilton, they seem decent.


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