# Suggestions for watch cleaning solution without buying expensive specialty types



## halfapie

I am gearing up to do my first teardown, clean and lube. I do not mind spending money on nice tools or special watch oil, and will be ordering those though Ofrei or some such store.

However I have an inkling that the cleaning solution can be substituted with cheaper stuff I can buy from the local hardware store or drug store.

Any suggestions?

thanks!


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## ej0rge

There were a number of interesting discussions on the subject on Usenet about 11 years ago.

Mechanical Watch Cleaner Formulas... - alt.horology | Google Groups

My two bits: Ethyl alcohol should be kept well away from shellac (e.g. jewels), ammona is fast but may be bad for the metal.


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## ej0rge

fwiw, the MSDS for L&R non-ammoniated watch cleaner is here: http://www.lrultrasonics.com/msds/566UltrasonicNon-AmmoniatedWatchCleaningSolultion2-24-09.pdf

Ingredients list reads:

Stoddard Solvent 60-70%
Solvent Naphtha Light Aliphatic 15-20%
Oleic Acid 5-10%
Monoethanolamine 1-5%
2 Propoxyethanol 1-5%
n-Propanol 1-5%

It would appear that you could get Pretty Close with a can of odorless mineral spirit, a can of naphtha, and a bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol (synonymous with n-propanol). In case of a potential waxy component in the mineral spirits or naphtha, you may want to put the cans in the freezer overnight and then pour through a paper coffee filter - when frozen, the wax should plate out.

Still waiting to confirm w/ my chemist friend that Stoddard Solvent is just odorless mineral spirits.

And it may be worth finding out if oleic acid is available at craft stores or something. Pharmacist may be able to order it in for you. You can buy it from amazon, etc, but we're trying to avoid shipping charges, right?

L&R #3 Rinse Solution is just 70% stoddard solvent and 30% naphtha.


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## halfapie

ej0rge said:


> Still waiting to confirm w/ my chemist friend that Stoddard Solvent is just odorless mineral spirits.


Wikipedia suggests that you are right. 
Mineral spirits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## ej0rge

So in my case that means that i can potentially mix up a Good Enough cleaning solution and a Just Like It rinse solution by buying 1 can of VM&P naphtha at the hardware store. Already have the isopropyl and mineral spirits.


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## halfapie

I wonder what "good enough" solution will also be completely fume-free so that I can perform the work indoors, instead of my garage.


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## ej0rge

halfapie said:


> I wonder what "good enough" solution will also be completely fume-free so that I can perform the work indoors, instead of my garage.


For that we'd have to look up the MSDS for one of the water-based solutions, right? Everything else is going to be choc full of VOCs.

A&F has one, but i forget the name of the product, and haven't found an A&F website.

Edit: fwiw, the proposed recipe will smell bad but won't be remarkably harmfull if you refrain from spilling it, leaving it open on the counter, or using it in an unventilated room. I suppose this could still be a problem if you intend to manually clean with a stick of pegwood or something.


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## Outta Time

The biggest problem you will run into with water solutions is the drying, as you must get every bit of moisture out of every cranny. The biggest problem with homemade waterless solutions is the residues they may leave behind. Even the so-called 'new dip', a replacement for the old 'one dip', leaves a sticky enough residue on the hairspring to make the coils stick together, so I don't use it, even though it was specifically formulated for this. Invisible residue can mean the difference between a well running watch and one that doesn't run very well at all. Perhaps testing the fluids on pieces of glass and then drying will reveal any such tendencies. Just a thought.


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## ej0rge

Yeah, doing some more research I did come across the suggestion to let your solution evaporate on a piece of glass to see if it leaves a residue. 

A few other tidbits: 

Stoddard solvent is derived from paraffin, so it may still contain paraffin wax in small quantities. As i noted in an earlier post, if this is the case, freezing it should make the wax plate out into solids that are easily filtered. 

The 3:1 stoddard-to-naphtha ratio is actually a safety feature. Naphtha is a great cleaner but it evaporates very quickly and has a very low flash point (easy to make it burst into flames). The stoddard solvent slows the evaporation a little and increases the flash point so that it is much harder to start a fire with the resulting mixture. 

The oleic acid in the L&R product may help prevent it from leaving a residue. I'll have to bug my chemist friend again.


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## Somewhere else

The favorite do it yerself cleaning solutions were lighter fluid. I've heard that Ronson leaves less of a residue than Zippo. As has been noted in all the above posts, resideu is a problem with DYI cleaning solution.


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## ej0rge

Somewhere else said:


> The favorite do it yerself cleaning solutions were lighter fluid. I've heard that Ronson leaves less of a residue than Zippo. As has been noted in all the above posts, resideu is a problem with DYI cleaning solution.


Yeah, Ronson, Zippo, Coleman Fuel, all just marketing names for Naphtha.

Thing is, Naphtha is just a collection of petroleum distillates that fit within particular parameters. Every different product on the shelf has slightly different contents. I work for a company that produces a hazmat inventory software package - every brand of naphtha has it's own CAS number. It's really annoying for customers, but it's reality.

I saw a recommendation of Klean Strip brand solvents, but i haven't tested them.


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## halfapie

Hmm so in the end all of this might cost MORE than the L&R solution from the specialty stores?


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## ej0rge

halfapie said:


> Hmm so in the end all of this might cost MORE than the L&R solution from the specialty stores?


Hard to say.

I keep a lot of solvents around because i have multiple hobbies that require them. All i have to add to the collection is naphtha, assuming my mineral spirits are pure enough.

If you have to go to the hardware store and buy 4 different cans of solvent, it might not be cost effective vs. just finding someone to split a gallon of an L&R product with. Or trying to buy a pint off a local watchmaker.


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## dkbs

There are many cheap choices:

1) Acetone -- you can find this at beauty shop, women use this to clean their nails
2) mineral spirit -- walmart has that, but considering the side effect on your health, I recommend not to use it
3) Gasoline 
4) Automatic transmission fluid, if you need small bottle, try power steering fluid

After clean with these, remember rinse with isopropyl, don't watch balance wheel and pallet fork.


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## Somewhere else

dkbs said:


> There are many cheap choices:
> 
> 1) Acetone -- you can find this at beauty shop, women use this to clean their nails
> 2) mineral spirit -- walmart has that, but considering the side effect on your health, I recommend not to use it
> 3) Gasoline
> 4) Automatic transmission fluid, if you need small bottle, try power steering fluid
> 
> After clean with these, remember rinse with isopropyl, don't watch balance wheel and pallet fork.


What we used to get sometimes in a shop i worked in was the local farmer who took the clock movement out of the case, dropped it into a bucket of kerosene and swung it over his head. Centrifugal force and all that. A variation was to dip a feather in kerosene and clean the clock with that.

Actually, this treatment would jolt the gunk up enough to get the clock working again for a while, but by the time it got to us it was in pretty sad shape.


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## ej0rge

ej0rge said:


> fwiw, the MSDS for L&R non-ammoniated watch cleaner is here: http://www.lrultrasonics.com/msds/566UltrasonicNon-AmmoniatedWatchCleaningSolultion2-24-09.pdf
> 
> Ingredients list reads:
> 
> Stoddard Solvent 60-70%
> Solvent Naphtha Light Aliphatic 15-20%
> Oleic Acid 5-10%
> Monoethanolamine 1-5%
> 2 Propoxyethanol 1-5%
> n-Propanol 1-5%


Had a chat with my chemist friend. He made some clear points.

He found the idea of mixing stoddard solvent and light naphtha to be ponderous, and a bad idea, and a waste of naphtha. Suggested nixing the naptha and going for hardware store odorless mineral spirits with a small quantity of either 100% isopropyl or hardware store 'solvent alcohol' (ethyl). Alcohol optional.

He suggests that the oleic acid is present as an anticorrosive, as it coats metal with an extremely thin non-sticky polymer layer, and completely clean brass can easily oxidize. (Note that oleic acid isn't particularly reactive. Safe, as in you can drink it)

He posited that, lacking oleic acid, one could add a very small quantity of olive oil to the solvent. He suggested 5ml per gallon.

Monoethanolamine is present to remove oxides (tarnish) and does the job that the ammonia would have done in the ammoniated version. Didn't comment on whether it dissolves brass like ammonia does. This doesn't appear to be something we can buy as private citizens.

The propoxyethanol is a solvent included to dissolve organic fats - like fish oil and fingerprints - that the mineral spirits and naphtha won't touch.

He suggested hardware store xylene for removing metal varnish and residues that the mineral spirits don't remove. This could even be mixed with the mineral spirits, which he said was a reasonable, possibly even good idea. Stated that a ratio of less than 20% xylene would be pointless, and so would a ratio of more than 80% xylene. Suggested 2:1 mineral spirits to xylene, but with no qualifications (SWAG estimate).

A few caviats about xylene:

1: It is nowhere near odorless. Very sweet solvent odor. Use in a ventilated area. Sounds like a good candidate for use within an enclosed jar in an ultrasonic machine.

2: Some plastics will be completely dissolved by it.

3: While it will not dissolve shellac, it will dissolve rosin. States that he has seen optics from china which were held in place with rosin (which were supposed to have been held in place with epoxy) - and suggested that it is possible that unscrupulous manufacturers may try to use rosin to fix jewels in plates and bridges. Not that he has any watch experience, he'd just seen optical devices fall completely apart in xylene.

4: Since some pallet stones are glued in place, xylene should never be used on pallets.

He said it's anyone's guess what the n-propanol was included for. Didn't argue when i suggested it might have been a constituent of a product that provided another component.

Edit: So now I'm consdering putting a drop of olive oil in a small jar, filling 1/3rd with xylene, dissolving the olive oil in that, and then filling the other 2/3 with odorless mineral spirit. And maybe a 2nd jar with just VM&P naphtha.


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## Outta Time

S.E. brings up a very good point and that is to stay well away from kerosene. It will contaminate any cleaning solutions you may use and make them useless. Clockmakers will charge extra to clean clocks touched with kerosene, because they have to discard their cleaning solutions afterward. An old watchmaker in the st. Lawrence market had a wonderful cleaning solution he made himself, but would never tell me what was in it, however, the telltale smells of Naptha and Ammonia were in the air. Naptha or lighter fluid will not harm shellac, but I can't say whether or not it will harm rosin. When experimenting in this manner, always treat the balance and pallet fork separately with chemicals that are known not to dissolve shellac. (Just to re-state the obvious)


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## ej0rge

Outta Time said:


> Naptha or lighter fluid will not harm shellac, but I can't say whether or not it will harm rosin.


Well, we've no real reason to believe that anyone has been attaching jewels with rosin - but you'd have no way of knowing if they had until it fell out in a solution that shouldn't dissolve shellac. Indistinguishable when solid, especially in such small quantities.


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## SteveMann

How about good quality Carburettor cleaner - mostly carbon tetrachloride. Will that be ok to use?


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## pithy

SteveMann said:


> How about good quality Carburettor cleaner - mostly carbon tetrachloride. Will that be ok to use?


Can you post the MSD sheet for the product in question? I wonder if it contains any kcca or if its long term use impacts your reproductive health?p


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## GeneJockey

Here's the MSDS for Carbon Tet. you don't want to breathe it, and you don't want a lot of it on your skin for a long time. It's absorbed through the skin and attacks your liver.

You definitely want to use it with ventilation, preferably some kind of fume hood. You also want to wear nitrile gloves, and think about what you'd do if a pint bottle fo it broke where you're working. Hint: Open the windows and get everyone out for a few hours. DON'T TRY TO CLEAN IT UP, unless you're a professional at cleaning chemical spills.

Ideally, you'd want to work with something less toxic, and I don't know what it does to shellac. Didn't 'One-Dip' used to be Carbon Tet?


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## Guest

Various answers:
- zippo lighter fluid (expensive ...)
- light benzine (can be dangerous)
- elma 1:9 (easiest of all), then rinse in plain water, and then in alcohol or benzine.
- mix washing up liquid soap + ammonia + warm (50-60°c) water, same rinse cycles: less expensive, work wonders.

Do not try to be a chemist here ;-)


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> Here's the MSDS for Carbon Tet. you don't want to breathe it, and you don't want a lot of it on your skin for a long time. It's absorbed through the skin and attacks your liver. You definitely want to use it with ventilation, preferably some kind of fume hood. You also want to wear nitrile gloves, and think about what you'd do if a pint bottle fo it broke where you're working. Hint: Open the windows and get everyone out for a few hours. DON'T TRY TO CLEAN IT UP, unless you're a professional at cleaning chemical spills. Ideally, you'd want to work with something less toxic, and I don't know what it does to shellac. Didn't 'One-Dip' used to be Carbon Tet?





Misterpeter said:


> Various answers:
> - zippo lighter fluid (expensive ...)
> - light benzine (can be dangerous)
> - elma 1:9 (easiest of all), then rinse in plain water, and then in alcohol or benzine.
> - mix washing up liquid soap + ammonia + warm (50-60°c) water, same rinse cycles: less expensive, work wonders.
> 
> Do not try to be a chemist here ;-)


Thanks gentlemen! These are both excellent posts and that should be read and reflected on. :-!

pithy


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