# Elgin - Trench Watches of the Great War - WRUW



## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Hi - I received Stan's book and wore one of his watches today - great book by 'Literustyfan' - hand signed ! I put his watch on WRUW and thought I would just start a thread in honour of the book and his work so anyone else with a watch of his or by Elgin can post it - cheers, Scott

PS - my watch isn't in the book but I found the closest one - I think mine has an original crown....


























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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Thank you very much!

I'm glad that you like the book!

Your GIANT size 6s Elgin Trench Watch case was made by Philadelphia, it was available with two different crown tubes.

Yours, has the fat crown tube design with the over sized crown.

There was another crown tube design for that case that was about half as wide/deep that took a flat crown with a completely different stem/sleeve combination.

The screw in inner sleeves for the fat crown tubes are VERY hard to come by!

I'll be rock'n a RED 12, 19 jewel, Elgin Trench Watch today with a gold filled Illinois Watch Case Company Barrel Case.


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Sadly no Elgin watches in my collection, I hang my head in shame at this oversight on my part but I have also just received Stan's fab book and I'll post a picture of it with my latest acquisition










More on the pocket watch later

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

This is as close as I can come to an Elgin from the "Great War"...It was in a bunch of Elgin parts that I purchased - bezel, movement, and dial. No case, no hands. DRAT!









Oh well. I suppose I will eventually find a correct case and hands...


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

That is a great BOLD Arabic enamel military dial!

With the factory drilled hour marker lum dots too boot.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> That is a great BOLD Arabic enamel military dial!
> 
> With the factory drilled hour marker lum dots too boot.


It is enamel and in really nice shape...dated 5-17 on the back...I think the bezel in the photo is probably from a Philadelphia case (?). I saw the dial and the bezel in the listing (which I was after mainly for 4/0 spares) - and hoped the rest of the case was hiding in the tin but no luck.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

I unfortunately don't have any Elgins but I'm even more jealous because neither of my trenches are wearable yet. We should have a trench watch WRUR thread!


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

28A said:


> I unfortunately don't have any Elgins but I'm even more jealous because neither of my trenches are wearable yet. We should have a trench watch WRUR thread!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


WRUR is a typo maybe ?! No worries !

As long as Stan's fine, as the original idea of the thread was focused on his book - let's open it up to all Trench Watches !

I'm wearing a 1917 Moser Trench today anyway.....again at the risk of repeating.....










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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

Still sitting in my project box - but scheduled to for my bench soon. Here is my early style (that is right isn't it Stan?) Depollier cased Waltham...








It should be perfect for Stan's next book.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

*Well this is in his book!
1918 Cushion case rare offset crown at 1.30*




*And the only advert I ever seen for it - courtesy of Stan*


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Sdasurrey said:


> WRUR is a typo maybe ?! No worries !
> 
> As long as Stan's fine, as the original idea of the thread was focused on his book - let's open it up to all Trench Watches !
> 
> ...


Yep meant WRUW lol, it was like 2am and i was stuck at a mates house after fishing.. was a bit tired!


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

28A said:


> Yep meant WRUW lol, it was like 2am and i was stuck at a mates house after fishing.. was a bit tired!


No worries - again !!! Cheers, S

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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm just gonna sit here and admire all you blokes watches until my Borgel comes back from a service. 

Lucky so and sos..


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Sdasurrey said:


> As long as Stan's fine, as the original idea of the thread was focused on his book - let's open it up to all Trench Watches !
> 
> I'm wearing a 1917 Moser Trench today anyway.....again at the risk of repeating.....
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotta love that Moser.

I've no U.S made trench watch to show but as the thread has been opened up for all and sundry and also
at the risk of repeating...

Here is my favourite 'Sunday' watch.

WW1 Stauffer, doctors watch.
Center seconds in a gold case.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime said:


> Still sitting in my project box - but scheduled to for my bench soon. Here is my early style (that is right isn't it Stan?) Depollier cased Waltham...
> View attachment 2961538
> 
> 
> It should be perfect for Stan's next book.


Yep, that is the pre-September 1917 version of the Waltham Depollier "KHAKI" Trench Watch because it does not have the "double clinched bezel".

Very nice early model.

I bought one myself just yesterday that still has the original Depollier Clasp and "No Fuss" Khaki Webbing Strap!


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> Gotta love that Moser.
> 
> I've no U.S made trench watch to show but as the thread has been opened up for all and sundry and also
> at the risk of repeating...
> ...


Radger - easy to open up the thread to see a great watch like your red '12' Stauffer - much less gold and centre seconds ! I was bidding on a Stauffer trench last year (silver...) and wished I carried through - and pin set as well like the Moser - best regards on a Sunday ! Scott

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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

I actually just saw this ww1 pretty unique trench ending today from Edinburgh - very large for this era 39mm engine turned silver dial no crown, pin set a restoration project of course....









Movement seems to have been cannibalised for jewels ? 7 jewels maybe originally ?










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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

This is stretching the definition of trench but consistent with thread jacking and a 'Scott Eberhard Weakness Alert' - 1920-30 nickel 42 mm Eberhard - triple signed but supposedly from EB commentary re dialed ? I spent an hour comparing it to all the Eberhard pics I have in every detail and it doesn't seem re dialed- dodgy Latin country but ok seller ?

Seems like an interesting watch.....cathedral hands seem somewhat unique for an Eberhard which are usually spear, breguet or dauphine ? But I have seen Eberhard trenches with these hands....

Articulated lugs, single button chrono......Before the Valjioux 65 or Eberhard 1600 movement was used with the extra slide button....signature looks right but is a little unique below the hands not above..... Hallmark signature looks right but I'm just not showing the pic close up...

Interesting ....Scott

PS - anyone want to comment ???!!!












































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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Probably a refinished dial
58 bids - good luck in your bidding


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Probably a refinished dial
> 58 bids


Yes on the bids Adam - i compared it to all the pics I have and it looks right with patina and as I said the seller says its re dialed so what tells you it's redialed ? S

Other than the seller comments on the redial..... - since I started this hobby I have become dial 'purer and purer' - I know your simplest advice is 'buy the best, NON REDIALED vintage watch you can for the money'....so at times it seems harder in some cases to be sure....what really is a re dial.... Trying to start a company with no income buying a watch at these levels is..... Questionable..or divorce precipitating.....but I haven't seen an Eberhard like this ever....

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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Yes on the bids Adam - i compared it to all the pics I have and it looks right with patina and as I said the seller says its re dialed so what tells you it's redialed ? S
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Well its surely relumed, but long ago.
The hand lume match the dial lume, so if hand changed, I think then.

Its a cool watch
Good luck in your bidding
a


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> but I haven't seen an Eberhard like this ever....
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Good reason to suspect a redial!


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Well its surely relumed, but long ago.
> The hand lume match the dial lume, so if hand changed, I think then.
> 
> Its a cool watch
> ...


Thanks - but aside from re luming what tells you the dial is re finished - I guess I wonder about the logic personally of a very old re dial - (1) why when the watch is 'newer' is a re dial required and (2) if it's not original or re dialed in fact by Eberhard in some way isn't it true the after market re dials say in the 50s hypothetically were worse than good re dialers today ? Except for complete idiots that can't spell or position the tach numerals right or the signature etc....just thinking out loud! Thanks .....Scott

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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Good reason to suspect a redial!


Watch overall ie is unique in the context of other Eberhards but not 'wrong' - not the dial being wrong except for the larger lum type numerals and the size at 42 mm - everything else in every detail on the dial - except the low signature matches exactly the closest Eberhards I can compare to...for roughly that era - movement signature is right plus the regulator fonts on the movement are right and the case signature is right with a serial number ...so the as far as I can tell the dial is right not re done so that's what I can't figure out why it's wrong.....

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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Btw thanks for the dialogue late on a Sunday night...


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Watch overall ie is unique in the context of other Eberhards but not 'wrong' - not the dial being wrong except for the larger lum type numerals and the size at 42 mm - everything else in every detail on the dial - except the low signature matches exactly the closest Eberhards I can compare to...for roughly that era - movement signature is right plus the regulator fonts on the movement is right and the case signature is right with a serial number ...so the as far as I can tell the dial is right not re done so that's what I can't figure out why it's wrong.....
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


i doubt unique, I don't believe that.
dial and hands re lumed - no doubt.
Signature on dial is in incorrect place. Why?

yes I am sure movement is correct.

You just want it to be all correct in case you win it?
me? I don't take that chance
a


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Ok let me put it in quotes -- 'unique' - having looked at just about every Eberhard anywhere on the web for 10 months and acquired 6 vintage - I personally haven't seen anything like this - that's unique, (1) because it's possibly a little 'stretched' as a 'real' Eberhard, (2) were some in that era were made for the military ? Was this somehow made between the 1919 first chronograph which was a single button and the 1930s two button but monopusher with the slide ? So I'm happy to put 'unique' in quotes ! So it's 2.6 times signed...

I understand you are the fairly extreme purist - personally I have moved a long way toward there but will never be into vintage watches like you are -- but I have learned to be analytical about what I see and have learned here from all the 'aficianados' plus I spend north of 50% of my time looking just at Eberhard - so there is an emotional investment there and a large set of pics to compare details - so exactly where that leaves me is..it's an 'interesting' watch...cheers...SDA


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Aside from re-luming, if the numeral sizes were at all close to original, they are large enough that the normal positioning of the Eberhard art deco style signature wouldn't fit above the hands where it usually is, but not always.....one final piece of logic, every watch this seller has is repped as re-dialled......not very good.....


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

Well - I am no real expert...I have dials that I bought thinking they were re-done and found them to be original when I serviced the movements. I have had the opposite happen.

If the watch in question is a redial - it looks really good to me. That is a complex dial but all the indices match in alignment, texture and width. The only thing I see is the "Swiss Made" text is really close to, or maybe touching the outside line.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks P - believe me I have been staring at it for 3 hours and I have downloaded 200-300 Eberhard pics from 1919 to 1950 and I can't tell what's wrong - this whole discussion is just about how do you F.... Tell the difference between 93.6684% right and '99.44 % purity' !!! Thanks !!! Scott

PS - Paleotime - you're probably not old enough to remember 60s Ivory soap commercials .....which is good for you !!!

PSS - of course the other historical fact is the early model for the Ivory Soap box, 99.44% pure became a famous adult film star, Marilyn Chambers....


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> how do you F.... Tell the difference between 93.6684% right and '99.44 % purity' !!!


I don't think it can be done with photos...For me, what matters is whether my enjoyment of the watch is compromised by any work that has been done.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Paleotime said:


> I don't think it can be done with photos...For me, what matters is whether my enjoyment of the watch is compromised by any work that has been done.


P - DEFINITELY AGREE !!!!

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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Well as I just said to Habitant by PM (Americans in London stick together....) 'if a vintage watch redial tree falls in the forest and no one.......) - sorry to all for a Major League thread jack of my original thread....cheers, Scott



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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi Scott,

Having looked closely at the movement photo i would be hesitant at putting in a bid in on the single pusher chrono,the reason why is.........i see two movement holding screws,one at roughly 1`oclock the other at roughly 7`oclock,now while the one at at 1`clock seems sufficient to hold the inner case the one at 7`clock seems well shy of the inner case.If there is still time in the auction,i would ask the seller to provide a better picture of the movement to confirm any suspicions,but to my mind it`s looking like it may have been re-cased.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks for looking at it, but the auction ended......


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Thanks for looking at it, but the auction ended......
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


...... And I think you own it, no?


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

yes......so we will see as Paleotime says, 'when it's in my hand' ! I have actually sent a question already about the movement relative to the case ....the case is signed so again when you get into the nitty Gritty of faking case signatures I'm not sure how easy that is...S


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

What Paleotime says seems correct, actually I only looked closely at the dial. Now looking at the movement the column wheel 'appears' to have been greased or something.

Regards
adam


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> yes......so we will see as Paleotime says, 'when it's in my hand' ! I have actually sent a question already about the movement relative to the case ....the case is signed so again when you get into the nitty Gritty of faking case signatures I'm not sure how easy that is...S
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry to say Scott, I think you bought a Franken.
I looked much more closely to-day.
Note all the big bidders pulled out at 500$, you were bidding against a novice.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

If so I'll just reverse it - what are you looking at today that tells you that ? I assume you mean it's re cased implying the case signature is faked ? I did see the other bidder had 7 purchases - he accepts returns plus the EB guarantee - so getting him to reverse it now wastes a lot less of his time - anyway I just need the implied proof so your thoughts last night and today are quite helpful - and you were right most likely about 'unique' and I wasn't ! Thanks ! Just let me know your thoughts on why and I will tell him a renowned Horologist is questioning the watch !! Thanks ! Scott 


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Well this threads gone in a completely different direction.. maybe when i get my Borgel back i'll start a "Trench Watch WRUW".

Until then, Scott i see you collect Eberhards.. would you mind keeping an eye out for those Eberhard trench watches with the fully hermetic cases? As in the case within a case, crown and all. I want one.

Thankyouuuuu.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

28A said:


> Well this threads gone in a completely different direction.. maybe when i get my Borgel back i'll start a "Trench Watch WRUW".
> 
> Until then, Scott i see you collect Eberhards.. would you mind keeping an eye out for those Eberhard trench watches with the fully hermetic cases? As in the case within a case, crown and all. I want one.
> 
> Thankyouuuuu.


Yes 28a that's fine, but I actually don't see very many of them, but will pay more attention to their trenches! Scott

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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Thanks mate, appreciate it! There was one on ebay a couple of weeks back but it had swivel lugs.. not a problem except one of the lugs was missing so i figured that might of been expensive to fix. And it was about $200ish more than i wanted to spend for a first watch. 

Now i'd like to find one.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Sorry to say Scott, I think you bought a Franken.
> I looked much more closely to-day.
> Note all the big bidders pulled out at 500$, you were bidding against a novice.


Adam - already asked for an immediate reversal, even pointing the seller toward this discussion, don't forget also, I'm still a 'novice' as well !! Best Scott

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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> If so I'll just reverse it - what are you looking at today that tells you that ? I assume you mean it's re cased implying the case signature is faked ? I did see the other bidder had 7 purchases - he accepts returns plus the EB guarantee - so getting him to reverse it now wastes a lot less of his time - anyway I just need the implied proof so your thoughts last night and today are quite helpful - and you were right most likely about 'unique' and I wasn't ! Thanks ! Just let me know your thoughts on why and I will tell him a renowned Horologist is questioning the watch !! Thanks ! Scott
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


First, please drop the "renowned" - Thanks.
OK
Let me add what I think
Dial is reworked.
Movement and case do not match.
Case is definitely NOT Eberhard
I do not think crown matches case
The bridge marked EBERHARD, may be original EBERHARD piece, but I don't think it was original to that movement - just my feeling.

Sorry, if I had bought it, and I buy badly at times too, i would always suspect it was Franken.

Sorry
adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Thanks - renowned was for him not for you - we have discussed this issue in the past, so I dropped saying expert, thanks, Scott 


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Thanks - renowned was for him not for you - we have discussed this issue in the past, so I dropped saying expert, thanks, Scott
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Scott
I am not an expert nor I am renowned.
I am just a simple guy that has a passion for Horology.

No more or no less.

Sincerely
adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

That's fine Adam - already heard from the seller, he's happy to cancel the transaction immediately ! 'No problems' he said ! In fact it's already reversed, hard to believe it was that straight forward, not true for most sellers -Cheers, Scott 

WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED TRENCH WATCH THREAD.....SORRY FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE CAUSED....

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## derids (Nov 16, 2011)

Just a little pick me up for ya,Scott..


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

derids said:


> Just a little pick me up for ya,Scott..


Great thanks ! A Real Eberhard Watch ...! Cheers ! Scott

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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Good news. 
I knew it, the seller knew it, and I
suspect you knew. 
Glad to have helped. 
A


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Possibly .....re listed, same words, 8 bids....S


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

To bring this thread back on track, I thought you may like to see what is in Leterustyfan's next book:

*1917 WALTHAM (made in USA) Silver Cushion Case (so named Admiral Benson) with Offset Crown at 1.30. we know a few exist, but no adverts!
*


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Speaking of my next book "Waltham Trench Watches of the Great War"........................doing a bit of work on it right now.

Do you guys remember the Achel W. Johnson Elgin Trench Watch from about a year ago?

I would have LOVED to given that story it's own dedicated chapter in the Elgin book, but it did not get in my hands in time before my cutoff date to add any new material.

But, I am thinking about doing a similar story for a gentleman named Clarence Widdicombe Edmunds and his 1917 Waltham Depollier D-D "Khaki" Trench Watch from early 1917.

I just bought this watch a few days ago and several things make this watch stand out above the rest making it possibly chapter worthy.

A name and a year stamped on the case back, original black paint, the original "Cravenette" "No-Fuss" Khaki Strap and the original Depollier patented clasp.

The missing crown is not a problem, I have a correct sterling silver Depollier factory crown with the original black paint on it in my bins that I have been saving for a special day!

After an exhaustive search I think that I just might have tracked C.W. Edmunds down but facts still need to be double checked.

Looks like Clarence was born on November 22, 1888 in West Newton, Massachusetts.

He married Mary Amanda Webster in 1909, had one child Edward James Edmunds.

It looks like Clarence might have served under the command of General Pershing in 1916 while fighting Poncho Villa, pushing him back into Mexico.

He was in the Massachusetts Infantry for two years but it lists his rank as a Cook.

Before he joined the US Army he was a Stone Mason and he lived to the age of 84.

His age is correct, being 29 years old in 1917. I checked all CW Edmunds that I could find and the other name matches were too old in age for service.

I still need to check MANY facts and other military records but the wheels are turning.........................

Very little will be done to this watch, pretty much mechanical repairs only, just like the Achel W. Johnson Elgin Trench Watch.

Movement work, crown, crystal and a new hand made Khaki Strap, green in color as it once was.

The original Depoller Clasp on this watch is ridiculously hard to obtain!


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

Very cool Stan. I assume it has the basic 3/0s 7j movement?


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Movement jewel count is currently unknown, has not arrived yet, bought the watch with movement sight unseen.

7 or 15 jewels though.

Size 3/0s for sure.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> Movement jewel count is currently unknown, has not arrived yet, bought the watch with movement sight unseen.


Cool...a little mystery is always fun.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I'm a sucker for the ones with the original black paint!

Can't seem to lay off of them!

1918 Elgin Trench Watch with the required US Army black paint, this model saw service in BOTH World Wars!

Finding one with this much of the original black paint still in-tact is very difficult.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Nice pick up, that old Waltham looks very original.
Would this be the original strap? it looks very robust nice one I like it.

This watch looks the perfect specimen of a silver watch which has lain for very many years, unused and unpolished.
See how the strap would have lain across the case back and has patially protected that stripe
from turning pure black.

You don't say what this case is made from but I'd say silver and if that is paint and not tarnish then I'll
eat my laptop.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Nice pick up, that old Waltham looks very original.
> Would this be the original strap? it looks very robust nice one I like it.
> 
> This watch looks the perfect specimen of a silver watch which has lain for very many years, unused and unpolished.
> ...


Yep, looks like the original Khaki strap from the pics, it was dark green when it was brand new.

But, when it arrives in about a week I'll give everything a very close inspection, including the case finish, I'll post my findings for everybody.

Yes, it's a sterling case.

This model only came in sterling silver or 14k solid gold.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

You guys are just going to have to trust me on this one when I say that this sterling silver Depollier case came with a black factory finish when it was brand new.

I currently have the Depollier documents confirming this fact, among many others.

There were also civilian crystals and military crystal, the military crystals that Depollier used were MUCH darker than the civilian crystals.

Sorry, but I'm just not going to post these documents online, they will be a closely guarded secret until my next book comes out in 2016.

What do you think would make that laptop taste better? Hot sauce or mustard?

LOL! ! ! ! !


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> Yep, looks like the original Khaki strap from the pics, it was dark green when it was brand new.
> 
> But, when it arrives in about a week I'll give everything a very close inspection, including the case finish, I'll post my findings for everybody.
> 
> ...


If as a manufacturer, you wanted a black finish on silver you surely wouldn't
try to paint it on when a few rotten eggs will do the trick, tis in the gas.

Silver is notoriously difficult to paint requiring acid etching primers or the likes which
would result in finishes like on your Elgin example, I'd bet that Elgin watch is base metal.
Have you ever came across a black painted silver case?

If you discover that this is an aged blackened silver case rather than painted, will you polish
it up?


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> If as a manufacturer, you wanted a black finish on silver you surely wouldn't
> try to paint it on when a few rotten eggs will do the trick, tis in the gas.
> 
> Silver is notoriously difficult to paint requiring acid etching primers or the likes which
> ...


NO, this case will NOT be polished!

Far more valuable in it's current condition.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The black Elgin case was made by the Illinois Watch Case Company, it is nickel.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> You guys are just going to have to trust me on this one when I say that this sterling silver Depollier case came with a black factory finish when it was brand new.
> 
> I currently have the Depollier documents confirming this fact, among many others.
> 
> ...


If they supplied silver with a black factory finish then I'll bet it wasn't painted on.
Do your documents confirm this? have you saw an example of a silver case which
has been painted?
I'll wash the laptop down with chillie sauce if they were painted.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> NO, this case will NOT be polished!
> 
> Far more valuable in it's current condition.


Nice one,

If it were mine or I were a serious prospective buyer, then I would be gutted
to find out that you'ld cut of that original strap.

The original strap, to me at least, would be a massive bonus, after all the watch is named after the strap....just my view.
I'm more of a conservationist than restorer, each to there own.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The docs do not go into detail of how the process was done to blacken the case, it only states that it was done.

The only way to know for sure is to have the case spectro analyzed I guess.

The original strap does not have to be cut off, it would come off without damaging it in the least bit.

It's all in the design of the clasp that allows this to be possible.

With other Khaki strap clasp designs this would not be possible.

I already made a new one for it today.

The only reason I would remove the old strap is because it probably cannot be worn, too old and I would not trust it, not worth the risk.

The new Khaki strap can be installed and removed in about one minute and the original strap can be put back in place.

I will OF COURSE keep the original strap with the watch!


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> The docs do not go into detail of how the process was done to blacken the case, it only states that it was done.
> 
> The only way to know for sure is to have the case spectro analyzed I guess.
> 
> I will OF COURSE keep the original strap with the watch!


Good to know that the original strap will not be destroyed.

Spectro analysis would seem ot and uneccessary.
Paint adds thickness, only a few microns but easily detectable with the
thumbnail at a chipped area.

An old oxidised silver layer will add no discernable extra thickness which can be detected
this way, it might look like paint but it has no 'depth'.

If the watch has been blackened by a factory process then why the stripe on the caseback
which can be explained easily with a natural process.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

In my opinion the watch in post 54 (silver) is tarnish and not paint, versus the watch in post 58 (nickel) is, in my opinion is painted.

On reflection the two 'black' watches that I have on display at NAWCC are not silver but nickel cases, you can tell its paint by where it's chipped, there is a 'thickness' of paint between bare metal and paint.
We al;so have one piece painted brown on permanent display, so surely never tarnish

A


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is a 1917 D-D 'Khaki' advert. No mention of black case, case actually looks 'white' or silver.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

It sounds like you guys are trying to goad me into posting this evidence and the documents, sorry but that is just not going to happen.

LOL!

Completely understandable!

I would try to squeeze the guy who knew as well in order to get the goods.

About 100 years ago different terms and wording were used that we do not use today, everybody is barking up the wrong tree when doing research and looking for the answers.

Hand drawn pictures of these watches exist showing them with black cases, trust me.

I will go into the different methods used to get the desired results down the road (demonstration).

The term "black paint" probably needs to be tightened up and defined, which I will do.

It's one of those terms like "shrapnel guard".

No manufacturer ever called it a "shrapnel guard", it is just a VERY generalized term for "crystal guards", "watch protectors" and "mesh guards" which all means the same thing.


----------



## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

I agree with Horologist007,the watch at post 54 in tarnished not painted..........here`s the why,a white dial and a black case?Black and white create high contrast,i.e,high visibility and i thought the whole point of the black case was to keep these watches hidden,or less visible?So why bother painting a watch with a white dial?


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Stan, you're a tease!


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Apollonaught said:


> I agree with Horologist007,the watch at post 54 in tarnished not painted..........here`s the why,a white dial and a black case?Black and white create high contrast,i.e,high visibility and i thought the whole point of the black case was to keep these watches hidden,or less visible?So why bother painting a watch with a white dial?


Read post #61 again.

A special military crystal was used that would darken the white dial and the lum that would glow in the dark.


----------



## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Literustyfan said:


> Read post #61 again.
> 
> A special military crystal was used that would darken the white dial and the lum that would glow in the dark.


Ah! So the watch at post 54 is missing the crystal.?

Edit:Wouldn`t it be easier to provide the documents than answer my silly questions;-)


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yes, the crystal is missing.

And no, I'm not giving up the documents until my next book comes out, sorry.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

We know well that advert + many others, I don't think I have any with the mention of black paint either!
Here is mine:

*WALTHAM Depollier 1917 in its Original Box.*






*With another DEPOLLIER ADVERT*


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Don't worry, if I happen to get hit by a bus before the next book comes out my wife has instructions on what to do with all of my research materials and evidence.

LOL!

Everything will get into the proper hands.......................


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> Don't worry, if I happen to get hit by a bus before the next book comes out my wife has instructions on what to do with all of my research materials and evidence.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Everything will get into the proper hands.......................


LOL, the evidence and proofs are the surviving watches themselves I would think.

Are you saying that you have some secret evidence which proves that these silver Khaki watches were originaly
painted black?

Have you ever saw a silver watchcase painted black by the manufacturer?

Surely many would survive if they were painted black, there must be a genuine black painted
silver Kahki watch somewhere to support your secret info, surely.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> LOL, the evidence and proofs are the surviving watches themselves I would think.
> 
> Are you saying that you have some secret evidence which proves that these silver Khaki watches were originaly
> painted black?
> ...


"Secret evidence", yes it is in my possession.

No, not all of them had a black finish obviously.

It is unknown who exactly treated the cases at this point, the manufacturer or a 3rd party who was selling the watches to the US Army as per General Specification 579-D which required the cases to have a "dull black finish".

This requirement started on October 24, 1916.

Those of you who have my book, read page #7.

But, keep in mind when reading page 7 that the General Specification was once again changed in early 1918 to allow cases of other materials and designs to be purchased.

I don't have a doubt in my mind that the 1918 spec also required black dials.

The spec also changed requiring that the cases be "threaded" (aka, semi-hermetic) in 1918 from the "snap-together" versions.

Cases made by Fahys and the Illinois Watch Case Company prove this fact.

The updated 1918 General Specification has unfortunately been lost in time though, but clues were left behind if you know how to piece the puzzle back together.

It took me about 5+ years to piece back together what I know pertaining to the updated 1918 General Specification.


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Literustyfan said:


> Don't worry, if I happen to get hit by a bus before the next book comes out my wife has instructions on what to do with all of my research materials and evidence.
> 
> LOL!
> 
> Everything will get into the proper hands.......................


That's right, blame everything on the poor Bus Driver 

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

busmatt said:


> That's right, blame everything on the poor Bus Driver
> 
> Matt
> 
> Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


HaHaHa
Go get him!!!


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> HaHaHa
> Go get him!!!


It's not my fault, honest

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> "Secret evidence", yes it is in my possession.
> 
> No, not all of them had a black finish obviously.
> 
> ...


Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
which first generated the discussion.

First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.

What I find interesting is your claims that either a manufacturer or third party was painting or processing silver
watches to sell to the U.S Army.
Do the specs you quote mention that the watch cases should be silver? or do these specs generalise on material requirements?
Me, I just shake my head in wonder, I mean why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to paint it black?
Surely nickel or brass would be a more sensible choice.

Have you ever saw one of these black painted Kahki silver wristwatches you say were being supplied to the U.S Army?
Surely one must exist somewhere, perhaps in a military museum.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
> which first generated the discussion.
> 
> First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.
> ...


You mean this post?
https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/elgin-trench-watches-great-war-wruw-1551698-6.html#post12883266

Surely tarnish.
A


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> You mean this post?
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/elgin-trench-watches-great-war-wruw-1551698-6.html#post12883266
> 
> Surely tarnish.
> A


Indeed.

Out of curiosity, have you ever saw an example of a black painted silver wristwatch?


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Out of curiosity, have you ever saw an example of a black painted silver wristwatch?


No, as I posted here or the other thread that you asked.
The three on permanent display (two black painted and one brown) are not silver.

I had just never thought about it till you raised that question
A


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> No, as I posted here or the other thread that you asked.
> The three on permanent display (two black painted and one brown) are not silver.
> 
> I had just never thought about it till you raised that question
> A


Ah my apologies, I thought you might actually own one.

While searching the internet for an example of a black painted silver watch I came
across a post by a 'Gladiatior' showing his original silver Waltham complete with box but also intact and 'original black paint'.
Unfortuanately the pics were gone, I thought it might have been yours s'all.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Hi I apologise for drawing you out on this subject but hey, it was your post on the 'black painted' silver Khaki
> which first generated the discussion.
> 
> First off, nothing is obvious to me at least, concerning early mass produced U.S wrist watches.
> ...


In 1916 the requirement was Nickel but I believe that this was changed in early 1918 to allow for the use of Silverode, Silverine, Nickel Silver, Ore Silver and Sterling Silver, evidence strongly suggests this.

But, like I said before, the 1918 documents spelling out the General Specification have been lost in time but clues remain.

When war breaks out the rules quickly change, shortages of one metal means that another one takes it's place.

I do not know how or why they came to the decisions when it comes to case materials, nobody will probably ever know the answers to that one.

I never said that Khaki sterling silver wrist watches were being supplied to the US Army, I only quoted the specifications that were required by the US Army pertaining to a black finish on the cases.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Ah my apologies, I thought you might actually own one.
> 
> While searching the internet for an example of a black painted silver watch I came
> across a post by a 'Gladiatior' showing his original silver Waltham complete with box but also intact and 'original black paint'.
> Unfortuanately the pics were gone, I thought it might have been yours s'all.


Strange, sound like mine, and the one I posted above, which is tarnished.
do you have a link to that thread?
thanks


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> In 1916 the requirement was Nickel but I believe that this was changed in early 1918 to allow for the use of Silverode, Silverine, Nickel Silver, Ore Silver and Sterling Silver, evidence strongly suggests this.
> 
> But, like I said before, the 1918 documents spelling out the General Specification have been lost in time but clues remain.
> 
> ...


Hi thanks for the clarification.

Have you ever saw a silver cased watch with a 'genuine' factory produced black finish?
Depollier or other?


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> In 1916 the requirement was Nickel. es.


Stan
do the documents that you have, actually state "nickel"?
where do we know that the us army stated the case meterial.
i never saw that
a


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

This is pretty much all that I'm going to give you guys on this one, I'm not going to give up anything else.

Become an expert on "Japanning Sterling Silver" or Japanned Finish".


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Hi thanks for the clarification.
> 
> Have you ever saw a silver cased watch with a 'genuine' factory produced black finish?
> Depollier or other?


Yes.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Stan
> do the documents that you have, actually state "nickel"?
> where do we know that the us army stated the case meterial.
> i never saw that
> a


Yes, Wrist Watch General Specification 579-D in 1916 required Nickel for the US Army.


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Strange, sound like mine, and the one I posted above, which is tarnished.
> do you have a link to that thread?
> thanks


I was wrong I apologise, it was this post I read....
Vintage Watch Forums :: View topic - Provenance, Provenance, Provenance

This would be the original watch and box you posted in this thread also, no mention of a black painted finish
at all, brilliant watch.


----------



## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Stan,

Do you think my Dennison that i showed in another thread, would be this "Japanning" finish? Everyone else thought it might of been tarnish and not black paint, however its got a screw case and black dial.. and the mostly blackish finish to it. It sorta suggests by what you say that it could be military. Do you think it isn't black paint, but the "black finish" by this "Japanning" method?


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> Yes.


Excellent, no freebies on this I take it.


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

28A said:


> Stan,
> 
> Do you think my Dennison that i showed in another thread, would be this "Japanning" finish? Everyone else thought it might of been tarnish and not black paint, however its got a screw case and black dial.. and the mostly blackish finish to it. It sorta suggests by what you say that it could be military. Do you think it isn't black paint, but the "black finish" by this "Japanning" method?


Jappaning is a process where the black finish would be built up with laquers or resins, it would be fairly thick
and easily discernible.
It would work well on brass and nickel perhaps. I have examples of military black jappaned scientific instruments
in brass. I've never saw an example of black jappaned silver.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

"Japanned finish" on a "silver case" was Depollier's words.

I don't know exactly how they accomplished this but those were words that were used.

I have no idea when it comes to the durability and longevity of this method on silver or any other material like Nickel or Ore Silver.

Obviously everybody had their own "special secret sauce" when it came to blackening cases to meet the spec.


----------



## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Stan,

Thought this might be up your alley..

WW1 Waltham Khaki Military Depoiler Trench Watch RARE 1918 | eBay


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm obviously the non expert round here but I'm just wondering if we're all reading too much into the "Silver" part of the description.

I've spent some time researching WW2 watches, nothing serious, just for myself, and from what I can find out the specifications for both the British WWW's and the German D's and DH's were very similar, they both called for watches with "White Metal" cases and this meant anything from full Stainless steel to Chrome plated base metals. 
What does this have to add to the discussion? Well I'm just wondering if the term SILVER is the same thing and just a simplified term for the procurement order.

Matt

(Waiting to be shot down in flames )

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Wrong war!


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

bobbee said:


> Wrong war!


I was using it as an example of how government forms can be misleading

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

busmatt said:


> I'm obviously the non expert round here but I'm just wondering if we're all reading too much into the "Silver" part of the description.
> 
> I've spent some time researching WW2 watches, nothing serious, just for myself, and from what I can find out the specifications for both the British WWW's and the German D's and DH's were very similar, they both called for watches with "White Metal" cases and this meant anything from full Stainless steel to Chrome plated base metals.
> What does this have to add to the discussion? Well I'm just wondering if the term SILVER is the same thing and just a simplified term for the procurement order.
> ...


In my experience "white metal" is simply a base metal that has been chrome plated in some manner.

The plating is cheap and does not stand the test of time very well.

On the other hand Silver is Silver.


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Literustyfan said:


> In my experience "white metal" is simply a base metal that has been chrome plated in some manner.
> 
> The plating is cheap and does not stand the test of time very well.
> 
> On the other hand Silver is Silver.


I hear you Stan, and that's what I thought but in these cases White Metal meant anything silver in colour, and on this side of the pond antiques that are most likely silver but are not hall marked for whatever reason are sold as White metal.

Mart

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Yes, Wrist Watch General Specification 579-D in 1916 required Nickel for the US Army.


OK It has taken me three days searching, but I found the spec!

Para e) Case. *The case shall be of oxidized nickel, with dull black finish*...........(more).......
The document covers the whole watch.

I have downloaded copies and I have requested originals (copies of originals)

So it does exist!
adam


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

OK
*Here is an Elgin with original black paint:*


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

That is a Joseph Fahys, OreSilver, Semi-Hermetic case with the original factory crown.

One of the two confirmed cases being used by the US Army in 1918 when the spec changed.

Model #3 dial and the hands are 100% correct.

Perfect example!

It does not get much better than that!


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

This is what the the inside of the case backs looked like on the Joseph Fahys, OreSilver, Semi-Hermetic models.

Not all cases were done black on the inside but these Fahys models were.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> That is a Joseph Fahys, OreSilver, Semi-Hermetic case with the original factory crown.
> 
> One of the two confirmed cases being used by the US Army in 1918 when the spec changed.
> 
> ...


Yes, as, it's fantastic example.
So I have the spec, and a good example of the watch.
As it is *"Oresilver"* it has *No* silver content at all. They are just nickel cases.
'Silveroid' and 'Silverine' are also just nickel.

actually the US Government in 1920s requested correct content marking, hence plain old 'nickel' returned.

Regards
adam


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Yes, as, it's fantastic example.
> So I have the spec, and a good example of the watch.
> As it is *"Oresilver"* it has *No* silver content at all. They are just nickel cases.
> 'Silveroid' and 'Silverine' are also just nickel.
> ...


Yep, each manufacturer just called it something a bit different even though it was all pretty much the same content, that had no actual silver in it at all.

Silverode: Philadelphia
Silverine: Dueber
Silveroid: Keystone
OreSilver: Fahys
Nickel Silver: AWCCo

Star, Dennison, Depollier, Wadsworth and the IWCCo were stamped "Nickel".


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Liver of Sulphur can be used to instantly blacken (tarnish) silver.
Also, as Radger mentioned, eggs can be used as they produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide as they decompose.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Liver of Sulphur can be used to instantly blacken (tarnish) silver.
> Also, as Radger mentioned, eggs can be used as they produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide as they decompose.


True but these examples are surely painted black.
not being silver, though. 
Adam


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Liver of Sulphur can be used to instantly blacken (tarnish) silver.
> Also, as Radger mentioned, eggs can be used as they produce high levels of hydrogen sulfide as they decompose.


Also a product called Black Max.

I have a few products inbound right now, will be arriving in a few days.

Interest seems to be high on this topic right now so I decided to go all out with it and spend the money for a demo.

I will post a demonstration of these products and the results (before and after) when they arrive.

I have dozens of orphan sterling silver cases laying around the shop to do testing on.

Many of these cases are bent or broken so if these products grenade the cases it won't be a big deal.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Too bad you guys aren't local!

We could have a GTG with a few six packs while running these experiments!

This sounds like fun, can't wait to see what happens with these products and the results.


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

_"grenade the cases"_ LOL!


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Literustyfan said:


> Too bad you guys aren't local!
> 
> We could have a GTG with a few six packs while running these experiments!
> 
> This sounds like fun, can't wait to see what happens with these products and the results.


You can't taste beer whilst holding your nose to avoid the aroma of rotten eggs, according to my drinking buddies! ;-)

Don't forget to try the egg. Recommended is crushing a hard-boiled egg, put it in a plastic bag with the case and suck the air out and tie a knot in the bag!

Bob.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Also a product called Black Max.
> 
> I have a few products inbound right now, will be arriving in a few days.
> 
> ...


That is great and will be interesting, but the real "test" is painting a silver case with black paint.
we know well that nature will tarnish silver to dead black.
But can silver be painted?

regards


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Maybe if you gave it a good key with glasspaper, otherwise I doubt it.
Modern anodising might work.


----------



## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

bobbee said:


> Maybe if you gave it a good key with glasspaper, otherwise I doubt it.
> Modern anodising might work.


How about not so modern anodising?

http://www.johndesmond.com/blog/coatings/what-is-pvd-coating/
Look at the bit on William Robert Grove " highly polished silver surface"

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yes, sterling silver can be painted black, I've personally done it myself.

I tried at least a dozen different products and there were two products that stood above the rest that actually worked.

One was a black airplane propeller paint with epoxy made by Tempo, it's actually called aviation propeller epoxy coating.

The other was a two stage paint that uses nano-ceramic technology made by Eastwood intended for use on engine compartments.

These two products do not scratch off when you are intentionally trying to foul it with your fingernail, and I mean really hard.

But, when you scratch it with a key it will come off of course.

All the other products were pretty much of a joke that you buy at your local hardware store like Rustoleum and Krylon.

I actually put the result that were very good into my book, pages 133 & 134.

I did a 1918 Sterling Silver Fahys case with an integrated shrapnel guard all in black using airplane propeller epoxy paint.


----------



## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

The Liver of Sulfur will deliver a deep, black surface that is relatively resistant to polishing with something like Simichrome. It is generally what is used by silversmiths when they want to blacken relief in silver jewelry for contrast.

It maybe possible to lacquer over tarnish to give it a little more durability.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

DISCLAIMER!

I highly suggest not trying this at home if you don't know what you are doing.

It has to be done in a VERY specific order or it won't work and the case will not snap together, among other issues you will face ! ! ! ! ! !


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi Stan
Yes I remember those pictures and your research.
I did mention in this or another WUS post that you had painted these cases to 'emulate' the past.

But was it truly successful? Could you truly sell them on Ebay, without hassle (complaints and returns)?

Regards
adam


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The amount of time that went into trying to figure it all out was insane and very expensive!

The one pictured here I had to re-do several times until I got it right without a single run in the finish and that's after I figured out which products actually worked.

In the end, I did it just to see if it could in fact be done.

The hardening process takes MUCH longer than the product manufacturer indicated, this was probably due to the fact that I was not using it for it's intended purpose.

Climate, temperature and humidity were also major factors probably, I live in Texas.

It is not cost effective or profitable.

The watch winds up being so expensive due to the labor hours required to get these results that I decided to not do anymore of them.

Plus, you still have the rest of the watch to work on!

Getting a crystal seated properly after doing this to the case is insanely difficult!


But, it can be done with good results that last.


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Cheaper, quicker, easier to use the Liver of Sulphur. 
Sure as eggs are eggs!


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Then there is the "honesty" factor.

If the case has remnants of an original black finish I would not have any qualms about re-doing the black finish.

BUT, if the case never had a black finish I would not put a black finish on it, I just don't roll like that.

That is making it out to be something that it never was, which I would not do.

There is a MAJOR difference between restoration and creation!

The black case pictured above originally did have a black finish, but only remnants of it still remained when it first arrived on my bench.


The only reason I am going to experiment with the Liver of Sulfer and Black Max is to see if it can be done because I want to know how it was done about 100 years ago.

I have no intention of mass producing these finishes.

Once again, only if it originally had a black finish would I ever restore that way!

Reputation and integrity are far more important to me then earning a quick buck!


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Paleotime and Bobbee have hit the nail on the head.

Oxidisation will provide a perfect black finish to silver, and laquer would
be the perfect medium to protect it.

The laquer would be shellac at this time rather than a modern epoxy or polyurethane.

If factory oxidised silver cases exist then there would be evidence of the protective
laquer layer on well preserved examples.
Any other example can be regarded as natural tarnish imo.

I have a jewellers bar of about 1/4" sq silver about 8" long, it came in a box of watchmaker tools dating back to
about 100 years ago.
The silver has been tarnishing naturally for about the same time I'd say, it's as black as the blackest night, a perfect
finish and easily mistaken for a top class paint job. If you scratch at it with your thumbnail then the finish will
rub and show wear quite quickly.
I have experience with antique scientific instruments and laquer was used to preserve both polished and painted surfaces
on brass at least.
The shellac would be disolved in alcohol then 'wiped' on and very thin coats, built up to the protection desired.

If this laquering technique produced too high a gloss, it could be 'matted' down with fine abrasive.

I wish I could see an example of one of these original, factory produced painted/oxidised black silver cases
If they are in fact painted, and I'm still prepared to eat my laptop.

Stan, you have saw an original factory finished black silver case, did it have evidence of a clear (or yellowing) protective
laquer or was it in fact painted?

tis an elusive thing....the black painted silver case.


----------



## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

View attachment 3010698


This finish certainly reminds me of high temp exhaust manifold paint. Has the same texture as everything i've ever painted..


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Paleotime and Bobbee have hit the nail on the head.
> 
> Oxidisation will provide a perfect black finish to silver, and laquer would
> be the perfect medium to protect it.
> ...


The one that I see did not have evidence of a clear protective lacquer finish, it was very dull and simply looked like black paint.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Nick,

Does high temp exhaust manifold paint have some kind of bonding agent in it?


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I look forward to the results Stan, and they will surely make an interesting aside in your next book, I'm sure.
But the aeroplane epoxy and nano-ceramic technology is not horologically or historically correct, even though that finish looks absolutely beautiful on that cushion case!


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> The one that I see did not have evidence of a clear protective lacquer finish, it was very dull and simply looked like black paint.


do you have picture of that piece?

a


----------



## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Literustyfan said:


> Nick,
> 
> Does high temp exhaust manifold paint have some kind of bonding agent in it?


Stan,

I'm not sure mate. I do know that when i've painted cast iron before with anything else it tends to just flake off.. whereas the high temp manifold paint sticks on there like something to a blanket.. So perhaps?

I just know it does have that same sorta texture.. it doesn't come out flat and glossy like an acrylic / 2pak does.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> I look forward to the results Stan, and they will surely make an interesting aside in your next book, I'm sure.
> But the aeroplane epoxy and nano-ceramic technology is not horologically or historically correct, even though that finish looks absolutely beautiful on that cushion case!


No, the technology that I used did not come around until the 1960's and I'm sure that it's been improved sense then too.

I highly doubt that we will ever know exactly how the process was originally done.

But, the process that they did use was not all that great from the get go as so few pristine examples are known to exist.

Everybody knows that pyramids on the Giza Plateau were built, but is everybody going to agree on how they were built?

I'm not mass producing this finish on antique watch cases, not trying to package it up and sell it, just because I can does not mean that I will.

I know that you are being respectful and just making a point here, not jumping down my throat.

We are having a pleasant conversation debating the issues.

But, if we are going to start a conversation about things being horologically and historically correct lets start with everybody who is installing that new "aged" looking lum on their antique watch hands and dials.

This stuff is being mass produced, packaged up and sold at a profit fast as they can crank it out.

These products never existed 99 years ago.

These watches were suppose to glow in the dark, that new "aged" lum that's being sold today does not even glow, it's simply filler!

But, it's their personal property and they can do with it what ever they want to, even if it's horologically or historically incorrect.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Just checked the tracking number for the blackening products that I ordered, looks like they will be arriving sometime today!

Time to do the prep work on the cases I will be experimenting with......................


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Wear a mask.
H2S (hydrogen sulfide) gas will be present and can kill. You will have the aroma of rotten eggs, but in concentrated amounts it deadens the sense of smell, then it will affect breathing and can lead quickly to brain damage and death. It is a heavy gas so sinks, but build up can be swift.H
2S was used by the british as a weapon early in WW1 too.


P.S. glad you understand about the post, just friendly debate. 
Bob.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Wear a mask.
> H2S (hydrogen sulfide) gas will be present and can kill. You will have the aroma of rotten eggs, but in concentrated amounts it deadens the sense of smell, then it will affect breathing and can lead quickly to brain damage and death. It is a heavy gas so sinks, but build up can be swift.H
> 2S was used by the british as a weapon early in WW1 too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip!

This stuff has to be heated up I believe, I think that we have a hot plate that I can plug in and do this out on the back patio rather than in the kitchen.

I'll be sure to read the MSDS and the safety instructions before I begin!


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Warn the neighbours!
And when passers-by wrinkle their nose, don't forget to blame the wife!


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I wonder what this stuff is going to do to my wife's pots and pans when I heat it up!

LOL!

I might be going to the store tomorrow to buy her a new set!

LOL!



EDIT!

Flash forward 30 minutes....................

My wife just asked me what I was doing digging around in the pots and pans bin of our kitchen.

Told her that we will be running experiments today using blackening agents.

I got "the look" and was quickly instructed to go to the store and buy some cheap pots and that I was not allowed to use the Cuisinart kitchenware.

LOL!

Looks like I'll be going to the store here shortly!

LOL!


----------



## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Staying on trench watches but switching away from Stan's Marital 'conflict', I did grab for 'cheap' this 39 mm silver engine turned dial and original hands, trench for refurbing - not by me !

So I may reach out for ideas.... Stan I assume you only work on US watches ? Cheers, Scott



















Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yep, only work on American watches for the most part, sorry.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I came across this, actually I am sure it is a Literustyfan watch (sorry Stan if it is not one of yours)
*It is a 1918 WWI Elgin Black Star Dial Trench Watch, semi-hermetic Illinois case, solid nickel, original factory crown, size 3 0s, 7 jewels.
Note nickel and I believe with the original black paint.*


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yep, it's one of mine, incredibly rare version.

Got a four page spread in my book, pages 13-16.

This one actually has US Army ORD markings on the case back that were added after the war by a US Army watchmaker.

Yep, black paint.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Yep, it's one of mine, incredibly rare version.
> 
> Got a four page spread in my book, pages 13-16.
> 
> ...


Yes, I thought so, thanks for confirming it.
Just wanted to clearly show one with original black paint.
I also found a Depollier case that surely is painted (not tarnish)

And thanks to Nancy Dyer at NAWCC I now have the full:


Will use this in my next Webinar!
Adam


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I came across this, actually I am sure it is a Literustyfan watch (sorry Stan if it is not one of yours)
> *It is a 1918 WWI Elgin Black Star Dial Trench Watch, semi-hermetic Illinois case, solid nickel, original factory crown, size 3 0s, 7 jewels.
> Note nickel and I believe with the original black paint.*


"Solid Nickel"?

This is not a silver case


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> "Solid Nickel"?
> 
> This is not a silver case


Exactly. I both highlighted it was nickel and mentioned it.

I was trying to show that with all my research, I can only find nickel painted pieces.

Sorry if I caused confusion
a


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Yes, I thought so, thanks for confirming it.
> Just wanted to clearly show one with original black paint.
> I also found a Depollier case that surely is painted (not tarnish)
> 
> ...


Okay, I know when not to post what I find! ;-)


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Cool.
But if you decide to post it fine.
I will still use it in my webinar!
PS - STUDY my Avater!!
Adam


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Exactly. I both highlighted it was nickel and mentioned it.
> 
> I was trying to show that with all my research, I can only find nickel painted pieces.
> 
> ...


No probs, you did mention it twice that it was nickel.

For readers who are unfamiliar with Nickel or Nickel silver, it is an alloy
of copper, nickel and zinc. It con.tains no silver


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Cool.
> But if you decide to post it fine.
> I will still use it in my webinar!
> PS - STUDY my Avater!!
> Adam


Calma.

Can't see what it is in your "avatar", apart from it being a watch buddy.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> No probs, you did mention it twice that it was nickel.
> 
> For readers who are unfamiliar with Nickel or Nickel silver, it is an alloy
> of copper, nickel and zinc. It con.tains no silver


Agreed
As I posted here at post 111 on a similar piece marked 'Oresilver'

"As it is *"Oresilver" it has No silver content at all. They are just nickel cases.
'Silveroid' and 'Silverine' are also just nickel.

actually the US Government in 1920s requested correct content marking, hence plain old 'nickel' returned.
*


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Calma.
> 
> Can't see what it is in your "avatar", apart from it being a watch buddy.


Its a Harwood as a clue


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Went to the store, I have all the supplies that I'll be needing now, (including new pots, LOL!)

The test sterling silver cases (along with a few others) have been highly polished on the Arbe machine.

My finger tips are a tad crispy due to doing that much sterling in one sitting, sterling silver gets HOT (much hotter than other metals) even if you are wearing heat shielding gloves!

The cases have been in the ultrasonic machine and wiped down with alcohol, they are now VERY clean as required for the process.

Just waiting on the UPS guy to deliver the blackening agents.............................


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Its a Harwood as a clue


No hole at 6? ;-)


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> No hole at 6? ;-)


Exactly, what I thought.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Post it on that Harwood thread, nobody is going to shoot you for it!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Post it on that Harwood thread, nobody is going to shoot you for it!


I will start a new thread once it arrives.
Its a bit of a mystery piece at the moment.
Adam


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Scott,

I was watching that one for a little while. Put up a thread on it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The UPS man is LATE by several hours from their normal drop off time slot so I've been keeping myself busy with something else!

The C.W. Edmunds 1917 WWI Waltham Depollier Khaki Trench Watch arrived today.

I've got about 3 hours in on this watch right now.

The original crown and stem were crack off about half way down the stem, not a big deal, I have extras.

The replacement crown, which IS an original Depollier sterling silver crown for this watch is almost a perfect match when it come to the color.

Not all Depollier KHAKI trench watches had a KHAKI stamped crown in the early years of this watch.

The original strap that was on this watch was EXTREMELY small, a child would have a hard time sliding it over their wrist.

The original strap has been removed and put aside in a safe place.

I hand made the Khaki strap that you currently see, also have a green one which would be considered correct as they originally came with dark green straps.

Just trying out the tan Khaki strap for the time being, trying to figure out if I like the tan or the green better.

I had no idea what movement this watch had when I bought it, but I was VERY pleasantly surprised to find the higher end 15 jewel version!

I took the movement completely apart and cleaned it, it was not running.

The numbers are now -10 seconds per 24 hours, 230 amplitude with a 0.3 beat error............you pretty much can't ask for better numbers than that!

For the time being I installed a GS PK Hi-Dome crystal, just ordered something more suitable from Borel about an hour ago, arrives in a few days.

Most if not all of the original factory lum survived the break down and re-assembly of the watch after I got it running once again.

This is a VERY early original sterling silver Depollier clasp, it is stamped "STERLING Pat. Apld".

The patents for the clasp were not granted until July 25, 1916 and then again on October 24, 1916, this clasp pre-dates the patent!

So, without further delay I give you the 1917 Waltham Depollier Khaki Trench Watch, factory catalog number 203-K.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Great result
Looks fantastic
a


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks Adam ! ! !

Here is the info on the original owner of this Waltham Depollier Khaki Trench Watch (I think, still checking my facts).

After an exhaustive search I think that I just might have tracked C.W. Edmunds down but facts still need to be double checked.

Looks like Clarence was born on November 22, 1888 in West Newton, Massachusetts.

He married Mary Amanda Webster in 1909, had one child Edward James Edmunds.

It looks like Clarence might have served under the command of General Pershing in 1916 while fighting Poncho Villa, pushing him back into Mexico.

He was in the Massachusetts Infantry for two years but it lists his rank as a Cook.

Before he joined the US Army he was a Stone Mason and he lived to the age of 84.

His age is correct, being 29 years old in 1917. I checked all CW Edmunds that I could find and the other name matches were too old in age for service.

I still need to check MANY facts and other military records but the wheels are turning.........................


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

great piece, well restored
adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

What do you guys think?

The Green strap or the Tan strap ? ? ?

These watches originally came with Green Khaki Straps from Deopllier when they were brand new.

I kind of like the Green strap better but the Tan strap gives it that "aged" look.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> great piece, well restored
> adam


There are easy days in the shop and then there are VERY hard days in the shop.

This was a pretty easy day!

Nobody has touched this movement is MANY years and that's just how I like to get them!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

That looks fantastic, I love the clasp too.
Great job on the straps, they really look the part!

The movement serial number I checked here:
Elgin Watches Serial Numbers | Elgin National Watch Company Serial Number, Elgin pocket watch

gives astrange result though!
A date of 1918, a jewel count of 7.

Edit- Ha ha, looked on the wrong one!
Actually gives the date as 
1916 for the movement, spot-on.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

Nicely done...the grade 365 is a nice surprise - I don't know if I have seen one without the gilt star wheel before (but never really paid close attention). A bit more amplitude would be nice - but you have crossed the magic line at 240.

Thanks for the update.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm not particularly a fan of either straps despite originality. I will however say that the watch looks great, and I really like the look of those Waltham movements. Actually, the Elgin are quite nice too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

28A said:


> Scott,
> 
> I was watching that one for a little while. Put up a thread on it!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nick - I will once I figure out my refurb strategy ! Cheers, Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Awesome! I look forward to it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime said:


> Nicely done...the grade 365 is a nice surprise - I don't know if I have seen one without the gilt star wheel before (but never really paid close attention). A bit more amplitude would be nice - but you have crossed the magic line at 240.
> 
> Thanks for the update.


I'm reluctant to put in a brand new mainspring when the amplitude is at 230 and the beat error being so low.

This might do more harm than good perhaps because I don't believe anybody is selling the slightly weaker 15 jewel mainsprings.

Anything below 220 gets a new spring, I use 220 as my cutoff line but other factors are considered.

I'll check the numbers again in the morning when I come back in to the shop, if the amp goes below 200 after 12 hours I'll put a new one in and see where it's at.

What is your cutoff amp number for installing a new spring with a beat error this low?


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The UPS guys finally showed up with my boxes of Black Max and Liver of Surfer Gel a few minutes ago.

It's getting too dark to start all of this sense I'm doing it outside on the deck, Sun is about to go down.

I'll get started on the blackening experiments tomorrow morning...................sorry for the delay, blame UPS for showing up 6 hours later than normal.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> What is your cutoff amp number for installing a new spring with a beat error this low?


I am with you - as long as I still have over 225 after 12-14 hrs. The issue (as you know) is the weird timing issues that spring up as the power falls off. I like 270+ at full wind to give me 240+ at 24 hrs.

I have used NOS blue steel which are somewhat set in the package - but not nearly as bad as ones in the barrel - to keep from over-pushing movements that I was concerned about, or movements that were re-banking (galloping) due to too much amplitude.

I don't worry too much about beat error - I adjust the collet into beat...


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> That looks fantastic, I love the clasp too.
> Great job on the straps, they really look the part!
> 
> The movement serial number I checked here:
> ...


I'm not a big fan of the Pocket Watch Database site.

It is more often wrong than it is right in my opinion.

The -/+ 3 years is a VERY big margin of error.

I can date movements a heck of a lot closer than that with my own data.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime said:


> I am with you - as long as I still have over 225 after 12-14 hrs. The issue (as you know) is the weird timing issues that spring up as the power falls off. I like 270+ at full wind to give me 240+ at 24 hrs.
> 
> I have used NOS blue steel which are somewhat set in the package - but not nearly as bad as ones in the barrel - to keep from over-pushing movements that I was concerned about, or movements that were re-banking (galloping) due to too much amplitude.
> 
> I don't worry too much about beat error - I adjust the collet into beat...


That is exactly my concern, too much power and that nice smooth flat line on the timegraph screen will start doing the jump and everything that you just did you have to un-do.

I find that Walthams will do this WAY more than an Elgin movement will.

Kind of hard to over power an Elgin movement and make it jump on the screen.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I put it back on the machine after my last post because you got me thinking, amp dropped off too much too fast.

Spring was too old and weak, just installed a brand new mainspring.

Nice 60 point jump with the new spring!

We'll see if the timing needs a final tweak in the morning.

13 hours in the shop today is enough, time to chill out on the couch and watch a movie!


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> I find that Walthams will do this WAY more than an Elgin movement will.
> 
> Kind of hard to over power an Elgin movement and make it jump on the screen.


Some Elgins are pretty easy to push into the gallop - the 18/0s and the 8/0s.



> Spring was too old and weak, just installed a brand new mainspring.
> 
> Nice 60 point jump with the new spring!


There you go! 300 degrees is perfect...15-20 short of rebanking...and lots of room for good timing as the mainspring runs down or positional changes.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Can you guys give me a basic run down on this amplitude, beat error stuff?

My watchmaker was considering seeing how the original spring was in my Borgel but when he pulled it apart it was an old blued spring that was not worth keeping. So i'm very curious to see how a brand new spring can keep better accuracy and timekeeping. I'd like to know what you blokes are going on about!


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> The UPS man is LATE by several hours from their normal drop off time slot so I've been keeping myself busy with something else!
> 
> The C.W. Edmunds 1917 WWI Waltham Depollier Khaki Trench Watch arrived today.
> 
> ...


Nice old Waltham and a good movement too..... but you don't mention the case finish.

You said .....

"But, when it arrives in about a week I'll give everything a very close inspection, including the case finish, I'll post my findings for everybody."

You have the watch in hand now, are you still convinced that this is a factory painted finished?
Is the 'finish' that you are seeing, supported by your 'secret' evidence, that this is how it was supplied
from new?

Obviously I'm interested in this aspect of the watch considering all the previous discussion and the
fact that I might have to eat my laptop


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> Can you guys give me a basic run down on this amplitude, beat error stuff?


Ok...A big question though...To over-simplify...With the balance at rest - the roller jewel should be positioned so that it is centered in the pallet fork with the pallet in the center between the banking pins. A watch in this condition is 'in beat'. In this way, when power is applied to the gears (the train) everything goes into motion and the balance receives impulse to begin oscillation. Since the roller 'wants' to be positioned in the middle of the fork - the balance should (theoretically) receive the same impulse force whether is it being thrown one way or the other. Beat error is the difference between the time of oscillation going one way over the time going the other way. You want a very small beat error...and adjusting beat on old watches can be tricky, risky to the hairspring - it is a steady-hands type of operation. Most of us avoid it if possible.

Amplitude it the total range of motion of the balance under power. The motion of the pallet feeds power into the balance and flicks it around one direction then the other. A good hard flick sends the balance on a longer arc. Ideally the length of time the balance takes to oscillate would be the same whether it receives a hard flick or a soft flick - but this is not the case (although a lot of development was directed at making this as much the case as possible). Good timekeeping requires a certain minimum amplitude - there is some argument as to what a good minimum is...225 degrees is probably an OK (but low) number.

A mainspring has more power fully wound than partially wound - and transfers different amounts of power to the balance throughout the cycle between fully wound and unwound. This means less input into the balance and therefore less amplitude. New springs are shaped to provide the evenest possible power distribution. The trick is to have enough amplitude fully wound (but not too much - that is another problem) to tolerate the lessening of amplitude as the spring power falls - to keep the balance oscillating on long, time-stable arcs.

There are also positional issues due to gravity - which lessens the amplitude of the balance in vertical positions...Which can be compensated for by adjustments...

Whew...Clear as mud right?


----------



## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Okay so..

Amplitude is basically a single word for "degrees of motion of the balance wheel" and beat error is the time difference between the balance wheel swinging in both directions?

That's easy enough to remember.

I recall my watchmaker saying my Borgel wasn't swinging the whole 270 degrees. When it is getting serviced, he is going to "poise" the balance and true it all up. So in theory, it should be very close if not to that 270 degrees optimum, is that right?


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime said:


> Ok...A big question though...To over-simplify...With the balance at rest - the roller jewel should be positioned so that it is centered in the pallet fork with the pallet in the center between the banking pins. A watch in this condition is 'in beat'. In this way, when power is applied to the gears (the train) everything goes into motion and the balance receives impulse to begin oscillation. Since the roller 'wants' to be positioned in the middle of the fork - the balance should (theoretically) receive the same impulse force whether is it being thrown one way or the other. Beat error is the difference between the time of oscillation going one way over the time going the other way. You want a very small beat error...and adjusting beat on old watches can be tricky, risky to the hairspring - it is a steady-hands type of operation. Most of us avoid it if possible.
> 
> Amplitude it the total range of motion of the balance under power. The motion of the pallet feeds power into the balance and flicks it around one direction then the other. A good hard flick sends the balance on a longer arc. Ideally the length of time the balance takes to oscillate would be the same whether it receives a hard flick or a soft flick - but this is not the case (although a lot of development was directed at making this as much the case as possible). Good timekeeping requires a certain minimum amplitude - there is some argument as to what a good minimum is...225 degrees is probably an OK (but low) number.
> 
> ...


GREAT answer, no way I could have answered that one as well as you did, you are the man!

If your movement gets magnetized down the road (which happens more than you would think) it will throw all of your hard work and adjustments out of whack.

Even after a de-mag the numbers usually won't go back to right where you had them and adjustments will have to be made once again.

Anti-magnetic movements were not being widely used for many more years.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Radger,

Waiting for the Sun to come up so I can take some pictures.

I will answer your question, but pictures are needed.

About two hours until decent light.


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Setting: a warm Texas morning, the sun is shining and the birds are singing. In the garden Mr. Czubernat is setting up the barbeque burner and an assortment of pots and pans.
"Oh my", breathes Mrs. Czubernat upon looking through the kitchen window. "Stanny is making breakfast, what a darling treat for me!"
"Boy, is this case-colouring work working up an appetite!" thinks Stanny. "Better go tell the missus to get breakfast on."

FIN.


----------



## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Setting: a warm Texas morning, the sun is shining and the birds are singing. In the garden Mr. Czubernat is setting up the barbeque burner and an assortment of pots and pans.
> "Oh my", breathes Mrs. Czubernat upon looking through the kitchen window. "Stanny is making breakfast, what a darling treat for me!"
> "Boy, is this case-colouring work working up an appetite!" thinks Stanny. "Better go tell the missus to get breakfast on."
> 
> FIN.


This thread aside from my Eberhard detour is turning into a Saga !!!!

Bobbee could you please post some Texas pics !!!! Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> I recall my watchmaker saying my Borgel wasn't swinging the whole 270 degrees. When it is getting serviced, he is going to "poise" the balance and true it all up. So in theory, it should be very close if not to that 270 degrees optimum, is that right?


There are a lot of reasons a movement might not produce good/acceptable amplitude. With an unknown service history but good balance - the smart money is on dirty/sticky pivots and jewels and/or a weak/set mainspring. Poise won't effect amplitude in horizonal positions (dial up/dial down). A balance out of true can - i.e. a bent balance wheel if it is hitting somewhere.

A balance in good poise is important in horizontal positions (pendant down - like on your wrist with your arm at your side). A poised balance will keep the timing difference between horizontal positions and vertical positions to a minimum. (This is an over-simplification - there are reasons to deliberately violate the perfect poise rule...and differences between static poise and dynamic poise).

From what you have said - I get that your watchmaker is interested in seeing how well he can get your watch to perform. He is going to put it in the best state that he can - knowing that it will make you happy...but also probably because he seldom gets the opportunity to do this kind of good, 'old-fashioned' work.



> GREAT answer, no way I could have answered that one as well as you did, you are the man!


Thanks Stan...I was thinking as I was writing of all the exceptions to the things I was saying...


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Sdasurrey said:


> This thread aside from my Eberhard detour is turning into a Saga !!!!
> 
> Bobbee could you please post some Texas pics !!!! Scott
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime,

Made some adjustments last night before bed, turned out they were not good ones.

Took the whole thing apart again and started over after cleaning it again.

I was taking power out of the mainspring manually 3 turns at a time this morning to speed things up with testing.

When I wound it all the way back up it started jumping and there was too much amplitude (325), lines started jumping on the screen.

Made three adjustments on the mean time screws (1/4 turn out at a time) finally winding up at 3/4 of a turn out from where they originally were.

This did the trick, not jumping anymore, (amp back down to 290) dial up and crown down positions are right where they should be now going on 4 hours of testing.

The numbers tomorrow morning will ultimately tell the tale though, but I am very happy with these current adjustments.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I decided to make a strap change on this Waltham Depollier.

I removed the Tan strap and installed a Green strap, just the way it was 98 years ago and the way it was shown by Depollier.

Getting your hands on COLOR adverts from this era is EXTREMELY hard, almost everything was in black and white print.

I like the Green strap MUCH better!

This is the way it will stay.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I don't think I ever saw the color advert.

BUT is it paint or tarnish.
It looks mighty like tarnish to me on a silver case.

Nothing like the black painted and chipped nickel cases.

My bet its tarnish?
adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Okay, here we go with the Black Max and Liver of Sulfur testing results...........................

Not exactly what I expected, I was expecting more of a black color rather than a grayish color.

First off, NO good, usable cases were destroyed in these tests.

The Depollier case is a mismatch, this case back does not fit onto this case, these are simply bin case parts.

The Illinois case was destroyed by somebody who cut off the original factory lugs and installed lugs with spring bar holes which is a major NO NO in my book.

As you can see on the Illinois case the color of the lugs do not match the rest of the case.

The Depollier case was treated using Liver of Sulfur, the Illinois case was treated using Black Max.

These cases where polished to a high sheen and then treated, they had the same finish as the case back shown in the middle of the pictures that was not treated.

Something that I did not expect was to see "layers" of oxidation that were higher than the rest of the case, these raised "layers" got me thinking.

What I though was some sort of "raised" black treatment that was fading away on these sterling silver "aged" cases that we are talking about just is probably just aging built up tarnish.

Tarnish that has never been touched or wiped down, it's simply nearly 100 years of built up tarnishing.

The "raised" sections that I was seeing really threw me for a loop, could have SWORN that it was some kind of blackening treatment due to it being "raised" and at a higher level than the rest of the case.

The black Nickel cases have obviously been treated but the sterling cases looks like old age after these experiments sense I was able to reproduce the same "raised" features.

Plus, the inside of the case backs on the sterling silver cases in question are clear of any treatment, they have their original shiny sterling color, they are not blackish on the inside of the case backs.

But, the US Army Illinois Nickel cases and US Army Fahys OreSilver cases do have a clearly visible coating of black treatment on the inside of the case backs and case lips.

BUT, these are Depollier's EXACT words (1917), verbatim: "The watch to be used in the trenches should have a dark finished silver case".

Something was done to them by Depollier but I'll be damned if I can figure it out.

A combination of some kind of unknown treatment and the natural aging process on some of the models we are seeing turn up?

This is one of those things that is going to drive us NUTS for years to come.

Let the debating on this topic begin..................................


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I don't think I ever saw the color advert.


The Waltham book is going to blow your socks off, trust me!

This is just a little taste for the forum to enjoy!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

OK
Stan
So we agree its years of tarnish. So how did Depollier do it?
I think I found the formulae. It comes from a very old book called:
CYCLOPEDIA of VALUABLE INFORMATION for
Jeweler, Watchmaker, Optician.

The book is privately printed for the trade Publishers Nelson-Hall and Co - Chigago

Its very old, but sorry not dated.

On page 21 it gives formulae for:

Black Dip for Silver - Water 1 quart, liver of sulphur 6 ozs, ammonia 1 ounce

The book also has a formulae to oxidise silver:
Sal ammoniac 2 pts, sulphate copper 2 pts, saltpeter 1 part. Reduce to a fine poweder and dissolve in a little acetic acid. Apply warm with camel hair pencil.

Actually, I never studied this book before, but it has a vast ammount of information

I hope it may help
Adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Cool info on those pages Adam.

I honestly think that every manufacturer had their own way of achieving the desired and required result no matter what the case material was.

Some lasted longer than others and a lot of them looked different. (thin and thick, smooth and rough).

They probably weren't looking for nor did they actually have a "perfect finish" like a brand new car has (but duller).

They simply wanted to dull the case so a sniper could not pick you off from across "no-man's land".


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Cool info on those pages Adam.
> 
> I honestly think that every manufacturer had their own way of achieving the desired and required result no matter what the case material was.
> 
> ...


I agree, each company would have experimented with different formulae. Depollier was a jeweler, he would have a lot of experience with all types of metals and stones.

I think, they strived for a perfect finish, and what they wanted to achieve in a few hours what mother nature does naturally over time, that said how many people would buy a 'tarnished' item, new from a shop!

Just my thoughts.
Its interesting.
Adam


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> BUT, these are Depollier's EXACT words (1917), verbatim: "The watch to be used in the trenches should have a dark finished silver case".
> 
> Something was done to them by Depollier but I'll be damned if I can figure it out.
> 
> ...


No laptop pie for me then.

I've yet to see a pic of an example of a confirmed factory finished black silver watch, 
Without the original to compare then how can we debate and hope to recreate the original finish?

edit
I'm sure those cases would turn blacker and more even given a few days rather than hours.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Without the original to compare then how can we debate and hope to recreate the original finish?


Ask the likes of Stephen Hawking - of course we can debate items that we know or believe existed without having one in our example.

That said, I doubt Stan ever saw a black 'painted' silver case. He genuinely thought he did, but as his experiments proved, it really was probably just tarnish.

Does that mean, Depollier never made any with a tarnished (black) effect? Why not, they surely made nickel ones, and I got no doubt they tried it with silver.

_*"There are far more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."*_ ---------- The emphasis here should be on "dreamt of", as Hamlet is pointing out how little even the most educated people can explain.

Regards
adam

A


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Ask the likes of Stephen Hawking - of course we can debate items that we know or believe existed without having one in our example.
> 
> That said, I doubt Stan ever saw a black 'painted' silver case. He genuinely thought he did, but as his experiments proved, it really was probably just tarnish.
> 
> ...


Good post, but I ask myself why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to turn it black?
We have saw base metal examples and they make more sense.

It has been suggested, that in times of war, a scarcity or shortfall in certain metals might have made this viable, surely
this could be researched and if the 'processed' silver turned out to be cheaper than painted brass or nickel then that could make sense.

Maybe some were made, I don't know, my point is how can it be possible to accurately finish a watch using guesswork as to
what it what it might have been like when new.

If there is no trace of such a factory finish present on a watch under restoration then how can one be certain that it was
originaly sold with a black finish to the gov military spec or was originaly sold as a silver watch?
Would it be OK to give such a watch the military spec treatment anyway?

It doesn't sit well that I might be a party to a process which involves turning genuine old tarnished silver trenchwatches into 'military spec' restored
watches based on guess work and a sentence from an unknown source.

To me at least, the close examination of an original would be essential.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

My brother works in silver - and I have seen him achieve a deep, even black with liver of sulphur. I will have to ask him how he does it...



> Hamlet is pointing out how little even the most educated people can explain


I'll see your Shakespeare and raise you a Mark Twain..."I never let schooling interfere with my education".

Stan...glad you adjustments worked out - amazing the trickle down effects of springing and age...


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Good post, but I ask myself why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to turn it black?
> We have saw base metal examples and they make more sense.
> 
> It has been suggested, that in times of war, a scarcity or shortfall in certain metals might have made this viable, surely
> ...


This is from post #128:

Then there is the "honesty" factor.

If the case has remnants of an original black finish I would not have any qualms about re-doing the black finish.

BUT, if the case never had a black finish I would not put a black finish on it, I just don't roll like that.

That is making it out to be something that it never was, which I would not do.

There is a MAJOR difference between restoration and creation!

The black case pictured above originally did have a black finish, but only remnants of it still remained when it first arrived on my bench.

The only reason I am going to experiment with the Liver of Sulfer and Black Max is to see if it can be done because I want to know how it was done about 100 years ago.

I have no intention of mass producing these finishes.

Once again, only if it originally had a black finish would I ever restore that way!

Reputation and integrity are far more important to me then earning a quick buck!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Me? I am for the "quick buck"!
Some body told me once "money does not buy happiness" - I realize now, they just do not know which shops to buy at! LOL


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

A late entry from me: the greater the swing of the balance (within limits), the better since it will be more accurate. However, too much and it will hit the outside of the lever fork ("knocking the banking") and provide very erratic rates (watch gains a lot inside 24 hours - something like +1 to 2 hours!) and also risk shattering the transmission stone. An arc of ca. 300° is ideal.

In practice, friction effects will make it difficult to attain that when friction increases, e.g. in the hanging positions (balance staff rests on both ends) vs. the lying positions (balance rests more or less only on one end). Even in those positions, you expect at least 270° on a modern watch with perfect mainspring though. Over the decades, the mainspring can wear out and repeated servicing can put minute kinks into the spring so that it no longer functions well. In addition, modern methods and materials of course make it possible to produce better mainsprings than those made 100 years ago.

Hartmut Richter


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Good post, but I ask myself why use a precious metal like silver if you are going to turn it black?
> We have saw base metal examples and they make more sense.


They used gold and silver for the temperature characteristic - we see this clearly in the 1916/17 Depollier with the hermetic case.
Black paint nickel BUT a gold disk on the back, to help shield the movement from heat from the wrist.

This was a time of experimenting Radger.

So to me, silver is a very appropriate material. But it shines, hence to dull it!

Why that early book of mine gives 2 formulae to darken silver (and they have it for gold too!) - Why??
a


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

For some reason or another I decided to put the Depollier case that had been treated in the Arbe polishing machine again just to see what would happen.

The color got a bit darker and the finish is much more even now.

There are a couple of spots on this bezel where I really pushed it onto the wheel hard just to see what would happen so some spots look a bit weird but I did that intentionally.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> They used gold and silver for the temperature characteristic - we see this clearly in the 1916/17 Depollier with the hermetic case.
> Black paint nickel BUT a gold disk on the back, to help shield the movement from heat from the wrist.


I dont see that this argument applies or has any relevence whatsoever.



HOROLOGIST007 said:


> This was a time of experimenting Radger.


Thank you for this insight into those far off turbulent times.



HOROLOGIST007 said:


> So to me, silver is a very appropriate material. But it shines, hence to dull it!


Hundreds of thousands of silver trenchwatches were worn during WW1, it was indeed a very appropriate
material. You could blacken it as much as you like but you wouldn't stop the radium dial and hands shining like
a beacon.



HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Why that early book of mine gives 2 formulae to darken silver (and they have it for gold too!) - Why??
> a


Silver smiths have known about and used these techniques for years to highlight or contrast their work as required.

You phrase the question as a suggestion that the two formulae must have been given specifically so watchmakers could
turn silver watch cases black! very strange.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

> Originally Posted by *HOROLOGIST007*_They used gold and silver for the temperature characteristic - we see this clearly in the 1916/17 Depollier with the hermetic case.
> Black paint nickel BUT a gold disk on the back, to help shield the movement from heat from the wrist.
> 
> _
> ...


That is a pity, as it is fact, and a closed mind is a terrible thing.

Do you deny Depollier put a gold disc on their watches?


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> This is from post #128:
> 
> Then there is the "honesty" factor.
> 
> ...


That is excellent to hear and I'm all for experimenting.

In all your experience, how many silver cased watches have you came across which had remnants of or "originally had a black finish"?

and

Do you have any before pictures of these watches so as we can see the finish that you are trying
to achieve?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

> Hundreds of thousands of silver trenchwatches were worn during WW1, it was indeed a very appropriate
> material. You could blacken it as much as you like but you wouldn't stop the radium dial and hands shining like
> a beacon.


Actually the US WWI Army wrist watch specification Nov 1917 does NOT call for bright radium dials BUt "a small round spot"

a


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> That is a pity, as it is fact, and a closed mind is very sad.
> 
> Do you deny Depollier put a gold disc on their watches?


No Adam, I do not deny that Depollier put gold heatsinks on the back of certain watchcases.
I accept that as a fact so maybe I'm not so sad as you think.

An irrational mind is a sorrier state methinks.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Actually the US WWI Army wrist watch specification Nov 1917 does NOT call for bright radium dials BUt "a small round spot"
> 
> a


Well that type of trenchwatch, silver or otherwise is certainly in the minority, would you agree?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Well that type of trenchwatch, silver or otherwise is certainly in the minority, would you agree?


 I can not agree or disagree.
The specification calls for a "dark case" - that is a fact, but it does NOT call for an over bright luminous display - actually it states small luminous dots.

Hence my reason for spending 3 days searching the US Army wristwatch requirement.

Actually it states a lot of very sensible points - maybe its time to post it!
Adam


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by *radger*  
Well that type of trenchwatch, silver or otherwise is certainly in the minority, would you agree?



HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I can not agree or disagree.


I don't see why not, surely you have your experience of early wristwatches to call on so as you
can make an informed judgement.

The type with the large radium numerals and fully lumed military cathedral hands, is by far the most common
type of trench watch made for WW1 military use, take my word for it.

If they are not I will eat my laptop.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

There were at LEAST 3 different General Specifications for Wrist Watches set out by the US Army during the Great War.

1914, 1916 and 1918. (maybe mid to late 1917 as well, but I need more data to be able to say that for certain).

If you follow the progression of the American Trench Watch and know exactly what came out and when it came out you will be able to follow the spec as it was changed and upgraded. 

The Shadow Box dial (1917) was by far the most popular dial in use, but it did not start out that way, in the beginning the BOLD Arabic dials (1914) were used.

In 1918 the dial was changed again and was required to be black in color along with a semi-hermetic case.

Cases also changed in the spec as technology improved from 1914 - 1918, these advances were adopted into the spec as they became available, like semi-hermetic cases.

I even know for sure what watch models different branches of the US Army were wearing. Infantry & Calvary and in what years.

This is all the puzzle that had to be pieced back together, you will never find this information in one place (except my book, LOL!), years of research and clues had to be figured out, complied and analyzed.

Even with as much as I do know I still thirst for more knowledge and answers, it will be a never ending quest until the day I pass on to the next life.

Hopefully all of the answers will be waiting there for me that I didn't figure out while I was vertical ! ! ! !


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

How interesting Stan! 

Makes me wonder if my Dennison that is all tarnished as we thought could of been done like this. Perhaps.. Perhaps not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Okay, I may have an answer here.

Adam's excellent find in the "Cyclopedia Of Valuable Information" shows us a formula for oxidising silver.
This brought up a memory of something so I went searching in my adverts.
Here we have several British ads from the first world war, showing that cases were available in "oxydised" or "oxydized" options. One for the Submarine watch shows silver cases available 'burnished' or 'oxydised' as well as a pocket alarm watch that is available in an oxydised case.
This might explain the silver or other metal cases we see that are not painted, but have a much darker finish than usual.





























Here we even have the "Army" smetal band available in oxydised silver.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Bobbee,

That "submarine" black dial watch looks exactly like my Dennison. The picture shows a black dial, knurling on the edge of the bezel and a stubby squarish winding crown. And it says it came in a "burnished" or "oxidised" finish.

Looks just like this to me.. my Dennison is without a doubt, darker than anything else i've seen and has a thin distinct black all over it. Its worn through in parts.. but there's plenty of it left.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Brilliant Bobbee.

The pocket alarms which came in oxidised cases would most likely be the
type of case sometimes refered to as gunmetal, oxidised iron/steel cases which
are black.

The submarine advert, on the other hand, is clear cut evidence that silver cased trench
watches could be bought with an oxidised finish...pre tarnished in fact.

Nice one


Edit
re-reading the ad for the Submarine ad I see that the oxidised silver option is for the wristlet strap
rather than for the watch itself...oh well.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Are you sure its referring to JUST the band? I sharpened the imagine a little and read the whole lot, and it doesn't state that the tarnishing is for the band, the watch, or both.

However, even if it were to be just the band, what's to say they weren't also doing the cases?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Looking again, Radger is correct and the description is for the band.
Nick also is correct.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

28A said:


> Are you sure its referring to JUST the band? I sharpened the imagine a little and read the whole lot, and it doesn't state that the tarnishing is for the band, the watch, or both.
> 
> However, even if it were to be just the band, what's to say they weren't also doing the cases?


Yes, I am sure.

If you read the advert you will see that the submarine watch with leather band is priced at four pounds
and ten shillings.
Below this, they are selling the 'oxydised silver wristlet' at one pound and four shillings, this is an extra.

'They' may well have offered to oxidise the case for the buyer at the retail outlet if that is what he required.
If the manufacturer offered that option we would expect to see it on the adverts...notice that the oxidised option
for the silver bracelet costs more money!

If there was demand they would be offered no doubt, there were cheaper black options in iron or base metals.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Do you think mine might be this submarine watch? Or just a dennison with a black dial?


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

28A said:


> Do you think mine might be this submarine watch? Or just a dennison with a black dial?


Can't see any sign that your watch was ever branded such. 
Your watch is an excellent example of a rare black faced trench watch in great original condition.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Okay, I may have an answer here.
> 
> Adam's excellent find in the "Cyclopedia Of Valuable Information" shows us a formula for oxidising silver.
> This brought up a memory of something so I went searching in my adverts.
> ...


Excellent detective work and memory. 
I think that is another piece of evidence that these silver watches were never painted, but either 'oxidised' to force them dark or indeed just nature over time turning them dark.
It is worth remembering that the US Army spec calls for "dark cases" but also "US movements" so these watches could not be purchased by the US army, but the spec explains that watches bought privately could use SWISS movements.

I am sure the oxidization would cover if requested both the strap and the case, indeed I wonder why anyone would want a black tarnished strap on a bright silver shining case?

Once again, very astute detective work
Thanks
adam


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

I agree with you Adam, who would want a shiny case and a ****ty old looking strap unless it was for a specific purpose and the case was done too?

I'm just curious about my Dennison because while it doesn't have any branding on the dial.. it's exactly like the one in the ad (actually besides the different seconds hand..). It has black dial, Dennison case, tarnishing.. 

But what you mentioned Adam about Swiss movements.. got me thinking. My watch has a Swiss movement, however it's negative set like a U.S watch so perhaps the movement was destined for the U.S, or the entire watch with the case went to the U.S and ended up back in the UK where i bought it from?

I know i'm not the most experienced or knowledgeable on the subject compared to guys like Adam, Stan ect.. but it kinda seems to me like my Dennison is stacking up some good points that seem to be leading it towards being a military watch.. or so i think..


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

28A said:


> I agree with you Adam, who would want a shiny case and a ****ty old looking strap unless it was for a specific purpose and the case was done too?
> 
> I'm just curious about my Dennison because while it doesn't have any branding on the dial.. it's exactly like the one in the ad (actually besides the different seconds hand..). It has black dial, Dennison case, tarnishing..
> 
> ...


Hi Nick
You have a nice watch, no doubt about it.
Was it a "military' piece? Possible. Did it see active service in the trenches? Possible. We just do not know.

What I do believe is yours is not a 'SUBMARINE' watch, in this case (unlike the one on David Boetcher excellent site) because that was just a clever marketing name by Smiths - your watch does not have that (sadly) on the dial (like the one in the advert).

There are 1000s of watches similar yo yours all termed 'trench' watches, most never saw a 'trench' in their lives.

Just enjoy your piece, for what it is, an early WWI so called 'trench' watch - without provenance.

adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Okay, I may have an answer here.
> 
> Adam's excellent find in the "Cyclopedia Of Valuable Information" shows us a formula for oxidising silver.
> This brought up a memory of something so I went searching in my adverts.
> ...


VERY good work gentlemen ! ! ! ! ! !

TOP SHELF ! ! ! ! !

Adam with the formula evidence and Bobbee with these adverts that back up my Depollier docs.

Question for Bobbee.

Do you happen to have dates for these adverts perhaps?

I'd love to try and pin down when oxidizing sterling silver cases began for my records.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

I'm not phased either way really, i'm sure it probably did see some trench action on the wrist of a military fella.. but if not, it's okay. 

I do find it really interesting seeing stuff like that ad and how similar it was to mine. It may not be exact, but it is kinda close..

Believe me Adam, i certainly will be enjoying it soon


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The first watch is another Depollier case with this type of black finish.

This Depollier case is EXTREMELY RARE, swivel lugs with the crown at the 3 o'clock position, it's the ONLY Depollier case with this configuration that I've ever seen.

Almost ALWAYS Depollier cases with swivel lugs have the crown at the 12 o'clock position.

Second watch is the 1917 C.W. Edmunds Waltham Depollier Khaki Trench Watch with the black finish so we can see all of them together.

Third watch is a Waltham with a Joesph Fahys cushion case with this type of black finish.

All three of these watches are sterling silver and all three of these watches are from 1917.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Stan, the ads all date between 1914-1918, but I have found evidence in US newspapers of oxidised silver watch cases and other silver jewelry as early as the 1870's, (ladies watches 1880's).
To be sure the cases are all oxidised on purpose, I believe that the interior as well as the exterior of the case will have full oxidisation.

Here is an Omega in a black case, 1918 Stars & Stripes advert.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Here is one for you!

Dated August 12, 1906 ! ! !

The original "Army and Navy Register" magazine currently resides in the Cornell University Library in New York state.

The case does not look like this due to bad print copy, it actually looks this way in the original copy of the magazine.

DON'T go on a wild goose chase trying to look up The Gorham Company in New York!

I spent more time on this one than I'd ever admit and NO answers were found about this case that is clearly black.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Scott, so sorry for totally hijacking your thread.
But, if you hadn't started it all the questions (in Stan's case interrogations, sorry Stan!), and investigations that have now uncovered the truth about these ( once thought to be) "painted" silver cased trenchies would maybe not have come up for months, possibly years!

So a thanks from me for the thread to Scott, another for Stan for the postings of watches/new info/ads, another for Adam for his research, and another for Radger for his unceasing delving for facts versus fiction!
And cheers to all other contributors!

Regards, Bob.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Scott, so sorry for totally hijacking your thread.
> But, if you hadn't started it all the questions (in Stan's case interrogations, sorry Stan!), and investigations that have now uncovered the truth about these ( once thought to be) "painted" silver cased trenchies would maybe not have come up for months, possibly years!
> 
> So a thanks from me for the thread to Scott, another for Stan for the postings of watches/new info/ads, another for Adam for his research, and another for Radger for his unceasing delving for facts versus fiction!
> ...


Bob - NO WORRIES & THANKS !!

I'm pretty mellow plus it's Sunday reading the newspaper in front of the fire - so it's impossible to jack a thread I started - as I hijacked it for the Eberhard 'franken' side trip anyway - it's trench watches galore and I know you, Adam, Stan and Radger are only trying to dialogue on vintage facts vs fiction !!

I was also just waiting to see what was going to happen to Radger's laptop !!

Cheers to all ! Maybe Radger is wearing his Sunday Stauffer Drs trench - cheers ! 
Scott










Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Stan, you won't find anything about the Gorham Company of New York.
Wrong country.

This NY Tribune 1905 snippet shows that Gorham's has Birmingham England silver hallmarks.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Hahaha, I'm just glad I didn't have to eat my laptop.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

radger said:


> Hahaha, I'm just glad I didn't have to eat my laptop.


I was hoping you were wrong, just for the entertainment content.
BTW, you should have a bottle of Reggae Reggae Sauce at the local P.O. awaiting pickup by now!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Here is one for you!
> 
> Dated August 12, 1906 ! ! !
> 
> ...


That is a MIGHTY early advert. Even for Europe 1906 is being one of the first adverts for a wristwatch.
I have one other 1906 (Omega) and the earliest known wristwatch advert is 1904 (Omega - that I do not have)
But consider this MIGHTY early!

STOP PRESS: This IS an American company - more to follow


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

In addition to above
GORHAM
Gorham Manufacturing Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More on Gorham

GORHAM (from Online Encyclopedia of Silver Marks)


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I just took another look at this advert, I have several of them and then I looked it up again online.

It is actually dated August 12, 1905, it is NOT 1906.

The font looks like a "6" on the page date stamp but I just went back in and TRIPLE checked it, it is in fact 1905.

This advert ran in several issues of the of the August 1905 "Army & Navy Register" magazines that came out weekly.

The FIRST one that I found was dated August 5, 1905, a couple weeks earlier than the August 12, 1905 advert.

Below is the link to the Google Books site, just copy, click and paste the link into your browser.

The advert should come right up, it is on page 15.

Now, if you scroll the up and get back to the "cover" page of that issue it will confirm the date of 1905.

Look inside of the YELLOW thin bar towards the top of the page, it shows 5 results, just click on the "next" tab to view all 3 of the wrist watch adverts from 1905.

https://books.google.com/books?id=y...watch especially for mounted officers&f=false


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> I was also just waiting to see what was going to happen to Radger's laptop !!


HaHa...Me too. I figured Radger just wanted an excuse to get a new laptop...and was going to keep putting that out there until he got it wrong.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> I just took another look at this advert, I have several of them and then I looked it up again online.
> 
> It is actually dated August 12, 1905, it is NOT 1906.
> 
> ...


1905 is AMAZING - and an American company!!
I can not open the adverts, I only get to see the top likes with yellow!

How can you expand it??


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

What is REALLY killing me about this advert is that I cannot read the name on the dial!

Anybody live near Cornell University in New York state?

Go on down there and look at the actual copy of this magazine and tell us what the dial reads!

This is a REAL men's wrist watch case with actual swivel lugs in August 1905 and the case is black, being sold as a military wrist watch!

Crazy stuff!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> What is REALLY killing me about this advert is that I cannot read the name on the dial!
> 
> Anybody live near Cornell University in New York state?
> 
> ...


It sure is. This re-writes Horology, and is the earliest 'actual surviving' advert!


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> 1905 is AMAZING - and an American company!!
> I can not open the adverts, I only get to see the top likes with yellow!
> 
> How can you expand it??


Figure it out yet?

If not give me a call and I'll walk you through it.

My phone number is on the bottom of my email signature so you should have it.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Figure it out yet?
> 
> If not give me a call and I'll walk you through it.
> 
> My phone number is on the bottom of my email signature so you should have it.


Nope
I think its because I am not in USA?


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> It sure is. This re-writes Horology, and is the earliest 'actual surviving' advert!


Do I hold the record for the EARLIEST found in the United Sates now ?

WHOOOHOOO ! ! ! ! !


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Do I hold the record for the EARLIEST found in the United Sates now ?
> 
> WHOOOHOOO ! ! ! ! !


United States AND Worldwide.
Omega has an advert in 1904 but I never found it, mine is 1906!

But, I don't think you realized the significance? ##
a) American Company
b) First ever known advert for a wristwatch albeit using a Lepine pocket movement!


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Funny thing is that I've had this advert for at least a couple of years now, found it while doing research for the Elgin Trench Watch book.

You're right, I did not even realize what it truly was until now.

My main focus has always been on WWI, not the pre-war stuff.

I just found it to be pretty cool so I saved it, really glad that I did now!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Kudos Stan, great early find.
The name on the watchlooks to have six letters to me, maybe seven.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Just had another look, zoomed right in and slowly pulled back until I could see the name.
Rough letter 'G'on the right of the tip of the hour hand, missing the next couple but quite sure of "G__H_M'S"
giving us 'GORHAM'S'.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks Bobbee!


Wait, my bad!

The earliest advert in that group of magazines is dated August 12, 1905.

I mis-read my own data, there is no August 5, 1905 advert, sorry!

The advert ran on August 12, 1905 and then once again on August 26, 1905.

It ran only twice.

SORRY!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Funny thing is that I've had this advert for at least a couple of years now, found it while doing research for the Elgin Trench Watch book.
> 
> You're right, I did not even realize what it truly was until now.
> 
> ...


Yes, the significance shows to me, as the quest for the 'beginning of the wristwatch'

I wonder why I can not open up those GOOGLR books.
Same when I found the military wristwatch spec, I found the article, but I would not let me open up, so I had to get Nancy at NAWCC library to find the magazine and copy me!
a


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Just had another look, zoomed right in and slowly pulled back until I could see the name.
> Rough letter 'G'on the right of the tip of the hour hand, missing the next couple but quite sure of "G__H_M'S"
> giving us 'GORHAM'S'.


I tried every photo shop trick in my bag that I could think of after I downloaded the picture.

I could not say for ABSOLUTE certainty what the name on the dial reads.

Maybe one of you guys can do better than me, I'm pretty good at photo shop but by no means an expert.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Thanks Bobbee!
> 
> Wait, my bad!
> 
> ...


August 12 1905 - just blew it up to check!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Stan, we both posted at the same time, so you may have missed my post about the name on the dial.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

FORGET my last post!

I just triple checked and the EARLIEST one is dated August 5, 1905.

Sorry, looks like I need another cup of coffee!

I'll post the August 5, 1905 advert in a minute.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here ya go, b&w and negative zoom.
I always try negative on hard to read text, it often shows 'em!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Personally I think that is more letters than GORHAM
But its IMpossible to read it. Sorry


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I can't get any definition on the August 5, 1905 version on page 15, it's pretty blurry!

Can someone else take a crack at it perhaps?

Thanks in advance!


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

We need a HIGH RES scan of this document from the Cornell University Library!

The name could be 6-8 letters long.

Somebody needs to give them a call tomorrow and see if they will look at the hard copy for us!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

*"GORHAM'S"* or possibly * "GORHAM Co."**













*


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

OK
Let me add.
GORHAM sold many watches from pocket watches to wristwatches.
Early pocket watch used Philadelpia Watch Case 

For wristwatches they used Longines, Movado and Jaeger-LeCoultre movements.
Dials were later marked ' BLACK, STARR & GORHAM

Still researching
a


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I have already contacted Cornell University and they have confirmed that they do in fact have the publication from August 5, 1905.

The wheels are turning.......................

I have already requested VERY high res scans from the original.

The publication is currently in their storage annex, not in one of the main libraries.

So, it is going to take a little bit of time to dig it out and get me what I need.

I will of course share this with you guys when they get it to me, especially the NAME that is on the dial, I told my contact at Cornell that being able to read the name is VERY important.

Should not take more than a few days hopefully.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I was able to find an even EARLIER version of this wrist watch advert dating back to July 29, 1905.

I found it one week earlier in the "Army and Navy Register".

I just went to the higher res source for this Gorham Company wrist watch advert.

I was able to download a PDF of the doc and I played with it for awhile.

The dial does in fact say GORHAM on it, no doubt about it.

Now that I know what the dial reads I will not pursue the Cornell University option.

I also took the time to search other volumes of the "Army and Navy Register", I looked in all of the 1902, 1903, 1904 and 1905 editions, every weekly issue of them.

This July 29, 1905 advert is absolutely the earliest date for this Gorham Company Military Wrist Watch in this publication.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Great find Stan, strange how closely the release of watches with lugs are so close in date bothe in Europe and the US!
I think those look like swivel lugs too, not wire.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yep, I have no doubt that those are swivel lugs.

I also checked the 1906, 1907, 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911 and 1912 editions of "Army and Navy Register" for the advert, it never ran again other than mid 1905 a few times.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Adverts for trench watches from the Illinois Watch Company are pretty hard to come by so I thought that I'd share this one.

It's from July 28, 1917 and it's for the Illinois "Kitchener Military Watch", gives pricing for upgraded options too like 50 cents extra for the "gun metal case".


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Here is an advert for Elgin Trench Watch featuring the Wadsworth Nickel case from 1917.

This advert is pretty cool because it talks about crystal guards.

This was the model being used by the US Army Infantry and US Army Calvary divisions in 1916 and 1917.

Shadow Box dials and BOLD Arabic dials were both available on this model.

View attachment The_Decatur_Daily_Review_Thu__Oct_4__1917_.jpg


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

This is probably my favorite trench watch advertisement of all time!

This advert features some of the most desirable American Trench Watches of all time.

It is dated 1918 and it's from a wholesaler in Chicago named N. Shure Company.

Elgin "White Star Dial" Trench Watch, model 2 dial.

Elgin "Admiral Benson" Trench Watch.

Elgin "Admiral Evans" Trench Watch.

Elgin "General Funston" Trench Watch.

Waltham Trench Watch with the 14k gold machined case back.

Hampden Trench Watch with a black dial.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Great ads Stan!

I see in the Illinois advert they are promoting the "night dial", and it states: _ "in the daylight the dial is white, the figures nd hands a beautiful blue."_

Maybe this will help in choosing a correct colour for original radium paint, a subject of much debate in the past?

Bob.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> I was able to find an even EARLIER version of this wrist watch advert dating back to July 29, 1905.I found it one week earlier in the "Army and Navy Register".I just went to the higher res source for this Gorham Company wrist watch advert.I was able to download a PDF of the doc and I played with it for awhile.The dial does in fact say GORHAM on it, no doubt about it.Now that I know what the dial reads I will not pursue the Cornell University option.I also took the time to search other volumes of the "Army and Navy Register", I looked in all of the 1902, 1903, 1904 and 1905 editions, every weekly issue of them.This July 29, 1905 advert is absolutely the earliest date for this Gorham Company Military Wrist Watch in this publication.
> View attachment 3059522


OkThis is surely "A Company Ahead of its Time"They came across a unique idea in 1904 or 1905 - the 'wrist watch' advertised three times and then probably with zero result (same as Europe) dropped the idea for eternity.The company traded and filed patents under "Gorham MFG Company" - they have 24 US patents files in Switzerland going back to 1905 - but no wristwatch strap, there is watch box patented but no strap.In US they were prolific in patents, but again I found nothing for the wrist watch or strap.Not sure where to try next.adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I spent quite a bit of time on Gorham awhile back when I found this advert and like I said I didn't come up with much, if anything.

Don't drive yourself crazy with this one!

GREAT IDEA!

But, they were just too far ahead of the times for their own good, probably didn't sell many of them so they dropped it.

Very good theory which I just happen to concur with.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> First, please drop the "renowned" - Thanks.
> OK
> Let me add what I think
> Dial is reworked.
> ...


Epilogue to An 'Eberhard 'Franken'' - sorry to interrupt the great discussion on painting trench watches, the earliest wrist watch advert and Radger's laptop !

The followup auction for the 'Eberhard' completed and the EB bidder who was second to me originally got it for $600 less now that I didn't bid - I guess I'm worth '$600' !!!

Cheers - now back to Radger's well known, hall marked, advertised and 'painted' Laptop ! Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> I spent quite a bit of time on Gorham awhile back when I found this advert and like I said I didn't come up with much, if anything.
> 
> Don't drive yourself crazy with this one!
> 
> ...


"MANY"? I bet they never sold one.
Try finding a photo of any man wearing a wristwatch (conventional) prior to 1910!
Mainly wristlets and they are British!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Epilogue to An 'Eberhard 'Franken'' - sorry to interrupt the great discussion on painting trench watches, the earliest wrist watch advert and Radger's laptop !
> 
> The followup auction for the 'Eberhard' completed and the EB bidder who was second to me originally got it for $600 less now that I didn't bid - I guess I'm worth '$600' !!!
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Mmm! There is a moral to be learnt from that


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

A little more patience if my 'vintage watch buddies' please - as I go back 'off thread'.....

Found this Moser Rattrapannte chrono which looked like a pocket watch conversion to me ??

Couldn't get hallmark pics - movement unsigned with the usual Moser 'inverted V' - saw this watch because I was looking at the nice Eberhard below -thoughts on the Moser ?

I think they 'busted' right after the revolution ?

Cheers, Scott




























[Original text content restored by moderator]


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Scott
Why you do not start a new thread?
This thread has gone from Literustyfan book-->Your Eberhard Saga--> to an excellent discussion on 'black cases'.

I can not understand why you want to hijack it off track again.
Neither of those watches are "Trench watches of the Great War" - or any war!
Sorry but that is just my feeling.

And yes its a pocket watch conversion, the bottom crown does nothing, just to 'show'
adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Okay sorry to post this .....


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Okay sorry to post this .....
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Post away.
But in my opinion it was as appropriate here as it was in the inscriptions thread?

Maybe its me, but better to start a new appropriate threads
a


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Is there any other evidence to suggest the blue radium hands and dial? What do you blokes think?

Could look pretty good blue and white..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

This thread just gets better and better,Lrf congrats on finding the earliest known wrist watch advert.
Some adverts you post got me thinking though,did they ever advertise the trench watch with the darkened crystal(either in military or civilian publications),if so,do you have one of these ads that you can share with us.Also can some one clarify my thinking,it seems they already had the ideal blackened case with the seal leather clad pocket watch,why not continue with this idea,were they failing in the wet,muddy conditions that they were used in?


Edit:Ok,i think i found an answer in the gorham advert where it states "no more leather pocket to come apart with exposer to rain" i guess what i`m driving at with these questions is,was the adaption of wire lugs born because the wristlets with leather pockets failed in the rain,is this a safe assumption,or am i missing something?(intelligence,memory,a brain perhaps)


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Apollonaught said:


> This thread just gets better and better,Lrf congrats on finding the earliest known wrist watch advert.
> Some adverts you post got me thinking though,did they ever advertise the trench watch with the darkened crystal(either in military or civilian publications),if so,do you have one of these ads that you can share with us.Also can some one clarify my thinking,it seems they already had the ideal blackened case with the seal leather clad pocket watch,why not continue with this idea,were they failing in the wet,muddy conditions that they were used in?
> 
> Edit:Ok,i think i found an answer in the gorham advert where it states "no more leather pocket to come apart with exposer to rain" i guess what i`m driving at with these questions is,was the adaption of wire lugs born because the wristlets with leather pockets failed in the rain,is this a safe assumption,or am i missing something?


Thanks!

That 1905 advert is pretty darn cool!

Yes, the darkened crystals were in advertised by Depollier and yes, I have some of them.

But no, I won't post these on the forum, saving that for my next book, sorry!

Those giant leather wristlets were probably rather uncomfortable due to their size if you ask me.

And if they got wet out in the field it would make them even more uncomfortable, smelly and heavier.

Unless the case was semi-hermetic moisture could seep into the case if that giant leather wristlet strap became wet which is never a good thing.

Removing the wristlet strap, inventing some lugs and a thin leather strap was a great idea and probably natural progression as the flaws of the wristlet strap because evident.

But, some folks liked that strap and it was sold for about 35 years give or take. (I'm no expert on these wristlet straps so I'm sure Adam or Bobbee could tighten that number up for me).

A pocket watch in warfare was just to cumbersome to use, had to dig around in your pocket for it.


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks Lrf for the clarification,so it was a change brought about through the new way being better than the old way,i asked because i see a mix of both wristlet and fixed lug types in the photo`s i find right up to the great war.I guess i`ll have to wait for the book to come out before i see the darkened crystal watch,but that`s cool.

Regards,
AP


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

"Cravenette" webbing straps actually came in four colours on the Waltham "Khaki" watch, khaki green, blue, white, and black.

1918 ad snippet.


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Hmmmmm....stronger and more comfortable sounds like silk?B


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> "Cravenette" webbing straps actually came in four colours on the Waltham "Khaki" watch, khaki green, blue, white, and black.
> 
> 1918 ad snippet.
> 
> View attachment 3076538


In 1917 Depollier had an exclusive deal with The Cravenette Company for their process and trademark in connection with their treatment for use on straps.

It keeps the straps from shrinking and keeps them moisture-proof, sort of like a Scotch-guard product probably.

The Illinois Watch Case Company and J.F. Sturdy's Sons Company also had multi colored straps available


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Thanks!
> 
> That 1905 advert is pretty darn cool!
> 
> ...


Yes the advert is an excellent find in Horology, it completely changes the picture of where the first 'conventional' wristwatch came from, but actually it sadly never changed the dates/facts of when Europe and USA started to successfully advertise and sell wristwatches.



> But, some folks liked that strap and it was sold for about 35 years give or take.


*For certain Borgel cased watches were manufactured and sold well in to the 30s - but i do not think 'leather pocket watch converters'.
We see these from the earliest current photo of 1879, through Boer war (1899-1902), culminating in WWI
But by the 1920 even fixed lug cases were moving to spring lugs, and by mid 1920s (1927) the wristwatch, as we know and love to day was a way of live.*

*This is the oldest (latest) advert in my collection for a 'leather pocket watch converter' dated Sept 1918:*


*Here is an Ingersoll one also February 1918*


*By then we had pocket watches with soldered lugs: Here is my 1895 Omega, converted probably around 1915?
*


*We even had these ingenious shrapnel guards to modify a pocket watch into a wristwatch with a conventional strap.
Here is one patented 1917 by MEALY.
*



So, I do not think leather pocket watch converters lasted into the 20s in any great scale. I am not saying they were abandoned over night late from 1920, but few and far between were used as the lugged wristwatch took over.



> A pocket watch in warfare was just to cumbersome to use, had to dig around in your pocket for it.


Absolutely 100% correct.
A pistol in one hand (to shoot anyone who refused to go over the top), a whistle to blow for 'zero hour' no chance of a pocket watch too.

Regards
adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I was just in contact with the people over at Cornell University a few moments ago and I have decided to go ahead and have them work their magic on the Gorham Wrist Watch advert from July 29, 1905.

I'm sure that the students at an "Ivy League" school will be able to remaster this advertisement better than any of us ever could.

Their talent, facilities and equipment are probably second to none I would imagine.

Their hourly labor rate is a tad high but due to the importance of this doc I feel that it's worth it.

Keep in mind that this is basically newspaper print from 110 years ago and they will only be able to do so much with it.

Either way it will look nice framed and hung on my shop wall.

Should have it in three days..........................


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

Nice...I am glad you are going ahead with it. Think about your third book - "The origin of the modern wristwatch and its evolution in warfare"...You'll want the ad for that.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I'll see your 1918 and raise you an 1898!

The Jeweler's Circular. November 2, 1898 edition, page 80.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Paleotime said:


> Nice...I am glad you are going ahead with it. Think about your third book - "The origin of the modern wristwatch and its evolution in warfare"...You'll want the ad for that.


I told myself that I would not write a third book, at least for SEVERAL more years.

LOL!

Taking a long break after the Waltham book!

I plan on doing some fishing for awhile...................


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> I'll see your 1918 and raise you an 1898!
> 
> The Jeweler's Circular. November 2, 1898 edition, page 80.
> 
> View attachment 3079241


Stan
I have plenty adverts and photos BEFORE 1918, but none after that date.
1898 is typical advertising for leather pocket watch converters


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I thought today's finds might interest you guys, a 1920 poem called '_Requiem_' in honour of the American Expeditionary Force of WW1.









And to lighten the mood, a rare cartoon with wrist watches.
This is from August 1927, and was featured in a piece of fiction about two friends' attempt at camping!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Please do not wipe the entire content of your post retrospectively - especially after it has been answered to. Among other things, it violates Forum Rule 14 ("Members are free to leave but not change the course of the discussion.....")

Hartmut Richter


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Hartmut - sorry if this is directed at me, I sent you a PM - I only responded to the other comments that the watches I posted were 'off-thread' and wasn't familiar with the rule - sorry again, it won't happen again, Scott

PS -- the post in the other thread was just a mistake, so sorry for that as well.........Scott


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

This snippet from an Arizona newspaper from 1907 shows that it was a British military regulation to wear wrist watches.

From the wording, it seems to imply past practices, possibly to the Boer War or before?
Edit-"pocketing" possibly refers to a regulation against putting one's hands in one's pockets, so this would lead to the need for a wrist watch.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> This snippet from an Arizona newspaper from 1907 shows that it was a British military regulation to wear wrist watches.
> 
> From the wording, it seems to imply past practices, possibly to the Boer War or before?
> 
> View attachment 3099482


Interesting but strange article.

"ring watches would supersede ladies wristwatches" Really?

"British Army 'Regulation". 'Regulation', where?

Then it talks about "pocketing" and a wrist '*snap*' watch?????

To me (personally) its meaningless - BUT thanks for posting it!

Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

This was a snippet from a much larger article concerning ring watches.
If you read the edit to my post above, you will see the meaning of 'pocketing'.
A 'snap' is a type of fastener.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> This was a snippet from a much larger article concerning ring watches.
> If you read the edit to my post above, you will see the meaning of 'pocketing'.
> A 'snap' is a type of fastener.


Thanks your additional explanation.
Regards
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Right, this one is pretty damn' cool.
I have *never* seen one of this exact type before, it looks like a completely new design!
'Patent applied for', wonder if it was granted? Adam, you are best at finding patents I think!

New York Tribune, May 28, 1918.

Close-up.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

LOL
At first I thought it was a toilet seat.
I have seen the style a few times.
Actually it was revived in the 60s/70s for boy scouts and outdoor people!
Will look for patents.

Emre actually is the very best, I am good if its obvious.

A


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

> I have seen the style a few times.


What, with the watch fitted _into the cover?_
I have never seen one, do you have any pictures/adverts?

Cheers, Bob.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

No, but I am 100% sure you will find modern ones too.
i will look for patent too.
regards
a


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

No to " not seen one" or "no, not got pics"?

I have seen loads and loads of the ones with a cover over the watch, but this is the first of this style, not seen a modern one either, and I do look!

Best, Bob.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> View attachment 3104690
> 
> 
> .


Interesting:
Papers Past - Manawatu Standard - 20 January 1910 - THE CASE OF CAPTAIN KNYVETT.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Right, this one is pretty damn' cool.
> I have *never* seen one of this exact type before, it looks like a completely new design!
> 'Patent applied for', wonder if it was granted? Adam, you are best at finding patents I think!
> 
> ...


Here is the patent:
*US 1309988 A
*WRIST WATCH.
APPLICATION FILED APR. 16. 1918.
1 ,309,988. Patented July 15, 1919.
gwuentoz REGINALD n. xmrvfarr, or new YORK, N. Y.
WRIST-WAT CH.
Specification of Letters Patent.
Patented July 15, 1919.
Application filed April 16, 1918. Serial No. 228,957.
To all whom it may concern:
Be it known that I, REGINAID H. KNYVE'I'I,
a subject of the King of England, residing at New York city, in the county of New York and State of New York, have invented new and useful Improvements in Wrist-Watches,of which the following is a specification. This invention relates to devices for supporting a watch on the wrist of the person, and its object is to provide a novel and improved support for the watch which is so constructed that the watch is effectually protected from breakage, exposure to the elements, etc.
The object stated is attained by means of a combination and arrangement of parts to be hereinafter described and claimed, and in order that the same may be better understood, reference is had to the accompanying drawing forming a part of this specification.

FULL DETAILS HERE
https://www.google.com/patents/US13...&sa=X&ei=ko7vVJyFAYHbUOm-gPgJ&ved=0CB4Q6wEwAA


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Very nasty bit of "old boy" stuff!

Just found this on there, regarding Baden-Powell's book: _"The Matabele Campaign of 1896."

_Papers Past - Star - 10 October 1899 - THE EQUIPMENT FOR AFRICAN CAMPAIGNING.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Posted the patent above.
We may have crossed.
Very cool
good work 
adam


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Very nasty bit of "old boy" stuff!
> 
> Just found this on there, regarding Baden-Powell's book: _"The Matabele Campaign of 1896."
> 
> _Papers Past â€" Star â€" 10 October 1899 â€" THE EQUIPMENT FOR AFRICAN CAMPAIGNING.


Makes sense.
I have many photos of Baden Powell wearing a wristlet from 1898.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I own these two!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Good find Adam!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks
Emre is the King on patent searches - _ am a novice compared.

Thanks
adam


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Here are some modern versions of those wristwatch covers;
Military WW2 Style Leather Watch Strap Band wif Cover Fit Wire Lug 18mm or Above | eBay


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes Adam, I have seen many of these, but never before have I seen one with the watch set in the cover itself, very unique and totally new to me.
Can't find any other ads for it yet either!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Yes Adam, I have seen many of these, but never before have I seen one with the watch set in the cover itself, very unique and totally new to me.
> Can't find any other ads for it yet either!


Ah OK.
Actually I am doing some research into early wristlets, and will start a new thread with my findings
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

28A said:


> Is there any other evidence to suggest the blue radium hands and dial? What do you blokes think?
> 
> Could look pretty good blue and white..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here is something from the Wiki definition of radioluminescent paint:



> Radium paint used zinc-sulphide phosphor, doped with copper for green light, silver for blue-green light, and more rarely copper-magnesium for a yellowy orange light.


So not just blue, but green, blue/green and yellow/orange.
Quite a choice!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

This interesting snippet from a July 1918 Dakota newspaper.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Here is the re-mastered copy of the July 29, 1905 Gorham Wrist Watch advertisement that was especially designed for mounted officers.

The fine people at Cornell University did a wonderful job in my opinion, the dial can now actually be read, "GORHAM CO".

Without a doubt it had swivel lugs and a double hinged case.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

This is a JPEG image file, the TIFF file is just a bit more clear but I can't post TIFF files onto the forum, sorry.


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## Paleotime (Apr 7, 2008)

> "the best that has ever been constructed for this purpose"


Implying that others have been constructed for that purpose.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Paleotime said:


> Implying that others have been constructed for that purpose.


Not necessarily.
It is the best (and possible the first) for that application

OR
copared to a leather wristlet?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> Here is the re-mastered copy of the July 29, 1905 Gorham Wrist Watch advertisement that was especially designed for mounted officers.
> 
> The fine people at Cornell University did a wonderful job in my opinion, the dial can now actually be read, "GORHAM CO".
> 
> ...


All I can say, is that its an outstanding find, that changes our knowledge of Horology.
It is up there with the 1816 Louis Moinet - First chronograph, or my find 1879 of a first photo of an officer wearing a wristlet.

This find is in that league in my opinion

Adam


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

All I can say, is that its an outstanding find, that changes our knowledge of Horology.
It is up there with the 1816 Louis Moinet - First chronograph, or my find 1879 of a first photo of an officer wearing a wristlet.

This find is in that league in my opinion

Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Not necessarily.
> It is the best (and possible the first) for that application
> 
> OR
> copared to a leather wristlet?


Aren't you forgetting the 1905 Simplex patented strap for a lugged watch?
Used by Ingersoll, but it had to have been invented to fit an _existing watch design._
And that design _*must have had lugs!*_
There has to be an earlier lugged watch out there, not necessarily the Omega.

Great resolution on that advert Stan!

Edit-apologies, the Simplex design was for a pocket watch, and was patented in 1908, not 1905.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Aren't you forgetting the 1905 Simplex patented strap for a lugged watch?
> Used by Ingersoll, but it had to have been invented to fit an _existing watch design._
> And that design _*must have had lugs!*_
> There has to be an earlier lugged watch out there, not necessarily the Omega.
> ...


And the watch was 1912!
I am looking for my original post on it, as I have that piece.
A


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

It was in the 'earliest photograph' thread, somewhere around post 120 I think?
I _did_ apologise!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Found this ad from 1903.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi all
Just arrived at Museum.
First thing the library archives staff pointed me to was Stan's book 'Trench watches of the Great war.

I spent a brief 10 minutes looking at it and it is a 'magnificent' job, truly magnificent.

I will fully read it over next days, the librarian also felt it was a first book in that field.

Outstanding work.

adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Hi all
> Just arrived at Museum.
> First thing the library archives staff pointed me to was Stan's book 'Trench watches of the Great war.
> 
> ...


Adam - we thought you guys were 'buddies' and you didn't pre-order a signed copy? !! cheers SDA


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> Adam - we thought you guys were 'buddies' and you didn't pre-order a signed copy? !! cheers SDA


HaHa
No such thing as "buddies" - actually Stan and I were not friends at all for 2 - 3 years.

That said, I waited to arrive USa prior to ordering a copy, to save postage.
I have ordered it now.

Regards
adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Adam - yes I think we discussed this in the past in the context of 'purism' vs 'revitalisation' ! I was kidding anyway, SDA 


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Adam - not much to do in Columbia Pa at night ? Population 10,400.....have fun ! 


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Thinking on past threads, and the content of some reminded me of something I remembered seeing, but thought little of at the time.
It was the Depollier in a black painted case that had us all in a high state, and I remembered an advert and the description of the case that brought to mind all the talk of black cases and how this was achieved in this thread.
Here is the ad in question, and we see now that in fact these cases are not painted, but are in fact _*OXIDIZED!*_
So, now we know how the finish on these rare cases was achieved, not by painting but oxidisation of the case.
Sorted.


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Well done Bobee, Give that man a Ceeegar, Proof from the time, Can't argue with that ;-)

Matt


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Cheers Matt!
Now anyone who owns one of these cases with extensive wear can legitimately refinish it with Liver of Sulphur, instead of painting it.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

This gives some credit to my Dennison also potentially being factory oxidized. Excellent find!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I would not lite those cigars just yet.................................

If these cases are oxidized how come the inside of the case backs are not "oxidized" as well or the four sections of threading that the case screws together on?

Evidence exists that these cases were painted using a method called "Japanning". (4th line from the bottom)

Japanning is most often a heavy black lacquer, almost like enamel paint. Black is common enough that japanning is often assumed to be synonymous with black japanning. The European technique uses varnishes that have a resin base, similar to shellac, applied in heat-dried layers which are then polished, to give a smooth glossy finish.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Indeed, I would put the cigars away.

I really wonder how many of the people commenting have actually seen, touched or inspected one of these pieces. I have seen two!

Now I just pulled the NAWCC one on display, I can guarantee without any doubt that it is painted (maybe Japanned). There is no doubt to this, why?

Scratches in the case have NOT re-oxidized and more importantly, places (mainly round the stem) where they did not want paint are as shiny as the day it was made.
This piece was never oxidized by time or chemicals, its painted.

Regards


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

In the Red Corner wearing ...and in the Blue corner wearing.....! 

Any 'dialectic' like this helps Everyone learn ! 


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Well, I found many of these official Depollier 1919 ads, they all say "oxidized".
Concerning the 'why aren't the' replies, I would think that Depollier would seal the cases up, and cover any areas they did not want oxidising, just as you would if you were painting something, just like when spraying a car.
And as to the re-oxidising, why would it re-oxidise? These cases aren't silver, they are nickel aren't they?
The one in the NAWCC could have been painted, or possibly really heavily oxidised. How many heavily oxidised cases have you handled/checked Adam? 
We all saw the dramatic effect a first attempt by Stan had on those cases, isn't it possible that the one ad Stan shows is incorrect, versus those many first-party official Depollier ads?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sdasurrey said:


> In the Red Corner wearing ...and in the Blue corner wearing.....!
> 
> Any 'dialectic' like this helps Everyone learn !
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


And the "seconds" in each corner are xxxx + YYYY


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Well, I found many of these official Depollier 1919 ads, they all say "oxidized".
> ?


Not quite sure why you consider you *"I"* found them.
I (and Stan) have had a number of these Depollier adverts for years.
I think I can say, I owned one from prior to 2011 maybe 2010, I would need to check back on that, but for certain I was studying them in 2011.
Stan and I have a mutual colleague that owns 3 or 4 of these pieces, he also owns the keys to open/lock the case, both Stan and I have seen and discussed these watches with this collector.
How many have you personally inspected?

Regards


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Wow smart remarks about adverts.
I found at least four of these adverts under my own steam in various magazines/periodicals, and have found many of the Star dial Elgin ads that neither you or Stan have found before from two newspapers, including one for "scholars".

Is it not possible that the advert Stan showed earlier comes from much later than 1919, as it advertises the same watch/case but for $5 more than the other adverts? Just because the patent date is 1919, does not mean the advert is!
Here are more Depollier ads from 1919.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Are you saying Depollier were wrong about how they finished their own cases?
Heavier deposits of oxidisation would leave thicker layers that someone unfamiliar with the process would think was paint.

Discuss.


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

I have never seen one of these watches in person, but I will throw my hat in the ring and ask wether some cases could have been Oxidized and others Japanned? after all there are many ways to achieve that desired result of blackened cases so maybe they used more than one technique.

Matt (sitting on the fence waiting to be knocked down)


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

It is entirely possible Matt, hence my remark on Stan's advert being much later.
As for any 'shinyness' on these 90+ year old cases, decades of handling/sleeve polishing have added a patina.
We need Stan to do more work on those cases! Deposit, polish, deposit, polish, etc. etc. 

Edit-Don't forget, it's not me saying they were oxidized cases-_Depollier were saying they were!_


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Wow smart remarks about adverts.
> I found at least four of these adverts under my own steam in various magazines/periodicals, and have found many of the Star dial Elgin ads that neither you or Stan have found before from two newspapers, including one for "scholars".
> 
> View attachment 3647130
> View attachment 3647146


brilliant!
I too and thousands of other "found" these adverts. These are not like the first wristwatch photo of 1879, or the Goram,advert of 1905.
The adverts you think you "found" are common place and everywhere.
Indeed I have a book of them.

Maybe you came across them while googling, but I can assure you, you are not the first to have "found" them.
Additionally it would gratefully help if you both acknowledged where you found them and the date!

PS: Just because I (or Stan) do not post an advert or a photo, does NOT mean we have not seen or own one. I personally hold items back for Webinars.
some times I smile to myself, when you do post something you state "I found this" and I have it in my archives!

Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Can we have less strutting, and more sticking to the subject?
If you have nothing pertinent to add, please do not clutter the bandwidth.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Until you actually hold one of these watches in your hand anybody simply will not understand.

The finish on these waterproof cases is very thick and feels layered just like in the definition of Japanning.

Take a close look at the pictures below, paint chips off like this, not oxidation in my opinion.

I have other evidence that I am saving for my next book that goes into this further, sorry not going to post it.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Perhaps.
Maybe chemical analysis would be in order?
So, Depollier are totally incorrect with their own advertisements? This would be most unusual.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Stan, do you have a definite date for that "japanning" advert?
This could give a handle on any changeover in manufacturing processes.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> Until you actually hold one of these watches in your hand anybody simply will not understand.
> 
> The finish on these waterproof cases is very thick and feels layered just like in the definition of Japanning.
> 
> ...


Well it's a strange state of affairs, both you and Adam are stating that these watches are painted and not
oxidized nickel.

Yet the U.S army specs of 1916 actually states that ..." *The case shall be of oxidized nickel, with dull black finish"*....
source Horologist007.

Bobbees' adverts certainly support Horologist007's research, into the army specs, that these cases should be oxidized nickel.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The great minds at Depollier were known to have changed their minds, often.

As a matter of fact it took me 24 pages of text in my next book to explain how often they changed their minds and why.


Chemical analysis, absolutely!

But, know anybody who owns one of these that is willing to put it under the knife and scrape a sample off?

LOL!

I'm sure that sending a sample off to a lab for testing will cost an arm and a leg.

Another way to possibly know is to read every last page of the Depollier master records and check their purchase orders for what they bought.

I plan to read this file cover to cover in the near future, it still exists.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Well it's a strange state of affairs, both you and Adam are stating that these watches are painted and not
> oxidized nickel.
> 
> Yet the U.S army specs of 1916 actually states that ..." *The case shall be of oxidized nickel, with dull black finish"*....
> ...


I think the key words here are "with dull black finish" _ how its achieved probably was not that important.

The fact is the spec, that I will again show in my webinar and indeed is in Stan's book (page 7) states that and the full spec. It is also clear under loupe inspection to be painted on in some way.
Those are the facts as I see it.
And the adverts posted by Bobee are not knew to me, Stan or indeed this forum

Regards
adam


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

radger said:


> Well it's a strange state of affairs, both you and Adam are stating that these watches are painted and not
> oxidized nickel.
> 
> Yet the U.S army specs of 1916 actually states that ..." *The case shall be of oxidized nickel, with dull black finish"*....
> ...


The US Army spec changed again in 1918 so the 1916 spec would not pertain to this watch, the 1918 spec would not pertain to this watch either due to it being a 1919 model.

The first two Depollier waterproof watch designs from 1918 would not meet either general specification.

It would not surprise me in the least if waterproof watches had their own US Army specification.

The watch pictures that I posted above are the 3rd generation of Depollier waterproof cases.

The Army also bought watches that were not waterproof as well.

The advert that I posted is from the early 1920's.


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Here we go again:roll:

Matt


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

busmatt said:


> Here we go again:roll:
> 
> Matt


HaHaHa.
It all started with you giving out (prematurely) ceeeeegars!!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> The US Army spec changed again in 1918 so the 1916 spec would not pertain to this watch, the 1918 spec would not pertain to this watch either due to it being a 1919 model.
> 
> The first two Depollier waterproof watch designs from 1918 would not meet either general specification.
> 
> ...


We can add that there are over 9 patents (improvements) spread over 4 years on this case!!!!


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

I know it's all my fault againo| ;-), I, like every one here would like to know how they did it but I suspect that unless the Depollier records that Stan is going to read through give an exact technical breakdown the only way we'll ever know for sure is either, chemical analysis:think: or for someone to invent a time machine (other than Timex;-))

Matt


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

So, after all the previous discussions, and details arising concerning Depollier documents that state that the cases are darkened but nothing on 'how' it was done, and subsequent tests on silver cases using tarnishing chemicals, and adverts proclaiming oxidized cases, and Depollier's adverts ( some I found without any help) now having been found to proclaim the cases were oxidised to get them darkened, all this is denied now?
The adverts clearly state "oxidized cases", and any that are found to be painted must date to the early 1920's per Stan's advert ststing "japanned".
The new military specs are unknown, so any discussion about those or subsequent ones in the 1920's are purely guesswork and not factual.
I thought you 'hardliners' didn't do guesswork, but pure facts?

"Early 1920's". Can you be any clearer Stan? It could be important, but if you are saving the info for your book, best clam up!


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Maybe they smoked like kippers and then shellaced,Something Literustyfan could test on his barbeque.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> We can add that there are over 9 patents (improvements) spread over 4 years on this case!!!!


Yeah, 'we' know too. seen lots of patent stuff in other threads, and other sites.
Including the 'dark crystal document' lol!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Yeah, 'we' know too. seen lots of patent stuff in other threads, and other sites.
> Including the 'dark crystal document' lol!


I got no idea what 9 patents you have.
I have 9 (Stan claims there are 10) that are all improvements to this one case.
That is no myth, pure facts I have these patents here and studied all 9 of them (I have not found the 10th Stan is holding)

I would add, I doubt any other thread or site has all 9? Maybe you could give links. Thanks in advance
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Maybe you could give yours? You seem to love hoarding them so much, while I give out information freely.
Great horology.
While you 'laugh' at my claims to finding things. Of course, you already "owned" them, I forgot.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

You guys are just going to have to wait a little while.

I would love to share all of my evidence and findings with you right now but that would spoil the book's release down the road.

So far it's 246 pages long and weighs in at 5.3 pounds!

I'd say that it's about 85% - 90% complete at the moment.

There are topics and watches within the pages of this book that have NEVER been seen or discussed on ANY watch forum!

So just be patient............................

This is why I have not been very active on the forums lately, I've been working on the book day and night!


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Do you know, for some reason I have this image of Smaug in my head.

Strange.


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Looking good, Stan!
So, the advert is in the book? Do you have actual documents for 1918 military specs? Only I remember you saying they were lost, and any subsequent speculation could not be verified.



Literustyfan said:


> You guys are just going to have to wait a little while.
> 
> I would love to share all of my evidence and findings with you right now but that would spoil the book's release down the road.
> 
> ...


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Yep, the new book is getting up to a nice respectable size, thanks!

5 months and 10 days into writing it now, but the data collection and research have been going on for 5+ years.

My goal is to have it done by the end of the Summer this year.


No, the 1918 doc has never been found, I doubt that it ever will be.

But, parts of it can be pieced back together from other official government documents, watches and data.

I have vowed to not look for it anymore, I have spent more hours looking for it that I will ever admit to.

I honestly feel that it is a wild goose chase, but if anybody has a few thousand spare hours on their hands.....................go for it.


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Okay, this advert just _has _to be correct, and pertain to the military dictate of the time.
It states that the watch case has been "adopted by the Signals Corps of the US Army", so it must comply to the specifications..
Why would any military want a _shiny_ black finish to a case anyway? Look at any 'japanning' finish, it is polished to a high gloss. This reflects light almost as readily as a silver case. 
I think that advert may possibly be incorrect with the 'japanned case', or it would not comply to specs. Is it a Depollier advert, or third party?

I found this ad on my own Adam, and I don't have to acknowledge a magazine that sold in it's hundreds of thousands 96 years ago.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

One interesting point
If this advert is from early 1920s.
I wonder why it only list the patents to June 10 1919.
I found Depolliers 10th patent dated November 1919?
A



Literustyfan said:


> I would not lite those cigars just yet.................................
> 
> If these cases are oxidized how come the inside of the case backs are not "oxidized" as well or the four sections of threading that the case screws together on?
> 
> ...


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Both the oxidation and Japanning adverts are already in the book, some things the reader will have to draw their own conclusions on after reading my findings.

Wiki says that Japanning (black lacquer) is applied in heat-dried layers then polished.

What if you don't polish it?

It would probably be dull?

I'm no expert on this method so I can't answer either way.


----------



## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> One interesting point
> If this advert is from early 1920s.
> I wonder why it only list the patents to June 10 1919.
> I found Depolliers 10th patent dated November 1919?
> A


The last waterproof case patent (Nov 1919) deals with the Raduim dust issue right, not a waterproofing issue?


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Literustyfan said:


> The last waterproof case patent (Nov 1919) deals with the Raduim dust issue right, not a waterproofing issue?


yes, that is true, but it still relates to the case.
Regards
adam


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

As you know, 'japanning' is the process of applying layers of lacquer, and polishing each subsequent layer, and finishing with a very shiny product.
Not polishing layers of lacquer, and leaving a non shiny finish-if that's possible, lacquer is shiny anyway-would not be 'japanning'.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Question
Oxidized silver (or tarnished) looks black (agreed), but can but can be removed or re-polished back to a natural bright shiny metal (silver)

with a manually oxidized nickel case, could the same be done? That is gently polished to its original silver color?

If so, what should one use to do that - maybe a silver polishing cloth? If so, I could 'maybe' try a test here?

Just a suggestion
adam


----------



## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Adam, that's exceedingly selfless and generous of you, but we are really delving into unknown territory don't you think?
We don't know exactly how the process was done, and with-possibly-multiple layers of oxidisation, and time/patina effect unknown, it's an unknown quantity what the result could be. Maybe it could be removed, but we just don't know what to expect.
If you wish to try it is up to you, but it's not something to be done lightly. Maybe discuss with the other museum employees?


----------



## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Adam, that's exceedingly selfless and generous of you, but we are really delving into unknown territory don't you think?
> We don't know exactly how the process was done, and with-possibly-multiple layers of oxidisation, and time/patina effect unknown, it's an unknown quantity what the result could be. Maybe it could be removed, but we just don't know what to expect.
> If you wish to try it is up to you, but it's not something to be done lightly. Maybe discuss with the other museum employees?


Bobbee.
I just would like to get us all to the truth on this.
From my eyesight it looks like paint, I do not think Japanning is true or correct at all, I think that is probably a resellers incorrect words - sorry but on researching Japanning I done see how it could be that.

Therefore we are down to paint or oxidization (manually versus natural on silver).
I could try a tiny part of the case with some silvo polish, just an idea?

Lets see if anyone has any other/better idea, how we can prove this one way or the other.

Additionally, I would need to clear it with the Museum director.


----------



## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Adam, that's exceedingly selfless and generous of you, but we are really delving into unknown territory don't you think?
> We don't know exactly how the process was done, and with-possibly-multiple layers of oxidisation, and time/patina effect unknown, it's an unknown quantity what the result could be. Maybe it could be removed, but we just don't know what to expect.
> If you wish to try it is up to you, but it's not something to be done lightly. Maybe discuss with the other museum employees?


Maybe heat was used to speed up the natural oxidisation proccess,the first paragraph of the link is interesting......How to Clean Silver That Has Been in a Fire | eHow


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

radger said:


> Originally Posted by *radger*
> 
> Well it's a strange state of affairs, both you and Adam are stating that these watches are painted and not
> oxidized nickel.
> ...





HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I think the key words here are "with dull black finish" _ how its achieved probably was not that important.
> 
> The fact is the spec, that I will again show in my webinar and indeed is in Stan's book (page 7) states that and the full spec. It is also clear under loupe inspection to be painted on in some way.
> Those are the facts as I see it.
> ...


I think the key words here are " *The case shall be of oxidized nickel*", you cannot just disregard a government
specification as being unimportant...well I suppose you can if it conflicts with your 'painted theory' but that's just
silly.

Have you ever inspected or compared these watches to examples of ww1 military equipment which are known to be
of a black oxidized chemical process?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> I think the key words here are " *The case shall be of oxidized nickel*", you cannot just disregard a government
> specification as being unimportant...well I suppose you can if it conflicts with your 'painted theory' but that's just
> silly.
> 
> ...


Firstly Radger, I ask you, as I asked others who cleverly avoided answering, "how many of these Depollier case pieces have you held and looked closely at through a loupe"? One, two, thousands maybe?

Yet I have one beside me in the Museum, I took it out with the sole aim of trying to get the truth to this issue. I even suggested trying to test it by polish (after approval by Museum)
Yet you prefer to poo poo these honest endeavors.

Yes, I believe based on my belief that I have inspected both, that said maybe they were both 'oxidized' I ask again, 'how many of either have you inspected?

Next, the spec.
"The case shall be oxidized nickel WITH A DULL BLACK FINISH"
Well it is nickel and oxidized or painted I believe the army neither would care or even know as long as it was a "dull black finish"
Indeed the spec also calls for:
DIAL: A small round spot of radium (Luminous) shall be sufficient - do these Depolliers have a "small round spot of radium"
Have you ever studied the complete spec? I have (as has Stan)

Radger
I am happy to be proven incorrect, I only try to get to the facts, I try never to ignore questions to me, however that is not helped by your pathetic ridicules and personal attacks.
I am no more here to defend myself than you are, so try answering some questions rather than only demanding others do.

A


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

As the originator of this fairly long running thread, can I simply suggest that for what most people would honestly consider is a fairly obscure/esoteric, 100-year old issue - the concept of 'truth' has to be put in quotes! 

There is no truth obtainable here especially with potentially only a few of these watches any of you can touch or scratch or BBQ.

So let's consider this a process of supposition, hypothesis testing and fact finding as best as is honestly possible. Certainly Stan has spent a tremendous amount of time fact finding and documenting for his forthcoming book - I mean this thread is about his first book and documentation of trench watches. Adam has the resources at the Museum and access to a few watches.

So on one side arguments tend to be made in quite strident ways - but there is not truth, only 'truth'.

So on the other side, long term vintage watch aficionados like Bobbee and Radger et al, take a fair amount of time and research as well to look at these issues and offer alternative hypotheses. So then we get into a complex dialectic on the issue and this becomes a long term debate about truth not 'truth'. 

But as discussed in other threads - and articulated by me personally along with others, everyone is entitled to their opinions and articulation of their view of the facts as they relate to this.

On one side we tend to have fairly strident views presented - this elicits responses from the other side - which become more forceful - As a Response to the Stridency of the initial supposition. 

I don't want to name any other names specifically - that's a moderator responsibility.

But if we realise this is 'truth' not truth - and we act Less stridently in the first place, and become less defensive we can focus on 'truth'.

My 2 pence .. Best, Scott



Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Firstly Radger, I ask you, as I asked others who cleverly avoided answering, "how many of these Depollier case pieces have you held and looked closely at through a loupe"? One, two, thousands maybe?
> 
> Yet I have one beside me in the Museum, I took it out with the sole aim of trying to get the truth to this issue. I even suggested trying to test it by polish (after approval by Museum)
> Yet you prefer to poo poo these honest endeavors.
> ...


Adam,

I have examined dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of oxidized base metal army spec scientific instruments.
I must say that they look like a painted finish.

Army specs are not to be taken as lightly as you suggest i.m.o.

That is why I suggest that you compare the museum watch with a known example of oxidised base metal, you
might be surprised.

---------------------------------

Well said Scott


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Military specifications are just that-military needs that must be met if the supplier wishes to be sell their wares to them.
The specs we actually know of-we can't take into consideration any missing ones- call for "oxidized nickel cases with a dull black finish", without any emphasis on any part of the statement. Now, if a supplier offers painted wood cases with a shiny black finish, do you think either the military would accept that these followed their needs and that we would be having this discussion? No to both.
Just because the cases appear to be painted does not mean they are, especially after 100 years of patina.
Adam, saying the army "wouldn't care or even know as long as it was a dull black finish" is an assumption based on what?
I am assuming that regulations would have been followed, at least the ones we have knowledge about that have been eked out to us.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Adam,
> 
> I have examined dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of oxidized base metal army spec scientific instruments.
> I must say that they look like a painted finish.
> ...


radger
can you post some high definition photos of oxidized nickel cases, so we may compare them to the Museum example and Stan's Depollier photo in the previous pages. 
Thanks
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm wondering if a wax polish or satin lacquer finish to a heavy oxidised case would leave an effect that looks like paint to those unfamiliar with it?

I wasn't "cleverly avoiding the question" re. handlng one of these cases Adam, rather ignoring it, as it was patently obvious that I hadn't, and the question was thus defunct.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Military specifications are just that-military needs that must be met if the supplier wishes to be sell their wares to them.
> .


Could you then comment on the dial spec stating a "small dot of luminous material" - while dials had box filled numerals filled with luminous material?
Both on these discussed Depolliers and many other WWI specked watches like Elgin?
Surely not always "small dots of luminous paint" - hardly adhering to the spec?

now maybe the 1918 spec allowed that, yes? Well maybe it just also said dark cases?

Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Could you then comment on the dial spec stating a "small dot of luminous material" - while dials had.box filled numerals filled with luminous material?
> Both on these discussed Depolliers and many other WWI specked watches like Elgin?
> Surely not always "small dots of luminous paint" - hardly adhering to the spec?
> 
> ...


I can answer it quite easily.
Only watches for military use would be required to have those dials.
It stands to reason that the cases would all be manufactured using the same process, but watches sold to the civilian sector would have the normal dials, as per those in the adverts.
Application of common sense is all that's needed.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Regarding comments on the 1918 specs, that is all we have, spec. Pure speculation and no facts.
Any speculation about those and subsequent milspecs into the 1920's can have no basis in fact, as military watches used old movements purchased in bulk for the purpose of use in these cases for the most part, so cannot with any accuracy post 1919 be dated.
The specs and case patents only go this far. 
If you have a case with a 1919 patent, containing a 1925 dated movement, would you think 'original' or 'recase'?
More speculation.
All we can go on is what we know from adverts/patents/milspecs.
"Hard Liner" attitude!


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> I can answer it quite easily.
> Only watches for military use would be required to have those dials.
> It stands to reason that the cases would all be manufactured using the same process, but watches sold to the civilian sector would have the normal dials, as per those in the adverts.
> Application of common sense is all that's needed.


Thanks your answer, but it misses the facts.

The military bought more than the Depollier cased watches, indeed I will be showing in my webinar a military PO, and the watch, it has lumed box dial numerals!
We see many WWI pieces for American Signal Corps, it on the dial - LARGE lumed box dials.
And, those Depolliers that have the USA Army Gold Stamp on the back some have lumed bold dials and not dots.

So it does appear that a 'spec' can be adapted, maybe that is a minimum spec.

Actually FYI, the PO was covered by a sample piece, the PO states as per sample XXXXX, so the manufacturer supplied both a price and a sample unit, then the PO was placed to THAT sample and not any specification number.
Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Maybe, I think they would use the dials they have in stock?
The new, improved cases would follow the milspecs, but any dials that fit would be used, as long as they are lumed.
If you are not going to show pics of your specimen, I'm certain I can't comment on it, just like any other watch in any other post.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The speculation surrounding the case/specs are ridiculous IMO, as both the specs a_nd_ the adverts of 1919 state quite clearly "*oxidized*".
The rest is moot and irrelevant.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Maybe, I think they would use the dials they have in stock?
> The new, improved cases would follow the milspecs, but any dials that fit would be used, as long as they are lumed.
> If you are not going to show pics of your specimen, I'm certain I can't comment on it, just like any other watch in any other post.


"Maybe, I think" ??
You can not have it both ways!

Either as you say the spec* "MUST"* be adhered to, or as you now 'speculate' they could use any '*out of spec'* dial.

You can not have it both ways. Why did they just not use old cases, same principle as your dial speculation?

You do not comment on the Signal Core pieces, with lumed box numerals - these can be found on any simple search - not to the military spec, but existing.

These are facts.
I will also show a May 1918 USA Army PO with specification and the watch, huge lumed box dial numerals.

You argue without seeing one single piece, I have a number of pieces here, one is brown covered (paint), can oxidization be brown? I do not know, it looks exactly like paint, as does the Depollier.
Maybe it is oxidization, but you should go to a Museum and request to see it, prior to arguing and then speculating.

Hopefully Radger will post good photos of oxidized nickel cases that I can compare in order we may get to the correct facts.
I change to 'facts' as scott/you/others did not like my term "truth"


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Are we talking about the same watch case here? The Depollier? 
Brown painted case. Hmmm. Obviously being as you have it it is genuine as issued.

I can have it any way I like. It is my mind and I reserve the right to change it as and when I see fit, without the need to notify anyone.
My track record for this subject is a lot higher than others, maybe my mental flexibility is a plus in this.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> I can have it any way I like. .


cool


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The talk of dials, as I said is irrelevant.
The cases are what are under discussion, and the Depollier waterproof clamshell in particular.
The dials are secondary, as stocks would be used up and a little "over engineering" does not hurt anyway. But, regarding any 'brown' or 'hand painted' case found that are possibly genuine could be done in the field or at the military point of issue by repairmen for the military so as to comply with regs in some way. Who knows.

The new 1916 milspecs are now known, and the new Depollier cases certainly comply with them.
Ads/specs, ads/specs, ads/specs-_ ad nauseum!_


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

bobbee said:


> The talk of dials, as I said is irrelevant.
> The cases are what are under discussion, and the Depollier waterproof clamshell in particular.
> The dials are secondary, as stocks would be used up and a little "over engineering" does not hurt anyway. But, regarding any 'brown' or 'hand painted' case found that are possibly genuine could be done in the field or at the military point of issue by repairmen for the military so as to comply with regs in some way. Who knows.
> 
> ...


Fine, you summed it up perfectly here:


> _I can have it any way I like. ._


Thats fine.

I am now out of this discussion.
Have it any way "you like"
Bye
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Again, as usual, if someone disagrees with you or has a different viewpoint, you play the "offended" card.

For those with an interest still in this discussion, here is an interesting video on the processes of oxidising jewelry. It tells how both polish and seal your oxidised piece, oddly enough using wax and also modern acrylic sealants. This would be analogous to varnish or resinous materials of old, and mentions that if your liver of sulphur solution is too concentrated the finish may flake. just like paint does.
Anyway, it is quite long and in depth, but makes me even more convinced these old cases are oxidised.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> radger
> can you post some high definition photos of oxidized nickel cases, so we may compare them to the Museum example and Stan's Depollier photo in the previous pages.
> Thanks
> adam


Hi Adam, if you re-read my post you will see that I stated base metal oxidised scientific instruments.
That is any metal, that oxidises, corrodes or tarnishes and does not include precious metals such as silver or gold.

Nickel falls into the category of base metals as it can be oxidized. I have dozens of oxidized examples WW1 British army,
they are brass or bronze.
Nickel seems to be more U.S useage, probably due to availability and cost.

Nevertheless, brass, bronze or nickel, they all contain copper which I'm pretty sure is the metal which reacts with
the chemical reagents in the oxidisation process.

I'll look some out and post some examples at the weekend.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

radger said:


> Hi Adam, if you re-read my post you will see that I stated base metal oxidised scientific instruments.
> That is any metal, that oxidises, corrodes or tarnishes and does not include precious metals such as silver or gold.
> 
> Nickel falls into the category of base metals as it can be oxidized. I have dozens of oxidized examples WW1 British army,
> ...


Thanks Radger
That is perfect. Fully agree
Regards

@ Bobee
"offended"? Not at all, just nothing more to discuss with you, so post away "as you like"
A


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Again, as usual, if someone disagrees with you or has a different viewpoint, you play the "offended" card.
> 
> For those with an interest still in this discussion, here is an interesting video on the processes of oxidising jewelry. It tells how both polish and seal your oxidised piece, oddly enough using wax and also modern acrylic sealants. This would be analogous to varnish or resinous materials of old, and mentions that if your liver of sulphur solution is too concentrated the finish may flake. just like paint does.
> Anyway, it is quite long and in depth, but makes me even more convinced these old cases are oxidised.


I agree.

A deep oxidised layer which is sealed and protected with several layers of shelac laquer will have a discernable depth.
The oxidized black layer would quite likely have greater adherence to the laquer than to the base metal which spawned
it and so could chip away just like paint.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Radger, in the video I linked to, the metals used as subjects are silver and copper. The copper went black in seconds, the silver took a couple of minutes. If left in a cool solution for longer periods, instead of hot solution for very short periods, the build up and depth of oxidisation would be far deeper. I don't know, but suspect the finish would be more even too.
As nickel contains copper, it would be very quick and far easier than painting, as well as cheaper and less messy.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Radger, in the video I linked to, the metals used as subjects are silver and copper. The copper went black in seconds, the silver took a couple of minutes. If left in a cool solution for longer periods, instead of hot solution for very short periods, the build up and depth of oxidisation would be far deeper. I don't know, but suspect the finish would be more even too.
> As nickel contains copper, it would be very quick and far easier than painting, as well as cheaper and less messy.


Yes, indeed, and when you examine the natural verdigris (copper sulfate) that copper produces, it can have substantial depth.
The black silver sulfate layer on silver has far less depth.

The process wouldn't necessarily be cheap, but it would be the best way to achieve a good result at the time.

By WW11, British army marching compasses were actually painted as oposed to oxidised in WW1, probably due to the development of acid
etching special metal primers. A special metal priming layer is visible on these examples, underneath the painted layer.
There was no paint known at that time which would paint straight onto nickel or brass to my knowledge.
Nowadays we can use aircraft grade epoxy resin based paints.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks to TickTalk's findings in this article-V&C Corps of Engineers Watches - Blogs - National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board- we now know that the watches used by the military were still required to be _oxydized_ in 1918, as this PO for the engineers corps. shows:

National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors Message Board

I wonder if the material used actually changed too?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Dozens of adverts in many publications, only four or five accessible without buying the mag/manual.
Also lots of patent info, some possibly relating to the waterproofing process.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=d...h+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&norc=1&zx=1429265132317


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: Elgin - Trench Watches (oxidised base metal military compass examples)*

Here are the pics I promised.

This will be a large post as I've taken a few pics and upped the resolution, readers should be able to click on
a pic to be taken to the full size image.

The examples I have chosen are all compasses, they are military or private purchase for military use during WW1.

It will be noted as you scroll through the pics that there is no 'uniformity' to the type of finish
which can be produced using chemical oxidisation processes.

There are dull finishes and there are shiny finishes, there are mottled or 'rough' finishes and there are
smooth finishes which have been applied to polished metal surfaces and finished with laquer.

Each maker would have their own 'secret' formulae for producing either 'cheap' quicky dull black rough finishes
to perfectly flat black and laquered finishes to the highest quality applied to compasses, sextants, microscopes
and the like.

The first two examples below are U.S military WW1. U.S Engineer Corps compasses.
One is by Plan of Switzerland and the other by Cruchon & Emons Paris.

These are interesting because they are finished an a dull black, this has been achieved by roughening the case
material which is hard brass or bronze. One looks like the case material was sand blasted before the oxidised layer
was applied, the other looks to have a scratch finish.

A cheap oxidised finish that looks good, one is almost pristine whilst the other has some wear.













The next compass is British military issue WW1 Artillery officers compass by F.Barker london.
This is a better quality finish, remnants of laquer can be seen.











The next examples are Cavalry officers liquid filled compasses by Steward of London, beautiful finish.











WW1 private purchase by Cruchon and Emons London





Verners pattern V11 1915 and pattern V111 from 1917.

These show areas where some laquer is still present and where the laquer is rubbed the lower oxidised
layer is still present in some areas. the pattern V111 has more finish still present but is 'bubbling' underneath
the finish.









1917 private purchase.





Adam, please let me know if you need more and let us know your deliberations.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

*Re: Elgin - Trench Watches (oxidised base metal military compass examples)*

Radger
They are fantastic
I am going to print and study them beside two Museum pieces.
Probably respond Sunday or Monday.

At quick glance like this
The next compass is British military issue WW1 Artillery officers compass by F.Barker london.
This is a better quality finish, remnants of laquer can be seen.

Its going to be a tough/close call.

Really thanks


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

PS
Radger
They are magnificent pieces.
Just enlarged and printed


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> PS
> Radger
> They are magnificent pieces.
> Just enlarged and printed


Thank you,

There is a good cross section of varying quality oxidised surfaces there.

I should add that, in the laquered versions, the oxidised layer can be picked off just like paint because it
has greater adhesion to the aged and brittle shelac laquer over layers than it has to the base metal.
This is hardly surprising as shelac is also a great glue as every watchmaker knows.

In the areas where the laquer has been rubbed or is non existant, then the oxidized layer can be rubbed but
not picked of in flakes...at least not on the examples I have tried it on.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Wow ! Lots of hard work and a substantial contribution from Radger in this long running debate ! 

So Three Cheers !!!! Hip hip ....!!! SDA 


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Sdasurrey said:


> Wow ! Lots of hard work and a substantial contribution from Radger in this long running debate !
> 
> So Three Cheers !!!! Hip hip ....!!! SDA
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL thank you Scott....I'll go and put these back in the thermopile, there's radium in
these compasses.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> LOL thank you Scott....I'll go and put these back in the thermopile, there's radium in
> these compasses.


Radger - thanks, but thank you !!!! Small favour ? My night light next to my bed is missing a bulb - could you FedEx me a couple of kilos of radium to tide me over until I get to Robert Dyas ? !!! Cheers ! Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Well I will be responding on the other gun metal versus oxidization versus paint thread.
I am now out of this thread, I was just waiting for Radger's photos

Adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Extremely beautiful pieces Radger, I'm jealous as hell!
That shellac finish is the money shot right there.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Extremely beautiful pieces Radger, I'm jealous as hell!
> That shellac finish is the money shot right there.


The laquered finish to an oxidised case, certainly 'glosses' the case up and gives a more 'paint' like
finish, i.e how we imagine painted finishes to be ...all shiny and prone to chipping and such.

I don't think the 'Black Oxidized Depolliers' being sold, as in your ads, were ever laquered though.

I base this on nothing more than a simple Google image search for 'Depollier Waterproof'.
This throws up many images and links where, what I am seeing, are many examples with, what looks to me to be
an oxidised surface.

You can see rubbing and case imperfections clearly beneath the black oxide on many examples including Adams'
museum watch.

Myself, I have no doubt that these were sold with a black oxidised finish, and many good examples still exist with some original
finish to bear witness to that, 99.9% certain of not eating my laptop on that.

Literrusty's watch looks painted though, but Adam's museum watch looks to be oxidised.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> The laquered finish to an oxidised case, certainly 'glosses' the case up and gives a more 'paint' like
> finish, i.e how we imagine painted finishes to be ...all shiny and prone to chipping and such.
> 
> I don't think the 'Black Oxidized Depolliers' being sold, as in your ads, were ever laquered though.
> ...


Adam - If you're 'out of this thread' are you allowed to 'like' Radger's post ??!!! SDA

EDIT - as I just said by PM this was meant as a joke ! I'm only trying to 'lighten' the mood in fairly hotly contested discussions - I have said on many occasions, I absolutely don't try to bring expertise into these types of topics - as I have none ! And wouldn't try to convince anyone otherwise! SDA

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

There is a possibility that the specs were changed in 1920 or later to just a 'black' finish to cases, but this is speculation. Stan's example could be either re-finished by a military repairman or by a civilian sometime later, or conforms to a later milspec. Again, speculation.
All we have to go on are the 1916 milspecs, the 1918 PO for VC watches using oxidisation, and adverts from 1919-1920, and one example of an advert from some time during the 1920's that differs from dozens of others.

Edit- if these watches were to turn out to be painted by some definite proof, that means that they do not date to the WW1 era, and thus not 'trench watches' but 'trench styled'.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

Bobbee,

Why do you say that if they were painted they wouldn't be "trench watches" anymore?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The 1916 milspecs, as per the same post, call for an "oxidized finish".
In the order I posted on p41 for VC watches for the AEF were specifically ordered to have an oxydized finish in 1918, meaning the specs had not changed as per above.
If the watches were painted, that is not to milspecs we know of so must be from later than 1918 specs (possibly), which were changed in 1920 but remain unknown.
If the 1920 spec changed from "oxidized" to some other finish, than any watches not finished as per known specs must come from 1920 or later, and we only call a watch a trench watch if it can be dated definitely to be from before the end of WW1.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Edit- if these watches were to turn out to be painted by some definite proof, that means that they do not date to the WW1 era, and thus not 'trench watches' but 'trench styled'.


Are you serious ? ? ? ? ? ?

Are you going to keep on stating that Depollier did not have a waterproof watch available before June 10, 1919 again too ? ? ? ? ? ?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm going by known military specs, and the adverts that conform to those specs.
As a "hard core researcher who only goes by FACTORY advertising" I would think you would take note of "this hardcore undeniable evidence" too.
Your words, not mine.

Regarding a "waterproof watch prior to June 10th. 1919", no, not using this case with a patent date stamped to that time, and probably considerably later.
As someone who knows about how long it takes to get these watches from factory to the front, surely you would know that it would take months.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't think I have seen an advert for this watch case with this patent prior to July 1919 either, giving us an idea of their first release date.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

The release dates can be figured out if you do proper research, you cannot always rely on adverts.

The Depollier waterproof that I posted earlier in this thread is one of the very first 3rd generation waterproof watches ever made.

Here is the inside of the case back, it was made WELL before June 10, 1919.

It was made in December of 1918.

Plus, there were two other models that pre-date this one!

The first generation of Depollier waterproof watches were AVAILABLE in early August of 1918, WELL before The Armistice was signed.

Soon as the patent paperwork was applied for production began, they wasted no time waiting for the patents to be granted.

I think that folks need to really start doing their homework and be very diligent in their research before making outrageous claims.

Sorry, but you simply could not be any more wrong on this one.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Here is the inside of a case back that was made after June 1919.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I do believe I posted that I was talking of the June 10th. 1919 patented watch?
I don't need to do any research on any release dates, the patent dates inside the watches cannot pre-date a release date, and the release date pre-dates any watches arriving on the European theatre by quite some time, so I stick by my earlier statement regarding the June 10, 1919 patented cases.


Your November 6th. 1918 patent would also have great difficuly to have been delivered and issued in time for arrival in Europe in time to be a true "trench watch".
All speculation on the finish without expert opinion is still speculation. We would need reports from those experts.
Let's face it, earlier in this thread you thought all dark finished watches were painted, we now know this to be false.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Advertising for the 3rd generation of Depollier waterproof watches did not start showing up until about September of 1919, this watch was available a full 9 MONTHS before that.

You cannot always rely on adverts......................they do not tell the entire story.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Well, that's an improvement over your inflexibility regarding adverts in my "early wrist watch articles" thread.
If all we have to go on are adverts and milspecs, especially when the ads appear to comply with those milspecs, I know where my money lies! 

I think I can correct you regarding the first ads for this watch case. The date at the top of the book image is "July 1919".

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...&sa=X&ei=JXkyVcGLJdfgavKWgMAL&ved=0CE4Q6AEwCQ


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> Well, that's an improvement over your inflexibility regarding adverts in my "early wrist watch articles" thread.
> If all we have to go on are adverts and milspecs, especially when the ads appear to comply with those milspecs, I know where my money lies!
> 
> I think I can correct you regarding the first ads for this watch case. The date at the top of the book image is "July 1919".
> ...


The earliest date near any of these adverts is September 1919, I did not see anything near July 1919.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

bobbee said:


> I do believe I posted that I was talking of the June 10th. 1919 patented watch?
> I don't need to do any research on any release dates, the patent dates inside the watches cannot pre-date a release date, and the release date pre-dates any watches arriving on the European theatre by quite some time, so I stick by my earlier statement regarding the June 10, 1919 patented cases.
> 
> Your November 6th. 1918 patent would also have great difficuly to have been delivered and issued in time for arrival in Europe in time to be a true "trench watch".
> ...


Here you go!

All of these watches were made before the patents were granted.

This was published in the August 10, 1918 edition of the El Paso Herald.

All 3 generations of the Depollier waterproof watches were available in 1918.

Two of them were available before the fighting ended.

This Hixson Jewelers advert pertains to the 1st generation of Depollier waterproof watch and MANY Depollier adverts back this up as well dating back to July and August of 1918.

Depollier did in FACT have a waterproof watch available 4 months before The Armistice was signed.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Seriously, how can you stamp a watch with a patent date prior to the patent being granted?
It is an impossibility.
Your Hixson advert states nowhere that it is advertising the Field and Marine. It could be the earlier waterproof cases, not this clamshell design black case.
From "you can't always rely on the adverts" to relying on adverts (third party at that) in less than an hour. That's mind bending Stan! ;-)


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Ah, I see what you mean. You are now bringing a non-clamshell, non-black finish watch into the discussion.
This design has nothing to do with what we are doing here. I fail to understand it's significance with what we are discussing.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

What you are truly failing to understand here is that there were 3 generations of Depollier waterproof watches using different patents and that the watches were made when the patents were APPLIED for, NOT when they were granted!

But, if you want something that says "Field and Marine" from August of 1918 I will be more than happy to have you eat some crow.

This advert is dated August 1918 and the Hixson advert is dated August 10, 1918.

Within the advert is states that deliveries will begin on or about August 15th.

Just because you have not done your homework and proper research does NOT mean that I have not!

I have TONS of data on this subject, none of which I will be posting, you're just going to have to buy the next book.....................................

You are looking in all the wrong places for your data or you are completely unaware of what really happened chronologically when it comes to Depollier Waterproof watches.


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## simpletreasures (Apr 22, 2012)

"Germany had formally surrendered on November 11, 1918, and all nations had agreed to stop fighting while the terms of peace were negotiated. On June 28, 1919, Germany and the Allied Nations (including Britain, France, Italy and Russia) signed the Treaty of Versailles, formally ending the war."

What am I missing?
How many of these watches could have actually made it into the "war" based on the dates of the ad and the time line?


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

It took LESS than a week to cross the Atlantic Ocean in 1918 by boat.

So that leaves 3 months and 3 weeks on the table.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I won't be having to eat that crow. In what universe is that watch anything to do with the black clamshell case?
Are you being obtuse?

I do not fail to understand anything Stan, those case can be made ten years prior to the patent being granted, but they cannot be STAMPED with that actual date until after notification of the date of a successful application being granted.
Unless Depollier had a time machine.

The Hixson ad is not for the watch case under discussion, neither is your fishbowl ad, great as it is.
Please, this is all about the black field and marine clamshell, if you have any proof of this being in WW1 please show it, as all this digression is just "smoke and mirrors" otherwise.

If you are going to get all nasty again, please stop.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Literustyfan said:


> The earliest date near any of these adverts is September 1919, I did not see anything near July 1919.


I just posted the link in this reply, and if you refuse to believe your own eyes, and the snippets that show two pages as having ads for the black case Depollier then that's not my fault. As I said, the book date on the link is July 1919.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Literustyfan said:


> It took LESS than a week to cross the Atlantic Ocean in 1918 by boat.
> 
> So that leaves 3 months and 3 weeks on the table.


The case under discussion is the June 10 patent, leaving 17 days to stamp, parcel, deliver, to military, military to send to the QM stores in Europe, the QM to issue to troops.
Oh wait, the troops were issued with the watch prior to going overseas.
I doubt any troops were sent out after the end of the war in 1918.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The Depollier 'D-D' 'fishbowl' advert from August 1918 shows a watch bearing no resemblance to either the June 10th. 1919 patented watch, or the one stamped with the June 11th. 1918 patent.
I wonder which one it could be, as the earlier ones I think I remember you saying were not passed as fitfor purpose by the military.
I may be wrong though, I will have to look through old threads if you can't correct me.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

If the watch in the advert above is tan inaccurate depiction of the June 11 1918 patent watch, the watches were expected to begin delivery 'on or about August 15th (1918)'.
This is two months and four days after the patent granted date.
If we say that a similar delivery date was to be expected for the June 10th. 1919 patented watch, that puts us well into August 1919, well after the treaty was signed.
Proof of my original statement regarding this watch.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

You said the adverts started in July 1919, you were wrong on that, it is September 1919.

It's September 15, 1919 to be exact.

You are looking at the first page of a VOLUME of magazines that are combined together that started in July of 1919, the advert does not show up until September.

You wanted "Field & Marine" during the war, I gave it to you in August 1918.

This watch was just like a car, it was improved upon and new a model/version became available under the same name, "Field & Marine", hence GENERATIONS of Depollier Waterproof watches.

The watches were made BEFORE the patents were granted.....................PERIOD!

No matter what PROOF I post you are going to find some reason or another to start an argument.

It is NOT all about the black Field & Marine watch, and I have NO idea where you got "clamshell" from either.

Depollier had waterproof watches available WELL before The Armistice was signed with PLENTY of time left to get them in the field.........................PERIOD!

I'm taking a break from this, it is becoming exhausting.

I have come to the realization that you do not have a clue as to what you are talking about when it comes to Depollier Waterproof watches.

You did not even know what a 1st generation case looked like until I posted it, nor to you know what the 2nd generation case is all about and the improvements that were made.

You seriously need to chill out and realize that there are others in this world that are FAR more knowledgeable on this subject that you.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm sorry, with that attitude you just aren't selling your book to me. Possibly others too.

Dates stamped inside a watch case you show and any others seen cannot be stamped on those cases prior to leaving the workshop. The case can be made and sitting at Depolliers on the shelf, but until the US Patents office contact Depollier on or around June 10th. 1919 telling Depollier they got the 'green light' on their latest patent, they can't stamp that date inside each case. Q.E.D.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

If you are correct about the advert dates, that backs up what I say about when those newest patent watches were issued. Three months after the patent issued date, we start to see abig advertising push by Waltham. If they were available prior to that date, we would find adverts showing them.
We don't.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The first two pics are front and rear of 1918 nickel cases, these are thought by some to be painted, opposed to the known ads/milspecs for these that say they are oxidised.
The third pic is a 1919 patent case also thought by some to be painted.
The fourth is a pic of a silver case oxidised recently by Stan, and the similarity between this and the Fahy case back pic is undeniable.
The fifth pic is of the bezel of a silver case, oxidised and polished by Stan, and the similarities between it and the finish to any of the supposedly painted cases' finishes are also undeniable.
As nickel takes to oxidisation so much quicker, easier and heavier than does silver, I think that this makes for a very strong case pro-oxidised for all the ones seen to date.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

You made a good point Bobbee.

But, how can it be explained that the inside of the case backs on the Depolliers do not have any treatment?

The inside of the case backs are bare metal, no treatment, only the outside of the cases have a black finish.

I would imagine that doing this on a large scale would require some kind of vat or tank of sorts, so they would be submerged?

Coat the inside of the case backs and other threaded parts with wax or some other substance?

I could see problems with a TRUE hermetic seal if the oxidation process got into the grooves of the threading on the bezels and case backs.

On semi-hermetic cases this would not pose much of an issue because they were not designed to be fully waterproof, just somewhat resistant.

I just checked Google Images and none of the other waterproof cases have any treatment on the inside of the case backs.

Did they just batten down the hatches on the case, screw everything down tightly then stick them in the tank perhaps?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I would think so, just assemble each case and some kind of frame/racks with lots of plugs attached. Each case could then be pushed onto one of these plugs where the crystal would be, thus sealing the watch's interior from the treatment bath. This could also serve as a quality control measure, as any cases that had any of the staining to the interior after the process had failed to be waterproof and would be discarded/mended.
After the process and polishing, the gold heat sinks and crystals could then be fitted and final quality control/proofing tests.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Literustyfan said:


> You made a good point Bobbee.
> 
> But, how can it be explained that the inside of the case backs on the Depolliers do not have any treatment?


Could these areas, not reqd for oxidising, have been protected from oxidisation with a simple brushed on coat of shellac or wax...
It would be easily removed afterwards and could probably withstand a cold process...just a guess as I havn't researched it.

Edit... sorry just re-read your post and see that you already suggested that, maybe that's where I got the idea from, worrying. LOL


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> I would think so, just assemble each case and some kind of frame/racks with lots of plugs attached. Each case could then be pushed onto one of these plugs where the crystal would be, thus sealing the watch's interior from the treatment bath. This could also serve as a quality control measure, as any cases that had any of the staining to the interior after the process had failed to be waterproof and would be discarded/mended.
> After the process and polishing, the gold heat sinks and crystals could then be fitted and final quality control/proofing tests.


Good thinking.


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Bobbee,What would liver of sulphor do to the crystal?Maybe nothing,maybe the only thing that need plugging were the crown tube?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Crown is locking and waterproof. Crystal should be unharmed, but maybe heat could damage it.
Cool/cold process? All these are speculation, but fun!


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Speculation agreed,fun agreed,but can a unprotected oxidation layer over nickel just give up the ghost one day and flake off,(it`s a shame i don`t own a peice this old that has been oxidized in this manner,i would take a pocket knife to the case and get the flakes analyzed with spectrolosis or similar)


Editha ha)i just googled the word spectrolosis,it doesn`t exist ,so from here on in


Spectrolosis=The study of oxidation layers to ww1 trench watch cases.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Ask this question in 100 years!
A simple waxing may be all the protection needed once polished, or the shellac coating possibly.
If the known watches are oxidised not painted, some sort of coating was probably applied.
If done heavily enough, maybe the oxidisation process plus polishing would be enough.
The Youtube tutorial video I linked earlier mentioned that if the solution of liver of sulphur was too strong, flaking could occur to the finish. Maybe a stronger but not too strong solution could give a thicker layer, that would hold better? Paint flakes when dried too quickly too, so there seem to be many similarities between paint/oxidisation as a coating.


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

I stated "unprotected" oxidized finish because wasn`t that the required spec from the military,a dull black finish?


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

If we really think that there is a chance that this is paint then we just need to look to see
what paint was available 100 years ago which could paint 'straight' onto nickel.

If there were evidence of a priming coat we would surely know so we can assume no primer.

Is there a recipe for this paint in the secret information I wonder?

The oxidised surface of the two U.S Army Engineer compasses I have, has lasted well.
These, of course, would never see the rubbing of a watch but it is still very stable and sound,
these two never had a protective laquer coat but would have been kept in a case.

Oxidised surfaces don't just easily rub off, it can take years of wear. Secret chemical recipes could
involve fixers and stabilisers as well as reagents, chemicals such as arsnic I seem to remember that some
microscope tubes were said to be finished oxidised 'arsnic black'.


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## busmatt (Aug 5, 2012)

Apollonaught said:


> Speculation agreed,fun agreed,but can a unprotected oxidation layer over nickel just give up the ghost one day and flake off,(it`s a shame i don`t own a peice this old that has been oxidized in this manner,i would take a pocket knife to the case and get the flakes analyzed with spectrolosis or similar)
> 
> Editha ha)i just googled the word spectrolosis,it doesn`t exist ,so from here on in
> 
> Spectrolosis=The study of oxidation layers to ww1 trench watch cases.


Just so you are all aware, Spectrolosis can only be carried out by a professional Pontilliard Re-Flancher

And as we all know they are thin on the ground, so good luck.

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

@apollonaught,
The specs called for oxidized nickel cases with a dull black finish. We don't know what time can do to any such finish.
Radger has made me realise something with his post.
We know of oxidised finishes for watch cases, but nothing of paint finishes. Does anyone have any info
on such finishes? Stan has researched paint finishes, and has obviously come up blank because he tried different ways for himself.
There has been a couple of years since his last paint attempts, maybe some info has surfaced since then, hope someone can help.


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

What do you guys think of this one,Painted?
(I am considering buying this piece to perform spectrolosis on it,and recording my findings for the sake of Horology)
HM Silver Trench Type Watch G S London 1909 | eBay


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Great example of how oxidisation looks like flaking paint.

Good find Apollonaught.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

bobbee said:


> Great example of how oxidisation looks like flaking paint.
> 
> Good find Apollonaught.
> 
> ...


Nice watch ! Kind of like this one ?!! Cheers Scott









Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

That is a very early watch that Apollonaught has found, it pre-dates ww1 by a few years, being from 1909.

It is a ladies watch in a silver case, the case is exactly as you would expect for an old silver watch which has lain unloved
for years.
No need for spectro analysis as that is aged and tarnished silver, I guarantee it.

Nickel would never tarnish naturally like this, it would need to be processed.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here are a couple of cool patents. Both Depollier, but the first is for a double crystal with lume paint sandwiched between them! The second has the waterproof case of Jan. 28, 1919.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> That is a very early watch that Apollonaught has found, it pre-dates ww1 by a few years, being from 1909.
> 
> It is a ladies watch in a silver case, the case is exactly as you would expect for an old silver watch which has lain unloved
> for years.
> ...


One thing, the watch I showed, that I just purchased, but don't have it yet, is actually 37mm excluding the crown, so they look similar but are quite different - men vs woman I guess ! Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Sdasurrey said:


> One thing, the watch I showed, that I just purchased, but don't have it yet, is actually 37mm excluding the crown, so they look similar but are quite different - men vs woman I guess ! Scott
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


That second watch is your watch Scott, nice.
Is this a silver or a steel (gunmetal) case do you know?

The watch Apollonaught posted is the ladies watch, the size and particularly the gold dot minute markers
give it away as such.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> That second watch is your watch Scott, nice.
> Is this a silver or a steel (gunmetal) case do you know?
> 
> The watch Apollonaught posted is the ladies watch, the size and particularly the gold dot minute markers
> give it away as such.


Radger - it was advertised as 'gun metal' which I suppose from the pics is oxidised mostly copper Alloy ? It's not silver as far as I can tell and I should have it in my hands on Wednesday, I was just trying to be clear and differentiate the 37 mm size excluding the crown compared to apollonaught's watch ! SDA

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks Radger,the learning curve straightened out a bit there,so Nickel as opposed to Silver oxidizes differently,the Silver oxidizing better and for longer?
@Scott,Nice,I like the look of that.(i knew the watch i posted was a ladies,i was considering buying it to learn about oxidation,hands on)


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> That second watch is your watch Scott, nice.
> Is this a silver or a steel (gunmetal) case do you know?
> 
> The watch Apollonaught posted is the ladies watch, the size and particularly the gold dot minute markers
> give it away as such.


Radger - I'm happy to donate this watch to the 'Oxidation/Paint Trench Watch Research Centre' for further study.

When I get it, I will forward it on to you at the Centre ! Cheers, Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Apollonaught said:


> Thanks Radger,the learning curve straightened out a bit there,so Nickel as opposed to Silver oxidizes differently,the Silver oxidizing better and for longer?
> @Scott,Nice,I like the look of that.(i knew the watch i posted was a ladies,i was considering buying it to learn about oxidation,hands on)


Silver, naturally, oxidizes to black very easily, nickel not so and would require a chemical process to turn it black.

It's all in the chemistry really, unfortunately I know little of the processes involved to achieve the multitude of different coloured oxidised surfaces
which can be achieved on copper based alloys.
Closely guarded secret recipes probably died along with long defunct companies.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Sdasurrey said:


> Radger - I'm happy to donate this watch to the 'Oxidation/Paint Trench Watch Research Centre' for further study.
> 
> When I get it, I will forward it on to you at the Centre ! Cheers, Scott
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Well that is a very generous offer, but seriously, the watch would be wasted on me. I have
trench watches by the drove and have steel cased examples already, some requiring my attention
which I may never get round to.

Thank you, the offer is appreciated but please keep your watch or donate it to a more deserving cause.
It is a rare type, far rarer than silver or nickel cases

I don't think your watch will be gunmetal (copper based alloy) as such, it is most likely steel which is chemically oxidised black.
These black steel watches hold their surface finish well.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

This shows that the June 10th. 1919 patent refers only to the heatshield.

https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US...a=X&ei=1Hc3VaCpApLB7Aam3YHgDQ&ved=0CDkQ6wEwBA


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> Well that is a very generous offer, but seriously, the watch would be wasted on me. I have
> trench watches by the drove and have steel cased examples already, some requiring my attention
> which I may never get round to.
> 
> ...


Hi Radger - I received the watch today and with limited knowledge it seems like you are right that it's early steel. Not sure I can describe why, just a feel - underneath the corrosion it seems shiny not like a copper based alloy. I haven't got it open yet as its a little 'stubborn' to check any hallmarks but in trying to get it open its clearly shiny underneath the corrosion......S

If you want to come to Surrey to open it I'll buy you a coffee tomorrow at around 10 am !



















Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Apollonaught (Jun 18, 2014)

@Scott,If it`s a screw down case back you may be doing more harm than good trying to open it that way,please wait for more help,or better still,donate the watch to me

P.M sent.


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## 28A (Jan 12, 2015)

If it doesn't have a hinge it'll be a screw back I reckon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

The June 10, 1919 patent is for the heatshield as posted above.
Has anyone actually seen the model _without_ the heatshield? I don't mean just missing, I mean an earlier design that actually was sold as opposed to designed.
Stan alludes to one (I think) with the August 1918 'fishbowl' advert, but did that actually get released, as the only one seen earlier without all of the patents still had a heatshield and bore the legend 'patent applied', but still has a heatshield.
This patent was applied for in December 1918, and this is probably why Stan claims his example was made in that month/year.


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Apollonaught said:


> @Scott,If it`s a screw down case back you may be doing more harm than good trying to open it that way,please wait for more help,or better still,donate the watch to me
> 
> P.M sent.


Apollonaught - thanks I replied to he PM - there aren't any viable screws..burin didn't try very hard to open it...S

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Sdasurrey said:


> Hi Radger - I received the watch today and with limited knowledge it seems like you are right that it's early steel. Not sure I can describe why, just a feel - underneath the corrosion it seems shiny not like a copper based alloy. I haven't got it open yet as its a little 'stubborn' to check any hallmarks but in trying to get it open its clearly shiny underneath the corrosion......S
> 
> If you want to come to Surrey to open it I'll buy you a coffee tomorrow at around 10 am !
> 
> Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry I missed the coffee Scott but I was at work and unfortunately I live at the other end of the country to you.
Nice thought though, would have been better than work anyday.

This will be a snap back I'd think, I've never saw a screw back steel case but you don't see these every day so I'm not
absolutely sure I'm almost sure though.

If it is snap back and hasn't been opened for years it could be very tight indeed.
A very good case knife and a good technique or a 'bezel and case back opening tool' should do it (can be had cheap on the bay).


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

radger said:


> Sorry I missed the coffee Scott but I was at work and unfortunately I live at the other end of the country to you.
> Nice thought though, would have been better work anyday.
> 
> This will be a snap back I'd think, I've never saw a screw back steel case but you don't see these every day so I'm not
> ...


Radger - No worries !!! After all your contributions - anytime you want coffee - I'll come to you - you can come to Surrey, I'll pay ! No worries !!! Many thanks ! Scott

PS - I have the watch tools so will try your suggestions on opening later after a couple of glasses of wine !

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JOSE G (Oct 24, 2012)

I just got this on the mail today and it has traces of black paint on it.
One thing I notice is the hour hand on the ones with with black paint is different.
Vintage Waltham Trench Watch 1917 WWI Sterling Silver Case Wire Lugs | eBay


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

That's a fantastic watch José, you should easily find the history of the original owner!
Regarding the "paint" on the case, are you certain it's paint? We established that silver is incredibly difficult to paint, and the finish is likely to be natural/applied oxidisation.
Once again, great find!

Bob.


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## JOSE G (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks Bob.
You are right I would not call it paint the best way I can describe an it looks just like it ,when you use JB Weld on top of metal.
I'm an automobile technician "mechanic"
it leaves a thing coating on top of the metal.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

With all the references to the military specifications of US watches during WW1and later, I'm wondering if we have all been barking up the wrong tree?
Mention has been made by all regarding what is right or wrong with case material/coatings, dial colours, lume spots V full and others.
We have only the 1916 milspecs to go by, as those from 1918 and 1920 are known to have existed, but have been lost, and any references to them are speculation only and not facts per se.

The 1916 milspecs are as a matter of fact not referring to wrist watches in the "normal" sense, but to *wristlets,* or pocket watches placed in a leather holder.
This can be seen in the diagrams and the descriptions,i.e.- "The dial shall be white enamel".

These two snippets show both the description of a wristlet and images of them too. 
Do these milspecs then have any bearing on watches from later, after 1918? Watches with lugs, and without enamel dials?


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is the full article concerning military specs.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is a Depollier watch with an obviously oxidised finish.
This watch case has such a beautiful original patina, with, to me, not a lick of paint in sight.

Many of this type of case can be seen with the finish totally gone, mostly gone, partly gone or in excellent shape, but those that look painted could have been refinished after the original oxidised finish had been worn away.
The military would definitely give a watch bought in for a service a new finish if the original was wearing off.

This case is the most telling in the argument that Depollier actually finished these watches as they were actually advertised in all their 1st. party adverts, as a _*"Waterproof, oxidized case".*_

Cheers, Bob.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

This is the only advert to contradict the rest of the adverts (originally posted by Stan in post #337 in this thread), and it appears to be a third party advert. It says "Japanned" instead of "Oxidized".
It even gets the case material wrong for this MK3 model, by stating silver, not nickel! LOL!!!


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Here is a Depollier watch with an obviously oxidised finish.
> This watch case has such a beautiful original patina, with, to me, not a lick of paint in sight.
> 
> Many of this type of case can be seen with the finish totally gone, mostly gone, partly gone or in excellent shape, but those that look painted could have been refinished after the original oxidised finish had been worn away.
> ...


Amazing.

That is the best condition and most original looking Depollier waterproof watch I've saw,
and complete with period photo.

If that is not the original OXIDISED finish then I'll eat my laptop.
That watch should be in a museum.

It goes a very long way to prove 'to me at least' that Depolliers original adverts were correct.

The testing of watches which could have been subsequently painted at any time in their hundred year history, is
meaningless if the truth of the matter is trully sought.

Very nice to see this watch, can the owner shed some light to its provenance?

Nice one Bobbee, the truth will be out.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Owner is not available at this time, am trying other avenues to contact him.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Always good to read and see all the photos and facts
Military Divers Watches

"Hi,
Just tok photos of four of my military divers watches.

1) Jacques Depollier pateneted water proof cased Waltham for the *US Army circa 1916.* Original fabric strap and original Khaki buckle. Picture of soldiers wife or girlfriend on back. Screw down crown before Rolex."

Plus lots more to read and see of these lovely amazing pieces - many look painted to me.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS" Military Divers Watch Forums


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## Case61 (Aug 24, 2015)

I think the book looks fascinating. I've put in with the wife to get me one for my birthday, which is this month.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Yes, three very differently finished Depolliers in that thread.
One looks really shiny and freshly done, and probably is. The Illinois could be a really well done and well kept oxidised one, or it could be a later refinished one, but still done many years ago.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Case61 said:


> I think the book looks fascinating. I've put in with the wife to get me one for my birthday, which is this month.


The book is an outstanding piece of Horology, you should also consider the authers 2nd book on Waltham that in my opinion is even better, and breaks all the myths on Depolleir as well as many others
You can see about it here:
http://www.lrfantiquewatches.com/Waltham-Trench-Watch-Book.html

and Elgin here
LRF Antique Trench Watches - Trench Watch Home

Regards
a
PS Happy Birthday!


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

radger said:


> Amazing.
> 
> That is the best condition and most original looking Depollier waterproof watch I've saw,
> and complete with period photo.
> ...


Radger et al, I have since been in contact with the owner, Seth, a long-time and very knowledgeable military watch collector who owns an extensive collection of both the Depollier cased watches, and original rare (if not unique) literature and catalogues concerning the Waterproof & Dustproof watches.

He has confirmed that the Waltham is indeed in original condition, and the finish IS OXIDIZED!

Here is a quote from his message to me:



> Case is original. Case is slightly different dimension than my Elgin Depollier. The Waltham is oxidized as you mention, while the Elgins seem to have the black Enamel case.


So, it looks like the original finish IS as the adverts say, AND as _the known_ milspecs demanded.

Cheers, Bob.

EDIT- perhaps the military later refinished the watches to comply with new military specs?
This would probably be post 1920-ish, as I cannot find ANY information on a paint finish used on wrist watches or any watch cases during WW1, before or after. And believe me, I have looked REALLY hard, as I believe anyone will or would be who have an interest in showing/proving that these cases were originally painted black!

If any proof of painting (originally) had been found, I'm sure we would have heard it by now.

Bob.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Radger et al, I have since been in contact with the owner, Seth, a long-time and very knowledgeable military watch collector who owns an extensive collection of both the Depollier cased watches, and original rare (if not unique) literature and catalogues concerning the Waterproof & Dustproof watches.
> 
> He has confirmed that the Waltham is indeed in original condition, and the finish IS OXIDIZED!
> 
> ...


Very good info Bob.

I'm not surprised that this Waltham is considered ORIGINAL and OXIDISED, it fits and confirms all
the written evidence from that time.

Truth and common sense will always trump the irrational super egos.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

More accurate info here:
Stan's New Book on WALTHAM and The Great War... - Page 16

Regards
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> More accurate info here:
> Stan's New Book on WALTHAM and The Great War... - Page 16
> 
> Regards
> adam


Don't you mean "Less Accurate"?

Here is my reply to yours and Stans strange posts in reply to the above:



> WE ARE MERELY TALKING ABOUT THE FINISH OF THE CASE.
> 
> Nothing is or was mentioned about the movement, hands or dial.
> I asked Seth a question about the case only, and received a reply about the case only. Please read the above excerpt of our correspondence again, and please stop reading things into it that never occurred.
> ...


I will reiterate, just to be clear.

I asked the owner _*only about the finish to the case. his reply was only about the finish to the case.*_

To try to belittle the owner, a long time collector and member of MWR, who is quite knowledgeable about his collection, in an attempt to prove one's point, is wrong.

Cheers, Bob.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is another Depollier case that looks to me as if the very scant remains of the finish are oxidised.

Stan's New Book on WALTHAM and The Great War... - Page 17


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I do not believe anyone could categorically tell from that photo if its oxidized or painted. 
And if it is oxidized, it surely does not surprise me they moved to black paint, as the oxidized examples seem less durable (to me anyway)

a


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I do not believe anyone could categorically tell from that photo if its oxidized or painted.
> And if it is oxidized, it surely does not surprise me they moved to black paint, as the oxidized examples seem less durable (to me anyway)
> 
> a


It is great that you are finally seeing that some of these cases have their original oxidised finish.

I have been saying for quite a while that it is possible that these cases, due to heavy wear day after day, had their finish worn down. Oxidised finishes are known to be easily worn off, but a rough uniform would remove any finish quickly, even if protected with some kind of lacquer.

I have also been saying for a long while that it is possible that the military then refinished the cases as a matter of course when the watches were handed back for servicing, as who wants a nice, smart uniform being offset with a patchy, unkempt wristwatch case?
It makes sense to "upgrade" the finish along with the movement.
It is great that we are finally coming to some accord over these watches.

Cheers, Bob.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I can only repeat
"I do not believe anyone could categorically tell from that photo if its oxidized or painted. 
And if it is oxidized, it surely does not surprise me they moved to black paint, as the oxidized examples seem less durable (to me anyway)"

How you can tell from that photo its oxidized is beyond me, yetv dozens of photos painted you refused to accept ------ until we got it scientifically tested and lo and behold - paint and only paint!


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## simpletreasures (Apr 22, 2012)

> How you can tell from that photo its oxidized is beyond me, yetv dozens of photos painted you refused to accept ------ until we got it scientifically tested and lo and behold - paint and only paint!


Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly..........................

Stan had *1 speck* on *1case* tested through a lab, the lab reports said that the results on *"that ONE case"* were paint?

Stan then *concludes that all those finishes are paint?

Sorry, doesn't sound scientific or conclusive to me.
*
I've (somewhat) enjoyed reading this thread, with the exception of the name calling or hissy fits. I think some very good work has been done, and some questions have been raised. I'm looking forward to being able to read more, as it's discovered.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi

Just to clarify.
Stan never did anything, the NAWCC Museum had the case scientifically tested at an official testing laboratory, I got no idea where you get "1 speck"
They (the laboratories)took exactly what they needed for the multiple tests that were actually conducted (from memory) at two different company laboratories.

The conclusion on that "one" case it it was painted and never any sign of oxidization.

Secondly, I do not believe Stan has ever recently claimed that "_*all those finishes were paint*_" - Can you point me to where you say he claims that? If not, you should not claim it.

Finally


> *Sorry, doesn't sound scientific or conclusive to me.*


Well its 100% more scientific than either looking at Greg Harts watch and claiming "it is oxidized" or "the advert says it"

But these are just my opinions based on the facts, others are entitled to theirs.
People must make their own decision. based on these type of threads or there own experiences

Sincerely
Adam
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS NAWCC MUSEUM


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Following simpletreasures comment that I definitely agree with as an Economist/model builder that nothing for a population can be generalised from one sample test - can we just maintain some kind of civil decorum in how we approach this discussion.

I find it kind of interesting every time I see this long running thread dialectic that pops up its citing me because I started it as a compliment to the book !

So let's keep it objective if possible and be adult in our approach. 

But really aren't human rights around the world, the migrant crisis in Europe, the timing of the first Federal Reserve interest rate hike and reducing all forms of cancer more important ? So let's chill where required and put this in perspective. 

I'm NOT a mod - I'm just the 'thread starter' - trying not to promote a little decorum and a little humour - cheers, SDA 


Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

My opinion on Greg's watch, after zooming into the clearest photo.



> Here is another Depollier case that looks to me as if the very scant remains of the finish are oxidised.


As you can see, I am merely expressing my opinion after close examination.

Your statements appear to think I am "categorically claiming" that the watch is oxidised. I am saying that "It looks like" it is. To me. In my humble opinion.



> I do not believe anyone could categorically tell from that photo if its oxidized or painted





> Well its 100% more scientific than either looking at Greg Harts watch and claiming "it is oxidized" or "the advert says it"





> How you can tell from that photo its oxidized is beyond me


Let's calmly wait until Greg gets back with his opinion on his watch, please.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

One test is better than no test.

and I concur


> So let's keep it objective if possible and be adult in our approach.


Adam


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> One test is better than no test.
> 
> and I concur
> 
> Adam


One test sample statistically = no test statistically

EDIT - actually I will correct myself - a 'sample' can be interpreted as more than one outcome out of many outcomes when undertaking statistical tests of significance - to statistically 'generalise' from any sample of outcomes to a broader population of outcomes so......corrected as follows:

'A single test outcome out of many used in a statistical test = no statistical test of any significance' - therefore it's not generalisable ....

SDA

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## river rat (Apr 6, 2008)

Here is mine a Elgin with a Pershing dial. On the back of the case was scratched 29th Div. they were trained in 1917 and went to France 1918 from the serial number on movement the watch was made in 1918 so this was used in WW1 and mite of been a issued watch. The 29th was known as the Blue and Gray div. Cool I was able to find one that was used in the great war.


~[/URL

~[URL=http://s370.photobucket.com/user/riverratone/media/DSCN1099_zps1cvssp9a.jpg.html][/URL


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

You certainly were.

Thanks for sharing
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

river rat said:


> Here is mine a Elgin with a Pershing dial. On the back of the case was scratched 29th Div. they were trained in 1917 and went to France 1918 from the serial number on movement the watch was made in 1918 so this was used in WW1 and mite of been a issued watch. The 29th was known as the Blue and Gray div. Cool I was able to find one that was used in the great war.
> 
> 
> ~[/URL
> ...




Beautiful watch RR, looks like you have the "Foch" model.

March 1919 advert.









Here is your model on the wrist!


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

simpletreasures said:


> Let me see if I'm understanding this correctly..........................
> 
> Stan had *1 speck* on *1case* tested through a lab, the lab reports said that the results on *"that ONE case"* were paint?
> 
> ...


An interesting topic which has turned into quite a sorry saga internet wide.

Bobbee, despite the attacks from self congratulating specialists, has kept a clear
head and stuck to the facts, the facts have prevailed.

It started months ago when a solid silver (not nickel) U.S trench watch was posted in this forum.
It had a quite obvious NATURAL black oxidised layer.

The poster, Literrustyfan, swore blind it was painted....he had secret information which proved this was paint
and when pressed said that he had seen 'original' factory painted solid silver trench watches.

We have yet to see one of these 'original painted solid silver' trench watches.

It was this inability to discern a naturally oxidized finish from a chemically oxidized or a painted finish which
seems to have elevated this discussion into horological hyperspace resulting in expensive mass spectrometry
tests and all sorts of other nonsense.

These Nickel Depollier waterproof watches were supplied with an oxidized finish, I've no doubt. All the evidence
points to it and over time more examples with the remains of the original finish will appear, the specialists will
have egg on their face because of their intransigent stance.


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## simpletreasures (Apr 22, 2012)

Adam,

A couple of weeks ago the NAWCC Museum and I decided to send out the museum's Depollier Waterproof Case with the black finish for independent laboratory testing.[/QUOTE]

This is the first statement that Stan himself posted in his thread on the NAWCC forum, it's what led me to believe what I stated in my last post.

So if I'm mistaken in that it wasn't a assertion that Stan was making, should I assume that the NAWCC is wrong in this limited testing?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Sorry, I don't understand your meaning to below:


> should I assume that the NAWCC is wrong in this limited testing?


wrong? What you meany by wrong. NAWCC tested one case to confirm if it was painted or oxidized, and the result was painted with no signs of previous treatment (oxidization)

NAWCC owns the watch and the full laboratory tests - they are NOT Stans, and the Museum will share them with any legitimate person.

On yours and others claims that "its limited" or "not statistical" - well its the ONLY to date scientifically tests done, and of course people can make their own conclusion.
I made mine based on that test *and* all the other painted pieces I have seen, touched and contained in the Museum.

I am not forcing anyone else to accept my conclusion, but I have a right to voice it.
_*NOTE OF CLARITY:
What the "museums" conclusion to this can only be expressed by the Museum director. I, Stan others are purely expressing their own conclusion. None of us represent the Museum in this.*_

Adam


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## Mirius (Mar 18, 2011)

I would advise and remind all members that further stirring, allusions and comments referring to other members will not be tolerated. 

Some excellent points have been made and discussed in this thread. There is no need to make them personal.


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

Great watch!

This is one of the two known cases that was accepted by the United States Army in 1918.

It's an "OreSilver" case that was made by Joseph Fahys & Company.

Semi-Hermetic (threaded) case with nice and wide 16mm lugs.










This is the other known case that was used by the United States Army in 1918.

Made by the Illinois Watch Case Company, semi-hermetic case design, Nickel, the case threading on this version is a bit better than the one on the Fahys model, the threading is just a little bit deeper & thicker.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

What is that lume dot on the eagles head??


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

I believe that the "lum dot" on the Eagle's head (along with the other lum dots) were done by a US Army watchmaker when the watch was serviced over the years.

They did not originally come that way from the factory.

As the lum would weaken that was originally on the numerals I don't think that the Army watchmakers had the skills/tools to replace it with exact precision.

So, they reverted back to a simpler "lum dot" method at the hour markers.

This can clearly be seen in the picture of this watch in the from the War Department Technical Manual TM 9-575 dated May 4, 1942.

These watches were STILL being used in the second world war, they served the United States very well!

Here is a picture of this watch next to the watch from TM 9-575, you can clearly see that the Eagle lum dot is identical, page 13 of "Elgin Trench Watches of the Great War".


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Now that is interesting that the WWII army book added a dot to the eagles head!

Wonder why - maybe artist was a traitor??


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Interesting, I have TM9-1575 dated 6 April 1945 and it does not have that photo.
What date is TM9-575?

Cause I prefer your book (cry)


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## Literustyfan (Jan 23, 2014)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Interesting, I have TM9-1575 dated 6 April 1945 and it does not have that photo.
> What date is TM9-575?
> 
> Cause I prefer your book (cry)


War Department Technical Manual TM 9-575 dated May 4, 1942.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Cool
Just shows how often its updated
Thanks


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Here is another Depollier case that looks to me as if the very scant remains of the finish are oxidised.
> 
> Stan's New Book on WALTHAM and The Great War... - Page 17


Here is another I found which seems to have survived subsequent painting.

Not much of the oxidized layer left at all.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Great find radger!!!
That looks to be the factory oxidised finish alright.

I have seen another too, am still searching for it again, as I forgot to download it. :-(

Until then, here are some more and better close ups of Greg's Illinois-filled case!

For JerryT! Illinois Depollier...


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

A couple more...





























...and the box they came in.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> A couple more...


They look original too.

The difference between these watches and the very well worn painted Depolliers is quite distinct.

The well worn painted watches, and there are many, show patches of distinct depth.
There are examples, where the paint is worn or chipped, which seem show a greyish priming coat
underneath the black painted layer.

A special acid etching base priming coat makes good sense if a fairly durable painted finish is req'd on
base metal.

But these watches show no sign of ever having been painted.

It reminds me of 'the chicken and egg'....what came first, oxidised layer or the paint.
The evidence is stacking up.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

radger said:


> They look original too.
> 
> The difference between these watches and the very well worn painted Depolliers is quite distinct.
> 
> ...


Here is a great article on an old Depollier waterproof, the most informative I have seen anywhere.

Elgin Depollier Waterproof Watch | MilSpecTime

It shows the undercoat paint you mention radger, and the "USA" stamped heatsink, showing military use. 
Further info/pics provided shows the leather washers used for waterproofing.

Cheers, Bob.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Here is how it was done in the late 19th.C.





















I have searched and searched, but not a single thing can I find regarding how to paint watch cases, from 1880's until the 1920's. Lots concerning oxidising such as the above.

Cheers, Bob.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> Here is how it was done in the late 19th.C.
> 
> I have searched and searched, but not a single thing can I find regarding how to paint watch cases, from 1880's until the 1920's. Lots concerning oxidising such as the above.
> 
> Cheers, Bob.


Great discovery of these old oxidising recipes.
Very, very interesting indeed.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

If painting of watch cases was possible in the late 19th. and early 20th.C. we would find evidence of it. If oxidation methods are so broadly covered, we would see any painting methods alongside them in publications such as the one containing oxidation methods. Any replies notwithstanding, I have researched painting of watches using many search engines and can find nothing.

Those with paint are obviously refinished (in my opinion) by the military after original oxidised finish has worn off, maybe sometime in the 1940's when these Depollier cases were reissued to soldiers for WW2.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

And of course you are entitled to your opinion.
that said I can view a number of painted pieces at the Museum.

one piece laboratory tested, to paint, where the results indicated no prior oxidizing, treatments or paint touch up 

The second piece even more interesting, WWI worn in trench, with full provenance, without doubt 100% original and untouched! and it's painted brown.

these are not opinions but facts.
these ans some others exist today! and are painted.

as I say! you are entitled to your take on all the evidence! or lack of it.

its cool to me.

regards
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> And of course you are entitled to your opinion.
> that said I can view a number of painted pieces at the Museum.
> 
> one piece laboratory tested, to paint, where the results indicated no prior oxidizing, treatments or paint touch up
> ...


When you mention "provenance", you do not provide it to us here. Does this provenance show the brown paint as being original? I strongly doubt it!

These watches you speak of may indeed be painted, but you cannot prove when it was done. 
That also is a fact.

You mention yet again the lab test, this test cannot show that the test subject was originally oxidised and then rubbed down (prepped) for a paint finish sometime after it was sold/issued. You claim that the test shows this was not so, and had no prior oxidised finish. If the case(s) were thoroughly cleaned down prior to refinishing, as it would have been, then no original finish would remain!
This also is a fact.

The test removed an almost microscopic piece of the finish to use in the test, this does not show the ENTIRE case coverage. There could be evidence of an original finish in some hidden crevice somewhere.
In the above is yet another fact.

Show me your "provenance" that proves that the brown-painted watch is indeed "100% original and untouched", and the brown finish was there in WW1.
I bet you can't. How could you, do you have records of it being "brown paint finish"? I am very sceptical of such evidence.



> as I say! you are entitled to your take on all the evidence! or lack of it.


Evidence for-dozens of Depollier adverts and milspecs from the time, and several photos of watches with the original oxidised finish, several articles concerning oxidising of watch cases (no painted ones!), all posted in this very thread.

I would love to see your own evidence, apart from one lab test of one watch.

No lack of it at all.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

I am more than happy for you to remain sceptical, it does not alter in any way the information that I see.
i have taken much time closely looking, reading the archives and touching these parts, based on what I can see, what I can read from the reports and archives, in my humble opinion these pieces were and originally painted, in black or brown paint.

I have also discussed these pieces with others, much more knowledgable than I, and they too can say that in their opinion these are original painted pieces.

maybe if you had an opportunity to see and touch such items, your opinion may change.

but I am, until proven different accepting that these pieces are 100% originally painted

from my side, I have no more to add, you continue to repeat "your opinions" and I doubt if anything that I say will change those, so ENJOY

regards
adam


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I am more than happy for you to remain sceptical, it does not alter in any way the information that I see.
> i have taken much time closely looking, reading the archives and touching these parts, based on what I can see, what I can read from the reports and archives, in my humble opinion these pieces were and originally painted, in black or brown paint.
> 
> I have also discussed these pieces with others, much more knowledgable than I, and they too can say that in their opinion these are original painted pieces.
> ...


Thank you.
We can both rest from airing our opinions until more evidence turns up.

Meanwhile, still no provenance.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Agreed


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Oh damn - and I thought it was time for a nice, quiet evening! :-x

Why, oh why do you lot have to let it get to this sort of thing?!! I thought that a day or two ago, we had all agreed to differ and let it rest. On the one hand, noone is compelled to provide evidence here so please refrain from goading people to give it. On the other hand, statements not backed up by evidence have little chance of being taken seriously (and too many such statements from the same person will result in that person not being taken too seriously). Please, *PLEASE *learn to be a little more tolerant on this forum or else it will end in tears for some here.....if not a lot of people here!

I will close this thread for a day or two and will reopen it then. In the meantime, I will consult with my fellow moderators and see what action should be taken. See you all in 48 hours (at the latest) - hopefully in a less malignant state of mind. :roll:

Hartmut Richter


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thread has been reopened. I hope that it won't need to be closed again - the next time is for good!

Hartmut Richter


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## Horological_Dino (Feb 27, 2015)

Hi!

To those who own the book, may i know how much you paid for your copy? I was at my local bookstore yesterday, I realized the price was slightly steep and I held off the purchase until I have a better idea of its retail value. Answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Horological_Dino said:


> Hi!
> 
> To those who own the book, may i know how much you paid for your copy? I was at my local bookstore yesterday, I realized the price was slightly steep and I held off the purchase until I have a better idea of its retail value. Answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Stan has it for $59.99 off his site - I would have to look back to find if this is the price I paid as it may have been a little lower on issue.
Regardless, buy it direct and get it signed as any retailer is adding a 'skim' .... Cheers SDA

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Horological_Dino (Feb 27, 2015)

Thanks SDA,

My local bookstore has it up for an astonishing 110 USD. I believe it's clear where I will be getting my copy 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Sdasurrey (Oct 1, 2013)

Horological_Dino said:


> Thanks SDA,
> 
> My local bookstore has it up for an astonishing 110 USD. I believe it's clear where I will be getting my copy
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sounds like a 'usual' near 100% retail markup ! SDA

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Interesting article.
1919, possible explanation of black finish.















Not painted.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Another great article.

This article discusses chemical solutions for a 'Black Nickel' electrolytic plating process.

'Black Nickel' would seem to be the name of the finish, it is not clear what metals they were
using this finish on. 
'Barrels' are mentioned so perhaps on steel.

Very interesting this dive into the processes that were used during WW1 to protect and
darken metals used in the field.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

radger said:


> Another great article.
> 
> This article discusses chemical solutions for a 'Black Nickel' electrolytic plating process.
> 
> ...


There was mention of a crucifix being worn with a very black finish.

Here are two more articles, one from 1916, the other from 1921.
The 1921 article mentions carbon as being part of the finish.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

I would also say, there was plenty in this (these) books and magazines about oxidising metals and plating metals, but not a thing for painting of metals from this time, except for the automotive industry.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

bobbee said:


> I would also say, there was plenty in this (these) books and magazines about oxidising metals and plating metals, but not a thing for painting of metals from this time, except for the automotive industry.


I doubt you'll find anything about the painting of base metal alloys from this time.

Steel and iron on the other hand has been painted and was well understood so it is no surprise
that there is information about the painting of steel from the automative industry.

The only examples of painted base metal alloys that I can think of from the WW1 period are the so called
'Cold-Painted' Bronzes being produced in Vienna.

The recipe for this paint has long since been lost but it certainly was not durable. It would readily flake and wouldn't
really have satisfied the military or the watch industry.

Oxidisation was certainly the go to process for base metals, it is no wonder that the U.S military specified
an oxidised finish and it is no wonder that Depollier supplied their military watches, as their adverts state, to that spec.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

...using this method, perhaps?

1915, volume 11 of the Platers' Guide and Brass World, a professionals publication.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

1921 booklet first published (as in the article in post #535 above) in July 1919. It expands on the use of "black nickel" finishes used on military hardware and equipment.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015086545806;view=1up;seq=1

It tells us that finishes were unstable and/or not long lasting. This might explain the need later on to re-finish with a black paint.
When it was developed, of course.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

That is a very interesting booklet and a rare find.

Yet another nail in the coffin for the outlandish 'Painted Depollier' theory.

All that evidence that oxidation or plating was the go to method to blacken nickel backed up by your contemporary
adverts that state explicitly that the Depollier waterproofs were originally oxidised.

All backed up by military specs which stated that is how they should be finished.

Plus the fact that contemporary WW1 base metal equipment such as compasses, inclinometers, gun sights etc etc were all oxidised,
as per the military spec.

No WW1 U.S military base metal equipment that I've ever saw or heard of that was painted rather than oxidized or plated.

Plus several pics posted of different Depollier waterproofs which look to have the remains of an original oxidised finish.

Surely the 'Painted Depollier' theorists by now see the light.

Nice one Bob, that is a very interesting booklet indeed.


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## bobbee (Oct 29, 2010)

Thanks chum, I agree wholeheartedly.
Have you seen the new Depollier copies for sale, made of stainless steel with a powder coating. They look fantastic, but would have been better with an oxidised coating, more realistic! ;-)


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## simpletreasures (Apr 22, 2012)

OK bobbee, now you've gone and done it!!!

If I ever see you at a NAWCC mart or meeting I'm gonna demand they throw you out on your ear!!!!!!!:-d:-d:-d


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