# Would I ever buy a Grand Seiko...Federico Talks Watches



## Lunar Watch Club (Dec 7, 2014)

I thought the commentary here was very disspointing from someone that knows watches. We keep hearing this "Grand Seiko" = "Seiko" and therefore not worth the money...









How do you guys handle this same comment from watch collectors/enthusiasts (not really concerned about regular Joe Six Pack's opinion as he/she don't understand watches anyway)?


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Don't worry about blah-blah-blah too much. If the watch is attractive, I consider buying it.


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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

"A watch doesn't have a soul if it doesn't have a mainspring....." <-- SD does has a mainspring, that's why it's called "Spring" Drive, I'm not sure if he knows SD enough.


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## Prince Escalus (Jan 14, 2017)

I bought a Grand Seiko recently, chose it over the 39mm Oyster Perpetual which was the other consideration. I had read a lot about Seiko history, the quartz revolution, the Spring Drive and of course the Snowflake.

I did the same with Rolex, and conclusion I came to was there seemed to be a consensus that the detail and finishing in the Grand Seiko was superior among other reasons.

I liked the innovation of the Spring Drive and that it was something quite unique.

I bought the SBGA001 with a cream coloured dial.. for how long I've looked at it... I admire the refinement.. it really is aesthetically flawless

The Snowflake although quite nice, didn't 'speak' to me... also for the times I was visiting the Sydney boutique deciding, every man and his dog seemed to be asking about the Snowflake, one day it happened twice in the space of about 20 minutes hahaha... 

In any case, I love my Seiko, I'm saving for a quartz SBGV025 and a limited edition highbeat later.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

Federico is a consultant for the Richemont group ... don't expect unbiased views from him!


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

In terms of how I handle similar comments from other watch enthusiasts: many will know the truth about GS already, for those that don't, I enjoy sharing a bit of knowledge with them, and most are happy and interested to hear it. You'll always get a few for whom it's "Swiss or nothing", but I don't make it my mission to convince them! I was a bit irritated by Federico's video for sure, because for better or worse he has something of a platform; for him to play the "just a Seiko" card was disappointing, especially after he gave a fair explanation of the quality and value the watches offer.

He replied to my comments on YouTube with more nonsense as well - that dealers can't get rid of Grand Seiko for love nor money, and are offering huge discounts as a result. I wish I could find these dealers!


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Who the fu*k is Federico.

Everyone knows that Archie Luxury a.k.a Archiballs Chesterfield the Turd is the only watch critic worth listening to.

PS: Federico's face is better suited for radio.


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## Heljestrand (Oct 26, 2014)

T1meout said:


> Who the fu*k is Federico.


YouTube expert. Might even be on Intagram and Facebook as well. But definitely an expert.

Any resemblance to "Its time to make the donuts" guy is purely coincidence.

He is a horological expert and he has friends over to his co-op and they talk watches and sometimes wear watches on both wrists. They talk watches. Women are never seen in their presence.....just watches.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

Heljestrand said:


> YouTube expert. Might even be on Intagram and Facebook as well. But definitely an expert.
> 
> Any resemblance to "Its time to make the donuts" guy is purely coincidence.
> 
> He is a horological expert and he has friends over to his co-op and they talk watches and sometimes wear watches on both wrists. They talk watches. Women are never seen in their presence.....just watches.


Excellent!


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## Achtungz (Jul 18, 2015)

Nah, I feel like a lot of the stuff he says is really arrogant.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Heljestrand said:


> YouTube expert. Might even be on Intagram and Facebook as well. But definitely an expert.
> 
> Any resemblance to "Its time to make the donuts" guy is purely coincidence.
> 
> He is a horological expert and he has friends over to his co-op and they talk watches and sometimes wear watches on both wrists. They talk watches. Women are never seen in their presence.....just watches.


Is he a self proclaimed expert? Where did he attain his expert credentials?


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

Heljestrand was being ironic!

He's no more expert than the rest of us. He has worked in the industry as a watch salesman though, and now acts as a "consultant" for some "major watch brands" ... make of that what you will!


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## reggie747 (Sep 12, 2013)

The guy is just full of ......


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## theEntreriCode (Mar 3, 2015)

So the guy doesn't understand Spring Drive or Grand Seiko History. He very clearly states that he doesn't feel an emotional connect with GS (presumably because of their philosophy of letting the product market itself) and doesn't want to buy one. It's fine....people like that won't get GS and that's part of the charm of the watch in any case. 


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## Snuggie (Nov 22, 2013)

Hmm... I wonder if he knows that GS makes traditional mechanical watches too...not just SD. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but at least back it up with facts.


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## teb1013 (Jun 28, 2015)

Federico is clearly out of touch. Just look at that supercilious sneer. All I know is being out of the market for the Spring Drive at this time, I went with a Quartz SBGV027. When I first put it on I was "nice watch". Within a few days, I couldn't take my eyes off of it. No way it's "just a Seiko." Now I want a Spring Drive badly (I want a GMT with a display back). As for "just s Seiko". I recently took a look at my son's Seiko 5, as humble a watch as you could want, miles from luxury, but it is actually a nice utilitarian automatic watch, nothing to sneer at. 


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## davelemi (Mar 28, 2016)

I like Federico and although he may have different opinions, I can still respect what "speaks" to him and what watches he feels emotionally connected to. Speaking for myself while car hunting I had high expectations for an A6, 535, and E350 coming from a GS350, but I quickly learned those German cars, albeit nice, didn't feel right for me. Just my opinion. I love GS but dislike Omega...just an opinion.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

To be clear - my issue isn't about what he likes, of course it's subjective and everybody is different. The problem is that he actually said he likes the watches, that they're great quality and good value for money, but that he would never buy one because they're "just a Seiko"!


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## big_slacker (Jun 26, 2011)

Heljestrand said:


> YouTube expert. Might even be on Intagram and Facebook as well. But definitely an expert.
> 
> Any resemblance to "Its time to make the donuts" guy is purely coincidence.
> 
> He is a horological expert and he has friends over to his co-op and they talk watches and sometimes wear watches on both wrists. They talk watches. Women are never seen in their presence.....just watches.


Hahaha! Savage!


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## davelemi (Mar 28, 2016)

AndyGarton said:


> To be clear - my issue isn't about what he likes, of course it's subjective and everybody is different. The problem is that he actually said he likes the watches, that they're great quality and good value for money, but that he would never buy one because they're "just a Seiko"!


"Just a Seiko" is valid. People over here dump on Lexus as "just a Toyota" and Acura as "just a Honda". Some people understand the differences and some don't.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

davelemi said:


> "Just a Seiko" is valid. People over here dump on Lexus as "just a Toyota" and Acura as "just a Honda". Some people understand the differences and some don't.


So it's valid for those that don't understand?


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

Another babbling bimbo........


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## theEntreriCode (Mar 3, 2015)

AndyGarton said:


> So it's valid for those that don't understand?


No in general it speaks of a predisposition to not think analytically and weigh the facts on hand. He's welcome to his rather ill-informed decision of its just a Seiko. That's what I thought until I discovered for my self. Which is how Seiko prefer it don't they? I sure don't want them moving up in pricing by spending copious quantities of money on marketing.

It's a very understandable thought process, human beings aren't entirely rational. I sure as heck am not, I have two black dial watches one of which is the Presage Urushi Chrono and am thinking of getting a Speedy instead of saving up for a Grand Seiko Limited Edition or a Rolex Daytona which offer me a more rounded and diverse collection.

In terms of cars, I don't see the point of spending BMW or Mercedes money on a Lexus or Acura because I don't think they're worth it. They don't give me the drive pleasure I want. Then again I live in a country where the 320D and C200cdi cost 90,000 USD while the E350 or 530D cost 130,000 USD so nothing I can afford really gives me drive pleasure, I just need to make do.

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## wannawatch (May 8, 2013)

I think this is a 100% fair review. He doesn't in any way bash the brand or watch itself. What he explains is Th branding of the watch is what is the turn off and I agree 100%. Watches are all about branding. I do disagree with the movement as I love all these movement snobs as explain to me when a watch is on your wrist how the movement has anything to do with the enjoyment of the watch. it is a made up following just like having a 500HP 6cly being lesser then a 500HP 12cyl. No difference if power is made the same way.

Seiko developed themselves into a great bargain low range watch. That is what they developed their brand around so no it makes zero sense why they apply that to these beautiful hand made timepieces. Simply take the SEIKO off and leave the GS and allow the brand to have it's own identity that it deserves. I agree and it is the one sticking point why I don't have one. I don't like flashy brands or ID's but I also don't like spending 5x's what the item suggests I spent. 

Everybody is an authority today with the new social media outlets. I always say why would I take advise from someone unless I can verify their expertise.


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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

T1meout said:


> Who the fu*k is Federico?


Dunno, but I think he lives next door to Alice!

As for his face being radio-friendly, that may be, but his voice definitely isn't - so that really only leaves writing as an outlet.


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## frankcastle914 (Dec 3, 2016)

I enjoy Federico's show, as he does have good knowledge about the industry and specific products. Like all of us, he comes with his own bias. His career has dipped him in too much Swiss chocolate. His take on GS was disappointing because, as many comments here already point out, that he didn't take the time to educate himself more about GS offerings and simply relied on his gut. His bad. Someone in the GS community needs to see this as an opportunity and convince him otherwise. A little exposure to the product or the people behind them might sway his opinion favourably. 

YouTube can be very influential on newer watch fans (me included) and the GS brand could use some ambassadors in that media format. 

I'm thankful for this forum, because much information and passion is shared. Much of my newfound interest in GS is as a result of all the comments heard here. Thankfully, Federico is a voice of one in the watch community. 


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

There's a fine line between discussing watches and discussing the "politics" of watches. Guys like this, Archie Luxury, J Anthony, etc. can be entertaining and can even give you some perspective that you might not have considered, but at the end of the day all they're saying is what they themselves would buy. Nothing wrong with that, but it's just an enthusiasts opinion.

Conversely, I've been privileged to meet a few guys in the industry of making watches, most notably Jeff Hess (Ball) and Nick English (Bremont), and both of them spoke very highly of several competing brands, most notably Rolex; Hell, Mr. Hess co-wrote a book about the history of Rolex watches (Rolex Wristwatches: An Unauthorized History). Now *that* got my attention; it made me challenge what I thought about the brand, because I really didn't think very highly of Rolex' approach to several things. These guys know how tough it is to put a quality product out, and successfully market it, so when they speak admiringly about another brand, that carries some real weight.

EDIT: I just realized that I never actually answered OP's question. How do I deal with opinions like this? Largely, I don't. If someone actually had the temerity to come up to me and say, "Man, that's a garbage watch you're wearing; I can't believe you bought that instead of a X," I'd thank them for their unsolicited opinion and ask them what else I could change in order to be as *cool* as them. I mean, is there a particular brand of boxed macaroni & cheese I should be eating as well? I need details, man! Because here's the deal: I have eclectic tastes and I accepted a long time ago that I very rarely will be in alignment with what the majority think is the best, so I already know going into most conversations that my preferences are going to be challenged at some point. I can either try to justify them - which is a losing proposition from the start - or just accept that I'll never be one of the "cool kids." C'est la vie.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## Lunar Watch Club (Dec 7, 2014)

I don't want people to bash his character or physical attributes, not the goal of this post at all. I like Federico and he has some nice informative videos that are well worth listening to. I respect his opinion on whether he would buy it or not but as others mentioned he has a platform and to say the least a professional in the industry that pulled a big statement by denying the whole history of GS and how they do things and saying just a Seiko. 

Regular dude in the street opinion don't matter to me at all or any of us but someone with a platform and professional opinion should not be given a similar pass with a statement like this!


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## VicLeChic (Jul 24, 2013)

He's saying he has no emotional and romantic connection with the brand, big enough to justify spending thousands on a piece. He's a fan of Seiko but clearly not GS and its hybrid springdrive movement. Why is it disappointing? It's his opinion.

Plenty of people in the watch community would agree, as per the many threads on this topic out there.

Edit: I find his videos very informative


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

Who is this federico character? He has popped up in other threads and I am still not sure why I should care about his opinion. Or anyone else's for that matter. Except for archie luxurys. Now that guy knows watches.

As a side note when I went to the seiko boutique to buy my snowflake. I was wearing my sinn T1B. First the sales guy spotted it (he knew what it was) and we had a short discussion about it then the japanese seiko watch maker they had there. Comes out to get the serial number of the snowflake and then resize it. He sees my sinn which was on the counter. He it picks it up and asked me where I got it. It was obvious these guys liked watches and in particular the salesman knew a lot.

I think real watch enthusiasts appreciate quality regardless of the brand.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

He's a YouTuber who has amassed nearly 20000 subscribers in a surprisingly short amount of time. I'm sure that's down to his exceptional content, rather than paying for subs and views.


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

My better half would kill me if I had an emotional romantic relationship with a watch. LMFAO. Sounds more than kinky............To each his own.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

Right. So he knows just enough to be a danger to himself and others. His affiliation with richemont doesn't help his credibility either. That and no one has heard of him.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

Heljestrand said:


> YouTube expert. Might even be on Intagram and Facebook as well. But definitely an expert.
> 
> Any resemblance to "Its time to make the donuts" guy is purely coincidence.
> 
> He is a horological expert and he has friends over to his co-op and they talk watches and sometimes wear watches on both wrists. They talk watches. Women are never seen in their presence.....just watches.


LMAO!!! Every time I see him I think the same thing!!!!


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## tiki5698 (Jul 6, 2016)

I'm waiting for the follow up video where he announces he's made a mistake and GS are actually worth buying.

recall Archieluxury vid


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## jdawson (Apr 15, 2015)

Watches are a very personal choice, and I don't need others telling me what to wear or like (although I will take a look at watches that many other people like, as a group). I don't follow any youtube personalities, and I don't plan on starting.


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## L84AD8 (Apr 15, 2016)

theEntreriCode said:


> So the guy doesn't understand Spring Drive or Grand Seiko History. He very clearly states that he doesn't feel an emotional connect with GS (presumably because of their philosophy of letting the product market itself) and doesn't want to buy one. It's fine....people like that won't get GS and that's part of the charm of the watch in any case.


Totally agree! I can't stand watching his channel (even before this episode).
The charm is a big reason why I've purchased 6 GS' since July last year, I buy what I like and choose what I wear, I don't need others to approve my decision or "notice" my shiny watch.. when people do.. "it's _just_ a seiko" ;-)


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## paszto (Dec 6, 2016)

He fairly admits the quality of Grand Seiko, emotion is a subjective thing.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

I want to know why Federico looks like the pillsbury doughboy.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Ive seen a few of his videos, hes a big time dribbler, ''a watch has no soul without a mainspring' another one of these dopes who thinks his watches have little souls.
And he failed to mention the great story of Seiko of a company.
Archie Luxury has more cred than this bloke and is a lot more entertaining.


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## Keaman (Jul 13, 2010)

I've been watching select vids of Fed's since about 15000 subscribers ago. In general, I like most of what he says in his video's. I do however scratch my head when I hear some of silly things he says, and some mistakes. But then even the great Tim Mosso (clearly an incredibly knowledgeable WIS) makes some equally silly mistakes, like making a whole video on an IWC Mark XV repeatedly calling it a 36mm watch. But yeah - back on topic - I was happy enough with how Fed spoke about GS in the vid. He does give them cred, and includes a disclaimer by saying "I personally wouldn't buy one *at the moment*", and also makes it clear that GS watches just don't speak to him. Fair enough I reckon.
Anyway, I left a comment telling him he'd come around soon enough :-d


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## tacotom (Jan 6, 2015)

I think the name calling, and hurtful comments are kind of crossing the line here. He's a guy like you or I, that makes some youtube videos and doesnt deserve to be put down like this. At the end of the day, like others mentioned, I am disappointed with his conclusion. Not because he is an industry expert or some "taste-maker", but because i get excited when people can share my enthusiasm in something. There have been countless discussions all over the forums on topics like this, and it feels very similar to those who wonder why anyone would by anything but Rolex (or those who would buy anything BUT a Rolex). Prejudice against a name is silly and only ostracizes yourself from enjoying a wider world of options. 

That being said, there are plenty of valid reasons for choosing to not purchase a GS. They are generally more conservative and maybe the stylingdoesn't speak to you. Had Federico listed these reasons for not wanting to purchase, i dont think anyone would object, as we all know taste is subjective, and thank goodness or we would all be wearing the same watch. Again, i think the main frustration here, is the "its just a seiko" is a fairly novice statement that seems contrary to his level of knowledge.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

Very well said, and a good place to conclude this and move on I would have thought.


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## Lunar Watch Club (Dec 7, 2014)

paszto said:


> He fairly admits the quality of Grand Seiko, emotion is a subjective thing.


@tacotom said it so masterfully, I'm redacting my reply.

Admins please close the thread.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

tacotom said:


> I think the name calling, and hurtful comments are kind of crossing the line here. He's a guy like you or I, that makes some youtube videos and doesnt deserve to be put down like this. At the end of the day, like others mentioned, I am disappointed with his conclusion. Not because he is an industry expert or some "taste-maker", but because i get excited when people can share my enthusiasm in something. There have been countless discussions all over the forums on topics like this, and it feels very similar to those who wonder why anyone would by anything but Rolex (or those who would buy anything BUT a Rolex). Prejudice against a name is silly and only ostracizes yourself from enjoying a wider world of options.
> 
> That being said, there are plenty of valid reasons for choosing to not purchase a GS. They are generally more conservative and maybe the stylingdoesn't speak to you. Had Federico listed these reasons for not wanting to purchase, i dont think anyone would object, as we all know taste is subjective, and thank goodness or we would all be wearing the same watch. Again, i think the main frustration here, is the "its just a seiko" is a fairly novice statement that seems contrary to his level of knowledge.


 if a person wants to put themselves in the public eye then they open themselves up for ridicule and criticism. That's a general rule. If the pillsbury doughboy cannot handle it then he should pull his youtube channel.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

eblackmo, I agree with you about putting yourself out there and having to expect folks to take shots at you.

But that doesn't mean our forum has to aim low. I'd rather participate in a forum that strives to be respectful and collegial than one which tolerates or encourages nastiness. 

Since this is a forum about perhaps the most Japanese of watch brands, I think we should try to post with Japanese courtesy and respect. We can disagree with Federico, but why not do it politely?


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

whineboy said:


> eblackmo, I agree with you about putting yourself out there and having to expect folks to take shots at you.
> 
> *But that doesn't mean our forum has to aim low*. I'd rather participate in a forum that strives to be respectful and collegial than one which tolerates or encourages nastiness.
> 
> Since this is a forum about perhaps the most Japanese of watch brands, I think we should try to post with Japanese courtesy and respect. We can disagree with Federico, but why not do it politely?


But....aiming low is what I do. Mainly because I find it funny. I don't disagree with the guy. I don't know him. Therefore I don't care about his opinion one way or the other. I have actually seen one of his other vids about the potential unreliability of new inhouse movements and what he was saying actually happens the same way in a lot of other industries. I wasn't impressed. I still think he looks like the pillsbury doghboy though. Others may disagree but that's not my problem. 

Just remember all publicity is good publicity.


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## RMA (Oct 16, 2013)

I don't much personally care what anyone thinks when I take the plunge in buying something especially the GS brand. I am on my 6th or 7th GS & absolutely love them. And these are not as common as the Rolex, Breitling that you typically seen around these parts. I usually get asked if it is a Rolex initially due to the exquisite shine these watches tend to give thanks to the Zaratsu finish and sport style bracelet.


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## Lunar Watch Club (Dec 7, 2014)

RMA said:


> I don't much personally care what anyone thinks when I take the plunge in buying something especially the GS brand. I am on my 6th or 7th GS & absolutely love them. And these are not as common as the Rolex, Breitling that you typically seen around these parts. I usually get asked if it is a Rolex initially due to the exquisite shine these watches tend to give thanks to the Zaratsu finish and sport style bracelet.


I'm amazed that they're making these watches by hand and charging so little for them, not that I'm complaining  German or Swiss would charge $20K+ for the same!


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## Heljestrand (Oct 26, 2014)

I will amend my earlier ironic and smarmy comment to say that anyone with an iPhone and an internet connection can become an expert. In business we call this the barrier to entry into a field of endeavor. In this case the bar is set very low.


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## fungalicon (Aug 23, 2016)

Let's separate his commentary from his physical appearance and social stature. They are mutually exclusive.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

Heljestrand said:


> I will amend my earlier ironic and smarmy comment to say that anyone with an iPhone and an internet connection can become an expert. In business we call this the barrier to entry into a field of endeavor. In this case the bar is set very low.


We used to say "on the Internet, no-one knows you are a dog" 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you're_a_dog


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## paskinner (Dec 27, 2015)

What disappointed me was his lack of respect for the Japanese horological tradition. He implied that only European watche's had 'soul', which is just silly. He seems a genial guy, but he could do better than that......although I rather enjoy the 'under the radar' aspect of the brand, after all, Seiko is one of the very greatest watch makers. Where is the shame in that.....


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## horolicious (May 31, 2015)

Hey Mr. Meatball, here is an emotional story for you. 
Mr. Hattori founder of Seiko, gave a new watch to each customer, because their watches were burned in a Seiko factory fire. 
Swiss stopped doing observatory - chronometer competitions because Seiko kicked ass. 
Seiko is still managed by the same family. 
Finally, despite suffering economical and psychological downfall after WWII, Seiko innovated and pushed boundaries of chronometry. 

More 📷 of ⌚ on Insta📨


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

I dont see what the fuss is about. You all want to pay 4k for a 200 dollar watch thats up to you.


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## JK919 (Nov 22, 2016)

It should be some sort of rite of passage to have someone talk down your GS as "just a seiko".


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## Heljestrand (Oct 26, 2014)

fungalicon said:


> Let's separate his commentary from his physical appearance and social stature. They are mutually exclusive.


In the spirit of social justice I hereby rescind my comment that Mr. Federico bears a slight resemblance to the "Time to make the donuts" guy. (who by the way is a well thought of iconic advertising figure).

Striving for inclusiveness and diversity always.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Crate410 said:


> I dont see what the fuss is about. You all want to pay 4k for a 200 dollar watch thats up to you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Plenty of rolex owners who have both freely state the GS has a finer finish, you might be mistaken on these GS, i can assure you they are better than $200 watches.


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## Lunar Watch Club (Dec 7, 2014)

Cobia said:


> Plenty of rolex owners who have both freely state the GS has a finer finish, you might be mistaken on these GS, i can assure you they are better than $200 watches.


Don't feed the trolls


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## psbero (Sep 26, 2014)

Federico is entitled to his own opinion. He admitted that they are extremely well made and that he has a lot of respect for them, but that they just don't sing to him. No problem with that - he was respectful and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## rrchmnn (Feb 9, 2013)

Uhhh - seems like a lot of drama over preference. GS are fantastic. And, while I can see someone's reluctance at purchasing a GS I guess my question is what do you want your watch to convey? GS isn't as well recognized as many other watches competing in that space - hell, even some other watches that compete at a lower level are probably more highly regarded by some as a result of their name recognition. They're great (so is Seiko's Credor line!)


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

VicLeChic said:


> He's saying he has no emotional and romantic connection with the brand, big enough to justify spending thousands on a piece. He's a fan of Seiko but clearly not GS and its hybrid springdrive movement. Why is it disappointing? It's his opinion.
> 
> Plenty of people in the watch community would agree, as per the many threads on this topic out there.
> 
> Edit: I find his videos very informative


I really wonder how differently people would think about Spring Drive if Rolex had developed the movement instead of Seiko.


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## VicLeChic (Jul 24, 2013)

appleb said:


> I really wonder how differently people would think about Spring Drive if Rolex had developed the movement instead of Seiko.


Probably the same level of excitment as with a Rolex quartz.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

skyWalker said:


> "A watch doesn't have a soul if it doesn't have a mainspring....." <-- SD does has a mainspring, that's why it's called "Spring" Drive, I'm not sure if he knows SD enough.


Exactly

Plus he's saying a Chinese auto is better than an AP/Patek quartz?

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## Prince Escalus (Jan 14, 2017)

He's entitled to his opinion, as we are... I don't think that he's in some way deficient in his faculties.. He just doesn't like Grand Seikos, I'm not a huge fan of Rolex however, the impact Rolex has had on the Swiss industry and what they have achieved through marketing the brand is nothing short of amazing, still I would sooner own a Tudor (that Pelagos LHD is so nice!)

It's not for me to take someones difference of opinion to be of personal offence to me, on that level, live and let live...

We all love our watches and we all buy/invest and project value on the things we love and get joy out of right? 

That has nothing to do with body type, race, ethnic group and so those things should never come into play in a discussion about watches, really.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

I still think a few are missing the point - of course everybody is entitled to their opinion. In this instance though Federico said he actually liked the watches, but would never buy one because they're "just a Seiko". If he'd just said "I don't like them" or "They do nothing for me" or "The design is bland", whatever, fair enough. As it is he's no better than ignorant trolls like Crate410 above.


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## Prince Escalus (Jan 14, 2017)

What ever we buy can be whittled down to its core function if that's the way we can justify to invest I it or not.. gold is just a metal, diamonds are a form of highly pressurised carbon, a Ferrari is just a car.... a $10,000 watch, is for all intents and purposes just a watch and if that's the way he's justified his decision, that's on him...


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## bigclive2011 (Mar 17, 2013)

Does anyone ever listen to these people??

Archie always tells me my watches are all .... "F____s" but his white gold Patek is the best, or whatever else he is trying to sell that day!!

Opinions are opinions, a personal thing whether you have a you tube watch channel or not.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

bigclive2011 said:


> Does anyone ever listen to these people??
> 
> Archie always tells me my watches are all .... "F____s" but his white gold Patek is the best, or whatever else he is trying to sell that day!!
> 
> Opinions are opinions, a personal thing whether you have a you tube watch channel or not.


He has nearly 20000 subscribers...


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

VicLeChic said:


> Probably the same level of excitment as with a Rolex quartz.


No, I do not believe that. If Rolex had developed the spring drive, the Rolex community would be all over it and Rolex would be praised with high accolades for being the frontrunners of innovation. Imagine how much Rolex could/would charge for the privilege of owning a swiss made smooth sweeping spring drive if it were exclusive to Rolex.

But as Frederico put it, right now the movement is in a watch that is "just a Seiko".

Essentially saying since it is not Swiss, it is not good enough.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

AndyGarton said:


> He has nearly 20000 subscribers...


Andy so do guys who like to light their own farts and drink their own scrotum sweat after running on a treadmil, 20k youtube subsrcibers is nothing to write home about these days.


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## BlueIn2Red (Aug 14, 2015)

Cobia said:


> Andy so do guys who like to light their own farts and drink their own scrotum sweat after running on a treadmil, 20k youtube subsrcibers is nothing to write home about these days.


True 

Although in the "watch community", I'd argue it is. I think it's a shame that keen watch people (the only type that would follow Federico really) might miss out on some GS joy as a result of nonsense like this!


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## chillwill120 (Apr 18, 2014)

First of all, regardless of whether you agree with him, these comments making fun of his appearance are childish and uncalled for. Second, although he wouldn't buy one, he admits that this is partially because he has fallen for the marketing of the Swiss brands. Also, he recognizes that they are quality watches but they are just not for him at the moment. I think he showed a bit of ignorance saying they are "just a Seiko" and that it doesn't have a romantic history. But that doesn't justify the nasty comments.


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## frankcastle914 (Dec 3, 2016)

I like all the passion around this thread. What do you think would happen if I go over to the Omega forum and suggest that a Speedmaster is "just a Swatch"? Wouldn't everyone call me ignorant? Not saying they aren't great watches, but Swatches "don't do anything for me" (in truth they do, I'm just stirring the pot).

Anyway, I'm glad that all the GS owners are coming out in defence of the brand. Makes me want one more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

By seeking out the limelight know as social media, Federico chose to expose himself to criticism. Had he researched the subject properly before posting his review, or said something in the lines of "I personally don't care for the brand" or "as I'm unfamiliar with the brand, I'm unable to give an educated opinion", I would have respected his opinion. Instead he chose to give a pisspoor opinion based on ignorance and emotions. My criticism of his persona is no different than what he literally did in his review of the brand. I'm am very well aware it's immature behavior of me and that I have lowered myself by doing so, but as the saying goes. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Not everyone deserves the proverbial other cheek.


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

AndyGarton said:


> As it is he's no better than ignorant trolls like Crate410 above.


Very high horse you are on there.

Your comment is a bit hurtful but its ok. Just wanted to know how I am ignorant.

If you had said arrogant I would have let it slide kind if just cause arrogant is the way the mentally deficient see opinionated people.

But ignorant? How so? I know exactly what a GS is and what their movements are and have handled them countless times.

Still not paying 4K for a seiko exactly in the same way how im not paying 90k for a lexus (but gladly paid that for an Audi)

If rolex made a SD would I buy it? Maybe. Why? Its a rolex. It is that simple. A rolex is worth 6k. A seiko is not.

An audi is worth 90k, a lexus is not.

An iphone is worth 700 bucks, a hawawei (spelling?) is not.

Join the real world sir. Your geek bubble isnt reality.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

I remain convinced that people participate in these threads largely to compare whose peacock tail has the brightest plumage. 

Regards,
Alysandir


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## horolicious (May 31, 2015)

Crate410 said:


> Very high horse you are on there.
> 
> Your comment is a bit hurtful but its ok. Just wanted to know how I am ignorant.
> 
> ...


I have owned Audio A8, Lexus GS350, Volvo V70R wagon. I can tell you that Japanese cars are cheaper to maintain and repair.

I currently own a Mercedes - another needy car, so I am going back to Lexus.

So, a long lasting mechanical watch must be reliable and enjoyed. There are only to brands who can do that Rolex and Seiko. Seiko will cost you less to maintain. .

More ? of ⌚ on Insta?


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> I remain convinced that people participate in these threads largely to compare whose peacock tail has the brightest plumage.
> 
> Regards,
> Alysandir


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Peacocks are really glorious looking birds aren't they though?


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Huh, well I actually just watched what he had to say and other than an opinion that I don't necessarily agree with, I don't feel a problem. All he did was share his personal opinion based on mostly his personal feelings. He did not try to discredit the actual quality of the product and claim they're objectively inferior. He just shared how he personally feels... Just like how one might feel any particular brands' watch designs don't appeal to them personally.

And while I love my spring drive, I don't disagree with the opinion of something lost (ie "soul" whatever that may mean to you) without a hairspring and the necessary fine mechanical adjustment as opposed to something quartz regulated. I do think something is gained as well, and every serious collector (with the means to comfortably afford it) SHOULD have a spring drive... That is my opinion. But most of my watches are full mechanical and I'm not driven to own multiple spring drives the same way I am to multiple full mechanicals. Well perhaps I'm not driven to multiple of any particular movement.

I do find it a bit silly when he says maybe he'd get a Credor, but not GS (right now). Because what romantic history does Credor have over Grand Seiko? The two Credors I have are awesome, but they aren't better than my GSes if based on over all quality of movement or price.... They aren't better watches, although Credor reaches to much higher end in other models. Obviously marketing and branding really does play a huge part to this frederico youtuber, and he does basically admit to such, so no big deal. But he spends primary time in his argument talking about romantic quality and history, and Credor doesn't match Grand Seiko there.

I have always kind of wondered though, why Seiko didn't seek to globalize their Credor brand rather than Grand Seiko. Grand Seiko is great, but Credor is definitely a more marketable name. And you're never going to hide that Credor is made by Seiko, so they'd still be effectively promoting the Seiko presence in the luxury market. Maybe it would have been too much of an concession that the name "Seiko" can't hold it's own in the luxury sector. Clearly though it can, based on the growing recognition and nods GS is getting and continues to gain. It's just still an uphill battle with those who continue to have the same or similar feelings and personal opinion as those he expressed in that video. That opinion may never go away completely, but no question those holding it are becoming less and less.


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

bluedialer said:


> Peacocks are really glorious looking birds aren't they though?


They taste good too (long story)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Cobia said:


> View attachment 10567746


This really should - somehow, some way - become the official logo for WUS. Two peacocks duking it out. Perfect.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Crate410 said:


> They taste good too (long story)


I don't doubt that though!


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> This really should - somehow, some way - become the official logo for WUS. Two peacocks duking it out. Perfect.
> 
> Regards,
> Alysandir


Only because of your post i googled 'peacocks fighting' as i remember seeing a pair or males fighting at the zoo when i was a kid, you sparked my memory, wow man, do yourself a favour if you already havnt and google it, stunning pictures and the forms they make in the air is amazing, truely beautiful and i love your idea about it being the WUS logo haha, couldnt think of anything more fitting, great thinking bro.


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## Cobia (Nov 24, 2013)




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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

bluedialer said:


> I have always kind of wondered though, why Seiko didn't seek to globalize their Credor brand rather than Grand Seiko. Grand Seiko is great, but Credor is definitely a more marketable name. And you're never going to hide that Credor is made by Seiko, so they'd still be effectively promoting the Seiko presence in the luxury market. Maybe it would have been too much of an concession that the name "Seiko" can't hold it's own in the luxury sector. Clearly though it can, based on the growing recognition and nods GS is getting and continues to gain. It's just still an uphill battle with those who continue to have the same or similar feelings and personal opinion as those he expressed in that video. That opinion may never go away completely, but no question those holding it are becoming less and less.


I too found it odd that he referenced Credor, but my gut instinct says he's actually never handled any of the current models, and I'm even doubtful that he's properly looked at Grand Seiko.

Anyway, with regards to the fact Seiko chose GS rather than Credor to go into export markets was probably down to a few reasons:

1) They'd been aware of the Grand Seikos already produced prior to 2011 that were being bought by consumers in the West (new and pre-owned).
2) The Credor brand was named purposefully for the home market.
3) Credor was created to appeal to the luxury segment, using precious metals and jewels. That has somewhat been diluted with the addition of steel cased pieces - but I suspect this was as a result of realising that Patek, AP, and VC, could all charge a premium for such a basic material.
4) Probably the most salient point - Seiko is fiercely proud of its name, and therefore didn't feel they should appease Westerners like Honda and Toyota has done...but there, the sums of money involved is of a much greater magnitude. The bulk of Seiko's profits comes from the volume segment, not the likes of GS, Galante, Credor, Astron.
5) Grand Seiko extends further back in the company's history, and has had one overriding philosophy - to tell the time in the clearest manner possible. It is for this reason we don't see sub-dial seconds on a basic 3-hander, nor moonphase, big date, and annual/full calendar complications - as much as we'd like to see them do so.
6) Seiko knows Grand Seiko isn't for everyone. They are not ever planning to mass produce them like Omega, Rolex, Breitling, TAG Heuer, IWC - they are for the cognoscenti/connoisseur buyer - which is why there will be no real marketing campaigns, and why there aren't any Grand Seiko "Ambassadors", like Djokovic is for the Astron line.

Without harking back to the subject of this thread, but until people like him full appreciate and grasp the above (assuming of course that it is wholly accurate and reflective of Seiko's view and [perceived lack of] strategy), then Grand Seiko will always be a circle needing squared.
For those who've managed to already square it, they get to enjoy a superbly produced timepiece - which is the only thing that truly matters!


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## Meyer09 (Jul 5, 2014)

Come on guys, all he said was he didn't feel any romantic connection when he thinks of GS. He didn't trash talk about the quality or design of it. Why all the hate? I'm sure every person on this forum dislikes certain brands that are generally respected.


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## Rakumi (Nov 11, 2015)

I truly do not knock him on his opinion because there have been several others who feel the same. I can see him knowledge on Seiko is limited, but still the same underlining point is there. Many people who work hard and buy an expensive watch sometimes also want the comfort that their watch is highly known and respected. Most people that own a GS already own a high end swiss brand so it quenches that desire to say they own such a piece. Only a few true die hard Seiko fans own the best Seiko has to offer while not owning a high end swiss piece. I am a huge fan of Seiko and even I would have a hard time if I could only have one 5k+ watch and decided to make it between Seiko and another top swiss brand.


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## Rakumi (Nov 11, 2015)

This right here pretty much ends the discussion. It is simply perception. Some people perceive things differently than others. It is this very reason why such companies make different names for their premium products, because they know the standard name brands have a "basic" aspect connected with the names and not a "premium" connection. In Japan, they see Honda and Acura the same. In America, the NSX needed to be connected to Acura to sell better.



davelemi said:


> "Just a Seiko" is valid. People over here dump on Lexus as "just a Toyota" and Acura as "just a Honda". Some people understand the differences and some don't.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

chillwill120 said:


> First of all, regardless of whether you agree with him, *these comments making fun of his appearance are childish and uncalled for*. Second, although he wouldn't buy one, he admits that this is partially because he has fallen for the marketing of the Swiss brands. Also, he recognizes that they are quality watches but they are just not for him at the moment. I think he showed a bit of ignorance saying they are "just a Seiko" and that it doesn't have a romantic history. But that doesn't justify the nasty comments.


It's not my fault the guy looks like the pillsbury doughboy. Or that I get a mental image of federico spotting a dwarf in public and shouting "Get in my belly!". Seriously though who gives a rats arse? These types of threads are one of the things I love about WUS especially other members pontificating about how they think others should behave. No one cares about your opinion either. I may also be here for the watches. Maybe.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

Crate410 said:


> Very high horse you are on there.
> 
> Your comment is a bit hurtful but its ok. Just wanted to know how I am ignorant.
> 
> ...


They probably get cranked out of the same factory though.


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## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

I think the points others make about bias are good since it is our money to spend. It's no secret I only like sport watches so I already have that as a bias. I will not buy a precious metal watch since they do not hold value equal to the added cost so I have that as a bias. Because of my bias I look,but only briefly at PP, ALS, AP ... and will never buy them. I find 60% of the GS collection quite bland since they are not sport watches. This makes it equal to most other mid level brands like Rolex and Omega in that perspective. I think the Seiko comment in the video is quite fair. Let us keep in mind this was a JDM only brand up until the event of online shopping. Seiko perception there is quite different than in other parts of world. In Japan Grand Seiko is not an oxymoron, like it is in other parts. Because of this the watch would probably be better served in the rest of the world by just being branded Grand without the Seiko. Although just calling it a G might confuse it with a G-Shock. Look even in the Seiko community there are those that don't want anything to do with a Seiko that costs over $600 so there is even bias within the brands legions. How many hundred debates have you seen or even participated in about whether SD is quartz or Mechanical. How can we fault outside bias when it is rampant within the brand loyalist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

T1meout:
Exactly. Who the .... is Federico?
I and my pal Jimmy (who BTW owns a GS) think Fed has lost his marbles.
His videos will get zero attention from us from now on. SBGE01 is my Grail.

X Traindriver Art


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Rakumi said:


> I truly do not knock him on his opinion because there have been several others who feel the same. I can see him knowledge on Seiko is limited, but still the same underlining point is there. Many people who work hard and buy an expensive watch sometimes also want the comfort that their watch is highly known and respected. Most people that own a GS already own a high end swiss brand so it quenches that desire to say they own such a piece. Only a few true die hard Seiko fans own the best Seiko has to offer while not owning a high end swiss piece. I am a huge fan of Seiko and even I would have a hard time if I could only have one 5k+ watch and decided to make it between Seiko and another top swiss brand.


True, my two GS and two Credor make Seiko rather dominant in my "good watch" collection, and I can very much see acquiring another GS (although it would have to be quite special... or come cheap!). But I also highly appreciate my Omega and Zenith (and now currently looking hard at JLC), and would have a definite longing for a quality "in-house manufacture" Swiss piece without them. And the Omega (although sought and bought before really knowing about GS) was my first really nice piece so it continues to hold a special place. That said, my most valued and indispensable piece very easily has to be my SBGJ005.

By my collection, for sure I can say that I easily choose GS (among others) over a Rolex. But it isn't as easy to say definitely Japanese over Swiss, nor Swiss over Japanese. It's a slightly more complex question if you could only get that one watch. But one watch is a sort of blasphemy


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## paskinner (Dec 27, 2015)

Recently I have been closely comparing my GS watches to similarly priced offerings from the likes of Rolex, Omega, IWC and Zenith. Each company stays in business by offering attractive watches, but the GS models are quite simply better finished. They look and feel superior. To me, anyway.
I don't honestly care what Frederico thinks, I try to judge for myself. As best I can.


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## eljay (Feb 22, 2016)

Crate410 said:


> It is that simple. A rolex is worth 6k. A seiko is not.
> 
> An audi is worth 90k, a lexus is not.


Would you mind explaining why? It shouldn't be too difficult, after all, it's that simple.


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

eljay said:


> Would you mind explaining why? It shouldn't be too difficult, after all, it's that simple.


The fact that you need an explanation means two things:

1. You dont live in reality.
2. All the koolaid you GC (same as GS no? Yes) boys drink is really taking a toll.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eljay (Feb 22, 2016)

Crate410 said:


> The fact that you need an explanation means two things:
> 
> 1. You dont live in reality.
> 2. All the koolaid you GC (same as GS no? Yes) boys drink is really taking a toll.


Classy :roll:


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Guys, your run-ins are tiring. You (all) better stop.
If someone needs a break, let me know.


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## arogle1stus (May 23, 2013)

If I wanted to hear arguing who's got the best, fastest or best appearing horse I could go down to the local
horse sale. Ditto who has the best watch.
Call it a truce if you will!!! Those that like hi end Swiss watches or those who like Seiko GS go to yer neutral
corners. IMO and sufficeth to say, there's a big watch world and room for all kinds of watches. Finito!!!

X Traindriver Art


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Take my observations however pleases you, but as someone who owns a Grand Seiko and a couple Rolex, I really don't get what all the venom is about.

For starters, I have to say that I believe the finishing is a dead heat; both brands pass the loupe test. Winding feel is also a dead heat, for people who care about that. Accuracy, the GS is actually more accurate in my observation, but that's a spring drive vs. mechanical comparison and not truly a fair one, but still notable IMHO. Bracelets, the GS is finished better, but the Rolex bracelets are more feature-laden and feel more substantial/well-made; this is one area that I feel GS really needs to work to catch up on. From an aesthetic standpoint, I feel that GS tend to be more dressy and Rolex more sporty, so it's tough to do a straight head-to-head comparison between most models (although I will observe that I find most of GS LE chronographs to be downright silly in design).

So while I might still give the nod to Rolex for its cachet and proven durability over time, I don't think it's unreasonable to talk about Rolex and Grand Seiko in the same breath when it comes to quality and attention to detail. Anyone who calls a Grand Seiko an overpriced $200 watch really is doing themselves a disservice by not handling one in the metal.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## JoeKirk (Nov 29, 2009)

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, this thread is becoming a little out of hand as far as behavior is concerned.

I would like this forum to remain respectful and for everyone to get along as best they can, despite what others opinions are. There are certainly a lot of people who do not understand or have not done their research in regards to Grand Seiko. There are also a lot of people who truly enjoy it. Do not bash others for liking a brand, no matter what the brand is. If you do not care for Grand Seiko, this is not the forum for you.

Frederico is also entitled to his opinion, but based on the video, does not realize that GS has various movement types. There is indeed a lack of information and research on his part. Either way, he is entitled to think what he wants. The only important thing is that YOU like what YOU like, despite others opinions. I, personally, don't need others consent or approval to buy, wear or like a watch. I don't need name brand or to make a statement. What matters to me is the overall quality and that I enjoy it. I could care less about others opinions and I would hope others think this way.

If this thread continues on this path I will be removing it completely. I truly appreciate your cooperation in making the GS Forum an interesting, informative and fun place for fellow WIS.


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## Rakumi (Nov 11, 2015)

I am totally on the same page because if I could justify another expensive watch, I would love a GS and their designs have elements that I would love in mh dream watch. But I am one of those guys who can only have 1 expensive watch and so it had to be the watch I lusted over for years as well as one I would feel symbolized my hard work and was recognized by others (this is not always important to others). But at least you get what I mean when I say many GS owners already have their Swiss itch scratched already so it is easier for them.



bluedialer said:


> True, my two GS and two Credor make Seiko rather dominant in my "good watch" collection, and I can very much see acquiring another GS (although it would have to be quite special... or come cheap!). But I also highly appreciate my Omega and Zenith (and now currently looking hard at JLC), and would have a definite longing for a quality "in-house manufacture" Swiss piece without them. And the Omega (although sought and bought before really knowing about GS) was my first really nice piece so it continues to hold a special place. That said, my most valued and indispensable piece very easily has to be my SBGJ005.
> 
> By my collection, for sure I can say that I easily choose GS (among others) over a Rolex. But it isn't as easy to say definitely Japanese over Swiss, nor Swiss over Japanese. It's a slightly more complex question if you could only get that one watch. But one watch is a sort of blasphemy


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## adnjoo (Dec 7, 2015)

I used to have a Spring Drive Seiko Diver. I really didn't like it (the Spring Drive part, the looks were great though: blue/yellow accent). Looking at Grand Seiko (GS), I think it's OK to aspire to GS if you're price limit is $5k but beyond that when you can purchase $8k++ watches, GS is just . . . too functional?

How to fix GS

NO QUARTZ
1) Take quartz out AND spring drive.

I agree with Mr. F; the heart and soul of the watch must be mechanical; any electric circuit, even hybrid just turns the 'living machine' into a computer that functionally exceeds to spit out computations of time but demeans the watch's purpose to just time-keeper when it has potential to be much more than that (i.e. emotions and storytelling etc.).

BETTER DESIGN
2) Movement Finishing is too plain. Linear stripes, undecorated gears, grey everywhere. I mean come on. Please Japanese watchmakers let your imagination fly- I imagine this has something to do with the overtly polite business culture and the concept of wa (social harmony) in Japan possibly leading to communistic design cues and uninspired creations taking over majority of design-talk at Seiko hq.

MORE SPORTS MODELS
3) Please make more sports models and do not take design cues from lower level Seikos. Basically GS just has a Datejust-ish equivalent, some Times-Square busy === ugly chronographs, Snowflake (promising), and a too speckled Diver.

Where is the , emotion and risk put into the watches? Soul can come only from risk, dreams; not just taking design cues from other brands and then adapting it with 'higher functionality and more spring drives'.

---

On the other hand I think Japanese watchmaking has hope + potential: Credor, Asaoka Hajime, that Samurai Limited Ed. (COOL AF) G-Shock Hammertone. Holy effin cool. And we would all love to see Japan beat the Swiss (who rape (our) consumers' wallets). But it really has to come to more risk, more LOVE  put into the watches. As the venerable Black Eyed Peas say ' Where is the ?'

*phew.. as an aside, --> Credor Minute Repeater. ))


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

@adnjoo
GS have enough to offer for all tastes. I agree with you about adding new models and expanding their lineup, but it's not like they haven't been doing so. On the other hand how about just letting the Quartz and springdrive be. Just because you disapprove of them doesn't mean others do to. If there wasn't a market for them, they wouldn't sell. You know, different strokes for different folks, live and let live and all that.


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## Themeltingclock (Apr 23, 2013)

GS has (and will continue to have) a brand association problem. Same reason why someone might look at a Toyota Land Cruiser and ask how in the world Toyota thinks they can get away with an $84k MSRP. Few who have the money to splash out on such a vehicle are going to seriously look at Toyota - they'll want something German. 

Grand Seiko is the same way. Most people with the cash for a GS are going to be look at entry-level lux watches from Swiss manufacturers. 

Personally? I'd take a GS on steep discount - I appreciate their understated-ness. But at full MSRP? Sorry, that's a tough sell.


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## stilren (Jan 25, 2015)

I have enjoyed some of his videos, hes got interesting opinions and experience in collecting and working in sales in the industry. I personally have a completely different opinion about Seiko, I love Love Seiko and think Grand Seiko is up there with the best. But feeling disappointment because somebody draws a different conclusion to me is ultimately a drag on myself. Frederico is a Swiss snob, on one hand he spells out how much he appreciates, admires and respects Grand Seiko, but on the other he cant get past the stigma of the branding. His loss.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

The only issue I see with GS is the lack of significant design/look variety. Some will call it a strong point but to me it just holds me back getting another one. My sbgm027 is on the more sporty side of them all in my book










I just wish they would branch out and I am not talking about the new ginormous ceramic models.
Having just come back from Japan the design do make sense. Everyone wears the same suit acts in the same way so it is very much in line w what I could glean from the Japanese culture. Clean, ordered, processed but may be too much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dan83bz (Jul 6, 2008)

Hmm...This Federico dude seems rather ****ty to me. Bit like another large individual who likes to blab about watches.


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## Chris23 (Feb 6, 2017)

Well I find Fed genial, entertaining, somewhat self-effacing and most certainly knowledgeable. I enjoy his videos and his style. I watched the video in question and found it slightly surprising but I understood his position. It would not stop me buying a GS, however. I'd never buy a Rolex though, but thats a different story, perhaps for a different thread.


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## riposte (Nov 6, 2015)

adnjoo said:


> NO QUARTZ
> 1) Take quartz out AND spring drive.
> 
> I agree with Mr. F; the heart and soul of the watch must be mechanical; any electric circuit, even hybrid just turns the 'living machine' into a computer that functionally exceeds to spit out computations of time but demeans the watch's purpose to just time-keeper when it has potential to be much more than that (i.e. emotions and storytelling etc.).
> ...


1. IMO, it's impossible, because I think Seiko are really proud with their achievement of 1st commercially quartz watch and their capabilities to producing every types of movement, while respecting vintage Grand Quartz - King Quartz line up, and Grand Seiko quartz produced since 1972
(And I disagree about soul and heart of watches. Watches don't have soul just like us, they can't breathe  )
2. Agree, bit color can be added to the movement (blue screws), while make the movement thinner than before
3. Don't know. I think GS SD diver design are taken from their 1st diver watch (or current Marinemaster, it's not low-end), except quartz diver. SD chronograph has potential, but the pusher is ugly (it's better if using lower profile pusher)

Credor can be a real luxury brand. Minute repeater, tourbillon (maybe gyrotourbillon too (based on latest Seiko's patent)), is not enough. Add more complication please


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## Cybotron (Dec 7, 2006)

psbero said:


> Federico is entitled to his own opinion. He admitted that they are extremely well made and that he has a lot of respect for them, but that they just don't sing to him. No problem with that - he was respectful and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


I agree. That's why there's chocolate, vanilla & strawberry. We all can't like the same things.


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

Themeltingclock said:


> GS has (and will continue to have) a brand association problem. Same reason why someone might look at a Toyota Land Cruiser and ask how in the world Toyota thinks they can get away with an $84k MSRP. Few who have the money to splash out on such a vehicle are going to seriously look at Toyota - they'll want something German.
> 
> Grand Seiko is the same way. Most people with the cash for a GS are going to be look at entry-level lux watches from Swiss manufacturers.
> 
> Personally? I'd take a GS on steep discount - I appreciate their understated-ness. But at full MSRP? Sorry, that's a tough sell.


Agree 100% that there is a brand association issue, but that might be more true in aome places than others.

Your example is a good one but where I am proves the opposite. The 85K land cruisers and nissan patrols are VERY popular and often if not always top the SUV sales here. I bought one over a german car myself.

Where you live, what you do for a living, what you don on days off, how you live... it all feeds into if you would buy a GS. I for example wouldnt buy ine unless it was literally 90% off retail cause to me thats all they are worth.

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## ahdaeeeee (Dec 18, 2014)

Meh, can never please everyone. 

Watch brands now is starting to be a cult, and the people buys them are always be associated with a particular characteristics such as BMW/MBZ drivers. But Seikos will be appreciate for those who understands Japanese's pursuit of perfection.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Personally I prefer apple pie, but I get that some people are devoted to cherry. I'm just sitting here enjoying that crust like 'damn I love pie...'


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## Crate410 (Jun 14, 2011)

ahonobaka said:


> Personally I prefer apple pie, but I get that some people are devoted to cherry. I'm just sitting here enjoying that crust like 'damn I love pie...'


People who prefer cherry pie are weird. Apples and cinnamon and yummyness is where its at!

Cherry pie leaves you feeling sick. Too sugary. Plus the cherry mix often makes the pie bottom and crust less crispy than applr pie.

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## zuiko (May 17, 2016)

At 10min 18s Federico basically admits to being a paid consultant / speaker for watch brands.

He is going to speak positively and promote brands which he is paid by. He doesn't declare which brands he is currently paid by.

It's obvious that he is not paid or hired by Seiko.

In the interests of full disclosure he should in my opinion let his viewers know which brands he does get paid by as I believe that will influence his opinions.

I can virtually guarantee you Federico would change his tune if his message about Seiko or Grand Seiko became incentivised differently. Currently negative because he is paid by competitors.

Just the way humans are.


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## adashu (Jun 9, 2012)

zuiko said:


> At 10min 18s Federico basically admits to being a paid consultant / speaker for watch brands.
> 
> He is going to speak positively and promote brands which he is paid by. He doesn't declare which brands he is currently paid by.
> 
> ...


He praises the PADI and the SKX. I think in this case hes being pretty honest. He speaks highly of watch brands he is not paid by too...


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

appleb said:


> No, I do not believe that. If Rolex had developed the spring drive, the Rolex community would be all over it and Rolex would be praised with high accolades for being the frontrunners of innovation. Imagine how much Rolex could/would charge for the privilege of owning a swiss made smooth sweeping spring drive if it were exclusive to Rolex.
> 
> But as Frederico put it, right now the movement is in a watch that is "just a Seiko".
> 
> Essentially saying since it is not Swiss, it is not good enough.


Spot on I think.


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## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

appleb said:


> No, I do not believe that. If Rolex had developed the spring drive, the Rolex community would be all over it and Rolex would be praised with high accolades for being the frontrunners of innovation. Imagine how much Rolex could/would charge for the privilege of owning a swiss made smooth sweeping spring drive if it were exclusive to Rolex.
> 
> But as Frederico put it, right now the movement is in a watch that is "just a Seiko".
> 
> Essentially saying since it is not Swiss, it is not good enough.


Not a chance. Rolex does what it does and its customers, both aficionados and casual buyers, take what this mighty company offers and likes it. Decades of experience shows Rolex isn't a brand that embraces "Is it or isn't it?" ambiguity. This wouldn't be true of many watch companies, but I'd offer that Spring Drive would harm rather than enhance their reputation.


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