# What HEQ and non HEQ movements look like



## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread of photographs of HEQ movements, non HEQ movements and uncertain movements.

I'm sure this will help to facilitate the discussion.

Don't be ashamed to use movement photos that you have used before but do explain why you thing that they are what they are.

I will kick off with an undoubted HEQ: the classic Seiko 8J56










Accurate to ten seconds a year or better, the thermocompensated 8J56 has an all metal gilded body and six jewels. Found primarily in the 'Grand Seiko' range of watches the 8J laid a real challenge to the Swiss hegemony of high end horology. Retired in favour of the startlingly good 9F series movements the 8J remains a classic ebauche.


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## Bruce Reding (May 5, 2005)

Thanks, Matt. That'd be a good on for the "notable movements/watces" sticky. How did they achieve the performance is this one? Is it a dual crystal?


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## rex (Feb 12, 2006)

Here's mine. Pic courtesy of Roba. 
Had my watchmaker change the battery a few weeks ago and of all things, I FORGOT to bring my camera! Anyway, it sure looks prettier in the flesh! My watchmaker (in his early 30's) said it was the first time he laid his eyes upon a 9Fxx. He was very impressed as well!

http://www.fototime.com/%7BDABB671A-1141-408F-9346-2DC8CAA15E04%7D/picture.JPG


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Bruce Reding said:


> ...How did they achieve the performance is this one? Is it a dual crystal?


It's single crystal. 
My guess: it has a termistor and uses a form of digital inhibition for thermocompensation.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Not all HEQ have to be large, 








or even quartz!

As this very late Bulova Accutron 2302 demonstrates.

This rather rare ladies' tuning fork vibrates at a manic 480Hz, over half way to the banshee wail of the Omega 720Hz Megasonic. Despite only having a diameter of 19.4mm and a depth of 5.2mm this baby hummer sports both a date and a sweeping (at 480 steps a second) second hand. One of mine can manage around ten seconds a week on the wrist, the other *ahem* cannot.

A side note (pun intended) 480Hz was the concert pitch (A above middle C) used by JS Bach for tuning his organ.

C'mon guys, I'm not going to do this by myself...


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

On the other side of the coin there is this not so classic movement, the ISA 1198.










Retailing at a whopping $6.95 on Ofrei this testimony to Sino Swiss relations can be found in many $500+ 'fashion' watches. It's made in both China (by the *Chung Nam Group*) and also in Switzerland (same), giving it that added 'made in Switzerland' cachet.

There is an additional reason to despise this particular movement: a version of it, the 1198/42-4, is specially designed to replace the Bulova Accutron 218 movement. Thus, when you are caught out by a quartz powered 218 Frankenwatch on ebay, this is the movement that will replace the classic hummer. Frankenguts on demand; this has to be the definition of an anti HEQ movement.

As it happens I wear this movement fairly regularly as it 'powers' a Zeno homage to the Smiths W10 which I wear in situations in which I would like to wear my W10 but might damage it.

It's a stunt watch!


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## RogerE (Dec 7, 2007)

M4tt said:


> I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread of photographs of HEQ movements, non HEQ movements and uncertain movements.
> 
> I'm sure this will help to facilitate the discussion.
> 
> ...


Matt: Lord knows at my age I'm confused, but I thought that the 8F movement was TC, but not the 8J. Sorry to question your immensely greater data base! Roger.b-)


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> I thought that the 8F movement was TC, but not the 8J. Sorry to question your immensely greater data base.


Had a quick trawl of the net and it seems that there is a fair degree of confusion out there. Either _some _8J are TC or quite a few people are likely to be unimpressed with their watches!

As for mine, short of outright disassembly I cannot say for certain, however, I dug out the manual (which I'm ashamed to say I didn't read properly) and it doesn't seem to leave much room for doubt:








Sorry about the lousy picture - in a bit of a hurry.

I really cannot see how the claimed accuracy and temperature range can be squeezed out of a 32k crystal without TC.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Moving on, (and checking my armpits given the amount of response this thread is generating)

We have one of my personal favourites:









The ESA 9162.

Once again, it's a non quartz HEQ, it's another pesky tuning fork watch. This one boasts modular construction making it harder to break the whole movement in one go. More to the point, this movement is (theoretically) tunable and capable of massively exceeding the criteria for chronometer status. A well set up 9162 can even keep pace with a non TC quartz.

Humming gently at a relatively demure 300hz (between D and D sharp)the 9162 is easy on the ear ... unlike some.

The 9162 and its day date brother the 9164 are possibly the most widely used of all the tuning fork watches. Versions can be found in watches from Omega to Zenith, IWC to Certina. The Omega incarnation is particularily prized as almost all of them were formally tested as chronometers.


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## Gino (Nov 20, 2006)

Hi Guys, I couldn't resist including a few historic HEQ movements.

The first one is of course the Omega Marine Chronometer's 1516 movement, with its thirteen jewels, unique AT cut bi-convex 2.4 MHz crystal, shielded rate trimmer and 'jumping' motor.










And a close up of the 1516's motor:










The next is the movement from the Omega Chrono-Quartz of 1976, which as we know was the first combined analogue watch with a digital chronograph. It contains two separate timing and display systems each with their own integrated circuit driven from a common 32kHz crystal. This also has I believe thirteen jewels and a later form of compact stepping motor.










The next movement was contemporary with the Omega and belongs to the Heuer (long before Tag grabbed them) Chronosplit. This is the second version of this watch and has dual LCD displays. Underneath the dark plastic battery holder is a circular glass fibre gold-plated circuit board containing two separate integrated circuit chips, again driven from a single 32 kHz crystal. It is interesting to see that the integrated circuits in this watch are left un-encapsulated with their gold bond wires looking like tiny upturned spiders. I have seen this before in an early Timex LED watch and I assume that in those days it was expected that the Ics would at times be replaced during servicing.










Front view of Heuer module:










The last movement is of course not HEQ though in it's day was as good as it got for accuracy. It is of course the 218 movement from a Bulova Accutron.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

M4tt said:


> ...I really cannot see how the claimed accuracy and temperature range can be squeezed out of a 32k crystal without TC.


Clearly there is TC in this watch... but it is supplied by the wearer and not the movement. Those caveats in the instructions about wearing clearly show this.

I have some Autoquartz that will meet these accuracy levels if you meet similar "wear compensation" schemas... and they are clearly 32khz non-TC quartz.

I suspect any watch which leaves the factory with a custom but non-varying inhibition count (like the Autoquartz and maybe these Asians) tailored to that specific movement can meet these standards with similar wear-based compensation.

This is a conjecture that could probably be proved accurate or inaccurate by some careful experiments with such movements.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Eeeb said:


> Clearly there is TC in this watch... but it is supplied by the wearer and not the movement. Those caveats in the instructions about wearing clearly show this...


No, Jim, that Seiko (8J) must have proper thermocompensation. Unlike the Swiss, Japanese manufacturers always include that caveats in the instructions. Even the The Citizen (A660) and the Grand Seiko (9F) have these notes about minimal on-wrist time.
This watch (8J56) has a single 32kHz oscillator so it needs electronic thermocompensation to meet accuracy specifications of +/-10 sec/year.
The Seiko 8F movements with a single 196kHz(!) oscillator are specified for +/-20 sec/year with "body-thermocompensation" and according to reports by the owners not many can perform to the specifications (even with continuous wear).


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Eeeb said:


> ...I suspect any watch which leaves the factory with a custom but non-varying inhibition count (like the Autoquartz and maybe these Asians) tailored to that specific movement can meet these standards with similar wear-based compensation...


I think, you're just lucky with your autoquartz.
Staying within +/-10 seconds/year over the whole year (and the next year and so on...) even if the watch stays on the wrist for the whole time is an impossible task for the single 32kHz oscillator movement without electrical thermocompensation. You might run into the odd one that makes it but that is just an exception to the rule, in my opinion.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Gents, it would be really great to try to keep this thread on a 'picture and snappy description' course. If you wish to discuss the relative merits of the 8J then would you mind opening a new thread.

Mind you, what would be even better is if you contributed some more pictures of the sexy movements that I know you both own...

Cheers, 

Matt


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Gents, it would be really great to try to keep this thread on a 'picture and snappy description' course. If you wish to discuss the relative merits of the 8J then would you mind opening a new thread.
> 
> Mind you, what would be even better is if you contributed some more pictures of the sexy movements that I know you both own...
> 
> ...


Matt, I could argue that at least we were discussing HEQ subject... but what would be the point?
Enjoy the pictures !


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## Don_Wallbaum (Dec 17, 2007)

ppaulusz said:


> > The Seiko 8F movements with a single 196kHz(!) oscillator are specified for +/-20 sec/year with "body-thermocompensation" and according to reports by the owners not many can perform to the specifications (even with continuous wear).
> 
> 
> In the Seiko shop here, I have been detailing my experience with my 8F32 Seiko. It had been running +15 sec/yr. I had the battery and cryshtal replaced by COSERV, and the accuracy went out the window: +30 sec/2 mos. So I sent it back to COSERV and they did unspecified "movement repair". Just got it back a couple of days ago, so I am still evaluating. But my 8F did work well within that +- 20sec/yr. Super watch for the money.


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## dwjquest (Jul 22, 2006)

*You Want Movements - You Get Movements!*



M4tt said:


> I thought it might be a good idea to have a thread of photographs of HEQ movements, non HEQ movements and uncertain movements.
> 
> I'm sure this will help to facilitate the discussion.
> 
> Don't be ashamed to use movement photos that you have used before but do explain why you thing that they are what they are.


*Seiko Movements*

*The original Seiko quartz movement. +- 5 sec/month. 1969*










*
Seiko 9F62. Current vintage Seiko. +- 10 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 9443 Twin Quartz. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 5S42. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 8J81. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 5E61. +- 10 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 8J41. +- 10 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 8N40. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 8N41. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 9531. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 2J31. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 4J41. +- 10 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 9581. +- 10 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 9539. +- 20 sec/yr.*










*Seiko 5E31. +-20 sec/yr.*


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## roba (Feb 11, 2006)

*All this talk of 8J thermocompensation made the battery in mine go eep..*

So..









The Credor one comes witha little cover








It's now sporting a matching gold coloured Maxell battery - the watch counter in a supermarket two minutes away had one 

Definitely not thermocompensated but an interesting movement:









Some Eco Drive Campanolas have display backs - for good reason too.


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## Bruce Reding (May 5, 2005)

A lot of excellent material for our "Notable Movements" sticky. :-!


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