# Sticky  Please do not post details of AD deals...



## Eeeb

Every vendor has suggested retail prices... TAG Heuer is no different.

Many vendors feel that open discussion of discount pricing of a product diminishes the prestige of the brand. TAG Heuer is no different. 

It is considered rude behavior to advertise or imply AD's discounts, even if the notes come from satisfied customers.

WUS keeps electrons flowing through the servers by having sponsors some of whom are ADs. (We have Topper Jewelers for example.) It is considered very very very rude behavior to discuss or imply the pricing of the forum sponsors. (You may note we have cleaned up some posts in various threads that were not in this spirit...)

We thank you for your cooperation in this matter...


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## Eeeb

Note: I'm using the American definition of rude here.... I just realized folks in the UK may find this post amusing.


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## gts_2001

I wonder how many more times you're going to have to do this Eeeb? o|

:-!:-!


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## h2xmark

gts_2001 said:


> I wonder how many more times you're going to have to do this Eeeb? o|
> 
> :-!:-!


As fast as the Tag forum is growing and post counts get higher and higher I say 2 to 3 more times, so im doing my part to keep this post around the top so everyone can read it. lol


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## enricodepaoli

Thanks, Eeeb.


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## ocnman

Oops. Guess I'm one of those who made that mistake. I'm relatively new to the group and was aware that one shouldn't quote prices but didn't know that percentages were also taboo. Lesson learned. Ocnman


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## mhallman585

ocnman said:


> Oops. Guess I'm one of those who made that mistake. I'm relatively new to the group and was aware that one shouldn't quote prices but didn't know that percentages were also taboo. Lesson learned. Ocnman


I think I may have made the same mistake. Sincere apologies, definitely won't happen again.


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## dtdukok

Eeeb said:


> Note: I'm using the American definition of rude here.... I just realized folks in the UK may find this post amusing.


:-s Rude = impolite in the UK


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## enricodepaoli

Rude means rude anywhere !


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## Barrera

Fully agree!!!!
Keep up the good work


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## dkatunc

I don't mean to rock the boat, and a mod can feel free to delete my post if they feel its inappropriate or "rude," but I simply don't agree with this mindset.

I certainly understand where this is coming from, from a business perspective it's important for WUS to pander to the "customers" who buy ad space to a certain extent. However, I also think that the visitors to this site are "customers" in our own right - the reality is that the advertisers come because we, the consumers, are here; it's not the other way around, we aren't coming to see the advertisements.

As a consumer I don't appreciate this type of attitude - I don't enjoy feeling like someone is trying to fool me, take advantage of me, pull a fast one on me, etc.. I find it quite rude and insulting to feel like AD's are essentially trying to be dishonest and take advantage of their customers. 

This is essentially the same approach that car dealerships take, and I don't think that's a positive thing. There's a reason that many people hate the idea of visiting a car dealership and having to negotiate the deal because they know that the sticker price isn't the "real" price, but they aren't confident that the "real" price is a good or fair price, so the whole thing is a major headache, a pain, and a stressful experience. Do AD's want to be considered comparable to a used car salesman? Is that really the experience that TAG Heuer and TAG Heuer's AD's want to create for their customers? 

The fact of the matter is that no AD is going to sell a watch at a price that they don't find acceptable. If they aren't making money off of the deal, then they simply say "no" to the sale. Certainly they'd like to make more money on the sale, but by the same token the purchaser would like to pay less. Just like no one would expect an AD to sell at a loss, we also shouldn't expect them to sell at an inappropriate gain.

When people discuss the details of the deals they get, the purpose is not to inform others of how to take advantage of an AD or get them to sell at a loss - as noted, that's simply not going to happen. These deals are discussed because we simply want to feel that we've been treated fairly and with the respect that we deserve. No one wants to find out that their neighbor payed less for the same product just because they negotiated better. Importantly, we are too often left questioning whether that has actually occurred when we deal with AD's representing TAG Heuer (or any other brand for that matter) - and if you're questioning whether you got fleeced, then you aren't as satisfied with your purchase, you aren't as satisfied with TAG Heuer, you aren't as satisfied with the AD, and you simply aren't as happy; that only leads to negatives.

What I'd like to see is for TAG Heuer and TAG Heuer's AD's to treat us, the customers, with respect. Give us a fair price and stand behind it. Don't treat every sale as an opportunity to see how much you can get out of us. That's not how I treat my clients in my profession, and that's not how I want to be treated when I'm the client. 

I'd also argue, from a business perspective, an AD would be hurt rather than helped by selling a watch at a higher price above the true "market value" - an unhappy and dissatisfied customer is more damaging than making a hundred dollars less on the deal. Don't you want to buy from an AD that has earned a reputation for offering good, fair deals, rather than an AD where you are eternally questioning whether you're made a fool who is being parted from his money? 

At the end of the day, if they were to do this, to create a clear and fair pricing policy that they can stand behind, then I bet they'd see an increase in customer satisfaction, an increase in customer loyalty, an increase in sales, and an increase in profits - and isn't that what they're ultimately after?

So I don't think TAG Heuer or any AD's should be afraid of customers discussing the deals they've gotten. They should appreciate having satisfied customers who then go out and become ambassadors for them, and they should appreciate the additional business that is driven by this discussion. 



Again, I apologize if this post is inappropriate or misplaced, and I also apologize for the length (if I had more time, I would have written less :-d). It's simply my opinion on this issue, and as someone with an interest in business strategy, I feel fairly strongly about it from that standpoint. I also feel fairly strongly as a consumer who's been left feeling like I got taken advantage of in similar pricing situations. I think it's important to stand up for the consumers and provide a different perspective.

Thanks!


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## Eeeb

All posts are accepted as long as they fall within the guidelines. Yours certainly does. Thanks for taking the time to express yourself.

Should someone post them, you will find we have generally moderated out the details of AD deals especially those involving WUS sponsors such as Topper. This is at the express instruction of the ADs.

I got a good deal = OK
I got 30% off = not OK

If you (or anyone else) see any we missed, please PM me or Enrico or use the "report this post" warning triangular icon off to the left of all posts.

Note, this guidance may not be in effect in other forums on the site. 

I understand how many would want details. However ADs who advertise discounts can loose the "A" part of AD (authorized dealer). Since their sponsorship pays for the servers and the electrons flowing through them, we like and need to keep them happy.

Thanks again!


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## Guest

I agree 100% with dkatunc's post and thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in. I don't run a business so obviously my view is from a consumer perspective, but I don't fully understand the "fear" of prices being revealed within public. We all agree that every product has a "recommended retail price" set by the manufacturer, but this isn't set in concrete. AD"s obviously have a certain amount of flexibilty in the final price and this isn't always the same for every customer. Those with better negotiating skills may fare better, and likewise those who are regular customers to a store are more likely to get friendlier discounts.

I think most people are happy to tell others what they paid for an item (especially if they were happy about it) and this could surely only end up with increased business for a company that gets a reputation of fair pricing. Every time I have looked at a watch at an AD the salesperson ALWAYS starts the converstaion with "Of course we can take off _x_% from the RRP for you on that item", with no prompting from me.:-s This is the sort of behaviour that makes me think that maybe the RRP's are falsely set too high in the first place. If they are happy to lower the price themselves right at the start then I say just make that the RRP and stop jerking us around. Surely they don't think that we are silly enough to believe that they are doing us a favour by offering that discount, they are just bringing it down closer to what the RRP should be in the first place in my opinion. I'm not having a dig at TAG Heuer, I realise that this is common practice in alot of retail chains, but I think it's misleading. Maybe they want people to feel all warm and fuzzy that they got _x_ amount off the item, and maybe it's just some clever marketing ploy that actually works in generating sales, I don't know. I just say a fair price for a fair product's worth, and over-inflating the initial price just so you can look like the good guy when you drop it must border on illegal, if not at least immoral practice.

Like I said this isn't a swipe at TAG Heuer, but retailers in general. I have come across identical items in different stores with such a large difference in price (with no sales or discounts to account for it, just normal everday price) that it makes me wonder what some products are really worth. Obviously we shop around and negotiate, and just as the store will only sell an item at a price they are happy with, we only buy items at a price we are happy with too don't we? That's my 2 cents worth, (but I'll give it to you for 1 cent):-d


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## calibre36

Just my thoughts here.

A long time ago when I was very young, my Dad came back from a trip to Turkey and regaled us with great stories of haggling and negotiating with vendors for goods. This seemed like such a foreign concept to me at the time. A lesson I was taught was, "the worst that can happen if you ask for something is to get a 'no'". With these two ideas in mind, I started asking salespeople and owners everywhere I went if they could do a little better on their price, here in the US, where the culture generally is that you pay what is on the price tag or go somewhere else. I was surprised how easily businesses would knock off 10% almost without thinking about it. Why would they do this? As a customer, you feel like you got a perk, a little extra, and you'll come back. You'll tell your friends and refer more business to them.

I don't think TAG Heuer is doing anything wrong with their pricing. This style of selling occurs in furniture sales, electronics, cars, motorcycles and boats, houses, clothing stores and is the norm in corporate negotiations with suppliers and vendors. It allows the AD flexibility in their pricing to remain competitive and offer the customer a price that makes both parties happy. Negotiating a price is an emotional endeavor. The goal is for BOTH parties to feel happy with the deal. Do you want your AD to be around in the future to service your watch and keep giving you great customer service for years to come or do you want them to close up shop, like so many businesses have in the past few years? I want my dealer to be around. They need to make profit to stay in business, and as long as I feel happy with what I paid for my luxury item and they make a profit, we are then mutually taken care of.

Watches are prestigious and artistic jewelery pieces these days. Do you want to order it from a website or do you want to be treated like you are really important to someone's business? I selectively paid a couple of hundred more for my TAG to buy from an AD instead of taking an internet price from an UNAUTHORIZED retailer, which was cheaper, even for the same watch. I don't feel like my AD takes advantage of me in any way -- and a happy sale really is all about how you feel in the end.

My personal philosophy is not to worry about what my neighbor paid. I am happy with how I'm doing for myself to even be able to own such a wonderful item as a TAG Heuer watch. Some people can afford these on a whim and others have to save up. I am proud of my purchase and so very happy. If someone else paid $200 less for the same watch then I think they must be a great negotiator or have a wonderful hook up and I hope they are just as excited about their TAG as I am.


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## catch

Eeeb said:


> Every vendor has suggested retail prices... TAG Heuer is no different.
> 
> Many vendors feel that open discussion of discount pricing of a product diminishes the prestige of the brand. TAG Heuer is no different.
> 
> It is considered rude behavior to advertise or imply AD's discounts, even if the notes come from satisfied customers.
> 
> WUS keeps electrons flowing through the servers by having sponsors some of whom are ADs. (We have Topper Jewelers for example.) It is considered very very very rude behavior to discuss or imply the pricing of the forum sponsors. (You may note we have cleaned up some posts in various threads that were not in this spirit...)
> 
> We thank you for your cooperation in this matter...


Understandable, but still...

I see a phew problems:
1. Vendors 'stimulating' AD's to advertise SRP only (as in: if you dont, suffer the consequenses)
2. Powerful Vendors trying to manipulate the free market - keeping prices high
3. Apparently, many 'mid- & high-end' watches are being bought with discount; as i've been trained and been educated, that would mean that 'Dealers who sell these kind of watches' don't offer Added Value. Customers do research before entering a dealer-shop, wether they do that on the Net or visit other dealers earlier. Bottom line, even these kind of watches have become 'commodity' in a way.. Like high-end consumer electronica + cars. Many competition, similar offering and no USP's.. So the main question is: 
Dear AD, (cc all Vendors who show monopoly behaviour)
We all know that you're not delivering any Added Value, why not just cut the crap?
Dear Vendor,
I know you guys are getting frustrated but increasing the price more often, is becoming very sad and lame. Maybe you should try to deliver more quality and service instead.... (just a thought)


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## Eeeb

Eeeb said:


> All posts are accepted as long as they fall within the guidelines. Yours certainly does. Thanks for taking the time to express yourself.
> 
> Should someone post them, you will find we have generally moderated out the details of AD deals especially those involving WUS sponsors. This is at the express instruction of the ADs.
> 
> I got a good deal = OK
> I got 30% off = not OK
> 
> If you (or anyone else) see any we missed, please PM me or Enrico or use the "report this post" warning triangular icon off to the left of all posts.
> 
> Note, this guidance may not be in effect in other forums on the site.
> 
> I understand how many would want details. However ADs who advertise discounts can loose the "A" part of AD (authorized dealer). Since their sponsorship pays for the servers and the electrons flowing through them, we like and need to keep them happy.
> 
> Thanks again!


Reposted as a reminder. We have had a few violations this week.


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## enricodepaoli

Always good to remember. Specially in a firm, yet in a polite and informative manner. Thanks Eeeb.


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## kevinkar

This happens with everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. There was an article in the paper today about Honda being upset with some "true car pricing" website because the lower prices "diluted the brand" or some such nonsense which to any sane person couldn't be farther from the truth. If you like Honda and think they are fine cars and reliable and worth the money you pay, then they are just that. You would only think that MORE SO if you indeed got a $25k car for $20k. What a great deal! I got a great car for less money. That says nothing about the car being a cheap piece of carp. ONLY to the manufacturer does that have any bearing on the perceived value of the car.

Same is true of watches. Just because the watch's MSRP is $2700 does not mean it's actually worth $2700. It just means that's what someone wants to get for it. If anyone finds out that AD A sold it for $$2000 the only thing it serves to do is lower the realized profit for someone somewhere be it the AD or the manufacturer (really it's only the AD since the manufacturer more than likely sells them to ADs for some set price). It does not actually dilute the brand at all because if a customer wants the watch they want the watch. If I could get a $2700 Tag Heuer for $2000 I would never think the watch was actually "cheap". Rather I'd think "Hey, I got a great watch at a great price! What a lucky purchase!"

While I don't agree with the policy, it's what WUS has set as the rule and, like it or not, that's how we have to play their game. It's their ball and they can go home with it if they want. But there's no way that I believe it's a correct or legitimate policy whatsoever. Its only purpose is to artificially set a price for a watch and keep it there for the sake of someone's profit, nothing more. Don't think for a second that I believe the prices these watches (or any other brand for that matter) is actually worth the MSRP at all. Ideed, I know for a fact they are not. All I have to do is buy one to see that they all are over priced. There are some real bargains out there for sure (Seiko, for example has some really great watches for really great MSRPs) and I've bought 5 Tag Heuers over the years at close to full MSRP because I was not able to negotiate the price down. That's a shame because, after owning them for all these years, I know I paid more than they were worth.

Don't get me started on the refusal of some Sony dealers to sell their TVs at a more reasonable price than full MSRP. "I can't sell it for less otherwise Sony will slap my wrist!" So what? Sony sold it to you for X. They want you to sell it for X + $200 which is your selling price but I want to buy it for X + $50. If you sell it for that, you get $50, Sony gets their X and I am a happy customer, you get at least $50. But, if you refuse to sell it due to some stupid AD agreement then you get 0 and I shop somewhere else. That doesn't dilute the brand because I STILL BOUGHT IT although somewhere else.

Same is true of watches.

No, this is purely a means to keep prices high nothing more. It's stated so in the first post above - it's all about brand perception and I think we all know that the brand is good regardless of price. So the rule is, in my opinion, silly. I personally thing that the Internet is about free and open communication and, if it leads to more reasonable pricing so be it. If you don't like the profit margin then maybe you should be in some other business or get out of sales altogether.

If I can get a brand new $5000 Tag for $4000, that does NOT mean the watch or brand is *cheap*. It just means I got a great deal and some AD didn't get as much profit as they wanted. Tag Heuer still got paid what they wanted when they sold to the AD so any "perception" issues are purely profit motivated.

That's the way I see it.

Unfortunately, WUS's rules are their rules and, though I don't agree with them, I follow them. I can always blog actual prices on my own website if I want to.


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## GRACEHMS

Unfortunately, I respectfully disagree with this. Is it really appropriate to have sponsors censoring what information users feel like posting? 

It's the information age - retailers need to realize this and embrace it, not try to quiet the masses. 

I think that giving in to the sponsors request undermines the purpose of an open forum community like this. 

:thumbdown:


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## HaleL

Dkatunc,
Could not agree more with you. Glad you posted.


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## Eeeb

GRACEHMS said:


> Unfortunately, I respectfully disagree with this. Is it really appropriate to have sponsors censoring what information users feel like posting?
> 
> It's the information age - retailers need to realize this and embrace it, not try to quiet the masses.
> 
> I think that giving in to the sponsors request undermines the purpose of an open forum community like this.
> 
> :thumbdown:


Your opinion is respected but this 'no specifics' discussion request is not because of any attempt to hush the masses. The dynamics of the industry will result in manufacturers pressuring their sales agents if these specific deals are discussed. Not giving specifics and attaching them to an individual AD gives the ADs more freedom, not less and us buyers bigger discounts (if we try for them). That may be counterintuitive to some but it is actually true.

The ADs who give substantial discounts told us if the discounting levels they give were discussed publicly they would not be able to continue them. That was how this request came into being. I hope that helps explain.


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## GRACEHMS

Interesting. Thanks for the additional info.


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## Eeeb

GRACEHMS said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the additional info.


Hey, you were right. It really is a community forum.

Thanks for your expression of concern. I am sure other people thought the same. You posted. Thanks for that.


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## rosborn

Well, I am sure I violated this policy when I purchased my AR in March of 2012. I'm sure my violation was due to the jubilation I felt by being able to purchase my watch for the price I did, from an actual AD ( I NEVER thought this was doable). That being said (all excuses aside), I am sorry for breaking this rule of the forum.

The fact of the matter is this - there is nothing stopping individuals from contacting one another via private messages if specifics of a watch purchase are desired.

Thank you, Eeeb, for this policy and I heartily apologize for any rule infractions I may have committed.


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## Camdamonium

Eeeb said:


> Your opinion is respected but this 'no specifics' discussion request is not because of any attempt to hush the masses. The dynamics of the industry will result in manufacturers pressuring their sales agents if these specific deals are discussed. Not giving specifics and attaching them to an individual AD gives the ADs more freedom, not less and us buyers bigger discounts (if we try for them). That may be counterintuitive to some but it is actually true.
> 
> The ADs who give substantial discounts told us if the discounting levels they give were discussed publicly they would not be able to continue them. That was how this request came into being. I hope that helps explain.


Makes a lot of sense when you think about it. Thanks for clearing it up!


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## HonzaH

Thanks for letting us know. I had no idea its not right thing to do. At least now I know.


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## Mooda

Eeeb said:


> Your opinion is respected but this 'no specifics' discussion request is not because of any attempt to hush the masses. The dynamics of the industry will result in manufacturers pressuring their sales agents if these specific deals are discussed. Not giving specifics and attaching them to an individual AD gives the ADs more freedom, not less and us buyers bigger discounts (if we try for them). That may be counterintuitive to some but it is actually true.
> 
> The ADs who give substantial discounts told us if the discounting levels they give were discussed publicly they would not be able to continue them. That was how this request came into being. I hope that helps explain.


But on the other hand if discount figures are not mentioned then how would future buyers know what to ask for.
Maybe as e.g. the average discount is 25% and since no figures are mentioned, I might close a deal from an AD with 10% discount.

Many people before buying a watch visit several dealers to check the watch, try it on, ask about the price but not many people would make the full price negotiations with several ADs so they can check the final discounts.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


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## prokhmer

Does watchuseek run by a corporation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sassebastian

I love this forum


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## jamesbiz

lol what a silly rule.... As if the forum cares about the few sponsors, more than the 1000's of forum members, that make this forum what it is.


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## jamesbiz

Mooda said:


> But on the other hand if discount figures are not mentioned then how would future buyers know what to ask for.
> Maybe as e.g. the average discount is 25% and since no figures are mentioned, I might close a deal from an AD with 10% discount.
> 
> Many people before buying a watch visit several dealers to check the watch, try it on, ask about the price but not many people would make the full price negotiations with several ADs so they can check the final discounts.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Yeah, saving the discounts for the few people that actually know better, at the cost of 99% of the rest of buyers, that don't know better. How altruistic of the AD"s. lol. If people don't know about the deals, then the deals might as well not even exist.


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## Black5

jamesbiz said:


> lol what a silly rule.... As if the forum cares about the few sponsors, more than the 1000's of forum members, that make this forum what it is.


It's not a matter of "caring", it's being practical. The forum is free to participate for members, but it costs real money to maintain a forum of this size, and it is the sponsors money that actually funds the means to allow the forum to exist.

This is a small compromise, for the larger benefit, and those that want to pursue discounted purchases from AD's, or any other source, are still free to do so - they simply need to ask.

Not publicising the specific amounts, doesn't make the discounts any less attainable.



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


So many watches, So little time...


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## jamesbiz

Black5 said:


> It's not a matter of "caring", it's being practical. The forum is free to participate for members, but it costs real money to maintain a forum of this size, and it is the sponsors money that actually funds the means to allow the forum to exist.
> 
> This is a small compromise, for the larger benefit, and those that want to pursue discounted purchases from AD's, or any other source, are still free to do so - they simply need to ask.
> 
> Not publicising the specific amounts, doesn't make the discounts any less attainable.
> 
> So many watches, So little time...


Your average consumer doesn't even have a clue that AD's give discounts, let alone the 30% or so people are reporting. People assume, that retail price is retail price. As some people in this thread have mentioned, you'd be surprised just who is willing to give you a deal. But dealers don't want people knowing that. Why would they? I sure wouldn't. So, yes, discounts are less attainable in this sense, because people either don't know it's even possible, or if they do know it's possible, have zero clue how much is possible. It starts to get into the territory of knowing the secret phrase, to get into the under ground club. Doesn't make it less attainable, but sure as hell makes it harder for everyone but the ones in the know .

I'm a seller as well, lol so trust me when I say, I'm biased towards people NOT knowing I'm willing to make a deal. But I can still be honest in saying what I said.


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## Black5

jamesbiz said:


> Your average consumer doesn't even have a clue that AD's give discounts, let alone the 30% or so people are reporting. People assume, that retail price is retail price. As some people in this thread have mentioned, you'd be surprised just who is willing to give you a deal. But dealers don't want people knowing that. Why would they? I sure wouldn't. So, yes, discounts are less attainable in this sense, because people either don't know it's even possible, or if they do know it's possible, have zero clue how much is possible. It starts to get into the territory of knowing the secret phrase, to get into the under ground club. Doesn't make it less attainable, but sure as hell makes it harder for everyone but the ones in the know .
> 
> I'm a seller as well, lol so trust me when I say, I'm biased towards people NOT knowing I'm willing to make a deal. But I can still be honest in saying what I said.


Your "Average consumer" doesn't frequent these forums.

The rule doesn't preclude people from discussing the existence of discounts.
It is commonly and frequently discussed, and certainly not discouraged.

It only requests that we don't discuss the actual amount of the discounts.

As a seller yourself, surely you understand that discounts are discretionary, and the rate of discounts are selectively applied for a whole host of different reasons.

Do you offer the same specific discounts to ALL your customers after having offered once?

Just because a specific discount was offered once to somebody, that doesn't automatically mean that the same discount must be made available to ALL buyers.

If this were the case, then any discount would simply become the new RRP and businesses would need to adjust their profit expectations and mode of business accordingly.

In effect, publicising discounts, could effectively stop their continued ability to offer discounts.

If someone is happy to pay RRP, (or even over RRP), for any item, then why is that a problem?

If they subsequently discover that someone else got a discount, because they asked, or because they shopped around, or because it was clearance stock, because (insert more reasons)... then that's on tbem and hardly the retailers fault.

As a business owner and being responsible for a P&L, I also give discounts where appropriate to do so, but that's something I get to determine based on my business priorities, not something I have to do, or am expected to do.

I've seen my share of people "demanding" discounts that they don't deserve and are not sustainable for my business, and I have even exposed my costs to clients with varying results. Most understand and accept that I need to make a margin to survive, some will expect me to take a loss, and my best clients have enough deep understanding of my business that they will never ask for pricing that is not viable for me.

I have even had a major client, that offered to pay a higher margin than I asked to ensure a high level of ongoing support.

There is nothing wrong with WUS trying to ensure the sustainability of this site, for the benefit of members to enjoy for FREE, by taking on sponsors, and by supporting those sponsors.

They aren't really asking for a lot.
1. Access to possible customers
2. Protection of their margins

If we want to be free of these constraints, then we can move to a subscription model and make contributors pay, or depend on donations to keep the forum going.

There are other forums that function that way.

In the meanwhile, enjoy the FREE access you have to a wonderful community, with great members, great discussions and an enormous amount of information and accept the limited constraints which are really in place for the members long term benefit.



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


So many watches, So little time...


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