# time change



## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

One feature of having your watch coupled to the cellular network
is local time being frequently updated. The "watch" function tracks
the local time and updates from the network. Days like today when
the time changes in most of the US you don't need to do a reset.
Indeed the smart watch reminds you it is time to reset your 
traditional clocks and watches to stay in sync with the world.


Thanks,
rationaltime


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Assuming the OS doesn't have a bug preventing a proper time update (happened just once or twice for some iPhone owners over the years, but it's happened).

Still, my AW was correct Sunday morning, while my two radio-synced quartz watches hadn't received a signal overnight and needed me to adjust them manually.


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## Sheldon John Clark James (Jun 15, 2015)




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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Thatvl is a benefit of a watch slaved to a reliable network. Hope yo find out soon before the leep second hits.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> Thatvl is a benefit of a watch slaved to a reliable network. Hope yo find out soon before the leep second hits.


Cellular networks aren't known for timekeeping reliability (as unbelievable as it sounds). Apple avoids them by maintaining its own internet-accessed time servers -- I think they have three around the world -- and references them to the atomic clocks.

This was an earlier thread; the linked article has a lot more detail:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f586/apple-watch-accuracy-explained-detail-2725905.html


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

BarracksSi said:


> Cellular networks aren't known for timekeeping reliability (as unbelievable as it sounds). Apple avoids them by maintaining its own internet-accessed time servers -- I think they have three around the world -- and references them to the atomic clocks.
> 
> This was an earlier thread; the linked article has a lot more detail:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f586/apple-watch-accuracy-explained-detail-2725905.html


I did read that article when it came out. After I get my watch, I should be able to get an idea of its performance.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> I did read that article when it came out. After I get my watch, I should be able to get an idea of its performance.


You might be one to enjoy testing its performance purely in Airplane Mode for a while and see how well its internal timekeeping circuit performs.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

BarracksSi said:


> You might be one to enjoy testing its performance purely in Airplane Mode for a while and see how well its internal timekeeping circuit performs.


But how long can you keep the watch in airplane mode before you start itching?

I keep my alarms on my phone so, I'd be annoyed tomorrow morning-though I suppose I could program my alarms on my watch instead of my phone. But for me, I would absolutely need my watch out of airplane mode with my next trip requiring Apple Maps and Pandora-in a few days.


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

BarracksSi said:


> Cellular networks aren't known for timekeeping reliability (as unbelievable as it sounds). Apple avoids them by maintaining its own internet-accessed time servers -- I think they have three around the world -- and references them to the atomic clocks.
> 
> This was an earlier thread; the linked article has a lot more detail:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f586/apple-watch-accuracy-explained-detail-2725905.html


I have not read that cellular networks are unreliable. The frequency and
time on the network need to be carefully synchronized for data flow and 
traffic hand off. The base station would go down if it loses sync with the
network. It would drop the calls. If a base station did go down it would
attempt to resynchronize. If you are not using the phone you wouldn't
even notice the interruption and neither would the phone's clock.

The network and the base stations are accurate enough for passing time to
cellular phones. I read that thread earlier. It occurred to me there are plenty
of public NTP servers, but maybe Apple wanted to avoid adding a noticeable
load to a public resource. Adding dedicated servers would not be expensive
compared to their other overhead.

It also occurred to me that NTP servers can log the requests they receive.
A cell phone request with serial number, base station ID, and time stamp 
could be about 10 Bytes. Those Apple NTP servers could track the locations
of 100 million phones once an hour on about 25 GB/day. The cost is small,
and they don't have tell you about it or ask the cellular providers' permission.

Just something to think about.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Check the photos. Did this a year ago, cellphone time, gps time, and atomic time are all within a 0.1s. Been that way since ATT started using time.gov a couple of years ago.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Cannot help as I am not on AT&T. I suppose I could check AW Fenix 3 and a watch set to NTP srrverrss.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Actually Ron you can add to the answer. I was addressing the question is cell phone time pretty accurate. The Garmin is there just to show the atomic clock was accurate. I guess it also showed the Garmin is pretty good also.

Simply open Emerald time or the time on watchville on your iphone, put your AW next to it. You will see your network time, atomic clock and AW time.

I'm betting whatever network you're using it will be pretty good.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

wbird said:


> Actually Ron you can add to the answer. I was addressing the question is cell phone time pretty accurate. The Garmin is there just to show the atomic clock was accurate. I guess it also showed the Garmin is pretty good also.
> 
> Simply open Emerald time or the time on watchville on your iphone, put your AW next to it. You will see your network time, atomic clock and AW time.
> 
> I'm betting whatever network you're using it will be pretty good.


I was going to use Emerald time on the Iphone but maybe a synch of the Fenix right before I was speculating on HAQ as to how long it would take to see an AW offset in airplane mode.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Well you want to answer a different question Ron. Sync your Apple Watch with you phone than just put it beside your iPhone displaying emerald time. You will see your network time, atomic clock, and AW. If you want to look at the accuracy of a synced Fenix feel free.

You can answer how good your network is at time and you'll be able to start your TC study because you have a baseline.

Put your AW in airplane mode that will turn off all the wireless stuff. 

Here is the important part, go to your phone settings and make sure your watch is not set to mirror your phone settings. You want to use your phone and just want your AW in airplane mode.

In 30 days if the AW moves about a second you're as good as most Certina's and Bulova's. 

Hope you get to enjoy some of the AW features soon, you might like Apple Pay, messages, phone calls on your wrist, to name a few.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Wbird sounds like a good idea. I will post the images in HAQ which you visit.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

wbird said:


> Well you want to answer a different question Ron. Sync your Apple Watch with you phone than just put it beside your iPhone displaying emerald time. You will see your network time, atomic clock, and AW. If you want to look at the accuracy of a synced Fenix feel free.
> 
> You can answer how good your network is at time and you'll be able to start your TC study because you have a baseline.
> 
> ...


I am missing something. Bluetooth off on iPhone and airplane mode on watch. What does mirroring do under those conditions? If this is not enough, exactly which mirrorting flag check goes off?


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> I am missing something. Bluetooth off on iPhone and airplane mode on watch. What does mirroring do under those conditions? If this is not enough, exactly which mirrorting flag check goes off?


Changing the iPhone mirroring setting won't matter. When the watch is in airplane mode, both the wifi and Bluetooth radios are off, and the phone won't be able to communicate with the watch even if it tried.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

As long as your watch is in airplane mode and not set to mirror your phone, you can use all the features on your phone including bluetooth. But if you want be safe you could leave bluetooth off on your phone. Gotta admit its been awhile since I played with the watch I gave my kid. I think the flags were in notifications and custom. Hopefully another member can confirm this.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

I was just thinking, I could try tracking my AW's non-connected timekeeping for a while. I can't wear it at work, plus I'm usually on my computer at home (I get all notifications, including texts, on the computer anyway) so I've been wearing my Rado more often instead.

Assuming that the Watch doesn't revert out of airplane mode when it's recharged, I could use it to track my workouts and stuff, too.

Surely it'll be better than my Garmin 410, which would forget what day it was if the battery ran down.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

I could be wrong but I thought the mirror feature allows you to pick the watch features you want to activate.

For example when your watch mirrors your iPhone, when you put your phone in airplane mode your watch goes into airplane mode. If you turn on wifi on your phone on the plane the wifi mode will go on your watch also all other feature will remain off.

I thought that's why it was important to make sure you set your mirror settings. The phone can talk to the watch even if the watch is in airplane mode if the mirror setting are on.

Do I have it wrong?


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

wbird said:


> I could be wrong but I thought the mirror feature allows you to pick the watch features you want to activate.
> 
> For example when your watch mirrors your iPhone, when you put your phone in airplane mode your watch goes into airplane mode. If you turn on wifi on your phone on the plane the wifi mode will go on your watch also all other feature will remain off.
> 
> ...


Halfway wrong (or "halfway right"?)... 

If you set the mirror setting for Airplane Mode, then when you _enable_ Airplane Mode on the watch, it will also tell the phone to switch to Airplane Mode. This is useful when, say, you board an airplane and decided to keep the phone in a purse or carryon bag -- you won't need to dig out the phone to switch it to Airplane Mode.

When a device is in Airplane Mode, though, its radios are turned off, and it won't communicate with anything else. Say that the watch is still in Airplane Mode -- even if you switch the phone's wifi and bluetooth on and you try to do a "find my watch", the watch _will not respond_.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Looking forward to seeing how yours and Ron's watches perform. Don't sell that Garmin short, that one in the picture was synced at around noon for a run and photographed at a 11pm. Very little drift if any over 11 hours.

I'm also curious how other cellphone carriers compare to AT&T. 
One of the few things that can be answered fairly easily.

I've got to admit I liked the AW for the short time I had it my kid loves it so it's never coming back. But I'm really starting to lean more towards the Garmin vivoactive.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

wbird said:


> Don't sell that Garmin short, that one in the picture was synced at around noon for a run and photographed at a 11pm. Very little drift if any over 11 hours.


My 410 used to lose its mind. I don't think it had an independent timekeeping circuit or a separate mini-battery for the clock. Although it could be set manually, it was a lot easier to charge it up and let it get a GPS signal.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

My Fenix 3 keeps time as well as a Casio.


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## Robert801 (Nov 23, 2016)

Looking Good


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Five days' worth of Airplane Mode and my AW's accuracy is within the range of any errors caused by me tapping my iPhone for each data point. Better than my G-Shock for sure.

I haven't let the battery run down yet, so I don't know if (1) it'll maintain time when it runs out of power and (2) if it'll automatically switch to regular mode when it turns back on.

I also took it for a jog Thursday, which gave me a special Thanksgiving 5k achievement badge.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

17 days of Airplane Mode and I think it's lost half a second. My Citizen synced with Ft. Collins last night (according to its status indicator), so it should be spot-on. The three pics are in sequence using my iPhone's rapid-fire mode.

I may write a post later about what it's like to step away from the Watch after using it regularly.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I cannot tell from my images, but less than two weeks in.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

I'm impressed BarracksSi, 17 days and you aren't missing the other features yet? I'm pretty certain I lack the will power to give up the other features. But if you are getting use to not using them I have some good news and bad news. The good news is if you stop right now the watch is performing as well as most of the recent crop of Certina's and Bulova's over on the HAQ forum. The bad news is as you know a lot of regular quartz watches can perform exceptionally well for short periods of time. So to get the answer to if it is really super accurate without syncing would require a long term sacrifice.

I suggest we call it HAQ based on your data, end the study, link it back to your phone, and let it go back to being a 50ms accurate super handy smart watch. Send a quick ok reply text, answer a call, download some music, fire up the gps, take a run, and track it. Just me but I hate to see you and that Apple Watch suffer another week living the life of an ordinary watch.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Heck yeah, I'm missing everything that I normally use it for. It's all those little conveniences that add up.

Without a connection to the phone, it's still very capable, though. I use it to wake myself in the morning on workdays (which is funny, because I can't wear it at work, so I put on a regular watch before leaving the house&#8230, log my workouts, and use the timer for laundry or cooking. I have a couple games on it that are completely native and run just fine, too.

But, I have to use my phone a lot more than before, too. Without data, the AW doesn't do texts or calls, obviously-but it also doesn't grab the weather (as shown by the blank complication in the bottom left corner), let me screen emails, or register voice commands.

I'm going to do a couple more things: let the battery run down and see if it automatically reverts to using the radios when it restarts, and then see what it's like to use when I turn the phone's wifi and Bluetooth off (_and_ see if it'll sync with Apple's time servers over my home wifi).

If I could use it at my job, I wouldn't be experimenting like this. But, it's been an interesting opportunity.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

BarracksSi said:


> 17 days of Airplane Mode and I think it's lost half a second. My Citizen synced with Ft. Collins last night (according to its status indicator), so it should be spot-on. The three pics are in sequence using my iPhone's rapid-fire mode.
> 
> I may write a post later about what it's like to step away from the Watch after using it regularly.


Wow, that's around COSC spec for quartz. Knowing that Jony Ive has an interesting watch collection and who Marc Newson is, I wonder if they aimed for that specifically.

I would last one evening, before I start going batty. One full day, tops. Once I need Maps or the Pandora remote, I'm switching off airplane mode. Those are the only things for which I need airplane mode on, so hypothetically, I should be able to last a long time in airplane mode. But when I need maps, I really need maps. That said, if I had a car with Apple Carplay, instead of an iPod connector in the glove compartment, that would probably change.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

wbird said:


> I'm impressed BarracksSi, 17 days and you aren't missing the other features yet? I'm pretty certain I lack the will power to give up the other features. But if you are getting use to not using them I have some good news and bad news. The good news is if you stop right now the watch is performing as well as most of the recent crop of Certina's and Bulova's over on the HAQ forum. The bad news is as you know a lot of regular quartz watches can perform exceptionally well for short periods of time. So to get the answer to if it is really super accurate without syncing would require a long term sacrifice.
> 
> I suggest we call it HAQ based on your data, end the study, link it back to your phone, and let it go back to being a 50ms accurate super handy smart watch. Send a quick ok reply text, answer a call, download some music, fire up the gps, take a run, and track it. Just me but I hate to see you and that Apple Watch suffer another week living the life of an ordinary watch.


I will still be testing for two or more weeks, if you cannot hold out getting the full functionality of the watch you could end your test.


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

While you have the receivers in your watches turned off can you get
the watches to display the temperature?


Thanks,
rationaltime


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

rationaltime said:


> While you have the receivers in your watches turned off can you get
> the watches to display the temperature?
> 
> Thanks,
> rationaltime


Nope, not at all. It's looking for the weather temperature, not the on-your-wrist temperature.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

rationaltime said:


> While you have the receivers in your watches turned off can you get
> the watches to display the temperature?
> 
> Thanks,
> rationaltime


I can check but the temperature comes from the phone weather app, AFAIR.
I just checked that face. It was there and then blanked the fields out.


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

Back to this: --> Apple watch accuracy explained in detail.

December 30, 2015:
"... Lynch also described the hardware inside of the Apple Watch that makes sure the time remains accurate. Each Apple Watch has a temperature-controlled crystal oscillator inside to combat time drift that clocks and watches see. The oscillator also makes sure the Apple Watch remains warm enough to keep accurate time in very cold climates. Thanks to this hardware, the Apple Watch is even more accurate than the iPhone."

I suppose you could control or compensate for the temperature without
measuring the temperature, but it seems like a method an analog part 
would use. Perhaps the Apple Watch apps don't know about or have 
access to an on die temperature sensor.

Thank you for the reports.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Even if they allowed access to the temperature sensor, it'd be useless to most people. I check the temperature to decide which jacket I should wear, not to find out how warm my wrist is.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

We cannot adjust the TC tables so access to the die temperature is not really useful.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> We cannot adjust the TC tables so access to the die temperature is not really useful.


Oh, you mean to change the thermocompensation setting inside the watch? Yeah, I don't think Apple would allow such deep system-level hacking (and, rightfully, no smartwatch manufacturer ever should, because of personal device security...).


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Well, this took long enough. I last wore it overnight Tuesday night to wake myself Wednesday morning, then left it off the charger. I don't even think I started the evening with a full charge.

Sometime late Thursday, it had over 20% battery, so I put it on and started a Workout to try to drain it faster. It worked, and went into Power Reserve mode, where it stayed until last night or this morning. (Btw, it's Saturday now, so that's over four days of displaying the time in Airplane Mode with minimal usage).


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Recharged it, and it remained in Airplane Mode. I also checked its timekeeping, and it's still on track for -1sec/month. Pretty nice.

Next, I'll turn off my iPhone's wifi and Bluetooth, and bring the watch out of Airplane Mode. I'll find out if it'll re-sync its time over my home wifi without the phone.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Heh. It worked! The watch synced with Apple's time servers. The offset is now 0 sec rather than -0.8 sec.

It also picks up weather data, at least; maybe more. I wonder if it'll send Workout data to the phone via iCloud.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

BT and WiFi were on but no connection ylto your IPhone?


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> BT and WiFi were on but no connection ylto your IPhone?


Right -- I turned off my iPhone's BT and Wifi. I'm forcing the AW to use my home's Wifi network for an internet connection.

On the watch itself:
- its iMessages have caught up to the present state of my conversations; 
- Mail hasn't picked up any emails newer than the last sync with my phone in November; 
- Weather is up to date (along with other weather apps like Dark Sky and RadarScope); 
- Maps won't get directions to, say, Work without the phone, but it tries to get data for other locations. Kind of weird, actually;
- The Apple Store mini-app loads as an app but doesn't seem to grab data. Same with KakaoTalk;
- Slack isn't a native app, so it needs the iPhone connection to load and run. Some others are the same;
- CityMapper works. Wow. So does News360. Native apps like these are more likely to be usable.

So it'll do _some_ things without the phone, but not everything. It also doesn't appear that the AW can upload its Activity data through the internet where it can then download to the phone -- it needs a direct connection to the phone instead.


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

I made a little drawing to represent the set up as I visualize it. It is pretty
generic. For example, there may be just one WiFi router and ISP. It seems
possible there could still be data transfer between the watch and phone 
without the phone using Bluetooth or WiFi.









I don't know how much you want to test or explore the system. Can you
send your wife a message from your Apple Watch with the phone powered 
off? "Siri, tell my wife ..." If your wife sends you an iMessage does it show
up on the watch when your iPhone is off?

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

rationaltime said:


> I don't know how much you want to test or explore the system. Can you
> send your wife a message from your Apple Watch with the phone powered
> off? "Siri, tell my wife ..." If your wife sends you an iMessage does it show
> up on the watch when your iPhone is off?


It works! Cool. I didn't think to try it before, so I shut my phone off just now and sent a couple texts via Siri on the watch. I even did the usual, "Tell my wife &#8230; etc" and it worked.


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## Bill R W (Nov 9, 2015)

BarracksSi said:


> Recharged it, and it remained in Airplane Mode. I also checked its timekeeping, and it's still on track for -1sec/month. Pretty nice.
> 
> Next, I'll turn off my iPhone's wifi and Bluetooth, and bring the watch out of Airplane Mode. I'll find out if it'll re-sync its time over my home wifi without the phone.


BarracksSi --

Are you using the Watch Tracker app to measure the precision of your AW2? Do you like the app?

I think I may be getting an AW2 for a Christmas gift and am looking forward to testing it. I have generally used Emerald Time and my eyes (and ears with Emerald Time's audio output) to test mechanical watches. I have used Emerald Time and a GPS pps signal, along with high speed photography, to test high accuracy quartz watches like a Morgenwerk (discussed in several threads in the HAQ forum). I may give the Watch Tracker app a try too.

Have also been following Ronald Held's tests of his AW2 on the HAQ forum.

Glad to see the AW2 performing well as timepiece. Looks like it may be a digital HAQ on a stand alone basis, with the ability to synch time with Apple time servers over Bluetooth/ internet. Do you know if the AW2 will also synch time with GPS satellites when using GPS?

Bill


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Bill R W said:


> Do you know if the AW2 will also synch time with GPS satellites when using GPS?


It might, just like how my Garmin 410 gets its time (which is good because the Garmin forgets what time it is when the battery runs out). But I don't think the AW needs GPS time sync since it should normally be connecting to the internet and the phone.

Watch Tracker is good for me. I was using the Activity Digital face on the AW because it has running seconds, much like how I can use Watch Tracker to test my G-Shock (which runs -0.2/d without radio sync).


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Bill R W said:


> BarracksSi --
> 
> Are you using the Watch Tracker app to measure the precision of your AW2? Do you like the app?
> 
> ...


AFAIR it can sync to GPS in standalone mode, but I have not tried it.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

It took a day or two, but my Thanksgiving 5K badge appeared in my Activity app.

Remember, I had started my little experiment before Thanksgiving, and although I went for a jog on Thanksgiving Day-farther than 5 km, but it counted-the AW retained the run in its database since then.

This badge wasn't synced yet when I looked yesterday.


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