# A Lange watch finish issues



## taled (Feb 28, 2020)

Hi everyone,

Recently I saw a picture on Instagram of a Lange moonphase model (192.029). Its seconds hand as seen in the picture was unfinished in the lower side of the hand as was seen by the reflection from the moon.
I know you won't see this side but in specific angles if you would on purpose look for it, but still.
I have seen photos of Grand Seikos that their hands left unfinished on their lower side and felt that it is unacceptable, so on a Lange watch it is in my opinion outragous.
My dream is to one day purchase A Lange watch and this fact really disappointed me. One of their biggest mottos is their uncompromising finishing. 
Is this their standard? Is it just one watch example that they forgot to finish this part?

I wonder if PP or other high end houses also don't finish these parts just because no one could see it to cut costs.

Would love to read your thoughts and knowledge on the subject,
Thanks.


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## weisscomposer (Dec 2, 2018)

Can you post the picture in question?


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## greentimgreen (Dec 31, 2019)

I’ve seen this topic discussed before and I believe it’s done purposefully so minimise reflections and aid legibility. 


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## taled (Feb 28, 2020)

weisscomposer said:


> Can you post the picture in question?


Here is the photo, I hope it is ok to post it here.
All credits to horomariobro. You can find him on Instagram.


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

There's a lengthy discussion about this on a different website. There, folks are saying that Lange, Patek, Breguet, and (Grand) Seiko don't finish the underside of their hands. UN and at least one independent (Romain Gauthier) do. Some speculate it's about not spending the time/money, while others speculate it's useful not to have this part finished because it reduces reflections. Personally it doesn't bother me, in the same way that I don't expect the underside of a watch dial to be finished.


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## matthew P (Aug 1, 2013)

That is an impressive polish on the moon.

Do any of the listed “non polish manufacturers “ have an official position on the issue. ?


•• sent by two turn tables and a microphone ••


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## sea_urchin (Jun 4, 2015)

I too would like to hear the official version, I am sure they are aware of this and may even have left it unfinished on purpose, however, if you stake your reputation on finishing every single part by hand, and I read somewhere even on parts that are hidden, then this is disappointing. They could have at least smoothed it out and still left it unpolished.

Can you image if the underside was engraved, how epic would that be !


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## sea_urchin (Jun 4, 2015)

In this video it starts with "We perfect each and every part even the parts that you can't see'





This is taken from ALS website, "Each component is decorated with its own specific type of finissage, whether or not it is visible through the sapphire-crystal caseback. No matter how small it might be, each part must comply with rigorous artisanal and aesthetic standards"
https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/stories/finish-engraving

More I think about this the more disappointed I am becoming, especially as this is (was) a grail watch 

@CFR, can you point me in the direction of the other site where this is being discussed.


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## taled (Feb 28, 2020)

CFR said:


> There's a lengthy discussion about this on a different website. There, folks are saying that Lange, Patek, Breguet, and (Grand) Seiko don't finish the underside of their hands. UN and at least one independent (Romain Gauthier) do. Some speculate it's about not spending the time/money, while others speculate it's useful not to have this part finished because it reduces reflections. Personally it doesn't bother me, in the same way that I don't expect the underside of a watch dial to be finished.


I find it hard to believe that the real reason is reducing reflections. It is probably cutting costs. 
At these prices I hoped for better treatment. This watch is almost 1 year's average salary in the US, I expected in this price range that these parts would be finished.
I don't think you can compare finishing the underside of hands to finishing the underside of a dial, but that is just my opinion.
But maybe i'm wrong, maybe to get this kind of finish you would need to spend 100k on a watch, it still disappoints me, only because I love this company so much and would have loved to get one of their watches in the future.
Now I'm not so sure about it =\


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## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

Can't comment on the Lange but owning a GS Snowflake I can say the hands are finished on the underside (I see the reflection of the bottom of one on the top of the other). Not sure if all GS hands are finished the same way but at least some are finished on the underside.


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## DoraTheExplorerII (Dec 12, 2014)

This might be the fire that brings down Lange, like with what happened to Panerai!


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

taled said:


> I find it hard to believe that the real reason is reducing reflections. It is probably cutting costs.
> At these prices I hoped for better treatment. This watch is almost 1 year's average salary in the US, I expected in this price range that these parts would be finished.
> I don't think you can compare finishing the underside of hands to finishing the underside of a dial, but that is just my opinion.
> But maybe i'm wrong, maybe to get this kind of finish you would need to spend 100k on a watch, it still disappoints me, only because I love this company so much and would have loved to get one of their watches in the future.
> Now I'm not so sure about it =\


Even though not finishing the underside of the hands does reduce reflections, I too don't believe that's the reason. If it were the reason, then Lange would finish the underside of all hands that don't pass over any reflective surfaces (such as a moonphase disc or an applied dial marker). But I am not sure cost-cutting is the reason either, because Lange spends a lot of time applying finishes to parts of the movement that nobody will ever see. I think that takes more time than applying even a basic, simple finish to the bottom of the hands, but I could be wrong about that.

You may find this great debate about Lange (from over 20 years ago!) to be interesting. Weisscomposer might especially enjoy the references to Mozart, opera, etc. It's an interesting read!

Also, I am curious about why, in your opinion, the decision to not finish the underside of the dial can't be compared with the decision to not finish the underside of the hands. To me they are both parts that (a) come from outside suppliers, (b) aren't visible during normal use, and (c) could be finished but are deliberately not finished.

Lastly, I would be interested to know if finishing the underside of the hands was ever part of the Saxon watchmaking tradition. If "no," then Lange could use "it is not our tradition" as a (marginally plausible) justification, though of course many who are bothered by this would find that reason to be disappointing and/or arbitrary.

Fun stuff!!


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

John Price said:


> Can't comment on the Lange but owning a GS Snowflake I can say the hands are finished on the underside (I see the reflection of the bottom of one on the top of the other). Not sure if all GS hands are finished the same way but at least some are finished on the underside.


That's interesting! I guess GS is inconsistent about this. Someone just posted macro shots of his GS hands on another forum to show how they're not finished either. But he didn't say what model GS or how old it is.


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## John Price (Feb 21, 2011)

That could be. Or a change in how they do things now vs in the past. My Snowflake is a pre Seiko/Grand Seiko "split" model, one of the last to still have Seiko and Grand Seiko branding both on the dial. Perhaps there was more time then to devote to finishing. Perhaps.



CFR said:


> That's interesting! I guess GS is inconsistent about this. Someone just posted macro shots of his GS hands on another forum to show how they're not finished either. But he didn't say what model GS or how old it is.


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## Dunnej (May 4, 2020)

I have a really hard time believing that this was "overlooked" or "missed.".

Lange does *everything* for a reason, it's in their DNA. Legibility and clear communication of information are the hallmarks of the brand. If polishing the underside of that seconds hand would have aided in legibility, or if it would have helped more clearly communicate the information I'm sure they would have done it.


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## Supero100x (Feb 16, 2018)

That’s a hell of a moonphase.

I gotta say I actually think the design is slightly diminished by the rough underside of the hand. It probably would have been quite a while before I noticed it though if it was in my hands.

But now I can’t unsee it!


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## GrouchoM (Jul 11, 2013)

Hadn't anyone had a response from ALS on this?


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## mmiah80 (Oct 1, 2019)

sea_urchin said:


> In this video it starts with "We perfect each and every part even the parts that you can't see'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They talk about their movements. ALS is a movement company. That's their expertise.

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## kritameth (Oct 11, 2015)

Very interesting thread. For the price, I would've expected the underside to be finished to the same high standards as the topside. But I also expect the underside of the dial to be finished, so take that for what it's worth.


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## maylebox (Feb 11, 2017)

Aw man, this is like when I was a kid and found out that there really isn't a Santa Claus. Okay maybe not that bad, but then again not too far off. As Supero100x said, now I can't unsee it.


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## sea_urchin (Jun 4, 2015)

GrouchoM said:


> Hadn't anyone had a response from ALS on this?


Asked the question a few weeks back directly to ALS, nothing back yet and tbh not really expecting a reply


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## sea_urchin (Jun 4, 2015)

mmiah80 said:


> They talk about their movements. ALS is a movement company. That's their expertise.
> 
> Sent from my HTC U12+ using Tapatalk


That's like saying Rolls Royce is just an engineering company.


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## weisscomposer (Dec 2, 2018)

Life is way too short for me to let an unfinished part that I can't see stop me from deriving joy and pleasure from an otherwise beautiful wristwatch.


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

kritameth said:


> Very interesting thread. For the price, I would've expected the underside to be finished to the same high standards as the topside. But I also expect the underside of the dial to be finished, so take that for what it's worth.


I appreciate this, because it highlights the extent to which we have realistic expectations as well as what those expectations are based upon, and how arbitrary and individual they can be. Every single surface of every single component is not highly finished on pretty much every watch -- Patek Philippe, Lange, etc. I supposed Lange could've ordered thicker hands and polished the undersides of them (not sure if that'd require slightly increasing the case thickness, though). But if Lange did this, then wouldn't the people who wanted the bottom of the hands polished still want all the other surfaces (such as the underside of the dial) to be finished? If not, why not? The surface area of the dial is much bigger than that of the hands. Personally, if I could have Lange finish only one of those two surfaces, I'd pick the bottom of the dial because I think it'd be cooler.


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## GrouchoM (Jul 11, 2013)

I wonder if one could request the downward side be polished in a service.


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## jims_gym (Jun 17, 2020)

To me, it does not matter. Most high end watches do that...


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