# Friends of Oris - CAUTION



## Biff1974

For those of you who have interest in Oris Watches, I completely understand. I just received my Oris ProDiver and simply love it. Thing is I had fully intended on buying the watch from FRIENDS OF ORIS. However, it did not end up that way. I elected to purchase the watch through Continental Diamond and am extremely happy I did. Why?? Here is an overview of my experience with Friends of Oris. If you plan to buy an Oris Watch from Friends of Oris, I strongly suggest you read this. 

I did a web search to find information on the Oris ProDiver. Came across a video review by Andrew (Smithy) Smith. I watched the review and quickly realized I had to have this watch. Andrew and his colleague did a very nice job of reviewing the watch and commenting on the many features and benefits. After reviewing prices on Friends of Oris, I elected to contact them to order the watch. Prior to actually ordering the watch, I had conversations with FRIENDS OF ORIS. I told them I was a little nervous about spending so much money with a distributor so far from home. FRIENDS OF ORIS assured me it would be a smooth process. They provided lots of information including the fact that they are AUTHORIZED ORIS DEALERS. Based on that, I placed the order. At time of order, I asked for written confirmation of the order outlining price paid, shipment information, receipt etc. FRIENDS OF ORIS assured me that would be provided. 

FRIENDS OF ORIS informed me the watch would be pressure tested before it shipped so be patient. At time of shipment, they would provide the detail I requested. A few days later, I received shipping information - but still no receipt - I would soon find out why this never happened. 

The product would be shipped by one of the largest overnight freight companies. This made me feel good. My wife is a former employee of this global freight company and has many contacts within the organization. Should something go wrong, I felt a bit more comfortable knowing she could call in some favors.

I checked the large freight companies website each day to see where the watch was in the shipping process. Finally, the watch arrived in the states. According to their website, the watch would be in my city the next day. A few hours later, I got a call from the large international freight company, the shipment had been stopped. Appears US Customs would not clear the package. I spoke with my wife, she called some folks at the large international freight company and got the details. Shipment was halted because the shipper - FRIENDS OF ORIS - declared value of the watch at approximately $65.00. Well under the actual value of the watch. When I questioned why they would do this, the large international freight company said it may have been done to avoid paying high duties and taxes. 

I called FRIENDS OF ORIS to inform them of the situation. They said "in more than 10 years of servicing the US market, this has never happened before". They said don't worry, they would handle it. One day later, I get a call from FRIENDS OF ORIS asking me to be patient and not to return the watch. They are working with local representatives from the large international freight company and they will get things squared away. 

I received another call from the large international freight company saying the watch would be returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. I understood the reasons for doing so and was set to move on. Next day, the watch was actually delivered to me. I did not expect this at all. I took the watch, and headed off to jewelry store to have the band adjusted. When I arrived back at my home, the large international freight company had returned. They said they needed to take the watch because it still had not passed customs. Shocked - sorta - I gave them the watch and they left. 

I called FRIENDS OF ORIS to report the update. During the conversation, they asked me to pay for duties and taxes. They said they would credit whatever the cost was. I refused to do so. They also offered to send the watch back in two separate boxes. By doing so, they could call it a repair vs. sale of a new watch. They felt this option would insure it moved through customs without issue. I said no. 

Watch was returned and credit was requested. More than a week went buy and I received a credit from FRIENDS OF ORIS. However, the credit was more than $180 less than what I paid for the watch. I called FRIENDS OF ORIS and asked them to credit the entire amount originally paid. They responded by saying they paid exactly what was originally charged. They are not responsible for adjustments in currency. I informed FRIENDS OF ORIS that I did not break the law - they did - and got caught. Why should i pay for their illegal activities. The refused to pay.

I called the credit card company and challenged the charge. They stepped in an attempted to make things right. After almost 8 weeks, they settled the problem - THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY PAID THE DISPUTED VARIANCE - NOT FRIENDS OF ORIS. IF THIS POSTING PREVENTS ONLY ONE PERSON FROM EXPERIENCING THE SAME PROBLEM, THEN I HAVE DONE MY JOB. 

For those who may say....you have got to be kidding me - this could not happen - it did. And........I have 100% of the transaction, activities and communications documented along with support information from the large international freight company. My suggestion is to seriously consider any transaction you might have with this company. I would also suggest Oris Watch Company strongly consider ending their business relationship with FRIENDS OF ORIS.


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## DimeRazorback

You took the risk of purchasing internationally. This stuff happens.
They tried to help you by decreasing the taxes you would have to pay.
It was caught out... this happens sometimes.

It is true that they are not responsible for the global economy, so why would they pay you back more than you paid them in the first place?
That is another risk with international trading... the loss of money.

Friends of Oris are great. They do everything they can to help their customers.
Maybe they shouldn't have claimed it at a lower price, and just let you cop the taxes. My guess is that you wouldn't be happy then either.

I have bought over 200 items from the U.S in the last year and a half. I have had similar incidents to you occur.
I have had things lost because the seller didn't ship to the right address *or* via the correct and agreed upon method, and they have then told me stiff luck.
You got your refund. Why would you blame them for the risk of taking part in an international trade where the economy changes constantly?

I say again, international purchasing comes with risks.
There is no reason that they require a caution however.


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## Biff1974

DimeRazorback - This might be a shocker for you but......we live in a global economy. Since when is purchasing an item from an AUTHORIZED ORIS DEALER Considered "taking a risk by purchasing internationally. You have got to be kidding me!! Your statement alone should send people running the other way. What you are saying is......ATTENTION ALL ORIS WATCH BUYERS.....IF YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND BUY FROM FRIENDS OF ORIS......YOU ARE TAKING A RISK. Don't get me wrong - I agree, with what your saying - purchasing from FRIENDS OF ORIS is a massive risk that should be avoided. 

With regard to taxes / duties. They never gave me the option to make a decision one way or another. Something you might want to consider - information allows one to make well informed decisions. They never offered any information regarding duties and taxes. 

If you conduct your business in an honest and ethical manner I suspect it would lead to better press - just a thought.


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## fleiger

woah... for an oris fan like me... this really serves as an eye opener


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## naihet

I find it totally strange that the watch was released (presumably by customs) only to be repossessed as soon as it was delivered? can someone explain that please?


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## jaws revenge

That's unfortunate, but I think the exception . I bought two tt1's from foof with no problem. I think they were marked warranty spring bar replacement for customs purposes and no hold up in delivery.
Also this is more common than you might think. Buying from the Singapore dealers for example often mark gift for customs purposes.

Ps dime, hello from CPF


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## Ozy

naihet said:


> I find it totally strange that the watch was released (presumably by customs) only to be repossessed as soon as it was delivered? can someone explain that please?


The courier company have a registered 'bond' store which allows them to bring international cargo back to their warehouse prior to customs clearance.

This is referred to as bonded cargo.

The clearance is then entered for each item, once cleared, they are despatched for delivery.

There should be distinct demarcation between bonded cargo, and free goods (items that have been cleared)

The courier company operated outside the scope of their licensing, or due to human error, put it on a truck for delivery as opposed to a truck for re-export.


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## Biff1974

Very good question. One I asked the large international freight company. They had no idea how it happened and were quite embarrassed by the whole thing.



naihet said:


> I find it totally strange that the watch was released (presumably by customs) only to be repossessed as soon as it was delivered? can someone explain that please?


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## Biff1974

It may be the exception but they had a choice on how to handle it. They handled it very poorly. Unless my CC company stepped in, I was about to be out $180 for something I had no control over. They never called me to say "hey, you mind if we cut some corners with US Customs to save us some money on taxes and duties. I don't doubt the practice is common - I also don't doubt it is illegal.


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## Koenta

I so disagree with TS!
Service at FOO is perfect, bought there my 2nd Oris without any problems.
They did everything they could to get you the watch asap.
They offered you to credit the additional costs! Who would do that!
And int. currency fluctuate, you alo could have come out better....
In my point of view FOO is not to blaim.


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## DimeRazorback

Biff1974 said:


> DimeRazorback - This might be a shocker for you but......we live in a global economy. Since when is purchasing an item from an AUTHORIZED ORIS DEALER Considered "taking a risk by purchasing internationally. You have got to be kidding me!! Your statement alone should send people running the other way. What you are saying is......ATTENTION ALL ORIS WATCH BUYERS.....IF YOU LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND BUY FROM FRIENDS OF ORIS......YOU ARE TAKING A RISK. Don't get me wrong - I agree, with what your saying - purchasing from FRIENDS OF ORIS is a massive risk that should be avoided.


Ummmm exchange rates change...
That was my point. It is a risk when you buy something that is from another country, and therefore exchange rates play part in the price. 
Don't twist my words, it is not appreciated.

Therefore, if you buy something for say US$100 when the Oz dollar is only buying US$0.60, and you get a refund when it is at US$0.80 you obviously wont get the same amount back...

You are just a disgruntled customer... or should I say ex-customer.

It could have worked out differently for you if the exchange rate differed... you could of made money out of the refund.
Would you return the difference?


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## naihet

Ozy said:


> The courier company have a registered 'bond' store which allows them to bring international cargo back to their warehouse prior to customs clearance.
> 
> This is referred to as bonded cargo.
> 
> The clearance is then entered for each item, once cleared, they are despatched for delivery.
> 
> There should be distinct demarcation between bonded cargo, and free goods (items that have been cleared)
> 
> The courier company operated outside the scope of their licensing, or due to human error, put it on a truck for delivery as opposed to a truck for re-export.


Thanks for the explanation Oz :-!
gee i wish this error occurred every time i purchase goodies internationally exceeding Aussie tax threshold :-d


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## Ozy

naihet said:


> Thanks for the explanation Oz :-!
> gee i wish this error occurred every time i purchase goodies internationally exceeding Aussie tax threshold :-d


:-x

Happens more with the post than with dedicated door to door courier companies (DHL / UPS / FEDEX) - Because they dont have any discrimination between commercial and non commercial goods - The post have people that screen the cargo and decide based on commodity and consignee details who gets stung....(usually)


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## Fitzer

Biff1974 said:


> They never called me to say "hey, you mind if we cut some corners with US Customs to save us some money on taxes and duties. I don't doubt the practice is common - I also don't doubt it is illegal.


They weren't saving themselves anything, they were attempting to save you money. You buy something from overseas for a given price, all import duties and taxes on receipt in your country are your responsibility.


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## CaptRimmer

I'm not belittling the issue but this is the first time I have ever heard anything less than 100% positive about FOO.
Just wondering why you didn't go with an AD in the same country/state as you reside?
While I sympathise with your individual experience, suggesting Oris end their business relationship with FOO is a bit strong and (this aside) completely unfounded. I'm sure FOO have hundreds if not thousands of satisfied customers.

I sincerely hope this has not put you off Oris in general and can find the ProDiver you clearly desire. Good luck in your search.
Brgds,
Capt


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## Temperarely

Hey ,

Quote Fitzer

"They weren't saving themselves anything, they were attempting to save you money. You buy something from overseas for a given price, all import duties and taxes on receipt in your country are your responsibility. "

Yeah , i have to agree with Fitzer.

Perhaps your interferance by contacting " the large international freight company" made it worse.
Suddenly the package got the "special" interest of the customservice.

Elf.


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## azerbyjam

I've bought several pieces from Rob, Smithy, Lisa and Co and never once had a problem.

I hope this won't cause an issue with future purchases from FOO where the invoices are 'ahem' adjusted. Just some folk trying to help out a few watch enthusiasts.

Now, if only Oris would release something new I'd like, I'd be giving FOO some more of my money :-!


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## ATinPGH

I guess I can cross them off of my list. I am looking at adding a third Oris and it definitely won't be from so-called Friends of Oris.

I'm surprised that so many people are advocating and supporting the idea of LYING on the customs forms. If they want to send things to the States then they should be prepared to pay the duties. 

Total agreement with Biff on this one. Oris should pull the plug. Someone else will step up and fill the void.


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## Temperarely

Hi,

Quote ATinPGH,

"If they want to send things to the States then they should be prepared to pay the duties." 

NO , If YOU want to Import things to your country , YOU have be prepared to pay tax. Not the other way around.
I am not happy paying/funding our national taxfund ,paying a lot already, and will do a lot to avoid it. I am not a hypocrite about it.
And if someone is willing to give me a hand with that ,that's just fine with me. But I won't cry about it when it doesn't come throu customs uncharged either. 
That's part of the game. 
If you want to avoid it go to your local AD. Where all duty's are allready in the purchasing price.

My two cents , Elf.


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## DimeRazorback

How is it that people are so ignorant towards international trading? :-s

Why would the sender pay the _*import*_ tax for _you_ to _import_ something?

o|


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## Biff1974

After reviewing the reply's, let me add some additional information. 

First - What FRIENDS OF ORIS did is illegal. Anyone who questions that is simply kidding themselves. When you send goods to the United States with a declared value well below the stated price - that is illegal. It may happen, everyone might do it, but no matter how you spin it, it's illegal. 

Second - I purchased the watch from FRIENDS OF ORIS vs. local AD because of the positive reviews, my personal discussion with them and the assurance this would be a great experience. Further, they offered a very competitive price. Turns out, I made the wrong decision. 

Third - Had FRIENDS OF ORIS simply said, we will honor the price quoted, but you pay duties and taxes, then everyone - FRIENDS OF ORIS and customer - are absolutely clear of the expectations. That is NOT what occurred. FRIENDS OF ORIS said the price was a DELIVERED price to me. So, correct me if I am wrong, but the expectation is that the product will be delivered to my address for the price quoted - THIS MEANS DUTIES, TAXES AND FREIGHT PAID. Had these not been the terms of our agreement, I would not have moved forward with the order. 

Fourth - FITZER....THIS ONE IS FOR YOU - THERE WAS NO RECEIPT. Not sure how many of you have purchased goods online - lots I suspect. When you go to Amazon and buy a product, Amazon immediately provides a detailed receipt of the transaction along with shipping information and tracking number. FRIENDS OF ORIS NEVER provided any form of receipt - well I should not say that. I do have documentation of the price for customs purposes - about $65.00. Not exactly a receipt of the transaction - at least not from my perspective. If Amazon ever provided this level of "service" they would be out of business. 

Hey DimeRazorback - before you cause yourself too much pain from that head banging on the wall....let me answer your question. THE REASON THEY WOULD PAY THE TAX IS BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE AGREED TO DO - THE AGREEMENT WAS.....I WOULD PAY A MUTUALLY AGREED UPON PRICE - SOME CALL IT A FIXED PRICED - FOR A SPECIFIC ITEM WHICH INCLUDED DUTIES, TAXES AND FREIGHT - HERE IN THE STATES, WE CALL IT A "PURCHASE AGREEMENT". Now I suppose your going to tell me the facts surrounding a purchase agreement can change depending on where the item is sourced. An agreement is simply that - an agreement. It is binding. Failure to fulfill the agreement = Breach of Contract. In this case, FRIENDS OF ORIS BREACHED, I ASKED FOR CREDIT AND END UP $180 LIGHT FOR THEIR BREACH OF THE AGREEMENT. Just out of curiosity, how many times do you intend to do business with a business who fail to meet the mutual agreement? My answer - zero


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## Rhyalus

Biff - you had me till that last paragraph. FOO did indeed break the law by specifying a lower value to the watch....to the guy who said that they were helping you - that is not relevant. Without mutually agreeing to break the law, they should not have done it on their own. 

But in fact is that they were not trying to help you at all; if indeed they did agree to pay the "import" duties, this is why they declared such a low value. Once they got caught, they were stuck.

So the take away here, Biff, is that there are certain unavoidables in international buying.

FOO was wrong for misleading you and breaking the law, and you were wrong for not doing your homework.

Good luck on the next purchase...live and learn as they say....

R


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## Rhyalus

By the way, the right way to do this would have been to assume the typical 2.5% or so that Fedex charges, and just knock that off of your bill.

In all cases so far I have gotten a bill from Fedex ~30 days AFTER the watch was delivered. So no matter what, you would have had to have paid the bill unless you were going to mail it to FOO....

I have only bought from Malaysia, so I am not really an expert. I am assuming that it is similar from other countries as well.

What I don't get is what the $180 is for? If they are saying that the watch was delivered according to customs, then they are probably right that they could send it back as a repair. In that case, you would still be $180 down but at least you would have your watch....?

Regards,
R


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## Biff1974

Rhyalus - living and learning every is so true. Bit more info below. 

The $180 was the amount of money I lost when the watch was returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. Here are the facts. Watch was about $3,250 AUD - delivered to my house. When it arrived in states, customs reviewed documentation and became skeptical. They opened the box to find a watch with far greater value than $65.00. Net result, watch was returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. I called FRIENDS OF ORIS and asked for a full credit. About 2 weeks - maybe more - went by and a credit for $3,250 AUD was received. Some might say - you got your $3,250 AUD. This is a true statement - I did. However, the value of the US Dollar had dropped - according to FRIENDS OF ORIS - at time of credit. End result was a credit for $180 less than what I originally paid. 

Now some might say that is simply the cost of doing business with a foreign company. I would say, FAILURE FOR THE TRANSACTION TO GO THROUGH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. I PAID THE MONEY AND EXPECTED EXACTLY WHAT FRIENDS OF ORIS AGREED TO DO - SHIP WATCH, TO RESIDENCE, DUTIES, TAXES AND FREIGHT INCLUDED IN PRICE. THEY FAILED TO FULFILL THEIR (NOT MY) THEIR AGREEMENT. 

For those wondering what I would have done, pretty straight forward. Quote price and clearly outline who is to pay duties, taxes and freight. Then I would do what I said I would do and even send a receipt of the transaction - seems so straight forward. FRIENDS OF ORIS TOOK A DIFFERENT ROUTE. THEY PROVIDED PRICE (DELIVERED, DUTIES, TAXES PAID) TO DESTINATION. When everything fell apart, they ultimately credited my account for $180 less than what I initially was charged - adjustment in exchange rate. Please, you have got to be kidding me. 

For all you who feel FRIENDS OF ORIS is such a reputable, honest, Oris Dealer ask yourself this.......if the transaction failed as a result of something the Authorized Dealer did / or did not do properly.....don't you think they should simply say....We are extremely sorry for the problems you experienced and have credited your account for the entire amount - not the amount less adjustments due to changes in exchange rate - the entire amount. Why would they do this you might ask???? Well......here it comes........wait for it.......wait for it.......BECAUSE THEY OPERATE THEIR BUSINESS IN AN HONEST, ETHICAL AND RESPONSIBLE MANNER. Is it that tough to step forward and say..."we made a mistake, we apologize for the inconvenience and want to make sure you are fully covered for all your charges. Think about how much positive press someone like that would get.


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## Rhyalus

I dunno, pal....they paid you back the right amount... the lost money is in the hands of some international banker.  FOO is out their shipping costs as well.

Per the comment about positive press, I doubt you would have registered here at WUS to tell everyone how they corrected your refund for exchange rates.

Read up, learn the rules and buying internationally can be quite satisfying. I have saved a lot of money doing it this way.

Make sure to save at least $180 on your next buy and the balance of the universe will be restored...

R


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## Biff1974

Rhyalus - Respect your opinion, not buying the spin. 

FRIENDS OF ORIS did not lose a single dime in the transaction - yet that is. 

Something to consider - if your spending thousands of dollars on a watch, $180 is really very little in the overall scheme of things. However, for FRIENDS OF ORIS TO OPERATE IN SUCH AN UNETHICAL, ILLEGAL MANNER AND THEN SHORT ME $180, completely unacceptable. 

If your going to run a business unethically, simply note than on the advertising banners and front door of your store - "we are unethical, enter at your won risk" In doing so, everyone understands the playing field. 

Not sure what you mean by read up, learn the rules??? We are not talking rocket science here, no brain surgery going on. Simple transaction is what this was. FRIENDS OF ORIS agree to do and provide X, I agree to do and provide Y. I did my part, they - not at all. 

For the record - I work for a global manufacturing company. We have more than 34,000 employees and operations in 31 countries. We are constantly moving goods all over the world. I understand international trade.


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## link2derek

Point #1 -- I am in the States and have purchased from Freinds of Oris several times without a single issue.

Point #2 -- Why the heck did you give the watch back to the carrier? There's nothing they could have done to legally force you to return the watch to them. You could have avoided the whole thing by simply telling them, "No."

Point #3 -- You lost some serious credibility with me when you disclosed the fact that you had to have someone else size your band for you.


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## ed_nj

Guys, something is really fishy here...

Biff1974 - Join Date: Aug 2010...
"_large international freight company" took his watch back  ?!_
"_Contact Continental Diamond in St. Louis Park, MN. Ask for Andrew. He is fantastic." ???
The whole thing looks more like infomercial to me.

I just purchased my second Oris from Friends of Oris.
Fantastic experience! As soon as it arrived (with all receipts, international warranty etc.), I registered serial # on Oris - Purely mechanical Swiss watches. website and it immediately found model and authorized dealer (FOO) and issued additional year of warranty (3 years total).
Shipping took 4 days only, from Australia to NJ (!!!). (see attached tracking).
I will definitely use Friends of Oris for my next purchase.










_


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## Biff1974

ed_nj

Infomercial??? Come on - mine was child's play compared to yours.


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## Biff1974

Link2derek - 

Point 1 - Congratulations - you are lucky

Point 2 - Which carrier do you work for? UPS, FedEx, DHL? How do I say this, um, let me see, YOUR WRONG. Verify your statement, then post. Your post is simply not accurate. 

Point 3 - Well, if I lost credibility for my honesty, I can live with that.


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## ed_nj

BTW, just found tracking from my first purchase (last year)

Good Night, guys!

Take it easy, all these are totally unnecessary, luxury items... ;-)

:thanks


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## Biff1974

That tracking information looks like mine before the watch was taken back. What does your bill of sale look like? Can you share the receipt you received from FRIENDS OF ORIS? Love to share mine but never got one.


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## Fitzer

Biff1974 said:


> After reviewing the reply's, let me add some additional information.
> 
> Fourth - FITZER....THIS ONE IS FOR YOU - THERE WAS NO RECEIPT. Not sure how many of you have purchased goods online - lots I suspect. When you go to Amazon and buy a product, Amazon immediately provides a detailed receipt of the transaction along with shipping information and tracking number. FRIENDS OF ORIS NEVER provided any form of receipt - well I should not say that. I do have documentation of the price for customs purposes - about $65.00. Not exactly a receipt of the transaction - at least not from my perspective. If Amazon ever provided this level of "service" they would be out of business.





> [Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Biff1974*
> _ They never called me to say "hey, you mind if we cut some corners with US Customs to save us some money on taxes and duties. I don't doubt the practice is common - I also don't doubt it is illegal._
> 
> They weren't saving themselves anything, they were attempting to save you money. You buy something from overseas for a given price, all import duties and taxes on receipt in your country are your responsibility.


I don't see why you have aimed this at me, my comment (above) related to the fact that they were trying to save you money not themselves by their declaration, import duties etc. are always the responsibility of the personal importer i.e. you. These confusions crop up a lot on eBay and the like, someone quotes a price including shipping and then the buyer gets stung for import duty and tax, most international shippers will try to minimise this by mis-declaring (as you say, an illegal practice).


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## brett kenny

Biff1974 said:


> For those of you who have interest in Oris Watches, I completely understand. I just received my Oris ProDiver and simply love it. Thing is I had fully intended on buying the watch from FRIENDS OF ORIS. However, it did not end up that way. I elected to purchase the watch through Continental Diamond and am extremely happy I did. Why?? Here is an overview of my experience with Friends of Oris. If you plan to buy an Oris Watch from Friends of Oris, I strongly suggest you read this.
> 
> I did a web search to find information on the Oris ProDiver. Came across a video review by Andrew (Smithy) Smith. I watched the review and quickly realized I had to have this watch. Andrew and his colleague did a very nice job of reviewing the watch and commenting on the many features and benefits. After reviewing prices on Friends of Oris, I elected to contact them to order the watch. Prior to actually ordering the watch, I had conversations with FRIENDS OF ORIS. I told them I was a little nervous about spending so much money with a distributor so far from home. FRIENDS OF ORIS assured me it would be a smooth process. They provided lots of information including the fact that they are AUTHORIZED ORIS DEALERS. Based on that, I placed the order. At time of order, I asked for written confirmation of the order outlining price paid, shipment information, receipt etc. FRIENDS OF ORIS assured me that would be provided.
> 
> FRIENDS OF ORIS informed me the watch would be pressure tested before it shipped so be patient. At time of shipment, they would provide the detail I requested. A few days later, I received shipping information - but still no receipt - I would soon find out why this never happened.
> 
> The product would be shipped by one of the largest overnight freight companies. This made me feel good. My wife is a former employee of this global freight company and has many contacts within the organization. Should something go wrong, I felt a bit more comfortable knowing she could call in some favors.
> 
> I checked the large freight companies website each day to see where the watch was in the shipping process. Finally, the watch arrived in the states. According to their website, the watch would be in my city the next day. A few hours later, I got a call from the large international freight company, the shipment had been stopped. Appears US Customs would not clear the package. I spoke with my wife, she called some folks at the large international freight company and got the details. Shipment was halted because the shipper - FRIENDS OF ORIS - declared value of the watch at approximately $65.00. Well under the actual value of the watch. When I questioned why they would do this, the large international freight company said it may have been done to avoid paying high duties and taxes.
> 
> I called FRIENDS OF ORIS to inform them of the situation. They said "in more than 10 years of servicing the US market, this has never happened before". They said don't worry, they would handle it. One day later, I get a call from FRIENDS OF ORIS asking me to be patient and not to return the watch. They are working with local representatives from the large international freight company and they will get things squared away.
> 
> I received another call from the large international freight company saying the watch would be returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. I understood the reasons for doing so and was set to move on. Next day, the watch was actually delivered to me. I did not expect this at all. I took the watch, and headed off to jewelry store to have the band adjusted. When I arrived back at my home, the large international freight company had returned. They said they needed to take the watch because it still had not passed customs. Shocked - sorta - I gave them the watch and they left.
> 
> I called FRIENDS OF ORIS to report the update. During the conversation, they asked me to pay for duties and taxes. They said they would credit whatever the cost was. I refused to do so. They also offered to send the watch back in two separate boxes. By doing so, they could call it a repair vs. sale of a new watch. They felt this option would insure it moved through customs without issue. I said no.
> 
> Watch was returned and credit was requested. More than a week went buy and I received a credit from FRIENDS OF ORIS. However, the credit was more than $180 less than what I paid for the watch. I called FRIENDS OF ORIS and asked them to credit the entire amount originally paid. They responded by saying they paid exactly what was originally charged. They are not responsible for adjustments in currency. I informed FRIENDS OF ORIS that I did not break the law - they did - and got caught. Why should i pay for their illegal activities. The refused to pay.
> 
> I called the credit card company and challenged the charge. They stepped in an attempted to make things right. After almost 8 weeks, they settled the problem - THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY PAID THE DISPUTED VARIANCE - NOT FRIENDS OF ORIS. IF THIS POSTING PREVENTS ONLY ONE PERSON FROM EXPERIENCING THE SAME PROBLEM, THEN I HAVE DONE MY JOB.
> 
> For those who may say....you have got to be kidding me - this could not happen - it did. And........I have 100% of the transaction, activities and communications documented along with support information from the large international freight company. My suggestion is to seriously consider any transaction you might have with this company. I would also suggest Oris Watch Company strongly consider ending their business relationship with FRIENDS OF ORIS.


are you for real dude???

have you been certified??

:roll::roll::roll::rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart


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## Bruce-YVR

Biff1974 said:


> Rhyalus - living and learning every is so true. Bit more info below.
> 
> The $180 was the amount of money I lost when the watch was returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. Here are the facts. Watch was about $3,250 AUD - delivered to my house. When it arrived in states, customs reviewed documentation and became skeptical. They opened the box to find a watch with far greater value than $65.00. Net result, watch was returned to FRIENDS OF ORIS. I called FRIENDS OF ORIS and asked for a full credit. About 2 weeks - maybe more - went by and a credit for $3,250 AUD was received. Some might say - you got your $3,250 AUD. This is a true statement - I did. However, the value of the US Dollar had dropped - according to FRIENDS OF ORIS - at time of credit. End result was a credit for $180 less than what I originally paid.
> 
> Now some might say that is simply the cost of doing business with a foreign company. I would say, FAILURE FOR THE TRANSACTION TO GO THROUGH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. I PAID THE MONEY AND EXPECTED EXACTLY WHAT FRIENDS OF ORIS AGREED TO DO - SHIP WATCH, TO RESIDENCE, DUTIES, TAXES AND FREIGHT INCLUDED IN PRICE. THEY FAILED TO FULFILL THEIR (NOT MY) THEIR AGREEMENT.
> 
> For those wondering what I would have done, pretty straight forward. Quote price and clearly outline who is to pay duties, taxes and freight. Then I would do what I said I would do and even send a receipt of the transaction - seems so straight forward. FRIENDS OF ORIS TOOK A DIFFERENT ROUTE. THEY PROVIDED PRICE (DELIVERED, DUTIES, TAXES PAID) TO DESTINATION. When everything fell apart, they ultimately credited my account for $180 less than what I initially was charged - adjustment in exchange rate. Please, you have got to be kidding me.
> 
> For all you who feel FRIENDS OF ORIS is such a reputable, honest, Oris Dealer ask yourself this.......if the transaction failed as a result of something the Authorized Dealer did / or did not do properly.....don't you think they should simply say....We are extremely sorry for the problems you experienced and have credited your account for the entire amount - not the amount less adjustments due to changes in exchange rate - the entire amount. Why would they do this you might ask???? Well......here it comes........wait for it.......wait for it.......BECAUSE THEY OPERATE THEIR BUSINESS IN AN HONEST, ETHICAL AND RESPONSIBLE MANNER. Is it that tough to step forward and say..."we made a mistake, we apologize for the inconvenience and want to make sure you are fully covered for all your charges. Think about how much positive press someone like that would get.


Interesting posts here... all I know is I wont deal with FoO, and I have never deal with them.

Why??

As an Oris AD, they would declare lower ( wayyyyy under ) purchase price to avoid paying taxes etc. is a good enough reason for me NOT to deal with a so called AD like FoO. I expect this kind of practise from a grey market dealer or a private seller. Certainly NOT from an AD!!!!!!

FWIW,

Bruce


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## Watchyman

All i can say is that you really need to take a chill pill man.
So FOOF was trying to make you a favor and now all of a sudden no one should
buy from them but from Continental Diamond?.
You got your money back so move on man.


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## brett kenny

Bruce-YVR said:


> Interesting posts here... all I know is I wont deal with FoO, and I have never deal with them.
> 
> Why??
> 
> As an Oris AD, they would declare lower ( wayyyyy under ) purchase price to avoid paying taxes etc. is a good enough reason for me NOT to deal with a so called AD like FoO. I expect this kind of practise from a grey market dealer or a private seller. Certainly NOT from an AD!!!!!!
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Bruce


you seem confused just as the OP is. repeat after me:

"the seller is NEVER responsible for customs, duties and taxes, the buyer is".

FoO were doing the buyer a favour (as most sellers do) in helping them avoid paying extra taxes by declaring a lower amount. If they declared the full value amount, guess who would pay the taxes?? The BUYER!!

there is an important point here, the OP has lied by saying the seller had an agreement for a certain price shipped to their door including customs, duties and/or taxes, simply because no seller could ever know what levels of taxes or duties might be hit on a buyer from the buyer countries govt. This has and always will be out of the control of any seller, AD or not.

arm yourself with these well known facts and you will make comments that make sense

cheers


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## Rhyalus

brett kenny said:


> FoO were doing the buyer a favour (as most sellers do) in helping them avoid paying extra taxes by declaring a lower amount. If they declared the full value amount, guess who would pay the taxes?? The BUYER!!
> 
> cheers


I agreed with all that you said but this. If the OP is telling the truth, FOO agreed to absorb the cost of import. They figured that they would get away with this by declaring an absurdly low value and they figured the $1.75 (2.5% or so on the $69) would be ignored by the buyer.

So they really mishandled this -if- the OP is giving the full story - right?

And Bif - you said that the seller did not lose anything.... this is not true. They shipped you the watch and paid for that - even if it was returned, they still lost out. You only lost out because of the exchange rate - that could have gone the other way had you been lucky.

R


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## Bruce-YVR

*I am now confused....*



brett kenny said:


> you seem confused just as the OP is. repeat after me:
> 
> "the seller is NEVER responsible for customs, duties and taxes, the buyer is".
> 
> FoO were doing the buyer a favour (as most sellers do) in helping them avoid paying extra taxes by declaring a lower amount. If they declared the full value amount, guess who would pay the taxes?? The BUYER!!
> 
> there is an important point here, the OP has lied by saying the seller had an agreement for a certain price shipped to their door including customs, duties and/or taxes, simply because no seller could ever know what levels of taxes or duties might be hit on a buyer from the buyer countries govt. This has and always will be out of the control of any seller, AD or not.
> 
> arm yourself with these well known facts and you will make comments that make sense
> 
> cheers


Brett... I never mentioned anything about buyer should not pay taxes. As matter of fact, I agree with you that buyer pays for the taxes. I bought my $1000 Laco and I paid all the taxes ( $200 ) and thats just part of getting items from overseas. I got my Panerai from US and I paid over $550 for taxes. This way, my watches are legally imported into Canada.

My point is that FoO would not declare full purchase price is a good enough reason for me not to buy an Oris from them. Dont do nobody a favour by doing illegal stuff. I bought watches from oversea AD and all of them declare the full purchase price on their invoices. This way it protects both sides.

For a so called Oris AD doing this kind of illegal action, it is wrong. You will never know, maybe FoO is on the US custom black list already.

Bruce


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## TVDinner

I got a killer deal on my Oris right here in the states. No need to take all of this head ache and hassle IMO.


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## brett kenny

*Re: I am now confused....*



Bruce-YVR said:


> Brett... I never mentioned anything about buyer should not pay taxes. As matter of fact, I agree with you that buyer pays for the taxes. I bought my $1000 Laco and I paid all the taxes ( $200 ) and thats just part of getting items from overseas. I got my Panerai from US and I paid over $550 for taxes. This way, my watches are legally imported into Canada.
> 
> My point is that FoO would not declare full purchase price is a good enough reason for me not to buy an Oris from them. Dont do nobody a favour by doing illegal stuff. I bought watches from oversea AD and all of them declare the full purchase price on their invoices. This way it protects both sides.
> 
> For a so called Oris AD doing this kind of illegal action, it is wrong. You will never know, maybe FoO is on the US custom black list already.
> 
> Bruce


Bruce, you are indeed correct, but mate, there are laws and there are laws.

declaring low value of an item to help a buyer avoid fees comes under j walking category of laws imo. in any case, this practice can only hurt the seller, so a buyer who holds a seller in less esteem because of this is confusing to me at least anyway. also, we have only one side of the story...personally i find it hard to believe a proper AD and hugely respected AD at that would declare so ridiculously low??:rodekaart 
proof to the contrary would have me eating my words of course but without both sides story, i prefer to side with many thousands of glowing recommendations for a particular AD over a poster who only registered here to belittle them.

You sound like an intelligent person but your willing to believe the story of one poster with no history here as an enthusiast at all over the literally thousands of happy buyers of this particular AD??? Are they all wrong??? Is Oris wrong and so stupid to make such an "unethical" company a full AD??? Full AD status is not easily earned, especially from an esteemed company such as Oris. Come on mate, common sense must tell you the OP is a joker!

in addition the rest of the OP's story sounds so bogus, its ridiculous. i mean, seriously, giving a used and sized watch back to the courier guy???:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart give us all a break Biff!!

Cheers


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## Bruce-YVR

*Re: I am now confused....*



brett kenny said:


> Bruce, you are indeed correct, but mate, there are laws and there are laws.
> 
> declaring low value of an item to help a buyer avoid fees comes under j walking category of laws imo. in any case, this practice can only hurt the seller, so a buyer who holds a seller in less esteem because of this is confusing to me at least anyway. also, we have only one side of the story...personally i find it hard to believe a proper AD and hugely respected AD at that would declare so ridiculously low??:rodekaart
> proof to the contrary would have me eating my words of course but without both sides story, i prefer to side with many thousands of glowing recommendations for a particular AD over a poster who only registered here to belittle them.
> 
> You sound like an intelligent person but your willing to believe the story of one poster with no history here as an enthusiast at all over the literally thousands of happy buyers of this particular AD??? Are they all wrong??? Is Oris wrong and so stupid to make such an "unethical" company a full AD??? Full AD status is not easily earned, especially from an esteemed company such as Oris. Come on mate, common sense must tell you the OP is a joker!
> 
> in addition the rest of the OP's story sounds so bogus, its ridiculous. i mean, seriously, giving a used and sized watch back to the courier guy???:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart:rodekaart give us all a break Biff!!
> 
> Cheers


Brett... Yep! You are right...Thanks for pointing out the other issues... I think I take all posts too much face value. Indeed, this is only one sided story.... wish FoO would come out and point this person out...


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## brett kenny

*Re: I am now confused....*



Bruce-YVR said:


> Brett... Yep! You are right...Thanks for pointing out the other issues... I think I take all posts too much face value. Indeed, this is only one sided story.... wish FoO would come out and point this person out...


no worries Bruce! |>

sometimes its all too easy to take a poster at face value because we sort of want to believe its all a big brotherhood around here with people that share a common interest and each other looking out for the "family" so to speak, which it should be in a perfect world, and to a large degree it is.

But posters like Biff disrespect that open door trust policy with such outlandish BS stories expecting the "family" to believe them. o|o| And that is uncool:rodekaart

cheers mate


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## Guest

Biff1974 said:


> Rhyalus - Respect your opinion, not buying the spin.
> 
> FRIENDS OF ORIS did not lose a single dime in the transaction - yet that is.
> 
> Something to consider - if your spending thousands of dollars on a watch, $180 is really very little in the overall scheme of things. However, for FRIENDS OF ORIS TO OPERATE IN SUCH AN UNETHICAL, ILLEGAL MANNER AND THEN SHORT ME $180, completely unacceptable.
> 
> If your going to run a business unethically, simply note than on the advertising banners and front door of your store - "we are unethical, enter at your won risk" In doing so, everyone understands the playing field.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by read up, learn the rules??? We are not talking rocket science here, no brain surgery going on. Simple transaction is what this was. FRIENDS OF ORIS agree to do and provide X, I agree to do and provide Y. I did my part, they - not at all.
> 
> For the record - I work for a global manufacturing company. We have more than 34,000 employees and operations in 31 countries. We are constantly moving goods all over the world. I understand international trade.


I can see the reasoning behind the arguments from both sides here. I got caught out when making a purchase from USA before I understood all importing legislation. Being a private consumer purchaser I didn't realise that limitations were applicable. Importing any item into Australia with a value greater than AUD $1000 attracts government duty and taxes. I didn't realise this until Australian customs contacted me saying that they had my goods on hold and that I owed them some cash. This was my own mistake and I paid the fee, not small, so that I could take posession of the item. I purchased the item from oversea's due to the lower price, even after paying the taxes it was still a decent saving to me than buying locally. The main point here is that the company I bought from clearly stated that "Any local taxes or duties applicable to the item were the responsibilty of the buyer" and I accepted this. If FOO stated a price, knowing that it was going to another country, and never made mention of taxes or duties due then the buyer could expect that they were included in the final price of the item. Every international purchase I have made has come with the warning that local taxes and charges are the buyers concern. And no seller has ever understated the item price by any amount, let alone such a gross misunderstated amount. That shows a total lack of professionalism and integrity to me. And IMO any customer who has been "duped" should be compensated the full amount that they payed. For FOO to repay a lesser amount due to a changing currency means that they have profited due to that changing currency rate as the cash they received is now worth more than when they received it. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Rhyalus

Just a quick comment - FOO does not benefit from a currency shift unless they invest in currencies, which I doubt. They got paid in AUD - unless they convert back to USD or whatever, it is not meaningful to them.

I am not sure what the trends are with the AUD and the USD, but I am fairly sure they shift back and forth over time. Their prices are in AUD and I don't think that they change their pricing to keep track of the USD...

R


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## brett kenny

axelf71 said:


> I can see the reasoning behind the arguments from both sides here. I got caught out when making a purchase from USA before I understood all importing legislation. Being a private consumer purchaser I didn't realise that limitations were applicable. Importing any item into Australia with a value greater than AUD $1000 attracts government duty and taxes. I didn't realise this until Australian customs contacted me saying that they had my goods on hold and that I owed them some cash. This was my own mistake and I paid the fee, not small, so that I could take posession of the item. I purchased the item from oversea's due to the lower price, even after paying the taxes it was still a decent saving to me than buying locally. The main point here is that the company I bought from clearly stated that "Any local taxes or duties applicable to the item were the responsibilty of the buyer" and I accepted this. If FOO stated a price, knowing that it was going to another country, and never made mention of taxes or duties due then the buyer could expect that they were included in the final price of the item. Every international purchase I have made has come with the warning that local taxes and charges are the buyers concern. And no seller has ever understated the item price by any amount, let alone such a gross misunderstated amount. That shows a total lack of professionalism and integrity to me. And IMO any customer who has been "duped" should be compensated the full amount that they payed. For FOO to repay a lesser amount due to a changing currency means that they have profited due to that changing currency rate as the cash they received is now worth more than when they received it. Just my 2 cents worth.


im sorry axel but your wrong....its NOT the job of the seller to mention/ inform you that you may pay import taxes, customs etc, its YOUR job to be aware of YOUR local import requirements, after all you as the buyer are the importer! any assumptions you thus make are your own fault/ responsibility.

cheers


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## por44

FYI: If you have your watch shipped via the exporting countries Postal/EMS service it will be delivered by USPS - you'll see very little if any fees/duties/taxes. UPS & FedEx act as clearinghouse agents for US Customs and for the most part make/interpret the rules (Harmonized Tarriff Schedule 9102.12.80) as they see fit. The last time I looked there were about 75 pages on how a watch can be taxed in this US Customs publication). Note, that you write one check to UPS or FedEx - not the US Gov.


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## nerraw

So you found the video reviews on Friends of ORIS very helpful?
I think Smithy and his offsider do a great job and I don't think anyone else is doing ORIS reviews on the net.
They must be doing quite a bit to boost ORIS sales world wide.
After all they convinced you to buy an ORIS and even though you foolisly let the first one slip through your fingers you still ended up with one.
I've bought from Foof before and it was a great experience. They were very helpful and I think if you had to trust an online seller then you couldn't go past Friends of ORIS.
I once needed a spare link for one of my watches so I sent an email to Smithy and he sent me the link for free.
How can you beat that.
That's customer service.


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## Rakurai

Biff1974 said:


> Third - Had FRIENDS OF ORIS simply said, we will honor the price quoted, but you pay duties and taxes, then everyone - FRIENDS OF ORIS and customer - are absolutely clear of the expectations. That is NOT what occurred. FRIENDS OF ORIS said the price was a DELIVERED price to me. So, correct me if I am wrong, but the expectation is that the product will be delivered to my address for the price quoted - THIS MEANS DUTIES, TAXES AND FREIGHT PAID.


The FAQ on the FOO website clearly states that *"the purchaser is always responsible for local duties and taxes."* ... this is default and common sense with all international trade AFAIK.


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## timefleas

"Biff", At risk of awakening the dead dog that should have been allowed to pass away in peace weeks ago, you make a rather huge mountain out of a somewhat minuscule molehill.
To summarize your "plight": 
(1) you bought a watch (the gist of your first 4 paragraphs); 
(2) it was delayed in customs because the watch was undervalued by the seller; 
(3) you were refunded the amount you originally paid.
As others have pointed out: 
(4) the seller was actually trying to do you a favor, though they did err in not clearing this with you first; 
(5) the difference in exchange rates between when you purchased your watch and when you got your refund is really your responsibility, as it is part of the risk of buying outside of your home currency (I am surprised your credit card company reimbursed you for this).

I really don't see how this is an issue that should cause such righteous indignation nor do I see that this is an issue relevant to the Oris company, or its dealer network. The "problem" is simply a failure on the part of the seller to communicate to the buyer regarding what value to put on the outgoing watch. In addition, the amount of money "lost" in this transaction is rather small, and, it was actually the result of good, not bad, intentions.

As a buyer, and seller, of watches from and to many countries around the world, I enjoy the opportunity to save money on customs/import fees, and I appreciate sellers and buyers who share this understanding. There are strong arguments that suggest that purchases outside of one's area of domicile should not be taxed at all, as if you were buying in the USA for example, from one state while living in another. The reason you don't pay taxes in that situation is because you are exempt from them by living outside of the taxing jurisdiction. Many people think this should also be the way that non-commercial overseas purchases (i.e. private purchases by individuals for their own personal consumption) should be handled as well. I urge the moderator to close this thread, and move it where it should be, in the "watch deals" section, or possibly on over to the garbage bin. This is not an "Oris" issue.


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