# Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

*UPDATED: 7/27/19 (see below for update specifics)*

It took me a long time to find an affordable "true" GMT watch that I liked. It took even longer to find a list of available "true" GMTs. As there is no comprehensive one, I had to do a lot of reading in various forums and threads. The first issue was getting past the posts from those who didn't understand what a traveler's or "true" GMT was. So let's get that out of the way first:

*"True" GMT/Traveler's GMT* is defined as a mechanical watch with a GMT or dual time function that *has an hour-hand that can be set independently in one-hour increments* without hacking the movement. Simply having a GMT hand does NOT make it a "true" GMT. Being able to set the GMT hand independently does NOT make it a "true" GMT. *A watch with a GMT hand that can be set independently is a "standard" GMT, not a "true" GMT*.

So now that that's been settled, why is this difference important? First let me say that the use of "standard" and "true" to describe GMTs is not an industry standard, but they are common phrases...they are simply meant to distinguish between the two varieties. They are not meant to imply superiority or inferiority, but I do have a strong preference for "true" GMTs. Why? *A "standard" GMT simply indicates the time in a second time zone.* You can easily change the GMT hand to monitor whatever second time zone you'd like, but that is the extent of its function. If you traveled to another time zone with it, you'd have to change the hour/minute hands to the local time by hacking (stopping) the watch and moving the minute and hour hands forwards or backwards to the local time. But this also moves the GMT hand which now has to be reset to home time. And you've lost the accuracy of a correctly set watch by having to hack it to begin with. *A "true" GMT allows a traveler to quickly set local time by "jumping" the hour hand in one-hour increments to the local time without stopping/moving the minute and seconds hands or affecting the GMT hand*...the GMT hand remains on home time. This, to me, is a much more desirable feature than merely indicating a second time zone (which, quite frankly, any standard watch with a 12-hour rotating bezel could also do).

Anyway, "standard" GMTs are much more common (for some reason) while "true" GMTs can be be hard to find because of their relative scarcity and/or a person not knowing there are two types of GMT watches. The quintessential "true" GMTs are the Rolex GMT Master II (and Explorer II) and the Omega Seamaster GMT. They are the most well known and were one of the first ones to introduce this feature. They were, however, more money than I wanted to spend so I began looking for other "true" GMTs. *The image below contains most of the brands that I could confirm have "true" GMT movements.* I intentionally left off a few very pricey brands like *Patek Philippe, Glashutte Original, and Bvlgari* *that also make true GMTs*. Many of the manufacturers below have more than one model with "true" GMT movements but in most cases I only chose one or two to represent the brand. *Nomos, Oris, Tudor, IWC and most others have (or have had) multiple models with "true" GMT movements*. Others (like Breitling) have a couple of "true" GMT models but mostly offer "standard" GMTs in their line. The models shown below are either current offerings or ones available within the last 6 years or so.

Lastly, a truly "true" GMT (how's that for confusing nomenclature) is one where the date is tied to the local hour hand. Some have the date tied to the GMT hand. The difference is that on a truly "true" GMT the date is always the local date while the other type always shows the home date. This can be an issue for those traveling over several time zones but for most shouldn't be an issue. I don't which models below are which so I've chosen to ignore this difference unless I know for sure. I believe the Rolex and Omega change date with the hour hand while I know the Alpina Startimer Pilot Heritage (which I own) changes date when the GMT disc passes the "24". Those like the Rolex and Omega remain classified here as "true" GMTs while the Alpina is classified as a "traveler GMT". * I'm also including here worldtime watches with jumping hour hands as these display time for all 24 time zones simultaneously. It must be an actual worldtime watch (where the inner disc with city names rotates on its own) and be able to quick set the hour hand to adjust to local time.*

I hope the pics below help you find or decide on a 'true"/traveler GMT that's right for you. Some are discontinued but can be found used while others are current models as of this writing. Most of the ones below are not cheap but the offerings from Hamilton and Alpina can be had for around $1,000. * Please post any current or past models that I've not mentioned AND fit the bill of a "true"/traveler GMT.*

_7/27/19 Update: 1) Added 11 more watches to the list below; 2) Reclassified and added some "pricey" brands to description above; 3) Am including worldtime watches with jumping hour hands._


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## ShawntheSheep (Aug 16, 2017)

I suspect the difference is due to the price of the watch. "Standard" gmt are modified 3 hand movements, and "true" are made as gmt from the start. 

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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not mechanical, but some current Seiko Kinetic models are also "travelers" GMT function. And previously, watches with the 8f56 quartz movement, as well.

SBQJ017:









The "standard" or "business" GMT, with the separately adjustable GMT hand does serve a purpose. While the traveler's function is great for those on the move through different timezones, the standard is a better option for those staying put, but taking time where they do business or gave friends and family. A simple 12hr bezel may suit some just fine, too.


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## BBCDoc (Dec 23, 2008)

Seiko Kinetic has a true GMT model SUN025 at a very affordable price point










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## Time4Playnow (Jun 27, 2011)

Seiko SBDB011 Titanium Spring Drive diver, True GMT


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## Leon O (Aug 24, 2018)

Nice summary and well formatted. Thanks!!


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## COZ (Sep 7, 2011)

Great list. I made a similar list a couple years ago when I was looking for a 'true' GMT, didn't find what I liked so gave up the hunt. Your list is more up to date, like the Oris but a bit too big. The Dodane is interesting, may have to research that one.


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## whoischich (Sep 11, 2014)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*

The Seiko SUN067P1 is a great and affordable true GMT watch. Comes in a black version as well, the SUN069P1. Has a very handy world timer function too.


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## SethThomas (Oct 29, 2014)

Ulysse Nardin is famous for their +/- GMT


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## FullFlavorPike (Aug 9, 2017)

I learned something today.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

My Grand Seiko SBGE033 traveler's GMT. (I hate the term "true GMT" whether in quotes or not, because it implies others are false GMTs, or should be called something other than GMTs, or that others are inferior.)


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## Ziptie (Jun 25, 2016)

There's no reason for your definition to include the word "mechanical."

Every Citizen Eco-drive GMT that I've found is a true GMT. This includes very common models running the B876 or 877 movements such as the Nighthawk, and higher end movements such as the H116 that are atomic/radio controlled, have perpetual calendars, and many other features.

Because this thread demands pictures, here's a JDM Citizen Attesa ATD53-2862, cased in Duratect titanium I just received from Japan. Lovely watch, both more reliable than and a fraction of the price of the mechanicals.


















(Tragically, at 39mm this one wears a bit small on my 21cm wrist. Interested? PM me.)

One more practical note, many (most?) of the cheaper "business" GMTs are running the Ronda 515.24h movement, where the GMT hand is tied to the date. That's one of the fastest ways to check if a given watch is a "true" vs "business" model. I'm quite fond of mine, a Luminox P-38 Lightning (battery, not auto), with tritium hands and markers.










It's great for quickly checking the time zone my friends abroad are in, but I wear my Citizens to travel.


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## lemonde (Apr 13, 2014)

Thank you for this excellent post. Well done!


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## tiki5698 (Jul 6, 2016)

I think the 'true' is more like 'true' north vs magnetic north than actually true/false

Fantastic watch btw!



dbostedo said:


> My Grand Seiko SBGE033 traveler's GMT. (I hate the term "true GMT" whether in quotes or not, because it implies others are false GMTs, or should be called something other than GMTs, or that others are inferior


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

I’ll be the first to admit that I only buy GMTs for their looks and as such don’t mind if they’re “true” or not.


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## Dougiebaby (Jun 21, 2017)

Thanks for the information OP!

I just purchased my first "true" GMT 3 days ago. To be honest, I wish it had a quick date set feature vs. hour hand quick change.




























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## mnf67 (Jan 30, 2018)

This is a "true" GMT and at around $2500 used, one of the best values out there imho:


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## TwentiethCenturyFox (Mar 8, 2014)

Excellent work, a well put together thread.


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## RideCRF450 (Jun 30, 2009)

Informative post, thanks! Funny enough my Omega PO is a "true" GMT with advancing hour hand, but it is not a "Professional." They removed the designation because the bi-rotational bezel is not recommended for diving. For those who don't know, the reason for the uni-directional bezel is that if the bezel is bumped for any reason in the process of diving, it will only error in favor of the diver surfacing earlier. With a bi-directional diver, if you knock it out of place, it could cause the diver to be under for longer (though this shouldn't be your only timing device). Guess I'll never test my Omega's 2000ft rating...


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## Barge (Aug 20, 2010)

Imho the best GMT are the Ulysse Nardin GMT +/- series.


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## Mouse_at_Large (Sep 15, 2015)

For me, a "true" GMT will allow for the tracking of 3 timezones - first in 12 hour time via the main handset, the second in 24hr time via an independently 4th/GMT hand and read against a 24hr track on the dial or rehaut, the third in 24hr time via an adjustable 24hr bezel.

Personally speaking, and to cut out all the faff, I prefer 3 handed dual timers that don't require a 4th hand and only need a bezel adjustment to track a second timezone. For example the likes of a Glycine Airman purist (24hr dual time) or any 3 hander with a 12 hour adjustable bezel.


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## G550driver (Mar 10, 2013)

Excellent thread, thank you.

I'd just have issue with the true GMT's date being slaved to local time. Surely if your time reference is GMT then that should also be the reference for the date. Those engaged in the conduct of aviation and seafaring would certainly want it that way.

The Dornblueth Weltzeit is a true GMT, fortunately without a date so there can be no argument that it is anchored to the wrong reference ?


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Thanks for all the positive feedback everyone! 

Please continue to add any brands I haven't mentioned (like the Dornblueth Weltzeit). I'll eventually add pics to the original post for any "true" gmt mechanical watches that cost approximately $10,000 or less.


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## BBCDoc (Dec 23, 2008)

Another interesting GMT is the JeanRichard 2 Timezone. Similar to Ulysse Nardin pusher adjusted time zone.

I was looking at these a while back, unfortunately rare as hens teeth in Asia.










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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Not sure I'd consider the Alpina GMT complication to be a proper Traveller GMT considering the local (12hr) hour hand only jumps in the forward direction and the date complication is tied to the non-jumping (GMT) hand. If you happen to be travelling to a timezone that is 5+ hours different from your home time, that means your date will be changing over in hours when you'd actually be awake, and may be incorrect to the local date for a significant part of the day. A proper Traveller's GMT has the local hour jump both directions and the date stays tied to the local (12hr) hand. The Alpina complication is implemented similar to the "caller" GMT complications like the 2893 in that it's just a modified day/date complication that replaces the day with a 24-hr hand. Alpina did some interesting modifications to swap the rotation rate of the jumping and non-jumping hour hands, so the jumping hand now rotates once every 12 hours and the non-jumping every 24, but it still suffers from similar drawbacks that a caller GMT has.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

MX793 said:


> Not sure I'd consider the Alpina GMT complication to be a proper Traveller GMT considering the local (12hr) hour hand only jumps in the forward direction and the date complication is tied to the non-jumping (GMT) hand. If you happen to be travelling to a timezone that is 5+ hours different from your home time, that means your date will be changing over in hours when you'd actually be awake, and may be incorrect to the local date for a significant part of the day. A proper Traveller's GMT has the local hour jump both directions and the date stays tied to the local (12hr) hand. The Alpina complication is implemented similar to the "caller" GMT complications like the 2893 in that it's just a modified day/date complication that replaces the day with a 24-hr hand. Alpina did some interesting modifications to swap the rotation rate of the jumping and non-jumping hour hands, so the jumping hand now rotates once every 12 hours and the non-jumping every 24, but it still suffers from similar drawbacks that a caller GMT has.


Agreed, but it's a bit more complicated than that. One could argue that a "true" GMT (whose date changes with the hour hand) is nothing more than a modified day/date wheel as well. The fact that the jumping hour hand only turns in one direction is to allow quick setting of the date in the other direction. Since this is the case, the hour hand doesn't (nor should it) change the date.

While you're technically correct, I prefer to think of it as a "true" GMT that displays home date instead of local date. Some, like the Nomos, don't even have a date display. Also, I'm not sure if Alpina is the only one that does it that way. Either way, it's still a lot more useful for traveling than the way a standard GMT watch operates.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

robi1138 said:


> Agreed, but it's a bit more complicated than that. One could argue that a "true" GMT (whose date changes with the hour hand) is nothing more than a modified day/date wheel as well. The fact that the jumping hour hand only turns in one direction is to allow quick setting of the date in the other direction. Since this is the case, the hour hand doesn't (nor should it) change the date.


A "true" GMT with jumping local hour is not a "modified" day/date movement as a 2893 or Alpina AL-550/555. On something like the Omega GMT movement, the date is tied to the hour hand in the same way that it would be on a non-jumping-hour watch. When the hour hand crosses midnight, the date changes over. On something like a 2893 ("Caller" GMT), the GMT hand is driven by the hour hand in the same way as a day wheel, but the gearing has been changed so it moves one rotation every 24 hours instead of 1/7th. The "jumping" of the GMT hand, and the fact that it only moves forward, is because the set function is a re-purposed day wheel quickset. On the Alpina movement, which is sort of the inverse of a 2893, they re-geared the day wheel to run at a 12-hour cadence instead of 24, to serve as the local hour, and made the regular hour wheel slower to a 24 hr cadence. The "jumping" of the local hour is, again, the same mechanism as the day quickset on a 2836 or similar day/date movement, which is why it only works in one direction and why it doesn't drive the the date wheel (as the date and day wheels on a day/date can be moved independently). On both the "Caller" GMTs and the Alpina version, they tinker with the gear ratios but the overall wheel-train design is the same as a 3-hand day/date as far as what wheels are connected to what. A proper traveler GMT has a different architecture. And on a proper traveler GMT, the date wheel being driven by the hour hand means that, when you cross over the international date line whilst jet-setting across the Pacific, your date will update with the time to be correct as well.



> While you're technically correct, I prefer to think of it as a "true" GMT that displays home date instead of local date. Some, like the Nomos, don't even have a date display. Also, I'm not sure if Alpina is the only one that does it that way. Either way, it's still a lot more useful for traveling than the way a standard GMT watch operates.


If you don't care that the date is showing "home" date, one could as easily use a 2893 "caller" GMT and use the 24-hr hand to track local time and leave the 12-hr hand to track home time. You'd have your date fixed to home, as with the Alpina, and you could jump the 24-hr hand without stopping the seconds hand.


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

I use my Gshock GW5000 with time zones hahhaha 
Also consider the OCW S100
It has all the benefits of a GMT Watch.


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## MissileExpert (Mar 18, 2018)

Not so sure I'd classify a world timer (Montblanc) as a "true" GMT. It may have a jumping hour hand, but in the strict sense, it's not a GMT. If you want to include World Timer's, add Breitling's Navitimer 8 Unitime World Time to the list.

It's also worth pointing out that the Seiko 9F (quartz) GMT's are true GMTs. 

The French Dodane Type 23 GMT is a true GMT. And it's a very pretty watch.


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## warsh (May 22, 2017)

Great thread!
The new GS HAQ GMTs are true GMTs and great pieces










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## warsh (May 22, 2017)

Barge said:


> Imho the best GMT are the Ulysse Nardin GMT +/- series.


Love, love, love that salmon dial!! If you are ever looking to move it on, hope you'll let me know!

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## Jazzmaster (Apr 23, 2011)

The nice thing about the UN Dual Time is that both the hour hand and the date are capable of being independently set either forward or backward...









Another favorite is the GS SBGE201 and its cousins (this one is the SBGE021) -- the hour hand can be set independently, and, thanks to the sapphire bezel, the GMT function can be read easily in the dark, as well...


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## rfortson (Feb 18, 2012)

First, I reject you defining for me what a "true" GMT watch is. I appreciate your definition for you but both styles track GMT.

Seems like you want to track traveler's GMT watches and your list does that. No need to go on about "true" this or that. Too many absolutes already right now in the world.

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## Raza (Jul 21, 2010)

I'll have the Tudor Black Bay GMT, please and thank you.


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

warsh said:


> Great thread!
> The new GS HAQ GMTs are true GMTs and great pieces
> 
> 
> ...


I really wanted the LE but it was too much money and not something that you can just buy when you're ready.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

rfortson said:


> First, I reject you defining for me what a "true" GMT watch is. I appreciate your definition for you but both styles track GMT.
> 
> Seems like you want to track traveler's GMT watches and your list does that. No need to go on about "true" this or that. Too many absolutes already right now in the world.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I didn't define it...others have. And you'll notice I put true in quotes to make that clear. In addition, the title of the thread says "true"/traveler's GMT

So lighten up.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

MissileExpert said:


> Not so sure I'd classify a world timer (Montblanc) as a "true" GMT. It may have a jumping hour hand, but in the strict sense, it's not a GMT. If you want to include World Timer's, add Breitling's Navitimer 8 Unitime World Time to the list.


I don't disagree with you but, to me, the most important features of a "true"/traveler's GMT are being able to tell the time in 2 different time zones, and having a jumping hour hand to adjust local time when traveling. Since the Montblanc has both features, I included it. My Ball Diver Worldtime is a nice worldtimer but doesn't qualify due to the lack of a jumping hour hand.

I was going to include the Breitling Navitimer but instead simply made the comment that some of the manufacturer's shown had multiple models. I could've added other Rolex, IWC, Omega, and Alpina models but there's only so much time I could spend this ;-)


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

MX793 said:


> A "true" GMT with jumping local hour is not a "modified" day/date movement as a 2893 or Alpina AL-550/555. On something like the Omega GMT movement, the date is tied to the hour hand in the same way that it would be on a non-jumping-hour watch. When the hour hand crosses midnight, the date changes over. On something like a 2893 ("Caller" GMT), the GMT hand is driven by the hour hand in the same way as a day wheel, but the gearing has been changed so it moves one rotation every 24 hours instead of 1/7th. The "jumping" of the GMT hand, and the fact that it only moves forward, is because the set function is a re-purposed day wheel quickset. On the Alpina movement, which is sort of the inverse of a 2893, they re-geared the day wheel to run at a 12-hour cadence instead of 24, to serve as the local hour, and made the regular hour wheel slower to a 24 hr cadence. The "jumping" of the local hour is, again, the same mechanism as the day quickset on a 2836 or similar day/date movement, which is why it only works in one direction and why it doesn't drive the the date wheel (as the date and day wheels on a day/date can be moved independently). On both the "Caller" GMTs and the Alpina version, they tinker with the gear ratios but the overall wheel-train design is the same as a 3-hand day/date as far as what wheels are connected to what. A proper traveler GMT has a different architecture. And on a proper traveler GMT, the date wheel being driven by the hour hand means that, when you cross over the international date line whilst jet-setting across the Pacific, your date will update with the time to be correct as well.
> 
> If you don't care that the date is showing "home" date, one could as easily use a 2893 "caller" GMT and use the 24-hr hand to track local time and leave the 12-hr hand to track home time. You'd have your date fixed to home, as with the Alpina, and you could jump the 24-hr hand without stopping the seconds hand.


I agree that showing the local date is preferable to showing home date (though it may not be for all). And if that's what defines a "true" gmt, fine (though no one has explicitly said that) but to me a "true"/traveler's GMT has two features:

1) The ability to show time in two different time zones
2) The ability to jump the hour hand without hacking the movement to set local time

How this is achieved is the manufacturer's decision. The Rolex 3185 and 3186 GMT movements are based on a standard 3135. The Omega 1128 GMT movement is a modified ETA 2892-A2. So obviously, neither manufacturer reinvented the wheel when developing their "true" GMT movements. They modified existing standard 3-hand movements. How did they do this? I'm not sure, but I have read that the Rolex 3185 and 3186 are "both basically 3135 movements with changes to the date". I don't know this to be 100% true, but the comment is from a watch repairer (watchdoctor.biz). Either way, every "true" GMT movement seems to be a standard movement with a modification made to the date or date wheel. Even if this isn't the case, the results are the same except for which date is displayed...home or local. Arguments can be made for which one should take precedence (and I agree that local date is the proper way to do it) but I don't think that disqualifies the Alpina from being a "true" GMT. Well, certainly not a traveler GMT anyway...which was the point of this thread.

As far as using a "caller" GMT (or standard GMT, as I call it) for travel by using the GMT hand as local time and the main hands as home time, that seems less than ideal. Actually, it seems quite ridiculous to expect anyone to practice this method as no one looks at the standard hands of a watch and makes the leap to remember that that's home time and not the local time.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Seiko SUN023 Kinetic GMT has a unirotating dive bezel.



















SUN043


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

In defense of the Alpina 4 GMT movement, there are many industries and professions where it is needed to know GMT date:

Aviation, Merchant Marine shipping and the Military all use GMT/UTC as they all operate worldwide.

As ship's officer, When I fill out all my weather reports, investigations, logbooks, etc. I am required to use UTC time * and Date*









BTW, didn't pay over $400 USD new for any of these, and one was under $300 new. Good deals for a Swiss Made travelers GMT.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> In defense of the Alpina 4 GMT movement, there are many industries and professions where it is needed to know GMT date:
> 
> Aviation, Merchant Marine shipping and the Military all use GMT/UTC as they all operate worldwide.
> 
> ...


Good point...on the GMT date requirement and the price. I thought I got a good deal for getting my Alpina Startimer Heritage for $700 from an AD but you got great deals on yours. I looked long and hard at the Alpiner 4 GMT a while back but ultimately decided against it simply because of the degrees being on the bezel instead of something more useful to me. They are really great looking though...great choice!

The price is really good too. After extensive searches, I didn't find much other than Alpina and Hamilton that had street prices of around $1,000. Most of the watches on my list are at least double that...or far more. Kind of a shame.

Here's a wrist shot of my Alpina on a rubber strap I bought separately and one with an aftermarket leather strap:


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> . . . to me a "true"/traveler's GMT has two features:
> 
> 1) The ability to show time in two different time zones
> 2) The ability to jump the hour hand without hacking the movement to set local time
> ...


While less than ideal, it's how the original 6542 & 1675 GMT-Masters, & other pilot watches with 12-hour & 24-hour bezels, were (& still are) used. As yankeeexpress points out & as indicated by the names of the watches, the original intended users of GMT & Airmen watches set their watches to GMT (now UTC) time & tracked local time using the bezel. Nothing "ridiculous" about it as it's not exactly rocket science, just a matter of convenience. I get it, I hate doing unnecessary arithmetic, but it's still just arithmetic.

I know you didn't invent the terminology (& I applaud your attempt to provide a guide to buyers), but the "true" in "true GMT" deserves to be in quotes because otherwise there was no "true GMT" before 1981, which is "truly" ridiculous. "Travelers GMT" is a better term for the jumping 12-hour hand. I think we should reserve "true GMT" (or maybe "purist GMT") for old-school watches that have the 12-hour & 24-hour hand slaved together or just have a 24-hour hand (like the Glycine Airman) + a 24-hour bezel.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

robi1138 said:


> *"True" GMT/Traveler's GMT* is defined as a mechanical watch with a GMT or dual time function that *has an hour-hand that can be set independently in one-hour increments* without hacking the movement. Simply having a GMT hand does NOT make it a "true" GMT. Being able to set the GMT hand independently does NOT make it a "true" GMT. *A watch with a GMT hand that can be set independently is a "standard" GMT, not a "true" GMT*.


None of these assertions is universally true; they are true only for your universe. The first GMT watches, all of which pre-date you as well as these definitions, would have failed these so-called definitions. Calling something personally "true" because it is personally and individually "preferable" does not make it true, and there is no credibility here. You simply prefer traveller's GMTs, and have decided personally to remove the your definition of "GMT" from other watches whose methodds of adjustment (in operation they are often identical) do not perfectly fit yours.

In other words, _the_ perfect internet forum post!"


> So now that that's been settled


Lol.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

dbostedo said:


> My Grand Seiko SBGE033 traveler's GMT. (I hate the term "true GMT" whether in quotes or not, because it implies others are false GMTs, or should be called something other than GMTs, or that others are inferior.)
> 
> View attachment 14324001


Agreed. I find it a hoot when people present words with their own personal definitions and parrot them as if they are accepted facts. But then, that's what the internet is so brilliant at!


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

MissileExpert said:


> Not so sure I'd classify a world timer (Montblanc) as a "true" GMT. It may have a jumping hour hand, but in the strict sense, it's not a GMT.


There is no strict sense because there is no definition. Or if this doesn't fly, let's say my personal definition is different to yours, therefore I would classify it differently. Actually I wouldn't classify it at all, because I don't feel the need to put everything in a box 

It's like saying so-and-so watch is only a "true" chrono because it has a flyback, or an hour counter, or some other personal individual preference which one naturally assumes that everyone else will share, and if they don't, then they should.

The first watches were called GMT (GMT isn't even a universal benchmark any more; it's UTC) simply to indicate that the owner could read off another timezone instantly. That is all. Personal definitions based on additional specifications, differences in method of adjustment and so on, are worthless to others.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> ...Alpina Startimer Heritage for $700 from an AD but you got great deals on yours. I looked long and hard at the Alpiner 4 GMT a while back but ultimately decided against it simply because of the degrees being on the bezel instead of something more useful to me.
> 
> Here's a wrist shot of my Alpina on a rubber strap I bought separately and one with an aftermarket leather strap:
> 
> ...


The degree bezel is the only reason I don't have an Alpina 4 GMT at the moment.

I tried on an Alpina Startimer Heritage Pilot (blue dial) at a local jeweler. Thought it would be too big based on the case measurement, but a short L2L spec and the large bezel means it wears smaller. Extremely tempting... but... 23mm lug width? And as much as I like the internal bezel which can be rotated for a third time zone, I still wish it had 24hr numeric indices on the internal scale as well. But really, this is just nit-picking to stop me from picking one up, like, tomorrow. Nice watch! And one of the better deals on a mechanical travelers GMT around.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

One-Seventy said:


> None of these assertions is universally true; they are true only for your universe. The first GMT watches, all of which pre-date you as well as these definitions, would have failed these so-called definitions. Calling something personally "true" because it is personally and individually "preferable" does not make it true, and there is no credibility here. You simply prefer traveller's GMTs, and have decided personally to remove the your definition of "GMT" from other watches whose methodds of adjustment (in operation they are often identical) do not perfectly fit yours.
> 
> In other words, _the_ perfect internet forum post!"
> 
> Lol.


I didn't assert these terms are universally true, I'm merely parroting the terms already laid forth in the forums and elsewhere. "True" GMTs (along with traveler GMTs) are currently described on forums and watch articles as I've described them. If you don't like the terms, I don't know what to tell you. I concede that the Alpina is more of a traveler GMT while the Rolex, Omega, and others are of the "true" GMT variety but they still both fall in the same general class when compared to what I call standard GMTs. The fact that I prefer "true" GMTs has no bearing whatsoever on my use of terms...these terms were used a long time before I knew what they were.

So your sarcasm notwithstanding,* I didn't start this thread to get into a semantics debate with you or anyone else. If you want to address semantics, start your own thread. This thread was started to give interested people access to a list of known "true"/traveler/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-them GMTs*


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

One-Seventy said:


> Agreed. I find it a hoot when people present words with their own personal definitions and parrot them as if they are accepted facts. But then, that's what the internet is so brilliant at!


And your brilliance seems to lie in attributing generally used terms to me, missing the entire point of a thread, and being a sarcastic troll...kudos!


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

One-Seventy said:


> There is no strict sense because there is no definition. Or if this doesn't fly, let's say my personal definition is different to yours, therefore I would classify it differently. Actually I wouldn't classify it at all, because I don't feel the need to put everything in a box
> 
> It's like saying so-and-so watch is only a "true" chrono because it has a flyback, or an hour counter, or some other personal individual preference which one naturally assumes that everyone else will share, and if they don't, then they should.
> 
> The first watches were called GMT (GMT isn't even a universal benchmark any more; it's UTC) simply to indicate that the owner could read off another timezone instantly. That is all. Personal definitions based on additional specifications, differences in method of adjustment and so on, are worthless to others.


Again, you've contributed absolutely nothing here other than engaging anyone who'll listen to your ballyhooing in a semantics debate.

Perhaps you should start a national campaign to change the terms have others have come up with.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> The degree bezel is the only reason I don't have an Alpina 4 GMT at the moment.
> 
> I tried on an Alpina Startimer Heritage Pilot (blue dial) at a local jeweler. Thought it would be too big based on the case measurement, but a short L2L spec and the large bezel means it wears smaller. Extremely tempting... but... 23mm lug width? And as much as I like the internal bezel which can be rotated for a third time zone, I still wish it had 24hr numeric indices on the internal scale as well. But really, this is just nit-picking to stop me from picking one up, like, tomorrow. Nice watch! And one of the better deals on a mechanical travelers GMT around.


Thank you. FWIW, both of those straps shown in my pics are 24mm and fit fine. YMMV of course.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> FWIW, both of those straps shown in my pics are 24mm and fit fine.


Well that is very not helpful in trying to justify not buying one...


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> While less than ideal, it's how the original 6542 & 1675 GMT-Masters, & other pilot watches with 12-hour & 24-hour bezels, were (& still are) used. As yankeeexpress points out & as indicated by the names of the watches, the original intended users of GMT & Airmen watches set their watches to GMT (now UTC) time & tracked local time using the bezel. Nothing "ridiculous" about it as it's not exactly rocket science, just a matter of convenience. I get it, I hate doing unnecessary arithmetic, but it's still just arithmetic.
> 
> I know you didn't invent the terminology (& I applaud your attempt to provide a guide to buyers), but the "true" in "true GMT" deserves to be in quotes because otherwise there was no "true GMT" before 1981, which is "truly" ridiculous. "Travelers GMT" is a better term for the jumping 12-hour hand. I think we should reserve "true GMT" (or maybe "purist GMT") for old-school watches that have the 12-hour & 24-hour hand slaved together or just have a 24-hour hand (like the Glycine Airman) + a 24-hour bezel.


Thank you for being polite with your criticism.

I know that "true" GMT is a bastard term and I tried to explain in my original post that it was not meant to imply superiority. And I did go to a lot of trouble of putting quotes around the word true every single time I used the term "true" GMT. That being said, it is the most common way of describing the Rolex GMT Master II style of GMT, be it on this forum, other forums, or watch articles. It is the phrase i used to Google search the topic and what got the most results...and still does. Traveler's GMT is now being used as well but still takes a back seat to "true" GMT. I don't have a problem with the phrase because I think it is the most sophisticated type, the most useful type, and the coolest type of GMT watch...but that's just me...and that's not why I use the phrase but it is the reason I don't have a problem with it.

And I do (now) make a distinction between a "true" GMT (Rolex) vs a traveler's GMT (Alpina). Sure, it's a little disheartening that the one I own isn't called a "true" GMT but who cares? I knew exactly how the Alpina worked in relation to how the Rolex worked before I bought it. I didn't care then and I don't care now. If my watch isn't what's come to be known as a "true" GMT, then so be it.

I would love it if all of the terms were settled and took into account all types of GMT, but they're not. I tried to think of a few politically correct terms to call each and every type of GMT while I was typing this post but realized it would be pointless as I'm sure someone would have an issue with them anyway. I used the terms because, for better or worse, that's what they're being referred to as and I wanted people to be able to find the thread easily using the search function.

Anyway, thanks again for your comments.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Well that is very not helpful in trying to justify not buying one...


LOL...sorry b-)


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

robi1138 said:


> I didn't assert these terms are universally true, I'm merely parroting the terms already laid forth in the forums and elsewhere. "True" GMTs (along with traveler GMTs) are currently described on forums and watch articles as I've described them. If you don't like the terms, I don't know what to tell you. I concede that the Alpina is more of a traveler GMT while the Rolex, Omega, and others are of the "true" GMT variety but they still both fall in the same general class when compared to what I call standard GMTs. The fact that I prefer "true" GMTs has no bearing whatsoever on my use of terms...these terms were used a long time before I knew what they were.
> 
> So your sarcasm notwithstanding,* I didn't start this thread to get into a semantics debate with you or anyone else. If you want to address semantics, start your own thread. This thread was started to give interested people access to a list of known "true"/traveler/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-them GMTs*


Words mean things. If you didn't want a semantics debate, your original post was not worded to forestall it, though it could easily have been. Go back and read it from the perspective of a person who does _not_ have your preference.

By the way, I share that preference.

Why do you mention the GMT Master II but avoid mentioning the UN and other brands at that price point? Have you priced GMT Master II's lately? I can get a UN dual-time watch for less than the Rolex any day of the week.

Now that we have that settled, IWC makes a classic traveler's GMT using a Pellaton-designed set of parts, which they also use in their world timer (which, in their case, is a GMT watch with a 24-hour ring instead of a 24-hour hand-that could start an argument about what constitutes a "true" world timer-ha!). Is IWC too expensive (even though the Rolex is at least as expensive)? The same mechanism is used in Baume & Mercier Capeland models-the middle stem position sets the 12-hour hand in even hours and also the date, forward and backward, without hacking:










Just to finish off, here's a watch that calls itself an Aerospace GMT. It was made in the 60's, when the 24-hour hand was still a novelty.










The two hours hands are slaved together.

Rick "we don't have to use terms than don't mean what we intend, even if others use them" Denney


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Just going to throw this out there...both of my Omega (Grey Side & Globemaster) have jump hour hands. I suspect that's a standard feature for any of the co-axial movements, or at least the modern ones. 

Granted, neither watch has a GMT function - although I've heard it suggested the hour & minute totalizer on the Grey Side could be used for that purpose (assuming one started the chronograph function at 12pm/am for whatever time zone they cared to track, which is an utter hack, but a potentially useful one) - but this suggests that any modern co-axial that has a GMT function, regardless of model line, is a *true* GMT watch.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> Thank you for being polite with your criticism.
> 
> I know that "true" GMT is a bastard term and I tried to explain in my original post that it was not meant to imply superiority. And I did go to a lot of trouble of putting quotes around the word true every single time I used the term "true" GMT. That being said, it is the most common way of describing the Rolex GMT Master II style of GMT, be it on this forum, other forums, or watch articles. It is the phrase i used to Google search the topic and what got the most results...and still does. Traveler's GMT is now being used as well but still takes a back seat to "true" GMT. I don't have a problem with the phrase because I think it is the most sophisticated type, the most useful type, and the coolest type of GMT watch...but that's just me...and that's not why I use the phrase but it is the reason I don't have a problem with it.
> 
> ...


No worries, it seems you're just trying to be helpful & no good deed goes unpunished, especially with subcultures that attract as many nerds as watches.

I have no idea how/why the independently adjustable hour hand (IAHH) on a minority of GMT watches became "true", but my guess it that it's because most of the people posting online about GMT watches are relatively young [insert older person yelling "get off my lawn" GIF here] & don't even realize that it wasn't introduced until 1981, which might as well be during WWI for the kids, &/or are most familiar w/Rolex. My theory is that Rolex came up w/it for non-pilot users who weren't used to using GMT/UTC & wanted to use the 12-hour hand for local time, like traveling businessmen, & the increasing number of travelers who wanted to track a 3rd time zone.

That said, the IAHH is a convenient feature (& worth having even when you're not traveling, e.g., for daylights savings time adjustments) & you may want expand your guide to include a discussion of watches that have IAHHs, but aren't marketed as travel or GMT watches. An example would include a lot of great quartz models (Citizen Chronomasters), per Ziptie, &, per Alysandir, some Omega Co-axials.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

[Duplicate].


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Rdenney said:


> Words mean things. If you didn't want a semantics debate, your original post was not worded to forestall it, though it could easily have been. Go back and read it from the perspective of a person who does _not_ have your preference.
> 
> By the way, I share that preference.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I really don't care about any opinions at this point about my semantics.

Now that that's settled, read again why I didn't mention UN. I mentioned Rolex because they invented the "call it whatever you like" GMT.

And to finish off, your Aerospace GMT has no place in this thread.

:roll:


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## warsh (May 22, 2017)

imaCoolRobot said:


> I really wanted the LE but it was too much money and not something that you can just buy when you're ready.


I see the LEs out there for sale from time to time, so it's possible if you don't mind a lightly used one....

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Alysandir said:


> Just going to throw this out there...both of my Omega (Grey Side & Globemaster) have jump hour hands. I suspect that's a standard feature for any of the co-axial movements, or at least the modern ones.
> 
> Granted, neither watch has a GMT function - although I've heard it suggested the hour & minute totalizer on the Grey Side could be used for that purpose (assuming one started the chronograph function at 12pm/am for whatever time zone they cared to track, which is an utter hack, but a potentially useful one) - but this suggests that any modern co-axial that has a GMT function, regardless of model line, is a *true* GMT watch.
> 
> ...


As I said, I have 2 criteria for a "true"/traveler GMT watch (2 times zones & jump hour hand) but it's interesting to know that non-GMT Omegas have the jump hour function...thanks.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> No worries, it seems you're just trying to be helpful & no good deed goes unpunished, especially with subcultures that attract as many nerds as watches.
> 
> I have no idea how/why the independently adjustable hour hand (IAHH) on a minority of GMT watches became "true", but my guess it that it's because most of the people posting online about GMT watches are relatively young [insert older person yelling "get off my lawn" GIF here] & don't even realize that it wasn't introduced until 1981, which might as well be during WWI for the kids, &/or are most familiar w/Rolex. My theory is that Rolex came up w/it for non-pilot users who weren't used to using GMT/UTC & wanted to use the 12-hour hand for local time, like traveling businessmen, & the increasing number of travelers who wanted to track a 3rd time zone.
> 
> That said, the IAHH is a convenient feature (& worth having even when you're not traveling, e.g., for daylights savings time adjustments) & you may want expand your guide to include a discussion of watches that have IAHHs, but aren't marketed as travel or GMT watches. An example would include a lot of great quartz models (Citizen Chronomasters) &, per Alysandir, some Omega Co-axials.


Yeah, seriously. Look at the plethora of nonsense I've had to contend with by merely compiling a list of "true"/traveler GMTs for other people to reference...yeesh. But I don't care...bring it on...I'll have a response. And it's not about defending my preference either...since starting this thread I've re-categorized my own "true" GMT in to the traveler GMT category (as it's not quite the same as other "true" GMTs). But I am through debating semantics.

Anyhow, my theory of how "true" GMT came into use was because I think more people think of GMT watches as handy for traveling, rather than keeping track of a second time zone from home. I could be mistaken on this but that's what I thought a GMT was at first. Not to mention that it's easy enough to keep track of a second time zone (especially a relatively close one) with a non GMT watch that has a rotating 12-hour bezel...or a 24-hour watch with a 24 hour rotating bezel. A "true" GMT on the other hand is much handier for a traveler. And since Rolex popularized it, it became distinguishable from other GMTs as a "true" GMT. Again, a bastard term that I'm happy to do away with if another term is ever standardized. I'm sure a Rolex or Omega GMT watch owner coined the term, lol.

Oh, forgot to mention...thanks for the tip (and from another poster, too) about non GMTs with JAHH...was not aware of them. Definitely a handy feature to have


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## fastfras (Jul 23, 2014)

My sbcj019, jumping hour hand ( forward and back) combined with a perpetual calendar.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

fastfras said:


> My sbcj019, jumping hour hand ( forward and back) combined with a perpetual calendar.


Love these. Same 8F56 movement as my SBQJ017. Except Alpinist pricing has recently shifted dramatically upwards and I've seen silly pricing for used examples of this model. Also a bit tall for my tastes, but damn fine looking watch, for sure.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> . . .
> 
> Anyhow, my theory of how "true" GMT came into use was because I think more people think of GMT watches as handy for traveling, rather than keeping track of a second time zone from home. I could be mistaken on this but that's what I thought a GMT was at first. Not to mention that it's easy enough to keep track of a second time zone (especially a relatively close one) with a non GMT watch that has a rotating 12-hour bezel...or a 24-hour watch with a 24 hour rotating bezel. A "true" GMT on the other hand is much handier for a traveler. And since Rolex popularized it, it became distinguishable from other GMTs as a "true" GMT. Again, a bastard term that I'm happy to do away with if another term is ever standardized. I'm sure a Rolex or Omega GMT watch owner coined the term, lol.
> 
> Oh, forgot to mention...thanks for the tip (and from another poster, too) about non GMTs with JAHH...was not aware of them. Definitely a handy feature to have


You're welcome. However, per my 1st post on the thread, you can easily look up the history of the 2 "OG" GMT watches, the Glycine Airman of 1953 & the Rolex 6542 GMT-Master of 1954, & see that they were intended for commercial pilots, not travelers per se, & since most pilots were/are ex-military, they were very familiar w/both the 24-hour time scale & GMT/UTC/Zulu time. For them, using the bezel to track local time was natural & intuitive. In the 1960s, other companies like Bulova, Seiko, Zodiac, & Ollech & Wajs made more affordable watches that worked just like the Airmen & 6542 & 1675s GMT-Masters, & they were very popular with military pilots (who are paid much less than airline pilots). It was only much later, when air travel became common among civilians (at least businessmen & rich people who became the "jetset") who were less familiar w/24-hour time, that I think Rolex saw an opportunity/need to cater to that group of users. Even after the introduction of the GMT-Master II, Rolex kept making an old-style GMT-Master (1675 & then the 16700) for their traditional clientele until 1999.


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## FarmKid (Jul 12, 2018)

I wonder what time it is in Stockholm? Ok, now I know!


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

robi1138 said:


> ...Look at the plethora of nonsense...


Eh... one man's "plethora of nonsense" is another man's "interesting forum content". :-d


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## TheWhiteRabbit (Aug 3, 2018)

no pics of the explr II ??? what the..........
gotta fix that:


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

TheWhiteRabbit said:


> no pics of the explr II ??? what the..........
> gotta fix that:
> View attachment 14330637


I know, I know. Should've included it but as I said, I didn't want to spend my whole life putting every single model on this thread as long as the brand was represented. If/when I go back to modify the pics, it'll be the first one I add.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> You're welcome. However, per my 1st post on the thread, you can easily look up the history of the 2 "OG" GMT watches, the Glycine Airman of 1953 & the Rolex 6542 GMT-Master of 1954, & see that they were intended for commercial pilots, not travelers per se, & since most pilots were/are ex-military, they were very familiar w/both the 24-hour time scale & GMT/UTC/Zulu time. For them, using the bezel to track local time was natural & intuitive. In the 1960s, other companies like Bulova, Seiko, Zodiac, & Ollech & Wajs made more affordable watches that worked just like the Airmen & 6542 & 1675s GMT-Masters, & they were very popular with military pilots (who are paid much less than airline pilots). It was only much later, when air travel became common among civilians (at least businessmen & rich people who became the "jetset") who were less familiar w/24-hour time, that I think Rolex saw an opportunity/need to cater to that group of users. Even after the introduction of the GMT-Master II, Rolex kept making an old-style GMT-Master (1675 & then the 16700) for their traditional clientele until 1999.


I understand what you're saying and I am aware of the general history of GMT and GMT-style watches and their use in the military. I just meant that Rolex popularized their "true" GMT style of movement with the average person. Rolex is probably the most recognized watch brand in the world outside of the WIS world so it's only natural that if their GMT became popular outside of military circles for it's traveling benefits, it became known as the "true" GMT movement. It's the most beneficial to the average Joe and it's from the most popular brand in the world.

"True" GMT really is an unfortunate term and I do regret that that's how it's known but I don't regret using it here because, unfortunately, that IS how it's known.

I'd love to categorize all the different styles of GMT watches (starting with the originals) with you if you're interested and simply assigning them names like Type 1, Type 2, etc...though I'm sure some here would have problems with that as well. "How dare you call THAT one Type 2...it doesn't take a back seat to anyone!"

;-)


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## TheWhiteRabbit (Aug 3, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> I know, I know. Should've included it but as I said, I didn't want to spend my whole life putting every single model on this thread as long as the brand was represented. If/when I go back to modify the pics, it'll be the first one I add.


HAHAHA ! its all good! i was just using this as an opportunity for a gratuitous photo op! (haven't had a chance to post this particular pic anywhere else on WUS yet and i kinda like how it came out so....BAM):-d:-d:-d


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## Tohono Rat (Apr 23, 2018)

The one to rule them all: https://www.glashuette-original.com/collection/senator/senator-cosmopolite/1-89-02-03-02-01









35 time zones including those offset by 15 minutes and 30 minutes. You can play with it at that link


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

robi1138 said:


> Honestly, I really don't care about any opinions at this point about my semantics.
> 
> Now that that's settled, read again why I didn't mention UN. I mentioned Rolex because they invented the "call it whatever you like" GMT.
> 
> ...


Here's what you wrote: "I intentionally left off a few very pricey brands like *Jaeger Le-Coultre, Patek Philippe, Ulysse Nardin, and Bvlgari* *that also make true GMTs*."

And my response was that the UN is cheaper than the GMT Master II at actual store prices.

So is the JLC Master Hometime on the secondary market.

The Bulgari Octa GMT is an ultra/thin and also a chronograph, so its hardly a comparison. But it would be no more expensive that a Daytona with added GMT functionality, methinks.

And you said you listed the GMT Master II as the representative of all the Rolex models with traveler's GMT functionality, not because it was the first with that feature.

Rick "words still mean things" Denney


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

TheWhiteRabbit said:


> HAHAHA ! its all good! i was just using this as an opportunity for a gratuitous photo op! (haven't had a chance to post this particular pic anywhere else on WUS yet and i kinda like how it came out so....BAM):-d:-d:-d


I'd have done the same...it's a beautiful watch!


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Rdenney said:


> Here's what you wrote: "I intentionally left off a few very pricey brands like *Jaeger Le-Coultre, Patek Philippe, Ulysse Nardin, and Bvlgari* *that also make true GMTs*."
> 
> And my response was that the UN is cheaper than the GMT Master II at actual store prices.
> 
> ...


I did do a quick search of UN GMTs and what showed up were all priced in the $20k-$30k range. I'm sure there are less expensive ones out there but I didn't have the time (nor the inclination) to go searching for one so I grouped it in with the more expensive brands in that sentence. And because I do know that words matter, I specifically didn't use the word "comprehensive" when describing my list.

No, I didn't mention that's why I put the Rolex on the list but that was the reason. Along with Omega, they were two of the first (if not THE first two) to introduce this kind of movement and they have long been most closely associated with it.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Tohono Rat said:


> The one to rule them all: https://www.glashuette-original.com/collection/senator/senator-cosmopolite/1-89-02-03-02-01
> 
> View attachment 14331097
> 
> ...


Thank you...I neglected to mention GO in my "pricey" brands list...I should've. But thanks for posting a pic as well...that's what the thread is here for.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

robi1138 said:


> I would love it if all of the terms were settled and took into account all types of GMT, but they're not. I tried to think of a few politically correct terms to call each and every type of GMT while I was typing this post but realized it would be pointless as I'm sure someone would have an issue with them anyway.


Why the need to label and compartmentalise? "GMT" does it, and "world timer" is often used for watches thst display names of cities, possibly with some mechanism to integrate them into the movement. "true" just doesn't work, as it implies certain kinds cannot display two timezones at once (i.e. false). It's also not an accepted definition. The first time I heard "true GMT" I thought all the other kinds were somehow non-functional. More fool me!


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

robi1138 said:


> And your brilliance seems to lie in attributing generally used terms to me, missing the entire point of a thread, and being a sarcastic troll...kudos!


And yet the internet is still brilliant at it, and you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Better chuck my 1675 GMT-Master away then, I would want a "falsie" that can't display two zones at once!!


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

robi1138 said:


> I did do a quick search of UN GMTs and what showed up were all priced in the $20k-$30k range. I'm sure there are less expensive ones out there but I didn't have the time (nor the inclination) to go searching for one so I grouped it in with the more expensive brands in that sentence. And because I do know that words matter, I specifically didn't use the word "comprehensive" when describing my list.
> 
> No, I didn't mention that's why I put the Rolex on the list but that was the reason. Along with Omega, they were two of the first (if not THE first two) to introduce this kind of movement and they have long been most closely associated with it.


The last time I was looking at a UN Executive GMT, in blue ceramic and steel, the store (a retail AD) offered it for $5600. That was a good discount for an AD-a typical gray market price. But even retail is under the Rolex GMT Master II.










It's under 20 even in pink gold. What watch were you looking at?

The words you didn't use can't offer any correction to the ones you did. But you knew that.

Rick "let's move on" Denney


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

One-Seventy said:


> Why the need to label and compartmentalise? "GMT" does it, and "world timer" is often used for watches thst display names of cities, possibly with some mechanism to integrate them into the movement. "true" just doesn't work, as it implies certain kinds cannot display two timezones at once (i.e. false). It's also not an accepted definition. The first time I heard "true GMT" I thought all the other kinds were somehow non-functional. More fool me!


My whole thread is about compartmentalization. I'm only interested in a certain type of GMT watch here, the traveler/"true" GMT style. "true" GMT may not be politically correct, accurate, or even accepted, but it is the most common way that this style of GMT is identified or referred to.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

One-Seventy said:


> And yet the internet is still brilliant at it, and you've swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Better chuck my 1675 GMT-Master away then, I would want a "falsie" that can't display two zones at once!!


You're correct...thread crappers get way too much attention. Buh-bye, chief.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Rdenney said:


> The last time I was looking at a UN Executive GMT, in blue ceramic and steel, the store (a retail AD) offered it for $5600. That was a good discount for an AD-a typical gray market price. But even retail is under the Rolex GMT Master II.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I looked up the UN GMT +/- on Google (as it was the only one I knew for sure had the jumping hour hand) and clicked the "shopping" tab. I saw the Perpetual ones (which I believe the +/- is, but i could be wrong) and saw high prices. Only saw around $5k for used ones. Does the one you mentioned have a jumping hour hand?

I will eventually go back and add other watches to the original post. I'll add at least one UN, GO, and some other ones from my "pricey" list, as long as they're not exorbitantly expensive.



Rdenney said:


> The words you didn't use can't offer any correction to the ones you did. But you knew that.
> 
> Rick "let's move on" Denney


Yes...and I should've known you'd point it out to me ;-)


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## vmmvmmm (Apr 2, 2009)

As a very frequent traveller, let me just pile on by saying YES!!!!! It has frustrated me in the past when I've purchased a watch that had a GMT function, but effectively were useless because they did not have a jumping hour hand. I would second the Breitling B35 movement as a great option, and one I'm going to pick up shortly as another travel option when I need to track more than two time zones at once.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

robi1138 said:


> Yes...and I should've known you'd point it out to me ;-)


Many insulting words are in common use, too. But people who disagree with their use simply don't use them. Their avoidance in no way inhibits clarity.

The reason people are reacting is because it's insulting to those whose interest in GMT watches includes those without directly settable 12-hour hands, which satisfy use cases requiring GMT but not travel convenience. Nobody likes their interest to be invalidated by redefining terms, and it's easy enough to avoid doing so.

Such as this one, with a Zenith movement, that has GMT truly printed right on the dial:










Rick "no, the 12-hour hand is not independently settable, which is why I didn't suggest a Zenith for your list" Denney


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Rdenney said:


> Many insulting words are in common use, too. But people who disagree with their use simply don't use them. Their avoidance in no way inhibits clarity.
> 
> The reason people are reacting is because it's insulting to those whose interest in GMT watches includes those without directly settable 12-hour hands, which satisfy use cases requiring GMT but not travel convenience. Nobody likes their interest to be invalidated by redefining terms, and it's easy enough to avoid doing so.
> 
> ...


And many words that are not meant to be insulting are interpreted as such. I don't find it insulting because I don't believe "true" was meant as the antonym of "false" in this case. "true" also means ideal, which is where people who prefer this type came up with the phrase. And to traveler's it is ideal. Any watch with a rotating 12-hour bezel is technically a GMT but "true" GMTs offer a unique and beneficial feature to an obviously large percentage of people (hence the interest in the topic). The fact that people take that word another way is on them. I understand why people could misread that and feel invalidated and, yes, I could avoid using the term. However, since traveler GMTs are commonly referred to as "true" GMTs, I'm not going to not use the word and have people wonder what I'm talking about. And, since there is now a distinction between a traveler's GMT and "true" GMT ("true" GMT showing local date, traveler's GMT showing home date), there's no way to just eliminate that phrase and not confuse everybody.

Like it or not, "true" GMT is how it is referred to most commonly...otherwise I wouldn't use it. And any insult derived from that rests on the insulted because "true" has many meanings. When another word is used and becomes ubiquitous, I'll switch to that.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Rdenney said:


> . . .
> 
> The reason people are reacting is because it's insulting to those whose interest in GMT watches includes those without directly settable 12-hour hands, which satisfy use cases requiring GMT but not travel convenience. Nobody likes their interest to be invalidated by redefining terms, and it's easy enough to avoid doing so.
> 
> ...


Yes, though for me it's also about simple historical accuracy, i.e., facts matter. It's simply incorrect to exclude the original Rolex GMT-Masters & non-Rolex watches that work like them from any rational definition of "true GMT" watches. It's like someone suggesting that a "true automobile" must have an automatic transmission.

Here, the thread could be simply renamed "Guide to GMT watches with jumping 12-hour hands (with gallery)". A little longer, but very clear.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> . . .
> 
> Like it or not, "true" GMT is how it is referred to most commonly...otherwise I wouldn't use it. And any insult derived from that rests on the insulted because "true" has many meanings.


Maybe, but only among watch nerds who weren't alive or don't remember anything before 1981! :-d [Insert appropriate "get off my lawn" GIF].

I won't get into responding to the whole "'true' has many meanings" statement. Not insulted, just o| .


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## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

This is a very nice thread, thank you. I've ruminated on these "true travel" watches for some time. Perhaps the least expensive mechanical "True Travel GMT/World time watch AND the most convenient to use is this Longines variant. Besides independent hour hand manipulation, once the 24 hr ring is set up to your home time/city, it always gives you the correct time in all those respective cities no matter how many local time zones you move the hour hand to. No turning bezels, pressing buttons, flipping latches, etc., to find out the times in the other cities. You only have to change it during DST/ST change overs. Of course, things will get screwed up when going to those places that are 30 or 45 or 15 minutes off of normal timezones; better to avoid those places anyway. Also, at its sub $2000 price point, you can't place the city's timezone you are in at the top of the dial, that's just gold plating anyway. But I guess if you go to so many different places on one trip that you forget the city you are currently in, it may be useful. Patek Phillipe has a nice model that can help you out there. Unfortunately, I don't think this model is currently being produced, but can be found in any number of GM sites.

heb
CONFIG]14335253[/ATTACH]


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Ziptie said:


> There's no reason for your definition to include the word "mechanical."
> 
> Every Citizen Eco-drive GMT that I've found is a true GMT. This includes very common models running the B876 or 877 movements such as the Nighthawk, and higher end movements such as the H116 that are atomic/radio controlled, have perpetual calendars, and many other features.
> 
> ...


To get back on topic, agreed that Citizen has a great selection of quartz Eco-Drive models with the GMT function across their product line, from affordable to fancy. For Citizen fans in some parts of the world, including the UK, Australia, & India, but not the Americas, there's the new Promaster GMT World Time BJ7100 series discussed in this thread. Here's my BJ7100-82E:


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

vmmvmmm said:


> ...but effectively were useless because they did not have a jumping hour hand.


I don't understand this. A non- jumping hour GMT is useless because it takes a minute or two longer to set? A bit of a nuisance, maybe... but useless?


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## joeshoup (Jul 15, 2018)

This is a killer thread... The gmt is the complication my collection is missing! So far the Seiko SBDB011 is my favorite, but keep them coming


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

dbostedo said:


> I don't understand this. A non- jumping hour GMT is useless because it takes a minute or two longer to set? A bit of a nuisance, maybe... but useless?


You know what's useless? Am ETA 2893 based GMT with a 24h rotating bezel, or even worse - an internal 24h bezel set with a second crown. Might as well have the GMT hand slaved to the hour hand on that type of set up.

Yet it just so happens that I have one of those, and still love it:


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

dbostedo said:


> vmmvmmm said:
> 
> 
> > ...but effectively were useless because they did not have a jumping hour hand.
> ...


Agreed, it's just a matter of convenience & familiarity w/24-hour time, not necessity. After all, you don't even have to reset anything (but a few brain cells) on a pre-1981 _true_ GMT watch, just turn the f-ing bezel & look at the 24-hour hand.

Maybe this is why it's so hard to find 12-hour bezels nowadays ;-) . But seriously, for a lot of people who travel, but aren't rapidly going back & forth across multiple time zones in a short period of time &/or don't need to track home time, a 3-hand watch w/a jumping hour hand would be sufficient.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> You know what's useless? Am ETA 2893 based GMT with a 24h rotating bezel, or even worse - an internal 24h bezel set with a second crown. Might as well have the GMT hand slaved to the hour hand on that type of set up.
> 
> Yet it just so happens that I have one of those, and still love it:
> 
> View attachment 14336339


Neat! But strange... a 24 hour hand, and a rotating 24-hour internal bezel? I guess they just wanted to provide maximum options for how you want to set it? Maybe they found that some people like to just move the bezel, and some like to leave the bezel alone and set the 24 hour hand?

And of course, you could still do three time zones with that if you wanted to, as long as you can get used to reading the GMT hand without using the bezel at all.


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## Camguy (Nov 23, 2012)

Not a "true' GMT, oddly enough, but three timezones. The GMT hand is set to...well...GMT, and the bezel gives me local time in 24-hour format.

It _is_ a bit of a PITA to reset at DST change time...first the local time, then the GMT hand (which has to go all the way around), then the bezel.









I really do prefer a jumping 12-hour hand, and a 24-hour bezel still gives me a third time zone.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

dbostedo said:


> Neat! But strange... a 24 hour hand, and a rotating 24-hour internal bezel? I guess they just wanted to provide maximum options for how you want to set it? Maybe they found that some people like to just move the bezel, and some like to leave the bezel alone and set the 24 hour hand?
> 
> And of course, you could still do three time zones with that if you wanted to, as long as you can get used to reading the GMT hand without using the bezel at all.


Not so strange, basically the same as every other ETA 2893 GMT, most just have the traditional external bezel.

You can:
(1) use the bezel the original GMT-Master way, i.e., turn it to track local time without moving the 24-hour hand (12-hour hand is home time or GMT/UTC/Zulu);
(2) don't turn the bezel & use the jumping 24-hour hand for local time (12-hour hand is still home time or GMT/UTC/Zulu); &
(3) in combination w/1 or 2, turn the bezel to check on a 3rd time zone.

There are also watches that have a 24-hour scale on the dial or rehaut in addition to the movable 24-hour bezel.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Here, the thread could be simply renamed "Guide to GMT watches with jumping 12-hour hands (with gallery)". A little longer, but very clear.


*This is going to be my final comment on this topic as I think we're beating a dead horse here, it's taking away from the intent of this thread, and your comment presents a natural ending point to the conversation...at least for me.

Renaming the thread would be the right thing to do to avoid these issues. And I would be happy to do so if I thought that newbies or even longtime WIS would think that way before they did a search on the topic. But the fact of the matter is that of all the terms to use to search for this type of watch, the most common is "true GMT"...followed by "traveler's GMT". This pertains to posts on this forum as well as watch reviews around the internet. If I excluded the term "true GMT", I'd be excluding most of the valuable posts I found on the topic and I'm not about to exclude this one from future searches.*

*So, as a last comment on the topic, I agree that "true" GMT is not the best, most politically correct, or most accurate description...but it is the most common as of today. I respect people's views on the the topic but for me, this matter is closed. If you'd like to discuss it further, please start another thread on the topic before this one gets side-tracked more than it has. Thank you.*


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

heb said:


> This is a very nice thread, thank you. I've ruminated on these "true travel" watches for some time. Perhaps the least expensive mechanical "True Travel GMT/World time watch AND the most convenient to use is this Longines variant. Besides independent hour hand manipulation, once the 24 hr ring is set up to your home time/city, it always gives you the correct time in all those respective cities no matter how many local time zones you move the hour hand to. No turning bezels, pressing buttons, flipping latches, etc., to find out the times in the other cities. You only have to change it during DST/ST change overs. Of course, things will get screwed up when going to those places that are 30 or 45 or 15 minutes off of normal timezones; better to avoid those places anyway. Also, at its sub $2000 price point, you can't place the city's timezone you are in at the top of the dial, that's just gold plating anyway. But I guess if you go to so many different places on one trip that you forget the city you are currently in, it may be useful. Patek Phillipe has a nice model that can help you out there. Unfortunately, I don't think this model is currently being produced, but can be found in any number of GM sites.
> 
> heb
> CONFIG]14335253[/ATTACH]


Very nice add! I had a different Longines model but I really like this one because it's one of the most affordable, and Longines doesn't make a ton of jumping-hour-hand watches...thanks! I would agree that this may be one of the best bargains out there. For a traveler-GMT (non-worldtimer), the Alpinas and the Hamilton are the most affordable.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

dbostedo said:


> I don't understand this. A non- jumping hour GMT is useless because it takes a minute or two longer to set? A bit of a nuisance, maybe... but useless?


Useless may have been a bit harsh but it's not just the jumping-hour hand. On a standard GMT, when you change the local time on the main hands, the GMT hand moves as well. So if you travel, you have to change the main hands by hacking the watch, then change the GMT hand back to where it should be. And you've lost accuracy of a properly set watch. On a "true"/traveler GMT, you simply pull the crown out halfway, turn it a couple of clicks and you're done. No loss of accuracy, no loss of properly aligned hands and markers.

Useless? No. Royal PITA and inconvenient with a better solution available? Absolutely!


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> Useless may have been a bit harsh but it's not just the jumping-hour hand. On a standard GMT, when you change the local time on the main hands, the GMT hand moves as well. So if you travel, you have to change the main hands by hacking the watch, then change the GMT hand back to where it should be. And you've lost accuracy of a properly set watch. On a "true"/traveler GMT, you simply pull the crown out halfway, turn it a couple of clicks and you're done. No loss of accuracy, no loss of properly aligned hands and markers.
> 
> Useless? No. Royal PITA and inconvenient with a better solution available? Absolutely!


Once again: on an old-fashioned GMT, _you don't change the local time on the main hands_, you just turn the bezel & use the 24-hour hand. This is even faster than using a jumping 12-hour hand because you don't have to unscrew the crown, pull it out 1 step, change the hour, & then return the crown to its original position; on some watches w/IAHHs it's also really easy to pull the crown out too far & inadvertently hack, meaning you end up resetting the time, anyway.

I speak from personal experience. I used to have a 1675 GMT-Master that was my only real watch for like 10 years until it was stolen (hence my WUS handle). I travel a lot, so when I got back into watch nerdery, I replaced the GMT-Master with a Nomos Tangomat GMT, a 16570 Explorer II, & other watches w/IAHHs, but also have old-school GMTs like the Bulova Accutron Astronaut & navigator/pilot watches w/12-hour bezels. At 1st, I was like you & thought that the IAHH would be this huge improvement, but it's really not that big of a deal.

If you're super lazy, as I often am, I would recommend something like the Tangomat GMT because you just have to push a button to change time zones & don't have to mess w/the crown. If it had shorter lugs & better water resistance, it would be my go-to international travel watch. Right now, though, if I'm just traveling within the U.S. or going on a short overseas trip, I find it easier to just turn the 12-hour or 24-hour bezel for local time; this is particularly true of business trips when it's important to remember home office time. For long vacations, yeah, I'll go with the Nomos, Explorer II, or other IAHH watch.


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## Andy79 (Jun 26, 2019)

Thank you for starting a very informative thread. As a novice it's always nice to be able to learn about the different movements and a GMT movement had always intrigued me. 


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Andy79 said:


> Thank you for starting a very informative thread. As a novice it's always nice to be able to learn about the different movements and a GMT movement had always intrigued me.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


You're quite welcome.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Once again: on an old-fashioned GMT, _you don't change the local time on the main hands_, you just turn the bezel & use the 24-hour hand. This is even faster than using a jumping 12-hour hand because you don't have to unscrew the crown, pull it out 1 step, change the hour, & then return the crown to its original position; on some watches w/IAHHs it's also really easy to pull the crown out too far & inadvertently hack, meaning you end up resetting the time, anyway.


I understand this but most people (I believe) don't want to use the 24-hour hand as their local time. Of course it can be done, but it's not natural to glance at a watch to check the time and go to the 24-hour hand...you naturally look at the main hands. And what time are the main hands on then, GMT?

I was referring to the "standard" GMT (a phrase, I coined) as the type most typically made now by most manufacturers that allows quick change of the GMT hand (without messing up the main hands) vs. "true"/traveler GMTs that allow quick change of the regular hour hand (without messing up any other other hands including the GMT hand)

I was really focused on comparing these two types. I welcome any info on the other types of GMT watches out there as I think it adds greatly to the conversation but when I say "standard" GMT, I'm referring to the modern type of GMT.

If I misspoke here, let me know.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

No....

Using the 24-hour complication for local time is not the intent of these watches, old or new.

Unless you are living in a mine shaft, local time displayed on the twelve-hour register (hour hand, minute hand) lets the wearer of the watch interface with time as it is locally expressed. If “11:20” is ambiguous, look out the nearest window.

Remote time sensing, either UTC (GMT) or a specific but distant home zone is facilitated best in the 24-hour format.


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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

I like this thread, pictures and comments too. As I contemplate my next watch purchase which I'd like to use as my travel watch, I note that there are many many choices. From g-shock style, to quick change style (like radio and satellite), to travelers and callers GMT.

I've had the g-shock style, never liked the "fussiness" of the dial. The quick change style, need to see both time zones at once w/o swapping back and forth. And the callers GMT.

While I'm greatly tempted by the travers GMT, not being flight crew but just a passenger, I've always got loads of time on my flights to just hack and reset everything based on my destination after boarding. Yes based on the time on my phone.

Still I hear the Tudor black bay gmt and even the Longines VHP gmt calling to me (in spite of the Morse Code flash thingy)


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

[email protected]_180 said:


> No....
> 
> Using the 24-hour complication for local time is not the intent of these watches, old or new.
> 
> ...


Yes . . . at least for the every GMT watch made before 1981.

The original GMT-Master was made by Rolex as a watch for Pan Am pilots, whose "local" time was constantly changing & needed to track 2 time zones. They would set the 12-hour register to GMT time as the constant reference, hence the name of the watch, & the 24-hour hand was slaved to the 12-hour hand. The Glycine Airman solved the same problem a year earlier by just having a 24-hour watch w/a 24-hour bezel. So while you're correct that the 24-hour complication by itself wasn't used for local time, it certainly was in conjunction w/the bezel--that's why it turns (both ways) & it's the _only_ way you could track local time without resetting the watch. Just ask any pilot or military person who had a GMT-Master from the 1950s until 1981 (like my uncle who gave me his 1675 GMT-Master) or look up old Rolex instruction manuals (a rare 6542 manual is shown in this article: https://le-monde-edmond.com/in-depth-review-rolex-6542-gmt-master/). You do the same on a regular watch w/a 12-hour bezel (the "poor man's GMT"), but then you're limited to a maximum 12-hour difference, which doesn't cut it for an international airline pilot. With a fixed 24-hour bezel you have the original 1655 Explorer II, which was made for cave explorers (not miners, but close enough) for whom knowing 11:20 AM v. PM is a real problem.

You & OP are right that reading the 24-hour register is not natural for most civilians, but it was for the original users of the GMT-Master & the Airman, & it's not really a big stretch for someone today (though I'm sure the fact that the Airman is a 24-hour watch ensured that it would never be as popular as the GMT-Master). It's why I also recommend watches w/12-hour bezels for travelers who don't normally cross more than 12 time zones. Y'all should try it, the bezel is your friend!

I agree that the jumping 24-hour hand on an ETA 2893-based watch doesn't really add much utility & you still have to unscrew & pull out the crown; I have 1 & I just use the bezel like it's an old-school GMT.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

nodnar said:


> I like this thread, pictures and comments too. As I contemplate my next watch purchase which I'd like to use as my travel watch, I note that there are many many choices. From g-shock style, to quick change style (like radio and satellite), to travelers and callers GMT.
> 
> I've had the g-shock style, never liked the "fussiness" of the dial. The quick change style, need to see both time zones at once w/o swapping back and forth. And the callers GMT.
> 
> ...


If you don't really need to track home time, the regular VHP has an IAHH, as do the Citizen HAQ ("The Citizen" or "Chronomaster") models.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

I find this kind of funny. This brand calls their GMT the "GMT Traveler", they describe it as perfect for a traveler, and then (correctly) describe how you have to reset the GMT hand after changing the local time...because of course it's a standard GMT not "true"/traveler GMT: https://www.hagerwatches.com/gmt-traveler

It is of course a perfectly functional standard GMT watch but calling it the "GMT Traveler" when it isn't a traveler GMT was just kind of funny, seeing as how there have been all these debates on terminology. At least they took the trouble to explain how the movement functions.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> [email protected]_180 said:
> 
> 
> > No....
> ...


I used a later GMT Master II and the Glycine Airman as an airline pilot for about 30 years over a total career of 42 years. I appreciate your input regarding the earlier Rolex GMT.

Regardless of watch features and instructions, the 24-hour reference looses its facility for a pilot unless it is tracking GMT (UTC). It is the UTC function in 24-hour format that displays the actual time referenced by Air Traffic Services worldwide, weather reporting and forecasting, military control areas associated with international boundaries, and even the airlines' internal operational schedules.

FWIW, I've never observed another pilot, nor have I, attempted to use one of these time pieces with UTC on the twelve-hour (hour/minute) reference and some other time on the bezel. UTC on the 24-hour bezel drives everything in conjunction with minutes/seconds on the dial. I have not used the earlier GMT that you refer to but again, UTC on 12-hour hands/dials that would then require constant offset recalculation would render the complication nearly useless for flight ops. Bring your Elgin...

_Edit to add a note: Stolen GMT Master, I did use your link to read the Rolex paperwork for the GMT Master reference, just now. The fact that the 24-hour hand was driven directly with the 12-hour hand mechanically on the earlier movements requires a change of technique in using the watch when compared to the Master II reference [as you point out]. While setting the 12-hour hand dial to Zulu (GMT/UTC) and then moving the rotating bezel so that the 24-hour hand shows local time certainly works, it's counter intuitive to piloting needs. In the first example shown in the old Rolex paperwork (your link), the manual actually directs the user to "reset the watch to New York time after arriving from Rome, and to then use the Bezel to see the time back in Rome. If one substitutes GMT for Rome in this bit of instruction, it represents the only technique that I've used or encountered for this type of watch.

The biggest worry associated with transiting time zones and using exactly the correct time for procedures is an error caused by calculation, not watch function. While resetting the watch to local time *upon arrival* is an opportunity for error, it's far less fraught than continuously re-figuring AM/PM for UTC when using the 12-hour reference, en route. Think: Polar flights, during which it may never get brighter than twilight, or darker than late afternoon- for the entire flight. UTC, when read directly in the 24-hour format on the bezel, rules (Master).

The information you provided is a great reminder for how the references evolved. My focus is on the techniques employed for using them which would certainly depend on who's wearing/using the mechanism. Thanks for the links. _

To the OP:

Very nice, useful discussion regarding the General Universe of GMT's!


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

[email protected]_180 said:


> I used a later GMT Master II and the Glycine Airman as an airline pilot for about 30 years over a total career of 42 years. I appreciate your input regarding the earlier Rolex GMT.
> 
> Regardless of watch features and instructions, the 24-hour reference looses its facility for a pilot unless it is tracking GMT (UTC). It is the UTC function in 24-hour format that displays the actual time referenced by Air Traffic Services worldwide, weather reporting and forecasting, military control areas associated with international boundaries, and even the airlines' internal operational schedules.
> 
> ...


And I appreciate your & OP's input into how (most?) GMT watches are being used today. Before my 1675 was stolen, "forcing" me to get back into watch nerdery when I was looking for a replacement, I didn't even know that Rolex had introduced an IAHH in the GMT-Master II & I'm old enough to have to be reminded that the world before 1981 was ancient history for many folks today. Technology moves forward, but in this case that doesn't mean that the old tech is "useless" just less convenient, i.e., the General Universe of GMTs is bigger than OP's initial post implied. My primary objective was to remind people that they can still easily use old & old-school GMT watches, what _I_ would call "true GMTs", the way they were intended to be used &, unless you're talking Rolex or vintage Breitling, potentially save themselves a lot of money.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> And I appreciate your & OP's input into how (most?) GMT watches are being used today. Before my 1675 was stolen, "forcing" me to get back into watch nerdery when I was looking for a replacement, I didn't even know that Rolex had introduced an IAHH in the GMT-Master II & I'm old enough to have to be reminded that the world before 1981 was ancient history for many folks today.


I edited my post above to include a note regarding the links in your earlier post. Great discussion-


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

[email protected]_180 said:


> I edited my post above to include a note regarding the links in your earlier post. Great discussion-


Your edits & reference to both excerpts of 6542 manuals show how versatile the original GMT-Masters were. As 1 of the ads (4 of 27 photos) shows, Rolex was selling them to "air-pilots, ships' captains, navigators, travelers, international business men and members of the armed services", not all of whom were "hep" to the 24-hour time register. I think the 1st manual excerpt (12 of 27 photos) you mention was written for the "international business men" because its default example has the user traveling from Rome to New York, resetting the 12-hour hand to New York time & then using the 24-hour hand to track time back in Rome but offers as an "alternative method" what I would think is the way pilots/military users would use it: "You can avoid the risk of error in resetting the normal hands of your GMT-MASTER by retaining one standard time (e.g. Greenwich Mean Time) on the normal watch face, and set any given local time on the outer rim [bezel]." I think the 2nd manual excerpt (12 of 27 photos) was written more for the pilots & navigators because it only uses the "alternative method" for its example of traveling between New York and Rome & tells the user how to use the bezel when traveling East v. West.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> And I appreciate your & OP's input into how (most?) GMT watches are being used today. Before my 1675 was stolen, "forcing" me to get back into watch nerdery when I was looking for a replacement, I didn't even know that Rolex had introduced an IAHH in the GMT-Master II & I'm old enough to have to be reminded that the world before 1981 was ancient history for many folks today. Technology moves forward, but in this case that doesn't mean that the old tech is "useless" just less convenient, i.e., the General Universe of GMTs is bigger than OP's initial post implied. My primary objective was to remind people that they can still easily use old & old-school GMT watches, what _I_ would call "true GMTs", the way they were intended to be used &, unless you're talking Rolex or vintage Breitling, potentially save themselves a lot of money.


As I've noted, it was never my intention to compare every type of GMT watch...only the two types that are most commonly made today.

However, I'm glad you've brought the topic up because it makes the thread more complete and educates those of us not as familiar with the original GMT watches


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Took a lot of searching to confirm it, but I believe this is another example of a "true" GMT...the Tag Heuer Carrera Heuer 02 GMT Chronograph. It may actually be a traveler's GMT as the hour hand seems to only jump in one direction which usually means the date is tied to the GMT hand...basically you'll always see home date, not local date. But this is unconfirmed on this watch. Here's the video:

__
http://instagr.am/p/BgyxY4nHyQv/


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

Gives one a lot of respect for the now ancient early explorers and seafarers who used rudimentary clock movements and compasses, sextants for navigation and position fixing...


----------



## Maiden (Sep 19, 2014)

Good informative post. Received my first GMT a month or so ago. Really enjoying it.


----------



## vmmvmmm (Apr 2, 2009)

dbostedo said:


> I don't understand this. A non- jumping hour GMT is useless because it takes a minute or two longer to set? A bit of a nuisance, maybe... but useless?


I think it's funny how people are choosing to split hairs so much on this. I am not God, so I'm not speaking universal truth nor am I speaking in absolutes. I travel around the world a lot and am moving between many time zones while needing to keep track of my home zone as well as one or two others during any given day. For the way I use a GMT, I prefer the local time to be shown on the main dial hands, with the 24 hour hand, if there is one, keeping to either my home time zone. The bezel or world time dial can then keep track of a third, or all other time zones for me at a quick glance.

In order for this preferred way of keeping time to be practical, you need to have a jumping hour hand, connected to the date wheel, that does not hack the movement. Other setups are fine if you prefer to view the time zone you are in by looking at a 24 hour hand or the bezel, but I find that to be more of a hassle. None of these preferences are so bad that anyone should feel offended by them, for goodness sakes, it's just that in my experience, those who truly travel frequently and have to keep track of multiple time zones prefer this way of viewing the time on a traditional GMT watch.

Seems like some here are wound a bit too tight. It's ok to have a thread like this, titled like it is. As a traveller, it made complete sense to me and I found it very helpful. Other who travel, or those with different preferences are fine to discuss their preferences here or to ignore the discussion if they'd like. Either way, there's no need to take things personally, or feel like this one insignificant internet forum thread will somehow cause your favorite watch to suddenly become illegitimate.

It's all good, people. Let's just enjoy the conversation and learning about what other people like. No big deal.


----------



## vmmvmmm (Apr 2, 2009)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Agreed, it's just a matter of convenience & familiarity w/24-hour time, not necessity. After all, you don't even have to reset anything (but a few brain cells) on a pre-1981 _true_ GMT watch, just turn the f-ing bezel & look at the 24-hour hand.
> 
> Maybe this is why it's so hard to find 12-hour bezels nowadays ;-) . But seriously, for a lot of people who travel, but aren't rapidly going back & forth across multiple time zones in a short period of time &/or don't need to track home time, a 3-hand watch w/a jumping hour hand would be sufficient.


Precisely. It's just what you like and are ok with. None of this is a huge inconvenience or universally right or wrong. I like seeing what others appreciate about all watches. I appreciate what is being termed here as a "true" GMT, which has no objective defining authority - it's just how the OP decided to name it for this thread.


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

vmmvmmm said:


> ...or feel like this one *insignificant* internet forum thread will somehow cause...


Insignificant??!! How dare you??!!

Lol :-d


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Nice summation here by someone of the 3 types of GMT watches with GMT hands and how they function and differ. He didn't include 24-hour watches like the Glycine Airman: https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/25996-gmt-hand-watches-usage-review/


----------



## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> Nice summation here by someone of the 3 types of GMT watches with GMT hands and how they function and differ. He didn't include 24-hour watches like the Glycine Airman: https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/25996-gmt-hand-watches-usage-review/


For another pilot's perspective on quartz GMT watches, you should check out dmjonez's post here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/butler-other-quartz-gmts-4950709.html


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

*I just updated my original post with 11 additional watches along with some minor textual changes*


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

robi1138 said:


> *I just updated my original post with 11 additional watches along with some minor textual changes*


Nice! That's quite a list .... lots of great watches.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

dbostedo said:


> Nice! That's quite a list .... lots of great watches.


Thank you. It's more than I expected but still a far cry from the amount of "standard" GMT watches out there.


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## bb-man (Jul 9, 2013)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



whoischich said:


> The Seiko SUN067P1 is a great and affordable true GMT watch. Comes in a black version as well, the SUN069P1. Has a very handy world timer function too.


Seiko should make a solar version of this. I have a kinetic and am not a fan of the movement.


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## whoischich (Sep 11, 2014)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



bb-man said:


> Seiko should make a solar version of this. I have a kinetic and am not a fan of the movement.


What's to dislike about the kinetic movement?


----------



## Jazzmaster (Apr 23, 2011)

Well, if we're adding worldtimers to the mix, then you may want to add JLC to the list...


----------



## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

*Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*

I saw the word "automatic" mentioned in the OP's first post, but after reading/scanning the rest of the entries I'm not seeing why quartz GMTs or worldtimers which meet the prerequisites aren't making the list. The Casio Oceanus Manta shown below has a worldtimer bezel, but also has:

1) An independent hour hand (local time) that can be advanced in one hour increments.
2) The day & date move forward or back with the hour hand depending on which side of the date line it settles on.
3) A 24 hour sub-dial in the lower left quadrant that shows home time.
4) A 24 hour sub-dial in the upper left quadrant that shows local time (AM/PM functionality)
5) Once set, home time and local time can be flipped with all sub-dials adjusting accordingly
6) Throw in in solar, perpetual calendar, automatic DST/STD adjustment, lightweight/thin titanium case & bracelet, 100m WR, and top-notch fit/finish for less than 2K and you have something pretty close to the ultimate GMT for anyone not living in places where the sun currently doesn't rise:










For those liking Oris' approach, the older Worldtimer Classics can be found used or new for much less than the current offering. The differences being they use pushers to adjust the hour hand (as with the UN) and more importantly they come in more wearable sizes (37mm - 42mm depending on year/model). Here's the 37mm version:










40mm:










42.5mm:










There are a few others with WR varying depending on the model.


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## bb-man (Jul 9, 2013)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



whoischich said:


> What's to dislike about the kinetic movement?


Not a long power reserve like a solar would have, more like a couple days. And some on the forums report if the kinetic is not kept charged up, you run the risk of capacitor damage?


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



bb-man said:


> Not a long power reserve like a solar would have, more like a couple days. And some on the forums report if the kinetic is not kept charged up, you run the risk of capacitor damage?


A kinetic movement has a very long power reserve, but it's a real pain to keep them charged if you have even a moderately sized collection.


----------



## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



mleok said:


> A kinetic movement has a very long power reserve, but it's a real pain to keep them charged if you have even a moderately sized collection.


Do conventional watch winders work for them?


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Seiko Kinetic traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



watchcrank said:


> Do conventional watch winders work for them?


No, but cheap induction chargers for electric candles work spectacularly well:

Have 4 fully charged Seiko Kinetic travelers GMTs in this cheap induction charger designed for electric candles.



This orientation works best for charging the watches, after some experimentation.



Occasionally, about once a month, just push the red "charge" button to keep them topped up and ready to grab-and-go.

It is the no-name, Asian version of this Philips Tealight:










Got it cheap off eBay or Amazon Lightning deal online.


----------



## watchcrank_tx (Sep 1, 2012)

*Re: Seiko Kinetic traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



yankeexpress said:


> No, but cheap induction chargers for electric candles work spectacularly well:
> 
> Have 4 fully charged Seiko Kinetic travelers GMTs in this cheap induction charger designed for electric candles.


Neat. And look, you have room for two more! :-d


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## bb-man (Jul 9, 2013)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



mleok said:


> A kinetic movement has a very long power reserve, but it's a real pain to keep them charged if you have even a moderately sized collection.


I have a Seiko Premier moonphase kinetic. If worn daily, the PR indicator will only show a couple days power reserve. My Citizen AT solar, if you believe the PR indicator, has a reserve of 30-220 days. If you are comparing the kinetic to an automatic, 48+ hours compares well to many autos, but falls woefully short of the 30+ day power reserve of the Citizen AT. I agree its a pain to keep the kinetic charged if you have a rotation.


----------



## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



bb-man said:


> I have a Seiko Premier moonphase kinetic. If worn daily, the PR indicator will only show a couple days power reserve. My Citizen AT solar, if you believe the PR indicator, has a reserve of 30-220 days. If you are comparing the kinetic to an automatic, 48+ hours compares well to many autos, but falls woefully short of the 30+ day power reserve of the Citizen AT. I agree its a pain to keep the kinetic charged if you have a rotation.


Both my Seiko Sportura Kinetic GMT and my Citizen Eco-Drive Satellite Wave have a power reserve of about 6 months according to their power reserve indicator. But, the Kinetic requires me to jury rig a toothbrush induction charger to charge it to full, whereas my Eco-Drive just requires leaving it out on the window still.


----------



## bb-man (Jul 9, 2013)

Thanks to Yankeexpress and Mleok for info on induction charging.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



ljb187 said:


> I saw the word "automatic" mentioned in the OP's first post, but after reading/scanning the rest of the entries I'm not seeing why quartz GMTs or worldtimers which meet the prerequisites aren't making the list.


Mainly because I'm not a fan of quartz watches. I like the mechanical aspects of watches and I feel it's much more difficult to integrate GMT functions in mechanical watches while keeping them at a reasonable size. I could be wrong on this but I just don't like quartz movements.

That being said, I welcome any additions here that meet the criteria. I prefer to keep it mechanical (and I'll only be adding mechanical watches to my list) but feel free to add quartz watches that otherwise meet the criteria. No digital displays though, please..that's pushing it. ;-)


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

bb-man said:


> Thanks to Yankeexpress and Mleok for info on induction charging.


There is a specially designed winder that works with Seiko Kinetics,

Kinetic Watch Winders, Seiko Kinetic Watch Charger, Watch Winder, Charges Kinetic capacitor, similar YT02A


----------



## Vinegar (Oct 9, 2018)

There are a heap of threads about kinetics on WUS, but I can summarize much of it here in a few lines as a primer for those that don't know.

1. It's Seiko tech that uses a rotor to charge a battery (initially a capacitor, now a lithium cell like a mobile phone) to power a quartz movement.

5. I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that Seiko don't actually believe, in 2019, that it is the best tech you can possibly use to power a wristwatch. But then springs and balance wheels aren't either. I suspect that, like mechanicals, they keep making them because there's still a market for them. It's quirky, it's kinda retro and cool and uniquely Seiko and it retains that man/machine/electronics interaction in a way that (for example) solar does not. Variety is good. It'll be a shame if the haters succeed in flooding the forums with their bile and kill off the technology.

3. The rotor needs more of a 'spin' than typical watch winders provide, but it's pretty efficient in normal use, and doesn't take much actual wearing to get to full charge (equivalent to 6 months reserve now I believe in most models).

6. For some reason many of the kinetic owners here are OBSESSED with keeping their watch at 100% charge 100% of the time, and become audibly distressed and frustrated when they discover their watch to be anything less than that. It's unclear whether they feel this way about their phones.

7. If you actually WEAR the watch, semi-regularly and for several hours at a time, while moving around like a normal conscious human, you'll have no problem, it'll just work. If you wear it only briefly, are in a coma, or have three hundred other watches in your rotation, you'll probably want some other method to keep it going between its tragically brief experiences of life. Seiko's induction charger is expensive and was intended for service centres and retailers not individual users (who Seiko foolishly believed would actually wear the watch). You can buy one of these chargers, or you can use the candle or toothbrush thingies to get the same end result.

4. Some folks have had bad experiences, either with old/dud capacitors that leaked, or lithium cells that have been allowed to sit flat for extended periods impacting their ability to attain and hold a charge. And some folks just hate on them because.

2. Your local jeweler won't carry the right cell, but they might try and substitute one. Don't let this happen. You can buy the right one on eBay for about $15 and replace it yourself (see youtube), or get someone to do it for you. Or you can go to a Seiko service centre. Not hard. Oh and the old capacitors can be directly replaced with the new cells.

8. I like mine. I imagine I'll get 10 years or more before I'll notice any decline in cell performance, at which time I'll get Seiko to replace it, service the rotor mech, replace the seals and pressure-test the result, and I'll be good to go again. 

14. A solar movement's battery and seals will not last any longer, but it lacks the moving rotor/generator parts and requires no input from you as a human. If that appeals to you more, buy a solar.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Glad this thread continues to grow with helpful and applicable responses. Not all of them go that way, as I found out a couple of years ago: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/real-gmt-current-watches-list-3503162-6.html#post44125699


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

robi1138 said:


> Glad this thread continues to grow with helpful and applicable responses. Not all of them go that way, as I found out a couple of years ago: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/real-gmt-current-watches-list-3503162-6.html#post44125699


Well at least you avoided calling the non-independent hour hand watches "fake GMTs" this time... that probably helped. :-d

I'd still prefer you changed all mentions of "true GMT" to some other term, regardless of common usage. Maybe you could be part of the change to get rid of that common usage!


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Vinegar said:


> 3. The rotor needs more of a 'spin' than typical watch winders provide, but it's pretty efficient in normal use, and doesn't take much actual wearing to get to full charge (equivalent to 6 months reserve now I believe in most models).
> 
> 7. If you actually WEAR the watch, semi-regularly and for several hours at a time, while moving around like a normal conscious human, you'll have no problem, it'll just work. If you wear it only briefly, are in a coma, or have three hundred other watches in your rotation, you'll probably want some other method to keep it going between its tragically brief experiences of life. Seiko's induction charger is expensive and was intended for service centres and retailers not individual users (who Seiko foolishly believed would actually wear the watch). You can buy one of these chargers, or you can use the candle or toothbrush thingies to get the same end result.


Without editorializing, it takes walking 0.36 km to generate one day of power reserve, and the typical American walks between 3K to 4K steps per day, or 2.4 to 3.2 km per day, so you have to wear it about once a week (6.67 days) if you have a somewhat sedentary lifestyle in order to maintain the level of power reserve.

With that level of physical activity, you need 31.7 days of continuous wear to charge the Seiko Kinetic to full from empty. 31.7 days = 6 months X 30 days/month / (6.67 days of power reserve generated per day - 1 day of power reserve drained per day).

If however you walk 10K steps per day, then you only have to wear it once every 22.2 days, and it will take 8.5 days of continuous wear to charge it to full from empty.


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## BBCDoc (Dec 23, 2008)

Regarding Seiko Kinetic:

My GMT has a power reserve of 6 months. Any time it starts to drop, I take my daughter to the trampoline pit and it gets topped up within the hour. 

Done, with lots of fun!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

mleok said:


> There is a specially designed winder that works with Seiko Kinetics,
> 
> Kinetic Watch Winders, Seiko Kinetic Watch Charger, Watch Winder, Charges Kinetic capacitor, similar YT02A


I seem to recall recommending that winder to you on another thread. You were going to report back on it but I don't think you did - apologies if I missed it. What has your experience been and would you recommend?


----------



## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Snaggletooth said:


> I seem to recall recommending that winder to you on another thread. You were going to report back on it but I don't think you did - apologies if I missed it. What has your experience been and would you recommend?


Thanks for the suggestion. I didn't end up purchasing one as the inductive electric toothbrush charger was working well enough and I decided that I would be better off trying to get a Tudor Black Bay GMT instead.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

vmmvmmm said:


> Precisely. It's just what you like and are ok with. None of this is a huge inconvenience or universally right or wrong. I like seeing what others appreciate about all watches. I appreciate what is being termed here as a "true" GMT, which has no objective defining authority - it's just how the OP decided to name it for this thread.


True, threads like this are all about how different people use watches, not religion/politics, but I think it's strange, & sad, for modern watch buyers to get worked up about jumping 12 or 24 hour hands, & forget (or never know) about the fact that the main "feature" on the original GMT watches was really the bezel. GMT watches w/no jumping hour hands were good enough for not just regular civilian & military pilots, but for many of the pilots who flew A-12s, X-15s, & SR-71s as well as many of the Mercury & Apollo astronauts (not as familiar w/the Soviet space program, but cosmonauts apparently used an electric/electronic version of the Glycine Airman on occasion). Seems to me that they should also be good enough for someone taking Jet Blue from coast to coast or Emirates to Bangkok nowadays, _especially_ since everyone has their phone to tell them local time.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

You are correct that it is not a religious topic, which is why it's not a matter of "truth," but rather simply whether a watch does or does not fulfill a given set of requirements. GMT watches that don't have settable hour hands are still GMT watches, but they simply lack that feature. Some use cases (built on need or desire) require it and some don't.

I have dual-time watches that require a stylus or a slightly more complicated procedure to set the offset. But if I'm traveling to just one distant timezone it's easy enough to set it at home or on the plane, when I have time to kill anyway. I usually set the subdial hands on a dual time watch to the destination zone, and leave the big hands on the home zone. The Concord below works well with that-the subdial time hands have greater dial contrast. If I'm going to the same time zone as the previous trip for that watch, I don't have to adjust the offset at all. Two examples:



















If I'm not traveling at all, but would enjoy having a ready reference to UTC or another time zone, then a watch that adjusts the 24-hour hand is perfectly appropriate, such as this Concord with a Zenith cal. 682 that adjusts the 24-hour hand using a pusher:










If I don't really use the complication but the history is interesting, then the original Rolex GMT and its competitors with non-adjustable 24-hour hands may fulfill all my requirements:










But for complex travel itineraries, indeed nothing beats a traveler's GMT or world timer with an adjustable main hours hand. This one is self referencing-just look at what time it is in the destination timezone, and adjust the 12-hour hand to that time.










Rick "it's about verification, not validation" Denney

P.S. I note that the OP ran into the same trouble on the previous thread from a couple of years ago that he linked a few posts back. Maybe terminology is more important than he wishes.


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Rdenney said:


> But for complex travel itineraries, indeed nothing beats a traveler's GMT or world timer with an adjustable main hours hand. This one is self referencing-just look at what time it is in the destination timezone, and adjust the 12-hour hand to that time.


Agreed. And this is the whole point of this thread. It is not meant to be a discussion about GMT watches in general or which one is "better". It is about the desire to know which models have this particular feature which I and a lot of other people find useful. The use of the phrase "true" GMT is inaccurate and unfortunate but I can't stress enough that 1) I didn't invent the term, and (more importantly) 2) it IS the most common term used when referencing this feature.



Rdenney said:


> P.S. I note that the OP ran into the same trouble on the previous thread from a couple of years ago that he linked a few posts back. Maybe terminology is more important than he wishes.


Yes it is because it's just a stupid phrase someone came up with that has partially derailed this thread as well. I've discussed it ad nauseum here but I will NOT let this thread get derailed by semantics. Someone suggested that I come up with an alternate name but I addressed this in an earlier post as well. In fact I've addressed everything possible about the phrase "true" gmt that there's nothing left to say without being repetitive.

*Please people...enough with the semantics debate. If you read all my posts here, I've addressed the topic thoroughly. Can we stick to finding more models of GMTs with jumping hour hands? You know the type I'm talking about...traveler's GMT or the "non-PC name" GMT.
*
Btw, I keep looking but I can't find anymore (other than other models by already listed manufacturers). Have we reached the end? Surely there are more.


----------



## Snaggletooth (May 11, 2017)

Mine.







Quartz _and_ Kinetic *∴* not everyone's cup o'cha.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> Agreed. And this is the whole point of this thread. It is not meant to be a discussion about GMT watches in general or which one is "better". It is about the desire to know which models have this particular feature which I and a lot of other people find useful. The use of the phrase "true" GMT is inaccurate and unfortunate but I can't stress enough that 1) I didn't invent the term, and (more importantly) 2) it IS the most common term used when referencing this feature.
> 
> Yes it is because it's just a stupid phrase someone came up with that has partially derailed this thread as well. I've discussed it ad nauseum here but I will NOT let this thread get derailed by semantics. Someone suggested that I come up with an alternate name but I addressed this in an earlier post as well. In fact I've addressed everything possible about the phrase "true" gmt that there's nothing left to say without being repetitive.
> 
> ...


You've done an admirable job of what you clearly explained your intent to be. Frankly, it's the most comprehensive compilation of the topic I've read, period. 'Great work, and thank you for having done so. A point somewhat missed, is that you also attracted and welcomed informed responses. If only most threads were as accomplished..

_The cheap seats always take cheap shots. It's....... cheap._


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Vinegar said:


> 14. A solar movement's battery and seals will not last any longer, but it lacks the moving rotor/generator parts and requires no input from you as a human. If that appeals to you more, buy a solar.


In addition to my 4 Kinetic GMT, also own a bunch of solars (Seiko, Casio, Citizen and Timex) and have never had to replace any solar cell and some of them are now 21 years old, still on original solar cells, holding a full charge.

So it is still to be determined whether solar or Kinetics (or both) will outlive me.


----------



## BlueLampPost (Mar 6, 2018)

*Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*

Really enjoying this thread (apart from the banal semantics objections).

How about the montblanc geosphere as a unique world timer option?

I think the Chopard LUC GMT One, Zenith Pilot GMT, Meerson GMT, Eterna Royal Kontiki GMT, and Montblanc 1858 Dual Time also comply.

I assume the relatively new Urban Jurgensen One GMT is too pricey (although you could add a pricier bracket with this, VC Overseas Dual Time, Parmigiani Fleurier Toric Hemispheres retrograde, Moritz Grossman, etc.)?

Is the IWC Ingénieur GMT different enough from the UTC pilot to be included?

Anyone know if the Pierre DeRoche TNT GMT is a true GMT?

Sorry I don't have pics available atm.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Some are missing :
-the Breitling B04 Chronomat GMT
-the Breitling B04 Navitimer GMT
-the Breitling Transocean Unitime
-the IWC Pilot's watch Timezoner chronograph
-vintage Heuer Autavia GMT


----------



## ExpiredWatchdog (Feb 13, 2019)

BBCDoc said:


> Regarding Seiko Kinetic:
> 
> My GMT has a power reserve of 6 months. Any time it starts to drop, I take my daughter to the trampoline pit and it gets topped up within the hour.
> 
> Done, with lots of fun!


That won't last as long as an induction charger.

I remember taking my daughter to one of those gyms with the balance beams and foam pits when she was gaining enough confidence to walk a balance beam. Now she's in grad school most of the way across country. Don't think that would work for me.


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## commanche (Dec 10, 2014)

Great thread! Really appreciate it. I could really use the list for my reference as I am looking for GMT watch now. The "True" Gmt is a welcome bonus.

What do you think of the new Montblanc Heritage GMT that was introduced early this year? Are they true GMT as well?


----------



## commanche (Dec 10, 2014)

Oh since I saw JLC on the list, how about JLC duoface reverso?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

whoischich said:


> bb-man said:
> 
> 
> > Seiko should make a solar version of this. I have a kinetic and am not a fan of the movement.
> ...


It's not so much the function of the movement for me, but the size of the watches they put those movements into... Way too large for my tastes.


----------



## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

commanche said:


> Great thread! Really appreciate it. I could really use the list for my reference as I am looking for GMT watch now. The "True" Gmt is a welcome bonus.
> 
> What do you think of the new Montblanc Heritage GMT that was introduced early this year? Are they true GMT as well?
> View attachment 14354249


That's an ETA 2893 movement... so no. It doesn't have an independent hour hand.


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

[email protected]_180 said:


> You've done an admirable job of what you clearly explained your intent to be. Frankly, it's the most comprehensive compilation of the topic I've read, period. 'Great work, and thank you for having done so. A point somewhat missed, is that you also attracted and welcomed informed responses. If only most threads were as accomplished..
> 
> _The cheap seats always take cheap shots. It's....... cheap._


Thank you for the kind words...glad the thread is coming in handy for you and others!


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



BlueLampPost said:


> Really enjoying this thread (apart from the banal semantics objections).
> 
> How about the montblanc geosphere as a unique world timer option?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the suggestions...I'll look into them. As much as I'd like to include every model from every manufacturer, there are quite a lot with many variations so it's very difficult...hence my cop out of stating that some manufacturers have multiple models available. I also excluded the very expensive brands (VC, Zenith, Chopard, etc) but I will add the IWC Ingénieur GMT (as I already knew this one applied) and will look into the Eterna Kon Tiki...thanks!


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

georges zaslavsky said:


> Some are missing :
> -the Breitling B04 Chronomat GMT
> -the Breitling B04 Navitimer GMT
> -the Breitling Transocean Unitime
> ...


Thanks! See the response in my post right above this one


----------



## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

commanche said:


> Oh since I saw JLC on the list, how about JLC duoface reverso?


Does this have a jumping hour hand?


----------



## BlueLampPost (Mar 6, 2018)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



robi1138 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions...I'll look into them. As much as I'd like to include every model from every manufacturer, there are quite a lot with many variations so it's very difficult...hence my cop out of stating that some manufacturers have multiple models available. I also excluded the very expensive brands (VC, Zenith, Chopard, etc) but I will add the IWC Ingénieur GMT (as I already knew this one applied) and will look into the Eterna Kon Tiki...thanks!


I see--that would truly be exhausting to catalogue every distinct model. I only suggested the Chopard because it costs the same as the UN.


----------



## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

*Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



robi1138 said:


> Does this have a jumping hour hand?


It does, but the watch has two faces operated by one movement, so both are 12-hour hands and which is local and which is the distant timezone is a bit arbitrary. Some of the models had AM/PM indicators for the distant zone.

Here's the current version, at a price similar to a Rolex GMT Master II.










Rick "it's on my lotto-winnings list" Denney


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## BundyBear (Mar 3, 2018)

Okay. Here's a bummer. I travel to cities where the time zone is out by half an hour. The jumping hour hand or "true GMT" watches are not so true after all. This is where the smart phone is the winner.

I have a Ball Watch that I can change the GMT hand but it goes in 3 steps (like what??) for each hour so while it can show 20 minute differences, it can't show the half hour time difference.

Anyone know of a real GMT watch that can set both the hour and minute hands separately from the main dial?


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Dogbert_is_fat said:


> Okay. Here's a bummer. I travel to cities where the time zone is out by half an hour. The jumping hour hand or "true GMT" watches are not so true after all. This is where the smart phone is the winner.
> 
> I have a Ball Watch that I can change the GMT hand but it goes in 3 steps (like what??) for each hour so while it can show 20 minute differences, it can't show the half hour time difference.
> 
> Anyone know of a real GMT watch that can set both the hour and minute hands separately from the main dial?


Vacheron Constantin makes a world timer that can be set to 15-minute time zones.










Rick "bring your checkbook" Denney


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## WIS_Chronomaster (Sep 17, 2007)

You dont see that watch a lot but its a fantastic one !


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## BlueLampPost (Mar 6, 2018)

Dogbert_is_fat said:


> Okay. Here's a bummer. I travel to cities where the time zone is out by half an hour. The jumping hour hand or "true GMT" watches are not so true after all. This is where the smart phone is the winner.
> 
> I have a Ball Watch that I can change the GMT hand but it goes in 3 steps (like what??) for each hour so while it can show 20 minute differences, it can't show the half hour time difference.
> 
> Anyone know of a real GMT watch that can set both the hour and minute hands separately from the main dial?


If your budget allows, Parmigiani Fleurier Toric Hemispheres retrograde can be adjusted to the minute.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

Dogbert_is_fat said:


> Okay. Here's a bummer. I travel to cities where the time zone is out by half an hour. The jumping hour hand or "true GMT" watches are not so true after all. This is where the smart phone is the winner.
> 
> I have a Ball Watch that I can change the GMT hand but it goes in 3 steps (like what??) for each hour so while it can show 20 minute differences, it can't show the half hour time difference.
> 
> Anyone know of a real GMT watch that can set both the hour and minute hands separately from the main dial?


Mentioned upthread, the Glashutte Original Senator Cosmopolite:









If that's not expensive enough for you, try the MB&F LM1


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## commanche (Dec 10, 2014)

That GO is the king of gmt watch. If only it were smaller


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## vkalia (Oct 26, 2014)

Rdenney said:


> Vacheron Constantin makes a world timer that can be set to 15-minute time zones.


I've seen that but i have never understood how it can show 2 sets of minutes, where one is offset by 30' or 15' from the other: it still just has only one minute hand. Eg, let's say it is 1pm in the US and 10:30 in India - how does it show the 30' difference?

Have had a long discussion with a friend about it, and it still wasnt clear to me. All i see is a city dial with a few more cities added - my friend assured me the movement was more complex than that but wasnt able to tell me how it works.


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## Tohono Rat (Apr 23, 2018)

Dogbert_is_fat said:


> Okay. Here's a bummer. I travel to cities where the time zone is out by half an hour. The jumping hour hand or "true GMT" watches are not so true after all. This is where the smart phone is the winner.
> 
> I have a Ball Watch that I can change the GMT hand but it goes in 3 steps (like what??) for each hour so while it can show 20 minute differences, it can't show the half hour time difference.
> 
> Anyone know of a real GMT watch that can set both the hour and minute hands separately from the main dial?


35 time zones including 15-minute and 30-minute offsets.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

vkalia said:


> I've seen that but i have never understood how it can show 2 sets of minutes, where one is offset by 30' or 15' from the other: it still just has only one minute hand. Eg, let's say it is 1pm in the US and 10:30 in India - how does it show the 30' difference?
> 
> Have had a long discussion with a friend about it, and it still wasnt clear to me. All i see is a city dial with a few more cities added - my friend assured me the movement was more complex than that but wasnt able to tell me how it works.


It moves the minutes hand a quarter hour when you select that time zone. With that watch, you select the timezone you want to view for local time.

Rick "who saw a video of its operation a while back" Denney


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Rdenney said:


> It moves the minutes hand a quarter hour when you select that time zone. With that watch, you select the timezone you want to view for local time.
> 
> Rick "who saw a video of its operation a while back" Denney


See staring around 5:00 into this video,


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

mleok said:


> See staring around 5:00 into this video,


But they were talking about the Vacheron Overseas World Timer...


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## vkalia (Oct 26, 2014)

Rdenney said:


> It moves the minutes hand a quarter hour when you select that time zone. With that watch, you select the timezone you want to view for local time.
> 
> Rick "who saw a video of its operation a while back" Denney


But wouldnt that throw off reading the local time?

Do you have a link to the video, perchance? I think i may need to see this myself to understand.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk


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## BundyBear (Mar 3, 2018)

kak1154 said:


> Mentioned upthread, the Glashutte Original Senator Cosmopolite:
> 
> View attachment 14357461


Thanks so much! I will definitely go and look at this.


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## Morubozu (Aug 1, 2019)




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## elom44 (Apr 26, 2017)

A fascinating thread, to which I would like to add my Oris Classic Worldtimer (Ref 690 7485).


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## vkalia (Oct 26, 2014)

Morubozu said:


> View attachment 14362229


Does this actually have an independently adjustable hour hand? Or is it the GMT hand that is adjustable?

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## Morubozu (Aug 1, 2019)

The movement is ETA 2893.2 independently adjustable hand


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

Morubozu said:


> The movement is ETA 2893.2 independently adjustable hand


The hour hand is not independently adjustable. That's what this thread is about - watches where you can change only the hour hand, and not have the other hands move.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)




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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


>


I like your thinking. Nice, solid watches at a reasonable price...nice collection!


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

vkalia said:


> But wouldnt that throw off reading the local time?
> 
> Do you have a link to the video, perchance? I think i may need to see this myself to understand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk







As long as you know what timezone you are in, you can set the reference city for that timezone to the 6-o'clock pointer and the main hands will show local time. That's true even for quarter-hour timezones, which are shown on the city ring-turning the crown moves the hands in 15-minute increments without hacking.

Of course, I'm responding to the question about quarter-hour timezones. Unlike many of the watches the OP suspected were beyond the price point making it a useful entry in his catalog, this one really is priced beyond what most mortals can afford. But it is still beyond cool.

Rick "way beyond a GMT, but the ultimate travel watch for the wealthy" Denney


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## vkalia (Oct 26, 2014)

Rdenney said:


>


Super, thanks - yeah, that's what i thought: the quarter and half hour offsets are figured out by looking at the markings on the dial (the red dots for Caracas, Kathmandu and Delhi, for example) and adding that to the time - there is no way to read the time in the offset cities directly off the dial.

I am trying to figure out how this would work when you ARE in Kathmandu or Delhi - you'd have to remember that the black hour markers are now offset and add 30 or 45 minutes to the time, as needed.

Still, this is better than me trying to figure out the whole "in which direction do i change the minutes hand so that I have to ADD 30 minutes to figure out the time in Delhi or Colombo"....


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

vkalia said:


> Super, thanks - yeah, that's what i thought: the quarter and half hour offsets are figured out by looking at the markings on the dial (the red dots for Caracas, Kathmandu and Delhi, for example) and adding that to the time - there is no way to read the time in the offset cities directly off the dial.
> 
> I am trying to figure out how this would work when you ARE in Kathmandu or Delhi - you'd have to remember that the black hour markers are now offset and add 30 or 45 minutes to the time, as needed.
> 
> Still, this is better than me trying to figure out the whole "in which direction do i change the minutes hand so that I have to ADD 30 minutes to figure out the time in Delhi or Colombo"....


No. If I was in Delhi, I would use the crown to move that red dot to the 6 o'clock marker, and then read local time off the main hands. It's like the jumping hour of a Rolex, but it jumps in 15-minute increments instead. I could then read home time (or any other time zone) from the hour and city ring. Only then would I have to note the 15-minute offset. But I could also use the crown to move that dot to 6, read the time back home, and then move it back to Delhi's dot. It's self-referencing, unlike a GMT watch.

Rick "four crown detents" Denney


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Getting away from travelers GMT watches, where fractional-hour timezones are concerned, and not having a budget for those real high end examples, that's the point I'd go digital, or find a dual-time watch. The JLC reverso is a great, if expensive example, there are others, including very affordable quartz options.


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## vkalia (Oct 26, 2014)

Rdenney said:


> No. If I was in Delhi, I would use the crown to move that red dot to the 6 o'clock marker, and then read local time off the main hands. It's like the jumping hour of a Rolex, but it jumps in 15-minute increments instead. I could then read home time (or any other time zone) from the hour and city ring. Only then would I have to note the 15-minute offset. But I could also use the crown to move that dot to 6, read the time back home, and then move it back to Delhi's dot. It's self-referencing, unlike a GMT watch.


Yeah, that's what i meant as well (I didnt explain it too properly - I was referring to reading world time if you were in Delhi or Kathmandu): need to remember the offset when trying to figure out the time in other time zones (and figuring out whether to add or subtract the 15' from the time - although this would come fairly quickly after one or two tries).

Turning the crown is indeed a useful workaround if you get confused, true. And this is still better than the traditional GMTs, yeah.

The Parmigiani Fleurer referenced earlier does indeed solve this perfectly - has a second time zone which can be set independently to the minute and once set, get slaved to the main time. That alone almost put it on my to-buy list, till i saw the size. 42 or 43mm, all white dial and thin bezel... umm, no.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Getting away from travelers GMT watches, where fractional-hour timezones are concerned, and not having a budget for those real high end examples, that's the point I'd go digital, or find a dual-time watch. The JLC reverso is a great, if expensive example, there are others, including very affordable quartz options.


The Alpina and Hamilton in particular can be had for under $1,000


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## Tohono Rat (Apr 23, 2018)

vkalia said:


> Yeah, that's what i meant as well (I didnt explain it too properly - I was referring to reading world time if you were in Delhi or Kathmandu): need to remember the offset when trying to figure out the time in other time zones (and figuring out whether to add or subtract the 15' from the time - although this would come fairly quickly after one or two tries).
> 
> Turning the crown is indeed a useful workaround if you get confused, true. And this is still better than the traditional GMTs, yeah.
> 
> The Parmigiani Fleurer referenced earlier does indeed solve this perfectly - has a second time zone which can be set independently to the minute and once set, get slaved to the main time. That alone almost put it on my to-buy list, till i saw the size. 42 or 43mm, all white dial and thin bezel... umm, no.


Doesn't the GO solve this more elegantly than the PF? Yes, perhaps it is too large for you. But it seems to be the only mechanical watch about which I am aware that is designed to address every time zone in the world. Technically (and hypothetically), it could also address even new TZs with odd off-sets as you can manually adjust it to the minute separately from the home time.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

Tohono Rat said:


> Doesn't the GO solve this more elegantly than the PF?


Yes, I think so. But it's not a world timer where you can see all the time zones at once. So if that's important to you, it doesn't quite work.

It's akin to Nomos Zurich Weltzeit in that regard - clever ways of showing a lot of time zones, but only one at a time. (Though the Nomos of course only has the standard 24 time zones.)


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> The Alpina and Hamilton in particular can be had for under $1,000


I guess I missed something -- which Alpina and Hamilton watches feature a traveler's GMT function with 15/30 minute functionality?


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> I guess I missed something -- which Alpina and Hamilton watches feature a traveler's GMT function with 15/30 minute functionality?


No, I misread your post...I thought you were getting back to just regular traveler's GMTs...my bad. Alpina and Hamilton only have one hour jumping hour-hands.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Actually found another inexpensive "true" gmt...the Certina DS Action GMT. Can be had for around $600 on the gray market. Will add it to the list when I get a chance


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

robi1138 said:


> Actually found another inexpensive "true" gmt...the Certina DS Action GMT. Can be had for around $600 on the gray market. Will add it to the list when I get a chance


Yes, I would look for the new Swatch group exclusive ETA C07.661 movement, which is used in the Certina DS Action GMT you mentioned, as well as the Mido Multifort Dual Time (M038.429.11.041.00), as well as the Rado Centrix Automatic GMT. I find the Mido Multifort to be quite attractive.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Well it doesn't seem like I can edit my original post so I have to add any new pics here.

I mentioned the Certina DS Action GMT the other day. mleok added that the Mido Multifort Dual Time (but not the Multifort GMT, btw) and the Rado Centrix Automatic GMT/UTC use the same movement (ETA C07.66) as the Certina, also making them "true"/traveler GMT watches. Though I've been able to verify that the Certina is just such a GMT (with jumping hour hand) I have not, as of yet, been able to verify that the Mido and Rado are also. While it's almost certainly the case, I'm holding off on adding those pics for now and just adding the Certina. Thank you to mleok for bringing this to my attention though and once they can be verified, they will be added as well. I'm glad a few more less expensive models of these GMTs have been found.

Btw, it appears that the Certina's date changes with the hour hand (not the GMT hand) making it more like a "true" GMT rather than what I call a traveler's GMT (where the date changes with the 24 hour hand).


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## Tohono Rat (Apr 23, 2018)

robi1138 said:


> Well it doesn't seem like I can edit my original post so I have to add any new pics here.
> 
> I mentioned the Certina DS Action GMT the other day. mleok added that the Mido Multifort Dual Time (but not the Multifort GMT, btw) and the Rado Centrix Automatic GMT/UTC use the same movement (ETA C07.66) as the Certina, also making them "true"/traveler GMT watches. Though I've been able to verify that the Certina is just such a GMT (with jumping hour hand) I have not, as of yet, been able to verify that the Mido and Rado are also. While it's almost certainly the case, I'm holding off on adding those pics for now and just adding the Certina. Thank you to mleok for bringing this to my attention though and once they can be verified, they will be added as well. I'm glad a few more less expensive models of these GMTs have been found..


So, what is the rationale to not include expensive GMTs? GO, PP, ALS, VC etc. make watches that you would consider "true/traveller" GMTs. Some are spectacular. If you want a "comprehensive" list, it has to be much longer. Here is a very small start.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Tohono Rat said:


> So, what is the rationale to not include expensive GMTs? GO, PP, ALS, VC etc. make watches that you would consider "true/traveller" GMTs. Some are spectacular. If you want a "comprehensive" list, it has to be much longer. Here is a very small start.


Takes way too long, most people can't afford those watches, wasn't trying for a complete list, too lazy, don't have the time (or interest)...take your pick.


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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

Just stumbled across Dornblueth 99.10 WELTZEIT. 
Couldn't figure out the price, but guessing less than Rolex. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

In the Immortal words of Monty Python....And now for something completely different...

Aurora, a true GMT with a unique movement




























UTC/GMT
All possible timezones worldwide (96)
Perpetual calendar including leapyears
Day/Date and Month
Countdown timer to 32 hours
Stopwatch chronograph to 32 hours
Moonphase
Power save mode
Unique Soprod Mecatronic Swiss movement
4-7 year battery life

There is an online clock version I use on my old iPad as a wall clock.

Gavox demo


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> In the Immortal words of Monty Python....And now for something completely different...
> 
> Aurora, a true GMT with a unique movement
> 
> ...


Imagine if they could do that with a mechanical movement ;-)

Nice watch though!


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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

A couple from swatch group using their ETA C07.661 movement. 

















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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

nodnar said:


> A couple from swatch group using their ETA C07.661 movement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I added the Certina to the new list on page 20 of this thread (as I can't update my original post anymore). Haven't confirmed yet that the Mido (or Rado, for that matter) that use the same movement work identically to the Certina but I don't see why they wouldn't...I just haven't seen it spelled out yet and I don't want to speculate.


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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

I've followed this thread with interest! I too prefer the travellers gmt function, and so I have a particular preference for independently adjustable hour hands.

I replaced my office-style gmt Bremont ALT1 ZT/BK:










For this Omega 2535.80:










The Bremont is a much better time keeper, gaining less than a second a day over 290 days, but the constant adjusting of the gmt hand was problematic when travelling.

Interestingly, now I have the Omega, I note that I actually need three functions on my gmt: one to track gmt (where my mum lives), one to trace my home time (where my family is), and one to track local time (where I am). This means the Omega won't work for me because of the diver's bezel insert!

Being fond of a bezel and not a 0-24 chapter ring, this means my selection is reduced even further. I'm thinking of going back to the 116710LV from Rolex or trying to find an aftermarket blue 0-24 bezel for the Omega!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MissileExpert (Mar 18, 2018)

Here's a new one I discovered this week. It's a Citizen BJ7111-86L. Japanese Domestic Market. Jump hour hand GMT. Sharp looking watch with 200M WR as well, titanium case and bracelet, Eco-Drive, and sapphire crystal.


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## Xaltotun (Apr 19, 2007)

It's relatively expensive, too bad! I would have loved to pick it up!


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## Xaltotun (Apr 19, 2007)

I could not find an affordable 'true' / 'traveler' GMT which was not either too big (Certina, Citizen, oris Worldtimer Propilot, etc.), too expensive (Explorer II, Tudor GMT, etc.), or lacking water resistance / screw down crown (Mido Multifort). I could probably afford the Tudor (I have some money put aside for a GMT purchase), but I also needed the watch to be inconspicuous and discrete on the wrist, because of some of the places I travel to for work. (Incidentally years ago, before I started to travel for work, I had an Omega Great White and sold it. Boy do I regret it now! o| )

So in the end I settled, _for now_, on a Casio 35th Anniversary Metal Edition. It provides me with the information I need (home time + travel zone time on a same screen; on the picture below, the upper right corner shows my home time) albeit in an understandably non-mechanical way. I can switch time zones either with an app on my phone or at the push of a button.

At least I don't have to worry about damaging a nice watch in the plane!


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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

*Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*

Just saw this pop up. 








Not sure I like the date and gmt hands being similar. But it's got "chrono" pushers to jump the main hour hand back and forth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

*Re: Guide to "true"/traveler's GMT watches (with gallery)*



nodnar said:


> Just saw this pop up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool... I was curious what movement it used, and found this on their website:

_"The caliber was uniquely developed for the special requirements of the Globetimer UTC - and is the second in-house movement in the history of Porsche Design."_


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## Michael Day (Feb 19, 2016)

robi1138 said:


> *UPDATED: 7/27/19 (see below for update specifics)*
> 
> It took me a long time to find an affordable "true" GMT watch that I liked. It took even longer to find a list of available "true" GMTs. As there is no comprehensive one, I had to do a lot of reading in various forums and threads. The first issue was getting past the posts from those who didn't understand what a traveler's or "true" GMT was. So let's get that out of the way first:
> 
> ...


Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. Can you inform me on the previous versions of the Explorer II as to them also being True GMT's. I'm looking at a 16570 Polar Explorer in either the 3185 or 3186 variety and am a little confused as to these also being true GMT watches.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Michael Day said:


> Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. Can you inform me on the previous versions of the Explorer II as to them also being True GMT's. I'm looking at a 16570 Polar Explorer in either the 3185 or 3186 variety and am a little confused as to these also being true GMT watches.


Hi, sorry I just this post...haven't been on this thread in ages.

I'm not an expert by an stretch on the various versions of the Explorer II unfortunately. Actually you could say I know squat about them, lol. You might get a definitive answer in the Rolex forum, if you haven't already.

Happy New Year!


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

Duplicate from above


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## 10Swiss10 (Apr 17, 2019)

This thread is super helpful. Just wish Squale/Steinhart made tru travelers GMT watches. As someone who lives on the MI/WI border I actually change time zones a few times a year. The easy solution is a 12 hour GMT bezel but im in the market for something a little more fun.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Michael Day said:


> Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. Can you inform me on the previous versions of the Explorer II as to them also being True GMT's. I'm looking at a 16570 Polar Explorer in either the 3185 or 3186 variety and am a little confused as to these also being true GMT watches.


Per my earlier posts, I dislike the term "true GMT", so suffice to say that the 2 most recent versions of the Explorer II (16570 & 216570) both have adjustable (quickset) 12-hour hands. In fact, the 3186 in late 16570s is the exact same movement that was used in the GMT-Master IIs of the same era (116710).


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Another 8F56 movement Seiko with travelers IAHH, the MX series SATF001. Also picked up an SLT079, but Mrs-ish mconlonx immediately claimed it for her own...

Like other 8F56 watches, the SATF001 is a discontinued model in a discontinued line with marmite styling -- integrated bracelet with wonky, signed endlinks, and fluid design cues may not be to everyone's taste. But titanium case and bracelet, sapphire crystal with AR, 200m WR, 24hr bezel, and screw-down crown. This was bought second-hand with plenty of scratches typical of daily use Ti Seiko, but at <$200...? Winnah!


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## rfortson (Feb 18, 2012)

I know Oris was mentioned earlier, but I'll go ahead and add my traveler's GMT to the group. Just received it a few days ago. IAHH both forward and back and controls the date (forward/back) as well. A limited edition from a few years back that celebrates Sir Sandford Fleming, Scottish engineer who promoted standard time zones based on Greenwich and the prime meridian. Apparently it really was a limited edition as I couldn't find much out there about this watch, which is a shame. Nice looking watch and handy for traveling. Plus, it won't break the bank.


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## Rigel (Aug 13, 2009)

When you disembark and set foot on foreign ground, your best friend is:

View attachment 20200123_233616.jpg


Just find a place where you can see the sky, press two buttons and within 30 seconds, your friend will tell you where you are and what the local time in that city and your hometown (along with several other stuff ) is...


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## kak1154 (Mar 2, 2010)

rfortson said:


> I know Oris was mentioned earlier, but I'll go ahead and add my traveler's GMT to the group. Just received it a few days ago. IAHH both forward and back and controls the date (forward/back) as well. A limited edition from a few years back that celebrates Sir Sandford Fleming, Scottish engineer who promoted standard time zones based on Greenwich and the prime meridian. Apparently it really was a limited edition as I couldn't find much out there about this watch, which is a shame. Nice looking watch and handy for traveling. Plus, it won't break the bank.


I have the same watch. Wonderful for business travel, and a steal when compared to the Ulysse Nardin iterations with the same functionality.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

rfortson said:


> I know Oris was mentioned earlier, but I'll go ahead and add my traveler's GMT to the group. Just received it a few days ago. IAHH both forward and back and controls the date (forward/back) as well. A limited edition from a few years back that celebrates Sir Sandford Fleming, Scottish engineer who promoted standard time zones based on Greenwich and the prime meridian. Apparently it really was a limited edition as I couldn't find much out there about this watch, which is a shame. Nice looking watch and handy for traveling. Plus, it won't break the bank.


Nice. What's the lug-to-lug? Oris' web site only lists 42mm as the diameter.


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## rfortson (Feb 18, 2012)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Nice. What's the lug-to-lug? Oris' web site only lists 42mm as the diameter.


I need to do a proper review/measurement. I'm guessing around 48 or so as it seems to fit like I like, and some 42mm watches hang over on me.

I'll check it and update this post.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## arkiemark (Oct 31, 2011)

Only recently purchased a couple of GMTs and thought they were all the same but reading thru this thread I'm happy to get the jumping hour hand version instead of the jumping gmt hand version.

BTW- All Grand Seikos have "true" GMT function with the jumping local hour hand. Here are mine:


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

robi1138 said:


> *UPDATED: 7/27/19 (see below for update specifics)*
> 
> It took me a long time to find an affordable "true" GMT watch that I liked. It took even longer to find a list of available "true" GMTs. As there is no comprehensive one, I had to do a lot of reading in various forums and threads. The first issue was getting past the posts from those who didn't understand what a traveler's or "true" GMT was. So let's get that out of the way first:
> 
> ...


Just discover this Alpina Startimer GMT. Pretty interesting. 
I wasn't very attract by Alpina style so far but that one I do. 
I like the fact that you cannot move the 24 inside bezel like common ETA "GMT" caliber. At least you have the GMT as reference (as long as the watch doesn't stop ). 
This jumping forward hour is very handy. I understand that it would be better if it was both way...but at that price...it's already a good option. 
If you need to set local time back, you go all around by jumping forward, and then you change the date if needed?

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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

Julien Portside said:


> Just discover this Alpina Startimer GMT. Pretty interesting.
> I wasn't very attract by Alpina style so far but that one I do.
> I like the fact that you cannot move the 24 inside bezel like common ETA "GMT" caliber. At least you have the GMT as reference (as long as the watch doesn't stop ).
> This jumping forward hour is very handy. I understand that it would be better if it was both way...but at that price...it's already a good option.
> ...


Yes. So I've seen on YouTube 
Alpina Startimer Pilot Heritage GMT - So Close

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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I wish more dual twelve hour hand watches were available......


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## BBCDoc (Dec 23, 2008)

True traveller GMT

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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I wish more dual twelve hour hand watches were available......


Using a 12 hour hand to track a second timezone eliminates the ability to convey AM and PM for the second timezone. The wearer would have to track this mentally.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

MX793 said:


> Using a 12 hour hand to track a second timezone eliminates the ability to convey AM and PM for the second timezone. The wearer would have to track this mentally.


I think it's manageable !!!
And easier to read than certain dial.

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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Julien Portside said:


> I think it's manageable !!!
> And easier to read than certain dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you can remember that the second timezone you are tracking is more or less than 12 hours from your current time, it would seem to me that it would also be manageable just to remember how many hours ahead or behind that timezone is and forgo having the extra complication on the watch.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

MX793 said:


> If you can remember that the second timezone you are tracking is more or less than 12 hours from your current time, it would seem to me that it would also be manageable just to remember how many hours ahead or behind that timezone is and forgo having the extra complication on the watch.


I dont really care about AM/PM, when I am on vacation I dont need to know if its night or morning at home. I just want to leave one hand on my home time and one for my new time. Plus its a cleaner look when Im home since the hands hide behind one an other.

For those reasons, that is also why a 12 hour bezel suits my needs just fine, but doesnt look as nice


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

MX793 said:


> If you can remember that the second timezone you are tracking is more or less than 12 hours from your current time, it would seem to me that it would also be manageable just to remember how many hours ahead or behind that timezone is and forgo having the extra complication on the watch.


I dont really care about AM/PM, when I am on vacation I dont need to know if its night or morning at home. I just want to leave one hand on my home time and one for my new time. Plus its a cleaner look when Im home since the hands hide behind one an other.

For those reasons, that is also why a 12 hour bezel suits my needs just fine, but doesnt look as nice


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

Or a watch with a 24h bezel that you can turn. Without 3rd hand. 
I saw an Enicar Sherpa like that


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

I don't know if the Breitling is a "true GMT": adjust local time without changing the home time. But despite that I love the style of the watch, I find the dial not as clear as the Enicar...


















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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Julien Portside said:


> Or a watch with a 24h bezel that you can turn. Without 3rd hand.
> I saw an Enicar Sherpa like that
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, that solution works well, but that only works if it's a 24-hr watch (hour hand makes 1 rotation per day instead of 2).


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

MX793 said:


> Sure, that solution works well, but that only works if it's a 24-hr watch (hour hand makes 1 rotation per day instead of 2).


 good point. 
I don't know if the Enicar above is a 24hr watch 

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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Julien Portside said:


> good point.
> I don't know if the Enicar above is a 24hr watch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looking more closely (on my phone, small screen), the Enicar has a 4th hand. It also has 12 main indices, so I'd say the primary time is 12-hr.

Some versions of the Glycine Airman use a 24 hour movement and just a bezel to track the second timezone. No extra hands.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

MX793 said:


> Looking more closely (on my phone, small screen), the Enicar has a 4th hand. It also has 12 main indices, so I'd say the primary time is 12-hr.
> 
> Some versions of the Glycine Airman use a 24 hour movement and just a bezel to track the second timezone. No extra hands.


Yes a 4th hand. So that one make only rotation a day you mean?

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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Julien Portside said:


> Yes a 4th hand. So that one make only rotation a day you mean?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The main hand (local time) is 12-hr, so 2 rotations per day. The secondary hand is 24 hrs, so 1 rotation per day. This is consistent with most GMT watches on the market.

If you want a watch that can track multiple timezones, including indicating AM/PM, without extra hands, you need something like this Glycine


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## KAS118 (Mar 23, 2014)

I have one of these Tissot Navigator's.

You can tell plenty of time zones - the only problem is that the city names are difficult to read.

Furthermore, the black numbers around the polished bezel are also difficult to read, and coupled with the polished hands you really have to peer at it to tell the time.

The lack of decent lume makes it rather useless as a travel watch.

It was after I got this I realised why I liked Divers, Pilots and Field watches so much.










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## sgallant (Aug 17, 2020)

I've been following this thread for a while and have been searching endlessly for a budget friendly "True GMT".

I finally stumbled upon the Certina brand (Swatch Group) and discovered all of their GMT's are "True GMT" (you can jump the hour hand forwards and backwards even through the date change independent of the GMT hand).

I personally picked up the *DS PODIUM GMT *Reference: C034.455.11.057.00 for $275 and it has been amazing so far. Quartz, yes, but it's accurate to +-10 sec/year which is nice when traveling to know it's dead on accurate. Also has Sapphire and solid end-links etc.

I actually really like how the GMT is in the subdial and has the light/dark ring which makes it super easy and quick to see the GMT or Home Time. In particular I like that the "Daylight hours" are on the top of the subdial and night hours on the bottom as opposed to a typical 24 scale Like on the Rolex GMT Master II where daytime hours are on the bottom.

This watch also has pretty decent Lume on the hands, GMT hand, and pips at hour markers.

















But, they also have the *DS ACTION GMT *Reference: C032.429.11.051.00 for like $595 which is an automatic with 80hr power reserve, sapphire, etc.









Certina doesn't have any dealers in the US unfortunately but they are pretty easily obtainable on Jomashop etc.

Hopefully this helps someone! Great thread!


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

MX793 said:


> Using a 12 hour hand to track a second timezone eliminates the ability to convey AM and PM for the second timezone. The wearer would have to track this mentally.


Most dual 12 hour hand watches also have an AM/PM indicator for the home timezone. For example, my Montblanc Heritage Dual Time has a 24 hour subdial. Some other watches just have a small dot on the dial which changes color depending on whether it is AM or PM.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Mido also has a number of interesting watches that use the ETA C07.661 calibre that is also used by Certina and Tissot (all part of the Swatch group). I like both of these blue dialed variants, and the Ocean Star GMT in particular looks really attractive. Unfortunately, that colorway appears to only come on the strap, so I would have to buy the bracelet separately.

Mido Multifort Dual Time










Mido Ocean Star GMT


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## sgallant (Aug 17, 2020)

mleok said:


> Mido also has a number of interesting watches that use the ETA C07.661 calibre that is also used by Certina and Tissot (all part of the Swatch group). I like both of these blue dialed variants, and the Ocean Star GMT in particular looks really attractive. Unfortunately, that colorway appears to only come on the strap, so I would have to buy the bracelet separately.
> 
> Mido Multifort Dual Time
> 
> ...


Dang... that Ocean Star GMT looks good. I love that it still has the timing bezel instead of a 24hr bezel.


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## xbarx1 (Mar 5, 2018)

I'm not sure what the movement is in this Nivada Anarctic GMT or if it's a true GMT according to the author's guideline. It shares some elements with the Enicar Sherpa GMT but not sure if there's a manufacturing partnership there or not. The checkered GMT hand and the bezel insert are remarkably similar.


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## Commisar (May 2, 2019)

Fortis and Norqain have just released "true" GMT watches with (probably) the same movement.









Fortis Further Expands Their Flieger Lineup with a New (True) GMT - Worn & Wound


We look at the all new Fortis Fliger with classic pilot watch stylings and WERK 13 movement from Switzerland.




wornandwound.com













Introducing The Norqain Freedom 60 Collection, With Manufacture Calibers - Worn & Wound


We look at the new Norqain Freedom 60 collection, featuring manufacture calibers from Kenissi at a great price.




wornandwound.com





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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

xbarx1 said:


> I'm not sure what the movement is in this Nivada Anarctic GMT or if it's a true GMT according to the author's guideline. It shares some elements with the Enicar Sherpa GMT but not sure if there's a manufacturing partnership there or not. The checkered GMT hand and the bezel insert are remarkably similar.
> View attachment 15518843


That's a great catch. The tropical dial is amazing 
Yes definitely the Enicar sherpa inspiration but not brand new released, which is good.

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## leidai5 (Jun 2, 2017)

Roadmaster Pilot GMT







shop.ballwatch.ch





This looks promising. Interesting quick set feature on the local hour hand. It's priced a bit awkwardly though. Too high to fall into the affordable category, yet too low for traditional luxury prices.


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## nodnar (Oct 7, 2016)

Looks like Ball is coming out with one. Pusher jumping hour. 









(Just saw the post above... jinx)

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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

sgallant said:


> Dang... that Ocean Star GMT looks good. I love that it still has the timing bezel instead of a 24hr bezel.


If only it weren't the size of a dinner plate! 40mm and 13mm thick and is have been all over it!

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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I wish more dual twelve hour hand watches were available......


Me too. If I'd the coin right now I'd be all over the '90s Tudor Big Block 79170:









The Omega Spectre is pretty lovely too - but it's consistently $6k more than the standard 300, and the only difference I can see is the bezel and clasp... 










The Heuer Autivia is nice, but at 15mm thick it's a lump on your wrist (I'm not much into beads-of-rice bracelets either).










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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

Michael Day said:


> Thanks for this info. Much appreciated. Can you inform me on the previous versions of the Explorer II as to them also being True GMT's. I'm looking at a 16570 Polar Explorer in either the 3185 or 3186 variety and am a little confused as to these also being true GMT watches.


The 3185 and 3186 are both 'true' GMTs. The early Exp. IIs had the 3075 movement in them, and the gmt hands were (like the 1675s) fixed to the hour hand (and thus rotated simply once every 14 hours). This means that the classic 'McQueen' Expy was a 12/24 hour watch only as the external bezel was fixed.

The jumping hour hand started with the caliber 3085 (which followed the caliber 3075). Indeed, the 'GMT Master II' designation (distinct from 'GMT Master') which came out after the ref. 16750/3, indicates the independent hour hand. Rolex had this nailed since the early '80s.

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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

The Oris Worldtimer allows the hour hand to jump back or forward by turning the bezel. 
The second time is based on 12h and indicate if you are AM/PM. 
So far the most useful, handy and clean dial if you change local time often, but you have to accept the 45mm on your wrist 










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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

I was disappointed that the new Baltic Aquascaphe was not a jumping hour hand, as it's a stunning piece.










When I chatted with Etienne, he said it was because they could not source such a movement (the same is true of Jason at Helios (who has said he won't issue another gmt until he can find a jumping hand movement). I assume this is because Baltic are not part of the Swatch gig and source Sprod movements for their pieces. I think this is the case for many manufacturers who don't have their own in-house stuff and who aren't part of Big-Swiss.

I am most disappointed that Bremont haven't pulled their finger out and tweaked a movement. Given the prices they charge, you think they'd be up there with the R&D and releasing a practical and innovative modification to the 7754 or 2893-2 they use - especially seeing that they promise in-house mods to their movements. And this comes from someone who owns a Bremont (come on, Brothers, sort yourselves out).

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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

I wish they would offer an affordable true GMT movement, they would just need to reverse engineer the modifications that Omega made to the ETA 2892-A2 to get their Omega 1128 calibre, which was used in the Omega Great White GMT.


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## sleepyhead123 (Jun 2, 2014)

It really would be nice if more companies made a GMT day date. Specifically a day date that is not a subdial (i.e. daydate like Rolex is preferred) for easy legibility. When I'm travelling on vacation it is nice to not only know what the date is but day of the week since I'm not on the job and it's easy to forget. GMT outperforms worldtimer due to all the crazy daylight savings, and since I don't travel for business, I really only need to know local and home. The only watch I'm aware of that does a windowed day date and GMT is Ball. And that thing looks like a diver, which is not to my tastes.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

sleepyhead123 said:


> It really would be nice if more companies made a GMT day date. Specifically a day date that is not a subdial (i.e. daydate like Rolex is preferred) for easy legibility. When I'm travelling on vacation it is nice to not only know what the date is but day of the week since I'm not on the job and it's easy to forget. GMT outperforms worldtimer due to all the crazy daylight savings, and since I don't travel for business, I really only need to know local and home. The only watch I'm aware of that does a windowed day date and GMT is Ball. And that thing looks like a diver, which is not to my tastes.


You can have a look at Damasko or Sinn. 
Day&Date windows with 12h bezel to track a second time. 
They look like tool watches, with Sinn you have more options

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## Commisar (May 2, 2019)

shedlock2000 said:


> I was disappointed that the new Baltic Aquascaphe was not a jumping hour hand, as it's a stunning piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Baltic is using the exact same GMT movement as Lorier is. Independent hour GMT mechanical movements seem as rare as hen's teeth it seems. Swatch group, Rolex, and Seiko all make them, as does one more company, Kenissi.

Kenissi sells their GMT movement to Fortis and Norqain at the moment.... However I doubt it's cheap.

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## BEEG (Jan 28, 2016)

mleok said:


> I wish they would offer an affordable true GMT movement, they would just need to reverse engineer the modifications that Omega made to the ETA 2892-A2 to get their Omega 1128 calibre, which was used in the Omega Great White GMT.


Isn't the problem that Swatch has a patent on their 2892-A2 modification, therefore if someone wants to do it - they have to find another mechanical way to enable the functionality?


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## sleepyhead123 (Jun 2, 2014)

Julien Portside said:


> You can have a look at Damasko or Sinn.
> Day&Date windows with 12h bezel to track a second time.
> They look like tool watches, with Sinn you have more options
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 They're close, but I'd rather have a GMT hand than a turning bezel so I can quickly look. I'm a little surprised since there are many basic movements with two of the three complications already (GMT hand, date, day of the week) and I figure given everyone likes extremely thick watches it wouldn't be too hard to add a module to get the third complication on there. I presume that's what Ball did given they are not a manufacturer.


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## webster126 (Apr 18, 2015)

I really like the Farer GMTs. So much so that I bought one, the silver Oxley LE


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## jkpa (Feb 8, 2014)

Wow that Mido is extremely good looking. 44M is not bad - it's a diver after all.


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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

sleepyhead123 said:


> They're close, but I'd rather have a GMT hand than a turning bezel so I can quickly look. I'm a little surprised since there are many basic movements with two of the three complications already (GMT hand, date, day of the week) and I figure given everyone likes extremely thick watches it wouldn't be too hard to add a module to get the third complication on there. I presume that's what Ball did given they are not a manufacturer.


I'm trying hard to get away from them! I love that Rolex can still make a 12mm gmt. I hate that the Tudor was 15mm (and top heavy).

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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

BEEG said:


> Isn't the problem that Swatch has a patent on their 2892-A2 modification, therefore if someone wants to do it - they have to find another mechanical way to enable the functionality?


IWC developed their own GMT module for a 2892 and avoided infringement. They use it in both their GMT watches and in the Big Pilot World Timer. Baume & Mercier use the same module in their Capeland World Timer.

Yes, it fixes the GMT hand (or world time ring) and jumps the 12-hour hand in the middle stem position. It also adjusts the date forwards and backwards with the 12-hour hand, for this Pacific flights that cross the International Date Line.

Rick "pictured upthread" Denney


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## leidai5 (Jun 2, 2017)

Looks like Seiko's 6R64 movement has a true/traveler GMT complication, yet they've done very little with it other than the SBEJ models. Wonder why they don't make this movement available to other manufacturers. That would probably really open up the possibilities for more affordable mechanical true GMTs. Maybe they're saving it for their own release of such a watch?


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## olske59 (May 26, 2019)

robi1138 said:


> *UPDATED: 7/27/19 (see below for update specifics)
> 
> "True" GMT/Traveler's GMT* is defined as a mechanical watch with a GMT or dual time function that *has an hour-hand that can be set independently in one-hour increments* without hacking the movement. Simply having a GMT


A "true" GMT can be a quartz movement as well - Seiko, Grand Seiko, Omega, Citizen and others have several models with independent hour hands, forward/backwards date. I have several of these.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

olske59 said:


> A "true" GMT can be a quartz movement as well - Seiko, Grand Seiko, Omega, Citizen and others have several models with independent hour hands, forward/backwards date. I have several of these.


True! Some quartz are even more convenient as you can set the local time without moving the GMT hand ("true GMT"). 
But for watches enthusiasts quartz are less interesting because of less mechanical parts 

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## Ziptie (Jun 25, 2016)

Julien Portside said:


> True! Some quartz are even more convenient as you can set the local time without moving the GMT hand ("true GMT").
> But for watches enthusiasts quartz are less interesting because of less mechanical parts
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean for SOME watch enthusiasts.


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## szewc (Nov 25, 2008)

New Ball Roadmaster Vanguard II. Traveler's GMT, local time hour hand jumps via push buttons, second time zone day/night indicator, day/date and timing bezel as a cherry on top. Too bad the GMT is still a custom module for SW-200 with crappy power reserve. Not a fan of contemporary design language, but the package as a whole looks very nice.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

Very informative thread, OP.

The Seiko Spring Drive GMT seems to be a great match to the "True" GMT function. For jetsetting and crossing timezones often and in short periods of time, Having an accurate and reliable watch would be a great stress reliever.


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## emiTstI (Feb 4, 2020)

JLC Polaris Geographic WT








I may have missed it in the listing or the many posts, if so, mea culpa: Sky-dweller









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## ManualWinder (Apr 15, 2020)

szewc said:


> New Ball Roadmaster Vanguard II. Traveler's GMT, local time hour hand jumps via push buttons, second time zone day/night indicator, day/date and timing bezel as a cherry on top. Too bad the GMT is still a custom module for SW-200 with crappy power reserve. Not a fan of contemporary design language, but the package as a whole looks very nice.


Since I couldn't find detailed technical info online, I email Ball and they informed me that pushers control the skeletonized hand, while the date and day are slaved to the local hour (non-skeletonized) hand. So, not exactly a "travelers" GMT watch. Ball has other model that is a "true GMT" however.


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## Bird-Dog (Jan 22, 2021)

This may have already been discussed (TL;DR), but I recently read an article that made the distinction as a "Travel" GMT vs an "Office" GMT, what the OP terms "True" GMT vs "standard" GMT.

The uses and benefits of the "True" or "Travel" GMT have been much discussed, so no need to rehash that. But there is some value in viewing the "standard" GMT as an "Office" GMT in that its primary 3-hand function is to keep "home" time while the 24-hr hand tracks the time in some remote location.

For example, I deal with overseas suppliers quite a bit, including arranging the occasional conference call or such. So it may be useful to have a quick and easy visual of the time there even while my seat is still firmly planted in my home office.

O'course, when I travel, I want the "True/Travel" GMT on my wrist. Therefore, I can justify owning both. Not that I actually need either one... I can do the math... and my cellphone works just fine too. So, as with many watches we own, it often really is simply a matter of finding a reason to justify buying it rather than any pressing need.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

I came across this Longines VHP GMT HAQ quartz in both 41mm and 43mm watch and it seems to tick all the boxes of true GMT in a quartz movement. Has some advanced features and flexibility to choose on the fly which time (home or away) is display on the main hands. Seems like the ultimate travel watch.

I don't like the design of the watch at all, but ETA movement and its functions seem perfect for traveling.


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## tommy_boy (Jul 11, 2010)

Glad I found this thread. Thanks, OP.

These two, then, are "true GMTs"? The hour hand jumps while the other hands (or in the Alpina's case, hands and disc) stay put.

I never bothered to understand what their difference was, in practical terms, from my other GMTs. Heck, it's not as if I can travel these days!



This one's the more comfortable of the two.


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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

tommy_boy said:


> I never bothered to understand what their difference was, in practical terms, from my other GMTs.


There isn't any functional difference. The practical difference is in how easy it is to set or change, for your particular circumstance. Other than that, they work the same.

If you are travelling and want the main hand to show local time, then a traveller's GMT makes that easy. You just move the main hour hand to set the time and the GMT hand doesn't move. If you're travelling with an office GMT (I like that term!), you would set the local time - which _also_ moves the GMT hand. Then you change the GMT hand back to home time. So it's somewhat less convenient.


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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

tommy_boy said:


> [/url]
> 
> This one's the more comfortable of the two.


I've been toying with picking up this reference, but the old-school shock absorbers and that hideous bezel puts me off. Those that love them, love them though! Glad you enjoy it!

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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

tommy_boy said:


> Glad I found this thread. Thanks, OP.
> 
> These two, then, are "true GMTs"? The hour hand jumps while the other hands (or in the Alpina's case, hands and disc) stay put.
> 
> ...


Hello guys. I am happy to read this thread sometimes. It's my favorite actually.

@tommy_boy the Alpina Start timer allows you to change local time by jumping the hour hand without changing the second time zone disc, but only forward. To go back you have to do the all turn around. Let's call her "half true GMT" ^^
I think that the date is linked to the second time zone by the way.

It's a modified Sellita move if I'm not wrong.


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## bigclive2011 (Mar 17, 2013)

The original GMT as used by transatlantic pilots.


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## szewc (Nov 25, 2008)

ManualWinder said:


> Since I couldn't find detailed technical info online, I email Ball and they informed me that pushers control the skeletonized hand, while the date and day are slaved to the local hour (non-skeletonized) hand. So, not exactly a "travelers" GMT watch. Ball has other model that is a "true GMT" however.


Damn you are right. The ROADMASTER VANGUARD II that I've described indeed has pushers that work with second time zone hand only. My bad.
ROADMASTER MARINE GMT operates in the same way. 
The traveler's GMT however is Roadmaster Pilot GMT.


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## Bird-Dog (Jan 22, 2021)

szewc said:


> Damn you are right. The ROADMASTER VANGUARD II that I've described indeed has pushers that work with second time zone hand only. My bad.


Sounds ideal for the modern road warrior; the guy (or gal, I suppose) who jumps on a plane in the morning and back home again that afternoon. Then off to a different there-and-back destination the next day. Fortunately I'm not one, but I know a few. I'm going to be optimistic and guess that's who Ball had in mind when they designed that one.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

Hello guys. 
GMT...UTC...true GMT or not true...maybe half true GMT because you can jump hour hand forward but not back...worldtimer...call that anyway you want. I found the perfect dual time watch...
The F.P. Journe chronomètre à résonance !!
Even the minute hands can be set independently !
Of course you'll need to spend a bit more money than expected 









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## InitialAndPitch (Aug 13, 2020)

Nice job. Appreciate the effort. 

I’m aware of the advice about not setting the date between 9pm and 3am. If mid flight, you use the jump hour function to set local time and it passes through midnight, does that mess with the mechanics of the watch?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Quartz movement, but travellers hour hand adjustment. Citizen *BJ7100-82E








*


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

I haven't checked back on this thread in a long time but I'm glad people are still getting use out of it. I put it together because it was so confusing trying to figure out which models had which type of GMT movement and it doesn't appear that it's gotten any less confusing because rarely do manufacturers point out which type of movement they are using. Usually if it's a traveler GMT then they will point that fact out but it's not always a given. I don't travel much anyways so I still only have the one traveler GMT and no standard GMT watches. 

I guess the bottom line is that if you are in the military or a pilot and need to keep track of UTC time or just need to know what time it is in a second time zone then the standard GMT is for you whereas I think a travelers GMT is ideal for someone making frequent trips to multiple time zones.

Now if only someone could standardize the nomenclature and readily point out which version is in their watches, then we wouldn't need this thread at all.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

InitialAndPitch said:


> Nice job. Appreciate the effort.
> 
> I'm aware of the advice about not setting the date between 9pm and 3am. If mid flight, you use the jump hour function to set local time and it passes through midnight, does that mess with the mechanics of the watch?


That "advice" is a potential problem that only applies to certain movements w/quickset date mechanisms. It doesn't apply to your GMT-Master IIs or Explorer II.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Quartz movement, but travellers hour hand adjustment. Citizen *BJ7100-82E
> 
> View attachment 15983639
> *


Yup, suggested that 2 years ago back on page 5 (yeah it's a long-ass thread ). Caveat: it's not a "true" traveler's GMT because it only jumps the 12-hour hand forwards (clockwise); turning the crown backwards (counter-clockwise) quick-sets the date.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Yup, suggested that 2 years ago back on page 5 (yeah it's a long-ass thread ). Caveat: it's not a "true" traveler's GMT because it only jumps the 12-hour hand forwards (clockwise); turning the crown backwards (counter-clockwise) quick-sets the date.


But wait... on movements where one can move the hour hand back and forth, do you give up a quickset date?


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Yup, suggested that 2 years ago back on page 5 (yeah it's a long-ass thread ). Caveat: it's not a "true" traveler's GMT because it only jumps the 12-hour hand forwards (clockwise); turning the crown backwards (counter-clockwise) quick-sets the date.


That is correct. However, it doesn't (usually) present a problem because the hour hand is not tied to the date so you can just jump it forward 11 hours instead of turning it back one without changing the date. It can be a problem however if you are traveling many time zones and you want the date to reflect the local time and not your home time (GMT time) That's why as you said, it's not a "true" traveler's watch, which I stupidly dubbed a truly true GMT, lol.


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> But wait... on movements where one can move the hour hand back and forth, do you give up a quickset date?


I believe you can do it by moving the minute hand back and forth so that the hour hand crosses midnight repeatedly and that will change the date but drunken-gmt-master might have a better answer.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> But wait... on movements where one can move the hour hand back and forth, do you give up a quickset date?


AFAIK, yes. This isn't to say that there isn't an IAHH movement out there that has a quickset date, but every IAHH watch from Rolex, GS, etc. that I've encountered or owned lacks a quickset date.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> AFAIK, yes. This isn't to say that there isn't an IAHH movement out there that has a quickset date, but every IAHH watch from Rolex, GS, etc. that I've encountered or owned lacks a quickset date.


This is why I like the Seiko 8f56 models - IAHH back and forth, with perpetual calendar function.

Because basically what you get for Rolex money is a movement with a date-set hack similar to a Vostok...

Not sure which I'd rather have - quickset date ot IAHH back-and-forth functionality.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> This is why I like the Seiko 8f56 models - IAHH back and forth, with perpetual calendar function.
> 
> Because basically what you get for Rolex money is a movement with a date-set hack similar to a Vostok...
> 
> Not sure which I'd rather have - quickset date ot IAHH back-and-forth functionality.


Yeah, having a perpetual calendar is 1 way of getting around that problem, but easier to do w/a HAQ movement (as in the Longines Conquest VHP & Citizen Chronomasters w/the A060 & A010 movements).

I personally have no strong need for the date on any watch, but also don't find it to be a big hassle to not have it quickset (if I did, it would be a good sign that I had too many watches).


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

So why isn't there more standardization or consensus in the industry on differentiating between the two types of GMT movements? How hard would it be to just call one of them Type one and the other one Type 2? Other than the American Diabetes Association who would have a problem with that? I imagine that many people "not in the know" were disappointed one way or the other when they received a GMT watch of one of variety and thought it was of the other.


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## Bob1087 (Mar 29, 2012)

This topic reminds me of why I love my Montblanc Orbis Terrarum so much. Aside from the beauty of the dial, you can use the pusher to adjust the hour hand to the reference city that you are in, and of course, can see what your home time is via the 24 hour ring. No need to unscrew/pull out the crown like on most gmt watches. I also have a Seiko Scubamaster with gmt feature. The Orbis is way more user friendly, and pleasurable!


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## Bob1087 (Mar 29, 2012)

heb said:


> This is a very nice thread, thank you. I've ruminated on these "true travel" watches for some time. Perhaps the least expensive mechanical "True Travel GMT/World time watch AND the most convenient to use is this Longines variant. Besides independent hour hand manipulation, once the 24 hr ring is set up to your home time/city, it always gives you the correct time in all those respective cities no matter how many local time zones you move the hour hand to. No turning bezels, pressing buttons, flipping latches, etc., to find out the times in the other cities. You only have to change it during DST/ST change overs. Of course, things will get screwed up when going to those places that are 30 or 45 or 15 minutes off of normal timezones; better to avoid those places anyway. Also, at its sub $2000 price point, you can't place the city's timezone you are in at the top of the dial, that's just gold plating anyway. But I guess if you go to so many different places on one trip that you forget the city you are currently in, it may be useful. Patek Phillipe has a nice model that can help you out there. Unfortunately, I don't think this model is currently being produced, but can be found in any number of GM sites.
> 
> heb
> CONFIG]14335253[/ATTACH]


Is that the original Patriots logo I see there?


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## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

Bob1087 said:


> Is that the original Patriots logo I see there?


It is.

heb


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

This is my dual time watch. 
Nice, easy to use and cheap









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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Julien Portside said:


> This is my dual time watch.
> Nice, easy to use and cheap


Yes, although they're not GMTs, 12-hour bezels are a great, more affordable, alternative & basically function the same as the original Glycine Airman & GMT-Master (& competitor GMTs from Zodiac, Seiko, Enicar, etc.), i.e., you turn & reference the bezel to determine either home or travel time zones, depending on your preference for setting the 12-hour hand (which is why they're called "the poor man's GMT"). I think they work particularly well w/dials that have no numerals, as on your Q Timex, Benrus Type 1, Nodus Duality, or Damasko DA4x series. In my watch fantasy world, Rolex offers a bi-directional 12-hour bezel option for the Submariner (which I dub the Road-Master™, though maybe they should bring back the Turn-O-Graph name for it).

There are also watches where you can manually change the numerical indices to account for different time zones, like the Ochs und Junior Two Time Zone models.


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## Julien Portside (Jun 3, 2019)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Yes, although they're not GMTs, 12-hour bezels are a great, more affordable, alternative & basically function the same as the original Glycine Airman & GMT-Master (& competitor GMTs from Zodiac, Seiko, Enicar, etc.), i.e., you turn & reference the bezel to determine either home or travel time zones, depending on your preference for setting the 12-hour hand (which is why they're called "the poor man's GMT"). I think they work particularly well w/dials that have no numerals, as on your Q Timex, Benrus Type 1, Nodus Duality, or Damasko DA4x series. In my watch fantasy world, Rolex offers a bi-directional 12-hour bezel option for the Submariner (which I dub the Road-Master, though maybe they should bring back the Turn-O-Graph name for it).
> 
> There are also watches where you can manually change the numerical indices to account for different time zones, like the Ochs und Junior Two Time Zone models.


I didn't know that Ochs und Junior watch and it is a cool idea. 
Despite that the price is far too high for an ETA movement without any effort on the watch case, except that it is a titanium which is great bit still very expansive. 
I know my watch is not a GMT watch but I think it works perfectly to show another time. Except the fact that the bezel can move by itself sometimes if you put your hands in your pockets for example 

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## dbostedo (Feb 26, 2014)

Julien Portside said:


> Despite that the price is far too high for an ETA movement without any effort on the watch case...


It's definitely pricey, but a lot of what you're paying for is the modification to the date wheel, and especially the bespoke ordering/customization from a small company.


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## Bob1087 (Mar 29, 2012)

heb said:


> It is.
> 
> heb


Pats fan since 1977 here!


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## sleepyhead123 (Jun 2, 2014)

Tl;dr. But here's what I consider a true traveler's GMT. Has GMT. Hour adjust. Date. And day. When I'm on vacation or business travel, I have a hard time remembering the day of the week since I'm out of my routine.


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## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

Bob1087 said:


> Pats fan since 1977 here!


Since '62 for me.


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## Dean_Clevername (Dec 28, 2018)

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Yes, although they're not GMTs, 12-hour bezels are a great, more affordable, alternative & basically function the same as the original Glycine Airman & GMT-Master (& competitor GMTs from Zodiac, Seiko, Enicar, etc.), i.e., you turn & reference the bezel to determine either home or travel time zones, depending on your preference for setting the 12-hour hand (which is why they're called "the poor man's GMT"). I think they work particularly well w/dials that have no numerals, as on your Q Timex, Benrus Type 1, Nodus Duality, or Damasko DA4x series. In my watch fantasy world, Rolex offers a bi-directional 12-hour bezel option for the Submariner (which I dub the Road-Master™, though maybe they should bring back the Turn-O-Graph name for it).
> 
> There are also watches where you can manually change the numerical indices to account for different time zones, like the Ochs und Junior Two Time Zone models.


Yeah I love a good 12 hour bezel. I wish they were an option on nearly every diver since 99% of the time we are desk diving anyhow. A 12hour bezel is honestly the easiest and most fool proof (this fool at least) way I've found for quickly translating time when dealing with clients all over the world with all kinds of GMT offsets. It's even easier than an actual 3 hand GMT to a large extent since you don't have to mess with the crown.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Dean_Clevername said:


> Yeah I love a good 12 hour bezel. I wish they were an option on nearly every diver since 99% of the time we are desk diving anyhow. A 12hour bezel is honestly the easiest and most fool proof (this fool at least) way I've found for quickly translating time when dealing with clients all over the world with all kinds of GMT offsets. It's even easier than an actual 3 hand GMT to a large extent since you don't have to mess with the crown.


I obviously agree & any watch company that offers a 12-hour bezel option usually gets some attention from me. I also wish more "dive" watches had a dual-scale bezel option like the new Serica 5303 & Nivada CASD reproductions or the "navigator" version of the 12-hour bezel (w/markers for 15 or 20 minutes) like the Benrus Type 1 & 2 (+ homages) & Marathon Navigator, which is less busy.


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## duckmcf (Jan 29, 2008)

This is a fantastic thread, but there’s something that I just have to know.

Is it just me, or is anyone else triggered by the, “24” that’s on many GMT bezels?

Midnight is 00:00, not 24:00… isn’t it?

Cheers,
Noel

PS My GMT-II, with its sans 24 bezel, says hi…


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## robi1138 (Jul 5, 2016)

duckmcf said:


> This is a fantastic thread, but there’s something that I just have to know.
> 
> Is it just me, or is anyone else triggered by the, “24” that’s on many GMT bezels?
> 
> ...


First, I never noticed that about bezels...but that doesn't bother me.
And, I agree...it is a great thread! 

My beloved little thread, Daddy's come home! I know I said I was going out for a pack of cigarettes and that was several years ago, but I always knew you were there!

Ok, enough of that. Wow, it's definitely been a while. Just glad to see it's still going. I'm glad that, overall, most people seem pleased with what I started and you have all continued 🙂.


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## grumpymachinist (Nov 22, 2017)

Well, since this thread is resurrected, I have one more watch to add to the list. The Bulova Wilton GMT with the Miyota 9075 movement:


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## shedlock2000 (Aug 3, 2017)

I read today that there is a new Myota movement out which features a jumping hour hand instead of the eta based office GMT function. 

I’m assuming this will find its way into a bunch of micro-brand GMTs. It’s been installed already into three watches — not of which I recognised, but it’s also going to be in some Bulova or other. I’ve a feeling the list of traveller’s GMT’s will get much longer quite soon. 


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

shedlock2000 said:


> I read today that there is a new Myota movement out which features a jumping hour hand instead of the eta based office GMT function.
> 
> I’m assuming this will find its way into a bunch of micro-brand GMTs. It’s been installed already into three watches — not of which I recognised, but it’s also going to be in some Bulova or other. I’ve a feeling the list of traveller’s GMT’s will get much longer quite soon.


It's already in the 43mm dress-style Bulova, which is rather difficult to buy and not in most catalogues (I think it's only available in the USA) so not yet, ah, taking the world by storm. That movement is also available in the $1,000 LIP Nautic-Ski (called Nautic-GMT) but you won't find that everywhere either. But other than the upcoming Boldr micro, I haven't seen much sign of it.

For whatever reason, this Citizen movement is not actually available in a Citizen watch, surprising given how much demand there apparently is? I appreciate there are lead times involved, but like the Seiko '34, this is reported to have the same dimensions as the 3-hander it's based on so should not require lots of new case machining and redevelopment.


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## Michael Day (Feb 19, 2016)

duckmcf said:


> This is a fantastic thread, but there’s something that I just have to know.
> 
> Is it just me, or is anyone else triggered by the, “24” that’s on many GMT bezels?
> 
> ...


Actually I believe it's both. As with normal ordinal counting, we start with one rather than zero. It counts up to 24 hours, hence the 24 marking and not 0. 

If I asked you to count to 5, you'd start at one not zero. If I asked you to count to 5, 3 times, you'd count the same way without ever saying zero. 


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## duckmcf (Jan 29, 2008)

Michael Day said:


> Actually I believe it's both. As with normal ordinal counting, we start with one rather than zero. It counts up to 24 hours, hence the 24 marking and not 0.
> 
> If I asked you to count to 5, you'd start at one not zero. If I asked you to count to 5, 3 times, you'd count the same way without ever saying zero.
> 
> ...


You’re right that both 2400 and 0000 can be used, but not for the reason you mentioned.

It’s detailed well on this web page, Midnight Military Time - 2400 or 0000? (12 AM Standard Time) - , but basically:

0000 to notate midnight (12:00AM) when it is the *START* of the day/activity
2400 to notate midnight (12:00AM) when it is the *END *of the day/activity
Also, while 0000 through to 0059 are acceptable to use, 2400 can only be used to denote midnight at the end of the day with 2401 to 2459 not being valid as they effectively reference the following day.

For example, 
18 Oct 24:15 is not valid as it is effectively means 19 Oct 00:15, while
18 Oct 24:00 is valid as it means midnight at the *end* of the day for 18 Oct, where as
18 Oct 00:00 means midnight at the *start* of the day for 18 Oct

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers,
Noel


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## Michael Day (Feb 19, 2016)

duckmcf said:


> You’re right that both 2400 and 0000 can be used, but not for the reason you mentioned.
> 
> It’s detailed well on this web page, Midnight Military Time - 2400 or 0000? (12 AM Standard Time) - , but basically:
> 
> ...


I'm not saying it's 2415 though. It ends at 2400. Also GMT watches are not set up to be military watches, so I believe my points to be very valid. Same as a regular Joe would not say 1600 hrs, they'd say 4. 


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## leidai5 (Jun 2, 2017)

We can add the BOLDR Freediver GMT and Jack Mason Strat-o-timer to the list, both using the Miyota 9075. At around the $900-1000 mark, these are as good as non-Swatch group traveler GMT watches get currently. I hope more brands have watches with this movement in the works so that prices keep getting driven south. We're seeing NH34 models all over Aliexpress recently. Wonder if the the same thing will eventually happen to the 9075.


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

This one rocks my world when I travel.....


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