# As good as it gets: Grand Seiko 9S85 versus Omega AT 8500



## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*
Introduction
*
The stakes are high for this contest. Both of these watches represent nearly the very best their companies can do. The 8500 is the vaunted next-generation movement of Omega, designed by the most influential and best funded non-Japanese watch company in the world, Swatch Group. And it's proven itself in my testing already. Seiko's competitor, the 9S85, represents not only nearly the best that Seiko can do, but nearly the best Asia can. Should the movement fail to impress, it would be a disastrous blow, in my estimation, to Seiko.

It's true; neither of these movements are truly the creme de la creme of their company. For Omega, certain versions of this movement have a silicon hairspring. For Seiko, certain versions of their movement are adjusted to a tighter spec. But these are really, really close.

But, of course, watches are more than movements. These are both exceptionally attractive. They're both roughly similar in size and cost. They both feature screw down crowns. They can both go from sport to dress with relative ease. These are great all purpose watches at the top of their game. But which one is better?










As a caveat, I must confess up front that I'll be spending a little more time on the GS in this comparison. This is for several reasons. For one, great photos and information about the Omega are widely available already as it's much less rare. Two, chances are you can just drive somewhere and see it in person unlike the GS. And finally, I've already written extensively on it in my "Comprehensive Review," so if you want to see more photos and information than are in this thread, go check out that review. I go into a lot of technical depth on the performance and design in that review, and I intend on doing the same with the GS later.























































*The Subjective*
How does one compare these watches? They're so different and yet--so similar. The Aqua Terra represents the sportier, trendier model that can cross over to dress with the right strap. The GS is very nearly a pure dress watch but, on a bracelet, can be casual and sporty. Their sizes are similar--40mm for the GS and either 38.5 (in this case) or 41 for the AT. For me personally, a 5'10 average build man, the GS' size is absolutely perfect, whereas the AT is just slightly small.


















In terms of thickness and weight, they seem virtually identical to me. The GS seems to be a bit thinner, but this is more an optical illusion due to its increased length. Actually, both of them are a little chubby for what they are.










The Aqua Terra is a great looking watch. Stylish, yet still classy. Sporty, but not truly aggressive. In many ways, it reminds me of the Rolex Explorer. It's the refined sports watch.



















The dial, though a bit "flat" in color, livens it up with its teak lines. Tastefully placed numbers are laid around the edge. The color of the dial ranges from a deep, inky black, to a shiny, nearly silver appearance, depending on the light its exposed to. In fact, although Omega refers to this as the gray dial, I tend to think it's misleading. In most lights it's black or it's silver.










The hands and hour markers have so much character to them. I love the fat, tank like hour hand and its contrast to the harpoon-esque minute hand. The tooth hour markers are a great touch.










The date window's trapezoid shape meshes well with the angles on the dial. And their angles stand in sharp contrast to the vertical teak lines. This actually increases readability, because when your eyes see the vertical lines "broken" by something in the way, they are instantly drawn to it.










It loves sharp angles of light. Head on it's not quite as impressive. But allow the light to illuminate only one side of the teak lines, and leave the other in shadow, and it dramatically highlights the details of the dial.

The AT is something you see in the display and think "wow, that looks really cool." The GS more like punches you in the stomach and you can't look away. There's no telling how many car accidents wearing this watch has caused.


































Grand Seiko designers are masters of light. They know how to make the dial, the hands and the indices play with the light. This cannot be captured by camera, so far, however. In real life, you can watch the light dance on the dial, breaking into these various halo shapes, and it's mystifying. The perfectly mirror polished steel hands and indices take on the colors of the room as if they were some sort of abstract art. In intense sunlight, like the first photo of this series, it literally sparkles and is almost too bright to look at. Move all they way down to diffuse artificial lightning and it becomes a soft "glow" of sorts.










And yes, the seconds hand really is that blue.

The GS lacks some of the pure style the AT has. The AT is the edgier design. But in a sense, the approach to the aesthetics of these watches mirrors their approaches to movement design. The GS wants to take a simple, understated and downright boring layout and make it something incredible. Omega wants something bolder, newer and edgier with the teak dial and aggressive hands and indices.



















Since the hands are mirror polished in three different angles, they tend to light up and reflect in three different ways each. I adore their shape. One thing that both the AT and GS have going for their hands is that they both look like they have some heft to them. I hate it when watch hands look like tinfoil cutouts. The GS' hands are especially massive.










The next thing I'd like to point out is the precision that goes into the GS' dial relative to the AT's. They're both great looking, and with the naked eye, both are basically flawless. But compare that image above with some shots of my Omega up close:










When magnified, you can see that the lines are not cleanly drawn on the Omega. They have a very "rough" texture to them. Of course, this isn't visible ordinarily. Still, when you compare to the Seiko, you see just how perfect the dial is. Granted, at high enough magnification, you can find imperfections/dust/etc on any dial (at least, that I've seen). My advice: for the love of God, do not use a loupe or macro lens on your watch.

One of the nice things about the Omega is its use of rhodium plated white gold:










Their fine polishing technique can throw off a prism effect in the right situation. And it's just a nice little bonus, especially when you consider the Omega is somewhat cheaper than the Seiko.










Yet, perhaps Seiko is using a special alloy, or maybe its the product of the hand polishing, the steel hands and indices of the Seiko seem just as "white" and "pure" as the rhodium/white gold in the Omega.










The date rings also have some interesting characteristics. On the gray dial Omega (and perhaps the black one too, I can't say, but definitely not the white/opaline one) they use a metallic silver paint for the numbers on the date ring.


















The Seiko actually gets a really interesting texture metal ring, which glows different colors in bright direct light.


















The bracelets:

These bracelets are both terrific. Their design is even roughly similar.










The Aqua Terra is on our left and the GS is on our right.

The AT uses a more subtle, narrower bracelet. The bracelet is fully brushed, which makes it extremely easy to clean up.


















Oddly, the sportier watch has the more humble bracelet. The GS' bracelet is positively blingy by comparison. It'll also be a pain to clean up sooner or later.










Both bracelets use screws instead of friction pins, a design I greatly appreciate.

In terms of comfort, it's hard to compare them. I had the GS fitted to be slightly tighter than the AT. In doors, the GS now fits better, but in the heat, the AT's looser bracelet fits better. Until I get them the exact same length, I can't make a meaningful comparison. But they're both very high quality and feel great.










I think I prefer how the GS' looks. The AT's bracelet is just a bit too plain for me. It doesn't look cheap, but it just doesn't really fit the theme of the watch, which is more stylish than the bracelet.










It is quite tasteful though. In a sense, I can see it on the GS before I can see it on the AT.


























The thing that really separates these bracelets for me is the clasp.



























I'll leave the preference of logo to your sound discretion. However, I do like the smaller and more integrated looking clasp on the Omega.










The Omega uses a clasp with two places to secure the bracelet (one per each side, the last link acting as a hidden clasp). One side requires you to press the pushers on the side as per normal, the other just requires a little bit of force to defeat the friction from the ball detent.










That creates a little added security. With only the clasp with the Omega symbol free, the watch will still not fall off your hand. The friction of the two little ball bearings is adequate to keep the watch from freeing itself.










The GS uses the standard clasp and has no extra protection, although that's not to say it's not made to just as high of quality. That system also makes it look more integrated. The edge of the clasp on the GS is free on the end--that is to say, it does not connect perfectly flush with the next link. The Omega creates that illusion better.










However, Seiko's design is less intrusive in terms of comfort where your wrist is against the clasp. The GS is on our left, Omega on our right. I don't find this is noticeable though.










I can't say which is my favorite. I think I prefer the actual functional design of the AT's bracelet, but I think I like how the GS' bracelet looks better--I think it looks nicer, and I think it feels more in line with the actual cost of the watch than the AT's. I just can't decide.

The Movement (decoration):

When I bought the GS, I knew, for sure, that it had no hope of competing with the beautiful 8500. But I was wrong.



























See those lines on the "Tokyo stripes?" They actually move with whatever source of light is hitting them, changing colors--they look like a hologram in real life.



















See how it plays with those colors? The entire design of a GS (any GS) is just a piece of art work meant to interact with light. Even the movement.



















GS loves to write about how awesome their tuning is on the back of their movement. Similar writing is on the 8500, but extremely well hidden. It's virtually invisible on the Omega.































































Here you can see Seiko's unique Diashock shock absorber on the balance. Thus, if you didn't know that a Grand Seiko 9S85 was high end, using my trick, you could have determined it from its "flower" shape.










I love the writing on the rotor. It's bright yellow gold and it just looks incredibly high quality.











































As you can see (I hope), this is a much closer call than the photos I'd seen led me to believe.

Of course, the 8500 is no slouch. Its steel rhodium plated movement is a sight to behold. I love the pink/purple writing, which matches the rubies really well.









Man, those hairlines are invisible in real life. They look terrible in photos. 


















Notice the black balance wheel. The black is apparently a coating. It's made of a "beryllium-free alloy" which is supposed to make it more stable. It contrasts nicely against the rhodium-white finish of the rest of the movement.



















I promise you can't see those hairlines in real life.



















And of course, my personal favorite photo:









Which is better decorated? Well, I leave that up to you. They're both gorgeous and befitting their price tags. Hopefully, in the future, more brands will adopt Zenith's approach and reveal more of the functional movement underneath. In the mean time, these are some of the best looking ones out there.

Lume:

Shockingly, Omega's lume is far superior to the GS'. Jokes aside, you'd be surprised at how well the GS performs in low light:










Here in low light, even with fully charged lume, the Seiko is actually just as easy to read. However, as you might suspect, in real darkness, only the Omega is legible.

*The Objective*

Why did I choose these two watches? Well, aside from their obvious good looks, I was interested in their fundamentally different approaches to automatic time keeping. These are both very special and unique movements, but in entirely different ways.

If you're interested in learning more, check out my comprehensive Omega review which goes into great depth, or look for my upcoming Grand Seiko review, where I'll discuss the performance and design of the watch in a lot of detail.


















Omega has attempted to use novel designs, like the now famous (or infamous, depending on your perspective) co-axial escapement. It has also utilized more complex designs, like a sequential double barrel mainspring and a free sprung balance. They've also made the controversial decision to stick with the 25,600 BPH rate (slightly slower than the industry standard of 28,800) that they switched to in the old 2500 models after problems at 28.8k (do note that the chronograph version of the 8500, the 9300, does return to the 28k beat rate). The free-sprung balance is made from a new non-magnetic alloy and coated black.










Seiko, conversely, saves all of their high-tech for their spring drives and quartz watches. The 9S85 is an exercise in taking a traditional design to its theoretical maximum, use the latest in materials, precision engineering, and old fashioned craftsmanship.










It has a single barrel mainspring, but that mainspring carries the latest Spron 530 alloy, which, according to Seiko produces 50% more torque than the mainspring and alloy used in their lower beat 9S65 (itself very impressive given a 3 day power reserve).










The hairspring is using arguably the most advanced metallic hairspring in existence, made from Spron 610, a propriety alloy that Seiko claims is tougher, more anti-magnetic and more shock resistant that its successful predecessor.










Of course, if the 8500's piece de resistance is the co-axial escapement, the 9S85's is the 36,000 BPH beat rate. As if that weren't impressive enough, Seiko has overhauled their escapement design to make it more accurate and reliable.










This is using Seiko's MEMS manufacturing process, which allows it to produce these parts at an unprecedented level of precision. Believe it or not, these components aren't just skeletonized; they're hollow. Weight reduction without compromising the integrity allows the movement to use less energy. This not only increases the effective power reserve, but it also reduces wear. Additionally, Seiko has developed some sort of technology that better holds onto and distributes oil, resisting the "slinging" problems of other 36000 bph movements. In fact, Seiko says the 9S85 has the same durability as the lower beat 9S65 (28800 BPH).



















But enough bench racing. I've tested both these movements in the real world. A note on my methodology. Day to day wearing is tested in the particular watch's ideal resting position, as I assume that this is the reality for most watch collectors. Power reserve testing is done dial up in a watch case--if a watch collector plans to take his watch off for 2+ days, he'll probably put it dial up in his watch case. That's my thinking anyway (and that's how I personally behave outside of testing).

_The official specs:
_
Omega 8500:


















+6/-4 seconds/day (COSC certified)
60 hour power reserve
25k BPH
39 jewels

Seiko 9S85:


















+5/-3 seconds/day (GS chronometer certified)
55 hour power reserve
36k BPH
37 jewels
Real world testing:

Accuracy:

8500: The 8500 has been an incredible performer. Resting crown up at night, it gains less than one second per day. I'd suggest about 0.8/day based on weekly results. It's incredibly stable. Now, this can be increased to apparently just over a second a day dial up, but the difference isn't huge. Really, this is the sort of a watch that you can put wherever (any position), whenever, and count on it to stay quite accurate. Initially, people were reporting really tight accuracy on this model, accuracy I can confirm in the three ones I've been able to observe, although as time goes by, it seems like I'm seeing more and more +3 through +5/day ratings (although their stability has remained rock solid from those posters). But, with any mechanical watch, there is some luck. For the ones I've seen personally, and the one I own, they have been very impressive.

9S85: The 9S85 has been astounding. In some ways it vastly outperforms even the 8500, in others it is defeated. If you wear the 9S85 every day, for an ordinary length of time, the accuracy is basically unprecedented. This is a screen shot I took after 15 days without positional regulation (or any other tricks), not wearing it for about two of those days:










The trend of the watch is a little more complex than the 8500. When worn, it gains something like half a second a day--it appears that when the power reserve is full, the watch runs ever so slightly fast. It then loses a few tenths at night (regardless of position, although crown up will make it go negative). The net total of on the wrist wear comes out to be basically 0/week. I haven't been able to run it for a month straight yet, but it'd be interesting to see if the long term trend is positive or negative. Eventually I decided to let the watch run dial up. Crown up had begun to make the watch trend negative, if however slightly.

Thus in terms of day to day accuracy, the 9S85, at least THIS 9S85, is the winner. The 8500 is something like 0.8/day, the GS is more like 0.1/day (or less). I suspect this isn't due to the advanced technology in the movement, or even the extra high beat rate, but the extensive time Seiko invests in their GS movements in terms of adjustment. Not only is the 9S85 apparently easier to adjust, due to having a regulator, but it receives 17 days as opposed to Omega's 15, it is adjusted to +5/-3 (or tighter) as compared to Omega's +6/-4 (or tighter), it is tested in 6 positions compared to Omega's 5, and finally it is tested in 3 temperatures as compared to Omega's 2. The end result is a watch that's slightly better dialed in. Put in other words, these movements are incredibly close in terms of day to day accuracy, but I think the GS wins ever so slightly not due to the movement per se, but by the craftsmanship put in to making it and adjusting it. Were the tables turned, perhaps Omega would be the victor.

That said, while I can say that THIS Seiko beat THIS Omega, these results are so close that I have to imagine that it's going to come down to luck for future purchasers. I'd need to test 10 of each to come to come up with a "sure" victor.










Power Reserve:

Not many watch collectors test their power reserves, but I do it out of an abundance of caution to make sure my new expensive watch is performing as it should be. Generally the ratings speak for themselves: 60 hours for the Omega and 55 for the Seiko, but this isn't one of those times. There's a matter of being technically impressive, on the one hand, and how much does each company outperform their rating on the other.

So first, the results:
Omega: 63.25 hours
Seiko: 59 hours

Both results are rounded up slightly.

So once more, we have a victor. This time, the Omega:










But while we're crowning the Omega, I want you to take into account some interesting factors. For one, the Seiko is beating at more than 40% faster than the Omega, and power reserve length is inversely proportional to beat rate, all things being equal. This makes the results, which are a tie for all practical purposes, quite impressive. Then consider that Seiko accomplished this on a single barrel where Omega utilized two (a common practice by watches with super long power reserves). And finally, Seiko exceeded their rating by a bigger percentage than Omega. All of these things make Seiko's 59 hour performance more impressive. In the end, however, it still loses, ever so slightly, to the 8500. And, unlike the accuracy test, this is probably a consistently repeatable difference. Thus, the Omega is the victor here, by over 4 hours.

Isochronism:










The results testing these watches for accuracy at different parts of their power reserve is remarkable. They mirror each other in different directions. Here are the raw results:

Seiko

0.0: +0
0.5: -1
1.0: -1.5
1.5: -3
2.0: -4
Final:-8

Omega

0.0: +0
0.5: +2
1.0: +3
1.5: +5
2:0: +6
2.5: +8 (final)

Time 0.0 means when timing began. Both watches were hacked to exactly +/- 0 seconds against time.gov and were fully hand wound. They were then placed in a closed watch case, dial up, until they died. Note that Omega is listed with a 2.5 and Seiko isn't--that's because Omega accomplished a full 2.5 days and Seiko didn't. These numbers reflect accuracy up to the manufacturer's rating and not beyond. Whatever extra time you get past the rating is gravy. I don't consider it fair to hold the manufacturer to supreme accuracy even beyond their rating. It's also worth noting that dial up is the best position for the Seiko and the worst for the Omega, meaning that Omega might have fared slightly better crown up. But my methodology presumes watch collectors store watches in a watch case, and usually that will imply dial up (assuming no watch winders, obviously, as that would defeat an isochronism test). But the Omega is so stable that it probably made little difference.










Through day 1 the Seiko easily outperforms the Omega, with a total variation difference of 1.5 seconds between them (ignoring a bias in favor of running positive). The performance continues to impress through day 2, although Omega is now closing the gap. But surprisingly, in the last 7 hours of running, it loses 4 seconds. The Omega remains rock solid, perhaps due to its free sprung balance, its double barrel mainspring or some combination. Omega's last 12 hours is even more impressive when you consider that the time includes an additional 5 more hours than the Seiko.










What can I make of these results? It's a mixed bag. Leave your watch off for a day or two, and the Seiko is the one you're going to want to pick back up. Indeed, the photo above was taken recently, after both watches were hacked, and you can see them deviate in two different directions after being unworn for a couple days--but the Seiko is simply closer than the Omega when I picked them up.

But which movement is more consistent overall? It has to be the Omega. The rate just doesn't change that much from the first 12 hours to the last, where you see a radical shift in the same conditions with the Seiko. Which watch wins in terms of isochronism? Well, both. One ended up -8, the other ended up +8. The Seiko would gradually reclaim that time as you wore it, as the Omega would continue getting farther from 0. On the other hand, running positive is generally preferable (and preferable to me) than running slow. So I'm calling a tie in this area.

Features:

The only significant difference in features between these watches involves the quickset date or lack thereof, and the Omega's independently adjustable hour hand. You could also consider Omega's superior 150m water resist rating (compared to Seiko's 100m), although they both have screw down crowns and are suitable for swimming. I didn't test the rating though, so I'm not going to spend time on it.










The GS has the more conventional quickset date, but the Omega is interesting insofar as it has an independent hour hand, like a true GMT watch (minus the GMT hand). However, the tradeoff with the Omega is that it loses the quickset date. Nonetheless, because you can spin the hour hand around the dial much faster since it's independent, it doesn't take that long to advance the date.










Also interestingly, the date can be reversed as well. That may seem superfluous at first, but if you're the type that leaves a watch unworn for a few weeks at a time, the date can be so off that it's a pain to take the hour hand around the dial 20+ times. In some cases, you can save time by taking the hour hand backwards. Still, it can be an annoyance that would take basically no time at all with a traditional quickset date. Conversely, changing the time for daylight savings, or flying to different time zones, is much easier on the Omega, where you can simply advance or retreat the hour without changing the rest of the watch's time keeping. I appreciate the novelty of the independent hour hand, but in terms of practicality, they make little difference.










The way these two watches advance the date is not equal, however. The Omega is the more precise watch, changing about one minute prior to midnight, whereas the Seiko changes 6 minutes after. Despite this, I actually prefer the date change of the Seiko. For one, it takes about 1:15 to change the date on the Seiko whereas it's closer to 2 hours for the Omega. Furthermore, the "danger zone" of changing the time is much narrower on the Seiko--don't change between 10 and 1. According to Omega's FAQ on the 8500, the time should not be changed between 8 PM and 2 AM. No doubt Omega is being cautious, but that's 25% of a day there. That's a hassle in my book. It's also 100% larger than Seiko's danger zone. So in terms of the date change, Seiko might be a little less accurate, but it's faster and safer. Thus, on the whole, I think the Seiko comes out the winner in terms of features.










As an aside, we have two of the most powerful watch companies in the world here presenting their very best movements (in terms of time keeping). Why can neither of them accomplish what Rolex does? A simple, nearly instantaneous date changing mechanism that is essentially impervious to changing the time during operation. Swatch Group and Seiko, if anyone, should be able to accomplish this simple feat, and yet we have their next generation movements right here and neither do. That annoys me.

Manual winding:

These are both smooth winding mechanism, but the slickness of the 8500 (as well as the old 2500) is just incomparable. You cannot tell you're winding anything at all. You can feel the click in the 9S85, even though it is minute. They're both refined, but I have to give the edge to the 8500 here.










Sweep hand:










The Seiko beats 10 times per second, whereas the Omega beats just 7 times per second. When you look at the Omega alone, the staccato motion isn't particularly noticeable, but is discernible if you're looking for it. Putting the Seiko next to the Omega, however, and it becomes quite obvious. You have to really concentrate to see the stopping of the Seiko hand, but the Omega will suddenly seem half as smooth. But the Omega is smooth enough that I don't think this should be a serious issue for those who care about a smooth sweep hand. It's essentially indistinguishable from any other 28k mechanical. Of course, if smooth sweep hands are especially important to you, then by all means get a GS hi-beat, a Zenith el primero or a Seiko Springdrive.

This link will take you to a video I made comparing the smoothness of the seconds hands. It'll give you a good idea. I'll upload it to youtube later and do a proper embed.






All things being equal, higher frequency movements will be less affected by shock (in terms of time keeping) than lower frequency movements. Unfortunately, I don't have a practical means to test this. So for now, we must assume that the theory holds true and that in some sort of high-shock situation (high vibration presumably) the Seiko will be less affected than the Omega.

*Conclusion
*These watches perform extremely similarly and, at the risk of sounding like a cop out, I can't possibly declare a winner, objectively speaking. Both of these movements are superb. The quality in both of them is incredible. They will both do basically anything you could ask of an automatic. So you're going to have to decide for yourself.

But for me, the GS just feels more special. It just looks like something you don't see every day--not necessarily in terms of design, but it just has this presence to it. I can't explain it. It's just the more jaw-dropping watch. This is the opinion I've had from unbiased people in real life as well. Even people that have never cared about watches before, who were uninterested in the Omega, were floored with the GS. Based on that ethereal and unjustifiable appeal, if I could only have one, it'd be the GS. But that's just me.










Fortunately, I _don't _have to choose just one.










A special thanks to Timeless Watch Exchange .  Without Dan's help, I wouldn't have been able to do all these great reviews or get such a great deal on my GS. Without TWE, I'd definitely not have been able to get the Hi-Beat I really wanted. So I can't say enough about how great it is to go there.










Hopefully I'll get another GS from TWE next year too.


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## keegemit (Apr 1, 2012)

Thanks for the comparative review, both are great watches! enjoy them!


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks for the comprehensive review.


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## nikidasi (Jun 9, 2009)

Fantastic review! Thanks for sharing with us.


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## Athram (May 31, 2012)

Amazing review!!
I think we all knew which watch would win though!
Could you put a warning about your post being pic heavy in the title, my computer almost died trying to load this thread! ;-)


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## Mitch100 (Jul 3, 2007)

Fantastic detailed review. Thanks for taking the considerable time it must have taken you to do this

Tells and shows you everything you want to know about these two watches.

The GS would get my vote clearly though it will be interesting to see how the servicing intervals go on these two as the co-axial design should mean less wear overall.







Mitch


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## Punkling (Jun 26, 2011)

Fantastic review. Thanks for taking the time 

Bad pun, sorry....


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## WnS (Feb 20, 2011)

Epic comparison, but more like 2 reviews in 1, I really enjoyed the read. 

I'm lusting over the GS Hi-Beat more than ever now, it may edge out the Fifty Fathoms as my grail. Not a bad thing either, I'd save 4K too (unless I go insane and buy both).


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## dbakiva (May 7, 2011)

Thank you CitizenM. This represents the forums at their best.


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## jwalther (Dec 31, 2006)

That's a bit shallow. Could do with a little more analysis. . .:-d

I just can't get over to competing/clashing dial fonts on the GS. Perhaps a minor nit to pick in the grand (pun intended) scheme, but one which would serve to prevent me from owning what is otherwise a perfect watch.


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## Perseus (Mar 25, 2010)

That's one in depth review! Clearly two great watches but I would always choose the AT. The looks of the GS don't really do anything for me. The AT is the girl that drives me wild while the GS is the girl I should be head over heels for but the chemistry just isn't there.


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## Apopka (Aug 7, 2012)

Great review. Just want you to clarify what you meant by this: Why can neither of them accomplish what Rolex does? A simple, nearly instantaneous date changing mechanism that is essentially impervious to changing the time during operation.

Are you talking about when the date changes with a quick snap a minute or so after midnight?


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## GX9901 (May 13, 2009)

Thanks for posting the comprehensive review of two great watches. It was a fun read.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

I have to stop visiting this forum. Reading reviews like this is just plain dangerous. Thanks anyway CitizenM


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## Likestheshiny (Nov 28, 2011)

I want a Snoooooooooowflaaaaaaaaaaake.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Apopka said:


> Great review. Just want you to clarify what you meant by this: Why can neither of them accomplish what Rolex does? A simple, nearly instantaneous date changing mechanism that is essentially impervious to changing the time during operation.
> 
> Are you talking about when the date changes with a quick snap a minute or so after midnight?


Well, Rolex's date change mechanism is both faster and safer than the Omega's and Seiko's. It's not really THAT big of a deal, but these movements are both new (the 8500 being virtually entirely new, the 9S85 being very new) and yet neither have improved their date change design.






See how Rolex does it instantaneously? What takes Rolex 1/4th of a second or so takes the Seiko over an hour and the Omega over 2 hours. And unlike the Seiko or Omega (or pretty much any other watch), you can set the time on a Rolex at any point without fear of hurting or just preventing the date change.

I don't mind say, a small company like Nomos not being able to do this, but surely Omega and Seiko can afford to develop their own better date change mechanism.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Likestheshiny said:


> I want a Snoooooooooowflaaaaaaaaaaake.











Gooollllllddddddd


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Athram said:


> Amazing review!!
> I think we all knew which watch would win though!
> Could you put a warning about your post being pic heavy in the title, my computer almost died trying to load this thread! ;-)


Lol, to be totally honest, even I wasn't sure which would win when I picked up the 9S85....I've been really impressed with the Omega. I don't even know if I could say it won per se, it's more like I just like it slightly more.

As to the pic heavy nature, I knew I had gone too far when I was editing this before posting and, scrolling down fast, the fans on my laptop maxed out.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

All I can say is wow. You should be getting some sort of secondary income for this level of work.


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## chesthing (Jul 18, 2012)

gagnello said:


> All I can say is wow. You should be getting some sort of secondary income for this level of work.


Rarely does heartfelt interest merge with money, unfortunately.


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## Athram (May 31, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> See how Rolex does it instantaneously? What takes Rolex 1/4th of a second or so takes the Seiko over an hour and the Omega over 2 hours. And unlike the Seiko or Omega (or pretty much any other watch), you can set the time on a Rolex at any point without fear of hurting or just preventing the date change.
> 
> I don't mind say, a small company like Nomos not being able to do this, but surely Omega and Seiko can afford to develop their own better date change mechanism.


I have also been a bit baffled as to why Omega and Seiko can't accomplish this. It isn't really a big deal but it has long since annoyed me.


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## Swingline888 (Sep 8, 2011)

Awesome review! Must have taken a lot of time! I agree in regards to the date, if Seiko implemented the quick change date, they would be even better than they already are!


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## Athram (May 31, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> Lol, to be totally honest, even I wasn't sure which would win when I picked up the 9S85....I've been really impressed with the Omega. I don't even know if I could say it won per se, it's more like I just like it slightly more.


Yeh an 8500 AT is at the top of my wish list at the moment!


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## TimeSaver (Mar 8, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> Lol, to be totally honest, even I wasn't sure which would win when I picked up the 9S85....I've been really impressed with the Omega. I don't even know if I could say it won per se, it's more like I just like it slightly more.
> 
> As to the pic heavy nature, I knew I had gone too far when I was editing this before posting and, scrolling down fast, the fans on my laptop maxed out.


Fantastic review and I loved all the photos! I have to admit I was really looking forward to this post/review. I'm completely torn now because I've been debating back and forth about the new blue dial AT Skyfall coming out in the next month or two. This was the little push I needed to mentally commit to the watch. I hope you're proud of yourself...you've broken my will power (I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but after I got my Hi-beat, I promised myself that I was done for the next decade). You all knew better than I that my self-delusion would get the better of me. This truly is a dangerous forum to be on.

Again, great job!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

TimeSaver said:


> Fantastic review and I loved all the photos! I have to admit I was really looking forward to this post/review. I'm completely torn now because I've been debating back and forth about the new blue dial AT Skyfall coming out in the next month or two. This was the little push I needed to mentally commit to the watch. I hope you're proud of yourself...you've broken my will power (I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but after I got my Hi-beat, I promised myself that I was done for the next decade). You all knew better than I that my self-delusion would get the better of me. This truly is a dangerous forum to be on.
> 
> Again, great job!


Well they are a great pair. I'd keep the AT on the bracelet and put the hi-beat on leather, and then you've got pretty much every occasion covered.


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## cedargrove (Mar 10, 2011)

Great review. I enjoyed it very much. Thanks.


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## omega1234 (May 17, 2012)

GREAT thread, thanks CitizenM again.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

great job thanks for the share


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## Oldheritage (Jan 3, 2009)

Athram said:


> I have also been a bit baffled as to why Omega and Seiko can't accomplish this. It isn't really a big deal but it has long since annoyed me.


Can't be that difficult, my $50 Vostok watches have no quickset, but the date changes in a fraction of a second. Anyway, very nice review, I really like the GS...


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## CMTFR (Aug 29, 2011)

Great thread, CitizenM. 
Thanks for sharing all this work with us. You're very generous.
Cheers
C.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I've added a video of the sweep hands compared up close and head to head. Tomorrow I'll try to get around to doing a proper embed because right now it's kind of hidden under the seconds hand smoothness section near the end. Here's a link so you don't have to hunt for it:


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## KevL (Feb 2, 2010)

Two beautiful watches and one great review.


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## kiwidj (Sep 24, 2007)

A most interesting, well-written and comprehensive review. Well done and thanks!


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## charlieboy89 (Dec 21, 2011)

nice review. thanks again.

but i have to say something is off with your camera. indoor pics not so much, but that purple hue of outdoor shots are ?! did you try tinkering with white balance and different scene mode etc etc? what camera is this anyway?


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

it's a crappy cell phone, an Evo 3D. Terrible camera. Even an iPhone 4 is far superior.


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## Athram (May 31, 2012)

Thanks for the vid! It wasn't that bad in terms of quality.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Best review I've read in a while. Thanks for taking the time to complete it!!

The AT is great, but I'd go with the GS due to the extreme rarity. They are just never seen here in the US and the 36k bph is just amazing.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

cold_beer839 said:


> Best review I've read in a while. Thanks for taking the time to complete it!!
> 
> The AT is great, but I'd go with the GS due to the extreme rarity. They are just never seen here in the US and the 36k bph is just amazing.


And in terms of looks, it's also the more unique one. So just all around, it feels like something really special. Of course, in fairness to the Omega, it does cost over $1000 less lol, so you know, I can definitely see a case for either of them. I was hoping there'd be a definitive winner and I'd sell one. But no, they're almost both perfect, so I guess I'm broke for awhile lol.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Athram said:


> Thanks for the vid! It wasn't that bad in terms of quality.


That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about my videos lol


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

Good review! I had probably found it difficult to choose between them .. I probably would have had to buy both!


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)




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## TGE (Apr 24, 2011)

Wonderful review and comparison. Posts like this are why WUS is worth coming back to over and over.



CitizenM said:


> it's a crappy cell phone, an Evo 3D. Terrible camera. Even an iPhone 4 is far superior.


If you ever feel like doing showings, I'll put that GS in a lightbox and get the DSLR on it =)


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

80talisten said:


> Good review! I had probably found it difficult to choose between them .. I probably would have had to buy both!


And know you, you will lol


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

TGE said:


> Wonderful review and comparison. Posts like this are why WUS is worth coming back to over and over.
> 
> If you ever feel like doing showings, I'll put that GS in a lightbox and get the DSLR on it =)


Lol that depends on what a showing is, but yeah if you ever come to visit, take all the photos you like.


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## Tmcgeo39 (Dec 10, 2009)

What a fantastic review. It is like a version 2.0 of the Omega AT vs Grand Seiko review from years back on the PMWF. 

I debated myself between the AT and the GS ( the more humble SBGR053) with the 9s65.

Went with the GS. You hit on much of it but simply put there is just something about it. The AT is a fine watch. Hard to go wrong with either.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Tmcgeo39 said:


> What a fantastic review. It is like a version 2.0 of the Omega AT vs Grand Seiko review from years back on the PMWF.
> 
> I debated myself between the AT and the GS ( the more humble SBGR053) with the 9s65.
> 
> Went with the GS. You hit on much of it but simply put there is just something about it. The AT is a fine watch. Hard to go wrong with either.


Ignoring the irony of a GS and an Omega article in a "poor man's" watch forum lol, that was a very interesting review. I've read it a few times over the years. Here's a link for those who may not know what we're talking about:

Aqua Terra and Grand Seiko compared

I believe they compare an AT2500 to a GS with a 9S55, so my little comparison is a nice update since they both have updated movements now (the GS updated twice actually, 9S65 and 9S85).

I guess if I had to tell people "which watch," I like the GS more, but the AT is still the best all arounder.


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## Ovalteenie (May 4, 2010)

CitizenM said:


> As an aside, we have two of the most powerful watch companies in the world here presenting their very best movements (in terms of time keeping). Why can neither of them accomplish what Rolex does? A simple, nearly instantaneous date changing mechanism that is essentially impervious to changing the time during operation. Swatch Group and Seiko, if anyone, should be able to accomplish this simple feat, and yet we have their next generation movements right here and neither do. That annoys me.


I am not sure that the near-instantaneous date flip is by definition superior or 'better'. Arguably there is an advantage to having a short period of transitional change before it flips. With a short transitional date flip, when checking the time just after midnight, if it has not flipped yet, nevertheless one still can deduce from it what the date is as it is in the process of changeover. With an instantaneous date flip, when checking the time just after midnight, if it has not flipped yet, one might be confused about the date.

Nice review & thanks for the effort you clearly put into it. I agree both are great watches and my preferred choice would also be the GS for its elusive elegant refinement. The lug holes are also a nice touch (if you like them as I do).


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

Ovalteenie said:


> I am not sure that the near-instantaneous date flip is by definition superior or 'better'. Arguably there is an advantage to having a short period of transitional change before it flips. With a short transitional date flip, when checking the time just after midnight, if it has not flipped yet, nevertheless one still can deduce from it what the date is as it is in the process of changeover. With an instantaneous date flip, when checking the time just after midnight, if it has not flipped yet, one might be confused about the date.
> 
> Nice review & thanks for the effort you clearly put into it. I agree both are great watches and my preferred choice would also be the GS for its elusive elegant refinement. The lug holes are also a nice touch (if you like them as I do).


Well, I would definitely prefer an instantaneous change exactly at midnight if I could choose. I feel the same way about chronograph subdials.... something about clean precision appeals to me I guess.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

That's definitely Omega's argument. I don't think Seiko talks about it. 

Personally, I don't get it. Make the date flip within 1 minute of midnight (as Rolex does) and there's only about 2 minutes per day that you can be unsure of the date. What I hate about slow date changes is mainly that it looks weird or broken for an hour to two hours a day. That's one reason I like retrograde and pointer dates...the hand moving between the dates isn't really noticeable, where like, a half of two different numbers on the date ring looks bad. And I usually am up till 4 AM, so those are some hours I'm looking at my watch still.

The other thing is that with the Rolex system, it's virtually impossible to damage the date change mechanism and you can change it at any time, whereas there are significant portions of the day you're not supposed to on the Omega or Seiko. 

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have either of these watches over their direct competitor, the Datejust, but I do need to tip my hat to Rolex's date change mechanism. 

I do like the GS' novel case shape and lugs. It looks a little weird just from the profile, but on the wrist it looks great. It's a more...natural looking design as opposed to the ordinary use of nearly straight lines for the side and lugs.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

Oldheritage said:


> Can't be that difficult, my $50 Vostok watches have no quickset, but the date changes in a fraction of a second. Anyway, very nice review, I really like the GS...


This is true. My Amphibian does this and needless to say, the AT and GS are slightly superior watches.


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## auspuffturbolader (Dec 25, 2010)

I am not sure I understand the date flip system. The 8500 uses the hour hand in crown position 1 to change the date correct? You can go forward and backwards to your hearts content moving the date with the hour hand as much as you want. There is no "danger zone."

"The way these two watches advance the date is not equal, however. The Omega is the more precise watch, changing about one minute prior to midnight, whereas the Seiko changes 6 minutes after. Despite this, I actually prefer the date change of the Seiko. For one, it takes about 1:15 to change the date on the Seiko whereas it's closer to 2 hours for the Omega. Furthermore, the "danger zone" of changing the time is much narrower on the Seiko--don't change between 10 and 1. According to Omega's FAQ on the 8500, the time should not be changed between 8 PM and 2 AM. No doubt Omega is being cautious, but that's 25% of a day there. That's a hassle in my book. It's also 100% larger than Seiko's danger zone."

To change the date you must move through the danger zone. Am I missing something?

"The other thing is that with the Rolex system, it's virtually impossible to damage the date change mechanism and you can change it at any time, whereas there are significant portions of the day you're not supposed to on the Omega or Seiko."

I do not think on the new 8500/9300 movements or the old 1128 movement, you can damage the date change mechanism using the crown in normal use.


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## Formerguide (Apr 12, 2011)

No reason at all this shouldn't be published, you should submit to Watch Time or a similar periodical. Excellent read and review. As always!

Dan


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

auspuffturbolader said:


> I am not sure I understand the date flip system. The 8500 uses the hour hand in crown position 1 to change the date correct? You can go forward and backwards to your hearts content moving the date with the hour hand as much as you want. There is no "danger zone."
> 
> "The way these two watches advance the date is not equal, however. The Omega is the more precise watch, changing about one minute prior to midnight, whereas the Seiko changes 6 minutes after. Despite this, I actually prefer the date change of the Seiko. For one, it takes about 1:15 to change the date on the Seiko whereas it's closer to 2 hours for the Omega. Furthermore, the "danger zone" of changing the time is much narrower on the Seiko--don't change between 10 and 1. According to Omega's FAQ on the 8500, the time should not be changed between 8 PM and 2 AM. No doubt Omega is being cautious, but that's 25% of a day there. That's a hassle in my book. It's also 100% larger than Seiko's danger zone."
> 
> ...


You can change the date on all watches (that have a date) by advancing the minute and/or hour hand (if the latter happens to be independent). Virtually all of them have an area that you are not supposed to set the date during. This may not damage the date change mechanism, but can change the time the date advances, or sometimes it won't advance the next day.

According to Omega's own FAQ on the 8500:



> Avoid changing the date manually between 08 pm and 2 am, since this is the period during which the automatic date-change is in operation.


Now it's possible that Omega is wrong about their movement, but I'm not going to test it out myself.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

^ So it does have a quick-set date?


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

fasthandssam said:


> ^ So it does have a quick-set date?


The 8500 doesn't, at least not in the typical sense. I'm not sure about the annual calendar models though, their date mechanisms (obviously) are entirely different. What you can do is just advance or retreat the independent hour hand 24 hours, which is quite fast (much faster than non-independent hour hands). The only time this becomes an annoyance is if you're like 5+ days off, in which case it can take a minute. All non-GMT Grand Seikos do have a quickset date though. The GMT models work just like the 8500.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

CitizenM said:


> The 8500 doesn't, at least not in the typical sense. I'm not sure about the annual calendar models though, their date mechanisms (obviously) are entirely different. What you can do is just advance or retreat the independent hour hand 24 hours, which is quite fast (much faster than non-independent hour hands). The only time this becomes an annoyance is if you're like 5+ days off, in which case it can take a minute. All non-GMT Grand Seikos do have a quickset date though. The GMT models work just like the 8500.


I feel like I'm missing something here. If you advance the independent hour hand around the dial to change the date doesn't it necessarily mean that every time you change the date, you do it between the hours of 8pm-2am? How can you advance it without entering into the danger zone? Sorry if this is something stupid and obvious, but I am scratching my head LOL


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

fasthandssam said:


> I feel like I'm missing something here. If you advance the independent hour hand around the dial to change the date doesn't it necessarily mean that every time you change the date, you do it between the hours of 8pm-2am? How can you advance it without entering into the danger zone? Sorry if this is something stupid and obvious, but I am scratching my head LOL


I get the intuitive appeal, but because I'm not willing to test it myself, all I have to go on is Omega's FAQ for the 8500. My only guess, purely speculation of course, is that there's something different about interrupting the process than there is about starting and finishing it (i.e., pulling the crown to position 1 and freeing the hour hand, but not the minutes and seconds, might have some sort of effect when done during the date change operation). Alternatively, maybe Omega just puts the same warning on all their watches no matter what.

Hopefully another 8500 owner will test this for us.


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## auspuffturbolader (Dec 25, 2010)

So how else would one set the date other than advancing the hour hand through the "danger zone."


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## wristclock (Jul 5, 2010)

Great great writeup, I enjoyed the review immensely. I love both of those watches and to me they are each grail worthy, you are very fortunate to not just own one but to own own both. The GS is just amazing, I really like the case shape and finish in your pics, I also like the lugs and the looks of the bracelet more on the GS. Thank you for taking the time to contribute such a post |>


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

auspuffturbolader said:


> So how else would one set the date other than advancing the hour hand through the "danger zone."


There isn't one. ALL watches change their date by passing through the "danger zone" every day. Including all watches with a conventional quickset date. None of them have problems by the natural motion of the hands through the danger zone. Almost all of them have problems with intervention during the date change. Take, for instance, the Valjoux 7750, which is well known for its issues regarding date changes during the wrong hours. You could safely set the time 24 hours in advance by moving the minute hand around the dial for long enough, and that would flip the date over (forwards) without a problem.

I get people's intuitive disagreement with Omega on this, and share it, but this is Omega's official statement and I'm just not going to risk it. As I point out above, my only guess is that disconnecting the hour hand itself while the minute hand is still advancing could be what can cause a problem if done while the date is changing--which is purely a guess on my part. Another guess is that Omega just issues this warning on every movement whether or not there really is a risk.

Complaints on this instruction should be directed towards Omega. I just know I'm not going to test it on a $4000 watch.

If someone is willing to buy an Omega 8500 watch and test it, I'll be more than happy to include the results in the first page.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

I think I'm starting to understand, and it is probably just an oversight on Omega's part- as you said, it's just the same warning they put on all their watches. Otherwise, any activation of the independent hour hand during the "danger zone" could have deleterious effects and would therefore be warned against. It would be dangerous to even change the hour at night time, and this would be absurd.

In any case, I certainly understand your desire to err on the side of caution.


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## auspuffturbolader (Dec 25, 2010)

Where did you get the FAQ on the 8500? It sounds wrong to me.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

It's from Omega's webpage, and listed under the 8500:

OMEGA Watches: FAQ

Here's the full text:



> Quick date-change on calibres 1120, 2300, 2500, 2601, 2610, 2627, 3221, 3301-3, 3304, 3320, 3313, 3612, 3888, 3890,* 8500, 8501, 8520, 8521, 8601, 8611*
> 
> OMEGA uses the quick date-change system, which starts to change the date at about 11.30 pm and comes to its end at 00.10 am. The date of the ending day can be seen in full until 11.50 pm. Between a period of 10 minutes before and after midnight, the calendar jumps and lets appear the date of the next day.
> 
> Avoid changing the date manually between 08 pm and 2 am, since this is the period during which the automatic date-change is in operation.


I've emphasized the relevant movements. Interestingly, there is an entry for other movements too, so this doesn't cover every Omega movement.

But there's just no way I'm going to advise readers to do this without knowing for sure they're going to be safe. So until someone tests it out, I'm not going to edit the entry and leave it at Omega's official word.


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## Ayoungentrepreneur (Jan 12, 2009)

Thank you for a wonderful review.


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## RogerP (Mar 7, 2007)

Good review. Sounds like the Omega stacks up very well against a watch half again as costly.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

RogerP said:


> Good review. Sounds like the Omega stacks up very well against a watch half again as costly.


Well, IMO a more fair comparison would be a Grand Seiko Automatic with 9S65 movement... this "normal beat" movement would still be rated for better-than-COSC +5/-3 accuracy and would actually have a substantially better power reserve (rated for 72 hours). It has an MSRP of $4400 and is in my opinion more of a direct competitor with the AT.

That being said, this Omega is truly a fantastic watch, and can easily hold its own against much more expensive watches. And I actually think it is more versatile than either GS in question since the Seiko's tend to be more dressy, whereas the AT strikes what is to my eye the perfect balance. I'd still take the GS, but it is by no means a landslide.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I liked the 9S85/8500 comparison more because of how radically different the design approaches were (in terms of movements). 

Assuming I'm still doing pretty well financially, I'll try to buy an SBGR059 or one of the SBGMs this year, which have a 9S65/9S66 and test those too. I'm also trying to get a Rolex and JLC MC reasonably soon so we can have some sort of blow out test.


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## RogerP (Mar 7, 2007)

Rolex, JLC, Omega, GS - doesn't suck to be you! Agreed on the versatility versus dressy aspects of the AT and GS, respectively. I wear my GS almost exclusively as a dress watch, whereas the AT has a broader range.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

RogerP said:


> Rolex, JLC, Omega, GS - doesn't suck to be you! Agreed on the versatility versus dressy aspects of the AT and GS, respectively. I wear my GS almost exclusively as a dress watch, whereas the AT has a broader range.


Lol I feel like I've got to collect them all. I think the next target is a Master Control though. At least, the next "high end" target.


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## H2KA (Apr 17, 2010)

Great watches and great review!


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## KyleT (Apr 14, 2012)

Its an exceptionally great review of the watches. Thanks for the details.


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## hkustch (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks CitizenM for the review. Agreed that both watches are gorgeous and I got only a few extra critics for the GS here:
- the markers are too tall making the crystal looks far higher than the dial, which is not looking good for dressier watches
- the thin markers does not go well with the thick razor hands, while those for the AT match perfectly in size and shape
- as pointed out in some forums at my side, GS movements are also plated (with rhodium?) for shiny whitish look, and a close examination with higher magnification reveals rough edges on the plates compared to other Swiss brands...though I dunno if this is the case for Omega

However, personally I never look at a watch with magnifying glass (I guess most of us dun) so the movement is fine polished enough for me. I still agree GS is gorgeous but I'd prefer other models with slightly thicker markers, as u can see one is on my wishlist ;-)


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

hkustch said:


> Thanks CitizenM for the review. Agreed that both watches are gorgeous and I got only a few extra critics for the GS here:
> - the markers are too tall making the crystal looks far higher than the dial, which is not looking good for dressier watches
> - the thin markers does not go well with the thick razor hands, while those for the AT match perfectly in size and shape
> - as pointed out in some forums at my side, GS movements are also plated (with rhodium?) for shiny whitish look, and a close examination with higher magnification reveals rough edges on the plates compared to other Swiss brands...though I dunno if this is the case for Omega
> ...


I know what you're saying, but I actually quite like the thin hour markers (I also love the thick triangular ones on the AT). I think hour markers are, in a practical sense, irrelevant, so GS is just minimizing dial clutter, whereas large hands increase readability--at least, I think that's what they were going for. The spring drives do tend to have the thick hour markers though:









I actually do prefer the SD's hour markers though. If I had a choice, I'd have taken these markers over my current ones. They just look really cool in real life.

Haven't been able to observe any objective difference in the quality of the finishing between the movements. However, we did find a spec of dust on the first AT8500 my roommate had (on the rotor). But I'm inclined to let the occasional spec of dust go as far as these reviews go since I don't know of any company in this price range that has a 100% dust free rate, so if I find a small bit of dust under magnification, I generally don't even bother reporting it.

Rhodium plated or not, the GS movement doesn't have the "white" coloration that the 8500 does. It's a much darker steel look. I prefer the platinum-esque look to the 8500 color wise, but I love how the GS throws off holograms in direct light...I THINK I'd have to say the 8500 is the better looking movement, but I was pleasantly surprised with how much better the GS movement looks in real life.

As per the height of the hour markers, by my eye, the AT's are actually taller at their tallest point (they descend towards the center of the dial). I actually like both of their hour marker heights. But you can actually see, from a profile shot, that the AT's crystal is a little more exposed. At first I thought it was noticeably more domed, but actually, it just starts curving like 1/5th mm after the case, whereas the GS is flush. So I'm actually pretty sure (with no way of measuring, unfortunately) that the crystal in the GS is closer to the dial than the AT. But it doesn't bother me in any case.










One of the nice little flares of the AT is that the only polished surface on the dial is the side of the hour markers, which, combined with their rhodium/white gold white shine, throws off brilliant little flashes of light. That's also the view that really lights up the teak lines, so I definitely think that a severe angle is the best view of the AT.


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## hkustch (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks for your explanation. It seems the proportions and the straight edges of the GS markers making an illusion of tall markers. I like the sloped edges of the markers of snowflake which reflect light better, but the quarter markers are too thick for my taste. Both are nice watches anyway.

For the movement of GS, I've seen very white photos of it, maybe due to lighting then. I'll take a look of the real watch next time.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

hkustch said:


> Thanks for your explanation. It seems the proportions and the straight edges of the GS markers making an illusion of tall markers. I like the sloped edges of the markers of snowflake which reflect light better, but the quarter markers are too thick for my taste. Both are nice watches anyway.
> 
> For the movement of GS, I've seen very white photos of it, maybe due to lighting then. I'll take a look of the real watch next time.


It seems like GSes are designed from the ground up to be impossible to photograph. Very few photographs capture them in a flattering way. The Omega on the other hand is the easiest to photograph watch ever. I got tons of compliments on the photos from my review of that watch (prior to this) despite my terrible photography and camera.

Going to get a little off topic here, but I've taken new photos today so this seems like a decent tangent to pull them out.

I've taken photos with three different cameras, one my terrible cell phone, one a low-end but quasi-decent Samsung compact, and finally a decent compact, and they all get the colors wrong, no matter how I adjust the white balance etc. As soon as you focus in on the dial, it automatically adjusts the colors to be extremely poor. If I zoom back out, the colors readjust and it becomes accurate again. If I were more dedicated than I actually am, I'd take all the photos in high resolution, zoomed way out, then cut out everything else in photoshop. It's the only way I can get the cameras to have semi-realistic colors. It's even true of the movement, although outside, against the green grass, the colors did come out correctly for the movement.










This is as close as I could get today. It took a lot of messing with the ambient lighting and the white balance, but I finally settled on a faded blue discoloration from all the available forms of discoloration. I know I'm a terrible photographer. I know my camera(s) suck. But it's like it has some sort of magic anti-photographic property.




























In the movie store tonight, the colors actually came out pretty accurate, but it was during a date change unfortunately (and the lighting wasn't that great):










Here's some with accurate colors taken with my girlfriend's camera, very carefully adjusted and against a particular background:



























As per the hour markers, I do like these ones, but ultimately I agree...I prefer the spring drive sort of hour markers--even (perhaps especially) the quarter markers.

The movement seems a bit "dark" to me. At least compared to the Omega's.



































Here's a decent side by side (not great...):


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## CheapThrills (May 16, 2012)

I certainly would like THAT Grand Seiko over about Any other watch in the world.
GS just uses so simple, minimalistic styling yet is truly remarkable piece if engineering...

Awesome review!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

CheapThrills said:


> I certainly would like THAT Grand Seiko over about Any other watch in the world.
> GS just uses so simple, minimalistic styling yet is truly remarkable piece if engineering...
> 
> Awesome review!


And in the month since, it has continued to prove itself. No regrets with it, definitely.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

Excellent write-up on the GS. Been super curious of these watches for years and your pics and descriptions are top notch, it's made me seriously consider a GS as a viable option.

Thanks for the review!


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## WnS (Feb 20, 2011)

I've been meaning to ask, how is low light visibility on the GS Hi Beat?

Like in a cinema or nightclub dance floor.


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## VoiceOfSticks (Jan 21, 2010)

Great details on two awesome pieces. Thanks!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

WnS said:


> I've been meaning to ask, how is low light visibility on the GS Hi Beat?
> 
> Like in a cinema or nightclub dance floor.


In a movie, it's going to be borderline hopeless, but in low light, it's actually very easy to read. I took this photo of my AT and GS in low light to give a comparison:










There's a little more light on the GS here, but you can see that even in the shadow (top of the watch), it's still easily visible.

So I think night club is going to be fine, but movies are a no go. Which is ironic, since I can definitely see me wearing a GS to the movies, but not a night club.


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## Frogman4me (Apr 8, 2010)

Amazing thorough review! Thank you. A new Grand Seiko is for sure next on my list.


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## tigerpac (Feb 3, 2011)

I hope you get a commission on all these sales CitizenM!



Frogman4me said:


> Amazing thorough review! Thank you. A new Grand Seiko is for sure next on my list.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Lol I wish I could work for Seiko, but I guess they're not hiring.


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## mpalmer (Dec 30, 2011)

Songs will be sung and stories will be told about this review... I'm sure glad you didn't accidentally push a wrong button when posting that...


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Lol yeah, when I write these big ones I copy everything over to word and save it as I go to back it up, but there's usually like 30 minutes of editing after I post it still


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## JustinD (Apr 6, 2011)

Nice work, CitizenM...that was a very enjoyable read. If you could have the aesthetics of the GS with the 8500...how would that sit with you? It seems like a compelling pairing to me - the highly interesting co-axial in the almost irresistibly beautiful GS case with the dial and hands.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I think it'd be a great combination. They're both world class movements...in my opinion, this is about as good as a three hander is going to get (at least without going to the really exotic stuff like Lange). Of course, the smoothness of the Seiko is far superior to that of the 8500, but I do notice the 8500 has less positional variance. If you're looking for a really intriguing movement in a GS case, your best bet is probably a spring drive.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

CitizenM, you have me looking at this GS now:









*
Grand Seiko Spring Drive GMT SBGE001
*
There are two bits that kept me away from it. One is the 24-hour bezel. I would prefer an elapsed time counter. Also, the aesthetics leave me a bit cold overall. I realized though that fitting a good strap to it will soften its appearance quite a bit.

But for now at least, it remains a grail. That is, unreachable.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

It is really awesome, especially the lume. The only reason I probably wouldn't buy it is that I don't think that model is offered with a display back, and the decoration on GS movements is just too cool to not be seen. For much cheaper you can get a very similar watch in the Ananta GMT.










Man I love that watch.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

I need to get to another Seiko Boutique before long. Do they have any plans to open one or more in the US? I thought I read something about it a while back?


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

CitizenM said:


> For much cheaper you can get a very similar watch in the Ananta GMT.


I've now separated my acquisition plans into two sets: a more affordable *Collection* of four watches, and three *Grails. *The GS SBGE001 will fit nicely into the Grail set. The Collection may be doable sooner than later. I only have the Speedy to start. The Grails will have to wait. If I succeed in getting that far the Collection will likely be sold off.

It's $10K vs $35K.

All are usable for my activities. No drawer queens among them. Still among the two sets, the Collection serves all of my needs as much I'd love to own the Grails.

Collection

*Jaeger-LeCoultre*_ Master Control_ _| *Omega* Speedmaster Professional | *Seiko* Marine Master 300M __| _*Sinn*_ U2 S EZM 5_

Grails

*Lange & Söhne*_ Saxonia Automatic | _*Grand Seiko*_ Spring Drive GMT | *Zenith* El Primero White Rattrapante_


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I'm not sure about opening more dealers in the US, but they really ought to. They service a tiny percentage of Americans right now. 

The collection looks awesome. So do you already have that JLC MC?


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

CitizenM said:


> I'm not sure about opening more dealers in the US, but they really ought to. They service a tiny percentage of Americans right now.
> 
> The collection looks awesome. So do you already have that JLC MC?


I have to wonder if the reason GS and Spring Drive are under-marketed here is due to their ability to meet demand.

Thanks, you had a lot to do with it.

No JLC yet. I wish. My dreaming these days is entirely dependent on the success of a deal we have working. Stage 1 will get me a nice retainer I can use part of to complete the Collection all at once.


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## micreyes11 (Aug 22, 2012)

Great review... I'm currently trying to decide between GS and AT, pretty much a toss up right now...


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

micreyes11 said:


> Great review... I'm currently trying to decide between GS and AT, pretty much a toss up right now...


Do what I did and get both! Very similar, but very different...some weeks I'll just wear my AT, and the next just my GS. I go through phases.

In the price range of the Aqua Terra 8500's price range, I recommend the SBGR059. The entry level GSes are really great, but a bit plain compared to the AT. The 059 gives it a little more kick with a blue seconds hand and full titanium construction. When I decided to get a mechanical GS (as opposed to a Snowflake) it was the one I really fought myself over.


















Of course, if you can afford the Hi-Beat or the Snowflake, those are the creme de la creme of Seiko's three handers. You don't even get better from a much more expensive Credor (but perhaps just as good).










And yet, while I like these watches as much or more than the AT, none can match its incredible "everything for everyone" nature. Virtually EVERYONE finds something to like about the AT, and it seems to do everything well, both aesthetically and horologically.

Edit: On reflection, I guess the Snowflake isn't really a three hander. Roll with it lol


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

marchone said:


> CitizenM, you have me looking at this GS now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's an awesome watch. I actually don't mind the 24-hour bezel, but I do have a small issue with lume; GS don't have to have lume to be great. BUT, if you DO use it, then jump in with both feet you know? Don't put lume on just four markers. Same problem I have with the brilliant GO Sport Evolution Panorama Date. (picture not mine)









Anyways here is a video review of the Grand Seiko GMT spring drive- a very nice watch despite some minor shortcomings Video Review of the Grand Seiko Spring Drive GMT SBGE001 - YouTube


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

The Snowflake is a heartbreaker.


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## fasthandssam (Feb 9, 2011)

marchone said:


> The Snowflake is a heartbreaker.


Yea it's pretty ridiculous. Seiko puts out some really outstanding stuff!


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

fasthandssam said:


> I think it's an awesome watch. I actually don't mind the 24-hour bezel, but I do have a small issue with lume; GS don't have to have lume to be great. BUT, if you DO use it, then jump in with both feet you know? Don't put lume on just four markers. Same problem I have with the brilliant GO Sport Evolution Panorama Date. (picture not mine)
> 
> View attachment 860150
> 
> ...


Thanks. I saw that video just yesterday. His mention of the lume pip at 12 was screwy. The GO Sport Evo is another I've had on a short list all along. It came down to GO Sport Evo or MM300. The GO is unarguably the better watch but the MM300 is screaming "tool watch"!


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## Nichochenachi (Oct 27, 2012)

Both are fine watches, and great comparing! 

-Nicho


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

I need to add that video got my attention on the SBGE001 because the guy in it shows it on his 6.5-inch wrist. My wrist is 6.75-inches. Short lug-to-lug distance for sure.


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## bluloo (Nov 24, 2008)

That GS is making me all weak at the knees...


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

bluloo said:


> That GS is making me all weak at the knees...


Thanks! It's gained about 1/5th of a second this week:


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

marchone said:


> Thanks. I saw that video just yesterday. His mention of the lume pip at 12 was screwy. The GO Sport Evo is another I've had on a short list all along. It came down to GO Sport Evo or MM300. The GO is unarguably the better watch but the MM300 is screaming "tool watch"!


Almost bought a Sport Evo on bracelet last month. What a watch collectors watch! Attention to detail and precision like you would expect in a top quality watch heirloom. The bracelet is TOTALLY worth the extra cost.


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## Silversurfer7 (Apr 7, 2011)

Very comprehensive review. Thanks for taking the time.
Both show their class, great timepieces


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

Will_f said:


> What a watch collectors watch! Attention to detail and precision like you would expect in a top quality watch heirloom. The bracelet is TOTALLY worth the extra cost.


I agree. It's too nice for me to use as I am prone to do. Even without the bracelet.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Man, I haven't even seen a GO in person lol. You city dwellers have all the luck.


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## CogitoErgoSum (Jul 9, 2011)

Will_f said:


> Almost bought a Sport Evo on bracelet last month. What a watch collectors watch! Attention to detail and precision like you would expect in a top quality watch heirloom. The bracelet is TOTALLY worth the extra cost.


I totally agree.

In the past 6 months, I have had both the GO SE Panorama Date and BP Fifty Fathoms on my wrist. On paper, I prefer the FF. However, on my wrist, I like the GO much more. It is a very impressive watch. I don't (yet) own a dive watch, but when I do, the Sport Evolution is #1 on my list.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

I am not a big fan of the springdive, I would rather by a gs gmt in its mechanical version. But both the gs and the at are great watches.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

I have seen several GO and the workmanship on the bracelet is indeed outstanding.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

Excellent review. 

I quite like the case of the GS - you mentioned that the thickness is the same but it seems the GS wears much thinner due to the beveled edges. The AT non-crown edge looks very plain and from above is unsymmetrical compared to the crown side edge.

On quick change date, this is quite a pity. The date on the 8500 bothers me - I would prefer a no-date version or a big date version. Omega announced two big date versions but never released them.

On accuracy, Omega claims long term accuracy and larger intervals between service. Could be interesting to review again in several years - just before servicing the GS or AT.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> Excellent review.
> 
> I quite like the case of the GS - you mentioned that the thickness is the same but it seems the GS wears much thinner due to the beveled edges. The AT non-crown edge looks very plain and from above is unsymmetrical compared to the crown side edge.
> 
> ...


Yeah, to my eye, the GS seems thinner, but when I put them back to back, it's practically identical. Both could lose a little weight.

You actually can get a quickset date on the 8500 series of movements, but only the annual calendar ones. My colleague has an AT AC and just got his Deville HV AC today so I get to see those pretty often. On the other hand, they lose the independent hour hand and 5 hours of power reserve.

Supposedly free sprung balances, and the co-axial escapement, contribute to better long term stability. That might be true, but on my example, this hasn't occurred. In terms of resistance to positional variation, the 8500 is superior to the 9S85 in my samples, which is to be expected given the design. But for mysterious reasons, the 8500 has gone through "periods" of loss which returned to normal after a week or two. So on the day to day, the 8500 is more consistent, but over time, it actually seems less so. And in either case, the 9S85 has been more accurate, by which I mean, closer to "0." What I'm interested in is if I had my Omega adjusted to be closer to 0, which then would be the best performer--but I guess I'll never know.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> You actually can get a quickset date on the 8500 series of movements, but only the annual calendar ones. My colleague has an AT AC and just got his Deville HV AC today so I get to see those pretty often. On the other hand, they lose the independent hour hand and 5 hours of power reserve.


Actually I was referring to to date change as in Date-just. Perhaps Omega does not adopted as if it is still licensed by Rolex. If not, they just not want to follow leadership of other maker.

I am ok with the independent hour change even if the date does not quick set.



> Supposedly free sprung balances, and the co-axial escapement, contribute to better long term stability. That might be true, but on my example, this hasn't occurred. In terms of resistance to positional variation, the 8500 is superior to the 9S85 in my samples, which is to be expected given the design. But for mysterious reasons, the 8500 has gone through "periods" of loss which returned to normal after a week or two. So on the day to day, the 8500 is more consistent, but over time, it actually seems less so. And in either case, the 9S85 has been more accurate, by which I mean, closer to "0." What I'm interested in is if I had my Omega adjusted to be closer to 0, which then would be the best performer--but I guess I'll never know.


I think you already mentioned this on a different threat. I still believe the "mysterious reason" is sudden change in temperature. If the watch is not on your wrist all the time, a very cold morning can affect it.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

The temperature is always near room temperature. None of the watches is ever outside my house or office except to walk to the car, and, at any rate, none of my other watches were affected.

As per the instant date change, that's also on the annual calendar. It snaps over exactly at midnight with no observable march. Also, like the Rolex, the date can be quickset at any time without fear for the movement (we've confirmed this on a real model).


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## dedune (Aug 18, 2009)

CitizenM said:


> The temperature is always near room temperature. None of the watches is ever outside my house or office except to walk to the car, and, at any rate, none of my other watches were affected.
> 
> As per the instant date change, that's also on the annual calendar. It snaps over exactly at midnight with no observable march. Also, like the Rolex, the date can be quickset at any time without fear for the movement (we've confirmed this on a real model).


Still, room temperature is not body temperature! But then the trend is that the watch runs faster off the wrist as the balance shrinks slightly... My zenith is taking 2 seconds a day when off the wrist.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

dedune said:


> Still, room temperature is not body temperature! But then the trend is that the watch runs faster off the wrist as the balance shrinks slightly... My zenith is taking 2 seconds a day when off the wrist.


The point I'm making is that the temperature didn't change between its slow period and its normal one. I wore it just as often, the temperature inside was the same, I wore a different watch for outdoor activities, and even my car's temperature is nearly perfectly climate controlled and it cools down before I get inside (remote ignition). And, wearing my GS just as often during this period, the GS didn't have any similar response.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> The point I'm making is that the temperature didn't change between its slow period and its normal one. I wore it just as often, the temperature inside was the same, I wore a different watch for outdoor activities, and even my car's temperature is nearly perfectly climate controlled and it cools down before I get inside (remote ignition). And, wearing my GS just as often during this period, the GS didn't have any similar response.


Isn't the GS better adjusted for temperature? I think you mentioned earlier about 3 rather than 2 temp adjustments...


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> Isn't the GS better adjusted for temperature? I think you mentioned earlier about 3 rather than 2 temp adjustments...


It's sort of confusing because watches aren't adjusted for temperature anymore. Basically, as I understand it, when a modern manufacturer says adjusted for temperature, they really mean they tested it for two (or three) temperatures and found that it was within the stated specs. That said, the temperature that Seiko is adjusted for (the third temp, that is) is closer to body temperature. In the Grand Seiko realm, the standard variation allowed between any of the three temperatures is a total of 1 second (0.5 in either direction) or 0.3 on the special edition hi-beat models.

Still, given that the actual temperature of the room, car and my body didn't change in a discernible way, I don't find it a plausible hypothesis, unless all instruments read falsely in the same direction, my Grand Seiko was somehow adjusted to run faster to compensate (secretly) yet the Omega was left alone, and then I was like hypnotized into not noticing a substantial temperature shift, repeated for every AC-controlled place I'm in (office, house, girlfriend's apartment, car, mall, restaurant and so on). It's a simpler hypothesis that someone broke in, adjusted the Omega to run slow, and then after I let it die and restarted it, broke in again and fixed it.

I doubt I'll ever know what caused it.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

I just purchased my first Grand Seiko and thanks to this post am seriously thinking of making an Aqua Terra 8500 the next acquisition to join it. Have had my eye on the new Aqua Terra's for a long time now but never wanted to part with the core of my collection in order to get one but think I'm getting ready to consolidate and upgrade my collection once again. Have had about 6 different Omegas in the past, liked them but found a similar level of quality in my much cheaper Seikos.
I am hoping AT 8500 is a huge step up from the 2500 AT.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Well I'm definitely happy with both of them. I was actually looking at them in my watch case yesterday and sort of pondered that I had made my own little Reverso Duo there...my day (GS) and night (AT) sides...they really cover all my bases. 

As per the 2500 versus the 8500: I think the consensus view is that the 8500 is the superior version, but there is strong minority that prefer the old 2500. The 2500s were thinner, for one thing and substantially cheaper for another. Aesthetically speaking, while I think most collectors on WUS like the teak dial, there are people who prefer the more classic sunburst in the last generation. 

For me, I like the AT8500, both for what I perceive to be the better movement and because I really like the dial on it. I'm not particularly sensitive to thickness though (I'll leave that to a future Nomos or JLC). 

I have been told by some Omega collecting friends that Omega stepped up their quality all around with the current generation of watches, not just in the movement department. If you're expecting GS levels of finishing, you're probably not going to be quite satisfied with the AT, although, on the whole, I think it's a very reasonable competitor. I dare say I think it's as good a value as the hi-beat.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

Already found a grey AT 8500 at a good price so its going to join the GS, I don't know if I will be keeping both yet but it is also nice to know I could afford to keep both.
Thanks for being an enabler CitizenM...now my collection just went to the next level


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

These are my two: Grand Seiko SBGR053 and AT 8500 with grey dial.

I can confirm the newer Aqua Terra are well worth over double the price of the previous generations. I liked the older Omega SMP and Aqua Terra's but this is quite a substantial upgrade in the movement department and overall fit, finish and design. The bracelet is a huge upgrade over the previous gen. Personally I hated that clasp/bracelet combo on the older Aqua Terra.

I never thought I'd own a watch this expensive but when I realized I had accumulated 3 similar Damasko/Sinn watches and as much as I love them my work environment is more business casual so I really only need one tool watch to wear on the weekends or evenings. I sold an 656L and Sinn 856 UTC to pay for the Aqua Terra and pleased with it. I do miss my 856 UTC, it has been one of my favorite watches, but I have my Damasko DA 36 to assuage my pain. 

It is still far too early for me to decide which one I like the best, there are aspects of both watches that I like. Although the Aqua Terra lacks a quickset date I do find that independently adjustable hour had a neat and handy feature, especially when travelling a lot.

One Grand Seiko + oe Omega AT 8500 = a great combo of daily wearers, at least for me.
I could easily live with these two plus my Damasko for a long while but I know I'm a WIS so always am buying/selling and looking for new watches but these two are just perfect for me.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Awesome combo. Honestly, I've lost a lot of my watch buying desire since having both. I'm really quite satisfied with my "collection" at this point. Actually, when I was watch shopping for Christmas (for myself) I thought about buying a nice mechanical, but ended up with a digital g-shock lol.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

I am very happy with these two. However if I see empty slots in my watch box I always feel the need to fill them.
There is not going to be anything better than the Aqua Terra or Grand Seiko within my budget though.
I like the SBGM021 and SBGE009 spring drive GMT and might start saving for one.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I basically agree...Omega and GS right now are killing the sub $8000 watch world. Personally, I'd really like to pick up a Master Control or Reverso Duo as my next high-end watch, but I can't swing that right now, so I was thinking maybe a Nomos or Citizen Signature Automatic. Those are both awesome watches, but when it came time for me to actually buy one of them, I just didn't feel like I'd wear them if I had a GS and an AT to choose from. I don't want to use those great watches for beaters, so I got a legit beater instead, the G-shock.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

I will give an update on accuracy in the next couple weeks when I have had time to do some comprehensive real world testing. When I first received the Grand Seiko though it was running very slow around -10 sec/day but it seems to have settled down to within specs, at least sitting in the watch box. I will see how it performs on the wrist in the next little while.

I agree that the Aqua Terra is the better all rounder, and I also think it has a nicer finished movement. The AT is a bit thick and heavy but the much improved bracelet balances the weight and I don't find it too burdensome like a 2500 Planet Ocean on my skinny wrists.
The SBGR053 is also quite a thick watch, however fits me like a glove since the lugs are curved down it really hugs the wrist. The angles of the case make it wear less chunky than the dimensions actually suggest.

There are two spaces left in my watch box and I would like to add another light dialed Grand Seiko if I can this year.
I bought both the GS and AT used and the AT was definately a safe queen in impeccable condition. The GS had scratch on one of the lugs and the bracelet but still in very good condition and I think I got decent deal considering it cost me about $800 less than the AT [after Canada Customs]

Grand Seikos are amazing watches and even though the SBGR053 cost me a lot less than the Aqua Terra the fit and finish of the case, dial and bracelet may be just a notch higher. Its very close though.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

Well the Grand Seiko has gained 21 seconds in the past 48 hours just sitting in the box and the Aqua Terra has gained 2 seconds in the same time frame while worn on my wrist.

The Grand Seiko which is supposed to be regulated to tighter specs, is actually the least accurate watch I currently own.
I am not a huge accuracy freak so it doesn't bother me but if I did pay full retail for this I would be disappointed if it was running +10sec/day.

My Damasko is +1s/day and the IWC consistent +2s


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

There really seems to be something awry with the 9S65 in the last 12 months. Of course, one cannot compare a watch resting to a watch on the wrist. In the mean time, try letting it rest crown up, but ultimately, I'd send it into Seiko for service. I'm extremely busy these days, but I fully intend to discuss this with Seiko, to the extent Seiko is interested in talking to a nobody like me. But I do have the GS members card (and you do too) so we have a direct hotline. I doubt they'll be open for several more days though with New Years here. 

In the mean time, I think it's best for people to either avoid new watches with the 9S65 movement or go into them fully informed. It pains me to do this, but this is the third time this year (that I can recall) that someone has had a 9S65 substantially out of spec. This, of course, doesn't mean don't buy a GS, but right now, I must recommend spending more and getting a 9S85, a spring drive, or spending less and getting a quartz GS. We really need to figure out what's going on here. It does seem like all the 9S85s are doing great.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

cadomniel said:


> Well the Grand Seiko has gained 21 seconds in the past 48 hours just sitting in the box and the Aqua Terra has gained 2 seconds in the same time frame while worn on my wrist.
> 
> The Grand Seiko which is supposed to be regulated to tighter specs, is actually the least accurate watch I currently own.
> I am not a huge accuracy freak so it doesn't bother me but if I did pay full retail for this I would be disappointed if it was running +10sec/day.
> ...


Doesn't any GS comes with a Rating Certificate? If the watch is still in guarantee I believe you can claim a free readjustment.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> There really seems to be something awry with the 9S65 in the last 12 months. Of course, one cannot compare a watch resting to a watch on the wrist. In the mean time, try letting it rest crown up, but ultimately, I'd send it into Seiko for service. I'm extremely busy these days, but I fully intend to discuss this with Seiko, to the extent Seiko is interested in talking to a nobody like me. But I do have the GS members card (and you do too) so we have a direct hotline. I doubt they'll be open for several more days though with New Years here.
> 
> In the mean time, I think it's best for people to either avoid new watches with the 9S65 movement or go into them fully informed. It pains me to do this, but this is the third time this year (that I can recall) that someone has had a 9S65 substantially out of spec. This, of course, doesn't mean don't buy a GS, but right now, I must recommend spending more and getting a 9S85, a spring drive, or spending less and getting a quartz GS. We really need to figure out what's going on here. It does seem like all the 9S85s are doing great.


What about the 9S64 ? This variant is more appealing to me as it has no date. Have you heard of any problems with this one?


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

No, I haven't heard anything bad about the 9S64. On the other hand, it's basically just a stripped down 9S65, so there can still be some risk. You're right about the accuracy certificate. GS sends the equivalent of a chronometer certificate with each watch which shows the particular test results for your individual GS. It'd be interesting to see if these GSes were performing really well when they were made and end up performing poorly at the doorstep....it could suggest something in between going wrong.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

I also saw member gagnello had similar results with his silver dial SBGR051

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/grand-seiko-sbgr051-some-pics-very-brief-first-impressions-745813.html

I wore it for about 8 hours yesterday and left it crown up and it still gained 8 seconds.

Despite the accuracy issue, I am starting to prefer it a bit more than the Aqua Terra, it just fits more comfortable and looks better on my wrist


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Yeah I've talked with him about it. I'm glad you're happy with your watch, but still, this is just too common right now to be acceptable. Any company can let the occasional one through, but this is too many.


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## hotmustardsauce (Sep 19, 2012)

Will this be a problem with the 9S66 GMT movement?

I swear this is all a ploy by Seiko to get us to cough up and buy their SD/Hi-Beat movements


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

If these negative reports on 9S65 continue I expect Seiko to cease production or update it. Perhaps we can expect a 9S75 or 9S65b soon.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

As far as I can tell, the actual timekeeping parts of the watch are identical in all 9S6X movements, so I hypothesize, and this is merely my speculation, that all 9S6X movements may be vulnerable to whatever is going on here. 

I don't think we really need a revision...the 9S65 did really well historically, it's only this year that I've seen this become common. They need to find the flaw that's causing this and cut it out.


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## Ovalteenie (May 4, 2010)

Citizen M said:


> In the mean time, I think it's best for people to either avoid new watches with the 9S65 movement or go into them fully informed. It pains me to do this, but this is the third time this year (that I can recall) that someone has had a 9S65 substantially out of spec.





CitizenM said:


> Yeah I've talked with him about it. I'm glad you're happy with your watch, but still, this is just too common right now to be acceptable. Any company can let the occasional one through, but this is too many.


Citizen M is it fair to draw this conclusion about the GS from a few reports?

In the JLC brand forum there are a number of recent postings from people who have been disappointed with failure of their new JLC watch within the first month. I was chastized for questioning the reliability of JLC movements based on possibly a skewed impression of a small number of complaints.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Well, as I've gotten into arguments before around here, I wouldn't take this data and publish it in Watchtime or anything. But there have been enough inaccurate 9S65s in a row now that I'm concerned as a consumer, and even as a BIG Seiko fan, I would have to avoid one personally right now. Every company, be it Patek, GS, whatever, is going to let one slip through every once in awhile, but I'm seeing a pattern here, this year specifically (i.e., 2011 and prior seemed fine). This doesn't mean I'm saying don't buy a GS right now, I'm just saying hold off on the 9S65 models until we see someone break this pattern, or get one of the many non-9S65 models GS sells. And of course, this is just my advice, no one has to listen or agree. I get messages every week that someone bought a GS because of something I wrote, which is great, but I don't want these people getting bad watches because of my recommendation. So I've got to give criticism where I think it's due, whether it be for a company I don't like (TAG for example) or for a company I love, like right now. I really hope that the next WUS member who chooses to get one has as an accurate as my own GS, and that the pattern of accurate GSes continues (at least within the stated specs) so I can say that this was just a really bad few coincidences.


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## Yianniathon (Jan 14, 2013)

About to foray into the world of horology with my first luxury watch being either the AT8500 or the SBGA011 as a 21st birthday present to myself. I know that the GS is superior technically but being unable to see one in the flesh(I live 4 hours by plane away from the closest dealer), this decision is quite difficult. The GS is a high as I can go price wise, but it sounds like it's worth it. Is the GS a versatile daily wearer or is it too dressy to be worn all the time? I've seen the ATs which look great but I wouldn't want to regret passing up the opportunity to have a GS.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

Both watches are appropriate and versatile in an urban/suburban context. If you are an outdoorsman neither may be the best choice.


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## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

Nice in depth reviw of watches that are out of reach to most of us.

But i have to confirm the Seiko's game of lights. Even on my Seiko 5 which is like light years away from the GS and yet, the dial is the most amazing thing i've seen. It can be bright blue, it can be dark blue, sometimes it even looks like black. And as you move it, the light spikes move around it like if you're looking at CD/DVD surface and move it around.

Btw, about the time gaining and loss that it was mentioned. I think most of watches with day/date complication lose some over night because they have to move additional components which are not moved during the day.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

Jonathon Calligeros said:


> About to foray into the world of horology with my first luxury watch being either the AT8500 or the SBGA011 as a 21st birthday present to myself. I know that the GS is superior technically but being unable to see one in the flesh(I live 4 hours by plane away from the closest dealer), this decision is quite difficult. The GS is a high as I can go price wise, but it sounds like it's worth it. Is the GS a versatile daily wearer or is it too dressy to be worn all the time? I've seen the ATs which look great but I wouldn't want to regret passing up the opportunity to have a GS.


Both of them are solid watches with screwed crown and sapphire crystal. Both should do fine for most of your daily activities.


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## estrickland (Dec 31, 2012)

The ATs are okay, but the Snowflake is something special. 

At 41mm and with understated style it's absolutely not to dressy to be a daily wearer.
I wear mine with shorts and a t-shirt most days.

The worst thing about the watch is that when you go to check the time, you get stuck watching the blue second hand sweep and forget what you were doing.
It's also the best thing.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

I've got 3 watch choices now:

1. Omega AT 8500
2. Rolex Explorer 1 39mm
3. Grand Seiko (non-highbeat)

Of the three, in terms of quality/accuracy the Seiko wins out. But of the 3, when it comes to convenient servicing and resale, Rolex all the way. But, the Omega is right in the middle in terms of quality, accuracy, resale, servicing. 

Because of this comparison review tho, I'm really giving the Seiko more looks. The Omega is the "safer" choice but man that Seiko is cool! Haha

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Gorman22 (Jan 23, 2013)

What a great review, thank you


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Jonathon Calligeros said:


> About to foray into the world of horology with my first luxury watch being either the AT8500 or the SBGA011 as a 21st birthday present to myself. I know that the GS is superior technically but being unable to see one in the flesh(I live 4 hours by plane away from the closest dealer), this decision is quite difficult. The GS is a high as I can go price wise, but it sounds like it's worth it. Is the GS a versatile daily wearer or is it too dressy to be worn all the time? I've seen the ATs which look great but I wouldn't want to regret passing up the opportunity to have a GS.


Well, I have the AT and have played with the Snowflake and for me, I'd go with the Snowflake, assuming you are ok with/like the spring drive movement inside. The dial is just incomparable...and I don't think it'd be too dressy. Actually, the size and thickness of the watch, as well as the addition of the power reserve subdial, give it a sportier edge than you might think. I don't think you'll regret it.

You should keep in mind that the Snowflake uses full titanium construction which makes it extremely light. Some people don't like the unusually light feeling titanium watches give--I personally don't care one way or the other. Seiko does use a proprietary titanium allow they simply call "Bright Ti" which has a similar appearance to polished steel and apparently comparable hardness/scratch resistance. But it's probably a little more vulnerable to scratches.

Likewise, due to the titanium bracelet, Seiko chose to not use screwed bracelet construction unlike other GSes:









There are some other options for the soft ti bracelet design with screws, which use sleeves on the inside, but GS apparently went with the simpler design. It really makes no difference practically speaking, but something to think about.

On the subject of scratch resistance, GSes use anti reflective coatings on the inside of their sapphire crystals, and the AT uses it on both sides. On light dials like the Snowflake and my hi-beat, you can't tell any difference between single and double AR (or at least I can't), but on dark dials double AR is nice. On the other hand, it makes the crystal far more vulnerable to scratches than bare sapphire. It's not like it's super easy to scratch up, but I've seen plenty of double-AR Omegas with a bunch of hairlines in their AR coating after a few years. So I guess I theorize that the bracelet and case of the Snowflake will scratch slightly easier, and the crystal (technically the coating) of the Omega will scratch slightly easier.

Anyway, in your situation, I'd go Snowflake. You can get the AT anytime if you want one later (even 10 or 20 years later...they're quite common. Snowflakes are going to get rare once they're discontinued some indeterminate day in the future).


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

RejZoR said:


> Nice in depth reviw of watches that are out of reach to most of us.
> 
> But i have to confirm the Seiko's game of lights. Even on my Seiko 5 which is like light years away from the GS and yet, the dial is the most amazing thing i've seen. It can be bright blue, it can be dark blue, sometimes it even looks like black. And as you move it, the light spikes move around it like if you're looking at CD/DVD surface and move it around.
> 
> Btw, about the time gaining and loss that it was mentioned. I think most of watches with day/date complication lose some over night because they have to move additional components which are not moved during the day.


I do have very good luck with Seiko dials in general. I'd specifically want to mention the SARBs, which in my mind is like the "poor man's" (I hate that term) Grand Seiko.

Here's a recent shot of my GS:










It really shows off the depth of that dial. This is a fairly expensive watch, but you don't need to blow thousands to get something like it:










Here's a SARB035 (not my photo) that cost something less than 1/10th as much. But the dial work, hands and indices are very similar.


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## Benny P (Jan 29, 2012)

This is probably the best review/comparison I've ever read.


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## machlo (Jun 12, 2010)

Regarding accuracy of 9S65.
I bought my GS SBGR051 directly from Japan a few weeks ago. During first two weeks it was gaining about 20s/day. I was disappointed as it meant to be really accurate, but I thought that I'll wait a little bit and see if anything is going to change. Then, without any reason it started running fine. Fully wound in a watch winder or on the wrist it gains 2s/day. When watch winder is turned off, then after:
- 24h error is +2s
- 48h error is +2s
- 72h error is 0s
I've measured power reserve and the result is 77h and 20m.
Now, I'm fully satisfied.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

machlo said:


> Regarding accuracy of 9S65.
> I bought my GS SBGR051 directly from Japan a few weeks ago. During first two weeks it was gaining about 20s/day. I was disappointed as it meant to be really accurate, but I thought that I'll wait a little bit and see if anything is going to change. Then, without any reason it started running fine. Fully wound in a watch winder or on the wrist it gains 2s/day. When watch winder is turned off, then after:
> - 24h error is +2s
> - 48h error is +2s
> ...


That's awesome news. I'm glad to see Seiko is back on track with the 9S65...I hope this becomes the new trend (this is the way it almost always was, before a year ago...almost all of them were reported to be super accurate).


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## Horologic (Apr 26, 2012)

Wonderful review. I plan to visit an AD soon just to see a GS in real life.


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## Mark355 (Dec 25, 2012)

This was a joy to read. Thanks for sharing it with us. Beautiful watches also. That GS is incredible.


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## sharlywan (Feb 13, 2013)

I dont like the seiko very much, i prefer by far the Omega.


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## ken_sturrock (Oct 24, 2010)

sharlywan said:


> I dont like the seiko very much, i prefer by far the Omega.


Excellent. Thanks for sharing.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

It has been a few months now since I've had my Aqua Terra and Grand Seiko and I am still enjoying them very much. Now that my watchbox has no empty spots I can actually say I have no desire to buy any more watches and I stop looking at the sales forum all the time.
In fact I like the GS and AT so much that whenever I wear one I wear it almost all week, and start to think about selling the other one...since I don't really ''need' both and could use that money for something else. But then I switch to the other watch and decide I want to keep them both. 

I have several other nice watches in my collection now but these two are getting 90% of the wrist time still.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

cadomniel said:


> It has been a few months now since I've had my Aqua Terra and Grand Seiko and I am still enjoying them very much. Now that my watchbox has no empty spots I can actually say I have no desire to buy any more watches and I stop looking at the sales forum all the time.
> In fact I like the GS and AT so much that whenever I wear one I wear it almost all week, and start to think about selling the other one...since I don't really ''need' both and could use that money for something else. But then I switch to the other watch and decide I want to keep them both.
> 
> I have several other nice watches in my collection now but these two are getting 90% of the wrist time still.


Man I know that feeling.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

ken_sturrock said:


> Excellent. Thanks for sharing.


You wouldn't be a kindergarten teacher by any chance?


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## ken_sturrock (Oct 24, 2010)

Will_f said:


> You wouldn't be a kindergarten teacher by any chance?


Very close. I used to work in foreign relations.


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## G07 (Nov 20, 2008)

*My two favorite brands ...*

Two watches that share 100% of the time on my wrist ... just received a gorgeous custom black alligator strap and GS deployant for the GS (2 very different looks, 1 watch) and was so impressed, ordered another custom, black alliagator for the AT8500.

I finally think I'm happy with my two watch collection! :-!

Happy Easter.

John


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## Canuck (Sep 7, 2007)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



G07 said:


> Two watches that share 100% of the time on my wrist ... just received a gorgeous custom black alligator strap and GS deployant for the GS (2 very different looks, 1 watch) and was so impressed, ordered another custom, black alliagator for the AT8500.
> 
> I finally think I'm happy with my two watch collection! :-!
> 
> ...


Is that Seiko the SBGM023?


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## G07 (Nov 20, 2008)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

It' is the earlier version, the SBGM007 ... same case, dial, hands, bracelet, but different movement and the 023 has the see thru case back.



Canuck said:


> Is that Seiko the SBGM023?


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

Wonderful collection. I've played with the SBGM023 (the newer one) and it was awesome. The blued GMT hand was extremely bold.


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## TK-421 (Mar 11, 2010)

sell both and get a TAG


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## Yianniathon (Jan 14, 2013)

I got my first luxury watch a couple of weeks ago. The SBGH005, I can attest to pictures not doing this watch justice (hence, I haven't posted any pictures). For the first few days it was impossible for me to tell the time because I would just stare light flickering around the dial. This watch, bracelet included, is positively blingy. I thought that by getting a watch with Seiko written on the dial it wouldn't attract too much attention. Wrong. So many people have asked what it is. Love this watch! 

Great review. I was actually tossing up between the AT 8500 and the GS. This review and comments helped make my decision easier. GS is a great watch.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Jonathon Calligeros said:


> I got my first luxury watch a couple of weeks ago. The SBGH005, I can attest to pictures not doing this watch justice (hence, I haven't posted any pictures). For the first few days it was impossible for me to tell the time because I would just stare light flickering around the dial. This watch, bracelet included, is positively blingy. I thought that by getting a watch with Seiko written on the dial it wouldn't attract too much attention. Wrong. So many people have asked what it is. Love this watch!
> 
> Great review. I was actually tossing up between the AT 8500 and the GS. This review and comments helped make my decision easier. GS is a great watch.


Glad I could help! I'm surprised how many people have sent me messages or commented...I actually think this was a really good matchup, but I guess I was surprised that other people actually were cross shopping GS with Omega.


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## Yianniathon (Jan 14, 2013)

CitizenM said:


> Glad I could help! I'm surprised how many people have sent me messages or commented...I actually think this was a really good matchup, but I guess I was surprised that other people actually were cross shopping GS with Omega.


I first was considering the AT, and have looked at them multiple times in store. The closest GS dealer is a 5 hour flight from where I live. I came across this review while looking for reviews and possible alternatives the the AT. Seeing all the praise for the GS got me interested. As I've only been getting into watches over the last 6 months, I hadn't heard of Grand Seiko before. The pictures were good but don't capture the awesomeness of the GS. It was a 21st present from my parents and I plan on cherishing this watch forever.


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## bluloo (Nov 24, 2008)

Great pictorial. I enjoy it, each time I re-read the thread.


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## mitadoc (Oct 2, 2010)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

Congrats for the review,really nice comparative approach!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

The Omega may have a new challenger...










More later


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## waldoh (Nov 20, 2011)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



CitizenM said:


> The Omega may have a new challenger...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can a copy challenge the original? Pretty sure superman always beat bizarro in the end.


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## Kratsmoose (Nov 19, 2012)

Man, this is one of the best threads I've read. If I hadn't already had an SBGH001 on the way, this review would have forced me to buy it! It arrived today, so here's the wrist shot (7.25" wrist):










I went to look at that Ball model, but it didn't do as much for me in person as it did in the pictures. On the plus side, anyone wanting the day of the week or tritium tubes should really consider it!

Great job CitizenM!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Kratsmoose said:


> Man, this is one of the best threads I've read. If I hadn't already had an SBGH001 on the way, this review would have forced me to buy it! It arrived today, so here's the wrist shot (7.25" wrist):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's an astonishingly good watch. Take tons of photos for us.


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## Kratsmoose (Nov 19, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> It's an astonishingly good watch. Take tons of photos for us.


Oh, I think you've well covered that! Which is one of the things that made this review so helpful: unbiased, comparative, and loads of natural photos at different angles and in different lighting. It was really the next-best thing to flying over to Japan and holding one!


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



waldoh said:


> Can a copy challenge the original? Pretty sure superman always beat bizarro in the end.


Depends on what you are looking at.
the Red Label watches are powered by 2892-A2 that have been regulated to COSC spec. Now I'm not sure of the exact spec of the one that Ball use but the 2892 in lightly breathed on 1120 form as used in old Omega watches was known to be a very consistent runner. Forum anecdotes point to virtually zero deviation over the course of a week.

Of course, that doesn't take into account biased reporting or non-reporting of the owners taking advantage of positional variance but it does still point to a certain consistency of its performance.
I've always been interested in a 2824 Chronometer spec vs a 2892 Chronometer sec.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

Also, noticing the pond/lake in your photo there, I'm wondering if there's a correlation between hi-beat owners and owning waterfront property.


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## Kratsmoose (Nov 19, 2012)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



CitizenM said:


> Also, noticing the pond/lake in your photo there, I'm wondering if there's a correlation between hi-beat owners and owning waterfront property.


lol Maybe, but at least half the houses in my middle class housing development have "waterfront property." If I had tilted the camera up slightly you'd see the back of around ten other homes about 50 yards away!


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



Kratsmoose said:


> lol Maybe, but at least half the houses in my middle class housing development have "waterfront property." If I had tilted the camera up slightly you'd see the back of around ten other homes about 50 yards away!


Nothing wrong with that, probably a much better location. My house in Waco is in the middle of nowhere.


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## Punkling (Jun 26, 2011)

Kratsmoose said:


> Man, this is one of the best threads I've read. If I hadn't already had an SBGH001 on the way, this review would have forced me to buy it! It arrived today, so here's the wrist shot (7.25" wrist):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mmmmmmm, beautiful. I don't regret buying the black version at all but when I look at that blue hand and that dial I want it!


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

For me the AT8500 beat my Grand Seiko.
Mainly because the GS came to me in used condition and the +8s/day started to bug me a bit more. The AT has the independent set hour hand, more original design and lume which I also liked. 

I have shuffled up my collection the past two weeks have sold my PO and GS and have a Nomos Orion, Sinn 556A and Damasko DA 47 incoming. Just got a 2254.50 to replace the PO as well. Was lucky the 2254.50 was in like new condition.

I think it would have been more difficult if I had bought both the AT and GS new.


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## eschantra (Jul 23, 2013)

This thread is a real danger to my wallet, both beautiful pieces.


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## Sergi0 (Aug 8, 2012)

This is a great thread and I keep coming back to read it! Thanks for the post!


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

In a moment of insanity I almost sold my Aqua Terra, but glad I didn't and have been wearing it everyday for about a week. I definately would have missed it and I only considered selling it because I'm starting a new hobby in photography and just bought some camera stuff. I ended up selling the Omega 2254.50 and Stowa Baumuster B instead...

I sold my GS a couple months ago too. I was actually trying to sell the GS and PO to end up with a more expensive watch but instead ended up with 3 watches ( Nomos Orion, Sinn 556a and the subsequently sold 2254.50). I haven't missed the GS too much but I would definately get one again, even the same SBGR053. I am thinking of adding another one or two watches in the spring and the SBGR053 is pretty hard to beat in terms of value especially now that the IWC and Rolexes I would be interested in are around $4k +++ for used versions and the GS is available brand new for just over $3k.


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## AvantGardeTime (Aug 23, 2013)

I don't quite follow the logic of selling a watch today, at a loss, to buy it again in 6 months.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

AvantGardeTime said:


> I don't quite follow the logic of selling a watch today, at a loss, to buy it again in 6 months.


There is no logic but pure emotion: seller remorse.


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## movet22 (Jun 12, 2011)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

Both are exceptional, but my, my... I love that seiko!


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## AvantGardeTime (Aug 23, 2013)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

I think that would be a good introduction for GS.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

The main reason is that I sold the GS to fund something else. I liked it so I would get it again but this time new.


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## GB MK (May 28, 2012)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*

So many nice words regarding AT bracelet ?! By my opinion, it's way beyond its price range. It feels cheap, light, it rattles, no details, average design. Yes, it is comfortable on the wrist, but that's just because of its weight. PO is much better, Longines has better bracelets for the money, even Depth Master 3000 has much better quality bracelet. 
Is it only me, or ... ? I have feeling that many are blinded because of the brand, movement and 3D dial. That is fine, but doesn't help the bracelet.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

*Re: My two favorite brands ...*



GB MK said:


> So many nice words regarding AT bracelet ?! By my opinion, it's way beyond its price range. It feels cheap, light, it rattles, no details, average design. Yes, it is comfortable on the wrist, but that's just because of its weight. PO is much better, Longines has better bracelets for the money, even Depth Master 3000 has much better quality bracelet.
> Is it only me, or ... ? I have feeling that many are blinded because of the brand, movement and 3D dial. That is fine, but doesn't help the bracelet.


Man sorry I didn't see this a couple months back. I try to check on these really huge threads from time to time.

I actually do really like the Omega's bracelet. Mine doesn't rattle and it doesn't feel light (solid links throughout). I like that it has screws instead of friction pins as well, and I think the brushed look goes well with the rest of the watch. I also really like the two-stage release before it falls off your wrist but isn't a hassle to put on or take off. Yes, it's not quite as elegant or complex as the Grand Seiko's, but functionally, I'd say it's slightly ahead. But of course, bracelet preferences are so subjective, so everyone's view is going to be different in terms of comfort. I was really happy with the Planet Ocean 2500's bracelet as well, although I haven't worn the 8500 version yet (not sure if the bracelet changed much). The bracelet on my old (very old) Constellation has disintegrated but other than that I've had good luck with Omega's bracelets and straps.


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## secrethouse92 (Dec 20, 2012)

GB MK said:


> So many nice words regarding AT bracelet ?! By my opinion, it's way beyond its price range. It feels cheap, light, it rattles, no details, average design. Yes, it is comfortable on the wrist, but that's just because of its weight. PO is much better, Longines has better bracelets for the money, even Depth Master 3000 has much better quality bracelet.
> Is it only me, or ... ? I have feeling that many are blinded because of the brand, movement and 3D dial. That is fine, but doesn't help the bracelet.


I agree with these thoughts regarding the bracelet. I've tried on several ATs and every time I do so I leave blown away by the watch itself yet thinking how surprised I am that it's fitted to what seems like a pretty rickety bracelet. It doesn't fit the feel of the watch. For me it's not a deal breaker but it's definitely noticeable. I like the look of some ATs better than my Explorer ii but I grow to appreciate the new Rolex bracelet more and more every time I try on a different watch.


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## gagnello (Nov 19, 2011)

No question the gs bracelet is superior in every way. More comfortable, better finish, better build, better clasp, better fit to watch head.......just better.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


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## IdiotSavant (Apr 11, 2014)

chesthing said:


> Rarely does heartfelt interest merge with money, unfortunately.


You could have made this into a video, put it on YouTube. If you did a watch a week and you have a good lighting and camera work, you'd be able to make $5,000-$15,000 a month not counting sponsorship.


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## Triton9 (Sep 30, 2011)

I don't think even seiko loses this competition. It will affect the horology of Asian watch maker position. Surprisingly, OP name himself citizenM. I have experience every good things coming out of citizens movement, be it quartz or automatic. They are very robust, maintenance free and surprisely economically. Even the most widely used movement after ETA2824 for 28000bph range come from citizen miyota 9015 and not Seiko. 

Unfortunately, citizen and seiko both have different philosophy in watch making but if citizen are allow to invest most money to produce the best, I have no doubt. Citizen is able to match Seiko best or even surpass them in every catergory.


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## honestlygreedy (Jun 20, 2012)

gagnello said:


> No question the gs bracelet is superior in every way. More comfortable, better finish, better build, better clasp, better fit to watch head.......just better.
> 
> Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk


Not crazy about the GS bracelet, especially the way it integrates with the case. The case and dial are nice, but nothing stands out to me about the bracelet at that price point ($3K+). Imho entry level Zenith bracelets are tough to beat as a value proposition.


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## ed21x (Feb 11, 2011)

Citizen has certain policies that make them keep their brands isolated, which is really unfortunate because the upper echelon miyota movements are really nice, and the bulova precisionist movements are also owned by citizen, but we almost never see these technologies intersect.



Triton9 said:


> I don't think even seiko loses this competition. It will affect the horology of Asian watch maker position. Surprisingly, OP name himself citizenM. I have experience every good things coming out of citizens movement, be it quartz or automatic. They are very robust, maintenance free and surprisely economically. Even the most widely used movement after ETA2824 for 28000bph range come from citizen miyota 9015 and not Seiko.
> 
> Unfortunately, citizen and seiko both have different philosophy in watch making but if citizen are allow to invest most money to produce the best, I have no doubt. Citizen is able to match Seiko best or even surpass them in every catergory.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Triton9 said:


> I don't think even seiko loses this competition. It will affect the horology of Asian watch maker position. Surprisingly, OP name himself citizenM. I have experience every good things coming out of citizens movement, be it quartz or automatic. They are very robust, maintenance free and surprisely economically. Even the most widely used movement after ETA2824 for 28000bph range come from citizen miyota 9015 and not Seiko.
> 
> Unfortunately, citizen and seiko both have different philosophy in watch making but if citizen are allow to invest most money to produce the best, I have no doubt. Citizen is able to match Seiko best or even surpass them in every catergory.


I really like Citizen, but that's not the origin of my name. Actually, it's not part of my name at all, my nickname is just M (in real life).

Citizen does a lot of great stuff, and arguably the greatest stuff when it comes to HEQ, although Seiko's Astron division is actually now probably has the most sophisticated quartz movement in the world, although the A060 and Astron don't go head to head in any normal sense of the word.

However, the Citizen Cal 9000 is likely not the #2 most used 28k movement after the 2824. That would probably fall to a Rolex 3135 or the Valjoux/ETA 7750 or the Sellita SW200, or perhaps the 2892. The cal. 9000 will be important, as I stated in one of my other articles: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/new-c...most-important-movement-decade-727729-10.html but currently I don't think its production numbers are that high--they might be in the relatively near future though, depending on what deals they're forming with Swiss third parties this year.

I'm not sure what the thought is behind Citizen being able to "surpass Seiko in every category." Seiko's no spring chicken and has largely defined Japanese high-end watchmaking, which is if you look at a high-end Citizen, what you're really looking at is a clone of a Grand Seiko, which I think internal to Citizen isn't copying, I think they just feel that's Japanese design in general. They might be right, but we know who came up with those designs initially, and it wasn't Citizen. In terms of high-end mechanical watchmaking, they have to find their footing and their unique sense of style and establish themselves not just as a wannabe Grand Seiko--I know they can do it, they have a really distinctive styling throughout other areas of their lineup, from affordable eco-drives all the way up to Campanolas, many are beautifully and unmistakably Citizen--they need to bring this to their top-tier watches.










This is very clearly a Grand Seiko design. The design of this watch goes back to 1966, when Grand Seiko started using this case, but you don't have to go far back into history to see what I mean:










My point isn't to express anger at Citizen for borrowing the design, my point is that to be taken seriously by watch collectors, they can't afford to be seen as an also-ran to Grand Seiko. They need to bring something new to the table in order to get serious consideration for most buyers, because otherwise, why not just get a Grand Seiko?

On the subject, the Cal 9000 is not Citizen's high-end mechanical movement, it's actually the 0900 line, currently at 0910.










This attractive movement is most obviously distinguished from its more affordable brother, the 9000 line, by the presence of a fine adjustment mechanism. It's rated for better accuracy as well, and most remarkably, has a 10 year warranty. That ought to be enough to get people to consider it.

Still, when one gets to the bottom of it, the specs do not compare favorably with the Seiko 9S65 it competes with. First off, the 9S65 has a 3 day power reserve compared to 42 hours on the 0900, and second, the average allowable daily deviation is +5/-3, compared to the 0900's +10/-5--so a significant edge in power reserve, and frankly, a knock out win in accuracy ratings. Furthermore, the automatic winding system of the Grand Seiko 9S65 is more sophisticated, it's actually using the Swiss design in this generation which allows for bidirectional winding, compared to Miyota's love for unidirectional winding. Some people now claim that unidirectional is as good or better than bidirectional, which I do not currently believe, but regardless, you still have two other certain advantages in Seiko's favor.

Also note that the 9S65 is actually Grand Seiko's entry level mechanical movement, not their top of the line. Were I to put Seiko's best up against Citizen's, the difference would be even more remarkable--namely, the 9S85 Hi-Beat Special.

Now I think Citizen's high-end quartz department is much more competitive, but that's not really on the subject you're bringing up, which was regarding their mechanical 9000 movements.

My point is not that Citizen is bad by any means, I've very nearly bought a Citizen Signature Automatic many times, and I've owned many Citizen watches, including a Signature Grand Complication--I loved all of them. I'm a fan, in other words. But I do think the claim that Citizen can or does surpass Grand Seiko in every metric is objectively false, especially when discussing mechanical movements. Also, Citizen is rolling in cash, so it's not as if their R&D department is hurting--they can make anything they want, I'm sure, minute repeaters, whatever you can imagine.

But Citizen is a great business and they are probably aware that luxury divisions like Grand Seiko are a lot of work for very little revenue. I'm definitely curious to see what Citizen brings to the table in 5-10 years in terms of Grand Seiko competition.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I don't mind it lol, but how did we get on the topic of Citizen watches again?


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## Triton9 (Sep 30, 2011)

CitizenM said:


> I really like Citizen, but that's not the origin of my name. Actually, it's not part of my name at all, my nickname is just M (in real life).
> 
> Citizen does a lot of great stuff, and arguably the greatest stuff when it comes to HEQ, although Seiko's Astron division is actually now probably has the most sophisticated quartz movement in the world, although the A060 and Astron don't go head to head in any normal sense of the word.
> 
> ...


I dont think 3135 movt is available for export to other watch brand. ETA 7750 and ETA2892 are still under swatch group. Selita SW200 is basically continue position left over by ETA2824 since it supplier is control. Miyota 9015 is in a good position to claim former post by ETA2824.

Citizen and seiko has both different strategy when comes horology. Citizen see exporting movement as a core business of her. While seiko see more of its business in selling a whole watch and the very high end. Citizen i see is contend trying to avoid a direct competition with seiko while trying to combine both their effort against the Europe and China.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Regardless of the fact that the 3135 isn't supplied to third parties, it's still extremely common and mass produced and is likely very high up on the list of number of 28k movements sold. 

Miyota is definitely a very important movement supplier, but don't underestimate the importance of SII either. Furthermore, Seiko supplies the design and important parts for the TAG 1887 and sells last-generation Grand Seiko movements to Junghans and maybe other companies we don't know about, so Seiko has made substantial inroads in the European luxury market already.

Still, my point of disagreement was the major claim that Citizen was superior on the high end of watchmaking, which I don't think has been substantiated in an objective way.

Citizen and Seiko are both great businesses, and their non-name brand revenue for both is huge. Citizen wants to make its mark by buying up subsidiaries...they want to do business like Swatch Group...own many companies, be everywhere at every price point, and sell parts and movements to third parties. Seiko wants to be Seiko, their secondary business is largely subsidiaries that were indirectly generated through watch research, like Epson printers, LCDs, glasses, golf clubs and so on. 

From a revenue standpoint, they're both forces to be reckoned with, and they don't mind going to war.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

Talking about Citizen unique technology, a couple of years ago, at an Auto supliers exhibition, I have seen a Citizen prototype watch that replaced rubies with some self lubricated bushings - the advantage was no need for lubrication service. Unfortunately I cannot find any info on internet about it.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> Talking about Citizen unique technology, a couple of years ago, at an Auto supliers exhibition, I have seen a Citizen prototype watch that replaced rubies with some self lubricated bushings - the advantage was no need for lubrication service. Unfortunately I cannot find any info on internet about it.


Very interesting...I haven't heard about this either. It'll be interesting to see what their cal 0900 will do in its second generation. It may be their equivalent to the 9S55, evolutionary speaking that is.

They're quite a wild card at the moment, with their Swiss involvement. I believe the cal 9000, in some form or another, will be their play for ETA's market share, but in terms of high-end watches, anything is possible with them right now, with their recent acquisitions that is.

It's also interesting that Citizen seems to have borrowed Seiko's numbering system with regard to mechanical movements, where the number 9 is always the prefix to their current top-tier movements.


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## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)




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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

I need to get another GS and SBGE009 and SBGR051 are on my short list this time


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

cadomniel said:


> I need to get another GS and SBGE009 and SBGR051 are on my short list this time


We could all use another GS alright. It's a miracle I don't buy more already.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> ...
> Still, when one gets to the bottom of it, the specs do not compare favorably with the Seiko 9S65 it competes with. First off, the 9S65 has a 3 day power reserve compared to 42 hours on the 0900, and second, the average allowable daily deviation is +5/-3, compared to the 0900's +10/-5--so a significant edge in power reserve, and frankly, a knock out win in accuracy ratings. Furthermore, the automatic winding system of the Grand Seiko 9S65 is more sophisticated, it's actually using the Swiss design in this generation which allows for bidirectional winding, compared to Miyota's love for unidirectional winding. Some people now claim that unidirectional is as good or better than bidirectional, which I do not currently believe, but regardless, you still have two other certain advantages in Seiko's favor.
> ...
> 
> But Citizen is a great business and they are probably aware that luxury divisions like Grand Seiko are a lot of work for very little revenue. I'm definitely curious to see what Citizen brings to the table in 5-10 years in terms of Grand Seiko competition.


If one thinks long term, 10 years guarantee + 2 free maintenance services seems like a better value proposition in favor of The CITIZEN. Also, if one wants to sell it, it may hold value better while in guarantee.

I wonder if 10 years later you GS will maintain its accuracy without some expensive overhaul. Even if it does, you have no guarantee for it.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> If one thinks long term, 10 years guarantee + 2 free maintenance services seems like a better value proposition in favor of The CITIZEN. Also, if one wants to sell it, it may hold value better while in guarantee.
> 
> I wonder if 10 years later you GS will maintain its accuracy without some expensive overhaul. Even if it does, you have no guarantee for it.


GS services are pretty reasonable price wise, but even without it, the GS would have to almost double its accuracy rating just to match the accuracy rating on the 0900 on day 1.

I think the other possible problem is that there aren't any free services on the 0910, assuming it falls within the warranty specs of course. You have two free inspections in the impressive ten year warranty, and if it fails an inspection, then I assume you'd get a free service.

Still, I wonder if the loose accuracy specs on the 0910 aren't there in order to make sure it can reach the stated specs 9 years in. In other words, I wonder if it outperforms its rating more than most movements do, at least initially.

We need to get some owners to let us know how well it performs. Of course, even if that is their strategy, it has pros and cons--like if you get unlucky and get an inaccurate one on day 1, you have less recourse than you would with a Grand Seiko--conversely, if it gets really, really inaccurate at year 5, you'd have the ability to get free service where you'd have to pay for it on the GS. So a little give and take there.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> GS services are pretty reasonable price wise, but even without it, the GS would have to almost double its accuracy rating just to match the accuracy rating on the 0900 on day 1.
> 
> I think the other possible problem is that there aren't any free services on the 0910, assuming it falls within the warranty specs of course. You have two free inspections in the impressive ten year warranty, and if it fails an inspection, then I assume you'd get a free service.
> 
> ...


I am not sure exactly but my understanding is the 2 free overhauls are part of the deal. Customers should send the watch to Citizen for service every 3-4 years in order to maintain the warranty that it runs within specs. As such, if the watch is not accurate from day 1, it will be fixed without affecting the two overhauls.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> I am not sure exactly but my understanding is the 2 free overhauls are part of the deal. Customers should send the watch to Citizen for service every 3-4 years in order to maintain the warranty that it runs within specs. As such, if the watch is not accurate from day 1, it will be fixed without affecting the two overhauls.


I tried to find Citizen stating this, but was unable to. Here's the main page for the watch: ??????????????????????????CTY57-1271?CITIZEN-????????

Granted, much of it is in Japanese, but they don't seem to discuss the warranty at all.

I'm mainly citing Hodinkee, which has been the biggest authority I can find on the subject: Citizen Introduces Their First (Luxury) Mechanical Watch, Ever: A Ten Year Warranty & Eco-Drive, No More!

"- *10 year warranty *with two free inspections during the period"

So as far as I can tell, there are no free overhauls, just free inspections, which could result in a free overhaul if it doesn't meet the conditions specified in the warranty. In order to guarantee a watch for ten years without some sort of crazy new technology, this was probably necessitated to limit costs on their end, otherwise they might be doing much more expensive work on warranty 9 years in.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

CitizenM said:


> I tried to find Citizen stating this, but was unable to. Here's the main page for the watch: ??????????????????????????CTY57-1271?CITIZEN-????????
> 
> Granted, much of it is in Japanese, but they don't seem to discuss the warranty at all.
> 
> ...


Free inspection without overhaul? I am not sure what does it mean. It does not make much sense to me to just check the watch for accuracy without cleaning and oiling. Any mechanical (maybe except the co-axials) is recommended to have cleaning and oiling after 3-4 years of usage. IMO the offer from Citizen has this regular maintenance included in the buying price.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

Orex said:


> Free inspection without overhaul? I am not sure what does it mean. It does not make much sense to me to just check the watch for accuracy without cleaning and oiling. Any mechanical (maybe except the co-axials) is recommended to have cleaning and oiling after 3-4 years of usage. IMO the offer from Citizen has this regular maintenance included in the buying price.


It is odd, but that's what all the available data points to at the moment. If I remember I'll e-mail Citizen tonight and see what they say.


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## chochocho (Jun 4, 2015)

thanks for the comparison very interesting


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## Krell0 (Jan 22, 2016)

Thanks for the review/comparison. Immensely greatfull that you took such an incredible amount of time to do such an amazing comparison. I wasn't really between buying the two but I have been on the edge about the GS. I was looking for more information on its movement and these tests were definitely a part of that and a huge benefit to my decision making process. You the end of the review I was practically routing for the grand seiko and it was a little sad to see it basically lose the isochronism test, but I think you were right about it gaining back seconds and for day to day it seems more practically accurate. I had heard about how well it plays with light, but you have definitely set this fact in stone. At first I did not believe seiko when they said "traditional watchmaking elevated to the form of art," but that is seeming more true every day. I would never purchase a watch based only on a single review and I will be searching for more information, but this was definitely instrumental in my decision making process. And is leading me to purchase a special and unique watch. Thank you

Sent from my SM-G925P using Tapatalk


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## DickoryDoc (Jan 25, 2016)

I really enjoyed reading this seminal comparison, but am I the only one for whom the photos aren't displaying in the OP?


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## spydie fanatic (Dec 24, 2009)

The original post is 4 years and 4 months old...the links/pic upload may no longer be valid.


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## DickoryDoc (Jan 25, 2016)

Sure, that's true. I noticed a few older posts still have photos though so thought it may be because I haven't been registered on the site long enough to see them or something. Shame, but the review is still great reading even without the pics!


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