# Will Sellita save Zenith?



## Fantasio

Last night I found the news about Sellita being used in lower priced Zeniths, and Elite movement possibly being discontinued. Dufour said in Watch Insider's interview that Elite is a good quality movement, but "_only a three hand movement_" so they rather replace it with outsourced ones. Because of capacity issues Zenith will concentrate in El Primero production and supply them to other LVMH brands. The main motivation behind Zenith's decision is of course financial, Dufour said it also in the interview himself. To my surprise yesterday's thread was closed for some reason, so I started another one. I would like to see more discussion about the matter, surely this forum has room also for critical views.

Do forum members here believe that introducing stock movements will help Zenith to attract larger audience and more sales in entry level, like for example TAG and IWC have managed?

Will this have an effect on Zenith's image in higher category models and on the brand in general?

Is this first negative attitude just a sentimental reaction of a passionate WIS crowd, which has no larger effect on sales and profitability?

Will this change of route against common watch industry trend be a good decision in the long run, and is it a requirement to keep Zenith alive?

Please share your thoughts. :think:


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## Alex_TA

Save? Keep alive?

The patient seems quite cheerful. On some models there is a months-long queue.

I would hesitate to give advices if it is not the business of my grandpa ;-)


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## richy176

I doubt if many watch buyers really know much about the movements other than between a mechanical and quartz. A lot of `brands' have used the ETA movements for years and are still considered `quality brands'.

How many people who buy a Rolex know anything about the movement. They just know that it is a quality watch that will keep good time under most conditions. Rolex are very good at marketing and have probably established the brand to such an extent that it is about the most well known watch around.

Maybe this move will expand the Zenith brand into more high street stores (at the moment it is hard to find a dealer). 

This move would not make me want to sell off my El Primeros - they are far too good to do that.


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## Fantasio

I'm not trying to give advice to Zenith (even though I'd like to give them some personal opinions ;-)), but I'm hoping to see more discussion about the issue in this forum. After all it's a fundamental decision for the brand, at least in my opinion.



Alex_TA said:


> Save? Keep alive?
> 
> The patient seems quite cheerful. On some models there is a months-long queue.
> 
> I would hesitate to give advices if it is not the business of my grandpa ;-)


I don't know the financial status of Zenith. Dufour said in the interview (Baselworld 2014: Interview with Jean-Fred Dufour CEO Zenith) that during his time Zenith's turnover has grown 3.5 times, but bigger turnover is not bigger profitability. My questions were just based on some thoughts expressed in other threads, hence the terms *save* and *keep alive*. Underlinings in quotes are my markings.



catlike said:


> There are a lot of assumptions being made here, including by me. A lot of people here are making comments based on the assumption that the previous Zenith business model was OK? I would assume that for Zenith to make a drastic move like this that they are in certain amount of trouble, in which case, staying as they are would be the worst business move. That is not to say that this is necessarily the best move, I don't have enough info to make that judgement, but I have seen plenty of good companies go under by defiantly sticking to their principles, core values and business model.





Rdenney said:


> Honestly, do you have any notion of the actual business situation of Zenith? Or of the LVMH watch division? As easily as this could be a bad decision (from the perspective of those who never bought an Elite at full retail anyway), it could be the decision that keeps Zenith in sufficient cash flow to keep the EP in production.
> 
> My point is that we love Zenith, but the last time it demonstrated sustained financial success with its own branded watches was in the 60's. And the only reason it still exists is because of the El Primero, not because between '94 and now it used no supplied movements.
> 
> Rick "who'd rather have a successful Zenith making entry models with good supplied movements than no Zenith at all" Denney





catlike said:


> Having been personally involved in global company decisions of outsourcing components previously made in-house, closing manufacturing and selling off traditional product lines - I can tell you that those decisions were never taken lightly and created a lot of emotion & anxiety within the company. Decision making also often involved years of study and looking at alternative solutions before a final decision was made. What the market never understood was that these decisions were made for the survival of a brand or product that would likely die if nothing was done. Zenith is obviously being forced into a corner from a financial perspective, these decisions are always financial and I am sure this would not be an overnight issue. Even if it is a capacity problem, it is likely that funds needed for expansion are not available or simply can't be justified?





mpalmer said:


> Furthermore this flies in the face of what almost every established brand with means is doing/trying to do these days. Oris just announced an in-house caliber. The only reason this makes sense to me is that they simply sell so few of these watches that production numbers are so small they cannot make money. And if this is the case, this is a more of a marketing/branding/design problem than a movement problem.
> 
> This move almost makes me wonder about the overall health of the brand and its economic viability. It almost seems like a cost cutting/austerity measure brought on by financial dire straits than something designed to advance the brand in the long term.


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## sempervivens

Fantasio said:


> Last night I found the news about Sellita being used in lower priced Zeniths, and Elite movement possibly being discontinued. Dufour said in Watch Insider's interview that Elite is a good quality movement, but "_only a three hand movement_" so they rather replace it with outsourced ones. Because of capacity issues Zenith will concentrate in El Primero production and supply them to other LVMH brands. The main motivation behind Zenith's decision is of course financial, Dufour said it also in the interview himself. To my surprise yesterday's thread was closed for some reason, so I started another one.
> 
> ...
> 
> Please share your thoughts. :think:


I'm also surprised that the above mentioned thread was closed, apparently for no reason except that 'it was going nowhere'. I think closing a thread is an extreme measure which should only be used if somebody uses bad language or something like that.

So I'm going to 'support' this discussion with my 2 cents.

Bottom line seems to me that Zenith is going to concentrate on the El Primero.

It is sad that they will discontinue the Elite, because from what I've heard it is an excellent movement.

One of the reasons may be that Zenith has to produce the El Primero also for other brands of the LVMH group.

It would be best if Zenith could get out of this prison, but that is not likely to happen soon.


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## catlike

Alex_TA said:


> Save? Keep alive?
> 
> The patient seems quite cheerful. On some models there is a months-long queue.
> 
> I would hesitate to give advices if it is not the business of my grandpa ;-)


As Fantasio pointed out - a full order book doesn't necessarily = profitability.

IMO Zenith is a little different to other watchmakers in the pool it operates in. As was touched on in the F2 thread, the competition is best known for particular models ie. Speedmaster, Daytona, Navitimer, Seamaster, Carrera, Submariner, Portuguese, Avenger etc., whereas Zenith is best known for a movement. Does this have any relevance at all or have a bearing on the decision? I have absolutely no idea :-s


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## Fantasio

Yeah, it was pretty rapid intervention. I wonder how far the thread should have gotten after 11 hours and 15 posts.

You are absolutely right, in the interview Dufour says (at 08:55) that abandoning Elite was a matter of production capacity. Zenith can now make annually 50.000 movements and they are not willing to go further. So Zenith had to sacrifice their own inhouse three hand movement in order to be able to supply other LVMH brands with El Primeros.

At the time when LVMH makes a manufacture brand like Zenith outsource stock movements rather than increase production volumes, a small independent company like Nomos has invested 11,4 M€ to create their own escapement. Just saying... :roll:



sempervivens said:


> I'm also surprised that the above mentioned thread was closed, apparently for no reason except that 'it was going nowhere'. I think closing a thread is an extreme measure which should only be used if somebody uses bad language or something like that.
> 
> One of the reasons may be that Zenith has to produce the El Primero also for other brands of the LVMH group.


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## Hessu

Seems like history is repeating itself. In the past owners wanted Zenith to be Movado's assembly line, now a movement factory for TAG Heuer.


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## rfortson

Well, glad I got my Elite HW while the "gettin' was good". I'll say that I was primarily interested in the watch be of the manufacture movement. Otherwise, Zenith becomes less distinguishable from other brands for me, with the obvious exclusion of the El Primero movement.


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## p_mcgee

I've got a class elite (moonphase) and a couple of ETA based watches. I think the only person who would even notice the difference would be a WIS. 

If Zenith has to concentrate their production capacity on making movements for more profitable brands, that's the way it's gonna be. I've spent a lot of time on Zenith's website and in my opinion the design side is challenge for them.


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## Rdenney

Hessu said:


> Seems like history is repeating itself. In the past owners wanted Zenith to be Movado's assembly line, now a movement factory for TAG Heuer.


That is an overstatement. TH has its own manufacturing capability--larger than Zenith--but they don't make El Primeros. EPs will always bring more revenue and profit than a three-hand movement.

50,000 is not a huge output by any means. I can see why they would want to optimize their production capacity on their most famous and profitable movement.

I suspect Dan closed the thread because it seemed speculative. And it seemed that way to all of us until Zenith included the movement descriptions for the Pilot Extra Special and the Port Royal on their website.

Zenith wasn't even allowed to sell in the US and Canada until a dozen years ago. Their dealer network failed and now one can hardly find an example to buy. That is a critical problem they must solve--making movements for more sellable brands has saved them in the past. As I said elsewhere, there have been more EPs sold in other brands of watches than in Zenith-branded watches. If the required cash flow is sustained by selling EPs to TH and Hublot, then Zeniths will continue to be available.

Rick "or they could sell the movement and go to sleep, like Ebel" Denney


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## sempervivens

Fantasio said:


> Yeah, it was pretty rapid intervention. I wonder how far the thread should have gotten after 11 hours and 15 posts.


Makes me wonder where this forum is going. Or where we are going. Or to put it in the famous words of Sienkiewicz: _Quo vadis? _


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## Jaqesq

Wow...I really like the brand and many of the products but the move does make me fear a bit for the direction and reputation. I'm fairly certain if the move above is true it is not without a pretty valid business reason, however, it still is a bit disappointing to me though. Nothing against base or modified Sellita or ETA ebauches, I've have had quite a few watches (IWC, Omega, Panerai, etc.) with them and liked them all, it just seems to be headed away from the path most others are taking. I wonder if there is a related reason why I usually see steep discounts in abundance when I'm researching many Zenith models.


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## omeglycine

I just don't understand why Zenith would be lined up to make movements for TAG when TAG has recently introduced 2 in-house (I know, 1887 began life as a Seiko design) chronograph movements. And does LVMH think there's that much market share to be gained sticking EPs in fashion watches (Bulgari and Hublot)? I am not using the term "fashion" in a derogatory manner; just stating that imo Hublots and Bulgari "Bulgari" chronographs are more about form than function. In respect to function, a 7750, 2894 or Sellita equivalent will perform quite well anyway. They haven't been using the movement to sell these watches in the past (quite successfully I might add).

I understand the TAG link has also been speculative, but I am just struggling to see where using Zenith as a movement manufacturer for their other brands nets them significant gains, given their recent investments (UNICO as well). Now if the plan is to produce 50,000 EPs for the Zenith brand, I'm all for it.


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## Hartmut Richter

I feel it's time for a reply and some explanations.....

First of all, the initial thread was closed not on account of everything worth saying having been said but because of the precise way some things were said. I am in Germany, Dan is in the eastern US and if we log on at the same time of day in our respective areas, there are about 16-17 hours when the forum is unattended. In that sort of time, things can easily get nasty if the seeds are sown. I won't go into details but will say that, although Dan's reason for closure could perhaps have been marginally better worded, I fully support the fact that he did it. I have left an explanatory note in the old forum, feel free to continue here.

Secondly, I cannot really condone Zenith's decision. I would raise my eyebrows at the use of ETA or Sellita copy movements to introduce a basic range below the Elite (it would be OK if they did this with a subbrand, e.g. reintroducing the "Diogene" or "Billodes" brand name - after all, Rolex has Tudor and in the past, the practice was even more common) but I cannot in any way understand the closing down of the Elite movement production in favour of using generic movements. This is all the more so since Zenith is famous for its movements rather than its watch models. So much more that (apparently) the name "El Primero", which was originally associated with a watch model, became the name of a movement. On top of that, it is "swimming against the stream" - all other renowned makers are turning away from the use of generic movements in favour of the production of at least one manufacture calibre.

If this trend continues, Zenith will end up - perish the thought!! - the way that Minerva went: just the movement making section of a far lesser brand, such as Bulgari, TAG Heuer or Hublot. And no, I don't consider TAG Heuer to be anwhere close to Zenith with regards to making movements. Their Cal. 1887 was bought from Seiko and the only real in house movements were "niche" movements like the Cal. 360.

Hartmut Richter


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## ducatidoc

catlike said:


> IMO Zenith is a little different to other watchmakers in the pool it operates in. As was touched on in the F2 thread, the competition is best known for particular models ie. Speedmaster, Daytona, Navitimer, Seamaster, Carrera, Submariner, Portuguese, Avenger etc., whereas Zenith is best known for a movement. Does this have any relevance at all or have a bearing on the decision? I have absolutely no idea :-s


You echoed my thoughts exactly. Is El Primero a movement (Yes) or a watch model (hmm..) ? Almost every other major brand has (a) model(s) that they are known for . Which model is the archetype Zenith?


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## WTSP

Fantasio said:


> Do forum members here believe that introducing stock movements will help Zenith to attract larger audience and more sales in entry level, like for example TAG and IWC have managed?


I was initiated to Zenith when I purchased a Class Elite Hand Wound (HW) model. I made this purchase because it was a manufacture movement from a very respected brand and at a good price. This later lead me to looking deeper into Zenith's history and the story of the El Primero. At that point I know I had to have the chronograph as well. This process may not have occurred if the models that I was looking at had just been 2892 clones. I simply would have kept looking and never really gotten hooked on the brand.

It's true that this process might also play out with a Sellita. A less expensive Zenith model with a generic movement may offer an entry point to the brand for a larger number of people who will then learn to appreciate and seek the experience of an in-house movement, at which point they will become customers for higher end pieces. However, I think that the first scenario with the Elite is more likely to succeed for Zenith and allow it to maintain the niche cachet that is its (fleeting) asset.


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## mpalmer

I find the idea that Zenith is going to now concentrate on the El Primero a little humorous. It seems to me, this is pretty much what the brand has done for years.

I suspect the reason the Elite may be discontinued is that production numbers of the movement are so low (because so few are sold) that production costs were prohibitively high to reap enough profit. Therefore, despite getting their own movement at cost, casing Sellita is still cheaper.

What I don't understand is why demand cannot be increased. If a company like Nomos can produce its own movement and make it profitable (and brand with a far lesser history than Zenith) why Zenith cannot put in place a marketing strategy to accomplish something similar. Particularly, since the R&D costs are already sunk and the company gets its own movements at cost… Increasing production numbers would have to drop the cost, and I just cannot believe that producing its own movement at and getting it at cost could be more than paying for Sellita if larger numbers of the movement were produced.


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## Mediocre

I think it is a great move for Sellita...


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## D N Ravenna

Mediocre said:


> I think it is a great move for Sellita...


I will admit, that if I was drinking milk when I read your post, I would have shot it out through my nose. ;-)

At least they are not using Sea Gull. FWIW, I have the WUS Dual Crown 2012 Project Watch, and the Chinese movement in it is really nicely done, BUt I prefer a Zenith movement in my Zenith watch. Having seen my old favorite Minerva go down the tubes, I keep hoping Zenith is making the right moves.

Cbeers,

Dan


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## Hessu

If the sales are low, the problem is not Elite but the sale price. 
If compare to Omega, you can't get even a most modest Zenith, waterresistant 30m watch with leatherstrap for a price of Seamaster with metalband and waterresistant 300m. The answer is not to use ETA2824-2 clone Sellita and lower a price a bit and hope for sales. Sure, Sellita can be a very good movement for factories who are not even able to produce their own movements. 

At the moment Zenith has a huge problem in design section. These new XXXL watches for rap-stars are not the answer. It's Nataf's Defy all over again. By design XXXL-watches may appeal young customers who are into fashion watches, but are they in numbers ready to dumb +5k for a watch? The sales tell that, this is not the case. When you invest serious amount of money to a watch, every sensible buyer is then conservative, because of it's the best way to protect your investment.


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## Rdenney

Hessu said:


> If the sales are low, the problem is not Elite but the sale price.
> If compare to Omega, you can't get even a most modest Zenith, waterresistant 30m watch with leatherstrap for a price of Seamaster with metalband and waterresistant 300m. The answer is not to use ETA2824-2 clone Sellita and lower a price a bit and hope for sales. Sure, Sellita can be a very good movement for factories who are not even able to produce their own movements.
> 
> At the moment Zenith has a huge problem in design section. These new XXXL watches for rap-stars are not the answer. It's Nataf's Defy all over again. By design XXXL-watches may appeal young customers who are into fashion watches, but are they in numbers ready to dumb +5k for a watch? The sales tell that, this is not the case. When you invest serious amount of money to a watch, every sensible buyer is then conservative, because of it's the best way to protect your investment.


1. The Zenith 3000 is a Selitta SW300, not a 2824 clone. The SW300 is based on the 2892, which would be hard to argue is not as good as the Elite, if properly finished. We know that ETA sells only complete movements with no finishing by the end customer. We do NOT know that this is the case with Selitta. It's possible that these will be more nicely finished than the highest grade that Selitta offers as a completed movement.









Selitta SW300 (from Selitta's web site).









Zenith Caliber 3000 (from Zenith's web site).

2. Most Zenith watches are quite conservatively styled and sized these days. The Nataf era is long gone, along with the Defy Extreme line. I don't see any watches in the line that are even close to those Defy Extreme models. Their watches for men are sized in the range of 38-45.5mm, with only a few models of the latter size. All the designs refer back to earlier eras--the 60's for the Captains, the 70's for the El Primero (watches, not movements), pre-WWII eras for the Pilots, and so on. A couple of the Pilot models were based on strapped pocket watches of the deep past, and one model (a limited edition) was quite large.










Current regular-production Zenith Stratos Flyback, 45.5mm, versus a Defy Xtreme from around 2006 (at a somewhat larger scale). Nope, not much resemblance. The case diameter is only a little bigger on the Xtreme, but the current model doesn't have all that chrown and pusher stuff going on.

Back on the general topic: Someone made a very clever suggestion that LVMH should make the Elite the three-hand movement of choice for the whole group. To do that, they'd have to move production to a larger facility so that the traditional Zenith manufacture can focus on El Primero movements. But making the Elite at Tag-Heuer just down the road would free them of dependence on any outside supplier, and would make Elites in enough quantity to attain economies of scale. But as I pointed out in another thread, M. Dufour, in driving the two or three miles to Tag-Heuer's office on Rue de Louis Chevrolet in La Chaux de Fonds, would literaly pass right by Selitta's offices. Were I M. Biver, I'd be wondering if the owners of Selitta had considered their investment options.

Rick "at least people are talking about Zenith" Denney


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## Hartmut Richter

I hardly think that it's a question of space. Zenith has lots of space on its site to increase movement production. It may be a question of staff (good quality, trained watchmakers looking for jobs are getting rare) and it will probably be a question of $$$: if your machinery is running non-stop, you need more machinery and that takes investment. And from what I've seen over the last 15 years, LVMH do not seem to be regarding Zenith as the premium brand in the collection, similar to Omega taking first place among the Swatch brands. Others like Bvlgari and even TAG Heuer seem to be regarded more favourably despite (or even because of?!!) the fact that the former has simply sold generic movements at exorbitant prices for most of its history and that the latter only has extremely trendy, though (semi-)generic based, chronographs in its history (Monaco, Carrera, Autavia).

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

Hartmut makes a good point. I've been to the factory in the last year and they have top notch equipment and people. My guess is that it is a people thing. Much of the equipment is CNC and can run indefinitely with minimal supervision. My perception is that they spent good money for some rather excellent equipment.

Sometimes, I also wonder if it is the large number of models that creates drag in the production. I certainly like that they can offer much, but even changing hands and the dial creates a whole new network of parts numbers and trays that have to be managed.

I am not sure how offering watches with the SW300 in it help, unless even more operations are being contracted out.

It's bound to get even more interesting as time goes on.

Regards,

Dan


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## rsgould

When Dufour took the reins at Zenith, it was exciting to see a return to reasonably sized, more conservative watches, at competitive prices for in-house movements. He also took steps to reduce the product offerings to a more rational and manageable collection. After much consideration, I bought an Elite Dual Time from an AD and I really love it. Nevertheless, I think Zenith is still a bit confused about its identity.

I think _some_ of the new Captain models are absolutely nailing it in terms of design, especially the newest 2014 models that are using Arabic numerals in place of batons. These are really elegant:









The newer Captain Winsor improves on the original, which was already an incredible offering. I'm not sure if this is still a boutique-only watch:









At the other end of the spectrum, Zenith still insists on putting out these monstrous big pilot watches, which I suppose appeal to the Hublot/AP ROO/Sevenfriday crowd, but just seem kind of ridiculous to me. I mean, seriously, this thing? They couldn't even line up the subdials even though the price is in the six figures:









Then they'll put out stuff that has what seems best described as a design mistake, evidenced by the fact that they fixed it in the newer iteration. Seems quite rushed:















This leaves me perpetually frustrated with a brand that I really _want_ to love and get behind, but it always seems like they're taking two steps forward, one step back. Certainly the addition of Sellita movements is another step backwards...

Then there is the gray market pricing (dumping?), which has been mentioned several times in this thread. It does not inspire confidence in terms of any kind of value retention. There are Zenith watches in the current collection that I want to buy. I don't see anything else on the market at this price range with a dial like this, for example:









But the shenanigans at the company make me wonder if I shouldn't just play it safe and buy a JLC or a GO.


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## Hartmut Richter

All valid points, I'm afraid. Although I rather preferred the *first *version of the Captain Moonphase.....

Ultimately, Zenith should probably put more trust in their heritage and inner qualities. They don't need to come up with new designs every few months and they don't need to change the details of one design either. They need to advertise a little more and advertise their strengths. To the best of my knowledge, they have won 2333 prizes for accuracy and 1565 of them first prizes, more than any other brand. However, this doesn't crop up anywhere in the adverts I have seen. *This* is the sort of message they should hammer home - and live up to it (by concentrating on ensuring the accuracy of their watches, new or serviced). At the same time, work on eliminating weaknesses (like lack of waterproofing on most watches!) and upgrade the value of their watches, even if it means going down the Rolex road (i.e. preventing rebates and grey market dealing of new watches, by checking up on ADs). You don't have to be cheap, you don't have to be extra expensive either but you do have to be credible in your pricing. If you can justify the price tag you put on watches, people will still buy them as long as they can afford them. And putting cheaper movements in your watches to reduce the price tag is still IMO the wrong way.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hessu

Spot on Hartmut! I also find it disturbing that Zenith seem to be making a special edition after another that come and go like, spring and fall models of fashion watches. Seems like Zenith is using markets like testlaboratory (remember that Alchron EP, that had problems with plating). Zenith is also consentrating to much to mr fancy pants watches, where are robust very reliable watches like original Defy? Waterproofness is a valued feature by most customers. Making a watch with 200m waterresistance is always a safe and favoured buy for watch users and thru that good seller. It has worked for Heuer, Breitling and Rolex.


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## nickma

My word, that Type 20 Chronometre Grand Feu is truly shameful. Do they really have to go after every market that moves including Uzbek billionaires and deposed Ukranian premiers?

Dufour talks about building a brand - someone needs to tell him a brand needs to have brand integrity. I've said it before, there are simply too many models and too much going on. What does Zenith stand for? Right now, it seems, a movement and that's it.


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## Fantasio

Hartmut and Hessu made both excellent remarks. To me it looks like Zenith hasn't taken advantage of its history in marketing, and collection isn't the best possible. A three handed sports watch or diver would be a nice addition. Somebody mentioned that WUS is full of "armchair watch executives" who think knowing better than professionals how to run a brand. So maybe we can come up a list of actions for Zenith. :-d

I tried to compare revenue vs. marketing ratio (ROMI?), but found only total turnover and US marketing expenses. It doesn't tell the whole story, because some brands might be more aggressive in US while some rely more on other markets. I compared ten brands (Bell&Ross, Breitling, Hublot, JLC, Longines, Omega, Panerai, Rolex, TAG and Zenith) and calculated how much turnover they received for every dollar invested in US marketing. Best three was JLC-Longines-Hublot, and worst three was Zenith-Breitling-Bell&Ross. Maybe somebody with better data could make a more accurate comparison.

FIGURES FIGURES FIGURES

Million Dollar Club 2012: Watch Advertising at All-Time High | WATCHTIME.COM


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## rsgould

I think there is some consensus in this thread regarding Zenith's design and marketing, the former of which is occasionally confused or lackluster while the latter is nonexistent. I'm based in Asia and I can't recall seeing a single Zenith ad, even in a city like Hong Kong which advertises watches the way most places advertise soft drinks.

I sure hope Zenith or their LVMH overlords occasionally read these forums.


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## patryn33

Doubt those guys follow forum, start voicing on their Facebook


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## WTSP

Rdenney said:


> Someone made a very clever suggestion that LVMH should make the Elite the three-hand movement of choice for the whole group.


Thanks Rick, I believe that may have been me. ;-)



Rdenney said:


> But as I pointed out in another thread, M. Dufour, in driving the two or three miles to Tag-Heuer's office on Rue de Louis Chevrolet in La Chaux de Fonds, would literaly pass right by Selitta's offices. Were I M. Biver, I'd be wondering if the owners of Selitta had considered their investment options.


Based on a recent interview with Dufour by Watches.tv at Baselworld 2014, it sounds as though you're right. Dufour literally states "The closest place to Le Locle, is Le Crêt-du-Locle, so this is why we decided to ask Sellita..." Of course there were other considerations aside from proximity. He confirms that the reasoning was to have a lower entry price, stating that the MSRP of one of the Zenith 3000 models will be CHF 2,900 (~USD$3,200). I have to say that while this is not cheap, it's certainly not as high as some people expected (I heard things like 4,000 euros on others forums). Montblanc and other companies charge similar prices for regular three hand watches with ETA 2892/SW300 movements, so it appears _relatively_ reasonable. Still not a tempting acquisition in my book...


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## Rdenney

I'm recently returned from a visit to that area. I will write a more significant report, but I can say that it takes about right minutes to drive from Zenith to Sellita, including the traffic in Le Locle. It take closer to a half hour to drive from Zenith to Ponts de Martel, over a significant ridge line, for those who remember their Zenith history. 

Rick "who could elicit no discussion of this topic at the Zenith boutique in Geneva" Denney


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## D N Ravenna

Rdenney said:


> ...Rick "who could elicit no discussion of this topic at the Zenith boutique in Geneva" Denney


They are rather darn snippy at those Geneva boutiques. I think the bouncer at the Omega one was going to throw me out for looking through the window before I even stepped foot in the door!

Dan "spent my time amusing myself with Swatch mechanical movements while in Geneva" Ravenna

;-)


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## Rdenney

D N Ravenna said:


> They are rather darn snippy at those Geneva boutiques. I think the bouncer at the Omega one was going to throw me out for looking through the window before I even stepped foot in the door!
> 
> Dan "spent my time amusing myself with Swatch mechanical movements while in Geneva" Ravenna
> 
> ;-)


She wasn't snippy at all, but she adopted the usual Swiss strategy of purposely misunderstanding the questions so as to deflect them. I didn't push. Plus, we were buying a watch from her, and she stayed a half hour late to complete the sale.

In fact, all the boutiques we visited were exceptionally pleasant, and I looked in all the windows before ringing the bell. But we were there on a Thursday and it was slow. We also dressed well--I was recalling your story of being given the once-over because of your travel clothes.

Now, pardon me while I go extinguish the flames emanating from my credit card.

Rick "the sales manager at a good store in Interlaken had not heard of the Sellita connection, but was much more free with her opinion of it" Denney


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## WTSP

D N Ravenna said:


> Dan "spent my time amusing myself with Swatch mechanical movements while in Geneva" Ravenna


Is this a reference to the Swatch System 51? That's definitely on my list of things to look out for. I hear they're still only available in Switzerland. Hopefully they're more attractive in person, although the all black version looks decent. It's great to see a mechanical watch that sparks one's interest without the repercussion of spontaneous combustion in one's bank statements...



Rdenney said:


> Now, pardon me while I go extinguish the flames emanating from my credit card.


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## Rdenney

WTSP said:


> Is this a reference to the Swatch System 51? That's definitely on my list of things to look out for. I hear they're still only available in Switzerland. Hopefully they're more attractive in person, although the all black version looks decent. It's great to see a mechanical watch that sparks one's interest without the repercussion of spontaneous combustion in one's bank statements...


Indeed. See me review here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/swatch-sistem-51-sistem-blue-one-first-u-s-pics-1021599.html

Rick "who doesn't mind cheap-looking watches if they are inexpensive" Denney


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## D N Ravenna

That would be it. In the final analysis, I was too cheap and felt emboldened to be so by the Swiss. My wife and I had a rum & diet coke each at the hotel and were charged somewhere in the neighborhood of 15USD for each drink. The next day, no one would offer a discount on a Swiss Army knife. Ditto for the watch. 
So I waited until I was in the states and got the Swiss Army knife I liked for ~40% of list while drinking a 4.50USD rum & diet coke. I did not get an inexpensive Swatch to go with my Seiko 5s and Chinese "ETA" movement watches though!

Dan


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## D N Ravenna

Rdenney said:


> ...In fact, all the boutiques we visited were exceptionally pleasant, and I looked in all the windows before ringing the bell. But we were there on a Thursday and it was slow. We also dressed well--I was recalling your story of being given the once-over because of your travel clothes...


I looked worse when I purchased my JLC Reverso Duo in the states. I won't dress better for the Swiss.

Dan "Get off my lawn" Ravenna

;-)


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## Feller87

Wow interesting thread here

I fully agree that the Elite should have been the choice movement for the LVMH group, this would stabilize Zenith as the original 'movement maker' of the group and lend credence to the other case and branding companies who would use the movement (bvlgari,Tag).

It is extremely difficult to gauge the potential fallout with the industry from outsourcing movements, however being being that new IHC based companies like Nomos are receiving such positive reviews due to their own movement production I would have to say this isn't such a smart move by Zenith/LVMH.

I am not anti ETA/Sellita mass produced movements provided that the watch company who purchases them does enough modification to make it their "own" for example Ullyses Nardin GMT big date dual time of which I am a proud owner I found this small description on WIS to explain what I am saying.

It seems in recent years the traditional role of a watch company as an etablisseur using an excellent ebauche from a movement maker is looked down upon and at this price point using an exclusive in-house caliber is deemed as a superior quality approach. This is a valid and traditional Swiss manufacturing supply chain. I would encourage you to see past the marketing of exclusivity and the down-market brand equity perception of using a ubiquitous ETA base caliber and look at how it has been finished and what has been done by the watchmaker to address the problem at hand: easily resetting to time to where you are at or are going and knowing what time it is at home. This was accomplished by integrating an exclusive/ingenious/unique set of mechanical complications designed by UN. Solving this problem has been attempted in a number of ways by different makers over the years. With this design goal in mind, in my opinion; this watch truly stands above its peers (functionally).

Keeping this in mind I hope Zenith spends time and money ensuring that the fit, finish and decoration of the Sellita movements they will use are clearly separated from the other companies that simply buy these standard mp movements and plunk them in a case.

cheers


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## nickma

I come back time and again to the core values of Zenith. One sticks out above the others, for someone as OCD as me. Timekeeping.

Call me old fashioned but that seems to be the core purpose of a watch - accurate timekeeping.

My Pilot Big Date keeps to within about 5 seconds per 7 day week. My Chronomaster Moon to within 15 secs/ week. I've not come across another accessible brand that in my personal experience delivers that kind of accuracy from a manual movement, the more impressive given these watches are not simple 3 hand affairs. 

Can I expect that from a Sellita movement? If so, I am sold, and very happy with the movement proposition. If not, I'm not interested.


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## Rdenney

I have to say that my Zenith is not my most accurate watch, when measured as seconds per week. I have a couple of watches with chronometer-grade ETA 2892 movements that are more accurate, and one of those shows positional variation better than the Zenith, too. It seems clear to me that a 2892 (and likely it's Selitta SW300 clone) can be fairly easily made to run very accurately indeed. 

Those two watches that are more accurate than my Zenith are a Cartier Santos, which retails for about the same as did my Captain Chronograph, and my Ebel 1911 Chronometer, which retailed for about the same as did an Elite-powered Zenith of the same age. It would seem that the 2892 isn't really a lower-line movement than the Elite in chronometer trim, at least when compared with watches of equal overall price and finishing. And Selitta used to provide finishing services to ETA, so we know they can work to high quality when necessary. 

But we shall see what happens under new leadership. 

Rick "thinking more of Biver after the recent Hodinkee video interview" Denney


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## HJR

Rdenney said:


> I have to say that my Zenith is not my most accurate watch, when measured as seconds per week. I have a couple of watches with chronometer-grade ETA 2892 movements that are more accurate, and one of those shows positional variation better than the Zenith, too. It seems clear to me that a 2892 (and likely it's Selitta SW300 clone) can be fairly easily made to run very accurately indeed.
> 
> Those two watches that are more accurate than my Zenith are a Cartier Santos, which retails for about the same as did my Captain Chronograph, and my Ebel 1911 Chronometer, which retailed for about the same as did an Elite-powered Zenith of the same age. It would seem that the 2892 isn't really a lower-line movement than the Elite in chronometer trim, at least when compared with watches of equal overall price and finishing. And Selitta used to provide finishing services to ETA, so we know they can work to high quality when necessary.
> 
> But we shall see what happens under new leadership.
> 
> Rick "thinking more of Biver after the recent Hodinkee video interview" Denney


I would agree that ETA and Sellita make movements that are very high quality. But I would disagree that the 2892 and SW300 are equivalent of the Elite and other high end three hand movements. As most designers/engineers would say, that while the improvements at the end of the design process become smaller and therefore more difficult to readily observe, they are there. The improvement a movement like the Elite would have is the engineering involved in designing an elegant, realiable, accurate and thin movement. This quote regarding thickness come from a post Hartmut made a few years ago:



Hartmut Richter said:


> The thinnest automatic movement ever is the Lassale Calibre 2000 at 2.08mm. However, this was apparently fraught with problems and it is said (in the German watch literature) that the new Piaget calibre, at 2.35mm, is the thinnest "reliable" movement. Another thin calibre is the Patek Philippe cal. 240 with 2.4mm thickness. Both are microrotor movements. The thinnest central rotor movement I can think of offhand was the Longines 990. This did have some stability problems as well and it was only unidirectional winding. The Girard Perregaux 3xxx family is 2.98mm thick and unidirectionally winding whereas the Zenith "Elite" is 3.28mm and is bidirectionally winding. On the whole, the Zenith "Elite" is therefore still one of the slimmest (perhaps even *the *slimmest) movements of its type.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


While the Elite's improvements are not huge compared to the 3.6mm of the 2892/SW300, that still is a 10% difference. And if Zenith still plans on making an Ultra Thin line to compete with say Girard Perreguax that 3.6mm is now over 20% thicker. So people's comments that Zenith appears to have decided to chase a lower end (not low end) of the market is likely true at least for their three-hand watches. The El Primero will have to anchor the higher end on its own.


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## Rdenney

Yes, the Elite is a bit flatter than the 2892, but I have yet to see the Zenith watch, even the Ultra-Thin, that takes advantage of that flatness such that it is thinner than what is possible with the 2892. 

I own a watch with a Lemania 8810 (Longines 990), and it is so much thinner that it robs the Elite of being special, given its 2.96mm with full rotor, central seconds, and date. Unstable? Not in my experience. But that Ebel watch is still in the same 9mm 1911 case used later for a GP3300 and still later for a 2892. 

Zenith is no longer even listing the Captain Ultra-Thin in a gents model that I can find, but the Heritage UT was still 8.something mm thick in the auto version, as I recall. I see no issue putting an SW300 in that case. The Elite is thin, but not thin enough to trade on that thinness as a special feature, especially now that the 990 is back in circulation with the absorption of Lemania into Swatch a dozen years ago. 

By the way, put the seconds in a subdial, and the 2892/SW300 could be that 10% thinner, too.

Don't get me wrong--I think it's a great movement and I love my wife's Star Elite. (I could wish for a 37mm gents version of that watch.) But awards notwithstanding, it hasn't excelled enough in any one area to distinguish itself in the market. Perhaps that's because Zenith hadn't packaged or marketed it properly, but there we are. 

And it seems as though it must be costly to produce. Zenith has been equipping many of its cheaper three-hand watches with old Martel 2562 and 2572 movements in the last few years. Those are decent movements, of course, but now rather dated. 

Rick "thinking a thinner watch would sell the Elite better" Denney


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## ed21x

It appears that the true successor to the Elite movement is the Espada, not the SW300, which will be an altogether new line of lower end Zenith watches. Or at least, that is what the price structure reflects. Keep in mind that, this is more than capable as an 'all purpose' movement seeing as how it is still thinner than the Rolex 3135 while still claiming the 36000bph.

The Elite, while in-house, had very little product differentiation with other movements on the market, so the value proposition was simply more difficult to justify.


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## HJR

Rdenney said:


> Yes, the Elite is a bit flatter than the 2892, but I have yet to see the Zenith watch, even the Ultra-Thin, that takes advantage of that flatness such that it is thinner than what is possible with the 2892.
> 
> I own a watch with a Lemania 8810 (Longines 990), and it is so much thinner that it robs the Elite of being special, given its 2.96mm with full rotor, central seconds, and date. Unstable? Not in my experience. But that Ebel watch is still in the same 9mm 1911 case used later for a GP3300 and still later for a 2892.
> 
> Zenith is no longer even listing the Captain Ultra-Thin in a gents model that I can find, but the Heritage UT was still 8.something mm thick in the auto version, as I recall. I see no issue putting an SW300 in that case. The Elite is thin, but not thin enough to trade on that thinness as a special feature, especially now that the 990 is back in circulation with the absorption of Lemania into Swatch a dozen years ago.
> 
> By the way, put the seconds in a subdial, and the 2892/SW300 could be that 10% thinner, too.
> 
> Don't get me wrong--I think it's a great movement and I love my wife's Star Elite. (I could wish for a 37mm gents version of that watch.) But awards notwithstanding, it hasn't excelled enough in any one area to distinguish itself in the market. Perhaps that's because Zenith hadn't packaged or marketed it properly, but there we are.
> 
> And it seems as though it must be costly to produce. Zenith has been equipping many of its cheaper three-hand watches with old Martel 2562 and 2572 movements in the last few years. Those are decent movements, of course, but now rather dated.
> 
> Rick "thinking a thinner watch would sell the Elite better" Denney


Rick, you make great points, but my Class Elite with date is at 7.6 which compares well with the higher end competition like JLC, GP, Piaget and others. But the Captain and Heritage UT have crept up to 8.1mm and 8.5mm (according to Jomashop) respectively while housing the Elite movement. Switch to the SW300 and now Zenith's Ultra Thin model which was at the thicker end of the "ultra thin" market is now at 9mm. Not much of an Ultra thin anymore. Still nice dress watches, which will sell on those looks, but nothing unique either. Either way Zenith knows their business and clients well and maybe for most it won't matter, but I for one admire Zenith for being able to mix it up with the higher end companies with their own movements and unique watches, but at a lower pricepoint without sacrificing quality. Sorry to say it, but there is a difference between an in-house movement and a sourced one. My hope is that Zenith uses the Elite like JLC uses the 849, a specialty movement that they brush off from time to time, further refine and improve and do special editions. While the Elite is not as unique as the 849, it also wouldn't require the same premium that JLC charges for 849 models. Not all special editions need to cost $20k.


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## Hartmut Richter

The Elite is pretty well unique in one particular way: it is a _lepine _movement. These days, all modern "three hands automatics plus date" movements have a directly driven central seconds but even the Elite Cal. 670 versions don't have this - the next gear after the escapement wheel is still at 9:00 (opposite the crown). One might say that this is just an optical quirk and not really important, or even a hindrance (one would want the small seconds at 6:00 except on chronographs). But there it is! Now, if only one could capitalize on that?!

There are (completely unconfirmed!) rumours that the Elite was originally designed to be the main Zenith movement. Very slim to be able to support complications and a lepine movement to be the basis of a modular chronograph to replace the El Primero. When the El Primero became such a success in the late eighties, this plan was dropped. And most of us are glad that it came about that way. Anyway, I have no supporting evidence for all this. However, one does wish that the 9:00 small seconds would be utilized better in terms of design. For example, it lends itself to some other feature in a subdial at 3:00. E.g. the power reserve. A pity that the Cal. 685 has this at around 1:00 - mark that as an opportunity lost. Or perhaps a date by subdial and hand at 3:00? Never appeared. A 24 hour indication? Ditto.

One might argue that all this can easily be done with a small seconds at 6:00, in which case you put the opposing subdial at 12:00. Some makers do this. But it does spoil the optics a little since it takes up the space normally reserved for the logo.

It was just a thought.....

Hartmut Richter


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## HJR

ed21x said:


> It appears that the true successor to the Elite movement is the Espada, not the SW300, which will be an altogether new line of lower end Zenith watches.


I found online the thickness of the Espada movement to be 5.58mm. That somewhat explains that the watches are 11.7mm, which I feel is too thick for a true dress watch. Very Omega Aqua Terra sized. Though there is some design thickness there. Either way though that is very thick for a three hand date movement.


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## HJR

Hartmut Richter said:


> The Elite is pretty well unique in one particular way: it is a _lepine _movement...
> 
> It was just a thought.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thanks Hartmut, great learning lesson with that small comment. Just spent an hour researching the _lepine _movement and its 250 year history! I love WUS for this particular reason.


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## Rdenney

Hartmut Richter said:


> The Elite is pretty well unique in one particular way: it is a _lepine _movement. These days, all modern "three hands automatics plus date" movements have a directly driven central seconds but even the Elite Cal. 670 versions don't have this - the next gear after the escapement wheel is still at 9:00 (opposite the crown). One might say that this is just an optical quirk and not really important, or even a hindrance (one would want the small seconds at 6:00 except on chronographs). But there it is! Now, if only one could capitalize on that?!
> 
> There are (completely unconfirmed!) rumours that the Elite was originally designed to be the main Zenith movement. Very slim to be able to support complications and a lepine movement to be the basis of a modular chronograph to replace the El Primero. When the El Primero became such a success in the late eighties, this plan was dropped. And most of us are glad that it came about that way. Anyway, I have no supporting evidence for all this. However, one does wish that the 9:00 small seconds would be utilized better in terms of design. For example, it lends itself to some other feature in a subdial at 3:00. E.g. the power reserve. A pity that the Cal. 685 has this at around 1:00 - mark that as an opportunity lost. Or perhaps a date by subdial and hand at 3:00? Never appeared. A 24 hour indication? Ditto.
> 
> One might argue that all this can easily be done with a small seconds at 6:00, in which case you put the opposing subdial at 12:00. Some makers do this. But it does spoil the optics a little since it takes up the space normally reserved for the logo.
> 
> It was just a thought.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Hartmut, I agree, the subdial at 9:00 strikes a bit of a jarring note in some implementations.

But then I look at my wife's Star Elite...










...and the dial here looks just fine with the Lepine arrangement. This watch has no date, but the large onion crown is a feature all its own. If they made this watch in a 38mm case, without the diamonds but otherwise identical, I'd be in the market.

I notice that the Ebel implementation of the GP 3300 (the Ebel caliber 330 found in some 90's 1911 Senior models) also puts the seconds subdial at 9.









(fromo another WUS post)

Ebel's subdial is pretty minimalist compared to the more traditional approach taken by Zenith.

GP's current 3300 watches have the subdial at 6, but they have watches with a subdial at 9 using the 3000 movement.

So, I agree that Zenith has managed to make the Lepine subdial just not look right in many of their watches, which may not have helped Elite sales.

Rick "noting that Zenith's exterior design has sometimes not lived up to their movements, like many other companies" Denney


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## D N Ravenna

It's all in the flow of design that we either like or do not like. I was quite comfortable with the seconds sub-dial on the six, but now have several watches that have it on the nine. To be honest, it does not make a difference to me if the entire design flows. Sort of like my Sinn EZM1. I've had people tell me they could not stand having a watch without a seconds hand. I look at my EZM1 and say, so? It looks pretty slick to me.

Dan (I am not sure what this has to do with the Sellita movement, but am game to discuss it)

;-)


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## applebook

Whether or not this Sellita decision will be lucrative for Zenith will depend on marketing and luck. 

I'm not that concerned since I wasn't compelled to purchase an Elite Zenith anyway. If this move brings in more Zenith customers, then it could be a good thing for Zenith loyalists in the long run, with greater innovation in the middle and at the top. 

It's sort of interesting that non-Swatch brands are being forced to move completely in-house, while an LVMH manufacturer like Zenith, which already has in-house movements, is shifting towards the IWC strategy of generic and cheaper for its entry-level models.


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## eddiea

Fantasio said:


> You are absolutely right, in the interview Dufour says (at 08:55) that abandoning Elite was a matter of production capacity. Zenith can now make annually 50.000 movements and they are not willing to go further. So Zenith had to sacrifice their own inhouse three hand movement in order to be able to supply other LVMH brands with El Primeros.


Dunno about that, watching Recon for weeks now, noticed some small time dealers having a hard time selling the "Zenith 3000" (modified Sellitas) on the Pilot Extra Special...
Personally? I will not buy a Zenith fitted with a massaged Sellitas at their asking price, to me it makes not sense to drop the Elite and hope a reworked Sellitas will yield the same value.....


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## eddiea

Fantasio said:


> You are absolutely right, in the interview Dufour says (at 08:55) that abandoning Elite was a matter of production capacity. Zenith can now make annually 50.000 movements and they are not willing to go further. So Zenith had to sacrifice their own inhouse three hand movement in order to be able to supply other LVMH brands with El Primeros.


Dunno about that, watching Recon for weeks now, noticed some small time deales having a hard time selling the "Zenith 3000" (modified Sellitas) on the Pilot Extra Special...
Personally? I will not buy a Zenith fitted with a massaged Sellitas at their asking price, to me it makes not sense to drop the Elite and hope a reworked Sellitas will yield the same value.....


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