# Yet another winder/overwinding question - complex



## musketeerracing

Hi guys - new here, but really struggling with the winder and overwinding questions. How can I get an authoritative answer?

So, on the surface, the manufacturers and retailers of winders have a vast array of reasons you need a certain winder to wind enough but not overwind. Fair enough, they're trying to distinguish themselves.

On the other hand, we all know that typical modern circular-pendulum automatics have a slip function to prevent overwinding, even if you were a marathon runner 24/7.

My more focused question are these: 

(a) do we really know whether it's better to keep watches fully wound, or let them run out a bit?

(b) are there non-modern automatics that can be overwound on a winder?

Here's my situation: I bought a cheap ($150) four-rotor, eight watch winder on ebay. The damn thing is actually not bad, even pretty quiet, although I suspect it winds far more than necessary. Goes a couple minutes one direction, switches direction for a couple of minutes, and then seems to rest for an hour or so. Also has 12 additional spots for my manuals and quartz, which by putting my collection all in one place has sort of gotten me back into collecting (oh boy...)

My collection isn't fancy, but it varies a lot: there's an 80's Rolex, a modern Tag Heuer, a couple of 20 year-old Tag Heuers, and a very early mid-century Omega auto with a "pogo" (don't know the word, but you know what I mean) auto oscillator.

I'm looking at adding a Seiko 5, a Seiko Bellmatic, and a Longines Master Collection Moonphase (a complication, and the real reason I got the winder) to fill up the eight winder slots.

So my question is: Presuming it's OK to keep watches fully wound, is it really OK to put these all on the winder and just let it go crazy? Is there anything about the 50 year-old Omega, the early Japanese automatics, or (presumably not) the newer Longines complication (it's just a Valjoux 7550 underneath I think) that should make me worry?

Sorry to add yet another post on winders but I can't find a thread that answers (a) whether no autos can be overwound on a winder and (b) whether staying fully wound is OK, or good.

Thanks!

ACP


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## musketeerracing

Really? No one has a comment or answer?

ACP


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## EHV

I think there are a few answers and they will all be different given the person responding. 
There is a lot of info here, check by the search function. You'll get lots of reading!

In a nutshell, most feel that one doesn't need a winder unless it's for the convenience of keeping a complicated watch going so it doesn't have to be reset. Ultimately, automatic watches don't keep perfect time so a watch WILL need to be reset to some degree unless you can tolerate a few minutes off a month or similar.

Some feel that the winder keeps the lubricants flowing and keeps the watch "healthy". Most feel that it adds extra wear to a movement that can sit unused just fine until it's time to wear the watch. Some feel it protects screw down crown from overuse but again, you'll still need to reset once in a while. Others feel that continually hand winding an automatic is not good for the system and yet others have been fine winding an automatic by hand for years and years.

A good winder will have a setting for daily revolutions so you will NOT be overwinding anyway. Buying cheap junk usually ends up with a winder that will wind more revolutions than whats needed in 24 hours to keep the watch going and even though an automatic watch cannot be overwound and some don't like this aspect.

If you're gonna go the winder route, buy something programmable that will not give you too many revolutions for any partcular watch. A winder will keep a watch in the state of wind that is present when you put the watch on the winder, it will not wind it from a stop nor should it overwind the watch if it's programmable.

As far a vintage watches on a winder, I don't have specific knowledge of those movements but why should they be any different than modern movements if they are in good condition and have been properly serviced. You'll just need to know the specifics about the movement rotations needed to keep them going daily on the winder.

Ultimately, a winder is a convenience to some and not a necessity. IMO, a good one used properly is not going to do damage. A bad one may.
A winder can be a good tool to sort out a new watch and make sure it's functioning properly and it can keep a complicated watch from having to be reset continually.

Lastly, here is the Orbita database that shows the number of revolutions per day that specific movement require to maintain a state of wind:

Orbita - Watch Database

Most importantly, welcome to WUS!


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## cameronweiss

This is a question that is often asked. First, one must understand what happens when the mainspring is fully wound on an automatic watch. This will help you to understand why over winding should be avoided. Automatic watches have what is called an unbreakable mainspring. This means that the mainspring will fully wind inside the barrel and then will "slip" inside the barrel to prevent over winding and breaking the mainspring (the spring is NOT unbreakable, but the design is meant to avoid breakage). The barrel, which houses the mainspring, has breaking grease on the interior walls of the barrel. The breaking grease allows the mainsprings end to slip inside and slowly rub against the barrel wall in order to release over winding tension. 

The barrel is typically constructed of brass and sometimes nickel plated. The mainspring in a vintage watch is made of hardened and tempered steel (much harder than brass). So if a vintage watch sits on a winder that never stops, the barrel walls will eventually be damaged by the steel spring scraping along the inside wall of the barrel. Over winding every once in a while is not going to harm the watch, but you could imagine that over winding all of the time for many years will cause damage to the barrel of the watch. This is why a winder should turn on for a little while and then shut off for a while.

Newer automatic watches have the same unbreakable mainspring and slipping system as older watches, but they use a different material for the mainspring. The mainspring is not hardened and tempered steel like the older springs. The newer springs are often referred to as white alloy or Nivaflex springs. These newer springs are coated with a Teflon like coating that minimizes friction. However prolonged over winding will still cause unnecessary wear on the barrel walls.

So that is what happens when an automatic watch over winds. It is important to also realize that a watch will over wind while being worn, but it will not usually over wind over and over again like it will on a winder that never stops rotating.

I hope this helps to answer people questions about over winding. Feel free to ask questions if I was unclear or if there is anything else you would like to know.


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