# Seiko Twin Quartz



## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

Hello,

I have recently bought this one on ebay:










It is a Seiko SQ Twin Quartz, with 9723A quartz movement (given for +/- 20s per year accuracy).

Watch is running; it is now at my watchmaker to have crystal, battery and gaskets replaced, and to have the crown repaired (impossible to reach the second "click" where you can set hands time, though setting day and date is possible!).

After that, it will go for a gold replating of case and bracelet (it is possible to have gold locally electrodeposited, without the need to disassemble the watch).

Watch has been manufactured in 1979, according to its serial number.

I didn't take pictures of the movement, but it has a "temperature adjusted" marking, unlike the one mentioned in this post: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1707846

The bracelet seems to be a very good quality one, with solid links, and the use of screws, not pins, to attach links. It is stainless steel brushed, with gold plating only on the top.

More pictures to come in some weeks, when watch will be as nice as new!

Best Regards,

MIkeNovember


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Keep us 'in the picture'


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## phatpete68 (Apr 14, 2008)

Great watch....pls post more pictures on this watch...meanwhile here r pictures on my 2 twin quartz watches....Grand Quartz (cal. 9256a +-10sec/yr) and Seiko Quartz (cal. 9641 +-20sec/yr)..enjoy


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

Nice watches, Pete. For the moment mine is not in a good cosmetic state, I will post more pictures after restoration!

MikeNovember


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## kiwidj (Sep 24, 2007)

Congratulations! :-!


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## kiwidj (Sep 24, 2007)

Congratulations! :-! Nice catch!


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## junlon (Dec 30, 2007)

How much did you pay for it?


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

junlon said:


> How much did you pay for it?


Hello,

I paid less than 30 EUR for watch and shipping; 30 EUR may appear cheap, but there is lot of work to be done before watch is in a collectible condition! ;-)

With restoration (watchmaker: fix the crown problem, new crystal, battery, o-rings; then selective goldplating of case, bracelet and crown) I expect watch to cost less than 200 EUR.

I think this will be a good price for an SQ Twin Quartz!

However, I think it is probably the maximum price to put in a vintage quartz, since movement is not repairable (even not adjustable: I don't know any watchmaker in France to have the necessary Quartz tester and thermostatic chamber to adjust a Twin Quartz!), and, at the 1st failure, watch will have lost almost all its value!:think:

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

MikeNovember said:


> ...I don't know any watchmaker in France to have the necessary Quartz tester and thermostatic chamber to adjust a Twin Quartz!...


1. Every watchmaker should have proper quartz tester/analyzer as it is an essential tool of quartz watch service.
2. Thermostatic chamber???:roll: What is that and why would it be needed?


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

ppaulusz said:


> 1. Every watchmaker should have proper quartz tester/analyzer as it is an essential tool of quartz watch service.
> 2. Thermostatic chamber???:roll: What is that and why would it be needed?


Hello,

Watchmakers had invested in quartz testers at the beginning of quartz era, when they were adjustable.

Then quality of "common" quartz has degraded, and not adjustable ones are today the most part of sales; watchmakers don't have quartz testers any longer, they just replace the movement by another one or send the watch to the manufacturer. And twin quartz are no longer maintained by Seiko.:-(

Concerning thermostatic chambers, the "temperature adjusted" written on twin quartz really mean that they should be adjusted at a given temperature: if you read the instruction manual of 9923A, you see that both quartz should be adjusted at 24°C, which is the temperature where they have the same output. So, you need a chamber with constant 24°C temperature inside.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

I see, you're pulling my leg: 1st of April!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

ppaulusz said:


> I see, you're pulling my leg: 1st of April!


well, it does actually make a difference at which temperature you adjust a quartz watch to a zero error rate. ETA gives a range (20-30C I think). But I suspect taking this to two significant digits is pushing the limits of usefulness.


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

ppaulusz said:


> I see, you're pulling my leg: 1st of April!


Hello,

Not pulling your leg!

Twin Quartz 9923 instruction manual can be downloaded here:
http://www.seikodigitalwatches.com/9XXX/9923A.pdf

You can find this figure, which explains the principle of temperature compensation used by Twin Quartz:



You can see that the frequency / temperature curves of both quartz, master and auxiliary, are crossing.

Then, later on the document, you can read:




The note that follows the * shows that the crossing point is at 24°C: it is the temperature where you must check accuracy and adjust the trimmers.

And, since the slope of the auxiliary curve is high (and negative) at the crossing point, output of auxiliary quartz will vary strongly for a small temperature variation; lots of precautions should be taken, including well regulated thermostatic chamber, and the need to do several measurements and take their average.

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Are you going to show me the Twin Quartz Service Manual that I shared with the forum in May last year?:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=151004

Come on, I read and understood the Manual! Your understanding of the whole issue however is not very clear. Do your "homework" (I did too!) and you will understand that there is no need for "thermostatic chamber" and all watchmaker should have (and trust me: they do have) proper quartz tester to carry out their job (it involves more than just calibration). It's really simple: you don't understand it (yet) therefore got the wrong conclusion.
By the way, congratulations to your Seiko!:-! I'm sure that you'll appreciate even more its technology when you will discover more about thermocompensation technologies and high-accuracy watches in general. You are in the right place, in the right forum. There is plenty to read... Enjoy it!

Regards,
ppaulusz(George)


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Eeeb said:


> well, it does actually make a difference at which temperature you adjust a quartz watch to a zero error rate. ETA gives a range (20-30C I think). But I suspect taking this to two significant digits is pushing the limits of usefulness.


So, Jim, you do agree that there is no need for "thermostatic chamber"... I hope you do, anyway. Also what would you think of the temperature of the watchmaker's workshop? Would it be around twenty something Celsius regardless of outside temperature? I'd think so as I've never been in a watch workshop where it was "freezing" or "boiling" temperature. Always "normal" temperature: twenty something Celsius - without "thermostatic chamber".


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

Eeeb said:


> well, it does actually make a difference at which temperature you adjust a quartz watch to a zero error rate. ETA gives a range (20-30C I think). But I suspect taking this to two significant digits is pushing the limits of usefulness.


Well, my feeling is that there might be enough errors from other places so pushing that to more than 1-2 degrees might very likely be overkill; also I believe getting a metal-cased watch to within 1-2 degrees of 24C should not be such a huge feat of engineering (except for maybe a repair shop in Siberia) so in the end things should not be THAT hard b-)


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

ppaulusz said:


> Are you going to show me the Twin Quartz Service Manual that I shared with the forum in May last year?:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=151004
> 
> Come on, I read and understood the Manual! Your understanding of the whole issue however is not very clear. Do your "homework" (I did too!) and you will understand that there is no need for "thermostatic chamber" and all watchmaker should have (and trust me: they do have) proper quartz tester to carry out their job (it involves more than just calibration). It's really simple: you don't understand it (yet) therefore got the wrong conclusion.
> ...


Hello George,

Glad you know 9923 manual! More than doing my homework, I think I have "some background" in measurement (I am a 30 years of experience engineer) and I do believe thermal chamber is necessary to reach a good setting of a Twin Quartz: the principle of compensation shows that relative position of curves is a major point to have the compensation work. And the manual says that output should match at 24°C.

Adjusting the quartzes at 20°C could probably arrive to have a precise watch at 20°C, but not a flat overall temperature answer, since the crossing point would not match Seiko's specification (curves would not be in the good relative position).

Of course, you can think differently! But your answer is a bit "too easy": instead of explaining your opinion and showing where I am wrong you just say "do your homework"... A bit condescendant, and not very useful an answer.

Concerning France, watchmakers had quartz testers in the 70's. But soon, trimmable quartz watches disappeared from the market. Today, Citizen Exceed or The Citizen are not sold in France, and neither are Grand Seiko 8Fxx or 9Fxx. Practically, the only temperature compensated quartz watches that you can buy in France are Breitling ones: when you need service, you go to the AD who sends watch to the factory. So, watchmakers who invested, decades ago, in watch testers have generally discarded them.

I live in Nice, a half million inhabitants city in the South-East of France. There are 3 to 4 watchmakers able to do something else than replacing a battery in a quartz watch. I know them all; they don't have a quartz tester.

Moreover, for a specific watch you need toolings (e.g. adapter), instruction manual (on internet you can for sure find 9723 parts list, but not 9723 instruction manual; it is probable that 9923 is close but there might be differences).

And Twin Quartz have not been sold in France... And Seiko France was created only in 1983, after the end of manufacturing of Twin Quartz... So, no hope to send Twin Quartz for repair at Seiko France in Besançon.

That's why I say I cannot have the Twin Quartz adjusted in France!

Are they still maintained in USA? or in Japan by Seiko?

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## petew (Apr 6, 2006)

A couple of notes.

1.) There is a Seiko Boutique in Paris and they sell GS"s there. So it's quite possible that you could find a HEQ in France!

2.) Years ago, I saw a picture of an "environmental chamber" that Seiko used for watch maintenance. It looked like a vault in a bank. Perhaps this was in a sense a version of a Thermal Chamber?


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## BenL (Oct 1, 2008)

Nice one, looking forward to seeing more pics of it once you get it back.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Mike, I must be living in the _European_ _watchmaker capital_, _Budapest_.;-) So far I have visited 5 watchmaker workshops in my city and all of them had digital quartz analyzers. 3 of them had Swiss-made _Witschi Q-tester 6000_, one had a _SEIKO QT-99_ and one had a _Citizen CQT-101_. All of them could and would measure and calibrate your twin-quartz. Sure, there are many limited watch service providers around who do almost nothing else than battery replacement and bracelet adjustment however those ones should not be called watchmakers.
Not only _Breitling_ models but the _Omega Constellation Double Eagle Perpetual Calendar_ (current model) as well are fitted with thermocompensated _ETA_ movements with digital calibration terminals. Is there an _Omega AD_ in _France_? I'm sure there is.


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

petew said:


> A couple of notes.
> 
> 1.) There is a Seiko Boutique in Paris and they sell GS"s there. So it's quite possible that you could find a HEQ in France!
> 
> 2.) Years ago, I saw a picture of an "environmental chamber" that Seiko used for watch maintenance. It looked like a vault in a bank. Perhaps this was in a sense a version of a Thermal Chamber?


Hello Petew,

I have visited the Seiko Center in Paris. Under GS brand they sell some mechanical ones (for example the GMT's) and SpringDrives. They also sell some other Seiko high-end models such as the Marinemaster professional (automatic).

I have not seen there any HEQ watches.

They have very less choice than what can be found in Japan, and prices are much higher (even taking into account that we have 19,6% VAT in France!)

It is the only place in France where you can get mechanical GS watches, there are some other (3 or 4) shops who have been elected by Seiko to sell SpringDrive ("normal" Seiko AD has not the right to sell GS or SpringDrive in France).

Yes, environmental chamber maybe a thermal chamber. And it does give the impression of a vault, with thick insulating walls.

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

ppaulusz said:


> Mike, I must be living in the _European_ _watchmaker capital_, _Budapest_.;-) So far I have visited 5 watchmaker workshops in my city and all of them had digital quartz analyzers. 3 of them had Swiss-made _Witschi Q-tester 6000_, one had a _SEIKO QT-99_ and one had a _Citizen CQT-101_. All of them could and would measure and calibrate your twin-quartz. Sure, there are many limited watch service providers around who do almost nothing else than battery replacement and bracelet adjustment however those ones should not be called watchmakers.
> Not only _Breitling_ models but the _Omega Constellation Double Eagle Perpetual Calendar_ (current model) as well are fitted with thermocompensated _ETA_ movements with digital calibration terminals. Is there an _Omega AD_ in _France_? I'm sure there is.


Hello George,

Omega or Breitling AD (they are generally selling both!) are very often no more than sellers, selling watches and jewels; they send watches for repair or service to Omega or Breitling "repair centers", in France or in Switzerland. And these repair centers accept only the watches of the brand they represent.

Seiko has its own one in Besançon, able to service and repair usual Seiko models, not GS, nor mechanical (almost not sold in France), neither SpringDrive --> they send them to Japan.

Concerning watchmakers, the lack of quartz testers is just a question of market:
- if you have a high brand luxury quartz watch, you send it through AD to the brand repair center.
- if you have a "common" quartz watch (most are in the range of less than 250 EUR), when it fails you don't ask the watchmaker to repair it: whatever he does, he will charge at least 150 EUR! so, you buy a new watch...

Only collectors can spend money in the repair of quartz watches, or in the purchase of expensive ones: quartz watches are perceived as low quality ones, in France, probably under influence of Swiss marketing.

I dit it for the repair of a kinetic (in 2003 I had the movement changed in my 5M22 kinetic from 1992) and now for the restoration of this Twin Quartz. And I spent 1400 EUR in 2007 for the purchase of a quartz watch, (a Kinetic MarineMaster SBDW015 for 1400 EUR) I must be crazy!

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## martback (Feb 11, 2006)

*Quartz Tester*

Getting a Seiko QT 99 quartz tester would actually be very easy. I do not know if these things will deteriorate over time but I see one or two each month on the Japanese auctions that are said to be in working condition and they seldom sell for more than USD 50.

/ martin


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: Quartz Tester*



martback said:


> Getting a Seiko QT 99 quartz tester would actually be very easy. I do not know if these things will deteriorate over time but I see one or two each month on the Japanese auctions that are said to be in working condition and they seldom sell for more than USD 50.
> 
> / martin


Any idea how long a span of time they use to calculate the rate? Usually this is limited to a minute. I'm looking for something on the order of 8 min or longer so I can adjust Thermolines...


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Quartz Tester*



Eeeb said:


> ...I'm looking for something on the order of 8 min or longer so I can adjust Thermolines...


Sorry, Jim, in that case it has to be a Witschi quartz tester/analyzer for mega dollars...
However, with the thermocompensated ETA you don't really need anything if you know the rate of your watch as the adjustment is digital.


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

Hello,

Watch has come back from watchmaker; it has new gasket and battery, and crown problem has been fixed; watch is perfectly working. As promised, some pictures!
 









However, I have been disappointed that crystal could not be changed: it is no longer available (but I know where to have custom made crystals) and, moreover, it is fixed by the bezel, which seems to be blocked (probably glued). Depending on light it may not be noticed:










Some informations on watch:
Seiko SQ Twin Quartz
Case and bracelet: stainless steel, gold plated
Mineral glass crystal
Model: 9723-8000
Year of manufacturing: 1979
weight: 62 g
thickness: 8.5 mm
width: 36 mm
height: 52 mm
integrated bracelet (22/16 mm) with SQ logo:










Case back engravings:










Bracelet removable links can be removed very easily, thanks to their screw mounting:










Some macros of the dial:



















Days are bilingual, English / German. Their color is black except blue for Saturday and red for Sunday. They are easiliy set at the first click of the crown (turning clockwise or conterclockwise you change date or day). At the second click you can set time (seconds hand stops moving: so you go to second click when it is at 12, it is further very easy to synchronise watch with reference clock).

Note that dial color is closer to gold than on the macros. Here is the traditional wristshot, with flash light, which shows the scratches of the crystal reflecting on the dial:










I didn't think to take pictures of the movement the 1st time I opened the watch. And I will not open it again: there are 95% of chances to damage the very thin o'ring when closing the case!

However movement resembles this one:










The only visible difference is that mine does have an "adjusted to temperature" marking.

I could find some informations about the movement.

Several twin quartz manuals can be found there: http://www.seikodigitalwatches.com/seikomanual10.htm

But 9723A manual, http://www.seikodigitalwatches.com/9XXX/9723A.pdf is just the parts list; however, when reading the 9726A manual, http://www.seikodigitalwatches.com/9XXX/9726A.pdf (which contains both parts list and instruction manual), I found that both 9723A and 9726A have the same circuit block; and a picture of this circuit block is attached in 9726A instruction manual:










The surprise is that, instead of two separate quartz crystals (as, for example, with 9923A), we have here a "crystal unit" which contains both quartz.

Instruction manual also tells that it is a 2 jewels movement, with both quartz running at the same frequency of 32768 Hz, a single common trimmer; and finally that time adjustment should be done at a temperature of 24 +/- 2°C, though Seiko doesn't speak of any thermal chamber.

I have, for the moment, stopped the restoration of the watch (my initial intent was to have the crystal changed, then to have bracelet and case gold plated by selective electrodeposition); I think that, whith a scratched and "ding'ed" crystal it is not worth to have the watch replated.

I am looking for ideas to have the crystal repaired (I exclude polishing: it doesn't work except with cerium oxyde and machine polishing, with the risk to damage the bezel and its "twin quartz" marking, since crystal is at the same level as bezel). Among the ideas:

- to fill the scratches and the ding with a liquid plastic, of the same diffraction index; I have read ads about "Lens Doctor CPR" which is supposed to do that on lenses.

- to buy a thin (0.8 mm) sapphire crystal, and to bond it on the top of the glass one, using an optical resin (with the hope that the resin will fill the scratches).

- to let it untouched ("wabi sabi" philosophical approach!) :roll: or to expect a miracle (to find a NOS compatible case + crystal).:-!

Do you guys have some experience about solutions 1 and 2? :thanks for any answer!

Best Regards,

MikeNovember


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## Bruce Reding (May 5, 2005)

Thanks for the informative post, Mike. As to the crystal, I'd go with wabi sabi.


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

Hello,

I have posted the same on SCWF, and a poster (rileynp) has answered with pictures of the same movement:










This macro show that "crystal unit" is no more than two single quartz, individually packaged, with the same cover:










Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

Bruce Reding said:


> Thanks for the informative post, Mike. As to the crystal, I'd go with wabi sabi.


Hello Bruce,

I finally decided for the "miracle" solution! ;-)

I have posted the same post about my Twin Quartz on Japanese dedicated watches forum SCWF.

And the miracle occurred!:-d One of the readers, Ron Canda, who holds a Seiko repair facility in USA, has proposed to sell me a salesman sample watch of the same kind:



















This is a sample watch of US equivalent model (9723-8009); it includes case, crystal, caseback (with "sample" marking), dial, hands, and some links of the bracelet (and, of course, no movement).

All being close to new, just gently handled by a salesman to show it to its customers!

Of course I ordered this sample watch to Ron Canda.

Now I am facing a terrible choice: will I use it to rebuilt my watch, or will I keep it as a collector (I think there have been less sample watches made than true Twin Quartz watches!)!:think:

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

MikeNovember said:


> Hello Bruce,
> 
> I finally decided for the "miracle" solution! ;-)
> ...
> ...


IMHO rebuilt it and wear it CAREFULLY - it might be the best-looking specimen left of its kind


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

MikeNovember said:


> Hello,
> 
> I have recently bought this one on ebay:
> 
> ...


Hello,

Here is the final result: the movement has been installed in the sample watch that I bought to Ron Canda, and I have now a near mint watch:










Macro of the dial:










And the final wristshot:










I just need now to find where to have my watch adjusted!

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## tony99508 (Mar 3, 2008)

great watch you got! am thinking of buying a Grand Quartz is close to new condition; how much are you guys willing to pay for a grand quartz?


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

tony99508 said:


> great watch you got! am thinking of buying a Grand Quartz is close to new condition; how much are you guys willing to pay for a grand quartz?


Hello,

Be careful, there are grand quartz which are twin quartz, and grand quartz which are not!

Here is a grand twin quartz:










And here is the "twin quartz" logo:










The price I would pay for? I would not pay much, even if the watch is a nice one: these watches can no longer be maintained or repaired, and at the 1st failure you lose your investment!

Total cost for my watch (initial purchase, sample watch + watchmaker) is about 220$.

And I think I would not go above 300$, for the reason I said.

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## tony99508 (Mar 3, 2008)

thanks mikenovember, for the advice, yes the one am looking at has the twin quartz logo on it, saying that the watch is in good working condition, what might be the most likely things to go wrong with them.??


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

MikeNovember said:


> ...Here is the final result: the movement has been installed in the sample watch...


Congratulations, it's the smart solution!|>


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## MikeNovember (Jun 11, 2008)

tony99508 said:


> thanks mikenovember, for the advice, yes the one am looking at has the twin quartz logo on it, saying that the watch is in good working condition, what might be the most likely things to go wrong with them.??


Hello Tony,

- Authenticity: there are some eBay sellers who are famous because they use to sell "Frankenwatches" assembled with parts coming from different models.

So, you should ask for a macro of the dial, a macro of the back, and a picture of the movement; and check that the reference of the movement printed on the dial matches the reference of the movement which is inside and the reference which is engraved on the caseback (for example, with my watch: "Japan *9723*-800L R" on the dial, *9723A* on the movement, *9723*-8000 on the back).

- You should check with the sellers that watch functions correctly (second hand ticks, it is possible to pull the crown on the 1st and 2nd click, it is possible to adjust hour / day / date).

- You should check that batteries still exist for this watch (an equivalent for the original battery is still available). This link should help you:
http://www.makedostudio.com/watches/seiko-batteries.pdf

- You should ask for macro pictures and a good written description of the cosmetic aspect of the watch, and be careful because pictures alone are not enough to have a precise idea: the following pictures are mine, for the same watch (my Twin Quartz before restoration)

showing scratches on the crystal:









not showing scratches on the crystal:









no touch up, 1st picture taken with flash, second one taken without!

Best regards,

MikeNovember


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## tony99508 (Mar 3, 2008)

is the seiko credor 8J81B *thermocompensated?*


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Nice! I am doing exactly the same thing with a Heuer chronograph... found a couple of salesman samples, one a 3000 quartz chrono. I needed that having only the 3000 chrono automatic... And I had a Dubois Depraz-based quartz chrono is a really beat up case (identical movement to the 3000). So I am having the movement swapped in. we'll see how it turns out. It is still at the watchmakers. If it turns out as nice as yours, I'll be a happy camper.


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