# El Primero Chronomaster 38mm Discontinued?



## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

Long time lurker, first time posting:

I am looking to add the EP Chronomaster 38 to the stable, but noticed that price is steadily climbing up (on the grey market). Went to try it on at an AD, was told that it was discontinued. Inquiries to other ADs and Zenith didn't yield a definitive answer: "temporarily unavailable", "unavailable for now", "don't know when we will start taking order for this again". Given that Zenith is actively touting the chronomaster sport (new release) as the next evolution, should I be worried or am I seeing things?


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## GreatLakesWatch (Aug 12, 2016)

I too was about to add this watch to my collection (I still prefer to call it the 1969 Original, but I know the dials are different) until the new Chrono Sport came out. I ended up ordering the white dial version. However, I have to believe that Zenith has a ton of 400 movements left laying around, so I find it hard to believe the 38mm Chronomaster is leaving the lineup. My AD has not mentioned anything about it either.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

GreatLakesWatch said:


> I too was about to add this watch to my collection (I still prefer to call it the 1969 Original, but I know the dials are different) until the new Chrono Sport came out. I ended up ordering the white dial version. However, I have to believe that Zenith has a ton of 400 movements left laying around, so I find it hard to believe the 38mm Chronomaster is leaving the lineup. My AD has not mentioned anything about it either.


I see, I think my AD might be mistaken then. But an alarmingly high number of ADs have this model as "out of stock", which made me worried. I am trying to decide between a few options, so really wanted to fact-check this. If it is indeed going away, I might have to just go with the EP now. Otherwise, trying to pick between this, the new Chronomat, Portugieser Chrono, or maybe even save up for the Speedy 321.

I really wanted to like the new Chrono Sport, but found some design choices too close to the Daytona. Also, I think some of the "charm" of the EP got lost in the new design. They did a great job with the design though, probably the first "contemporary" Zenith that got my attention. Would love to see some pics of your Chrono Sport when it arrives.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

Your best bet is this:









CHRONOMASTER Revival A386 Manufacture - 03.Z386.400/60.C843 - Zenith Watches


Zenith Chronomaster Revival Manufacture Edition in a 38mm steel case with a white and blue tri-color dial and blue alligator leather strap




www.zenith-watches.com





It's so close to the earlier edition that I can imagine they won't sell it until these are gone. This one looks really nice, so you might want to think on this instead.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

palletwheel said:


> Your best bet is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestion, but I prefer the "old-new" look of the revised original 1969.


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## Kev161 (Nov 19, 2018)




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## Nathan356 (Mar 20, 2016)

I heard this same rumor several months ago, it was posted to both Rolex and Omega Forums. Same input: ADs saying that it was discontinued. It looks like the gray and blue are definitely discontinued, but I still see the silver dial on the Zenith website so who knows. Zenith also, for awhile, had up a revised chronomaster 38mm design, showing the paddle-style second hand instead of the one with the star on it, as well as revised font on the subdials. Sort of a cross between the 50th anniversary reissue and the modernized Chronomaster. Then that was pulled down from the website, so maybe they are going to make a design update and it was prematurely shown...


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

So it seems it is indeed discontinued (confirmed by virtually every AD around the country, also I think it's no longer on Zenith's website). I managed to snatch one of the last ones on strap with a bundle order for a bracelet (shoutout to Nick from Timeless for a great transaction). For those interested (and also so my hours of phone calls don't go to waste): Carat & Co has one on a bracelet, Oster Jewelers have one on a bracelet, Manfredi has one on a bracelet. Several other ADs (Horologio in NV, Topper, Feldmar, Cellini has this and the blue one) have it on the strap. 

Other than that, any guess on what will Zenith come out with to replace it?


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## cheu_f50 (Oct 26, 2012)

RetiredKarlMarx said:


> So it seems it is indeed discontinued (confirmed by virtually every AD around the country, also I think it's no longer on Zenith's website). I managed to snatch one of the last ones on strap with a bundle order for a bracelet (shoutout to Nick from Timeless for a great transaction). For those interested (and also so my hours of phone calls don't go to waste): Carat & Co has one on a bracelet, Oster Jewelers have one on a bracelet, Manfredi has one on a bracelet. Several other ADs (Horologio in NV, Topper, Feldmar, Cellini has this and the blue one) have it on the strap.
> 
> Other than that, any guess on what will Zenith come out with to replace it?


this one? Not disputing it may be discontinued, but I am still able to find it on the website. A shame if its discontinued. I had the opportunity to buy it a couple of years ago while on travel for a pretty significantly discounted price. I opt for the First Omega In Space instead at the time. 38mm is the sweet spot for a watch size if you ask me. Hopefully something else is coming in its place once discontinued.






CHRONOMASTER El Primero - 38mm steel and leather strap - 03.2150.400/69.C713


Zenith El Primero Chronomaster in 42mm steel case and alligator strap, with silver dial and iconic different-coloured chronograph counters.




www.zenith-watches.com


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

cheu_f50 said:


> this one? Not disputing it may be discontinued, but I am still able to find it on the website. A shame if its discontinued. I had the opportunity to buy it a couple of years ago while on travel for a pretty significantly discounted price. I opt for the First Omega In Space instead at the time. 38mm is the sweet spot for a watch size if you ask me. Hopefully something else is coming in its place once discontinued.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, what I meant about the website is it's out of the "featured" section I guess


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

Hope they don't discontinue it, as it's one of the best looking models in the lineup. Granted it may boost the value of mine, if it's discontinued
That said, Zenith has one of the worst websites I've seen. It looks like it's designed by a teenage girl, with "the more animation and flash, the better"
Site is virtually unusable, damn popup videos and tabs everywhere make browsing impossible. And trying to find a watch by model line is awful as it's not intuitive or simple.
Technical specs spread out on multiple pages and tabs. Ridiculous

They should look at JLC for an example of what a watch site should look like.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

EnderW said:


> Hope they don't discontinue it, as it's one of the best looking models in the lineup. Granted it may boost the value of mine, if it's discontinued
> That said, Zenith has one of the worst websites I've seen. It looks like it's designed by a teenage girl, with "the more animation and flash, the better"
> Site is virtually unusable, damn popup videos and tabs everywhere make browsing impossible. And trying to find a watch by model line is awful as it's not intuitive or simple.
> Technical specs spread out on multiple pages and tabs. Ridiculous
> ...


Yeah, the website is a mess (I like to blame LVMH for this). The Chronomaster is discontinued though, from my conversations with multiple ADs. The replacement for it will come out sometime in the spring. From what I gathered, the new one will be more original than the "Original 1969" if that makes sense (think no star on Chrono second hand and ladder bracelet). I think it is likely that Zenith will eventually retire the EP 400, judging by what they did for EP 3600 (like uniform screw size, etc).


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

They may well retire the Cal. 400 (which is actually already the Cal. 400Z, even though that's not on the movements any more) - but then, the Cal. 3600 is, from what I've seen, not really a new movement but instead just a further development of the Cal. 400 (or more precisely: the Cal. 4047). If Zenith "downgraded" the Cal. 3600 from a 1/10th of a second chronograph to an "ordinary" chronograph, I don't think we'd notice much.

Hartmut Richter


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

Hartmut Richter said:


> They may well retire the Cal. 400 (which is actually already the Cal. 400Z, even though that's not on the movements any more) - but then, the Cal. 3600 is, from what I've seen, not really a new movement but instead just a further development of the Cal. 400 (or more precisely: the Cal. 4047). If Zenith "downgraded" the Cal. 3600 from a 1/10th of a second chronograph to an "ordinary" chronograph, I don't think we'd notice much.
> 
> Hartmut Richter





Hartmut Richter said:


> They may well retire the Cal. 400 (which is actually already the Cal. 400Z, even though that's not on the movements any more) - but then, the Cal. 3600 is, from what I've seen, not really a new movement but instead just a further development of the Cal. 400 (or more precisely: the Cal. 4047). If Zenith "downgraded" the Cal. 3600 from a 1/10th of a second chronograph to an "ordinary" chronograph, I don't think we'd notice much.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I am not sure how the current Cal.400 is different from the original, but I think cal. 3600 is a big update (I think several publications claim that 3600 is the El Primero "reworked from the ground up"). One of the big upgrades (or downgrades?) in the user experience is the addition of the hacking feature.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

RetiredKarlMarx said:


> I am not sure how the current Cal.400 is different from the original, but I think cal. 3600 is a big update (I think several publications claim that 3600 is the El Primero "reworked from the ground up"). One of the big upgrades (or downgrades?) in the user experience is the addition of the hacking feature.


The 400 became the 400Z, then at some point branched off to the 400B, and there are dozens and dozens of offshoots before and after. But they're all developments of the original movement from 1969.

I read somewhere that in turning the 400 into the 3600, They multiplied it by 9. (Joking.) In fact they reduced the 400's enormous parts count down from 300-something to about 270.

I don't think the 3600 will replace the 400 completely, as the trick 10-second lap of the seconds counter means that an additional seconds totaliser (at the 3 o'clock position) is needed. The other two subdials are taken up by running seconds and the minutes totaliser. I am sure Zenith will keep a chrono movement that counts up to 12 hours.

I would like to see, though, Zenith increasing the barrel of the 400 to 60 hours, and if possible adding a hacking function. Even the Speedmaster Pro has a hacking function these days!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

The ordinary Cal. 400 only has about 285 parts - the Cal. 410 (full calendar plus moonphase) has 365. So, considering that also the Cal. 3600 has a 1/10th of a second feature, the parts saving seems minimal. Adding a hacking feature seems like a further develoipment but I am not sure whether it would be possible to add one to the Cal. 400 (if so, this is also not a galactic improvement on the original movement either).

OK, so it is very likely that the Cal. 3600 is produced on different machinery and the parts are not interchangeable. But in essence - and especially when comparing it to other modern automatic chronographs - it is the same movement:


balance at 11:00
with column wheel for the chronograph
with horizontal clutch for the chronograph
transmission of automatic winding to mainspring via an extended gear at 1:00 (just past the balance cock)
automatic winding reduction system looks the same

...plus probably many more if I could see inside the movement. So, my verdict remains: the EP Cal. 3019 PHC (aka Cal. 40.0 aka Cal. 400) still lives on! 

Hartmut Richter


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

One-Seventy said:


> The 400 became the 400Z, then at some point branched off to the 400B, and there are dozens and dozens of offshoots before and after. But they're all developments of the original movement from 1969.
> 
> I read somewhere that in turning the 400 into the 3600, They multiplied it by 9. (Joking.) In fact they reduced the 400's enormous parts count down from 300-something to about 270.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think it makes sense for Zenith to keep a non-1/10 second Chrono. What I meant when I mentioned Cal.3600 is not that it will directly replace cal.400, but the approach (uniform screw size, hacking seconds, etc) makes me think they might update cal.400 to something that has a greater degree of parts interchangeability with cal.3600. After spending a few days with my EP, I don't know how I feel about the non-hacking movement. While it certainly adds character to the movement (I like to think that the 36k beats make it "unstoppable", hence non-hacking), it is annoyingly hard to set the time against the reference.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

Hartmut Richter said:


> The ordinary Cal. 400 only has about 285 parts - the Cal. 410 (full calendar plus moonphase) has 365. So, considering that also the Cal. 3600 has a 1/10th of a second feature, the parts saving seems minimal. Adding a hacking feature seems like a further develoipment but I am not sure whether it would be possible to add one to the Cal. 400 (if so, this is also not a galactic improvement on the original movement either).
> 
> OK, so it is very likely that the Cal. 3600 is produced on different machinery and the parts are not interchangeable. But in essence - and especially when comparing it to other modern automatic chronographs - it is the same movement:
> 
> ...


I see, I wasn't aware that the movement architecture has changed so little between the two calibers. Given that parts interchangeability is limited, wouldn't it make sense for Zenith to introduce the "updated" cal.400 with more interchangeability? I think Zenith is in an interesting place, trying to balance between reliance on the EP (it seems the 3600, similarities notwithstanding, is marketed as an evolution of the original 3019, rather than a replacement) and trying to move forward as a brand. The Chrono Sport seems to be an interesting representation of this duality with modern construction, but keeping the DNA in form of the movement and tri-color subdials.

I might be biased in the sense that I made my purchase decision based on the mistaken understanding that the cal.3600 is "no longer an EP". I guess Omega had a similar issue when they introduced the 3861 to replace the 1861.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

There is a strong push to automate movement manufacturing across the industry to save as much money as possible. The 400 comes from a different era, so its not particularly amenable to that kind of automation. So, given that for marketing purposes there must be an "El Primero", I expect at some point we will find Zenith saying, "The El Primero is dead, long live the El Primero!".


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

palletwheel said:


> There is a strong push to automate movement manufacturing across the industry to save as much money as possible. The 400 comes from a different era, so its not particularly amenable to that kind of automation. So, given that for marketing purposes there must be an "El Primero", I expect at some point we will find Zenith saying, "The El Primero is dead, long live the El Primero!".


I guess this is the sentiment I was trying to express, but lacked the eloquence.


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## cordi7 (Jan 27, 2019)

I was getting to a point where I wanted to pull the trigger on 38mm Chronomaster El Primero only to find out that it seems to be discontinued. What you guys write hear does lift my spirit a bit, hopefully they will introduce a replacement model - I just wonder if based on Chronomaster Sport’s success the pricing will not be pushed up. Let‘s wait, see and hope for the best 

EDIT: corrected watch name, thank you auto-correct :/


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

cordi7 said:


> I was getting to a point where I wanted to pull the trigger on 38mm rhino master El Primero only to find out that it seems to be discontinued. What you guys write hear does lift my spirit a bit, hopefully they will introduce a replacement model - I just wonder if based on Chronomaster Sport's success the pricing will not be pushed up. Let's wait, see and hope for the best


I think pricing will be fine on the new model, but from what I heard the replacement will be more faithful to the original (no red star on Chrono second hand, ladder bracelet, maybe cursive El Primero on the dial).


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

cordi7 said:


> I was getting to a point where I wanted to pull the trigger on 38mm rhino master El Primero only to find out that it seems to be discontinued. What you guys write hear does lift my spirit a bit, hopefully they will introduce a replacement model - I just wonder if based on Chronomaster Sport's success the pricing will not be pushed up. Let's wait, see and hope for the best


You could always ask one of our two forum sponsers (Toppers Jewellers or Timeless Luxury Watches) to hunt around for a NOS watch. If anyone can source one, they can. Or another AD of your choice. I once saw a Rainbow EP for sale five years after it was discontinued so you should still stand a chance unless it was a very limited watch.

Hartmut Richter


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## cordi7 (Jan 27, 2019)

Thanks for the hint, both are from US though so tax and duties would come on top of the price.
I guess I will try my luck and wait for the replacement model, still some time left till my birthday


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

cordi7 said:


> Thanks for the hint, both are from US though so tax and duties would come on top of the price.
> I guess I will try my luck and wait for the replacement model, still some time left till my birthday


I think the new model is expected to be announced in March/April with first deliveries in June/July.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

Also, I think I saw one in the sales corner not so long ago. Maybe you can message the seller to see if its still available: FS - Zenith El Primero Chronomaster 38mm on s.s...


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## ADillon (Dec 31, 2020)

I also see them going for a premium, much higher than the 42mm which I had always thought was strange. I had wanted to add one to the collection but not at the prices they are going for


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

ADillon said:


> I also see them going for a premium, much higher than the 42mm which I had always thought was strange. I had wanted to add one to the collection but not at the prices they are going for


I think the reason the 38mm has a premium over 42mm is that the 38mm is closer to the original size. Also, with straight lugs, 38mm wears more like 42, and 42mm wears more like 44-45.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

RetiredKarlMarx said:


> I think the reason the 38mm has a premium over 42mm is that the 38mm is closer to the original size. Also, with straight lugs, 38mm wears more like 42, and 42mm wears more like 44-45.


My experience exactly. The Zenith 42mm looks bigger and broader in every way than the other 42mm watch I have (a 1999 Breitling Superocean) despite the Breitling having fifteen times the water resistance.


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## umutug (Sep 14, 2013)

Hi everyone, I have both tried 42 mm and 38 mm versions at the same time at second hand store.

I have preferred the 42 mm one. Because;

The dial of the small one looked to me too crowded.

I didn't like where the date window is.

Lastly, I think the case is too small and although I have a 17 cm medium wrist, I thought the strap was too prominent on my wrist.

Of course, these are all my subjective thoughts

Let me share a few of wrist shots of my 42 mm El primero


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

umutug said:


> Hi everyone, I have both tried 42 mm and 38 mm versions at the same time at second hand store.
> 
> I have preferred the 42 mm one. Because;
> 
> ...


The 42 looks nice if you can pull it off (50 lug-to-lug, not a small watch by any means). Regarding the dial, I think you are referring to the pre-2017 update 38 mm EP. The post update one is actually less crowded than the 42 mm in my opinion.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## umutug (Sep 14, 2013)

@RetiredKarlMarx thanks for your opinions. I already bought the 42 mm one. The photos were taken in my home.

Actually what I mean is that there is too little space at the dial of the 38 mm one, because the sub dials' sizes almost equal to the 42 mm's. So the sub dials take up a lot of space on the dial and are so close to indexes.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

umutug said:


> @RetiredKarlMarx thanks for your opinions. I already bought the 42 mm one. The photos were taken in my home.
> 
> Actually what I mean is that there is too little space at the dial of the 38 mm one, because the sub dials' sizes almost equal to the 42 mm's. So the sub dials take up a lot of space on the dial and are so close to indexes.


I understand. Just saying that the 2017 update resolved that problem (at least for me). If you compare the picture I posted above to your EP, you will see the subdials are significantly smaller and further away from the indices.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## umutug (Sep 14, 2013)

Yes, you are right, the version after 2017 is better than before 

But I still think the 42 mm's proportion is better


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## Baxxxton (Feb 4, 2017)

There will be a new 38mm Chronomaster in July - with the A386 case, the new 1/10 of a second movement and a dial layout that is closer to the original.
Oh and yes, an updated bracelet with the new clasp and micro adjustment.

I've seen the watch already and it is awesome!


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## cordi7 (Jan 27, 2019)

Baxxxton said:


> There will be a new 38mm Chronomaster in July - with the A386 case, the new 1/10 of a second movement and a dial layout that is closer to the original.
> Oh and yes, an updated bracelet with the new clasp and micro adjustment.


Almost too good to be true, fingers crossed as it might be the chronograph to complete my collection


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## Nathan356 (Mar 20, 2016)

Baxxxton said:


> There will be a new 38mm Chronomaster in July - with the A386 case, the new 1/10 of a second movement and a dial layout that is closer to the original.
> Oh and yes, an updated bracelet with the new clasp and micro adjustment.
> 
> I've seen the watch already and it is awesome!


But not awesome enough to take a photo??? Don't do this to us!


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## drewlaws (Apr 7, 2021)

Baxxxton said:


> There will be a new 38mm Chronomaster in July - with the A386 case, the new 1/10 of a second movement and a dial layout that is closer to the original.
> Oh and yes, an updated bracelet with the new clasp and micro adjustment.
> 
> I've seen the watch already and it is awesome!


Good to know. I was thinking about pulling the trigger on a used one but maybe I'll give it a couple months.


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## Baxxxton (Feb 4, 2017)

Nathan356 said:


> But not awesome enough to take a photo??? Don't do this to us!


Had the opportunity to try on a prototype and I'm honestly not sure if I am allowed to share the photos.
Trust me. The watch exists and it will be released in summer.


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

So they just released a new tri-color chronomaster in a tonneau case. Not sure I like it, seems too "faux-vintage" for me.


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## DolleDolf (Mar 29, 2012)

RetiredKarlMarx said:


> So they just released a new tri-color chronomaster in a tonneau case. Not sure I like it, seems too "faux-vintage" for me.


Virtually the same except for the sapphire crystal and the see-through caseback

Has several advantages,
You don't have to scour the internet, garage sales and second hand shops for it with little luck of finding one since only 1000 were made at the time
It won't have been polished to esthetic hell
The movement will be in working condition
It won't be full of service parts, it won't be frankenized and it won't have been worn in the shower and in the ocean.

I love vintage but this ticks all the vintage box without the vintage problems. Count me in! (probably gonna wait for that A386 that is coming in the Summer and make up my mind....)


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## RetiredKarlMarx (Dec 7, 2020)

DolleDolf said:


> Virtually the same except for the sapphire crystal and the see-through caseback
> 
> Has several advantages,
> You don't have to scour the internet, garage sales and second hand shops for it with little luck of finding one since only 1000 were made at the time
> ...


Oh yeah, if you like the vintage styling, this should be really good. I like what zenith is doing with the vintage reeditions, but kind of want to see them take the modern lineup further beyond the chronomaster sport

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KazeKei (Jan 11, 2012)

Just to update that the 38mm and 42mm is still not available at Zenith boutique/AD, heard the same that they are discontinued. Contacted a few grey market dealer and they also does not have it in stock and will have to source for it if I want them.
Love the two tone version since the full RG one is double the price with the differences being only the mid case and caseback! (plus solid RG version comes with solid RG pin buckle instead of folding clasp)


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## umutug (Sep 14, 2013)

Hi guys, Do you know the changes for 42 mm el primero in the 2017 revision


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## Phass (Jul 23, 2017)

I thought the old one better ,than new one ..., the old that discontinued dial cleaner , the new one dial looks very busy , I prefer the old one


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