# HELP: Stolen watch in UPS



## huckson

Here to explain the problem I’ve had: A watch bought in the forum has been alledgedly stolen in UPS:
-I bought a top watch (usd10k) in this forum, watchuseek, posted in the sales forum.
-feedback and reputation of the seller is good so I proceed to the payment.
-I paid it in december but asked him to wait since I’m from Europe and I had to travel to the US in the week commencing the 10th lf January on a business trip. The deal includes insured shipping
-the seller send it on wednesday, January 12th via UPS.
-the shipment arrived to the company I work for on Friday, January 14th. It was received by the person in charge of the shipments, who was advised by the managing director before.
-I got the package around one-two hours after it arrived to the office since I was in a meeting.
-When I pick it up I see it was empty. It did weight less than a pound. It didn’t seem to have anything inside. In my opinion wrapping was not the appropiate for a $10k watch. Just a picture to evaluate yourself if the wrapping was enough..










-I took several pictures before opening it and recorded while I opened it to demonstrate is empty.
-I contacted the seller and sent the pictures to him. He realized that there was a brown tape at the bottom of the case which he didn’t put on it.

After that:
-he told me he was opening a claim to UPS for the refund
-he also told me that he wouldn’t do any refund without UPS’ answer.
-i’ve asking several times to the seller about the status of the claim. A couple of weeks ago the seller told me till that UPS said that nothing wrong in the weights in their plattforms. So refund is denied.
-the seller ask me to investigate in my company in the time from where it arrived till I was given it. I’ve done it with the Managing director and I’m completely sure it hasn’t been stolen in my company.
-last week UPS requested to my company the enpty box so it seems they’re still investigating. But it’s just an empty box and don’t know what they can verify on it.

Having that said, I don’t have the claim reference nor any report from UPS with the information, since the UPS customer is the seller (the one who paid for the shipment) and also the beneficiary of the insurance (in case he has insured it as he states)

I’ve told the seller to provide the information (UPS report about the knvestigation and a copy of the receipt of the shipment, indicating also that is insured) and I hope he will send it. But I’ve asked the seller several times and still got nothing.

I didn’t report to the police at that time since I was travelling back that same friday and also the seller told me he would claim In UPS as the package was insured.

The seller has not reported this to the police nor to Rolex to avoid servicing it in any official distributor. He says he does not keep the serial number.

I state that what happen with UPS is the seller’s responsibility, since I paid for a full insured watch and got nothing but an empty box. UPS does not tell anything to me, since I’m not the sender not their customer.

I’m back in Europe and want to ask for same help on this to see how to proceed as well as your opinion on this.

I’m going to report this to the police. I don’t know if I would sue UPS or I should sue the seller as he’s not refunding the money, or both.
Also I’m in contact with the legal advisor of my company to evaluate next steps.

Really sad to be in this situation and with the, in my opinion, poor reponse of the seller. First time I’ve faced this and unfortunately with my grail.

Please, any help / advice is very helpful welcome.

Thanks million

PS: I’m not still informing in the “watch deal, feedback and reputation” subforum till I have a clearer view of what the seller is finally refunding or not.


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## alucientes

Hi,
Sorry this is happening to you. I have run a mail order rare books business for almost 4 decades. (Some costing a lot more than a Rolex), so I have some experience.

First off: the Seller is responsible for delivery of the item in the condition it was promised. UPS is the agent they hire to make the delivery for them. I dont care how many good feedback backs someone has, (and Im not saying this persona is a scammer, but plenty in the past have built up good rating only to them scam a bunch of people, or someone on a big ticket item.

if I sent an insured item to someone and it arrived empty and not in the state I shipped it, I would immediately file for an insurance claim, and and they take a while to answer or process the claim. That is why you pay for insurance. If the seller is saying: "I spoke to UPS and they wont cover it". That is not how the process works. You file claim. He should have copies of the claim information for you. That you have asked several times and received nothing, is a major red flag. 

Have you confirmed that he actually insured the box for $10k, much less filed a claim? You should have a copy of his shipping receipt that shows this information. 

The chain of custody was never broken because it was delivered by UPS to your office and then right into your hands when you got out of your meeting. So, youre in good hands there, unless the seller lied to you and you paid in cash.

The most important question (and the no 1 rule for all buying via mail order): How did you pay the seller, -if through PayPal, via you debit account, debit or credit card, specify which.

tx and good luck.


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## huckson

alucientes said:


> Hi,
> Sorry this is happening to you. I have run a mail order rare books business for almost 4 decades. (Some costing a lot more than a Rolex), so I have some experience.
> 
> First off: the Seller is responsible for delivery of the item in the condition it was promised. UPS is the agent they hire to make the delivery for them. I dont care how many good feedback backs someone has, (and Im not saying this persona is a scammer, but plenty in the past have built up good rating only to them scam a bunch of people, or someone on a big ticket item.
> 
> if I sent an insured item to someone and it arrived empty and not in the state I shipped it, I would immediately file for an insurance claim, and and they take a while to answer or process the claim. That is why you pay for insurance. If the seller is saying: "I spoke to UPS and they wont cover it". That is not how the process works. You file claim. He should have copies of the claim information for you. That you have asked several times and received nothing, is a major red flag.
> 
> Have you confirmed that he actually insured the box for $10k, much less filed a claim? You should have a copy of his shipping receipt that shows this information.
> 
> The chain of custody was never broken because it was delivered by UPS to your office and then right into your hands when you got out of your meeting. So, youre in good hands there, unless the seller lied to you and you paid in cash.
> 
> The most important question (and the no 1 rule for all buying via mail order): How did you pay the seller, -if through PayPal, via you debit account, debit or credit card, specify which.
> 
> tx and good luck.


Thanks million for your opinion.

I’ve asked several times to the seller for the claim report and tbe UPS receipt with the insurance value. He says he will ask UPS and send it to me but nothing so far.

I agree with you: it’s the seller responsibility and the chain of custody has not been broken. 
In fact, It hasn’t been delivered to a mailbox but to my company. 

I paid via wire/bank transfer. Is there any possibility I could claim with the bank details? Do you know any lawyer that could help?


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## kritameth

Really sorry to hear @huckson, I've been burned once or twice before so I can relate to how gut-wrenching it feels. I can't add much that @alucientes hasn't already, beyond invaluably so might I add; as much as it pains me to say, if it comes down to it please be prepared for an uphill battle since the payment was via wire. Keeping my fingers crossed there's positive developments soon.


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## alucientes

huckson said:


> Thanks million for your opinion.
> 
> I’ve asked several times to the seller for the claim report and tbe UPS receipt with the insurance value. He says he will ask UPS and send it to me but nothing so far.
> 
> I agree with you: it’s the seller responsibility and the chain of custody has not been broken.
> In fact, It hasn’t been delivered to a mailbox but to my company.
> 
> I paid via wire/bank transfer. Is there any possibility I could claim with the bank details? Do you know any lawyer that could help?


Not at all. I know this sucks to hear and you probably know by now, but for the future and anyone else who might read this, , ALWAYS pay with a credit card for all mail-order, even when you trust the seller. Not only do you get the points from the cc company, but you get the security of being able to do a chargeback if things go wrong. A bank wire, Im pretty sure, is like sending cash, but you can ask your bank.

Have you spoken to UPS about this to even confirm that he actually insured the box for $10k?
He should have copies of whatever he filed with UPS, even if it only screenshots. And of course, his original shipping receipt, showing the item was insured for the $10k. 

Has he given you a case number? You said UPS picked up the box, I would definitely be on the phone with their supervisors, and keep a record of every call, the case number, etc.

Personally, I find the seller is not acting in a professional manner at all. You dont ignore someone who paid you $10k and didnt get their item.

I dont think there is much a lawyer can do, honestly,, but I will ask two of them that I know (they may not be that kind of lawyer) and see what legal options you may have (if they know) at your disposal and also do some research on my own, and get back later today.

*Do you know what state the seller lives in? If you would, please direct message me the persons information (just the name and state should be enough) and the tracking number that was on the box. I will call UPS as well.

We can possibly find out if the shipper has a commercial account with UPS or any other business affiliation (which might make pursuing it in small claims court more feasible). I can also see if I find there is any other history of this sort of thing on other platforms or forums with this individual. I will not share any of it publicly. Ill just let you know if I find anything.


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## huckson

kritameth said:


> Really sorry to hear @huckson, I've been burned once or twice before so I can relate to how gut-wrenching it feels. I can't add much that @alucientes hasn't already, beyond invaluably so might I add; as much as it pains me to say, if it comes down to it please be prepared for an uphill battle since the payment was via wire. Keeping my fingers crossed there's positive developments soon.


Thanks million @kritameth for your wishes. Hope also to have positive feedback soon


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## huckson

alucientes said:


> Not at all. I know this sucks to hear and you probably know by now, but for the future and anyone else who might read this, , ALWAYS pay with a credit card for all mail-order, even when you trust the seller. Not only do you get the points from the cc company, but you get the security of being able to do a chargeback if things go wrong. A bank wire, Im pretty sure, is like sending cash, but you can ask your bank.
> 
> Have you spoken to UPS about this to even confirm that he actually insured the box for $10k?
> He should have copies of whatever he filed with UPS, even if it only screenshots. And of course, his original shipping receipt, showing the item was insured for the $10k.
> 
> Has he given you a case number? You said UPS picked up the box, I would definitely be on the phone with their supervisors, and keep a record of every call, the case number, etc.
> 
> Personally, I find the seller is not acting in a professional manner at all. You dont ignore someone who paid you $10k and didnt get their item.
> 
> I dont think there is much a lawyer can do, honestly,, but I will ask two of them that I know (they may not be that kind of lawyer) and see what legal options you may have (if they know) at your disposal and also do some research on my own, and get back later today.
> 
> *Do you know what state the seller lives in? If you would, please direct message me the persons information (just the name and state should be enough) and the tracking number that was on the box. I will call UPS as well.
> 
> We can possibly find out if the shipper has a commercial account with UPS or any other business affiliation (which might make pursuing it in small claims court more feasible). I can also see if I find there is any other history of this sort of thing on other platforms or forums with this individual. I will not share any of it publicly. Ill just let you know if I find anything.


@alucientes: thanks million for your help. Really appreciate it! I’ve felt so helpless till now and your help is greatly apprecited.

There are two main actors:
1) UPS that, if insured, I think they will do whatever in their hands to avoid paying that big amount.
2) the seller, who states that he has insured it. I don’t hesitate he did it (don’t know why but still rely on him) but I’m getting more and more tired. In any case I think he should refund it to me and discuss and press UPS, as well as reporting to the police as it has been stolen to him, not to me.

The seller told me the claim number was the same as the tracking number. Is that correct? Is the claim reference the same as the tracking number in UPS?

I know the state from where it was shipped. I understand is the same as where he lives, but not sure. Sending a pm.

Also, my company has just contacted this week their UPS account manager to try to get some more info. Let’s see if with all this help we can figure out something and come to a solution.

Again, thanks million!!! Just sending a PM


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## Alwaysontime12

Curious how this plays out. Good luck brother


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## nyyankees

Update?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## huckson

Hello all.

Update:
1) About the Seller:
-The seller is not answering. The last new I have from him is from February 22nd. One month ago.
-I’ve called him, send emails, text him. Everything.
-And I see he’s connecting to the forum. So he doesn’t want to answer.
- he hasn’t sent But any proof of insurance of the shipping nor ant claim number.

2) Regarding the case:
-I’m moving this by myself with UPS via the ups Account manager of my company. 
-It seems that is insured (they don’t tell me the amount) since I’m the addressee and not the sender.
-I’ve provided UPS all the information: pictures, proof of the value of the watch, bank receipt with the wire transfers done to the seller for the amount I paid.
-UPS picked the empty box up.
-I have good news from UPS since this seems to be moving forward and they’ve recognized a problem. But I prefer to be cautious till everything is clear.
-now I have a UPS claim number.

Again, I don’t think the seller is a scammer but he’s acting like one, in my opinion. No answer in one month. Crazy.

I’ll keep updating here.

I think explaining this case it worths it for the WUS community to avoid possible similar cases in the future (or at least to know what you can do).

Thanks everyone interested in this case. And those that are helping me out.
THANKS MILLION!


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## DonJ53

_UPS picked the empty box up._ 

You believe the seller did not put the watch inside.


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## huckson

DonJ53 said:


> _UPS picked the empty box up._
> 
> You believe the seller did not put the watch inside.


No, maybe I haven’t explained well: UPS requested the box under the investigation. They asked to recover the box about a month after it was delivered.


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## DonJ53

OK got it. Yes, we all wish you the best in recovering the money.


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## Watchman83

Will be Interesting to hear what the seller has to say .. no contact for a month on a 10k deal that’s gone wrong is worrying 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## huckson

Watchman83 said:


> Will be Interesting to hear what the seller has to say .. no contact for a month on a 10k deal that’s gone wrong is worrying
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, it would be interesting…


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## Jacob’s Watches

alucientes said:


> Hi,
> Sorry this is happening to you. I have run a mail order rare books business for almost 4 decades. (Some costing a lot more than a Rolex), so I have some experience.
> 
> First off: the Seller is responsible for delivery of the item in the condition it was promised. UPS is the agent they hire to make the delivery for them. I dont care how many good feedback backs someone has, (and Im not saying this persona is a scammer, but plenty in the past have built up good rating only to them scam a bunch of people, or someone on a big ticket item.
> 
> if I sent an insured item to someone and it arrived empty and not in the state I shipped it, I would immediately file for an insurance claim, and and they take a while to answer or process the claim. That is why you pay for insurance. If the seller is saying: "I spoke to UPS and they wont cover it". That is not how the process works. You file claim. He should have copies of the claim information for you. That you have asked several times and received nothing, is a major red flag.
> 
> Have you confirmed that he actually insured the box for $10k, much less filed a claim? You should have a copy of his shipping receipt that shows this information.
> 
> The chain of custody was never broken because it was delivered by UPS to your office and then right into your hands when you got out of your meeting. So, youre in good hands there, unless the seller lied to you and you paid in cash.
> 
> The most important question (and the no 1 rule for all buying via mail order): How did you pay the seller, -if through PayPal, via you debit account, debit or credit card, specify which.
> 
> tx and good luck.


Very helpful. Great post


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## horologywonders

huckson said:


> Hello all.
> 
> Update:
> 1) About the Seller:
> -The seller is not answering. The last new I have from him is from February 22nd. One month ago.
> -I’ve called him, send emails, text him. Everything.
> -And I see he’s connecting to the forum. So he doesn’t want to answer.
> - he hasn’t sent But any proof of insurance of the shipping nor ant claim number.
> 
> 2) Regarding the case:
> -I’m moving this by myself with UPS via the ups Account manager of my company.
> -It seems that is insured (they don’t tell me the amount) since I’m the addressee and not the sender.
> -I’ve provided UPS all the information: pictures, proof of the value of the watch, bank receipt with the wire transfers done to the seller for the amount I paid.
> -UPS picked the empty box up.
> -I have good news from UPS since this seems to be moving forward and they’ve recognized a problem. But I prefer to be cautious till everything is clear.
> -now I have a UPS claim number.
> 
> Again, I don’t think the seller is a scammer but he’s acting like one, in my opinion. No answer in one month. Crazy.
> 
> I’ll keep updating here.
> 
> I think explaining this case it worths it for the WUS community to avoid possible similar cases in the future (or at least to know what you can do).
> 
> Thanks everyone interested in this case. And those that are helping me out.
> THANKS MILLION!


best of luck, hate to hear of this nonsense happening to you. if you're not made whole again, soon, i think you ought to out this particular seller to the rest of the board


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## huckson

horologywonders said:


> best of luck, hate to hear of this nonsense happening to you. if you're not made whole again, soon, i think you ought to out this particular seller to the rest of the board


Much appreciated your comments.
No news about this guy: he doesn’t answer the phone calls, nor the texts or emails.

I’m informing in the appropiate subforum about the name of this guy so that everybody is aware.


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## Roningrad

Hi @huckson. Really sorry this happened. I hope and pray all is well. I likewise hope the seller comes to his senses. Quite unethical from what you narrated and the period you have communicated and exerted, patience, effort and understanding is quite remarkable. He may have sent the watch for all we know but now that there's an issue, support and a helping hand on getting things sorted out would be appropriate thing to do.


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## huckson

Roningrad said:


> Hi @huckson. Really sorry this happened. I hope and pray all is well. I likewise hope the seller comes to his senses. Quite unethical from what you narrated and the period you have communicated and exerted, patience, effort and understanding is quite remarkable. He may have sent the watch for all we know but now that there's an issue, support and a helping hand on getting things sorted out would be appropriate thing to do.


Yes, that’s the point: there is a big issue, so let’s help to solve it: reporting to the police, insist with UPS, … it’s not only a question of returning the money back but helping to sort this out. Very dissapointed.


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## Roningrad

huckson said:


> Much appreciated your comments.
> No news about this guy: he doesn’t answer the phone calls, nor the texts or emails.
> 
> I’m informing in the appropiate subforum about the name of this guy so that everybody is aware.


Thanks. That should indeed be done.


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## casper461

Roningrad said:


> Thanks. That should indeed be done.


I hate to say this but I can't see that you will get far with this matter. If UPS is saying the weight was right and won't budge from that stance the big problem you have is at your end. I'm not saying that someone you work with stole the watch but as an outsider, in this matter, I can't be sure that that did not happen and there lies the problem. The people who will decide on the outcome of this matter can only ever consider that as a possibility. I'm really sorry for you and hope that I'm not right.


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## huckson

casper461 said:


> I hate to say this but I can't see that you will get far with this matter. If UPS is saying the weight was right and won't budge from that stance the big problem you have is at your end. I'm not saying that someone you work with stole the watch but as an outsider, in this matter, I can't be sure that that did not happen and there lies the problem. The people who will decide on the outcome of this matter can only ever consider that as a possibility. I'm really sorry for you and hope that I'm not right.


You’re not right: Finally, UPS, after internal investigation, has decided to refund the shipping costs. So they should have found something in the process that did not work as it should. But only the shipping costs but not the full value as the seller finally did not insured it.


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## Roningrad

casper461 said:


> I hate to say this but I can't see that you will get far with this matter. If UPS is saying the weight was right and won't budge from that stance the big problem you have is at your end. I'm not saying that someone you work with stole the watch but as an outsider, in this matter, I can't be sure that that did not happen and there lies the problem. The people who will decide on the outcome of this matter can only ever consider that as a possibility. I'm really sorry for you and hope that I'm not right.


If that would indeed be the case, and I do hope it wouldn’t, then it’s gonna be one tough, rough battle. We’ll have one well-reputed member’s name being most regrettably and most likely tarnished indefinitely.


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## casper461

huckson said:


> You’re not right: Finally, UPS, after internal investigation, has decided to refund the shipping costs. So they should have found something in the process that did not work as it should. But only the shipping costs but not the full value as the seller finally did not insured it.


But just because they have refunded you the shipping costs for whatever reason how does it help your case as to who stole it ?


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## watchman600

Questions:
1. I don't understand what can be learned from this many month sad story/saga:
-Not to buy such an expensive item from a private seller?
-Not to stay silent so long on the identity of the questionable seller,
to hopefully pressure him into making it right?
-Not to use a bank transfer/wire to send the money, 
so there is recourse with your credit card?
(but any honest private seller knows this and needs to protect *himself* as well, so should insist on a bank transfer/wire/zelle)

2a. On such an expensive item, you should have insisted on requiring a signature. I've done this even if I am out of town, and had someone else responsible that I trust sign for it. Then I know that I'm safe and it can't be stolen by just some unknown, opportunistic thief.
b. Also, did the package look tampered with...like opened and resealed? Only then would a claim that it was stolen by the delivery service hold up.

3. What is the conclusion of this story...or is there still no conclusion after 5 months?

---
I'm very sorry this happened to you and hope that the thief doesn't get away with it, whoever he is.


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## DonJ53

_The deal includes insured shipping....._??????????????????

Did the seller tell you this.

I have said this before the Forum permits blowing smoke up GOOD sellers rectums but fails dismally in allowing rogues to be outed.


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## Roningrad

huckson said:


> You’re not right: Finally, UPS, after internal investigation, has decided to refund the shipping costs. So they should have found something in the process that did not work as it should. But only the shipping costs but not the full value as the seller finally did not insured it.


I’m with you buddy! Hope you get the full amount of what you paid for. And if the transaction was truly stinky in the onset as we feared, the feedback and rep should reflect this.


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## casper461

huckson said:


> You’re not right: Finally, UPS, after internal investigation, has decided to refund the shipping costs. So they should have found something in the process that did not work as it should. But only the shipping costs but not the full value as the seller finally did not insured it.


I say again I'm really sorry for you but if it was agreed that the item would be insured by the seller and you can prove that was the agreement then You have to sue the seller in the civil courts but is easier said than done.


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## huckson

casper461 said:


> But just because they have refunded you the shipping costs for whatever reason how does it help your case as to who stole it ?


What it indicates to me it’s just UPS recognizes it’s been on its side


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## casper461

The lesson in all of this is if you are going to sell or buy any expensive item


huckson said:


> What it indicates to me it’s just UPS recognizes it’s been on its side


The problem you have is that is only an assumption.on your part. Whether you like it or not the possibility that it was stolen at your end can't be dismissed. That's not to say it was but no one can say it wasn't.


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## watchman600

insurance would only protect the seller who pays the delivery service for insurance...
and once it is delivered, it would be very hard to prove that they did anything wrong.
---
What are the lessons from this...as I asked in my original post above?


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## huckson

watchman600 said:


> Questions:
> 1. I don't understand what can be learned from this many month sad story/saga:
> -Not to buy such an expensive item from a private seller?
> -Not to stay silent so long on the identity of the questionable seller,
> to hopefully pressure him into making it right?
> -Not to use a bank transfer/wire to send the money,
> so there is recourse with your credit card?
> (but any honest private seller knows this and needs to protect *himself* as well, so should insist on a bank transfer/wire/zelle)
> 
> 2a. On such an expensive item, you should have insisted on requiring a signature. I've done this even if I am out of town, and had someone else responsible that I trust sign for it. Then I know that I'm safe and it can't be stolen by just some unknown, opportunistic thief.
> b. Also, did the package look tampered with...like opened and resealed? Only then would a claim that it was stolen by the delivery service hold up.
> 
> 3. What is the conclusion of this story...or is there still no conclusion after 5 months?
> 
> ---
> I'm very sorry this happened to you and hope that the thief doesn't get away with it, whoever he is.


1) easy to say now… i’ve bought and sold many times to private and this is the first case. But yes, you’re right specially with the payment terms. At least paypal or similar, although the additional fees which in this case would have been worth it.

2a) lesson learned
2b) the package had a brown tape in the bottom side that the seller stated that he didnt put on it.


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## casper461

huckson said:


> 1) easy to say now… i’ve bought and sold many times to private and this is the first case. But yes, you’re right specially with the payment terms. At least paypal or similar, although the additional fees which in this case would have been worth it.
> 
> 2a) lesson learned
> 2b) the package had a brown tape in the bottom side that the seller stated that he didnt put on it.


Again you only have the seller's word for this tape not being on it and even if that is true who can ever say when it was put on there If UPS is saying the weight was right whilst they were handling it you come back to the issue being at your end. The only chain of custody of this item is when UPS had it not before or not after .


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## watchman600

the problem is that, as I mentioned: if I was selling an item, I would want protection
that I receive the money (in an irreversible way) 
before I release the expensive item in my possession.


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## casper461

watchman600 said:


> the problem is that, as I mentioned: if I was selling an item, I would want protection
> that I receive the money (in an irreversible way)
> before I release the expensive item in my possession.


What should happen with such an expensive item is that it should be sent in a proper tamper-proof container with a seal no that can be tracked all the way. As to the money I agree with you as the scams usually come from the buyers.


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## huckson

casper461 said:


> What should happen with such an expensive item is that it should be sent in a proper tamper-proof container with a seal no that can be tracked all the way. As to the money I agree with you as the scams usually come from the buyers.


To me this is one of the key factors. It was very poorly packaged (you can see in my pictures). I’m sure this wouldn’t have happened if the seller has wrapped this better, as you indicate


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## casper461

huckson said:


> To me this is one of the key factors. It was very poorly packaged (you can see in my pictures). I’m sure this wouldn’t have happened if the seller has wrapped this better, as you indicate


I really hope you resolve this matter. You said you had sought legal advice so at least you can see which way to go.


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## watchman600

casper461 said:


> I really hope you resolve this matter. You said you had sought legal advice so at least you can see which way to go.


not looking good. there is no *proof* of wrongdoing. no recourse. scary story.
-----
i took an unnecessary, but calculated risk on a private seller from Germany.
The watch I really wanted turned up on watchpatrol.net and was being offered on a
german watch forum. the guy had only a couple hundred or so posts, but was very responsive
and took pictures with a made-up code and name i gave him to show he actually had the watch...and he sent it fedex insured with a signature required. but still, after I sent him the money, he could have just not sent it and what recourse would I have with a guy from germany (different country) on a german watch site? likely none.
(fortunately, after THREE weeks or more of clearing customs and waiting, 
it arrived in perfect condition...but I was fortunate...and took a risk)


----------



## fskywalker

huckson said:


> No, maybe I haven’t explained well: UPS requested the box under the investigation. They asked to recover the box about a month after it was delivered.


Did he finally insured the package? You said the deal included that but not clear if he did insured it and had claimed the package as lost / stolen.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Ginseng108

This is yet another case that goes to show, if a seller is intent on defrauding you, I mean really committed to taking your money and giving you nothing in return, there likely isn't any way to prevent it.

I don't know if I'd be ballsy enough to risk $10k over the mails and without buyer protection for any watch.


----------



## huckson

In any case what’s annoys me the most is the lack of answer of the seller. It’s a big issue for me but he decided not to follow this up and that’s all.

I think it’s on his side the problem since I didn’t get the watch. But in any case at least it’s in both sides. Not only on mine, since I paid and got nothing. 

Even the seller told me than once UPS recognizes that the weight was not correct when delivering, he well inmediately refund. And UPS has considered that the refund applies in this case and I didn’t get any money back


----------



## Ginseng108

fskywalker said:


> Did he finally insured the package? You said the deal included that but not clear if he did insured it and had claimed the package as lost / stolen.


If he did and he really sent an empty box, then he's made twice his asking price. Wow.


----------



## huckson

fskywalker said:


> Did he finally insured the package? You said the deal included that but not clear if he did insured it and had claimed the package as lost / stolen.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


he did not insured the package.
He did not send any proof of the claim.


----------



## huckson

Ginseng108 said:


> If he did and he really sent an empty box, then he's made twice his asking price. Wow.


No, it’s not the case since it wasn’t insured. I do not think he sent an empty box since the weight indicated in the tracking number is 3 - 3.5 pounds. And I really got 0,5 pounds.


----------



## watchman600

Ginseng108 said:


> I don't know if I'd be ballsy enough to risk $10k over the mails and without buyer protection for any watch.


The problem is: what about selling a watch? would you SELL a watch with a way built-in that could have your money reversed? That doesn't seem wise either. I'm not sure what the solution is.
---
@huckson why don't you name this guy, so that we can avoid him? even if he didn't scam you by sending an empty box, he didn't send it insured which is what your deal was. 
---
Still, it was maybe someone at your office...and not the delivery service...
though it could have been someone at the delivery service too. 
IMPOSSIBLE to solve and know the truth.


----------



## DonJ53

If I were now sending a watch the box would have at least 2 layers of duct or fibre reinforced tape on it. Fully photographed and checked by a pro third party.


----------



## huckson

DonJ53 said:


> If I were now sending a watch the box would have at least 2 layers of duct or fibre reinforced tape on it. Fully photographed and checked by a pro third party.


And if I were buying it I would ask the seller to do the same


----------



## huckson

watchman600 said:


> The problem is: what about selling a watch? would you SELL a watch with a way built-in that could have your money reversed? That doesn't seem wise either. I'm not sure what the solution is.
> ---
> @huckson why don't you name this guy, so that we can avoid him? even if he didn't scam you by sending an empty box, he didn't send it insured which is what your deal was.
> ---
> Still, it was maybe someone at your office...and not the delivery service...
> though it could have been someone at the delivery service too.
> IMPOSSIBLE to solve and know the truth.


I know since many years those guys. And I don't know anything about UPS. So I'd say 99,9% sure...
But this is only my opinion.


----------



## watchman600

"2 layers of duct or fibre reinforced tape on it."
That's a nice idea.
"Fully photographed and checked by a pro third party."
I've never heard of this service...*who* is "a pro third party" you can hire to do this,
to make sure that the watch you are buying is actually sent? I doubt that exists.

why not name the guy here who sold you this watch insured, 
and then did not insure it? something is weird about that.


----------



## DonJ53

Many years ago (1980) before I was fully into watches I found a Rolex sitting on the sink in a washroom.

I was on an drill rig in the middle of the North Sea at the time so I handed it to the Company Man.


----------



## watchman600

@DonJ53 you didn't answer my question. you just gave a totally unrelated story.


----------



## DonJ53

I suppose all the time the label contains the box contents we are open to LIGHT FINGERS


----------



## DonJ53

watchman600 said:


> @DonJ53 you didn't answer my question. you just gave a totally unrelated story.


I was not answering your post but typing.


----------



## huckson

By the way, there is another thing: The seller


watchman600 said:


> "2 layers of duct or fibre reinforced tape on it."
> That's a nice idea.
> "Fully photographed and checked by a pro third party."
> I've never heard of this service...*who* is "a pro third party" you can hire to do this,
> to make sure that the watch you are buying is actually sent? I doubt that exists.
> 
> why not name the guy here who sold you this watch insured,
> and then did not insure it? something is weird about that.


Just posted in the Deals & Reputation.
I should have done this before, but I had the hope that the seller finally will answer.

Also, I've talking with UPS since they work with my company since years, to see if there is a possibility of a full or partial reimbursement. At least, I would like to know in which part o the process has this happened.


----------



## VincentG

I would like to make a suggestion that does not apply to the OPs lost/stolen watch, but to future watch "deals". Any watch (or other valuable object) I buy or sell that is in excess of $1-2k I insist on USPS Registered Insured mail, a couple of reasons why, 1st and foremost the insurance is much less expensive, especially over $5k. All Registered packages must be tamper-proof and when consigned all seams are cancelled across the seam using the days stamp, then the package remains under lock and key and signed out to a specific individual for the entire transit time. Then when delivered it is not simply signed for but the signing person must print legibly as well. A scammer will not agree to Registered Mail shipping because of the risk of committing a Federal Crime, namely "wire fraud" across interstate lines. So if the seller is unwilling to ship via Registered Mail because of there being too much hassle, then I am not a buyer, simple as that. It does not make it foolproof it simply reduces the chance of tampering while in shipment.


----------



## Caliguli

Forgive me I haven't read all the responses to this thread. I've checked the threads related to this briefly though and see the paperwork the original seller took a photo of had the serial number edited out.

Surely they still had the none edited version of the photos with the serial number on his computer (to edit the serial out) on his phone, or even in his deleted photos?

The seller does seem legit but man that's very very strange In my opinion. Maybe I'm missing something, apologise If so.


----------



## watchman600

@huckson you literally JUST posted it in the deals & reputation 15 minutes ago.


----------



## huckson

watchman600 said:


> @huckson you literally JUST posted it in the deals & reputation 15 minutes ago.


Yes, you’re right. I’ve just posted a moment ago.


----------



## huckson

VincentG said:


> I would like to make a suggestion that does not apply to the OPs lost/stolen watch, but to future watch "deals". Any watch (or other valuable object) I buy or sell that is in excess of $1-2k I insist on USPS Registered Insured mail, a couple of reasons why, 1st and foremost the insurance is much less expensive, especially over $5k. All Registered packages must be tamper-proof and when consigned all seams are cancelled across the seam using the days stamp, then the package remains under lock and key and signed out to a specific individual for the entire transit time. Then when delivered it is not simply signed for but the signing person must print legibly as well. A scammer will not agree to Registered Mail shipping because of the risk of committing a Federal Crime, namely "wire fraud" across interstate lines. So if the seller is unwilling to ship via Registered Mail because of there being too much hassle, then I am not a buyer, simple as that. It does not make it foolproof it simply reduces the chance of tampering while in shipment.


This is one of my lesson learned: Require always USPS Register shipping

Thanks for sharing


----------



## huckson

Caliguli said:


> Forgive me I haven't read all the responses to this thread. I've checked the threads related to this briefly though and see the paperwork the original seller took a photo of had the serial number edited out.
> 
> Surely they still had the none edited version of the photos with the serial number on his computer (to edit the serial out) on his phone, or even in his deleted photos?
> 
> The seller does seem legit but man that's very very strange In my opinion. Maybe I'm missing something, apologise If so.


Thanks for the detail. Yes, the seller should have the non-edited picture with the serial… don’t know why he’s not giving the information to the WUS admin.


----------



## Caliguli

huckson said:


> Thanks for the detail. Yes, the seller should have the non-edited picture with the serial… don’t know why he’s not giving the information to the WUS admin.


Suspicious In my opinion. Even If legit I agree 100% It shouldn't be at a loss to you. You never got what you paid for, seller should have refunded you.


----------



## watchman600

VincentG said:


> insist on USPS Registered Insured mail


Interesting. Thanks for the detailed info. 
But this would only work for packages (mailed & received) within the U.S. right?
---
@huckson Again, I'm sorry this happened to you.
The story stinks all around. 
I hope we ALL have a great weekend.


----------



## cheu_f50

watchman600 said:


> The problem is: what about selling a watch? would you SELL a watch with a way built-in that could have your money reversed? That doesn't seem wise either. I'm not sure what the solution is.
> ---
> @huckson why don't you name this guy, so that we can avoid him? even if he didn't scam you by sending an empty box, he didn't send it insured which is what your deal was.
> ---
> Still, it was maybe someone at your office...and not the delivery service...
> though it could have been someone at the delivery service too.
> IMPOSSIBLE to solve and know the truth.


Watchman600 is right. For this post to be useful for others, we need to know the name of the guy. Maybe even hear his side of the story. Otherwise it's a sad story where you lost money, and the truth is unknown. If he shipped with weight, and you received a box with no weight, I'm going to assume the foul play isn't on the seller until proven otherwise.

All the talk about packaging, types of tape, impact absorbing filler etc ... that's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Had you received your watch in good shape but with poor packaging, you wouldn't even let that linger in your mind.

The key point for me here is what was the specific agreement when it comes to insurance, and why it wasn't purchased. Was it a misunderstanding, shipper tried to save a couple of hundred dollars, or it slipped his mind purely as a mistake?

Speculating "whodunit" isn't going to get you anywhere. FWIW, while I don't doubt for one second you are the victim here, under the circumstances it is very easy for the seller to assume you are the scammer. European buyer wants to buy a watch in the US. European buyer decide the location of shipment is not an address of his own. European buyer comes to the US for 1 week to retrieve package from someone else who received it and without filing police report upon noticing something is wrong. Buyer is back in Europe continue to ask for refund.

I would not stop responding myself, but at the same time I cam see why someone would.


----------



## Caliguli

Edit; did link the original for sale post but deleted in case it's against the rules.


----------



## Caliguli

cheu_f50 said:


> Watchman600 is right. For this post to be useful for others, we need to know the name of the guy. Maybe even hear his side of the story. Otherwise it's a sad story where you lost money, and the truth is unknown. If he shipped with weight, and you received a box with no weight, I'm going to assume the foul play isn't on the seller until proven otherwise.
> 
> All the talk about packaging, types of tape, impact absorbing filler etc ... that's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Had you received your watch in good shape but with poor packaging, you wouldn't even let that linger in your mind.
> 
> The key point for me here is what was the specific agreement when it comes to insurance, and why it wasn't purchased. Was it a misunderstanding, shipper tried to save a couple of hundred dollars, or it slipped his mind purely as a mistake?
> 
> Speculating "whodunit" isn't going to get you anywhere. FWIW, while I don't doubt for one second you are the victim here, under the circumstances it is very easy for the seller to assume you are the scammer. European buyer wants to buy a watch in the US. European buyer decide the location of shipment is not an address of his own. European buyer comes to the US for 1 week to retrieve package from someone else who received it and without filing police report upon noticing something is wrong. Buyer is back in Europe continue to ask for refund.
> 
> I would not stop responding myself, but at the same time I cam see why someone would.


Also, good post with quality points made.


----------



## cheu_f50

huckson said:


> You’re not right: Finally, UPS, after internal investigation, has decided to refund the shipping costs. So they should have found something in the process that did not work as it should. But only the shipping costs but not the full value as the seller finally did not insured it.


They may or may not have found anything. UPS likely just want to move on, because the cost of shipping is all they are liable for, if insurance was not purchased. Refunding 100% of what as paid, which by the sound of it is just the shipping cost, closed the case on their end without dedicating additional resource.


----------



## huckson

cheu_f50 said:


> Watchman600 is right. For this post to be useful for others, we need to know the name of the guy. Maybe even hear his side of the story. Otherwise it's a sad story where you lost money, and the truth is unknown. If he shipped with weight, and you received a box with no weight, I'm going to assume the foul play isn't on the seller until proven otherwise.
> 
> All the talk about packaging, types of tape, impact absorbing filler etc ... that's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Had you received your watch in good shape but with poor packaging, you wouldn't even let that linger in your mind.
> 
> The key point for me here is what was the specific agreement when it comes to insurance, and why it wasn't purchased. Was it a misunderstanding, shipper tried to save a couple of hundred dollars, or it slipped his mind purely as a mistake?
> 
> Speculating "whodunit" isn't going to get you anywhere. FWIW, while I don't doubt for one second you are the victim here, under the circumstances it is very easy for the seller to assume you are the scammer. European buyer wants to buy a watch in the US. European buyer decide the location of shipment is not an address of his own. European buyer comes to the US for 1 week to retrieve package from someone else who received it and without filing police report upon noticing something is wrong. Buyer is back in Europe continue to ask for refund.
> 
> I would not stop responding myself, but at the same time I cam see why someone would.


Well, I was for a company who offices in both, Spain and USA. I can provide via MP my boarding passes for the week I was there.

Regarding the insurance, it’s stated in the main thread that this was offered insured. I did not accept any other shipment.
By the way: the insurance protects the seller (who is the one paying for that) in any case so maybe this is not as key. Only because of the fact that if it’s insured they seller would tend easily to refund the money because he’s refunded


----------



## lvt

Can't believe that it's the shipping box for a $10K Rolex watch.


----------



## DonJ53

Yes, very poor packaging for £10k. A real of sticky as hell tape is only £2.


----------



## cheu_f50

huckson said:


> Well, I was for a company who offices in both, Spain and USA. I can provide via MP my boarding passes for the week I was there.
> 
> Regarding the insurance, it’s stated in the main thread that this was offered insured. I did not accept any other shipment.
> By the way: the insurance protects the seller (who is the one paying for that) in any case so maybe this is not as key. Only because of the fact that if it’s insured they seller would tend easily to refund the money because he’s refunded


I have no reason to doubt you, but that's not to say the seller doesn't have his/her doubt.

Insurance protects the seller in the event that something happened to the package during transit. Someone from your office accepted the package on your behalf already. Package wasn't damaged, lost, and merely suspected the content was stolen in transit, since the package was shipped with weight and received without weight by the time you got it. but no way to proof where the watch was stolen.

It is in fact the key because the missing insurance is what you were being defrauded on, and the only thing that can be proven as a fault of the seller. The subsequent fact that the item has been stolen, responsibility for that is unknown since no one knows when it was stolen.

Looking at the box picture ... it looks like a sticker was placed on top of the brown tape that wasn't put on by the seller. So that seems to indicate whoever opened the box and sealed it with brown tape, have access to shipping related stickers. Whatever that means I don't know.


----------



## casper461

cheu_f50 said:


> I have no reason to doubt you, but that's not to say the seller doesn't have his/her doubt.
> 
> Insurance protects the seller in the event that something happened to the package during transit. Someone from your office accepted the package on your behalf already. Package wasn't damaged, lost, and merely suspected the content was stolen in transit, since the package was shipped with weight and received without weight by the time you got it. but no way to proof where the watch was stolen.
> 
> It is in fact the key because the missing insurance is what you were being defrauded on, and the only thing that can be proven as a fault of the seller. The subsequent fact that the item has been stolen, responsibility for that is unknown since no one knows when it was stolen.
> 
> Looking at the box picture ... it looks like a sticker was placed on top of the brown tape that wasn't put on by the seller. So that seems to indicate whoever opened the box and sealed it with brown tape, has access to shipping related stickers. Whatever that means I don't know.


That's the problem it is impossible to know exactly when this brown tape was put on. If it was done after it had been sent why would someone at UPS put a sticker over it? What is the reference no on that sticker 416-6300 That no is important as if it is the reference no for the item it would tend to show the tape was on it from the start. I think the OP needs to ask a lot more questions. How did the package get to UPS in the first place Was it through a third party who registered weight at the time they opened it took item out and resealed it using a proper sticker.If that was the case UPS would accept the original weight if it was put into the system by an agent In the UK you send via local shops who act as agents to weigh it etc. The more I think about this it is what would make more sense. The problem is OP and seller no longer talking so the information won't be easy to get.


----------



## krcarserv

huckson said:


> Here to explain the problem I’ve had: A watch bought in the forum has been alledgedly stolen in UPS:
> -I bought a top watch (usd10k) in this forum, watchuseek, posted in the sales forum.
> -feedback and reputation of the seller is good so I proceed to the payment.
> -I paid it in december but asked him to wait since I’m from Europe and I had to travel to the US in the week commencing the 10th lf January on a business trip. The deal includes insured shipping
> -the seller send it on wednesday, January 12th via UPS.
> -the shipment arrived to the company I work for on Friday, January 14th. It was received by the person in charge of the shipments, who was advised by the managing director before.
> -I got the package around one-two hours after it arrived to the office since I was in a meeting.
> -When I pick it up I see it was empty. It did weight less than a pound. It didn’t seem to have anything inside. In my opinion wrapping was not the appropiate for a $10k watch. Just a picture to evaluate yourself if the wrapping was enough..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -I took several pictures before opening it and recorded while I opened it to demonstrate is empty.
> -I contacted the seller and sent the pictures to him. He realized that there was a brown tape at the bottom of the case which he didn’t put on it.
> 
> After that:
> -he told me he was opening a claim to UPS for the refund
> -he also told me that he wouldn’t do any refund without UPS’ answer.
> -i’ve asking several times to the seller about the status of the claim. A couple of weeks ago the seller told me till that UPS said that nothing wrong in the weights in their plattforms. So refund is denied.
> -the seller ask me to investigate in my company in the time from where it arrived till I was given it. I’ve done it with the Managing director and I’m completely sure it hasn’t been stolen in my company.
> -last week UPS requested to my company the enpty box so it seems they’re still investigating. But it’s just an empty box and don’t know what they can verify on it.
> 
> Having that said, I don’t have the claim reference nor any report from UPS with the information, since the UPS customer is the seller (the one who paid for the shipment) and also the beneficiary of the insurance (in case he has insured it as he states)
> 
> I’ve told the seller to provide the information (UPS report about the knvestigation and a copy of the receipt of the shipment, indicating also that is insured) and I hope he will send it. But I’ve asked the seller several times and still got nothing.
> 
> I didn’t report to the police at that time since I was travelling back that same friday and also the seller told me he would claim In UPS as the package was insured.
> 
> The seller has not reported this to the police nor to Rolex to avoid servicing it in any official distributor. He says he does not keep the serial number.
> 
> I state that what happen with UPS is the seller’s responsibility, since I paid for a full insured watch and got nothing but an empty box. UPS does not tell anything to me, since I’m not the sender not their customer.
> 
> I’m back in Europe and want to ask for same help on this to see how to proceed as well as your opinion on this.
> 
> I’m going to report this to the police. I don’t know if I would sue UPS or I should sue the seller as he’s not refunding the money, or both.
> Also I’m in contact with the legal advisor of my company to evaluate next steps.
> 
> Really sad to be in this situation and with the, in my opinion, poor reponse of the seller. First time I’ve faced this and unfortunately with my grail.
> 
> Please, any help / advice is very helpful welcome.
> 
> Thanks million
> 
> PS: I’m not still informing in the “watch deal, feedback and reputation” subforum till I have a clearer view of what the seller is finally refunding or not.


So sad as Ive been through this Twice.Oe Character Sold me a Rolex President with a Myriad Dial from North Carolina.I waited and waited.He shipped it to the wrong address so I got the Pot Office Involved to pick up the package.I opednt e Box on the USPS Counter in front of Witnesses.He sent me 3 XL Hawaii Type Shirts.he also used an Attys Name,when I called the "eal Atty" He took my case,I paid a PI to follow Him,He was an Extra Large and smoked just like the Shirts.The Lawyer took him to Mediation as I wanted him in Jail.He paid me back plus the Atty Fees in Installments.Today you can find anyone,Im a Former Law Enforcement Officer and have helped so many people from Scammers,the Package weight is the same when it arrived,that indicates there was NO WATCH and He is a SCAMMER.Locate Him and Sue!!!


----------



## cheu_f50

casper461 said:


> That's the problem it is impossible to know exactly when this brown tape was put on. If it was done after it had been sent why would someone at UPS put a sticker over it? What is the reference no on that sticker 416-6300 That no is important as if it is the reference no for the item it would tend to show the tape was on it from the start. I think the OP needs to ask a lot more questions.


If someone at UPS steals the watch, maybe they place the sticker there to disguise the fact that brown tape was added after the fact. Bottom line, being the detective here among us doesn't make a difference. Or someone stole the content upon delivery, add the sticker that they peeled off of another box to disguise the tape.

This is a matter of grand thief and should be handled by the police. The only question that can be answered here is the seller telling us why insurance wasn't paid for with shipping. And I suppose legally a judge can determine if the seller is liable for the full amount because insurance wasn't included as stated in the ad.


----------



## Caliguli

krcarserv said:


> So sad as Ive been through this Twice.Oe Character Sold me a Rolex President with a Myriad Dial from North Carolina.I waited and waited.He shipped it to the wrong address so I got the Pot Office Involved to pick up the package.I opednt e Box on the USPS Counter in front of Witnesses.He sent me 3 XL Hawaii Type Shirts.he also used an Attys Name,when I called the "eal Atty" He took my case,I paid a PI to follow Him,He was an Extra Large and smoked just like the Shirts.The Lawyer took him to Mediation as I wanted him in Jail.He paid me back plus the Atty Fees in Installments.Today you can find anyone,Im a Former Law Enforcement Officer and have helped so many people from Scammers,the Package weight is the same when it arrived,that indicates there was NO WATCH and He is a SCAMMER.Locate Him and Sue!!!


If the package weight was the same when shipped It's 100% a scam. I may have missed that part, also odd the holding back serials, not insuring, pathetic packaging, etc. 10k Is a lot of money and might be worth someone losing a bit of internet forum reputation over. Hasn't reported the serials because he can't get the watch he kept serviced In future.


----------



## casper461

Caliguli said:


> If the package weight was the same when shipped It's 100% a scam. I may have missed that part, also odd the holding back serials, not insuring, pathetic packaging, etc. 10k Is a lot of money and might be worth someone losing a bit of internet forum reputation over. Hasn't reported the serials because he can't get the watch he kept serviced In future.


No not at all the weight was different when sent it was heavier than when OP got box.But as I have suggested before it even got into the UPS system an agent could have weighed it the took watch out so as far as UPS is concerned that was the weight going through their system.I am of the opinion that the seller was not a scammer and it was not stolen at the OPs end It was removed by an agent of UPS before the stickers went on.


----------



## Caliguli

casper461 said:


> No not at all the weight was different when sent it was heavier than when OP got box.But as I have suggested before it even got into the UPS system an agent could have weighed it the took watch out so as far as UPS is concerned that was the weight going through their system.I am of the opinion that the seller was not a scammer and it was not stolen at the OPs end It was removed by an agent of UPS before the stickers went on.


Ah okay sorry my misunderstanding thank you for clearing that up bud. Sad situation.


----------



## Tseg

Moral of the story, do as Rolex requires when sending watch in for service... require shipment be USPS Registered... USPS puts tamper-proof tape across all seams. There is no messing with the box until opened... and certainly requiring signature upon delivery is important as well. Of course, adequate insurance is also critical.


----------



## watchman600

Tseg said:


> Moral of the story, do as Rolex requires when sending watch in for service... require shipment be USPS Registered... USPS puts tamper-proof tape across all seams. There is no messing with the box until opened... and certainly requiring signature upon delivery is important as well. Of course, adequate insurance is also critical.


@VincentG mentioned this as well...to insist on USPS Registered Insured mail.
My question is:
this only works for packages both mailed & received within the U.S. right?


VincentG said:


> I would like to make a suggestion that does not apply to the OPs lost/stolen watch, but to future watch "deals". Any watch (or other valuable object) I buy or sell that is in excess of $1-2k I insist on USPS Registered Insured mail, a couple of reasons why, 1st and foremost the insurance is much less expensive, especially over $5k. All Registered packages must be tamper-proof and when consigned all seams are cancelled across the seam using the days stamp, then the package remains under lock and key and signed out to a specific individual for the entire transit time. Then when delivered it is not simply signed for but the signing person must print legibly as well. A scammer will not agree to Registered Mail shipping because of the risk of committing a Federal Crime, namely "wire fraud" across interstate lines. So if the seller is unwilling to ship via Registered Mail because of there being too much hassle, then I am not a buyer, simple as that. It does not make it foolproof it simply reduces the chance of tampering while in shipment.


----------



## Tseg

watchman600 said:


> @VincentG mentioned this as well...to insist on USPS Registered Insured mail.
> My question is:
> this only works for packages both mailed & received within the U.S. right?


Registered Mail® International (usps.com) 
Link to International description... not sure what to make of it?


----------



## watchman600

@Tseg It doesn't sound good at all...to use internationally.
If I'm reading it right, they will only insure it up to $42.87 
which doesn't make much sense, but that's what it seems to say:

*Is any insurance or indemnity available for International Registered Mail items?*

Yes, indemnity is payable for loss, damage, or missing contents. The indemnity limit for all destination countries changes each year and can be found in the International Mail Manual (IMM) section 333.2. As of January 1, 2022, that limit is $42.87. *Regardless of the indemnity limit, the mailer must declare the full value of the item(s)* mailed with Registered Mail service.


*Note:* Indemnity limits are much lower for Registered Mail service items than for insured mail.
Claims will not be paid above the indemnity limit, which USPS does not control.


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## VincentG

watchman600 said:


> @VincentG mentioned this as well...to insist on USPS Registered Insured mail.
> My question is:
> this only works for packages both mailed & received within the U.S. right?


Yes is does only apply to CONUS, or USA anyway. Sorry


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## fskywalker

VincentG said:


> I would like to make a suggestion that does not apply to the OPs lost/stolen watch, but to future watch "deals". Any watch (or other valuable object) I buy or sell that is in excess of $1-2k I insist on USPS Registered Insured mail, a couple of reasons why, 1st and foremost the insurance is much less expensive, especially over $5k. All Registered packages must be tamper-proof and when consigned all seams are cancelled across the seam using the days stamp, then the package remains under lock and key and signed out to a specific individual for the entire transit time. Then when delivered it is not simply signed for but the signing person must print legibly as well. A scammer will not agree to Registered Mail shipping because of the risk of committing a Federal Crime, namely "wire fraud" across interstate lines. So if the seller is unwilling to ship via Registered Mail because of there being too much hassle, then I am not a buyer, simple as that. It does not make it foolproof it simply reduces the chance of tampering while in shipment.


+1 on USPS Registered mail. Picture below shows the level of labeling and seams stamping mentioned by VicentG above; definitely the safest method to ship from the US Postal Service with an insurance limit of $50,000











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## VincentG

fskywalker said:


> +1 on USPS Registered mail. Picture below shows the level of labeling and seams stamping mentioned by VicentG above; definitely the safest method to ship from the US Postal Service with an insurance limit of $50,000
> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Plus it is always under the lock and key of a single individual who has signed (internally) for it while in transit, it is their butt in the sling if something goes wrong. It is NOT just a bunch of random people, both temps and full timers in a huge processing room.


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## Mauric

cheu_f50 said:


> Watchman600 is right. For this post to be useful for others, we need to know the name of the guy. Maybe even hear his side of the story. Otherwise it's a sad story where you lost money, and the truth is unknown. If he shipped with weight, and you received a box with no weight, I'm going to assume the foul play isn't on the seller until proven otherwise.
> 
> All the talk about packaging, types of tape, impact absorbing filler etc ... that's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Had you received your watch in good shape but with poor packaging, you wouldn't even let that linger in your mind.
> 
> The key point for me here is what was the specific agreement when it comes to insurance, and why it wasn't purchased. Was it a misunderstanding, shipper tried to save a couple of hundred dollars, or it slipped his mind purely as a mistake?
> 
> Speculating "whodunit" isn't going to get you anywhere. FWIW, while I don't doubt for one second you are the victim here, under the circumstances it is very easy for the seller to assume you are the scammer. European buyer wants to buy a watch in the US. European buyer decide the location of shipment is not an address of his own. European buyer comes to the US for 1 week to retrieve package from someone else who received it and without filing police report upon noticing something is wrong. Buyer is back in Europe continue to ask for refund.
> 
> I would not stop responding myself, but at the same time I cam see why someone would.


European buyer only wanted to save the taxes and wanted the watch delivered at the safest location. What is it suspicious here...?


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## Mauric

huckson said:


> In any case what’s annoys me the most is the lack of answer of the seller. It’s a big issue for me but he decided not to follow this up and that’s all.
> 
> I think it’s on his side the problem since I didn’t get the watch. But in any case at least it’s in both sides. Not only on mine, since I paid and got nothing.
> 
> Even the seller told me than once UPS recognizes that the weight was not correct when delivering, he well inmediately refund. And UPS has considered that the refund applies in this case and I didn’t get any money back


You most name the seller to avoid any transactions with him.


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## Pepesdad

Might be smart to find a watch/jeweler store that has locations in both countries...use the store and pay them for the shipping and know that it is within their network so it leaves an authorized store and goes to an authorized store and you pick it up from that authorized store...no chance for someone to do a nefarious deed. Store to store transmission. Yeah you pay for the store to do this, but you get what you paid for. Just a thought to ponder.


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## SouthTX

know nothing on international shipping but within the US of A use USPS. USA, AD shipped an expensive (to me) watch and politely demanded we use USPS. All was well.

Hope it works out OP.


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