# New MKII idea: Pan AM GMT White Dial



## tadman (Mar 7, 2008)

Anybody ever hear that the Rolex GMT was developed for Pan Am pilots? A lesser known fact is that the Pan Am management could buy a white-dialed GMT. Both had a pepsi-colored bakelite bezel. 

I would love to see a MKII GMT with white dial and bakelite pepsi bezel...


----------



## GregoryD (Jan 31, 2009)

I would just love to see a white dial on any MkII, really. A white dialed Vantage would be stellar, I think, and I like your idea of a white dialed GMT, too!


----------



## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

tadman said:


> Anybody ever hear that the Rolex GMT was developed for Pan Am pilots? A lesser known fact is that the Pan Am management could buy a white-dialed GMT. Both had a pepsi-colored bakelite bezel.
> 
> I would love to see a MKII GMT with white dial and bakelite pepsi bezel...


You mean, like THIS??? 
Possibly the Kingston's existing case spec, with the LRRP's GMT movement, MkII logo (of course), and a fancy name like "Flying Clipper" or - better still (if you could obtain the rights) a small blue-and-white Pan Am logo above the 6 O' Clock position? What a good idea!


----------



## toph (Oct 12, 2008)

now that is one MKII i would buy and woudl even wait for


----------



## Beau8 (May 24, 2008)

Like the chocolate color GMT~Cheers!


----------



## Sweep (May 16, 2010)

GregoryD said:


> I would just love to see a white dial on any MkII, really. A white dialed Vantage would be stellar, I think, and I like your idea of a white dialed GMT, too!


I would love a white dial or a MKII dress watch.


----------



## tadman (Mar 7, 2008)

Now we're cooking with gas:
1. Kingston case
2. Kingston dial in white
3. GMT mvment
4. Kingston hands + 24hr hand
5. Bakelite- absolutely has to be bakelite - pepsi bezel.
6. Names like Clipper, China Clipper, Trippe Timer (a play on Pan Am founder Trippe's name), Intercontinental, etc...

Nice thing is, there's not a lot of engineering to do that I can see, the parts are all available and given the Kingston experiment - Bill's probably learned the pitfalls of a limited production product. Maybe an easier project.

Heck it might be easier to do two limited edition projects at once - maybe has more buying power or pull with suppliers but still the limited edition appeal of a 300-piece run.


----------



## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

How nice to see that this keeps coming up. Earlier this year, there was already a thread about this subject and on August 31, I posted this: https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/re-reading-old-post-rolex-pan-am-content-443337.html about the same watch.

At that time, I suggested the name *Key West*. KW is the founding place of Pan Am and the name of a town is in line with 'Kingston' 
I really like the idea of a 'Pan Am' inspired watch. Come to think about it: given the choice of the Pan Am vs. the Project 300 watch, I would choose the Pan Am. Why? There's nothing like that around and the Project 300 tends to lean towards the Watchco Omegas (pricewise).

Regards,

Menno


----------



## grosby (Feb 16, 2006)

Thieuster said:


> How nice to see that this keeps coming up. Earlier this year, there was already a thread about this subject and on August 31, I posted this: https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/re-reading-old-post-rolex-pan-am-content-443337.html about the same watch.
> 
> At that time, I suggested the name *Key West*. KW is the founding place of Pan Am and the name of a town is in line with 'Kingston'
> I really like the idea of a 'Pan Am' inspired watch. Come to think about it: given the choice of the Pan Am vs. the Project 300 watch, I would choose the Pan Am. Why? There's nothing like that around and the Project 300 tends to lean towards the Watchco Omegas (pricewise).
> ...


+!
That is very clever, "Key West" is perfect! The GMT Pan Am is unique and only a WIS would know its significance....

I too, would get one over the 300.......


----------



## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

Why would it need to be a limited edition? Why can't MKII just produce a watch and sell it?

I'm done with limited edition watches that require waits in excess of a year - or even months. If MKII builds it, puts it on the site and can deliver in a week or two I'll consider buying another MKII watch. I won't be waiting around for another LE watch though, I've found the Kingston wait somewhat tiresome.


----------



## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

It's deja vu all over again.

We've done this thread at least once already.

I think we all want this, myself included. It needs to have a silver roulette "open" date wheel with classic font and an acrylic bezel. Not crazy about the white dial tho - I'll take mine in black. 

Ref. 6542 - also known as the "Pussy Galore" model for obvious reasons - the character wore it.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm in!!!

I actually have started my own project to build one of these to hold me over until (or if I guess) it gets built. Will have to post pix of the dial I came up with. I'd love a black dial but the white was really been growing on me. I guess I'd take whatever

I think this would be a really easy transition for bill for two reasons:

1. He already did the leg work on the Kingston and hopefully can fit a GMT into that case
2. Will have already gone through the work using a sapphire bezel insert for the 300. Just think about it...A 6542 homage with a sapphire, lumed bezel. Makes me all warm inside.


----------



## Sweep (May 16, 2010)

*Bump*


----------



## Trel (Nov 21, 2009)

A white-dialed GMT, especially with the faux-tritium patina lume and a Pepsi-bezel, would be so sweet. That would be a MkII I would sit on a waiting list for.

I don't know how difficult it would be to do (probably impossibly so) but the hour hand needs to be slaved to the GMT hand (like the Rolex GMT M.-II or the Omega Sea. GMT)and not vice-versa. A bezel that only has 12 click positions would be nice too.

My vote on the name would go towards "Intercontinental". It sounds strong and jet-setting.


----------



## medtech (May 26, 2007)

Now I'll vote for that!!



TheDude said:


> It's deja vu all over again.
> 
> We've done this thread at least once already.
> 
> ...


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Trel said:


> A white-dialed GMT, especially with the faux-tritium patina lume and a Pepsi-bezel, would be so sweet. That would be a MkII I would sit on a waiting list for.
> 
> I don't know how difficult it would be to do (probably impossibly so) but the hour hand needs to be slaved to the GMT hand (like the Rolex GMT M.-II or the Omega Sea. GMT)and not vice-versa. A bezel that only has 12 click positions would be nice too.
> 
> My vote on the name would go towards "Intercontinental". It sounds strong and jet-setting.


I was designing a white GMT dial myself and without the aged lume, it looked super boring. I think the big draw to the look is that white with the tan/brown lume. Looks AMAZING. I guess if it was done without it would look like a white Explorer II. Not bad either i guess. Would be awesome to be able to choose between either white or black dial


----------



## hooyah22 (Sep 27, 2009)

Ill take two! Seriously though, I'd absolutely love to see this done by MKII


----------



## tadman (Mar 7, 2008)

Little known fact: Intercontinental Hotels were founded by Pan Am as a way to house travelers overnight while on trans-Pacific flights. I believe the first Intercontinental was on Midway Island.


----------



## Sweep (May 16, 2010)

66Cooper said:


> I was designing a white GMT dial myself and without the aged lume, it looked super boring. I think the big draw to the look is that white with the tan/brown lume. Looks AMAZING. I guess if it was done without it would look like a white Explorer II. Not bad either i guess. Would be awesome to be able to choose between either white or black dial


It would be interesting to see what you have come up with or one of your early non-refined works if you want to keep it to yourself.

Could the problem of the lume on a white dial be resolved with a contrasting border to the lume? I think that may be key. I actually think a navy would be better than black.


----------



## Trel (Nov 21, 2009)

Superluminova comes in a color called "vintage tritium".

Do you think that blue index rings would look better than black? I would think that they are too close to each other and too small to really notice.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Sweep said:


> It would be interesting to see what you have come up with or one of your early non-refined works if you want to keep it to yourself.
> 
> Could the problem of the lume on a white dial be resolved with a contrasting border to the lume? I think that may be key. I actually think a navy would be better than black.


I've been meaning to post. When to look for them but they are all on my work computer. I'm out till the 3rd. I do so when I get back. One thing I did was add my own name to it.

Yes, you almost have to have the contracting rule around the lume whether its getting white or aged lume. That is a major part of the design for both the black and white faces. Blue might be nice. Maybe I will try that when I get back. That would make the rest of the type on the dial blue as well though. Would go nice with the pepsi bezel for sure.


----------



## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

I agree. I also can imagine the initial offering post--"Sign up now for a 2017 Late Spring delivery (estimated)".



toph said:


> now that is one MKII i would buy and woudl even wait for


----------



## Chromejob (Jun 18, 2010)

tadman said:


> Anybody ever hear that the Rolex GMT was developed for Pan Am pilots? A lesser known fact is that the Pan Am management could buy a white-dialed GMT. Both had a pepsi-colored bakelite bezel.
> 
> I would love to see a MKII GMT with white dial and bakelite pepsi bezel...


"New Idea?" Not to me. I'm definitely interested.



Thieuster said:


> How nice to see that this keeps coming up. Earlier this year, there was already a thread about this subject and on August 31, I posted this: https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/re-reading-old-post-rolex-pan-am-content-443337.html about the same watch.
> 
> At that time, I suggested the name *Key West*. KW is the founding place of Pan Am and the name of a town is in line with 'Kingston'
> I really like the idea of a 'Pan Am' inspired watch. Come to think about it: given the choice of the Pan Am vs. the Project 300 watch, I would choose the Pan Am. Why? There's nothing like that around and the Project 300 tends to lean towards the Watchco Omegas (pricewise).
> ...


I lobbed a bunch of names around, none seemed to stick:



Chromejob said:


> ... If this is to be a "follow-on" to the Kingston, perhaps a name suggested by Pussy's watch is appropriate. Possible names:
> 
> 
> *Jetstar* (the name of the Lockheed she flew for her boss)
> ...


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

I think there are a lot of really cool names right there. I would be proud to where a GMT with any of them


----------



## 80DGY (Nov 6, 2010)

In! Watching with much interest


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

As promised (thought late) are my dial designs for my person watch. Way not completed but something for you to look at.










The name WINWAR is a sort of family name. My last name means _victor of war_ and my father coined the name WINWAR and we have been using it. I have build a Pam homage with a phantom written WINWAR dial and loved it so I was thinking of adding to the collection
I'm not sure if I would really go with the whole Pan-Am logo/font but thought it was a cool idea and went with the theme of this. Again, this was just beginning design. Not even sure if I will actually build anything.


----------



## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Great design! I am not usually a white dial fan, but it really stands out especially with the cream lume.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Thanks. Me either actually. I am a huge GMT fan and owned one years back. Black face or course but never really cared for the Explorer II look. Until I found the Pan-Am GMT and then that changed. I would still live both but the white (or even a slight cream) would look lovely on this watch.


----------



## Chromejob (Jun 18, 2010)

66Cooper said:


> As promised (thought late) are my dial designs for my person watch. Way not completed but something for you to look at....


Superb, sir.* I like them.* Of course, the legal eagles (pardon the airedale pun) would have to vet the use of the Pan-Am globe on a reproduction. The MK II name would have to go somewhere, similar to what Bill/forum members did with the Kingston. Let me try a few of the names that have been suggested in that font (goes off to download a couple of TTFs)....


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Like I said, these we designs for my personal watch. I was planning to build this on my own. If it was MKII, then the print would be their own. I like the name Key West to go with the Kingston feel. Make it look just like the Kingston but with the GMT add ons. Roulette wheel, open number date wheel, correct bezel and all that. Just imagine how great they would look next to each other in your collection!


----------



## watchman94 (Jan 2, 2011)

Stunning !!


----------



## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Your date wheel will be have to be red. Here is a picture of a very rare white submariner for inspiration:


----------



## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

Here is a photo of a 16710 with an Explorer II dial and handset installed (they use the same movement). Not my watch or photo.


----------



## JDS (Ohio) (Mar 1, 2007)

I hate to admit it, but I am underwhelmed by that mod :think:, eventhough I initially thought an homage to the white dial Pan Am "executive" GMT would be a cool look. Still, *if* (a BIG if) Bill is both interested and able to do a first generation GMT homage as a follow up to the Kingston, I'd bet he would have a black dial as an option; outside of the extremely limited run of Tornek-Rayvilles, I can't recall any Mark II watch that only came in one "flavor", with no options to choose from. 

Come to think of it, that can be a double edged sword: pretty much EVERYone can find a configuration that looks good to them, but it can make choosing only one to order into a real torture session.:-d I had the dickens of a time making my choices on the LRRP and Kingston.

And I have to qualify my opinion of the Explorer/Pepsi GMT modification above too; everyone's tastes are different, and mine are no more valid than another's, so YMMV.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Was the date wheel all red or red/black roulette style?


----------



## Jaimie (Jan 31, 2009)

I know that this is not the right model but it is one white dial watch I have always liked:


----------



## tadman (Mar 7, 2008)

I am a bit underwhelmed too, but the aged lume paint in a tan-beige makes it pop. Also, on line of red text or a red date might make things a little more exciting. I've never thought of myself as a watch designer, but it's all in the detail.


----------



## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Its all in the lume, it needs to contrast against the whiteness of the rest of the dial like this:


----------



## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Kent this one is for you:


----------



## kent (Feb 10, 2008)

thanks. just when i figured i had everything i wanted and needed. the white dials are sure easy to read and make the watch look bigger. i wonder if there is any history behind the white dial subs ?

thanks

kent


----------



## nuovorecord (Nov 27, 2007)

I would be all over this, were Bill to do it. I was seriously bummed about missing out on the Kingston action, but I'm more of a GMT fan anyway, so this would be awesome! If we're voting, I'd go for the white dial version, simply because of the uniqueness of it. Please Bill?


----------



## jsanta19 (Oct 14, 2008)

I have been a fan of MKII watches for a while, even though I dont own any. I think this idea would put me on the intial order for one. I think the name "Key West" would be the best (and a great place would be @ the 6 o'clock area with GMT written underneath and MK II @ the 12 o'clock area). You can avoid the whole rights thing w/ Pan Am and I think it would also be more meaningful for fans of the watch and of Pan Am's history. I think I would go with the white dial, basically because I do not own a white dial as of yet. I wonder if it be 100m or higher rating?


----------



## nuovorecord (Nov 27, 2007)

Is there even an issue with the Pan Am logo anymore, since the company has long since ceased to exist? I think the Pan Am globe would look cool etched into the caseback. Maybe without the words "Pan Am"; just the globe and Mercator lines?


----------



## JamesJackson (Jun 6, 2009)

I think a MKII Pan Am GMT Master homage would be awesome! I'd defiantly be in on that!


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

I started to look into the whole trademark law on that one just to see but stopped due to time. That and i was only making one for myself. The etched caseback is where it is at!! I found a guy that would do one for me in a nice deep etch. You could put the name of the watch in there on the back or the SS number. Anything would look good on it


----------



## Sweep (May 16, 2010)

**Bump**

Whataboutsumthinlikethis:


----------



## Runitout (Aug 19, 2009)

"My God, it's full of stars.."

I would buy that in a heartbeat.


----------



## Jaimie (Jan 31, 2009)

Sweep said:


> Whataboutsumthinlikethis:


That is a very very cool watch. I would love it.


----------



## Sweep (May 16, 2010)

Runitout said:


> "My God, it's full of stars.."
> 
> I would buy that in a heartbeat.


Are you kidding? I would have sex with that watch. Not the crazy Pulp Fiction hiding the watch kinda sex. The other kind.


----------



## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

Sweep said:


> Are you kidding? I would have sex with that watch. Not the crazy Pulp Fiction hiding the watch kinda sex. The other kind.


Well, it is an auto so that's one way to wind it.

Remind me not to buy anything from you on the sales forum!


----------



## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Normally, I'd be very very interested in this project. However, I have a problem with the GMT movements typically available in the standard ETA calibers (modified 2836 or 2892/3). In such movements it's the GMT hand that is independently adjustable, not the hour hand like on a Rolex or Omega (among others). To my mind, the 12 hour hand and date should track local time and date, with the 24 hour hand serving as an unchanging pointer on Zulu time (or home time if you want to set it that way). That way, when you travel, you move the 12 hour hand forward or backward (depending on direction) and never have to hack or stop the movement. Now, obviously, many people don't mind having GMT movements which are the other way around (24-hour hand independently adjustable) but for me, my introduction to GMT movements was through reading the manuals of omega GMT watches and I got stuck on thinking that GMT movements should have independent 12-hour hands.

Still, looking at sweeps picture and imagining it with a kingston dial + updated sapphire bezel is pretty sweet regardless of the movement.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Yep, that is what the watch would look like. Combine the AMAZING looks of the original with the more modern style case and bracelet of the Kingston, throw in a sapphire bezel, a roulette date wheel, and a possible black or white/off white dial and we have a winner by!


----------



## messenius (Aug 16, 2007)

I wote for acrylic insert, but is seems that Bill has had bad experiences with acrylic...


----------



## nuovorecord (Nov 27, 2007)

enkidu said:


> Normally, I'd be very very interested in this project. However, I have a problem with the GMT movements typically available in the standard ETA calibers (modified 2836 or 2892/3). In such movements it's the GMT hand that is independently adjustable, not the hour hand like on a Rolex or Omega (among others). To my mind, the 12 hour hand and date should track local time and date, with the 24 hour hand serving as an unchanging pointer on Zulu time (or home time if you want to set it that way). That way, when you travel, you move the 12 hour hand forward or backward (depending on direction) and never have to hack or stop the movement. Now, obviously, many people don't mind having GMT movements which are the other way around (24-hour hand independently adjustable) but for me, my introduction to GMT movements was through reading the manuals of omega GMT watches and I got stuck on thinking that GMT movements should have independent 12-hour hands.
> 
> Still, looking at sweeps picture and imagining it with a kingston dial + updated sapphire bezel is pretty sweet regardless of the movement.


So I stopped in a high-end jewelery store today and was looking at Ulysse Nardin watches. They had a GMT with a jumping hour hand, a la Rolex, that used an ETA movement, though it's named the UN-24, since it's been modified by the manufacturer. Looks like it's based on an ETA 2892-A2. The UN used push buttons to move the hour hand forward and back, but it seems possible to do the same thing via the crown.

So, theoretically, it's possible to have the same type of GMT function as Rolex using an ETA. I'm no watchmaker, so feel free to point out why this wouldn't work.


----------



## messenius (Aug 16, 2007)

I think Eta has done it, but they have patended it and as a part of Swatch group they only supply it to brands inside Swatch. So you would have to find another way to make jumping hour movement with out braking the patent. And I can imagine that it's not easy or cheap to do it as no one had done it yet.


----------



## nuovorecord (Nov 27, 2007)

messenius said:


> I think Eta has done it, but they have patended it and as a part of Swatch group they only supply it to brands inside Swatch. So you would have to find another way to make jumping hour movement with out braking the patent. And I can imagine that it's not easy or cheap to do it as no one had done it yet.


Since UN isn't a Swatch Group brand, based on a quick perusal of Swatch's website, they must have figured out a way to do it. But whatever the answer is, I'm not sure I'd be interested in a MkII if the price tag was going to be up where the UN's was.


----------



## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

You don't have to have a jumping hour hand. My GMT Master is the old style (not a GMT Master II) and the 24 hour hand is tied to the regular hour hand, it is not independantly adjustable. Instead of 3 time zones it only tracks 2 time zones. That is fine by me, I can still track a 2nd time zone using the bezel and I'd rather have the quickset date anyway, which I don't think is available on the GMT that has the hour hand that jumps. I have never needed to track three time zones but the quickset date comes in handy a couple of times per month.


----------



## messenius (Aug 16, 2007)

nuovorecord said:


> Since UN isn't a Swatch Group brand, based on a quick perusal of Swatch's website, they must have figured out a way to do it. But whatever the answer is, I'm not sure I'd be interested in a MkII if the price tag was going to be up where the UN's was.


I thought the question was about jumping hour hand via crown and as you stated UN does this by extra push button (like some tudor models also). So the solution is quite different.

For the best of my knowledge in rolex gmt and omega versions (and some others) all this is done via crown while still having the quickset date.


----------



## nuovorecord (Nov 27, 2007)

messenius said:


> I thought the question was about jumping hour hand via crown and as you stated UN does this by extra push button (like some tudor models also). So the solution is quite different.
> 
> For the best of my knowledge in rolex gmt and omega versions (and some others) all this is done via crown while still having the quickset date.


What I'm just wondering is that if the ETA movement has the capability to jump the hour hand via push button, would it be possible for the same movement to be able to jump the hand via the crown? Sorry I wasn't more clear in my previous post.


----------



## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

I agree that 2 time zones is plenty. If you need to know more, look at your cell or computer Quick-set date is way more useful.


----------



## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Or if you have deep pockets get a GP World Timer:


----------

