# What's going on with Grand Seiko/Seiko pricing?



## DucatiWiz (Aug 7, 2019)

A couple of new watches have caught my attention and then made me raise an eyebrow when I've looked at the price. Take for instance the Seiko Prospex LX GMT. Really nice GMT with Spring Drive, except that at £4950, it's only 10% cheaper than a Grand Seiko SBGE201 or SBGE245 GMT, which not only have the prestige of being a Grand Seiko, but also come with an extra year warranty and double the water resistance (despite not having the "professional" tag). And of course, that's RRP, on the street the Grand Seiko can actually be found cheaper. Then there is the new Grand Seiko SBGE248 - which is a very handsome blue dial version of the SBGE201/245 and comes furnished with a gold bezel and crown. On an Omega Seamaster, a gold bezel and crown add around £1300 to the cost (see here and here), but on the SBGE245, it adds a whopping £5600! That's more than double the price of the steel bezel watch!

I begin to wonder if GS/S see a sinkhole left by steel-sports Rolexes as something that could be filled with more expensive Japanese options :think:.


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

Like Rolex and others, their pricing has gotten into ridiculous levels.......


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## maddizm (Nov 21, 2018)

I think they're catching the "overflow." People can't get sports Rolex's so Grand Seiko is one of the next brands to get eyes and wallets.


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## jandrese (May 11, 2009)

GS and core Seiko discussed their pricing strategy almost 10 years ago. Generally, it is to go up. This is well known and has been discussed/lamented ad nauseum. GS quality is up but core Seiko quality is up every more as exemplified by the new Prospex models. Prices are up. That's what they want and we are getting something for it.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

I would argue that quality has gone up. I would say that the quality is still the same as before, which was high. There have been no major product upgrades to justify the price increases, just some minor tweaks to existing things. They are selling the same goods just for more money.

If they're goal is to compete successfully against Richmont up to and including JLC grade then they are a success. But I'd like to know what kind of success it is if your target had to destroy 1/2 Billion USD in goods to maintain "exclusivity". I think that's not the best target. They need new product if they want to raise prices to Rolex and Omega and perhaps beyond levels. It's painful to watch, I think they are setting themselves up for some costly disastet.


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## Ray916MN (Feb 11, 2006)

As best as I can tell you're seeing the effects of Seiko going up market. Raising Prospex prices while raising Grand Seiko prices. There is some overlap in the middle as Seiko phases out its' older line of GS sportwatches while introducing nicer higher priced Prospex pieces. The plan seems to be to first introduce nicer more expensive Prospex pieces. Whereas Prospex buyers used to see the SBDX001 (MM300) as a premium model at $2K, the current Prospex premium models are $5K Eventually, I think you'll soon see the current GS sport models dropped and replaced by much more expensive models.


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## Timeless: Now WoS (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the more useful question is not why the prices are rising, but why they were so low relative to their perceived competition to begin with.

I'd also add that some of the price increases that are being perceived are more the product of adding newer higher end models, not eliminating the affordable ones. It's true that Seiko (specifically Prospex and Presage) and GS are releasing new, higher-end models, but most of the existing models have remained an excellent value. In some ways, GS is actually much more affordable than it used to be. For instance, around 2013, an SBGA011 cost $7,200 (if my memory is reliable, anyway), but today, the SBGA211 costs $5,800. The SBGH001 is exactly the same with its own price drop, just to name two of the most popular watches that have been with us long enough to see substantial price drops.


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## Ray916MN (Feb 11, 2006)

Timeless Luxury Watches said:


> I think the more useful question is not why the prices are rising, but why they were so low relative to their perceived competition to begin with.


Age old pricing strategy to develop a legend. Introduce a compelling product at a compelling price with the intent of causing demand to outstrip supply. When demand outstrips supply, you heighten the desirability of your product. Unmet desire makes it easy to hike prices. This approach also helps establish a retail channel which is less prone to discount (why discount if you don't need to) and healthier margins help encourage retailers to push your product. Having retailers push your product is key to getting market acceptance of a "new" brand.


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## Dan GSR (Jun 28, 2011)

they are positioning themselves to go up market
no other reason to discontinue the SKX


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## Timeless: Now WoS (Jan 18, 2010)

Ray916MN said:


> Age old pricing strategy to develop a legend. Introduce a compelling product at a compelling price with the intent of causing demand to outstrip supply. When demand outstrips supply, you heighten the desirability of your product. Unmet desire makes it easy to hike prices. This approach also helps establish a retail channel which is less prone to discount (why discount if you don't need to) and healthier margins help encourage retailers to push your product. Having retailers push your product is key to getting market acceptance of a "new" brand.


I'm going to have to ask you to trust me on this one (although you don't have to, of course). When GS first came to America, it had nothing akin to some cynical, far-reaching strategy to induce American desire for the brand. The plan was to start offering models, very reluctantly, to a few US dealers, keep making good watches, and then hope it all works itself out. If there was some sort of long-term plan to manufacture a legend in America, I wasn't let in on it (and I would have been let in on it). I have never detected a hint of cynicism from GS, even now, with a much more savvy approach to Western marketing tactics. Keep in mind that prices have largely decreased from Grand Seiko, not increased. Prices on some iconic models today are still much lower today than they were 6 or 7 years ago.

Historically, Grand Seiko was essentially an effort to prove to the Japanese market that Seikos could compete with imported watches from Switzerland and America. The idea was not necessarily to produce a ton of revenue by selling GSes, but rather, to use GSes to sell mainstream models. It was a "halo brand," if you will.

But these days, Seiko's got nothing left to prove. Year after year, Seiko remains one of the top watch companies in the world in terms of revenue. Mission accomplished, I suspect that GS transitioned into its current role (complete with minor rebranding) wherein GS was no longer intended to increase sales of affordable watches, but rather, to succeed on its own. The rebranding itself has quite a lot of evidence for this case, as it puts more distance between GS and other Seikos, which would be undesirable if you need GS to raise those models up.

That is to say, more expensive models are being produced, I would speculate, because people buy them. GS has done such a good job of reaching audiences that the brand recognition has skyrocketed, and there is sufficient demand for newer, high-end pieces from affluent GS fans that it's become worthwhile to make them. The audience for GS expanded, and in that new audience there exists more than a handful of wealthy individuals who would like to have alternatives to the currently available high-end watches they can pick from.

The important point is that GS has not abandoned its base in this effort. Those iconic pieces, like the Snowflake, aren't shooting up in price (and they totally could, we're often backordered on them), for instance. The existing, core GS audience, like me, is not being priced out.


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## Ray916MN (Feb 11, 2006)

Timeless Luxury Watches said:


> I'm going to have to ask you to trust me on this one (although you don't have to, of course). When GS first came to America, it had nothing akin to some cynical, far-reaching strategy to induce American desire for the brand. The plan was to start offering models, very reluctantly, to a few US dealers, keep making good watches, and then hope it all works itself out. If there was some sort of long-term plan to manufacture a legend in America, I wasn't let in on it (and I would have been let in on it). I have never detected a hint of cynicism from GS, even now, with a much more savvy approach to Western marketing tactics. Keep in mind that prices have largely decreased from Grand Seiko, not increased. Prices on some iconic models today are still much lower today than they were 6 or 7 years ago.
> 
> Historically, Grand Seiko was essentially an effort to prove to the Japanese market that Seikos could compete with imported watches from Switzerland and America. The idea was not necessarily to produce a ton of revenue by selling GSes, but rather, to use GSes to sell mainstream models. It was a "halo brand," if you will.
> 
> ...


There is nothing implicitly American about the pricing strategy of starting low so you can go high later. The prime examples of Japanese companies creating legends using this strategy are Datsun/Nissan with the introduction of the 240Z, Mazda with the introduction of the RX7 folowed by the Miata and Honda with the introduction of the S2000. In all cases, the value proposition they offered caused demand to outstrip supply with the market snapping up everything that was available and showing a willingness to pay a premium over retail. There is nothing new, with this approach, cynical with it or anything else. It is a proven approach that has been employed by many Japanese companies in many areas.

In 2012 JPY to USD was ~78. Today JPY to USD is 108. You sure things are cheaper when the difference in exchange rates is considered?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

For what you get a GS is a bargain...wish they'd go to 5-year warranty. Otherwise, its an amazing piece for the price.


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## Timeless: Now WoS (Jan 18, 2010)

LARufCTR said:


> For what you get a GS is a bargain...wish they'd go to 5-year warranty. Otherwise, its an amazing piece for the price.


The warranty situation is getting more competitive, to the benefit of consumers, that's for sure. On the other hand, you've got some major players still on a 2-year warranty.

If you do want a GS with a five year warranty though, all of our new GSes have a five year warranty (the manufacture's warranty + 2 years of TLW's warranty that has the same terms as GS' warranty). Our pre-owned GSes come with a two year TLW warranty too.


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## Alex_TA (May 7, 2013)

Rolex leads the way with the endless price hikes and low inventory. Other companies are running after losing their pants.
When this bubble will eventually burst it will burst for everyone. Meanwhile, there are brands that still make a good product at reasonable prices.

Sorry, I can't imagine long lines of customers rushing to buy SNR029 for $6K or SBGC231 for $13K.


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## HiggsBoson (Oct 12, 2009)

I suppose, that along with other prestige brands, they consider the buyers of these watches wealthy enough, to be able to afford these price rises. :think:
Ten years ago Omega were a great value alternative to Rolex. Now, they are of equivalent price and, in my opinion, not such good value. (If we can use the term, 'value' when talking about 'luxury' watches. ;-)
Grand Seiko will, probably, continue increasing their prices to Rolex/Omega territory too.
I suppose it's all dependent on what we, as customers, can stomach!


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

Yes, there are plenty of pieces way out of my price range and definitely some Seiko pieces in particular with price tags that I cannot help but scratch my head at, but I feel a lot of it is just hyperbolic rhetoric. As I’ve said over and over again in numerous threads, GSs core lineup is still an absolute bargain and the prices have not risen, but people always seem to focus on overpriced LE releases. Yes, they’re overpriced generally (although not always, I mean the Timeless LE seems fair to me for a LE amongst some others), but that is the nature of the beast. All LEs, no matter the brand, are overpriced and they’re designed with collectors and aficionados in mind, not the dude scraping together his savings to buy his first big watch. 

I think the flood of LE releases has damaged GSs (and even more so Seiko’s) image amongst fans and the general WIS community and helped fuel speculation that GS prices are on the rise and will soon alienate most buyers. Luckily watch nerds make up a very small segment of the market, so it doesn’t matter that much in terms of sales for them, but still it is kind of sad to see. As for your comparison with the Omega...come on. They’re not really in the same league in terms of finish, so I’m not sure how well price hikes between the 2 brands work. But either way, I would agree it is overpriced and I wouldn’t pay that kind of money, but don’t conflate it with GS’s core collection and the value that exists there.

As for Seiko, there is no denying that they are making some big changes and some prices are on the rise, but there are also plenty of bargains to be had. Turtles, Samurais, Baby Tunas, SARXs, Seiko 5s, etc., but then the focus on WUS seems to be to wait for a LE to come out and then jump up and scream, “Told you so! Told you so! There they go again trying to drive us to the poor house!” Yes, plenty of those LEs are outrageous, but so what. You’re not going to buy them and they weren’t intended for you anyway, and more importantly they’re not an accurate reflection of Seiko prices, so don’t allow them to obfuscate that.

As for the LX lineup you referenced, I’m going to say something a bit unpopular and that is I don’t think they’re necessarily as outrageously overpriced as people make them out to be. Okay, so this puts the diver in Omega SMP territory. I don’t know, I feel like it not only compares well, but even comes out on top. By far superior finishing, more coherent and historically interesting design, and a better and more accurate movement. Yes, it is a beast and the SMP is going to wear a bit better for many, but when you put the two side by side and compare what you get, it isn’t that outrageous and even seems reasonable if it is in the ballpark of what the SMP is going for...but you rarely hear people bemoaning the prices of SMPs over and over again on one thread after another. Now would I pay that price? Hell no. Again, I’m just saying I feel the rhetoric surrounding it is just over the top.

But yes, you’re right about brand confusion. I feel like they put enough work into the LX line to at least make an argument for the higher prices (they’re pretty much GS’s minus the Grand on the dial), but I agree that it certainly makes things confusing. If they would’ve just put GS on the dial, no one would’ve batted an eye at the price, but as it stands Seiko is supposed to sit comfortably below GS, or at least that is the way most people see it, and there shouldn’t be any overlap in prices or quality, but Seiko definitely seems to think otherwise.


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## Overwound (May 15, 2013)

I'm confused by the cost of the new handwind spring drive watches. Why do they have something like a SBGA283 retail for $3800 and one of the new SBGK007 and SBGK009 are $6900 and $7700 respectively? 

Am I missing something important aside from inflated pricing?


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

Only to us WIS does a GS have the weight of the name it carries - to the average man in the street it is “just” another Seiko.


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## jandrese (May 11, 2009)

Once again, GS and core Seiko have laid their strategy bare going back about a decade. GS is still a bargain in many ways for many models and the LE thing is SOP for GS/Seiko. We are just beginning to wrap our heads around a practices of a company from a different culture. They don't always behave as expected but the quality is always there.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/seiko-moves-upmarket-and-doubles-down-on-american-watch-buyers/
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/grand-seiko-united-states-move-upmarket
https://fortune.com/2018/12/11/grand-seikos-grand-plan-to-win-over-western-watch-lovers/
https://www.ft.com/content/29044de2-26bf-11e3-9dc0-00144feab7de
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...seiko-wants-to-ditch-the-discount-brand-image
https://www.watchtime.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/WT_Spotlight_Seiko_fin.pdf
https://www.seiko.co.jp/en/csr/report/images/SEIKO_CSR_2015_en.pdf


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Overwound said:


> I'm confused by the cost of the new handwind spring drive watches. Why do they have something like a SBGA283 retail for $3800 and one of the new SBGK007 and SBGK009 are $6900 and $7700 respectively?
> 
> Am I missing something important aside from inflated pricing?


Aside from the new movement and new techniques in finishing like the "orange peel-less" zaratsu developed for these (not to mention new curved saphire, hands, dial, etc.)? They don't do enough to talk about their advancements and justifying their prices sometimes, I'll give you that, but the answers are there, you just unfortunately have to work to find them (which you shouldn't have to).


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## Overwound (May 15, 2013)

ahonobaka said:


> Aside from the new movement and new techniques in finishing like the "orange peel-less" zaratsu developed for these (not to mention new curved saphire, hands, dial, etc.)? They don't do enough to talk about their advancements and justifying their prices sometimes, I'll give you that, but the answers are there, you just unfortunately have to work to find them (which you shouldn't have to).


Thank you for the information!


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

I’d much rather like to know why my income hasn’t increased at an equal or greater rate than luxury watch prices have.


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## dwalby (Jun 25, 2018)

T1meout said:


> I'd much rather like to know why my income hasn't increased at an equal or greater rate than luxury watch prices have.


I think its because the Chinese and other emerging economies have found an interest in various luxury items over the last few decades, and that spike in demand has driven the prices up far beyond the normal rate of inflation. But, you can still find a lot of watch for under $1000 if you aren't worried about the brand name on the dial.

Ya gotta ask yourself though, if you can buy a near-perfect Rolex knock-off for $400 or so, with replicated movement and all, then what is that extra $10k really buying you?


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

ahonobaka said:


> Overwound said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused by the cost of the new handwind spring drive watches. Why do they have something like a SBGA283 retail for $3800 and one of the new SBGK007 and SBGK009 are $6900 and $7700 respectively?
> ...


Better polishing and a slightly different crystal with modest movement changes is not worth 3K USD in pricing, sorry. I actually love this brand, which is why I am pained to see this. They are taking a page from a soon to be obsolete page of the Swiss playbook that takes advantage of the fact that there has been a large clientele that are happy to spend huge amounts of money on watches that are very shiny but of no substance. As long as it makes them feel self important it's ok. Even Rolex and Omega, which have better movements than Seiko, and are part of the forefront of this, are pushing an envelope that will bite them. For Seiko to price with them is madness, and undercuts the substance they do bring to the table.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

palletwheel said:


> ahonobaka said:
> 
> 
> > Overwound said:
> ...


Prices are absurd across the board these days, but considering the list of improvements/changes that ahonobaka outlined, it doesn't seem that out of line at all compared to the pricing strategies of its competitors. Pretty much par for the course these days, except the new polishing techniques and movement seem more significant than what you normally get in my opinion.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> [Prices are absurd across the board these days, but considering the list of improvements/changes that ahonobaka outlined, it doesn't seem that out of line at all compared to the pricing strategies of its competitors. Pretty much par for the course these days, except the new polishing techniques and movement seem more significant than what you normally get in my opinion.


Yes I agree prices for watches across the board are absurd but does that mean one should follow the leader off the cliff? Let's be specific. SBGK007 at 6,900 USD list is more than this Omega Tresor at 6,500 USD list:

https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/...axial-master-chronometer-40-mm-43513402103001

The movement in the Seiko is flat out inferior in time keeping and magnetic resistance to the Omega, which has a METAS certified 8910 calibre. The Omega also has an 18K dial marker and hand set. The quality of Omega finishing is very high all around. Even with the power reserve should the Seiko be 400 USD more than the Omega? To understand this better we can compare with this Omega De Ville Prestige which is 4,950 USD:

https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/...co-axial-power-reserve-39-5-mm-42413402101001

This uses a 2627 calibre, COSC rated, and has a power reserve feature. It is 1,550 less than the Tresor, since the movement is based on the old 2500 series base calibre. Should the Seiko cost 1,950 USD more? I will add that at least in terms of time keeping the Omega is better than the Seiko in that regard (full disclosure, I had a Aqua Terra with a 2500 that stayed flat, 0spd, for 5 years with a little bit of nightly positioning).

GS was a niche brand supported by customers because, despite Omega and other brands being better time keepers with more "prestige", brought to the table a high quality charm, decent on the wrist accuracy, at a price that made it possible to ignore the deficits. A SBGK007 at 6,900 USD blows that out of the water. If that isn't forgetting your base, I don't know what is.


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

palletwheel said:


> Yes I agree prices for watches across the board are absurd but does that mean one should follow the leader off the cliff? Let's be specific. SBGK007 at 6,900 USD list is more than this Omega Tresor at 6,500 USD list:
> 
> https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/...axial-master-chronometer-40-mm-43513402103001
> 
> ...


This all makes sense on paper but personally I'm not a cross shopper or spec-comper; Frankly I didn't even know that Tresor existed. I'd still buy the GS knowing all that you've listed between the two and it's purely on looks and emotion/charm whereas the Omega leaves me feeling cold. Is it hand finished? Not a defense of GS per se, but my point is that not everyone cares about all that (in fact, I'd wager a majority of the buying public don't) and we have a tendency to think enthusiasts make up the entire market (we don't).

Perhaps you need a tour of GS facilities to sort you out. It'll all make sense then ? You need to see the level of craft and dedication and the years that go into things like "a change in polishing technique". And who's doing it; put a name to a face to a blue hand and so on. Yes, it'll all make sense then!


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## ahonobaka (Jan 27, 2017)

Ah forgot to mention, I know it’s easy to be data driven and compare specs against Swiss “equivalents” but that’s exactly the trap you need to avoid when thinking about GS. It is a uniquely Japanese brand with their own individual approach and identity to watch making. Don’t mean to be preachy but I find this to be the main root of everyone’s issues with the brand.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

ahonobaka said:


> Ah forgot to mention, I know it's easy to be data driven and compare specs against Swiss "equivalents" but that's exactly the trap you need to avoid when thinking about GS. It is a uniquely Japanese brand with their own individual approach and identity to watch making. Don't mean to be preachy but I find this to be the main root of everyone's issues with the brand.


I do want you to know that I do appreciate it, which is probably why I put so much energy into these posts. But my point is that while perhaps for some of us the charms of the brand may be price insensitive, I think for the larger majority there is a price point beyond which that charm just won't carry the day. We live in a world now where the majority of the people don't even wear a watch, so I don't see this as sustainable. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see. Personally speaking I have a hard time bringing myself to spend that kind of money on either the SBGK007 or the Omega Tresor. I love both brands actually but for a manually wound stainless steel 3 hander, no matter how good, I think their pricing has become insane. And I always thought of Seiko as the place to go to escape that sort of insanity.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

palletwheel said:


> Mr.Jones82 said:
> 
> 
> > [Prices are absurd across the board these days, but considering the list of improvements/changes that ahonobaka outlined, it doesn't seem that out of line at all compared to the pricing strategies of its competitors. Pretty much par for the course these days, except the new polishing techniques and movement seem more significant than what you normally get in my opinion.
> ...


I would absolutely pay 400 more than the Omega. I had to read that again to make sure you wrote that correctly. What does $400 really mean when you are at that price point? We aren't talking about buying a Mido on the gray market here.

As for the De Ville, I would absolutely never buy a watch with the 2500. I've heard horror stories.

But ultimately I find spec comparisons tiresome as stated above. I own an AT and I've owned numerous GSs and still own a couple now, and they're both great in many respects, but in the end I have always felt more comfortable with what I can get from GS for +5k as opposed to Omega, but when you're spending this kind of money there really isn't a whole lot of rationality involved either way. The rationality comes after the fact when you're looking at your bank account and trying to figure out how to justify why it is suddenly lighter by +5k.


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## dwalby (Jun 25, 2018)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> when you're spending this kind of money there really isn't a whole lot of rationality involved either way.


true dat. Look at what you get for the $700 street price of your VHP, then see what you get for 10x the price, its not really 10x the watch.


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## Domo (Sep 20, 2013)

As the sponsor has mentioned, prices have remained more or less the same. I think the perception that prices are going up (which I share) is two fold
1. They're making more and more "showpiece" models with ceramics and whatnot which naturally are priced very high
2. A good portion of the new and exciting and desirable watches _are_ the showpiece models, while, aside from the rebranding, the core collection is getting a bit stagnant in the designs available and hence more easily overlooked.


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## DucatiWiz (Aug 7, 2019)

ahonobaka said:


> This all makes sense on paper but personally I'm not a cross shopper or spec-comper; Frankly I didn't even know that Tresor existed. I'd still buy the GS knowing all that you've listed between the two and it's purely on looks and emotion/charm whereas the Omega leaves me feeling cold. Is it hand finished? Not a defense of GS per se, but my point is that not everyone cares about all that (in fact, I'd wager a majority of the buying public don't) and we have a tendency to think enthusiasts make up the entire market (we don't).
> 
> Perhaps you need a tour of GS facilities to sort you out. It'll all make sense then �� You need to see the level of craft and dedication and the years that go into things like "a change in polishing technique". And who's doing it; put a name to a face to a blue hand and so on. Yes, it'll all make sense then!


I find it hard not to agree with all of this. I think that despite being a better watch than many other brands on paper, Omega's marketing strategy has slightly cheapened the brand. There was a time when they were considered as of much as a status symbol as Rolex and were more popular in some countries; remember that in the 50's, a Constellation was more expensive than a Day-Date! Their downfall (by that I mean that they have been less successful then Rolex since the mid 60's) I credit to them launching so many models in so many variations that they lost some identity. There is real structure and logic to the Rolex line, which gives them a timeless look that is very appealing when buying an heirloom quality/priced watch. The Seamaster is objectively better than a Submariner, but if you're buying on objectivity alone, you can be sure that very soon Omega will bring out a revised model or variation that will make the one you own feel objectively worse.

GS's advantage over Omega (aside from Spring Drive) is the amount of hand workmanship that goes into each one. They don't cut patterns on their dial faces with a robot laser like Omega do and even after the extraordinary finish on the case has long faded, the even more extraordinary dials, with hand-polished and applied furniture, will still give evidence of where some of your money went. Omega's high-profile advertising campagnas and sponsorship deals make me feel like a large percentage of my hard-earned is wafted away to branding rather than actually paying someone to make something for me.

If GS could make up their mind where their range is going and bring some proper structure to it like Rolex have, I think it would do wonders for them. In the meantime, some of their models still seem to offer amazing value for money. Take the previously mentioned SBGE201 for instance. It can be found new online for $4,620. I cannot think of any other steel sports GMT that comes close to that value even on paper. It's a "true" GMT, with 200m water resistance and an extraordinary 72hr PR inhouse movement. Add to that a degree of hand finishing not found in watches double or even triple the price and I'm left wondering what the competition is...


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## westcoastco (Apr 10, 2016)

palletwheel said:


> Yes I agree prices for watches across the board are absurd but does that mean one should follow the leader off the cliff? Let's be specific. SBGK007 at 6,900 USD list is more than this Omega Tresor at 6,500 USD list:
> 
> https://www.omegawatches.com/en-us/...axial-master-chronometer-40-mm-43513402103001
> 
> ...


Recently Hodinkee did a week on the wrist with SBGK005 and as one of the comparables they used the Omega De Ville Tresor. When they mentioned that the Omega was cheaper, I had to read that twice in disbelief. The SBGK00 series are chunky little watches with idiosyncratic (and IMO slightly ugly) dials and movements that don't hold a candle to a co-axial in terms of timekeeping. In this case I feel that GS is overreaching with their pricing.

Although, as some of you have said, Omega is not doing great having raised prices themselves, and De Ville is among their leas popular lines, so GS is probably just riding the watch blog publicity and enthusiast attention right now.

Even so, the recent Godzilla LE looked grossly overpriced for what it is - even if you compare it internally with the GS releases from Basel 2019.


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

the big issue is you can get GS with huge discount in most Asia counties other than Japan
and another issue is once the list price in Japan is set never change during the model's life time...not like Swiss brand even same model the list price still can go up ...
for these reasons I wont touch most of GS/Seiko ...in case I need to sell them to get cash flow
otherwise I need to a huge loss on reselling them....


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## greent54 (Apr 7, 2018)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Yes, there are plenty of pieces way out of my price range and definitely some Seiko pieces in particular with price tags that I cannot help but scratch my head at, but I feel a lot of it is just hyperbolic rhetoric. As I've said over and over again in numerous threads, GSs core lineup is still an absolute bargain and the prices have not risen, but people always seem to focus on overpriced LE releases. Yes, they're overpriced generally (although not always, I mean the Timeless LE seems fair to me for a LE amongst some others), but that is the nature of the beast. All LEs, no matter the brand, are overpriced and they're designed with collectors and aficionados in mind, not the dude scraping together his savings to buy his first big watch.
> 
> I think the flood of LE releases has damaged GSs (and even more so Seiko's) image amongst fans and the general WIS community and helped fuel speculation that GS prices are on the rise and will soon alienate most buyers. Luckily watch nerds make up a very small segment of the market, so it doesn't matter that much in terms of sales for them, but still it is kind of sad to see. As for your comparison with the Omega...come on. They're not really in the same league in terms of finish, so I'm not sure how well price hikes between the 2 brands work. But either way, I would agree it is overpriced and I wouldn't pay that kind of money, but don't conflate it with GS's core collection and the value that exists there.
> 
> ...


The Seiko LX PROSPEX Spring Drive is better than the Omega seamaster line have both watches

And that is the truth don't Believe the Hype

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


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## De Wolfe (Jul 23, 2015)

Is it worth it or not, same can be said to different brands.

Why price increase? Profits off course, in addition to many other factors that can be involved, such as the increase in marketing, and/or raising GS price ceiling to let Seiko's increase as well.

I have 1 GS, and its the GS I said I would buy if they made it, they did, and I have it now.


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## journeyforce (Apr 20, 2013)

I find Grand Seiko prices to be reasonable.

I have come across an interesting thing today. I went into the local Grand Seiko AD near me with the idea to buy a Grand Seiko from their Heritage Collection. I was thinking simple quartz 3 hander. 

I discovered that the that the Limited Edition GMT quartz SBGN009 is selling for an MSRP of $3000. However the 40mm 3 hander quartz Grand Seiko model SBGV205 is $3100. How is it that a GMT model is $100 less then a run of the mill 3 hander?

I think the best value one is the SBGN009 GMT

As for me, I decided to buy the SBGX261


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## koolpep (Jul 14, 2008)

Totally agree with you SGBN009 is an amazing deal. I heard from the AD that stocks are selling out, which is good to know. I got it at a discount and paid new around $2,695 as our AD tries to push this brand into the lime light. I had the SBGX261 before and loved it too, but couldn't justify two 9F in the collection, so sold it into good hands.

It's a stunning watch.....with a dial that alternates between nearly black to shiny blue.


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## berni29 (Sep 8, 2007)

journeyforce said:


> I find Grand Seiko prices to be reasonable.
> 
> I have come across an interesting thing today. I went into the local Grand Seiko AD near me with the idea to buy a Grand Seiko from their Heritage Collection. I was thinking simple quartz 3 hander.
> 
> ...


Hi there, I agree that the SBGN009 is good value (I have the 007) but the SBGV005 is quite different and has the 44GS case. Against the similar SBGA373 (which I also have) the 205 is good value also.

It depends on your perspective.

Berni

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

berni29 said:


> journeyforce said:
> 
> 
> > I find Grand Seiko prices to be reasonable.
> ...


^^^Exactly.

Also, the dial is one of the most labor intensive dials they make involving a 12 step process. I see where one might wonder how it could cost more than a GMT, but once you look into it a bit more you realize it isn't just another 3 hander.


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## MisterWatchGuy (Jan 4, 2018)

GS has finally got some good marketing and reaching broader audiences because of luxury watch digital media blowing up lately (especially the new releases/limited editions), so the demand for their newer models has gone up. A few pieces have even held value or appreciated from their 20th anniversary 9S collection.


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

MisterWatchGuy said:


> GS has finally got some good marketing and reaching broader audiences because of luxury watch digital media blowing up lately (especially the new releases/limited editions), so the demand for their newer models has gone up. A few pieces have even held value or appreciated from their 20th anniversary 9S collection.


"Resell Value" that's GS/Seiko weakest point ....unless it's discontinued or limited models 
another one is global pricing/discount
I got 24% off (local list price) for my GS limited quartz diver


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

TCWU said:


> MisterWatchGuy said:
> 
> 
> > GS has finally got some good marketing and reaching broader audiences because of luxury watch digital media blowing up lately (especially the new releases/limited editions), so the demand for their newer models has gone up. A few pieces have even held value or appreciated from their 20th anniversary 9S collection.
> ...


Again, the resale is comparable to any other brand excluding Rolex, PP, and AP. And like most other brands, the resale value differs from model to model due to demand. The 9f GMT's resale value is great, whereas the SBGRs is generally rather poor.
I find the resale comments tired and inaccurate personally; just another unsubstantiated knee jerk comment recycled across forums. I'm not sure why GS has to be measured by this double standard.


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

my first Seiko way back to 2008 SBDX001 and find out no list price change 
I like Seiko watches but I love my money more
The resell value is key factor for me...
not every one treat their watches as watches ...it's an asset to me
GS/Seiko unique pricing never adjust list price in Japan Yen...is a big no no for me
you always can get regular models at list price why bother to buy it now? 
I only go for limited editions ..that's only way I can make a little extra money if I am lucky
I doubled my money on one Seiko SLA model and I still have one left
After I got my first GS I think it's time to quit
If I want to make money I should buy stocks not watches...too risky
Will sell my other SLA limited Seiko watches (all NOS) next year...


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

I also found out I can get most GS/Seiko watches cheaper oversea...even I have to pay tax on it (I live in USA)
the only exception is SLA019/SLA025
I got a very decent discount from one of sponsors here ....and it's cheaper than outside USA..

SBGA211
Oversea price (Taiwan)
http://www.grand-seiko.tw/product.php?id=20
NT195000 (like $6290 USD)

Hong Kong
https://www.thongsia.com.hk/zh-hant/grand_seiko/collections/product/41/343/
HK43000 (like $5485 USD)

US price
https://www.grand-seiko.com/us-en/collections/sbga211g

Taiwan's price based on exchange rate is like $6,290 USD which is higher than US list $5,800 
and in Japan its 620,000 円＋税....like 682000 yen like 6,270 USD (with 10% tax)

Taiwan 6290
HK 5485
Japan 6270
USA 5800

now it's the tricky part...discount
I would say if you can get 10% off no tax in USA you are lucky?
In Taiwan based on the website forum you are average if you are only getting 20% off
In Japan it's vary some big chain stores has all kind of coupons/promotion plus no tax if you are a foreigner with valid passport (non-limited)
Don't know the discount in HK

I like this watch very much but I won't buy it because you always can get a new one at regular price and price won't change even 5 years later...
only exchange rate change (to USD)

so far this is the only brand did not adjust their list price 
I have been buying watches almost 20 years as an individual ...any one knows any other brand like GS/Seiko never change the list price (in Japan)


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## greent54 (Apr 7, 2018)

TCWU said:


> I also found out I can get most GS/Seiko watches cheaper oversea...even I have to pay tax on it (I live in USA)
> the only exception is SLA019/SLA025
> I got a very decent discount from one of sponsors here ....and it's cheaper than outside USA..
> 
> ...


After wearing Grand Seiko the other watch the Seamaster Omega is just too uncomfortable and heavy on the wrist sticking with Grand Seiko with the much better movement the Spring Drive

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

greent54 said:


> After wearing Grand Seiko the other watch the Seamaster Omega is just too uncomfortable and heavy on the wrist sticking with Grand Seiko with the much better movement the Spring Drive
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


I used to have Seiko SBDB001 spring drive diver 600M
I like it the only complaint is "silent" can not hear tick tick tick...but love it a little bit chunky ...
I think this is one of best buy spring drive watches because it did not carry "GRAND" you don't have to pay premium to get it
I may go buy a SBDB015 another good spring drive GMT Seiko at 2K plus price brand new
Don't get it wrong I like Seiko/Grand Seiko but with limited funding I have to spend my money wisely


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

went to Seiko Boutique Taiwan last night and now on special promotion 15% off then another 5% off
combined is around 20% off
my friend told me GS dealers offer better discount than boutique

one thing don't under stand
the quartz limited GMT list price is cheaper than 200M quartz diver over $1000 USD
diver not even has a date function


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## journeyforce (Apr 20, 2013)

Taking a better look at prices,

I still think GS is a bit undervalued. Say you have $4000 to spend on a high end watch. You look at Rolex, you are not going to find a new watch for $4000 or less. Look at Omega and you might find one or two watches at the $4000 range.

Now look at Grand Seiko. With that $4000 you can buy several GS quartz watches with the cool 9F movement (prices start at $2200) including a few Limited Edition and GMT models, a couple of automatics (at $3800) or a couple of Spring drive models ($3800)

So you can get a quartz or a Springdrive or a automatic for under $4000. That is a hell of a deal.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

journeyforce said:


> Taking a better look at prices,
> 
> I still think GS is a bit undervalued. Say you have $4000 to spend on a high end watch. You look at Rolex, you are not going to find a new watch for $4000 or less. Look at Omega and you might find one or two watches at the $4000 range.
> 
> ...


SD and automatics can also be purchased for less than 4k, and if you are willing to peruse the preowned offerings a whole new world will open up before you.

Edit: Looks like you already stated the above in your own post and I just failed to notice it, rendering my comments superfluous. My bad


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I for one feel that I got a lot of watch for the money in the SNR035. Not that many traveller GMT watches out there under $5k, and even less with Spring Drive.


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

this is a nice watch but did you ever check out SBDB011 and SBDB015?
(it's much cheaper same movement)


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

TCWU said:


> this is a nice watch but did you ever check out SBDB011 and SBDB015?
> (it's much cheaper same movement)


I like the SBDB015 Landmaster very much, I have been thinking about getting one for quite a while. I ended getting my A231 a year ago and put off the Landmaster purchase.

The SBDB017 and 018 are great watches as well. I prefer the 017. Not sure if they are still current models.

Nice SD GMT.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

Sparrowhawk said:


> I like the SBDB015 Landmaster very much, I have been thinking about getting one for quite a while.


You and me both, Sparrowhawk - I set the Landmaster aside in favor of a dressy Damasko DK105 but have not ruled it out. For me, the pros are the asymmetric Ti case, Spring Drive, bullhead design, GMT, cool look. Cons are the thickness, odd dial layout, and a possible lack of scratch resistance (something that isn't an issue for the Damasko  ).

If you get one, please post some pix for me.


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

whineboy said:


> You and me both, Sparrowhawk - I set the Landmaster aside in favor of a dressy Damasko DK105 but have not ruled it out. For me, the pros are the asymmetric Ti case, Spring Drive, bullhead design, GMT, cool look. Cons are the thickness, odd dial layout, and a possible lack of scratch resistance (something that isn't an issue for the Damasko  ).
> 
> If you get one, please post some pix for me.


It may be a while for me.

The Landmaster is awesome. The all dial bezel is very well executed and works very well. To me, it's just about perfect. The fact that the case of the Landmaster is vacuum sealed is a great benefit as well.

The Landmaster is supposed to have a DiaShield treated titanium case, so scratches should be minimized.

The LE blackened version, SBDB007 is nice as well. As it is a discontinued LE, it may be more difficult to come by.

I like that it is the continuation of the unavailable Spacewalk;

Spring Drive Spacewalk | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION

Damasko makes a nice watch as well. I have two and plan to pick up another in the future.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

The MM GMT is fugly imo - especially the GMT hand. Same with the Landmaster's GMT hand, which besides being ugly also somehow manages to somehow be massive and barely legible at the same time.

But neither would have come into consideration anyways as I have specifically been looking for a traveller's GMT watch with a bi-directional 24h bezel as well as 24h markings on the dial or rehaut.

3rd time zone FTW


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

Sparrowhawk said:


> I like the SBDB015 Landmaster very much, I have been thinking about getting one for quite a while. I ended getting my A231 a year ago and put off the Landmaster purchase.
> 
> The SBDB017 and 018 are great watches as well. I prefer the 017. Not sure if they are still current models.
> 
> Nice SD GMT.


https://www.azfinetime.com/seiko-prospex-200m-spring-drive-gmt-sbdb017/

It looks like Seiko discontinued both 17 and 18 can not find any Japan dealer offer it on the web
011/015/017/018 are the best for their bucks
for over $4.5KUSD I just go for Grand Seiko I am not going to spend my money on Seiko (except the SLA025)

The more I look at SBDB017 the more I like it ...maybe it's not so popular can not find it on Seiko forum .
I owned SBDB001 before and it's consider very cheap ..paid brand new for $2800 bought direct from Japan..
Really look into GS Ti Spring drive and after I checked the price I don't think I can spend >5K on it...
May pick up SBDB015 later while it's still available...rumors said Seiko is going to discontinued them 011/015 maybe already discontinued 017/018 
LX line now is their Seiko SD sport line cash cows...


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## greent54 (Apr 7, 2018)

TCWU said:


> https://www.azfinetime.com/seiko-prospex-200m-spring-drive-gmt-sbdb017/
> 
> It looks like Seiko discontinued both 17 and 18 can not find any Japan dealer offer it on the web
> 011/015/017/018 are the best for their bucks
> ...


You say cash cows what about Omega even the new one Seamaster has issues and it's just come out because of the advertisements that's why it sells

Spring drive movement few issues totally reliable look it on the internet and YouTube seems alien to you cos expensive but it's worth it

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

As I said earlier..Seiko did not adjust their price once Seiko put it on the Japan market
only same movement with a different case can do the new price job
same with 8L35
you can only raise the price with new model
is the new better than old? it's your personal call!

SBDB015 sells around 2700 USD / SBDB011 Sells around 3600 USD /SBDB001 2800USD 
LX line it's at least 1.7K-2.5K more ....better sell LX models than the old ones..
for my buck I go for SBDB011/015

5 years from now if no new model comes out the LX line stays at same list price in Japan...the only thing different it's exchange rate...
if I want a LX line one I will go for limited edition at least once it's gone it's gone


I don't like the white color second time zone hand should be red or yellow on SBDB001/015...like the older GMT SD model ...


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## jwron (Apr 5, 2015)

GS is experimenting and like any businesses will raise prices (up to the prices of other brands they view as legitimate competitors) until they see demand wane. It has been a long time coming. Whether it pans out or backfires for them only time will tell. Clearly, customers of the brand who are used to lower prices will be peeved, but will they look elsewhere?

I also think it will be an uphill battle for a long time with the Seiko name being associated with value watches today and in the past. An element of this will linger even if GS is wildly successful. There is a fantastic article on TimeZone from 2002 on this topic and Seiko:

https://web.archive.org/web/2005031...one.com/library/cjrml/cjrml631880303271875000

The same themes are relevant today and that is where I personally see most of this pushback coming from, because the marketing in this industry conditions us against the facts, whether we are conscious of it or not.

The main issues I have with GS pricing is that there is not enough diversity in the available complications and the warranty is too short (we all know these are built to last, just match your competitors and make the warranty 5-10 years).

I also think there is too much emphasis on LEs instead of focusing on making more icons and heavy hitters like Snowflake. These don't need to be big sellers (although ideally they would be) - but the purpose is to elevate the brand as a whole and all its timepieces. This would justify the higher prices in our mind's eye... but I suspect this will come to pass over time. It is probably the case that icons are not so much made by the brand as they are decided by the market and customers of the brand.

I also think Seiko needs to be far more careful with the types of movement they bring to market outside of GS/Credor, e.g. putting high-end luxury movements like Spring Drive in non-limited / non-anniversary Seikos (outside of GS/Credor) is IMO devaluing the brand. This is also the sort of place where the idea that GS pieces as a whole are priced too high comes from. In the same way that there exist icon pieces, Spring Drive is an icon in fine watchmaking and this movement should distinguish GS from not only its competitors, but from the Seiko brand.

Outside of rare vintage Seikos, I should not be able to get Spring Drive without paying the GS/Credor premium. The lack of awareness of the beancounters at the top of Seiko/GS as they transition towards the high-end global luxury market could be their undoing. If we are talking about Spring Drive, the pure Seiko nameplate should be reserved only for limited issues of new Spring Drive movements (e.g. the first handwound 7R68 calibers made before Spring Drive was introduced to GS and 5R86 chronograph calibers from early 2000s) or for anniversary re-issues.


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

Yep, the SBDB017 is s great watch. I see rhem available as preowned every once in a while.

It may take a while, but you should be able to find them.


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

greent54 said:


> You say cash cows what about Omega even the new one Seamaster has issues and it's just come out because of the advertisements that's why it sells
> 
> Spring drive movement few issues totally reliable look it on the internet and YouTube seems alien to you cos expensive but it's worth it
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


I believe his point is that the new LX SD models are selling for GS prices, while the Prospex Spring Drive models were/ are selling for considerably less, often with comparable features. Sometimes around half the cost.


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## Sparrowhawk (May 22, 2006)

WastedYears said:


> The MM GMT is fugly imo - especially the GMT hand. Same with the Landmaster's GMT hand, which besides being ugly also somehow manages to somehow be massive and barely legible at the same time.
> 
> But neither would have come into consideration anyways as I have specifically been looking for a traveller's GMT watch with a bi-directional 24h bezel as well as 24h markings on the dial or rehaut.
> 
> 3rd time zone FTW


To each his own.

I like the Landmaster, SBDB015, the GMT hand is well designed from my perspective.

BTW, most likely my favorite IM song.


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## sleeperj74 (Apr 19, 2019)

They may be taking a page out of Rolex's book. Rolex does it better than any manufacturer: With very little changes to the product and very little output, the brand's prices are soaring with no end in sight. Tudor was once the value brand for Rolex, but it is now becoming it's own legitimate brand at a better cost point but still in-affordable for most people. If GS follows this model, and continues to benefit from high regard from most, if not all, social media forums, they can easily set GS as their "Rolex" and Prospex as their "Tudor."


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## Clint Pockets (Oct 21, 2018)

TCWU said:


> I don't like the white color second time zone hand should be red or yellow on SBDB001/015...like the older GMT SD model ...


So, I just discovered the SBDB003 today and was struck by how cool the red GMT hand looks on that watch and I wondered what the SBDB001/011 would look like with that same red GMT. Well, a few minutes later and yes, this would be very nice. Very nice indeed.








photoshopped. sbdb0111 is not a real thing!


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

they refused to switch to the red second time zone hand even I want to pay for it..I already checked with Seiko Japan 2/3 years ago
Seiko did lots stupid things not we can understand!


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## Clint Pockets (Oct 21, 2018)

TCWU said:


> they refused to switch to the red second time zone hand even I want to pay for it..I already checked with Seiko Japan 2/3 years ago
> Seiko did lots stupid things not we can understand!


hmm, that gives me an idea. I'm a couple weeks away from getting my sbdb001. it's in the mail on its way from Japan. if the white gmt hand really bothers me I may just ask the local Seiko service center here if they will swap out the white for the red. unfortunately, even if they agreed to do it they generally estimate that any parts ordered from Japan take about 6 months to arrive, which is crazy!


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## dwalby (Jun 25, 2018)

jwron said:


> there is not enough diversity in the available complications


yeah, that's my issue with GS as well. The snowflake is iconic, seems to hold its resale value rather well due to high demand, but no SS version available, why? I tried a snowflake on and just didn't like the lack of weight and the overall feel of Ti, but I would have been a buyer if they made one in steel. Its not like it would be a heavy watch in SS, why not offer both options on such a popular model?


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

I think spring drive need to be serviced by Japan..not by Thailand Seiko


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

dwalby said:


> yeah, that's my issue with GS as well. The snowflake is iconic, seems to hold its resale value rather well due to high demand, but no SS version available, why? I tried a snowflake on and just didn't like the lack of weight and the overall feel of Ti, but I would have been a buyer if they made one in steel. Its not like it would be a heavy watch in SS, why not offer both options on such a popular model?


have you checked this one yet
https://timelessluxwatches.com/product/grand-seiko-sbge249/


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## greent54 (Apr 7, 2018)

TCWU said:


> have you checked this one yet
> https://timelessluxwatches.com/product/grand-seiko-sbge249/


Titanium watches less weight more comfortable

Sent from my SM-N975F using Tapatalk


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## mattmartin (Aug 8, 2008)

I have an sbdb001 and the white gmt hand is well balanced with the dial and hands. It is rather subtle in real life.



Clint Pockets said:


> hmm, that gives me an idea. I'm a couple weeks away from getting my sbdb001. it's in the mail on its way from Japan. if the white gmt hand really bothers me I may just ask the local Seiko service center here if they will swap out the white for the red. unfortunately, even if they agreed to do it they generally estimate that any parts ordered from Japan take about 6 months to arrive, which is crazy!


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## TCWU (Jun 25, 2019)

mattmartin said:


> I have an sbdb001 and the white gmt hand is well balanced with the dial and hands. It is rather subtle in real life.


depends on your age...
when I need the reading glass its a big NO NO..too confused ...can not read the time very fast


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## DVR (Oct 5, 2007)

TCWU said:


> depends on your age...
> when I need the reading glass its a big NO NO..too confused ...can not read the time very fast


For that reason I do not want a GMT watch anymore. The extra hand makes it difficult and confusing to read the time at a glance.


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## Clint Pockets (Oct 21, 2018)

TCWU said:


> I think spring drive need to be serviced by Japan..not by Thailand Seiko


They service spring drive in Thailand and they proudly display their watchmakers' spring drive training certificates in the lobby to show they know what they're doing. The only spring drives they cannot service here are SD chronographs.


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## dwalby (Jun 25, 2018)

TCWU said:


> have you checked this one yet
> https://timelessluxwatches.com/product/grand-seiko-sbge249/


yeah, never been a fan of GMT or chronograph watches, 3 hands only for me.

And regarding the other reply about Ti being less weight/more comfortable, that's a subjective personal opinion kind of thing. I like a little weight to my watches, the Ti snowflake feels too light, has a similar feel to aluminum, and from pictures I see on the web all the pre-owned Ti bracelets seem to be full of scratches.


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