# Orient diver 300M vs. Sumo



## visualguy (May 3, 2009)

I have both the Orient Star 300M diver (yellow dial) and the Sumo. I have to say that even though the JDM OS300 is two and half times the price of the Sumo, I think that the Sumo is overall a nicer watch. If I could keep only one, I'd keep the Sumo.

The Sumo has a nicer case and a better movement (hacking, hand winding feature). The OS300 is too bulky. The things I like better about the OS300 are the dial, the hands, the sapphire crystal, and the power reserve indicator.


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## 1R0NH31D3 (Jan 8, 2009)

Let's see some pics. Side by side comparisons, show us, show us!



visualguy said:


> I have both the Orient Star 300M diver (yellow dial) and the Sumo. I have to say that even though the JDM OS300 is two and half times the price of the Sumo, I think that the Sumo is overall a nicer watch. If I could keep only one, I'd keep the Sumo.
> 
> The Sumo has a nicer case and a better movement (hacking, hand winding feature). The OS300 is too bulky. The things I like better about the OS300 are the dial, the hands, the sapphire crystal, and the power reserve indicator.


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## HR F1 (Dec 14, 2006)

I wish I had the wrist size to pull off the JDM yellow OS300. It looks amazing but it would look goofy as heck on my wrist :-(


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## diggah (Jul 6, 2009)

Both watches are in fact very different. The Sumo is a really nice mid level dressy diver and surely has a nicer case in a way that it's lines are more elegant and handsome. The OS300 otoh is a much beefier tool diver and thus a bit crude in its looks, but certainly of much higher quality and class. The OS300 is objectively superior in so many ways... case, bezel and bezel insert, AR sapphire, hands, bracelet and clasp, crown, lume (yes, lume!!), saturation dive, ... Everything screams tool on this watch and I feel its construction is not compromised in any detail. The OS300 is a much more "complete" watch than the Sumo.

The only thing where the Sumo's really superior is its movement, all else comes down to subjective preference. Other details of the Sumo again like the horrendously reflecting hardlex feel soo cheapy and out of place they tear down the whole watch and absolutely freak me out everytime I look at them... 

cheers,


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## timebean (Oct 27, 2009)

I'd also add that the OS is a saturation diver and rated 100m more than the sumo. At least in my case, my OS300 run between -2 to -4 seconds per day where as my sumo is more like -7 to -8 seconds per day. IMHO, the OS300 also has subtle details that leads me to believe that a lot of time was put into the overall design, which I think counts for a lot.


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## music_healing (May 27, 2008)

as a person who own both..

both are incredible piece.. just reminding u..

what size of ur wrist ? 
coz IMHO

OS300 is exquisite watch..
very fine detail and mirror finishing
simple tool yet elegant

but its big and chunky and the lug to lug is not hugging ur wrist
OS300 will run and keep moving in ur wrist, esp using the factory bracelet..
beside that, everything else is perfect

the price, unless u can get < 900 usd like me, 
IMHO paying > 1000 usd for os300..
I would prefer a sumo
or saving up for MM or omega SMP

but thats just me..


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## omegaor (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm a little lost in this logic. You can buy the os 300 and a sumo for the cost of a seiko mm300 and at least one of the watches will have a sapphire crystal. I own the orient 300m and an omega 45mm po, both bought new and I believe the Orient more than measures up to the po at it's price range.


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

I've owned both, and the OS300 is a nicer watch. From the taller more substantial case size and raised caseback to a bezel with engraved indices, it is higher end all around. The Sumo was a good watch but I could not get over the recessed bezel (makes it hard to turn), the printed bezel insert (I prefer engraved), and the thin case.


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## Jeje3325 (Oct 28, 2008)

I've got both and I prefer the 300m. Actually I've indulged myself with the 3 colors... And the blue Sumo. 
The Sumo wears like silk but I find that the bracelet could be meatier.
The 300 is a quality tool. Its basically in my top 5 out of 40+ :-!
The thing is for a very active day I don't wear the 300 on a bracelet because of the weight Its a chunk. More stable on a strap

A few pics


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## Nikos (Jun 23, 2009)

Since I got my O300 I haven't worn my Sumo much, if at all. The Orient is so much more substantial than the Seiko. However, putting that aside, the bezel insert on the Sumo just doesn't cut it compared to the finish on the rest of the watch and it can't compare to the engraved Insert of the Orient.


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## jason_recliner (Feb 2, 2009)

The Orient has a lot going for it, but I'd like it a lot more without the power indicator. A no date version could be intersting, too.

And yeah, the Sumo would be even better with an engraved bezel insert, or maybe an engraved one biece bezel.


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## GX9901 (May 13, 2009)

While I have never handled an OS 300M, I have a pretty good idea what it's about. I don't think the two watches are all that comparable. The OS is a big chunky diver while the Sumo is more of a dress diver (stylistically) that looks smaller than it is. You probably prefer one style or the other. I basically traded my very chunky Benarus Sea Devil (I think it's similar to the OS 300M dimensionally) for the Sumo because I have another super chunky tool diver and wanted something smaller and thinner. I'm sure the OS 300M would impress me a lot if I ever see one in person, but for my current collection, the Sumo is preferable.


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## Reid (Aug 12, 2007)

Huge Seiko fan that I am, I still must say that I find the OS 300 much more appealing despite the higher price tag. I wish it had a domed crystal though.


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## ninjafish (Jun 11, 2007)

I like to offer my view that a movement is not "better" just because it hacks and handwinds, but the opposite mantra is repeated so constantly that it will likely always be regarded as gospel. 

I also owned both watches at the same time and while I agree that the Sumo offers excellent quality at its price point, I found the Orient superior to it in every single category... including its movement.

Granted, if you require the ability to handwind then, yes the Sumo's movement would be better for your needs. But after being told that handwinding my Sumo would cause accelerated wear to the mechanism, I resolved never to touch it again. The Orient auto-winds so beautifully that I feel a handwinding feature would only be a redundant complication that spoiled such a purpose-built movement. Any complication that I don't need, becomes a gimmick (to me) rather than a feature. The strength of the Orient's movement lies in its amazing accuracy and beefy, last-forever construction. 

The most telling feature of the Orient's quality, to me, is its date window :-d. Seems like a weird thing to say right? Well, I am constantly amazed at how after seeing many watches that struggle with proper date alignment, even within fairly large windows, the OS300 is built with only the tiniest little window with only a hair's breadth room for the number... and bang, it still hits it perfectly each and every time.

I always feel torn about praising the OS because I wish people would stop buying them so Orient would drop the price so I can get another. But if Orient released the OS in two versions, one with hacking and handwinding and the other without... I would pay extra to get an 'uncomplicated' model.

Of course this is just my opinion... and in the time it took me to write this, somewhere on the Internet five more people wrote that a hacking movement is "better". ;-)

Chad


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## visualguy (May 3, 2009)

ninjafish said:


> The Orient auto-winds so beautifully that I feel a handwinding feature would only be a redundant complication that spoiled such a purpose-built movement.


How would it spoil it? If you don't want to handwind, you don't have to do it, but it's useful in some cases, and I certainly don't see what harm having the feature available would cause. Again, no one forces you to use it. By the way, I don't see why handwinding would cause more wear than shaking the watch to move the rotor. Both cause wear.

Hacking is another feature that is useful and causes no harm.

Orient is gradually increasing the number of watches where it offers hacking and handwinding versions of their automatic movements. I would venture a guess that their next high-end diver will have those features as well.


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## visualguy (May 3, 2009)

Reid said:


> Huge Seiko fan that I am, I still must say that I find the OS 300 much more appealing despite the higher price tag. I wish it had a domed crystal though.


The OS300 has a much simpler case finishing than the Sumo. Also, it's extremely bulky and heavy. No need to mention the movement again... It really isn't a clear winner against the Sumo in my opinion. I actually like the Sumo better overall, although the OS300 has some advantages.


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## HR F1 (Dec 14, 2006)

ninjafish said:


> But after being told that handwinding my Sumo would cause accelerated wear to the mechanism, I resolved never to touch it again. Chad


How would handwinding cause wear to the 6R15 or any handwindable movement for that matter?

I'm guessing you are basing it on what some people have said about the 6R15 being based off the 7S and it was therefore "never meant" to be hacked and handwound.

Just my opinion, but that statement doesn't seem to be right.

I've owned seven 6R15 watches and handwound them all the time without a single issue.



visualguy said:


> I would venture a guess that their next high-end diver will have those features as well.


That would be pretty awesome if they added hacking and handwinding to a new/updated version of the OS300.


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## ninjafish (Jun 11, 2007)

visualguy said:


> How would it spoil it? If you don't want to handwind, you don't have to do it, but it's useful in some cases, and I certainly don't see what harm having the feature available would cause. Again, no one forces you to use it. By the way, I don't see why handwinding would cause more wear than shaking the watch to move the rotor. Both cause wear.
> 
> Hacking is another feature that is useful and causes no harm.
> 
> Orient is gradually increasing the number of watches where it offers hacking and handwinding versions of their automatic movements. I would venture a guess that their next high-end diver will have those features as well.


I'm afraid that you are going to be dissapionted to learn that yes, hadwinding the Sumo does cause greater wear than autowinding it. Also, have you seen the Orient's movement dissected? It is freaking huge. To fit in added complications, everything else would have to be made a little smaller. I don't want it on there for just the same reason that I would buy manual rolling windows in my Honda Odyssey if it was possible - one less thing to break :-!.

As for whether or not hacking is "useful", that is entirely a matter of preference, not a fact. For me, I feel it is utterly "useless" to have it on a mechanical timepiece. I still keep track of my accuracy compared to atomic time (it just takes simple addition or subtraction), but I like to have my minute hand strike the markers at the exact time that the seconds hand reaches 12 (yup, OCD). A non-hacking watch gives me the ability to make those tiny adjustments without disrupting my 'count', and having to start the accuracy test period all over again.

I have tried to synchonize my hacking watches to the exact second before, and that in itself is not very fun. I am usually a little early or a little late and then have to wait another minute just to try again. Now, imagine trying to do that AND trying to have the minute hand line up perfectly on the marker too...

No way, non-hacking is a feature that I couldn't live without!

Chad


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## HR F1 (Dec 14, 2006)

ninjafish said:


> I'm afraid that you are going to be dissapionted to learn that yes, hadwinding the Sumo does cause greater wear than autowinding it. Chad


Again I have to ask: why? You state this as though it was an indisputable fact and it's simply not.

It's fine if you don't need to have handwinding/hacking on your watches, but justifying it by saying those features cause greater wear seems to be more than a bit misleading!


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## oneTimer (Feb 11, 2010)

I love the OS300 especially the black/gold one but I am just a little iffy on its movement. Just how accurate is the OS300 compared to the Sumo? My Sumo runs +4 secs/day. What is the gain/loss per day on the Orient?


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## ninjafish (Jun 11, 2007)

HR F1 said:


> Again I have to ask: why? You state this as though it was an indisputable fact and it's simply not.
> 
> It's fine if you don't need to have handwinding/hacking on your watches, but justifying it by saying those features cause greater wear seems to be more than a bit misleading!


I'll do some searches to see if I can pull up the threads. I learned it here on WUS, and people made it sound like I was the last one to find out :-d


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## jason_recliner (Feb 2, 2009)

What about bezel action? Is the OS390 action as good as the incredibly slick and damped Sumo action? Better?


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

jason_recliner said:


> What about bezel action? Is the OS390 action as good as the incredibly slick and damped Sumo action? Better?


Depends what you like. For example, I don't like the clicks of the Monster bezel, which is a bit softer (but not much more) than a Sumo. The OS300 has good firm detents and is among the most solid bezels I've ever used.


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## Jeje3325 (Oct 28, 2008)

*I like the way you explain it*



ninjafish said:


> I like to offer my view that a movement is not "better" just because it hacks and handwinds, but the opposite mantra is repeated so constantly that it will likely always be regarded as gospel.
> 
> I also owned both watches at the same time and while I agree that the Sumo offers excellent quality at its price point, I found the Orient superior to it in every single category... including its movement.
> 
> ...


Yep, never stopped to think at the date window but true. Right on every time.
Also we should stop praising the Orient, maybe they's be a bit cheaper and less sought for hehehe
The power reserve is basically my favorite complication. Its like a proof of life ;-)

Jéjé


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## visualguy (May 3, 2009)

oneTimer said:


> I love the OS300 especially the black/gold one but I am just a little iffy on its movement. Just how accurate is the OS300 compared to the Sumo? My Sumo runs +4 secs/day. What is the gain/loss per day on the Orient?


The accuracy spec is the same for both. The accepted wisdom on this forum seems to be that the OS300 movements are better adjusted/regulated at the factory than the Sumo movements, but I don't know how well-substantiated that observation is exactly...


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## visualguy (May 3, 2009)

ninjafish said:


> Also, have you seen the Orient's movement dissected? It is freaking huge. To fit in added complications, everything else would have to be made a little smaller. I don't want it on there for just the same reason that I would buy manual rolling windows in my Honda Odyssey if it was possible - one less thing to break :-!.


Handwinding and hacking aren't complex complications like chrono or perpetual calendar. I wouldn't even call them complications... They add very little complexity to the movement.

There really is no positive way to spin the lack of handwinding and hacking. It's an unfortunate deficiency in a watch at the price level of the OS300, and I would expect Orient to address that just as they have been doing with other Orient Star watches.


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## Nikos (Jun 23, 2009)

jason_recliner said:


> What about bezel action? Is the OS390 action as good as the incredibly slick and damped Sumo action? Better?


I'd rate that of the Sumo as one of the best ever-at least the best I've ever tried. There's nothing wrong with the Orient's. It's got a positive feel, nice click, and lines up correctly with the indices. The Sumo however is just better, imo.


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## GX9901 (May 13, 2009)

ninjafish said:


> I'm afraid that you are going to be dissapionted to learn that yes, hadwinding the Sumo does cause greater wear than autowinding it. Also, have you seen the Orient's movement dissected? It is freaking huge. To fit in added complications, everything else would have to be made a little smaller. *I don't want it on there for just the same reason that I would buy manual rolling windows in my Honda Odyssey if it was possible* - one less thing to break :-!.


When this is your train of thought, I guess there's no arguing with you about the merits of hacking and hand-winding in a movement. I for one would never want manual rolling windows in my Odyssey.:-d

I personally don't think having hand-winding and hacking necessarily make a better movement, not when you have that in most Chinese movements found in the likes of Alpha watches. But they are convenient features (just like power windows) and therefore desirable to me. While it could be true that hand-winding does indeed accelerate movement wear, it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. And if you don't want to use hand-winding, I don't think the mere presence of the hand-winding mechanism could accelerate movement wear. So having hand-winding gives you more options but doesn't automatically cause the movement to wear out sooner.


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## BenL (Oct 1, 2008)

Like I always say, the Sumo is really one of the best watches in its class. :-!


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## omegaor (Feb 12, 2010)

You are probably are correct, however, I believe the Orient 300m is really in another class, more comparable to watches from 1000 to 2000 dollars.


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## tmt (Jul 4, 2008)

The thing to remember about the Orients calibre is that it is pretty accurate.
I like that in a watch.
I´ve also read from many people online that their OS300/O300 are very accurate.
So from my point of view the calibre can look awful and undecorated, but at least it´s accurate. I still think accuracy is kind of cool in a watch.

As I have only two watches to wear, I use them for lengthy periods of time, and then suddenly accuracy matters. For me.

And for me who thought hack/wind really mattered, if a calibre can perform so well, maybe performance is more important.

Jan


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## timebean (Oct 27, 2009)

Just to add, I spoke with Jack once at IWW about regulating a watch and I actually asked about hand-winding and he said you could wind it forever and not do a thing to it. Just a data point for people.

I still prefer the OS300:-!



GX9901 said:


> When this is your train of thought, I guess there's no arguing with you about the merits of hacking and hand-winding in a movement. I for one would never want manual rolling windows in my Odyssey.:-d
> 
> I personally don't think having hand-winding and hacking necessarily make a better movement, not when you have that in most Chinese movements found in the likes of Alpha watches. But they are convenient features (just like power windows) and therefore desirable to me. While it could be true that hand-winding does indeed accelerate movement wear, it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make. And if you don't want to use hand-winding, I don't think the mere presence of the hand-winding mechanism could accelerate movement wear. So having hand-winding gives you more options but doesn't automatically cause the movement to wear out sooner.


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## ninjafish (Jun 11, 2007)

GX9901 said:


> When this is your train of thought, I guess there's no arguing with you about the merits of hacking and hand-winding in a movement. I for one would never want manual rolling windows in my Odyssey.:-d


I agree with all your points and I wish I could add a smiley face here, but the reality is not funny at all - I have recently been told by my shop that to repair my driver's side power sliding door and it is going to cost $375 in parts and labor - and the worst part is: a power door that has stopped working, is much heavier and not as easy to use as a straight manual door would have been. My power windows are working fine still (but they have slowed down already even though the van is only three years old!), but I'm thinking about what they're going to be like in 10 years... probably will require repairs before then. I think there's always a trade off and I believe that sometimes convenience comes at the cost of reliability.

It all depends on what you're using it for, are you leasing the car or are you going to pass it on to your kids. Are you planning on just enjoying the watch now for the sheer joy of it, or are you looking to... uh, pass it on to your kids.
I don't want hacking or handwinding in a watch like the OS300 for the same reason that I don't want a moonphase indicator... with the way that I wear and use my watches, I have absolutely no need for it. And I refuse to accept that the movement is not as good just because of that, your point about certain Chinese autos explains that better than I ever could.


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## PJ (Sep 17, 2007)

Just wanted to give and update.

300m now has hacking and winding:-!

Phil


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

PJ said:


> Just wanted to give and update.
> 
> 300m now has hacking and winding:-!
> 
> Phil


Where is this listed? If so, it would be a nice upgrade!


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

Eric L. said:


> Where is this listed? If so, it would be a nice upgrade!


It's on the other Orient board, complete with scans of the release from Orient. Chino is listing them as available to reserve.

Cosmetically, the OS logo and text on the new 300M's dial is like that of the 200M Air Diver's.


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

scottymac said:


> It's on the other Orient board, complete with scans of the release from Orient. Chino is listing them as available to reserve.
> 
> Cosmetically, the OS logo and text on the new 300M's dial is like that of the 200M Air Diver's.


Great new feature. I don't see any difference in the logos but the lugs are different - they are more tapered now and no longer drilled through.


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

Copied and re-hosted from other forum:



*Old Dial Logo:*



*New Dial Logo*: (Same as Air Diver's 200M)


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## PJ (Sep 17, 2007)

scottymac said:


> Copied and re-hosted from other forum:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sold my black to buy one with hacking now I can't decide whether to get black again or yellow:-s

Helppppppp:rodekaart


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## Jeje3325 (Oct 28, 2008)

PJ said:


> Sold my black to buy one with hacking now I can't decide whether to get black again or yellow:-s
> 
> Helppppppp:rodekaart


Very difficult choice. black is forever but the yellow 300 is so nice... Probably the best yellow dial I ever had and seen.

Get a black to start and eventually get a yellow? :think:










and the other logo










lol I bet those don't help much... They both look so good!


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## PJ (Sep 17, 2007)

They do and love the pics my friend.

May be black because I miss it already and loved it on rubber. Here is my old friend:-!


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## tmt (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow, hack/wind huh?
Well, now buying the os300 should really be a no-brainer:-!
I always fancied the yellow dial, maybe in the future I´ll stop thinking about a 14060 and go for another os300 in yellow
Jan


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