# My tourbillon (unfinished)



## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I figured i might as well make my own thread for this, since it's so long and i don't want to take the other thread off topic.

To, Enough: The tourbillon isn't running yet. I've spent the last 10 months refining the tourbillon carriage itself. I'm on my 5th carriage so far. The first, second, and third were never finished, the fourth was nearly finished in February before i had to travel around the world taking care of boring family business which took up a few months, i was nearly dead set on using the fourth carriage in the final watch but while traveling i kept looking at pictures of tourbillon carriages from many makers and realized i was barely meeting the standards of the "mass produced" small, heavy, type of carriage used in most Swiss wrist watches nowadays. So i changed the design slightly and started the fifth carriage last month, it's almost finished now, all i need to do is make the post for the pinion and then add the pivot on the upper carriage bridge. I also made a new balance wheel which is radically different from my other one, the other one which i, too soon, called the "final model". Although it didn't have problems, it was a pain to poise, so the new one has poising screws and uses mean-time screws for regulation rather than adjustable masses, it's a whole other beast.

I've made so many failed parts that it's nice to finally be able to see this thing and not only in my imagination.

Just before i typed this out i was seeing how far down the tourbillon pinion had to go, or could go;









Here it is sort of assembled. Some obvious parts are missing, like all the escapement parts, but also there are no screws holding anything together, it's all just held together by friction, this is a sign that the parts have been sized correctly, also the adjustable banking pins aren't in either. It has a much nicer finish than it looks in this picture because i was handling it with my bare hands, it'll look much nicer in the finished watch all cleaned up.









Now, the new balance wheel, with it's hairspring, i partly vibrated it, but i still need to create the overcoil, the correct point is just before the spring is pulled outward.









Here's also the wheel that was in the first picture, it's the third wheel, the jewel is also on it.









If people here are interested in this, i could keep updating this thread. Although, if you google my full name i'm pretty sure you'll find a lot more about this watch.


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

Are the banking pins going to be "cammed"?


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

enough said:


> Are the banking pins going to be "cammed"?


They're basically a headless screw with an offset pin on one end and a slot in the other, just like you would find on an old pocket watch.

Here's a picture of them, they've already been made, i just didn't feel like taking a picture earlier. They fit into the holes behind that jewel.


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

So they are effectively eccentric or "cammed"?

I haven't considered a carriage very much, but I think I myself would investigate using round stock, rolling it and incorporating weldments. I think that would be a very "clean", revealing execution. The laser would be wonderful for this. I'd hate to consider a production run from plate. The Taig, some code, micro fly cutter, end mill, etc - just roughing it in looks like work. Can your carriage be blanked from a "stamping" tool?


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

Keep updating us here. I personally would really like it if there was a watch forum that encouraged creative watch making. It's really very encouraging to all of us to see such fine work.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

enough said:


> So they are effectively eccentric or "cammed"?
> 
> I haven't considered a carriage very much, but I think I myself would investigate using round stock, rolling it and incorporating weldments. I think that would be a very "clean", revealing execution. The laser would be wonderful for this. I'd hate to consider a production run from plate. The Taig, some code, micro fly cutter, end mill, etc - just roughing it in looks like work. Can your carriage be blanked from a "stamping" tool?


Yup, you pretty much had the right idea to start. I just figured i'd explain it if i was going to post a picture.

Ah, tourbillon carriages. There's a lot of different ways of making them, however, in my opinion, the best way is by hand. This is because the smaller the carriage the lighter it is, and the lighter it is the better the watch will run in the end. I know a fellow in Tokyo who makes tourbillon watches using almost entirely a CNC mill. He uses tiny micro end mills for cutting teeth in wheels, which is just crazy, but he ends up with a very uniform tooth shape. He does the carriage that way too, however he's limited with his machines, they can only go so far before the material becomes so thin that they simply become too fragile for his mill to cleanly machine them without causing distortions, so in the end his carriages are much heavier and larger than mine.

My carriage is made of O1 tool steel and is actually hardened and tempered to a purple color while in a simple disk form with just holes in them, normal files can't cut steel that hard so i have to use diamond files and diamond coated piecing blades to shape it, but the end result is an extremely fine carriage, i like to refer to it as a "string" of steel because it gets so thin in some areas. The total thickness of the carriage is .3mm and the rim and arms get even thinner in certain areas. So, no it can't be stamped, it could be stamped if the steel was softer, but then hardening the carriage after would probably cause distortion, even if it was held on a backplate or sandwiched in place. I've tried doing the hardening after the basic shaping and it never works, no matter how it's held.

I haven't heard of any milling machine capable of making extremely delicate tourbillon parts, the hardness of the steel is important and so even if a machine is accurate enough, you would have to have a cutting bit hard enough to cut hardened steel, yet durable enough to not break too often, and all of that in a micro scale.

This is probably the same reason why manufactures in Switzerland right now are making those heavy, clumsy carriages even though they have machines worth more than most people's homes.

The one type of machine i can think of that would be able to make a proper tourbillon carriage would be an Electrical Discharge Machine. With that you wouldn't need cutting bits, but still, i'm not sure if most EDM's are accurate enough for watch work.

Finally, most of the time spent on my carriage parts is spent on finish, i can plot the holes, bore them, quench and temper the entire thing, and cut them out to the basic shape in a couple of days. Yet it's been a month and i'm just barely getting to the finishing stages, this is because of the time spent getting the final geometry perfect, the bevels given a black polish, and the tops frosted. So even if you had an EDM or whatever else, you would still have to spend all that time with the finish one way or the other, i'm sure there are ways of polishing complex shaped steel quickly, but i'm not so sure, and even if there was, that's just another high cost machine to add to the list.

I've thought quite a bit about how to make these, and the one idea always been there in my head was to just do it by hand. Everything else was overly expensive or too complicated. Besides, it's pretty easy for me to do this sort of work as i'm quite familiar with the use of files, since i've been using them since i was about 12.


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## sixties.nut (Apr 5, 2009)

I can't begin to conceive how you were able to fashion this as I'm about to mangle err repair my very first movement (nothing fancy) just a typical movement. 

I watched your video and just wanted to say this is the coolest thing I've seen since, well since STS-1 launched! subscribed.

Mike


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## watchknight (Jan 10, 2010)

this is really inspiring, do you read any particular books on making a tourbillion carriage before you embarked on it ? Like the george daniel's watchmaking book?


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

watchknight said:


> this is really inspiring, do you read any particular books on making a tourbillion carriage before you embarked on it ? Like the george daniel's watchmaking book?


Thank you.

Yes, i read the book "Touhrbillon, About my Passion" Written by Steffen Pahlow, it's a limited number book of (i think) 400 and can only be bought from the author directly. He signs them individually as well.

I mentioned in another thread about the wait for Daniels "Watchmaking", i've had it pre-ordered for about a year now and it was originally supposed to ship in December, then it was May, now it's November, hopefully this will be the final ship date as i'm dying to see that book.

So, i mostly just had the Pahlow book, but, this watch is entirely my design with just a few ideas and designs borrowed from past watches, i took the basic ideas of some of the construction methods Pahlow uses, but i mostly had to figure things out on my own since Pahlow has a very well equipped shop full of old Lorch machines and anything you would ever need for watchmaking. I just have a couple of lathes and some hand tools, so a lot of tool making was involved before any watch making. I'm really working with the bare essentials as far as tools go.


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## watchknight (Jan 10, 2010)

P. Loatman said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, i read the book "Touhrbillon, About my Passion" Written by Steffen Pahlow, it's a limited number book of (i think) 400 and can only be bought from the author directly. He signs them individually as well.
> 
> ...


:-! Both books are good stuff, as far as watchmaking this are the 2 books I have seen which are really good. The Pahlow book is filled with nice pictures and diagrams in every page. I am inspired by your project, please keep us inform.


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## aditya (Nov 21, 2006)

your work is truly inspirational :-!

Aditya


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

I can just about clean a basic watch satisfactorily. I am always absolutely astonished by things like this, and I envy you your skill and your obsession!


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks everyone,

I'll post an update this evening since i'm nearly finished with the carriage.

-Paul


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks everyone,

I'll post an update this evening since i'm nearly finished with the carriage.

-Paul


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

*details*



P. Loatman said:


> Thanks everyone,
> 
> I'll post an update this evening since i'm nearly finished with the carriage.
> 
> -Paul


What engine did you cut your third wheel on?

Have you fabricated your pallet fork yet?


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

The third wheel is an original from ETA with some modifications as far as finish, and the pinion also had to be shortened as much as possible to fit under the tourbillon with as little clearance as possible. The watch uses most of the train from the 6498/7. I obviously had to make the fourth wheel though, since it's stationary, i cut it on my lathe using an indexing system that i built myself, i also made the gear cutter for it as well.

The base of the indexing attachement started as a 2 inch square block o' steel. I didn't have anything better so i had to cut it in half with a piercing saw.










Here you can see the base in the mostly finished attachment. All of the cutting and shaping for the steel base was done by hand with saws and files.









Here's some details of the pin arm.

















The index plates themselves i bought from someone in the UK. I use a 40:1 ratio worm gear set with the index plates and that gives me access to every single division from 2 to 66, then about 50 more common watch and clock sizes going up to 220. I think the next best thing would be an electronically controlled system.

Here're the gear cutters as well, one is for the 4th wheel pinion and the other for the 4th wheel itself.









Now, finally, the 4th wheel after cutting. Some of the teeth look odd, but it's just from the lighting. It was difficult to get the normal lighting to show the teeth well, so i did it with this red light. I've shown this wheel along with the gear cutting attachment and the cutters to Robert Porter himself and he approves. :-! In fact, the basic design of the gear cutting attachment is something i borrowed from one of his he made years ago for watch work.









The pallet has been made, i modified the existing pallet so that the balance could be positioned in the center of the carriage. Pallets aren't very difficult to make, but since lever escapements are so common, it just doesn't make sense to bother making your own, although from what i can tell the normal 6497/8 pallets are brass with some kind of plating, so i may just go ahead and make my own for the next watch.









Here's a shank and slot i made as well, just for practice though, the shank on the above pallet is from another original ETA pallet;


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

*kind of disappointed*

Paul, I thought you were going to build it from scratch. I'm sure when you get the equipment you'll be able to do better . . . . e


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: kind of disappointed*



enough said:


> Paul, I thought you were going to build it from scratch. I'm sure when you get the equipment you'll be able to do better . . . . e


:roll:

In reality though, no one makes watches from scratch. Not unless they have the ability to manifest atoms.

What equipment am i missing for that?


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## sixties.nut (Apr 5, 2009)

*RE: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*

I was just about to make the comment: You GO Boi ! Lookin Good P. Loatman.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks Sixties.nut.

I got a bit busy the other day and wasn't able to post that update like i said, but, here it is.

The pillar plate (if you can even call it that) had been started before i started on the new tourbillon carriage, i left it for the time being to finish the new carriage, and now that i'm done with it, i'm back to the pillar plate. The dial side of the movement is like an open-dial skeleton sort of watch. You'll be able to see the train in the watch from the front, the back will only have the winding gears and the click. The basic idea is from some of the original Breguet watches.

Here's an example of a similar concept made in the early 19th century, it's signed Bovier, there were a few "Bovier" signed watches at that time, but almost all were from Geneva, only one worked in Paris and also worked with Breguet for a time, it's assumed that this watch was made by that Bovier and not someone in Geneva.









Although the layout is quite different, the basic concept of a movement where almost everything is visible from the front is what i took from this watch. Here's my unfinished pillar plate.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

More work on the pillar plate.

This time i needed to use a milling method rather than turning to remove material since i couldn't go all the way around the center point, since i don't have any end mills and don't feel it's necessary to buy them (since they may cost quite a lot), i just made my own. It's 2 mm in diameter, pretty simple shape, i easily did it by hand with a small grinding wheel while it was held in a pin-vise. Never made an end-mill before but it worked perfectly.


















Now, here's what i had to mill. This is where i'll leave it for now until i've got some of the keyless works made, then i'll know how much more i can mill and where to mill.


















Here's the end mill in the milling head, the setup is backwards because of the position of the motor, i don't have a countershaft so i just turn the attachments backwards and it works just fine.









As i thought, the watch is coming along fairly quickly now that i'm finished with the tourbillon and i should be done with the entire watch in just a few months now.


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## Shawnny (Mar 12, 2010)

Very cool! Keep us updated.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I'm currently working on the barrel bridge. This bridge will also hold the second center pinion which will ultimately hold the cannon pinion and show the time, while the actual center wheel pinion won't have a cannon pinion at all.

Start off with the steel, this is precision ground O1.









Then drill the holes.









Then machine all the recesses.

















Then Harden and temper. I don't know why it looks green in the picture, but it was blueish purple in person.









Now, shaped out a bit and fitted on the watch with the barrel. That particular pillar in the picture is too low and is going to be turned down and will be replaced by a steel pillar of the correct height. If you look the bridge looks tilted towards the pillar, but that's only because the pillar is shorter than the other side, when i have the new pillar on it'll fit perfectly.

















All that's left is beveling and polishing.


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

Very nice. That would be neat with my reserve de marche modification.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

enough said:


> Very nice. That would be neat with my reserve de marche modification.


Do you go direct from the barrel or use the center wheel?


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

Drive off the barrel, reset off the arbor on the last one. I've driven off the minutes before.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

enough said:


> Drive off the barrel, reset off the arbor on the last one. I've driven off the minutes before.


I've heard that driving off the barrel isn't as "smooth" as the center wheel, but i wouldn't really know since i've never seen both together. What do you think?


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

Smooth? I've never thought about that - there's basically no torque. 11 lignes or less, things get kind of tight on space and a "center wheel" drive saves some room on the dial side maybe. e


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## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

This is some very cool work


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Made the set lever spring today.

From the precision ground O1 again. Drill some holes, cut it out, shape it a bit, harden and temper it.









Grind it down perfectly flat to the correct thickness.









Finish the shape.









All it needs now is to be polished.


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## enough (May 8, 2010)

Great execution! It's obvious that you're now gaining some manufacturing momentum. This process will make a significant "sticky". e


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

enough said:


> Great execution! It's obvious that you're now gaining some manufacturing momentum. This process will make a significant "sticky". e


Thanks. I knew i would get through these easy parts quickly, they're a ot easier to make than the tourbillon simply because of the size difference.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

dirtvictim said:


> This is some very cool work


I second that. VERY cool indeed.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks guys.

I was working on various bits and pieces today, i didn't complete anything since everything relies on everything else. I don't design things on a CAD program, or even on paper really, i just do it all in my head as i go along so it's not as simple as making a part and moving onto the next. Right now i only have a vague design of the keyless works setup in my head, i'm pretty positive the design will all fit since most of the difficult stuff has already been done in the "canvass watch", i just don't have all the little details so i have to do various things before other things to make sure it all works properly in the end.

Anyways, enough of my rant, below are some pictures.

The ratchet wheel recess was done a few days ago when i was milling, i went ahead and milled the recess instead of turning it for convenience since i had my lathe already setup for milling and needed to mill some other things later.









Now with the wheels in place, the crown wheel hasn't been placed yet because it won't actually be connected directly to the pillar plate.


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

This is a great thread and an interesting project. I am enjoying your progress very much.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

seanp said:


> This is a great thread and an interesting project. I am enjoying your progress very much.


Thanks Sean, i'm glad you're enjoying it.

I've been working on the keyless works and haven't really had much to photograph, but i'll post an update.

Now, since my watch is really quite different from the canvass watch (Unitas 6497/8) the keyless works has an apparently odd setup, but is fundamentally the same. Since my watch has all of the train components visible from the dial side, the pillar plate is on the opposite side compared with the Unitas movement, so in order to keep things simple and easy for assembly and disassembly i made the keyless works pretty much the same way as the Unitas, the parts are held in the same manner, but since the pillar plate is on the opposite side, as i've already mentioned, there had to be something to go under the wind and set pinions to hold the crown wheel, so this is what i came up with.










































Note: The set wheel does not rest on the small pillar under it on the picture. That pillar will have a small hole drilled into it for the stem, the set wheel will be held by another means which i will explain in another update.

So far all it needs is the crown wheel recess and it'll be done. One thing that i will add to the keyless works that the Unitas doesn't have will be a steel bridge for the winding stem, this bridge will hold the stem at the right position from just above the set lever, a stem bridge would have been used on high quality pocket watches where wear on the stem area of the plates wanted to be minimized.


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## Philip Bayer (Apr 30, 2010)

I would suspect that you have seen Habring's 6498 tourbillon? He incorporated the tourbillon into the existing ebauche and free sprung a balance from an old Venus movement. I recently ran across an article in Uhren Magazine where they tested its performance. I would be curious how it compares to the performance of a conventional 6498. It fell short of chronometer specifications for most results.

magazine article (in German):
http://www.watchtime.net/search/show.php?pdf=UM_2009_03_058.pdf&terms=habring

Test Results (click to enlarge)








Do you expect that you will need to upgrade the mainspring to compensate for the increase in mass in the gear train?

Keep up the great work,
Philip


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Philip Bayer said:


> I would suspect that you have seen Habring's 6498 tourbillon? He incorporated the tourbillon into the existing ebauche and free sprung a balance from an old Venus movement. I recently ran across an article in Uhren Magazine where they tested its performance. I would be curious how it compares to the performance of a conventional 6498. It fell short of chronometer specifications for most results.
> 
> magazine article (in German):
> http://www.watchtime.net/search/show.php?pdf=UM_2009_03_058.pdf&terms=habring
> ...


Philip,

Habring's watches are great in that he can incorporate a tourbillon as a module into almost any watch. I've seen a lot of pictures of his earlier work and most of the tourbillon he made were module types where they would simply go into the watch with almost no modification. However that means that he's adding extra wheels into the train, my watch will have the same amount of wheels, the fourth wheel pinion in my watch gets turned into the tourbillon pinion and the tourbillon carries the rest of the train, where as in Habring's watch the train goes from all the way through to the escape wheel pinion, then there's the extra wheel for the tourbillon, then the extra fourth wheel and then finally the actual escape wheel pinion. So he's essentially adding 2 extra wheels and pinions, the escape wheel simply moves from the original spot and into the carriage, but the pinion stays in the original watch, so an extra pinion is added.

You can also see that Habring uses brass for the tourbillon carriage itself and doesn't use an upper bridge, the brass first of all has more mass than steel, second the carriage isn't as delicate as a steel one could be (as delicate as mine is), and third, the lack of bridge on the upper carriage means he must be using ball bearings under the carriage and then the components to go with the bearings add even more weight.

If you want to compare my watch to someone elses, then Habring's watch isn't a good one for comparison since it's completely different. Sure, it may use the same movement as a canvass, but it's not really the same thing. The closest thing i can think of to my watch would be Christian Klings No. 6 tourbillon, he uses the 6497/8 as the basis for most of his work, but his No. 6 definitely resembles my watch more than anything i can think of since it's a tourbillon with upper bridge on the carriage and the fourth wheel pinion was turned into the tourbillon pinion and required no extra wheels or pinions.

As for the powerspring, i'll see if it needs to be changed when i've finished the watch. At this point i have no idea, but i have a feeling that it might not need to be any stronger.

-Paul


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Quick update:

I've been working on engraving.

I've been practicing here and there for the past 2 days.

I just did this this morning on a brass tweezer.


























Would anyone here by chance have any practical advice about engraving? I'm using a palm-pushing method which means i don't use an engraving block or even a vice, i just held the tweezer with my left hand and engraved with my right.


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

I took my first engraving course about 20 years ago, and over the course of my career have done a bit of it.

My first bit of advice would be: Practice makes perfect. Be prepared to do a lot of practice on plates before you approach your first real piece.

The other is to make sure that your gravers are correctly sized, sharpened, gripped, and that you are using the correct graver for the job.

The last is that you need to make sure that your workpiece is properly secured. That is key to achieving control and precision in your engraving.

You do not need an engraver's block. You can affix small parts to a pitch stick and brace them against a bench pin, for example.


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## sixties.nut (Apr 5, 2009)

I've recently been researching Broaches and on all the sites gravers are listed within the search results. Sean, thanks for turning that light on for me with your post.

Paul, nice work for freehand! If it were me, I'd be nursing a poked hole in the palm about now!


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Great article Paul.

It is very interesting to see someone with such dedication producing
a tourbllon watch and I've no doubt that you'll have this watch ticking
in no time.

Do you have any expectations for accuracy of timekeeping for your creation
or will you be happy just to see it tick?...if I could build one of these and just
get it ticking then I'd be very happy indeed.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

radger said:


> Great article Paul.
> 
> It is very interesting to see someone with such dedication producing
> a tourbllon watch and I've no doubt that you'll have this watch ticking
> ...


Thanks Radger,

Accuracy is important, the point of the watch is to be accurate and also have a tourbillon, so the tourbillon is secondary. The point of having the large free-sprung balance wheel with overcoil hairspring and very light carriage is to achieve great accuracy. This is also the reason why i chose to use the train from an already existing watch that can be brought to cosc normally.

That said, i don't know how accurate it will be with the new oscillator and overcoil in the hairspring, but since the train is already been proven for accuracy, i'm hoping it'll be as accurate as a well regulated 6497/8 or better.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

seanp said:


> I took my first engraving course about 20 years ago, and over the course of my career have done a bit of it.
> 
> My first bit of advice would be: Practice makes perfect. Be prepared to do a lot of practice on plates before you approach your first real piece.
> 
> ...


Sean, thanks for the advice, i've already tried out a few different types of shapes for my graver, i just took a lathe graver i wasn't using and reshaped the tip, and i think i have that covered since all i'm doing is simple numbers and letters. I used to talk with the jewelery and engraving instructor at my school during my stay there so i picked up some things here and there from him since i mentioned i was interested in learning engraving, but this is the first time i've actually tried it.

I may skip the pitch stick idea and just use a bowl of some sort filled with pitch, this method i learned from a Japanese engraver, it works essentially the same as an engravers ball vice, it's just the piece you're engraving is held lower to the base.

Here are a few shots of the graver tip geometry.


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

Paul,

Your graver geometry looks good. You have the right idea.

I am not sure that a pitch bowl is the ideal solution for watch sized parts. Traditionally pitch bowls - and for that matter - pitch plates - are used for repousse. Hammer and tool.

A stick braced on a bench pin is much more controllable for fine hand work.

Here are some gravers from my desk drawer:










Inside the house, I only use them for wax carving so some of them are short, but they are good examples of what I want to talk about and that is handle shape. I prefer ball handles:










I find them to be the most comfortable and controllable.

If you are using a pitch bowl, your engraving tool will bottom out on long cuts so you will want to use a split mushroom handle:


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

Here is the split mushroom:


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Sean, you're absolutely right about a pitch bowl, i didn't even think of that but it would have been painfully obvious had i went ahead with that idea.

I may just go ahead and get an engraving block then. What sort of methods do you use often for holding small pieces (other than the pitch stick idea)? I'm not really worried about the costs of tools either, so i'm open to any other ideas.


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

Engraving blocks often come with an attachment that you can mount on the pins to hold small parts.

I like the GRS MagnaBlock:

http://www.grstools.com/workholding/

GRS also makes the benchmate system, which is very useful:

http://www.grstools.com/benchmate-for-jewelers/classic/benchmate-setters-package.html

Jewelry supply stores also used to sell small hand vises for engravers. These usually consist of a split circular steel pallet with holes drilled in it to fit pins for workholding. They very much resemble the jaws of a ball vise mounted on a handle.

However, I do not think that you can beat a pitch stick for holding very small parts. There are three reasons for this:

1. The pitch stick will hold parts very firmly without exerting any force on the part. Very thin, delicate parts can be engraved in this manner, when the force required to hold them in a vise might very well deform or crush them. Consider that the pins of vise only contact the work on a few very small points. The pressure needed to hold a work piece on those small points must be comparatively high.

2. The pitch stick will support the work. A piece in a vise will often have nothing underneath it, which can allow it to move or flex while working on it, or even bend. That won't happen on a pitch stick.

3. Any irregular shaped piece can be mounted easily on a pitch stick. You don't have to mess around with pins, etc... There is, for example, no easy way to mount a solid gear wheel on a vise without damaging the teeth. Not so on a pitch stick.

It looks primitive and cheap, but the fact is that there are some things you just cannot improve on. Nor are you confined to pitch. Orange shellac, and dopping wax, among other things, are used for the same purpose.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

seanp said:


> Engraving blocks often come with an attachment that you can mount on the pins to hold small parts.
> 
> I like the GRS MagnaBlock:
> 
> ...


That's exactly the sort of insight i was looking for. Those points explain the benefit of a pitch stick very well. I'll go ahead and get some pitch sticks then.

I was wondering though, would i be able to use an engraving block with pitch? The reason why i'm interested in an engraving block is because of the smooth motion you can have with them, whereas a pitch stick would still be more or less free hand.


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## seanp (Jul 17, 2010)

Yep, no problem there. Get a small piece of high density wood, like ebony, or even walnut, say 5cm x 5cm, maybe 2.5cm or better thick. Drill a bunch of 2.5mm holes into the top of it. Then melt your pitch into the top and proceed from there. This "pitch plate" can be easily mounted on an engraving ball.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

seanp said:


> Yep, no problem there. Get a small piece of high density wood, like ebony, or even walnut, say 5cm x 5cm, maybe 2.5cm or better thick. Drill a bunch of 2.5mm holes into the top of it. Then melt your pitch into the top and proceed from there. This "pitch plate" can be easily mounted on an engraving ball.


Well there we go. I'll get the pitch sticks anyways, just to see how it would be without the engraving ball, but i'm sure the engraving ball will aid in accuracy and a smooth cut.


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## jobryan (Apr 27, 2010)

wow very impressive:-!


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I just finished shaping the click.

Started with O1 flat stock again.

This is pretty much how they looked after getting cut out of the flat stock. I'm figuring out the positioning of the click first; which you can see on the pillar plate.









Now here's the click being fitted against the ratchet wheel.









Once i got the important part of the click finished the rest was pretty simple. Now here's the click spring being fitted. I gauge the dimensions of these parts by eye so i had to make some brass pins to hold the parts in their exact place while still being easily placed onto the watch and removed.









The important parts of the click spring have been shaped, so after this i hardened them.









Now after hardening, i grind them perfectly flat to the exact thickness i need, then i finish the shape of the click spring.

















All they need now is beveling and polishing.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Nice job, you are very adept at cutting and shaping these tiny parts
from tool steel. I'd be interested to try out these diamond saw blades and
files that you use if you could please tell me where to acquire them.


----------



## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

radger said:


> Nice job, you are very adept at cutting and shaping these tiny parts
> from tool steel. I'd be interested to try out these diamond saw blades and
> files that you use if you could please tell me where to acquire them.


I buy PFERD Inc. diamond needle files for watch work. I'm sure there's more than one distributor so i'm not going to recommend any particular shop, but a google search for PFERD should give some results. I buy a lot of other types of files and burs from them as well.

The thing is though, i don't use files to shape such delicate parts. A good watchmaking school should teach you how to shape delicate springs and levers.


----------



## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

P. Loatman said:


> The thing is though, i don't use files to shape such delicate parts. A good watchmaking school should teach you how to shape delicate springs and levers.


Thank you for putting me on to the PFERD diamond files.

I must have misinterpreted a previous post you made as I thought
you cut and shaped this hardened tool steel that you use with these
diamond files and diamond blades for a jewellers saw.
If i were to make a spring or a click from steel I use ordinary Swiss
files and harden the steel after the fact.
I won't be going to a watchmaking school to learn how you do this with
hardened tool steel but my guess is you are using a Dremel with
diamond tooling.


----------



## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

radger said:


> Thank you for putting me on to the PFERD diamond files.
> 
> I must have misinterpreted a previous post you made as I thought
> you cut and shaped this hardened tool steel that you use with these
> ...


Double post.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

radger said:


> Thank you for putting me on to the PFERD diamond files.
> 
> I must have misinterpreted a previous post you made as I thought
> you cut and shaped this hardened tool steel that you use with these
> ...


I use the diamond files for the tourbillon carriage. I don't own a Dremel, that would be way too uncontrollable anyways, it would make a lot more sense to just use a file than a Dremel. Everything i make that doesn't involve my piercing saw or files i make on my lathe, the method i use to make these makes it very easy to be accurate in your shaping, so accurate in fact that i can make pallet forks the same way. Also, at the thickness of this click spring, if i had shaped it first then hardened it, it would have definitely distorted either during the shaping or during the hardening and become useless, i don't harden them before the final shaping for no reason, it's the same reason why you wouldn't harden a balance staff after turning it.


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## wrigh003 (Mar 6, 2009)

I got turned onto this board a while back, have always been impressed by mechanical things, and the precision required to make a watch has always fascinated me. I recently indulged myself with a not-expensive Asian mechanical watch, partly because I missed having a watch on my wrist, partly because of the mechanical aspect.

Popped into this thread today on a "whao, that dude is making a tourbillon himself? From scratch? No way!" whim, and am suitably impressed. I have no idea what you're doing in there, but I'm convinced it's probably related to magic in some way. Very impressive, and I'll be looking at my semi-mass-produced watch a lot differently now.


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## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

Seriously cool work, way beyond my skills. You are officially the movement master.


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## sixties.nut (Apr 5, 2009)

dirtvictim said:


> You are officially the movement master.


And to think; I taught him everything he knows!

Well about matchbox cars anyway. :-d


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## brokeone! (Mar 6, 2009)

to tell u frankly...i am amazed by your ingenuity and
resourcefulness...watchmaker like dufour...correct me if i am wrong...design and built and finishes only the movement....and he buys the case and the dial from other sources...including...i guess...the jewels because jewels as far as i am concerned cannot be made in a small shop...and he lives in switzerland where all the necessary parts that he could not manufacture can be bought...bear in mind that dufour is considered by many as the best living watchmaker...and he is a full time watchmaker and he has never make a tourbillon...but...i apologise for my over-amazement...you are trying to make a tourbillon and the best part is everything is going well that it seems one these days it will be in a completed form...you reminded me of one strange buddy of mine when i was studying at a college years ago...he took mathematics as an elective (optional subject) when everybody stay away from it...and he scores an A...to this day he remains a unique human specimen in my heart...i simply adore him...i apologise if i happens in any way offended you...but i cannot hide my amazement anymore.....


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

sixties.nut said:


> And to think; I taught him everything he knows!
> 
> Well about matchbox cars anyway. :-d


Ah, yes, diligent training in the way of Matchbox cars.



brokeone! said:


> to tell u frankly...i am amazed by your ingenuity and
> resourcefulness...watchmaker like dufour...correct me if i am wrong...design and built and finishes only the movement....and he buys the case and the dial from other sources...including...i guess...the jewels because jewels as far as i am concerned cannot be made in a small shop...and he lives in switzerland where all the necessary parts that he could not manufacture can be bought...bear in mind that dufour is considered by many as the best living watchmaker...and he is a full time watchmaker and he has never make a tourbillon...but...i apologise for my over-amazement...you are trying to make a tourbillon and the best part is everything is going well that it seems one these days it will be in a completed form...you reminded me of one strange buddy of mine when i was studying at a college years ago...he took mathematics as an elective (optional subject) when everybody stay away from it...and he scores an A...to this day he remains a unique human specimen in my heart...i simply adore him...i apologise if i happens in any way offended you...but i cannot hide my amazement anymore.....


First off, thank you! Second, most watchmakers nowadays use CNC because it's just plain better and quicker, not that any of the independents can't make watches the way i'm doing, they just don't see the point anymore since it's slower and doesn't benefit them in any way compared to CNC at that point in their careers. Even Dufour sends his plates out to be done in CNC, then he does the finishing, the rest of the parts he makes himself other than escapement parts and jewels, as well as the case. However, Dufour, like pretty much all other independents that produce their own movements, they all learned how to make watches the way i'm doing now, because when they were young they didn't have CNC readily available to them, either due to availability or just the costs. I don't plan on using basic tools forever, but i should at least learn how to do it the hard way first instead of jumping right to CNC. You have to learn to crawl before you do a 200 metre sprint.

Also, i might as well take this opportunity to give an update. The update is that there is no update, i haven't been working on the watch since i finished the click and click spring, i did a little here and there, but i've recently become employed with a really great company, doing really cool work, for a lot of green paper, so the last week or so has been spent getting settled with work, but i should have my equipment set up sometime next week, then i'll continue with the watch on weekends and after work.

Thanks everyone, oh, and i wouldn't call myself the "Movement master" i still don't know how most grande complications work.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I finally got back to my watch after a bit of a hiatus. I had to remake a few parts in the set works and here's what i've ended up with so far.

This clutch lever is original and hasn't been remade.









This set lever spring is the second one i've made, i ended up grinding the original down too thin, it may have still worked in the watch but i'd rather not use sub-par parts just for convenience.









The clutch lever (on the left) is another re-make, the first one distorted during quenching.









Most of these parts still need tempering and their final shapes given.

Now for an interesting part which will end up adding another jewel to the watch, making this now a 20 jewel movement. The set wheel is from the canvas watch, but i had to modify it to fit the jewel, the jewel is snuggly fit and requires a bit of force to remove, but isn't a real friction fit.

























I bought a new tool recently as well, i'll get pictures of it when i receive it, it's a very rare thing.

Also, here's something to freak you guys out. It wandered onto my bench a couple of weeks ago and i kept it for a few hours, i also fed it a bit of melon, then let it go outside. It's the strangest insect i've seen in person before. It eats with the long needle-like protrusion that it has extended towards the melon in the picture. Maybe someone here can identify it?


----------



## Guest (Sep 13, 2010)

What a great topic ! |>

Keep up this good work, Paul, it's impressive.

I have a set of small Vallorbe files, but I could be interested in those Pferd you're using. I'm located in Europe, but can't find any local reseller. I did email Pferd, waiting for a reply...


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Misterpeter said:


> What a great topic ! |>
> 
> Keep up this good work, Paul, it's impressive.
> 
> I have a set of small Vallorbe files, but I could be interested in those Pferd you're using. I'm located in Europe, but can't find any local reseller. I did email Pferd, waiting for a reply...


Thanks,

Pferd is definitely a good brand, they've been around for a long while making files. They sell to every continent so they should have a supplier near you, they're located in Germany so i'm pretty sure they would have plenty of suppliers in Europe.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

As ever Paul, beautiful work. You inspire us all.

The photo of the insect is really interesting. I'm surprised at how translucent it is. This suggests to me that it also spends a lot of time in the water.


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## DImGR (Jun 1, 2007)

impressive


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks everyone,

Somewhere else, Not sure about the bug, there isn't much water near here, and it hasn't rained in close to 4 months. It was very translucent though.

Here's that new tool i mentioned, it'll help me tremendously with finishing, finishing of screws to be exact. It's a screw polisher, it can polish the head, the sides of the heads, and even the tips of screws. Mine is made by Lorch, Schmidt & Co., same with my 6mm lathe, i'm not sure if anyone else made these.

Here it is in the box. It's missing a few collets but i can make collets like this easily, although i doubt i'll have to, despite missing a few, it's still a good selection of sizes.









Here's a shot showing the polishing disks. In order of the polishing process it goes from steel, brass, then wood.









Here's the main part of the tool, the drawbar sort of thing rests into the arms of the base, which has to be held by a vise, the drawbar spins freely but very accurately.









Now, these are used to polish the tips, you hold the screw in these brass holders with the threaded shaft securing the screw from the head side.

















Here's one of the collets, it's held in another steel collet which is on the drawbar.









Finally, here are some shots of a screw head being polished, it's just the top of the head, but i went through the whole process fairly quickly and it polished it surprisingly well.

The steel disk.









This is the screw after the steel disk.









Here it is after the brass disk.









Here it is after the wood disk.









The screw isn't perfect, but i didn't spend much time on each process, if i were doing this on screws that i plan on using in my watch i would take the extra time, of course.

Also, here's how the sides of the head can be polished. The portion which holds the polishing disks can swivel which allows the side of the disks to be used against the sides of the screw head.

























Here's also some more of my watch. This is a bridge that covers the set and minute wheel, it holds the pivot for the set wheel, but only holds the minute wheel down. This is obviously not finished yet.

















Someone i recently met has also requested i make a small series of watches for him, i'd be using pocket watch movements and putting them into wrist watch cases, but it won't be as simple as the Hamilton 10 size watches i've done before, this time each movement will be hand finished by myself and a sock system will be added to each watch. I'm not sure exactly what i'll do as far as finishing goes but it should be interesting, so keep an eye out for that in the near future.

I should also mention that it'll be only 7 watches, one of them i plan on keeping for myself, i'm not entirely sure, but i think the other person involved might want one as well, so maybe 5, possibly 6 of these will be for sale, so if anyone is interested just send me a message and i'll get back to you when i have more information.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

Beautiful workmanship as ever.

It's a real treat to see an actual screw polisher and see how one works. I've seen line cuts of them in older books, but never seen an actual machine, let alone seen one in operation. Given how chewed up some of the screws are on "new" watches just arrived from the factory in Switzerland that pass through my hands, I wish I had something like it. A particular problem are case back screws which tend to get badly abused even during assembly.

I have a variety of pin vises to hold them. I polish the heads first with Cratex, then Zam and finally with Rio Grande's stainless steel yellow polish, though I find Polinox works even better.

Let us see the PW movements in wrist watch cases. It should be wonderful.


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Somewhere else said:


> Beautiful workmanship as ever.
> 
> It's a real treat to see an actual screw polisher and see how one works. I've seen line cuts of them in older books, but never seen an actual machine, let alone seen one in operation. Given how chewed up some of the screws are on "new" watches just arrived from the factory in Switzerland that pass through my hands, I wish I had something like it. A particular problem are case back screws which tend to get badly abused even during assembly.
> 
> ...


If you're interested in seeing the screw polisher in action, here's something more than just pictures. YouTube - Watchmaking, polishing and blueing screws, Schrauben polieren und bläuen

That's Steffen Pahlow, one of the people who really inspired me to start making my watch. I'm pretty sure his is the exact same as mine, most likely also made by Lorch. I sent him a picture of mine, i'm sure it'll be familiar to him.

We haven't decided on the movements yet, the other party involved will be sourcing everything and sending it to me, he has a contact in Germany who can make us the cases, so we first have to get the cases sourced, then i'll be receiving the movements and cases for refinishing.

Also, i use Enkay polishing compounds now, but i'm going to get some industrial quality diamond powder to use with my screw polisher.


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## kfed84 (Feb 27, 2009)

I was watching the show Pawn Stars on the History Channel here in the US, and a guy actually came into the store with a turn of the century model screw polisher just like this one. He said his father was a retired watchmaker and said that he should try seeing if he could get anything for it. The son was clueless as to what it was (as was I at the time), and they had to call in a watchmaker just to tell them what it was. 

Unfortunately, they didn't buy it, as it was too much of a specialty item and the watchmaker said most people use lathes and other techniques nowadays instead for screw polishing. 

Anyway, you should check out the show if you haven't seen it before. It's quite entertaining seeing all of the interesting things and oddities that people bring in!

Paul: Do you have any pictures of the previous series of watches that you did?


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

If sourcing the cases is the question they should contact Fricker GmbH. I buy ten cases at a time from them. In these smaller quantities its more expensive, but the quality it top rate.


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## mars-red (Sep 1, 2008)

This is truly inspirational! For some time, I have had the goal of manufacturing my own, simple, hand-wind movement with no complications. Seeing work like this really gets me motivated!


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## Vincero (Jul 17, 2008)

incredible work. Can't wait to see the finished product,

Cheers,

Zac


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I've been a bit busy and kind of forgot to keep updating this website.

Since i got the screw polisher i finished the carriage parts and started working on my own pallet fork.

First here's the hairspring stud and the stud holder:


















































































































Here it is on the upper carriage (the upper carriage in this picture is not finished, there are photos of the finished part below.)


































Now, the finished carriage parts, the rim is very thin, it's a little more than the thickness of a human hair, all of it has been beveled and all the beveling has been black polished:


















































Now the pallet:










































































The pallet is almost finished, i still need to do a bit more on the polish, but it's very close, it should be done tomorrow.


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## Vincero (Jul 17, 2008)

Brilliant!


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## Rikthewatchmaker (Feb 5, 2011)

*Re: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*

Keep it coming I am totally facinated because it's hard as a watchmaker to have any exposure to tourbillons to work on let alone look at. Great work Rik


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*



Rikthewatchmaker said:


> Keep it coming I am totally facinated because it's hard as a watchmaker to have any exposure to tourbillons to work on let alone look at. Great work Rik


Thanks. If this fascinates you, wait till you see my next project, I've already designed it in my head. I also might help a friend of mine with a dual train watch that will have 3 other complications, i'll be sure to document everything from both projects.

-Paul


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## dpn (Feb 9, 2011)

P. Loatman said:


> Also, here's something to freak you guys out. It wandered onto my bench a couple of weeks ago and i kept it for a few hours, i also fed it a bit of melon, then let it go outside. It's the strangest insect i've seen in person before. It eats with the long needle-like protrusion that it has extended towards the melon in the picture. Maybe someone here can identify it?


The insect is a nymph (juvenile) true bug (Order:Hemiptera). You keyed right into one of the characteristic anatomical features of the true bugs: a nice piercing, sucking mouthpart. Other true bugs include assassin bugs (which are carnivorous), and stink bugs (which suck plant juices).

Sent from December 22, 2012.


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## Nyegaard (Jan 18, 2011)

This is beyond amazing. Thank you for sharing the process.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*



P. Loatman said:


> Thanks. If this fascinates you, wait till you see my next project, I've already designed it in my head. I also might help a friend of mine with a dual train watch that will have 3 other complications, i'll be sure to document everything from both projects.
> 
> -Paul


Nice to see your tourbillon project still moving along. Your re-designed carriage looks the biz
and your finishing skills have obviously moved on leaps and bounds...when do you think you'll
have your watch ticking?...I'm looking forward to seeing this up and working.


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## ed21x (Feb 11, 2011)

just repeating the amazement of everyone else in this thread at your impressive work! looking forward to when the movement starts spinning


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## preachermanpaul (Jan 25, 2011)

*Re: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*

Look forward to seeing the finished project! Good Luck!!


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

*Re: My Tourbillon (unfinished)*



radger said:


> Nice to see your tourbillon project still moving along. Your re-designed carriage looks the biz
> and your finishing skills have obviously moved on leaps and bounds...when do you think you'll
> have your watch ticking?...I'm looking forward to seeing this up and working.


Not exactly sure, but it should be sometime this summer, the carriage is essentially finished now, i just need to do some fine-tuning and the rest of the watch is pretty simple comparatively.

I haven't done much since the pallet, i recently was loaned a copy of "Watchmaking" and "The Practical Watch Escapement" from my good friend David Walter, it's interesting to see so many things he explains in the book that i had to learn on my own because i couldn't find a copy of Watchmaking this whole time. The books have helped me to better understand how to make the next watch i'm planning.

Here are some pictures of the finished pallet.










































-Paul


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## Rikthewatchmaker (Feb 5, 2011)

Very cool can't wait to see it running Rik


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

I was doing the final adjustments to my tourbillon carriage this weekend, i assembled the entire thing, but the hairspring stud holder broke during assembly, so i have to make another one, but that's not a big deal. The rest of the components work excellently and there are no clearance issues.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

That's an amazing production Paul.
I suppose this whole assembly needs to be in perfect poise, do
you have a strategy for achieving this or is it near enough?


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

radger said:


> That's an amazing production Paul.
> I suppose this whole assembly needs to be in perfect poise, do
> you have a strategy for achieving this or is it near enough?


Radger,

I will be poising it, i have to remake the stud holder first, but i have poising weights similar to that used on the balance wheel but larger and they fit into the threaded holes on the opposite side of the pallet and escape wheel. You won't actually see the square area that they'll thread into, you'll just see 2 screw heads floating there. I'll try to finish the new stud holder today and have pictures tomorrow.

Thanks for the interest.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

As ever, support, unstinting admiration, long protracted applause.


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## JohnInMinnesota (Jan 11, 2011)

*It's Art. *And mighty impressive.

Thank you for sharing!
John


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks guys.

I made a new stud holder and have the tourbillon together again. Everything functions as expected, i need to polish up the screws and clean the whole thing, but it's finally finished. Now i can continue with the rest of the watch and it's all smooth sailing from here.


















I made a short video of the carriage with the balance oscillating, but i don't have the time to upload it right now, maybe tomorrow.


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## Vincero (Jul 17, 2008)

I want one . 

Really great work!


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## Watchfixer (May 27, 2011)

This is my first post and there is no word for what you have created. Wow, and keep going!

PS where can I learn about creating parts without filing? I had to make part of pin pallet lever for a chiming clock with the magnetic suspension balance, this one with wire through the balance assembly with two jewels, and cylinder hairspring that breathes alternatively. Reason I had accidentally dropped that pallet lever and stepped on when looking for it.  

Cheers, Watchfixer


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## pexyme (May 22, 2011)

(Thunderous applause, crowds cheering)

Thanks Paul for such a terrific thread. It's all a bit surreal watching your painstaking assembly and then a little bit of insect education all-in-one!

(Trumpets blaring, vuvuzelas honking, the cacophony is deafening.......)


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

The book "Twenty-First Century Watchmaking" by William O. Smith, Jr. describes the making
of parts in a lathe using grinding methodology rather than filing. You need a watchmakers lathe, tiny grinding wheels
and slit saws and 'saw table which fits into the rest.

That was unlucky to stand on your part, I'm familiar with the tiny crunch you feel at the same
time as your heart sinks into your stomach.


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## watchknight (Jan 10, 2010)

radger said:


> The book "Twenty-First Century Watchmaking" by William O. Smith, Jr. describes the making
> of parts in a lathe using grinding methodology rather than filing. You need a watchmakers lathe, tiny grinding wheels
> and slit saws and 'saw table which fits into the rest.
> 
> ...


the 21th century book 1 is a great book to read. It shows with alot of pictures how one can easily make a spring, detent spring and most parts with the lathe. 
Can I ask paul, is the tourbillon you are making now is this a karussell ?


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## HelloNasty1 (Jul 8, 2007)

Really impressive, thank you for sharing!


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## Mike_NavyNuke (Oct 10, 2010)

One of the best watch threads I ever read!
Good luck with finishing that tourby!


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## geoffbot (Mar 12, 2011)

Absolutely fantastic thread. Truly fascinating to see all those tiny parts created and compiled. Good work


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## Spit161 (Oct 9, 2009)

Don't usually post on this forum, but this is special enough to warrant a post:
Absolutely fantastic. I admire your skill and perseverance- congratulations!

cheers.


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## Rafgas (Nov 12, 2011)

First of all, wow, im a watchmaker that makes tourbillon watches so i know what you are dealing with, atleast partially, because, ofc, i dont saw the parts out from the blocks of steel, i get them machined already. So wow and bravo, i agree with almost all your choices. The cage looks lovely, very nice design choices. Also cool idea for modifying the pallet fork, smart. 

There is only one idea i would like to ask you about though, its the click. Since you have a pretty short travel click which simply pivots like that, arent you afraid that when winding, it could get stuck wound so tight you cant wind it that little bit to be able to release the click? Its not a huge problem of course, but it adds that little extra to make life easier for you when assembling it, and most importantly, when regulating it, when you to take the cage out of the movement a couple of times for testing. 

Like i said, thats the only thing i thought of amidst all the amazement, really cool stuff. 

p.s. you have huge cojones if you want to engrave it yourself!


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

*Bookmarked!* (and saved to the hard drive!)

Well that's set a benchmark to aim for and no mistake! Few things impress me these days but boy this certainly does.

As a complete (but eager) tyro each photo sees my jaw descend sequentialy ever lower.  o| Where does one begin to place limits on the praise due here?
On a more prosaic note, do you have a ball park price on the pieces you intend to craft? I will not and cannot use the term 'manufacture' in this context without feeling a twinge of embarassment at the possible insult to your obvious and prodigious ability. It's your rev.2 I'm now really keen to see.

(Guv dusts off his collection of superlatives in preparation)


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Rafgas said:


> First of all, wow, im a watchmaker that makes tourbillon watches so i know what you are dealing with, atleast partially, because, ofc, i dont saw the parts out from the blocks of steel, i get them machined already. So wow and bravo, i agree with almost all your choices. The cage looks lovely, very nice design choices. Also cool idea for modifying the pallet fork, smart.
> 
> There is only one idea i would like to ask you about though, its the click. Since you have a pretty short travel click which simply pivots like that, arent you afraid that when winding, it could get stuck wound so tight you cant wind it that little bit to be able to release the click? Its not a huge problem of course, but it adds that little extra to make life easier for you when assembling it, and most importantly, when regulating it, when you to take the cage out of the movement a couple of times for testing.
> 
> ...


Thanks,

The click isn't really a problem, it may seem like an issue if you're not familiar with older pieces, but i've worked on several pieces with fusee and they're all pretty much the same, the ratchet for the barrel is only really there so that the lower end power for the spring isn't used, but when you wind a fusee up fully and it won't run down at all then you're essentially faced with the same issue that you're talking about, and it's quite common with fusee since they're so old you'll find them in bad condition where you have to manually wind it down from a fully wound state. What i do with a fusee is i just move the ratchet out of the way (if it doesn't use a spring) or simply remove it all together while keeping a key on the barrel arbor, sometimes the arbor isn't even long enough for a key and then you need a special tool that you can easily make that grabs the ratchet wheel from opposite sides. This is the same way i would deal with the issue with my watch, simply remove the click and it's spring then wind it down with the crown, it would actually be much easier with my watch because of the crown, you can just imagine how difficult this would be if you had a marine chronometer, those things have incredibly powerful springs and if let down too fast it would absolutely ruin the detent and balance as well as probably most of the train.



The Guvnah said:


> *Bookmarked!* (and saved to the hard drive!)
> 
> Well that's set a benchmark to aim for and no mistake! Few things impress me these days but boy this certainly does.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the compliments. This tourbillon, however, is already going into the scrap pile, metaphorically, at least. I'm starting over with it because this one needs new pillars, and they need to be re-made perfectly to match each other and they need to be perfectly concentric, which is more than troublesome to do. So, my next tourbillon won't use pillars at all, it'll be similar to Breguet's original tourbillon carriages, and i'm just speculating but i think i know how Breguet's workers made his tourbillon, he was limited with the tooling and machinery available to him, that's why they were always two-armed and never three or more, so although i'm using the same principle to negate the use of pillars, i won't be making my carriage the same way Breguet had his made, so it won't look anything like a Breguet tourbillon.

As for price, i don't have an exact price yet, but it'll be comparable to similar things. I've decided that this particular piece will be a demonstration of my ability and so will never be available for purchase, but a similar piece could be made for anyone interested. I can make unique pieces for anyone interested as well, i've worked on several types of watches and have made parts to replace completely missing components in complications and even escapements, so i can do many things, including repeaters/sonneries from scratch. I'm always interested in a challenge to make something.

Thanks again for the compliments everyone, it's all appreciated.

-Paul


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## Magura (Jun 7, 2014)

So, what happened next?

Magura


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## P. Loatman (Mar 22, 2009)

Magura said:


> So, what happened next?
> 
> Magura


I restarted again. I've posted progress on what i've been working on, on my blog: Paul Loatman - Personal Horological Journal

It goes back a few years. Thanks for the interest!


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## Magura (Jun 7, 2014)

Thanks for the heads up.

Magura


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## ironmarshal (Jul 27, 2012)

Bravo! I'm stunned at the work you've done. At some point I hope to own a tourbillion, but you have taken the dream to a whole new level.

Iron Marshal


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