# Breitling Cal 17?



## Mac

I'm thinking of getting a Ti Seawolf and understand they have a Cal 17 movement?
What are these movements like?
Where do they stand in the Breitling line up, lower end, mid or high end?
How do they compare to others such as Omega c1120 (ala 2254.50) or Co axial? or whatever actually?

Cheers.

Mac.


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## rbt

ETA 2824. Reworked to Breitling's high standards and made to run within COSC specs. Good tough movement.


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## WHJ

Anyone know what exactly is done to the 2824? Is it just polished or do they replace any parts?


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## autofiend

WHJ said:


> Anyone know what exactly is done to the 2824? Is it just polished or do they replace any parts?


Do a search and you will find much information in this regard.

In a nutshell, it is my understanding several main components are changed. I believe Breitling starts with the high grade 2824-2 (there are 4 grades of this movement: standard, elabore, high and chronometer) ebauche and adds some custom components. From a tangible perspective, the B17 seems much quieter when compared to watches with standard 2824-2s.

As a side note, my Doxa Sub has a "regular" high grade 2824-2 and it is actually marginally more accurate then my COSC 'fish.


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## WHJ

autofiend said:


> Do a search and you will find much information in this regard.
> 
> In a nutshell, it is my understanding several main components are changed. I believe Breitling starts with the high grade 2824-2 (there are 4 grades of this movement: standard, elabore, high and chronometer) ebauche and adds some custom components. From a tangible perspective, the B17 seems much quieter when compared to watches with standard 2824-2s.
> 
> As a side note,* my Doxa Sub has a "regular" high grade 2824-2 and it is actually marginally more accurate then my COSC 'fish*.


This seems to be pretty common from what I have seen. My "chronometre certifie" runs 8 seconds fast a day. Pretty disappointing for a $2500.00 watch. You would think they would at least check them before they left the factory, but I guess not.


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## rik

WHJ said:


> This seems to be pretty common from what I have seen. My "chronometre certifie" runs 8 seconds fast a day. Pretty disappointing for a $2500.00 watch. You would think they would at least check them before they left the factory, but I guess not.


AFAIK COSC test each movement (which have to be submitted with a plain black on white dial I seem to remember) otherwise they wouldn't get a certificate.

EDIT: From the COSC website:

"Each chronometer is unique, identified by a number engraved on its movement and a certification number given by the COSC.
Each movement is individually tested for several consecutive days, in 5 positions and at 3 temperatures.
Each movement is individually measured. Any watch with the denomination "chronometer" is provided with a certified movement."


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## WHJ

rik said:


> AFAIK COSC test each movement (which have to be submitted with a plain black on white dial I seem to remember) otherwise they wouldn't get a certificate.


Maybe, but what good is the certificate? I have seen several posts of people with Cal 17's that run out of spec, all brand new watches. As far as I am concerned I have a piece of paper that says I have a certified chronometer and a watch that says otherwise. I love my Steelfish, but I at least expected it to run in spec for the money spent. I've got $300 automatics that are more accurate, and I'm not kidding.


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## red_wagen

Sometimes it takes a while to settle in. In my case almost a full year before it ran within spec. I kid you not. It was running like +30 secs/day at times. Still runs on the fast side but it's within tolerance now :-!


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## WHJ

rik said:


> EDIT: From the COSC website:
> 
> "Each chronometer is unique, identified by a number engraved on its movement and a certification number given by the COSC.
> Each movement is individually tested for several consecutive days, in 5 positions and at 3 temperatures.
> Each movement is individually measured. Any watch with the denomination "chronometer" is provided with a certified movement."


Well then the only explanation is that when Breitling does whatever they do to the movement is causes it to shift out of spec.


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## L.O. Little

I have a nearly two year old Colt Auto. The Cal 17 movement in it is extremely accurate, gains maybe 5.-1 second a day. It's been that way for at least the last year or so.

IMO, the Cal 17 is one of the finest examples of the 2824 movement out there. |>


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## O2AFAC67

WHJ said:


> Well then the only explanation is that when Breitling does whatever they do to the movement is causes it to shift out of spec.


Well then do you have empirical evidence to substantiate your explanation? :-s Oh, you have _"seen several posts of people with Cal 17's that run out of spec, all brand new watches." _ Would you mind researching those posts you have seen and post the pertinent data here? I'm hoping we can get enough relevant information gathered to forward on to the manufacturor so the faults can be addressed. BTW, the ebauches purchased from ETA to be completely disassembled and rebuilt are the highest grade available. The balance is replaced with a glycodur balance and the mainspring with a nivarox version. Many other internal parts are replaced and finely finished as well and the completed movement will easily regulate to the -4/+6 sec/day COSC standard. Between the time a movement receives its COSC certification and a customer receives the finished timepiece, there are a number of factors which can possibly affect the rate regulation but one of those factors is certainly *not* _"at least check them before they left the factory"..._ o|
Best,
Ron


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## WHJ

O2AFAC67 said:


> Well then do you have empirical evidence to substantiate your explanation? :-s Oh, you have _"seen several posts of people with Cal 17's that run out of spec, all brand new watches." _ Would you mind researching those posts you have seen and post the pertinent data here? I'm hoping we can get enough relevant information gathered to forward on to the manufacturor so the faults can be addressed. BTW, the ebauches purchased from ETA to be completely disassembled and rebuilt are the highest grade available. The balance is replaced with a glycodur balance and the mainspring with a nivarox version. Many other internal parts are replaced and finely finished as well and the completed movement will easily regulate to the -4/+6 sec/day COSC standard. Between the time a movement receives its COSC certification and a customer receives the finished timepiece, there are a number of factors which can possibly affect the rate regulation but one of those factors is certainly *not* _"at least check them before they left the factory"..._ o|
> Best,
> Ron


So between the time the mainspring, the balance, and the "many other internal parts" are replaced, are the movements then checked to see if they are still in spec? Are they regulated and checked to see if they can hold the -4 to + 6 seconds a day? With parts that are made to such tight tolerances, you can't just "replace" parts and _assume _the watch is still in spec. That was really the point of my post. Is the certification done PRIOR to having all these parts replaced? Is it even regulated after the parts are replaced?

In the business I am in all of our equipment has to be tested and certified. All materials are checked for their origins, all dimensions, and functionality is checked by a third party to be "certified" before it is shipped to the customer. If after all this was done, I decided to change all these parts, and ship it with out it being "re-certified" our customer would laugh at us.

So I ask again if you certify something to be in a certain tolerance, then change all the parts without checking to see if it is still in spec, what good is the certification?

My watch has been bumped, dropped(on the carpet) set up for a few days, been subject to temperature changes, played golf in, been in the water.....etc. and is still from the day I have had it, +8-9 seconds fast a day. So if none of those things caused it to change, why would shipping it to the AD in a secure padded box throw it out of regulation? Could it have never been properly regulated in the first place? Are the watches regulated AFTER all the parts are replaced? That is my question.

I am not here to bash Breitling, I LOVE my Steelifish. I am just trying to figure out why it's running out of tolerance, and if replacing multiple parts without regulating it could have something to do with it. To me, if I buy a "Certified Chronometer" that is what it should be, and it should run in spec. If that's not the norm, or shouldn't be expected, then I'm wrong. But based on the descrition above, I don't think I'm out of bounds.

There are muliple examples of brand new or very new watches running out of spec, in many different movements. As for examples of Cal. 17's there is my watch and the posts below.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=284298&highlight=steelfish

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=189247&highlight=steelfish+running+fast

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=134466&highlight=steelfish+running+fast

read post # 17 in the thread below
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=111619&highlight=steelfish+running+fast

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=81916&highlight=seawolf+running+fast

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=55929&highlight=seawolf+running+fast

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=52303&highlight=seawolf+running+slow

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=17677&highlight=watch+running+fast


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## RJRJRJ

WHJ said:


> So between the time the mainspring, the balance, and the "many other internal parts" are replaced, are the movements then checked to see if they are still in spec? Are they regulated and checked to see if they can hold the -4 to + 6 seconds a day? With parts that are made to such tight tolerances, you can't just "replace" parts and _assume _the watch is still in spec. That was really the point of my post. Is the certification done PRIOR to having all these parts replaced? Is it even regulated after the parts are replaced?


The send them to COSC after they have the movement modified, obviously.

If your watch is running out of spec, take it to your dealer and have them send it of to breitling to be regulated under warranty.


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## WHJ

RJRJRJ said:


> The send them to COSC after they have the movement modified, obviously.
> 
> If your watch is running out of spec, take it to your dealer and have them send it of to breitling to be regulated under warranty.


Yea, I just found that after doing a little research. I'm still wondering if they are regulated once assembled or if they are just assembled after COSC testing and shipped. I find it hard to believe that the shipping of a non running watch in a padded box could throw it out of regulation, when dropping, swimming golfing....etc doesn't change it's rate, but I guess anything's possible.


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## LFCRules

Have you watched the video, on the Breitling website, which mentions COSC tests?

http://www.breitling.com/en/#/technology/

Oh, and my Ti Seawolf, runs approx +4 to +5 secs a day...tops


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## WHJ

LFCRules said:


> Have you watched the video, on the Breitling website, which mentions COSC tests?
> 
> http://www.breitling.com/en/#/technology/
> 
> Oh, and my Ti Seawolf, runs approx +4 to +5 secs a day...tops


Nope, but I will. Thanks for the link. :-!


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## breitlingso08

I own a Superocean with the b17, and i will tell that when i first purchased the watch it ran at about +12 to -10 seconds per day. once it settled it was a spooky quartz like -1 +1 seconds. even the dial up dial down etc tests came back almost the same. my jeweler told me of all the watches with eta based movements breitlings are the best built for their respective costs. I'm a breitling lifer and i've owned some really nice pieces of the years. :-!


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## archer6

RJRJRJ said:


> If your watch is running out of spec, take it to your dealer and have them send it of to breitling to be regulated under warranty.


I have done this and it's the best solution if you ask me. My watch was returned in pristine condition, not a fingerprint on it. Well worth the time to drop it off at the AD. Now it is running spot on.

Cheers...


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## SnapIT

Yep, a real hot topic. You found eight threads amongst ~8870 threads started on this forum over the last four years. I will state here that your problem is a statistical out layer to the cohort of watches produced by Breitling during the year of production concerned. Its worth baring in mind that its only one watch of more then 150,000 produced. Customer service should see you right if you want to avail yourself of their professional attention to your problem.


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## jstawasz

My Steelfish runs +6 sec/day, which IMO is perfect for a new watch. I've never had a watch that's gotten faster with age. The other thing that impresses the heck out of me is that it runs the same on or off my wrist. The precision of this little engine is awesome. Comparing the Breitling 2824 to the stock ebauche is like comparing the Blown Hemi in a top fuel dragster to the standard Mopar engine. JMHO

Joe


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## tomsimac

I read many times a 2824 can pass with no modifications.
cost is more but really, does it matter all that much? I owned a Rolex that was always off. Until I was told to wind it every other day.... If I wanted it to be accurate. One reason I sold it, wanted something to be on time, not subject to winding.
so I just got the SMP Electric Blue and man, that beats COSC all the time. I usually arrive on time since my car has a quartz in the dash. I,worked in QC for many years, and can tell stories. If you think they are going to,spend a lot of time certifying a watch for the pittance they get, forget it. You should see how,it goes on modern aircraft. You may not want to fly ever again.


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## hhqavgun2

The send them to COSC after they have the movement modified, obviously.

If your watch is running out of spec, take it to your dealer and have them send it of to breitling to be regulated under warranty.


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## SnapIT

This thread is from Sept. 2009. The issue has been dealt with. Thanks for using the search function but please consider the context of your reply. The OP has moved on, that is a certainty.


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