# Where Are Steinhart Watches Made?



## Trandy

There's a big mud slinging thread going on at another forum concerning the heritage of Steinhart watches.

Some say they're Swiss-made, some say they're assembled in Switzerland with parts from China, some say they're actually assembled in China.

Any reliable information from you guys?


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## Ed.YANG

No doubt, the movement is from Switzerland. 
However, in some occasion, such question may popped into our mind... where are the final product from? Germany? Switzerland? China?
Looking back at some of the delayed delivery, limited volume produced, long waiting time for some... i'm pretty sure that my Steinharts are from Europe.


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## vokotin

It says swiss, is swiss, period.
Personally, i don't care where they are made or assembled, all i do care is the final quality and Steinhart's rocks!


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## safetypro79

Uwe:
My apologies for my outdated info, I have retracted my post.

John

"A loyal Steinhart owner since 2003"


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## strongergodzilla

They are Swiss made in Jura


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## Olegis

vokotin said:


> ... all i do care is the final quality and Steinhart's rocks!


Well, obviously they have their bad moments.

Getting back to the original topic - according to their website, the Steinhart watched are made in Jura, Switzerland.


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## vokotin

Sorry to read that Olegis.
Got the same watch few days ago and it is flawless.
Honestly, i think that every watch company has bad moments regarding QC, perfection is impossible to achieve.
By the way, great pics.

cheers


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## Uwe W.

safetypro79 said:


> Grovanna a well known and respected manufactuer in Switzerland makes Steinhart, Debaufre and Robert watches.


Come on, that's very outdated information. I'd strongly suggest updating your records and stop spreading falsehoods; information concerning this subject already exists in this forum.


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## gerrylb

safetypro79 said:


> Grovanna a well known and respected manufactuer in Switzerland makes Steinhart, Debaufre and Robert watches.
> 
> Ocean series share the same 42mm case specs with the other two companies.


I remember reading that Grovana used to produce the cases for Steinhart watches, but I belive the relationship ended tears ago.


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## SSingh1975

vokotin said:


> It says swiss, is swiss, period.


Last I heard was it only takes 51% of using Swiss origin to qualify a watch into using the SM logo :roll:.

Invicta (and some other companies) is known to use this to their advantage and mass produce thousands of watches using the SM logo while some components/work are probably done in far east asia. But of course, they boldly claim "100% swiss made and hand assembled, etc, etc" only to have hands falling off dials 3 months later. But that's another story for another thread.

My feeling is unless one is part of Swatch group (or higher end brand with in house movements), there's really no way of telling just exactly how much of a watch is genuinely "Swiss Made". And I doubt any company will boldly claim their watch was cased in China and then final assembly was completed in Swiss.

One of the reason why I love my Citizen/Seikos/GShocks. I know exactly where they are made without any false pretensions :-!.

But if one wants to think that Swiss Made means beautiful fairies hand crafting watches in the beautiful Swiss Alps and then sprinkling them with Swiss fairy dust during QC, so be it!!!

Personally, I like to think that some aspects are still made in Mr Peng's Noodle house located in a small Swiss town called Shangai.


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## TK-421

they are swiss made in guangzhou.


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## rockandrye

TK-421 said:


> they are swiss made in guangzhou.


What is with this stuff? If you know something, spill it. Otherwise.... :rodekaart


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## va812

SSingh1975 said:


> Last I heard was it only takes 51% of using Swiss origin to qualify a watch into using the SM logo :roll:.


Not exactly. The Swiss Watch Industry - Swiss Made


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## ArticMan

rockandrye said:


> What is with this stuff? If you know something, spill it. Otherwise.... :rodekaart


Unfinished cases, for example often come from China. If they do the finishing job in Swizerland then more tahan 50% of it's value is added in Switzerland = it is Swiss made! (that 50% is calculated from value of final product, not single parts.)

Generally:

From linked article:

"This law is based on a concept according to which Swiss quality depends on the amount of work actually carried out on a watch in Switzerland, even if some foreign components are used in it. It therefore requires that the assembly work on the movement (the motor of the watch) and on the watch itself (fitting the movement with the dial, hands and the various parts of the case) should be carried out in Switzerland, along with the final testing of the movement. It also requires that at least 50% of the components of the movement should be manufactured in Switzerland."

What I know is that 50% is nowadays calculated from value of final product not from quantity of parts. All the parts of "Swiss movement" can come from China if more than 50% of it's value is added in Switzerland. So value of assembly work in Swizerland (which is also a regurement) alone makes movement "Swiss made". Usually some finishing work is also done in S.


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## ArticMan

Uwe W. said:


> Come on, that's very outdated information. I'd strongly suggest updating your records and stop spreading falsehoods; information concerning this subject already exists in this forum.


I just wonder why it is so hard to tell where these watces are made and by whom? All that linked thread says that they are not made by Grovana/RT.... There seem to be a lot of interest but very little or no information about how things really are.


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## Monocrom

ArticMan said:


> I just wonder why it is so hard to tell where these watces are made and by whom? All that linked thread says that they are not made by Grovana/RT.... There seem to be a lot of interest but very little or no information about how things really are.


Sadly, very true.

Many watch enthusiasts, myself included, simply want to know where the various parts come from and where they are assembled. More out of genuine curiosity rather than political reasons. But getting a straight answer out of various watch brands is apparently harder than calculating the best time to attemp a moon landing . . . even if one is using a Speedmaster.


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## Ed.YANG

I'm confused about the "SWISS MADE" thingy now...

Is it...
Let's say(example) an assembler who works in a *swiss plant in Switzerland* gets paid USD150/day.
For example breakdown of watch part made up of-
USD$75- for the movement(be it swiss/chinese/jap.)
USD$15- for the case
USD$15- for the strap/bracelet
USD$40- for all others(crown, dial, hands)

So obviously, the manpower pay is USD$5 higher than the cost of manufacture of a single piece of watch, that qualifies for the "SWISS MADE" regulation? Of course, wouldn't it be a little exaggerating if a worker is paid to make 1 piece of the job/day? The other production quantity could have pushed the cost down right?

Hmmm... hopefully anyone can give me a clear details.


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## Triton

Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers. Who these are is nobody's business but Steinhart's! Or do you really think we will publish this kind of information for our competition to read? Please! :roll:


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## Ed.YANG

Triton said:


> Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers. Who these are is nobody's business but Steinhart's! Or do you really think we will publish this kind of information for our competition to read? Please! :roll:


I could certainly unerstand brother Triton's frustration whenever a "doubt thread" like this may pop up in some occasions over a period of time. Certainly, i believe *some* fellow members here understands the "code of business practice" when it comes to the details on who are the suppliers or makers of Steinhart produce, hence we would not ask for more in detail.
Hopefully you're not disturbed by my last post, regarding "SWISS MADE" topic that does not point directly to Steinhart timepieces, but rather towards all other Swiss makers. There's a grey zone that could be lingering around the "SWISS MADE" regulation that consumers might missed.
Should i have alot of doubts and lack of confidence with Steinhart products, i wouldn't have been setting aside some budget for the next generation of Steinhart divers in months to come.

However, please be understanding that you cannot stop the appearance of such topic when time goes, especially to those who are brewing the interest of Steinhart's products or buying for the first time.

Perhaps we could look at such topic in different angles, that the watch collectors community is not made up of people who are just persuing after branded names. There are certain percentage of folks who are after cosmetical design of a produce, complexity of a produce as well as value of a produce(i belong to this last group of watch collectors). 
Perhaps we should really give a big thank you to ETA, whose major products- the watch movements are climbing up in supply price, hence causing other small German/Swiss watch makers having hard times convincing potential buyers of Swiss watches paying premium price.

In addition, there are groups of peoples who belongs to different category when they are exposed to new names in the market, or introduced to new names in the market. 
These people could be made up of:-
1.20% with total ingnorance/clueless ideas, 
2.20% with total confidence, 
3.20% with total worshipping, 
4.20% with some ideas/knowledge of watchmaking industry/trend/technology, 
5.20% who could be potential bashers or haters when they believe on the brand which they have supported for long time(small percentage of rollies, I.UU.Cs, or OhMeGods folks/lovers falls into this category).

From such categorization, you could see a little or 2 why "threads of doubt" or "doubt threat" could often pop up in Steinhart section.

...perhaps... the moderator could consider to label this thread as sticky... such that in future, whoever comes into this section of the forum could refer to this thread for more info...
just my $0.02 though...


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## Uwe W.

Ed.YANG said:


> perhaps... the moderator could consider to label this thread as sticky... such that in future, whoever comes into this section of the forum could refer to this thread for more info.


A sticky? Absolutely not. In fact, I actually regret that this thread was even introduced to this forum by the OP in the first place. This thread doesn't contain any "info", just a lot of speculation and blind guessing. Unless someone here has performed due diligence, which means they've personally discussed with Herr Steinhart the exact composition of a Steinhart watch, and THEN visited the factories that manufacture those components and determined the sub-contractor's sources, you don't know a thing. I detest it when someone makes a sweeping statement about something and they haven't fully researched the subject or provided concrete evidence that can substantiate their claims.

And asking a watch manufacturer - any manufacturer for that matter - to provide full transparency about their product is a ridiculous request at best. The bottom line is that the industrial sector of every country around the world have outsourced some portion of their supply or production to China to save on costs. That means almost everything under the sun is now partially or fully made in China. It's a reality of modern day manufacturing - I'd suggest that you learn to live with it. There was a time when those cheap items that we all seem to loathe would have been "Made in" Korea, or Taiwan, or even longer ago, in Japan. Yes, I'm old enough to remember when something that was Made in Japan meant it was a cheap knock-off of a quality product made in either North America or Europe.

If it entertains everyone to sit around and speculate to no end about what percentage of a watch is Swiss, German, Japanese or Chinese, then knock yourselves out. I find it a completely pointless exercise, mostly because it's extremely unlikely that you'll ever establish an authoritative answer to the question. I only concern myself with who I'm buying a watch from. With respect to Steinhart, as an example, I'm buying a watch from a German businessman who happens to be a rabid watch enthusiast. That Herr Steinhart is confident enough in the quality of his product that he puts his own name on it, regardless of who manufactured what, is good enough for me.


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## rockandrye

If anyone needs a thread to refer back to, refer to this one when H.Solo said, "All watch parts for Steinhart are exclusively produced in switzerland... cases, crystals, dials, hands, crowns... "

https://www.watchuseek.com/f275/steinhart-case-manfacturer-577098.html

Is that what you were looking for, OP?


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## Nolander

Ok, I have been reading this thread and the opinions above and I will add my opinion as well. Who really cares where the parts come from? 316L SS is 316L SS. As long as the parts are quality the it doesn't matter where the production plants are located. Based on the quality products offered by Steinhart watches I assume they have to go through some kind of quality control at Steinhart. They are put together well and mine keeps excellent time. A lot of us like to speculate about in-house, etc., but in my opinion that is all marketing. There is no claim by Steinhart about everything made in house by Steinhart. I have not seen watches with these movements, cases, bracelets, and crystals at a better price anywhere (and I like most here have had a lot of watches). Excellent watches at twice the price. By the way, I bet more than 49% of most household items are made in China or have parts from China. Plus, I do not even know (or really care) if any Sreinhart parts are made in China. I like Steinharts based on the one I have and the excellent customer service I have received, so this is my plug for Steinhart.


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## Monocrom

Triton said:


> Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers. Who these are is nobody's business but Steinhart's! Or do you really think we will publish this kind of information for our competition to read? Please! :roll:


No one expects an item by item break down:

"Rotors come from ______ located in _____ on ______ street, on the corner of ______ Ave. As for the cases, those are from . . . "

No one is asking for that. No one is asking that you reveal your suppliers or the terms of the contracts you have with them. Still, to be honest, it's likely that those suppliers probably already provide parts to your competitors as well. No disrespect intended, but Steinhart is not a huge company. Obviously those suppliers providing you with watch parts need to make a profit as well, so they likely already sell their parts to other watch companies too.

As mentioned above, many watch enthusiasts are simply curious. When you wear something on your wrist on a daily basis, such curiosity is only natural. There's no reason to get that upset over natural curiosity. Plus, it'll only add fuel to the fire of Steinhart critics who have nothing better to do than bash the brand.


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## Ed.YANG

Monocrom said:


> ...As mentioned above, many watch enthusiasts are simply curious...


There may be watch enthusiasts who're curious, the biggest group of people who're curious are the ones who're come across this name for the first time.
They're coming in groups every single week...


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## Trandy

Uwe W. said:


> A sticky? Absolutely not. *In fact, I actually regret that this thread was even introduced to this forum by the OP *in the first place. This thread doesn't contain any "info", just a lot of speculation and blind guessing. Unless someone here has performed due diligence, which means they've personally discussed with Herr Steinhart the exact composition of a Steinhart watch, and THEN visited the factories that manufacture those components and determined the sub-contractor's sources, you don't know a thing. I detest it when someone makes a sweeping statement about something and they haven't fully researched the subject or provided concrete evidence that can substantiate their claims.
> 
> And asking a watch manufacturer - any manufacturer for that matter - to provide full transparency about their product is a ridiculous request at best. The bottom line is that the industrial sector of every country around the world have outsourced some portion of their supply or production to China to save on costs. That means almost everything under the sun is now partially or fully made in China. It's a reality of modern day manufacturing - I'd suggest that you learn to live with it. There was a time when those cheap items that we all seem to loathe would have been "Made in" Korea, or Taiwan, or even longer ago, in Japan. Yes, I'm old enough to remember when something that was Made in Japan meant it was a cheap knock-off of a quality product made in either North America or Europe.
> 
> If it entertains everyone to sit around and speculate to no end about what percentage of a watch is Swiss, German, Japanese or Chinese, then knock yourselves out. I find it a completely pointless exercise, mostly because it's extremely unlikely that you'll ever establish an authoritative answer to the question. I only concern myself with who I'm buying a watch from. With respect to Steinhart, as an example, I'm buying a watch from a German businessman who happens to be a rabid watch enthusiast. That Herr Steinhart is confident enough in the quality of his product that he puts his own name on it, regardless of who manufactured what, is good enough for me.


There was no malice on my part when I started this thread....I genuinely wanted some information....if I can't ask for said information in the Steinhart forum....where can I ask?

For the record I recently purchased my first Steinhart watch, an Ocean Black, and I am extremely pleased with it....and I plan on adding a Vintage Red in the not too distant future.

The reason I started this thread was because there was a huge ballyhoo going on in another forum about the heritage of Steinhart watches....and rather than blindly speculate I thought I'd ask some people who might know....namely the folks in the WUS Steinhart Forum.


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## romeo-1

Monocrom said:


> No one expects an item by item break down:
> 
> "Rotors come from ______ located in _____ on ______ street, on the corner of ______ Ave. As for the cases, those are from . . . "
> 
> No one is asking for that. No one is asking that you reveal your suppliers or the terms of the contracts you have with them. Still, to be honest, it's likely that those suppliers probably already provide parts to your competitors as well. No disrespect intended, but Steinhart is not a huge company. Obviously those suppliers providing you with watch parts need to make a profit as well, so they likely already sell their parts to other watch companies too.
> 
> As mentioned above, many watch enthusiasts are simply curious. When you wear something on your wrist on a daily basis, such curiosity is only natural. There's no reason to get that upset over natural curiosity. Plus, it'll only add fuel to the fire of Steinhart critics who have nothing better to do than bash the brand.


Well said! Nice to see some rationality!


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## Uwe W.

Trandy said:


> There was no malice on my part when I started this thread....if I can't ask for said information in the Steinhart forum....where can I ask?


I never suggested that there was. It was the resulting stream of speculative comments not based on any facts that I regretted. I would have thought that to be obvious from my comments. Asking questions is never a problem. Knowing which of the many experts you should believe is.


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## H.Solo

From time to time those kinds of threads seem to just "pop up"... coming from unawareness of a member or the urge to just splurge a wild guess into the room and see what happens...

Like here the thread over in the german Watchlounge contained no real reading value at all, just some guesses, speculations and even worse, accusations - so I closed and trashed it.

All that matters has been posted here by triton already... swiss made parts - swiss made watches!
(Oh, and the leather straps are made in Augsburg, Germany)

All that has never been a secret or something to be left for any guesses, this fact is and was shared countless times in several forums already.


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## flyingpicasso

H.Solo said:


> All that matters has been posted here by triton already... swiss made parts - swiss made watches!
> All that has never been a secret or something to be left for any guesses, this fact is and was shared countless times in several forums already.


There it is in black and white--all Steinhart watch parts are Swiss made. That should be case closed!


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## safetypro79

Well said Uwe:

I myself have the higest regard for Gunter and Steinhart watches, their overall quality and workmanship.

My previous post was based on old data that I negelected to update.

Since we all frequent this forum, means we must be a wearer/owner or potential buyer.

All drawn to the common knowledge that the bottom line is Gunter and his small team of dedicated professionals at Steinhart delivery almost 100 %.:-!
Some bumps in the road, but normal consistant world-class service.

 " I don't care where the watch is made if it's got Steinhart on it it's first-class"

John Miller
Boise, Idaho USA

"A loyal Steinhart owner since 2003"


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## Riker

For those that do not know, Triton is directly associated & involved with Steinhart, he is part of Steinhart DNA & therefor his comments should be taken as absolute fact. I have been friends with Steinhart for some years now & in that respect support them here & elsewhere with their total blessing as does Solo. Uwe is the moderator here so in lieu of that also has a bit of an understanding of Steinhart. I can say without any hesitation that Steinhart watches are designed in Germany, made in Switzerland by companies directly affiliated with Steinhart watches & not the others that some have mentioned in previous posts. 

Where the raw materials are sourced from for the use in cases & other applications is neither here nor there. What is good to know is that the same materials from similar sources are used by watch giants such as Panerai & other well known, well respected, hugely popular watch companies... What is directly relevant & accurate is that Steinharts watches are made using Swiss manufactured parts by Steinhart affiliate companies....;-)


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## Ed.YANG

Riker said:


> For those that do not know, Triton is directly associated & involved with Steinhart, he is part of Steinhart DNA & therefor his comments should be taken as absolute fact. I have been friends with Steinhart for some years now & in that respect support them here & elsewhere with their total blessing as does Solo. Uwe is the moderator here so in lieu of that also has a bit of an understanding of Steinhart. I can say without any hesitation that Steinhart watches are designed in Germany, made in Switzerland by companies directly affiliated with Steinhart watches & not the others that some have mentioned in previous posts.
> 
> Where the raw materials are sourced from for the use in cases & other applications is neither here nor there. What is good to know is that the same materials from similar sources are used by watch giants such as Panerai & other well known, well respected, hugely popular watch companies... What is directly relevant & accurate is that Steinharts watches are made using Swiss manufactured parts by Steinhart affiliate companies....;-)


This is what i keep telling myself, my Steinhartsare true European produce made in Europe(Germany + Switzerland). No doubt about that. 
But it is quite often that we see such a thread keep popping up over some period of time, that we would jump in to post our 2cts worth of words to clarify/defend such doubts and perhaps discussing on what are the production developments(this in turn links to supply and order process time) going on to a brand that we're warmly supporting now.

This is why i have suggested to put this thread sticky such that our discussions/"debates" can serve as a reference to all(be they are ignorants/bashers/doubters/growing in-confidence) who come into this forum section, seeing this on top of the thread queue, read through and then no more questions.
Of course this is just a suggestion, which the moderator can choose to reject(where he had already done, with his clear statements).


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## Monocrom

Another idea is to simply keep this topic bookmarked, and then provide a link to it should any new such topics pop up.

I have heard nothing but good things about Gunther. Apparently, the nicest guy in the watch-making world. And many of those Steinhart models are sweet-looking timepieces.


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## Ed.YANG

Monocrom said:


> ...I have heard nothing but good things about Gunther. Apparently, the nicest guy in the watch-making world...


This is so true... If we had read another thread regarding the personal visit alas personal collection of order experience, i believe there wasn't much watchmakers/HoC(Head of Company) would be able to personally serve the customer/supporter/guest upon every visit.
Well... this could be why i guess, he had not been able to answer any emails after every single sale done.


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## ArticMan

Triton said:


> Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers. Who these are is nobody's business but Steinhart's! Or do you really think we will publish this kind of information for our competition to read? Please! :roll:


i can see that this kind of threads really annoy you, but why?

I'm pretty sure that your competitors are well aware where you buy your parts and many of them are using very same suppliers as you are. That is how watch business works, you know it. And another thing is that Swiss made does not mean 100% Swiss made any more, It means something between 50 to 100%....

So you are saying that Steinhart has some kind of premises (and facilities) in Swizerland where they make all of their watces. That good information. Does Steinhart just put parts together or is there any kind of manufacturing of parts going on?


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## Triton

@ArcticMan: I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no knowledge of how the Swiss/European watch business works unless you have been a part of it for several years. I doubt you have, which makes everything you write about Steinhart mere speculation! And your speculation regarding me being annoyed also missed the target, I walk the earth smiling most of the time. You would too, if you where me. You don't have to speculate though whether I will indulge in a discussion with you, because I won't! ;-)

Günter Steinhart once told me jokingly: "If I raised the prices by 1'000% people would surely stop asking where and how I make watches."


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## Ed.YANG

Triton said:


> Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers. Who these are is nobody's business but Steinhart's! Or do you really think we will publish this kind of information for our competition to read? Please! :roll:





Triton said:


> ...And your speculation regarding me being annoyed also missed the target, I walk the earth smiling most of the time. You would too, if you where me. You don't have to speculate though whether I will indulge in a discussion with you, because I won't! ;-)...


Words in typing form does not have any expression of moods. It's the use of the punctuations that tells a small sign to all what kind of feeling does the poster may be. Hence it is really unavoidable that other folks reading this thread may have thought that you could be pissed off at that time... not for me, i just look and observe how the debate goes...


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## Monocrom

Triton said:


> Günter Steinhart once told me jokingly: "If I raised the prices by 1'000% people would surely stop asking where and how I make watches."


Ironically true. Then again, Gunter would lose many of his loyal customers.

Tell a new watch enthusiast that soldiers could buy Rolex watches at the PX a handful of decades ago, and they won't believe it at first. I see Steinhart where Rolex used to be back in the early 1960s. (That's a compliment.) I'd consider a vintage Submariner. But refuse to pay what I personally consider to be over-inflated prices for a new one today. Many of us appreciate that Steinhart makes a truly quality homage that one won't be worried to use for actual diving.


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## ArticMan

Triton said:


> @ArcticMan: I'm sorry, but you have absolutely no knowledge of how the Swiss/European watch business works unless you have been a part of it for several years. I doubt you have, which makes everything you write about Steinhart mere speculation! And your speculation regarding me being annoyed also missed the target, I walk the earth smiling most of the time. You would too, if you where me. You don't have to speculate though whether I will indulge in a discussion with you, because I won't! ;-)
> 
> Günter Steinhart once told me jokingly: "*If I raised the prices by 1'000% people would surely stop asking where and how I make watches.*"


Before that he needs to stop making homeages...

But could you be kind and answer my question?


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## rockandrye

ArticMan said:


> Before that he needs to stop making homeages...
> 
> But could you be kind and answer my question?


I have a question for you: does it really matter whether a Swiss OEM makes parts for Steinhart, or if Steinhart owns their own manufacturing facilities? What's the difference between a Swiss factory that cranks out quality parts and a Swiss factory that cranks out quality parts? The name on the door? I personally don't care about that, I mean most people expect that Steinhart is not a company the size of Swatch with some billion dollar in-house megafactory.

At the end of the day, people are trying to tell you these watches are made in Switzerland, not China. I have no reason to question that. Do you?


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## lgking

If you do the math, then it's a safe bet that at least the cases, bracelets, and bezel are manufactured in China. An hour or two of 'Swiss' labor would more than make up for 51% of the value + 'Swiss Made'.

As well, I happen to be talking to another 'watch-builder' about the new Steinhart 5517...

_Me: PS By the way, have you seen Gunter Steinhart's new 5517 release&#8230;?

Reply: _Yes I did. Looks nice. But it remains a Chinese case. I have been offered the Steinhardt case from the case maker. He offered me a very nice price as he wanted to tack my volume on the what he had already from Steinhardt.


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## bry1975

One thing I can say about Steinhart watches they can be very well built, I tested a 300metre Steinhart sub to like 801metres for 5mins and it passed!

Bry


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## Triton

lgking said:


> If you do the math, then it's a safe bet that at least the cases, bracelets, and bezel are manufactured in China. An hour or two of 'Swiss' labor would more than make up for 51% of the value + 'Swiss Made'.
> 
> As well, I happen to be talking to another 'watch-builder' about the new Steinhart 5517...
> 
> _Me: PS By the way, have you seen Gunter Steinhart's new 5517 release&#8230;?
> 
> Reply: _Yes I did. Looks nice. But it remains a Chinese case. I have been offered the Steinhardt case from the case maker. He offered me a very nice price as he wanted to tack my volume on the what he had already from Steinhardt.


That's not the first time, that the competition told their customers stories (or should I say fairy tales) about Steinhart, happens quite frequently. And not only competitors, ADs also. One of the big ones here in Hamburg, Germany told a friend of mine, who was shopping for an ORIS, wearing his Steinhart Nav.B Chrono II DLC, that he should stay away from Steinhart as they make use of chinese made fake ETA movements. Go figure.

I personally think one should think twice about buying from someone, who tells you negative things about his competitors, as it seams that the have run out of positive things to say about their own product. My friend did and bought his ORIS at a different AD.

And while doing your math based on hear say, I would suggest to perhaps stop asking yourself why Steinhart is so affordable and rather ask, why the others are so expensive! b-)


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## bry1975

I guess if you have enough productivity manufacturing in Switerland or Germany can be quite reasonable, I know when I had parts coated in Liechtenstein/Swiss border the coating cost wasn't to bad it was the customs that was my problem.


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## ctilly

Triton said:


> I would suggest to perhaps stop asking yourself why Steinhart is so affordable and rather ask, why the others are so expensive! b-)


Ha! Love it |>

Can't wait to see the new stuff coming out. We're going to look back and say we got a Steinhart when they were just a small boutique watch company ;-).


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## Uwe W.

Triton said:


> And while doing your math based on hear say


Easy now Triton. Didn't you know that hearsay is the mainstay of watch forums? And the best part of uninformed opinions is how they spread to become common knowledge and accepted fact. o|


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## Monocrom

Triton said:


> . . . I would suggest to perhaps stop asking yourself why Steinhart is so affordable and rather ask, why the others are so expensive! b-)


When you have a reputation as the nicest man in the watch-making industry, it's only natural not to jack-up prices annually to an almost obscene degree. You know, the way many so-called luxury brands do.

Part of me really wishes I had gotten into watches 5 years ago and had bought an Omega Speedmaster brand new for about $2500. At the rate Omega is going, I could sell it in another 5 years for a truly obscene profit.

That's the danger when you make a great product and decide you're not going to rape the wallets of your customers. Steinharts are an excellent value. If not the best, than certainly right up there as one of the best. The danger though is that you'll always have detractors saying things such as, "How can they sell an Ocean 1 at such a low price. They must be using cheap China parts. No other explanation."

Actually there is. Another explanation is that other watch companies, many of whom have the same suppliers based in Switzerland, simply jack up the prices once they assemble their watches. Study the industry long enough, and the main conclusion you come to is that when it comes to watches; no, you don't get what you pay for. Ironically, with certain models, you get more for your money. Much of the time though, you get less. And I mean a whole lot less. A perfect example of this is when certain so-called luxury brands decide to jack up their prices every year with clearly zero improvements to their watches in any way shape or form. However, it does fool some folks into thinking the brand truly is Upscale or High-End. Their prices? Definitely. Their watches? . . .

What's the difference between a new Speedmaster purchased last year and one purchased 4 years ago? Other than price; nothing! If you want one though, you have to pay a premium for basically nothing. How much more blatant can it get that other brands ridiculously overcharge customers for their watches? And to make it clear, I'm not just picking on Omega. Their Planet Ocean is one of my favorite diver models. I think it's gorgeous. There are brands blatantly guilty of increasing prices with no improvements to their watches. Since they do it annually and to such a large amount each time, I'm sorry; but they can't claim that it's simply due to the cost of doing business. Price of parts from suppliers going up. Cost of various metals going up. Thus, needing to adjust prices to stay competitive. Nope! They clearly do it because they want to be perceived as "High-end", "Upscale," and "Luxury." Doesn't matter to them if they truly are any of that. That's how they want to be perceived. Easiest way to do that is increase prices annually because there are many folks out there who think that a great watch, a nice watch, a luxury watch must come with a bank-buster price-tag. Not true. But that's not how a significant number of folks think.

Even allowing a bit of a premium for a brand that has built up a reputation as one of the best watch brands out there, you're essentially paying another premium for basically nothing. Considering the cost of a Rolex Submariner back in the late 1960's, then adjusted for inflation, tack on a premium for brand recognition, then allow even more for a nice profit; a Current Rolex Submariner should cost nowhere above $4,000. A brand new one now costs over twice that? Keeping in mind that allowances were made for having the Rolex logo on the dial *plus* making a nice profit off of the watch sold. Members have reported finding new Submariners with dust on the inside of the dials. Apparently that extra $4,000+ honestly doesn't buy you anything. Not even increased Quality Control checks to make sure that all dials are dust-free.

Paying $4,000+ literally for nothing. But some folks look at a Steinhart or another brand that is run by individuals who choose not to charge their customers a ridiculous premium for nothing, and those folks automatically assume that the brand simply must be using cheap parts from China. Maybe, just maybe . . . many of the other brands are ripping off their customers by charging FAR too much for their products. With that standard of comparison, when you do the math now, a Steinhart Ocean 1 doesn't look cheap at all. It looks reasonably priced, allowing the company to make a very reasonable profit while continuing to build up a loyal customer base that will likely buy more watches from the brand. Hey! What a concept! Making profit while creating and building up a loyal customer base.

The question of where Steinhart gets its parts for their watches has already been answered. Unless someone has hard evidence that parts or cases are coming out of China, then there's no where for this thread to go but rumor, innuendo, and gossip.


----------



## vokotin

Bingooo Monocrom you did the point!
Great post, i really enjoyed it and there's nothing to add further.

cheers.


----------



## Eric L.

I have quite a bit of experience with dive watches, and am expecting my first Steinhart (Ocean Vintage Military) in the next week or so. Having read this thread, there appears to be a misunderstanding of what "made in" or "manufactured in" really means. To the folks in the know, it refers to assembly, quality control, and perhaps some custom refinishing (although how much refinishing labor one can afford at EU labor rates is for you to deduce using common sense). It does not generally refer to the actual casting/molding of raw materials into finished items such as cases, bracelets, bezels, etc... Otherwise, much like pretty much every other watch company in the world, "Swiss Made" or "German Made" or "Made in XXX" by the letter of the law (definition easily found on wikipedia) pretty much means that parts can be sourced from any one of the high quality suppliers from across the globe, and without a doubt the highest quality:cost ratio are from regions with the lowest labor costs (let us assume raw materials pretty much cost the same wherever you are). Avoiding unlikely explanations and arguments full of speculation and logical fallacy, one can go with Occam's razor - the most likely scenario is probably the correct one.


----------



## rockandrye

Eric L. said:


> one can go with Occam's razor - the most likely scenario is probably the correct one.


Or one can go with direct statements from those directly associated with Steinhart: all the watch parts are made in Switzerland.

As has been said before, if anyone has facts that contradict that, show them. Otherwise, I think it's good practice to take the Steinhart folks at their word until there's a legit reason not to.


----------



## Eric L.

Not sure where you read that "made in switzerland" = manufactured from raw materials. As I wrote earlier, the definition is clearly defined to the letter of the law, and it does not specify that parts other than the movement must originate from the "Made in XXX" place. To point, the responses from folks associated with Steinhart have been very well worded to make it clear that their definition is in line with the "Made in" legal definition, which entails movement origin, assembly and QC. At their pricepoint, this is perfectly reasonable.



rockandrye said:


> Or one can go with direct statements from those directly associated with Steinhart: all the watch parts are made in Switzerland.
> 
> As has been said before, if anyone has facts that contradict that, show them. Otherwise, I think it's good practice to take the Steinhart folks at their word until there's a legit reason not to.


----------



## romeo-1

*Cases are made in China and finished in Switzerland. *

I say that to be contradicted IF I am incorrect (by those in the know). I do not say that to be inflammatory or derogatory. I have absolutely no issue whatsoever with Chinese made cases...it's why 95% of boutique brands are still accessible to us "working Joes".


----------



## rockandrye

Eric L. said:


> Not sure where you read that "made in switzerland" = manufactured from raw materials. As I wrote earlier, the definition is clearly defined to the letter of the law, and it does not specify that parts other than the movement must originate from the "Made in XXX" place. To point, the responses from folks associated with Steinhart have been very well worded to make it clear that their definition is in line with the "Made in" legal definition, which entails movement origin, assembly and QC. At their pricepoint, this is perfectly reasonable.


Did you even read page 2 of this thread? On three occasions there are statements that would appear to refute your point. As in the parts are Swiss made. I understand what you're getting at, and I understand how the "Swiss Made" thing works, but when people associated with the watchmaker say the parts are made in Switzerland, period, why is that not good enough for people? Why keep hammering the suggestion that the only thing Swiss is the movement and assembly?


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## Caruso

This topic was disgussed already many times. It doesn't matter where was made, as long as you like it. Obvious too that most of the homage boutique brands are supplied by the chinese, but meanwhile there is swiss assembling and quality control, we can be satisfied...


----------



## Eric L.

Yes I read the entire thread (and dozens and dozens of others as this topic has come up for many other watch companies over the 5+ years I've been on this forum). And nowhere in this thread has anyone who represents the company (this would be Triton) stated that the parts are made in Switzerland. It was stated that the "watches are made in Switzerland" which falls into the legal definition that the movement is actually made in Switzerland but also makes absolutely no claim that the individual parts are manufactured/sourced from Switzerland (the statement clarifies it by saying the parts are sourced from many different vendors, without reference to their origin).

In the end, believe what you want, even if it defies common sense. This takes away nothing from the likely fact that many other Swiss watch companies do exactly the same thing by sourcing globally, but with a much higher markup.



rockandrye said:


> Did you even read page 2 of this thread? On three occasions there are statements that would appear to refute your point. As in the parts are Swiss made. I understand what you're getting at, and I understand how the "Swiss Made" thing works, but when people associated with the watchmaker say the parts are made in Switzerland, period, why is that not good enough for people? Why keep hammering the suggestion that the only thing Swiss is the movement and assembly?


----------



## rockandrye

It isn't a matter of what I wish to believe. I am only going on a set of statements by those either affiliated with Steinhart or those who you might deem an "insider."

These include:

1) H.Solo: "All watch parts for Steinhart are exclusively produced in switzerland... cases, crystals, dials, hands, crowns... "

2) Riker: "+1 to H.Solo, all Swiss manufactured..."

3) Triton: "Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers."

4) H.Solo: "All that matters has been posted here by triton already... swiss made parts - swiss made watches!
(Oh, and the leather straps are made in Augsburg, Germany)"

5) Riker: "Where the raw materials are sourced from for the use in cases & other applications is neither here nor there .... What is directly relevant & accurate is that Steinharts watches are made using Swiss manufactured parts by Steinhart affiliate companies...."

Now, if you must know, I take all that to mean that the parts are manufactured by a variety of Swiss OEMs, who supply the parts from soup to nuts along with assembly. That doesn't have to mean the raw materials that go into making the parts are of Swiss origin. On the flip side, I don't read all that and come away with the impression the case and other parts are made in China, shipped to Switzerland for assembly and QC, along with an ETA movement. I find it ironic that romeo-1 posted in the linked thread above, and was told the cases were Swiss Made. Then comes on here and says, well, they're Chinese unless you tell me otherwise... I don't get that... :-s

Of course, if you're saying only Triton is correct, well that's another matter...


----------



## romeo-1

rockandrye said:


> It isn't a matter of what I wish to believe. I am only going on a set of statements by those either affiliated with Steinhart or those who you might deem an "insider."
> 
> These include:
> 
> 1) H.Solo: "All watch parts for Steinhart are exclusively produced in switzerland... cases, crystals, dials, hands, crowns... "
> 
> 2) Riker: "+1 to H.Solo, all Swiss manufactured..."
> 
> 3) Triton: "Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers."
> 
> 4) H.Solo: "All that matters has been posted here by triton already... swiss made parts - swiss made watches!
> (Oh, and the leather straps are made in Augsburg, Germany)"
> 
> 5) Riker: "Where the raw materials are sourced from for the use in cases & other applications is neither here nor there .... What is directly relevant & accurate is that Steinharts watches are made using Swiss manufactured parts by Steinhart affiliate companies...."
> 
> Now, if you must know, I take all that to mean that the parts are manufactured by a variety of Swiss OEMs, who supply the parts from soup to nuts along with assembly. That doesn't have to mean the raw materials that go into making the parts are of Swiss origin. On the flip side, I don't read all that and come away with the impression the case and other parts are made in China, shipped to Switzerland for assembly and QC, along with an ETA movement. *I find it ironic that romeo-1 posted in the linked thread above, and was told the cases were Swiss Made. Then comes on here and says, well, they're Chinese unless you tell me otherwise... I don't get that... :-s
> 
> Of course, if you're saying only Triton is correct, well that's another matter...*




Ironic? No, I posted what I posted to put end to the "debate"...it's ambiguous at best. Like I said, I could care less where the cases are made...I just want to know. BTW, everything you quoted from previous postings is the definition of ambiguity.

As I stated, I'm not trying to "stir the pot", I just want to end the ambiguity (word of the day).


----------



## Eric L.

rockandrye said:


> It isn't a matter of what I wish to believe. I am only going on a set of statements by those either affiliated with Steinhart or those who you might deem an "insider."
> 
> These include:
> 
> 1) H.Solo: "All watch parts for Steinhart are exclusively produced in switzerland... cases, crystals, dials, hands, crowns... "
> 
> 2) Riker: "+1 to H.Solo, all Swiss manufactured..."
> 
> 3) Triton: "Steinhart watches are made by Steinhart in Switzerland, period! The parts are made by at least a dozen different suppliers."
> 
> 4) H.Solo: "All that matters has been posted here by triton already... swiss made parts - swiss made watches!
> (Oh, and the leather straps are made in Augsburg, Germany)"
> 
> 5) Riker: "Where the raw materials are sourced from for the use in cases & other applications is neither here nor there .... What is directly relevant & accurate is that Steinharts watches are made using Swiss manufactured parts by Steinhart affiliate companies...."
> 
> Now, if you must know, I take all that to mean that the parts are manufactured by a variety of Swiss OEMs, who supply the parts from soup to nuts along with assembly. That doesn't have to mean the raw materials that go into making the parts are of Swiss origin. On the flip side, I don't read all that and come away with the impression the case and other parts are made in China, shipped to Switzerland for assembly and QC, along with an ETA movement. I find it ironic that romeo-1 posted in the linked thread above, and was told the cases were Swiss Made. Then comes on here and says, well, they're Chinese unless you tell me otherwise... I don't get that... :-s
> 
> Of course, if you're saying only Triton is correct, well that's another matter...


Yes Triton is the only member here who is connected to the company in any official capacity to make an accurate statement. Everything else is boundless speculation.


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## ew03877286

NO matter how...i love my Steinhart more than my previous watches such as oris...omega...H3 but i think all my collection is my lover....no matter where it from ....... 
That only my thought.....


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## Monocrom

Going back to the last sentence in my previous post . . . I wish I could be that spot-on when picking Lotto numbers.


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## romeo-1

Ok...at the risk of having this thread locked I'm just going to put all of my cards on the table;Triton; are any of the cases used for Steinhart watches manufactured in China?Again, I want to state that it matters not to me where the cases are manufactured...whether they are made in China, Switzerland or Timbuktu it does not change the quality. I realize that "Made in China" has certain negative connotations but for me, quality is quality...period!


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## alllexandru

iPhone - Made in China - parts supply from different world wide location and assembled, QC in China
Steinhart - Made in Switzerland - parts supply from different world wide location and assembled, QC in Switzerland

Don't see where is the problem?

Do you think that Mercedes or BMW have all the parts made in Germany?


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## Eric L.

romeo-1 said:


> Ok...at the risk of having this thread locked I'm just going to put all of my cards on the table;Triton; are any of the cases used for Steinhart watches manufactured in China?Again, I want to state that it matters not to me where the cases are manufactured...whether they are made in China, Switzerland or Timbuktu it does not change the quality. I realize that "Made in China" has certain negative connotations but for me, quality is quality...period!


You will probably not get a direct answer for your question, as it has been indirectly answered by Triton above already.

You are correct, there are great quality parts available worldwide.


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## fastward

Eric L. said:


> You will probably not get a direct answer for your question, as it has been indirectly answered by Triton above already.
> 
> You are correct, there are great quality parts available worldwide.


Unfortunately, there are those that will refuse to believe those answers, just like there are those that still refuse to believe that we landed on the Moon.


----------



## Ed.YANG

fastward said:


> Unfortunately, there are those that will refuse to believe those answers, just like there are those that still refuse to believe that we landed on the Moon.


This is human nature of the current age.
Majority of the current generation consumers believe that if they pay a premium price, they're rest assured that all the components of the piece they get are worthy of every single dime they have forked out.
One good example is the auto industry. Some folks may think that whatever they pay, the money will eventually justify every single value of German parts, German worksmanship, German labour, as well as every single drop of German sweat. However, what they don't know is that some of the Benz running in their street could be built in India, China or South Africa with some German parts, as well as parts sourced from other part of the world or domestic suppliers. The same thing goes to BMW, which could be from Thailand...

The debate on Steinhart's origin will eventually keep on and on... even if the moderator decides to lock up this thread, there will be another one to pop up again.

However, i don't see anything negative on this thread, but perhaps on the positive side... 
1. We should look at the workmanship of the Steinhart produce, rather than go into every single bit questioning where the parts could be from.
2. Which part should we look of a Steinhart watch where the value of that part justify the reputation of "SWISS MADE" regulation? Is it the movement? is it the workmanship? Is it the... spring pins? Hmm...
3. If there are big names out there using cheap parts on some of the components, such as casing, case back, bracelet, strap except for the movement... Which one you think is more value for money? Steinhart? Or the biggies... For example... Hamilton. Anyone?


----------



## fastward

Ed.YANG said:


> This is human nature of the current age.
> Majority of the current generation consumers believe that if they pay a premium price, they're rest assured that all the components of the piece they get are worthy of every single dime they have forked out.
> One good example is the auto industry. Some folks may think that whatever they pay, the money will eventually justify every single value of German parts, German worksmanship, German labour, as well as every single drop of German sweat. However, what they don't know is that some of the Benz running in their street could be built in India, China or South Africa with some German parts, as well as parts sourced from other part of the world or domestic suppliers. The same thing goes to BMW, which could be from Thailand...
> 
> The debate on Steinhart's origin will eventually keep on and on... even if the moderator decides to lock up this thread, there will be another one to pop up again.
> 
> However, i don't see anything negative on this thread, but perhaps on the positive side...
> 1. We should look at the workmanship of the Steinhart produce, rather than go into every single bit questioning where the parts could be from.
> 2. Which part should we look of a Steinhart watch where the value of that part justify the reputation of "SWISS MADE" regulation? Is it the movement? is it the workmanship? Is it the... spring pins? Hmm...
> 3. If there are big names out there using cheap parts on some of the components, such as casing, case back, bracelet, strap except for the movement... Which one you think is more value for money? Steinhart? Or the biggies... For example... Hamilton. Anyone?


Well I know for a fact that BMW has shifted production of certain models to the US and a fair amount of their OEM parts come out of US factories that produce OEM parts for other car companies.
Quality should be more important than location, but when a premium price is attached, its changes one's perception.

Value for the money is going to be subjective. Hamilton isn't a homage company.


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## lgking

_"Yes I read the entire thread (and dozens and dozens of others as this topic has come up for many other watch companies over the 5+ years I've been on this forum). And nowhere in this thread has anyone who represents the company (this would be Triton) stated that the parts are made in Switzerland. It was stated that the "watches are made in Switzerland" which falls into the legal definition that the movement is actually made in Switzerland but also makes absolutely no claim that the individual parts are manufactured/sourced from Switzerland (the statement clarifies it by saying the parts are sourced from many different vendors, without reference to their origin).

In the end, believe what you want, even if it defies common sense. This takes away nothing from the likely fact that many other Swiss watch companies do exactly the same thing by sourcing globally, but with a much higher markup"

_I think Eric L. nails it...


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## Ferdia

Hi All

Was reading this and it struck me that regardless of where the watch is manufactured, parts-sourced, finished, what actually matters is that it is a quality timepiece. Surely time, quality, and satisfied customers are what make a watch, more than where it is made. There are watches that claim Swiss heritage and can be said to have a spotted history quality-wise, and there are cheap watches with no pretensions that are some of the toughest, most accurate and most respected marques in the industry. I have a Speedmaster Professional that I bought a few years ago. From time to time, when I start the chronograph, it just plain stops at 1 second, and that bugs the heck out of me. I have come across other Speedy owners that have the same issue. If it was any other brand, people would slag it off as being poor quality because of this fault, but because it is Omega, and it costs so much, it is passed off as a characteristic.

I will be buying a Steinhart Ocean 1 shortly, for one reason and one reason only..the feedback that owners of the watch are expressing on this forum and others, that this is a quality piece of engineering that will give years of use. It is extremely hard to establish yourself as a serious player in the watch industry, made even more difficult by today's information rich world, where one guy with a bad experience can do a manufacturer a lot of harm with persistent bad reports. I bet Rolex, Omega et al had none of this to put up with when they were starting out. Granted, the other side of that coin is that when a company does things well, it works in their favour. And in this case, it certainly has, because it has convinced me to shell out for one.

Thanks

Ferdia


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## Riker

Ferdia, welcome to Watchuseek & the Steinhart....

A very balanced approach to your thinking on this somewhat passionate issue. I'm totally sure you will enjoy having the Ocean 1 in your collection & even more sure it will probably not be your last Steinhart...;-)


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## Monocrom

Regarding the Omega, if I had a Speedmaster that pulled that nonsense, I'd be mad as Hell. Definitely wouldn't chalk it up to being a part of its character.


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## Ferdia

Hi Monocrom,
You can be sure I was, but just to clarify, this happens like once every 2 years. I know it never should, but I can live with it, as it is so rare, and I don't have any trajectory altering burns to make  I didn't buy it new, but caveat emptor and all that, and when I found out that a small number of other owners had it happen to them, then I was satisfied. 
cheers
Ferd


----------



## Monocrom

Ferdia said:


> Hi Monocrom,
> You can be sure I was, but just to clarify, this happens like once every 2 years. I know it never should, but I can live with it, as it is so rare, and I don't have any trajectory altering burns to make  I didn't buy it new, but caveat emptor and all that, and when I found out that a small number of other owners had it happen to them, then I was satisfied.
> cheers
> Ferd


Thanks for clarifying. I thought it was a constant problem. Good to hear it's not.


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## Ferdia

Steinhart Ocean 1 (black) ordered last night. She looks a real beauty. And to keep the thread on subject, I don't care where she is built, but I know where she'll get a lot of love.

ferd


----------



## John MS

Eric L. said:


> I have quite a bit of experience with dive watches, and am expecting my first Steinhart (Ocean Vintage Military) in the next week or so. Having read this thread, there appears to be a misunderstanding of what "made in" or "manufactured in" really means. To the folks in the know, it refers to assembly, quality control, and perhaps some custom refinishing (although how much refinishing labor one can afford at EU labor rates is for you to deduce using common sense). It does not generally refer to the actual casting/molding of raw materials into finished items such as cases, bracelets, bezels, etc... Otherwise, much like pretty much every other watch company in the world, "Swiss Made" or "German Made" or "Made in XXX" by the letter of the law (definition easily found on wikipedia) pretty much means that parts can be sourced from any one of the high quality suppliers from across the globe, and without a doubt the highest quality:cost ratio are from regions with the lowest labor costs (let us assume raw materials pretty much cost the same wherever you are). Avoiding unlikely explanations and arguments full of speculation and logical fallacy, one can go with Occam's razor - the most likely scenario is probably the correct one.


It seems clear to me that the country of origin label found on most watches provides the prospective purchaser with no information about the quality of the watch in hand. It is a vaguely defined marketing tool and nothing more. A specific manufacturer's _reputation _for supplying watches that are accurate, durable, well made, nicely designed and come with a reliable warranty is a far more reliable indicator of watch quality. It is the manufacturer who can set up and run the process for designing, outsourcing, manufacturing and quality control testing of the watches we all love. It really does not matter whether watch parts came from Japan, China, India, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany or England. Watch makers are faced by the same competitive presures as other manufacturers and outsourcing production is one way of controlling costs. The fact is there are very few if any watches that are made of components that originated 100% within the swiss borders.

I plan to continue enjoying my Steinhart Ocean I GMT. I really do not care who cast, stamped or machined the specific parts or where they are located. I know Steinhart delivers a quality product and that is enough.


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## Monocrom

Triton answered the question back on page 1 of this thread, back in October.

Unless someone has real evidence to the contrary, everything else is just guessing and speculation at best; rumor and innuendo at worst.


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## JurassicJet

I just got my Steinhart Ocean Vintage GMT. BEAUTIFUL watch. No regrets yet. 

I am glad that I read Triton's post on page one of this thread because here is what it says on the FedEx label on my package..... 

REF
DESC-1: automatic watches
DESC-2:
DESC-3:
DESC-4:

COUNTRY MFG: CH
Carriage Value: 0.00EUR
Customs Value: 336.13 EUR

Frankly, I would be dissapointed if I bought a watch from Steinhart that was made in China. Not a fan of china.


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## ctilly

"CH" is the (ISO 3166) country code for Switzerland:

Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## JurassicJet

ctilly said:


> "CH" is the (ISO 3166) country code for Switzerland:
> 
> Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Ok, I feel *sheepish*

Who wouldda thunk?!

Thanks for that clarification.


----------



## Uwe W.

JurassicJet said:


> Who wouldda thunk?!


It stands for the Confoederatio Helvetica, which is Latin for the Helvetic Confederation. A lot of people would've "thunk" it, well anyone who lives in or around Europe or who has travelled a little.


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## Eric L.

Yes its well known that CH represents Switzerland in the country code abbreviation. Well, now you know.

The Straight Dope: Why is "CH" the abbreviation for Switzerland?

Don't feel too bad. There are tons of funny videos on youtube where folks show off their spectacular knowledge of geography (the majority of Americans probably can't point out where Washington DC is on a map, much less name the 50 states).


----------



## JurassicJet

Uwe W. said:


> It stands for the Confoederatio Helvetica, which is Latin for the Helvetic Confederation.* A lot of people would've "thunk" it, well anyone who lives in or around Europe or who has travelled a little.
> *


Well, I have seen a number of products with "CN" on them. Canada comes to mind along with China. I have never been to Europe so CN for Switzerland was not on the forefront of my thought process.

I am way more familiar with aircraft country codes for registration. CN is not Switzerland for aircraft by the way...it is HB. CN is Morroco. Or how about "D" for Germany (at least that one makes sense).

Eric:
That is a broad statement to regarding a "majority of Americans". Have you polled the youth from your country. I doubt they are much wiser. And as far as Youtube, just like Facebook...It is an overrated "look at me" medium.


----------



## Eric L.

JurassicJet said:


> Well, I have seen a number of products with "CN" on them. Canada comes to mind along with China. I have never been to Europe so CN for Switzerland was not on the forefront of my thought process.
> 
> I am way more familiar with aircraft country codes for registration. CN is not Switzerland for aircraft by the way...it is HB. CN is Morroco. Or how about "D" for Germany (at least that one makes sense).
> 
> Eric:
> That is a broad statement to regarding a "majority of Americans". Have you polled the youth from your country. I doubt they are much wiser. And as far as Youtube, just like Facebook...It is an overrated "look at me" medium.


I am American. My statement wasn't some smug foreigner knocking American education. Our education system is in a sorry state and some kids are making it through mandatory education (k-18) without basic reading comprehension or life skills. But I don't want to take this into a political discussion, so lets leave it at that.


----------



## chronomancer

Holy crap what a fascinating thread! I love my nav b chrono 2. Just saying.


----------



## R_C

I visited one of the very few watchmakers here in Johannesburg South Africa last week, a gentleman by the name of Ernst Janner, to get my SKX 009 regulated. I showed him my Steinhart OVR and was surprised that he knew all about Steinhart and stated that the movement is Swiss (ETA) and the case made in Germany. He is clearly an "old school" watchmaker with an incredibly well equipped workshop.

I had to laugh reading through this thread about the comparisons drawn between expectation as to where ones motor car was manufactured. I can tell you that no matter where you are in the world if you drive a BMW it was very likely manufactured right here in South Africa at BMW's manufacturing plant at Rosslyn 

BMW South Africa - Plant Rosslyn


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## Googee

TK-421 said:


> they are swiss made in guangzhou.


Rather silly discussion knowing China manufactures parts for probably every watch on earth. Steinhart watches have an ETA movement and 2 year warranty. That and a quality result is about all anyone can hope for. Are they collectible? That's a better question.


----------



## Monocrom

Googee said:


> Rather silly discussion knowing China manufactures parts for probably every watch on earth. Steinhart watches have an ETA movement and 2 year warranty. That and a quality result is about all anyone can hope for. Are they collectible? That's a better question.


_Anything_ is collectible. Hell, some folks even collect barbed wire. (Nope! Not joking.)

Are Steinharts a good investment in terms of monetary returns?.... No!

Then again, that applies to every sub-$5K brand.


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## JSal

Monocrom said:


> _Anything_ is collectible. Hell, some folks even collect barbed wire. (Nope! Not joking.)
> 
> *Are Steinharts a good investment in terms of monetary returns?.... No!
> *
> Then again, that applies to every sub-$5K brand.


That statement is not completely true...

I have personally witnessed many Limited Edition Steinhart's sell for much more than their original price and in a relatively short amount of time.
I can also name several that if became available on the secondary market would probably sell for four times their original price.

I have also personally sold a few out of production models that I originally purchased new from Steinhart for more than the original cost.

Most if not all current production Steinhart Watches (if kept in excellent condition) will almost always bring you back your original investment, and sometimes more depending on their current availability at the Steinhart website.

Keep in mind price almost always depends on condition and how patient or motivated the seller is.

Now do I think everyone should run out and put all their savings into Steinhart Watches (or any others) as an investment? Of course I would say no...

But I do take comfort in knowing that if I take good care of all my Steinhart's that if and when I want to part with one that I can get back close to what I paid and in some cases more.


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## xox

i;m sure they are swiss made


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## Uwe W.

xox said:


> i;m sure they are swiss made


They are made in Switzerland despite what one might read in this thread that is now _five years old_. The Steinhart website clearly states that its watches are "Swiss Made in Jura."


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## JSal

xox said:


> i;m sure they are swiss made


Did you read this thread in its entirety?

The fact that they are indeed "Swiss Made" was established several pages ago and a few years back.


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## noregrets

A consequence I suspect of the post count requirement for the sales forum...


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## JSal

noregrets said:


> A consequence I suspect of the post count requirement for the sales forum...


At this moment he only needs 21 more Posts to meet the new requirements to be able to once again list another watch for sale and he's only been a member for 3+ years.

The patience these new Spammers have today is amazingI. :-d


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## Uwe W.

JSal said:


> At this moment he only needs 21 more Posts


That's been changed. We take a dim view to speed posting...



JSal said:


> The patience these new Spammers have today is amazingI. :-d


Probably unfair to describe him a spammer. The Sales Corner is meant to be of benefit to _contributing_ WUS members, a place to buy and sell within the community. However, there are a number of people who join WUS for the sole purpose of using the Sales Corner as a free outlet for their buying and selling activities and they do little to enrich our community. They aren't necessarily spammers, just those who are taking advantage of the situation.


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## MrDagon007

JSal said:


> That statement is not completely true...
> 
> I have personally witnessed many Limited Edition Steinhart's sell for much more than their original price and in a relatively short amount of time.
> I can also name several that if became available on the secondary market would probably sell for four times their original price.
> 
> I have also personally sold a few out of production models that I originally purchased new from Steinhart for more than the original cost.
> 
> Most if not all current production Steinhart Watches (if kept in excellent condition) will almost always bring you back your original investment, and sometimes more depending on their current availability at the Steinhart website.
> 
> Keep in mind price almost always depends on condition and how patient or motivated the seller is.
> 
> Now do I think everyone should run out and put all their savings into Steinhart Watches (or any others) as an investment? Of course I would say no...
> 
> But I do take comfort in knowing that if I take good care of all my Steinhart's that if and when I want to part with one that I can get back close to what I paid and in some cases more.


I agree. I wouldn't call the brand a sound monetary investment but with the LEs and some older ones you might make a profit.
I also have the impression than the regular models can be passed on keeping more value than most mall watches.


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## JSal

Uwe W. said:


> That's been changed. We take a dim view to speed posting...
> 
> Probably unfair to describe him a spammer. The Sales Corner is meant to be of benefit to _contributing_ WUS members, a place to buy and sell within the community. However, there are a number of people who join WUS for the sole purpose of using the Sales Corner as a free outlet for their buying and selling activities and they do little to enrich our community. They aren't necessarily spammers, just those who are taking advantage of the situation.


It was meant as a "tongue in cheek" comment Uwe.

I actually feel just the opposite about him.

I know you guys have your backs against the wall with real Spammers and I applaud your efforts to make this a safe place for us.

But I was trying to convey how the new rules can also hurt legitimate people.

Member "xox" is obviously a long time member who prefers to read rather than post much. He has also successfully sold a couple of watches on the forum.
So I highly doubt he is a Spammer and I was just making a joke.

I know he has been speed posting small comments but I don't think his intention is to make the 100 post count so he can spam the site. He just wants be able to use the sales forum on occasion without restrictions. 
And in the 3 years he's been a member I think he sold 2 of his watches. So it's not like he is using the forum as a free online business.

Hopefully you guys can come up with a way to make it tough for Spammers without putting the burden on long time members who just don't post a lot.


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## MrDagon007

MrDagon007 said:


> I agree. I wouldn't call the brand a sound monetary investment but with the LEs and some older ones you might make a profit.
> I also have the impression than the regular models can be passed on keeping more value than most mall watches.


When reading John's post I saw mine and suddenly I realise that one I think innocent sentence of my post was cut out afterwards. Puzzled.


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## MrDagon007

JSal said:


> It was meant as a "tongue in cheek" comment Uwe.
> 
> I actually feel just the opposite about him.
> 
> I know you guys have your backs against the wall with real Spammers and I applaud your efforts to make this a safe place for us.
> 
> But I was trying to convey how the new rules can also hurt legitimate people.
> 
> Member "xox" is obviously a long time member who prefers to read rather than post much. He has also successfully sold a couple of watches on the forum.
> So I highly doubt he is a Spammers and I was just making a joke.
> 
> I know he has been speed posting small comments but I don't think his intention is to make the 100 post count so he can spam the site. He just wants be able to use the sales forum on occasion without restrictions.
> And in the 3 years he's been a member I think he sold 2 of his watches. So it's not like he is using the forum as a free online business.
> 
> Hopefully you guys can come up with a way to make it tough for Spammers without putting the burden on long time members who just don't post a lot.


Tangential to this, and I know not really linked to the original topic of the thread, I don't like the "bumping" behaviour on the sales forum.


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## JSal

MrDagon007 said:


> Tangential to this, and I know not really linked to the original topic of the thread, I don't like the "bumping" behaviour on the sales forum.


We are certainly off topic. But you are opposed to bumping?

There is nothing wrong with bumping as long as it is done no less than 12 hours apart as the rules state.

And most people who use the sales forum Bump once in 24 hours or even longer.


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## MrDagon007

JSal said:


> We are certainly off topic. But you are opposed to bumping?
> 
> There is nothing wrong with bumping as long as it is done no less than 12 hours apart as the rules state.
> 
> And most people who use the sales forum Bump once in 24 hours or even longer.


I know it is allowed. 
When I looked for 2 specific watches I just searched the sales forum. 
should i want to see what is newly listed I prefer that not to be contaminated with bumped items. Hence.


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## JSal

MrDagon007 said:


> I know it is allowed.
> When I looked for 2 specific watches I just searched the sales forum.
> should i want to see what is newly listed I prefer that not to be contaminated with bumped items. Hence.


Well gee Tom. I'm so sorry you have to weed through listings you've seen already. That's a very selfish attitude.

So I guess because that irritates you, then the people who are trying to sell their watches and want to bump it up so others just coming know it's still available must suffer.

You have one very strange and odd sense of entitlement.

I haven't tried it myself, but there might even be a way to filter out older posts by doing an advanced search.


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## MrDagon007

Dude, the selfish part is mainly on on part of those who do bump. 
Everyone, not only me, has to wade through the bumps to find the truly new items.
You're judging rather quickly about entitlement, methinks...


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## JSal

MrDagon007 said:


> Dude, the selfish part is mainly on on part of those who do bump.
> Everyone, not only me, has to wade through the bumps to find the truly new items.
> You're judging rather quickly about entitlement, methinks...


First of all my name is not dude...

Second of all what gives you or anyone else the right to say what you've said.

Do you really think you're so special and privileged that you don't have to look at an ad that someone bumped.

If you don't like it go buy a watch at an AD.

I happen to look through there all the time and I have absolutely no problem with it.

One quick glance at a search page and I can instantly tell if a listing is new or has been bumped.


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## MrDagon007

By the way, I have just as well the right to say that I don't like the practice than you have the right to say not to like it.
Take a breath and read your post again... I was not aggressive in my explaining my opinion and I would never call you prima dona or entitled or special for not agreeing with me. Fine if you don't like my opinion, i think that there might be a setting somewhere on the forum not to see my comments. Better for your blood pressure.


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## JSal

The fact you view that you voiced your opinion in a non aggressive manner is irrelevant.

The fact that you want to eliminate people from bumping there post to aid in selling their watch, so that you only have to look at brand new posts because you are looking to snag a deal is purely selfish.

Now if you made a suggestion that benefited both ends that would be great.

Maybe one day you will post a watch for sale and if it doesn't sell after a day or two you might want to bump it to the top so that it gets some exposure.

By the way... I just took the time to go to the sales forum. I then clicked on the "search forum" drop down menu on the upper right and then clicked on "advanced"
















I then scrolled down to where it says "find thread with" and clicked on the drop down menu that says "at least" and changed it to "at most" 
I then put a zero in the box to the right where it says "replies"
























I left the main search box at the top of the page blank, and I was able to pull every single new post in the sales forum in order from newest to oldest that have No Bump Replies.









Just for fun I also did one more search as I described above and this time added words to the main search field.

I wrote.... "Steinhart FS" and I was able to pull all Steinhart watches with that criteria in the sales forum from newest to oldest with zero bump replies.

So if you would have just taken the time experiment instead of posting nonsense suggestions this word exchange between us would have never taken place.


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## MrDagon007

This post of yours was actually informative and thanks for that.
If you had kindly answered this then we would not have had the discussion.

It is not irrelevant that my style is not aggressive, I don't bark if I don't agree with others.
I made a comment about user experience which yeah is selfish from a user point of view. Like all good GUIs. And no, I wouldn't bother bumping my watches. It is there in the search for those who want watch X.


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## JSal

MrDagon007 said:


> This post of yours was actually informative and thanks for that.
> If you had kindly answered this then we would not have had the discussion.
> 
> It is not irrelevant that my style is not aggressive, I don't bark if I don't agree with others.
> I made a comment about user experience which yeah is selfish from a user point of view. Like all good GUIs. And no, I wouldn't bother bumping my watches. It is there in the search for those who want watch X.


Actually if you look back to an earlier post of mine I suggested you attempt doing an advanced search. But again out of laziness you took the easy way out by wanting to cause others difficulty to several your needs.

If you were making a reasonable suggestion I wouldn't have reacted the way I did.

So I had to do the foot work and take my time to figure out how to solve your problem. Then write a detailed instruction and add screen shots.

And your theory of not bumping a sales thread is flawed. Most any time I have an active sales thread and I Bump it, I almost always get an inquiry either immediately or at most 12 hours. But on average I would say within 1 to 2 hours.


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## MrDagon007

Your perception of Laziness was an overly hasty assumption... I write these updates on tapatalk in taxis in between meetings, I was planning to check it out properly this weekend. Another example why it is best not to bark at people.
As I mentioned, thanks again for the info, it does save me experimenting time.
As an aside I only bought one watch here, the sexy Rado in my sig. I did search unfruitfully for an available Tokkotai pilot watch but in the end was able to buy a piece from the manufacturer.


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## daiwai

Or just sort the search result by Thread started date, by this you won't cut out those with genuine reply.


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## MrDagon007

Thanks Daiwai


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## Tony A.H

MrDagon007 said:


> I don't like the "bumping" behaviour on the sales forum.


nothing's wrong with Bumping posts.
you know. in the *WTB,* *WTT* and *Sales Corner* forum, Posts move very fast. there's probably a New Post every 1 Minute. which means: it can very easily disappear and one could lose the chance on getting the watch he/she's looking for.


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## Uwe W.

MrDagon007 said:


> When reading John's post I saw mine and suddenly I realise that one I think innocent sentence of my post was cut out afterwards. Puzzled.


WTB posts are not allowed outside of the Sales Corner, period. It's in forum rules. I suppose that it's possible that you made it in a joking manner, but new members won't be able to differentiate that from a serious request, and it sets a bad precedent that such requests are okay to make. Out of respect to you I quietly edited it out and didn't make a big deal about it. You weren't issued an infraction either. I hope this now makes sense to you.


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## Uwe W.

I'm closing this thread and cleaning up the worst of the flagrant rules violations within it.

Aside from it veering well off-topic, I was shocked and disappointed by the poor behavior that was exhibited in the past dozen or so posts, especially since they were made by established members of WUS. If you don't have something nice to say, either put it in a PM, or better yet, don't say anything at all. You all know the rules by now and I expect everyone to respect them. This will be my only warning; any more of this nonsense and I'll be forced into issuing infractions, something that I really hate to do.


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