# IWC Mark XVIII Current Production Uses Sellita Movement



## Kirk B

I recently purchased an IWC Mark XVIII that is one year old. It was originally sold by an overseas AD to a friend of mine in May 2020. I trust my friend, but was not sure about the AD. So, since I have the proper tools, I verified the authenticity of the movement - which is standard practice for me when buying any used luxury watch. There are Mark XVIII fakes now that use the ETA 2892-A2 movement and so are very good, even faking the bracelet. But the bezel (like on the Petit Prince version) is polished on all models of the fakes.

Here is mine.









I had done some research on the Mark XVIII and found a lot of debate as to whether or not IWC had switched in recent years from a decorated ETA 2892-A2 movement to the Sellita SW300-1. Well, I can confirm without a doubt that the newer models house the IWC 35111 movement, which is Sellita based:









IWC caliber 35111 » WatchBase


Full details and images of the IWC caliber 35111, including a list of all watches using this movement.




watchbase.com





You can see the C.35111 markings in my pictures, the Sellita logo, and of course the fact that it's a 25 jewel movement also marked.




























I was a bit surprised though as there is a complete lack of decoration on this movement, much as Tudor does with their movements. I've known people who have worn fakes for years all the time believing them to be real, so just to cover my bases I e-mailed IWC and received this response:



> In response to your inquiry your timepiece the Mark XVIII IW327015 is a calibre 35111 which is a Sellita movement. In order to confirm authenticity of the timepiece it would need to be sent in to our technical team to obtain a Certificate of Authenticity. We are pleased to inform you that every timepiece leaving IWC Schaffhausen is recorded in the company registry.


The movement is stamped with a serial number (not shown in my pictures), so they can check their records and make sure that the movement serial number matches the case number - similar to a car having a numbers matching engine. The watch needs to be sent to Switzerland though for their watchmakers to do the verification and then you can get a certificate of authenticity from them. I know Porsche does this for their vintage cars too. Cost is $330 USD. That's not necessary in my case as I am fully satisfied with the authenticity of my watch, but it is a good option if you buy a used IWC and want formal documentation of the authenticity for resale purposes.

Any way... the main point of this post was to supply pictures and to show that at least since 2020 IWC has certainly gone away from the use of an ETA movement to Sellita in this model.


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## EyeDoubleYouSee

No one should be surprised by this. Tudor has done the same thing.


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## Stchambe

I thought this was fairly common knowledge? The sellita movement is basically a rebranded ETA. IWC likely made the switch because they no longer wanted to or could no longer rely on the Swatch group for movements and parts.


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## Kirkawall

EyeDoubleYouSee said:


> No one should be surprised by this. Tudor has done the same thing.


Yep. As have Oris, Sinn and many others who were reliant on ETA for movement supply. I've owned plenty of watches with both ETA- and Sellita-based movements and could discern no differences in terms of accuracy, stability, PR or anything else that might impact performance in the near or long term. I get that it can exercise watch aficionados but it has been and will remain a non-issue for me, especially as I don't think IWC have been intentionally misleading their customers on this topic.

A bit surprised at the lack of decoration -- my SW300-based watches, including Sinns, all feature it.


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## Cappyab

How extensive are IWC’s improvements to the movements?


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## Rodentman

I recall that the arbor is jeweled instead of bushed, but I cannot explain that further. I have the same watch and think very highly of it, and trust IWC as the movement is made to their specs.


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## dkbs

I would say most of undecorated SW300s inside IWC are fake. Sellita does not produce undecorated SW300, as well as there is no undecorated 2892 in the market. IWC clearly said 35111 is "Côtes de Genève, perlage". 

Take a photo of crown/stem part, it is easy to identify.


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## wagenx

I bought a XVII that was lovely, until I sent it in for service to IWC and they said it was fake. I had to dump it and find a new one. It seems this price point is a big target for counterfeiters.


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## PuffPhas

Any update on the authenticity of this movement? I own a Mark XIII, but I haven't examined the movement yet.


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## Kirk B

dkbs said:


> I would say most of undecorated SW300s inside IWC are fake. Sellita does not produce undecorated SW300, as well as there is no undecorated 2892 in the market. IWC clearly said 35111 is "Côtes de Genève, perlage".
> 
> Take a photo of crown/stem part, it is easy to identify.


I have seen where IWC said that the ETA 2892 movement was decorated, but I have not found anything from them at all about the switch to the Sellita movement and whether or not that one is decorated. This is part of why I have provided the photos and wrote to IWC about this. I wanted to open the discussion with the community about this change to the Mark XVIII movements. What is special about the crown or stem that would allow someone to determine if it is a fake or not?


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## dkbs

For some reason, almost all fake crowns are too long, and slightly different design on the crown tube. I never saw a fake crown with exact same length.

For example, this is fake:










And the real one looks like this, there is no step down gap:










Sellita never made undecorated SW300 to mass market, you can call them to verify. But I am not sure the custom made movement. In history I only saw once IWC with raw movement (IWC 89360) in a limited pilot model.


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## Kirk B

dkbs, you are being extremely helpful. THANK YOU!!! That picture you shared of the fake watch is really scaring me now, as it looks exactly like the movement in my watch. I will need to verify the crown when I get home, but pictures from my phone don't look good. At your suggestion though I have reached back out to my contact with IWC customer service and sent them a picture of my movement. I am hoping to verify with them whether IWC is indeed decorating or not the Sellita movements that they currently use. I will share what I find out from them. Either way I am good. I just recently purchased my watch from a very trusted seller, but he had gotten it from an overseas AD originally, which is why I double checked the movement and started asking questions. If I have a problem I trust the seller will stand by his sale.


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## Kirk B

dkbs said:


> I would say most of undecorated SW300s inside IWC are fake. Sellita does not produce undecorated SW300, as well as there is no undecorated 2892 in the market. IWC clearly said 35111 is "Côtes de Genève, perlage".
> 
> Take a photo of crown/stem part, it is easy to identify.


Okay, I found what dkbs was referencing... it's right on the IWC website for the particular Mark XVIII model that I bought - the movement is described as having perlage:









IW327015-Pilot’s Watch Mark XVIII


This compact timepiece upholds the tradition of the iconic Mark XI and reduces the functionality and design of a typical Pilot's Watch to absolute essentials.




www.iwc.com





*MOVEMENT*

35111 CALIBRE
AUTOMATIC, SELF-WINDING
42 HOURS POWER RESERVE
FREQUENCY 28800.0 VPH (4.0 HZ)
163 COMPONENTS
25 JEWELS
*CÔTES DE GENÈVE, PERLAGE*

I will see how IWC responds to my e-mail, but I suspect that they are going to come back and tell me that my watch is a fake since it's just a basic Sellita SW300-1 movement... or is it? Seagull's ST1812 is an exact clone of the SW300-1 movement. Most likely it is a re-stamped version of that Chinese movement. It's currently running at +1 sec/day though!!!


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## Kirk B

*UPDATE 7-20-2021 - NOT FAKE*

I have finally cleared this whole question about my movement up with IWC. dkbs had said definitively that my movement was fake based on this Chinese forum post that he had read here:






万国入门真的变毛坯机芯了？_万国社区|腕表之家xbiao.com -


万国入门真的变毛坯机芯了？



bbs.xbiao.com





However, this was complete extrapolation by dkbs. The forum post actually discusses nothing about fakes. Instead, the poster is lamenting about how IWC has decreased the finishing on their watches with their current production.

I also discovered, through extensive research, that IWC changed the finishing on the clasp of the steel bracelet model (IW327015). The inside, folding portions of the clasp used to be polished on the bottom with perlage decoration on the top. Current production is now an entirely blasted texture on this section of the clasp. This change appears to have happened at the same time that IWC switched the movement to a blasted finish. Coincidence? No, I don't think so.

I had already been in contact with IWC's USA customer service and confirmed with them through e-mail that the movement should have decoration. I then called them and they confirmed over the phone that the movement is supposed to be decorated, as stated on their website. Not convinced, I implored with customer service to reach out to their service center or corporate to confirm the movement finishing. After some waiting, I finally received an answer from IWC corporate in Switzerland through customer service today. The answer is that when they switched in 2018 to the 35111 Sellita based movement the movement finishing also changed. The bridges are now without decoration. Only the rotor comes with Geneva stripes. Their website is wrong and is being corrected. I swear though that I've seen pictures of decorated 35111 movements and decorated bracelet clasps from after 2018. So, I'm not 100% convinced that this change happened in 2018. It looks more to me like it happened in early 2020. Regardless, the main information to provide to IWC Mark XVIII owners and potential owners is this:

*Current production uses a Sellita SW300-1 base movement with undecorated bridges and only Geneva stripes on the rotor. *​​I suspect that the bracelet clasp is a good indicator as to what the movement looks like. If it's on a bracelet and the clasp internal folding pieces have a blasted finish, then chances are that it has a blasted finish movement.


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## Kirk B

dkbs said:


> For some reason, almost all fake crowns are too long, and slightly different design on the crown tube. I never saw a fake crown with exact same length.
> 
> For example, this is fake:
> 
> View attachment 15995351


Just to be 100% clear in this thread and to avoid any future confusion - I have confirmed directly with IWC that the information above is incorrect. The movement and crown pictured are actually genuine IWC - this is what current production 35111 movements look like for the Mark XVIII watch.


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## dkbs

Worst(*) watches ever made in human history:

1) Panerai PAM 318 Brooklyn
2) IWC Mark 18 35111

Note: * Worst is a shorthand of "worst than fake"


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## anonymousmoose

dkbs said:


> Worst(*) watches ever made in human history:
> 
> 1) Panerai PAM 318 Brooklyn
> 2) IWC Mark 18 35111
> 
> Note: * Worst is a shorthand of "worst than fake"


Why?


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## Kirk B

dkbs said:


> Worst(*) watches ever made in human history:
> 
> 1) Panerai PAM 318 Brooklyn
> 2) IWC Mark 18 35111
> 
> Note: * Worst is a shorthand of "worst than fake"


dkbs has a point here. Does "worst than fake" really apply? Well the fakes try to copy the ETA version of the Mark XVIII - so they use a polished clasp with perlage decoration and their movements are highly decorated. The current production genuine IWC is pretty plain in comparison. Fakes are still junk though IMHO. My IWC is running at +1 sec/day with very little positional variation and no beat error. I expect that it will continue to run this way for years and years. The fakes though will quit in a short time, not be able to keep time, and the hands will fall off. You do get what you pay for, to an extent. Although not as pretty, my genuine IWC is substantially better quality. It's just disappointing that you pay several thousand dollars and now get less for your money. The use of the ETA movement was already controversial in the Mark XVIII, especially when they use a nice in-house movement in the Spitfire. People have questioned the value proposition for years. Now that they've switched to an undecorated Sellita movement and made the bracelet clasp undecorated the justification of the price is even more difficult to make!


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## UofRSpider

I would have a hard time paying retail (or anything close to) for an IWC watch with a movement they didn't manufacture - especially a Selitta.

Sent from my SM-T860 using Tapatalk


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## dkbs

Panerai already said "I am sorry" and offered to change raw 6497 movement with decorated movement. I think IWC should do the similar thing to your Mark 18...


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## LCheapo

Nice detective work, Kirk B!


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## motovmot

Very interesting


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## Julian Yeo

Wow this is very concerning to me as I picked up a mark 18 in 2018. I’m not a movement snob but I assumed that at very lease I’d be getting a fully decorated movement…..


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## Kirkawall

This Sellita or ETA trauma has evidently affected other watch brands (and owners)....









How can I found out if my recently acquired BB36 is...


I ordered my BB36 several months ago from an AD, and received it just over one month ago. I want to find out if it’s using the T600 or trusted Calibre 2824, can someone help me with this? The reference number for both the ETA and Sellita begin with 79500. That is the main reference number on my...




www.watchuseek.com













Tudor T600 is like a box of chocolates (ETA or Sellita)


TLDR: See title. Yes, I'm bringing this up again, but bear with me. Throughout several watch forums (including this great one) and various online articles, comments are filled with conjecture and stories of people taking their newish BB36 to their AD and, after having it inspected, discovering...




www.watchuseek.com













Tudor BB36 Sellita disassembled?


Hi there, I recently got a black bay 36 blue dial version and I would love to see what makes it tick! I’ve seen a couple ETA photos but more specifically would like to see if there is any plastic anywhere in this watch? Does anybody have any complete disassembly photos of this watch?? Thanks a lot!




www.watchuseek.com


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## Jonathan T

Stchambe said:


> I thought this was fairly common knowledge? The sellita movement is basically a rebranded ETA. IWC likely made the switch because they no longer wanted to or could no longer rely on the Swatch group for movements and parts.


Yes, this is well known. It's one of my beefs with getting one of the IWC Mark models. I can't justify laying down 5k on essentially a sellita movement. I need justification for spending so much. 

Kind of like how i couldn't pony up the money to buy a Panerai still based on the ETA 6497 for the prices they're asking on the used market. I'd rather spend similar amount on their in-house movements with far longer power reserves as well.


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## dlxr91

Lol... that's why I don't buy modern IWC anymore, they keep drop quality.
I still love IWC around 90s to 2000s Era.
Look the nice decorated movement even is base on eta...


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## Jonathan T

dlxr91 said:


> Lol... that's why I don't buy moden IWC anymore, they keep drop quality.
> I still love IWC around 90s to 2000s Era.
> Look the nice decorated movement even is base on eta...
> View attachment 16283046


Indeed. I’d love to get my hands on a 3706 flieger chronograph from that era. All the new iwc pilot chronos are too big and heavy and expensive.


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## dezzy

dkbs said:


> For some reason, almost all fake crowns are too long, and slightly different design on the crown tube. I never saw a fake crown with exact same length.
> 
> For example, this is fake:
> 
> View attachment 15995351
> 
> 
> And the real one looks like this, there is no step down gap:
> 
> View attachment 15995352
> 
> 
> Sellita never made undecorated SW300 to mass market, you can call them to verify. But I am not sure the custom made movement. In history I only saw once IWC with raw movement (IWC 89360) in a limited pilot model.


Actually, its the other way around. There is a step in the crown in the real version. See this post by Hokinkee.









A Week On The Wrist: The IWC Mark XVIII


It's one of the most interesting of paradoxes in modern watchmaking that such a relatively simple pilot's watch is capable of provoking such widespread and passionate reactions.




www.hodinkee.com


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## Frunkinator

Kirk B said:


> Just to be 100% clear in this thread and to avoid any future confusion - I have confirmed directly with IWC that the information above is incorrect. The movement and crown pictured are actually genuine IWC - this is what current production 35111 movements look like for the Mark XVIII watch.


This is a great post. Thanks for sharing all your investigative work.


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## helidoc

If you scroll down to the bottom of this article, there are some comments in relation to the Mark XVIII movement










Revisiting Panerai’s PAM Of Worms


Two weeks have passed since my article on Panerai’s so-called “in-house” movements spread like wildfire through the international watch community. Except for Turkmenistan, Chad, B…




perezcope.com





D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kirkawall

helidoc said:


> If you scroll down to the bottom of this article, there are some comments in relation to the Mark XVIII movement
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Revisiting Panerai’s PAM Of Worms
> 
> 
> Two weeks have passed since my article on Panerai’s so-called “in-house” movements spread like wildfire through the international watch community. Except for Turkmenistan, Chad, B…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> perezcope.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> D
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you mean these?

_Hodinkee just published an article in which they compared pilot watches from Hamilton and IWC. *The IWC features a 32110 caliber which, as was established in my last article, is without a doubt a ValFleurier movement that is also used by Cartier, Baume & Mercier and Panerai.* Hodinkee, of course, continues to refer to this movement as “in-house” even though they should know better by now. But we know who they work for, do we not?

Speaking of IWC, look at this Pilot’s Watch Mark XVIII. *It features a more or less raw Selitta SW-300*. Except for the rotor, there is no finishing at all. *According to IWC’s website, the movement should have perlage finish but this is what you get instead, which in my opinion is simply disgraceful.*_

I think the observations about the movement and degree of finishing are established now, thanks to @Kirk B and other researchers, even if the wholly undecorated movement is still surprising.

Regarding the other point, I read this series of articles a while back and was a bit bemused about the degree of outrage generated in the author by these findings, if true. All these marques are under the same corporate banner, so not sure what is regarded as so scandalous about researching, designing and building a new movement that can be shared across brands with some brand-specified differences. There are many examples from other brands, including some very high-end ones.

"In-house" seems a pretty nebulous term to me. Perhaps it's best defined as "not off the shelf or out of a parts bin that is available to anyone with a catalogue."


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## Alwaysontime12

dkbs said:


> Worst(*) watches ever made in human history:
> 
> 1) Panerai PAM 318 Brooklyn
> 2) IWC Mark 18 35111
> 
> Note: * Worst is a shorthand of "worst than fake"


While I wouldn't say the IWC is the worst, I do get where you're coming from. This is such a HUGE disappointment. IWC is a few entry level movement changes away from being taken more seriously. I just can't for the life of me figure out why these simple things are sooooooo hard for brands to figure out lately. I know someone gets paid a hefty amount to think these things through. 

If you're reading this IWC, I will gladly move to your headquarters for 1/2 the salary you're currently paying whom ever makes these absolute **** decisions and turn your brand imagine around. Consumers are getting more demanding ( as they should in this price point) and you need to keep up or you'll end up going through what Breitling is slowly digging itself out of.


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## desk jockey

Alwaysontime12 said:


> While I wouldn't say the IWC is the worst, I do get where you're coming from. This is such a HUGE disappointment. IWC is a few entry level movement changes away from being taken more seriously. I just can't for the life of me figure out why these simple things are sooooooo hard for brands to figure out lately. I know someone gets paid a hefty amount to think these things through.
> 
> If you're reading this IWC, I will gladly move to your headquarters for 1/2 the salary you're currently paying whom ever makes these absolute **** decisions and turn your brand imagine around. Consumers are getting more demanding ( as they should in this price point) and you need to keep up or you'll end up going through what Breitling is slowly digging itself out of.


I strongly suspect that IWC management have a limited, and ever-diminishing, say in all of this. Much has been said about the Richemont rot that has engulfed many brands under their ownership. IWC, Panerai, JLC - there is a common denominator there, that results in, often called out, poor customer service, disappointing quality and price structures milking past glories.

We live in the world where spreadsheet people (paid several times more than the actual watchmakers on whom the entire thing depends) gradually bleed those great brands dry, upon which they are simply discarded and have to start afresh - like Breitling (and good luck to them!).


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## TAmtb11

Not sure if anyone will see this, but to add a data point:

Purchased a 36mm Pilot's Automatic with black dial and stainless steel bracelet this past weekend in person from a local AD. This model also comes equipped with the Cal 35111. 

I had to take a look at the movement for myself and can confirm that it is a Sellita movement BUT is fully finished on both the rotor and base of movement, and with engraved text embellished with gold paint. These photos are terrible but it is actually quite beautiful in person:


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## Kirkawall

TAmtb11 said:


> Not sure if anyone will see this, but to add a data point:
> 
> Purchased a 36mm Pilot's Automatic with black dial and stainless steel bracelet this past weekend in person from a local AD. This model also comes equipped with the Cal 35111.
> 
> I had to take a look at the movement for myself and can confirm that it is a Sellita movement BUT is fully finished on both the rotor and base of movement, and with engraved text embellished with gold paint. These photos are terrible but it is actually quite beautiful in person:
> 
> View attachment 17146352
> 
> 
> View attachment 17146354
> 
> 
> View attachment 17146355


This is good to see -- and it's a heckuva timepiece. Thanks for taking to time to snap and share.


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