# El Primero in other watches



## LouS

What other companies and watches have used El Primero movements?

updated list as of April15, 2011

Boucheron - in white gold, with cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor
Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario - cal. 411 (without moonphase)
Dior Chiffre Rouge
DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 in model "Montre 1812"
Dunhill - cal. 410
Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
Ekegren Genève - 3019 PHF 
Louis Vuitton - Tambour LV277 
Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
Parmigiani - 
Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1988 - 2000/01) for Rolex Cosmograph Daytona (Cal. 400 slowed down to 28000VPH and without date)
Daniel Roth - 
Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza 
Tourneau - yellow gold - cal. 3019 PHF
Ulysse Nardin (UN cal. 10 based on cal. 400), 50 pieces in yellow gold, made in 1980's
Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen (3019 PHF)
Van Ree Watches - DNA watch (El Primero 400)
Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph
Hublot - "Spirit of Big Bang" chronograph (Cal. 400)
Bulgari (Cal. "BVL 328")
Chaumet ("Dandy" Chronograph)
Tommy Hilfiger Limited Edition Cal. 411 (effectively EP Cal. 410 minus moonphase)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

LouS said:


> What other companies and watches have used El Primero movements?
> 
> I'll start off:
> 
> TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present)
> Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1989 - ?)
> Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003)
> Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
> 
> Can anyone add more users and put dates to the uses above?


Ebel
Concord Impresario
Daniel Roth
Dunhill
Waldan International

Sorry, no dates.....:-(

Hartmut Richter


----------



## LouS

Updating original post as info comes in. Be interesting to see if we can generate a complete list.....


----------



## Hartmut Richter

LouS said:


> Updating original post as info comes in. Be interesting to see if we can generate a complete list.....


Found another one: Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")

Hartmut Richter


----------



## LouS

Interesting about Waldan International. I just had an email exchange with Mr. Oscar Waldan, who wrote me that he bought out the Primero overstock in 1980, around the time that Charly Vermot was hiding the Primero machine tools, when it looked like Zenith was getting out of the mechanical watch business. It amounted to thousands of movements, and he has been drawing on this reservoir of movements ever since. He also wrote that he brokered the introduction between Zenith and Rolex that eventually gave rise to the Rolex 4030 and that helped to capitalize Zenith for their comeback. 

Pretty fascinating, right?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

LouS said:


> Interesting about Waldan International. I just had an email exchange with Mr. Oscar Waldan, who wrote me that he bought out the Primero overstock in 1980, around the time that Charly Vermot was hiding the Primero machine tools, when it looked like Zenith was getting out of the mechanical watch business. It amounted to thousands of movements, and he has been drawing on this reservoir of movements ever since. He also wrote that he brokered the introduction between Zenith and Rolex that eventually gave rise to the Rolex 4030 and that helped to capitalize Zenith for their comeback.
> 
> Pretty fascinating, right?


Well, if he were falsifying history, at least he would be consistent. Not that I am accusing him of anything! I have read the same version in a similar discussion rather a long time ago on TimeZone. The fact of the matter is that he has been putting out watches with EP movements for 30 years or so, so that he must have had early access to the calibres.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## LouS

Wondering about the "thousands" part too. Seems to me that I remember a thread, maybe on this very forum, although I can't find it now (link please someone?), in which someone was trying for a rough estimate of the number of El P movements produced and it was only in the 35K range. 

Re: early access to the calibres. Thirty years is just about 1980, so doesn't that fit?


----------



## D N Ravenna

Hartmut Richter said:


> Well, if he were falsifying history, at least he would be consistent. Not that I am accusing him of anything! I have read the same version in a similar discussion rather a long time ago on TimeZone. The fact of the matter is that he has been putting out watches with EP movements for 30 years or so, so that he must have had early access to the calibres.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Like Hartmut, I have heard the same thing for quite some time.

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Here is a link to a Boucheron automatic chronometre in 18 K white gold on fleabay, the movement is signed Boucheron El Primero 400Z

http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150460161493&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI


----------



## LouS

It seems I can no longer edit my post as we go along, so here is the update for sempervivens observation



LouS said:


> TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza
> Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1991 - 2000), in Daytona slowed to 28000VPH
> Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
> Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
> Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
> Parmigiani -
> Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario
> Daniel Roth -
> Dunhill -
> Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph
> Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
> Boucheron - contains cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor


----------



## RyanD

A Dunhill with a 410 just sold on Ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350368557015

The Concord Impresario uses a 411 without the moon phase.


----------



## D N Ravenna

This thread has some great potential. If someone can figure out how to make a simple yet attractive version of this thread, we can put it in the stickies above!

Ideas forumers?

:-!

Dan


----------



## LouS

Dan, 

My original idea was to keep editing my original post as people posted new info, but I find that I can no longer do so. I guess the 'edit' option expires after a period of time. Is there a way to let me edit it indefinitely?


----------



## D N Ravenna

LouS said:


> Dan,
> 
> My original idea was to keep editing my original post as people posted new info, but I find that I can no longer do so. I guess the 'edit' option expires after a period of time. Is there a way to let me edit it indefinitely?


Let me check into that. It seems like perhaps it could be due to software updates, etc. I have no answer at the moment.

Dan


----------



## LouS

add DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 with sterile rotor in model "Montre 1812"

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun.cgi?10&ranfft&a&1usau&1278784802


----------



## sempervivens

On the Italian forum I saw *Ulysse Nardin* mentioned (see attachment) along with several others, among which *Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen* (also in attachment).

Personally I think UN is a very nice brand. I once owned an old UN gold wristwatch, and they were very prompt in their replies to my request for information.

(I hope that Zenith will restart their archives service).

So it seems that UN around 1980 (?) brought out a semi-skeleton UN cal. 10 based on Zenith 410 (??) See attachment. Looks like a very nice and rare gold watch (only 50 pieces produced)(BTW 24.500.000 Lire = approx. 12500 euro)


----------



## D N Ravenna

sempervivens said:


> On the Italian forum I saw *Ulysse Nardin* mentioned (see attachment) along with several others, among which *Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen* (also in attachment).
> 
> Personally I think UN is a very nice brand. I once owned an old UN gold wristwatch, and they were very prompt in their replies to my request for information.
> 
> (I hope that Zenith will restart their archives service).
> 
> So it seems that UN around 1980 (?) brought out a semi-skeleton UN cal. 10 based on Zenith 410 (??) See attachment. Looks like a very nice and rare gold watch (only 50 pieces produced)(BTW 24.500.000 Lire = approx. 12500 euro)


Interesting. I found them to be a very difficult company to deal with and the quality of their current watches? Pffft.

I have a UN pocket watch from the early 1900s (came from a relative). It has the same bridgework as their fabled 21j pocket watch, but this only came with 15 jewels.

I asked them if they could provide me a history of the watch. They replied that they could not. I was fine with that. A few months later, they sent me a history of the watch and demanded a fairly high payment in Swiss francs. Since I did not ask for the paid service, I refused to pay.

Just odd to deal with!

Cheers!

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

*Re: El Primero in other watches, other brands using El Primero*

Keeping the thread alive...I saw a *Tourneau* for sale with El Primero movement. A moonphase model (with triple date), in yellow gold

The seller claims the watch dates to 1970 and is cal. 3019 PHC ...

it probably really is a caliber 410 or 410Z

This is becoming a long list of other "watch brands" using El Primero.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

*Re: El Primero in other watches, other brands using El Primero*

The dark blue calender windows suggests it is earlier, possibly from 1969 but more likely from the early eighties (Zenith had an identical model at the time) based on old stock movements from the mid seventies.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## John Chris

*Re: El Primero in other watches, other brands using El Primero*

Some date corrections - Rolex came sniffing around Zenith in the early '80s (brokered by Waldon or not). Rolex Oyster Perpetual Daytona production using the cal. 3019/400, without date and slowed down, was from 1984-2000. Zenith Radio Corp. backed out of Zenith in about 1978 (none to soon - the only mechanical movement to survive its incompetent management was the EP). According to Roessler, total 3019 PHC production (before halted by ZRC) was 32,000.

Cheers.


----------



## sempervivens

> Some date corrections - Rolex came sniffing around Zenith in the early '80s (brokered by Waldon or not). Rolex Oyster Perpetual Daytona production using the cal. 3019/400, without date and slowed down, was from 1984-2000. Zenith Radio Corp. backed out of Zenith in about 1978 (none to soon - the only mechanical movement to survive its incompetent management was the EP). According to Roessler, total 3019 PHC production (before halted by ZRC) was 32,000.


Thanks, that is interesting. I'll add to this if I may : if you count all the different models of early Zenith El Primero's produced between 1969-1978; if you include all the different steel models, the one goldplated model, and all the gold models, mentioned by Roessler, the total is more than 37,000 pieces. On top of that, there were the movements used for the Movado Dat(ach)rons;and there was the stock of spare movements, which were still being used by Zenith in the '80s, and of which thousands were sold to Waldan.


> According to Roessler, total 3019 PHC production (before halted by ZRC) was 32,000.


 => so that number apparently only refers to the 3019PHC movements which were used for the stainless steel Zenith El Primero's watches in the 1970's. 
If you add the goldplated Zenith El Primero's, the total is 34,000. 
If you add the solid gold Zenith El Primero's the total is approx. 37,270 (Zenith El Primero's produced between 1969-1978).


----------



## sempervivens

include Louis Vuitton LV277.

Here is an update for the list in alphabetical order :

Boucheron - in white gold, with cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor
Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario - cal. 411 (without moonphase)
DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 in model "Montre 1812"
Dunhill - cal. 410
Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
Louis Vuitton - LV277
Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
Parmigiani - 
Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1984 - 2000) for Rolex Oyster Perpetual Daytona (cal. 400 slowed down to 28000VPH and without date)
Daniel Roth - 
Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza 
Tourneau - yellow gold - cal. 3019 PHF
Ulysse Nardin (UN cal. 10 based on cal. 400), 50 pieces in yellow gold, made in 1980
Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen (3019 PHF)
Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph


----------



## Gombrich

Did we mention the Dior Chiffre Rouge?

Also, does anyone know anything about this?
Zenith Ekegren Chronomaster in 950 Platin Vintage Uhr on eBay (end time 07-Dec-10 17:36:25 GMT)

Dave


----------



## Ray916MN

*Re: El Primero in other watches, other brands using El Primero*

Louis Vuitton Tambour LV277


----------



## sempervivens

Here is an update for the list in alphabetical order :

Boucheron - in white gold, with cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor
Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario - cal. 411 (without moonphase)
Dior Chiffre Rouge
DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 in model "Montre 1812"
Dunhill - cal. 410
Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
Ekegren Genève - 3019 PHF 
Louis Vuitton - LV277
Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
Parmigiani - 
Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1984 - 2000) for Rolex Oyster Perpetual Daytona (cal. 400 slowed down to 28000VPH and without date)
Daniel Roth - 
Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza 
Tourneau - yellow gold - cal. 3019 PHF
Ulysse Nardin (UN cal. 10 based on cal. 400), 50 pieces in yellow gold, made in 1980
Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen (3019 PHF)
Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Damn - missed the LV277 in the list (although I knew about it long ago.....)!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## v76

Recently, there was this bit of news from Ernie:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/wor...new-dna-watch-el-primero-movement-470717.html


----------



## sempervivens

Very good, Van Ree's DNA watch is # 20 in the list.

Boucheron - in white gold, with cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor
Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario - cal. 411 (without moonphase)
Dior Chiffre Rouge
DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 in model "Montre 1812"
Dunhill - cal. 410
Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
Ekegren Genève - 3019 PHF 
Louis Vuitton - Tambour LV277 
Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
Parmigiani - 
Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1984 - 2000) for Rolex Cosmograph Daytona (cal. 400 slowed down to 28000VPH and without date)
Daniel Roth - 
Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza 
Tourneau - yellow gold - cal. 3019 PHF
Ulysse Nardin (UN cal. 10 based on cal. 400), 50 pieces in yellow gold, made in 1980's
Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen (3019 PHF)
Van Ree Watches - DNA watch (El Primero 400)
Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph


----------



## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> Very good, Van Ree's DNA watch is # 20 in the list.


At the current going rate, by Christmas, we might have the full 24 to make up an advent calender! b-)

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Ed.YANG

Found this thread by Googling... woooh... nice list of other label watches for reference!
It's more than 2yrs since the last posts... i wonder any updates on the list?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Getting scarce. Eventually, we will have to run out of additions - unless Zenith make the movement generally available once again. Unlikely, though.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## WTSP

sempervivens said:


> Very good, Van Ree's DNA watch is # 20 in the list.
> 
> Boucheron - in white gold, with cal 400Z branded "Boucheron El Primero" on rotor
> Concord - ( ? - 2002) Impresario - cal. 411 (without moonphase)
> Dior Chiffre Rouge
> DuBois & Fils - Zenith cal 410 in model "Montre 1812"
> Dunhill - cal. 410
> Ebel - Calibre 134 (approx 1984-1994?)
> Ekegren Genève - 3019 PHF
> Louis Vuitton - Tambour LV277
> Movado - Datron HS 360 (1969 - 1974)
> Panerai - Calibre OP IV (2000-2003) in PAM 72
> Parmigiani -
> Rolex - Rolex 4030 (1984 - 2000) for Rolex Cosmograph Daytona (cal. 400 slowed down to 28000VPH and without date)
> Daniel Roth -
> Kurth Schaffo ("Chrono d'Oro")
> TAGHeuer - Calibre 36 ( ? - present), in Grand Carrera, Link, Monza
> Tourneau - yellow gold - cal. 3019 PHF
> Ulysse Nardin (UN cal. 10 based on cal. 400), 50 pieces in yellow gold, made in 1980's
> Urban Jurgenssen Copenhagen (3019 PHF)
> Van Ree Watches - DNA watch (El Primero 400)
> Waldan International - (current, uses vintage movements purchased in 1980) Astronic Chronograph


Let's add the Hublot Spirit of Big Bang El Primero to the list! Not my cup of tea in terms of design, but Richard Mille eat your heart out...
Hublot Launches Tonneau-Shaped "Spirit of Big Bang" During SIHH 2014 Week | WATCHTIME.COM


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Oh groan! Yet another Hublot watch that makes me want to (r)eject my dinner after consumption! I will do my best to blame Hublot and LVMH for this rather than Zenith. Still, I suppose it's got to go on the list (*SIGH!*). Thanks for the notification and I'll edit the original post.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## georges zaslavsky

I heard that Bulgari used the El Primero too, is that correct?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Seems like they do now. They must have acquired the rights to it by being taken over by LVMH.

Watches by SJX: Baselworld 2013: Bulgari Bulgari reboot - with in-house movement automatic and El Primero chronograph (with specs and price)

I have edited the original post to include them.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Rdenney

Just a couple of corrections:

The Ebel Chrono-Sport (aka Sport Classic Chronograph) used the caliber 134 starting in 1982, and they introduced the Modulor, which was the first watch to use their Caliber 137, in 1995, the year after they were acquired by Investcorp. They introduced the Perpetual Calendar Chronograph (caliber 136) in 1984. There is some question about when they _stopped_ using the caliber 134 in chronograph watches--Roland Ranfft thinks they continued to do so into the early 2000's to use up old stock, based on parts catalogs. From 1999 to 2004, they were owned by LVMH, but apparently any EP's they used were old stock, not fresh from Zenith. I've seen Ebel watches for sale by Movado dating back to the late 90's, including at least one Modulor, but have never seen on in those stores with an EP. If I did, it would. be. mine. But clearly they could not have stopped using the EP before 1995, when the cal. 137 was ready to go into watches. The 137 was designed to go into the same cases, and is the same size, mounting, dial arrangement, and hand mount as the EP.

I have seen but no longer have a picture of an early Ebel Chrono-Sport with a Zenith movement marked Cal. 40.0, the transitional marking between 3019PHC and 400.

(Aside: Interestingly, Ebel mentions not one word about the Caliber 137-equipped watches--the Modulor, the 1911 Chronograph, the E-type chronograph, the 1911 BTR line, or the Tekton line--in their chronology. It's as if designing and making their own movement is an embarassment to them now. Or to MGI. Sheesh. The caliber 137 was Ebel's Lemania-based replacement for the EP, which Zenith was apparently less enthusiastic about providing to them once they were being used in Rolexes. Ebel developed the 137 from '91 to '95.)

And Rolex did not use the EP in 1984, but rather starting in 1988, according to a recent Hodinkee article (plus I've read it in several other places, too--probably the same places Hodinkee found). Rolex used it until Zenith was bought by LVMH in 1999, at which time they were no longer available to Rolex and they went ahead with their planned 4031. They may well have used up what they had into 2000.

Rick "noting that Pierre-Alain Blum of Ebel was the first to persuade Zenith to sell EP's after the break in production" Denney


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the added information - that's useful.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Rdenney

I have just acquired an Ebel Sport Classic Chronograph. It has a 1911-style bracelet, which didn't come out until 1986, and the movement is marked "40.0", which, according to Rössler, was made only in 1986. That dates this watch pretty well, unless Ebel bought a large stock in 1986 and took several years to use them up. Either way, it's a data point.

















Rick "noting the simple finish except for the perlage on the reverser wheel" Denney


----------



## WTSP

Here we go again. I believe we have another one for the list.

*Chaumet Dandy Chronograph
*
Chaumet is a jeweler that belongs to the LVMH group. I think they should come out with a model featuring the Elite caliber. It would probably fit with their styling, perhaps for a ladies line...









Chaumet Dandy Chronographe platine Edition Limitée El Primero


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Many thanks for the update. I have edited the original post accordingly. I must say that those who complained about the, ehrm, "novel" designs of the Nataf era would probably raise their eyebrows to at least an equal extent on this one.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## WTSP

Hartmut Richter said:


> Many thanks for the update. I have edited the original post accordingly. I must say that those who complained about the, ehrm, "novel" designs of the Nataf era would probably raise their eyebrows to at least an equal extent on this one.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


You're very welcome. Thank you for updating the original list so consistently.

I have to say that this is neither the ugliest nor the most attractive El Primero based watch. I believe this is the calibre 4002. I like the color, the matching date wheel and the white irregular grid motif. It's rather technical, or architectural, while remaining elegant. On the down side the absence of hour markers is irritating (even if it is necessary in keeping with the style) and the large case accentuates the closeness of the subdials relative to the center.

Still, I'd need to see it on my wrist!


----------



## WTSP

I have another one to add to the list. The Tommy Hilfiger limited edition with caliber 411, model number 60.G9.1890, on 18 carat white gold.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Added. Thanks for pointing that out. Phew! - a Cal. 410 minus moonphase?! Maybe they thought it didn't suit such a sporty watch.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## -endo-

There were quite a few Panerais, although the 72/74, and 121,122's are pretty rare beasts as they got introduced around the same time Zenith stopped supplying EP movements to Panerai, so a full run was never completed and only a handful made it into the wild.

PAM00072 - 40mm Luminor, Ti/Steel, Date, Black dial, bracelet, (PAM00074, strap)
PAM00122 - 40mm Luminor, Ti/Steel Date, slate grey dial, bracelet (PAM00121, strap)
PAM00052 - 40mm Luminor, Ti/Steel, No Date, black dial, bracelet
PAM00108 - 40mm Luminor, AMG LE

Some pics of my former 122, lovely to wear but I always found it a tad small for the Luminor case design


----------



## georges zaslavsky

A small mistake regarding the Rolex El Primero version named the 4030 was introduced only in 1988 not in 1984 and lasted till 2000/2001
https://beckertime.com/blog/the-rolex-caliber-4030/


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Edited accordingly. Thanks for the info.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## georges zaslavsky

Hartmut Richter said:


> Edited accordingly. Thanks for the info.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


You are welcome


----------



## probep

The Rolex contract was signed in 1984; the first finished movements were delivered to Rolex in 1986; the first Daytonas with the new caliber were introduced to the public at the 1988 Basel show.

From Manfred Rössler's book "Zenith: Swiss Watch Manufacture Since 1865", p.108


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for that info too - I'll leave it at 1988 one the basis of the production and availability of the watches.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## JDMLS430

Very informative. I only knew of the Daytona. Who knew so much more had the zenith movements


----------



## WTSP

JDMLS430 said:


> Very informative. I only knew of the Daytona. Who knew so much more had the zenith movements


It's just a good move to include the greatest chronograph movement of all time in at least one or two models within one's line.


----------



## JDMLS430

WTSP said:


> It's just a good move to include the greatest chronograph movement of all time in at least one or two models within one's line.


I hear ya. Zenith movements are top notch


----------

