# Newbie lubrication Q.



## EmJot (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm lost in lubrication. I found way too much information on the subject. Retailers are not helpful as they list so many types of lubricants with overlapping description. On lubrication charts for ETA mechanical movements there are some 7 or more oils and greases needed. But reading this article Oils: Clock and Watch Lubrication - Horology I came to simplified conclusion that I need 4 types. My selection would be: 9415, 9020, 9010 and D-5. Does this make any sense? Ofrei starter kit is this: 9010, 9020, 941, 8200, D-5, 8030, 8040. Obviously I am looking to save some money . Is it possible? Also are there any cheaper substitutions to Moebius without compromising much quality?


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

It depends on the types of watches you are servicing. D5, 9010, 9415, are the basic oils and 8200 is a mainspring grease. 8300 is often used in old pocket watches in place of D5 for keyless works, etc., and Molybdenum Sulfide is for slipping bridles, and there is also a Moly white for various chronograph lube points. These are quality oils and greases, and since such small quantities are used, the tiny bottle lasts a long time. Various companies insist on certain lubricants for their particular watches, and I follow this for the modern watches. For vintage watches, the above named lubes are really the best. There may be cheaper alternatives, but I cannot confirm their effectiveness or lack thereof, and I am in no position to take a chance with a customer's watch. We are currently experiencing problems with a new clock oil, and it looks like it was a mistake to use it, but we are still collecting feedback.


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

EmJot said:


> I'm lost in lubrication. I found way too much information on the subject. Retailers are not helpful as they list so many types of lubricants with overlapping description. On lubrication charts for ETA mechanical movements there are some 7 or more oils and greases needed. But reading this article Oils: Clock and Watch Lubrication - Horology I came to simplified conclusion that I need 4 types. My selection would be: 9415, 9020, 9010 and D-5. Does this make any sense? Ofrei starter kit is this: 9010, 9020, 941, 8200, D-5, 8030, 8040. Obviously I am looking to save some money . Is it possible? Also are there any cheaper substitutions to Moebius without compromising much quality?


A starter kit for a hobbyist who mainly services vintage low beat movements would be:
1. Cheap option: Novostar Type B, Novostar Type R, KT-22 grease. Optional: Novostar Barrel Grease, Novostar Winding Grease.
2. Expensive option: moebius 9010, moebius hp1300 (instead of D-5), KT-22. optional: moebius 941 ( up to 21600 bph) or 9415 for 28800, but you would also want /need epilame.


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## dacattoo (Jan 9, 2011)

I think your choices are solid. You need oil for train pivots (9010), pallet stones (9415) and setworks and barrels (D5). You might add a grease for automatic mainsprings. KT22 is silicon grease and is suitable for gaskets only. Buy the best you can afford because they will probably last you a long, long time. There are many more modern lubricants but the choices you have made were used for a long time in watchmaking.


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

dacattoo said:


> KT22 is silicon grease and is suitable for gaskets only.


Really? KT-22 microlubricant is used as a stem grease and in the setting/winding mechanisms.


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

To the OP: If you look at the lubrication chart for the ubiquitous ETA2836-2 movement, it lists the following products:

1. Moebius 9010, 
2. Moebius HP-1300 or Moebius D5, 
3. Moebius 941 or Moebius 9415, and 
4. Moebius 9501 or Jismaa 124 (only used in one place)

I heard that HP-1300 is preferred over D5. HP-1300 is a synthetic lubricant with a shelf life of 6 years, whereas D5 only has 2 years of shelf life. While D5 is much cheaper per ml ($39 for 20ml vs $29 for 2 ml of HP-1300), HP-1300 will last you a long time unless you repair watches for a living. So by buying 2ml of HP-1300 you will be saving money. Hope this helps.

PS. It should also be noted, that both Moebius and ETA are owned by Swatch Group.


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## EmJot (Feb 2, 2012)

I’m more toward 7001 then 2836-2. It will be awhile until I open my new 2824-2 (B&M Classima). At this moment I have this old IWC cal.62 that nobody wants to touch. I ordered 9415, 9020, 9010 and D-5 as my starting point. I will add some 8000 series for my vintage clock and then expand with all your recommendations.
And I thought lubrication is simple and cheap: couple types of viscosity, add some antioxidation and preservatives maybe some graphite. It is probably all well known in oil industry. What military uses for long term preservation and lubrication? Well, we are in Swatch hands…
Michael


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## dacattoo (Jan 9, 2011)

Not me. Jisma is a better choice. I think D5, the choice for years, is even better silicon grease.


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

Oh- I've been using a very light grade, synthetic motor oil.

My my -- I expect the watches I have used this on will self destruct in about a hundred years.

This Moebius / ETA alignment and the ludicrous price for a few ccs of oil reminds me of the concept of snake oil......

Snake oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't mind me - I'm just ignorant, but I'm also very alive to the 'The Emperor's New Clothes' syndrome, which seems to have more than a little application to this issue.

The Emperor's New Clothes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let's analyse the lubrication issues here:

Ultra low rubbing speeds

Low temperature

Moderate load in almost all bearings

High grade bearing surfaces

Doesn't add up to a particularly demanding set of conditions. Tribology is normally straining to meet the needs of 200,000 rpm gas turbine rotor bearings carrying shafts which develop tens of thousands of horse power rather than devices whose bearings reciprocate at 5 or 6 or 7 htz, or have a mainspring barrel whose rotation is infinitesimally slow and has a pressure of a few ounces at most.

The fact that my dad's 1946 omega bumper still keeps time to within 1 second a day when worn after 63 years of 24/7 use and about four services in its whole life tells a lot. It was stopped when I inherited it this year, gummed up with dried mineral oil. It had stopped in 2009 and was then twenty years from its last service. I removed the hands and dial and dunked the movement in white gas for a few minutes. It started up and ran strongly. Then I sprayed the inside with servisol 50, a switch cleaning compound which contains about 2% of very light oil. I kept this well away from the balance and hair spring, and later applied a small amount of the same material on a fine blunted hypodermic needle to the balance staff jewels. It is keeping time to a second a day and fortunately, tends to fluctuate one way or the other so that I never need to put it right. It's nearly as consistent as my Tissot quartz.


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

Tony, you just painted a big target on your back! The Moebius/Swatch assassins are en route. It was good knowing you! Don't mess with the Swiss.

Do you know what happened to the house painter and his wife who discovered that enamel paint looks great on fingernails and is more durable than that expensive stuff she used to buy at the department store? They had an unfortunate accident. Brakes failed. Incidentally, they were also experimenting with the brake fluid. Who needs to pay for this stuff anyway?


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

LOL - thanks for the warning VBOMEGA. 

The analogy is amusing, but then I didn't advocate greasing up your Omega with high melting point hub grease, so house paint on finger nails and fooling with brake fluid are not exact comparisons to what I said, through pretty funny.

I expect the special snake oil recommended by swatch for their watches and made by swatch is about twenty times as expensive per gallon as the stuff Rolls Royce recommend for their 200,000 rpm, 50,000 horse power turbine shafts. The differences in tribological demand are pretty stark. They aren't in the same universe. 

SWATCH is very busy cranking up its profits, restricting ebauches, spare parts for repair, and boosting prices at every turn. They are eagerly constructing a situation where their watches are luxury items and servicing is extortionate. Watch purchase, ownership, and service is rapidly becoming like the top end perfume market, where a few ccs of liquid is sold at 200 times its manufacturing cost on the justification (which I have heard with my own ears) that customers regard perfume as a luxury purchase and that paying a lot for it is a part of their pleasure.

Just my opinion. I'm happy to change it if I read some convincing evidence.


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## fliegher (Feb 24, 2012)

I am inclined to agree that the lubricants, if we could consult a chemical engineer and source them generic from aerospace engineering sources, would be far cheaper than Moebius at something approaching gram for gram tradeable for gold. Is there anyone with an honest reputation splitting the professional Moebius synthetics up and selling them in tiny vials for hobbyists? $20 for a full four set of lubes for just one or two watches would be a big profit for the seller and a big favor to the amateur community as opposed to $120 for far more lube than I could use before it goes out of date.


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

I pay about £25 a gallon for a really high grade oil for my VW 2 ltr TDI. It has particularly challenging needs because the single cam shaft runs not only the over head valves, but also each cylinder's diesel pump.This means the cam lobes have to be much narrower than normal, radically increasing the surface pressure on each. they still have the same job to do, narrow or not. The pumps (x4) pressurise the fuel in the injector to 200 atmospheres or 3000 psi. This oil runs at about 95 degrees C in the sump and much more as it circulates around the engine. I replace it yearly, or at 25,000 miles, a distance which corresponds to about fifty million cycles of the engine. Keep in mind the shaft diameter and the consequent rubbing speed of the crankshaft, pistons etc. The crank has journals of about 7 inches circumference, so while cruising at 70 mph, the crank bearings have a rubbing speed of 1562 feet per minute at 2500 rpm. Rubbing speed is a crucial issue in lubrication. That crankshaft bearing rubbing speed is a third of a mile a minute. 

Now consider the size of watch pivots. While it is true that they are very fine and therefore can accomodate only small amounts of wear, their tiny size means that even if they rotated at high speed, their rubbing speed would be minute. They don't rotate at speed of course. Even the most rapid moving, on the balance staff will rub at about 9mm per second. The load on this bearing is also minute.

Like I said, this special oil for the TDI engine is £25 a gallon. How does running hardened pivots at ultra low speed and laughably different surface pressures require such extraordinarily expensive lubricants?

This is a con, and a very big con at that, just as are the artificially inflated servicing prices people like Rolex force on repairers in contracts they sign to gte access to parts. We are being ripped off big time.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

The big difference in automotive oil and watch oil is the viscosity, weight, flow properties, additives and working temperature range.....

Oil is not universal. There are many different grade for a reason.

Light watch oil has a Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C of 3.5cSt, and @40 C - 16cSt
Heavy watch oil (or clock oil) runs around 4.1 cSt @100 C and 15.5 cSt @40 C
5W30 has a Kinematic Viscosity of around 13 cSt @ 100 C and 65 cSt @ 40

The viscosity index for watch and clock oils is around 100 to 110, for Automotive oils it is up in the 170 range.

Further, engine oil is designed to flow, as it is to be pumped to the locations where it will be used; watch oil is designed to not flow, as it is used in static wells.

I come from an aerospace background and we tend to prefer one grade of oil for everything (MIL-PRF-23633, Mobile Jet II, ASTO 500, or similar), but that comes at a price of designing relatively low speed gearboxes (300 to 1000 rpm) to run on the same oil as a turbofan (10 to 15 K rpm) or an airpac turbine running at 20,K rpm. And, you can see what happens if someone puts ASF 12 (MIL-L-6085 equivalent) in a gearbox designed for MIL-PRF-23699, even though these two are closer in properties than watch and automobile oil.

Sometimes you just cannot design things to run on a common oil and have to use a different grade of oil. Do all cars use engine oil in the differential? No.

You state that your car engine needs a special grade of oil due to high loading. Nothing come without a price. To increase the oils ability to withstand high loads something else had to be traded-off. Did you ever think that because watches are not highly loaded, they are tailored in other areas?

Will the watch work with Mobile One in it? Sure, but a watch will also work without any oil in it. The question is how long and how well....


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

lysanderxiii said:


> The big difference in automotive oil and watch oil is the viscosity, weight, flow properties, additives and working temperature range.....
> 
> Oil is not universal. There are many different grade for a reason.
> 
> ...


well said as always )


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate your detailed remarks.

I do not doubt that the oil in a watch should ideally be different to that in my VW engine, the question is, what about its particular need requires that it is as expensive per gramme as gold is?



> Like I said, this special oil for the TDI engine is £25 a gallon. How does running hardened pivots at ultra low speed and laughably different surface pressures require such extraordinarily expensive lubricants?
> 
> This is a con, and a very big con at that, just as are the artificially inflated servicing prices people like Rolex force on repairers in contracts they sign to gte access to parts.


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## Mr modnaR (Dec 12, 2009)

tony1951 said:


> Thank you for your perspective. I appreciate your detailed remarks.
> 
> I do not doubt that the oil in a watch should ideally be different to that in my VW engine, the question is, what about its particular need requires that it is as expensive per gramme as gold is?


I don't think it's a requirement of the oil that puts its price that high, it is the small volumes it is manufactured (or, more likely, sold) in. Also comparing the price of oil to the price of gold is slightly 'chalk and cheesy' as there is a finite amount of gold, which means it has actual value. The high price of the oil comes from R&D costs and the desire for profit which can change according to demand.

Regarding the oil designed for watch use, I would think that oil molecule size would play a part on the small scales seen in watch bearings as well and this could be a reason why automotive oils would not be suitable. That is speculation, of course, but well founded speculation, I hope!


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

vbomega said:


> I heard that HP-1300 is preferred over D5. HP-1300 is a synthetic lubricant with a shelf life of 6 years, whereas D5 only has 2 years of shelf life.


Eh? Seriously? *$1,500 a litre* and a 2 year shelf life?? :-d:rodekaart

So if I have a watch serviced and it's lubed with an oil that's been on the shelf for a year and a half does that mean I'll have to take it back in 6 months? Surely it can't degrade at that rate? If it costs that much I'd be expecting the manufacturers to have put some urgent research into a stabilising additive of some sort or change the friggin' recipe sharpish! Even common motor oils are loaded with trace compounds that have been meticulously researched over the past century at least so there's plenty of 'prior art' out there, it's not as if Moebius et al have to reinvent oil from scratch.


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

Mr modnaR said:


> I don't think it's a requirement of the oil that puts its price that high, it is the small volumes it is manufactured (or, more likely, sold) in.


But small 20ml bottles of light grade oil are available for things like sewing machines for a few quid which sort of cocks that line of reasoning.



Mr modnaR said:


> Also comparing the price of oil to the price of gold is slightly 'chalk and cheesy' as there is a finite amount of gold, which means it has actual value.


And oil isn't a finite resource?



Mr modnaR said:


> The high price of the oil comes from R&D costs...


See above post/s. As I said they're not reinventing light lubrication oils from first principles are they? Motor, machine tool and aviation oils have been developing incrementaly over the decades so I assume that oils for horological use have too. Do modern oils posess any real quantifiable performance differences over those used 40 years ago?



Mr modnaR said:


> ...and the desire for profit which can change according to demand.


I think you've nailed it right there.



Mr modnaR said:


> Regarding the oil designed for watch use, I would think that oil molecule size would play a part on the small scales seen in watch bearings as well and this could be a reason why automotive oils would not be suitable. That is speculation, of course, but well founded speculation, I hope!


Doubting that as a price driver. I haven't done the Angstrom maths but at the molecular scale a watch pinion would be of a diameter akin to that of C.E.R.N. itself. And as Tony pointed up it's not as though they have to accomodate particularly onerous operating conditions. Watches don't run at 400[SUP]0[/SUP]C with an internal case pressure of 150psi and neither is the poor old winding rotor expected to maintain 6,000 rpm hour after hour. Apart from a having applicable lubricative properties, low 'creep' and workable viscosity, all it has to do is not degrade/evaporate over a commercially viable period between services, 6-8 yrs maybe. To quote Jeremy Clarkson... "How hard can it be?"



tony1951 said:


> Just my opinion. I'm happy to change it if I read some convincing evidence.


Ditto


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

The Guvnah said:


> Eh? Seriously? *$1,500 a litre* and a 2 year shelf life?? :-d:rodekaart
> 
> So if I have a watch serviced and it's lubed with an oil that's been on the shelf for a year and a half does that mean I'll have to take it back in 6 months? Surely it can't degrade at that rate? If it costs that much I'd be expecting the manufacturers to have put some urgent research into a stabilising additive of some sort or change the friggin' recipe sharpish! Even common motor oils are loaded with trace compounds that have been meticulously researched over the past century at least so there's plenty of 'prior art' out there, it's not as if Moebius et al have to reinvent oil from scratch.


The shelf life is stated as 2 years so that if you use it at the end of the shelf life, it will be fine in the watch until the next service interval is up - approx. 5 years.

It seems fashionable here to rant and rail against the cost of watch oils and lubricants, and extrapolate the cost with volumes that 100 watchmakers would never use in a lifetime to exaggerate the point. In the big picture with all of the costs associated with watchmaking, oils make up a pretty small portion of what's invested in my shop. In fact it's so small I never give it a second thought. The cost might significant for a hobbyist, but if you have anything close to a modern shop with up to date equipment, it is but a drop of oil in the proverbial bucket, so to speak. 

And regarding this:



The Guvnah said:


> But small 20ml bottles of light grade oil are available for things like sewing machines for a few quid which sort of cocks that line of reasoning.


Of course the light weight sewing machine oil is made in far larger volumes than watch oils are (I think you know that). So packaging size is not the issue, but production volumes are.

But hey, if you feel motor oil, whale oil, or whatever is "just as good" that's fine with me. If you are using these on your own watches I don't think anyone really cares. It's a different story if you are servicing other people's watches though, and have to stand behind your work. Just one chronograph coming back would pay for the oils you are so sure are a rip off. It's not worth the risk to use anything but the best oils for the job, as per the manufacturer's recommendations. It would be nice if they were cheaper, but really it's not a big deal, at least to me.

Just another perspective from someone who uses these oils every day.

Cheers, Al


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

Archer said:


> The shelf life is stated as 2 years so that if you use it at the end of the shelf life, it will be fine in the watch until the next service interval is up - approx. 5 years.


OK that's shed light on that part for me.



Archer said:


> ...oils make up a pretty small portion of what's invested in my shop. In fact it's so small I never give it a second thought. The cost might significant for a hobbyist,


Yes that's my particular point here although even if I was in the trade I'd be quizzing my maker's reps heavily about their warranting of one oil and the exclusion of others backed with the facts based on qualitative comparisons. I used to own a dive centre and we had responsibility for servicing life-critical equipment but if for instance Mares, Beauchat and Apeks had tried in concert to sanction only one particular brand of silicone grease for use in their regulators then I'd be considering a law suit unless they slapped a peer reviewed and published technical report in front of me exposing the urgent inadequacies of their competitor's products.



Archer said:


> And regarding this:
> 
> Of course the light weight sewing machine oil is made in far larger volumes than watch oils are (I think you know that).


My contention is that an ostensibly very similar base product is _marketed_ in greater volumes as a machine oil. Again without some serious tech input on the subject I refuse to believe that there is any rare and exotic additions in watch oils that justify the price differential. I'm guessing that very similar if not identical products are used in laboratories, medical tools, aerospace, miniature locomotive modelling and a whole host of other fields.
I've got to ask, has there been any great technical leap forward in movement oils in the past 40 years that yeilded appreciable performance improvement over those used post-war?


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

The Guvnah said:


> Yes that's my particular point here although even if I was in the trade I'd be quizzing my maker's reps heavily about their warranting of one oil and the exclusion of others backed with the facts based on qualitative comparisons. I used to own a dive centre and we had responsibility for servicing life-critical equipment but if for instance Mares, Beauchat and Apeks had tried in concert to sanction only one particular brand of silicone grease for use in their regulators then I'd be considering a law suit unless they slapped a peer reviewed and published technical report in front of me exposing the urgent inadequacies of their competitor's products.


For a $100 bottle of oil that lasts a very long time, you would launch law suits? Really? I service watches from many different brands, so for me to take each brand to task on what they specify is really a waste of my time. It's actually much more cost effective to buy what they suggest, and service one more watch to pay for that bottle of oil than it would be to quibble over the oil types with every brand that I service.

In addition, you may not fully understand what it's like in the industry with regards to things like access to replacement parts. If the brand says "use this oil in order to have a parts account with us" then I use that oil. Considering they require you to have equipment that costs tens of thousands of dollars to get access to parts, I am not going to jeapoardize my account, and therefore my ability to make a living, over the cost of a bottle of oil I replace every 2 years. The advice to pick your battles wisely would apply here mate.



The Guvnah said:


> My contention is that an ostensibly very similar base product is _marketed_ in greater volumes as a machine oil. Again without some serious tech input on the subject I refuse to believe that there is any rare and exotic additions in watch oils that justify the price differential. I'm guessing that very similar if not identical products are used in laboratories, medical tools, aerospace, miniature locomotive modelling and a whole host of other fields.
> I've got to ask, has there been any great technical leap forward in movement oils in the past 40 years that yeilded appreciable performance improvement over those used post-war?


I agree a similar base oil is likely used across many industries. I have no details on what additives are used, but it seems you don't either. Again it's not a really hot button issue for most watchmakers to be honest. The price fluctuation in replacement parts costs due to the rise the Swiss Franc could wipe out any savings on oils that you would gain for all this quizzing and lawsuits you are referring to.

Anyway, I think we can agree they are expensive, but really seem to disagree that it's a big issue.

Cheers, Al


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

ok archer leave them be, enough is said

i would recommend them next time when they buy a new car instead taking it to the manufacturer service for exchange of oil, they should pour themselves cooking oils as its even cheaper than the motor oil.

will you do that guys??

i suggest you do it and see what happens.

i wonder what would happen if empire state building was built with clay instead of concrete and steel as its less expensive, which the architects proposed to be used.



its simple

manufacturers propose what they think its best for their movements, its your choice if you follow their instructions or not.

i did and i will follow them always no matter the price.

besides all the oils needed in watchmaking cost less than 200 euros combined(and they last for years), that is the money you take if you make a complete overhaul on every of the high end brand watches.


sorry for maybe being rude but this is my point of view


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Don't confuse "shelf life" with "service life":

From Nye lubricants



> * Is shelf life the same as functional life?*
> 
> No, shelf life is not the same as functional life. Shelf life is the period following the lubricant's manufacture during which it is deemed suitable for use without re-testing its physical characteristics. Functional life is determined by durability or accelerated life testing of a lubricant in a component under expected operating conditions. It should be noted that most lubricants manufactured at Nye are designed for lifetime component lubrication, which often exceeds 10 years in extreme operation conditions.
> 
> ...


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## 6498ghoul (Feb 1, 2012)

The question is not "is this oil the same thing in a different package" but rather "is this oil special enough to warrant the price?" The answer is yes, if it means that warranties are honored, parts last the expected service life, etc. Sometimes the value in a chemical commodity is in the assurances that come with it rather than the collection of molecules. I'm an analytical chemist - believe me, the most expensive watch oil you can find isn't a patch on a specialty chemical with a purity assay attached that has a very limited demand... we're talking hundreds of dollars per mL. This may never come into play if you are an amateur tinkerer that won't try to pursue someone else later if your watch fails. If you imagine the scene when a professional is talking to the manufacturer about a prematurely-failed watch... "Did you use the prescribed lubricant schedule?" "No, but I used something just as good..." "CLICK...dialtone...."

Don't want to buy the M-mafia products? Try something else with some intelligent substitution, but be vigilant for signs that you made a bad choice. If you're twitchy about that sort of thing (like a lot of WISs seem to be) maybe you should tear down your watch every year to make sure it's not wearing prematurely... or use the right stuff, mark your calendar for five years hence and go do something slightly more fun.


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

emso said:


> ok archer leave them be, enough is said
> 
> i would recommend them next time when they buy a new car instead taking it to the manufacturer service for exchange of oil, they should pour themselves cooking oils as its even cheaper than the motor oil.
> 
> ...


Yes - you were rude weren't you - and you're not sorry either or you wouldn't have left it the way you did.

The example you give is ridiculous. No one suggested using cooking oil but you. Your post brought nothing to the debate, unlike the others which were excellent, highly informative and polite.

I still think it is odd that highly knowledgeable people are prepared to accept the restrictive trade practices of the watch industry giants. There have been moves in the UK scene in relation to motor car warranties to stop the manufacturers dictating to customers, for example insisting that servicing is performed by their dealership chains. The fact that the big watch firms can insist on oils of particular manufacture rather than specification on pain of preventing access to parts is a scandal, plain and simple, and I STILL am CONVINCED that they are intent on hiking their own profits above all else in the way they use their power.


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

i just made the same parallel as you did.
you mentioned motor oil for watches and i did the same by saying cooking oil for your car. its the same comparison if you ask me.

also why would breitling, rolex, tag heuer and a lot of other non swatchgroup brands make profit to swatchgroup by bying their oils if they were not good?? 

maybe they should make us use the motor oil as it is cheaper as you propose or maybe you should as an expert, suggest to manufacturers of movements that they use wd40 as it is also good for opening screws and nuts instead the oils?

i will continue to use their proposed oils as it is the professional way and the only right way.You can use whatever you like as i said i wont mind


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

tony1951 said:


> I still think it is odd that highly knowledgeable people are prepared to accept the restrictive trade practices of the watch industry giants. There have been moves in the UK scene in relation to motor car warranties to stop the manufacturers dictating to customers, for example insisting that servicing is performed by their dealership chains. The fact that the big watch firms can insist on oils of particular manufacture rather than specification on pain of preventing access to parts is a scandal, plain and simple, and I STILL am CONVINCED that they are intent on hiking their own profits above all else in the way they use their power.


When it comes down to making a living or not, there's not a lot of choice but to accept what they offer (at least from those who offer anything). Sure, I could tell Brand X that I don't want to use their specified oils, and buy the equipment they want me to have, and then not get their parts. But I'm not sure I can make a decent living fixing pocket watches and vintage Bulovas, which is most of what I would be left servicing.

I agree that profits are the primary motive, and there have been lawsuits in the US, and with the one "victory" not much has changed. The maybe 5,000 watchmakers in the US (and much fewer here in Canada) have little power in this scenario unfortunately, because as long as the consumer who is buying the watches is content to buy from companies that restrict parts, and through that force the consumer to have their watch serviced only by the company, I doubt things will change.

And one thing I wanted to mention - you spoke of the watch industry giants being the offenders. Well it's not an "industry giants" problem and not a "Swiss" problem, as even small companies follow the same restrictive practices. Just one example - ever tried to buy a new screw down crown for a Kobold? I have, and the answer was they have a blanket policy against selling spare parts, so the watch must be sent in. This means regardless of the qualifications, the equipment you have, etc., they won't sell you any case parts (yes you can buy parts for a strap or bracelet, but no case parts). Not singling out Kobold (they make a fine watch) as there are many other similar small companies who simply won't sell parts.

The automobile instance you site is quite valid, and there are similar laws on the books in the US and in Canada. But the scale and impact is much greater with cars than it is with luxury timepieces, so there's "more at stake" for big companies, consumer organizations, and the general public to raise a stink and get the policies changed.

Now there are some actions being taken in the EU that might prove to be helpful, but that remains to be seen.

The only group here that has the power to really affect change quickly is the watch buyer. But people don't buy based on the availability of spare parts to their local independent watchmaker, and I doubt that will change any time soon. The watch buyers are getting a taste of these restrictive practices with the move by many brands to cut out the AD, and move to the boutique model to maximise profits. The vast majotiy of watch buyers don't know, and are not told at the time of purchase, that the company they are buying from won't sell parts and forces them to bring the watch back to that company for service.

If you want to talk about a hot issue with watchmakers, forget the price of a bottle of oil and talk about spare parts acceess. The bottle of oil seems pretty minor in the context of not being able to get spare parts. ;-)

Anyway, very good discussion.

Cheers, Al


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## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

Al, that's a very enlightening post! 

It seems like watch companies are, like all other companies, finding ways to broaden their revenue stream, at the expense of independent watchmakers and ADs. One wonders about customers' response to the customer service issues though - sending a watch back to the Mother Country just for simple adjustment doesn't seem like a way to make the buyers of expensive items happy. 

Then again, maybe some buyers like the exclusivity of a watch so special it can only be serviced in Switzerland.

For my own purposes, lubing my postwar Elgins, I think I'll just follow the instructions in the Elgin Service Manual and use M56b on everything but the keyless works, which get vaseline! The watches seem to like it, but then I'm not running them all day every day for years.


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

The reason for certain companies recommending certain lubricants is to ensure that quality is properly controlled, and lubrication is removed as a source of potential issues. Companies in the Swatch Group use Moebius for obvious reasons. It's been around forever, it's high quality, and it's part of the Swatch Group. There is nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't try to attribute it to corporate monopolism or any form of arm-twisting. It's quality assurance.


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

Archer said:


> For a $100 bottle of oil that lasts a very long time, you would launch law suits? Really?


For one bottle of oil? No, but for the principle at question/risk here, most definitely, and it looks like I would have very good grounds based simply on what I've gleaned from all contributors to this thread on the current state contractual play within the commercail/retail watch 'market'. This side of the pond we have some very interesting competition laws, Acts (and in this case particularly) E.U. Directives which hove immediately into view.



Archer said:


> I service watches from many different brands, so for me to take each brand to task on what they specify is really a waste of my time. It's actually much more cost effective to buy what they suggest, and service one more watch to pay for that bottle of oil than it would be to quibble over the oil types with every brand that I service.


With respect, that is a circular argument.



Archer said:


> In addition, you may not fully understand what it's like in the industry with regards to things like access to replacement parts. If the brand says "use this oil in order to have a parts account with us" then I use that oil. Considering they require you to have equipment that costs tens of thousands of dollars to get access to parts, I am not going to jeapoardize my account, and therefore my ability to make a living, over the cost of a bottle of oil I replace every 2 years.


And there's another one. They have a contractual gun at your head.

But on that point; Been there done th...etc. Had a dive centre about 15 yrs back and when we set up we were obliged to stock 'Buddy' BCDs because that's the only thing the B.S.A.C. dive club 'officers' would recommend. So that meant opening an account with AP Valves directly who insisted that we stock an example of the whole range including a load of units that I knew for a fact would sit fading on the shelf for 18months until I'd have to sell the stuff off at less than trade 18 months down the line. £3,500 minimum initial stock order was req'd and of course that was a precondition of making their servicing course available to our service tech so that he could turn round the very occasional Auto Air unit that passed across the counter.



Archer said:


> The advice to pick your battles wisely would apply here mate.


I will confess to a propensity to that 'damn the torpedoes' gap toothed, Sagittarian trait of marching towards the source of gunfire but I also know where to aim the arrow. Hey I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but from what I've read the practices that the majors are involved in here fall afoul of both UK and E.U. law. The laws in question being the Competition Act 1998 and the Enterprise Act 2002 in the UK and if the company/ies _trade_ within the E.E.A. then it's Articles 101 and 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) that they'd better bone up on because the penalties are severe. In resume...

UK and EU competition law prohibit agreements, arrangements and concerted business practices which appreciably prevent, restrict or distort competition (or have the intention of so doing) and which affect trade in the UK or the EU respectively. It's a deliderately broad brush raft of law and encompasses such situations as cartelisation and price fixing of course and specifically abuse of market position or dominance, of which this seems to be an obvious example. Oh yes, one question; anyone know the Swatch Group's market share as this is a factor in deciding matters of market dominance and/or the criticality of their position within that market?
It also determines the size of any penalty or sanction applied and as I said the consequences of non-compliance are severe being in financial terms up to 10% of company turnover/s. Youch!

Question 2) Anyone have a top of the head figure for Swatch's group global turn over per annum? Oh and then there's the fact that those agreements you were forced to trade under are voided and you are able to seek damages. Oh yes, and so can competitors who are able to show that their business was damaged by said practices. And so of course can your customers should they prove a detriment in consequence.

It also governs such issues as agreements which limit or control production, markets, technical development or investment. Here they might push the boat of credibility further out to sea and seek a group exemption on the grounds that their activity "develops an industry centre of excellence and expertise" or some such cobblers but they'd be pissing in the wind with that one I think.
It also catches agreements which share markets or sources of supply; and those which apply dissimilar conditions to similar transactions, placing other trading parties at a disadvantage. So a decent brief would have a field day picking the bones out of this. Serious stuff and much more than just a bottle of oil.



Archer said:


> I agree a similar base oil is likely used across many industries. I have no details on what additives are used, but it seems you don't either.


No, but I'm feeling a growing urge to find out.



Archer said:


> Again it's not a really hot button issue for most watchmakers to be honest. The price fluctuation in replacement parts costs due to the rise the Swiss Franc could wipe out any savings on oils that you would gain for all this quizzing and lawsuits you are referring to.
> 
> Anyway, I think we can agree they are expensive, but really seem to disagree that it's a big issue.
> 
> Cheers, Al


Well at this point I'm reserving my position but it's very enlightening thus far (but no surprise) to find that these restrictive practices are in place.


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

emso said:


> sorry for maybe being rude but this is my point of view  ...ok archer leave them be, enough is said


That was you being rude?? Sorry chum, gotta try a bit harder than that, I spent 25 years in commercial construction from apprentice to electrical installation package manager and dealt with hairy arsed, loud-mouthed, obstreporous *******'s on a daily basis, often at elevated volumes and with little regard for blasphemy or anatomical impossibilities.



emso said:


> i would recommend them next time when they buy a new car instead taking it to the manufacturer service for exchange of oil, they should pour themselves cooking oils as its even cheaper than the motor oil.
> 
> will you do that guys??


No becuse that's a stupid idea, a poor equivalence and another appeal to circularity re the threatened invalidation of the vehicle's warranty? It is coercive at the least. A more valid analogy might be to pose the question as "...instead (of) taking it to the manufacturer service for exchange of oil, you take it to a reputable service outlet and ask them to put an equivalent oil into the engine (which is appropriately B.S./EN certified to defined standards or it wouldn't be on the market in the first place) ...and see what happens. Thus phrased your argument instantly loses what little impact it had.



emso said:


> i wonder what would happen if empire state building was built with clay instead of concrete and steel as its less expensive, which the architects proposed to be used.


Western construction methods and on-site testing of concrete pours not your forte then?



emso said:


> its simple
> 
> manufacturers propose what they _*think*_ its best for their movements, its your choice if you follow their instructions or not.


What they _think_... I wouldmuch rather they proved it or at least not penalise an individual who may hold a contrary position and yes it would be my choice, that is what a free market is supposedly established to service. Hence the skip load of law in place to protect and preserve that concept.



emso said:


> i did and i will follow them always no matter the price.


That is your choice but blind acceptence of such a glaring bit of 'rent-seeking' is not the way I go about things.

Thanks for the input anyway.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

If you don't like Mobius' prices buy Nye watch and clock oil, it is formulated for use in instruments and other fine watch type mechanisms.

But, I wouldn't use motor oil, it is just not the same stuff because it is "synthetic"...


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

mate what is your watchmaking experience?

have you ever tried putting d-5 instead 9010 on some points?
did you try to put d-5 instead 9415 on pallet fork jewel??

and lastly have you ever put d-5 on the place where quartz oil was supposed to be?


your watch would be back for repair within a year or maybe two.

with the prices i use for my repairs i have to be confident that the watch wont be returning within 3-4 years for complete overhaul.

its simple as i said if you dont like them dont use them.

its not blind acceptance it is problem of competition, they don't have competition in the field

as i can see you're a grand master in every field from construction to watchmaking so you may develop some oils, i will gladly use them and test them on my watches (my own watches should i say  )

this is the last i will say on this matter


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

The Guvnah said:


> For one bottle of oil? No, but for the principle at question/risk here, most definitely, and it looks like I would have very good grounds based simply on what I've gleaned from all contributors to this thread on the current state contractual play within the commercail/retail watch 'market'. This side of the pond we have some very interesting competition laws, Acts (and in this case particularly) E.U. Directives which hove immediately into view.


Laws are great - we have them too. They are really great if they are enforced. But many times, like in these instances, they are not enforced. It's great to be principled and fight the good fight, but this is the sort of thing you do when you decide you no longer want to be a watchmaker. 

There are two watchmaking organizations in the US - one seems not to care about spare parts because the focus is on vintage watches, and the other gets a good chunk of funding from the same companies that restrict the parts. In one action taken against one brand in particular over the right to buy spare parts, the second one I speak of stayed neutral, stating that they felt cooperation with the industry was the best route. So far that has not gone as well as we all would like.

We actually agree on more than you think we do I suspect. A class action lawsuit has been launched in the US and even "won" so to speak, with zero impact in terms of opening up the flow of spare parts. It's not an easy thing to get done, and it cost the parties in question a ton of money. The only people who made out okay were the lawyers.

There's a lot of money at stake for these brands (Google is your friend if you want to find out) and they are not giving this up easily. If I could make a phone call and get things changed, I would. Unfortunately the resources it takes to fight this fight I don't have. If you do, then by all means we would be happy for you to step up to the plate. You are in an ideal position as a consumer - you bought the watch and you should have the right to have it serviced where you please - I agree completely. Governments, lawmakers, and courts are far more likely to side with the, dare I say, many hundreds of thousands of consumers being ripped off (even if they are "wealthy" consumers complaining about luxury goods repair) than they are with a few thousand watchmakers who are trying to eek out a living.



The Guvnah said:


> With respect, that is a circular argument.


Actually it wasn't an argument at all, but a statement of fact. Taking every company to task to save what amounts to a drop (of oil?) in the bucket with regards to my shop expenses is simply a waste of my time. They won't bend one bit, and I won't make any money while I'm arguing with them as I only make money when I'm at my bench, fixing watches.....



The Guvnah said:


> They have a contractual gun at your head.


It seems you might be starting to understand the situation. We are getting somewhere! 



The Guvnah said:


> But on that point; Been there done th...etc. Had a dive centre about 15 yrs back and when we set up we were obliged to stock 'Buddy' BCDs because that's the only thing the B.S.A.C. dive club 'officers' would recommend. So that meant opening an account with AP Valves directly who insisted that we stock an example of the whole range including a load of units that I knew for a fact would sit fading on the shelf for 18months until I'd have to sell the stuff off at less than trade 18 months down the line. £3,500 minimum initial stock order was req'd and of course that was a precondition of making their servicing course available to our service tech so that he could turn round the very occasional Auto Air unit that passed across the counter.


So you didn't sue them then?



The Guvnah said:


> I will confess to a propensity to that 'damn the torpedoes' gap toothed, Sagittarian trait of marching towards the source of gunfire but I also know where to aim the arrow. Hey I don't have a dog in this particular fight, but from what I've read the practices that the majors are involved in here fall afoul of both UK and E.U. law. The laws in question being the Competition Act 1998 and the Enterprise Act 2002 in the UK and if the company/ies _trade_ within the E.E.A. then it's Articles 101 and 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU) that they'd better bone up on because the penalties are severe. In resume...
> 
> -snip-


You can quote all the laws you want, but someone with the financial resources needed to make a challenge has to step up. You actually do have a dog in this fight is you own a watch from any brand that forces you to send it back to them for servicing.

As I said above, we agree on more than you might think. We disagree it seems on how easy it is to rectify the situation. As I stated in another post there are some actions in the EU that might help this situation down the road, but the wheels of justice turn slowly (they probably aren't using the right oil).

Cheers, Al


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

Archer said:


> When it comes down to making a living or not, there's not a lot of choice but to accept what they offer (at least from those who offer anything).


Al - that's a great and enlightening post. Thanks for your detailed explanation of issues and considerations. I appreciate your patience and your very thorough input.


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

emso said:


> mate what is your watchmaking experience?


None, yet, but that condition is changing rapidly, the point however is irrelevant for the purposes of determining whether the contractual terms and practices you are compelled to accept and trade under are equitable, unfair or outright illegal. Those same terms and practices (active or latent) are found in every field of commerce and have given an example thereof from personal experience. My watchmaking/repair experience may be minimal as I currently have no intention or desire to step down that path but my experience at detecting potential bull---- before it hits the floor is extensive.



emso said:


> ...with the prices i use for my repairs i have to be confident that the watch wont be returning within 3-4 years for complete overhaul.
> ...its not blind acceptance it is problem of competition, they don't have competition in the field


So are the competitor brands really that inferior in comparison to the 'annointed' ones? What are the real life performance differences or is the horologist's caution based solely on the requirement not to jeapordise his/her branded parts accounts? Where are the manufacturer's datasheets, do they in fact publish them or otherwise make them available to the trade?



emso said:


> its not blind acceptance it is problem of competition, they don't have competition in the field


:roll: And why is that? Getting a bit bored with spotting the circularities now and I hate to repeat myself but, that's what inevitably happens when anti comptetitive practices are suffered and indulged, not by the judiciary (who are generally nought more than the de facto, rent-seeking, licenced 'trading arm' of a nation's legal executive) but by those directly affected.



emso said:


> as i can see you're a grand master in every field from construction to watchmaking...


Oh fer crying out loud!.......... ....................... ..............

Sarcasm was never any form of wit and I've told you a million times, don't exaggerate.



emso said:


> ...so you may develop some oils, i will gladly use them and test them on my watches (my own watches should i say  )


 Not within my compass of talents I'm afraid so can't immediately help but off the top of my head; subject to correction I note that modern oils degrade by thinning in such a way that they effectively leave no protection at all against metal to metal contact whereas pre-war veg/animal based oils would thicken up and start to retard the movement giving fair warning that all was not well within and even if ignored to the point of stoppage it was found that they left a protective residue which prevented or at least mitigated against a serious breakage. Given that movements can run on for considerable periods after all effective lubricative qualities have dissapeared would it be that hard to blend or tailor an oil's characteristic such as to reproduce that characteristic?



emso said:


> this is the last i will say on this matter


Been a pleasure, thanks for coming.

The Guvnah


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## The Guvnah (Nov 9, 2011)

Archer said:


> Laws are great - we have them too. They are really great if they are enforced. But many times, like in these instances, they are not enforced.


At its final reductio you either use 'em or lose 'em. The precedents that prove this to be so are countless.



Archer said:


> It's great to be principled and fight the good fight,...


Disagree strongly. It's not "great" at all, it's a humungous p.i.t.a. and can be an insatiable time vampire! But some things need to be defended and the fair application of just law is one of them surely. I should not have to concern myself with the inadequacies of our judiciary and executive when there are more pleasurable and productive things that I should be devoting that disproportionate chunk of my lifespan and attention to. When we place/elect people to uphold and apply our law we charge them with a responsibility to do so and moreover pay them extremely well to do so. We now find that they have largely subcontracted 90% of their workload out, distributed their responsibilities to underlings, vouchsafed their liabilities with the judiciary and legal professions and 'recycled' the cost of their failures back onto the people who placed them there. First of all that sort of rank venality of attitude let alone in conduct makes my p1$$ boil, it is both a personal affront, genuinely offends my sense of justice and as a side dish kicks lumps out of constitutional settlements. The challenge to both sides here is as much attitudinal as it is legal. Fear of failure was never an excuse for inaction though.



Archer said:


> ...but this is the sort of thing you do when you decide you no longer want to be a watchmaker.


Do you mean at retirement, when all vigour is gone? The tall poppies cropped? Have to disagree again. By that time it's often way too late. Who was it who observed that the time to fight for one's rights is whilst one is still in posession of them? To which I would humbly add my own maxim when faced with the risks involved in putting one's head above the parapet; what father is he who would bequeath to the son a sword he dared not wield himself?



Archer said:


> There are two watchmaking organizations in the US - one seems not to care about spare parts because the focus is on vintage watches, and the other gets a good chunk of funding from the same companies that restrict the parts. In one action taken against one brand in particular over the right to buy spare parts, the second one I speak of stayed neutral, stating that they felt cooperation with the industry was the best route. So far that has not gone as well as we all would like.


From my short acquaintance with the subject this is what I understand to be the case, any particularly useful links?



Archer said:


> We actually agree on more than you think we do I suspect.


I'm quite sure we do.



Archer said:


> A class action lawsuit has been launched in the US and even "won" so to speak, with zero impact in terms of opening up the flow of spare parts. It's not an easy thing to get done,


Where has it stalled?



Archer said:


> ...and it cost the parties in question a ton of money. The only people who made out okay were the lawyers.


It was ever thus. This is one of many repeated motifs that reinforce my perception that here for instance the UK Court Service is just the commercial trading wing of the Ministry of Justice.



Archer said:


> Unfortunately the resources it takes to fight this fight I don't have. If you do, then by all means we would be happy for you to step up to the plate. ...Governments, lawmakers, and courts are far more likely to side with the, dare I say, many hundreds of thousands of consumers being ripped off (even if they are "wealthy" consumers complaining about luxury goods repair) than they are with a few thousand watchmakers who are trying to eek out a living.


That's a fair counterpoint but the purchasers of regularly serviced high end watches will rarely quibble over $30-40 and the general public are not aware of the issue so cannot voice opinion that isn't invited. Enter the dealers and repair fraternity stage left to trumpets and salutations, they/you are the only party to have an iron in both fires and the only ones with the motivation (or not?) to engage that vital public support. And this is a public space after all.



Archer said:


> Actually it wasn't an argument at all, but a statement of fact.


The word 'argument' can be used discursively, mathematically or logically, for the sake of clarity I employed it in its logical context to highlight the logical fallacy used to justify your position.



Archer said:


> It seems you might be starting to understand the situation. We are getting somewhere!


And erroneously patronising someone ranks barely above sarcasm. ;-) The 'loaded gun' we refer to is no revelation Archer, if you care to read post 21 you'll see I'm alluding to it heavily by requiring reps to s*1* or get off the pot.



Archer said:


> So you didn't sue them then?


Ah the days when I was a fresh faced, newly qualified O.W.S.I. hungry for certs and completely ignorant of corporate law and the machinations thereof. It was a done deal, through ignorance I was then maneouvered into a legal corner in preparation for having the whole business levered away by a thoroughly unscrupulous 'partner' and his twice convicted legal advisor. Never again will I allow that to happen and the upshot is that in matters legal I now prefer to 'keep the weapon cocked'.



Archer said:


> You can quote all the laws you want, but someone with the financial resources needed to make a challenge has to step up.


That's a given but there is still a role for the individual acting in concert.



Archer said:


> You actually do have a dog in this fight is you own a watch from any brand that forces you to send it back to them for servicing.


Your are correct of course, and soon probably a whole pack of 'em.



Archer said:


> As I said above, we agree on more than you might think. We disagree it seems on how easy it is to rectify the situation.


Correct again. Well sort of.



Archer said:


> As I stated in another post there are some actions in the EU that might help this situation down the road, but the wheels of justice turn slowly (they probably aren't using the right oil).
> 
> Cheers, Al


Now that is funny. :-d and it's true, "the wheels of justice do grind exceeding slow". Oh boy do I know that!

t.t.f.n.

Guv


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

The Guvnah said:


> None, yet, but that condition is changing rapidly, the point however is irrelevant for the purposes of determining whether the contractual terms and practices you are compelled to accept and trade under are equitable, unfair or outright illegal. Those same terms and practices (active or latent) are found in every field of commerce and have given an example thereof from personal experience. My watchmaking/repair experience may be minimal as I currently have no intention or desire to step down that path but my experience at detecting potential bull---- before it hits the floor is extensive.


well that is what i wanted to know.
if you mistakenly did the examples i gave you with d-5, than you would know what we are all talking about.
you can't play with customers watches like that,especially if they pay you 400-500 euros for a complete overhaul of the watch.
you cant make that mistake and have a unsatisfied customer which has to bring the watch for another repair within a year or two.

well at least if you're making a living out of it.

over and out


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

Morning Monique19.

There is at present something wrong with that link you posted. It doesn't show the image and if it is a link, it doesn't work as one.

regards


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

The Guvnah said:


> Do you mean at retirement, when all vigour is gone? The tall poppies cropped? Have to disagree again. By that time it's often way too late. Who was it who observed that the time to fight for one's rights is whilst one is still in posession of them? To which I would humbly add my own maxim when faced with the risks involved in putting one's head above the parapet; what father is he who would bequeath to the son a sword he dared not wield himself?
> 
> Guv


This is the only one I have time for, or really need to reply to. The reason I say this is because if you bite the hand that feeds you by suing them, what do you think they, and every other company out there is going to do to you when you apply to get parts from them?

If you don't get this, then you really do not understand the situation.

Sorry, I don't have time to debate this any more - Google is your friend, and if you need a start look up Fleury v Cartier. You will see that even when you win, the watchmaker still loses mate. There are many ways to restrict trade, and some of them are quite legal, as this case will show you.

Cheers, Al


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## fliegher (Feb 24, 2012)

While it is 60 years out of date I was browsing the US Army watch repair and service manual which only ever lists one generic watch oil to use on a cleaned and dry movement. 
If watches went for five years between servicing during WW-II I would imagine that they can go quite longer now on synthetics. Are modern watches also able to survive on one type of generic watch oil? If so which synthetic watch oil would be best if I just wanted to practice oiling jewels and working with small parts on a few cheap new Chinese movements? From what I understand Chinese movements ship dry so they are perfect for practice. 
For example I would much rather buy one $30 vial of Moebius 9100 to use as a starter for a hobby but not $150-200 for a full set of differentiated lubes/fix-a-drop and just wash in naphtha and repeat if the regulation slows early. What is the real downside to going with just one good synthetic lube, has anyone tried and been sorry, I cant imagine a radical increase in wear or stickiness especially compared to the single natural oil in the 40's? 
This is obviously not ideal or professional but I suspect it is also not the end of the world and according to a retired pro I once spoke to, considerably better than the dipping in solvent without disassembly that some discount jewellery shops apparently do to movements sent in for service.


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## James Roettger (Feb 1, 2009)

I am surprised that steel shafts against ruby bearings could behave in ways that require so many lubricants. I can see how pallet stones might need one oil but from my amateur perspective it would seem that most trains of a given size/weight range would require about the same oil. They are all the same materials(?) in the same situations by and large. I learned what I know from books and it seems most of those old timer authors used only several oils. But I can also see how when working with a watches of high value, like $5000 or greater that following the manufacturers instructions would be the way to go. I'll duck and cover while the replies come.


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## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

I am curious about the hypothesis being put forward here - that a watch lubricated with a single lubricant, rather than half a dozen likely very similar lubricants, is substantially more likely to fail. 

As a Scientist (it says so right on my business cards), I am disinclined to believe such an hypothesis without supporting data, and a compelling physical explanation, and I'm not seeing either of those here.


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

it is not just shaft and jewels important
the problem is in the speed in which the parts move
for example
moebious d-5 is used in slow moving parts,the 9010 is used in parts which have greater speed due to its specifications,molykote is used in parts where the friction is great (parts which match between with a lot of pressure) etc etc.

i would put it in simpler way to understand as a car:
you put one type of oil in the engine,another in the transmission and third type of grease wherever is needed and other types of fluids oils and grease.

this time i would quote a part of Tissot's "watch secret's document" :

"For instance, do you know , that the energy supplied to an automatic watch , by
the movements of the wrist owner, allows the balance wheel to perform 432000
rotations per day ? It is like if this balance wheel had made 20 kms at the same
speed of the wheel of a locomotive running at 90 km/h.
While a car makes 250 000 kms in 10 years time, its wheels make 120 millions
revolutions. The balance wheel of a mechanical watch makes as much but in 9
months only."


i hope it resolves the doubt


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## fliegher (Feb 24, 2012)

I think part of the problem in the thread is there are amateurs consulting pros with business reputations on the line who work on Rolex and other expensive movements and would be fools to even consider cheap non Swatch recommended lubes on $10k watches. For the real 5-20 watches serviced in a lifetime amateurs though it would probably be worthwhile as a group to find good synthetic substitutes from aerospace and mechanical sources to service $20-$100 movements and then report on their performance after a few years. For example D-5 will have a synthetic grease of similar viscosity available for much less, and while it may not perform as well will still probably give 5-10 years of good service, the same for using 9010 or a similar high purity breakdown resistant synthetic oil. 

This is from a pro that I sometimes consult on this topic:
All I can say is buy the best you can afford. I personally would not use anything other than the recommended but then I have a business to run and cannot afford comebacks. I practiced on many many watches before I felt confidant enough to charge for my work. If you were outfitting your shop to Rolex standards you would easily pay 60,000 dollars and probably still need a lot more tools and parts.

and 

As for the cleaning, I used naptha when I first began repairing watches, 
and it does work very well. If you are repairing more than several watches, 
I would recommend the more expensive cleaning solutions, which work better, 
but which normally come in a gallon size. 
If money is a consideration, the two oils that one would necessarily
need are Mobius 9010 and Mobius D5.
For the pallet stones, you would use Mobius 941. 
For greasing the mainspring, use Kluber P125.


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## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

fliegher said:


> I think part of the problem in the thread is there are amateurs consulting pros with business reputations on the line who work on Rolex and other expensive movements and would be fools to even consider cheap non Swatch recommended lubes on $10k watches. For the real 5-20 watches serviced in a lifetime amateurs though it would probably be worthwhile as a group to find good synthetic substitutes from aerospace and mechanical sources to service $20-$100 movements and then report on their performance after a few years.


Too many confounding variables - absence of a control, unknown and inconsistent service history of the movements, small 'N', different watchmaking proficiency among amateurs which also changes over time - for example, two years ago, I couldn't take down and reassemble a 12s pocketwatch, but last week I did a 21/0s ladies watch. :-d

The proper experiment would require, among other things:

Starting with new movements to avoid the service history variable.
A large number for sufficient statistical power.
Trained, experienced watchmakers to eliminate the proficiency variable.
You'd have to blind it, somehow - perhaps one watchmaker would service the movement and another would regulate it?

You see how complex it gets when you try to get valid answers to even relatively simple questions? ;-)


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

fliegher said:


> While it is 60 years out of date I was browsing the US Army watch repair and service manual which only ever lists one generic watch oil to use on a cleaned and dry movement.
> If watches went for five years between servicing during WW-II I would imagine that they can go quite longer now on synthetics.


According to page 43, section h "Oiling Interval", "For best performance, a timepiece must be cleaned, oiled and regulated once each year". Once a year, not once every 5 years.

I am not sure why they recommend using single oil (in fact, there is no explicit recommendation). All other contemporary sources (de Carle, Fried, etc) recommended using at least 2: watch oil and clock oil. Some sources mentioned grease for the winding mechanism. Still, service interval was 1-2 years. Now it is more like 5. Probably because of better lubricants, and better constructed cases that protect movement from moisture/dust.

Also, it should be noted that Moebius Synt-a-Lube and some other synthetic oils go back 50 years. These haven't been just developed.


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## SgtClaymore (Feb 2, 2012)

vbomega said:


> Really? KT-22 microlubricant is used as a stem grease and in the setting/winding mechanisms.


Um I know I use it to lubricate mine!


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

emso said:


> it is not just shaft and jewels important
> the problem is in the speed in which the parts move
> for example
> moebious d-5 is used in slow moving parts,the 9010 is used in parts which have greater speed due to its specifications,molykote is used in parts where the friction is great (parts which match between with a lot of pressure) etc etc.
> ...


Sorry old chap - I had bowed out of this discussion, but I just can't let this over simplistic analogy stand unchallenged. You can't draw such analogies without ignoring a variety of important facts. These range from the enormous differences in bearing rubbing speed between watches and car and locomotive wheel bearings and the enormously different levels of pressure on these bearings. My watch experience is negligible, but I DO fully understand the difference between the rubbing speed on a balance pivot and that on a car wheel bearing or one on a locomotive. The first is tiny, and the second and third are much greater. So are the forces loaded on the bearings. Off the top of the head, balance pivots, the fastest moving bearings in a wrist watch look to be about 0.5mm in diameter. This gives them a circumference in the ball park of 1.6mm for each full rotation. Of course they doesn't rotate 360 degrees, they oscillate typically at 6 times a second about 300 degrees, so each swing is 5/6 of 1.6mm at max. This works out around 1.4mm per swing or 8.4mm per second. What is more, the load on the balance pivots is tiny - absolutely feeble amounts of force are involved. Contrast this with a car wheel bearing or worse a locomotive wheel bearing. I'm not going to work out more ball park estimates, but the difference is VAST - they are not in the same universe. Car crankshaft bearings are very heavily loaded both from the point of view of pressure and rubbing speed. Again the forces are a quantum leap greater and they have very heavy demands in terms of lubricants resisting the crushing pressures and high speed rotation. A small petrol engine crankshaft will have rubbing speeds around 7500 to 15000 mm per second - between about 900 and 1800 times as great as the balance pivot.

The lubricant needs of the average wrist watch are so much less demanding as to render these discussions ridiculous where such comparisons are being made between engines or loco wheels and watches are concerned. I am not saying the watch doesn't need lubrication or work better with lubrication - of course they do, but let's not pretend the parts are having a fierce time in there while they are ticking away because they don't, which is why I have an Omega watch that has been serviced maybe four times in 24/7 use for 63 years which is untouched as far as spare parts are concerned and is keeping time to about a second a day.

Fliegher's point about the US Army watch manual recommendations are pertinent. When my Grandpa's Omega Bumper was made, it would have been oiled like that. It has had four services at best in its lifetime. Why didn't it explode decades ago and why is it keeping such remarkably good time? This ain't a watch that lived in a drawer. It spent 63 years on the wrist, day in and day out.


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

i agree that it is bad example but its all i could use to explain to non watchmaker persons to understand.
also if your watch was not serviced for years it is a big problem, because when you next open it for service you will have to exchange a lot of parts due to wearing.
you could use archer's blogspot to see what i'm talking about it has a very good example there with pictures.

i dont say the watch wont work, it will work but at what specifications near factory or very different from them.

for example for breitling, did you know that when you do complete overhaul by breitling standards you need to exchange the barrel with complete mainspring, 2-3 of the other wheels on it no matter how much they're worn?
if you want to have the possibility to repair their watches you must work by their rules, have their proposed equipment, buy special tools from them,go to their training centers and learn how to repair their watches their way?

the oils as archer said are the smallest problem.

and if i charge 500 -700 euros for a complete overhaul i cant use other oils than manufacture recommendations, as i'm sure if i don't have other mistakes the watch wont have problems because of the oil in the next 4-5 years.


br


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

I think the most important properties of the watch oil are to maintain its characteristics over longer periods of time, and not migrate off of the lubrication points to other parts. I don't think these requirements are the same for motor oil.


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## tony1951 (Jan 11, 2012)

emso said:


> i agree that it is bad example but its all i could use to explain to non watchmaker persons to understand.
> also if your watch was not serviced for years it is a big problem, because when you next open it for service you will have to exchange a lot of parts due to wearing.
> you could use archer's blogspot to see what i'm talking about it has a very good example there with pictures.
> 
> ...


I fully grasp the pressures on a watch repair business trying to satisfy the predatory demands of manufacturers intent on ripping off all and sundry. I realise you must stay aboard their programme.

As for my old omega needing parts, well it certainly won't be within omega's manufacturing specifications of 1945 or 1946, but I can guarantee you that it keeps time better than any other mechanical watch I have ever owned. It is also entirely original and it really has worked 24/7 for 63 years. I wouldn't allow anyone to replace anything inside it, although I do intend to have it stripped, cleaned and lubricated in the near future. It needs a new hand, a new crown and maybe a crystal, but the internals of the machine are staying as they are.


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## ringoism (Mar 26, 2013)

*Re: Newbie lubrication Q (Jeep lube, BMW's, my time at Swatch/Hamilton, Omegas in India, etc, etc.*

This horse seems to have been driven far and wide till near dead... but I'll beat it some more with my two philosophical cents where others might've missed, if I may, as my first-ever forum post...(!)

The automotive lubricants analogy is interesting but not really a great one if you're arguing for Moebius; Vintage Jeep experts say there's no reason you shouldn't run 50W motor oil instead of the recommended 80W-90 gear lube in the trans if you want smoother shifts; manufacturers themselves (Ford, for one) in efforts to improve fuel economy switched to much thinner (and incidentally better-smelling) ATF (automatic trans fluid) for their manual gearboxes at one point a few decades back, something enthusiast owners of multiple marques have sometimes suggested. A lot of power-steering pumps have also used ATF instead of Power Steering Fluid, despite some differences in the conditions / hardware involved. Further back, old-timers discussed Pennsylvania-based crude vs. Texas oils and their diverse properties (the former arguably had better lubricating properties, but also sludged up a lot more, in time causing oil starvation via restricted oil passages - so in reality it all worked out about the same); Currently, every few years there's a new standard (SG, SH, etc) for U.S.-market motor oils, denoting apparently improved performance for current applications - but the fact is that (last I checked) the Guiness world-record setting car for high mileage did not run on modern grades or synthetic oils (nor was its manufacturer one that attracts much snob-appeal). Anyway, that distinction must in reality belong to some poor undocumented chap in the third-world whose odometer's been broken the past 15 years, his taxi held together with a lot of native ingenuity.

The thread opened with an enquiry from what seemed to be a hobbyist with two mentioned timepieces (one requiring servicing), and for the sake of others facing a similar situation, it probably would've been good for the professionals to keep that better in mind, or I daresay, maybe even to remain silent. Otherwise, it sounds a bit like the factory-authorized and equipped Rolls-Royce mechanic offering advice to the guy servicing his Ford pickup in the driveway next door - granted, the basic technology's not actually all that different, but expectations / standards / snob factors certainly will be, not to mention related economics. Truly, a premium watch that runs a minute out per day, which slows down on that Everest expedition or 50m underwater, or which has to be serviced in less than five years with 24/7 use is a big deal for the pros, and it should be, considering the low cost of specified oils vs. what's at stake (never mind that fact that 99.9% of these watches will seldom experience conditions more demanding than that of a golf course - and that most Land Rovers never venture off the pavement). For the hobbyist with a few old pieces who wears his vintage watch for an occasional nice dinner in climate-controlled restaurant / car / life and who doesn't mind taking a couple hours every couple years (if necessary), to service his simple winding movement, it's probably not going to make any practical difference whether his oil viscosity (or whatever else) is a bit off the mark.

The scientists wanted data&#8230; well, no precise numbers, but I've lived in India for some years now, where there have been I guess hundreds of thousands of old Omegas (and comparable fine Swiss) floating around for decades, probably almost all of them oiled with a single oil (as seems the custom here) of seldom-known origin or precise grade, with less critical parts (setting/winding) often just left dry. I kinda doubt the 8000/4 Moebius I bought here at $2 /2mL here is genuine - unless Swatch is really pricing it to the market (which would open up that whole line of discussion again); and anyway, many watch repairmen here won't use it because $2 is double what they typically pay for other mysterious (but easier to pronounce) makes of watch oil. Watch techs give you a one-year warranty on their servicing here, and most folks apparently consider that enough. Indians traditionally owned ONE watch that they'd paid dearly for, so a typical piece sees constant 24/7 use over decades in generally harsh, sweaty, non-climate-controlled conditions (dust storms and 130degree heat in May/June, wet/humid monsoon months, and cold winter nights in the plains - not to mention the corrosive coastal areas) and most pieces, after all that misuse/abuse, still seem good enough to be exported, as a profitable industry recently, to high-paying customers in the EU&#8230;

In my case, I'm a hobbyist / occasional seller with a few hundred lesser-grade Swiss / Japanese pieces that I can't possibly find time to service every couple years when organic / spurious oils might gum up&#8230; and I'm realizing (a little late) that I should've researched / invested in some good synthetic oils (whether Moebius or less pricey Nye/ Novostar) years ago. What? An extra dollar per piece to double or triple their shelf life? A bargain, even by Indian standards (it would cost me a comparative fortune - $3 each - to get them re-serviced by a "pro" here!). So I think it pretty clearly depends on your situation / requirements. If my grandpa's Hamilton was still the only vintage watch I owned, I'd probably give sewing machine oil a try&#8230; or run the mating surfaces over some leftover flounder bones&#8230;

That said, 95% of today's premium watch market (like the premium car market) is kind of a vain joke. Old Omegas were good, reliable, finely-crafted, and usually not very fancy watches. And Mercedes sedans were traditionally the preferred good, reliable, well-made, and not very fancy taxi for rural Africa. Today you can easily pay $5000 for watches that use $300 ETA movements. Hmmm... And Ford/Jaguar have used the same engines/drivetrains in some pretty diversely-priced models. I'd rather have the Jag, of course, but I might also be brain-damaged&#8230;

I once owned what had been a $50,000 BMW 7-series (E32)&#8230; I'd occasionally step out of it and get behind the wheel of my grandfather's Chevy Caprice Classic of the same vintage (late 80's)&#8230; which was as good or better in a number of respects (smoothness, power, economy, comfort, reliability, longevity - and if it'd had the Police Package, it'd been nearly as good in handling/braking, too) at around ¼ the price with fortunately about nine less on-board computers&#8230; and I'd regret having bought that dubious piece of "German engineering" (which admittedly had nice heavy doors with their pretty bits of rainforest attached) - a car for which, incidentally, the company charged ludicrous rates for even routine servicing and would, unlike the Chevy, not sell anyone a workshop manual&#8230; and for which they carefully designed components like suspension bushings and water pumps to wear out after 30 or 60,000 miles (sounds like Brietling's aforementioned mandatory gear replacements)&#8230; so that anyone doing service according to the factory recommended intervals / procedures would end up spending as much on that over the life of the car as they'd paid for the vehicle itself (pity the fool who bought an old one needing a little overdue "updating" and repair). I'd be willing to bet that a notable percentage of those wearing high-end timepieces today wouldn't know offhand (no pun intended) how to reset (or even read) their chronograph&#8230; I'm personally getting a little bored of seeing multiple subdials on just about every "new" premium watch that comes out&#8230; and of seeing scores of people who have no concept of the finer points of driving sitting behind the wheel of an "Ultimate Driving Machine". Come to think of it, apart from the scuba-divers, sailors, expeditionary-types, and genuine _autobahn-_stormers, these customers seem to all be of the same variety&#8230;

A friend here in India has his dad's 15-20 year old Seiko automatic that's never been serviced and still keeps perfect time (nobody's said anything about what must be very unsexy Japanese-specified oils - though that land's copious appetite for fish has me suspicious&#8230. Indeed, Nye's original "Blackfish-head oil" was highly acclaimed and testified to be suitable for the harshest environments back in the days before the Swiss became the most revered and dominant force in watchmaking&#8230;

One final thing: When I worked at a Hamilton/Swatch showroom in the 80's, Swatch sold only horrid, $29 gaudy plastic throwaway watches, with accessory rubber guards (at extra cost) to protect the extremely low-grade plastic crystals. Hamilton only offered one mechanical watch by then, at around $325, and I never sold even one, vs. hundreds of the plastic fantastic. Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of the world population realized way back that any old quartz watch was going to keep just as good of time (or better) than a higher-quality mechanical watch of many times the price; that in the course of working their asses off to buy more and more stuff, they didn't have much spare time, in reality, to open watch backs and gaze upon the beauty of finely-devised mechanical movements (which would compromise the seal anyway); And besides, they'd get bored wearing the same watch (especially if fashions changed) year after year; Thus everything but the mainly status-driven higher-end market disappeared, and what remains has been by necessity consolidated, presumably with the mother company devising all sorts of clever ways of maintaining positive cash flows. It is a curious course of business: From my limited perspective: It seems that Swatch, soul-less and capitalizing on the shallow and temporal nature of the plastic quartz revolution and majority consumers who fueled it, finally recognized its own disgusting nature and, repenting / finding redemption, became the unlikely preserver of the mechanical watch industry. Is there hope for mankind after all? Well, I suppose that nowadays, this particular Evil Empire does what it needs to do. The premium / exotic automotive brands are now mostly owned by the likes of Ford, Fiat, and VW, and are contributing practically nothing to corporate earnings. The few independents (BMW, Porsche, I think) that survive either have large propaganda departments or charge you $500 for a brake rotor, or both&#8230; so apart from lubricants, perhaps it's not such a bad analogy after all...

Sadly, what used to be the huge watch bazaar in New Delhi is now filled with $1 Chinese timepieces and assemblers of cheap fakes&#8230; all of the old-school watchmakers are gone, and where repairers remain, they are sad figures relegated primarily to repairing broken straps and replacing batteries, which they buy (from China) at 2cents and sell at a dollar&#8230; I suppose one can't possess much self-respect under such conditions&#8230; But this is the world we live in. And I suppose we've created it ourselves.

If you've read this far, you've been gracious, so thanks!

-Eric


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

*Re: Newbie lubrication Q (Jeep lube, BMW's, my time at Swatch/Hamilton, Omegas in India, etc, etc.*

Nothing like reviving a dead horse (with epinephrine) to beat it some more! Kris - this is your most significant reincarnation to date! And on the sub continent no less. I thought your previous iterations were good but we all know that Tom Baker was the best Doctor Who. Outstanding.


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## WTCNerd (Aug 27, 2011)

Just buy a bottle of Teflon lubricant and use it for everything.


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## xzqt (Jan 26, 2013)

WTCNerd said:


> Just buy a bottle of Teflon lubricant and use it for everything.


I know Teflon lub works on crown thread. Does it works on mechanical movement ? Anyway tried ?


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

xzqt said:


> I know Teflon lub works on crown thread. Does it works on mechanical movement ? Anyway tried ?


It's the watchmakers' dirty secret. Everyone uses it. One size fits all. The Moebius bottles are actually filled with olive oil and are just for show.


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

i dont know why the fuss about oiling, you just take the oil and oil the god damn thing. (sorry if against the rules)

br
emso


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

*Re: Newbie lubrication Q (Jeep lube, BMW's, my time at Swatch/Hamilton, Omegas in India, etc, etc.*



ringoism said:


> Indeed, Nye's original "Blackfish-head oil" was highly acclaimed and testified to be suitable for the harshest environments back in the days before the Swiss became the most revered and dominant force in watchmaking&#8230;


That was a good read Eric, nice one.

As regards Nyes, Blackfish Head oil.
In the UK, for two hundred years or more, the oil extracted from the jaw of a porpoise was considered
the finest oil for use in watch work.

A few weeks ago whilst walking my dog on the beach I came across a dead porpoise,
imagine my disappointment when I discovered a watchmaker had beaten me to it and made off with
the animals head.


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## wildpack (Jul 3, 2011)

vbomega said:


> A starter kit for a hobbyist who mainly services vintage low beat movements would be:
> 1. Cheap option: Novostar Type B, Novostar Type R, KT-22 grease. Optional: Novostar Barrel Grease, Novostar Winding Grease.
> 2. Expensive option: moebius 9010, moebius hp1300 (instead of D-5), KT-22. optional: moebius 941 ( up to 21600 bph) or 9415 for 28800, but you would also want /need epilame.


In your cheap option, for the pallets, I'm guessing that instead of moebius 941 you're going with nothing or maybe Novostar Type B?

In the expensive option, what are you suggesting for barrel grease and mainspring to replace the Novostar Barrel Grease and Novostar Winding Grease in the cheap option? If you're going to say Moebius 8217 and 8141, should I be tempted to use Novostar or that just creating a silly expensive/cheap (better/good) combination?

I'm getting ready to order oils for the first time.

edit: The first question may be moot - I (or Mr. Google) can't find anybody online that is selling Novostar Type R. :roll:


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## rolex4130 (Dec 9, 2012)

In my life of watchmaking I have always used Moebius. But it is a personal preference when it comes down to it.9010,8200,Microgliss,kt22,and 9415 are all I use. I hope this info will help you


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

rolex4130 said:


> In my life of watchmaking I have always used Moebius. But it is a personal preference when it comes down to it.9010,8200,Microgliss,kt22,and 9415 are all I use. I hope this info will help you


Your selection limits the size and types of movements that could be serviced within industry standard recomendations. You may wish to review the chart below.

p i t h y


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