# Anyone have reference to any original 1960's Junghans Max Bill watches?



## lambstew (Nov 13, 2006)

I'd love to see pictures of the original 1960's Max Bill design Junghans watches but have been unable to locate any articles or pictures on the internet pertaining to these. All there seems to be is information on the new editions.

Let know if anyone has this information or can direct me to a good source.

Thanks,

Konrad


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

The best source is ebay.de, a lot of vintage Max Bill over there.










I added two pics of Max Bill kitchen clocks.


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## lambstew (Nov 13, 2006)

stuffler said:


> The best source is ebay.de, a lot of vintage Max Bill over there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Mike,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have checked over there but I'm looking for more precise information, like an article or something that shows both old and new like you just posted with your kitchen clocks. Many of the watches from that era had "Meister" on the dial and used the caliber 84 movement with swan neck fine regulation. Just wondering if the original Max Bill's had Junghans Meister on the dial or just Junghans?

The reason I'm asking is, that I have what I believe to be an original Max Bill which has exactly same dial as this pictured re-edition, but just Junghans on the dial. The dial appears old and of the era but it could also be a re-paint, so I'm looking for an original to compare.

Thanks,

Konrad


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## Abbazz (May 12, 2009)

Hi Konrad, I have just seen your thread. Here are a few pictures of my Junghans Trilastic from the early 1960s. I believe this is one of the first watches designed by Max Bill for Junghans:























































Cheers!

Abbazz


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## const (Aug 19, 2009)

lambstew said:


> I'd love to see pictures of the original 1960's Max Bill design Junghans watches but have been unable to locate any articles or pictures on the internet pertaining to these. All there seems to be is information on the new editions.
> 
> Let know if anyone has this information or can direct me to a good source.
> 
> ...


here is a picture of one of the originals


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi const,

that's an original out of the actual today's collection (027/49101.44; "Chronoscope Max Bill").
The ts wanted to see examples from the sixties,


Volker ;-)


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

I don't think so, this is what the current model looks like :










The max bill signature is on the back.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2009)

webvan said:


> I don't think so, this is what the current model looks like :
> 
> The max bill signature is on the back.


That's the current chrono model. There has been no chrono at all in the 60ties. The original Max Bill is a hw 36mm three hand watch.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes, but I was referring to the picture posted by const it certainly looks different than the current model, maybe a previous reedition ?


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2009)

webvan said:


> Yes, but I was referring to the picture posted by const it certainly looks different than the current model, maybe a previous reedition ?


Read the dials and you know ;.)


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Can you be more specific ? The pictures clearly show two different watches and the one I posted is of the current version, so I'm not sure what that other version is. Since you say they didn't make a chrono in the sixties, it has to be a previous reedition.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2009)

webvan said:


> Can you be more specific ?


Sure I can.

The chronoscope is the current chrono. The Max Bill by Junghans chrono was launched in 2008 to commemorate the 100 anniversary of Max Bill and was limited to 100 pcs.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

And that's the one in const's picture then, ok, case closed.


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## brummyjon (Jan 27, 2010)

stuffler said:


> The original Max Bill is a hw 36mm three hand watch.


Is that correct? The original 60s version was actually BIGGER than the reissue? (36mm vs 34mm).

(I'm not doubting your knowledge here, Mike, just wondering if it was a typing error).

What about your Trilastic, Abbazz? Is that a 36mm?

(I appreciate this thread is old, so not sure how likely I am to get a response...)


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## ibodhidogma (Feb 24, 2010)

This is funny because I JUST won this Junghans on ebay for 5 euros (!) and I was JUST coming to post an image in the German Forum to see if anyone knew if it is a Max Bill design... then I saw this thread. 

Tell me what you think...

PS: Unfortunately this is the only image I have until it arrives.
PPS: The owner said it stops from time to time so I'll need to get it serviced. Any idea how much a servicing usually costs?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

The last 36mm Max Bill went off ebay on the 28.th of March 2010 for 235 Euro ! So I am pretty sure there have been models with 36mm diameter. 
The reissue was 34,2mm, height 8mm. However junghanswatches.co.uk mention 38mm cases.

A 1958 gents Trilastic with J 93/1 movement shows up on the Ranfft data base: 33,5 mm diameter.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

I would not consider this one to be a typical Max Bill design. However a lot of watches of the 60ties have been made in the same style, even by Junghans.


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## ibodhidogma (Feb 24, 2010)

That Trilastic has got to be one of the most beautiful watches I have ever seen. Now I know what "the goal" is. 

Congratulations!


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## ibodhidogma (Feb 24, 2010)

stuffler said:


> I would not consider this one to be a typical Max Bill design. However a lot of watches of the 60ties have been made in the same style, even by Junghans.


I see what you mean. It's not flat enough, or something...

It is still a nice representation of that Max Bill look. And the fact that it is Junghans gives it a little 'street cred'. b-)


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## brummyjon (Jan 27, 2010)

stuffler said:


> The last 36mm Max Bill went off ebay on the 28.th of March 2010 for 235 Euro ! So I am pretty sure there have been models with 36mm diameter.





stuffler said:


> A 1958 gents Trilastic with J 93/1 movement shows up on the Ranfft data base: 33,5 mm diameter.


Thanks for the info, Mike. :-!



stuffler said:


> The reissue was 34,2mm, height 8mm. However junghanswatches.co.uk mention 38mm cases.


From what I've seen, I think the 38mm is the automatic model. (40mm for the Chronoscope).

I'm guessing that the Max Bills probably wear quite big (especially the models with silvered dials) because of the thin bezel.

I'm now wondering if the 38mm will look a bit big, and at the same time wondering if the 34.2mm will look big enough! (I think a trip to an AD is in order...)


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## Captain Beefheart (Oct 4, 2011)

I am reviving this thread with a broader question: is there, anywhere, some kind of reference that catalogues or has pictures of the various designs Max Bill did for Junghans over the years. There are a number of watches out there, presumably from the 50's/60's, that have distinct similarities to the current Junghans Max Bill reissues. Searching the web, even in German, shows few specifics about the designs he did for the company.

For example, this watch has many similarities to some of the current Max Bill reissues, but could anyone tell me if it's a Max Bill design?









It's really hard to figure out which Junghans watch (and clock) designs are actual 'Max Bill designs' or if they are just in the 'Max Bill Style.' Any hints??

TIA
Michael


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## lambstew (Nov 13, 2006)

*Sounds like you are at the point I was about 5 years ago or longer searching for the same kind of scarce original info on these. First off, so there are no illusions about what you just purchased, I can safely say after having studied these for a number of years that your example is definitely not one of the Max Bill models*. *It's a lovely watch from that era but no banana..

Here is a helpful thread I saved from another forum which shows an original Junghans catalog excerpt illustrating the basic models, both automatic and manual wind.

• Thema anzeigen - Junghans Automatic - Altersbestimmung

Here also is an expanded excerpt which appeared in a 2002 Klassik Uhren (issue 6) magazine article on the subject:










Here is my original next to a first year re-edition (no lume dots on the dial):










Keep hunting..they do turn up but have become very difficult to source, especially after the re-editions hit the market..

Cheers & good luck!

Konrad

*


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## Captain Beefheart (Oct 4, 2011)

Konrad, thanks so much for the link and the pics and info! Very helpful indeed!!!


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

Captain Beefheart said:


> I am reviving this thread with a broader question: is there, anywhere, some kind of reference that catalogues or has pictures of the various designs Max Bill did for Junghans over the years. There are a number of watches out there, presumably from the 50's/60's, that have distinct similarities to the current Junghans Max Bill reissues. Searching the web, even in German, shows *few specifics about the designs he did for the company*.
> 
> _Mike Stuffler already wrote it in a former post: D__efinitely o__nly kitchen-clocks were designed by Max Bill for Junghans. _
> _This is, what I found on MoMA's homepage, referring to the kitchen-clock:
> ...


I like those watches, either being 'Bauhaus' or 'Max Bill' - I don't care,

Volker ;-)


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## PapaSpongebob71 (May 6, 2013)

Hello !
Does anyone know the worth of this Watch 
and if there is anyone who´s collecting this type of Watch ?















I think it´s the #14 "Junghans Design 84/6962" ?

Thank you very much !


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## lambstew (Nov 13, 2006)

PapaSpongebob71 said:


> Hello !
> Does anyone know the worth of this Watch
> and if there is anyone who´s collecting this type of Watch ?
> 
> ...


Thanks for showing. Your Max Bill appears to be authentic. Here is some further reading in German:

• Thema anzeigen - Junghans Automatic - Altersbestimmung


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, a pic of the movement would be nice. Those Max Bill (he designed for Junghans from 1957 to 1962) were fitted with a J 84/S3 or J 84/S10 (hw), also know as 684. The automatic Max Bill were powered by a J 83 E. In total two basic dial designs + 6 variations.

The J 84 came in a lot of variations, i.e. with screw balance, different shock protection (Kif Duofix). Ranfft is a good source to check its pedigree.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

I don't have any attention of causing controversy, but just rather recording history. You can find out more about Max Bill by reading up on him in wikipedia, and even more by reading a paper put out by the Institute for German -american studies on the failure of the Bauhaus to restart after WWII. To clear up one misconception: Max Bill , who was Swiss (as was Paul Kleee, a major Bauhaus figure) was not a major player in the Bauhaus movement, and he was associated with it as student for two years . He is usually listed with a number of other students of that time including Fritz winter, Eugen Batz and Werner Drewes that went on to become important painters or designers. The dials he were assocaited with came out during the Dessau period of the Bauhaus. Who designed them is not now known, and they were used by several watch manufacturers at the time (the late 1920s) until the Bauhaus was officially abolished by the .... Government. One of the firms that used these dials was Dugena, who were headquartered in Berlin at the time and there were probably several other firms which also used the dials that are now credited to Max Bill. This was still in the late 1920s and 1930s. Dugena still uses them _to this day_ and you can go into a German department store and find Junghans watches which are called "Max Bill" watches and Dugena watches which are called "Dessau" watches which have precisely the same dials. So the claim that Max Bill created these dials should be treated with some caution. After WW2, Max Bill participated with several other former students of the Bauhaus in trying to reestablish it in East Germany (Weimar) where it was originally located. It was abolished in the early 1970s by the East German government as being "elitist". I'm not sure when Max Bill went to work for Jughans, but I doubt that in the 1960s he certainly was not copying designs that had already been commercialized in the late 1920s, some 30 years before.

Whatever Max Bill's contribution of Junghans design is will have to excavated from under the load of fantasy copywriters have buried it. Thought there is no doubt that Max Bill worked for Junghans, it seems that advertising departments may be overly eager to attribute to him works that he may not have had a part in, while ignoring works of far greater importance that the watch loving public deserves to see after these many years.

What is written in watch catalogs may not necessarily be God's voice on earth, and copywriters may not be avatars of truth in the watch industry. A few hours of research on Bauhaus and Max Bill both on the Internet and your local library will bring you, no doubt to conclusions much like mine. Also, if you look at Dugena, both their current site and also at the the numerous examples available on eBay.de, you will see that it is much more difficult to say conclusively who the designer of a dial is--after all, they are never signed, than ad men would have you believe.


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## Jane1975 (May 9, 2013)

Somewhere else said:


> I don't have any attention of causing controversy, but just rather recording history. You can find out more about Max Bill by reading up on him in wikipedia, and even more by reading a paper put out by the Institute for German -american studies on the failure of the Bauhaus to restart after WWII. To clear up one misconception: Max Bill , who was Swiss (as was Paul Kleee, a major Bauhaus figure) was not a major player in the Bauhaus movement, and he was associated with it as student for two years . He is usually listed with a number of other students of that time including Fritz winter, Eugen Batz and Werner Drewes that went on to become important painters or designers. The dials he were assocaited with came out during the Dessau period of the Bauhaus. Who designed them is not now known, and they were used by several watch manufacturers at the time (the late 1920s) until the Bauhaus was officially abolished by the .... Government. One of the firms that used these dials was Dugena, who were headquartered in Berlin at the time and there were probably several other firms which also used the dials that are now credited to Max Bill. This was still in the late 1920s and 1930s. Dugena still uses them _to this day_ and you can go into a German department store and find Junghans watches which are called "Max Bill" watches and Dugena watches which are called "Dessau" watches which have precisely the same dials. So the claim that Max Bill created these dials should be treated with some caution. After WW2, Max Bill participated with several other former students of the Bauhaus in trying to reestablish it in East Germany (Weimar) where it was originally located. It was abolished in the early 1970s by the East German government as being "elitist". I'm not sure when Max Bill went to work for Jughans, but I doubt that in the 1960s he certainly was not copying designs that had already been commercialized in the late 1920s, some 30 years before.
> 
> Whatever Max Bill's contribution of Junghans design is will have to excavated from under the load of fantasy copywriters have buried it. Thought there is no doubt that Max Bill worked for Junghans, it seems that advertising departments may be overly eager to attribute to him works that he may not have had a part in, while ignoring works of far greater importance that the watch loving public deserves to see after these many years.
> 
> What is written in watch catalogs may not necessarily be God's voice on earth, and copywriters may not be avatars of truth in the watch industry. A few hours of research on Bauhaus and Max Bill both on the Internet and your local library will bring you, no doubt to conclusions much like mine. Also, if you look at Dugena, both their current site and also at the the numerous examples available on eBay.de, you will see that it is much more difficult to say conclusively who the designer of a dial is--after all, they are never signed, than ad men would have you believe.


Hi there,

interesting view, but I don't really agree, as the available documentation leaves little doubt in my opinion that Max Bill created three basic watch designs for Junghans wristwatches in 1962.

I started a blog in which I compiled all the documentation I could find on the internet, as well as photos of original 1960s Max Bill Junghans watches:

A Short Guide: The Original Max Bill Junghans Watch Design from 1962: A Short Guide: The Original Max Bill Junghans Watch Design from 1962

In the old 1960s Junghans catalogue, three basic designs are clearly attributed to Max Bill, and there seems to be little dispute regarding this fact. Apparently the watch designs are also being mentioned in books about Max Bill, but I do not own these books myself.


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## rokoce (Sep 11, 2013)

Sorry to bring up a long forgotten thread, but does this look like a genuine vintage Max Bill to you? I will most probably buy it. The movement is correct (J84/S10) and everything else seems to check out, but I'd like a second confirmation from you, experts. I also found the same dial on the original Max Bill fan site (A Short Guide: The Original Max Bill Junghans Watch Design from 1962: A Short Guide: The Original Max Bill Junghans Watch Design from 1962). Thanks for your help.


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