# Helson watches or the wanabe divers



## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

Helson or the wanabe diver ...

Let me tell you the story I have experienced with Helson watches

I may introduce myself breifly : I am a watch collector since more than 20 years and I focus my collection on dive watches : this passion for dive watches is linked to my sport activityI am a diver since 1973today PADI Assistant InstructorCMAS *** and IANTD technical diver rEvo rebreather diver

When helson watches first introduced their re-edition of the Omega Seamaster 1000I jumped on the occasion to have an historic look diver without the fear of diving with itso I ordered the Sharkmasterone of my diving buddiesJean-Marc also ordered that watch... and the nightmare began...

After a dive at 40 meters the watch was completly flooded ! quiet a disapointment for a piece supposed to be 1000 meters waterproof ... Peter Helson replaced the watch with anotherbut not in the configuration I had ordered ! (lefty and black date instead of standard with white date)as I was a little bit pissed off sending back to Hong Kong the watchI decided to keep it like this ... but not for a long time










Jean-Marc faced exactly the same problem with a dive at 17 meters : the watch was flooded and he asked for a replacementon his side the watch was the same model as he had ordered

For my first dive at 20 meters with the new Sharkmasterthe watch was filled with condensation : game over !

This time I asked Peter Helson a full money refunJean-Marc asked for a replacement ... and flooded it again !!!! as he really wanted the watch he asked for a replacement : at last his third Sharkmaster was waterproof !!

Sharkmaster : 5 watches (2 on my side3 on Jean-Marc's side) only 1 really waterproof

You should think the story finally had a happy ending ... but call me madI thought this was only bad luck and Peter Helson seemed really sorry for thoses bad storiesso when the Skindiver was issuedmy wife who is also a diver liked so much the design that I ordered again from Peter Helsonand guess what ... the watch was full of condensation at the fisrt dive ! hopefully my wife discovered the condensation only at 11 meters so she aborted the dive and got back to surface !










Peter Helson this time did not seem to believe my storyand even did not propose to replace the watch immediatly ... after several e-mail exchanges he admitted that there was a potential problemtoo late for meso I decided to open the watch and have a lookFirst what stroke my mindwas a dry o ringand 2 little metal particles inside the casethat is what you can probably expect from a watch made in hong kong ?

The design is a complete nonsense : 3 bridges are bent from an external ring to avoid movement movesbut thoses bridges bent manually prevent the caseback to fully close ! : the watch is waterproof 1 to 3 metersafter it leaks !I have tested the watch is a «wet» tester where you can perfectly see the bubbles coming out from the caseback



















As Peter Helson did not propose me any real solutions (send the watch back so the factory «can have a look»)I decided to fix the watch by myself : I bent the bridges down so they do not touch the caseback when it is screwed backand guess what .... I solved the problemI have tested the watch at 5 ATM and finally it passed the testSo if you intend to dive with your Helsonbe warned that you might be obliged to finish the job by yourself










Peter Helson never proposed me any arrangement for this problemso I decided to tell the story over different watch forums : when you buy from Helsonyou buy a wanade diverfar from what you can expect of a real dive watch : a Seiko diver 3 times cheaper does the job !

I personnally always dive with my watchesnot as a real dive tool but for pleasureand I have never been faced to such a failure ratio with any manufacturers !


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## cojis (Dec 21, 2008)

Interesting post. What a shame that a dive watch cannot be dived! Your investigation of the inside of the watch certainly seemed to determine the flooding problems - if this is the case with Helson watches, buyer beware indeed! 

Who else out there has tested the WR of these Helsons?

Wannabe diver it is indeed!


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

Wow, I'm really surprised and upset about the lack of quality control. I have 2 Shark divers and even though I don't dive deep, my watches were waterproof. Peter has been great with me as far as customer service and I hope he takes this seriously and has a long talk with his Hong Kong suppliers. This is not the type of rep he wants to have and I'm sure he's smart enough to get on this and fix things quickly.


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

Don't believe everything you read on the web, I find it odd that one small batch of divers in one part of the world have consistent problems with one brand, I have never had this problem and I have never heard of this from anyone else, it can be true and it can be a hit piece.

I do dive by the way and have takes a Sharkmaster to 100+ feet several times, I haven't taken the Skindiver down yet but have to fear of doing it ASAP.


Kwcsports said:


> Wow, I'm really surprised and upset about the lack of quality control. I have 2 Shark divers and even though I don't dive, I assumed the watches were waterproof. Peter has been great with me as far as customer service and I hope he takes this seriously and has a long talk with his Hong Kong suppliers. This is not the type of rep he wants to have and I'm sure he's smart enough to get on this and fix things quickly.


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## Mako (Apr 21, 2007)

So many mishaps seem more than coincidental. Perhaps these were only intended for those of us who are true "desk divers", and the 1000 meter rating is the distance one would travel from your desk to a water cooler? Shame when such issues arise.


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## boboo1421 (Jul 23, 2010)

OMG!
This definitely is a TORNADO!
How is your exp. with other diver? (Ex: Deep blue, Benarus, Zenton, Zixen, and etc...These cases seems to MIC, too)

I already inform Peter about this thread...I think he should be introduced and has the right to speak here...
From michel's inside post of skindiver... the bending of the bridge is really weired...


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## NYDan (Mar 23, 2008)

Not sure what to say. I love my Skindiver and had great customer service from Peter. I don't dive and don't plan on ever doing so. I guess I do swim once in a while however. I really don't want to open up my Skindiver. Should be fine for swimming but would I risk it? I have swam without problems with my PRS 50B. Going to Barbados next month. Which watch to take? Hmm.... 

Dan


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

NYDan said:


> Not sure what to say. I love my Skindiver and had great customer service from Peter. I don't dive and don't plan on ever doing so. I guess I do swim once in a while however. I really don't want to open up my Skindiver. Should be fine for swimming but would I risk it? I have swam without problems with my PRS 50B. Going to Barbados next month. Which watch to take? Hmm....
> 
> Dan


I have had mine underwater a few times but no deeper than 10-15 ft with no problems at all. I think the majority of Peter's watches are fine and you can swim without worrying. If you're worried, look around your town for a watch shop that can pressure test it.


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## MGtheGreat (Dec 27, 2010)

this to me goes to show that helson watches are crap and full of bs ..it claims to be used for diving to a depth of 1000m..but cant survive a meager 17m..what a load of bs!!you shud try maybe seiko's OM.at least its from a bigger,more reputable company


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## henryjbird (Jun 25, 2006)

Something does not add up here.

I have the Sharkmaster and while I have not dove to any significant depth, I have swam with it and never any issue. However ... since I have not gone to depth, I can't speak to the 1000m depth rating.

I can however speak to the customer service .... and I'd struggle to better understand why my experience has been so much different.

First, my clasp failed .... I sent a quick note to Peter, no questions asked ... a new one was shipped by the end of the day and in short order was back in business.

Next ..... through operator error .... I was quick trotting through the airport parking lot, running a bit late and putting my watch on as I walked .... dropped it. 

Smack dab onto the cement. Landed on the edge of the bezel. Despite the impact and the bezel truly being smashed ..... not a single other issue. Watch still ran great. Looked like hell. So I send another note and ask if I can buy a bezel and insert. Peter responds immediately and gives me a fair price. I procrastinate .... wait a month and finally ask about the process for payment .... another answer by end of day. I send the payment.

Now a days go buy and stretches into a week .... no Bezel .... ( I do understand that Honk Kong to Denver is a distance but had been spoiled by previous experience).

So a quick note to Peter ..... he apologizes, says there was a mix up in the hand off of the order (remember this is a non standard purchase.... as I am buying a bezel and insert due to my own goof up) ..... and he offers to give me a rubber strap to make up for it.

Now compare that to my other recent overseas purchase .... a high end shotgun case from England (no offense lads) ..... and it takes a month to get here (it was an off the shelf model) .... when it gets here, it is in crap condition. Took another 3 weeks to resolve the issue (while they made good .... they were none so easy to contact nor too fast).

I am not disparaging the original poster .... but our experiences are quite different in regards to the customer service we have received from Helson.

An added note .... despite being dropped and hitting hard enough to destroy the bezel ..... the only "work" done post drop was to replace the bezel ...... still no leaks while swimming.

Henry


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## boboo1421 (Jul 23, 2010)

A swim and dive is quite different...
And the CS story told by the OP I think it's ok...
But the most and serious to discuss here I think it's the case design to hold up for ATMs when you dive...
After all, a 50m watch can do the swimming task...My Tissot PR50 dose.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

I have keep track of all the e-mails exchanged with Mr Helson as a proof of what I am saying
I am not the only customer who experienced a flood during diving has Mr Helson confess to me in one of his e-mail : one Sharkmaster have been flooded by a German customer also

of course many of the customers do not dive with their watches so I fully understand that it is a minority of users which will be faced with such problems ... but is this a DIVE watch after all ? or a wanabe diver ?

I curently dive to depth up to 200 feets and more (60 meters) and I am expecting my watches to be capable of handeling such depth, specially when they are "certified" to by far greater depth

anyone thinking that I flood the watches by mistake should think just a minute ... this is a real piss off ! obliging me to send watches back to manufacturer and spend some time on thoses issues, I definitly like the design of thoses watches, but quality is just rubish


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

_A swim and dive is quite different..._

yes thank you boboo ... definitivly very different , I must say that both of my Helson where waterproof for swimming , a totally diferent story when diving


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## trinity027 (Feb 11, 2006)

I have 3 Helson watches. I only dive a few times a year recreationaly in Paradise Island Bahamas, and St. Barts and the surrounding areas, I also swim regularly in Lake Michigan, and have had no issues with my Helson watches. I can also say first hand that I have had nothing but first class customer service from Helson watches.


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## watchngars (Nov 20, 2008)

In ;-)


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

boboo1421 said:


> OMG!
> This definitely is a TORNADO!
> How is your exp. with other diver? (Ex: Deep blue, Benarus, Zenton, Zixen, and etc...These cases seems to MIC, too)
> 
> ...


My experience with other dive watches .... numerous and without any problems
from Rolex to Seiko , from Sinn to Omega even with vintages , I *really* dive with my watches and never been faced to such a failure ratio
my only experience of flooded dive watches where with a Swatch Scuba (a real gadget flooded at 20 meters) and with a Citizen , but nothing due to the watch itself : the watchmaker who change the battery have piched the case O ring


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## abuemily (Feb 21, 2008)

It doesn't sound like a CS issue to me--appears that Peter responded quickly and properly. It appears to be a QC issue. I seriously doubt that Helson/Peter tests each one of his watches any more than most companies do. Maybe QC at the factory has slipped; I very much doubt the OP is making this up or that he (and wife and friend) left the crowns unscrewed on that many watches. This probably bears some looking into.


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## Niltusk (Jul 22, 2008)

lexvil said:


> Don't believe everything you read on the web


What does that mean? You doubt jean-michel is being forthright?

A quality poster for 6 years who has posted a horde of pics of him diving in quality watches (Doxa, Sinn, etc.) who obviously has knowledge of nice diving watches and seems to be just giving facts about a situation rather then trying to hatchet a company (he even found a fix to the problem) and what part of the web here aren't we to believe?

Yeah, its hard to believe that a factory could have an error and not caught it, that never happens does it? :roll:


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## boboo1421 (Jul 23, 2010)

to Michel:
Any experience with other Hong-Kong case company?


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## primerak (Sep 1, 2010)

JM - Thanks for sharing and testing the watches. CS aside, although most probably buys these watches purely on aesthetics they should should really be tested better for WR, considering they are being marketed as divers with specific depth ratings. It would be interesting to hear about others who have dived with these or other boutique divers?


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

First a disclaimer, I buy my watches just like everyone else, I have to business or personal relationship with Helson or any other Watch maker.
I dive, I hit 100 feet regularly and sometimes go deeper but there is little reason to in reality. I have worn several different watches from several makers and never had one fail or leak other than a bluering that someone had been checking out before a dive, had it serviced and checked and never another problem with it, my assumption is someone loosened the crown and it was my fault for not checking.

With today's claim I opened my Skindiver, even managed to scratch the case back because the lock ring was so tight. The raised bumps are the movement spacer I believe which hold the movement in place, it is metal where you often see plastic.
What I find is a well made well designed watch case, the spacers {tabs in question} on mine allow 100% contact with the o-ring case seal, sorry for the poor picture but it was done on my desk top with the camera flash close so there is a lot of glare.}








The basic design is a good one and actually is a nice classic design that is very good on seals, there is a large surface area that clears everything just fine and the lock ring applies even pressure on the back and the seal.









I have no idea why the OP had this problem, My watch was bought at random and everything checks out just fine as far as I can tell, I will dive this watch but it may not be until my trip to the channel islands in July. This proves no more than the other claim but if I had bought a watch and had the problems of the OP I would never have bought another, that is just how I am, to many choices out there to risk problems and to much fun to have.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

no sorry boboo ... but I think I am fed up with thoses hong kong watches .... tested 3 of thoses Helson and I think it is enough : but I might be a beta tester ... for free


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

jean-michel said:


> My experience with other dive watches .... numerous and without any problems
> from Rolex to Seiko , from Sinn to Omega even with vintages


It would have been nice if you'd shared some of these experiences with this community over the last several years. I'm sure many would benefit from and be interested in those as well.

Unfortunate that it took this experience to bring you back.


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

Niltusk said:


> What does that mean? You doubt jean-michel is being forthright?
> 
> A quality poster for 6 years who has posted a horde of pics of him diving in quality watches (Doxa, Sinn, etc.) who obviously has knowledge of nice diving watches and seems to be just giving facts about a situation rather then trying to hatchet a company (he even found a fix to the problem) and what part of the web here aren't we to believe?
> 
> Yeah, its hard to believe that a factory could have an error and not caught it, that never happens does it? :roll:


Amen to ALL the above.
Jean-Michel KNOWS watches and KNOWS diving.
I've never owned a Helson but I've enjoyed JM's posts and pics for years and GUARANTEE he's not slagging a brand just for fun.


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

I think the op has made some very valid point here with good evidence. Diver styling needs to match diver capabilities. I'm sure moisture failure can occur with any watch that someone actually dives with, but a design flaw from a "dive watch company" should be part of the problem. I'm hope some experienced divers here will share their experiences with diving wearing other boutique brand dive watches. Maybe Omega, BP and Rolex know something the other brands don't? I don't know, but something doesn't seem right. Do companies design a dive watch to look like the Omega, but no perform like one?


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## Niltusk (Jul 22, 2008)

Oh, I definitely don't think this story makes the Helson trash, I just think its something they need to have checked into by their manufacturer. They still make a product that has made alot of people happy, but if there is something being overlooked in QC at the factory, I'm sure everyone, especially Helson will want to know whats going on.


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## ikkoku (Jun 19, 2008)

hidden by leaves said:


> It would have been nice if you'd shared some of these experiences with this community over the last several years. I'm sure many would benefit from and be interested in those as well.


search for his posts and you'll find them


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

Niltusk said:


> Oh, I definitely don't think this story makes the Helson trash, I just think its something they need to have checked into by their manufacturer. They still make a product that has made alot of people happy, but if there is something being overlooked in QC at the factory, I'm sure everyone, especially Helson will want to know whats going on.


I love my Helson's and I have friends that also love theirs. But I personally think that each watch should be tested to at least 1/10th of its rating and it appears like this is not happening with every watch. For 600-1200 dollars, a dive watch should not leak at 100ft, imo of course.


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

ikkoku said:


> search for his posts and you'll find them


I did. Most of them start almost three years ago, which was exactly my point (which you seem to have missed). Thanks though.


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## rajenmaniar (Feb 8, 2006)

I remember the hoopla created by the OP when Sharkmaster first came out and is happening again with the Skindiver.
Am not sure what the truth is here but I am taking this whole story with a pinch of salt.


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## OnTimeGabe (Aug 6, 2006)

Kwcsports said:


> For 600-1200 dollars, a dive watch should not leak at 100ft, imo of course.


I can tell you that if I owned a dive watch company and one of my watches flooded, I'd personally test the replacement myself to ensure the problem wouldn't happen again. A customer should never experience this twice. You can have bad luck with something like a movement, but WR is so easily tested that I'm puzzled why Peter didn't do it.


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

OnTimeGabe said:


> I can tell you that if I owned a dive watch company and one of my watches flooded, I'd personally test the replacement myself to ensure the problem wouldn't happen again. A customer should never experience this twice. You can have bad luck with something like a movement, but WR is so easily tested that I'm puzzled why Peter didn't do it.


I was thinking the exact same thing Gabe.


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

I find JM's recap of his experiences to be 100% credible. Peter has come up with (and flat out copied) some very fetching designs and delivered watches that at first glance would appear to offer great bang for the buck. But we all know, there is no free lunch -- so a situation like this rearing its ugly head should be no surprise. Having to rely on OEM's and ODM's who will produce product for *anyone* who ponies up the RMB from half a world away is not conducive to QC. However, 1000m should mean 1000m. And, if a company is going to claim to offer DIVE WATCHES, these should be legitimate ISO 6425 dive watches (or comparable established standards). Otherwise, call them what they are... great looking, nicely priced DIVE-LIKE watches. Again, no surprises here.

The fact that JM (and friend's/wife's) watches failed at such modest depths is just amazing, though. Chinese watches and water evidently do not mix. Yes, it is a stereotype, but my motto is "stereotypes are *earned*".


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## kgriner (May 29, 2009)

*That's kind of an unfair statement.* I'm sure Peter tests his watches, however, *flukes and bad lots do happen in manufacturing*...PERIOD. It happens. I have a skindiver that should arrive today and I would trust it AND Peter to do what they are supposed to do. BUT the comment " helson watches are crap and full of bs" is *deformation of character and his product*, it is not a fair judgement...and is kinda irresponsible in a public forum.

Kg



MGtheGreat said:


> this to me goes to show that helson watches are crap and full of bs ..it claims to be used for diving to a depth of 1000m..but cant survive a meager 17m..what a load of bs!!you shud try maybe seiko's OM.at least its from a bigger,more reputable company


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

Whatever the reason for the watches flooding - a design flaw or operator error, I think the customer service has been adequate - refunds and replacements on the first few watches, but in the end, it is unusual that the watches keep on flooding when few others have reported the same issue. It could be a case of serious bad luck, which is what it sounds like. In either case, this won't really stop me from purchasing Helson watches, as I've had no issues with watertightness with mine.


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## kgriner (May 29, 2009)

OnTimeGabe said:


> I can tell you that if I owned a dive watch company and one of my watches flooded, I'd personally test the replacement myself to ensure the problem wouldn't happen again. A customer should never experience this twice. You can have bad luck with something like a movement, but WR is so easily tested that I'm puzzled why Peter didn't do it.


There would be absolutely no reason to check the 2nd one, but the 3rd on, I agree...


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

Me too, I also recall another watch coming out right after the SM and every thread about the SM being flooded with posters who hadn't been here regularly and soon disappearing, probably a coincidence but are we in for another Fifty Fathoms look a like?


rajenmaniar said:


> I remember the hoopla created by the OP when Sharkmaster first came out and is happening again with the Skindiver.
> Am not sure what the truth is here but I am taking this whole story with a pinch of salt.


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

At this price point, is it unreasonable to have each watch tested for WR ? I'm asking a serious question guys and not being a smart ass. Do other companies check each watch ? or do you need to spend more cash to have this be the norm ?


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## tallguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Something to be said for ISO 6425 tested watches.....of which I know of no micros that are.....(but Marathon and Seiko Divers are!)


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

I doubt very many do except those that claim the ISO standard, Casio is reputed to test every Frogman but I have no idea really who does or doesn't, it would probably add $25 to $50 to the price, I would rather not pay for something that I'll do myself in the real world and for the record all I want from any maker is an honest 100 meter rating {so 200 is ok 300 is ok but trying for more is a waste of time and makes the watch to thick and heavy. IMHO}


Kwcsports said:


> At this price point, is it unreasonable to have each watch tested for WR ? I'm asking a serious question guys and not being a smart ass. Do other companies check each watch ? or do you need to spend more cash to have this be the norm ?


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## kgriner (May 29, 2009)

I would think they could batch test them to keep down costs... ANd to be honost, no one dives 100 meters!



lexvil said:


> I doubt very many do except those that claim the ISO standard, Casio is reputed to test every Frogman but I have no idea really who does or doesn't, it would probably add $25 to $50 to the price, I would rather not pay for something that I'll do myself in the real world and for the record all I want from any maker is an honest 100 meter rating {so 200 is ok 300 is ok but trying for more is a waste of time and makes the watch to thick and heavy. IMHO}


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## lordsinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

Tragic said:


> ...Jean-Michel KNOWS watches and KNOWS diving. I've never owned a Helson but I've enjoyed JM's posts and pics for years and GUARANTEE he's not slagging a brand just for fun.


As John says, Jean-Michel knows what he is talking about. I don't know him personally, but his credentials here are well established.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

First a disclaimer, I buy my watches just like everyone else, I have to business or personal relationship with Helson or any other Watch maker.

*me neither *

I dive, I hit 100 feet regularly and sometimes go deeper but there is little reason to in reality.

*There are MANY reasons to dive deeper than 100 ft, but this is another story : I am a technical diver using a rebreather and enjoying deep dives, but I am qualified to do so and also dive instructor, however I really see no points of discussion in this forum, perhaps at the exception of saying that I flood my fisrt Helson at 130 ft*

I have worn several different watches from several makers and never had one fail or leak other than a bluering that someone had been checking out before a dive, had it serviced and checked and never another problem with it, my assumption is someone loosened the crown and it was my fault for not checking.

*I have hundreds of logged dives from shalow to very deep, I have always worn a dive watch and I continue to do so , again I do not see a point of discussion over this forum, but the only thing I can say I am not a newbee in diving and I know what a dive watch is*

With today's claim I opened my Skindiver, even managed to scratch the case back because the lock ring was so tight. The raised bumps are the movement spacer I believe which hold the movement in place, it is metal where you often see plastic.
What I find is a well made well designed watch case, the spacers {tabs in question} on mine allow 100% contact with the o-ring case seal, sorry for the poor picture but it was done on my desk top with the camera flash close so there is a lot of glare.}

*just dive at 100 ft or more with it and tell us .... this design is simply a mistake because the bridges are too rigid , they came in contact with the caseback, preventing it to fully close and press corectly the O ring : my Skindiver fail during real diving but also with the water tester a 3 ATM*

The basic design is a good one and actually is a nice classic design that is very good on seals, there is a large surface area that clears everything just fine and the lock ring applies even pressure on the back and the seal.

*I can also point that the design of this supposed dive watch is weak : look to the crown : only one ring : if the crown is not fully and tightly srewed it might leak, none of modern divers I know use only one o-ring only old Vostok do so ... but they are quit cheaper and ... they do not leak like a Helson !*

I have no idea why the OP had this problem, My watch was bought at random and everything checks out just fine as far as I can tell, I will dive this watch but it may not be until my trip to the channel islands in July. This proves no more than the other claim but if I had bought a watch and had the problems of the OP I would never have bought another, that is just how I am, to many choices out there to risk problems and to much fun to have
*
I sincerly belive Peter Helson when he appoligise and speak about "bad luck" : you are right I should not belive him  ... his watches are only good for wanabe divers : back to square one and the beginning of my post *


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## ky70 (Jun 3, 2009)

lexvil said:


> I doubt very many do except those that claim the ISO standard, Casio is reputed to test every Frogman but I have no idea really who does or doesn't, it would probably add $25 to $50 to the price, I would rather not pay for something that I'll do myself in the real world and for the record all I want from any maker is an honest 100 meter rating {so 200 is ok 300 is ok but trying for more is a waste of time and makes the watch to thick and heavy. IMHO}


So you're ok with the WR being tested first by you and not the watch maker? I don't think that is the appropriate order of things. This has no doubt been debating before, but if the watchmaker does not test these watches, why are unconfirmed depths printed on the dial and advertised?


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

You should hit reply with quote so people know who you are addressing {me by the way} I don't know why you have such bad luck with Helson and not any of the other watches that are made exactly the same way, really no idea but why did you give them a second shot? {meaning why buy another?}


jean-michel said:


> First a disclaimer, I buy my watches just like everyone else, I have to business or personal relationship with Helson or any other Watch maker.
> 
> *me neither *
> 
> ...


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

I give Helson a second chance, just because I belived to what Peter Helson told me ... perhaps I was too ... honest ?
this time I think it is important to share my experience with others, just beacuse I do not belive in this "bad luck"

I am not this kind of guy complaining when I have a little problem, when I flood my first Helson, I keep it for me thinking that a problem might occur ... the second one flooded, Peter Helson offers money back : that was fine, I simply think that it was a QC problem and Peter Helson was so sorry telling me new quality insurance was in place and 100 percent of the watches tested

when Helson issue the Skindiver my wife was really in love with the design and I say "ok let us test again ... Helson told me that problems where gone and all watches tested" ... this was my big mistake


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

Ugh. I'm so sorry to read this. Both for Jean Michael who had to discover the issue and for Helson who is going to have to deal with and correct the issue.

I only own one Helson; my Tortuga which I absolutely love, and while it's just a desk diver it makes me slightly ill to wonder whether or not there's an issue with it. I am of the opinion that even if I will never need it, if it says 1000M on the dial, it should be able to do it.

I'd feel at least a little better if Peter could explain what exactly the problem was, which and approximately how many watches may have been affected, and what's going to be done to correct the issue.

_*If*_ I decide to take my Helson swimming this summer and _*if*_ I find it's leaked, I'm going to be pretty pi**ed off, and very disappointed I'm sure. Would feel very silly for paying $600 for that. Ideally, none of us should ever have to worry about this, but it seems clear there's an issue, and I think it should be dealt with quickly and publicly to quash ongoing negative brand image. That, and as a Helson owner...is my watch at risk?


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## tsaojam (May 12, 2006)

[/QUOTE]The fact that JM (and friend's/wife's) watches failed at such modest depths is just amazing, though. Chinese watches and water evidently do not mix. Yes, it is a stereotype, but my motto is "stereotypes are *earned*".[/QUOTE]

This is a stereotype now? Really just a lame generalization. Tons of seikos and casios are made in china and last i heard the seiko divers and g-shocks are holding up pretty well.


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## tsaojam (May 12, 2006)

I think the OP without a doubt has a legitimate grievance. Bad luck? Possible but regardless a dive watch advertised to 1000m should obviously do as it says. From most people's experience and mine, Peter has been great to deal with, but he might need to look into another manufacturer if this is the case or better qc in the future. Tons of other microbrand divers made in china have proven to be great real-life divers, so I'm thinking these are design / qc issues.

Hope it gets sorted out soon.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

and here is a little extract from my e-mail exchanges with Peter Helson :

_"Do you have a shop who can do a pressure test, doesen't matter if 10 or 100m I just want to know if if the humidity was already inside or if it is really untight

Regards Peter"_

do you think it is NORMAL to ask to a customer to go to a local shop to make his watch tested ? I have never read something so ridiculous ! ... and I should of course PAY for this test !
hopefully I had the wet tester at home so I have tested the watch and confirm it fails at 3 ATM


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

tsaojam said:


> I think the OP without a doubt has a legitimate grievance. Bad luck? Possible but regardless a dive watch advertised to 1000m should obviously do as it says. From most people's experience and mine, Peter has been great to deal with, but he might need to look into another manufacturer if this is the case or better qc in the future. Tons of other microbrand divers made in china have proven to be great real-life divers, so I'm thinking these are design / qc issues.
> 
> Hope it gets sorted out soon.


Couldn't agree more. Peter has always been great and is a stand up guy. I am 100% sure he will look into this and fix it.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

Kwcsports said:


> Couldn't agree more. Peter has always been great and is a stand up guy. I am 100% sure he will look into this and fix it.


do you think a "stand up guy" should ask to his customers to do the job by themselves ? .... the proposal of finding a local shop to test my watch is the perfect reflect of the company "do it yourself"
I have fixed the watch by myself, correcting a big assembly mistake, as peter helson do NOT propose me a new watch to replace this one
harm is done


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

The fact that JM (and friend's/wife's) watches failed at such modest depths is just amazing, though. Chinese watches and water evidently do not mix. Yes, it is a stereotype, but my motto is "stereotypes are *earned*".[/QUOTE]

This is a stereotype now? Really just a lame generalization. Tons of seikos and casios are made in china and last i heard the seiko divers and g-shocks are holding up pretty well.[/QUOTE]

Seiko and Citizen are made in China under Japanese supervision and QC standards and in JV's -- different animals entirely. I have been manufacturing products in PRC for many, many years -- I know the pitfalls of not being onsite and leaving OEM/ODM's to their own devices and priorities, especially with products that require any degree of close tolerances in order to perform properly. I would not trust the depth rating or QC of any non major name Chinese watch (i.e no onsite supervision and QC) based on my own business experience in working with PRC factories so, yes, for me it is a valid stereotype. There are products where stringent QC counts and others where it is not as important. With watches that one expects do actually dive with, and trust the performance representations made by the "manufacturer", it absolutely counts.


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## gonzomantis (Mar 15, 2008)

jean-michel said:


> and here is a little extract from my e-mail exchanges with Peter Helson :
> 
> _"Do you have a shop who can do a pressure test, doesen't matter if 10 or 100m I just want to know if if the humidity was already inside or if it is really untight
> 
> ...


Not to fan the flames, but if you have a wet tester why didn't you check the watches after you had your first bad experience? I don't own a Helson, but the designs have grabbed my interest. It seems a shame to have such bad luck.


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

jean-michel said:


> do you think a "stand up guy" should ask to his customers to do the job by themselves ? .... the proposal of finding a local shop to test my watch is the perfect reflect of the company "do it yourself"
> I have fixed the watch by myself, correcting a big assembly mistake, as peter helson do NOT propose me a new watch to replace this one
> harm is done


Jean-Michel, your situation is terrible but in fairness to Peter, there are 2 sides to every story and in my personal experiences with Peter, he has been great and went above and beyond. What happened to you should not happen and you are 100% correct in being upset and given the same experience, I would feel exactly the same. I won't venture to guess Peter's reasoning for asking you to have it pressure tested but I sure hope he not only addresses your issue but looks into his QC and also responds to this thread.


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## pk_diver (May 14, 2008)

Thanks Jean Micheal for sharing! :-!

Your experience only confirm my idea. If great Producers, such as Seiko and Citizen (and of course also the premium Swiss brands that we all know) say "divers watch", you can believe them. Seiko and Citizen btw have many of their models ISO-6425 tested. They have strict procedures, quality certification, and a great heritage and know-how in watch making. If a Seiko SKX007 says 200m, IT IS so, or better i guess. Then we have all the new boutique divers... new companies soucing here and there their parts, and assembling or having them assembled sowhere... They say 1000mt here, 5000mt there... :roll:


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## hordeton (Dec 27, 2007)

I have to say; I don't want to believe the OP, but it sounds look a legit problem. I, too, have a Tortuga and plan on taking it swimming this summer and wonder if it's going to hold up well. Like others here, I am not a diver, but I see a WR rating as a watch's potential and street cred. You can compare it to a sports car. Even though you may never drive a Porsche Carrera up to 200 MPH, if it is advertised and marketed as being able to reach this speed, it better be able to do it.....or the car is not worth its hype. 

At the end of the day, I bought my Tortuga because of its aesthetic and retro style, but I would be bummed to find out that the watch does not do what it claims to be able to do. For $600, a watch should be able to have decent QC and live up to its badgings. On the other hand, I've never heard anyone say anything negative about Helson on this forum. I am going to follow this post and see if there have been other reports of similar findings.


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

Nope. That's why I stick with ISO certified divers from Seiko, Citizen, Orient. I know Seiko testes each watch to 125% of it's raiting.



Kwcsports said:


> At this price point, is it unreasonable to have each watch tested for WR ? I'm asking a serious question guys and not being a smart ass. Do other companies check each watch ? or do you need to spend more cash to have this be the norm ?


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

A MattR of Time said:


> Nope. That's why I stick with ISO certified divers from Seiko, Citizen, Orient. I know Seiko testes each watch to 125% of it's raiting.


My SKX007 is one of my favorite divers. Best 200 bucks you can spend on a diver, IMHO.


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## homathetes (Dec 2, 2009)

Let's look again at the evidence here:

1) Documented and consecutive incidences of failure with the Sharkdiver
2) A careful study of a Skindiver's failure with a precise diagnosis of the cause of failure (case build quality) 
3) Peter following his respectable established CS protocol for SOME but not ALL of the incidents which Jean-Michel was in touch with him about (c.f. post #50, Peter's request to have JM do a water test himself--objectively bad CS). 
4) All this reported by a seasoned diver and longtime forum member

Look, as friendly and enthusiastically Peter has been with his customers (I've purchased a Helson SD and the transaction and the watch were great), let's make no mistake what Helson (or any watch company) is all about: selling a product. Many of us here have been impressed with our non-technical experiences with Helson, and maybe even a little amazed with how rapidly he has released new models (compared to most other 'brews and _all _of the big brands).

Now a little common sense is needed to conjecture that something has got to give, in order to be releasing these numerous & fairly high-spec models at the very affordable segment which Helson is in. The OP (who I do not know personally) has provided a fair amount of hard evidence that the problem is in the quality control of the HK casemaker. Swiss and Japanese makers have worked for years and many engineering novelties to achieve the consistent standards which Rolex or Seiko is know for. And smaller outfits like UTS take extreme personal care to make sure their QC is dead reliable. I have not seen evidence for these kinds of efforts from most if not all of these HK/Chinese-sourced brands. Threads like these lend support to this claim in a very concrete way.

Admitting this is a good thing for watch collectors, who especially prize their consumer awareness! I would be very happy to see proof from the manufacture of Helson watches (and the many new micro brands out there) that they are at the QC levels of the established brands which they are drastically attempting to undercut. It would be better for them in the long run if they did.


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## jean-michel (Apr 30, 2005)

homathetes said:


> Let's look again at the evidence here:
> 
> 1) Documented and consecutive incidences of failure with the Sharkdiver
> 2) A careful study of a Skindiver's failure with a precise diagnosis of the cause of failure (case build quality)
> ...


thank you very much for this analysis
I fully agree with all your statements
and be sure I am the one who is the more unhappy with all this story, I would by far prefer having a waterproof watch, or at least solve the problem decently with the manufacturer
unfortunately due to Peter Helson reaction , I thought I had to tell to everybody the story
I keep a copy of all my correspondance with peter helson and many other pictures of the watches


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

homathetes said:


> Let's look again at the evidence here:
> 
> 1) Documented and consecutive incidences of failure with the Sharkdiver
> 2) A careful study of a Skindiver's failure with a precise diagnosis of the cause of failure (case build quality)
> ...


Very well said and I agree.


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

Kwcsports said:


> Very well said and I agree.


Actually a lot of conjecture, documented case of failure? 3 reported issues from associates with one another. Has anyone else had a problem? I am a bit surprised that so many have jummped on the band wagon with this and so little evidence. Peter suggested taking any suspect watch out and testing it, has anyone else tested theirs? I just would like more independent evidence, is that wrong?


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

lexvil said:


> Actually a lot of conjecture, documented case of failure? 3 reported issues from associates with one another. Has anyone else had a problem? I am a bit surprised that so many have jummped on the band wagon with this and so little evidence. Peter suggested taking any suspect watch out and testing it, has anyone else tested theirs? I just would like more independent evidence, is that wrong?


Not wrong at all but in this case, he has proven that his watch had a flaw. No where did he say that every Helson is flawed but I agree that this is a QC issue and in his case, there was surely a problem. IMO if even a few watches get through with a similar issue, it's too many. As I said earlier, I've been down 15 ft with my SD's and they worked perfectly. I know that is not deep but that's as deep as I'm going.


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## notanothercamera (Apr 26, 2011)

_I'm a noob here, but this thread really caught my eye. I do not dive, but do snorkel, sometimes diving down 8 to 10 feet. I'm in the market to add to my meager collection of dive watches and am considering Helson, DOXA, Irreantum , Marathon and Seiko.

After doing what research I can online, I usually end up contacting the individual companies to get additional info. One of the first questions I ask is "Is the watch tested and certified to ISO 6425?"

I was seriously considering a Helson Tortuga. I contacted Helson by email asking this question. They have not responded. Matt at Irreantum answered all my questions, but alas, the Magellan is not tested to ISO 6425 standards. Both of these brands are out of the running, though I am sure they are fine watches in their own rights. To the best of my knowledge, only Seiko and Marathon comply with ISO 6425 standards_. I am not sure about DOXA as I have not contacted them as yet.

Is there any guarantee that a watch tested to ISO 6425 would not fail on a dive? Absolutely none! But until we as consumers demand that a dive watch be tested as a dive watch, there will be these issues.


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## OnTimeGabe (Aug 6, 2006)

lexvil said:


> Actually a lot of conjecture, documented case of failure? 3 reported issues from associates with one another. Has anyone else had a problem? I am a bit surprised that so many have jummped on the band wagon with this and so little evidence. Peter suggested taking any suspect watch out and testing it, has anyone else tested theirs? I just would like more independent evidence, is that wrong?


I don't think it's wrong to ask for more evidence. And I'd love to hear from more divers who have been to significant depths with their Helson. I think in this thread we've only had one or two people who has taken the watch for anything deeper than a swim. Frankly, a lot of desk divers talking about how much the love their Helson is of little use to someone who truly plans to use it as a diving tool.

I also believe that Jean-Michel's story is quite compelling, and he is a very credible source. He's a former moderator here, and a fixture on dive watch fora for many years. And if you do some searching, you'll find his posts on a French forum from last year when he first received the watch and was very happy with it. This isn't someone appearing out of thin air with an ax to grind. He did not rush to the Internet at the first sign of trouble, but rather allowed the customer service process to run its course. I don't think there's any disputing that he had problems, but what we don't know is whether it was an extreme case of bad luck or a sign of a larger issue.


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

I have no doubt that the watches I buy will hold up to my diving, 40 years diving experience has taught me this, I care nothing for the outrageous claims of depth rating that will never be experienced strapped to a human wrist. I never believed the 160MPH speedo either. The whole things smells like a personal grudge to me {also worked in the Ca. prison system for 29 years so I've seen a grudge or two} I would prefer makers stop with the race of the ridicules ratings but they cater to the customers.


ky70 said:


> So you're ok with the WR being tested first by you and not the watch maker? I don't think that is the appropriate order of things. This has no doubt been debating before, but if the watchmaker does not test these watches, why are unconfirmed depths printed on the dial and advertised?


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## akit110 (Jan 12, 2008)

Sounds like one disapponted helson owner to me (but what do i know, i have never worked in the Ca. prison system). Regarding, the 160mph speedometer analogy, i think this is more like a sports car experiencing failure at 20mph than topping out on the track at 155mph. 

What i would like to know is a watch forum only a place to praise a watch and its brand? Is it heresy for even a well known forum participant with credibility to voice concerns when having a poor experience? 

I reserve any judgment on Peter and Helson watches based on this one report. But this doesn't mean that i think JM's credibility is lacking or this is necessarily a grudge or a hoax. It doesn't follow that to believe one, you have to attack the other. One thing i would hope as mature reasonable adults, we can be comfortable with the ambiguity and uncertainty of a situation without immediately having to take sides.


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## Cleans Up (Jun 14, 2010)

+1, I think that his suggestion that has saved all emails, that he did not begin this discussion by flaming Helson, but rather by contacting them directly must also be considered.



Niltusk said:


> What does that mean? You doubt jean-michel is being forthright?
> 
> A quality poster for 6 years who has posted a horde of pics of him diving in quality watches (Doxa, Sinn, etc.) who obviously has knowledge of nice diving watches and seems to be just giving facts about a situation rather then trying to hatchet a company (he even found a fix to the problem) and what part of the web here aren't we to believe?
> 
> Yeah, its hard to believe that a factory could have an error and not caught it, that never happens does it? :roll:


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## iinsic (Feb 18, 2010)

The unofficial policy of Rolex, per my Rolex technician friend, is that a dive watch (i.e.-one that is designed to withstand great depths) need only be pressure tested to 3-4atm. If the seals hold at that level, the watch will remain watertight as long as the case design performs as expected. So a 1000m WR-rated watch - if passing a 3-4atm pressure test - should not leak at any depth up to the 1000m unless there is a failure of the case/crystal/back/other structural component.

That's why it is my standing policy to have every new dive watch tested for water resistance to 3-4atm before I take the wrappings off. The one time I failed to do this - an Omega Speedmaster Broad Arrow that was NOS and had a defective seal - it leaked like a sieve in the pool.

I've taken a lot of heat from some on this forum because, in three decades of diving from the late 60s through 2001, I never used anything but Omegas and Rolexes (and, thus, my belief that they are "tool" watches). My Doxa 5000T has performed perfectly underwater (and passed the 3-4atm test). So did my Boschett Cave Dweller II and my Helson Sharkmaster. Back in the old days I didn't have access to easy pressure testing, so I made sure the watches I used were renowned for their underwater performance. Now that I do have ready access to pressure testing, I have expanded my inventory of regular dive watches. I would think anyone who dives frequently and to great depth would have had a new watch from a small producer pressure tested before using it on a dive. Dive equipment is what allows you to go down and come back up and still be alive. It doesn't make much sense to me that an experienced diver is not testing his equipment _before_ his dives rather than _during_ his dives (and dive watches are part of your dive equipment). Good thing for him it was his watch and not his regulator that failed, or he wouldn't be writing on this forum.

Rob


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## FlyPenFly (May 18, 2009)

With the prices Helson sells at, there is no margin to do extensive quality testing.

It's an old cliche but pick 2:

Cheap, Reliable, Good Looking


Cheap and Good Looking but not reliable: Chinese made boutique design divers
Cheap and Reliable but not the best looks: Seiko, Citizen, Casio
Good Looking and Reliable but not cheap: Rolex, IWC, Sinn, Bremont, etc.


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## nozh2002 (May 21, 2010)

I am wondering if regular pressure testing (230ft) my watchmaker did is enough to assure that flooding will not happen in real dive?


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## swingkid (Apr 28, 2008)

I really understand the OP. He gave the company the chance to sort everything out, which they tried and failed. If I was considering buying one of these watches, I would certainly think twice, knowing what I know now. In the end I hope this brings the QC on a higher level, so everybody (also the companies) has a benefit.



iinsic said:


> It doesn't make much sense to me that an experienced diver is not testing his equipment _before_ his dives rather than _during_ his dives (and dive watches are part of your dive equipment). Good thing for him it was his watch and not his regulator that failed, or he wouldn't be writing on this forum.


(I'm not a diver)
As if diver's today, esp. in technical diving, would rely and depend on automatic dive watches! Also, - I guess - he didn't buy his rebreather, regulater etc. from a boutique company.



iinsic said:


> I would think anyone who dives frequently and to great depth would have had a new watch from a small producer pressure tested before using it on a dive. Dive equipment is what allows you to go down and come back up and still be alive.





jean-michel said:


> I personnally always dive with my watchesnot as a real dive tool but for pleasureand I have never been faced to such a failure ratio with any manufacturers !


So where should this lead us. I figure diver's can't test their equipment every time they go for a 30m dive, and I figure most don't. With a new whatch, this is the the companies job before they sell it ( just mho). After some years of use, things look differently of course.


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## iinsic (Feb 18, 2010)

swingkid said:


> I really understand the OP. He gave the company the chance to sort everything out, which they tried and failed. If I was considering buying one of these watches, I would certainly think twice, knowing what I know now. In the end I hope this brings the QC on a higher level, so everybody (also the companies) has a benefit.
> 
> (I'm not a diver)
> As if diver's today, esp. in technical diving, would rely and depend on automatic dive watches! Also, - I guess - he didn't buy his rebreather, regulater etc. from a boutique company.
> ...


You might have missed some of my point (and the fact that you're not a diver should not have influenced that). I never had to test my Rolexes and Omegas because I knew their reputation was enough. But I test every O7, Helson, Boschett, Steinhart, etc. to verify WR integrity.

There is a rarity in creation and that is a one-sided controversy. While there probably is a legitimate beef on the part of the OP, he does bear responsibility for getting any watch he expects to perform at depth - especially if from a small, unproven company - tested himself to ensure that it will perform for him whilst on a dive. He apparently does not want to take ownership of that particular failing on his part and therefore seeks to place ALL of the blame on Helson. His many supporters on this thread likewise are giving him a pass on his responsibility here. You can say all you want to about how the watch should have been tested by the manufacturer, etc., but the reality is that if he had tested the watch first he would have discovered the flaw before it resulted in a failure underwater. He quickly could have had a replacement and had it tested as well. If the second watch had failed, his problem would have been persisting in wanting to use a watch from a company that sent him two straight lemons. There is a saying where I come from, "The first time, shame on you. The second time, shame on me."

Anyone who uses a watch on dives, even as an aesthetic backup to a DC, is smart to have said watch tested before going beneath the waves. And, if not smart ... well, then the opposite.

Rob


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## jole777 (Dec 13, 2008)

Bashing campaign??
All I see is a guy who had a LOT of problems with his watch and wanted to share his experience with the rest of the watch lovers.
Adding the fact that he discovered a design flaw in the case and is actually diving with his watches all I can say is THANK YOU FOR SHARING your experience with us jean-michel.
It's up to Helson to resolve this issue and explain about QC,etc.


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## FlyPenFly (May 18, 2009)

iinsic said:


> You might have missed some of my point (and the fact that you're not a diver should not have influenced that). I never had to test my Rolexes and Omegas because I knew their reputation was enough. But I test every O7, Helson, Boschett, Steinhart, etc. to verify WR integrity.
> 
> There is a rarity in creation and that is a one-sided controversy. While there probably is a legitimate beef on the part of the OP, he does bear responsibility for getting any watch he expects to perform at depth - especially if from a small, unproven company - tested himself to ensure that it will perform for him whilst on a dive. He apparently does not want to take ownership of that particular failing on his part and therefore seeks to place ALL of the blame on Helson. His many supporters on this thread likewise are giving him a pass on his responsibility here. You can say all you want to about how the watch should have been tested by the manufacturer, etc., but the reality is that if he had tested the watch first he would have discovered the flaw before it resulted in a failure underwater. He quickly could have had a replacement and had it tested as well. If the second watch had failed, his problem would have been persisting in wanting to use a watch from a company that sent him two straight lemons. There is a saying where I come from, "The first time, shame on you. The second time, shame on me."
> 
> ...


That's rather apologist. I don't see a problem with assuming that a reputable brand who sends a replacement for a faulty product would make DAMN SURE the replacement product didn't have the same problems. It's incredulous that it did have repeated problems.


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## Inq (Apr 19, 2008)

I wonder how many divers coming from the smaller companies are actually tested to the depth printed on the dial. Lately, there has been an influx of dive watches that are supposed to withstand depths ranging from 1000m to 2500m. Seems these numbers are just a gimmick...

Also, I find the fact that you should perform a water test on a brand new watch advertised as 1000m WR quite dissapointing.

Cheers,
Catalin


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## nozh2002 (May 21, 2010)

My Helson Sharkdiver pass pressure test for 230 feet - does it mean it will not flood during diving less then 230 feet?
It was air pressure test - water was not involved.


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

Taucher said:


> Jean Michel, is it the right way to start a bashing campaign against Helson on nearly every dive watch forum in the world? That´s not a gentleman style and reflects negatively on your WUS reputation!
> 
> You, as the administrator of the french dive watch forum, should be more sensitive.
> 
> ...


You join today and this is what you come up with for a first post? What the *heck*?


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

I think boutique dive watch makers feel that depth rating numbers are there to show how durable the watch is in terms of build quality. It's rated to 1,000m or 2,000m so it must be built like a tank to withstand this pressure. Right??? The perception is that the watch is a mini submarine strapped to your wrist.


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

Mistalava said:


> You join today and this is what you come up with for a first post. What the *heck*?


Funny^^^


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

Taucher said:


> Jean Michel, is it the right way to start a bashing campaign against Helson on nearly every dive watch forum in the world? That´s not a gentleman style and reflects negatively on your WUS reputation!
> 
> You, as the administrator of the french dive watch forum, should be more sensitive.
> 
> ...


If I had similar problems on multiple watches from the same brand, not only would I post my experience on EVERY watch forum on the internet, I might create a few NEW forums and take out an ad in USA Today (assuming I had the funds, which I don't)!


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## Andrés (Aug 25, 2006)

Mistalava said:


> You join today and this is what you come up with for a first post. What the *heck*?


 I was thinking the exact same thing. Seems like someone came up with a fake user name...

Jean Michel is a well respected and knowledgeable member of this community. He´s not a basher and has a stellar reputation.


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## tallguy (Feb 14, 2006)

notanothercamera said:


> _I'm a noob here, but this thread really caught my eye. I do not dive, but do snorkel, sometimes diving down 8 to 10 feet. I'm in the market to add to my meager collection of dive watches and am considering Helson, DOXA, Irreantum , Marathon and Seiko.
> 
> After doing what research I can online, I usually end up contacting the individual companies to get additional info. One of the first questions I ask is "Is the watch tested and certified to ISO 6425?"
> 
> ...


Bingo! Noob you may be, but you hit the nail on the head!


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## ref3525 (Sep 4, 2009)

Tragic said:


> If I had similar problems on multiple watches from the same brand, not only would I post my experience on EVERY watch forum on the internet, I might create a few NEW forums and take out an ad in USA Today (assuming I had the funds, which I don't)!


*and start a campain on TV!*


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

jole777 said:


> It's up to Helson to resolve this issue and explain about QC,etc.


Yep, I'd very much like to hear a response from Peter.

This got me thinking about the tudor sub homage I've had on pre-order from Dan at OWC for nearly two years now. Dan's not a full time watch maker, he has a full time job as an accountant. In those two years, I've watched countless models roll out from the popular boutiques, one after another. It had me thinking that this must be frustrating to Dan, to see all these models roll out with relative speed and seeming ease. It got to the point where I didn't really care one way or another if I ever got my watch.

All the while, Dan has sent monthly e-mails out, painfully detailing every set back and every small victory. The picture he's painted of his dealings with Chinese suppliers has been extremely vivid. Ignored instructions, unauthorized substitutions, dropped deadlines, etc. It's nothing short of amazing he just didn't give up altogether. While it's taken a very, very long time I now have a renewed appreciation for all the steps Dan is going through with each and every watch. The movements are each being regulated. Each case is being pressure tested individually, each assembly being checked by Dan himself and a trusted local watchmaker to ensure everything is right. All the lead time that at once seemed excessive, now doesn't seem like such a bad idea. While it may not be the nicest or most expensive watch in my collection, I will feel pretty good about how it was built.

I think that it probably is possible to have your cake and eat it too; that it is possible to build a nice and capable watch at a price point in boutique volumes, but you have to absolutely stay on top of everything. As has been suggested, it wouldn't surprise me that part of any issue Helson may be running into is the speed and quantity that which released models are coming out.

Maybe it's time to take a step back and reevaluate. If there's a correction to be made, best make it now, make it public and have a plan to keep those customers with watches already on their wrists happy.

In the world of boutique watches, the internet giveth just as easily as the internet taketh away.


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

Email him, you may also try reading the link that the "one post new guy put up", interesting reading.


scottymac said:


> Yep, I'd very much like to hear a response from Peter.


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## Kwcsports (Oct 16, 2009)

notanothercamera said:


> _I'm a noob here, but this thread really caught my eye. I do not dive, but do snorkel, sometimes diving down 8 to 10 feet. I'm in the market to add to my meager collection of dive watches and am considering Helson, DOXA, Irreantum , Marathon and Seiko.
> 
> After doing what research I can online, I usually end up contacting the individual companies to get additional info. One of the first questions I ask is "Is the watch tested and certified to ISO 6425?"
> 
> ...


Great post and welcome to the forum. Very well said.


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## clonetrooper (May 6, 2009)

I don't think that J-M was slamming Helson, and his post showed clearly that Peter's CS works...much better then his QC though. That these watches couldn't survive a dive, and not even a deep one, is a shame...but I'm sure that Peter is working now very hard with his team to get this problem solved. Helson is not INVICTA after all.....
Thanks JM for this post....


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

lexvil said:


> Email him, you may also try reading the link that the "one post new guy put up", interesting reading.


Whoa. What the hell? If you meant the link to the google translated forum...that's very interesting. Seems all of us are putting on quite the entertaining show for the members of that board. Also popped over to the EOT dive forum, see this has just been posted there as well.

I think I'll e-mail Peter myself, as you suggested lexvil, thanks.


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## dbanal (Mar 18, 2011)

i have been a big fan of Helson's watch designs and CS. I have two Helsons in my very modest collection. This worries me somewhat. 

While I don't plan to dive at all, I would like to have the assurance that the watch depth rating is what it says it is. I still hope that there is a very good reason for this and that I can continue to enjoy peter's creations and not have to worry about QC and whatnot.


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

Yeah. For all of you defending Jean-Michel, he certainly doesn't think too much of us or WUS: 

"WUS is a farce." (Direct quote from Forum-MDP. And that's just a start.)

We're being played, and whether the story is true or not, JM is a classless asshat, IMO. :roll:


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

bakuma said:


> Yeah. For all of you defending Jean-Michel, he certainly doesn't think too much of us or WUS:
> 
> "WUS is a farce." (Direct quote from Forum-MDP. And that's just a start.)
> 
> We're being played, and whether the story is true or not, JM is a classless asshat, IMO. :roll:


What does this have to do with the watch performance issues at hand? Please enlighten us.


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

bakuma said:


> Yeah. For all of you defending Jean-Michel, he certainly doesn't think too much of us or WUS:
> 
> "WUS is a farce." (Direct quote from Forum-MDP. And that's just a start.)
> 
> We're being played, and whether the story is true or not, JM is a classless asshat, IMO. :roll:


Yeah before anyone else starts freaking out, take a few minutes to read that post over on the French forum. There's a lot more going on here, and the entertainment value of all of us freaking out about Helson clearly seems to be just as or even more important than the actual issue, if there even ever was one. They're slamming WUS, calling us idiots, and they have a big problem with "wannabe" divers.

Gonna be hard to back track on this and draw attention back to the issue of a leaky watch after all this has been posted. Nice job letting that plan blow up in your face...it's now going to be dismissed as a gripe by an obviously very angry guy and his forum cronies. Congratulations, JM...you got us. You're a _real_ diver and a _real_ class act.


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

Ok. We've got a lot of positive posts on various forums about Helson (inclu. from divers and one poster who had two Helsons pressure tested), then JM comes along (not having posted here much lately) with an a story that is based on his (and a friend's) experience with four watches, possibly from the same batch, and concludes "*when you buy from Helsonyou buy a wanade diverfar from what you can expect of a real dive watch." *(sic) Then he registers on every watch forum he can and re-posts the story. On top of that he comments on the corruption at WUS due to sponsorships, jokes about WUS posters, and in general notes how entertaining the thread over here is.

So we've got a possible small sample error, and what sounds far more like the settling of a personal grudge than a post trying to solve the issue or caution others. Hope I made that clear for you, dude.

Until Helson responds, or a few other people share their flooded watch stories, I don't think there is really enough here to condemn the brand.



Mistalava said:


> What does this have to do with the watch performance issues at hand? Please enlighten us.


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

scottymac said:


> Yeah before anyone else starts freaking out, take a few minutes to read that post over on the French forum. There's a lot more going on here, and the entertainment value of all of us freaking out about Helson clearly seems to be just as or even more important than the actual issue, if there even ever was one. They're slamming WUS, calling us idiots, and they have a big problem with "wannabe" divers.
> 
> Gonna be hard to back track on this and draw attention back to the issue of a leaky watch after all this has been posted. Nice job letting that plan blow up in your face...it's now going to be dismissed as a gripe by an obviously very angry guy and his forum cronies. Congratulations, JM...you got us. You're a _real_ diver and a _real_ class act.


But the leaky watch *is* the issue. I frown on the French just as much as any red-blooded American, just on general principle. What goes on at the French forum is exactly what I expect of them.

The point is these faux "manufacturers", (and not just Helson), make very specific performance claims on their un-supervised Chinese-manufactured watches which are comprised of a hodge-podge of parts and sources of parts to begin with. Giving the products a Teutonic sounding name and presenting them with a serious dive watch image with the assumption that the rubes will be taken in by this approach is pretty classless and duplicitous IMO. I have been saying this for a while now -- these are not "manufacturers" in any sense of the word. They exercise little to no control over their outsourced products.

I made an impulse purchase and returned a fairly well know homage/boutique watch a couple of months ago (*really* bad dial defect). Extremely nice people who were very accommodating, so I guess that qualifies as good CS. When I asked if their dive watches were individually pressure tested, the answer was an honest "I don't know". They later reported *the factory told them* samples were pressure tested. Right.

The point is, hobbyists/aficionados suddenly become "manufacturers" -- and for the most part are clueless as to what is actually going on half a world away. Not that these are not good watches, and good value, for someone who occasionally splashes around but they are representing them as serious dive watches. Want to make a bet on the WR integrity on your Chinese-cased and built 2000M?

For the average desk diver and swimmer, the products should be OK. But the general positioning of these watches is simply false, misleading and deceptive. This is the real crux of the issue here.


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

bakuma said:


> Yeah. For all of you defending Jean-Michel, he certainly doesn't think too much of us or WUS:
> 
> "WUS is a farce." (Direct quote from Forum-MDP. And that's just a start.)
> 
> We're being played, and whether the story is true or not, JM is a classless asshat, IMO. :roll:


Well this IS the acknowledged center of the known MicroBrand Universe.


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

> But the leaky watch *is* the issue.


I don't disagree. As a Helson owner I too would like to know if there's a real problem or an isolated qc issue. The problem is that since JM and crew have seen fit to turn this into a circus for their amusement, it will only make it more difficult to filter out the reality from the hearsay or assumed.


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## coleraine (Mar 12, 2011)

Was thinking about buying a Helson shark diver! Not now I'm not lol. I'd rather dive with me trusty Seiko Samurai hehe


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## bedlam (Jul 1, 2009)

I have dived once with my Shark Diver to just under 30m and it performed perfectly. 

Nonetheless, I had already thought about QC issues when considering buying a Tortuga and had been wondering how Helson Co is getting so many watches to market so quickly when I see how long and involved the process is for Jason at Halios to refine and field test their offerings before they are available. 

There are no free lunches with QC. Testing takes time and costs...but it needs to be done because nice designs alone won't save a reputation.


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## sheriffd2 (Jan 4, 2011)

scottymac said:


> I don't disagree. As a Helson owner I too would like to know if there's a real problem or an isolated qc issue. The problem is that since JM and crew have seen fit to turn this into a circus for their amusement, it will only make it more difficult to filter out the reality from the hearsay or assumed.


Great post.

My input is simply this...

If the watch I purchase is marketed as, sold as, and physically labeled as having a specific feature... It should have that feature. Period. If I buy a corvette that is marketed and sold as having a top speed of 175mph, even if I NEVER intend to see such a speed, it should absolutely be reliably capable....

If the watch says its got a sapphire crystal, the crystal should be made of sapphire. If it says stainless steel, it should be ss... If the watch says 1000M, it should keep water out to 1000M. Plain and simple. I just don't see, or accept, how this should not be true.


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## DNW (Oct 24, 2010)

I was also seriously considering the new 42mm Shark Diver. Not any more. If these were $200 watches I might be willing to chance it, but not for a $500+ watch.


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## cap10amazing (Sep 3, 2010)

No wonder they are pissing themselves laughing, some guy had a problem with his watch and you are going to condem a whole brand based on that? Ridiculous. :roll:


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## Stephs (Mar 25, 2011)

It's not a diver watch,it's a tourist watch...


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

Thanks for your valuable input. I assume you speak with some knowledge due to your being only a tourist?



Stephs said:


> It's not a diver watch,it's a tourist watch...


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## Stephs (Mar 25, 2011)

If you can't dive with this watch why buy it?Just to drink a cocktail with it near the sea ...


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

Stephs said:


> It's not a diver watch,it's a tourist watch...


lol. Here we go...


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## scottymac (Apr 26, 2006)

Stephs said:


> If you can't dive with this watch why buy it?Just to drink a cocktail with it near the sea ...


But this boutique diver...with the case that's been used by just about every micro out there...this one's ok? How can you be sure?

How's the weather in France where you are?


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## Stephs (Mar 25, 2011)

scottymac said:


> But this boutique diver...with the case that's been used by just about every micro out there...this one's ok? How can you be sure?
> 
> How's the weather in France where you are?


The weather is very good in France and in your country?


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## Mistalava (Mar 14, 2007)

Stephs said:


> If you can't dive with this watch why buy it?Just to drink a cocktail with it near the sea ...


Any watch that goes hand in hand with cocktails by the sea is a winner in my book. I think most people here are trying to engage in a meaningful dialog, even if they have differing views and opinions. You?


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## lexvil (May 2, 2008)

To me it started as more of "is" there a leaky watch? After reading the op's blog my feeling of it being a set up is cemented now, and the trolling going on is the rebar in the cement. Can I prove it? No but it's my feeling that WUS is being duped as some sort of twisted game.



Mistalava said:


> But the leaky watch *is* the issue. I frown on the French just as much as any red-blooded American, on general principle. What goes on at the French forum is exactly what I expect of them.
> 
> The point is these faux "manufacturers", (and not just Helson), make very specific performance claims on their un-supervised Chinese-manufactured watches which are comprised of a hodge-podge of parts and sources of parts to begin with. Giving the products a Teutonic sounding name and presenting them with a serious dive watch image with the assumption that the rubes will be taken in by this approach is pretty classless and duplicitous IMO. I have been saying this for a while now -- these are not "manufacturers" in any sense of the word. They exercise little to no control over their outsourced products.
> 
> ...


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## OnTimeGabe (Aug 6, 2006)

lexvil said:


> To me it started as more of "is" there a leaky watch? After reading the op's blog my feeling of it being a set up is cemented now, and the trolling going on is the rebar in the cement. Can I prove it? No but it's my feeling that WUS is being duped as some sort of twisted game.


This site has no association with Helson other than a bunch of members who own the watches, so I don't see how any of this is damaging to WUS. And nobody ever said JM is a friend of Watchuseek, at least not anymore. Anyone can read his comments elsewhere and judge them for what they're worth:

http://translate.google.de/translat...eplongee.forumrama.com/t19369-helson-la-suite

But I don't believe that means he's faked this whole episode just for kicks. Where we stand now is an out of control thread with members attacking one another, political comments, profanity, etc., so this one is closed.


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