# I found a Navy Seal letter to Luminox. Explains why and how. Interesting.



## Mystro

I was digging up facts and claims on who uses what time pieces. I came across this Navy Seal letter to Luminox.


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## stitch_paradox

What Luminox watch was Chief Engraff referring to?


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## tokyotokei

This has been round before somewhere. The quote is also used in an Department of Defense presentation on "Outside Activities" in the section "misuse of goverment position" :-d

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/defense_ethics/resource_library/2005Deskbook/TabK/2005_Outside_Activities_Robinson_Grimord.ppt( slide 17 )

I like the watch, maybe more so for knowing "the chief" may have got into trouble for liking it too b-)

TT


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## Nalu

This is Chief E's personal experience and opinion written on official letterhead. Luminox has used his endorsement very liberally (some might say unethically) and therefore I like the watch a great deal less than I would have otherwise. In fact, when I bought my first 3H-tubule watch I went through a great deal of trouble to find a non-Luminox version.


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## Mystro

_*What Luminox watch was Chief Engraff referring to?

* _The original Navy Seal watch offered by Luminox at the time. Since then the evolution of the original "Navy Seal" has improved dramatically. F-117 pilots were using the original Seal watch for bombing runs. Luminox was approached to make a pilot version of the watch. Luminox contacted "Lockheed Martin" for a licensing contract. This spawned the "Lockheed Martin" collection of pilot watches (Sr-71 Blackbird, F-117 Nighthawk, F-16 Fighting Falcon, F-22 Raptor). I think all of these watches are part of the new "EVO" series of watches that is part of Luminox merger with the Swiss watch company "_*Mondaine Watch Ltd*"_. "Evo" stands for evolution and they are one heck of a evolution from the first Seal watches.
Luminox really established them self a a lot of prestigious military-police-fire endorsements and field use.
Luminox new slogan is:

*LUMI-NOX- The watch of choice for those seeking the "Real Deal".* At this point, I think Luminox has established themself as good as any company can to make that claim.

I did not like the earlier plastic Luminox watches myself. I dont care for plastic watches. This new Evo line of Luminox watches are in a different league. They are a high quality built time piece. I am picky as hell when it comes to my time pieces and the Evo Ultimate Seal really holds up for its design and intended purpose.

I found this Luminox Story or History whatever....


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## GavH

IMO, this smacks of some pretty desperate marketing by Luminox. Not particularly responsible either, compromising 'the Chief' like that. <|


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## Mystro

I am sure Luminox would have had permission to use the endorsement. The gun and knife industry uses the same marketing techniques from military uses of their products. I find it interesting. Other than that I have no opinion either way.


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## GavH

Things must be different there than they are here in the UK. 

No member of UKSF would get away with that with their career intact. In fact, you can't even take photos inside the lines at Hereford without running the risk of being kicked out. 

So, my reading of this letter was the Master Chief sending his personal praise to Luminox, not realising they would use it in this way. 

On the other hand, like I said, things might be quite different in the States.


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## Broker

GavH said:


> Things must be different there than they are here in the UK.
> 
> No member of UKSF would get away with that with their career intact. In fact, you can't even take photos inside the lines at Hereford without running the risk of being kicked out.
> 
> So, my reading of this letter was the Master Chief sending his personal praise to Luminox, not realising they would use it in this way.
> 
> On the other hand, like I said, things might be quite different in the States.


Actually things aren't much different. I would have hoped that Luminox asked for approval to use it as marketing. Much as people here would like to be asked for permission when their photos are "snarked". Sadly I don't think it happened.


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## Crusader

Personally I am quite happy with the very similar Traser P6500, which is largely identical to, and manufactured by the same company which made, the original P650 for Stoker and Yale ... a watch which has been used by the thousands by US military units.


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## Nalu

My impression is that the Chief ("Chief" meaning he's probably an E-7, a relatively low rank for SEALs) wrote the endorsement knowing that it would be used, but ignorant of the rules about using one's position in such a manner. Looking at the wording of his letter, it's pretty clear they had a relationship - possibly even a financial one.

Gav, things aren't different. Have a look at the link TT provided. When I was in the community, things were different as no one really knew who the units were, what they did and so no one cared about such commercial endorsements. The suppliers were happy to be providing us products which met our requirements and honored to do so. Then the books, movies and other such nonsense started and now everyone makes something out of black nylon that is "Special" :roll:

The good news is that there is a new echelon of silent warriors who go on doing their business without any fanfare.

Mystro, the more you quote company advertising, the more you weaken their case ;-)


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## Mystro

_Mystro, the more you quote company advertising, the more you weaken their case.

_I didn't know Luminox was on trial?I was just offering up the information I found_. _Luminox has nothing to prove either way. Their motives are clearly to sell watches. I am sure Locheed Martin would have reviewed Luminox thoroughly before giving their endorsment. I dont understand the motive to scrutinize or be cynical to the details of their initial Navy Seal connection?:-s They printed a endorsment letter to clarify they are not making false claims. Of course Luminox is going to use their buisness history with the Seals to sell watches, thats the American way. I am sure they are proud of every orginizations that chose to use their product. I dont get any impression of grand standing from any of their advertising. 
They are just explaning their history of their company and are proud of all the organizations that are using their products.


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## Doug507

Luminox makes some very nice (albiet overpriced) watches - they are indeed tough. I gotta give their SEAL marketing a big :rodekaart. 

IF there were indeed any such thing as a "SEAL watch," it would have to be the DW-6600 G-Shock.


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## narwhal

GavH said:


> IMO, this smacks of some pretty desperate marketing by Luminox. Not particularly responsible either, compromising 'the Chief' like that. <|


Wow, the guy with an Omega avatar disparaging a company for "desperate marketing".

I wonder what Cindy Crawford thinks about that? ;-)

http://www.omegawatches.com/index.php?id=125


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## narwhal

Nalu said:


> In fact, when I bought my first 3H-tubule watch I went through a great deal of trouble to find a non-Luminox version.


I did the same thing, for basically the same reasons.


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## thomlad54

I've been a NYC fireman for almost 24 years, from fireman to captain in rank and I've never heard the FDNY endorse any watch, much less offering to firemen. The ad for Luminox mentions the FDNY. I think that it's bogus regarding the FDNY

Thom


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## Broker

The "Chief" apparently has been the subject of a PowerPoint presentation on military "ethics" for use of a better word.

http://www.amc.army.mil/amc/command_counsel/ethics/Outside Activities.ppt#296,1,Slide 1

Same PowerPoint on the Department of Defense website:

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/defense_et...esentations/6ECC_OutsideActivitiesLuciano.pdf

It's an absolute no no. Colin can probably shed more light on this as I'm 15 years removed from service.


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## narwhal

Broker said:


> The "Chief" apparently has been the subject of a PowerPoint presentation on military "ethics" for use of a better word.
> 
> http://www.amc.army.mil/amc/command_counsel/ethics/Outside Activities.ppt#296,1,Slide 1
> 
> Same PowerPoint on the Department of Defense website:
> 
> http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/defense_et...esentations/6ECC_OutsideActivitiesLuciano.pdf
> 
> It's an absolute no no. Colin can probably shed more light on this as I'm 15 years removed from service.


Uh, yeah, that's the link in post #3 by TT and what much of the discussion here has been about (including Colin's posts).


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## AAWATCHES

I read this thread with great interest, I am sure there is truth on both sides of this issue. But advertising is well advertising. I own a couple of Luminox watches and enjoy them both.


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## HercDriver

*Just an aside...you never want to be "that guy".*

The one famous (or infamous) for wrecking a plane, doing a prohibited maneuver, screwing over a buddy, or even being in a PowerPoint on restricted behavior. You know it's bad when they say "Don't pull a 'Smith'", referring to a screw-up by your name.

This is one of those things you learn pretty quickly in the military.;-)
/threadjack


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## Nalu

Mystro said:


> _Mystro, the more you quote company advertising, the more you weaken their case.
> 
> _I didn't know Luminox was on trial?


All advertising claims deserve scrutiny, particularly those in the watch world when you're a collector and always when you're a collector of mil-issue watches. Re-posting company literature/claims isn't very illuminating (sorry).

There are many things in the Luminox "literature" which don't ring true, starting with their Latin: light = LUMEN and night = NOX NOCTIS, continuing with the fact that I've never seen a SEAL (or SF or CIA operator) wear a Luminox watch and ending with the fact that UDTs were retired in 1982, so who are the watches being bought by?

The only watch I've ever seen issued to a US SOF unit or other governmental agency is a Suunto. A mate of mine in country with his issued watch (his previous issued watch donated for my use):


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## Mystro

_The only watch I've ever seen issued to a US SOF unit or other governmental agency is a Suunto.

_On another forum a service man stated the opposite. The watch he has seen more of was Luminox with the G-shock being a second.This was out at godforsaken part of the CA desert.
I guess it depends on who you talk toand where they are stationed at.I have several Suuntos and am on the Suunto forum a lot. I know a lot of Vectors are floating around in different branches of the military. Used primary for the quick navigation features.Newer models are getting popular as well.


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## Nalu

Mystro said:


> _The only watch I've ever seen issued to a US SOF unit or other governmental agency is a Suunto.
> 
> _On another forum *a service man stated the opposite*. The watch he has seen more of was Luminox with the G-shock being a second.This was out at godforsaken part of the CA desert.
> I guess it depends on who you talk toand where they are stationed at.


Are you sure? There is a difference between an _issued_ watch and a _worn_ watch. I never said I hadn't seen anyone wearing a Luminox or a G-Shock - far from it. In fact a rugby mate who was in a Special Troops Bn wanted to buy a Luminox for his deployment to Iraq, but didn't want all the SEAL and logo nonsense. He ended up with a BM and a Traser.

BTW, I've lived 3+ years in that remote CA desert. Among regular Army troops, I'd say _most_ wore whatever CBP is for sale at the PX/Clothing Sales, some officers and NCOs who wanted something nicer wore Suuntos. The Vector was very popular then, and I nearly bought one but my mate gave me one of his castoffs (he's been issued a few in his time). I can't recall ever seeing a Luminox, but I'm sure they were out there. G-Shocks outnumber them by a fair distance.


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## Billy

This information is a bit dated (several years old) and I do know that Suuntos are now included in the GSA list; the following watches have (at least in the past) been ordered by the DoD:










This explains in part the frequent sighting of cheap, non-mil watches. They may in fact be issued in many cases. There has not been in the past nor current list any watch manufactured by Luminox.

Hope this is of interest - kind regards,

Billy


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## Mystro

Its tough to argue with the G-shock. They are tough and cheap and easy to find and replace.


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## Mystro

I was thinking about the Navy Seal crest on the back of the Luminox Seal watches. Wouldn't the official Navy Seal logo be copy written much the way Lockheed Martin is protected?
Any other watches have permission to have the Seal crest legally used on them?

Case in point, MTM has a "Seal" watch but does not have the official Navy Seal crest on the case lid.


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## 2manywatchez

Way out of my league posting in this forum, but this thread was very interesting. To my (arguably limited) knowledge, there's really no such thing as "issued" among operators. As I understand it, they can pretty much source and purchase whatever they feel they need to do the job. 

This is the case with scopes and other "after market" equipment for firearms enhancement; my guess is the same would go for watches and other field equipment. The fact that a unit may all wear the same may not be because of issue, but rather the fact that it's what the guys on the team feel works.

As an aside, among those in the CIA and other intelligence agencies, a high premium is placed on consumer availability. The last thing they want is to be wearing the watch, using the pen, dialing the phone -- whatever -- that gets 'issued'. It's a give-away in the field and just not done.


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## Nalu

Mystro said:


> Wouldn't the official Navy Seal logo be copy written much the way Lockheed Martin is protected?


Not necessarily, and this is a constant problem in all military units. We have more important things to do than pursue trademark or copyright violations. This is why every militaria shop sells t-shirts, ball caps, etc. with everybody and anybody's logo or unit insignia on them. Any search of ePrey will turn up all kinds of unauthorised items. The only folks who've been successful in protecting their property are those units that have associations, some of whom do have the resources and time to pursue such violations.


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## Nalu

2manywatchez said:


> Way out of my league posting in this forum, but this thread was very interesting. To my (arguably limited) knowledge, there's really no such thing as "issued" among operators. As I understand it, they can pretty much source and purchase whatever they feel they need to do the job.
> 
> This is the case with scopes and other "after market" equipment for firearms enhancement; my guess is the same would go for watches and other field equipment. The fact that a unit may all wear the same may not be because of issue, but rather the fact that it's what the guys on the team feel works.
> 
> As an aside, among those in the CIA and other intelligence agencies, a high premium is placed on consumer availability. The last thing they want is to be wearing the watch, using the pen, dialing the phone -- whatever -- that gets 'issued'. It's a give-away in the field and just not done.


While some units (more all the time) are able to order off the shelf or even custom items, they are still issued items and government property. E.g., a sniper doesn't have to buy his own scope and may be able to get his unit to buy him his preferred piece of kit, but it's still government property and issued by the unit to the individual. In fact when I left the community, the bill from my unit 'special euipment issue' section was significant whereas CIF charged me nothing.

As for the rest, you'd be surprised ;-)


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## TimeOnTarget

I resisted the urge to reply to this post when I first read it. I knew the second that I read the letter that it was complete, utter, unadulterated BS!!! 

How did I know? Years of doing this kind of work for a living. The entire tone of the letter did not sound right. 

I did not want to get into it on the forum, but you can't believe a fraction of what you read on the internet.


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## 2manywatchez

Nalu said:


> While some units (more all the time) are able to order off the shelf or even custom items, they are still issued items and government property. E.g., a sniper doesn't have to buy his own scope and may be able to get his unit to buy him his preferred piece of kit, but it's still government property and issued by the unit to the individual. In fact when I left the community, the bill from my unit 'special euipment issue' section was significant whereas CIF charged me nothing.


Got it. When I used the term issued, I was thinking it implied "mandatory" as in "this is what we bought, so you'll take it and like it." Clearly, "issued" refers to anything that the gov buys its employees, even if the equipment is spec'd by individual request. Thanks for the clarification. :-!


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## Broker

I have to say I've really enjoyed the posts in this thread. Very informative, polite and thought provoking. It's a breath of fresh air. Probably the Army component here. :-d


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## Brian D.

*There is a member here who is a current member(some will probably know who I'm talking about) and he's said that he knows of not ONE SINGLE team member who will wear the watch due to the silly SEAL logo. And right now the current watch issued to East Coast teams are the Casio PAG-40.*


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## Peahi

Brian D. said:


> *There is a member here who is a current member(some will probably know who I'm talking about) and he's said that he knows of not ONE SINGLE team member who will wear the watch due to the silly SEAL logo. And right now the current watch issued to East Coast teams are the Casio PAG-40.*


The luminox marketing teams seem to be especially persuasive at this time of the year. Watching the BUDS training on discovery channel, the only guys wearing watches were the instructors who had casios of all sorts. We cannot fault luminox for capitalizing on a great marketing schtick, they have to stick with what they have. Casio has tons of pictures of soldiers, sailors, and airmen wearing their products out and about, all around the world, as FREE advertising. The product sells itself. 
I would tend to believe light use/fashion watches with unit logos/insignia are marketed towards the desk based adventurer. Casio/pathfinder seems to rule.



































Look at what these two seals are wearing. These two probably bought their watches at the Navy Exchange on base.


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## Doug507

Lotsa DW-6600's in there...


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## Mystro

Cool shots. Any one not wearing a digital watch? Casio's are nice but I prefer Suunto for my ABC watch.


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## frank19989

my two cents the NYPD doesn't have an official issue watch. Most POs wore cheap watches, because if ithey got busted the department would only reimburse up to $50. I saw plenty of Casios.


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## 2manywatchez

Peahi said:


>


Umm. I'd wear even this watch if this guy told me to:










!!!!


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## Mystro

That pic would make one hell of a recruiting poster.
Dude with the Casio on looks like he doesnt have a choice.:-d


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## 2500M_Sub

Nalu said:


> My impression is that the Chief ("Chief" meaning he's probably an E-7, a relatively low rank for SEALs) wrote the endorsement knowing that it would be used, but ignorant of the rules about using one's position in such a manner. Looking at the wording of his letter, it's pretty clear they had a relationship - possibly even a financial one.
> 
> Gav, things aren't different. Have a look at the link TT provided. When I was in the community, things were different as no one really knew who the units were, what they did and so no one cared about such commercial endorsements. The suppliers were happy to be providing us products which met our requirements and honored to do so. Then the books, movies and other such nonsense started and now everyone makes something out of black nylon that is "Special" :roll:
> 
> The good news is that there is a new echelon of silent warriors who go on doing their business without any fanfare.
> 
> Mystro, the more you quote company advertising, the more you weaken their case ;-)


Are you serious, E-7 is a low rank for the Seals!? E-7 is nothing to sneeze at. There are both enlisted and Officer ranks and I assure you E-7 is not low. Enlisted Rank only goes to E-9 and although I dont know the exact makeup of officers to enlisted in the Seals ranks I would bet the enlisted out number the Officer ranks. Many a great warrior retire at E-7! On the subject of the letter I wouldnt be surprised if it was fake!

Regards,

Ren


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## Nalu

Thanks Ren. After 29 years in the Army I'm pretty familiar with rank ;-)

The letter is real. If you follow the link on ethics in government, you'll see that the Chief's situation is used as an example of what not to do. As such, it's unlikely that the government would use a fake letter to demonstrate the lesson.

I haven't worked with SEALs in a while, but when I did you started as an E-5 and made E-6 by the time you finished your training and were an operator. The majority of guys I worked with were SCPOs and MCPOs, although I'll be the first to say not many people, myself included, wore rank. Rank comes very fast in USSOCOM ;-) Anyone in a position to test, evaluate and buy OTS items would be a MCPO, a WO or a field grade commissioned officer.


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## 2500M_Sub

Well, thank you for your service. I spent some time in the Marines althought not near as long :-!. I would have thought they took guys earlier especially since the Navy doesnt focus on combat in basic etc. If I remember correctly Army Special Forces likes guys who have been in a while, but at least you come in with experience being a grunt etc. Dont know what MOS in the Navy could give a guy good experience in combat arts besides being a Seal? Guess they figure if the guys are a little more mature they may tough it out and complete the course cause their not coming straight from moms house. 


Best Regards,

Ren


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## Jim Malone

Not beeing an American i did spend considerable time in a foreign Special intervention unit. The first thing we learned was to blend in with the locals. The watches we wore were mostly G-shocks. We wore them in civilian clothing, Nomex jumpsuits and neoprene.
The tought of a specialised unit wearing an item that identifies himself as a GSG9/GIGN/1st SFOD-D/Sayeret Matkal operator is rediculous. Can you imaging walking around as a member of a "hunter-killer" team in Afghanistan dressed in local clothing with a watch that says "US Navy Seals"? How many locals wear a Luminox in say Jemen? Even if it doesn't target you as a foreign operator it will make you a target because it attracts value due to it's possible value.
Some of these members could buy them for R&R but not for duty use IMHO.
It's just a marketing scheme. Operators like "sleeper" equipment and cars


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## Oracle

2500M_Sub said:


> Dont know what MOS in the Navy could give a guy good experience in combat arts besides being a Seal?


I spoke to a couple of SEALS when I was in the Navy. They were both Boatswain's Mates. I'm not sure why, because I'm pretty sure you can go to the school from any classification as long as you qualify.


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