# My 12-4-P-6 Zenith Sporto



## Mowgli

Didn't find much about this calibre. What is diffence between it and the cal.106 ?
I got it about 2 months ago and it runs like it is new. +3 sec on my wrist / -3 sec resting an the nightstand overnight. 
I simply fell inlove with it on first-sight.
I think, judging by the serial, it would have been made in the early '40's.























































If you have further info about it, please feel free to post them as well your impressions on it.


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## dbl_

Mowgli said:


> ...I think, judging by the serial, it would have been made in the early '40's.
> If you have further info about it, please feel free to post them as well your impressions on it.


Cal. 12-4-P-6 manufactured between 1945 and 1947, total amount 3600 movements.
They are very reliable movements.


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## dbl_

Mowgli said:


> Didn't find much about this calibre. What is diffence between it and the cal.106 ?
> ....
> 
> If you have further info about it, please feel free to post them as well your impressions on it.


Calibre 12-4-P-6 (12 ligne) is larger than 106 (10,5 ligne).
Follow this link for further info:

http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/zenhitsite/page7.html

Wojtek


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## ngdesign

Beautiful Sporto you got there, Jensop got one with a cal.126.
https://www.watchuseek.com/showpost.php?p=2466289&postcount=8
I might be getting myself one next year too (thats if the economy is treating me well)


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## jasoncc

Hello Folks:

I just picked up a Zenith Sporto today that looks exactly like the one in the original post. I can't get the caseback open, and don't want to force it. Can I assume that it has the same calibre in it as the watch in the original post? Also, the serial # is: 8548555 Any guesses as to the date of manufacture? Or a ballpark estimate on the value of the watch? I found one on the web that someone is selling for $450. Thanks in advance!


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## Mowgli

I have no new information about it.
I mailed the Zenith people a while ago but haven't got any feedback yet.
I'm absolutely sure the movement of your watch is the same one.
The "back" serial on mine is 8542981 so they're pretty close.
I can't wait to see pictures of your watch ! Post them as fast as you can, please !


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## jasoncc

Here's some links to the same watch that I just picked up recently at an estate sale. I just got the back opened at the jeweler today, and it's in immaculate condition.


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https://flic.kr/p/4599377423


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https://flic.kr/p/4599995442


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https://flic.kr/p/4599377257


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https://flic.kr/p/4599376975

Thanks for looking!

Jason


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## Hartmut Richter

The Cal. 12-4 series is definitely very similar to the Cal. 126 series. The 126 series is the larger version of the 106 series (10''' vs. 12'''). The 126 series was made from 1947-1956 in 512 000 pieces, the Cal. 12-4 series from 1934-1953 in 222 000 pieces.

If you look at the Zenith calibre lists, the 12-4 series has "Rayville" in the comments section as the original maker. In case anyone is not familiar with this maker, the name is a corruption of "Villeret" which is where the company was located. It has now moved to Le Brassus and changed its name back to what it originally was: Blancpain.

On the basis of this evidence, I would suspect that Zenith obtained Blancpain wrist watch calibres at a time when they were mainly a pocket watch maker (which is what they were prior to WWII). Later, they acquired the rights to these or copied them when the patent had expired or based their own calibres on them - the most likely option since the movements are not absolutely identical (if you look at the bridge shape).

Hartmut Richter


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## dbl_

Hartmut Richter said:


> (...)The 126 series was made from 1947-1956 in 512 000 pieces, the Cal. 12-4 series from 1934-1953 in 222 000 pieces.
> (...)


Hartmut, I've found set of data on Zenith movements:

http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/zenhitsite/page7.html

According to this table Cal. 12-4 was manufactured between 1945 and 1947 and total production was 21200.

I suspect this table doe's not include pre WW II production (fact that I wasn't aware before your post).

BTW - could you please estimate manufacturing date of 12-4-P movement with S/N 3557185 ?


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## Hartmut Richter

A serial number of 3.5 million would be early to mid forties. Zenith would be able to give you a precise date. My dates, etc. are from the new Zenith book which I suspect has more complete information than the table in your link. For example, the Cal. 71 (133.8 with date) was made in 6000 pieces according to the table and 14000 pieces according to the book.

Hartmut Richter


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## dbl_

Hartmut Richter said:


> A serial number of 3.5 million would be early to mid forties. Zenith would be able to give you a precise date. My dates, etc. are from the new Zenith book which I suspect has more complete information than the table in your link. For example, the Cal. 71 (133.8 with date) was made in 6000 pieces according to the table and 14000 pieces according to the book.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thx, always appreciate your knowledge and help.


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## Mowgli

Hi guys !
I thought you might like to see new pics. 
Here are some pics with _my precious_ :-d after his "doctor appointment".


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## georges zaslavsky

pretty nice watch, wear it in good health


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## Hans61

A very nice and typical Zenith.
Here you can see some dates:

3395383 Cal 12.4-P vom 17.03.1942
3430992 Cal 12.4-6 vom 10.12.1942
3439310 Cal 12.4-6 vom 26.01.1943
3464606 Cal 106-P vom 30.08.1943
3492453 Cal 12.4-6 vom 20.01.1944
3545119 Cal 12.4-P-50 vom 15.02.1946


3627407 Cal 12.4-P-6 Mowgli's watch


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## Hartmut Richter

Nice job! New lume on the hands, I see.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

Excellent! Wear it in good health!
Dan


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## daniel_hk

Nice Sporto!

Here is mine:


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## Salva

Hello and good day from Spain
Forgive my bad English. I hope it's good enough for me to understand.

Looking for something else yesterday, I found this watch, that not even remember who did.

Would be very grateful to the partners if the photos you can give me as many details of this piece. It works perfectly, as you can see the state of preservation, is really good and the machinery is very beautiful.

Thanks to all

Health and Wellness

salva


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## Hartmut Richter

The watch certainly seems to be in excellent condition. The serial number points to the early thirties as a manufacturing date.

Hartmut Richter


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## Salva

Hartmut Richter said:


> The watch certainly seems to be in excellent condition. The serial number points to the early thirties as a manufacturing date.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Can any partner, accurately identify the size and give me any information about the watches. I want to sell it and put it for sale on Ebay I document it well. Year callibe, manufacturing date, number of parts produced .........

This clock fu expert watchmaker revised vintage 1 year ago.

How I can ask for it???

Health and Wellness


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## D N Ravenna

Salva said:


> Can any partner, accurately identify the size and give me any information about the watches. I want to sell it and put it for sale on Ebay I document it well. Year callibe, manufacturing date, number of parts produced .........
> 
> This clock fu expert watchmaker revised vintage 1 year ago.
> 
> How I can ask for it???
> 
> Health and Wellness


Hi Salva!
It is the rules of the forum that we not give a price. Sorry, but those are the rules.

It does look like a 12-4-p-6 movement, but someone else may want to clarify that. It is a fine looking watch you have. You should wear it!

Good luck,
Dan


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## Hans61

Hi ET.
Sorry, but I have to say no.
Because no beveled edge and no shockprotection it is without "P" and "6".

Cal 12.4-P-6








Cal 12.4


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## Salva

Hello

I do not understand what you mean, sorry.

Can anyone clarify the matter, I am more confused than at the beginning

regards
Deshacer cambios


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## Hartmut Richter

The "P" in the movement code stands for a bevelled edge. If the movement is exactly coin shaped, it lacks the P, if the coin is thinner at the edge than in the middle, you have a bevelled edge. The "6" in the movement code means that the movement has shock proofing on the balance. That means that the covering stone on the balance wheel holding isn't screwed down but instead held by a special kind of spring that allows it to give way a little if the watch is jarred. That way, you avoid or at least lessen the risk of damage.

Hartmut Richter


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## dbl_

Hartmut Richter said:


> The "P" in the movement code stands for a bevelled edge. If the movement is exactly coin shaped, it lacks the P, if the coin is thinner at the edge than in the middle, you have a bevelled edge.


However balance cock is not bevelled even in "P" movements.


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## 194312

Is this one also a cal. 12-4-P-6?
How many pieces of the P-6 were built?
1940s Vintage Zenith Military DH Wristwatch | eBay

cheers,
Tom



Hartmut Richter said:


> The Cal. 12-4 series is definitely very similar to the Cal. 126 series. The 126 series is the larger version of the 106 series (10''' vs. 12'''). The 126 series was made from 1947-1956 in 512 000 pieces, the Cal. 12-4 series from 1934-1953 in 222 000 pieces.
> 
> If you look at the Zenith calibre lists, the 12-4 series has "Rayville" in the comments section as the original maker. In case anyone is not familiar with this maker, the name is a corruption of "Villeret" which is where the company was located. It has now moved to Le Brassus and changed its name back to what it originally was: Blancpain.
> 
> On the basis of this evidence, I would suspect that Zenith obtained Blancpain wrist watch calibres at a time when they were mainly a pocket watch maker (which is what they were prior to WWII). Later, they acquired the rights to these or copied them when the patent had expired or based their own calibres on them - the most likely option since the movements are not absolutely identical (if you look at the bridge shape).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

dbl_ said:


> However balance cock is not bevelled even in "P" movements.


There are always exceptions to the rule. The bevel is mostly for aesthetics (sp?). Attractive movement either way.

Cheers!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter

I would ask you to keep your questions related to your watch in your thread - it makes it easier to follow up the discussion related to your piece. I will reply to your question there.

Hartmut Richter


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## osscah

Hello

I want to show you my new piece which was worn by my grandpa. This watch was waiting for 20 years in drawer after i found it. The look is worn-out, works great but 1 minute slower every day. I would appreciate every information about my Zenit sporto.

Thank you

back case s.n. 8541890
12-4P-6 s.n. 3626586


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## Stewart H

osscah. The numbers look spot on. My 12-4-P-6 has a case number of 8489381 and a movement number of 3571977. It is not a Sporto but it is a nice watch.









My Sporto is a Cal. 120


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## sempervivens

Hello osscah,

it is one of the first Zenith Sporto's. It dates to ca. 1947. The case is chromium plated but the movement has shock protection.



osscah said:


> Hello
> 
> I would appreciate every information about my Zenit sporto.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> back case s.n. 8541890
> 12-4P-6 s.n. 3626586
> 
> View attachment 852845


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