# What's harder: Sinn's tegimented steel vs. Damasko's ice hardened?



## Greensweeps (Jun 28, 2010)

And does it make a difference in real world usage?

Trying to decide between Sinn 856 and Damasko DA36

Thanks!


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Good question.....and tossing in Diashield, and other hardened and/or coated titanium watch cases.


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## GreatScott (Nov 19, 2016)

If you check them out you will see that Sinn is harder but it is only skin deep. I have seen more scratches on Sinn than I have on damasko, I think because once it is penetrated there is no stopping the depth it can go whereas damasko is equally hardened so it puts up more total resistance. Both are really good so go with what you like.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

As general information, Seiko, Citizen and Casio also have hard coated titanium cases.


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## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

My ex-gf's heart is the hardest and coldest thing of all. Now if only they could make watches out of it lol


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## Greensweeps (Jun 28, 2010)

Toothbras said:


> My ex-gf's heart is the hardest and coldest thing of all. Now if only they could make watches out of it lol


*She ice hardened, I call her Damasko*


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## dinkerson (Mar 2, 2014)

Owned both of these models previously. I wouldn't have any concerns about the ruggedness and scratch resistance of either. In theory the sinn will withstand surface scratches better, but could dent or 'egg shell' more easily if hit hard on something. In practice, they should both stand up to any regular wear admirably. Go for whichever floats your boat more aesthetically.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

Tegimented Sinn cases are in the ~1200 Vickers range (though I've read 1500 in some places). That puts it in the ~72 HRC range. As mentioned, that's a surface layer, on the order of 20-30 microns thick; underneath it'll be softer.

Ice-hardened Damasko cases are in the ~800 Vickers range (~64 HRC). Hardened completely through, not a surface layer.

Both companies use a PVD coating in the 2000+ Vickers range for their black cases.

From all reports, both hardened options are very scratch resistant. Though given contact with the right (wrong?) material, it is still possible to scratch either option.


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## Dive watch lover (May 7, 2012)

In addition to everything said so far, some more deciding points [that I went thru myself].

I am disappointed with the lume on my Damasko DA46. Sinn has better lume [I ended up getting a 556, too]. But the Damasko is a better deal on a strap vs 856. But the Damasko bracelet is big bucks compared to the Sinn's. On bracelet, they are probably close in price. The Sinn also has Argon gas and the copper sulfide crystal, but I'm not sure how much that really matters in daily use. But because of that, the Sinn is more expensive to service.

I'm sure the build on the 856 is excellent, if my non-hardened 556 is any indication, but the DA46 crown is a joy to use, as is the bezel. Damasko uses their hardened steel on ALL the bits and pieces [crown, bezel, pushers for a chrono] so it gives you great confidence when you need to use them. Threading in of the crown is EXCELLENT, very solid. But so is my 556....

Bottom line, buy the design you like, bearing in mind price [on the strap] and lume differences.


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## Greensweeps (Jun 28, 2010)

Dive watch lover said:


> I am disappointed with the lume on my Damasko DA46. Sinn has better lume [I ended up getting a 556, too]. But the Damasko is a better deal on a strap vs 856. But the Damasko bracelet is big bucks compared to the Sinn's. On bracelet, they are probably close in price. The Sinn also has Argon gas and the copper sulfide crystal, but I'm not sure how much that really matters in daily use. But because of that, the Sinn is more expensive to service.
> 
> I'm sure the build on the 856 is excellent, if my non-hardened 556 is any indication, but the DA46 crown is a joy to use, as is the bezel. Damasko uses their hardened steel on ALL the bits and pieces [crown, bezel, pushers for a chrono] so it gives you great confidence when you need to use them. Threading in of the crown is EXCELLENT, very solid. But so is my 556....


Thanks for the input, much appreciated! I've been thinking about these exact points myself.

I think the Damasko case is a winner, it really is awesome. But on all other accounts it is really close. It's a tough decision. The Damasko bracelet is probably the greatest bracelet ever, but it is super expensive as well. Let's see what happens... Thank you!


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## Dre (Feb 29, 2008)

I went through much of the same debate myself when deciding between a Sinn 857 and a Damasko DA44. Ultimately I chose the Damasko because at the end of it, it's a rock star case & bracelet with a normal ETA 2824 that any watch maker can service. Sure, anybody can service the Sinn as well, but to get it done right (replace the argon & dehumidifying capsule), it's gotta go to Sinn or one of their service centers. That factor wasn't the biggest one, but it was a factor in my decision making process.


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## Greensweeps (Jun 28, 2010)

Dre said:


> Ultimately I chose the Damasko because at the end of it, it's a rock star case & bracelet with a normal ETA 2824 that any watch maker can service.


Exactly my thoughts.


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## TRUE LIBERTY (Apr 13, 2013)

Can someone tell me the hardness of Sinns steel without the tegiment process done?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

TRUE LIBERTY said:


> Can someone tell me the hardness of Sinns steel without the tegiment process done?


What steel are you talking about ? 316L , submarine steel ? There's no „Sinn" steel.

For the 316L it is

Hardness, Brinell	146	146 
Hardness, Knoop	166	166 Converted from Brinell hardness
Hardness, Rockwell B 79 79 
Hardness, Vickers	152	152 Converted from Brinell hardness


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

stuffler said:


> What steel are you talking about ? 316L , submarine steel ? There's no „Sinn" steel.
> 
> For the 316L it is
> 
> ...


Maybe means ThyssenKrupp 1.3964 (reported to be what Sinn uses as 'submarine steel')


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## TRUE LIBERTY (Apr 13, 2013)

stuffler said:


> What steel are you talking about ? 316L , submarine steel ? There's no „Sinn" steel.
> 
> For the 316L it is
> 
> ...


Apologies, the steel used in the U1, etc. I can google a lot of conversations with that steel compared to Damasko with it being tegimented but not to much about it's hardness and durability by itself or compared to other steels like 316 or Damasko steel.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

What does Sinn exactly use ?

1.3914 X2CrNiMnMoNNb21-15-7-3
1.3951 X2CrNiMoN22-15
1.3952 X2CrNiMoN18-14-3
1.3964 X2CrNiMnMoNNb21-16-5-3
1.3974 X2CrNiMnMoNNb23-17-6-3

AISI 316L X2CrNiMo17-12-2 is said to have a hardeness of about 220 HV, U-boat steel is about +50%. = +/- 300 hv. Surface hardening (kolsterizing) can get it up to 1200 HV (316L) and 1500 HV (U-boat steel).

Mean value is about 300 HV without any hardening.


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## TRUE LIBERTY (Apr 13, 2013)

I appreciate this but let’s see if we can put it in terms this simple man can understand. From what I understand and what I’ve read here 316 stainless steel has 250 vickers strength. Damasko I’ve read is between 700 and 800 vickers. And the tegimented Steel is 1500 vickers. So my question is where does the plane sub steel fall in that line up. And finally is the steel Damasko using on for there new diver the same as Sinn is using? Thanks again!


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Not sure why you did not understand my post.

Anyway, here we go once more.

Not treated sub steel is about 300 HV.
316L is about 220 HV, variations possible from 160 to 230.
Sinn‘s surface hardened (tegimented) stainless steel is 1200 HV, Sinn‘s tegimented U-boat steel is 1500 HV.
Damasko‘s (through and through) ice hardened cases are 760 HV, Damasko‘s surface hardened submarine steel is 1500 HV.

To find out whether Sinn and Damasko are using identical U-Boat-steel you need to contact Damasko and Sinn. However, since there aren’t much differences in U-Boat steel it’s fair to say that Sinn and Damasko use the same type of surface hardened German Submarine steel.
Damasko however use two different submarine steels for producing their cases and crowns.


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## TRUE LIBERTY (Apr 13, 2013)

Thanks I’ve read that website so many times and just never realized they ice hardened the sub steel from Damaskos diver. Thought it was just plain sub steel. This information sold it for me and if they have any left will purchase tonight. Appreciate your patience with me!


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

TRUE LIBERTY said:


> Thanks I've read that website so many times and just never realized they ice hardened the sub steel from Damaskos diver. Thought it was just plain sub steel. This information sold it for me and if they have any left will purchase tonight. Appreciate your patience with me!


The Damasko DSub1 and DSub2 steel is not (repeat n o t) ice-hardened. Only martensitic steel is. Since submarine steel is austenitic steel and can't be heat treated it is „only" surface hardened. Same valid for Sinn's submarine steel.

....as already written



> Damasko's (through and through) ice hardened cases are 760 HV, *Damasko's surface hardened submarine steel is 1500 HV.*


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## obsidian (Feb 13, 2006)

Greensweeps said:


> And does it make a difference in real-world usage?
> 
> Trying to decide between Sinn 856 and Damasko DA36
> 
> Thanks!


I know everyone is arguing about specs and numbers and not really giving you a practical answer to your question. 
Basically, Tegimented is harder at the surface than Ice-Hardened and will be more scratch-resistant; Ice-Hardened is harder throughout, unlike Tegimented, and will be more dent resistant. 
That's it. What are you more concerned about, scratches or dents?

The reality is "Hardened Steel" is really just a cool gimmick that's may not be that amazing in the real world.
There are a lot of things you will encounter in this world, depending on your work environment or lifestyle that are harder than either of these steels and will damage them.
Besides diamond jewelry (obviously), there are plenty of industrial carbide ceramics that are almost as hard as diamond, that will damage these steels, and you can unexpectedly encounter them in your daily life. 
For instance, there's a thread somewhere on these forums where people were complaining about their Sinn tegimented steel bracelets getting scratches even though they were only doing office work. Turns out their desk table tops were probably made of a Formica-like material. Formica has embedded ceramic chips to resist scratches and damage to its suface. These chips are harder than the steels being discussed and will scratch them.

If you scratch or dent the 316L steel normally used in watches, you can take it to any competent watchmaker or jeweler and they can polish/buff out most superficial damage for a reasonable price. If you manage to scratch or dent a hardened steel watch, you are screwed. The material is so hard even the manufacturer will not be able to repair the damage.

So the answer is: just get the watch which you find the most attractive, and consider the hardening just a cool feature.

My experience: I have a Sinn 756 Diapal that's about 10 years old. It has almost none of the micro-scratches on the bracelet and clasp that you would expect from a steel watch this old (it does have a few). The bezel has about the same number of micro-dents you would expect from a regular 10 year old steel tool watch.


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## Zoogleboogle (Oct 27, 2013)

obsidian said:


> If you manage to scratch or dent a hardened steel watch, you are screwed. The material is so hard even the manufacturer will not be able to repair the damage.


Same reason I go for softer steels in my knives instead of the "super steels" - easy, quick repair.

I have a 556i I bought that had a bracelet that was pretty scuffed up. A few minutes with the right tools and it looks brand new and re-brushed. I know I can do this whenever needed in a relatively painless way.


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## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

Dre said:


> I went through much of the same debate myself when deciding between a Sinn 857 and a Damasko DA44. Ultimately I chose the Damasko because at the end of it, it's a rock star case & bracelet with a normal ETA 2824 that any watch maker can service. Sure, anybody can service the Sinn as well, but to get it done right (replace the argon & dehumidifying capsule), it's gotta go to Sinn or one of their service centers. That factor wasn't the biggest one, but it was a factor in my decision making process.


This is the reason why I go for standard movements as well


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## m577a2 (Jun 16, 2015)

Does anyone have pics of damaged Sinns or Damaskos?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

m577a2 said:


> Does anyone have pics of damaged Sinns or Damaskos?


Googled ?


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## m577a2 (Jun 16, 2015)

stuffler said:


> Googled ?
> 
> View attachment 13170153


Thanks Mike, I was hoping for personal pics and stories from owners here on WUS.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

m577a2 said:


> Thanks Mike, I was hoping for personal pics and stories from owners here on WUS.


Which would show up with a google search as well.


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## warsh (May 22, 2017)

My counsel is not to lose sight of the aesthetics as you deeply consider case hardness. I own a Sinn and a Damasko, and while both are great looking, for some reason my Sinn gets 10X wrist time to my Damasko. Your preference may be different, of course, but both are great, bullet proof watches, so then it comes down to how it looks and feels. Or at least, it does for me.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mgp123 (May 23, 2016)

stuffler said:


> Not sure why you did not understand my post.
> 
> Anyway, here we go once more.
> 
> ...


You're full of useful information it seems, but you really couldn't tell how someone wouldn't understand your previous post?



stuffler said:


> What does Sinn exactly use ?
> 
> 1.3914 X2CrNiMnMoNNb21-15-7-3
> 1.3951 X2CrNiMoN22-15
> ...


To many people (including myself), that looks like a completely alien language! :-d Thank you for the useful information though. It is appreciated.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

mgp123 said:


> You're full of useful information it seems, but you really couldn't tell how someone wouldn't understand your previous post?
> 
> To many people (including myself), that looks like a completely alien language! :-d Thank you for the useful information though. It is appreciated.


Sorry, we had to ban you.


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## Dr4 (Dec 29, 2010)

Great read but I would go with Sinn if price is equitable for models.


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## Waqar Akram (Jul 27, 2020)

Toothbras said:


> My ex-gf's heart is the hardest and coldest thing of all. Now if only they could make watches out of it lol


I hope by now (in ten years time) you have found one will a softer steel (I mean heart), and you take special care of her, so she doesn't get hurt, akin to any normal steel 316l nowadays.


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## Tyn (Oct 16, 2012)

I went down this rabbit hole years ago and went with Damasko. Ultimately though, I was so focused on the technology and the idea of having a 'scratch-proof' watch, i forgot to consider things like aesthetics and comfort. I ended up with a piece that was, despite all its technical brilliance, a bit boring to wear, sorely lacking in lume, and very uncomfortable on wrist.

My advice is consider the whole package; not just the hardness.


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