# Why is IWC losing so much value pre-owned?



## samipasazade

I am considering buying a Portuguese Chronograph. One important consideration for me is how i can sell it later on Ebay. I cannot collect watches so I need to buy and sell watches in order to try different brands regularly. Recently, I purchased a Tag Carrera 1887 discounted at $3650 and sold it on ebay for less than $2500 in a few months. The retail price is $4800. That was a terrible deal for me. Now, I had known about marketing issues with Tag Heuer. For example being sold in Macy's is definitely hurting the appeal and value. Also being produced in so many quantities. 
IWC portuguese chrono on the other hand is being sold around $5k on ebay pre-owned (in fact seen high $4k for some 2012 models). That is a $7900 retail priced watch. That is about a 35-40% discount. Still better than the almost 50% discount i experienced for my Tag but not even close to Panerai, the watch that many believe is overpriced/overhyped for its use of simplistic movements and narrow range of designs. I cant see a simple panerai for less than $4000-$4500 on ebay for watches sold around $5000 on ad's. Another example is Omega Planet Ocean. The pre-owned value is much better than IWC although it is much more heavily marketed.

Can anyone shed some light on the reasons?


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## Watchbreath

It just comes down to, what's hot and what's not.


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## DragonDan

Don't confuse retail for what a watch is actually selling for. It doesn't matter if you are buying cars, houses or watches - if you buy brand-new (unless it's a top-shelf Patek), you will not see a decent return on your investment. This is especially true if you are flipping the watch only after a few months.


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## JP Chestnut

Current IWC is starting to change watch styles frequently and IMO chase fads. That results in a large amount of consumers wanting the newest thing. Not surprisingly, this kills prices for older models. Rolex and Patek are the kings of resale, and both companies take an evolution, not revolution approach to improvements. This shows up in their resale values.


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## christianj

I was also recently thinking about this topic. I picked up the white dialed Aquatimer on the stainless bracelet from my AD last year and have thought about letting it go again to reinvest in a different watch since I've only worn it a few times.. Used prices for the Aquatimer seem to have really fallen lately and I think I might just hang on to the watch instead of letting it go at close to 50% off the MSRP.


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## tomsimac

Most resale dealers will tell you they buy at 20-25% MSRP 
Look at the brand, each has followers
A Tutima is lucky to get 25% even if mint on top watches, 50% on mid level. A Baume Mercier might get 20% 
Problem is IWC is heavily copied but should be a grail. I see the Portugese design everywhere including the Sea Gull 
Tough business to buy and resell on eBay especially. If you buy right, you can always break even or make money. But it can take luck as well. Sometimes you need to do a trade to get back in the black. I speak from experience and lucky to not yet suffered a loss. Came close...


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## Monocrom

Why?

Might have something to do with IWC's extremely poor customer service.


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## samipasazade

wow, these answers were all very insightful and sophisticated. Thank you.Unfortunately i cannot buy a patek. I don't like the fact that there is nothing subtle about rolex, at least as a brand name or perception although some designs maybe more subtle. I prefer a watch that not everyone knows. Iwc fits that. The problem is, i love the design of the portuguese but I know i will want to change at some point. It will be at least a year or two though. I think I will have to land a nicely priced one.


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## JP Chestnut

samipasazade said:


> wow, these answers were all very insightful and sophisticated. Thank you.Unfortunately i cannot buy a patek. I don't like the fact that there is nothing subtle about rolex, at least as a brand name or perception although some designs maybe more subtle. I prefer a watch that not everyone knows. Iwc fits that. The problem is, i love the design of the portuguese but I know i will want to change at some point. It will be at least a year or two though. I think I will have to land a nicely priced one.


I agree about the Rolex brand, though not *some* of the watches, being a bit too "on the radar". If you want an IWC portuguese then you should get one. They're, for the most part, very classic looking (if a bit too large). Either buy one new and shoot for 25% off, or buy one used off the forums. In either case, your loss upon re-sale shouldn't be too bad.


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## Rjlaero1

I don't agree that IWC values tank.

The mid level Portuguese with no date does rather well on the pre-owned market and the values are pretty steady.

IWC had a couple of price increases over the last 5 years. Many sellers list new retail prices for old watches to make their watches look like a better deal than they really are.

If a watch has a list of $7500 and most are being advertised for 4000-4500 used, that's pretty solid in my book.

Not many folks pay retail. If you can buy a new one for 15-20% off, then the second hand market is going be another 15-20% off that. Maybe a little more.

Portofino, Portuguese, and the 7 day watches all are decent investments for higher end watches. 

I still hope to own an IWC one day. But I am a but turned off by customer service issues, and a lack of good timekeeping on some of the higher end models as reported by owners.


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## MHe225

It also has to do with how quickly you trade the watch .... I've seen people sell their new watches after a few months and they seem to get hit pretty hard. Mind you, their sales adds always list MSRP, never what they actually paid when purchasing the watch.

I bought a new IWC Portuguese Chronograph in spring of 2003. Upgrading to the IWC Portuguese Automatic (7 day) in the summer of 2010, I got on trade exactly what I had paid 7 years prior. Given that the watch was (over)due for a service, I could even argue that I got more.
Granted, there is the NPV - Net Present Value or "money of the day" argument lurking in the background, the hypothetical gains if investing that money (nobody talks about losses up to 100%) so my personal experience is that IWC's actually hold its value pretty well.

Just offering a different perspective / insight. As always, YVMV.

RonB


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## Cybotron

Monocrom said:


> Why?
> 
> Might have something to do with IWC's extremely poor customer service.


Is it really that bad? I haven't heard much unless I need to do a search.


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## Monocrom

Yes.

A search will reveal detailed problems. A brand such as IWC should be much better in that regard than they are.


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## Watchbreath

I alway quick to bring up the "NPV", within that time frame, the USD lost close to 40% of its purchasing 
power.


MHe225 said:


> It also has to do with how quickly you trade the watch .... I've seen people sell their new watches after a few months and they seem to get hit pretty hard. Mind you, their sales adds always list MSRP, never what they actually paid when purchasing the watch.
> 
> I bought a new IWC Portuguese Chronograph in spring of 2003. Upgrading to the IWC Portuguese Automatic (7 day) in the summer of 2010, I got on trade exactly what I had paid 7 years prior. Given that the watch was (over)due for a service, I could even argue that I got more.
> Granted, there is the NPV - Net Present Value or "money of the day" argument lurking in the background, the hypothetical gains if investing that money (nobody talks about losses up to 100%) so my personal experience is that IWC's actually hold its value pretty well.
> 
> Just offering a different perspective / insight. As always, YVMV.
> 
> RonB


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## HR F1

Cybotron said:


> Is it really that bad? I haven't heard much unless I need to do a search.


From my personal experience, IWC customer service has been excellent; through email or over the phone, they've been courteous and quick to address any questions/inquiries and fulfilling my parts purchases (straps, bracelet links etc.)

Overall, my customer service experiences with Richemont brands in general have been stellar and I've been very happy with the service I've received and the representatives I've communicated with. One of my JLCs recently returned from an extensive service and repair in Le Sentier and the results were phenomenal! My IWCs won't be due for service any time soon, but I have no concerns about sending it in when the time comes and I wouldn't expect any less than my JLC experience.


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## Neptukker

When you bougt five years ago a Portuguese Chrono you could make a profit. Due to exhance rates prices of new ones increasead a lot, so the pre-owned increassed also.
Always know you can't predict the future. Buy one if you have the money and want the watch. If you want an investement: buy stocks of Facebook..... (also unpredictable)


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## gbkelsey

samipasazade said:


> Can anyone shed some light on the reasons?


Alot more value is being lost across the board on pre-owned watches because of fakes. 
Alot of fakes out there on all brands of watches, the best of which can even fool many experts. People are increasingly become suspicious of any watch forsale other then through a official suppliers. 
Many people avoiding the bay fullstop and with the amount of fakes on there, (and the bay not doing much more then a token effort about the problem) you can't really blame them.


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## Rjlaero1

Fine watches will continue to get more expensive.

If you buy an IWC now, 5 years from
now, you'll have a watch that has gone through a couple price increases. 

So the longer you hold onto it, the better off you are.

Flipping it in 6 months is not a good judge of resale value.


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## MHe225

Watchbreath said:


> I alway quick to bring up the "NPV", within that time frame, the USD lost close to 40% of its purchasing power.


Are you saying that the cumulative inflation over that time-period was (is) 40% ?? That would explain why I have less $$ for fun stuff these days as my salary hasn't increased by 40% over the same period, so my spending power is eroding then .....

RonB


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## Watchbreath

:-( Yep, what was once known as a 'Texas Ten' ($100), really seems like a 10 these days.


MHe225 said:


> Are you saying that the cumulative inflation over that time-period was (is) 40% ?? That would explain why I have less $$ for fun stuff these days as my salary hasn't increased by 40% over the same period, so my spending power is eroding then .....
> 
> RonB


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## JP Chestnut

Rjlaero1 said:


> Fine watches will continue to get more expensive.
> 
> _*If you buy an IWC now, 5 years from
> now, you'll have a watch that has gone through a couple price increases. *_
> 
> So the longer you hold onto it, the better off you are.
> 
> Flipping it in 6 months is not a good judge of resale value.


That would be true about Rolex. However, with IWC I think you'd be more likely to have a watch that is one to two generations "old".


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## Rjlaero1

Watch makers don't change that much from their core design philosophy. 

IWC hasn't done anything earth shattering in terms of movements or designs in the past 10 years.


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## gyang333

JP Chestnut said:


> That would be true about Rolex. However, with IWC I think you'd be more likely to have a watch that is one to two generations "old".


It really depends on the particular IWC model does it not? I'm not as familiar with the other lines, but in the Portuguese lineup, most of the models have been around for many years correct? I don't think a Portuguese Perpetual Calendar will look dated or "old" in 5 years, or even the Portuguese Chronograph, that mode's been around for what, 10 years now, save for a few revisions?


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## Chris-John

I think you've got to figure... And this applies to everything, not just watches... You can't sell it second hand for more than the wholesale price. I think there's a lot of reasons for this. One is that there would be a lot of temptation for official dealers to sell their stock on the Internet as mint as-new, if they could turn a few extra bucks selling their new stock that way.


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## anonymousmoose

samipasazade said:


> Can anyone shed some light on the reasons?


Most IWC are mass produced products, even the limited edition. Everything mass produced will come down in price unless it a very in-demand item out-of-stock (like when they release those Sony gaming PS3's, everyone wants one and people actually make money selling the ones they bought a week prior).

IWC is not as popular as a Rolex or OMEGA. Hence why the pre-owned market keeps their value more retained. Lets face it, how many people who are not into watches know what an IWC is over an OMEGA/ROLEX?

The tips for buying a watch which keeps its value are:

When buying new, get as much discount as possible. Selling a lightly used one with warranty left is a plus for a buyer. 
Buy pre-owned as cheap as possible. Very obvious yet worth mentioning. If you buy below the pre-owned market value, you can actually make money (I've done it a few times with OMEGA). 
Buy a watch which is popular with the majority. Bigger customer base when you go to sell it. 

Obviously I don't know you, so I ask; why do you flip watches? Its it because you like the change or you want to upgrade to something better and your slowly getting to your holy-grail watch?


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## Watchbreath

Do you recall when the rage for the SS Daytona was at its peak?


Chris-John said:


> I think you've got to figure... And this applies to everything, not just watches... You can't sell it second hand for more than the wholesale price. I think there's a lot of reasons for this. One is that there would be a lot of temptation for official dealers to sell their stock on the Internet as mint as-new, if they could turn a few extra bucks selling their new stock that way.


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## Chris-John

Watchbreath said:


> Do you recall when the rage for the SS Daytona was at its peak?


 My comment doesn't apply when there is a shortage. Shortages are not normal in this industrial age when most companies want to just shift as much product as possible.


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## Watchbreath

That so called "shortage" was produced by Rolex.

Got to add, high end customers didn't have to wait those 2 years. There was usually 
'one in the back' for them.


Chris-John said:


> My comment doesn't apply when there is a shortage. Shortages are not normal in this industrial age when most companies want to just shift as much product as possible.


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## Chris-John

Watchbreath said:


> That so called "shortage" was produced by Rolex.
> 
> Got to add, high end customers didn't have to wait those 2 years. There was usually
> 'one in the back' for them.


Well, any shortage is a dance between the supply and demand. I'm sure the demand side also had something to do with the shortage. Sometimes shortages are deliberate, that's for sure. But it's not the common situation.


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## Rjlaero1

IWC is still a "top ten" watch in my book for resale & good market presence. In that 5-15k price category, you have a solid history with the company and they have a classic look to them. I'd buy what you like and enjoy it.


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## otaking241

A couple thoughts:

The high-end watch market seems pretty analogous to high-end cars: you lose ~40% of the value the minute you drive it off the lot. This means if you're looking to resell quickly and often, you're not doing yourself a favor by buying new. But you can buy "like new" pre-owned watch from a private party and get most of your money back when you resell. I've made money like this on one or two occasions. As another poster pointed out, this is easier when you're talking about recognizable, in-demand models.

Until recently, IWC seems to have been less restrictive than other brands in their pricing/discount policies. I bought my 3568-01 for almost 25% off retail from a reputable grey-market dealer back in January. Since then IWC seem to have followed Omega and other brands by tightening up this discrepancy, but I think the damage to the perceived value of the brand will take a while to fade. Basically, if I know I can get a new, grey-market IWC for 75-80% of MSRP, I'm not likely to go for a used one for marginally less, even if it's in perfect condition. TAG and B&R are similarly situated and have similarly large discrepancies with their MSRP and used-market values.

IWC does seem to suffer this problem more than Omega or Rolex, but until recently IWC wasn't marketing itself as aggressively as these brands historically have. Since their acquisition by Richemont they've made pushes for broader brand-name recognition, including getting themselves featured in the latest Bourne film. I expect that as their profile continues to increase the resale value will follow. 

Among IWC watches, the Portuguese does seem to do fairly well. If you watch the forums you should be able to pick one up for less than $5K and imagine you wouldn't have any trouble reselling it for a similar price 6-12 months later.


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## slashd0t

I think it all depends on the value as well... Watches like the BP seem to hold value, while others drop like a rock.. Same with Rolex.. Rolex sport models do well (timeless) while the bling watches not so much..

Please show me a grey market dealer with 80% discounts on IWC please 

I think the reason companies like IWC/Omega etc are moving to a boutique model is to keep discounting at a minimum as well as control the inventory from landing in grey market dealer hands.. 

If they succeed here, I suspect that will keep resale value high.. I also think moving to more in-house movements will help as well.

I think now is a smart time to buy iwc as it is a lot of value for the watch (especially in the highend) when compared to a lot of the higher end brands..

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## otaking241

slashd0t said:


> Please show me a grey market dealer with 80% discounts on IWC please


Just to clarify: "75-80% of MSRP" = 20-25% discount from MSRP


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## slashd0t

otaking241 said:


> Just to clarify: "75-80% of MSRP" = 20-25% discount from MSRP


haha oops.. Read that wrong


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## craniotes

On average IWCs hold their value as well as most brands, excluding Rolex, Panerai and Patek Philippe (three outliers that buck the trend). Take a look at JLC, AP, VC, GO, Blancpain, GP, UN, Zenith, Breitling and Omega, and yes, you'll see that all of them are readily discounted at ADs and that their used prices are significantly less than MSRP.

Now, some brands, like Omega, have made a concerted effort to pull out of ADs in favor of their own boutique network in an effort to minimize discounting, which was seen as hurting the value of the brand, but even so, they have a long way to go before they can touch Rolex, which has created an amazingly effective marketing campaign/mythology around their watches. This is just the nature of the beast. If you're truly concerned about depreciation, then buy used and let someone else take the hit. 

See how easy that was?

Regards,
Adam

PS - IWC's perpetual calendars hold their value exceptionally well, so you know, you could always buy one of those if you're worried about depreciation. ;-)

PPS - Oh, and just to be clear, IWC does not "mass produce" their watches. Their annual production numbers are measured in the tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands (as is the case with Omega and Rolex, the later of which is kissing one million per annum).


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## Triton9

craniotes said:


> On average IWCs hold their value as well as most brands, excluding Rolex, Panerai and Patek Philippe (three outliers that buck the trend). Take a look at JLC, AP, VC, GO, Blancpain, GP, UN, Zenith, Breitling and Omega, and yes, you'll see that all of them are readily discounted at ADs and that their used prices are significantly less than MSRP.
> 
> Now, some brands, like Omega, have made a concerted effort to pull out of ADs in favor of their own boutique network in an effort to minimize discounting, which was seen as hurting the value of the brand, but even so, they have a long way to go before they can touch Rolex, which has created an amazingly effective marketing campaign/mythology around their watches. This is just the nature of the beast. If you're truly concerned about depreciation, then buy used and let someone else take the hit.
> 
> See how easy that was?
> 
> Regards,
> Adam


I think Omega are doing well... Their resale value is getting better. SMP 2254 resale value has gone up. Now its impossible to get a good condition 2254 with full set for $1400. Few years ago , this price was still common.


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## craniotes

Triton9 said:


> I think Omega are doing well... Their resale value is getting better. SMP 2254 resale value has gone up. Now its impossible to get a good condition 2254 with full set for $1400. Few years ago , this price was still common.


It may be getting better, but they've still got a long way to go before they're even within spitting distance of Rolex, which is their goal. Also, with respect to the 2254, a couple of years ago your dollar went a lot farther, no? Hell, back then you could buy an Ingenieur 3227-01 for under $3500 and now you can't find them for less than $4300 (if you can find them in the first place).

Of course, when we're talking about discontinued models that have a "cult" status, such as the 2254 (the best of the Seamasters, IMO) and the 3227-01 (the best of the Inges, IMO), we do have to take into account that folks might be willing to spend a bit more to put one on their wrist. A standard Bond or titanium 3227 won''t command the same prices.

Regards,
Adam


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