# What makes Patek No 1



## Beyond_Time

Hi Guys

This is a question in my mind for a long time.
I still didn't get it. I looked at collection from other high end brands 
Lange AP VC Breguet Blancpain JLC (other HE brands).
Their watches all have great craftmanship
and innovation. They all have their own unique characters. In this sense they should all 
be regarded on the same level. I don't see PP looks better than other HE brands. I don't see
PP watches are finished better than other HE brands. I don't see or hear PP is more reliable than other HE brands. Then why is PP widely regarded as the No 1 or king of watchmaking? 
I think PP VC Lange AP Breguet JLC F Journe Parmigiani... are all worth No 1 status. Please advise. Thanks


----------



## Watchbreath

Words that a lot around here like to use, history, heritage, retention of value ect. ect. With Patek, it's all thru and 
it's been that way for a looong time. Unlike some of the others.


----------



## Beyond_Time

History Heritage and retention of value??
VC AP Lange Breguet are all great in these areas. 
if not better than PP. There must be some areas PP does 
better than other top brands so to make PP worthy No.1.


----------



## mleok

Beyond_Time said:


> History Heritage and retention of value??
> VC AP Lange Breguet are all great in these areas.
> if not better than PP. There must be some areas PP does
> better than other top brands so to make PP worthy No.1.


PP unlike Lange, Breguet, and VC remains an independent watchmaker. AP is also independent, but I have to say that the endless array of limited edition Royal Oak Offshores does cheapen the brand in my mind.


----------



## v76

All of their histories (except AP and Lange to some extent) have been "re-fettled" by their new owners. Patek Philippe has remained independent and under the same ownership (Stern family) since the 1930s.

I'd say AP has an even more continuous link to its past (the founding families still own majority stake), but as someone else says, their "Limited/Special Editions" have cheapened the brand.

Have you ever listened to the chime of a Patek Philippe Minute Repeater? I will dare you to find more mellifluous tones emanating from any other watch (brand) outside an F.P. Journe. Also, they still make some of the most complex and unique mechanical complications for their watches (even today!).

Under a loupe (under high magnification) I can think of only A. Lange and Sohne watches with a better finish. Patek Philippe has had a continuous history of mechanical innovation, I can think of only Seiko and JLC who hold more patents in mechanical watchmaking technology. They also have a rich history in chronometry competitions (especially pocket watches), their movements are not just meant to look pretty. With the Patek Philippe Seal, they now have the strictest inhouse standards for mechanical timekeeping (+3 to -2s/day for regular watches and +2 to -1s/day for tourbillons).



Beyond_Time said:


> History Heritage and retention of value??
> VC AP Lange Breguet are all great in these areas.
> if not better than PP. There must be some areas PP does
> better than other top brands so to make PP worthy No.1.


----------



## Spit161

v76 said:


> Have you ever listened to the chime of a Patek Philippe Minute Repeater? I will dare you to find more mellifluous tones emanating from any other watch (brand) outside an F.P. Journe.


+1. Simply amazing sound.

cheers.


----------



## BenL

v76 said:


> All of their histories (except AP and Lange to some extent) have been "re-fettled" by their new owners. Patek Philippe has remained independent and under the same ownership (Stern family) since the 1930s.
> 
> I'd say AP has an even more continuous link to its past (the founding families still own majority stake), but as someone else says, their "Limited/Special Editions" have cheapened the brand.
> 
> Have you ever listened to the chime of a Patek Philippe Minute Repeater? I will dare you to find more mellifluous tones emanating from any other watch (brand) outside an F.P. Journe. Also, they still make some of the most complex and unique mechanical complications for their watches (even today!).
> 
> Under a loupe (under high magnification) I can think of only A. Lange and Sohne watches with a better finish. Patek Philippe has had a continuous history of mechanical innovation, I can think of only Seiko and JLC who hold more patents in mechanical watchmaking technology. They also have a rich history in chronometry competitions (especially pocket watches), their movements are not just meant to look pretty. With the Patek Philippe Seal, they now have the strictest inhouse standards for mechanical timekeeping (+3 to -2s/day for regular watches and +2 to -1s/day for tourbillons).


Well said.


----------



## Beyond_Time

v76 said:


> All of their histories (except AP and Lange to some extent) have been "re-fettled" by their new owners. Patek Philippe has remained independent and under the same ownership (Stern family) since the 1930s.
> 
> I'd say AP has an even more continuous link to its past (the founding families still own majority stake), but as someone else says, their "Limited/Special Editions" have cheapened the brand.
> 
> Have you ever listened to the chime of a Patek Philippe Minute Repeater? I will dare you to find more mellifluous tones emanating from any other watch (brand) outside an F.P. Journe. Also, they still make some of the most complex and unique mechanical complications for their watches (even today!).
> 
> Under a loupe (under high magnification) I can think of only A. Lange and Sohne watches with a better finish. Patek Philippe has had a continuous history of mechanical innovation, I can think of only Seiko and JLC who hold more patents in mechanical watchmaking technology. They also have a rich history in chronometry competitions (especially pocket watches), their movements are not just meant to look pretty. With the Patek Philippe Seal, they now have the strictest inhouse standards for mechanical timekeeping (+3 to -2s/day for regular watches and +2 to -1s/day for tourbillons).


Personally I own a patek 5127 in WG. I love the beautiful sound from the rotor. This is 
the only thing I found patek better than other brands. The movement 324SC has a PP seal but runs about +4 seconds/day. I have no complaints. but a little unhappy about it not within -3 to +2 range. Thank you for all the opinions.


----------



## celter

I don´t consider PP number 1. Maybe they are number 1 of the Swiss manufacturers with a certain production number. But if you look at the finishing of a PP movement compared to a f.ex. Philippe Dufour, the difference is striking, and not in PPs favour. 
I consider Lange as the number one "relatively high volume" manufacturer. But they are not a swiss company.


----------



## Stensbjerg

To me PP is no way near number one

VC is a head if we are talking history with (what I belive) is a longer and better one
Lange is a head if we are talking mekanik for ex are PP today using a chemical polishing as many cheaper brands where Lange use real hand polish.
(there is nothing wrong with thats polish as longe as you don't take the prices PP do)

One of my watch friend thats talks with some really serious people in the industry have been told that today PP really living a lot on the name
so to me Lange and VC are at the top today with a small advantage to Lange.


----------



## Watchbreath

Well, there's kinda a price gap between Dufour and Patek.


celter said:


> I don´t consider PP number 1. Maybe they are number 1 of the Swiss manufacturers with a certain production number. But if you look at the finishing of a PP movement compared to a f.ex. Philippe Dufour, the difference is striking, and not in PPs favour.
> I consider Lange as the number one "relatively high volume" manufacturer. But they are not a swiss company.


----------



## Frodo

As a JlC and Rolex fan, I've never really understood the PP fascination, although I find them beautiful.
That was until I visited the PP museum in Geneva last fall.
Oh my god! It was like a religious revelation!
Now a Calatrava 5296G is my grail...


----------



## Ananda

celter said:


> I consider Lange as the number one "relatively high volume" manufacturer. But they are not a swiss company.


Me too.


----------



## saintsman

Now this is hearsay and I've no real idea, but a watchmaker turned salesman told me that PP have a poor reputation with regard to reliability.

To be No 1, I would expect reliability to come near the top of the requirements.

Anyone with experience of high end failures?


----------



## v76

This is purely anecdotal (like your statement), but my dad still has his Patek (he's had it for over 25 years, had it serviced about a couple of times), still runs at less than +5s/day. The salesman/watch-pimp that he's close to swears by Patek Philippe and wears a gold Calatrava which is almost 40 years old.



saintsman said:


> Now this is hearsay and I've no real idea, but a watchmaker turned salesman told me that PP have a poor reputation with regard to reliability.
> 
> To be No 1, I would expect reliability to come near the top of the requirements.
> 
> Anyone with experience of high end failures?


----------



## Janne

Personally,. I regard ALS as number 1. OK, they do not have much history to speak of, but the watches are imo far nicer than PP (or JLC plus the rest).

PP make some nice watches, but they have some ugly ones too. And, they use Quartz movements ( "made by PP" - ??) in several models. Those models are still really expensive.

The only ugly part of a ALS is the 3/4 bridge. It covers way too much of the beautyful movement. 

If ALS started making them in S/s I would be a customer.


----------



## mleok

saintsman said:


> Now this is hearsay and I've no real idea, but a watchmaker turned salesman told me that PP have a poor reputation with regard to reliability.


Ultra thin dress watch movements are probably not as rugged as the movements in a Rolex submariner, or an ETA movement, but you probably shouldn't be playing golf or tennis with a Patek Calatrava in any case.


----------



## Janne

mleok said:


> Ultra thin dress watch movements are probably not as rugged as the movements in a Rolex submariner, or an ETA movement, but you probably shouldn't be playing golf or tennis with a Patek Calatrava in any case.


Should be OK if you are a rightie and you have the watch strapped to your left wrist...
(like most of us)

I do not think thinness or cost (ETA vs PP/other inhouse) influences the ruggedness. Design does. 
It is not like the high end manufacturers are flooded by repairs of broken movements.


----------



## watchhound55

Janne said:


> I do not think thinness .... influences the ruggedness.


It absolutely does. Thicker bridges and plates are less likely to bend or break under stress. Of course a well designed movement will be better than a slipshod one, but if everything is otherwise equal in quality then thicker is more rugged without a doubt.


----------



## v76

The JLC 839/849 family is one of the thinnest manual wind calibers available (1.85mm thick). I don't think I've ever seen any watchmaker complain about its frailty before ... on the other hand, I have only received comments about how well designed and engineered that movement is. Never heard of a bridge or plate failure for that movement, either.



watchhound55 said:


> It absolutely does. Thicker bridges and plates are less likely to bend or break under stress. Of course a well designed movement will be better than a slipshod one, but if everything is otherwise equal in quality then thicker is more rugged without a doubt.


----------



## Janne

Never heard of a plate or a bridge to bend or break.
Parts made from thinner (= lighter) material excert less force on the pivot points etc on sudden D-forces.


----------



## Tick Talk

Frodo said:


> I've never really understood the PP fascination, although I find them beautiful.
> That was until I visited the PP museum in Geneva last fall.
> Oh my god! It was like a religious revelation!


I hear ya brother! An amazing place that cannot help but excite interest in the brand. The Vacheron Constantin Maison is nearby and also worth a visit, but not quite on the scale of the Patek Museum.


----------



## v76

Janne, I have heard of bridge warpage on early iterations of the Piaget 9P caliber. I suspect they had made that movement way too thin initially (1.3mm) and finally settled on 1.45mm. I know a few watchmakers who refuse to work on the early versions of the 9P.



Janne said:


> Never heard of a plate or a bridge to bend or break.
> Parts made from thinner (= lighter) material excert less force on the pivot points etc on sudden D-forces.


----------



## watchhound55

v76 said:


> Janne, I have heard of bridge warpage on early iterations of the Piaget 9P caliber. I suspect they had made that movement way too thin initially (1.3mm) and finally settled on 1.45mm. I know a few watchmakers who refuse to work on the early versions of the 9P.


Same with the first Concord Deliriums and some other ultra-thins in the 60's and 70's like the La Salle and even one AP movement.


----------



## Janne

v76 said:


> Janne, I have heard of bridge warpage on early iterations of the Piaget 9P caliber. I suspect they had made that movement way too thin initially (1.3mm) and finally settled on 1.45mm. I know a few watchmakers who refuse to work on the early versions of the 9P.





watchhound55 said:


> Same with the first Concord Deliriums and some other ultra-thins in the 60's and 70's like the La Salle and even one AP movement.


Thanks for that good info. Those bridges must have been foil thin...


----------



## Tyrtle

mleok said:


> PP unlike Lange, Breguet, and VC remains an independent watchmaker. AP is also independent, but I have to say that the endless array of limited edition Royal Oak Offshores does cheapen the brand in my mind.


If the limited edition Royal Oaks cheapen AP, then what do the Quartz Calatrava's do for PP?

Frankly, PP is not the indisputable #1. They are top tier. Which brand is #1 depends on how one chooses to play the "my brand is better because..." game of circular arguments. As my point about quartz Calatravas shows, it is just as easy to find a way to disqualify PP as #1 as it is to disqualify Breguet, Lange, AP, VC, etc. For example, if you want to defend your favorite brand against PP loyalists, try these arguments:

"No brand that that mades quartz knockoffs of its iconic watches deserves to be called the best watchmaker in the world" 
or 
"Mixing quartz models cheapens the heritage and prestige of the watches (Calatrava) as well as the brand of PP."
and on and on and on...

Put another way, there is no one objective set of standards that can rule out all of PP's competitor's as #1 that don't impugn PP in some way as well. Hence, there is no indisputable #1 brand.


----------



## v76

When quartz technology was first adopted it was considered "high end", much more so than mechanical watches. Have a look into how much the really early quartz watches cost. The Swiss watch industry has a really short memory in that regard 

It's the marketing and advertising juggernaut that gives mechanical watches their so-called "sheen" (and, this is coming from an unabashed admirer of all things mechanical). I wonder if you'll call Grand Seiko's HEQ (or even better, some of Credor's one-off creations) offerings "low rent" ;-)

It is also often forgotten that Patek Philippe had a couple of the earliest patents out for quartz technology in the 1940s (Seiko got to production first followed by GP). As far as I know, Patek has two quartz calibers in production E 15 and E 23-250. If you look at the finish of the movement plates, bridges and wheel trains under a loupe, they are just as well finished as their mechanical counterparts. However, if you ask whether the amount they ask for their quartz watches is justified ... well, that's an altogether different story.

I do however agree that the concept of ranking watch brands is pretty silly and is probably just an inflammatory thread started by the OP to get strong reactions from the contributors.



Tyrtle said:


> If the limited edition Royal Oaks cheapen AP, then what do the Quartz Calatrava's do for PP?
> 
> Frankly, PP is not the indisputable #1. They are top tier. Which brand is #1 depends on how one chooses to play the "my brand is better because..." game of circular arguments. As my point about quartz Calatravas shows, it is just as easy to find a way to disqualify PP as #1 as it is to disqualify Breguet, Lange, AP, VC, etc. For example, if you want to defend your favorite brand against PP loyalists, try these arguments:
> 
> "No brand that that mades quartz knockoffs of its iconic watches deserves to be called the best watchmaker in the world"
> or
> "Mixing quartz models cheapens the heritage and prestige of the watches (Calatrava) as well as the brand of PP."
> and on and on and on...
> 
> Put another way, there is no one objective set of standards that can rule out all of PP's competitor's as #1 that don't impugn PP in some way as well. Hence, there is no indisputable #1 brand.


----------



## Tyrtle

v76 said:


> When quartz technology was first adopted it was considered "high end", much more so than mechanical watches. Have a look into how much the really early quartz watches cost. The Swiss watch industry has a really short memory in that regard
> 
> It's the marketing and advertising juggernaut that gives mechanical watches their so-called "sheen" (and, this is coming from an unabashed admirer of all things mechanical). I wonder if you'll call Grand Seiko's HEQ (or even better, some of Credor's one-off creations) offerings "low rent" ;-)
> 
> It is also often forgotten that Patek Philippe had a couple of the earliest patents out for quartz technology in the 1940s (Seiko got to production first followed by GP). As far as I know, Patek has two quartz calibers in production E 15 and E 23-250. If you look at the finish of the movement plates, bridges and wheel trains under a loupe, they are just as well finished as their mechanical counterparts. However, if you ask whether the amount they ask for their quartz watches is justified ... well, that's an altogether different story.
> 
> I do however agree that the concept of ranking watch brands is pretty silly and is probably just an inflammatory thread started by the OP to get strong reactions from the contributors.


Thanks, that demonstrates my point exactly. Based on the standards you just presented, you are comparing PP to Seiko. Yet, many PP fans would call comparing PP to Seiko heresy.

It all comes down to the standards one tries to use to define the #1 watch brand. Pick the right standards and you end up comparing PP to Seiko.

Thus, PP vs. VC vs. AL vs. Breguet vs. AP is just a circular argument based on selectively choosen standards. That being said, I do think it is valid to talk about "tiers" of brands. But even that is not clear cut.


----------



## mleok

Tyrtle said:


> If the limited edition Royal Oaks cheapen AP, then what do the Quartz Calatrava's do for PP?


I don't think you can really compare the quartz experiment with the Patek Calatrava to the ongoing and relentless monstrosities which are the limited edition Royal Oak Offshores.


----------



## budhudson

Being a JLC fan (amongst others) i have often asked myself this question as well

I have a friend who let me use his PP for a few days (around house nothing serious) to see what i thought

Sure the fit and finish is excellent and top notch. So it should be at that price. But then again so are my JLCs

To wear one gives you an 'elevated feeling' that you are experiencing the rolls royce of the watch world (generally accepted by most but argued by the rest (myself included))

Inside they are beautifully made (like other top end manufacturers). The cases are typical of their time but proven 'classics' in shape and design

I am of the opinion that if you own one and genuinely feel you have the best of the best then thats great. Good health to you and i am happy that you can get the satisfaction from that

However, i say this to owners of the other main contenders for this title - this feeling should also be applicable to you

If you have an AP, JLC, Breguet, VC, Lange, etc etc (no names missed intentionally but you get the picture) then be happy that you can own such a beautiful and practical piece of art and get the satisfaction of using it for its intended purpose

To conclude, i dont think PP are the Number 1. They may hold the status as most collectable and most desirable at auction but i do feel that for owners and admirers alike there are better options for a better watch experience. PP live on a name that was rightly elevated to the pole position many moons ago. Many years have passed since that time and they have been caught and superceded by a good number of true manufacturers now

For me the top 3 are Lange, VC & (dare i say it) JLC - let the fireworks begin

Mark


----------



## bacari

IMHO, in addition to the standard history, prestige, in-house, etc.... this is what makes Patek #1....

The Patek Philippe Purchased from Inside a WWII Prison Camp, Stolen, Then Replaced (VIDEO) - Blog - HODINKEE


----------



## Signaturetime

*Re: Lange & Sohne is the absolute number ONE!*

I have always admired Lange & Sohne watches, especially for their beauty, their difference and the excellent detail they put into their movements. Also the history of the company is amazing. Just like German cars, their watches are pure quality in every sense of the way. Please have a look at the images of my Lange 1 Timezone and you will agree.


----------



## Spit161

budhudson said:


> For me the top 3 are ... (dare i say it) JLC - let the fireworks begin
> 
> Mark


There will be no fireworks from me. The JLC Reverso is a piece of art.

cheers.


----------



## Dancing Fire

Janne said:


> Personally,. I regard ALS as number 1. OK, they do not have much history to speak of, but the watches are imo far nicer than PP (or JLC plus the rest).
> 
> PP make some nice watches, but they have some ugly ones too. And, they use Quartz movements ( "made by PP" - ??) in several models. Those models are still really expensive.
> 
> The only ugly part of a ALS is the 3/4 bridge. It covers way too much of the beautyful movement.
> 
> If ALS started making them in S/s I would be a customer.


i agree Lange is #1 |> and i hope that they will never produce a S/S watch. IMO...b/c PP produced quartz watches and then a rubber watch that's when PP dropped 1 notch.


----------



## Stensbjerg

100% agree with your there mark Lang,VC and JLC is also my top b-)b-)b-) ;-)


----------



## solowmodel

bacari said:


> IMHO, in addition to the standard history, prestige, in-house, etc.... this is what makes Patek #1....
> 
> The Patek Philippe Purchased from Inside a WWII Prison Camp, Stolen, Then Replaced.(VIDEO) - Blog - HODINKEE


Very cool story!


----------



## socalbreeze

mleok said:


> I don't think you can really compare the quartz experiment with the Patek Calatrava to the ongoing and relentless monstrosities which are the limited edition Royal Oak Offshores.


Sorry if I resurrected this thread from the dead. Like it or not, its the Offshore series that kept AP privately owned til today. They would of went out of business awhile back if all these celebrities didnt start rocking it. (Panerai, anyone?)

The top 3 are: PP, AP, and VC. We all can make an argument for Lange and JLC. But whoever said Breguet retains its value must be joking.


----------



## bhd812

Watch companies have high points and low points in time. Some great brands mentioned here like A.Lange among the rest have had the respect as of late but Patek has had it for the longest...way before these others even thought of it. VC, AP, and Breguet lately are not at their high point, still the top brands in the world but not the number 1. JLC is said to be 90% Patek and 10% of the price, amazing as JLC is not in the same league at PP. Self owned, continued innovation since they begun till today, etc, etc, etc, places Patek at number 1. 

Their are many great brands of watches and to you and I those may seem to fit the #1 place today, but in 40 years in the future it will be Patek...just like it was 40 years in the past. Some people don't care for the brand and everyone has an opinion but for the large part of the watch world people just accept PP as 1.


----------



## Stensbjerg

bhd812 said:


> Watch companies have high points and low points in time. Some great brands mentioned here like A.Lange among the rest have had the respect as of late but Patek has had it for the longest...way before these others even thought of it. VC, AP, and Breguet lately are not at their high point, still the top brands in the world but not the number 1. JLC is said to be 90% Patek and 10% of the price, amazing as JLC is not in the same league at PP. Self owned, continued innovation since they begun till today, etc, etc, etc, places Patek at number 1.
> 
> Their are many great brands of watches and to you and I those may seem to fit the #1 place today, but in 40 years in the future it will be Patek...just like it was 40 years in the past. Some people don't care for the brand and everyone has an opinion but for the large part of the watch world people just accept PP as 1.


So when people who sell both brands (Lange and PP) says PP is no way near Lange today and live a lot on the name,then it is just because they don't know what they are talking about
they give as a example the way they do the polish today,we all have our own number one and for me there is no doubt, PP is not number one today and will never be it again (if they ever were )

None of the big well known brands make watches today like Lange or some of the others special high-end brands do
but they do tell a good story and they do it so well.


----------



## iim7v7im7

Mostly Inertia...

There are many fine watch companies that make many watches in a similar class to PP. "Number 1" can differ depending on one's criteria as illustrated by other posters. PP has brand inertia that perpetuates the whole No. 1 thing. That is about brand equity more than watches or service. ALS, AP, and VC all make many watches on the same level as PP (some can argue better in some cases). Brands like Blancpain, Breguet, Girard-Perregaux, Jaeger Le Coultre and Ulysse Nardin also produce some Haute Horologie pieces that are of equal quality to PP as well. Choosing a No 1 brand is somewhat silly. All are great companies making fine timepieces. The Number one thing is for other's perceptions and not the owner or ownership experience. 

My $.02

Bob


----------



## BenL

socalbreeze said:


> Sorry if I resurrected this thread from the dead. Like it or not, its the Offshore series that kept AP privately owned til today. They would of went out of business awhile back if all these celebrities didnt start rocking it. (Panerai, anyone?)
> 
> The top 3 are: PP, AP, and VC. We all can make an argument for Lange and JLC. But whoever said Breguet retains its value must be joking.


I don't think anyone would argue the above are the top 6 brands in the horology world. Where they are relative to each other is probably very subjective.


----------



## jobryan

Stensbjerg said:


> To me PP is no way near number one
> 
> VC is a head if we are talking history with (what I belive) is a longer and better one
> Lange is a head if we are talking mekanik for ex are PP today using a chemical polishing as many cheaper brands where Lange use real hand polish.
> (there is nothing wrong with thats polish as longe as you don't take the prices PP do)
> 
> One of my watch friend thats talks with some really serious people in the industry have been told that today PP really living a lot on the name
> so to me Lange and VC are at the top today with a small advantage to Lange.


Am I too late to jump in on this? Patek isn't necessarily no 1, just like Rolex isnt necessarily no 1 in the mid range watch realm, or how ferrari isnt necessarily no 1 in the exotic car realm. Those companies are just the most recognizable. Patek did something right along the way of its history to make it the most famous high end watch company out there.


----------



## Stensbjerg

jobryan said:


> Am I too late to jump in on this? Patek isn't necessarily no 1, just like Rolex isnt necessarily no 1 in the mid range watch realm, or how ferrari isnt necessarily no 1 in the exotic car realm. Those companies are just the most recognizable. Patek did something right along the way of its history to make it the most famous high end watch company out there.


You are so right my friend they did something very very right 
they asked JLC to make some movement for them to give them the good jump start they needed ;-)

To me they are not even the most famous high-end brand out there
but we all have our belivesb-)


----------



## Watchbreath

Well, that's one way to stand apart from the crowd.


Stensbjerg said:


> You are so right my friend they did something very very right
> they asked JLC to make some movement for them to give them the good jump start they needed ;-)
> 
> To me they are not even the most famous high-end brand out there
> but we all have our belivesb-)


----------



## jobryan

Stensbjerg said:


> You are so right my friend they did something very very right
> they asked JLC to make some movement for them to give them the good jump start they needed ;-)
> 
> To me they are not even the most famous high-end brand out there
> but we all have our belivesb-)


Well now im interested. In your opinion, what is the most recognizable high end brand on the market (excluding fashion watches)? JLC might be a relatively close second, but I would guess most people think of PP when they think of high end pieces.


----------



## Stensbjerg

jobryan said:


> Well now im interested. In your opinion, what is the most recognizable high end brand on the market (excluding fashion watches)? JLC might be a relatively close second, but I would guess most people think of PP when they think of high end pieces.


The way is see it the most famos and recognizable brand out ther today is AP (just take a look at how many celeb and rolemodels that wear RO and ROO today)
I don't get the feeling of that many people know PP or JLC for that matter,I think they are much more discrete,
maybe I stand alone with that point of view like watchbreath says,but that dosen't change anything for me.

But then again maybe it is only us watch crazy people that look at what watch all the celeb wears ??


----------



## Watchbreath

I consider many of the celebs, twits and I couldn't care less what they wear.


Stensbjerg said:


> The way is see it the most famos and recognizable brand out ther today is AP (just take a look at how many celeb and rolemodels that wear RO and ROO today)
> I don't get the feeling of that many people know PP or JLC for that matter,I think they are much more discrete,
> maybe I stand alone with that point of view like watchbreath says,but that dosen't change anything for me.
> 
> But then again maybe it is only us watch crazy people that look at what watch all the celeb wears ??


----------



## Stensbjerg

Watchbreath said:


> I consider many of the celebs, twits and I couldn't care less what they wear.


I couldn't also not care less what these people wear 
but they can make a watch famos and well know like it or not.


----------



## portauto

Patek commands the highest demand and highest prices of any ultra luxury wristwatches at auction. I think it would be safe to say that Patek has fetched more at auction in the past decade than VC, AP, JLC and ALS combined.

Also in emerging markets like China, Patek is absolutely number 1 in this market segment.

If we are going only on celebrity endorsements then I suppose Rolex, Omega an TAG are the top watches. I don't know anyone outside of the watch community who knows what Richard Mille or AP are, but when talking about ultra luxury timepieces many will have heard of Patek.

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Watchbreath

Most get them as a freebee to attract the legions of wannabes out there.


Stensbjerg said:


> I couldn't also not care less what these people wear
> but they can make a watch famos and well know like it or not.


----------



## Stensbjerg

Watchbreath said:


> Most get them as a freebee to attract the legions of wannabes out there.


for sure but the effect is still the same,and it happens because the brands know what kind of power de hold.


----------



## Dancing Fire

portauto said:


> Patek commands the highest demand and highest prices of any ultra luxury wristwatches at auction. I think it would be safe to say that Patek has fetched more at auction in the past decade than VC, AP, JLC and ALS combined.
> 
> Also in emerging markets like China, Patek is absolutely number 1 in this market segment.
> 
> If we are going only on celebrity endorsements then I suppose Rolex, Omega an TAG are the top watches. I don't know anyone outside of the watch community who knows what Richard Mille or AP are, but when talking about ultra luxury timepieces many will have heard of Patek.
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Portauto
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


they have too much corruption money in their pockets so they just buy any expensive Pateks without any knowledges why a Patek is so expensive.


----------



## portauto

Dancing Fire said:


> they have too much corruption money in their pockets so they just buy any expensive Pateks without any knowledges why a Patek is so expensive.


That's a really ignorant generalization. Are you being specific to rich mainland Chinese? Or by this logic anyone in the world who purchases an expensive Patek has too much corruption money and has no knowledge of why a Patek is so expensive?

Kindest Regards,
Portauto


----------



## Tony A.H

PP maybe Number 1 only if YOU Think it is .
it's like saying Mercedes Benze is the Best..! but we all Know that the're Better Cars than MB.
and that goes the Same for PP..


----------



## HelloNasty1

mleok said:


> AP is also independent, but I have to say that the endless array of limited edition Royal Oak Offshores does cheapen the brand in my mind.


+1 +1 +1 did I mention +1?


----------



## Navitimer

What makes Patek number 1 in the world of haute horlogerie?

Let me illustrate:









The quality and finishing on a Patek is simply superb. This is all the more remarkable when you consider that this would only ever be seen by a watchmaker and not the owner of the watch. This finishing is very pretty but this is from a time when a lot of this would genuinely have been functional and contribute to the overall long term functioning of the movement.

Patek, Vacheron and Audemars have historically shared the same space in horology with Lange now biting at their heels. The real question is why has Patek taken off in image terms while VC and AP have languished?

Easy - marketing.

That's a short flippant answer but let me expand a little. Patek has a long illustrious history but really only came into their element when the Stern family took over in the 1930's. The launch of the Calatrava was probably the start of the 'new' Patek Philippe. Until fairly recently Vacheron was the number one watch brand by image, not Patek. Vacheron had a dark period from the 1970's and has not been anywhere near as aggressive in their marketing as Patek. AP have cheapened the brand by concentrating on the Royal Oak and it's many iterations.

The prices fetched by vintage Pateks at auction are a major source of this image and this seems to work in a similar way to the modern art market with often anonymous buyers and sellers. Draw your own conclusions.

Another major factor are the complicated watches produced by Patek. We're talking about the minute repeater, perpetual calendar tourbillons here. Amazing feats of miniature engineering but only available in tiny quantities and at incredible prices. These watches are not the money spinners for Patek. That would be the simpler Calatravas, Nautilus, annual calendars and their quartz ladies watches. The cache of the brand casts a warm glow on the rest of their products. Note that none of the other brands produce anything like the range and diversity of complex models.

Is a Calatrava a better watch than a Vacheron Patrimony, AP Jules Audemars or Lange Saxonia? Probably not but the perception of them is definitely higher.


----------



## daviecooper

I am in the market for a new Patek, can anyone recommend a good place to start looking? Im assuming prices are uniform.


----------



## Watchbreath

At your local AD.


daviecooper said:


> I am in the market for a new Patek, can anyone recommend a good place to start looking? Im assuming prices are uniform.


----------



## Janne

I think that Rolex is the most regognised No 1 Luxury Brand.

Not by us WIS, but by the Hoi Polloi.

PP or ALS? Finishing wise of the movement - I can not see much difference (loupe 4X). 

I think personally ALS is a smidgen above PP. Unless ALS are hiding unfinished parts with the stamp Made in Chine under the 3/4 plate.


----------



## pifpaf

> What makes Patek No 1


The results of auctions.


----------



## Stensbjerg

pifpaf said:


> The results of auctions.


So PP is number one in the watch world to you just because the old PPs goes for most money on auctions today
how does the price on a old PP say anything about where the new PPs stands today.

I don't think you can compare a old and new PP because back then they where much more handbuild.


----------



## samanator

Having spent the past week viewing most of the top brands while away on vacation my personal determination would agree with Patek being number 1. The combination of master case working, movement, and dial and hand finishing exceeded anything else out there. I saw pretty much everything else mentioned here and with no preconceived notions this was where I arrived. It also showed me a few brands that do certain things better than others and a few brands that I've held in higher regard and now they have fallen. VC would be my number two. Just what my observations concluded.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## perpetualman88

because PP can do things no other watch maker in the world can such as the sky moon tourbilion


----------



## Watchbreath

:think: As I recall they said they couldn't make the 'Mercator', so VC went ahead and made it.


perpetualman88 said:


> because PP can do things no other watch maker in the world can such as the sky moon tourbilion


----------



## TheKeeper

*What makes a Patek expensive...*

Hi all,

This may seem a stupid question to the people in the know, but I have only just begun my journey in high end watches.

I have been searching for a watch the last few months, and my wife asked me this question, and honestly, I could not really answer it.

What makes a Patek so expensive? On the outside to the common person, they are generally very simple and plain. Is it the quality of workmanship that they are charging for? Obviously being made in house adds to the cost, but a lot of watches are made in-house that are a lot cheaper. Why is a Patek with the same complications more expensive than a JLC for eg?


----------



## amine

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*

A simple click on the search function leads you to this: https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/what-makes-patek-no-1-a-553933.html

Now enjoy reading


----------



## TheKeeper

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*

Hmmm... thanks for that I guess we can close this thread!


----------



## Sean779

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*

its market.


----------



## TheKeeper

So why is it that PP watches cost so much more than a JLC for eg with a similar complication? Is it purely because of the brand name and 'history'?


----------



## D4rcy

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*

I too am new to watches and have asked myself the same question...4months ago had no concept of these types of 'high end' watches. I think its pretty similar to most products (eg cars) there is always going to be certain brands that have established themselves in history for whatever reason and are now able to profit from that. They apparently made the first wrist watch and if a company can claim that i guess they can charge whatever they like all these years later. Also many will compare these high end products to the art market, this makes a bit of sense to me and helps me understand that its a lot about the relationship that the watch has with the company and the history that comes with it. You are not buying a watch you are buying a Patek.


----------



## Watchbreath

Slip a few on and you'll get it.


TheKeeper said:


> So why is it that PP watches cost so much more than a JLC for eg with a similar complication? Is it purely because of the brand name and 'history'?


----------



## amine

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*



TheKeeper said:


> Hmmm... thanks for that I guess we can close this thread!


Threads merged!


----------



## 80talisten

I can understand why Patek is considered as nr 1 for many but they are far from a favorite for me. I actually see VC, Breguet and A Lange & Söhne as more Highend than Patek. And JLC is very underated compared to Patek. JLC actually manufactured movements to Patek, has people forget that? Another watchmaker came to my mind now, Philippe Dufour. He is a master watchmaker, he has woundeful masterpeases which is made compley by hand and by him self. Old school. He is a horological genious, I would actually take one of his watches over a Patek Phillipe - http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/customhouse/111/Dufour.htm.


----------



## Watchbreath

You must have very deep pockets. It's been awhile since JLC made calibers for Patek.


80talisten said:


> I can understand why Patek is considered as nr 1 for many but they are far from a favorite for me. I actually see VC, Breguet and A Lange & Söhne as more Highend than Patek. And JLC is very underated compared to Patek. JLC actually manufactured movements to Patek, has people forget that? Another watchmaker came to my mind now, Philippe Dufour. He is a master watchmaker, he has woundeful masterpeases which is made compley by hand and by him self. Old school. He is a horological genious, I would actually take one of his watches over a Patek Phillipe - $600,000 for a watch.


----------



## 80talisten

No I dont have very deep pockets :-d Im just saying that I prefer brands which manufactures smaller volymes, and VC, Breuget, Lange are more exlusive and rare timepieces. JLC makes amazing watches for a mush better price than Patek with the same complications. Then I think JLC has more innovations like Gyro Tourbillon. Yes that is what I think


----------



## Watchbreath

Then you should really like Lang & Heyne. The others are hardly "rare".


80talisten said:


> No I dont have very deep pockets :-d Im just saying that I prefer brands which manufactures smaller volymes, and VC, Breuget, Lange are more exlusive and rare timepieces. JLC makes amazing watches for a mush better price than Patek with the same complications. Then I think JLC has more innovations like Gyro Tourbillon. Yes that is what I think


----------



## v76

Breguet makes some pretty nice watches, but under the loupe I can only see ALS approaching Patek watches (though I've heard lately that PP has been slipping up - I've mostly looked at pre-'70s Pateks, and in that period their movement finish was peerless) in terms of finish (perhaps VC as well, to a fair extent). One way to really gauge engineering design/finish is to look at the gear tooth profiles/cogs/cams/levers under high magnification (the uniformity and shape of the machine elements, smoothness of curve profiles), and the edges of movement plates - anglage/chamfer, absence of any kinds of burrs, chips, etc. The surface of screw heads (level of polish and absence of burrs), the jewel, countersinks and chatons, etc.

Also, another real giveaway is looking at the dial-side finishing of movement plates, gears and other dynamic elements in the movement (as opposed to movement-side). That's another aspect which separates the men from the boys in high-end watches, PPs score well there. As also, small incremental simple-but-brilliant design solutions such as the Gyromax (TM) variable inertia balance which make rate-adjustment all so easy.

As Watchbreath says, if you really want old-world, low-volume, master-watchmaker-hand-crafted stuff you're better off looking at independents such as Lang & Heyne, Roger W. Smith, Kari Voutilainen, Philippe Dufour, etc. But, you'll also be waiting much longer and paying much more for one of those beauties.


----------



## iim7v7im7

v76,

This is more of a question. because I have never looked at all of thes ewatches under a loop. But are you saying that you can actually see differences between say:

ALS Saxonia
AP Jules Audemars
Breguet Classique
Patek Calatrava
VC Patramony
If you have the time, I would love to hear what you saw that was different in terms of movement finishing. I was always under the impression that they were all fairly comparable.

Thanks,

Bob



v76 said:


> Breguet makes some pretty nice watches, but under the loupe I can only see ALS approaching Patek watches (though I've heard lately that PP has been slipping up - I've mostly looked at pre-'70s Pateks, and in that period their movement finish was peerless) in terms of finish (perhaps VC as well, to a fair extent). One way to really gauge engineering design/finish is to look at the gear tooth profiles/cogs/cams/levers under high magnification (the uniformity and shape of the machine elements, smoothness of curve profiles), and the edges of movement plates - anglage/chamfer, absence of any kinds of burrs, chips, etc. The surface of screw heads (level of polish and absence of burrs), the jewel, countersinks and chatons, etc.
> 
> Also, another real giveaway is looking at the dial-side finishing of movement plates, gears and other dynamic elements in the movement (as opposed to movement-side). That's another aspect which separates the men from the boys in high-end watches, PPs score well there. As also, small incremental simple-but-brilliant design solutions such as the Gyromax (TM) variable inertia balance which make rate-adjustment all so easy.
> 
> As Watchbreath says, if you really want old-world, low-volume, master-watchmaker-hand-crafted stuff you're better off looking at independents such as Lang & Heyne, Roger W. Smith, Kari Voutilainen, Philippe Dufour, etc. But, you'll also be waiting much longer and paying much more for one of those beauties.


----------



## 80talisten

> As Watchbreath says, if you really want old-world, low-volume, master-watchmaker-hand-crafted stuff you're better off looking at independents such as Lang & Heyne, Roger W. Smith, Kari Voutilainen, Philippe Dufour, etc. But, you'll also be waiting much longer and paying much more for one of those beauties.


I have heard about Philippe Dufour when he worked for Audemars Piguet he thinked they dident make their watches with good quality/standard enough for his taste so he leaved them to make his own watches.


----------



## v76

One small article to get you started ...
A Comparison of the Keyless Works in a Patek and a Lange - TimeZone



iim7v7im7 said:


> v76,
> 
> This is more of a question. because I have never looked at all of thes ewatches under a loop. But are you saying that you can actually see differences between say:
> 
> ALS Saxonia
> AP Jules Audemars
> Breguet Classique
> Patek Calatrava
> VC Patramony
> If you have the time, I would love to hear what you saw that was different in terms of movement finishing. I was always under the impression that they were all fairly comparable.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob


----------



## iim7v7im7

Hi,

I had seen Walt Odet's piece before. It is very informative, but may be a bit out of currency, the article may be >10 years or more old by now. Here are some photos of some of their manual wind movements. I see different styles of movement maufacture (German 3/4 plate, screwed chantons, swan neck etc.), but all are nicely finsihed calibres.

I was under the impression from your prior post that you had spent some time with a loop (maybe you did, but still sent me to Walt's article. Can you (or others) provide any further contrasts? I have aesthetic preferences, but there is really no solid foundation underpininng them

Thanks,

Bob

ALS Caliber 915









AP Calibre 3090








Breguet Calibre 510








Patek Calibre 215









VC Calibre 4400 AS









v76 said:


> One small article to get you started ...
> A Comparison of the Keyless Works in a Patek and a Lange - TimeZone


----------



## Dancing Fire

i'll take the Lange!
i'd give credit to Lange for not producing any S/S,quartz or rubber watches.


----------



## Illiguy

As someone who does not know that much about high-end luxury watch brands, perhaps I can offer a fresh (albeit limited) perspective. I cannot competently tell you which high-end make churns out the best in terms of craftsmanship, or which high-end make has the most illustrious history; I'd be kidding myself if I said otherwise.

What I _can_ tell you, however, is that in my humble opinion, the reputation of PP is comparable to the reputation of Rolex in the mid-luxury watch segment.

Just as Rolex has the most brand awareness in the mid-lux segment, I believe PP has the most brand awareness in the high-end segment. I do not base this on any marketing statistics or on what I've read in these forums or in myriad watch blog. I base this on my experience working in an industrial, rust-belt city law firm where 99% of the city's population probably hears "Patek Philippe" and thinks of that other guy in that one Gerard Depardieu movie.

The long and the short of it is that the partners at my law firm just rave over PP. PP is the "grail" of grails for them. I've never heard JLC, VC, A.LS or any other high-end make discussed around the office water cooler.

And just because Rolex is the most well-known brand in the mid-lux segment, that does not necessarily mean that Omega or IWC or Breitling is less capable of making an equal or better watch. And just because Mercedes may be the better known brand in the luxury car segment, that does not necessarily mean that BMW and/or Lexus is of any lesser quality. I believe the same holds with PP and the other high-end watch brands.

Without knowing anything more (and I really don't), PP is just the brand that sticks out the most when I (and those around me) think of high-end luxury.


----------



## iim7v7im7

*High-end Brand movements: ALS, Breguet AP, PP AND VC*

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was not asking about brand recognition. I know that Rolex and Patek Philippe are the best recognized and retain the highest value vs. purchase price.

I was really asking more of a nits and grits question to those WUS members who are familiar with these brands and movement manufacturers.

I know today, with the advent of ALS introducing well crafted, Saxon designed calibers (german silver, screwed chantons, 3/4 plates etc.) in the 1990s and PP having produced the lion-share of their calibres for many years now (along with some LeCoultre movements and some Lemania chronographs) has forced both AP to acquire Renaud & Papi and and VC to acquire HDG to bolster their in-house calibere capabilities. Breguet being the crown jewel acquisition of Swatch Group invested a fortune into both high-end historic ebauche manufacturers; Lemania (Breguet) and Frederic Piguet (Blancpain) and reduced or eliminated their use in competitors.

The "Big 3" had historically been etablisseurs and wonderful re-finishers of movements. It is recent history and luxury brand marketing that has brought forward the notion of "in-house" with exclusivity. So I wanted to get beyond the perceptions and into the watchmaking itself.

Is there really any difference in quality between a beautifully executed Lemania or Frederic Piguet calibre used in a Breguet and a ALS, AP, PP or VC calibre in terms of their quality of finish? I know that some reflect regional differences in design and construction (Geneva, Vallée de Joux or Saxon), are they all beautifully finished to the same degree? I would love to hear from participants who have owned some of these brands or from watchmakers who participate.

So if we look at a number of the manual wind calibers offered by these makers:

ALS Calibre 941 used in their Saxonia watches (in-house)
AP Calibre 3090 used in their Jules Audemars watches (in-house)
Breguet Calibre 510 used in their Classique watches (modified Frederic Piguet FP 1150 by Lemania)
Patek Philippe Calibre 215 used in the Calatrava watches (in-house)
Vacheron Constantin Calibre 4400 AS used in Patrimony watches (in-house)
This is what I was hoping to hear about.



Bob



Illiguy said:


> As someone who does not know that much about high-end luxury watch brands, perhaps I can offer a fresh (albeit limited) perspective. I cannot competently tell you which high-end make churns out the best in terms of craftsmanship, or which high-end make has the most illustrious history; I'd be kidding myself if I said otherwise.
> 
> What I _can_ tell you, however, is that in my humble opinion, the reputation of PP is comparable to the reputation of Rolex in the mid-luxury watch segment.
> 
> Just as Rolex has the most brand awareness in the mid-lux segment, I believe PP has the most brand awareness in the high-end segment. I do not base this on any marketing statistics or on what I've read in these forums or in myriad watch blog. I base this on my experience working in an industrial, rust-belt city law firm where 99% of the city's population probably hears "Patek Philippe" and thinks of that other guy in that one Gerard Depardieu movie.
> 
> The long and the short of it is that the partners at my law firm just rave over PP. PP is the "grail" of grails for them. I've never heard JLC, VC, A.LS or any other high-end make discussed around the office water cooler.
> 
> And just because Rolex is the most well-known brand in the mid-lux segment, that does not necessarily mean that Omega or IWC or Breitling is less capable of making an equal or better watch. And just because Mercedes may be the better known brand in the luxury car segment, that does not necessarily mean that BMW and/or Lexus is of any lesser quality. I believe the same holds with PP and the other high-end watch brands.
> 
> Without knowing anything more (and I really don't), PP is just the brand that sticks out the most when I (and those around me) think of high-end luxury.


----------



## Illiguy

*Re: High-end Brand movements: ALS, Breguet AP, PP AND VC*

I was speaking more to the OP, and was not attempting to answer your question. Happy Holidays.



iim7v7im7 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was not asking about brand recognition. I know that Rolex and Patek Philippe are the best recognized and retain the highest value vs. purchase price.
> 
> I was really asking more of a nits and grits question to those WUS members who are familiar with these brands and movement manufacturers.
> 
> I know today, with the advent of ALS introducing well crafted, Saxon designed calibers (german silver, screwed chantons, 3/4 plates etc.) in the 1990s and PP having produced the lion-share of their calibres for many years now (along with some LeCoultre movements and some Lemania chronographs) has forced both AP to acquire Renaud & Papi and and VC to acquire HDG to bolster their in-house calibere capabilities. Breguet being the crown jewel acquisition of Swatch Group invested a fortune into both high-end historic ebauche manufacturers; Lemania (Breguet) and Frederic Piguet (Blancpain) and reduced or eliminated their use in competitors.
> 
> The "Big 3" had historically been etablisseurs and wonderful re-finishers of movements. It is recent history and luxury brand marketing that has brought forward the notion of "in-house" with exclusivity. So I wanted to get beyond the perceptions and into the watchmaking itself.
> 
> Is there really any difference in quality between a beautifully executed Lemania or Frederic Piguet calibre used in a Breguet and a ALS, AP, PP or VC calibre in terms of their quality of finish? I know that some reflect regional differences in design and construction (Geneva, Vallée de Joux or Saxon), are they all beautifully finished to the same degree? I would love to hear from participants who have owned some of these brands or from watchmakers who participate.
> 
> So if we look at a number of the manual wind calibers offered by these makers:
> 
> ALS Calibre 941 used in their Saxonia watches (in-house)
> AP Calibre 3090 used in their Jules Audemars watches (in-house)
> Breguet Calibre 510 used in their Classique watches (modified Frederic Piguet FP 1150 by Lemania)
> Patek Philippe Calibre 215 used in the Calatrava watches (in-house)
> Vacheron Constantin Calibre 4400 AS used in Patrimony watches (in-house)
> This is what I was hoping to hear about.
> 
> 
> 
> Bob


----------



## iim7v7im7

*Re: High-end Brand movements: ALS, Breguet AP, PP AND VC*

My mistake...apologies

Same to you.

Merry Christmas.



Bob


----------



## Matt Sutton

*Re: What makes a Patek expensive...*

It would be interesting to build a matrix of attributes that constitute HE watches, and compare between the brands as they are examined by a panal of independant master watch makers, mechanical engineers, jewlers, artists, and horologists. There would be a debate on what value weight would be placed on each attribute, but the panal of experts would need to vote to build the comparative analysis model. I would think some of the attributes would include; tolerances and finishing, percentage of in house manufacturing, innovation in design, aesthetics, functionality/complexity, durability, historical contribution to horology, etc. Yes, it would still be subjective, but in a delibrate method.

And then there is the element of owner appreciation. This is the owners pleasure in a particular brand because of an associated personal view. For example, I really enjoy my Ulysse Nardin 1846 (early model) because it reminds me of their part in Nautical navigation based upon their Marine Chronometer. Their chronometers were copied by Hamilton before WWII and became one of the worlds great achievments in mass production. A wrist watch version of their UN chronometer gives me great pleasure because of this knowledge. I also get great pleasure in my Patek 5107R since I love the simplicity and quality in the design. My Calatrava is most likely not the absolute best in the world as far as production watches in finish (Lange may have it), but it is flawless in my eyes, and the best that I will ever own...so I'm very pleased. Lastly, I very much enjoy my Hamilton Bradford 14K cased 770 movement. It was arguably the greatest American manufactured wrist watch ever produced. They were considered the "Patek" of the U.S., and unsurpassed in quality. I cannot confirm that its equal in quality to Patek, but it is acknowleged as the best before Hamilton closed their Lancaster , PA factory doors in 1969.

Bottom line, the psychological aspect is a critical element in brand/model satisfaction, and this is always the objective of brand marketing, or it can simply be derived from your own personal knowledge or research.


----------



## Matt Sutton

1


----------



## Millionaire Dude

Is it official that Patek is no. 1? For me Rolex is the King. Don't care about history, its the past.


----------



## Watchbreath

Is it because of that crown?


Millionaire Dude said:


> Is it official that Patek is no. 1? For me Rolex is the King. Don't care about history, its the past.


----------



## v76

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past ;-)


----------



## Mitch47

Dancing Fire said:


> i'll take the Lange!
> i'd give credit to Lange for not producing any S/S,quartz or rubber watches.


Agreed!

My favorite brand is AP. It is not because of a specific model but it is the whole brand and everything that comes with it.

But I have to be honest and say I am not 100% satisfied with AP. Reason: the Offshore collection. I do like some of them yes, but there are issues that really grind my gears. For example, just too many materials used in one single watch model. Forged carbon used together with stainless steel and rubber with options to have titanium and gold parts, uff I cannot take it. Jay-Z might like but I don't. And the number of model combinations you can create from them! Overwhelming and not in a good way. And the rubber strap, hello! I am not ready to pay for 20 000€ for a watch with a strap made out of a condom. Not even if it is my favorite brand.

The same unfortunately goes with PP. You can make a list of arguments including heritage, independence, in-house movement or auction prices, I don't care. If PP expects me to pay 15 000€ for Aquanaut with a strap made out of my Wellingtons, they are dreaming.

I have my favorite which is AP. I know it is not perfect but in my mind neither is PP. All I can say is that I hope ALS never starts producing stainless steel or rubber watches.


----------



## Mitch47

Lewis99 said:


> Words that a lot around here like to use, history, heritage, retention of value ect. ect. With Patek, it's all thru and
> it's been that way for a looong time. Unlike some of the others.


This is an old thread from last year and it has been dead for a couple of months now but I wanted to share my thoughts. The OP asked critically why Patek is considered the number 1. I do agree with you about those characteristics but if you read the thread, people do think that also other manufacturers share them.

Maybe it is only me but when I hear that a watch has a rubber strap, I get put off by it. I don't associate rubber with luxury. I know there are many luxury, high end brands that use rubber but I cannot use the words rubber and retention of value in the same sentence. Or history and heritage. I know the industry moves forward and new materials are being used but there is something about a watch having a +15 000€ price tag around its rubber strap that makes me think critically. No matter who is the manufacturer.


----------



## Janne

Mitch47 said:


> This is an old thread from last year and it has been dead for a couple of months now but I wanted to share my thoughts. The OP asked critically why Patek is considered the number 1. I do agree with you about those characteristics but if you read the thread, people do think that also other manufacturers share them.
> 
> Maybe it is only me but when I hear that a watch has a rubber strap, I get put off by it. I don't associate rubber with luxury. I know there are many luxury, high end brands that use rubber but I cannot use the words rubber and retention of value in the same sentence. Or history and heritage. I know the industry moves forward and new materials are being used but there is something about a watch having a +15 000€ price tag around its rubber strap that makes me think critically. No matter who is the manufacturer.


Thoughts I agree with. Unfortunately Synthetic Rubber is seen as an "in" material, and is now used even by venerable manufacturers likr PP snd JLC. I would personally never buy one of these products.

I think that when ALS started manufacturying watches, they set the sights to produce a movement that not only had the heritage of the Saxon movement manufacture, but also to br better in many ways than PP and the other brands.

Personally, I rate ALS as slightly above PP. If it was not for the 3/4 plate and case material, I would get an ALS yesterday.
But thr difference between the top 5 or 6 brands is negligible.


----------



## Sean779

Mitch47 said:


> Maybe it is only me but when I hear that a watch has a rubber strap, I get put off by it. I don't associate rubber with luxury. I know there are many luxury, high end brands that use rubber but I cannot use the words rubber and retention of value in the same sentence. Or history and heritage. I know the industry moves forward and new materials are being used but there is something about a watch having a +15 000€ price tag around its rubber strap that makes me think critically. No matter who is the manufacturer.


a seldom mentioned alchemical property of rubber is when it allies with a greater than $7999 watch it becomes _caoutchouc_.

gesundheit!


----------



## Sean779

Close to 21 million tons of rubber were produced in 2005 of which around 42% was natural [_caoutchouc_]. Since the bulk of the rubber produced is the synthetic variety which is derived from petroleum, the price of even natural rubber is determined to a very large extent by the prevailing global price of crude oil.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP] Today Asia is the main source of natural rubber, accounting for around 94% of output in 2005. The three largest producing countries, Thailand, Indonesia (2.4m tons)[SUP][5][/SUP] and Malaysia, together account for around 72% of all natural rubber production. Natural rubber is not cultivated widely in its native continent of South America due to the existence of South American leaf blight, and other natural predators of the rubber tree.
--_from Wikipedia_


----------



## jb68902

Pateks tend to hold their value better than any of these, especially Breguet.


----------



## mleok

jb68902 said:


> Pateks tend to hold their value better than any of these, especially Breguet.


Yes, but it's kind of a chicken and egg question, does Patek holding its value make it No. 1, or is it because it's No. 1 that causes it to hold its value? My suspicion is that it's the latter.


----------



## dkennedy1001

Janne said:


> If it was not for the 3/4 plate and case material, I would get an ALS yesterday.


Hi Janne, can you explain what you mean by this sentence as it interests me as i dont know much about 3/4 plates to be honest?

Cheers


----------



## Janne

In Glasutte they have a design thing with the outmost (visible) movement plate. It covers approx 3/4 of the visible area of the movement. The positive part is that it is very solid and inflexible, the negative is that it covers the beautiful movement, so you can not see it.
Not sure if it is more difficult to manufacture this large plate with precision, or if several smaller plates are more difficult to get right.

Just a modern example:










And an old one:









Post 81 in this thread shows better examples.


----------



## dkennedy1001

Interesting, thanks for sharing


----------



## mikeyc

*Re: Lange & Sohne is the absolute number ONE!*



Signaturetime said:


> I have always admired Lange & Sohne watches, especially for their beauty, their difference and the excellent detail they put into their movements. Also the history of the company is amazing. Just like German cars, their watches are pure quality in every sense of the way. Please have a look at the images of my Lange 1 Timezone and you will agree.


That watch us simply stunning and is my grail watch. Wear it in good health.


----------



## Dancing Fire

dkennedy1001 said:


> Hi Janne, can you explain what you mean by this sentence as it interests me as i dont know much about 3/4 plates to be honest?
> 
> Cheers


this is what Janne was referring to...here are some pic of my Lange 1


----------



## dkennedy1001

Dancing Fire said:


> this is what Janne was referring to...here are some pic of my Lange 1


Ah, I see, thanks for the info.


----------



## Anans1

Quite simply is that PP did not stray from its horological course (e.g. the 1970's quartz adventures of others)


----------



## mleok

Anans1 said:


> Quite simply is that PP did not stray from its horological course (e.g. the 1970's quartz adventures of others)


Patek did offer a quartz version of the Calatrava, and they still offer quartz watches in their ladies line. Most notably, the twenty4 line of ladies watches is only available with a quartz movement.


----------



## Anans1

mleok said:


> Patek did offer a quartz version of the Calatrava, and they still offer quartz watches in their ladies line. Most notably, the twenty4 line of ladies watches is only available with a quartz movement.


My bad, I apologize for the mistake

Thanks for that bit of knowledge


----------



## Jshapco2

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I wanted to put in my two cents. I am a watchmaker and have been working for about three and a half years now. I decided to finally buy a watch in the $20,000 range. I looked at PP, VC, JLC, FP Journe, ALS and Breguet. I ended up buying a Patek Calatrava 5296( Not the sector dial). I found the quality of the dial as well as the movement finish extremely well done. Importantly, of all the brands selected here it will hold its value the best. My next choices would have been an FP Journe Chronomtre Souverain and a Lange 1. I live in Los Angeles near Beverly Hills, which means I was lucky enough to look at all this watches in person.


----------



## 2muchtimeonmyhands

Jshapco2 said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, but I wanted to put in my two cents. I am a watchmaker and have been working for about three and a half years now. I decided to finally buy a watch in the $20,000 range. I looked at PP, VC, JLC, FP Journe, ALS and Breguet. I ended up buying a Patek Calatrava 5296( Not the sector dial). I found the quality of the dial as well as the movement finish extremely well done. Importantly, of all the brands selected here it will hold its value the best. My next choices would have been an FP Journe Chronomtre Souverain and a Lange 1. I live in Los Angeles near Beverly Hills, which means I was lucky enough to look at all this watches in person.


Just out of interest, irrespective of the long term value, were there any of the other brands that you looked at that offered similar or better movement finishing than the PP?


----------



## mvmt

Patek is one of those brands that I personally stay away from. Ever since I got into high end watches many moons ago, when I was first exposed to Patek, it has been drilled into my head how desirable Patek is. Patek goes for the most money at auctions. Patek has the best resale value. Everyone loves Patek, everyone wants Patek. It became such that the value of Patek as a watch to me was inseparable from the fact that *other people *desired Patek watches.

Why is this Patek watch nice? Because other people want it.

Of course it isn't that simple, but for me I would prefer not to buy a watch just because other people find it highly desirable, and after decades of Patek brain washing I find that I can no longer do that with the Patek brand. I can appreciate the watches from afar, and certainly I find they produce beautiful pieces, but I can't personally look at a Patek and separately evaluate it without the thought of "other people really like this watch and that's why you should like it" creeping into my head.


----------

