# Paderborn price hike?



## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

Hi,

I am a first time poster here. I'd like to begin by first saying what an amazing site this is. I recently started collecting watches and this forum has helped me understand a lot more about watches and appreciate the beauty and inner workings of watches as well as entertained me along the way.

My first exposure to pilot watches was the Christopher Ward C8 which I thought was a fantastic looking piece. I wanted something more alike the WW2 pilot watches however. After doing a bit of research on this site I was turned on to such brands as Steinhart, Archimede, Laco, and Stowa. After a bit of time I had thought to settle on a Laco Paderborn as the sandblasted case appealed to me more than the Stowa's polished case. Also the lower price point appealed to me as well. However it seems that since this morning when I last checked, the price has gone up by 200 Euros. At first I thought I was imagining the sudden price hike but I remember the paderborn initially being cheaper than Stowa's baumuster b as well as the Leipzig being 200 more Euros than the Paderborn (now they are the same price). My question is was there news about this price hike on their website or a newsletter or something? The prices I am referring to are the ones on Laco's website.

Thank you in advanced for your time and patience.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

I emailed Laco to check if the Paderborn did indeed increase in price and received the following reply:

"Hello,


thank you for your Mail and your interest in Laco watches.


For the new year we have get new prices for some models, also for model Paderborn.
The price of 850.- € is correct. Sorry that we have to do that, but about the high prices of materials we do not have a change to keep the old prices. 

If you have any further question, do not hesitate to contact me again.


regards,
Diana Bott"



So it seems that some models have gone up in price.


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## Anxietyprone (Jul 26, 2012)

This may offend some folks, but about time. Laco navigators have been underrated for too long. Laco is the only one of the original 5 including all the nouveau watch makers to maintain such a unique design. And there has to be some value placed on that design.


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## chris slack (Sep 3, 2013)

I thought it was over priced before !!


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

I think they make excellent watches. That being said I'm probably going to get the Stowa flieger instead now. Even though I recognize that the styles are incomparable, being able to get a decorated top grade ETA 2824 for slightly less is a non-trivial factor for me. Hopefully I won't end up regretting it.


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## putra3007 (Jan 12, 2013)

holyk said:


> I think they make excellent watches. That being said I'm probably going to get the Stowa flieger instead now. Even though I recognize that the styles are incomparable, being able to get a decorated top grade ETA 2824 for slightly less is a non-trivial factor for me. Hopefully I won't end up regretting it.


I share your sentiment. But then again, the choice of getting a Laco or Stowa is strictly yours and i am pretty sure you have done your research and hear out the comments and opinion in the forums.

Same with me, am exploring the Stowa now but the setback is the case size at 40 mm. Laco's 42 mm is perfect for me. Also looking at Steinhart 44mm but obviously lacks the heritage and not one of the Original 5.

Well, at the end of the day, am sure both of us would not regret and will appreciate our choice. All are great watches.

Cheers.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk


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## franksf (Apr 12, 2012)

There is not a single watch out there like a Laco flieger A or B....just saying....and how often are you really going to look at the movemnt versus looking at the watch?
Not judging here...but just trying to help....


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Glad I got the Paderborn when I did. 

I own Stowas too, and they're awesome, but they're a smaller, prettier watch. I've always thought the 40 mm Stowa B-Dial looked crowded.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

franksf said:


> There is not a single watch out there like a Laco flieger A or B....just saying....and how often are you really going to look at the movemnt versus looking at the watch?
> Not judging here...but just trying to help....


Well decoration aside I do consider being able to get a flieger with a better grade movement for Euro 60 (this is without the decoration of course) less to be a better value deal.



LH2 said:


> Glad I got the Paderborn when I did.
> 
> I own Stowas too, and they're awesome, but they're a smaller, prettier watch. I've always thought the 40 mm Stowa B-Dial looked crowded.


Did you end up regretting your Stowa purchase? I'm a little nervous about pulling the trigger.


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

holyk said:


> Did you end up regretting your Stowa purchase? I'm a little nervous about pulling the trigger.


Not at all. It's apples & oranges really, as I think you understand. I like the bead blast finish of Laco better, and the corresponding tool watch vibe. My Stowas, (Marine Auto & Ikarus) are dressier due to their smaller size and prettier brushed finishes. I owned a Stowa flieger (and a Muhle Terrasport II) for a while but sold those off since I simply prefer Laco for a pure black-dial flieger.

What's your wrist size? I really doubt you'd regret a Stowa if that's your worry.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

LH2 said:


> Not at all. It's apples & oranges really, as I think you understand. I like the bead blast finish of Laco better, and the corresponding tool watch vibe. My Stowas, (Marine Auto & Ikarus) are dressier due to their smaller size and prettier brushed finishes. I owned a Stowa flieger (and a Muhle Terrasport II) for a while but sold those off since I simply prefer Laco for a pure black-dial flieger.
> 
> What's your wrist size? I really doubt you'd regret a Stowa if that's your worry.


My wrist size varies between 6 to 6 1/2 inches. The 6 1/2 inch is really the high end though and it rarely expands to be that big. My worry is only about how crowded the dial would look.


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

With your smaller wrist, I think a Stowa will fit perfectly. You might find a 42 mm Laco with its straight lugs to be a little large for your taste.

As to whether the dial looks crowded, that's just my opinion. Stowa sells a lot of B-Dials, so I don't think most people think likewise. Bottom line - It's only looks crowded if _you_ think it does.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

Having a 7" wrist, a Stowa flieger will never be on my radar. The Paderborn price hike is what it is. I think it's still very worth it's asking price. And if you you want a watch from one of the original five, and you want one from a German company, that means it's a Wempe, Stowa, or Laco (Lange never cared much about being in the flieger game). The Wempe is too much money for what it is, and the Stowa is too small and pretty to represent a flieger. So, simply dig a little deeper for the Laco.


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## Anxietyprone (Jul 26, 2012)

"We" know that the Paderborn case and dial is singularly unique iconic design. If Laco continues making a high quality Paderborn or its 42mm equivalent it can develop into a popular iconic design. I think if they if were to permanently use a chronometer-grade movement the watch could easily sit next to other iconic designs like the Omega moonwatch, Panerai, Breitling Navitimer, Tag Carrera, etc. 
I would imagine that if Breitling can charge $3000 for a watch with a 2824 movement, then Laco can sell the equivalent chronometer grade watch for $1500 in its iconic design. 
On another subject, I love my Stowa but this constant comparison to the Laco is inappropriate. The designs are apples and oranges. When Stowa makes the same case design as the Laco, then it's time to legitimately compare the watches. Until then, we should really compare the Stowa Type B to the Aristo, Archimede, Vollmer, Steinhart, or the Swiss Hamilton Khaki pilot, etc. All have similar dials, but all have similar cases too. 
Just my two cents.
Cheers!


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

Anxietyprone said:


> "We" know that the Paderborn case and dial is singularly unique iconic design. If Laco continues making a high quality Paderborn or its 42mm equivalent it can develop into a popular iconic design. I think if they if were to permanently use a chronometer-grade movement the watch could easily sit next to other iconic designs like the Omega moonwatch, Panerai, Breitling Navitimer, Tag Carrera, etc.
> I would imagine that if Breitling can charge $3000 for a watch with a 2824 movement, then Laco can sell the equivalent chronometer grade watch for $1500 in its iconic design.
> On another subject, I love my Stowa but this constant comparison to the Laco is inappropriate. The designs are apples and oranges. When Stowa makes the same case design as the Laco, then it's time to legitimately compare the watches. Until then, we should really compare the Stowa Type B to the Aristo, Archimede, Vollmer, Steinhart, or the Swiss Hamilton Khaki pilot, etc. All have similar dials, but all have similar cases too.
> Just my two cents.
> Cheers!


I do recognize that they are different designs and I wasn't trying to comparing them as a whole. I just think that if I can get a flieger with a top grade 2824 movement for cheaper, which has the same history of producing fliegers as the Laco with comparable quality finishing, it would be the better deal. Like I said earlier my concern, and hence my comparison, would then be on how busy the dials are comparatively.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

I agree with most of the opinions here. If you want authenticity and a design that is in keeping with the spirit of the original watches, then a LACO is the no-brainer choice. If you don't care about that the history of the design and just want a B-Uhr inspired interpretation, then Stowa is a viable alternative. And if you're going to go down that road then there are other manufacturers to consider too. It's a personal choice and there isn't a wrong answer.



Anxietyprone said:


> When Stowa makes the same case design as the Laco, then it's time to legitimately compare the watches.


Just to be clear, the original Stowa B-Uhr did not use the same case as LACO did. In fact, Laco is the only one of the original five manufacturers to use a case with those distinctive mid-case lugs. Somewhere in the LACO sub-forum I've posted photos that show all of the various lug shapes that were used by the original five; I'd post it again here, but I'm not on my home computer at the moment.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

Uwe W. said:


> If you don't care about that the history of the design and just want a B-Uhr inspired interpretation, then Stowa is a viable alternative. And if you're going to go down that road then there are other manufacturers to consider too.


I did consider the other brands like Steinhart and Archimede. The Steinhart's vintage appealed to me but only the a-dial version. As for the Archimede, the 18 inch strap seems fairly small for a 42 inch watch which I wasn't crazy about. I'm probably going for the Stowa for the better movement and the better price. Since there's already been a Laco price hike I don't have to worry about another one until next year so if I want to get one I can just wait.


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## mrroey (Dec 10, 2013)

If you are still considering the Paderhorn, LongIslandWatch still has it for $799 USD which is around 585 euros. Very reputable shop, purchased my Friedrichshafen from them a few months back.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

I ended up getting a pre-owned Laco Munster from a WUS seller for a really good price. It really is a fantastic piece and it doesn't look too big for my wrist which I initially thought would be a problem.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

Just for fun here it is!


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## hbk75 (Dec 25, 2006)

holyk said:


> I think they make excellent watches. That being said I'm probably going to get the Stowa flieger instead now. Even though I recognize that the styles are incomparable, being able to get a decorated top grade ETA 2824 for slightly less is a non-trivial factor for me. Hopefully I won't end up regretting it.


I have a Laco B dial purchased back in 2010. Prices were quite good then and I got the manual winding version. Prices were the same between manual or automatic movements during those days. I can get 2 units now comparing to the prices I paid 3 years ago. Received a Stowa A dial with chronometer grade movement (with certificate) sometime in dec 2012. Like both of these watches so far. The price I have paid for the stowa is doubled of what I've paid for the laco in 2010. Seems like Laco are more expensive these days. :-d


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## Chris-John (Mar 24, 2011)

The Stowa A dial doesn't even lume every minute marker. I've got both, but it consider the Stowa is a dress watch with a pilot style. The laco 45mm would have been adequate for Luftwaffe navigators to have used.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

hbk75 said:


> Seems like Laco are more expensive these days. :-d


It seems like it because it actually is the case! :-d

To be fair though they have stepped up their game in some respects like the thermally blued hands. And seriously the bead blasting is super comfortable! The touch is so smooth to my wrist. Also I really resent how some posts blast the bead blasting for looking as though it was painted on. The fine grain detail of the steel is so amazing that there's no mistaking that. I like my A-dial so much I'm thinking of going for the B.

My only problem with my laco is how straight the casing is. Sometimes it hurts my wrist when it moves around too much and tries to go to the underside of my wrist.


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## sci (Aug 6, 2009)

Yesterday I went to a juwilier in Heidelberg/Germany and saw almost all the models still on 2012 prices. Was thinking to buy them all and sell them on speculative prices here in the forum


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

I liked my Munster so much I got him a friend.









They feel and look so damn good I don't even know why I had a conundrum between Laco and Stowa in the first place. :-d


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## franksf (Apr 12, 2012)

The best kind...!!


holyk said:


> I liked my Munster so much I got him a friend.
> 
> View attachment 1367604
> 
> ...


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## Horologic (Apr 26, 2012)

Since I don't own one yet, I'm really disappointed to hear about this. 

I simply don't find it believable they had to raise the price so much because of increased costs. I'm sure that's a smokescreen. They're just trying to position their brand higher up the food chain. Which isn't illegal or anything, but still. Glad to see Long Island Watches have some left at the old price.

Although I wouldn't buy one in place of a Laco, Stowa does seem to offer a better value now. Better grade movement, etc.


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## sci (Aug 6, 2009)

Yes, but Stowa increased the price too.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

sci said:


> Yes, but Stowa increased the price too.


They haven't yet for this year. A Stowa with top grade movement is 790 Euros compared to a Laco with an elabore which is 850 Euros now. Of course the style are not comparable so I think the prices are not the final factor when deciding between them.


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## Moffett (Nov 12, 2012)

Unfortunately, due to the harsh reaction of a few people when Laco attempted to find an alternative to the dwindling supply of ETA movements. A large price hike was justified. 


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## sci (Aug 6, 2009)

I think the reaction against depa was not unjustified. None of the other German competitors went with such unproved solution, still keeping the price range of Laco. It almost ruined the image of Laco watches, which they gained in the last 3-4 years.


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## Horologic (Apr 26, 2012)

Moffett said:


> Unfortunately, due to the harsh reaction of a few people when Laco attempted to find an alternative to the dwindling supply of ETA movements. A large price hike was justified.


How does going from an ETA 2824 to an equal grade Sellita SW200 justify a 200 Euro increase ?

If you order them factory direct without VAT included, a Paderborn is 10 Euro more than a Stowa Flieger with optional TOP grade movement and blue screws.


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## Moffett (Nov 12, 2012)

Obviously I don't know any facts. But from what I hear, purchasing a Stowa comes with a very long wait time. Perhaps Stowa produces much smaller numbers of watches and can simply wait for a supply of ETA movements to get the cheapest price available. Laco on the other hand produces lots of watches mostly all with this one specific movement. And as a result of having a much higher demand, and a much higher manufacturing rate. They have to pay a premium on the supply they receive. For all I know they might be having to source movements from other watch builders. Since ETA will not supply a single brand with more than a few at a time. 
This is all speculation of course. But it is the most logical scenario IMO.


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## jcatkc (Nov 12, 2013)

Moffett said:


> Obviously I don't know any facts. But from what I hear, purchasing a Stowa comes with a very long wait time.


From Stowa's website, when trying to order a B-Uhr, either the A or B type >



> 1. ETA 2824-2 *BASIC* (deliverable mid of July 2014)
> 
> 2. ETA 2824-2 *TOP* (deliverable mid of April 2014)
> 
> 3. ETA 2824-2 *TOP* with *blued screws* (deliverable mid of April 2014]


Note that option 2 adds 80 euros to the price, while option 3 adds 130.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Can't say that I understand all of this speculation, which incidentally is probably way off base. There are myriad factors behind manufacturer's price hikes; maybe it is to cover increased overhead costs, an upgrade in manufacturing equipment, staff expansion, or to increase product development. Who knows? Well, those at Laco know -and we can't expect them to discuss such matters - which is why guessing about it just seems like a waste of time to me. There is one thing that would be safe to assume: There is more to these price increases than just the cost or availability of the movement being used.


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## holyk (Jan 3, 2014)

Uwe W. said:


> Can't say that I understand all of this speculation, which incidentally is probably way off base. There are myriad factors behind manufacturer's price hikes; maybe it is to cover increased overhead costs, an upgrade in manufacturing equipment, staff expansion, or to increase product development. Who knows? Well, those at Laco know -and we can't expect them to discuss such matters - which is why guessing about it just seems like a waste of time to me. There is one thing that would be safe to assume: There is more to these price increases than just the cost or availability of the movement being used.


I agree with this considering they increased the Paderborn price but not the Leipzig and both use ETA movements. They might just be normalizing their profits.


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## MichaelKG (Apr 18, 2013)

Haven't been reading the forums much lately so I'm a bit late on the matter. I'm happy I bought the watch when it still had the ETA movement and before the price increase happened. I always thought this was a bang for buck watch, so I'm happy with my purchase, but I wouldn't pull the trigger on one anymore. 

Sounds crazy or maybe illogical but at 850 euro I would start looking at higher end watches to purchase and probably go for an Omega Speedmaster which costs 2 to 3 times it as much. But that's just me.


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## VinnieVegas (Mar 7, 2015)

mrroey said:


> If you are still considering the Paderhorn, LongIslandWatch still has it for $799 USD which is around 585 euros. Very reputable shop, purchased my Friedrichshafen from them a few months back.


MrRoey,

Please check your messages. deleted my mod Thanks!


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