# Watch runs face down ?



## fkane (Feb 11, 2006)

Advice needed! 
I have a vintage mechanical watch which I purchased not running, for the purpose of taking apart to learn. The watch appears to be from the 50's and the movement is marked Harper Watch Co Seven Jewels. I have found that it does run when placed face down but when turned over it promptly stops. In the unlikely event that I don't damage or lose any parts in this first encounter, I may as well try to fix it. I'm looking for advice as to what might cause this situation and suggested repair.

Thanks

Kane Waltrop


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## marc_wl (Feb 11, 2006)

fkane said:


> Advice needed!
> I have a vintage mechanical watch which I purchased not running, for the purpose of taking apart to learn. The watch appears to be from the 50's and the movement is marked Harper Watch Co Seven Jewels. I have found that it does run when placed face down but when turned over it promptly stops. In the unlikely event that I don't damage or lose any parts in this first encounter, I may as well try to fix it. I'm looking for advice as to what might cause this situation and suggested repair.
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Hi,

I am bit embarassed to give an advice because I am really not an expert! -X) but since I am on line...

I would say that the symptoma indicates a problem with on pivot/jewel of the balance wheel :roll:. Maybe just sticky old oil on that side, may be a missed counter jewel on that pivot or a displaced shock-protecting spring if the watch is shock protected. If you are decided to service completely the watch (I recommend that "sport" of course;-)) you will control in particular that pivot.

Good luck and kind regards.

Marc


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I would take a toothpick and VERY GENTLY fiddle with the balance wheel without touching the hairspring. The balance should go up and down a bit and wobble even less than that - only enough so that you just notice. If it wobbles too much, the pivot at the dial-side end will be broken. There is no cure for this except a replacement. It would have to be the dial side since you say that the watch runs well enough while dial-up - the back pivot will then be sitting in its jewel and the balance will work in a similar way to a "flying tourbillon" (only hinged at one end).

I hope that the watch will just be totally gummed up dial-side or that an end stone will be missing - broken balance staff pivots are a downright pain and have been the death of many a vintage watch if a suitable replacement can't be found. I have several of that type, unfortunately.

Hartmut Richter


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## fkane (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks Marc and Hartmut,

I spent yesterday taking apart and putting back togeather parts of the watch. (easy apart, painful togeather) I did not remove the balance but did remove the jewl caps and jewls and could see points under. Today I'll revisit with your advice. It was only a One dollar watch but after spending eight hours with it I've become fond of it. I think I'll poke at it first as you suggest Hartmut as I think removal may cause more damage at my level.

Kane


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## fkane (Feb 11, 2006)

*Update & Have I Killed It?*

Well I must say, Sunday proved to be quite a learning experience! I poked at the balance wheel and it both tilted and moved up and down. I proceded to remove it to have a look. Long story short, I now have knocked the pallet stones free of the lever and broke the tip off of one, as well as broken the ruby pin off the balance staff. Good news, I can now understand better the chapter "lever escapement, examination and correction" !!

Now the Question. Should I bag up the watch until my skill advances to replace the stones and pins. Or should I continue the disasembly project to further the learning. I am leaning towards continue since I'm learning a lot and I expect to break many more watches in order to continue to advance. In short, I am not sure what is to be expected of a new person with their first watch.

Thanks

Kane Waltrop


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## Valdus (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Update & Have I Killed It?*

Now that you broke it, you can take it apart completely and reassemble it and learn how to do it.
Careful not to break something else though.
If you don't have a good feeling of fine mechanics I would suggest you stop here
.


fkane said:


> Well I must say, Sunday proved to be quite a learning experience! I poked at the balance wheel and it both tilted and moved up and down. I proceded to remove it to have a look. Long story short, I now have knocked the pallet stones free of the lever and broke the tip off of one, as well as broken the ruby pin off the balance staff. Good news, I can now understand better the chapter "lever escapement, examination and correction" !!
> 
> Now the Question. Should I bag up the watch until my skill advances to replace the stones and pins. Or should I continue the disasembly project to further the learning. I am leaning towards continue since I'm learning a lot and I expect to break many more watches in order to continue to advance. In short, I am not sure what is to be expected of a new person with their first watch.
> 
> ...


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Update & Have I Killed It?*

Hi -

Absolutely keep on going. You've probably killed the watch, but it's now a great practice one. Practice 'till you get the basic disassembly over in just a few minutes, it'll be good practice for the next one you take apart...

Me, I might try that myself on the weekend with another watch, not the Stowa I'm waiting for tools on...

JohnF


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## touco (Mar 16, 2006)

There are many possible reasons for a watch running dial up and not dial down. Supposing the balance pivots is not broken you may have worn pivots, too much endshake, hairspring not flat and touching balance cock or center wheel , or simply top jewel not in right position.... It's possible to set a jewel pallet and it's not too much difficult if the shellac is still here but if you have broken the pallet there is no chance to have the movement run again, expect if you have a remplacement. So, as it can't be worst, why not finish the job ?

Regards


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## fkane (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks to all for the feedback. 

I continued yesterday with much quality learning and No more broken parts!! A couple of questions if I may. I got to the mainspring and it looks like a complete assembly. By that I mean, there is the top gear with shaft coming out, the barrel, and a flat bottom plate with a semi-circilar hole in it. I can see the spring through the hole but I don't know how it is to be taken apart. I poked at it but did not want to break it. Also on the escape wheel shaft there is a gear on the end, opposite the wheel, ok it engages into the mainspring gear, but just above the wheel is another gear same size and there is not a gear around it. Did i miss something? 

For laughs, last Saturday when removing the transmission gear I found the screw was very hard to loosen but I continued with much energy. Once I finally had it loose I found it would not tighten! Did I find the only screw with left hand thread!!


Kane


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I also want to learn more about disassembling, cleaning and reassembling watches and have so far learnt the hard way - by trashing the first few movements I took apart!! I think everyone does, especially if self-taught, out of books rather than by a specialist. I have become better by now and have actually succeeded several times! Just a few bits of advice from my own experience:

1. The transmission wheel screw is usually unscrewed clockwise - the only one that turns that way. That's why it's marked by having three grooves rather than just one. Turning it counterclockwise will usually leave the thread sitting in the hole - i.e. bugger not only the screw but also block the hole so you have to drill it out or get a new bridge.

2. Getting the mainspring out of the barrel is easy, getting it back in without damaging it is near-impossible if you don't have a special winding tool. Just lever the back off with the help of a screwdriver or similar tool in that small notch you mentioned and try to clean and reoil the mainspring as best as you can without removing it.

3. When diassembling the movement, always replace the screw as soon as a part has come off - otherwise, you don't know which screw goes into which hole when you are reassembling.

4. When reassembling the geartrain and balance system, it is extremely easy to break a pivot when the wheel isn't quite sitting right in the hole and you screw down the bridge (or cock) onto it. That's why multi-cock movements with one for each gear wheel (e.g. the new Cartier movements) are much easier to reassemble - only one wheel to worry about each time you are screwing down! (All this intended in a technical way, of course - no pornography here!!). In the majority of movements, the geartrain bridge has always given me the greatest problems and if anything breaks, it is usually the escapement wheel.

Good luck and keep trying!!

Hartmut Richter


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## fkane (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi Hartmut,

Thanks for the pointers and the words of encouragement! I am going to start putting the screws back right away, one less thing to keep track of. One thing I started was if the bridge was not all the way set down not to put the screws in but as you said not as easy when only one screw.

Kane Waltrop


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## Fernandez (Sep 7, 2021)

fkane said:


> Advice needed!
> I have a vintage mechanical watch which I purchased not running, for the purpose of taking apart to learn. The watch appears to be from the 50's and the movement is marked Harper Watch Co Seven Jewels. I have found that it does run when placed face down but when turned over it promptly stops. In the unlikely event that I don't damage or lose any parts in this first encounter, I may as well try to fix it. I'm looking for advice as to what might cause this situation and suggested repair.
> 
> Thanks
> ...


Sometimes the cause of this watch problem is the twisted hairspring.


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## ExpiredWatchdog (Feb 13, 2019)

Sometimes you just have to wait fifteen years and they get better all by themselves.


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