# ETA PreciDrive - information needed



## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi all,

I got a little lost here.
Can someone please explain to me whether ETA's PreciDrive quartz calibres are thermocompensated or not.

The movement I am really interested in is the E64.111, as I assume this is what Omega uses in the new Aqua Terra quartz (cal. 4564).
From what I found on www.eta.ch:

_"PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c. This precision can be achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle, which controls and regulates the motor pulses according to changes in the ambient temperature. By virtue of combining the quartz and integrated circuit in the same waterproof case, the precision is insensitive to moisture."

_On the other hand, E64.111 is not part of the thermoline family.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

shtora said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I got a little lost here.
> Can someone please explain to me whether ETA's PreciDrive quartz calibres are thermocompensated or not.
> ...


If it's PreciDrive then it's TC, irrespective of the 'family'. I think that all PreciDrives also include the PowerDrive technology, but there are some models that are offered both as Preci+Power and as Power only.

What they appear to be doing is to release some lower cost, reduced feature PreciDrive movements that are just basic 3-handers, without any other complications (maybe date). We have already found that the F06.411 doesn't have an independent hour hand (and almost certainly not a perpetual calendar).

Unfortunately ETA don't currently appear to have fully documented all the PD movements, so we're seeing a load of new stuff announced on their website plus other movements actually being released in Certina watches.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

The way the penultimate sentence is structured makes me wonder if PreciDrive is really claiming that the movement is thermocompensated or if it is indulging in some weasel-wording to make the reader think it is. "achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle..." looks like weasel-wording to me. And so does "...can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification..." Is it certified or are they just claiming that it would pass if it were tested?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Does anyone have an "in" in ETA to ask for those details?


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## Sabresoft (Dec 1, 2010)

artec said:


> The way the penultimate sentence is structured makes me wonder if PreciDrive is really claiming that the movement is thermocompensated or if it is indulging in some weasel-wording to make the reader think it is. "achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle..." looks like weasel-wording to me. And so does "...can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification..." Is it certified or are they just claiming that it would pass if it were tested?


My (non-COSC tested) DS2 is showing something in the order of 2-4 SPY. A COSC certified calibre will be more expensive due to the testing. The non-COSC are probably just as good as the COSC version, but just didn't bother "writing the final exam" so to speak.

But I do find the idea of Precidrive models in ranges other than the Thermoline rather confusing.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

artec said:


> And so does "...can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification..." Is it certified or are they just claiming that it would pass if it were tested?


I think the latter. If you look at the currently nine models of the Certina DS-2 chrono, only one has the COSC certificate, but they are all presented as capable of +/-10 SPY. It is inconceivable (to me) that they are selling watches with two different versions of the ETA 251.264, especially as most of the reported results here are well within 10 seconds.

Whether we will see something similar from the more recent PD movements - Flatline, Thermoline, or whatever - is anybody's guess.


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

Hi all,

I received the answer from Omega to my question whether cal. 4564, used in Aqua Terra 231.10.39.60.06.001, is thermocompensated. The answer was: "231.10.39.60.06.001 is not thermocompensated".
So, whatever ETA this movement is, it is not HAQ.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

shtora said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I received the answer from Omega to my question whether cal. 4564, used in Aqua Terra 231.10.39.60.06.001, is thermocompensated. The answer was: "231.10.39.60.06.001 is not thermocompensated".
> So, whatever ETA this movement is, it is not HAQ.


Did you have any reason to suggest in your first post that the Omega 4564 is in fact an ETA E64.111? If it is, there is not necessarily a contradiction from Omega, as the E64.111 exists in two versions - PD and non-PD.

Apart from the X-33 (maybe) and the Z-33, Omega doesn't appear to have had any interest in TC since the two Constellation Perpetual Calendar models, and before them a 200M WR Seamaster. They just seem to offer standard quartz as a lower-cost alternative to auto in some models.


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

chris01 said:


> Did you have any reason to suggest in your first post that the Omega 4564 is in fact an ETA E64.111?


The only reason was that somebody stated so in a thread here. But I can't remember the thread.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

According to the Omega Boutique here, the Z-33 is TC, though apparently Omega offers no accuracy spec. They didn't seem to know much about it....except the price. Do we know whether the new X-33, the Skywalker, is TC? I can't find anything that says yea or nay. It's certainly a huge improvement in terms of looks over the Z-33, at least to my eyes.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I will ask at my boutique about the Z-33 on my next visit.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

artec said:


> According to the Omega Boutique here, the Z-33 is TC, though apparently Omega offers no accuracy spec. They didn't seem to know much about it....except the price. Do we know whether the new X-33, the Skywalker, is TC? I can't find anything that says yea or nay. It's certainly a huge improvement in terms of looks over the Z-33, at least to my eyes.


On the Omega web site (and I suppose they should know) the Z-33's 5666 movement is described as TC:
OMEGA Watches: Speedmaster Spacemaster Z-33 Chronograph 43 x 53.mm - Titanium on rubber strap - 325.92.43.79.01.001

and the X-33 Skywalker's 5619 is also TC (bottom of the page):
OMEGA Watches: Speedmaster Skywalker X-33
This one looks rather good - less visually challenging than the original X-33 (and the new Z-33) and probably a lot more usable than the ergonomic nightmare Aerospace.

As you say, though, absolutely no info about accuracy for either.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

Entirely agree about the Skywalker's looks and layout...I might even spend the money if I had any confidence in the realistic accuracy. The two watches I wear now are the right size, the right accuracy and they have the right looks....if they are to be displaced by a single, much more expensive, watch, I'd need to have accuracy figures and it would need to tick more boxes than it seems to at the moment.

Edit: I like the fact that you can turn the digital read-outs off, but I just found out that it's 45mm in diameter. I don't think I can wear that big a watch...it's 6 or 7mm (15%) bigger than my present ones.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

artec said:


> Entirely agree about the Skywalker's looks and layout...I might even spend the money if I had any confidence in the realistic accuracy. The two watches I wear now are the right size, the right accuracy and they have the right looks....if they are to be displaced by a single, much more expensive, watch, I'd need to have accuracy figures and it would need to tick more boxes than it seems to at the moment.


It's currently advertised in the UK by Watches of Switzerland at £3720. No idea whether they actually have it available. That's double the most I've ever spent on a watch and there's no way to justify it for me. A bit big at 45mm but very nice, I think. You just need to grow a third arm.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Even if I had the funds I expect the Z-33 and X-33 to be not within the HAQ spec.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

@Ronaldheld
Even though they're both tc? 
Does anyone know which ETA movement the X-33 Skywalker uses? If we knew that, we might be able to deduce the peformance from that of other watches that use the same movement.


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## hughesyn (Oct 9, 2014)

ronalddheld said:


> Even if I had the funds I expect the Z-33 and X-33 to be not within the HAQ spec.


I thought all of the current TC ETA movements acheive around 10 spy?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

artec said:


> @Ronaldheld
> Even though they're both tc?
> Does anyone know which ETA movement the X-33 Skywalker uses? If we knew that, we might be able to deduce the peformance from that of other watches that use the same movement.


The tech guide for z-33 caliber 5666 and x-33 skywalker caliber 5619 lists both as TC but quotes no specs. I can try to remember to ask at the local OMEGA boutique next week.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I checked at my Omega boutique. According to the sales manuals both are listed as TC circuitry but with no spec listed.


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

I sent an email to Omega, asking if Movement 4564 is identical with ETA64.111 and therefore thermocompensated.
Today, after one month (!) i got the answer that since Nov. 2014 ETA64.111 is used as base for 4564 and that it is thermocompensated and high-precision.

Can anybody confirm that too? If it's true - this would make the Aqua Terra quite interesting, i think! (at least to me)

Additionally i will ask my AD when i'm downtown for the next time. Maybe they have some additional information in their service documents.


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## hughesyn (Oct 9, 2014)

Quarzer said:


> I sent an email to Omega, asking if Movement 4564 is identical with ETA64.111 and therefore thermocompensated.
> Today, after one month (!) i got the answer that since Nov. 2014 ETA64.111 is used as base for 4564 and that it is thermocompensated and high-precision.
> 
> Can anybody confirm that too? If it's true - this would make the Aqua Terra quite interesting, i think! (at least to me)
> ...


Unfortunately since 2014 Omega also downgraded the Aqua Terra Quartz. In particular, the markers are not applied like the old model and mech versions.
I suggest you go to an AD and hold a new model quartz next to an 8500. The difference is profound and disappointing. It just goes to show the disdain that Omega has for quartz.

The old AT quartz:








The new AT quartz:


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

hughesyn said:


> Unfortunately since 2014 Omega also downgraded the Aqua Terra Quartz. In particular, the markers are not applied like the old model and mech versions.
> I suggest you go to an AD and hold a new model quartz next to an 8500. The difference is profound and disappointing. It just goes to show the disdain that Omega has for quartz.


Yes, i noticed that. But if Omega actually changed the caliber to HAQ this may compensate the downgrade in design.
On the other hand Omega is part of the Swatch-Group, and they developed a complete new range of Precidrive calibers.
So the Quartz technology is not abandoned by this concern.


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

Quarzer said:


> I sent an email to Omega, asking if Movement 4564 is identical with ETA64.111 and therefore thermocompensated.
> Today, after one month (!) i got the answer that since Nov. 2014 ETA64.111 is used as base for 4564 and that it is thermocompensated and high-precision.
> 
> Can anybody confirm that too? If it's true - this would make the Aqua Terra quite interesting, i think! (at least to me)
> ...


This would be great!
Although, I find it confusing, as I received exactly the opposite reply from Omega.


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

shtora said:


> Although, I find it confusing, as I received exactly the opposite reply from Omega.


Me too!
Your post was one of the reasons i wrote to Omega, cause i found different statements in the internet about 4564.
Did you wrote directly to Omega in Switzerland too?


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes, I did. And they forwarded the enquiry to the local AD.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

hughesyn said:


> Unfortunately since 2014 Omega also downgraded the Aqua Terra Quartz. In particular, the markers are not applied like the old model and mech versions.
> I suggest you go to an AD and hold a new model quartz next to an 8500. The difference is profound and disappointing. It just goes to show the disdain that Omega has for quartz.


I have the mechanical (8500) model, the blue dialed version, aka Skyfall. Mine has the polished frame around the date window.

You are correct, the look of the quartz model is, shall we say, 'down scale' compared to the mechanical variant. As far as accuracy, of course a mechanical watch will not be as accurate as a HAQ watch (or any quartz watch in general) but my particular unit is with 10 sec/month. That is not a misprint. It's better than some of my quartz watches.

Apparently I got the lime of the bunch. The look alone was what sold me so having less than 15 sec/mo accuracy from a mechanical was gravy. If you want this model do yourself a favor and look at the mechanical version too, the looks might bring you over to 'the dark side'.


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

shtora said:


> Yes, I did. And they forwarded the enquiry to the local AD.


So you got the answer by your local AD. I got it from Omega directly.
Would be interesting to know who is right...


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

Sources:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/32476775/calibre-4564-cousins-uk

https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DefaultDesktop.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=28


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

Thanks! These are perfect informations, especially the Omega Service Manual.
Unfortunately even there it is not mentioned if the calibre is thermocompensated or not.

At first look i thought it could also be the E64.041. This is the non-thermocompensated version of E64.111
and it looks identical on the backside, but it has no seconds hand!















Considering all the information we have now one may declare: 
*The Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra with caliber 4564 is a new, proud member of the exclusive HAQ watches club!*


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

Quarzer said:


> Thanks! These are perfect informations, especially the Omega Service Manual.
> Unfortunately even there it is not mentioned if the calibre is thermocompensated or not.
> 
> At first look i thought it could also be the E64.041. This is the non-thermocompensated version of E64.111
> ...


Well spotted!


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## everose (Jan 15, 2010)

ronalddheld said:


> The tech guide for z-33 caliber 5666 and x-33 skywalker caliber 5619 lists both as TC but quotes no specs. I can try to remember to ask at the local OMEGA boutique next week.





ronalddheld said:


> I checked at my Omega boutique. According to the sales manuals both are listed as TC circuitry but with no spec listed.


I always thought it interesting and rather strange how 'modern' Omega seems to be so 'hush, hush' about the performance and detailed specs of their modern TC quartz models.
The only plausible explanation i could think of is that they are perhaps reluctant (maybe slightly paranoid even!) to state anything which they feel may show their 'Crown Jewels' (co-axial mechanicals) to be perceived as being at a disadvantage in any.way.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Quarzer said:


> Thanks! These are perfect informations, especially the Omega Service Manual.
> Unfortunately even there it is not mentioned if the calibre is thermocompensated or not.
> 
> At first look i thought it could also be the E64.041. This is the non-thermocompensated version of E64.111
> ...


You should be aware that, according to ETA's tech doc for the E64.111, it is available in both PreciDrive and non-PreciDrive versions. I've no idea how you can distinguish them.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

chris01 said:


> I've no idea how you can distinguish them.


Treat yourself to a spa day and wear the watch in the sauna for a few hours. Then take it apart and check for moisture.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Tom-HK said:


> Treat yourself to a spa day and wear the watch in the sauna for a few hours. Then take it apart and check for moisture.


I was just thinking the same thing.  But aren't we more concerned with accuracy than steam-proofing?


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

chris01 said:


> I was just thinking the same thing.  But aren't we more concerned with accuracy than steam-proofing?


Well then, have a beer while you're in the sauna. Make 'accuracy' a properly impossible thing to judge and then you can get back to focussing other things that make a HAQ worth having. Can the Omega movement be recalibrated?

(edit: sorry, a glass or two of wine on a hot summer's evening has perhaps caused me to lose proper focus on the primary purpose of our existence, for a while. Of course you must take a stopwatch and a tablet with wi-fi link to an NTP source into the sauna, too)


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## everose (Jan 15, 2010)

chris01 said:


> ......according to ETA's tech doc for the E64.111, it is available in both PreciDrive and non-PreciDrive versions. I've no idea how you can distinguish them.


That seems weird although I'm sure you will be correct (and also much more familiar with that ETA website than i am) but all i can see about E64.111 relates to it being a Precidrive mvt?!!


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

chris01 said:


> You should be aware that, according to ETA's tech doc for the E64.111, it is available in both PreciDrive and non-PreciDrive versions. I've no idea how you can distinguish them.


You may refer to the Eta Documentation one can find in the bottom of this post or recall here: https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DefaultDesktop.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=28 
I read these documentations for several calibers, and under point 9 "Performance", they _all_ contain identical informations for both Precidrive and non-Precidrive specifications simultaneously, problably because of simplification.

If you look in ETA's new catalogue, you can detect that all the new Precidrive calibers are available in Precidrive and non-Precidrive,
but the non-Precidrive versions have a different reference code and no seconds hand.
http://www.eta.ch/fileadmin/downloads/ETA_Quartz_2015.pdf

It's a clever trick to give the "inaccurate" calibers no seconds hands...


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## Quarzer (Apr 26, 2015)

everose said:


> I always thought it interesting and rather strange how 'modern' Omega seems to be so 'hush, hush' about the performance and detailed specs of their modern TC quartz models.
> The only plausible explanation i could think of is that they are perhaps reluctant (maybe slightly paranoid even!) to state anything which they feel may show their 'Crown Jewels' (co-axial mechanicals) to be perceived as being at a disadvantage in any.way.


I think so too.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

Reading the ETA E64.111 documents I came across:









Which I think is quite funny. The 'initial' in it says a lot.


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## everose (Jan 15, 2010)

Hans Moleman said:


> .....The 'initial' in it says a lot.


If you mean by 'says a lot' that it maybe indicative of some 'inherent issues' then I'm highly doubtful of that. I think its far more likely to be nothing more than a case of 'engineering honesty,' the likes of which we are really not used to seeing anymore.
Any sentence exposed to public gaze which has not been breathed on by 'the marketing dept' (even within the dark and dusty corners of a spec doc) seems to be quite a rare find these days. I think this may simply be one of those finds.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

everose said:


> If you mean by 'says a lot' that it maybe indicative of some 'inherent issues' then I'm highly doubtful of that. I think its far more likely to be nothing more than a case of 'engineering honesty,' the likes of which we are really not used to seeing anymore.
> Any sentence exposed to public gaze which has not been breathed on by 'the marketing dept' (even within the dark and dusty corners of a spec doc) seems to be quite a rare find these days. I think this may simply be one of those finds.


I was being cynical but not _that_ cynical. I fully respect ETA and their products. 
I think they are referring to ageing but avoid mentioning the elephant in the room.

And the funny part is that I like to think that we, HAQ members can take the blame.
Somehow the customers started taking these seconds very seriously, and were even returning their watches because of it. Now what is the story here? Without mentioning elephants?

The engineers are in a very difficult position. I agree: All credit to them for that sentence.


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## jcwelch (Jul 3, 2016)

ronalddheld said:


> Even if I had the funds I expect the Z-33 and X-33 to be not within the HAQ spec.


I purchased an X-33 Solar Impulse October 2016. It has been through two Harvest Moon Regattas, crossed the Atlantic via sail on the 2016 Atlantic Rally for Cruisers, been my daily driver - I work, sleep, shower, swim, race sailboats, etc wearing it; I commonly go three weeks with out taking it off. After all that it is 7 (seven) seconds slow. Your mileage may vary....


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

everose said:


> That seems weird although I'm sure you will be correct (and also much more familiar with that ETA website than i am) but all i can see about E64.111 relates to it being a Precidrive mvt?!!





Hans Moleman said:


> Reading the ETA E64.111 documents I came across:
> 
> View attachment 4163466
> 
> ...


That is some good info. Thanks! 
It answers a question I had about whether the 10 SPY is for just for the COSC @ 23 C or if it's over a temp range. I'm interpreting the "initial" as without aging as you suggest on a following post. If this is correct, then the TC is very good at maintaining a constant rate over a fairly wide temp range of 20C - 30C. 10SPY is what I'm experiencing with my Certina DS-Action COSC with no temp deviation. At 70 F, my wrist temp is 94 F, (33 C). A little outside this range, but I think the crystal is kinda insolated. So on the wrist it probably won't deviate too much.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

everose said:


> That seems weird although I'm sure you will be correct (and also much more familiar with that ETA website than i am) but all i can see about E64.111 relates to it being a Precidrive mvt?!!





Quarzer said:


> I sent an email to Omega, asking if Movement 4564 is identical with ETA64.111 and therefore thermocompensated.
> Today, after one month (!) i got the answer that since Nov. 2014 ETA64.111 is used as base for 4564 and that it is thermocompensated and high-precision.
> 
> Can anybody confirm that too? If it's true - this would make the Aqua Terra quite interesting, i think! (at least to me)
> ...


Crazy how Omega is so Secretive about their Quartz movements, and don't just publish it. I guess they swap movements out a lot and just don't want to commit to it.

I notice that the Omega version of the E64.111 is Rhodium Plated! Nice touch... The E series is the highest line of ETAs Quartz Precidrives (8 Jewels). FYI, Longines also uses this caliber in their watches (Conquest). I don't know of any other Brands that use it. Certina uses the mid level F series precidrives (3 Jewels) and probably also in the Tissot COSC watches.


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