# WCL: Zenith Repair Nightmare



## joshd2012 (Apr 2, 2018)

I've read some horror stories on this forum, but this is pretty bad:









From the Editor: LVMH Service Center Turns the Warranty Repair of My Zenith DEFY El Primero 21 Into a Nightmare — WATCH COLLECTING LIFESTYLE


One watch topic that remains undiscussed is after-sales service and how the luxury watch brands handle warranty and non-warranty repairs. As a watch collector for 30 years now, I have dealt with different authorized service centers almost a dozen times. I have sent watches in for repair in the U.S.




www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com





I having very conflicting thoughts about the company after reading this. It's a lot of money to spend to get poor service


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## jvi1 (Aug 4, 2019)

I am owner of a Defy21. Love the watch, BUT "service" like this is absolute No-Go. Embarrassed  LVHM. It's a expensive watch. Never had any issues with my watches, but hope for sure first time will be another brand (than Zenith)...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## GreatScott (Nov 19, 2016)

I see these type things with all brands, and each time I can’t believe it. It just takes a minimum of effort to do the job right. I am glad the editor keeps sending it back, without financial pain these brands will not learn a lesson.


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## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

Not saying any of that was acceptable, but some people are insane about servicing ;looking for every possible detail to incriminate the service center.
I don't know why this is surprising. The person you call on the phone isn't the one working on the watch, there's plenty of room for miscommunication and bureaucratic error. I have never had the expectation (regardless of product cost) that warranty /service is going to be some pleasant, trouble-free experience. Perhaps I am just cynical.

Any time you hand your stuff to someone else, you are subject to the difference between your standards and theirs. 

No one is going to take care of your stuff the way you do.

It shouldn't surprise anyone that the company would not only be suspicious of damage claims, but also make the (reasonable) claim that the damage is cosmetic, because it is. I can understand the disappointment, but LVMH isn't going to start giving people new cases because they put a hairline scratch on the inside of a lug.
There's a difference to people like us, but not to them.

Lots of speculation and open ends that need resolution before any lasting conclusion can be made. 

I'll take it as a one-off for now. No evidence that this is the standard of affairs for LVMH service. I doubt they (LVMH) felt it went well either.


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## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

joshd2012 said:


> I've read some horror stories on this forum, but this is pretty bad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some people just beg for bad service. I don't know how they do it, but I've seen it many times. These kinds of people seem to get bad service from everything. There's one thing in common in all cases.


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## charles_springfield (Jun 30, 2016)

"Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem."

It was hard to read anything after that statement...


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## h2c (Dec 2, 2010)

teckel12 said:


> Some people just beg for bad service. I don't know how they do it, but I've seen it many times. These kinds of people seem to get bad service from everything. There's one thing in common in all cases.


what do you mean? what is common?


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## charles_springfield (Jun 30, 2016)

h2c said:


> what do you mean? what is common?


Probably means that some people are such a pain in the butt that people are the same back to them. The PITAs themselves are the common denominator.


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## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

Lol. Some of the people here are absolutely hilarious. This man sent in a $13,000 watch for servicing, _under warranty_, it came back with excess oil, a scratched movement and a nick on the bezel, and a second time where he received a swapped movement, and you're blaming _him_ for the problem? That's not how you treat customers.

I recently sent my Type 3 in as I suspected it was slightly low on oil, and I wore it pretty heavily pre-pandemic and decided that I'd go for the service trip on the exact three year mark in anticipation of wearing it more during the summer. The watch was out of warranty, yet Ressence offered to cover overnight shipping, with extraordinarily detailed shipping instructions printed on the declaration form so you literally can't miss it. Prior to shipping, their technician contacted me about the issue to make sure I documented it properly, and the same morning that they received the watch I got an email informing me that they received the watch.

Three days later and I get a list of recommended and optional servicing items, with itemized costs. I approved all of them, and should get it back in another two weeks plus testing after reassembly. I'm not saying this because I think that they are awesome, but because when you are buying a luxury item and sending it in for repairs, this should be the _normal standard_ that one should hold companies up to.

The author's affiliations have no bearing on the way LVMH treated him. In fact, if he had to raise a stink and move heaven and earth to get a watch fixed that LVMH botched, imagine what that experience would be like for us plebs. After reading this I am pretty much ready to never buy a LVMH watch.


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## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

charles_springfield said:


> "Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem."
> 
> It was hard to read anything after that statement...


He gave them a disclaimer that he may be writing about the experience and sharing his thoughts publicly. IMO it's good courtesy if you have social media pull, to let the company know beforehand so that you're not springing a PR crisis on them. I guess he could have raised it after running into the first problem, but had LVMH not screwed up so dramatically, we'd also not be reading this post.


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## bmwpower (Oct 4, 2007)

charles_springfield said:


> "Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem."
> 
> It was hard to read anything after that statement...


Just the opposite. He gave them a heads up so he would get special treatment. Instead he got treated like any other customer (which is to say like crap). So if they don't care about VIPs, they definitely don't care about their avg customer.

I think the truth is, working in customer service is generally a low skill, low wage job and these people go about their day to day with the same attitude. The companies need to train their staff of rise above and give an experience that is reflective of their values and need to empower employees to make things right and be prepared to eat the loss from higher costs to deliver on an excellent experience. Employees should be punished on not delivering an excellent experience, not for putting through excess warranty claims instead of blaming customers...


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## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

I


Zhanming057 said:


> Lol. Some of the people here are absolutely hilarious. This man sent in a $13,000 watch for servicing, _under warranty_, it came back with excess oil, a scratched movement and a nick on the bezel, and a second time where he received a swapped movement, and you're blaming _him_ for the problem? That's not how you treat customers.
> 
> I recently sent my Type 3 in as I suspected it was slightly low on oil, and I wore it pretty heavily pre-pandemic and decided that I'd go for the service trip on the exact three year mark in anticipation of wearing it more during the summer. The watch was out of warranty, yet Ressence offered to cover overnight shipping, with extraordinarily detailed shipping instructions printed on the declaration form so you literally can't miss it. Prior to shipping, their technician contacted me about the issue to make sure I documented it properly, and the same morning that they received the watch I got an email informing me that they received the watch.
> 
> ...


I wish godd*mn luxury car dealer service were that good. Like "can you fix my stuff without breaking /damaging /scratching something else please?


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## charles_springfield (Jun 30, 2016)

Odd that both of you overlooked the obvious pomposity of the way he worded that sentence and instead directly proceeded to lecture on me on why he told LVMH that. Yeah I got why he pulled out the weiner measuring device... thank you.

No one's blaming this guy; in fact, I think everyone here understands the problem. Search through my posting history and you'll find a similar experience I had with SGUS (also in NJ) in regard to an Omega PO I had at the time.

That all said, I cringe while imagining how he conducted his direct communications with LVMH, whether through email or over the phone.


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## charles_springfield (Jun 30, 2016)

longtimelurker said:


> I
> 
> I wish godd*mn luxury car dealer service were that good. Like "can you fix my stuff without breaking /damaging /scratching something else please?


Had that happen too. Took an Infiniti into have a clutch pedal cylinder replaced under warranty and looked like someone took a jack hammer to the driver's side doorsill.


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## longtimelurker (Oct 16, 2020)

bmwpower said:


> Just the opposite. He gave them a heads up so he would get special treatment. Instead he got treated like any other customer (which is to say like crap). So if they don't care about VIPs, they definitely don't care about their avg customer.
> 
> I think the truth is, working in customer service is generally a low skill, low wage job and these people go about their day to day with the same attitude. The companies need to train their staff of rise above and give an experience that is reflective of their values and need to empower employees to make things right and be prepared to eat the loss from higher costs to deliver on an excellent experience. Employees should be punished on not delivering an excellent experience, not for putting through excess warranty claims instead of blaming customers...


It is also true that some customers are not very pleasant to deal with. So I would take this guy's account of the staff attitude and communication with a bit of skepticism. No excuses for the actual work, though.


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## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

longtimelurker said:


> It is also true that some customers are not very pleasant to deal with. So I would take this guy's account of the staff attitude and communication with a bit of skepticism. No excuses for the actual work, though.


I'd consider a multi-day delay in confirm receiving of the watch unacceptable communication in any case, but maybe I've spent too much time with indies that prefer phone calls.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

I just sent off a watch to LVMH yesterday. Let's see what happens. I've serviced my watch with them a total of 3 times. Once for warranty repair, and another time for full chrono rebuild due to water ingress - that rebuild showed erratic behavior and timing over 3 months of wear and had to go back for another rebuild which was covered under the 1 year service warranty.

I'll admit theres not a lot of transparency throughout the process. They contact you and give a total cost and ask for permission to proceed for which I ok cause I really had no other choice. My watch needed repair.

Its all or nothing, they don't give you an option to waive certain parts or replacements. When I got my watch back, they had replaced the dial and the watch hands, chrono hand and counter hands. The line items with the parts is reminiscent of the bill I got. It does name parts and service.

They sent back most all the original parts that were replaced and it didn't seem like they needed to. There was minor water ingress, so I'm assuming the watchmaker thought otherwise. Maybe they saw blemishes and discoloration on the rhodium plating.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

From the article its seems like the writer was expecting to be taken through every little thing that transpired and even naming technical watchmaking parts to the CS agent which they really have no clue about.

Not sure he's aware, but they have 2 levels of rebuilds-Maintenance (Partial) and Overhaul (Full)-across all types of Movements. His El Primero Type III is the most expensive to service. What transpires is communicated on the Tag Heuer Site (which is relevant for all LVMH watches.)

He got the Overhaul service which means they tore the whole thing down and rebuilt it. They will replace wear parts, but I don't get the sense they replace bridges, etc during these rebuilds-hence the replacement of the entire movement when he made mention of the scratches on the plates.

As mentioned by many, Big horology likes to replace vs repair (polish, etc) and reuse.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

Frankly the guy who wrote the article sounds like a bit of a knob. Rich, flexing, threats, anger. It sounds like the guy sort of stomped in there, demanded his way, and when various processes didn't work, he blew his self-important stack. It's a different point to the one about incompetent service, which is disappointing. But I have little sympathy for this guy and it's gone a long way to invalidating his therapy puff piece there.

Something to ponder: LVMH may be large, but Zenith (which does the work) sells 11,000 watches a year. It probably doesn't have more than a 100 or 150 employees. And I bet its service records are still written down in a big leather binder 

Here's my experience, in the UK:

Captain Dual Time - sent back for a slightly misaligned 24h hand. Returned within 4 weeks over Christmas, adjusted.
Pilot - out of warranty, requested replacement lugs with conventional spring bars. Took six weeks this time, but: watch also given a free partial service _and_ new strap supplied, free of charge (since the old one was too "bored out").


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

My experience with the LVMH service center in 2019-2020 (yes it lasted about nine months) went like this:
Choosing an approach to restoring a vintage A384

It pushed me to draft this:
Viable watch collecting in the age of servicing fiascos...

Experiences such as the one described in this thread or this ones in the links below further cement my conclusion that servicing threatens the viability of Zenith, but also most watch brands.
FedEx lost my watch -need some advice
Watch scratched up during service with Grand Seiko US

To those who blame the customer for having lousy service experiences, based on my personal track record with servicing, I have challenged myself to exercise some introspection to understand the situation better. I know that as a person I am quite detail oriented and that the condition of my watches is important to me, especially when I'm paying substantial amounts for them. I'm fairly certain that the majority of watch enthusiasts are similar, which is to say somewhat OCD. I try to balance that with being polite and patient with all service staff that I have dealings with. I'm sure that service staff have to deal with frequent bouts of outrage and excessive demands from customers, so it can't be an easy job.

However, I believe that there is a fundamental weakness in the servicing processes and outcomes for luxury watches. When it comes down to it, when I pay four figures to have a watch serviced I expect the hands to be aligned, the complications to function properly, the timekeeping to be better than when the watch was sent in, and not to have any glaring cosmetic issues like scratches on the dial, oil smudges on the movement/dial/under the crystal, new scratches under the lugs from strap removal, mangled screws, etc. Forum members that blame the customer for such events are not being reasonable. It is perfectly reasonable to expect these issues not to be created during servicing of mid tier to high end watches (say Rolex/Omega/Zenith level and up), especially for the cost of the product and service.

So if you're on the "blame the customer" side, just wait, some day it will happen to you too. At this rate, it's just a matter of time and of the frequency of your servicing interactions.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

The writer being an alleged jerk, doesn't excuse the Service Center for not establishing expectations and process transparency. Managing customer expectation and perceptions would put customers at ease.

I don't expect that a mechanical system that has to be deconstructed and rebuilt will not have some kind of evidence of tamper and wear to the screws and parts holding the thing together. The watch will never be pristine like it was when it left the factory brand new with shrink wrap, but the onus is on the service center to return it in the same or better condition than when received.

That's where their watchmakers need to employ some jeweler skills - so that when they do accidentally scratch a part, and it happens, they buff it out or re polish to minimize the effect.

Even so, the challenge is that not everyone agrees on what is acceptable refinishing. An example being those that prefer their watches not polished and refinished as it blunts the sharp edges of the machining or the perception that it removes too much material.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

It should also be taken into account that the LVMH service center for Zenith also serves Tag Heuer. I assume that both brands have a larger proportion of chronographs in the overall sales volumes. Also, they're releasing more and more complicated chronographs. Chronographs are some of the trickiest complications to service. Imagine working at that service center and trying to keep up to speed with all the new developments?

When I saw the release of Zenith's caliber 9004 and the new 3600 I felt glad that Zenith was innovating, but also a little concerned as to whether the new calibers would function well. I think that Zenith, Tag Heuer, and potentially most other brands in the industry, are getting ahead of themselves and releasing watches that they can't support properly. This has probably been the case for many years now, but I think that the scale and speed speed of this phenomenon is accelerating. The recent huge push for new models by Zenith could result in disasters in three to six years as the watches return for routine servicing.

In my opinion, the next quartz-style crisis will be the viability of the luxury mechanical watch due to servicing requirements.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> It should also be taken into account that the LVMH service center for Zenith also serves Tag Heuer. I assume that both brands have a larger proportion of chronographs in the overall sales volumes. Also, they're releasing more and more complicated chronographs. Chronographs are some of the trickiest complications to service. Imagine working at that service center and trying to keep up to speed with all the new developments?
> 
> When I saw the release of Zenith's caliber 9004 and the new 3600 I felt glad that Zenith was innovating, but also a little concerned as to whether the new calibers would function well. I think that Zenith, Tag Heuer, and potentially most other brands in the industry, are getting ahead of themselves and releasing watches that they can't support properly. This has probably been the case for many years now, but I think that the scale and speed speed of this phenomenon is accelerating. The recent huge push for new models by Zenith could result in disasters in three to six years as the watches return for routine servicing.
> 
> In my opinion, the next quartz-style crisis will be the viability of the luxury mechanical watch due to servicing requirements.


I do think LVMH has established a one size fits all process across the watch brands.

There's a perception that an El Primero is next level that it goes to a special room and the entry level Tags go to another room, but I'm not really sure this is the case. To them, a watch is a watch and no special distinction-besides obtaining the qualified watchmaker-is made for one priced at 2k vs. another priced at 10k.

The QC might be more stringent due to their understanding of the clientele at that level, but the actual servicing process probably isn't.


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## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

PiguetPolo said:


> I do think LVMH has established a one size fits all process across the watch brands.
> 
> There's a perception that an El Primero is next level that it goes to a special room and the entry level Tags go to another room, but I'm not really sure this is the case. To them, a watch is a watch and no special distinction-besides obtaining the qualified watchmaker-is made for one priced at 2k vs. another priced at 10k.
> 
> The QC might be more stringent due to their understanding of the clientele at that level, but the actual servicing process probably isn't.


And that's a problem, because just because someone is certified to work on a $2,000 TAG with a 7750, doesn't mean they're capable of taking on a proprietary high beat Zenith calibre with a super high beat chronograph, and the higher level of service and care that an owner of the latter will no doubt expect.

Either way, the onus is on LVMH to set standards and train people properly and expand servicing operations as needed.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

Zhanming057 said:


> And that's a problem, because just because someone is certified to work on a $2,000 TAG with a 7750, doesn't mean they're capable of taking on a proprietary high beat Zenith calibre with a super high beat chronograph, and the higher level of service and care that an owner of the latter will no doubt expect.
> 
> Either way, the onus is on LVMH to set standards and train people properly and expand servicing operations as needed.


For operations its less management (perceived efficiency) to have a one size fits all approach, but its almost always means no one is happy - those working on the watches as well as the end user.

Segmenting operations is probably better than expanding because they might be big enough, but not specialized enough to satisfy each category of brand/customer. It shouldn't be as hard because if you can please a $2k watch customer you're already pretty far along in pleasing a $10k customer.

Brands like Seiko have it worse because they choose to play from $200 Seiko 5s, $5K+ Grand Seikos, all the way to $50K+ Grand Seiko LE/ Credor LE. Obviously this is helped by Japan Service taking on the super high end, and Seiko USA taking on the more everyman watches, but $200 - $10k encompasses way more segments of customers than $2k to $10k.

Its a big challenge and i can see why the move upmarket relieves some pressure.


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## joshd2012 (Apr 2, 2018)

Happy ending?









From the Editor: Zenith's Response to the LVMH Service Nightmare. A Very Positive Outcome. — WATCH COLLECTING LIFESTYLE


If you read my article published yesterday, on how the LVMH Service Center turned the warranty repair of my Zenith DEFY El Primero 21 Into a living nightmare, you can head all the way to the bottom of this article and see how Zenith responded to my article.




www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com





I'm not sure this would have been the same resolution if the article hadn't been posted (the timing nearly confirms that), but at least it's a good outcome.


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## Zhanming057 (Jun 17, 2019)

PiguetPolo said:


> For operations its less management (perceived efficiency) to have a one size fits all approach, but its almost always means no one is happy - those working on the watches as well as the end user.
> 
> Segmenting operations is probably better than expanding because they might be big enough, but not specialized enough to satisfy each category of brand/customer. It shouldn't be as hard because if you can please a $2k watch customer you're already pretty far along in pleasing a $10k customer.
> 
> ...


I think that there's an argument here for buying from brands that stick to a narrower range of prices, although there are certainly exceptions. But the question remains in the case of, for example, a $15k non micro artist studio Grand Seiko. If that means the watch gets lumped in with the bad servicing of the US facility, that's a definite knock against the brand.

One thing to mention is that particular Defy 21 starts at ~$8k. So I'd assume that the $15-20k limited editions go to the same service centre.



joshd2012 said:


> Happy ending?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This just seems like they're making an exception for him to shut him up. Nothing changes, and there's about 0% chance that another customer would get the same treatment.


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## BHP940 (Mar 10, 2019)

“...Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem.”

i think this was the beginning of the problem. Attitude is everything.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

joshd2012 said:


> Happy ending?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only takeaway I get out of this is that he got a positive outcome for himself-maybe all that really mattered-with the forgone conclusion that Zenith learned their lesson and things will be peachy for the rest of us due to his exposé.

No follow up, nothing. Solid piece of journalism. Like, really solid.

Enjoy your new watch, jerk.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

joshd2012 said:


> Happy ending?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. I'm trying to access the site through the link but I'm getting a "this site cannot be reached" message. Maybe they've hacked his server.  I admit that while I do empathize with him concerning certain aspects of his bad experience, his tone and approach could be more tactful.

Concerning the brand segmentation for servicing topic, I noticed that the New Jersey LVMH Zenith/Tag Heuer service center doesn't mention other LVMH brands like Hublot or Bvlgari. Maybe those two get the white glove treatment, or at least are served by a different service center on a separate arrangement.

[Edit]

So I've now gotten access to the site and read the update. Zenith has been good enough to send him a brand new watch. How nice of them. I hope these materials stay published online for posterity so that we can all claim new replacement watches when servicing isn't up to par. Thank you Halim Trujillo. ?


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> Concerning the brand segmentation for servicing topic, I noticed that the New Jersey LVMH Zenith/Tag Heuer service center doesn't mention other LVMH brands like Hublot or Bvlgari. Maybe those two get the white glove treatment, or at least are served by a different service center on a separate arrangement.


Segmentation in servicing? Thats the kind of information the writer could've follow up to asked Thierry Collot or get contact info for the right people to inquire about for a followup article.

Then again, I'm not really sure they want anybody knowing how the machine works. Better to keep us guessing.


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## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

h2c said:


> what do you mean? what is common?


The person.


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## espresso&watches (Feb 14, 2019)

I'm stunned by some of the replies here. LVMH service scratched up the movement and the case, and then to rectify these issues (which should never have happened in the first place) they swap out the movement without telling the owner or providing any documentation (thus making the watch impossible to sell down the track), and somehow this is the owner's fault because he allegedly had a bad attitude? I'm dumbfounded.


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## palletwheel (May 15, 2019)

Servicing is the black hole of the entire industry. This sadly is not just LVMH, I've had plenty of nightmares of my own with other brands. Being nobody important, polite and very very patient did get them resolved in the end, but regardless no one should have to go through the tortures I had to go through to get things right. In terms of Zenith, I heard enough awful things about LVMH servicing that I only bought one because there are viable servicing solutions via independents, I don't have to go back to Zenith. And it better stay that way and not become what Swatch and Rolex have done by strangling the independents of parts accounts. I'm not sure yet how we as owners can fix this problem, but yes being very loud about it to others and warning people away from the brand until it is fixed is a good start. 

As far "segmenting" is concerned, it really doesn't matter. Regardless of how LVMH wants to organize its service centers, it just comes down to whether a tech is properly trained, cares enough, and given time enough, to service a particular movement or not. And in this case the sad answer is not.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

palletwheel said:


> Servicing is the black hole of the entire industry. This sadly is not just LVMH, I've had plenty of nightmares of my own with other brands. Being nobody important, polite and very very patient did get them resolved in the end, but regardless no one should have to go through the tortures I had to go through to get things right. In terms of Zenith, I heard enough awful things about LVMH servicing that I only bought one because there are viable servicing solutions via independents, I don't have to go back to Zenith. And it better stay that way and not become what Swatch and Rolex have done by strangling the independents of parts accounts. I'm not sure yet how we as owners can fix this problem, but yes being very loud about it to others and warning people away from the brand until it is fixed is a good start.
> 
> As far "segmenting" is concerned, it really doesn't matter. Regardless of how LVMH wants to organize its service centers, it just comes down to whether a tech is properly trained, cares enough, and given time enough, to service a particular movement or not. And in this case the sad answer is not.


I totally agree with everything you've said. You've framed the problem very accurately IMO. As for what owners can do to try to address the problem, I've started a thread on that subject and gone so far as to make it my signature with the hope that a snowball effect can gradually be achieved.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

Zhanming057 said:


> I think that there's an argument here for buying from brands that stick to a narrower range of prices, although there are certainly exceptions. But the question remains in the case of, for example, a $15k non micro artist studio Grand Seiko. If that means the watch gets lumped in with the bad servicing of the US facility, that's a definite knock against the brand.
> 
> One thing to mention is that particular Defy 21 starts at ~$8k. So I'd assume that the $15-20k limited editions go to the same service centre.
> 
> This just seems like they're making an exception for him to shut him up. Nothing changes, and there's about 0% chance that another customer would get the same treatment.


There's also much less chance the customer would have been such a complete 'bag in the first place!


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## joshd2012 (Apr 2, 2018)

espresso&watches said:


> I'm stunned by some of the replies here. LVMH service scratched up the movement and the case, and then to rectify these issues (which should never have happened in the first place) they swap out the movement without telling the owner or providing any documentation (thus making the watch impossible to sell down the track), and somehow this is the owner's fault because he allegedly had a bad attitude? I'm dumbfounded.


I'm not surprised by those reactions. Brands love to breed loyalty, which only intensifies when you centralize and isolate that loyalty in a box. Any weakness (perceived or realized) isn't compatible with the idea of the brand, therefore, it must be the customer. Personally, I am still very interested in adding a Zenith to my collection - and I wasn't even aware of the brand a few months ago. One thing that has changed due to this incident and other's like it is the value I place on Zenith's warranty. If I have concerns about sending my watch in for warranty work, then what value do I place on the manufacture's warranty? And if that value is zero, then why would I pay more to buy from an AD? Difficult questions to answer, which is why I'm hesitating with my purchase.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

PiguetPolo said:


> I just sent off a watch to LVMH yesterday. Let's see what happens. &#8230;
> 
> I'll admit theres not a lot of transparency throughout the process. &#8230;


Reached out to them today, and LVMH acknowledged receipt of my watch, but since I forgot to put my email on the letter accompanying the watch (Doh!) they couldn't send the estimate. The CS agent promptly sent over the PDF Estimate via email.

After receiving and with another call and help of a different CS agent was able to access the online progress service tracking system. It was at that point that I was given the opportunity to accept the estimate, pay and move the service along.

Great to know LVMH has an online tracker, something they didn't have back in 2013

I was initially worried that they would go hog wild, but the charges were very reasonable. The watch hadn't been serviced in 8 years so it stands to reason that a full rebuild was needed. The chrono pusher I needed was billed at $19 and the gasket $10. Some parts are backordered so I'm not sure how long the wait will be.


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## thedose (Dec 23, 2011)

PiguetPolo said:


> Reached out to them today, and LVMH acknowledged receipt of my watch, but since I forgot to put my email on the letter accompanying the watch (Doh!) they couldn't send the estimate. The CS agent promptly sent over the PDF Estimate via email.
> 
> After receiving and with another call and help of a different CS agent was able to access the online progress service tracking system. It was at that point that I was given the opportunity to accept the estimate, pay and move the service along.
> 
> ...


Please keep us updated -- I need to send my Reserve de Marche in a for a complete rebuild, but have been holding off after reading the posts that some people in this thread linked with regard to the NJ service center etc... These positive posts are giving me hope!


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

thedose said:


> Please keep us updated -- I need to send my Reserve de Marche in a for a complete rebuild, but have been holding off after reading the posts that some people in this thread linked with regard to the NJ service center etc... These positive posts are giving me hope!












Yes, I will do. I don't expect anything out of the normal. Just a whole lot of waiting, and then getting back a watch that works. The oft shared negative stories always outweigh the less shared business-as-usual (positive) ones.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Thanks for sharing that! Good to see that LVMH has their online tracker running. At a minimum it will provide some transparency. Hopefully they can use it for reporting and continuous process improvements. 🤓


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

Service is really a test of patience. Finally after 2 months in the black hole, its coming back to me.... should have tomorrow.

So pumped.


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## thedose (Dec 23, 2011)

PiguetPolo said:


> Service is really a test of patience. Finally after 2 months in the black hole, its coming back to me.... should have tomorrow.
> 
> So pumped.
> 
> View attachment 15935338


yes!!!!! 👏👏👏


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Interesting. My initial servicing took about three months. Then an additional six due to issues and COVID related delays. Did they specify which spare parts needed to be provided?


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> Interesting. My initial servicing took about three months. Then an additional six due to issues and COVID related delays. Did they specify which spare parts needed to be provided?


9 months total for service? Thats gotta be a new record.

Parts below that are asterisked below was back-ordered:


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

PiguetPolo said:


> 9 months total for service? Thats gotta be a new record.
> 
> Parts below that are asterisked below was back-ordered:
> 
> View attachment 15935791


Yes, it was partially due to COVID, but I had to send it back in due to functionality issues not being resolved which still remain to this day. I detailed the experience here:
Choosing an approach to restoring a vintage A384

Thanks for posting that list. Why does the first line state "MVT ETA 2894-2"? The maintenance line at the bottom states that it's an automatic chronograph. I presume you sent in an El Primero rather than a Zenith caliber 3000/ETA 2892? Everything is probably fine regardless of what they've written, it just seems strange to me.

I've found issues in some of my servicing paperwork from Zenith and others. Listed examples here:
What's your after-service return rate? Does it always...


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> Thanks for posting that list. Why does the first line state "MVT ETA 2894-2"? The maintenance line at the bottom states that it's an automatic chronograph. I presume you sent in an El Primero rather than a Zenith caliber 3000/ETA 2894? Everything is probably fine regardless of what they've written, it just seems strange to me.


No not the El Primero, this is a LVMH Dior Chrono 2894-2 watch. The first line MVT ETA 2894-2 1/2 is most likely a rebuilt chronograph module that was ordered to replace mine.

Its my understanding LVMH watchmakers do not rebuild the 2894 chrono module at the Service Center, they order a fully rebuilt from ETA and do a swap, sending my old one back to ETA for a rebuild. They do overhaul the timekeeping 2892 base module at LVMH, I believe.


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## fish70 (Oct 12, 2006)

charles_springfield said:


> "Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem."
> 
> It was hard to read anything after that statement...


LOL...Do you know who I am? I am on the internets!


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

PiguetPolo said:


> No not the El Primero, this is a LVMH Dior Chrono 2894-2 watch. The first line MVT ETA 2894-2 1/2 is most likely a rebuilt chronograph module that was ordered to replace mine.
> 
> Its my understanding LVMH watchmakers do not rebuild the 2894 chrono module at the Service Center, they order a fully rebuilt from ETA and do a swap, sending my old one back to ETA for a rebuild. They do overhaul the timekeeping 2892 base module at LVMH, I believe.


I see, that makes sense. I think I misread the 2894 as being a 2892. Is that a Chiffre Rouge chronograph? I should have guessed based on the RED PUSH-PIECE 4H line. 

This also confirms my impression that movement and/or module swapping is become much more of a norm these days for servicing.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> I see, that makes sense. I think I misread the 2894 as being a 2892. Is that a Chiffre Rouge chronograph? I should have guessed based on the RED PUSH-PIECE 4H line.
> 
> This also confirms my impression that movement and/or module swapping is become much more of a norm these days for servicing.


Yes, you are correct, It is Le Chiffre.

Modulars designs for the sake of expeditious service, if they can retain visual elegance is smart design. For example, H. Moser builds their escapements to be modular for quick servicing.

The 2894 chrono module is hidden underneath the base 2892 so it's visually stealthy, but I'm ok with the approach especially given its a modern column wheel design and thin profile.


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## teckel12 (Oct 22, 2019)

h2c said:


> what do you mean? what is common?


The type of person. I always get great service, but those who go looking for poor service always seem to find it. I guess everyone gets what their looking for.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

teckel12 said:


> The type of person. I always get great service, but those who go looking for poor service always seem to find it. I guess everyone gets what their looking for.


That's true in a sense. I know that I'm that type of person, which is to say detail oriented and exacting when it comes to evaluating the products and services I receive.

However, I think it's too simple to just blame the customer for their attitude. Would you be satisfied with receiving back a watch in which one or more of the following USB present: the chronograph doesn't reset properly, there are visible oil smudges on the dial and under the crystal, the case back isn't properly closed, there are loose screws rattling around in the case, issues preventing the dive bezel from turning, bent hands, etc.? Maybe you personally don't notice those type of things, or just ignore them. Personally, I can't, especially given the cost of servicing.

I suspect that many if not most watch aficionados are of a similar exacting and detail oriented disposition. Watch brands market themselves for precision and craft, but so often fail to measure up to those standards in after market service. There are definitely difficult customers, but the modern watch servicing landscape is structured in a way that generates pain and cost that can easily exasperate even the most patient and lenient customer from time to time.

The other thing you have to bear in mind is each person's collection and situation. Somebody who lives in New York and needs to get a Rolex serviced will likely have a much better outcome than somebody who lives in Wichita and needs to get a Corum back in shape.


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## Viper98912 (Feb 27, 2018)

I sent a watch to the LVMH service center in NJ and received it back with no issues (that I can tell). I didn't break out the loupe though....as of right now, it looks like it all came back the way it was supposed to.

Ah, the anxiety of service...


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

Le Chiffre back today from LVMH via Fedx Signature Delivery. My initial impressions:

The winding is buttery smooth. The watch is clean and everything feels right and tight. They included a really nice Dior Ultrasuede case and pillow along with all the seals and chrono parts that were replaced. I'll be wearing for the next couple of weeks to check timing and its proper functioning.

Overall, very happy with it. 2.5 months is not bad considering my other 2 services were double that.

Very pumped on it.


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## Roningrad (Aug 2, 2018)

PiguetPolo said:


> Le Chiffre back today from LVMH via Fedx Signature Delivery. My initial impressions:
> 
> The winding is buttery smooth. The watch is clean and everything feels right and tight. They included a really nice Dior Ultrasuede case and pillow along with all the seals and chrono parts that were replaced. I'll be wearing for the next couple of weeks to check timing and its proper functioning.
> 
> ...


congrats! happy to know all went well!


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

Roningrad said:


> congrats! happy to know all went well!


Well, everything isn't perfect. Couple of things I've observed.

Scratched black on the inner smoked sapphire glass display case"










Whoever put the hands on didn't align it properly. When the second hands hits zero, the minute hand is inbetween the printed indices.
Edit: Possible user error. Not sure if the minute hand slightly jumped when pushing in the crown, but now the minutes hands are OK.



















What's on my mind? Make a fuss, or just roll with it? Inner paint scratch isn't as much of an issue. The hand alignment is more OCD.


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## Roningrad (Aug 2, 2018)

PiguetPolo said:


> Well, everything not perfect. Couple of things I've observed.
> 
> Scratched black on the inner smoked sapphire glass display case"
> 
> ...


ow men!


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

That paint scratch sucks. I’d be tempted to let them know about it and tell them to be careful in the future, but not directly ask them for anything. Make it an FYI and see what their reaction is. When I sent back my A384 a second time they didn’t really do anything and it just created more pain and waiting for me. Unless they say, “sorry, we’ll replace the caseback” it may be difficult to get any sort of resolution. 

Concerning the alignment of the seconds and minute hand, I may not be understanding exactly what you’re describing. Aren’t they usually not synchronized, just like any other watch? In other words, isn’t it up to the user to align them when setting the watch? Are you saying that you align them correctly by hand when setting, but they get out of alignment when running? If that’s the case, have you tried aligning them by setting the time forward and/or backward (passing the marker with the minute hand then moving it backward to align with te marker, or alternately coming up from behind the marker and pushing it forward until it aligns without moving ahead)?


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> That paint scratch sucks. I'd be tempted to let them know about it and tell them to be careful in the future, but not directly ask them for anything. Make it an FYI and see what their reaction is. When I sent back my A384 a second time they didn't really do anything and it just created more pain and waiting for me. Unless they say, "sorry, we'll replace the caseback" it may be difficult to get any sort of resolution.
> 
> Concerning the alignment of the seconds and minute hand, I may not be understanding exactly what you're describing.* Aren't they usually not synchronized*,* just like any other watch*? In other words, isn't it up to the user to align them when setting the watch? Are you saying that you align them correctly by hand when setting, but they get out of alignment when running? If that's the case, have you tried aligning them by setting the time forward and/or backward (passing the marker with the minute hand then moving it backward to align with te marker, or alternately coming up from behind the marker and pushing it forward until it aligns without moving ahead)?


Are all watch second hands unsynchronized? If so, I'm feeling like I just crawled out from under a rock.

I was under the impression that when a watchmaker installs the hands they all had to line up at 12? Because if not, then your seconds hand would be at 0 but your minutes hand would never line up dead on a minute mark as the gears aren't meshed?

I've heard that when you set the time, you should advance the minutes hand 5 minutes ahead and then backwards to "take out the slack" and mesh the gears.

I've noticed a phenomenon when I have the seconds frozen at zero and the minute hand dead on the minute marker, when I push in the crown it takes a bit of time before the minute hands actually starts moving even though the second hands have started. I attributed this to slack and "not meshing" but maybe not. School me.

If not, this WIS learned something new today.


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## fchen (Jun 12, 2021)

charles_springfield said:


> "Before sending the watch in for service I gave the LVMH customer service personnel a heads-up of who I was and what I did in the watch industry so that they would be aware of the potential ramifications in the event of a problem."
> 
> It was hard to read anything after that statement...


there is no excuse for the sloppy job done on the watch. but this guy just sounds douchey.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

PiguetPolo said:


> Are all watches second hands unsynchronized? If so, I'm feeling like I just crawled out from under a rock.
> 
> I was under the impression that when a watchmaker installs the hands they all had to line up at 12? Because if not, then your seconds hand would be at 0 but your minutes hand would never line up dead on a minute mark as the gears aren't meshed?
> 
> ...


Minutes hands are OK. Not sure why they were hitting in-between the minute indices. Could be because the minute hand jumped slightly while pushing in the crown?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

PiguetPolo said:


> Are all watches second hands unsynchronized? If so, I'm feeling like I just crawled out from under a rock.
> 
> I was under the impression that when a watchmaker installs the hands they all had to line up at 12? Because if not, then your seconds hand would be at 0 but your minutes hand would never line up dead on a minute mark as the gears aren't meshed?
> 
> ...


Okay, I get it now. Everything you said makes sense. You set the minute hand using the method you described, then push the crown in and the minute hand lags for a while before starting, which creates a misalignment between its position and the seconds subdial hand. I'm guess this isn't how your watch was working before you sent it in, which is why you're noticing it now?

I think there are more gears and thus more potential slack between the base movement and the chronograph module of a 2894, which means that extra care has to be taken by the service person when aligning the hands. I used to own a JeanRichard with a 2824 + Dubois Depraz 2020 combo. Whenever I started the chrono the running seconds subdial hand would hang for a second before moving forward again, which goes to show how torque may not have been optimally transferred between the base caliber and the movement. The 2894 in your watch probably does a better job as 2892s seem to carry complications better, but your watch still probably faces a similar challenge.

I suppose the easiest approach is for you to figure out how far past the minute marker the hand has to be so that it aligns properly with the seconds hand once the slack in the movement is caught up and it starts to move forward. That's annoying and paired with the scratch it's very disappointing.

So you've got a combo of a technical and cosmetic issue. This is the type of thing I've faced in so many of my service experiences and has been driving me nuts over my ten years of collecting. This applies to brands and centres other than LVMH, but I was especially disappointed with what happened to my vintage A384. I found it interesting that you had access to a digital tracking platform for your servicing experience with LVMH. I didn't have that in late 2019 when I sent my watch in for servicing.

Here's an interesting article from 2019 on the subject:








The luxury of time--Digitally enhanced experiences in an analog industry


How can we redesign the luxury shopping experience to adapt to the needs of current and future customers?




www.mckinsey.com





Key quote:
"French conglomerate LVMH, which owns brands including Dior and Louis Vuitton, has launched "La Maison des Startups", an incubator which aims to incorporate digital services into LMVH brands."

So good for LVMH for delivering the tracking. However, if the outcome of the servicing still sucks from a quality perspective, the customer will still not be satisfied. You'll just be better documenting the road to a crappy outcome.

PiguetPolo, to get back to your situation I'd bet tempted to take photos of the issue, send them to LVMH, see what they say. When my servicing issue arose I also asked and received a prepaid shipping label from them to send the watch back. I feel it's unreasonable to have the customer pay to return a product for faulty work. However, my experience in the end was that they got the watch back, sat on it for months, then told me it could not be improved, and sent it back to me at the wrong address (my empty office where FedEx abandoned it on the outside hallway floor without a signature).


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## joshd2012 (Apr 2, 2018)

Is there any opportunity to send it to Le Locle? Sort of "escalate" the issue with headquarters?


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Are you asking about PiguetPolo’s Dior Chiffre Rouge or my Zenith A384?

I don’t think his Dior went to Le Locle. Dior, LVMH and their major service centres for non-Zenith brands aren’t based there, so there would be no point.

My Zenith went to Le Locle, and yes it is possible to communicate with the customer service staff there. One of the problems is bridging between the multiple offices involved in the servicing, be it the receiving local center in Canada (where I live), the US New Jersey location which seemed to be coordinating things, and the Le Locle site in Switzerland which I presume to be at the Zenith factory. My experience was that coordination and communication between the three parties isn’t very good. Le Locle has limited input once the watch is sent back out to North America.

I’m not sure whether the author of the article that this thread is based on dealt with just the North American LVMH center or Switzerland as well. He probably contacted somebody at the Zenith HQ to get this all resolved. I’d have to reread the article to check heck.

For the record, I contacted Zenith’s CEO Julien Tornare stating that the LVMH service organization wasn’t doing Zenith justice and that I was disappointed in their servicing approach for my watch. He forwarded me to their COO to whom I supplied a detailed outline of the process I went through, its outcome and pitfalls. Both said “thank you very much for your input, it is valuable to us to hear from customers”. I haven’t heard from anyone since.

Part of what gets me is that at the same time Zenith has launched its Icons program through which they resell their vintage models after refurbishing them at the factory. In their advertising you can see all sorts of Zenith staff pouring over archive materials or at their watchmaker benches. The Icons refurbished watches come with a three year guarantee. As a paying customer of their service center I get a one year guarantee and when they can’t align the hands or get the hours subdial to reset properly the customer service staff in Le Locle just tell me “sorry that’s the best we can do”.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> Okay, I get it now. Everything you said makes sense. You set the minute hand using the method you described, then push the crown in and the minute hand lags for a while before starting, which creates a misalignment between its position and the seconds subdial hand. I'm guess this isn't how your watch was working before you sent it in, which is why you're noticing it now?
> 
> So you've got a combo of a technical and cosmetic issue. This is the type of thing I've faced in so many of my service experiences and has been driving me nuts over my ten years of collecting.
> 
> PiguetPolo, to get back to your situation I'd bet tempted to take photos of the issue, send them to LVMH, see what they say.


To be honest, I was never really that observant about the 2894 nuances before sending off.

On this occasion, I just happened to be super exacting about syncing it to reference time as was keen to check regulation. It was then I came to observe somewhat imprecise behavior exhibited due to drivetrain and/or module slack.

After I was able to get it synced perfectly, and after 3 days of constant and active wear, I'm happy to report it is keeping +3.3 spd.

In terms of contacting LVMH, I will let them know for the record, but I won't tempt fate and ask for a replacement caseback crystal as I fear it will go back into the black hole for 2.5 more months (due to having re-order the parts again) and will come back with the problem rectified, but with poor timing or some other gremlins.

Looking at the bigger picture, my Dior has 15 years of battle scars and case back crystal replacement due to an interior glass paint scratch is just not worth it to me. It's just another battle scar.

Wasn't planning on wearing the Dior camping, but whatever.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Makes sense, I can understand your position. Thanks so much for documenting your service experience as it took place. I think this is a great case study of how it tends to go for many collectors and many watches. There may be niggling issues left over, but if the watch generally operates properly it may be better to just walk away.

I still haven’t decided if all this is normal and I should moderate my expectations, or if I will continue to be upset when new issues are created during servicing. Getting into watches I expected servicing to lead to watches being in better condition in every way after servicing. Now I’ve realized that it’s a bit more like surgery, there are risks of complications and scarring every time a procedure is undertaken.

The big brands may feel more comfortable if watch enthusiasts’ expectations can be managed to become more lenient. They shouldn’t get too comfortable though, even if that does happen. People will make purchasing decisions taking into account their service experience even if they don’t complain. Personally it’s changed my approach to collecting to focus on less complicated watches with movements that have proven historical track records. That doesn’t support buying the new exotic higher margin stuff that most brands are pushing.


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## PiguetPolo (Dec 27, 2020)

WTSP said:


> Makes sense, I can understand your position. Thanks so much for documenting your service experience as it took place. I think this is a great case study of how it tends to go for many collectors and many watches. There may be niggling issues left over, but if the watch generally operates properly it may be better to just walk away.
> 
> I still haven't decided if all this is normal and I should moderate my expectations, or if I will continue to be upset when new issues are created during servicing. Getting into watches I expected servicing to lead to watches being in better condition in every way after servicing. Now I've realized that it's a bit more like surgery, there are risks of complications and scarring every time a procedure is undertaken.
> 
> The big brands may feel more comfortable if watch enthusiasts' expectations can be managed to become more lenient. They shouldn't get too comfortable though, even if that does happen. People will make purchasing decisions taking into account their service experience even if they don't complain. Personally it's changed my approach to collecting to focus on less complicated watches with movements that have proven historical track records. That doesn't support buying the new exotic higher margin stuff that most brands are pushing.


It certainly should not be normal, but it's the reality.

The surgery analogy is very fitting. It wouldn't feel as such if the brands could turn the watches around more quickly by having the parts readily available to shorten the lead-time.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

PiguetPolo said:


> To be honest, I was never really that observant about the 2894 nuances before sending off.
> 
> On this occasion, I just happened to be super exacting about syncing it to reference time as was keen to check regulation. It was then I came to observe somewhat imprecise behavior exhibited due to drivetrain and/or module slack.


It' s a common phenomenon, not to notice something before because it wasn't important, and then after, you're super-sensitive to it. It's quite normal. In 99% of cases, whatever you're sensitive to now, you experienced before as well, but simply weren't sensitive to it.

FWIW I have a 2984-powered watch and the additional slack vs. time-only version is well documented. Not only does the cannon pinion allow the minute hand to slip vs. the position of the second hand when hacked, but there is additional lash in the geartrain within the chrono movement. When setting the time and attempting to soak up the backlash by "reversing" it into position, it can take a full minute for the minute had to start moving, which makes it useless for accurate time-setting. Conversely, if you "forward" it into position, the minute hand start moving 10-12 sec after the subdial second hand restarts. When setting the time precisely with the subdial second hand at 12, I set the time forward into position, move the minute hand a hair's-breadth ahead of its marker, and restart the movement. Works a treat.

This happened when new (I'm not the only one to notice it), since then, and following a standard manufacturer's service, which was the same price for a 7750 as it was a 2894.

After I was able to get it synced perfectly, and after 3 days of constant and active wear, I'm happy to report it is keeping +3.3 spd.

In terms of contacting LVMH, I will let them know for the record, but I won't tempt fate and ask for a replacement caseback crystal as I fear it will go back into the black hole for 2.5 more months (due to having re-order the parts again) and will come back with the problem rectified, but with poor timing or some other gremlins.

Looking at the bigger picture, my Dior has 15 years of battle scars and case back crystal replacement due to an interior glass paint scratch is just not worth it to me. It's just another battle scar.

Wasn't planning on wearing the Dior camping, but whatever.

View attachment 15949001

[/QUOTE]


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