# How important is a full set / box and papers with an A. Lange & Sohne?



## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

Hello all,
I apologize if this has been asked and discussed before. I did a quick search and didn't see anything specifically addressing this. So I'm starting to fall in love with ALS a little bit and am considering taking my first leap into this level of watch. I have a decent collection (IMHO) and would be unloading a few pieces to help fund a Lange. Also, I'd absolutely have to be looking at pre-owned and I am curious if there is any stronger arguments with Lange to hold out for full box and papers than with other brands. With my current collection, I have purchased several relatively expensive pieces without box/papers or just papers but I was always careful to buy the seller and do my homework. Is there something about buying a watch of the caliber of Lange that you would argue would necessitate having the full set, regardless of the trustworthiness of the seller? Is it more difficult to resell a Lange without box/papers as a private seller than other less expensive watches? Is there anything like with Rolex where if you have it serviced by Lange, the papers you receive from the service becomes a new badge of authenticity?

Just to give a little more background as to where I am in this process, I am leaning toward a Saxonia in white or rose gold with small seconds. As much as I do really like the time only ultra thins, I feel like I really need to see something moving on my watch (is that strange?). I also am looking at the 37mm (216.026/216.032) or 38.5mm (380.032/380.033/380.026/380.027) size. I just don't think i could go any smaller than 37mm. And any complications beyond small seconds would just get too far outside my budget. Between WUS and TRF, I've seen a few recent sales that seemed to be very fairly priced. Most did seem to have the full sets. A larger reseller I have purchased two watches from and had great experiences with has one that I like and that I think is a decent price, but it does not have box/papers.

I'd love to hear Lange owners' thoughts and opinions on this topic. Thanks in advance.


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## mmiah80 (Oct 1, 2019)

For something as priced at a Lange is, I would want the full kit. Plus the booklet includes all service records and history of the watch.

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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

A few thoughts:

(1) Before buying a Lange without papers, give the caseback number to Lange to verify that it was not reported as stolen.

(2) Lange can provide you with a "Certificate of Authenticity" if the original warranty paper is missing. You would have to present the watch in person to receive this. Personally, that Certificate doesn't mean much to me because (a) unlike a Rolex, a Lange (with its transparent caseback and recognizable movement finishes) is very easy to authenticate without needing a highly trained eye; and (b) the Certificate of Authenticity tells me that the original papers were lost, which detracts from its value. I would not value such a watch as highly as I would if all the original papers were present. I would say the same thing about service papers. I suppose both the Certificate of Authenticity and the service papers would add a bit of value by showing that the watch wasn't reported as stolen, which is reassuring.

(3) You should receive a significant discount if the original warranty paper (and box) are missing. Langes without original papers and boxes are more difficult to sell unless a significant discount is built into the price. This is especially true for a standard model like the Saxonia.

(4) Personally, for a Saxonia, I'd pay a bit more to get a preowned one with full papers and boxes for a fair price. Then nobody can ever question it.

(5) All of that being said, if the watch isn't stolen and if you get it at a very good discount without papers and/or boxes, then you've gotten what you want and have done well.

(6) I couldn't own a watch without a second hand because I need to see something moving too.

Let us know what happens, and good luck!

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ADDENDUM:

When buying any preowned Lange, examine the lugs to make sure it wasn't (over)polished. The lugs should have pretty crisp bevels on the outer top edges. They should not be rounded. Also, you want to hope that nobody other than a Lange-authorized watchmaker has ever opened the caseback. It's very easy to noticeable damage the movement. Even the German silver plates are very sensitive to finger oils and can show discoloration if touched by skin.


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## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

Thank you! I guess I need to be patient and wait for that right deal with box/papers on this one. I appreciate the responses.


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## Ranger822 (Feb 9, 2013)

I would echo CFR's comments. That said, I think if you are buying a watch for yourself and plan to keep it a very long time . . . I don' think box, papers, will prove that valuable to you and ownership of the watch. I would be interested in knowing its overall condition and timekeeping. To be honest, I take my watches, when I first purchase them, place them in a multiple sectioned collection box and put the original box, papers, etc in the attic, only to be seen again on the day I decide to sell/trade the watch away. Like CFR said, a Lange with a sapphire casaback is not that difficult to determine if it is authentic. So, if the watch is in otherwise good condition and keeping decent time and you aren't concerned about trading up or selling in the near future then I wouldn't be that concerned about the watch, especially on one of the watches in the entry level. Conversely, if you are thinking about getting one of the higher end Lange's with special complications (Tourbillon, Pour le Merit, Handwurkunst, etc, I think you would be remiss not demanding a complete set, all service records, etc. When you are spending serious money like that you really shouldn't need to compromise. Folks that purchase high-end pieces know they need to be good caretakers or risk some pretty serious financial consequences.


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## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

Ranger822 - Thanks for the response. The watch would absolutely be for me to wear and enjoy, though I couldn't rule out the possibility of either having to or wanting to sell it one day, either to trade up, down or just to cash out. And so far, strangely, the ones I've seen so far without papers, while reasonably priced, are not priced any lower than some I've seen on this and another forum that have sold recently with box and papers. So I guess it would have to be a fantastic deal from a very reputable seller for me to go no papers.

BTW, great collection. I really like how it's full spectrum from humble to best of the best. I know if I could ever afford some or multiple Holy Trinity and Lange level watches, I would still keep, wear, and enjoy my Hamilton Field Khaki and Seiko SARB017, among others.


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## WatchEater666 (May 27, 2019)

Personally, I don't care about full set at all. When I was selling my Lange 1 though, a lot of people did. So if you buy a watch that isn't a full set, then only do so if you get a discount because of it.


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## Sergeant Major (Dec 13, 2019)

Collectors pay to have them. Like a rare car with original title and window stickers.


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## Ranger822 (Feb 9, 2013)

I believe that folks asking full price for a watch without papers hope they can find someone who doesn't care about the box/papers - if they can find someone to buy, good for them. Just keep in mind that when you go to sell, there may be a reduced audience to sell to. Informed buyers won't pay full price for something incomplete or in need or work/service. 

The pre-owned market is a bit all over the place and will prey on the uninformed and impatient to pay top price for the least valuable product. That is the name of the game. As pointed out above, if you are patient, there will always be someone coming around that will offer a complete set for the same price as some other person with an incomplete set and in need of service, new strap, etc.


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## kypt (Oct 29, 2018)

I won't buy ANY watch without all the goodies. For something expensive there's no way in hell I'd buy it without. I guess I'm just too paranoid about buying a fake and box/papers makes me feel warm and fuzzy.


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## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

Thanks for all responses. Can I ask a follow up question? What is the general feeling about purchasing an older Lange? It seems like the styles haven’t changed all that much. Would you hesitate to buy a 20 year old Lange if it had box and papers and is in good condition? Thanks.


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

kiwi71 said:


> What is the general feeling about purchasing an older Lange? It seems like the styles haven't changed all that much. Would you hesitate to buy a 20 year old Lange if it had box and papers and is in good condition?


Not only would I not hesitate, but I prefer several of the older models, and the old-school papers are pretty cool, too. Lange can make any of their watches look and work as good as new, factory-fresh, when you send it in for servicing. Also, none of their models (old or new) has had systemic reliability issues.

In my opinion, you get more for your money with an older Lange. A decades-old Lange 1, Datograph, Saxonia, or 1815 is a real treat!


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## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

CFR said:


> Not only would I not hesitate, but I prefer several of the older models, and the old-school papers are pretty cool, too. Lange can make any of their watches look and work as good as new, factory-fresh, when you send it in for servicing. Also, none of their models (old or new) has had systemic reliability issues.
> 
> In my opinion, you get more for your money with an older Lange. A decades-old Lange 1, Datograph, Saxonia, or 1815 is a real treat!


Thanks! Due to my budget, I've been checking out the Langematiks from 1997-2007. I love the movement. It seems the rose gold white dial (308.032) ones fetch a bit more of a premium, but I've seen white gold (308.027) and rose gold (308.031) with black dial examples for a fair price. Is there any preference among these two, aside from aesthetics, such as collectability? Looking at the Lange chart that's been shared on this forum, the rose gold black dial appears to have been made for a shorter span of time, so I'd imagine there are less of them around.


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

kiwi71 said:


> It seems the rose gold white dial (308.032) ones fetch a bit more of a premium, but I've seen white gold (308.027) and rose gold (308.031) with black dial examples for a fair price. Is there any preference among these two, aside from aesthetics, such as collectability?


The Sax-0-Mat movement in these watches is a treat for the eyes. Truly spectacular. I understand that it's a pretty expensive movement for Lange to make, too. You didn't mention yellow gold (308.021) so I assume that's less appealing to you than one of the other metals. None of these are more or less collectible than any of the others. It's all personal preference. Also check out the platinum version with rhodium dial (308.025), if you like the extra heft of platinum. That's a sweet watch too.

I'm also a big fan of the old Langematiks without date, especially the YG/champagne dial version (301.021). They are slimmer, they have a really classic look and perfect proportions, and they're cheaper.

Here's a pic of each.


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## kiwi71 (May 14, 2011)

CFR said:


> The Sax-0-Mat movement in these watches is a treat for the eyes. Truly spectacular. I understand that it's a pretty expensive movement for Lange to make, too. You didn't mention yellow gold (308.021) so I assume that's less appealing to you than one of the other metals. None of these are more or less collectible than any of the others. It's all personal preference. Also check out the platinum version with rhodium dial (308.025), if you like the extra heft of platinum. That's a sweet watch too.
> 
> I'm also a big fan of the old Langematiks without date, especially the YG/champagne dial version (301.021). They are slimmer, they have a really classic look and perfect proportions, and they're cheaper.
> 
> ...


Thanks CFR, you are a wealth of knowledge. I have been reading and exploring on this forum and you can see from my first post until now, I've gone from looking at the most entry level Lange to now wanting something with the classic Lange big date. I'm getting close to or maybe beyond my comfort zone on price at this point so luckily I do like all these Langematiks. I'm focusing on the ones I've found within my reach. At this point they happen to only be the black dial versions I mentioned, especially now that I'm also focusing on making sure they at least have original papers. That platinum/rhodium version is outstanding but unfortunately out of my reach ($21k+ on Chrono24).

For some reason, after looking at so many of the date versions of this watch, the no dates look strange to me, like somethings missing (which it is I guess).

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## aaroniusl (Nov 3, 2015)

I generally would not buy a Lange or any expensive watches from other brands if the watch does not come in a full set. This is for my own peace of mind and also in future if I do need to sell the watch for funds, it will be even harder to sell one without box and papers.

The only exception is for vintage watches which I understand that most of the times they do not come with box and papers. For those you really need to do your homework.


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## aaroniusl (Nov 3, 2015)

I generally would not buy a Lange or any expensive watches from other brands if the watch does not come in a full set. This is for my own peace of mind and also in future if I do need to sell the watch for funds, it will be even harder to sell one without box and papers.

The only exception is for vintage watches which I understand that most of the times they do not come with box and papers. For those you really need to do your homework.


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## pulp84 (Feb 5, 2015)

I bought exactly the same watch back in Jan 2017 (308.031, same rose gold/black dial combo). In fact, I passed on an AP Royal Oak 15300 and a PP Aquanaut 5167 to buy it (which were about the same price at the time - crazy how the prices on those have mooned in only 3 years!)

While, in hindsight, that probably wasn't the best move financially, I have zero regrets. This watch is the piece that got me in to high horology. The movement is incredible, and the zero reset (the second hand snaps back to zero when you pull out the crown) is such a great Lange touch.

I actually downgraded mine from deployant back to tang buckle (mine is from about 2007 and is one of the rare ones that was originally sold on a deployant), because I found that the deployant got in the way of admiring the movement!

I still have it and wear it all the time. Wear yours in good health.


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## pulp84 (Feb 5, 2015)

pulp84 said:


> I bought exactly the same watch back in Jan 2017 (308.031, same rose gold/black dial combo). In fact, I passed on an AP Royal Oak 15300 and a PP Aquanaut 5167 to buy it (which were about the same price at the time - crazy how the prices on those have mooned in only 3 years!)
> 
> While, in hindsight, that probably wasn't the best move financially, I have zero regrets. This watch is the piece that got me in to high horology. The movement is incredible, and the zero reset (the second hand snaps back to zero when you pull out the crown) is such a great Lange touch.
> 
> ...


Apologies - posted this on the wrong thread!


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