# Bulova to market a new affordable HEQ ?



## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

*I found this in a Basel-World press release :-*

Precisionist was developed by Bulova in cooperation with its parent company, the Citizen Watch Company, in response to Bulova-led research which paved the way for the development of a technology that supports the company's goal of providing distinctive and beautifully designed watches.

With Precisionist, Bulova has added a third prong to a standard two prong quartz crystal creating a torsional resonator. This innovation results in eight times the vibration frequency of a traditional quartz watch resulting in the most accurate watch with a continuously sweeping second hand. The aesthetic movement of the second hand becomes the symbol to the consumer of Bulova Precisionist and signals a watch with accuracy so exceptional, you can see it. The technology is accurate to 10 seconds per year as compared to most other quartz watches, which are accurate to fifteen seconds per month.

The Precisionist technology will be available in new timepieces ranging from dress to sport to ladies' diamonds within the Bulova brand including the Claremont, Longwood Champlain and Tanglewood collections. They are targeted to the consumer who is looking for a watch that will be noticed both for its styling and technology. Set to debut at BaselWorld in March 2010, the timepieces will be available at retail starting Fall 2010 with price ranges between $299 and $1,000.

For further information, please visit www.bulova.com.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Interesting! :thanks for sharing the info!


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

Wow! Not only a new HEQ watch on the scene, but a new technology--or at least a big jump on current quartz technology. Maybe a new plaything for us geeks to do timing tests with (maybe with the video method!) and plot the temperature/rate function. I'm pumped!


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*

The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!

The limited edition Spaceview sounds however a little too much IMHO (4000 US$ is high even if it is solid 18k gold), but I am convinced there will be enough buyers for all 1000 of them ...

Also I believe the press release might leave open the possibility of a seconds-hand that moves more often than once/second ... :think:


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

Has anyone found a picture of this new Precisionist model?


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*



Catalin said:


> Also I believe the press release might leave open the possibility of a seconds-hand that moves more often than once/second ... :think:


More than that based on "with a continuously sweeping second hand" !

Hopefully they will have some working samples in Basel, I'll be there on Friday ! Just found Bulova in the exhibitor list Hall 1.1/B43

Wonder how they're getting 10spy with no TC though, because it looks like their new scheme results in a 32x8=196khz frequency as on the 8F56, maybe you can't just stop at the numbers though.

Links to PR (had to dig around their site) : 
- http://www.bulova.com/dynamic_repository/press_release/PRECISIONIST.pdf
- http://www.bulova.com/dynamic_repository/press_release/SpaceView.pdf
- http://www.bulova.com/dynamic_repository/press_release/UK.pdf


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*

Oh, I am convinced at some point we will get into more detailed technical points on how 10 s/y are achieved (even if the 256/260 kHz thing might be closer indeed to the Seiko 192/196 kHz), IMHO what really matters most is the fact that a company is finally proud (again) to make some announcement based on accuracy and real numbers, unlike ALL the other stuff from Basel which is about generic nice words and very little actual numbers ... other than the big prices, of course ;-)


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*

Exactly, I'll be taking an M9 Accutron to Basel and an HEQ (not sure which one yet, any suggestions ?) and oops on the 196khz, 32x8=256khz indeed, still not enough for 10spy ;-)


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*



webvan said:


> Exactly, I'll be taking an M9 Accutron to Basel and an HEQ (not sure which one yet, any suggestions ?) ...


Hmm, the M9 will certainly result in a few solid sale pitches from the Bulova guys for one of the new limited edition Spaceviews ;-)

The Aerospace might not be a bad choice - I always tend to travel with watches where it is easy to see multiple timezones - both 8F56 and E510 are still miles ahead of calibers where you can not jump in 1-hour steps, but the calibers 6760 or G900 also have their advantages even if high accuracy is not one of them ...


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## rex (Feb 12, 2006)

*OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

nt


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*

Yes you're right, the Aerospace is a natural when traveling, useful features, smart and light, and in this case...Swiss ;-) Will still take an Accutron for the Bulova booth!


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## 0b5cur1ty (Sep 17, 2007)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

This _is_ sounding pretty awesome... particularly if the second hand really is smooth-sweeping. Can't wait for more details of the models!


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



0b5cur1ty said:


> This _is_ sounding pretty awesome... particularly if the second hand really is smooth-sweeping...


Really smooth-sweeping second hand should be a turn-off for accuracy fanatics, in my opinion, as it is not practical for high-accuracy watches.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Maybe not to check the accuracy with the video method, but it's still nice to look at.

Unrelated, but one of the press releases on the Bulova site talks about advertising and I skipped it but I'm currently watching an ndian Wells Masters 1000 game and guess who's the official timer...Buloca with a large tuning fork, nice !


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

The sweeping hand is a fashion thing.
I remember the time (!) when quartz came out and the stepping second hand was the most fascinating thing to look at. 
Now that mechanical watches are back in vogue, the sweeping hand is the thing to look out for.

The marketing boys can be well satisfied.



> The aesthetic movement of the second hand becomes the symbol to the consumer of Bulova Precisionist and signals a watch with accuracy so exceptional, you can see it.


:-s

Interesting nonetheless.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

*Re: The most interesting news on HEQ for the entire year !!!*



webvan said:


> Exactly, I'll be taking an M9 Accutron to Basel and an HEQ (not sure which one yet, any suggestions ?) and oops on the 196khz, 32x8=256khz indeed, still not enough for 10spy ;-)


One of the newest high accuracy quartz models is the Chopard GP de Monaco Historique Time Attack. I don't know if you have one to take but I think it would be better than the Breitling because it's newer and has only one window. I like it because I've got one! And it's considerably more accurate than the COSC spec..... at least mine is.


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## robert11 (Jun 15, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



rex said:


> nt


I'm with Rex. I want one too!


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

Has anyone found a picture yet?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

South Pender said:


> Has anyone found a picture yet?


I asked Ernie to see what he could get at Baselworld... problem is he is busy busy busy.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

I'll be in Basel tomorrow and will be checking them out first thing when I get there, I'll be tweeting here : http://twitter.com/bestofwatch so stay tuned ;-)


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Did i read correctly that the frequency was to be 192 Khz, with no mention of TC?


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

ronalddheld said:


> Did i read correctly that the frequency was to be 192 Khz, with no mention of TC?


"..._eight times the vibration frequency of a traditional quartz watch resulting in the most accurate watch with a continuously sweeping second hand_..."

It's rather around 262kHz (8 x 32768Hz = 262144Hz), according to the above.

Interesting to be observed: That frequency is identical to the frequency of the second oscillator found in the dual-oscillator ETA movements (like the Longines VHP caliber L174.4).


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

webvan said:


> I'll be in Basel tomorrow and will be checking them out first thing when I get there, I'll be tweeting here : http://twitter.com/bestofwatch so stay tuned ;-)


Webvan, if you can, could you check out the Seiko Astron Commemorative model being displayed at Basel. I (and others, I'm sure) am curious about Seiko's claim about the watch's second hand landing *perfectly* *precisely* on *all* minute markers. The fact that the sample on display at Basel may manifest this feature doesn't, of course, ensure that all of these models will do so too; it could be that Seiko brought along, for the show, one that fortuitously did have this characteristic. On the other hand, if the display model doesn't show this perfect second-hand alignment, then RPF's and petew's suspicions will be confirmed.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Oops, missed that message, sorry, should have pinged me on twitter ;-) I went back to the Bulova booth in the afternoon to talk to a more technical person and ran out ot time for Seiko. Hopefully someone else can check it out.

Will post some pictures of the new precisionist watches tomorow (been up for 20 hours straight now!) but there ae no movement picture available unfortunately (not much to look at apparently and they are still pototypes at this point) and share the info I managed to get from them. Needless to say they were surprised I was interested in the specifics and knew about frequencies, movements numbers, sweeping hands, etc...After I explained I was part of the watchuseek HEQ forum things fell into place ;-)


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

There are 9Fs I've seen that're perfect all around the dial. Cherry picking movements will ensure perfect alignment on the LEs, but it doesn't mean the 9F is THAT good.


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

Sounds great, I was a fan of Bulova from their Japanese quarts to their Accutronbrand and it's good to see them back in the saddle again


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Hmm did not read that article too carefully. Have there been any 256(32KHz*8)KHz oscilators in any watches we are familar with?


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

ronalddheld said:


> Hmm did not read that article too carefully. Have there been any 256(32KHz*8)KHz oscilators in any watches we are familar with?


"_That frequency is identical to the frequency of the second oscillator found in the dual-oscillator ETA movements (like the Longines VHP caliber L174.4)_."


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

Sounds like a direct competitor to the 8Fxx from Citizen. I don't think Bulova makes movements today. Not in recent memory.


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

webvan said:


> ...
> Will post some pictures of the new precisionist watches tomorow (been up for 20 hours straight now!) but there ae no movement picture available unfortunately (not much to look at apparently and they are still pototypes at this point) and share the info I managed to get from them. Needless to say they were surprised I was interested in the specifics and knew about frequencies, movements numbers, sweeping hands, etc...After I explained I was part of the watchuseek HEQ forum things fell into place ;-)


Anxiously awaiting here :-d


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

RPF said:


> Sounds like a direct competitor to the 8Fxx from Citizen...


I'd say it will have _more_ than just a 262kHz crystal, otherwise it won't be able to perform within +/-10 seconds/year.
And that _more_ should be thermocompensation... Citizen can do it without re-inventing the wheel...


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## RPF (Feb 28, 2008)

TC on its own performs better than a HF crystal (in the ~200 khz range)

I'd be surprised if Citizen builds redundancy into the design, since HF increases current load without increasing the performance of current 32khz TC oscillators already in Citizen's stable. 

What's the selling point of a HF TC? Let's wait on the watch. It is, after all, a rare new arrival in HEQ land.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

RPF said:


> TC on its own performs better than a HF crystal (in the ~200 khz range)
> 
> I'd be surprised if Citizen builds redundancy into the design, since HF increases current load without increasing the performance of current 32khz TC oscillators already in Citizen's stable.
> 
> What's the selling point of a HF TC? Let's wait on the watch. It is, after all, a rare new arrival in HEQ land.


I agree that TC on its own performs better than HF crystal (in the ~200 khz range) so the performance might be no better than TC withz 32kHz crystal.
The selling point? This will be the first and only non-32kHz thermocompensated watch movement! On paper the 262kHz crystal coupled with digital thermocompensation is a winner! (In real life it might be no better than the thermocompensated 32kHz movements though.)

As you mentioned: let's wait and see!;-)


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## Omegaman (Mar 17, 2006)

Very interesting! Question, since Bulova is owned by Citizen, I wonder if this type of movement find it's way into some of Citizen's own branded watches? Would be interesting if this concept is transferred into a new version of "The Citizen."


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

All good questions and I asked some of them yesterday in Basel ;-) Sorry for the delay in posting, I wanted to make sure I had all the pieces together !

So here we go : 1. Video - 2. Pictures - 3. Comments

*1. Video : *
720p video showing the Precisionist based Champlain Titanium in action, note the sweeping second : 



 (in case the embedding below doesn't work)






*2. Pictures :* 
Unfortunately no pictures of the movement are available, they said there was not much to look at and that they were prototypes at this point.

a. Precisionist family at launch :










b. Close up










b2. Close up 2










c. Champlain Titanium (46.5mm/14.4mm - 96B131)










d. Diamond studded Tanglewood model (32mm/9.2mm - 98R141)










*3. Comments* :

a. There are two Precisionist movements at this time : P102.12 (12.5 ligne) for men's watches and the P112.10 (10 ligne) for women's watches. No chronographs at launch but they said they were working on the next generation that would include multi-function models.

b. As seen in the video above the "sweeping" is quite "smooth" so I was surprised to find it only moves 16 times per second, i.e. 16hz, not that much more than the 10hz of a 36000bph movement. They said they felt it was a good compromise between achieving smoothness and battery life. About battery life it's rated at a decent 3 years.

c. Apparently the Precisionist came about after Citizen bought Bulova in 2008 from Lowes who had owned the company since 1979 and Bulova became a subsidiary of Citizen Japan not of Citizen USA. The idea was to bring some innovation back to Bulova using their history with accuracy and the tuning fork's breakthrough in the early 60s. The Precisionist was specced out in the US with high accuracy in mind and a sweeping seconds hand and the engineering part was done by Citizen in Japan. I asked if they were using an existing design but apparently not and there are no plans to use that movement in Citizen watches. Citizen focuses on Ecodrive watches and that doesn't fit in well with high frequency quartz.

d. Quartz frequency is indeed 262144Hz and there is no thermal compensation. When I mentioned that the 196khz Seiko in the 8Fxx caliber didn't have the stability of TC based watches they said that frequency wasn't everything and seem to be confident that the "third prong that creates a torsional resonator" helped a lot with stability...That's what their testing tells them, so I guess we'll have to do ours ;-)

e. I asked about the presence of a "trimmer" but apparently there will be no way to perform adjustments directly on the watch. If a watch is out of specs it will have to be sent back.

f. Availability is set for September in the US

*Final words* : the technical side remains a bit of a mystery and it's disappointing not to have pictures of the movement, but as was pointed out it's great to see a mainstream brand go for the accuracy we "crave" ;-) Other than the tip of the seconds hand with a dual P (looks a bit like an 8) the design of the Precisionist range doesn't particularly stand out like the Bulova's of the 60s and 70s did, but that may change over time and that doesn't have any impact on the accuracy.

All in all quite exciting and it was great to meet with them. The Basel show is mostly a time when companies meet with their distributors and resellers so I had to explain a few times why I was interested in the Precisionist. The magic of the internet, someone posts a message on Friday, someone else goes to Basel on Monday and on Tuesday we have pictures, a video and some comments ;-) I think I've summarized all I remember but if you have questions I might recall other aspects and I have a contact over there so I could possibly ping them with more questions.


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## TallyHo! (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks for taking the time to post the video and photos. Do you anymore pictures of the collection? In particular, do you have any close up shots of the left half of the collection. Thanks again.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Sure, I added a picture of the left half above ;-)


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## TallyHo! (Jun 1, 2007)

Thank you!


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## fstshrk (Mar 29, 2007)

A 46.5mm watch. I have no idea why every one has to wear watches that are the size of a clock 

Maybe eventually they will stick this movement into a more reasonable 40-42 mm Rolex Oyster style case.


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

The caliber looks very promising, the initial actual models seem a little too big for my personal taste, but I am afraid that is precisely what the market is currently crazy about, so it will probably sell very well ...


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes, more than the design what's exciting here is the caliber and its features ;-) Having said that the 96B128 from the Claremont collection (bottom right of close up 1) is a slightly more reasonable 44mm (12.2mm thickness) and the 96B130 Longwood (left in close up 2) is 43.5mm (11.6mm thickness)


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

What a great report! It is interesting they think a new shape on the xtal will be as good as TC... like you said, we'll find out!

None of the designs instantly made me want to buy one... but I probably will anyway!


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

Eeeb said:


> ...It is interesting they think a new shape on the xtal will be as good as TC...


The bad news is that it has no digital calibration terminal. I'm not surprised though as we're talking about essentially a Citizen watch.
If it has no TC then the 262kHz crystal (regardless of its shape) won't be able to perform within the claimed specification (accuracy-wise).


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

ppaulusz said:


> The bad news is that it has no digital calibration terminal. I'm not surprised though as we're talking about essentially a Citizen watch.
> If it has no TC then the 262kHz crystal (regardless of its shape) won't be able to perform within the claimed specification (accuracy-wise).


While I agree that a user-accessible way of calibration is always great on the long term, the other affirmation is a little premature - as far as we know such a geometry was never tried in production before, and generally the problem with the very advanced quartz cuts is NOT so much that it is impossible to make them really thermo-insensitive, the real problem is that is very expensive and unreliable for large-scale mass-production - and even that info is most likely based on the state of the technology about 30+ years ago ...


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

Absolutely terrific report! The new technology (third prong and high frequency) is very interesting. One thing I don't like about the one being held (but not, it would seem, in the others) is this newer Citizen-borrowed (as I've seen it on one or two Citizen models) feature of displaying three dates, with an arrow pointing to the one in the middle. I just can't see the wisdom of this; it would seem to permit misreading and is completely unnecessary. This is a really small point, though, and it will be very interesting to see progress with this new line.



ppaulusz said:


> If it has no TC then the 262kHz crystal (regardless of its shape) won't be able to perform within the claimed specification (accuracy-wise).


How can you be sure of this? Are you absolutely certain that the third-prong feature won't add to the accuracy of the high-frequency crystal? I think the jury has just gone out on this watch's true accuracy. Let's not jump to conclusions!


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

South Pender said:


> ...How can you be sure of this? Are you absolutely certain that the third-prong feature won't add to the accuracy of the high-frequency crystal?...


It might improve accuracy but not to the extent of the claimed accuracy, in my opinion. We'll see!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

South Pender said:


> ...One thing I don't like about the one being held (but not, it would seem, in the others) is this newer Citizen-borrowed (as I've seen it on one or two Citizen models) feature of displaying three dates, with an arrow pointing to the one in the middle. I just can't see the wisdom of this; it would seem to permit misreading and is completely unnecessary....


It drives me nuts too... the last Autoquartz being sold are Tissots that are similarly configured... I won't buy one. Except in jewelry watches, legibility is very important.


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## 0b5cur1ty (Sep 17, 2007)

Many thanks to webvan for the pics and video. The movement technology sounds (and looks) great but I have to confess I'm also disappointed that all the initial models are all monster-size. Here's hoping for a 38-40mm version of the Claremont, which looks pretty nice.


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## BetaMark (Nov 2, 2009)

A watch that could unseat my Glide King - and be more accurate too... NOOO! o|


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*I believe a new movie is available ...*

I believe a new movie is available at:


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## Cadetgray (May 25, 2010)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



ppaulusz said:


> Really smooth-sweeping second hand should be a turn-off for accuracy fanatics, in my opinion, as it is not practical for high-accuracy watches.


Interesting because I find it handy in observing fractional differences when comparing my M5 214 Accutron to an auditory reference time signal. With a loupe, I can generally ascertain differences at .25 second resolution. I can usually anticipate the error drift direction before it reaches one whole second. This allows me to adjust the orientation of the tuning fork tines to compensate for the error.

With a stepper motor all you can tell is that the error is somewhere between the two indices as the sweep hand is in transit. With diligence I can generally average out the error to nil simply by placing my watch tines up or down. It's a fun challenge and can be satisfying to see a 1965 American made watch keep better time than a 2010 Swiss thermocompensated quartz timepiece. LOL


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## 00Photo (Jan 4, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Do Want. Bad.


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## Fingolfin (Nov 20, 2009)

Excited about the idea of a new high end quartz offering, but not really liking the styles so far.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Too large and styling Could be said to be lacking.


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## tom_hanx (Apr 3, 2010)

It is somewhat disappointing they do not have a GMT version that could go against the 8F56... the brown dial + brown strap "smaller" Claremont dial could be a winner if it had this additional GMT arrow (Accutron style). 

Probably the calibre is not pulling strong enough to drive a "true GMT" hand? Apologies if this makes no sense in HEQ terms - I am quite new to this world myself ;-)


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

tom_hanx said:


> It is somewhat disappointing they do not have a GMT version that could go against the 8F56... the brown dial + brown strap "smaller" Claremont dial could be a winner if it had this additional GMT arrow (Accutron style).
> 
> Probably the calibre is not pulling strong enough to drive a "true GMT" hand? Apologies if this makes no sense in HEQ terms - I am quite new to this world myself ;-)


It is not a matter of 'force', it is most likely a matter of marketing and simplified production - it is easier to test a new design in a simpler model and also 90% of the new watches are actually sold based on the 'novelty factor' - so it makes sense to have some fewer initial models launched this year and then have some other new models launched next year and so on ...


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes and they mentioned in Basel that they were working on a chrono as well...the diameter is already there for that!


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Way too big and overstyled. If the Hummer production line made watches I would expect something like this.



00Photo said:


> Do Want. Bad.


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## peacemaker885 (Dec 25, 2009)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Hey Guys - Bulova just updated their site with the new line of Precisionist watches.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Took me a while to find them...here is a direct link Bulova - Home

So the buzzword is "The most accurate watch in the world with a continuously sweeping second hand." - typical marketing claiming, sounds good but doesn't mean much in light of the lack of curent watches with a sweeping hand, other than the Springdrive that costs 10x and that seems to be getting 1spm, so that could be close actually. Too bad no HEQ geeks have tested one in the warm/room temperature scenarios, at least AFAIK.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*

Do they all have mineral crystal? Two I checked did. If these don't have sapphire then Bulova shot themselves in the foot.


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



Sean779 said:


> Do they all have mineral crystal? Two I checked did. If these don't have sapphire then Bulova shot themselves in the foot.


What other sub $300 H.E.Q.'s (likely street price of the Bulova Claremont) are out there, let alone models that come with sapphire to boot?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> What other sub $300 H.E.Q.'s (likely street price of the Bulova Claremont) are out there, let alone models that come with sapphire to boot?


I say show a little respect for your Precisionist, give it sapphire! :-!

ps: I thought prices started at $499.:think:


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



Sean779 said:


> I say show a little respect for your Precisionist, give it sapphire! :-!
> 
> ps: I thought prices started at $499.:think:


Don't get me wrong, I'd _love_ to see sapphire as well. :-!

I just thought maybe there was a competitor in this price bracket that I didn't know of. :-s

Yeah the least expensive Precisionist is the Claremont. Brown on leather retails for $299, black on SS retails for $350, and two tone on SS goes for $399.

The one I'm looking at is the black on SS, seen here:

Bulova Precisionist Claremont Steel

My guess is that it will be available for _around_ 30%-40% off, but keep in mind that's just a guess. I have it on good authority that the black on SS can be pre-ordered for 30% off MSRP if that serves as any indication.

Assuming that the claims of +/- 10 s.p.y. are substantiated, which I expect they will be with Citizen backing this whole thing, a price of $209 sounds pretty darn good if you ask me.

Beyond that, if this movement does well in the Bulova line, how cool would it be to see it rolled out into some Citizen models? That's just my own pure speculation that it's even a possibility, but still, that would be awesome. :-!


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Who will be the first to buy one and test it?


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

The Claremont on SS being the only one I like I'll pre-order it for 30% off, question is where is that deal available ?!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: OMG...I want one!!!!!!nt*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'd _love_ to see sapphire as well. :-!
> 
> I just thought maybe there was a competitor in this price bracket that I didn't know of. :-s
> 
> ...


That's a nice looking watch the Claremont, and for even $299 I'd be ok with mineral. I don't expect sapphire for under $300, for $300-$400 I hope for it, and $400+ I pretty much expect it.

I'm excited about these new watches, which is why I was hoping sapphire. :-!


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm surprised that Bulova didn't go with sapphire crystals in these watches. The price differential is, I believe, not that large. You can purchase replacement mineral glass crystals from Otto Frei for around $3.00, whereas for sapphire, you'll pay only $20 (from Germany) or $15 (from China). (Note: I just picked some examples from his catalog.) I think that there may be a misconception about how much a sapphire crystal should actually add to the price of a watch.


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## G-Shocks Are Cool. (Feb 23, 2007)

Speaking of Bulova, I have two Bulova Watches.

They are great, they keep great time, and I never had a problem with water resistant.

The only problem is, they need a new battery every couple of years at the jewelry store, and I got tired of that.

Solar powered quartz is the best you can get for your money right now that doesn't need you to go to jewelry store every couple of years.

Manuals and automatic watches are good too, but you will end up getting tired of trying to maintain great time with it.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

South Pender said:


> I'm surprised that Bulova didn't go with sapphire crystals in these watches. The price differential is, I believe, not that large. You can purchase replacement mineral glass crystals from Otto Frei for around $3.00, whereas for sapphire, you'll pay only $20 (from Germany) or $15 (from China). (Note: I just picked some examples from his catalog.) I think that there may be a misconception about how much a sapphire crystal should actually add to the price of a watch.


and they don't want to lose the price advantage the mystery price of sapphire supports.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

I wasn't too bothered about mineral vs saphire until recently when I scratched the mineral glass on my 8F56 pulsar...not sure how but it's very annoying !

@UpstandingCitizen - Any more info on "I have it on good authority that the black on SS can be pre-ordered for 30% off MSRP" ? Worldlux are certainly not offering that price.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

I wasn't too bothered about mineral vs saphire until recently when I scratched the mineral glass on my 8F56 pulsar...not sure how but it's very annoying !

@UpstandingCitizen - Any more info on "I have it on good authority that the black on SS can be pre-ordered for 30% off MSRP" ? Worldlux are certainly not offering that price.


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## petew (Apr 6, 2006)

South Pender said:


> ......mineral glass crystals from Otto Frei for around $3.00, whereas for sapphire, you'll pay only $20 (from Germany) or $15 (from China). (Note: I just picked some examples from his catalog.) I think that there may be a misconception about how much a sapphire crystal should actually add to the price of a watch.


A quick thought....how is the quality of those generic crystals? I've read more than a few posts in the past from watchmakers complaining about the quality of some generic mineral and sapphire crystals failing pressure tests.

In conversations with Seiko Japan Engineering in the past, they confirmed to me that there are variations in quality with Sapphire crystals and it costs more money to make crystals that meet the specs required for their watches.


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## AdamITR (Aug 7, 2008)

Anyone know where one of these Precisionist's could be purchased. I hear that certain Macys have them in stock, but none are close to me. Don't think online dealers have them yet. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Already? Which Macy's would that be?


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

I'll see if my "source" wants to divulge his little fishing hole, but I'm sure it's like every other watch in that street price is never the same as MSRP.

I don't think 30% all the way up to 40% off MSRP would be wholly unreasonable. I mean, one could expect that they'll be making a nice sales push for these watches, especially with the holidays right around the corner.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

petew said:


> A quick thought....how is the quality of those generic crystals? I've read more than a few posts in the past from watchmakers complaining about the quality of some generic mineral and sapphire crystals failing pressure tests.
> 
> In conversations with Seiko Japan Engineering in the past, they confirmed to me that there are variations in quality with Sapphire crystals and it costs more money to make crystals that meet the specs required for their watches.


Good point. I don't know anything about the quality. You'd kinda think that the ones from Germany would be of decent quality, given that country's reputation for lenses, etc., but I guess we can't be sure of this.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

UpstandingCitizen said:


> I'll see if my "source" wants to divulge his little fishing hole, but I'm sure it's like every other watch in that street price is never the same as MSRP.
> 
> I don't think 30% all the way up to 40% off MSRP would be wholly unreasonable. I mean, one could expect that they'll be making a nice sales push for these watches, especially with the holidays right around the corner.


Sounds like a lot to me but I'll take one at that price for sure, I assume you already have?


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

I ordered the brown Claremont about 3 weeks ago, they said it should arrive sometime in Oct. :-!


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Sounds like a lot to me but I'll take one at that price for sure, I assume you already have?


Nope I haven't pulled the trigger quite yet. I'll need to see them in person first before deciding. ;-)


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

Sodiac said:


> I ordered the brown Claremont about 3 weeks ago, they said it should arrive sometime in Oct. :-!


World Lux?


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Good idea, I was sold on the SS black Claremont but after seeing them all today at Macys in San Francisco I went for the strapper, much lighter (the SS really weighs a ton and with no fine setting, only half links, I was concerned it would slip around) and the inner bezel is silver which matches the "circle" on the dial. Pictures to follow...

Macys have 20% off many watches this week-end, including Bulovas!


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Good idea, I was sold on the SS black Claremont but after seeing them all today at Macys in San Francisco I went for the strapper, much lighter (the SS really weighs a ton and with no fine setting, only half links, I was concerned it would slip around) and the inner bezel is silver which matches the "circle" on the dial. Pictures to follow...
> 
> Macys have 20% off many watches this week-end, including Bulovas!


I'm very interested to see your pics. :-!


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

Is this picture accurate, or is it just distorted? It almost looks as though the bezel gets taller and sort of flares out in the 3 and 9 o'clock areas. :-s


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## Beau8 (May 24, 2008)

Not unusual for a company like to Bulova, considering they're always been a niche brand IMO, catering to a sector of the society at large~Cheers! ;-)


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

Anyone interested in the Claremont on SS at $252.50 shipped?

Says late October shipping, F.Y.I.

watchco.com: Bulova 96B129 Claremont Precisionist Men's Stainless Watch Stainless Bracelet Black Dial

Coupon code "10150" reduces the price down to $252.50 with free USPS Priority Mail shipping.

I doubt many will pounce on this given the late expected delivery date, but it's a good sign that these will dip below MSRP by a nice chunk.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Yes that's correct, quite an odd shape, but it works I think :

Pictures below, comments on my blog : http://www.bestofwatch.com/?p=86


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

webvan said:


> Yes that's correct, quite an odd shape, but it works, here are some pictures ;-)
> ..
> Not sure if it's the case for all the models but this one has a snapback, generally not easy to remove at least without leaving any marks...
> 
> ...


Very nice looking, and currently very fashionable - which also means a little too big for my taste :-(

In 24 hours indeed just the trend can be seen - since probably you can easily see -5 s/y one day and +5 s/y the next day at precisely same temperature just from the measurement errors ! One week is really the minimum, and I am always using 2-3 weeks for my own non-high-accuracy smooth-seconds and I am always measuring at the same marker from the same viewing angle ...


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Yes that's correct, quite an odd shape, but it works I think :
> 
> Pictures below, comments on my blog : Bulova Precisionist now Available - First Impressions « BestofWatch


Finish looks really nice actually. :-!

How curved is the watch? It looks like it slopes down the middle quite a bit (12 to 6).


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I will try to look in my nearby Macys tomorrow.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

ronalddheld said:


> Too large and styling Could be said to be lacking.


I saw three models yesterday at the local Macy's and I agree completely with your assessment. What's worse is that the ones I saw were very ordinary looking, about like some Casio models. If the accuracy claims stand up, the Precisionists are still a good buy at the price but I'm disappointed with their looks myself.


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## Andy the Squirrel (Sep 13, 2009)

So, it ticks more often... how long does the battery last?


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## koolpep (Jul 14, 2008)

2 years


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Source ? Last I heard in Basel from Bulova it was three and the "manual" says 1...



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Finish looks really nice actually. :-!
> 
> How curved is the watch? It looks like it slopes down the middle quite a bit (12 to 6).


Doesn't look curved from the top actually, only when you flip it. The crystal is flush against the bezel, which is nice. They had another model that had a gap, I didn't like that.

Yes the finish is well done, mostly polished but the top of the lugs appears to be brushed.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

First accuracy testing results are in, it's looking good : Bulova Precisionist Accuracy testing - First results are in : Looking good ! « BestofWatch


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

UpstandingCitizen said:


> World Lux?


Wonder Watches


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

Good morning all,

My first post, though I am a long time reader of the forums. Just had to finally share something.

~2.5 weeks ago I received my Precisionist, Champlain Black Sport style. While I realize the styling may not be to everyone's liking (Some would like a more refined dress look, or something a bit smaller), I figured I'd drop in and say that so far I have been impressed with the piece and I'll attach a couple pictures.

They by no means do it justice, as I'm on vacation and only have my phone to take pictures with!

If anyone would like other shots, please feel free to ask and I'll do my best.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I was at Macys and saw several models. I will post again once I get the picture and movie off of the camera.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

The picture show a few models as well as one non Precisionist. The movie could not be uploaded, but the quality was not that good.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2010)

I've got a video of mine, not the best quality since it was taken with my phone, but it's something.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

webvan said:


> First accuracy testing results are in, it's looking good : Bulova Precisionist Accuracy testing - First results are in : Looking good ! « BestofWatch


Testing done at one temperature, I point out.

The Heuer quartz sitting on my tester right now is, at current room temperature, as accurate as the Precisionist tested in that post ... but that doesn't make either HEQ.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Obviously, it's been a day, please read the whole article for the testing plan, thanks.



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Finish looks really nice actually. :-!
> 
> How curved is the watch? It looks like it slopes down the middle quite a bit (12 to 6).


DSLR "Picture fest" here : [PICTURES] Bulova Precisionist Claremont (ref 96B127) ;-)










@Mbz - how is the back on yours, snap-on too ?


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

Just got a reply from classybrands.com (no affiliation) and they said they will have the Claremont on SS within two weeks, and will sell for $199. _Edit: this price includes free shipping, sales tax only in CA._

They are based in L.A.

Bulova watch, Bulova Claremont Precisionist watch, #96B129, - watches - Bulova

That seems like a relative steal based on the little info. I know about HEQ's.


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

I saw the Claremont tonight (finally).

Couple of things I thought were notable:

1. The sweeping motion of the second hand is very smooth, at least compared to what I'm used to with my 6 bps Seikos. I know a lot of people keep trying to compare them to the SD's in this regard, and of course they're not quite that smooth, nor should they be. Still though, the seconds hand is very smooth in person; videos just can't capture that sort of thing.

2. The watch doesn't appear to wear like a 44mm watch. This is especially true of the black on leather variant, as the white chapter ring closes in the dial a bit. It felt to me like it wore similarly to the Seiko BFS. The 44mm measurement has got to be out to the crown, as it doesn't wear anything like a 44mm w/o crown watch. There's no way.

3. Lugs are a little long, but they're nothing like the Sumo in my estimation (which clocks in at 52mm lug-to-lug). I think the long lugs would go well set against a nice strap as well.

4. Crown is signed. Not a big deal to me, but some people go bonkers over that.

5. Finishing seemed nice enough for the price point. At $250 and under, I'd say the finish is definitely nice enough...just not for $350. The brushed finish on the top of the lugs contrasts well to the polished sides. One thing I liked a lot was the brushed crown guard. It made for a really nice contrast.

6. Texture on the arabic numerals and the metal circle toward the inside of the dial are really nice. That's something I thought I'd like from the get-go, and sure enough I thought it looked good.

7. The first few times I looked at the watch, I did sort of feel like I was out at a bar and had tied off a few too many. Ever tried to tell the time on an analogue watch when you've had a few too many? lol The raised bezel on the sides takes a bit of getting used to, but it's only pronounced at certain angles, and overall I think the design looks nice. When you're looking right down at the watch it's almost hard to tell that the bezel is raised the way it is.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

All good points, that can be read with the pictures I posted this afternoon I think [PICTURES] Bulova Precisionist Claremont (ref 96B127) ;-)


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## Escapemen (Mar 20, 2010)

UpstandingCitizen said:


> Just got a reply from classybrands.com (no affiliation) and they said they will have the Claremont on SS within two weeks, and will sell for $199. _Edit: this price includes free shipping, sales tax only in CA._


$199 is 45% off the MSRP of $350.
Does that mean the strap version, which has the MSRP of $299, will be selling for $170? We should move this thread to the Affordable Watches forum. :-!


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

Escapemen said:


> $199 is 45% off the MSRP of $350.
> Does that mean the strap version, which has the MSRP of $299, will be selling for $170? We should move this thread to the Affordable Watches forum. :-!


We shall see. That's only one vendor, and of course it's a gray market dealer as well.

Still though, I expect these watches will be available for a very healthy discount from MSRP at some point, if not right away depending on where you look.


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## Guest (Sep 28, 2010)

Webvan, no the back on the Sports watch is screw on I believe.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Good news, when you get a chance a picture would be great to see how difficult it would be to open it.

Classybrands is a gray dealer ?


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Classybrands is a gray dealer ?


Yup.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

Odd they could get it so quickly after release, but you can't argue with a 50% discount!


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Odd they could get it so quickly after release, but you can't argue with a 50% discount!


These ones probably "fell off the back of the truck." ;-)


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

huh...

Accuracy testing of my Claremont testing continues with 72 hours now and we're at a -2.3spy over the period, details and graph here : www.BestofWatch.com • View topic - Bulova Precisionist accuracy testing - Days 1, 2 and 3


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

webvan said:


> Good idea, I was sold on the SS black Claremont but after seeing them all today at Macys in San Francisco I went for the strapper, much lighter (the SS really weighs a ton and with no fine setting, only half links, I was concerned it would slip around) and the inner bezel is silver which matches the "circle" on the dial. Pictures to follow...
> 
> Macys have 20% off many watches this week-end, including Bulovas!


Did you check to see if the bracelets had solid end links? :think:


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## TRFC (Jun 19, 2010)

A few questions, please.

Battery-life is 2 years? How easy is it to change the battery oneself?

For those that have seen them live which is the better colour, black or brown?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I downloaded the manual. It was devoid of useful content.


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

TRFC said:


> A few questions, please.
> 
> Battery-life is 2 years? How easy is it to change the battery oneself?
> 
> For those that have seen them live which is the better colour, black or brown?


I do believe that it is a three year battery life. Someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It appears that the Claremont model has a snap-on case back. I'm not sure if that helps or not.

I've seen all of the versions minus the two-tone one.

I actually liked all three, to be honest. I'm not the type to go after a brown watch, but I actually thought it was pretty attractive.

Still though, black on bracelet was my favorite.


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## rex (Feb 12, 2006)

*A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

I'm all for the high-tech movement, and aesthetics.

However, the mineral glass crystal and snap-back caseback could be a deal breaker for me.:-s


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



rex said:


> I'm all for the high-tech movement, and aesthetics.
> 
> However, the mineral glass crystal and snap-back caseback could be a deal breaker for me.:-s


I'd love to see a screwed down case back and sab-)pphire crystal as well, but at this price point it's hard to complain. Maybe a suitable aftermarket sapphire could be fitted?

Just thinking out loud...


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## rex (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Aftermarket sapphire crystal on a sub $1K watch? You're pipedreamin' OutstandingCitizen! Nice try though.... :~)


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> I'd love to see a screwed down case back and sab-)pphire crystal as well, but at this price point it's hard to complain. Maybe a suitable aftermarket sapphire could be fitted?
> 
> Just thinking out loud...


It wouldn't have added that much to the watch price had they simply put on a sapphire crystal in the first place--maybe $10 to $15, which, I believe, most buyers would be willing to pay, for this great improvement over mineral glass. And, as Rex has noted, the aftermarket solution may not be possible, and, even if it were, would cost the owner far more than having Bulova buying cut sapphire crystals in the huge numbers they could have and just using them in the first place. In my opinion, this has been a marketing error.

With the snap-on back vs. a screw-on back, the difference in cost _could_, I imagine, be more--although I really have no idea of how much more time in labor would be involved. But to many buyers--at least the more discriminating ones--snap-on back plus mineral glass crystal = cheap!


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## 8point166 (May 28, 2010)

I picked upa Champlain titanium Sat. at Kays got 30 % off so $399 + Tax, the most I have ever paid for a quartz but I love 57,600 BPH sweep on seconds hand and so far +- 0 sec.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> It wouldn't have added that much to the watch price had they simply put on a sapphire crystal in the first place--maybe $10 to $15, which, I believe, most buyers would be willing to pay, for this great improvement over mineral glass. And, as Rex has noted, the aftermarket solution may not be possible, and, even if it were, would cost the owner far more than having Bulova buying cut sapphire crystals in the huge numbers they could have and just using them in the first place. In my opinion, this has been a marketing error.
> 
> With the snap-on back vs. a screw-on back, the difference in cost _could_, I imagine, be more--although I really have no idea of how much more time in labor would be involved. But to many buyers--at least the more discriminating ones--snap-on back plus mineral glass crystal = cheap!


I imagine they didn't want to lower the price at which Citizen watches get sapphire.


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> It wouldn't have added that much to the watch price had they simply put on a sapphire crystal in the first place--maybe $10 to $15, which, I believe, most buyers would be willing to pay, for this great improvement over mineral glass. And, as Rex has noted, the aftermarket solution may not be possible, and, even if it were, would cost the owner far more than having Bulova buying cut sapphire crystals in the huge numbers they could have and just using them in the first place. In my opinion, this has been a marketing error.
> 
> With the snap-on back vs. a screw-on back, the difference in cost _could_, I imagine, be more--although I really have no idea of how much more time in labor would be involved. But to many buyers--at least the more discriminating ones--snap-on back plus mineral glass crystal = cheap!


Certainly it would have been nice to get sapphire, but we could play that game all day long. ;-)

Like I said earlier, show me an H.E.Q. with better specs at this price point and I'll be ecstatic. :-!


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Certainly it would have been nice to get sapphire, but we could play that game all day long.


I'm not sure just what that game is. I was just stating a fact that can be easily backed up by the data: putting a sapphire crystal on this watch would not add much at all to Bulova's cost. In my opinion, it's a bad marketing decision not to. If that's a game, it's one I'm unaware of.



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Like I said earlier, show me an H.E.Q. with better specs at this price point and I'll be ecstatic.


Better _advertised_ specs. In this day of absolutely no truth in advertising, we have to see a clear distinction between 'specs' and actual performance. I hope these stated specifications turn out to be somewhat close to the empirical reality, but let's not get ahead of ourselves with this. We don't know at this point, what the Precisionist will do performance-wise. We have advertising bumf--nothing else. Until we have some solid, empirical, multi-source data in our hands, the jury's out. We've seen time and again that believing marketing copy is a mug's game.......since we're speaking of 'games' here. :-d


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> I'm not sure just what that game is. I was just stating a fact that can be easily backed up by the data: putting a sapphire crystal on this watch would not add much at all to Bulova's cost. In my opinion, it's a bad marketing decision not to. If that's a game, it's one I'm unaware of.
> 
> Better _advertised_ specs. I hope they turn out to be somewhat close to the reality, but let's not get ahead of ourselves with this. We don't know at this point, what the Precisionist will do performance-wise. We have advertising bumf--nothing else. Until we have some solid, multi-source data in our hands, the jury's out. We've seen time and again that believing marketing copy is a mug's game.


I was just referring to the fact that we could add to a wish list all we want, but at the end of the day this watch is in the affordable range. As such, it is going to lack certain features that we might have liked to see on the watch.

Just for my own personal knowledge, is there an H.E.Q. with better specs in this price range? I'm seriously curious, because if so I'll have to explore a bit more.

In regards to accuracy, well, yes...all we have is manufacturer specs. While it makes sense to reserve judgment, we also shouldn't assume that it will fail to meet the high standards (not that you did this).


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> ...
> Just for my own personal knowledge, is there an H.E.Q. with better specs in this price range? I'm seriously curious, because if so I'll have to explore a bit more.
> ...


In that price after the 'retiring' of SBQJ015 there are only very few models left in production, all of them in JP - SBQL007/009 (with ladies-pair STQK037/039), SBQK083/085/087 and SBCM023 - all are perpetual-calendar and I believe all except SBCM023 have sapphire (but that one is a fantastic at that price point and classic-Seiko-style ISO diver anyway ;-)).


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



Catalin said:


> In that price after the 'retiring' of SBQJ015 there are only very few models left in production, all of them in JP - SBQL007/009 (with ladies-pair STQK037/039), SBQK083/085/087 and SBCM023 - all are perpetual-calendar and I believe all except SBCM023 have sapphire (but that one is a fantastic at that price point and classic-Seiko-style ISO diver anyway ;-)).


Thanks for the info, Catalin. :thanks


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



UpstandingCitizen said:


> Just for my own personal knowledge, is there an H.E.Q. with better specs in this price range? I'm seriously curious, because if so I'll have to explore a bit more.


I'm not sure just what price range this is: (a) that corresponding to the lowest-priced ones or (b) the range I've seen advertised for the Precisionist line, which, if I remember correctly, is something like $300 - $1000. In any case, there seem to be several Citizen Exceeds having either the A780 (EBR74-2321/2, EBR74-1492/4, EBR74-2141, EAR74-2452 and possibly others) or G530 modules (EBJ74-2821/2, -2823) that are advertised as being in HEQ territory. These are all eco-drive and quite dressy. These movements may be similar to the E510 Citizens in being fly-by-wire, but I'm not certain about this (Catalin would know). In any case, these can be purchased for about $370 to $450 for the A780s and closer too $600 for the G530s--both well within the Precisionist range. You would have to do some searching for these on Japanese websites, or, better, the Japan Auction Center, where some real bargains can be had. The remaining E510s are probably the best of this kind of movement, but will run you closer to $700--still within the Precisionist price range.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Back to the Precisionist and to its original thead for a summary of my three week testing at room and warm temperatures -> Bulova Precisionist Accuracy Testing : Summary and Chart « BestofWatch

It seems that if I were to wear my Precisionist for 14 hours a day I'd get a -11 spy deviation, close enough to the +/- 10 spy specs. I used the 8F35 for comparison and the Precisionist performs a little bit better, but overall it's closer to the 8Fxx in terms of performance than to the high-end HEQ movements from ETA, Citizen or Seiko.


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## UpstandingCitizen (Apr 3, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Back to the Precisionist and to its original thead for a summary of my three week testing at room and warm temperatures -> Bulova Precisionist Accuracy Testing : Summary and Chart « BestofWatch
> 
> It seems that if I were to wear my Precisionist for 14 hours a day I'd get a -11 spy deviation, close enough to the +/- 10 spy specs. I used the 8F35 for comparison and the Precisionist performs a little bit better, but overall it's closer to the 8Fxx in terms of performance than to the high-end HEQ movements from ETA, Citizen or Seiko.


Thanks for updating us. :thanks

I'll be interested to see what other people report.

Is anyone in here gonna jump on one of these Precisionists?

I made my mind up that I'm going to wait it out and see what comes out next. I'm not sure when newer models will be released; all I've heard is that new models are in the works, with different movements featuring a chronograph, etc.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Back to the Precisionist and to its original thead for a summary of my three week testing at room and warm temperatures -> Bulova Precisionist Accuracy Testing : Summary and Chart « BestofWatch
> 
> It seems that if I were to wear my Precisionist for 14 hours a day I'd get a -11 spy deviation, close enough to the +/- 10 spy specs. I used the 8F35 for comparison and the Precisionist performs a little bit better, but overall it's closer to the 8Fxx in terms of performance than to the high-end HEQ movements from ETA, Citizen or Seiko.


Nice data. I'd be careful, however, about making linear interpolations of the kind you made to get to the figure of -11 _spy_ for 14 hrs. on-wrist/10 hrs. room temp. Although, in theory, this may make a kind of sense, your results from actually wearing the watch for 14 hours per day could be different.


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Back to the Precisionist and to its original thead for a summary of my three week testing at room and warm temperatures -> Bulova Precisionist Accuracy Testing : Summary and Chart « BestofWatch
> 
> It seems that if I were to wear my Precisionist for 14 hours a day I'd get a -11 spy deviation, close enough to the +/- 10 spy specs. I used the 8F35 for comparison and the Precisionist performs a little bit better, but overall it's closer to the 8Fxx in terms of performance than to the high-end HEQ movements from ETA, Citizen or Seiko.


That might change in time - IMHO the crystal is not seriously pre-aged and there might be a certain difference from autumn to winter to spring to summer ...


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Two different issues here, seasons ? That's a temperature issue, right? Aging, yes it will be interesting to see if they age "quickly" like the 8Fxx movements and speed up (had come up with a guesstimate of +8spy/y). The ETAs probably age quickly too based on how "off" some used models arrive here...they are easily adjustable though.

What's potentially interesting too is that all Precisionists have the same "age" so accuracy should be close...depending on whether they can/need to be calibrated at the factory. Hopefully we'll have more accuracy reports soon.

@South Pender - we'll see what happens with this wearing pattern, but I see no particular reason to think why that calculation wouldn't apply? Can you elaborate?


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> @South Pender - we'll see what happens with this wearing pattern, but I see no particular reason to think why that calculation wouldn't apply? Can you elaborate?


Well, one reason that this weighted average won't work well is that when wearing a watch, it is not at a constant 30°C, but will vary somewhat about that value as a function of ambient temperatures. Second, and more importantly, even if your tabled rate values were accurate for the two defining conditions, you have established them under a set of conditions in which the watch was at first, say, 23°C for a week (I'm assuming, or more likely less than a week), under which conditions you obtained a (one-week-based) value of +6.0 _spy_ and then at 30°C for a week (or less), under which conditions you obtained a value of -23 _spy. _Interpolating a value of -11 _spy_ for a condition in which the temperature change occurs _every day_, and the watch does not remain at these temperatures for more than 10 or 14 hours at a time will not, in my opinion, necessarily yield a value that you would get if the watch were at 30°C for exactly 14 hours and 23°C for exactly 10, nor would it adequately model the true-life situation of fluctuating temperatures when the watch was worn. I suppose there is some small chance that this -11 _spy_ estimate will be close to a true empirical estimate based on actual wearing conditions, but it seems unlikely to me.

There are more serious flaws, however, in your analyses. First and foremost, in my opinion, is the fact that you have obtained _spy_ values for the six temperature conditions on the basis of a drift calculation of 7 days (I assume) _or even less_ from baseline to the outcome timing (come to think of it, it would have to be less than 7 days since you've recorded results for 6 temperature levels in something like 4 weeks!). This is just completely inadequate in getting believable _spy_ values, as these are accompanied with a tremendous initial error component that is then greatly dilated by the prorating to one year. I have obtained (and reported) week-to-week results of my two super-accurate tweaked 9F Seikos, and under temperature conditions that change only slightly (the room temperature condition), non-negligible weekly rate variations were found. Which of these should I use to estimate _spy_? They'll all yield differing _spy_ values. To avoid this, I tracked these weekly changes over long periods of 8-13 weeks and thus was able to come up with stable _spy_ estimates, based on long-term performance. The week-to-week variation in the Bulova Precisionist can be expected to be greater than that which I found because of the Precisionist's lesser inherent accuracy level.

Finally, one has to wonder about your temperature values. As I recall it, you put the watch on top of your router to "warm" it. As a result, how can you state precise temperature values of 23°C, 25°C, 30°C, 32°C, 35°C, and 36°C? Without a carefully-controlled chamber, wouldn't these precisely-stated temperatures be merely guesses? If, on the other hand, you had had carefully-controlled temperature conditions, and a precise analytical method of measuring rate in a short period--as we've seen from dwjquest--then your graph might have provided meaningful information on the at-the-moment temperature-rate relationship in the Precisionist, although there are some limitations in that approach as well.

In my opinion, only by _actually wearing_ the watch for a period of at least a month will you be able to provide useful commentary on the Precisionist's performance _when worn_.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> ...In my opinion, only by _actually wearing_ the watch for a period of at least a month will you be able to provide useful commentary on the Precisionist's performance _when worn_.


I agree.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Look what the cat dragged in x2

@South Pender - thanks for elaborating, again we'll see how the actual "real life" testing pans out, I have no bias either way, but your repeated refusal to give any credence to the video method that has proven itself time and time again and is obviously the best method this side of a Witschi to anyone who's thought about it seriously for 5 minutes, (and that costs $0 provided you own a recent digital camera) is puzzling...to say the least. I'll leave it at that. Actually let me add that your belief that your method is the best and that all testing done by others is suspicious ("one has to wonder") is also quite troubling. Pretty sad actually, oh well...


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Look what the cat dragged in x2

@South Pender - thanks for elaborating, again we'll see how the actual "real life" testing pans out, I have no bias either way, but your repeated refusal to give any credence to the video method that has proven itself time and time again and is obviously the best method this side of a Witschi to anyone who's thought about it seriously for 5 minutes, (and that costs $0 provided you own a recent digital camera) is puzzling...to say the least. I'll leave it at that. Actually let me add that your belief that your method is the best and that all testing done by others is suspicious ("one has to wonder") is also quite troubling. Pretty sad actually, oh well...

I understand the Precisionist is now available in Europe, hopefully that will foster some more accuracy testing reports since it hasn't met with much success in NA.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Look what the cat dragged in x2


What a silly way to respond to two entirely-reasonable responses. Oh well...



webvan said:


> @South Pender - thanks for elaborating, again we'll see how the actual "real life" testing pans out, I have no bias either way, but your repeated refusal to give any credence to the video method that has proven itself time and time again and is obviously the best method this side of a Witschi to anyone who's thought about it seriously for 5 minutes, (and that costs $0 provided you own a recent digital camera) is puzzling...to say the least. I'll leave it at that. Actually let me add that your belief that your method is the best and that all testing done by others is suspicious ("one has to wonder") is also quite troubling. Pretty sad actually, oh well...


What in the world is this all about? Nowhere in my post was the Video Method (or the Stopwatch Method, for that matter) even mentioned. I have no problem with your using the Video Method, and think that had it been used properly, your findings would have had much value. In addition, nowhere did I assert that the method I choose to use for timing (the Stopwatch method) is the best. I don't believe that it is--as I'm sure you already know. I believe--and have stated so several times in the past--that both methods give us reliable enough data on which to base drift estimates. So, let's be clear about this in the future. I think the Video Method is just fine, but I also believe that using the Stopwatch Method with many trials (I use 40, but fewer are fine too), so that the obtained mean will substantially wash out any perceptual error, is also just fine, and it is this method that I prefer. So, your outburst in this respect is really just a red herring.

But, since you have brought this up, let me take this opportunity to ask you exactly what the error standard deviation is for your Video Method measurements. As I understand this, you take one Video Method measurement at Time X and then a second one at Time X + 7 days (for example, if the time period were 7 days). A key element in quantifying drift is the error attached not only to each measurement, but, more importantly, to their difference (what we define as drift). Just what is this with your measurements? 

When I used the phrase "one has to wonder," it was with respect to your precise labeling of your six temperatures. And, indeed, one does have to wonder since you have indicated in all past posts that you simply lay the watch on top of your router to create what you call the "warm" condition. How warm? And how can you possibly claim that your router can, in turn, create a precise ambient temperature for the watch of 23C, 25C, 30C, 32C, 35C, and 36C? So, although you may indeed be "troubled" by this, my question, "wouldn't these precisely-stated temperatures be merely guesses?" is completely reasonable and would make anyone "wonder" about your figures. 

My main concerns, though, were about (a) your weighted-average estimate of the drift for the wearing condition, based as it was on two static measurements of unknown accuracy, and (b) your use of far-too-short timing intervals on which you have based prorated annualized estimates. The math is simple. If there is a certain amount of clock/perceptual error in one week's estimate, there is 52 times this amount in your prorated values. Note that none of my concerns in any of what I've written has anything whatsoever to do with your time-gathering method (the Video Method).


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

sigh...


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> sigh...


Obviously we can't convince everybody about the usefulness and validity of your measurements.
Don't be discouraged!

Don't forget you are the one doing this. Everyone else here are just spectators.

Spectators don't need to come up with hard data.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



Hans Moleman said:


> Don't forget you are the one doing this. Everyone else here are just spectators.


Well, not quite, Hans.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> sigh...


Meaning, I guess, that you don't really know or understand the parameters of your errors. Too bad...sad actually; oh well!!

Something else you posted is strange: "...[the] video method that has proven itself time and time again and is obviously the best method this side of a Witschi." Perhaps you don't understand that this statement is roughly analogous to describing the digital-count method of thermocompensation as the best method this side of Duratect. They do different things. The video method allows for the measurement of long-term drift by providing accurate measurements of offset from the atomic clock at different--widely-separated--intervals. Witschi-type machines cannot accomplish this, instead providing extremely short-term (perhaps 2-minutes) snapshots of rate at one particular time, and thus shedding no light on drift, which is a phenomenon relating two lagged time points. Both timing methods have value, but they do not overlap.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> Something else you posted is strange: "...[the] video method that has proven itself time and time again and is obviously the best method this side of a Witschi." Perhaps you don't understand that this statement is roughly analogous to describing the digital-count method of thermocompensation as the best method this side of Duratect.













Hans Moleman said:


> Obviously we can't convince everybody about the usefulness and validity of your measurements.
> Don't be discouraged!
> 
> Don't forget you are the one doing this. Everyone else here are just spectators.
> ...


Words of wisdom, yes let's ignore the "pontificators" and get back to the numbers ;-)


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Words of wisdom, yes let's ignore the "pontificators" and get back to the numbers.


That'd be great if your "numbers" actually meant what you seem to think they do, but sadly they don't, being based as they are on what scientists refer to as "dustbowl empiricism." :-d

Perhaps someone else can provide us with some data that will actually inform--rather than delude--us about how the Precisionist actually performs when worn. Maybe if you sent yours to your mentor, Catalin,...?

Sigh....


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Words of wisdom, yes let's ignore the "pontificators" and get back to the numbers ;-)


Deal.
:-!


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

It should not be that hard to understand standard statistical measures. Also one needs to make ones methods clear to those who may be a little slow in comprehending them. We are all in this as a team effort.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



South Pender said:


> ... "dustbowl empiricism."...


Only in HEQ could we have such cerebral insults! :-d

Data comes in many forms. In any form, it's useful. But in some forms it's more useful.

It's always better to have data than to not have data...


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



Eeeb said:


> Only in HEQ could we have such cerebral insults! :-d
> 
> Data comes in many forms. In any form, it's useful. But in some forms it's more useful.
> 
> It's always better to have data than to not have data...


I fully agree. Basing conclusions on actual empirical data is always better than basing them on conjecture--even logical speculation--or opinions. My reference to dustbowl empiricism is not a criticism of using data, but rather of using existing data in a way that disregards reasonable theory and fails to answer the questions the data were gathered to answer. That's what scientists mean by the term 'dustbowl empiricism.' I see that operating in the results critiqued, in that, although the data are not very good in this case, the more relevant issue is that their message is far more limited than claimed by the researcher.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> Words of wisdom, yes let's ignore the "pontificators" and get back to the numbers ;-)
> 
> 
> Hans Moleman said:
> ...











More pontification, insults, HEQ that "drifts" over time (gee and all this time everyone here thought that temperature was the key! Looks like your refresher from last week was lost on our "resident expert") , Duratect...our resolve is being put the test ;-)

First numbers are in and they could point to abnormal sensitivity to "micro-shocks" (that novel smooth sweeping mechanism?), will be confirming that over the next few days.


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## Hans Moleman (Sep 24, 2007)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> First numbers are in and they could point to abnormal sensitivity to "micro-shocks" (that novel smooth sweeping mechanism?), will be confirming that over the next few days.


You've knocked the third prong off?
:-d

I'd be curious how you found that out about those shocks.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

At this point it's just a guess but with the watch speeding up notably when worn 14 hours a day when it was losing time consistently and pretty significantly as soon as it was above room temperature something is amiss; had the same problem with a Seiko 5S21, much more severe though (about 30 seconds in a week), hence my guess, and it's possibly not a coincidence since the 5S21 also uses/used a novel seconds hand mechanism apparently prone to "slipping". Will need to be confirmed over a longer of period of time naturally.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> More pontification, insults, HEQ that "drifts" over time (gee and all this time everyone here thought that temperature was the key! Looks like your refresher from last week was lost on our "resident expert") , Duratect...our resolve is being put the test ;-)
> 
> First numbers are in and they could point to abnormal sensitivity to "micro-shocks" (that novel smooth sweeping mechanism?), will be confirming that over the next few days.


Sigh....


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



webvan said:


> At this point it's just a guess but with the watch speeding up notably when worn 14 hours a day when it was losing time consistently and pretty significantly as soon as it was above room temperature something is amiss; had the same problem with a Seiko 5S21, much more severe though (about 30 seconds in a week), hence my guess, and it's possibly not a coincidence since the 5S21 also uses/used a novel seconds hand mechanism apparently prone to "slipping". Will need to be confirmed over a longer of period of time naturally.


Incorrect methodology will produce such anomalies.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Dude, go pawn one of your GS's and buy a Precisionist or get a life, or both, but drop it because frankly at this point it's getting pathetic.


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## South Pender (Jul 2, 2008)

LOL! :-d


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Boys! Be nice...*


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*



Hans Moleman said:


> You've knocked the third prong off?
> :-d
> 
> I'd be curious how you found that out about those shocks.


Good news, whatever caused the problem in that first day or so didn't rear its ugly head again over the two week testing period, "worn" accuracy comes in at an excellent +1.1 spy equivalent, more details here. This was an interesting test because it shows that the "wrist temperature" is lower than anticipated at around 26 dC versus the 30 dC that could be expected.


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Bumping the original Precisionist topic for the new year ;-)

Not very good news in terms of accuracy though for my Claremont. I found that it was very well tuned for a 14 hour/day wearing pattern at +1.1 spy (see High End Quartz (HEQ) - Accuracy : room/warm/worn for details), but it might just be luck as it's 262Khz movement is unfortunately not very thermo insensitive, even less so than my 196Khz 8F35 that has levelled off under 23 degrees Celsius while the Precisionist is still "speeding up".


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Here is a better graph : http://www.bestofwatch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10&p=34#p34

Also, I just came across a detailed review of the Claremont : Bulova Precisionist Review - webWatchWorld

His timing at room temperatures : 
10/07/2010 : 0
12/01/2010 : +1
01/07/2010 : +5
Not liking the colder months either!


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## labslave28 (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Since the original Precisionist SPY thread was locked, I'll report my results for 30 days of wearing 14 hours a day. My Claremont gained a little more than 0.6 s for a rate of 7.8 s/y by the video method. The ambient temperature is around 70 F. I'm going to store the watch for a while so I can wear some of my other watches and determine the rate at 70 F. Is there any more Precisionist results out there?


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## webvan (Dec 11, 2008)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

Yes too bad that thread was locked since it had gotten back on track...weren't you at +1 the last time you repoted your results? Yes, I dug that out "After wearing 15 days for a minimum of 14 hours per day, my watch has gained 0.04 s for a rate of +1.3 s/y by the video method" - any idea what happened? Mine is at +1 when worn 14 hours a day.

Other results : 
- Bulova Precisionist Accuracy Testing : Summary and Chart
- https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/bulova-precisionist-rate-vs-temperature-493249.html


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## labslave28 (Feb 4, 2009)

*Re: A buddy on TZ just bought one the other day.>>>*

The trend has been gaining for the last 15 days. It has been colder outside, but I spend 98% of my time inside and have kept the same wearing pattern. I can't think of anything that has changed. After I deterimine the rate at 70 F, I can test at higher temperatures (to 105 F) in the storage box I made for my 8f32. At 94 F, the Seiko's rate stays at +/- 2 s/y. I'll wait to see other results to determine what temperature to test at next.


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