# Ambit R-R/HRV - anyone understand it/use it?



## eeun (May 31, 2012)

I've become aware that I am overtraining and so am looking for some help. Tracking/measuring Heart Rate Variability (HRV) seems like a sensible starting point and I've been looking at things like ithlete, Bioforce and Omegawave but I am wondering if I am missing a trick with the Ambit data I already have as the device already measures R-R/HRV.

Is anyone using this, if so how and how effective are you finding it?

All the HRV options I mentioned require regular payment so I'd like to use what I have if I can and save the cash!


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## santoshrane (May 13, 2012)

Dear eeun, I am no expert but this is what ive understood so far.. the ambit uses RR interval values to compute EPOC. Unfortunately as of now epoc value shown on the move and on the graph don't match..suunto says they are working on it. 
I would stick to simple training intensity value of 1-5 for fitness and training ..where training load and time stays constant to see an improvement. 

I'm sure others will reply. . Hope I get to learn something new too

Santosh Rane
Suunto Ambit 2
GNote 2
Samsung NX300
Merida TFS100


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Kubios HRV is free. I've only used it a few times because you're supposed to get base readings (pretraining) before regular use, so I'll wait till next season.

But all that's required is an R-R watch and the Ambit has that. That plus a little know how on how to interpret the results.


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

bruceames said:


> Kubios HRV is free. I've only used it a few times because you're supposed to get base readings (pretraining) before regular use, so I'll wait till next season.
> 
> But all that's required is an R-R watch and the Ambit has that. That plus a little know how on how to interpret the results.


Thanks but it doesn't appear to support mac OSX.


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

Are you looking for something to recommend a training program based on R-R, recovery recommendation based on the TE achieved in each exercise (based on R-R) or actually measure how you're recovering based on your R-R?


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

paul1928 said:


> Are you looking for something to recommend a training program based on R-R, recovery recommendation based on the TE achieved in each exercise (based on R-R) or actually measure how you're recovering based on your R-R?


Well I already own an Ambit1 and use Movescount, run a mac and iPhone so it would be ideal if I can leverage what I already have. All of the HRV 'systems' necessitate more 'cash' outlay and extra gear (bluetooth HR belt or a special receiver for iPhone) plus another app.

My ideal would be to use the R-R and/or EPOC data I have collected and I can easily take a HR reading each morning with the Ambit. I can't get much more out of Movescount (I don't see how I can) so I thought I would explore other options before shelling out on yet another additional system. It seems to me that in the 'old' Suunto days with Training Manager software HRV was catered for but it isn't supported anymore and doesn't work on a mac. I don't have any PC here anymore.

So a training programme that uses the Ambit data would be good. Open to suggestions.


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

What did STraM give you that Movescount doesn't? The only thing I can think of is the fact that Movescount doesn't let you enter a specific METmax (it automatically enters an estimate for you), so it's TE calculations (based on the R-R HRV that your Ambit records) aren't _quite_ as accurate as STraM's.

Additionally, MC gives you a recovery estimate based on the TE achieved in the exercise which STraM never did.


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

paul1928 said:


> What did STraM give you that Movescount doesn't? The only thing I can think of is the fact that Movescount doesn't let you enter a specific METmax (it automatically enters an estimate for you), so it's TE calculations (based on the R-R HRV that your Ambit records) aren't _quite_ as accurate as STraM's.
> 
> Additionally, MC gives you a recovery estimate based on the TE achieved in the exercise which STraM never did.


Is STraM the Suunto Training Manager? I've never used it as I have a mac but have stumbled across various descriptions of its use in some of the Suunto training pdfs. Going back to basics, what I want is to be able to measure my training stress and recovery better so I can train more effectively and with less stress. HRV seems to provide this (of sorts).


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

Sorry, yes - STraM = Suunto Training Manager.

Movescount gives you Peak Training Effect using the same HRV model that STraM used, which was developed by Firstbeat - the guys who wrote the STraM software for Suunto many years ago. If you're just after an HRV-calculated level of training stress (and then recommended recovery time), you already have it in Movescount in the same way you're reading about it in the old Suunto documentation (eg, Eddie Fletcher's Suunto t6c Running Guide).

However, if you want something that builds a training program out for you based on your current activity level and the TE of recent exercise, check out Firstbeat Athlete with it's "Training Coach" feature. Additionally, Athlete now comes with a METmax (ie, V02max) modelling feature (much more accurate than a Cooper Test) and will automatically adjust your METmax for future training based on it. Unlike STraM, it will work with your Ambit as it pulls the data from Movescount.

Firstbeat ATHLETE | Consumers | Firstbeat

It is Windows-only though - so you'll need to run it in Parralells, CrossOver, VirtualBox, Wine, VMWare etc


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## eeun (May 31, 2012)

paul1928 said:


> Firstbeat ATHLETE | Consumers | Firstbeat
> 
> It is Windows-only though - so you'll need to run it in Parralells, CrossOver, VirtualBox, Wine, VMWare etc


No chance of me ever running Windows. :rodekaart


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

eeun said:


> No chance of me ever running Windows. :rodekaart


LMAO! :-d

I feel the same about Apple products.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

First Beat and Movecount are nice at giving you a rough idea about recovery time, but only if you have your parameters set up correctly. That's often easier said than done. For more precise info about recovery, the HRV analysis is the way to go as it removes the guesswork.


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## roots_n_rocks (Apr 5, 2013)

eeun said:


> Going back to basics, what I want is to be able to measure my training stress and recovery better so I can train more effectively and with less stress. HRV seems to provide this (of sorts).


You can generate ithlete value to measure you recovery status in the morning, with the use of Sporttracks and the Live Recording and Calculated Fields plugins.
You can try them for free for a month and if you decide to go with it, you have to pay 15 euro only for the Live Recording plugin.

If you are interested, i can post the procedure.


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## arhuaco (Jun 4, 2013)

I like using the Training Load Plugin on SportTracks to check I'm not over/under training and work out what taper has worked best in the past. SportTracks is another one that requires Windows platform.....


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

eeun said:


> No chance of me ever running Windows. :rodekaart


Good luck with your search then...


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

bruceames said:


> First Beat and Movecount are nice at giving you a rough idea about recovery time, but only if you have your parameters set up correctly. That's often easier said than done. For more precise info about recovery, the HRV analysis is the way to go as it removes the guesswork.


The Firstbeat guys were recently asking users for recovery data and information so I wouldn't be surprised to see direct measurement of recovery based on HRV added to Athlete soon. It's already in Sports, but the cost of Sports Individual is still 15x that of Athlete.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

paul1928 said:


> The Firstbeat guys were recently asking users for recovery data and information so I wouldn't be surprised to see direct measurement of recovery based on HRV added to Athlete soon. It's already in Sports, but the cost of Sports Individual is still 15x that of Athlete.


Yeah that would be a killer app. Hopefully Suunto can add it to Movescount one of these days and keep it for free.


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## paul1928 (Jul 27, 2013)

bruceames said:


> Yeah that would be a killer app. Hopefully Suunto can add it to Movescount one of these days and keep it for free.


It seems direct recovery measurement using HRV is a "premium" thing that companies are still charging $$$ for. I don't think Firstbeat would license it to Suunto for use in Movescount cheaply!


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

paul1928 said:


> It seems direct recovery measurement using HRV is a "premium" thing that companies are still charging $$$ for. I don't think Firstbeat would license it to Suunto for use in Movescount cheaply!


True, but at the same time, it is still a measurement based on formulas and algorithms and thus something a company (or companies) can't "own" forever. If Kubios HRV is available free for use, what's to stop someone like Suunto from employing its most basic concepts? After all, HRV basically boils down to the more variable the R-R is, the more rested and ready to go one is. I've used Kubios just a few times and it is interesting stuff mathematically, but you do have to do it on your own.


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## bruceames (Jul 20, 2013)

Besides, I think Suunto was the first company to come out with an R-R watch sold to the general public for a reasonable price, and is responsible for much of First Beat's business. 

I don't think HRV is rocket science and over time people do figure it out on their own and there is no law I know of against employing formulas and mathematical concepts derived on ones own (or even using those publicly available).


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## marcoalt (Sep 28, 2013)

bruceames said:


> Besides, I think Suunto was the first company to come out with an R-R watch sold to the general public for a reasonable price, and is responsible for much of First Beat's business.
> 
> I don't think HRV is rocket science and over time people do figure it out on their own and there is no law I know of against employing formulas and mathematical concepts derived on ones own (or even using those publicly available).


Indeed no rocket science 

if you are interested in heart rate variability tracking, I developed two apps that you might find useful. One is intended to be used for athletes (morning orthostatic test, computing different features), while the other one records the raw data without a specific test (in case you want more freedom).

The apps description includes some info on how to use such data as well (HRV will decrease under higher stress or overtraining, and increase under relaxation and with improvements in cardiorespiratory fitness).

HRV4Training:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/hrv4training/id686923970?mt=8

Heart rate variability logger:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/heart-rate-variability-logger/id683984776?mt=8

They both work with standard bluetooth low energy heart rate sensors (i.e. bluetooth 4.0)

feel free to contact me if you need promo codes.

best,
Marco


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## suecoloco (Jul 11, 2012)

roots_n_rocks said:


> You can generate ithlete value to measure you recovery status in the morning, with the use of Sporttracks and the Live Recording and Calculated Fields plugins.
> You can try them for free for a month and if you decide to go with it, you have to pay 15 euro only for the Live Recording plugin.
> 
> If you are interested, i can post the procedure.


I am interested, could you post the calculation?


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