# ETA 6497 vs Seagull clone



## adinfinitum (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi all. I have just purchased a lovely case to begin my flieger style project. It is based around the 6497 / 6498 movement. Now, I can get a new genuine base 6497 for $140 USD or a decorated version (my case is exhibition back) for $200 USD. However, the Seagull version, decorated and visually identical is available for under $40. Aside from bragging rights, what if any tangible benefits are there with the ETA movements and are those in your opinion, worth 5x cost?


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

If you can get an ETA 6497 for those prices, you are doing ok. The ETA movts are quality Swiss movts, and the Seagull is a throwaway movt that will probably not make it to its first service. I have a 6497 watch myself, and it runs excellent, within COSC, in fact. It is worth keeping maintained and will provide many decades of service. I've worked on those Chinese movements and the metal they are made out of is of extremely poor quality, for starters. 
If you plan on keeping the watch and wearing it with pride, I strongly recommend going with a good movement.


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## smpcollector (Apr 18, 2011)

The Seagull movements i have seen (28xx clones) have all been dry or sometimes overoiled in the wrong places so if you buy a Seagull give it the clean and oil treatment then i think it could last very well.


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## Biased&Critical (Sep 16, 2010)

I own both, and am happy with both. As mentioned by Outta Time, the quality of materials, and the finishing of them is much better in the Swiss version. My clone runs at a great rate, gets the same power reserve, and winds smoothly. I have had it for less than 2 years, so time will ultimately tell the difference. With the clones, very closely and carefully inspect the movement before installing it, or even starting it: burrs, tiny flecks of metal, etc would not be uncommon and should be removed/filed before they become a problem.


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## adinfinitum (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks for the replies, 

I would prefer the Swiss movt, given that I've added the expense to get the sapphire exhibition case I know I should get the one I want. I was just wondering if the preference for the ETA was unfounded snobbery or based on a real quality difference.


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## watchwombat (Jul 29, 2006)

smpcollector said:


> The Seagull movements i have seen (28xx clones) have all been dry or sometimes overoiled in the wrong places so if you buy a Seagull give it the clean and oil treatment then i think it could last very well.


I really like this observation. The main difference in my opinion seems to be the finish of the movements, Seagulls seem to firstly not have as tight controll on the parts, where as ETA would not use a part that was .001mm out of spec it seems to be ok for Seagull (this is just an example the figures are not real). Also the oiling on Seaguls seems to fit with the above statement (However I have had dry ETA's from a secondary supplier it just depends on how long they have been sitting) and regulation does not seem to have as much time spent on it. Finally the actual Finish of a Seagull does not seem to be as good, sometimes when you look at the Rohidum plating for example, under 20x you can see polish groves (scratchs or marks) that have been plated over where as the ETA is nice and smooth under the plating.
All in all you can get a great Seagull that you can get to within COCS but you have a greater chance of getting one slightly out of spec and if you are showing it through a display back (which i always think is a little dodgey anyway unless you have an absolute supreme finish on your movement, maybe even better than most ETA's) maybe its not quite as nice when examined closely. Now the decision is yours to make.


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

You get what you pay for. As I mentioned, I have real issues with the metal on these, never mind the finishing. The jewels are inferior, and the hairspring is low grade. I have seen some run fine for a few years, but I have seen others that don't make it to two years. Keep in mind, even the cheapest dollar pocket watches would run for years, just not that well, and they were not designed to be repaired. The ETA movt may seem expensive, but it's not. It is capable, with proper service, of lasting 50 years or more. This may not be a consideration for you, but it is an indicator of the quality and care that goes into the movt. It would be cheaper to throw away and replace a 40 dollar movt than service it.


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## LCheapo (Jul 14, 2010)

All this is very disappointing to learn about the ST3600. Outtatime mentioned that these (Seagull 6497 clones) have bad metal, inferior jewels, and a low quality hairspring. Watchwombat added that the mechanical tolerances are not as tightly controlled (compared to 1 micron specs for ETA).
I have a few questions regarding your observations, since I hadn't seen these mentioned before (e.g. in tear downs or other postings on the Chinese mechanical forum.)
(I was aware of complaints about assembly shortcomings with under/over-oiling and dirt/dust --mostly attributed to non-Seagull assemblers-- , and complaints/observations about the surface and edge finish. I have looked in detail at only one ST3600, and that one seems to be fine; under the microscope though some edges look like the finish was done with a blow torch...)

Outtatime, in the Seagull movements that you have seen, is the metal bad in that it is an inferior alloy (e.g. softer than ETA brass), or is it badly cast (holes/inclusions), or something else?
In what way are the jewels inferior? Do they have visible imperfections, are they badly shaped, or are they softer than swiss rubies?
What does 'low quality hairspring' mean? Badly formed, or bad material (i.e. bad temperature coefficient, or more susceptible to magnetization or rust)?
Watchwombat, how do the loser tolerances show up? Visibly misaligned holes, parts that can't fit?
Any additional info would be great!
Thanks,

LCheapo


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## watchwombat (Jul 29, 2006)

LCheapo said:


> is the metal bad in that it is an inferior alloy (e.g. softer than ETA brass), or is it badly cast (holes/inclusions), or something else?


This is not something that I have noticed, however I have not had a whole heap of seagulls on my bench. This is also something I am interested to hear Outtatimes opinion on. I am assuming from his comment all of the above are issues he has spotted. At the end of the day metal is metal, so the only ways it really can be inferior is either in the way in which it is alloyed or in the casting process and any anealing (softening) or tempering (hardening) that goes into it. Again this is not something I have noticed and I am not sure if outtatime is refering to the visual apperance on the metal or the actual physical propeties of it. Interested to hear more.



LCheapo said:


> iIn what way are the jewels inferior? Do they have visible imperfections, are they badly shaped, or are they softer than swiss rubies?


All Jewels are made from synthetic corumdum. Higher quality synthetic corundum is made by using either flux-grown, Czochralski pulled, or hydrothermal methods. Without going into too much detail these methods cost more, but produce a higher quality of corundum usually spotted by the richness of color and lack of, or minimal growth lines (not found in natural corundum). The cheaper method of producing corundum is the Verneuil method and this produces not as richly colored material with concentric growth lines visible under magnification and often trapped air/gas bubbles not found in natural corundum. Further to this quality controll of the cutting process and weeding out jewels with trapped bubbles and other imperfections is also a place for quality differences. As a general rule hardness is the same but these other things can cause issues if not carefully controlled. Whilst higher quality corundum may be used in ETA's jewels I dont really see this a big issue, the biggest issue I see is tollerences in the cutting and shaping of the jewels not being as tight. This can cause quicker wear in other parts of the movement away from the jewels.



LCheapo said:


> What does 'low quality hairspring' mean? Badly formed, or bad material (i.e. bad temperature coefficient, or more susceptible to magnetization or rust)?


More to the material side here, Nivarox hairsprings (used in ETA's I think) are made of an alloy allowing for less temp vairence, I think the seagulls are better than most Chinese movements in this reguard but still not quite there with the ETA's (especially the higher end ETA's which I think may use a higher quality hairspring again??)



LCheapo said:


> how do the loser tolerances show up?


Increased wear of parts in the movement and shorter service intervals, usually leading to the onset of the aformentioned isses by outtatime (watches dying or not being worth fixing). This is where it gets a little grey in my opinion, I would usually pull down and repair a chinese movement, but the cost of the movement is a limiting factor as mentioned by outtatime. Many people will simply dispose of the movement and get a new one as it is cheaper. However this is not to say that this does not happen with ETA's, I had a TAG Heuer S/EL Chronometer I sent away for factory servicing (has only ever been serviced at the factory) the repair bill was $700 in my opinion more than the value of the watch. This is in my opinion an identical situation as many parts needed replacing due to wear. All movements wear, its just that how careful you are in assembley can reduce this to the minimum, so can servicing at regular intervals, its just that with chinese watches, neither the cost of repair or the cost of servicing are seen by most as worth it given the cost of the movements. I dont think that they are terrible and they can make for some fun watches but you do get what you pay for.

Like you mentioned many people in the chinese watch forum are quite happy with their watches and I think that some of them are quite good for the money you pay. However there are others that just wont buy a watch of this quality for the reasons mentioned. You just need to work out where you sit and be happy with your informed decision.


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

Well, first of all, I believe the expression "you get what you pay for" says it all. There is not a lot of mechanical stress on certain parts of the movt, so an inferior metal may be ok, but where it is noticeable is on the barrel bridge, where there is a fair amount of pressure exerted by a fully wound mainspring. This is where metal on metal occurs, unless the hole is jewelled for the barrel on both ends. It is when the movt comes in for repair that evidence starts to become apparent that the metal is inferior. A watch movt isn't simply a collection of jewels and metals, some of those metals must be properly heat treated and polished, and there is a difference in jewel quality. You probably wouldn't notice the latter unless you neglected the service of the watch altogether. IMHO, plates seem softer, and show signs of improper treatment very easily. The polish on the pivots also seems somewhat rougher than Swiss counterparts. What the hairspring is made of, I couldn't say, but it probably not a high quality one, which could manifest itself in magnetism and temperature variations. Noticeable? To some, surely.
They have to cut quite a few corners to make a movt for $40. Of course, the labour is much cheaper, but even so, materials are suspect. 
I really don't want to sound like I'm bashing Chinese movements, and I'm certainly not saying ETA is the final word. Buying a watch, and getting 5 or ten years good running out of it is easy, it is when the watch requires service that quality will win out. There certainly are worse movts out there, and there certainly are better. Given the choice between the two, however, I would go with the ETA, but that's me. I have seen Chinese movts with damage that was obviously caused by lack of lubrication, and this is a quality control issue also. 
It is also true that some ETA movts are scrapped during service, and new ones installed because it can sometimes be cheaper, especially with quartz movts. 
Not all Chinese movts are created equal, and there are some outstanding ones out there, so much so that they are used as ebauches for Swiss watches. (I can't name names)
A good example of perceived quality are Seiko's affordably priced mechanical watches. I have quite a few myself, and they all work within a certain tolerance, and are happily running away after over 40 years. That said, their amplitudes are terrible, and the timekeeping is so-so. I don't get very upset if I have to adjust the time every couple days or every week on a Seiko. Very few of them ever get serviced, but they will run til they quit. I also have new Seiko 5's for comparison, and their amplitude is not very good, either, but the rates are ok. If you plan to wear the watch and hand it down to your kids, go with quality. If not, the Seagull will probably be fine also. The people who see the difference really, are mostly watchmakers, and we're picky! We buy quality tools for the same reasons...
No offense to the advocates of Chinese watches, as I said, There are certainly worse movts than Seagulls. This is really a personal choice and I'm finding it difficult to not come off sounding purist, so I'll shut up now.


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