# Rare/Interesting/Bargain High end watches findings



## ar7iste

Hello there,

I was thinking last night that I often find very interesting/obscure high end watches while browsing some popular watch buying websites (chrono24 mostly, but watchrecon too). How about we share the weirdest, rarest or most incredible offers we find (online or not)?
The idea to create a thread also cam from reddit r/cars, where there are posts about finding the weirdest/coolest car in the area, and some of them are quite incredible.

This activity has allowed me to discover a lot of pieces I had never heard of, so hopefully we can all learn a little bit from that. I will try to update at least once a week for a month or so, or whenever I find something really cool. The only requirement is that the piece has to be high end by the standards of this forum. I am aware that most of the watches here will be from independent brands (think Hautlence, defunct Romain Jerome, H Moser, Andersen Geneve, HYT, etc.) but there are also some great deals on well known brands sometimes (Arnold and Son, Breguet, Jaquet Droz, Blancpain, Ulysse Nardin, Roger Dubuis, etc.).

Let's start with today's find: a Harry Winston Chronograph tri-retrograde sapphire glass dial for $9,539 on chrono24.
With a retail price above $30,000, this is a bargain. While it is common to find those models around $16k, it's pretty rare to see it below the $10k mark.
This is definitely not for everyone, but it is so unique that I kind of like it. The Zalium case is a novelty and the execution is impeccable.
Harry Winston Ocean for $9,539 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24










Let me know what you think and please share your cool findings!


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## dbostedo

Love the idea... not sure if I'll have anything to contribute, but I hope to see some weird/unique watches.


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## rc51owner

ar7iste said:


> Hello there,
> 
> I was thinking last night that I often find very interesting/obscure high end watches while browsing some popular watch buying websites (chrono24 mostly, but watchrecon too). How about we share the weirdest, rarest or most incredible offers we find (online or not)?
> The idea to create a thread also cam from reddit r/cars, where there are posts about finding the weirdest/coolest car in the area, and some of them are quite incredible.
> 
> This activity has allowed me to discover a lot of pieces I had never heard of, so hopefully we can all learn a little bit from that. I will try to update at least once a week for a month or so, or whenever I find something really cool. The only requirement is that the piece has to be high end by the standards of this forum. I am aware that most of the watches here will be from independent brands (think Hautlence, defunct Romain Jerome, H Moser, Andersen Geneve, HYT, etc.) but there are also some great deals on well known brands sometimes (Arnold and Son, Breguet, Jaquet Droz, Blancpain, Ulysse Nardin, Roger Dubuis, etc.).
> 
> Let's start with today's find: a Harry Winston Chronograph tri-retrograde sapphire glass dial for $9,539 on chrono24.
> With a retail price above $30,000, this is a bargain. While it is common to find those models around $16k, it's pretty rare to see it below the $10k mark.
> This is definitely not for everyone, but it is so unique that I kind of like it. The Zalium case is a novelty and the execution is impeccable.
> Harry Winston Ocean for $9,539 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let me know what you think and please share your cool findings!


Not sure that one counts - it looks suspicious to me (look at where it is listed as being from)

Cheers,

M


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## Zhanming057

rc51owner said:


> Not sure that one counts - it looks suspicious to me (look at where it is listed as being from)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> M


A verified dealer is a verified dealer. All dealers require due diligence but just being in Russia doesn't make them weird.

I've been looking at this one for a while...and I actually know someone in Moscow who I trust enough to do a local pickup and wear it over on their next trip to the states. Or that was the plan, pre-COVID.






De Bethune DB28 | Chrono24.com


De Bethune DB28 on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com


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## RidingDonkeys

Zhanming057 said:


> A verified dealer is a verified dealer. All dealers require due diligence but just being in Russia doesn't make them weird.
> 
> I've been looking at this one for a while...and I actually know someone in Moscow who I trust enough to do a local pickup and wear it over on their next trip to the states. Or that was the plan, pre-COVID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De Bethune DB28 | Chrono24.com
> 
> 
> De Bethune DB28 on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.com


I lived in Moscow for a few years. Lots of great high end pieces there. I think the used market there is a little softer because of the perception of Russia itself. Alas, even I didn't get pieces mailed in and out of Russia while I was there. My time there certainly stalled my vintage watch trading habit. I did have the fortune of inspecting a few pieces for friends back stateside that, like some suggest, thing that everything coming out of Russia is a scam. Authenticity can certainly be had there, and several very reputable dealers exist. The problem is always postage. Mail theft is very, very real there.


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## apudabam

I'll play-

One of the best bargains possible for a packed timepiece - although I really am no fan of the brand- RRP is $55,000 USD - available for as cheap as $10-15,000 USD brand new (chrono24).

Ulysse Nardin GMT dual time sonata has 5 amazing complications for ~ $10,000.









(Picture from Internet)

It has a GMT, big date, second time zone, 24 hour alarm, timer countdown, as well as cathedral gongs - and it's beautiful to boot too. Not a UN fan but they have some Stellar pieces.


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## ar7iste

This Ulysse Nardin is one of the best kept secret of contemporary watchmaking! Just incredible! I am very sad that the design is not my cup of tea.


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## dbostedo

apudabam said:


> I'll play-
> 
> One of the best bargains possible for a packed timepiece - although I really am no fan of the brand- RRP is $55,000 USD - available for as cheap as $10-15,000 USD brand new (chrono24).
> 
> Ulysse Nardin GMT dual time sonata has 5 amazing complications for ~ $10,000.
> 
> View attachment 15341655
> 
> (Picture from Internet)
> 
> It has a GMT, big date, second time zone, 24 hour alarm, timer countdown, as well as cathedral gongs - and it's beautiful to boot too. Not a UN fan but they have some Stellar pieces.


Wow... I've never seen that one. Very cool... more details here:









Review: Ulysse Nardin Sonata Cathedral Dual Time


The Watch Magazine takes a closer look at the Ulysse Nardin Sonata Cathedral Dual Time. Read this article online now.




www.watchfinder.com





I wish it had more classic styling... I think it's a little bit too "out there" to throw on my "watches to buy" list. FWIW, I don't see any on Chrono24 below $16K. Still a good deal for the complications they packed in I think, if you like the watch.


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## ar7iste

Today I would like to share a CVDK Mondial rose gold. I believe this is a CK3 version, and only 5 of the Ck3 have been sold, with a total of 27 "Mondial" ever made (the first 2 iterations were slightly different).
Christiaan v.d. Klaauw Mondial Rose Gold for $20,128 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

It indicates time, date, worldtime, day/night and moonphase in a clever way.
The moon hand in combination with the sun/stars hand indicates the moon phases. If the sun and the moon hands are perfectly opposite of each other, it is full moon. Whereas, if they are superimposed, it means a new moon.

This super rare watch is hard to estimate in price, so not sure the $20k price tag is a bargain, but it does fit the "rare" watch theme.


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## ar7iste

A fairly rare watch produced by Minerva in the pre-Richemont era (pre 2006), this 2001 dress piece is super impressive, and almost impossible to find online. There is one currently for sale for just under $10K USD in Europe.
https://ateliertempus.com/product/minerva-chronometre-dial-edition-2001-ref-m484900-rose-gold/

This watch is the epitome of classic European elegance to me. While ALS makes some of the best german-designed dress watches; PP and VC make the best swiss-designed dress watches with classical genevan-style movement construction (I personally prefer the Fleurier style movements like in the Chopard LUC 1860); this Minerva is a whole different design language all together. I think it is absolutely stunning and this Saint Imier-style decoration and construction resonates with my native Jura area (their Villeret manufacture is 100 miles away from my hometown).


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## RidingDonkeys

ar7iste said:


> A fairly rare watch produced by Minerva in the pre-Richemont era (pre 2006), this 2001 dress piece is super impressive, and almost impossible to find online. There is one currently for sale for just under $10K USD in Europe.
> .Minerva Chronometre Dial "Edition 2001" ref. M484900 Rose Gold - ATELIER TEMPUS
> 
> This watch is the epitome of classic European elegance to me. While ALS makes some of the best german-designed dress watches; PP and VC make the best swiss-designed dress watches with classical genevan-style movement construction (I personally prefer the Fleurier style movements like in the Chopard LUC 1860); this Minerva is a whole different design language all together. I think it is absolutely stunning and this Saint Imier-style decoration and construction resonates with my native Jura area (their Villeret manufacture is 100 miles away from my hometown).


As much as I love Minerva, I still don't have one of their pieces in my collection. When the right pieces presented themselves, I didn't have the guts to part with the cash. Now I'm chasing other grails thinking that I could have had a fleet of Minervas in early 2000s prices for what they go for now.


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## Sergeant Major

I picked up my grail recently. It was a watch I never thought would be in my affordable range. I paid 5900 but because the shop is just a town or two away I got hit with the state tax of 6%. These watches retailed at 29,000 USD for a long time.

Someone started a thread about finding the one watch that would keep you at peace and perhaps never buy another watch. This watch is not for everyone but if you like skulls and something rare, only 5 of each version made. My 32 years in Army I got a couple tattoos relating to my unit. A ? was the center piece of the We Defy motto in French. Nous Defions.

Speake Marin Piccadilly Face To Face Skulls 42mm Automatic Men's Limited Watch


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## ar7iste

New post about a brand that many people are familiar with on this subforum.

Recently, a lot of Arnold and Son watches have depreciated on the secondary market, and I think they are a great buy! One of my favorite looking chronograph especially is becoming widely available at a price close to $10k in solid gold: the Chronograph True Beat.
While the steel version was always available around the $10k mark in the Emirates (retail $27k), the gold version did not drop significantly until a few months ago. Now, even in the US (watchbox notably) it could be found for $10.9k!
Arnold & Son CTB 1CHAR.S01A.C120A

This True second chronograph has an incredible finish on the movement, with massive anglage and beautiful polishing, and the grained dial is really stunning. The complication is interesting, with both a true second and sweeping second center hands, it makes for a unique display of time.
If it wasn't 44mm in diameter, I would have jumped on the occasion.


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## Churlish

Just want to say that I'm really enjoying this thread! I had never seen any of these before. I particularly like that gorgeous Minerva.


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## RidingDonkeys

ar7iste said:


> New post about a brand that many people are familiar with on this subforum.
> 
> Recently, a lot of Arnold and Son watches have depreciated on the secondary market, and I think they are a great buy! One of my favorite looking chronograph especially is becoming widely available at a price close to $10k in solid gold: the Chronograph True Beat.
> While the steel version was always available around the $10k mark in the Emirates (retail $27k), the gold version did not drop significantly until a few months ago. Now, even in the US (watchbox notably) it could be found for $10.9k!
> Arnold & Son CTB 1CHAR.S01A.C120A
> 
> This True second chronograph has an incredible finish on the movement, with massive anglage and beautiful polishing, and the grained dial is really stunning. The complication is interesting, with both a true second and sweeping second center hands, it makes for a unique display of time.
> If it wasn't 44mm in diameter, I would have jumped on the occasion.


I was just coming to post the same thing. The WatchBox has two preowned for around $10k. That is a bargain for a precious metal true-beat chrono.


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## MHe225

Churlish said:


> ..... I particularly like that gorgeous Minerva.


Same here - I came back to this thread today to take another look at that Minerva.
A thing of beauty indeed, but then, I am biased, owning Minerva's Pythagore, the utilitarian sibling (cousin) of this piece.
Also one that you don't see often, especially not for sale.


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## RidingDonkeys

Breguet Type XX in yellow gold. This can be found for $11-12k preowned, which is a solid price for a precious metal chrono.


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## ar7iste

RidingDonkeys said:


> Breguet Type XX in yellow gold. This can be found for $11-12k preowned, which is a solid price for a precious metal chrono.


Actually, those type XX go for around $6.5k to $7.5k preowned from what I see. The $11k mark starts the beginning of the rose gold 3810, which is a great piece, bigger and more divisive. In my opinion the 3810 is a true high end piece for the price of a Zenith El Primero/Speedmaster pro (in steel it goes as low as $5k).


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## RidingDonkeys

ar7iste said:


> Actually, those type XX go for around $6.5k to $7.5k preowned from what I see.[/IMG]


Find me a 3800BRY2 at $7.5k and I'll buy it now.

Edit: I mistakenly said yellow gold meaning rose gold on the one I posted. Breguet rose gold often looks yellow, but a precious metal Type XX for $7.5k is still unheard of in my circles.


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## ar7iste

RidingDonkeys said:


> Find me a 3800BRY2 at $7.5k and I'll buy it now.
> 
> Edit: I mistakenly said yellow gold meaning rose gold on the one I posted. Breguet rose gold often looks yellow, but a precious metal Type XX for $7.5k is still unheard of in my circles.


Well, you just mentioned "gold Type XX" at first, which is why I said it is available at those prices. For example:
https://www.crownandcaliber.com/

The exact reference 3800BRY2 is available on chrono24 for $9,340 before negotiation Breguet Type XX Aeronavale 3800BR/Y2 for $9,340 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24.
So I'm sure that with a little bit of searching and patience, $8k is not impossible. The desirable blue dial variant used to sell a few years ago for 5.5k Euros (Breguet Type XX Aéronavale Automatique - Chronograph - a lot from our watch auction).
I say it's worth the hunt if you like the piece!


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## ar7iste

For a week now, there has been a HYT H1 for $18k in the US:
HYT H1 RED DRACULA for $18,000 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

HYT has been going down on secondary market since the beginning of the year. I really like the concept of those watches, but at the same time, the retail price is in competition with incredible pieces from other manufactures and it is difficult to justify. I hope that this is a good hint for them to maybe move into a different price bracket with newer products, while keeping their DNA. The H1 is such a cool watch, and it comes in multiple color schemes. A really fun piece with great finishing on the movement too.


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## mnf67

ar7iste said:


> A fairly rare watch produced by Minerva in the pre-Richemont era (pre 2006), this 2001 dress piece is super impressive, and almost impossible to find online. There is one currently for sale for just under $10K USD in Europe.
> .Minerva Chronometre Dial "Edition 2001" ref. M484900 Rose Gold - ATELIER TEMPUS
> 
> This watch is the epitome of classic European elegance to me. While ALS makes some of the best german-designed dress watches; PP and VC make the best swiss-designed dress watches with classical genevan-style movement construction (I personally prefer the Fleurier style movements like in the Chopard LUC 1860); this Minerva is a whole different design language all together. I think it is absolutely stunning and this Saint Imier-style decoration and construction resonates with my native Jura area (their Villeret manufacture is 100 miles away from my hometown).


Amazing that you posted this, is I have been considering buying a gold handwinding dress watch and had zeroed in on this exact watch from this dealer a few months ago, as being a great buy in terms of heritage and finish versus the price. I recently acquired a Blancpain 7002 (which I think is similarly a great value in light of the quality and finishing) and am not quite convinced I need 2 out and out dress watches, so I have held off for the time being.


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## KtWUS

mnf67 said:


> Amazing that you posted this, is I have been considering buying a gold handwinding dress watch and had zeroed in on this exact watch from this dealer a few months ago, as being a great buy in terms of heritage and finish versus the price. I recently acquired a Blancpain 7002 (which I think is similarly a great value in light of the quality and finishing) and am not quite convinced I need 2 out and out dress watches, so I have held off for the time being.


Great taste! Both of these movements are very nice imo, and remarkably similar in architecture too.


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## aznseank

ar7iste said:


> Well, you just mentioned "gold Type XX" at first, which is why I said it is available at those prices. For example:
> https://www.crownandcaliber.com/
> 
> The exact reference 3800BRY2 is available on chrono24 for $9,340 before negotiation Breguet Type XX Aeronavale 3800BR/Y2 for $9,340 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24.
> So I'm sure that with a little bit of searching and patience, $8k is not impossible. The desirable blue dial variant used to sell a few years ago for 5.5k Euros (Breguet Type XX Aéronavale Automatique - Chronograph - a lot from our watch auction).
> I say it's worth the hunt if you like the piece!


 Ummm 8k and 9.3k are pretty far apart imo. Btw. Haggling the lowest on chrono24 is almost impossible since their margin is already so low.9k is prolly the lowest.


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## Zhanming057

I have one: Girard Perregaux Laureato Skeleton Ceramic for $15,000 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24

$15,000 for a skeletion GP in full ceramic. I have actually handled this watch and the obvious AP inspirations aside, it's incredibly well finished and a major step up from the Zenith Defy skeleton which retails for around $13k.


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## SethThomas

Just shopping around myself for a Breguet. Saw this Breguet Heritage Chronograph on Crown&Caliber's Chrono24 store.

Jaw dropping price of just under $10500 on full gold bracelet. Models on leather go for around $13000 usually.





__





Breguet Héritage | Chrono24.com


Breguet Héritage on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com














Also on their main website if the Grand Feu Clasique for just under $7050! A steal if you ask me. Usually run about $9500 used









Authentic Used Breguet Classique 5140BA Watch (10-10-BRG-0DR1F5)


Buy an authentic used Breguet Classique 5140BA (10-10-BRG-0DR1F5) watch from our Breguet collection. Save up to 50% on all pre owned watches at Crown and Caliber.




www.crownandcaliber.com


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## ar7iste

Another brand that is quite exquisite and very aptly priced on the grey market is Louis Moinet.
Their timepieces are rather bold and mixing modern elements and baroque styling, with some unique complications; like the 20-second tempograph, which has a retrograde 20 second running seconds' hand.

Right now, you can get a Memoris (incredible blue dial, and interesting lateral clutch movement view) for $13,500, which is quite a drop from the MSRP.
Louis Moinet Memoris Titanium for $13,500 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24










Govberg also has some pieces at nice discount, with the Metropolis Blue under $10k. I think it's a good time to try this brand if you have the coin.


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## Cincy2

Just picked up a 2005 sample of this watch up for under $20K in rose gold. Bigger than the current offering and just a mindblowing implementation of a perpetual calendar.






Cincy


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## Azizu

great idea by the original author, love the idea of buying something under market price, it leaves room to reduce the loss when trading it years later.
care to make the challenge more interesting?
to make it about finding popular brands: PP, AP, VC, Breguet, Blancpain etc


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## Azizu

mnf67 said:


> Amazing that you posted this, is I have been considering buying a gold handwinding dress watch and had zeroed in on this exact watch from this dealer a few months ago, as being a great buy in terms of heritage and finish versus the price. I recently acquired a Blancpain 7002 (which I think is similarly a great value in light of the quality and finishing) and am not quite convinced I need 2 out and out dress watches, so I have held off for the time being.


you choose well my friend, Blancpain is worth a lot more than what you paid for


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## mnf67

Azizu said:


> you choose well my friend, Blancpain is worth a lot more than what you paid for


Blancpain is really underrated in my opinion. The 38mm Leman flyback chrono has to be one of the best values versus finishing, quality of movement, and complications, that is out there.


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## SethThomas

SethThomas said:


> Just shopping around myself for a Breguet. Saw this Breguet Heritage Chronograph on Crown&Caliber's Chrono24 store.
> 
> Jaw dropping price of just under $10500 on full gold bracelet. Models on leather go for around $13000 usually.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breguet Héritage | Chrono24.com
> 
> 
> Breguet Héritage on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15366336
> 
> 
> Also on their main website if the Grand Feu Clasique for just under $7050! A steal if you ask me. Usually run about $9500 used
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Authentic Used Breguet Classique 5140BA Watch (10-10-BRG-0DR1F5)
> 
> 
> Buy an authentic used Breguet Classique 5140BA (10-10-BRG-0DR1F5) watch from our Breguet collection. Save up to 50% on all pre owned watches at Crown and Caliber.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.crownandcaliber.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15366338


I ended up buying the Grabd Feu above. Much better in person than pictures. Had some signs of wear in the close ups, but most cleaned out nicely (Namely touching up the screw heads on the lugs). I just could beat the price once I found a coupon for Crown & Caliber. Picked it up little less than 7K shipped to my door.

It came the 31st of July, but it had an issue off the bat. Loose rotor hitting something. C&C was very responsive and I was able to send for a repair (they would have taken full return...but I still couldn't beat the price and I wanted this model for a while).

They had it back fixed in 2 weeks. Overall very happy with how they responded and handled it. Just slightly disappointing that the fellow QC checking these before sale didn't catch the noisy rotor.


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## yonexsp

Zhanming057 said:


> I have one: Girard Perregaux Laureato Skeleton Ceramic for $15,000 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24
> 
> $15,000 for a skeletion GP in full ceramic. I have actually handled this watch and the obvious AP inspirations aside, it's incredibly well finished and a major step up from the Zenith Defy skeleton which retails for around $13k.


That is really nice. Not normally a fan of Skeleton watches, the Zenith I actually thought was amazing, but not for the asking price. That GP os gorgeous, the bracelet looks very good


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## jb.watching

A great idea OP, and similar as you said to what we see on some of the car forums.


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## ar7iste

This morning I stumbled upon this Moser Mayu for $6,463.
Moser is an interesting brand, which seems to be a lot more stable financially today that it was a few years ago. While some of their pieces tend to keep a high resale value, most models are good bargain pre-owned.
This Mayu (old version of the endeavour I believe) has a beautiful movement with the famous Moser easy to replace escapement, and 80 hours power reserve.

H.Moser & Cie. Mayu Small Second for $6,463 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24

Picture from a different watch with same movement:


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## Zhanming057

ar7iste said:


> This morning I stumbled upon this Moser Mayu for $6,463.
> Moser is an interesting brand, which seems to be a lot more stable financially today that it was a few years ago. While some of their pieces tend to keep a high resale value, most models are good bargain pre-owned.
> This Mayu (old version of the endeavour I believe) has a beautiful movement with the famous Moser easy to replace escapement, and 80 hours power reserve.
> 
> H.Moser & Cie. Mayu Small Second for $6,463 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24
> 
> Picture from a different watch with same movement:


That display back is beautiful but that gigantic and suspiciously Helvetica-like 12 might be the most out of place number I've ever seen on a dial. This perpetual is also a great deal but damn, I'd like it about 100% more if they took the printed up/down off the dial.





__





H.Moser & Cie. Endeavour | Chrono24.com


H.Moser & Cie. Endeavour on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com





I really want to like Moser but it always seems like they first make a perfectly fine watch and then hit it a few times with the ugly stick. Same with Hautlence and they're run by the same guys. Maybe Benoit could give them a few pointers on how to match fonts to dials.


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## SethThomas

Here is one from Arnold & Son that popped up on one of my watch lists. $5,500 in 18K gold supposedly NEW condition HSM1 (I would ask for more Photos). Hard to beat that price for a hand finished 90HR power reserve movement. Seller has good reputation.





__





Arnold & Son HMS1 | Chrono24.com


Arnold & Son HMS1 on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com


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## KtWUS

Wow that A&S is indeed a bargain...


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## yonexsp

KtWUS said:


> Wow that A&S is indeed a bargain...


Is it hurt by its very traditional styling in front? A classic dress watch, but something I can imagine many would feel a little outdated in design?


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## Zhanming057

yonexsp said:


> Is it hurt by its very traditional styling in front? A classic dress watch, but something I can imagine many would feel a little outdated in design?


Gold is overall pretty soft in the market these days. The WG 1815 sells for something like $4,000 more than the RG on the used market. Great time to buy if you like gold watches.


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## capitalEU

apudabam said:


> I'll play-
> 
> One of the best bargains possible for a packed timepiece - although I really am no fan of the brand- RRP is $55,000 USD - available for as cheap as $10-15,000 USD brand new (chrono24).
> 
> Ulysse Nardin GMT dual time sonata has 5 amazing complications for ~ $10,000.
> 
> View attachment 15341655
> 
> (Picture from Internet)
> 
> It has a GMT, big date, second time zone, 24 hour alarm, timer countdown, as well as cathedral gongs - and it's beautiful to boot too. Not a UN fan but they have some Stellar pieces.


Thanks for posting this, I discovered a new watch that I love !


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## Cincy2

This is not an inexpensive piece at $30K US but you get four different watches so it is a bargain. It has two faces (front and back) like a reverso. The strap can be removed and a fob added to make it a pocket watch. Finally it has a fold out plate that makes it into a desk watch. Four for the price of one. Quite innovative.


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## dbostedo

Just saw this on Watchbox... it was always one of the more affordable perpetuals out there, and if you like it, you can't beat $5400 for a nice perpetual calendar...









Montblanc Heritage Spirit Perpetual Calendar 110715


Montblanc Heritage Spirit Perpetual Calendar 110715




www.thewatchbox.com


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## ar7iste

Today we can find a beautiful DeWitt twenty eight full moon on Titanium for $6,500. Yes, your eyes are not deceiving you, I am saying $6,500.

DeWitt is a brand I have always loved even though I do not necessarily adhere to their aesthetic choices. They are innovative, truly independent in their design choices and convey this feeling of « I am a watchmaker who does whatever he wants to do » more than trying to appeal to a specific audience. I am especially fond of their endless drive model.

The Full moon has a dial split between an aventurine portion, and an open dial with the moonphase module on display. Both are equally appealing to look at and it's hard to name the star of the show: the mother of pearl moonphase, the finely decorated module with nice anglage and polishing, or the dark blue and glossy gold aventurine.

Dewitt Twenty-8 Full Moon Titanium Automatic Men's Watch... for $6,500 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

Multiple examples are available below the $10k mark, so it clearly is tanking in value, which is a good buy in my books.

All the best,
A.


----------



## Contaygious

Zhanming057 said:


> I have one: Girard Perregaux Laureato Skeleton Ceramic for $15,000 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24
> 
> $15,000 for a skeletion GP in full ceramic. I have actually handled this watch and the obvious AP inspirations aside, it's incredibly well finished and a major step up from the Zenith Defy skeleton which retails for around $13k.


It's cool but the defy is superior technically and also the octo skeleton is a great deal.

I'd say UN freak x new for under 13k is cray on chrono


----------



## noboxnopaper

This thread is gold


----------



## WatchEater666

Great idea. I personally love the horological bang for buck you get with a lot of these smaller brands second hand. My only issue is that it's often hard to find a deal good enough to justify the risk but hey


----------



## Cincy2

Benzinger is a German watch company that manufacturers watches only when orders are received. They keep their costs down and deliver a unique product with engraving and decoration that matches the industry leaders for a price roughly half of what you would pay for a similar watch from some of the big names. The down side is you have to wait four months to get the watch. Totally worth it.


----------



## ar7iste

Cincy2 said:


> Benzinger is a German watch company that manufacturers watches only when orders are received. They keep their costs down and deliver a unique product with engraving and decoration that matches the industry leaders for a price roughly half of what you would pay for a similar watch from some of the big names. The down side is you have to wait four months to get the watch. Totally worth it.


Benzinger makes really eye catching pieces, and they used to work on custom projects for customers too (modifying existing calibers), I wonder if that's still the case.
They also worked on special pieces with other brands, like Chronoswiss. Very cool skeletonization work, old world style craftsmanship at its finest.


----------



## eddieo396

ar7iste said:


> A fairly rare watch produced by Minerva in the pre-Richemont era (pre 2006), this 2001 dress piece is super impressive, and almost impossible to find online. There is one currently for sale for just under $10K USD in Europe.
> .Minerva Chronometre Dial "Edition 2001" ref. M484900 Rose Gold - ATELIER TEMPUS
> 
> This watch is the epitome of classic European elegance to me. While ALS makes some of the best german-designed dress watches; PP and VC make the best swiss-designed dress watches with classical genevan-style movement construction (I personally prefer the Fleurier style movements like in the Chopard LUC 1860); this Minerva is a whole different design language all together. I think it is absolutely stunning and this Saint Imier-style decoration and construction resonates with my native Jura area (their Villeret manufacture is 100 miles away from my hometown).


Baby has BACK ...


----------



## dbostedo

Hard to call this one a bargain... but it's unusual, and available used for half of MSRP.... and I like it. 

The Girard Perregaux Constant Escapement LM. It's got the GP constant-force escapement setup which is very cool to watch, and a very interesting technology. And the main time on a subdial, which I generally like, in a titanium case.

Available on Watchbox for ~$45K:


----------



## dbostedo

Just came across this on Chrono24... seems like a good deal for a tourbillon with a beautiful grand feu dial... $17K.






Ulysse Nardin Marine Tourbillon | Chrono24.com


Ulysse Nardin Marine Tourbillon on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com


----------



## dbostedo

The AD I got my JD at has some black Friday deals... including this JD Les Lunes I thought I'd pass along here... new, rose gold, interesting moon phase, for $12K.















Royal Jewelers | Royal Jewelers | Shop


Shop Royal's large selection of Jewelry and Watches!




royaljewelers.com


----------



## MisterV

Great thread, I tried to start something similar on the Public forum, but didn't get the really interesting pieces there.

Now the only thing I'm crying about is my small wrist...


----------



## ChetBaker

Perhaps not as obscure, but the Vacheron Fiftysix Day-Date can be had for less than 12K euros grey. Remember this has the Geneva Seal on both case and movement (unlike the basic three-hander). I think it's a bargain. Full disclosure: I bought one.






Vacheron Constantin Fiftysix 4400E/000A-B437 | Ref. 4400E/000A-B437 Watches on Chrono24


Find low prices for 9 Vacheron Constantin ref. 4400E/000A-B437 watches on Chrono24. Compare deals and buy a ref. 4400E/000A-B437 watch.




www.chrono24.com


----------



## dinexus

ChetBaker said:


> Perhaps not as obscure, but the Vacheron Fiftysix Day-Date can be had for less than 12K euros grey. Remember this has the Geneva Seal on both case and movement (unlike the basic three-hander). I think it's a bargain. Full disclosure: I bought one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vacheron Constantin Fiftysix 4400E/000A-B437 | Ref. 4400E/000A-B437 Watches on Chrono24
> 
> 
> Find low prices for 9 Vacheron Constantin ref. 4400E/000A-B437 watches on Chrono24. Compare deals and buy a ref. 4400E/000A-B437 watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.com


Oh that's real interesting - I didn't think any of the Fifty-Six references had the seal. Thanks for sharing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cincy2

I'm taking a walk on the wild side with this piece. It's a regulator with a mechanical movement. Very creative dial layout unlike anything else I've seen. Not exactly rare. Not exactly a bargain but Ressence is definitely an interesting brand.

Cincy


----------



## Relo60

Interesting and excellent topic. Kudos OP. This one looks interesting, Franck Muller Transamerica World Time Ref 2000ww. Listed on Chrono 24


----------



## Zhanming057

Cincy2 said:


> I'm taking a walk on the wild side with this piece. It's a regulator with a mechanical movement. Very creative dial layout unlike anything else I've seen. Not exactly rare. Not exactly a bargain but Ressence is definitely an interesting brand.
> 
> Cincy


Ressence makes 400 pieces a year of which only 25% or so are oil filled - and then that's split between the Diver and the Type 3. It's rarer than probably half of the watches in this thread, which is saying something.


----------



## Cincy2

Zhanming057 said:


> Ressence makes 400 pieces a year of which only 25% or so are oil filled - and then that's split between the Diver and the Type 3. It's rarer than probably half of the watches in this thread, which is saying something.


I did not realize that. I found a Type 3 in black and should have it this week. Full review to follow. Just fascinating variation on our favorite theme.

Cincy


----------



## Zhanming057

Cincy2 said:


> I did not realize that. I found a Type 3 in black and should have it this week. Full review to follow. Just fascinating variation on our favorite theme.
> 
> Cincy


Please do. Glad to have another owner here on the forums.

Because of the rather unique fixed lugs, I recommend reaching out to Ressence BE first for straps and accessories. They have many more strap options than what they show online. I bought a fine grain black and a stitched rubber strap for mine a while back.


----------



## Cincy2

Zhanming057 said:


> Please do. Glad to have another owner here on the forums.
> 
> Because of the rather unique fixed lugs, I recommend reaching out to Ressence BE first for straps and accessories. They have many more strap options than what they show online. I bought a fine grain black and a stitched rubber strap for mine a while back.


Thanks for the recommendation. I am concerned about the strap since I prefer alligator for all my watches.

Cincy


----------



## ar7iste

Nice, more and more diversity, I love it! That's quite the collection you have now Cincy, it feels like in the past 6 months you've added so many unique pieces, it's kind of nuts.

A brand that has been mentioned but not a lot of people actually have pieces from is Jaquet Droz. I find some of their offerings to be quite exquisite and definitely off the beaten path. Right now the prices are close to 60-70% off MSRP for the white gold "entry-level" models like the Grande Seconde, or even the Double Fuseaux, or monopusher chronograph on chrono24. There is a plethora of dial options to choose from, and my only gripe would be the size of the case, as most of the models are 43mm wide. They do have a few 39, 40 and 41mm though but they are rarer.

I wish I could find a "paillonée" piece at a bargain but those are very scarce and rightfully so. Their aventurine and "stone" dials are absolutely gorgeous too, but also on the pricier side.

For a bargain, this model in particular is quite stunning and below $8k:
Jaquet-Droz Grande Seconde White Gold Champagne Guiollche Dial for $7,800 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24
A ton of opportunities with this brand for an unusual dress watch with a lot of appeal.


----------



## mlcor

One warning about Jaquet Droz, they wear very large due to the thin bezel. Even the 39mm can be challenging if you have a smaller wrist, so try before you buy...


----------



## Zhanming057

Cincy2 said:


> Thanks for the recommendation. I am concerned about the strap since I prefer alligator for all my watches.
> 
> Cincy


They have a gator option on special order. Personally, I think that the watch calls for something maximally understated - the original matte calfskin or cordovan - but if it's gator you want, I haven't found one done as well as Ressence themselves.


----------



## Zhanming057

mlcor said:


> One warning about Jaquet Droz, they wear very large due to the thin bezel. Even the 39mm can be challenging if you have a smaller wrist, so try before you buy...


The matte black ceramic ones wear much smaller. Also one of the cheapest ways to get any watch in full ceramic


----------



## ar7iste

Zhanming057 said:


> The matte black ceramic ones wear much smaller. Also one of the cheapest ways to get any watch in full ceramic


That reminds me that the IWC Top Gun Miramar Chronograph in ceramic are currently an excellent buy. The first gen (46mm) can be found for $6.5k on Chrono24 (retail was around $13.5k I believe).
Some will argue it is borderline high end, but a full ceramic case, almost 3 days PR, column wheel vertical clutch chrono is pretty neat in my books.

Anyway, I love the design so I will still post it (the 44mm version with the simpler date window).


----------



## dbostedo

Zhanming057 said:


> They have a gator option on special order. Personally, I think that the watch calls for something maximally understated - the original matte calfskin or cordovan - but if it's gator you want, I haven't found one done as well as Ressence themselves.
> 
> View attachment 15576111


I have a bunch of watches on gator straps... but if I got a Ressence like that, I would definitely not go for gator... doesn't seem to really suit it IMO.


----------



## Zhanming057

dbostedo said:


> I have a bunch of watches on gator straps... but if I got a Ressence like that, I would definitely not go for gator... doesn't seem to really suit it IMO.


Gator works better with the polished dials IMO. For my Type 1 I debated getting a matte gray gator, but eventually chose their special "honeycomb" material which is calf patterned to mimic a glossy fabric texture. A little less ostentatious and you can see why this is one of the factory straps of the 1S silver. Mine came with Ostrich which I'm also not a fan of.


----------



## dbostedo

Zhanming057 said:


> Gator works better with the polished dials IMO. For my Type 1 I debated getting a matte gray gator, but eventually chose their special "honeycomb" material which is calf patterned to mimic a glossy fabric texture. A little less ostentatious and you can see why this is one of the factory straps of the 1S silver. Mine came with Ostrich which I'm also not a fan of.


Those look great (especially the strap on the left)... I think they'd look weird on textured leather (gator, lizard, ostrich).


----------



## ar7iste

I am updating this thread with what I would consider a great sleeper watch: the GP traveller 2 moonphase GMT big date.
There is one available on chrono24 from a private US seller for $4,500, and honestly I am surprised it is still for sale.

Girard Perregaux Traveller for $4,500 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24

This watch is quite interesting as it has the famous "invisible" overlapping date discs to display the big date seamlessly (I know everyone loves the way Glashütte Original does it, but I personally don't, I can see the transition between the 2 and I am not big of that).
On top of that, you have a realistic moonphase and a GMT indicator, which makes it a quite interesting combination of complications. There is also a variant without the GMT and a power reserve indicator instead, but I think this specific reference is better.

Now, if I were to buy a GP traveller myself, it would have to be the sapphire dial variant which adds some fun to the dial, but it can't be found easily. I think this white dial is pretty neat and deserves some attention, it is also more classic and less busy than the sapphire dial.










All the best,
A.


----------



## dbostedo

ar7iste said:


> I am updating this thread with what I would consider a great sleeper watch: the GP traveller 2 moonphase GMT big date.
> There is one available on chrono24 from a private US seller for $4,500, and honestly I am surprised it is still for sale.
> 
> Girard Perregaux Traveller for $4,500 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24
> 
> This watch is quite interesting as it has the famous "invisible" overlapping date discs to display the big date seamlessly (I know everyone loves the way Glashütte Original does it, but I personally don't, I can see the transition between the 2 and I am not big of that).
> On top of that, you have a realistic moonphase and a GMT indicator, which makes it a quite interesting combination of complications. There is also a variant without the GMT and a power reserve indicator instead, but I think this specific reference is better.
> 
> Now, if I were to buy a GP traveller myself, it would have to be the sapphire dial variant which adds some fun to the dial, but it can't be found easily. I think this white dial is pretty neat and deserves some attention, it is also more classic and less busy than the sapphire dial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best,
> A.


Cool! I never knew GP did big dates like that. I love the one on my GO, line and all. Now I'm curious to see a GP and see how they do it.

EDIT: Looked it up. One of the digits is on a thin clear disc, so no line. But you can see a little difference at some angles apparently, as shown here, where the 4 is on the clear disc:


----------



## ar7iste

Yes the numbers are on different planes. In real life I have seen a vintage 1945 GP with the same complication and it is really neat. You don't really have that angle when it's on the wrist so it looks like it's floating in the window and is quite whimsical. You can see both discs on the sapphire dial variant.
I also really like LW's interpretation where the date wheels are skeletonized and it also avoids seam by making it part of the design.


----------



## Cincy2

Here is a pilot watch with a Tourbillon from Zenith that caught my eye. I love the oversize strap and the overall aesthetics.

Cincy


----------



## RidingDonkeys

I will never understand companies doing partial numerals. That Zenith would have been so much nicer had they just foregone the 10 and 12.


----------



## dbostedo

RidingDonkeys said:


> I will never understand companies doing partial numerals. That Zenith would have been so much nicer had they just foregone the 10 and 12.


Well of course "to each his/her own" and "there is no accounting for taste" apply. And there are many threads on cut off number with varying opinions. I like the cut off numbers almost all the time, as opposed to the alternatives, personally.


----------



## Cincy2

RidingDonkeys said:


> I will never understand companies doing partial numerals. That Zenith would have been so much nicer had they just foregone the 10 and 12.


In this case, I really do agree with you. The position of the tourbillon was a deal killer for me. I found an annual calendar version with a full face, same metals, same size, much different price. It's a beautiful example of the genre and has found a place on my wrist (soon).

Cincy


----------



## WTSP

dbostedo said:


> Well of course "to each his/her own" and "there is no accounting for taste" apply. And there are many threads on cut off number with varying opinions. I like the cut off numbers almost all the time, as opposed to the alternatives, personally.


I have to agree with dbostedo, the cut numerals being absent would create too much empty space and look strange. I prefer the cut ones. So far we've proven once again that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## ar7iste

A very rare bird popped up recently in the US:

Martin Braun Notos Complicated Equation of Time Watch 100% NIB... for $7,499 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24

This is a Martin Braun Notos, with equation of time complication. The dial is actually made of a stone named « cacholong », a sort of opal, which makes it look like porcelain or lacquer, but it is not. That's pretty neat and rare, and while the movement is a heavily modified ETA, the piece is very unique.


----------



## thewatchidiot

ar7iste said:


> A very rare bird popped up recently in the US:
> 
> Martin Braun Notos Complicated Equation of Time Watch 100% NIB... for $7,499 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24
> 
> This is a Martin Braun Notos, with equation of time complication. The dial is actually made of a stone named « cacholong », a sort of opal, which makes it look like porcelain or lacquer, but it is not. That's pretty neat and rare, and while the movement is a heavily modified ETA, the piece is very unique.
> 
> View attachment 15719186


That is a looker, just don't know if it's a good looker. It may take some time for that

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## WTSP

ar7iste said:


> A very rare bird popped up recently in the US:
> 
> Martin Braun Notos Complicated Equation of Time Watch 100% NIB... for $7,499 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24
> 
> This is a Martin Braun Notos, with equation of time complication. The dial is actually made of a stone named « cacholong », a sort of opal, which makes it look like porcelain or lacquer, but it is not. That's pretty neat and rare, and while the movement is a heavily modified ETA, the piece is very unique.
> 
> View attachment 15719186


That's a very interesting piece, I like the complications, dial and materials. It's a Soprod A10 base though, not an ETA. I place Martin Braun in low esteem for repeatedly calling his MAB 88 a manufacture in-house movement despite it clearly being a Soprod A10, which in turn is based on the Seiko 4L25. Maybe he adapted the Seiko movement to create the MAB 88 prior to Soprod eventually acquiring it, but that's purely a hypothesis. In any case, he was stretching the truth when calling it in-house.

Edit: Apparently the Soprod A10 was launched in 2004 while the MAB 88 was launched in 2007.
"The movement is the newly designed MAB88. Martin spent 3 years designing this original automatic movement which is now being constructed by the vertically integrated manufacturing capabilities of Watchland. This movement is exclusive to Martin Braun watches..."
A sampling of Martin Braun's astronomical timepieces

"This enabled Braun to create a movement, the MAB 88, based on a movement produced by Franck Muller."
Martin Braun - Contrapante

"Braun had decided to that it was time to create his own movement to power his astronomical complications [...] Caliber MAB 88 [...]"
Wristwatch Annual 2008

That's BS Martin, you and/or your marking team were lying.


----------



## ar7iste

WTSP said:


> That's a very interesting piece, I like the complications, dial and materials. It's a Soprod A10 base though, not an ETA. I place Martin Braun in low esteem for repeatedly calling his MAB 88 a manufacture in-house movement despite it clearly being a Soprod A10, which in turn is based on the Seiko 4L25. Maybe he adapted the Seiko movement to create the MAB 88 prior to Soprod eventually acquiring it, but that's purely my own hypothesis. In any case, he was stretching the truth when calling it in-house.


Thank you for correcting on the movement. I could not find a lot of information and I saw on timezone that they called it an ETA 2892 with the module on top of that. Good to know it's a Soprod. Indeed, I do hate it when there is opacity around the provenance of the movement.


----------



## IllCommunication

This has been one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time. Keep em coming. Some really cool stuff on here.


----------



## 1Rob

Fantastic thread. I have been enjoying and learning a lot.


----------



## dinexus

ar7iste said:


> I am updating this thread with what I would consider a great sleeper watch: the GP traveller 2 moonphase GMT big date.
> There is one available on chrono24 from a private US seller for $4,500, and honestly I am surprised it is still for sale.
> 
> Girard Perregaux Traveller for $4,500 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24
> 
> This watch is quite interesting as it has the famous "invisible" overlapping date discs to display the big date seamlessly (I know everyone loves the way Glashütte Original does it, but I personally don't, I can see the transition between the 2 and I am not big of that).
> On top of that, you have a realistic moonphase and a GMT indicator, which makes it a quite interesting combination of complications. There is also a variant without the GMT and a power reserve indicator instead, but I think this specific reference is better.
> 
> Now, if I were to buy a GP traveller myself, it would have to be the sapphire dial variant which adds some fun to the dial, but it can't be found easily. I think this white dial is pretty neat and deserves some attention, it is also more classic and less busy than the sapphire dial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All the best,
> A.


This is a killer watch, and almost perfect were it not for the fact that the pusher adjusts the 24hr hand, and not the local time. So not actually a "traveler" at all, but still pretty excellent. The case is really comfortable and beautifully made.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ar7iste

dinexus said:


> This is a killer watch, and almost perfect were it not for the fact that the pusher adjusts the 24hr hand, and not the local time. So not actually a "traveler" at all, but still pretty excellent. The case is really comfortable and beautifully made.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are so right! I don't know what happened in the mind of the product manager who released this watch. Why would they do that? It is beyond my comprehension.


----------



## IllCommunication

dinexus said:


> This is a killer watch, and almost perfect were it not for the fact that the pusher adjusts the 24hr hand, and not the local time. So not actually a "traveler" at all, but still pretty excellent. The case is really comfortable and beautifully made.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait, what? WHY? How many times would you screw that up and then get upset at yourself? Sheesh


----------



## ar7iste

Updating this thread for a mechanical Marvel that is currently on sale at the "low" price of $54k: DeWitt Academia Mathematical Automatic // AC.MAT.001 // New

While this Dewitt Academia Mathematical is still very expensive, it is a relative bargain compared to its MSRP and competitors with similar complications. The fumé dial keeps all the interesting mechanisms in view of the wearer, and every single minute change is a feast for the eyes. Definitely an awesome piece with a design language that is very unique to Dewitt. I really love the font of the numerals and the design of the wheels interconnecting which give the piece a whimsical feeling.


----------



## ar7iste

A few days ago I found this gem for $3.4K.
Jaquet Droz L'Origine Email 88pcs

An enamel dial JD, in SS case forroughly 60% of MSRP. This is a great entry to high end I think, as it adds some classic design to an unconventional movement and dial. It is a fairly consensual piece for JD.


----------



## En_Nissen

ar7iste said:


> A few days ago I found this gem for $3.4K.
> Jaquet Droz L'Origine Email 88pcs
> 
> An enamel dial JD, in SS case forroughly 60% of MSRP. This is a great entry to high end I think, as it adds some classic design to an unconventional movement and dial. It is a fairly consensual piece for JD.
> 
> View attachment 15784064


Not really a place in the world I'd be happy to buy a luxury watch from, but it is indeed a horogical bargain! Definitely had to look twice at the price for a grand feu enamel dial and a decent looking movement too.

Sendt fra min Redmi Note 7 med Tapatalk


----------



## Cincy2

Daniel Roth made some spectacular watches in small quantities under his own name until 2000. At this time, Bulgari bought out his company along with Gerald Genta's. The watches Daniel made prior to selling his company are getting harder to find. One of my sources seems to have a knack for finding these unique pieces. Manufactured some time prior to 2000, this watch has a perpetual calendar, a tourbillon and an automatic wind feature. It fits like a glove and has a dial that you can't stop looking at. The few scratches that it came with demonstrate it was worn and loved by someone. Now its my turn.

Cincy


----------



## sieglo

That is an incredible watch. Congrats!


----------



## AAMC

First time here as I collect Omega watches, made an offer on this White Gold JD ... let's see...


----------



## mykii

I don't think I've ever seen something with as much intrinsic value as this watch (at its listed price point).

An IWC with in-house perpetual calendar with moonphase _and _chronograph for a mere $6,700 at C&C... Like, seriously? That is a TON of watch for the money.

If I had larger wrists I would have snapped this up, I hope someone else does.









Authentic Used IWC GST Perpetual Calendar IW3756-15 Watch (10-10-IWC-7PADXZ)


Buy an authentic used IWC GST Perpetual Calendar IW3756-15 (10-10-IWC-7PADXZ) watch from our IWC collection. Save up to 50% on all pre owned watches at Crown and Caliber.




www.crownandcaliber.com


----------



## apermanand

Wanted to share this one to remove the temptation!

Brand new, box/papers, 18k, classic looks... all for $6k, what's not to love? Well, maybe the logo...


----------



## chap

This is a very dangerous thread. I've been itching for a perpetual calendar.


----------



## WatchEater666

Bump


----------



## Mediocre

Not mine, no relation to seller. A good deal on a white gold Parmigiani









FS Parmigiani Toric 36mm


For sale is my gently used Parmigiani Toric. It is an early model(late 90s/early 00s) and measures 36mm. The case is white gold. There are no noticeable scratches/nicks on anywhere and timekeeping is good. Watch comes with the original WG buckle too but no boxes/papers. Asking $6500 OBRO...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## SethThomas

1 day 10 hours as of this post on a gorgeous black guilloche and rose gold Urban Jurgensen. Sitting at $15K and 0 bids on Sotheby's. (not my piece at auction to be clear)





















https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/important-watches-part-ii/ref-1140-l-pink-gold-wristwatch-circa-2019?locale=en&cmp=actn_WAT__aff_lpv_onl_GE2111_en_05-21_int_chrono24_ldp_lolist___435_


----------



## SethThomas

Ooooooooh. 
Sotheby's grossly misscalculed the range of this Breguet Tradition Tourbillon. Currently sitting at $20K with only 16 hours left. 6 bids, but I have to imagine the bidders know this is worth a lot more. I can't see this going under $33K



https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/important-watches-part-ii/classique-ref-3350br-12-286-pink-gold-tourbillon-2


----------



## WatchEater666

SethThomas said:


> Ooooooooh.
> Sotheby's grossly misscalculed the range of this Breguet Tradition Tourbillon. Currently sitting at $20K with only 16 hours left. 6 bids, but I have to imagine the bidders know this is worth a lot more. I can't see this going under $33K
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/important-watches-part-ii/classique-ref-3350br-12-286-pink-gold-tourbillon-2


Wow, I wonder what it comes to after paying hammer fees etc


----------



## dbostedo

SethThomas said:


> Sotheby's grossly misscalculed the range of this Breguet Tradition Tourbillon. Currently sitting at $20K with only 16 hours left.


Couple of thoughts:

-- It's in CHF, so more like $22K. But that's a nit.
-- Do you think the Sotheby's estimate looking low is affecting the bidding? I wouldn't really think so, personally.
-- If there are knowledgeable bidders competing - and it seems like there would be - then whatever it goes for is what it's worth, regardless of anything else.

Though I'm not familiar with these watches and what they normally go for, it's a 36mm watch, which may limit the market somewhat. Where did your $33K number come from? Has that been a typical price on watches like this?

If nothing else, you've made me really curious to see what it ultimately goes for.


----------



## SethThomas

dbostedo said:


> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> -- It's in CHF, so more like $22K. But that's a nit.
> -- Do you think the Sotheby's estimate looking low is affecting the bidding? I wouldn't really think so, personally.
> -- If there are knowledgeable bidders competing - and it seems like there would be - then whatever it goes for is what it's worth, regardless of anything else.
> 
> Though I'm not familiar with these watches and what they normally go for, it's a 36mm watch, which may limit the market somewhat. Where did your $33K number come from? Has that been a typical price on watches like this?
> 
> If nothing else, you've made me really curious to see what it ultimately goes for.


I regularly watch Breguet listings. I'll be honest and say I do not know what the sale prices are, but the lowest listing I've seen is around $35K. Watchbox and other high street second hand dealers list them for about $45K if in great condition.

Traffic seems low on these bids, on the whole collection that is up. I think the "hammer price" must be rather high here. I have never bought from a big name auction house.


----------



## dbostedo

SethThomas said:


> I think the "hammer price" must be rather high here.


Well the hammer price is just the winning bid. Then there's the buyer's premium added to it, and possibly other fees.

The Sotheby's buyer's premium for Swiss auctions is 25%. Plus there is a 1% overhead premium, and possibly local taxes.

https://www.sothebys.com/1-february-2021-buyers-premium.pdf

So the current 20,000 CHF bid, if it won, would actually net out to 25,200 CHF, or about $27,850.


----------



## SethThomas

dbostedo said:


> Well the hammer price is just the winning bid. Then there's the buyer's premium added to it, and possibly other fees.
> 
> The Sotheby's buyer's premium for Swiss auctions is 25%. Plus there is a 1% overhead premium, and possibly local taxes.
> 
> https://www.sothebys.com/1-february-2021-buyers-premium.pdf
> 
> So the current 20,000 CHF bid, if it won, would actually net out to 25,200 CHF, or about $27,850.


Yikes... those fees are crazy. I can see bidding is so low. Still a good deal (if it goes for that price)


----------



## SILES89

Plus it doesn't come with a box, which may be a deal breaker for some.


----------



## WatchEater666

SethThomas said:


> Yikes... those fees are crazy. I can see bidding is so low. Still a good deal (if it goes for that price)


Yeah which is why I don't get auctions in general. Seem to be an awful deal for buyers, especially given most pieces on auction aren't even that rare.


----------



## SethThomas

WatchEater666 said:


> Yeah which is why I don't get auctions in general. Seem to be an awful deal for buyers, especially given most pieces on auction aren't even that rare.





dbostedo said:


> Well the hammer price is just the winning bid. Then there's the buyer's premium added to it, and possibly other fees.
> 
> The Sotheby's buyer's premium for Swiss auctions is 25%. Plus there is a 1% overhead premium, and possibly local taxes.
> 
> https://www.sothebys.com/1-february-2021-buyers-premium.pdf
> 
> So the current 20,000 CHF bid, if it won, would actually net out to 25,200 CHF, or about $27,850.


Well, I hope the buyer knows the premiums. Sold for 27720, which puts the hammer price at 34997 CHF or 38552 USD

I'm not sure how much a deal that is if they have local sales tax and import fees to pay too.


----------



## dbostedo

SethThomas said:


> Well, I hope the buyer knows the premiums. Sold for 27720, which puts the hammer price at 34997 CHF or 38552 USD
> 
> I'm not sure how much a deal that is if they have local sales tax and import fees to pay too.


One correction... the "hammer price" is 27,720. It's just a term for the bid when the hammer comes down. The 34,997 would be the price with premiums.


----------



## mykii

The types of people who bid at large auction house auctions more than know the hammer price fees... it's just a different type of buyer, that most of us will not be able to relate to.

Plus, the provenance of the auction house is then transposed onto the watch (ex-Christie's, ex-Sotheby's etc.) which adds more value. It is the same system as in the antiquities world - if it isn't from a highly reputed private collector or dealer, many items are basically worthless until it passes through an auction house. There's more meaning/considerations behind those items, however the pretentiousness part still applies to watches and (again) this is more a "class of buyer" thing that most of us will never relate to.


----------



## Whitebread

Maybe I’m not “most of us” but I have bought a few watches (and other stuff) from auction houses. The buyer’s premium is always different and you have to take it into account.

However, there are places where the hammer price = final price, but they are rare.

I don’t think being ex-auction house increases the value but you have more safety as far as fakes are concerned. And sometimes you can get a bargain as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WatchEater666

Whitebread said:


> Maybe I'm not "most of us" but I have bought a few watches (and other stuff) from auction houses. The buyer's premium is always different and you have to take it into account.
> 
> However, there are places where the hammer price = final price, but they are rare.
> 
> I don't think being ex-auction house increases the value but you have more safety as far as fakes are concerned. And sometimes you can get a bargain as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure it's any safer than buying from a reputable dealer like Burdeens, WatchBox, etc... Well known auction houses have been caught selling fake art worth 8 and 9 figures. Not sure they run more dd on a 6 figure watch? 

Personally I occasionally buy from dealers but only when I have to if the piece is rare or going new is less expensive.


----------



## Whitebread

WatchEater666 said:


> Not sure it's any safer than buying from a reputable dealer like Burdeens, WatchBox, etc... Well known auction houses have been caught selling fake art worth 8 and 9 figures. Not sure they run more dd on a 6 figure watch?
> 
> Personally I occasionally buy from dealers but only when I have to if the piece is rare or going new is less expensive.


I don't necessarily mean safer compared to reputable dealers but compared to ebay (pre-authentication) and private sellers on Chrono24 etc. especially when buying sight unseen. In the past 20 years I have gotten two Frankenwatches from auctions and was able to return both for a full refund.

On ebay I sometimes see fakes with high bids and descriptions formulated so that I doubt the buyers were able to return them. "Dial says Rolex" is not untrue when describing a fake Rolex...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WatchEater666

Whitebread said:


> I don't necessarily mean safer compared to reputable dealers but compared to ebay (pre-authentication) and private sellers on Chrono24 etc. especially when buying sight unseen. In the past 20 years I have gotten two Frankenwatches from auctions and was able to return both for a full refund.
> 
> On ebay I sometimes see fakes with high bids and descriptions formulated so that I doubt the buyers were able to return them. "Dial says Rolex" is not untrue when describing a fake Rolex...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


For sure! Yeah the frankenwatch thing is real. Someone sold me a fauxlex with a real movement in it (???) with other fake parts once. Luckily I got my money back but weird experience and I stay away from Rolex completely now.


----------



## WTSP

I've been a big proponent of selling watches on eBay at $1 auctions. I've found that it's easy to get a solid price and guaranteed sale that way. That's worked for me with watches in the hundreds and low four figures.

However, my recent invoice total was about 11.5% of the sale total, which was okay, but still a little pricey. Also, eBay will get you a solid mid level price, but it won't reach the elite clientele that pays the type of money that the fancy auction houses command. I've got a low five figure watch I'm looking at selling and might choose to do it on Chrono24 at 6.5%. I feel that Chrono24's concentration in watches and general approach may be better suited to the five figure price tiers. Also, I still don't know what to think of eBay's authentication service. It seems to me one risks some weird outcome during the authentication process like eBay concluding that a part that is an OEM original from the brand is not original to the model and making a comment or some other note that causes dissatisfaction to the buyer.

My other option is to bring it to Geneva next time I visit (hopefully this year) and hand deliver it to local auction house. I'd expect to get a higher price, but the process and fees are totally unknown to me and I'd be afraid to be taken for a ride, ending with lower net revenue despite the selling price being higher.

Anyway, to keep this thread at least partially on topic, it almost pains me to be posting these because I'm tempted to buy either one of them myself, but these Bertolucci Genus 701 models looks like absurdly good value at USD $1k. Look at the shock protected escape wheel on this beautifully finished Frederic Piguet 21. It's been said on this forum that the JLC Ultrathin manual wind is possibly the lowest cost high end watch on the market. To me the Bertolucci Genus is in the same league, but with styling and branding that make it less visible to the collectors' market.

Bertolucci Genus Manual Wind Watch, Frederic Piguet Calibre 21 | eBay
Bertolucci Genus Model 701 34/100 Numbered Edition with Piguet 21 movement | eBay


----------



## Noalio

This Tourbillon by Parmigiani Fleurier was sold at Christies recently for "only 26k usd", a nice price in my opinion considering the finishing

6 interiors angles, a impressive case and a spectacular tourbillon bridge


----------



## dbostedo

Noalio said:


> This Tourbillon by Parmigiani Fleurier was sold at Christies recently for "only 26k usd", a nice price in my opinion considering the finishing
> 
> 6 interiors angles, a impressive case and a spectacular tourbillon bridge


That does seem like a good price. Something like half of what I thought it would be. Do you know what Christie's estimate was on it?


----------



## Noalio

dbostedo said:


> That does seem like a good price. Something like half of what I thought it would be. Do you know what Christie's estimate was on it?











PARMIGIANI, PINK GOLD, SEMI-SKELETONISED WITH TOURBILLON


CIRCA: 2000 CASE MATERIAL: 18k pink gold DIAMETER: 40 mm. STRAP MATERIAL: Brown unsigned embossed leather strapDIAL: Semi-skeletonised MOVEMENT: ManualBUCKLE: 18k pink gold Parmigiani buckle FUNCTIONS: TourbillonWITH: Blank Certificate of Authenticity, blank Service Record, product literature...




onlineonly.christies.com




The estimate was HKD 120,000 - HKD 160,000, the hammer price was 160k HKD + 25% fees


----------



## SethThomas

Every now and then Watchbox has a good deal.









Pre-Owned Ulysse Nardin GMT Perpetual 320-22/31


Pre-Owned Ulysse Nardin GMT Perpetual 320-22/31




www.thewatchbox.com





The UN perpetual Calander +/- GMT. I actually own this one in yellow gold, one of my favorites. They are asking $13,500, and it's fully serviced with box and papers.

Very excellent price given they themselves are selling 3 other at +$6000 more than this one (in exact same condition)... cant see why they discounted this one so much.


----------



## SethThomas

Here is this Arnold & Son CTB. Super cool complication to see in action. Movement is amazingly finished with the heaviest anglage I've seen on a watch. MSRP is over $42,000 and was a limited production run. Average price second hand I've seen is around $19,000. Here for $12,000.






Arnold & Son Watches | Chrono24.com


Arnold & Son watches in stock now. New offers daily. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch on Chrono24.com.




www.chrono24.com


----------



## Rain164845

Noalio said:


> This Tourbillon by Parmigiani Fleurier was sold at Christies recently for "only 26k usd", a nice price in my opinion considering the finishing
> 
> 6 interiors angles, a impressive case and a spectacular tourbillon bridge


If I'm paying that much for a watch, all the screw heads better line up. I'm not paying that for a watch though.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## highendtime.com

SethThomas said:


> Ooooooooh.
> Sotheby's grossly misscalculed the range of this Breguet Tradition Tourbillon. Currently sitting at $20K with only 16 hours left. 6 bids, but I have to imagine the bidders know this is worth a lot more. I can't see this going under $33K
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/important-watches-part-ii/classique-ref-3350br-12-286-pink-gold-tourbillon-2


I think it's because of all the auction fees on top. With 25% or more this will easily inch up beyond what anyone can refer to as a reasonable price.

But let's see, beautiful watch though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mykii

Rain164845 said:


> If I'm paying that much for a watch, all the screw heads better line up. I'm not paying that for a watch though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Wait, let me get this straight...You joined WUS 6 months ago, to post only once, in the high-end forum (typically $30k is on the low-end around here), where you claim you'd never spend 26k on a watch (let alone an independent complete with bespoke casing and a Tourbillon to boot)? 🤡


----------



## Rain164845

mykii said:


> Wait, let me get this straight...You joined WUS 6 months ago, to post only once, in the high-end forum (typically $30k is on the low-end around here), where you claim you'd never spend 26k on a watch (let alone an independent complete with bespoke casing and a Tourbillon to boot)?


I'm somewhat of a connoisseur. But really, that's a basic craftsmanship issue.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Mediocre

Rain164845 said:


> I'm somewhat of a connoisseur. But really, that's a basic craftsmanship issue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Interesting take, I actually prefer the non-aligned screws. It feels more function than form, in a watch that has form in spades.


----------



## Zama

Rain164845 said:


> I'm somewhat of a connoisseur. But really, that's a basic craftsmanship issue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


It's really not though.









Technical Perspective: Why Screw Slots Aren't Aligned In Watchmaking


Rage, rage against the misalignment of the screw heads.




www.hodinkee.com





Unless you think you know better than the best watchmakers in the world. If aligning screws was a reasonable thing, nth degree finishing watchmakers like gruebel would be doing it.


----------



## WatchEater666

Rain164845 said:


> I'm somewhat of a connoisseur. But really, that's a basic craftsmanship issue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


No it's not lol. 🤣


----------



## WTSP

Zama said:


> It's really not though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technical Perspective: Why Screw Slots Aren't Aligned In Watchmaking
> 
> 
> Rage, rage against the misalignment of the screw heads.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.hodinkee.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you think you know better than the best watchmakers in the world. If aligning screws was a reasonable thing, nth degree finishing watchmakers like gruebel would be doing it.


I don't know, I think I agree with Rain164845. There are screws all over that dial, all oriented in different direction. Personally I feel it's an eyesore. Bearing in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think it mars an otherwise flawless piece. Having many screws visible on a dial is already going to be a polarizing feature. Having little slots that are all oriented differently compounds that.

As for Roger Smith's statement in the Hodinkee article...
"The screws are never aligned because it would be a very difficult engineering task to make sure that the start of each thread within the dial plate began in exactly the same orientation ... the length of the screw thread from the start of its thread to the underside of the screw-head would be critical and you would have to achieve ridiculously close tolerances."

I find it ironic that a high caliber watchmaker would complain that a certain feature what too difficult to engineer and that tolerances would be too close to be achievable. I could let it pass on the back of a movement, but if you're going to make those screws a dial feature on a precious metal tourbillon, I think there's an argument for alignment. Of course it all depends on each individual buyer's taste.

Also, alignment is one thing, but a harmonized aesthetically pleasing variation in orientations is even better.


----------



## dbostedo

WTSP said:


> I don't know, I think I agree with Rain164845. There are screws all over that dial, all oriented in different direction. Personally I feel it's an eyesore. Bearing in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think it mars an otherwise flawless piece. Having many screws visible on a dial is already going to be a polarizing feature. Having little slots that are all oriented differently compounds that.
> 
> As for Roger Smith's statement in the Hodinkee article...
> "The screws are never aligned because it would be a very difficult engineering task to make sure that the start of each thread within the dial plate began in exactly the same orientation ... the length of the screw thread from the start of its thread to the underside of the screw-head would be critical and you would have to achieve ridiculously close tolerances."
> 
> I find it ironic that a high caliber watchmaker would complain that a certain feature what too difficult to engineer and that tolerances would be too close to be achievable. I could let it pass on the back of a movement, but if you're going to make those screws a dial feature on a precious metal tourbillon, I think there's an argument for alignment. Of course it all depends on each individual buyer's taste.
> 
> Also, alignment is one thing, but a harmonized aesthetically pleasing variation in orientations is even better.


In part it depends on the function of the screw. If the tightness/torque is not critical, they could be tightened/loosened to align them a certain way. I'm guessing that B&R does that in addition to JD (total guess though):










I have no idea what kind of tolerances they have to be able to acheive in order to do this, or how functional/non-functional those screws are. I do know there are many expensive brands that don't bother to align screws (or screwdown crowns) as mentioned in the Hodikee article, so it's not trivial.

Here're some discussion on it, from woodworking that talks briefly about techniques:

How to 'Time' or 'Clock' Your Screw Heads | Popular Woodworking Magazine

Those methods probably would be difficult on watch-sized parts or non-starters for high-end watches. I suspect it's more likely that you'd start with longer than needed screws and threads, and shave down the length of the screws little by little, trying them repeatedly until they align.


----------



## Zhanming057

WTSP said:


> I don't know, I think I agree with Rain164845. There are screws all over that dial, all oriented in different direction. Personally I feel it's an eyesore. Bearing in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think it mars an otherwise flawless piece. Having many screws visible on a dial is already going to be a polarizing feature. Having little slots that are all oriented differently compounds that.
> 
> As for Roger Smith's statement in the Hodinkee article...
> "The screws are never aligned because it would be a very difficult engineering task to make sure that the start of each thread within the dial plate began in exactly the same orientation ... the length of the screw thread from the start of its thread to the underside of the screw-head would be critical and you would have to achieve ridiculously close tolerances."
> 
> I find it ironic that a high caliber watchmaker would complain that a certain feature what too difficult to engineer and that tolerances would be too close to be achievable. I could let it pass on the back of a movement, but if you're going to make those screws a dial feature on a precious metal tourbillon, I think there's an argument for alignment. Of course it all depends on each individual buyer's taste.
> 
> Also, alignment is one thing, but a harmonized aesthetically pleasing variation in orientations is even better.


The photos you attached are reference photos that may have been specially adjusted for press/photoshoots, and aren't meant to be inside a functional watch. For JD, those are not real screws but ornamental AP-style, the actual heads are on the other side of the dial.

And it's not just Roger Smith (although his word would IMO be enough on the matter). I have heard as much from watchmakers at Laurent Ferrier and GS Micro Artist Studio. This is probably one of the best hand-finished display back in existence, and it does not have aligned screw heads. Simply impossible at watch screw scale, unless it is a true one-off.


----------



## dbostedo

Zhanming057 said:


> Simply impossible at watch screw scale, unless it is a true one-off.


Well impossible and one-off probably aren't right... I think it's more likely that it's a lot of labor, and not an amount watchmaker's are willing to commit to, or buyers are willing to pay for.


----------



## Zama

Zhanming057 said:


> The photos you attached are reference photos that may have been specially adjusted for press/photoshoots, and aren't meant to be inside a functional watch. For JD, those are not real screws but ornamental AP-style, the actual heads are on the other side of the dial.
> 
> And it's not just Roger Smith (although his word would IMO be enough on the matter). I have heard as much from watchmakers at Laurent Ferrier and GS Micro Artist Studio. This is probably one of the best hand-finished display back in existence, and it does not have aligned screw heads. Simply impossible at watch screw scale, unless it is a true one-off.


Not to mention, the wear and tear from a single service may be enough to cause the screws to fall out of alignment


----------



## Zama

dbostedo said:


> Well impossible and one-off probably aren't right... *I think it's more likely that it's a lot of labor, and not an amount watchmaker's are willing to commit to, or buyers are willing to pay for.*


When $1M finishing oriented watches like the greubel handmade one still don't even offer it, I have a really hard time believing it. In that instance, the commitment is clearly there from both the buyers and sellers vantage point. It's the point of the watch - to pay for all that labor.

I think what it comes down to is these are tiny precision machines. And as a functional part of a tiny precision machine, screws quite simply have to be torqued as much as they have to be torqued.

Not to mention, who knows if the screws would even remain in alignment after the wear and tear of a single service


----------



## dbostedo

Zama said:


> When $1M finishing oriented watches like the greubel handmade one still don't even offer it, I have a really hard time believing it. In that instance, the commitment is clearly there from both the buyers and sellers vantage point. It's the point of the watch - to pay for all that labor.


That's a very good point. But I'd contend that the buyer's just don't care enough. Maybe if it was pointed out to buyers, they'd want it or it would become a selling point... but it doesn't appear to be one now.


----------



## GrouchoM

I'd imagine that, if you wanted to pay VERY high end manufacturer like Greubel enough money, they'd make the slots align with each other. 
I'd like to see Moser make an octangular watch with screws that are linked via gears such that they rotate in unison. 

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## SISL

dbostedo said:


> That's a very good point. But I'd contend that the buyer's just don't care enough. Maybe if it was pointed out to buyers, they'd want it or it would become a selling point... but it doesn't appear to be one now.


That.

The tolerance are very small, but I don't think they're beyond what's feasible nowadays with computer-guided tools. You would need to know exactly the thickness of the material, and it's resistance to distortion. You would need to choose a material for the screws that would be very rigid, and you would maybe have to custom made the screws. I _think_ that those are not beyond the capabilities of modern top-of-the-line watch makers. However the additional cost might not be worth it to the buyers. Or it might be something that nobody has given a serious try at to find whether there's a market for it.

WRT the Seiko back, it might be extremely well finished but it's clear that Seiko is going for understated here.


----------



## WTSP

I concede that based on all the evidence, it’s likely not feasible to line up screw heads regardless of the pricing tier of a watch.

It seems to me that the approach is either:
A) Aesthetic screws for which the orientation can be controlled are usually made to align. Ex: AP ROO bezel screws.
B) Functional screws that can't feasibly be made to align do not.
C) Rare instanced in which screws have both moderately functional and aesthetic roles which allow watchmakers to tighten them selectively for alignment.


----------



## Mediocre

There are short cuts that could be taken to line them up, which are more cost and time effective for initial assembly than the best options. They are poor options for future service. I am actually glad watchmakers opt for the long term benefit, unlike many auto manufacturers.


----------



## ar7iste

This weekend, I came upon an incredible bargain. The dealer is in the US, and the price is really good for such a piece.
This is a GO Senator Panorama date moonphase. At 37mm, it is beautifully executed. Yes, it has the older movement generation that is not as impressive as the newer GO in 40+mm cases have, but it is still an impressive timepiece.

I would definitely have bought it if I needed another dress watch (which I don't as I never wear them). Only thing to note is that it is running slow according to the seller (10/15 sec slow a day), which is not alarming but just something to consider.

Glashütte Original Senator Panorama Moonphase w/ Leather... for $3,995 for sale from a Seller on Chrono24


----------



## dbostedo

Bumping this as I was just checking out (virtually) this Montblanc Tourbillion... the 4810 Exo Slim... the interesting thing is the combo of features... 10.4mm thick, microrotor auto, and a hacking tourbillon, which is kind of rare.









Introducing: The Montblanc 4810 ExoTourbillon Slim


This year is a big year for Montblanc and the ExoTourbillon. They have released three watches with the ExoTourbillon movement: the TimeWalker ExoTourbillon Minute Chronograph, the 4810 ExoTourbillon Slim 110 Years, and now the ExoTourbillon Slim. The Slim is slightly different than the previous...




www.hodinkee.com













Montblanc 4810 Exo Tourbillon Slim


Model: 114864 Royal Jewelers offers the largest certified pre-owned watch selection located in the Boston, Massachusetts area. Royal Jewelers offers this certified pre-owned Montblanc Exo Tourbillon Slim in mint condition. This Montblanc watch was originally purchased in December 2019 and is...




royaljewelers.com


----------



## Mediocre

Not mine, no relation to seller. White gold, micro-rotor, beautifully decorated movement Parmigiani right here on WUS for just over $6k. Beautiful watch.









FS: Parmigiani Tonda 1950 18k White Gold Cream Dial -...


For your consideration I have a white gold Parmigiani Tonda 1950 with the cream dial. The watch was purchased new in March 2021 and comes with the remainder of the warranty. The watch is in near mint overall condition, with only a minor mark at the 12 o'clock area of the bezel as well as very...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## ar7iste

Another Arnold & Son, those are pretty reliably under $6k and offer tremendous value in my opinion for the movement finishing you get.

Arnold & Son HMS1 Anthracite 40mm for $5,200 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24


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## Contaygious

OMG Yes that Arnold & Son is a killer. I still can't find the dead beat seconds one I want.


----------



## Relo60

ar7iste said:


> Another Arnold & Son, those are pretty reliably under $6k and offer tremendous value in my opinion for the movement finishing you get.
> 
> Arnold & Son HMS1 Anthracite 40mm for $5,200 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24


Really underrated👍🏼


----------



## Mediocre

Not mine, no relation to seller. Not one that pops up on WUS often









Jaeger & Benzinger Limited Edition Breguet Frost Roman


You can't get hand guilloche like this for this price. Jochen Benzinger is truly master of the rose engine and hand guilloche. This watch is in excellent condition. There is a hairline mark in the bezel (shown in a picture below). The mark is barely noticible. Only under studio lights can...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## ar7iste

A brand with a shady owner, questionable taste, but that doesn’t lack creativity and bold designs.
Jacob & Co. is intriguing as they do have interesting movements and case constructions on some of their models. The Epic X Chrono is their sportier and maybe least outrageous piece. I actually quite like the work on the dial, the concepto movement and the internal rotating bezel. It is also 200m water resistant with no date, which makes it a good option for people who will actually use it as a sports watch.
Here we can find it for roughly half of its retail price, when they usually are found around $15k to $17k.

Jacob & Co. Epic X Chrono for $13,250 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24


----------



## WTSP

Interesting watch. Looks like it's the same movement as the Graham Silverstone RS Skeleton. I think that the Graham makes better use of the movement as it doesn't obscure the nice weighted balance as much as the J&Co.










It's also got an interesting little side view crystal.










Both pieces are more like fancy mid-tier watches in my opinion.


----------



## WatchEater666

Those Jacob’s trade closer to 10k to 12k btw.


----------



## ar7iste

WatchEater666 said:


> Those Jacob’s trade closer to 10k to 12k btw.


Interesting, I’m curious to see where please since I have some interest in this model.


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## WatchEater666

ar7iste said:


> Interesting, I’m curious to see where please since I have some interest in this model.


moda group on fb


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## GrouchoM

ar7iste said:


> Interesting, I’m curious to see where please since I have some interest in this model.


I was about to post a link to this on your request on the other thread.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk


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## blakestarhtown

ar7iste said:


> A brand with a shady owner, questionable taste, but that doesn’t lack creativity and bold designs.
> Jacob & Co. is intriguing as they do have interesting movements and case constructions on some of their models. The Epic X Chrono is their sportier and maybe least outrageous piece. I actually quite like the work on the dial, the concepto movement and the internal rotating bezel. It is also 200m water resistant with no date, which makes it a good option for people who will actually use it as a sports watch.
> Here we can find it for roughly half of its retail price, when they usually are found around $15k to $17k.
> 
> Jacob & Co. Epic X Chrono for $13,250 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24
> 
> 
> View attachment 16160204


Does it come with some coke? I'm asking for a friend.


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## Noalio

Noalio said:


> This Tourbillon by Parmigiani Fleurier was sold at Christies recently for "only 26k usd", a nice price in my opinion considering the finishing
> 
> 6 interiors angles, a impressive case and a spectacular tourbillon bridge


Now there is the same model in platinum at 85k GBP at ACM, not really a bargain anymore








Toric Tourbillon | Platinum


Introduced in 2000, this Parmigiani Fleurier Toric Tourbillon makes use of the historic Girard-Perregaux Three Bridges 9900 movement and brings its own unusual and distinctive touch to this open-worked movement. Available now at A Collected Man London.




www.acollectedman.com




Take a look at the third picture, the tourbillon bridge is exceptional, in my opinion much more impressive than any Tourbillon currently produced by AL&S or PP, it looks like something Derek Pratt would have made


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## DaleEArnold

Less than 200 made back in the Late 70's...It's unusual....with a Manual wind mvt...


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## dbostedo

Been looking at these... precious metal rattrapante chronograph with foudroyante... under $11K on leather...















__





Girard Perregaux Ferrari Foudroyante 9020 | Ref. 9020 Watches on Chrono24


Find low prices for 6 Girard Perregaux ref. 9020 watches on Chrono24. Compare deals and buy a ref. 9020 watch.




www.chrono24.com


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## ChetBaker

Cool watch. been looking at these as well but the modified ETA is keeping me from jumping on one.


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## christianj

ar7iste said:


> Another Arnold & Son, those are pretty reliably under $6k and offer tremendous value in my opinion for the movement finishing you get.
> 
> Arnold & Son HMS1 Anthracite 40mm for $5,200 for sale from a Trusted Seller on Chrono24


Inflation! Now showing at $6500.


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## apermanand

__





Chronoswiss Régulateur | Chrono24.com


Chronoswiss Régulateur on Chrono24.com. New offers daily. In stock now. Save favorite watches & buy your dream watch.




www.chrono24.com





Hard to argue with this... or you could just have another standard steel sports watch!


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## SISL

How good are Rolex Cellini watches? They seem to be available for very decent prices...


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## WTSP

I just watched a number of Jean-Mairet Gillman watches with Frederic Piguet 1150 movement sell for less than $1.5k on eBay. The Grande Date models are really nice, less so the world timers. That price is insanely low due to a lack of awareness, like buying a Blancpain for pennies on the dollar. I bid but got sniped. Probably for the best.


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## alessandro132

GP 1966 small seconds in 18K WG are going for ~$10K USD on Chrono24, seems to be a bargain.

Precious metal, grand feu enamel dial and lovely hand painted breguet numerals - what’s not to love!


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## Noalio

A tourbillon by Ulysse Nardin around $16k





Ulysse Nardin Marine Tourbillon 1283-181/E0 | Chrono24.ch


Entdecken Sie Ulysse Nardin 1283-181/E0 auf Chrono24.ch. Viele Inserate aus der Schweiz ✓ Über 475.000 Inserate weltweit ✓




www.chrono24.ch


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## ar7iste

Noalio said:


> A tourbillon by Ulysse Nardin around $16k
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ulysse Nardin Marine Tourbillon 1283-181/E0 | Chrono24.ch
> 
> 
> Entdecken Sie Ulysse Nardin 1283-181/E0 auf Chrono24.ch. Viele Inserate aus der Schweiz ✓ Über 475.000 Inserate weltweit ✓
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.ch


I have made a deal with myself that if this model or the blue version are ever to be found just below $13k I would jump the gun. Been on the watch ever since.


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## francorx

looking at this thread is not going to be good for my wallet


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## ar7iste

Here we are, with the relaunch of HYT, some of the earlier models are now being sold well under $20k.
This is the lowest priced HYT I have seen so far, and since the brand is alive again, probably a good time to buy since servicing it is now possible if needed.

Unworn H0, in what I think is the best color for the brand, at $13k, that's quite a bargain.






HYT Manual Wind Men's Watch H0 Black Stainless H00826 | Ref. H00826 Watches on Chrono24


Find low prices for 4 HYT ref. H00826 watches on Chrono24. Compare deals and buy a ref. H00826 watch.




www.chrono24.com


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## Toolwatchmd

ar7iste said:


> Here we are, with the relaunch of HYT, some of the earlier models are now being sold well under $20k.
> This is the lowest priced HYT I have seen so far, and since the brand is alive again, probably a good time to buy since servicing it is now possible if needed.
> 
> Unworn H0, in what I think is the best color for the brand, at $13k, that's quite a bargain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HYT Manual Wind Men's Watch H0 Black Stainless H00826 | Ref. H00826 Watches on Chrono24
> 
> 
> Find low prices for 4 HYT ref. H00826 watches on Chrono24. Compare deals and buy a ref. H00826 watch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.com








HYT H0 Black Stainless Steel Manual Wind Men's Watch H00826 | ShopWorn


Each HYT watch is an incredible piece of engineering featuring a unique liqu...




www.shopworn.com





Here’s another one for a hair under $13k. I’m hoping someone else snatches it up to remove the temptation.


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## Toolwatchmd

Chopard 161874 L.U.C Regulator GMT Silver Dial (41079) | European Watch Co.


Buy or sell the Chopard L.U.C Regulator GMT Silver Dial Ref. No. 161874 and other authentic watches at the European Watch Company today.




www.europeanwatch.com





Chopard LUC watches are some of the best hidden gems out there. The above is a Regulator GMT with a power reserve (8 day) indicator on the dial in an 18k gold case for under $15k.


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## Jon A Hernandez

apudabam said:


> I'll play-
> 
> One of the best bargains possible for a packed timepiece - although I really am no fan of the brand- RRP is $55,000 USD - available for as cheap as $10-15,000 USD brand new (chrono24).
> 
> Ulysse Nardin GMT dual time sonata has 5 amazing complications for ~ $10,000.
> 
> View attachment 15341655
> 
> (Picture from Internet)
> 
> It has a GMT, big date, second time zone, 24 hour alarm, timer countdown, as well as cathedral gongs - and it's beautiful to boot too. Not a UN fan but they have some Stellar pieces.





apudabam said:


> I'll play-
> 
> One of the best bargains possible for a packed timepiece - although I really am no fan of the brand- RRP is $55,000 USD - available for as cheap as $10-15,000 USD brand new (chrono24).
> 
> Ulysse Nardin GMT dual time sonata has 5 amazing complications for ~ $10,000.
> 
> View attachment 15341655
> 
> (Picture from Internet)
> 
> It has a GMT, big date, second time zone, 24 hour alarm, timer countdown, as well as cathedral gongs - and it's beautiful to boot too. Not a UN fan but they have some Stellar pieces.


Beautiful piece!


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## WatchEater666

Bump


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## Noalio

JAEGER-LECOULTRE. A RARE AND ELEGANT 18K PINK GOLD LIMITED EDITION MINUTE REPEATING WRISTWATCH WITH CERTIFICATE AND BOX


SIGNED JAEGER-LECOULTRE, REVERSO RÉPÉTITION MINUTES MODEL, REF. 270.2.73, NO. 479⁄500, CIRCA 2001




www.christies.com




A very nice little Reverso minute repeater by JLC, ideal if you like this complication and you have a small wrist, only 26*42mm, the estimate (12,000-18,000) seems low, I think it should easily make +20k


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## Toolwatchmd

Noalio said:


> JAEGER-LECOULTRE. A RARE AND ELEGANT 18K PINK GOLD LIMITED EDITION MINUTE REPEATING WRISTWATCH WITH CERTIFICATE AND BOX
> 
> 
> SIGNED JAEGER-LECOULTRE, REVERSO RÉPÉTITION MINUTES MODEL, REF. 270.2.73, NO. 479⁄500, CIRCA 2001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.christies.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very nice little Reverso minute repeater by JLC, ideal if you like this complication and you have a small wrist, only 26*42mm, the estimate (12,000-18,000) seems low, I think it should easily make +20k


I think Reversos look better when they are a little small.


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## mykii

Noalio said:


> JAEGER-LECOULTRE. A RARE AND ELEGANT 18K PINK GOLD LIMITED EDITION MINUTE REPEATING WRISTWATCH WITH CERTIFICATE AND BOX
> 
> 
> SIGNED JAEGER-LECOULTRE, REVERSO RÉPÉTITION MINUTES MODEL, REF. 270.2.73, NO. 479⁄500, CIRCA 2001
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.christies.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A very nice little Reverso minute repeater by JLC, ideal if you like this complication and you have a small wrist, only 26*42mm, the estimate (12,000-18,000) seems low, I think it should easily make +20k


Auction estimates are nearly always under consensus guides for price, and almost always sell over them. It's just a marketing tool to get people watching, and registering with, the high-end auctioneers. Also, don't forget the hammer fee/price!


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