# Is a trench watch still a trench watch if....



## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

I am currently having this watch being worked on. Yes I know this is just a case....honest I have the movement but it is with my watchmaker lol. The movement is an Illinois Grade 35 dating to 1911. So the watch is pre-war. It is the original movement based on the screw nicks in the case and the over all condition. The watch still has the original leather strap and sterling buckle.

So the question is...would it still be a trench watch being that it was made in 1911???? It also is not a mid size either. Wristlet?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi.
a 'Trench Watch' is a very misused term.
Very few if any so called 'Trench Watches' ever saw an angry German or a 'trench'

So watches made around WWI (1914-1918) can be termed a trench watch.
Earlier pieces with radium dials can be termed 'trench watches'

That said we see very few wristwatches in that style of case made in 1911.
Do NOT confuse a 1911 movement as a wristwatch made in 1911

Sincerely
'
Adam


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

Finally a response!!! YAAAYYY!!!! lol

I can see the movement sitting for a up to 5 years before being put into a watch. This happens on a regular basis but without information to date a case by a case number we usually take the movement serial dating as the one closest to the time it was made and sold. The movement may be a 1911 so I am willing to go by a range up to 5 years that it could have sit before being used. The movement is pre-war and being that WW1 started in 1914 there is a 3 year, or close to, gap before it started and the watch was made. If we want to get it to a finer point, the watch was made in 1911 and being that it is an American company that made it then the outside range would put it at 1916. The US did not enter the war until 1917 means that the watch is not a WW1 "trench watch" unless there is some provenance that showed it was owned and used by a WW1 solider in the war in know trench war zone. 

The actual question is if the collector world views all watches of this era and type that were a mens solid lug would fall into this general term. I could have been clearer I guess.

I so agree that "Trench Watch" is an abused term. Kind of like Diver is applied to any watch with a particular bezel even if the watch is not even close to being water resistant. I would be happy with the term early wrist watch for all dating before 1920 and trench being a sub category for those that either saw or were designed for military action. But that is me and I am curious as to how others in the collecting world view it.

FYI...I do like our discussions HOROLOGIST007


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

As I understand it, a true "trench watch" is a small pocketwatch that was field-modified by or for soldiers fighting in the trenches of wwII...but these days, the term is used rather more broadly as a general "style" of watch that basically looks like a pocket watch with wire lugs soldered on to it. That said, I wouldn't normally consider a cushion case to be a trench watch of any type.


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

AbslomRob said:


> As I understand it, a true "trench watch" is a small pocketwatch that was field-modified by or for soldiers fighting in the trenches of wwII...but these days, the term is used rather more broadly as a general "style" of watch that basically looks like a pocket watch with wire lugs soldered on to it. That said, I wouldn't normally consider a cushion case to be a trench watch of any type.


So what about the "Admiral Benson"? It is a cushion case watch named for a military figure with radium hands and dial. It was produced during the time of WW1 and could have been used in the war.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> As I understand it, a true "trench watch" is a small pocketwatch that was field-modified by or for soldiers fighting in the trenches of wwII...but these days, the term is used rather more broadly as a general "style" of watch that basically looks like a pocket watch with wire lugs soldered on to it. That said, I wouldn't normally consider a cushion case to be a trench watch of any type.


NOTHING to do with "pocket watch"

Certainly we see wristlets (pocket watch adapters) we also see MANY wristwatches that were in the Great War!!

I can post over 1 dozen original photographs that I own of WWI trench wristwatches.
I personally own a wristwatch with WWI Trench provinance


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

I can see how a modified watch that was done during the war to make it functional in those times can be called a trench watch. It goes along with the trench art where shells and casings were turned into a vase or ash tray. But if we followed that thinking the only trench watches would be ones that were changed in the field but that would disqualify all the watches that were bought by and sold to the solders that did see action in the war.


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

I guess the question would be, what is the earliest known usage of the term "trench watch"? I've always viewed "trench watch" as specific sub-category of military watch. It certainly has nothing to do with lume, as that was used extensively on pocket watches of the era as well.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> I guess the question would be, what is the earliest known usage of the term "trench watch"? I've always viewed "trench watch" as specific sub-category of military watch. It certainly has nothing to do with lume, as that was used extensively on pocket watches of the era as well.


I suspect, indeed hope this turns into a great discussion thread.
Foe certain "Trench Watch" is a modern term.
No one in 1914 - 1920 said "Lets give our Sergeant a present, how a bout a Trench Watch"

Also, I have military specs from 1913 on wristwatches.

Let me dig it all out and respond .

A


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

Gas on the fire......

1917 Elgin Trench Watch, Fahys "ARMORED" Integrated Shrapnel Guard, 24hr Dial | TimeKeeperForum.com

I could just "borrow" the pictures but they may be a member here. This particular case is a Fahys Sterling as well.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

thoth said:


> Gas on the fire......
> 
> 1917 Elgin Trench Watch, Fahys "ARMORED" Integrated Shrapnel Guard, 24hr Dial | TimeKeeperForum.com
> 
> I could just "barrow" the pictures but they may be a member here. This particular case is a Fhays Sterling as well.


Yes he is a member here.
BUT
What is your point to that post?


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I suspect, indeed hope this turns into a great discussion thread.
> Foe certain "Trench Watch" is a modern term.
> No one in 1914 - 1920 said "Lets give our Sergeant a present, how a bout a Trench Watch"
> 
> ...


From what I understand the term wristlet was used until the 30's. So they would have said...."Lets get Sargent a wristlet"

Hard to sound tough with a word like wristlet.


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Yes he is a member here.
> BUT
> What is your point to that post?


There were watches made by the same company marketed to military use that were cushion shaped. This shows that during the time watches were being produced for service and not just being modified in the field. The 2nd point would be that the similarity to the case of the watch I have except not having the grille. So being that the one I have does not have the grille but of the same or similar design make it a potential "Trench Watch"?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

thoth said:


> From what I understand the term wristlet was used until the 30's. So they would have said...."Lets get Sargent a wristlet"
> 
> Hard to sound tough with a word like wristlet.


I do NOT think so.
You have evidence to that?
And what Sergeant was in the trenches or indeed any war in 1930.

By 1930 the wristwatch was well established and indeed overtaken pocket watches.
Are you dissing me?


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> I do NOT think so.
> You have evidence to that?
> And what Sergeant was in the trenches or indeed any war in 1930.
> 
> ...


No but you are looking for the start of the term "Trench watch" and if the term "wristlet" was in use at the time but the term wrist watch was not....then you would have to assume that the term wristlet would have been used in the discussion and not wrist watch. If the term "Trench Watch" was not used until well after the war...no one would have called it that at the time either.

Is the term "Trench Watch" a term coined by the collecting world as a way of putting a label on a type/style/era of wrist watches?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

thoth said:


> No but you are looking for the start of the term "Trench watch" and if the term "wristlet" was in use at the time but the term wrist watch was not....then you would have to assume that the term wristlet would have been used in the discussion and not wrist watch. If the term "Trench Watch" was not used until well after the war...no one would have called it that at the time either.
> 
> Is the term "Trench Watch" a term coined by the collecting world as a way of putting a label on a type/style/era of wrist watches?


Sorry, you lost me

Yes the 'term' trench watch is modern. I doubt very much if it was used in 1914 or 1919 or even 1945.

It was a 'wristwatch' either as a wristlet (pocket watch adapter) or a wristwatch as we know today.
A wristlet was a 1890 to 1918 item!

Night


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Sorry, you lost me
> 
> Yes the 'term' trench watch is modern. I doubt very much if it was used in 1914 or 1919 or even 1945.
> 
> ...


Wristwatch - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

First known use of the term 1896 so i was wrong in the assumption that the term was not in use until the 30's


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

thoth said:


> Wristwatch - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
> 
> First known use of the term 1896 so i was wrong in the assumption that the term was not in use until the 30's


well Breguet made a wristwatch in 1810 and Patek Philippe in 1868? Albeit these were both ladies watches!

But for certain it was 'wristlet' in early 1890 to 1900
The first known advert for a 'wristwatch' i.e. NOT leather pocket adapter is 1904 by Omega.
I have a copy of the advert from 1906 and the watch from 1908.
I have more general adverts from 1910.

I consider adverts wristwatch valid when they include either a Mans watch or both, as i have many ladies wristwatch adverts from 1903/1908

Hope that helps


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> That said, I wouldn't normally consider a cushion case to be a trench watch of any type.


I have many military adverts where they show 'cushion' shaped watches as WWI (Trench Watches)
The Pershing Black Jack watch by Elgin is a HUGE example!


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

I think you may be getting ahead of the definition. Are you suggesting that "Trench Watch" refers broadly to any WW1 era military style wristwatch? My understanding of the term is that it originally was used to described the type of watches used by the soldiers in the actual trenches; these, for the most part, were small ladies pocket watches that were adapted to take a strap in a conscious imitation of the "wristlets" that were increasingly being worn by the officers.


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> well Breguet made a wristwatch in 1810 and Patek Philippe in 1868? Albeit these were both ladies watches!
> 
> But for certain it was 'wristlet' in early 1890 to 1900
> The first known advert for a 'wristwatch' i.e. NOT leather pocket adapter is 1904 by Omega.
> ...


That is awesome! I will have to look for a pic of that if you have it posted here. That is why having there kinds of conversations with you are fun. I know the Webster's states an earlier year only because of some use of the term in something that could be obscure but an advertisement is more likely to use a term common in popular society.

Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk 2


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

AbslomRob said:


> I think you may be getting ahead of the definition. Are you suggesting that "Trench Watch" refers broadly to any WW1 era military style wristwatch? My understanding of the term is that it originally was used to described the type of watches used by the soldiers in the actual trenches; these, for the most part, were small ladies pocket watches that were adapted to take a strap in a conscious imitation of the "wristlets" that were increasingly being worn by the officers.


I do think men's wrist watches were far more common then the modified ladies watches. I know I saw a picture on here within the last week that showed a store front with the window filled at least 2 feet thick for "army" watches. The time looks like the 1920's. I will have to look for it when I have a chance.

You have only 3 styles of pocket watch in general. Hunting, open face, and "side winder". Side winders are, in my years of collecting, very scarce in a ladies pendant watch. This leaves open face and hunting as the two primary options. The hunting had a cover and wind at 3. So that would be the common configuration if it was mainly converted ladies pendant watches. The only way to have an open face watch with 12 at 12 would be to have the crown between the wire lugs. Or whatever lugs.

I do think a percentage of watches were converted to be used as a wrist watch. But I think that percentage is the lower of what watches were used in the war. In terms though, I think that they would obviously be considered very worthy of the term "trench watch" especially when they were converted in the trench or have an obvious military history. But other watches were used that deserve the same term.

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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

In my experience the name 'Trench Watch', nowadays, is applied to any early watch with wire lugs.

In the U.K, at least, the majority of WW1 watches were true wristwatches and not wristlets, although many wristlets
would also have saw the trenches. 

If a wire lugged wristwatch was produced/intended for military service (usually through 'private purchase), then then it would
have a particular design/style to the dial.
It would have large numbers and skeleton hands which were illuminated with Radium compounds and have been produced/sold during the WW1 period...
these are the wristwatches that the 'purists' should term a trenchwatch i.m.o.


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> I think you may be getting ahead of the definition. Are you suggesting that "Trench Watch" refers broadly to any WW1 era military style wristwatch? My understanding of the term is that it originally was used to described the type of watches used by the soldiers in the actual trenches; these, for the most part, were small ladies pocket watches that were adapted to take a strap in a conscious imitation of the "wristlets" that were increasingly being worn by the officers.


Most interesting discussion and points raised.
Actually I doubt any one has or could 'state exactly' what a trench watch is.

I have many original photographs dated from 1914 to 1918 showing various nations soldiers wearing a watch on their wrist.
The earlier photographs and usually Russian officers have wristlets, as do most German officers.
The British and ALWAYS my American examples always are wearing wristwatches with lugs.

I have never considered a wristlet as a 'trench watch' but have many example of both round AND cushion shaped pieces (yes cushion shaped with shrapnel guards) that I do term 'trench watches.

*Here is my latest 'wristlet' photograph - German Dated 1918 - ZITTAU. Surely NOT a ladies pocket watch!!*




*WWI - Russian Officer - wristwatch with lugs!*


*WWI - German Soldier dated 1917. Wristwatch with lugs'*


*Cushion Shaped 'trench watch' with Shrapnel Guard - I own this from 1917*


*French WWI Artillery Officer checking his wristwatch with lugs*



*WWI Military Advert 1916 - wristwatch with lugs*


*American Waltham WWI wristwatch with advert. I have this watch and provenance it was worn in the trenches in France.*


*Finally my Patria WWI 'cushion' shaped with integral shrapnel guard wristwatch with original advert - for soldiers*




Sincerely
Adam


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

It's probably worth pointing out that at the turn of the century, there was really no such thing as a "Wrist Watch Movement". 90% of all movements were, by design, pocket watch movements in either a open-face (Lepine) or hunter orientation (that which simply describing the location of the stem relative to the sub-second dial). "Wrist watches" were simply a function of casing (and to a lesser degree dial design). From an American standpoint especially, that distinction was somewhat irrelevant to the movement makers, as they didn't sell cases in the first place. Case makers and Swiss companies attempted to capitalize on the new and increasing demand for "wrist watches" by designing new case styles (which accepted the same movements as their pocket watch cases). Indeed, this was part of what drove the direction of Rolex in their early days.


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## thoth (Aug 15, 2009)

Just a fun note here.... wristwatch is in the dictionary but there is no definition of trench watch. 

Sent from my LG-P925 using Tapatalk 2


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

I went through my old Eatons catalogs; before the war (1913), the only "wrist watch" listed was a ladies model, but the 1915 catalog had a "military wrist watch" for men. By 1917, there was a full page of wrist watches; all the men's watches featured luminous dials and included "Military dial guards" (which they also sold separately for 15 cents). The catalogs only ever referred to these watches as either just watches, or "Wrist Watches" (if they had a thick leather strap); ladies watches were referred to as either watches, wristwatches (with the leather straps) or bracelet watches (if they had metal bracelets). After the war (1920 catalog) is the first one that shows "cushion" watches (they had both a wrist watch and a cushion shaped pocket watch); luminous dials were very common, with no mention anywhere of "military" (and no dial guards anywhere).


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I always wondered about the use of the term "shrapnel guard" on these watches. I am sure that if there was really shrapnel flying about, they ought to worry more about the wearer than the watch! :roll: Which is not to suggest that these contraptions were useless - on the contrary, in the old days when watches had glass crystals and life in the trenches was rough, these guards probably saved many a watch from the odd bump. Just not from shrapnel.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Well, shrapnel is any flying fragment of ordnance - some are deadly and many more will just scratch you (or break the crystal of the watch).


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> I went through my old Eatons catalogs; before the war (1913), the only "wrist watch" listed was a ladies model, but the 1915 catalog had a "military wrist watch" for men. By 1917, there was a full page of wrist watches; all the men's watches featured luminous dials and included "Military dial guards" (which they also sold separately for 15 cents). The catalogs only ever referred to these watches as either just watches, or "Wrist Watches" (if they had a thick leather strap); ladies watches were referred to as either watches, wristwatches (with the leather straps) or bracelet watches (if they had metal bracelets). After the war (1920 catalog) is the first one that shows "cushion" watches (they had both a wrist watch and a cushion shaped pocket watch); luminous dials were very common, with no mention anywhere of "military" (and no dial guards anywhere).


Exactly as I would have predicted, and exactly as my European advert experience shows. Except many of European adverts showed shrapnel guards.
Indeed I suspect 'trench watch' is a modern probably Ebay colloquialism?

By the way, does your adverts say 'wrist watch' or wristwatch?


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hartmut Richter said:


> I always wondered about the use of the term "shrapnel guard" on these watches. I am sure that if there was really shrapnel flying about, they ought to worry more about the wearer than the watch! :roll: Which is not to suggest that these contraptions were useless - on the contrary, in the old days when watches had glass crystals and life in the trenches was rough, these guards probably saved many a watch from the odd bump. Just not from shrapnel.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Well I doubt that the guard would protect one against a piece of ultra hot and sharp flying shrapnel, no, these were meant to protect the glass from bumps and scrapes.
Remember that people were used to protected (by a pocket) pocket watches
AND
Few if any soldiers had a wristwatch, these were reserved for officers, who could afford them and/or for 'zero hour'

A


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## AbslomRob (Jun 13, 2009)

Wrist Watch; and that's the term they use up into the 50's and 60's. The earliest one I have (1913) is described as a "wristlet watch", but they only show a ladies version:








The full-page spread (with all the military options) was the 1917 catalog (and it has your big sweep-second watch too!):








Interestingly enough, after the war, wrist watches went back to being scarce; the 1920 catalog only shows a couple. But the Eatons catalog was a fairly conservative publication; they only included stuff that they thought would be consistantly desired in sufficient quantities for them to pre-order from their suppliers.


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## new2oltime (Feb 20, 2011)

I'm a neo-vintage lurker. This is a great thread, interesting, loaded w/ pertinent, factual info and very well researched too. I also appreciate the very civil and clever debates held herein as well.
*Sincerely I thank you all for a great read! *............... _now I need an "armor cased watch"_ with trench roots just to be safe *:}*


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## HOROLOGIST007 (Apr 27, 2013)

AbslomRob said:


> Wrist Watch; and that's the term they use up into the 50's and 60's. The earliest one I have (1913) is described as a "wristlet watch", but they only show a ladies version:
> View attachment 1438490
> 
> 
> ...


Cool stuff
I wonder why they termed it a 'wristlet'
I also always wondered why 'wristwatch' has become one word, while pocket watch is two!!
Notice the guard for "military watches" and the nurses sweep seconds

Thanks for posting those adverts


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