# Citizen Chronomaster vs Grand Seiko HAQs?



## Philipnwh

I know this is probably a topic that has been discussed to death in these forums, but many questions still linger in my mind after having trawled through the various related topics in these forums.

Based on the aforesaid trawling, it appears, generally speaking, that there is a greater following for Grand Seiko HAQs in these forums. This is clearly for good reason - the GS Quartz watches have magnificent finishing on the case, dial, hour markers and of course the splendid dauphine hour and minute hands. However (as has been repeatedly mentioned in various other topics), the Grand Seiko that use the 9F caliber quartz movements don't have independently adjustable hour hands, nor do they have perpetual calendars. (Also, perhaps less pertinently, the date change whilst immediate at 1/2000th of a second does not occur exactly at midnight).

On the other hand, the Citizen Chronomasters (which I understand use either the A010 or A610 caliber movements) have similar accuracy (ranging from +/-5 to 10 seconds per year), but include independently adjustable hour hands, perpetual calendars and have immediate date changes exactly at midnight. Despite these "technical" advantages, the buzz and excitement in these forums over the Grand Seiko HAQs far exceeds the Citizen HAQs.

Could anyone enlighten me as to the reason behind this disparity? Are the Grand Seikos more popular because of the mythical 50-year servicing interval? Or could it be because of the finishing on the watch itself? On this latter point, I am hard pressed to provide any opinion at all, because my visual interest in these watches have been limited to poring over online photos and Youtube videos - could anyone who has closely observed, or owns, both Citizen and Grand Seikos HAQs please enlighten me as to the differences and finesses in the watches' finishing and design? This is particularly interesting to me, because some of the Citizen Chronomasters do appear to have gorgeous designs. For example, the Citizen AQ4020 (I've attached a photo I found on google) has a dial made of Japanese Tosa-Washi paper. I personally feel that this is a brilliant design, because a paper dial allows for light to enter the solar cells in the Citizen (being an Eco Drive watch) yet still adds visual flair and is uniquely Japanese. Despite this, there is very little discussion about the watch and, even if there has been discussion of the watch, no one has actually posted a review or mentioned that they own the watch. Granted, the Citizen AQ4020 is very new, but all the new Grand Seikos are already widely discussed in these forums.

I guess at the end of the day, what I really want to know is why the Grand Seiko HAQs appear to be more popular than the Citizen HAQs? I am very much inclined towards getting a Grand Seiko HAQ at some point, but the fact that it doesn't have an independently adjustable hour hand and perpetual calendar makes me wonder why Citizen Chronomasters aren't more popular (and wonder if I should get a Citizen like the AQ4020 instead).


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## Tom-HK

This topic has, indeed, been somewhat covered before (including in a recent thread), but I will chip in again with my opinion.

I think the old A660-powered 'Chronomaster' Citizens were possibly better made than the first generation of A010 Eco-drive 'The Citizen' models and I think that, at one time, amongst the regular HAQ crowd on this forum, the Chronomaster reigned supreme. It was more for the discerning, 'in-the-know' HAQ enthusiast, whereas GS had, perhaps, picked up some HAQ attention from publicity surrounding its mechanical range.

When the A010 came out, it's deep-set features and high hands cast long shadows over the dial and exacerbated the parallax problem, whilst the relatively small dial and power reserve contributed to a fairly cramped look. At least, so it appeared side-by-side with a GS. I had both and wore one on each wrist for nearly a year, but with an SBGV009 on one wrist I just couldn't love the Citizen. Of course I was very aware of the GS's shortcomings, as you have already listed. Technologically it seemed inferior and I preferred the Citizen in that regard. At least until it came time for regulation. Whilst the GS could be regulated easily by turning the regulator wheel one notch anticlockwise, the Citizen had to go back to Japan. I was without it for six months and when it came back it was still off-spec.

For this reason above all others, I sold the Citizen. Regardless of all the other assorted differences, I know I can trim my GS to spec or better. I can't say the same for the Citizen.

Now, I understand there is a newer generation of Eco-drive Citizen bearing the old 'Chronomaster' label. Not only do these eschew the power reserve indicator but by some accounts they are also better finished, akin to the old Chronomaster standard. Possibly with better looks and finish I might consider one of the newer breed of Citizen, but after the headaches I had going back and forth with the Citizen Japan Service Centre, I still think I will remain in the GS camp for now.


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## zuckermania

That's a great answer Tom. The AQ4020 is in serious contention for my next watch. I love texture dials and the GS 9F range doesn't have all that many. Maybe they aren't perfect to cross shop but when I compare this to say the GS SBGX269 it's a challenge. Both are titanium, both have a neat texture (although I prefer the washi paper), both are WR 100m, both are thermocompensated, etc.

I have absolutely no evidence for this but it just SEEMS like the GS is more of a lifetime watch, whereas the Citizen is a 20 year watch. Three year battery changes aren't spectacular though, 10 SPY performance is negated by hacking the watch during DST change, maybe the water resistance gets compromised during a battery change... who knows. I'd hate to make the choice but gun to my head I'd pick the GS.


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## horolicious

One word TITANIUM... Seiko and Citizen failed to describe what they do, if the titanium case has to be refinished.... Their silence means they will replace the case at cost.... 
I purchased a citizen HAQ in steel and couldn't be more happier. Citizen also offers sleep mode and self calibration. Grand Seiko was genius about marketing and slow growth approach and that is why people are so gaga over GS. No matter what you choose anyone including self proclaimed horology buffs will think you are an idiot for spending huge money on quartz... Is your self esteem strong enough?

More pics on the


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## gangrel

The current movements used by Citizen are the A010 and A060. The latter does not have the PR. There might still be some A660-based models in the catalog, but not many; it is NOT Eco Drive. 

The AQ4000's are all A060; the AQ1000's are all A010.

Grand Seiko is simply better known, I think, and Seiko across the board has more recognition as a quality brand than Citizen.


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## gangrel

BTW, there are 2 points I really wish both companies would address:

1. Almost ALL of these are on bracelet...not strap. I don't like bracelets, and I don't like the thought of just tossing aside that part of the cost. (Which is not small.)

2. Only a few models really interest me visually. Most have, IMO, severe flaws. My first choice would probably be the AQ4020-54Y; love the dial...but why, why, why do white-metal hands and indices on a white dial????? How about blued steel or titanium, at least for the hands? Seiko might say "no" because they don't want to execute the zaratsu polishing, I suppose, but that strikes me as sheer obstinacy.

Both companies have shown they can do more interesting executions, but the implementations of their best quartz movements are...dull.


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## GMF

I own both a GS 9F and a The Citizen A010, and to my untrained eye, the fit and finish on The Citizen is every bit as good as on my GS. I love them both, but when it comes to the movements, I think Citizen has eclipsed the 9F with their A010 and A060 movements--not only from a functional standpoint with the perpetual calendar and individual set for the hour hand, but in aesthetics as well. And look at the jewel count: 30 jewels would be a high jewel count for a top drawer, three-hand mechanical movement. But in a three-hand quartz movement? Unheard of. The 9F with "just" nine jewels sounds anemic in comparison.

Here is a photo of the A010 movement that I found on the web:


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## Tom-HK

GMF said:


> I own both a GS 9F and a The Citizen A010, and to my untrained eye, the fit and finish on The Citizen is every bit as good as on my GS. I love them both, but when it comes to the movements, I think Citizen has eclipsed the 9F with their A010 and A060 movements--not only from a functional standpoint with the perpetual calendar and individual set for the hour hand, but in aesthetics as well. And look at the jewel count: 30 jewels would be a high jewel count for a top drawer, three-hand mechanical movement. But in a three-hand quartz movement? Unheard of. The 9F with "just" nine jewels sounds anemic in comparison.
> 
> Here is a photo of the A010 movement that I found on the web:


Ah! It's nice to see my old watch again. I also posted this photo to the 'notable movements' thread, in the stickies.

The Citizen, with its perpetual calendar and independently adjustable hour hand needs more jewels due to the greater complexity of tasks that it has to achieve, whilst the GS has a very simply drive train. That being said, the sheer number of jewels alone does not indicate 'quality' and I suspect either brand could have settled on a different design with a different number of jewels and yet achieved similar final performance results. Jewels are cheap and functional. I'm not sure that their presence carries the same sense of importance as it used to when jewels were natural and expensive. At least, it may still have some resonance in the WIS community in general, but mostly, I think, in the realms of mechanical watches. The jewel count seldom crops up in reviews or analyses of GS or Citizen HAQ watches.

And let's not forget that the GS has some 'tech' under the bonnet, too, including a second hand alignment mechanism which I found to be better than the Citizen equivalent. Whilst wearing one watch on each wrist, oflver the course of a year, the second hand of the Citizen became misaligned after a bumpy cycle ride to work. The Citizen Service Centre examined it and refused to fix it because it was 'within tolerance'. I simply never had this issue with my GS and its lowly 9-jewel movement.


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## horolicious

Tom-HK said:


> Ah! It's nice to see my old watch again. I also posted this photo to the 'notable movements' thread, in the stickies.
> 
> The Citizen, with its perpetual calendar and independently adjustable hour hand needs more jewels due to the greater complexity of tasks that it has to achieve, whilst the GS has a very simply drive train. That being said, the sheer number of jewels alone does not indicate 'quality' and I suspect either brand could have settled on a different design with a different number of jewels and yet achieved similar final performance results. Jewels are cheap and functional. I'm not sure that their presence carries the same sense of importance as it used to when jewels were natural and expensive. At least, it may still have some resonance in the WIS community in general, but mostly, I think, in the realms of mechanical watches. The jewel count seldom crops up in reviews or analyses of GS or Citizen HAQ watches.
> 
> And let's not forget that the GS has some 'tech' under the bonnet, too, including a second hand alignment mechanism which I found to be better than the Citizen equivalent. Whilet wearing one watch on each wrist, oflver the course of a year, the second hand of the Citizen became misaligned after a bumpy cycle ride to work. The Citizen Service Centre examined it and refused to fix it because it was 'within tolerance'. I simply never had this issue with my GS and its lowly 9-jewel movement.


Citizen offers on the wrist date, and hands alignment. All you have to have is a toothpick near by

More pics on the


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## ravisuricata

I have a couple of GS quartz pieces (SBGX053 and SBGX093) and love them. In particular, the 53 fits my smaller wrist like a glove and it is my favorite watch, quartz or otherwise. I don't think that GS bracelets get enough praise for how comfortable they are. Much more pleasurable to wear than the bracelet on my Submariner 14060M, which tends to get a lot of press coverage for fit and finish.

I'm in NYC right now and I went to the Citizen boutique yesterday to see and wear the AQ4020. The Citizen is very nice. If I had it in my collection, I would be quite pleased. But after seeing it in the metal, I definitely don't regret NOT having it. I really liked the dial but the piece just didn't feel right on my wrist.

Now, I wish that the GS quartz had an hour hand that could be adjusted independently. I miss that feature twice a year with DST and when I travel. So I've added a 8F56 to my collection for traveling. I also kind of like the unique look of those older GS designs.

And the better (on paper) accuracy of the Citizen is a big draw for me, although I track my GS pieces closely (daily) and they perform better than advertised.

But for me, how a watch feels on the wrist is paramount. And although five minutes in a boutique isn't a comprehensive evaluation, it's far better than making a decision without wearing at all.

So I would suggest doing whatever you can to try before you buy. Expensive watches are a minefield for buyer's regret. I think that how the watch feels and looks on your wrist is as important as the technical specifications, once you enter into the realm of HAQ with either GS or Citizen.

Good luck!


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## jdmfetish

I did own the GS SBGX117 when it first came out, the 9F 200 Meter GS Air Diver. ( AFAIK 10 SPY ) 
I sold that, and I now own the GS SBGA029 200 Meter Air Diver, Spring Drive.
So fit and finish is very good.

That said

I also picked up a new Chronomaster .
































































Fit and Finish is top notch and their so close in terms finishing , its too close to call.

I need not label one or the other as best , I can appreciate both , and I am adding another 9F GS to my collection soon.

With 5 spy, independent hour hand, perpetual calendar , 10 year warranty, these are certainly benefits of the citizen.
As far as Titanium , GS now offers 9F in titanium , so this is not a raw material unique to citizen now. 
Whether or not the GS ti has a duratect I am not sure.

GS Ti AFAIK SBGV229, SBGV231, SBGV233


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## GlennO

gangrel said:


> Grand Seiko is simply better known, I think, and Seiko across the board has more recognition as a quality brand than Citizen.


Plus there are many more GS models to choose from with a wider variety of case and dial designs and colours. For those who are less particular about movement features they might be more likely to find something that they prefer visually.


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## Philipnwh

Thanks, all, for the very helpful responses.

@Tom-HK, wow, you must be really dedicated to the hobby to have worn a watch on each wrist for a year!

@jdmfetish, your photos of the Citizen AQ4020-54Y are stunning.

But at the end of the day, I'll heed the advice to physically look at the watches before making any decisions! It does appear that successful marketing plays a part in the popularity of the Grand Seiko HAQs.


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## NismoDan

The mention of the SBGV229, SBGV231, and SBGV233 are really interesting to me, as previously the only GS quartz in Ti that I knew of were the SBGX069 that I have and the white-dialed version SBGX067.
Note that those are the traditional 37mm, though with a textured dial and gold-toned hands/markers on the 069.

Here's a crap phone picture of my GS and 2 current Eco-Drive The Citizens while at the NYC flagship store:


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## jdmfetish

I have a new GS 5 SPY , 9F82 , SBGV019 HAQ in route to me now.

So I can report the this VS that thoughts I have when it arrives .


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## uncle6

ravisuricata said:


> I have a couple of GS quartz pieces (SBGX053 and SBGX093) and love them. In particular, the 53 fits my smaller wrist like a glove and it is my favorite watch, quartz or otherwise. I don't think that GS bracelets get enough praise for how comfortable they are. Much more pleasurable to wear than the bracelet on my Submariner 14060M, which tends to get a lot of press coverage for fit and finish.
> 
> I'm in NYC right now and I went to the Citizen boutique yesterday to see and wear the AQ4020. The Citizen is very nice. If I had it in my collection, I would be quite pleased. But after seeing it in the metal, I definitely don't regret NOT having it. I really liked the dial but the piece just didn't feel right on my wrist.
> 
> Now, I wish that the GS quartz had an hour hand that could be adjusted independently. I miss that feature twice a year with DST and when I travel. So I've added a 8F56 to my collection for traveling. I also kind of like the unique look of those older GS designs.
> 
> And the better (on paper) accuracy of the Citizen is a big draw for me, although I track my GS pieces closely (daily) and they perform better than advertised.
> 
> But for me, how a watch feels on the wrist is paramount. And although five minutes in a boutique isn't a comprehensive evaluation, it's far better than making a decision without wearing at all.
> 
> So I would suggest doing whatever you can to try before you buy. Expensive watches are a minefield for buyer's regret. I think that how the watch feels and looks on your wrist is as important as the technical specifications, once you enter into the realm of HAQ with either GS or Citizen.
> 
> Good luck!


Can you share which 8F56 model you have? I am also interested in having one but having a hard time to track them down.


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## woodville63

uncle6 said:


> Can you share which 8F56 model you have? I am also interested in having one but having a hard time to track them down.


Try Yahoo Japan. Use Chrome to auto-translate. I use FromJapan to bid/buy. Make sure you use Paypal or CC for cover.


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## uncle6

Thanks, never thought of Yahoo Japan as an option, tried Rakuten but didn't seem to find one.


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## woodville63

uncle6 said:


> Thanks, never thought of Yahoo Japan as an option, tried Rakuten but didn't seem to find one.


My pleasure, here's the searches for all of Citizen and Seiko HAQs (5/10/20s) based on information from our learned friends in this forum. Please shout out if I have missed any.


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## ronalddheld

Please send links to commercial sites and auctions via PM.


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## woodville63

ronalddheld said:


> Please send links to commercial sites and auctions via PM.


Ronald, could you please clarify as I see links to commercial sites in f9, for instance, 2017 VHP thread started by your good self? The links I provided were informative to new HAQ devotees who may not know about the range of JDMs available, and where/how to buy them. I don't benefit. If anything, I create competition for myself.;-) There's a sizeable minority of us who know about Yahoo Japan, where's the harm in letting others know?


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## ronalddheld

woodville63 said:


> Ronald, could you please clarify as I see links to commercial sites in f9, for instance, 2017 VHP thread started by your good self? The links I provided were informative to new HAQ devotees who may not know about the range of JDMs available, and where/how to buy them. I don't benefit. If anything, I create competition for myself.;-) There's a sizeable minority of us who know about Yahoo Japan, where's the harm in letting others know?


I may not have been as diligent at monitoring links in the past, and sometimes currently.


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## woodville63

ronalddheld said:


> I may not have been as diligent at monitoring links in the past, and sometimes currently.


Just like your OT: Citizen One thread? I think it's more to do with a lackadaisical approach to applying the rules. RHIP. BTW, I would appreciate you not being sardonic with me.


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## ravisuricata

Hi Uncle6,

I have an SBQJ015.

yep, they're hard to find these days. Mine is in pretty rough shape, but I like to think that it has character.


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## ravisuricata

Agreed. Yahoo Japan auctions are a great place for older JDM pieces. Especially when trying to assess what a reasonable price might be. I prefer it to EBay.

I also use TimePeaks. But it tends to have more contemporary pieces, imo.

good luck!


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## Philipnwh

jdmfetish said:


> I have a new GS 5 SPY , 9F82 , SBGV019 HAQ in route to me now.
> 
> So I can report the this VS that thoughts I have when it arrives .


I look forward to your comparison!


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## woodville63

ravisuricata said:


> I also use TimePeaks.


Looks interesting, will keep an eye on it.


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## jdmfetish

The GS SBGV019 HAQ 5 SPY just arrived .
These are only some quick pics of the two .























































What I can say at this time:
Pricing is about the same $2750.00 USD Each.
Dimensions are close , ( GS 38 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) & ( Chronomaster 37.5 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) .
Accuracy both 5 SPY .
Material ( GS SS ) & ( Chronomaster Ti ) 
The Citizen Clearly wins in the warranty & the adjustable hour hand.
The GS is LE , and exhibition case back , 2 cool points here.
The Citizen paper dial gets its own cool points.
Fit and Finish as i already stated to close to call .

After I spend some time with both I can do a review , but they are just to new now , as both I just bought .

If anyone has questions feel free ?


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## ronalddheld

jdmfetish said:


> The GS SBGV019 HAQ SPY 5 just arrived .
> These are only some quick pics of the two .
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> Pricing is about the same $2750.00 USD Each.
> Dimensions are close , ( GS 38 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) & ( Chronomaster 37.5 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) .
> Accuracy both 5 SPY .
> Material ( GS SS ) & ( Chronomaster Ti )
> The Citizen Clearly wins in the warranty & the adjustable minute hand.
> The GS is LE , and exhibition case back , 2 cool points here.
> The Citizen paper dial gets its own cool points.
> Fit and Finish as i already stated to close to call .
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> After I spend some time with both I can do a review , but they are just to new now , as both I just bought .
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> If anyone has questions feel free ?


Awaiting your review, when you can get to it.


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## Philipnwh

jdmfetish said:


> The GS SBGV019 HAQ 5 SPY just arrived .
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> Pricing is about the same $2750.00 USD Each.
> Dimensions are close , ( GS 38 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) & ( Chronomaster 37.5 mm x 10 mm x 20 mm ) .
> Accuracy both 5 SPY .
> Material ( GS SS ) & ( Chronomaster Ti )
> The Citizen Clearly wins in the warranty & the adjustable hour hand.
> The GS is LE , and exhibition case back , 2 cool points here.
> The Citizen paper dial gets its own cool points.
> Fit and Finish as i already stated to close to call .
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> After I spend some time with both I can do a review , but they are just to new now , as both I just bought .
> 
> If anyone has questions feel free ?


Those are great photos! I look forward to reading your review.

Are you able to compare the finishing on the hands and indices of both watches? For example, under the same lighting conditions, do the polished indices/hands glimmer and shine better for any watch? And for the parts that are brushed, are you able to distinguish the quality between the two? Thank you!


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## Tom-HK

These photos remind me of the side-by-side comparisons I made between my SBGV009 and my AQ1000-58B. I couldn't get past how deeply recessed everything seemed on the Citizen. The hands sat tall, the rehaut was steeply angled and the date sank deep into the watch. The Chronomaster, here, is definitely an improvement simply for not having a power reserve indicator, as this made the AQ1000's dial appear even more cramped. I also note that the paper-like dial differs significantly from my old Citizen. Still, though, I see some of the same traits in this Chronomaster and I would be interested to read a comparison of the dial set-up of your GS and Citizen.


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## dicioccio

The pictures are awesome - thanks !!!

I like The Citizen a lot more, the dial is wonderful and the indices seems to float. I also like the inner minute ring which is more "conical". The bracelet is more elaborated with 5 links.

The only thing I like more on the Seiko is the date window, less recessed and with a better visible font, and the GS logo on the clasp.

Unfortunately both have no lume...


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## jdmfetish

Philipnwh said:


> Those are great photos! I look forward to reading your review.
> 
> Are you able to compare the finishing on the hands and indices of both watches? For example, under the same lighting conditions, do the polished indices/hands glimmer and shine better for any watch? And for the parts that are brushed, are you able to distinguish the quality between the two? Thank you!


I can certainly try. 
The GS indices on top offer a lined pattern running length wise , and are displaying a matte finish . The sides of the indices are textured from the dial top running about 1/3 the way up the indices , and the last 2/3's are polished. At the same time each of the  indices offers 9 facets.
The Chronomaster indices are all polished , with 12 facets each, with slight texture on top of 6/9/12. The Light reflects and dances significantly more on the Citizen indices, than the Grand Seiko. 
As far as case work finishing using brushing and polishing. Both have fairly equal allocation of brushed finish, to polished finish, while both have razor crisp line separation between the two. Fitment of parts , the GS has a slightly lesser tolerance between its parts , over the Citizen. Finishing of said parts between both is a tossup and very hard to call a clear winner. Due to the GS being Stainless Steel and the Citizen Being Titanium , we are not comparing apples to apples, so keep that in mind. Hands for the Citizen are brushed with high polish edges , the GS totally polished . The GS has the blue seconds a neat offering, while shapes of both are nearly the exact same thing, the minute hand on the citizen seems to be more hypodermic needle style at the tip , and I am amazed how thin it is , & that they can even do that.

I hope this helps , if I missed something, or you have another question, please tell me ?


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## jdmfetish

Tom-HK said:


> These photos remind me of the side-by-side comparisons I made between my SBGV009 and my AQ1000-58B. I couldn't get past how deeply recessed everything seemed on the Citizen. The hands sat tall, the rehaut was steeply angled and the date sank deep into the watch. The Chronomaster, here, is definitely an improvement simply for not having a power reserve indicator, as this made the AQ1000's dial appear even more cramped. I also note that the paper-like dial differs significantly from my old Citizen. Still, though, I see some of the same traits in this Chronomaster and I would be interested to read a comparison of the dial set-up of your GS and Citizen.


I think the chapter ring in the Citizen certainly amplifies the dial depth, not certain whether its something I have issue with. But I totally see how it could disagree with some .
More comments in time still honeymooning .
Thank you


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## Philipnwh

jdmfetish said:


> Philipnwh said:
> 
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> Those are great photos! I look forward to reading your review.
> 
> Are you able to compare the finishing on the hands and indices of both watches? For example, under the same lighting conditions, do the polished indices/hands glimmer and shine better for any watch? And for the parts that are brushed, are you able to distinguish the quality between the two? Thank you!
> 
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> I can certainly try.
> The GS indices on top offer a lined pattern running length wise , and are displaying a matte finish . The sides of the indices are textured from the dial top running about 1/3 the way up the indices , and the last 2/3?s are polished. At the same time each of the indices offers 9 facets.
> The Chronomaster indices are all polished , with 12 facets each, with slight texture on top of 6/9/12. The Light reflects and dances significantly more on the Citizen indices, than the Grand Seiko.
> As far as case work finishing using brushing and polishing. Both have fairly equal allocation of brushed finish, to polished finish, while both have razor crisp line separation between the two. Fitment of parts , the GS has a slightly lesser tolerance between its parts , over the Citizen. Finishing of said parts between both is a tossup and very hard to call a clear winner. Due to the GS being Stainless Steel and the Citizen Being Titanium , we are not comparing apples to apples, so keep that in mind. Hands for the Citizen are brushed with high polish edges , the GS totally polished . The GS has the blue seconds a neat offering, while shapes of both are nearly the exact same thing, the minute hand on the citizen seems to be more hypodermic needle style at the tip , and I am amazed how thin it is , & that they can even do that.
> 
> I hope this helps , if I missed something, or you have another question, please tell me ?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the wonderful comparison, it was helpful. Like others in this thread, I'm looking forward to your further comments/comparisons.

I do have one additional specific question though. How precise is the second hand alignment in both your Grand Seiko and Citizen? I know some others have commented before on this, would like to see your comparison too!


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## jdmfetish

Philipnwh said:


> Thanks for the wonderful comparison, it was helpful. Like others in this thread, I'm looking forward to your further comments/comparisons.
> 
> I do have one additional specific question though. How precise is the second hand alignment in both your Grand Seiko and Citizen? I know some others have commented before on this, would like to see your comparison too!


I really prefer when its aligned perfectly, and the hand hits all marks spot on. Both of these watches the seconds hands are just perfect. I also had the GS SBGX117 when it 1st came to market and that 2nd's hand also hit perfect .

Thank you


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## wordforword

Seiko GS vs Citizen "The Citizen" quartz
Owning a few I would say:
The GS have better immediately noticeable quality, the "The Citizen" have a better feel good factor and character first noticed after a period of ownership. Like the perpetual calendar, "The Citizen" might not win the battle of watches in a 20 minutes visit to a watch store, but perhaps it wins the heart of the owner in the long run?

The GS has a better bracelet quality, the "The Citizen" has finer dials. Cases are a tie. Both brands have its + and - regarding seconds hand and index alignment, no brand is perfect.

GS are (better) marketed outside Japan, and look at the difference in range size (including all movements):

?????? ???? ?CITIZEN-????????
200 000 - 350 000 JPY

https://www.grand-seiko.com/jp-ja/collections/all/filter/order:price-asc
220 000 - 6 200 000 JPY


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