# Orient 40N5A Movement - Accuracy



## Tseg

I'm pretty new to watches and have heard of the long proven accuracy and value of Orient watches. I recently bought the lefty M-Force Beast and the Orient Saturation Diver, both with the newer 40N5A movement. It is interesting how similar both perform for me relative to accuracy and am trying to determine if it is coincidence?

If worn 24/7 each watch loses 8 - 10 seconds per day. If I set them face down over night they gain about 2 seconds over night, so if I do not wear them to bed can usually get through a 24 hour cycle with a net time loss of around 5 - 7 seconds. Are others with this movement experiencing similar? A lot of reviews of other Orient movements suggest they tend to gain rather than lose time.


----------



## Bezelbub

Hi Tseg,

Back in Feb 2013 I bought the M-Force xxxxxx with the 40N5A Auto/Hacking/winding movement and you can read my review here. Last week I wore the watch for about 5 days and it averaged -4.5 seconds per day. A great improvement over my original review in which I kept the watch in a winder and I think the only way to get a good idea of the rate is to wear the watch. At night I would put the watch face up or resting with the crown up. I'm a bit of an Orient nut and have collected many over the past few years, but I have noticed that some gain and some lose and I don't generaly wear one for more than a few days at most. But my overall impression is that they are a very good value for the the cost and excellent timekeepers.

Paul


----------



## Tseg

Bezelbub said:


> Hi Tseg,
> 
> Back in Feb 2013 I bought the M-Force xxxxxx with the 40N5A Auto/Hacking/winding movement and you can read my review here. Last week I wore the watch for about 5 days and it averaged -4.5 seconds per day. A great improvement over my original review in which I kept the watch in a winder and I think the only way to get a good idea of the rate is to wear the watch. At night I would put the watch face up or resting with the crown up. I'm a bit of an Orient nut and have collected many over the past few years, but I have noticed that some gain and some lose and I don't generaly wear one for more than a few days at most. But my overall impression is that they are a very good value for the the cost and excellent timekeepers.
> 
> Paul


Nice review. I think my variance may also be improving, but I guess there are worse things than having to move the watch forward or backward a minute once a week... as much as I'm playing with the watch anyway. I also find the M-Force quality nice and solid. My M-Force is very comfortable and I am impressed how bright the lume is. I think they are good value and am torn whether I can justify stepping up to a higher cost/quality watch beyond Orient. Even when I compare the Beast at 1/3 the price vs. the Saturation Diver I kind of shake my head asking if the OS300 is really 3 times as good as it has about the same accuracy, tells me the same date and is a tad less comfortable due to it's tallness. I do like the bezel, crown and crystal better on the OS300, a well a it's more classic design, but 2.5X more? Anyway, that is for another thread.


----------



## ajmiami

My new mforce 2011 orange dial is 0sec/day after 5 days...I have wear it about 33% of the time

I'm very impressed

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bezelbub

ajmiami said:


> My new mforce 2011 orange dial is 0sec/day after 5 days...I have wear it about 33% of the time


WOW, now that is impressive!


----------



## Farmfield

My Ray's is about 15 seconds fast after a weeks use, very impressive.


----------



## jtfoo

I have just received my SEL03001B0 from Amazon last 3 days ago. On the average it's losing 17sec per day. Should I get it regulated?


----------



## AutomaticWatch

jtfoo said:


> I have just received my SEL03001B0 from Amazon last 3 days ago. On the average it's losing 17sec per day. Should I get it regulated?


The specifications are +25/-15 s/d. If it's running outside that with some exact timing, you should definitely contact your dealer, as this should be covered by the warranty.


----------



## jtfoo

AutomaticWatch said:


> The specifications are +25/-15 s/d. If it's running outside that with some exact timing, you should definitely contact your dealer, as this should be covered by the warranty.


Thanks for the spec information. As I had the watch delivered to Singapore, returning the watch may be hassle here with additional shipping cost. I was reading, maybe I should let it run in for a couple of months and see if it improved.


----------



## Tseg

jtfoo said:


> Thanks for the spec information. As I had the watch delivered to Singapore, returning the watch may be hassle here with additional shipping cost. I was reading, maybe I should let it run in for a couple of months and see if it improved.


You may want to continue wearing it and track daily results (without readjusting the time) in a spreadsheet... Also document how it is positioned when not wearing it. My saturation diver with same movement has had wide variance in performance early on (always losing time) but within the past 24 hours is off only 4 seconds. Earlier this week I laid it face up all day on an end table and it lost 20 seconds. I'm hoping as it breaks in it becomes a bit more consistent. Also, over time I'll learn all its foibles.


----------



## Tseg

Bringing up an old thread here about the 40N5A movement accuracy. This movement is used in newer M-Force and Saturation Divers (hackable/hand wind). It has now been several months into owning (in 2 of my Orients) so would assume they are "broken in". How good are they? For both, if I fully wind them and lay them face up for 24 hours the are +/- 0 seconds... on the money... amazing! (not sure how it lost 20 seconds face up a month ago I my previous post?). At issue, unfortunately, is they both are subject to time loss when worn. And I've not come across a position where they gain time to any degree. When I am somewhat active they tend to lose just a little time... from a second or two to 5 seconds during a full day stretch. However when I sit at my desk all day and/or wear them while sleeping they can lose tons of time... My M-Force -8 seconds in 24 hours and my OS300 -15 seconds time loss if I'm being slug. The Power Reserve still shows fully charged so I don't think it has to do with being unwound when I'm docile. Orient's warranty policy is for outside of -15s laying face up at room temperature when fully wound it would fall under warranty. In this situation the watch works perfectly and would not be covered under warranty. 

I'm thinking of testing the watch on my right arm when deskbound to see what that does. So the bad news is I can lose up to 15 spd if I wear 24/7. However if I take it off at night I can keep the time loss to <8 spd or the OS300 and <4 seconds for the M-Force.

To summarize, the key message if you are to buy any of these fine divers: Don't Be A Slug


----------



## Marrow

I 
owned M-force 20 june. Today is cheking time - 37 sec for 7 days. wearing all day. no mechanical winding. resting on window in face up position. Good luck


----------



## Pakz

My Sat Diver is about +3s a day when power reserve is not full. When maxed out it sometimes then goes to about +10-15s a day. A weird behaviour but well...


----------



## David Brevelle

My new (like 2 days ago new) M-Force Air Divers 200 is doing the exact same thing...its 4 sec a day fast at below 90% power reserve. But when the needle is pegged out, it really starts to speed up. This is not good for me because by noon on a normal day its fully charged and runs fast the rest of the day. In the morning after its been resting its still at 70-75 % reserve. Not sure what to do a out it..
But to stay on topic, other than the above issue, its the most accurate auto I own.


----------



## ton2

my OS 300 (i believe with the same 40n5a movement) is quite fast at +10-ish seconds per day. although it has not yet been a month, i seem to notice that when i wear it, the rate of variance decreases as compared to a watch that is just sitting in my watch box. from what i gather, if it is faced flat it should normalize given the more equal effect of gravity. although way below the +25/-15 sec per day, a roughly 10 sec per day would be 300 seconds in a month or five minutes. question is, based on your reports of +4/+5/+3 sec per day, should i be concerned? my eta movement 2836-2 watch (i have two) runs at +4/+5 seconds per day. i know... apples vs oranges but still, +10-ish to me seems to fast. or is it just ok? am i just being O.C.?


----------



## dimman

ton2 said:


> my OS 300 (i believe with the same 40n5a movement) is quite fast at +10-ish seconds per day. although it has not yet been a month, i seem to notice that when i wear it, the rate of variance decreases as compared to a watch that is just sitting in my watch box. from what i gather, if it is faced flat it should normalize given the more equal effect of gravity. although way below the +25/-15 sec per day, a roughly 10 sec per day would be 300 seconds in a month or five minutes. question is, based on your reports of +4/+5/+3 sec per day, should i be concerned? my eta movement 2836-2 watch (i have two) runs at +4/+5 seconds per day. i know... apples vs oranges but still, +10-ish to me seems to fast. or is it just ok? am i just being O.C.?


If it is measured dial up, at room temperature, over 24 hours then +10 is within spec. (+25/-15 s/day)


----------



## ton2

Dimman said:


> If it is measured dial up, at room temperature, over 24 hours then +10 is within spec. (+25/-15 s/day)


thanks. that is the same thing that orient customer service (via email) told me. update though. i noticed that whenever my watch is at an rather upright or slightly angled upright position (i do not usually wear watches during work as my environment is not friendly to watches or any corporate-ish attire for that matter), it tends to either lose seconds or at best, keep the increase in seconds per day to a minimum of maybe +3/+4.


----------



## Watchguru58

What direction and TPD should a watch winder be set at to sufficiently wind this watch movement (40N5A)? Thanks in advance.


----------



## Watchguru58

Watchguru58 said:


> What direction and TPD should a watch winder be set at to sufficiently wind this watch movement (40N5A)? Thanks in advance.


Got my answer: 850 TPD Both Directions on the winder


----------



## mariosimas

My Triton looses around 7s a day.


----------



## numbers guy

Tseg said:


> I'm pretty new to watches and have heard of the long proven accuracy and value of Orient watches. I recently bought the lefty M-Force Beast and the Orient Saturation Diver, both with the newer 40N5A movement. It is interesting how similar both perform for me relative to accuracy and am trying to determine if it is coincidence?
> 
> If worn 24/7 each watch loses 8 - 10 seconds per day. If I set them face down over night they gain about 2 seconds over night, so if I do not wear them to bed can usually get through a 24 hour cycle with a net time loss of around 5 - 7 seconds. Are others with this movement experiencing similar? A lot of reviews of other Orient movements suggest they tend to gain rather than lose time.


I purchased my Orient Neptune/Triton with the 40N5A movement about a month ago (early Feb, 21) and have charted it's timekeeping and it's performance on my Weishi timegrapher consistently over this period. Relative to my Seiko 4RXX movement watches, I find the 40N5A's timekeeping somewhat erratic. For the first week the performance was OK, with an average loss of prox 6 spd and a range of -3 to -9. Perfectly acceptable, as were the readings on my timegrapher (amplitude of 240 to 260 in 4 positions and negligible beat error). The timegrapher showed a rate of -2 to +5 in 3 of the 4 positions, albeit with a puzzling +15 dial down.

Lately however I get puzzling results - it is consistently slow, from -2 to -21 (!) and my timegrapher is showing -12 to -18 in the vertical positions (crown up/down). I'm not unduly concerned - yet - but the days when I get the -12 and -15's are a bit disconcerting. Once again, this is much more inconsistent than my Seiko movements, which, in addition to my Seikos, are in many micro brands I own (Islander, Pagani Design, San Martin, etc) and way off my Swiss movements (Tissot, Mido). I also own Rolex, Breitling and Omega and they, of course, are close to flawless, albeit at a very premium price. I have to say I'm not impressed with the watch's timekeeping, although I love the look and function; bezel action, loom, legibility, bracelet, etc are all excellent.

On balance, I really love the watch but just wished the timekeeping was more consistent. We'll see if over time this corrects itself.


----------



## ^Gurthang54

The 40N5 caliber is one of the best contemporary Orient movements. It's been used in most of the previous 3-4 generations of Orient Star models and used in the legendary Orient Saturation Diver, all the M Force models and the Triton. It was replaced by the newer F6 caliber only recently. 

My M Force keeps the best time, over the past year it averages less than +/- 4 sec./day. This from a watch ~ 8 years old. I expect you will see the Triton's variance drop after a break-in period. 

My Ray II (F6922) were both inconsistent when I got them, now both are well within spec, a steady +5-7 sec/day.


----------



## numbers guy

Thanks for the input Gurthang54. Yes, I fully intend to track the watch over time hoping for the same results you've experienced with your Ray II. As mentioned, I love the watch and the overall quality and finishing. If it's timekeeping will just become more consistent it will be a permanent member of my collection and rotation. I had a similar experience with my Islander ISL-02; erratic at first, now, after several months it's averaging 0 - +3 spd with it's NH35 movement. Another watch with very impressive quality, finishing and value.


----------



## Tengrist1

My triton neptune is keeping time better than a swiss watch out of the box at +/-2-4 sec/day.
It stopped once when I wore it to test it while i was jackhammering but I banged it back to working order and its good as new.


----------



## numbers guy

I posted a couple comments on this subject earlier and have an update. My Neptune, with the 40N5 movement, started off with erratic, but borderline acceptable, timekeeping and devolved to the point where the watch would lose over 50 spd in certain positions. Sent it back to Orient, who were wonderful in providing me with whatever option I preferred - service the watch, or give full refund. I really loved the watch but this performance from one of their top movements concerned me, so I requested a refund. 

I really like what Orient is doing, in terms of market positioning, in-house movements and excellent workmanship on their watches, so I revisited their site and unfortunately this iteration of the Neptune is no longer available. You can find them on Ebay, but given the superb customer service I've gotten directly from their CS group in SoCal I'd rather stick to them. I subsequently purchased a Bambino directly from Orient and it furthered my interest and respect for the brand. Once again workmanship and materials look several classes above what you'd expect from a watch that can be purchased for under $150 and accuracy is excellent (+<2 spd!).

I'm a CPA and, as you can probably guess by my user name, am disproportionately influenced by timekeeping accuracy in my mechanical watches. I know, I know - - "then why don't you buy a quartz watch?" - - because it is the engineering and artistry of mechanical watches that I find so captivating. The prime objective of any timekeeping device is to keep accurate time and when you buy a Rolex, Omega, Breitling, etc that's what you get; COSC certified accuracy that holds up over time - my Rolex is 21 years old, has only been serviced once (9 years ago) and is consistently within COSC specs, as are my newer Omega and Breitling. This just goes to show that talented watchmakers (with obviously higher budgets for their builds) can get exceptional accuracy, and maintain it, with this combination of metal, synthetic jewels and sapphire. 

I don't expect COSC accuracy from watches in the $100 - $500 range, at least not on a consistent basis, but *do* get this kind of performance from my affordable Swiss watches (Mido, Tissot, Glycine, Hamilton) and some Chinese "homage" watches I've bought with, versions of the Seiko 4rXX movement. My biggest disappointment is with Seikos. The Pagani Design, San Martin, Steel Dive, Berny, and other Chinese/4rXX watches, in addition to my Islanders, consistently get low-to-mid single digit accuracy. My Seikos, using the same or similar movements, do not. In fact I am about to send back a $1,000 Seiko SPB051 (6R15 movement) for the 2d time in less than a year for deteriorating timekeeping (30 - 50 spd slow, amplitude below 200 deg). I've purchased numerous Seikos from Macy's and have had to return all but one for lousy timekeeping. It's clear to me that Seiko does *NOT* fine tune the regulation of their watches, and that many of their movement customers do.

I mention this because Orient is under the Epson/Seiko umbrella and my limited experience with their watches indicate inconsistencies in regulation (I also had to return a Kamasu that was erratic and in the 15 - 20 spd error range), just as in my Seikos. Is my experience unique, or do others have the same observations? Based on my experiences, I'm sticking to the affordable Swiss brands (Mido, Tissot, Certina, Glycine, etc), Islanders and the Chinese brands I have experience with (San Martin, Pagani Design, Berny, Steel Dive, etc)

Comments?


----------



## ^Gurthang54

Seems you've gotten a disproportionate number of dud watches. If I had the same luck w/ autos I'd only buy quartz watches today. 

I have a 40N5a M Force and it's the most accurate of all my autos, averages ~ 7 SPD, my two F6 calibers average ~ 10 SPD. The Seiko calibers are OK, average just over 10-15 SPD, all acceptable to me. I haven't owned a swiss movement so no way to compare. 

IMO, COSC certified movements are as good as anyone can get, and have a price tag to match, but I feel it's apples and oranges to compare a Rolex/Omega/Breitling etc. to any auto 1/10 the cost. 

As to overall accuracy, I managed a lab until I retired, we used all NIST traceable digital timers slaved to a radio linked master clock for timing tests/experiments etc. My autos were never part of lab time keeping. My philosophy is 'GECE', Good Enough, Close Enough for my autos.


----------



## Pilot2

My Triton/Neptune is typically at +1 SPD. Excellent performance.


----------



## Stew705

Bought my first automatic watch after 40+ years of quartz timepieces. Glycine Combat Sub is steady at +3.1 SPD. Using time.gov as the accuracy. Movement is the Sellita SW200-1. 

Numbers Guy: One thing you never stated is the Beat Error. Should be <.6ms to be in spec as I understand. I have seen some Youtube videos of people trying to adjust the beat error and accuracy with frustrating results. I would like to try it but not on my Glycine as it has .1 or .2 usually.


----------



## ^Gurthang54

DIY regulating is possible but hit/miss without a timegrapher. Correcting beat error DANGER WILL ROBINSON! best left to the pros.


----------



## numbers guy

Stew705 said:


> Bought my first automatic watch after 40+ years of quartz timepieces. Glycine Combat Sub is steady at +3.1 SPD. Using time.gov as the accuracy. Movement is the Sellita SW200-1.
> 
> Numbers Guy: One thing you never stated is the Beat Error. Should be <.6ms to be in spec as I understand. I have seen some Youtube videos of people trying to adjust the beat error and accuracy with frustrating results. I would like to try it but not on my Glycine as it has .1 or .2 usually.


I have several watches with significant beat error - one that ranges from 3.1 to >4 in various positions. It does not seem to affect accuracy on the watches I have. I contacted the manufacturer of one of the watches and his response was the primary problem with beat error is the difficulty it creates getting the watch "dialed in", which I assume means accuracy regulation. I've had 2 of the watches for over a year and accuracy is consistently <5 spd, so I'm not complaining. I was also advised by the manufacturer to be careful about measured BE on cheap timegraphers, which I assume means they're unreliable for this metric. I've come to ignore BE and focus on rate and amplitude (I have a Weishi 1000 TG). I've noticed deterioration of amplitude when timekeeping starts to erode. In fact, I'm awaiting a return from Seiko service in New Jersey on a Seiko 5 that exhibited this problem after several months of accurate timekeeping.

As a point of interest, the Seiko 5 was purchased from Macy's. It's the only one, out of 4 or 5 I've purchased, that I haven't returned for poor timekeeping. Haven't had this problem with any other reseller, so a caution on buying Seikos from Macy's. Also, in checking the serial number I found out the watch was 6 years old when I bought it. Don't know if that's an issue, just an observation on my part.


----------



## composer

What is the DNA of the 40N5A movement?

Although Orient is in-house, their movements (469 for example) from the 70's-80's were heavily based on the Seiko 700x base calibre. How similar is the 40N5 movement to the 6R15 movement (since both are hacking/hand-winding movements)? Are they very similar in their DNA, or is the 40N5 a full Orient creation.

The Seiko 6R movement's DNA are based on the 7s26, which is based on the 700X series. I wonder if we can then trace the lineage of the Orient 40N5 calibre way back to Seiko's 700x series then.


----------



## ^Gurthang54

There is precious little public info about most Orient movements. The 40N and other brethren are descended from the earlier 407/405. Orient developed all its movements in-house but they did incorporate other makers innovations into their designs. Orient licensed Seiko's 'magic lever' in the 46 caliber to improve winding efficiency.


----------

