# Would you spend $14,000 on a...



## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

Hey guys,

Would you actually spend $14,000 on a new PAM233 or would you spend your money on another watch?

if you won't, where would you out your money instead (given its a boutique/dealer)? Which particular watch brand and model would you actually get instead?

thanks,


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## seanwontreturn (Aug 9, 2013)

However much spending on a Panarai is not judgeable, but I will take a look at Breguet Marine big date or JB fifty fathom.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

there is no chance i would spend 14k on that panerai.


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## seanwontreturn (Aug 9, 2013)

shnjb said:


> there is no chance i would spend 14k on that panerai.


You just dont get Panerai love. :banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

wahasa said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Would you actually spend $14,000 on a new PAM233 or would you spend your money on another watch?
> 
> ...


How you climb a mountain is more important than reaching the top.
-- Yvon Chouinard, _Let My People Go Surfing: The Education of a Reluctant Businessman _

I know what follows is a lot, but if you take the time to read it, I think you'll find you won't need our answers about $14K or Panerai.

This question strikes me as exactly the same question as this one:



clarken said:


> If you had 8 grand to spend on a watch would you buy just one for that price or multiple watches?


The only difference is the sum of money involved. Therefore, the process for deciding what to do is identical in my mind, so I will re-post the answer I provided in that thread. (https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/hypothetical-1010197-4.html#post7655350) Your question, OP, and Clarken's, together facilitate an excellent illustration of one of the reasons I often say that the price of a watch is irrelevant. If one has a sound approach to solving the problem, it will be scalable and repeatable and will always yield an optimal result so long as it's applied faithfully.

Those folks here who are familiar with the principles of managing any endeavor will recognize the process identified below. The short of it is that I've taken the several steps of the basics of project implementation methodology and applied them not to implementing a business project, but rather to the goal of purchasing a watch. Depending on the methodology one is familiar with, the major phase names will vary, but what happens during each phase is exactly the same:

Define scope and make a plan for how the project will be conducted. -- I left this out of the watch scenario since the watch scenario is relative to just one person -- the buyer -- and take nothing more than a a commitment on his/her part. 
Analyze the current state of affairs. -- Step two below. 
Define the requirements for the future sate -- Step one below. Just as with a project, this step and the one before may have to swap sequence. 
Design and build the solution that will bring the future state. -- Steps 3 to 5. 
Test the solution -- Steps 6 to 9. This is where/when the price becomes relevant. Technically, one could constrain the requirements by the price earlier in the process, but doing that to buy a watch for oneself inhibits the development of "intellectual capital" which is something one should develop early on in this horological hobby of ours. With more experience and exposure, defining the price as part of the scope is fine. 
Implement -- This is essentially buying the watch. Again, I modified the process to fit the situation of a personal watch purchase rather than a multi-year, multi-million dollar business project that doesn't allow one -- or at least won't take kindly to -- a "Mulligan." 
OP, I think you can see that the process is what matters, not the price. If you want the best help from us, you'll need to provide us with the content of steps one and two below. The thing is that once you've addressed those two steps for yourself, you'd need to be super "incapable" not to handle the rest of the steps on your own.

One key difference is that a watch-purchase outcome/solution isn't improved by the consensus-based approach to decision making. The reason is that unlike on a business project where the members of the group who provide input are stakeholders in the outcome, we, your fellow members, have no stake at all in whatever you finally decide to do. Nothing ever got easier or better by soliciting input from folks who have no "skin in the game." What may be common between their point of view an yours is merely coincidental.

All the best.

A mistake is not something to be determined after the fact, but in the light of the information until that point.
-- Nassim Nicholas Taleb



tony20009 said:


> If the path be beautiful, let us not ask where it leads.
> - Anatole France
> 
> I don't know. Here's what I would do:
> ...


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

Holy !!!

Tony, I don't think I put that much thought into any purchase...

Would I spend the money on a PAM 233...I would and I did. I never understood Panerai until I placed one on my wrist. Then I got it. It's a great watch and if you love it then go for it. There is a huge passion for Panerai among the community and an equal amount of negative passion among the haters... I think you need to decide for yourself if this is something that you desire.





Cheers,
Rob


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Donut said:


> Holy !!!
> 
> Tony, I don't think I put that much thought into any purchase...
> Cheers,
> Rob


I know it seems like a lot of thought. It's actually more trouble to write it down. and takes longer to read that post, than it does to just do it.

Trust me, after you've been buying and looking into watches for some 20+ years or so, you'll know yourself, what you want and why well enough that it'll take you all of two minutes to go through the process and make a decision. Perhaps one has to take a bit longer the first couple times, but after that, a quick glance at a watch and it's specs and you know. No need to ask anybody what they think.

All the best.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

For the record I love panerai watches but i just think 14k for a stainless steel luminor seems like a lot of money when it looks more or less similar to the base versions with ETA 6497z


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

shnjb said:


> For the record I love panerai watches but i just think 14k for a stainless steel luminor seems like a lot of money when it looks more or less similar to the base versions with ETA 6497z


The Panerai 233 does look somewhat similar to a Base with ETA movement, so if your intention is to impress others, this watch is probably no going to give you the best wow factor for your buck.

I tend to buy watches to impress me. This watch does that, although it might not do the same for you

It has an 8 day inhouse manual wind movement with GMT, which I find to be a terrific complication. If you travel, the ability to move the hour hand forward or backwards independently of the minute and seconds hand is very convenient. I believe the 233 was the first Panerai with the P2002 movement which was a significant achievement in Panerai History. The 12 hour GMT hand with daylight/nighttime indicator has the ability to hide the GMT hand behind the hour hand if you have occasion to want to make your dial look simpler. It has a zero reset for the seconds hand which I really like, and it also has the quick change strap system which is great, especially when travelling because you can change straps up with a pair of toothpicks which you can get at just about any restaurant. It has a date and a crystal back to allow you to view the inhouse movement.

Does all this make it worth 14K ? It did for me...you'll have to decide for yourself.

Best,
Rob


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Donut said:


> The Panerai 233 does look somewhat similar to a Base with ETA movement, so if your intention is to impress others, this watch is probably no going to give you the best wow factor for your buck.
> 
> I tend to buy watches to impress me. This watch does that, although it might not do the same for you
> 
> ...


Hmm I don't know why you would assume that I would only buy a panerai to impress others.
I tend to like the simpler panerai's aesthetics better since that is what I find appealing about panerais in the first place.
I don't doubt that there are many Panerais worth 14000 like yours but for a person with a small collection like myself, it would be a tough sell.
At that price point, there are a couple of watches I would buy like the AP roo divers, used VC overseas and so on... Certainly if I had a large collection of great watches like you, I would be open to a complicated Panerai.


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

shnjb said:


> Hmm I don't know why you would assume that I would only buy a panerai to impress others .


I don't believe I said that...and if that's the way it reads I apologize. It was not intended in any way.

I don't believe this watch represents the greatest value in watchmaking. I don't use the logical approach that Tony does either. I cannot put together a list of features and find a watch based on these features. I see a watch as a complete piece, and when I cannot sleep because a watch haunts my dreams, well...then I have to buy it. Then I sleep like baby. Do I think my system is better than anyone else's ? Absolutely not, but it works for me.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Donut said:


> I don't believe I said that...and if that's the way it reads I apologize. It was not intended in any way.
> 
> I don't believe this watch represents the greatest value in watchmaking. I don't use the logical approach that Tony does either. I cannot put together a list of features and find a watch based on these features. I see a watch as a complete piece, and when I cannot sleep because a watch haunts my dreams, well...then I have to buy it. Then I sleep like baby. Do I think my system is better than anyone else's ? Absolutely not, but it works for me.


My apologies if that was not what you meant.

I don't have a system either. 
IMO, buying a watch above 3000 dollars is never going to be a very logical process.


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

shnjb said:


> IMO, buying a watch above 3000 dollars is never going to be a very logical process.


Agreed.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

shnjb said:


> ...IMO, buying a watch above 3000 dollars is never going to be a very logical process.


The process for choosing a watch -- expensive or cheap -- can be very rational. What may not be logical is defining requirements such that the only possible choices are watches that cost a ton of money. The process itself is quite sound; it's poor application of it that's problematic.

All the best.


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## MrDiff (Apr 27, 2012)

wahasa said:


> Would you actually spend $14,000 on a new PAM233 or would you spend your money on another watch?


I would and i did ... but i didn't spend that much ... with some research you can find one BNIB closer to 10k and pre-loved for under 10k.

Its a great watch!! And very versatile.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

To me panerai is all about the case. You either like it or not. But don't forget that Panerai is a tool watch. So when they try to sell it for something that is not that's when I have a problem. 
I bought a Pam 372 and I love it's simplicity, it does not pretend to be something that is not. The 372 has a Vintage style with proprietary movement


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## not12bhere (May 4, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> The process for choosing a watch -- expensive or cheap -- can be very rational. What may not be logical is defining requirements such that the only possible choices are watches that cost a ton of money. The process itself is quite sound; it's poor application of it that's problematic.
> 
> All the best.


Just my opinion, and therefore I do not push it on anyone. But in the interest of this great thread, here are my poorly articulated thoughts;

Unless you are extraordinarily wealthy and have access to buy unique pieces from the holy trinity plus one, your "collecting of watches" will most likely be about passion as other than asset accrual, you are not going to get wealthy on appreciation. That being the case, the only logic applied to the acquisition process in most watch collecting is an artifical construct of personal preferance on a feature by feature personal valuation scale placed on top of the monetary backing combined with the aesthetic inclination of the individual collector.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

Although my Panerai love tends to run to the uncomplicated (2 of mine are two handers) the 233 is one of my favorite "complicated" Panerais, outside of my favorite which is the 029 with the awesome tuxedo dial.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

heuerolexomega said:


> To me panerai is all about the case. You either like it or not. But don't forget that Panerai is a tool watch. So when they try to sell it for something that is not that's when I have a problem.
> I bought a Pam 372 and I love it's simplicity, it does not pretend to be something that is not. The 372 has a Vintage style with proprietary movement
> 
> View attachment 1455787


Love that 372 although I could never pull off a 47mm watch.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

ilitig8 said:


> Although my Panerai love tends to run to the uncomplicated (2 of mine are two handers) the 233 is one of my favorite "complicated" Panerais, outside of my favorite which is the 029 with the awesome tuxedo dial.


Pics of the 29?


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

not12bhere said:


> Just my opinion, and therefore I do not push it on anyone. But in the interest of this great thread, here are my poorly articulated thoughts;
> 
> *Unless you are *extraordinarily *wealthy *and have access to buy unique pieces from the holy trinity plus one, *your "collecting of watches" will most likely be about passion as other than asset accrual, you are not going to get wealthy on appreciation.* That being the case, the only logic applied to the acquisition process in most watch collecting is an artifical *construct of personal preference* on a feature by feature personal valuation scale placed on top of the monetary backing combined with the aesthetic inclination of the individual collector.


Okay, I don't in the main disagree with your thesis, but we are having this discussion in the HEW forum. I think it's no secret that the regulars here are all quite well off, even if there are other folks on the planet who are more well off. Accordingly, I don't know of a better place on WUS for discussing/offering a rational process for deciding on the fitness of any given watch for one's purposes.

I realize that not everyone will want to apply the process I suggested, but if they were to follow it and apply it correctly, like any relatively sound methodology, it will consistently result in positive outcomes. I suspect folks will see the process as "a lot of work" and that's why they may not care to attempt to apply it. To think that would in fact be an unfortunate rush to judgement. The approach I suggested isn't effective only when evaluating pieces that have a strong likelihood of increasing in value monetarily; it works at any price point. Moreover, as I said somewhere, the process takes more effort to write down and then read than it does to apply.

The one exception to that is found in the very early stages of one's watch collecting odyssey. At that stage of the game, one's awareness of what products are available, and the nature of differences that will most often be encountered among them, is somewhat limited. After about six months (or however long it takes one to read though all the "good stuff" on TimeZone (TZ) -- I have not found similar content on WUS), one will have a firm and objective awareness of the "horological playing field," after which it's not much of an endeavor to just build a fleeting familiarity with a pretty broad assortment of brands (Master Horologer: NOVELTIES 2011).

The approach you identified -- the personal preference construct --works, but it's not, IMO, terribly efficient. I think of that approach not as a comprehensive methodology unto itself, but rather as steps five through eight in the approach I outlined here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/hypothetical-1010197-4.html#post7655350. I think it's inefficient because it can result in one overpaying and in purchasing things that bore one later on. Mind you, ennui may ensue even if one uses my approach, but I think my approach reduces the likelihood of that happening. To be sure, however, for fickle folks, it may be that no approach mitigates that's chances of happening.

Were I asked, I'd say the one potential weakness of my approach is that it can be difficult to apply if one isn't particularly self-aware. The difficulty and weakness comes not in the approach itself but from the fact that folks who don't know themselves pretty well won't have the first idea of how and what to define as their requirements. If that step is goofed, the outcome will be sub-par. I know that stating that weakness is also problematic because most adults aren't introspectively objective enough to admit to themselves (there's no need to tell anyone else) they haven't the first idea of what they really want, or why they want what they think they do or should want. (That's why, I think, so many folks want to know what everyone else is choosing/thinking prior to making their own choice....but that's another topic...)

Sidebar:
Thirty years ago when I was just starting, it took years, literally, to discover the foundational content that is is now at one's fingertips on TZ and there was nothing even remotely like the brand listings such as the one I cited in the prior sentence, or those on Hodinkee, ABTW and Watch Time. As fpr seeing what watches the manufacturers offered, well, a printed catalog was one's sole resource, and occasionally one had to actually purchase the catalog. It was like that for furniture, antiques and and some other jewelry too.
End of sidebar.

All the best and TY for your thought provoking comment above.

The Sun Tzu School Ping-fa Directive: Be strong and continually aware. Manage your strength and that of others. When essential, engage on your terms. Be observant, adaptive, and subtle. Do not lose control. Act decisively. Conclude quickly. Don't Fight!
-- David G. Jones


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## hoppes-no9 (Jun 13, 2010)

seanwontreturn said:


> However much spending on a Panarai is not judgeable, but I will take a look at Breguet Marine big date or JB fifty fathom.


+1


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## HRC-E.B. (Dec 18, 2012)

You mean you've got $14K to spend on a watch, but so little urge to buy any in particular that you will buy based on popular demand? Does that make any sense?


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## hoppes-no9 (Jun 13, 2010)

HRC-E.B. said:


> You mean you've got $14K to spend on a watch, but so little urge to buy any in particular that you will buy based on popular demand? Does that make any sense?


Meh, it's fun stuff to talk about. We all do it.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

hoppes-no9 said:


> Meh, it's fun stuff to talk about. We all do it.


If someone isn't what others want them to be, the others become angry. Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own.
-- Paulo Coelho, The Alchemist

For me to "do it," someone else will need to fund the purchase. I bought a ~$20 watch on the basis of peer/colleague pressure and curiosity, but that's the most I've ever spent on a watch because of something akin to popular opinion.

Well, some folks who know me well (nobody on WUS) might argue that the statement above isn't entirely true.  I bought my RO without ever bothering to explore it for myself prior to purchasing it. One might say that was a "popular opinion" purchase. I wouldn't say that because what is more to point is that I bought the thing sooner than I would have had popular opinion not been in play, but I would have nonetheless bought one eventually for it was on the road map, it just wasn't "the next pit stop."

Personally, as the folks who'd say that are very, very close friends, I think they just want the satisfaction of being able to say that "the unflappable Tony" was at least once inspired to "follow the crowd." I can allow them that indulgence. <winks>

All the best.

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.
-- Douglas Adams, _The Salmon of Doubt _


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## ScorpionRS (Mar 15, 2013)

Why pay S class money for a mustang?


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

ScorpionRS said:


> Why pay S class money for a mustang?


Literally and figuratively speaking, what you mentioned simply doesn't occur in either the watch or automotive industry. All the same, I know what point you are trying to make, so I ll indulge it. I can think of several reasons:
Because one isn't _nouveau riche_? (







bad Tony <winks>)
Because it's a 1960s era Shelby?
Because the Mustang one buys is more likely to appreciate in value more rapidly than the S Class one could buy instead?
Because the Mustang one buys will retain its value better than the S Class than the S Class one could buy instead?
Because one thinks the S Class is butt ugly?
Because one is flush with cash and doesn't want to "drive their father's car?"

There are a number of watches that have ETA inside and that also offer things one cannot get from makers who produce their own movements. Most of those things have to do with art. I understand that you may not be into "art watches." Lots of folks on WUS don't seem to understand them if the dearth of posts about them on WUS is any indicator.

To my mind, after for the past 40+ years of buying and seeing the same thing rehashed over and over -- staid but lovely and elegant watches made by grand old _maisons_ and/or not so grand houses mimicking them -- a nifty art watch that's daring and that presents a fresh countenance is refreshing and desirable. Also, if one is buying from a small maker, having ETA inside is, for me at least, preferable as one can take comfort in knowing one can get the thing serviced without any hassle.

To try and illustrate what I mean, consider these three hypothetical collections and tell me which has more character.


Collection A
Rolex Sub
Patek Calatrava 5227
VC Overseas Chrono
ALS Lange 1
AP Royal Oak
Breguet Classique (simple or complicated)
ALS Datograph
Zenith El Primero Chrono
JlC MUT Moon
JLC Reverso

Collection B
Omega Speedmaster
Patek Calatrava 5227
A&S HMS 1 Dragon
Schaumberg Moon Two
Jacob & Co Palatial or Caligula
Clerc Hydroscaph
Corum Admiral's Cup Legend Chrono
Deep Blue dive watch green or yellow dial
Ressence Type 1 or Type 3
VC Malte or Historiques (pick one)

Collection C
Rolex Sub
Patek Calatrava 5227
Ressence Type 1
ALS Lange 1
AP Royal Oak
Breguet Marine
ALS Datograph
Schaumberg Moon Two
JlC Reverso (standard version)
A&S HMS Dragon

Now, personally, I think each collection is wonderful, but the second one has a lot more interest when it comes to looking at the watches. The third is something of a compromise between the first and second, but still, it's got a $20K ETA driven watch in it. All the same, taken as a whole, it's still got more to look at. At least that's what I think.

All the best.

Why spend S Class money to find that when it dies, there's no mechanic who can fix it?
- tony20009


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

ugh. let's not compare Panerais to Mustangs.
Mustangs are more comparable to Seikos or perhaps an Invicta.
Whatever it is, I don't want any part of it.

(although i did rent a red mustang once on a trip to las vegas with a lady)

Regarding the term nouveau riche, I think it is a bit of a canard.
Isn't Bill Gates a nouveau riche? Isn't Warren Buffet? Mark Zuckerberg? I don't see any showboating on their part.
On the other hand, the son of P-Diddy is not a nouveau riche. Neither is the sons and daughters of Asian conglomerate billionaires, whose spending on trivialities would make the above nouveau riche blush.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

shnjb said:


> ugh. *let's not compare Panerais to Mustangs.*
> Mustangs are more comparable to Seikos or perhaps an Invicta.
> Whatever it is, I don't want any part of it.


Oh...is that what he was doing? The idea of that is so preposterous to me that it didn't even cross my mind that that was what that statement was intending. I thought sure he had to be referring to the ETA comment.

Glad you cleared that up.


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## Watch_guy (Jun 26, 2008)

To answer the original question, no probably not, but you can find 233 for much less that that new, and about 60 percent of that pre owned. Now that seems like a better deal.


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## zephyrnoid (Mar 12, 2011)

I've been feeling a lot of hate over here at WUS. Let's say I am a 'polarizing' person.
Here goes.
For those to whom price point is irrelevant, $14000 on a watch is nothing relative to a dirt poor watch collector with $14.00 in his pocket.
Now if the question is about INVESTMENT value, we then enter an entirely different calculus and I poorly versed in this domain.
However, having said this, I can tell you from my knowledge in several other 'collector's' domains that scarcity is the key to long-term investment.
Frankly, Panerai, Mecedes Benz, BMW's and many brands formerly considered elite, have become so common in recent years that almost any ghetto denizen can own them ( even if they are not 'agents' or 'dealers' ) .
However, if the runs are very limited and the numbered runs sell out, THAT is a different game as well.
Even though I write about and photograph men's accouterments regularly, I'm not a snob at all. Au contraire! I go for fit, styling and appropriateness irrespective of price point in my personal 'gear'.
Without mentioning names, the 'homage' market has proven that good quality look-alikes get you to 90% of the way to your objective - Stylishness.
Still.The premium fabrication of the 'originals' gives them unparallelled longevity if that's an important criterion.
It also depends if you're a watch lover with an special attraction to provenance versus to engineering virtuosity . Or are you as fickle as I am and will abandon some watches purchased on whim within a year or two.
Having learned a stern lesson in visual illusion as a jewelry photographer in the 80's, I'm now very leery of the high end in anything much at all except Single Malt Whiskey and wine


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## not12bhere (May 4, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> Okay, I don't in the main disagree with your thesis, but we are having this discussion in the HEW forum. I think it's no secret that the regulars here are all quite well off, even if there are other folks on the planet who are more well off. Accordingly, I don't know of a better place on WUS for discussing/offering a rational process for deciding on the fitness of any given watch for one's purposes.
> 
> I realize that not everyone will want to apply the process I suggested, but if they were to follow it and apply it correctly, like any relatively sound methodology, it will consistently result in positive outcomes. I suspect folks will see the process as "a lot of work" and that's why they may not care to attempt to apply it. To think that would in fact be an unfortunate rush to judgement. The approach I suggested isn't effective only when evaluating pieces that have a strong likelihood of increasing in value monetarily; it works at any price point. Moreover, as I said somewhere, the process takes more effort to write down and then read than it does to apply.
> 
> ...


Tony,

Thank you for the thought provoking reply. Once again a combination of posting from a phone and lack of refinement have caused confusion. I should have started my post by saying it is my humble belief that the vast majority of individuals (including some in the HEW) use the method I described versus the methodical approach you advocated/described. I certainly don't believe the theory I posted is the best way to acquire HEW's assuming the income exists, only that in my short year of studying these boards and the sources you cited I have found the framework I described to be the way most eventually choose their next conquest.

As always I am impressed by your contributions to the forums and surprised by the sub-forums where I run into your posts!


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## mghead (Nov 26, 2013)

I am not a fan of PAM's with complications so I bought a 111 and I would take it over the 243 any day of the week. If I had $14,000 to spend, I would get an audemars royal oak 15400 in either white or blue.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Bidle (Aug 5, 2006)

Lost my love a bit for the brand. Still like some models and actual also own two. Still this model won't do it for me. At this time I don't know what I would buy for this amount of money. Also because since a few years most of the new models don't have my interest. So probably it will go to my vintage collection.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

If I drive a 100K car and have a big wrist....

Yes, I would spend $14K on that watch.

Otherwise, no.


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## little big feather (Mar 6, 2013)

I don't like Pam...Never seen one that I did like...So, I would not buy a Pam.
A Parmigiani,Rolex,Chopard,Jaquet Droz,Bvlgari,Breitling yes...Pam, No.


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## Luxtimeusa (Apr 17, 2014)

Newbie here..But i agree with a few people on here. 14k for a ugly watch makes no sense to me. i would rather wear a secondhand hublot or Lange


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Luxtimeusa said:


> Newbie here..But i agree with a few people on here. 14k for a ugly watch makes no sense to me. i would rather wear a secondhand hublot or Lange


I've seen worse from Hublot


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## GETS (Dec 8, 2011)

In answer to the OP's question I wouldn't spend $14,000 on this PAM but I would purchase one used. That's probably more to do with the constraints on my wallet rather than anything else though...

As for adopting a logical buying process (as laid out by Tony) or simply going with ones gut after examining the headline details (which is what I believe Donut says that he does) I guess I now find myself much more in the middle. Whilst I do not have the kind of mind that could handle the micro analysis that Tony's can I do go quite a bit further than buying on feel. I will examine the following:

a) State of the collection (where is my collection lacking? = functions, metals, dial colour, manufacturers, styles, genres etc)
b) Price range (what else is there in the market for that price and do I like any of them as much?)
c) Value (this is different to price and can be judged in many ways)
d) Wrist Time (am I buying it because I want to wear it or because I want to own it?)
e) How long have I wanted it (am I just buying it because it is a good price, I'm in a great mood, I have spare cash - or have I longed for it?) 

I suppose that where I come in on the PAM being discussed and where I am in watch collecting in general.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

I'd spend a lot for this one....









pic courtesy of Galerie Zeitlos,© mike stuffler

...but not for a PAM 233.


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## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

Wooooooooooooooow this thread proved to be very well... interesting. Re: the outcomes of this thread, as I posed this question last week, I though that I would confirm that I ended up buying this PAM233 for a number of reasons and I think it would be nice if I share MY THOUGHT PROCESS BELOW:


a) It was in my budget for a gift to myself (on my 30th birthday) which is in 5 days - April 24th 
b) I want an 8 days manual complication (or an auto) and not 2-3 days manual wind
c) I want to enjoy the quick strap change function
d) I have previously owned a number of used watches (which I sold all if them, including a used AP15300, used 7 days Portuguese, used Navitimer heritage, used PAM210, 5513, 1680, etc.) but it just doesn't feel right buying and even wearing someone else's used/no longer valued (by him/her) watch. So I sold all my used watches and decided I will only (as long as I can afford it) collect NEW watches from dealer/boutiques, that I want in the form that I like/want (dial, bracelet, leather, edition, etc.).
e) It complements my current collection: JLC Reverso Special Edition Rouge and Breitling Navitimer B01 (black dial)
f) Knowing that my next new watch is a blue APRO15202 (when I can afford one), I saw the PAM233 (size, case shape, dial, complication, how it looks so different on other straps, etc.) as something that is just not found out there in other brands. It is simply so unique and bold if I may say so.


Thanks all for this lively thread I really enjoyed reading your comments...

Do let me know me know your thoughts on the above as I am keen on receiving your input.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

wahasa said:


> Wooooooooooooooow this thread proved to be very well... interesting. Re: the outcomes of this thread, as I posed this question last week, I though that I would confirm that I ended up buying this PAM233 for a number of reasons and I think it would be nice if I share MY THOUGHT PROCESS BELOW:
> 
> a) It was in my budget for a gift to myself (on my 30th birthday) which is in 5 days - April 24th
> b) I want an 8 days manual complication (or an auto) and not 2-3 days manual wind
> ...


My thought on the above is that you should have told us that in your OP.

All the best.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

wahasa said:


> Wooooooooooooooow this thread proved to be very well... interesting. Re: the outcomes of this thread, as I posed this question last week, I though that I would confirm that I ended up buying this PAM233 for a number of reasons and I think it would be nice if I share MY THOUGHT PROCESS BELOW:
> 
> a) It was in my budget for a gift to myself (on my 30th birthday) which is in 5 days - April 24th
> b) I want an 8 days manual complication (or an auto) and not 2-3 days manual wind
> ...


I see , there is Nothing wrong with that. I think that your decision is in big part based on functionality and to complement your collection. And that works well for a lot of folks, To me a Pam is an entirely looks decision. 
In any event early Congrats !! 
On your GMT 8 days PAM

Regards


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## Bidle (Aug 5, 2006)

wahasa said:


> Wooooooooooooooow this thread proved to be very well... interesting. Re: the outcomes of this thread, as I posed this question last week, I though that I would confirm that I ended up buying this PAM233 for a number of reasons and I think it would be nice if I share MY THOUGHT PROCESS BELOW:
> 
> a) It was in my budget for a gift to myself (on my 30th birthday) which is in 5 days - April 24th
> b) I want an 8 days manual complication (or an auto) and not 2-3 days manual wind
> ...


All thoughts processes are good as long your happy with what you bought! ;-)

Do recognize some of it. I never buy second hand watches that are still available new. Just because I want to make the first scratch and just feels better. I also collect a lot of vintage and "rare" (sorry Tonny20009  ) watches so need to buy them secondhand.

So congrats on the new watch and don't forget to show us the photo's and the birthday cake.


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## PremierCurrency (Dec 5, 2013)

wahasa said:


> _*a) It was in my budget for a gift to myself (on my 30th birthday) which is in 5 days - April 24th *_
> b) I want an 8 days manual complication (or an auto) and not 2-3 days manual wind
> c) I want to enjoy the quick strap change function
> d) I have previously owned a number of used watches (which I sold all if them, including a used AP15300, used 7 days Portuguese, used Navitimer heritage, used PAM210, 5513, 1680, etc.) but it just doesn't feel right buying and even wearing someone else's used/no longer valued (by him/her) watch. So I sold all my used watches and decided I will only (as long as I can afford it) collect NEW watches from dealer/boutiques, that I want in the form that I like/want (dial, bracelet, leather, edition, etc.).
> ...


Congrats on turning 30!! My big 3-0 was in February! I've been absent from this forum for a couple months so I need to get updated. Did you buy a watch for your 3-0? If so, what????

As for the larger question, I can think of many other watches that I would prefer for $14k or under before I would pull the trigger on any PAM. IMO


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## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

So let's update everybody. As discussed, I went ahead and bought the PAM 233 for my 30th birthday. I was so excited I started buying extra straps (2 to be exact) and after 3 days... BOOM the watch was starting to run very late :| to be exact it was one hour behind the actual time. Fast forward a 1 week, the PAM 233 stopped running as in the watch was just DEAD. So I went to the dealer and unleashed my wrath: how the F$$K can you sell a faulty watch for $14,000? How can Panerai release this watch, don't they QA that the watch is functioning before they release it from Switzerland? Anyhow, I realized this will go nowhere with my complaints, so I just took it like a man and gave the watch for service (knowing it will take 2-3 months to get it back. I was already hating this watch and actually told the employee at the boutique I should have just got the AP, what was I thinking.... I will never EVER buy a Panerai again in my life.

So 2 months passed and Panerai sent my watch back with a letter guaranteeing that it is now in a perfect running condition. Honestly, I had already hated this watch so much that I could not be bothered to wear it anymore but I did that same day I got it back and after 5 hours of wear the PAM just stopped working again. To tell you the truth, this was starting to turn into my favor... So I went back (with my PAM233, box papers, receipt, bag) and told them to ... this watch and order the AP 15202 and I will settle the difference and that this was NOT negotiable.

I have never been so disappointed and yet so happy in my life at the same time.

So let's do a recap (keeping in mind my initial question as the OP, and some very valuable comments/contributions like Tony, etc.). I have one conclusion, when MURPHY decides to visit you/ your watch TWICE no pla, detailed process, study, risk averse will stop things from happening (to the good or bad).

I look forward to receiving one of the greatest watches ever made (AP 15202) from Switzerland in 3 months (end of September to be exact) five months after my birthday (April 24) but I can't complain.

Wael


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

Wow I am sorry to hear about those problems. Thanks for the update. I have a Pam 311-- Chrono, GMT, 8day and mine runs well. Very accurate. It does suck that on top of releasing a watch that is not running well that even after fixing it.. still does not function. That is just really poor QC etc.



wahasa said:


> So let's update everybody. As discussed, I went ahead and bought the PAM 233 for my 30th birthday. I was so excited I started buying extra straps (2 to be exact) and after 3 days... BOOM the watch was starting to run very late  to be exact it was one hour behind the actual time. Fast forward a 1 week, the PAM 233 stopped running as in the watch was just DEAD. So I went to the dealer and unleashed my wrath: how the F$$K can you sell a faulty watch for $14,000? How can Panerai release this watch, don't they QA that the watch is functioning before they release it from Switzerland? Anyhow, I realized this will go nowhere with my complaints, so I just took it like a man and gave the watch for service (knowing it will take 2-3 months to get it back. I was already hating this watch and actually told the employee at the boutique I should have just got the AP, what was I thinking.... I will never EVER buy a Panerai again in my life.
> 
> So 2 months passed and Panerai sent my watch back with a letter guaranteeing that it is now in a perfect running condition. Honestly, I had already hated this watch so much that I could not be bothered to wear it anymore but I did that same day I got it back and after 5 hours of wear the PAM just stopped working again. To tell you the truth, this was starting to turn into my favor... So I went back (with my PAM233, box papers, receipt, bag) and told them to ... this watch and order the AP 15202 and I will settle the difference and that this was NOT negotiable.
> 
> ...


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry you got unlucky. Keep in mind mechanical watches do have a tendency to have failures, notwithstanding even high end brands such as AP. I think this is also why many high end watch owners tend to have a rolex or seiko in their collection within the many pateks/aps/vcs. Hopefully the AP is perfect when you receive it, however service it regularly to prevent any mishaps in the future.


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## Moloch (Dec 29, 2013)

I'd say it was meant to be. You already knew your next watch will be the 15202 and watch gods deemed you ready by steering you clear of Panerai. As for me it is a constant battle of 15202 and 5711. My answer changes every day.


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## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

DESTINY 

i cant wait to be honest.

moloch, to be honest the 5711 doesn't speak to me that much the Aquanaut does that!


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## eamonn345 (Sep 29, 2013)

The PAM233 is a lovely watch but I wouldn't spend that amount on a PAM. Go for a PAM312 or a PAM372


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Another vote for the AP RO here. A classic design from a significant manufacture, and won't look silly when this monster sized watch fad goes away.


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Ipromise said:


> Another vote for the AP RO here. A classic design from a significant manufacture, and won't look silly when this monster sized watch fad goes away.


Hahah, I need to pay more attention to thread dates and read them through before commenting. But I like your choice! Looking forward to seeing the pics...


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## SearChart (Jul 13, 2014)

14K on a Panerai? no. I'd spend that on a JLC MUT Moon 39.


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

No. I'd sooner buy a few Omegas and a 5K panerai.


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## Bidle (Aug 5, 2006)

I'm done with Panerai. However can imagine to spend it on a watch and sometimes even more.


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## Timucin (Jul 13, 2014)

It is definitely a very personal choice. I don’t like very bulky watches. The largest watch I have is a 42mm El Primero where the case is not very thick, so it does not look very bulky on my wrist. 

I think a budget of $13 – 18K gives you access to some of the most iconic pieces from arguably better brands. 

At $13K, you can buy a Grande Reverso GMT with 8 days reserve. $14 – 15K is the starting level for some of the AP timepieces at grey market (if you don’t mind paying astronomical maintenance fees every few years). If I you are able to pay up a bit more, at $17.5K ($ equivalent of Swiss retail price after 7% tax rebate) you can get a Patek Aquanaut if you don’t mind putting your name down for a potentially a year-long waiting list. 
All the best,


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## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

For any late comers. FYI, I bought the PAM returned it and order the AP, for details kindly skim through the thread and your in out is most welcomed.


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

When do we get to seeeeee it? Hmmmm?


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

tony20009 said:


> Literally and figuratively speaking, what you mentioned simply doesn't occur in either the watch or automotive industry. All the same, I know what point you are trying to make, so I ll indulge it. I can think of several reasons:
> Because one isn't _nouveau riche_? (
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! I was just going to answer "because I like the look of the Mustang more" but your response does indeed point to other valid reasons :-! . . .


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## wahasa (Jul 27, 2011)

End of September hopefully/fingers crossed.


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