# Cartier Winding / Power Reserve Problem



## Thunder737 (Jan 27, 2020)

Hello -

I recently bought a new Cartier Santos from an AD. After wearing it a few weeks, it felt like the watch would stop running too soon after taking it off so I thought there might be an issue with the power reserve.

I tested it multiple times by winding it 40 times on the crown and then setting it down - it would consistently only get about 25 hours of reserve. I then tried winding it 60 times and got about 30 hours, and once wound it about 90 times and got 36 hours.

This watch is spec’d to have a 42 hour power reserve.

I’ve brought it into Cartier and they have inspected it and said everything is fine, but this just seems off that the watch fails to last the full power reserve.

My concern is that the winding mechanism is not as efficient as it should be - I’ve read that 40-50 times should be plenty for an automatic watch, but this requires well over 90. I’ve tried wearing it and being deliberately active for hours on end but still I never get a full 42 hour reserve.

Please let me know if you have any thoughts on what might be going on. For other context, the accuracy is great (+1 sec per day) and the amplitude is great as well (300+).


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Twenty winds is fine, do you sit in front of a terminal all day?


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## GrimFandango (May 8, 2018)

The way I understand it, the power reserve is how long it takes for the watch to stop when it is fully wound. If you get 30 hours out of 60 "winds", but it is not even fully wound at 90 "winds", then to me that does not indicate that there is anything wrong. I'd try to fully wind it at least once to really check how it performs. 

40-50 winds is plenty for an automatic watch to keep it running (in a lot of cases you can even just give it a slight jiggle and put it on your wrist). But it is not fully wound and therefore it does not guarantee a max power reserve. When you wear it, it typically retains the power reserve you put in it when it was wound (depending on the exact movement, your level of activity and so on). Wearing it does not wind the mainspring as far as it can go. 

If your watch had a power reserve indicator, you'd see that it indicated that when you do not fully wind it, it does not have its max power reserve. You'd also see that the power reserve does not increase or diminish by significant amounts when wearing the watch. And you'd see that whatever the power reserve is that is left when you take the watch off, is indicative of how long it will run without movement. This means that when you do not fully wind the watch, it is not possible to get the power reserve that is on the spec sheet.


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## Thunder737 (Jan 27, 2020)

GrimFandango said:


> The way I understand it, the power reserve is how long it takes for the watch to stop when it is fully wound. If you get 30 hours out of 60 "winds", but it is not even fully wound at 90 "winds", then to me that does not indicate that there is anything wrong. I'd try to fully wind it at least once to really check how it performs.
> 
> 40-50 winds is plenty for an automatic watch to keep it running (in a lot of cases you can even just give it a slight jiggle and put it on your wrist). But it is not fully wound and therefore it does not guarantee a max power reserve. When you wear it, it typically retains the power reserve you put in it when it was wound (depending on the exact movement, your level of activity and so on). Wearing it does not wind the mainspring as far as it can go.
> 
> If your watch had a power reserve indicator, you'd see that it indicated that when you do not fully wind it, it does not have its max power reserve. You'd also see that the power reserve does not increase or diminish by significant amounts when wearing the watch. And you'd see that whatever the power reserve is that is left when you take the watch off, is indicative of how long it will run without movement. This means that when you do not fully wind the watch, it is not possible to get the power reserve that is on the spec sheet.


Thanks for your response. Agreed with your points, but my concern is that it's not getting its full wind with 50 winds. I know it's enough to keep it going, but from everything that I've read the mainspring should be 100% wound, not just "enough".

Also I've found that the watch has to be "jiggled" for almost 3 minutes before it starts running. That's another reason why I'm worried the winding rotor is not winding the mainspring efficiently.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Jiggling is almost like shaking, use the crown.


Thunder737 said:


> Thanks for your response. Agreed with your points, but my concern is that it's not getting its full wind with 50 winds. I know it's enough to keep it going, but from everything that I've read the mainspring should be 100% wound, not just "enough".
> 
> Also I've found that the watch has to be "jiggled" for almost 3 minutes before it starts running. That's another reason why I'm worried the winding rotor is not winding the mainspring efficiently.


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## Thunder737 (Jan 27, 2020)

Right - I know that using the crown is the best but it seems unable to reach full wind (and full power reserve) which is what I’m trying to figure out.


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## MDNoobie (Feb 19, 2020)

See the remarks that pertain to your issue here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw06Sb2b9-M0vjW_KFfMekzT&cshid=1582735618415


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## antistokes (Dec 20, 2018)

I have a similar issue with my Cartier Santos.
I have a JLC reverso, which is manual wind only and the crown stops when it is fully wound. It takes around 100 of my own personal “turns” to get it fully wound, +/- 10 turns. Sometimes 90, sometimes 110. The max power reserve is specified at 48 hours for this watch and I tend to get that or slightly more.

The Cartier is specified at 42hours of max power reserve. However I wound it with 50 of my personal “standard” turns, then put it down and waited. It only ran for 8 hours. I’ve now wound it 150 “turns”… let’s see how it does.

I’m sure the winding mechanisms on different watches can have different efficiencies, but 50-100 turns seems like it should be enough.

For an automatic watch maybe they don’t want it to be constantly at the limit of the release clutch that prevents overwinding, but in that case it still feels like 50-100 winds should at least give _half_ of the power reserve. (??)

Does anyone know if this is typical for automatics? (Winding 50-100 “turns” and still not getting the full expected power reserve or at least half of it?)


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## mjrchabot (Apr 5, 2011)

antistokes said:


> I have a similar issue with my Cartier Santos.
> I have a JLC reverso, which is manual wind only and the crown stops when it is fully wound. It takes around 100 of my own personal “turns” to get it fully wound, +/- 10 turns. Sometimes 90, sometimes 110. The max power reserve is specified at 48 hours for this watch and I tend to get that or slightly more.
> 
> The Cartier is specified at 42hours of max power reserve. However I wound it with 50 of my personal “standard” turns, then put it down and waited. It only ran for 8 hours. I’ve now wound it 150 “turns”… let’s see how it does.
> ...


150 turns of the crown does sound excessive.
I took my Santos Medium out today and had to wind it to get started, it took probably 20-25 turns. I didn’t count, but I do know it takes more than my Omega, Tudor, or Rolex. My 3861 Speedy starts after about 3-5 turns, where the Tudor and Rolex usually take about 10-15 turns. 

The crown on the Santos is pretty small, so it could just be a matter of the gear ratios too. I’ve had my Santos since June and have had no issues with it stopping. I also wear my watches in rotation, typically for 4-7 days at a time though. 

In 14 years of collecting, I’ve never once tested power reserve on any watch. To be honest, I would just enjoy your beautiful watch, wind it to the point of starting, set the time and go on with your day. If you’re wearing it daily, give it another 15-20 turns in the morning for good measure and enjoy your day!

I find this hobby can be more enjoyable when we scrutinize our watches less. Obviously if you’re having an actual technical malfunction, Cartier will sort it out. 


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## montelatici (Apr 28, 2006)

Thunder737 said:


> Hello -
> 
> I recently bought a new Cartier Santos from an AD. After wearing it a few weeks, it felt like the watch would stop running too soon after taking it off so I thought there might be an issue with the power reserve.
> 
> ...


I have owned automatic watches since 1967 and have never thought of measuring power reserve. I have owned only one manual wind watch with a power reserve indicator, a Reverso, and I remember that it took quite a few winds to get the indicator to show full. I almost never tried to wind it fully, in fact, winding a manual a bit throughout the day is a sort of nervous quirk with me.  I keep my autos on winders and those with power reserve indicators seem to always show full power reserve on the indicator when I take them off the winder. Buy a winder and see what happens.


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## MellowYellow (Feb 27, 2021)

I have the current Santos Medium. I've noticed that the hex crown shape and small area outside of the crown guards result in very little wind per "turn" compared to other watches. It also seems the gearing may further add to more turns being required. To me this seems to be a design choice to fit the movement in a fairly small case as well as meeting a particular visual design, not a flaw with the watch. I find that if I don't wear it back to back days then I have to wind and set it. I can live with it, but I initially had the same reaction as you. Overall, still an excellent value.


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## qcjulle (Jun 5, 2013)

I just measured the PR of my new Santos Large and got 45.5 hours our of it, which is of course nice for a movement that only promises 42 hours.


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## antistokes (Dec 20, 2018)

mjrchabot said:


> 150 turns of the crown does sound excessive.
> I took my Santos Medium out today and had to wind it to get started, it took probably 20-25 turns. I didn’t count, but I do know it takes more than my Omega, Tudor, or Rolex. My 3861 Speedy starts after about 3-5 turns, where the Tudor and Rolex usually take about 10-15 turns.
> 
> The crown on the Santos is pretty small, so it could just be a matter of the gear ratios too. I’ve had my Santos since June and have had no issues with it stopping. I also wear my watches in rotation, typically for 4-7 days at a time though.
> ...


Thanks for the reply!!

I haven’t yet tested to see what the minimum number of turns would be to achieve the full power reserve. 150 seems excessive to me as well.
50 turns for only 8 hours of power reserve also seems rather inefficient, though, if you ask me. Maybe the winds vs power reserve hours isn’t linear. 50 turns to get to 8 hours and 100 turns to get to 42. So far I just know that 150 turns gets me to 42. 

I agree about enjoying our watches, and I don’t intend to nitpick whether my watch has 42 hours of reserve exactly, or whether it has 40 or 44.

I just want to know if it is behaving normally or not, so I can have it fixed if something is wrong.


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## antistokes (Dec 20, 2018)

Thunder737 said:


> Hello -
> 
> I recently bought a new Cartier Santos from an AD. After wearing it a few weeks, it felt like the watch would stop running too soon after taking it off so I thought there might be an issue with the power reserve.
> 
> ...


Same for me (see my longer comment below).
I have others automatics. They take 30-60 turns for full power reserve (and more than 42 hours also). My manual wind reverso takes 100 turns. 
Their gear ratios must be different from the santos. 
I’ve checked again and I need to use 150-160 “turns” to reach 42 hour power reserve. Everyone’s turns are different but the above examples give some sense of my turns and how they wind other watches.

Basically, I’ve confirmed that I need 150-160 turns to reach full power reserve, and it sounds from your post like that is “normal” for the Santos. I don’t mind the extra turns, I just wanted to make sure there was nothing explicitly “wrong” with mine.


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## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

When I owned a Speedmaster, I had asked a friend how many turns his manual winding took to reach full power reserve. Astonishingly mine required 3 to 4 times more turns than his. We learned later that his turns were long winds, from finger tips to knuckles, while mine were short quick turns, probably quarter turns to his full turns. Seems people have different wind rates.


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## soufiane (Jul 23, 2012)

I had the same issue with a SOLO XL now sold. Before the sale I took it to Cartier and they replaced the mechanism according to them. Never had a problem after that 


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## paul-smith (Oct 12, 2021)

I am seeing low power reserve (12 hours) with 40 winds also. I am now trying many more winds!


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## mjrchabot (Apr 5, 2011)

paul-smith said:


> I am seeing low power reserve (12 hours) with 40 winds also. I am now trying many more winds!


Odd…

I wear my watches in rotation for a week at a time usually, so it requires winding and setting each time I grab a new one. When it comes to my Santos, I just wind it enough times to get it started, maybe 12-15 winds and then I wear it. No issues whatsoever.

When you get it 40 turns, did you just rest it on a table after?


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## paul-smith (Oct 12, 2021)

*mjrchabot*
Yes, not wearing it. I now did 80 winds and turned further and got circa 41 hours as of today.

I think that either my turns are not full turns as the crown is so small, or from dead the first 20-30 turns do little and the final turns are what matters.


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