# 55 mm Replica A & B



## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

The 55 mm Replica A & B watches arrived this morning. Below are some pictures. I took some pictures with the Replica A and a Stowa no logo which I believe is approx. 40 mm, and the B I took with the WUS B-Uhr. The Replica watches are extremely impressive and well executed. To say I am pleased would be an understatement.

vincesf


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## Startime (Nov 7, 2009)

Very nice. I have the B type already and ordered also an A type. 
On your A type picture it seems that there is something on the dial. 

Best regards
Startime


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Startime said:


> Very nice. I have the B type already and ordered also an A type.
> On your A type picture it seems that there is something on the dial.
> 
> Best regards
> Startime


Reflection of the camera, (or maybe OP's pierced tongue :-d ?) as it moves around on the other pics.


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Yes, everything was a reflection, as I was anxious to take pictures and was only able to do so at my office, which has overhead lighting that can not be turned off. As a result, items reflected off of the face of the crystal. The watches are quite perfect, and exceeded my high expectations. As for the strap, it's great. It is large enough to wear either on top of or under my jacket. Again, where else are you going to find a 1:1 scale of a WWII Flieger watch from one of the original manufacturers....? They are truly sensational.

vincesf


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

INCREDIBLE! :-!

Wimpy little Stowa... hardly deserves to be in the same image. :-d

I'm not even trying to think about the one I'm waiting for; it's less painful that way. But pictures like those aren't helping me any.

By the way, what's the weight like? Is it substantially heavier over a typical watch?


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Uwe W. said:


> INCREDIBLE! :-!
> 
> Wimpy little Stowa... hardly deserves to be in the same image. :-d
> 
> ...


Yes, it is heavy for a watch, but I like the feel, and it really is not a factor in the wearability of the piece. I personally will like wearing this over my leather jacket sleeve, as it was intended. And when I am not quite in the exhibitionist mood, it fits nicely under my jacket sleeve as well.


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

vincesf said:


> The 55 mm Replica A & B watches arrived this morning. Below are some pictures. I took some pictures with the Replica A and a Stowa no logo which I believe is approx. 40 mm, and the B I took with the WUS B-Uhr. The Replica watches are extremely impressive and well executed. To say I am pleased would be an understatement.
> 
> vincesf


Love your pics.... which one you like more... A or B? If you were to pick one ONLY  which one would you pick? A or B ?

Thanks

Bruce


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Bruce:

I am a bad one to answer this as I could not decide. I really like both dials, and Laco executes both perfectly. There has been some discussion about the minute hand on the Laco Replica Type B, being the wrong shape, but collectors have sent me pictures of both, one with a "thick end" style and the thinner style, as found on the Replica Type-B. My only suggestions is to consider spending an additional 43 Euros in having the side of the case engraved with the "FL 23883", which in my opinion should be standard, but completely understandable to keep the price lower (in my opinion is a steal).

Below is another link to a comparison of the styles / makers and a brief history. Note the picture of the Laco dial, which is of the B-Type.

http://brown-snout.com/horology/collection/_archive/archimede_flieger_original/b-uhr_article.pdf

Enjoy,


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## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

AWESOME Duo. :-!:-!
congratulations. enjoy them in good health.
(for some reasons i thought the Hands are Blued. :think:?) but Man ! they are NICE. 

Cheers
Tony


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Tony A.H said:


> AWESOME Duo. :-!:-!
> congratulations. enjoy them in good health.
> (for some reasons i thought the Hands are Blued. :think:?) but Man ! they are NICE.
> 
> ...


Tony:
Thank you for the congratulatory comment. I know this sounds like, "whatever I own is the best", but with a watch this large, I think the black hands look less busy, and generally work well on the 55 mm. I also own other Flieger watches from Stowa and Laco, with blue hands, and believe they look sharp as well. I generally have no preference, just as long as they have some basis in historical accuracy.

I imagine there are original versions of this watch with blue hands and others with black, so don't be surprised if other limited edition watches with some of these variations are introduced (just speculating).

vincesf


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

I belive all Minute and Hour hands were blued. The Seconds hand was first blued, then Black painted. 
Nalu showed this some time ago.
I think the Blueing was made to harden the hands and maybe rust proof them?

Maybe Nalu can chime in with his (expert) thoughts?


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

vincesf said:


> The 55 mm Replica A & B watches arrived this morning. Below are some pictures. I took some pictures with the Replica A and a Stowa no logo which I believe is approx. 40 mm, and the B I took with the WUS B-Uhr. The Replica watches are extremely impressive and well executed. To say I am pleased would be an understatement.
> 
> vincesf


Vince... btw... how's the lume on the A/B? Thanks

In the age of Youtube etc.... do you mind to post some "action" videos of the A/B in action??? :-d

Bruce


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## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

i just looked at some Pictures of the


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## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

sorry.!
i just looked at some Pictures of the Original 55mm A.Lange, IWC and Laco. they all have Black hands.
so this 2 New LACOs are more true to the Original Design.;-)
Tony


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Janne said:


> I belive all Minute and Hour hands were blued. The Seconds hand was first blued, then Black painted.
> Nalu showed this some time ago.
> I think the Blueing was made to harden the hands and maybe rust proof them?
> 
> Maybe Nalu can chime in with his (expert) thoughts?


This could be, as I have seen some watches purported to be original with black hands they could have been modified, so you may be correct, as my knowledge is only through observation. 
Thanks,
vincesf


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Bruce-YVR said:


> Vince... btw... how's the lume on the A/B? Thanks
> 
> In the age of Youtube etc.... do you mind to post some "action" videos of the A/B in action??? :-d
> 
> Bruce


Bruce:

I am not able to shoot a video. Perhaps someone else who is better equipped can accommodate your request. I would imagine the lume is quite strong on these watches.


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Here are a few side by side and lume shots of the Laco A & B 55mm manual wind Replicas. 

vincesf


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

You will not have any problems getting a seat on a crowded train in that combo!!
;-) :-d |>


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Janne said:


> I belive all Minute and Hour hands were blued. The Seconds hand was first blued, then Black painted.
> Nalu showed this some time ago.
> I think the Blueing was made to harden the hands and maybe rust proof them?
> 
> Maybe Nalu can chime in with his (expert) thoughts?


Anyone? I like the black hands, but I also like accuracy, so could someone shed some light on whether any of the original watches came with black hands? Sure there are pictures of original watches with black hands, but did they come with blued hands and later retrofitted by owners with black-style hands?

vincesf


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Janne's assesment is correct. The originals came with blues hands and a second hand painted black. That being said the black hands or the le laco watch are very well made.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Congrats :-!


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

vincesf said:


> Anyone? I like the black hands, but I also like accuracy, so could someone shed some light on whether any of the original watches came with black hands? Sure there are pictures of original watches with black hands, but did they come with blued hands and later retrofitted by owners with black-style hands?
> 
> vincesf


I have photos of all of the original beobachtungsuhren (save for Wempe) and they have blued H/M hands and black seconds, which on some seconds the black has worn or chipped to show that it's blue underneath. I do have some photos of a restored IWC which has black hands and believe this to be an error or a shortcut on the part of the modern company. Note that depending on photographic technique, blued hands may look black in a photo.

IMO, blued hands improve legibility in low-light situations - including when it's not dark enough for lume to be effective. I'd like to see a full-size replica with blued hands.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Thank you for confirming, Colin!
Yes, a great pity Laco did not blue the hands.
IMHO even a chemical blued finish is better than black paint.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Nalu said:


> I have photos of all of the original beobachtungsuhren (save for Wempe) and they have blued H/M hands and black seconds, which on some seconds the black has worn or chipped to show that it's blue underneath. I do have some photos of a restored IWC which has black hands and believe this to be an error or a shortcut on the part of the modern company. Note that depending on photographic technique, blued hands may look black in a photo.
> 
> IMO, blued hands improve legibility in low-light situations - including when it's not dark enough for lume to be effective. I'd like to see a full-size replica with blued hands.


I'm not convinced.

Of the dozens of Beobachtungsuhren shown in Knirim's book, only a few have exposed blued hour and minute hands. All the others appear to have been painted black. I understand how the viewing angle can make a blued hand appear black (I own a few watches with blued hands), but in Knirim's photos you can clearly see blued metal on the pinion area of the hands, and how the hand remains black elsewhere.

Photos of an original Laco currently for sale at Classic Watch shows an A Baumuster at different angles; in both the hands appear black. Once again, as with Knirim's images, it is possible to see the exposed blued material at the pinion:


















If I understood your post correctly, you're claiming all of these watches are either restoration "errors" or "shortcuts"? How would painting a blued hand be a shortcut? It sounds like more work to me. Perhaps the photos you mentioned are of hands that have lost their original paint?

As for blued hands improving legibility in the dark, that's something I have yet to experience with any of my watches. Typically I've observed that it takes a light source to reflect off the hands to produce that glint which makes them more noticeable.

Based on what I've seen from numerous sources, I'll be content with the black hands on my 55 mm. However, I'll always welcome any conclusive proof that would prove they should be unpainted blued metal.


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

It's very expensive to produce blued hands, especially if we're talking heat-blued, but easy to paint metal hands black for a restoration. That's what I mean by a shortcut.

Both my Lange and Laco B-uhren have blued H/M and black over blued seconds. Of the other roughly half-dozen b-uhren I've seen IRL, all follow that pattern.

The photos you show from Zaf's site looked like blued hands to me. It is difficult to capture blued hands in a photo and nearly impossible to make a picture that shows the entire hand as blued at once. OTOH, it's very easy to see the difference in legibility between blued hands on a black dial and black hands on a black dial IRL. For example: blue or black hands (borrowed photo)?










The Laco WUS Bau B LE and the Laco Support Chrono are a clear example of the improved legibility of blue hands on a black dial when I look at them side by side.

I'll tell you what: I'll email Konrad and ask him about the hands - will that satisfy you?


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Hi Colin,

It appears the point I was making in my post wasn't understood. 

At no point did I dispute that the original hands weren't constructed using blued metal. What I did question was whether or not the the hour and minute hands were originally painted black similar to the second hand. As I mentioned in my previous post, it's often possible to see blued material at the pinion of the hour and minute hands in most original B-Uhr photos. Of course the viewing angle will dictate whether blued hands appear black, but that doesn't explain why in so many photos the pinion area can appear blued while the rest of the material of both hands consistently appears black. 

For this reason I was under the impression that all the hands were originally painted black. I can't think of a logical reason why they would have painted the seconds hand and not the others. Arguing increased legibility doesn't make any sense; the far greater surface area of an hour and minute hand over a second hand already makes them far easier to read. Surely the legibility of the second hand was just as important, wouldn't it have been left blued too if that were the case?

With regard to Laco's recent 55 mm replica, it's my contention that if the hands in original models were painted black, I wouldn't be upset that they used black hands instead of painting over blued hands for the replica. Since the overall effect would be the same I don't see the need of incuring the additional expense for something that you wouldn't normanlly see.

As I often refer to his book, I would absolutely like to hear Herr Knirim's opinion on this matter. Should he reply in German could you please post his response ad verbatim? I've found the translations in his book to be dodgy at times.

Thanks.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

All I can say in this discussion is that on my 1944 Laco B-uhr, the Hour and Minute hand were originally Blued.
Heat or chemical blueing - I do not know, but I suspect they were chemically blued, because it is a far cheaper process, with a 100% sucess rate.
I might be wrong of course.
The watch was never restored, completely untouched. Used-yes.
It does not make sense why the hands would be painted black after they were blued.
Makes no economical sense, nor a visibility one either.
Yes, the Seconds hand has been painted black over the blueing but I have never understood why.


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

Uwe, I understood your post perfectly.

From what I've seen, the seconds hands are all painted black, with some having lost some paint and appearing blued underneath. I've *never* seen an hour or minute hand which is part blued and part painted. Why would that be? Does anyone else find it nigh-impossible that the black paint could be completely chipped off of blued hands and yet the adjacent lume is untouched?

One cannot judge whether a hand is blued or painted black easily from a photo. A blued hand may appear blue in parts and black in parts, especially in a scan as Konrad uses in his books. The pinion area can be seen more easily because of the curve of the metal and the fact that more wear occurs there (hand removal and reinstallation for service) and so the bluing is lighter or almost absent in some watches.

Again, the scan from Zaf looks like it has blued hands to me. The lighter reflection at the edges of the minute hand is not consistent with a painted hand. I notice you didn't hazard a guess at the Lange photo I posted. The hands are entirely blued, as seen in the photo below:










The appearance of the hands depends entirely on the photographic technique used. On scans, there is no technique to speak of and the hands tend to always look black.

My email exchange with Konrad is ongoing. As always, he replies to me in English.

I can't address your feelings about watch ergonomics, you seem convinced in your opinion. I can only tell you that I've studied vision and hearing in the military environment for thirty years, at one point working with the hardware and software engineers at Boeing and Sikorsky who designed a new generation of SOF rotary wing aviation cockpits to ensure that they were user-friendly. My observations aren't idle ones.

The portion of the second hand that is painted is not the business end and having it blend into the black background as much as possible _improves_ legibility. Has anyone ever had problems with the lume dot on the "wrong" end of a Seiko or Citizen seconds? Exactly. On a b-uhr the eye goes immediately to the white/lumed end of the seconds and naturally ignores the matt black counterweight end.

Why was the seconds blued at all? Because bluing improves resistance to oxidation and because all of the hands were probably made at the same location and at the same time.


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

It seems rather convincing that the originals all came with blued minute and hour hands, perhaps Laco could offer this as an extra-cost option or extra cost retrofit to those who want blued hands. I believe this was done for the Laco WUS Limited B-uhr (blue hands with a reshaped sword minute hand). 
Black hands may not be historically accurate, but are attractive. Nevertheless, if enough of us are wanting blued hands, perhaps Laco could offer it, for an extra cost.

vincesf


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

We went round and round about getting blued hands for the Laco WUS BauB LE project and eventually got them at added cost. It took a while. However I agree that it would add a lot to these watches.

The short answer from Herr Knirim is that he does not know the milspec and he's not sure about the hands. He has no beobachtungsuhren on hand to inspect.

I'll put it to Pil/Mil and MWR when I get a chance. I know there are at least a half-dozen b-uhr owners on MWR.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Colin, thanks for your information on this subject. I hope you can understand why I would find it very perplexing that 90 percent of the images I've seen show black hands; I would have thought the bluing would have appeared more often given the numerous angles that the photos were taken from. The one thing I have noticed about original Beobachtungsuhren is that the bluing appears much darker than any of the blued hands on the contemporary watches I own. I would be curious to know if that is an affect of oxidization or tarnishing over time - or if the process used to blue the metal was different and resulted in a darker shade.

I have to admit surprise that Herr Knirim didn't have an immediate answer. Please let us know if he comes up with something in the interim.


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

The B-uhren bluing was done by heat, as was the common practice then. The shade depends entirely on the 'formula' or 'recipe' used. I suspect tarnishing also has an effect - I've seen B-uhren hands which have started to oxidise too.

These days, almost everyone performs chemical bluing which gives a lighter color. Only one supplier that I know of does the heat bluing for hands and the process is expensive.


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

Nalu said:


> The B-uhren bluing was done by heat, as was the common practice then. The shade depends entirely on the 'formula' or 'recipe' used. I suspect tarnishing also has an effect - I've seen B-uhren hands which have started to oxidise too.
> 
> These days, almost everyone performs chemical bluing which gives a lighter color. Only one supplier that I know of does the heat bluing for hands and the process is expensive.


Well... you have to enlighten me on THIS supplier???? Breguet? JLC?

Bruce


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## Lencoth (Apr 29, 2008)

Nalu said:


> These days, almost everyone performs chemical bluing which gives a lighter color. Only one supplier that I know of does the heat bluing for hands and the process is expensive.


Universo?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Lencoth said:


> Universo?


Of course Universo = 1 A quality

As far as I know Schär can do too.


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## Lencoth (Apr 29, 2008)

stuffler said:


> Of course Universo = 1 A quality
> 
> As far as I know Schär can do too.


Was not really aware about Schär.


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

I am warming up to the black hands, as the blueing process is probably out of the price range to provide the entire package within a reasonable cost. While I like blue, do I really want blue-colored hands, rather than "blued" hands? Then what about the crystal, the caseback, the movement, and the strap, should they all appear as duplicates of the original? In my opinion, Laco's need not, as these watches are true continuations of the original and are originals in their own sense. If Laco offered some options, as they have done with the side case engraving, great, but I am enjoying the modern interpretations of these watches.

vincesf


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

vincesf said:


> I am warming up to the black hands, as the blueing process is probably out of the price range to provide the entire package within a reasonable cost. While I like blue, do I really want blue-colored hands, rather than "blued" hands? Then what about the crystal, the caseback, the movement, and the strap, should they all appear as duplicates of the original? In my opinion, Laco's need not, as these watches are true continuations of the original and are originals in their own sense. If Laco offered some options, as they have done with the side case engraving, great, but I am enjoying the modern interpretations of these watches.
> 
> vincesf


Just saw this pic from The Purists... photo by Marc ( Cap )... love the vintage Type B


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Of course Universo = 1 A quality
> 
> As far as I know Schär can do too.


I was referring to Universo, did not know about Schär - thanks Mike.


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## EZM1 (May 28, 2009)

The agony of waiting. Another week or so, hopefully, till the my Type B is ready. 

Vince, I see that your Type A is on the block. I'm guessin it was just too much to have two 55mm watches. Then again I'm really toying with the idea of getting the Type A as well. Knowing I could probably get yours onto my wrist sooner then the Type B I ordered, is really testing my patience.

o|o|o|o|


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

EZM1 said:


> The agony of waiting. Another week or so, hopefully, till the my Type B is ready.
> 
> Vince, I see that your Type A is on the block. I'm guessin it was just too much to have two 55mm watches. Then again I'm really toying with the idea of getting the Type A as well. Knowing I could probably get yours onto my wrist sooner then the Type B I ordered, is really testing my patience.
> 
> o|o|o|o|


My Type B is ETA May 28th!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Way (Jan 26, 2010)

After waiting just over three months (ordered on February 21), I just received the FedEx notice that my B is shipped and will arrive in two days (May 28).


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## vincesf (Jun 8, 2009)

Bruce-YVR said:


> My Type B is ETA May 28th!!!!!!!!!!!!


I purchased something else and thought it was a bit much to have both the A & B. I would be willing to sell either really, but would like to keep one.

vincesf


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

vincesf said:


> I purchased something else and thought it was a bit much to have both the A & B. I would be willing to sell either really, but would like to keep one.
> 
> vincesf


What did ya get "something else" ?? 

i got a LW 3 Timer coming in a few months 

Bruce


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## Way (Jan 26, 2010)

The "B" arrived to day, one day earlier than expected. Very big but nice - need to wear it over my jacket sleeve.


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

Way said:


> The "B" arrived to day, one day earlier than expected. Very big but nice - need to wear it over my jacket sleeve.


My B arrived yesterday too.... initial reaction.. it is a beauty... however... after close inspection... my Type B has some issues that needs to go back to Laco :-(

It is frustrating and Laco shouldnt have send out my watch without going thru proper QC. Will talk to Peter to get this sorted out...

Bruce


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## EZM1 (May 28, 2009)

Bruce-YVR said:


> My B arrived yesterday too.... initial reaction.. it is a beauty... however... after close inspection... my Type B has some issues that needs to go back to Laco :-(....
> 
> Bruce


Bruce, what are the issues? My B is due in tomorrow, hoping its all good.

Dan


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

EZM1 said:


> Bruce, what are the issues? My B is due in tomorrow, hoping its all good.
> 
> Dan


Dan... got your B yet?? 

I miss my Type B already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## EZM1 (May 28, 2009)

Bruce-YVR said:


> Dan... got your B yet??
> 
> I miss my Type B already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah Baby! :-!

Will post pics soon. Camera battery needs charging.

Geez you've sent it off already, that wouldnt have been tough to go through.

She's a big one and I'm lovin it. Makes my vintage JLC pilot look like a dot.

I'm really tempted to pick up a Type A as well but with the prospect of a possible LE in 45 - 47mm this year I'm hesitating. The Type B, I think looks more suited to the 55mm dial. Looks fine on smaller dials but a little cluttered/cramp. The Type A in 45 - 47mm would be perfect.

Cheers

Dan


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## Lostmanifesto (May 29, 2010)

Where did u order from?


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## EZM1 (May 28, 2009)

Lostmanifesto said:


> Where did u order from?


From Laco. Its a must have watch IMHO. Great value :-!


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

Lostmanifesto said:


> Where did u order from?


Oh oh.... another Laco WIS 

Bruce


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## Bruce-YVR (Feb 12, 2006)

EZM1 said:


> Yeah Baby! :-!
> 
> Will post pics soon. Camera battery needs charging.
> 
> ...


Yep! I agree with ya... Get the Type A 45mm  its suppose to come out this year ( well.... its June already ) I suspect that this Type A 45mm has something to do with the new Laco website/ business formation??


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