# Fear not the lathe - let's make some swarf guys!



## The Guvnah

I've been staring at this cheap little 'Eaglemoss' US field watch lookalike for a week now mentally co-ordinating the processes needed to re-case it. Got it off the cover of a magazine for 3 quid mainly because I quite like the dial and it might make a decent donor for a design I've had stewing for the past year and not least because the khaki strap complemented the full lume dial of my old Aqualand very nicely.









the mists finally cleared with a quick AutoCAD session last night so this morning I thought I'd have at it. I thought I'd throw the pics up partly because I'd like to invite critique and suggestions but mainly because reading through some of the threads on this estimable forum (and particularly those in the Concepts & Designs board) I've been struck by the number of readers who bemoan their "lack of skills" when it comes to the actual fabrication of their dreams and ideas. It's a repeated theme. Even the casual readers and responders who stumble upon these "look what I just made" threads with no specific watch building aspirations commonly voice there wonderment at the work those metal munchers turn out from rough billet to glittering and unique... I'll say it again... UNIQUE timepieces. Some even admit they hold their manhoods cheap because they don't know one end of a lathe from the other. I want to offer this up as encouragement to those who doubt themselves or dread the financial costs and the thought of rotating machinery = physical injury and disfigurement.

Two years ago I was engaged in a project for which I was endlessly needing to source spacers, accurately bored bearing housings, accurate O ring lands and a hundred other bits and bobs on an I need it now! basis. Scouring the parts house catalogues is just a monstrous tedium and then there's the week/month long wait for it to arrive. Honestly I could train a rat to nibble it out of Delrin bar quicker! I mean how hard can it be to bloody make an inch long flanged spacer. In desperation I bit the bullet and punted £175 at an old post war Zyto lathe and gathered together some old tooling for it. Total cost so far £250 and when finally set and spinning I made the spacer in about an hour having never turned a handle since metal shop 30 years previously. I had however spent the time I would have spent poring over the RS catalogue reading the 'live steam' fora and sucked in their collective knowledge, tips and tricks like dry sponge. Ever wondered how they cut helical gears? There's got to be 30 youtoobs showing you how from light speed CNC to some old boy in his shed with an ancient camel-back drill clattering away in the background. It's all out there now, all that is required is the confidence to spend not very much and invest some time stretching one's limits. It's what we were put on this Earth to do after all and what we do best. So blokes & lasses (oh yes, you too!), cast those fears aside, gird thy loins and bristle thy courage up, let's cut some metal..... WOOOOAAARGGGGH!

Of course I could screw it up ...but I've got plenty of metal and a lot of coffee. 

So here's the victim gutted and ready for transplant surgery.









The basic concept is an aluminium bodied (construction site) chunk of circular form, lightly chamfered and possibly with articulated swing lugs. I've also got some 150 year old bronze plate that I'd like to incorporate somehow but we'll see how it goes. It'll get polished once on the lathe (another thing lathes excel at and another reason to buy one) and after that it will take its chances and show every scar. A proper beater in other words. For now I just want to turn a housing for this little Epson AL55A movement. I think they retail around £4 so that's the price of the mag paid for right there plus a free strap fer me Aqualand and I have to say I do like that mil dial. I was toying with scoring some ferric chloride and etching a piece of this plate for a dial. How the hell do you do that? Easy really... no mystery.

This was the finger plate off a Victorian village pub door in Worcestshire. A brilliant ebay score, I got two of these and the full door width kick plates for £30 quid. It's lovely stuff to work with, kin 'ard though. A dash of white spirit on the hacksaw blade really eases progress though.









I drilled a 1mm pilot hole roughly in the centre and stuck a conical "centre" in the tailstock and clamped it to a face plate ready to take the thicknessdown to a target 0.8mm thick. Sounds thin but this will still be nigh on unbendable.









Here it's worth mentioning that this lathe hasn't got any micrometer dials on it at all. You can't just 'dial in' a few thou, you have to go "old school" and rely on the good old dial indicator/gauge for all dimensional information. It forces you to think, this is a good thing as the golden rule of all fabrication skills is "measure twice - cut once". Setting up your indicators forces a valuable analytical think break and the opportunity for a mug o' technical tea. Also a good thing.









This gauge is marked in hundredths of a millimeter, one revolution of the needle tells you the plunger has moved 1mm so you can see how accurate it is possible to be given the patience. On my machine it's just about possible to split that hundredth! Amazing considering it was made in 1957, greased up and stashed in a shed for over fifty years and recently resurrected into my keeping hopefully for another fifty. And then the boys get it along with any knowledge I've managed to pass on to them. This is also 'a good thing' and another reason to buy one. 'elf 'n safety laws have seen metal working machinery all but banned from schools these days to the detriment of those qualities of ingenuity, creativity, lateral thinking (there's always a way...) and general manual skill.

The plate is 1.75mm thick and I want 0.8. I've clamped a bar to the cross slide and tapped it dead parallel to the faceplate/workpiece, the gauge is nudged forward and zeroed to read 10mm. So as I move the tool forward to cut the gauge will count off the 0.95mm I need to remove. I can also monitor the amount of 'feed' I put on the cut and limit it to no more than say 0.1mm per pass.









Pretty sure I can get within + or - 0.01mm which is as fine a resolution as I can expect. Let's apply some revs.









Nice curls of swarf and the musical swish of the bit as it cuts, also fifty odd years old btw. Once you read up on the basics of tool point shapes then you can sharpen them up with a few strokes on the wet stone or diamond lap things.









Something deeply satisfying about watching metal curl off and a form take shape. at an indicated 0.8mm I swapped bits and parted the dial blank out.









A quick spit 'n polish. Solvol Autosol works well for the level of finish I need at this point.









Bang on the target thickness, blimey, getting good at this!









Unfortunately I forgot to take any pics of turning up the casing blank, a mistake I shall probably get the chance to rectify when I cock up the lugging arrangements (still T.B.C.) but the dial is a beautifully close fit in the 34mm bore. It will make an excellent go/no go gauge for the next case.









I'm putting this dial blank aside for the moment till I can get to Maplins or suchlike to get the ferric chloride etchant. For detail work I'm thinking that etching could be a viable low impact alternative to CNC at this level. We shall see. I'll also need a design to etch of course. All suggestions welcome natch.

Some light machining later and we have a case blank,









I now need a movement spacer ring turned up to put the crown hopefully dead centre of the case at the 3 o'clock station.This went better than I thought it would.









...and parting off...









Wow, after some 1000 grit deburring it's practically a 'piston' fit. kudos to Mr. Zyto and a pat on the chuck for that one!









A view from the crystal side with the recess for the acrylic glass turned into the face side. Movement spacer just visible. I think I could have taken another 0.05mm out of the bore as the edge is a bit too visible for my liking. Measure twice - cut once of course.









At this stage I can drop the movement and its dial in to see what we've got taking shape.

















Well that gives the face a lot more depth, it's a completely different looking watch and I like where it's going. More tea needed and I'll pop the crystal in, also turned up on the face plate courtesy of (good quality) double sided tape.

















Yep, liking all of that so far. Tomorrow we drill for glory and the crown, well there will be much rejoicing if I nail this drilling for the stem and crown. I've found the technical drawings for this movement and it's telling me that the centre of the stem is exactly 0.8mm off the underside of the dial. Armed with that and a digital vernier and basic subtraction how hard can it be???

Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

Guvnah


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## PeterK.

Great work keep us posted.


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## Somewhere else

Great work! Only thing I should warn you about is that aluminum corrodes terribly when it comes into contact with the human body. Even making the bezel out of aluminum will still mean if you wear it a fair amount that corrosion will start immediately and relentlessly. You might think about plating your aluminum bezel just to protect it from sweat corrosion.


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## The Guvnah

PeterK. said:


> Great work keep us posted.


Certainly will Pete and thanks.



Somewhere else said:


> Great work! Only thing I should warn you about is that aluminum corrodes terribly when it comes into contact with the human body. Even making the bezel out of aluminum will still mean if you wear it a fair amount that corrosion will start immediately and relentlessly. You might think about plating your aluminum bezel just to protect it from sweat corrosion.


Thanks also S.E. and I totally hear what you're saying re corrosion and did think of playing with some anodising for rev:2. I'll get the chance to play with a full palette of colour options and it will dramatically increase the scratch resistance. As far as corrosion goes for this one it was concieved as a genuine 'Beater'. I'm going to leave it as is, bare naked ally fresh off the machine (I might not even polish out the machining marks) and let the years take their toll, a horological 'Picture of Dorian Gray' if you like! :-d

Fresh cut aluminium will oxidise within minutes from the moment it leaves the lathe and once that initial surface oxide layer is formed all further and deeper corrosion effectively ceases. Over the years it will further patinate down through progressively deeper shades of grey but I don't expect any of the frothing powdery ally-rot you see in alluminium exposed to say marine environments.

As a for instance; I've got an old 50yr old Allcocks Aerial centrepin fishing reel that has spent its life soaked in fish slime, river water, maggot juice, mud, snot, grot and god knows what else but there's not a spot of corrosion on it anywhere just that deep grey patination that only the passage of time can produce. The shine, if I do decide to polish it up, will have all but disappeared within a year and I'm good with that, s'all part of the conception mate.

So onto the drilling for the stem and crown.

I wasn't sure how interchangeable the stems are for these little quartz movements so the practical solution was to retain the existing one and fabricate a new crown into which the original stem can be screwed. By holding it in a pair of pliers over a small gas flame the heat softened up the adhesive/thread lock and the stem unscrewed easily enough but I couldn't save the 'O' ring which might have come in handy. Hey ho, not the end of the world.
Getting this hole out of place would be though so I spent a good half an hour double checking the maths and relative depths, making sure the drill is absolutely dead centre over the 3 o,clock station. I then dabbed it with a 5mm end mill to create a flat 1mm deep recess into which the crown can seat and also to stop the tiny pilot drill from skidding around a curved surface. It's a one-shot deal, if I screw it up the crown/stem will bind or miss the opening in the movement altogether and the case is scrap.

















et voila... I'll find out how accurate I've been in a while but it looks good so far...

























Just the stem to do. Couldn't find a piece of 6mm bar so had to turn it from 16mm stuff which was the next smallest I had lying about. Bit of a waste but taking all that waste off gives one the chance to nudge the bit angle and juggle the spindle speed to yield the best surface finish possible before you take the final finishing passes. The crown will be 4.9mm diameter to snug down into the 5mm recess with a bit of 'wiggle' room if required.

























Out of interest I also knocked up two pairs of bronze anti-magnetic tweezers from that same bronze stock after clocking the price of them new.:rodekaart









The stem is nominally threaded M0.9 according to the tech drawing and actually 0.87mm in diameter in reality so I ran a 0.8mm drill up the centre and filed the roughly cropped stem thread flat at the end and with a light taper to allow it to tap its own shallow thread in the crown as I twist it into the hole held in a pin chuck. I can then slowly 'creep up' on the perfect depth so that it engages the movement and sits just proud of the recess. And here's the result...

crown out in hacked position...









crown fully in...









and inside...









Overall I think it has potential. Well I'd wear it anyway.

















So now I have to put some thought to the case back and lugging. Threaded case back or screw fixed plate and what material? Another slice of antique bronze maybe. A threaded case back in dissimilar metals might actually invite galvanic corrosion and sieze particularly given the fine thread needed. I've also never cut a thread that fine and would need to grind up a specific lathe bit to form the thread. Time for a technical tea break methinks.

Guv


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## mutemode

Awesome stuff! I don't know much about machining or metal working but I'm fascinated by it. Thanks for sharing and I can't wait to see the final result.


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## Somewhere else

Not bad! Not bad at all! Can't wait for the next episode!


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## The Guvnah

mutemode said:


> Awesome stuff! I don't know much about machining or metal working but I'm fascinated by it. Thanks for sharing and I can't wait to see the final result.


Neither did I until about2 1/2 years ago Mute; bit odd really considering I've been around machine tools most of my working life as an industrial/commercial spark (electrician) fixing the things but never actually turned a wheel in order to make anything.

Turn that fascination into satisfaction mate is the sum of my advice. A few evening's reading the home shop fora gave me enough knowledge to understand what I needed as far as size was concerned. (I've got ridiculously limited space with two young lads) Another few days reading and I new what to look for as regards servicability and the importance of grabbing something with as much of the basic tooling you'd need to hit the floor running.Once purchased a few more google sessions will see you able to set it up, get things repeatably square and centred, use the micrometer dials or dial gauges to hit preset dimensions. You then begin to spot the quirks of your machine, its backlash and runouts etc and how to compensate for them. At that point you can allow your creativity to enter stage left.

I'll admit I went in at the deep end with a lathe that had no micrometer dials but that was a deliberate decision to go old school to force me to use the gauges plus I do like the "clack" of the belt on the drive pulleys. Works like an audio tachometer and harks pleasantly back to earlier times. It also gave me a crash course in lathe maintenance and stripdown because the guy had mis-assembled the whole spindle and I ended up having to basically strip the whole headstock down to get thrust washers, lock rings et al back in their correct order. but the result is I know the thing inside out and also managed to tickle the total chuck runout down to about "0.001 which is pretty damned good by modern standards. It's endlessly fascinating and a never ending learning opportunity. The boys think it's pretty amazing too.


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## The Guvnah

Somewhere else said:


> Not bad! Not bad at all! Can't wait for the next episode!


Much obliged S.E. Well this week I'll throw some hours into sketching and CADding out some lug ideas. Just don't want it to start looking too 'steam-punk'!


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## Magura

Nice.

Don't forget to make allowance for the anodizing.


Magura


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## andrewchrysovitsinos

Very impressed, I am.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> Nice.
> 
> Don't forget to make allowance for the anodizing.
> 
> Magura


Thanks for that Magura, "nice" is compliment enough!

:-!

Anodising has been on the back burner since this was conceived (something in a deep 'midnight' blue I was thinking) and a bit of reading up on the process (both commercial and DIY rigs) tells me that I can expect dimensional increases in the order of 10 - 25 microns, not much, and my machinery won't hold those sort of tolerances anyway. A few strokes of 1000 grit paper will probably remove that from aluminium.


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## The Guvnah

andrewchrysovitsinos said:


> Very impressed, I am.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


Cheers Andrew, have to say I impressed myself! :-d

I'm just in process of lathing up the case back rev.1 so I should have a few more pics tomorrow of progress thus far. The plan is to incorporate _at least _one 'O' ring seal on the case back and probably two. Eventually I will install a screwed crown to match the ingress protection of the back. A mate of mine services and tests scuba regs and cylinders and has plenty of high pressure kit to deploy on the final assembled casing so hopefully I'll be able to take it down to 200mtr in his wet testing pot. Or just keep pumping till it fails? :-s


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## Magura

The Guvnah said:


> Thanks for that Magura, "nice" is compliment enough!
> 
> :-!
> 
> Anodising has been on the back burner since this was conceived (something in a deep 'midnight' blue I was thinking) and a bit of reading up on the process (both commercial and DIY rigs) tells me that I can expect dimensional increases in the order of 10 - 25 microns, not much, and my machinery won't hold those sort of tolerances anyway. A few strokes of 1000 grit paper will probably remove that from aluminium.


I think you'd be surprised by the tolerances the lathe is able to hold. With all due respect, it's mostly the operator that has the tolerance limitation. ;-)
0.02mm is a fair bit, if in the wrong end of a tolerance, and you actually need to spend quite some time even with grit 600 to remove that much.

DIY anodizing is fairly simple, but takes a bit of trial and error to get perfect. For something like a watch case I'd go commercial though, as it is possible to find anodizing shops that offers UV resistant dye.

Magura


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## Arie Kabaalstra

I have made an Aluminium Watchcase myself a while ago.. and i had it anodised..










Gives a real nice satin finish.. ( and.. you can see my signature case finish here as well.. the ray pattern )

This thread is like reading my own threads.. it's like "ok.. i have an idea.. lets fire up the machines!".


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> I think you'd be surprised by the tolerances the lathe is able to hold. With all due respect, it's mostly the operator that has the tolerance limitation. ;-)


Ain't that the truth? :-!



Magura said:


> 0.02mm is a fair bit, if in the wrong end of a tolerance,


Sorry; misplaced the decimal there. 20 microns works out at :-
0,000039"
x 20
= 0.00078" ...which is just under a thou. so yes you're right Magura, that can be a significant amount depending on the part involved. I've got an idea where this degree of precision might well be required as you'll see in the next post.



Magura said:


> DIY anodizing is fairly simple, but takes a bit of trial and error to get perfect. For something like a watch case I'd go commercial though, as it is possible to find anodizing shops that offers UV resistant dye.
> 
> Magura


Agreed, the DIY route is something for more leisured investigation and I wouldn't want to add another process into the chain just yet particularly given that it will be experimental in nature. I want it done, dusted, degreased and on the wrist.


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> I have made an Aluminium Watchcase myself a while ago.. and i had it anodised..
> 
> Gives a real nice satin finish.. ( and.. you can see my signature case finish here as well.. the ray pattern )


Thanks for dropping by Arie. :-!

I'm a regular visitor to your "Instrument 2" thread chap and much admire what you've done. I particularly love that first wrist shot photo of the deep purple dial on your Instrument 1 and I'm an huge fan of your 'seconds' hand design. Plus it was your Dad's watch that you've put back into service in his memory and who can fault that admirable motive?
Not tried making hands yet myself but fully intend to have a crack at it on version two which will have an etched bronze dial. I don't have the correct set of files to fabricate hands manually so I'm thinking of electrolyticaly etching them. As it's a "line of sight" process it should remove any chance of undercutting the edges as would happen with straight chemical etching.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> This thread is like reading my own threads.. it's like "ok.. i have an idea.. lets fire up the machines!".


You got that right Arie, Way too easy to over think things sometimes. I always do a basic CAD drawing to establish the overall dimensions and the functionally critical ones but from that point on the drawing develops alongside the evolution of the physical part. A 3D solid model can be orbited, rendered etc but it just doesn't compare to having the real thing in your hand I find.


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## The Guvnah

And so to the case back...

I'm approaching this empirically, I will probably end up incorporating the springbar/lugging arrangement into a hefty case back of around 4mm thickness. I really don't want to interupt the circularity of the case with lugs unless I can come up with a design for some swinging lugs good enough to warrant the additional effort. For now I'm going to turn up what is effectively a very basic 'top hat' form which will be be secured by 6 x M2.5 Torx screws. I was going to inset two bands of bronze around the case and form the ends into lugs but lack of a rotary table has scuppered that idea for now.

Nuts! run out of sawn off cuts, going to have to part off a chunk of 51mm billet the hard way. Parting off on a small lathe is always a bit of a bum clenching experience I've found and can put a lot of strain on a light machine if/when it jams up,...which it will. Another plus point for the old belt drive is that I've set the drive belt quite slack on the pulley so if the cut digs in it will instantly unship its belt from the pulley and remove all drive to the spindle. So with no parting off bit we have to bring out the artillery...









Yep, it's a cheap 'hard-point' throw away quality utility saw but the teeth are hardened and tempered such that it will have no problems taking a bite out of aluminium stock. This could take a while but I need to get at least a half inch in before I go at it with the back up weapon. Note the use of regular sloshes of white spirit on the blade, it helps a lot with chip clearance as aluminium is an infuriatingly 'sticky' metal and will clog the teeth in seconds otherwise.

N.B. I'm not going to recommend this method to anyone but I do this with the chuck revolving at about 50-75 rpm. I've got a pretty good 'feel' for these sorts of things and so long as you're properly braced into the work, light on the pressure you apply and keep the blade lubed with spirit then it's a relatively gentle and controllable way of getting the job done. Sawing away with the chuck stationary will impart a very wearing force on my lovely bronze headstock bearings and is something I wouldn't do for the sake of the machine. You soon get the feel for when the teeth are biting properly and when your angle of approach threatens to jam in the cut.









Half an inch depth of cut accomplished after about 20 minutes so time to switch to an unlikely tool, the piercing saw. They look way to delicate for such a task but as I said it's actually quite a gentle process and with a coarse blade it really rips into the stock!









Here's the blank about 20mm thick chucked up and ready to be faced of and have a 5mm deep step cut in it which will form the stub to be held in the chuck and upon which the rest of the case back will be machined.









The case back will extend 4mm into the case in order to house a 1mm 'O' ring and have a recess cut into the inside face to allow it to clear the movement.

















That'll do for today but harking back to the topic of dimensional tolerancing I've had an idea to inset a disc of bronze into the case back to carry either design and/or text and thought I'd play with shrink fitting it rather than use adhesives or a simple press fit which doesn't go well in ally as it tends to throw a curl of metal in front of the pressed part which can prevent proper seating. So it seemed a no-brainer to take advantage of aluminium's larger thermal expansion coefficient.

I turned a disc of bronze to 20.01mm and found a bit of scrap into which I turned a recess of 19.97mm with the aid of a plug turned to that diameter as a go/no go guage. I then placed that onto the gas hob over a low flame and left it for 10 minutes to heat through. I then dropped the disc into the recess and let it cool for five minutes before quenching it off under the tap. The result was absolutely rock solid and immovable and definitely secure enough to be able to turn the whole thing in the lathe with no sign of slipping whatsoever. I was mightily chuffed and it could be an alternative to shellac and cup chucks for holding flat work?

Here's the results...

































What do you think folks?

Guv


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## Magura

It's a nice way of clamping pieces. It's been used to clamp end mills for quite a few years by now.
Just watch out, as you may also heat the whole setup by working on the piece, and loosen your workpiece by accident.

As long as things are reasonably cold, it's great.
If you machine claws for your chuck that fits a standard crimp piece diameter, things gets real easy.
I use a similar approach a lot, especially if you need to make more than one, and need to turn the workpiece around.

Rotating workpiece and a handheld saw in engagement, that's the highway to very serious bodily harm.
Are you sure you really, you know really really, wanna continue that practice? ;-)


Magura


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> It's a nice way of clamping pieces. It's been used to clamp end mills for quite a few years by now.


I did not know that M. but I can fully see how it would clamp very effectively onto an end mill.



Magura said:


> Just watch out, as you may also heat the whole setup by working on the piece, and loosen your workpiece by accident.
> As long as things are reasonably cold, it's great.


No worries there Magura, I work slowly and am constantly checking dimensions as I go which gives it plenty of time to cool between passes and my little Zyto isn't ever going to be able to taking 2mm passes off anything including dellrin! It's a fair point though and one which saw me discard double sided tape for anything that required prolonged machining. It's OK for taking a few light skims but if the temperature creeps above a certain point (not even hot to the touch) the adhesive immediately lets go. :roll: I was also surprised by the extent of the thermal expansion that even a 2" cylinder of aluminium yields. I was ready with a hammer and a soft ally drift thinking I'd only achieve half a thou clearance if that and have to drive it onto its land but it slipped into the recess with a couple of thou to play with!! |> That of course will be something to bear in mind but I'm thinking in this case that when the tool hits it the bronze its own thermal expansion will lock it even tighter until that point is reached when the temperatures of the aluminium substrate reaches equilibrium with that of the bronze insert that's being machined. At that point the differentials in relative expansion rates will see the aluminium expanding _faster_ and therefore the bronze insert getting progressively looser. Does that sound correct?



Magura said:


> If you machine claws for your chuck that fits a standard crimp piece diameter, things gets real easy.
> I use a similar approach a lot, especially if you need to make more than one, and need to turn the workpiece around.


I think I see what you mean, got a picture of said set up M?



Magura said:


> Rotating workpiece and a handheld saw in engagement, that's the highway to very serious bodily harm.
> Are you sure you really, you know really really, wanna continue that practice? ;-)
> 
> Magura


Yep; pretty sure but only because "...needs must as the Devil drives..." I just don't have a mechsaw, I really wish I did, believe me by the time you've cut 5 of these buggers you know you've done a morning's work. I just don't have the space for it. I really don't. If you saw the size of my workspace you'd point and laugh! :-d...:roll:...:-(...o| I totally hear what you're saying though. Like I said in the post, I couldn't and wouldn't recommend this method to anyone. It's not big and it's not clever.
On my side I've spent 30+ years handling heavy plant and hand tools as a construction site elec foreman and still have all limbs and digits and well used to the ferocious kick back that powered tools can deliver and the speed at which they can do so. I am pretty risk averse generally speaking and do weigh things up quite rigorously before engaging in an activity. My years as a SCUBA instructor only reinforced that trait.
Honestly it's not as dangerous as it appears in pixels. It's rotating at less than a rev/second, the belt is set loose and that saw has a very wide set to its teeth giving plenty of clearance in the slot. There's plenty of time to lift the blade if it pinches. I've even tried cutting upwards from below the stock thinking that that would further reduce the chance of a snatch and even though this reversed the teeth it still works albeit a little slower and with no less tendancy to grab than when done from above, if anything it was less controllable.

I even toyed with making up a lathe mounted and driven reciprocating saw that could be bolted to the cross slide but opinion on their effectiveness was not convincing to go to all that trouble. So for now this will have to do.


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## The Guvnah

OK, ever onwards. Picking up with the case back interior machined I then flipped it round to machine off the stub and take the thickness of the case back down to a nominal 4mm to give me plenty of design options for the lugging which as I see it will be the trickiest part to get right mechanically and aesthetically.









Cock on! A quick buffing out of machine marks with wet (white spirit again) 1200 grit paper gives me something to hold and contemplate.









The interior will get its spit 'n polish later...









But at least now I can get a feel for its size. Case and back meet for the first time.









Blimey! As it sits on the desk now it measures 18.1mm thick which makes it a bit of a 'puck'. Sitting it on the wrist and for some reason it doesn't seem to 'wear' that large. I'm hoping to echo the chamfering of the face onto the case back which will mitigate the apparant illusion of depth significantly... I hope. I could easily lose 2mm off the thickness by removing the dial spacer but I'm not sure I want to actually. As ever we shall see.

The plain cylindrical crown looked good but was a little tricky to grasp so I decided to incorporate a smidgen of that antique bronze into the crown to provide a finger grip. I fished a small offcut out of the swarf and centred it up on the face plate, drilled it to 2.5mm with a 3.5mm recess to take a dressed Torx screw.









I then and parted out a disc about 7mm diameter and mounted it on a quickly turned up mini mandrel to dress it down to about 6mm.

















OK it's just an idea so far but it certainly makes setting a cinch, I even tried it with gloves on. I stopped at 6.25mm which was the point at which it both looked and 'felt' right.









I think it's standing out a little too far but I like what it does to the look of the case. I think I shall be taking the time to introduce a little more CUSn into the mix because there are still the lugs to resolve and many ways to achieve them.









Liking it more and more actually...









T.T.F.N.

the Guv.


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## The Guvnah

pfffffffftt! Phew, OK, I think I have a definite(ish) route down which I want to go with the lugging arrangement. much thought and lager has been consumed in the decision making process but I think I have finally got a design that is strong, not too 'shonky' and most importantly is actually machinable with the limited resources I have to hand.

I had a good look at the implementation on the Halios 'Puck' as it's essentially of the same basic form (a hefty round chunk!)









..but to my eye it takes too big a bite out of the profile of the watch...









Xetum also employ a similar strap fitting recess but they manage a much more elegant result...









Nice but I'd prefer at least 6 screws in the case back and a good bit bigger than the 4off M1.5 (?) screws on the Tyndall above. I don't have a 1.5mm tap anyway and seeing as it will be tapping into alloy I want to go no smaller than 2.5mm ideally to keep some strength in the thread.

I also thought about essentialy 'carving' some lug bars as discrete components to be screwed onto the case. Something visually along the lines of this Montblanc with push button releases or those otherwise unmachinable :think: Linde Werdelin cases...









...but that really would be pushing my envelope.

I also thought about pocket watch type T-bar lugs as employed by Chopard and the like which might be pretty easy to replicate...









...but might start to tilt it in the direction of the punked steam enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that per se but not what I want for The Guvnah.

Then I cast my gaze upon the autozilla implementation using 'adaptors'...









...which are very tempting but completely out of the question without some properly accurate indexing rotary table capability, ...which I don't have of course, ...damn, I like these... but hold on a mo'... if I just...

I thuink a bit more and this is where it led me. Now these I can make.









4mm thick, made from more old bronze from a not quite so ancient vertical milling slide, functional, not too 'punk' and thankfully simple to fabricate; well compared to a pair of Bulove type swing lugs they are! I don't really want to use spring bars, as an alternative I intend to utilise a 24mm length of 2.4mm silicon bronze rod internally tapped M2 at each end and fixed between the lugs with screws. Hmmm... think,think,think... :-! I wonder... if I widened that lug to 5 or even 6mm could I incorporate that quick-release mechanism into them. Something like a pair of 'chrono pusher' sized buttons on the outside of each lug that will compress a spring bar just enough to be able to unship it?

In two minds whether to individually fix these lug brackets into the case upper with seperate screws from below or have them slide onto dowel pins set into the case to be then sandwiched in place by the case back.

I think a mock up in ally is the way forward this afternoon to prove the concept, dunno about the QR... give me a week!

Thanks in andvance for all your comments;

The Guvnah


----------



## Magura

That's a nice and fairly easily machinable choice.
I'd sure go for screws, as it allows for way bigger tolerances, but esthetically it's the same result.


Magura


----------



## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> I'd sure go for screws, as it allows for way bigger tolerances, but esthetically it's the same result.
> 
> Magura


Fair comment and a screwed fixing removes any chance of play/wiggle if those tolerances aren't met.

After a few enjoyable hours of light sawing and even lighter filing I now have a usable prototype lug. :-!

This is mostly a check on machinability and to see just how well I could turn out a finished piece before committing it to bronze. Unfortunately the only bit of 4mm plate to hand was a casting that formed the 3/16" cover plate of a 1950s industrial floor polisher and frankly the casting is bloody awful stuff; brittle, 'crumbly' and full of tiny voids and inclusions but it will serve for this job. I might even try a dab of polish on it!

First step is to mark out and drill the two holes while there's still plenty of plate to grip, one for the screwbar and the other drilled at right angles to fix it into the case.









Centering the vertical hole was a swine because the target was smack bang on top of one of those inclusions which threw it a few thou off centre. I'll have to lay in a stock of 1-2mm end mills... stat!

Once drilled it's time to release it from the plate, God this stuff is soft, Mazak alloy maybe?









Into the mini vice (also made by m' good self) and after half an hour of juducious filing under the magnifier we have progress...









Hey that's not too shabby, manual skills rock!









Sod it, that deserves its bit of grit 'n polish... 1000 grit to start with.









And the trusty Solvol Autosol, I'm not going to waste much time on this.









And here's the end product...

















Tomorrow's job is to mill out the recess into which they'll sit.

T.T.F.N.

Guv.


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## Djk949

Fantastic work. Love seeing this come together.


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## lorsban

It's a dream of mine to fabricate watch cases and parts and seeing it done here just amazes me. 

Well done sir! Can't wait for the finished product.


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## The Guvnah

Djk949 said:


> Fantastic work. Love seeing this come together.


Thanks for the encouraging words DJK, it helps . As you might have gathered the lugging was the part that I knew I'd have the most difficulty with but once the design was settled it was fairly straight forward. Now that issue has been nailed down I reckon I'll have a wearable piece in about a month from now. Then it's a question of engineering in some ingress protection around the crown and crystal.


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## The Guvnah

lorsban said:


> It's a dream of mine to fabricate watch cases and parts and seeing it done here just amazes me.


Dream no longer Lorsban, this scale of work can be handled by smaller machines than mine that will still turn out acceptable accuracy. I guess 500 quid or thereabouts will enable you hit the floor running. From a standing start it's taken me maybe two, two and a half, years to get to this stage. Looking at the gears in a watch movement one cannot be less than amazed at the intricacy and accuracy required and wondering "how the hell do you make something that small? Where do you even start? But once you've seen a few videos of, for instance, a rose engine in action or the bazillion ways to find a centre and set up and clamp a workpiece then all the mental cogs start to align. So you try it. You fail. you adjust your technique or track it down to a misalignment of the machine, it's all what's called "experience" and the only wasted time is that from which we do not learn.
Hey after all, a hundred or so years ago they did this stuff by candlelight so surely we can do it too.



lorsban said:


> Well done sir! Can't wait for the finished product.


Neither can I, mostly because I can then set about trying to improve it :-! Thanks for dropping by L.


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## lorsban

The Guvnah said:


> Dream no longer Lorsban, this scale of work can be handled by smaller machines than mine that will still turn out acceptable accuracy. I guess 500 quid or thereabouts will enable you hit the floor running. .


500??? I always thought it would be in the range of a couple thousand.

Anyway, I'm not quite at that level. Right now I'm looking into modding or making my own end links for my watches.

I need something that can cut/shape metal. And drill precise holes in the pieces I had just cut.

I also need a way to bond metal pieces together solidly. Is there some kind of micro-welding or is it just glue?


----------



## The Guvnah

lorsban said:


> 500??? I always thought it would be in the range of a couple thousand.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not quite at that level. Right now I'm looking into modding or making my own end links for my watches.
> 
> I need something that can cut/shape metal. And drill precise holes in the pieces I had just cut.
> 
> I also need a way to bond metal pieces together solidly. Is there some kind of micro-welding or is it just glue?


It'd be quite easy to shell out a few thousand, if you had it to spare that is! a nice Smart & Brown toolroom capstan lathe _would_ be nice. I didn't have that luxury but if I did then I wouldn't baulk at spending that much on some real quality kit. As with most things in life, and machine tools particularly, you get what you pay for and accuracy requires that a skilled toolmaker spends hours of his expensive hard won skill hand scraping slideways, dovetails, mating faces and bearings to within fractions of a thou'. Hand scraping is incredibly tedious and painstaking work but it's the price that must be paid for extreme accuracy, reliable repeatability and machine longevity, and that's why Cowells lathes etc. command the prices they charge. That said it also imparts a fantastic finish to the part that retains a micro film of oil and balances the cutting forces across the full bed of the miller/lathe. A hand scraped finish screams "quality" and just looks fabulous to my eye, even more so when you know why it's been done and the effort that went into producing it.

Accuracy usually goes hand in hand with mass but who's got space for a 20 ton S.I.P. jig borer in their spare room? Notwithstanding all the above I've seen plenty of remarkably fine and detailed work turned up on things like the little Taig lathe or the Emco Unimat which really are true 'bench-top' machines and totally capable of doing the kind of work you're contemplating.

£500 on the Bay should be plenty to secure a really clean lightly used example along with the boat load of accessories that make a big difference in the range of operations that you could undertake. You're looking for things like: a vertical milling slide, a handful of dividing plates for laying out holes and features at precise angular intervals, fixed and 'travelling' steadies for turning bar lengths to diameter. For that money you'll invariably get a couple of chucks (3jaw and 4jaw) plus a face plate and the clamps to hold workpieces thereto and a handful of odds and sods, bits, slitting saws, odd arbors, boring bars, conical and live centres et al. They'll often come with a set of change-gears too so you can start experimenting with cutting threads in stuff. Hey for £500 you might even get lucky and score one with the vertical miller attachment included and the wooden case for it all then you'd really hit the floor running. Get a stout bench to mount it on (mine isn't!) and level it (mine isn't!), plug it in and away you go! :-!

As for bonding and joining, that's a book in itself.

Sit. Rep.

Bit of an hiatus in proceedings. At 4:30am Sunday morning I had to rush my youngest lad (6) to A&E with what I suspected to be an acute appendicitis, turns out it had actually preforated. Not good, not good at all so I've had about 5 hours kip in the last 60.o|
The good news - 2 hours in surgery and 36 hours later and without a single tear, fear or word of complaint he's now playing Wii boxing with his bro!!! What a trooper.  Incredible how kids can bounce from something like that.


----------



## Somewhere else

Glad to hear your son is OK! Best wishes!


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## lorsban

My wife was operated for the same reason a few years ago. Glad your son is ok.


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## The Guvnah

Thanks S.E. and thanks Lorsban, yep he's good to go! Scary though, and at that age? I thought it only ever became a potentiality from late teens and on and very exceptional at his young age? Right then; back to the miller!


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## Arie Kabaalstra

Nice handywork sofar.. i forgot to check back here for a while.. but that's because i'm in the middle of a very important process.. actually starting my business..

i've got the luxury of these machines in my workshop..










and..










i just love CNC machines.. :-d


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Nice handywork sofar..


Thanks Arie but I'm not just not happy with that last idea of a bolt on bracket lug so I've spent a week putting some hard thought to those swing lugs.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> i forgot to check back here for a while.. but that's because i'm in the middle of a very important process.. actually starting my business..


:-! & b-) I'll have my fingers crossed for you fellah.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> i've got the luxury of these machines in my workshop..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i just love CNC machines.. :-d


 NICEY!
God help me but I'd ebay a kidney right now for a half decent indexing head/rotab! :-d

Right where were we? Oh yes. I now have a roughly fabricated 'bracket' lug hewn from some cruddy bit of 4mm cast ally plate but good enough to gauge the aesthetics.

















hmmmm...:think:









Naaaah not really there is it? I dont like the angularity of it. And all the while the idea of a nicely curved in swinging lug keeps nagging away at me.

"Guvnah, you know that's what you wanted in the first place but y' backed out of it because you thought it would be too difficult to machine!"

OK OK already! you win. For the benefit of my inner peace I need to fire up AutoCAD and spend a few more days in Flatland and see if I can come up with something that actually looks nice AND is machinable. So here it is...









Ah now that's more like it; this quick render is in aluminium but what would it look like in bronze I wonder?









I can't really get the right colour but I'm thinking it rather dominates the case (if that were even possible at this size?)









It's looking good from below the waterline though. I quite like that pink 'beryllium copper' tinge to the colour.

:think:

Out of the corner of my eye I see this on the fire surround...









One totally over-engineered, weapons grade solid BeCu egg cup turned from what must have once been the business end of an artillery round. I picked it up at a car boot sale 15 years ago and just love the colour that polished BeCu offers. But before I contemplate butchering one of my favourite knick-knacks I'll give it ago in aluminium.









Forget rose engine turning, how about 'Cotes de Coventry' striping! :roll:


----------



## Arie Kabaalstra

In place of an index table.. what about making a collet that chucks inside the case.. and bolt that onto a square piece of stock?..

I made this:










and i made a cone that fits inside.. when i bolt that onto the mill it looks like:










but... if you bolt that onto a piece of square stock... you could clamp it on its side.. and machine the lug-cavities..


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## Magura

A nice rotary table is not all that expensive anymore.
I bought a brand new one of decent quality, for like $400.


Magura


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> In place of an index table.. what about making a collet that chucks inside the case.. and bolt that onto a square piece of stock?..
> 
> I made this: and i made a cone that fits inside.. when i bolt that onto the mill it looks like:
> 
> View attachment 1553210
> 
> 
> but... if you bolt that onto a piece of square stock... you could clamp it on its side.. and machine the lug-cavities..


Yep, spotted that in your thread, an expanding mandrel, looks a good solid job if it can take 10,000 rpm! I like the idea of centring that on a bit of square/rectangular stock to give accurate 90, 180 and 270 degree indexing. I have attempted the same sort of thing before but using the 60 tooth thread cutting change wheel bolted to the face plate with a bit of tapered brass wedging the teeth to act as the indexing pin; it worked surprisingly well.









I then developed the idea a little by boring a length of 1 1/4" phos-bronze bar to fit a spindle. At one end of the spindle I mounted a workpiece holding arbor and on the other a change wheel. That was mounted to a piece of 8mm ally plate and fixed to a nice antique milling slide I'd scored on the Bay. The slide allowed me to feed the work into the milling cutter or fly-cutter.

















It did work with feather light cuts but the venerable milling slide wasn't really rigid enough for such adventures.


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> A nice rotary table is not all that expensive anymore.
> I bought a brand new one of decent quality, for like $400.
> 
> Magura


Well that's $400 bucks I don't have spare at the mo. o| The above devices did what was asked of them milling out the 'sectors' of a spoked centre pin reel spool and its anti-reverse ratchet. With no worm drive I had to turn it by hand with the travel limited by stops. I suppose I could reassemble it for this job but I've come up with a better solution of mounting the blank lug into a jig which is preceisely aligned, clamped and counterbalanced on the lathe's face plate. Here it is mounted on a 4" x 1/8" brass backplate ready to be clamped onto the plate such that I can then conventially turn the 100mm radius on each side of the lug.









With the sides radiussed it then goes under the mill to have the recesses cut and the drillings made. in theory that's the job done.


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## Arie Kabaalstra

About that Shell.. BeCu you say?.. if so.. do NOT use it.. BeCu is Toxic.. it's said to be carcinogenic even.. 

consider this.. the use of Beryllium and beryllium alloys is banned in Formula one.. but depleted uranium is used in planes for ballasting weights... 

i've made plenty of parts from BeCu.. turning?.. no problem, milling?.. no problem.. dry Sanding?.. FORBIDDEN.. Wet sanding?.. Well.. use a lot of water!

i'd go and find a nice piece of bronze instead of BeCu.. 
a BeCU egg Cup?.. i wouldn't eat an egg from that.. really i wouldn't..


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## Magura

I'm not entirely sure you're right.
Dry sanding and grinding is sure a no-go, but once the piece is done, I doubt it is posing any risk to touch.

Magura 

EDIT:

http://www.ngkmetals.com/index.cfm/m/19/speaking_out/#hazard

See "skin contact".


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## Arie Kabaalstra

Well. i don't want to take the risk.. if you like taking a risk.. this would be the watch for you:

Hublot Big Bang Atomic D-38 Watch Proves Your Manliness With Radioactive Uranium | aBlogtoWatch


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## Magura

I'm fairly sure the risk is not there, or most toolmakers would be having issues by now.
They handle that stuff all day long, with their bare hands.


Magura


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## Arie Kabaalstra

About that mandrel i made...

I also made a disc i can put on the spindle nose of my lathe.










I made it in the 3 jaw chuck, faced the front, and turned the recess in it to fit the spindle.. then drilled the holes for the 3 bolts.. put it on the spindle, and turned the outside cilindrical, faced the front, and turned the recess for the mandrel..

Later on, i chamfered the front, and milled some slots on the outside ( you could also use a knurling tool here..)



















And thus i can chuck a Caseblank on the lathe, perfectly centered and aligned.. 
I can Turn the backside and the inside in the 3 jaw chuck.. no need for precision at that stage.. when i'm done.. put on the disc, and a mandrel that fits inside..put on case, and machine the rest of it.

I also make these mandrels on the lathe,turning it to the correct diameters, parting it off, and then turning it around to turn the inside.. finally i put it on the mill to make the slots..

Quite easy to make, and it saves a lot of work..


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> About that Shell.. BeCu you say?.. if so.. do NOT use it.. BeCu is Toxic.. it's said to be carcinogenic even..
> 
> consider this.. the use of Beryllium and beryllium alloys is banned in Formula one.. but depleted uranium is used in planes for ballasting weights...
> 
> i've made plenty of parts from BeCu.. turning?.. no problem, milling?.. no problem.. dry Sanding?.. FORBIDDEN.. Wet sanding?.. Well.. use a lot of water!
> 
> i'd go and find a nice piece of bronze instead of BeCu..
> a BeCU egg Cup?.. i wouldn't eat an egg from that.. really i wouldn't..


Don't worry Arie, I knew what it was when I coughed up the 50p for it. As a spark I often encounter BeCu springs and contact strips in switches, relays cct breakers and contactors and having been an attentive schoolboy during chemistry class I knew that beryllium was to be treated with care & caution.

As Magura says its OK to turn the stuff and handling is perfectly safe; it's when particulates are generated of a size that can be aerosolised (is that even a word? - it is now) and inhaled or absorbed transdermally. Brazing and soldering would be a big no-no without fume extraction and filtering plant. I'd eat a boily eggo out of my egg cup no problem but I wouldn't be using a BeCu spoon that's fer sure. I haven't thus far only because modern eggs must be a good bit bigger than post-war hens could manage to lay because it wouldn't fit in it and also I didn't want to spoil that fabulous pink polish!

Oh and that chuck fixture - brilliant and beautifully done mate. b-) On the subject and off the top of my head I'll say that perhaps 10% of machine work is taken in the conception and design part, 10% is occupied by actual cutting time and the remaining 80% will be devoted to considerations around 'workholding'. Does that sound about right?


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## Arie Kabaalstra

Yes,, workholding and machining sequence is abuot 80-90% of the work.. i'm a toolmaker by profession, turning watchmaker by passion.. this sort of thing used to be my everyday job.. it's hard to lose the habit.. 

I made numerous fixtures.. even for laser welding.. some would work like the diafragm in a camera lens... holding up to 10 pieces together before welding them with the laser.. you should have seen those... ..

Compared to that.. this one was easy.. it takes me about an hour or so to make a new collet.. as they all share the same cone in the center..


----------



## Magura

Oh a fellow toolmaker, nice!
I somehow suspect watchmaking to attract old toolmakers, as much of the work is pretty similar. 
A couple of years ago I got a pocket watch, that was badly in need of service.
I read what I could about how that's done, and serviced it with full dis-assembly, cleaning and oiling by the book, with surprisingly little difficulty. It took me a couple of days though.

Back on topic, nice chuck fixture you've made yourself there. 


Magura


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## The Guvnah

*Hi all.

*So picking up where I left off; I now have a 34mm x 16mm x 5mm chunk of crappium faced off and ready to go into this jig...









This bugger took 3 days to make and set up but you just can't do things in a half arsed way if you want accuracy and safety, its through-bolted to the face plate rather than clamped to make sure it won't shift or come adrift. At 200rpm that jig will do some real damage to both man or machine should a clamp let go. the back plate is HDPE (high density polyethylene) I would have much prefeered to use delrin but I dont have any of sufficient size.
It took a good hour to indicate it all in but as I observed above three quarters of machining (of this ad hoc, developmental type anyway) is about working out and fabricating jigs, fixtures, arbors, mandrels, plug gauges, back plates, uniquely shaped clamps, endless bits to hold the widget that centres the whatnot on the doodad* o| *and only then can you start thinking about cutting the part, s'all good brain exercise though and very satisfying when it all works as it should.
So with all correctly aligned I brought the bit up to the part and inscribed a guideline arc with the tip of the tool. 









I always give the chuck a few rotations by hand before hitting the RUN button to make absolutely sure that nothing is going to crash the tool bit or that I haven't left the key in the chuck or a bolt or spanner on the lathe bed. The first rule of lathe club is;

NEVER, EVER LEAVE THE KEY IN THE CHUCK! :rodekaart

...even for a few seconds to reach under the bench, at some point you WILL forget it's there and punch the RUN button. With all centred and safe it's time to apply the rotations.









Forgot to mention that I dressed off most of the waste outside the inscribed arc with a warding file to knock the edge off thus lessening the harshness of the initial cuts. And half an hour later we have a radius...









Well that works perfectly and you can see how nasty the casting was with all the pits and inclusions, hey ho - let's have another go...









Totally happy with that and it should be plain sailing from here on as producing these radii was always going to be the trickiest part. Now I can mark out the final dimensions.









No fancy jigging needed here but I had to take a bit of a long winded approach to slotting these recesses. Due to the cumulative backlashes in this nasty 'Chindian' X-Y cross-slide vice I can't trust it to hold position if I feed a 3mm cutter in sideways to the required depth and then change the direction of feed to get the 24mm length, it will give a nasty kick which would cause the cutter to dig in and really make a mess of this butter soft alloy. So plan B involves mounting the blank vertically and coming in from above with a 3mm ball-nosed cutter, taking 5 thou passes _across_ the part to get to the target depth and then taking repeated passes as it I slowly feed it along the length a few thou at a time. This took about an hour but it was totally controllable as all the backlash is "behind" the direction of feed so it didn't jar the vice and allowed me to 'creep up' on the target 24mm with no chance of over-running. |>

























The pics are a bit out of sequence here but on the wider case side I got bored and removed most of the waste with the piercing saw to leave plenty of metal to clamp. I used the ball-nose to produce the corners and removed the bit in between with an end mill. I wasn't happy with the controllability of that and for the strap side recess Iswitched to running the ball-nosed cutter the whole length which although tedious did produce a superior finish and a more accurate end result.

















Nicey! A stretched "Honda" logo! :-! Some non-committal 2mm pilot holes in the side of the lug for the case fixings...









...and dot it with a 4mm cutter to recess the fixing screw...

a big smile for the camera please...









...but is it worth polishing?









Now then; what to do about the strap side??? I don't want to use conventional spring bars as I hate digging about with a springbar 'fork' tool. What I might do however is to set a 2mm or 2.5mm screw into each side with a 1mm centre drilling up the end of each screw to take the end of the springbar. To release the strap you just retract one or both of the screws a millimetre or so which releases the springbar.

Thanks for watching.


----------



## Magura

Looking good. 
You'd gain tool life and precision, if you used a coolant. 
For aluminum you can use alcohol, for most other materials a water/oil emulsion or pure oil (rapeseed oil for instance) is a good choice.


Magura


----------



## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> Looking good.
> You'd gain tool life and precision, if you used a coolant.
> For aluminum you can use alcohol, for most other materials a water/oil emulsion or pure oil (rapeseed oil for instance) is a good choice.
> 
> Magura


Tell me about it! If I could get away with flooding it with suds I would do it but it's not really possible in a small apartment. Sheesh, the missus would have a litter of bald kittens! I have to make do with rigorous use of a chip brush and white spirit as a brushed lubricant.

BTW Magura, are all those pictures showing up? All the others have uploaded and displayed butI can't see the first five.


----------



## The Guvnah

The Guvnah said:


> ...butI can't see the first five.


Re-attached pics - all good.


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## Magura

All pics showing correctly now. Before first couple of pics were requiring a click.
Try using alcohol. Unless you're dealing with steel, stainless steel, or titanium, it works rather well, and offers a lot less smell and mess than white spirits.
For cutting thread, Rocol is the word. A few drops of that stuff will do.
For cleaning things before and after polishing, an el-cheapo ultrasonic cleaner makes your life a lot easier as well. $30 will get you far in this regard.


Magura


----------



## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> All pics showing correctly now. Before first couple of pics were requiring a click.
> Try using alcohol. Unless you're dealing with steel, stainless steel, or titanium, it works rather well, and offers a lot less smell and mess than white spirits.


Have to give that a try, I must here offer up a tip of the hat to Mrs. guvnah for putting up with as much as she does.



Magura said:


> For cutting thread, Rocol is the word. A few drops of that stuff will do.


Probably a lot better than slide-way oil which is what I'm using at the moment. :-x



Magura said:


> For cleaning things before and after polishing, an el-cheapo ultrasonic cleaner makes your life a lot easier as well. $30 will get you far in this regard.
> 
> Magura


Ahead of you there M. I scored one of these for around £16 (half R.R.P.) when I first committed myself to opening up and repairing an old Mortima Super-Datomatic









Works a treat.


----------



## Magura

Ahh, so you're pretty much set in that regard.


Magura


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## Arie Kabaalstra

apart from fixin' doodads whit whatnots.. how did you fasten the doohickeys? did you use an old fashioned thingamajigg?.. 

Not having CNC equipment doesn't mean you can't do curved parts.. a point well proven here.. 

as for cooling and lubricating the cutting tool.. i use Lamp oil.. alcohol is for after the job, in the shape of a beer while enjoying the fruits of labour..or spending some qualitiy time with the missus.. forgot what that's like.. been single for the last couple of years.. that's why i have so much time to make watches..


----------



## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> apart from fixin' doodads whit whatnots.. how did you fasten the doohickeys? did you use an old fashioned thingamajigg?..


For doohickeys I always reach for the thingamajigs, if you don't have one to hand you can get good results with a watchamacallit. They sometimes come up on Ebay but make sure it's still got its thingy with it.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Not having CNC equipment doesn't mean you can't do curved parts.. a point well proven here..


I'll admit I was exceptionally chuffed with the end result and surprised myself at the things this very basic lathe will take on. Another pat on the chuck for that one. It does mean however that this jig will be tying up the faceplate for a week or two as I'm loath to remove it seeing as it took so long to dial it in. o|



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> ...as for cooling and lubricating the cutting tool.. i use Lamp oil.. alcohol is for after the job, in the shape of a beer while enjoying the fruits of labour..or spending some qualitiy time with the missus..


+1 :-x



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> forgot what that's like.. been single for the last couple of years.. that's why i have so much time to make watches..


...and that's why it's taking me so long! Honestly, don't knock single status mate, it's not all beer and skittles and roses round the door. Believe me if I had my way I'd be knocking out our hallway cupboard and shifting my proper miller into the flat! Then I could get a rotab and dividing head bolted onto that bad lad and really get some work d...... hold on Arie... the mem sahib's calling...

"Pardon? What's that petal?..."
"- - - - - - -?"
No dearest, I'm _not_ moving the mill into the hall; just thinking out loud...
"- - - - - - -?"
Well you've got your chuffing telescope set up in the bedroom! I crack my toe on that sodding thing every day...
"- - - - - - -!"
What do you mean your hair straighteners don't work, does the light come on?... alright bring 'em here I'll fix them... yes I can do it before I pick the boys up from school, I've got a few spare milliseconds... etc etc etc... yes daffodil I'll grab some milk on the way back...

...and so on and so forth... Luckily for me, as well as being utterly gorgeous, her dad was a very good precision engineer and she used to enjoy watching him for hours building live steam locos. She actually likes having the lathe here as it reminds her of him. b-) Wish he was still alive, he could have taught me so much that I've had to discover for myself. R.I.P. Jim.


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## Arie Kabaalstra

I laughed my butt off reading your last posting..:-d

how could i ever forget about watchamacallits... 
ain't English a great language?.. it might be not too obvious.. but i'm dutch, english is not my native tongue.. and one thing that really frustrates me: 

Why on earth, or anywhere else for that matter, are words like, doodad, whatnot, Thingamajigg watchamacallit and Doohickey not taught in school?.. i "picked up" thingamajigg from an episode of Dexters Laboratory..

Also Crappium, and Unobtainium are materials that only exist on english periodic tables...

on a more serious note.. if the missus lets you put her fathers machinery in the house, because it reminds her of her father.. stay with her!.. don't let go..
Recently, the father of a good friend of mine passed away, and i got his old lathe, a small one.. Emco Unimat SL.. use that puppy to make Tubes for watchcases.. the little tube a stem runs through..works really well..and.. that li'l lathe always is a reminder as to where it came from..


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> I laughed my butt off reading your last posting..:-d
> 
> how could i ever forget about watchamacallits...
> ain't English a great language?.. it might be not too obvious.. but i'm dutch, english is not my native tongue.. and one thing that really frustrates me:


well you could have fooled me! I think your English is excellent Arie. Big fan of the Dutch btw. |>



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Why on earth, or anywhere else for that matter are words like, doodad, whatnot, Thingamajigg watchamacallit and Doohickey not taught in school?....


Wish I knew and it's a matter of much concern to me; as well as being woefully miseducated children seem to be swamped with cultural influences that seek to denigrate and mock the correct use of language, an expansive vocabulary and good diction in favour of a bastardized semi-patois crossed with text-speak and all delivered in a grudging, apathetic ambivalent tone. I particularly dislike that hugely irritating widespread adoption of the 'rising interogative' inflexion whereby EVERY sentence terminates in a rising vocal pitch as though phrased as a question expecting a reply. God I hate that with a passion uncontested, I think it came into popular use with the appearance of Australian soap operas on British television. - - - - RANT ENDS :roll:



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Also Crappium, and Unobtainium are materials that only exist on english periodic tables...


:-d



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> on a more serious note.. if the missus lets you put her fathers machinery in the house, because it reminds her of her father.. stay with her!.. don't let go..


Well that's the plan Arie. Unfortunately this isn't her dad's machine, that's still in his workshop gathering dust as far as I know.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Recently, the father of a good friend of mine passed away, and i got his old lathe, a small one.. Emco Unimat SL.. use that puppy to make Tubes for watchcases.. the little tube a stem runs through..works really well..and.. that li'l lathe always is a reminder as to where it came from..


These things are extremely important in my view, although maintaining that continuum and connection with our forebears is nowadays viewed as almost a reactionary position. If that continuum is cast aside then we become rootless, a tabula rasa if you will and people might just as well be meat passing before us which is in large degree where we've arrived at the start of the 21st century.

Is there a "Random philosophical musings" thread on the forum? :think:


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## The Guvnah

Today's the day: this is the big one. Today sees the case and back joined in 'holey' matrimony, specifically 6 holes tapped at M2.5 to be precise and I also want to get those lug fixings finally milled and drilled. I've got 10 cigarettes on the shelf, plentiful stock of coffee is only ten feet away; the runes were good!

Regardless of my sense of urgency to get this bit done and dusted I'm resisting the urge to chuck the caseback in the machine and simply have at it. The lugs will cut into both the case and the case back so first they have to be solidly mated together before the whole thing gets milled. I'm going to do a trial run on a disc of acrylic first to prove the concept and assure good accuracy before committing to the actual case back. First thought was to use my 'ghetto' indexing table, it being ostensibly the quickest way of setting out and drilling these six case back fixing screws and countersinks.









This device started out as the cast iron backplate for a chuck. The stub at the back of it fits into a bored out block such that it rotates with minimal play and can then be locked tight by nipping up three radial screws. The whole thing then sits in the cross-slide vice for X-Y positioning under the driller. Around the edge of the table I drilled 60 x 1/8" holes. Into those holes I can place 1 inch steel/brass pins which are a tight, almost interference fit in the holes and which then butt up against a simple stop bar fixed to the side of the cross-slide vice's jaw. This allows simple quick 'n dirty indexing at 6deg (aka 1 minute mark) intervals. Good job I did the dummy run first (I actually went through 3 discs) as no matter how carefully I dialed it in with the gauge the end result just wasn't good enough such that you could screw the caseback down in any of the six available orientations which would have proved the concentricity of the holes.

Plan B (which I should have considered in the first instance) was to use the most accurate device I own i.e. the lathe and somehow add some indexing capability to it. An hour's rummaging in the gash bins and junk buckets yielded inspiration...









I dug out the 60 tooth changewheel and slid it onto the idler shaft of the screwcutting gear train. With the tumble reverse engaged it now rotates once for every one revolution of the chuck, all it needed was some way of wedging the gear every tenth tooth. This was achieved simply and rigidly enough by clanping a wedge of 3mm brass into my minivice and then clamping that to the changewheel bracket with a honking geet engineers clamp. I can now lock the chuck at 6 sixty degree intervals so long as I hold the chuck to take up all the backlash in the tumble mech and woodruff keys etc. Basically I'm relying on the accuracy of the guy who produced that 60tooth gear wheel over 70 years ago. Only one way to find out isn't there.

The plan is to .....-punch the six holes on a radius of 20.45mm using the needle point of the scriber from an equally old Moore and Wright scribing block set. This was held in a chunky brass electrical terminal block and aligned to a conical centre placed in the headstock's 1MT taper under a x10 loupe. I ran the tailstock up to the caseback and dotted the centre to give me a reference/datum for any further operations one of which will be insetting the bronze disc in the back









With the scriber on centre I then 'preloaded' the dial gauge to 20.45mm... Should have done a better close up of the gauge face maybe...









Apologies for the glarey photo... then by winding the cross-slide towards me until the dial reads zero I now know that the scribe point is exactly 20.45mm from the centre.









Moment of truth now because I won't be able to polish these marks out. I run the carriage up and 'dot' the caseback once only (don't want any inadvertant double punch marks to have to decide between! :-s )









Yep, I can work with that, five more then...









...those brass terminal blocks really are useful things to have in the gash bin! (as an aside; one of the great things about watch scale work is that there's no such thing as "scrap metal", the tiniest bits will find a use, even down to brass filings!)









And we're good to go... this will now go under the driller and positioned using these marks and the good ol' x10 loupe. Et viola...









...and from the front.. er.. the back.. the other side... you know what I mean...









To these tired and coffee raddled eyes that looks damned good. Another trip to the drill for the countersinks 4mm diam to a depth of exactly 1mm.

















Nicey! Exactly as planned. I don't have any transfer punches, (although I suppose I could at some point make some) so I had to resort to using the 2.5mm 'clearance' drill I used to make the holes. I clamped the back to the case and using the drilled holes for alignment I lightly 'dinked' the drill bit with a little chunk of steel to make a centre punch mark on the underside of the case. The bit was a tight fit in the holes so theoretically all should be de facto aligned. The qualifier there of course is the word "should".









In with the 2.06mm tapping drill to a depth of 10mm to make sure the 12mm long screws won't bottom out. As each hole was drilled I swapped out the drill bit for the 2.5mm tap and cut a few starter turns into the hole ready for hand tapping them to full depth later. By unshipping the drive belt to disconnect the resistive friction of the motor from the spindle a drill press makes an accurate tapping stand albeit a bit insensitive for such small taps, it would be way too easy to snap the tap off in the hole and scrap three weeks work. The starter turns will however ensure that the tap starts dead plumb when I come to hand-tapping them all the way down with the tap held in a small Albrecht keyless chuck. (it's a beautiful little chuck and grips a whole lot better than any cheap tap wrench you can name.)

Hand tapping is boring as hell and conducive to nothing else than carpal tunnel syndrome so I'll spare you the pics. I also had to dress down and otherwise spruce up the temp stainless steel slot head screws in the lathe with a needle file and 1000 grit to get a final head diameter of 3.9mm to fit the countersinks snugly but without displacing it when tightening down. So here it is...









yes yes yes I know they're not aligned! They will eventually be Torx and even I'm not that obsessive to attempt to align them.









You see, it's accumulating those 'hero scratches' already...:-!

Now for the main event, milling out the lug recesses. For this one I decided to do a trial run or mock-up via AutoCAD. I'd already built a very accurate solid model of my lathe's cross-slide, the machine vice and the reative centreline of the headstock/cutting tool so it seemed logical to throw the solid model of the case into that drawing and work out all the dimensions for packing spacers, offsets from datum and milling depths etc.









Now I know what i need to do to the nearest 1/100th of a mm. Whether I can reproduce the theory in metal remains to be seen.









That's a 5mm end mill inset 2.45mm from the edge of the case and set to drill to a depth of 5.75mm; the world loves an optimist :-d

OK no turning back now, One more technical tea break and TWO brave pills later I can't stall the moment of truth any longer... final check, everything tight, chuck's turning freely, no clashes... deep breath, buttocks clenched... GERTCHA!

















Now that looks just like the solid model did! That's perfect in fact. OK that's the ten o'clock recess done, three more needed at 8-2 and 4 o'clock.
Not forgetting to follow it in with the tapping drill (2.05mm) to recieve the lug screws without moving or nudging a thing.









That was pretty painless all considered. Three more then...









Confession time, when I flipped it round to do the other side I omitted to "tap down" the piece into the vice after the final tightening so the work was about 0.1mm too high, the cutter didn't quite take the full bite out of the caseback. Luckily I spotted the very slight difference in the cutting progress and pulled it back out, A quick tap with a hammer and beech wood block seated it firmly down onto the vice base and corrected my schoolboy error.

Final pic...









Phew! bit of an epic post there and thanks for sticking with it. I'm happy with that though particularly given the restricted facilities available. I swear I'm going to flog a guitar and invest in a GOOD rotab. Anyone fancy a mint 80's Yamaha Pacifica XII electric twelve string??? This coming week will be about finishing the nasty ally prototype lug off and sorting out the fixing thereof.

t.t.f.n.

Guv


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## Magura

Looks like you're gonna have a new watch in the nearest future.


Magura


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> Looks like you're gonna have a new watch in the nearest future.
> 
> Magura


I'm hoping for something on the wrist in about two weeks.


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## geodesigner

Hey Guvnah, enjoying the process! Looks amazing!

I'm an industrial designer toying with the idea of creating watches, but so far I'm just sketching, modeling and 3D printing. Maybe I'll try some machining on the university's shop. Greetings from Brazil!


----------



## The Guvnah

geodesigner said:


> Hey Guvnah, enjoying the process! Looks amazing!


Hi there Geo-D, glad you've dropped by and thanks for the comment, yeah it does have a cetain "presence" in fact I think I may have overstepped the bounds of wearability a little with this one but what the hell I like big watches but this bad lad is even bigger than the Halios "Puck" and by a good bit.

The puck measures 47mm diameter and 14.5mm high whereas "The Guvnah" ( and I'm so tempted to give it the working title) spans 49mm across! and 17.05mm high without the crystal/acrylic installed! That adds another 1mm to the overall height. Funnily though, it doesn't look half as disproportionate as the puck can do probably because I've not incorporated a dive bezel and there's plenty of real estate surrounding the dial. Some careful chamfering really helps to disguise the sheer size very effectively as well by easing the eye around what would otherwise be sheer cliff faces of aluminium.



geodesigner said:


> I'm an industrial designer toying with the idea of creating watches...


Then you're already one up on me chap. :-!



geodesigner said:


> ...but so far I'm just sketching, modeling and 3D printing. Maybe I'll try some machining on the university's shop...


Do it, do it. Take plenty of pics, and post 'em here.



geodesigner said:


> Greetings from Brazil!


And to you from sunny Coventry... :roll:

Oh and comiserations on that world cup result by the way... or are we not mentioning that??? :rodekaart Is that a pint of Guiness in your avatar by any chance?


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## The Guvnah

Slightly interesting additional :-

The cutter left a little "nib" on each recess (as the solid model suggested it would) and a check of the relative lengths of these tells you where the cutter first bit the case and gives a good ad hoc indication of how accurate the setting up and maching has been. I put together a composite photo of each recess to show you what I mean.









There's only about 0.2mm difference between all four and considering the oblique angle the cutter met the case that's pretty damned close if I do say so myself.


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## geodesigner

Guvnah, you have my word, I'll try my luck at the university's lathe  

I'm very curious to see the end result, even if it defies the boundaries of wearability!

Oh, we are still pretty much shell-shocked by the unprecedent ten goals in two matches. Feels like a bad dream... time to let that sink in and drown my sorrows on long nights at the lathe, since the brazilian government announced a ban on German Lager and Weißbier (I kid, I kid).

You, sir, have a very keen eye - that's most definitely a pint of Guinness! I'm currently lucky enough to work near one of the only two Irish pubs in my city. There's something special about getting draught Guinness at the latitude of 20° South, six thousand miles away from Dublin! I love to live in the future.

Cheers!


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## Arie Kabaalstra

@GeoDesigner.. don't try.. just do. just like Guvnah and me.. I made several watches and watchcases already.. most of them from titanium..

About my english. i'm 43 years old.. or young for that matter.. and i've been speaking english for 32 years now.. i got enlish lessons in school from the age of 9.. and, the first year i was really blessed with my english teacher.. because she was in fact.. an ENGLISH teacher, Mrs Jones...

the Jones Family had moved to the netherlands because of Mr Jones' Job.. thier 2 daughters attended the same school as i, and so my teacher asked Mrs Jones to give english lessons in his class, because he considered himself not good enough.. good call!.. so the first year i was taught english by a native speaker.. and that's the best way to pick up any language..
I picked up german in a similar way.. watching german children's tv programs..
Also.. i might have that thing for learning languages.. i had 1 year of french, i don't remember much, but i do understand most of it.. same goes for italian.. i never studied italian.. but i understand a lot..

I see that you are a master on Conventional machines.. doing precise moves of the slides with a dial indicator.. i do the same when, for instance making Crystal gasket rings from delrin on my conventional lathe.. i had my customer here last week, and he witnessed in awe, how i made him a gasket for his prototype watch.. he couldn't imagine how such a piece was made in the first place.. so i showed him..

Taking a look at the lugs.. such a small misalignment.. is no problem at all.. having those tiny protrusions at all 4 positions means that you were really close to a perfect center.. the misalignment is only half the difference measured..

about the 6 holes.. nice way to get them scribed.. but.. there's an easier way.. the good old compass.. you can very easily divide a circle in 6 parts with that.. first you scribe the circle, then put the compass on the circle for position 1, and scribe positions 2 and 5 on the circle, move to point 2, and scribe position 3.. and so on.. when i was a kid.. i used to draw flowers that way..

I forgot an element on the english periodic table.. "hardtofindinium" a very rare metal.. but.. you could also make a watchcase from wishalloy off course... 

About Guinness.. i drank my first pint in 1995, when visiting the TT races on the isle of Man, only recently i re-discovered it, since Guinnes is sold in the local supermarket.. ( and i live in a village of only 1000 inhabitants )
it's great to enjoy a good beer after a day in the workshop..

Oh.. and by the way.. are you planning on using a Tube around the stem, to keep water and dust out?.. Tubes are not that hard to make.. they are only very smal.. and depending on Stem size you will need a drill slightly larger than the stem diameter.. for an 0.8 stem, i used a 1.2mm drill since that stem had a 1mm part with a gasket ring..










that's an 8 mm stainless steel rod.. I first turned it to the biggest diameter of the stem, than made the front portion to fit the case..turned the outside (facing the chuck) with the parting tool so i didn't have to turn the part around..
after drilling 1.2 ( leaving only 0.15 mm wall thickness ) i parted the part off


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## The Guvnah

Arie Kabaalstra said:


> @GeoDesigner.. don't try.. just do.


+1 on that advice from Arie, all the thought and planning in the world only has final value when you have the part held in your hand. I could have subbed my case design out to a light engineering firm to make but without doubt it would have cost me at least £500 and a month's wait. For that money I reasoned that I could buy a lathe and learn how to do it myself within maybe 2 months. It was a no brainer and that's precisely what I did.

But talk of mundanities such as cost and delay ignores the sheer enjoyment of acquiring a whole new and highly practical skill set, the intellectual challenge of realising a design 'from purely mental to totally metal', the making (and in this case wearing) of something completely unique, something that never existed before, something you made. It's what humans do best and the world becomes a little less mysterious when you know how it's made. I'll tell you this much; I am regularly shocked by most people's overarching ignorance and apathy of how the "stuff" they rely on daily is actually made. Sell one of your watches Geo-D and drop the cash into a jam jar with a label on the front saying "MY MACHINE". Then ask us any questions you like about what your buying options are particularly the guys like Arie and Magura who are pukka machinists/toolmakers, then go buy one. I swear within a month or two you'll be confidently making swarf with a prupose! Remember the subtext of this thread title was to encourage the re-adoption of the "I can do that" self reliant spirit of enquiry which madernity (not a mis-spelling) has pretty much expunged or rendered inapplicable and in some case downright unwanted!

Arie; do Dutch kids still have workshop classes these days, you know, the ones with real machines in them?



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> I see that you are a master on Conventional machines..doing precise moves of the slides with a dial indicator..


pffft! :-d I don't know about that Arie but thanks anyway. :-! Where I lack mastery I try to compensate for it with meticulousness and a refusal to be seduced by the devil that whispers "oh that's near enough". I measure _thrice_ - cut once, don't care if takes a week to plan and set up a cut and seeing as the TIR of my lathe is +/- half a thou (as measured inside the headstock's 1MT taper) I try to match that as my best achievable tolerance on this machine anyway. But all the above are component paths of what one might call the road to true 'mastery'. Off the top of your head do you know when the dial gauge was invented? In fact it was opening up and repairing of the box of dead and sticking Ebay dial gauges I'd accumulated that gave me the confidence to open up and operate on my first watch.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> i had my customer here last week, and he witnessed in awe, how i made him a gasket for his prototype watch.. he couldn't imagine how such a piece was made in the first place.. so i showed him..


Well I'm calling that a 'social service' that you just rendered there. In a similar vein that reminds me, I fell into a conversation six months ago with the bloke at the local auto parts store and he expressed the same fascination and hestitant urge to buy a small lathe. When this is done and wristed I think I'll nip back in there and wave it under his nose to see if that might convince him to "bite the billet" and invest.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Taking a look at the lugs.. such a small misalignment.. is no problem at all.. having those tiny protrusions at all 4 positions means that you were really close to a perfect center.. the misalignment is only half the difference measured..


Do you know what? I was still a bit miffed that they weren't all EXACTLY the same within 0.01mm :roll: I really should get out more!



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> about the 6 holes.. nice way to get them scribed.. but.. there's an easier way.. the good old compass.. you can very easily divide a circle in 6 parts with that.. first you scribe the circle, then put the compass on the circle for position 1, and scribe positions 2 and 5 on the circle, move to point 2, and scribe position 3.. and so on.. when i was a kid.. i used to draw flowers that way..


Way ahead of you there A. I recalled that trick from trigonometry lessons and I too used to doodle with it to create concentric mandalas on all my exercise books. It was the first thing that crossed my mind but so did the numerical value of pi. 3.1412
That *.1412* bit suggested that the radius will not be a sufficiently precise divisor of the circumference and this is what I remember used to happen with my little mandalas, the arcs I stepped off around the circumferences never fully conincided when they came back to the starting point. But I gave it a go anyway on a sheet of A4 using a Rotring technical drawing compass to see just how far out it actually was. Sure enough the marks didn't precisely divide the circumference. As a double check I fired up AutoCAD and copied 6 x 100mm circles in sequence around it's own circumference using the preceding intersection point to place each subsequent circle and this confirmed it.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> About Guinness.. i drank my first pint in 1995, when visiting the TT races on the isle of Man, only recently i re-discovered it, since Guinnes is sold in the local supermarket.. ( and i live in a village of only 1000 inhabitants )


Never could stand the stuff myself, ordered a pint once, couldn't finish it.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> it's great to enjoy a good beer after a day in the workshop..


You're not wrong there, a drop of neck oil.



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> Oh.. and by the way.. are you planning on using a Tube around the stem, to keep water and dust out?.. Tubes are not that hard to make.. they are only very smal.. and depending on Stem size you will need a drill slightly larger than the stem diameter.. for an 0.8 stem, i used a 1.2mm drill since that stem had a 1mm part with a gasket ring..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> that's an 8 mm stainless steel rod.. I first turned it to the biggest diameter of the stem, than made the front portion to fit the case..turned the outside (facing the chuck) with the parting tool so i didn't have to turn the part around..
> after drilling 1.2 ( leaving only 0.15 mm wall thickness ) i parted the part off


The immediate plan is to insert a single (maybe double) O-ring in the stem bore when I get round to selecting from what's commercially available but a lock down/screw down crown is most definitely the end goal. Before that happens I have to work out how to make such a tiny boring bar. I do know you can buy manufactured screwed crowns and tubes which are a press fit in the case which could be a quick solution but doesn't teach me how to do them m'self. Must get this lathe set up for the next learning curve; fine threading and screwcutting. All advice most gratefully received of course.

cheers all

The Guv.

p.s. that stem tube is a lovely bit o' work by the way! I'm slowly working my way down to that scale of work.


----------



## geodesigner

To Guv and Arie, thanks for all the great advice! 

I could particularly relate to the issue of people not being able to understand how their things are made. When in college, I had five courses called "Materials and Productive Processes" and it changed radically the way I see things. Wood, metal, polymers, ceramics and composites... Moulding, milling, plating, etching, injecting, polishing... A new world. I couldn't believe how little I knew about how were things made. These learnings made me want to make more things instead of buying them, and when I bought, I started putting more thought into how that thing was made, and I started to value craftsmanship.

Alas, our society relies more and more on disposable products. Buy cheap, replace often. This has so many implications for society and nature, it'd be a subject to a whole new thread. All I know is that when you make things, you perceive value in things. If more people started making, we'd be on our way towards a better, more durable and less disposable future. Kudos for you two and to all other makers on WUS!


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## The Guvnah

geodesigner said:


> To Guv and Arie, thanks for all the great advice!
> 
> I could particularly relate to the issue of people not being able to understand how their things are made. When in college, I had five courses called "Materials and Productive Processes" and it changed radically the way I see things. Wood, metal, polymers, ceramics and composites... Moulding, milling, plating, etching, injecting, polishing... A new world. I couldn't believe how little I knew about how were things made. These learnings made me want to make more things instead of buying them, and when I bought, I started putting more thought into how that thing was made, and I started to value craftsmanship.
> 
> Alas, our society relies more and more on disposable products. Buy cheap, replace often. This has so many implications for society and nature, it'd be a subject to a whole new thread. (indeed it should! - Guv) All I know is that when you make things, you perceive value in things. If more people started making, we'd be on our way towards a better, more durable and less disposable future.


Couldn't have put it better or encapsulated it more concisely.


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## Magura

Fact is unfortunately, that there has never been that few people on the planet, who are able to put a stick in a dog-pooh, without destroying both the stick and the pooh.


Magura


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## Arie Kabaalstra

The Guvnah said:


> But talk of mundanities such as cost and delay ignores the sheer enjoyment of acquiring a whole new and highly practical skill set, the intellectual challenge of realising a design 'from purely mental to totally metal', the making (and in this case wearing) of something completely unique, something that never existed before, something you made. It's what humans do best and the world becomes a little less mysterious when you know how it's made. I'll tell you this much; I am regularly shocked by most people's overarching ignorance and apathy of how the "stuff" they rely on daily is actually made. Sell one of your watches Geo-D and drop the cash into a jam jar with a label on the front saying "MY MACHINE". Then ask us any questions you like about what your buying options are particularly the guys like Arie and Magura who are pukka machinists/toolmakers, then go buy one. I swear within a month or two you'll be confidently making swarf with a prupose! Remember the subtext of this thread title was to encourage the re-adoption of the "I can do that" self reliant spirit of enquiry which madernity (not a mis-spelling) has pretty much expunged or rendered inapplicable and in some case downright unwanted!
> 
> Arie; do Dutch kids still have workshop classes these days, you know, the ones with real machines in them?


+10 on that !.. it is indeed a source of sheer enjoyment, even extacy to aquire a new skill.. i remember when i made my first watchcase from toolsteel, that upon finishing it, i suddenly realised.. "Gee.. i can actually do this!!"
the story goes that sculptor Michelangelo once said: "sculpting?.. no.. not difficult at all.. just take a big rock, and cut off what you don't need"

Same goes for making watchcases.. imagine.. i had a piece of titanium...










and i knew.. i just knew there was something beautifull inside that piece of raw material..so i proceeded with cutting away layer after layer of titanium.. and look what emerged..










I'm not sure if they still have that like when i was in highschool.. i was working with lathes, mills and tablegrinders from the age of 13.. education has really gone down the drain since then.. you almost need a university degree when working at the checkout of a supermarket.. not because it is a difficult job, but because of the poor quality of education nowadays..

Meticulousness is a form of mastery.. in fact.. meticulousness is what sets watchmakers apart from "regular fine mechanical machinists"... because a watch is not just a functional device, but a thing of beauty too..
Planning and setting up can be up to 80% of the work.. that's why i made those collets.. one for every dimension..they take some hours to make.. but save me twice as much time when using them instead of trying to set up my work with only doodads, whatnots and wishalloy doohickeys.. i ran out of thingamajiggs unfortunately..(i use wishalloy for my doohickeys because hardtofindinium and Unobtainium are out of stock at my supllier's )

When dial indicators were invented?.. not a clue.. but it is the best invention before sliced bread..can't live without them..
For centering and aligning parts in a chuck wether it is on the lathe or on the mill i use dial test indicators.. those with a swiveling needle at the front.. can set those up in any position. making reading easy.. they also allow you to check the inside of a part.. when turning a watchcase for instance.. if the inside was turnd, the outside doesn't matter.. in fact.. that can be off center.. but who cares if there's stil material to be taken off.. if you chuck on the inside.. measure on the inside.. so everything is aligned with the inside.. that 's how we do that..










you can also use those to align parts on a mill table.. attach the Dial Test indicator to the spindle, and turn it by hand.. as soon as the needle doesn't move anymore.. you're on dead center.. if you're not.. the indicator will give tell you how much you need the table.. ( half the difference on the indicator)



> Way ahead of you there A. I recalled that trick from trigonometry lessons and I too used to doodle with it to create concentric mandalas on all my exercise books. It was the first thing that crossed my mind but so did the numerical value of pi. 3.1412
> That *.1412* bit suggested that the radius will not be a sufficiently precise divisor of the circumference and this is what I remember used to happen with my little mandalas, the arcs I stepped off around the circumferences never fully conincided when they came back to the starting point. But I gave it a go anyway on a sheet of A4 using a Rotring technical drawing compass to see just how far out it actually was. Sure enough the marks didn't precisely divide the circumference. As a double check I fired up AutoCAD and copied 6 x 100mm circles in sequence around it's own circumference using the preceding intersection point to place each subsequent circle and this confirmed it.


Pi is 3.14159265 if i remember well.. when i dont have a calculator at hand, when practicing napkin-engineering, i use 22/7.. pretty close.. 
When doing calculations, i sometimes grab a sliderule instead of a Casio FX whatever..

On a mill with cross slides,if i had to drill holes in a pattern, i'd make sure my part is centered, and calculate X and Y positions..(Sine (angle) x radius) and Cosine (angle) x radius) this gives you X and Y coordinates..when making 6 holes.. that is easy.. your pitchcircle was 20.45.. so the Y value of the first two holes is 0, with X -20.45 and +20.45, now for the other ones?.. easy.. they are Y +10.225 and -10.225, (indeed.. half of 20.45) now for the X values, that's 10.225 x the square root of 3...because six holes can be connected with triangles with angles of 30, 60 and 90°, and the relation between the lengths of the sides are : 1: 2: Sqrt3
Math is fun!.. 

if your crown has O-rings inside.. just make a tube that fits inside, and leaves room for the stem to go through.. make it with a press fit in the case, and you're done!.. it is that easy..


----------



## The Guvnah

Brilliant, of course, why didn't I think of that? Probably because I haven't done any trig for 30 odd years. Thanks for that Arie, maths revision session for me this evening I think.You learn/re-learn something new every day.

And you're right, pi is 3.1416 which rounds up to 3.142, that's where I slipped up, I have trouble remembering my own phone number mate. :-{


----------



## The Guvnah

Remember your earlier post Arie?



Arie Kabaalstra said:


> or spending some qualitiy time with the missus.. forgot what that's like.. been single for the last couple of years.. that's why i have so much time to make watches..


And remember my reply? Well it never ends.

I had set today aside, the goal being to get the prototype crappium lug radiussed (might need to knock up a radiussing jig), polished and fitted, but the missus has just asked me to take our toaster down to the charity shop. It cost 60 odd quid, still practically brand new and I think we've used it about twice! It's taking up too much worktop space apparently so she wants it gone.

"Yeah no problem sweety-pie, bag it up and I'll drop it in, someone might as well have the benefit of it."
"-----------"
Eh! There's something rattling around in it, can you see it through the slots?"
"--"
"Oh Lord! (The Guv rolls his eyes to the heavens in anticipation of what's next) Alright bring it in here and I'll have a look."

Can't see a damn thing but there seems to be quite a few miscellaneous objects rattling around in there, bloody hell, there goes the morning. I flip it over - Whaaaat???!!! Tri-wing security screws??? oh fer crying out loud! What's wrong with a normal Phillips screw all of a sudden? through the grille in the base I see circuit boards and about 6 multipole cct board edge connectors, blimey! what's in there it's only a ruddy toaster? I expected 4 screws and the cover's off; ...this could take a while.


----------



## The Guvnah

Sorry to report that there has been a serious interruption of immediate progress...
This week started off bad and the nosedived. - Page 3

Hell's bells! Don't mind admitting that I'm feeling completely out of my depth with this one. :-s :think: ....o|


----------



## Magura

Sorry to hear that.
The good news is that second time around, it will always turn out better and faster.

Magura


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## The Guvnah

Magura said:


> Sorry to hear that.
> The good news is that second time around, it will always turn out better and faster.
> 
> Magura


Cheers m and that's exactly right, you read my mind, clouds - silver linings and all that. It was a prototype after all, made solely to gauge the aesthetics of the design 'as built' and to work out how I was going to set up each cut reliably and repeatably. For the Mk2 Guvnah I might endeavour to shave a few mm off the height, (it's 19mm fer chrissakes!) By comparison the thickest watch I own is an Orca and that's a gnats knacker over 15mm in height. I think 17mm will be the new target which might spare a few door frames from getting damaged.

Some good news is that I've raised my bricked HP laptop from the dead despite its scrambled BIOS with a live linux disc in its CD tray and amazingly the trashed hard drive I'd salvaged from the smoking ruins span up with nary a whisper when I'd expected it to either be jammed solid or for the read head to throw curls of swarf off the platters! Into a drive caddy and thence to USB and .... blow me, it's all there! The vital CAD drawings included :-! Only problem; I can't open them with anything on the Puppy Linux disc and installing CAD applcations on a Linux OS is apparantly a ferociously complex business requiring compilers, build logs (?) gigabytes of "dependencies" (whatever they are??) deep-core scripting proficiency, 4kg of combat strength javan rich roast and three weeks of your life spare. One for true boffins only unless anyone knows better. I installed the Linux Pup onto a partition on the caddied drive and the thing boots to a working desktop in about 15 seconds flat! but sheesh the terminology and behaviour are totally different to Windows, and downloading and installing programs is going nowhere at the moment. ***** even Sketchup would be of some use at this point. o|

Right, sod this for a game of Russians, I'm going to get old school on it, fire up the lathe, make a mandrel and carve me a new case armed with nought but, vernier, pencil and scribble pad + the dimensions I can recall from memory.

Then hopefully I can figure out how to extract pics from the camera??

t.t.f.n.

The Guv


----------



## Magura

You'll get a long way with a bunch of numbers on a used napkin.
I've made entire projects like that on regular basis.
Mostly I do so, cause it's easier to create a 3D image in your head, than on a computer, or at least a lot faster. 
After you have the image nailed, a calculator and a used napkin will get you far.

Magura


----------



## INTERIMLAMB

Beautiful work! Swing lug is nice idea. I hope your good luck and success.


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## The Guvnah

INTERIMLAMB said:


> Beautiful work! Swing lug is nice idea. I hope your good luck and success.


Thankyou Lamby, that's compliment enough for me, your watch and mine are on a similar spiritual and aesthetic quest I feel.

Now that the domestic dust has settled somewhat the urge to make 50 Shades of Swarf has returned with a vengeance. Today has been the first opportunity I've had to actually get some productive machine time in for well over a month. I did a bit of CAD work on "The Guvnah" (rev2) last night; I've shaved 2mm off the height and I may just steal another millimeter off the thickness of the case back too. I now have case blank number two roughed out and have made a start on the case back so there should be a few more photos to be posted shortly. Getting impatient now!


----------



## DDimitrov

Hello Guvnah,
My English is not good enough to describe the pleasure to follow your topic. The language barrier did not stop me to read everything you wrote, although not all understand. Anyway, what you do with your own hands and skills you have is remarkable. From people like you in various hobby forums I learned a lot. Long live the Internet !!! : D


----------



## INTERIMLAMB

DDimitrov said:


> Hello Guvnah,
> My English is not good enough to describe the pleasure to follow your topic. The language barrier did not stop me to read everything you wrote, although not all understand. Anyway, what you do with your own hands and skills you have is remarkable. From people like you in various hobby forums I learned a lot. Long live the Internet !!! : D


I agree with you. The language barrier makes me irritate. Web translation service is my recent friend...


----------



## The Guvnah

DDimitrov said:


> Hello Guvnah,
> My English is not good enough to describe the pleasure to follow your topic. The language barrier did not stop me to read everything you wrote, although not all understand.





INTERIMLAMB said:


> I agree with you. The language barrier *makes me irritate*. Web translation service is my recent friend...


Should be "...the language barrier makes me irritable" or another way of saying the same thing is "...the language barrier irritates me". The way you've phrased it makes it sound like it's making you physically itch or that it's causing you to irritate someone else. What the hell, _we_ know what you mean which is what matters.:-! It's quite incredible to think how meanings can be completely reinterpreted by the simple shift of a word's position within a sentence. I know that English is reputed to be one of the more difficult and nuanced languages to learn fluently but I'll bet my attempts at Japanese would produce gales of laughter if penned on a Japanese forum.

I suppose it is also complicated by the odd typo error or hurried mis-spelling or missing comma that occurs pretty regularly, a native English speaker can spot them but it must cause a bit of head scratching for those who aren't. And frankly some Westerner's grasp of their own language can sometimes be embarassingly poor.

Also; yeah sorry fellahs, mea culpa (Latin = I am guilty!) I have to claim my share of the blame here too as I do tend to use quite a few vernacular phrases and wordplays that are culturally specific to the Anglosphere. Just as the name "Interimlamb" had me completely "foxed" until Lamby explained it. Oops! I just did it again.:-d If I come out with some obscure reference or saying you don't understand then do please ask and I'll be only too happy to explain them. I'll bet there are some fabulous, evocative sayings and verbal interplays in the Japanese and Bulgarian languages so let's hear some of them, this kind of thing fascinates and delights me.



DDimitrov said:


> Anyway, what you do with your own hands and skills you have is remarkable. From people like you in various hobby forums I learned a lot. Long live the Internet !!! : D


And in turn I learned what little I know from the old live steam modelling guys. On here we're lucky to have the likes of Magura and Arie who are the real machinists here rather than just hobbyists such as me. I try to write this stuff up from the layman's perspective in order to make the process more accessible to someone who's never turned a lathe, well, I try to simplify things as far as is possible when discussing what is after all a very tech heavy, jargon packed subject.

Thanks for the comments anyway guys, much appreciated.

Guv

anyroadup,,, that's enough of the comparative socio-philosophy for today, let's get serious; time to update this thread with...

...more pics!


----------



## The Guvnah

The Guvnah's 'back in the saddle' after the enforced interlude and we're makin' swarf! I don't want to go over old ground but as Magura pointed out it provided an opportunity to take a breath and tweak the design a little further. Improvement? Yeah I'd say so, chief revision is the reduction in height from a beastly 19mm to 17mm (possibly 16 if I can shave that extra mm off the thickness of the case back) A switch to the bronze swing-lugs might allow me to thin them down to 3mm thick to match a slimmed down case back.

First up; the case blank and an ideal opportunity to try out using a mandrel fixture to hold it repeatably. Arie's pattern looked eminently reproducable so I cropped off a bit of 36mm "black bar" rolled steel and fashioned the following item...









God alone knows what that 'black bar' stuff is but it must have a lot of carbon in it or something, it's as hard as 'kin nails to cut, heavy and dense and extremely intolerant of variations in spindle speed, depth of cut, tool tip angles and feed rate. once you get them all in sync however the swarf swishes musically off it in beautiful tight springing curls but then the slightest hesitation whilst hand feeding or misjudging the infeed a fraction either way and it either digs in horribly or skates across the surface! o| It does however take a stunningly deep and lustrous polish when you work it through the grades of grit. I determined to persevere with it though because a mandrel needs to be solid and wear resistant if nothing else.









A golden rule of machining is; "once it's chucked it stays chucked until the last operation is done". Your standard 3 jaw chuck (even the best) won't repeatably grip the work to within a few thou at best. A mandrel turned 'in situ' however will be perfectly concentric with the spindle so long as it isn't removed. Mounting a part on that in-situ mandrel allows the facility to remove that part from the lathe at any time and then re-seat it on the machine exactly as it was with repeatable accuracy every time _so long as_ one is scrupulous about cleaning off even the smallest particle of swarf from both the part and the mandrel. Nevertheless I still run a 1/10thou finger clock over it after a removal and replacement to double check what the eye can't see nor fingertip detect. I'm like that.









And a tip of the Guvnah's hat to Arie, works a treat. One mod I added was to tap the centre of the wedge cone at M6 to accept a 6mm jacking bolt so that I could get the damned thing out again! The first time I had to use a self tapping screw gripped in the tailstock chuck to shift it. That is one tight fixture. As an ad hoc check of my ancient chuck's accuracy I punch marked the mandrel in the cetre of jaw no.1 and re-fitted it; it came in +/- 2 thou every time and with a minute taken to jiggle it I could bring the runout down to a few tenths of a thou. And this is a sixty year old machine don't forget! Mr. Tyzack you certainly knew how to ream a headstock bearing. |>

And the result...









Does the dial blank fit?









Oh yes, it fits like a piston. Another pat on the chuck duly delivered.









So nearly back to square one. Luckily I still have the crown and stem which were in the parts case under the desk so that'll save a day or two. Oh yes...Dials? dials? dials? Do I keep the one off the donor movement or etch one of my own? I've now got the CuSO4 and I've got this...









No I'm not considering a career change to backyard medical experimentation or random rodent extermination, it's a little rig I've devised for some ghetto "jam-jar" electrolytic etching.


----------



## cowboys5sb1997

Guvnah,

I have to say that I am flat out impressed with what you are doing. I consider myself a complete imbecile when it comes to machine tools and have thoroughly enjoyed following your journey via your story telling! I almost feel like I could attempt this as well.

Hope the missus is well (mine is also going through a tough depressive episode) and I cannot wait until the next update.

Bill


----------



## The Guvnah

cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Guvnah,
> 
> I have to say that I am flat out impressed with what you are doing. I consider myself a complete imbecile when it comes to machine tools and have thoroughly enjoyed following your journey via your story telling!


Hey thanks Cowboy.



cowboys5sb1997 said:


> I almost feel like I could attempt this as well.


Then my work here is done. :-!



cowboys5sb1997 said:


> Hope the missus is well (mine is also going through a tough depressive episode)


I'm afraid not C. There is some entrenched ideation going on that is leaving the consultant shrugging her shoulders as to when/if it will recede. I'm getting no feedback whatsoever from her care team and am left pretty much in the dark if not actively considered an irrelevance vis-a-vis her ongoing care! As for advice; pffffffft!?? One thing I would say is get some kind of intervention for her NOW! not three or six months hence. Thump as many tables as it takes to get them focussed on her condition. I spent the thick end of 3 years trying to get the medical profession and the monolithic NHS system to get a grip of what was happening before my eyes but it's extremely difficult if the sufferer is themself unwilling to engage with the process and even harder if the reaction is one of denial. Do not let the situation degrade beyond a point of no return is what I'm saying. :rodekaart



cowboys5sb1997 said:


> and I cannot wait until the next update.
> 
> Bill


Then wait no more... :-!


----------



## The Guvnah

Right, where was I? Oh yes, admiring InterimLamb's creation. OK that's enough of that so let's get back to business...

I've managed to devise an adjustable jig that will serve to radius the ends of the swing lugs, (seems to be adaptable to a good many other items as well I reckon)









Clamp it squarely into an X-Y vice, adjust for height and slowly feed it into the grinding wheel. I 'll need to fashion some stops to limit the rotation to 180 deg and ensure that should the wheel take a grab on the part it won't get dragged to destruction. This is for use at a later date but I thought I'd put it together whilst I had the idea and the parts in front of me. The caseback is what I need to be cracking on with.

A quick recap of the method...









The square blank of 8mm ally has been secured to a mini faceplate by tapping a few M3 holes in two of the corners and screwing two countersunk M3 screws in from the back to hold the blank to the plate. Solid as a rock and I'll admit to having lost a lot of faith in the adhesive powers of double sided tape!

Basically the dial guage is measuring the movement of a steel bar securely bolted at an accessible height into the furthest slot of the cross slide. By winding the slide back and forth across the lathe bed and gently tapping the steel bar you get it set up perfectly at right angles to the lathe's spindle axis such that the gauge shows no variation over the bar's length as the slide is wound in or out as req'd. I bring the carriage up so that the cutting bit just touches the surface of the workpiece and then adjust the position of the gauge so that it is 'pre-loaded' to show 10mm. Now as the bit is advanced into the work the gauge will count down the number of millimetres with one whole revolution telling me that I've cut 1mm. With the dial marked with a hundred divisions you can see how accurate it's possible to be. No magic, just half decent tools! Time to apply the revs...

















That's taken off 3.5mm but as you can see I was by then contacting the screw ends which was threatening to loosen off. For the final thicknessing at 4mm I decided to cut the corners off and "dog" it. So before removing the blank I dotted a light countersink in the centre to accept a conical tailstock centre...









The driving "dog" in this case is an M5 brass screw which butts into the side of the blank and forces it to rotate whilst it is help firmly against the faceplate by the tailstock centre. I can now take clean passes with the bit. Now I can clamp it to the plate to bore out the recess for the movement... again...

















...sorry can't talk; concentrating...









...and...









A trial fit and I'm a few thou shy of the final dimension but I'll return to that when I've settled the gasketing arrangements.

With a few slips of fine paper (1/2 a thou thick if that) the case and back are a (very) tight push fit...









Setting out the 6no. caseback screw positions to take M2.5 x 10 screws.









I'm having to raid the screw jar for them and the nearest I have will require them to have the heads reduced in diameter from 5.5 to 3.9mm and their hieght skimmed down from 1.2 to 1mm so that they'll sit snugly in 4mm dia x 1.1mm recesses that will be milled into the caseback. Here's the tiny mandrel I turned up from an M4 brass electrical screw to do this job.

















Only takes a few minutes to do each one followed by a quick spin against a slip of 1000grit dipped in the proverbial white spirit. About to order in some pukka stainless screws but Torx or Hex heads??









Getting there...

Time to skim off 1mm from the caseback in an attempt to reduce the overall height...

















now it's ready to have the screw positions transferred onto the case blank. This was the reason for the slips of paper; to wedge the two pieces tightly together so they couldn't move under the driller. Once two holes have been tapped it won't be moving anyay. There is a 0.3mm overhang, phew! just enough to be able to skim it all flush when screwed together.









I wanted to cut an O-ring land so back on the faceplate and conical centre setup. Schoolboy error...









...forgot to make sure the tailstock clamp was fully locked... DOH! o|


----------



## CH007

Guvnah,

Thats some great work there and has inspired me to crack on with my own watch!

I turned the bezel and there it sits, just waiting on the rotary table for the 6 mounting holes...

I'm a long way off having the time to do much at the moment but I think a tidy up of the workshop and digging out my old design is in order 

Keep up the good work, it must be tempting many to get it started. On your suggestion for the Taig, it's a great machine capable of very decent accuracy. It was first lathe many years ago and served me well. My current lathe is too big really as it's a big geared head 12 x 48 beast. 

I will be following with interest

Colin


----------



## The Guvnah

CH007 said:


> Guvnah,
> 
> Thats some great work there and has inspired me to crack on with my own watch!


:-!



CH007 said:


> I turned the bezel and there it sits, just waiting on the rotary table for the 6 mounting holes...


Talk to me about rotary tables. o|

Just had to send one back to the makers/importers because of the tight spots every revolution between about 140 and 240 degs. Thought I'd get away with a 'budget' one... ....no...!
However that little faux pas is about to be rectified in grand style. Read on.



CH007 said:


> I'm a long way off having the time to do much at the moment but I think a tidy up of the workshop and digging out my old design is in order
> 
> ...My current lathe is too big really as it's a big geared head 12 x 48 beast.


Jeeeeeez, and there's the truth! Uncanny though, you and I are in comparable boats and looking at similar solutions. Last week I stood in appraisal, hands on hips drawing aggressivily on a cigarette, looking at my workspace and the assorted machines and thinking... I've had enough of this! No decent milling capability or indexing facility, piles of crap stashed under the machines, no shelving worth a damn, who are you kidding and how do you propose to complete this project with the kit available? It ain't gonna happen. Can't fit my big bench mill in here... even that's too chuffin' big... can't dynamite that cupboard wall out to annexe another few square feet...
It's no good Guvnah you've got to man up and kit up.

I briefly toyed with the idea of ponying up for one of those CNC'd imported mini mills (nowt more than beefed up Dremels) and quickly kicked myself for even flirting with such blasphemous squandry,

...and then I found this...

















1 x Sigma BCA mk2 jig-borer. Now this one WILL fit in my space.

All being well I'll be picking it up in a few weeks. At £600 I won't be able to find anything that remotely compares to this. Fer chrissakes an 8" ro-tab of similar quality alone will be pushing that price and that's without the handy bit of precision milling kit stuck on the side! Two previous owners, current one a clock maker and his predecessor I believe was a professorial type who specialised in avionics I think. Unlikely that it has ever been seriously strained and from the pictures supplied it looks as near to mint as is reasonable to expect.

Having admired these machines from afar for many years I can now state for the record that I am fully and officially stoked at the prospect of being the next custodian of this one.

All of which means that I will be gutting out my 'alcove' and totally reorganising in preparation for its arrival. It also means that the Zyto lathe will be too long in the bed depending on whether I can squeeze them side by side. Quite fond of that Zyto now I think about it but I too might have to downsize on the lathe.



CH007 said:


> Keep up the good work, it must be tempting many to get it started. On your suggestion for the Taig, it's a great machine capable of very decent accuracy. It was first lathe many years ago and served me well.
> 
> I will be following with interest
> 
> Colin


Thanks Colin. Not just keep up the work but accelerate it hopefully. I never realised what a significant part naked pig headed persistence plays in watch building.


----------



## black watch

Hi Govnah,

I just today stumbled on your post and&#8230;ha ha, it's entertaining to say the least.
I'm a machinist for many years, but I don't do it anymore, however I have access to fancy equipment for what we call government jobs . I truly admire your ingenuity and perseverance, you know the mark of a good machinist is how well he or she can do with little, and you take the cake my friend.
I was thinking, all the time you put into drawings, fixtures and machining, if you had put the same time into a paying job you would probably have enough for a Rolex. 

However, I admire your do-it-yourself mind set, I don't think I'd bother, I just don't have enough time left on this earth to be bothered.
I read through most of the pages and your pics, skipped a few lines here and there, but I see where you're going. I'm looking at that oversized cake mixer, oh boy. :roll: I see the belts and pulleys are round so they can follow the spindle when it's moved up and down, with a tilting idler pully to the left, never seen one of those, don't run it with a tie on.

I'm sure you can use it for light milling, but probably not too good for drilling tiny holes if the only means of vertical control is the hand crank at the top, no fine feeling there. You could use a micro drill adapter.
Micro Drill Adaptor - JT0 - 1/2" Shank - Arc Euro Trade

I can't say I agree with your opinion of micro CNC millers:



> I briefly toyed with the idea of ponying up for one of those CNC'd imported mini mills (nowt more than beefed up Dremels) and quickly kicked myself for even flirting with such blasphemous squandry


That's exactly I'd want if I had your aspirations.

Something like this: (See below.)
CNC Machine - CNC Jr Table Top Mill | CNC Masters

Your probably going to eventually want to make a better watch case, and another, and another, with a CNC you can just edit your programs, obviously there's more to it than that, but certainly significantly easier. You could etch custom bezels, endless possibilities, maybe make some money back.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing your end result and the inginuity it takes to get there.


----------



## Arie Kabaalstra

Ahh.. i already thought that mandrel looked familiar..

I have on more tip for you. erhm.. make that two..

if i use my mandrel i take the 3Jaw chuck off.. i've made this holder that centers perfectly on the lathe's main shaft.. it is fastened with the same bolt holes as the chuck.
you could take the chuck off, and make a holder to put the mandrels in.. My holder has a "fitting diameter" of ø34 mm, because i made the first mandrel uit of ø35 round stock.. and i trimmed 1 mm off to get it accurate, smooooooth and cilindrical.

Then... the cone.. tap a threaded hole in it, in the center.. and pull it in the mandrel by means of a threaded rod.. tighten it with a knob behind the headstock.
This servers 2 purposes... first and foremost.. you will be able to clamp blind casebacks on the lathe this way.., Second.. you don't need any tools to place or remove parts.. hold the holder with your rifght hand, turn knob with left.. done!..

Like So:










I turned a knob, ø58 mm in diameter.. piece of ø60, turned to be smooth and accurate.. it's a habit really... :-d
the protrusion on the front fits nicely but loosely in the main spindle bore..ø16 mm










i then put it on the CNC mill to mill grooves in it for added grip..










and here it sits on the lefthand side of the lathe..










and here's the collet.. no more allen bolt, no more scavenging the chiptray for that bloody key to loosen my part.. ;-)










and here.. we have a blind caseback fitted to it.. just prior to machining.. it came fresh from the mill.. i milled M39x0.5 thread to it.. Yes.. 0.5 mm pitch, 39 mm diameter.. that's a really fine thread.. but it is for a really fine watch.. the P1lot One.. the thickness of the case< measured from the inside to the outside is a mere 2.4 mm .. that's thin for a watchcase.. no place for screws to fit the back, because we also need a gasket there.. and that leaves a rim of only 1.15 mm

Making the collets with a "system" also enables you to use them on other machines.. like so










where the collet is centered in a Holding plate.. i've kept the old clamping cone for the milling machine.. still need a key here.. but 'm thinking about a new holder.. with a rotating disc in it.. so i can tighten it from underneat.. for those blind casebacks for instance.. although.. for the milling of the slots for the tool to screw them on.. i still could use a 3 Jaw chuck..










about that machine.. yes.. that would indeed be blasphemy... people get kicked for less.. that's a drill press with a cross slide..not a milling machine.. the round collumn is not ridgid enough to cope with the cutting forces milling produces...Furthermore.. the quill is used for depth movement.. when using the quill for milling, i'd get kicked out of class in school..the quill is not designed for that kind of torture.. and there's more.. my rant is far from over.. i see handwheels.. a CNC machine does not... i repeat DOES NOT have handwheels.. only an electronic one for setting up a job.. if the machine knows it's reference points.. the program takes over. Period!.. 
I've taken a look at that website.. i'm not impressed... totally NOT impressed.. 0.25 mm sidecuts?.. i take .3 mm sidecuts with a 4 mm endmill in Titanium!.. not some "Crappium"' coldrolled steel bar..

Stay away from machines like this... if you consider going CNC. by a Wabeco ( those too have handwheels fitted.. TAKE THEM OFF, as they give imbalance when rotating at higher revs.. when the machine does rapid moves...)

or a SIEG X3.. i converted one to another CNC control for a clockmaker.. he uses it to make gears..


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