# Show me your 376.0822 Speedmaster!



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Some of you might already be familiar with the 376.0822 (a.k.a. "Grail") Speedmaster owners' page I set up on Frappr. For those who aren't, see my signature. I am now curious to see pictures of your personal examples, and hopefully lure a few lurkers to register their example on my page!

I'll start...


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*All in good time...*

All in good time, Pascal. Thanks for the pics to remind me why I really _need_ one.

In the meantime, I just have to make due with my poor man's variety.










I know, I know; it's not the same, but it'll have to do...for now.

eric


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



eptaz said:


> I know, I know; it's not the same, but it'll have to do...for now.


It's still a great looking Lemania 5100 chrono, and one that I would not mind adding to my collection at some point.









The Grail is a different animal though, and one that has the kind of "presence" that you find only with a few wristwatches. Finding it is a quest that may turn to obsession for some, but being among the lucky ones who did manage to get their hands on one after a long and painful search, I can tell you that it's definitely worth the effort.


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



Pascal S said:


> It's still a great looking Lemania 5100 chrono, and one that I would not mind adding to my collection at some point.


Thanks, Pascal. At 39mm, the Cyma comes in closer to Day-Date size (with that nice 5100 thickness), but I think it has a nice look and an exceptional movement.


> The Grail is a different animal though, and one that has the kind of "presence" that you find only with a few wristwatches. Finding it is a quest that may turn to obsession for some, but being among the lucky ones who did manage to get their hands on one after a long and painful search, I can tell you that it's definitely worth the effort.


I'm a pretty patient guy, but I know this is one that I _must_ have on my wrist as soon as possible!

eric


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## tgarn (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



eptaz said:


> All in good time, Pascal. Thanks for the pics to remind me why I really _need_ one.
> 
> In the meantime, I just have to make due with my poor man's variety.
> 
> ...


What a nice Cyma! I love the L5100 and the early Fortis Stratoliner series
from the 1990's almost looks the same. Maybe there was a secret connection... b-)










Here is my favourite Stratoliner variant with arabic numerals that took me
some time to find. The watch has seen some action ;-) but is performing 
flawlessly. Compared to other L5100 models this is one of the 
"smallest" (wrist-wise) in my collection.










OK, back on topic - a fellow German WIS decided to part with his like-new
376.0822 and 1450 bracelet and I was the lucky buyer. The seller just had 
the watch serviced at Omega Germany where a new SL dial was installed 
and some minor parts were replaced. Omega also returned all old parts.










Best regards,

Thomas


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



tgarn said:


> The seller just had the watch serviced at Omega Germany where a new SL dial was installed and some minor parts were replaced. Omega also returned all old parts.


The watch looks beautiful, but the dial is unfortunately incorrect, as evidenced by the gap between the dial markings and the chapter ring. Take a look at my example for comparison. Furthermore, there should be a "10" next to the index at 2 o'clock.

Since the original 376.0822 dial is so difficult to find (it personally took me almost two years to track one down), I assume that Omega Germany took the easy route and mounted a replacement part destined to a 176.0012. If it is among the old parts that were returned, I would be very curious to see what the original dial looks like...


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*Sorry, I missed your post!*

Hi Thomas. I previously missed your response and kind words about my Cyma. Thanks much.


tgarn said:


> What a nice Cyma! I love the L5100 and the early Fortis Stratoliner series
> from the 1990's almost looks the same. Maybe there was a secret connection... b-)


I'm sure you're right. I was only aware of the Fortis variety, before I stumbled across this Cyma. I wouldn't be surprised if there were others out there, too, like this Jean Marcel Ikarus that recently sold on ebay.







Of course, it's not quite the same, and more like the _other_ Fortis design.


> Here is my favourite Stratoliner variant with arabic numerals that took me
> some time to find. The watch has seen some action ;-) but is performing
> flawlessly. Compared to other L5100 models this is one of the
> "smallest" (wrist-wise) in my collection.


Yup, that's the one! I actually had the opportunity to purchase a nice NOS example about a year ago, but the seller and I couldn't agree on a price. It looks like the hands are a bit different.









> OK, back on topic - a fellow German WIS decided to part with his like-new
> 376.0822 and 1450 bracelet and I was the lucky buyer. The seller just had
> the watch serviced at Omega Germany where a new SL dial was installed
> and some minor parts were replaced. Omega also returned all old parts.


Ah yeah, I think I remember seeing that one for sale, a bit ago. Congrats! I didn't realize it had the original parts, otherwise I may have thought about it more! I'm glad you got it though!



> Best regards,
> 
> Thomas


All the best,
eric


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*I wondered the same*



Pascal S said:


> The watch looks beautiful, but the dial is unfortunately incorrect, as evidenced by the gap between the dial markings and the chapter ring. Take a look at my example for comparison. Furthermore, there should be a "10" next to the index at 2 o'clock.
> 
> Since the original 376.0822 dial is so difficult to find (it personally took me almost two years to track one down), I assume that Omega Germany took the easy route and mounted a replacement part destined to a 176.0012. If it is among the old parts that were returned, I would be very curious to see what the original dial looks like...


As I mentioned in my previous response, I'm pretty sure I saw this one for sale several months back, and wondered the same thing, Pascal. I remeber wondering about that dial myself, but if you compare it to a 176.0012, you'll see that it's not quite the same.








The only other known examples of c.1045 Speedmasters with round dials are the Mk V, and the 176.0015 and 176.0016 "tonneau" case variants, which don't quite match, either, as we can see in this example from Chuck.










Seems a bit mysterious. Any other thoughts?

eric


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: I wondered the same*



eptaz said:


> As I mentioned in my previous response, I'm pretty sure I saw this one for sale several months back, and wondered the same thing, Pascal. I remeber wondering about that dial myself, but if you compare it to a 176.0012, you'll see that it's not quite the same.


I saw this watch as well, and then like now, I am fully convinced that the dial is _meant_ _for_ a 176.0012, as opposed to _from_ a 176.0012. The only difference is the absence of the grey half-circle on the bottom half of the 24 hour counter at 12, and I happen to have seen at least once a restored 176.0012 with such a dial. My guess is therefore that a batch of these dials were made as spare parts without the grey area on the subdial, and that somehow one of them found its way to Thomas' Grail. In any case, his dial is definitely not correct for the watch.


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: I wondered the same*



Pascal S said:


> I saw this watch as well, and then like now, I am fully convinced that the dial is _meant_ _for_ a 176.0012, as opposed to _from_ a 176.0012. The only difference is the absence of the grey half-circle on the bottom half of the 24 hour counter at 12, and I happen to have seen at least once a restored 176.0012 with such a dial. My guess is therefore that a batch of these dials were made as spare parts without the grey area on the subdial, and that somehow one of them found its way to Thomas' Grail. In any case, his dial is definitely not correct for the watch.


Ahh...I follow you now, Pascal. I guess that's as good a theory as any.

eric


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: I wondered the same*



eptaz said:


> I guess that's as good a theory as any.


And it is only that: a theory. But I have to admit that it is one I feel fairly confident in. Another possibility is that due to the shortage of dials for the 376.0822, Omega decided to recycle a few 176.0012 dials for that purpose. Unfortunately, the dial on the Grail offers more real estate than any other cal. 1045 Omega, hence the unmarked gap between dial and chapter ring.

The sad thing is that I've seen at least a couple of other 376.0822 with an incorrect dial of this type... o|


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## Kermit e Froggy (Jun 27, 2006)

Out of curiousity, it Omega ST376.0822 with a see thru' case back? Do u mind showing some pics ? 

Appreciate...


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*Nope.*



Kermit e Froggy said:


> Out of curiousity, it Omega ST376.0822 with a see thru' case back? Do u mind showing some pics ?
> 
> Appreciate...


No, it has a solid caseback. The ref.376.0822 houses the Lemania 5100-based Omega c.1045. Unlike the c.321 and 861, it's not much to see.









_Photo courtesy of ranfft.de_

It's just a tough, reliable, workhorse of a movement.

eric


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## Kermit e Froggy (Jun 27, 2006)

*Re: Nope.*



eptaz said:


> No, it has a solid caseback. The ref.376.0822 houses the Lemania 5100-based Omega c.1045. Unlike the c.321 and 861, it's not much to see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hi Eric, glad to hear your replies. U guys r really into the Grail ! Btw, has anyone attempted to replace the solid case back with a see thru' sapphire case?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: Nope.*



Kermit e Froggy said:


> Btw, has anyone attempted to replace the solid case back with a see thru' sapphire case?


Honestly, I doubt it woud work. The Grail's caseback is specific to this watch, just like the case which is thicker than the Moonwatch's. So the sapphire caseback might not be compatible with the presence of the calibre 1045's rotor.

Even though the Lemania 5100 has never been much of a looker, it would be fun to try though...


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## Kermit e Froggy (Jun 27, 2006)

Hi guys, I'm wondering if there's any reproduction model similar to the 376.0822 Speedy? Does 376.0822 comes in different dial color like Blue or white other than the black dial which u guys having now. b-)


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

*No and no.*



Kermit e Froggy said:


> Hi guys, I'm wondering if there's any reproduction model similar to the 376.0822 Speedy?


Well, I'm sure you could find any number of watches that share some characteristics but, no, the 376.0822 hasn't been reproduced. Now that the c.5100 movement is discontinued, the chances of a revival are slim slim slim.


> Does 376.0822 comes in different dial color like Blue or white other than the black dial which u guys having now. b-)


This particular model was produced in relatively low quantities in the mid to late 80s, and only in black.

eric


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: No and no.*



eptaz said:


> This particular model was produced in relatively low quantities in the mid to late 80s, and only in black.


Actually, that _might_ not be entirely correct.

The 376.0822 appeared in 1987 and well less than 2000 were made. Apparently the last 200 of them were sold in Italy as a limited edition in 1990, and it appears that they were two-tone models with a gold bezel and gold registers on black dial.

Here are a couple of pictures lifted from an eBay auction:


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## Kermit e Froggy (Jun 27, 2006)

Pascal S said:


> Honestly, I doubt it woud work. The Grail's caseback is specific to this watch, just like the case which is thicker than the Moonwatch's. So the sapphire caseback might not be compatible with the presence of the calibre 1045's rotor.
> 
> Even though the Lemania 5100 has never been much of a looker, it would be fun to try though...


O yes, now that u guys showed me the naked Lemania 5100 and comparing to the 321 n 861 movement.It's really so different. 321 is of a beautiful movement but the Lemania 5100 is a robust workhorse.



eptaz said:


> Well, I'm sure you could find any number of watches that share some characteristics but, no, the 376.0822 hasn't been reproduced. Now that the c.5100 movement is discontinued, the chances of a revival are slim slim slim.
> 
> This particular model was produced in relatively low quantities in the mid to late 80s, and only in black.
> 
> eric


I thought I saw one particular Omega with day date somewhere for sale. Hmmm...Anyone by any chance knows what is the retailing price back in the 80s as compared to now if there's a NOS? b-)


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Kermit e Froggy said:


> I thought I saw one particular Omega with day date somewhere for sale. Hmmm...Anyone by any chance knows what is the retailing price back in the 80s as compared to now if there's a NOS? b-)


I once saw an Omega pricelist from that era, and I remember that the Grail sold for around the same as the classic Moonwatch. The difference 20 years later is that one is very rare while the other one is not...


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## eptaz (Feb 10, 2006)

Pascal S said:


> I once saw an Omega pricelist from that era, and I remember that the Grail sold for around the same as the classic Moonwatch. The difference 20 years later is that one is very rare while the other one is not...


Yeah, if I recall correctly, the two were within $50 of each other, though I can't recall which was more expensive.

Funny what time can do...

eric


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## tgarn (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



Pascal S said:


> The watch looks beautiful, but the dial is unfortunately incorrect, as evidenced by the gap between the dial markings and the chapter ring. Take a look at my example for comparison. Furthermore, there should be a "10" next to the index at 2 o'clock.
> 
> Since the original 376.0822 dial is so difficult to find (it personally took me almost two years to track one down), I assume that Omega Germany took the easy route and mounted a replacement part destined to a 176.0012. If it is among the old parts that were returned, I would be very curious to see what the original dial looks like...


Sorry, couldn't post earlier - this is the original dial with crystal and ring...










Best regards

Thomas


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Aaah, here we do have the real deal. This is more like it! ;-)

Two sure ways to tell a real Grail dial from one destined to another 1045 Omega is the presence of a small luminous marker at 3 next to the day-date windows, and the "10" between the luminous marker at 2 and the Omega logo.

Thomas, have you ever thought about getting this original dial cleaned up and relumed? Your watch would look even better with its true face...


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

It appears that Thomas' Grail is not the only one to have received an incorrect replacement dial from Omega.

Have a look at this listing from Antiquorum's Omegamania auction! :rodekaart


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Time to shake the cobwebs off this thread and see if we have any new owners around. 

I know of at least one, but there might be other lurkers out there... ;-)


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

It may be missing its chapter ring, but its dial is *PERFECT*. |>

Nice catch! b-)


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

While parts for this beauty are hard to come by, many can still be found from several sources. It's a pity the dial is not among them...










It took me about 2 years to find this one! :roll:


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

The markers show a bit of aging, which I quite like actually, but the effect is slightly enhanced by the wrapping.


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## watchking1 (Jun 12, 2007)

> The example I have is PERFECT in every way (not just the dial... I haven't seen a cleaner (MINT) example anywhere), hence my desire to Bienne it... it's more than worth to do it right by factory specs/docs... the whole thing! :-!
> 
> When it returns from Bienne I'll take a boat load of high res pics with my 3 Ploprofs 166077s (as Icons) and my new DSSD! |>
> 
> Maybe throw in the 1516, 1511 and the 1510 too... then again, maybe not! :roll:


*Stop showboating ALB* :-!


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Here's mine. Bought it in June. 
Hands, dial, patina, bracelet, endpieces, everything correct.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Lovely! :-!

Congratulations on a terrific purchase. Out of curiosity, how much did you pay for it? (I like to keep track of market prices for this watch)


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## Stanford (Dec 29, 2006)

Mine isn't a recent acquisition but when it was serviced, about 18 months ago, the hour and minute hands were changed. The new hands are the correct replacements for this model (and I believe other 1045s) but were different to the originals - the new ones are stubbier.
I recently got around around to doing something about it by having the original hands refurbished and put back on (and I have been wearing it all week)

'New' hands:









Original hands:


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Good move! Watch looks righteous now. Who refurbished them? Mine are a little dirty, some specs, I wanted to do it but was afraid to mess with it.
Also, anyone know what the original box and papers look like?
Appreciate a pic if you have. Where could I get an original box, anyone know.
Yours doesn't have the Omega symbol in the hesalite does it? I have been told that
theoriginal didnt have it, but the replacement hesalite does?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

pitpro said:


> Also, anyone know what the original box and papers look like? Appreciate a pic if you have. Where could I get an original box, anyone know.


Mine came with this box, which is supposed to be the original one. It also contained the original warranty card, of which I have no picture at the moment. Only thing missing is the "Mark V" manual usually associated with this watch.






























pitpro said:


> Yours doesn't have the Omega symbol in the hesalite does it? I have been told that the original didnt have it, but the replacement hesalite does?


That's correct. Mine, still with its original crystal, doesn't have the Omega symbol. On the other hand, the replacement crystal I have in reserve does.

And regarding the hands, I much prefer the original ones to those Omega installs now, that are the versions initially made for earlier calibre 1045 watches. But apparently they don't install the right replacement dials either (as the Omegamania auction demonstrated)... :-(


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## frank19989 (Dec 23, 2007)

Everything original except the 1479 bracelet.


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Thanks for the info Paschal!
Would apppreciate anyone else that has info
on box and papers to chime in. I saw one
with a slide out box that was supposed to be original but can't find it anymore.
Any info about hands refurb would also be appreciated.
Are NOS long style hands available? 
NOS Dial available?



Pascal S said:


> Mine came with this box, which is supposed to be the original one. It also contained the original warranty card, of which I have no picture at the moment. Only thing missing is the "Mark V" manual usually associated with this watch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

pitpro said:


> I saw one with a slide out box that was supposed to be original but can't find it anymore.


I've seen the type of box you are talking about, and that is why I cannot be 100% positive that mine is original, though I have no reason to suspect it did not come with my watch. That being said, it is possible that the type of box was different depending on which market the watch was sold on, or the type of vendor making the sale. Maybe the slide out box was only supposed to ship the watch to the AD, the latter switching it for a more elaborate one like mine. Anything is possible...



pitpro said:


> Any info about hands refurb would also be appreciated.
> Are NOS long style hands available?


I haven't researched that yet, as the hands on mine are still pretty clean.



pitpro said:


> NOS Dial available?


Not from Omega, that's a certainty. :-(

But as I stated in an earlier post (with a picture attached), I was ultimately able to track a NOS dial down after a 2 year search. The seller had a second one which was sold to the late Chuck Maddox. I've also seen a couple pop up on eBay over the years, but those sold for more than $500 a piece!


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## Stanford (Dec 29, 2006)

pitpro said:


> Good move! Watch looks righteous now. Who refurbished them? Mine are a little dirty, some specs, I wanted to do it but was afraid to mess with it.
> Also, anyone know what the original box and papers look like?
> Appreciate a pic if you have. Where could I get an original box, anyone know.
> Yours doesn't have the Omega symbol in the hesalite does it? I have been told that
> theoriginal didnt have it, but the replacement hesalite does?


Hi pitpro,
You have a great looking piece - I don't think the hands need refurbishing. I had mine done by Swiss Time Services, who are the Omega Approved Service Centre for the repair of older and historical watches, in the UK.
As far as I know (and STS also checked) the original style hands are no longer available from Omega.
My hesalite does have the Omega symbol, but it isn't noticeable and, more importantly, it has the correct profile (plus I still have the original anyway ;-)).
I can't help with boxes, except to say that it seems Omega wasn't particularly rigid when it came to what boxes went with what watches.


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

I did a google search for "376.0822 original box papers" and
spent an hour looking at what's out there. The more I look
the more yours looks like the box they came in.(I saw 2 that looked the same) That's what I'll look for on eBay.


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## ST. (Nov 8, 2006)

My pride and joy... :-!


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow! That's an amazing picture. |>


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## ST. (Nov 8, 2006)

Pascal S said:


> Wow! That's an amazing picture. |>


Thank you Pascal. It's an amazing watch... ;-)


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Don't I know it! ;-)

It's really a pity so few were made...


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Pascal- Could I bother you to look
In the watchbox, what does the "Ref." tag beneath the tray the watch sits in say?
Thanks



Pascal S said:


> I've seen the type of box you are talking about, and that is why I cannot be 100% positive that mine is original, though I have no reason to suspect it did not come with my watch. That being said, it is possible that the type of box was different depending on which market the watch was sold on, or the type of vendor making the sale. Maybe the slide out box was only supposed to ship the watch to the AD, the latter switching it for a more elaborate one like mine. Anything is possible...


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## Grail (Feb 3, 2010)

n


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## Gravina (Nov 26, 2007)

OMEGA - A JOURNEY THROUGH TIME - Pag 621 - By Marco Richon!










Cheers from Brazil

Douglas Gravina


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

It's been almost a year already since the last roll call, so I thought I'd check to see if some other lucky owners had joined this board in the meantime... :-!

And of course, pictures are most welcome! b-)


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## john wilson (Feb 9, 2006)

Pascal S said:


> Some of you might already be familiar with the 376.0822 (a.k.a. "Grail") Speedmaster owners' page I set up on Frappr. For those who aren't, see my signature. I am now curious to see pictures of your personal examples, and hopefully lure a few lurkers to register their example on my page!
> 
> I'll start...


Hi Pascal. I remember this thread. I still don't have one.
How is your collection? I'ts always been top notch. One of the best.We don't see very much of you.
John Wilson


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## john wilson (Feb 9, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



eptaz said:


> All in good time, Pascal. Thanks for the pics to remind me why I really _need_ one.
> 
> In the meantime, I just have to make due with my poor man's variety.
> 
> ...


And this guy! One of the best! Ever. Hands down, unbeatable. Awesome photographer. Knowledge galore! And a great writer.You are missed Eric!
John Wilson


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*

Thanks for the kind words, John.

The collection is unfortunately slowly melting away after I had the bad idea to start my own business at the worst possible time. So now I'm left with no business, no job at the moment, and the cost of financing my project to relocate from France to the Netherlands. Not the best set of parameters to keep a watch collection going. And that's why I've made myself pretty scarce on the forum: too many temptations!

The crown jewels (including the Grail) are still here though, and I fully intend to keep the core my Lemania 5100 collection intact. Once I find a job, things will hopefully get back to normal...


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> It's been almost a year already since the last roll call, so I thought I'd check to see if some other lucky owners had joined this board in the meantime... :-!
> 
> And of course, pictures are most welcome! b-)


Had it for a while - never had the time to post some pics until now:


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## john wilson (Feb 9, 2006)

*Re: All in good time...*



Pascal S said:


> Thanks for the kind words, John.
> 
> The collection is unfortunately slowly melting away after I had the bad idea to start my own business at the worst possible time. So now I'm left with no business, no job at the moment, and the cost of financing my project to relocate from France to the Netherlands. Not the best set of parameters to keep a watch collection going. And that's why I've made myself pretty scarce on the forum: too many temptations!
> 
> The crown jewels (including the Grail) are still here though, and I fully intend to keep the core my Lemania 5100 collection intact. Once I find a job, things will hopefully get back to normal...


Wow. I'm so sorry to hear this Pascal. It's bad all over. I'm lucky to have a Goverment job driving the bus. You don't downsize buses.
The very first fixed route from pointe A to b PAYING a fair started in France.

John Wilson


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

mith321 said:


> Had it for a while - never had the time to post some pics until now:


Thanks a lot for sharing. :-!

Your example looks cosmetically perfect. It seems like you just got it new from an AD!


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## Ferrari 312T (Feb 9, 2006)

Very jealous

Have the 1450 bracelet not the watch!!!

Amazing piece. Have tried other brands but just love the old Omegas!


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> Thanks a lot for sharing. :-!
> 
> Your example looks cosmetically perfect. It seems like you just got it new from an AD!


thank you, its in good condition - its a pity that i don't wear it. i was thinking of selling it and getting something more wearable on a daily basis:think:


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

As a matter of fact, I do believe this watch is very comfortable to wear on a daily basis, just like a Speedy Pro can be. And despite the additional info on the dial, it's just as legible. But I also know that its extreme rarity is making some owners nervous, which is a pity. Obviously, I'm one of these people who believe that most watches are better off being on a wrist rather than in a vault. Mine is always part of my rotation.

So my advice is that you should definitely try wearing it for an extended period of time before making up your mind whether to sell it or not. You're among the lucky few to have managed to acquire this marvellous chronograph, so if you ever let it go, the chances of sourcing another one later are pretty limited.


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> As a matter of fact, I do believe this watch is very comfortable to wear on a daily basis, just like a Speedy Pro can be. And despite the additional info on the dial, it's just as legible. But I also know that its extreme rarity is making some owners nervous, which is a pity. Obviously, I'm one of these people who believe that most watches are better off being on a wrist rather than in a vault. Mine is always part of my rotation.
> 
> So my advice is that you should definitely try wearing it for an extended period of time before making up your mind whether to sell it or not. You're among the lucky few to have managed to acquire this marvellous chronograph, so if you ever let it go, the chances of sourcing another one later are pretty limited.


I agree 110%. Normally i wear all my watches on a rotation except the Grails but you have convinced me. So during my lunch break i went to the bank and pulled the Grail out of the safety deposit box:-! as a matter of fact i am wearing it right now :-d. lets see how we get along. If not i will sell her and put the money towards a Rolex - Sub, muhahaha.


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## pratee (Mar 3, 2011)

Hi, I just acquired the grail but the watch is still with my friend in FL so I need to wait till April to lay my hands on it  BTW I notice that minute hand has been replace to 1045-style hand. Is it possible to source the original one? I'm not sure if moonwatch hands can do since it looks very similar. Thanks.
Pratee


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Congratulations on getting yourself a Grail! |>

Sadly, the original hands (specific to the Grail) are near impossible to source, and that's why Omega has taken the unfortunate habit of replacing them by the stubbier ones found on other cal. 1045 chronographs. It's the same problem with the dials, as I see more and more example with the wrong type that Omega has been using as a replacement.

As for using Moonwatch hands, you can forget about it. Hands made for cal. 861/186X will not fit a cal. 1045 watch.

I wished Omega realized that with this watch they have a classic that deserves the to have spare parts made according to the original specs... o|


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## pratee (Mar 3, 2011)

Just have the watch in hand and found that the minute hand issue I mentioned earlier is a mis-understanding actually. So all parts are original as far as I know, included the 1450 bracelet. It's stunning!!


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Lovely, and all original indeed! Hands are the right ones, and the luminous markers on the original dial are in good shape with just the right amount of patina on them.

Great catch! :-!


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Pascal for bumping this thread back up so that a few new owners can share their wonderful watches, (and for sharing your 'reference' knowledge throughout!).

I can't believe the condition of the last few - truly rare and desirable examples of a great watch.

Thanks for sharing - hopefully one day I'll be lucky enough to find a nice one and be able to share it between such an appreciative crowd!

Cheers,
Andy


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## MarkEg (Feb 15, 2006)

Still got mine - although it nearly went a few months ago..
No cahnce of that now It's here to stay.

Cheers
Mark


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow! That is a *great* picture!

I wish mine looked this good, though it will eventually once I sort out the finances to have it worked on. Incidentally, I've been wearing mine over the last week after a month wearing my Speedy Pro, and the Grail still has one hell of a presence. It's really a wonder that this model didn't meet with more success back in the late 1980s. They sure don't look dated now!


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

A nice one went at a German auction amidst a myriad of other watches for about Eu3400, add 22% commission of course, only last week. Shame that I was strapped, but hey-ho, such is life. 

A friend of mine (I was in the army at the time) bought one in '88 (I've asked him about it and he's a bit vague but said the Speedmaster he bought worked 'like a stopwatch' rather than a normal chrono) and while getting changed in a washroom in Orly airport he left it on the washstand and forgot it when he went to get a pint....he went back later but it had gone...


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow! €3400 for this watch, even accounting the auctioneer's commission, is a bit of a bargain these days! Grails are pretty scarce at less than €4500, and the ones that go at these prices often have issues such as the original bracelet missing or a wrong dial...

I still remember a few years ago being pointed to a recently ended auction on eBay. A very nice 376.0822 has sold for about €1700 because the listing was so badly written that it had gone under almost everyone's radar! Someone got very lucky though...


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

one of the best and the rarest speedies ever made


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## kox (Feb 5, 2011)

Since it's my first post on this forum, I'll better make it a good one... and what better way than showing off my example of this lovely speedy. All original and with the 1450/809 bracelet.










And with some family members 










Best regards to you all
/Kim


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## Dr JonboyG (May 20, 2010)

Gravina said:


> OMEGA - A JOURNEY THROUGH TIME - Pag 621 - By Marco Richon!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So that one has the wrong dial?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

The dial on this dummy (this watch has no movement, as indicated by the position of the hand on the 24 hour subdial, which should indicate 10:00 PM and not 12:00 PM) is probably a prototype. Its layout is correct, but the luminous marker at 3 seems to be missing, and so does the "10" next to the luminous marker at 2. But what shocks me most on this watch is not the slightly weird dial but the incorrect hands: these are the ones used on the other calibre 1045 watches, as they are a bit chubbier and shorter than the Grail's originals, and the chrono's second hand should have a luminous diamond.

This picture is of the example that is on display at the Omega Museum and I know for a fact, through correspondence with Marco Richon himself, that some of the watches exhibited are not complete and are just meant to look like the real deal. What bothers me is that this seems to extend to such an authoritative book as Mr Richon's one, basically allowing Omega to do whatever with the aesthetics of this rare chronograph during service. That's a pity...


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> This picture is of the example that is on display at the Omega Museum and I know for a fact, through correspondence with Marco Richon himself, that some of the watches exhibited are not complete and are just meant to look like the real deal. What bothers me is that this seems to extend to such an authoritative book as Mr Richon's one, basically allowing Omega to do whatever with the aesthetics of this rare chronograph during service. That's a pity...


+ I00 - They should replace the photo on Richon's book.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Just had the original hands put on and an English day wheel.

Very happy with it;


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

beautiful, thank you for sharing:-!



andy_s said:


> Just had the original hands put on and an English day wheel.
> 
> Very happy with it;


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Great to see your watch back in its original configuration, Andy! :-!

It's really a pity that so many of these extraordinary chronographs have been defaced during service by the replacement of their original dial and hands. It's always a joy to see one look as it should do.


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Looks great Andy!
Where were you able to source the handset?
Also tell us the details of where you found your "grail"



andy_s said:


> Just had the original hands put on and an English day wheel.
> 
> Very happy with it;


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks chaps, the eagle eyed will be able to see that the second and minute chrono hand are a service set still, although the main min/hour hands are original and in very good condition - I have no idea why the service set was used on this particular one in the first place... 
I have the original second hand (all originals were supplied with the watch that was for sale on another forum) which is about .5mm longer, and the only original hand I don't have is the minute chrono hand - again, normally this would be .5mm longer. The service chrono hands are more similar to the originals than the main hour/minute hands and at some stage I would like to put the original chrono seconds hands back on, its fingery reach onto the 1/5sec chapter ring is lovely.
I think it's acceptable 'as is' though, and accept that sometimes we can't be too fussy!

Pascal - nice to hear from you again, hope all is well, here is a trio that I think you'll enjoy - the main variations of the 5100 - the 5100 in the EZM1, the 5012 in the SAAF and finally the 1045 in the Omega -


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

That sure is one serious trio you got there! I'm still kicking myself for not getting an EZM1 when I had the opportunity, as this watch has definitely grown on me to the point of getting near the top of my favourite Lemania 5100 chronos list. But the Grail still remains in a class of its own...

Thanks a lot for sharing.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

We haven't had a roll call for a while, so let's see if we have new owners having recently joined this exclusive club... ;-)

Pictures are most welcome! b-)


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> We haven't had a roll call for a while, so let's see if we have new owners having recently joined this exclusive club... ;-)
> 
> Pictures are most welcome! b-)


Pascal, does this count?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow! It sure does! :-!

Not too many people have managed to get one of these, the Italian market limited edition (200) Grail, made in 1990 to get rid of the unsold examples Omega still had in their inventory. It sounds incredible these days, but this watch was a bit of a flop on the market. Too big a watch I suspect, back when a simple Breitling Navitimer was widely seen as a ginormous watch (I know, as I bought mine at that time).

Feel free to post other pictures of that beauty! b-)


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## MarkEg (Feb 15, 2006)

The Omega Speedmaster Lemania 1045 (5100) Grail has been always been a tough watch to find. They just don't come up for sale very often..
You don't have to worry about the fakers as they seem to have left this one alone so far. Estimates are that only 1000 were made and the case design is quite different to the normal Speedmaster, thicker and with the pushers enclosed. 
I am on my second watch now and having recently sold the first one I bought.

*The main culprits for less than perfect versions seems to be Omega themselves.*

Examples that have been through Bienne, come back with alternative dial, hands, and bezel. Some of these changes are easy to spot other are not, so I thought I would list a few things I have noticed in my hunt for the Grail in case others may be looking for one.
Here are the differences

*The Bienne - replacement dial* 
Does not have the number 10, 
The minute markers are a smaller diameter and so leave a gap near the chapter ring markers. 
The luminous hour markers do not extent out as far as the chapter ring.
The day and date window is not enclosed - and is open to the right of the date.
The 24 hour dial has a shaded area from 6 to 18
The word OMEGA has a different font - and 
The S in Speedmaster is very different.

*The Bienne replacement hands*
The hour hand is fatter 
Both hands are not so sharp/pointed at the ends
On both hands the lume does not extend for the full length on the hand
The chronograph second hand does not have a Diamond lume section.

*The replacement Bezel*
It has an accent over the E, not present on the original
The 70 marker has a low dot, whereas the original has a dot to the right of the 70 
*
Bracelet and end pieces*
The original bracelet is the famous 1450 and ends are numbered 809 
whereas the newer replacements ends are numbered 808
I have seen some Grails with different replacement bracelets, including the standard 1171 speedy bracelet.

So all in all quite a few differences - I appreciate that parts are no longer available, however you would have thought that Omega could try harder to make replacements that keep the look of the watch the same.
Good luck finding one of these, if you do in my opinion it is well worth the search.
To anyone who has a Bienne refurbished watch - my advice is to keep the old parts safe..

Cheers

Mark

The Bienne Re-furb









My recent watch - the Chrono second counter has a broken end, but apart from that it is all original.

























*The one I sold recently*









And before the day wheel was changed


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm not at all convinced the accented bezel can be necessarily defined as a _replacement_ part. The reason is that I've seen several of these watches in their fully original configuration, including my own example, with that particular bezel. In the case of my watch, it never benefited from any cosmetic care, so the bezel is the one it left Bienne with.

My theory is that there has been two production batches for this part: an initial one (possibly of a thousand) without the accented character, and a second one with it. In the meantime, the watch turned out to be a bit of a flop on the market, so Omega got stuck with the remainder of the second production batch for future service needs. My personal guesstimate for the total number of these watches is that around 1,500 were made, and since the last 200 (the Italian market only version mith321 posted a picture of) got a specific solid gold bezel, that's another 200 bezel inserts freed up for future needs.

So what we possibly have now is Omega taking advantage of a part it already had in its inventory, and that since the day production of this chronograph ended. Given their reluctance to make new parts according to the original specs, I certainly don't see them ordering a new batch of bezels if they didn't have them already.

Finally, one last word regarding the bracelet: the 808 end pieces were those used on the regular Moonwatch, while the 809 were specific to the Grail. Once again, it appears that Omega doesn't have parts specific to this watch so owners who wish to track a ref. 1450 often have to use the 808 end pieces. Besides, according to Ofrei's website, the recommended replacement bracelet for the Grail is now ref. 1998-849.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

My original bezel was accent-less while its replacement was accented, although I agree with Pascal about them, a two batch order process seems to fit all cases.

Original bezel/crystal/chapter ring:









Separated: 









Service bezel:








(Sorry for the 'blow-up' poor quality)

And 1450/809 bracelet/SELs:









First time SELs were used in a mainstream Omega as well I believe.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

....oh, and Mith321 - that is a beauty - it actually looks much better 'on' than in the catalogue / auction pictures, much more toned down and actually a very nice departure!


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

andy_s said:


> First time SELs were used in a mainstream Omega as well I believe.


Actually that honor goes to the ref. 1447 bracelet and its ref. 805 end links.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Out of interest, here is a comparison between a few other Lemania powered chronographs;









(L-R: 1) Lemania SAAF in Omega derived case, 2) the Speed, 3) Sinn EZM1 in Heuer derived/inspired case)

As for dial to watch size: 









The more conventionally bezeled Sinn is about 41mm, dial diameter of 30mm while the Omega is also 41mm but has about 33mm of dial diameter due to the narrower bezel, albeit a fixed tachymetre. The Lemania 'wins', if you will, with a 41mm size and 34mm dial plus a moveable bezel.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Pascal S said:


> Actually that honor goes to the ref. 1447 bracelet and its ref. 805 end links.


Ah - I thought that one was only used on a limited edition hence the caveat of 'mainstream', cheers - my only sparse knowledge came from Robert-Jans article here - Speedmaster bracelets, straps etc which doesn't include that one either. Good stuff Pascal, cheers.


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

andy_s said:


> ....oh, and Mith321 - that is a beauty - it actually looks much better 'on' than in the catalogue / auction pictures, much more toned down and actually a very nice departure!


I think so too, my fovourite is the SS but this variant is not bad at all -


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope you still have your all steel example as well as the Italian market TT. I know that at one point you were thinking about selling it... :think:


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Well....
There are actually 3 different bezel inserts that are commonly
seen. 
The one you don't mention is the one on Mith321's NOS SS example posted on page 3
earlier in this thread and on MarkEg' watch that he "recently sold"
And on mine and others I have pictures of.
Look at the "7" in 70 and 75. No downpointing tail
on horizontal part of the 7. Different.

























Pascal S said:


> I'm not at all convinced the accented bezel can be necessarily defined as a _replacement_ part. The reason is that I've seen several of these watches in their fully original configuration, including my own example, with that particular bezel. In the case of my watch, it never benefited from any cosmetic care, so the bezel is the one it left Bienne with.
> 
> My theory is that there has been two production batches for this part: an initial one (possibly of a thousand) without the accented character, and a second one with it. In the meantime, the watch turned out to be a bit of a flop on the market, so Omega got stuck with the remainder of the second production batch for future service needs. My personal guesstimate for the total number of these watches is that around 1,500 were made, and since the last 200 (the Italian market only version mith321 posted a picture of) got a specific solid gold bezel, that's another 200 bezel inserts freed up for future needs.
> 
> ...


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Well spotted! The plot thickens... :-s

The silly thing is that the people in charge of purchasing those parts back in the days must be having a good chuckle reading our never-ending theories. Chances are that those differences were down to production batches, and possibly different suppliers, and seen by Omega as no big deal. After all, the company had managed to actually release a whole series of Speedmaster Professional with the infamous "220 bezel" without detecting the mistake! So minute differences in font were probably the least of their concerns...


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Just had time to do a few pics today:


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## pratee (Mar 3, 2011)

Is it possible that the bezel is interchangeable with moonwatch? I shot this photo and notice similarity of my 1990ish 863 bezel to previous posts.










The font on 863 bezel is crisp and looks "modern" with no serif, while the grail's font looks "vintage" with serif and drop-down "7" is consistent with 7 on date wheel also.


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

pratee said:


> Is it possible that the bezel is interchangeable with moonwatch? I shot this photo and notice similarity of my 1990ish 863 bezel to previous posts.
> 
> Hi pratee-
> Don't think so. Completely different font graphic on your 863 vs. 3rd type I mentioned in
> ...


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## Lou P (Feb 11, 2012)

Hello everyone,

This is my first post on Watch U Seek. I joined because I was invited by Pascal and because I wanted to participate in this wonderful thread. I'm still finding my way around and hoping that I can post a couple of photos and maybe occasionally make small contributions.

I own a few various Speedmasters and have been a big fan of the 376.0822 since I first discovered it on Chuck Maddox's site about 5 years ago. Understanding how difficult it was to find, I was not really looking, but last October I learned of a seller in my geographic area. He not only had one Grail, he had two!!!...and for the right price I could have my pick. Here they are to the left and right of my 105.012.










The one on the right has an English day wheel while the left one has a German day wheel. I did my reasearch as best I could and after a lot of soul searching I chose...I chose...

...the one with the German day wheel. Mainly because its hands look original. What do you think?


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Welcome Lou!
I remember seeing that deal.
You chose the right one.
Looks like a beauty.
Fun watch.
And you got the right bezel insert! :-!


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

I would say you chose the right one, the other has hands that are shorter but not the fatter ones usually replaced at service, so well done - it pays to look hard at these...


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Definitely the right one! ;-)

Happy you could join us, Lou. You are most welcome on the forum in general and in this thread in particular!


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## Anthony (Jan 14, 2007)

Why grail seems to have so many "big hands" ? I count at least 4 big hands, hour, minute and other two hands which are almost always overlapping each other at 12o´clock ? Whats is the purpose of these two hands ?


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## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

Anthony said:


> Why grail seems to have so many "big hands" ? I count at least 4 big hands, hour, minute and other two hands which are almost always overlapping each other at 12o´clock ? Whats is the purpose of these two hands ?


The "grail" is a chronograph, like the original Speedmaster professional, so when you start the chronograph function with the top pusher one of the "other two hands" will start sweeping, measuring elapsed seconds and making one revolution per minute.

The other of the "other two hands" will start moving once for each minute that the first sweep completes, so you can easily read the elapsed minutes by directly reading the position of the second sweep - the one with the cross-bar, or T. On other chronographs this accumulated minutes, up to 60 minutes, will often be in a small sub-dial.


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## the landlord (Apr 27, 2012)

Loving all of the photographs so far......

So here's mine -


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Lovely!









Thanks a lot for sharing...


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## helios71 (Feb 23, 2012)

Thanks to Pascal........
here is mine, bought one month ago! correct dial, hands, band, end links ...... i hope


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Everything looks correct! |>

Only the box is not the one this watch was sold in, and as a result it is possible that the (correct) manual might have been sourced separately. But as far as the watch itself is concerned, it is a magnificent example fully in its glorious original configuration.

Good catch! Congratulations! ;-)


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Very nice catch indeed, wonderful to see.

The box is very 'lux', maybe from an Italian version... 

Thanks helios & the landlord, nice to keep the thread alive and to see what's out there. Thanks for your efforts.


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## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

Hello Pascal and All - I've lurked long enough on your wonderful thread. I held off posting planning to get a light box that would do justice to my Speedie Automatic. But today was sort of cloudy and I was inside a white tent; the light was OK and so here's a pretty good shot. 

I've got the 1450 bracelet but I like the way it wears on this curved-ended leather strap.

I've also got a thing for all the old Speedmasters (Professionals and pre-Profs) in almost all vintage flavors. 

I'm happy to join this group of dedicated fans of this wonderful watch. :-!
----
-Ez


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Welcome aboard, Ez! That sure is one impressive collection you got there! :-!

I agree with you that the Grail looks very good on a strap too. I should know because after spending years on its 1450, I've decided to give mine a little change by putting it on a dark brown alligator strap. And I like the result very much. In fact, it felt almost like having a new watch...


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## mith321 (Jan 25, 2009)

beautiful collection, thank you for sharing, feel free to post more pics of those stunning pieces,


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)




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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Mine is still on its alligator strap, though with the days getting warmer it will soon be back on its 1450 bracelet.


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## michwir (Feb 12, 2012)

*End links*

hi all,

thanks for the many informations about the wacht I like to wear most.

something I am wondering: the end links of serviced HGs are often seen grinded ? Isn't it possible to remove the bracelet without destroing the end links?

best michael


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*



michwir said:


> ...something I am wondering: the end links of serviced HGs are often seen grinded ?


Holy cow! Serviced by whom!











michwir said:


> Isn't it possible to remove the bracelet without destroing the end links?


It's perfectly possible if you are using the right tool! My HG currently sits on an alligator strap, and I removed the bracelet myself without causing any damage whatsoever. I just had the small enough Bergeon-like tool and I paid attention to what I was doing. The person responsible for the damage pictured above must have been either blind or suffering from an advanced stage of Parkinson's disease!


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

*Re: End links*








Good grief, when the 6767 won't do - go straight to the grinder...

No. No need for this - perhaps someone put shoulderless spring-bars in or something and made a hash getting them out again.


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## michwir (Feb 12, 2012)

*Re: End links*

Hi,

I imagine as cause, a before installed wrong (Rolex ?) pin without shoulder, or too long pin, which the service could not remove in another way as to grind the end link?
but I remember have seen it also on other watches.

My other HG , never serviced ( is nearly unworn with red seal and blue wachs on the back,) here it is no problem to remove the bracelet. The original pins are ok.

cheers michael


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*

You have two of these? Lucky man! :-!

Would you care to share some photos of that fine pair?


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## michwir (Feb 12, 2012)

*Re: End links*

with my first one I had not only the luck to get her, but also the bad luck that her state for me excludes to wear her .
For to wear she had to go to service, not only not to know which service I can trust, also seal would be broken. 
Therfore she must live without. I have forgotten to bring the orginal box from bank safe, so you see the box from the second one.
hence, I had to find a second one to wear. indeed, this has service hands, but, however, so far I can judge it, dial , bezel and bracelet orginal. perhaps I will find some original hands, but it doesn't bother me at the time.
enjoy it.


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## mt1tdi (Oct 25, 2010)

*Re: End links*

Wow! Let me know if you get tired of either of them.


----------



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*

Very impressive! b-)

It's a pity the second one inherited the incorrect service hands, but I confirm that both dial and bezel are original for this watch. As for the first one, I'm just speechless...

Thanks a lot for sharing! :-!


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## michwir (Feb 12, 2012)

*Re: End links*

same with the end links on thebay 350560172423,


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## helios71 (Feb 23, 2012)

*Re: End links*

Hi all,
thanks again to Pascal for the clear answers, i would ask to other Grail's owners, what it the best stell band to replace the 1450.
My intention is to took off it to conserve and replace with 1479/812, 1171/633 or others suitable, the problem is decide which in particular referring to the end links adaptibility to the Grail case.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

*Re: End links*



helios71 said:


> Hi all, thanks again to Pascal for the clear answers, i would ask to other Grail's owners, what it the best stell band to replace the 1450. My intention is to took off it to conserve and replace with 1479/812, 1171/633 or others suitable, the problem is decide which in particular referring to the end links adaptibility to the Grail case. Thanks in advance.


IMO, the 1171/633 looks almost the same once installed but I had to take a pair or pliars and gently reduce the distance between the top and bottom of the end links so they wouldn't rattle.



michwir said:


> something I am wondering: the end links of serviced HGs are often seen grinded ? Isn't it possible to remove the bracelet without destroing the end links?


The 809s that this 1450 came with were also shaved down, but I appreciated how much easier that made removing them and I also take it as a sign that the watch was serviced at least once in its lifetime. What's the difference between the 809s and the 808s that Ofrei carries?

Apologies in advance for the lousy picture quality. I got lucky gambling on the Bay. Seller in Turkey with about 4 previous sales. None of the photos showed the sweep hand reset whereas all his other watches for sale on his non-Bay website were zeroed out. I was prepared for problems on receipt but it was listed with 14 days to return for money back and it was covered under PayPal/Bay protection. When it arrived, I recorded the opening in case some other watch came out of the box...or a brick. So far, all functions work perfectly and the bracelet is a mint 1450/809s but I already took it off and put on an 1171/633s...I'm guessing that's something obscene to the purists, but I think I'm just going to flip the bracelet. IMO, it's practically indistinguishible from the 1171 unless you turn it over. I'm taking it to my watch guy to open it up and check the movement and make sure the caseback is 376.0082 and not 176.0012 (etc). Does everything else on this one look Kosher to you guys?

I already had a NOS English day wheel and just ordered a NOS date wheel (Part 1580) because I never really liked the aged yellowing thing. The only thing that bothers me more than 2 yellowed wheels is one yellow and one white. Anybody suggest leaving the original yellowish date wheel and swapping in the yellowed English day wheel from my Mark 4.5 before I sell it instead of just installing matching NOS (white) day & date wheels? I understand the appeal of matching both wheels to the hour markers and I'm open to that since there are no more Grail dials, let alone any that aren't aged. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice. One of these days I'll get a better camera than my wife's phone.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*

Funnily enough, I was following that sale on eBay. The watch is 100% correct, as far as I can tell, and what's more in great overall condition. Well done! :-!

I think you'll ultimately regret selling the 1450. Many Grail owners wear theirs on a 1171 so that they can keep their 1450 pristine, but it would take a gun to their head to have them consider selling this bracelet. As for me, I actually wear mine either on its original 1450 or on an alligator strap. As far as the end pieces are concerned, the ref. 809 is specific to the Grail because it is slightly thicker to account for the bulkier case of this chronograph compared with the Moonwatch. The 808 are said to be compatible, but I've heard from some people that they need to be slightly filed in order to fit properly. Anyway, if you decide to stick to your idea to flip your 1450, please send me a PM as I know someone who might be willing to crawl naked over broken glass to find one of these with the correct ref. 809 end pieces!

As far as replacing the day wheel, I see no problem with that. The part is easily found, and it's not specific to this particular model.

Anyway, welcome to the club... ;-)


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

*Re: End links*

Thanks, Pascal. PM on the way. What are your thoughts on the choice between replacing both day & date wheels with white NOS to match the hands or just swaping in a yellowed day wheel from the Mark 4.5 to match the yellowed date wheel and the markers? The only givens are that I'm definitely putting in an English day wheel and matching both wheels either to be white or yellowed.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*

Personally, I would favor using a yellowed day wheel. White day and date wheels might look a bit too conspicuous if your dial indices have patina, which is likely on a 25 year old watch.


----------



## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

*Re: End links*

Thanks, Pascal. I have another question if you don't mind. Is there any concern about a gasket when my watchmaker cracks this open to check it out? Is there one, and if there is, can they be sourced easily if the old one has to come out once it's opened up?


----------



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

*Re: End links*

The caseback uses a standard gasket, so if there's any issue when opening the case, your watchmaker won't have any problem replacing the part by a new one. No cause for alarm here!


----------



## SteveW62 (Apr 2, 2006)

Here's mine









I've changed the day/date wheels for English Fortis versions.I'm amazed not more people are putting black wheels in there. I think it looks great.

S.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

HERESY! 

(But I like it!)


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## mt1tdi (Oct 25, 2010)

That does look very good.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I quite like the effect of the black day and date wheels, and it's not the first time I see such a mod, but personally I will stick with the original configuration on mine. 

On the other hand, it's a pity that your watch has to make do with those ridiculous service hands... :-(


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## helios71 (Feb 23, 2012)

Finally i got the original box.....


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

SteveW62 said:


> Here's mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That does look really good. Any tips you can provide for procurring those wheels near NYC?


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## michwir (Feb 12, 2012)

hi,
yes it is done, also the correct box, outer box and ...........



...still searching orginal hands for her sister..

cheers michwir


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

*Voila! Le Grail de Steve*

Sorry for the lousy picture quality, but here's another convert to the SteveW62 Grail.


----------



## nishant786 (Nov 5, 2010)

*Re: Voila! Le Grail de Steve*

I know this is a question being asked by thousands who have looked at this threat with equal parts of jaw dropping admiration and hulk green envy. But I have to ask. What tips do you experts have for people like us who have been searching for this, the most perfect Speedmaster Professional. Where to look. How to find one?


----------



## nishant786 (Nov 5, 2010)

Thank you so much for this. This really is a very important post for some of us looking around for one. Reading this I now realise how many wrong ones have been sold. And with no parts to correct them it really would be a big mistake for anal ones like me. Thanks again.



MarkEg said:


> The Omega Speedmaster Lemania 1045 (5100) Grail has been always been a tough watch to find. They just don't come up for sale very often..
> You don't have to worry about the fakers as they seem to have left this one alone so far. Estimates are that only 1000 were made and the case design is quite different to the normal Speedmaster, thicker and with the pushers enclosed.
> I am on my second watch now and having recently sold the first one I bought.
> 
> ...


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## rowbie (Aug 28, 2009)

Here's a few pics of mine. It was purchased through tz-uk forum in the UK and from a member that's already posted pics of it in this thread. 
So same watch, but new owner and fresh pics. It's awesome and due to it's rarity, it's going nowhere!


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## tonez76 (May 6, 2012)

hi what do u think about this watch?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

A very nice "Liberace Grail" example! :-!

Made exclusively for the Italian market in the wake of the lack success of the regular 376.0822 (probably due to its size, viewed as too large at the time; a year later, Omega came up with the "reduced"), this watch was limited to 200 examples. Nowadays, they are less desirable than the plain version, but personally I certainly wouldn't mind acquiring one at some point. 

A bit flamboyant, but still a great chronograph!


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

tonez76 said:


> hi what do u think about this watch?
> 
> View attachment 1097986
> 
> ...


I think you should sell it to me! Ha.
How did you happen to acquire it?


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

a great tread, so much wonderful Grail's 
and now its time to show you my 2 Grails, the "Liberace Grail" is that one from tonez76.
normaly i dont like gold on watches, but on the Grail its just incredible and i must have it ;-)


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

That REALLY is a lovely pair! :-!

I also see that you've managed to put your hands on an original replacement dial. A good thing to have now that Omega is routinely defacing Grails by putting the ill-suited "Mark 4.5" dial in place of the original. Someone in Bienne deserves to be beaten with sticks for coming up with such an idiotic idea!


----------



## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

thank you 

yes, to get a NOS dial for the Grail was a really lucky thing and i'm very happy to have one.
i also can not understand why OMEGA is using the Standart 4.5 dial. To have a Grail with
a nice and clean original dial and hands is a priceless advantage. 

cheers
patrik


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## Aska Chee (Apr 20, 2012)

Pascal S said:


> The dial on this dummy (this watch has no movement, as indicated by the position of the hand on the 24 hour subdial, which should indicate 10:00 PM and not 12:00 PM) is probably a prototype. Its layout is correct, but the luminous marker at 3 seems to be missing, and so does the "10" next to the luminous marker at 2. But what shocks me most on this watch is not the slightly weird dial but the incorrect hands: these are the ones used on the other calibre 1045 watches, as they are a bit chubbier and shorter than the Grail's originals, and the chrono's second hand should have a luminous diamond.
> 
> This picture is of the example that is on display at the Omega Museum and I know for a fact, through correspondence with Marco Richon himself, that some of the watches exhibited are not complete and are just meant to look like the real deal. What bothers me is that this seems to extend to such an authoritative book as Mr Richon's one, basically allowing Omega to do whatever with the aesthetics of this rare chronograph during service. That's a pity...


Hi Pascal S,
I think the dial did used on some 376.0822. Very similar but abit different from _Bienne Re-furb_, No shaded area from 6 to 8 on the 24 Hour Dial.
According to the previous owner, the watch was serviced in Germany in 2010. All the original parts like dial & hand with me..
Pls find the pic:


----------



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

The post of mine you quoted was replying to a post showing a Grail with a dial that was undoubtedly a prototype, as it is the right size for this watch but without the "10" marking next to the index, and therefore completely different to the one you posted a picture of. The latter has already been seen on several occasions in this thread, including on its first page and the issue is that the dial size is obviously unsuited for this watch.



tgarn said:


> OK, back on topic - a fellow German WIS decided to part with his like-new
> 376.0822 and 1450 bracelet and I was the lucky buyer. The seller just had
> the watch serviced at Omega Germany where a new SL dial was installed
> and some minor parts were replaced. Omega also returned all old parts.





tgarn said:


> Sorry, couldn't post earlier - this is the original dial with crystal and ring...





Pascal S said:


> It appears that Thomas' Grail is not the only one to have received an incorrect replacement dial from Omega.
> 
> Have a look at this listing from Antiquorum's Omegamania auction! :rodekaart


To summarize, the *only* original dial for the grail is this one:









Photo credit: Watchco

In the mid-2000s, Omega unfortunately started replacing dials on the Grail during service with two versions of the same dial design:









Photo credit: Watchco

The first one is unknown in origin, though I had seen it on two distinct occasions on a "Mark 4.5" 176.0012. This dial is the one mounted on the Grail that was sold during the 2007 Omegamania Auction:









Photo credit: Antiquorum

The second one is simply the original dial for the "Mark 4.5". And to add insult to injury, Omega is also replacing the original long thin hands with the shorter and stubbier ones that were used on the 176.0012 to 176.0016 series of chronographs.

Frankly, I think whoever at Omega came up with the idea of defacing the Grail with these parts should be beaten with sticks! :-|


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## Aska Chee (Apr 20, 2012)

Hi Pascal, opps. My bad for missing that out , i thought i have discover something....


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

No worry. I really blame Omega for making a mess of things since the mid-2000s.

One thing that really doesn't help is the original dial's propensity to have its luminous indices turn to dust. It appears that at least a production batch of these dials, if not all of them, doesn't age all that well.










My own example pictured above is missing two indices (at 3 and 4 o'clock), and it took me years to unearth a correct NOS dial.


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

> and it took me years to unearth a correct NOS dial.


i think whe have the NOS dial from the same source..


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

That's more than likely. Not that many people have those lying around... ;-)


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## mt1tdi (Oct 25, 2010)

You guys are killing me! I still want one of these.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Well, mith321 is selling his magnificent example if you are tempted.


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## Aska Chee (Apr 20, 2012)

Hi Pascal, thanks and you are right that its luminous indices really a problem..I have seen many grail dials are having this issue including mine. May i know where i can find more info/technical data on Lemania 5100 movement? Since you are the expert..I have no luck in seaching this forum, also what & why this movement famous and lots of people call this movement a work horse?

Also for this movement, how many years of usage do you recommend before we neeed to send in for servicing if it's a daily wearer?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I can point you to this page written by my late friend Chuck Maddox: Why I like the Lemania 5100. This is a very good introduction and points out many of the features that make this chronograph movement unique.

As far as I am concerned, I fell in love with this calibre because it is the last of the dying breed of purely utilitarian chronograph. It is a synthesis between two seemingly irreconcilable goals: maximum accuracy under duress and low cost of manufacture. As a result, it pioneered many technical solutions, such as the large use of Delrin® acetal resin. Nowadays, many lesser informed enthusiasts refer to these parts as plastic, but they are missing the fact that the choice of this material was widely dictated by technical considerations, such as its self lubricating properties.

In the wake of the quartz tsunami, consumer tastes have changed, and now we expect a mechanical chronograph movement to look good and pack some "nobility" through the use of column wheels and fancy finishes. The Lemania 5100 didn't bother with such trivial considerations. It was conceived to do a job and to do it well. What's more, it remains to this days the most legible chronograph movement ever made in large quantities. It also has some distinguished history, and its Omega incarnation, calibre 1045, was successfully tested by NASA in 1978 alongside the Moonwatch during the latter's re-certification. While the American Space Agency finally decided to stick with the Speedy Pro, the Lemania 5100 finally travelled to space with Sinn and Fortis. It also powered many issued chronographs for the Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain, South Africa, Venezuela and Australia. That's why this movement is often referred to as a "workhorse". Not necessarily pretty to look at, but unbeatable when it comes to get the job done...

Finally, to answer your last question I would get the watch serviced every 5 years, though up to 7 is acceptable for this movement.


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## mt1tdi (Oct 25, 2010)

Pascal S said:


> Well, mith321 is selling his magnificent example if you are tempted.


I made the mistake of purchasing some like NOS watches, but couldn't bring myself to wear them. I'll wait for a worn but excellent condition one that I can enjoy.


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## Aska Chee (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank You Master Pascal! Really learn alot from you...


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## Aska Chee (Apr 20, 2012)

mt1tdi said:


> I made the mistake of purchasing some like NOS watches, but couldn't bring myself to wear them. I'll wait for a worn but excellent condition one that I can enjoy.


Hi mt1tdi, May be you should consider to sell it back to Omega, for display in the Museum..haha


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I remember something I wrote a few years ago that summarizes very well what I feel about the Lemania 5100. If I may, I will quote myself here:



> I think the thing that attracted me the most with this movement, beyond its unequalled legibility and well-documented sturdiness, is the fact that it's the last member of a dying breed. This movement was conceived with only utilitarian considerations in mind. It had to be accurate, dependable, and cheap to make. Lemania managed to combine those three qualities brilliantly before the quartz tsunami redefined the watch manufacturing landscape, and consumer expectations, forever.
> 
> Nowadays, nobody would try to make such a movement because it no longer makes financial sense in our era. Quartz is more accurate and way cheaper, and most nostalgics who are ready to buy new mechanically-powered chronographs want something more: aesthetics. As much as it pains me to reach that conclusion, building an automatic chronograph has become a pointless exercise which can only be justified by adding a nice packaging to the core function of measuring time. Be it only thanks to a sapphire caseback, or going further with the addition of so-called "noble" complications such as a column wheel, or some cosmetic enhancements (Geneva waves, Perlage, blued parts, etc), the mechanical movement has been dragged into the limelight from the shadows of backstage. And it is now expected to star while still managing the show!
> 
> ...


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi you all,
my english is horrible and you have the permission to laugh  but i enjoy nearly every day this thread and the fantastic pics. Here i want you show my grail, personally hunted in germany. The price was low, but three indizes were missing. So i am soory to show this dial. It is recolored, but this watch is special. On the wrist it is unique and i enjoy it every day.










so you understand:
I am searching for an newer original dial.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

benaja said:


> so you understand:
> I am searching for an newer original dial.


First of all welcome to the forum and to this thread. And your English is perfectly understandable! :-!

Indices falling to dust are a common problem on the Grail. It appears that the production batch of these dials was extremely fragile, which is a pity really because it prompted Omega to replace them with incorrect service parts. My own original example is missing two indices at 3 and 4, which led me to a long quest for a spare dial.

The good news is that it is possible to find one, as proven by my eventual success.

But the bad news is that it will likely take you a loooooong time to unearth it and it is likely to end up being very expensive (the last one I've seen got sold for €450, and that was already a while ago!).

Good luck!


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi Pascal,
do you know a possibility or a source to get one dial? The price is ok, if the dial is proper, but find one is the problem. Till it happens i will live with my solution, it looks vintage and is the first dial, the first bezel, crystal and all in all authentic. I wear the watch every day, indeed the RLX have to wait in the box.
So long, i will enjoy the fantastic pics and stories in the www.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I've sent you a PM. The information is 7 years old, but that's the only lead I can provide apart from keeping an eye on eBay...


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

thanks, i will try the contact.


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

no chance, THEY ARE SOLD OUT and no one have one so i have to live with mine.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Don't despair. I've heard that reply many times before stumbling upon my source. The fact that he no longer has any doesn't mean that you won't be able to find one eventually. I'll keep an eye out for you.


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

Hi you all,
i have a question about the movement numbers. Isn't it possible, that all original movement of the grail have a number that begins with 48.231.XXX ? I have seen in the net that some shown examples have these 4-5 first digit. What number do your grail have?

one example, this is not mine


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

While mine is also a 48.231.XXX, I know of original examples with 47.387.XXX, 48.168.XXX and 48.233.XXX (3 examples, including an Italian market limited edition) numbers.


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

okay, no context, i have thought, that it is possible, that omega is selling theyre last 5100/1045 in one term. So they numbering the movements in the connection of the total production. lol about my english, if you understand, please help me to write correct


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Your English is fine. If that makes you feel more comfortable, be aware that English is a second language for me as well...

Omega used the calibre 1045 for more than 15 years, with the Speedmaster "Mark 4.5" (ref. 176.0012) being produced for almost 10 years of that period, so I'm not really surprised at the disparity of reference numbers for the Grail, even though it was only produced for one year (if you exclude the limited 1990 run of "Liberace Grails" for the Italian market done at Omega's then exclusive distributor De Marchi's request, and which allowed to get rid of unsold stock).


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

Here's my 376.0822 movt #


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

So another 48.233.XXX...

By the way, I'd blur the last three digits if I were you.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Pascal S said:


> So another 48.233.XXX...
> By the way, I'd blur the last three digits if I were you.


Same here: 48233XXX. BTW, what's you main concern about posting full serial numbers?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Pictures and/or serial numbers can be used by scammers. Better safe than sorry, especially when it comes to such a sought after model...


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Pascal S said:


> Pictures and/or serial numbers can be used by scammers. Better safe than sorry, especially when it comes to such a sought after model...


I took your advice, but I'm trying to understand the specific concern. It's obvious what they could do with pictures, but it's not clear to me what they could do differently knowing the full serial # of a watch you own that they couldn't do just filling in arbitrary numbers for the last 3 digits? I'm not asking rhetorically; I'm genuinely trying to understand the concern.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Okay, say you're a potential buyer of such a rare watch. Opportunities to buy one are not really common, so you want to take all necessary precautions before buying. And suddenly you stumble upon some ad listing one of these chronographs for sale. For a full-set example, prices in $ are slowly nearing 5-digits figure, so we're talking a healthy amount of cash here. One of the things you may do as a buyer is request a ****load of hi-res pictures, including some of the movement with its fully visible serial number. But if such pictures are easily available on the internet, this might be an incentive for some dodgy people to cash-in on this situation by pretending to sell a watch they never had. And while they may get away with listing an ad with masked serials, once contacted by a reasonably clever buyer, they can't maintain the deception once they are asked to provide a version of the picture where serial numbers are plainly visible.

Paranoid? Maybe. But as I said better safe than sorry with this kind of thing...


----------



## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Thanks, Pascal. That's not the part I was asking about, though (I already acknowledged above that it's obvious what someone could do with pictures). I'm just curious to know the rationale behind guarding the disclosure of the full serial # in a post by not typing it out fully. What is it that a dodgy person could do knowing my full serial # that he couldn't do if he had to make up a # between 000 an 999 if I XXX'd out the last 3 digits in a forum post? I already took your advice in typing mine out, but I'd like to better understand the specific concern about typing out full serial numbers; it's something I've wondered about before, but this is the first time it's come up in a thread where I could ask without derailing the topic of conversation.


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

my "standart" Grail has 48233... and the liberace has 48231...


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

XF-56 said:


> my "standart" Grail has 48233... and the liberace has 48231...
> View attachment 1324306


 Interesting- You would think liberace would have later serial since they were using up parts for the last "200"


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

i was a bit surprised that the liberace not have a later serial.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

I'm not that surprised actually. It is perfectly possible that the Liberace used parts from watches that remained unsold for a while, including early Grails. Furthermore, since these 200 watches were destined to be the very last calibre 1045 chronograph coming out of Bienne, they probably cleared out whatever assembled movements they still had lying around...


----------



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

FreelanceWriter said:


> I'm just curious to know the rationale behind guarding the disclosure of the full serial # in a post by not typing it out fully. What is it that a dodgy person could do knowing my full serial # that he couldn't do if he had to make up a # between 000 an 999 if I XXX'd out the last 3 digits in a forum post? I already took your advice in typing mine out, but I'd like to better understand the specific concern about typing out full serial numbers; it's something I've wondered about before, but this is the first time it's come up in a thread where I could ask without derailing the topic of conversation.


Sorry for not fully understanding your question. It's just an extra precaution, so that scammers cannot claim ownership of a watch whose existence would already be documented online. Careful prospective buyers might make the effort to contact either an allegedly "previous" owner or a gentleman supposedly being known under another name on another forum, but many people are too careless or lazy to go the extra mile...

It's really easy getting burnt, and WUS even has a forum where scams are denounced and described in details. We may believe that because we are knowledgeable we are immune, but most people are not.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Pascal S said:


> Careful prospective buyers might make the effort to contact either an allegedly "previous" owner or a gentleman supposedly being known under another name on another forum, but many people are too careless or lazy to go the extra mile...


In that case, wouldn't it be more helpful than potentially harmful to any diligent prospective buyers for real owners to post their full serial numbers (without pictures)?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Actually, I don't think so. 

I've seen many cases of people falling for the trick of someone posting on one forum with a name plucked from another and selling a watch they allegedly own while referring to "their posts" in the old forum. Then they will come up with some story that they've been banned from the previous board, and in their haste to score a good deal many buyers will not bother to check that story. Keeping complete serial numbers confidential forces the scammer to come up with more details, like photos that he obviously won't have. I'm not saying that this is foolproof, but it certainly doesn't hurt to play it safe.

In any case, the advice to buyers is always the same: do your bloody homework!


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

In case anybody's interested:

Omega Speedmaster Automatic

Wrong bezel?


----------



## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Not necessarily "wrong", as it appears that several of these watches were shipped with an accented bezel. Mine is one, but I have seen at least half a dozen others. Since most service bezels are of a similar design, my personal guess is that they are from a second production batch and part of latter made it to some the production watches. But it is definitely a fact that most Grails don't have the accent on "TACHYMETRE"...


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## benaja (Dec 14, 2013)

to Die 4 (Dienstag der 4. März in german)










im searching for a original dial


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

benaja said:


> to Die 4 (Dienstag der 4. März in german)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


great watch  an original dial in excellent condition will cost you an arm and a leg more than 800$


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

georges zaslavsky said:


> great watch  an original dial in excellent condition will cost you an arm and a leg more than 800$


George, is it a given that if you do find a NOS dial, the lume will still be shot just by virtue of age? And is it chronological _age_ or cumulative exposure to light, meaning one that's been in the dark could still have life in it? (Thanks in advance.)


----------



## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

Does anyone know the Omega part numbers for the correct crystal replacement, and 376.0822 dial.

I recall seeing a picture of an Omega crystal in modern packaging with part number and bar code.

I guess the replacement dials pre-date Omega's bubble-pack packaging, so perhaps they have a different part number coding.

Still, if anyone knows the part numbers please post them up - if only for reference purposes in the thread.

Thanks all!
Ez


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

The reference is *063PW5173* and it is available from Otto Frei.


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## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

Pascal S said:


> The reference is *063PW5173* and it is available from Otto Frei.


Thanks Pascal! That is for the crystal.

Do you happen to know a part number or reference for the (unobtainable, correct) dial?


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## Lou P (Feb 11, 2012)

Hello fellow Grail owners and enthusiasts. Haven't posted here in a while. Trying my Grail on an alligator strap for the first time and thought I'd share. It's a 22mm that I've squeezed in, so there's no chance of any springbar showing between those slightly wider that 20mm lugs (I measured mine at 20.5mm).


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## qtip.416 (Jul 3, 2013)

oops, misread the title and added photos of my modern speedy.


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## oddboy (Jun 3, 2014)

good day fellas! Is it too late to join the party? here's mine, fresh off the boat.

I have a few questions about some service parts I'm looking at - is this a good place to post them, or should I start a new thread?


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

congrats...

for which parts you are looking ?


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## iLuveketchup (Aug 28, 2014)

Such a beautiful watch! Hope to come across one someday.


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## oddboy (Jun 3, 2014)

@XF-56, well, I'd love to find a set of hands, and not the service hands. I need a few new links for the bracelet, but I think I have a lead on those. Was curious for opinions on swapping the day wheel for an English one (keeping the original for good measure). Generally wondering what other serviceable parts would be worth finding before the well starts to dry up, with omega stopping distribution next year.


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## XF-56 (Jul 15, 2013)

To find some Parts (dial and hands) for the Grail is the biger challange than find the watch. Far as i know the links for the bracelet are still available and pusher's, crown, bezel and crystal as well. Movement parts are also still available but i dont know which parts exactly needed to servicing the Kal.1045. To find the hand's will be a challange, there is only one Speedmaster with the same hands, the MARK-V. Maybe you find one to remove the hands.... ;-)


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## gdfhbv (Nov 6, 2014)

*Re: I wondered the same*

_I know, I know; it's not the same, but it'll have to do...for now._


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## pitpro (May 19, 2009)

*Re: I wondered the same*

anyone know why these dials are not marked with 
the "T" for Tritium?


----------



## oddboy (Jun 3, 2014)

*Re: I wondered the same*



pitpro said:


> anyone know why these dials are not marked with
> the "T" for Tritium?


+1, I'd like to know too! curious!


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## blueline1226 (May 26, 2015)

*Re: I wondered the same*

I'm dying to get my hands on one of these, whats the price of these going for now?


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

oddboy said:


> @XF-56, well, I'd love to find a set of hands, and not the service hands. I need a few new links for the bracelet, but I think I have a lead on those. Was curious for opinions on swapping the day wheel for an English one (keeping the original for good measure). Generally wondering what other serviceable parts would be worth finding before the well starts to dry up, with omega stopping distribution next year.


I saw an OEM crystal with the chapter ring attached on ebay last year and snapped it up. The same seller has since listed a few more. Still hoping to find a NOS dial even though the old lume is still surprisingly better than I thought originally. I (barely) use a crap phone but I gotta remember to have my wife take a good picture of my setup because I think the black Fortis day & date wheels look infinitely better than the white Omega wheels.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

*Re: I wondered the same*

For some reason, I can't copy/paste a quote to my last post.


blueline1226 said:


> I'm dying to get my hands on one of these, whats the price of these going for now?


I'm guessing around $7K. The last one I saw up for auction got pulled by the seller with about a day left at $5,500 because he was afraid it wasn't going to go much higher, but I think there would have been a bidding war if he'd have left it up.


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## blueline1226 (May 26, 2015)

Damn I guess this really will be my grail watch. I'll have to settle with a regular speedy till then :-/


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## VintageTimepiece (Mar 21, 2016)

Mine says hello!


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

That's the one that was just listed on ebay a few weeks ago by timelimit, right?
Here's the picture that I never got around to taking before. The day & date wheels have been changed to white-on-black Fortis wheels.


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## VintageTimepiece (Mar 21, 2016)

FreelanceWriter said:


> That's the one that was just listed on ebay a few weeks ago by timelimit, right?
> Here's the picture that I never got around to taking before. The day & date wheels have been changed to white-on-black Fortis wheels.


Beautiful example of the Grail, but I'm not a fan of the black day/date wheels.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

VintageTimepiece said:


> Beautiful example of the Grail, but I'm not a fan of the black day/date wheels.


Understood. It does take away from the original vintage look that purists prefer. I've kept the original German wheels (obviously) in case I ever decide to part with the watch and I've procured a NOS set in both English and French as well. It always just bothered me that the original white wheels always seem mismatched in that the date wheel stays so much brighter white than the yellowish day wheel because the former receives less than 25% of the light exposure of the latter over the lifetime of the watch.


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## subrosamariner (Aug 13, 2016)

Chuck knew his speedmasters, but "Grail" is passed around far too much now....it's not a moon watch. For me.... Case closed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VintageTimepiece (Mar 21, 2016)

Well, for folks that enjoy pure handwound pieces without the benefits of an automatic movement and date feature, going pre-moon is the way to go. Nobody is doubting that.

However, for those who prefer a day/date feature with the legendary robustness of the 5100 movement while retaining the original moonwatch case, the 376.0822 might be an option to consider.



subrosamariner said:


> Chuck knew his speedmasters, but "Grail" is passed around far too much now....it's not a moon watch. For me.... Case closed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VintageTimepiece (Mar 21, 2016)

Do we have any additional members? Reviving this thread.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

I know they're appreciating in value, but this might be a bit too optimistic, even for a nice-looking specimen:
Omega Speedmaster Professional 376.0822 Grail | eBay


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## Ray916MN (Feb 11, 2006)

FreelanceWriter said:


> I know they're appreciating in value, but this might be a bit too optimistic, even for a nice-looking specimen:
> Omega Speedmaster Professional 376.0822 Grail | eBay


As far as I can tell, these are not appreciating in value. More than a decade ago, the peak price I saw was $14K. To put this into perspective, at the time, it was easy to get pristine 145.012 and 105.012 Speedmasters with original bands for under $3K. From this period of time, all sorts of other Omegas have seen similar increases in value (eg. 166.024, 165.024, 105.003, 2998-X) to the flown Speedmasters. Everything is relative and clean original more common 105.012 and 145.012 Speedmasters run in the low teens, with this in mind at best, I'd say the "Grail" has held its value and at worst has lost value.

Why has the "Grail" failed to increase in value? In my opinion it is partly due to the price bubble that happens when any watch that is truly rare becomes highly sought after as it was when Chuck Maddox was alive. It is also due to the lack of an active market which happens when rare watches find homes with collectors who have no interest in selling.

As an owner of a number of different Speedmasters, and in particular a 105.012 and a 376.0822, I'll say that I believe a "Grail" at $12.5K is bargain in today's market. I brought a number of Speedmasters to a local Red Bar gathering last year. While everyone appreciated the 105.012, the universal comment about the 376.0822 was "wow, never seen one of those in the flesh". In the context of the values of other collectible Omega sport watches, the "Grail" is under appreciated in my opinion.


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## joe band (May 31, 2008)

Ray916MN said:


> As an owner of a number of different Speedmasters, and in particular a 105.012 and a 376.0822, I'll say that I believe a "Grail" at $12.5K is bargain in today's market. I brought a number of Speedmasters to a local Red Bar gathering last year. While everyone appreciated the 105.012, the universal comment about the 376.0822 was "wow, never seen one of those in the flesh". In the context of the values of other collectible Omega sport watches, the "Grail" is under appreciated in my opinion.


the 376.0822 aren't in my wheelhouse, but just that 1450 bracelet with the endlinks is worth a pretty penny.


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## ccm123 (Feb 8, 2010)

Some nice photos!


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## sungtaek (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for the pics. I really love the watch and bracelet..


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## VintageTimepiece (Mar 21, 2016)

Bumping this thread


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## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

I was just clued in to the existence of this website. omegaholygrail.com

I sent off a "thank you" email to the creator - haven't heard back yet.

I suspect all of us on this thread would enjoy the information there.

(No affiliation, of course)


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Thanks, EZ; that's a great informational site. I learned that mine has the original B2 bezel and the original Type 1 dial. Coincidentally, I recently procured this NOS replacement (Type 2) dial, although hardly for the 38.15 price on the package. The seller sent me a photo showing the lume brightly charged. Any thoughts as to why Pascal's NOS dial lume shows full patina whereas this one is still white? I don't know that I'll necessarily install it because the patina has grown on me, but I grabbed the dial just in case because I know how rarely they show up for sale. I also bought a replacement crystal with the chapter ring the first time I saw one for sale for the same reason. Thanks again to SteveW62 for the modification idea.


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## Greek (Dec 7, 2010)

38.15 is not the price, it´s the production date: 38th week of 2015. It´s an Omega service dial with Luminova.


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## FreelanceWriter (May 30, 2010)

Thanks, Greek. I'm confused: If Omega is still making these, why have they been installing the wrong dials on so many of them?


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## Greek (Dec 7, 2010)

Good question, maybe they installed the wrong ones (which actually belong to a different speedmaster) until they produced a batch of correctly styled service dials for the "Grail".


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## Greek (Dec 7, 2010)

https://omegaforums.net/threads/is-this-a-correct-holy-grail-dial.20818/


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## Lou P (Feb 11, 2012)




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## waruilewi (May 18, 2008)

I've been around long enough to remember the first post on this thread lol


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Thanks everyone from the original OP up to now. I just got mine about a month ago, and can't be happier. From what I can tell, it's all original (48231xxx range, confirmed by an Extract from the Archives) from an early German batch with the serif 7 bezel (with the reported variation in the sharpness of the printing), original dial and handset, 1450/809 (with complete link set and firm without too much vintage 'sag'), complete lume indices, crystal with Omega symbol (with correct shape), and very sharp edges on the case that are well polished where they should be and well brushed where they should be. Compared with the brushing on my 105.012, as well as my modern 1861 and other Omegas, and given the condition of all the other elements (like the pristine aspect of the movement), I couldn't help but wonder if Omega had serviced it, but I *know* they weren't the last to do so before it was sold to me, and if they did service it, they probably would have replaced the dial and hands. So, it's a bit of a puzzle, and likely to remain so forever. The independent last service also pressure tested it. 

I've wanted this watch for decades, but now I could finally get one. It took me a while to find one that was in the correct condition I wanted, and when it appeared, I pulled the trigger after some careful negotiation. I've seen many of your HGs over the years, so thank you for helping 'tie me over' with your pics. Furthermore, forgive me for the paltry quality of my own photography skills.

Here it is on the Forstner Komfit on the first day I got it, because I didn't have time to get the bracelet sized, but I had to wear it.










The day after, sized now. 



















Finally, the classic 'exploded-hands' pose, next to my 105.012.










It is my 'exit' piece, and was always the last watch on the list. Now my watch collection is complete. If any of you are still around, post some of yours; I'd love to see more of them here.


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## oddboy (Jun 3, 2014)

Killer piece! looks fantastic!


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Thanks oddboy. One day soon I'm going to clean off the dust (I wear the thing 24/7) and try to take some proper pics in good lighting. Just haven't had time lately...too much to do and too little time. All the years of seeing pics here, Timezone, and other places kept stoking the fires. Also; I got mine at a time when the research was a little more advanced...I can't imagine how treacherous it would have been to try buying one of these in the early 2000's.

Have you still got yours? What became of the search for parts and replacement hands?


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

Congratulations on your new acquisition. It's a fantastic watch!

In fact, now over 8 years after adverse circumstances forced me to sell mine, the void it left is just as huge as the first day when I dropped off the package at the DHL office for its transatlantic trip to its new owner. This chronograph is really special, and I hope one day to be in a position to reacquire one. In the meantime, I look at my old pictures and cherish the fact that I once was lucky enough to be the proud owner of such a rare timepiece.

Enjoy yours. It deserves all the love you can give it.🥰


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Pascal S said:


> Congratulations on your new acquisition. It's a fantastic watch!
> 
> In fact, now over 8 years after adverse circumstances forced me to sell mine, the void it left is just as huge as the first day when I dropped off the package at the DHL office for its transatlantic trip to its new owner. This chronograph is really special, and I hope one day to be in a position to reacquire one. In the meantime, I look at my old pictures and cherish the fact that I once was lucky enough to be the proud owner of such a rare timepiece.
> 
> Enjoy yours. It deserves all the love you can give it.🥰


Thank you Pascal, and I'm truly sorry that you had to sell yours. Your pics are always high quality, and a testament to the fact that this watch design looks awesome all the time! 

Fwiw; I've been keeping my eye on these for the past 2 years or so on the market, and they do come up once in a while. When I bought mine, there were 6 available, including one Italian Market 'Liberace'; granted, the buyer still has to filter through them, checking bezels, endlinks, etc., but at least they aren't completely unavailable. Maybe when the time is right, I'll see a post by you mentioning a long-awaited return; I look forward to that.


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## Pascal S (Jul 15, 2006)

To be honest, I'm currently in the process of attempting to reacquire another of the watches I had to let go: my birth year Moonwatch. 

And not just another one, but the actual example events forced me to sell almost 9 years ago, because it holds sentimental value for me given how I acquired it. This particular watch was pointed to me by my late friend Chuck Maddox after his relentless work succeeded in finally persuading me that the Speedy Pro was an absolute masterpiece I couldn't do without in my collection. He was right, and it was in complete agony that I sold it to its current owner. The latter however kindly accepted a condition of mine: if he ever was to sell, he would contact me first. Well, I was the one who made the first step a few months ago, and after a bit of pleading he seems amenable to the idea of selling this Speedmaster back to me. It's far from done, but I'm hopeful a homecoming might be in the cards in the coming months.

The Grail is another challenge, involving a much larger budget these days. And with only 2,000 of these ever made (and 1,800 in the original configuration), finding the right one will indeed take a (very long) while. That said, it originally took me 18 months to find mine, and another 2 years to source a replacement NOS dial, so I know full well what's ahead.


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Pascal S said:


> To be honest, I'm currently in the process of attempting to reacquire another of the watches I had to let go: my birth year Moonwatch.
> 
> And not just another one, but the actual example events forced me to sell almost 9 years ago, because it holds sentimental value for me given how I acquired it. This particular watch was pointed to me by my late friend Chuck Maddox after his relentless work succeeded in finally persuading me that the Speedy Pro was an absolute masterpiece I couldn't do without in my collection. He was right, and it was in complete agony that I sold it to its current owner. The latter however kindly accepted a condition of mine: if he ever was to sell, he would contact me first. Well, I was the one who made the first step a few months ago, and after a bit of pleading he seems amenable to the idea of selling this Speedmaster back to me. It's far from done, but I'm hopeful a homecoming might be in the cards in the coming months.
> 
> The Grail is another challenge, involving a much larger budget these days. And with only 2,000 of these ever made (and 1,800 in the original configuration), finding the right one will indeed take a (very long) while. That said, it originally took me 18 months to find mine, and another 2 years to source a replacement NOS dial, so I know full well what's ahead.


Those are definitely serious challenges ahead of you, but it sounds as if you have all the elements set into proper motion, so I guess it's a matter of the usual things: patience, capital, and a bit of luck. I wish you good luck in all of it, seriously. 

My Speedy 321 means a lot to me, and I can't honestly imagine parting with it. My Holy Grail, the same thing. There really isn't anything like them. Perhaps because my Speedy has so many exterior aesthetic flaws (it's unpolished, and the hands are cracked), it is far more 'endearing' than the Grail, which right now is essentially flawless on the exterior aside from one mark on the dial and one on the bezel. But there is something about them, regardless of if they are rare or not, that makes them special on the wrist. I don't get the same feeling from my 1861, or my Mark 40. Funny how watches are like that sometimes.

I look forward to seeing you reunited with your watches!


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Caught the morning sun, but also tried to remove all the dust the watch has accumulated over the past weeks. I wear it nonstop....such is life. I'll try to upload more pics as the day goes on; sorry if you've seen this pic in a few different threads already...lol


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## OmegaA (7 mo ago)

Couldn't help but get a wristshot while I was here...


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