# Patek Philippe, Vacheron Constantin, or Audemar Piguet



## Phoneix8

Hi everyone, I'm currently shopping around for a sports watch so it pits the Nautilus, Overseas, and RO against one another. I know I should follow my heart with whatever I like best but I was just curious what the 1) Servicing costs & time away for each brand, and 2) Approximately how much does the watch depreciate over time, say 5 years? 

Thanks everybody!


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## Watchbreath

Of these three, Patek the least. Servicing for these three will run 700 to 1400 USD depending on the type of watch, at todays prices, more in five years.


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## Phoneix8

Watchbreath said:


> Of these three, Patek the least. Servicing for these three will run 700 to 1400 USD depending on the type of watch, at todays prices, more in five years.


Thanks for the reply, I've heard some horror stories in addition to time away for VC so it's running 3rd for my choice. Having a hard time deciding between PP & AP, I do like that the residual value is higher for PP.


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## Crunchy

AP is mostly for style & looks. For pretty much everything else it's patek who wins, IMHO. Buy what you like, if you like the patek design, there is no contest. However if you like the AP RO or ROO look, go for AP, it's sportier and more aggressive style versus the aquanaut or nautilus.


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## Frenchy377

PP will probably maintain value slightly higher than the other too, but personally i am a fan of the RO and hope to purchase one in the near future. if you're considering costs then the RO is a decent amount cheaper for time only than the nautilus.


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## renovar

Value retention PP>>AP>VC (from chrono 24). Styling preference is personal indeed. Servicing cost is really similar AFAIK. But upfront investment (on base steel models) PP nautilus is significantly more than a 15400 RO or VC overseas. According to my local AD, they are not giving much discount off MSRP in steel Nautilus 5711's whereas an Overseas or APRO you should expect a slug more. So take that into consideration when depreciation is calculated.
For steel sports watches value retention kings are PP and Rolex (sub, daytona).


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## Watchbreath

"Slightly", it's #1 for watches. The outher two don't come close.


Frenchy377 said:


> PP will probably maintain value slightly higher than the other too, but personally i am a fan of the RO and hope to purchase one in the near future. if you're considering costs then the RO is a decent amount cheaper for time only than the nautilus.


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## plastique999

Personally I think you're looking at two of the least important aspects of a watch. You're looking at it from two negative aspects: 1) getting rid of it and 2) what it costs when it breaks or needs service. 
I would try a different angle...aesthetics - you have 2 Gerald Genta designs with unique bezels and a Maltese cross designed bezel. Then of course the dials - look at the different guilloche patterns. Which one moves you?
Then look at the beautiful history behind each company. 
Then there's the engine!

Most know that PP holds best value and servicing costs are relatively the same.
So then move on to the important points. 

If I bought watches on those two variables you asked of, I'd be judged as having the worst collection. 


Sent from my 16M


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## heuerolexomega

As a brand Patek will retain value better, and VC will retains its value the least. But is easier to decide once you narrow it down to specific models. Because the brand it's an important factor but at the end you buy the watch. It really depends , your question is so open that you won't get to much out of it. Give us specific models and budget and the advise will be better.

Regards


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## shartouh

Phoneix8 said:


> Thanks for the reply, I've heard some horror stories in addition to time away for VC so it's running 3rd for my choice. Having a hard time deciding between PP & AP, I do like that the residual value is higher for PP.


Take Nautilus, with pleasure, PP Nautilus is better than AP , espicially with service AP has Expencive service and it needs long time to go back. Vc is less of another bouth


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## Phoneix8

heuerolexomega said:


> As a brand Patek will retain value better, and VC will retains its value the least. But is easier to decide once you narrow it down to specific models. Because the brand it's an important factor but at the end you buy the watch. It really depends , your question is so open that you won't get to much out of it. Give us specific models and budget and the advise will be better.
> 
> Regards


Sorry for the lack of specifics, I know my question was a bit too vague but I had just wanted to know the approximate value lost on a watch. I certainly understand that buying watches is a deeply personal & emotional thing, the timepiece that moves my heart is what gets my wallet, however I felt I needed to ask certain questions because though I've researched on my own I"m still a newbie, working towards WIS. Does anybody have some examples they'd like to share on the purchase/sale costs of a PP, VC, or AP? Thanks in advance guys, really appreciate all the answers.


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## Watchbreath

For most watches, it's 50%+ going out the door.


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## renovar

Probably the best thing you can do for yourself if you decide to buy new from AD is to find an AD that will work with you on price and to negotiate a big discount (20%+). Buying new a great price will significantly limit your downside at resale. In my relatively young watch collection journey I haven't bought any watch for myself or the wife for less than 20% off MSRP yet. The base Nautilus Patek you will probably have trouble getting to 20 but you gotta try your best.


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> Hi everyone, I'm currently shopping around for a sports watch so it pits the Nautilus, Overseas, and RO against one another. I know I should follow my heart with whatever I like best but I was just curious what the 1) Servicing costs & time away for each brand, and 2) Approximately how much does the watch depreciate over time, say 5 years?
> 
> Thanks everybody!


Well, IMO, the worst thing about selecting any one of those watches is that one is not choosing one of the other two. LOL

Servicing Cost: 
In my experience PP is vastly more reasonable than AP. I haven't sent a watch to VC for service. That said, I'm sure that you can find a very suitably qualified watchmaker in NYC who can work on any uncomplicated watch from any of the three brands, which will save you even more money.

Depreciation:
Hands down, PP and Rolex depreciate far less then all other general production watches. I have no reliable way to say how much they'll decline in value in a lustrum.

Picking a specific watch:
My advice, if you really are stuck or indifferent among some small group of specific watches from the three brands, is to think about your lifestyle first and the watches second. If you have a clear preference on a specific watch, that's likely the one you should buy. I say consider your life and how/when/where you intend to use the watch because, really, none of the three is a bad choice, be it when one considers the watches themselves or the companies who make them.

In my mind, a PP Nautilus is very hard to be when considered in comparison to AP's RO and VC's Overseas. It's offered in a timeless size, the case and bracelet are fairly forgiving re: scratching, PP's maintenance prices are reasonable (in comparison...they are still too high if you ask me), and they will always have replacement parts available (at least as long as they remain who they are today).

Style wise, well, that's really your call. I think the sport offerings of each brand are pretty much interchangeable as goes style matters. None of them is properly a dress watch, but each of them is dressy enough -- be it by dint of the sophistication of the case and bracelet design, or the overall structure of the watch -- to "get by" when needed to do so.

Ultimately, a test drive will tell you what to do. You are fortunate to live in NYC; each maker has a boutique there, so getting a first hand look at each watch is easy for you to do. So, put on an outfit that will be typical for your your intended usage, and go have some fun trying on watches.

All the best.

There are such moments in life, when, in order for heaven to open, it is necessary for a door to close.
― José Saramago, _The Cave

_


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## Phoneix8

tony20009 said:


> Well, IMO, the worst thing about selecting any one of those watches is that one is not choosing one of the other two. LOL
> 
> Servicing Cost:
> In my experience PP is vastly more reasonable than AP. I haven't sent a watch to VC for service. That said, I'm sure that you can find a very suitably qualified watchmaker in NYC who can work on any uncomplicated watch from any of the three brands, which will save you even more money.
> 
> Depreciation:
> Hands down, PP and Rolex depreciate far less then all other general production watches. I have no reliable way to say how much they'll decline in value in a lustrum.
> 
> Picking a specific watch:
> My advice, if you really are stuck or indifferent among some small group of specific watches from the three brands, is to think about your lifestyle first and the watches second. If you have a clear preference on a specific watch, that's likely the one you should buy. I say consider your life and how/when/where you intend to use the watch because, really, none of the three is a bad choice, be it when one considers the watches themselves or the companies who make them.
> 
> In my mind, a PP Nautilus is very hard to be when considered in comparison to AP's RO and VC's Overseas. It's offered in a timeless size, the case and bracelet are fairly forgiving re: scratching, PP's maintenance prices are reasonable (in comparison...they are still too high if you ask me), and they will always have replacement parts available (at least as long as they remain who they are today).
> 
> Style wise, well, that's really your call. I think the sport offerings of each brand are pretty much interchangeable as goes style matters. None of them is properly a dress watch, but each of them is dressy enough -- be it by dint of the sophistication of the case and bracelet design, or the overall structure of the watch -- to "get by" when needed to do so.
> 
> Ultimately, a test drive will tell you what to do. You are fortunate to live in NYC; each maker has a boutique there, so getting a first hand look at each watch is easy for you to do. So, put on an outfit that will be typical for your your intended usage, and go have some fun trying on watches.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> There are such moments in life, when, in order for heaven to open, it is necessary for a door to close.
> ― José Saramago, _The Cave
> 
> _


Thank you for your thoughtful insights, this is why the forums are sometimes indispensable when faced with such an important decision. I am leaning towards the Patek Nautilus 5711 but have a hard time getting over the fact that it's around $10k more than the VC & AP. The fiance is already tired of my incessant prodding as to which piece to buy, lol. I might have to sleep on the sofa for a while if I went a bit over budget. As for AD's a quick check on PP's website shows only a few including Torneau & Tiffany's. In addition AFAIK a 20% discount is not possible on the Patek's. Would anyone who has purchased a 5711 this year be so kind to share the discount they were able to secure. Thanks guys


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> *Thank you* for your thoughtful insights, this is why the forums are sometimes indispensable when faced with such an important decision. I am leaning towards the Patek Nautilus 5711 but h*ave a hard time getting over the fact that it's around $10k more than the VC & AP.* *The fiance is already tired of my incessant prodding as to which piece to buy, lol. I might have to sleep on the sofa for a while* if I went a bit over budget. As for AD's a quick check on PP's website shows only a few including Torneau & Tiffany's. In addition AFAIK a *20% discount is not possible on the Patek's*. Would anyone who has purchased a 5711 this year be so kind to share the discount they were able to secure. Thanks guys


YW

I was going to say that you may want to make the purchase before her status changes to wife, but it seems it's already too late for that tack to work. LOL

No way around the fact that $10K is very compelling motivator for choosing the VC or AP. When I got my RO, the price of the Nautilus was why I didn't buy it instead, that and the fact that I already had a Calatrava. Were I to have a wedding coming, especially, I'd want the $10K in my pocket instead of PP's. You may come by a 20% discount on some PP, but it won't be an uncomplicated Nautilus.

As for estimating what discount you might be able to obtain, check several of the grey market sellers' (GMS) sites to see what discounts they are offering. Generally, an AD will come close to matching that price, although most of them aren't quite as generous as a GMS because of the warranty factor.

For myself, when I'm buying an uncomplicated new watch from a brand like PP or Rolex, I really don't care about the warranty. The typical two year warranty just isn't in force long enough to be useful to me. Sure, "sh*t" can happen, but with those brands, it's rare enough that I'll take my chances. I would take a similar risk with a basic VC, JLC or AP as well. If I were buying the watch as a gift for a non-immediate family member, it'd be a different matter, just as it would if I were buying a pre-owned one.

Speaking of pre-owned, if you are buying from a very reputable seller like Tourneau or Alan Furman or several others, you shouldn't have any reservation about buying pre-owned. The pre-owned stuff sellers of that ilk offer is substantively no different than brand new. The prices won't be the best, but there'll be some small savings, and a small sum saved is better than no sum saved given the minimal-to-nonexistant risk associated with such a transaction.

All the best.

Edit:
I bought my Calatrava nearly 30 years ago (Lord, time flies!). Today, the price of the same watch used is roughly what I paid for it new. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to me to check the prices on it until after I joined WUS, so I don't know how long it took for the non-inflation adjusted price to reach its current level, or whether it has ever not been at its current level. Obviously, given inflation, the sums the watch commands today are still well below what I paid for it years ago.


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## renovar

Phoneix8 said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful insights, this is why the forums are sometimes indispensable when faced with such an important decision. I am leaning towards the Patek Nautilus 5711 but have a hard time getting over the fact that it's around $10k more than the VC & AP. The fiance is already tired of my incessant prodding as to which piece to buy, lol. I might have to sleep on the sofa for a while if I went a bit over budget. As for AD's a quick check on PP's website shows only a few including Torneau & Tiffany's. In addition AFAIK a 20% discount is not possible on the Patek's. Would anyone who has purchased a 5711 this year be so kind to share the discount they were able to secure. Thanks guys


20+% on PP is completely possible just depends on model and your AD relationship. 5711 is a lot harder than most due to popularity however. PM me if you need a PP AD referral in the US.
What's more questionable is the sleeping on the sofa part. Fiance prodding you, or you prodding her? Who is paying for the watch? Who is going to wear it?


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## heuerolexomega

Phoneix8 said:


> Thank you for your thoughtful insights, this is why the forums are sometimes indispensable when faced with such an important decision. I am leaning towards the Patek Nautilus 5711 but have a hard time getting over the fact that it's around $10k more than the VC & AP. The fiance is already tired of my incessant prodding as to which piece to buy, lol. I might have to sleep on the sofa for a while if I went a bit over budget. As for AD's a quick check on PP's website shows only a few including Torneau & Tiffany's. In addition AFAIK a 20% discount is not possible on the Patek's. Would anyone who has purchased a 5711 this year be so kind to share the discount they were able to secure. Thanks guys


Buy what you like, but consider APRO Jumbo 15202st "the original genta": for stainless steel Genta with no Complications that would be my choice.


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## HRC-E.B.

Patek will retain its value the best, but it is significantly more expensive to begin with. 

In my view, though they share similarities and a designer, I don't view the Nautilus and the Royal Oak as genuine alternatives to one another. To me, they are as different as they are similar. Speaking very personally here, the Royal Oak design appeals to me very much, while the Nautilus design simply does not speak to me in the same way. I find the Nautilus a bit too weirdly organic, though some variations of the Nautilus I find are still attractive. Bottom line, in my mind they are not true alternatives to one another.

As for depreciation, I don't really know. A Royal Oak or a Nautilus, for most collectors, is bound to become a staple in their collection, so if and when I buy one, I would not expect to ever get rid of it. That being said, PP seems to be in a class of its own when it comes to value retention. Then again, it also depends on what care you take of the your watch. I find that, comparatively speaking, a Royal Oak Jumbo (15202), with its widely-acclaimed JLC 920-derived movement, is a relative bargain compared to a base Nautilus, which has a a relatively pedestrian PP 3-hand movement; PP is better known and appreciated for its more complicated movements. For my money, that's where I'd go, but that's just me. I feel that buyers of entry-level PP watches overpay, compared to buyers of more complicated PP watches or, in this case, compared to buyers of a Royal Oak Jumbo.

As for servicing, I've heard that service times at AP can be very long. Though I don't have any personal experience with either, it would seem as though PP is a tad better organized and predictable in this sense.

Bottom line, at these prices, make sure you get what you like best. That's your best insurance policy of having to find out about the resale value of your watch...


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## tony20009

HRC-E.B. said:


> Patek will retain its value the best, but it is significantly more expensive to begin with.
> 
> In my view, though they share similarities and a designer, I don't view the Nautilus and the Royal Oak as genuine alternatives to one another. To me, they are as different as they are similar. Speaking very personally here, the Royal Oak design appeals to me very much, while the Nautilus design simply does not speak to me in the same way. *I find the Nautilus a bit too weirdly organic*, though some variations of the Nautilus I find are still attractive. Bottom line, in my mind they are not true alternatives to one another.
> 
> As for depreciation, I don't really know. A Royal Oak or a Nautilus, for most collectors, is bound to become a staple in their collection, so if and when I buy one, I would not expect to ever get rid of it. That being said, PP seems to be in a class of its own when it comes to value retention. Then again, it also depends on what care you take of the your watch. I find that, comparatively speaking, a Royal Oak Jumbo (15202), with its widely-acclaimed JLC 920-derived movement, is a relative bargain compared to a base Nautilus, which has a a relatively pedestrian PP 3-hand movement; PP is better known and appreciated for its more complicated movements. For my money, that's where I'd go, but that's just me. I feel that buyers of entry-level PP watches overpay, compared to buyers of more complicated PP watches or, in this case, compared to buyers of a Royal Oak Jumbo.
> 
> As for servicing, I've heard that service times at AP can be very long. Though I don't have any personal experience with either, it would seem as though PP is a tad better organized and predictable in this sense.
> 
> Bottom line, at these prices, make sure you get what you like best. That's your best insurance policy of having to find out about the resale value of your watch...


I really like the thoughts you shared, but I have to say I haven't the first idea what "weirdly organic" means in the context above. That said, I probably don't need to either -- LOL -- as I do understand your point about the two watches not being alternatives in your mind.

Nice post to read.

All the best.


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## HRC-E.B.

Weirdly organic referred to the shape of the Nautilus, which looks more "roundish" as if it were a biological/organic structure, as opposed to the square, sharp, harsh, more "industrial" shape of the Royal Oak. The Nautilus reminds me of the curves one sees in the shells of sea animals, for instance.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Phoneix8

Thanks to all the replies! Really enjoy reading everybody's thoughts. Tony, you said you wouldn't hesitate to buy a non-complicated PP from the grey market, does this mean that non-complicated movements are less likely to require service? I looked a bit into the RO 15202 and was not aware what the difference was between that and the 15300 but for aesthetics purposes I like the 15300 more because of the sweeping seconds hands, I found a picture that was quite striking that I've attached. I also did read that the caliber 2121 of the 15202 was well respected but I dun think i'd pay more for it. 

I think deep down inside I wanted a Patek for it's history and what the brand represents but I think at this point the $10k in savings would come in handy...


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## Phoneix8

Damn the more I look at the AP 15300 the more I fall in love with it :-d


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> Thanks to all the replies! Really enjoy reading everybody's thoughts. *Tony, you said you wouldn't hesitate to buy a non-complicated PP from the grey market, does this mean that non-complicated movements are less likely to require service?* I looked a bit into the RO 15202 and was not aware what the difference was between that and the 15300 but for aesthetics purposes *I like the 15300* more because of the sweeping seconds hands, I found a picture that was quite striking that I've attached. I also did read that the caliber 2121 of the 15202 was well respected but I dun think i'd pay more for it.
> 
> I think deep down inside I wanted a Patek for it's history and what the brand represents but I think at this point the $10k in savings would come in handy...


Red:
No, that isn't what I was getting at, although it is my understanding that uncomplicated movements are more tolerant of one's allowing a longer span of time between servicing. What I was referring to is that the makers whose products you are considering have so much experience making super fine watches that the risk of getting a "bum" uncomplicated one that will fail within the typical warranty period is slim to none. So, seeing as buying a new watch from a GMS differs from buying the same watch new from an AD or a brand boutique only insofar as a GMS won't be able to offer the manufacturer's warranty. That said, all the good GMSes offer their own warranty that in most cases mimics that which the manufacturer's offer.

Bold Black:
The 15300 is lovely. I find the two and three hand ROs similar enough enough that I suspect that I'd end up buying the one that was in front of me at the time, so lovely are all of them. (Hodinkee has a very good blog post about differences among the various iterations of the basic RO models: Explaining The Two New Royal Oaks: The 15400 (41mm) And 15450 (37mm) W/ Live Pictures, Visual Aids, & Prices)

All the best.


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## nnb203

Regarding all the different models of Royal Oaks, i think the pricing concessions you can get on them also vary. I see the GMs are discounting the 37 and 41mm models at around 15%. None of them have the 15202 in stock.

The same AD who sold me JLC Mut Moon for 25% off said he would only sell me 15202 at full price...he doesn't carry Patek but he said everything else in the store was available for discount but he only gets two 15202s in a year and can easily sell them at full price. I personally like 15202 best from size (diameter and thinness) perspective but miss the seconds hand...good luck in making your choice.



tony20009 said:


> Red:
> No, that isn't what I was getting at, although it is my understanding that uncomplicated movements are more tolerant of one's allowing a longer span of time between servicing. What I was referring to is that the makers whose products you are considering have so much experience making super fine watches that the risk of getting a "bum" uncomplicated one that will fail within the typical warranty period is slim to none. So, seeing as buying a new watch from a GMS differs from buying the same watch new from an AD or a brand boutique only insofar as a GMS won't be able to offer the manufacturer's warranty. That said, all the good GMSes offer their own warranty that in most cases mimics that which the manufacturer's offer.
> 
> Bold Black:
> The 15300 is lovely. I find the two and three hand ROs similar enough enough that I suspect that I'd end up buying the one that was in front of me at the time, so lovely are all of them. (Hodinkee has a very good blog post about differences among the various iterations of the basic RO models: Explaining The Two New Royal Oaks: The 15400 (41mm) And 15450 (37mm) W/ Live Pictures, Visual Aids, & Prices)
> 
> All the best.


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## tony20009

nnb203 said:


> Regarding all the different models of Royal Oaks, *i think the pricing concessions you can get on them also vary.* I see the GMs are discounting the 37 and 41mm models at around 15%. None of them have the 15202 in stock.
> 
> The same AD who sold me JLC Mut Moon for 25% off said he would only sell me 15202 at full price...he doesn't carry Patek but he said everything else in the store was available for discount but he only gets two 15202s in a year and can easily sell them at full price. I personally like 15202 best from size (diameter and thinness) perspective but miss the seconds hand...good luck in making your choice.


Red:
There's absolutely no doubt about it; they vary directly with supply and demand, as one might expect. If GMSs don't have access to a given model, ADs have no impetus to sell it at a discount seeing as the only other seller to have the given model will be the manufacturer's branded boutique, and you know they aren't offering a discount unless one is offering to buy so many of them that it'd be like a fleet sale to them and that's not at all what we're talking about here. (Of course, that's inconsequential to an AD because they wouldn't and couldn't be a party to such a transaction; they could achieve fleet pricing, but they'd never be able to deliver "fleet volumes" within the buyer's time frame because they wouldn't have the ability to manage/control the production cycle to make that happen.)

FWIW, although I think you are correct that GMSes don't have the 15202 in stock, they may be able to get one. I see Alan Furman's site indicates they have one in rose gold. Although I wouldn't "hold my breath" that they could get you a SS one, nothing's lost by calling them and asking if they can, when, and how much they'd charge for it. (I mention Alan Furman because they are the GMS close to my home and because they welcome people visiting them in person. I don't know if other GMSes do that.)

All the best.


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## Phoneix8

I am considering the AP 15300 in white or blue dial in addition to the PP 5800. Which choice would people go here?


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## dbostedo

HRC-E.B. said:


> Weirdly organic referred to the shape of the Nautilus, which looks more "roundish" as if it were a biological/organic structure, as opposed to the square, sharp, harsh, more "industrial" shape of the Royal Oak. The Nautilus reminds me of the curves one sees in the shells of sea animals, for instance.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.


It could be more than the shape of the Patek that reminds you of that... it could also be the name of the model. After all, it's named after (maybe not directly) an animal with this shell :


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## 2muchtimeonmyhands

Or perhaps this?








I have to admit this was what I thought of when I first saw the name. Released the same year no less!


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> I am considering the AP 15300 in white or blue dial in addition to the PP 5800. Which choice would people go here?


I like them both, so I'd go with the one I could get a better price on. If I didn't already have a blue or white dialed watch of the same style/genre I'd choose the color I didn't have. Is the 5800 offered with a white dial? If it's not, I'd get the AP with the white dial. But hey, some folks think it cool to collect watches all having the same dial color. Maybe that idea appeals to you too....

All the best.


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## Phoneix8

I am leaning towards the AP 15300, the white dial has stolen my heart. Planning on going to a couple places in NYC to try it out over the weekend, what kind of discount would I possibly get at an AD? Additionally if i were to purchase it at the AP retail store would I be able to get any kind of discount or full price is the norm?

I believe the retail price for the 15300 is around $15,000. Also since they came out with the new 15400 would the 15300 even be sold at stores? I suppose I'd have to call around to find out...


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> I am leaning towards the AP 15300, the white dial has stolen my heart. Planning on going to a couple places in NYC to try it out over the weekend, what kind of discount would I possibly get at an AD? Additionally if i were to purchase it at the AP retail store would I be able to get any kind of discount or full price is the norm?
> 
> I believe the retail price for the 15300 is around $15,000. Also since they came out with the new 15400 would the 15300 even be sold at stores? *I suppose I'd have to call around to find out...*


Yep...


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## plastique999

tony20009 said:


> Yep...


That's the shortest reply from Tony I've seen 

Sent from my 16M


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## heuerolexomega

Phoneix8 said:


> I am leaning towards the AP 15300, the white dial has stolen my heart. Planning on going to a couple places in NYC to try it out over the weekend, what kind of discount would I possibly get at an AD? Additionally if i were to purchase it at the AP retail store would I be able to get any kind of discount or full price is the norm?
> 
> I believe the retail price for the 15300 is around $15,000. Also since they came out with the new 15400 would the 15300 even be sold at stores? I suppose I'd have to call around to find out...


I can guarantee you that you won't find a new 15300 with an AD (just a miracle might negate that statement). When I bought mine in March 2013, I called AD's like crazy and found just one. They gave me 10% disc. I pay about 12.5k and sold it 2 months a go for 11k.
Hope it helps

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Phoneix8

Thanks for all the replies, it's amazing how much one learns on these forums. Upon further research I believe heuerolexomega might be correct, obtaining the 15300 would certainly be a hard task and my phone calls thus far have yielded unsuccessful. That being said I looked into other APRO and found that the 15450 might actually be a better fit for my wrist (6.5 inches). I don't believe I'd have trouble finding that model. My only question now I suppose is to purchase at the AP Boutique or at an AD. What are the differences between buying from both? Could I even get a discount if i went to AP Boutique?


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> Thanks for all the replies, it's amazing how much one learns on these forums. Upon further research I believe heuerolexomega might be correct, obtaining the 15300 would certainly be a hard task and my phone calls thus far have yielded unsuccessful. That being said I looked into other APRO and found that the 15450 might actually be a better fit for my wrist (6.5 inches). I don't believe I'd have trouble finding that model. My only question now I suppose is to purchase at the AP Boutique or at an AD. *What are the differences between buying from both? Could I even get a discount if i went to AP Boutique?*


Good luck with foray.

There's not much difference. I prefer to buy from an AD over a boutique because a boutique will have only one brand and sooner or later I'm going to want something from another maker. It's more about the relationship than it is about the watch.

As for discounts, I've had better results with ADs than with boutiques. That could be due to any number of factors, not the least of which is the supply and demand curves the boutique and the ADs face in their respective geographies and customer bases. That said, I'm quite content to buy from a GMS as well, particularly if their selling price is substantially lower ($500 or more) than that of an AD. The manufacturer's warranty (which is worth no more than $500 to me) just isn't that important to me and I trust the GMS I use to "take care of me" under their own warranty if there is a problem. The reality I've experienced is that new, uncomplicated watches just don't really have problems within the first two years. I haven't actually had problems with any in some 30+ years, so I'm simply not going to pay a hefty premium for a warranty that I believe in all likelihood will never get used.

Edit:
You are right about learning a lot from the forum. After joining and seeing other members' comments, I opened up to the idea of buying pre-owned as well. That's something I never once before considered. After doing some research and visiting a couple sellers I trust, I don't have any reservations about do so now. The savings can be well worth it, and the truth is that it's not at all like buying pre-owned clothing. Going the pre-owned route is still not yet my first choice, but I do always now check the price and availability of pre-owned versions of a watch I'm going to buy. Minimally, I use the existence of the pre-owned alternative as a tool in my price negotiation efforts.

All the best.


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## tony20009

There is one difference that I didn't mention, but that probably is worth sharing. I've found that with ADs and GMSes, because they have lots of lower priced watches and/or other items and that have big profit margins in their pricing, I can sometimes use the additional purchase of one or two of those things to my advantage in negotiating a better overall deal on the bundle of items than I can on just the watch alone. I suppose one can do that at a branded boutique too, but it's rare that they'll have something else that is sufficiently inexpensive that I will make the effort to do that sort of thing. 

Obviously, there's not much point in using that tactic if you don't to some degree want those other items in the first place. For me, they tend to be items I would like to have, but that otherwise I wouldn't make any deliberate effort to acquire them on their own.

Perhaps I didn't need to mention that for I guess it's really part of the "negotiation" aspect I did mention as being different. Oh, well...

All the best.


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## GETS

All of these watches lose value by a considerable amount including the PP (don't be fooled by the "PP hardly lose value" argument. This only stands for their rarer or very high end pieces.. 

If I was you I would source a used AP RO 15300, which at a decent price will lose very little.

Regards,


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## harryst

heuerolexomega said:


> I can guarantee you that you won't find a new 15300 with an AD (just a miracle might negate that statement). When I bought mine in March 2013, I called AD's like crazy and found just one. They gave me 10% disc. I pay about 12.5k and sold it 2 months a go for 11k.


If I may ask... why did you sell it? Anything wrong w/ the watch?

*Edit*: Forget it - I just saw the "Road to 3" thread


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## heuerolexomega

harryst said:


> If I may ask... why did you sell it? Anything wrong w/ the watch?
> 
> *Edit*: Forget it - I just saw the "Road to 3" thread


Yes, what it was a grail before, is not a grail later. With time you are able to find what you truly love and not what you supposed to love. Remember result might vary...... Your WIS road might be entirely different.
Enjoy the ride 
Cheers !!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tony20009

I didn't mention this earlier because I didn't think it relevant to the transaction you have in mind, but in the interest of giving a complete answer, I'll say it.

There are two main benefits to brand boutiques:


Availability -- they will have access to all current models, including the ones the maker does not make available to ADs.
Commissions -- if you want to have a manufacture make something specifically for you, their boutique is the best place to begin the process of engaging them to do so.
All the best.


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## renovar

GETS said:


> All of these watches lose value by a considerable amount including the PP (don't be fooled by the "PP hardly lose value" argument. *This only stands for their rarer or very high end pieces*..
> 
> If I was you I would source a used AP RO 15300, which at a decent price will lose very little.
> 
> Regards,


I guess it' really depends on supply and demand of certain pieces even if they are not "rare".
I have heard more than 1 cases of transaction of the Nautilus 5711 where it was bought at minimal (<5%) discount in 1 place of the world, and then it was sold at 100% MSRP as a used (no doubt in great condition, but used nevertheless) piece at another part of the world because of the waiting list for one.
Another point is that if you are able to get a huge discount off MSRP (>20% off MSRP) on any patek from AD, even if buy new, I think your downside is very limited.
I think the key is to target on a piece you really want, have patience and only pull the trigger when price is right.


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## Okapi001

2muchtimeonmyhands said:


> Or perhaps this?
> I have to admit this was what I thought of when I first saw the name. Released the same year no less!


It was the submarine, not the mollusc that inspired the name.


> The Nautilus arose from the sea, like a Hellenic god of old, like its best-known namesake - the mighty submarine of Jules Verne's science-fiction epic 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. Its name is appropriately derived from the Greek word meaning ship or sailor, and the wide steel bezel of the watch takes its design cues from the hermetically sealed portholes of marine vessels. The defining visual characteristic of the watch, the protruding "ears" on either side of the case, are meant to evoke the prominent hinges on these watertight windows


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## tony20009

renovar said:


> I guess it' really depends on supply and demand of certain pieces even if they are not "rare".
> I have heard more than 1 cases of transaction of the Nautilus 5711 where it was bought at minimal (<5%) discount in 1 place of the world, and then it was sold at 100% MSRP as a used (no doubt in great condition, but used nevertheless) piece at another part of the world because of the waiting list for one.
> Another point is that* if you are able to get a huge discount off MSRP* (>20% off MSRP) on any patek from AD, even if buy new, I think your downside is very limited.
> I think the key is to target on a piece you really want, have patience and only pull the trigger when price is right.


Aside from your point that paying less is better than paying more, and you know you didn't need to tell us that (LOL) seeing as that's not unique to buying a PP watch, I don't quite understand what you are getting at above. Help.

All the best.


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## Phoneix8

Thanks for all the input, will be taking a look at RO's this upcoming weekend just to see how it looks on the wrist. Per people's suggestions I'll most likely be dealing with a AD or GMS


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> Thanks for all the input, will be taking a look at RO's this upcoming weekend just to see how it looks on the wrist. Per people's suggestions I'll most likely be dealing with a AD or GMS


Great plan.

You've got your work cut out for you with GMSes...there are so many of them in NYC and the surrounding area. Joma and Prestige time are both in that area, IIRC and that's before considering the scads of them in the diamond/watch district.

On the upside, shopping for a watch in NYC is a hoot of a good time, if one has the time. Every brand has a boutique there, plus there's Tourneau, so access to "road test" whatever crosses your mind -- and likely some stuff that never did -- is super easy to come by, making determining exactly which model one wants a piece of cake, so long as one doesn't get overwhelmed by just how many options there are. Once you know the specific watch you want, it's just a matter of putting your haggling skills to the test.

Have fun!!!

All the best.


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## Phoneix8

Phew.. Walked all the city yesterday afternoon. Visited Wempe Jewelers first but unfortunately they had sold their AP 15450 that morning, then hit up Piaget to authenticate a watch my fiance had found (was fake), then Torneau for some widespread drooling. Tried on a few comparable RO sizes at Wempe, really good customer service and was very comfortable. Am headed up to woodbury commons this labor day weekend and had wanted to swing by prestige time but unfortunately they are closed on the weekends. Hoping to secure a AP 15450 soon and to share pics with everyone as a thank you for all the time people took out to help!


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## 2muchtimeonmyhands

Presumably they had the rose gold 15450 and not the steel? Any pics?


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## vince.cb

please the nautilus...


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## Phoneix8

2muchtimeonmyhands said:


> Presumably they had the rose gold 15450 and not the steel? Any pics?


Yes I believe one of the ones I tried on as a reference was a 15450 rose gold


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## Phoneix8

vince.cb said:


> please the nautilus...


The Nautilus is an amazing watch and something I will eventually get but with an upcoming wedding would rather have an extra $10k in the pocket then invested into a watch (Tony said it best).


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## plastique999

Phoneix8 said:


> Yes I believe one of the ones I tried on as a reference was a 15450 rose gold


Funny I just tried this on as well...my wife is interested as well. 









Sent from my 16M


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## Phoneix8

I do have one question if anybody could help me out. I've looked at the AP 15450 on PrestigeTime's website and it says that "all papers are included". When I looked at the FAQ it states that in certain instances they are able to pass along the authorized dealer stamped warranty card and the manufacturers warranty. I'm confused as to how a GMS would be able to provide this benefit, the one benefit that would cause one to purchase from an AD. What do you guys think? Safe to purchase the AP from PrestigeTime? Thanks


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## plastique999

Phoneix8 said:


> I do have one question if anybody could help me out. I've looked at the AP 15450 on PrestigeTime's website and it says that "all papers are included". When I looked at the FAQ it states that in certain instances they are able to pass along the authorized dealer stamped warranty card and the manufacturers warranty. I'm confused as to how a GMS would be able to provide this benefit, the one benefit that would cause one to purchase from an AD. What do you guys think? Safe to purchase the AP from PrestigeTime? Thanks


Just curious how much you are saving on the GMS price? 
When I went to Traditional Jewelers today and looked at the RG 15450, they quoted $28,400. If it is a substantial savings, then it may be worth it. 
However the key is the 2 year manufacture warranty.

Sent from my 16M


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## plastique999

Addendum to above...looks like Prestige Time is offering at $24,310, whereas Gemnation is offering at $21,450 on chrono24. So that's $7k savings through Gemnation, not bad. I'd research about the warranty though. 


Sent from my 16M


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## 2muchtimeonmyhands

Phoneix8 said:


> Yes I believe one of the ones I tried on as a reference was a 15450 rose gold


Hmmm, the 15202 in rose gold. My eyes say yes but my brain says no LOL. o| Hopefully I'll get to see it in the metal next month. Cheers for posting the pics |>


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## 2muchtimeonmyhands

plastique999 said:


> Funny I just tried this on as well...my wife is interested as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my 16M


Thats the first decent wrist shot of the 15450or with white dial that I have seen. Very nice!


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## heuerolexomega

Phoneix8 said:


> I do have one question if anybody could help me out. I've looked at the AP 15450 on PrestigeTime's website and it says that "all papers are included". When I looked at the FAQ it states that in certain instances they are able to pass along the authorized dealer stamped warranty card and the manufacturers warranty. I'm confused as to how a GMS would be able to provide this benefit, the one benefit that would cause one to purchase from an AD. What do you guys think? Safe to purchase the AP from PrestigeTime? Thanks





plastique999 said:


> Just curious how much you are saving on the GMS price?
> When I went to Traditional Jewelers today and looked at the RG 15450, they quoted $28,400. If it is a substantial savings, then it may be worth it.
> However the key is the 2 year manufacture warranty.
> 
> Sent from my 16M





plastique999 said:


> Addendum to above...looks like Prestige Time is offering at $24,310, whereas Gemnation is offering at $21,450 on chrono24. So that's $7k savings through Gemnation, not bad. I'd research about the warranty though.
> 
> Sent from my 16M


Guys, this is my take. You can find an AD that can sell to you 15450or for 24k, that's like 15% disc, very likely (unless is a boutique edition ) 
If I where on your shoes and have an offer from an AD for 24k vs 21k from grey market (well , I would never buy from grey market, In any case I would rather buy it from a trusted seller) I would take the 3k more expensive choice of the AD. Why? 1st I wouldn't feel comfortable but importantly when you are spending over 20k dollars you really don't want to risk not just the warranty but the piece of mind that if something goes wrong you can easily address it with a phone call to your dealer or send it to AP without a shadow of a doubt that they won't give you hard time on the warranty or something else. Sorry but at that level 3k savings is really not savings, pay them and look at it as your insurance policy.
My humble opinion

Cheers !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Phoneix8

heuerolexomega said:


> Guys, this is my take. You can find an AD that can sell to you 15450or for 24k, that's like 15% disc, very likely (unless is a boutique edition )
> If I where on your shoes and have an offer from an AD for 24k vs 21k from grey market (well , I would never buy from grey market, In any case I would rather buy it from a trusted seller) I would take the 3k more expensive choice of the AD. Why? 1st I wouldn't feel comfortable but importantly when you are spending over 20k dollars you really don't want to risk not just the warranty but the piece of mind that if something goes wrong you can easily address it with a phone call to your dealer or send it to AP without a shadow of a doubt that they won't give you hard time on the warranty or something else. Sorry but at that level 3k savings is really not savings, pay them and look at it as your insurance policy.
> My humble opinion
> 
> Cheers !
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually as the OP I wanted the AP 15450 in steel, not the rose gold. That pic was just used as a reference as the AD didn't have the steel in stock at the time. The watch would be around $15k with the tax on prestige time and $2k more in the store. Prestige time says they have the manufacturers warranty so I guess in my head I'm thinking, "we'll if I get the same papers and save $2k then I dun see why I'd buy from AD". Thoughts?


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## heuerolexomega

Phoneix8 said:


> Actually as the OP I wanted the AP 15450 in steel, not the rose gold. That pic was just used as a reference as the AD didn't have the steel in stock at the time. The watch would be around $15k with the tax on prestige time and $2k more in the store. Prestige time says they have the manufacturers warranty so I guess in my head I'm thinking, "we'll if I get the same papers and save $2k then I dun see why I'd buy from AD". Thoughts?


Still, if you search around with other AD's (out of state) I bet you you can get it shipped to your door for the same 15k (maybe slightly cheaper). Remember you save money when they ship to you from out of state. Just saying....
Good luck !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## plastique999

heuerolexomega said:


> Guys, this is my take. You can find an AD that can sell to you 15450or for 24k, that's like 15% disc, very likely (unless is a boutique edition )
> If I where on your shoes and have an offer from an AD for 24k vs 21k from grey market (well , I would never buy from grey market, In any case I would rather buy it from a trusted seller) I would take the 3k more expensive choice of the AD. Why? 1st I wouldn't feel comfortable but importantly when you are spending over 20k dollars you really don't want to risk not just the warranty but the piece of mind that if something goes wrong you can easily address it with a phone call to your dealer or send it to AP without a shadow of a doubt that they won't give you hard time on the warranty or something else. Sorry but at that level 3k savings is really not savings, pay them and look at it as your insurance policy.
> My humble opinion
> 
> Cheers !
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks Jorge, I agree. If an AD could discount to $24k, then a savings of $3k would not be worth it in my eyes for this particular piece with the backing of an AD.



Phoneix8 said:


> Actually as the OP I wanted the AP 15450 in steel, not the rose gold. That pic was just used as a reference as the AD didn't have the steel in stock at the time. The watch would be around $15k with the tax on prestige time and $2k more in the store. Prestige time says they have the manufacturers warranty so I guess in my head I'm thinking, "we'll if I get the same papers and save $2k then I dun see why I'd buy from AD". Thoughts?


Same with above, I think for around $2k savings I would choose the experience and support of an AD. It's nice to have that peace of mind, as well as the relationship with the AD.

Sent from my 16M


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## Phoneix8

Yay!! Talked to my AD again and talked about the savings I'd be able to achieve through the GMS and after a brief back and forth was able to secure the Audemars Piguet 15450ST for only a few hundred more than the GMS! In addition they're throwing in an extra year of warranty and lifetime polishing. In the end I really thought it over and preferred picking it up in person and from an AD for such an expensive timepiece, not to mention the 3 years of manufacturers warranty!

Upon pickup tomorrow (was told a table and a bottle of champagne would be waiting for me) pictures will surely be taken and posted here so look for them tomorrow night. I'm a very happy camper indeed, thanks to all the advice everyone has given me! :-!:-d


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## plastique999

Phoneix8 said:


> Yay!! Talked to my AD again and talked about the savings I'd be able to achieve through the GMS and after a brief back and forth was able to secure the Audemars Piguet 15450ST for only a few hundred more than the GMS! In addition they're throwing in an extra year of warranty and lifetime polishing. In the end I really thought it over and preferred picking it up in person and from an AD for such an expensive timepiece, not to mention the 3 years of manufacturers warranty!
> 
> Upon pickup tomorrow (was told a table and a bottle of champagne would be waiting for me) pictures will surely be taken and posted here so look for them tomorrow night. I'm a very happy camper indeed, thanks to all the advice everyone has given me! :-!:-d


Awesome, congrats!!
Curious which AD you dealt with (you can PM me if you don't want to publicize). 
A bottle of champagne - that is classy!

Sent from my 16M


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## drhr

Phoneix8 said:


> Yay!! Talked to my AD again and talked about the savings I'd be able to achieve through the GMS and after a brief back and forth was able to secure the Audemars Piguet 15450ST for only a few hundred more than the GMS! In addition they're throwing in an extra year of warranty and lifetime polishing. In the end I really thought it over and preferred picking it up in person and from an AD for such an expensive timepiece, not to mention the 3 years of manufacturers warranty!
> 
> Upon pickup tomorrow (was told a table and a bottle of champagne would be waiting for me) pictures will surely be taken and posted here so look for them tomorrow night. I'm a very happy camper indeed, thanks to all the advice everyone has given me! :-!:-d


Outstanding, your perseverence has paid off! Wish I could've gotten an AD to come close to grey. As that was near impossible, I went with Prestigetime, no complaints. Enjoy the watch and congrats, some pics to tide you over :-! . . . .


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## Phoneix8

plastique999 said:


> Awesome, congrats!!
> Curious which AD you dealt with (you can PM me if you don't want to publicize).
> A bottle of champagne - that is classy!
> 
> Sent from my 16M


The AD iss Wempe Jewelers which is located right in the heart of all the watch boutiques on 5th ave. I highly recommend them, this is my first big high end purchase and was a bit worried on how smooth the transaction was gonna go but they made everything a breeze!


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## Phoneix8

drhr said:


> Outstanding, your perseverence has paid off! Wish I could've gotten an AD to come close to grey. As that was near impossible, I went with Prestigetime, no complaints. Enjoy the watch and congrats, some pics to tide you over :-! . . . .


*Drools* Omg the pictures are beautiful, can't wait until this afternoon. *HAPPY DANCE*


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## Phoneix8

I got my AP15450!!! So incredibly happy and the dial is absolutely beautiful in person, the waffle dial refracts so much light in so many angles. Here are the pictures I promised everyone, thanks again to all of you guys! This forum rocks! :-!


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## heuerolexomega

Congrats on a great addition ,
It's an awesome feeling !
Wear it in good Health !!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Donut

WOW !!!

Huge Congratulations ! Enjoy in the very best of health.


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## plastique999

Looks fantastic! Well done


Sent from my 16M


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## 2muchtimeonmyhands

Many congrats, looks great!


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## Phoneix8

Thanks so much, the fit is perfect!


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## Crunchy

I can feel your joy in the unboxing. It really is a super pretty watch with the silver shiny dial!


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## shnjb

very cool watch.
AP is aesthetically tough to beat.


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## tony20009

Phoneix8 said:


> Yay!! Talked to my AD again and talked about the savings I'd be able to achieve through the GMS and after a brief back and forth was able to secure the Audemars Piguet 15450ST for only a few hundred more than the GMS! In addition they're throwing in an extra year of warranty and lifetime polishing. In the end I really thought it over and preferred picking it up in person and from an AD for such an expensive timepiece, not to mention the 3 years of manufacturers warranty!
> 
> Upon pickup tomorrow (was told a table and a bottle of champagne would be waiting for me) pictures will surely be taken and posted here so look for them tomorrow night. I'm a very happy camper indeed, thanks to all the advice everyone has given me! :-!:-d


Congrats! Well done.

I'm sure you'll enjoy your new watch. Wear it in good health.

All the best.


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## Dragonutity

It it's about prestige, patek wins every time.
In terms of look and technology, I give it to 
AP.


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## cranthir

i saw this on https://www.crownandcaliber.com/blo...iate-the-most-and-which-depreciate-the-least/


Brands That Tend To Depreciate The Least*​
Patek Philippe
Rolex
A. Lange & Sohne
Vacheron Constantin
Jaeger Lecoultre



how true is it? think only


Patek Philippe
Rolex

keep any values


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## DonQuixote

Join the club!


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## Chief F1 Fan

Phoneix8 said:


> I got my AP15450!!! So incredibly happy and the dial is absolutely beautiful in person, the waffle dial refracts so much light in so many angles. Here are the pictures I promised everyone, thanks again to all of you guys! This forum rocks! :-!


That's a beautiful piece, nice pick up OP. Hope you enjoy it for many years to come.


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## cheesydude

great purchase- looks perfect!


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## plastique999

Hard choice, love my AP and will get a 5712 in time. 
But still love VC, carries so much history and tradition









Sent from my 16M


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## Dapuma

cranthir said:


> i saw this on https://www.crownandcaliber.com/blo...iate-the-most-and-which-depreciate-the-least/
> 
> 
> Brands That Tend To Depreciate The Least*​
> 
> Patek Philippe
> Rolex
> A. Lange & Sohne
> Vacheron Constantin
> Jaeger Lecoultre
> 
> 
> how true is it? think only
> 
> 
> Patek Philippe
> Rolex
> 
> keep any values


From what I have seen PP and Rolex depreciate the least

Lange's as i looked into getting one seem to lose 30-40% just taking them off the lot from MSRP - generally you can negotiate with the AD, or should at a minimum, or look used for Lange if the AD won't take 25%+ off (for most models) not sure about the new entry 37mm saxonia

JLC seem to be able to get a 20-30% discount online pretty easily, The Grande Reverso Calendar (day date) msrp for 12 and most sites have it somewhere around 8 new and used i have seen them go as low as 6 used (as i have looked at grabbing one of these)

cannot speak for VC, i don't really care for their style compared to PP Lange JLC

Anyone feel free to step in if you think that rational is off


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## peire06

In terms of value, I agree with Dapuma, PP and Rolex are clearly the safest choice. AP and then VC. However, I wouldn't chose a watch just based on value retention, unless you know you'll resell your watch soon. You should also consider quality/price of service. PP, AP and VC offer excellent service. If you have the budget, go for PP. Personally I think PP is on the 1st step of the luxury watches staircase.


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