# School me on Ball watches



## G26okie

Good morning, this is going to be a long one so buckle up,

So yesterday my wife and I went down to our local high end mall which has an Omega, Longines, Rolex, Breitling, and Tag Heuer boutique as well as a Tourneau. This was for some pre-fathers day present scouting. I went in with the full intention of being completely smitten by Oris and Longines and I should say my current daily wear and "sport" watch is a Tag Aquaracer 500m.

First visit was to Omega. The Aqua Terra and/or Planet ocean had really been my dream watch for quite a while, however for some reason seeing them in the flesh they really didn't do much for me. Also while I could afford one, they cost more than I would ever feel comfortable spending.

Next up was Tourneau where I knew I would see some Oris and Longines. Nothing from Longines excited me at all, maybe except the Legend Diver but my wife nixed that one quick. While looking at Oris my wife and I's attention completely shifted to the Ball display next to it, I mean completely captured by the light blue Marvelight, and grey Fireman Racer Classic. These two watches were absolutely gorgeous, especially the way the light played with the highly polished applied markers on both models, and my wife loved the counter weight detail on the second hands.

Last up was Tag Heuer, and we both loved the new Link GMT grey dial with rose gold markers/hands, I would rate it just as attractive as the Ball models we saw, however it does have some things going for it that Ball doesn't: much more well known brand, display caseback, but it is also $3,500 sticker.

Now, I am not looking for a decision made for me, as #1 my wife will be picking this one out on her own so I might end up with whatever, but I'd like to know how does the fit and finish and overall quality of the Ball brand, compare to brands like Oris, Longines and Tag Heuer. While I did get to hold them both, it is hard to determine quality level IMO for the few minutes you get to handle them.

BTW this will most likely be a watch that is never flipped, pics below(not my own) of the models I've referenced.

Marvelight









Fireman Racer Classic in Grey









Tag Heuer Link GMT


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## jimiwilli

I've owned several Tags, a GMT Carrera, a CV2010, a formula 1, and an Indy 500 model. The brand is definitely more known, and you will see a lot of them on others wrist. Tag has had some significant changes at the top of the organization, and IMHO, I think they struggle with determining what kind of brand they want to be.

I currently own a Ball Hydrocarbon (I'll attach pics) and I used to own a ball Engineer Master II (which I miss dearly, might pick another one up soon). I think Ball watches are made of better quality cases, and the hands and finer details are astonishing compared to Tag. I've only come across one person with a Ball watch on their wrist in person, and after a conversation he was a pretty strong watch aficionado. The history of the brand is quite intriguing. Their models are classy, unique, and very understating, but when you look close, the finer attention to detail is what mesmerizes me. For the most part (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) both brands like many other Swiss brands, use some version of an ETA movement. I did find my 2 Carreras to be a little more "noisy" and could feel the movement. I can say I can't recall that happening with either of my Ball watches.

In the end, both are great brands. You probably won't receive as many compliments on the Ball, but I think that's because people are usually trying to figure out what it is on your wrist due to their strong presence. 
















I really miss this one :-(









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## timefleas

I have owned all watches referenced, and all are excellent watches. Of Oris, Longines and and Tag Heuer, I personally like Oris, but only a few of their models, such as the polished bezel version of the TT1 Day Date. Ball certainly is competitive with this group, with the main difference of course being the tritium lume tubes on the Ball watches, something that of course is only relevant at night but still factors heavily in why I like Ball watches. I would encourage you to look at the Trainmaster Cleveland Express, in particular, the silver dial is a very attractive piece, with raised Arabic numerals that look silver in some light sources, and blue in others. I believe this is one of only a few of Ball's true masterpieces, and is available with dealer discount at well under $3000. I actually prefer black dials, so I have a couple of special edition versions of this, but I do recommend taking a look at the silver dial CE. I am sure others will chime in with helpful suggestions as well. Good luck--a noble cause!


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## Nokie

Tag used to be good before they lost their way. I would always take a Ball over any of the other brands you mention. 

Great value, great build quality, and not something you will see on everyone's wrist, IMHO.


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## Dan Pierce

Nokie said:


> Tag used to be good before they lost their way. I would always take a Ball over any of the other brands you mention.
> 
> Great value, great build quality, and not something you will see on everyone's wrist, IMHO.


Agreed, much more unique than other fine Swiss manufacturers. 
dP


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## G26okie

timefleas said:


> I have owned all watches referenced, and all are excellent watches. Of Oris, Longines and and Tag Heuer, I personally like Oris, but only a few of their models, such as the polished bezel version of the TT1 Day Date. Ball certainly is competitive with this group, with the main difference of course being the tritium lume tubes on the Ball watches, something that of course is only relevant at night but still factors heavily in why I like Ball watches. I would encourage you to look at the Trainmaster Cleveland Express, in particular, the silver dial is a very attractive piece, with raised Arabic numerals that look silver in some light sources, and blue in others. I believe this is one of only a few of Ball's true masterpieces, and is available with dealer discount at well under $3000. I actually prefer black dials, so I have a couple of special edition versions of this, but I do recommend taking a look at the silver dial CE. I am sure others will chime in with helpful suggestions as well. Good luck--a noble cause!


Thank you for all the great responses. I know I am in the Ball forum so you guys might be a little biased but I'd be lying if I wasn't considering them as well because they are very unique and I already have a Tag.

@timefleas I did take a look at that model on their website and it is nice, however I am looking for at least 100m wr and a metal bracelet.

Are there any quality differences between the Fireman series and Engineer II series? If I had to pick one today, I would be leaning towards that Fireman Racer Classic in grey.


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## samanator

So I own Omega, Rolex, Glashutte Original, Grand Seiko, Nomos and Ball. In fact I have had over 60 different Ball watches over the years. I've had a few Tags, but currently they have nothing in their line of interest to me. If they build an 1887 Silverstone in brown I'd be interested. The lume is addicting on a Ball. The line is very large so picking something could be a challenge. I think you will enjoy it. Check out our Photo Album at the top of the forum and the lost Ball watches from the past to see quite a few of the models.


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## gtuck

I have three Ball watches (along with Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Bell&Ross and Tourby)--Trainmaster Worldtimer, Power Reserve and Engineer II Red Label GMT.

You might take a look at the gray dial Engineer II Red Label. It has the teak deck effect reminiscent of the Aqua Terra and is stunning in a brown croc strap. Bracelet is also available of course.

See Samanator's review in the Photo Album section.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f256/engineer-master-red-label-40-43mm-gmt-chronometer-600778.html


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## ~tc~

I second pretty much all of the above, with the below being what attracts me:
- the company story is pretty much unequalled, especially for a guy like me in quality/calibration
- the fit/finish is equal or better than most everything in a reasonable price range (let's say Rolex and below)
- the lume is absolutely addicting. If you need to read a watch in darkness (on planes on long international flights for me), GTLS is the only way to go and nobody does it better than Ball, period.

Technically, the EMII line is a little more robust than the fireman with higher shock and antimagnetic ratings.


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## BBBButter

Ha. I am in love with those exact two models. The Engineer II Marvelight in Blue and the Racer Classic Grey with Bracelet. 

The Marvelight is definitely the flashier of the two. More polished surfaces. I've been leaning towards the Marvelight because it has bigger brighter tritium tubes and a classic, some would say homage to the Rolex Datejust, style. I feel it stands on its own and has a cohesive, elegant style that blurs the line between business and traditional sport watches. 

The Racer Classic is just so lovely. I can't get over the shark tooth indices and the beautiful grey dial. It is so understated with so much to love. For me, the only downside to the racer classic is the dial size, which seems a bit large for the hands and indices, lots of space outside that circle doing nothing. Not a big thing, but there. I wish the date window was color matched, also minor. And I really wish the bracelet matched the face. The face is in such a classic 60's style, but the band is the epitome of modern. I love the band, and I love the face, just not together. 

For me, probably going to be Marvelight, because it's more cohesive stylistically and just that little bit brighter and flashier, which I've come to like. 

But man, great taste. 😉

BTW, there are excellent reviews available for both models online with a quick Google search. 



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## ~tc~

I should also add that the EMII bracelet with button lock is much nicer than the friction lock Fireman bracelet.


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## ten13th

jimiwilli said:


> I really miss this one :-(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Love the watch + strap combo on this. Just perfect!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bensdaddyjoe

Saw one.....bought one.....arrived 4 days ago. The list of quality divers over the years I've ever owned were the Longines Hydroconquest, Christopher Ward Trident Pro 600, Oris Aquis, and a Seiko MM300.

This Ball Engineer Master II diver is absolute perfection IMHO. Size, comfort, strength, and the American story that it has to tell; I don't know of an occasion where I won't be wearing this watch. I am blown away.


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## Okapi001

~tc~ said:


> I second pretty much all of the above, with the below being what attracts me:
> - the company story is pretty much unequalled, especially for a guy like me in quality/calibration
> - the fit/finish is equal or better than most everything in a reasonable price range (let's say Rolex and below)
> - the lume is absolutely addicting. If you need to read a watch in darkness (on planes on long international flights for me), GTLS is the only way to go and nobody does it better than Ball, period.


I have three Ball watches and so I can qualify as a Ball fan. But it should be added that the present Swiss (and to some degree Chinese) Ball is in fact a different company, and there was a hiatus of a few years between the demise of the original American Ball and the establishment of the new Ball. On the other hand the new owner is trying to preserve the railroad legacy of the original Ball.

It should also be added that there is another Swiss brand with a good selection of tritium tubes' automatic watches - Ogival. The problem is, they are next to impossible to buy outside the Taiwan and some other East Asian countries.


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## timefleas

Okapi001 said:


> I have three Ball watches and so I can qualify as a Ball fan. But it should be added that the present Swiss (and to some degree Chinese) Ball is in fact a different company, and there was a hiatus of a few years between the demise of the original American Ball and the establishment of the new Ball. On the other hand the new owner is trying to preserve the railroad legacy of the original Ball.
> 
> It should also be added that there is another Swiss brand with a good selection of tritium tubes' automatic watches - Ogival. The problem is, they are next to impossible to buy outside the Taiwan and some other East Asian countries.


There are in fact MANY companies (at least 30, at last count) which employ tritium tubes--Traser, Mondaine, Doxa, etc.--Ogival, to me a somewhat dubious brand, has a rather minor range of offerings (10 models in the "Eagle Eye" series?)--but what intrigued me most in your statement is the allusion to that fact that Ball watches are partially manufactured in China ("_the present Swiss (and to some degree Chinese) Ball ")--_care to elaborate?


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## Okapi001

timefleas said:


> There are in fact MANY companies (at least 30, at last count) which employ tritium tubes--Traser, Mondaine, Doxa, etc.--Ogival, to me a somewhat dubious brand, has a rather minor range of offerings (10 models in the "Eagle Eye" series?)--but what intrigued me most in your statement is the allusion to that fact that Ball watches are partially manufactured in China ("_the present Swiss (and to some degree Chinese) Ball ")--_care to elaborate?


Most of the watches made by those companies are quartz. I had strictly mechanicals in mind. There are more than 10 models of mechanical Ogivals with tritium available (some of them are not listed on the Ogival website any more, but still available in stores). Of course there are also Vostok Europe and Deep Blue with several tritium mechanical watches, but they too have fewer models than Ogival. Anyway, my point is, there are brands that make tritium watches at least as good as Ball (as far as the night visibility is concerned).

As for the Ball, at least dials are known to be made in China (according to the info leaked by the Swiss company that makes tritium tubes). But I was in fact referring to the ownership of the company and association with the Chinese (Hongkong) company Asia Commercial Holdings Ltd, which also owns Juvenia.

BTW, owners of the Ogival are from Taiwan.


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## timefleas

Okapi001 said:


> Most of the watches made by those companies are quartz. I had strictly mechanicals in mind. There are more than 10 models of mechanical Ogivals with tritium available (some of them are not listed on the Ogival website any more, but still available in stores). Of course there are also Vostok Europe and Deep Blue with several tritium mechanical watches, but they too have fewer models than Ogival. Anyway, my point is, there are brands that make tritium watches at least as good as Ball (as far as the night visibility is concerned).
> 
> As for the Ball, at least dials are known to be made in China (according to the info leaked by the Swiss company that makes tritium tubes). But I was in fact referring to the ownership of the company and association with the Chinese (Hongkong) company Asia Commercial Holdings Ltd, which also owns Juvenia.
> 
> BTW, owners of the Ogival are from Taiwan.


I think we are worlds apart here. I listed a couple of brands as _representative _of the very large number of watchmakers that use, or have used, tritium as a form of illumination, including both automatics and quartz--below is a larger, but not complete list, for purposes of illustration.

Ogival, to me looks like something along the lines of Invicta, and whether that is a correct characterization or not, I don't think they are playing in the same ballpark as Ball--and, again personally, I don't think ANY of the brands in the list below come close to Ball in integrating tritium tubes effectively into their watch designs.

But finally, I come back to my original point, that Ball is in part made in China--you support this statement by repeating innuendo _"at least dials are known to be made in China (according to the info leaked by the Swiss company that makes tritium tubes_)"--while this may be true, it needs to be supported by some sort of evidence--rather than third hand unattributed hearsay--if you have evidence to support your claims, please share it with us.

Watches that use tritium (a list made in 2012--there have been several additions since then):

Alexandre Christie

Armourlite

Ball

Blue Thunder

Deep Blue

Doxa

Equipe

Firemark

H3 Tactical

KHS

LL Bean

Luminox

Marathon

Mondaine

MWC

Nite

Olympia Star

Omega

Praetorian

Prometheus

Reactor

Rolex (1960-1998)

Smith and Wesson

SMW

Sottomarino

Swiss Timer

Tawatec

Traser

Truglo

UZI


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## Okapi001

timefleas said:


> But finally, I come back to my original point, that Ball is in part made in China--you support this statement by repeating innuendo _"at least dials are known to be made in China (according to the info leaked by the Swiss company that makes tritium tubes_)"--while this may be true, it needs to be supported by some sort of evidence--rather than third hand unattributed hearsay--if you have evidence to support your claims, please share it with us.


I will repeat slowly: I didn't say they are (partly) made in China - I was referring to the ownership of the company.


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## elconquistador

Just be prepared to tolerate the laughter after you tell people you are wearing a ball skin diver. 

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## Toothbras

Man, OP, you really like some ugly watches


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## Voodoo13

^^"Ballskin" . Lmmfao. I personally loves my Balls. The fit and finish far exceeds the price range. Please excuse me, I'm going to look at my Night Train in the dark.... 

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## gatorguy959

Do you recommend the Skin Diver new model? I am thinking that or a Planet Ocean but like the lume and less known name brand.


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## oris65

Another questions on Ball and its Tritium is how long does the Le brightness last? Once the brightness faded, what is the cost of the replacement?


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## Okapi001

Nobody really knows for sure about the cost. The tubes should be fairly well visible for app. 20-25 years.


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## G26okie

Well, the Ball was a contender guys, it really was. But I was able to convince my wife, and I don't know how, to up the ante and get my first Rolex.


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## oris65

I was so close to getting either the Victoria or the Ohio until someone on the forum here mentioned about the lume life (if that's the term) as the older models would have been on the market for some years.


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## ~tc~

I love how everyone gets so worried about the GTLS lume life when it's longer than traditional lume ...


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## timefleas

oris65 said:


> I was so close to getting either the Victoria or the Ohio until someone on the forum here mentioned about the lume life (if that's the term) as the older models would have been on the market for some years.


Have to agree with tc--"oris665", you do realize superluminova also a lume life, and that in fact it will be long gone before the tritium tube loses its lume completely, right? At least with tritium you know the cycle of degradation, half its original luminosity over the course of 12.32 years, half of that remaining amount over the next 12.32 years, half of that remaining amount over....and so on--it will take many many years before tritium completely runs out of gas--long after you have re-lumed your superlumnova watches, once or twice over.


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## samanator

~tc~ said:


> I love how everyone gets so worried about the GTLS lume life when it's longer than traditional lume ...


 Thanks Peter and tc for this. I'm happy to see other s championing this. I see this as one of the big non-topics that seems to come up far too often. I've considered posting an are you concerned that your superluminova will die in 14-18 years thread in other places? Then I regained my sanity. I've written summary posts on this here, and another watch forums. Check the reference area here.


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## Okapi001

There is however a (big) difference. You can relume the watch yourself with a superluminova, or send the watch to one of the many watchmakers that provide such a service. It is much more complicated, time consuming and expensive to change the tritium tubes.


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## timefleas

Okapi001 said:


> There is however a (big) difference. You can relume the watch yourself with a superluminova, or send the watch to one of the many watchmakers that provide such a service. It is much more complicated, time consuming and expensive to change the tritium tubes.


Agree completely (except for reluming your own watch(?!))--there is a BIG difference--one of those "you get what you pay for" things, I think--I'll take the t-tubes over luminova any day of the week myself.


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## Okapi001

timefleas said:


> I'll take the t-tubes over luminova any day of the week myself.


Me too, but I'm aware that once enough tritium will decay to helium, it will most probably be too complicated or expensive to change the tubes.

Here are my six watches (three Swiss and one Chinese brand) with tritium tubes.
View attachment 7395122


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## ~tc~

Okapi001 said:


> There is however a (big) difference. You can relume the watch yourself with a superluminova, or send the watch to one of the many watchmakers that provide such a service. It is much more complicated, time consuming and expensive to change the tritium tubes.


If you're sending it off, what does it matter if you're sending to an independent relume guy or the manufacturer to have the tubes replaced?

Also, while the number of electrons generated may indeed cut in half, that doesn't mean the luminance will cut in half. It is very probable that the tritium generates more electrons than the lume can convert to begin with, and one will not see the lume decrease at all until the saturation level is reached.


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## Okapi001

> what does it matter if you're sending to an independent relume guy or the manufacturer to have the tubes replaced?


The manufacturer may not exist any more. The manufacturer may not provide that service any more (AFAIK Ball doesn't replace tubes, but only whole dials - and there are no guarantees spare dials for a particular model will be available 30 years from now). The cost may be significantly higher.

I only know about one company in the whole world doing tritium tubes modifications or replacements on a third party dials. And it is expensive.


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## Voodoo13

~tc~ said:


> I love how everyone gets so worried about the GTLS lume life when it's longer than traditional lume ...


Yeah, people act like the watch just dies! 
When the tubes finally go, I mean totally gone, in however many years it takes, you will be left with a watch that's just like every other watch out there: (One that doesn't glow in the dark) 
It's a real non issue for me.

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## Okapi001

It all depends on the watch. For example I would buy Ball 60 seconds even without tritium tubes. But I would never buy Night Train without tritium tubes.


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## samanator

Okapi001 said:


> The manufacturer may not exist any more. The manufacturer may not provide that service any more (AFAIK Ball doesn't replace tubes, but only whole dials - and there are no guarantees spare dials for a particular model will be available 30 years from now). The cost may be significantly higher.
> 
> I only know about one company in the whole world doing tritium tubes modifications or replacements on a third party dials. And it is expensive.


There are a few other sources that have emerged and MB-Microtek seems to be solid for the time being. Not certain where the expensive part came from? Anyone who has had a replacement it has been reasonable and a total replacement is about the same or less than conventional lume. I'd personally be more worried about conventional lume in a ceramic bezel insert or under a sapphire insert. These have the potential to be far more expensive than two full tube replacements. Maybe this should be asked of the Tudor Pelagos, Grand Seiko sport watches, IWC...owners?


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## samanator

Okapi001 said:


> The manufacturer may not exist any more. The manufacturer may not provide that service any more (AFAIK Ball doesn't replace tubes, but only whole dials - and there are no guarantees spare dials for a particular model will be available 30 years from now). The cost may be significantly higher.
> 
> I only know about one company in the whole world doing tritium tubes modifications or replacements on a third party dials. And it is expensive.


If the market exist for something someone will fill the gap. Watches are not the biggest consumer of GTLS tubes. The fire arm market is much larger, plus other areas using these. Remember when tritium paint went away something took it's place. When quartz watch batteries with mercury went away something took it's place. I'd be more worried about something that is specialized like a discontinued low volume watch part than something that is used across several industries?

Besides in the worst case nearly every one of these could be replaced by conventional lume filling the hole or tube in the 25 year old watch. Purest would just leave the dead tube like they do with dead lume if there are no replacements. As I said a source can be found.


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## Okapi001

samanator said:


> Anyone who has had a replacement it has been reasonable and a total replacement is about the same or less than conventional lume.


Can you back this up with some numbers? How much is a set of hands for the Night Train, for example? A dial for the 60 Seconds?


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## samanator

Okapi001 said:


> Can you back this up with some numbers? How much is a set of hands for the Night Train, for example? A dial for the 60 Seconds?


You need to search out the posts, but we have prices that people have paid posted. I don't believe it was those specific watches. Additionally your indicating whole parts not just the lume(Tube). In these cases it was just the lume (Tube) that was replaced. I believe we did have someone change a whole dial and hands on a Mad Cow or some other EHC and it was about $200.


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## Okapi001

WUS (2010).


> I went to the official Ball service center, and was quoted the following prices in Ringgit Malaysia (RM).
> 
> Exchange Rate: USD$1.00 = RM3.20
> 
> Service: RM1100
> Tritium Tube Replacement: RM35 per Tritium Tube
> Polishing (Metal Strap): RM350
> 
> I was told, people usually replace their tubes after 10-15 years, because it won't be as bright as it initially was ... Half-life of Tritium is believed to be at 12 years ...
> 
> For now, my watch has 52 tubes, and the cost to replace all is 52*RM35 = RM1820 (approx. *USD$570*) ..


BTW, NightTrain has 75 tubes, so according to these prices app. $800!

WUS (2014).


> So after a month or so being without my watch Rob finally received a reply back from Ball.
> 
> 1.* They will not replace the individual tubes with new ones*.
> 2. *They will only replace the entire dial.*


As for the availability of spare parts - WUS, 2014.


> Rob (Ball Authorized Dealer, of course) contacted Ball a year ago with regards to replacing the original Fireman dial, just out of production by 4 or 5 years at the time, and found that* there were no longer any dials available*-


Anyway, I don't realy understand why it is so diffucult to get a straighforward and accurate answer from Ball regarding costs of tube replacement.


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## Gman06880

I have a Ball Aviator 44mm and it is the only watch I have never considered flipping...it is unique, terrific quality and one of the few aviators that is waterproof beyond others. It is also extremely comfortable to wear...good luck...you will enjoy it for years.


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## Pencey Prep

Voodoo13 said:


> Yeah, people act like the watch just dies!
> When the tubes finally go, I mean totally gone, in however many years it takes, you will be left with a watch that's just like every other watch out there: (One that doesn't glow in the dark)
> It's a real non issue for me.
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


You make some good points but the Tritium tubes are what makes Ball stand out from the crowd(no pun intended). The company really should be more transparent about costs and availability of replacement tubes and/or dials. Having said that it would not deter me from buying any of their lovely watches. I am a fan


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## kelvinlehi

Greetings. I saw a ball watch a couple of days back and after some minutes chatting with the owner i really got interested in the watch. i currently wear rolex and a breitling but a ball watch wont be a bad idea to add to my collection


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## BUCKSHOT1969

I'm new here and just bought my first watch, a Tag Aquaracer. Since buying it I've kind of become addicted to reading about the different manufacturers and trying to educate myself. After reading a good bit I've kind of been drawn to Ball since both of my grandfathers worked for the railroad. My one grandfather was kind of well known and when he retired in the early 60's it was covered on TV. Anyway, after reading Ball's history I have to believe that he probably wore one so I've pretty much decided to pick one up in the next few weeks. 

So thanks for everybody who responded here, it's been fun to read and very helpful.


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