# Why is Resale Horrible?!?



## Dtsitouris (Jan 12, 2014)

I am a seiko nut. And own a few Grand Seikos. Have sold a few others. The current collection is:

SBGC003
SBDX065
SBGR083


My question is...why is the resale so horrible? They are far and away the best bang per buck watches going...so it doesn't really make that much sense. It does in the general community as Seiko is not universally associated with high-end watches, but in the collector community, it is puzzling.

Thoughts?


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## Foxman2k (Jun 16, 2014)

I've found it to be quite the opposite personally


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## Dtsitouris (Jan 12, 2014)

Wow really? I feel like you can sell them but it is usually at a significant loss off MSRP


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## Pencey Prep (Apr 9, 2016)

Until I joined this Forum I knew very little about Grand Seiko. Now I know a lot more and have tried a few on my wrist and have been impressed. A GS Quartz has become one of my Grail Watches
BUT
They are not really that well known outside of Japan to non WISers.
(Hopefully that will change as they truly are a superb product)
So their resale is poor.
It is just a sad fact of life that some excellent products fly under the radar while others don't.
Personally I would only ever buy a GS if I truly loved it and had no intention of ever selling it


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## tomatoes (Sep 13, 2012)

Agree with Pencey on buying a GS with no intention of selling it ever. That's exactly what I did after dumping all my Swiss pieces.


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

My observation is that the resale ratio has dropped significantly since the availability in the US market place. And as the number of retail outlets increases the US the prices of preowned seem to have dropped some more. When they were not as readily available they retained a higher value.

Then the fact that the marketing and name recognition with non WIS is almost non existent.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

GS is the Audi of the watch world.....drive it off the lot and the value looses X0%.


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

I had only one GS. Bought it used with the intention to keep it forever. However, I had to sell it several months later. This is so far my quickest sale - it took around 1 hour from posting the ad to the actual sale at a negligible loss.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Because of the brand stigma in foreign markets.
I'll rephrase it for you, "They are the best bang per buck unless you intend to sell."
Unless it's a hard to aquire limited model, buying pre-owned would be your best bet.


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## MLJinAK (Feb 14, 2015)

GS resale is extremely good, and NOT horrible for these reasons:


1. Best bang for the buck goes both ways...
'Why buy used at a high price when I can buy new and STILL get a good deal?'
Sellers know this and have to price their product to sell. 

2. Also, if resale is perceived to be low, then it's STILL the best bang for your buck as a buyer. 
You could conceivably buy 3 used GS autos (or one new GS Diver and a new quartz) for the price of a good condition used Rolex Sub. 
That's an outstanding bang for your buck!

3. Part of the allure of GS is flawless Zaratzu polishing. A used GS is VISIBLY used. That has an impact on resale. 
Everyone loves their "battle scars" and talk about "character", but other people's "character" is quite unattractive. Could come from misuse and poor ownership - buyer don't know. 

If I'm getting a GS, I want it to have that beautiful trademark Zaratzu shine. I'll ding it up, but they're my dings and I know how it happened. 



Caution: If you want high resale values, what does that mean? Do you want AD's to stop giving discounts on new models? 
Or for GS to raise prices to Rolex levels so we can squeak out another $500 when we flip?

If you want resale, follow the marketing and buy Rolex, Patek, or extremely limited editions and put them in a safe. 

Please enjoy the ability to buy new and used GS's at a good price while you can. I have a feeling it's only a matter of time before "the market" accepts Japanese watches on the same level as Swiss.


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## jupiter6 (Jan 8, 2015)

Pencey Prep said:


> BUT
> They are not really that well known outside of Japan to non WISers.
> 
> So their resale is poor.
> it


People who aren't WIS aren't going to buy a second hand watch anyway, so I don't see why that would affect the resale value.


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

MLJinAK said:


> I have a feeling it's only a matter of time before "the market" accepts Japanese watches on the same level as Swiss.


Sadly that's not likely to happen...and it will be years before that happens, if it happens.

People's (non-WIS'ers that makes up the majority of the market) perception is just that, a perception. For that to turn around and realize it's not "just a Seiko" will takes years, if not decades.

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## Jezza (Aug 4, 2010)

I think, at least among WIS, part of the problem is the general uncertainty about service. I have always admired GS watches, but obtaining service for them is questionable at best. Seiko USA has announced it will provide all services for GS watches with the exception of polishing, but I'm still skeptical as to whether the level of quality is on par with Rolex or Omega.


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## juicyfruit (Jul 31, 2016)

Resale on most luxury watches is terrible:

Watches: Which Watch Brand Is the Best Investment? | Money

GS are sold as combining the best of both worlds with the spring drive and quartz accuracy. This probably doesn't appeal to many buyers. After all any quartz watch is more accurate than any mechanical watch. So it could be this is really the worst of both worlds.

GS do make some attractive watches though. I've seen a GS Snowflake in person and it's an attractive watch.


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## jakdotdot (Jan 12, 2017)

Yep, if you paid anywhere near MSRP for a watch, expect to get hosed on resale.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

MLJinAK said:


> GS resale is extremely good, and NOT horrible for these reasons:
> 
> 1. Best bang for the buck goes both ways...
> 'Why buy used at a high price when I can buy new and STILL get a good deal?'
> ...


AD's don't discount products simply because they like to, but rather because value is determined by the market, and what price they are willing to bear.
Like you I very much prefer new watches in pristine condition, but there are great bargains to be had when buying used.
Maintenance cost and availability may also dissuade some buyers.
Lastly, outside of Asia and the WIS community, GS is practically unknown. It's always harder to flip a watch when its target market is small. Especially when it comes to regular run of the mill models which aren't popular or coveted.
Personally I don't realy care. I bought mine for keeps and don't intend on ever parting with it.
Flippers are advised to think long and hard before pulling the trigger. But when buying new this applies to every brand.


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## serve 1st (Jan 9, 2014)

just my .02 guys...
I could only wonder what would happen if SEIKO decided to brand their GS line in much the same way as Toyota did with Lexus. Its known as a Lexus for good reason and commands higher price, prestige, etc... Give the GS brand separation and the sky is the limit. IMO-- A GS should not carry the same logo / branding as the $200 model range. just sayin...


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## tacotom (Jan 6, 2015)

all the better to buy preowned if thats the case! But i tend to find neither extreme is ever the truth.


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## Allan_de_dub (Oct 18, 2016)

From personal experience I would not say the resale value is terrible, especially if the watch was bought pre-owned to begin. You might even make some money with the highly coveted limited editions, such as the SBGW033, that sells for more than the original MSRP now, even though there are 1300 whereas certain Grand Seiko limited editions are as low as 30 total production. 

As others have said it has to do with perception and the overall market. If I know a certain Grand Seiko model sells around a certain price I'm not going to offer to pay significantly more to acquire one. Similarly, if people are not aware of the intrinsic value of Grand Seiko they are unlikely to pay for them.

Lastly, it is a smaller market compared to Rolex and Omega for example, but there are some very dedicated collectors in this space.


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## panerluminomi (Aug 20, 2016)

serve 1st said:


> just my .02 guys...
> I could only wonder what would happen if SEIKO decided to brand their GS line in much the same way as Toyota did with Lexus. Its known as a Lexus for good reason and commands higher price, prestige, etc... Give the GS brand separation and the sky is the limit. IMO-- A GS should not carry the same logo / branding as the $200 model range. just sayin...


This is exactly what I have always thought.

If Rolex made watches that started at 50$, I think it would likely take a toll on the brand's image / name / resale value. The fact that Seiko isn't a Swiss brand also means that it starts from a position of less strength. I absolutely love Seiko (wearing an SKX007 as I type this), but I think GS, at least outside of Japan, would be better rebranded as part of Credor or as something else entirely.


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## Pencey Prep (Apr 9, 2016)

Outside of Asia, GS are known only to WISers. The average Joe Blow has never heard of them and if they do look at one all they 
see is a Seiko. That is what hurts resale. You are selling to WISers only. What other reason would there be for such a quality product to depreciate as much?

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## coffeewatch (Sep 20, 2016)

Even though I understand the Lexus vs Toyota comparison as discussed here, I find the honesty in GS branding to be refreshing. I realize I am in a small minority of consumers in the USA but I like that they are so transparent about the parent company. I would not think less of Lexus if it were called the Grand Toyota, but I can understand why many people would, especially those in USA were it is more often that quality items are outsourced or re-engineered to have less quality but still take the name of the original high quality product. Whether it is clothing, tools, etc. So it is less believable to the average Joe that a company would go in the opposite direction and offer a higher quality item under the same product umbrella. Maybe this is a holdover of the old Chevy < GM < Cadillac or Ford < Mercury < Lincoln car comparisons days (not sure what I just wrote about cars is totally accurate). 

I think the resale value is more about the phenomenon as described by Archie Luxury, that any brand which is not Rolex, PP, or a few others has a steep hill to climb, rather than having a secondary brand. But assuming Seiko is committed, the substance and quality behind GS should help it maintain value over the long haul.


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## alexwins (Feb 18, 2017)

Dtsitouris said:


> I am a seiko nut. And own a few Grand Seikos. Have sold a few others. The current collection is:
> 
> SBGC003
> SBDX065
> ...


What do you want to sell and how much do you want?


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## shtora (Jan 11, 2009)

I think there is more to be added to this case.
Yes, the resale value of GS models is probably worse than Rolex, if purchased new.

This could be due to the fact that SEIKO aims the watch to people who would like to have 1 exceptional watch for all situations and for life.

Another reason could be the lack of spares for old/vintage watches. This has stopped me from buying two higher end SEIKOs in the past (a 4502 KS and a 5626 certified chronometer). While an Omega Geneve which I had several years ago came to me from the service centre in close-to-new condition, because all types of spares (movement parts, crystal, hands, crown, gaskets, etc.) were available. I also tried to replace the dial of a SBGF017 (relatively modern model) with a black one, but SEIKO would not sell it. On the other hand, an Omega AD was ready to sell me a dial for a discontinued quartz De Ville Prestige. From this point of view, brands like Rolex and Omega provide long term support, including spares availability, thus a watch could easily be restored to as-new condition.

And third - the brand. Yes, there are markets, where the brand name is more important than the product quality. However, I think that SEIKO's idea of GS is different. Sure, it is a corporation, so the point is one - profit. But, not directly from GS. My feeling is that the idea of Grand Seiko is to be exactly what the name tells - the best of SEIKO (as The Citizen is the best Citizen). Not to compete directly with the famous traditional luxury brands, but to educate the market on what SEIKO is capable of, to elevate the brand in general. I don't like the car analogy, but this is something like participating in Le Mans or F1. This way making even the cheaper models more appealing (e.g. PMGSs ;-)).


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## EDL77 (Sep 2, 2016)

Most all watches have bad resale..even Rolex..in PM and..the Cellini line..


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## JoeOBrien (Aug 2, 2013)

shtora said:


> My feeling is that the idea of Grand Seiko is to be exactly what the name tells - the best of SEIKO (as The Citizen is the best Citizen). Not to compete directly with the famous traditional luxury brands, but to educate the market on what SEIKO is capable of, to elevate the brand in general.


Well they're not doing a very good job of it, are they? Their marketing is almost non-existent. As mentioned already in this thread, most people have never heard of GS. If Seiko did act a bit more like they were trying to compete with the well-known brands, awareness of their product would be higher and they might sell more watches.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

JoeOBrien said:


> Well they're not doing a very good job of it, are they? Their marketing is almost non-existent. As mentioned already in this thread, most people have never heard of GS. If Seiko did act a bit more like they were trying to compete with the well-known brands, awareness of their product would be higher and they might sell more watches.


But the true fact of the matter is that Seiko doesn't want nor do they need to. Besides, their production numbers are no where near those of the popular Swiss luxury watch brands, and as long as they keep selling out of stock, they are perfectly content to leave things the way they are. Don't forget GS is mainly tailored for the Japanese market where they are already immensely popular.


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

A couple thoughts based on my experience:


In general, nearly ALL luxury time pieces suffer substantial depreciation by the market.
Brands that more tightly control their retail pricing and or distribution suffer less.
The "Seiko" brand discussion matters more in my opinion as influencing popularity and compeitive positioning between GS and mainstream Swiss luxury brands such as Swatch Group's OMEGA and ROLEX (Lexus vs. BMW, Mercedes etc.)


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

T1meout said:


> But the true fact of the matter is that Seiko doesn't want nor do they need to. Besides, their production numbers are no where near those of the popular Swiss luxury watch brands, and as long as they keep selling out of stock, they are perfectly content to leave things the way they are. Don't forget GS is mainly tailored for the Japanese market where they are already immensely popular.


Actually, not quite. I see a lot more Rolex than GS everytime I'm in Japan...like A LOT MORE.

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## kamonjj (Dec 26, 2012)

I have received a 20% discount off of msrp at an AD for a new GS diver. Still lost significantly more on resale.

Personally, I think it's a number of reasons. 

1. They have the seiko name and I have seen many WIS refuse them because of that reason alone. Not saying I agree at all but many threads have expressed that sentiment.

2. Watch sales have been declining significantly over the last 3 years.

3. A lot of them are readily available used. 

4. Nothing holds their value like the limited edition models which are usually sold for significantly more than msrp. However, I feel that trend is going to change. 


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

mui.richard said:


> Actually, not quite. I see a lot more Rolex than GS everytime I'm in Japan...like A LOT MORE.
> 
> Sent from my F8132 using Tapatalk


I didn't write they were the most popular, but rather that they are well known in Japan. Like I said, Rolex produce 30X the volume of watches annually that GS do. No wonder you see a lot more of them, everywhere.


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

T1meout said:


> I didn't write they were the most popular, but rather that they are well known in Japan. Like I said, Rolex produce 30X the volume of watches annually that GS do. No wonder you see a lot more of them, everywhere.


I guess the way you put it misled me then...

"Don't forget GS is mainly tailored for the Japanese market where they are already immensely popular"

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## PJ S (Apr 29, 2013)

T1meout said:


> I didn't write they were the most popular, but rather that they are well known in Japan. Like I said, Rolex produce 30X the volume of watches annually that GS do. No wonder you see a lot more of them, everywhere.


And the rest - probably nearer to 50 times, IME.



mui.richard said:


> I guess the way you put it misled me then...
> 
> "Don't forget GS is mainly tailored for the Japanese market where they are already immensely popular"


A significant portion of the (estimated) 15K mechanical Grand Seikos (inc SD) are sold in the local domestic region, leaving only a scant few by comparison for the official export markets - US, Canada, Australia, EU, Egypt, etc.


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

Japans's population stand at over 126 million. Let's say 1/20 of those are of appropriate age for a watch purchase, that's 6.3 million people easy.

15k pieces for 6.3 million the watch buying market is hardly "immensely popular".

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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

I think we sometimes assume a bit much on the Japanese front. In Japan GS is known of and recognized as a high quality and classy watch. They are certainly respectable and there are certainly some diehard GS fans there, but they aren't generally favored over or even particularly competitive with the (perceived) higher cachet and style of Rolex and Omega, etc. What you can glean from this is that Grand Seiko is not exotic to the Japanese, and the Japanese public are no different from the normal masses who aren't WIS. They love European made brands. Grand Seiko is actually exotic to those now discovering it outside of Japan. I believe we foreign connoisseurs clamor over the GS finishing, detailing, construction, and quality considerably more than what the normal appreciation of the brand is in Japan. Part of that is the product's exotic nature, which naturally is not a characteristic that's present to the Japanese consumers.


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## jupiter6 (Jan 8, 2015)

T1meout said:


> . Don't forget GS is mainly tailored for the Japanese market where they are already immensely popular.


My wife is Japanese, and she, nor her friends or any of her family own a GS. Most vaguely recall that a GS is a nice watch, then put on their Daniel Wellingtons and G Shocks, which are actually popular in Japan.

I go to Japan on a regular basis, and have seen maybe 3. They are NOT immensely popular.


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## CharlieG (Apr 11, 2016)

Looking at what these tend to sell for, what exactly do you consider "horrible resale"? Outside of the absolutely stupid secondary market for Rolexes, and your ultra high end brands like PP, AP, etc, what luxury watch doesn't fall off a cliff on the used market? Especially in the case of the GS line, it's a niche watch, and they aren't that hard to acquire any more with the grey market dealers, ebay, etc. They're nice, but they don't have a rabid following that drives the prices up.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

jupiter6 said:


> My wife is Japanese, and she, nor her friends or any of her family own a GS. Most vaguely recall that a GS is a nice watch, then put on their Daniel Wellingtons and G Shocks, which are actually popular in Japan.
> 
> I go to Japan on a regular basis, and have seen maybe 3. They are NOT immensely popular.


Popular doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who can afford one, actually owns a GS. Those are two totally different things. I'm referring to brand awareness.

I've never encountered someone who owns a Patek Philippe. Therefore I must conclude that Patek mustn't be selling any watches. See what I did there? I'd care to wager that 3/4 of the Swiss population has never heard op Patek Philippe to begin with. My point being a single observation doesn't count for much.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

mui.richard said:


> Japans's population stand at over 126 million. Let's say 1/20 of those are of appropriate age for a watch purchase, that's 6.3 million people easy.
> 
> 15k pieces for 6.3 million the watch buying market is hardly "immensely popular".
> 
> Sent from my F8132 using Tapatalk


Immensely popular doesn't equate to watch sales, but rather to notoriety and brand awareness. Someone suggested that GS should invest more in marketing. My point being, what's the point of increasing expenditure on marketing if sales are fine and the company doesn't intend to increase production anyway?


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## RMA (Oct 16, 2013)

From my understanding the GS's that really hold their value is any of the Spring Drive (Snowflake etc) and Hi Beats along with their L.E. models. At least that was mentioned to me by a large GS dealer that is.


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## jupiter6 (Jan 8, 2015)

T1meout said:


> Popular doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who can afford one, actually owns a GS. Those are two totally different things. I'm referring to brand awareness.
> 
> I've never encountered someone who owns a Patek Philippe. Therefore I must conclude that Patek mustn't be selling any watches. See what I did there? I'd care to wager that 3/4 of the Swiss population has never heard op Patek Philippe to begin with. My point being a single observation doesn't count for much.


They still aren't immensely popular then. As I said, some people have a vague notion of a very nice Seiko. How do vague notions with zero intention of ever buying said item affect resale value? See what I did there?

Btw, where did you read they are immensely popular? The internet? It must be true then.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

jupiter6 said:


> They still aren't immensely popular then. As I said, some people have a vague notion of a very nice Seiko. How do vague notions with zero intention of ever buying said item affect resale value? See what I did there?
> 
> Btw, where did you read they are immensely popular? The internet? It must be true then.


"Some people" or rather the people you know doesn't represent a statistically significant part of the Japanese population on which conclusions can be based. Just because you've not met anyone doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because I've never met someone who owns a Patek doesn't mean there aren't plenty around. I replied to your comment which had nothing to do with resale value. Like I said. The sheer number of watches annually produced by Rolex means that for every GS owner you're likely to encounter in Japan there are tens, perhaps even hundreds of Rolex owners. Still, this doesn't mean that GS isn't popular in Japan. GS ventured onto foreign markets less than a decade ago. If they aren't popular in Japan, care to explain who's been buying them for the past 50 years?
Nah, we all know everything on The Internet is fake news!


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

Supplyemand. GS makes a fantastic watch, but the number of people in the United States willing to pay that much "for a Seiko" is probably in the hundreds. 


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## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

Just buy used


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

T1meout said:


> Like I said. The sheer number of watches annually produced by Rolex means that for every GS owner you're likely to encounter in Japan there are tens, perhaps even hundreds of Rolex owners.


Why did you think Rolex makes so many watches a year? To fill stock? Demand supply is a two way street. Only when you have such a demand for them would they make that many watches.

And while I think we all agree that GS makes some mighty fine watches for that price point, they are far from "immencely popular", not even close.

And to be blunt your argument that GS is selling in a number they are comfortable with and wouldn't want to sell more is, for lack of a better word, ridiculous. It's not a product line meant to be a showcase...they have Credor for that. And the fact that we're starting to see TVC spots here in Hong Kong is proof that they want to drive up brand awareness and in turn sales. Why else would a company be spending money on marketing if that don't want to drive sales as you claim? Why go through all the trouble and associated costs setting up boutiques in the US?

Ball's in your court. 

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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

mui.richard said:


> Why did you think Rolex makes so many watches a year? To fill stock? Demand supply is a two way street. Only when you have such a demand for them would they make that many watches.
> 
> And while I think we all agree that GS makes some mighty fine watches for that price point, they are far from "immencely popular", not even close.
> 
> ...


Well actually it was confirmed by the CEO or some high Seiko official in a Q&A interview about Seiko I read a while ago. Ridiculously sounding or not, that is exactly the case. Their primary goal isn't unbridled expansion over night, but rather to do it at their own controlled pace. Credor is owned by Seiko corporation, but it doesn't carry the Seiko name, whereas GS is the top of the line Seiko has to offer.

I never said they shouldn't market GS, but there is no use in spending a disproportionate amount on marketing while only producing a few tens of thousands of watches. Granted venturing abroad requires some marketing investment, but not to the likes of Rolex.

Simple, Boutiques give companies greater control over their product and prices, and given the stigma the brand suffers abroad, it was very smart of them to do so.

So, you keep arguing that GS isn't immensely popular in Japan. Then please explain to me, before venturing abroad, to whom have they been selling watches over the past 50 years?

Let me rephrase my statement. For a niche product, Grand Seiko is immensely popular amongst their Japanese target market.

Happy now?


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

T1meout said:


> Well actually it was confirmed by the CEO or some high Seiko official in a Q&A interview about Seiko I read a while ago. Ridiculously sounding or not, that is exactly the case. Their primary goal isn't unbridled expansion over night, but rather to do it at their own controlled pace.


Judging by their popularity they are doing a fine job in that, they're still relatively unknown in the watch market and wouldn't have to worry about expansion in a while.



T1meout said:


> Credor is owned by Seiko corporation, but it doesn't carry the Seiko name, whereas GS is the top of the line Seiko has to offer.


Po-tae-to po-tar-to. They may have taken "Seiko" off the dial trying to shake off that Seiko image in recent years, it doesn't change what it is, a tech/workmanship showcase for Seiko watchmaking.







































T1meout said:


> Simple, Boutiques give companies greater control over their product and prices, and given the stigma the brand suffers abroad, it was very smart of them to do so.


That's just wrong. How is having a few boutique going to give them control on prices? Unless they are EXCLUSIVELY sold at boutiques only, that's never gonna happen.



T1meout said:


> So, you keep arguing that GS isn't immensely popular in Japan. Then please explain to me, before venturing abroad, to whom have they been selling watches over the past 50 years?


Simple. How many GS did they make in the last 50 years? How many watches were sold in Japan in that same 50 years? If they even manage to have 1% market share I'd say they are"popular".

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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

Given the volume of watches GS produce, their market share must be much less than 1%. But that's not the point. The point is creating brand awareness and notoriety amongst *their target market*. I didn't imply they had total control on sales, but to a certain extent boutiques certainly provides them with more leverage and greater control, like reserving certain exclusive models for sale through their boutique chain only and combating discounting. You may not think highly of the brand, but since venturing abroad annual sales figures have shown double digit growth. That doesn't seem like they don't know what they're doing. As Credor is Seiko corporation's showcase brand for hauthorology, so is GS their showcase brand for mid tier luxury watches aswell.


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## Pencey Prep (Apr 9, 2016)

Maybe Seiko is using GS to push up their bread and butter line of Seikos? Sometimes companies have luxury lines just to raise their own credibility. I read somewhere that the Bugatti Veyron sold for about 2M but actually cost VW 6 M to make. But they wore the loss for the prestige it would bestow on the company. Anyway just my thoughts. BTW I would love to put a GS on my wrist if the funds were available. A Quartz would do nicely.

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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

T1meout said:


> Given the volume of watches GS produce, their market share must be much less than 1%. But that's not the point. The point is creating brand awareness and notoriety amongst *their target market*. I didn't imply they had total control on sales, but to a certain extent boutiques certainly provides them with more leverage and greater control, like reserving certain exclusive models for sale through their boutique chain only and combating discounting. You may not think highly of the brand, but since venturing abroad annual sales figures have shown double digit growth. That doesn't seem like they don't know what they're doing. As Credor is Seiko corporation's showcase brand for hauthorology, so is GS their showcase brand for mid tier luxury watches aswell.


Quite the contrary, I love my GS SBGR051....it is easily the best made watch in my little collection. In terms of workmanship it's easily the best bang for the buck there is.










But let's face it, calling it immensely popular in whatever market is kidding yourself. My Japanese friends would rather get a pre-owned Rolex than to get a brand new GS that goes for similar money. So while some of us appreciate the GS collection for what it is, some simply can't get past the Seiko insignia. And that's brings us back to why the resale hurt the way it is, there's not enough demand for them.

BTW, I used to study statistics back in my college days...double digit growth is nothing more than a fancy way of saying that sales went up from selling 9 pieces to 15...hardly worth bragging about.

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## Tseg (Mar 29, 2014)

Marketing is all about "how does it make you feel." Many Swiss watch makers have figured how to communicate on emotional terms with their target segment. Grand Seiko's marketing department is run as if they were all engineers... very big on speaking to product specs, performance, design artistry, craftsmanship, etc... all very literal interpretations related to the production of a watch. This resonates with some watch geeks but not a lot of others.

Deny as much as you will, but a luxury watch should at some point provide some type of aspirational emotional feeling in the prospective watch buyer. Grand Seiko does stay very much on message about craftsmanship, which I think resonates very well with some Japanese. Grand Seiko marketing never tries to convey feelings of winning, success, personal achievement, etc... which are strong emotional actuators in Western culture. As a result, the segment Grand Seiko target is quite narrow, which limits demand which limits resale value on a Global stage.


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

Tseg said:


> Grand Seiko marketing never tries to convey feelings of winning, success, personal achievement, etc... which are strong emotional actuators in Western culture.


Actually that's not exactly true





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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

Just buy it used if the resale value is a concern.


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## jah (Mar 26, 2012)

I've been trying to sell one for a week or so with no luck. It's all good!


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## coffeewatch (Sep 20, 2016)

jah said:


> I've been trying to sell one for a week or so with no luck. It's all good!


I suspect most watches take a while to sale, since the f29 for-sale forum is so active it is hard to keep up with what is posted. I think it works against the causal shopper who is not looking for a specific watch.

Edit: I just found yours buried on page 19. (Nice watch, though I am not looking for that particular style now.)


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## kudalaut888 (Feb 13, 2015)

Put my nce Credor in this room  peace



mui.richard said:


> Judging by their popularity they are doing a fine job in that, they're still relatively unknown in the watch market and wouldn't have to worry about expansion in a while.
> 
> Po-tae-to po-tar-to. They may have taken "Seiko" off the dial trying to shake off that Seiko image in recent years, it doesn't change what it is, a tech/workmanship showcase for Seiko watchmaking.
> 
> ...


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## kudalaut888 (Feb 13, 2015)

My nice credor, already overhaul, keeping +1 per day now


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

mui.richard said:


> Actually that's not exactly true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love that commercial. Seems a bit of a rarity, although we don't have access to every spot that GS puts out. Appeals to the emotions, though not really touting GS as a high class prestige or achievement piece. The character in the story bought it when he was 23, a humble beginning. The GS simply represents a cherished quality dependable companion, serving him well through a very fulfilling even if ordinary life. Really cool spot.


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## jrsdad (Apr 21, 2010)

I recently wore my 031 on vacation in St Thomas. With one exception, all salesmen were clueless as to what differentiates a Grand Seiko from Seiko.


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Just curious, is there some kind of significance about St Thomas.... Virgin Islands, I assume? Are they like a luxury watch retail mecca? I just happened to be watching YouTuber "irixguy" talk about his "JJ lakoh" (JLC) that he bought in the Virgin Islands and he was wearing an Ajanta Jewelers St Thomas shirt. Weird Deja vu about a place I've never actually heard of, I had to come back here and ask. 

What's the best store there? In any case obviously none sell GS.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

bluedialer said:


> Just curious, is there some kind of significance about St Thomas.... Virgin Islands, I assume? Are they like a luxury watch retail mecca? I just happened to be watching YouTuber "irixguy" talk about his "JJ lakoh" (JLC) that he bought in the Virgin Islands and he was wearing an Ajanta Jewelers St Thomas shirt. Weird Deja vu about a place I've never actually heard of, I had to come back here and ask.
> 
> What's the best store there? In any case obviously none sell GS.


Not a watch Mecca perse, they are simply a tax free shopping paradise. AH Riise has a great selection of brands. I bought there my Rolex GMT for a price even DavisSW couldn't match.

@jrsdad
It doesn't surprise me they never heard of Grand Seiko, given Grand Seiko have no dealership in the Caribbean.


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## Pencey Prep (Apr 9, 2016)

bluedialer said:


> I love that commercial. Seems a bit of a rarity, although we don't have access to every spot that GS puts out. Appeals to the emotions, though not really touting GS as a high class prestige or achievement piece. The character in the story bought it when he was 23, a humble beginning. The GS simply represents a cherished quality dependable companion, serving him well through a very fulfilling even if ordinary life. Really cool spot.


It reminds me of the great Japanese director Ozu who made beautiful and poetic movies about ordinary people living ordinary lives.

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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

I recently purchased a pre-own Grand Seiko at a huge discount, I also think that Grand Seiko doesn't hold its price. In my opinion, it could be due to the following:
A. Marketing. The marketing for Grand Seiko seems to concentrate only in their domestic market, the rest of the world, the marketing is pathetic...
B. Price. The price of Grand Seiko is significantly cheaper in Japan than anywhere else in the world. On the contrary, you don't buy Rolex in Switzerland, because it is cheaper elsewhere. Seiko needs to learn the art of price regulation for the world wide market.....
C. After sales service. The after sales service for Grand Seiko leaves much to be improved....

Despite all these, I got a feeling that if Seiko gets their act right, this quality product will appreciate over time.


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## 3demon (May 29, 2012)

Agreed with skyWalker on the Marketing part. It's amazing how effective silly campaigns like Tag's "Don't crack under pressure" are in terms of people's perceptions of value. Put a celebrity next to a watch and suddenly it raises its cache. Probably why Tag spends multi millions doing that. Personally, I don't like that kind of marketing, but for the average watch buyers it seems to be effective. Seiko would probably do well if they started to do that.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

3demon said:


> Agreed with skyWalker on the Marketing part. It's amazing how effective silly campaigns like Tag's "Don't crack under pressure" are in terms of people's perceptions of value. Put a celebrity next to a watch and suddenly it raises its cache. Probably why Tag spends multi millions doing that. Personally, I don't like that kind of marketing, but for the average watch buyers it seems to be effective. Seiko would probably do well if they started to do that.


I totally disagree. That type of marketing is more likely to cheapen the brand. Tag may be notorious, but not necessarily in a positive way, and their sales figures show it.


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## ImprezaMan (Jul 12, 2016)

This is a very interesting topic............ A lot of points to noted... But just to my little knowledge of watches and compare with Automobile (easily the 2 most bragging item in the men's world) Just saying as an example.

A successful grown men will thends to drive or own a few Mercedes, BMW or maybe Audi, even cadillac for Americans.... Not Lexus. No matter how great and reliable their model is nor the performance (LF-A) per say. Because they know deep inside their heart, they are not looking for reliability of German cars but the feeling the of success if owning one. Like who would brag their top of the line lexus.... I just don't see that at functions and parties....

Average joe like me knows lexus is good and reliable. and that's the best of Japanese engineering..... but people don't really need that.... same goes with Grand Seiko. There were a few times that I actually wanted to buy one but ending up held back because there are always something I want more first..... 

So I guess it is not the supply or demand with this particular brand. It is how people judge and weighted a Luxury Japanese brand or just go straight to Swiss Luxury. WIS are different, a lot of people will sell of their Swiss Luxury and acquire a Grand Seiko because WIS has been through the need of owning Swiss Luxury and find Japanese Luxury are actually happier to own....

Just my 2 cents... cheers


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## Tseg (Mar 29, 2014)

Tseg said:


> Grand Seiko marketing never tries to convey feelings of winning, success, personal achievement, etc... which are strong emotional actuators in Western culture.





mui.richard said:


> Actually that's not exactly true
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't read Japanese, but my take on the video was the key message is that a GS is built for a lifetime, or can grow old with you. Certainly it was trying to emote "heart-warming" feelings, but I would be challenged to say the video was aspirational.


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## Castello Dunhill (Aug 22, 2015)

Tseg said:


> I can't read Japanese, but my take on the video was the key message is that a GS is built for a lifetime, or can grow old with you. Certainly it was trying to emote "heart-warming" feelings, but I would be challenged to say the video was aspirational.


There is some loose translations in the comments; "when I entered this company, I bought this watch"

Very good video. In the western world this type of purchase is usually assigned to Rolex. Im happy to see that GS is making a stand


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## jah (Mar 26, 2012)

I've had my GS for sale for over 3 weeks, with just a few offers, but mainly trade offers. It's full kit purchased brand new from a GS AD in January. Just because I haven't been able to move it doesn't deter me from the brand, that's just the nature of the beast!


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## MisterV (Nov 30, 2016)

There don't seem to be that many GS Spring Drive models offered second hand (obviously not talking about the Japanese auctions, probably a lot more there). Is the production that little? I wonder how many they make/sell per year, it must be at least a couple thousand?


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## tiki5698 (Jul 6, 2016)

i don't get why people always single out Grand Seiko for resale value, yes it's not that good but if you want a watch with good resale buy a Rolex or Patek. There are tons of brands with terrible resale.

Look at the Omega SMPc for example, $4400 MSRP, grey market $2700,, used prob around $2200.

How about zenith, Girard perregaux, Ulysse Nardin, and Jaeger lecoultre? The used prices on these are WAY lower than MSRP/grey market.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

Can someone put some numbers behind poor resale? I gave looked at a few and honestly the used prices are hardly great given the discounts ads can give. My 2-3 year old le is going used for about 750 under my purchase price, now mine wouldnt as i abuse my watches, but that doesnt seem like much of a drop off at all.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

DustinS said:


> Can someone put some numbers behind poor resale? I gave looked at a few and honestly the used prices are hardly great given the discounts ads can give. My 2-3 year old le is going used for about 750 under my purchase price, now mine wouldnt as i abuse my watches, but that doesnt seem like much of a drop off at all.


Did it sell for 750 below what you paid for yours, or is it being offered at that amount? Sellers won't necessarily get the amount they're asking for. Value is determined by the market. Not the seller. Then again the watch in question may retain value well because it's a popular limited edition.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

T1meout said:


> Did it sell for 750 below what you paid for yours, or is being offered at that amount? Sellers won't necessarily get the amount they're asking for. It's the market determines value. Not the seller. Then again the watch in question may retain value well because it's a popular limited edition.


Well, my watch isnt the point of this. It is what is bad resale?

If a snow flake is used for say 3500 that seems like a reasonable price given nee it should go under 5k with a reasonable discount.


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## paskinner (Dec 27, 2015)

Buy the watch you really love keep it. Then depreciation doesn't matter.


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

DustinS said:


> Well, my watch isnt the point of this. It is what is bad resale?
> 
> If a snow flake is used for say 3500 that seems like a reasonable price given nee it should go under 5k with a reasonable discount.


Well it's all relative. Here in the EU the snowflake costs more than 5k. So 3,5k resale value would be quite the depreciation.

My previous point being that an asking price doesn't say much about the true resale value of a watch. For that you'd need to look at what price the watch actually sold for.


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## DustinS (Nov 3, 2013)

T1meout said:


> Well it's all relative. Here in the EU the snowflake costs more than 5k. So 3,5k resale value would be quite the depreciation.
> 
> My previous point being that an asking price doesn't say much about the true resale value of a watch. For that you'd need to look at what price the watch actually sold for.


That is fine, but you also need the purchase price which is harder to find given the low production and the ad discounts.

but yes, i used ebay final prices. but even that is bad as there are very very few of any given model being sold.


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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

Just read about the new branding effort of redesigning the Grand Seiko. 

I'm curious how this would affect the resale value of the current and past models......


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

skyWalker said:


> Just read about the new branding effort of redesigning the Grand Seiko.
> 
> I'm curious how this would affect the resale value of the current and past models......


Your guess would be as good as any of us.


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## sigma089 (Jul 5, 2011)

If anything I guess the "old" models - the limited editions at least - will start to command a slight premium in resale as they are a testament to our appreciation of Grand Seiko's quality "before it was cool"...


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## Tomatoes11 (Feb 17, 2015)

I lost more on my Rolex Explorer 2016 and My Oyster Perpetual 39mm vs my SBGH001. And my SBGH001 only lost me $400 more than my no date Sub.

Of course, I think the weak Canadian dollar helped me nullify some of that hit after factoring in the exchange rate.

But still, it's not that bad if you have a sought after model and be patient with the sale. It won't go instantly like a Rolex but it's not terrible at all.


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## MLJinAK (Feb 14, 2015)

I'm going to quote myself here:



MLJinAK said:


> Caution: If you want high resale values, what does that mean? Do you want AD's to stop giving discounts on new models?
> *Or for GS to raise prices to Rolex levels so we can squeak out another $500 when we flip?*
> 
> Please enjoy the ability to buy new and used GS's at a good price while you can. I have a feeling it's only a matter of time before "the market" accepts Japanese watches on the same level as Swiss.


Boom - GS went independent and is raising prices to Rolex levels. They're going to get there in a couple years.

Buy up all the "cheap" new and used GS's while you can....


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

MLJinAK said:


> ...They're going to get there in a couple years...


A couple years? Wishful thinking to say the least, but hey a guy can dream right?

Sent from my F8132 using Tapatalk


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## MLJinAK (Feb 14, 2015)

mui.richard said:


> A couple years? Wishful thinking to say the least, but hey a guy can dream right?
> 
> Sent from my F8132 using Tapatalk


?? I was talking about their prices being Rolex levels in a couple years. It's not something I'm wishing or dreaming for.


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## toychaser (Jan 24, 2007)

I think there is brand perception issue in some markets given the wide range of model/s pricing. It's not considered a high end watches by all compared to other brands.


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## mui.richard (Aug 13, 2014)

MLJinAK said:


> ?? I was talking about their prices being Rolex levels in a couple years. It's not something I'm wishing or dreaming for.


Sorry I thought you're refereeing to their resale value, which is what this thread is about...my bad

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## cmenscher (Mar 31, 2016)

I have heard from a couple of AD's that they are now deep discounting the "old style" GS's with SEIKO branding to make room for the new style. So if you think resale was tough before...


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## Tseg (Mar 29, 2014)

cmenscher said:


> I have heard from a couple of AD's that they are now deep discounting the "old style" GS's with SEIKO branding to make room for the new style. So if you think resale was tough before...


This has been proven to be a myth... GS has always been discounted... they tell you "now" to make it sound like discounting is a new thing and is limited time only so you hop on your purchase.


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## wannawatch (May 8, 2013)

GS is simply not as widely recognized as a high end watch by say 90% of first time luxury watch buyers. If it wasn't for these forums I myself would never even give them a second thought. I do agree several brands suffer the exact same problem and it is of course not indicative of quality or even value.

When a person passes the bar exam and gets that first job they go out to buy their first look at me watch. Rolex is very hard to pass up as it covers just about every base from quality to brand recognition. GS watch buyers usually have several watches and have done some comparison shopping and are usually buy-in for the right reasons to a fellow watch collector. I can't see any first time watch buyer without knowing about these forums choosing between a GS and say a Datejust and choosing the GS. 

Simple math dictates less buyers equal lower prices to mov the watch. Sellers should hold out but that never happens look at classifieds with daily price cuts to chase the next best thing.


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## L84AD8 (Apr 15, 2016)

wannawatch said:


> GS is simply not as widely recognized as a high end watch by say 90% of first time luxury watch buyers. If it wasn't for these forums I myself would never even give them a second thought. I do agree several brands suffer the exact same problem and it is of course not indicative of quality or even value.
> 
> When a person passes the bar exam and gets that first job they go out to buy their first look at me watch. Rolex is very hard to pass up as it covers just about every base from quality to brand recognition. GS watch buyers usually have several watches and have done some comparison shopping and are usually buy-in for the right reasons to a fellow watch collector. I can't see any first time watch buyer without knowing about these forums choosing between a GS and say a Datejust and choosing the GS.
> 
> Simple math dictates less buyers equal lower prices to mov the watch. Sellers should hold out but that never happens look at classifieds with daily price cuts to chase the next best thing.


Well said |>, and that is the reality for GS, nothing to do with quality, craftsmanship, movement, etc.. If I understand correctly is also the reason why the recent big move to separate GS from Seiko brand in order to "lift" the GS brand image.. hopefully this is a successful move, so those with the original Seiko-Grand Seiko's become "desirable vintage" and benefits in resale, like vintage Rolex's.. :roll: (I don't intend to sell my GS, so this is of no concern to me)


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## bmdaia (Aug 14, 2015)

Agree, GS is virtually unknown outside of Asia. Thus GS resale is a WIS enclave of astronomically shrewd, informed buyers.


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## uplockjock (Nov 29, 2016)

bmdaia said:


> Agree, GS is virtually unknown outside of Asia. Thus GS resale is a WIS enclave of astronomically shrewd, informed buyers.


I tend to agree with you.


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## gatormac (Apr 22, 2014)

wannawatch said:


> Simple math dictates less buyers equal lower prices to mov the watch. Sellers should hold out but that never happens look at classifieds with daily price cuts to chase the next best thing.


Actually simply math dictates that it is relative- there are less buyers of GS, but there equally less sellers. It is a smaller market. I have gone into this before, and I can pull up online used market sales all day to prove it- GS is similar to the Swiss market as a whole, no better or worse. You do have to be more patient, so yeah, you get people who panic when they can't sell it in a week, but for the most part simply looking at the online sales and compare to the actual going prices for a new GS. Keep in mind that the prices usually quoted on online sites are not the real gong rate offered by dealers. Everyone wants to compare to Rolex, but they are the best in resale. Compare to all the other Swiss makers and you will see GS does ok. Even with Rolex, if you buy new and then go to sell, you are gong to lose a lot of money.

I have bought 3 GS models and I have seen each of them go on the used market for around 20% less than new prices. That is actually good compared to the Swiss market. Nothing horrible about that.

I think where you would have the higher potential to get deeply burned on GS resale is with some of the limited editions that are priced much higher and in some cases too similar to a regular production model. On the other hand, some of those LE grand Seikos that aren't priced too badly, are unique and highly desirable, then resale can be as good or even better than a standard Rolex. Those LEs will sell out fast when new, as a good sign for good resale value, even 100% resale.

If resale is your concern, then always buy used, but that goes for Swiss and German watches too.


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## gatormac (Apr 22, 2014)

I will also add that the more unusual, and the more high end, then the more likely for something to be difficult to sell. Buy a 500k Vacheron Constantin with multiple complications, or one of those amazing and extremely expensive Credor watches, then I'm guessing you are not going to have a quick and easy time selling it and will lose a lot of money. Of course those things are of the highest quality and aren't for people who care about resale.


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## balzebub (May 30, 2010)

Just not popular outside of the WIS community and even within the WIS community, only a small percentage appreciate GS and are willing to spend on them, most WIS will still swing for the Swiss and German brands at that price. 

So GS are hard to sell and buyers will have the ability to depress the prices. 

Conclusion, GS had better be a keeper or be prepared to bleed... 

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## LodeRunner (Feb 17, 2013)

balzebub said:


> Just not popular outside of the WIS community and even within the WIS community, only a small percentage appreciate GS and are willing to spend on them, most WIS will still swing for the Swiss and German brands at that price.
> 
> So GS are hard to sell and buyers will have the ability to depress the prices.
> 
> ...


You cannot base the resale performance on the MSRP of GS units. Unlike Omega, Rolex, IWC, etc., there is a lot more price variability with Grand Seiko models. There's obviously quite a bit of profit margin on a Grand Seiko unit, as I've seen legitimate/authorized dealers sell brand new GS pieces for several hundred, or even thousands, less than the prices others are charging for the same piece. I've also seen people list used GS models for sale on the forums for just a few hundred less than you can buy them, new, from places like SeiyaJapan, probably because the owner overpaid. The other problem, unfortunately, is that GS has a branding problem. People see that Seiko logo on the dial and, unless they know watches, think it's a $300 watch. Your average person is likely to think a cheap Tissot or a Victorinox is more prestigious because it's "Swiss Made." So the result is that a lot of avenues for selling the watch, like second hand jewelry shops, consignment brokers, eBay buyers, etc., don't want to touch GS. So you combine both of these factors, heavy price variability, low brand recognition, and limited potential market, and you do end up with poor resale performance.


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## gatormac (Apr 22, 2014)

Mark.W said:


> Y...as I've seen legitimate/authorized dealers sell brand new GS pieces for several hundred, or even thousands, less than the prices others are charging for the same piece. I've also seen people list used GS models for sale on the forums for just a few hundred less than you can buy them, new, from places like SeiyaJapan...


I actually haven't seen a lot of variability when talking to 3-4 ADs in Japan and the US, each time all of their prices were within a hundred dollars range, but much lower than what is posted online. Seiya is not and AD, and his posted prices are way high of what the ADs I have dealt with charge. I would highly recommend checking with multiple ADs to get a good idea of what is the best price you can get. If you try to sell to a second hand shop, you aren't going to do well, but don't lump ebay into that. If you use ebay or the sales forums here, you will get plenty of exposure to the market for people who are interested in GS, and resale is not bad. If you are so clueless as to be trying to sell your GS to a second hand jewelry shop, then indeed you are not going to do well. Frankly, you aren't going to get nearly as much as you could for any Swiss watch if you sell to a second hand jewelry or watch shop. If you sell on these forums or ebay, and take your time, you will do just as well as all of those Swiss brands you mentioned, except Rolex, most of the time.


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## vintage_collectionneurs (Jul 11, 2016)

GS has a fanatical following in Japan but outside Japan I think its fan base is still limited. Having owned a GS I do appreciate the workmanship and quality but every time I chat about it to strangers, the feedback I get most often is that most people can not stomach the price point for a watch which is essentially a Seiko.


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## Chansey (Oct 8, 2016)

Buy to keep, not to sell. Visit a financial planner if you are interested in making an investment.


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## ahdaeeeee (Dec 18, 2014)

Chansey said:


> Buy to keep, not to sell. Visit a financial planner if you are interested in making an investment.


lol


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## Foxman2k (Jun 16, 2014)

Chansey said:


> Buy to keep, not to sell. Visit a financial planner if you are interested in making an investment.


Lol but true.

I've broke even on most of the GS I've sold, but I also buy smart.


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## mrfourcows (Aug 3, 2014)

juicyfruit said:


> GS are sold as combining the best of both worlds with the spring drive and quartz accuracy. This probably doesn't appeal to many buyers. After all any quartz watch is more accurate than any mechanical watch. So it could be *this is really the worst of both worlds*.


HAHAHA:rodekaart


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## zuckermania (Feb 27, 2009)

The only watch I've done better re-selling is Rolex. GS really isn't that bad if you're patient. I also regret selling my hi beat GMT but not my Rolex Exp II.


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## LodeRunner (Feb 17, 2013)

gatormac said:


> I actually haven't seen a lot of variability when talking to 3-4 ADs in Japan and the US, each time all of their prices were within a hundred dollars range, but much lower than what is posted online. Seiya is not and AD, and his posted prices are way high of what the ADs I have dealt with charge. I would highly recommend checking with multiple ADs to get a good idea of what is the best price you can get. If you try to sell to a second hand shop, you aren't going to do well, but don't lump ebay into that. If you use ebay or the sales forums here, you will get plenty of exposure to the market for people who are interested in GS, and resale is not bad. If you are so clueless as to be trying to sell your GS to a second hand jewelry shop, then indeed you are not going to do well. Frankly, you aren't going to get nearly as much as you could for any Swiss watch if you sell to a second hand jewelry or watch shop. If you sell on these forums or ebay, and take your time, you will do just as well as all of those Swiss brands you mentioned, except Rolex, most of the time.


I stand corrected, I thought Seiya Japan was an AD, and their prices on some models seemed much lower. I almost bought an SBGM027 from him, which he had listed brand new for about $3200, full warranty and everything, which was considerably less than every other dealer I could find. I ended up buying the same watch pre-owned from a great seller on the forums, who wore it maybe once, for less. It sat on the forums for about two months and was "bumped" repeatedly, and I estimate he probably took a 35% hit on the sale from what he originally paid.

It's just anecdotal, of course, but I watch GS listings on the forums all the time; with the exception of some of the more famous models like the snowflake, pre-owned GS models really tend to sit on the forums for a very long time before they're sold (sometimes withdrawn and relisted later). Especially the Grand Seiko diver models.


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## Kiwimac99 (May 19, 2017)

I'm on the sidelines of buying a GS, probably in a year or so. Probably a GMT Hi Beat.

I live in New Zealand, where there are no GS dealers at all. I know a good Seiko dealer who can apparently get them as one offs to order which would at least mean someone local to deal with in regards to warranty or service (although doubtless it would have to go back to Japan).

We do not see much discounting from dealers here for decent watch brands: the price is the price - pay it or don't, seems to be the general attitude. You can usually get a bit off for cash, and the easiest discount is to buy tax free by picking up the watch airside as you leave the country on a trip. Provided you are out of the country for at least (I think) 3 days, then you can pay the dealer the price net of the 15% sales tax.

The small market here also means that the second hand market is tiny for things like GS.


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## gatormac (Apr 22, 2014)

Mark.W said:


> I stand corrected, I thought Seiya Japan was an AD, and their prices on some models seemed much lower. I almost bought an SBGM027 from him, which he had listed brand new for about $3200, full warranty and everything, which was considerably less than every other dealer I could find. I ended up buying the same watch pre-owned from a great seller on the forums, who wore it maybe once, for less. It sat on the forums for about two months and was "bumped" repeatedly, and I estimate he probably took a 35% hit on the sale from what he originally paid.
> 
> It's just anecdotal, of course, but I watch GS listings on the forums all the time; with the exception of some of the more famous models like the snowflake, pre-owned GS models really tend to sit on the forums for a very long time before they're sold (sometimes withdrawn and relisted later). Especially the Grand Seiko diver models.


Seiya offered a new SBGM027 for 3200? Coincidentally, I recently bought that model for just a few hundred more than that, including shipping, but 3200 would have been a great deal on that mode, lower than I have heard anywhere else. I would have bought used though, had it been listed anywhere at the time. You see, that's the thing- it cuts both ways. Less buyers but less sellers. If I could have bought used for 15-20% less than new, I would have and I would have had to act quick knowing it might be a while before another one comes up. The market is there, it just takes time. I think your example of the guy waiting 2 months and then taking a 35% probably not atypical, but a 35% hit is not bad for Swiss watches either. Buy a new Swiss watch from an AD, and you can expect to lose around 30% to 50% on resale. Rolex probably more like 20%. The more popular and well known the model, the quicker the sale, but not necessarily better resale value. I took probably 3 months to sell an Omega Railmaster, with little to know bites until suddenly my full asking price was offered (I bought it used). I bought a new Sinn and sold it less than a year later at about a 40% loss after several months of waiting. I bought a new GS from Japan and sold it less than a year later for 0% loss in the UK in only a couple of days after posting online. All anecdotal of course. Each case makes economic sense on both sides when looking at the circumstances and the market. Nobody got ripped off, both parties were happy.

My only point is that GS resale is pretty typical for watches, not the best, but not the worst. Patience is key, especially with something like a GS. If you really care about resale, then buy used. By the way, I love the SBGA027!


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## Tseg (Mar 29, 2014)

Lately I've been testing the 'value' of my GS Hi-Beat GMT for some proposed upgrade trades. More or less all are interested in the GS (which is a lot better response than you get with some other brands offered in trade) and they all seem to value the somewhat worn GS ~35% off (the old) MSRP. Luckily I got my GS fairly discounted when new. The good news/bad news is at what the trades are offering I value my GS much more. Likewise, those watches that my GS was "going up against" at the perceived price point were doing little for me (like Omega Seamaster GMT) relative to the SBGJ001.

I had gone a month without wearing when I sent out my inquiries. Upon receiving responses I went to my watch box and put my GS on my wrist, completely forgetting how this is my most comfortable watch. At that point I valued it even a bit more. Anyway, my exercise was a good reality check that brought me back to why I bought this watch in the first place.


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## DarrinNYC77 (Jul 30, 2016)

yankeexpress said:


> GS is the Audi of the watch world.....drive it off the lot and the value looses X0%.


I couldn't agree more with this analogy. I ALWAYS buy pre-owned cars and watches. Let the first person eat the depreciation! I just bought a 2012 Range Rover Supercharged Autobiography. US$140,000 new; I just bought Certified Pre-Owned, 21,000 miles... $52,000. All it takes is patience to find what you're seeking and wait for the properly motivated seller.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

DarrinNYC77 said:


> I couldn't agree more with this analogy. I ALWAYS buy pre-owned cars and watches. Let the first person eat the depreciation! I just bought a 2012 Range Rover Supercharged Autobiography. US$140,000 new; I just bought Certified Pre-Owned, 21,000 miles... $52,000. All it takes is patience to find what you're seeking and wait for the properly motivated seller.


Economically, I know you are right and it makes a lot of sense.
But to me a watch is a very personal item, and wearing someone else's is like wearing another person's clothing. I just can't be comfortable doing that.
And, I like knowing the scratches and dings are my own, the watch carries my history alone. For me, there's more to it than just the money.
D


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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

whineboy said:


> Economically, I know you are right and it makes a lot of sense.
> But to me a watch is a very personal item, and wearing someone else's is like wearing another person's clothing. I just can't be comfortable doing that.
> And, I like knowing the scratches and dings are my own, the watch carries my history alone. For me, there's more to it than just the money.
> D


I totally agree. Therefore I've never bought pre-owned and most likely never will.


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## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

whineboy said:


> Economically, I know you are right and it makes a lot of sense.
> But to me a watch is a very personal item, and wearing someone else's is like wearing another person's clothing. I just can't be comfortable doing that.
> D


I can understand that you'd feel this way. Most people would reject wearing a perfectly good, clean cardigan sweater theoretically worn by a serial killer, a bias known as contagion heuristic.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contagion_heuristic

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## powerband (Oct 17, 2008)

T1meout said:


> I totally agree. Therefore I've never bought pre-owned and most likely never will.


I've bought plenty of new and preowned watches. Most of the preowned watches were advertised as and shown in pictures to be mint or "LNIB," and I've found that in most cases they're in conditions similar to as those I brought home from an AD.

Not all preowned watches are necessarily scratched and dinged. One has to perform due diligence when buying preowned, and "buy the seller."

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## T1meout (Sep 27, 2013)

powerband said:


> I've bought plenty of new and preowned watches. Most of the preowned watches were advertised as and shown in pictures to be mint or "LNIB," and I've found that in most cases they're in conditions similar to as those I brought home from an AD.
> 
> Not all preowned watches are necessarily scratched and dinged. One has to perform due diligence when buying preowned, and "buy the seller."
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's your prerogative and I respect it. I'm simply to picky.


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## gatormac (Apr 22, 2014)

T1meout said:


> That's your prerogative and I respect it. I'm simply to picky.


I can certainly understand why some people would only buy new watches, especially if your collection is small or you have enough money that you just don't care to ever buy used. However what can be kind of surprising at first is how easy it is for a jeweler or watch maker to clean, brush, and polish a watch into virtually new condition. Regarding GS, it can be tough to find a used watch in the model you want, especially if it is a somewhat rare master shop model or boutique, so sometimes a new watch is the only option (unless you are willing to wait however long it takes).


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## skyWalker (Oct 15, 2006)

I just sold off my Grand Seiko Automatic. I made a loss of about US$730.....


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

whineboy said:


> Economically, I know you are right and it makes a lot of sense.
> But to me a watch is a very personal item, and wearing someone else's is like wearing another person's clothing. I just can't be comfortable doing that.
> And, I like knowing the scratches and dings are my own, the watch carries my history alone. For me, there's more to it than just the money.
> D


Very true I just bought a vintage Mark II and spent 2 hours cleaning the gunk in the bracelet and I can't tel you what came out so yeah I felt pretty disgusted but now that is sterilized it looks spectacularly good.

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## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't get it....I have a beautiful Hi Beat thats been on the sales forum for weeks and I got nothing but low ball offers. One or two offers for about half the retail price. I'm asking a couple grand less than I paid and can't move it. I don't mind keeping it but I'm very surprised nobody made me a reasonable offer yet and starting to think a GS isn't for selling its for keeps. I rather keep it than lose a stupid amount of money on something that is so special. If people can't see how special this watch is...even at AD price than its their loss.


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## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

Hmmmm you got some magic. I don't know what Im doing wrong. Ha


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## dachigga69 (Oct 27, 2016)

And once you clean it, you can pass it off as LINB and maybe even make a profit?!



jmanlay said:


> Very true I just bought a vintage Mark II and spent 2 hours cleaning the gunk in the bracelet and I can't tel you what came out so yeah I felt pretty disgusted but now that is sterilized it looks spectacularly good.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

JPfeuffer said:


> I don't get it....I have a beautiful Hi Beat thats been on the sales forum for weeks and I got nothing but low ball offers. One or two offers for about half the retail price. I'm asking a couple grand less than I paid and can't move it.


I'm not in the market for one, but it's worth pointing out that what you paid is essentially irrelevant.

Goverberg has one with all boxes and papers for $3,950 and they are usually high on price and will negotiate as well.

Recent eBay sold listings show two recent sales that were asking $3,580 and $3,950 that were sold to "Best Offer Accepted" so what they actually went for can only be assumed to be less.

Then there are two more sales that went at auction, one for $2,650 and the other for $2,850 and that one was advertised as NOS.

So, while your final price reduction to $3,500 might seem like rock bottom to you, it doesn't really seem that way to the rest of the market... especially when buyers understand all of the sellers mentioned above have high fixed-costs related to running a retail business and/or sales commissions to eBay, (or both) which you do not.

That doesn't mean every buyer will only agree to buy your watch at a bottom basement bargain price, or that they expect all of the sales costs saved should only accrue to themselves. Many would probably agree to something slightly less than the $2,650 (splitting the commission, so to speak) or they might even be willing to pay somewhat more, especially if they have an innate distrust of eBay (as some folks do).

But, what you paid and/or how much you're loosing from your period of ownership just are not relevant to anyone but you..... and maybe a significant other. 

This is not offered as any commentary on your watch, or GS in general, just a perspective that researching the market would probably provide an answer to the question you posted.

Of course there might be attributes your watch has that none of the others offer, I haven't carefully examined your listing or all of the details of the SBGH001 I researched, so you probably should do so yourself.


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## matthew P (Aug 1, 2013)

Now.... May 2017 , is a particularly bad time to be selling a "seiko" branded GS.
Retail AD's have dumped a lot of "old stock" onto the market at a hefty discount to clear space for all the new GS branded stock that they are preparing to display.

Great time to buy the Seiko branded GS stuff but I'm sure most interested buyers have been feasting on the discounted NIB stock and that just leaves the lowballs looking to pick up a bargain.

I know that even if I was thinking about selling mine id be waiting a year or so for the used GS market to find its new normal.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

dachigga69 said:


> And once you clean it, you can pass it off as LINB and maybe even make a profit?!


Don't know about lnib but it certainly is better minus 47 years of crud.
Some of these bracelets are getting harder to find and good luck getting links if it doesn't fit. Resizing them is a bear as well so in general newer is cleaner simpler but wo the vintage charm

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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

StephenCanale said:


> I'm not in the market for one, but it's worth pointing out that what you paid is essentially irrelevant.
> 
> Goverberg has one with all boxes and papers for $3,950 and they are usually high on price and will negotiate as well.
> 
> ...


I lost 17% on my GS sbgm027 and thought it was about right and you are right what is a max acceptable loss for one is entirely irrelevant to what the market will bear

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## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

Also it's not just GS. I been seeing many great brands such as Rolex, Panerai, IWC, JLC going for unheard of discounts at ADs...never even mind the gray market sellers and second hand there are bargains to be had on all these brands with the exception of a few highly desired models such as the Daytona.


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## Tseg (Mar 29, 2014)

JPfeuffer said:


> Also it's not just GS. I been seeing many great brands such as Rolex, Panerai, IWC, JLC going for unheard of discounts at ADs...never even mind the gray market sellers and second hand there are bargains to be had on all these brands with the exception of a few highly desired models such as the Daytona.


Since I have no plans to sell my marque watches I hope the bubble bursts.


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## JustinTan (Nov 21, 2012)

I'd never sell any of my watches. 

My very first good watch was in 2005 after I had graduated and got a full time professional job; a late 90s Omega Seamaster Professional (Cal1120, blue not co-axial) and I bought it for ~USD$1300 second hand which I think was nearly half price from RRP at the time. From that experience I made a rule to never buy a watch I didn't intend to keep forever, and I've been buying myself watches or have been gifted watches at every milestone so they all have sentimental value to me. 

I've had to hold myself back a couple of times; mainly on grand seikos. I really wanted to get the original SBGA011 springdrive snowflake when it first came out because of the springdrive movement and the snowflake was the nicest one. I didn't like the reserve meter on the dial (still don't) so I got a Hi-Beat instead. I still want a spring drive one day, but it'll probably be something like the Credor Eichi II (if I ever get promoted to C-Level/Partner). 
The other time was very recently with the SBGW252 or 253. Could not do it since I already have the original 3180 and I couldn't justify a very similar watch to one I already have (and would never sell). Still haven't decided which watch I want to get; Maybe I won't get one this time and double it up to get that Credor whenever I get that next promotion.


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## Btreichel87 (Jan 20, 2016)

shtora said:


> I had only one GS. Bought it used with the intention to keep it forever. However, I had to sell it several months later. This is so far my quickest sale - it took around 1 hour from posting the ad to the actual sale at a negligible loss.


key words are "bought it used". you didnt take a big loss, but im sure the guy before you did.


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