# Seiko Manufactured Sub-Brand "L" Jean Lassale



## Stoystown (Oct 24, 2009)

Hi,

I have a Seiko sub-brand "L" Jean Lassale 18k watch which I believe was manufactured, the 18k watch case and the 2F70A movement as well as all of the watch being assembled in Japan, at the Daini Factory. I believe this is true because the markings stamped on the watch case and movement. The back of the gold watch case is stamped with the Daini symbol and also has "JAPAN O" stamped on the inside of the case with the 2F70A movement marked "JAPAN'. (See Pics) Further, the watch case does not say "SWISS MADE".
Of course this does not mesh with the history of the buyout of Jean Lassale by Seiko and their subsequent relationship. Most stories relate the history of this buyout that all of the gold case's where hand tooled by Jean Lassale and the movements where also made and manufactured by Jean Lassale in Switzerland not Japan.
Another odd detail to this watch is why "Jean Lassale Inc." is stamped into the case back and into the movement. Jean Lassale Inc. is the company name not the brand name that has the "L" logo with Jean Lassale only - no "INC." Which to me means the company name was used to indicate ownership, not manufacture. So what do the watch's markings indicate?














































I also have a pics of the quartz analogue movement 2F70A from a Seiko sub branded Credor watch and one 2F50A with "Seiko Time Corp" stamped into the movement. To have the same movement manufactured in two locations, Switzerland or Japan dependent on branding of the watch by Seiko would not make business sense because it would seem uneconomical. So I would have to believe what I said at the beginning - the entire watch is made in Japan and "L" Jean Lassale and Jean Lassale INC. do NOT indicate anything to do with the manufacture of this watch but perhaps could indicate some co-ownership. Or am I wrong? Oh, and the 18k clasp has "JAPAN" stamped on one side and "JEAN LASSALE" on the other.



















Finally if any one has this watch can you tell me the serial number on the case back. I would like to try and find out how many of this watch where made.
If any one has the specs for the 2F70A that would be appreciated. I know the 2F50A is 1.3 mm in height. Is the 2F70A the same height, or why was this new number, 2F70A, created if they both have the movement height and number of jewels, 12?

Any information or comments will be appreciated.

Regards,
Stoystown


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

I posted a LaSalle Twin Quartz (the search function is your friend) and was told Seiko acquired LaSalle at some point.


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## Catalin (Jan 2, 2009)

Stoystown said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a Seiko sub-brand "L" Jean Lassale 18k watch which I believe was manufactured, the 18k watch case and the 2F70A movement as well as all of the watch being assembled in Japan, at the Daini Factory. I believe this is true because the markings stamped on the watch case and movement. The back of the gold watch case is stamped with the Daini symbol and also has "JAPAN O" stamped on the inside of the case with the 2F70A movement marked "JAPAN'. (See Pics) Further, the watch case does not say "SWISS MADE".
> Of course this does not mesh with the history of the buyout of Jean Lassale by Seiko and their subsequent relationship. Most stories relate the history of this buyout that all of the gold case's where hand tooled by Jean Lassale and the movements where also made and manufactured by Jean Lassale in Switzerland not Japan.
> ...


I believe internet rumors might have exaggerated many things, from the 'hand-made Rolex' to other smaller ones like that above ...


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## Stoystown (Oct 24, 2009)

Hi,
Thank you for your comment although I found it a bit cryptic. You seem to have only commented on the part of my post where I refer to "stories". I was just trying to be neutral and not say how I feel about what I have read about the saga, folk lore etcetera concerning the "history" of the Jean Lassale buyout by Seiko. I was actually quoting almost verbatim from a published book about watch companies. I did not want to name the book for fear of a suit or of being harassed. I can gladly PM you the title, author and page number. Another reason I said "story" is because there are many variations of the relationship in published books, Seiko, on the internet and by people who say things authoritatively who do not have the facts, actually know, or want to be intentionally vague. I am aware this is true because it seems Seiko lets the myths proliferate for reasons unknown to me. 

My humble attempt is to pierce the malarkey and to try find out about my watch. Unfortunately because of the current atmosphere being fostered, I do not know of a definitive book, and being an amateur, this is difficult. So my attempt is to present what I thought might be something that would generate informed discussion, and at the same time trying to be factual, by presenting my dilemma as accurately as possible, in hopes of finding out the very basics of the history of my watch. (Like who made what, where it was made etcetera.) You see in the late 80's I bought a VERY expensive watch believing it to be completely Swiss made. The watch had Jean Lassale branded into it, NOT Seiko! Until recently I believed this to be true. Then I started thinking about it and started doing some research. I know most people may not be interested in ultra thin, Jean Lassale or the watch company's history concerning the buy-out by Seiko, but I stepped into it, so-to-speak, when I bought this watch and am not real happy with what I found. I find it cheapens my watch and of course then the resale value. And it appears that most of those other "L" JEAN LASSALE quartz owners still do not know what the story is either judging by their for-sale descriptions. So you see I do not consider this topic too insignificant to be discussing. In fact a company that resorts to the sword of silence to distort their corporate history is sad. 

My watch is stylish in a retro sense and is still keeping accurate time, manufactured in Aug.1985/number 47, with one of the thinest analogue quartz movements that also contains one of the highest number of jewels Seiko has ever made. Further, the accuracy that a watch requires is relative, although it is recognized as a good measure of the technology in time, it is not the whole story determining value or quality over time. So my watch's survival is a testament to a high quality build, design. After all, it is only approximatley 3.5 mm thick. Why would Seiko not want to claim ownership of this watch?

At this point I'm hoping that someone with an interest and understanding of branding and how watches are stamped to validate them will weigh in and address my post. If anyone has direct knowledge in the history of the Seiko buyout of Jean Lassale I would really appreciate hearing from you. If not, that is ok too. The journey thru my watch's history has been interesting. To end, I just would like to gain some accurate knowledge through this forum.

Regards,
　
Stoystown


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

> I have a Seiko sub-brand "L" Jean Lassale 18k watch which I believe was manufactured, the 18k watch case and the 2F70A movement as well as all of the watch being assembled in Japan, at the Daini Factory. I believe this is true because the markings stamped on the watch case and movement. The back of the gold watch case is stamped with the Daini symbol and also has "JAPAN O" stamped on the inside of the case with the 2F70A movement marked "JAPAN'. (See Pics) Further, the watch case does not say "SWISS MADE".
> Of course this does not mesh with the history of the buyout of Jean Lassale by Seiko and their subsequent relationship. Most stories relate the history of this buyout that all of the gold case's where hand tooled by Jean Lassale and the movements where also made and manufactured by Jean Lassale in Switzerland not Japan.


I would be very surprised to read that a small fashion/high style watch house like Lassale would spend a considerable amount of money to set up a movement production line when very good movements could be sourced from Seiko, Citizen, ETA, etc.

I do not know what a hand tooled watch case is. I do know that watch cases are not manufactured by hand and a good many are produced by specialist companies for small brands. I would be surprised to learn that Lassale set up their own case production line. Clearly that is a Seiko movement in that Lassale branded watch.

When I look at the dial the first thing I notice is the country of origin label is missing. There was apparently not enough swiss content to quality for the Swiss Made brand. And understandably Seiko would not want buyers of the Lassale brand to think it was Japanese so they were silent. Much in the way Seiko was silent on the country of origin for another brand - Yema. Clearly it is a Japanese watch.

Seiko made some interesting watches under the Lassale brand. I gave my son a new Lassale World Timer that was made in the late 1980's. The Japanese heritage was proclaimed on the dial and it used a nice Seiko quartz movement. The small thin square stylish dress watch with cabachon crown was quite popular in the 1980's and several examples within the Seiko line were made up through the early 1990's.



> Another odd detail to this watch is why "Jean Lassale Inc." is stamped into the case back and into the movement. Jean Lassale Inc. is the company name not the brand name that has the "L" logo with Jean Lassale only - no "INC." Which to me means the company name was used to indicate ownership, not manufacture. So what do the watch's markings indicate?


It is common for watch companies to have their name struck into movements sourced from other companies. In some cases the watch company might enhance the movement, as with Omega, but most of the time it is a simple relabeling. I think you are reading way too much into the brand name and logo in trying to find a swiss origin. The brand name and logo were owned by Seiko and Seiko was free to call it anything they wanted to. Much as they used the Yema name and continue to use the Orient brand name. I think that Seiko was trying every thing it could to convince potential buyers that this just might be a swiss watch without actually saying so.


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## Stoystown (Oct 24, 2009)

I agree with you about Seiko Time Corporation being able to use the Trademark of Jean Lassale Inc., "L" JEAN LASSALE" any way they wanted to because they had trademark usage rights in the UK as early as 1978. Again Jean Lassale S.A. is a company name, not a brand name. Seiko did not have the right to stamp the 2F70A analogue quartz movement in my watch with "JEAN LASSALE INC." unless Jean Lassale Inc., the company, is in fact the majority owner of this movement.
In addition, previously the 2F50A analogue quartz movement was stamped "SIEKO TIME CORP.", why stamp the 2F70A in the Credor watch with "CREDOR", a brand not a company, if Seiko Time Corp. is the owner? The Japanese luxury market certainly knows who owns the sub-brand Credor. They did not because they could not. It is stamped the way it is because Seiko Time Corp. was given permission to sub-brand the 2F70A movement with "CREDOR" by Jean Lassale S.A. - the majority owner. Having the "CREDOR" on the movement has nothing to do with ownership. Its branding. Another point is why brand a product on the inside - no one sees it.
When was the Jean Lassale company completely bought out? Seiko only bought the brand name, not the company name. Jean Lassale S.A. was patenting ultra-thin watch cases as late as 1984, years after the brand was bought out. Remember the "Thalassa".
The only disguising of ownership is in the luxury Japanese market of the Swiss 2F70A movement in the Credor sub-brand. Seiko stamped all their products the way they should be.

Regards,


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

> I agree with you about Seiko Time Corporation being able to use the Trademark of Jean Lassale Inc., "L" JEAN LASSALE" any way they wanted to because they had trademark usage rights in the UK as early as 1978. Again Jean Lassale S.A. is a company name, not a brand name. Seiko did not have the right to stamp the 2F70A analogue quartz movement in my watch with "JEAN LASSALE INC." unless Jean Lassale Inc., the company, is in fact the majority owner of this movement.



I think that Seiko can do pretty much what it wants with watches and movements carrrying the Lassale names. Seiko has owned the brand since 1978. A separate entity Nouvelle Lemania was created back then to acquire the patents (apparently movements) of Lassale and produce Lemania movements. I see nothing having to do with name ownership.




> In addition, previously the 2F50A analogue quartz movement was stamped "SIEKO TIME CORP.", why stamp the 2F70A in the Credor watch with "CREDOR", a brand not a company, if Seiko Time Corp. is the owner? The Japanese luxury market certainly knows who owns the sub-brand Credor. They did not because they could not. It is stamped the way it is because Seiko Time Corp. was given permission to sub-brand the 2F70A movement with "CREDOR" by Jean Lassale S.A. - the majority owner.


Seiko owns the Lassale and Credor brands and has made watches in plants owned by Seiko for those brands for quite a while. Seiko has included their own movements branded Seiko as well as Lassale and Credor. I think Seiko can include just about any movement they want and brand it as needed to as long as they have the rights to do so. Jean Lassale SA is defunct but was last headed by Mr Hagiwara Yasunori. I suspect that company when operational was a wholly owned company within Seiko and that as owner Seiko could define their products in any way it saw fit.

Indeed there is a Seiko Credor watch with one of the high 8xxx series Seiko movements that I would love to have.



> Having the "CREDOR" on the movement has nothing to do with ownership. Its branding. Another point is why brand a product on the inside - no one sees it.
> When was the Jean Lassale company completely bought out? Seiko only bought the brand name, not the company name. Jean Lassale S.A. was patenting ultra-thin watch cases as late as 1984, years after the brand was bought out. Remember the "Thalassa".
> The only disguising of ownership is in the luxury Japanese market of the Swiss 2F70A movement in the Credor sub-brand. Seiko stamped all their products the way they should be.




See above. I think Lassale was little more than a department within Seiko that had a separate corporate charter. That way Seiko could maintain the illusion of Lassale being a separate swiss watch company when it was not. Perfectly legal. What you have are very nice dress watches produced by the Lassale subsidiary (effectively a department) of Seiko.


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## Seiko7A38 (Jan 12, 2010)

Stoystown said:


> My humble attempt is to pierce the malarkey and to try find out about my watch.


With my sincere apologies for the extremely belated 'bump' to this thread. :-d
It was the rather poignant title which the OP gave it, that prompted me to add to it, rather than start a new one.
I've also borrowed quite a few relevant partial quotes from this thread, so it only seemed the fair thing to do. ;-)

You see, I've just completed a little piece of research into a Jean 'L' Lassale 'Swiss Made' watch myself .... To be more specific, their Thalassa 7A74 quartz chronograph, which they produced in relatively small volumes in the mid-to-late 1980's.

It would appear that the movements used in these relatively expensive luxury watches was little more than a lightly modifed Seiko 7A34 15J quartz movement - a close cousin of the much-loved Seiko 7A38.

Not only that, but Seiko / Jean Lassale Inc., or whoever actually manufactured these movements stamped (an easily removable component of) them as both 'SWISS' and 'JAPAN' !! :-s

It's a bit of a long read (minor understatement) :roll: but if you're intrigued as I was by this kind of 'malarky', I hope you'll enjoy:

Topic: Jean Lassale Thalassa Quartz Chronograph - the missing 7Axx - Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't believe companies in any countries except the USA and Japan use the abbreviation "Inc". Hence the company name "Jean Lassale Inc." cannot be indicative of anyone trying to masquerade as a Swiss company. This seems to be consistent with Lassale being, in essence, a department of Seiko, at least when "Jean Lassale Inc" was being used. I seem to remember owning a very thin mechanical Lassale and a similar Longines, also very thin, at about te same time but I don't remember what year tat would have been, so not much help!


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## stratct (Jun 17, 2010)

I take it this is HEQ and not HAQ? just curious


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## Seiko7A38 (Jan 12, 2010)

stratct said:


> I take it this is HEQ and not HAQ? just curious


The Seiko (sorry, Jean Lassale) 7A74A movement used in the Thalassa quartz chronograph belongs to the Seiko 7Axx series of 15J movements. The best known of these are the 7A28(A) 7A38(A) and 7A48(A). The Thalassa's 7A74A movement is *very* closely related to the rather un-loved 7A34(A).

These movements, which back in 1983, were the world's first quartz analogue chronograph are not strictly HEQ, and well outside HAQ specs. They can be adjusted for accuracy in 0.26 seconds / day increments. However, I have a few 7A38's in my collection that can actually manage 10s / year. 

Here's an earlier thread on the subject: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/rate-adjustment-seiko-7a38-chronograph-282347.html

Nor for that matter do they meet the criteria set for HEQ by Bruce Reding:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/definition-high-end-quartz-26431.html

Having said that, the Seiko 7Axx's have acquired 'something of a following'. :-!


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## Seiko7A38 (Jan 12, 2010)

artec said:


> I don't believe companies in any countries except the USA and Japan use the abbreviation "Inc". Hence the company name "Jean Lassale Inc." cannot be indicative of anyone trying to masquerade as a Swiss company. This seems to be consistent with Lassale being, in essence, a department of Seiko, at least when "Jean Lassale Inc" was being used.


Jean Lassale Inc. was the US branch of Jean Lassale SA (allegedly of Geneva, but actually based in the rather less glamorous suburb of Carouge, at the time).
I recently bought a Jean Lassale Thalassa Cal. 7A74 chronograph, which was originally purchased direct from the wholesaler in NY.
It came with all its original boxes and *US market* paperwork.
The warranty booklet had this address inside (not Jean Lassale Inc., 640 Fifth Avenue NY 10059):










I've since done a considerable amount more research into the tacit Seiko / Jean Lassale relationship, and have as good as proven that they were one and the same company, and that Jean *L* Lassale was just a front.

The majority of watches are pure Seiko inside (as we already knew). Some of them came in rather nice swiss cases:










If anybody wants to read my research, the part about the Seiko / Jean Lassale association is towards the bottom:

Topic: Incoming - My 'Poor Man's Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74 chronograph - Seiko 7A38 - by the numbers


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## tiwarigeorge (Jun 22, 2012)

Help!! I just bought a Jean Lassale men's 18kt/ss thalassa watch. The movement read as follows "7772A six jewels unadjusted Jean Lassale Inc... it does not mention swiss or japan. The watch is in superb condition and was bought on ebay. The seller stated that it was indeed swiss. THe front of the watch states "Jean Lassale" Geneve and on the bottom reads swiss made. the band is a hidden 18kt/ss clasp with no logo on the band clasp. it is stated Jean lassale 18kt ss. if anyone has any info.. i would appreciate it. also the back read as follows THALASSA 200 7772 018 S6N480


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

A movement pic would help a great deal.


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## Seiko7A38 (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi, George.

Now I see how you found the thread on my forum. :-!
That is indeed a nice looking Thalassa. It looks like the 200 Diver model.
There's another FS on Chrono24.com: Jean Lassale Thalassa for $.1,257 for sale from a Private seller on Chrono24
Ignore the case-back photo in that advert - the seller has mistakenly included one of his 7A74-017 chrono. o|

As we've already discussed (by email), the previous poster is correct ....
Best way anybody can help you correctly identify the movement is by your posting a photo of it.
My guess is that it's a (Jean Lassale re-branded) version of Seiko's 7750A 6 jewel quartz movement.
See: http://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/3137_Seiko 7750A.pdf


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

Unfortunately the rules defining the country of origin allow for considerable latitude on the part of manufacturers. So far I have resisted the temptation to use the swiss cheese analogy. Lassale watches are indeed lovely timekeepers and their not well known Seiko heritage is a positive factor.



tiwarigeorge said:


> Help!! I just bought a Jean Lassale men's 18kt/ss thalassa watch. The movement read as follows "7772A six jewels unadjusted Jean Lassale Inc... *it does not mention swiss or japan. *The watch is in superb condition and was bought on ebay. *The seller stated that it was indeed swiss. THe front of the watch states "Jean Lassale" Geneve and on the bottom reads swiss made. *the band is a hidden 18kt/ss clasp with no logo on the band clasp. it is stated Jean lassale 18kt ss. if anyone has any info.. i would appreciate it. also the back read as follows THALASSA 200 7772 018 S6N480


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## Seiko7A38 (Jan 12, 2010)

John MS said:


> Unfortunately the rules defining the country of origin allow for considerable latitude on the part of manufacturers. So far I have resisted the temptation to use the swiss cheese analogy. Lassale watches are indeed lovely timekeepers and their not well known Seiko heritage is a positive factor.


As indeed I went at great lengths to point out in the first topic I wrote about the Thalassa 7A74 on my forum. :-!
Both these Seiko 7Axx-based* movements were fitted in stainless + 18K Jean Lassale Thalassa 7A74's:










The principle external visible difference between them (apart from the dial colour) being that one had 'SWISS MADE' printed at the bottom of the dial; the other did not:


















*The 'Jean Lassale Inc.' 7A74A movement used in these watches is basically a re-worked Seiko 7A34A 15J quartz movement fitted with the date wheel (_only - no day_) from the 7A38A movement. Oh yes, and then thinly disguised with a gold-anodized back-plate and battery positive terminal plate which (_very conveniently_) carries the majority of the stampings.

Hence my suggestion to George that his Jean Lassale Inc. 7772A movement is likely to be closely related to the Seiko 77xxA family - the 6 jewel 7750A being a likely candidate.


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

I found this by another author.

April 1980


Seiko enters the Swiss luxury market by purchasing a small, little-known, hi-end Swiss watch company called Jean Lassale, founded in 1976 and specializing in ultra thin watches of about 3mm, with the world’s thinnest mechanical movements of only 1.2mm thick. However, Seiko did not acquire the rights to the original Lassale mechanical movements. Those ended up with the company who made the movements for Lassale, who now licensed them instead to Piaget. Instead, Seiko fitted Jean Lassale’s watches with quartz movements, as was common with many Swiss brands by this time. However, instead of fitting them with Swiss made quartz movements, they used their own Japanese-made Seiko Quartz movements already developed in 1977-1979 for their successful Credor luxury line sold in Japan. This seemed a logical and practical move for Seiko, but it proved to be brash move that was not very well received. Realizing the potential opposition to this, Seiko tried to keep it quiet by removing the Seiko name from the movements, branding them instead with the Jean Lassale name. The only reference to Switzerland, “Swiss Case”, now only appeared stamped inside the case. But in advertising they used the clever deception of continuing to portray the Jean Lassale line as a “Geneva” watchmaker, promoting it as an ultra hi-end line with its heavy, hand-finished, solid gold cases. And there was no reference to its famous Japanese owner. One of the most notable accomplishments under Seiko’s ownership was the “Thalassa” launched in 1984, aimed directly at the best-selling Concord Mariner. It was designed by the famed Swiss designer Jorg Hysek, and won Monte Carlo’s Laurel D’ Or watch of the year award in 1986. Advertising boasted that it was “the most beautiful watch in the world” and that its watch bracelet contained more pieces than the engine of a Rolls-Royce. Shortly thereafter in response, Concord launched a successor to the Mariner, the Saratoga. But, to Seiko’s frustration, they never put much of a dent in the Swiss’s almost total lock on the high-end market, and would eventually close production. A comparatively little known Swiss brand with Japanese movements was no threat to the numerous well established and respected Swiss watch brands. But the original Jean Lassale mechanical movements created by watchmaker Pierre Mathuys are still considered a great watchmaking accomplishment, and the mechanical Jean Lassales are much sought after today.


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

My LaSalle purchased new in Puerto Rico in 1983


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

Laso1 said:


> I found this by another author.
> 
> April 1980
> Seiko enters the Swiss luxury market by purchasing a small, little-known, hi-end Swiss watch company called Jean Lassale, founded in 1976 and specializing in ultra thin watches of about 3mm, with the world's thinnest mechanical movements of only 1.2mm thick. However, Seiko did not acquire the rights to the original Lassale mechanical movements. Those ended up with the company who made the movements for Lassale, who now licensed them instead to Piaget. Instead, Seiko fitted Jean Lassale's watches with quartz movements, as was common with many Swiss brands by this time. However, instead of fitting them with Swiss made quartz movements, they used their own Japanese-made Seiko Quartz movements already developed in 1977-1979 for their successful Credor luxury line sold in Japan. This seemed a logical and practical move for Seiko, but it proved to be brash move that was not very well received. Realizing the potential opposition to this, Seiko tried to keep it quiet by removing the Seiko name from the movements, branding them instead with the Jean Lassale name. The only reference to Switzerland, "Swiss Case", now only appeared stamped inside the case. But in advertising they used the clever deception of continuing to portray the Jean Lassale line as a "Geneva" watchmaker, promoting it as an ultra hi-end line with its heavy, hand-finished, solid gold cases. And there was no reference to its famous Japanese owner. One of the most notable accomplishments under Seiko's ownership was the "Thalassa" launched in 1984, aimed directly at the best-selling Concord Mariner. It was designed by the famed Swiss designer Jorg Hysek, and won Monte Carlo's Laurel D' Or watch of the year award in 1986. Advertising boasted that it was "the most beautiful watch in the world" and that its watch bracelet contained more pieces than the engine of a Rolls-Royce. Shortly thereafter in response, Concord launched a successor to the Mariner, the Saratoga. But, to Seiko's frustration, they never put much of a dent in the Swiss's almost total lock on the high-end market, and would eventually close production. A comparatively little known Swiss brand with Japanese movements was no threat to the numerous well established and respected Swiss watch brands. But the original Jean Lassale mechanical movements created by watchmaker Pierre Mathuys are still considered a great watchmaking accomplishment, and the mechanical Jean Lassales are much sought after today.


I would be the author of this excerpt! It seems to has spread across the web, and I still get quoted from time to time. I did quite a bit of research on Seiko and Lassale's contributions to Quartz for my story, "The age of Quartz!" The relationship between Lassale and Seiko still continues to be confusing!


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Interesting, but did not need a bump after ~8 years.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

Shall I remove it then?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

No. I will lock the thread.


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