# Kingston without mercedes hand ala first 1953 Submariner?



## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

I was visiting the Rolex website when I came across this picture of the first Submariner, circa 1953, here: OFFICIAL ROLEX WEBSITE - Timeless Luxury Watches

I never had an intrerest in the Kingston because of the mercedes style minute hand. And until I saw the afore mentioned Submariner, never knew Rolex made a watch without them. To me, the original, non-mercedes hands look so much nicer; love the simpler second hand as well. The dial is also *super* clean with the minimal amount of writing.

Was an homage to this style ever discussed? Perhaps a limited edition of the Kingston in this style?


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

I'm with you... never did like the Mercedes hands...


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Don't believe it was discussed but this would have been a nice option, all it would take is a swap out of hour hand. The intent of the Kingston project though was to homage the Rolex that Sean Connery used in Dr. No, but in the usual MKII fashion, to allow for customization. When you consider one extra hour hand, and throw in for C3 and BGW9 and gilt or white, then that is already four extra different types of hour hands. It would have been a nice option though.
Rich


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Hmm, I might see if I can get that done to my Kingston once I get it. Never was a big fan of Mercedes hands, but those hands look great! Anybody know of a source for some gilt hands like that?


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

enkidu said:


> Hmm, I might see if I can get that done to my Kingston once I get it. Never was a big fan of Mercedes hands, but those hands look great! Anybody know of a source for some gilt hands like that?


Unfortunately I don't, maybe try ofrei. In any event, you need to be careful in choosing the color to match or it will look odd. If you do get it done, please post some good pics as I am quite curious how it would look.
Rich


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Also, one more note on the watch, it is not a big crown and the seconds hand has the ball at the very tip end.


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## bmick325 (Dec 15, 2009)

This watch would be a great starting point for the non-LE Kingston.


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

rmasso said:


> Don't believe it was discussed but this would have been a nice option, all it would take is a swap out of hour hand. The intent of the Kingston project though was to homage the Rolex that Sean Connery used in Dr. No, but in the usual MKII fashion, to allow for customization. When you consider one extra hour hand, and throw in for C3 and BGW9 and gilt or white, then that is already four extra different types of hour hands. It would have been a nice option though.
> Rich


Pretty much a moot point as the kingston is approaching the last of the deliveries. however I firmly believe that one of the things that slowed the Kingston down was the number of combinations of Dial,Date-nondate,hands,bezel, lume.I believe I counted up in a previous thread that there were something like 30+ possible combinations. Every time you add another variable, it doubles the possible combinations. Keeping track of what goees with a particular watch has to slow the process down. I believe that Bill has learned from this experience, and future projects will have less choices. It looks like from the specs on the PAnAM GMT project, the only option will be a White or black dial.

As far s changing out the hands on a Gilt kingston, I'm sure there are hands available. Using a standard ETA movement gives you a lot more possibilities as far as availability. As someone said, Ofrei would be a good startring point. May be hard to match the exact gilt,lume, etc so possibly you would need to change all the hands. I believe that finding the second hand with the ball at the very end would be the biggest challenge.


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## Galpo (Mar 30, 2008)

Do you mean like that?


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Galpo said:


> Do you mean like that?


All right! Give! Photoshop or actual hand swap? If hand swap, then where did you source the hands and do you have a stock/ref number? Thanks.


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

Galpo said:


> Do you mean like that?


Yes! I'd be fine with that second hand. Though, the original style ball at the end hand would make it look less than a rolex knock-off and vert unique.


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

bmick325 said:


> This watch would be a great starting point for the non-LE Kingston.


Yeah, that;s what I was thinking. The "special" Kingston that Bill brought to the last NYC GTG was very. very comfortable on the wrist. It was the mercedes hands that was the biggest turn off for me. Everything else, the bezel, dial, case, crown, were all perfect.


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## Fullers1845 (Nov 23, 2008)

Galpo said:


> Do you mean like that?


Galpo, you are a Photoshop GOD!

Don't know what so many of you have against the good 'ole Mercedes hour hand. I wouldn't have mine any other way!


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## siess (Jun 28, 2011)

bmick325 said:


> This watch would be a great starting point for the non-LE Kingston.


+1


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## Galpo (Mar 30, 2008)

enkidu said:


> All right! Give! Photoshop or actual hand swap? If hand swap, then where did you source the hands and do you have a stock/ref number? Thanks.


Photoshop, sorry


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## White Tuna (Mar 31, 2011)

nyc_paramedic said:


> I was visiting the Rolex website when I came across this picture of the first Submariner, circa 1953, here: OFFICIAL ROLEX WEBSITE - Timeless Luxury Watches
> 
> I never had an intrerest in the Kingston because of the mercedes style minute hand. And until I saw the afore mentioned Submariner, never knew Rolex made a watch without them. To me, the original, non-mercedes hands look so much nicer; love the simpler second hand as well. The dial is also *super* clean with the minimal amount of writing.
> 
> ...


https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/kin...uture-mk-ii-product-498348-2.html#post5010381


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## Cleans Up (Jun 14, 2010)

dead sexy


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Galpo said:


> Photoshop, sorry


Doh! Very well done. I guess I'll have to do it the hard way.


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Can someone with a Kingston (or hands) measure the Kingston hand lengths? I might as well start my search now. Thanks!


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

Fullers1845 said:


> Galpo, you are a Photoshop GOD!
> 
> Don't know what so many of you have against the good 'ole Mercedes hour hand. I wouldn't have mine any other way!


From my perspective, they are cliche. Even thier name, Mercedes hands, is cliche and vain. Been copied left and right, whether the dial says Rolex or not.

But an homage to the 1953 Sub would be very unique. And correct me if I'm wrong, it has never been copied or homaged. I had zero interest in anything Kingston or Rolex homage until I saw that 1953 Sub with the elegant, thin hour hand. Bill should really consider doing some.


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## kyoungren (May 7, 2010)

+1


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

nyc_paramedic said:


> From my perspective, they are cliche. Even thier name, Mercedes hands, is cliche and vain. Been copied left and right, whether the dial says Rolex or not.
> 
> But an homage to the 1953 Sub would be very unique. And correct me if I'm wrong, it has never been copied or homaged. I had zero interest in anything Kingston or Rolex homage until I saw that 1953 Sub with the elegant, thin hour hand. Bill should really consider doing some.


Me too! I have found a few possible candidates for the hand set, but nothing has the fine point and profile that the original has. The more I look at it, the more I like this hand set, classic yet not cliché. Mercedes hands on anything but a Rolex are cliché, and have been for a while.


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## Sieglinde (Feb 15, 2012)

Edit: Got my answer


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

enkidu said:


> Me too! I have found a few possible candidates for the hand set, but nothing has the fine point and profile that the original has. The more I look at it, the more I like this hand set, classic yet not cliché. Mercedes hands on anything but a Rolex are cliché, and have been for a while.


Well this is what I can say...if there are enough people interested in this version we can certainly get it done. The hurdles include:

* The insert is a naturally too close to the Kingston LE insert we would have to do something different.
* We can try using a silver/black dial rather than gilt/black
* The hands wouldn't be too hard to get done but new tooling would be required.
* To make the venture feasible we couldn't just sell the hands. We would need to sell the watch as a finished product.

Given these parameters let me know if you guys are still interested.

May be even something like this posted earlier.


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Yao said:


> Given these parameters let me know if you guys are still interested.


Interested. Very.


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## Myron (Dec 27, 2009)

Yao said:


> Given these parameters let me know if you guys are still interested.
> 
> May be even something like this posted earlier.


Definitely interested. The mercedes hand set are what keeps me from picking up a 2nd hand Kingston. I have a plank order in for the Pan Am, but I fear that I may not be able to live with the classic mercedes hands once it comes. I exchanged watches with my brother a couple weeks ago. He gave me his 14060 and I gave him a Stowa 2801 LE flieger. After a few days the hour hand on the Sub was driving me nuts. (I had numerous other complaints but I won't go into those here.) Suffice to say I was happy to trade back for my Stowa.

Anyway, put me down for a Kingston with pencil hands.

Myron


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## rob.winter (Oct 30, 2010)

Yao said:


> Given these parameters let me know if you guys are still interested.
> 
> May be even something like this posted earlier.


Definitely interested.


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

Yao said:


> Well this is what I can say...if there are enough people interested in this version we can certainly get it done. The hurdles include:
> 
> * The insert is a naturally too close to the Kingston LE insert we would have to do something different.
> * We can try using a silver/black dial rather than gilt/black
> ...


I am very, very interested. Silver black dial would make the watch much more versatile. Many folks, including myself, are not a fan of anything gold, whether it's gold jewlery or gold on watches. The silver dial and hands could be casual or dressy. It would also be nice to keep the dial print to a minumum ala the 1953 sub, but I'm open on this.

Bill, what about the second hand? Ball at the end or keep it modern Rolex?

Man, if this happens, it'll be one very unique, sweet watch and a keeper for many years. Look forward t it.


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## Whoknewi (Nov 9, 2010)

I would get one in a heartbeat. I have always had an issue with the mercedes hands, and these pencil hands are beautiful. In other words, sign me up!


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Yao said:


> Well this is what I can say...if there are enough people interested in this version we can certainly get it done. The hurdles include:
> 
> * The insert is a naturally too close to the Kingston LE insert we would have to do something different.
> * We can try using a silver/black dial rather than gilt/black
> ...


I might be interested in this, but that would make a third watch that looks similar to both my Kingston's. 
* Would it be a matte dial with white printing or a glossy dial with silver printing done in the same method as the gilt dial? That would be very interesting. 
* Would it have the big crown?
* Silver triangle with minute hash marks for first 15 minutes?
Some details would be helpful in making a decision.
Rich


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## Fullers1845 (Nov 23, 2008)

^Can there be too many, though?


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## siess (Jun 28, 2011)

Yao said:


> May be even something like this posted earlier.


Definitely interested - and quite like the look of the first picture insert with the minute markers all the way around


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

Fullers1845 said:


> ^Can there be too many, though?


Possibly, but they are selling, for whatever reason. possibly some folks buy them because they "look like" a Rolex Submariner, GMT, etc. Some may buy them because they like the Mercedes hands. Hard to know, but in a market driven economy, if they weren't selling, I'm sure the manufacturers would try something else. Personally, I like they Mercedes hands, but the "pencil" hands are pretty nice as well.Not sure that I would buy one, only because I have a watch box full of black dial sport watches,, plus another Kingston on the way and a deposit for a PanAm GMT (which will break the trend as it will be a white dial model).


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## bmick325 (Dec 15, 2009)

Very interested here. I'm a big fan of the red triangle insert and the "pencil' hands would serve to distinguish it from the LE Kingston. My preference would be for a matte dial. 

Any chance of getting vintage lume on the non-LE?


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

If this were to be modified as a homage to the non merc hand sub, the watch would also need a smaller crown which would further distinguish from the Kingston


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Fullers1845 said:


> ^Can there be too many, though?


Well Said...


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## OmegaCosmicMan (Apr 1, 2011)

I am very interested in hearing and seeing more about this. :-!


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## zivadavis (Aug 12, 2011)

i would definitely be interested...the pencil hands are awesome and definitely sets the watch apart from the rest of the herd of homages


i am probably in the minority here knowing it would require a new/different case design etc but throw in fixed lugs and it would be "perfect" (at least for me)

always wanted a fixed lug homage (the originals are prohibitively expensive) made with the extreme attention to components, fit, and finish only the way bill can do it.....couple the fixed lugs, the pencil hands, no date dial, guardless crown, etc and it would be my dream watch....

i know most folks do not go for the fixed lug thing but for some reason they are attractive to me as i rarely wear any of my watches with a metal bracelet....now that some artisans are offering leather zulus i would be in heaven with a leather zulu and the aforementioned fixed lug design.....ymmv.


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

zivadavis said:


> i would definitely be interested...the pencil hands are awesome and definitely sets the watch apart from the rest of the herd of homages
> 
> i am probably in the minority here knowing it would require a new/different case design etc but throw in fixed lugs and it would be "perfect" (at least for me)
> 
> ...


I agree totally on the fixed lugs. I'm a fan myself but many aren't. Some wear metal bands and others wear 2 piece leather. And Bill needs enough buyers to make this edition worth his while.

Unless for some strange twist many people agree to fixed lugs. Again, I would *love* it if this pencil hand Sub homage had fixed lugs. Would make it that much more unique.


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Personally not a fan of fixed lugs, but am a fan of modding. You should be able to convert to fixed lugs by doing a little machining: drill out holes, install tight fitting bar, cut bar ends, peen/weld down ends to fit, remove excess metal by filing/sanding/polishing. Even simpler but rougher, one could install shoulder less bars and solder/weld/jbweld the ends shut.


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

how come they don't come with oyster braceletes?


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## wtaps (Apr 24, 2012)

it's sexy and superb, love very much, please reserve one for me, i would become a die hard fans if you can make this version


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## Yao (Dec 12, 2006)

Memphis1 said:


> how come they don't come with oyster braceletes?


That's what _they_ would expect us to do!

but seriously the rivet style bracelet is more period and interesting IMHO.


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

While the pencil hands may be a new look, they are very hard to read at night. Even the genuine Rolex pencil minute hand has been 'maxi'-fied to allow for easier reading in low light conditions. I'd suggest a better version if another Rolex copy is in the works: the MilSpec Sub, an actually issued military watch. Distinctive, no stick and ball handset, and in keeping with the armed forces copy theme.

Here is an actual (not photoshop) reaction to the handset problem. Not entirely true to any specific forebear, but functional beyond mere form.


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## Fullers1845 (Nov 23, 2008)

^The watch.u.seek already exists, Brutha. The MKII Circle Yao Milsub. (Borrowed pic)


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

Yao said:


> Given these parameters let me know if you guys are still interested.


Interested.


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## gshock82 (Jan 14, 2009)

Quite interested


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

namor said:


> While the pencil hands may be a new look, they are very hard to read at night. Even the genuine Rolex pencil minute hand has been 'maxi'-fied to allow for easier reading in low light conditions. I'd suggest a better version if another Rolex copy is in the works: the MilSpec Sub, an actually issued military watch. Distinctive, no stick and ball handset, and in keeping with the armed forces copy theme.
> 
> Here is an actual (not photoshop) reaction to the handset problem. Not entirely true to any specific forebear, but functional beyond mere form.


I think very hard might be an exaggeration. I don't think you need to go all the way to the MOD sword heads to get legibility. The hands on this Stowa look great to me (pic from stowa.de):








Heck, if I could get these hands and get them gilded, I'd get them right now to put in my Kingston-to-be.


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## nyc_paramedic (Feb 6, 2009)

namor said:


> While the pencil hands may be a new look, they are very hard to read at night. Even the genuine Rolex pencil minute hand has been 'maxi'-fied to allow for easier reading in low light conditions. I'd suggest a better version if another Rolex copy is in the works: the MilSpec Sub, an actually issued military watch. Distinctive, no stick and ball handset, and in keeping with the armed forces copy theme.
> 
> Here is an actual (not photoshop) reaction to the handset problem. Not entirely true to any specific forebear, but functional beyond mere form.
> 
> View attachment 715546


I've never seen that before. Are those still available? It looks very new.


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## Whoknewi (Nov 9, 2010)

Oh man I forgot about this thread? I'm assuming this configuration (the pencil hands) is still far off in the future?


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## JCW1980 (Sep 24, 2009)

Fullers1845 said:


> ^The watch.u.seek already exists, Brutha. The MKII Circle Yao Milsub.


The MKII Circle Milsub is a 42mm right? If so, that'd be too big for my taste, but a MKII homage of the (mid-70's?) rolie milsub would be awesome!!! I'd be in on that for sure! :-!

I'll take one of the pencil hands sub homages too. ;-)


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Raising this thread up from the moldering. I realize I never got an answer to my question: What are the hand lengths of the Kingston?

And I'm still very interested in this Kingston/Nassau variation.


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## enkidu (Mar 26, 2010)

Anybody know the hand lengths of the Kingston? Beuller? Beuller? Thanks!


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## Whoknewi (Nov 9, 2010)

ditto, this is the variation I would order without a moment's hesitation.


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## andygray8 (Aug 24, 2010)

Yao said:


> Well this is what I can say...if there are enough people interested in this version we can certainly get it done. The hurdles include:
> 
> * The insert is a naturally too close to the Kingston LE insert we would have to do something different.
> * We can try using a silver/black dial rather than gilt/black
> ...


very, very interested.

Please make this one happen!


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