# Vintage Zenith Defy (1971)



## sempervivens

My new Zenith Defy...








Some random pics...









The original G.F. 'ladder' bracelets are my favorites, a unique vintage Zenith bracelet.

They are unique in the sense that although other brands also used Gay Frères bracelets, no other brand ever had the type of bracelets which Zenith got.

And of the different bracelets which Zenith used, although the others are also great, I like the 'ladder' the most.

Other brands had 'racing' style leather straps, but this is the nicest steel 'racing' bracelet, which allows your wrist to breathe.









Here you can catch a glimpse of the shape of original mineral crystal.







The crystal has been polished. This is what it looked like before polishing:








The watch came from the grandson of the first owner. I love a first owner watch. It also included an original box and papers, but the box and papers date to the 1980's, so apparently it was sold very late (or the box and papers were added later).

Here is a detail of the case condition:









Apparently the case has been polished in the past, but fortunately with respect for the original angles. IMHO this watch shows that a polished case can still be nice (although this case with all its facets is obviously very difficult to polish).

Compare it with another Defy with unpolished case, and you will note the difference:









(This is my Defy with the best case condition. Quite rare to see a vintage Zenith Defy with a case in this condition. A watch that has been in a safe for 40 years. )









The original brushed finish on the front facet is the best witness whether this type of case been polished or not.

Back to the watch in this post, since it has been polished, it has been serviced in the past; the crown also testifies to that:









This is a service crown with post 1973 Zenith logo. It is a good original crown though, a screwed crown which was probably made specifically for the Zenith Defy.

The back looks great, unpolished:









Note also the original endpieces for the Defy, signed 'ZC'. Of all the endpieces for Zenith bracelets, these are probably the easiest to replace, but it is still preferable to get the original ones.

The relatively high serial number in the xxxExxx range dates this watch to 1971/72, a date which is also confirmed by the bracelet date:









Onwards to the innards:














Patent number for the Defy movement suspension ring.









What a beautiful movement it is, Zenith cal. 2562 PC.









I love the regulating device, which is the best I know in any watch.

So nice that Hessu uses a pic of this device as his avatar.

I also like Hessu for being a bit frank and unconventional at times. Here he might observe that I've stretched regulating this movement a bit far...









Before regulating, it was running a bit fast, but now it is keeping excellent time. The movement looks very clean otherwise, so I can enjoy wearing it, and it doesn't need to go in for a service.

To finish, here are some wristshots.


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## jkpa

Great looking watch!


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## Hessu

Is this the watch you do have that polished glass? If so, the job is superbly done. 
I like the looks of the watch, even I do prefer the first edition with my favorite Zenith vintage automatic movement 2552PC and most of all without that 28 800 on the dial.


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*



jkpa said:


> Great looking watch!


Thank you 



Hessu said:


> Is this the watch you do have that polished glass? If so, the job is superbly done.


I'm glad you like it.



Hessu said:


> I like the looks of the watch, even I do prefer the first edition with my favorite Zenith vintage automatic movement 2552PC and most of all without that 28 800 on the dial.


It is IMHO a fairly rare example of a well preserved white dial Defy.

The white Defy dial seems so delicate, it easily gets stained or scratched. Maybe especially the first series (without the 28800), as my best samples are those with 28800 on the dial.

Here is one for you without "28800":








Zenith Defy c. 1970 : it already has a cal. 2562 PC, but not yet 28800 on the dial









This is the one with the (almost) perfect case.

It had a broken minute wheel and had been stored away for 40 years.









Now it has just been serviced.









And this is the other one again, with the (near) perfect dial.








Zenith Defy 28800 cal. 2562 PC c. 1971/72.









Some comparison shots.








A high serial number in the D range dates this one to 1970. Since it has the patent number 493877 on the inside, it should date after 15 July 1970, when the Defy patent was delivered.

Unfortunately I didn't get the original bracelet with it, as it was sold separately for a high price.
















Original crystal still in great condition.









The original lume has aged. the comparison shots show that the other one perhaps was relumed during service. If so, they have done a good job IMO.









As I'm in a "Defy" state of mind, I'm wearing both today b-)








Zenith Defy ref. A 3643 (1970)








Zenith Defy ref. A 3643 (1971)


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## D N Ravenna

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*



sempervivens said:


> Thank you
> 
> I'm glad you like it.
> 
> It is IMHO a fairly rare example of a well preserved white dial Defy.
> 
> The white Defy dial seems so delicate, it easily gets stained or scratched. Maybe especially the first series (without the 28800), as my best samples are those with 28800 on the dial.
> 
> Here is one for you without "28800":
> 
> Zenith Defy c. 1970 : it already has a cal. 2562 PC, but not yet 28800 on the dial
> 
> This is the one with the (almost) perfect case.
> 
> It had a broken minute wheel and had been stored away for 40 years.
> 
> Now it has just been serviced.
> 
> And this is the other one again, with the (near) perfect dial.
> 
> Zenith Defy 28800 cal. 2562 PC c. 1971/72.
> 
> Some comparison shots.
> 
> A high serial number in the D range dates this one to 1970. Since it has the patent number 493877 on the inside, it should date after 15 July 1970, when the Defy patent was delivered.
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't get the original bracelet with it, as it was sold separately for a high price.
> 
> Original crystal still in great condition.
> 
> The original lume has aged. the comparison shots show that the other one perhaps was relumed during service. If so, they have done a good job IMO.
> 
> As I'm in a "Defy" state of mind, I'm wearing both today b-)
> 
> Zenith Defy ref. A 3643 (1970)
> 
> Zenith Defy ref. A 3643 (1971)


Given that my favorite vintage Zenith is this Cal 40, your Defy's make me wish I had spent the money differently.









Thanks!

Dan


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## mpalmer

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

That's a nice looking vintage watch. The Defy has plenty of character. Congrats on your new old Zenith!


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

Forgot to add a picture of the original crown of the second watch. Compare original crown and service crown:















On a side note, both watches were tested for waterresistance. The one with the service crown is still waterresistant and the other is not. The difference may be that the rubber gasket of the original old crown is worn out. So one is reminded what a service crown is good for.

Maybe I should mention that the vintage Zenith Defy was *300 m* waterresistant (when it was new). A diver's watch, and that is also the reason why the colourful second hand is useful for extra visibility.



mpalmer said:


> That's a nice looking vintage watch. The Defy has plenty of character. Congrats on your new old Zenith!


Thank you. Well put. b-)



D N Ravenna said:


> Given that my favorite vintage Zenith is this Cal 40, your Defy's make me wish I had spent the money differently.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan


Thank you. IMHO no household should be without a cal. 40. As someone used to say, you should not think in terms of one _or _the other, but rather: one _and _the other.

Or, as a writer said: you better get both, because you never know when there will be a war again, and then you may not be able to get any!

What I find interesting is that you should compare the vintage Zenith Defy with a vintage 18 K gold Zenith. Because that's precisely what Zenith did : in this old catalog (shared by a certain forum member), the Zenith Defy is featured as the only steel model, among all gold Zenith watches:








Zenith catalog, c. 1970

I wondered what a few of these together would look like 








The Zenith Defy does hold its own.








Zenith Defy ref A 3643, Zenith El Primero ref G582, and Zenith chronograph ref G171









Hope you enjoyed this ;-)


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## Hartmut Richter

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

The gold EP is still a drop dead gorgeous watch!!

As for the Defy: can't you get the gasket in the old crown changed so it will be waterproof again?!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*



Hartmut Richter said:


> The gold EP is still a drop dead gorgeous watch!!
> 
> As for the Defy: can't you get the gasket in the old crown changed so it will be waterproof again?!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you, I'll cycle back to the watchmaker and ask him to change the gasket b-)


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## sempervivens

The watchmaker said, the gasket inside the crown is a special big size, and he won't be able to order it.

But in the meantime I noticed he used a non original gasket for the caseback (this also requires an unusual thick gasket). I insisted he should get a few of those, and he has taken the measures and will order it now b-)


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## Hessu

Also have a new Defy 28.800. Got it yesterday, fixed it today.









It was badly polished and I refinished it today and serviced the movement also, like I always do, no matter who says he has serviced it. This on also looked like a block of soap, managed to shape it a bit. Sadly the pervious polisher had polished off the serial.

Here's my Defy family:









Only two with original band.


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## sempervivens

Hessu said:


> Also have a new Defy 28.800. Got it yesterday, fixed it today.
> 
> It was badly polished and I refinished it today and serviced the movement also, like I always do, no matter who says he has serviced it. This on also looked like a block of soap, managed to shape it a bit. Sadly the pervious polisher had polished off the serial.
> 
> Here's my Defy family:
> 
> Only two with original band.


Lovely addition, at least it looks good now, don't know how it looked before. How wonderful it must be to be able to refinish it and service it all yourself b-)


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## sempervivens

Here's an update on the Zenith Defy A 3643 (white dial), the one without '28800' on the dial.

Watchmaker gave me a new gasket for the caseback. Still it tested non water-resistant. As mentioned before, this may be due to the gasket in the original crown (or something else, difficult to tell).

Anyway I'm sure that this (formerly 300 m water-resistant) vintage 1970 Zenith Defy is still far better waterproof than many other vintage watches.

In the meantime I also got an original G.F. bracelet for this. As always, I'm quite pleased with the look of the G.F. bracelet, and there's no comparison with a non-original bracelet, but I have to say it also looked good on a croc leather band.

But I'll let you be the judge of that:

*Before :*

(on leather band)









(on non-original bracelet)









*Today*

(on original G.F. 3/71 bracelet)


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## D N Ravenna

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

The original G.F bracelet never did much for me. Just did not like the style. But it did look rather sharp on the black strap!

Dan


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## Acme

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

Hello!

Not related to the Defy, but I noticed the beautiful gold chrono on the previous pictures. Is it a 146 DP? I have the same watch, but don't really have too much info on this model. I wonder, if You happen to have more knowledge on this watch, could You share it with me please?

Regards,

Acme


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*



Acme said:


> Hello!
> 
> Not related to the Defy, but I noticed the beautiful gold chrono on the previous pictures. Is it a 146 DP? I have the same watch, but don't really have too much info on this model. I wonder, if You happen to have more knowledge on this watch, could You share it with me please?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Acme


No, it is a cal 146 D, and dates to around 1965/66. If yours is a cal 146 DP (with some changes in the movement), it was probably made in 1969/70. But you should post it in a separate thread so we can see what we are talking about. There was a great variety of cal 146 DP chronographs, in gold, goldplated, and in steel.


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## Acme

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

Thank You for the response! Maybe I will do that, but I don't have a photo of the movement.

Regards,

Acme



sempervivens said:


> No, it is a cal 146 D, and dates to around 1965/66. If yours is a cal 146 DP (with some changes in the movement), it was probably made in 1969/70. But you should post it in a separate thread so we can see what we are talking about. There was a great variety of cal 146 DP chronographs, in gold, goldplated, and in steel.


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*



Acme said:


> Thank You for the response! Maybe I will do that, but I don't have a photo of the movement.
> 
> Regards, Acme


Photos of front and back should be enough


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## sempervivens

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

Might as well make this into a reference thread for the vintage Zenith Defy with white dial.

Here is another one from my collection:










This has a reference number on the back (01 0902 290), which dates it to ca. 1972/73.










This came on a leather strap. By 1972 the original Gay Frères 'ladder' bracelets went out of production, so it must have been more difficult to get the original bracelet with it.

This Defy came from (the family of) its first owner and included the original box:










Note: I got this one for Christmas a couple of years ago, here is the original post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-defy-28800-01-0902-290-a-794539.html


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## sempervivens

*Vintage Zenith Defy (1969) ref. A 3643*

Here is one more, a recent addition to the collection.









Zenith Defy ref. A 3643 (1969) (300 m waterproof)










This is the oldest ref. A 3643 (with white dial) in my collection.









Serial number 3xxDxxx and bracelet 1/69 date this to the first quarter of 1969









The bracelet has a useful safety lock (sometimes this is lost):









Early bracelets of this type often have a diver's extension hidden in the clasp as well:









The diver's extension is a bit unpractical as it makes it difficult to adapt the bracelet size by moving the bracelet a hole inside the clasp.









This may be the reason why later bracelets of this type don't have the diver's extension.









Unbelievable but true: when sold separately, the 'ladder' bracelet sometimes sells for more than the watch itself.









Original case finish and new original mineral crystal.









Original screw-down service crown.









The watchmaker tested it for me and it is still waterproof b-)









The vintage Zenith Defy is the most versatile watch you can imagine: it is a beautiful, elegant dress watch and a sturdy sports watch and diver at the same time.

I like to wear it when mowing the lawn... b-)









Movement Zenith cal. 2552 PC: as I'm wearing it only for a few days, I didn't bother to set the date, since this requires cycling back and forth between 19 pm and midnight (causing wear to the cannon pinion).


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## D N Ravenna

That is pretty nice! Thanks for sharing!

:-!

Dan


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## sempervivens

D N Ravenna said:


> That is pretty nice! Thanks for sharing!
> 
> :-!
> 
> Dan


Thanks Dan. Keeps good time too, + 3 seconds /day.


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## JPfeuffer

What a lovely piece!


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## VinDefy

What a great looking Defy indeed! The dial and the hands are simply superb! I'm still looking for one of those 3xxDxxx serial number myself. 

For the time being the white dials (A3645) are losing to the khaki dials (A3643) 2 to 4 in my collection. Below a quick picture of my A3645s. The one on the left is a 22xExxx with a 2562PC movement, the one on the right a 82xDxxx with a 2552PC movement. The 82xDxxx were probably the last with a 2552PC movement. I was fortunate to receive another 82xDxxx this Thursday with a khaki dial that has a 2552PC as well. Just like the A3645 on the right, it has a GF bracelet of the third quarter of 1970.









Kind regards,
VinDefy


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## phoobo

Very delicate, the white one. I've got a brown and a blue, but I'm jealous.

But my real question: anyone know where I can get one of those original crowns?


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## DolleDolf

Great thread! Love those ladder straps.


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## sempervivens

DolleDolf said:


> Great thread! Love those ladder straps.


Thanks!

Unfortunately the price for the bracelets seems to be going up. Fortunately Zenith made many Defy's with original bracelets.



VinDefy said:


> What a great looking Defy indeed! The dial and the hands are simply superb! I'm still looking for one of those 3xxDxxx serial number myself.
> 
> For the time being the white dials (A3645) are losing to the khaki dials (A3643) 2 to 4 in my collection. Below a quick picture of my A3645s. The one on the left is a 22xExxx with a 2562PC movement, the one on the right a 82xDxxx with a 2552PC movement. The 82xDxxx were probably the last with a 2552PC movement. I was fortunate to receive another 82xDxxx this Thursday with a khaki dial that has a 2552PC as well. Just like the A3645 on the right, it has a GF bracelet of the third quarter of 1970.
> 
> Kind regards,
> VinDefy


Congrats! That's a beautiful pair.

Some of you may have wondered why VinDefy refers to the white dial as ref A 3645 and the khaki as ref A 3643, whereas I have referred in this post to the white dial as ref *A 3643* and the khaki IMO is ref A 3642.

The reason is simple: VinDefy has taken a good look at this old Japanese catalogue.










Here the black Defy is indicated as ref A 3642, the khaki as A 3643 and the white as A 3645.

However on the basis of the evidence of three different European catalogues, it is certain that the khaki dial is actually ref A 3642 and the white dial is ref A 3643.








*Zenith Defy Ref A3642 with khaki (grey/green) dial and steel hour markers*








*Zenith Defy Ref A3643 with white dial*

This means that the Japanese catalogue has mixed up the numbers (or the watches, if you prefer).

And thanks to the Japanese catalogue (the only one that features the black Defy) we can conclude that the *Zenith Defy with black dial is ref A 3645*!









*A 3645 (black dial) - A 3642 (khaki dial with broad steel hour markers) - A 3643 (white dial)*


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## VinDefy

Thank you for making this clear sempervivens because I think that some people were getting confused about those references. ;-) 

However, I am still wondering whether these are the only dial versions that were brought to the market (I known, I'm being difficult :-d). From time to time you see for instance the blue dials in the octagonal case. Ok, it might be that those are dials that were once in a tonneau case or were ment for the tonneau case, but given the number of blue dials which I have seen in an octagonal case lately, I start wondering whether Zenith did not bring a batch with the blue dial to the market in certain contries as well... 

Kind regards,
VinDefy


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## sempervivens

What we know for certain is: around 1971, Zenith introduced the new tonneau case style for the Zenith Defy and three new dial variations to go with that case style.

These new, beautiful dials however also fit the older, octagonal case style.

But were they also used officially by Zenith for the octagonal case?

It is common knowledge that Rössler shows a catalog pic of a reference *A 3691* with red dial.









Zenith must have made very few of these, as I've never seen one for sale. On the other hand, it would be fairly easy to create this yourself by placing a red dial in an octagonal case.

Your question is: is it possible that Zenith also used the turquoise blue dial in the octagonal case?

I would say it is quite possible. The main reason why I say so, is that I found out that there also existed an octagonal Defy with ref *A 3690*.

Since the A 3691 had the red dial, it is very well possible that the A 3690 had a turquoise dial.

In fact I have seen more octagonal Defy's with turquoise blue dial, than with red dial. Only, I have never seen a catalog pic of the A 3690.

However I'm quite sure that this is all for the classic octagonal Defy's and there are no further references besides these: A 3642-3643-3644-3645 (created in 1969) and A 3690-3691 (created ca. 1971).


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## VinDefy

Very interesting! I would in any case argue that it is very likely that if you have some proof that there was a reference A3690 as well, that this one corresponds with the turquoise blue dial. IMO, there are simply too many turquoise blue dials popping up in octagonal cases, so it is simply too unlikely that those are all watches with a dial that has been replaced and if they have been brought to the market like this, then there must have been a reference number for these watches I would think.

What concerns the red dial, I don 't think that I have seen the red dial version been offered in an octagonal case during the last year, so in any case the red dial version in the octagonal case is pretty rare and to be quite honnest, I was wondering whether the extract shown in Rössler was not simply a proof-sheet of a catalogue that never went in production because, as far as I know, nobody else has seen a copy of it.



sempervivens said:


> However I'm quite sure that this is all for the classic octagonal Defy's and there are no further references besides these: A 3642-3643-3644-3645 (created in 1969) and A 3690-3691 (created ca. 1971).


Now, what puzzles me is that you mention reference A3644 above. Not that I would be surprised that there is a A3644 given there is a reference A3643 and A3645, but which dial version is this?

Kind regards,
VinDefy


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## sempervivens

VinDefy said:


> What concerns the red dial, I don 't think that I have seen the red dial version been offered in an octagonal case during the last year, so in any case the red dial version in the octagonal case is pretty rare and to be quite honnest, I was wondering whether the extract shown in Rössler was not simply a proof-sheet of a catalogue that never went in production because, as far as I know, nobody else has seen a copy of it.


I think it is going a bit far to suspect that it is only a proof-sheet of a catalogue. Moreover, the other watches in the same catalogue extract are all well-known.



VinDefy said:


> Now, what puzzles me is that you mention reference A3644 above. Not that I would be surprised that there is a A3644 given there is a reference A3643 and A3645, but which dial version is this?
> 
> Kind regards,
> VinDefy


Thanks for asking. In my opinion this must be the *A 3644*:









I have seen other examples of this dial, as a matter of fact there is one for sale on the bay right now:








But the best one is surely Hessu's:







(This picture courtesy of Hessu)

This dial is a crossover of the ref A 3642 and A 3643: it has the grey-green colour of the former and the tall, trapezoidal hour markers of the latter.

It's logical that this must be the ref A 3644. This dial is different from the others and so it must have its own reference. I know that ref. A 3644 exists and I conclude this must be it.

Based on the serial number of Hessu's sample and the rarity of these, I believe this reference was only produced in the beginning (early in 1969).


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## Hessu

My latest purchase from today a Defy with yellow glass. 227E337. This watch does have a normal white dial, but glass is yellow, all original. bought this one from a retired watchmaker who sold it back in the day. The customer did not like the glass and he put on a normal glass and stached the yellow glass, now he bought the watch back and put the yellow glass back on. This one has a non-original crown, but I'm gonna get a proper crown.


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## sempervivens

Congrats and thanks for sharing. Looks like a very good condition, very good case and dial.

But not the crystal and crown. I don't think the original crystal was meant to be yellow, it has turned to yellow.

Looks like a nice original bracelet too. Does it have the diver's extension?

Based on the serial number, I think the watch was produced in 1972. What is the bracelet date?


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## Hessu

The seller said it was yellow when he sold it from his shop early 70's. The dude was old but not senile, the same seller that sold me 135 and khaki Defy year ago, he as been a Zenith AD at 60's and 70's. A mineral glass can't turn yellow by age. Must have been somesort of experiment by Zenith. I have wondered some catalogue pics where supposed white dial looks not so white. Check 'em out, you have got those catalogue pics.
Bracelet dates 2/70.


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## sempervivens

That will remain a mystery crystal I'm afraid, I've never seen a yellow Defy crystal before.

I have seen plastic replacement crystals for this model Defy, with the same shape as the original mineral glass, but not yellow.

Maybe it was a fault in production. Did he have more than one with yellow crystal in his shop?

It's a long time ago, your friend may be mistaken, _errare humanum est_.

Didn't you just say the bracelet was a GF without extension dated 1/71?

As far as I remember in catalogs the white Defy always looks white.









*Zenith Defy Ref A3643 (white dial)
**









*Now you only need a black one ;-)


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## Rifish

Here is my lates purchase, Zenith Defy from 1971 (?). I dare to say this because the serial number is xxxExxx and on Gay Freres ladder bracelet is a mark "2/71".

This is my first automatic Zenith. The movement is 2562PC and it has been just serviced so it runs very well, about +2-3 seconds a day which is superb.

I'm a big fan of Defy watches but in this version (ref. A3645?) I especially like the grey/black dial. I haven't seen those so much. I guess everything else is orginal exept the chrystal.

Definitely a keeper!


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## Hartmut Richter

Very nice! These watches were really built to take anything! I see that you've got a service crown with newer logo too.....

Hartmut Richter


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## Rifish

Hartmut Richter said:


> Very nice! These watches were really built to take anything! I see that you've got a service crown with newer logo too.....


Yes, thanks for these conversations I just learnt that it is a service crown. In orginal version there is a different kind of Zenith star. About the crystal: Is it easy to find orginal crystal for vintage Defy?

I think that I'm going to use this watch with leather strap and keep this orginal GF strap in safe. I read that these watches have been sold orginally also with leather strap. Does anybody know what kind of leather strap that was?

I also might try a vintage mesh strap on my Defy. Didn't find any pictures about vintage Defy and a mesh strap but that could be a good combination.


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## sempervivens

Congratulations with your Zenith Defy. The dial and hands look very good.

There is nothing like the original bracelet: why change it? Especially for the black dial IMHO it looks best on the bracelet (the white dial being more elegant also looks good on a crocodile style strap).

The original mineral crystal is rare to find, but there are also replacement acrylic crystals around which have the same shape.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Congratulations with your Zenith Defy. The dial and hands look very good.
> 
> There is nothing like the original bracelet: why change it? Especially for the black dial IMHO it looks best on the bracelet (the white dial being more elegant also looks good on a crocodile style strap).
> 
> The original mineral crystal is rare to find, but there are also replacement acrylic crystals around which have the same shape.


Thanks! I change the bracelet because:

1) Altogether I'm not a big fan of steel bracelets. I have about ten watches and none of them have steel bracelet.
2) I'm not a fan of this GF bracelet (that another style orginal bracelet would have been better) and I don't want to wear it out. Of course I'm going to keep it but I like leather straps which I can use with no worries.

Do you know how much these replacement acrylic crystals are costing?


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## sempervivens

See Zenith Defy Vintage replacement acrylic / plexi domed watch glass / crystal | eBay

I'm not affiliated with the seller. Note that the replacement crystal may require adaptation by the watchmaker.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> See Zenith Defy Vintage replacement acrylic / plexi domed watch glass / crystal | eBay
> 
> I'm not affiliated with the seller. Note that the replacement crystal may require adaptation by the watchmaker.


Ok, thanks. Somehow couldn't find that on the Ebay.


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## Rifish

As I wrote earlier, I wanted to have my Defy with leather strap. So here is my Defy with brown ColaReb strap. In reality it is not that brown. It is a bit lighter and maybe greyer. I think it has a good seventies vibe.


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## sempervivens

Very nice, I love the Defy's, for their beauty and the amazing accuracy.


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## JonB79

Not a fan of the bracelet, but the dial is beautiful.


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## James A

Thought I'd add a few more vintage references here - This thread seems to be the most comprehensive guide to the Defy model - but feel free to swap the images below to a better database if there is one.

At first glance, the Defy seemed to me to be an ugly watch, but as I have come to understand it - must admit, I am really warming to it.





















Regards,


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## Rifish

Here is my current Defy team. I just got from the service my khaki Defy. I asked my watchmaker just to clean the watch and service the movement. I didn't want to touch to the case, chrystal, crown or brecelet while they are for my eyes all original and untouched. For example chyrstal have lots of scrathes but I really love that original chrystal.

As you can see, I'm still missing the white one. I would like to have white dial version in good shape (dial and case), but haven't found one yet in decent price. And of cource it would be nice to have someday Defy Plongeur. And then there is tgat rare white dial Defy with those different indeces...Man I have lot of money to save


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## sempervivens

Beautiful collection. The white Defy is indeed difficult to find in good condition, the dial is easily scratched or stained.


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## Hessu

The four horsemen.









A3643, A3644, A3645 and A3642


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## Rifish

Wow, that is a great Defy collection Hessu! And they all have original Gay Freres bracelet. Have you got all of those with the GF bracelet or did you have to in some cases try to find bracelet separetely?


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## Hessu

All came with GF exept white. Swapped bracelet from another one (white 28.800) and sold it on with Hirsch Pure. I have also had some more Defys without GF but sold them on.


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## Rifish

My Defy collection got two more pieces. I have tried to find a white dial Defy in decent condition and now I found one. Ok, case is not in perfect shape and dial has some patina (looks more like gold than silver) but I can live with it. I really love that white dial.

I also bought this "TV-Defy". I think it is in great shape although there are some dings and dangs on the case. I would say that case has not been polished. I'm not a big fan of the design but it is a good addition to my Defy collection.










Lähetetty minun F8331 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


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## sempervivens

Very good, congrats! The 'Tv Defy' is also very photogenic IMHo.


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## Rifish

Thanks!

One question about the cases of octagonal Defy: Is there any variation how the cases have been finished?

There seems to be a difference how those biggest beveled edges at 12 and 6 o'clock have been finished. In some cases they are bigger and go near to bezel even if case seems to be unpolished. In some cases (like here with my white dial Defy) there is a quite big gap between beveled edge and bezel. Beveled edge is also much smaller.

Hopefully you understand what I mean









Lähetetty minun F8331 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


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## sempervivens

Maybe you could show us what you mean by pictures. Personally I doubt that originally there were different cases or differences in the way the cases were factory finished. Of course many cases have been repolished resulting in thinner edges.


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## Rifish

Yes, here is a picture about what I mean. I thought that this khaki dial version was unpolished but now when I look at this white one I guess that beveled edge at six o'clock is how it should be also on khaki one.









Lähetetty minun F8331 laitteesta Tapatalkilla


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## sempervivens

Yes, some have been polished badly, some have been polished in a way which looks almost original. These two look almost original but if you also consider the sides it is clear that both were polished.


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## Eclectic Gearhead

Super cool watches!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> Yes, some have been polished badly, some have been polished in a way which looks almost original. These two look almost original but if you also consider the sides it is clear that both were polished.


On the other hand I don't now is it always easy to see has it been polished for example 20 years ago or has it just been worn over 40 years which will "polish" the case also but on "natural way".

And about that my first question about the finishing. On many catalogue pictures it seems like that those beveled edges on 12 and 6 o'clock are quite big and they reaches almost to the bezel. On the other hand on my white dial Defy that gap is quite big. If it would have been polished over the years, I guess that gap should be atleast same as on catalogue pictures.


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## sempervivens

I think you're right and you're on on to something. Which means I have to reconsider my earlier opinion.

Apparently there are two different cases with smaller and wider gaps between the bezel and the edges at 12 and 6 o'clock.

Clearly your white Defy has a wider gap between the bezel and the edge. Even if it has been polished, obviously the polishing hasn't added any steel to the case.

Comparing it with one of my best (unpolished) Defy cases, this has a very narrow gap - although it has never been polished.

















So I'm now convinced you are right and there are two different Defy cases.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> I think you're right and you're on on to something. Which means I have to reconsider my earlier opinion.
> 
> Apparently there are two different cases with smaller and wider gaps between the bezel and the edges at 12 and 6 o'clock.
> 
> Clearly your white Defy has a wider gap between the bezel and the edge. Even if it has been polished, obviously the polishing hasn't added any steel to the case.
> 
> Comparing it with one of my best (unpolished) Defy cases, this has a very narrow gap - although it has never been polished.
> 
> So I'm now convinced you are right and there are two different Defy cases.


Yes, it is hard to find another solution for this. Now the intresting question is that which Defy models had these cases with wider gap between edge and bezel and are those versions less common? In all catalogue pictures seems to be that version with small gap. Also in the orginal Defy booklet seems to be that version.

I have read that EPSA made Defy cases for Zenith. I guess EPSA made both of these but did it produce a smaller batch of this wider gap version? Maybe EPSA produced those on some earlier years and Zenith put also those on sale.

Lots of question wich hopefully we get answers in someday😊


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## sempervivens

In the meantime I had the possibility to check my own collection of Defy's concerning this bigger/smaller gap question.

Unfortunately I find it hard to conclude anything, which means I have to reconsider again, and I'm back to my original opinion: I doubt there are two different cases.

As a basic rule, it seems there is only a 1 mm gap between the edge of the glass ring and the edge of the brushed surface at 6 or 12 o'clock.

Sometimes this gap can seem a bit wider, up to 2 mm, but this could simply be the result of the different positioning of the multi-faceted glass ring.

Moreover: the glass ring itself may have been polished. 

This then may create the optical illusion that there is a wider gap.


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## Rifish

sempervivens said:


> In the meantime I had the possibility to check my own collection of Defy's concerning this bigger/smaller gap question.
> 
> Unfortunately I find it hard to conclude anything, which means I have to reconsider again, and I'm back to my original opinion: I doubt there are two different cases.
> 
> As a basic rule, it seems there is only a 1 mm gap between the edge of the glass ring and the edge of the brushed surface at 6 or 12 o'clock.
> 
> Sometimes this gap can seem a bit wider, up to 2 mm, but this could simply be the result of the different positioning of the multi-faceted glass ring.
> 
> Moreover: the glass ring itself may have been polished.
> 
> This then may create the optical illusion that there is a wider gap.


Thanks for your thoughts. I still think that it is not about optical illusion and about glass ring.

Here is again a picture two of my Zenith Defy watches. They both have similar glass ring. But as you can see, the size and shape of those beveled edges at six o'clock are totally different.

Khaki version has much bigger beveled edge. I measured that it is 5 mm at it's highest point. White one has 4 mm beveled edge at it's highest point and that is why the gap between beleved edge and bezel is bigger than in khaki verdion. I would say that in all others my Defy watches have bigger beveled edges rxept this this white one. Also in catalogue pictures and manual pictures (second picture attached) have these bigger beveled edges.

If beveled edges of that white version would be orginal ones then everything would be ok. Then those bigger ones could be polished again but as catalogue pictures show that should not be the answer. So still I wonder why this white one has different kind of case finishing?

By the way, my khaki and white Defy are not in "real life" so shiny and polished as they look like in those pictures.


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## sempervivens

The glass ring of your white Defy does look polished, more so so than the khaki one. It's also sitting higher on the case, you can see the gap between case and ring: apparently the ring is not screwed on as tight. But you are right and a polished ring is still not enough to explain the big difference in the cases. 

Since the white one also has a smaller front facet, I think more of the case was polished away on top: it was completely repolished, thus creating a bigger space on top, and a smaller front facet. These are just some thoughts, trying to explain the difference by the polishing which obviously took place. Although I'm no expert in polishing, I think it is possible to create a new case like that by heavily polishing the standard Defy case. The top becomes lower and as a result the front facet is also one mm less in height.

To prove on the contrary that it is an original case which was different from the beginning, I think you should find more than one example, and preferably at least one unpolished example.

As it is now, most Defy cases have been polished and as a result there are small differences in the cases. Usually the difference is not as big as in this example, which I'm inclined to judge (forgive me) as heavily polished.


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## Rifish

Yes, maybe it is re-polished which would explain the difference. Hard to say as I'm not an expert of polishing but that would be the easiest explanation.

Overall, it is not easy to be vintage Defy enthusiast. It is very hard to find cases and dials that are in good/orginal shape, expecially some spesific dial colours. Vintage Defy watches must one of the hardest vintage watches to collect if you want to collect watches in orginal shape. Ok, for example many vintage Rolex Datejusts have so polished cases that the orginal shape has been gone but on the other hand Datejust is very common watch.

This had one of the best white dials I've seen for a while and for my eyes ok shape of the case. Well still I enjoy also this white one alot.


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## sempervivens

I'm glad you see it the same way as I do: even though most vintage Zenith Defy's have polished cases, and some patina on the dials, they are still very beautiful, and enjoyable. After all they are vintage watches, they need not be perfect.


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## tropicwatches

Excellent images - thanks for sharing!


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## tropicwatches

*Re: Vintage Zenith Defy white dial*

I love the Zenith Defy with the white dial. I also love the model with the crown at 4:30, and the Plongeur 600 which is my favorite.


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## tropicwatches

Some of these Defy models have such crisp edges, I've rarely seen one as nice.


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## tropicwatches

Was the yellow glass an option you could choose? I've never seen that, but it's interesting. Thanks


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## tropicwatches

So great to see the two examples side by side in order to comprehend the effect of polishing! Thanks for sharing that -


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