# Stowa v IWC?



## bydandie (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm asking this out of curiosity really, as we see many Stowa v Laco and Archimede threads but no Stowa v IWC.

So, for those who have them, how do the Stowa watches compare against similar IWC watches (I'm talking fliegers here I guess as I was struck by how similar the Stowa Ikarus was to an IWC flieger I saw on the net recently)?


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## Peter Atwood (Feb 16, 2006)

I don't have an IWC flieger but I'm willing to be the fit and finish of the Stowa would give it a run for the money. To be sure, the IWCs feature in house movements with power reserve complication and all so they are a slightly different animal but still the price is about 10 times more than a Stowa and a little tough to justify to my mind.

Now, the new Vintage line from IWC is a little bit different story...:-!


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## bullitt731 (Oct 24, 2006)

"So, for those who have them, how do the Stowa watches compare against similar IWC watches?"

The reason you probably have not found any threads is because there is a huge difference between the two from movement to design and finishing. It would be like comparing apples to oranges. I believe if you did some research on IWC you would understand why there are no comparisons. 

However with that said, IMHO Stowa is in a class by themself when it comes to the value of the FO LE.


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## bydandie (Mar 12, 2008)

bullitt731 said:


> "So, for those who have them, how do the Stowa watches compare against similar IWC watches?"
> 
> The reason you probably have not found any threads is because there is a huge difference between the two from movement to design and finishing. It would be like comparing apples to oranges. I believe if you did some research on IWC you would understand why there are no comparisons.
> 
> However with that said, IMHO Stowa is in a class by themself when it comes to the value of the FO LE.


Bearing in mind that IWC were subcontracted by Laco/Stowa to assist with Uhr-B comparison during WWII, and Joerg continues to create watches of the craftsmanship of the FO and MO, I would say that there must be some comparison with the IWC watches.

From my basic understanding, IWC uses base ETA movements which is not at all disimilar to Joerg's enhancements in the FO.

My main point is that comparing a Stowa with an Archimede/Laco etc is a bit unfair given the amount of work that goes into the Stowa watches. I would also think it fair/interesting to compare Stowa to IWC watches as the Schauer watches could surely match the IWC bretheren and Stowa is run by the same person (Not a conglomerate which has to be worth something these days!).


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## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

I think there is a little confusion here--do you mean to compare Stowa Fliegers to IWC Big Pilots? Then there is certainly a huge price and difference in finishing (in-house movement).

However, there are many IWC Fliegers that use modified ETA movements (much like Stowa does). In fact, Peter (who posted above) _does_ have an IWC Flieger (a 3717 chrono), which he made some comments about in comparison to the FO in a previous thread.

IWC rebuilds and replaces many parts of the ETA base movements--to that end, they put a lot more work in than Stowa does. However, my conjecture is that if you look at the Stowa FO, the dial and hands are actually nicer than the comparable IWC. Peter said that he actually thought that the casework was nicer as well. All that said, IWCs are often at least 3x the cost of Stowa watches.

FWIW, I decided to go with the Stowa FO rather than an IWC UTC classic. I think the individual attention of the FO, along with it's limited status and history make it more desirable.

Cheers,
Daniel


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

I have always wanted an IWC Mark XV or Mark XVI, but am glad I decided to go with the Stowa FO. Maybe one day I would add the Mark XV becasue the hands pay better homage to the original IWC/JLC Mark XI. The current Mark XVI leans more towards the B-Uhr look and I like the blued hands on the FO better than the black hands on the Mark XVI.

As far as the movement in the Mark XVI, it is based on the ETA 2892 and has been re-worked with higher grade parts and materials. Like Daniel said, IWC puts a lot more work into the stock ETA movements. Also, IWC uses an iron inner core to protect against magnetism. That would be nice to have as well. Having said that, I wouldn't trade my FO for a Mark XV or XVI because of the things that Daniel said and the fact it has some beautiful blued hands and way better lume than the either IWC.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2008)

bydandie said:


> Bearing in mind that IWC were subcontracted by Laco/Stowa to assist with Uhr-B comparison during WWII....


Would you mind to provide more info in that ? I am not aware that IWC was subcontracted by Laco/Stowa :think:

Here are some historical facts as I understand them:

The German term "Beobachtungsuhr" (short: B-Uhr) goes back to pilot´s watches of WW II. Strictly translated it has to be an "Observer´s watch" or "Observation watch" but on most watch related fora you will read "navigator´s watch", "pilot´s watch", "B-watch" or even "Flieger".

These B-watches have been made for the German Luftwaffe by only 5 manufacturers

A. Lange & Söhne 
Laco (Lacher & Co) 
Stowa (Walter Storz) 
Wempe (Chronometerwerke Hamburg) 
IWC

and contained high quality pocket watch movements:

Lange & Söhne: cal. 48/1 
(due to limited capacities watches have been assembled by Huber/Munich, Felsing/Berlin, Schieron/Stuttgart, Schätzle & Tschudin/Pforzheim, Wempe/Hamburg). 
Laco: Durowe cal. D 5 
Stowa: Unitas cal. 2812 
Wempe: Thommen cal. 31 
IWC: cal. 52 SC (SC= "seconde central")

*The specifications of these watches had been defined by the „Reichsluftfahrtministerium" (RLM) - Imperial Air Ministry. *

All 5 manufacturers fitted the bill.

Due to those specifications all B-watches had the following features in common:

- A case diameter of 55 mm 
- Marked on the back with FL 23883 (FL = flight, 23 = navigation) 
- Equipped with large crowns in order to be used with gloves 
- Hacking movement (the second hand stops when pulling out the crown / essential for a precise time setting) 
- Breguet balance spring 
- Regulated and tested as chronometers 
- Long leather strap (to be worn on the sleeve of a flight jacket).

There have been two different types of dials:

Type A (Baumuster A) from 1940 to January 1941
a classic dial with numerals 1 to 11 and the triangle with two dots at 12

Type B (Baumuster B) starting in January 1941
Big minute numerals from 5 to 55 and a small inner circle with numerals for h, at the position of 60 min a triangle and a line on its top.

If your are interested in watches of WW II and their history I recommend to visit the hompage of Konrad Knirim. He wrote a book on "Military Timepieces".


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## bydandie (Mar 12, 2008)

stuffler said:


> Would you mind to provide more info in that ? I am not aware that IWC was subcontracted by Laco/Stowa :think:


Hi Mike, I may have got that wrong or misunderstood but will try and find this - until then, I bow to you greater knowledge. 

I have already caught the bug in watches and will certainly look more into the book you mentioned when I have time (Ironic really!)

Regarding the other comments thus far, I'm an engineer not an artisan. My love of watches is from an engineer's perspective and therefore I am interested in watches that use the best engineering principles and maintain their 'personal touch'.

Saying that you can't compare IWC to Stowa because one costs more than the other doesn't really wash with me. No offence meant, but this is like saying that a Schauer watch can't be compared to a Stowa due to the differences in price but the same person with the same passion is responsible for both. I fully accept that the Schauers are a totally different class, but the MO and FO have to surely be compared to the very best of watches too.

I am ecstatic with the fact that I am getting a watch with a German silver rotor engraved with german. I also feel that the criticism that Stowa gets for being overpriced on some fora is missing the craft that goes into it - most COSC v non-COSC discussions here determine that the non-COSC are regulated to a high level which which shows that attention to detail that is employed within Joerg's factory. I will be proud to wear a watch with real history, craft and a personal touch.

All I really started this thread for was to see where IWC betters the Stowa. If it's on the quality, movements and accuracy then fine, but if it's the decoration of the movements that sets it apart then it's less of an issue to me.


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

Just a few points as I understand them, Stowa purchases the entire movement from ETA, and it is a 2824. IWC uses a 2892 and does not purchase the entire movement they purchase a kit and replace the following:

_IWC uses a 2892 KIT -- not an assembled ebauche. They take this kit and replace parts or use parts of their own design to meet their own specifications for tolerance and strength. These include: 
_
the gear train 
wheels and levers 
mainspring and barrel 
a 21 K gold mass is added to the rotor for winding efficiency 
all parts are finished and assembled by hand ​the 2892 ius already considered a better movement than the 2824 in most circles. When IWC is done very little of the base 2892 kit remains


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

http://www.time2watch.net/IWCmovt.htm see for more info


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

as to the question of comparing the two, it's like comparing a Corvette and a Ferrari, the Corvette is a wonderful sportscar and a better value than a Ferrari, but it's still a Corvette. The Stowa all things considered is probably a better value, but IWC IMO is the better watch. 

P.S.

I own an IWC GST Chrono, so I'm biased.


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

Completely different price range and therefore unfair to compare imho. 

Stowa makes a wonderful watch considering their pricing structure.


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## twigfarm (Oct 22, 2006)

caesarmascetti said:


> Just a few points as I understand them, Stowa purchases the entire movement from ETA, and it is a 2824. IWC uses a 2892 and does not purchase the entire movement they purchase a kit and replace the following:
> 
> _IWC uses a 2892 KIT -- not an assembled ebauche. They take this kit and replace parts or use parts of their own design to meet their own specifications for tolerance and strength. These include: _
> the gear train
> ...


If IWC is buying the kits from ETA, then they're going to have a problem in 2010 because it's the kits that ETA will no longer make available to outside manufacturers.

Either IWC will have to buy completed movements from ETA and THEN modify them or have made other arrangements with another supplier.

Re: Comparing an IWC to a STOWA: I've owned the original IWC UTC (black dial) and I own a Stowa Airman automatic. All I can say is the IWC was much more "substantial" - more weight & metal & made the Stowa feel like a light-weight in comparison. Keep in mind I have not seen the new Stowa FO in the metal so I don't know how that compares to the Airman Auto. Anyone out there able to do THAT comparison? How does the FO compare with the Airman automatic in build-quality, size, weight, etc.?










Dave


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## mmaddux (Dec 3, 2007)

I think it's perfectly reasonable and fair to compare ANY two watches. If a person is going to spend 10 x more on one watch rather than another, I would think that he would have to have a pretty good idea why he was spending that extra money. The reasons would of course be different from person to person but they would certainly relate to real qualities in the watches.

As an aside, I think it's also quite reasonable to compare apples and oranges.

For example, "I crave a fruit, and we only have apples and oranges. I'm in a hurry so I'll choose an apple because _apples are easier to eat than oranges_.'

Mike


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## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

That's not true, actually--oranges are easier to eat because you don't have a core left over at the end to worry about :-! (yes, I eat the orange peel too).

IWC has more finishing details that go into the cases. They replace, rebuild and decorate/finish the movements. Stowa does some decoration on movements, and that distinguishes them from many, many other watches (many of which cost more), but they do not rebuild/replace parts of the eubache. *Decoration/finishing matters for longevity of wear when done on certain parts of the movement.*

Stowa is now using extremely high quality hands and dials--they are so fine, in fact, that they seem better than the IWC Flieger hands and dials (and more appealing to me). Stowa also uses first rate cases, but they do not make them themselves, and they differ in how they work/finish them.

I'd love to know how the FO compares to the IWC UTC, since I was choosing between the two...

Daniel


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## Capt. Canuck (Nov 10, 2006)

I considered both the IWC Mk XVI and the Stowa FO and in the end I chose the Stowa.

Pricing wasn't a consideration - in the end I found the Stowa to be a more interesting and attractive timepiece, and I don't regret my decision one bit. |>

Besides, one can always pick up a Mk XVI, but the FO is likely to be one of the most sought after (and rarest) Stowas for years to come.


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## Rebreather (Sep 15, 2006)

I think it is very hard to decide, because they are just too different. I currently own two Stowas, the MO and the FO, I love those watches, and I think they are great value for the money. I personally do not believe there is anything comparable in the same price bracket, they are a great buy, and I will have zero doubt in recommending the Stowa watches to anyone. 

Now, when it comes to IWC, I currently own six with one more on order. Four are fliegers, including the Exupery Power Reserve, Ceramic Doppel LE, Big Pilot, and an original B-Uhr. Many of IWC's enhancements have already been discussed here so I won't repeat. But the comparison between a Ferrari to a Corvette is a great analogy. Much of it is in the subtle refinement, just try winding a Big Pilot and compared to a MO/FO (which winds the same), pull out the crown and adjust the time and see how the hands follow your movement, and most importantly, rate consistence. FO is still in run-in mode, but I am already seeing some very serious rate deviation between resting on a desk or while being worn (gains moderately while at rest - about +4/day, and lost time quite significantly while being worn -6/day). I hope it will improve over time, and I do hope other owners are faring better, as this type of behavior often would require more than a simple regulations. The MO is better, but the deviation is still there. It could very well be a charateristics of the base Unitas movement, but I don't have anything with the same movement to compare to. 

For the IWC, all five (I discounted the B-Uhr since it is not a current production model) have very consistent rate behavior, althought they tend to run a little fast, but the gain is consistent and can be easily regulated.

The strap is day and night, like shoping at Tiffany vs. K-Mart. It is by far the biggest weakness for Stowa and also the one easiest to fix with $200.

The MO dial is OK, but the FO dial is beautiful even under a loupe, simple, plain but high grade. IWC dial are very well made, with significantly details to attention, especially if you look under a loupe. Unfortunately, many of these details are not obvious under a casual glance. But the St. Exupery, even under unaided eye, will show a clear difference.

Then don't forget the crystal, Stowa being untreated, and all IWC being anti-glare on both sides. All IWCs are all with screwed-in crowns to provide higher water and dust resistance, which is missing under the Stowa. 

Then there is the anti-magnetic soft iron cage in the IWC which is missing in Stowa (you gain a display back as a result). 

Then listen to how the watch ticks, all IWCs I own seems to be bathed in Teflon, quiet, smooth, more refine. Unlike the more mechanical and distinct ticks in the Stowa.

Then look at the polished/brushed cases in the IWC, compared to the simpler all brushed cases in the Stowa, check how every edge/corners are finished (sharp vs. smoothed). 

Now, if you consider the purchase price alone, is it worth 5X - 10X? Then it is really up to your value system, and how important these refinements are to you. For many, it is just not worth it, for others, they would think the delta is reasonable.

Then there is the cost, IWC are a lot higher to start out, but the cost of ownership is low if you ever decide to trade. My AD reserves the first of any newly announced IWC flieger/diver for me (often the only piece they will receive). But at current market price for used IWCs, I will make money off every piece if I ever decide to sell them (they are all in my permanent collection). I don't follow the second hand market on Stowa, so I can't really compare them when it comes to the cost of ownership.

So at the end, I think they both deserve a spot in one's collection. I will not hesitate to recommend either brand.


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

mmaddux said:


> For example, "I crave a fruit, and we only have apples and oranges. I'm in a hurry so I'll choose an apple because _apples are easier to eat than oranges_.'
> 
> Mike


I like to give you the car analogy of a BMW vs. Honda. Both perform the same task of taking one from point A to point B. Not the same price range. Comparable outright? No way! Both are nice cars but compete for different buyers. Not comparable.

This analogy topic can go on forever. o|


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## bydandie (Mar 12, 2008)

Rebreather said:


> I think it is very hard to decide, because they are just too different. I currently own two Stowas, the MO and the FO, I love those watches, and I think they are great value for the money. I personally do not believe there is anything comparable in the same price bracket, they are a great buy, and I will have zero doubt in recommending the Stowa watches to anyone. ....
> 
> So at the end, I think they both deserve a spot in one's collection. I will not hesitate to recommend either brand.


Thanks rebreather, I appreciate the time you've taken to respond. Maybe I need to justify the price tag to get an IWC then (I was looking to break the bank for the Omega Moonwatch in four years time for my 40th maybe the IWC needs consideration too!)


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

What kind of strap would you like to see on your FO? I just received my FO and like the straps, but am always open for options.


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## Peter Atwood (Feb 16, 2006)

I've got a very special IWC coming next week so that will make for an interesting comparison...  I still stick to my guns that the Stowa FO is in many ways as nice as my IWC chrono.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2008)

Peter Atwood said:


> I've got a very special IWC coming next week so that will make for an interesting comparison...  I still stick to my guns that the Stowa FO is in many ways as nice as my IWC chrono.


So you made the deal ? Great, congrats.


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## Peter Atwood (Feb 16, 2006)

Uh oh, BUSTED! :-d Hehe, thanks Mike, I had forgotten that I mentioned you as a possible reference to the guy. I hope you didn't tell him I was a deadbeat...LOL. ;-)

I'm scrambling around right now looking for some stuff to cull to help offset this one. :think:


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

I look forward to this special IWC.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

How about MO vs. FA Jones? :-d

Cheers,
Bhanu


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## Rebreather (Sep 15, 2006)

hotnerd, I have the FA Jones too, it just so happens that it and the FO are currently out of the vault and in their two week rotation. 

In this case, I would say absolutely no comparison. Movement, case, dial, strap, overall finish, and accuracy are all superior in the FA Jones. Now, is it worth 10x the price? It depends on whether those attributes are important to you, and how you place a value on them. 

I love my MO, I was one of the first owner to obtain one with a brushed case. If you search the archive from about 18 months ago, I had pictures of both watches side by side. The FA Jones has such a classical wrist presence that it really belong to a different class. But it also limits its practicality, it belongs with dinner jackets, suits, and tux, or at least a fine sport jacket. I tried wearing it with short sleeve shirts and polo in the summer, it just does not work for me. It's like driving around in a Vantage in shorts and t-shirt.

On the other hand, if I feel like dressing casual, the MO will feel right at home. It is perhaps the more versatile of the two. Goes great with jeans and short sleeve. I would freely admit there is no other watch in its price range that remotely come close to the MO when it comes to finish, and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone, especially the fourth class midshipman equivalent in the mechanical watch collection world. It is a great place to begin building a meaningful collection over time.


bydandie asked a question about the Speedmaster Pro vs. IWC Flieger. I own the Speedmaster Pro as well. Being American, it means a great deal to me to wear the same watch Buzz and Neil used in the lunar landing (although they were using the 60's version, which has a different dial and movement, but NASA later certified the current version for later Apollo/shuttle missions). I met Jim Lovell, a Naval Academy grad, he was in Apollo XIII, and they used the Speedmaster to time the thruster burn while the computer was down, and the SMP brought them home alive. No watch in history (at least in my mind), comes close to the SMP when it comes to historical significance. 

The SMP has such a classical styling, rock solid performance and durability, it is one of my most favorite regardless of price range. So if I were to compare between IWC and SMP, I would recommend you to buy the SMP without the slightest hesitation. IWC are nice to have, but I consider the SMP a must have. You can always buy an IWC later.

thodgins asked about the strap, I like FO's strap design, very close to the original B-Uhr design, but the quality of the material can be better. I replaced my MO strap immediately, but I have yet found a high quality strap for the FO as none offers the metal loop found in the FO strap. I have to check with the guy who recreated the original strap in my B-Uhr to see if he can custom make a strap for the FO (need to look up his name again, it has been a couple years, he is from Germany).


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## Peter Atwood (Feb 16, 2006)

Jurgen?


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

Let me know what you find out. I would love to have one made with buffalo leather. I really like the buffalo straps that IWC uses for the BP and the St. Exupery watches.


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## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

HKtan (Aaron Tan) makes a strap that appears identical to the IWC buffalo BP strap. Not certain of the quality, not having one myself, but it looks first-rate.

Cheers,
Daniel


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## kris (Feb 12, 2006)

I have the Pilot buffalo (and the Pilot gator) from HKTan and it is absolutely a perfect match. I'll take som pics tomorrow and post them here.


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## neju (Oct 14, 2006)

kris said:


> I have the Pilot buffalo (and the Pilot gator) from HKTan and it is absolutely a perfect match. I'll take som pics tomorrow and post them here.


Hi,

i`ve mounted a BOB Buffalo pilot. Suits the wath perfect in my opinion.
Thick and a realy nice colour. Just try www.waccex.de
Christian is a real fix guy, just call him for special wishes.



Greetings

Frank


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## kris (Feb 12, 2006)

Here are the pics of the HKTan Gator and Buffalo...
strapsize = 22mm and buckle size = 20mm and creme stitching.


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## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

Outstanding, Kris! Those straps look really terrific on the FO. I think I need to get one in buffalo--did HKTan have them made or were they special order? The Stowa buckle works perfectly with them too.


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## kris (Feb 12, 2006)

Hi expwmbat,

I don't know if Aaron is the king strapmaker himself but it looks like he can realise some very nice straps. Give him the right measurements and he can make it.

example: http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x47/99Reza/BRHKTAN.jpg


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

Those look awesome. I had contacted him awhile back about doing a strap for me but wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I like both of them. What colors did you specify for both straps and what is the measurement of your straps?

I really like those.


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## kris (Feb 12, 2006)

Hi Thodgins,

I contacted him after seeing this post. The straps have only one color, brown. The buffalo is much darker. Maybe Aaron will make it flashy purple with yellow dots if you ask him.:think:

Because I have a rather small wrist (6,9") I ask for a 120mm long side and a 75mm short side. (80mm is ok also)


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

I was shown a similar post. I really like the gator.


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## kris (Feb 12, 2006)

found another link with more options for the Pilot strap **here**


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