# E.O.L. already on my V.H.P.!



## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

I just got back from a ten day Christmas vacation. While I was gone, my VHP (which I purchased back in November) went into E.O.L. mode (second hand ticks every FIVE seconds). I am not a happy camper. I'll be contacting Longines about this next week and I'll post updates back here.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

I just unpacked my suitcase and took the watch out of my travel watch case. Now it's in E.O.E. mode (all hands at 12 o'clock--except the second hand didn't make it; it's at 11:57). They either put in a defective battery at the factory, or there is something seriously wrong with the movement and it's drawing a ton of juice that has killed the battery.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

Bummer. I hate to say it but I'm guessing it's the movement is bad. Can you return it to the dealer for replacement? 

I've never had a battery that's lacking life out of the box, in particular the one from the factory since they use ones that are really fresh due to the volumes involved.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Back to the AD and maybe factory. Too soon for this sort of problem.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

Definitely back to the dealer. If they can check the current draw readily, they can probably ID if it's in the movement or the battery. No idea if that's feasible. If they can't firmly determine it is the movement, I suspect they'll just replace, so they can fix the problem from your persective in a timely manner, and not have this problem repeat in 4 months. 

If it's any consolation, I was only able to wear my gorgeous little Nomos Tangente Sport 2-3 times before...BOOM!!! It stopped dead. Turned out the pallet wheel went south. Purchased new through AD. So...bad stuff happens to good product, sometimes.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Doesn't sound too good. I see on the original thread that DaveM posted a picture of the interior of his new watch. Probably a good idea for the rest of us to resist the temptation to invalidate our warranties for a while.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

chris01 said:


> Doesn't sound too good. I see on the original thread that DaveM posted a picture of the interior of his new watch. Probably a good idea for the rest of us to resist the temptation to invalidate our warranties for a while.


I believe the warranty is invalidated only if you post the evidence on-line ;-)


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Tom-HK said:


> I believe the warranty is invalidated only if you post the evidence on-line ;-)


I didn't know you were a lawyer (liar?).
Anyone have Walter von Känel's email address so we can ask him?


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

You really have it in for ol' Walt, don't you Chris? :-d


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

chris01 said:


> I didn't know you were a lawyer (liar?).
> Anyone have Walter von Känel's email address so we can ask him?


Ok, I probably should have added "don't take seriously the advice of someone who has invalidated more warranties than he has had watches".


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

tmathes said:


> You really have it in for ol' Walt, don't you Chris? :-d


No, I think he's very appealing; an alternative 'character' to Biver. He certainly has the best eyebrows in the business.
It does seem to me that some of the lower orders in Longines need a poke with a sharp stick.


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

Tom-HK said:


> I believe the warranty is invalidated only if you post the evidence on-line ;-)


I cannot see a serial # in my picture, so perhaps I will get away with it !


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Should not be posting images with serial numbers.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

chris01 said:


> No, I think he's very appealing; an alternative 'character' to Biver. He certainly has the best eyebrows in the business.* It does seem to me that some of the lower orders in Longines need a poke with a sharp stick.*


:-d Yep.

When you said "sharp stick" this came to mind:


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

tmathes said:


> :-d Yep.
> 
> When you said "sharp stick" this came to mind:


When some maniac comes at you with a cheap quartz watch, release the Biver!
Having watched all this stuff when it was new, it's great to be reminded of the inventive silliness of it all.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

I used the online form at the Longines web site today to request their pre-paid return packaging for warranty service. Let's see how that goes...


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

I got this e-mail from Longines this morning:


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

Nice!! Maybe Swatch service is getting better. :-! I'm also assuming since you're an early adopter of new tech the last thing they wanted was bad mouthing to get out.

Or maybe Walter got tired of hearing Chris talking about his eyebrows and wanted it all to stop.....


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

The return mailer came today with a pre-paid FedEx label. They sent a very nice and sturdy box with a dense foam insert with a cutout for the watch.

So, I packed up the VHP this afternoon and dropped it off at FedEx. Now the waiting...


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Got this e-mail from Longines today:


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## Mkart31 (Oct 9, 2016)

It seems like the Longines customer service is a top notch. Hopefully they will get repaired in no time.


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

My experience with Swatch group service is that now is when the trouble starts.
It is usually at least a month of waiting and even then you can’t be sure that it is going to be ok...
But let’s not get angry before there is reason to. They might be better in the US and/or have improved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Update:


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

Bump for any updates?


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

gaijin said:


> Bump for any updates?


Haven't heard from them. Still waiting...


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Update:


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

Wonder if they'll tell you the parts they replaced.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Got this e-mail from Longines this morning:


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

GMF said:


> Got this e-mail from Longines this morning:
> 
> View attachment 12892315


Thats the swatch group service we know...
Well, at least they informed you about the delay, that is a step forward.

Feel sorry for you GMF.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

GMF, did you buy it from an AD? If so, get them involved. I've bought several watches from Topper Jewelers over the years, Rob's told me to send watches to him if they go bad in the warranty period, not to Swatch directly since he can rattle some cages if necessary. Assuming you used an AD you can do the same?


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

tmathes said:


> GMF, did you buy it from an AD? If so, get them involved. I've bought several watches from Topper Jewelers over the years, Rob's told me to send watches to him if they go bad in the warranty period, not to Swatch directly since he can rattle some cages if necessary. Assuming you used an AD you can do the same?


I agree. By putting themselves out for customers AD can still survive in this networked age.
When I bought my VHP the AD asked the Longines rep about the manual, and e-mailed me a copy.

But how about Longines ? Is their marketing department not aware of social media ?
If you google 'VHP quartz' their watch and this forum appear near the top.

For a new product from a prestige brand good customer-service is essential. Especially when the customer in question is reporting their performance on a widely read forum.

I bet that there is some guy in Longines pulling tails. But 
a) The 'brand ambassador gravy-train' probably has a louder voice
b) Swatch service probably has a life of its own even if Longines wanted to pull the stops out.
It is very sad. Being a prestige brand is a very good way to make money, bad service slowly errodes the prestige until at some point recovery is almost impossible


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

"Brand Ambassadors" is THE biggest waste of money imaginable.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

tmathes said:


> "Brand Ambassadors" is THE biggest waste of money imaginable.


Most of the time.

I'd argue Roger Federer is an exception, all things considered.

I took a stab that Longines would show a more dress-oriented VHP at Baselworld. I'm never gonna be interested in one of the current lines; if they can come up with a better looking package...well, ok, probably not even then.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Got this e-mail this morning:


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

GMF said:


> Got this e-mail this morning:
> 
> View attachment 12978403


Well that stinks. My guess? The movement can't be serviced so they're waiting to getting a completely new movement. Or, replace the watch completely. Again, just speculation.

Still, 4 freakin' months? Lovely. This is the kind of garbage I despise about so many company's "customer service". It's also the reason I won't send my Certina DS-2 to attempt getting tighter than +24 sec/yr. It's not worth risking a third of a year without it to

1) have it come back no better than before, or

2) them making something worse (badly misaligned hands, gouges in the case/dial, smudges under the crystal, something as bad or worse)


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

GMF said:


> Got this e-mail this morning:
> 
> View attachment 12978403


Thanks for the update, but I'm very sorry for you when I read this.

One would think, with a new watch model, which failed so soon after purchase, at some point it would make sense for them to simply apologize and offer you a new replacement watch.

Hoping for you that their "very best" turns out to be better in the future than it has proven to be so far.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Four months is ridiculous for a new model. Maybe there are planning a movement replacement?


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## jtscottUM (May 18, 2017)

Any update on this? Just got a VHP - now I'm worried


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Update:


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

@GMF, thanks for the update. Any idea what exactly they are doing as a service?


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

From service approved to starting service is three months. Quick customer service is obviously not in Swatch's vocabulary.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

gaijin said:


> @GMF, thanks for the update. Any idea what exactly they are doing as a service?


This isn't directed at you, it's directed at the repair.

Who the bloody heck CARES what they have to do?????

Four months is execrable. The steps in that timeline are unconscionable...6 weeks between "OK, yes we'll work on it" and ordering the parts? 8 weeks to get the parts in and start the repair?

This feels like arriving back in college. Wait in line to get your schedule. Wait in line to pay required fees. Wait in line to buy books. Each step completely separate queues and you're always at the back.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

Or maybe getting food at a sporting event. One line for beer. Another line for dogs. Another for pretzels. And we won't even TALK about the line for the restrooms.

Man, now I'm getting grumpy. 

I'll leave now. Night.


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

gangrel said:


> This isn't directed at you, it's directed at the repair.
> 
> Who the bloody heck CARES what they have to do?????


While I fully agree with you that the repair is taking too long (and have clearly stated this sentiment in my earlier post in this thread), I do care very much what the repair details are.

My original suspicion was that they were simply going to replace the battery and return the original watch, but as time went on, it was less probable that this would be the case - although I'm still not ruling out that possibility.

My next thought was that they would replace the entire movement because that would be the most expeditious in the case of a quartz movement, but again, as time went on this is looking less probable - but still possible.

However unlikely, it still remains a possibility that they would attempt a movement repair with just parts. This would help understand the extended time required for the "service," but does not make much sense to me. Even if the manufacturer were using this field failure - i.e. premature E.O.L. indicator - as a case study, it would still make good business sense to expeditiously replace the entire movement and then research the root cause of the failure in house at a more leisurely pace.

So, I guess I "bloody heck CARE" which service route is taken as it will be an excellent indicator of the level of service one might expect going forward.

HTH


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## Bender.Folder (Sep 16, 2014)

Tudor policy of exchanging the movement with a ready to mount one and then search failure on the one who is sent back makes things faster indeed .

I'd imagined the same way for a quartz watch, swap battery or movement and then explore why it did consume so much battery in such a short time frame. 

On the other hand if they planned parts to fix the movement it might be a good sign it can be repaired and it isnt just a replaceable piece thrown in the bin once its due for servicing.


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

QUOTE
The estimated date of completion for this service is 11th May

*Unbelievable customer-care incompetence !*
11th January >> Received
22nd January >> Had a look at it (and decided what had to be done ?) >>> 11 days
26th January >> Getting my boss to approve the repair and order the spare parts >>> 4 days
12th March >> Waiting for the spare parts >>> 45 days
2nd May >> Waiting for somebody to do the repair >> 51 days
11th May >> Carrying out the repair and testing (we hope) >> 9 days

It should not take 45 days to obtain spare parts.
It should not take 51 days to find a service-slot.
And after these two protracted processes how can they say :-
*This date may be revised based on spare parts availability and service capacity at the time of approval.

*Perhaps their service-manager was trained by the Trabant motor-company !


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

[QUOTE=gaijin
My original suspicion was that they were simply going to replace the battery and return the original watch, but as time went on, it was less probable that this would be the case - although I'm still not ruling out that possibility.

Perhaps when combined with the previous manual-performance it all makes sense.
>> US service office have no information, ask Swiss for a replacement movement or watch
>> Swiss take 45 days and sends them a spare movement
>> US service office have no information, ask Swiss how to fit movement and check it out
>> Swiss take 51 days to send them a manual
>> US service office will have a go, but still a bit nervous


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Why should it take about a month just to flash firmware on a B55?


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

DaveM said:


> gaijin
> My original suspicion was that they were simply going to replace the battery and return the original watch said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

ronalddheld said:


> Why should it take about a month just to flash firmware on a B55?


Because service is an afterthought. That's the only reason I can come up with.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

DaveM said:


> Perhaps their service-manager was trained by the Trabant motor-company !


I couldn't stop laughing at that line!


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

gaijin said:


> So, I guess I "bloody heck CARE" which service route is taken as it will be an excellent indicator of the level of service one might expect going forward.


I hear ya but, don't we already have that answer?

Terrible.

As DaveM also points out, the couple days to diagnose, then couple weeks to fix (which may include testing)...that's not so bad. The total killer is the 3 months where it sat. I can't see how the service route influences that.

And part of this is, well, they're never going to tell us why these delays had to happen. We MIGHT get a repair actions taken; I got one from Nomos when my Tangente Sport needed warranty service. Still, why did it take so long to order parts? Why did it take so long for the repair to start? Those are the things they'll never tell us. At best, a complaint might get an "oh, I'm sorry it took so long. We will look into it" canned response.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

tmathes said:


> - Swatch (and the Swiss watch industry in general) absolutely fails in every way when it comes to customer support, from warranty service to just documentation on their web sites. Customer support and timely repairs appear to be complete after-thoughts, or better yet, zero thoughts.
> 
> What a way to shoot yourself in the head. Brilliant business model, especially in a declining market.


I'll offer a slightly different argument.

Their service processes may be tied to mechanicals, not quartz. The two are totally different. With a mechanical, where you can disassemble and generally visually inspect, failure analysis is part of customer service and repair. With quartz, there can be relatively simple stuff you can test, especially in the power area, but you can't feasibly disassemble, inspect and test, and replace. Failure analysis becomes an engineering department issue; it's an aspect of ongoing quality control and product development. (Mechanical failures do this too, but it's secondary.)

Granted, this is still not customer-centric. As was pointed out, customer-centric is to replace, unless that in itself is not practical...high complications, high-end finishing, that sort of thing. And there are companies moving in this direction...but it is slow. Combine Swiss reticence with very large corporation inertia, and change takes place on a geological time scale.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

gaijin said:


> @GMF, thanks for the update. Any idea what exactly they are doing as a service?


No, not on the customer portal. Maybe when I finally get the watch back they will have a report included as to what was done.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

gangrel said:


> I'll offer a slightly different argument.
> 
> Their service processes may be tied to mechanicals, not quartz. The two are totally different. With a mechanical, where you can disassemble and generally visually inspect, failure analysis is part of customer service and repair. With quartz, there can be relatively simple stuff you can test, especially in the power area, but you can't feasibly disassemble, inspect and test, and replace. Failure analysis becomes an engineering department issue; it's an aspect of ongoing quality control and product development. (Mechanical failures do this too, but it's secondary.)
> 
> Granted, this is still not customer-centric. As was pointed out, customer-centric is to replace, unless that in itself is not practical...high complications, high-end finishing, that sort of thing. And there are companies moving in this direction...but it is slow. Combine Swiss reticence with very large corporation inertia, and change takes place on a geological time scale.


I don't think that's really true. Go over to the Omega forum and peruse the number of horror stores from "factory service". It'll make you cringe.

A quartz should be vastly easier to service than any mechanical, the "repair" is just a sub-set of a mechanical repair:

- open case back
- remove stem
- pop out the movement
- remove the hands/dial
- swap movement (these movements are so cheap they're often just not work repairing and if they are, simple swap of modules)
- reverse from "remove the hands/dial"

I've even capable of that (and have done it, just the movement swap). It's not so much the US center sometimes as the complete lack of caring from HQ to supply parts or even product.

Case in point: I've ordered two Swatch Group watches for my wife from a well respected AD (and WUS forum sponsor), he delivered exactly on-time and with great service after the sale (and glad I went to an AD, which is why I go to him first). One was an Aqua Terra with a coax movement (lady's 30mm, 8502 movement), one was a Longines Master Collection. The AT was defective out of the box for crying out loud, the rotor was spinning like a top when you hand wound it. It was such a brazen defect it was pathetic, for what is a $5.5k watch. The Longines had so much "schmutz" on the hands it was inexcusable. It took Longines THREE MONTHS, for a freakin' watch that had been in production for YEARS to get the AD a replacement. The damned thing was easily available via the gray market it was easy to find. What kind of "service" is that and quality? Once you get one that's spot on their watches are great.

My own experience is spotty too with Swatch initial quality for what I buy for me. I had a Certina DS-2 (again, from an AD) that our own Chris, when I showed him via a PM how the hands were assembled said the alignment was so bad that it looked like a "drunk one-armed watchmaker" assembled it (Chris, you kill me!!).

All of this is simple stuff that Timex gets right time and time again for $50, Swatch just doesn't seem to care.

Like I said, why I keep coming back is their designs are too often hard for me to resist (for my taste that is), reliability is good but initial quality and "customer service" is the pits. That's gonna cost them in the end.


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

This thread brings me back on memory lane and all the troubles I had with Swatch Group service of a couple of Certinas.
Makes me absolutely furious. 

Really sorry to read this GMF.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

That's the first repair estimate I've seen that details time at each step. Boiled down it says their parts and repair system is backed up for months. This is unfortunately common. My Zenith was in service for 6 months. 

Watch companies are focused on producing, distributing and selling new watches. Parts and service are a much lower priority and funded accordingly. Probably seen as a cost center rather than support for sales. Imagine how long a car brand would last if all cars were kept for months at a time awaiting parts and a slot in the repair process.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

tmathes said:


> My own experience is spotty too with Swatch initial quality for what I buy for me. I had a Certina DS-2 (again, from an AD) that our own Chris, when I showed him via a PM how the hands were assembled said the alignment was so bad that it looked like a "drunk one-armed watchmaker" assembled it (Chris, you kill me!!).


Now, the full quote was "a blind one-armed watchmaker's apprentice after a heavy night on the town", hoping I don't offend any less abled or alcoholic members of the forum. 

I've had mixed experience with Swatch group. My DS-2 chrono was a very early model, the first reported on this forum, and I have had absolutely nothing to complain about, and fortunately no need for service. In spite of it being rather large and heavy, compared to my other watches, it's my most frequent wear, and runs well within Certina's "10 SPY when worn daily" spec.

My wife's Conquest VHP ran at +5 last year, then suddenly went mad at -690 (-2 SPD). Looked like an electronic failure, as it was running perfectly smoothly, except for the rate. I sent it to Longines/Swatch service, expecting them to say sorry it's too old to fix. But no, they gave it a full service (not quite sure what that meant) and it came back still at exactly -690. After a conversation with a very helpful guy they had another go and it returned with what I think is a complete new movement, running around +10, but a bit hard to be exact as we're having an unexpected very hot spell. So they never even tested it the first time but did a grand job on the next try. One additional benefit is that the second hand is now consistently close to the markers while it used to skip around them.

The 2017 VHP is another, complicated, story as I'm now on my second watch. I'll report in detail if and when it gets resolved. My current view, in spite of the happy users reporting here, is that I wouldn't buy another and I wouldn't recommend it to anybody.


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

As said by tmathes, to repair a quartz 99% of the times replacing the whole movement is the best thing to do. It saves a lot of time, you don't need to understand the failure and you need minimum work to get the watch working properly again.

It happened to me too with my Certina: they just replaced the original module with a new one and the watch was fixed quickly.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

chris01 said:


> Now, the full quote was "a blind one-armed watchmaker's apprentice after a heavy night on the town", hoping I don't offend any less abled or alcoholic members of the forum.
> 
> I've had mixed experience with Swatch group. My DS-2 chrono was a very early model, the first reported on this forum, and I have had absolutely nothing to complain about, and fortunately no need for service. In spite of it being rather large and heavy, compared to my other watches, it's my most frequent wear, and runs well within Certina's "10 SPY when worn daily" spec.
> 
> ...


Thanks for correcting me Chris. I didn't dig up our exchange to put in the exact quote. The actual reply was much funnier and colorful than I remember!

Your experience with Longines and mine with Certina is similar, their claimed accuracy ain't all that. Neither of my two DSxx models is close to the claimed spec, even if I wore it each day it wouldn't hit it. I still think it's due to them not being good at trimming parts, their manufacturing processes are sloppy by today's standards. They could take a page from Citizen or Seiko in this regard.

My experience with both of the big Japanese brands, especially Citizen, is a whole lot nicer in terms of product initial quality and after-sales support than Swatch Group. Their designs? Well, not as classy and timeless like so many designs from Swatch, hence why I keep coming back (but timidly and with GREAT caution).


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## DaveM (Aug 9, 2008)

tmathes said:


> Your experience with Longines and mine with Certina is similar, their claimed accuracy ain't all that. Neither of my two DSxx models is close to the claimed spec, even if I wore it each day it wouldn't hit it. I still think it's due to them not being good at trimming parts, their manufacturing processes are sloppy by today's standards.
> 
> I cannot believe that a competent organisation cannot precisely trim an (inhibition rate-adjustment) quartz-watch during the manufacturing process.
> I think that the main problem is that they use an 'average' thermal correction rather than a correction measured for each watch.
> ...


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

DaveM said:


> I cannot believe that a competent organisation cannot precisely trim an (inhibition rate-adjustment) quartz-watch during the manufacturing process.
> I think that the main problem is that they use an 'average' thermal correction rather than a correction measured for each watch.
> After the watch has been trimmed on the production-line it is probably within 1spy at 26.0C, but 6 months later in your house at 20C it may be 7spy.
> 
> ...


Try 25 seconds per year out of the box (watch gained 2 seconds in it's first month, after 1 year it was at 25 sec). The other Precidrive Certina was 18 sec/yr out of the box. At least there's no other issue so I won't send them in for repair. They were consistent month after month at least, which told me they were just improperly trimmed. And if their US$1000 Longines can't hit the specs they claim on unit after unit then they are not a competent organization, at that price point customers demand that attention to detail and deserve it. Or, rather, their spec is, ahem, bull "hockey".

If I want true sub 20 second/yr precision I will look to Seiko or Citizen. I still like the Certina designs though and 25 sec/yr is good enough for me. But, they're definitely not as accurate as any of the 262kHz Bulovas I own that are less than 1/2 to 1/3rd the price. As I said, Citizen at least can trim a watch as evidenced by the 4 Bulovas I own.

In my opinion, if the Bulovas are discounted for not being HAQ since they're not T/C and not consistent in their accuracy unit after unit then neither can anything from ETA. They may be T/C but they're not consistent in how they're adjusted from the factory.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

DaveM said:


> I cannot believe that a competent organisation cannot precisely trim an (inhibition rate-adjustment) quartz-watch during the manufacturing process.
> I think that the main problem is that they use an 'average' thermal correction rather than a correction measured for each watch.
> After the watch has been trimmed on the production-line it is probably within 1spy at 26.0C, but 6 months later in your house at 20C it may be 7spy.
> 
> ...


That's precisely what it's about. What does this do to production rates and times?

Are you going to trim before or after pre-aging, too? Are you running the individual TC curves before or after aging? How are you going to ensure that the right TC curve is burned into the firmware with the right quartz crystal?

At the very least, I'm hearing significant additional complexity in the manufacturing processes, which translates into a higher manufacturing cost and a more expensive piece. And for what? People don't beat the doors down to get COSC-level accuracy, much less 5 SPY.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

gangrel said:


> That's precisely what it's about. What does this do to production rates and times?
> 
> Are you going to trim before or after pre-aging, too? Are you running the individual TC curves before or after aging? How are you going to ensure that the right TC curve is burned into the firmware with the right quartz crystal?
> 
> At the very least, I'm hearing significant additional complexity in the manufacturing processes, which translates into a higher manufacturing cost and a more expensive piece. And for what? People don't beat the doors down to get COSC-level accuracy, much less 5 SPY.


You're not off target but if Longines claim 5 sec/year accuracy and charging $1000+ you better be doing the TC curves at least on each unit. If not, then take the claim off all marketing and owner's manuals. Don't claim it if you can't back it up and produce it time after time.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

tmathes said:


> You're not off target but if Longines claim 5 sec/year accuracy and charging $1000+ you better be doing the TC curves at least on each unit. If not, then take the claim off all marketing and owner's manuals. Don't claim it if you can't back it up and produce it time after time.


I see two problems with the technology (quite apart from letting Sales and Marketing get their sticky fingers on the process):

Temperature compensation, even after 34 years in Longines' case, is still not good enough to deal with varying wearing patterns and seasonal temperature variation. So keeping within the spec is damn difficult.

The removal of a simple user-accessible calibration facility in modern movements denies the user any hope of getting and keeping his watch within spec, especially when the almost inevitable ageing of the oscillator circuit sets in. As has often been observed with Swatch and other brands, sending your watch to the service department when it's out of spec is rather unlikely to yield satisfaction.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

FedEx just delivered a package from NJ. No notice was e-mailed to me from Swatch, but I'm assuming this is my watch. More later after I have time to open the box.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

The package was my VHP back from service. It appears to be working normally. No details on what they did to the movement to fix it, but the old crown and gaskets were returned, so they obviously replaced those. But there is a problem. Here is the e-mail I just sent to Swatch repair:

_I just received my VHP back from service. There is a scratch/gouge on one 
of the end links of the bracelet that was NOT there when I sent the watch to 
you. It's taken FIVE MONTHS for you to service this watch under warranty 
and get it back to me. I certainly did not expect the watch to be returned 
DAMAGED and in worse cosmetic condition than when I sent it to you. The 
watch was purchased in November of 2017 and was in like new condition when I 
sent it in for service in January of 2018.

See attached photo. I expect you to make this good by providing me with a 
new bracelet for the watch_


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

Oh man...



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodville63 (Dec 28, 2011)

GMF said:


> The package was my VHP back from service. It appears to be working normally. No details on what they did to the movement to fix it, but the old crown and gaskets were returned, so they obviously replaced those. But there is a problem.


5 months is a mystery to me - it's not as though we are talking about an old movement for which they have had to scour the planet for parts.

As for the scratch - I *was* looking at the new VHP.

Do they know you post about their shoddy service?


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

I had a long diatribe regarding Swatch Group's charade called "service" I was writing last night but deleted it before posting.

Suffice it to say

- I'm very sorry this happened to you GMF, Swatch Group proves yet again to be completely indifferent to customers. Good paying customers like you, who jumped on their newest wares like this shouldn't be treated like this, period. But it's part for Swatch Group's pitiful excuse for customer relations.

- Reinforces I made the right decision to refuse sending my two Certinas in for adjustment, your horrible experience just proved what I was afraid of happening to what were otherwise properly operating time pieces

- Swatch's repair center in NJ is incompetent and careless. Their reputation has been around for years so apparently HQ is just as incompetent and careless when it comes to service. Just check F20 (Omega forums) for the too-many-to-count horrid NJ repair experiences. Their sales department is just a lousy too.

Out of curiosity GMF, did you contact your AD to help rattle some cages? I deal with just one these days (Rob @ Topper Jewelers) for this exact reason.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

I had a long diatribe regarding Swatch Group's charade called "service" I was writing last night but deleted it before posting.

Suffice it to say

- I'm very sorry this happened to you GMF, Swatch Group proves yet again to be completely indifferent to customers. Good paying customers like you, who jumped on their newest wares like this shouldn't be treated like this, period. But it's part for Swatch Group's pitiful excuse for customer relations. :-|:-|:-|:-|:-|

- Reinforces I made the right decision to refuse sending my two Certinas in for adjustment, your horrible experience just proved what I was afraid of happening to what were otherwise properly operating time pieces.

- Swatch's repair center in NJ is incompetent and careless. Their reputation has been around for years so apparently HQ is just as incompetent and careless when it comes to service. Just check F20 (Omega forums) for the too-many-to-count horrid NJ repair experiences. Their sales department is just a lousy too.

Out of curiosity GMF, did you contact your AD to help rattle some cages? I deal with just one these days (Rob @ Topper Jewelers) for this exact reason.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

tmathes said:


> Out of curiosity GMF, did you contact your AD to help rattle some cages? I deal with just one these days (Rob @ Topper Jewelers) for this exact reason.


I ordered the watch directly from the Longines web site.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Well OP it looks like you need an end link. See if they can set you up with an AD close to you make the change. This may be a common end link used in other watches and might be a little easier to resolve.


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

For practical purposes, it could be a better option to polish the bracelet end link by yourself or by a watch service you know. Sending it back again will cost you a lot of time and you are not sure of the final result.

I am sorry to hear that from you, anyway... my experience with the Swatch service in Milan (Italy) has been very positive as documented in my thread about my Certina DS Diver.


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## GMF (Apr 30, 2005)

Here is the e-mail I got from Swatch this morning:

_We thank you for your e-mail and apologize for any continued inconvenience you have encountered.

In order to better assist you, we will proceed to issue you a FedEx label returning your timepiece to our [location] facility. Once received, we will review your concerns and contact you with further information as to our findings and how we can best assist you.

You will receive a separate e-mail with instructions for printing your label.

We await the arrival of your timepiece and should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to respond to this message.

In the meantime, we remain at your disposal for any assistance.

Sincerely,

Customer Care
Swatch Group US
Tel: 877-839-5224 
Fax: 201-558-5099_​
Here is what I sent in reply:

_Not a chance in hell I'm going to send the watch back to you so you can keep 
it another FIVE MONTHS before returning it to me. I'll just live with the 
damage you did to it. But rest assured, I will never purchase another 
Swatch product again._​
And here was there response twenty minutes later:

_I am very sorry for this experience you have endured and certainly understand your frustration. If you should change your mind in the future and would like to send it back in, please do not hesitate to contact us so we can send you a shipping label.

Sincerely,

Customer Care
Swatch Group US
Tel: 877-839-5224 
Fax: 201-558-5099
_​


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

GMF said:


> Here is the e-mail I got from Swatch this morning:
> 
> _We thank you for your e-mail and apologize for any continued inconvenience you have encountered.
> 
> ...


Why not just send you a new endlink!?

Or at least only ask for the endlink or bracelet back so you could use your watch.

Perhaps they don't want any customers....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

GMF, you know you're probably emailing with a bot. Notice no name or title on the email, just a department. Frankly you haven't made clear to them, or on this thread, what you want them to do to resolve this issue. The bot is going to do whatever they usually do. You need to make it clear with a person what you want, and discuss options to resolve it.

Me I would call that number they provided and politely explain to someone with authority, how disappointed I was with this whole process and ask for one or a couple of endlinks and a local AD who would install them, or install them myself and agree to have the AD send back the old ones, or you in a pre-posted envelope they provide. You dont need a full bracelet.

Heck if you're really angry contact sales and ask for your money back, and return the watch, that is a bigger threat

Right now all you have is a scratched watch and a threat to a bot in service (not sales) that you won't buy another watch from them. 

That scratch looked pretty deep and will be pricey and hard to polish out. End links aren't all that cheap either, but definately cheaper than a full bracelet.

But good luck.


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## Deity42 (Jan 7, 2016)

This is inexcusable.

How much money/effort/time does it take to have a supply of spares, drop an endlink in an envelope and mail it off, make arrangements with an authorized AD/watchmaker to replace the part gratis, and have some Swatch poobah write a deservedly respectful mea culpa to a customer?


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

Deity42 said:


> This is inexcusable.
> 
> How much money/effort/time does it take to have a supply of spares, drop an endlink in an envelope and mail it off, make arrangements with an authorized AD/watchmaker to replace the part gratis, and have some Swatch poobah write a deservedly respectful mea culpa to a customer?


In some ideal universe that might happen but not with any big corporation in this universe, at least none I am aware of. Especially not the mea culpa part, these big companies are never wrong. Didn't you get the memo?


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## Deity42 (Jan 7, 2016)

I'm certainly eye-level with you with big corporations, etc. But I've gotten some results from some big names when I've been properly upset enough.

What's most infuriating about this instance, though, is how outrageously boilerplate Swatches' responses are to what is a clearly wronged and unhappy customer. I read through this thread yesterday and it's obvious the OP's watch simply got dropped into their "system" without much attention paid as it went through the process. Expected that. OP was patient though, as I would have been, and in the end he was rewarded with a stiff object up the backside in the form of a damaged watch and a "Thank you come again" response.

I'm mostly appalled at how little effort it would have taken for whatever cog reading the emails to read/comprehend "oh geez, what happened here sucks and this guy is upset" and, if apparently not endowed with the agency to right the wrong himself, to at least kick it up to a superior with authority to make simple, logical decisions.

I have a bunch of Swatch Group watches that I enjoy very much, but this story terrifies me about buying anything remotely complex as a VHP and heaven forbid I have some problem with it.


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## mjb (Mar 17, 2006)

wbird said:


> Well OP it looks like you need an end link. See if they can set you up with an AD close to you make the change. This may be a common end link used in other watches and might be a little easier to resolve.


That mark seems easy to remove by a scratch pen or sand paper. It's been a lot of time/stress for the OP already. I'd suggest OP let it go and enjoy the watch instead of getting mad at Swatch group, not good for health.


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## rileynp (Mar 16, 2009)

mjb said:


> That mark seems easy to remove by a scratch pen or sand paper.


Agreed, though I understand it may be too little, too late for the OP. From here that mark looks like what can happen in the ultrasonic cleaning tank if a bracelet happens to contact another metal object (or the sides or bottom of the tank)- it creates a little mark almost like the finest of bead-blasting. This is such a simple thing to correct (5 seconds with the correct satin-finish wheel) that it is very regrettable that the service center overlooked it in their quality control. I think a local sympathetic watchmaker who does refinishing work would be able to clear this up without the need for brand new parts, with not a lot of effort.


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## MissileExpert (Mar 18, 2018)

tmathes said:


> In some ideal universe that might happen but not with any big corporation in this universe, at least none I am aware of. Especially not the mea culpa part, these big companies are never wrong. Didn't you get the memo?


Just because it's a big corporation doesn't mean poor warranty service. Apple has excellent warranty service. The company I work for is Fortune 50 and we turn around repairs for complex electronics in 12 days average. I had a Toyota pickup truck that had brake issues the first week I had it. They fixed it in 3 days, then 2 years later, as part of a recall, they installed brand new brakes again for free. Maybe they are the exception to the rule, but it's not fair to make a blanket statement about all corporations based on your experience with one of them. No excuse for Swatch's abysmal performance in your case, but don't extend that rationale to everyone.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

MissileExpert said:


> Just because it's a big corporation doesn't mean poor warranty service. Apple has excellent warranty service. The company I work for is Fortune 50 and we turn around repairs for complex electronics in 12 days average. I had a Toyota pickup truck that had brake issues the first week I had it. They fixed it in 3 days, then 2 years later, as part of a recall, they installed brand new brakes again for free. Maybe they are the exception to the rule, but it's not fair to make a blanket statement about all corporations based on your experience with one of them. No excuse for Swatch's abysmal performance in your case, but don't extend that rationale to everyone.


Lousy service from big companies is more the norm than the exception. That's been my personal experience and that of many others. Entire industires are examples of pathetic customer service:

- airline industry
- TV cable companies
- mobile phone companies (telecom in general)
- mobile manufacturers companies (Apple is the lone exception)
- PC mfrs.

That's for starters. Of course there are some big companies that are great in regards to customer relations, Apple being one of the most stellar ones. I personally dealt with Toyota and my experience was no where what yours was, after my experience I avoided anything they made at all costs.

The rule is crap service too often. The Swiss watch companies, when it comes to service, nearly as a rule come up short.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Tmathes I think listing the worst industries on the 100 list is a little misleading. There are 80 industries that do better than the ones you listed. But let's just focus on watches for a second. I never had an issue with Movado, Rolex, Tag, Cartier, Breitling, or Swatch. I could also add Assurion. 

Movado, Tag and Assurion were for repairs all others were for service. With the exception of Assurion, warranty work on auto chrono, I let my local AD either handle the service or shipping if they couldn't perform the service. Other than price and time, not many folks are complaining in big numbers. 

Bear in mind, there are a bunch of AD's authorized to perform service on all these products, and work with the brand. Including OP's watch.

As far as swatch Nj, in the NYC, NJ area we literally drop our watches off there, their not far from Newark stop on the train and no one I know had an issue with their work on their Omega, Rado, or Longines. Granted that's only about 15 or 16 people, but you would think someone would have an issue.

Like any forum the folks that have had issues will always outnumber the folks that didn't. Heck some joined the forums to complain, or because they had an issue or question.


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## kapahoo (Apr 8, 2015)

”Other than price and time”...
Those are not small stuff imho.


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## tmathes (Jan 11, 2013)

wbird said:


> Tmathes I think listing the worst industries on the 100 list is a little misleading. There are 80 industries that do better than the ones you listed. But let's just focus on watches for a second. I never had an issue with Movado, Rolex, Tag, Cartier, Breitling, or Swatch. I could also add Assurion.
> 
> Movado, Tag and Assurion were for repairs all others were for service. With the exception of Assurion, warranty work on auto chrono, I let my local AD either handle the service or shipping if they couldn't perform the service. Other than price and time, not many folks are complaining in big numbers.
> 
> ...


So you consider how Swatch NJ treated the original poster to be OK? I consider that service plain shoddy from day one.

The AD I've bought two Longines and two Omegas from recommended I avoid the NJ facility since it's given a lot of his customers problems. He recommended I send my watches to him and he'll send it to a particular Swatch facility that he has contacts with to get things taken care of.

And if you know of "a bunch of AD's" that can service Swatch products under warranty please let us know who they are. My understanding was only a Swatch facility can provide warranty service, all the AD does is send it to a particular facility.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

tmathes said:


> So you consider how Swatch NJ treated the original poster to be OK? I consider that service plain shoddy from day one.
> 
> The AD I've bought two Longines and two Omegas from recommended I avoid the NJ facility since it's given a lot of his customers problems. He recommended I send my watches to him and he'll send it to a particular Swatch facility that he has contacts with to get things taken care of.
> 
> And if you know of "a bunch of AD's" that can service Swatch products under warranty please let us know who they are. My understanding was only a Swatch facility can provide warranty service, all the AD does is send it to a particular facility.


I consider their service average. Instead of the usual 3 months to resolve it took 4 months. I've run into these kind of issues with new model cars and other products. They barely have enough product for the market, and don't have the spare parts in the supply chain yet. The scratch, that stinks, and is unacceptable. That required a phone call to someone at swatch. OP sent an email to a bot, didn't talk options with a person, simply said he was done with them to a bot.

My AD, and yours, will handle and can handle some warranty issues with swatch. Based on their connections they can get things like say, an endlink, if that will resolve the issue. They resolved one of my coworker issues and he didn't buy the watch from them. At the very least if they need to send it to Swatch, or Rolex, or whoever, my AD will handle all the packing and shipping to and from the manufacturer. Only contact me to authorize parts work, and when it's back.

Now if your guy has a guy, and he is better than NJ use them. Bear in mind we are NJ/NYC, and we are not shy calling out crappy service. Swatch is slow and costly, but so are all the authorized repair centers around us, so can't complain if I can't find better service. Typically the service work performed is fine, Cali Swatch isn't cheaper or faster.

The big thing is if OP wants that scratch resolved visit an AD, or call Swatch.


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## gaborv (Jun 1, 2020)

Opssss, I just found this topic...... unfortunately I have exactly the same issue with my VHP Chronograph....... Went to service on Tuesday..... and it seems this is a typical error of this movement..... ((((


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## Triton9 (Sep 30, 2011)

gaborv said:


> Opssss, I just found this topic...... unfortunately I have exactly the same issue with my VHP Chronograph....... Went to service on Tuesday..... and it seems this is a typical error of this movement..... ((((


I think your movement is fried. You better ask them to swap the whole movement rather than time wasting or blindly try to locate exact faulty parts and just try fix that one.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

If it's under warranty, it sounds like a great candidate for a movement exchange at no cost to you!


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## gaborv (Jun 1, 2020)

Triton9 said:


> I think your movement is fried. You better ask them to swap the whole movement rather than time wasting or blindly try to locate exact faulty parts and just try fix that one.


Update: So, the service (local, authorised by Longines) called me today that the watch is ready (!). I collected the patient and talked with them a little. They told that the battery was empty (below 1.25V) for some reason, probably it was a defective one (Renata type). The current consumption is 1.59 uA of the movement which is perfectly normal, i.e. no short circuit, no major error. They do not understand why watch memory did not hold the perpetual calendar data which should be in the brain for 6 months after watch enters in EOE mode, and they had to contact Swiss guys, then made a complete reset, and then reprogram the watch which "needs quite a long time". I.e. it can be done locally, not necessary to send back to factory. They inserted an Energizer type battery, hopefully will survive the next 4 years as claimed in user manual. Fingers crossed...... (The only question is if this repeats at next battery change, when out of warranty period...., i.e. a normal battery change needs 2 days because memory lost, and can be done only in an authorised service.)


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## ChristopherJ (Jun 8, 2012)

I am another owner of one these watches and have been very impressed with its time keeping. Mine has never been more than 2 seconds from GMT. However, the literature talks of a battery life of "more than 4 years". Given that even if my watch was in the first batch made, it would still be under 3 years old so I was very surprised when today it went into EOL mode. 

I bought it in January 2017. Hopefully my AD will open up again shortly as when I telephoned Swatch I was advised that they could not give me a fixed price as every watch goes through a diagnostic process and an estimate for a battery change was between £50 and £60. 

An interesting observation. I decided to try and put it into "sleep" mode as described in the manual, to save battery life in case the AD does not open up for a while after lockdown. It won't go into sleep mode. It would appear that once it has gone into EOL with the second hand jumping 5 seconds at a time, then it cannot be put into sleep mode by pulling out the crown and waiting a couple of minutes. 

I still have one of the earlier versions of VHP - Cal 546, Flagship VHP bought just as they were being discontinued in 2006. Now that did have a long battery life ~ 10 years - it has a 3v lithium battery. I am now wearing that whilst I get the "new" one sorted.


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## gaborv (Jun 1, 2020)

ChristopherJ said:


> I am another owner of one these watches and have been very impressed with its time keeping. Mine has never been more than 2 seconds from GMT. However, the literature talks of a battery life of "more than 4 years". Given that even if my watch was in the first batch made, it would still be under 3 years old so I was very surprised when today it went into EOL mode.
> 
> I bought it in January 2017. Hopefully my AD will open up again shortly as when I telephoned Swatch I was advised that they could not give me a fixed price as every watch goes through a diagnostic process and an estimate for a battery change was between £50 and £60.
> 
> ...


I can confirm this, I also tried to put watch in energy saving mode (pulling crown) while it was in EOL mode, but it kept running in 5 secs increment. Please update us what happens with your watch, especially I'm interested in how long it took/will take to shift from EOL to EOE mode (all hands at 12), for me it was only one day (!). And if EOE starts, then whether the perpetual calendar needs a reprogramming by dealer, (manual says for 6 months it is not necessary, but my experience showed this is not true, after one day it forgot PC - hopefully it was just my case). I would be glad to know how exactly programming can be done, a few pages from service manual would made me extremely happy )) just to know the technology. The problem is it seems a normal battery change (if not started in few days after EOL) requires an authorized dealer because of losing PC settings.


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## wpbmike (Mar 8, 2016)

Interesting thread.

My theory is that the service center installed a new movement within a week or two, but a technician liked the watch and wore it for a few months. The end-link scratch happened when he was getting out of the pool while on a 5-night cruise. OP got his watch back only after a Legend Diver came in for service, and that’s what the technician chose for his next four-month test drive (including wearing it to a bachelor party).


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