# Sinn 104 - Day alignment



## JohnM

I just received my first Sinn watch -- a 104 St Sa. Beautiful design and very comfortable on the wrist. Two small things, however. One is a slight misalignment of the Day in its window (the Date is fine). Interestingly, the misalignment varies by Day. For example, SAT looks great whereas TUE and WED tilt downward slightly, higher on the left and tipping down to the right. I'll admit I'm pretty particular and this may not be an issue for others. Here's a picture:



If you own a 104, I'd be interested to know if you see the same thing. Since the alignment varies by Day, I'm thinking this is related to the printing of the Day wheel rather than to an assembly issue. I should also point out that while the Day tilts a bit, none of the characters are cut off or hard to see -- all of the printing is visible through the Day window.

Unfortunately, I also noticed two small pieces of debris under the crystal -- maybe something off the dial that stuck to the AR coating during shipping? The larger of the two is above the "a" in Automatik. The smaller is between the 1 and 2 second markers at the top of the dial. I would imagine that a competent local watchmaker could easily remove this debris. Watchbuys has also been helpful in their communications regarding an exchange, if necessary.

I have to admit that both the debris and Day misalignment are small issues in the scheme of things. Your thoughts -- too particular? ;-)

John


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## alexwatch

That watch should never have left the factory. Quality control ? Send it back.


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## rockmastermike

Good to hear WB is working with you, John.....the date would bother me more so than the dust, but sound slike WB will correct both at the same time with an exchange. It's a cool watch and I hope you get this worked out to your satidfaction.


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## dhtjr

The dial on my 104 is clean, but I have the same day misalignment issues you have. I have mine set in German, but a few of the days are slightly misaligned. At first it bugged me a bit, but I'm over it. Love the watch. I had to send mine to RGM to add some oil, as the day quickset function got stuck after only a few weeks owning the watch (the day would change normally with advancing time, but I could not change it independently with crown). It was an easy fix, and both Watchbuys and RGM provided fast and excellent service. Regarding the small bits of debris in your dial, that is something that would actually bug me more than the day wheel issue. If I were you I'd get that cleaned under warranty. If you do happen to get some info on replacing the day wheel, please send me a PM; I doubt I'd bother with it, but if it's a painless warranty fix, I'd consider it. Thanks.


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## rockmastermike

I just ran thru the days, English and German, and fortunately they are fine. Maybe this latest run was hit (I've had mine for a few weeks now) I know they are limited so far in the States and your two are the first I've heard of this, seems like those who got theirs earlier got a good batch. 

or maybe my eyes are crooked and the days are off but I see them as straight. 

Good luck, guys!


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## dhtjr

I got mine in the first batch. I just scrolled through the days and noticed that only two of them are slightly misaligned (german FRE and DIE), and like the OP said, it's very slight, though noticeable. I guess I could switch it to English and avoid the problem. An imperfection for sure, but not a big deal to me. If several days were like that, I might be inclined to get a new date wheel though.


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## rockmastermike

well, there goes my thought about older vs. newer batches....I agree that John's is more than "slight" and that much would bother me. Hopefully more owners will chime in

here are a few shots of mine in English and German for comparison to John's


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## JohnM

Thanks for all the input. Given the various issues, I decided to send the 104 back to Watchbuys for evaluation. Hoping for an exchange but I don't think the 104 is in stock at the moment. Matt and others at WB have been very helpful and responsive regarding my questions and concerns.

John


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## dhtjr

JohnM said:


> Thanks for all the input. Given the various issues, I decided to send the 104 back to Watchbuys for evaluation. Hoping for an exchange but I don't think the 104 is in stock at the moment. Matt and others at WB have been very helpful and responsive regarding my questions and concerns.
> 
> John


Good luck John. Please keep us posted.


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## H.H.Sinn

After reading this, I had to go back and look at mine closer. Nothing to report do not know which "batch" mine is from, other than it is # 63.
VERY pleased with it . Sorry to read the situation with yours. Bought a 20 x 18 black leather with white stitch Sinn strap for it, which I like better.
HHS


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## thwk

Hi Guys,

I just wanted to reach out to the fellow Sinn 104 owners out there to get an honest opinion. I love the watch but have noticed a couple things that are bothering me and would appreciate some feedback.

1. The day is slanted downwards towards the right.
2. Although the hands, face, and dial all align almost perfectly relative to each other, when all these things are compared to the body of the watch, it seems crooked to the left. If you look at the top of the picture and compare the arrow on the dial to the center of the top bracelet link, it is fairly obvious.

Are these issues factory defects that should warrant an exchange or at least a trip out to the factory in Germany for review/repair? Or are they "should be expected" issues that I just need to deal with?

I spoke with WatchBuys and they assured me that this is all normal and within factory tolerances, especially since the day is still within the box and none of the letters are cut off. This seems like a very wide tolerance to me. I would think that a watch of this caliber would have much tighter tolerances for assembly accuracy. I was literally told that these are issues that I need to let go as my expectations of assembly precision are too high.

Are these details really something I just need to deal with? Or is this something that is a quality defect that warrants an exchange or repair?

Your honest opinions are much appreciated. Thanks guys.

Tim


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## MarcW

I have the same issues. And if you look at the photo of the watch on the owner manual, you will see similar things. I think it should be better, and it is rather disappointing, but I'm trying to live with it.



thwk said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> 1. The day is slanted downwards towards the right.
> 2. Although the hands, face, and dial all align almost perfectly relative to each other, when all these things are compared to the body of the watch, it seems crooked to the left. If you look at the top of the picture and compare the arrow on the dial to the center of the top bracelet link, it is fairly obvious.
> 
> Tim


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## EROKS

I got my 104 in the first batch and it has the same day misalignment as the others. It really bothered me at first but I have been trying to live with it. Please keep us updated as to what watchbuys does for you.


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## rationaltime

thwk said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I just wanted to reach out to the fellow Sinn 104 owners out there to get an honest opinion. I love the watch but have noticed a couple things that are bothering me and would appreciate some feedback.
> 
> 1. The day is slanted downwards towards the right.
> 2. Although the hands, face, and dial all align almost perfectly relative to each other, when all these things are compared to the body of the watch, it seems crooked to the left. If you look at the top of the picture and compare the arrow on the dial to the center of the top bracelet link, it is fairly obvious.
> 
> Are these issues factory defects that should warrant an exchange or at least a trip out to the factory in Germany for review/repair? Or are they "should be expected" issues that I just need to deal with?
> 
> I spoke with WatchBuys and they assured me that this is all normal and within factory tolerances, especially since the day is still within the box and none of the letters are cut off. This seems like a very wide tolerance to me. I would think that a watch of this caliber would have much tighter tolerances for assembly accuracy. I was literally told that these are issues that I need to let go as my expectations of assembly precision are too high.
> 
> Are these details really something I just need to deal with? Or is this something that is a quality defect that warrants an exchange or repair?
> 
> Your honest opinions are much appreciated. Thanks guys.
> 
> Tim


Hi Tim,

Welcome to the Sinn watch forum.

Perhaps it depends on the position of the camera, but I am not seeing
a misalignment of your dial in the case. It looks centered to me. I see
the bezel is rotated slightly anti-clockwise, but that seems within tolerance.
After all, when you use the rotating bezel you can only align it to within 
a half minute in general.








While we can read the day, we can also see it is misaligned. It doesn't
look right to me. I suggest you send a message including the photo to
Sinn service ([email protected]). See what they say about it.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## dkbs

This has nothing to do with assembly. It is the problem of day wheel, the paint is totally off. You need a new day wheel, probably made by ETA, not Sellita.

Sellita SW200 has many quality concerns: day wheel is the one, and the large variation of the new watch accuracy is another. The worst part of the whole series of stories is, how a dealer behaves when this kind of thing happens.

Sinn is an interesting brand, but there is a long long way to be self established.



thwk said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I just wanted to reach out to the fellow Sinn 104 owners out there to get an honest opinion. I love the watch but have noticed a couple things that are bothering me and would appreciate some feedback.
> 
> 1. The day is slanted downwards towards the right.
> 2. Although the hands, face, and dial all align almost perfectly relative to each other, when all these things are compared to the body of the watch, it seems crooked to the left. If you look at the top of the picture and compare the arrow on the dial to the center of the top bracelet link, it is fairly obvious.
> 
> Are these issues factory defects that should warrant an exchange or at least a trip out to the factory in Germany for review/repair? Or are they "should be expected" issues that I just need to deal with?
> 
> I spoke with WatchBuys and they assured me that this is all normal and within factory tolerances, especially since the day is still within the box and none of the letters are cut off. This seems like a very wide tolerance to me. I would think that a watch of this caliber would have much tighter tolerances for assembly accuracy. I was literally told that these are issues that I need to let go as my expectations of assembly precision are too high.
> 
> Are these details really something I just need to deal with? Or is this something that is a quality defect that warrants an exchange or repair?
> 
> Your honest opinions are much appreciated. Thanks guys.
> 
> Tim
> 
> View attachment 1287342


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## EROKS

dkbs said:


> This has nothing to do with assembly. It is the problem of day wheel, the paint is totally off. You need a new day wheel, probably made by ETA, not Sellita.
> 
> Sellita SW200 has many quality concerns: day wheel is the one, and the large variation of the new watch accuracy is another. The worst part of the whole series of stories is, how a dealer behaves when this kind of thing happens.
> 
> Sinn is an interesting brand, but there is a long long way to be self established.


When I noticed the day wheel off on mine, the first thing I thought of was Sinn choosing not to use an ETA movement. Up until this point I really had no concerns either way but now I've changed my mind


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## Marc Stang

Just checked mine and I can see it on Tuesday and Friday on the german days. It doesn't look like a wheel misalignment but rather and issue with the print on the day wheel. Anyway, I'll live with it. Apart from that I love the watch. Today was the first time I ever time checked the watch and it appears to be 3 seconds fast over 48hrs. This is better than a number of the Eta movements I own.


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## MJM

Simple rule of thumb. You paid for it. If you're not happy with it, let the company make it right.


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## balzebub

Kind of disheartening to hear that such a misalignment is considered acceptable? If its a watch that cost a few hundred bucks, fine i think i can live with that, but for a watch of this price point, its only right to expect tighter manufacturing tolerances? I would surely try to bring this problem up direct with Sinn in Germany if my AD would not do anything about it?


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## dinexus

Have a day/date on my ETA-powered Fortis that looks correct, this definitely doesn't. It'd drive me nuts, and I'm surprised the nice dudes at WatchBuys don't agree.


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## Dufresne

I'm not so sure this is an issue with the Sellita movements. I had the exact same issue with a Sinn 356 (ETA/Valjoux) purchased new from Watchbuys. I noticed the issue upon receiving the watch and sent it back to Watchbuys--not because they recognized a defect, but because it was within the three-day "grace period" and I had yet to wear the watch. To be fair to Watchbuys, I didn't mention the "defect" either.

I was of the opinion (and I am no watchmaker) that the problem was with the printing on the day wheel because some days would look very crooked, some would look perfectly normal and others would fall somewhere in between. I should say, however, that all of the text fell completely within the rectangular "box" cutout for the day display in the dial (which, IMO, should not be any sort of a threshold of acceptability or measure of tolerance--many of the days looked _terrible_ even though their text was completely within the box). Also, I noticed the printing on the day wheel was much more "fine" and seemingly washed out compared to the printing on the date wheel next to it, which was really annoying in its own right. It all bugged the heck out of me so I sent it back.

I wonder if this just isn't a common issue with not only Sinns, but with other comparable manufacturers. I'm not saying it is at all acceptable, just that these things aren't, unfortunately, so rare. But I agree, at this price point, I personally would have hoped that the movement manufacturer would have filtered out these defects or, failing that, Sinn would have caught the defect prior to installing the movement in a watch that was ultimately put into the marketplace for sale. Perhaps my expectations are too high given the volume of business done by Sinn. Plus, this issue likely affects only a relatively small percentage of 104s, right?

In any case, I hope to order a 104 soon but will take a very close look at prior to putting it on my wrist and if I detect this problem, it's going back.


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## EROKS

I have the same alignment problem with the day. As of today I also have another problem...I went to adjust the day since I hadn't worn the watch and the crown just turns with no engagement with the day wheel. The crown just spins and the day doesn't move. It still will change over at midnight but that doesn't do me any good if I can't get it to the right day. The numerical part of the date can still be manually adjusted though. I have a call into Watchbuys...I'll keep you all posted. Its a shame since I really do like this watch.


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## dhtjr

EROKS said:


> I have the same alignment problem with the day. As of today I also have another problem...I went to adjust the day since I hadn't worn the watch and the crown just turns with no engagement with the day wheel. The crown just spins and the day doesn't move. It still will change over at midnight but that doesn't do me any good if I can't get it to the right day. The numerical part of the date can still be manually adjusted though. I have a call into Watchbuys...I'll keep you all posted. Its a shame since I really do like this watch.


I had the EXACT same problem with my 104's day wheel after just a few weeks of buying. Turns out it just needed a spot of oil and now it works fine. It was unfortunate to have this problem in a new watch, but I will say Watchbuys took care of it promptly and courteously, and my watch was sent to RGM and fixed and returned in about 10 days.


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## Dufresne

dhtjr said:


> I had the EXACT same problem with my 104's day wheel after just a few weeks of buying. Turns out it just needed a spot of oil and now it works fine. It was unfortunate to have this problem in a new watch, but I will say Watchbuys took care of it promptly and courteously, and my watch was sent to RGM and fixed and returned in about 10 days.


Did you have the alignment issue as well? If so, was RGM able to fix this too when it was sent in? Good to hear that WatchBuys took good care of you. They are a good bunch, IMO.


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## dhtjr

Dufresne said:


> Did you have the alignment issue as well? If so, was RGM able to fix this too when it was sent in? Good to hear that WatchBuys took good care of you. They are a good bunch, IMO.


The alignment issue is not as bad on mine, though a couple days are slightly off. I have it set in German right now, and it does look like the "E" in "DIE" sags a tiny bit down. I think a couple letters are a bit off in English too, but I haven't checked lately. Some of the pics posted by others show a more serious alignment problem than I have, and I'm not sure why it's worse on some watches. I didn't raise the issue when I had the day wheel fixed, as it doesn't really bug me, which is odd because I'm usually quite OCD on stuff like that. Love the watch so far, though I do agree that any misprint or misalignment on a watch of this caliber is a bit sloppy in the QC department; if mine were any worse I would be annoyed and seek to get it fixed.


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## EROKS

dhtjr said:


> I had the EXACT same problem with my 104's day wheel after just a few weeks of buying. Turns out it just needed a spot of oil and now it works fine. It was unfortunate to have this problem in a new watch, but I will say Watchbuys took care of it promptly and courteously, and my watch was sent to RGM and fixed and returned in about 10 days.


That's good to know, thanks for the reply!


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## EROKS

EROKS said:


> That's good to know, thanks for the reply!


Talked to WB today. They responded quickly and are taking care of getting the watch fixed at RGM. I also mentioned about the day alignment issue. They said it would be evaluated and would only be replaced if it falls outside of "their tolerance's" . I was told that of all the 104's they have looked at for this issue only one has been replaced. So I think its most likely many of these day wheels will not be replaced. This is my first experience owning this particular movement and I can't say it has been a good one. I most likely will stay away from watches with this movement from now on.


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## dhtjr

EROKS said:


> Talked to WB today. They responded quickly and are taking care of getting the watch fixed at RGM. I also mentioned about the day alignment issue. They said it would be evaluated and would only be replaced if it falls outside of "their tolerance's" . I was told that of all the 104's they have looked at for this issue only one has been replaced. So I think its most likely many of these day wheels will not be replaced. This is my first experience owning this particular movement and I can't say it has been a good one. I most likely will stay away from watches with this movement from now on.


I understand how you feel. My general preference is no day or date at all, but it's hard to find watches I like without at least the date. I think the 104 would look great with no date. I realize I'm in the minority on this issue though.


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## JohnM

I am the original poster on this thread and am sorry to hear that a number of you are noticing the same things on your 104's that caused me to return the watch. It's really too bad because other than the alignment issue (as well as a couple of specks of dust under the crystal), I really liked the 104. That said, this whole experience has made me pretty cautious going forward with Sinn/Sellita. I simply don't understand how Sinn and Sellita can let this QC issue pass. Some have defended that it is difficult to get date and day wheels to be properly aligned. I wonder how Seiko does it, then, on an Orange Monster or SKX007 for under $300.

John


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## eye.surgeon

JohnM said:


> Some have defended that it is difficult to get date and day wheels to be properly aligned. I wonder how Seiko does it, then, on an Orange Monster or SKX007 for under $300.
> 
> John


It's mass production vs boutique production. Price is not the determinant. It's the reason a Honda Civic has a lower rate of initial defects than a Ferrari 458.


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## dkbs

So you think having a Sinn 104 with low end mass produced SW200 movement equivalent to riding a Ferrari?



eye.surgeon said:


> It's mass production vs boutique production. Price is not the determinant. It's the reason a Honda Civic has a lower rate of initial defects than a Ferrari 458.


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## eye.surgeon

dkbs said:


> So you think having a Sinn 104 with low end mass produced SW200 movement equivalent to riding a Ferrari?


I'm not sure what riding a Ferrari means.


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## JohnM

eye.surgeon,

Good insight. I hear what you're saying and agree -- mass production makes a difference. Two things though.

First, isn't the Sellita movement essentially mass produced, at least to the point that one would expect consistency in the spacing between each Day on the wheel?

Second, there are large and small companies that pay attention to detail and insist on very high quality out the door. Boutique production may explain this issue but I don't believe it excuses it. I'll admit that nothing is perfect in life, but when it took me two seconds after opening the box to realize that the alignment was off, it seems that this issue should have been caught earlier in the production/inspection chain.

John


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## grey17

I am curious if 104 owners are still seeing the day date alignment issue? I have had my 104 since October with the same alignment problem. That along with lack of micro-adjustment on the metal strap were disappointing but didn't change my mind on decision to purchase. Now after several months the day date alignment seems to be improved. It is still there on certain days but not to the extent I recollect. I am speculating there was uneven tension on the date wheel that that has since evened out as the movement has broken in. Probably not that different from the how the rate performance can even out after a certain number of days of continues use. 

Or maybe I have just gotten used to it :think:.


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## ahkeelt

Its interesting to see points made from both angles on this. I would not be able to accept a misaligned day/date on these watches. Some of the pictures above - you do not need a second look to speculate something is not right. Its got nothing to do with mass production versus boutique - Sinn was fine earlier till a change occurred here. One way or another, if I had such a watch, it was going back for a refund.

Having said all that Sinn is a very respectable company and one that believes in quality. I am quite certain they are fixing he problem and also resolving issues identified by customers. Good Luck and please keep us posted on what happens next.


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## Dufresne

ahkeelt said:


> Its interesting to see points made from both angles on this. I would not be able to accept a misaligned day/date on these watches. Some of the pictures above - you do not need a second look to speculate something is not right. Its got nothing to do with mass production versus boutique - Sinn was fine earlier till a change occurred here. One way or another, if I had such a watch, it was going back for a refund.
> 
> Having said all that Sinn is a very respectable company and one that believes in quality. I am quite certain they are fixing he problem and also resolving issues identified by customers. Good Luck and please keep us posted on what happens next.


By change, I assume you mean the use of the Sellita. I've had two Sinns and a Fortis, all of which had an ETA Valjoux 7750 and had similar issues. So, while I agree that Sinn is by and large a good brand, I disagree that the use of the Sellita is necessarily the problem giving rise to this thread. In fact, I would say 3 of the 6 or so 7750s I've owned have had this problem to at least to some discernible degree. I think the issue is more likely one of QC or the inability to provide the necessary degree of attention to the pieces (and therefore correcting the problem) before they get shipped out, which perhaps some "boutique" brands are able to do.


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## JohnM

grey17 said:


> I am curious if 104 owners are still seeing the day date alignment issue? I have had my 104 since October with the same alignment problem. That along with lack of micro-adjustment on the metal strap were disappointing but didn't change my mind on decision to purchase. Now after several months the day date alignment seems to be improved. It is still there on certain days but not to the extent I recollect. I am speculating there was uneven tension on the date wheel that that has since evened out as the movement has broken in. Probably not that different from the how the rate performance can even out after a certain number of days of continues use.
> 
> Or maybe I have just gotten used to it :think:.


grey17,

Glad to hear the 104 is working for you. The Day alignment was just too much of an issue for me. I would love to have another 104 if this ever gets addressed. Though it may be argued that this is a small/inconsequential issue, it just didn't feel right to me. Not sure if it's inherent to the movement's Day wheel or if it's related to assembly. Regardless, I hope it gets addressed ... before prices climb further ;-)

John


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## JPfeuffer

Researching the 104 because I was highly interested in getting one for an upgraded beater. Visually it looks fantastic but the issues are a little discouraging and surprising on the number of people who chimed in on this thread. I think I'll stick with my trusty Seiko Monsters...


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## CombatMarine

dkbs said:


> So you think having a Sinn 104 with low end mass produced SW200 movement equivalent to riding a Ferrari?


Sinn watches all have top grade movements, the same exact movement that Chronometers use, they just haven't been certified.

Also, you are aware that Rolex is a mass produced assembly line watch, don't you?


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## Number 44

I'm having the same thoughts. Love the watch but not sure about the alignment. Does anyone know if this has been resolved?



JPfeuffer said:


> Researching the 104 because I was highly interested in getting one for an upgraded beater. Visually it looks fantastic but the issues are a little discouraging and surprising on the number of people who chimed in on this thread. I think I'll stick with my trusty Seiko Monsters...


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## LH2

I'm wondering if the 104's are still having day alignment issues. Anybody know? Would hate to order a new one, only to have to send it immediately to RGM...


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## Higs

Hmmm...... I bought mine on here and it's had a day wheel alignment issue since I've had it. Not hideous but noticeable. 
Anyone had any success in getting it fixed or are we all just living with it? Particularly anyone from the UK/EU.


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## EROKS

Higs said:


> Hmmm...... I bought mine on here and it's had a day wheel alignment issue since I've had it. Not hideous but noticeable.
> Anyone had any success in getting it fixed or are we all just living with it? Particularly anyone from the UK/EU.


I sent mine in and was told it fell within their tolerances so they would not fix it. Honestly I wish I had never bought this watch...have had other issues with it also. Good luck getting the issue resolved. I have been told by watch buys very few have been fixed under warranty. A bunch of BS imho


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## Higs

Higs said:


> Hmmm...... I bought mine on here and it's had a day wheel alignment issue since I've had it. Not hideous but noticeable.
> Anyone had any success in getting it fixed or are we all just living with it? Particularly anyone from the UK/EU.


Actually just checked mine again. It seems that when setting the day from the crown the day sometimes doesn't snap properly into place. But when it changes at midnight it lines up neatly with a notable clunk. I think someone above reckoned their movement had sorted out the day alignment after it 'bedded in'.


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## Watch Possum

I received my 104 in early September and noticed the day issue the first week. The face is also slightly off-center to the left, but only one of us would notice it. 

I'm not happy about the flaws, but it's accurate to within 1 second per day. Since I don't like having the day wheel anyway, maybe I'll do like I told Watchbuys and stick electrical tape on the glass over it. ;-)


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## dhtjr

I got my 104 over a year ago, probably in the first batch from Watchbuys. Within a couple weeks I couldn't change the day or date (can't recall which) by the crown quickset, though it did change at midnight just fine. Sent it to RGM under warranty and got it back a couple weeks later with problem solved. Just needed a bit of oil. I have the day wheel set in German right now, and the "E" in "DIE" and "FRE" is very slightly off, sagging down, but not enough to bug me. I know others have had worse luck with the day alignment. I like the watch very much so far but certainly understand others' frustrations with problems.


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## EROKS

dhtjr said:


> I got my 104 over a year ago, probably in the first batch from Watchbuys. Within a couple weeks I couldn't change the day or date (can't recall which) by the crown quickset, though it did change at midnight just fine. Sent it to RGM under warranty and got it back a couple weeks later with problem solved. Just needed a bit of oil. I have the day wheel set in German right now, and the "E" in "DIE" and "FRE" is very slightly off, sagging down, but not enough to bug me. I know others have had worse luck with the day alignment. I like the watch very much so far but certainly understand others' frustrations with problems.


I had the same problem. Sent it back and it worked fine for awhile. Now it is doing it again. I can get the date to manually change if I set the time to 12 noon. Then it will change manually. The alignment of the day and date are off but was told it was within their thresh hold so nothing was done to fix it. Unfortunately their thresh hold of misalignment is different from mine. Not happy with this purchase at all. I was also in the first batch of watches.


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## dhtjr

EROKS said:


> I had the same problem. Sent it back and it worked fine for awhile. Now it is doing it again. I can get the date to manually change if I set the time to 12 noon. Then it will change manually. The alignment of the day and date are off but was told it was within their thresh hold so nothing was done to fix it. Unfortunately their thresh hold of misalignment is different from mine. Not happy with this purchase at all. I was also in the first batch of watches.


That would be aggravating. I don't even like date complications, but it's hard to find a watch with no date that I actually like. Stowa has a couple non-date watches that are on my radar, but my understanding is the date is still inside but covered by the dial; not exactly the solution I had in mind. Would be nice if Damasko made a non-date version of the DA37, as I bet they would actually properly remove it from the movement. The day and date on my 104 are essentially illegible to me in all but broad daylight, so it's pretty much a complication with little utility and plenty of potential for mechanical failure.


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## Watch Possum

While on another thread that included the Watchbuys pic of the 104, it looks to my eye that the day is misaligned. Also, judging from my own watch, the spacing between the 9 o'clock side of the face and the case wall would indicate that the face is slightly off-center too. 

Hmmph. As long as mine keeps making time accurate to about one second per day I'll live with it, but it's a rude awakening.

Also, to OP: I had an O & W watch with some dust on the face, and the US AD said they'd clean it whenever I wanted to send it back, but no big deal. I asked a few olde tyme Swiss watch dealers and repairers in San Francisco for their opinion, and they all said send it back for service immediately, immediately! No loose particle should ever be inside a watch, unless it's great big chunks of watch maker love. And that's a paraphrase. ;-)


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## ashmostro

Apologies for reviving an old thread here, but I think it makes more sense than starting a new one.

I just received a 104 (old markers, not 2015 numerals style) which I got from watchbuys and mine has three issues that are bugging me: the day is off on some days like many of you have reported, the dial looks ever so slightly turned clockwise, and the crown has a wobble to it, like it's bent on the shaft (also slight). 

I am torn because I love the design and the case fit and finish, and the dial color is so beautiful. I called WB and was quite a bit turned off by their reaction: "let's RMA it because we think you probably won't be satisfied by any Sinn based on your comments. But FYI, it never would have gone out if it passed our tolerances test and it did, so...." While I get why they have to pre-emtively defend themselves in their minds, it leaves me feeling like a customer that is just too hard to satisfy and well, it's a $1200 watch! I think it should be perfect!

Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way. Now I need to decide if I'm willing to live it it or not. Overall, this has not been a tremendously positive experience but I still do like the watch a LOT.

-ashmostro


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## 60 milliseconds

ashmostro said:


> While I get why they have to pre-emtively defend themselves in their minds, it leaves me feeling like a customer that is just too hard to satisfy and well, it's a $1200 watch! I think it should be perfect!


IMO, you are not being unreasonable in the slightest.

Expecting decent fit, finish, and build quality at the $1,200 price point is common sense. As already noted in this thread, there are entry level $200 Seiko divers that get the day/date complication right, and exhibit straight crowns.

I would not accept less in a watch at this price.


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## ashmostro

Appreciate the support, 60. I agree. That said, I decided to keep the watch and not deal with what felt like would become an annoying interaction. I evaluated how much I dislike the flaws against how beautiful the watch actually is, and the time I don't have to deal with the vendor. I'm comfortable in my decision, but that doesn't mean I think the flaws are acceptable for a watch of this price and perceived caliber - it's really not.


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## Watch Possum

Granted this thread has been inactive for about a century, but I think it’s worth re-chiming in. My 104 spoken of above became such an eyesore due to its flaws, not counting the fact I really don’t like day windows, that I dumped it off to a local. 

More important, due to further dealings with both Watchbuys and Sinn, I’ll be surprized to find myself perusing their sites any time soon.


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## Eggy

My sinn 104 (ordered last month) also had a misaligned day wheel. I contacted sinn and they offered to send me a replacement. This was the original watch:









I received the replacement today, while it's an improvement over the first one I received, the day wheel is still tilted downwards towards the right. On top of that the lume wasn't applied evenly on the minute hand. Here's a picture of the replacement:









I can't properly capture the uneven lume on camera so no picture of that. I do absolutely love the design of the watch but can't help but feel disappointed.

*Edit:*

You can somewhat see the uneven lume on the following picture:


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## Colorado Wineo

Darn it! As far as design goes, I feel the 104 is 100% perfect but alignment is a huge "bug-a-boo" for me. Not knowing a ton about these things, can anyone speak about aligning the day and date wheels at the time of service? I would love to hear inputs from Sinn or Wathchbuys about what can be done as I was ready to pull the trigger on one soon. Does anyone else have instances where other Sinn models have misalignment issues? Maybe it is a batch of wheels or maybe my OCD is especially triggered on this topic. I know chapter rings and misaligned bezels can be fixed but I don't know about day and date wheels.


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## Puckbw11

Eggy said:


> My sinn 104 (ordered last month) also had a misaligned day wheel. I contacted sinn and they offered to send me a replacement. This was the original watch:
> 
> View attachment 13083441
> 
> 
> I received the replacement today, while it's an improvement over the first one I received, the day wheel is still tilted downwards towards the right. On top of that the lume wasn't applied evenly on the minute hand. Here's a picture of the replacement:
> 
> View attachment 13083467
> 
> 
> I can't properly capture the uneven lume on camera so no picture of that. I do absolutely love the design of the watch but can't help but feel disappointed.
> 
> *Edit:*
> 
> You can somewhat see the uneven lume on the following picture:
> 
> View attachment 13083621


Common problem with this movement. I sold mine due to this problem. There is nothing Sinn can do , the movement is what it is. I still think it's a beautiful watch if you can get over it! White maybe is less egregious?

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## gfabbri

Are there any 104s that do not have the day alignment issue? 

As a potential 104 owner, I’m wondering if this is pervasive with the design or if these issues are one-offs...


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## gfabbri

Did some unscientific survey work scrolling through photos of the 104. 

It definitely seems as if there are a nontrivial number of misaligned dates out there, but the OP’s photo was by far the worst I saw. Most misalignments appeared to be on the order of 1 degree or less. 

Interestingly, the incidence of misalignment among white versions appeared to be significantly less than that among the black versions. 

I attribute this to either 1) the perception of date misalignment is less on the white faces, or (and I am new here so forgive my ignorance) 2) The white versions may be more recent than the black versions and there may have been improvements in quality control over time.

Either way, if and when I purchase a 104, I will certainly check the date alignment to make sure that it is within personal tolerances. 

-G



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## gfabbri

(Day alignment, not date alignment)


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## AP81

Bumping this thread just to urge prospective buyers to inspect first hand if you're worried about date alignment.

Have the same issue with mine, trying to sort it out via warranty now. Been offered a free date wheel swap, however have been advised it may not fix the problem. Good watch let down by QC issues.


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## Pazzo

AP81 said:


> ....
> 
> ... Good watch let down by QC issues.


Manufacturing and then QC issues, if you ask me!


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## AP81

Pazzo said:


> Manufacturing and then QC issues, if you ask me!


True. I wonder whether it's a day wheel printing issue, or a issue with the day wheel mechanism, or both? Hard to say.

This day alignment isn't just isolated to Sinn- I've seen it first hand on a Damasko and it also happens on the ETA 2836-2 (to which the SW 220-1 is a clone of).

Regardless, it should be QC'd before leaving. It's like a signwriter writing crooked and saying it's acceptable because the text is still within the box.


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## soufiane

It has nothing to do with the movement this poor mechanical design 


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## AP81

soufiane said:


> It has nothing to do with the movement this poor mechanical design


Not sure what you mean? So just an inherent flaw in the mechanics of the movement? Or can this be rectified with another day wheel?


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## Puckbw11

I’ve had two — both with the issue. In my opinion Sinn should release a no date version or a date with no day version (preferably with the date at 6). Maybe they could also slim the watch down a bit. For an under 12mm thickness, it wears thicker than most of my 13mm thick watches!


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## AP81

Puckbw11 said:


> I've had two - both with the issue. In my opinion Sinn should release a no date version or a date with no day version (preferably with the date at 6). Maybe they could also slim the watch down a bit. For an under 12mm thickness, it wears thicker than most of my 13mm thick watches!


My second one as well, and both have the issue. Flipped the first one shortly after buying, then decided to buy one again recently. I didn't expect issues second time around, given it's been nearly three years. I made the assumption that an issue like this would be rectified.

Totally agree a date only version or dateless would be the go, given it's been a long ongoing issue. My current one is similar to the OP's photo - WED is totally funky, FRI is nearly as bad (looks similar to post #54), then the rest not quite as bad but still tilted downwards towards the right. I've taken it up with Sinn directly rather then AD I purchased from, so I guess we'll see what they say.


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## Moyoung

Eggy said:


> My sinn 104 (ordered last month) also had a misaligned day wheel. I contacted sinn and they offered to send me a replacement. This was the original watch:
> 
> View attachment 13083441
> 
> 
> I received the replacement today, while it's an improvement over the first one I received, the day wheel is still tilted downwards towards the right. On top of that the lume wasn't applied evenly on the minute hand. Here's a picture of the replacement:
> 
> View attachment 13083467
> 
> 
> I can't properly capture the uneven lume on camera so no picture of that. I do absolutely love the design of the watch but can't help but feel disappointed.
> 
> *Edit:*
> 
> You can somewhat see the uneven lume on the following picture:
> 
> View attachment 13083621


I just got mine 104 this week and the day/date problem and the uneven lume problem... I'm a little disappointed that a watch that costs 1150€ can have these issues, but I guess that's how it is. What did you do with the second watch with both problems? I get a feeling that sending it back won't fix the problems.


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## Moyoung

Moyoung said:


> Eggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> My sinn 104 (ordered last month) also had a misaligned day wheel. I contacted sinn and they offered to send me a replacement. This was the original watch:
> 
> View attachment 13083441
> 
> 
> I received the replacement today, while it's an improvement over the first one I received, the day wheel is still tilted downwards towards the right. On top of that the lume wasn't applied evenly on the minute hand. Here's a picture of the replacement:
> 
> View attachment 13083467
> 
> 
> I can't properly capture the uneven lume on camera so no picture of that. I do absolutely love the design of the watch but can't help but feel disappointed.
> 
> *Edit:*
> 
> You can somewhat see the uneven lume on the following picture:
> 
> View attachment 13083621
> 
> 
> 
> I just got mine 104 this week and it has the day/date problem and the uneven lume problem... I'm a little disappointed that a watch that costs 1150€ can have these issues, but I guess that's how it is. What did you do with the second watch with both problems? I get a feeling that sending it back won't fix the problems.
Click to expand...


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## Dshirts74

Eggy said:


> My sinn 104 (ordered last month) also had a misaligned day wheel. I contacted sinn and they offered to send me a replacement. This was the original watch:
> 
> View attachment 13083441
> 
> 
> I received the replacement today, while it's an improvement over the first one I received, the day wheel is still tilted downwards towards the right. On top of that the lume wasn't applied evenly on the minute hand. Here's a picture of the replacement:
> 
> View attachment 13083467
> 
> 
> I can't properly capture the uneven lume on camera so no picture of that. I do absolutely love the design of the watch but can't help but feel disappointed.
> 
> *Edit:*
> 
> You can somewhat see the uneven lume on the following picture:
> 
> View attachment 13083621


First off...I love my 104 white. Enough to allow me to overlook a few flaws. Mine has the same lume issue on the minute hand as eggy. It's almost like the lume gets very thin towards the center as if it wasn't filled enough. The other issue I have is that the triangle marker on the bezel doesn't line up directly over the 12. It always looks to be a half click to right. BUT....I overlook these easily enough when I think of the watch in its totality. When I look at those beautiful hands coming to those needle points and aligning so perfectly with every little time hash marker. When the lume does shine, I love how each hand gives a little pop of green color to the watch. I love how the watch looks great on any strap. I just love this watch. Enough to overlook the subtle flaws that normally would send my OCD into overdrive.


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## Earthjade

This is unsubstantiated, but I heard that the issue with the day alignment is a case of adjusting the spring tension on the day wheel. Apparently there could be some play each way in the teeth of the gears which can be adjusted by tightening or loosening the spring tension.


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## Archer

Earthjade said:


> This is unsubstantiated, but I heard that the issue with the day alignment is a case of adjusting the spring tension on the day wheel. Apparently there could be some play each way in the teeth of the gears which can be adjusted by tightening or loosening the spring tension.


Although you could tweak the tension to fudge a slight change in the alignment, this is not a typical thing that gets adjusted on these movements. Adjusting the tension of the jumper can have other consequences - either a day indicator that is not held as rigidly in place as it should be if the tension is reduced, or if it's increased it will cause added drag on the movement during the date change.

The most likely "cause" of this problem is a misprinting on the day wheel, and if so the proper solution is day wheels that have the printing aligned correctly.

Cheers, Al


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## soufiane

I’ve heard of this too I hope I never experience it 


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## Watch Possum

I didn’t read through all the postings here as it’s an old song for me, but here’s my experience. My first one back in 2014 had the day wheel problem along with a couple of other issues. Sinn claimed they were all within manufacturing tolerances and the day wheel should settle in. 

Considering how highly they were spoken of here I was appalled, pretty much. After a short time I turned it locally at more of a loss than it should’ve been. I’ve tossed and turned about taking a chance on another, and finally received my new one this week. Fortunately everything is good, so far, but unless there’s some sort of real need for new, I’ll probably buy my Sinn’s second hand so I’ll know any flaws are the result of wear and not the manufacturer. 

For me the Watchbuys three day return window is sort of pointless if I can’t even take off the plastic to inspect the dial. The only reason I do business with Sinn or Watchbuys is due to the two-way countdown bezel, otherwise I’d never know who they were.


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## 2g2gn

I just ordered this watch and now thinking of cancelling it


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## CGSshorty

2g2gn said:


> I just ordered this watch and now thinking of cancelling it


Because of what a few people on the internet say?


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## 2g2gn

Because of the images of misaligned day and date I've seen. Even in FB Sinn forum some members have this issue. Yup I cancelled my order but looking to downgrade to 556I or A.


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## Zyklon

as another potential customer for this particular watch I'm also disappointing to hear this QC issue has been happening for so many years, the Arabic version of this watch would have been 100% perfect it was released without a day-date and maybe a thinner movement like the SW300...


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## raleighcompgs

FWIW, my 104 St Sa I arrived with no flaws and has run smoothly since I got it new from Watchbuys a little over a year ago. But I completely agree that misprinted/misaligned day/date dials would warrant sending it back. Those are flaws immediately visible to the naked eye.


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## A+U

I’ve just gotten back my 104 I, sent it for the same issue. Thankfully the day/date is now spot on aligned. Repairs took quite awhile though.


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## The Rook

I received my new 104 A at Christmas, but sent it back because of the day wheel issue. It also had poor lume application in the hour and minute hands. In addition, I have seen an example of the day wheel issue on the blue dials as well.


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## Earthjade

Maybe Sinn should come up with a new slogan:

"Everything manufactured to within our tolerances - and we are very tolerant."

The lume on my hour hand is like the pic above - minute hand not so much. Doesn't bother me at all and I can get pretty OCD about things like bezel misalignments.


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## The Rook

Yeah, I would have overlooked the poor lume, but there is simply no excuse for the number of misaligned day wheels.


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## JohnM

^ Where did you send your 104 for repair A+U? Do you know what they did or what the problem was?


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## Tennieman

Hello everyone, I am interested in purchasing a Sin 104 and was wondering if anyone has received an update from Sinn or Watchbuys about the Day alignment issues. Thank you.


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## AP81

Tennieman said:


> Hello everyone, I am interested in purchasing a Sin 104 and was wondering if anyone has received an update from Sinn or Watchbuys about the Day alignment issues. Thank you.


There is nothing to update. The issue has never been resolved and I don't believe there is any intention to. It's luck of the draw, unless you can ask them to do QC first.


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## JohnM

I've always wondered what causes this issue. Is it a mis-printed Day wheel, for example?

Sinn did make a few limited edition versions with green dial and ETA movement. I'm guessing these did not exhibit this problem, but don't know for sure.


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## AP81

JohnM said:


> I've always wondered what causes this issue. Is it a mis-printed Day wheel, for example?
> 
> Sinn did make a few limited edition versions with green dial and ETA movement. I'm guessing these did not exhibit this problem, but don't know for sure.


I've been told it's the movement, but I don't 100% buy that. With stock sellita day wheels the issue is mostly not present. Sinn print their own wheels, so I think their tolerances just aren't as good.
The same with the ETA, as they have printed day wheels they are subject to misalignment.
They should just kill the day and have a date only version (SW-200) if their QC is so poor.


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## JohnM

Few people have much need for the Day and it seems there are fewer day-date watches, especially non-chronos. With a lousy memory, I find the Day display useful and love the design of the 104. But the tilted Day display is unacceptable, no doubt. I find it hard to believe that it's that hard to get right and am surprised that it's an issue that hasn't been addressed or corrected over the past 5-6 years.


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## Tanjecterly

Surprised this hasn't been addressed. I had been wondering myself. I have one of the first ones and it does have a slight crooked day date, but it's not bothered me enough to have it addressed, if it can be.


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## Tennieman

Thank you for the answer AP81. Before I pull the trigger on a Sinn 104 I may ask Watchbuys to give me a QC. I am not sure if they will do such a thing but I rather ask before I make the purchase.


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## AP81

Tennieman said:


> Thank you for the answer AP81. Before I pull the trigger on a Sinn 104 I may ask Watchbuys to give me a QC. I am not sure if they will do such a thing but I rather ask before I make the purchase.


No problems. From experience, MON and WED are always the worst aligned. Get them to cycle each day and take photos for you if possible.


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## JohnM

^ Yes, AP81, that's what I saw on a recent 104. Mon-Wed had a slight downward tilt, while the other days were pretty much fine.


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## Tennieman

Thank you for the heads up. This is great insight!


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## Colorado Wineo

Tennieman-have you reached out to WatchBuys to see if they will do a QC for you on this issue? I want to pull the trigger as well and wanted to hear your thoughts. My OCD would get the best of me so thanks everyone for your input on this.


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## Apothecurious

Colorado Wineo said:


> Tennieman-have you reached out to WatchBuys to see if they will do a QC for you on this issue? I want to pull the trigger as well and wanted to hear your thoughts. My OCD would get the best of me so thanks everyone for your input on this.


I'm also interested in this. I really want to get a 104 but a lot of this discussion has me concerned.


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## Apothecurious

Duplicate


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## Dufresne

This has been an issue since this model was released. I don’t think it is terribly pervasive though. Watchbuys return policy is simple: don’t wear the watch or size it and you can send it back. Why not just by the watch and on the off chance it’s wonky, you can send it back? 


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