# Sinn U1-T Rusting



## chenn

To start I want to make it clear, I am in no way bashing the Sinn Brand. I am writing this thread to share my experience and give awareness to my certain situation.

I received my Sinn u1-T in the mail yesterday from WatchBuys. Sized it and wore it to the beach. I did go in the water a few times.

When I got home I notice Rust forming on the bracelet, I was shocked. It was in-between the links under the clasp, and around the micro adjustment holes. I took a soft tooth bush to it, which help a little but some rust still appears.

In my nervousness I was worried rust had been formed under the bezel of the watch. I decide to unscrew the tiny screws around the bezel. o| one of the screw heads broke off leaving the stem part of the screw in the watch. This obviously was a mistake by my part.

I have called watchbuys today to explain to them about the rust issue. The gentleman refused to believe me saying it was impossible to happen, especially for a watch I just received. And that is was submarine stainless steel blah blah blah... he told me it could have been red algae... I told him I would email him pictures but he still refused to believe that rust had formed. I was told i would need to send the watch back in to fix the screw problem (understandable). But this rust issue was not addressed.

Im waiting for a call back from watchbuys now..

Here is the pics. 










zoomed in


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## Drop of a Hat

Definitely doesn't look right.

"He's just a witness"


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## chenn

Update

Ive been instructed to send the watch to Germany. So they can evaluate it. 

I just payed $2500 to get the watch now, I have to pay shipping to Germany so they can evaluate this rust issue and fix the bezel. 
This is unacceptable.


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## BrentYYC

That's very strange because the steel Sinn uses is supposed to be impervious to salt water damage, from what I understand, and I've never read of anyone having this problem before. I'd be willing to bet that there's an organic reason for the problem, and that it might be something that was deposited on the watch from the water and shows itself more prominently on the areas that are less smooth.

Try dipping the watch in hydrogen peroxide and then brush it with a toothbrush after 15 mins. If it starts to bubble while submerged, and/or the rust colored areas turn white, then you have organic deposits on the watch and the hydrogen peroxide will kill it and it should look like new again after you give it a brush. If there's no change after doing that, then send it away to Germany. If it solves the problem, then you only need to send it to the domestic service center to fix the screw.

One other comment is that you should ALWAYS rinse your dive watches thoroughly under fresh, clean running water after using them in the ocean. Red algae is a single celled micro-organism that's a fact of life in the Florida area, and if you didn't wash your watch immediately after being in the ocean the algae would end up being deposited on the watch as it dried, and the areas that held larger water droplets (holes, areas between links, etc.) would hold more algae and look more red.


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## apf65

That really sucks. I have a hard time believing it's rust, especially so soon, but I can't imagine what it would be. Have some serious doubts to it being red algae though. Good luck, but I've heard their CS is less than stellar. Pls keep us informed as this piece is on my short list.


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## freeman4ever

It appears that all the areas that are rusting are near link pins or spring bars (which are not U steel). My guess is the watch was not thoroughly cleaned in fresh water (and dried) and the link pins and spring bars succumbed to crevice/galvanic corrosion. :think:


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## BrentYYC

freeman4ever said:


> It appears that all the areas that are rusting are near link pins or spring bars (which are not U steel). My guess is the watch was not thoroughly cleaned in fresh water (and dried) and the link pins and spring bars succumbed to crevice/galvanic corrosion. :think:


That was my first thought too, but then I realized the pins and springbars are probably typical stainless steel (same as any other dive watch) and they wouldn't rust anyway. I was also suspicious of all the adjustment holes in the clasp showing rust coloration even though only only one set of holes would have been in contact with a springbar. That's what makes me think it's more likely to be something deposited on the watch from the water, and red algae is one (but not the only) logical explanation.


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## freeman4ever

The springs in the spring bars are likely spring steel, not stainless.



BrentYYC said:


> That was my first thought too, but then I realized the pins and springbars are probably typical stainless steel (same as any other dive watch) and they wouldn't rust anyway. I was also suspicious of all the adjustment holes in the clasp showing rust coloration even though only only one set of holes would have been in contact with a springbar. That's what makes me think it's more likely to be something deposited on the watch from the water, and red algae is one (but not the only) logical explanation.


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## chenn

freeman4ever said:


> It appears that all the areas that are rusting are near link pins or spring bars (which are not U steel). My guess is the watch was not thoroughly cleaned in fresh water (and dried) and the link pins and spring bars succumbed to crevice/galvanic corrosion. :think:


I was at the beach for maybe 4 hours. so all this happened in a time span of 4 hours!

I noticed the areas when _ got _home to rinse the watch off.


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## freeman4ever

Occam's razor? :think:



chenn said:


> I was at the beach for maybe 4 hours. so all this happened in a time span of 4 hours!
> 
> I noticed the areas when _ got _home to rinse the watch off.


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## BrentYYC

freeman4ever said:


> Occam's razor? :think:


Yep... and since discoloration is showing around holes and crevices that weren't near anything like a springbar that might rust, my guess is something deposited from the water.


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## chenn

Theses pictures are after brushing the bracelet off with a toothbrush in fresh water.

If it was something simply just stuck on the bracelet it would have easily come off.


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## chenn

zoomed in pic


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## freeman4ever

That relief sits just below the spring bar for the fine clasp adjustment. I'm guessing salt water left inside the spring bar started corroding the spring, which then spilled out and pooled in the relief cut.



chenn said:


> zoomed in pic


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## scheersmarc

Rust does not appear within 4 hours......


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## greenalk1971

You say that you cleaned it after? That whole bracelet looks odd and off color in spots. Certainly not typical of a tegimented Sinn that's 4 hours old. Mine is 7 years old and in better shape.


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## chenn

greenalk1971 said:


> You say that you cleaned it after? That whole bracelet looks odd and off color in spots. Certainly not typical of a tegimented Sinn that's 4 hours old. Mine is 7 years old and in better shape.


I have no reason to lie.

Update:
At first Matt Told me to ship to Germany
about an hour later.
Rob from Watchbuys told me not to ship to Germany yet., As he is getting in contact with Sinn Germnay to help resolve this issue as well as the screw stuck in the bezel.


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## greenalk1971

chenn said:


> I have no reason to lie.


Sorry, you misunderstood, that's not what I was insinuating. Perhaps there was an issue with the Tegiment treatment. Every manufacturer screws up from time to time. I'm sure it'll get sorted out, that's what warranties are for.


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## BrentYYC

Try soaking it in hydrogen peroxide like I suggested. That way you'll know for sure whether it's organic or not.


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## gaopa

Wow! Rust is not good news. I sure hope you can get some help with your new U1-T fast. Cheers, Bill P.


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## DiverBob

Could it be that the rust was there prior to you owning it and that the beach made it stand out more? It's scenarios like this that have caused me to stick to sub $500 watches. I would be really frustrated if this were to happen to me on such a fine watch


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## unpleasantness

You bought this online, right? Sight unseen? If this is actually rust, and the screw fell apart the way you said, then the watch sounds like its a fake to me. How else do you explain what is supposed to be excellent metal rusting in 4 hours? If it is rust, and a legitimate Sinn, something is very wrong at their supplier. It sounds like the metal is complete crap. Because of the proliferation of counterfeits, I'd never buy a watch from anyone other than an authorized dealer, in person.


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## chenn

unpleasantness said:


> You bought this online, right? Sight unseen? If this is actually rust, and the screw fell apart the way you said, then the watch sounds like its a fake to me. How else do you explain what is supposed to be excellent metal rusting in 4 hours? If it is rust, and a legitimate Sinn, something is very wrong at their supplier. It sounds like the metal is complete crap. Because of the proliferation of counterfeits, I'd never buy a watch from anyone other than an authorized dealer, in person.


The watch was purchased brand new from watchbuys the us authorized dealer of sinn watches.

Watchbuys have been good so far in helping and communicating with me to get this fixed.


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## lvt

Hmm, it doesn't seem right to anyone, even a cheap, disposable Seiko would perform far better in salt water.


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## Beach_Bum

Omega forum is that way OP, see ya.


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## Kurt Koerfgen

I' not sold on the rust idea yet.
We have had a similar report quite some time back and in the end it turned out to be something different.
There are just to many people swimming in the sea with Sinns for something like this to go unnoticed.
Stainless steel used for claps and cases is not known to rust and the "defective batch" theory that is sometimes suggested is just too weak.

Sometimes that first explanation is correct, sometimes it isn't.


Unfortunately, if your are convinced that this is indeed rust, the best option appears to send the watch in and insist not only on the removal of whatever the contamination is, but also on an explanation of what they found.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## JP Chestnut

chenn said:


> Update
> 
> Ive been instructed to send the watch to Germany. So they can evaluate it.
> 
> I just payed $2500 to get the watch now, I have to pay shipping to Germany so they can evaluate this rust issue and fix the bezel.
> This is unacceptable.


The cost of the watch has nothing to do with Watch Buy's useless after sale service. It might have been a good idea to know what you were getting into with them prior to purchase. In any case, needing to send a watch to the manufacturer happens all the time.


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## CM HUNTER

Metallurgy is a tricky thing. Sinn with their in-house innovations are doing something out-of-the-box (typical German thing to do). Yes, you can avoid situations like this by offering just the simple everybody does it 316 SS, but the case will show signs of wear sooner rather than later. Sinn wants to offer something beyond that. Tegimenting is that answer in their mind. Again, it's a tricky thing to accomplish, and when they get it right, it's appreciated. Doesn't mean they get it right every time though. 

FWIW: I've never owned a Sinn and the less than stellar QC has been the reason why. I do however appreciate trying something beyond the typical.


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## cold_beer839

scheersmarc said:


> Rust does not appear within 4 hours......


At any rate, that is rust and it can appear very fast on plain steel, and much less than 4 hours.


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## watchmego3000

That is crazy! I agree it is totally unacceptable and I'm glad watchbuys has changed their tune a little. This is not your problem, to resolve with the manufacturer. Watchbuys needs to stand behind their product and make it right with you. If I were watchbuys, I would be shipping a replacement ASAP, getting this lemon back, and then working it out with Sinn directly. Otherwise, they're not a retailer, they're just a broker.

Good luck man, I can imagine how frustrating this would be having purchased a Sinn from watchbuys just a few months ago.


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## dnslater

I'm curious if somehow carbon steel flakes might be left on the surface from manufacturing....... For example...... if you use steel wool to clean stainless steel, small carbon deposits are left behind and your stainless steel sink will appear to rust.


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## dkbs

I feel lucky I have returned mine. 

I got mine a while ago. I found the very fresh watch has 14s/d error event though Sinn claimed here and there that they ONLY use top grade movement. I don't know who else got this lemon. Anyway, it cost me almost $100 to learn this lesson. 

Whenever someone mentioned the error of a Sinn watch, there always some tenured members jump out and saying:"It is the magnet", "Don't forget the magnet". How could Anachron hairspring bring 10s/d error due to magnet? 

Anyway, we concluded that your rust has nothing to do with Sinn, period.


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## logan2z

First let me state that I'm a big fan of Sinn watches. I've owned many and still own a few. Also, I've never had anything but good service from Watchbuys. Most recently, they stepped in to help resolve an issue I was having with Sinn Frankfurt factory service despite the fact that my watch was well out of warranty. That said, this particular bracelet does look a bit "off" in my opinion. In fact it reminds me a lot of the _non_-Tegimented bracelet I had on my U1 - kind of rough feeling and seemingly not finished particularly well. This was in stark contrast to the smooth, much more refined surface of the Tegimented bracelet on my 857UTC. I have no idea if this is in any way related to the alleged rust seen on the OP's bracelet, but I'm wondering if there is an issue with production of some of Sinn's bracelets that has led to this problem.


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## chenn

I have taken some macro photos of the problemed areas. These photos of been submitted to WatchBuys and Sinn to Review. I am currently waiting to hear back from them. Clearly theses pictures show that the areas are more than just a foreign substances from the water is stuck to the metal


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## Jcp311

Guys come on....the bracelet is rusting. Get over it. 

That's a huge QC issue that needs to be addressed. 

It doesnt need a bath in hydrogen peroxide, or a scrubbing, it needs to be replaced with a signed apology letter from sinn.


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## unpleasantness

Man, that sure looks like rust to me. Excellent photography by the way. I hope this is resolved quickly to your satisfaction.


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## MagnumsGMTMaster

I wonder if something to do with the tegiment process has caused this. I'm not a metallurgist, but I thought stainless steel couldn't rust. If that's rust, then what's the bracelet made of? Regular steel? It would seem to be more than just a QC issue. What a terrible hit to Sinn's reputation. 

(I've looked over my 556A with a magnifying glass. No signs of rust anywhere.)


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## achilles

I have had many Sinn watches and still do. I never had a single issue with their quality or workmanship. In fact, Sinn watches always surpass in those areas compared to many other manufacturers in my perspective.

Whatever the issue is If this is a new watch, it should be addressed or the watch replaced under the manufacturer warranty. And Watchbuys, in their best interest should facilitate this and get it resolved asap.


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## ShaggyDog

I can't believe that a genuine Sinn watch would rust like that, and certainly not after only 4 hours. The only conclusion I can draw is that it must be one of the following things;

A) The watch is a fake using poor quality metal/steel. 

B) It isn't rust but some kind of other debris that has become attached to the bracelet.

C) Something incredibly bizarre has happened in the manufacturing process. 

Maybe C) seems the most likely explanation but then perhaps you'd wonder if other people have had the same problem and reported it here also. Whatever is going on its certainly a puzzler.


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## Ottovonn

That looks really bad. It looks like the finish is even peeling off at that one point. I've never seen a watch at any price point with such extensive rusting after a brief excursion to the beach. I hope everything turns out well in the end, OP.


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## Jcp311

ShaggyDog said:


> I can't believe that a genuine Sinn watch would rust like that, and certainly not after only 4 hours. The only conclusion I can draw is that it must be one of the following things;
> 
> A) The watch is a fake using poor quality metal/steel.
> 
> B) It isn't rust but some kind of other debris that has become attached to the bracelet.
> 
> C) Something incredibly bizarre has happened in the manufacturing process.
> 
> Maybe C) seems the most likely explanation but then perhaps you'd wonder if other people have had the same problem and reported it here also. Whatever is going on its certainly a puzzler.


I can't even rationally entertain A if the OP did get the watch from Watchbuys (we have no reason to doubt him). As for B? Rust is rust...

I've seen this occasionally happen to Dievas watches, they use a hardening process as well (see "6steel"). It wouldn't surprise me if tegmentation or hardening in general at a molecular level made steel more susceptible to corrosion.


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## Jcp311

MagnumsGMTMaster said:


> I wonder if something to do with the tegiment process has caused this. I'm not a metallurgist, but I thought stainless steel couldn't rust. If that's rust, then what's the bracelet made of? Regular steel? It would seem to be more than just a QC issue. What a terrible hit to Sinn's reputation.
> 
> (I've looked over my 556A with a magnifying glass. No signs of rust anywhere.)


Stainless absolutely can rust under the right conditions. It's just more corrosion resistant than say something like carbon steel.


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## Drop of a Hat

Jcp311 said:


> I can't even rationally entertain A if the OP did get the watch from Watchbuys (we have no reason to doubt him). As for B? Rust is rust...
> 
> I've seen this occasionally happen to Dievas watches, they use a hardening process as well (see "6steel"). It wouldn't surprise me if tegmentation or hardening in general at a molecular level made steel more susceptible to corrosion.


Wouldn't that kind of defeat the point?

"He's just a witness"


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## Jcp311

Drop of a Hat said:


> Wouldn't that kind of defeat the point?
> 
> "He's just a witness"


Generally speaking hardness and corrosion resistance is a trade off. Have more of one and lose some of the other...The harder something gets the more brittle it tends to be as well.

As for whether or not tegmentation makes steel more susceptible to corrosion, I think the question is if it does, how much more susceptible is it than regular SS? If I know Sinn it likely isn't much...however I can't say for sure because I was just speculating based on my rusty (no pun intended) general chem 2 memory.

This is likely a defect with the manufacturing process....but I find it strange to see more than one "hardened steel" watch/bracelet having corrosion problems.


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## Drop of a Hat

I think the last one was with the caseback, not the bracelet.

"He's just a witness"


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## Jcp311

Drop of a Hat said:


> I think the last one was with the caseback, not the bracelet.
> 
> "He's just a witness"


Are we talking about the Dievas? The model I'm referring to is the Focal. I've heard/seen more than one rusting and not just on the case back.


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## Drop of a Hat

Jcp311 said:


> Are we talking about the Dievas? The model I'm referring to is the Focal. I've heard/seen more than one rusting and not just on the case back.


No. Talking about Sinn. The subject of this thread.

"He's just a witness"


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## Jcp311

Drop of a Hat said:


> No. Talking about Sinn. The subject of this thread.
> 
> "He's just a witness"


Yeah...got it.

I wasn't sure since there's more than one brand hardening their steel (Dievas, Ocean 7, etc.). I haven't seen too many Sinn's rusting like other brands. This is the first one I've seen apart from some old google results.


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## ten13th

OP best luck to you to get this resolved to your satisfaction. Definitely QC problem. It's a dive/tool watch, the intend is for it to be wore and used in adverse conditions. Four hours in the ocean is nothing, even if you left it out overnight without raising with fresh water.

I've five Sinn in my collection, love them. However, compare to other watches in my collection, QC and accuracy are two major areas they could use some extra attention. I do believe Sinn are going through teething growing pain, going from a tiny regional boutique with really limited volume to one of the more well known tool watch makers. I'm sure they will sort this out in time. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## lovebandit

If its real and it sure appears to be by the context, then it has to be a manufacturing anomaly or more Sinn owners would be complaining here I would think.


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## Pakz

4 hours for rust to appear on stainless steel, be it submarine or not, tegimented or not, seems awfully short... 
Could it be that the rust was there when you got the watch and you only noticed it after coming back from the beach? It's on semi-hidden places, after all?
Then it could be that the watch has been stored in a rather humid and salty atmosphere for a long time (a few month) waiting to be dispatched and it rusted there...


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## CMSgt Bo

dkbs said:


> I feel lucky I have returned mine.
> 
> I got mine a while ago. I found the very fresh watch has 14s/d error event though Sinn claimed here and there that they ONLY use top grade movement. I don't know who else got this lemon. Anyway, it cost me almost $100 to learn this lesson.
> 
> Whenever someone mentioned the error of a Sinn watch, there always some tenured members jump out and saying:"It is the magnet", "Don't forget the magnet". How could Anachron hairspring bring 10s/d error due to magnet?
> 
> Anyway, we concluded that your rust has nothing to do with Sinn, period.


You're still going on about magnetism? Sometimes accuracy deviation is about magnetism, as seen in this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f24/all-sinn-watches-use-top-grade-movements-800739.html

To the OP; it looks like your bracelet is suffering from tea staining: Tea Staining I have Henkel kitchen knives (ice hardened stainless steel) that have done the same thing. Sinn should swap out your bracelet once your issue is brought to their attention.

I'm also happy to say your issue is_ NOT _a result of magnetism! ;-)


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## MagnumsGMTMaster

CMSgt Bo said:


> ...
> 
> To the OP; it looks like your bracelet is suffering from tea staining: Tea Staining I have Henkel kitchen knives (ice hardened stainless steel) that have done the same thing. Sinn should swap out your bracelet once your issue is brought to their attention.
> 
> ...


Known as tea staining in the stainless steel manufacturing industry, rust to the rest of us ...


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## 2500M_Sub

Yikes, hope everything works out for you. Saltwater can be brutal to steel but I have never seen rust on a watch like that. I have been looking for the perfect saltwater knife for a while and as far as choices it's limited because most knives even those made out of a stainless steel will rust in saltwater rather quickly. That said the watch should be able to take much more than a few hours in the water. Blade steel is a different animal because it has to be able to keep an edge etc. I always wear one of my dive watches to the beach and early on would probably not rinse right away and never had any rust. Good luck

Ren


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## CMSgt Bo

MagnumsGMTMaster said:


> Known as tea staining in the stainless steel manufacturing industry, rust to the rest of us ...


So what are you trying to say?


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## MagnumsGMTMaster

CMSgt Bo said:


> So what are you trying to say?


It's rust.


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## CMSgt Bo

MagnumsGMTMaster said:


> It's rust.


If the question is what, then you are correct. I think the deeper question is how. Was the steel incorrectly passivated after manufacture? Are we actually seeing corrosion from cutting tool contamination or shop dirt and not of the Tegimented steel itself? It may be gee-whiz stuff to us, but it's certainly important for Sinn so they can ensure this doesn't happen again.


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## Jcp311

CMSgt Bo said:


> If the question is what, then you are correct. I think the deeper question is how. Was the steel incorrectly passivated after manufacture? Are we actually seeing corrosion from cutting tool contamination or shop dirt and not of the Tegimented steel itself? It may be gee-whiz stuff to us, but it's certainly important for Sinn so they can ensure this doesn't happen again.


Thats for Sinn to figure out after they send him a replacement.


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## JPfeuffer

If a U1 can't handle salt water...what faith in watches could we have? Please keep us posted...


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## Geof3

Oh please, I love how this has become a Sinn bashing thread. Something doesn't add up here. I have a UX that has seen countless hours under water. Sea, fresh, shower, pool, sweat etc. It's not even tegimented, not a single sign of rust anywhere, any time. I have also had a U1, EZM3, and others with no issues. Something is off. Way off. I can't believe there is one bracelet out there that happened to rust after 4 hours hanging out at the beach. If there were a manufacturing issue, there would be more having the problem. There are other factors at play.


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## Jcp311

Geof3 said:


> Oh please, I love how this has become a Sinn bashing thread. Something doesn't add up here. I have a UX that has seen countless hours under water. Sea, fresh, shower, pool, sweat etc. It's not even tegimented, not a single sign of rust anywhere, any time. I have also had a U1, EZM3, and others with no issues. Something is off. Way off. I can't believe there is one bracelet out there that happened to rust after 4 hours hanging out at the beach. If there were a manufacturing issue, there would be more having the problem. *There are other factors at play.*


Ill take that as an insinuation that the OP is lying.


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## Drop of a Hat

Wait for Sinn's response before throwing around accusations.

"He's just a witness"


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## Geof3

Jcp311 said:


> Ill take that as an insinuation that the OP is lying.


Take it how ever you want. Something is not right. Not suggesting he is lying, but there is something else wrong here or there is more to the story. I've owned Sinn watches for years, it is difficult to believe that ONE band out of thousands all of a sudden rusts after a few hours at the beach. It may or may not have anything to do with the OP...


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## Dragonutity

Wow, I'm sorry to hear 
about this situation but I'm
Sure Sinn will take care of you.
But yeah, parting with a watch you just 
Got sucks more than getting braces!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## mebiuspower

Title is misleading... the watch made out of submarine steel didn't rust. The bracelet made of regular steel did.


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## Zidane

Wow...that sure looks like rust to me. Keep us posted!


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## dnslater

mebiuspower said:


> Title is misleading... the watch made out of submarine steel didn't rust. The bracelet made of regular steel did.


The bracelet is Tegimented stainless steel. Not sure how the title is misleading.


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## greenalk1971

It's been 3 weeks. Any updates? 

I'm not necessarily doubting the authenticity of the watch's condition but there are far too many threads out there where there is an "issue" with no updates or resolution, makes a person wonder.


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## uberchimp

Is the 'rust' showing on the watch anywhere other than the bracelet? If not, maybe a non-genuine bracelet has been fitted at some point prior to the OP receiving it? I'm not suggesting an intentionally fraudulent action by the retailer, but being completely objective about this, that seems the most likely cause surely?


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## Strange

This is all very interesting to me. My Sinn U1-T says right on the back _seewasserbestäntig_ which is Germanspeak for salt water resistant. It also says _Deutscher u-boot stahl_ which means German submarine steel. So, between the 'salt water resistance' and the fact that this stuff is supposedly used for submarine hulls you would think it would be about as rust resistant as a grade of steel can be, short of being coated or otherwise surface-treated. Now, I don't know for a fact that Sinn uses the same grade of steel for their bracelets as they do for their cases, so perhaps the bracelets are made of a lower grade of steel with less corrosion resistance. Anyone here know whether or not the bracelets use the same grade of steel as the cases? Also, does anyone know if SUG makes the bracelets as well as the cases, or just the cases?


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## balzebub

Strange said:


> This is all very interesting to me. My Sinn U1-T says right on the back _seewasserbestäntig_ which is Germanspeak for salt water resistant. It also says _Deutscher u-boot stahl_ which means German submarine steel. So, between the 'salt water resistance' and the fact that this stuff is supposedly used for submarine hulls you would think it would be about as rust resistant as a grade of steel can be, short of being coated or otherwise surface-treated. Now, I don't know for a fact that Sinn uses the same grade of steel for their bracelets as they do for their cases, so perhaps the bracelets are made of a lower grade of steel with less corrosion resistance. Anyone here know whether or not the bracelets use the same grade of steel as the cases? Also, does anyone know if SUG makes the bracelets as well as the cases, or just the cases?


I was told that the non-tegeimented bracelets are not made of submarine steel but of normal stainless steel?


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## Byfrost

balzebub said:


> I was told that the non-tegeimented bracelets are not made of submarine steel but of normal stainless steel?


To my knowledge all Sinn bracelets are made of regular (316L?) steel, bead blasted to have similar finishing as the U series submarine steel finish. I read somewhere Sinn did considered making the bracelet made of submarine steel but cost and other $ factor is an issue.


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## Sean779

balzebub said:


> I was told that the non-tegeimented bracelets are not made of submarine steel but of normal stainless steel?


Whatever steel is used shouldn't rust.


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## David Woo

Strange said:


> does anyone know if SUG makes the bracelets as well as the cases, or just the cases?


it appears they make cases, don't see any bracelets:
www.sug-glashutte.de


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## ShaggyDog

So come on OP, what's the latest news on this situation? It's been a month since you last posted in this topic, any word back from Sinn as to what the cause of this problem is?


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## ads75

Any update on this?


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## buddy13

To get an answer for why this steel is 'rusting' one would need to inspect it further, particularly using SEM's, XRD's etc...I am sure that Sinn doesn't have the means to test why this is happening. If they had it would still be unfeasible to study the case on this one watch. It would take a material scientists a whole thesis.

Let me try and explain the reason why I BELIEVE (with reasons) this is happening the easy way.

Being 'tegimented' whatever that is...which I believe is heat treated...there is a chance that in this case they botched heat treatment. When exposed to heat, the 'free' Chromium (the main rust protector) present in steel tends to react with the Carbon forming Chromium Carbides. This uses up 'free' Chromium. Unless Chromium is free it is unable to protect the metal from corrosion. It is this same formation of Carbides that gives heat treated steel its hardness. That is why I don't like heat treated Stainless Steel diving watches. They lose their corrosion resistance.

In fact 316L is simply 316 Stainless steel with less Carbon content. This makes it less amenable for the Chromium to bind to Carbon even during heat treatment, which in turn gives no hardness advantage (i.e. 316L is non heat treatable).

Hope this helps. I would state this reason to Sinn and ask for a replacement.


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## Geof3

buddy13 said:


> To get an answer for why this steel is 'rusting' one would need to inspect it further, particularly using SEM's, XRD's etc...I am sure that Sinn doesn't have the means to test why this is happening. If they had it would still be unfeasible to study the case on this one watch. It would take a material scientists a whole thesis.
> 
> Let me try and explain the reason why I BELIEVE (with reasons) this is happening the easy way.
> 
> Being 'tegimented' whatever that is...which I believe is heat treated...there is a chance that in this case they botched heat treatment. When exposed to heat, the 'free' Chromium (the main rust protector) present in steel tends to react with the Carbon forming Chromium Carbides. This uses up 'free' Chromium. Unless Chromium is free it is unable to protect the metal from corrosion. It is this same formation of Carbides that gives heat treated steel its hardness. That is why I don't like heat treated Stainless Steel diving watches. They lose their corrosion resistance.
> 
> In fact 316L is simply 316 Stainless steel with less Carbon content. This makes it less amenable for the Chromium to bind to Carbon even during heat treatment, which in turn gives no hardness advantage (i.e. 316L is non heat treatable).
> 
> Hope this helps. I would state this reason to Sinn and ask for a replacement.


That all makes some sense. However, it also suggests that Sinn heat treats bands one at a time. If the heat treatment were botched, there would be a batch of bracelets having troubles. I believe Sinn would issue a recall of some sort if this were the case.

I'm not a bit suprised there has not been an update...


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## BrentYYC

Geof3 said:


> I'm not a bit suprised there has not been an update...


Neither am I, as it seems the OP has little interest in actually participating in the forum. Although his post count is quite high, it's entirely from flipping watches in the sales forum, not from discussing watches. I doubt we'll ever hear from him again.


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## deskdiver

Geof3 said:


> I'm not a bit suprised there has not been an update...


yep, the OP flipped it on the sales forum a day ago... hopefully with a replaced bracelet.


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## ShaggyDog

deskdiver said:


> yep, the OP flipped it on the sales forum a day ago... hopefully with a replaced bracelet.


Isn't that mighty strange. He found the time to post a sales post (and another one to confirm it had been sold) but in the past couple of months he couldn't find a minute to just come back here and tell everyone what the outcome was.

Now it's also funny that there was no mention of this thread in the sales post. you'd think he might say something like "This watch has recently had it's bracelet replaced/been polished at the service centre". You know something important like that. But nothing. Nada. Zip.

You know what, I'm going to call BS on this whole thing. Something really doesn't add up does it.


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## BrentYYC

It's also interesting that the OP removed all the pics from this thread to prevent anyone from seeing the problem. I'll bet whoever bought the watch would love to see them. Someone is being a complete (insert disparaging comment here).


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## CMSgt Bo

BrentYYC said:


> It's also interesting that the OP removed all the pics from this thread to prevent anyone from seeing the problem. I'll bet whoever bought the watch would love to see them. Someone is being a complete (insert disparaging comment here).


I'll take that bet.

Could you gents please keep your wild speculation and disparaging remarks to yourselves? It's very poor form.


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## Drop of a Hat

Marking it as "MINT!" Is very.....interesting.

"He's just a witness"


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## DLA

Drop of a Hat said:


> Marking it as "MINT!" Is very.....interesting.
> 
> "He's just a witness"


On other forums I belong to, he'd be banned for misrepresenting for sale items. If he did get the band replaced he should have fully disclosed that in his ad.


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## CMSgt Bo

DLA said:


> On other forums I belong to, he'd be banned for misrepresenting for sale items. If he did get the band replaced he should have fully disclosed that in his ad.


Why should he have to say he had a newer bracelet put on the watch? An older one I can understand, but not a new one. And wouldn't a new bracelet explain the mint reference?


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## DLA

CMSgt Bo said:


> Why should he have to say he had a newer bracelet put on the watch? An older one I can understand, but not a new one. And wouldn't a new bracelet explain the mint reference?


Wouldn't you, as the buyer, want to know that the original bracelet had rusting issues? It may seem like it's not a big deal but the OPs story was it rusted after 4 hrs of wear. To me, a novice watch enthusiast, it sounds like it was abused as I haven't heard of this problem before. If there was a manufacturing defect, as the buyer, I'd want to know this as well so I know that my watch was been repaired.

I'm a gun dealer and am on many gun forums. Any gun that has been recalled and repaired by the manufacturer should be disclosed to the buyer. Any gun that has had issues in past should be disclosed as well. It's the honest thing to do to disclose any issues an item has/has had IMO. As a buyer, I want that especially if I'm paying $2100.


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## Drop of a Hat

CMSgt Bo said:


> Why should he have to say he had a newer bracelet put on the watch? An older one I can understand, but not a new one. And wouldn't a new bracelet explain the mint reference?


Any replacement parts or servicing should be mentioned in a sales listing. That's just common courtesy and common sense. I would definitely want to know if something like this happened with my watch, whether a $2 or $2000 one.

"He's just a witness"


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## logan2z

I don't know guys, I believe in absolutely full disclosure when selling a watch, but if I bought a watch with a defective bracelet and had the bracelet replaced by the manufacturer with a brand new one, I doubt I'd think to mention it if I subsequently put the watch up for sale. Now in this particular case I might have, if only to let potential buyers know that the bracelet wasn't the one I posted about in my "defective bracelet" thread. But assuming that the OP sold the watch with a brand new replacement bracelet then I don't see any reason he had to call that out. "Mint" should do it.


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## Geof3

The outcome of this doesn't surprise me in the least... Very typical...


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## CMSgt Bo

I had hoped the OP would have updated this post long before now as I am getting tired of some members here disparaging his good name.

I've been in contact with chenn who said that Sinn replaced his bracelet and bezel screw (at no cost to him) which essentially returned the watch to mint condition. I don't agree that a replacement bracelet is worth mentioning in a sales post as long as the bracelet that's being sold with the watch is new and without defect (the movement/case/crystal is a different story). The details of the sale are between the Seller and the Buyer and there is no reason to suspect there was any deception on the Sellers part.


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## greenalk1971

How do we know it's a new bracelet? Maybe he sent it to watchbuys, they determined it wasn't rust, cleaned it up, now he's selling it for whatever reason. 
This picture from the ad looks like it still has some residue in the hex holes for the link pins.









And I agree that he doesn't need to disclose any of this.


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## CMSgt Bo

DLA said:


> Wouldn't you, as the buyer, want to know that the original bracelet had rusting issues?


No, it has no bearing on the bracelet that came with the watch.



DLA said:


> It may seem like it's not a big deal but the OPs story was it rusted after 4 hrs of wear. To me, a novice watch enthusiast, it sounds like it was abused as I haven't heard of this problem before.


Novice or not, how does user abuse lead to stainless steel rusting after only 4 hours on anything; watch, gun, boat, whatever?



DLA said:


> If there was a manufacturing defect, as the buyer, I'd want to know this as well so I know that my watch was been repaired.


It hasn't been repaired&#8230;it was replaced.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. And since I moderate the Sales Corner I see no reason to take action against the seller.


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## wedgehammer

after reading through this thread, i went to check both my 22mm clasp (non tegimented, from u1) and 20mm (non tegimented, brushed) and although at first glance they didn't contain rust, after careful inspection i found out that there were minor rusting in between the crevices, gaps, etc... the 20mm one only had rusting where the rubber was inserted while the 22mm one had rusting in different places... the u1 clasp was a few years old while the 20mm one (used on my ezm 3 occasionally) was just over a year old...

i like washing my watches once a day (i sweat a lot, being in a year-round very humid climate and all) and i guess i have to be more careful and make sure it's dried out before storage

so now have dipped them both in vinegar, wait 24 hours and see if i can brush off the rust


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