# Billodes/Zenith Serkisoff Ottoman Pocket Watch



## ikarus2007

Hi

I am a collector of Ottoman pocket watches. I recently purchased a K.Serkisoff & Co Pocket watch. It has a Billodes mechanism inside. I have been trying to date or approx. date of this watch was made. Although I have been searching for a web site for the serial numbers of this kind of pocket watches. I could not find a trace:-(. All I know the Company Zenith had started watch business as Billodes.

If anybody who is familliar with Serkisoff watches could help me I would be very Happy:thanks.
The silver case and the dust cover of the pocket watch has the following numbers. 2074296 - 1480

Thank you


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## D N Ravenna

I'd say this a job for Hartmut and his skills!!!!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter

I think this one may even be beyond me (before my time?! - I mainly know about Zenith starting ca. 1900) but I will give it a go.

Zenith started in 1865 but wasn't called that then. George Favre-Jacot was reputed to have had several names under which he marketed his watches, including Zenith which then became the formal company name in 1911. He also marketed under the name "Billodes" which is the name of a place in France, just across the border from Le Locle (where Zenith are located). The movements there were different to those made by Zenith - at least around 1900 (compare http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/zenhitsite/page7.html).

Your watch is obviously key wound and set. As such, it is distinctly 19th century and may be one of the earlier Zenith/Billodes watches. Still, all the way back to 1865 seems doubtful - I would say somewhere between 1870 and 1890. I am not familiar with the name "Serkisoff" but suspect that it is the name of the jeweller who sold it in Constantinople (Istanbul). In those days, it was fairly common that jewellers asked for watches to be made for them with their name on the dial and the practice went on at least until the inter-war period - Tiffany was probably the most famous example (examples of Patek Philippe - Tiffany and Carties - Tiffany are still around).

What I also find interesting is that there is some arabic/farsi script on the movement. If it was put there by Zenith, it is almost certain that it was put there by special request. It also opens up the possibility that Serkisoff was himself a watchmaker who bought "ebauches" (raw movements), in this case from Zenith, and assembled them himself. Since "Billodes" and the Zenith coat of arms also appears, it is more likely that he would have bought fully assembled movements, added the arabic engraving and put the things into cases with dials bearing his own name.

Hartmut Richter


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## ikarus2007

Thank you very much for taking your time to write all that information. You are very kind. It is older then I thought. now I know, thanks to you. I also did some research about K.Serkisoff. K.Serkisoff & Co were making pocket watches for the Ottoman market. As you wrote they were purchasing the movement from Billodes. The dial of the watch is porcelain. it is key wounded. I had to ask somebody who speaks arabic to translate the script inside the movement. it says " my watch". I have another Serkisoff pocket watch with gold dial. It is a very nice and interseting pocket watch. I am going to attach the photos of it as another thread. again, thank you very much for making the date clear when it was made. 
Best Regards


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## D N Ravenna

Excellent Hartmut!

Thanks!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter

To pick up an older thread: there is a near identical watch pictured in the new German book on Zenith (p. 52). It states there that the watch is from ca. 1890 and that Serkisoff was the general sales agent for Billodes in Constantinople. The arabic script on the movement also translates as "Serkisoff". This would make the watch a little more recent than I though - I would not have expected Zenith to use key wound and set movements at that time.

Hartmut Richter


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## Zigito

hey I dont know what do I have then you have to see this... My eanglish is not very good I`m sorry for that,but you have to help me.. See this


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## Zigito

this whatch have a number 18456


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## Hans61

Hello.
I want to add: As far as I know these watches were manufactured until about 1930


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> Hello.
> I want to add: As far as I know these watches were manufactured until about 1930


Possibly - but I doubt that they used such movements! The movement in question was used by Zenith until ca. 1905 when the newer range of calibres (e.g. 19''' N.V.S.I and similar) were introduced. It is possible that Zenith used up old stock of Billodes and Diogene movements for the Ottoman market but since the Ottoman empire collapsed in 1918, I also have my doubts that such watches were made right until 1930.

@Zigito: unfortunately, your watch seems to be missing movement parts as well as dial and hands. Your only hope to restore it (if that's what you planned) would be to approach Zenith - and for such an old movement, parts availability may well be limited. Zenith will restore any watch they made but the price would be appropriately high.

Last but not least, it's time to correct an old gaffe of mine (in an earlier post in this thread): the "Billodes" line was named after the address of the company: 34 Rue de Billodes, 2400 Le Locle and not after a place across the border in France (must have been thinking of Besancon where Zenith also had a factory, but much later - silly me! :think: :roll.

Hartmut Richter


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## John Chris

I have a similar watch, and owned 2 of them in the distant past. They are not particularly rare. Favre-Jacquot's manufacture was (and still is) on Rue Billodes in Le Locle. There is some dispute as to whether the script on the movement is 'Serkisoff' in Arabic. I have read elsewhere that it translates as "my watch", but I cannot read it myself. Roessler was also wrong about the meaning of the 40T symbol on the dial of cal. 40T wristwatches. As for age, Roessler is inconsistent, stating 1880 on 1 page and 1890 on another, with a reference to 1870 elsewhere. Billodes was a trade name used by GFJ, along with Defy, Diogenes and, after 1897, Zenith, until Zenith became the exclusive trade name in 1911. My watch has his initials inside the cover. Cheers,

Chris


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## Hartmut Richter

John Chris said:


> I have a similar watch, and owned 2 of them in the distant past. They are not particularly rare. Favre-Jacquot's manufacture was (and still is) on Rue Billodes in Le Locle. There is some dispute as to whether the script on the movement is 'Serkisoff' in Arabic. I have read elsewhere that it translates as "my watch", but I cannot read it myself. Roessler was also wrong about the meaning of the 40T symbol on the dial of cal. 40T wristwatches. As for age, Roessler is inconsistent, stating 1880 on 1 page and 1890 on another, with a reference to 1870 elsewhere. Billodes was a trade name used by GFJ, along with Defy, Diogenes and, after 1897, Zenith, until Zenith became the exclusive trade name in 1911. My watch has his initials inside the cover. Cheers,
> 
> Chris


Well, although I can't read arabic, I can decypher the script a little (I have Persian connections, who have similar script) and the first part of the inscription looks like a dead ringer for "Serkisoff" to me. However, there does seem to be a little extra there.....

As for the age of the watch, can you give the pages that contradict? I can only see one Serkisoff PW (Page 52, one picture repeated on Page 47) in my (German) version of Rössler and that one is given as made in 1890 in both cases.

Hartmut Richter


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## John Chris

Hartmut Richter said:


> Well, although I can't read arabic, I can decypher the script a little (I have Persian connections, who have similar script) and the first part of the inscription looks like a dead ringer for "Serkisoff" to me. However, there does seem to be a little extra there.....
> 
> As for the age of the watch, can you give the pages that contradict? I can only see one Serkisoff PW (Page 52, one picture repeated on Page 47) in my (German) version of Rössler and that one is given as made in 1890 in both cases.


Hartmut, in my 2008 English language edition (I don't have access to an umlaut, hence my spelling of Roessler), the photo of the movement on p. 47 (same photo as on p. 52) states 1890. On p. 52, the date "about 1870" is given. Lost in translation? Good job on the Arabic!

Chris


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## Hans61

Actually an old thread, but quite interesting.
What can be seen from the details?
I made better pictures of my watch.
It has case-number 3418253 155 and the initials Georg Favre Jacot.







































The first watch in this thread has case-number 2074296 1480 and false english hallmarks.









And what's that?


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## Hartmut Richter

Ol' eagle eyes at it again, I see! Good point though - it looks as if the OP's watch is missing a bridge. Also, the shape of the bridge holding the wheelhouse is different to the standard "Billodes" movement. A fake? Possibly - but IMO definitely not a modern one. I wonder if Zenith watches were faked as early as ca. 1880?! :think: No, on the whole I think that we may be looking at yet another calibre variant missing in Rössler's book.....

As for the inscription, I asked someone who is even better at reading _farsi _script than me - my wife! It reads "Serkisoff Sherkat", the latter word meaning "factory" or "workshop" so that it amounts to "Serkisoff & Co." - just like on the dial! b-)

Hartmut Richter


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## John Chris

Note also that on Hans61's watch, like mine, the Arabic script is located between the regulator/balance bridge and the main plate (as illustrated in Roessler), not up above the bridges as on the first one. The English did not, as far as I know, hallmark .800 silver. Interesting!


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## Hans61

John Chris,
I would like to know the case-number and the kind of hallmarks of your watch.
And please Pictures.


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## John Chris

Hans61 said:


> John Chris,
> I would like to know the case-number and the kind of hallmarks of your watch.
> And please Pictures.







































































Herewith the pictures of my rather beat-up watch, which has yet to be serviced. Oddly enough it has a different number on the inside of each of the three covers - front, back and movement. Your photos show only one inside cover. Are there different numbers on the other covers? I have no idea what they signify! Anyone?

Chris


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## follow

Dear Sir,

I have an old watch nameR.SERKISOFF CO CONSTANTINOPLE and BELENUS writes on a machine. I do not know what period it originated and what its value. I do not want to sell it. but I would like to know more about this watch. I saw that you are specialist for this watches so please let me know 
more about it. Thank You in advance and best regards,
Zorica


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## D N Ravenna

Hello Zorica,
Sorry, but we do not provide values or estimates here. To give you a better idea of the watch's history, we need a clearer shot of the movement. It is hard to tell from the original picture.

Thanks for sharing!

Dan


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## follow

Thanks,I will send better pictures in few days now I have only this.
Regards
Zorica


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## D N Ravenna

I did look through what little reference material I had and could not find a likely candidate. Perhaps someone else here will be luckier!

All the best,

Dan


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## Michael VanderSman

I too have 2 of these watches.
Purchased them in Ankawa, Erbil (northern Iraq) when stationed there for the UN in 1998
Am about to have them serviced after finding them both in "my old stuff back from the days".

Mainly posting them here to find out more about them, and as far as previous posts haven't answered my questions yet (aprox manufacturing date, where, rarity), posting for informative purposes







































































Another question which remain:
With pocket watches, does removing the patina add or remove value of the watch? 
I know with old guns it diminishes the value....


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## D N Ravenna

I don't think that watches are too far removed from firearms when it comes to cleaning. If you are lookng to get them to run, then certainly removing the rust is OK. If you are looking to move them out of your collection, then asking someone who knows about their value can give you information on if removing patina will alter the value. It's tough to leave them alone, but sometimes you nned to.

Cheers,
Dan


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## val48

Can someone tell me something about this ottoman pocket watch.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the Zenith forum. By the look of it, your watch is unsigned but with a Zenith movement. The dial has what looks like the calligraphic stamp of some caliph or sultan or similar big noise in the muslim world but very likely not the maker, assembler or end vendor (although there seems to be some other, more normal arabic or persian script very close to the centre that fits the bill more closely). It is somewhat worn but if it still works and only needs servicing, it should keep great time.

Hartmut Richter


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## val48

thank you very much for your response Mr.


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## Ellanios

Hello dear members of this forum.
I must admit that I am not aware of watches.
A friend of mine, years ago found in the countryside the following pocket watch.
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting
It is very important for me to know the construction period.
On the inside is written ZENITH 1865.
I have no more images available .
At the time he found the clock was still working.
I asked the zenith company, the railway companie and the Railway Museum of Turkey.
Nobody ever answered my.
I'd be very grateful if anyone can help me because years ago i fail to learn more about this watch until unexpected i found your page.
Thank you for your time


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## D N Ravenna

Welcome to the forum!

I looked at your two pictures. It is hard to tell about the case, but kind of seems of recent construction. But it would be hard to verify without additional pictures. As for the watch, we will not be able to help without knowing its serial number, which will require you to remove the back of the case.

Looking forward to hearing more about it,
Dan


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## Ellanios

Thanks for the reply Dan
Unfortunately my friend lives in Western Europe and I can not access it because he has left the clock to relatives.
In the following video the owner shows a similar pocket watch
Zenith Turkish rail way pocket watch 1950's - YouTube
I would be happy if you could say if it's before 1920, or if it's before 1950.
If the construction period is somewhere between 1930 -1947 maybe I can do a guess about who the owner was of the watch.
I just hope that it is not later than 1950.
Thank you again for your time.

I have found this two items.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAP...3240&item=140445773240&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAP...5538&item=160996185538&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466
The second looks very simmilar .
The first has three words above ΖΕΝΙΤΗ 
On the second it seems that the words are the same.
Maybe whe could better define the age of the watch.

http://uhrenshop.classic-watch-foru...henuhren-ab-1845/Zenith-Railroad-pocket-watch
https://sites.google.com/site/zenithistoric/les-montres-de-chemins-de-fer-de-zenith


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## Hartmut Richter

To be absolutely sure about your watch, we would have to see a picture of the movement inside. However, there is a high chance that it is similar to most of the ones you show in your links. In which case, it will be from the sixties or early seventies and will have a Cal. 177-T or Cal. 3841.

I am not sure since Rössler does not give details on this but, having seen the two movements, I am fairly sure that they are practically identical and are just different designations of one and the same movement. The old system (e.g. Cal. 135) refers to the size of the movement in french lignes so that a Cal. 177 is 17''' (equivalent to about 38mm). The newer system refers to the size in mm so that 3841 would mean 38mm, a Type 1 movement (subsecond at 6:00, no complications) and 4 the fourth of its type and size at Zenith. Normally, the precise calibre code is under the balance wheel.

Hartmut Richter


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## Ellanios

Thank you all for your help.
I think it is clear now that it is from the period 1960-1972.
The words T.C. DEVLET DEMIR YOLLARI with a star above the ZENITH word are from 1960 and later!
So i think that i have a answer on my question that clarify many things!
Thanks again!


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## riodoro

Hello,

i have a watch like them too. Inside there is written: K Serkisoff & Co Constantinople. The numbers are almost unreadable: 683402 under this line: 7318. Does somebody sth. about these numbers ?

My knowledge is that Serkisoff was an Armenian (not an arabic or sth. like this) who trades the watch in constantinople (today istanbul). Officaly constantinople was renamed to istanbul in 1930. So its absolutely clear that the watch was manufactured and traded before 1930.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to the Zenith forum. The number quoted sounds like the case serial number. Most Serkisoff Zeniths were made before ca. 1900 so your assessment is quite accurate. Some pictures of the watch would, nevertheless, help.

Hartmut Richter


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## julianjohansen

ikarus2007 said:


> Thank you very much for taking your time to write all that information. You are very kind. It is older then I thought. now I know, thanks to you. I also did some research about K.Serkisoff. K.Serkisoff & Co were making pocket watches for the Ottoman market. As you wrote they were purchasing the movement from Billodes. The dial of the watch is porcelain. it is key wounded. I had to ask somebody who speaks arabic to translate the script inside the movement. it says " my watch". I have another Serkisoff pocket watch with gold dial. It is a very nice and interseting pocket watch. I am going to attach the photos of it as another thread. again, thank you very much for making the date clear when it was made.
> Best Regards


Actually the Arabic script says "Serkisoff Shirketi" which is "Serkisoff Company" in Turkish. Turkey abandoned the Arabic script in 1927, I believe.


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## bikily

Hi.
I have this J. Dent London watch. 
I was wondering if anyone can tell me the details like what year was made ?
For how much could I sell it ? ...
Serial number is 6084
Thanks !


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek and the Zenith forum. I think the person to talk to about this one is probably SilkeN (who drops by every now and then). The case is very nice and looks like _niello _silver but I think there are cheap ways of faking this effect. The movement looks like the ol' Billodes movement often found in Ottoman watches but the _finissage _is rather poor. On top of that, we have discussed this one at length on the Vintage forum and have come to the general concensus that this movement was copied by unknown other makers to a lower quality standard. I am afraid I have to tell you that in my opinion, you have such a specimen: you may well notice the complete absence of "Billodes" anywhere on movement or case and the capstones are unusually pale for rubies, meaning that they are probably made of coloured glass. However, Silke will (hopefully) confirm this and you may want to wait for her opinion. I am sorry, we don't give valuations here anyway but in view of the evidence I currently have, it should not be that much in any case.

Hartmut Richter


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## SilkeN

It's quite simple in this case. he movement is marked with P.D.A. even if you don't find exact this P.D.A. in exact this constellation by mikrolisk thus it will be Otto Wiederrecht or probably his followers J.Siegrist & Cie (PDA in Square). They produced a lot pocket watches for the ottoman market. All signs match to Wiederrecht. 
The case is as far as pictures tell the truth Tula but "softer" earlier one and the technique wasn't sophisticated in switzerland. You can't compare them with the magnificent Tula ones by Huguenin freres (starts ca. 1900). Probably you'll find a silvermark anywhere the watch seems to be build later than 1882. Personal I love the term: Around 1900 - than you can't make a mistake . 
It might be that J.Dent belongs to the potent wholesaler Serkisof for the osman market but may be its just a brand a lot of swiss companys use. Billodes as well as Otto Wiederrecht, Perret& fils etc. use this name on dials and movements.
If you wan't to sell it. It's a typical watch for ebay. Start with Zero and look what will happen. It won't make you rich but you'll get some bids.

Regards Silke


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