# Forged Carbon and maybe a little bit of bronze.



## workaholic_ro

Hi everybody!

My name is Fidel Chirtes and I am this guy:









Some members remember me, not because I am who I am, but because I am the creator of that thing from my wrist (Boschett WUS DWP, thank you Jim, if it wasn't you it would never happened, thank you Keith for bringing it to life).
Obviously some don't. Don't remember me, I mean, or simply never heard about my existence. Some of them never heard about DWP either, or simply hate it. Now, speaking about DWP, since I started to work on it, or even a little before, I was planning to start my own micro-brand, but being busy and involved in many other projects (car body parts, composites, various machines) I never had the time to do it. I still don't, but at least I made the great decision. Long story short: new company, a name, some tests, contacts established and here I am. I invite you to participate to my journey, my work and my fight. Feel free to come with suggestions, critiques and to share your impression even it is not favourable. I didn't come here for ovations, I came to hear honest opinions from the largest watch community. Questions are also welcome. Let's GO! (BTW, I mentioned something about a name, will be revealed soon.)

Day one, step one: base material, forged carbon. I know, not very original but so is steel and they are still using steel to make watches.
I made it, I have it, still working a little on the "ingredients", but the recipe is almost done.Here is the proof:









The structure of a forged carbon block on microscope. I added a sharp pencil tip and the smallest screwdriver I have to show the magnifying ratio.
The picture was taken here, in a man's cave. Carbon block - bottom left :









For those who are familiar to carbon fiber composite parts, you know how it sounds when you knock it. Like plastic.
Now listen to this, I love it. It sounds like ceramic piece. This is what compression does:





Thank you for your patience and more to come. Cheers, Fidel.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Day 2, step 2: THE movement.

Although they are far to be as accurate as quartz watches, I am a fan of mechanical. No need to explain, most of you know the feeling of a mechanical watch on the wrist.
There are a few options from ETA, Sellita or the newest series from Miyota, the 9000 family. Seiko is for Seiko watches only (IMHO), Technotime is too expensive, Soprod is made of "unobtainium".
From all the above my list is very short: 2824-2, 2836-2, 2892-A2.
For the start I bought a lot of these, not many but enough to start a small edition:









No worries, they are not clones :


----------



## workaholic_ro

I didn't finish the design yet so I'm posting a pic from my cave:









...and another one:


----------



## utzelu

Nice cave you have there  It would be good if you could show us the design of your project. So far I could not understand how will the watch look like eventually.


----------



## Dave S

How is this 'Forged' ?
What is the process?

Dave


----------



## workaholic_ro

utzelu said:


> Nice cave you have there  It would be good if you could show us the design of your project. So far I could not understand how will the watch look like eventually.


Thank you. I still have a few details to refine, but I promise it soon.


----------



## supawabb

Hello Fidel, what you have posted so far is mighty nice. I look forward to seeing more as this progresses.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Dave S said:


> How is this 'Forged' ?
> What is the process?
> 
> Dave


Actually because the Italians decided to call it this way. If you are familiar to metal fabrication methods and take the term from there ad-litteram, you should rather call it compressed, not forged. But using the term compressed sounds confusing, you can compress a fluid (usually a gas) but how can one compress a solid which is well known as practically incompressible. Now the story (I'll try to be brief):
The spring of inspiration seems to be Boeing and goes way back in the early eighties. Lamborghini hired a consultant who was working for Boeing and started to play with composites. I mean "real" composites, carbon fiber and advanced resins. (composites in automotive are even older, the first attempts are from the fifties, but using inferior resins as polyester combined with glass fibers - BTW contrary to the popular belief glass fibers are not inferior but that is another story). In the beginning there were woven fibers and resin, later prepregs and when the market and the technical and design needs increased "carbonio forgiato" was born. Which translated into English is "forged carbon". Now, the material (carbon fiber) being the same, what is the main difference between woven and "forged" ? The fibers are not anymore continuous and regular, arranged in an orderly pattern, but cut and erratically dispersed. From a technical perspective it gives a better behavior of the structure, a uniform resistance in all directions, unlike the pattern arrangements which have always preferred directions depending on the orientation of the fibers. Besides, the woven composites are made at pressures going up to 8 bar in the "classic" way, infusion or prepreg and up to 20 bar for modern and faster methods (LRM, RTM, VARTM); "forged" is made at 300 bar which gives a much better carbon/resin ratio and a more compact structure. The designers side is also enriched, improved, the fibers have a "natural" look. The watch industry which is in a permanent search of new materials, processes and mechanisms (ceramics, meteorites, fossilized fragments, petrified dinosaur poop, roller chains, liquid pistons, magnets just to mention a few) borrowed this too from the automotive industry and applied it to watches. The question is: do we need them all? Definitely not, but we love them 
As far as I know the very first was Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore Carbon in 2007, followed Cvstos, Richard Mille, Linde Werdellin as big names and also a list of little guys on which I am trying to subscribe.
As for the part two "What is the process", basically a mix of carbon fiber and a binder are compressed in a metal or ceramic mold (pressed and not injected this is the "forged" part). The temperature is an option depending on the nature of the binder which can be a thermoset or a thermoplastic resin. Additional chemicals and powders can be also involved, to change the colour or light efects, to improve the scratch resistance, but nobody will tell you how much or what. More details as my project moves forward. Details on any matter above - feel free to ask. I may not know everything but I'll do my best.

Not the best presentation IMHO but it may bring some light:
https://admin.www.lamborghini.com/s...lamborghini/forged/Forged presentation_EN.pdf
...and if you can read Italian (or google translate may do it for you) this is approximatively a part of what I've said above:
http://www.orologioblog.net/46/perche-carbonio-forgiato

ERRATA: just noticed that in the pdf indicated above they mentioned a pressure of 80 bar. From other sources I've heard about 300, I made my tests above 500 (possible for small parts, hard to achieve for car parts), doesn't matter exactly how much and I have no idea how much is enough, fact is that it is A LOT of pressure.


----------



## workaholic_ro

supawabb said:


> Hello Fidel, what you have posted so far is mighty nice. I look forward to seeing more as this progresses.


Will try not to disappoint, thanks !


----------



## Dave S

Thanks for the explanation. So it sounds similar to random chopped strand matting with high pressure resin infusion in a metallic mold process.
I have some experience in composites, but the forged name is not something I have come across with a none “marketing” explanation...

Dave


----------



## workaholic_ro

Dave S said:


> Thanks for the explanation. So it sounds similar to random chopped strand matting with high pressure resin infusion in a metallic mold process.
> I have some experience in composites, but the forged name is not something I have come across with a none "marketing" explanation...
> 
> Dave


Yes and no. Random chopped yes, high pressure is required, but there is no infusion. The components are mixed in precise quantities before they are put into the mold, including the thermoset or thermoplastic resin.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Step three: first case model, to start e debate. 41 mm, 50 mm or 2" lug to lug, about 13 mm thick.
Carbon + bronze or carbon only, maybe two versions, working on it.
And a printed bezel. Not the best photo and not the best print, but I'll do more tomorrow.


----------



## workaholic_ro




----------



## workaholic_ro

One more step forward.


----------



## FubarCle

I really like what you are doing here. Very interesting. I personally prefer the bronze with carbon. But I do like the other as well!


----------



## workaholic_ro

FubarCle said:


> I really like what you are doing here. Very interesting. I personally prefer the bronze with carbon. But I do like the other as well!


Thank you!

Rapid prototyping and the first "wrist shot":
















A bronze version asap.


----------



## FubarCle

workaholic_ro said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Rapid prototyping and the first "wrist shot":
> 
> View attachment 14612127
> 
> View attachment 14612125
> 
> 
> A bronze version asap.


Are you gonna machine the bronze yourself? What movement are you planning. I like carbon prototype. The Bronze will be better. Like the colors together especially when it patinas. What material for your dial?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## FubarCle

FubarCle said:


> Are you gonna machine the bronze yourself? What movement are you planning. I like carbon prototype. The Bronze will be better. Like the colors together especially when it patinas. What material for your dial?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


And what size did you go with. I was gonna chime in and say that 41 is too small. I would honestly say 44 or 46. But that is always my preferred size. Also what movement are you planning.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## workaholic_ro

41 looks good on my wrist. I don't know what to say about bigger. I'll start to produce a small limited edition (20 or 30 pcs.) and I think that an average size is the most common. 
As for the movement, Swiss ETA 2836-2.









I didn't make a dial yet and I was curious to see how it looks with one very familiar to me:


----------



## workaholic_ro

The dial will be made of carbon fiber, still working on it, suggestions are welcome. Superluminova C3 for the lume.
I will do most of the job myself, yes. I also have a friend who will cut some CNC parts. 
It is planned to be a 100% European watch. Not sure yet about the sapphire, it could be asian though.


----------



## FubarCle

The Only carbon dial I have in any of my watches is the Zelos Swordfish. And it is most amazing. I do like the dial you put in your post. And I know the smaller case size is much more common. Thanks for sharing your project! 

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## MechaMind

Would go for a non fiber layer on the wrist als carbon fibres are also able to perform cell penetration. And even if its ground to smooth and slick.. once you have an accident/ collision the fiber is open to sting..


----------



## workaholic_ro

MechaMind said:


> Would go for a non fiber layer on the wrist als carbon fibres are also able to perform cell penetration. And even if its ground to smooth and slick.. once you have an accident/ collision the fiber is open to sting..


If the collision is so hard that breaks a 3mm thick carbon fiber back there is no more wrist to be injured. Neither the owner of the wrist and the watch. A different material for the case back would be considered though, but not for this reason.


----------



## workaholic_ro

MechaMind said:


> Would go for a non fiber layer on the wrist als carbon fibres are also able to perform cell penetration. And even if its ground to smooth and slick.. once you have an accident/ collision the fiber is open to sting..


If the collision is so hard that breaks a 3mm thick carbon fiber back there is no more wrist to be injured. Neither the owner of the wrist and the watch. A different material for the case back could be considered though, but not for this reason.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Saturday night fun in Bogdan's workshop. I think he did a great job (the bezel and the photos).
Forgot to take a picture of him, you'll meet Bogdan next CNC "session".


----------



## workaholic_ro

Back to the lathe....


----------



## MechaMind

I believe that, but I thought about an edge impact.. btw very nice parts!


----------



## FubarCle

What were you doing in this lathe operation? Just facing the back side and bringing the overall length into specification?

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## workaholic_ro

FubarCle said:


> What were you doing in this lathe operation? Just facing the back side and bringing the overall length into specification?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


Exactly, but for the future I think will reverse the order, facing first and than CNC. It would be easier.


----------



## FubarCle

workaholic_ro said:


> Exactly, but for the future I think will reverse the order, facing first and than CNC. It would be easier.


Yes, I am plant manager of a Tool and Die factory in the United States and was definitely thinking if you face first and place holes no secondary Lathe operation would be neccesary.

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## workaholic_ro

18 Nov. 2019 update


----------



## FubarCle

workaholic_ro said:


> 18 Nov. 2019 update
> 
> View attachment 14636851


Sweet dial!

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## ptawee69

FubarCle said:


> Sweet dial!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


Very unique

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## meking

Love the lume shot. This looks great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## navman

I'm a sucker for Carbon fiber! Nice design.


----------



## Sonar

Awesome! I would love to be able to make something like this with my own hands

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G955F met Tapatalk


----------



## workaholic_ro

View attachment 14751695


----------



## workaholic_ro




----------



## Karriope

Is that the carbon frame mould you're machining there?


----------



## workaholic_ro

Mold, yes, but this one is for the carbon back, the exterior side. On the left is the cylinder used to compress the part inside of it.


----------



## workaholic_ro

I hope this would be more helpful:


----------



## Krispee

Very nice design and enjoying the walk through so far. The carbon fibre looks nice. How much room are you allowing for the thickness of the strap? I was mulling that over for my own watch and wasn't sure really. Ended up with just over 2mm, to be on the safe side. Will keep an eye on your progress. 
You mentioned making several pieces, are you planning to sell them then?


----------



## workaholic_ro

Krispee said:


> Very nice design and enjoying the walk through so far. The carbon fibre looks nice. How much room are you allowing for the thickness of the strap? I was mulling that over for my own watch and wasn't sure really. Ended up with just over 2mm, to be on the safe side. Will keep an eye on your progress.
> You mentioned making several pieces, are you planning to sell them then?


About 2 mm (actually 2.118 according to my 3D model) from springbar to body.
Yes, I will make a limited edition, hopefully soon.
Currently I'm working for an affordable pulmonary ventilator prototype hence my silence here on the forum.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Krispee said:


> Very nice design and enjoying the walk through so far. The carbon fibre looks nice. How much room are you allowing for the thickness of the strap? I was mulling that over for my own watch and wasn't sure really. Ended up with just over 2mm, to be on the safe side. Will keep an eye on your progress.
> You mentioned making several pieces, are you planning to sell them then?


About 2 mm (actually 2.118 according to my 3D model) from springbar to body.
Yes, I will make a limited edition, hopefully soon.
Currently I'm working for an affordable pulmonary ventilator prototype hence my silence here on the forum.


----------



## Krispee

workaholic_ro said:


> About 2 mm (actually 2.118 according to my 3D model) from springbar to body.
> Yes, I will make a limited edition, hopefully soon.
> Currently I'm working for an affordable pulmonary ventilator prototype hence my silence here on the forum.


Yeah, I'm about the same with the distance. All the best with your ventilator.

PS - I get the same with the double posting, or I would if I took notice of the site, which keeps telling me that there is something wrong with my post when I have already posted: weird.


----------



## FubarCle

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. All the best on the ventilator design. Somehow I think it will be a bit more complex then a few I have seen online. 

Sent from my SM-N976V using Tapatalk


----------



## TheBearded

I'm really diggin this design, but I'm a sucker for both bronze and carbon fiber. 

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Maybe I'll even be lucky enough to snag one up when they're produced.


----------



## workaholic_ro

Production pics:


----------



## ArchiMark

Wow!

Unique watch design and robust looking too.


----------



## workaholic_ro




----------



## TheBearded

workaholic_ro said:


> View attachment 16619829


Talk about a wait! I had forgotten I'd followed this thread. 

Looks pretty awesome man, hopefully we'll get some more pics soon!


----------



## Krispee

I see you finished it, well done, looks great.


----------



## sopapillas

These look great! Really unique material combination. What’s sort of pricing are you planning? These look to be properly hand made.


----------



## Roningrad

Glad I found this thread @workaholic_ro . Very intrigued and may be strongly inclined to grab one. Now, the price.


----------

