# Zenith Espada chronograph overview 1972-75 (ref. A7817 and 01.0040.418)



## sempervivens

*ZENITH ESPADA first and second series (1972-75): an overview*​
Here's a new thread, with the results of the research during the past few years concerning the Zenith Espada chronograph.

The Zenith Espada was the world's first automatic chronograph with full calendar and moonphase: an extraordinary watch.

Vintage Zenith collectors often have to rely on the Zenith "Bible" to find out more information: _'Zenith, Swiss watch manufacture since 1865'_ (Manfred Rössler). But unfortunately the information in Rössler is not always wholly exact and complete.

This also goes for the Zenith Espada: Rössler does mention the two existing references (ref. A7817 and 01.0040.418), but he doesn't mention any differences between them and he gives only one production number (and year): "300 items, produced in 1971".

More research was necessary. I was interested in the rare Espada chronograph, so I researched it a little further.

What could I do? I started with posting some questions on the forum regarding the production numbers and characteristics of the Espada chronograph.

Forum member Nicola1960 from Italy helped a lot to resolve these questions. Forum members John Chris and Gombrich also shared their knowledge and examples of ref. A7817 and 01.0040.418 chronographs.

A few key elements came from Zenith themselves, through their replies (years ago) to Italian forum members. The most important message was this one:

View attachment 968822


In English:
"_There were exactly produced :
300 pieces with engraved 3 numbers, a letter and 3 numbers" (this is an old style Zenith serial number) 
500 pieces with the reference 01.0040.418
They are all Espada's._"

Further research led to the conclusion that there are more differences between the first and second series:

- *different dials and crowns*: the first series Espada (ref. A7817) originally had the Zenith 5-pointed star logo on the dial and the 4-pointed star on the crown, whereas the second series Espada (ref. 01.0040.418) originally had the new square Zenith 'inverted star' logo on the dial and on the crown. However, dials and crowns can easily be swapped, and are in fact often renewed during service. A first series Espada may thus have received a second series dial and/or crown during service, and a second series Espada may have received a first series dial and/or crown during service.

- therefore *the different cases of the two series are the really distinctive feature*. A watch case may get polished during service, but it is normally not swapped.

It has already been mentioned in the mail by Mrs. Piccirilli above: the ref. A7817 had an old style serial number engraved, and the ref. 01.0040.418 instead had its model number.

Later I found out what the serial number of the Espada ref. A7817 was : it began with the number_* 322 E xxx*_.

However, these old style serial numbers were small, the engraving was done superficially and is easily polished out during service.

Fortunately there is a more obvious difference, and not so easy to polish away: *the first series Espada has a big 4-pointed Zenith star on the back, the second series Espada has a plain back.

*There are still more differences: the second series has the new model number and 'sub sea stainless steel' in big writing on the outer edge of the caseback, it has the new Zenith logo on the inside etc.: but you can see all the details in the following overview.

Since the *Movado Astronic* is similar to the Zenith Espada, I have also included it in the overview. However production numbers for the Astronic are unknown. You can often read the claim on the internet that there were "only 100" made of the Astronic, but I don't believe that, there are plenty of examples around, IMHO the Astronic is less rare than the Espada.

*So here are the pics:*​
*First series Zenith Espada (ref. A 7817, 300 pieces were produced in 1972):
*Outside :
View attachment 969898

Inside :
View attachment 969904


*First series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):*
Outside:
View attachment 969905

Inside:
View attachment 969906


*Conclusion* : the first series Zenith Espada and Movado Astronic both have *the Zenith star *on the caseback and both have on the inside the text "*MZ swiss made acier inoxydable modèle déposé NA 50038-11*".

The first series Movado Astronic caseback additionally has on the outside (on the outer edge) the writings "_super sub sea stainless steel 01.0010.436_"_,_ and on the inside the Movado logo and name were added.

The first series Zenith Espada's additionally has a Zenith serial number on the outside : "_322Exxx_". A few (even rarer) transitional Zenith Espada's of the first series also have the new Zenith model number "_01.0040.418_" engraved.

Note that the Zenith serial number and transitional model number for the first series Espada were engraved in small writing on the center part of the caseback (not in big writing on the outer edge as the Astronic and the second series Espada have it).

Two transitional samples of first series Zenith Espada's (ref. A7817) where you can see both the Zenith serial number and the new model number.










*Second series Zenith Espada (ref. 01.0040.418: 500 pieces were produced in 1973-75):
*Outside :









Inside:
View attachment 968838


*Second series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):
*Outside :








Inside :
N/A

*Conclusion*: the second series Zenith Espada and Movado Astronic both have *plain casebacks *(without the star).

Both have the text "_sub sea stainless steel_" and the model number in big writing: *01.0040.418* for the Espada and *01.0010.436 *for the Movado. Note that the model number for the Movado is now engraved on the center part of the caseback, whereas the model number for the Zenith is on the outer edge.

On the inside of the second series Espada we see the new square Zenith logo in small (positioned slightly above the center) and just below the center the writing *NR 50038-11. *This number is the same as in the first series Espada, which however in front has the letters NA instead of NR.

Production date:

There is no direct information available concerning the exact *production date *of the Espada. However through information from Zenith archives in an e-mail from Mrs. Piccirilli, it has been established that the Zenith El Primero ref. 01.0140.415 was produced in 1972. This El Primero has a similar case as the first series Espada and a similar serial number, which is _lower _than the serial number of the Zenith Espada chronograph.

This leads to the conclusion that the first series Zenith Espada chronograph was most likely not produced before *1972 *and probably not available in shops before 1973. The production date of the second series Zenith Espada (ref. 01.0040.418) can then be estimated : 1973-74.

Dials:

I have not shown any pictures of the dials (or crowns), since these cannot be relied upon to distinguish the first and second series Espada.

However, in this Zenith Espada overview I should include at least one pic of the front, so, on the occasion of its 41st birthday, here is a pic of a Zenith Espada ref. A7817.

View attachment 968830


The above research was mainly done by myself and Nicola1960, and I thank Nicola for that.


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## Stewart H

Nice piece of research, well presented. |>

Why, oh why did they have to go down the hideous route they took in the 2000s?


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## nicola1960

Bravissimo ! :-!


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## Hartmut Richter

I can only second that! You should write up all that stuff (this and previous material) and hand it in as a Ph.D. thesis - I am sure it would get accepted!

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> Bravissimo ! :-!




Thanks go to you, Nicola, and also to the other O & P forum members who have contributed their pictures.

Thank you Stewart and Hartmut, you're very kind.

PS I had to edit the post as some pics had disappeared. I now used MMMD's fine pics for the first series Movado Astronic: thanks.


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## D N Ravenna

Good job my friend. Thanks for posting all of your hard work!

Dan


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## 31 Jewels

Semper, how about crowns? Any conclusive (solid info) on which one is exact for the first series Espada? 
Other than the (correct crown, which is important for value), it looks like we can put this baby to bed now. 
The 100 produced Astronic claim is something that is still up in the air as far as facts go. 
I wont rule out that its not a possibilty though, given the rarity of both watches. Good work. 31


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## BlondeNV

I am better versed on Zenith because of posts like this.

Thank you.


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## sempervivens

Thank you Dan, 31 and BlondeNV. Writing it all down was a bit of work, but definitely worth it.

One more observation...:






The bracelet of this Espada is dated 4473 (= week 44 1973 ) = 29 October 1973 - 4 November 1973.

It is the oldest original bracelet I've seen on an Espada so far.

Three other Espada bracelets belonging to forum members date to 1974-75: one Espada ref. A7817 with bracelet 1874, and two Espada's ref. 01.0040.418 with bracelets 5174 and 1275.

We also know that this first series Movado Astronic with original papers was sold in the U.S. on 21st September 1974:

View attachment 972328

(Astronic picture by MMMD)

All these dates confirm that the Zenith Espada was sold in the 1973-75 period.

It was however a period of crisis: the 1973 oil crisis added to the quartz crisis.

Zenith by that time was already in the hands of a foreign company.

In 1974, the ZRC (Zenith Radio Corporation) ordered Zenith to stop the production of mechanical watchmovements.

Fortunately the cal. 3019 PHF was revived ten years later (together with the 'El Primero' cal. 3019 PHC).

From 1985-86 onwards the movement was renamed "cal. 410".

From 1994-95 onwards, Zenith brought out a new collection, called the "Chronomaster", which became a success.

Now, 40 years after its birth, the Zenith Espada chronograph, the world's first automatic chronograph with full calendar and moonphase, remains a "Holy Grail", a rare collector's item.


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## io8194

Very nice pic! Some weeks ago i just bought this famous watch. A very rare transition model! Do you know how many models were produced? A photo of my caseback was inserted in this great pic. 
Here is the pic that i posted on O e P. 
Nuovo arrivo: Zenith Espada fasi di luna
comments are welcome....!!!


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## sempervivens

Thank you for the photo of your caseback!

Who knows how many "transitional" casebacks there were of the first series Espada. Maybe 100 ?

Congratulations with yours: looks great, very good condition.


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## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> ...Two transitional samples of first series Zenith Espada's (ref. A7817) where you can see both the Zenith serial number and the new model number.


;-)


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## 31 Jewels

I finally believe now. I had a feeling that was the crown that matched the Zenith star on the dial, and it does. 
Case back is confirmed to me too now. 
I still have to wonder how many Astronics lost their mechanical lives to become an Espada? 
Now that we have this Espada riddle solved, lets try to figure out the whole story on the Astronic, since that watch it just as relevant. 31


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## sempervivens

As a footnote to this thread, here is a small gallery of Espada's, which all have in common that there is something wrong with them.

Some would call these 'fakes' or 'frankens'. Yet some of these consist of all original parts.

But regardless how you want to call them, one thing they all have in common: these were not made (like that) by Zenith in 1972-74.

Not surprisingly, they also have in common that none of the sellers mentioned what was wrong with them.

Caveat emptor... If you're interested in the Espada, you could consider this as a small guide what _not _to buy.

Mind you : they may _all _be worth their money anyway, if you buy them for their parts (such as the movements, dials, cases, hands...), but then you should be aware what you're buying, and these should not qualify as the real collector's items.

So here we go...








An Espada in a wrong case (it is a Zenith case, but belonging to a ref. 01.0210.415 El Primero). The chronograph seconds hand is also wrong.








Wrong colour day and month disk. The original 3019 PHF day and month disks are dark blue with white letters, not white with black letters (these probably belong to a cal. 410). This could simply be a result of service, but it is still something to look out for.









This has the wrong hands, belonging to an A783 El Primero (which has a similar dial as the Espada, but different hands). It may be the result of service, yet it is something one should be aware of. Unfortunately this sample made it into the sticky https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/over...tainless-steel-models-1969-1975-a-586997.html








Two different examples of Espada's with mutilated cases. Some people clearly found the Espada case too heavy, and decided to cut their way through the steel, thus uncovering the normally hidden lugs.








Another picture of the first watch in the previous picture.








Another Espada with a mutilated case. Almost nice, looks a lot lighter like that  Pity that it has the wrong seconds hand too.








Never mind the little red circle (meant to highlight the small star of a first series Espada dial): this one has a wrong colour hand in the hour counter (red instead of blue). This could be the least of all evils.








This on the contrary is evil, because it looks all original, a second series Espada in perfect condition. Yet it was sold by a big seller for a reasonable price and he didn't advertise it as NOS. Normally a big seller like that could have asked twice as much for such a rare watch in such a good condition. But he didn't. Because he knew it was not a new old stock watch, it didn't come from a watchmaker's shop who never sold it (otherwise he would have advertised it as new old stock). How is it then possible that it is in such perfect, unused condition? Because of a well-known evil in the watch collector's world: this watch was assembled using new old stock parts. What gives it away, is its condition, which is too good to be true, and the fact that it was not advertised as NOS, and its movement: a cal. 41.0, which was made in 1985-86. Seeing the unused condition of the watch, the movement was not swapped as a result of service. This Espada was simply not made by Zenith in 1972-74. It was assembled with unused parts after 1985.








Here is another example, with the same characteristics as the previous. It looks like a second series Espada in perfect condition. This also was sold by a big seller. Although in perfect condition, he didn't sell it as a NOS at a double price, which such a rare watch in such good condition should command, but on the contrary, it was quickly sold for a very reasonable price (you could even say: at parts value). Again it is clearly in perfect, unused condition, because this watch was assembled using new old stock parts. What gives it away, is its condition (too good to be true), the fact that it was not a NOS (and the seller never claimed it was), and the wrong combination of dial and case: a first series dial in a second series case. Seeing the unused condition of the watch, it has never been serviced and so the dial was not swapped as a result of service. This therefore was not made by Zenith in 1972-74. It was assembled in the 1980's or later with the use of spare parts.








This last example may be original, but the case appears to have been sandblasted.

Caveat emptor !


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the write up. It should warn anyone on the hunt for these - they seem to be getting scarcer all the time (with another disappearing off the market only a day or so ago).....

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thanks for the write up.
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you, Dan and Hartmut. This forum is very fortunate to have two excellent moderators. Thank you for making a difference.

Ingratitude, scorn and disbelief are my usual fee. But lo and behold, I have already received my reward: 'tis a fine and rare Zenith Espada, https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/mountain-joy-zenith-espada-chronograph-second-series-844949.html.



Hartmut Richter said:


> It should warn anyone on the hunt for these - they seem to be getting scarcer all the time (with another disappearing off the market only a day or so ago).....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Since in this overview we've mentioned the Movado Astronic before, here are a few pics of the Astronic first and second series.

*First series*:
The dial has the Movado logo. 














Back is as described above (read the beginning of this thread):














*Second series*:
The dial has the new Zenith logo (square, inverted star):














Back is as described above (read the beginning of this thread); note that the inside is the same as the Zenith Espada second series (the Movado name and logo were not added any more):














As for the *production number* of the Movado Astronic, there are many people who would like to believe that there were "only 100 made". It is an example of a mistake which originated somewhere and then was copied by so many others. This guy for example even thinks he owns #36 out of 100: https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/rare...c-hs-360-super-sub-sea-mens-watch-732385.html

So I've made a little more serious estimate of the production number of the Movado Astronic, by comparing the Movado Astronic with another beautiful and respectable vintage chronograph: the vintage Heuer Monaco. The estimate for the vintage Heuer Monaco is that about 5000 were made, across all dials and movements, between 1969 and 1975 (see BOOK REVIEW: Richard Crosthwaite's "Heuer Monaco - Design Classic" - HODINKEE - Wristwatch News, Reviews, & Original Stories). I did a search among completed listings on ebay to see how many vintage Heuer Monaco's were sold (or were available for sale) during the past 3-4 months: I found five. Then I did a search among completed listings how many Movado Astronics were sold during the past 3-4 months: I found four. 

This leads to an estimate of a total of 4000 Astronics made.

To make a more accurate estimate, one should follow it up over a longer period of time. But I'm not worried about the exact number. I'm not saying there were exactly 4000 Astronics made. It could very well have been for instance 3600. What matters is that I'm certain that the Astronics were made in their thousands. They are not rare.

Unlike the Zenith Espada: by making a total of only 800 Espada's (first and second series together), Zenith kept the Espada a very exclusive item.

To put it in other words: you can buy an Astronic (or a Monaco) every month, but you can buy only one Espada in a year.


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## sempervivens

sempervivens said:


> I've made a little more serious estimate of the production number of the Movado Astronic, by comparing the Movado Astronic with another beautiful and respectable vintage chronograph: the vintage Heuer Monaco. The estimate for the vintage Heuer Monaco is that about 5000 were made, across all dials and movements, between 1969 and 1975 (see BOOK REVIEW: Richard Crosthwaite's "Heuer Monaco - Design Classic" - HODINKEE - Wristwatch News, Reviews, & Original Stories). I did a search among completed listings on ebay to see how many vintage Heuer Monaco's were sold (or were available for sale) during the past 3-4 months: I found five. Then I did a search among completed listings how many Movado Astronics were sold during the past 3-4 months: I found four.
> 
> This leads to an estimate of a total of 4000 Astronics made.


The first four months of the year aren't over yet, and a 5th Astronic has popped up for sale. I also have to add that I have doubts that only 5000 Heuer Monaco's were made, across all dials and movements: that is only an estimate, and probably a modest one.

My own estimate for the production number of Astronics should be revised upwards accordingly. I'm thinking 5000 now. 

But the exact number doesn't matter: what matters is that the Astronics were certainly made in their thousands. Seeing how many Astronics come up for sale regularly, it is obvious they are not rare. 

Additionally, I've read the opinion of a watchmaker who used to work for Movado USA. Based on the number of Astronics that came in for service, he also said that the Astronics must have been made in their thousands.

Please, Astronic fans, don't worry: this shouldn't affect value much. Nobody believed the '100' estimate anyway. And look at the vintage Heuer Monaco's, they are not rare either.


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## MMMD

sempervivens said:


> My own estimate for the production number of Astronics should be revised upwards accordingly. I'm thinking 5000 now.
> 
> ...Please, Astronic fans, don't worry: this shouldn't affect value much. Nobody believed the '100' estimate anyway. And look at the vintage Heuer Monaco's, they are not rare either.


Well, every academic or pseudo-academic pursuit needs its outside-the-mainstream thinkers to spur debate, so hats off to you. At least I've got my super-rare Espada to hedge my investment if the market takes your view and Astronic prices plunge even lower. But so do a lot of other collectors, it would seem... some even have two. Strange I don't see a lot of Astronics posted on this or other watch forums, but it's probably just the mall watch stigma and not scarcity that is keeping them all 5000 of them off the forum threads.


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## sempervivens

MMMD said:


> Well, every academic or pseudo-academic pursuit needs its outside-the-mainstream thinkers to spur debate, so hats off to you. At least I've got my super-rare Espada to hedge my investment if the market takes your view and Astronic prices plunge even lower. But so do a lot of other collectors, it would seem... some even have two. Strange I don't see a lot of Astronics posted on this or other watch forums, but it's probably just the mall watch stigma and not scarcity that is keeping them all 5000 of them off the forum threads.


Scorn and disbelief are my usual fee ;-)

Time will tell.

I'm sorry to say though that I don't agree either that the Espada is "super-rare".

The Espada, with less than a thousand made, is rare.

But to qualify as "very rare", there shouldn't be more than a 100 made.

So if you feel like Goldfinger / Dr. Evil, the Luna Luxe should be the one for you:








Zenith ref. G20809, 18 K yellow gold with yellow gold bracelet, only 61 were made.


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## Hessu

Gotta say, these old ones beat 100-nil the modern versions of El Primero (which are alarmingly full of yuppie ..... Sorry boys, but this had to be said. New ones do not come even close with class and style! Oh, why cant they see at the factory, they're taking it over the limit with star-logoed oscillating weight etc. The pure class has not to be seen by even the most untrained eye.) Semper, you lucky bastard, you are on to something big here with your collection. Just love 'em, sadly I do not have even one, yet, but I will.


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## MMMD

sempervivens said:


> So if you feel like Goldfinger / Dr. Evil, the Luna Luxe should be the one for you...


At last we are in full agreement about something.  I feel some regret about not joining the hunt for the Luna Luxe recently auctioned in NYC. It's on my list...


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## Hartmut Richter

Oh, I'm quite happy with my ChronoMaster SS silver dial Cal. 410! It has a 1950s tricompax look about it.

Hartmut Richter


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## 31 Jewels

sempervivens said:


> The first four months of the year aren't over yet, and a 5th Astronic has popped up for sale. I also have to add that I have doubts that only 5000 Heuer Monaco's were made, across all dials and movements: that is only an estimate, and probably a modest one.
> 
> My own estimate for the production number of Astronics should be revised upwards accordingly. I'm thinking 5000 now.
> 
> But the exact number doesn't matter: what matters is that the Astronics were certainly made in their thousands. Seeing how many Astronics come up for sale regularly, it is obvious they are not rare.
> 
> Additionally, I've read the opinion of a watchmaker who used to work for Movado USA. Based on the number of Astronics that came in for service, he also said that the Astronics must have been made in their thousands.
> 
> Please, Astronic fans, don't worry: this shouldn't affect value much. Nobody believed the '100' estimate anyway. And look at the vintage Heuer Monaco's, they are not rare either.


Astronic fans dont have to worry because i'm putting this on the record. 
I dont buy anything you have said here. I think you are way off and your estimate is to high.

It just clouds the forum with "another" (estimate) that is... "just your opinion based on ZERO facts."

Saying what you have said here Semper is as bad as someone claiming 100 were made.

If your going to ask me how many Astronics i "think" were made, 
my answer is "I dont know." 
Reason: because there is nothing concrete to support any estimate yet. Ebay, ex Movado watchmakers and Heuer sale count stands to show (nothing) to support any claim.

Astronic Fan 31


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## sempervivens

31 Jewels said:


> Astronic fans dont have to worry because i'm putting this on the record. I dont buy anything you have said here. I think you are way off and your estimate is to high. It just clouds the forum with "another" (estimate) that is... "just your opinion based on ZERO facts. Saying what you have said here Semper is as bad as someone claiming 100 were made. "


Your contribution would be appreciated. But you're not contributing. You only say that you don't agree. 
It is ok to criticise, but you should try to provide an alternative, be constructive instead of only criticising. 
Claiming that only 100 were made is absurd. I have criticised that, and I have given an alternative. 
Based on the fact of the many Astronics around, there is no denying there were thousands of Astronics made.



> If your going to ask me how many Astronics i "think" were made, my answer is "I dont know."
> Reason: because there is nothing concrete to support any estimate yet. Ebay, ex Movado watchmakers and Heuer sale count stands to show (nothing) to support any claim.
> Astronic Fan 31


There is no reasonable argument possible with a fan.

Saying "I don't know" is too easy here. I also "don't know": I don't know whether there were 3000 or 5000 made; but I know there were thousands made.

*We all have made our point, so please let's end it here.* Let's move on. Go and start a Movado forum, if you want to discuss further about Movado.



> At last we are in full agreement about something.  I feel some regret about not joining the hunt for the Luna Luxe recently auctioned in NYC.


_Goldfinger, 
he's the man,
the man with Midas' touch
A spider's touch
Such a cold finger
beckons you..._

;-)



> Gotta say, these old ones beat 100-nil the modern versions of El Primero (which are alarmingly full of yuppie ..... Sorry boys, but this had to be said. New ones do not come even close with class and style! Oh, why cant they see at the factory, they're taking it over the limit with star-logoed oscillating weight etc. The pure class has not to be seen by even the most untrained eye.) Semper, you lucky bastard, you are on to something big here with your collection. Just love 'em, sadly I do not have even one, yet, but I will.


I wish you good luck, Hessu. Keep your eyes open. Seeing how the Espada's were distributed over many European countries, there must be one in Finland for you.


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## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Oh, I'm quite happy with my ChronoMaster SS silver dial Cal. 410! It has a 1950s tricompax look about it. Hartmut Richter


Here is a pic of a Zenith tri-compax, together with the Zenith Espada.









Universal Genève has made a lot of tri-compaxes, but you won't see many Zenith tri-compax' around.

Oops...what am I saying. :-x This is a dangerous road to take.

There are quite a few UG fans, and there is a lack of UG forums, so I'm not going to estimate here how many UG tri-compax' were made as compared to Zenith tri-compax' ;-)

As described here https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/short-history-martel-watch-co-zenith-chronographs-660565.html, the Tri-compax and the Espada were both created by the same people: Martel watch co = the Pellaton-family.









René-Philippe - Georges - Raoul - Georges (jr.) Pellaton

Here is a pic of the beautiful tri-compax movement :








And here are a couple of pictures of the Zenith Espada first series (left) and second series (right) :















And their backsides:
First series:








This caseback has been scoured in the past, but you can still see the faint remains of the Zenith serial number 322Exxx in the center below the tip of the star.

Second series back:









Good luck finding one of these!


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> *We all have made our point, so please let's end it here.* Let's move on. Go and start a Movado forum, if you want to discuss further about Movado.


I can only second (and third...and fourth...) that. Unless we want this thread to go the way of its predecessor (i.e. have the lock put on!), I would also say that production numbers have been discussed to an exhaustive degree.

In hope (expectation?) of your cooperation,

Hartmut Richter


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## 31 Jewels

Hartmut. It happens to be a matter of opinion and that warrants a lock? 
I did contribute an excellent case, and i'm saying that there is nothing that supports sempers claim. 
Peace out. 31


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## sempervivens

For once I agree with 31 j. : a lock was not warranted.

What's the point of having a forum, if you can't have a little discussion.

_You're only making it worse for yourself!
_








_Making it worse?! How could it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!_


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## Hartmut Richter

Well, a discussion is perfectly OK, but most discussions peter out in the end. When it gets to the point where both parties simply keep saying "No, I'm right because [*once more stating their arguments for the umpteenth time*]", there is no point in keeping the discussion open - the logical conclusion has been reached. Or am I missing something?!

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

sempervivens said:


> For once I agree with 31 j. : a lock was not warranted.
> 
> What's the point of having a forum, if you can't have a little discussion.
> 
> _You're only making it worse for yourself!
> _
> 
> _Making it worse?! How could it be worse?! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!_


One of my favorite movies. You do realize that Hartmut and I talk. When he and I start to agree independently from each other that a thread needs locking, well, it gets locked. I get into enough "discussions" at work, with my family, friends, and with so-called friends. I certainly hope to avoid these in such a genial forum as this. There is a wealth of things to discuss. The discussion of how many were or were not made has reached a long, drawn out draw. Please move on before, as in the case of the Holy Grail, I have to use a very large stone (my editing skills are poor otherwise I would show the above scene a couple of minutes later). Many thanks as always to all contributors. This forum would not be where it is without you. Dan


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## sempervivens

Another interesting "Zenith Espada" surfaced on ebay, however it is one for the gallery of fakes and frankens:

































Notice that: 
the main hands are completely wrong; 
the small hands are also wrong for the minute counter (too thick) and hour counter (wrong colour) ;
the day and month disk are wrong (white instead of dark blue);
the top pusher is wrong;
the buckle for the bracelet is wrong;

But it gets worse. 
Notice that the dial is in excellent condition. It even has the black colour for the inserts in the hour markers. This is a service replacement dial, it mentions '. swiss made .' whereas the original has 'swiss made T'; but that's not the issue here. The tachymeter is also unusually perfect. 
The perfect dial arouses suspicion. And with good reason: this watch never was an Espada, it was born as a Movado Astronic, as can be seen from the engraving on the back. The model number for the Zenith Espada second series is on the outer edge and it is *01.0040.418*. The model number for the Movado Astronic second series is engraved on the center part of the caseback and it is *01.0010.436.
*Clearly "somebody" changed the rotor and the dial in an absolutely silly effort to create a Zenith Espada.


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## 31 Jewels

I have been watching this one. Last week, I think the bids got up to $2250.00 U.S.D. Without question a pile of mixed pieces. I will say that these are getting value able enough to warrant spending the money just for a parts watch. And, another Astronic taken out of the count. 31


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## sempervivens

​Bidding went up to $3.200,00 last week, but it wasn't enough to meet the seller's reserve. It's a shame about the Astronic, but

there are still Astronics left: on average there is one Movado Astronic for sale on ebay per month. 



31 Jewels said:


> I have been watching this one. Last week, I think the bids got up to $2250.00 U.S.D. Without question a pile of mixed pieces. I will say that these are getting value able enough to warrant spending the money just for a parts watch. And, another Astronic taken out of the count. 31



​



​


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> ...but it wasn't enough to meet the seller's reserve.


Glad that noone got that cobbled piece of trash in the end! It really made my stomach heave somewhat. What a pity, what a waste.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

Hartmut Richter said:


> Glad that noone got that cobbled piece of trash in the end! It really made my stomach heave somewhat. What a pity, what a waste.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I agree!!!

Dan


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## 31 Jewels

sempervivens said:


> ​Bidding went up to $3.200,00 last week, but it wasn't enough to meet the seller's reserve. It's a shame about the Astronic, but
> 
> there are still Astronics left: on average there is one Movado Astronic for sale on ebay per month.
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> 
> 
> ​


Wow! A very value able parts watch. Someone could be buying it for its parts? I Hope So! People are spending thousands for vintage Rolex Daytonas and (parts). Let Zenith shine I say! 31


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## 31 Jewels

Lets look at this another way. Sooner or later we have to embrace the Astronic. Its part of watch history that without it, would not have given us our Espada. Given that we don't really know how many are out there, floods, fire, earthquakes, lost, hacker watchmakers, Zenith Espada makers, having the pair makes them worth more. My Lejour Flygraph shares the same situation with Yema. Many Lejours suffered the same mechanical fate. These two get along great because they can relate to each other  31


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## georges zaslavsky

excellent thread for a lovely watch:-!


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## sempervivens

sempervivens said:


> Since in this overview we've mentioned the Movado Astronic before, here are a few pics of the Astronic first and second series.
> 
> *First series*:
> The dial has the Movado logo.
> Back is as described above (read the beginning of this thread):
> 
> *Second series*:
> The dial has the new Zenith logo (square, inverted star):
> Back is as described above (read the beginning of this thread); note that the inside is the same as the Zenith Espada second series (the Movado name and logo were not added any more):
> 
> As for the *production number* of the Movado Astronic, ...
> 
> I ...estimate the production number of the Movado Astronic, by comparing the Movado Astronic with ...the vintage Heuer Monaco. The estimate for the vintage Heuer Monaco is that about 5000 were made, across all dials and movements, between 1969 and 1975 (see BOOK REVIEW: Richard Crosthwaite's "Heuer Monaco - Design Classic" - HODINKEE - Wristwatch News, Reviews, & Original Stories). I did a search among completed listings on ebay to see how many vintage Heuer Monaco's were sold (or were available for sale) during the past 3-4 months: I found five. Then I did a search among completed listings how many Movado Astronics were sold during the past 3-4 months: I found four. This leads to an estimate of a total of 4000 Astronics made.
> 
> *To make a more accurate estimate, one should follow it up over a longer period of time*. .... I'm not saying there were exactly 4000 Astronics made. It could very well have been for instance 3600. What matters is that I'm certain that the Astronics were made in their thousands. They are not rare. Unlike the Zenith Espada: by making a total of only 800 Espada's (first and second series together), Zenith kept the Espada ... exclusive. To put it in other words: you can buy an Astronic (or a Monaco) every month, but you can buy only one Espada in a year.


I've followed this up by keeping track of every Movado Astronic for sale on Ebay during the past year.

Here are the results:

There were 14 different Astronics for sale on Ebay in 2013, an average of 1,17 per month.

Compare this with the Omega Marine Chronometer (megaquartz): 9000 were made in 1974-75. On average 2 to 3 Omega Marine chronometers are for sale on Ebay per month => approx. between 3000 and 4500 Astronics were made.

Compare the number of Astronics spotted with the Zenith Espada: 800 were made and only 3 were for sale on ebay in 2013 => approximately 3733 Astronics were made.

=> *Conclusion: approximately 3750 Astronics were made.*

Among the 14 Astronics spotted in 2013, there were 6 first series, 8 second series Astronics => like the Zenith Espada, there are more second series than first series.

Zenith Espada first series: 300 were made, Espada second series: 500 were made; if the ratio for the Movado Astronic is the same (3:5):

=> approximately 1400 first series Movado Astronics were made in 1972/73, and 2350 second series in 1974/75.

Note that for the Astronics with original bracelet: all first series Astronics had Movado signed bracelets, but all second series Astronics had Zenith signed bracelets.

Merry Christmas to everyone and peace to men of goodwill.


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## sempervivens

A small warning for folks interested in the Zenith Espada:

the fake Espada which was sold from Portugal last year, has surfaced again and is now for sale from California.









Notice that: 
the main hands are wrong; 
the small hands are wrong for the minute counter (too thick) and hour counter (wrong colour) ;
the day and month disk are wrong (white instead of dark blue);
the top pusher is wrong (too small);
the buckle for the bracelet is wrong;

But what is worse: this watch never was an Espada, it was born as a Movado Astronic, as can be seen from the engraving on the back. Somebody swapped the Movado dial for a Zenith dial.

Remember:

The model number for the Zenith Espada (second series) is on the outer edge of the caseback and it is 01.0040.418.

The model number for the Movado Astronic second series is on the center part of the caseback and it is 01.0010.436.









This watch clearly started life as a Movado Astronic.

Therefore, what it requires is a new Movado Astronic dial, and new hands.


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the warning! Looks like the new owner got wise and is trying to minimise his losses now.....:roll:

Hartmut Richter


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## 31 Jewels

I saw that silly thing again last week. 

I'm with Semper. Just buy a Astronic dial and hand set, if those could even be found and...... "keep it real"

I have a spare Movado Astronic bracelet he could buy to wrap it up, but I cant help him on the dark blue calendar wheels to finish it.

Does he post a movement picture? 


31


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## hronos

Hi everyone
I want present to you another item of Zenith Espada El Primero full calendar first series.

















Crown is no logo, but the thread works well and I guess that this is an original crown of the first series.
Only notice that second hand is not original. The number of the tailgate is almost deleted by polishing, but still recognizable
My attempts for restoration in a regional official service for the time being without success. From headquarters of Zenith refuse to send the necessary parts. Everything works fine, but I have problems with the Setting Lever parts, and I want to buy original second hand.


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## Hartmut Richter

Is it my imagination or do the pushers not quite match? The lower one seems to be slightly fatter than the upper one.....

Good luck with getting it restored anyway.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Congratulations, beautiful first series Zenith Espada, looking good.









Pushers are original IMHO.

The crystal also looks original, and original tachymeter as well.

The central seconds hand is not original as you already know.

The original crown would have had a logo, but it seems you got a good replacement crown.

It's nice that it still has the serial number on the back.

Thanks for posting and wear it in good health!


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## hronos

Pushers are well in my opinion.
Does anyone have a technical scheme with part numbers to be able to order spare parts that I need.


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## Hartmut Richter

Ranfft has the technical sheet from Boley for the Cal. 3019 PHC (Cal. 400 in modern terms) but I think it has a section on the 3019 PHF too:

bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Zenith 3019PHF El Primero

Download it through the link on that page.

Hartmut Richter


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## hronos

Thank you very much this is useful
Module on day date month moon phase Cal. 3019 PHF exactly the same you with Cal. 410, or a difference underneath the dial?


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## Hartmut Richter

As far as I know, the Cal. 410 and the 3019 PHF are identical under the dial. The main difference is Kif rather than Incabloc shock proofing; on the 410Z, there are also some changes in the escapement (lever and escapement gear).

Hartmut Richter


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## medinatalzahra

CALLING ZENITH SCHOLARS....

I am member of OF and a Zenith collector, and I have just joined Watchuseek to get some guidance from Sempervivens and others. I have a transitional first series Espada, and some questions about it. Zenith star on the caseback, both a first series serial number and a second series number on the caseback. So, it is clearly first series. I purchased the watch from Antiquorum last year in the November auction. Interestingly, the watch has a second series dial and crown, both in very good condition. My question for the forum is do you think these are original to the watch or replaced? The case is in good condition, and, my experience is that the dials on the 781, 782, 783, 7817, tend to stay in good condition over time. So, I am reluctant to just jump to the conclusion that this is a service dial (although that is certainly possible). I will post photos tomorrow, but I wanted to get everyone's thoughts..... 
Thanks! M


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## sempervivens

IMHO it is a service dial. Even if the original dial did not show much wear (the colour of the subdials is prone to ageing) this may easily have happened during a service. The tachymeter also is prone to ageing and may have been replaced. 

Looking forward to the photos and congratulations btw.


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## medinatalzahra

Sempervivens- Thanks for the feedback. I have attached some photos. Particularly looking at the fading of the Tachy, I think you maybe right. I would be curious if other owners of these rare transitional Espadas could provide additional confirmation. I have a mint 1st series dial and crown (which were not inexpensive) that I could have swapped out on servicing; but I certainly wouldn’t want to change them if these are, in fact, original. Any additional thoughts/perspective would be most welcome. M


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## sempervivens

The service crown is an additional indication that the dial was swapped during service. You were lucky if you found a first series dial and crown! Those are rare parts I think. Congratulations again on a historic masterpiece of watchmaking.


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## medinatalzahra

SV- Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful.
M


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