# What's going on with the El Primero?



## FlightQualified

Edit: Looks like the used market is pegged upwards for whatever reason. I'm personally not buying into it, the servicing costs are simply too high. I find it funny some folks are taking advantage of this and selling for likely more than their acquisition costs now! Mind boggling..

I've been looking at the 38mm El Primero for over a year now, and am thinking about pulling the trigger on it, as I don't have a chrono yet, and the Speedy is simply too big for me. I love the design of the El Primero, but the only thing that gets me is when I looked at it at an AD, the "1" on the "13" in the date was almost off the dial, otherwise I probably would have pulled the trigger:










Now that I'm looking at it again, the ADs around me seem to be out of stock on it, and can't order it. Is this thing really going away? I saw the MSRP jumped from 7100 to 8200 (on bracelet) and now it's out of stock. I'm hoping this is a temporary thing as I want to check it out in person again at some point.


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## fskywalker

t60 said:


> I've been looking at the 38mm El Primero for over a year now, and am thinking about pulling the trigger on it, as I don't have a chrono yet, and the Speedy is simply too big for me. I love the design of the El Primero, but the only thing that gets me is when I looked at it at an AD, the "1" on the "13" in the date was almost off the dial, otherwise I probably would have pulled the trigger:
> 
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> Now that I'm looking at it again, the ADs around me seem to be out of stock on it, and can't order it. Is this thing really going away? I saw the MSRP jumped from 7100 to 8200 (on bracelet) and now it's out of stock. I'm hoping this is a temporary thing as I want to check it out in person again at some point.


Look around, there should be inventory around at various AD's, plus some additional pieces here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## wrxdev

Content edited in line with forum sticky:









Discussion of pricing for the US market: please read


Dear Zenith Forum Members, May we ask that we please discuss AD discounting via PM or Email from this point forward? Same request regarding grey market pricing and/or references. There are so many factors that are involved in price setting and discounting, some of which can have a very...




www.watchuseek.com





Hartmut Richter


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## wrxdev

wrxdev said:


> Content edited in line with forum sticky:
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> Discussion of pricing for the US market: please read
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> Dear Zenith Forum Members, May we ask that we please discuss AD discounting via PM or Email from this point forward? Same request regarding grey market pricing and/or references. There are so many factors that are involved in price setting and discounting, some of which can have a very...
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> www.watchuseek.com
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> Hartmut Richter


I apologize and I will be mindful moving forward.


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## DesmoIsland

t60 said:


> I've been looking at the 38mm El Primero for over a year now, and am thinking about pulling the trigger on it, as I don't have a chrono yet, and the Speedy is simply too big for me. I love the design of the El Primero, but the only thing that gets me is when I looked at it at an AD, the "1" on the "13" in the date was almost off the dial, otherwise I probably would have pulled the trigger:
> 
> 
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> 
> Now that I'm looking at it again, the ADs around me seem to be out of stock on it, and can't order it. Is this thing really going away? I saw the MSRP jumped from 7100 to 8200 (on bracelet) and now it's out of stock. I'm hoping this is a temporary thing as I want to check it out in person again at some point.


I am hearing that the 38mm as we know it will be retired this year. New models (with the 1/10th chrono) will be introduced in 2021. The caliber 400 apparently will not go forward.


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## FlightQualified

Interesting. Any idea if they will up the size? 38mm is my sweet spot for a chrono, and if it's really gone I guess I'll be making some calls shortly..


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## Nathan356

I read this same rumor on other forums as well but this is the first I have heard that multiple ADs say it cannot be ordered. The other part of the rumor is that the Chronomaster 2 will be the replacement, which is already on sale and is 42mm. Hopefully they will make a 38mm version of that watch as the movement does seem to be a significant advancement compared to the Cal 400.


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## wzm4114

I thought they were moving the 38 to 39mm and other changes to the dial - no step down on the sub-dials and smaller text, no star on chrono hand but lume rectangle etc. The leather strap option on their website shows a picture.

I'd be surprised to see them not offer a smaller version of their chronometer line going forward as I'm pretty sure this is their best selling model.

Interesting if they're discontinuing the 400 though...

My opinion is that Zenith is fairly bad at communicating news and changes.


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## p_mmk

Love this watch and seems it pops up less and less in the pre-owned market. Hope they don't get rid of the star on the chrono hands as I just think it adds so much to the watch.


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## Hartmut Richter

wzm4114 said:


> Interesting if they're discontinuing the 400 though...


I don't think that they are discontinuing the Cal. 400, they are probably discontinuing this model with the Cal. 400.

Hartmut Richter


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## Nathan356

wzm4114 said:


> I thought they were moving the 38 to 39mm and other changes to the dial - no step down on the sub-dials and smaller text, no star on chrono hand but lume rectangle etc. The leather strap option on their website shows a picture.
> 
> I'd be surprised to see them not offer a smaller version of their chronometer line going forward as I'm pretty sure this is their best selling model.
> 
> Interesting if they're discontinuing the 400 though...
> 
> My opinion is that Zenith is fairly bad at communicating news and changes.


Great catch! I've posted the new design and the old design from their website. I also noticed the new design looks like it has the smaller crown of some of their other EP models. Although, the case size still looks like 38mm to me, I can't see any difference in the case. Maybe this will be a transitional model?


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## Roningrad

DesmoIsland said:


> I am hearing that the 38mm as we know it will be retired this year. New models (with the 1/10th chrono) will be introduced in 2021. The caliber 400 apparently will not go forward.


Wow. Thanks for letting us know. If there are indications of this occurring, it may be best to pick up one now.


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## FlightQualified

Nathan356 said:


> Great catch! I've posted the new design and the old design from their website. I also noticed the new design looks like it has the smaller crown of some of their other EP models. Although, the case size still looks like 38mm to me, I can't see any difference in the case. Maybe this will be a transitional model?


Oh thanks for posting the photos, I didn't even notice they had the two models posted. I was only interested in the steel so never bothered to look at the leather close-up. It's interesting to see they removed the star on the second hand, but more intrigued that they updated to a smaller crown (which I particularly like). Maybe I"ll wait..


Roningrad said:


> Wow. Thanks for letting us know. If there are indications of this occurring, it may be best to pick up one now.


Great if you really love the outgoing model, but honestly the resale on these are so bad you have to be ready to swallow the depreciation if you end up having to flip it. I've looked at a bunch of vintage El Primeros and the "best" way to own one is used, but the problem is you'll be stuck with any servicing costs, which basically need to happen every 5 years. This was the only thing really holding me back from pulling the trigger. Zenith SC is hit or miss (especially state side) and I don't really feel like ponying ~1k (service costs + shipping) every 5-7 years to keep it maintained. While I love the movement and history of Zenith, I just can't justify the costs, even for the more complicated movement.

(Not to mention I had a very disappointing visit at an LV store last year, and when I was reminded that Zenith was acquired by LVMH it put a very sour taste in my mouth..)


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## FlightQualified

And one more thing I've noticed..if you want to "stay true" to the original, the second hand did not have a star on the end of it..


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## kak1154

The updated second hand also has a lume plot near the tip.


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## p_mmk

Also font and font size of sub dials are different. Light grey "seconds" sub-dial also now show 20,40, 60 seconds. I don't know- really like the star on the chrono hand. of the older design...


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## idontknowjackeither

wzm4114 said:


> My opinion is that Zenith is fairly bad at communicating news and changes.


Agreed! Does anybody know if the pictures on the Zenith website are correct & updated regulary?

For example, does the 38mm Chronomaster really come with a different dial and chrono seconds hand depending on strap option? Does the 42mm Chronomaster really have a different dial (with different subdial layering) depending on the strap?

Or are some pictures just out of date? There are no ADs in my area and at this point I have no idea what to expect to receive if I were to order a watch. The EP is at the top of my list if I can get a 42mm with the star on the chrono seconds hand and the subdial layout with the chrono hours behind the running seconds and chrono minutes, but no star & the other layout could be deal breakers.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek! I can't answer your questions but my subjective experience is that the website collection could be kept a little more up to date - i.e. changes don't filter there tomorrow, it's more a matter of weeks or even a few months. The latest developments are reliably posted on the front page, as for the watches on offer, that part does not change regularly except for the one's put on the front page. Others can perhaps provide more objective evidence.

But then, several models remain available as NOS at the ADs even when taken off the market so maybe there is some logic in this.....

Hartmut Richter


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## idontknowjackeither

Thank you Hartmut for the welcome & the feedback.

This is my subjective experience as well. They should add more pictures too - one per listing on most of the Chronomasters is disappointing & when I search the web for additional pictures I see several versions listed with the same reference numbers. It seems visiting an AD and seeing what's available is really the only way to know for sure what's on offer. I just wish there was an AD nearby, there are none listed on the Zenith site for my state (Michigan in the US) or even any of the adjoining states. Maybe next time I'm in Europe I'll look around there.


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## gk483

idontknowjackeither said:


> Thank you Hartmut for the welcome & the feedback.
> 
> This is my subjective experience as well. They should add more pictures too - one per listing on most of the Chronomasters is disappointing & when I search the web for additional pictures I see several versions listed with the same reference numbers. It seems visiting an AD and seeing what's available is really the only way to know for sure what's on offer. I just wish there was an AD nearby, there are none listed on the Zenith site for my state (Michigan in the US) or even any of the adjoining states. Maybe next time I'm in Europe I'll look around there.


I agree, you'd think there would be more visual references out there considering ADs for these are scant.


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## Tsujigiri

That would be a huge mistake to discontinue the caliber 400. It's a classic at this point, and one of the biggest draws of the brand. Also, I wouldn't get the new model because it doesn't have an hour totalizer, and for the things that I usually use a chronograph for (parking, laundry, cooking), an hour counter is a whole lot more useful than a larger 1/10 second display. Since most high end chronographs are bicompax, Zenith has a special niche in the market by producing a chrono that both looks amazing and counts hours.


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## DesmoIsland

idontknowjackeither said:


> Agreed! Does anybody know if the pictures on the Zenith website are correct & updated regulary?
> 
> For example, does the 38mm Chronomaster really come with a different dial and chrono seconds hand depending on strap option? Does the 42mm Chronomaster really have a different dial (with different subdial layering) depending on the strap?
> 
> Or are some pictures just out of date? There are no ADs in my area and at this point I have no idea what to expect to receive if I were to order a watch. The EP is at the top of my list if I can get a 42mm with the star on the chrono seconds hand and the subdial layout with the chrono hours behind the running seconds and chrono minutes, but no star & the other layout could be deal breakers.


Definitely some outdated pictures on their website with old dial variations. Best way to see the current models is to go to your AD, and look at the official catalog.


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## idontknowjackeither

DesmoIsland said:


> Definitely some outdated pictures on their website with old dial variations. Best way to see the current models is to go to your AD, and look at the official catalog.


Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, it's 316 miles to the nearest AD according to the Zenith site! I'd really like an El Primero, but given the lack of ADs and the generally poor reviews of the US service center, I'm not sure it makes any sense to get one


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## chelseacjd

This thread has been very helpful, thank you all. I own a 38mm with blue dial and adore it (photo below of course). But I was looking the other day and wondered if it was being continued as MSRP was very inflated.










I managed to buy mine just over a year ago from an AD for a very deep discount (some 40% off MSRP) which I did think was a tad strange. If the news is true and it's discontinued I'll gladly keep hold of mine then!

Cheers, Chris.


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## BRN

The blue Chronomaster has been on my radar for the past few months and of course now it gets discontinued. 

So posting here for future updates on this model.


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## w8tch88

chelseacjd said:


> This thread has been very helpful, thank you all. I own a 38mm with blue dial and adore it (photo below of course). But I was looking the other day and wondered if it was being continued as MSRP was very inflated.
> 
> View attachment 15432470
> 
> 
> I managed to buy mine just over a year ago from an AD for a very deep discount (some 40% off MSRP) which I did think was a tad strange. If the news is true and it's discontinued I'll gladly keep hold of mine then!
> 
> Cheers, Chris.


Very nice wrist shot!


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## HSPro

I've been looking for a pre-owned silver dial 38mm EP 1969 in recent months and found them very thin on the ground in the UK.
New ones are also very hard to find and prices higher than earlier in the year. If they're being discontinued, this explains it.
In the last few days I've been trying to track down a new on. Not sure what to do now, buy the current model or wait for the new one in '21.


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## gossler

chelseacjd said:


> This thread has been very helpful, thank you all. I own a 38mm with blue dial and adore it (photo below of course). But I was looking the other day and wondered if it was being continued as MSRP was very inflated.
> 
> View attachment 15432470
> 
> 
> I managed to buy mine just over a year ago from an AD for a very deep discount (some 40% off MSRP) which I did think was a tad strange. If the news is true and it's discontinued I'll gladly keep hold of mine then!
> 
> Cheers, Chris.


That is a gorgeously watch. You really captured a great photo. I always struggle to get a good photo of my Chronomaster.

I would definitely not be put out buy the service costs. Im sure a good watchsmith can service the EP after all its been out for 50 years.


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## chelseacjd

gossler said:


> That is a gorgeously watch. You really captured a great photo. I always struggle to get a good photo of my Chronomaster.
> 
> I would definitely not be put out buy the service costs. Im sure a good watchsmith can service the EP after all its been out for 50 years.


Easy to photograph when it's so beautiful! I actually took this on the platform at a train station after a successful job interview. Now it's my lucky watch


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## Alwaysontime12

wrxdev said:


> Content edited in line with forum sticky:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Discussion of pricing for the US market: please read
> 
> 
> Dear Zenith Forum Members, May we ask that we please discuss AD discounting via PM or Email from this point forward? Same request regarding grey market pricing and/or references. There are so many factors that are involved in price setting and discounting, some of which can have a very...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
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> 
> Hartmut Richter


Explain this to me. Are you trying to say people cant discuss prices/discounts from AD's and grey markets?


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## Hartmut Richter

Alwaysontime12 said:


> Explain this to me. Are you trying to say people cant discuss prices/discounts from AD's and grey markets?


Correct. If you want to do so, please do so by personal message.

Hartmut Richter


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## Alwaysontime12

Hartmut Richter said:


> Correct. If you want to do so, please do so by personal message.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


And what exactly is the idea behind this?


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## One-Seventy

Alwaysontime12 said:


> And what exactly is the idea behind this?


Probably to stop this turning into f23, which mainly talks about premiums, money, ballers, steel, what's discontinued so represents a growth opportunity, dealers, VIPs, whales, cookies, waitlists and résumés. On and every few weeks someone wants to know about a vintage DJ and 2 people reply .


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## Baxxxton

so, most dealers on C24 told me, that the watch will be discontinued.
too bad, I should have bought one as long as the prices were reasonable.
7k grey market now vs. 5k a few month back in time ... too bad.
will they release a new 38mm model?


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## Hartmut Richter

Alwaysontime12 said:


> And what exactly is the idea behind this?


I you will ask, I will be quite blatant about it. We have two forum sponsors (on Zenith, that is - there are rather more on Watchuseek as a whole) that are authorised dealers in the US and Yes, it is to give them a certain amount of protection. The basic truth of the market is that we depend on people like these in order to provide a high class forum for free to members so that we consider this action to be valid.

But, quite apart from the benefit it gives Watchuseek, we believe that this is justified in its own right. We are talking about high class watches, i.e. about luxury goods and therefore about a market segment where it should not be necessary to squeeze the market for every last penny you can get out of it (or in this case save). I am not sure what your work is but I imagine that you would not be happy if someone showed up who was willing to do/sell/make it a little cheaper than you and take all your customers away from you. And you would not be happy either about a customer who haggled aggressively and squeezed your profit down to a minimum. We have recently had a fair amount of talk about bad service from Zenith and the logic of the market dictates that this sort of behaviour may be at least one reason for it.

All this should not stop you from trying to save a little by haggling down the price if you are so inclined. But one should not be as blatant about it as to allow minimum price advertising on a forum which should be concerned more with historical information, appetising pictures of watches on the wrist or even advice where you get good service rather than acting as a brokerage for the lowest price. With respect to *both* forum sponsors, we have only had positive feedback here and I for one would prefer that they get the sort of cash and custom to maintain that.

I hope that makes our position clear.

Hartmut Richter


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## Alwaysontime12

Hartmut Richter said:


> I you will ask, I will be quite blatant about it. We have two forum sponsors (on Zenith, that is - there are rather more on Watchuseek as a whole) that are authorised dealers in the US and Yes, it is to give them a certain amount of protection. The basic truth of the market is that we depend on people like these in order to provide a high class forum for free to members so that we consider this action to be valid.
> 
> But, quite apart from the benefit it gives Watchuseek, we believe that this is justified in its own right. We are talking about high class watches, i.e. about luxury goods and therefore about a market segment where it should not be necessary to squeeze the market for every last penny you can get out of it (or in this case save). I am not sure what your work is but I imagine that you would not be happy if someone showed up who was willing to do/sell/make it a little cheaper than you and take all your customers away from you. And you would not be happy either about a customer who haggled aggressively and squeezed your profit down to a minimum. We have recently had a fair amount of talk about bad service from Zenith and the logic of the market dictates that this sort of behaviour may be at least one reason for it.
> 
> All this should not stop you from trying to save a little by haggling down the price if you are so inclined. But one should not be as blatant about it as to allow minimum price advertising on a forum which should be concerned more with historical information, appetising pictures of watches on the wrist or even advice where you get good service rather than acting as a brokerage for the lowest price. With respect to *both* forum sponsors, we have only had positive feedback here and I for one would prefer that they get the sort of cash and custom to maintain that.
> 
> I hope that makes our position clear.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Bold! You know that's by definition..selling out?!! To think a forum comprised for and by watch collectors, having their speech compelled for the benefit of a luxury goods company. Sometimes I think companies (much like some governments) forget who they owe their existence to. How many watches do you suppose this forum has directly and indirectly sold for these companies? If the number is small, then why should they care. If the number is large, then why are they complaining? You cant blame forum members for them giving away their profit margins.

Now that I got that off my chest, I also understand the flip side of the coin. We have to do what it takes to survive in business. Especially in these times. Both them and watchuseek ( which is the only party in this that I care about). This is tight rope or thin line to walk. In the words of Joey Tribbiani Jr "The line is a dot to you". I just hope we don't see more of this in the future.


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## One-Seventy

Alwaysontime12 said:


> Bold! You know that's by definition..selling out?!! To think a forum comprised for and by watch collectors, having their speech compelled for the benefit of a luxury goods company.


This is the equivalent of someone's store front. There is zero entrance fee but you're free to leave at any time if you don't like the rules. The web's been around a long time now; it's become kind of a cliché to complain about the rules on an internet forum you don't own and don't pay for.


> Sometimes I think companies (much like some governments) forget who they owe their existence to. How many watches do you suppose this forum has directly and indirectly sold for these companies?


Best thing to do is start a forum of your own, and encourage people to discuss deals, flipping, margins and discounts. Then get sponsors to pay for it all.


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## Hartmut Richter

Alwaysontime12 said:


> Bold! You know that's by definition..selling out?!! To think a forum comprised for and by watch collectors, having their speech compelled for the benefit of a luxury goods company. Sometimes I think companies (much like some governments) forget who they owe their existence to. How many watches do you suppose this forum has directly and indirectly sold for these companies? If the number is small, then why should they care. If the number is large, then why are they complaining? You cant blame forum members for them giving away their profit margins.
> 
> Now that I got that off my chest, I also understand the flip side of the coin. We have to do what it takes to survive in business. Especially in these times. Both them and watchuseek ( which is the only party in this that I care about). This is tight rope or thin line to walk. In the words of Joey Tribbiani Jr "The line is a dot to you". I just hope we don't see more of this in the future.


"Bold"? Why "bold"?!

Point 1: it is completely irrelevant, how many watches Watchuseek has sold "directly or indirectly". Watchuseek does not sell watches directly and that's not what it is there for. Watchuseek gives members - and to a certain extent sponsors (via advertising) - the means to sell, which is what you probably consider to be "indirect selling". Still, Watchuseek's existence does not hinge on that and we are impartial, i.e. if one brand sells a lot and another nothing, we don't really care.

Point 2: we do not protect the brands by this action, we protect the sponsors (i.e.: ADs). The sponsors all sell more than one brand so I presume that one of those folds through overpricing or bad servicing, they don't really care much either, they move on to another brand.

Point 3: our backing of the sponsors does hinge to a certain extent on the cash we get from them rather than the standard of the service they provide to their customers but we have in the past terminated our sponsor contracts with sponsors that have acquired too iffy a reputation. Once more: we have *absolutely no reason* to have anything but the highest opinion of either of the Zenith forum sponsors.

Other than that, I can only emphatically second what One-Seventy has said.

Hartmut Richter


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## DesmoIsland

DesmoIsland said:


> I am hearing that the 38mm as we know it will be retired this year. New models (with the 1/10th chrono) will be introduced in 2021. The caliber 400 apparently will not go forward.


Yes there will be a new model at 40.5mm, as well as a new 38mm.


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## Mondo Shizmo

I am lucky to own one in 38mm with the 400 movement but what if the new movement is the shiz and they thin down the el primero. it’s a win win if you wait. Shoot if it’s thinner I may just get a new one but don’t get me wrong the 38mm with the 400 movement is a treat as well.


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## Alwaysontime12

Hartmut Richter said:


> "Bold"? Why "bold"?!
> 
> Point 1: it is completely irrelevant, how many watches Watchuseek has sold "directly or indirectly". Watchuseek does not sell watches directly and that's not what it is there for. Watchuseek gives members - and to a certain extent sponsors (via advertising) - the means to sell, which is what you probably consider to be "indirect selling". Still, Watchuseek's existence does not hinge on that and we are impartial, i.e. if one brand sells a lot and another nothing, we don't really care.
> 
> Point 2: we do not protect the brands by this action, we protect the sponsors (i.e.: ADs). The sponsors all sell more than one brand so I presume that one of those folds through overpricing or bad servicing, they don't really care much either, they move on to another brand.
> 
> Point 3: our backing of the sponsors does hinge to a certain extent on the cash we get from them rather than the standard of the service they provide to their customers but we have in the past terminated our sponsor contracts with sponsors that have acquired too iffy a reputation. Once more: we have *absolutely no reason* to have anything but the highest opinion of either of the Zenith forum sponsors.
> 
> Other than that, I can only emphatically second what One-Seventy has said.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


#1 Is not irrelevant. I'm not talking about watchuseek as an entity selling anything. I'm talking about all the watches that have been sold by members convincing (directly or indirectly) other members because of all the info and opinions shared on here. Maybe the way I worded it wasn't thorough enough. I was also never talking about any one brand of watch. I understand what you said the first time. By telling people they cant discuss pricing and discounts, you are "caring". Caring to the point of forcing people to not speak about it. Specifically Zenith by way of a specific AD. I will repeat again...its not forum members fault that AD's are giving away all their profit margins. Maybe we can take this as proof positive that we as collectors, do in fact, make up a significant portion of overall watch buyers. Lord knows Rolex would NEVER admit that. Although, they may be an exception.

I'm really not here to argue. Although it has turned into something that resembles that. Like I said, I understand the flip side of the coin. I just want you to know what this feels like from a forum members point of view. I also want it known that I'm not bringing the AD's reputation into question. I would even venture to say that if they are giving too much profit away on some deals, that they are good people who are willing to deal. That gains my respect.

As for One-Seventy, I should leave and make my own forum? WOW

So someone tells a critical opinion about a move against silencing the very people that got this forum into the position of being able to charge a fee for a marketable audience and you tell me too leave and start my own? Boy I wish I could say that to my customers. You think because this is free to memebers that we don't deserve a voice? You know facebook is free right? Instagram, snapchat and on and on. All of them getting payed because of the users. This only proves my point of companies forgetting who they owe their success too. Yes, you are implied in that last statement Hartmut by "emphatically" seconding what One-Seventy said. Geez fellas, I really didn't want this to turn into something like this. I was only trying to explain why it can be construed as b.s

All the best to everyone


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## Hartmut Richter

I would think that One-Seventy suggested that you should leave and start your own forum principally (or solely?!) in order to be shown just how hard it is to get the funding for that sort of thing if you give a platform for members (and probably lurkers) to sqeeze those who are funding you out of their profits. No, we *can* take stick from members who don't agree to everything here and are willing to discuss it - I for one am willing to write daily posts as long as they stay civil.

Other than that, I can only reiterate: you are still allowed to discuss prices here, you should merely confine yourself to doing it by PM. That way, at least the lurkers don't see the discussion.

Hartmut Richter


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## One-Seventy

Alwaysontime12 said:


> As for One-Seventy, I should leave and make my own forum? WOW


Why not? Then you can define all the rules that make you happy, and people can discuss discounts, margins, deals, greys and flipping. You won't get any sponsorship from the people you're undercutting, though, so I hope you have deep pockets .

Most people into watches these days see them as investments, with "resale value" dominating discussion. Of course, Facebook and other cesspits of social media are free to use because you are the product; that's not the case with a bulletin board-style forum.


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## Roningrad

Hi guys, just trying to get some info on this model, the tri-color 03.2150.400/69.C713. Is it discontinued? Can't seem to find it anymore in the zenith website. Thanks.


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## Hartmut Richter

There have been so many iterations of the A386 lately that I have lost track, but I wonder when this one was on the market. It looks exactly like the "Original 1969" except that the chrono seconds hand (with baton, no star as a counterweight) does not match. On the other hand, the excact replica (3 in steel as part of sets of three, 50 white gold, 50 yellow gold, 50 rose gold) has a different dial font. Maybe this is a model about to come on the market?!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Roningrad

Hartmut Richter said:


> There have been so many iterations of the A386 lately that I have lost track, but I wonder when this one was on the market. It looks exactly like the "Original 1969" except that the chrono seconds hand (with baton, no star as a counterweight) does not match. On the other hand, the excact replica (3 in steel as part of sets of three, 50 white gold, 50 yellow gold, 50 rose gold) has a different dial font. Maybe this is a model about to come on the market?!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Hi Hartmut. I suppose this may be a newer model coming in. I got this from their website around Oct.-Nov. 2020. But It disappeared from their website when I last checked. It seemed quite odd.


----------



## Nathan356

Ah yeah I remember seeing that version and at the time the speculation was the same: it was a preview of the redesigned Chronomaster 38. But, who knows, Zenith isn't the most organized on with their website and it could have also been a prototype rendering that someone accidently uploaded. I do hope they release a version like that though. I like the more vintage-like dial and second hand, and pairing it with the modern 100M case would be a great combo.


----------



## fishoop

I was going to start a new thread but my post seems fitting enough here...

I'm falling back and forth between wanting the 38mm Primero Chronomaster blue dial. However, according the the models available on Zenith's website, this watch is no longer available? Perhaps an AD will have one in stock - but it appears Zenith is no longer manufacturing *any *38mm Chronomasters.

Is this true? Does anyone know what's going on?


----------



## noregrets

fishoop said:


> I was going to start a new thread but my post seems fitting enough here...
> 
> I'm falling back and forth between wanting the 38mm Primero Chronomaster blue dial. However, according the the models available on Zenith's website, this watch is no longer available? Perhaps an AD will have one in stock - but it appears Zenith is no longer manufacturing *any *38mm Chronomasters.
> 
> Is this true? Does anyone know what's going on?


I believe I read that the plan is to re-release them this spring with the new movement.


----------



## wrxdev

I expect the new 38mm El Primero Chronomaster will be released in early April. I am excited.


----------



## Baxxxton

I'm prett sure they will show it in the following 1-2 weeks during Watches & Wonders.

Super Hyped.


----------



## Fantasio

Would this do instead?

CHRONOMASTER Revival A386 Manufacture - 03.Z386.400/60.C843 - Zenith Watches



Roningrad said:


> Hi Hartmut. I suppose this may be a newer model coming in. I got this from their website around Oct.-Nov. 2020. But It disappeared from their website when I last checked. It seemed quite odd.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Nice! But that one is the one with the three blue totalisers.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## wrxdev

I am eagerly waiting for Zenith to release the 38mm with the updated 3600 movement. Like a child before Christmas.😀


----------



## ADillon

The 38mm has always gone for significantly more on the secondary market than its 42mm counterpart. A shame as I also prefer the 38mm


----------



## Fantasio

I know, but it looks so cool. And otherwise closer to the original A386. 



Hartmut Richter said:


> Nice! But that one is the one with the three blue totalisers.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


----------



## Roningrad

Waiting for the new Zenith release. Oh Zenith, please dont s**** up the 38 chronomaster and movement update!

Tudor and rolex releases were TBH, unimpressive. Was personally expecting a new smallish Ranger but I suppose the smallish Explorer (and its already perceived T-rex hands) was a welcome release.


----------



## franco60

t60 said:


> Edit: Looks like the used market is pegged upwards for whatever reason. I'm personally not buying into it, the servicing costs are simply too high. I find it funny some folks are taking advantage of this and selling for likely more than their acquisition costs now! Mind boggling..
> 
> I've been looking at the 38mm El Primero for over a year now, and am thinking about pulling the trigger on it, as I don't have a chrono yet, and the Speedy is simply too big for me. I love the design of the El Primero, but the only thing that gets me is when I looked at it at an AD, the "1" on the "13" in the date was almost off the dial, otherwise I probably would have pulled the trigger:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I'm looking at it again, the ADs around me seem to be out of stock on it, and can't order it. Is this thing really going away? I saw the MSRP jumped from 7100 to 8200 (on bracelet) and now it's out of stock. I'm hoping this is a temporary thing as I want to check it out in person again at some point.


Man, with all due respect, not sure how a "1" that occurs one day a month could keep you from one of the finest watches made at any price, but I hope you work through it. I have three Zeniths and absolutely love them.

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


----------



## FlightQualified

franco60 said:


> Man, with all due respect, not sure how a "1" that occurs one day a month could keep you from one of the finest watches made at any price, but I hope you work through it. I have three Zeniths and absolutely love them.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Respect noted, but we are all crazy watch people, aren't we? Some people complain about tiny specks of dust on their dial that can only be seen under a loupe. Surely a date that is supposed to be "13" but can easily be misconstrued as a "3" be bothersome to some? Good on you for loving Zenith, but I just would expect better date alignment on a watch that pricey.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

franco60 said:


> Man, with all due respect, not sure how a "1" that occurs one day a month could keep you from one of the finest watches made at any price, but I hope you work through it. I have three Zeniths and absolutely love them.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk


Actually the hidden 1 occurs 9 times a month. Days 10-19.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

t60 said:


> Respect noted, but we are all crazy watch people, aren't we? Some people complain about tiny specks of dust on their dial that can only be seen under a loupe. Surely a date that is supposed to be "13" but can easily be misconstrued as a "3" be bothersome to some? Good on you for loving Zenith, but I just would expect better date alignment on a watch that pricey.


I pre-ordered the new 38mm coming out end of July. I've seen a pic of it and it looks like the date window is bigger with a stepped box around it. The date also seemed more centred so hopefully this fixes the issue.


----------



## FlightQualified

FirstF80InSpace said:


> I pre-ordered the new 38mm coming out end of July. I've seen a pic of it and it looks like the date window is bigger with a stepped box around it. The date also seemed more centred so hopefully this fixes the issue.


Tell me more.. the only El Primero I could find releasing this year is their "final" which is an LE of 38 watches, which will be impossible to obtain/afford.


----------



## Roningrad

t60 said:


> Tell me more.. the only El Primero I could find releasing this year is their "final" which is an LE of 38 watches, which will be impossible to obtain/afford.


hi @t60, will it be possible to share pics or a link of the "new" 38mm coming in July as well as the "final" 38mm LE. I think I need to finally decide on it now. Its down to the Speedy SS 3861 or the 38mm Chronomaster. Thanks.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

t60 said:


> Tell me more.. the only El Primero I could find releasing this year is their "final" which is an LE of 38 watches, which will be impossible to obtain/afford.


It's not publicly released yet, but all AD's will have this info including the model numbers.

I saw the promo sheet but wasn't allowed to take a pic. From what I recall there are 4 new ones. A panda dial in steel or leather. The original tri-color in steel and leather. A rose gold one and one for ladies. The ladies one looked like something a 9 year old girl would wear. By the way, the old croc straps were way better. The new ones come in calfskin and look cheap.

They look exactly the same as the discontinued 38mm except for slight variations in the dial. They added a 1/10th seconds track. I think the original 38mm dial looked cleaner but it wasn't a deal breaker for me.

The biggest upgrade is obviously the better movement. The old 400 cal was a workhorse but it was old and complicated to service. I believe the newer one is the same one that's in the Chronomaster Sport.

Oh and finally there's a price bump. Like $600 or so.

All of this I'm going off memory, so I may have gotten some details incorrect.

Best to go down to an AD and check out the brochure yourself. Some may show you, others may not so call around. It's not a secret that a new 38mm line is being released end of July. The only secret are the details. But it's a poorly kept secret given every AD in the world will have this info.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

FirstF80InSpace said:


> Actually the hidden 1 occurs 9 times a month. Days 10-19.


Don't want to nitpick but 10-19 is actually ten days, not nine. 

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Roningrad

FirstF80InSpace said:


> It's not publicly released yet, but all AD's will have this info including the model numbers.
> 
> I saw the promo sheet but wasn't allowed to take a pic. From what I recall there are 4 new ones. A panda dial in steel or leather. The original tri-color in steel and leather. A rose gold one and one for ladies. The ladies one looked like something a 9 year old girl would wear. By the way, the old croc straps were way better. The new ones come in calfskin and look cheap.
> 
> They look exactly the same as the discontinued 38mm except for slight variations in the dial. They added a 1/10th seconds track. I think the original 38mm dial looked cleaner but it wasn't a deal breaker for me.
> 
> The biggest upgrade is obviously the better movement. The old 400 cal was a workhorse but it was old and complicated to service. I believe the newer one is the same one that's in the Chronomaster Sport.
> 
> Oh and finally there's a price bump. Like $600 or so.
> 
> All of this I'm going off memory, so I may have gotten some details incorrect.
> 
> Best to go down to an AD and check out the brochure yourself. Some may show you, others may not so call around. It's not a secret that a new 38mm line is being released end of July. The only secret are the details. But it's a poorly kept secret given every AD in the world will have this info.


Thank you.

I reckon theres no movement update yet on these models. A USD600 price hike? Ouch! I love the old leather gator strap with rubber underside.

I think it's best to catch the old variants now. I may still get a brand new one locally. The only thing holding me a decision whether to pull the trigger on theEP or the speedy SS 3861.


----------



## nrk

Roningrad said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I reckon theres no movement update yet on these models. A USD600 price hike? Ouch! I love the old leather gator strap with rubber underside.
> 
> I think it's best to catch the old variants now. I may still get a brand new one locally. The only thing holding me a decision whether to pull the trigger on theEP or the speedy SS 3861.


This is a trend that's going to continue, the CITES regulations are making it harder and harder to trade in 'exotic' leathers like gator. I don't mind the simpler look of calf generally, it's definitely a more casual/every-day material.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

Roningrad said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I reckon theres no movement update yet on these models. A USD600 price hike? Ouch! I love the old leather gator strap with rubber underside.
> 
> I think it's best to catch the old variants now. I may still get a brand new one locally. The only thing holding me a decision whether to pull the trigger on theEP or the speedy SS 3861.


There is a movement update. It's the new one that's also in the Chronomaster Sport. So it will have a longer power reserve and easier to service vs the old 38mm.


----------



## Roningrad

FirstF80InSpace said:


> There is a movement update. It's the new one that's also in the Chronomaster Sport. So it will have a longer power reserve and easier to service vs the old 38mm.


Indeed. The dreaded servicing costs!

Its an underlying concern me for me this past few years which hinders me from jumping in, and the main reason the speedy keeps poking in. A conundrum!


----------



## WTSP

I remember when I purchased my 38 mm Original 1969 back in 2013, about a year and a half after the model was launched. Other WUS members like Fantasio and EnderW got the same model. 
Zenith El Primero Original 1969 38 mm Review

I had some misgivings about the subdial overlap, but I'm glad I overcame them and got the watch. If I had waited for the more recent less overlapped version, it would have been more difficult to find and the price would have been significantly higher. Zenith had classified their three 38 mm El Primeros (tri-colour, grey and blue) as ladies models and seemed to have difficulty figuring out who to sell them to. Zeniths were all over the grey market sites, discounts were comparatively good and the Canadian dollar was at parity.

Now Dufour and Biver's turnaround efforts have combined with the COVID collectibles boosting effect to make Zenith hotter than it's been in decades. One day five figures will likely be the standard MSRP for all El Primeros. I don't look forward to that day and discounts will probably continue to apply, but it's clear that even used and grey market prices have increase dramatically for the brand.

I think that collectors who are concerned about the service cost and process for Zenith are right to scrutinize. I've written enough about that in other threads. LVMH needs to aim for the virtuous cycle that Rolex has of increasing sales volumes, plowing profits back into quality control and servicing, which in turn will sustain pricing. Otherwise, Zenith and others LVMH brands will remain giants with feet of clay.


----------



## Fantasio

Still loving mine, got it around same time as WTSP. Subdial overlap has never bothered me, but I don't use it much for timing things. I wish the Manufacture Edition would have been available when I got mine, but I won't update it since it was present for my 40th birthday. Besides the price is now way higher.

I really hope they would release a 38 mm tri-color model with updated movement, even though I won't be buying one. I'm happy with my version and EP400 movement, it has so much sentimental value. 



WTSP said:


> I remember when I purchased my 38 mm Original 1969 back in 2013, about a year and a half after the model was launched. Other WUS members like Fantasio and EnderW got the same model.












Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


----------



## WTSP

Fantasio said:


> Still loving mine, got it around same time as WTSP. Subdial overlap has never bothered me, but I don't use it much for timing things. I wish the Manufacture Edition would have been available when I got mine, but I won't update it since it was present for my 40th birthday. Besides the price is now way higher.
> 
> I really hope they would release a 38 mm tri-color model with updated movement, even though I won't be buying one. I'm happy with my version and EP400 movement, it has so much sentimental value.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


Hypothetically, if you could get the dial swapped during servicing to the less overlapped version would you do it? I think the model number for all tri-colour 38 mm Chronomasters has stayed the same, so technically it wouldn't even produce a frankenwatch.

I've thought about it, but then realized it would involve changing the hands on all the subdials as well. That would likely increase the expense and change the nature of the watch even more. Also, less colour on the smaller subdials. So I probably wouldn't do it. Haven't gotten it serviced yet after over seven years. I don't know if I should since it keeps great time and I have bad luck with servicing.


----------



## Roningrad

WTSP said:


> I remember when I purchased my 38 mm Original 1969 back in 2013, about a year and a half after the model was launched. Other WUS members like Fantasio and EnderW got the same model.
> Zenith El Primero Original 1969 38 mm Review
> 
> I had some misgivings about the subdial overlap, but I'm glad I overcame them and got the watch. If I had waited for the more recent less overlapped version, it would have been more difficult to find and the price would have been significantly higher. Zenith had classified their three 38 mm El Primeros (tri-colour, grey and blue) as ladies models and seemed to have difficulty figuring out who to sell them to. Zeniths were all over the grey market sites, discounts were comparatively good and the Canadian dollar was at parity.
> 
> Now Dufour and Biver's turnaround efforts have combined with the COVID collectibles boosting effect to make Zenith hotter than it's been in decades. One day five figures will likely be the standard MSRP for all El Primeros. I don't look forward to that day and discounts will probably continue to apply, but it's clear that even used and grey market prices have increase dramatically for the brand.
> 
> I think that collectors who are concerned about the service cost and process for Zenith are right to scrutinize. I've written enough about that in other threads. LVMH needs to aim for the virtuous cycle that Rolex has of increasing sales volumes, plowing profits back into quality control and servicing, which in turn will sustain pricing. Otherwise, Zenith and others LVMH brands will remain giants with feet of clay.


Thanks WTSP. I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience you shared in your posts. Got me a cent or two (may probably be more) to ponder on very deeply.









From the Editor: LVMH Service Center Turns the Warranty Repair of My Zenith DEFY El Primero 21 Into a Nightmare — WATCH COLLECTING LIFESTYLE


One watch topic that remains undiscussed is after-sales service and how the luxury watch brands handle warranty and non-warranty repairs. As a watch collector for 30 years now, I have dealt with different authorized service centers almost a dozen times. I have sent watches in for repair in the U.S.




www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com





"The moral of the story is that no matter how much you like a watch, you have to always think about the after-sales service before making a purchase. "


----------



## Fantasio

I had a bit similar discussion with my watch friend a couple of months ago. Three of my core collection classics had gotten revently updated, and I mused about the possibility of getting better versions of those.

Zenith EP Original 1969 > Zenith Chronomaster Manufacture Edition

Omega Speedmaster 1861 > Omega Speedmaster 3861

Rolex Submariner 114060 > Rolex Submariner 124060

Of course these updates would have taken pretty hefty amount of money. But still I wouldn't do it, even if I had the funds. Then they would not be the same watches I had saved and waited for years, and which I had worn in many nice occasions.

The dial swap has never occured to me, but I would not do even that. Not because of the cost, but because I would not want to change my watch, not even with an updated dial.



WTSP said:


> Hypothetically, if you could get the dial swapped during servicing to the less overlapped version would you do it?


Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

Fantasio said:


> I really hope they would release a 38 mm tri-color model with updated movement, even though I won't be buying one. I'm happy with my version and EP400 movement, it has so much sentimental value.


They will be releasing a new 38mm with updated movement. I've already seen a picture of it. I put down a deposit. Should be arriving some time end of July.


----------



## WTSP

Roningrad said:


> Thanks WTSP. I greatly appreciate the thoughts and experience you shared in your posts. Got me a cent or two (may probably be more) to ponder on very deeply.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the Editor: LVMH Service Center Turns the Warranty Repair of My Zenith DEFY El Primero 21 Into a Nightmare — WATCH COLLECTING LIFESTYLE
> 
> 
> One watch topic that remains undiscussed is after-sales service and how the luxury watch brands handle warranty and non-warranty repairs. As a watch collector for 30 years now, I have dealt with different authorized service centers almost a dozen times. I have sent watches in for repair in the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "The moral of the story is that no matter how much you like a watch, you have to always think about the after-sales service before making a purchase. "


Too true. Have you read through this thread?








WCL: Zenith Repair Nightmare


I've read some horror stories on this forum, but this is pretty bad: https://www.watchcollectinglifestyle.com/home/vmh-service-center-turns-the-warranty-repair-of-my-zenith-defy-el-primero-21-into-a-nightmare I having very conflicting thoughts about the company after reading this. It's a lot...




www.watchuseek.com







Fantasio said:


> I had a bit similar discussion with my watch friend a couple of months ago. Three of my core collection classics had gotten revently updated, and I mused about the possibility of getting better versions of those.
> 
> Zenith EP Original 1969 > Zenith Chronomaster Manufacture Edition
> 
> Omega Speedmaster 1861 > Omega Speedmaster 3861
> 
> Rolex Submariner 114060 > Rolex Submariner 124060
> 
> Of course these updates would have taken pretty hefty amount of money. But still I wouldn't do it, even if I had the funds. Then they would not be the same watches I had saved and waited for years, and which I had worn in many nice occasions.
> 
> The dial swap has never occured to me, but I would not do even that. Not because of the cost, but because I would not want to change my watch, not even with an updated dial.
> 
> Sent from Maxwell Smart's shoe.


I agree. Keeping your original watches is the way to go.


----------



## Roningrad

Yes @WTSP , actually I just followed the links you shared. It was great info that's not often discussed. I'm glad I got to read them.


----------



## Roningrad

Hi all. I've seen the new 38mm EPs "the new ones" in pics - steel and RG variants; and yes, it will have the updated caliber. 

I think I love and prefer its predecessor more even with the cal400.


----------



## DesmoIsland

t60 said:


> Edit: Looks like the used market is pegged upwards for whatever reason. I'm personally not buying into it, the servicing costs are simply too high. I find it funny some folks are taking advantage of this and selling for likely more than their acquisition costs now! Mind boggling..
> 
> I've been looking at the 38mm El Primero for over a year now, and am thinking about pulling the trigger on it, as I don't have a chrono yet, and the Speedy is simply too big for me. I love the design of the El Primero, but the only thing that gets me is when I looked at it at an AD, the "1" on the "13" in the date was almost off the dial, otherwise I probably would have pulled the trigger:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I'm looking at it again, the ADs around me seem to be out of stock on it, and can't order it. Is this thing really going away? I saw the MSRP jumped from 7100 to 8200 (on bracelet) and now it's out of stock. I'm hoping this is a temporary thing as I want to check it out in person again at some point.


Yes both the 42mm, and 38mm Chronomasters with the caliber 400 are now retired. Zenith has recently introduced a new 38mm with the caliber 3600 1/10th caliber (same as in the Sport) which will be available later this month.


----------



## DesmoIsland

Roningrad said:


> Hi all. I've seen the new 38mm EPs "the new ones" in pics - steel and RG variants; and yes, it will have the updated caliber.
> 
> I think I love and prefer its predecessor more even with the cal400.


The new models with the caliber 3600 will have the same case (thinner side profile) as the A386


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

Initial glance, you can't tell the difference between the old and the new. Only when they are side by side can you see some subtle differences in the dial. Updated movement will have hacking seconds.

They will officially announce it on June 29. Will probably hit stores end of July.


----------



## CharlieMein

I think the current 38mm el primero is stunning. If the new model has the hacking movement - which it looks like it will with the 3600 movement inside - and if the bracelet has more than a 2mm taper, then this will be a must have for me. Even without the taper, the non-hacking used to be the dealbreaker for me.


----------



## zigg

My local AD said they will be available August, September time. They still struggle with the demand for the white Chrono Sport, however, the black is in the window


----------



## cheu_f50

Was looking for this thread yesterday when I saw the Instagram announcement. Eager to see what the 38mm replacement is going to be. Hopefully it will still be 38mm and not grow in size.


----------



## Roningrad

CharlieMein said:


> I think the current 38mm el primero is stunning. If the new model has the hacking movement - which it looks like it will with the 3600 movement inside - and if the bracelet has more than a 2mm taper, then this will be a must have for me. Even without the taper, the non-hacking used to be the dealbreaker for me.
> 
> View attachment 15964706


Have seen the new ones in pics - steel and RG variants, i think I love and prefer its predecessor more. Its has the upgraded caliber, hacking feature. Its more akin to the vintage 1969 and a lot less contemporary compared to the previous superseded variant. Oh, and take note of the straps, the gators are gone!


----------



## cheu_f50

Roningrad said:


> Have seen the new ones in pics - steel and RG variants, i think I love and prefer its predecessor more. Its has the upgraded caliber, hacking feature. Its more akin to the vintage 1969 and a lot less contemporary compared to the previous superseded variant. Oh, and take note of the straps, the gators are gone!


Not sure if you are allowed to speak more to it, but if its more akin to the vintage, wouldn't it end up being very similar to the revival A386 that zenith is currently selling as well?


----------



## Buddy2

CharlieMein said:


> *I think the current 38mm el primero is stunning.* If the new model has the hacking movement - which it looks like it will with the 3600 movement inside - and if the bracelet has more than a 2mm taper, then this will be a must have for me. Even without the taper, the non-hacking used to be the dealbreaker for me.


I thought the 38 was discontinued. Anyhow didn't realise that they will be releasing new version with the possible changes as described until I read this thread. My AD never mentioed and I asked a few, so it's not common knowledge.


----------



## Buddy2

cheu_f50 said:


> Was looking for this thread yesterday when I saw the Instagram announcement. Eager to see what the 38mm replacement is going to be. Hopefully it will still be 38mm and not grow in size.


Personally I won't mind if it went to 39 or 40mm.


----------



## cheu_f50

Buddy2 said:


> Personally I won't mind if it went to 39 or 40mm.


It is likely that the pricing will be above what my budget for the next watch, so likely it wouldn't matter.

But I would rather see it stay 38mm, as there are not many other 38mm chronographs out there anymore. Everyone upsize to 40mm or more.


----------



## Buddy2

cheu_f50 said:


> It is likely that the pricing will be above what my budget for the next watch, so likely it wouldn't matter.
> 
> But I would rather see it stay 38mm, as there are not many other 38mm chronographs out there anymore. Everyone upsize to 40mm or more.


Good point.


----------



## FirstF80InSpace

Pricing is more than the last 38mm. But not by much. And the Gator strap is gone. Replaced by calfskin.

Every AD knows about the new 38mm. They got the sales material. They're just not allowed to say anything.


----------



## Mondo Shizmo

looks like the new photo they uploaded to their page lowered the WR to 50m rather then the 100m on the previous model


----------



## CharlieMein

Mondo Shizmo said:


> looks like the new photo they uploaded to their page lowered the WR to 50m rather then the 100m on the previous model


This is honestly so frustrating but I guess they didn't want to cannibalise the 100m of the Chronomaster Sport.


----------



## Mondo Shizmo

CharlieMein said:


> This is honestly so frustrating but I guess they didn't want to cannibalise the 100m of the Chronomaster Sport.


Yea, that does suck but I don't swim with chronos anyways. I always have a fear of accidently hitting a pusher.


----------



## carlhaluss

I like how they cleaned up the dial, at least if the above pic is a good representation, by reducing the text at the top to "Zenith, El Primero". They actually removed two lines: "Chronograph" and "Automatic", which each took up one line.


----------



## Buddy2

carlhaluss said:


> I like how they cleaned up the dial, at least if the above pic is a good representation, by reducing the text at the top to "Zenith, El Primero". They actually removed two lines: "Chronograph" and "Automatic", which each took up one line.


So that's why it looked a little empty  I actually quite like a little more text. Maybe if they kept the chronomaster line.


----------



## DesmoIsland

cheu_f50 said:


> Was looking for this thread yesterday when I saw the Instagram announcement. Eager to see what the 38mm replacement is going to be. Hopefully it will still be 38mm and not grow in size.


Imagine a A386 with a 1/10th movement (caliber 3600) with a 1/10 scale instead of the tachymeter scale.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Website link.


----------



## Roningrad

More pics of the new EP









New 38mm Chronomaster Original is here!


Zenith just announced their new Chronomaster Original in the 38mm case with the new 3600 movement. Specifications; Diameter: 38mm Thickness: 12.6mm Lug Width: 19mm Crystal: Domed sapphire w/ anti-reflective treatment on both sides Case Material: Stainless steel OR Rose gold Dial Color: Silver...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Hartmut Richter

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Website link.


"Chronomaster Original - Successor to the A386". No it isn't - it lacks the lume paddle on the chrono seconds hand!

What interests me most is the performance of the movement when the chronograph is on all the time. With the original 1/10th of a seconds movement (Cal. 4052B), it was demonstrated in a German watch magazine when the movement was brought out that the power drain of the chronograph (all that energy required to lumber the chrono seconds around at such a high speed) was a little too much and that the accuracy dropped markedly with chronograph on. Not much of a problem if you are only timing short intervals but over the entire day, it sort of adds up. If this movement has overcome that problem, it will represent a marked imnprovement on the Cal. 400.

Hartmut Richter


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## zigg

That is a very interesting point, Hartmut. Never thought of this before but it makes sense. Would be good to know whether that was addressed in the new movement.


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## drunken-gmt-master

Hartmut Richter said:


> "Chronomaster Original - Successor to the A386". No it isn't - it lacks the lume paddle on the chrono seconds hand!
> 
> What interests me most is the performance of the movement when the chronograph is on all the time. With the original 1/10th of a seconds movement (Cal. 4052B), it was demonstrated in a German watch magazine when the movement was brought out that the power drain of the chronograph (all that energy required to lumber the chrono seconds around at such a high speed) was a little too much and that the accuracy dropped markedly with chronograph on. Not much of a problem if you are only timing short intervals but over the entire day, it sort of adds up. If this movement has overcome that problem, it will represent a marked imnprovement on the Cal. 400.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Though the longest interval tracked on a subdial is 1 hour, it would be interesting to know if Zenith solved the power drain problem.


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## NM156

Initial reactions. Others are doing an amazing job on discussing the movement, so I will give credit where due.

1) Water resistance is now down to 50m, from 100m. I always enjoy a bit of over engineering here and there. Not a deal breaker tho.

2) No more croc straps. Boo Hiss!

3) Thank you for getting rid of the Star at the bottom of the seconds hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cheu_f50

I'll have to see them in person, but this could be a good birthday gift for myself next Feb. I've been eyeing the A381 revival, and this being 38mm is on my list to consider as well.

I like the panda dial version the most.


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## WTSP

NM156 said:


> Initial reactions. Others are doing an amazing job on discussing the movement, so I will give credit where due.
> 
> 1) Water resistance is now down to 50m, from 100m. I always enjoy a bit of over engineering here and there. Not a deal breaker tho.
> 
> 2) No more croc straps. Boo Hiss!
> 
> 3) Thank you for getting rid of the Star at the bottom of the seconds hand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


1) I agree with you there. 100 M seems like the minimum for a decent sport watch. Anything less than that is getting into dress watch / non-sport territory. I like that my Original 1969 is 100M.

2) Croc/alligator straps are nice, but Zenith's 38 mm model alligator straps are a little delicate. Those skins are also less sporty IMO. Personally, I think it's worth it for watch companies to start looking for interesting alternatives to alligator and crocodile, like salmon or ostrich.

3) True, the star makes it look a bit like an upside-down Tinkerbell wand, but I like it on my watch. It's interesting that they got rid of the lume rectangle. It covered the Zenith star and logo, also it isn't very functional. However, I like how it looks on the vintage models and see them as a core feature.


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## One-Seventy

10 out of 10 for the new colour schemes - took a look at them earlier. Yes, the 50m rating is a step back but I wouldn't go swimming with this watch anyway, especially not with a leather strap.

I didn't mind the old star at the end of the chrono seconds hand; I don't mind a couple of mm of "bling" . Even the thought of "tinkerbell" is not really sticking... but maybe they should have put the lume paddle in.

Straps... it's getting harder and harder to justify croc, in the face of CITES and all that. The Cordura (ish)/rubber combo on the Sport is nice, and summer-proof. I did try the all-rubber variant on another Zenith and didn't like it; a bit unyielding, and cracks appeared after less than a year, which didn't inspire confidence. So it went into strap limbo. For the money they charge, they can do better.


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## RedSilver

CharlieMein said:


> I think the current 38mm el primero is stunning. If the new model has the hacking movement - which it looks like it will with the 3600 movement inside - and if the bracelet has more than a 2mm taper, then this will be a must have for me. Even without the taper, the non-hacking used to be the dealbreaker for me.
> 
> View attachment 15964706


I have this exact model. Should I upgrade or hold on to mine?


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