# Manufacturing TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887



## JuanSinmiedo (Jun 25, 2009)

*TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887*

Tag Heuer is progressing steadily.

Of the 60 patents filed since 1860 by TAG Heuer, 14 have been obtained in the last 4 years and 12 will be recorded throughout 2009. Still, missing the best ... TAG Heuer announces that the next five years will present more than 150 major innovations.

The first one is about to be revealed. This is the new Caliber 1887, the fourth movement Developed exclusively by TAG Heuer concluded after the Caliber 360, Caliber S and Caliber V. This new movement will have its chronograph function is controlled by a column wheel, its components will be manufactured at the premises of TAG Heuer Cornol and then assembled at its headquarters in La Chaux de Fonds.

The completion of the new mechanism, besides the increase of activity in different areas of development of the firm has led to a necessary enlargement of the premises of TAG Heuer headquarters. 3000 square meters of usable space were added to the current 10,000 square meters.

It will probably be presented at Basel 2010...

Regards.


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## glamuro (Nov 20, 2009)

Happy to see the progression of Tag. I believe the price range of Tag will increase with more self developed movements. LVMH must see a bright future of Tag.


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## C. Davidson (Nov 18, 2009)

Thank you very much Juan.

The 1887 will compare very nicely to other in-house chrono calibers on the market. Can't wait to see it!

:-!


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

thanks for the info, i'm glad to see Tag is really getting some more inhouse movements


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

h2xmark said:


> thanks for the info, i'm glad to see Tag is really getting some more inhouse movements


I agree, it lends more credibility to the brand when they use their own movements but the flip side is watch prices will go up.

Everyone knows what happened when Breitling introduced the B01 this year.......they loved the watch but hated the price.


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## TheWalrus (Mar 16, 2009)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> I agree, it lends more credibility to the brand when they use their own movements but the flip side is watch prices will go up.
> 
> Everyone knows what happened when Breitling introduced the B01 this year.......they loved the watch but hated the price.


In other words, time to pick up a Tag Heuer before they pull an Omega / Rolex and price themselves out of my salary.


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## TobyJC (Nov 24, 2008)

Any idea what models will have this new movement?


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

this re-climb TAG Heuer is going thru, will also increase older models prices, as well as turn them into sought after pieces.

This is already happening as the brand re-strengths its name. A lot of the used models are slowly becoming more expensive. Not a fast change, but a good one.


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## Robertus (Mar 22, 2006)

According to factory on-line leaflet the dial will be the same as the Valjoux 7750 has (I mean sub-dial layout), with date at 6.
Questions:

1. where is the symmetry when date window is at 6???

2. any idea of a day-date version? Remember: today no in-house movement has a day-date feature! (I mean Rolex, Breitling, IWC, JLC and PP - Nautilus) Could be a nice plus for the customers, at least as an option. Can't wait to see this day-date version in the Aquaracer line - with a new lunette design...

Regards: Robertus


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## The White Rabbit (Mar 27, 2006)

*in house caliber or another company's IP?*

There are suspicions about the claims of TAG Heuer CEO Mr. Babin. They boast having singlehandedly developed a new integrated chronograph from the ground up within 3 years. That movement also happens to be reliable and fit for mass-production.

Let alone the couple of years it requires to test a new movement, a company needs to be very, very, very good to achieve such a result in such a short time. Remember ETA is sticking to 1970's designs which have been improved over the years, and everybody keeps coming back to them for a reason or another.

A couple of years ago, German watch company Junghans released two "new in-house" calibers, that after close examination proved to be Seiko designs. The company either negotiated a license to use Seiko's IP or puchases blank parts from the Japanese manufacture and finishes them and assembles them in Germany.

No permission to use that pic.

This established the fact that Seiko is open to negotiating the use of its IP by other aspiring movements manufacturers.



Edited by modhoto of Seiko cal. 6s37a by "DrSeiko.com"

Now in the case of TAG Heuer, the striking similarity of their caliber with the Seiko 6S37 makes it look like Mr. Babin might have gone a far stretch when he claims that the caliber 1887 was all developed in-house within 3 years time. There is nothing wrong with using another company's IP or parts. Fact is, Patek Philippe and Vacheron Constantin have been relying on Lemania (Swatch Group) designs for many years; and according to Swiss watch making regulations, you can claim a movement is Swiss Made as long as 50% of the cost of production is done in Switzerland. But if this new TAG Heuer 1887 proves to be Seiko's 6S37, making it look like it is TAG Heuer's own IP is what you would call "pushing the envelope" of marketing... or just plain wishful thinking.


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

A more complicated movement, the V4, was developed in 5 years so doing a regular auto movement in three years isnt out of the realm of possibility considering TAGs resources.

I'm not saying it is or isn't but I am saying it can be done. Frankly, looking at the photos, I don't see a noticeable resemblance.


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## JuanSinmiedo (Jun 25, 2009)

*Re: in house caliber or another company's IP?*

Well, I have a question.

Do you have reliable data on this issue?

Regards.


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi,

I have seen the pics, from both calibers. The column wheel, the levers, the springs, everything is strictly identical between the 2. 

And the HER praised by Babin is just the Seiko Magic Lever system.

Sorry guys, but this is not just guessing. It's serious.

BB


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi again guys,

Just to show you this is no joke...

Tag Column wheel :









Seiko Column wheel :









Official HER pic (from TAG) :









Seiko Magic lever : (seiko invented it decades ago)









This is just a quick post, but I've compared other parts, it's always the same...

BB


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Interesting... very interesting. Thanks for posting!


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## wilfreb (Jul 10, 2007)

i doubt a brand like TagHeuer could copy a Seiko movt, lets see how does this goes.


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## wilfreb (Jul 10, 2007)

here is a lot of info on the movt, check it out
http://presscorner.tagheuer.com/


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi,

Of course Tag did not copy, they probably bought the right to produce it from Seiko, exactely the same as Jughans (they also pretended it was their movement, before admitting it's the seiko cal.).

Of course, Tag will say no, but just the pics from their press corner are clear enough to declare it IS the seiko. Only the shape of the bridges has changed.

The original Seiko is wonderful movement, much better than equivalent ETAs. It will be nice to see it in a Tag Heuer. The only problem, is all that ******** talk, saying it's totally conceived and produced by Tag Heuer... And the "HER" hype... Not really serious.

BB


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## JuanSinmiedo (Jun 25, 2009)

If TAG Heuer has bought the right to produce this movement Seiko, I think is not bad. But if this is true, and yet declare that the movement is developed entirely by them, could create confusion. The movement is very strong, since it is based Seiko. With the amendments of TAG Heuer will be a movement highly reliable, high quality insurance. 

Regards.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

the Seiko 6S37 movement is 40 jewels and the tag 1887 is 39 jewel movement,the 1887 has 320 working parts and the Seiko 6s37 has 290 parts, other items are different also, in a watch case you can only have so many gears, wheels and springs before you run out of space, a watch keeps time so it is common for movements to look similar, but be different.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

"Edouard Heuer came up with the oscillating pinion in 1887," other interesting items to read from the link that wilfreb posted, maybe seiko copied some of Heuer's older material ?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

After a movement's patents expire, it is common for other companies to start making new versions based on the old movement (assuming it was a decent design in the first place). Usually they add improvements in the process. 

This has been going on for years. It is a normal course of business in the watch industry. Sometimes they acknowledge where the basis of their design came from. Sometimes they don't.


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

Does nayone know the subdial layout for this movement? 12-6-9 or 3-6-9?


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi,

Please, take a quick look at the visible part at the lower righht corner. See the springs, the way they interact, their shape. See the positions of the wheels. See the magic lever. See the column wheel. See the parts surrounding it. See the exploded view. No way pal, this is basically the SAME movement.

Tag produces the plates and bridges. It is normal that the number of jewels is different ! The press release itself says that Tag only produces plates and bridges, nothing else.

Also, I'm not sure that the pinion is in the original Seiko movement. And nothing's easier than adding parts, since each screw, each spring, adds additional parts. For instance, the small plate enclosing the counter stone on the escape wheel: Its presence adds immediately 4 or 5 parts !!

There's more than coincidence between these 2 movements. And the description of the "HER" by TAG, pretending THEY invented it, and that Seiko copied them, is by itself shocking ! When you know that the Magic Lever has been around for 35 years...

Anyway, we'll see what TAG say on monday, if they'll simply deny it, or if they'll say there was a "partnership" with Seiko.

Anyway, it sure is a nice movement. But it is NOT the 100% TAG caliber they pretend it is !

BB



h2xmark said:


> the Seiko 6S37 movement is 40 jewels and the tag 1887 is 39 jewel movement,the 1887 has 320 working parts and the Seiko 6s37 has 290 parts, other items are different also, in a watch case you can only have so many gears, wheels and springs before you run out of space, a watch keeps time so it is common for movements to look similar, but be different.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

the article said that Tag is building the main plate and bridges and oscillating weight plate and the rest would be made at Nivarox a leading swiss company that makes watch parts.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

it really does not depreciate any for me when something is done elsewhere, if done under strict design and control of the company. the Macs and iPhone are made in China, and LOTS of Mercedes-Benz parts are not made in-house.

I know the watch industry may relate to this differently... but this is my opinion.


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi,

In fact, Nivarox is only building the balance spring, nothing else. 

And of course, it doesn't bother if some parts are built somewhere else. The problem is, the DESIGN of this movement is by SEIKO. not TAG HEUER. This is exactely the opposite to what they pretend on their press releases. And in Switzerland, no big company ever has produced mechanical watches using japanese ebauches... until today.

BB


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> Does nayone know the subdial layout for this movement? 12-6-9 or 3-6-9?


i was wondering the same, i dont know on that.
check out this pic of the eta column wheel chrono movement


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Bruno Brazil said:


> ...And in Switzerland, no big company ever has produced mechanical watches using japanese ebauches... until today.
> 
> BB


Strickly speaking, it has not yet happened. The ebauche (base) and the rest of the watch is all made in Switzerland.

I suspect the PR department had no knowledge of the basis of this movement... or they are naive and think they can get away with base deception.


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## Bruno Brazil (Apr 7, 2006)

Hi guys,

Now that's official...

http://www.worldtempus.com/fr/actua...heuer-les-racines-japonaises-du-calibre-1887/

Kudos to TAG, they chose the right path to deal with that.

BB


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

and now... having an in-house copy is something good ? honestly, I got a bit confused on a set opinion...


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## wilfreb (Jul 10, 2007)

''We then crossed a period of shortage of chronograph movements and to gain some independence on this point, we chose to modify and optimize an already existing class. "

this isn't bad at all, this movt is meant to be a mass produced and easy to service movt, so i guess they made the right choice.


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

wilfreb said:


> i doubt a brand like TagHeuer could copy a Seiko movt, lets see how does this goes.


Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform as even if the overall construction may look similar at first glance, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it's manufactured in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects).
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the plate, bridges and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered canon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore quality that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: in house caliber or another company's IP?*

Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

Despite all the content of the previous post, I am honored to see two facts :

1- Our Forum reaching TAG Heuer HQs; and
2- Mr. Babin honorably posting his words here.

Thank you very much for the post. I am sure this is very appreciated by all members and fans.

Enrico De Paoli


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

Bruno Brazil said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have seen the pics, from both calibers. The column wheel, the levers, the springs, everything is strictly identical between the 2.
> 
> ...


Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

h2xmark said:


> the Seiko 6S37 movement is 40 jewels and the tag 1887 is 39 jewel movement,the 1887 has 320 working parts and the Seiko 6s37 has 290 parts, other items are different also, in a watch case you can only have so many gears, wheels and springs before you run out of space, a watch keeps time so it is common for movements to look similar, but be different.


Hi H2Xmarks, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

wilfreb said:


> ''We then crossed a period of shortage of chronograph movements and to gain some independence on this point, we chose to modify and optimize an already existing class. "
> 
> this isn't bad at all, this movt is meant to be a mass produced and easy to service movt, so i guess they made the right choice.


Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
- Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
- Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
- Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
- New assortment centring of the balance wheel also specifically developped by KIF, a leading swiss expert company in balance wheels centrings
- Change and development of a new swiss engineered cannon pinion to increase time-setting overtime reliability
- Redesign of the fixing of ball bearings of the mass to contribute reducing the thickness
- Adjustements to pass the famous "60 TAG Heuer torture tests" in terms of accuracy, reliability, thermical and physical shocks resistancy, chemical agressions etc....
We have today already 45 TAG Heuer people working full time on that project in Switzerland and work with 21 other suppliers for additional parts, most being swiss. Total investment is several tenth of mio USD.
I would therefore qualify that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though, yes, the original IP has been acquired from SII. Please note that the original SII Caliber has always been praised by watches experts.
I hope I answer your questions as well as our fellow Watchuseek lovers !!!
Good evening - JCB


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

enricodepaoli said:


> Despite all the content of the previous post, I am honored to see two facts :
> 
> 1- Our Forum reaching TAG Heuer HQs; and
> 2- Mr. Babin honorably posting his words here.
> ...


Ciao Enrico, always a pleasure to share the evening with other watch lovers. And sincerely apologize if ever I created some confusion initially as it was never meant to be. Remember that in 1969 we did not do it alone either but with Breitling, Buren, Hamilton and Dubois-Depraz. When you want to produce high quality in significant volumes, capitalizing rather than re-inventing the wheel can be a smart idea especially if the outcome is a beautiful, reliable, performant, evolutive and versatile movement. And Caliber 1887 is that. For breakthrough it's another story,......but for everyone apparently, except maybe with TAG Heuer, but then through the V4 and unfortunately with.....only 150 masterpieces produced as we lack capacity for such a daring re-invention of a mechanical movement.


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## JCBTAGHeuer (Dec 7, 2009)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> Does nayone know the subdial layout for this movement? 12-6-9 or 3-6-9?


3-9 !

Friendly - JC


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## wilfreb (Jul 10, 2007)

wow i'm exited to see mr. Babin over here, hope you stay in touch with us forever 

Babin has taken TagHeuer to the extreme with all those superb designs.

and i totally agree with sometimes is better to take an already good product and make it better, than reinvent something new.


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> 3-9 !
> 
> Friendly - JC


Thank you. Can you comment on price points as compared to the Zenith based El Primero (calibre 36) watches?


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Well I have been saving some cash for a high end Tag, so maybe when they get the 1887 out that might be one to take a hard look at, a special thank you goes out to Mr. JC Babin for taking the time to share this great information with the Tag forum here at watchuseek, 
Mark Rush


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## Grantdownunder (Oct 21, 2008)

I'm sure no watchmaker, just a proud TAG owner, so to me the inside of any mechanical watch looks similar to any other. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there seem to be plenty of components that are present in every movement, components that were invented years ago and have been refined over time. Watches, cars, electronics, most things evolve, building on the ideas of those who have gone before. That's progress.

I for one say full marks to TAG for what they have developed here. Hope I can afford to own one one day. And extra credit for a CEO who takes the time to seek out and inform his customers as Mr Babin has done|>. Welcome to the forum Sir.

Grant


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## TobyJC (Nov 24, 2008)

Heh, Definitely a good thing when the CEO comes in to answer a few questions for us Tag Heuer fans. A small gesture like that sometimes goes a long way


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## novedl (May 20, 2009)

now that is responsive and responsible. thank you for the clarity mr. babin!


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## cmeisenzahl (Mar 10, 2006)

VERY interesting & enlightening thread.


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## tomee (Jul 17, 2007)

nice to actually see a CEO response on a forum *JCBabinTAGHeuer.

*


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## sixtysix (Nov 19, 2007)

cmeisenzahl said:


> VERY interesting & enlightening thread.


Agreed...I am thinking 100% 'developed' does not mean what most people would think.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887*

Well, we seem to have uncovered a hornet's nest with this thread. The Public Forum has an even longer thread discussing the Seiko basis of the 1887.

TAG showed some class in having their president issue the 'clarification' on the 1887. (The public forum thread gives us some credit for forcing this disclosure... who knows? I assume they lurk here, reading everything. But they never post!)

As I said originally, interesting, very interesting...


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

*Re: TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887*



Eeeb said:


> .. who knows? I assume they lurk here, reading everything. But they never post!)


Judging from the new names showing up here, I would agree.

Good to see more participation.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

*Re: TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887*



Eeeb said:


> Well, we seem to have uncovered a hornet's nest with this thread. The Public Forum has an even longer thread discussing the Seiko basis of the 1887.
> 
> TAG showed some class in having their president issue the 'clarification' on the 1887. (The public forum thread gives us some credit for forcing this disclosure... who knows? I assume they lurk here, reading everything. But they never post!)
> 
> As I said originally, interesting, very interesting...


It was not only classy, but necessary and intelligent. Even though I am a fan o TAGs, it is strange to see them claiming it is a full in-house movement, when there is something else involved. At least, there were some confusing words there all long.

But yes, it was a good move to make a pronunciation.

Thanks for the thread, Eeeb.


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## parthshah89 (Dec 9, 2009)

JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform as even if the overall construction may look similar at first glance, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it's manufactured in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects).
> - Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
> - Therefore the plate, bridges and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
> - Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
> ...


I sent a personal email to Mr. Babin, and this is what he said, as a clarification:
"
Thanks for your message. I believe Cal 1887 goes as far as and even beyond
than IWC even though I don't know them enough to be sure of my statement.
Basically from a SII 1997 patent (filing) i.e. a very recent one compared
to "mass market chronos" we industrialized and re-developped a 320
components intregrated/column wheel/oscillating pinion mid-sized (29.3 mm /
7.13mm) powered with a high end swiss assortments. We changed many K parts
which we either manufacture directly internally (main plate, bridges,...)
or source from a group of 22 suppliers, 21 being swiss. Assembling is
entirely made in-house as well. As you can see on the web it's a good
looking, well constructed, mid sized, evolutive, accurate and sturdy
movement engineered and industrialized to be produced in significant
volumes (for a luxury chrono). Regarding prices we have always tried to
offer - for the quality and timelessness we propose - the best value for
money from 39.000 INR up to 300.000 INR. It's surely expensive in absolute
but has no matches whatever the price point with top quality and after
sales service.
On SRK, we are good friends and yes, he has a very positive impact on the
Brand, first and foremost because it shows he genuinely like it. Hope it
answers your questions. Friendly and best regards.
JC
PS: can you put it on the forum on my behalf as I'm away from my laptop
tonight? Thx"


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2009)

*Re: in house caliber or another company's IP?*

Please give credits to those you took the pics from. Thank you.


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## Tonster (Feb 21, 2008)

Dear Mr. Babin,

I sincerely thank you for participating on the forum and clarifying this issues for us and I commend you on the work you have done at Tag Heuer. The V4 is an absolute masterpiece and a very important movement not only for Tag Heuer but all horology. 

I hope you keep chiming in from time to time of some of the more important questions some of us may have. Clarity and honesty is very important for a brand to build and maintain trust with their clients. It is nice to see the CEO taking the time to communicate with the most loyal and passionate of Tag's clients. I truly hope to see more of this. It makes me feel better about buying another Tag Heuer in the future knowing that Tag Heuer is improving their relationship with their core fans.


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## Robertus (Mar 22, 2006)

Hope the new caliber can be upgraded with a weekday indicator and thus find its way into the newest Aquaracer 500 m - more later.
Regards: Robertus


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## Claud (Feb 17, 2009)

Oh dear, Tag is busted big time! What a fraud and to think they use Japanese design to top it off. It couldn't be more ironical seeing as Swiss watches are purported to be the best in the world!

I'm totally never buying a Tag in my life now! :-!


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## mirrorman (Nov 25, 2008)

I think it's great when a CEO of a large, International company takes the time to log onto a forum and explain things to fans of their product... :-!

I know nothing about watch movements, but I found this thread very interesting.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

here's a little something extra i found on the net.

*TAG Heuer's definitive new chronograph movement is called Caliber 1887. This mechanism slated to debut in an anniversary Carrera model in 2010 is currently the subject of some controversy.*

Caliber 1887's name alludes to the year Edouard Heuer received a patent for the vibrating pinion that was to become the hallmark of Heuer's chronographs. It is no secret that TAG Heuer-like most of the rest of the Swiss watchmaking industry, the automobile industry, and even the fashion industry-buys in its technology. In fact, only five movements in the prestigious brand's more than 150-year history have been fully assembled in-house to this day.









_*Caliber 1887* © TAG Heuer_

This has never decreased fans' love of the sporty brand; in fact it may well be seen as a quality hallmark that TAG Heuer chooses to use only reliable, tried-and-tested technology rather than develop new calibers akin to reinventing the wheel, which in the end would be far less stable than the ETA bases TAG Heuer chiefly outfits its timepieces with.

Therefore, in producing Caliber 1887, TAG Heuer continues to follow the same simple philosophy: go to the best suppliers to get the best quality at the best price.

*Intellectual property*

Caliber 1887's base is Seiko Caliber TC78, intellectual property purchased in 2006 when reliable chronograph calibers could not be found in Switzerland in quantities necessitated by TAG Heuer. The La Chaux-de-Fonds-based brand purchased the exclusive rights to produce this movement in Europe. And though the design of the movement remains the same to ensure reliability and precision, TAG Heuer now manufactures the components needed to achieve the Swiss Made label and accommodate desired features, and has also increased the quality of the finishing. The base plate, bridges, and rotor are manufactured at TAG Heuer's industrial facility Cortech in Cornol, where a large percentage of the brand's cases are manufactured. It also now accommodates a specialized workshop. The oscillating subassembly comprising the balance spring, pallets, and escape wheel are pure Nivarox, the Swatch Group-owned specialist for escapement parts. And the entire assembly is completed by 45 new employees in TAG Heuer's own factory in La Chaux-de-Fonds, a semi-automated, dust-free workshop created in 2008 when the company expanded its main site by 30% by adding a fourth building. TAG Heuer invested about 25 million Swiss francs and three years to expand its own capabilities to accommodate the industrialization of this new caliber, which is slated for production of about 20,000 pieces in 2010.

*Origins*

Habitually and for various reasons, the western world is used to looking down on products originating in Asia - a prejudice TAG Heuer CEO Jean-Christophe Babin apparently does not wholly agree with. "Caliber TC78 is known as extremely well designed, dependable, versatile, upgradable, and robust. It is therefore an ideal base for refining details and gaining precision, notably in integrating an escapement," he explains.

Which leaves us with just one question: TAG Heuer and Seiko each possess a hallmark chronograph element-the vibrating pinion and the Magic Lever-which respectively act as signatures in movement design. Françoise Bezzola, head of TAG Heuer's communication, clears up the mystery: "The pinion already existed in Caliber TC78. This is another of the reasons why we selected this movement, apart from its accuracy [and reliability]. Since the oscillating pinion is a Heuer invention, it made sense to have it in the 1887. As far as [Seiko's] Magic Lever is concerned, we kept it in our movement. This component allows the technology to gain 30 percent more energy when winding the watch, therefore it was worth keeping."


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Claud said:


> Oh dear, Tag is busted big time! What a fraud and to think they use Japanese design to top it off. It couldn't be more ironical seeing as Swiss watches are purported to be the best in the world!
> 
> I'm totally never buying a Tag in my life now! :-!


if you check around seiko used heuer's invention the vibrating pinion in 
there tc78 caliber, and some of there other movements. 
Which leaves us with just one question: TAG Heuer and Seiko each possess a hallmark chronograph element-the vibrating pinion and the Magic Lever-which respectively act as signatures in movement design. Françoise Bezzola, head of TAG Heuer's communication, clears up the mystery: "The pinion already existed in Caliber TC78. This is another of the reasons why we selected this movement, apart from its accuracy [and reliability]. Since the oscillating pinion is a Heuer invention,


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

Claud said:


> I'm totally never buying a Tag in my life now! :-!


Like you would anyway.:-x


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## Claud (Feb 17, 2009)

Like you would even know me anyway :-d.



Wisconsin Proud said:


> Like you would anyway.:-x


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Claud said:


> Like you would even know me anyway :-d.


Hello Claud, sounds like your not a Tag fan, they are not for everyone, but they do make a nice watch, not the top of the line nor or they at the bottom of the line. they have a wide price range so a lot of people can find something in there range. what brand watches do you own? how many do you have? maybe if i sent you one of my Tag's and let you wear it for a couple weeks you might would change your mind on them.
regards
Mark


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## Claud (Feb 17, 2009)

Sure, I do like some Tag designs, I was very close to buying a Tag Professional 200m on more than one occasion. I actually prefer the vintage Heuer models maybe slightly more.

However, I do not appreciate deceptive marketing and it has spoiled my opinon of the company somewhat.



h2xmark said:


> Hello Claud, sounds like your not a Tag fan, they are not for everyone, but they do make a nice watch, not the top of the line nor or they at the bottom of the line. they have a wide price range so a lot of people can find something in there range. what brand watches do you own? how many do you have? maybe if i sent you one of my Tag's and let you wear it for a couple weeks you might would change your mind on them.
> regards
> Mark


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

A lot of the said things can be very open many of the times. To state something to be totally conceived by them, could be the same a saying..: "the all-new 2010 Toyota Camry". What really is "all new" ?? It also comes with an engine, regular steerin wheel, pistons, plugs, fuel injection... I could go on forever. 

I know Tags are not fully artesanal and hand made. They are not made by one single old watchmaker in his atelier. But, for me, they are top of the line while I choose to have them. They gather the best cost effective, robust, easy to maintain, watches for me. Sporty yet luxurious. They don't always make their own movements, but they make some nice choices. Well, sometimes wrong ones.. Like many companies. 

I understand the disappointment many have on this Seiko issue. I thiught for a while and came to these conclusuions. How much should really be reinvented from scratch ?? These thiughts could go on forever... 

Honda invented Variable Timing Intake. Mercedes uses the same technology.

I still think we wear some nice watches overall by TAG. And i like the fact there is a tag for mostly everyone.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Claud said:


> Sure, I do like some Tag designs, I was very close to buying a Tag Professional 200m on more than one occasion. I actually prefer the vintage Heuer models maybe slightly more.
> 
> However, I do not appreciate deceptive marketing and it has spoiled my opinon of the company somewhat.


I would like to find a nice vintage Heuer watch myself, and I also understand how you feel about the marketing on this movement, i was a little angry myself, but after reading the threads on this movement and the CEO coming on watchuseek has helped to ease some of the tension. If you get that Professional 200m please post some pictures here for us to see.:-!
regards


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

OK, I accept that the TAG Heuer movement is wider and thinner than the Seiko so the ebauche is made in Switzerland, plus all the usual escapement upgrades, but the chronograph design still confuses me:


h2xmark said:


> ...Françoise Bezzola, head of TAG Heuer's communication, clears up the mystery: "*The pinion already existed in Caliber TC78*. This is another of the reasons why we selected this movement, apart from its accuracy [and reliability]. Since the oscillating pinion is a Heuer invention, it made sense to have it in the 1887.


I agree that it makes sense for the 1887 to use the oscillating pinion. there'd be no point to the name otherwaise. But I thought the Seiko 6s37A/TC78 used the vertical clutch system, popularised by Seiko in the 1970s and now used by various Swiss companies such as Rolex.
e.g.
http://www.chronograph.com/store/mli_viewItem.asp?idproduct=44
"top of the line sophisticated 
Seiko automatic movement featuring a 
column wheel and a vertical friction clutch."

:-s


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Chascomm said:


> OK, I accept that the TAG Heuer movement is wider and thinner than the Seiko so the ebauche is made in Switzerland, plus all the usual escapement upgrades, but the chronograph design still confuses me:
> I agree that it makes sense for the 1887 to use the oscillating pinion. there'd be no point to the name otherwaise. But I thought the Seiko 6s37A/TC78 used the vertical clutch system, popularised by Seiko in the 1970s and now used by various Swiss companies such as Rolex.
> e.g.
> http://www.chronograph.com/store/mli_viewItem.asp?idproduct=44
> ...


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

Chascomm said:


> OK, I accept that the TAG Heuer movement is wider and thinner than the Seiko so the ebauche is made in Switzerland, plus all the usual escapement upgrades, but the chronograph design still confuses me:
> I agree that it makes sense for the 1887 to use the oscillating pinion. there'd be no point to the name otherwaise. But I thought the Seiko 6s37A/TC78 used the vertical clutch system, popularised by Seiko in the 1970s and now used by various Swiss companies such as Rolex.
> e.g.
> http://www.chronograph.com/store/mli_viewItem.asp?idproduct=44
> ...


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Ah, I see now. So the shop listing was wrong.










Well that really is a vindication of Heuer that both the Seiko 6s37 and ETA 7750 use the occilating pinion. In a sense, it has more signifcance for TAG Heuer to use a popular Japanese-derived design with occilating pinion as the starting point for the 1887, as it proves just how successful this central design element really is.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

i hope this movement will help to slow Swatch. i think it's a win win for seiko and tag


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

a little more reading... HERE


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

enricodepaoli said:


> a little more reading... HERE


Well done all the whistle-blowing watch-tech nerds here at Watchuseek :-!

I'm also gratified to see the general quality of the discussion on this subject. Compare that with the readers' comments posted on the Luxist article. One took the opportunity to say "TAG are rubbish", another "TAG are not rubbish", and a third said "So what? I love my TAG". Did they even read the article? I'm so glad that the community here can do better than that.


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

An update on the 1887 story, including new comments from TAG Heuer's CEO (originally posted at OnTheDash) and a juicy conspiracy theory from World Tempus

http://www.calibre11.com/calibre-1887-update/


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

calibre 11 said:


> An update on the 1887 story, including new comments from TAG Heuer's CEO (originally posted at OnTheDash) and a juicy conspiracy theory from World Tempus
> 
> http://www.calibre11.com/calibre-1887-update/


Good info. Everything is out in the open. Like you said, let's see some watches!!

My guess is it will be put in a Carrera first.


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

I reckon you're right: Carrera


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

very good info. I had already noticed that many so called "Manufactures" use third party components in their movements... or, they have acquired suppliers of those parts. So, when we imagine that old watch factory that has grown to be a large manufacture in the course of history.. it very likely was NOT like that.

For me, there IS a difference of an old watch atelier that grew to become a large manufacture, and the other way around.. a company that grew to acquire other factories. They all make outstanding watches... but I am just talking some pure history here...

There is plenty of info on that on the web... HERE is a good article.

Cheers !


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

calibre 11 said:


> An update on the 1887 story, including new comments from TAG Heuer's CEO (originally posted at OnTheDash) and a juicy conspiracy theory from World Tempus
> 
> http://www.calibre11.com/calibre-1887-update/


Thanks, I really enjoyed reading the material on your site!
Mark


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## calibre 11 (Jan 2, 2007)

Thanks Mark- and thanks to Jim and Enrico for their support of Calibre 11 this year. :-!

WUS is without doubt the best TH community on the net, so its great to be a part of it.

Happy Christmas to all

(BTW, a nice, brief message from Jean-Christophe Babin has just been added in the comments section of the 1887 Calibre update post)


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Calibre 11, congrats for your site, and thanks for all your input here.

Merry Xmas to all !


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## rain (Dec 25, 2009)

:rodekaart
Hold on a second here.

Sure it's wonderful to have a CEO come and clear this up for us and it is quite an honor of sorts that he graces WUS. The reality is a $2500USD Japanese watch, unfortunately just won't fly off the shelf like its Swiss counterpart. Sadly, the optics of purchasing a watch that's "Asian" (Chinese, Japanese, or Korean) or "non-European" (American) does not carry the weight in prestige, brand influence, and command the same level of refinement that can otherwise be flaunted by the likes of LVMH/Tag.

I have always been a fan of Tag Heuer but this seemingly shifty business practice of initial non-disclosure has rocked their credibility to some extent anyway. Would the measurable impact on their credibility have the same effect if Seiko or Citizen tried to pass off one of their new movements as "100% in-house" only to have a smart someone at WUS discover that it's actually an ETA ebauche? I, for some reason, doubt that it would attract the attention of their respective Chief Executive Officer's to create WUS profiles and post here. With that being said, I'm also not aware of any other CEO's venturing onto any public forums to make posts without doing something through official avenues first and through the company's communications officer. As far as being corporately responsible, IMO, they should have acted more professional and made an announcement on their corporate webpage under News Releases. I do find it a great surprise that all this trouble was taken to clear up this matter. It's not traditional but kinda cool. :-d (btw, Hi JCB!  )

It's too bad that LVMH is limited in resource to what they can offer to Tag in terms of ebauche's. LVMH themselves are doing very well financially, which calls into question why we didn't doubt that Tag could develop and launch their own movement from the ground up in 3 short years. We cannot blame Tag for behaving creative, resourceful, and sourcing reliable parts outside of Switzerland. If anything, I applaud them for choosing proven and sound Asian technology. I do believe it is a shame that Asian and American movements have always stood out of the limelight despite their many innovations, creations, and inventions.:-x

The Tag name appeals to many people with various incomes. As Tag makes greater strides into Rolex/Omega/Breitling territory, I can only hope that their marketing team acts more prudently and from this lesson:-!.

Merry Christmas to all!


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

rain;2539593 The reality is a $2500USD Japanese watch said:


> They took a base Seiko design and refined it to their standards including making the parts in Switzerland. It will have all of the refinement that it's other watches have - maybe more. Costs will actually be higher than the ETA chronos based on all the inhouse manufacturing and setup process.


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## Ahriman4891 (Oct 18, 2008)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> They took a base Seiko design and refined it to their standards including making the parts in Switzerland. It will have all of the refinement that it's other watches have - maybe more.


You realize that it's a high-end Seiko caliber, right? Found in a $3000 Flightmaster -- i.e. it's not a 7S26 in $150 watches. I am not positive Tag's "standards" are higher than Seiko's original ones. Are you saying that Seiko-Epson (manufacturer of numerous high-precision instruments, not just watches) cannot get the same or better tools/production lines as Tag? Please.

P.S.
If this sounds overly harsh please don't mind me -- it's the aftermath of a Christmas party and I am quite intoxicated. But the Swiss snobbery really gets out of hand sometimes...


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## Wisconsin Proud (Jun 22, 2007)

Ahriman4891 said:


> You realize that it's a high-end Seiko caliber, right? Found in a $3000 Flightmaster -- i.e. it's not a 7S26 in $150 watches. I am not positive Tag's "standards" are higher than Seiko's original ones. Are you saying that Seiko-Epson (manufacturer of numerous high-precision instruments, not just watches) cannot get the same or better tools/production lines as Tag? Please.
> 
> P.S.
> If this sounds overly harsh please don't mind me -- it's the aftermath of a Christmas party and I am quite intoxicated. But the Swiss snobbery really gets out of hand sometimes...


Yawn.......Ive seen the pictures. TAG's tooling end product looks much better than Seikos.


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## rain (Dec 25, 2009)

Wisconsin Proud said:


> They took a base Seiko design and refined it to their standards including making the parts in Switzerland. It will have all of the refinement that it's other watches have - maybe more. Costs will actually be higher than the ETA chronos based on all the inhouse manufacturing and setup process.





Wisconsin Proud said:


> Yawn.......Ive seen the pictures. TAG's tooling end product looks much better than Seikos.


The intent is not to flame up an argument here but there's no doubt in the tone of your message that you're certain Tag refinement is without a doubt better than its Japanese counterpart. :think: My opinion is that this is a sad perception and I'm forced to agree with some comments made by Ahriman4891.

It's unfortunate that the stigma persists-- Swiss made is better than Japanese made regardless of whether you have seen pictures, or been to the brand new Tag factory, or even live in the factory. The truth is, the Tag factory is brand new, the Seiko factor has been crunching out templates long before the conception of the 1887, and much longer before ETA decided to limit their ebauche's that Tag and others have relied on for so long.

Some horologists will tell you, between the technology in the seiko ebauche and the modified Tag 1887, the comparison is unfair. 1970's technology to 2000's technology. It is hardly an apples to apples comparison given the computer controlled and logic driven machines of today that can optimize and modernize antiquated industrial designs. They each within their own rights carry advantages and disadvantages. Some see the Tag 1887 as a modern interpretation to the robust Seiko movement or the present day potential of 1970's Japanese/Swiss mixed technology. Does that mean Tag has the upper hand here? No. Does it mean Seiko, who R&D'ed the base of this heart is better? No. What it means is when you have various companies that agree to sell/share technology, the end result is a net benefit to consumers; from innovations like the Seiko magic lever to the Tag column wheel. Neither the new 1887 or the 6S37 would be around without each company innovating and conceptualizing new technology. And neither of those movements would be around had Rolex not innovated the creation of water resistant cases or automatic movements.

There are fans of each company. It goes without saying that both Tag and Seiko have a loyal following. A problem arises when one supposes one is better over the other when an objective apples-to-apples analysis cannot be delivered.

There is little difference in the automotive industry. An analogy. I.E. dutch Spyker supercars that make use of the german-made Audi motors/ or the RUF's that drop their own mods into Porsche's but are considered their own manufacturer. The debates among auto enthusiast persist and are as heated as watch debates.

I am however horrified to hear that Tag cannot keep costs down on the 1887 but you have not been specific about which ETA chorno you're referring to and am unclear where you gathered that data. The base technology for the 1887 has been developed and has been in use for over 30 years already. That is one of the main reasons (stability and reliability) that appealed to Tag (in particular the movement's use of the Tag column wheel creation). With modern technology, improvements on processes and machines, and keeping in mind that the 1887 is made by machine and not by hand. No one is really re-inventing the wheel here. So why would machining a bridge for the 1887 cost any more than making a bridge for a modified ETA movement? The statement about higher costs almost sounds absurd without reference to financial data.

You may have a point that Tag may struggle with growing pains in its associated higher production costs as it enters the 1887 into the market. Granted, the economies between Japan and Switzerland are very different but production costs for this movement over time will most certainly come down if you consider not only the considerably "short" 3 year development time and improvements to the Seiko ebauche but also the initial capital investment of their new facility to be built in to the cost of the movement. Both tangible and intangible assets (design/machines) will certainly lose value over time as new technology and improved designs come out. Having said all this, one cannot ignore the fact that it is really Swatch that catalyzed Tag to built their own production facilities.

You made a good point. Despite the lower production costs of some ETA movements, it is absurd in my opinion, that some manufacturers pass off base ETA movements, with little in-house tweeking, to the consumers in stylish looking watches; namely some B&R pieces....but that's another thread and only my opinion.:roll:

Anyway, there isn't any need to feel like this is a personal attack, but keep an open mind that ALL opinions on the global interweb are valid. I respect your opinions as I hope you to mine.


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## h2xmark (Feb 28, 2009)

I am however horrified to hear that Tag cannot keep costs down on the 1887 but you have not been specific about which ETA chorno you're referring to and am unclear where you gathered that data. The base technology for the 1887 has been developed and has been in use for over 30 years already. That is one of the main reasons (stability and reliability) that appealed to Tag (in particular the movement's use of the Tag column wheel creation). With modern technology, improvements on processes and machines, and keeping in mind that the 1887 is made by machine and not by hand. No one is really re-inventing the wheel here. So why would machining a bridge for the 1887 cost any more than making a bridge for a modified ETA movement? The statement about higher costs almost sounds absurd without reference to financial data.



the 7750 is the main auto chrono movement that Tag has used . the caliber 36 is the zenith movement. and the price increase on the 1887 is a lot due to the fact that Tag has resized the base movement design, changed up a few things such as different number of jewels, ect. all of which will increase price, remember the more you make of anything the price will come down,


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## rain (Dec 25, 2009)

I just want to reiterate that although it is highly unorthodox to have a CEO clear up a public relations "mishap", it is nice to see JCBabin's participation. Nevertheless, many of us watch lovers welcome JCBabin's posts and his effort to clear up the recent confusion regarding the 1887 during its inaugural release.

Before there are any more of public rants on the number of improvements the 1887 has made over the base Seiko TC78, it is important to firstly understand JCBabin's interpretation of what is consider in-house.

Some may refer to a definition as interpreted here: hxxp://montresuisses.blogspot.com/2006/11/terms-of-art-in-house-movement.html


> ...This very specifically includes the design, architecture, specifications and prototyping of a watchworks.


Additionally, what's troubling is the original design and architecture was intellectual property purchased by Tag as JCBabin expressed here. 


JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997





JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> When you want to produce high quality in significant volumes, capitalizing rather than re-inventing the wheel can be a smart idea especially if the outcome is a beautiful, reliable, performant, evolutive and versatile movement.


BUT we all know this already. Fortunately, what can be agreed on is that there isn't a unified definition of what is, and what isn't considered built in-house from the _Dictionnaire professionnel illustree de l'horlogerie_. However, Tag continues to emphasize that the movement is built in their shops. By their definition, might this be what Tag considers as "in-house"? The problem is, how would that differentiate from (i.e.) Breitling using heavily modified ETA movements in their shops? And by that note, one can argue that an ETA movement that is 96.75% modified to include updates on technology and design optimizations or 0.5% modified but entirely assembled in the manufacturer's house can be considered an "in-house" movement? It's curious. Particularly since JCBabin acknowledges _they didn't_ "re-invent the wheel" like the way Rolex 4130, Omega 8500, or Breitling B01 did. The curiosity extends from the fact that there is no standardized definition, only an abstract understanding by the honor of the manufacturer, of what has traditionally been considered in-house. Why? Because "in-house" or "not in-house" is marketing terminology that doesn't reflect on precision, accuracy, or quality although these points may be implied. For instance, one cannot say with absolute certainty that an in-house movement is 99.9% accurate or even 0.1% accurate. (Although one would hope it is more than 0.1% accurate :-d) One can say with confidence however that a chronometer is 99.9% accurate.

So what can really be dissected from a statement like this:


JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> I would therefore quality that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer even though the original IP has been acquired from SII.


is the fact that it is advertisement more than a reflection on measurable quality standards and movement stability. That is why I personally see there is so much emphasis on whether it is in-house or not. Most likely marketing these watches with the "in-house" term makes them more desirable considering the exclusitivity and the clout attached to those words. It allows Tag to come closer to the upper echelons, the league of the "big boys" proverbially speaking.



h2xmark said:


> the 7750 is the main auto chrono movement that Tag has used . the caliber 36 is the zenith movement. and the price increase on the 1887 is a lot due to the fact that Tag has resized the base movement design, changed up a few things such as different number of jewels, ect. all of which will increase price, remember the more you make of anything the price will come down,


I don't take any offense but no need to patronize. I just fail to see where you derive your information regarding pricing. Synthetic sapphire crystal "jewels" cost pennies to make. If you're referring me to Economics 101, then you shouldn't ignore the fact that the 1887 is machine manufactured and consider economies of scale.

Bottom line: wear whatever what you have with pride-- wear it because it represents an ageless industry that represents something that isn't 
tangible but its concept in its entirely is manufactured by man...and you should be proud b-)


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## FranClar (Nov 1, 2009)

> I would therefore quality that movement as really in-house and manufactured by TAG Heuer


In house? sorry but NO. NEVER :-|

In my opinion, you have modified (high or low is irrelevant to me) the movement to another company and have not developed their own design. The original idea to another company and the original design too.

Nothing has to do it based Seiko caliber because I consider it a great movement.

But to say that is a movement in house ... :rodekaart For me it never will be

No doubt the movement has been greatly improved and is great but my opinion and the opinion of many other fans will not ever change in this aspect

Greetings!!


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## asiafish (Nov 25, 2008)

JCBabinTAGHeuer said:


> Hi, I'm J.C. Babin the CEO of TAG Heuer, and YES, the new Caliber 1887 is based on a SII (Seiko Instruments Inc.) TC78 platform developped and patented in 1997 (filing) and eversince produced in very limited quantities, apparently for Junghans and Seiko watches in Japan. The caliber we propose and announced last week in London is a major evolution of this platform even though I aknowledge that the overall construction may look similar at first glance. However, the TAG Heuer movement is much different in terms of components, size and eventually performances, not to mention it is manufactured (all its key components including plate, bridges, assortment, cannon pinion, eccentrics etc....) in Switzerland in TAG Heuer workshops of Cornol (Cortech - a company owned by TAG Heuer and already producing TAG Heuer and Zenith cases) and La Chaux-de-Fonds (where we have also the HQs and where we added 30.000 sq feet more last year for movements assembling and other manufacturig projects) as well as from "best in class" partners such as Nivarox.
> - Dimensions: it's broader (29.3 mm vs 28 mm) and thinner (7.13 mm vs 7.27 mm)
> - Therefore the main plate, bridges - especially the chronograph bridge - and oscillating mass have been significantly modified to allow this evolution
> - Its assortment is a swiss asortment specifically developped by Nivarox for TAG Heuer, and allowing to improve further accuracy and shocks resistancy
> ...


It is responses such as this that show customers what a company is really about. I've always been a fan of Tag Heuer design and quality, and the Cal 1887 is another on the list of watches I'd like to own.

FWIW, there is nothing wrong with building on existing IP, or with the modification and tuning of an out-sourced movement. ETA and the like sell so many movements to high-end watch companies because they make very fine movements. My Monaco (Calibre 17) uses a modified ETA 2892, while my Carrera Calibre 1 uses an ETA (Unitas) 6498. I also own a Calibre S (in house), and of all of my watches, the Calibre 1 is my favorite, despite it having the simplest and arguably the cheapest movement.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

asiafish said:


> It is responses such as this that show customers what a company is really about. I've always been a fan of Tag Heuer design and quality, and the Cal 1887 is another on the list of watches I'd like to own.
> 
> FWIW, there is nothing wrong with building on existing IP, or with the modification and tuning of an out-sourced movement. ETA and the like sell so many movements to high-end watch companies because they make very fine movements. My Monaco (Calibre 17) uses a modified ETA 2892, while my Carrera Calibre 1 uses an ETA (Unitas) 6498. I also own a Calibre S (in house), and of all of my watches, the Calibre 1 is my favorite, despite it having the simplest and arguably the cheapest movement.


It's nice to have a variety of movements within your watch collection, and appreciate their differences.


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## asiafish (Nov 25, 2008)

enricodepaoli said:


> It's nice to have a variety of movements within your watch collection, and appreciate their differences.


Very much so. The Calibre 1887 is at or near the top of my list, along with the new Calibre de Cartier. That the 1887 is based on a Seiko design suggests to me that it will be an extremely durable and accurate movement.


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

asiafish said:


> Very much so. The Calibre 1887 is at or near the top of my list, along with the new Calibre de Cartier. That the 1887 is based on a Seiko design suggests to me that it will be an extremely durable and accurate movement.


I didn't think it could get any more robust than the ETA 2824 and 2892 !


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## charles888 (Mar 25, 2013)

Hello, I received a TAG as a gift and to put it bluntly I want to sell it.

I really have no idea how to value it. Here are a few pics.

I would appreciate the help.

Thanks
View attachment 1021798
View attachment 1021798


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

Hi Charles, we don't do evaluations here, nor can we advertise for sale posts in the forum. There is a special sub-forum specifically for that matter. Thanks for your understanding, good luck and enjoy watchuseek !


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

Bumping an old thread- very interesting read. So. How are the 1887s performing in terms of accuracy and reliability?


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

My year old is pretty much dead on -6 a day.
I did a little observation and kept a daily record a while back so if you do a thread started search from my profile, you should find it.


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## Kuifje (Oct 23, 2012)

My six months old is doing about -10/day. Since I don't wear it daily its not such a big issue, but I'm not very happy with this; I expected it to be better regulated.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

*Re: TAG Heuer - New mechanism 1887*

Thanks guys. I would have expected a little tighter regulation too. Perhaps you're outliers.

Truthfully though, positional variance is more telling. A movement with minimum positional variance can be easily regulated by my local Tag dealer to perform very very well.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

Will_f said:


> Thanks guys. I would have expected a little tighter regulation too. Perhaps you're outliers.
> 
> Truthfully though, positional variance is more telling. A movement with minimum positional variance can be easily regulated by my local Tag dealer to perform very very well.


Correction.

The 1887 showed a -4 deviation per day over the two weeks compared to the +4 the PO showed over the same period.
It was the Precista that was 6 seconds.

I never got around to doing the same observation in the other positions when I got back to the UK.


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## jsizzie_2004 (Apr 24, 2009)

Necro-Post Alert!

I just saw that video about this made by Aussie Lad ArchieLuxury over at his channel on youtube and LOLd so much on how he went berserk with TAG HUER as a brand which will never be respected..my thoughts are the same with him, sorry guys;


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## enricodepaoli (Feb 24, 2008)

jsizzie_2004 said:


> Necro-Post Alert!
> 
> I just saw that video about this made by Aussie Lad ArchieLuxury over at his channel on youtube and LOLd so much on how he went berserk with TAG HUER as a brand which will never be respected..my thoughts are the same with him, sorry guys;


He seems like a good person to trust. :-!


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## GeeTeeOoh (May 27, 2014)

enricodepaoli said:


> He seems like a good person to trust. :-!


I may be a Seiko guy and while I can't stand Archie and his hatred of Japanese watches, he's actually right about Tag's dishonest release.


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