# Disappointed with F06.411 by ETA



## Boomerdw

It is contained in a Tissot Pro 100 Chronometer. Running two seconds fast after last setting 5 weeks back. I wear it at night and the GS during the day. Just to keep it more uniform comparison. In real world talk this is adequate I understand, just going to be far off the claimed 10say. Gotta find somebody to give this too.

Compared to my Grand Seiko 9F SBGX119 which is still spot on in the same period.

Plus the 9F is adjustable whereas the ETA movement isn't.

Good thing I bought the Tissot on line, very cheap through Jomashop. Who I do not recommended using..if you have an issue of some sort. Very very poor after sales communication. Like none existent.


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## Hans Moleman

Boomerdw said:


> It is contained in a Tissot Pro 100 Chronometer. Running two seconds fast after last setting 5 weeks back. I wear it at night and the GS during the day. Just to keep it more uniform comparison. In real world talk this is adequate I understand, just going to be far off the claimed 10say. Gotta find somebody to give this too.
> 
> Compared to my Grand Seiko 9F SBGX119 which is still spot on in the same period.
> 
> Plus the 9F is adjustable whereas the ETA movement isn't.
> 
> Good thing I bought the Tissot on line, very cheap through Jomashop. Who I do not recommended using..if you have an issue of some sort. Very very poor after sales communication. Like none existent.


Now do the same test with the roles reversed:
Wear the Tissot during the day, and sleep with the Grand Seiko.


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## MarkieB

2 seconds in 5 weeks is only 20 seconds per year. Reset it and check again


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## gangrel

Boomerdw said:


> It is contained in a Tissot Pro 100 Chronometer. Running two seconds fast after last setting 5 weeks back. I wear it at night and the GS during the day. Just to keep it more uniform comparison. In real world talk this is adequate I understand, just going to be far off the claimed 10say. Gotta find somebody to give this too.


ETA does not make an explicit 10 SPY claim. They state PreciDrive has COSC quartz accuracy, which is 0.07 seconds per day...or about 2 seconds per month. Which is what you're getting.


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## tmathes

gangrel said:


> ETA does not make an explicit 10 SPY claim. They state PreciDrive has COSC quartz accuracy, which is 0.07 seconds per day...or about 2 seconds per month. Which is what you're getting.


My DS2 chrono is around like 24 sec/year so 2 sec/month sounds like something within their trim range. My DS-8 is 15 sec/yr. Both are more that adequate for my needs so I find zero reason to send them in for adjustments to reach 10 sec/yr.

I'm curious then how Certina makes this claim though, in two samples neither reach the stated claim.


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## chris01

If you go here: https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DefaultDesktop.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=28

and select this calibre in the drop-down list, then open the Manufacturing Information document, you'll see under Performances that they claim an initial rate of +/-10 SPY with normal wear between 20 and 30 degC. Higher or lower temperatures (and probably infrequent wearing) can double this. They also mention achieving COSC specs, at the beginning of the document.

These ETA specs vary between different PreciDrive movements, and sometimes Certina specifies accuracy in the corresponding watch user manual. What does the Tissot manual say?


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## gangrel

The doc says that's the typical performance. And there's plenty of waffle language. Feels like there's lots of wiggle room for ETA here. This is getting into lawyerspeak, but unless the manual says 10 SPY in a clearer way, I think the standard for "performing as indicated" is the COSC numbers.


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## wbird

Sorry to hear that the only way that Tissot would be worth keeping would be if it ran at 10 s/yr. It must be butt ugly, fit like crap, or have some other serious short comings if an extra 10 s/yr is reason enough to jetison it. Considering that you have to hack it a couple of times per year it would never be off by more than 10s, but if that's not good enough then ditch it.


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## Miguel

Hi,

You were lucky (sarcasm). I bought the Certina DS-2 (three-hand) from Jomashop and it was doing one second every two days!!!, or something around that. I returned it and bought again from another dealer. Now , it works beautifully:

Regards,

Miguel


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## kapahoo

I have a Certina DS-8 where the chronograph keeps changing its zero-position (the watch have been on two long vacations in The Swatch Group Service Resort but the malfunctioning chrono keep coming back).
I have noticed that every time I reset the chrono, the watch loses time. My watch have lost 25 seconds in two months.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

There is a tendency here to castigate ETA for the inaccuracy/absence/etc. of their specifications. It should be remembered that ETA sells absolutely nothing to the retail end-user. Their only contractual relationship is with their direct customers - the watch manufacturers. And it is the latter to whom we should look for correct specification of performance. If your watch falls short of what you expect you should be criticising the manufacturer. Your available redress depends on a combination of manufacturer's warranty and national consumer legislation, which may direct all your issues to the final seller. If Tissot et al don't guarantee a specific performance under defined conditions then you have to rely on the goodwill of one of the two relevant parties. It is rather surprising to me that ETA makes the technical documentation of many of its calibres publicly available.


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## wbird

I agree with you 100% Chris. My Certina and most of the ones bought by other members in the last couple of years, with the exception of Miguel's, are running at a little or well over 10 s/yr. The complaints should be with Certina or Tissot. For that matter what difference should the dealer make? They don't have anything to do with the making or quality of the product they just sell them. 

But of course when I have a problem with my Certina it will be resolved by Swatch at the Swatch Service Center and they happen to own ETA.


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## StephenCanale

Boomerdw said:


> I wear it at night and the GS during the day. Just to keep it more uniform comparison.


To quote Emily Litella, "nevermind..."


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## chris01

wbird said:


> I agree with you 100% Chris. My Certina and most of the ones bought by other members in the last couple of years, with the exception of Miguel's, are running at a little or well over 10 s/yr. The complaints should be with Certina or Tissot. For that matter what difference should the dealer make? They don't have anything to do with the making or quality of the product they just sell them.
> 
> But of course when I have a problem with my Certina it will be resolved by Swatch at the Swatch Service Center and they happen to own ETA.


In the UK and, I believe, in other EU countries, the only legal redress for the user is against the retailer. Of course the manufacturer may offer a usable warranty, and may even go beyond that on a goodwill basis, but outside that in general the user has to start with the retailer. Many sellers will try to deny responsibility but an informed buyer will insist. Tough luck for the retailer, but it's the law. One would expect that they can then sort it out with the manufacturer. Obviously if the official service centre can and will fix it then everyone's happy.


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## GlennO

StephenCanale said:


> More importantly: is it on a winder set to the correct TPD when you're not wearing it?


:-s

Don't think that's going to help much.


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## StephenCanale

"Fail" on my part!


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## gangrel

chris01 said:


> Your available redress depends on a combination of manufacturer's warranty and national consumer legislation, which may direct all your issues to the final seller. If Tissot et al don't guarantee a specific performance under defined conditions then you have to rely on the goodwill of one of the two relevant parties. It is rather surprising to me that ETA makes the technical documentation of many of its calibres publicly available.


There is a manufacturer baseline statement.

PowerDrive & PreciDrive â€" our new technologies | Manufacture HorlogÃ¨re Suisse | ETA SA



> PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass theCOSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c. This precision can be achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle, which controls and regulates the motor pulses according to changes in the ambient temperature. By virtue of combining the quartz and integrated circuit in the same waterproof case, the precision is insensitive to moisture.


I think, in the EU and US at least, these would be fundamental performance claims which could be required.

Plus, I think the relationship between ETA and Tissot is too intermingled to push the weight of claim to Tissot. Tissot, Hamilton, Mido, and Certina all co-use movements, and all use nothing but ETA movements. I don't believe any of them make any mods at all; the only differences are cosmetic. (Stamping, rotors on the autos, that sort of thing.) This is not a contractual relationship, such as ETA has with, say, Archimede or Stowa for 2824s.


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## gangrel

StephenCanale said:


> You don't think that keeping a watch properly wound will affect it's performance and consistency?
> 
> Or are you saying something else, and I'm misunderstanding the comment?


Do you recognize the forum in which this thread resides?


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## StephenCanale

gangrel said:


> Do you recognize the forum in which this thread resides?


Not until now.. LOL

Thanks!


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## Miguel

wbird said:


> I agree with you 100% Chris. My Certina and most of the ones bought by other members in the last couple of years, with the exception of Miguel's, are running at a little or well over 10 s/yr. The complaints should be with Certina or Tissot. For that matter what difference should the dealer make? They don't have anything to do with the making or quality of the product they just sell them.
> 
> But of course when I have a problem with my Certina it will be resolved by Swatch at the Swatch Service Center and they happen to own ETA.


My Tissot Powermatic 80 COSC was out of specs (bought from an AD here in Montréal that offered a very good deal). I took it to the Swatch Service Center and after four weeks, the watch was working properly and not a penny to pay. I suppose they changed the movement by another COSC certified one. Completely worries free.


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## wbird

Miguel, was referring to your DS-2's, you've had more luck than most with your Precidrive watches. Sorry to hear Swatch/Tissot let you down with the COSC auto, but fixed it, whether by replacement or regulation. 

Chris I would think the US, EU, and whatever happens in the UK that the process is very similar when it comes to resolution of issues. The retailer is on the hook during the period of return or replace typically anywhere from 30 to 60 days depending on the retailer's terms of sale. After this period you either have the in the case of gray market sales the retailer's warranty company or if from an AD the manufacturers warranty. So with my Certina quartz and my official international warranty card stamped and dated by an AD I could go to any watchmaker authorized by Swatch to work on a Certina to have the watch repaired. In the US that would be the Swatch Service Canters in NJ and California.

On a different note, Miguel is it just the camera angle or are second hands on your DS-2's showing about a one or two seconds difference?


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## Boomerdw

wbird said:


> Sorry to hear that the only way that Tissot would be worth keeping would be if it ran at 10 s/yr. It must be butt ugly, fit like crap, or have some other serious short comings if an extra 10 s/yr is reason enough to jetison it. Considering that you have to hack it a couple of times per year it would never be off by more than 10s, but if that's not good enough then ditch it.


The watch isn't anything special. I guess for the none WIS is is fine. But alongside the GS it is very pedestrian.

Some where along my research I came across the 10 say claim.

For now I guess I am stuck with it


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## Miguel

Hi,

At this moment the DS-2 Chrono is at +1,33 from the reference, the DS-2 is at +0,18 from the reference (www.time.gov). So it would be a combination of Camera angle, difference and the exact moment I took he picture.

The DS-2 chrono was set on Mars 10th, the DS-2 on May 5th .

Cheers,

Miguel


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## Nom de Forum

Sorry to hear the OP is not getting the accuracy he expects. The ETA movement in my Certina DS Action Titanium is gaining less than a second a month. Can't help but think it is to be expected that with the volume and price point Tissot and Certina have they will put out a few lemons that need repair or replacement.


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## wbird

OP maybe its an expectations thing, but I think the 3-400$ Certina's and Tissot's sold at places like Joma are a decent value for the money. I don't think they hit above their weight, but are equal to other watches at their price point. I do think comparing a ~300$ Tissot to a 2000$ GS is a little bit unfair and unrealistic, don't you think? When you bought it did you really expect GS quality on a watch at that price point? I do agree no point being stuck with it, just regift it or pass it on to a friend or family member, and get something nicer.

Thanks Miguel for clearing that up. I take it the DS-2 is the new toy in the collection, and didn't have to deal with DST with the chrono. Just a pet peeve of mine my RC and RX watches are in sync but my HAQ Certina and Bulova are displaying different times.


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## hughesyn

After reading this thread, I am going to stick some of my quartz watches on the winder to see if that improves their isochronism.

The effects of gravity on a crystal oscillator are not to be underestimated.


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## ronalddheld

hughesyn said:


> After reading this thread, I am going to stick some of my quartz watches on the winder to see if that improves their isochronism.
> 
> The effects of gravity on a crystal oscillator are not to be underestimated.


 I know you are not serious,.But will there be any medium term effects to the crystal housing and mounting?


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## Miguel

Nom de Forum said:


> Sorry to hear the OP is not getting the accuracy he expects. The ETA movement in my Certina DS Action Titanium is gaining less than a second a month. Can't help but think it is to be expected that with the volume and price point Tissot and Certina have they will put out a few lemons that need repair or replacement.


I do not know if there is a pattern here, but both my original DS-2 and the OP's Tissot came from Joma... The grey market is tricky. These watches could have been considered good enough for sale in the GM.

Non, both my DS-2 and DS-2 chrono came from ADs and they work perfectly.

Someone in another thread (sorry I do not remember who) made what I think, a good suggestion: if the price in the grey market plus the cost of service is less than the retail price then do not bother sending the watch to the seller's service center: pay for the repair in your local swatch service center and you will even get a two-year manufacturer warranty.

Cheers,

Miguel


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## dicioccio

I think you're talking about me. I've bought the watch at Jomashop then I've realized the watch was a lot off specs and so I've sent it to a Swatch repair center in Milan (I'm from Rome). For 100 euro I've got all the electronic module and the three hands replaced and the watch pressure tested. Anyway a good deal.

The whole story is documented here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-action-diver-watch-review-2960578.html#post33577754

Have a nice reading !


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## wbird

Considering gray market inventory comes from AD's, it seems a bit of a stretch that an AD would actually test a watch and if out of spec send it to the GM. If they did test it and found it out of spec or defective they could return it to mfg. at a better return than sending it to the GM. Should mention my AD has sent inventory that wasn't moving to Joma and got to visit their warehouse, he said he saw full pallets of watches from all over the world coming in and being inventoried. 

I guess the point is that defective watch from Joma could have just as easily been sold at an AD for a lot more a few days before it ended up on the gray market.


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## dicioccio

i agree with you wbird !

From my point of view, the chance to get a defective watch from the grey market is the same from a AD, so it is worth to get a chance. My personal experience was anyway good since I've spent more or less the same as if I would have bought the watch from a AD. Moreover I've experienced a very good service from Swatch !


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## Boomerdw

I was told my a watch maker, certified for manuals and quartz work, that shops like Joma get seconds so to speak. The pieces do not meet 1st quality.

Mine came not running and it turned out the battery contact has some previous battery crude on it. It just needed a cleaning. The battery was tested good. This was a supposedly new watch from Jomashop. 

Returns and such get refurbished and sold to the grey market dealers.


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## wbird

Sounds like your watchmaker is spreading some conspiracy theories and based on his occupation never dealt directly with them. His statements are also in direct conflict with what Joma posts "they are new 100% authentic and never refurbished" on their website. 

But more importantly it makes no sense. First who is doing this refurbishing? An AD will not bother, they send defective watches back to the Mfg. for full credit. Joma sub contracts their repairs, so their not interested in repairs and refurbishing. So where is Joma getting these seconds and refurbs from? Joma works with AD's to get the majority of their inventory, and when they sell an open box or "used" watch they clearly label it as such. 

The better explanation is that a lot of the watches selling on the Joma site set a long time at an AD, and a little longer still at Joma. You can run into a bad watch anywhere, I was browsing at an AD and asked to see an Oris chrnograph wanted to get a sense of how the winding mechanism and how well the chronograph functioned. Took it out of the case I wound it, Sales person wound it some more, shook it, nothing. Sales person apologized, took it out of the case and said this is going back to the vendor.

To be clear I don't work for and am not associated with them in any way other than buying 3 watches from them and having to return one for replacement. So if you say their customer service sorta sucks (long wait times, and a little attitude) agreed, misleading on their site if the item is in inventory resulting in unexpected wait times if you don't call and wait a long time on hold for an answer to confirm its in stock sure, do they respond to emails in a timely manner, not been my experience.

I don't buy them for those reasons the watches I purchased were new and authentic, their prices are really good and when I had to make a return for replacement the process from start to finish took a week. Just saying they've been in business for over 20 years in NYC which has probably the toughest consumer protection groups in the country monitoring them I think their above board.


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## Boomerdw

Well you are probably correct regarding the old stock.

I called numerous times and sent emails and never heard a peep from Joma. I actually wanted to return the watch.

One time I was on hold for near 45 minutes and just before closing time was told that they are closed and to call back. All the other calls I was never able to get through. I sent more than a few Emails. I took it upon myself to have the watch looked at hoping it was just the battery. As it turns out it was but the battery tested good and it looked like corrosion from a prior battery was present on the contact point.

I am not sure how mfgs handle return items or items that have a quality issue. It would not surprise me a bit to see them back on the grey market, even without the mfgs consent.


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## wbird

Mfgs would never sell directly to a gray market even seconds. It would break their terms and conditions with their AD's. Remember AD's have to do a lot of things for the mfg. to be an AD including the purchase of a set number of watches every year to keep their agreement. If mfgs started under cutting their AD's by putting less expensive product on the market they would sue the crap out of them.

Don't forget that the AD's, mfgs. and the gray market all have reputations to maintain, none of them have any interest in moving bad product. If an AD sent a bad product to Joma, than Joma is really hung out to dry. Their reputation is hurt, and they have to deal with an upset customer and a return. They really don't have much of a recourse other than to send it back to the AD they bought it from and threaten to never buy from them again if this is a pattern. AD's need the gray market so they aren't sitting on a pile of inventory so they don't want to mess with this relationship. 

If you want to get Joma on the phone call between 10 and 2 put them on speaker and be prepared to wait about 30 minutes, but once they get on the phone they have been very helpful in the times I've checked inventory before I placed an order or when I had to make a return.


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## vietnam92

wbird said:


> I do think comparing a ~300$ Tissot to a 2000$ GS is a little bit unfair and unrealistic, don't you think?


That's true 
That's all!


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## gangrel

Let dead threads remain buried...especially if that's all you have to say.


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## ronalddheld

I agree. Thread closed.


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