# Where are Stowa cases made?



## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

Does anyone know where Stowa sources their cases? Are they German/European or sourced from Asia?


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## narwhal (Feb 17, 2007)

I believe the seatime/prodivers are Fricker. Not sure whether the others are, but I am certain they are not asian.


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## roberev (Mar 15, 2006)

According to Mike Stuffler's review, the Marine Automatic case also is made by Fricker.

Rob


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## Erik_H (Oct 23, 2006)

Mike's review:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=59105

Quote from the review:

The case is "Made in Germany" by leading German case maker Walter Fricker ( http://www.w-fricker.de ). The Fricker reference list is speaking for itself:

• Jochen Benzinger, Pforzheim 
• Rainer Brand, Heimbuchenthal 
• ETA SA, Grenchen
• Harer, Pforzheim 
• Hanhart, Gütenbach
• Jacques Etoile, Lörrach
• Junghans, Schramberg
• Kobold Instruments, Pittsburgh
• Lacher, Pforzheim
• Marcello C., Würselen
• Mühle, Glashütte 
• Robergé Genève, Le Brassus
• Nienaber, Bünde
• ORIS, Hölstein
• Eddie Platts, UK (Timefactors)
• Point TEC, Ismaning
• RGM, Lancaster (USA)
• Sinn, Frankfurt
• Schauer, Engelsbrand
• Timex, Pforzheim
• Temption, Herrenberg
• Tutima, Ganderkesee

Erik_H


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

expwmbat said:


> Does anyone know where Stowa sources their cases? Are they German/European or sourced from Asia?


Why should I care?:-s

As long as the quality is really outstanding, the case might be drilled by flying witches. No issue for me.:roll:

Volker


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## Erik_H (Oct 23, 2006)

brainless said:


> Why should I care?:-s


Some of us do. And we are appreciating that Jorg also cares.

Erik_H


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

Perhaps I misunderstood, sorry.

But.......can you please tell me the difference between a well made case of asian origin and one being made in europe?


Volker


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## expwmbat (Feb 17, 2006)

I was asking on behalf of someone else. To me, what is most important is the quality, and there is no question in my mind that the quality is first rate.

Best,
Daniel


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## Ptern (May 7, 2006)

Fricker cases with quality work from Schauer/Stowa...|>


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

Volker,
Your point is well made 
It should not matter where the case is made as long as it is made of best quality. Seiko and Citizen cases are excellent.

It is however nice and refreshing to see a German watch made of German case even though it has a Swiss heart.

Cheers,
Bhanu


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## narwhal (Feb 17, 2007)

Erik_H said:


> Some of us do. And we are appreciating that Jorg also cares.
> 
> Erik_H


Agreed - to some of us, it makes all the difference.


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## teg33 (Feb 20, 2008)

usc1 said:


> Would you guys still buy a Stowa watch if the parts were being manufactured in Asia? :think:
> 
> Just curious.


As long as it got quality, no problem


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

No, I would not. Would you buy a Porsche with a body made in China? Even if it was of good quality, I still wouldn't buy it.

It's just NOT RIGHT!!!!!


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

Would you guys still buy a Stowa watch if the parts were being manufactured in Asia? :think:

Just curious.


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

fachiro1 said:


> No, I would not. Would you buy a Porsche with a body made in China? Even if it was of good quality, I still wouldn't buy it.
> 
> It's just NOT RIGHT!!!!!


AGREED! My point completely! |>

A German product should have the majority of the parts from Germany. :-!


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

fachiro1 said:


> No, I would not. Would you buy a Porsche with a body made in China? Even if it was of good quality, I still wouldn't buy it.
> 
> It's just NOT RIGHT!!!!!


I hate to disappoint you but I visited the Stuttgart Porsche factory twice in last couple of years and indeed some of the engines and parts are manufactured and shipped from China :roll: They were assembled and tested in the extended part of factory where only the engines are tested.

We are living in a global economy. Leaving our emotions aside, sometimes efficiencies are acheived with outsourcing the parts to manufactured elsewhere.

Cheers,
Bhanu


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

Like Mercedes and BMW building their cars in North America and having Japanese electronic components???


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

I don't think so. An engine for a Porsche shipped in from China? No way, would never believe that. I would like to see documentation, where and anywhere, that Porsche engines are shipped in from China. 


We do live in a global economy, and I agree, for certan things, such as my Sony Vaio, my refrigerator, and my TV, yeah, ok, made in China, but for luxury items that are high dollar, where I would expect the highest quality, I mean, that's why I'm paying the biug bucks, I don't want to buy something that is made based on using what is considered cheaper labor, etc. etc....

This is just my opinion, and may or may not be shared by others, but that is okay.


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

You should really read up on all it takes for a watch to be considered Swiss made, or German made. I was shocked how easy it is. It's to the point that it's very difficult to know where the case is coming from or parts of the movement for that matter.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

Hi fachiro1,

I would highly recommend the Porsche factory tour in Zuffenhausen. The tour guide was very open about the parts produced in various countries but quality controlled and hand assembled in the factory. There were hardly any machines for automated tasks. In the engine factory, parts had recently arrived from China.

Just because the parts are from other countries does not mean they are inferior and Porsche does not deserver a high price tag. Porsche's quality like German watch manufacturers is exceptional.

We are getting OT, but it is just a fact of life that Porsche (like other companies) has suppliers from China (engine), Japan (transmission), Latvia, Singapore, Finland (Boxter and Cyaman outsourced), USA (Bose stereo), Canada (for 911 body)......
If you google Porsche supplier award, and suppliers you will find the information. Please PM me if you need links.

Porsche also now shares parts with Audi Q5 for upcoming small SUV. Audi Q5 will be built in Chiina.

Cheers,
Bhanu


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Wow, I guess I will sell my CaymanS now!

JK.

I guess the world just got smaller..................

Porsche engines made in China. who would have ever thought that.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Actually, it's very simple for me. If one day, Jorg Announce that his watches were made in China, I simply would not purchase anymore watches from him.

I am a big fan of Panerais, and I'm aware of the knock offs and fakes out there, and a lot of them are made in Asia. It's the same thing. If I discovered one day that Panerai had their cases made in China, I would not purchase them anymore. Imagine if it were true that the cases were made in the same factories as those homages and fakes? Would you feel happy about that?

I've read about the guidelines and finelines, but if it says Made in Germany, or Made in Switzerland, then I expect the watch to at least follow the guidelines and be assembled in those repectice countries.

Stowa watches have cases manufactured by Fricker, of Germany. Unless, I've read the posts wrong, that is fact. I'm happy about that. Btu I'm not happy that my Porsche's engine, according to Hotnerd, is made in China. If that's the case, then I'm not happy at all.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

Hi fachiro,

Please don't misunderstand me  I am talking about SOME (not all) parts made outside of Germany (except Finland for manufacturing of two models). Parts are still assembled in Germany with extream care and quality control. Infact a lot of Porsche parts are manufactured in Germany.

So to compare this to Stowa, if Stowa had some parts in the watch from outside of Germany (Swiss engine already ;-)), but quality tested and hand made the watch, why wouldn't I buy it?

I think misconception comes from the statement that high quality parts made in Asia are made in the same factory as the fake ones......sorry not true. Citizen and Seiko watches are not made in the same factory as fake Panerai, Rolex, etc.

This discussion can go on for ever.....'nuff said.

Cheers,
Bhanu


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

+1 hotnerd, anyone with an understanding of how to run a modern CNC machine and the proper stainless (quality) blank can machine a watch case. The finishing is the harder part, the Devil is always in the details. So let's say that a company not necessarily Stowa but any watch company can purchase the quality blank from a Chinese source, then finish it at their facility and do the final assembly, make a quality product and realise a significant savings that helps keep their product more affordable. Why shouldn't they?


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Because, like many luxury items, there is the necessity for a step beyond that of just economics. this is of course all my own opinion. It's an aesthetic kind of thing. It doesn't really matter what country it is. I mean, I myself am Chinese. To me, it also applies to specific things. 

It's like our discussion regarding the Laco watch. I don't see a lot of people jumping at painted blue hands from China fro their watch. I see a majority of the people wanting to pay the premium for the flame-blued swiss hands, so for some,it is not just about the economics. 

Stow is unique in that jorg's watches are not priced exorbitantly so we can enjoy owning a quality watch at a reasonable price. This is for watch styles ranging from divers, to dress, pilots, etc...

At the end of the day, I would prefer that the Stowa's cases are made in Germany by a reputable company. It adds to the company. It is value added to the product. It does matter.


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

we will agree to disagree I have no prejudice as far as origin of the product as long as the quality is identical. I have several watches of very good quality that I know the case blanks were sourced in Asia (Hong Kong I believe). These pieces still followed all guidelines to be called Swiss Made, because thier movements and assembly, finishing were in Switzerland. Their quality is very very good. I don't think that their case blanks being machined in China make them inferior.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

usc1 said:


> Would you guys still buy a Stowa watch if the parts were being manufactured in Asia? :think:
> 
> Just curious.


No, absolutely. :rodekaart
I will not buy any watch, either Stowa or any other brand. And quality would be a serious issue, if not continuously overviewed by the watchmaker.


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## BKM (Dec 17, 2006)

caesarmascetti said:


> we will agree to disagree I have no prejudice as far as origin of the product as long as the quality is identical. I have several watches of very good quality that I know the case blanks were sourced in Asia (Hong Kong I believe). These pieces still followed all guidelines to be called Swiss Made, because thier movements and assembly, finishing were in Switzerland. Their quality is very very good. I don't think that their case blanks being machined in China make them inferior.


On point and well said. It is for me, after all, a question of quality - not country of origin. I have the Enzo sub-hatch, case work in Asia, a remarkable piece for its quality and value. My ownership of 2 Stowas (the Marine auto and the Seatime) yields the same gratitude for the quality respective of the craft. I do not boast of the country from which they came; instead, I take pride in the the watches themselves and I am grateful to the craftsmen that made them. Bryan


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Okay, so If FP Journe, VC, or Ap oneday announced that their watches were all made in China, would you still buy one for $50,000?

No


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

I even wouldn't buy such a watch if it was handmade by swiss virgins in 9.000 ft altitude.

But, I don't care who has drilled a case if the watch in all is nearly perfect.
And STOWA watches *are* nearly perfect because of their QC and handmade finish in Pforzheim,:roll:

Volker


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

fachiro1 said:


> No, I would not. Would you buy a Porsche with a body made in China? Even if it was of good quality, I still wouldn't buy it.
> 
> It's just NOT RIGHT!!!!!


How about a Porsche with a body made in Slovakia? I would buy it, in fact I drive the Cayenne's cousin, the VW Touareg and it is absolutely amazing. http://visitslovakia.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/made-in-slovakia/

I judge a product by how it looks and performs, not where it is made. I have watches with asian cases, and german cases. I happen to LOVE my Stowa PD, but more because of the details in design and function, and the fact that the case is perfect only solidifies my enjoyment.

I also love my Doxa's ;-)


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

To each his own. I judge a product by it's looks, performance, where it's made, and who makes it. This is all about personal preference. How about if oneday, Jorg announced that his watches had cases made in china, and that he was going to start using chinese copies of eta movments, and the prices were were going to be the same or increase, would you still buy them? Probably not. Why? because DNA matters. Because where the compnents are made does matter. Remember, we are talking about Stowa watches. Would you rather that jorg has his cases made by Fricker? Or some mass produced factory in China?

Most companies have their manufacturing done outside to cut costs to increase profits. That's fine and dandy for them, but like I said, for certain luxury items, I would much rather prefer that things were done in-house, or closer to home. I would rather pay the premium because I can afford it and I take pride in knowing that the watch was made without all the cost cutting because it is a brand that sits a bit higher than some mass produced one.

This discussion can go on forever, and it is interesting to read everyone's opinions, but the question was asked, specifically of Jorg's watches and their case origin. I for one and very happy to know that the cases are made by Fricker, and not some chinese mass produced company, the name of which is unknown.


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## Krnbk2 (May 13, 2008)

I find the "Swiss/German made" arrogance on this thread to be overwhelming. Its hard to believe you don't think that any factory outside of Germany and Switzerland could produce a quality case.


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

Chinese movements are a different story all together and not relevent in this discussion, as we all know they do not funcion as well as ETA or swiss mov'ts. We are talking about a case, a chunk of steel that has been milled into a shape.

I appreciate all points of view. Now ask yourself this, just for discussn sake... what if Fricker, for efficiency reasons, had their blanks cut in asia, and then did the finishing work in-house. It would still say Fricker on the case. How would that change your opinion? What if the raw steel was chinese. Where do you draw the line?

I can't see any difference in quality between my Enzo case, my Doxas, or my PD. All 3 would rate as perfect to my untrained eye. They hold the movement securely, look nice, are supremely water tight, and have first rate surface finishing. The price I paid for each is justified IMHO.

Now, yes I do think that Jorg could charge more for the PD simply because it is a combination of design, fit, finish and quality that is in my opinion as close to the perfect Dive watch as I have ever seen. Mission accomplished.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2008)

Krnbk2 said:


> I find the "Swiss/German made" arrogance on this thread to be overwhelming. Its hard to believe you don't think that any factory outside of Germany and Switzerland could produce a quality case.


Not a question of arrogance but "Made in Germany" has to fullfill in the requirements of "Made in Germany" otherwise write "Made in Elsewhereland" on dial and caseback. Nobody denies that there are manufactures of quality cases outside of Switzerland and Germany.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

If fricker did that then I wouldn't buy it. Maybe we should ask Jorg why he doesn't use a Chinese manufactured case. Maybe you could convince himto start doing that so the watches may be had at a lower price since it doesn't matter to you. 

Maybe all watch manufacturers should have all their parts made in China. china would be the new Switzerland. 

And what is wrong with Chinese movements? I have an old Seagull handwinding movement that is +3/day and has had zero issues. Maybe IWC could start using this movement in the Big Pilot. It doesn't matter right?

Of course it matters.

If it says Made in Germany, then isn't it preferable that as many of the parts, as well as the finishing, assembling, etc...be done in that country of origin, regardless of the written guidelines.


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

Well, it seems that this is degrading, so I'll end my involvement in this discussion.

Besides, I have trouble concentrating on your responses with that video in your signature stealing my attention :-!


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

you do realize that made in Switzerland or made in Germany does not mean that the entire watch is made there. I believe that over 50% of the cost of the watch (not the number of components) has to originate from there. So you could have a watch that by 51% of its cost was made in Switzerland or Germany still be called German or Swiss made. As an example you could have a watch with a Chinese movement that has that movement finished and decorated in Switzerland by a very well paid watchmaker and if that constitutes 51% of the total cost to build of the watch (his labor) it can be called Swiss made.


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## Eric L. (Sep 29, 2006)

caesarmascetti said:


> you do realize that made in Switzerland or made in Germany does not mean that the entire watch is made there. I believe that over 50% of the cost of the watch (not the number of components) has to originate from there. So you could have a watch that by 51% of its cost was made in Switzerland or Germany still be called German or Swiss made. As an example you could have a watch with a Chinese movement that has that movement finished and decorated in Switzerland by a very well paid watchmaker and if that constitutes 51% of the total cost to build of the watch (his labor) it can be called Swiss made.


The situation you describe with the movement is what I believe applies to the the Claro-Semag CL888 movement I think. Apparently it is a modified and decorated Seagul movement? (source Chinese Watch Wiki linked on that forum)

As for the cost of the watch - I think "Swiss Made" can be printed on the dial if over 50% of the cost of components *and* assembly of the watch can be attributed to Switzerland. I think its both, but perhaps it applies to the parts only. If it is the latter, the parts can be of completely foreign origin and still qualify for the designation.


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

thanks Eric, I'm not where I can look into it, I believe you are correct, my point is that as this becomes more and more a global economy the lines become blurred as to a products origin.


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

caesarmascetti said:


> thanks Eric, I'm not where I can look into it, I believe you are correct, my point is that as this becomes more and more a global economy the lines become blurred as to a products origin.


This is being discussed on the Dive forum right now... here is a link to the post that sums up the "Swiss Made' issue.

This is quite off topic of the original posters question.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1319753#poststop


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

You go think about it. No need to make juvenile statement like that. This is all about personal preference and opinion.

If you want to find out about it, go and do a search.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

*Question to Jorg: where are the Stowa cases made?*

Dear Jorg,

Have enjoyed one and a few of your watches for several years now. Have always admired the workmanship, finishing, and your A+ customer service. It has been revealed in the past and in general knowledge that several ofthe Stowa watches (prodiver, marine auto) have cases made by Fricker of Germany. Are any of the Stowa cases made in China or any other non-European manufacturer?

If this is some trade secret, then I can understand you not wanting to reveal the information, but if not, please respond.

Thank You


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## ghettochild (Sep 14, 2008)

*Re: Question to Jorg: where are the Stowa cases made?*

nvm.


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## Zarith (Nov 5, 2007)

caesarmascetti said:


> you do realize that made in Switzerland or made in Germany does not mean that the entire watch is made there. I believe that over 50% of the cost of the watch (not the number of components) has to originate from there. So you could have a watch that by 51% of its cost was made in Switzerland or Germany still be called German or Swiss made. As an example you could have a watch with a Chinese movement that has that movement finished and decorated in Switzerland by a very well paid watchmaker and if that constitutes 51% of the total cost to build of the watch (his labor) it can be called Swiss made.


I don't understand why you guys are always speculating about these issues, while everything is clearly explained at the source: the Swiss Watch Federation (Fédération de L'Industrie Horlogère Suisse).

http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php

To be allowed to use the "SWISS MADE" label a watch must have a Swiss movement. This is mandatory. A "SWISS MOVEMENT" must be assembled and inspected in Switzerland and must be made of at least 50% Swiss components (without taking into account the cost of assembly). That excludes, de facto, a movement made in China.

Your watch_ "with a Chinese movement that has that movement finished and decorated in Switzerland by a very well paid watchmaker and if that constitutes 51% of the total cost to build of the watch (his labor) it can be called Swiss made_" couldn't be called "Swiss Made" at all.

You're mixing everything.

Finishing and decorating a Chinese movement is not enough to transform it into a Swiss movement. 51% labor cost is not relevant for the movement. It must be at least 50% Swiss components.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2008)

Zarith said:


> Your watch_ "with a Chinese movement that has that movement finished and decorated in Switzerland by a very well paid watchmaker and if that constitutes 51% of the total cost to build of the watch (his labor) it can be called Swiss made_" couldn't be called "Swiss Made" at all.
> 
> You're mixing everything.
> 
> Finishing and decorating a Chinese movement is not enough to transform it into a Swiss movement. 51% labor cost is not relevant for the movement. It must be at least 50% Swiss components.


Sorry but there are some clear examples to show that you are wrong.

The following is quoted from 'Isthmus', Moderator here at Watchuseek:

"Claro-Semag is Fossil's Switzerland based in-house mechanical movement 'manufacturer'. They produce a movement called the CL-888 which is used in Fossil's Zodiac Oceanaire divers, several other Fossils and is also sold to other brands. The watches are solid and most have reported nice solid performance from their movements. 
However a few eagle eyed tinkerers have also reported that the movement is the same movement as the Chinese Tianjin ST16. Now Tianjin Sea-Gull is about the most respected Chinese brand at the moment... this particular movement does a good job of integrating some of the better ideas of several movements out there. 
The thing is that the CL-888 only differs from the ST16 in its finishing. Since most likely that finishing is performed in Switzerland, by someone getting paid swiss wages, it is quite likely that that is what pushes the value of the Swiss part of the watch past the magic 50% mark. The end result is that Fossil is able to use a Chinese movement in a (very nice) watch and legally call it Swiss. I have a feeling that much of the case work is probably achieved in similar fashion, thus allowing them to write Swiss Made on the dial".

And here´s another way to make a chinese movement (Seagull) swiss made (my post, German Watches Forum):

"Continiously investigation lead to the following information:

The Movement of the Askania Quadriga 2007 is a movement made by Eurosina, a Basel located firm. It was said that Askania modified this movement and it finally became the Askania 2901. HAHAHA

Further request confirmed that Eurosina is located at Basel and registered at the Chamber of Commerce under CH-270.3.013.674-3. Eurosina was founded on 28.12.2005.

Most members of the board are from China and/or Hongkong.

And their web site ? Wanna know ?
Here we go: www.sea-gull.eu

Eurosina Ltd. is a trade company engaged in the sales and services of wristwatches and movements. The company is the european agent of Tianjin Seagull Watch (Group) Co., Ltd., Dalian Watch Co., Ltd., and Yantai Watch Co., Ltd.


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## powermaxi2000 (May 2, 2007)

Take the conflict Nomos vs Mühle as an example that courts and lawyers are needed to resolve (?) similar issues. What is value? Where is it created? What is needed to define and declare the origin especially this origin is an important selling point. Difficult, very difficult...

Another perspective to look at this is the expectance of an average customer (what most of us in a forum are definitely not!) What is expected when buying a product marked with "Made in..." especially in case it is a luxurious item and it was paid a lot for it?

To make long things short:
Regarding the discussion here about the Stowa cases, all I can say without any doubt is that there are models in the Stowa collection where the repeatedly request for information regarding the origin of the case has not been clarified.... :think: ...and I doubt it will...


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

Thanks Mike, I thought I had a basic understanding of the situation, again in this day and age of globalization it is very difficult to determine country of origin in general.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2008)

caesarmascetti said:


> Thanks Mike, I thought I had a basic understanding of the situation, again in this day and age of globalization it is very difficult to determine country of origin in general.


You are absolutely right. When I tried to find out where Tutima get their cases from I got the answer that they are sourced in Switzerland which imho does not say they are "Swiss made". :think:
It became very difficult..............................................


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

I do not necessarily mind an Asian made case in fact I own 3 different watches that use such cases and they are of very good quality, I only expect disclosure of the fact, so I can make a value judgement on what I'm willing to pay for said product.


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## Krnbk2 (May 13, 2008)

stuffler said:


> Not a question of arrogance but "Made in Germany" has to fullfill in the requirements of "Made in Germany" otherwise write "Made in Elsewhereland" on dial and caseback. Nobody denies that there are manufactures of quality cases outside of Switzerland and Germany.


Mike, You completely missed my point. I Understand very well what it means to be "made in xxxxland" that was not my point. My point is that people in this thread seem to think that only a quality product can come out of Switzerland or Germany and that is arrogance.



fachiro1 said:


> You go think about it. No need to make juvenile statement like that. This is all about personal preference and opinion.
> 
> If you want to find out about it, go and do a search.


Juvenile? I assume you are referring to Marks post where he says that this thread has become degrading? if so, I totally agree with *him*. I think everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion but it gets to be much when you say you would simply not own a watch knowing a part is made in china, EVEN if fit, finish, quality, water tightness, etc were equal. I know you are referring to to higher end watches regarding this discussion and I can see your point of view regarding quality parts, for quality watches for quality prices. I think your point gets lost though, when you make comments like "I simply wouldnt own it if it was made in china". Its your opinon, sure, but your "internet tone" would suggest you have a problem with anything coming out of china... and that I can see as degrading.

Like you said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion:-!


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

You assume wrong. the posts are out of order. that was addressed to a poster who it seems, the post has been deleted or edited. It is only address to that individual, not Mike. 

Now, before you go and start insulting people, calling them arrogant, where did I say, anywhere, that the Chinese made inferior products?

Internet tone? Is that some kind of new psychiatric cyber term? 

Dude, I'm Chinese. No arrogance here.

Put it this way. If I spend my hard earned money on something, it's my choice, is it not? I want to spend my money on something that "I" feel is of good quality, not what someone else thinks. I said I would prefer that somethings are a certain way. If I don't have to, I would rather not purchase something that was produced in a mass-manufacturing factory. I'd rather it be produced in a smaller shop, where quite possiblely, there is more attention to detail. That may be the case with these Chinese factories, or factories from other countries, but a company like Fricker, who has a well known and good reputation, is something that I like. That is all. 

Manufacturers go to asia for the sole purpose of cutting cost to increase profits. If this allows the end user to enjoy a product at a reduced cost, then that is good.

Maybe it is just Stowa, but I have a high regard for Stowa and Jorg's watches. To me, they give me the feeling of being mid to higher end, without the high cost, without cutting corners, at least in terms of models know to have the Fricker cases. They are superb watches.

this is all a matter of caring or not caring about something. I care where the cases are made; maybe you don't, becuase to you, if it is high quality, at least to your standards, then that is fine. I can respect that. But you don't have to call me or anyone else arrogant becuase I have a different opinon than you.

Put it this way, I won't buy a Stowa, Omega, rolex, AP, VC, GO, or any other mid to high-end brand, spending that kind of money, several thousands of dollars on something that gives me the feeling that there was cost cutting and out sourcing. that's just me.

Damn, I own a few Seikos, an Ocean 7, a Seagull and even a homage watch with the chinese movement, but I didn't spend 5000.00 and above on these.

Maybe this thread should be locked, it really can go on forever until the atomic clock wears out.


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

You make perfectly good sense fachiro and I agree with you.
Unfortunately there is far too little transparency in the watch industry.


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## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

pointless.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Okay, so please.................I'd really like to know.

Does my 2008 Cayman S have an engine with parts made in China? Does it have an engine made in China?

It sounds ridicuous, but that was what was stated above.


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## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

people will say whatever comes into there heads about where parts are sourced for watches and for cars.


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## gtenney (May 2, 2008)

I once read an article about the owner of Brooks Brothers and how they make their neck ties in the USA. He said something like, "If the customer doesn't care about the price, then the retailer shouldn't care about the cost." I love how stowa strives to make a superior quality product at an affordable price, but if they feel like they are still delivering a high quality product, but they can do it at a cheaper price than I do not have anything against that. 
Someone who buys a watch like a Patek Philippe really is not buying that watch to get an affordable high quality watch. So in that case I think a company like Patek should take every measure to give a good watch without regard (relatively) to the cost of making it. 
Since we expect a quality watch WITH a good price, I don't think that Stowa is obligated to not factor in ways to still provide that quality watch, while keeping production costs lower.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Krnbk2 (May 13, 2008)

fachiro1 said:


> You assume wrong. the posts are out of order. that was addressed to a poster who it seems, the post has been deleted or edited. It is only address to that individual, not Mike.


Perfectly fine, I must have missed the post you were referring to :-!



> Now, before you go and start insulting people, calling them arrogant, where did I say, anywhere, that the Chinese made inferior products?
> 
> Internet tone? Is that some kind of new psychiatric cyber term?
> 
> Dude, I'm Chinese. No arrogance here.


 Relax brother, I am entitled to my opinion as well aren't I? I mean isn't that the whole point of your long drawn out posts... that everyone is entitled to their individual opinion? I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion but I'm only following your lead in thinking that I am entitled to one just like you.



> Put it this way. If I spend my hard earned money on something, it's my choice, is it not? I want to spend my money on something that "I" feel is of good quality, not what someone else thinks. I said I would prefer that somethings are a certain way. If I don't have to, I would rather not purchase something that was produced in a mass-manufacturing factory. I'd rather it be produced in a smaller shop, where quite possiblely, there is more attention to detail. That may be the case with these Chinese factories, or factories from other countries, but a company like Fricker, who has a well known and good reputation, is something that I like. That is all.


 That is perfectly acceptable



> Manufacturers go to asia for the sole purpose of cutting cost to increase profits. If this allows the end user to enjoy a product at a reduced cost, then that is good.


 I can not agree with this 100%. Seeing that I have tried dealing with Fricker before it is difficult for a little guy like myself to get involved with a "small company" like Fricker when they require initial buy-in's of 100+ cases or more. I still want to produce a higher end product but might source my case manufacturing to an asian facility willing to work with me on minimums that I can realistically do.



> this is all a matter of caring or not caring about something. I care where the cases are made; maybe you don't, becuase to you, if it is high quality, at least to your standards, then that is fine. I can respect that. But you don't have to call me or anyone else arrogant because I have a different opinon than you.


I don't get it... are Asian cases held to different standards than German cases? I mean isn't a "standard" used to set the bar for various manufacturers work? Like I said earlier, if the Asian made case has the same fit, finish, quality, water resistance that the German made case why is it held to a different or lower standard? 


> Maybe this thread should be locked, it really can go on forever until the atomic clock wears out.


I enjoy the different points of view, sure we have gone a little off topic but its nice to see others opinions on these subjects. I say, let the opinions keep coming |>


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2008)

Krnbk2 said:


> Mike, You completely missed my point. I Understand very well what it means to be "made in xxxxland" that was not my point. My point is that people in this thread seem to think that only a quality product can come out of Switzerland or Germany and that is arrogance.


Isn´t it arrogant too to cavil about the arrogance of other people. Sometimes the tone makes the music (German Saying). Think about.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

o|I love this thread...:-!


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## aliasrichmond (Dec 9, 2007)

Its often bandied about that 80% of so-called Swiss watches actually have asian made cases, a supposed open secret in the trade, backed up I believe by import figures from China by Swiss customs. I have watches from the 60's that have "Hong Kong" on the case, so its hardly a new phenonomen, so I cant see why theres always a shock-horror reaction about it...


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## Krnbk2 (May 13, 2008)

stuffler said:


> Isn´t it arrogant too to cavil about the arrogance of other people. Sometimes the tone makes the music (German Saying). Think about.


You almost had me stumped on cavil but thankfully I have access to the interweb and was able to look the word up. :-d

Its unfortunate that you think I am being trivial but I think my questions are valid. To each his own |>


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2008)

Krnbk2 said:


> You almost had me stumped on cavil but thankfully I have access to the interweb and was able to look the word up. :-d
> 
> Its unfortunate that you think I am being trivial but I think my questions are valid. To each his own |>


Well, I decided to come back once more: Your questions are valid, the tone waa wrong. Simple as that.


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

Surly it is a QC issue, if the original company source components from China that are up to their own standards, what difference does it make if they keep within the letter of the law concerning COSC? All watch manufacturers and for that matter any manufacturer of any product are in business to make a profit, if their production costs are lowered without any loss in quality it makes financial sense to take that route.

I don't know of any Swiss or German watch manufacturer that uses Chinese parts or would confirm that fact, but would hazard a guess that it is a lot more than would be expected, would it bother me? don't suppose it would, the watch companies know that their reputation and thus survival depends on the quality of the watches they produce.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

I guess I'll state it again. for me, personally, I would prefer that all componenets of a watch be made in house, as many as possible. To me there is something more aesthetic, emotional, and something that gives me more of a sense of pride-of-ownership if these criteria are met. I understand that in this day and age, things things are becoming more rare, but when a company I like still adheres or tries to keep things close to home, I like that. To me, it adds to the product.

Again, I have no doubt that the Chinese factories can make something of quality. Hell, probably 90% of the things in my home, TV's computers, kid's toys; they're probably made there. That's what makes those brands that don't do the out-sourcing, or those that use the specialty companies more attractive to me. 

In the end, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot in terms of the quality of the watch; but to me it does. It's more aesthetics than anything else. It doesn't matter if it is China or Mexico, or any other country. But when companies like Stowa or Sinn use a company like Fricker or SUG, I think that adds some intrinsic and aesthetic value to the watch "FOR ME!"

When UTS or Damasko manufacture their own case, it adds something to the pride of ownership of the watch for me, knowing that someone close to home in the company, even the owner of the company had a hand in making the part. this is part of why I'm willing to dish out that kind of money for a watch. These small things add something special to the watch.

People buy things like watches for many different reasons. For some of us they are just a tool for keeping time. they may purchase an expesive "tool" watch, like a sinn U1, or a Casio G-shock. But the stories behind why they chose these watches may be completely different.

For me, I like different type of watches ranging from my Panerais, which I love for the size, design, history, to the Stowa MO, for the same reasons, and the quality and feelings they give me everytime I put one one or look at it. I'm not ashamed to say I own some cheap watches too, but I like them all for various reasons.

But again, when I spend my hard earned money on something that is inthe thousands of dollars, there are several criteria that I'd like met, before I throw out the cash.


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

I can hear where you are coming from, but here is the quandary, would you turn the watch down that had some parts made in China that were actually better than the original, or is it a complete mistrust that the Chinese can produce quality?

Here is another question, one watch is made in house completely with a standard movement, another watch is made in house, however because of the cost of parts, some are sourced from China but are subjected to strict QC inspections, because the cost is cheaper a better grade movement is put in the second watch, both watches cost the same, which watch do you choose?


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

This is fun!!!!

First off, I never said anything about mistrusting anything from China. I would at this point, mistrust toxic painted toys and baby formula, but I never said anything about mistrust. Like I said, I am aware of the many things around the house hold that are maid in china, like my HP computer, printers, refrigorator, microwave, etc...that's fine.

Regarding watches, specifically, it is a brand thing. There are certain brands of watches that have a history, that I would have a problem with, not really a problem, but the feeling just wouldn't be the same.

Ocean7 and Enzo don't hide the fact that they source parts from China. That's fine with me. there are fine watches enjoyed by their owners, myself included. But they are not Stowa, not Panerai, not IWC, not GO, Not FP Journe, not AP, or other brands of watches that I enjoy. To me it's about the brand and the cost of the watch. For higher end watches that I am willing to dish otu the money for, I would rather that they didn't take the cost cutting route. Like I said before. If I pay 8000.00 plus for a GO, it better not have a Chinese case! Is that so hard to understand?" If I buy a 15,000 IWC Big Pilot, it better not have a Chinese case!


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

Must admit that I have cut down on my daily intake of Chinese baby milk, tis fun I agree, got to say, if I was spending high end money on a watch, I would also want it to be Swiss made, my observations in my last post were also aimed at myself, taking it down to the lowest level, two boxes each containing a watch, one box is labeled "100% Swiss made", the other labeled "With Chinese parts", both the same price, which box would I choose, watch unseen? Yep, you guessed correctly.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Dave I said:


> I can hear where you are coming from, but here is the quandary, would you turn the watch down that had some parts made in China that were actually better than the original, or is it a complete mistrust that the Chinese can produce quality?
> 
> Here is another question, one watch is made in house completely with a standard movement, another watch is made in house, however because of the cost of parts, some are sourced from China but are subjected to strict QC inspections, because the cost is cheaper a better grade movement is put in the second watch, both watches cost the same, which watch do you choose?


I would buy "100% Swiss made" surely, no matter any difference in pricing.
When I buy and wear a watch, something that will be with me for a long time, I want something that could remind me my tradition, my culture, my skills and all these attidudes have to be referred to the culture where I'm coming from, not to myself.
250 years and more of watchmaking tradition cannot be cancelled by a poor copy of a product of the culture of my home people, of my home land.
Even the best Asian product cannot do this, for this I do not even consider them as a possible choice for me, because are not part of my tradition. For this I would not buy any watch containing parts that are not designed and sourced in my home culture, and I'm aware of this now more than ever that I spend half of my time every year in China to overview and control the quality of the production of the company I work for, otherwise it would be a mess if not controlled.
No way, tradition and experience are a plus in terms of quality of the products. It is impossible to manufacture in China a product of the same quality you can get in Switzerland or Germany or somewhere else in Europe, unless to set up a strict quality control system based on procedures that are settled and overviewed by westerns.
Not my 2 cents opinions, but 3 years of facts due to daily experience with Far East manufacturing issues.
I hope I can be helpful to the thread.


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

rouge said:


> I would buy "100% Swiss made" surely, no matter any difference in pricing.
> When I buy and wear a watch, something that will be with me for a long time, I want something that could remind me my tradition, my culture, my skills and all these attidudes have to be referred to the culture where I'm coming from, not to myself.
> 250 years and more of watchmaking tradition cannot be cancelled by a poor copy of a product of the culture of my home people, of my home land.
> Even the best Asian product cannot do this, for this I do not even consider them as a possible choice for me, because are not part of my tradition. For this I would not buy any watch containing parts that are not designed and sourced in my home culture, and I'm aware of this now more than ever that* I spend half of my time every year in China to overview and control the quality of the production of the company I work for*, otherwise it would be a mess if not controlled.
> ...


The question begging to be asked then, are the products that you overview and control are as good as, better or worse, than the same product made elsewhere rather than China?


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Dave I said:


> The question begging to be asked then, are the products that you overview and control are as good as, better or worse, than the same product made elsewhere rather than China?


Yes, same products, same components (many of them sourced from my home country), same quality control procedures performed by more people, due to lower labour cost.
But:
1. None of these product could be have designed and produced here in China, if not already introduced by my company, due to the total lacks of skills in innovation and design of local entrepreneurs and technicians;
2. As above, none of these products could be produced with a reasonable quality grade if not overviewed by the European-based crew;
3. The final cost is not so cheap as many people could imagine, but only 30% less than the corresponding manufacturing in Europe;
4. The trained local people have no any idea how to carry out by themselves any emergency in term of quality, so if they would have been left alone the quality level would reach soon unacceptable levels or, at least, it would be unstable.

All this happens because of the missing tradition and skills in manufacturing, as it happens now to local manufacturers that had grown up by copying our products trying to compete with us.
This is unacceptable in a mass product, it is worse for a luxury product, as a mechanical wristwatch is, in term of image and perceived quality for customers.
No, I would not buy any mechanical wristwatch embedding components sourced from any asian country, Japan included.
A mechanical wristwatch is not only an instrument for timing, it speaks of and to the wearer and it could be unnecessary to own and wear it, but we all are human....


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

Ugo, would you buy the product made by your company in China at a lower price or would you buy the same product made in Europe for a higher price?


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## PVDaddict (Sep 26, 2008)

usc1 said:


> Would you guys still buy a Stowa watch if the parts were being manufactured in Asia? :think:
> 
> Just curious.


 Yes! It would make the Stowa watch even more affordable!


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Dave I said:


> Ugo, would you buy the product made by your company in China at a lower price or would you buy the same product made in Europe for a higher price?


I would buy the product made in China, as they are electro-mechanical components for household appliances. 
If my company would produce components for watches, I would not buy any watch embedding our components produced in China, as a mechanical watch is not a merely instrument for measuring time but it is a luxury item that gives to the owner feelings of fulfilment that a cheap quartz watch could not ever give, even it this would probably be more accurate.
I believe that everybody would buy a car that has some components produced in China in (as probably many are :roll but I believe as well that nobody would accept to buy a Ferrari or an Aston Martin knowing that some of the components of these cars are produced in China.
The mark-up cost is the cost of human dreams and nobody can live without them. ;-)


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

What a great answer Ugo, agreed, thank you.:-!


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

|> |> |> ;-)


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## inlanding (Feb 20, 2008)

Here's a good one for the group - - -

Knowing that you have all sort of luxury items "made in xyz", if you later found out many of the components were made elsewhere, would the extreme purist in you force you to sell them thinking you'd be duped?


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## Dave I (May 9, 2008)

Another good question, short answer from me would be no, but I dont class myself to be in the purist camp.


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

Without a doubt, If, for example, I found out that my Panerai had any parts made in China, I'd immediately sell it. I didn't pay 6 grand for a watch with Chinese parts.


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## aliasrichmond (Dec 9, 2007)

fachiro1 said:


> Without a doubt, If, for example, I found out that my Panerai had any parts made in China, I'd immediately sell it. I didn't pay 6 grand for a watch with Chinese parts.


6 grand....absolutely agree, so heres an interesting question, whats the break point? ..when is it acceptable?...under $500...$1000...$2000?


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## inlanding (Feb 20, 2008)

You appear to be leaning towards the absolutist camp which leaves no room to move and which makes my next question even more interesting - let's have some fun here,,,

What would happen if you now discovered that most of your material items are not purely made and stocked from the one country labeled on the front. What if parts from your Panerai came from Zanzibar of the Republic of Tanzania? Would you sell your six grand watch then at a 50% loss because you thought otherwise, or would you pass along that information to the next buyer, or try to obtain as much resale as you could squeeze out the next unsuspecting buyer by not disclosing the balance wheel was from Zanzibar?


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

I guess I'm going to have to repeat myself again, that is fine, I like this thread...


We are talking about watches, specific brands, not food precessors or toasters.

If this or if that, it doesnt really matter.

Why is this why is that?

Why is a Panerai 6000 bucks but a Casio, seagull or whatever 50 bucks?

The market? collector values, supply demand...etc etc etc, Whatever the reason. Why is a Lexus 50 grand but a Hyundai 15 grand?

Why is a Dell 500 dollars, a Vaio 2000 dollars, and Alienware 5000 dollars?

Am I from the absolutist camp?

Absolutely!

when 
I spend my hard earned money, I expect certain things. I don't like to squander. I like things a certain way and things matter to me. Is that wrong? Why is it so wrong to have certain demands on products, espcially luxury items.

There was a time that there were, still are, watches that are help in high regard in terms of workmanship, blah blah blah, Luckily , Stowa still has these traditions at its roots. 

Panerai, a brand that I like a lot, when you hold a real one in one hand, you hold a fkae in anther, there is a whole world of difference in terms of quality and workmanship. You can feel it.

Regarding Tanzania.I really don't care to comment. that is just silly.


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## inlanding (Feb 20, 2008)

You are making Giovanni P and Dino Zei very proud. I thought mentioning Zanzibar as a possible source for balance wheels might get you to laugh. ;-)

Still looking forward to receiving the delivery notice regarding the FOLE...

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program...:-!


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Great thread! You discuss about watchcomponents made in certain Countries. OK. But what about the actual machinery making the bits? Or the workers? The last time I picked up a car in Germany, (Porsche in Stuttgart), a lot of the workforce were definitevly NOT German!
But does it really matter? Why can't the QC be as good in, say, North Korea as in Sweden? 
As noted before, the Cayenne/Tuareg body is made in Bratislava, a lot of the mechanicals for the VW in Mlada Boleslav in Czech Republic, a lot of the Bosch electrics also in Czech Republic
Audi TT in Gyor in Hugary, etc etc
The above- Made in Germany???
I believe it is the design and accepted tolerances that are the most important!
As said, great thread!!

Freddie Mercury (lead singer in Queen) was Made in Zanzibar! Good product!


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## inlanding (Feb 20, 2008)

Ha! I tried to stay out of it, but I couldn't. I brought up Zanzibar because it seem like a place I'd like to visit (and it's not often mentioned at all) after I spend time visiting my friends in Morocco then taking a week and going nuts in Ibiza, more affectionately known as Eivissa.

Glen


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## fachiro1 (Jan 24, 2007)

lol!


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## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

A tad bit off topic, but the porsche deal, bmw, mercedes. some myth should be dismissed here. I deal with these guys. at least for the past 22 years in racing, lately in design of tc and fbw systems. porsche does use some engine parts from china. but these parts have to be made to porches specs and are magnafluxed before shipment. also porsche has agents in those facilities to check production. however, the engines main components are made by porsche. hotnerd, no idea where you got your information or what facility you were in but porsche has a number of facilities where they build engines. you may have not gotten a tour of this facility as its closed to the public as is every manufacturer who produces for f1, ama, moto gp gts. I spent a month at the engine facility while developement was being finalised for harley Davidson on a new porsche derived engine for there ama series bike. another myth on electronic control systems. not chinese, never has been, will never happen and for bmw, mercedes, porsche, look no further than seimans and etas auto divisions. period, no opinions here, just facts. go to any japanese bike manufacturer and look at the components list. they use a number of italian companies, including brembo for some of there systems including fi systems and eta for micro stepper motors for fly by wire systems.

this isn't watches where most information is hidden. transportation vehicles all must meet certain safety standards. knowing where every part is made, the time it was made, the batch it was in, chemicals used including there own batch numbers are public record and must meet international law.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

You are absolutely right that tour to the main factory is closed and you MUST know someone to actually get a tour. I went to tour the main factory with a dear friend in 2005 and again this year.

So respectfully, please do not claim that "where I got my information" when I visited there and got it first hand!!!!

Secondly, ofcourse these parts are made for Porsche under the highest controlled environment but NONETHELESS in China and several other countries (as mentioned).

The original point of the post was that parts ARE manufactured outside of Germany and in China.

Welcome to the reality!

Jeez.....


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## Jörg Schauer (May 2, 2005)

Hello everybody,

the last weeks have been realy busy and the next 2-3 months will the same.
My new bulding costs me much more time than i ever supposed.
But it is worth the work .-) and we look all forward to move to this new production, office and museum place.

Today it is a national free day and this gives me a little time to work in silence and to write something here.

*Today i have launched this text to my frequently ask questions area in all shops:* .-)

Best regards

Jörg Schauer

*Where are STOWA watches and components are made ?*

Sometimes there are discussions about the "Country of Origin" of STOWA watches and other watchbrands.
We at STOWA want to be open as always.

Already in the year 2007 an article in the german watchmagazine *ARMBANDUHREN* was published.
(in the reason of the 80th. Anniversary of the STOWA Brand)
It was the result of a interview Jörg Schauer gave to Armbanduhren.

Martin Häussermann(Journalist) and Jörg Schauer talked about the marketing and philosophy of STOWA.:

_"Even under Schauer's aegis, these have been turbulent times for Stowa, with a lot of pressure being exerted on prices.The young team in Engelsbrand has managed to release this pressure in two ways: on the one hand, Schauer has been systematically and successfully looking for component manufacturers with a more favourable pricing structure, including those in the Far East, he admits. On the other hand, he emphasised that "80 percent of the value of Stowa watches is created in Europe". The company's marketing policy has been changed as well: from a traditional brand to direct sales. Schauer has been selling Stowa almost exclusively on-line for almost three years now (www.stowa.com) or directly from his workshop. Stowa watches have become clearly cheaper as a result of more favourable purchasing terms and the elimination of dealer profit margins."
_


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## Sandy (Oct 16, 2006)

OK...
So, where are the cases made...
Germany or Far East?


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## aliasrichmond (Dec 9, 2007)

Sandy said:


> OK...
> So, where are the cases made...
> Germany or Far East?


Stowa are on Frickers reference list so obviously some are made in Germany, but it seems not all.


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## Zoot Allures (Oct 23, 2008)

Hi all, 

Whatever the laws or rules are saying about what percentage of value or craftsmanship will allow a "xxxxland made", considering the few parts in a watch (other than the +-200 parts of the movement), it would be a pity not to reach a 100% "made in xxxland" if it's written on it.
Otherwise, it should be written "Assembled in xxxland".

I feel that Stowa have a good look of what come from Frickers (handcraft, steel quality) but cannot from any other far-eastern factory who recently have proven —Mattel story, this milk story— that they have no scruples and, for sure, actually a European factory could do the same but not too easy not the same impunity, I feel.


So... which Stowa's cases or other major part (other that the swiss movement and the sticks to hold the strap that could be made in Lesotho, Buthan wouldn't hurt) are from Far-East?


I wanted to buy an airmanlike or Flieger Replica from one of the five selected german factory from the time. Since I can't afford a Flieger Original (that anyway contain a swiss movement) nor IWC, Lange or Wempe, I make a step down and ordered the Stowa Flieger no logo.

With such a doubt, I maybe bought any replica at a better price to get something vaguely fliegerisch or a bit germanerisch... even with a chinenese, or a Miota-like or maybe a quartz watch.


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## Monoblock (Sep 8, 2008)

I have to disagree with the statement that the asian watch makers not being able to keep up with Swiss/german in quality or innovation.

Seiko, for example, is currently making some of the finest mechanical time pieces in the world.

Check out some higher end Seikos... they will blow your mind.

I do agree in transparency within the watch world.

If I'm paying top dollar for a Swiss or German brand, I expect "made in Swiss" or "made in Germany" to mean something.

But, having said this, it would not shy me away from a brand just because the case blank is not of German origin.


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## Zoot Allures (Oct 23, 2008)

Monoblock said:


> I have to disagree with the statement that the asian watch makers not being able to keep up with Swiss/german in quality or innovation.


Indeed. You told of Japanese... For the moment when you see the qualify of Chinese cars or bikes... you're afraid of getting in sometimes. They look good from far. You can go for it for a few bucks but you get what you paid for.



> But, having said this, it would not shy me away from a brand just because the case blank is not of German origin.


If it is not a shame to introduce "foreign" parts, let it not be a war secret, stating "japanese steel" with "high" Chinese craftsmanship for example so we really know what we buy.


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## langtoftlad (May 17, 2007)

I think some would be surprised (dismayed) as to where components are sourced for even high end premium products.

All businesses even those in the luxury sector are out to make money.

Unless it was specifically stated that a product was *100% origin* from the country I would always assume that elements or components would outsourced.

Labelled Swiss Made, German Made, Made In England does not give that guarantee even though it might imply it.

Don't expect any manufacturer to specify exactly what percentage is made/assembled locally,

Stowa uses ETA "Swiss" made movements but can be Jorg be certain that all the components, and the materials used to make those components are made in Switzerland? No of course not.

Stowa may well use Fricker cases and that adds a cachet to the Stowa brand but where did the steel come from to make those cases, where do the workers come from. What about the machines used - where are they made, by whom using what materials...

See how daft it all becomes :roll:


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## mmaddux (Dec 3, 2007)

When they say that a certain percentage of "value" is produced in a certain country, what does this mean exactly?

For instance, let's say I have a watch company based in Germany and I buy preassembled watches from China made with extremely cheap labor at 25 Euros each, and then I pay a skilled German 100 Euros per hour to do quality control, and let's say the quality control takes 1/2 hour per watch, thus costing me 50 Euros. So can I now say that 66% of the value of the watch was produced in Germany?

Mike


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## Zoot Allures (Oct 23, 2008)

langtoftlad said:


> Stowa may well use Fricker cases and that adds a cachet to the Stowa brand but where did the steel come from to make those cases, where do the workers come from. What about the machines used - where are they made, by whom using what materials...


As it is well known that some VW engine are Isuzu's and that Bentley is own by VW... that doesn't mean that Bentley's engine are Japanese nor even that Bentley's are piece of crap.

Sure that the steel Fricker uses could be Mital (from everywhere in the world), Swedish or even good ol' Thyssen (own now by I don't even care who).

Actually, the NC milling machine could be as well programmed in Papua New Guinea, in the middle of the Schloßgarten Schwetzingen (Germany) or even in my courtyard. In fact, I don't give a f*** were it was milled and which 12 years old child puts out the ore of the mine in Turaqistan.

But for a made in Germany watch, I'd rather know it in Schwetzingen.

And again, coz' I'm stubborn, that's not a shame in the wonderful globalized world we all live in to tell the truth about a silly thing like a watch as of we're not quibbling about cruise-missiles or the kind of armor protect H.M. Elizabeth's car.


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## Zoot Allures (Oct 23, 2008)

This topic concerns is the casual daily wearer of a brand new watch.

What if someday the late would be considered as vintage?

What if a watchmaker by making this or that go against _the guarantee of origin_ or _quality label_ from its famous watch tradition county... intrinsic question is what represent a _county quality label_, what should it rule: how far does the movement itself, the dial and hands art, the case design and manufacturing come from this very county. 
This was only from a watch-collector point of view...

Admitting that someday, Stowa, Durowe (or other historical local brand) in a few decades became the flags of the Pforzheim art of watchmaking (that all the worst we wish for Jörg's projects), even if Schwartzwälder Kirschtorte will remain far more desirable.

My 2 pennies...


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