# Watchbuys is significantly more expensive than european Sinn dealers... Why?



## tekno (Apr 17, 2010)

Sinnwatches.com has the U1 for $1300 US, and yes I would have to pay some duties but I guarentee I would still save 200 bucks.

So what gives? Do they charge more just because they can? I find that a bit unethical. I found chronomaster.com also, and their prices are even lower.

Of course I can't get them to ship over here but 3-500 dollars difference is alot of money.


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

supply and demand...

the demand is greater in the US & Canada (bigger market) and their supply is probably not more than dealers get in smaller markets...

maybe they require the extra mark-up to stay in business? and they never seem to keep the good sellers in stock very long...


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## CycloneFever (Apr 19, 2007)

The euro has also been falling against the dollar lately. So buying things priced in euros will seem comparatively cheaper than the same thing priced in dollars. Unless the US retailers have been pricing their items down along with the currency exchange. Pretty sure that isn't going to happen.


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## EROKS (Mar 12, 2008)

I noticed the same thing...I'm thinking about giving afew of them a call to see if they will ship to the US


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## Ozy (Aug 10, 2009)

Sinn U1 over here is 2700 aud..

Stop ya whinging! :-!


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## bluee (May 20, 2010)

The European prices already include VAT, while Watchbuys does not. So theoretically, Watchbuys should be cheaper. So if Chronomaster would export minus 17.5 %VAT, watches would be significantly cheaper than Watchbuys. German VAT of 19%, refundable, would mean I would probably only buy a Sinn in Germany.


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## mikeand (Aug 23, 2007)

It's called monopoly pricing power. There is no US competition.


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## EROKS (Mar 12, 2008)

I'm really starting to not like watchbuys.Also, It seems lately their selection of models is very low. Not sure what the reason for that is???


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## aston.db4 (Dec 28, 2007)

Watchbuys has their monopoly. Brands like Stowa and Sinn don't care, because higher prices gives everyone more profits. What irritates me is that Sinn watches can be found elsewhere, but ADs outside the US won't sell to US buyers cause of Watchbuys. 

Another thing you need to consider when purchasing from Watchbuys is that they have POOR to NONE after sales servicing. They have contradictory responses to servicing and like to play the blame. Yet for some strange reason they are VERY fast when you want to buy a watch from them. 

It makes you wonder.....


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

I have no experience dealing with Watchbuys, as I live in a British Overseas Teritory.
But, I think you should be grateful that Watchbuys takes the effort to be a Sinn AD.

If you dislike Watchbuys, maybe somebody can start talking to Sinn in Germany and take over the US market?
But in that case I would like to see a first class after market service, eqvivalent pricing to Germany etc.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Janne said:


> I have no experience dealing with Watchbuys, as I live in a British Overseas Teritory.
> But, I think you should be grateful that Watchbuys takes the effort to be a Sinn AD.
> 
> If you dislike Watchbuys, maybe somebody can start talking to Sinn in Germany and take over the US market?
> But in that case I would like to see a first class after market service, eqvivalent pricing to Germany etc.


Is it difficult to be a Sinn AD? :-s Maybe I'm missing something.

Watchbuys has a monopoly, they can largely charge what they want and without competition their after sale performance suffers. They have no incentive to charge less and be better when they're the only game in town. People have been complaining about them for years. But frankly, I don't blame Watchbuys. They're doing what a business does. I blame Sinn for giving them a monopoly on U.S. sales.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

No, not difficult if you can invest the money in sending a skilled watchmaker to Sinn to be " Sinn qualified".
You need to get a quite large stock of Sinn watches. Etc.


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## EROKS (Mar 12, 2008)

As far as I know Watchbuys has no "Sinn qualified" watchmaker. They handle none of the repairs of any of the Sinn watches they sell. RGM in Pa(total different entity than Watchbuys) handles the service of basic models and many must go back to Germany to be reparied. So I really don't understand your point about sending someone to Sinn to be Sinn qualified. Also, look at the Sinn models Watchbuys has in stock at the moment...not exactly much to pick from.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Ithought RGM was connected to Watchbuys!

I have not checked the stock, as I would not buy from them (wrong area).
But if the stock is low that must mean that they sell. 
If they sell, then the customers are happy with the prices.


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## cjh (May 3, 2010)

Or it could mean that they think the Euro keeps getting weaker and if they keep their prices the same then they can make a higher profit on customer orders by only ordering from Sinn (priced in Euros) when somebody actually orders from them. 

- or perhaps I am a little cynical!


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## Vern (Dec 26, 2006)

Can you walk in to the Sinn factory in Germany and buy a watch? Pricing?

Will Chronomaster in the UK sell to someone in Germany?


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## EROKS (Mar 12, 2008)

RGM makes their own watches. http://rgmwatches.com/ . They happen to service and restore many watch brands. And I have bought from watchbuys(because I have to) SO i have experience with their after the sale service...subpar IMHO. And they never keep many watches in stock. Hvae a look for yourself... www.watchbuys.com


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

EROKS said:


> RGM makes their own watches. http://rgmwatches.com/ . They happen to service and restore many watch brands. And I have bought from watchbuys(because I have to) SO i have experience with their after the sale service...subpar IMHO. And they never keep many watches in stock. Hvae a look for yourself... www.watchbuys.com


RGM is currently the authorized Sinn service center in the US, but many watches still have to go back to Sinn Germany for argon, copper sulphate, oil change, etc... so they still have limited capabilities as pertains to a lot of Sinn watches... they will need to change that ASAP IMO...

Watchbuys does seem to sell out of the hot models quickly, that's why their stock seems low on the best-sellers... obviously, they can get anything you want, but you might have to wait some... and if they're selling out, it means someone is willing to pay the price...

Most foreign Sinn ADs will not ship to the US & Canada under their contractual arrangement with Sinn... I know Chronomaster won't...

I having a feeling if the Euro keeps sinking that Watchbuy's prices will come down, just as they rose when the dollar was falling... but only time will tell :-d

cheers,
Peter


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Vern said:


> Can you walk in to the Sinn factory in Germany and buy a watch? Pricing?
> 
> Will Chronomaster in the UK sell to someone in Germany?


There is a dealer network in Germany and you can also purchase directly from the factory. My German AD has given me discounts on Sinn products in the past but that stopped early last year because of pressure from Sinn. Now there is no advantage in purchasing from one over the other.

I don't think Neil at Chronomaster (or Jura for that matter) can sell Sinns to customers outside their region.


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## EROKS (Mar 12, 2008)

It seems to me Sinn dealers that aren't in the US tend to get the cooler models. We don't see many Limited editions or anything other than the basic models here in the US.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Nor in UK. I believe many LE models are destined for Asia, where Sinn sell very well.


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## DarkOrb (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm currently in Canada. What would everyone recommend as the best method of acquiring a Sinn? Are there any particular European ADs you've had good experiences with?

Thanks!


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## NOLA1 (Apr 14, 2008)

Any chance a European member would be willing to act as a Proxy and ship the watches to us in the U.S.?


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## Supe (Apr 5, 2008)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I don't think Neil at Chronomaster (or Jura for that matter) can sell Sinns to customers outside their region.


Confirmation he won't sell if there is a local AD. When I was looking at buying the U1, I asked Neil and he said he couldn't sell one to me as there is a local Sinn AD.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

NOLA1 said:


> Any chance a European member would be willing to act as a Proxy and ship the watches to us in the U.S.?


I am not sure about the saving in this case.
If a UK person buys the watch, he has to pay the UK VAT. Then you have the cost of insuring and shipping, and the tax in the US.


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## bluee (May 20, 2010)

I found this Finnish website that says they ship out of the EU tax-free. I know nothing about them.

http://www.wanhatwarikset.com/epages/OVK.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=153141


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## Blue bird (Feb 11, 2009)

DarkOrb said:


> I'm currently in Canada. What would everyone recommend as the best method of acquiring a Sinn? Are there any particular European ADs you've had good experiences with?
> 
> Thanks!


There is a Sinn AD in downtown Toronto. The last time I was there was a little while back but the Canadian MSRP's work out to be at or slightly below Watchbuys. I've never bought from them but I know they will wheel and deal a little off the MSRP.


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## miles_louis (Aug 13, 2009)

bluee said:


> I found this Finnish website that says they ship out of the EU tax-free. I know nothing about them.
> 
> http://www.wanhatwarikset.com/epages/OVK.sf/en_GB/?ViewObjectID=153141


Checked them out, in Finland. Email reply

Hey,

Unfortunately our agreement with Sinn watches doesn't allow us to sell these
watches abroad. (for the time being) We're working on getting our agreement
widen to cover the rest of the world also.

Kind regards,

Ilkka Tuominen
Asiakaspalvelu / Wanhat Warikset
Kumitehtaankatu 5
04260 Kerava
http://www.wanhatwarikset.com
puh. 0401708550"


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

miles_louis said:


> Checked them out, in Finland. Email reply
> 
> Hey,
> 
> ...


I'm not real surprised. Why would Sinn grant exclusive distributorships (and why would someone seek to become an AD) if Sinn's not going to protect them and allow dealers from other regions to undercut them? It's just not good business in my book.


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## miles_louis (Aug 13, 2009)

miles_louis said:


> Checked them out, in Finland. Email reply
> 
> Hey,
> 
> ...


Maybe not...... Keep you posted!


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## bluee (May 20, 2010)

Well then, they should put that on their website. I put a watch in a shopping cart, put in destination, and it deleted the VAT for me. Hmmm. Sorry to get anyone's hopes up.


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## mebiuspower (Sep 24, 2009)

Blue bird said:


> There is a Sinn AD in downtown Toronto. The last time I was there was a little while back but the Canadian MSRP's work out to be at or slightly below Watchbuys. I've never bought from them but I know they will wheel and deal a little off the MSRP.


I'm not aware of any other dealer in Canada, Watchbuys is the only North America AD right now AFAIK. If you have the name of this AD I'd be interested to find out if they still carry them which is IMO unlikely.


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## Docrwm (Feb 10, 2006)

It's not just Sinn but the entire AD system that is broken. Unless you just have to have the latest model Used is the way to go. 

That said, what is the policy for a Yank to travel abroard, buy a Sinn in person, get the VAT back and wear the watch home? Any restriction in the AD contract about checking the persons Passport to see if there is an AD closer to them?:roll:


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Docrwm said:


> It's not just Sinn but the entire AD system that is broken. Unless you just have to have the latest model Used is the way to go.
> 
> That said, what is the policy for a Yank to travel abroard, buy a Sinn in person, get the VAT back and wear the watch home? Any restriction in the AD contract about checking the persons Passport to see if there is an AD closer to them?:roll:


None at all. If you show up in their store with cash, cheque or a credit card you'll be walking out with a watch. Of course you'll be expected to claim it on your Customs form when you return to the States but I've never been hit up with Duties before and I've travelled a lot over the years.

YMMV


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## Docrwm (Feb 10, 2006)

CMSgt Bo said:


> None at all. If you show up in their store with cash, cheque or a credit card you'll be walking out with a watch. Of course you'll be expected to claim it on your Customs form when you return to the States but I've never been hit up with Duties before and I've travelled a lot over the years.
> 
> YMMV


Even when I have been hit with US Duty is has been very reasonable. They want to know the # of Jewels, case material, and strap cost. Having a reference for the movement cost can save you a LOT because its a minimal fee for 25 and fewer jewels and that is subtracted (along with the strap cost) from the case and that is the highest % fee.


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## novan3 (Sep 8, 2010)

mebiuspower said:


> I'm not aware of any other dealer in Canada, Watchbuys is the only North America AD right now AFAIK. If you have the name of this AD I'd be interested to find out if they still carry them which is IMO unlikely.


Clearly an old thread but Blue Bird is right, Louis Black in dowtown Toronto is a Sinn AD. I bought my U1 there, they're still an AD and had a few models behind on display a month ago; as well as Richard Mille and other very high-end watches. They can order any Sinn watch from Germany that they don't have in stock.

http://louis-black.com/ Call to inquire what's in stock.

It appears they don't make noise about being an AD because of the agreement WatchBuys has, and honestly, they don't look like they're hurting for business.


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## Mitch339 (Jul 9, 2011)

I think watchbuys prices are extemely reasonnable, and if us Canadians know anybody in the US, we can simply have them ship it there and pick it up ourselves to wear across the border.

A retail store in Canada will both charge in CDN$ and charge sales and provincial tax..


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

I don't think that the fact that people buy from Watchbuys means that buyers are satisfied with the prices. It means that Sinn dealers outside the US are contracted not to ship to US buyers. 

Watchbuys not only offers no after sales service, they won't even send your watch back to Sinn for you or help to steer it through the thickets of German bureaucracy on the owner's behalf. I have a Sinn UX which has an oil-filled case and when the time comes for it to need a new battery, it will have to go back to the factory. I don't mind that..... in fact I would want to send it back rather than have someone else mess about with it..... but I do mind that Watchbuys won't even help get it to the factory without customs formalities, as I'm sure they could as contracted agents for a German company. 

I have to admit that I could be maligning Watchbuys in this respect and they really would be unable to help, but since they aren't even willing to try and blithely say that they don't offer after sales service, that's not how it appears.

This is such a huge contrast with the several Japanese retailers who sell Japanese market watches on line. If you have a problem with one of their watches, you send it back to your seller and he sends it to the factory on your behalf. This is the case whether the watch is under warranty or not. If it is under warranty, you don't even have to pay shipping!


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

No such think as "thickets of Grman bureaucracy". You just FedEx the watch to Sinn in Germany. Simple.
Also, your statement that dealers outside the US are contracted not to ship to US buyers is not entirely true. The contracted AD's can only sell in their contracted areas, it matters not if it is in the US,UK, Finland etc.
The US market for Sinn watches is pretty insignificant compared to trhe Asian one......


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## Mr. Thompson (Jul 23, 2006)

I have always had good service from Watch Buys but I do miss the variety. I would like to buy a U200 for my wife, not available. The UX would be cool but no service in the US yet Higuchi-san will insure my Citizen CTQ57-1025 gets factory service in Japan. While I will continue to purchase from Watch Buys Rob and company would be well advised to look at the global market and adjust their policies accordingly.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

You say that my statement that dealers outside the US are contracted not to sell to US buyers is not entirely true. You go on to say that dealers can only sell in their contracted areas. If their areas are not in the US, are they not therefore forbidden by contract to sell to buyers in the US? I agree that the contract may not specifically exclude US buyers, but isn't the effect the same?
If you're taking issue with the lack of a specific exclusion, ok, you're probably right, but if that's not what you mean, please enlighten me as to wherein I was wrong. Some years ago, I tried to buy a Sinn from a UK dealer for delivery to the US and was refused because of the seller's contract, which certainly led me to believe his contract forbade him from selling to me.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

What I am saying is that is is not a" ban to sell to the US". It is a ban to sell to ANY country outside the contracted area. You make it sound like it is an anti USA conspiracy. It is not!

I personally dislike that policy. I have been buying stuff over the internet for close to 2 decades now. Internationally. I fail to understand why a seller should be forced to be limited to a specific geografical/political area. It is the sellers own choice where he sells to, but IMHO the whole idea with buying over the net is to be able to buy world wide.

My latest buy is more than 3000 square feet of Bamboo flooring and expensive underlay. Got it from Vancouver,Canada.

Wanted to buy it from a supplier in Florida, but Conus etc etc. I am unable to grasp how anybody can say no to 14000 USD deal? His loss!


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

sorry to bring this back from the dead, but am i missing something? i just crossed check prices and they're within "shipping" cost of each other, not hundreds of dollars.


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## Lencoth (Apr 29, 2008)

Memphis1 said:


> i just crossed check prices and they're within "shipping" cost of each other, not hundreds of dollars.





Memphis1 said:


> but am i missing something?


You did the checking, how are we to know? ;-)


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## vintage navitimer (Oct 7, 2009)

I have no reason not to like watchbuys, they sell nice watches . . . but I feel it is in Sinns best interest to have a brick and mortar store front for the public as a retail store with a repair facility that is capable of handling "all repairs" not just the conventional . . . no disrespect to RGM intended. There is comfort in buying a watch from a store you can walk into, see a familiar face, an individual willing to work with you on a purchase price and most importantly help if you have an issue. I do not own several models of Sinns do to the need to ship to Germany should I have a problem. I currently have three Sinn's, a 103 A Sa, a 256, and a 556. Any issues can be handled by my local watchmaker, no argon gas, no oil filled case, no moisture capsule . . . just good old watchmaking.


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Memphis1 said:


> sorry to bring this back from the dead, but am i missing something? i just crossed check prices and they're within "shipping" cost of each other, not hundreds of dollars.


Yes, you forgot to deduct the VAT from the price. It's quite a huge difference especially now with the Euro so weak against the dollar.

The thing about watchbuys is that they are local to me - 15 mins from my office - and they *still* wouldn't let me see a watch in person. Their answer was that they have a return policy. Of course, I'd have to pay $70 for shipping to me and back. If I'm going to have to pay local sales tax (which is fine with me) I should at least get the convenience of seeing the watch in person and being able to save on the shipping costs. Their inflexibility, lack of favorable exchange rates and their generally already higher than expected pricing has turned me off to the company. I hope Sinn gets another AD on board in the states or all my future purchases will be used (no direct benefit to them), grey market or when I get the chance to travel to Europe.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

novan3 said:


> Clearly an old thread but Blue Bird is right, Louis Black in dowtown Toronto is a Sinn AD. I bought my U1 there, they're still an AD and had a few models behind on display a month ago; as well as Richard Mille and other very high-end watches. They can order any Sinn watch from Germany that they don't have in stock.
> 
> Louis Black - World's finest timepieces and jewellery Call to inquire what's in stock.
> 
> It appears they don't make noise about being an AD because of the agreement WatchBuys has, and honestly, they don't look like they're hurting for business.


I have purchased two Sinn models from Louis Black (they are an AD) and pricing with discounts was better than Watchbuys offered at the time.

They were good to deal with as well. I haven't been in their shop for a year or so, so I don't know what the stock is like now.

Cheers, Al


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Sinn watches are a superb deal, no matter how much you pay!

If you live in the US, I think you should support your local dealer, Watchbuys !!


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

torifile said:


> Yes, you forgot to deduct the VAT from the price. It's quite a huge difference especially now with the Euro so weak against the dollar.
> 
> The thing about watchbuys is that they are local to me - 15 mins from my office - and they *still* wouldn't let me see a watch in person. Their answer was that they have a return policy. Of course, I'd have to pay $70 for shipping to me and back. If I'm going to have to pay local sales tax (which is fine with me) I should at least get the convenience of seeing the watch in person and being able to save on the shipping costs. Their inflexibility, lack of favorable exchange rates and their generally already higher than expected pricing has turned me off to the company. I hope Sinn gets another AD on board in the states or all my future purchases will be used (no direct benefit to them), grey market or when I get the chance to travel to Europe.


That would frustrate me too. I understand they probably aren't set up for public traffic, but if I owned a company that sells watches I would probably welcome someone who wanted to stop in to buy a watch.


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Janne said:


> Sinn watches are a superb deal, no matter how much you pay!
> 
> If you live in the US, I think you should support your local dealer, Watchbuys !!


Why? How has this company helped me at all? They don't have a showroom where I can view the pieces. They don't let me pick up locally. They don't offer great pricing. In fact, I'd be better off if Sinn let me order direct. Hell, from what I can tell, they don't even employ all that many people so I'm not even able to help support the local economy by buying local.

I'm a small business owner myself, so I understand the sentiment, but when there are so many drawbacks, I'd just as soon see them go away.


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## breitlingso08 (Jun 14, 2008)

Well try as I could I emailed ever sinn dealer from here to Germany and NO one would even talk about selling me a watch. They all said you have to purchase from watchbuys. Seems like a bit of a monopoly but... I just purchased a 103 a sa on bracelet and those guys were very nice and answered any question I had. Could I have found a sinn cheaper? Maybe but I'm happy nonetheless.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

What you feel is exactly what we feel when we see the letters CONUS.


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Janne said:


> What you feel is exactly what we feel when we see the letters CONUS.


Fair enough.  Although I think it's a little more acute for me since I can literally drive to and from watchbuys' office during my lunch hour.


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## breitlingso08 (Jun 14, 2008)

Plus watchbuys gives you rewards toward new purchases and straps. My one purchase gives me 50 bucks off the sinn strap I want


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

But I agree to that you should be able to walk in and buy the watch you want. Have you spoken to the owner?


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Janne said:


> But I agree to that you should be able to walk in and buy the watch you want. Have you spoken to the owner?


I did the "live chat" thing and they said that their insurance doesn't allow for walk-in business. (I also called and left a message but received no phone call back.)

As I said, I own a small business and I have insurance on my office (not retail) and I don't think that there's any provision that talks about who can come into the business. They could have a policy that calls for that but I feel like it was a BS line, which has made me feel even less enthusiastic about buying from them.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

flyingpicasso said:


> That would frustrate me too. I understand they probably aren't set up for public traffic, but if I owned a company that sells watches I would probably welcome someone who wanted to stop in to buy a watch.


Let's see: the have exclusive access to a market of 300,000,000 people, they offer no discounts, they have poor inventory, they dont service their products, and they have a distribution warehouse / office only.

No thanks watchbuys. You have to bring SOMETHING to the table if you want my business.


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## breitlingso08 (Jun 14, 2008)

I was upset by the idea that watchbuys is the only place to get a sinn. It's rediculous and bottom line it's done to stop discounting. There was another company that did that before ROLEX. Look at them know, sinns resale is getting better as the days go by.


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Will_f said:


> Let's see: the have exclusive access to a market of 300,000,000 people, they offer no discounts, they have poor inventory, they dont service their products, and they have a distribution warehouse / office only.
> 
> No thanks watchbuys. You have to bring SOMETHING to the table if you want my business.


Exactly. The *only* thing they offer is the watch. They are the classic example of a middle man that adds no value at all. Even Best Buy adds more value than watchbuys, IMO. Sinn would do better to shift to direct-only sales in the US. I don't understand why they have this arrangement at all.


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## petew (Apr 6, 2006)

I've been collecting watches for a long time and I will say this. Before Watchbuys became a dealer, you (people in the US) could buy Sinn's for a considerably less amount of money. I bought a couple straight from Germany back in the old days. Everything changed once they became the US dealer.


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## Statius (Mar 28, 2007)

Well, I'm buying a 356 acrylic in a couple of weeks, and I don't really have a choice, so I'll just suck it up and buy from Watchbuys.


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## Whoknewi (Nov 9, 2010)

Also, RGM charges absurd rates for servicing/repair. I'd much rather send all my watches to IWW for needed maintenance, or even direct to germany.


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## Whoknewi (Nov 9, 2010)

we should send this thread to sinn =D


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

so i just checked out a 757 S on leather... in Jurawatches it's $3900 and watchbuys is $3600

the 356 UTC on leather... in Jurawatches it's $3400 and watchbuys is $2800


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Memphis1 said:


> so i just checked out a 757 S on leather... in Jurawatches it's $3900 and watchbuys is $3600


Don't forget to deduct the VAT - 20% in the UK. That puts Jurawatches at $3120.


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

how would you deduct VAT?? if I buy from the US, that's the price i pay, no?? if you buy it in the UK you pay VAT too, right?? 

what scenario would you say, "no, i'll pay the price without VAT because ......."


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## kevral (May 10, 2011)

Memphis1 said:


> what scenario would you say, "no, i'll pay the price without VAT because ......."


"... because I live outside the EU?"


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

is this the same in Spain?? i just picked up a Certina and there were clearly two prices and i paid the higher of the two... there was no option not to


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## kevral (May 10, 2011)

If you live in the States and buy something physically in the EU, you can ask for a VAT refund. You then need to present papers to a customs official at the airport, get them stamped, and then send the papers in for a refund - or if you're lucky, get a cash refund at the airport.

If you live in the States and buy something over the internet/telephone from the EU, they should only make you pay the sales price without VAT.


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

oh man... gotta get in contact with that dealer then... now it makes sense what you guys are saying. So going forward, i'll buy from jurawatches or any other SINN dealer you guys can suggest


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## breitlingso08 (Jun 14, 2008)

That's the problem if jurawatches is an authorized sinn dealer they will NOT sell and ship a watch to the us. Trust me every sinn dealer I email told me no they won't sell to me and I had to buy from watchbuys.com


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Memphis1 said:


> is this the same in Spain?? i just picked up a Certina and there were clearly two prices and i paid the higher of the two... there was no option not to


Yes. There's a form you fill out to get VAT refunded. If you travel out of the country, it's as kevral said.


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## Memphis1 (Feb 19, 2011)

if there's no loophole to pay non VAT prices, watchbuys is cheaper. lol!


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

Memphis1 said:


> if there's no loophole to pay non VAT prices, watchbuys is cheaper. lol!


It's not a loophole.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Memphis1 said:


> if there's no loophole to pay non VAT prices, watchbuys is cheaper. lol!


You did your math incorrectly...it's actually $3277 when you deduct the 19% VAT (3900 divided by 1.19).


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## torifile (Jul 6, 2011)

CMSgt Bo said:


> You did your math incorrectly...it's actually $3277 when you deduct the 19% VAT (3900 divided by 1.19).


VAT in the UK is 20%. But you're right about the math being wrong. It's $3250.

here's the info on getting a refund.


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## cadomniel (Nov 20, 2010)

Phoned Louis Black today to check some prices and they were quite a bit more expensive for the equivalent models from watchbuys, even after considering the customs/duties I would have to pay when ordering from the US.


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## Statius (Mar 28, 2007)

cadomniel said:


> Phoned Louis Black today to check some prices and they were quite a bit more expensive for the equivalent models from watchbuys, even after considering the customs/duties I would have to pay when ordering from the US.


I emailed them a few days ago about the 356. Never heard back. It was probably because I quoted the Watchbuys price in my message.


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## JP Chestnut (Apr 12, 2011)

Janne said:


> _*Sinn watches are a superb deal, no matter how much you pay!*_
> 
> If you live in the US, I think you should support your local dealer, Watchbuys !!


This statement is logically false. A Sinn for 10,000 USD would be a terrible deal.


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## Victory205 (Dec 28, 2011)

Let me provide a small example- I was in the Sinn showroom this morning in Frankfurt. Their "Strap Deployant Buckle" lists for €30. With every fee I can think of, _including _the VAT (that US residents can have refunded) and max duty, the clasp is no more than $47 USD.

Watchbuys charges $80 for the device...


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## marzen (Jun 15, 2008)

Well, you gotta pay to play.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

kevral said:


> If you live in the States and buy something physically in the EU, you can ask for a VAT refund. You then need to present papers to a customs official at the airport, get them stamped, and then send the papers in for a refund - or if you're lucky, get a cash refund at the airport.
> 
> If you live in the States and buy something over the internet/telephone from the EU, they should only make you pay the sales price without VAT.


And then, when you arrive in the US, you need to go to the Customs, declare your watch, and pay the taxes that apply there.


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## kevral (May 10, 2011)

Yes, of course, but import tax may be due, depending on your country, whether or not you have paid sales tax in the country of origin.

Due to clueless sellers I've paid both foreign and local tax more than once. The really fun part there is having to pay local sales tax _on the foreign tax_, as well as on the object itself.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

It is up to the buyer to demand the tax back, be it in the store or at the point of exit.

How is the seller supposed to know you are exporting the watch?


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

Janne said:


> And then, when you arrive in the US, you need to go to the Customs, declare your watch, and pay the taxes that apply there.


US import duty is pretty low. I bought a US $4100 watch and paid $80 in duty (2% more or less).


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Will_f said:


> US import duty is pretty low. I bought a US $4100 watch and paid $80 in duty (2% more or less).


Cheap!


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## kevral (May 10, 2011)

Janne said:


> How is the seller supposed to know you are exporting the watch?


You ordering online and asking the seller to ship it to an address outside the EU?

Happened to me a few times, even from professional dealers. Sometimes it's probably ignorance - but sometimes it's quite obviously laziness. I have ordered custom made leather goods directly from a highend French manufacturer that openly and unashamedly refused to deal with proper export procedure. In that particular case I went into it with my eyes open though, as I really wanted the items even with double taxes.


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## Kurt Koerfgen (Feb 10, 2006)

kevral said:


> You ordering online and asking the seller to ship it to an address outside the EU?
> 
> Happened to me a few times, even from professional dealers. Sometimes it's probably ignorance - but sometimes it's quite obviously laziness. I have ordered custom made leather goods directly from a highend French manufacturer that openly and unashamedly refused to deal with proper export procedure. In that particular case I went into it with my eyes open though, as I really wanted the items even with double taxes.


Considering the extra administrative (bookkeeping) effort involved, I do not blame a merchant if he chooses that he cannot justify the additional workload required for a limited number of overseas orders.
I consider the term "laziness" under these circumstances out of place.

And in the end choice still lies with the customer: If you want the goods badly enough you accept the tax; otherwise you move on and buy somewhere else.


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