# New Zenith release



## gumpy-au

hey everyone. Just visited their website and they’re teasing a new watch in the next two days. Anyone know much about it? Looks like a ceramic bezel chrono. Pretty excited.


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## 54B

Likewise! I don't know anything about this watch but the teaser on the Zenith website is doing its job well!


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## 54B

Given the 2.5 on the bezel lines up with the 3 o’clock marker, it could be a Striking 10th


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## WTSP

I think you're right! It clearly says "10th of a Second" on the bezel, which makes sense when it seems that the numbers go from 0 to 100 in increments of 10. The original had measured this in fractions.










Looks like DesmoIsland will be proven right.
What would you like to see from Zenith?

My guess is that the site shows a 42 mm model though.


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## 54B

WTSP said:


> It clearly says "10th of a Second" on the bezel


Thanks - I completely missed that when looking at the teaser on my mobile. Yes, that gives away the game. 2021 was meant to be the year of the Reverso for me but I may have to replan...


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## gumpy-au

54B said:


> Thanks - I completely missed that when looking at the teaser on my mobile. Yes, that gives away the game. 2021 was meant to be the year of the Reverso for me but I may have to replan...


If they release this in 38mm I'll be all over it. How nice would a reasonably sized chrono with a date be.


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## DesmoIsland

gumpy_999 said:


> hey everyone. Just visited their website and they're teasing a new watch in the next two days. Anyone know much about it? Looks like a ceramic bezel chrono. Pretty excited.


Striking 10, 41mm


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## gumpy-au

DesmoIsland said:


> Striking 10, 41mm


Ah. :/. Hope they make a smaller version too


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## dpn

Couple more clues from the Zenith Instagram page. Whatever it is, it looks a lot more conventional than their current Defy line. My guess: The El Primero 21 1/100s chronograph in a more conventional looking package.


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## DesmoIsland

yES, i HEAR 


gumpy_999 said:


> Ah. :/. Hope they make a smaller version too


Yes, I hear a new 38mm with the striking 1/10th chrono will be released.


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## gumpy-au

DesmoIsland said:


> yES, i HEAR
> 
> Yes, I hear a new 38mm with the striking 1/10th chrono will be released.


I'll be bashing down the door at my ad to get one =)


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## DesmoIsland

I


WTSP said:


> I think you're right! It clearly says "10th of a Second" on the bezel, which makes sense when it seems that the numbers go from 0 to 100 in increments of 10. The original had measured this in fractions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like DesmoIsland will be proven right.
> What would you like to see from Zenith?
> 
> My guess is that the site shows a 42 mm model though.


It's a 41


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## gumpy-au

dpn said:


> Couple more clues from the Zenith Instagram page. Whatever it is, it looks a lot more conventional than their current Defy line. My guess: The El Primero 21 1/100s chronograph in a more conventional looking package.


They are replacing the el primero with a ceramic bezel version? seems weird... that can't be right? seems like too large a change for that linage...


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## dpn

gumpy_999 said:


> They are replacing the el primero with a ceramic bezel version? seems weird... that can't be right? seems like too large a change for that linage...


Maybe I have the terminology wrong. What I meant is that this may be their first classically-styled (Chronomaster style?) chronograph that uses their El Primero 21 movement. Unless I'm mistaken, the El Primero 21 movement is only available now in the aggressive skeletonized style of the Defy line.


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## alllexandru

Here you can see more details on the bezel, probably will be ceramic also.
Finger crossed it is looking good!










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## faapaa

Think it might be larger than 38 due to the ceramic bezel, 40mm could replace the current 38 & 42


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

dpn said:


> Maybe I have the terminology wrong. What I meant is that this may be their first classically-styled (Chronomaster style?) chronograph that uses their El Primero 21 movement. Unless I'm mistaken, the El Primero 21 movement is only available now in the aggressive skeletonized style of the Defy line.


To turn the Defy 21 / 9004 caliber into a striking tenth they would have to reduce the speed of the chronograph from 1/100th of a second to 1/10th. I think it's more likely that Zenith will take their current Striking 10th caliber 4052 B based on the "real" El Primero caliber 400 and put it in a new case for 2021. Of course with the 21 and 2021 thing going on maybe it will be based on the 9004, maybe some sort of 9052.


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## One-Seventy

faapaa said:


> Think it might be larger than 38 due to the ceramic bezel, 40mm could replace the current 38 & 42
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I know what they're going to do - make a 40mm and a 44mm, and the 40mm will be available with a white ceramic bezel, a MOP dial and diamonds, and be sold as a ladies' model.


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## DesmoIsland

41mm


faapaa said:


> Think it might be larger than 38 due to the ceramic bezel, 40mm could replace the current 38 & 42
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


41mm


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## dpn

WTSP said:


> To turn the Defy 21 / 9004 caliber into a striking tenth they would have to reduce the speed of the chronograph from 1/100th of a second to 1/10th. I think it's more likely that Zenith will take their current Striking 10th caliber 4052 B based on the "real" El Primero caliber 400 and put it in a new case for 2021. Of course with the 21 and 21 thing going on maybe it will be based on the 9004, maybe some sort of 9052.


I agree with you, and confess that I spoke before intimately understanding the various Zenith chronograph movements. Thanks for sharing your expertise and teaching me a thing or two!

Cheers,

Dan


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## WTSP

dpn said:


> I agree with you, and confess that I spoke before intimately understanding the various Zenith chronograph movements. Thanks for sharing your expertise and teaching me a thing or two!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dan


We'll see! You may still be proven right and we may have a caliber 9004 measuring one tenth of a second.


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## Chingoo




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## WTSP

That's a nice piece. Everything about it is nice and balanced. The one thing I'd prefer is if the bezel were a tad narrower, but a nice piece on the whole. I'd still probably go for the Stratos Striking Tenth over this though.

I can't currently access their site, so perhaps enthusiasts are stampeding in for the news.


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## DesmoIsland

dpn said:


> I agree with you, and confess that I spoke before intimately understanding the various Zenith chronograph movements. Thanks for sharing your expertise and teaching me a thing or two!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dan


It's the same caliber that was used in the Chronomaster 2, 50th Anniversary Edition. Updated version of the 1/10 chrono (Striking 10ths) , totally re-worked. Caliber 3600.


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## Mark355

Shame about the date window.


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## gumpy-au

looks great... not sure if that will fit my wrist but looks f'n great


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## MichaelB25

$10k MSRP.


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## El-Duderino

Design-wise I think Zenith knocked it out of the park with this one. $10k MSRP might be a tad aggressive, but you do get a lot of bang for your buck. I am intrigued and may trade in my Classic Cars toward one. Now the white or black dial version is the big question.


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## DesmoIsland

El-Duderino said:


> Design-wise I think Zenith knocked it out of the park with this one. $10k MSRP might be a tad aggressive, but you do get a lot of bang for your buck. I am intrigued and may trade in my Classic Cars toward one. Now the white or black dial version is the big question.
> 
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> [/QUOTE
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> The Zentona


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## zigg

Live now


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## gumpy-au

it's a tad thick...


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## nursemanit

Just saw the youtube - wow - I like the 3600 cal. and the watch is hot. I wish it was in 38 or 40 mm


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## MichaelB25

I love the finishing on the el primero dials, and adding in the ceramic bezel adds a bit of visual pop that does separate out into a more sporty option. It's a very attractive combination.

I do wish it was a bit thinner (<13mm), and had some form of a micro-adjust clasp. Other than that, I like a lot of what it's offering. the 1/10th is so much more useful than a standard beat rate chrono.


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## gumpy-au

after 1 hour of looking at it, i like the date =)


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## cheu_f50

Have not decide if $10k is worth it or not. But the 1/10th function is welcomed. Really like what zenith is doing on the technology front.

Will be checking with AD when one comes in to see it in person.


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## h2c

The new chronomaster looks great but i also wish it was sub 40mm and sub13mm. If it looks good on in person and there was a good deal 30-40%off at the AD....I would pick it up in a heart beat.


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## ParkinNJ

The movement, dial layout, and ceramic bezel are welcome changes. I would have also preferred a slightly thinner case but the overall size and lug-to-lug lengths appear very reasonable. The white dial is definitely on my short list to see in person.


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## green_arc

I love this watch, but all can see is Daytona.


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## Nathan356

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that they left the fractional seconds markers in there?


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## ChronoTraveler

I wish the big seconds hand was still red. Other than that, I really like the white version.


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## 54B

Nathan356 said:


> Is anyone else bothered by the fact that they left the fractional seconds markers in there?


Yes! It doesn't bother me so much as to put me off the watch, but it's seems pointless to me.

Overall, I think they've done a great job, inside and out. Personally, I can't justify having two Chronomasters and I'm not sure that I prefer this to my cermacised aluminium version (24.2041.400/01.R576). If the 1mm size reduction makes a difference on the wrist, I could be swayed...


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## GrimFandango

I love it. I can already tell the discussion is going to revolve around its likeness to the ceramic Daytona. But in terms of design and (as far as I can tell at this point), movement I personally love this release.


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## MichaelB25

h2c said:


> The new chronomaster looks great but i also wish it was sub 40mm and sub13mm


I think I read that it's like 13.5mm thick. Not _too_ bad. I do agree I wish it were sub-13 tho.

I like the multi-colored subdials a lot more on the white. I sort of wish the black dial version had a design more like this as I think it just provides better contrast against the black dial, but that may have made the inevitable comparisons to the Daytona even more unavoidable.


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## h2c

Just gotta wait for the different colors to come out in the future....


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## nursemanit

h2c said:


> Just gotta wait for the different colors to come out in the future....


I will wait for the white bezel / white dial version.


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## tiktiktok

case too big, lugs too long. expensive and the date window is not placed well. I still prefer than 38mm version. 
This one is no good.


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## nursemanit

That is where the date belongs on an El Pr.


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## bogdanco

not a big watch expert, i do own an EP 38mm and i am looking for a A384 probably when will be able to travel to get it cheaper from US ... i love how this new iteration looks, but honestly first time i saw it i said it is a Daytona; definetely great addition of hack seconds and great movement but i am a bit torn on this very very close image of a Daytona - it should have had more personality imo

14mm and 41mm will probably be too big for me and at 10.000 seems high... i would still stay with A384 or A386


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MichaelB25

tiktiktok said:


> case too big, lugs too long. expensive and the date window is not placed well. I still prefer than 38mm version.
> This one is no good.


Lugs are actually really short for a 41mm watch.


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## wrxdev

Should be call it the Zaytona. Nice job Zenith.


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## djpharoah

Just saw the watch advisor video of this watch and there's a noticeable time difference between the main chronograph seconds hand and the dial at 3 o'clock in that they don't pass the time of seconds at the same time. It seems like the 3 o'clock dial passes every 10 sec marker earlier than the main chronograph central hand....


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## zigg

The chrono may have been started earlier in the video. The 3 o'clock dial shows seconds elapsed (running) - exactly the same as the big seconds hand (10 seconds period). Play the video at 0.33 and watch white dial and then the 3.56 for more details.

Btw, can the main second at 9 o'clock be hacked?


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## nursemanit

djpharoah said:


> Just saw the watch advisor video of this watch and there's a noticeable time difference between the main chronograph seconds hand and the dial at 3 o'clock in that they don't pass the time of seconds at the same time. It seems like the 3 o'clock dial passes every 10 sec marker earlier than the main chronograph central hand....


It could be the video frame rate - but I also see it.


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## AustinAutomatics

I'm honestly not sure if the comparisons to the white/black Daytona are unfair or not. It's not like Rolex can claim that no one would ever implement a black ceramic bezel on a white dialed chronograph. Either way, it is a beautiful design.

$10k is high, especially given Zenith's residuals. I'd really like to see the brand control supply more before getting my first Zenith. But if the time comes, this might be the watch!


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## kak1154

I'm not sure why people are saying that $10k is too high. Wasn't the Striking 10th like $11k or $12k? I'm actually surprised it's less than that, unless there's something I'm missing about the movement.

I mean, the regular Chronomaster 36'000 VPH is $8,200. A 1/10th is obviously going to be more than that.


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## kritameth

djpharoah said:


> Just saw the watch advisor video of this watch and there's a noticeable time difference between the main chronograph seconds hand and the dial at 3 o'clock in that they don't pass the time of seconds at the same time. It seems like the 3 o'clock dial passes every 10 sec marker earlier than the main chronograph central hand....


Just watched UptickWatchReviews' and it's the same as well.


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## zigg

The more I look at this watch the more I seem to abandon the plans for the Defy EP 21 in favour of the white dial. At least I wont have to sell my Defy Classic Skeleton now.


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## DesmoIsland

kak1154 said:


> I'm not sure why people are saying that $10k is too high. Wasn't the Striking 10th like $11k or $12k? I'm actually surprised it's less than that, unless there's something I'm missing about the movement.
> 
> I mean, the regular Chronomaster 36'000 VPH is $8,200. A 1/10th is obviously going to be more than that.


 A Daytona is $13,800, and you will have to pay a lot more than that to secure one. $10k is a bargain for this watch.


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## Ginseng108

I've never been a chrono or a Zenith fan but this has got me reconsidering both points.


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## Hartmut Richter

I am not sure why people are calling this the Zaytona - there are plenty of other panda/reverse panda Zeniths that might be called that too. I see little Rolex here (after all, it's got a date window, so how could it be compared with the Daytona?!).

For another thing, yes, I do think that the subsecond markings are a little superfluous on the minuterie - but I am far more bothered by the fact that the 1/10 seconds markings on the outside are all the same so that you can't immediately tell whether it's e.g. 5/10th of a second or 6/10th of a second. Especially since a whole sond on the outer scale covers six seconds on the inner one rather than five!

Hartmut Richter


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## knickerbocker

Just contacted my local AD about this watch, wanted to take a look at it in person. They're asking me if I want to join the waitlist. Dunno if I believe this, or if its some sales tactic, and they're trying to play me as a sucker. lol


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## MichaelB25

AustinAutomatics said:


> I'm honestly not sure if the comparisons to the white/black Daytona are unfair or not. It's not like Rolex can claim that no one would ever implement a black ceramic bezel on a white dialed chronograph. Either way, it is a beautiful design.


The rest of the design really is El Primero in DNA. But the bezel is just unmistakably close. and it's right, Rolex doesn't have a lockdown on black dial ceramic bezels. It's just the one we most associate with the style.


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## One-Seventy

MichaelB25 said:


> I think I read that it's like 13.5mm thick. Not _too_ bad. I do agree I wish it were sub-13 tho.
> 
> I like the multi-colored subdials a lot more on the white. I sort of wish the black dial version had a design more like this as I think it just provides better contrast against the black dial, but that may have made the inevitable comparisons to the Daytona even more unavoidable.
> 
> View attachment 15664839


I've seen one of those in the flesh. Despite the superficial similarity driven by the treatment of two of the subdials, in real life so much of it is different to the Daytona. Only if you were looking for a battle would you claim one was ripped off from the other.

The Zenith is bigger, with no external bezel, different marker, tapered "tweezer" hands, a date, two partly encircled subdials, an outer contrasting chapter ring, brushed lugs in a different shape, no crown guard, different (unscrewed) pushers, and a very different case profile.


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## 54B

I’ve ordered one and hope that the short lugs offset the 41mm diameter (which is only slightly larger than I’d prefer).

There are often similarities between watches but for me the Chronomaster Sport stands well on its own. I’m sure people will comment, “Is that a Rolex? Oh, it’s not, never mind” - similar to comments I’ve had on a Grand Seiko and a Tudor Pelagos. But that’s all part of the fun - knowing that I’m happy with the watch even if others are expecting something else.


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## dantan

Lose the date feature!


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## AustinAutomatics

54B said:


> I've ordered one and hope that the short lugs offset the 41mm diameter (which is only slightly larger than I'd prefer).
> 
> There are often similarities between watches but for me the Chronomaster Sport stands well on its own. I'm sure people will comment, "Is that a Rolex? Oh, it's not, never mind" - similar to comments I've had on a Grand Seiko and a Tudor Pelagos. But that's all part of the fun - knowing that I'm happy with the watch even if others are expecting something else.


It's a really, really cool watch. I'm sure you'll enjoy the heck out of it!


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## WTSP

Is this the limited edition version that was released earlier? Surprised to see that grey market dealers have already started carrying models with the caliber 3600.
Zenith El Primero Chronograph Automatic Men's Watch 95.3001.3600/69.C817

I'm an advocate of right pricing rather than stretch pricing products. I agree with others that Zenith may have stretched a bit far on the $10k. Looks like Jomashop may have proven it.


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## Hartmut Richter

dantan said:


> Lose the date feature!


No, *don't* lose the date feature!! It's quite useful and sets it apart from minimalistic, overpriced efforts like the Daytona!

Hartmut Richter


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## green_arc

Better looking than the Daytona, but not unique enough to distance itself from that watch. That's the rub for me, especially at $10,000. The Zenith ceramic bezel has similar width, similar finish, and almost the same fall away angle. The angle of the face of the bezel and the reflections produced are what scream Daytona. The bracelet is also unnecessarily similar with the polished center. I'd have one on the nylon just to get away from that point of similarity.


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## kak1154

DesmoIsland said:


> A Daytona is $13,800, and you will have to pay a lot more than that to secure one. $10k is a bargain for this watch.


Right, even if you're lucky, you are paying MSRP. For the Zenith, let's be honest, you're getting at least 20% off. So in actual-land, it's $8k vs. $13,800, or $8k vs. $23k. Not really in the same ballpark price-wise.

I still would like to hear some logic about why $10k MSRP is too much for this watch, and what the price should've been instead.


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## gumpy-au

Folks do you know the service internal for these zeniths?


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## One-Seventy

kak1154 said:


> Right, even if you're lucky, you are paying MSRP. For the Zenith, let's be honest, you're getting at least 20% off. So in actual-land, it's $8k vs. $13,800, or $8k vs. $23k. Not really in the same ballpark price-wise.
> 
> I still would like to hear some logic about why $10k MSRP is too much for this watch, and what the price should've been instead.


So the real world pricing, unless you're a grey or a flipper whale, is around a third the price of a Daytona.

I think the price assessment is an automatic knee-jerk reaction, Zenith = discounts, rather than a critical assessment of the product. This is the same price, plus or minus a hundred, as the automatic Speedmaster, the IWC Portugeiser and the JL Polaris chrono. But that's doesn't matter, because Zenith = discounts, and there's nothing else to consider.

"Zenith launches chrono with famous movement featuring unique timing feature."

"I'll only buy it at a nice discount."


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## GrimFandango

gumpy_999 said:


> Folks do you know the service internal for these zeniths?


Should be 5 years. 2 years warranty. People say the relatively short service interval has to do with the higher beat rate. I am not sure whether that is true.


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## palletwheel

One question for me is: are they going to discontinue the Calibre 400? Given the pricing, it would be the expected move assuming they are done with the historic reissues.


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## Hartmut Richter

palletwheel said:


> One question for me is: are they going to discontinue the Calibre 400? Given the pricing, it would be the expected move assuming they are done with the historic reissues.


I don't think that they would ever discontinue the El Primero Cal. 400 unless they have something equivalent. Maybe one day they will develop a new "basic" chronograph (automatic, three registers, date feature, ordinary timing function - maybe with vertical clutch to keep up with the rest) but until then, the EP is here to stay. And then, why change it? It is still one of the most accurate and rugged movements there is.....

Hartmut Richter


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## WTSP

Hartmut Richter said:


> I don't think that they would ever discontinue the El Primero Cal. 400 unless they have something equivalent. Maybe one day they will develop a new "basic" chronograph (automatic, three registers, date feature, ordinary timing function - maybe with vertical clutch to keep up with the rest) but until then, the EP is here to stay. And then, why change it? It is still one of the most accurate and rugged movements there is.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


If the new caliber 3600 has fewer parts (314 vs 326), as well as a reduced variety of screw and jewel sizes, is it perhaps already the more basic movement?


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## palletwheel

Hartmut Richter said:


> I don't think that they would ever discontinue the El Primero Cal. 400 unless they have something equivalent. Maybe one day they will develop a new "basic" chronograph (automatic, three registers, date feature, ordinary timing function - maybe with vertical clutch to keep up with the rest) but until then, the EP is here to stay. And then, why change it? It is still one of the most accurate and rugged movements there is.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Well, reading the Hodinkee article, they save cost in build. There's also money saved in simplifying the product line. You can remove the striking 10 complication from the 3600 and raise the price for a Chronomaster with that mod, but still price it below the new release. No need for the 400 given that.

It's Complicated: The Zenith Chronomaster Sport, With The El Primero Caliber 3600 - HODINKEE


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## One-Seventy

Hartmut Richter said:


> I don't think that they would ever discontinue the El Primero Cal. 400 unless they have something equivalent. Maybe one day they will develop a new "basic" chronograph (automatic, three registers, date feature, ordinary timing function - maybe with vertical clutch to keep up with the rest) but until then, the EP is here to stay. And then, why change it? It is still one of the most accurate and rugged movements there is.....


Probably not but I would be very happy to see it given a hacking feature (after only 51 years!) and the 60h barrel from the newer movements. As the 400 has had gradual improvements over the years, it wouldn't be a stretch to add these and continue to call it a 400 (or 400C).


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## Hartmut Richter

I can't confirm this but my personal belief has always been that, because the El Primero was designed to be not only robust and extremely accurate but also rather slim (it took 17 years to come up with something equivalent and slimmer - Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185) so that there was no space left for the traditional bar between keyless works and balance to stop the latter when setting the time. And if there was no space then, there won't be any space now or ever in the future - you would have to redesign the movement.

I wasn't aware of the Cal. 3600 (I have so many things to do these days that I am not keeping up very well with modern developments). Thanks for pointing that out to me. However, it looks to me as if the Cal. 3600 is not really a complete new development but rather a redesign of the Cal. 400 or, more accurately, of the Cal. 4057. However, as Hodinkee pointed out, the power drain on the balance in this set up (taking the chronograph drive off the escapement gear rather than the fourth gear) is too great for this to become a "normal" chronograph.

As for the watch looking like the Daytona, my first reaction was "*WHAT?!?!*" And even now, I see hardly any resemblance. OK, so it's got a ceramic bezel but that's about it - even the lettering on the bezel is completely different! As for the rest: subdials *completely *different, with date feature, applied indices different, logo structure different (star in middle rather than as a 12:00 marker)..... - I think that you have all been hodinkeed! Just because they say so, one need not take them up on it! 

Hartmut Richter


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## petay993

Just weighing up the white or black dial, leaning towards the black I think.


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## yonexsp

knickerbocker said:


> Just contacted my local AD about this watch, wanted to take a look at it in person. They're asking me if I want to join the waitlist. Dunno if I believe this, or if its some sales tactic, and they're trying to play me as a sucker. lol


I feel like the joke must be be on me. Waitlists for every watch brand now? $10k a pop and everyone is throwing around money like it grows on trees. Oh wait, it does these days.

I really like the new Sport, but this would be the 3rd waitlist for the 3rd brand I would be on. 
Houses near me are selling for millions sight unseen. People are snapping them up without even seeing them in the flesh or any conditions. The world has gone mad.

But the new Sport is gorgeous looking


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## MichaelMaggi

If I cant get a Snoopy-3, this is the one will buy in 2 years and at a discoint. Gorgeous watch.


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## One-Seventy

MichaelMaggi said:


> If I cant get a Snoopy-3, this is the one will buy in 2 years and at a discoint. Gorgeous watch.


The discount is the most important thing about a Zenith apparently 

Seriously. That's the #1 discussion topic for Zenith. No wonder no one else is interested in them.

"Fantastic new Zenith is out." "Cool! What are the tasty discounts?"

"Lovely watch. What is it?" "I don't remember, but I got it at a discount. So, y'know, all good."

"I like the Zenith XYZ. It's in my budget, and is better than alternatives at a similar price. But the important thing is: is it available with some nice discounts?"


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## FirstF80InSpace

One-Seventy said:


> The discount is the most important thing about a Zenith apparently
> 
> Seriously. That's the #1 discussion topic for Zenith. No wonder no one else is interested in them.
> 
> "Fantastic new Zenith is out." "Cool! What are the tasty discounts?"
> 
> "Lovely watch. What is it?" "I don't remember, but I got it at a discount. So, y'know, all good."
> 
> "I like the Zenith XYZ. It's in my budget, and is better than alternatives at a similar price. But the important thing is: is it available with some nice discounts?"


So you would pay full MSRP for a Zenith?


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## green_arc

I'm seriously lusting after this watch. Black dial with the black strap please. I've been looking to buy the 38mm Chronomaster El Primero for years, but going for this instead. Definitely worth the extra spend.


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## gumpy-au

Anyone seen it in the metal yet?


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## One-Seventy

FirstF80InSpace said:


> So you would pay full MSRP for a Zenith?


If it was a better value proposition, and it was new and had something unique, I wouldn't deny myself. But what I'm saying is that (a) discussion of discounts is about the most popular topic when it comes to Zenith; and (b) it's more common with Zenith than with any other major brand. Are Zenith fans just cheap?


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## 8505davids

Well I'm Scottish so I'd say it was being 'careful' rather than 'cheap'.....


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## MichaelMaggi

One-Seventy said:


> The discount is the most important thing about a Zenith apparently
> 
> Seriously. That's the #1 discussion topic for Zenith. No wonder no one else is interested in them.
> 
> "Fantastic new Zenith is out." "Cool! What are the tasty discounts?"
> 
> "Lovely watch. What is it?" "I don't remember, but I got it at a discount. So, y'know, all good."
> 
> "I like the Zenith XYZ. It's in my budget, and is better than alternatives at a similar price. But the important thing is: is it available with some nice discounts?"


For me the discount is the cherry on top of the sundae. I would buy it at retail now but I'm short on funds and I'm waiting for the Snoopy-3. So I'll give it until the end of 2022. At that the Zenith should be discounted nicely.


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## FirstF80InSpace

One-Seventy said:


> If it was a better value proposition, and it was new and had something unique, I wouldn't deny myself. But what I'm saying is that (a) discussion of discounts is about the most popular topic when it comes to Zenith; and (b) it's more common with Zenith than with any other major brand. Are Zenith fans just cheap?


I think discounts are always discussed because it's probably one of the easiest luxury brands to get a discount. You're pretty much offered a discount before even asking.

It's supply and demand. Zenith are super easy to get and they have horrible residual value. People also look to minimize the hit if they eventually sell.

I personally love Zenith and will eventually get this new one. But I'm definitely not paying full pop for it.


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## WTSP

One-Seventy said:


> The discount is the most important thing about a Zenith apparently
> 
> Seriously. That's the #1 discussion topic for Zenith. No wonder no one else is interested in them.
> 
> "Fantastic new Zenith is out." "Cool! What are the tasty discounts?"
> 
> "Lovely watch. What is it?" "I don't remember, but I got it at a discount. So, y'know, all good."
> 
> "I like the Zenith XYZ. It's in my budget, and is better than alternatives at a similar price. But the important thing is: is it available with some nice discounts?"


It's the same question that has to be asked with countless other brands at a similar market level, including Ulysse Nardin, IWC, Panerai, JLC, Breitling, Breguet, Tag Heuer, Girard Perregaux, even Omega for their averagely popular models. What's the real price? Because it's not the MSRP. The rule I personally apply to any of them is that when purchasing new from an AD a discount of at least 10% to 30% is expected. Nobody sells at list price, their MSRPs are designed as a high target to allow for acceptable margins even when discounted.

The trouble starts when retailers have to discount to 40% to 50% to get pieces moving, then there's a real problem. Some unpopular Zenith models have definitely fallen within the 40% to 50% discount range. However, Dufour and Biver have injected a lot of vitality into Zenith and have released models that people really want. More recent models, like most of the 38 mm pieces and the A384/5/6 reissues, are selling at MSRP or with small 5%-10% discounts. That's the best most watch brands can do really. Everybody but Rolex and perhaps Patek Philippe are in that boat.


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## faapaa

Strange how focus is on discounts on most brands , instead of focusing if it´s nice watch. Except for Rolex, where its acceptable to pay double or even triple MSRP


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## FirstF80InSpace

faapaa said:


> Strange how focus is on discounts on most brands , instead of focusing if it´s nice watch. Except for Rolex, where its acceptable to pay double or even triple MSRP
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It's the law of supply and demand.


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## WTSP

faapaa said:


> Strange how focus is on discounts on most brands , instead of focusing if it´s nice watch. Except for Rolex, where its acceptable to pay double or even triple MSRP
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think there's a lot of transactional usage going on with Rolex beyond people actually wearing them as time telling devices. It's like some sort of alternate currency like gold or a more stable crypto.
Zenith gets little respect


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## One-Seventy

faapaa said:


> Strange how focus is on discounts on most brands , *instead of focusing if it´s nice watch*. Except for Rolex, where its acceptable to pay double or even triple MSRP


That was my observation too. People won't buy it if they like it; they'll buy if it comes with a sweet discount.

I notice Omega discounts get discussed less, for the headline models. At least, it's not the #1 topic of discussion. Same for IWC and Panerai. JLC I don't know; you don't see them sold everywhere, at least there is no discount mania.

At least I know which forum to go to, if I want to discuss some nice Zenith discounts


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## Bugster

Nobody wants to spend more than they have to but it never dictates what I buy (and I always buy new). I blame the YouTube “experts”.

I never even consider resale value but I’m not a flipper. Certainly not the more expensive watches.


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## yonexsp

dantan said:


> Lose the date feature!


Nahh add cyclops, now I am 48 I really appreciate the one on my GMT Master lol!!!


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## Hartmut Richter

Well, I hope that Zenith does a Rolex one of these days and bans ADs from giving discounts! I wonder what half the people here would say then?! But then, it should be OK - the intrinsic quality is definitely there to justify it! After a while's griping, people would get used to it and accept the fact to get the watches that they would really like, never mind the price. And those that would be put off by that were just in it for the discount in the first place.

Other than that, before this discussion gets too detailed, I would like to draw attention to one of our stickies (old, but still valid):









Discussion of pricing for the US market: please read


Dear Zenith Forum Members, May we ask that we please discuss AD discounting via PM or Email from this point forward? Same request regarding grey market pricing and/or references. There are so many factors that are involved in price setting and discounting, some of which can have a very...




www.watchuseek.com





Hartmut Richter


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## th6252

One-Seventy said:


> The discount is the most important thing about a Zenith apparently
> 
> Seriously. That's the #1 discussion topic for Zenith. No wonder no one else is interested in them.
> 
> "Fantastic new Zenith is out." "Cool! What are the tasty discounts?"
> 
> "Lovely watch. What is it?" "I don't remember, but I got it at a discount. So, y'know, all good."
> 
> "I like the Zenith XYZ. It's in my budget, and is better than alternatives at a similar price. But the important thing is: is it available with some nice discounts?"


So what?
The same types of thing are said in the Omega forum for non-limited watches...and I remember back in the mid to late aughts, people would balk at paying any more than 30% off list for regular retail models. I got my first gen planet ocean in 2006 for 33% off list which was pretty common back then.
Not to open another can of worms, but it's obvious Omega is going in the direction of Rolex pricing and although it stinks for us enthusiasts, more power to them. If Zenith decides to put a similar amount of effort into their marketing, I see them having the ability to do the same, their rich history certainly backs it up.


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## faapaa

Iˋve noticed it for a long while, although its more common in certain communities it didnˋt take long before the first comments on this lovely Zenith was something like «what price, discount, would´nt buy it without a discount». Iˋm happy not to be your AD. I wonder what pleases these guys the most, buy a *** watch at a great discount, great watch at retail, or a non interresting common swiss diver at triple retail

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## One-Seventy

th6252 said:


> So what?
> The same types of thing are said in the Omega forum for non-limited watches...and I remember back in the mid to late aughts...


"So what" - I'm not allowed to comment?


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## faapaa

Some TLC with my precious









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## th6252

One-Seventy said:


> "So what" - I'm not allowed to comment?


By the same token, am I not allowed to comment on your comment? This is a "discussion" forum after all.


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## smalleq

Yeah, I don't care if a brand regularly gets discounted as long as I can get in on the discounting myself. Outside of Rolex, Royal Oaks, some Pateks, some limited Omegas and some other LEs in general, I don't think there is a new big brand watch over say $4k that I would pay MSRP for. Zenith isn't any worse than any other brand outside of the above named.

I love my Zenith Shadow, but there isn't a chance I would have purchased it at MSRP and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.


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## faapaa

Do you disagree in the price level of watches, or against paying msrp in general?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## petay993

Right guys, no messing about, I have ordered the Black Dial tonight at MSRP plus a few sweeteners because I think this is a fantastic release and Zenith should be applauded for what they have created here.

£8,300 feels ok to me for the package. I got the last UK piece before the next batch in March,

Pics and thoughts to follow on Monday when it is in my hands.


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## GreatLakesWatch

I ordered the white dial on the bracelet last week. Full MSRP. I don't care as I want this watch and don't want to wait for a surplus to bring the price down. For everyone complaining about the $10k price tag, keep in mind that when this movement came out in the Chronomaster 2 in 2019, the price was.....tadaaa....$10k. And that watch ALSO had a ceramic bezel, but no one was crying Daytona or Zaytona or Chrotona back then. Of course, at full MSRP, I fully expect mine to come with some Zenith swag


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## 54B

GreatLakesWatch said:


> I ordered the white dial on the bracelet last week. Full MSRP.


I did the same. It seems worth it to me but that's of course subjective. It was a tough call between the black dial and the white one.


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## yonexsp

My AD is offering a 10% on this watch out of the gate as a promotion. They are already popping up on Chrono24 at list, so looks like there won't be any issue finding them.


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## FirstF80InSpace

yonexsp said:


> My AD is offering a 10% on this watch out of the gate as a promotion. They are already popping up on Chrono24 at list, so looks like there won't be any issue finding them.


Yep. Mine too. Looks like you won't need to pay full MSRP on this new release.


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## Buddy2

Like I said before, for entertainment and grown up opinion on watches, this channel rocks.

Here's an entertaining take on the new Zenith Sport.. Genius


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## Buddy2

FirstF80InSpace said:


> I personally love Zenith and will eventually get this new one. But I'm definitely not paying full pop for it.


Let's see if you still feel the same in a years time. It would be great to get some discount, but in my view when something hot comes out with a supplier that has limited production and is a potential turning point for the brand for brand recognition by the average watch buyer, and associates itself with a Rolex icon then its a turning point for Zenith. All top quality watch brands would like what Rolex has achieved with their sports models. Zenith is not going to let this opportunity slip, if they have any sense.I will take one of those without hesitation.


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## FirstF80InSpace

Buddy2 said:


> Let's see if you still feel the same in a years time. It would be great to get some discount, but in my view when something hot comes out with a supplier that has limited production and is a potential turning point for the brand for brand recognition by the average watch buyer, and associates itself with a Rolex icon then its a turning point for Zenith. All top quality watch brands would like what Rolex has achieved with their sports models. Zenith is not going to let this opportunity slip, if they have any sense.I will take one of those without hesitation.


They're already available for less than MSRP on Chrono24.


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## One-Seventy

I wonder of those who out of principle won't pay list price for this watch, would pay it for a unicorn Rolex.

Is it because hot steel from The Crown delivers great investment returns on the secondary, and they wouldn't want to be seen with something that has a negative return profile?


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## yonexsp

Buddy2 said:


> Let's see if you still feel the same in a years time. It would be great to get some discount, but in my view when something hot comes out with a supplier that has limited production and is a potential turning point for the brand for brand recognition by the average watch buyer, and associates itself with a Rolex icon then its a turning point for Zenith. All top quality watch brands would like what Rolex has achieved with their sports models. Zenith is not going to let this opportunity slip. I will take one of those without hesitation.


They are already for sale with a 10% discount. Not sure that bides well for the future price retention.


One-Seventy said:


> I wonder of those who out of principle won't pay list price for this watch, would pay it for a unicorn Rolex.
> 
> Is it because hot steel from The Crown delivers great investment returns on the secondary, and they wouldn't want to be seen with something that has a negative return profile?


Too be fair, if one can avoid losing large sums of money on something most people will. Buying a Daytona guarantees that. Its nice to know that you can buy it, and it will lose Zero value. This alone increases the value. Ferraris woudl not be as collectible if they depreciated at the same rate a Kia


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## Alfa2600

I dont own a zenith yet, I was looking at the classic cars last year but looking was as far as I got. 
This new chrono really dose look amazing, I can see the love at first sight purchase. Now I dont buy watches to make money/flip but I also dont buy them if they tank. I've just been on the Goldsmiths website and the sale prices are shocking! I'm not familiar with the zenith models but when you see watches reduced massively it makes you wonder. I'm talking £13,000 down to £8,000 and £7,400 down to £4,500. As much as I love the new zenith chrono, I can wait for the sale if the savings are that great.


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## One-Seventy

yonexsp said:


> Too be fair, if one can avoid losing large sums of money on something most people will. Buying a Daytona guarantees that. _Its nice to know that you can buy it, and it will lose Zero value. This alone increases the value. _Ferraris woudl not be as collectible if they depreciated at the same rate a Kia


Fair enough. I buy things like watches out of genuinely disposable income; but I guess others don't, and need to know they can sell when they need to. So they buy what everyone else wants. I'm OK with that - it means I don't have to queue up and bend over when I spend my disposable .


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## gossler

Alfa2600 said:


> I dont own a zenith yet, I was looking at the classic cars last year but looking was as far as I got.
> This new chrono really dose look amazing, I can see the love at first sight purchase. Now I dont buy watches to make money/flip but I also dont buy them if they tank. I've just been on the Goldsmiths website and the sale prices are shocking! I'm not familiar with the zenith models but when you see watches reduced massively it makes you wonder. I'm talking £13,000 down to £8,000 and £7,400 down to £4,500. As much as I love the new zenith chrono, I can wait for the sale if the savings are that great.


Usually large savings are for unpopular models. I doubt this Chronomaster sport will take a massive hit. Also AD usually give a bit of discount on Zenith, unlike Rolex... where you get the privilege of buying at MSRP.


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## fezz

One-Seventy said:


> I wonder of those who out of principle won't pay list price for this watch, would pay it for a unicorn Rolex.
> 
> Is it because hot steel from The Crown delivers great investment returns on the secondary, and they wouldn't want to be seen with something that has a negative return profile?


You're making it more complicated than it really is. People just prefer to not pay over the market price.


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## fezz

One-Seventy said:


> Fair enough. I buy things like watches out of genuinely disposable income; but I guess others don't, and need to know they can sell when they need to. So they buy what everyone else wants. I'm OK with that - it means I don't have to queue up and bend over when I spend my disposable .


Why would you assume that someone buying from disposable income doesn't want a good deal? I buy from disposable income, but I certainly don't see that as a reason to pay above a fair market price.


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## 54B

fezz said:


> Why would you assume that someone buying from disposable income doesn't want a good deal? I buy from disposable income, but I certainly don't see that as a reason to pay above a fair market price.


I think this is responding to the previous post, where it was suggested that it's nice to buy things knowing that they won't go down in value. That's why it's relevant whether or not someone is using disposable income. It's not that people who are using disposable income are happy to pay over the market price, it's about whether the future resale value is relevant. At least that's how I read that exchange.

Personally, I find a large part of the discussion on discounts a bit odd. If discounts are widely available then it makes sense to go for them. However, some comments suggest that people will never be happy paying the MSRP, irrespective whether that MSRP delivers fair value.


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## Bugster

The watch I want trumps all discount and value retention calculations. 

Do I like the watch? Can I afford the watch? Is it available on sale? If so great, if not and I still want it I’ll still buy it. Resale never comes in to it and if I take a hit later so be it. 

With a bit of time I’m sure you’ll get a bit of AD discount on the Zenith but think it’ll be a long wait (maybe never) for the massive discounts in the annual sales.


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## One-Seventy

54B said:


> I think this is responding to the previous post, where it was suggested that it's nice to buy things knowing that they won't go down in value. That's why it's relevant whether or not someone is using disposable income. It's not that people who are using disposable income are happy to pay over the market price, it's about whether the future resale value is relevant. At least that's how I read that exchange.
> 
> Personally, I find a large part of the discussion on discounts a bit odd. If discounts are widely available then it makes sense to go for them. However, some comments suggest that people will never be happy paying the MSRP, irrespective whether that MSRP delivers fair value.


You expressed what I was about to say. I'm not a flipper so if I buy a Zenith (which I did) I don't care too much if I got a measly 5% and a free beanie or a killer 30%; the watch is no longer a capital asset available for sale, and I'm going to have the watch for donkey's years. This one I certainly will.

Of course, if I had plenty of play money and I liked to flip for a good deal on stocks, watches or anything else for that matter, of course I would buy low, sell high.

Pretty much with Zenith, here as on f2, nice discounts are the key topic for any new watch. "I don't care what value it represents at list price, I never pay list". Well OK. It just reminds me of a discussion I had with someone at work. I asked him what his BMW M4 was like, and he said "oh yeah. It leases well".


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## Hartmut Richter

All this raises the question of what is a "fair market price". People press for discounts on Zeniths mainly because they know that they can get them. At the same time, they know that they can't get them on Rolexes. If Rolexes gave discounts, they'd expect them on Rolexes too. And if Zenith implemented a system just like Rolex to stop discounts, people would gripe but after a while, they'd learn to accept it and pay the MSRP.

It seems as if people buying luxury watches can be broadly divided into two types: those who go for certain watches, never mind the price and those who go for any watch as long as certain factors are right, one of the more important being the price (others are, of course, "I like the way it looks", "I can identify with the brand" and the like). The former might sell the watch but if they don't or can't (at the right price), that's OK. The latter view watches more like cars: you buy them, use them for a while and then switch to the next, getting as much as you can for the old one. Naturally, the latter type concentrate on a rebate right a the start as much as possible whereas the former don't (or do so to a lesser degree).

Which of the two is right? Or which is the better watch customer? The answer is that both have their place in the watch market. People in one category won't understand the other and we will all simply have to "agree to differ". However, one last thing on "finding the right market price": if you squeeze the brand for as much of their potential profit as you can, you risk getting zero innovations, bad quality service, etc. And if you allow them whatever they ask, the number of people able to afford that will be fewer and the brand will lose overall revenue, sell fewer watches, employ fewer people (industry should serve humans, not the other way round!) and get snotty nosed through becoming an ultra luxury brand, affordable to almost noone. It's up to us collectively to find the golden cut somewhere in the middle.

Hartmut Richter


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## fezz

54B said:


> I think this is responding to the previous post, where it was suggested that it's nice to buy things knowing that they won't go down in value. That's why it's relevant whether or not someone is using disposable income. It's not that people who are using disposable income are happy to pay over the market price, it's about whether the future resale value is relevant. At least that's how I read that exchange.


It's really a strange viewpoint. Why would you think a person buying from disposable income wouldn't care about whether his purchase retains value?


----------



## GSNewbie

Anyone who buys a Rolex without a discount has only himself to blame. The argument is simply not conclusive, because it is apparently quickly forgotten that we are talking about luxury goods here. In my opinion, the current market situation, Corona, is being used by Swiss watch manufacturers to position themselves securely in the luxury sector, the greed for luxury knows no bounds and since those with money at Corona times, similar to before, lack nothing, the strategy is promising. Just Rolex shows how it goes, if you only have enough people who are interested in seeing watches as an investment. Is that where every watch manufacturer wants to go?!
Should the customer here pave the way to the ever-increasing greed, especially in public companies to make the shareholders' pockets overflowing?!
In Germany, the new model is sold at a 20% discount. I think that this is the targeted price of Zenith, since the other models on the market have positioned themselves but priced below.
I buy watches according to my taste and Zenith has almost fully met it. However, I see no reason, even with Rolex, to pay the MSRP.


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## Kattywampus

Note to self... GSNewbie is never buying a Rolex.

Here in the states, I'm hearing the new Sports are going for full retail because they're the talk of the watch collecting town. Personally? I like the new Sports with their touch of colors on the sub-dials. I love the fact they're being called Daytona Killers. Although, we all know we'd take a Daytona over a Sport any day of the week because of the branding and value retention. Looking at the pictures and specs, the Sport is the superior watch with the exhibition caseback, water resistance, and that beautiful movement. It's making some of us question why we're in this hobby in the first place. For the love of watches? Or the peacocking of a luxury brand name on our wrists.


----------



## GSNewbie

You're wrong, I have already bought Rolex models in the last two years.
So you can forget your note


----------



## 54B

fezz said:


> It's really a strange viewpoint. Why would you think a person buying from disposable income wouldn't care about whether his purchase retains value?


It's not strange to me. When buying a watch, future resale value isn't a factor in my selection process and I don't pay a second thought to it as I'm not think about selling it down the line. I'm thinking about wearing it, possibly forever.

I have sold watches before and have a track record of not getting a good price (I really should have held onto the steel Rolex I sold!). However, the only reason I sell them is because I'm buying something new and I don't want to have multiple watches fulfilling the same purpose. I buy watches to enjoy them and I accept that the money is gone at the time I buy them.

I'm this way with cars too. I buy them to keep them for a long time and only sell them when I start getting concerned about whether I'll make it to my destination. At that point, I don't get much money back for the car but it's fine as I'd made my peace with the price when I bought it.

I think Hartmut Richter put it well when stating that there are different types of watch buyers, and there's certainly space for all.


----------



## 54B

Kattywampus said:


> we all know we'd take a Daytona over a Sport any day of the week because of the branding and value retention.


I've ordered the Chronomaster Sport and can honestly say that I'd pick it over a Daytona any day. I've always felt that I _should_ like the Daytona but if I'm getting any Rolex it'd be a Milgauss or Explorer (or a Skydweller, but I can't afford that). Besides, screw down chrono pushers don't make any sense to me. My eggs would be half boiled before I can start the timer 

I'm fine being in the minority on this one and can understand why many people would prefer the Daytona if given the choice. Just wanted to say that there is a different view too.

I'm also hoping that I don't change my mind when the Chronomaster Sport arrives!


----------



## Kattywampus

GSNewbie said:


> You're wrong, I have already bought Rolex models in the last two years.
> So you can forget your note


Do tell! What's your secret? What Rolex models did you buy at a discount?


----------



## Kattywampus

54B said:


> I've ordered the Chronomaster Sport and can honestly say that I'd pick it over a Daytona any day. I've always felt that I _should_ like the Daytona but if I'm getting any Rolex it'd be a Milgauss or Explorer (or a Skydweller, but I can't afford that). Besides, screw down chrono pushers don't make any sense to me. My eggs would be half boiled before I can start the timer
> 
> I'm fine being in the minority on this one and can understand why many people would prefer the Daytona if given the choice. Just wanted to say that there is a different view too.
> 
> I'm also hoping that I don't change my mind when the Chronomaster Sport arrives!


Congrats 54B! A Sport is on my radar and I'm glad you're 100% happy with the decision to buy one. I was already eyeing an El Primero, but when the Sports came out it was perfection! Turns out the lack of a bezel was the missing link. Timing is bad for me, I had just bought an expensive watch so I'll just keep an eye out for them in the future.


----------



## yonexsp

I see conflicting information on Youtube form the usual Watch talking heads.

Is there or isn't there a waitlist now for the Chronomaster Sport? Have any even made it out into the wild yet?


----------



## GSNewbie

Kattywampus said:


> Do tell! What's your secret? What Rolex models did you buy at a discount?


If it were a secret, I certainly wouldn't tell it, because then it wouldn't be a secret anymore.
The problem is that too many people believe that they won't get a discount, so they put themselves on waiting lists and then happily buy standard goods at MSRP. If the buyer would behave here similar to Rolex and would agree, then Rolex would sit on the scrap metal and the prices would tumble. Well, it is probably difficult to convince so many people to act in unison. Whereas it has currently also worked on the stock exchange.
I have bought 4 sports models in the last two years, DJ, Sub, Yachtmaster 40 and Yachtmaster 2, on which I got a discount of 5-11% depending on the model.
Only what helps you now the information, if you do not get a discount?
Since this is a Zenith thread, we should now leave Rolex out of it. We can talk further via PN😉


----------



## fezz

> It's really a strange viewpoint. Why would you think a person buying from disposable income wouldn't care about whether his purchase retains value?





54B said:


> It's not strange to me. When buying a watch, future resale value isn't a factor in my selection process and I don't pay a second thought to it as I'm not think about selling it down the line. I'm thinking about wearing it, possibly forever.
> 
> I have sold watches before and have a track record of not getting a good price (I really should have held onto the steel Rolex I sold!). However, the only reason I sell them is because I'm buying something new and I don't want to have multiple watches fulfilling the same purpose. I buy watches to enjoy them and I accept that the money is gone at the time I buy them.
> 
> I'm this way with cars too. I buy them to keep them for a long time and only sell them when I start getting concerned about whether I'll make it to my destination. At that point, I don't get much money back for the car but it's fine as I'd made my peace with the price when I bought it.
> 
> I think Hartmut Richter put it well when stating that there are different types of watch buyers, and there's certainly space for all.


Well, I understand your position perfectly well, and also Hartmut's position about all people being different. We are actually in agreement.

The part that seemed strange to me was that the poster I quoted believes that people buying from disposable income don't care about whether the purchase retains value. That's certainly not true for me.

But more generally, I see that value-seeking personality trait as being completely independent from income source or wealth. People are just different in their preferences.


----------



## 8505davids

GSNewbie said:


> Anyone who buys a Rolex without a discount has only himself to blame. The argument is simply not conclusive, because it is apparently quickly forgotten that we are talking about luxury goods here. In my opinion, the current market situation, Corona, is being used by Swiss watch manufacturers to position themselves securely in the luxury sector, the greed for luxury knows no bounds and since those with money at Corona times, similar to before, lack nothing, the strategy is promising. Just Rolex shows how it goes, if you only have enough people who are interested in seeing watches as an investment. Is that where every watch manufacturer wants to go?!
> Should the customer here pave the way to the ever-increasing greed, especially in public companies to make the shareholders' pockets overflowing?!
> In Germany, the new model is sold at a 20% discount. I think that this is the targeted price of Zenith, since the other models on the market have positioned themselves but priced below.
> I buy watches according to my taste and Zenith has almost fully met it. However, I see no reason, even with Rolex, to pay the MSRP.


Some folks are only happy when they are paying lots of money for things - or so it seems anyway! Rolex and the like are indeed fortuntate to be able to keep their prices and demand high. Thats why their showroom windows are so big....


----------



## One-Seventy

fezz said:


> It's really a strange viewpoint. Why would you think a person buying from disposable income wouldn't care about whether his purchase retains value?


If you buy with a plan to sell, it wasn't disposable in the first place. "Disposable" isn't the same as reclaimable, so I'm using the right definition. It's different to wanting to buy something as cheaply as possible, for whatever reason.


----------



## One-Seventy

Kattywampus said:


> we all know we'd take a Daytona over a Sport any day of the week because of the branding and value retention.


I've no doubt I'd take a Daytona first, if it was given to me. I'd then instantly flip it for a _huge _amount of money, buy a Chronomaster and use the rest to take the family on holiday as soon as I could. Genuinely. Absolutely, genuinely. It really is possible not to much like something that other people covet.


----------



## One-Seventy

yonexsp said:


> Is there or isn't there a waitlist now for the Chronomaster Sport?


Whatever gets the YouTube influencer the most likes, comments, subscribes  💲


----------



## 54B

It's been a while since there's been a pic. I'm very happy with it in the metal. It wears quite a bit smaller than the 42mm Chronomaster EP even though it's thicker.


----------



## yonexsp

54B said:


> It's been a while since there's been a pic. I'm very happy with it in the metal. It wears quite a bit smaller than the 42mm Chronomaster EP even though it's thicker.


Is this yours?

Did you have any problem picking one up?

trying to find out of there is a waitlist locally, but no luck getting an answer yet.


----------



## 54B

yonexsp said:


> Is this yours?
> 
> Did you have any problem picking one up?
> 
> trying to find out of there is a waitlist locally, but no luck getting an answer yet.


It is indeed. I'm based in the UK and didn't have any trouble getting this. I ordered it via the Zenith website the day after it came out, though. I'm not sure what availability is like now. This is pure speculation on my part but I would be surprised if Zenith didn't try to meet the demand for the watch. It's not Patek!


----------



## J.B.

This new Zenith is stunning!!! Congrats!


----------



## One-Seventy

54B said:


> It's been a while since there's been a pic. I'm very happy with it in the metal. It wears quite a bit smaller than the 42mm Chronomaster EP even though it's thicker.


Lovely. Shades of the white-dialled Rainbow there. Glad to hear it feels smaller than the 42mm, which always felt just too unwieldy for me. The short lugs and smaller crystal with external, dark-coloured bezel all help. The crystal on the 42mm Chronomaster is massive!


----------



## petay993

I just returned my Black Dial to the UK AD who sourced it for me. 

The face was pretty stunning with the gloss dial and the 1/10th complication was interesting but I really didn't like the bracelet at all, particularly the fit and finish of the end links, they fell well short of what I would expect to find on an £8k+ piece. Putting it next to my 126610 was a chastening experience for the Zenith.

I could have fiddled around sorting out straps as an alternative but I decided to let someone else have a bite as opinions are very personal.


----------



## Kattywampus

Congrats! Love the colors of the sub dials. First pic I've seen of this watch in the wild on an owner's wrist.


----------



## fezz

One-Seventy said:


> If you buy with a plan to sell, it wasn't disposable in the first place. "Disposable" isn't the same as reclaimable, so I'm using the right definition. It's different to wanting to buy something as cheaply as possible, for whatever reason.


Yes, but I wasn't talking about buying with a plan to sell. I simply want good value for my purchases.


----------



## One-Seventy

petay993 said:


> I just returned my Black Dial to the UK AD who sourced it for me.
> 
> The face was pretty stunning with the gloss dial and the 1/10th complication was interesting but I really didn't like the bracelet at all, particularly the fit and finish of the end links, they fell well short of what I would expect to find on an £8k+ piece. Putting it next to my 126610 was a chastening experience for the Zenith.
> 
> I could have fiddled around sorting out straps as an alternative but I decided to let someone else have a bite as opinions are very personal.


The standard pin-hole clasp seems like a missed opportunity, so I'd have skipped the bracelet and gone with the strap. Chronomasters look best on straps .

There was nothing wrong with the bracelet on the existing Chronomaster. Like the watch head, it was of bulletproof construction and finely finished, with every link screwed, right up to the endlinks. The butterfly clasp isn't for everyone, but it was very comfortable. I don't know why they didn't just reuse this.


----------



## petay993

With hindsight I would have been better ordering the strap version but unfortunately my AD only had the bracelet version. 

£8,300 is a lot of money and the bracelet end links just didn't look good enough to my eye, it was the first thing I noticed.


----------



## kak1154

54B said:


> It's not strange to me. When buying a watch, future resale value isn't a factor in my selection process and I don't pay a second thought to it as I'm not think about selling it down the line. I'm thinking about wearing it, possibly forever.
> 
> I have sold watches before and have a track record of not getting a good price (I really should have held onto the steel Rolex I sold!). However, the only reason I sell them is because I'm buying something new and I don't want to have multiple watches fulfilling the same purpose. I buy watches to enjoy them and I accept that the money is gone at the time I buy them.
> 
> I'm this way with cars too. I buy them to keep them for a long time and only sell them when I start getting concerned about whether I'll make it to my destination. At that point, I don't get much money back for the car but it's fine as I'd made my peace with the price when I bought it.
> 
> I think Hartmut Richter put it well when stating that there are different types of watch buyers, and there's certainly space for all.


Do you pay full MSRP for your cars, too?

It's not about value retention, it's about paying fair market value. I don't want to overpay for stuff, disposable income or not.


----------



## 54B

kak1154 said:


> Do you pay full MSRP for your cars, too?
> 
> It's not about value retention, it's about paying fair market value. I don't want to overpay for stuff, disposable income or not.


I don't buy cars new but that's because I can get a much better car / spec second hand. You could say the same for watches but I'm less fussy about what I want from a watch.

I get not wanting to overpay. I'm not saying people have to buy watches at MSRP or even that I always do. I'm only saying that I don't find it objectionable to pay MSRP where the watch is in budget and, for me, the watch is good enough for the money. When thinking about that latter point, resale value doesn't come into it because (I) I expect to keep the watch for a while, and (II) it's disposable income and I'm not asking myself if I need to resell it at short notice. Touch wood I don't end up in a place where that situation changes!

So, I agree with you about not wanting to overpay but I don't default to requiring a discount or being concerned about future market value. I'm not saying that's what you do or what anyone else does - I'm only explaining my point of view.


----------



## jamztio

54B said:


> It's been a while since there's been a pic. I'm very happy with it in the metal. It wears quite a bit smaller than the 42mm Chronomaster EP even though it's thicker.


Congrats! I'm eyeing the white dial as well. May I ask if the white dial is glossy or matte? I know that it's glossy on the black one.


----------



## petay993

The white dial is matte.


----------



## jamztio

petay993 said:


> The white dial is matte.


Thanks! Man, I prefer glossy actually. Dilemmas dilemmas. It's unfortunate that there's no Zenith AD in the city I'm currently at.


----------



## 54B

jamztio said:


> Congrats! I'm eyeing the white dial as well. May I ask if the white dial is glossy or matte? I know that it's glossy on the black one.


As @petay993 says, the white dial is matte. It's a fairly pure matte white, though, which makes it bright. I wavered between the black and white dials and without having seen them in the metal I can't say which is better. I'm not even sure that is the right way to look at it - it's more about which watch suits your purposes. I think the glossy black dial is gorgeous but generally I prefer lighter dials and have a glossy dark faced watch (JLC Polarise Mariner Date) so went for the white one.



petay993 said:


> I really didn't like the bracelet at all, particularly the fit and finish of the end links, they fell well short of what I would expect to find on an £8k+ piece. Putting it next to my 126610 was a chastening experience for the Zenith.


Re the endlinks, I am satisfied with the endlinks on my Chronomaster Sport. The edges of the endlinks are slightly lower than the lugs but I think that works as they are concave and the centre polished link is slightly raised. If the watch was meant to look like it had an integrated bracelet, then I would have expected the endlinks to sit flush with the lugs.

I saw a picture of the Watch Advisor strap, which had a noticeable gap between the endlink and lug. I'm not sure if @petay993's was like that but I don't have that gap on mine. I prefer the clasp on the normal Chronomaster bracelet but that's not a deal breaker for me. I like having the bracelet but my watch will spent most of its time dressed down on a strap (at the moment either an Erika's Original MN or Watch Bandit grey sailcloth).


----------



## jamztio

54B said:


> As @petay993 says, the white dial is matte. It's a fairly pure matte white, though, which makes it bright. I wavered between the black and white dials and without having seen them in the metal I can't say which is better. I'm not even sure that is the right way to look at it - it's more about which watch suits your purposes. I think the glossy black dial is gorgeous but generally I prefer lighter dials and have a glossy dark faced watch (JLC Polarise Mariner Date) so went for the white one.


Yeah you're right. I do have 2 black dialed chrono already. Hence I intend to go with the white one for this Zenith. But I do like glossy finish instead. So it's best indeed to see both in the metal first. Unfortunately with current situation, I can't travel yet.


----------



## ccie37569

Interesting


----------



## petay993

54B said:


> As @petay993 says, the white dial is matte. It's a fairly pure matte white, though, which makes it bright. I wavered between the black and white dials and without having seen them in the metal I can't say which is better. I'm not even sure that is the right way to look at it - it's more about which watch suits your purposes. I think the glossy black dial is gorgeous but generally I prefer lighter dials and have a glossy dark faced watch (JLC Polarise Mariner Date) so went for the white one.
> 
> Re the endlinks, I am satisfied with the endlinks on my Chronomaster Sport. The edges of the endlinks are slightly lower than the lugs but I think that works as they are concave and the centre polished link is slightly raised. If the watch was meant to look like it had an integrated bracelet, then I would have expected the endlinks to sit flush with the lugs.
> 
> I saw a picture of the Watch Advisor strap, which had a noticeable gap between the endlink and lug. I'm not sure if @petay993's was like that but I don't have that gap on mine. I prefer the clasp on the normal Chronomaster bracelet but that's not a deal breaker for me. I like having the bracelet but my watch will spent most of its time dressed down on a strap (at the moment either an Erika's Original MN or Watch Bandit grey sailcloth).


I am glad you are happy with your Chronomaster Sport. They are undoubtedly a handsome watch and the one I received had a lovely liquid black dial.

Maybe I got a "Friday Afternoon" or first off the line piece, the main issues being a small but visible gap between the end link and bracelet which let the light through ? and a clear difference in brushing between the SEL and case lug. The fact the watch arrived without leather hang tag case and instruction manual pushed me in to a quick decision to send it back. I am the first to admit I am very fussy though so what I find unacceptable many would probably never notice.

I do wish Zenith every success with this release, it is a very competitive sector and they have priced quite confidently. Will be interesting to see residuals as the watches become established.


----------



## 54B

petay993 said:


> Maybe I got a "Friday Afternoon" or first off the line piece, the main issues being a small but visible gap between the end link and bracelet which let the light through 🙁 and a clear difference in brushing between the SEL and case lug. The fact the watch arrived without leather hang tag case and instruction manual pushed me in to a quick decision to send it back. I am the first to admit I am very fussy though so what I find unacceptable many would probably never notice.


My leather hang tag was under the watch. I found it was odd that the tag wasn't on the watch but that's not a big deal. Moe disappointing was that the bracelet hadn't been sized for me even though I entered my wrist size when ordering the watch. I've given up trying to faff around with two screwdrivers and have resigned myself to getting a Bergeon vice.


----------



## petay993

54B said:


> My leather hang tag was under the watch. I found it was odd that the tag wasn't on the watch but that's not a big deal. Moe disappointing was that the bracelet hadn't been sized for me even though I entered my wrist size when ordering the watch. I've given up trying to faff around with two screwdrivers and have resigned myself to getting a Bergeon vice.


My bracelet was sized, maybe that's when the hangtag went walkabout. It certainly wasn't under the watch or anywhere else in the packaging.

Those double bracelet screws are an absolute mare! Particularly on an £8k piece where you want to avoid scratches

If I do re order down the line I think I will go white/strap as I think that will make a stunning sports watch for the Summer.


----------



## listorene12

J.B. said:


> https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210203/07fda7c1f6632606f2e522b0602143af.jpg[/I[QUOTE="54B, post: 52979882, member: 904178"]
> It's been a while since there's been a pic. I'm very happy with it in the metal. It wears quite a bit smaller than the 42mm Chronomaster EP even though it's thicker.
> 
> [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210203/07fda7c1f6632606f2e522b0602143af.jpg


Nice acquisition the white dial is certainly the one to get.


----------



## One-Seventy

petay993 said:


> I do wish Zenith every success with this release, it is a very competitive sector and they have priced quite confidently. Will be interesting to see residuals as the watches become established.


That is the most interesting thing about the watch, for most stock (or watch, whatever) market enthusiasts these days.

Almost all of the discerning watch cognoscenti financial investor chat is about value retention and market rates. No-one cares about the watch itself - movement schmovement.


----------



## petay993

One-Seventy said:


> That is the most interesting thing about the watch, for most stock (or watch, whatever) market enthusiasts these days.
> 
> Almost all of the discerning watch cognoscenti financial investor chat is about value retention and market rates. No-one cares about the watch itself - movement schmovement.


I cared enough to order one! Regrettably it didn't quite meet my quality expectations and was returned. I have a great deal of respect for the El Primero movement and its merited place in horological history.

Unfortunately Zenith as a brand has not managed to establish a coherent long term product strategy although they are now taking tentative steps in the right direction. This means, if you care to consider how wisely you are spending your hard earned cash, that residuals have been traditionally poor to verging on terrible. Therefore it will always have to be a consideration for most people being asked to part with £8k plus for a wristwatch however pretty or feature laden.


----------



## Outtatime12

White dial all the way! Love the contrast with the sub dials and bezel


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## 8505davids

Just seen wrist pics of the black version over on TZ-UK and got to say it looks great


----------



## Hartmut Richter

petay993 said:


> I cared enough to order one! Regrettably it didn't quite meet my quality expectations and was returned.


That is unfortunate. Would you care to share with us what was substandard? I am not doubting your word but it may help others to find out about it - and it would be good feedback for the brand (who do not post here but are known to monitor this forum, and probably others like it).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## petay993

Hartmut Richter said:


> That is unfortunate. Would you care to share with us what was substandard? I am not doubting your word but it may help others to find out about it - and it would be good feedback for the brand (who do not post here but are known to monitor this forum, and probably others like it).
> 
> Hartmut Richter


A beautiful looking watch face but......

I wasn't happy with the bracelet end links, specifically the brushed finish which on my early example, did not really match the brushing on the lugs very well. It looked a little fuzzy. 
In comparison with my Submariner, the SEL to lug fit tolerances were poor for the price imo of course and I am the first to admit I am very fussy but to me this part of the bracelet felt a little cheap. The rest of the bracelet was fine with a nice chamfering to the outer edges. Obviously the clasp is a bit old school in terms of adjustment but I knew that prior to ordering.
I could also see a gap between the end link and the case on one side sufficient to be able to see the springbar and allow a little light through. 
The watch featured on TZUK looks better in this respect.

The fact that the watch was delivered missing some documents and tags prompted me to return it to my AD. It sold again 24 hours later as there is a lot of noise around the release here in the U.K.

I think it will do well because the design is superb but at £8,300 Uk RRP it is up against some very well made watches and in this case, my example fell a little short.


----------



## One-Seventy

petay993 said:


> I cared enough to order one! Regrettably it didn't quite meet my quality expectations and was returned. I have a great deal of respect for the El Primero movement and its merited place in horological history.
> 
> Unfortunately Zenith as a brand has not managed to establish a coherent long term product strategy although they are now taking tentative steps in the right direction. This means, if you care to consider how wisely you are spending your hard earned cash, that residuals have been traditionally poor to verging on terrible. Therefore it will always have to be a consideration for most people being asked to part with £8k plus for a wristwatch however pretty or feature laden.


Only if they're spending money at risk that they might need back at some point. Most people treat it as disposable, burned, gone up in smoke. Only investors and flippers (who may also still be watch enthusiasts, but they're flippers) fret over the inadequacy of returns on investment.

That said, it does sound like you were sold a pre-production unit, or something that hadn't been through enough QC. Usually Zeniths don't have a problem with quality, only secondary market value .


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Many thanks for giving us your experience. It should help both Zenith and potential owners here - the latter will know what to look out for in the shop!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## 54B

I finally resized the bracelet on my Chronomaster Sport(double screws are not much fun!). Here's a photo. Personally, I'm happy with the endlinks. I'm not sure if there are variable experiences or if I'm missing something.

I expect that I'll wear this more on a strap but it's nice to have the option of the bracelet.


----------



## jamztio

petay993 said:


> Unfortunately Zenith as a brand has not managed to establish a coherent long term product strategy although they are now taking tentative steps in the right direction. This means, if you care to consider how wisely you are spending your hard earned cash, that residuals have been traditionally poor to verging on terrible. Therefore it will always have to be a consideration for most people being asked to part with £8k plus for a wristwatch however pretty or feature laden.


True, but the same can be said to most other brands, except the usual suspects. That's why I always buy preowned whenever possible, the first owner got hit by the depreciation. Problem solved! 😜 Patience is the only thing I have to manage.


----------



## jamztio

One-Seventy said:


> That is the most interesting thing about the watch, for most stock (or watch, whatever) market enthusiasts these days.
> 
> Almost all of the discerning watch cognoscenti financial investor chat is about value retention and market rates. No-one cares about the watch itself - movement schmovement.


That's unfortunately the case these days. I really dislike those "watch guys" who only buy watches based on their resale value. Other watches are like nothing to them. In my home country for example, all they talk/hype about is Rolex and PP Nautilus, Aquanaut. It's sickening and ruining the hobby for me.


----------



## Alfa2600

jamztio said:


> That's unfortunately the case these days. I really dislike those "watch guys" who only buy watches based on their resale value. Other watches are like nothing to them. In my home country for example, all they talk/hype about is Rolex and PP Nautilus, Aquanaut. It's sickening and ruining the hobby for me.


I agree it dose get really boring sometimes, but why would you really dislike those "watch guys"? 
They enjoy the same hobby as you only have a different perspective. 
If what other people think really bothers you that much you either need to find another hobby or just execpt that people are different get over it and move on.


----------



## jamztio

Alfa2600 said:


> I agree it dose get really boring sometimes, but why would you really dislike those "watch guys"?
> They enjoy the same hobby as you only have a different perspective.
> If what other people think really bothers you that much you either need to find another hobby or just execpt that people are different get over it and move on.


Well because mostly they're immediate flippers or only buy the hyped watches and then sell again later for profit, typical cold investors, not hobbyists. It really ruins the watch scene. That's why I use 'watch guys'. Of course they're entitled to it since it's their money but I'm just not a fan of it.
I'm not against Rolex or anything since I own a few myself. But I'm not selling them even though there's big green dollars to be made. I trully love them.

This gets really frustrating particularly when this 'problem' spills over to other smaller brands like Kurono and Ming.

And I did accept this as the current reality already, that's why I'm still in the hobby and here on WUS .
Oh I miss the good old days where resale value and profit aren't the main topic.


----------



## petay993

I share some of your frustration but for me it was really a case of;

"Does this look/feel like an £8,300 watch" and in my case the answer was no, so it was returned.

I appreciate, as we are seeing, that others have a different view or experience.


----------



## jamztio

petay993 said:


> I share some of your frustration but for me it was really a case of;
> 
> "Does this look/feel like an £8,300 watch" and in my case the answer was no, so it was returned.
> 
> I appreciate, as we are seeing, that others have a different view or experience.


Yes and there's nothing wrong with that. Please don't take it as I'm attacking you.
I also feel Zenith did a bit of a cop out with this release on the bracelet with a rudimentary clasp. Should have added an easy adjustment system in this day and age.


----------



## faapaa

Alfa2600 said:


> I agree it dose get really boring sometimes, but why would you really dislike those "watch guys"?
> They enjoy the same hobby as you only have a different perspective.
> If what other people think really bothers you that much you either need to find another hobby or just execpt that people are different get over it and move on.


They´re not watch entusiasts, they love the smell of money

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Alfa2600

jamztio said:


> Well because mostly they're immediate flippers or only buy the hyped watches and then sell again later for profit, typical cold investors, not hobbyists. It really ruins the watch scene. That's why I use 'watch guys'. Of course they're entitled to it since it's their money but I'm just not a fan of it.
> I'm not against Rolex or anything since I own a few myself. But I'm not selling them even though there's big green dollars to be made. I trully love them.
> 
> This gets really frustrating particularly when this 'problem' spills over to other smaller brands like Kurono and Ming.
> 
> And I did accept this as the current reality already, that's why I'm still in the hobby and here on WUS .
> Oh I miss the good old days where resale value and profit aren't the main topic.


I do get where your coming from, but as I get older (older not OLD ?) I care less what other people do. People will always chase money, especially a quick buck. Personally I feel the constant talk of frustration flippers grays investment etc only elevates the situation.
There are plenty of great watches out there for us enthusiasts to enjoy, so I wouldn't let flippers etc tarnish the hobby you love ?


----------



## One-Seventy

Alfa2600 said:


> I agree it dose get really boring sometimes, but why would you really dislike those "watch guys"?
> They enjoy the same hobby as you only have a different perspective.
> If what other people think really bothers you that much you either need to find another hobby or just execpt that people are different get over it and move on.


I get on with plenty of financial investors; they just don't share the interest in timekeeping, only financial productivity and accretive margins on asset disposal. I worry about returns too of course - it's the prime consideration when it comes to my pension, for example. Hobbies? No, I have nothing in common with people who buy and sell watches primarily for money. They're no different to shopkeepers in that sense.


----------



## Technarchy

faapaa said:


> Strange how focus is on discounts on most brands , instead of focusing if it´s nice watch. Except for Rolex, where its acceptable to pay double or even triple MSRP
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Just because a fool says something is acceptable doesn't make it so. And I will always seek the discount irrespective of what I am buying. That is just smart.


----------



## Newnice

I love these new Zenith chronographs, but their pricing structure doesn't seem right. There is no way this watch needs to cost $10,000. I understand why they want to sell it for $10,000, and why some people will pay $10,000, and also that many competing Swiss chronographs also charge a similar amount, but I don't see how a stainless steel watch from a second-tier brand with a movement that would have been cutting-edge in 1972 makes sense at $10,000. 

But no-one is forcing me to buy it, right? And yeah, great case, cool movement, and a heck of a watch that I would be proud to own and wear.


----------



## oso2276

DesmoIsland said:


> A Daytona is $13,800, and you will have to pay a lot more than that to secure one.


That unicorn does not exit. A Daytona at Retail price is an urban leyend 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk


----------



## One-Seventy

Newnice said:


> I love these new Zenith chronographs, but their pricing structure doesn't seem right. There is no way this watch needs to cost $10,000. I understand why they want to sell it for $10,000, and why some people will pay $10,000, and also that many competing Swiss chronographs also charge a similar amount, but I don't see how a stainless steel watch from a second-tier brand with a movement that would have been cutting-edge in 1972 makes sense at $10,000.
> 
> But no-one is forcing me to buy it, right? And yeah, great case, cool movement, and a heck of a watch that I would be proud to own and wear.


It's not clear - is it an outdated movement that was current in 1972, or cool?


----------



## One-Seventy

oso2276 said:


> That unicorn does not exit. A Daytona at Retail price is an urban leyend


Exactly so. Still, for the $35,000 this steel watch actually costs normal people, rather than grey dealers, the AD's creditors and friends'n'family, you do get better endlinks


----------



## Newnice

One-Seventy said:


> It's not clear - is it an outdated movement that was current in 1972, or cool?


It's a cool movement, for sure.

But automatic chronographs were cutting edge in the 1970s, as were hi-beat movements, so to have both in one watch would have been cutting edge in 1972. Today, it's still cool, but almost in a sort of retro way, more of a clever piece of manufacturing than a technical triumph.

It's a nice watch, for sure. But I just don't see it being a $10,000 watch. Maybe it will sell at that price right now, because the world is crazy for steel cased mechanical chronographs of Swiss origin, but eventually supply will catch up to that demand and competition will bring prices down.


----------



## WTSP

Newnice said:


> I love these new Zenith chronographs, but their pricing structure doesn't seem right. There is no way this watch needs to cost $10,000. I understand why they want to sell it for $10,000, and why some people will pay $10,000, and also that many competing Swiss chronographs also charge a similar amount, but I don't see how a stainless steel watch from a second-tier brand with a movement that would have been cutting-edge in 1972 makes sense at $10,000.
> 
> But no-one is forcing me to buy it, right? And yeah, great case, cool movement, and a heck of a watch that I would be proud to own and wear.


I agree that $10K is pricey, and that this model will likely be discounted. However, one thing that many posters here may not be fully taking into account is that this caliber 3600 has a foudroyante complication, which is to say a second hand that moves really fast and measures to less than a second. The Daytona is just a standard chronograph. What is the MSRP for chronographs that offer this function?

Graham Foudroyante Split-Second Chronograph, MSRP $$17,900, on offer at $7,900
HABRING² SS Foudroyante, MSRP ~$8,000
CORUM Admiral's Cup Leap Second Foudroyante Chronograph, MSRP $22,000, on grey market at $4,950
Girard Perregaux has multiple Rattrapante Foudroyante models, but it has that second split second complication and often comes in precious metal cases so hard to compare to the Zenith. However, the non PM versions do seem to go for about $7-8k used. MSRPs were definitely in the five figures.

So basically it seems to me that Zenith has been wise in avoiding the pitfall of pricing their pieces like Graham or Corum did. Those two brands fell into the Invicta pricing strategy trap. Bare in mind that the Habring is based on a Valjoux, but isn't even a chronograph. It also doesn't have the various additional features of the caliber 3600 (high beat rate, longer power reserve, silicium parts, etc.). At $10k I think Zenith has stretched a bit, but if they do discount it will be in the 20% range. They'll avoid the 60%-70% slaughter that other brands are subject to. The Chronomaster Sport is closer to "right pricing" than most watches in this crazy market.


----------



## Newnice

WTSP said:


> I agree that $10K is pricey, and that this model will likely be discounted. However, one things that many posters here may not be fully taking into account is that this caliber 3600 has a foudroyante complication, which is to say a second hand that moves really fast and measures to less than a second. The Daytona is just a standard chronograph. What is the MSRP for chronographs that offer this function?
> 
> Graham Foudroyante Split-Second Chronograph, MSRP $$17,900, on offer at $7,900
> HABRING² SS Foudroyante, MSRP ~$8,000
> CORUM Admiral's Cup Leap Second Foudroyante Chronograph, MSRP $22,000, on grey market at $4,950
> Girard Perregaux has multiple Rattrapante Foudroyante models, but it has that second split second complication and often comes in precious metal cases so hard to compare to the Zenith. However, the non PM versions do seem to go for about $7-8k used. MSRPs were definitely in the five figures.
> 
> So basically it seems to me that Zenith has been wise in avoiding the pitfall of pricing their pieces like Graham or Corum did. Those two brands fell into the Invicta pricing strategy trap. Bare in mind that the Habring is based on a Valjoux, but isn't even a chronograph. It also doesn't have the various additional features of the caliber 3600 (high beat rate, longer power reserve, silicium parts, etc.). At $10k I think Zenith has stretched a bit, but if they do discount it will be in the 20% range. They'll avoid the 60%-70% slaughter that other brands are subject to. The Chronomaster Sport is closer to "right pricing" than most watches in this crazy market.


If you had asked me twenty years ago if a Rolex Daytona was worth $10,000, I would probably have said that it was not, for much the same reasons. The past twenty years would have proved me dead wrong. The market demand for Swiss mechanical chronographs has proven insatiable.


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## Hartmut Richter

Newnice said:


> If you had asked me twenty years ago if a Rolex Daytona was worth $10,000, I would probably have said that it was not, for much the same reasons. The past twenty years would have proved me dead wrong. The market demand for Swiss mechanical chronographs has proven insatiable.


If you ask me now whether I think that the Rolex Daytona is worth 10K, I would say No! I am aware that people are willing to pay that much and more but I would say that they either have temporarily pureed their brain or they are only looking for the added cash in the medium to long term future. Realistically, there is nothing in that watch that you can't have elsewhere rather cheaper. Except the price rise (see Type 2 people above)!

Hartmut Richter


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## faapaa

Why are you comparing split second chronographs with the Zenith?, rattrapante/split seconds usually has 2 chronograph functions


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

faapaa said:


> Why are you comparing split second chronographs with the Zenith?, rattrapante/split seconds usually has 2 chronograph functions


Fine, that's true. It seems all the chronographs I quoted feature both a foudroyante and split-second function, so one complication more that the Zenith caliber 3600. I guess all those brands (with the exception of GP which is probably a module) use some version of the Valjoux, possibly one upgraded by La Joux Perret like in the Hublot HUB 44. In any case, my point still stands. Many people comparing the Chronomaster Sport to other chronographs like the Daytona don't put any emphasis on this being a foudroyante/flying seconds movement, which is more exotic and typically higher priced that regular chronographs.


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## FirstF80InSpace

Once the early adopters have scooped up the initial batch, I'm willing to bet you'll see AD's offering this watch at 15% or higher discount off MSRP.


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## One-Seventy

WTSP said:


> Fine, that's true. It seems all the chronographs I quoted feature both a foudroyante and split-second function, so one complication more that the Zenith caliber 3600. I guess all those brands (with the exception of GP which is probably a module) use some version of the Valjoux, possibly one upgraded by La Joux Perret like in the Hublot HUB 44. In any case, my point still stands. Many people comparing the Chronomaster Sport to other chronographs like the Daytona don't put any emphasis on this being a foudroyante/flying seconds movement, which is more exotic and typically higher priced that regular chronographs.


Quite true; most of the comparisons are about how many social media likes you can get (and monetise), and what sort of profit margin the savvy investor can make on instant asset disposal. Movement schmovement. On some watch/finance/speculator forums, those the only - _only _- considerations when looking at alternative to the Holy Daytona.


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## One-Seventy

FirstF80InSpace said:


> Once the early adopters have scooped up the initial batch, I'm willing to bet you'll see AD's offering this watch at 15% or higher discount off MSRP.


Wait for the early adopters to whine and bleat if the price does come down - as if that's the first time that's ever happened in the history of the world - and loudly swear off Zenith forever, to the largest possible social media audience!

Discounts on this model will end up the same as other similar priced chronos from Omega, IWC and JLC. Not exactly front-page news .


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## GSNewbie

I had the opportunity to look at and try on the new Chronomaster Sport from Zenith.
I have a 19cm wrist, so the watch already looks smaller.
The workmanship was good, but not comparable to GS, AP or JLC. But better than Omega, or Glashütte Original - at least that's my experience with div. models of these manufacturers. 
The presented model was visually and technically flawless. The date switched about 5 minutes before twelve o'clock. The deviation was between 6 and 8 seconds plus, depending on the position.
What really grounded me was the nevertheless sober-looking bracelet made of rubber.
The clasp is o.k. but the strap does not fit in this price range.
Unfortunately, I could not test the watch on the stainless steel bracelet.
All in all, a beautiful watch, great function and flawless workmanship, even with the assistance of a magnifying glass.
Compared with other watch models in this price league, disregarding the function of Zenith Chronomaster Sport, in my opinion the price is set about 2 thousand too high.
I think with discount it should then fit.
The Zenith could not completely convince me also because of the low warranty period.
Which is why it is now a JLC Mariner😉


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## WTSP

GSNewbie said:


> The Zenith could not completely convince me also because of the low warranty period.


Good point about the warranty, it should be considered, especially considering that Zenith is NOT best in class for servicing.

One-Seventy, you make very good points, totally correct IMO.

I was just checking out the price of the current IWC Portuguese Chronograph out of interest. With steel strap the MSRP is CHF 8,500, which is ~USD $10,500. I think that's pretty absurd, especially given that the movement isn't really anything special. It's a cost effectively produced in-house without the special features of the Zenith 3600. Definitely going to be discounted by 20%-30%, as is industry standard for these second line non-Rolex brands.
IW371617-Portugieser Chronograph


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## GSNewbie

Funny thing this caliber from IWC, which is not really a Real Inhouse Movement as far as I know😉
In this special case, maybe Zenith is too cheap


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## Ghost410

I keep debating ordering one when it’s available on their site but this thread mentioning it’s overpriced and will be discounted in the future keeps deterring me. Guess I’ll just wait to handle it in the metal at my local AD


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## palletwheel

20% discount was back in the day (late 90s - I'm dating myself here) par for the course. Rolex and Patek maybe a little less, like 10% - 15%, but it was usual. You knew you actually got a real deal if you could push it to 25%. Why is it today that everyone is allowing themselves to forget the "suggested" in MSRP? All watches are price inflated just for this reason. None of them are "worth" their list price. Only Rolex and maybe Patek managed to seemingly escape gravity, but you can be sure like all fads it will come down to earth at some point. Anyone who follows them will crash even sooner. That's one reason why I like Zenith, the management has the good sense to recognize this. They'll be around for a long time.


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## One-Seventy

GSNewbie said:


> Funny thing this caliber from IWC, which is not really a Real Inhouse Movement as far as I know?
> In this special case, maybe Zenith is too cheap


Your JLC chrono is around two grand more, which gives you the extra warranty and adjustable clasp - Zenith's biggest omission, I think. Here in the UK the JLC is also a solid £2,000 dearer than the Zenith. Ignoring discounts for a moment (always a challenge these days), Zenith's value proposition is line-ball then with the others you mention - being finer than an Omega or IWC at least in terms of movement, but not up at the AP level. I don't know about GS, but they're often known for punching about their weight in terms of finishing.

I will say that the current Chronomaster at £6,500, and the time-only Polaris at exactly the same price, looked about the same in terms of finishing when I looked closely. The Zenith's strap is a little less refined, thicker with a rubber inner lining, but perhaps that suits a sports watch. Both made by Camille Fournet, anyway.


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## GSNewbie

The Polaris Marine Date is not a chronograph😉
I do have a IWC Yachtclub, caliber 89361,(IW390507) which is in my opinion an excellence caliber, nothing like the IW371617 from the Portugieser Chronograph😎
The fact that the rubber wristbands come from one manufacturer does not really say anything about the quality.
Take a look at Omega. The strap on the Seamaster 300 just looks cheap. If you take the one from the PO or AT, there are worlds in between.
Especially with the Yachtclub, the visual and qualitative impression separates both chronographs (Chronomaster Sport and Yachtclub) very strongly from each other. This is not due to the size😉
I would vote between AP and GS actually from the case for GS. 
With the caliber and the bracelet, however, the world looks different, where AP is clearly 2:0 ahead.
If you compare the current MSRP of the two manufacturers, GS is really cheap.
Zenith is really a good manufacturer from my impression, but the strap does not do justice to the watch. I heard similar things about the metal bracelet.
IWC is clearly ahead here.
Of course, one must also evaluate watch manufacturers under consideration of achievable discounts.
However, I am not continued that no Rolex is worth the called MSRP, the value arises only in the minds, where currently many believe that the watches are worth it.


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## WTSP

GSNewbie said:


> The Polaris Marine Date is not a chronograph😉
> I do have a IWC Yachtclub, caliber 89361,(IW390507) which is in my opinion an excellence caliber, nothing like the IW371617 from the Portugieser Chronograph😎
> The fact that the rubber wristbands come from one manufacturer does not really say anything about the quality.
> Take a look at Omega. The strap on the Seamaster 300 just looks cheap. If you take the one from the PO or AT, there are worlds in between.
> Especially with the Yachtclub, the visual and qualitative impression separates both chronographs (Chronomaster Sport and Yachtclub) very strongly from each other. This is not due to the size😉
> I would vote between AP and GS actually from the case for GS.
> With the caliber and the bracelet, however, the world looks different, where AP is clearly 2:0 ahead.
> If you compare the current MSRP of the two manufacturers, GS is really cheap.
> Zenith is really a good manufacturer from my impression, but the strap does not do justice to the watch. I heard similar things about the metal bracelet.
> IWC is clearly ahead here.
> Of course, one must also evaluate watch manufacturers under consideration of achievable discounts.
> However, I am not continued that no Rolex is worth the called MSRP, the value arises only in the minds, where currently many believe that the watches are worth it.


I have long lusted after the IWC Yacht Club, and the Portuguese line in general. After a decade of owning a Big Pilot though, I've come to the conclusion that IWC isn't at the top of the movement design game. The accuracy of my single spring barrel version of the movement is not good (more than 10 and sometimes up to 20 seconds per day variation depending on the level of power reserve). No wonder they moved to a twin barrel version.

I recently listened to Watchuwant discussing various movements versus the El Primero, including the IWC caliber 89361. At the 39 minute mark, their watchmaker states that he often sees metal shavings in the movement when servicing them. That sounds concerning to me. I presume you haven't had that experience? Do you have a version with ceramic Pellaton winding parts rather than the original metal ones?


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## GSNewbie

I am sorry that your watch is so inaccurate.
I bought my IWC Yachtclub IW390507 early last year. The installed caliber 89361 has no Pelatton ceramic parts. I believe that these are not previously installed in this caliber family.
My watch runs pretty much exactly between 2 and 3 seconds a day, even when I use the chronograph function sometimes. I am satisfied with this performance.
IWC gives the average daily rate deviation as 0-7 seconds. Within this range, the movement should move, if not, in the first months after purchase (only about 8 weeks wear and observe) is then gladly adjusted on request.
My watch didn‘t need an adjustment since I bought it.
Whether something has been saved in recent years, I can not say.
But probably that there was a change from 89360 to 89361. Had me interested before buying.
I'll take a look at the video tomorrow.
Hope my answer helps.😉

Update Today 25.02.21,
I have watched the video and cannot confirm that there is any dirt buildup, or removal of metal in the caliber, or on the rotor here.
It is difficult to judge which watches the people here in the video get on the table, their history is also not known. Therefore, I would be cautious to conclude from an uncertain number of cases that there is a fundamental problem with the caliber, which it is definitely not. That's my experience.
I also find it questionable why one now wants this component in ceramic, because one assumes that it is better and already successfully does its job in the caliber family 52000?
On the basis of the Lange watches, you can see that there is also perfection without ceramics.


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## NTJW

So Zenith is now considered as a second-tier brand? A bit sad for a company that makes excellent movements.


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## GSNewbie

I don't think anyone here wants to say that. 
Also, everyone has individual ideas about quality and quality appeal. I know some people who have bought the watch and are happy.
The function and movement of the Chronomaster Sport are in some ways a unique selling point.
With the bracelets, however, they should quickly improve something, does not fit in my opinion to the rest.
Also, you can not really compare the IWC caliber 89361 with that of Zenith. Subjective impressions are probably also decisive here and in my opinion, the IWC caliber is clearly ahead.


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## Ghost410

NTJW said:


> So Zenith is now considered as a second-tier brand? A bit sad for a company that makes excellent movements.


I'm curious where most people feel Zenith falls in the horology heirarchy.


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## WTSP

Ghost410 said:


> I'm curious where most people feel Zenith falls in the horology heirarchy.


What is a high-end watch?
another useless watch ranking 2020


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## Ghost410

Got the call to check one out in the metal today. Unfortunately due to work I wasn’t able to make it. Hopefully I’ll get the opportunity soon. The good thing is it appears they’re being delivered!


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## One-Seventy

NTJW said:


> So Zenith is now considered as a second-tier brand? A bit sad for a company that makes excellent movements.


?

One person was of the opinion that it's a second-tier brand (whatever that is). So when you ask "is Zenith now considered second-tier", the answer is yes - by _that _person. It doesn't then become universal, yes?

Do _you _consider Zenith a "second-tier" (or indeed, any tier) brand?


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## One-Seventy

Ghost410 said:


> I'm curious where most people feel Zenith falls in the horology heirarchy.


Personally I couldn't give a **** what other people think about hierarchies. I cared about hierarchies in the playground when I was 11, which is why "Top Trumps" was such a popular child's game.

Amongst self-described experts (i.e., consumers), Zenith is known for its famous chrono movement, being so long-lived and one of the first - if not the first - of its kind. But Zenith has had less success with other ranges, and has gone through fairly wild periods, design-wise, making watches that haven't aged well in terms of design. However, value retention is the most important characteristic to many consumers, so the intrinsic qualities of the watch are generally ignored in favour of data from watchcharts.com. It doesn't matter how beautifully put together a Zenith Captain is if price discovery shows negative market sentiment and falling returns.

However, amongst actual experts (i.e. watchmakers), they are known for being very well made and finished with complex movements that can be a pain to service but are a level above most others. A watchmaker I know recently spent a month servicing the 400-odd parts in one of these:


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## GSNewbie

In principle, I would agree with your execution.
But the time a watchmaker needs to service a Zenith caliber says little about the quality of the caliber, but only about whether a manufacturer sets certain barriers in the respective caliber to fix them by themselves.
By the way, nice photo😉


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## Ghost410

Damn that movement is good looking


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## One-Seventy

GSNewbie said:


> In principle, I would agree with your execution.
> But the time a watchmaker needs to service a Zenith caliber says little about the quality of the caliber, but only about whether a manufacturer sets certain barriers in the respective caliber to fix them by themselves.
> By the way, nice photo😉


Oh sure, but watchmakers don't continued to build movements with 300+ parts for over 50 years without them being _pretty good_. The parts count of course increases exponentially the amount of time required to service it. (And the EP has had a reputation for inefficiency of build - multiple screw dimensions for example.)

But... it's the only one of the first three still in production, and is perfectly capable of supporting modern accooterments if needed. Its beat rate is above anything else other than GS, not even JLC manages a foudroyante (or even semi-foudroyante) on the main chrono seconds hand, to my knowledge.

I'm glad Zenith fixed the lack of hacking and slightly underwhelming PR in the meantime.


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## Ghost410

SO! How many of these have made it into consumers hands so Far? Where are all the pictures?


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## WTSP

Funny how so many self-styled watch experts can blurt out opinions without doing much research or going more than skin deep into a topic. For instance, here's a Youtuber who's pushing the "Daytona rip off" angle on the new Chronomaster without any mention of the Zenith's functions. He says "it has the El Primero in it, so that's nice". It's a tenth of a second foudroyante! Does that count for nothing?! No, since it has a black ceramic bezel just like a Daytona. But he doesn't even seem to know what the movement does.






I'm guessing he's never seen a Zenith Rainbow or De Luca II, but learning about those would take research. Nobody has a monopoly, let along a trademark, on the steel chrono with ceramic bezel. Tag Heuer has been doing it for years as well. I'm glad to see that the media buzz is working out in Zenith's favour.


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## zigg

That's one thing, WTSP. But then there is this thing now that you do to get audience engage - commenting, sharing etc to boost your views and therefore revenue (most of them have something to sell you so its a win win for them). They will say something that will spark a discussion or, for example misspell a watch reference or something similar. Then a flood of people will start correcting them bumping their stats. See what is happening on Instagram? Many posts will have 'what happened here', 'what do you think ...' etc etc to get people engaged. And the more ridiculous thing you post the more engagement you will have. That's why such videos may just be planned to be that way.


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## WTSP

I'm sure that's true, artificial controversy can go a long way. I pondered whether to actually include the link, I figured my post would be somewhat incomplete without it. I have to say that while I think this video from the Youtuber in question was off point and poorly thought out, I have enjoyed some of his other content, like his piece on Eterna. I wish he'd also brush up on his French pronunciation, but that's a different story.

In any case, the old adage of "there's no such thing as bad publicity" seems to be ringing particularly true for Zenith these day. Still haven't had the chance to try one of these on.


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## One-Seventy

WTSP said:


> Funny how so many self-styled watch experts can blurt out opinions without doing much research or going more than skin deep into a topic. For instance, here's a Youtuber who's pushing the "Daytona rip off" angle on the new Chronomaster without any mention of the Zenith's functions. He says "it has the El Primero in it, so that's nice". It's a tenth of a second foudroyante! Does that count for nothing?! No, since it has a black ceramic bezel just like a Daytona. But he doesn't even seem to know what the movement does.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing he's never seen a Zenith Rainbow or De Luca II, but learning about those would take research. Nobody has a monopoly, let along a trademark, on the steel chrono with ceramic bezel. Tag Heuer has been doing it for years as well. I'm glad to see that the media buzz is working out in Zenith's favour.


That channel pumps Rolex for investors. It took a shoeing for being uninformed and cheaply unpredictable in its review of the Zenith, a watch that actually appears to have given the brand a real fillip this year. Oopsie!


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## NightScar

Zenith Chronomaster Sport in Rose Gold


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## zigg

Thinking of it now, the only channels (to my knowledge) that misrepresented the Chrono Sport were heavy Rolex endorsers. Fortunately, there were some channels that made a really nice and informed content.


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## One-Seventy

zigg said:


> Thinking of it now, the only channels (to my knowledge) that misrepresented the Chrono Sport were heavy Rolex endorsers. Fortunately, there were some channels that made a really nice and informed content.


I assume they were taking orders from "head office".


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## zigg

Head office - is that the one with green or grey doors?


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## One-Seventy

zigg said:


> Head office - is that the one with green or grey doors?


Several colours, but green springs to mind - on several fronts!


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