# Blue El Primeros



## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

Happy having the Blues!


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Very nice set! I only have one watch with a blue dial and it is a pretty standard Seiko 5. 

Thanks for sharing!

Dan


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Ha! Terrific! :-! You're building a very fine stable of Primeros. Looks like the A 788 turned out to be a good one. When did the Espada come along?


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## el segundo (Aug 22, 2011)

Great collection. Haven't ever heard of someone building a collection on the basis of colour but it's a nice idea - did you set out to do it that way or was it just how it turned out?


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Nice quartet Chris. Has anyone but Zenith ever made a watch a turquoise-ish dial. It's certainly distinctive.

Dave


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

If you're collecting the blue dialled El Primeros, you're still missing one of the most famous ones: the "Television"!

(Ref. 01.0200.415)

Hartmut Richter


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Hartmut Richter said:


> If you're collecting the blue dialled El Primeros, you're still missing one of the most famous ones: the "Television"!
> 
> (Ref. 01.0200.415)
> 
> Hartmut Richter


WUS Zenith Forum - not just enabling, but outright incitement!;-)


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

Didn't start out to go blue, and I have a number of other EPs in black, grey, silver and "cappuccino" (A385). Some other blues I've left alone as they add nothing else (e.g. A783 looks a lot like the Espada, same dial and case, but no day, month and moonphase). As for the "Television", I don't really like it much and am thus loth to spend the $$$ being asked for a watch that by Zenith standards is ubiquitous (4000+ produced). My 'Blue Grail' is the A3818, but one in dreadful shape sold recently for way too much, and Lou seems unreasonably tenacious about hanging on to his own gorgeous example!:-d

Chris


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

Gombrich said:


> Nice quartet Chris. Has anyone but Zenith ever made a watch a turquoise-ish dial. It's certainly distinctive.
> 
> Dave


The turquoise A782 invariably attracts comment when I wear it - one of the few watches I have that does. My white-dialled DeLuca (black registers) earned a compliment once, but it was from a young man who I suspect mistook it for a Rolex Daytona!


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

John Chris said:


> Didn't start out to go blue, and I have a number of other EPs in black, grey, silver and "cappuccino" (A385). Some other blues I've left alone as they add nothing else (e.g. A783 looks a lot like the Espada, same dial and case, but no day, month and moonphase). As for the "Television", I don't really like it much and am thus loth to spend the $$$ being asked for a watch that by Zenith standards is ubiquitous (4000+ produced). My 'Blue Grail' is the A3818, but one in dreadful shape sold recently for way too much, and Lou seems unreasonably tenacious about hanging on to his own gorgeous example!:-d
> 
> Chris


nice collection, I agree that the blue TV would be good in the quartet.


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

sempervivens said:


> nice collection, I agree that the blue TV would be good in the quartet.


But that would make it a quintet! :-d


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Good luck in your search for an A3818. They don't come up very often as you know.

In the meantime a blue De Luca would fit the theme.










Dave


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

Ah yes- a beauty!


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## Rickr23 (May 29, 2008)

Not vintage but blue all over.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Of course there is one EP there that doesn't quite belong in the quartet of vintage Primero's.
It would have to make space for a vintage.
You can start another quartet with that one, of not so vintage Primero's 

The rarest vintage 'blue' EP would probably be the 01.0140.415. That would also be nice! (But as LouS says : who am I fooling? They are all nice.)

BTW I don't remember, is your Espada one of the first series (A7817) or 01.0040.418 ? Did you post more pics of that ?



> But that would make it a quintet!


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## kubama (Mar 26, 2011)

Gombrich said:


> In the meantime a blue De Luca would fit the theme.
> Dave


as well as Blue Rainbow


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

kubama said:


> as well as Blue Rainbow


Now you're really making me blue - but I do have this blue-ish Rainbow (ref. 02.0471.400/24):


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

sempervivens said:


> BTW I don't remember, is your Espada one of the first series (A7817) or 01.0040.418 ? Did you post more pics of that ?


SV, I posted a pic of the Espada before in my thread "EP Moonphases" - another 'subcollection' of mine. Pic is much the same as above. But I am not sure how to distinguish an A7817 from a ref. 01.0040.418. Can you please enlighten me? I will then try to figure it out and add pics if helpful.

Cheers,

Chris


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

John Chris said:


> SV, I posted a pic of the Espada before in my thread "EP Moonphases" - another 'subcollection' of mine. Pic is much the same as above. But I am not sure how to distinguish an A7817 from a ref. 01.0040.418. Can you please enlighten me? I will then try to figure it out and add pics if helpful.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Chris


mmm I wish I had 'subcollections' of EP Moonphases b-)

The difference between the A7817 and 01.0040.418 is mainly that the latter has a plain caseback and the model number on the back.
The former has a caseback with Zenith star and should have a serial number.

The dial is another indication (only less certain because dials are more frequently replaced). 
The A7817 probably originally had a star logo on the dial.
It seems that yours has a star logo on the dial. 
In fact yours may be the only one I have seen with the star logo.
b-) 
So depending on the back of your watch, it may be an A7817 : that would be conclusive I think.
Looking forward to the pics!


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



sempervivens said:


> The difference between the A7817 and 01.0040.418 is mainly that the latter has a plain caseback and the model number on the back.
> The former has a caseback with Zenith star and should have a serial number.
> 
> The dial is another indication (only less certain because dials are more frequently replaced).
> ...


SV, I attach further photos, showing the star on the dial and the stylized ZZ (star) logo on the crown and caseback. There is also an 'E' series serial number on the back which has been polished almost to oblivion. So I think this must be an A7817. Thanks for the info!


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> SV, I attach further photos, showing the star on the dial and the stylized ZZ (star) logo on the crown and caseback. There is also an 'E' series serial number on the back which has been polished almost to oblivion. So I think this must be an A7817. Thanks for the info!


That is very nice, looks all original |> b-)


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

I dont know for sure and i not convinced so far. Im not saying its not true. Heres my take on this. Since i have yet to see that number (a7817) on any Espada caseback so far. I have looked in every watch forum and every pic on the internet and found no one thats been able to post that magic pic. I passed on Espadas because of the star case back because.... the numbers are polished of all of them. The Astronic uses the star back and has the same ref style numbering system adopted by Movado in 1970 but has its own (01.0010.436.) Acknowledged in the (Movado History). Movado history also acknowledged the merger which is that Zenith bought Movado. Bear with me so far as i have alot of info so far. Without Movado we would not have the Espada. Why, Zenith with the purchase of Movado recieved the triple calendar moon phase design. Its very ingenious and is removed off the dial plate by 4 screws as one assembly. Truly awsome. No Astronic if its original will have a Zenith clasp or Zenith crown, merger or not. It uses the (M) logo on the crown. I think watchmakers used the Zenith crown because the Movado ones are even rarer. Google the pics of both and you will get a good eye for this. Espada wise, watch when you buy one. My belief is 300 for the Espada. Why the Italian version has different info than all the other publications seems strange to me. A red flag. The Astronic i think might be rarer yet because i think that some of them were turned into Espadas. It can be easily done. The cases, crystals, pushers are exactly the same as well as the bracelets. All the hands are exact between the two and the tachy bezels also. I will post some pics within the hour of my Espada and Astronic in my profile as well as movement shots under the dial of the calendar assembly. Check them out.


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

True my caseback has been polished, but the case number ('E' series) is still discernible. As far as I know, none of the El Primeros had the model number inscribed in the back until the reference numbering system changed in 1972. So you won't find A7817 because it was never there. You also won't find A384, A385, A386, A781, A782, A788, A3817, A3818, etc., on the back of any of those models. All those pre-1972 models have the case number instead - 3 numbers, a letter (D or E), and 3 more numbers. In 1972 the change occurred and 1 (and only 1) model, produced that year in a run of 500, has both the old case number and the new reference number - the 01.0140.415 (see my thread on that watch and Semper Viven's sticky on the steel models).

Fascinating stuff about the Movado inheritance, thanks!

Chris


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Chris, you Espada is in excellent shape. Wow. The fact that Daytonas sell for 10g and up without all the complications makes me a solid believer that the Espada is way more valueable. Its so rare its unknown to the world so hold on. It would take 10g for me to even consider letting it go.


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> As far as I know, none of the El Primeros had the model number inscribed in the back until the reference numbering system changed in 1972. So you won't find A7817 because it was never there. You also won't find A384, A385, A386, A781, A782, A788, A3817, A3818, etc., on the back of any of those models. All those pre-1972 models have the case number instead - 3 numbers, a letter (D or E), and 3 more numbers. In 1972 the change occurred and 1 (and only 1) model, produced that year in a run of 500, has both the old case number and the new reference number - the 01.0140.415 (see my thread on that watch and Semper Viven's sticky on the steel models).
> 
> Fascinating stuff about the Movado inheritance, thanks!
> 
> Chris


Exactly right about the pre-1972 reference numbers - they never appeared anywhere on the watch - pointless to build a case around them not being there.

Little correction - Espada late reference is 01.0140.418

As for the Movado stuff, I'll need a little more convincing. But I'll be very satisfied if there is significant similarity between old Movado mechanisms and that of the 3019PHF - looking forward to pix.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Chris, i posted pics in my profile. Check them out if you get the chance. The Movado history by Fritz von Osterhausen is a good read. On page 194 it discusses the number system adopted by Movado from Zenith which is not in Rosslers book. From 1971 to 1983 a 8 digit system was adopted. The first 2 digits are the (01)- is stainless steel. The second set (0010) of 4 numbers, the first 3 indicate case model and the 4th is the dial. The last (.436)(Astronic) is the caliber which translates to 3019 PHF for USA market. Check out the pics in my profile if you have never seen the under dial side if the Espada.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Movements are exactly the same except for jewel count and rotor signature.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



31 Jewels said:


> Movements are exactly the same except for jewel count and rotor signature.


 The dials between the Astronic and the Espada are exact except the hour markers and the colors of the sub dials. The Astronic are deep blue as the Espadas are more sharkfin blue. The Moon dial itself is even matching in color to the sub dials. I wouldnt have believed it until i had them right next to each other. One other cool thing you might not have known. While i was driving the sun reflected off the dial of my Espada and onto the door panel of my car which reflected the Zenith logo on the crown. The style that mine uses. If you look at the dial the 10, 2, 4 and 8 hour marker are angled. That wasnt by accident, its something very cool and thought out . Which is what makes the Espada such a special watch. The Astronic does not use the same hour indexes and does not employ this cool trick. The Zenith logo cant be reflected with a flash light, only the sunlight.


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



LouS said:


> Little correction - Espada late reference is 01.0140.418


 Lou, I was referring to my recent acquisition with the blue bezel, the 01.0410.415, which is the only model to have both sets of numbering on the same case. But I'm not in the least defensive.

Chris


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> Lou, I was referring to my recent acquisition with the blue bezel, the 01.0410.415, which is the only model to have both sets of numbering on the same case. But I'm not in the least defensive.
> 
> Chris


Oop, my misunderstanding


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Lous, you have to unlock or change your public information about the Espada for now untill we get to the bottom of this. We dont want people out there to get possibly the wrong information about the Espada watch. Case back pics are key and alot of people in the world are counting on us for accurate information. We cant refer to the Pfeiffer-Belli pictures in Rosslers book because a (case back) is not shown to reference collectors. And until i can see proof, A7817 is (01.0040.418) and that number appears on the majority of almost every Espada you will find photographs of on the worldwide web.


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

I don't quite see what's in dispute here.. It seems there are enough examples of the "Star Caseback/Star on the Dial" version for it to be pretty certain that they are A7817s. I also haven't seen anything that would make me change my view that the later 01.0040.418 had a plain caseback (with the ref. engraved on it) and square logo on the dial. As has been pointed out above the old style model references never appeared on the caseback or anywhere else (Chris's 01.0410.415 being the exception that proves the rule).

Dave


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



> ...My belief is 300 for the Espada. Why the Italian version has different info than all the other publications seems strange to me...


Let's not rush here...

The information that *300 Espada's were made around 1971 with ref. A7817 and 500 more Espada's were made around 1973-75 with ref. **01.0040.418 *does not come from the Italian translation of Roessler's book.

But rather, this information came from the Zenith archives as a reply to a request for information from somebody in Italy.

In the same reply by Zenith it was mentioned that the only number on the caseback of the A7817 is a serial number (xxxExxx), whereas the 01.0040.418 shows its model number.

This is exactly as one would expect it to be.

The question how the Italian forum O & P found out about the Espada production numbers was confirmed by our forum member Nicola (who is also a member of O & P) in a post on this forum : vintage Zenith Espada chronograph. In # 6 Nicola even shows a scan of the original e-mail from Zenith. Why that still doesn't seems to convince you is a mystery to me 

If you have more information about Movado production numbers for the Astronic or the Datron or other models such as the 'TV' model etc, I would find that interesting. But apparently this information for Movado production numbers is not available.


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Agree fully with Dave and sempervivens. As for me, I've muddied the water by making my own mistake talking about reference numbers. The post 1972 reference number is of course 01.0040.418.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> SV, I attach further photos, showing the star on the dial and the stylized ZZ (star) logo on the crown and caseback.
> There _is also* an 'E' series serial number on the back which has been polished almost to oblivion*._ So I think this must be an A7817. Thanks for the info!


Puoi dirmi dove si trova nella foto la lettera "E" del numero seriale di cassa ? 
Nelle foto non riesco a vederla.:-(

Do you can tell me where the letter " E" of the serial number of case found in the photo ? 
In the photo I do not succeed to see it.:-(


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



nicola1960 said:


> Puoi dirmi dove si trova nella foto la lettera "E" del numero seriale di cassa ?
> Nelle foto non riesco a vederla.:-(
> 
> Do you can tell me where the letter " E" of the serial number of case found in the photo ?
> In the photo I do not succeed to see it.:-(


Nicola, it is not visible in the photo. Unfortunately, because of the amount of polishing, it is difficult to see unless light is shone on it at the right angle. You will have to trust me on this one. If it would advance our learning to give you the complete case number, I will happily do so.

Non è visibile nella foto. Purtroppo, a causa della quantità di lucidatura, è difficile da vedere a meno che la luce sia lucidata su esso all'ad angolo retto. Dovrete fidarseli di su questo. Se avanzi il nostro apprendimento dargli il numero completo di caso, agirò in tal modo felicemente.

Chris (hoping the on-line translator is reasonably accurate)


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Really interesting stuff here - I'm amazed at the depth of knowledge being carted around! As for the production numbers, I agree with sempervivens that, first and foremost, we should trust Zenith on this. It's not as if they had trashed their records (cf. Gruen, Breitling, etc....)

Hartmut Richter


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> Nicola, it is not visible in the photo. Unfortunately, because of the amount of polishing, it is difficult to see unless light is shone on it at the right angle. You will have to trust me on this one. If it would advance our learning to give you the complete case number, I will happily do so.
> 
> Non è visibile nella foto. Purtroppo, a causa della quantità di lucidatura, è difficile da vedere a meno che la luce sia lucidata su esso all'ad angolo retto. Dovrete fidarseli di su questo. Se avanzi il nostro apprendimento dargli il numero completo di caso, agirò in tal modo felicemente.
> 
> Chris (hoping the on-line translator is reasonably accurate)


Eureka ! ;-)

Zenith Espada 1° serie, with mutilated case, ref. A 7917, 1971.



Serial number of case xxxExxx.

**

**

*P.S. 
Pubblicherò il risultato anche su Orologi e Passioni come esempio di collaborazione tra i nostri due Forum. Grazie 
I will publish the result also on Orologi & Passioni for example of collaboration between ours two Forum. Thanks
*


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

This one appears to have its day and month in German. So all 300 were not in Italian after all! Nicola, I will see if it is possible to photograph my case number, to allow an intercontinental 'Eureka!"

Buona salute a voi!


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Hey, gang. Im not trying to wiz in anyones pot here. Hope you see the passion bleeding through here. Why do you suppose Rossler went through all that work and left that (300, 500 info out of his book) when he had access to it while composing the book? I think he would have seen that info while researching production numbers. The lack of it though doesnt really change the game considering if you have a Espada, you have a loaded Daytona movement and a watch way rarer, period. Look at ebay. There is 400 Daytonas for sale at any given time. Grab the Espadas while you can because your gonna see them at 8-10 thousand maybe more. Torneo lists the Espada in their price book 3 years ago between 5-7 thousand. Im still kinda sideing with Hartmut on the 300. Hope i didnt lose any friends here. Regards 31


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Roessler does not refer to a number for the 01.0040.418 as distinct from the A7817, but seems to lump them together in a production run of 300 - see pp. 240-241 and 244. I don't think the Rolex Daytona offers any comparison. Rolex has its own niche not transferrable to any other manufacturer! The current market for Espadas would appear to be between $5k and $6k, judging from recent sales.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Have you guys watched the official youtube video for Zenith Watch Co? Why do you suppose the Espada wasnt shown in its history. The first automatic chrono grand complication not there? When i bought my Rolex Sea Dweller, i considered a Daytona. They are just sooo everybody has one that I just couldnt get past the Zenith history with the movement business. Dont get me wrong, they produce the finest watch cases in history, hell there such an awesome company that they will let you take a bench test for free to become certified. But 8-10 grand, not even a calendar. I would by another Espada and hope that the market will swing towards them like what The Fast and Furious movie did for the Toyota Supra Twinn Turbo.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

The main reason why I would never, *ever *wear a Daytona (and probably any Rolex either) is that it (the Daytona) is artificially limited to feed the hype. Rolex could easily make rather more SS Daytonas - they would just have to plug more movements in steel cases instead of "bicolor" or gold cases. Compare that to Zenith: there are good reasons why the El Primero was the first automatic chronograph in watch history, yet only the third into the shops. The same reason that the early El Primeros were available only in homeopathic numbers. Even at the height of its production and staffing (and that was definitely not the sixties and early seventies), Zenith has never been a company the size of Rolex or Omega (or Seiko, or the combined Breitling/Heuer/Buren/Dubois-Depraz consortium that made the Cal. 11). They just couldn't make more EPs even if they had wanted to - they would have had to expand first. So, the SS Daytona is definitely artificially limited, but the early EPs are not. Guess which one has more inherent value once you deduct the hype factor?! ;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Right on H. I bought my Sea Dweller for 4 reasons. The first is it was a tool that was designed to (save you life.) The best in my opinion. The second was i would service my own before any customers. The third is the Daytona movement el primero oops did i say that is the hardest most intricate and time consuming one to do. Ive been there done that with all the bells and whistles in the Astronic. Plus the forth is they have mad profit margin (for me) when they are vintage. Wait 20 years, stir and collect the cash please. Especially original owner ones with the original window sticker, tool kit and owners manual. Just like cars. LOL 31


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> This one appears to have its day and month in German. So all 300 were not in Italian after all! Nicola, I will see if it is possible to photograph my case number, to allow an intercontinental 'Eureka!"
> 
> Buona salute a voi!


Eureka bis ;-)

Dalla collaborazione O. & P. e W.U.S.: Zenith Espada 1° e 2° serie.


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Thank you, Nicola, and congratulations, that is a very fine thread and presentation. More credit should have gone perhaps to Chris and Dave (Gombrich) who own respectively an A7817 and 01.0040.418 Espada and who helped to find out the differences between the two models.

As far as 'Roessler' is concerned, IMHO he simply forgot to mention several production numbers, which he should have included. The production number for the 01.0040.418 Espada is not the only one missing in the book; the production numbers for at least two other models are missing as well, most notably the A3822 'Diver' and the 01.0180.434 'Movado Zenith'.

With your help Nicola it was possible to solve the puzzle for the Espada production numbers.

On the other hand maybe we should mention the suspicion that actually a few more Espada chronographs have been created, with the use of left over spare parts and movements.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



sempervivens said:


> ... More credit should have gone perhaps to *Chris and Dave (Gombrich)* who own respectively an A7817 and 01.0040.418 Espada and who helped to find out the differences between the two models...


Ops... chiedo scusa per l'omissione.:-( Ringrazio gli amici Chris e Gombrich. ;-)
Ops&#8230; I ask excuse for omission:-(. Thanks Chris and Gombrich. ;-)


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

No problem, Nicola - we do it for love, not glory!
- lo facciamo per amore, non gloria!
Chris


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> No problem, Nicola - we do it for love, not glory!
> - lo facciamo per amore, non gloria!
> Chris


Well put sir.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> No problem, Nicola - we do it for love, not glory!
> - lo facciamo per amore, non gloria!
> Chris


;-)

Other photo 1* series, A 7817.


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Bellissima!


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*




nicola1960 said:


>


So, as it happens, I became the owner of this watch which you've pictured, Nicola (Matthew Bain, right?) And it's a corker.




























Here is the back, however.










Ought this to have the NATO star back with the case number? Replaced dial? Replaced caseback? The manufacture emptying out parts bins? Any clue in the bracelet?

Also, I'm wondering about this bevel on the side of the piece.










It is not present on all of the Primeros in this case. Is it a late feature? An Espada feature? A figment of some case-polisher's imagination?


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Nice acquisition, Lou! Yet mysteries abound! The first one shown by Nicola (post 18 above) had a thoroughly mangled case that had become round!. Yours appears to have what we thought was an A7817 dial (with star logo) with a later case - or at least case-back - for the 01.0040.418 - plus an even later but lovely Zenith bracelet. As for the beveled edge, the same exists on my Defy-cased 01.0140.415, but not on my Espada or A782! Which logo is on the crown?


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Square logo on the crown.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



John Chris said:


> Nice acquisition, Lou! Yet mysteries abound! The first one shown by Nicola (post 18 above) had a thoroughly mangled case that had become round!. Yours appears to have what we thought was an A7817 dial (with star logo) with a later case - or at least case-back - for the 01.0040.418 - plus an even later but lovely Zenith bracelet. As for the beveled edge, the same exists on my Defy-cased 01.0140.415, but not on my Espada or A782! Which logo is on the crown?


...Come spesso avviene in casa Zenith, nella fase di transizione, è possibile, tuttavia, che i quadranti della prima serie siano stati utilizzati anche nelle casse della seconda serie...

Dalla collaborazione O. & P. e W.U.S.: Zenith Espada 1° e 2° serie.

....As often it happens in Zenith house, in the phase of transition, is possible, however, that the dials of the first series have been used also in the cases of the second series&#8230;


----------



## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

Lou, nice Espada, in the usual cracking condition of course. Yours is identical to mine except for the star on the dial instead of the square logo. The bracelet on mine is the same model as yours except that yours seems to have a textured finish on the small centre-links but mine has a plain finish all over. I still contend that this bracelet came as standard on at least some of the later Espadas as I have seen enough with it for it to be more than a coincidence. The bevelled case edge is definitely the way it should be.


















The bevel is also present on the smaller but similar case on my Defy Gauss.


















Dave


----------



## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Dave, I agree that the lateral facet is a factory element in the case design, and you have demonstrated it is not unique to the Espada. Is that Gauss and early or late model, i.e. case number on the back, or model code?

With respect to the bracelet, I prefer it to the one made up of plates of battleship armor (which does have visual impact, I admit), not least because of the genius spring-loaded clasp that NSA has. I wonder that the design is not more commonly found these days.


----------



## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

LouS said:


> Is that Gauss and early or late model, i.e. case number on the back, or model code?


The Gauss has the case number on the "Star" caseback, not the model number. As far as I am aware these Defy Gauss's all pre-date the xx.xxxx.xxx numbering system.

Dave


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Congratulations Lou.

Have you seen a movement pic ?

The bevelled edge is original, as can be seen in this ad :









And yet, many have lost the sharp edge, because of wear and sometimes repolishing, you know how it goes.

But yours is another one in 'NOS' condition.

I'm saying 'another one' on purpose because I've seen several and this is what raised my suspicion that maybe a few extra Espada's have been built outside of the official production run.

A dial and tachymeter and hands in perfect condition : ok, these are probably service dials from Zenith. The original dial was not the best in the sense that the lettering may fade a bit, the blue colour of the subdials can wear off, etc. But Zenith has all the parts for sure.

However I'm seriously expressing some doubts here whether Zenith themselves has produced some extra Espada's. How else to explain that there are such perfect Espada's to be found - the condition is even better than NOS ? And who else than Zenith themselves can build them so perfectly?

I hope I am wrong and yours is simply a NOS Espada 01.0040.418.

But let me show you another one, which was recently (this month) sold by a dealer in Germany.

The eyebrow-raising part is not the just the perfect condition of the watch, but especially the movement cal. 41.0.

If the watch were really 'NOS' from the 1970's, how is it possible that it has a movement that was only made in the 1980's ?


----------



## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

Very interesting, SV. You had me looking for the JAXA before my coffee this morning!

Mine turns out to be a simple 3019 PHF with Swiss Made C under the balance









Could an alternate explanation for the condition be that they made close to the Quartz Apocalypse and either went unsold, or were put back in their boxes once owners got shiny new quartz watches. Or simply babied because so expensive?

Follow-up question regarding the side facet - do you think it was present on ALL similar cases, or there was a version without? It seems improbably to me that one could consistently polish away that much metal in so many examples.


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

LouS said:


> Very interesting, SV. You had me looking for the JAXA before my coffee this morning!
> 
> Mine turns out to be a simple 3019 PHF with Swiss Made C under the balance
> 
> ...


That is great Lou. So yours is the same as Dave's then. Congratulations. 
However don't tell me you made a big purchase like this one without seeing the movement first :rodekaart
:-d

And please allow me to say that it is not yet a conclusive proof that your watch was made in the 1970's : isn't it so that even some early Chronomasters from the 1990's still have a 3019 PHF inside? But at least the opposite - a later maufacture date - hasn't been proven either.

Mind you even with a cal. 41.0 or 410 it would of course still be a great watch but I am sure you prefer it 'all original'.

I was tempted to buy the one I showed, but then I found out about the movement.

Would you have bought it anyway ? Can you explain how come it has a cal. 41.0 inside ?

The side facet : yes, I would say it must have been present on all similar cases. Looking at the few samples of watches in the overview I would say they all have it, it is just not as sharp any more as when they were new. You seem to say you have seen many examples without : could be, maybe because of wear, maybe because it is not always very clear in the picture, and IMO this kind of bevelled edge is also easily polished away.

To follow up on the Novavit SA bracelet, that must be a fine alternative for the other one. Maybe customers in the 1970's were given the choice? NSA bracelets are simply great, so light and strong and beautiful and then you have the added comfort of the spring clasp. On the other hand the springs in the clasp are the vulnerable part of the bracelet: I have one where the spring has simply 'disappeared', and another one where it required quite some additional work for the watchmaker to clean the springs. b-)


----------



## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

sempervivens said:


> However don't tell me you made a big purchase like this one without seeing the movement first :rodekaart


I would have looked at the movement before I bought it for sure. But after seeing your post, I went to my picture library and couldn't find an image of it. Suddenly, doubt seizes the brain! And the members of the household wait impatiently for their breakfast while I gather my camera and a JAXA.....


----------



## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

This thread (hey, give me credit for starting it!) sent me back to my collection again to look at the facet issue. My conclusion is in accord with sv's opinion - it is original and was part of all similar cases. Although the cases of the A384 and 385 are slightly different, they are close enough, and mine both have a very clear facet to the case sides of the same type. I've already noted that my 01.0140.415 has it, and on reflection (or lack thereof), it is now evident to me that my A782 and A7817 do too, but both of those cases have been polioshed to the point where it is not so immediately obvious.

Interesting that all the cal. 41.0 movements I've seen (including my own) are 17 jewel versions - regardless of the language on the dial (i.e. even where not apparently destined for the USA).


----------



## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

Chris, i just noticed looking at my Espada pics that the Rossler pic of the Espada has the 4 cornered star on the crown. If its the infamous a7817, shouldnt it have the crown that yours has? Because that Rossler pic shows the little star on the dial. Thanks. 31


----------



## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

Yeah, 31, good spot - it should have the 4-point star on the crown, but many early EPs have lost their original 4-star crowns. A substituted 4-cornered logo crown, which Zenith still produces (or at least supplies), is found on many of the "A-series" (to coin a phrase) EPs. The 'A', of course, stood for steel (Acier). Probably should call them 3 or 7 series EPs. Incidentally, for whatever reason, Rossler didn't seem to differentiate between the A7817 and the 01.0040.418. His book is excellent, but not, I think, inerrant.


----------



## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

John Chris said:


> Yeah, 31, good spot - it should have the 4-point star on the crown, but many early EPs have lost their original 4-star crowns. A substituted 4-cornered logo crown, which Zenith still produces (or at least supplies), is found on many of the "A-series" (to coin a phrase) EPs. The 'A', of course, stood for steel (Acier). Probably should call them 3 or 7 series EPs. Incidentally, for whatever reason, Rossler didn't seem to differentiate between the A7817 and the 01.0040.418. His book is excellent, but not, I think, inerrant.


 That happened to the Astronic model too. The little M logo on the crown was probably impossible to find for the repairman too. Im thinkin thats why those got stuck with the Zenith ones. I wonder if Movado would even stock the crown, but i doubt it. Its like callin a Ford dealer for a Model A part. As soon as i can break away to get some phone time, im going to set up Zenith parts account. Every watch company has a certain policy for this but i think theres a very good chance i can get one. Rolex is a real pain for this but parts can be had. Sometimes a bench test is required as well as a business license which i have. If it works out, ill try to see if i can get you one at cost if your interested. Ill keep you posted. 31


----------



## gingi310 (Feb 29, 2008)

Speak of the devil: Movado Astronic (Zenith Espada) HS 360 Super Sub Sea | eBay


----------



## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

gingi310 said:


> Speak of the devil: Movado Astronic (Zenith Espada) HS 360 Super Sub Sea | eBay


 Gingi, thanks for posting that. i checked it out. Its in very nice condition. All the hands look to be in very good condition, 17 jewel movement appears to be accurate. Case back and numbers are correct. There is only two things i would suggest to this seller. The first would be to get the correct Movado clasp, and to post a decent picture of the side of the case so we can see the condition of the pushers for the calendar and moonphase. If the pushers look good, and i can show you bad to compare for the honesty of the thread. If this seller has the (original movado clasp), or someone buys it that has the clasp this guy needs. Its gonna sell for the price. Someones going to get lucky to have it. The last one that sold on ebay sold for $6,400 USD. That (one) had the wrong (crown) but it had the correct Movado clasp. According to Movado records, the Astronic was made for 10 years. From 1970 to 1980. Im going to take an educated guess that (i cant proove) but it might be a possibilty to why there is a claimed 100 made. There is a certain type of person that bought Movado watches. Everyone i talk to knows what a Movado watch is and they know because of one important model... The Museum model put them on the map. A hand full of people that could afford the Espada and the Astronic considered at the time to be the highest grade most complicated watch a man could buy WHO liked these companies. How much do you think they cost new? I dont know but it was alot of green. The speculation is maybe that 10 made a year to customers who ordered them, knew about them and could have afforded them. They went into collections right away and the thousands of guys never even knew about them until the last couple of years. Other than the Polyplan watch, check them out they are really cool, especially the movement, the Astronic is the rarest and most valueable. And gold ones were made too. I cant wait untill someone posts a pic of that one. 31


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

View attachment 543916


31 Jewels said:


> Gingi, thanks for posting that. i checked it out. Its in very nice condition. All the hands look to be in very good condition, 17 jewel movement appears to be accurate. Case back and numbers are correct. There is only two things i would suggest to this seller. The first would be to get the correct Movado clasp, and to post a decent picture of the side of the case so we can see the condition of the pushers for the calendar and moonphase. If the pushers look good, and i can show you bad to compare for the honesty of the thread. If this seller has the (original movado clasp), or someone buys it that has the clasp this guy needs. Its gonna sell for the price. Someones going to get lucky to have it. The last one that sold on ebay sold for $6,400 USD. That (one) had the wrong (crown) but it had the correct Movado clasp. According to Movado records, the Astronic was made for 10 years. From 1970 to 1980. Im going to take an educated guess that (i cant proove) but it might be a possibilty to why there is a claimed 100 made. There is a certain type of person that bought Movado watches. Everyone i talk to knows what a Movado watch is and they know because of one important model... The Museum model put them on the map. A hand full of people that could afford the Espada and the Astronic considered at the time to be the highest grade most complicated watch a man could buy WHO liked these companies. How much do you think they cost new? I dont know but it was alot of green. The speculation is maybe that 10 made a year to customers who ordered them, knew about them and could have afforded them. They went into collections right away and the thousands of guys never even knew about them until the last couple of years. Other than the Polyplan watch, check them out they are really cool, especially the movement, the Astronic is the rarest and most valueable. And gold ones were made too. I cant wait untill someone posts a pic of that one. 31


 Pic of the Movado clasp


----------



## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



nicola1960 said:


> Eureka ! ;-)
> 
> Zenith Espada 1° serie, ref. A 7917, 1971.


Eureka Bis :-d 
Zenith Espada 1° serie, ref. A 7917, 1971, case n° 323 E XXX


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



nicola1960 said:


> Eureka Bis :-d
> Zenith Espada 1° serie, ref. A 7917, 1971, case n° 323 E XXX


Thanks for the nice pics Nicola.

The small red (instead of blue) hand in the hour counter looks suspicious 
:think:

And isn't the correct reference A7817 instead of A7917? I guess this is just a typo ;-)

But the main issue of your post I guess is the S/N : are you sure about that serial number 323 E xxx ?

Because I had found two other Espada A 7817 serial numbers, both with 32*2* E xxx : *322 E 576 *and *322 E 675 *(found them here : http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=40806663&st=30). And the S/N on my own Espada also has *322 E xxx*.

Since there were only 300 made of the A7817, I would find it surprising if Zenith had used the number 322 E xxx as well as 323 E xxx.

BTW I wonder if *Chris *has received his Espada back from his watchmaker, to hear if his A7817 also has S/N 322 E... ?

It seems to me that this number 322 E ... would place all the A7817 Espada's in the last production batch of 1971-72. I'm waiting for Lou's update of his thread on early El Primero serial numbers to see this confirmed.


----------



## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



sempervivens said:


> Thanks for the nice pics Nicola.
> 
> The small red (instead of blue) hand in the hour counter looks suspicious
> :think:
> ...


Tu hai ragione.;-)
Il proprietario mi ha confermato che il numero è 322 E XXX. IO ho sbagliato a vedere la foto.:-(

You have reason. The owner has confirmed to me that the number is 322 E XXX. I have mistaken to see the photo.


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## John Chris (Jul 7, 2010)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

So, dear Nicola and SV, I have my A7817 Espada back (the one pictured above in posts #1 and #20), and checked the back. As previously noted, the back has been polished and the case number is barely visible, but nevertheless discernible. It is 322E956. But to my intense surprise, a second number is also discernible on the opposite side of the case-back: 01.0040.418! This dual reference was, I thought, limited to the transitional ref. 01.0140.415. My 01.0140.415 bears case #249E764, indicating an earlier production date than the 322Exxx A7817s. Has anyone else seen an Espada with both reference number and case number? Is mine unique? I'M RICH!!! (hahaha)

Chris


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Thank you Nicola and Chris.

Chris, I've never seen an Espada A7817 with the ref. 01.0040.418 mentioned on the caseback. If you are able to capture it in a pic I'd like to see it. Considering the high serial number 322E956 on yours, it must have been one of the last of that production batch.

According to a post on the Italian forum, Zenith has communicated that the 01.0140.415 was made in 1972 :
"*Gent. Signor xxx

Quest'orologio con quadrante blu è stato prodotto nel 1972 con movimento crono EL PRIMERO ,calibro 3019 PHC manifattura ,con 500 esemplari

Le auguro un buon fine pomeriggio

Sinceri saluti

Piccirilli Sonia"
(you can read it here : info Zenith "El Primero" Ref. 01.0140.415 - page 4)

*Since the A7817 Espada moonphase chronograph has a higher serial number than the 01.0040.418, I would conclude it was also probably made in 1972.

Anybody who has more information ?


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Espada transitional case back.;-)


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



nicola1960 said:


> Espada transitional case back.;-)


Thank you for showing this Nicola.

The combination of model number and serial number probably dates it to the second half of 1972.


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## nicola1960 (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

Ancora un altro Espada "transizionale".;-)

Another "transitional" Espada.;-)







Dalla collaborazione O. & P. e W.U.S.: Zenith Espada 1° e 2° serie. - page 4

Nuovo arrivo: Zenith Espada fasi di luna


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

For the benefit of the reader I'll summarize the essence about the differences between the Zenith Espada 1st and 2nd series :

*The first edition of the Zenith Espada, catalog reference A7817, can be recognised by the caseback with the 4 pointed star.*

Only 300 were made : in 1972.

This edition still had a Zenith serial number on the caseback : 322Exxx.

The serial number is sometimes lost as a result of polishing, the most distinctive feature obviously is the star on the back.

A few of these first edition Espada's also have the new catalog reference or model number engraved on the back : 01.0040.418. These can be called 'transitional'.

Here's an example where you can see the caseback with the star, the serial number 322Exxx and the new model number: 01.0040.418 :



*The second edition of the Zenith Espada, catalog reference 01.0040.418, can be recognised by the plain caseback without the 4 pointed star (and without the serial number).

*Only 500 were made : in 1973-1975.

These have the model number engraved on the back : 01.0040.418 and 'Sub Sea Stainless Steel'.

Here's an example where you can see the caseback without the star, with the new model number: 01.0040.418. 
In a second example you can also see the writing 'Sub Sea Stainless Steel'.
















The casebacks of the two editions of the Espada are also different on the inside.

Here are three examples of Espada A7817 casebacks on the inside :






















And here is one example of the Espada 01.0040.418 caseback on the inside, which has less writing and instead the new Zenith logo in the center:










Note that in this last example the original movement was apparently replaced by a (later produced) cal. 41.0.

Normally the Espada's are signed *3019 PHF *on the bridge (and 'Zenith 31 jewels swiss made' on the rotor, 'C swiss made' under the balance).

Here is an example:









I hope this helps.

Additionally I hope it will stop frauds from trying to pass their second generation Espada for an A7817, as can be seen here (see Zenith El Primero Cheat Sheet, by LouS « On The Dash) :


> Zenith El Primero, Ref A 7817


or is that why it is called a 'cheat sheet' ?


----------



## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



sempervivens said:


> Additionally I hope it will stop frauds from trying to pass their second generation Espada for an A7817, as can be seen here (see Zenith El Primero Cheat Sheet, by LouS « On The Dash) :
> 
> or is that why it is called a 'cheat sheet' ?


"Frauds"? Seriously? You believe this sort of language is justified?


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



LouS said:


> "Frauds"? Seriously? You believe this sort of language is justified?


Obviously I was provoking you here Lou. Since the language helped to achieve that goal, I think it was justified. 
I think you made a mistake in that cheat sheet concerning the Espada: it is not a ref A 7817.


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

"Fraud" is not a word to be used lightly.


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*

So let me get this straight. Case back difference, star on the dial at 12. Crown? Is that different too? No one mentioning of "crowns." 
How much difference in "value" do you think those things are going to make? 
I know the protocall but i'm seriously asking. 
You know why? $$$$ Lets face it, everyone is thinking. RARE 300 or 500. What one do i have? Is that going to make the "Lesser 300 produced version worth more? Thats the version thats called out right now, and in question since i joined the forums 2 years ago. 
Also, this is for everyone. 
A thread should not be made sticky untill all the "facts" are proven in a catagory so the research has cred. Not saying it has none, it has alot. 
Lets just be correct within the relm of what we know 100%, not asume. I'm willing to bet if Rossler had a pic of the latter Espada, would that be called out as much?

Thanks Chris. I like this thread, and it went off the deep end over a topic that needs to be by itself. Also with info thats updated, added and changed. Maybe a new thread for technical Espada talk only? 31


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



LouS said:


> "Fraud" is not a word to be used lightly.


Is that all you have to say about it ?


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

The thread seems to have gone off topic. Please keep it on topic or Hartmut and I will put on our mod hats. 
Thanks,
Dan


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

Semper, read thread 82. 
Your the guy claiming in your "Take out your sword" Espada thread that the Movado crown on yours is original. Are you kidding? Really? Your case back looks like a ground down Astronic one. I would buy Lois's story before yours, and his watch. Wow folks! A new thread needs to be started. Thats not sticky untill this is sorted out. 31


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

31 Jewels said:


> Semper, read thread 82.
> Your the guy claiming in your "Take out your sword" Espada thread that the Movado crown on yours is original. Are you kidding? Really? Your case back looks like a ground down Astronic one. I would buy Lois's story before yours, and his watch. Wow folks! A new thread needs to be started. Thats not sticky untill this is sorted out. 31


I agree that the Movado crown on my Espada may not be the original crown. If I thought so before, I made a mistake. Mea culpa! But it's only a crown.

I also agree that the caseback of my Espada has been scoured, instead of the more common polishing, but that is rather the same. It is because it is an honest watch, which has seen life, use and service. It has certainly not been put together from new old stock parts.

The idea that it might have a Movado caseback with the Movado writings scoured away, is wrong, for three reasons:
The Zenith serial number on my Espada is still visible. A Movado Astronic never had that serial number.
Secondly, there is no sign whatsoever of the normal Movado writings 'super sub sea stainless steel 01.0010.436'. It would have taken a lot of polishing or scouring to remove that, and there is no sign of such excessive polishing. The scouring is visible, but that has not gone very deep, since the serial number is still there.
Thirdly, the first series Zenith Espada and Movado Astronic casebacks are also different on the inside. The Movado casebacks are also signed 'Movado' on the inside. Mine isn't: because it's a Zenith ref. A 7817.

So let's make this into a more general overview with examples of the first and second series Zenith Espada's and Movado Astronics:

*First series Zenith Espada (ref. A 7817):*
Outside :








Inside :









*First series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):*
Outside:








Inside:









*Conclusion* : the first series Movado Astronic and first series Zenith Espada both have *the Zenith star *on the caseback, and both are signed on the inside with the text "*MZ swiss made acier inoxydable modèle déposé NA 50038-11*". 
But the first series Movado Astronic caseback additionally has on the outside (on the outer edge) the writings "_super sub sea stainless steel 01.0010.436_"_,_ and on the inside the Movado logo and name were added.

The first series Zenith Espada's on the contrary only have a Zenith serial number added on the outside : "_322Exxx_", and a few transitional Zenith Espada's also have the new Zenith model number "_01.0040.418_". Note that serial number and model number are both done in small writing on the center part of the caseback (not in big writing on the outer edge, as the Astronic and the second series Espada have it).

Two transitional samples of first series Zenith Espada's (ref. A7817) with Zenith serial number and new model number. 

View attachment 966445


Then, about the *second series *of Zenith Espada's and Movado Astronics, made in 1973-75 : 
Both have plain casebacks (without the star). 
Both have the text "_sub sea stainless steel_" and the model number in big writing on the outer edge of the caseback.
The only difference is the model number: *01.0040.418* for the Espada and *01.0010.436 *for the Movado.

Examples :

*Second series Zenith Espada (ref. 01.0040.418):
*Outside :










Inside:
View attachment 966398


*Second series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):
*Outside :
View attachment 966397


As you can see the inside of the second series Espada has the new Zenith logo in small in the center and some numbers.

The only thing missing in this overview is the inside of the second series Movado Astronic. Could somebody post an example ?

Also we could do with a better pic of the inside of the second series Espada.

31 jewels, you own a second series Zenith Espada. How about sharing a pic of the inside of that caseback ?


----------



## MMMD (Mar 17, 2012)

Delighted to help put this thread back on track. Here's the back of my first-series Astronic:

View attachment 966829


View attachment 966831


Here's the front:

View attachment 966846


I am also the proud owner of two (count 'em, two) 2nd-series Espada case backs... unfortunately both are still in the custody of my watchmaker... they will return to this forum, I promise.

Heck, I'll even help take this thread back to Blue El Primeros. I'll give you a topic. This Blue El Primero is neither a Zenith nor an El Primero. Discuss. ;-)

View attachment 966840


----------



## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Thank you for saving this thread - about a fraction of a second before I was about to close it!

@31 Jewels and sempervivens: while your discussion is interesting, it is starting to dominate a thread on another topic. Please open a new thread for it - that would help a lot.

Thanks.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thank you for saving this thread - about a fraction of a second before I was about to close it!
> 
> @31 Jewels and sempervivens: while your discussion is interesting, it is starting to dominate a thread on another topic. Please open a new thread for it - that would help a lot.
> 
> ...


Since page two, his thread has been dedicated to the discussion about the Zenith Espada, focusing on the differences between the first and second series Espada. 
Now we've come to page 9 and the discussion is nearly complete, you want us to open a new thread? 
Like I said, the only thing still missing in the above overview is a pic of the inside of the second series Movado Astronic. I hope that somebody will post an example. 
And we could do with a better pic of the inside of the second series Zenith Espada. I hope that somebody will post an example. 
Then I think the discussion is about complete...unless maybe we find out about a 'third series'?

View attachment 967135


----------



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

MMMD said:


> Delighted to help put this thread back on track. Here's the back of my first-series Astronic:
> 
> View attachment 966829
> 
> ...


Thanks M, nice pics. Looking forward to seeing more, hope you will get the Espada soon. Of course in the meantime you already have the Astronic to enjoy. And the TV El Primero. It definitely is an El Primero: it says so on the dial.


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## MMMD (Mar 17, 2012)

sempervivens said:


> ...It definitely is an El Primero: it says so on the dial.


I don't know... if we let them call a Movado 17J 3019 PHC an "El Primero" (when we all know it's really an "HS 360"), next thing you know they'll be calling a manual-wind chrono an "El Primero," or they might even put the "EP" tag on a watch with no chronograph at all. No, let's nip this thing in the bud. ;-)


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

*ZENITH ESPADA and MOVADO ASTRONIC first and second series*

I found a better pic of the inside of the second series Espada, so here is the updated *overview with examples of the first and second series Zenith Espada's and Movado Astronics*:

*First series Zenith Espada (ref. A 7817, 300 pieces were produced in 1972):*
Outside :








Inside :









*First series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):*
Outside:








Inside:









*Conclusion* : the first series Movado Astronic and first series Zenith Espada both have *the Zenith star *on the caseback, and both are signed on the inside with the text "*MZ swiss made acier inoxydable modèle déposé NA 50038-11*". 
But the first series Movado Astronic caseback additionally has on the outside (on the outer edge) the writings "_super sub sea stainless steel 01.0010.436_"_,_ and on the inside the Movado logo and name were added.

The first series Zenith Espada's on the contrary only have a Zenith serial number added on the outside : "_322Exxx_", and a few transitional Zenith Espada's also have the new Zenith model number "_01.0040.418_". Note that serial number and model number are both done in small writing on the center part of the caseback (not in big writing on the outer edge, as the Astronic and the second series Espada have it).

Two transitional samples of first series Zenith Espada's (ref. A7817) with Zenith serial number and new model number. 










Then, about the *second series *of Zenith Espada's and Movado Astronics, made in 1973-75 :

Examples :

*Second series Zenith Espada (ref. 01.0040.418: 500 pieces were produced in 1973-75):
*Outside :









Inside:









*Second series Movado Astronic (ref. 01.0010.436):
*Outside :








Inside :
N/A

Conclusion:
Both have plain casebacks (without the star). 
Both have the text "_sub sea stainless steel_" and the model number in big writing on the outer edge of the caseback.
The only difference is the model number: *01.0040.418* for the Espada and *01.0010.436 *for the Movado.
On the inside of the second series Espada, we see the new Zenith logo in small (positioned slightly above the center), and just below the center the writing *NR 50038-11. 
*This number is the same as in the first series, which however in front has the letters NA instead of NR.

The only thing still missing here now is a pic of the inside of the second series Movado Astronic.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

sempervivens said:


> View attachment 967135


Do I detect some "revolting peasants"?!

"JEHOVA, JEHOVA!!!" :-d

Hartmut Richter


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thank you for saving this thread - about a fraction of a second before I was about to close it!
> 
> @31 Jewels and sempervivens: while your discussion is interesting, it is starting to dominate a thread on another topic. Please open a new thread for it - that would help a lot.
> 
> ...


I thought that semper calling out on lous was more interesting. Not my 2 cents to set the record straight. 
My take is dont "claim originalty" and then "call someone else out on it." Its claim makers that are hooting originality when there not. Thats all. 31


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## 31 Jewels (Oct 15, 2011)

*Re: Blue El Primeros + A7817 photos*



sempervivens said:


> Is that all you have to say about it ?


 This one Hartmut. Its why i dont post here very much. 31


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