# Sinn 856 vs. Rolex Explorer II



## robi516 (Dec 30, 2012)

As you can see in my signature collection, I mostly collect dive watches. However, I have recently become interested in durable "explorer" type watches (e.g., Seiko Alpinist; Halios Tropik B), and would now like add a similar style watch with a UTC/GMT complication. I have been lusting over the Rolex Explorer II for quite some time, however, the ~$7k price tag is really tough for me to justify. I recently discovered Sinn watches and have been learning about their various models. It appears that the Sinn 856 UTC Tegimented is comparable in many ways to the Explorer II. They are both built for rugged outdoor use, and both have the second time zone complication. However, they differ stylistically quite a bit, and there is roughly a $5k cost differential which is very significant.

I would appreciate any responses regarding personal experience with the Sinn 856 with respect to quality, durability, value, ease of use, U.S. dealers, customer service, etc. In addition, if you have any thoughts or opinions on how the 856 compares to the Rolex Explorer II, sharing them would be helpful to me.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

At the risk of sounding like a traitor, I say save up for the Explorer II. The Sinn is a phenomenal watch but if it is your second choice it will always be your compromise watch. In the end you won't be happy until you have your first choice. That being said, for me the Explorer is easier to read the GMT function at a glance and the Explorer can track 3 time zones, where the Sinn is only good for 2. Also the Explorer dresses up easier where the Sinn is more casual.


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## Beefalope (Sep 23, 2013)

Neither. You mentioned the Halios Tropik B. I got that watch last week, and it's absolutely stunning. Both of the watches you have above are nice, but I find the Halios to be more attractive than either of them. Don't be fooled by price -- a $700 watch can look nicer than a $7,000 watch. 

Get the Halios, and you'll be a very happy man.


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

the 856 is an excellent watch for the $ imho... quality is great, they are a perfect size and the thin profile and superb Sinn bracelet make it very comfortable to wear...


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## robi516 (Dec 30, 2012)

Beefalope said:


> Neither. You mentioned the Halios Tropik B. I got that watch last week, and it's absolutely stunning. Both of the watches you have above are nice, but I find the Halios to be more attractive than either of them. Don't be fooled by price -- a $700 watch can look nicer than a $7,000 watch.
> 
> Get the Halios, and you'll be a very happy man.


I already own the Halios Tropik B, and it is very nice. However, my OP was asking about a similar watch with a GMT/UTC (second time zone) complication. The Tropik is just time/date.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

I can't speak about the Rolex, but the 856 is excellent. I've had mine for 18 months and there is not a mark on it; this might not be true for the Rolex. They aren't even close in price so it's hard to see how choosing is difficult. If you have Rolex money, get it. If not, the Sinn won't disappoint. Once have your first Sinn, you will probably want to look some other models with the cash that you didn't spend.

One point that may be important to you: the Sinn is not a 'true UTC' watch. If you adjust the hour hand the UTC moves with it, and you then need to reset the UTC hand to its original time. I <believe> that the Rolex allows hour hand adjustment without moving the UTC. Perhaps somebody who knows can comment.


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## Beefalope (Sep 23, 2013)

robi516 said:


> I already own the Halios Tropik B, and it is very nice. However, my OP was asking about a similar watch with a GMT/UTC (second time zone) complication. The Tropik is just time/date.


You are correct, sir -- my apologies for not paying attention.

In that case, go with the Sinn. They're well-built, attractive watches.

Then again, I don't like Rolex and wouldn't wear one, so I'm biased.


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## gaopa (Dec 6, 2008)

I'm a fellow "SINNer" with a pair of U1's ( U1 T and U1 SDR ). I had a Sinn 857 UTC and never warmed up to it as I decided the dial was just too busy for me.

For several years now I have owned and enjoyed a Rolex EXP II (my only Rolex and the only one I want). It is a classic as far as I'm concerned. Mine is the last generation 40mm model.
Cheers, Bill P.


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## andy_s (Feb 13, 2009)

Same here - I wore an Exp II for about ten years and it's excellent. 
The hour hand flicks between hours when adjusting without stopping or changing the minutes, this doesn't affect the 24hr hand. So when entering a new timezone, just adjust the hour hand and the 24hr hand remains on the original time (which is normally set to 'home' time when I used it).
You can get three timezones out of the GMT IIs due to the rotating bezel, but only two (main time and 24hr hand time) on the Exp II as its bezel is fixed.

Out of the two I'd go with the Rolex for the slightly better/easier way it does things, I'd go for white dial as this goes perfectly in any situation, and I'd go for the previous model as that was the best execution I think (except perhaps the McQueen - even though this followed the original concept of the Explorer which slaved the unadjustable 24hr hand to the main hour hand).


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

andy_s said:


> Same here - I wore an Exp II for about ten years and it's excellent.
> The hour hand flicks between hours when adjusting without stopping or changing the minutes, this doesn't affect the 24hr hand. So when entering a new timezone, just adjust the hour hand and the 24hr hand remains on the original time (which is normally set to 'home' time when I used it).


That makes it far superior to the Sinn as a travel watch. Unfortunately, Sinn haven't implemented an independent hour hand on any of their watches.


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## Kisara (Mar 6, 2007)

Advice to ponder- It may be hard for you to justify the price of such an expensive watch as the Rolex, but should you ever choose to sell it in the future you will receive several thousand dollars more than what your used Sinn would command. A Rolex is worth a lot and is a well-known brand in just about every country, should you have an emergency abroad and need money. 



Sent from my Sectéra Edge using Tapatalk 4


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

I ended up preferring the way Rolex does their time zone hand, but really did not like their styling. So I went with the SMP GMT. If you like the styling, you can use the left over $$$ for something else you like. ;-)

Dan


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## eliz (Apr 5, 2012)

The Explorer II is and will always be a benchmark for GMT watches of it's kind. 
In this case, I'd have to go with the Rollie. It has functionality, looks, history, name and value to boot.

BUT I'd go with the previous generation 16570. I don't really fancy the current maxi hands version, somehow.


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## chris01 (Jan 5, 2011)

Kisara said:


> Advice to ponder- It may be hard for you to justify the price of such an expensive watch as the Rolex, but should you ever choose to sell it in the future you will receive several thousand dollars more than what your used Sinn would command. A Rolex is worth a lot and is a well-known brand in just about every country, should you have an emergency abroad and need money.


As advice for the traveller abroad, I don't rate this one very highly. A distress sale of a used Rolex in an area where the watch makes you a highly visible target for criminals is not quite as sound as $5000 in a money belt. Just buy it if you like it!


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## atxvan (Jul 23, 2013)

My first major watch was the Sinn 857 UTC. Not exactly an 856, but darn close enough for arguments sake. The truth is that is was an Explorer I noticed one day that led me to be first interested in GMT complications. After a long debate, research and further debate I ended up with Sinn.

That said, I think these two are in slightly different categories. One must evaluate why the watch is desired in the first place. Simply for the sake of collection? I can't help you much. I am the type that everything must have a specific and well thought reason. I needed a tough watch for work that tells me a few things, but was desiring an auto and a few other features. The only two drawbacks I see in my Sinn is the GMT setting method and the lack of tritium tubes. I am willing to take the extra time to set my watch, but wished for the easy hour hand setting that the Rolex has.

The Rolex to me, no matter how "explorer" labeled it is, still falls into the category of dress watch and a show piece. Albeit a functional show piece. Some people have a problem with having something strictly for the sake of showing it off. I do not, so long as it is done modestly - yes I think that is possible. Don't hold it up just to get noticed.

All together I think it comes down to the main differences in form and function. They perform nearly identical functions. Form. Do you travel on business and meet people, or do you travel for a more "rugged" reason as I do.

Money. That is all up to the spender. If you have the excess of funds with everything else taken care of then it really is mostly left to true desires. Are you a watch keeper, or a flipper? That plays a part too. I buy the product I want. I try not to spend too much money, and sometimes it ends up that what I want is out of my reach. For that I usually just wait. Would you consider a used Rolex, and would that help the sticker shock?

Hope I didn't get to high on the soap box there.

Strictly from a review stand point, I love my Sinn. Keeps great time, looks exquisite for my environment, easy to change the strap/ bracelet on a whim, provides all the functions I want, stands up well to my surroundings, and so on.

Down side to a Sinn (not yet mentioned). Must go to Germany for servicing. Several features in mine are proprietary, and unable to be addressed locally. May not play a factor with the 856 though.

Good luck.


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## Takemusu (Feb 8, 2012)

I was in a very similar situation recently. But for me, the UTC function was not a prerequisite. I was after an Explorer I alternative. My choices included the Longines Conquest Classic, and the Sinn 856 among others. (I liked the UTC function on the Sinn and opted for the the 856 rather than the 556 series.) 

I had the Longines preordered, but it ended up too hard to read, and too dressy for my tastes. It will be going back to the AD. I had the benefit of examining a Sinn 756 UTC chrono which belongs to my brother and was very impressed by it. Great size for me, very very legible, and just great looking in the flesh. I ordered the 856 UTC from WatchBuys without a second thought. 

About service, I believe RGM watches in Pennsylvania is authorized to service Sinn in the U.S. so it is not essential for Sinns to go back to Germany.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

The 856 is filled with inert gas and has a Copper Sulfate capsule, so it will have to go back to Germany for proper servicing.


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## Takemusu (Feb 8, 2012)

CMSgt Bo said:


> The 856 is filled with inert gas and has a Copper Sulfate capsule, so it will have to go back to Germany for proper servicing.


Why would that matter? If RGM is authorized by Sinn to service their watches, wouldn't they have the parts and know how?


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## apnk (Dec 10, 2007)

Takemusu said:


> Why would that matter? If RGM is authorized by Sinn to service their watches, wouldn't they have the parts and know how?


You would think, but no.


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## Takemusu (Feb 8, 2012)

apnk said:


> You would think, but no.


Hmm. That seems odd. Might be worth a call to confirm? It was my understanding that brands that grant service contracts to watchmakers or watch repair businesses grant part accounts too. If not, how can one properly service a watch to the standard of the manufacturer? That is the point after all....but this IS a strange industry at times...


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## dhtjr (Feb 7, 2013)

I think the inert gas filling requires a special piece of equipment that RGM may or may not yet have. I'm sure an email or call to RGM will clarify.


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

Kisara said:


> Advice to ponder- It may be hard for you to justify the price of such an expensive watch as the Rolex, but should you ever choose to sell it in the future you will receive several thousand dollars more than what your used Sinn would command. A Rolex is worth a lot and is a well-known brand in just about every country, should you have an emergency abroad and need money.
> 
> Sent from my Sectéra Edge using Tapatalk 4


He will have to spend several thousand dollars to purchase the Rolex to start with, so that's a non-starter.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

dhtjr said:


> I think the inert gas filling requires a special piece of equipment that RGM may or may not yet have. I'm sure an email or call to RGM will clarify.


That is correct. RGM didn't have the servicing apparatus the last time I checked. Here's the unit my German Watchmaker used to service Sinns:










The compressor and Argon canister under his work bench:


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## Takemusu (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks for the update. I'll probably check down the road when my Sinn needs a service. Out of curiosity, when did you inquire of RGM?


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## robi516 (Dec 30, 2012)

atxvan said:


> My first major watch was the Sinn 857 UTC. Not exactly an 856, but darn close enough for arguments sake. The truth is that is was an Explorer I noticed one day that led me to be first interested in GMT complications. After a long debate, research and further debate I ended up with Sinn.
> 
> That said, I think these two are in slightly different categories. One must evaluate why the watch is desired in the first place. Simply for the sake of collection? I can't help you much. I am the type that everything must have a specific and well thought reason. I needed a tough watch for work that tells me a few things, but was desiring an auto and a few other features. The only two drawbacks I see in my Sinn is the GMT setting method and the lack of tritium tubes. I am willing to take the extra time to set my watch, but wished for the easy hour hand setting that the Rolex has.
> 
> ...


Thank you all for the good suggestions and advice. I have made the mistake before of spending half as much on a watch that I like but is not really what I want, justifying it by the $ savings. Then I end up flipping the watch and losing money anyway. Based on your advice, I have decided to go for a used Explorer II, the 16570 version with a white dial. Truth be told, it has been a grail of mine for a long time. But if I ever tire of the Rolex, at least I will not lose much if any money in flipping it.

I remain intrigued by the Sinn brand, but think I will now start at looking at one of chronographs instead of the UTC 856.


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## gaopa (Dec 6, 2008)

robi516 said:


> Thank you all for the good suggestions and advice. I have made the mistake before of spending half as much on a watch that I like but is not really what I want, justifying it by the $ savings. Then I end up flipping the watch and losing money anyway. Based on your advice, I have decided to go for a used Explorer II, the 16570 version with a white dial. Truth be told, it has been a grail of mine for a long time. But if I ever tire of the Rolex, at least I will not lose much if any money in flipping it.
> 
> I remain intrigued by the Sinn brand, but think I will now start at looking at one of chronographs instead of the UTC 856.


robi516, you will not be disappointed with your choice of the Rolex Exp II 16570. To my way of thinking it is a Rolex classic. I'm crazy about mine. Cheers, Bill P.


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## atxvan (Jul 23, 2013)

robi516 said:


> ...Based on your advice, I have decided to go for a used Explorer II, the 16570 version with a white dial. T


Always love seeing a conclusion posted on an inquiry thread.


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## esmarquette (Apr 9, 2012)

Op I have spent a year between the 856 and exp ii myself, and this thread hits all the points I've considered. In the end, I decided that the durability of the tegiment, and the fact that I would feel guilt about the 4x cost of the Explorer pushed me over the top in favor of the 856.

Also, i now have 4 decent watches, and I can have a bit of variety and afford to keep the others. Were I to move to one watch, the exp ii would be it. 

Either way, congrats and enjoy your purchase.


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## gmgSR50 (Jul 6, 2009)

Another option is the older Omega Seamaster GMT. They have the independent hour hand like the Rolex, if that's important. The Omega can be bought for close to the same price as the Sinn as well (used of course). I have both and wear them equally but each have different functionality. I like the quick-set date on the Sinn. It's much easier to set the date/time than the Omega if I don't wear it for a while.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

Beefalope said:


> You are correct, sir -- my apologies for not paying attention.
> 
> In that case, go with the Sinn. They're well-built, attractive watches.
> 
> Then again, I don't like Rolex and wouldn't wear one, so I'm biased.


Fess up Beefalope: you secretly crave a Rolex and can't stop "browsing" in the ADs.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

robi516 said:


> Thank you all for the good suggestions and advice. I have made the mistake before of spending half as much on a watch that I like but is not really what I want, justifying it by the $ savings. Then I end up flipping the watch and losing money anyway. Based on your advice, I have decided to go for a used Explorer II, the 16570 version with a white dial. Truth be told, it has been a grail of mine for a long time. But if I ever tire of the Rolex, at least I will not lose much if any money in flipping it.
> 
> I remain intrigued by the Sinn brand, but think I will now start at looking at one of chronographs instead of the UTC 856.


While you're cruising the Sinns, take a look at the next aisle over and check out Damasko. Similar to Sinn in many respects but with a better movement (heavily modified 7750 in some of their chronos) and also high tech super hard super corrosion resistant cases. They just announced that you can get them with bracelets (which are also super hardened).


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

Will_f said:


> While you're cruising the Sinns, take a look at the next aisle over and check out Damasko. Similar to Sinn in many respects but with a better movement (heavily modified 7750 in some of their chronos) and also high tech super hard super corrosion resistant cases. They just announced that you can get them with bracelets (which are also super hardened).


If Damasko ever came out with watches that had a bracelet, I might consider buying one. I swim a lot in the summer and the vast majority of leather straps won't fit my 8" wrist and wouldn't be conducive for swimming anyways.

As far as a better movement, well I'm not so sure about that, Sinn uses nothing but Top Grade ETA and Selita movements. How can you get much better then a Top Grade ETA 2893-2? That's what's in the 856 utc !


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

CombatMarine said:


> If Damasko ever came out with watches that had a bracelet, I might consider buying one. I swim a lot in the summer and the vast majority of leather straps won't fit my 8" wrist and wouldn't be conducive for swimming anyways.
> 
> As far as a better movement, well I'm not so sure about that, Sinn uses nothing but Top Grade ETA and Selita movements. How can you get much better then a Top Grade ETA 2893-2? That's what's in the 856 utc !


I think you might have missed that Damasko IS coming out with bracelets this year.

The advantage of the Damasko in house movement is the following:

The manufacturer guarantees chronometer performance.

The DC86 (the one with green hands) I believe uses a lubricant free escapement.

The balance spring is silicon.

The balance is free sprung.

The movement looks cooler.


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

If they come out with bracelets with the same ice hardened metal as their cases, I might be interested.. Until then I will enjoy my Sinn.

P.S. On their sales site, they list the DA36 as having a ETA 2836 movement, I know they switch up some of the parts, but that is what a lot of companies do. Sinn puts in special oils, argon gas, and the copper sulfate tube into it's 856 models. I would hardly call either an In-House movement. An improved one to be sure, but not in house.


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## captain peacock (Jun 10, 2011)

CombatMarine said:


> If they come out with bracelets with the same ice hardened metal as their cases, I might be interested.. Until then I will enjoy my Sinn.


From Damasko's website Watchbands & Fasteners | Damasko



> DAMASKO Steel watchband  The DAMASKO steel wristband is made in the watch manufactory along with all of its components - "100% Made in Germany" - "100% Made in-house". Each link is individually manufactured and assembled by hand. *The whole wristband, including the deployment buckle, consists of the same ice-hardened stainless steel than the DAMASKO case and is virtually indestructible*. The in-house steel wristband literally shines with precision and robustness.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

CombatMarine said:


> If they come out with bracelets with the same ice hardened metal as their cases, I might be interested.. Until then I will enjoy my Sinn.
> 
> P.S. On their sales site, they list the DA36 as having a ETA 2836 movement, I know they switch up some of the parts, but that is what a lot of companies do. Sinn puts in special oils, argon gas, and the copper sulfate tube into it's 856 models. I would hardly call either an In-House movement. An improved one to be sure, but not in house.


They sell both ETA and in house movements. If it's under $2k it's pretty much a straight up ETA. Between 2.5-4k it's a modified ETA. More than that and it's entirely in house.

Pic of one of their in- house movements:










Nothing wrong with Sinn, but I recommend you research Damasko. They might impress you.


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

Will_f said:


> They sell both ETA and in house movements. If it's under $2k it's pretty much a straight up ETA. Between 2.5-4k it's a modified ETA. More than that and it's entirely in house.
> 
> Pic of one of their in- house movements:
> 
> ...


Very nice looking, I'm sure that as decorated as it is, it comes with a display case back.


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

CombatMarine said:


> Very nice looking, I'm sure that as decorated as it is, it comes with a display case back.


It does.


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

Will_f said:


> It does.


What's the model number on that one?


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## Will_f (Jul 4, 2011)

CombatMarine said:


> What's the model number on that one?


DK11. It's the same as the DK10 except it has a white face. Pic of the front:


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## CombatMarine (May 21, 2013)

CMSgt Bo said:


> The 856 is filled with inert gas and has a Copper Sulfate capsule, so it will have to go back to Germany for proper servicing.


If the capsule is full it does need to go back to Germany, if the watch is out of warranty, and needs repair other then the capsule, any competent watchmaker can repair or regulate the ETA, Selita Movements, the only thing they won't be able to do is recharge the case with Argon gas, I think I could live without that though.

This maybe moot though, since I understand RGM, the service center for Sinn in North America, is in the process of getting the equipment to replace the capsules and argon gas,


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