# Mannheim vs. Mannheim Special Edition



## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Just sent the following e-mail to Laco, and was wondering if anyone here knew anything about this:

_"Could you please tell me more about the differences in the movements between Ref: 861712 "special edition Mannheim" and Ref: 861695 "Mannheim"? _

_Are the differences purely the cosmetic differences described on the web page, or is the 2801-2 movement actually a higher ETA grade than the 2801 movement?"_

I've done a bunch of searching for 2801 vs. 2801-2 and haven't come up with anything.

Many thanks,

Joe


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Laco told me in an e-mail that the special edition is a top grade movement that is decorated. 

The decorated movement with the solid case back seems foolish, especially at the price.

The 861695 has been out of stock for about a month. They're waiting on 2801 movements at this time.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Precisely. The decoration matters not to me, but if the special edition has a top grade, and the regular Mannheim is a standard or elabore (I couldn't even find the grade levels of the 2801 anywhere), I could be interested. Would you say that your e-mail from Laco implied that the regular Mannheim was fitted with something below a top grade? We need that part of the equation to really understand the price difference.


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Well they didn't specify the grade in the regular 861695. I'm guessing it is standard. The price increase, IMO, for the "special edition" is steep. Especially considering it's largely for decoration you cannot see.

I'll likely order an 861695 when they are back in stock again. A few seconds / day accuracy gain is not worth the money to me. I don't know what Laco is thinking here.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

They're thinking of me. I believe I fall into the "accuracy nut" side of the spectrum. I've had such good luck with a top grade 7750 (which cost over twice what a Mannheim special edition costs), I am loathe to pass on the readily available potential for accuracy. I wouldn't pay for a COSC certificate, but I do value a top grade movement.


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## kevral (May 10, 2011)

They're probably also thinking of idiots like myself, who will use the top grade to rationalize away the price premium but who really just can't handle the wait for the regular version.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Timely reply from Diana Bott of Laco:

_"Hello,_

_thank you for your interest in Laco watches and sorry for my late reply._

_The movement in 861695 has no dekor and is standart grade_
_The movement in 861712 has a special dekor, blue srews and is top grade._

_If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to contact me again._

_Best regards,__ 
Diana"_


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

kevral said:


> They're probably also thinking of idiots like myself, who will use the top grade to rationalize away the price premium but who really just can't handle the wait for the regular version.


Well, I may be an idiot - but I'm going to be an idiot with a top grade movement. My 861712 will ship today. This is my first Laco; second mechanical - and both of them are German. I'm thinking of a Damasko DA36 next. It's odd that I resonate as a German watch fan (ethnic Italian; italophile; Ferrari fan/German car hater), and suspect it is some combination of the style, value relative to comparably spec'ed Swiss watches, and a desire to be different.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Well, there's a lot to like, but . . .

Is this not one of the "incorrect" dials, with the 12:00 pointer not touching the inner ring? And different from the standard Mannheim?









I recall some discussion, somewhere, about a similar, surprising departure by another watch from the more originally configured dial, but I can't find it yet.

Of course the strap is too short, which I pretty much expected. I'm interested in a light brown strap without rivets, like a Hirsch Liberty. Any other ideas for something that might be immediately available? I'd like to be able to wear this thing asap.

It's not setting any accuracy records, either. + 6 sec in about 16 hr.

I really like the B face in general, and not just from the distinct aesthetics - I like the "assist" it provides in reading the minutes. And I'm delighted to have a real, full face seconds hand (my other watch being a chronograph).


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Where did you order your watch from? Laco direct or a dealer? I'd be annoyed that the dial doesn't match the Laco website photo.

I'd say it's too soon to judge the accuracy however.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

With respect to accuracty - oh, of course. I was just presenting what I had. 

It comes from Laco directly. With all the fuss regarding the accurate rendering of the dial - I'm not sure what to think. And it's hard to imagine why one Mannheim would have one dial, and another would have another.


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Maybe there was a running change in the latest batch of Type B dials, and the current website photos don't yet reflect that.

I'm curious what Laco says on the subject. I do think photos should match current product 100%.

If the tail of the triangle almost touching (enlarge the website photos and it doesn't touch, but is closer than yours) is authentic, and considering Laco was making these originally, why would they change that?


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

2cats said:


> Is this not one of the "incorrect" dials, with the 12:00 pointer not touching the inner ring? And different from the standard Mannheim?


Your dial looks correct to me. The 12 o'clock arrow never touched the hour ring, although it comes very close.



2cats said:


> I recall some discussion, somewhere, about a similar, surprising departure by another watch from the more originally configured dial, but I can't find it yet.


The original run of Stuttgarts had an incorrectly proportioned dial, but Laco long ago stated that they were going to redesign it for subsequent runs.


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## einstein (Apr 14, 2009)

No, it IS the incorrect dial version. The original watch had the tail of the arrow almost touch the inner ring. The photo of the Mannheim watch on the Laco site has the correct layout. However, your watch (and mine for that matter) have the tail positioned too far from the inner ring. It annoys me and I think it's not very nice of Laco to send a different product than you ordered. I won't send it back because, for me, the price of the watch is too low too bother. But if it annoys you too much, send it back. Laco is at fault here.

It did however affect the way I look at Laco in general.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm going to try to produce some better photographic evidence, and I will reference two recent threads that are apparently discussing the standard 861695 Mannheim:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/gorgeous-42mm-laco-type-b-2801-has-arrived-493136.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/my-watch-here-42mm-b-dial-eta-2801-a-494783.html

Pictures that I've pulled from these threads include:












































Now I'll try and take some pictures of my watch. Sitting here, it's pretty obvious to me that the dials are different. I'll see if I can capture what I'm seeing.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Here are my attempts to "duplicate" the photos of the 861695's:


























































And a gratuitous cat shot. Surely it's obvious from these pictures - the dial is not the same.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Some relevant threads. I think my dial is the same as this Hannover dial:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/ever-seen-hannover-dial-variation-531065.html

and the less relevant threads discussing dial configuration in the 45 mm:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/my-new-laco-45-his-best-friend-485085.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f367/laco-45mm-ref-861698-stuttgart-480148.html


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Well, Laco did better in the past.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

einstein said:


> No, it IS the incorrect dial version.


My most humble apology. On my tiny iPhone screen it looked close enough - certainly better than the Stuttgart I had referenced...


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

I wonder if Laco would put a correctly-printed dial on if a customer complained. Looks like between the Mannheims and Hannovers they've shipped a bunch of these with the poor printing job.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

I may find out. I hate being "that customer"; it's not my style, and I rarely have the occasion. The misplaced 12:00 marker doesn't bother me, per se, if I'm keeping the watch, which I would like. But I am concerned about what would happen if I were to try and sell, because right now I've got a $900, 10 sec/day top grade movement in a solid case back with an incorrect dial. That will not compete well against a standard 861695 Mannheim (presumably with a correct dial). It doesn't help that the strap is too short for me to wear it - that's keeping me from bonding. 

Well, I guess I should begin a discussion with them. Hey, what about strap recommendations while we're waiting? No rivets; light brown/tan; open stiching or stiched out to the side like a Hirsch Liberty; stiching as dark or darker than the leather; rough, matte, course, vintage looking? Hirsch Liberty? Di Modell Jumbo? Toshi? I think it's getting away from light colored stiching that's going to be difficult.

Many thanks,

Joe


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

It would sure be nice if Diana from Laco would pop into this thread and clear things up.

The thing is, *Laco knows where the 12:00 pointer should be, *so why have they printed up a bunch of dials with the issue and continued to sell them?

Is there some leeway as to the height of the pointer? I know I've seen the high pointer before on the less expensive Miyota Type-B's. But if you look at Laco's website, or Stowa for that matter, or historical photos of Type-B's, the tail of the pointer is almost touching the hour ring.

I was just about to buy an 861695 Mannheim, but not anymore if it has this issue. I'll either order an 861696 Karlsruhe Type-A, or wait until I can get a Type-B Laco with the correct dial printing.

As far as strap choices, post in the strap forum as the Laco forum gets very little traffic.


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## fluppyboy (May 24, 2009)

2cats said:


> IHey, what about strap recommendations while we're waiting? No rivets; light brown/tan; open stiching or stiched out to the side like a Hirsch Liberty; stiching as dark or darker than the leather; rough, matte, course, vintage looking? Hirsch Liberty? Di Modell Jumbo?


Pass on the Di-Modell Jumbo, the leather is so smooth it looks plastic. I know, I bought one, but haven't used it on any of my watches because I thought it would have *some* texture. It doesn't. :-(

How about THIS ONE? Or THIS, if you want darker.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

LH2 said:


> Is there some leeway as to the height of the pointer? I know I've seen the high pointer before on the less expensive Miyota Type-B's. But if you look at Laco's website, or Stowa for that matter, or historical photos of Type-B's, the tail of the pointer is almost touching the hour ring.


There were certainly dial variations in the originals, however, I've never seen one where the bottom of the arrow wasn't close to the hour ring. Fast forward over half a century and there are all kinds of mutated B-Uhr dials on the market - some have gone so far as to even feature sub-dials. Every manufacturer has taken liberties with and made modifications to the original design, Laco and Stowa included.

@2cats: The resell-ability of your watch would be the least of my concerns. The vast majority of B-Uhr buyers wouldn't know a historically correct dial from a modern variation, let alone how close the arrow should be to the hour ring. Then again, why should they care? Anyone seriously considering buying your watch from you would likely place more importance in what you did, its movement. Did you happen to ask Laco if there was a display back available for the watch?


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## Laco Pforzheim (Oct 4, 2010)

Hello,

there was a discussion about the 45mm B-dial before. I can't find it right now, but about this we know that the triangle marker is not at the right position on the B dial of the 45mm pilot watches. We will change this at the next generation of dials which will be ordered if we are out of stock with the existing ones. 

regards,
Diana


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## LH2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Diana, are you acknowledging that there is a problem with the 42mm dials, but that Laco is going to sell them (with the flawed dial) and fix the next generation once these are out of stock?

Or are you saying the problem lies only with the 45mm dial, and the 42mm is considered satisfactory? Thanks for clarification.


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## einstein (Apr 14, 2009)

Laco Pforzheim said:


> Hello,
> 
> there was a discussion about the 45mm B-dial before. I can't find it right now, but about this we know that the triangle marker is not at the right position on the B dial of the 45mm pilot watches.


The Mannheim of this discussion is a 42mm model.

edit: I see that LH2 beat me to it.


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## Laco Pforzheim (Oct 4, 2010)

We checked and find out that our dials in stock are the second generation and you are right...the triangle is definitly to far away from the inner circle. We will send them all back to our supplier right know and hopefully will get the right printed dials back in a few days.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Diana,

Would you think that I would be in a position to either exchange the dial on my watch, or exchange watches for one prepared with the correctly printed dials?

Many thanks,

Joe


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## Laco Pforzheim (Oct 4, 2010)

I am very sorry about this trouble, of course you can send the watch back to our company and we will change the dial as soon as we get the right ones.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

Well that is superb; I will very much appreciate that. To be honest, I over-simplified things when I said that the misplaced marker did not bother me. I am very appreciative of the effort and attention to detail that Laco has put into the configuration of these watches, and I will, in fact, be very happy with a "correct" dial. 

Thanks very much,

Joe


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## Laco Pforzheim (Oct 4, 2010)

Hello,

now we have correct printed dials for 42mm Baumuster B watches in stock. You can now send back your 42 mm watches if you want us to change the dials. Please note, that our service department will be on holliday from 01th August until 14th August.

regards,
Diana


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Laco Pforzheim said:


> Hello,
> 
> now we have correct printed dials for 42mm Baumuster B watches in stock. You can now send back your 42 mm watches if you want us to change the dials. Please note, that our service department will be on holliday from 01th August until 14th August.
> 
> ...


That's good news. Thanks Diana.


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

*And here it is*









Put on a strap that fits me, and I will wear it this week.























Many thanks to Diana and everyone at Laco, and to everyone in this thread. Enjoy.

Joe


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

*Re: And here it is*

Very, very nice. Interesting strap - it has a vintage look to it - where's it from?


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## 2cats (Feb 24, 2011)

*Re: And here it is*

It is a Toshi, with saddle leather and light brown stitching.


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