# Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple watches?



## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

Apple Forum:

Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple watches? while the other brands have a neutral/formal description... Examples:

Apple Watches
Dedicated to Apple brand smart watches. *The next giant leap in horology.

*Seiko & Citizen
Forum dedicated to Seiko and Citizen watches.* <nothing else>*

Oris
Forum dedicated to Oris watches. *Oris is an independent Swiss watch brand.*

Suunto
Forum dedicated to Suunto watches. *Suunto is a Finnish brand subsidiary of Amer Sports Corporation

*Forum names and descriptions should follow the same format regardless of brand.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Because nothing had really changed since quartz?


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

Because we had room and we wanted to put something. Most people
know about Apple. Apple does not need explanation like Oris and Suunto.


Thanks,
rationaltime


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

rationaltime said:


> Because we had room and we wanted to put something. Most people
> know about Apple. Apple does not need explanation like Oris and Suunto


This would be more fitting and in line with all of the other subs:

Apple is an American technology company headquartered in Cupertino, California, that sells computer electronics.

Most people know about Rolex yet they didn't receive any marketing catch phrases.


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



BarracksSi said:


> Because nothing had really changed since quartz?


That's like saying automobiles haven't changed since the first 4 wheeled gas powered cars. Still no reason for subtle advertisement, especially considering that smart watches existed years before the iwatch


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## Drumguy (Jun 24, 2014)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*

Because the robot overlords want you to believe a smartphone on your wrist is a watch.


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



Drumguy4all said:


> Because the robot overlords want you to believe a smartphone on your wrist is a watch.


Which raises another point. The Apple watch has little to do with Horology in the historical context in the study of mechanically engineered watches/clock/etc..

"Dedicated to Apple brand smart watches. The next giant leap in horology."


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## valmak (May 29, 2010)

OP if you don't like Apple Watch go to a different forum. I don't understand your problem other than possibly being a troll.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



lxxrr said:


> Which raises another point. The Apple watch has little to do with Horology.


What does?


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

valmak said:


> OP if you don't like Apple Watch go to a different forum. I don't understand your problem other than possibly being a troll.


Not trolling, I'd feel the same way if Rolex' read:

Rolex is headquartered in Geneva, Switzerland. The leading name in luxury watches combining style with precision and reliability. A symbol of watchmaking perfection for over a century.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



lxxrr said:


> Last edited by lxxrr at 14:00.
> 
> Which raises another point. The Apple watch has little to do with Horology in the historical context in the study of mechanically engineered watches/clock/etc.


Horology is the science of measuring time.

Off the top of my head, in the 20th century, the advances in horology have been-adoption of wristwatches en masse (by men, because women were doing it a century earlier) through the introduction of sealing and the improvement of glass, adoption of chronographs and automatics en masse, atomic clocks, quartz, network time protocol.

Time keeping has been computerized and networked since the 1980s with NTP. The next step in time keeping is bringing NTP to the masses-first through computers, then cell phones, and now with smartwatches and Apple Watch is the one that moves the smartwatch from a niche product into a mainstream product.

What we're seeing is the effect of the information revolution, the information age, on horology. It started on desktops and it was only a matter of time before it moved back onto the wrist.


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## watchRus (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



scentedlead said:


> Horology is the science of measuring time.
> 
> Off the top of my head, in the 20th century, the advances in horology have been-adoption of wristwatches en masse (by men, because women were doing it a century earlier) through the introduction of sealing and the improvement of glass, adoption of chronographs and automatics en masse, atomic clocks, quartz, network time protocol.
> 
> ...


To start off, yes, the description does really feel like the embodiment of an Apple advertisement. Not that it will ever contribute to the lackluster demand it's been having or will ever have. But I am really surprised that Apple Watch even has a subform of its own rather than a general Smart Watch theme section. I will place bets that monetary incentive was involved. I only say this because last time I was here, A Lange Sohne was not given a subform of its own, but was listed under high-end watches.

Second, horology is indeed the science of keeping/measuring time. Much complex maneuvers, dedication, effort and time have to be undertaken to achieve precise control of calculation that such a field must be brought about during a period when it was a luxury to know what time it was.

Now, I am not a horologist by any means, but please, do not advance the notion that if you strap a phone to your wrist, it suddenly became part of the horological enterprise that masses have devoted for the _sole _sake of keeping time. This is disrespectful, blasphemous, impolite to the history of timekeeping and especially the users of this forum.

Finally, strictly speaking, Apple has done nothing to advance time keeping to even consider it in a horological perspective. While the entertainment value that an Apple device provides is unquestionably a waste of time, I cannot conceive any betterment to time keeping but that of time wasting.

Horology did not start on our wrists, but it ended on our wrists... about a decade or two ago. Not conceding, will never concede.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*

The history of this subforum is that there were too many threads in the public forum, hence the move of the threads to the smartwatches forum. And then there were too many threads there hence the creation of an Apple subforum under smartwatches, where it still is. This forum is both its own forum and a subforum-it can be both, why not?



watchRus said:


> Second, horology is indeed the science of keeping/measuring time. Much complex maneuvers, dedication, effort and time have to be undertaken to achieve precise control of calculation that such a field must be brought about during a period when it was a luxury to know what time it was.


And more complex machines exist to keep track of time in this age when time is not a luxury but a necessity. I want to catch my train on time or else be late to work-that's a necessity for me and the train system. My cell phone bills by the minute after using a pool of free minutes-that needs tracking. I place an order for a watch on the internet for a store on the other side of the world-that vendor needs to know when the order was placed, and the planes involved in shipping it need standardized time with more urgency than trains a century ago needed standardized time. I watch TV and this is paid for by advertisers-again, time needs tracking, and again, the need for standardized time, to coordinate across time zones.

Computers-the complex machines they are-are what make all this precision in timekeeping necessary. If the world doesn't feel like time keeping is a necessity, it's because of the easy availability of accurate time-time you can trust-and again, this easy availability is made possible because of computers. The more accessible a technology, the more potential for it being revolutionary.

We've come a long way from needing observatories to send the time to clock towers, train stations, and banks for accurate time. We've come a long way from needing to call a phone number or to watch the news to get accurate time. Everyone now has access to accurate time and it's been made possible because of computers, starting with reference atomic clocks all the way down the chain to the computers on our desks, in our pockets, and now on our wrists.



> Now, I am not a horologist by any means, but please, do not advance the notion that if you strap a phone to your wrist, it suddenly became part of the horological enterprise that masses have devoted for the _sole _sake of keeping time. This is disrespectful, blasphemous, impolite to the history of timekeeping and especially the users of this forum.


You don't think that limiting horology to devices that keep time and do nothing else is limiting to the advancement of horology? By your definition, you would consider the contribution of the atomic clock-yet then leave it at that to completely disregard the role every other computer has played in your ability to know the time. Obliterate computers and where are we at? We're at using quartz watches and syncing them with time from a phone number for accurate time. Or, maybe, if you live close enough to an atomic clock that sends radiowaves, you can get a radio-controlled atomic watch or clock. I can live with that, but I would rather have even more accurate time and that comes from an atomic watch or clock, or from Network Time Protocol. And for many things I depend on, accurate time is not a want but a need.



> Finally, strictly speaking, Apple has done nothing to advance time keeping to even consider it in a horological perspective. While the entertainment value that an Apple device provides is unquestionably a waste of time, I cannot conceive any betterment to time keeping but that of time wasting.


The Apple Watch gives me the time accurate to 50 milliseconds, the day, the date, world time, sunrise, sunset, the sun's position, the moon's phase, a timer, a stopwatch, a calendar, and alarms-and that's just out of the box, let's see what else software developers can come up with. It gives me the time in all these different ways, and all in a $350 package. It is far more accessible to me than a Philippe Patek I would need for the sunrise/sunset complication alone. The AW has made the time accessible to people in ways that mechanical watch manufacturers would not at prices everyday people can reach. Again, it's not a revolution unless it gains mass adoption for the masses to use-how many people have an AW vs. how many people have a watch with a sunrise/sunset complication?



> Horology did not start on our wrists, but it ended on our wrists... about a decade or two ago. Not conceding, will never concede.


As Tim Cook has been saying for a while: The wrist is interesting.


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## watchRus (Feb 13, 2012)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*

A total of 74 threads over the span of almost one year does not quality as there being too many threads or such a necessity that without the creation of this subforum, further discussions important to WUS community/majority will be displaced.

I can understand a subforum being there for Lange as it garnered demand for a high-end market, even if how little in comparison to likes of Rolex/Omega forum.


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

*Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



watchRus said:


> I can understand a subforum being there for Lange as it garnered demand for a high-end market, even if how little in comparison to likes of Rolex/Omega forum.


Well, you could always lobby for a sub forum for A Lange if you feel strongly enough.


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



scentedlead said:


> Horology is the science of measuring time.
> 
> Time keeping has been computerized and networked since the 1980s with NTP. The next step in time keeping is bringing NTP to the masses-first through computers, then cell phones, and now with smartwatches and Apple Watch is the one that moves the smartwatch from a niche product into a mainstream product..


As someone with a master's degree in computer science, engineer, and in the industry over over 12 years, I respectfully disagree in the correlation between a time synchronization protocol and forward movement in the art/engineering/study of horology. We know that the NTP protocol is well established and will assist in the synchronization of any networked device perfectly. That's programming, not horology. A copy machine includes the technology to make perfect images of a hand drawn painting. A copier in my view does not replace the artistic aspect of painting. The methods, training, dedication, skill required to hand paint is an art form, as is Horology. The IWatch is a completely different platform and no one is disputing that. A computer worn on the wrist can easily replicate the functions of a mechanical watch through existing protocols and apps. If I strap a band on a Ipod Touch, it'll tell perfect time. It'll still have nothing to do with art and study of horology.

The thread has now derailed though, and we're now venturing into religious territory. When just about any object/parallel/fallacy can be tied together based on how far the person wants to stretch their beliefs and defend their own. All i'm stating is that marketing speak is not appropriate for a internet forum catering to wide variety of brands. It shows blatant bias / paid advertising.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



lxxrr said:


> As someone with a master's degree in computer science, engineer, and in the industry over over 12 years, I respectfully disagree in the correlation between a time synchronization protocol and forward movement in the art/engineering/study of horology.


This really doesn't make any sense.

Perhaps there should be a new term for the study and admiration of centuries-old mechanical timepieces.

We'd have to exclude water clocks, observations of Jupiter's moons, and other old methods, though, and just focus on metallic alloys formed into gears and springs.

Then, that niche - whatever it shall be named - can be free to declare itself as the Only True Way to measure time.

But only if it's small enough for the pocket or wrist?


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



> Perhaps there should be a new term for the study and admiration of centuries-old mechanical timepieces.




C'mon now.


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



scentedlead said:


> Horology is the science of measuring time.





lxxrr said:


> ... I respectfully disagree in the correlation between a time synchronization protocol and forward movement in the _art/engineering/study of horology_.


Well, horology is the science of measuring time. Mechanical movements is merely an instrument for doing that. Instruments change over time.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Maybe "horophile"? Nah, that sounds dirty...

The "-ology" part describes "study", not merely interest or enthusiasm. It means experimentation and discovery. The act of simply enjoying something is different from studying it.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

If you think about it, network time has existed for centuries.

Once upon a time:
reference clock = sundial.
time server = church bells.
end client = person close enough to hear bells.

Then with the industrial revolution:
reference clock = observatory (not always an observatory, but usually) with visual signal, like the time ball drop, to send the time.
time servers = clock towers, train stations, banks.
end client = house clocks and wrist/pocket watches.

A lot happened between the start of the industrial revolution and now but to keep it short, we’re now at:
reference clock = atomic clock.
time servers = literal server computers that serve the time.
end client = personal computers—desktops, laptops, cell phones, smartwatches.

Relaying time has been a thing for a long time, just back then it was done with audible or visual signals. Now it’s done with computers but it’s the same concept. The horological interest here isn’t the devices, but the system and the increasing reach and accuracy with each new system.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

BarracksSi said:


> Maybe "horophile"? Nah, that sounds dirty...
> 
> The "-ology" part describes "study", not merely interest or enthusiasm. It means experimentation and discovery. The act of simply enjoying something is different from studying it.


Bleh. Is such a new word really necessary?

As my interest is in time as a whole and all the ways it permeates and affects our lives, I prefer to encourage an expansive and inclusive view of horology, not something limited and exclusive.

But if mechanical watch devotees must have exclusive views of horology, then who am I to challenge their exclusive club of fans of exclusive timepieces? Being exclusive is a good thing, right?


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

scentedlead said:


> But if mechanical watch devotees must have exclusive views of horology, then who am I to challenge their exclusive club of fans of exclusive timepieces? Being exclusive is a good thing, right?


Only if you're part of the club


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

scentedlead said:


> Bleh. Is such a new word really necessary?


It shouldn't be, but when people want to change the definition of a word to suit their own preferences, wouldn't it be better to adopt a new term rather than ruin an existing one?


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## watchRus (Feb 13, 2012)

BarracksSi said:


> It shouldn't be, but when people want to change the definition of a word to suit their own preferences, wouldn't it be better to adopt a new term rather than ruin an existing one?


Perhaps we should stick to the old one of it being the *sole* study of measuring time instead of attempting to consort everything under the sun as part of it.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

watchRus said:


> Perhaps we should stick to the old one of it being the *sole* study of measuring time instead of attempting to consort everything under the sun as part of it.


So what you're saying is, include every method of timekeeping.


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## watchRus (Feb 13, 2012)

BarracksSi said:


> So what you're saying is, include every method of timekeeping.


I figured someone would miss the 'sole' part which is why I made it bold, underlined it, and still some seem to be oblivious its existence. I do not understand. Is your case that important that you are willing to bend the definition of a terminology in order to be included? The case is closed here.


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## Drumguy (Jun 24, 2014)

scentedlead said:


> The Apple Watch gives me the time accurate to 50 milliseconds, the day, the date, world time, sunrise, sunset, the sun's position, the moon's phase, a timer, a stopwatch, a calendar, and alarms-and that's just out of the box, let's see what else software developers can come up with. It gives me the time in all these different ways, and all in a $350 package. It is far more accessible to me than a Philippe Patek I would need for the sunrise/sunset complication alone. The AW has made the time accessible to people in ways that mechanical watch manufacturers would not at prices everyday people can reach. Again, it's not a revolution unless it gains mass adoption for the masses to use-how many people have an AW vs. how many people have a watch with a sunrise/sunset complication?
> 
> My citizen perpetual chrono is radio controlled so it has atomic time it has world time a perpetual calendar a chronograph timer an alarm. It does not have a sunrise and sunset complication but as I am NOT a fisherman I do not need to know that information if I did I would grab a simple tide chart from any local bait and tackle shop for that very easy to get information, other than that when the Sun rises I know it's sunrise and when the Sun sets I know it's sunset. It is a smartphone on your wrist. When you can show me that same watch is still working 50 years from now with no upgrades then I'll think it's an advancement in horology


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

Drumguy4all said:


> My citizen perpetual chrono is radio controlled so it has atomic time it has world time a perpetual calendar a chronograph timer an alarm. It does not have a sunrise and sunset complication but as I am NOT a fisherman I do not need to know that information if I did I would grab a simple tide chart from any local bait and tackle shop for that very easy to get information, other than that when the Sun rises I know it's sunrise and when the Sun sets I know it's sunset. It is a smartphone on your wrist. When you can show me that same watch is still working 50 years from now with no upgrades then I'll think it's an advancement in horology


If you live in a bad neighborhood and are planning your day so that you're home before it gets dark, it's nice to know when it will get dark.

If you have a bad eye that's slow to adjust to changes in light, it's nice to know when it will get dark.

If you are going to drive some unlit country backroads, it'll be nice to know when it gets dark. It might even be nice to have a moonphase complication to know if said roads will be well lit (full moon) or completely dark (new moon), and you can decide for yourself whether or not you want to take that midnight run to that secluded beach.

(Truth be told, I wish that the Solar face on the AW broke down twilight even further with nodes for civil, nautical, and astronomical.)

When mechanical watches make _complex_ time keeping affordable to the masses, I'll consider their contribution to horology in the information revolution. Digital watches have long since surpassed mechanical watches in making complex time keeping available to the masses and smartwatches are the next step in that.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

BarracksSi said:


> So what you're saying is, include every method of timekeeping.





watchRus said:


> I figured someone would miss the 'sole' part which is why I made it bold, underlined it, and still some seem to be oblivious its existence. I do not understand. Is your case that important that you are willing to bend the definition of a terminology in order to be included? The case is closed here.


A network protocol whose sole purpose is to relay time with the most precision and accuracy that humanity has ever known exists only to tell the time. That atomic clock serves no other purpose. Those time servers? No other purpose except to dole out the time. So by your definition . . .

Also, I'll point out that to develop a successful program, you need to know what it is you're programming for. You can't develop an app like Photoshop without a deep knowledge of how light and color interact with each other. You can't develop complex faces on a smartwatch without knowing horology. You can't develop a network to relay time without knowing how time works.

Anyways, let's switch gears: Van Cleef & Arpels Midnight Planétarium Poetic Complication

It's beautiful. I fell in love with it from the first day I saw it on Tumblr a year ago. And then its $250,000 price tag broke my heart.

But is it a watch? More important: Is it an artifact of horology?

Its purpose isn't to tell the time; its purpose is to track the the solar system. So-by some people's definitions-as a planetarium it is not an artifact of horology.

But it is because it does tell us the time, albeit not in the way most of us construct time. We construct the time as a measure how long it takes the Earth to spin on its axis. With the Midnight Planétarium, if you construct time as units based on planets, well, then yes it does tell the time. We might have no use for it, but I'm sure that navigators of eras past who depended on the moon and stars at night would've loved this to tell the time. It tells the time, but you need a different construct of time to view the Midnight Planétarium, this planetarium on a wrist, as an artifact of horology.

Lastly, the Apple Watch does that in a $350 package-out of the box, the Astronomy face. Sure the AW doesn't have the charm of the Midnight Planétarium, but it does the exact same job-and does it very accurately-and won't cost me my car x 10.


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## Turkzee (Oct 25, 2010)

to the OP:
i think that, more than any other brand, Apple has managed to imprint its marketing language over the "normal" consumer language
anything that Apple does is at least "amazing" and "incredible"
it is only natural that their wrist appliance is a "giant leap"


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

scentedlead said:


> You can't develop an app like Photoshop without a deep knowledge of how light and color interact with each other. You can't develop complex faces on a smartwatch without knowing horology. You can't develop a network to relay time without knowing how time works.


Apple can develop "complex faces" and timekeeping components with relative ease. Built-in time keeping functions/commands...exist in all programming languages for this very purpose. We can find sample code and algorithms freely available to replicate *any *function of timekeeping on any platform. EG: 5.7. Clocks and Timers | The C++ Standard Library: Utilities | InformIT Timekeeping/Timers are extremely basic to code . Any 15 year old with a computer and basic understanding of programming can recreate Patek level "timekeeping" and output it to any display he wishes.

Tell that same kid to accomplish the same using mechanical gears and hundreds of small pieces...he would probably dedicate his life to the art and still fail. Thats where the study of Horology comes in. That Van Cleef & Arpels Midnight Planétarium Poetic watch? Again, Horologists took the challenge of recreating their vision using gears and a great deal of math. In the end, it's just a technical display of time honored skill and craftsmanship. Aka, showing off.



> Lastly, the Apple Watch does that in a $350 package-out of the box, does the exact same job-




I can take a screenshot of Vincent Van Goh's Starry Night and set it on my Iphones wallpaper. If I wanted to get crafty with it, I could my phone or computer to synchronize with google images and download Van Goh photos every hour. Do I call myself a painter or artisan of any form? I'm just using existing protocols and API's to emulate and recreate my vision more efficiently than Van Goh himself.

Not to downplay the Iphone in anyway, it's an impressive piece of technology. The watch and timekeeping functions are extremely simple and in my view have nothing in common with the art and study of horology. The more accurate definition chronometry, which applies to digital devices, and universally accepted by engineers and historians alike.


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## scentedlead (May 11, 2015)

lxxrr said:


> Apple can develop "complex faces" and timekeeping components with relative ease. Built-in time keeping functions/commands...exist in all programming languages for this very purpose. We can find sample code and algorithms freely available to replicate *any *function of timekeeping on any platform. EG: 5.7. Clocks and Timers | The C++ Standard Library: Utilities | InformIT Timekeeping/Timers are extremely basic to code . Any 15 year old with a computer and basic understanding of programming can recreate Patek level "timekeeping" and output it to any display he wishes.


PHP is not Objective C so I'll leave it to you to reverse engineer the AW's astronomy face and figure out what functions and classes and libraries went into that.

That said, objects are complex because of all that goes into them-everything from the creators of the languages; to the coders who put their areas of expertise into functions, classes, and libraries; to the industrial designers who designed how the watch will be made; and et al-under a product's seeming simplicity may lie a vastness of complexity and that's all because everyone leaned in on everyone else's work.

The art of code comes from everyone that contributed to that code-complexity comes from what everyone has brought and contributed from their systems of knowledge. Code doesn't happen in a vacuum, someone had to put the effort into it. So there are functions and classes and libraries that make an app developer's job easier. Do you negate the work that went into these things and their contributions because the happened early in the chain of development? And complexity is less likely to happen if someone somewhere is lacking in their knowledge; if an app developer doesn't know about UTC or timezones or NTP, I'd be very wary of their clock's accuracy no mattery how much the language they worked in supported concepts of time.




> I can take a screenshot of Vincent Van Goh's Starry Night and set it on my Iphones wallpaper. If I wanted to get crafty with it, I could my phone or computer to synchronize with google images and download Van Goh photos every hour. Do I call myself a painter or artisan of any form? I'm just using existing protocols and API's to emulate and recreate my vision more efficiently than Van Goh himself.


I was going to leave this alone. But then this showed up recently on my Tumblr dashboard:



> "If commercialization is putting my art on a shirt so that a kid who can't afford a $30,000 painting can buy one, then I'm all for it."
> 
> Keith Haring


You don't need USD $30,000 (in 1990 prices). You don't need a train or plain ticket and museum tickets which could be costly depending on where you live. But, for a minimal price, you can enjoy a work of art. And this is important.

The t-shirt printer is not an artist. The t-shirt wearer is not an artist. The t-shirt itself is not a work of art. But! The t-shirt itself displays art. Haring's art will always be his art-no matter the medium of dissemination.



> Not to downplay the Iphone in anyway, it's an impressive piece of technology. The watch and timekeeping functions are extremely simple and in my view have nothing in common with the art and study of horology. The more accurate definition chronometry, which applies to digital devices, and universally accepted by engineers and historians alike.


Are you saying that the horology-art or science of measuring time-and chronometry-the science of accurate time measurement-are two distinct things separate from each other? I view them as overlapping studies. How do you have one without the other? When has horology never aimed for more accuracy? And how do you aim for accurate time without studying time?


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

lxxrr said:


> Apple can develop "complex faces" and timekeeping components with relative ease. Built-in time keeping functions/commands...exist in all programming languages for this very purpose. We can find sample code and algorithms freely available to replicate *any *function of timekeeping on any platform. EG: 5.7. Clocks and Timers | The C++ Standard Library: Utilities | InformIT Timekeeping/Timers are extremely basic to code . Any 15 year old with a computer and basic understanding of programming can recreate Patek level "timekeeping" and output it to any display he wishes.
> 
> Tell that same kid to accomplish the same using mechanical gears and hundreds of small pieces...he would probably dedicate his life to the art and still fail. Thats where the study of Horology comes in. That Van Cleef & Arpels Midnight Planétarium Poetic watch? Again, Horologists took the challenge of recreating their vision using gears and a great deal of math. In the end, it's just a technical display of time honored skill and craftsmanship. Aka, showing off.
> 
> ...


If a professional artist were to paint using a Mac (with a digital pen) or iPad (with fingers), is he/she still an artist?

Is the art in making incredible mechanical movements, or in making incredible time-keeping instruments that are works of art?

Mechanicals is just an instrument in the art of time-keeping. It's an means to and end, not an end in and of itself.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

lxxrr said:


> Apple can develop "complex faces" and timekeeping components with relative ease. Built-in time keeping functions/commands...exist in all programming languages for this very purpose. We can find sample code and algorithms freely available to replicate *any *function of timekeeping on any platform. EG: 5.7. Clocks and Timers | The C++ Standard Library: Utilities | InformIT Timekeeping/Timers are extremely basic to code . * Any 15 year old with a computer and basic understanding of programming can recreate Patek level "timekeeping" and output it to any display he wishes. *


Programming. Easy? How dare you? I can code VB domain log on scripts with the best of them. It's also about the entire process from conception to design to manufacture. To do that and to do it right you need a lot of talented and motivated people. You also need a market because you want to sell them. Mechanicals have a market, digital watches have a market, gps watches have a market and smartwatches have a market are these markets the same? Who knows? Maybe it is maybe it isn't, maybe it will be?

I just have problems with taking a concrete position with these types of things. Technologies come, technologies go. I am such a fence sitter.....


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*


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## lxxrr (Jul 25, 2013)

*Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



eblackmo said:


> Programming. Easy? How dare you? I can code VB domain log on scripts with the best of them. It's also about the entire process from conception to design to manufacture. To do that and to do it right you need a lot of talented and motivated people. You also need a market because you want to sell them. Mechanicals have a market, digital watches have a market, gps watches have a market and smartwatches have a market are these markets the same? Who knows? Maybe it is maybe it isn't, maybe it will be?
> 
> I just have problems with taking a concrete position with these types of things. Technologies come, technologies go. I am such a fence sitter.....


Programming isn't "easy", I was just refuting the argument that in order to code a watches functions you need a "deep understanding of time". It's cake work as all the algorithms, functions, APis exist already.

1) Synchronizing the time using an existing protocol through a API.
2) Emulating time keeping functions from scratch (eg; timers, clocks) using functions already present in the programming language.

The math/algorithms required to calculate just about any complication freely exists for anyone to convert it to the programming language of choice.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



lxxrr said:


> Programming isn't "easy", I was just refuting the argument that in order to code a watches functions you need a "deep understanding of time". It's cake work as all the algorithms, functions, APis exist already.
> 
> 1) Synchronizing the time using an existing protocol through a API.
> 2) Emulating time keeping functions from scratch (eg; timers, clocks) using functions already present in the programming language.


Fair enough. It's just API calls I know. Should have included a  I find this AW/smartwatch topic kind of humorous.


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## eblackmo (Dec 27, 2014)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



lxxrr said:


> Programming isn't "easy", I was just refuting the argument that in order to code a watches functions you need a "deep understanding of time". It's cake work as all the algorithms, functions, APis exist already.
> 
> 1) Synchronizing the time using an existing protocol through a API.
> 2) Emulating time keeping functions from scratch (eg; timers, clocks) using functions already present in the programming language.
> ...


It is probably an area of computer science research. Maybe you could go and write a doctoral thesis on it. Go WUS!


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## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*

This debate could go on forever until of course everyone can agree on the accepted definition.

"Horology refers mainly to the study of mechanical time-keeping devices, while chronometry more broadly includes electronic devices".

The apple communicator has made zero advancements to watchmaking, anything they have done had been introduced many years ago ie electronics, touch displays, case work and even watch face apps like "timefactors". There is nothing new that apple has done with thier communicator. Perhaps someone here can answer one question, can the AC time be set independently to any time desired?

I cannot comment on the possible favoritism for the apple forum itself.


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



dirtvictim said:


> The apple communicator has made zero advancements to watchmaking, anything they have done had been introduced many years ago ie electronics, touch displays, case work and even watch face apps like "timefactors". There is nothing new that apple has done with thier communicator.


Apple has brought a modern smartwatch to market and sold millions so far, with a potential for making it mainstream.

No one else has done this.



dirtvictim said:


> Perhaps someone here can answer one question, can the AC time be set independently to any time desired?


Not yet. But why is this relevant?


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## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



zetaplus93 said:


> Apple has brought a modern smartwatch to market and sold millions so far, with a potential for making it mainstream.
> 
> No one else has done this.
> 
> Not yet. But why is this relevant?


Apple wasn't the first with a smart wrist worn device, this is not debatable it's a fact, others existed prior to the AC. Nothing Apple has done with the AC hasn't been done already. Nothing about the AC fits into the general definition of Horology.
I was just interested to know about the time setting, it matters not.
I think it's humorous that some insist to call this a watch, not that I ever will but if I did own one I would refer to it as my apple communicator, if you are going to wear high tech electronics then why not describe it as such why try to force fit it into a category that it clearly isn't a true part of. 
Anyway I won't reply to any more of this silly debate. If others here haven't figured this all out by now they never will.


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## zetaplus93 (Jul 22, 2013)

*Re: Why does the description of this forum read like an advertisement for Apple w...*



dirtvictim said:


> Apple wasn't the first with a smart wrist worn device, this is not debatable it's a fact, others existed prior to the AC. Nothing Apple has done with the AC hasn't been done already.


Yes, Apple isn't the first to produce a smartwatch or put a screen on it.

Nevertheless, my original statement stands. They're the first to sell a modern smartwatch in the millions and potentially on their way (along with Android watches) to getting mass adoption.



dirtvictim said:


> Nothing about the AC fits into the general definition of Horology.


That's because it's a disruptive technology, which nature doesn't fit into established norms.



dirtvictim said:


> I think it's humorous that some insist to call this a watch, not that I ever will but if I did own one I would refer to it as my apple communicator, if you are going to wear high tech electronics then why not describe it as such why try to force fit it into a category that it clearly isn't a true part of.


I suppose it's the same logic as to why we call modern smartphones "phones" and not mini handheld computers.

BTW, kids nowadays seem to think phones are touchscreen computers that can connect wirelessly. And this makes sense because that's what phones are today, generally speaking.

If the AW (and similar devices) catch on and is success to a certain degree, perhaps kids of the future will think of watches as ______ (fill in the blank) and not as we think today:

http://daringfireball.net/linked/2015/07/27/kids-first-ipod


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