# Raketa Big Zero - The Real Deal?



## Tom_DS (Nov 12, 2012)

Hello

I came across this Raketa Big Zero.
It is advertised as NOS, all original and authentic...

Now the question: Is this the real deal, or a fake?

Thx!!


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## Mister Mike (Nov 11, 2009)

Looks good to me. The leather strap and "USSR Mechanism" inscription indicate that it was one of the models exported to Italy in the 1980s.


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

That's an unusual watch in a few ways. First, the "R2609" calibre mark is uncommon (but legitimate); it was used for a short while, alongside "R2614", "R2628" etc, in place of the usual "2609HA" etc. I have a few watches with the "R" calibre marks.

Second, the "USSR mechanism" printed in Cyrillic on the dial is unusual. I'm slightly surprised to see it on a "domestic" dial (with "Paketa", rather than "Raketa"); it would make more sense to see it in English on an export dial, but who knows?

Third, the bridge is marked "19 Jewels", indicating that it was intended for export, whereas the dial is domestic. On the other hand, it's been rumoured that the factory was not particularly strict about matching parts, so it may have left the factory this way.

Having said all that, all the parts look original and the condition looks excellent.

Cheers,
Paul

[Edit - my post coincided with [Mister Mike]'s. I don't know enough about the Italian exports to know whether they normally had Cyrillic dials or Western dials, but he could be right.]


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

This watch have been commented in many other posts.
It's probably a genuine one.
This particular one was built in France, in Slava Factory of Besançon, with a caliber produced in USSR.


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## Tom_DS (Nov 12, 2012)

Chronotopos said:


> This watch have been commented in many other posts.
> It's a genuine one.
> This particular one was built in France, in Slava Factory of Besançon, with a caliber produced in USSR.


Ow ok, thanks for the info!

So its all original, worth to buy?


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

Chronotopos said:


> This watch have been commented in many other posts.
> It's a genuine one.
> This particular one was built in France, in Slava Factory of Besançon, with a caliber produced in USSR.


That's interesting - are you sure? I have seen "Slava Precision" watches with Raketa movements, made in Besançon (and no relation to Slava in Russia), but I didn't know they made watches with the "Raketa logo on the dial. Do you know anything else about Slava, Besançon?

Paul


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

Hi everybody.
If you want to have your own opinion, just take a look here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/real-raketa-big-zero-750822.html
And try to read these two subjects here on the french forum :
Suspicion Faketa Big Zéro
Big zero R2609 ???


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## Tom_DS (Nov 12, 2012)

So, can we conclude then, that it is an authentic watch, built for the French market, in Slava Factory of Besançon, with a caliber produced in USSR?


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

90% yes, but to definitly close this search and conclude, a member of the french russian watches forum have written several months ago to the man who were the director of Slava Precision Besançon in the eighties, but he received no answers to this day.


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## danimur (Mar 14, 2013)

It doesn't say were is made. It says that it has a CCCP movement. The movement is 2609 HA which was very common in the mid of 70's till the end of the 90's in in the old USSR and is not a genuine 2609. In the 2609 the brigdge is different. No Raketa logo  is present or something to enlighten us where the movement was made. It looks like a Raketa made after 2000 but in my opinion is not a genuine one.
Look at this site too. Ð.ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ñ‹: Ð.Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð° / Russian Watches: Raketa


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## Tom_DS (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm in doubt now... Buy or don't buy...

I've seen a few on google with the same dial, always with the same info that it was one for the french market...

But I don't want to buy a fake, ofcourse...

So I guess, better safe then sorry... And don't buy?


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

It might have been built buy Slava factory in Moscow, Russia with 2609ha design and assembled in Slava Precision in Besançon, France ?

I have to tell you few more informations :
- These watches have been found with papers that proved they have been produced in late 80's or in the beginning of 90's (no dates but french phone-numbers with 8 numbers : and the french phone numbers have 10 numbers since mid 90's)
- 3 sellers are known to sell these watches on eBay : two are from Bordeaux and one from Besançon.
One of the seller have says to me it was an old stock from an old watchmaker living in Bayonne or Biarritz (I can't remember). This watchmaker owned these watches since long time...
- A member of the french forum had a trip few month ago to Saint Petersbourg : he met Samun (Raketa's collector and WUS member), and he shown it's Big-Zero with R2609 caliber to an a watchmaker of the Raketa factory who work there since the beginning of the 80's.
He says : it's not from us !
- Last thing I have to say (because I've owned both) is that this Big Zero is not strictly the same than the “classic” Big Zero : the numbers on dials are a bit bolder, the case is a little bit more glossy and seems to be perhaps just a bit better built. The back cover is completely flat.
The letters of the CCCP strap are also a bit smaller than the letters on italian CCCP straps.

It's now up to you to have your own idea ! ;-)


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

Tom_DS said:


> I'm in doubt now... Buy or don't buy...
> 
> I've seen a few on google with the same dial, always with the same info that it was one for the french market...
> 
> ...


I think the watch cost around 50€ and it's cheap for a so beautiful watch in perfect cosmetic and working condition with it's unique design from soviet 80's.

For me it's a genuine one (and I'm not the seller ! :-d ).

Think also that Luch is producing now it's own little Big-Zero, so, for me even if this watch might have been produced by Slava, it's probably a genuine soviet watch.

(that's only my opinion).

Take a look here to see other Big Zero :
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/show-us-your-raketa-big-zero-884713.html


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## Tom_DS (Nov 12, 2012)

Chronotopos said:


> I think the watch cost around 50€ and it's cheap for a so beautiful watch in perfect cosmetic and working condition with it's unique design from soviet 80's.
> 
> For me it's a genuine one (and I'm not the seller ! :-d ).
> 
> ...


Well its not about the price...

If its 50 or 500 or 5000 .... I find authenticity very important


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

I don't say that I don't care, I only say that regarding to what I know, for me there's many chances that it is a genuine watches.
Perhaps around 90% to my opinion.
For this low price, I thought it was an acceptable risk to take.
... And no, sorry, for me 50, 500 and 5000 it's not the same.
For 5000, or even 500, I will take no risks !...

I've sometimes bought customs (only one Seiko in fact) but I'm against fake and I also don't really like franken but I don't consider this big Zero as one, or as a copy.
I also think that even if the original design of the Big Zero was from Raketa, in soviet times it has no means : every watch factory probably could use it without any answers of who own the rights.
That's probably why Slava, during soviet era, but also Luch recently (and Luch was part of the soviet watch industry before ussr collapse), have used a similar design to produce some of their watches.

I am more suspicious (and very angry to be honest) when I see this :










Or that :



emoscambio said:


>


(See more here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/fake-raketa-big-zero-made-china-888475.html#post6541579)


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

Here is a watch with R2609 that seems old :
часы ракета петербургский метрополитен (3381491479) - купить на торговой площадке, интернет-аукционе Молоток.Ру


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

//It might have been built buy Slava factory in Moscow, Russia with 2609ha design and assembled in Slava Precision in Besançon, France ?//

Slava, France has no connection with Slava, Moscow. My understanding is that Slava Precision watches were built from Raketa components in a factory in France, by Russians (!).

Perhaps [samum] can confirm this.


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

phd said:


> [...]My understanding is that Slava Precision watches were built from Raketa components in a factory in France, by Russians (!)[...]


Hi phd.
My own understanding is that Raketa Big Zero by Slava Precision were built from russian Raketa calibers in the Slava Precision factory in France, by french people, with russian Raketa layouts.

I've thought about this other hypothesis of Slava Moscow who could have produced the calibers because the R2609 is not strictly identical than the Raketa 2609.ha and have no Raketa sign on it.
And also because what I've said some posts before :


> A member of the french forum had a trip few month ago to Saint Petersbourg : he met Samun (Raketa's collector and WUS member), and he shown it's Big-Zero with R2609 caliber to an a watchmaker of the Raketa factory who work there since the beginning of the 80's.
> He says : it's not from us !


I hope Samun will give us it's opinion.

For now, what I thought is that near to 1990, french Slava Precision factory in Besançon as build the whole watches except the calibers which provide from russian Raketa factory.
Slava Precision french factory closed in 2004.

But now somebody tells me that the caliber is probably not from Raketa, so I try to find another solution to explain which soviet factory could have produce it...
I hope to be clear, sorry for my english... :-(


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

//the R2609 is not strictly identical than the Raketa 2609.ha//

As far as I know, the only difference is the stamp on the bridge. I also have movements stamped "R2609H" and "R2609HA", and also R2614 and R2628 (as well as R2609). My understanding is that it was only a change in the nomenclature - do you have any evidence of differences between the "R" and "H/HA" movements?

EDIT: I found this comment from [chascomm] in another thread: _"The 'R' designation is the same as the 'S' on Slava movements and the 'P' on Poljot movements that was adopted in the 1980s. I don't know how long they kept the factory prefixes, or whether it was limited to export movements. The thing about later Raketa watches is there seems to have been quite a few assembled from old stock parts prior to the first factory closure, and after reopening they were all spare-parts watches to some extent, I think."_

Paul


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## Chronotopos (Dec 27, 2012)

_*Danimur*_ says in the 10th post that bridge is different beetween 2609ha and the R2609.
As I can't verify on my own watches (I've given my french Big Zero to a friend, as a present), I also can't spend my day to compare.
I've posted many weblinks that I've read months ago.
I'm sorry but I've no time to read them another time.
I read all of you here and if somebody tells me that there's something is different, I trust him and hope he have checked before, and I try to think about another explaination...

I've told you what I've read before.
If you tell me I'm wrong and if you tell me why, I will agree !


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## skapig (Oct 13, 2012)

Chronotopos said:


> - Last thing I have to say (because I've owned both) is that this Big Zero is not strictly the same than the "classic" Big Zero : the numbers on dials are a bit bolder...


While I do not own the french version to compare to, I do have a half dozen or so various zeros. I believe the bolder, crisper dial is also common to the later "CCCP" zeros that have the Quality Rosette. The black paint has a thicker glossier look to it.

While we are on the topic of bogus zeros... what do y'all think about the dials that have cropped up recently on eBay? Based on the photo it looks like there are a whole lot of them. They look legit to me, but the quantity makes me wonder if they are the work of a franken master. Listing 111107610830.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

danimur said:


> It doesn't say were is made. It says that it has a CCCP movement. The movement is 2609 HA which was very common in the mid of 70's till the end of the 90's in in the old USSR and is not a genuine 2609. In the 2609 the brigdge is different. No Raketa logo  is present or something to enlighten us where the movement was made. It looks like a Raketa made after 2000 but in my opinion is not a genuine one.
> Look at this site too. Ð.ÑƒÑ�Ñ�ÐºÐ¸Ðµ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ñ‹: Ð.Ð°ÐºÐµÑ‚Ð° / Russian Watches: Raketa


The design is the 2609HA as you said. Nobody but Raketa has ever made a movement that looks like that.

Regarding the lack of 'HA', so far as I am aware, 1980s Soviet export movements bearing the Latin Prefix ('R' for Raketa, 'P' for Poljot, 'S' for Slava, etc) never included the Cyrillic suffix ('HA', '.2H', etc). Also, a lack of manufacturer's branding on the movement was not necessarily unusual in this period as the maker was implied in the prefix. The lack of 'SU' stamp seems more unusual to me.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

phd said:


> As far as I know, the only difference is the stamp on the bridge. I also have movements stamped "R2609H" and "R2609HA", and also R2614 and R2628 (as well as R2609). My understanding is that it was only a change in the nomenclature - do you have any evidence of differences between the "R" and "H/HA" movements?


Thanks for that. So my comment earlier that the Latin prefix and Cyrillic suffix are never combined is incorrect.

As regards there being _another manufacturer_ of Raketa-looking movements, the problem is that there should be abundant evidence (ebay etc) of such movements occuring _only_ in watches that show evidence of being _not_ made by Raketa. Manufacturing a complete movement is no small business. The cost of setting up the tooling is enormous and considerable production is required to pay back the investment. For example, if one of the movement manufacturers in Besançon were to set up to make Raketa movements (presumably in agreement with Raketa) then we would expect to see some of these movements appearing in other French-branded watches.


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## emoscambio (Nov 29, 2007)

As far as I know, the Soviet (!) company Slava in France just assembled watches from ready Soviet movements. The dial was printed in France, the case would have been made in France or in the USSR.
The French workers were treated just the same way as in any capitalist company, and there was at least one famous strike.

Mai 1978:
"Slava (Besançon) : victoire contre les patrons soviétiques"
(see page 6)

July 1977:
Grève à la SLAVA (Besançon) La grande peur d'un patron russe (de notre envoyé spécial Philippe Leclerq)
(page 23 )

"Slava Precision" was founded in July 1989.

Perhaps fcafca wants to call them?
http://www.e-pro-grossiste.fr/doubs...biens-de-consommation/slava-precision_f126271
http://www.businesspme.com/entreprise/164851/slava-precision.html#destination-4

Recently, 24-30 employees
http://dirigeant.societe.com/dirigeant/Pierre.AUBACH.81362807.html

Or was there a stop of production in 2006 and a bankruptcy on 20 July 2009?

http://www.score3.fr/SLAVA-PRECISION-353074107.shtml
http://www.societe.com/societe/slava-precision-353074107.html


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

//Regarding the lack of 'HA', so far as I am aware, 1980s Soviet export movements bearing the Latin Prefix ('R' for Raketa, 'P' for Poljot, 'S' for Slava, etc) never included the Cyrillic suffix ('HA', '.2H', etc)//

I have a few undoubtedly Raketa movements with the bridges marked "R2609HA" and "R2609H".


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## emoscambio (Nov 29, 2007)




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## emoscambio (Nov 29, 2007)

Sorry!


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## fhp (Jun 14, 2012)

emoscambio said:


> As far as I know, the Soviet (!) company Slava in France just assembled watches from ready Soviet movements. The dial was printed in France, the case would have been made in France or in the USSR.
> The French workers were treated just the same way as in any capitalist company, and there was at least one famous strike.
> 
> Mai 1978:
> ...


Hi,

I posted on Forum Montres Russes about that curious Big Zero that I bought from a man here in Paris. I was very surprised and first, I believed it was a fake so I asked opinions here on wus forum and FMR french forum.

And finally, after some searches, I have sent a letter to Pierre Aubach (the french manager) few monthes ago in order to understand the true story of that Big Zero made in Besançon. But he did not answer. Very strange... and disapointed because I believe it would have been a good solution to have explanations. I think it will be more difficult to have a contact with the other manager, mr Korolev, as the company doesn't longer exist!

If I have some free time, I will try to contact local medias in Besançon to learn more about that company whose name was given to the commercial aera of Besançon.

Have a nice day


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## fhp (Jun 14, 2012)

emoscambio said:


> As far as I know, the Soviet (!) company Slava in France just assembled watches from ready Soviet movements. The dial was printed in France, the case would have been made in France or in the USSR.
> The French workers were treated just the same way as in any capitalist company, and there was at least one famous strike.
> 
> Mai 1978:
> ...


Hi,

I posted on Forum Montres Russes about that curious Big Zero that I bought from a man here in Paris. I was very surprised and first, I believed it was a fake so I asked opinions here on wus forum and FMR french forum.

And finally, after some searches, I have sent a letter to Pierre Aubach (the french manager) few monthes ago in order to understand the true story of that Big Zero made in Besançon. But he did not answer. Very strange... and disapointed because I believe it would have been a good solution to have explanations. I think it will be more difficult to have a contact with the other manager, mr Korolev, as the company doesn't longer exist!

If I have some free time, I will try to contact local medias in Besançon to learn more about that company whose name was given to the commercial aera of Besançon.

Have a nice day


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## Tuicamaniac (Mar 2, 2019)

Hi all, lets start this again,

Just like the original poster I own a Big Zero :






















Although it's not a "french" Big Zero it has the R-2609 caliber... Theoric not genuine (not the original factory caliber) but what's the point in changing a caliber to the very same one ? Franken or... ?


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