# Let's cut to the chase--WHATS THE MOST ACCURATE WATCH I CAN BUY TODAY??



## UltraMagnetic

........at any price?

Is there such a thing as "the world's most accurate wristwatch" today?

Like the Omega Marine Chronometer was back then?

:thanks:thanks in advance


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## RPF

The Citizen Chronomaster with the A660 module is spec-ed to 5s p/y accuracy.

The next best are the ETA thermolines, Seiko 8J/9F and Citizen E510 spec-ed to 10s p/y.

As for absolute accuracy, the ETA thermolines can be owner adjusted to an accuracy of 1-2s p/y. That can be done but it involves careful record keeping for months on end.


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## ppaulusz

UltraMagnetic said:


> ........at any price?
> 
> Is there such a thing as "the world's most accurate wristwatch" today?


The honest answer is: no there is not a single wristwatch that can be named the "_world's most accurate wristwatch_".
On the other hand I do believe that thermocompensated movements with the "_inhibition_" (_digital count adjustment_) technology offer the best solution for accurate timekeeping.


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> The Citizen Chronomaster with the A660 module is spec-ed to 5s p/y accuracy.
> 
> The next best are the ETA thermolines, Seiko 8J/9F and Citizen E510 spec-ed to 10s p/y.
> 
> As for absolute accuracy, the ETA thermolines can be owner adjusted to an accuracy of 1-2s p/y. That can be done but it involves careful record keeping for months on end.


I think, factory specifications should be compared on _level field _and if you carefully read the Citizen and ETA specifications you will see that the conditions (to meet specifications) are different.
I'm pretty sure that in the service centres the Citizen A660 and the Seiko 9F movements can be fine-tuned just as sharply as the ETA Thermolines. 
Marketing slogans aside, the above movements offer very similar technologies (probably identical) so their performances should reflect that.


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## M4tt

The world's most accurate wristwatch of all time was also a Citizen and that hit three seconds a year. They are kind of rare though; I'm not aware of anyone who actually owns one...


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## RPF

Yes, I agree about the wear condition imposed on the Citizen and Seiko, which can be interpreted as somewhat sneaky. And I also wonder if that's the reason Breitling specs their SQ to 15s (they expect their watches to be exposed to greater delta T, e.g. deep divers). Truth is, I don't know.

Even so, I still think a 5s p/y 10 year Japan guarantee is pretty good indication of a company who believes in the performance and durability of their product.


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> ...As for absolute accuracy, the ETA thermolines can be owner adjusted to an accuracy of 1-2s p/y. That can be done but it involves careful record keeping for months on end.


The benefit of the ETA Thermolines and earlier dual-oscillator thermocompensated ETA movements is that
- the service manuals are widely available for the public as well.
- the markings on the movements are easily recognisable for the calibration procedure.
- there is no need for special (professional-grade) tools to carry out the calibration task.
While in case of the Seiko 9F movements the all important service manuals are not available for the public therefor it is more challenging to calibrate the movements by the users. On these Seiko movements the "_calibration hole_" is easily recognisable but no markings on the movements to indicate the steps of the adjustment so it is a hit and miss exercise for the owner to attempt the calibration.
Most thermocompensated Citizen movements lack the option for calibration: all the Eco-Drive ones including unfortunately the top model E510 as well.
However the Citizen A660 must have some form of calibration option though it is only accessible by the service centre. Since Citizen and Seiko don't share much technical info about their most accurate quartz movements we don't know as much about them as we do about the ETA movements.
If one likes the option of the user adjustable accuracy setting then one should appreciate the thermocompensated ETA movements.


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## ppaulusz

M4tt said:


> The world's most accurate wristwatch of all time was also a Citizen and that hit three seconds a year. They are kind of rare though; I'm not aware of anyone who actually owns one...


... and I am not aware of any report by end-user(s) confirming the claimed accuracy. We also lack info about the conditions set in the specifications. I have serious doubts about the validity of the _+/- 3 seconds per year_ claim in case of the _Citizen Cryston Mega_.


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> ..,.I still think a 5s p/y 10 year Japan guarantee is pretty good indication of a company who believes in the performance and durability of their product.


I share your view but the question was: whether it makes it the most accurate in the world? I don't think that it does so. Is there any better than this? I don't think that either. There are a few that perform alike, in my opinion.


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## RPF

Yup, we come back full circle on the ETA vs. Japan debacle for which there are no clear winners.

It all depends on how _specific_ the question is, for which "most accurate wristwatch" is certainly much too vague.

Assuming the average owner/collector/enthusiast isn't too keen to tinker with their watches, I think specs are the best way to go in answering a question like that for a current production watch.

I may be wrong but for me, it gets too involved otherwise explaining the _why_ for what may very well be a casual question.


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> Yes, I agree about the wear condition imposed on the Citizen and Seiko, which can be interpreted as somewhat sneaky. And I also wonder if that's the reason Breitling specs their SQ to 15s (they expect their watches to be exposed to greater delta T, e.g. deep divers). Truth is, I don't know...


I don't know either... but I have a strong feeling that Breitling is happy with the COSC certificate and don't really care about anything else.
Citizen and Seiko know it very well that the wear condition can only reduce the chance for out of specification accuracy results. It is their insurance policy...


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## M4tt

Or perhaps just answer the question in two flavours: the most accurate Occidental movement and the most accurate Oriental movement.
That makes the answer the Citizen and the ETA depending on preference.

However, If the question was 'the best rather than simply most accurate' then I suspect that everyone would agree that it has to be the Seiko 9F 

First ly it is right up there with the best. However, to be that accurate is one thing, to be that accurate for fifty years without a service, that is quite another! To my mind it has to be the hands down winner.

And you all know how much I like the E510!


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> Yup, we come back full circle on the ETA vs. Japan debacle for which there are no clear winners...
> 
> Assuming the average owner/collector/enthusiast isn't too keen to tinker with their watches, I think specs are the best way to go in answering a question like that for a current production watch...


I agree that there is no clear winner but I disagree that it is an ETA vs Japanese debacle. It applies to Citizen vs Seiko as well.

I also disagree with your "specs are the best way to go" opinion about accuracy issues. Here is my analogy for the specs dilemma: Can I claim that I can run faster than you on level field by stating that I can run 100m distance in 11 seconds downhill and you only can run the same distance in 18 seconds uphill?
Your approach for answering my question should also be applied when the accuracy claims of the watch manufacturers are compared to each others.


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## ppaulusz

M4tt said:


> ...And you all know how much I like the E510!


If calibration feature would be an option on the E510 then it would be the number one movement in my book too!:-! Not just for accuracy but rather for features. Accuracy-wise it would be with the very best as well.
Or let's give Eco-Drive function to the A660 or the ETA 252.611 and we have the perfect movement feature-wise and accuracy-wise as well.


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## RPF

Hmmm, the way I see it, the difference between the Japanese and ETA is in the adjustability, both in terms of mechanism and technical instruction for doing so. 

As far as actual performance is concerned, I don't think any of these fine movements will stray far from their stated specs, worn on arm or not. There'll be duds for sure, but by and large, my experience with the Exceed and GS is well within specs. 

However, the fact remains I can make a warranty claim if the Citizen goes to 6s p/y whereas for the thermoline, I can only do so if it goes to 11s p/y. Not to mention the Swiss/German watch will have a valid warranty of 12/24 months only. 

This topic rapidly gets too technical for a single line question don't you think? Too much subtlety there.


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## roba

ppaulusz said:


> ... and I am not aware of any report by end-user(s) _..._.


There's a reason for that, they're , er, not exactly pretty ;-)


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## ppaulusz

RPF said:


> ...However, the fact remains I can make a warranty claim if the Citizen goes to 6s p/y whereas for the thermoline, I can only do so if it goes to 11s p/y...


You are missing the point here: the question is whether we can rely on the factory specifications when we would like to establish which watch is the most accurate?
Lately you are talking about warranty issues that has little to do with the question in the thread. I mean we can talk about adjusting the accuracy on the ETA thermocompensated movements in steps of 0.33 second per month. That would be better - in my opinion - than sending the watch back to Japan for a couple of weeks but would not answer the question of the thread either.
Again the question: Can we use the current manufacturers' specifications to establish which watch is the most accurate?
I think the answer is clear: No we can't and we won't as long as manufacturers can't get together and agree on identical conditions for the specifications. That won't happen, I can guarantee that!;-)


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## rex

*When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*

http://www.fototime.com/{91C07D19-5F0C-44DD-927A-AA95835DFCD2}/picture.JPG
If that means anything. :-!



UltraMagnetic said:


> ........at any price?
> 
> Is there such a thing as "the world's most accurate wristwatch" today?
> 
> Like the Omega Marine Chronometer was back then?
> 
> :thanks:thanks in advance


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## Bruce Reding

ppaulusz said:


> ... and I am not aware of any report by end-user(s) confirming the claimed accuracy. We also lack info about the conditions set in the specifications. I have serious doubts about the validity of the _+/- 3 seconds per year_ claim in case of the _Citizen Cryston Mega_.


I suspect that, as issued and for a few years thereafter, as long as wear caveats similar to what Citizen make today, these met their stated spec. I say this because, at that time, and given the cost, these were prbably hero efforts with much skilled effort for final crystal angle tuning and subsequent regulation lavished on each movement. These were pride pieces. It would be interesting to see how the survivors are working today.


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## Bruce Reding

roba said:


> There's a reason for that, they're , er, not exactly pretty ;-)


Different strokes for different folks, Robert! I like the look. Very seventies, but not gaudy as seventies designs so often were.


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## vizi

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



rex said:


> http://www.fototime.com/{91C07D19-5F0C-44DD-927A-AA95835DFCD2}/picture.JPG
> If that means anything. :-!


Very beautiful watch:-!,from the movements no picture?


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## RPF

ppaulusz said:


> You are missing the point here: the question is whether we can rely on the factory specifications when we would like to establish which watch is the most accurate?


I get your point, which involves a great deal of knowledge to understand the subtleties behind the specs.

What I was trying to illustrate is from the perspective of a normal watch owner who's not interested in the specifics and I believe that's the approach of the OP. That is why I suggest looking at the specs and brought in the warranty issue.

Those are the only concrete things I can say without muddying the water more by either _saying all these are good_ or _there isn't such a watch_. Yes there're no common standards among them but they surely can't be too different to be irrelevant. Specs do give a degree of confidence to where it matters, performance on wrist.

Anyway, it's just two different points of view to answering the question.


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## Eeeb

ppaulusz said:


> You are missing the point here: the question is whether we can rely on the factory specifications when we would like to establish which watch is the most accurate?


Yes... just like car horsepower and stereo power... until they saw the need for an industry trade association to set definitive standards you could get numbers all over the place!

I agree, there is no industry pressure currently existent for creation of such a standard today.

Hummm.... I wonder if there is some ANSI committee that has watches? Anyone know? If so, *WE *could propose a standard!! |>

There is such an ISO committee but I found ISO's standard process to be less conducive to such activity (I used to do computer standards part time in a past life).


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## ltgary

Why is it that a watch can be awarded a COSC certificate for 15 days of testing but no manufacturers submit their watches to the French labs for the 46 days of testing needed to earn the title of marine chronometer. Those tests, if they still exist, were much more stringent than the swiss and might settle the question of which watch is currently the most accurate.


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## RPF

One word: Chronometer.

Only a Swiss Made movement can be tested and certified as a chronometer because COSC currently owns the legal rights to this, can we say "trademark"? It's well defined by the standards but not absolute.

One can pass whatever test (German, French, Japanese, ISO) but when all that gives is a certificate and not the marketing right for a chronometer, that's a major disadvantage. 

It's a complicated world out there.


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## M4tt

Amusingly the only HEQ with a chronometer rating that I own is the Krieger and that is the least accurate of all of my HEQ. It isn't even as accurate as the JLC Mecaquartz which isn't even thermocomp (afaik) but is clearly set up very very carefully as it reliably, and remarkably hits five seconds a month - unless you put it in the fridge (curious minds must know!).

Personally I have a slight preference for Japanese quartz and Swiss mechanical. I just think that the Japanese are slightly more passionate about quartz. As far as which is better that is always going to be difficult to settle when we are talking about seconds a year. 

As anyone who reads this forum knows my most accurate and favourite HEQ is the Citizen Exceed. This has managed bugger all deviation in a year. My Omega Constellation Perpetual was about three seconds behind that. All the rest are scattered over around a minute or less out apart from the Krieger which is a source of dismay to me. I don't know about the new Grand but it hasn't lost anything in a week - which is a start.

It irritates me that I know that there is a definitive answer which we will not be able to acess.


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## Eeeb

Actually, state of the art long passed any of the existent criteria for time keeping certification. 

Certification exists only for marketing and the assurance, for mechanical watches, that the watch is about as good as can be built on a mass basis and for quartz watches, that the watch has some sort of thermocompensation.


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## M4tt

Total agreement with that.


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## ppaulusz

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



vizi said:


> Very beautiful watch:-!,from the movements no picture?


No, unfortunately no high resolution picture available of the A660 movement. In our forum many participating members own that great watch and not one of them got the trouble of making a nice shot of the movement. Strange... Is it forbidden by Citizen?:-s


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## artec

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



ppaulusz said:


> No, unfortunately no high resolution picture available of the A660 movement. In our forum many participating members own that great watch and not one of them got the trouble of making a nice shot of the movement. Strange... Is it forbidden by Citizen?:-s


I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be afraid to open up one of my Chronomasters for fear I bugger up a gasket or drop a cat-hair or a bird'snest into it or something equally dire. There's no warning in the manual about taking the back off, so maybe I'll gather up my courage and try a few shots.

If I may change the subject for a moment, to one we've discussed before, the regulation of the 8F movement and its kin is really limited, isn't it. You can pick either the P1 or the P2 pattern to cut if you want to go in one direction or both if you want to go in the other direction. I guess the moral is that you've really got to be sure of your watches performance before you do anything....... talk about "Measure twice, cut once!" The smallest adjustment is equivalent to 11.68 seconds a year in one direction and twice that, 23.4 sec, in the other. I'm not arguing with anyone, or seeking to inform, merely commentng that, while I suppose even this much regulation capability is better than nothing, it really is pretty limited, isn't it?


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## Bruce Reding

Check out the second post in the "Pictures of notable movements" sticky.


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## ppaulusz

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



artec said:


> ...If I may change the subject for a moment, to one we've discussed before, the regulation of the 8F movement and its kin is really limited, isn't it. You can pick either the P1 or the P2 pattern to cut if you want to go in one direction or both if you want to go in the other direction. I guess the moral is that you've really got to be sure of your watches performance before you do anything....... talk about "Measure twice, cut once!" The smallest adjustment is equivalent to 11.68 seconds a year in one direction and twice that, 23.4 sec, in the other. I'm not arguing with anyone, or seeking to inform, merely commentng that, while I suppose even this much regulation capability is better than nothing, it really is pretty limited, isn't it?


Yes, you're right it is very limited or rather harsh but better than nothing.


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## ppaulusz

Bruce Reding said:


> Check out the second post in the "Pictures of notable movements" sticky.


Bruce, I am famous for making bad quality pics of watches and occasionally posting them in this forum. However my pictures of the movements are somewhat better quality. So let me say, that particular photo of the Citizen A660 is probably the best available on the net but I would not call it high-resolution. Check my movement shots in the same sticky for comparison. I know I'm a bit demanding... but for a reason...;-) It's a shame that we could not come up with a proper photo of that superb movement.


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## Bruce Reding

I agree, George. It's at best a marginally decent shot. If I had any guts (and didn't want to void the warranty), I'd pop the back off of mine and take some good shots.


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## Eeeb

Come on Bruce, how are they going to know you popped off the back? (Aside from reading this forum... :think


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## RogerE

Eeeb said:


> Come on Bruce, how are they going to know you popped off the back? (Aside from reading this forum... :think


I own three of these watches, and it is not my intention to send them back to Japan for a battery change. When one of them needs a battery I'll take some high res pictures...everyone needs to be patient, though:-!.


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## UltraMagnetic

WOW!!!

i was just expecting a make/model.....:-d:-d

No, I understand thats a vague question (even though its actually a pretty direct one)


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## Revlis

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*

Ummm, Wouldn't one of Casio's "atomics" be far more accurate than any NON RF receiving watch?

Or is this just sucking all of the fun outta things? Kinda like the Automatic folks all giddy that they ONLY loose a few seconds a day and need to be serviced every year or so?



You figure the Atomic standards are THE reference for time, and these watches tune to that 2-6 times a day... Seems to me that it's a pretty simple answer, though it doesn't address the question, perhaps the question is moot?


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## Bruce Reding

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



Revlis said:


> Ummm, Wouldn't one of Casio's "atomics" be far more accurate than any NON RF receiving watch?
> 
> Or is this just sucking all of the fun outta things? Kinda like the Automatic folks all giddy that they ONLY loose a few seconds a day and need to be serviced every year or so?
> 
> 
> 
> You figure the Atomic standards are THE reference for time, and these watches tune to that 2-6 times a day... Seems to me that it's a pretty simple answer, though it doesn't address the question, perhaps the question is moot?


Your comment about the automatics is right on. We get pretty excited by how well a watch can do standalone. A true test of its horological cojones. RC watches are interesting technology from the point of view of the radio technology, but tend to have pedestrian quartz movements.


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## RPF

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



Revlis said:


> Ummm, Wouldn't one of Casio's "atomics" be far more accurate than any NON RF receiving watch?
> 
> Or is this just sucking all of the fun outta things? Kinda like the Automatic folks all giddy that they ONLY loose a few seconds a day and need to be serviced every year or so?
> 
> 
> 
> You figure the Atomic standards are THE reference for time, and these watches tune to that 2-6 times a day... Seems to me that it's a pretty simple answer, though it doesn't address the question, perhaps the question is moot?


There's little high-end stuff about the quartz end of the timekeeping in atomic watches. They're still spec-ed to 15s p/m with no signal.


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## obie

thats a whole bunch of ifs and or butts. Ian, just get a Sinn ux and be happy. no technical voodoo just 1 second off in 6 months. pretty good for a liquid immersed movementb-)


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## highvista

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*



Revlis said:


> You figure the Atomic standards are THE reference for time, and these watches tune to that 2-6 times a day... Seems to me that it's a pretty simple answer, though it doesn't address the question, perhaps the question is moot?


For those of us in the hinterlands of reception for the RC signal, we often can't get a reliable update for days at a time. So, an intrinsically accurate movement is the only way to assure consistent accuracy.


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## RogerE

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*

I agree! May as well use your cellphone for time keeping. No elegance in that - relying on 'the Man' for the time.


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## Eeeb

*Re: When I wore mine for a whole year in 2007, it gained 1 second.>>*

The myth that the cellphone is an accurate timekeeper seems to be pervasive...


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## ronalddheld

When did that "rumor" start?


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## Eeeb

I don't know when the myth that a cellphone tells you accurate time started. Most don't even display seconds...


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## Aleasta

Seiko Astron GPS solar


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## ronalddheld

Aleasta said:


> Seiko Astron GPS solar


That watch has no HAQ accuracy as it is not TC.
This thread did not need bumping, so i may close it.


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## Matt Sutton

The most accurate watch I can buy today?

"buy": Purchase with internationally recognized currency to transfer ownership.

"Today": This means that the watch must already exist, and is available for purchase. (Not what can be manufactured if you had unlimited resources). 

"Accurate": Accuracy of a wrist watch is generally measured by a set of specifications. Accuracy specifications historically include such details as, positions in which the watch is worn, temperature, and status of power supply. Each of these have an impact on time keeping consistency over time. The daily, monthly, annual deviations should consistent. 

Having said that, the Citizen Chronomaster with the A660 movement is that watch to answer the question. 

Note: Consumer HEQ watches are not intended to be adjusted by the owner, but require periodic battery replacement and adjustment at the factory to meet OEM specifications. Once an uncertified owner attempts to adjust accuracy, it no longer meets factory specifications or warranty, even if it happens to keep more consistent time.


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