# PanAm GMT may have some legs: WooHoo!!!!!



## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Looks like my personal favorite pet project is more than just a dream: see Bill's comment in the NYC GTG thread -

https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/att...-4-2-11-a-521887-post3823594.html#post3823594

Now, just give me a minute while I pick myself up off the floor.......


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

summer 2015?


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

Great! As said, I will happily shift my Project 300 deposit to a Pan Am deposit. I would love to see a black dialed version of the Key West (serious name dropping here ;-) ) on my wrist.

Menno


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Summer 2015? I wouldnt care if it was summer of 2020!!! This would be an AMAZING watch. I cant wait to discuss on Saturday.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

Interested in hearing about Project 300. Anyone want to volunteer to record minutes for the rest of us? 

Curious about the LRRP as well... :think:


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## bob m (Apr 2, 2010)

new york is a bit too far for me from DC for a saturday gtg...but I like the poster above me, would love to hear anything about the project 300!!!!


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

Yep, awesome news on the PanAm GMT!


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## eganwh (Jan 15, 2009)

Put a plug in for a white dial option. Please, please, please....;-)


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## Coyote555 (Mar 27, 2011)

Having just picked up one of Bill's LRRP's I am very pleased with the attention he gives to the watch. I would be very excited if he came out with a Vintage GMT black face in a 40mm with a 20mm braclet. Also a 40mm LRRP


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Seriously guys - we need to call this thing the "Pussy Galore" in keeping with the Bond tie-ins.

Only a white-faced version should be "PanAm".


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

More cool images here:

http://rolex.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpost&fi=732&pi=4147046&ti=659001


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

I've said it before, and I'll repeat it here again, the White dial homage "Pan Am" GMT would be a must have for me. I might even sell one of my Rolexes to buy one if this project comes to fruition. It's got my vote!!:-!:-! 
Arthur


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## kmangino47 (Sep 18, 2010)

I would be in for the GMT!!!!!


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## Cowbiker (Jun 27, 2007)

Black dail and dwarf GMT and I'm in, bakalite insert and I'd buy two. ;-)

Still die-hard anti-cyclops and still would love to see plexi.

Black dial and the dwarf gmt are the deal-markers for me.

Bakalite and plexi would just be gravy.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Bill said he is leaning strongly towards aluminum bezels for a variety of reasons. I think the crystal is going to be a huge discussion topic when this thing gets to the planning stage.

Someone at the GTG actually told Bill to just make the PanAm using his own judgement rather than try to cram all of the suggestions into the watch.

I'd be pretty happy with a non-gilt black dial, small GMT hand, aluminum Pepsi. Roulette wheel would be nice. I'd like a cyclops for a change, but then only to show off that roulette wheel!!!


Oh, and I'm #2 in line... b-)


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## justsellbrgs (Jan 31, 2008)

TheDude said:


> Oh, and I'm #2 in line... b-)


...then you must be holding Charlie's spot....:-d


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

I personally do not prefer a cyclops. But I will probably buy this watch whatever happens


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

In all honesty after drooling over photos of the Kingston, I'd happily move my Project 300 deposit to the PanAm "Pussy Galore'... just saying :-x


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## bompi (Jul 21, 2007)

Well, I'd enjoy a cyclops. I mean a REAL one, not one of these pathetic fake you can find on many low end watches.
It would then be a 2.5x cyclops. And it would be great !


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

bompi said:


> Well, I'd enjoy a cyclops. I mean a REAL one, not one of these pathetic fake you can find on many low end watches.
> It would then be a 2.5x cyclops. And it would be great !


My Dad used to say "If you're going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all". This is one of those cases when I agree (both with Bompi, AND my Dad). One of the reasons that I eschew watches with date windows is that - by the time you reach the age of fifty - that feature is rendered virtually useless: you eyes become so far sighted that most people can't see the number itself, never mind actually READING the date. The beautiful symmetry of a watch face is often destroyed by a date window, but it is something that we esthetically accept for the sake of gaining the function.

Rolex understood this early on, and within a few years of offering a date function on their watches included a way to meaningfully magnify the date window: hence the cyclops. All of the other watches that offer that optical bump without significantly magnifying the date are, well, as he would also have said "It's as useless as t*ts on a bull". I have no idea what it will take for Bill to achieve that kind of magnification on his crystal, but if he can do it, great, I'm in. If not, don't waste your time or energy on it. None of your other watches have a decorative cyclops, so I wouldn't add one here. But, 2.5x magnification (just as in the original) would be just fine.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

justsellbrgs said:


> ...then you must be holding Charlie's spot....:-d


Bill told me that someone else had #1 but that I could be #2. You saying there were already two slots taken? Not sure Bill remembered.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

cpotters said:


> My Dad used to say "If you're going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all". This is one of those cases when I agree (both with Bompi, AND my Dad). One of the reasons that I eschew watches with date windows is that - by the time you reach the age of fifty - that feature is rendered virtually useless: you eyes become so far sighted that most people can't see the number itself, never mind actually READING the date. The beautiful symmetry of a watch face is often destroyed by a date window, but it is something that we esthetically accept for the sake of gaining the function.
> 
> Rolex understood this early on, and within a few years of offering a date function on their watches included a way to meaningfully magnify the date window: hence the cyclops. All of the other watches that offer that optical bump without significantly magnifying the date are, well, as he would also have said "It's as useless as t*ts on a bull". I have no idea what it will take for Bill to achieve that kind of magnification on his crystal, but if he can do it, great, I'm in. If not, don't waste your time or energy on it. None of your other watches have a decorative cyclops, so I wouldn't add one here. But, 2.5x magnification (just as in the original) would be just fine.


I'm mainly interested in the cyclops to show off the red date numerals (assuming we get a roulette date wheel).

Having so much effort go into the date is pointless if it can't be seen clearly from afar.


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## justsellbrgs (Jan 31, 2008)

TheDude said:


> Bill told me that someone else had #1 but that I could be #2. You saying there were already two slots taken? Not sure Bill remembered.


I'm pulling your chain, it's a joke.


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

Upon further reflection, I've changed my mind. If this cyclops can be done right, like Charlie says, I'd be down for that. Equally happy with no cyclops. Sad with a poor cyclops.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

-THIS- is why we need a cyclops.


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

TheDude said:


> -THIS- is why we need a cyclops.


If the date wheel can be red that will be a clincher!


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Izzy said:


> If the date wheel can be red that will be a clincher!


We have been asking for a "roulette" wheel. Red/Black/Red/Black. Shots of the same watch - as you can see, odd is black and even is red...


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

TheDude said:


> We have been asking for a "roulette" wheel. Red/Black/Red/Black. Shots of the same watch - as you can see, odd is black and even is red...


Even better!! Fantastic. Thanks for the clarification. I will be up for this one.


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

how about using the vintage coffee kind of lume which panerai used recently on one of their pieces?


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

tmoris said:


> how about using the vintage coffee kind of lume which panerai used recently on one of their pieces?


I suggested this to Bill at the GTG but he grimaced. I think more at the complexities that multiple lume options caused with the Kingston.

My Panerai has this kind of lume and I think it's fantastic. I would argue it is far better than the green C3 for a "vintage" option.


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

As long as there is still a white lume option, I am happy. It seems to me that a darker coffee colored lume is fake patina. If not, and this is just a search for a nice color to contrast with a white dial, then awesome. If that's the case, no need read the rest of my post. If it's fake patina... well you probably still shouldn't read my post 'cause it's really long winded. Here it is anyway, just in case:

I love the look of patina'd dials. But it's not because of the color, it's because it's patina. It's proof that the watch has lived a long life, which means it must have been well built from the start and it must have been so loved by it's owner that the owner continued to maintain it (or it has appreciated in value making it worth the cost to maintain it). All signs of a good watch.

It's like when you see a building with copper that has oxidized green. It means it's an old building. Must be a good building since it's still there and someone has decided it's worth maintaining, rather than bulldozing and replacing it with a parking garage. And those copper gutters must have been really well attached and built since they haven't fallen off after many seasons of snow and rain. But now we have all these buildings with fake aged-copper-look stuff on it. Now when I see oxidized copper I don't know weather it's really a good old building, or it's just a new building trying to look like something it's not. In essence, the widespread use of the fake aged copper has defeated the real meaning and value of the real stuff.

Furthermore, there is lots of "antiqued" (i.e. false-aged by whatever means) stuff available from recent decades. I've never heard of anything antiqued ever achieving any collector status at all. Not a fate that anyone wants to seal for a MkII watch. My sister has a nice old Bulova pocket watch. To her dismay, however, the dial was originally printed with a fake (and unnaturally uniform) patina on it. Now this vintage watch can't really take on it's own vintage character, as that character will always be drowned out by the incredibly obvious - but obviously fake - character that was put on at the factory.

Even furthermore, Bill has always created homage watches without seeming too "homage-y." That is to say, while they're homages technically speaking, they're really beautiful watches primarily. And he doesn't stick in homage-y elements that in any way misrepresent what the watch is, or don't look good. (e.g. no circle-T dials) And he has no hesitation to improve upon a vintage design, even if it means departing from the original design. It seems to me that fake patina of any sort would be a huge departure from this philosophy.

In conclusion - white lume for me. Of course C3 has better illumination, or so I hear. But I almost never find myself in a situation where it's too dark to read my watch, but I am able to read it because of the lume. In fact, I think that has never happened. Sure, sometimes I'll glance at my watch and notice that the lume is glowing. But I'd be able to read it without the lume. When it really actually is too dark to read my watch, usually the lume is also dead, because it's already been dark for a long time (no watch actually starts from a "full charge"), or because my sleeve covered the watch, or whatever. So longer, brighter C3 is also of no use to me.

Incidentally, I'm looking forward to taking one of my luminova watches on a camping trip and seeing how the lume fares under the daily cycle of natural light. My guess is that I'll never see the lume glow at all unless I blast it with a flashlight.

I warned you not to read it!

EDIT: After seeing the photos that TheDude posted, I like this lume. I don't know weather it's supposed to look like fake patina, but regardless I think it looks great.


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## Dennis Smith (Feb 15, 2006)

I agree. Not a fan of fake patina.
I call it "Yak piss yellow"


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## Nolans (Feb 10, 2009)

Dennis Smith said:


> I agree. Not a fan of fake patina.
> I call it "Yak piss yellow"


Can you imagine that on a manufacturer's website:

Dial and lume - Yak -------


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Dennis Smith said:


> I agree. Not a fan of fake patina.
> I call it "Yak piss yellow"


No one is suggesting Yak Piss Yellow, or Yeti Snot Green (C3).

This is the lume Panerai is using now on some of its pieces...


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

Or you can take the watch apart and bake the parts in the oven for a while....
A brand new CWC from Silvermans (UK), taken apart by the previous owner. He put the hands, dial and bezel in the oven a baked the parts. The result is an aged looking watch. Funny thing is, the lumen quality remains the same.










Menno


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## Semuta (Feb 5, 2009)

I like that Panerai lume, not because it looks vintage or like it's trying to be passed off as vintage, but because it has a softer look to the dial than a stark white lume. Stark white's cool too, but a change every now and then can be nice.


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, it sounded like Bill has learned from the Kingston and offering too many options on limited watches. I think he wants to nail down the details and build as few variations as he can for this one. I for one wouldnt mind any of the suggestions mentioned. The bezel IS going to be aluminum unless some crazy breakthrough happens and sapphire works out 
I think that keeping with the GMT tradition, the date has to be there. The cyclops was up for debate but its one of those features that is SOOO GMT. Maybe Subs look cleaner without but the GMT needs one AND with that amazing roulette wheel, open font date wheel, all will want it as large as possible. There was even talk of it being on a silver backing as an even greater throwback. I'm down for whatever!!! Sign me up.


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## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

Thieuster said:


> Or you can take the watch apart and bake the parts in the oven for a while....
> A brand new CWC from Silvermans (UK), taken apart by the previous owner. He put the hands, dial and bezel in the oven a baked the parts. The result is an aged looking watch. Funny thing is, the lumen quality remains the same.
> 
> 
> ...


That doesn't look a great deal different than my CWC that is relatively new and hasn't been put in an oven - I am positive since I bought it new.


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## Watch wrist: g.p. (Jul 21, 2010)

For what it is worth, roulette date wheel colouring mandates an eyeball to show it off IMHO. Also I love the 'coffee' lume on the Panerai, whatever the reasoning behind it. It suits the clean understated dial, and plays down the 'look at my bloody great huge watch' feeling that some retro offerings have.


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

Dayum. I take it back. That is beautiful. Regardless of weather or not it's supposed to look like patina... that is just a beautiful shade of brown.

Same with the cyclops. It's grown on me.



TheDude said:


> This is the lume Panerai is using now on some of its pieces...


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

with hindsight its a shame there is no such coffee lume setup for the kingston instead of the c3..


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Some EXCEPTIONALLY nice photos of the original white-dialed Pan Am GMT. Just to keep you all thinking. BTW - loving the idea of a roulette date!!

Welcome To RolexMagazine.com...Home Of Jake's Rolex World Magazine..Optimized for iPad and iPhone: Pan Am Vanilla Coke GMT-Master from Stafano Mazzariol


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

The problem with the white dials is that there are so few out there and it is very hard to find what the exact config was back then. I think many have been redone or even made into white faced GMT's. My vote to bill was for a white dial with black print like seen in the above link but Bill was originally thinking of a white dial with gold print like the Kingston. I feel that black dial version (assuming there is a choice) should have the gold printing to match the Kingston as well the original but the white should have black printing to make is legible. 
I would not blame Bill if he took the easier route and made the black dial GMT with white printing to save time and cost. I can only imagine the scrap rate on those amazing Gilt Kingston dials.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

66Cooper said:


> The problem with the white dials is that there are so few out there and it is very hard to find what the exact config was back then. I think many have been redone or even made into white faced GMT's. My vote to bill was for a white dial with black print like seen in the above link but Bill was originally thinking of a white dial with gold print like the Kingston. I feel that black dial version (assuming there is a choice) should have the gold printing to match the Kingston as well the original but the white should have black printing to make is legible.
> I would not blame Bill if he took the easier route and made the black dial GMT with white printing to save time and cost. I can only imagine the scrap rate on those amazing Gilt Kingston dials.


Many of the old pics with black dials were not gilt, so for me it isn't a must-have. I'd actually probably prefer matte black.

Not to mention matte non-gilt would be far easier and less impacting for Bill and for delivery schedules.


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

On the black dials, i am not REALLY sure. I really still think that it would look SOOO amazing to look into your watch box and have a matching pair (Kingston and GMT) with their gold, shiny dials looking back at you BUT totally understand what that does for the timing. There is also something very magical about a vintage matte dial that just screams at me. I guess I just really want a GMT and would gladly plunk down my money for whatever Bill is willing to do. After seeing Bill's watches in the flesh, I would be up for anything...they are that wonderful.


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

66Cooper said:


> On the black dials, i am not REALLY sure. I really still think that it would look SOOO amazing to look into your watch box and have a matching pair (Kingston and GMT) with their gold, shiny dials looking back at you BUT totally understand what that does for the timing. There is also something very magical about a vintage matte dial that just screams at me. I guess I just really want a GMT and would gladly plunk down my money for whatever Bill is willing to do. After seeing Bill's watches in the flesh, I would be up for anything...they are that wonderful.


I agree, what makes the Kingston stand out is the gilt dial. Good things are worth waiting for....If it was just matte it would loose that extra magic quality.


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## Dragoon (Feb 17, 2006)

Didn't Bill say he would never make another gloss dial like that again because it was such a pain in the behind? Not to mention expensive and scrap count was high?

Maybe a white dial version would be the ticket. A white dial with gilt would look nice too?

Or even a white mother of pearl dial w/o gilt.


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

He was talking about white with gilt but I personally dont think it will read well. I think Bill starting thinking that after we talked about it a bit. Mother of pearl might be nice but not for this watch. Just doesnt fit, ya know.


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

Mother of pearl. Please don't! If my wife sees a 40mm watch with a MoP dial, I'm sure she will raid my watch box and wear the watch! She's a kind of WIS herself and is always looking for a nice vintage chrono or small diver.

Menno


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## Dragoon (Feb 17, 2006)

I know womens watches do not sell particularly well, but MK II is sort of positioned with their watches where a woman who likes a larger watch could easily sport many of the MK II designs. Especially a piece like the Kingston or a dream watch like the Pan Am being kicked around.

Just ask Victoria.

It would be nice to be able to purchase a really awesome white dial piece with the quality of an MK II for the ladies in our lives.

It certainly does not have to be mother of pearl. The normal white dial Pan Am is quite striking on its own for either sex.

Personally, I have never seen a well done white mother of pearl watch that I havent thought was gorgeous. And in keeping with the Caribbean influence name like "Key West" to compliment the "Kingston" piece the white MOP would certainly fit and be something different for MK II and perhaps not totally out of line if even for a limited number of dials. Probably WAY too much work for Bill but fun to think about.

Too funny, Menno! Tell me your lovely wife hasnt made a bee line for your Kingston? If not, probably only because its new and she sees how much fun you are having sporting it.



Thieuster said:


> Mother of pearl. Please don't! If my wife sees a 40mm watch with a MoP dial, I'm sure she will raid my watch box and wear the watch! She's a kind of WIS herself and is always looking for a nice vintage chrono or small diver.
> 
> Menno


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

At the GTG, Bill was saying that the white dial might actually end up being unpolished silver.


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## MID (May 16, 2006)

A few thoughts about the Pan Am GMT: To me a "Pan Am" GMT means a white dial, because Juan Trippe ordered white dialed GMTs to keep the Pan Am executives from taking the regular black dialed GMTs from the pilots. A black dialed option would be fine, but it would be a black dialed GMT, not a "Pan Am" GMT.

If the project is to come about and the due date is 2015, as one post indicated, then there is time to find or develop a true GMT movement for this watch. I have posted (OK, ranted) about this subject before, but the 2893 is not a true GMT in my eyes. A white dialed "Pan Am" GMT would be a very special watch, and deserves a proper GMT movement. The total package, then, would be simply awesome. Undoubtedly the watch cost more than with a 2893, but some premium would be worth it.

And, for what it's worth, I love the name "Key West" for the project.


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Well, PanAM did help develop the original GMT so a black dialed one would still go with the theme. The white isnt for everyone but I bet it would grow on anyone who had second thoughts. I would love whatever Bill is willing to do. 

I too still love the Key West name. Fits great with the Kingston and I think would look nice on the dial.


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## alpapilot (Jul 15, 2009)

At first I was all over a white dialed GMT. I thought it would be one of the coolest and most original homages out there. Then, after thinking a little bit more on the history of the watch I don't think I would ever buy one. Why? There is just no way in heck I would ever associate myself with airline management! Yes, that is slightly TIC but, not really. This is also coming from a guy who was based out of the old Pan Am terminal at JFK and flew heavies to Europe which were mostly former Pan Am routes (from when my company bought them out).

However, use a acrylic or sapphire bezel and would jump on a black dial!


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

As nice as a real GMT movement would be, the originals didn't have them. In fact, the Rolex GMT didn't get a real one until about 1983 (pretty sure they invented the "real" one), and then Rolex continued to sell the previous model (16750) for years -without- a real GMT movement as it was thick and made the watch kinda fat (the fabled "Fat Lady" or "Sophia Loren" GMT - Ref 16760. The later 16700 was much thinner and returned the GMT to a one-watch line.

It was pretty much the thickness of a Sea-Dweller which was considered huge at the time.










Besides, putting a real GMT movement puts the cost through the roof. They exist, they're just way expensive relative to the projects Bill undertakes.

Also, I still think this project should be called the Pussy Galore. When I hear "Key West", I get mental images of Jimmy Buffett. I would prefer to see this one align with the Bond theme also since it was worn in a movie by the character Pussy Galore, who performed the duties of a pilot.


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

My Preference would be to go with an off white colour or even a cream dial. Not because management wore it, but because it is rarer and it is different from the ubiquitous black dialed watches that are around these days. BUT the colour of the lume and the font has to be right. Not worried about not having a GMT movement. In terms of the names, I really think we need a name that is global, one that will capture the imagination of air travel and the joys of experiencing different cultures from around the world.

Courtesey of Stefano M's blog:


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## tomr (Mar 28, 2009)

TheDude said:


> A
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I concur with your Jimmy Buffet association with the "Key West" moniker, but I would never purchase a watch named "Pussy Galore". I did not purchase the Kingston because of its James Bond lineage, but rather its design and appearance, especially the gilt dial and hands. With all the reference to "Pan Am", I have been assuming that would be the name, unless there is some patent still in effect. To me, Pan Am connotes a stronger GMT association than "Pussy Galore". No offense intended, but except for the diehard James Bond fan, I think that a "Pussy Galore" name on a watch would be a detraction.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

tomr said:


> I concur with your Jimmy Buffet association with the "Key West" moniker, but I would never purchase a watch named "Pussy Galore". I did not purchase the Kingston because of its James Bond lineage, but rather its design and appearance, especially the gilt dial and hands. With all the reference to "Pan Am", I have been assuming that would be the name, unless there is some patent still in effect. To me, Pan Am connotes a stronger GMT association than "Pussy Galore". No offense intended, but except for the diehard James Bond fan, I think that a "Pussy Galore" name on a watch would be a detraction.


I agree - it should not be emblazoned across the dial. However, I don't want Pan-Am on there either (not that trademarks would allow it). I wasn't assuming that either name would be on there... 

I guess we should discuss this - I'd be satisfied with MkII dial markings and perhaps generic GMT labeling. I'm pretty sure no one has trademarks on using GMT on a watch dial.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

BTW - Steinhart just released a nice patina-lumed version of its B-Uhr. I wish they had this lume when I got mine (mine is C3)...

Fliegeruhren · Nav.B-Uhr vintage TITAN - Steinhart Watches

Steinhart Nav.B-Uhr Vintage Titanium | True time tools


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## alpapilot (Jul 15, 2009)

For a name y'all might want to consider Pan Am's callsign, "Clipper". 

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk


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## MID (May 16, 2006)

TheDude said:


> As nice as a real GMT movement would be, the originals didn't have them.


Your point about the original not having a "real" GMT movement is well taken. But I have a real dislike of the 2893, which is made more for GMT "looks" than GMT "function." And, in this day and age, if a proper GMT movement is available, it should be used.

I don't think "Pussy Galore" is a great name for a watch. In fact, I think it's a turn-off. But "Clipper" is a keeper.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

TheDude said:


> BTW - Steinhart just released a nice patina-lumed version of its B-Uhr. I wish they had this lume when I got mine (mine is C3)...
> 
> Fliegeruhren · Nav.B-Uhr vintage TITAN - Steinhart Watches
> 
> Steinhart Nav.B-Uhr Vintage Titanium | True time tools


Can you post a pic of your c3 for comparison?


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

While the idea of a true GMT is very appealing, in reality, it would be too expensive. As far as I know, all of the true GMT movements are either in house or modified in house movements. ETA doesn't build a true GMT. I have had one true GMT watch, a Ulysse Nardin +/- Big Date GMT. It was a great watch, second time zone settable with pushers. Time could be set forward or back without stopping the watch. It's one that I really regret selling. I have also had two 2893-2 based watches with the settable GMT hand (Which would be the movement used in the "Pan Am) Nothing wrong with them, the only factor is the GMT hand is settable in only one direction, forward, as the same crown position sets the date when the crown is rotated in the opposite direction. Older Rolex watches,1675,16750,etc. had a tracking GMT hand, non settable. The second time zone was read off the bezel insert. I really don't have a problem with the 2893-2 movements. They have some limitations, but unless you are going to be constantly crossing time zones, and need to reset your watch every time you cross into another time zone, they are perfectly adequate.

I really don't like the idea of naming the GMT "Pussy Galore". While it may be fine in some circumstances, I can see where there would be many social and business situations where it would be inappropriate. I cannot see myself visiting a surgery patient pre-op to discuss their anesthesia, wearing a watch with that labeling. Where I live, small very conservative small Souther town, it would not be well received. As much as like the watch, I wouldn't buy one if it was labeled "Pussy Galore". I think "Key West", PanAm, China Clipper, or just Clipper would be much better, as would just a simple reference to GMT.


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## sierra11b (Jan 7, 2011)

Arthur said:


> I really don't like the idea of naming the GMT "Pussy Galore". While it may be fine in some circumstances, I can see where there would be many social and business situations where it would be inappropriate. I cannot see myself visiting a surgery patient pre-op to discuss their anesthesia, wearing a watch with that labeling. Where I live, small very conservative small Souther town, it would not be well received. As much as like the watch, I wouldn't buy one if it was labeled "Pussy Galore". I think "Key West", PanAm, China Clipper, or just Clipper would be much better, as would just a simple reference to GMT.


It would only be a reference to us WIS and not be on the watch. I see your point, though...


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## MID (May 16, 2006)

Arthur said:


> While the idea of a true GMT is very appealing, in reality, it would be too expensive. As far as I know, all of the true GMT movements are either in house or modified in house movements. ETA doesn't build a true GMT.


The previous generation of Omega Seamaster GMTs used a modified ETA 2892-2 (not a 2893) with a true GMT function. Essentially, it involved a modification of the day wheel (both a day wheel and a GMT hand make one revolution in 24 hours.) Obviously, the 12 hour hand was also modified.


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

sierra11b said:


> It would only be a reference to us WIS and not be on the watch. I see your point, though...


That would be perfectly all right, however I believe that some of the folks were advocating that as a dial imprint. I may be misreading their thought completely, and I apologize if that's the case.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

rmasso said:


> Can you post a pic of your c3 for comparison?


I have these that I originally snapped to show the difference next to the MkII white lume. Bear in mind that my watch has a brown dial so it isn't going to be an apples to apples comparison with the above pics.



















FWIW, that Steinhart has the same movement as my Vantage, was under $400 USD, and was shipped to my door in less than 4 days from Germany. Oh, and it's more accurate than either of my MkIIs... :-s:-s:-s


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Okay. As most of you know by now, I have been a vocal proponent of this project from day one (May 2nd, 2010). I have always liked the size and lines of the original 6542, so White dial or Black, I'm in (heck, if we have a choice I'll probably buy both of them). But about the name...............well, I hadn't given it much thought: just wanted to see it get built. But, as we get close - and folks were talking about what's on the dial - I started to think.

I like Pussy Galore, but not on my watch. Too much 'splaining to my daughter, PLUS its a useless moniker on the white-dialed version (which never saw any Bond screen time). Clipper is good for both versions, but does sound a little goofey in real-life ("Hey, guys, take a look at my clipper"....). PanAm logos are a nice touch, but good luck getting the rights for no money, plus there are plenty of people out there who have no particular affinity for the Pan Pam name.

And then......it hit me.

As I'm sure most of you know by now, the original GMT (so the story goes) was pushed onto Rolex by PanAm to help the pilots cope with the new jets Pan Am was taking delivery of. These jets had a much longer range and fly time than anything in the fleet, and so pilots would be pushed (as always) to fly further and longer to capture the travelers on these new expanded international routes which didn't require as much refueling stops. The watch would be a tool (and we know how much we all like "tool" watches) to aid pilots in keeping track of arrival times while still keeping an eye on the time back home.

The year of the first prototype flight for the jet was 1954, the same year Pan Am made its order for the first batch. In the same year (1954) the prototype for the GMT was drawn up, and registered in 1955. By Oct. 26, 1958, Pan Am made its first commercial flight with the new bird, on a run from New York to Paris, and the 60's boom in commercial air traffic began in earnest.

The aircraft was a Boeing 707. It changed everything we knew about the "business" of travel, and there's not a person reading this who's life has not been affected by one form or another by that inaugural flight. 

So, as a tribute to Pan Am AND the people behind the plane that caused the need for a new watch in the first place, may I suggest calling it simply the MkII "707".


There. More than $0.02 but less than a buck.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

TheDude said:


> I have these that I originally snapped to show the difference next to the MkII white lume. Bear in mind that my watch has a brown dial so it isn't going to be an apples to apples comparison with the above pics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I like the C3 Lume, looks nice. Your last comment is kinda disheartening though. Not for the Steinhart of course....


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

cpotters said:


> I like Pussy Galore, but not on my watch. Too much 'splaining to my daughter, PLUS its a useless moniker on the white-dialed version (which never saw any Bond screen time). Clipper is good for both versions, but does sound a little goofey in real-life ("Hey, guys, take a look at my clipper"....). PanAm logos are a nice touch, but good luck getting the rights for no money, plus there are plenty of people out there who have no particular affinity for the Pan Pam name.


Agreed!



cpotters said:


> The aircraft was a Boeing 707. It changed everything we knew about the "business" of travel, and there's not a person reading this who's life has not been affected by one form or another by that inaugural flight.
> 
> So, as a tribute to Pan Am AND the people behind the plane that caused the need for a new watch in the first place, may I suggest calling it simply the MkII "707".
> 
> There. More than $0.02 but less than a buck.


Nice idea. How about Bill makes it a limited edition of 1954. Or call teh piece the MKII 1954 and make a limited edition of 707. ;-)

Either way sounds nice to me. The 1954 gives tribute to the year of the prototype that started it all....

Rich


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## Watch wrist: g.p. (Jul 21, 2010)

Wow I knew (not first hand) there was a noticeable difference but that is the first I have seen of the three cases together. Thanks Dude.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

rmasso said:


> I like the C3 Lume, looks nice. Your last comment is kinda disheartening though. Not for the Steinhart of course....


Thanks. That watch glows like the sun with that lume. I don't know if I lucked out with that watch or what.


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## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

rmasso said:


> ...How about Bill makes it a limited edition of 1954. Or call teh piece the MKII 1954 and make a limited edition of 707. ;-)


Why does this watch need to be a limited edition? :-s

If Bill wants to grow his business he needs to drop the limited editions and make watches that can be purchased and delivered in a reasonable amount of time. If a watch is not available and in stock it shouldn't be on the website.

After my 2+ year wait (with no end in sight) for the Kingston I will never buy another MkII watch unless I can order it from the websight and have it delivered within a week or two. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way.


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Saxon007 said:


> Why does this watch need to be a limited edition? :-s
> 
> If Bill wants to grow his business he needs to drop the limited editions and make watches that can be purchased and delivered in a reasonable amount of time. If a watch is not available and in stock it shouldn't be on the website.
> 
> After my 2+ year wait (with no end in sight) for the Kingston I will never buy another MkII watch unless I can order it from the websight and have it delivered within a week or two. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way.


I agree: there's no need for the watch to be a "limited edition" because, from a practical point of view, ALL
MkII watches are limited editions. If you think about it, Bill would struggle to make 1000 copies of any model, no less 10,000 copies. Many of the watches that are not called limited are still measured in the hundreds of units shipped (or less, much less, such as the TR-1000 or a DLC LRRP, of which less than 10 have made it into the wild).

I think the pent-up demand and expectations of a "Limited Edition" only serve to frustrate generally enthusiastic buyers - like yourself - who simply want to know if something is in stock or not and - if not - when do you expect more.

I went a step further at the NY GTG, and suggested to Bill that he should simply ignore us and all of our design suggestions and just build the watch he envisions. I'm sure whatever it is, built to his standards and on his schedule, there will be ample demand for the final product. Lets face it: we (as a group, with all of our "$0.02) were single-handedly responsible for adding about a year onto the Kingston project.

I think that if Bill announced one day that he had, in fact, been secretly working on the Pan Am GMT for 6 months, and that there were 100 units made AND available, he'd sell 30 in the first day, another 20 in the next few days, then have them all sold out within a few weeks. Anyone who missed out would simply wait until the next production cycle (6-12 months after) and get to the head of that list. The point is, it takes the production expectations and puts them back where they belong: under MkII's control, not ours. And this - more or less - is how it works for all the other models in the MkII lineup.

There has never been more customer frustration - nor greater customer satisfaction - with MkII than that surrounding the design and delivery of the Kingston. It was the only watch I've ever seen where people had so much input and emotion invested in the final product. I said over two years ago that this was a noble experiment NOT likely to be repeated by MkII or any other boutique watch brand in the immediate future, and I still stick by that prediction.

The waters have been tested, and the trial balloon raised on this model. I say don't ask for too much input (just enough), build it in batches. Sell as many as you can, build some more, and keep your faithful customers happy and wanting more. I would be AMAZED if, using this process, 1954 of these ever got built anyway. Just build them: we will come.

(still a fan of "707", if you're still taking suggestions, Bill ! )


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

If you think about what I said, a limited edition of 1954, that is probably more than Bill has ever made of any one particular watch, I would venture to guess. So in reality, it is not limited. But like Charlie said, all of Bill's (MKII's) watches are limited in a sense as he doesn't produce them by the thousands.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

rmasso said:


> If you think about what I said, a limited edition of 1954, that is probably more than Bill has ever made of any one particular watch, I would venture to guess. So in reality, it is not limited. But like Charlie said, all of Bill's (MKII's) watches are limited in a sense as he doesn't produce them by the thousands.


 Hey! My 500th post! 
sorry, had to post that just cause I noticed.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

If we continue down this path, then it only makes sense to have the small-crown sub represented as well.

Make the GMT and Sub variants one model with different bezel inserts, dials, hands, etc... Like the LRRP.


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## Arthur (Feb 11, 2006)

cpotters said:


> I agree: there's no need for the watch to be a "limited edition" because, from a practical point of view, ALL
> MkII watches are limited editions. If you think about it, Bill would struggle to make 1000 copies of any model, no less 10,000 copies. Many of the watches that are not called limited are still measured in the hundreds of units shipped (or less, much less, such as the TR-1000 or a DLC LRRP, of which less than 10 have made it into the wild).
> 
> I think the pent-up demand and expectations of a "Limited Edition" only serve to frustrate generally enthusiastic buyers - like yourself - who simply want to know if something is in stock or not and - if not - when do you expect more.
> ...


Very,very well said, and I agree with you 100%. I would bet that just about every boutique watch maker has tried the "buyer designed" watches and for the most part I doubt that anyof them would do it the second time. This is a good example of the old adage "too many cooks spoil a good soup". All the buyer input has done is create a much higher level of frustration and delays. I believe that it would be a whole lot better to build the watches and when you have 100 ready to ship, post them on the website and ship them out. 

I am not a fan of "limited editions". I don't think of something being limited unless it's produced in a very small edition and is very desirable. I used to collect limited edition fountain pens until I realized that an edition of 500 really wasn't "Limited", especially when I found that in quite a few cases, the manufacturer still had 200 left after a couple of years! By then they were selling at a discount to try to clear out the stock. So much for appreciation over time.

I agree with Saxon007, I will probably never get involved in another pre order situation, unless the watches are in production, and will be delivered within a reasonable period of time. I haven't felt the frustration that is evident by many other forum members, probably because I got into the Kingston process at a very late date (3rdStage), so I have only been involved since the middle of last summer. I never even think about the Kingston except when I visit the MKII forum. I can appreciate the feelings of those of you who are plank owners have been involved for over 2 years. In fact I believe that the long wait and frustration may be one reason we have seen such a large number of watches sold. Owners have moved on to other watches, their tastes have changed, or they are so unhappy with the process, they want to just get rid of the watch. Maybe this is far-fetched, but strange things happen when people are frustrated and angry, whether the frustration and anger are justified or not.
 
I would dearly love to have a white dial homage to the Rolex 6542 "PanAm, HoweverI wouldn't sign up for a pre order, for the same reason I no longer buy Bordeaux futures. When I read "drinkable in 12-15 years", I figure, I will either be dead or too draft to enjoy a good bottle of wine!


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## DCcollector (Apr 28, 2011)

I've been a lurker for a long time and have watched this thread since it started last month. I wanted to chime in with... I love 'Clipper'. But given the LA Clippers, their indomitable spirit of failure and their color scheme... Let's not be big losers. 

As for dial color, I understand some people's affection for the 'black dial.' But I think if this is a retro full on homage, the dial is white. I think black has this place right now, but white is to me the color for this piece. The black of the period were cutting edge, but the Pan-AM in my mind is the white. And if its not white, perhaps it'll be thrown in as a version or option. 

I'd love love love to see this project moved forward. I regret to getting, and still want, a Stingray. But this is one I wouldn't let pass by.


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## JDS (Ohio) (Mar 1, 2007)

I agree all the way. In fact, I've always been just a little morally offended by the concept of an intentionally limited edition. On one level it seems elitist, and on another it makes me feel like I'm being "played" by marketing, if you know what I mean. So just make the model, give us some good options, and just build to suit demand, less stress for us and more money in Bill's pocket in the long run.

But don't try for extra exclusivity, low numbers are pretty much inherent in any Mark II watch line to begin with. So what if 350-400 people bought a Kingston, or even a 1,000, instead of the current 300, the chances of seeing another one like mine on anyone outside of, maybe, a WIS GTG, is pretty much nil. I suspect that the biggest benfiiciaries of limited editions are the people who snap up the reservations and then resell the watch immediately after delivery to other people who didn't make the list in time. Personally, I'd rather pay my money direct to Bill than to a "scalper".

Additionally, announcing roll out and preorder only when the REAL delivery date is pretty much assured would also be the way to go in my book. By all means get input from the potential customer base, that's just common sense and good business, just don't announce a launch date until the process is a little further along. Maybe offer a discount and ability to reserve a serial number for a slightly advanced preorder, but waiting extended periods to take delivery, while our money is already paid, gets a lot of people bent out of shape. For me personally, the Kingston was worth the wait, but I would have been a lot less stressed if the lag between prepay and delivery had been less than 12 months, instead of 2 years. I realize there were unforseen hold ups, I'd just advise that the announcement and taking prepays should be further downstream, when things are more nailed down. Just my $0.02.b-)

PS: someone below pushed for white dial ONLY. I really don't see any good reason why, given Bill's history of giving us options to choose from, that we can't have both traditional black and the "executive" white as well. At this point, I am not really sure which I would order if this ever materializes, but I would much prefer to make my own choice.


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

TheDude said:


> If we continue down this path, then it only makes sense to have the small-crown sub represented as well.
> 
> Make the GMT and Sub variants one model with different bezel inserts, dials, hands, etc... Like the LRRP.


Yes.

On names. I like 707. I don't really like "Key West."


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

I thought we all just got done squawking about how much of a burden these limited edition pieces are. 

If we really care, we should be getting behind the idea of making this GMT homage part of a "small crown" regular edition watch that encompasses Sub and GMT models. 

Let's start thinking of names that would be suitable for both.

Perhaps "NCG-54"

Stands for No Crown Guard '54 - (1954 was the year of the first Submariner -and- the first 6542 GMT)


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Or how about:

DualTimeZone - DTZ


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Izzy said:


> Or how about:
> 
> DualTimeZone - DTZ


Well, except that there are 3...


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

If it does not have a real GMT movement, then one would only be able to read two time zones...


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Izzy said:


> If it does not have a real GMT movement, then one would only be able to read two time zones...


No.

The first zone is the actual handset as it moves around the dial. The second is the 24hr hand. The third can be tracked by moving the bezel. You have the "actual" orientation of the 24 hand as well as the offset created by turning the bezel. The function of a third zone is derived from the moveable bezel. Take the Rolex Explorer II. It has a "real" GMT movement (3185/3186) yet it can only track 2 timezones. Why? because the bezel is fixed and cannot turn.

A "real" GMT movement is simply one that can set the hour hand independent of the other hands without hacking.


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## JamesJackson (Jun 6, 2009)

As far as names go... I think "Intercontinental" may be a good idea. This referring to to the "Intercontinental" version of Boeing 707. Pan Am launched the 707 in 1958. The 707-300 or "intercontinental" with its 5,750 nmi range was the first jet airliner capable of truly connecting the continents of the world. Thus introducing its passengers and crew to what we know today as "Jet-lag". And this of course being why Pan-Am helped develop the GMT master 6542 four years earlier. As a Future airline pilot myself this watch would be a must have for my MKII collection.

Here are some great 6542 Pics as well as some Pan Am/Rolex Advertising.

http://rolexblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Pan American Airways


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## 66Cooper (Jun 20, 2008)

Dude, your right about the LE watches being a huge pain for Bill. Have to keep reminding myself that. 

Ok, moving forward then does this watch even get a name? Do any other MKII watched (aside from LE ones) have names on the dial? There could be a nickname for it but should one appear on the dial at all?


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## eganwh (Jan 15, 2009)

66Cooper said:


> Do any other MKII watched (aside from LE ones) have names on the dial? There could be a nickname for it but should one appear on the dial at all?


Great suggestion. This way any name chosen will not prevent one from buying as it will not appear on the dial.


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## DCcollector (Apr 28, 2011)

I saw this earlier today and midway through shows a great example of the Pan-AM GMT. It also shows you what you might expect if you want to get one of the originals.

At Auction: Pan Am Pilots


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

DCcollector said:


> I saw this earlier today and midway through shows a great example of the Pan-AM GMT. It also shows you what you might expect if you want to get one of the originals.
> 
> At Auction: Pan Am Pilots


I suspect those estimates are low........although I haven't seen whether or not they have the Pan-Am screwback. I could be wrong, but I've been pretty lucky on calling the final hammer prices on these oddball Rollies. Stay tuned.


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## DCcollector (Apr 28, 2011)

cpotters said:


> I suspect those estimates are low........although I haven't seen whether or not they have the Pan-Am screwback. I could be wrong, but I've been pretty lucky on calling the final hammer prices on these oddball Rollies. Stay tuned.


Honestly, I think there is no telling with such pieces in general. So few and the economy, some body could easily do a double on that once they go through the auction guide.


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