# I guess I'd better get used to hearing "it's just a seiko"



## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

This thread got such a good response on another forum that I thought I'd try it hear to see some of the responses and what experience WUS members had similiar to mine 



Two examples of people's reaction to my GS SD GMT...

This morning I ran in to a local huckster who sells imitation watches for $50 in front of my building. He had a Super Avenger and a Gucci two tone. For the hundredth time over the years I told him politely "No thanks". He asked what I was wearing and I showed him my Seiko. "seiko? Are you kidding? This super avenger is wayyyy nicer and you can have it for $40!"

This afternoon a co-worker noticed it on my wrist and excitedly asked "Got another of those rolexes?" I took it off and showed him and explained a little about spring drive movements. He listened and thought about it and replied "Sounds nice and all but it'll never be as good as a Rolex... It's just a Seiko. What's it cost like $300?"

I guess I'll have to get used to smiling politely and agreeing with people who'll never understand what it means to wear and appreciate a Grand Seiko... To be honest I like the face that it flies under the radar so well... Makes me enjoy wearing it even more


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

My God, it's one of the most beautiful Seiko !!! Tell them to go f**k themselves... Ah, sometimes I think ignorance is nowadays a virtue...


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## stuart77 (Oct 16, 2011)

That is a stunning watch, congratulations! It's also an idiot filter and shows up the people that only know the names of the usual publicised luxury brand names, and nothing more than that about watches... i pity them.


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## nurt (Oct 1, 2011)

I got a Grand Seiko quartz model. The comments I hear are pretty bad to say the least, but I try not to let it get to me.


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## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

That GS SBGE001 is drool worthy. All of those "its just a Seiko" comments will be long forgotten when that one person who knows watches comments on it and can't stop staring at it. 

I remember a story on these boards where the member was on an airplane wearing his GS and the person behind actually saw it and leaned forward over the chair to get a better look and talk about it.


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## 00Photo (Jan 4, 2008)

No one is going to take you seriously when you walk around showing off your seiko while barefoot. :-d


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## Johnny Wishbone (Jun 30, 2011)

It's like stuart77 said, those dumb ass reactions you got indeed show the ignorance of the general public.
Most people have no knowledge of watches aside from some brand names they hear or read about.
It's kind of like with children, they don't know much yet, so we really can't blame them for saying stupid things.
Personally I'd choose a SpringDrive Seiko over any Rolex any day (and I'm not kidding!).


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## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

I like what RTea said, it will be a great day when a knowledgable watch lover stops you to say how much they love that GS. The fact is, most people are ignorant to the fact that there's other quality watches that don't say Rolex on the face (or Rolox, like I suspect they do from the man in front of your building) That GMT is one of my favs, and anyone here would LOVE to have it and appreciate the engineering that went into it. There's no point in arguing with these people, better to just smile and don't let it bother you, after all you bought it for yourself to enjoy and that's what really matters.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

This is one of the reason I will NEVER buy a rolex. 
I don't want to be associated with people who know nothing about watches and think that Rolex is the best. 

Don't get me wrong, I think Rolex watches are awesome! The company makes watches with great history/build quality/classic looks... but when you see someone on the street wearing rolex, there is a 50/50 chance that he is clueless about watches...unfortunately, this is often the same case with people who wear cheap Seiko watches -_-


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

i love the grand seikos and the GMT is definitely on my must have list. all that matters is you know whats on your wrist and appreciate it. remember theres always a lurking WIS and we know:-!


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

canteaus said:


> This is one of the reason I will NEVER buy a rolex.
> I don't want to be associated with people who know nothing about watches and think that Rolex is the best.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Rolex watches are awesome! The company makes watches with great history/build quality/classic looks... but when you see someone on the street wearing rolex, there is a 50/50 chance that he is clueless about watches...unfortunately, this is often the same case with people who wear cheap Seiko watches -_-


don't let that stop you from buying a rolex. they are one of the best watches made. there will always be people who buy their watch for the name and the others who know the truth about what they are wearing. it is what is is!


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## omegazzz (Jan 16, 2009)

as far as I'm concerned, these high end grand seiko's make a bigger statement than any rolex.

it says you have good taste and don't rely on brand names for your identity.

all good to me


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

omegazzz said:


> as far as I'm concerned, these high end grand seiko's make a bigger statement than any rolex.
> 
> it says you have good taste and don't rely on brand names for your identity.
> 
> all good to me


unfortunately some people feel the way you do and its just not true in a lot of cases. some people actually buy rolex because of the history and the quality.


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## RedneckVostokGuy (Nov 23, 2011)

It's mundanes like the twerp the OP spoke of that give me the red-*ss; there are more quality timepieces out there than just Rolex! Seiko has CONSISTANTLY created some of the popular and durable watches for years, and I'd put their quality up against Rolex any day of the week. Yes, you get a good watch with Rolex, by at the end of the day, you're pretty much paying for the name as opposed to what's actually inside the watch.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

swiss ghost said:


> don't let that stop you from buying a rolex. they are one of the best watches made. there will always be people who buy their watch for the name and the others who know the truth about what they are wearing. it is what is is!


Like I said, I think Rolex makes some of the best watches around. But personally, I would never spend $5000+ on a watch brand where the majority of owners don't really care about watches. The exception would be vintage Rolex watches, that's what a lot of hardcore WIS people are interested in...however, vintage Rolex's are $$$$$$$$$ that I don't have


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## Bongo Boy (Apr 21, 2011)

It's sort of funny because I too at one time had a good bit of prejudicial opinion about various watches, and Rolex, specifically, was one I _assumed_ was a junk watch of inferior quality. I'd made that erroneous assumption based on what most of them _looked like_, and on nothing else. That, and once about 10 years ago when I was asking a guy who was somewhat of a watch nut about Rolexes, he told me "Well, among folks I know who really know watches, Rolex doesn't have all that great a reputation. You might want to look at Omega."

I think we all are guilty, to some degree, of just making stuff up--probably why brand loyalty is so similar to religion.


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## Trandy (Jun 12, 2011)

Don't let it bother you.

Are you wearing the watch to please yourself? Or someone else? 

Hopefully it's the former and that's all that matters.

The heck with what other people say or think.....you just enjoy that beautiful watch.


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## Spring-Diver (Jan 26, 2009)

Congrats on one of my all time favorites.....absolutely love that SBGE001.

Don't let it bother you....I here "oh it's just a Seiko" all the time. I just smile and "laugh in my head":-d


Cheers
Shannon


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

canteaus said:


> Like I said, I think Rolex makes some of the best watches around. But personally, I would never spend $5000+ on a watch brand where the majority of owners don't really care about watches. The exception would be vintage Rolex watches, that's what a lot of hardcore WIS people are interested in...however, vintage Rolex's are $$$$$$$$$ that I don't have


the same thing could be said about someone spending $6000 on a seiko. bottom-line, some people with money buy expensive watches because they can and they don't have to know anything about the watch other than the name. others spend big $$ on watches for the quality. I am not a rolex fanboy but the fact remains that it sets a bar that some other watchmakers wish to obtain. Grand Seiko is referred to as the japanese rolex for a reason. its a compliment. i would rather have a grand seiko and rolex than 2 of either. no point in bashing rolex to make seiko owners feel better. rolex and grand seiko are both superior watches to many other brands.


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## JERSTERCA (Apr 4, 2008)

I think most of us WIS buy a watch because we like it not to impress others. The GS Snowfake is one of the best looking watches I have seen period.


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## Time Exposure (Aug 13, 2010)

That's right! Step out of the norm! Forget the Rolex owners! Rock that Grand Seiko! Hang it out the window of your Hyundai Equus on the way to your mansion in the projects!


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

That's the kind of response I was hoping for guys... Thanks! Please don't get me wrong though I'm not concerned in he slightest about someone disrespecting my watch whether they know nothing about watches or have been collecting for 50 years I'm quite simply head over heels for this GS of mine and after owning a Spring Drive I'm finding my Swiss and German watches are spending a lot of time in the case... I've owned every watch brand short of a Patek and I've NEVER bought to impress anyone but myself nor will I ever... I don't need validation from a guy selling Molexes on the street I just thought it'd be fun to hear some of your experiences 

By the way does anyone have a sig pic for this model yet?


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

swiss ghost said:


> the same thing could be said about someone spending $6000 on a seiko.


I'm sorry, but I really have to disagree with you on this one.

I would have to say that there are far more people paying $6000 on a Rolex who know nothing about watches than people who spends the same amount on a Grand Seiko.

Nothing against Rolex though, I really like Rolex watches...and I can't afford one


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

00Photo said:


> No one is going to take you seriously when you walk around showing off your seiko while barefoot. :-d


I think you are completely right... But you know what they say about guys with big feet right? They have great taste in watches 



canteaus said:


> Like I said, I think Rolex makes some of the best watches around. But personally, I would never spend $5000+ on a watch brand where the majority of owners don't really care about watches. The exception would be vintage Rolex watches, that's what a lot of hardcore WIS people are interested in...however, vintage Rolex's are $$$$$$$$$ that I don't have


Vintage Rolex are some of the nicest watches ever made but priced far out of normal peoples budget. It's funny how I never mentioned Rolex in my original post but it seems like its the standard that WIS compare all over brands too...



Time Exposure said:


> That's right! Step out of the norm! Forget the Rolex owners! Rock that Grand Seiko! Hang it out the window of your Hyundai Equus on the way to your mansion in the projects!


Hmmmm I'm curious what watch, car and area of the world you think would make someone accomplished? A gold Daytona wearing CEO driving a convertible corvette to his estate in the hamptons... No thanks I'll stick with my Seiko


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## Malyel (Mar 30, 2006)

The good news is that if you are ever mugged while wearing it you can turn to the mugger and explain that he doesn't have to go through with it. Why risk getting locked up for "just a Seiko". ;-)


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## jDrexler (Dec 15, 2011)

Malyel said:


> The good news is that if you are ever mugged while wearing it you can turn to the mugger and explain that he doesn't have to go through with it. Why risk getting locked up for "just a Seiko". ;-)


haha, I was just thinking the same thing the other day in regards to my SARB. give up the wallet but play the "man, it's just a cheap seiko that was passed down to me by my father, it's not even swiss"


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

Ahem... this discussion starts to be a bit boring. Again a "fight" between "Swiss" and "Japanese"... It is a nonsense !!

First of all: buy what you like and buy what your finance allows you. Do you like Rolex ? Go for Rolex. Do you like Seiko ? Buy Seiko ! 

Second: I am tired to hear things like "Rolex are most recognizable and Seiko are not status symbols" or "Seiko is far better than Rolex and I am fine when only fine connaisseurs recognize it". WHO CARES ??? Do you buy a watch for yourself or do you buy a watch to be regarded as a VIP ?

If you are looking for a brand awarded watch that gives you comfidence while conversing with other people, maybe a Rolex would be better. If you buy a watch because you like other details, Seiko would be fine.

Personally I have a Seiko, a Citizen, a Rolex and a couple of others. Seldom I wear a Rolex: I am annoyed by the lack of functions and by the fact it's an automatic I have to resync each time I wear it. Moreover I think it's just an ordinary watch with nothing special. The Seiko is my favourite but it's more than 25 years ago and I prefer to have a great care of it. Actually I like the Citizen much more so I go for it. And it cost 1/20 than the Rolex...

And, to end my post, I don't care at all at other comments: I wear a watch only for my personal pleasure because each time I want to know what time is it, then I take a look at my watch and I think by myself "ahhh, what a wonderful watch". This is what I want from my watch !


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## debito (Nov 13, 2011)

You must have known this would happen, right? When you buy a GS, you are accepting that nearly everyone will vastly underrate your watch. That's part of the mystique of the GS. It's one of the finest timepieces in the world, but few people know that. I think you need to totally reorient your thinking about this. Instead of getting upset when people dismiss your watch, you ought to get a thrill from it. If only they knew...

I would say, "Yep, it's a Grand Seiko" and smile to yourself.


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

I have experienced the other end of the snob scale. I just recently had a co-worker who wears $9.95 Walmart throw aways look at my diver 
and .....Oooooh, that's a Seiko. Nice.

Walter


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

dicioccio said:


> Ahem... this discussion starts to be a bit boring. Again a "fight" between "Swiss" and "Japanese"... It is a nonsense !!
> 
> First of all: buy what you like and buy what your finance allows you. Do you like Rolex ? Go for Rolex. Do you like Seiko ? Buy Seiko !
> 
> ...


well put|>


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## Ottovonn (Dec 9, 2011)

I also think it's funny how the discussion digressed slightly into the generic "Rolex is for ignorant snobs, Seiko's the brand for people who truly understand quality" discussion.

I find it fascinating because a lot of people who bash Rolex owners in this way -- by setting themselves as part of the exclusive Seiko club -- are acting just as snobbishly ignorant as the so-called "majority of Rolex owners who know nothing about watches." 

Yes, your Seiko will probably never receive the recognition it deserves. Yes, no one around you, not even your mother, will know what the hell a Spring Drive is. Your Seiko is forever tainted by Seiko's legacy of pumping out cheap, quartz watches. But that overall perception of Seiko doesn't make it right to form half-assed generalizations about Rolex owners.

Putting Rolex watches and their owners down because it's the watch people only buy due to its associations with success and luxury is just as ignorant as the joke of a hustler selling Rolodex watches -- sorry, I couldn't resist making another made up bootleg brand. 

I also think that Seiko's watches deserve better recognition than "it's just a Seiko." However, none of that bothers me anymore. I take pleasure in knowing that I have a quality watch on my wrist that no one would bother chopping my arm off for. 

I've also learned to not look down on Rolex owners. By visiting WUS and its various subforums, I've learned that there are a lot of passionate Rolex owners who truly appreciate quality watches beyond their preferred brand. 

I've been thoroughly schooled in the quality and heritage of some Rolex watches just by reading the Rolex forums. Nonetheless, the condescending attitude towards Swiss watches in general is what bothers me: blind brand loyalty limits our ability to appreciate works of horological art.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Thats exactly what I'm saying in my post! What's to be bothered by? If someone has no clue about grand seiko I relish the opportunity to educate them about the brand... A local WIS buddy of mine tried on my Ananta GMT last year and has been wanting one ever since so when I picked up an Ananta moonphase recently and found it didn't suit me he bought it ASAP and loves it. That's what I enjoy... giving a buddy (or stranger) the chance to discover this brand and appreciate it as much as I do... That's one of the things that makes it fun to collect for me.

I dont need an $8000 watch to enjoy looking ar the time on my wrist. Heres what I find myself wearing besides the Seiko... Citizen All-Black and it makes me smile too  wear what you like guys anything else is stupid IMHO



debito said:


> You must have known this would happen, right? When you buy a GS, you are accepting that nearly everyone will vastly underrate your watch. That's part of the mystique of the GS. It's one of the finest timepieces in the world, but few people know that. I think you need to totally reorient your thinking about this. Instead of getting upset when people dismiss your watch, you ought to get a thrill from it. If only they knew...
> 
> I would say, "Yep, it's a Grand Seiko" and smile to yourself.


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## Johnny Wishbone (Jun 30, 2011)

Ottovonn said:


> I also think it's funny how the discussion digressed slightly into the generic "Rolex is for ignorant snobs, Seiko's the brand for people who truly understand quality" discussion.
> 
> I find it fascinating because a lot of people who bash Rolex owners in this way -- by setting themselves as part of the exclusive Seiko club -- are acting just as snobbishly ignorant as the so-called "majority of Rolex owners who know nothing about watches."
> 
> ...


Well put


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## Aerofish (Aug 10, 2011)

Personally, I would rather put up with "Its just a Seiko" than "Is it real?" Both great watches/marques have their own set of irksome comments. The bottom line is its on _your _wrist


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## Pro Diver (Nov 15, 2007)

Great way to raise the blood pressure of the assembled masses here on WUS. 

Let us not forget that we are probably a very small minority when it comes to watches. Most people are ignorant and are only impressed by the big names (mostly the regal Swiss brands) primarily because of their marketing campaigns. But part of the blame goes to Seiko since the company sells its best only in Japan. Yes, I know there are a few Grand Seiko dealers here in the US but if the public got a taste of MM 300's, Sumo's, and even Ananta's at Macy's and jewelry/watch retailers, far more people WOULD be impressed when we flash our Seiko's.


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## pogiguy (Dec 31, 2010)

+1. Bravo.








Originally Posted by *dicioccio*  
Ahem... this discussion starts to be a bit boring. Again a "fight" between "Swiss" and "Japanese"... It is a nonsense !!

First of all: buy what you like and buy what your finance allows you. Do you like Rolex ? Go for Rolex. Do you like Seiko ? Buy Seiko !

Second: I am tired to hear things like "Rolex are most recognizable and Seiko are not status symbols" or "Seiko is far better than Rolex and I am fine when only fine connaisseurs recognize it". WHO CARES ??? Do you buy a watch for yourself or do you buy a watch to be regarded as a VIP ?

If you are looking for a brand awarded watch that gives you comfidence while conversing with other people, maybe a Rolex would be better. If you buy a watch because you like other details, Seiko would be fine.

Personally I have a Seiko, a Citizen, a Rolex and a couple of others. Seldom I wear a Rolex: I am annoyed by the lack of functions and by the fact it's an automatic I have to resync each time I wear it. Moreover I think it's just an ordinary watch with nothing special. The Seiko is my favourite but it's more than 25 years ago and I prefer to have a great care of it. Actually I like the Citizen much more so I go for it. And it cost 1/20 than the Rolex...

And, to end my post, I don't care at all at other comments: I wear a watch only for my personal pleasure because each time I want to know what time is it, then I take a look at my watch and I think by myself "ahhh, what a wonderful watch". This is what I want from my watch !


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## Turnaround (Jun 30, 2008)

To the masses, even a Rolex is just a watch. 

It's the blind leading the blind. ;-)

Enjoy your Seiko.

I have a Citizen Chronomaster coming to me. Looking forward to having such an incredible watch that most people will pass by.


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## ky70 (Jun 3, 2009)

This account is not a surprise. Seiko is not the watch brand to wear if someone wants folks to fall out over their wrist selection (or even appreciate it for anywhere close to what it is). You have to really love Seiko to buy the high end pieces because the casual observer will assume Seiko=$300 tops.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

ky70 said:


> This account is not a surprise. Seiko is not the watch brand to wear if someone wants folks to fall out over their wrist selection (or even appreciate it for anywhere close to what it is). You have to really love Seiko to buy the high end pieces because the casual observer will assume Seiko=$300 tops.


I don't think people are just drawn to high-end/expensive Seikos because we "really love Seiko"... more like, 'we like to appreciate fine timepieces, regardless of price or brand'


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## CrystalBall (Nov 2, 2011)

Pro Diver said:


> Great way to raise the blood pressure of the assembled masses here on WUS.
> 
> Let us not forget that we are probably a very small minority when it comes to watches. Most people are ignorant and are only impressed by the big names (mostly the regal Swiss brands) primarily because of their marketing campaigns. But part of the blame goes to Seiko since the company sells its best only in Japan. Yes, I know there are a few Grand Seiko dealers here in the US but if the public got a taste of MM 300's, Sumo's, and even Ananta's at Macy's and jewelry/watch retailers, far more people WOULD be impressed when we flash our Seiko's.


You are right. The "man in the street" will recognise Rolex and possibly Omega, Tag and Breitling as "the names to have." Here in the UK, the most popular watch brands seem to be Accurist, Rotary, Casio and Sekonda, together with fashion names such as DKNY and Adidas. A "cheap" quartz Seiko has an average price of ~£200-£225, which is roughly 2-3 times the price of Accurist & Co and not an insignificant amount of money. The watch enthusiast fraternity may look down on Seiko, but in the wider scheme of things they are actually an above average watch. Hardened enthusiasts are so used to spending eye-watering amounts that they lose touch with reality and forget that they are part of a tiny minority.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

I have both a Rolex 16613 and a GS SBGA029. Both are magnificent time pieces. It is true that just about everybody and anybody will recognize a Rolex, but an exceptional few will recognize a GS. 

I wear my GS 20x more than my Rolex. I can't really explain why, but if you don't own or have thorough knowledge of a GS, you wouldn't understand anyway. To each his own.

The few times I wear my Rolex, I completely enjoy it.


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## anjasola (Jul 21, 2008)

Always makes me smile when someone says it.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Just admiring the fact that the time has'nt deviated even 1 second since I picked it a few weeks ago and my buddy confirmed his Ananta Moonphase that I sold him is still to the second after a month... Gotta love those spring drives  I've even been wearing it around the house all weekend which I've never done with other watches in the past!

Heres a shot with one of my other collectibles from my other hobby Entomology... To each his own right


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## PriceIsRight (Sep 7, 2011)

Love this watch - have been drooling over web pics of it for a long time, but still haven't seen metal. Great watch - under the radar, over the radar, behind it, where ever.


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## wishihadawatch (Dec 7, 2011)

You can usually tell the people who KNOW WATCHES vs the folks who dont know watches.

RESPONSE FROM FOLKS WHO DONT KNOW WATCHES:

uknown: "Is it a Rolex?" Nothing compares to a Rolex!!!

you: 'why?"

Uknown person: "I dont know Rolex are super expensive!!!"

CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE WHO APPRECIATES WATCHES:

Person: what movement does it have? Face made of?


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## wishihadawatch (Dec 7, 2011)

swiss ghost said:


> unfortunately some people feel the way you do and its just not true in a lot of cases. some people actually buy rolex because of the history and the quality.


Key word in your quote is "SOME' Majority dont know nothing about Rolex and buy it because they want others to ask them 'How much did that cost" and so they can brag....


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## JRoss (Mar 1, 2008)

I think a lot of it has to with watch lovers like us relating personally to the construction, the history, the connection to our timepieces as opposed to the status factor that expensive watches bring to some others. Those "others" may or may not ever "get it", and we just have to accept that. Try to educate - don't take it personally.

I have a Timex automatic with the Seagull movement. I love wearing it and if it seems appropriate, explaining the history of the movement, the connection to Venus movements and Swiss watches, etc., and you can see instantly - if the eyes glaze over, they just don't get it. But you have tried.

Same thing with Seiko. Most Vietnam era veterans have a lot of respect for Seiko even if they do not own one today. You would see all those TV dial and Bullhead Seiko's worn by homebound VN vets in the airports. The 6309 was the go-to diver. In the late 60's and early 70's Seiko was extremely common with full color ads in magazines but now there are many more relatively lower priced watches on the market, and so to many Seiko is just another name when price shopping on line. 

When you are out for status, less price = less good, right?

Accounting for inflation many of the older Seikos would be as expensive as Omega's or Rolexe's of today, thus easily accounting for the GS lineup.

And many 60 - 70 's Swiss watches had plated brass cases, plastic crystals, weak lume, and cheap (by today's standards) bracelets too, reflecting the higher labor costs before world markets dominated, consumer standards and expectations, and the effect of inflation over the years, among other factors.

Today watches in general and especially lower price watches are greatly improved, but the market is also flooded at the lower and mid price levels, fooling many into thinking that only expensive name brand Swiss watches are any good. Actually even a cheap Timex or Casio has a lot going for it.

You also have to remember that the person who seems really ignorant about watches may be a totally gonzo car nut, stamp collector, or Call of Duty warrior.

Each to his/her own.

All one can do is educate when possible, and ignore when appropriate.


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## LGH (May 24, 2010)

ky70 said:


> You have to really love Seiko to buy the high end pieces because the casual observer will assume Seiko=$300 tops.


From your statement I conclude the only reason for you to wear a watch is for showing off your wealth? If it is not, please elaborate on this quote because I am honestly curious.



canteaus said:


> I don't think people are just drawn to high-end/expensive Seikos because we "really love Seiko"... more like, 'we like to appreciate fine timepieces, regardless of price or brand'


Well put.


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## TaylorFade (Dec 26, 2011)

This thread is the perfect example of why I will never own a Rolex or a GS. In the case of the former, I just don't like the way Rolexs look and I don't want to answer all of the "is it real?" queries or even put up with the scoffs of asuming it's a fake. As far as the latter goes, I don't want to have to educate the "it's just a Sieko" crowd.

I'm not a brand whore, but if I *do* have to educate a non-WIS, I would rather do it on the movement and quality. Not defending the brand.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

TaylorFade said:


> I'm not a brand whore, but if I *do* have to educate a non-WIS, I would rather do it on the movement and quality. Not defending the brand.


Interesting opinion.

What brand would you say lies within that medium? $5K+ watches that aren't Rolex?


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Just for the record guys I didn't intend for this to be a Rolex bashing thread... Just wanted to share some experiences in a lighthearted way. I've owned several Rolex in the past and would get a pre-DSSD Seadweller in a second if I could find a sweet deal used. I learned much about watches on the Rolex Forums when I first started collecting and you couldn't find a nicer bunch of WIS who also happen to love their Rolexes as well... So everyone enjoy your beautiful watches (whatever brand you prefer) and a happy 2012 to all


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Look on the bright side. At least no low-life will mug you for it. After all . . . "it's just a Seiko."

Screw the ignorant masses. Those are the same types of folks who think that a MB Solitaire is the greatest luxury pen that one can buy. :roll:

If one of them gets particularly annoying, educate them on what a truly high-quality watch actually happens to be.


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## swiss ghost (Dec 27, 2011)

wishihadawatch said:


> Key word in your quote is "SOME' Majority dont know nothing about Rolex and buy it because they want others to ask them 'How much did that cost" and so they can brag....


im confused??

because the MAJORITY are like this than watch lovers should NOT ever buy a rolex????

foolishness


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## ky70 (Jun 3, 2009)

ky70 said:


> This account is not a surprise. Seiko is not the watch brand to wear if someone wants folks to fall out over their wrist selection (or even appreciate it for anywhere close to what it is). You have to really love Seiko to buy the high end pieces because the casual observer will assume Seiko=$300 tops.





LGH said:


> From your statement I conclude the only reason for you to wear a watch is for showing off your wealth? If it is not, please elaborate on this quote because I am honestly curious.


That would be incorrect...I'm a Seiko enthusiast. I'm speaking from the perspective of the normal reactions/perceptions of the general public. No one has ever gotten overly excited by any Seiko on my wrist...most don't even notice them. I wear them because I really like them and am not concerned with the reaction I recieve.

P.S. I am a huge show off. You can catch me any day of the week flaunting my wealth in front of all the commoners that can not afford my luxurios lifestyle.;-)


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## wangjjang (Oct 11, 2011)

I really dont let it get to me...

I love my snowflake and I couldnt care less about what anyone else thinks. It makes me smile every time i look at my wrist...So does my newly acquired speedmaster 

If someone asks me what it is, ill tell them. If they seem interested, im more than happy to go into detail. If i come across someone who recognises it, i know theyre an awesome individual ^^


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## James Haury (Apr 10, 2008)

The people who say that are Jerks.


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## wilson_smyth (Aug 4, 2008)

I live in western Europe, where Seiko are known as a cheapo quartz watch, up there (or down there) with lorus, seconda and other cheapo rubbish quartz watches.
The thing is you cannot get affordable automatic watches in stores in western europe. want anything decent, be prepared to pay 700 euro's +

But here's the thing. Whenever i see someone wearing a SKX00- , a Monster, a sp0rk or any other automatic seiko, i know that person is a watch person!
likewise, i have been approached a few times and asked where i got my monster, and more recently my SKXA35. 

To most people who care nothing about watches at all they are just pretty watches.
To some who know very little ( and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) they think seiko are cheap and rubbish.
To a small few they are an excellent watch, super rare ( in my part of the world anyway) and a sign that I am a little more discerning about my watch than most people in the country.
And to me, they are awesome, beautiful watches that i love wearing. Most people dont know they are automatic. thats just something that gives me a little bit of happiness!

SO, wear the watch because its a watch you want to wear, and if someone notices it for what it is, enjoy it!



(on a side note, I would never turn down a rollex, so if anyone here doesnt want to be seen with a rollex for fear of being thought of having more money than sense, PM me and il be happy to take it off your hands!)


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

who cares about general opinions...
once at a cool sea food restaurant in a very bad neighborhood the owner was wearing a AP ROO and I asked if he wasn't afraid of being robbed and the guy replied "no worries, nobody knows what it is..." he was right...in general people don't know that much about watches...(and the bad crowd near the restaurant were after D&G, cK, Armani what so ever watches...:-d)


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## debito (Nov 13, 2011)

Nowadays, a lot of people don't even wear watches. For many, watches are either tools or status symbols. There is nothing in-between.

I think if you are wearing a high-quality timepiece with a subtle design, few will notice it. It's not so much about Seiko versus well-known-luxury-brand, but rather restrained design versus bling design. If you wear a big shiny Brietling Navitimer, then people will notice and recognize it as a luxury watch. If you wear an IWC Flieger, then most won't notice it and few will appreciate it. GS has a classic and restrained design philosophy, and that contributes to the ho-hum responses you're noticing.


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## skin diver (Nov 26, 2011)

Ottovonn said:


> I also think it's funny how the discussion digressed slightly into the generic "Rolex is for ignorant snobs, Seiko's the brand for people who truly understand quality" discussion.
> 
> I find it fascinating because a lot of people who bash Rolex owners in this way -- by setting themselves as part of the exclusive Seiko club -- are acting just as snobbishly ignorant as the so-called "majority of Rolex owners who know nothing about watches."
> 
> ...


I think this is one of the best responses I've read on WUS regarding any subject. Very well put.

As I said on the other thread I have no interest in GS because of how Seiko degraded their own name by pumping out oodles of low priced department store time pieces for decades. I can't imagine paying the price asked for a GS and I have no problem with the price/value of my Rolex. I genuinely prefer the brand hands down over Seiko (not even close) and yes, I'm quite versed in the horology of both.

Do I respect GS for what it is and those who quietly wear it on the basis of its quality? Absolutely. I just find it hard to stomach the fan boys who want to drag down Rolex because some of their owners are schmucks and their GS gets no "street-cred". The GS owners I know are very humble about their choice and bought it because of it intrinsic value. That compared to others who don't own or can't afford either and chant "GS rules and Rolex sucks" while wearing their dime store Seiko.

I did my own non-scientific poll about Seiko recently and not surprisingly got literally ZERO response about GS... Nearly everyone who is not an enthusiast ranks Seiko as a quality low-end watch and couldn't understand why anyone would pay the price of a GS.

One of my friends put it this way... It's like wearing a Harley Davidson on your wrist versus a Yamaha. You don't buy a HD over a Japanese bike because it's more reliable. It's not--there's no contest. You buy the HD because of the Harley Davidson heritage, tradition and soul the bike has. You expect that you'll be spending more time in the shop--it's part of the deal.

That isn't a perfect analogy but I think captures the spirit of this discussion quite well. Buy the Honda or Yamaha and enjoy your ride... don't complain to me that you're not cool because it's not a Harley. Its not about that. If you want one buy one. Just keep riding.

By the way...
GS, Rolex or not that's a good looking watch.


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## baserock love (Feb 1, 2011)

I don't know about japan, but here, i highly doubt almost anybody that would drop the coin a GS costs would not be into watches. From my experience, most people that own Rolexes while they can appreciate them don't really know jack about rolexes or watches in general, they merely wanted a rolex so they could be seen with a rolex. My landlord's incredibly bizarre sister has some lady rolex her ex husband bought her as an anniversary gift. We got on the subject of watches and she starts going off without elaborating about all "the dozens of things it can do which she never uses" and how it's such an amazing "contraption". Upon looking at it, it looked like it was just a ladies datejust of some kind.

I have only met one person that knew about the reality of the quality of seiko watches and that was merely because his dad owned and was fanatical about his seikos. If somebody drops 6 grand on a GS over a rolex or omega, it's probably because they're more interested in what's inside the watch and what goes into it as opposed to flaunting their disposable income, since with a GS people are going to assume you have no disposable income, and that's why you're rocking a seiko.

I"m not at all saying theres anything wrong about rolexes, if i bought a luxury swiss automatic it would be a rolex or zenith most likely.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Not only a very well thought out reply (I even learned a couple of things!) but I also took some time to peruse your watch list... WOW! Very impressive... Do you give guided tours of your watch vault? 



JRoss said:


> I think a lot of it has to with watch lovers like us relating personally to the construction, the history, the connection to our timepieces as opposed to the status factor that expensive watches bring to some others. Those "others" may or may not ever "get it", and we just have to accept that. Try to educate - don't take it personally.
> 
> I have a Timex automatic with the Seagull movement. I love wearing it and if it seems appropriate, explaining the history of the movement, the connection to Venus movements and Swiss watches, etc., and you can see instantly - if the eyes glaze over, they just don't get it. But you have tried.
> 
> ...


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

A snowflake and a Speedy... Nice combo Chris! Tell me is your Speedy one of those beautiful LE Patch versions I've heard so much about? Where in the world did you find that? 



wangjjang said:


> I really dont let it get to me...
> 
> I love my snowflake and I couldnt care less about what anyone else thinks. It makes me smile every time i look at my wrist...So does my newly acquired speedmaster
> 
> If someone asks me what it is, ill tell them. If they seem interested, im more than happy to go into detail. If i come across someone who recognises it, i know theyre an awesome individual ^^


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Well, its somewhat like comparing Mercedes Benz and Lexus (or pick your own German and Japanese brand).

Mercedes invented the latest technology; Lexus copied it and made it way better; not only that, but in some cases they have their own innovations and they've succeeded to marry Luxury with reliability and bring it to the masses by setting the price point that is affordable.

That being said, people know that Lexus builds reliable cars that everyone drives; hence no biggie! the former on the other hand don't build cars, they build "Mercedes Benz".

When you hand your Lexus keys to a valet in front of a restaurant, your car gets driven out to the parking lot. When you hand your Benz keys to the valet, he/she leaves the car sitting right in front of the restaurant entrance and put orange cones around it.

All the heads of states with the exception of the US, British and French have Benz as their official car. To address the concerns of those who may choose to counter argue, I know for sure that NO head of state uses Lexus as their official car.

All in all; Luxury & Prestige = Mercedes/Rolex / Affordable Luxury & Upstarts = Lexus/Seiko GS

I believe that there is nothing wrong with either, and this world has enough space for both to live in Harmony.

For the sake of full disclosure; my personal car is a Mercedes Benz....








and my daily go-to watch is a Seiko.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Well, its somewhat like comparing Mercedes Benz and Lexus (or pick your own German and Japanese brand).
> 
> Mercedes invented the latest technology; Lexus copied it and made it way better; not only that, but in some cases they have their own innovations and they've succeeded to marry Luxury with reliability and bring it to the masses by setting the price point that is affordable.


I'm sorry but this is borderline racist.

You cannot just use the car industry and apply it the the world of horology because the makers of Seiko also happen to be Japanese.

The Seiko watch company has made more innovations in horology than 90% + of other individual Swiss watch companies. Sure, put together, the Swiss may have made more innovations in horology (keyword "may"), but as an individual company, Seiko is without a doubt one of the most innovative.

And most importantly, Seiko is one of the few companies that STILL continues to push out new innovations and technologies. It's been ages since the "big" Swiss watch companies came out with anything really new. Seiko practically reinvented the watch multiple times while the Swiss were making the same mechanical movements that they have been making for decades (not that there's anything wrong with that)

When was the last time Rolex, omega, breitling, tag, zenith, iwc... Etc came out with a completely new type of movement?

-The seiko watch company produced completely original mechanical movements in the 60s/70s that kicked butt at the COSC. 
-virtually brought the downfall of Swiss watch companies starting with the first production quartz watch. (many of those swiss companies still exist but were bailed out by investors who essentially replaced the watchmakers) 
-seiko was an innovator in the digital watch 
- seiko invented the kinetic drive movement 
-seiko invented the spring drive 
-seiko is one of the few remaining watch companies that still does the majority of its manufacturing in-house

I would be very careful in making assumptions about Seiko being "copiers of the latest technology"

Jeez....usually I try to keep my personal opinions to myself on this forum but I cannot deal with ignorance at this level...even if you wear a seiko.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> I'm sorry but this is borderline racist.
> 
> You cannot just use the car industry and apply it the the world of horology because the makers of Seiko also happen to be Japanese.
> 
> ...


Well if I'm Ignorant, then you're a standing example of arrogance without reason. I never said that Seiko did not innovate. They certainly did, and when it comes to higher end watches, *Seiko's innovation is "affordable luxury" analogous to the "Lexus" brand.
*
The bottom line is:

In the automotive industry: Germany's image is "Superior Engineering", American to "Raw Muscle", Italian to "Exotic Style", British to "Sophistication", Japanese to "Reliability" and Korean to "Affordability".

In the world of Horology, its not very different when its comes to image: Swiss rule the roost in "precision & prestige", Germans claims "superior engineering", Italians continue to push "Exotic over-styling" and Japanese continue to sell "Reliability".

There just can't be 2 opinions about this.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> ...It's been ages since the "big" Swiss watch companies came out with anything really new.


Perhaps you mean, that the Swiss did not come out with anything new "that you can afford in a Seiko price range"??


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## wilson_smyth (Aug 4, 2008)

Wow! Topics such as Racism and elitism. this is getting a little heavy for discussion on watches. Think il opt out now!


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Well if I'm Ignorant, then you're a standing example of arrogance without reason. I never said that Seiko did not innovate. They certainly did, and when it comes to higher end watches, Seiko's innovation is "affordable luxury" analogous to the "Lexus" brand.
> 
> The bottom line is:
> 
> ...


I am not arguing about the "image" that these Japanese and Swiss have.

Obviously, the Swiss have "prestige" in spades that the Japanese cannot touch.

What I'm talking about, is that your original post (especially in the lines that I quoted), you were not just talking about "image," you were to a certain extent, making a sweeping generalization about the actual innovations of the Seiko watch company vis-a-vis the image of Japanese companies in general.


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## salimoneus (Feb 10, 2011)

There are a lot of ignorant people out there, and also many that are brand snobs. I don't listen to or waste my time with either.

Sweet watch, enjoy!


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

*"it's just a seiko"* comment only highlights the "image" challenge with a Seiko. Comparing to cars, people don't normally ask you what type of engine you have behind that grill. They only care about the logo you have on top of the grill.

I'll give you an example; my college roommate's father back in the day offered to give him $25,000 towards the purchase of a car as a graduation gift. We all came up with suggestions of makes and models that he should buy. Pre-owned BMW's, brand new VW Jetta Wolfsberg edition, Acura, Lexus etc. etc. You name it and there was a recommendation on the table. My roommate took all those suggestions and went out for car shopping. He came back with a "Fully Loaded (or as he called it souped-up) Saturn". The car had everything for the day. ABS brakes, Dual Airbags, CD Changer, Auto Door Locks and Windows, Leather Seats, the whole gamut. But guess what; at the end of the day, he was still driving a Saturn albeit a $25,000 Saturn.

Lets take another example; McDonalds has started to sell high end coffee and Capucino drinks to compete with Starbucks and honestly their Lattes taste better than Starbucks. But, when you ask a client to meet you out for a coffee, you do not suggest meeting at a McDonalds. You propose Starbucks or a boutique coffee shop.

At the end of the day brother, accurate time keeping is "expected" lowest common denominator. Every watchmaker be it Swiss or Japanese must conform to otherwise they will not be in the business of Horology.

When it comes to price point, its the Image and Exclusivity that we all want to pay for.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

salimoneus said:


> There are a lot of ignorant people out there, and also many that are brand snobs. I don't listen to or waste my time with either.
> 
> Sweet watch, enjoy!


So let me get this straight; you're saying that those who only prefer to buy "Rolex" or "patek" or "Panerai" blah blah blah are "Ignorant Brand Snobs". And those who only buy "Seiko", "Citizen", "Casio", "Orient" blah blah blah.. are what???

To the OP, Yes, sweet watch indeed! wear it often and wear it with pride!


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## CrystalBall (Nov 2, 2011)

In my part of Western Europe, Seiko definitely isn't regarded as a cheapo quartz watch brand. Seiko prices are in no way comparable to Lorus or Sekonda (on average, ~5x the price of these). They get respect as a quality "middle" brand, a bit like the Honda of the watch world. Worthy, but a bit uninspiring and lacking in image. Part of the problem is a dearth of interesting, original designs and the over-reliance on Kinetic technology. This is widely regarded as being inferior to Eco-Drive and also a bit pointless, as most quartz watches now offer 4-5 year battery life anyway. Seiko, you need to start making desirable watches again and give some serious thought to your brand management, advertising and marketing.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

CrystalBall said:


> In my part of Western Europe, Seiko definitely isn't regarded as a cheapo quartz watch brand. Seiko prices are in no way comparable to Lorus or Sekonda (on average, ~5x the price of these). They get respect as a quality "middle" brand, a bit like the Honda of the watch world. Worthy, but a bit uninspiring and lacking in image. Part of the problem is a dearth of interesting, original designs and the over-reliance on Kinetic technology. This is widely regarded as being inferior to Eco-Drive and also a bit pointless, as most quartz watches now offer 4-5 year battery life anyway. Seiko, you need to start making desirable watches again and give some serious thought to your brand management, advertising and marketing.


+1 to that.

To me watches are just like cars offering a fine blend of design and functionality. I apply these 10 criteria when I'm shopping for a car, and its the same 10 criteria for when I'm shopping for a watch:


Product Design
Product Reliability (drive train in a car and movement in a watch)
Product Warranty
Product Rarity
Product Affordability
Product Desirability (Resale Value)
Quality of Materials
Quality of Workmanship
Quality Control
Quality of Customer Service

IMHO, its 4, 5, and 6 that separate Seiko from the Big name Swiss. All other criteria being equal, where Big Swiss focus on "more rare" and therefore "less affordable" and consequently "more desirable", Seiko focuses on "mass production", "more affordable" and consequently "less desirable". That's the image difference.


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## cit1991 (Dec 27, 2011)

I'd rather hear that it's only a Seiko than be continually asked if my Rolex is real.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Grand Seiko is the very definition of quality over marketing hype and all the other BS that exists in the watch world. 

Someone wearing a GS not only has taste but isn't worried about what others think of him or his watch.


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## Johnny Wishbone (Jun 30, 2011)

JRoss said:


> I think a lot of it has to with watch lovers like us relating personally to the construction, the history, the connection to our timepieces as opposed to the status factor that expensive watches bring to some others. Those "others" may or may not ever "get it", and we just have to accept that. Try to educate - don't take it personally.
> 
> I have a Timex automatic with the Seagull movement. I love wearing it and if it seems appropriate, explaining the history of the movement, the connection to Venus movements and Swiss watches, etc., and you can see instantly - if the eyes glaze over, they just don't get it. But you have tried.
> 
> ...


Well put, and that is all true.

But that does not give anyone who does not have any watch knowledge an excuse to blurt out remarks like the OP mentioned.
They would protest in the same way if one of us made similar remarks about a field THEY are totally into.
Am I right or am I correct?


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## ZASKAR36 (Sep 25, 2009)

In short...I think what most of the posts are saying in their own way is, "Yes" get used to it LOL. 

But I say, "whatever" or rather as the saying goes "WHATEVER DUDE" LOL...

...to those people who made that comment to you. They are unfortunate victims of years of brand marketing. Mindless consumer souls who base their opinion on nothing but emotions. Emotions that Rolex as a company have spent millions of dollars and years on creating. That is not to say they don't put out phenomenal product...only that they have done a fantastic job of brand marketing and maintaining their brand for decades. I am a career brand marketeer and I have to give kudos and admiration to Rolex for maintaining their brand ID for all these years. To have a mass number of consumers know your brand and associate it with status and high quality sight unseen, most of whom probably have never owned let alone even touched your product at all in their lifetimes is BRAND MARKETING GENIUS! 

Still doesn't take away from the plain, undeniable fact that your GS is one hell of a watch, made with dedication and skill, from one of the best watch brands out there.

It's funny...because the other day I had lunch with a very good friend of mine who I haven't seen in years. He knows how finatic I have become about watches over the last few years and he showed me his Tag Aquaracer he picked up while on vacation recently. Beautiful watch...but as I stared at his Aquaracer on his wrist and then at my own with my Magrette Regattare 2011 with really a lesser Miyota movement inside...I couldn't help but think to myself, I would choose my Magrette Regattare 2011 over that Aquaracer any day...and I guess I did.

I think most of us on WUS have realized that brand alone only takes us so far. We need to be happy with brand reputation, quality, and design, and a millions of other little facts before we vote with our dollars. And although we may all be crazy WIS, I think it's no different than any consumer wanting to be an educated consumer before they plunked down their hard earned money. 

I would rather be one of the educated that has a GS on my wrist than any of the mindless victims of brand marketing who say, "it's just a Seiko" any day of the week.


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

The metaphor of Grand Seiko as Lexus is just terrible and inaccurate. Lexus is a mass produced product, designed almost specifically as an interpretation of western luxury. Grand Seikos are far from mass produced (more Lexus made in week than GS makes all year, ime) and designed to appeal to an eastern sense of luxury. They could not be further apart. There is no automobile brand that is synonymous with GS.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

geremy said:


> The metaphor of Grand Seiko as Lexus is just terrible and inaccurate. Lexus is a mass produced product, designed almost specifically as an interpretation of western luxury. Grand Seikos are far from mass produced (more Lexus made in week than GS makes all year, ime) and designed to appeal to an eastern sense of luxury. They could not be further apart. There is no automobile brand that is synonymous with GS.


So does Rolex.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

So Grand Seiko's range from $3000 - $7000. The OP watch is GS SBGE001 which runs upwards of $6,500. The GS is a beautiful watch, but literally tens of great GMT watches can be had at that price point. 

My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko... if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch... Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


There are simple answers for this:

1) You don't care about brand recognition/prestige (from non-WIS people). 
and/or
2) You respect Seiko as a watch company for making fine timepieces, believing that it is equal or better to Swiss watches in the same price range. 
and/or
3) You are a brand snob (for Seiko)


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

canteaus said:


> So does Rolex.


I'm not sure how to interpret this response...sarcasm maybe? Rolex's are great watches but they are most definitely mass produced. Upwards of a 1 million per year. I doubt any are touched by human hands until final inspection before packaging (and perhaps COSC certification, but then probably not). The number of GS made per year is 2 orders of magnitude lower. This is not to say that Rolex doesn't make a wonderful robust and accurate watch, because they do. However, the only reason a comparison between the GS and the Rolex brand is valid is that they are the only two brands who create almost everything in house. Rolex has a long history of absorbing outside suppliers (they refine their own gold now!). Seiko has a long history of creating from within.


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

thecustomer said:


> So Grand Seiko's range from $3000 - $7000. The OP watch is GS SBGE001 which runs upwards of $6,500. The GS is a beautiful watch, but literally tens of great GMT watches can be had at that price point.
> 
> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


The SBGE001 is actually quite different from many of the other GMTs available. Heck most GMTs are even true GMTs! The GS spring drive has ~15 sec per month accuracy (compared to the normal ~-3/+6 sec per day of COSC). The spring drive rate is not affected by orientation, and much less affected by temperature compared to an auto. The GS has a longer power reserve than most watches (72 hours, most are 40-50 range), the GS has a power reserve indicator (I can't think of another GMT with PR complication), a sapphire bezel, a fine 5 link bracelet with smart clasp, screwed links and powerful lume. Another important factor for many is that there is not much text on the dial (though it is more verbose than many other GS). The GS has a cap over the stanchion that attach the hands to the movement (most watches do not) and a perfectly smooth sweeping seconds hand. Yes these are all minor minor details, but to many WIS they all add up to a unique and remarkable watch.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

geremy said:


> I'm not sure how to interpret this response...sarcasm maybe? Rolex's are great watches but they are most definitely mass produced. Upwards of a 1 million per year. I doubt any are touched by human hands until final inspection before packaging (and perhaps COSC certification, but then probably not). The number of GS made per year is 2 orders of magnitude lower. This is not to say that Rolex doesn't make a wonderful robust and accurate watch, because they do. However, the only reason a comparison between the GS and the Rolex brand is valid is that they are the only two brands who create almost everything in house. Rolex has a long history of absorbing outside suppliers (they refine their own gold now!). Seiko has a long history of creating from within.


It wasn't sarcasm.

I agree with you that mass produced does not necessarily mean lower quality. It's true, the QC at Rolex is some of the best in the world and at the same time, they pump out more watches than most watch companies (and especially more watches than GS)

By using rolex as an example, I was trying to allude to that in the watch industry, mass produced watches does not necessarily equate to lesser prestige. Also, I was trying to support the idea that comparisons between the car industry and GSs were invalid.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


There is something about a hand assembled watch that was carefully inspected along every step of the build by a true craftsman. Not just some guy doing QC at the end of a robotic assembly line where $10k swiss made watches are being dumped. It stirs all of the romantic emotion of the traditional Japanese art forms, like sword making, where everything the craftsman is will be represented by his final product. And when you hold that final product in your hands you know it is the absolute best that could be made by him. Also, it helps that they are more accurate as well. I've owned my GS SBGA029 for 2 months now, it is neither gained nor lost a second yet. Rolex is nice too, just made differently, and to me it has a different feel.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

This had become a "lets beat up on the swiss" thread. Seriously folks!? Are we really arguing that Swiss watch making methods are somehow lesser than that of Seiko?


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Less than Seiko, no. When it comes to the GS, yes they are, sorry.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

cold_beer839 said:


> Less than Seiko, no. When it comes to the GS, yes they are, sorry.


ok, woah.

So far in this thread, I have been pretty pro-Grand Seiko, but you CANNOT be serious about saying that all Swiss watches are less than GS.

Grand Seikos are very nice (handmade) production watches. In fact, they are some of the world's best production watches. 
BUT, you *cannot compare* a run of the mill GS to an ultra-exclusive and complicated Swiss watch. Some exclusive Credors might compete with the most exclusive Swiss watches but GS just simply does not.

For instance, a Patek Phillipe with heavy complications I think, are in another league of its own. In fact, GS doesn't even make watches with complications...


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

I said, "Less than Seiko, no. When it comes to GS, yes they are, sorry." I did not imply all Seiko regardless, hence the 1st part of my reply.

But Patek Phillipe? Really? How far do want to expand the comparison?

Lets keep it simple and in the same ballpark. "Run of the mill" GS is a better made watch than 'run of the mill' swiss. And I think you agree...



canteaus said:


> Grand Seikos are very nice (handmade) production watches. In fact, they are some of the world's best production watches.


GS's are not 'ultra exclusive and complicated', but they are extremely well crafted by hand. Once again we agree.


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## sriswit (Feb 4, 2010)

thecustomer said:


> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


In my experience, the thing that turns me toward Grand Seiko is the love of high-quality watches. I and many of my GS friends are watch collectors and we only pay attention to Grand Seiko after years of building our collections. The typical reason: *we are curious what the fuss is all about*. Personally, I have been collecting mechanical watches for over 20 years. In 2008, I was waiting for my connection in Japan and was browsing various gift shops. Then I saw a GS showcase. I was floored by the prices of those GSs, especially the SBGM003, which caught my eyes. So once I got back to the state, I took the plunge and bought my first used GS (SBGR017) from a gentleman in California. It was $1650, which I thought was not a bad price for a decent watch. Boy, was I surprised. The pattern dial, the cool hands, the polishing, the bracelet (that model and a couple others have a very unique bracelet), and the movement completely blew me away. From that point, I started to learn more about Grand Seiko, its heritage, and its design philosophy.









Not long after that, I bought my first Spring-Drive, then the second Grand Seiko, then I sold the Spring-Drive and replaced it with the GS Snow Flake. By that time, I began to sell off my Swiss Collection (I had about 15 Swiss pieces at that time). I only own two Swiss pieces now (a JLC mastermoon and Zenith chronomaster) but I have several GS pieces (new and used), an SD Ananta, and a Credor (and another Credor incoming). My reason for keeping only two Swiss pieces: they were my two best watches in my prior Swiss collection and Grand Seiko/Credor belong in the same class as them. They are very high quality watches that are within my price range (I never pay more than $6000 for a new or used watch).

Do I care whether people know what I have on my wrist? Not one bit.

My only issue with buying Grand Seiko now is the poor exchange rate. The GS pieces are getting a lot more expensive in the US. However, the used ones are still a bargain.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

cold_beer839 said:


> I said, "Less than Seiko, no. Whenit comes to GS, yes they are, sorry." I did not imply all Seiko regardless, hence the 1st part of my reply.
> 
> But Patek Phillipe? Really? How far do want to expand the comparison?
> 
> ...


I did not "imply all Seiko" either, so when I quoted you, I only referred to GS. You weren't clear the first time that you were only referring to "run of the mill" swiss. No matter, we know now that that was what you meant and it is a much more valid argument.


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## RumbleOfThunder (Jan 1, 2012)

canteaus said:


> ok, woah.
> 
> So far in this thread, I have been pretty pro-Grand Seiko, but you CANNOT be serious about saying that all Swiss watches are less than GS.
> 
> ...


I think you know full well the comparison being made isn't with the ultra high end brands such as Patek. The price difference is massive. It's with Rolex/Omega/Breitling etc, and in that regard, GS comes out on top.

Edit - just seen your reply clearing this up..


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Correct, there are some beyond exceptional swiss made watches that are top tier. But add some more gold and diamonds to the Credor Spring Drive Sonnerie and it'll be a contender there to, IMHO.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

canteaus said:


> It's true, the QC at Rolex is some of the best in the world . . .


Perhaps at one time it used to be. But when other forum members start reporting ridiculous QC issues such as spotting dust on the inside of a Rolex, on the dials themselves; then it's a different story. And I don't mean just one Rolex either. My cheapest watch that I bought years ago ($55 Timex Expedition) doesn't even suffer from that QC issue.

I'd still buy a vintage Rolex. But not a new one. And certainly not one with a white dial that could easily hide dust.


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## wishihadawatch (Dec 7, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> This had become a "lets beat up on the swiss" thread. Seriously folks!? Are we really arguing that Swiss watch making methods are somehow lesser than that of Seiko?


how about 'MY ROLEX IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN YOUR SEIKO HENCE THATS WHY ITS BETTER' thread...


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## WIS_Chronomaster (Sep 17, 2007)

Its a nice watch, i would sure give that one a second look - and not because its 'just' A Seiko its a VERY nice watch.


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## waldoh (Nov 20, 2011)

Too long to read but...

It comes down to this, Seiko is a great Japanese watch maker with in-house movements. Unfortunately they heavily rely on there cheap (in price, not quality) mass produced watch line for sales. In the US this very much hurts there image and places them in the category of a fancy Gshock or Timex or Swatch, even though there GS line is on the same level as Rolex and Omega (two of the most well known brands). 

Blame Seiko for there business model and ignore the majority of Americans as they are ignorant (not stupid). if you really care about image and what other people think of your watch, wear a heavily advertised Swiss brand (most Americans will probably look down on German watches as well because all they know is Swiss=Good).


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

RumbleOfThunder said:


> I think you know full well the comparison being made isn't with the ultra high end brands such as Patek. The price difference is massive. It's with Rolex/Omega/Breitling etc, and in that regard, GS comes out on top.
> 
> Edit - just seen your reply clearing this up..


I am sorry but I completely disagree. I will NOT argue that Rolex, Omega and Breitling has a better production method than GS, but I will argue that it is at least "equal". Also, I will argue that it is not GS that set the standard for this high quality hand made production cycle but Rolex, Omega, Breitling that "set this as a standard" and Seiko just replicated similar high quality standard with their GS.

You have to remember that it is Omega that is worn on the F1 tracks, in space, on the moon, in the depths of the sea; not GS.


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## videogameland (Oct 24, 2011)

Hi guys, I was wondering out of curiousity, on the official grand seiko website,
Accuracy+5 ~ -3 seconds/ day for mechanical automatic, but I cannot find it on the Rolex website, and I cannot find it on the Patek Phillip website, does anyone have this information? Thanks in advance.


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## RumbleOfThunder (Jan 1, 2012)

thecustomer said:


> I am sorry but I completely disagree. I will NOT argue that Rolex, Omega and Breitling has a better production method than GS, but I will argue that it is at least "equal". Also, I will argue that it is not GS that set the standard for this high quality hand made production cycle but Rolex, Omega, Breitling that "set this as a standard" and Seiko just replicated similar high quality standard with their GS.
> 
> You have to remember that it is Omega that is worn on the F1 tracks, in space, on the moon, in the depths of the sea; not GS.


I have little interest in who "set the standard", though GS have been going since the 60's. GS are setting the standard NOW, and not resting on their laurels. Your last sentence is bumf. Outdated bumf at that. The watch of current F1 dominators Red Bull is..............the Casio Ediface. But then what does that prove?


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## RumbleOfThunder (Jan 1, 2012)

videogameland said:


> Hi guys, I was wondering out of curiousity, on the official grand seiko website,
> Accuracy+5 ~ -3 seconds/ day for mechanical automatic, but I cannot find it on the Rolex website, and I cannot find it on the Patek Phillip website, does anyone have this information? Thanks in advance.


Rolex use COSC certification so will be +6/-4 I think. Patek, I don't know.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> You have to remember that it is Omega that is worn on the F1 tracks, in space, on the moon, in the depths of the sea; not GS.


Seiko is worn on the F1 tracks, in space, and in the depths of the sea...

I can almost guarantee you that more divers wear seiko than omega.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

waldoh said:


> Too long to read but...
> 
> It comes down to this, Seiko is a great Japanese watch maker with in-house movements. Unfortunately they heavily rely on there cheap (in price, not quality) mass produced watch line for sales. In the US this very much hurts there image and places them in the category of a fancy Gshock or Timex or Swatch, even though there GS line is on the same level as Rolex and Omega (two of the most well known brands).
> 
> Blame Seiko for there business model and ignore the majority of Americans as they are ignorant (not stupid). if you really care about image and what other people think of your watch, wear a heavily advertised Swiss brand (most Americans will probably look down on German watches as well because all they know is Swiss=Good).


+1 You hit it on the nail. If a company is producing sub $200 watches and 90% of their business revenue comes from this "mass produce and flood the market" approach, then its natural that an average joe will be skeptical to see a Seiko that costs several thousand dollars. You can justify all of the advancements about Seiko to him/her all day long, but at the end of the day "its just a seiko" unfortunately.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

RumbleOfThunder said:


> I have little interest in who "set the standard", though GS have been going since the 60's. GS are setting the standard NOW, and not resting on their laurels. Your last sentence is bumf. Outdated bumf at that. The watch of current F1 dominators Red Bull is..............the Casio Ediface. But then what does that prove?


Don't worry, I was not looking for your endorsement of my comment.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

RumbleOfThunder said:


> Rolex use COSC certification so will be +6/-4 I think. Patek, I don't know.


There is a disclaimer at the bottom right hand side of the Certificate for my Grand Seiko SBGW001 that says *"In the case of actual use of this watch, rough standard of gains/losses per day is -1 ~ +10 seconds."
*
I know this for a fact that Seiko no longer issues Grand Seiko certificates that detail the individual timing performance of the new watch. Rather, they now only certify the watch as having passed the Grand Seiko standard.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> Seiko is worn on the F1 tracks, in space, and in the depths of the sea...
> 
> I can almost guarantee you that more divers wear seiko than omega.


I wouldn't argue; more divers probably do wear Seiko than Omega because they won't cry if they destroyed it.


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## nakamoomin (Jul 14, 2011)

RumbleOfThunder said:


> Rolex use COSC certification so will be +6/-4 I think. Patek, I don't know.


 I believe Rolex uses a self-imposed +5/-1 accuracy which apparently give them the right to use the wording "superlative chronometer". I'm sure the close ties to the COSC in the first place didn't hurt either...  I know that last one was probably a little bit off the field, but I find it funny that I've never seen anyone else entitled to this wording, and I'm sure there are several watchmakers that could meet (or exceed) standards of Rolex... (JLC, PATEK, SEIKO.....)


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

thecustomer said:


> There is a disclaimer at the bottom right hand side of the Certificate for my Grand Seiko SBGW001 that says *"In the case of actual use of this watch, rough standard of gains/losses per day is -1 ~ +10 seconds."
> *
> I know this for a fact that Seiko no longer issues Grand Seiko certificates that detail the individual timing performance of the new watch. Rather, they now only certify the watch as having passed the Grand Seiko standard.


Oh you mean like Rolex, Omega and almost everyone else that uses the inferior 5 position COSC standard? Sometimes if you ask nicely they will send you the certificate, sometimes not.


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## al358 (Mar 7, 2006)

Love the thread, I have had many similar comments with regard to my Marinemaster...LOL


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> I wouldn't argue; more divers probably do wear Seiko than Omega because they won't cry if they destroyed it.


May have more to do with using a timepiece that is tested and proven in those conditions since your life depends on it's accuracy and toughness. And to that end, may the diver pick his own brand.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Can't we all just get along?

Seriously guys when the topics turn to outright slamming of Swiss and rolexes and then issues of racism? Maybe we could give it a rest and get back to sharing experiences we've had with people reacting to your Seiko... Preferably in a light hearted way?

Just my 2¢...


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

kingblackbolt said:


> Can't we all just get along? Seriously guys when the topics turn to outright slamming of Swiss and rolexes and then issues of racism? Maybe we could give it a rest and get back to sharing experiences we've had with people reacting to your Seiko... Preferably in a light hearted way? Just my 2¢...


I as much as I have participated in this thread, it must agree. We have come full circle in our discussions long ago, and the comments are loosing its objectivity.

Now, we're just like two boys sitting in a sandbox arguing over whose monster truck is bigger...(mine b-))


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> I as much as I have participated in this thread, it must agree. We have come full circle in our discussions long ago, and the comments are loosing its objectivity.
> 
> Now, we're just like two boys sitting in a sandbox arguing with each other over whose monster truck is bigger...(mine b-))


Ya no kidding! I thought we were done with this thread 2 pages back when most agreed that all comparable brands have a market and they can all live in Harmony, and that its marketing and branding focus that distinguishes them.

Besides, most (and I must insist most) people buy and wear "what they like" anyways, not because its a blah blah this or a blah blah that.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

I agree 100% this thread has gone wwaaaaayyy off topic so let's agree to disagree and enjoy whatever happens to be strapped to your wrist be it a Patek, Citizen, Rolex or Seiko... Grand or otherwise 



canteaus said:


> I as much as I have participated in this thread, it must agree. We have come full circle in our discussions long ago, and the comments are loosing its objectivity.
> 
> Now, we're just like two boys sitting in a sandbox arguing with each other over whose monster truck is bigger...(mine b-))


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

I'm really glad we could all eventually come to the same conclusion:

Seiko > Patek 
Seiko > Rolex
Seiko > Omega
Seiko < Grand Seiko

Moderators, it would be greatly appreciated if you could kindly close this thread and sticky post the above hierarchy of watches.
...just kidding of course :-d


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

No way, I am strapping on my GS and gearing up for page 7 of this epic thread.

NO PRISONERS ! - YouTube


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## skin diver (Nov 26, 2011)

canteaus said:


> I as much as I have participated in this thread, it must agree. We have come full circle in our discussions long ago, and the comments are loosing its objectivity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bronte (Dec 11, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> So Grand Seiko's range from $3000 - $7000. The OP watch is GS SBGE001 which runs upwards of $6,500. The GS is a beautiful watch, but literally tens of great GMT watches can be had at that price point.
> 
> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


Why not spend $6,500 on a Seiko if you're going to spend the same on any other watch? It seems like the baseline assumption would be that two $6,500 watches would be comparable. The only reason to assume that it would be unwise to spend $6,500 on a Seiko would be if you believed that Seiko made lesser watches or if you placed significant weight on brand recognition. Since all indications are that the Grand Seiko is one of the finest watches in the $5,000-10,000 price range, it seems the onus would be on the skeptic to show that it were a bad idea to spend $6,500 on a Seiko.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Bronte said:


> Why not spend $6,500 on a Seiko if you're going to spend the same on any other watch? It seems like the baseline assumption would be that two $6,500 watches would be comparable. The only reason to assume that it would be unwise to spend $6,500 on a Seiko would be if you believed that Seiko made lesser watches or if you placed significant weight on brand recognition. Since all indications are that the Grand Seiko is one of the finest watches in the $5,000-10,000 price range, it seems the onus would be on the skeptic to show that it were a bad idea to spend $6,500 on a Seiko.


That's a fair point, however I consider a watch that too an expensive one, to be investment grade; something that I can pass on to my son one day as an heirloom of horology. Seiko may very well be a work horse with fine engineering (I know because I own them including a GS SBGW001), I continue to struggle with Seiko ever being treated as an heirloom. Unless it comes from Jura Valley it will not be treated as investment grade.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

skin diver said:


> Oh, come on...really??? This world is watered down with too many passive aggressive politically correct balloon-heads already who make me want to VOMIT. This was an interesting discussion that brought out emotion and passion... Sure it went out of bounds with a few Seiko fan-boys going a bit too far here and there but it was still a worthy discussion and very interesting. Let's not lose sight of that.


+1 I have never seen a fan-boy club like Seiko's. Reminded me of the fan-boy lines outside Apple Stores. Although Apple's Marketing and Branding strategy vis-a-vis Seiko is like day and night.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Almost at page 7...


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

No, we are on page 7. God have mercy on our souls.


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## Bronte (Dec 11, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> That's a fair point, however I consider a watch that too an expensive one, to be investment grade; something that I can pass on to my son one day as an heirloom of horology. Seiko may very well be a work horse with fine engineering (I know because I own them including a GS SBGW001), I continue to struggle with Seiko ever being treated as an heirloom. Unless it comes from Jura Valley it will not be treated as investment grade.


Again, I question the baseline assumption that a Grand Seiko would not function well as an heirloom piece. Watches, like most consumer goods, will not work well as financial investments. However, I see no reason to believe that a Grand Seiko would pass down to your son any worse than, say, a Jaeger LeCoultre Master Control (to leave Rolex out of this). The Grand Seiko is not, to the best of my understanding, a "work horse," but is instead a piece of Japanese haute horlogerie. This means its craftsmanship is exquisite, both as a technical matter and in terms of finishing. I think a GS would pass down very well.

If you haven't before, you might find it interesting to read these detailed photographic reviews of various Grand Seiko models: e.g., http://home.watchprosite.com/?show=nblog.post&ti=468091 and http://home.watchprosite.com/show-nblog.post/ti-415221/. You'll notice that many owners of Grand Seiko are also owners of fine Swiss time pieces like JLC.


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## seikomatic (Jul 6, 2006)

I have no children myself and I know a HUGE Seiko-fan-man who has only a daughter but > 200 Seiko of which few dozens of Limited Edition as well, also worries about the disposal of our stocks on the date we go to the heaven.

I said in other forums, some GS owners have changed their mindset and preferred GS to remain unknown and low profile unlike Rolex and therefore, they might burst into giggle when hearing the "statement".


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> +1 I have never seen a fan-boy club like Seiko's. Reminded me of the fan-boy lines outside Apple Stores. Although Apple's Marketing and Branding strategy vis-a-vis Seiko is like day and night.


Im a big Seikofan also. Seiko has a attraction which is hard to explain "some sort of mystique" but Im trying to be objectiv. I love all fine watches. I dont want to be a brandsnob to Seikowatches. As I said Seiko has some power that very few brands has to their fans, its almost like a cult


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## ghjjgbv45 (Jan 5, 2012)

as far as I'm concerned, these high end grand seiko's make a bigger statement than any rolex.

it says you have good taste and don't rely on brand names for your identity.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Bronte said:


> Again, I question the baseline assumption that a Grand Seiko would not function well as an heirloom piece. Watches, like most consumer goods, will not work well as financial investments. However, I see no reason to believe that a Grand Seiko would pass down to your son any worse than, say, a Jaeger LeCoultre Master Control (to leave Rolex out of this). The Grand Seiko is not, to the best of my understanding, a "work horse," but is instead a piece of Japanese haute horlogerie. This means its craftsmanship is exquisite, both as a technical matter and in terms of finishing. I think a GS would pass down very well.
> 
> If you haven't before, you might find it interesting to read these detailed photographic reviews of various Grand Seiko models: e.g., http://home.watchprosite.com/?show=nblog.post&ti=468091 and http://home.watchprosite.com/show-nblog.post/ti-415221/. You'll notice that many owners of Grand Seiko are also owners of fine Swiss time pieces like JLC.


I hear ya, and I just want to clarify that I am not a brand snob and neither am I talking about brand snobbery. Instead I'm talking about heritage that transcends to timelessness. I'll go back to my car analogy;

A modern day Lexus is technologically well advanced, priced in line with its European competitors but it does not have the heritage of a Mercedes, a Rolls or a Bentley. Therefore a Lexus will never become a classic; a collectors item; an heirloom. On the other hand, a 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's 80's Mercedes although technologically less advanced to a modern day Lexus and in some cases even clunky, are cherished all over the world, sought out by collectors, restored by enthusiasts and driven by affectionados even till today. We don't see 25 year old Lexus on the street, but we do ooh and aah about 25 year old Benzes every time we see them on a street corner. Not only that but The Euro classics if maintained will go up in value, defying the depreciation trend for most other car brands.

Classic Patek, Rolex, Gerard, Omega, Breitling and any other Swiss brand that is comparable to a Grand Seiko have the heritage and timelessness (or perceived timelessness) that makes them heirlooms for passing onto generations. Classic swiss timepieces, if they don't go up in value, they will at least retain their value over a long period of time.

So, when someone walks into a watch store with $7000 to spend and offered a Grand Seiko and Gerard Perregaux (just using a different brand than Rolex) to choose from. Their first inclination is to go for the Gerard not the Grand Seiko.

Please keep in mind that we're not talking about what you and I and a handful of other enthusiasts on this forum would do. We're talking about the masses that go out to buy investment grade timepieces.


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

thecustomer said:


> I hear ya, and I just want to clarify that I am not a brand snob and neither am I talking about brand snobbery. Instead I'm talking about heritage that transcends to timelessness. I'll go back to my car analogy;
> 
> A modern day Lexus is technologically well advanced, priced in line with its European competitors but it does not have the heritage of a Mercedes, a Rolls or a Bentley. Therefore a Lexus will never become a classic; a collectors item; an heirloom. On the other hand, a 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's 80's Mercedes although technologically less advanced to a modern day Lexus and in some cases even clunky, are cherished all over the world, sought out by collectors, restored by enthusiasts and driven by affectionados even till today. We don't see 25 year old Lexus on the street, but we do ooh and aah about 25 year old Benzes every time we see them on a street corner. Not only that but The Euro classics if maintained will go up in value, defying the depreciation trend for most other car brands.
> 
> ...


The masses have no idea about GP at all.

I have already posted why your Lexus analogy is flawed and incorrect.

Watches are not a good investment. Unless you are buying handmade, highly limited pieces like A. Lange, Patek, VC, etc their value won't increase substantially. In the short term their value might keep pace with inflation but over the long term there are many ways to increase your investment outside of watches. The lower tier brands like Rolex, Omega et al. make too many watches nowadays. Rolex gets by a bit due to reputation, and other brands are trying to follow suit, but I don't see it happening. The fact that you can lump Breitling in with Omega and Rolex (which Breitling is nowhere near in terms of quality or value) speaks volumes.


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## sdrutledge (Jan 8, 2009)

Well Ren, *I *appreciated your GS when you showed it to me


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## JamesEsq (May 27, 2010)

I've been a big Rolex fan over the years and have several vintage and newer Rolex sport models (1665 Great White, 5513 Gilt, DSSD, etc.). Last week I ventured into the unknown and bought a new SBGE001 like Kingblackbolt's and was amazed by the quality, design, and accuracy (still spot-on). I won't be selling my Rollies, but I'm already on the lookout for my next GS. It's a great time to be a watch enthusiast with the variety of choices available from both Europe and Asia.


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## ky70 (Jun 3, 2009)

kingblackbolt said:


> Almost at page 7...





thecustomer said:


> No, we are on page 7. God have mercy on our souls.


You guys should change the viewable postd per page option in your settings...It's only page 3 for me and I'm enjoying this discussion. Carry on


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## sriswit (Feb 4, 2010)

If you look at the prices of vintage Grand Seikos or the 6159 diver from the 60's (e.g., 5722, 61xx, 45xx, 56xx), you'll be amazed how well these pieces hold their values and how easy to sell them. (I once sold 4 vintage GS and KS, they were all gone in a week while getting close to my asking prices). Again, these are watches without complicated functions. So I would think that they do have heritage, it's just not in the scale of Mercedes but more or less special models of common European Marques (e.g., post-WWII Alfa from the 50's or 60's). These cars are still treasured by collectors of that marque and in many cases car collectors in general.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

geremy said:


> The masses have no idea about GP at all.
> 
> I have already posted why your Lexus analogy is flawed and incorrect.
> 
> Watches are not a good investment. Unless you are buying handmade, highly limited pieces like A. Lange, Patek, VC, etc their value won't increase substantially. In the short term their value might keep pace with inflation but over the long term there are many ways to increase your investment outside of watches. The lower tier brands like Rolex, Omega et al. make too many watches nowadays. Rolex gets by a bit due to reputation, and other brands are trying to follow suit, but I don't see it happening. The fact that you can lump Breitling in with Omega and Rolex (which Breitling is nowhere near in terms of quality or value) speaks volumes.


I think you must be referring to this post:



geremy said:


> The metaphor of Grand Seiko as Lexus is just terrible and inaccurate. Lexus is a mass produced product, designed almost specifically as an interpretation of western luxury. Grand Seikos are far from mass produced (more Lexus made in week than GS makes all year, ime) and designed to appeal to an eastern sense of luxury. They could not be further apart. There is no automobile brand that is synonymous with GS.


First of all, this is not actually an argument; you just made a statement expecting it to be treated as a commandment. Cars and watches are absolutely comparable; they are both tools, their purpose is utilitarian with design preceding function, and people evaluate and buy them with the same basic set of criteria. Read my post below:



thecustomer said:


> To me watches are just like cars offering a fine blend of design and functionality. I apply these 10 criteria when I'm shopping for a car, and its the same 10 criteria for when I'm shopping for a watch:
> Product Design
> Product Reliability (drive train in a car and movement in a watch)
> Product Warranty
> ...


You further strengthened my case for Car and Watch analogy with your investment comments. Yes, "most" watches are not a good investment; neither are "most" cars, but some watches from specific brands are certainly good investments just like certain cars models from certain brands (not including Lexus).

Secondly, there are European car makers such as Rolls and Bentley that make limited quantity highly priced cars, analogous to A Lange, Patek etc., and then there is Rolex and Omega similar to Mercedes that produce some limited quantity extremely high end models like their CL line and also mass production models like their C Class and E Class models. I am grouping Breitling into this category as it would be analogous to the BMW and Audi lineup; Perhaps lesser than Omega and Rolex (no need to go on a tangent and start arguing on this point) but still high-end lineup of models as well as mass production models.

Lexus only follows the mass production approach. They have recently come up with their LFA model with the hope for it to become a HALO model, hence trying to mimic the approach that Mercedes has adopted very successfully for decades.

Seiko is no different, they have always followed a mass production approach eventually starting their GS lineup in the 60's, abandoning it in the 70's and their reviving it again in the late 90's, hence their attempt to mimic the approach of Rolex, Omega and Breitlings of the world. Remember I am not saying that they are not successful, just highlighting their approach.

Finally, "German Engineering" is to automotive industry what "Swiss Made" is to Horological industry. GM now markets their Cadillac high performance line-up as "Born in Detroit and Raised on Nürburgring (Germany)". Lexus launched their LFA on the "Nordschleife" (German) race track; the home of BMW M lineup.

Seiko, can't claim "Swiss Made" but they account for it in their design by using Gothic GS font and the Lion logo prominent on European crests from Medieval Times, to articulate quality for marketing purposes. Read below:

*On Lions and Gothic Fonts*
_The use of a lion for the Grand Seiko seal and a gothic font for the "Grand Seiko" and "GS" branding has always raised some eyebrows. From my reading of the 'literature' it would appear that Seiko's original decision to use these motifs was a response to the 'European threat'. As discussed above, the Grand Seiko idea was developed in order to safeguard Seiko's timekeeping honour, and therefore it does not seem implausible that these traditionally European motifs were selected in order to communicate that Seiko's watches were just as good as any quality European brand._

So all things considered, your "flawed and incorrect" counter argument does not hold any water unless you want to sit here and skin hair.


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

I didn't say you can't compare watches to cars, I said that Lexus is not a good fit for GS, and that in fact no well-known brand is. The reason is not because the companies are dissimilar (though you are equating Seiko to Toyota, and GS to Lexus but you have the habit of leaving off the G and just typing Seiko), but because their respective target audiences and reason for being are completely different. Lexus and it's design language was created FOR the west and to appeal to NON-JAPANESE. GS was created FOR the JAPANESE and only INCIDENTALLY appeals to certain westerners. Even then there is differences inherent to volume of production that Lexus outputs compared to GS.

Maybe there is a minor brand of automobile that can be compared to GS, but Lexus isn't it. Lexus exists for the very reason to convince westerners that Japanese luxury and quality is equal to the Germans. GS exists as a source of pride for Seiko and it's appeal to westerners is ancillary. Lexus as brand came into being in 1989, but the first car wasn't sold in Japan until 2005! Ford's Lincoln brand would be more a more apt comparison, yet still flawed, due to differences in production techniques. 

Your point is well taken about the LFA. It's a very nice car.

BTW, you can apply your list of criteria to any product, it certainly isn't exclusive to cars and watches.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

geremy said:


> BTW, you can apply your list of criteria to any product, it certainly isn't exclusive to cars and watches.


Yes at an academic level, these criteria can be applied to any product. Practically speaking, and for the most part people apply either "*best fit*", "*best of breed*" or "*cheapest*" approach to buying. But when it comes to cars and watches (besides a handful of other good) these criteria are looked at holistically and inclusively under most cases. Please note, that I am deliberately trying to avoid generalizations. Not everything can be painted with a broad brush stroke.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

geremy said:


> I didn't say you can't compare watches to cars, I said that Lexus is not a good fit for GS, and that in fact no well-known brand is. The reason is not because the companies are dissimilar (though you are equating Seiko to Toyota, and GS to Lexus but you have the habit of leaving off the G and just typing Seiko), but because their respective target audiences and reason for being are completely different. Lexus and it's design language was created FOR the west and to appeal to NON-JAPANESE. GS was created FOR the JAPANESE and only INCIDENTALLY appeals to certain westerners. Even then there is differences inherent to volume of production that Lexus outputs compared to GS.
> 
> Maybe there is a minor brand of automobile that can be compared to GS, but Lexus isn't it. Lexus exists for the very reason to convince westerners that Japanese luxury and quality is equal to the Germans. GS exists as a source of pride for Seiko and it's appeal to westerners is ancillary. Lexus as brand came into being in 1989, but the first car wasn't sold in Japan until 2005! Ford's Lincoln brand would be more a more apt comparison, yet still flawed, due to differences in production techniques.
> 
> Your point is well taken about the LFA. It's a very nice car.


You are using, "Branding", "Marketing", "Production", and "Product Placement" strategies interchangeably. When it comes to Branding, Lexus is to Toyota what Grand Seiko is to Seiko. I was using Lexus simply as an example; use any scaled up brand from another car manufacturer that you like.

Now lets talk Marketing: As for marketing to Japanese vs the West, Seiko will obviously launch the high-end GS lineup in a market where they are expected to create most traction, and where they can leverage the pride and heritage of their culture and traditions to the max to appeal to the audience; not in the west where they have a long history, tradition and marketing strategy of being a watchmaker of affordable products targeting the masses.

As for production and product placement: GS is a young brand; remember after the initial marketing failure, it was relaunched only back in 1998. In watch business like any other high priced luxury goods, rarity and exclusivity drives a significant component of the pricing strategy. GS will always be limited no doubt, and keeping it restricted to a small market is squarely in line with that marketing strategy. So it will be a while before Seiko can effectively start looking west-ward again for their GS brand.


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## pogiguy (Dec 31, 2010)

Thecustomer,

I am curious to know-- what were the reasons for getting your Grand Seiko. In your estimation, if it's not "Investment Grade", then there were other valid reasons for you to pick it up vs. the other choices in the general price range.

Thanks.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

pogiguy said:


> Thecustomer,
> 
> I am curious to know-- what were the reasons for getting your Grand Seiko. In your estimation, if it's not "Investment Grade", then there were other valid reasons for you to pick it up vs. the other choices in the general price range.
> 
> Thanks.


I bought it because I know its investment grade. Perhaps you guys think I don't like Grand Seiko or I am arguing against it. That's not true; I absolutely love it. Also, not only do I own a GS, I have a few very nice Seikos, several Swiss brands and a few micro/boutique brands as well and I love all of them. I am an enthusiast just like everyone else on this forum.

All I am debating is the rationale behind "it's just a Seiko" perception, and besides me a few others agree that its the marketing and branding strategy of Seiko that is the culprit.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Guys, "Grand Seiko" is a great watch not a great brand. Lexus was initially market as "Toyota Lexus"; It evolved into a brand "Lexus" later on. Hyundai has launched Genesis as "Hyundai Genesis"; the Genesis is "still just a Hyundai". It must need to evolve as a Luxury brand to appeal to the audience that buys Luxury; Hyundai does not appeal to that audience. It may be a matter of great pride for Koreans but not elsewhere.

Similarly, Seiko with its "Grand Seiko" line must evolve it as a separate brand, not piggy back it on the legacy that is sub-optimal for quality and innovation that lives under "Grand Seiko".


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> I think you must be referring to this post:
> 
> Lexus only follows the mass production approach. They have recently come up with their LFA model with the hope for it to become a HALO model, hence trying to mimic the approach that Mercedes has adopted very successfully for decades.
> 
> ...


First of all, Seiko _DOES_ make exclusive products such as the limited edition AMG mercedes and exclusive swiss watches. It's called the Credor, and they go for upwards of $500,000. SO that part of your argument is destroyed.

Second, I don't think Seiko tries to create an image that is 'swiss' or 'european.' Every official Seiko website has a link to "the Seiko story" that proudly accounts for their Japanese heritage and innovations.

Lastly, unlike the comparison between Lexus and German car companies, the Seiko watch company has been around longer than most of its Swiss counterparts. Thus, it's not "trying" to imitate an image of Swiss or European horology....it has a damn impressive Japanese heritage of its own!...and no they don't try to hide it!


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> First of all, Seiko _DOES_ make exclusive products such as the limited edition AMG mercedes and exclusive swiss watches. It's called the Credor, and they go for upwards of $500,000. SO that part of your argument is destroyed.


Yes, they indeed produce highly exclusive timepieces. No argument there.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> Second, I don't think Seiko tries to create an image that is 'swiss' or 'european.' Every official Seiko website has a link to "the Seiko story" that proudly accounts for their Japanese heritage and innovations.


They cannot disassociate themselves from their Heritage. They are Japanese and that is a fact. I am actually glad that they flaunt it proudly and don't try to be something that they are not; case in point Invictas of the watch world.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> Lastly, unlike the comparison between Lexus and German car companies, the Seiko watch company has been around longer than most of its Swiss counterparts. Thus, it's not "trying" to imitate an image of Swiss or European horology....it has a damn impressive Japanese heritage of its own!...and no they don't try to hide it!


Yes agree that they have an impressive Japanese Heritage but the rest is not exactly true; The first watches produced under the Seiko brand appeared in 1924. Watches have been produced in Jura Valley Switzerland since the 17th century.

Seiko tried to compete with the Swiss in mechanical watch business but struggled to compete. They innovated (rightly so) with quartz movement that virtually decimated the Swiss Horology industry. Swiss in return retaliated with their own Quart brand called "Swatch" and not only did it bring back the Swiss watch industry to be bigger better and stronger, they actually beat Seiko at their own game. Swatch sells more quartz watches than anyone else on the plant including Seiko. Seiko has only started to diversify itself since 1998 in the footsteps of Swiss horology and probably specifically with "Swatch Group" being the incumbent.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Yes agree that they have an impressive Japanese Heritage but the rest is not exactly true; The first watches produced under the Seiko brand appeared in 1924. Watches have been produced in Jura Valley Switzerland since the 17th century.
> 
> Seiko tried to compete with the Swiss in mechanical watch business but struggled to compete. They innovated (rightly so) with quartz movement that virtually decimated the Swiss Horology industry. Swiss in


Sure, the Swiss have been making watches since the 17th century, but how many of those companies still exist?

And sure, Seiko only started selling watches under the brand "Seiko" from 1929, but that doesn't mean anything. The current president of Seiko is Shinji Hattori, the direct descendent of Kintaro Hattori, who founded the watch company in 1881 that eventually changed its name to Seiko.

Most of the big Swiss watch companies today were bought out by investors! In contrast to Seiko, the only thing these companies have in common with their former company is their name!

And ahhhh the wonderful Swatch Group. They bought out a bunch of what were once great, independent watch companies and started fitting them with off the shelf ETA movements and tripled the prices.

If you ask me, Seiko has more legitimate claims to its heritage than most of the big Swiss companies.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> And ahhhh the wonderful Swatch Group. They bought out a bunch of what were once great, independent watch companies and started fitting them with off the shelf ETA movements and tripled the prices.


You continue to argue on emotions rather than facts. Just so you know, The Swatch Group owns ETA SA and therefore original in-house equipment manufacturer of ETA movement; they're not off the shelf.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> Most of the big Swiss watch companies today were bought out by investors! In contrast to Seiko, the only thing these companies have in common with their former company is their name!


Not sure what your point is.

Diversified businesses are not uncommon in today's marketplace. In order to command a dominant market share, companies must generate some competitive advantage.

This is precisely what The Swatch Group AS WELL AS Seiko Holding Corporation have done through related diversification and corporate restructuring. Seiko group companies include:

Seiko Clock Inc.
Seiko Precision Inc.
Seiko Optical Products Co., LTD
Seiko Sports Life Co., LTD
Wako Co., LTD
Seiko Time System Inc.
Seiko Instruments Inc.
Seiko Epson Corp.

Moreover, a business within a business. Seiko Epson Corp. owns a majority stake in Orient watches but allows them to operate as if a stand-alone company.

Now, its just that the Swatch Brands are more well know and better recognized around the world than Seiko Brands. And that has exactly been my point from the get-go.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Not sure what your point is.
> 
> Diversified businesses are not uncommon in today's marketplace. In order to command a dominant market share, companies must generate some competitive advantage.
> 
> ...


There is difference between "diversified business" and having a company bought out by investors that have nothing to do with the original company.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> There is difference between "diversified business" and having a company bought out by investors that have nothing to do with the original company.


No not really; in today's day and age, it is almost preferred to acquire a brand than to try to grow one organically. Case in point Orient watches acquisition (majority share) by Seiko.

As for evolution, every brand (Swiss or otherwise) regardless of who owns the book of business, must evolve with times. It may not be evolving the way you want it, but nevertheless it is evolving.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> You continue to argue on emotions rather than facts. Just so you know, The Swatch Group owns ETA SA and therefore original in-house equipment manufacturer of ETA movement; they're not off the shelf.


You're right, the Swatch group does own ETA and therefore, every ETA movement inside of a Swatch Group watch is _technically_ "in-house." But in the world of horology, that does not really count as being "in-house." A Bell & Ross watch can have the same movement as a Hamilton, and the Hamilton can have the same movement that are used in Chinese-made replica watches. I'm sorry, but in my definition, a watch with a standard ETA movement is not my idea of "in-house" ... Even if the mother company owns the rights to the movement.

The fact is, the watch companies within the Swatch Group used to make their own movements! That's how they _became_ great names in the watch industry. But after they were bought out, the very _essence_ of what made them great - their own movements and manufacturing - was taken away. The thing that really set one swiss watch company from the other was their "in-house" movements.

Now (and I'm not referring to all Swiss watches), the only thing that really separates many Swiss brands (especially the Swatch Group) is the name on the watch and the different marketing images that are attached to them.


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## hiro1963 (Feb 4, 2008)

thecustomer said:


> Seiko tried to compete with the Swiss in mechanical watch business but struggled to compete.


That's unfortunate. That's not because Seiko movements are inferior to Swiss movements. In fact, Seiko movements dominated from the top to 7th place in the mechanical watch movement division at 1968 Geneva Observatory competition.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> You're right, the Swatch group does own ETA and therefore, every ETA movement inside of a Swatch Group watch is _technically_ "in-house." But in the world of horology, that does not really count as being "in-house." A Bell & Ross watch can have the same movement as a Hamilton, and the Hamilton can have the same movement that are used in Chinese-made replica watches. I'm sorry, but in my definition, a watch with a standard ETA movement is not my idea of "in-house" ... Even if the mother company owns the rights to the movement.
> 
> The fact is, the watch companies within the Swatch Group used to make their own movements! That's how they _became_ great names in the watch industry. But after they were bought out, the very _essence_ of what made them great - their own movements and manufacturing - was taken away. The thing that really set one swiss watch company from the other was their "in-house" movements.
> 
> Now (and I'm not referring to all Swiss watches), the only thing that really separates many Swiss brands (especially the Swatch Group) is the name on the watch and the different marketing images that are attached to them.


Now I have no idea what we're discussing here. The original PO started with a "brand image" issue of Seiko and after 8 pages of back and forth, we're discussing Japanese pride, ancestral lineage of Shinji Hattori, and how the Swatch Group is the evil empire. Really!!!???

The topic is still "Brand image issue with Seiko" outside of Japan and how it impacts their premier watch lines. Its not a black mark on Japanese Heritage, or a challenge to the innovations from the house of Seiko or questioning the quality of craftsmanship that goes into GS. It is simply an issue of Branding and Marketing Strategy of Seiko.

If Seiko cannot succeed in convincing public about the superiority of Grand Seiko then its a Marketing failure on their part.

And if Swatch Group can stick the same ETA movement (as you claim) into all their brands and still manages to convince the general public that they are all different then its a Marketing Success for Swatch Group, and all power to them to be able to pull it off.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

hiro1963 said:


> That's unfortunate. That's not because Seiko movements are inferior to Swiss movements. In fact, Seiko movements dominated from the top to 7th place in the mechanical watch movement division at 1968 Geneva Observatory competition.


Yes, despite their technical prowess and superiority of movements, they somehow cannot shed the "oh its just a Seiko" image. What gives?

And please lets not restart "its not Seiko silly its the public who is dumb enough to go out and buy that crazy overrated Swiss stuff "


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

hiro1963 said:


> That's unfortunate. That's not because Seiko movements are inferior to Swiss movements. In fact, Seiko movements dominated from the top to 7th place in the mechanical watch movement division at 1968 Geneva Observatory competition.


That's a big reason why the swiss changed the COSC to only allow swiss made watches to be certified. Seiko went in there and cleaned house at the Observatory Concours, that pissed 'em off. Actually Seiko obtained 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th, and 12th in the 1967 Concours and in 1968 placed 2nd and 3rd. The next year the Concours was stopped by the swiss........


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Now I have no idea what we're discussing here. The original PO started with a "brand image" issue of Seiko and after 8 pages of back and forth, we're discussing Japanese pride, ancestral lineage of Shinji Hattori, and how the Swatch Group is the evil empire. Really!!!???
> 
> The topic is still "Brand image issue with Seiko" outside of Japan and how it impacts their premier watch lines. Its not a black mark on Japanese Heritage, or a challenge to the innovations from the house of Seiko or questioning the quality of craftsmanship that goes into GS. It is simply an issue of Branding and Marketing Strategy of Seiko.
> 
> ...


Yes, we are discussing all of this because _the thread is a debate about why Seiko does/or does not deserve its reputation as a "medicore" watch company from the general public_.

However, everyone knows that Seiko's reputation to the general public is only average and incomparable to the Swiss. Everyone knows that Seiko doesn't have good marketing. Everyone knows that the majority of watches that Seiko sells are cheap quartz watches.

The above points, which I think are hardly debatable, are being constantly repeated and that doesn't get us anywhere. Therefore, for the sake of a debate that does not lead to a dead end, we should talk about other things, like Seiko's heritage and innovations vis-a-vis Swiss watch companies.


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## rsr911 (Apr 6, 2006)

I am a huge Grand Seiko and Seiko fan. 
I find I am drawn to Grand Seiko because it is VERY high quality. I don't like following the crowd.
I prefer having something that is far more rare and of equal if not higher quality than the general swiss brands we all know.
my .02
-O


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

One of the biggest reasons for lack of recognition and brand respect from the general watch buying population is that GS has been kept in the JDM for a long time. It is just now being 'allowed' by Seiko to be sold by a select few US dealers.

They just don't and can't flood the world market with the GS, because they are labor intensive to produce and are held to very high standards by Seiko. Probably the way Rolex was a long time ago, but they are now mass produced by robotic assembly lines. Their name recognition is carrying them for now and people still think they are produced by hand by master watchmakers that care. It seems that Seiko really doesn't care that much about marketing to the GS to the world.

I own a Rolex and it cost more than my GS, but it is not nearly the watch that my GS is, in my opinion as a current owner of both brands.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

No make that 8?!



thecustomer said:


> No, we are on page 7. God have mercy on our souls.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

I think we've beaten this horse to death.


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## Time Exposure (Aug 13, 2010)

thecustomer said:


> I think we've beaten this horse to death.


Oh, heavens no! That horse WAS ALREADY DEAD!


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## kekes (Jan 4, 2012)

perfect thread for my first post, firstly hello all.

i own Panerai's, a rolex daytona, a blancpain fifty fathoms, magrettes and a handful of seiko 6309 7040's. each are awesome and have a special meaning to me, and at the moment i am hooked on the turtles and modding them so they become my own creations.

true appreciation comes from those who know watches, not those who wear them for the sake of it or prestige of it.


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## nurt (Oct 1, 2011)

I spoke to a coworker of mine about watches and how I liked Grand Seiko. His response was to tap his $100 Seiko on his wrist and said "Seiko isn't high end". It's that simple. It's not a luxury brand. If BMW made a $15k car it'll hurt their image as well. The opposite to Seiko is Omega. They sell $3k watches with ETA movements, owned by a giant conglomerate, but because their minimum prices are high they're considered high end. Even if Seiko stops producing watches below $1k tomorrow they still won't be considered high end since their low end models have tarnished their name beyond repair. 

I still buy Grand Seiko though.


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## catlike (Aug 7, 2009)

I went to the Rolex AD today, to take a look at this and that. I got in to a long conversation with a guy there and whilst I didn't necessarily agree with everything he said, it was apparent that he had a long history with horology, was very knowledgeable about watches in general and _very_ passionate about Rolex and the quality of their movements. Of course I put forward that it is all very well to make a great watch, but if it looks like crap, I aint gonna buy it :-d

I was wearing my Perrelet and it was cool to hear him talk about the company and their history. I should point out that this was not a Perrelet dealer.

He surprised me with his opinion of the latest IWC offerings, he was disappointed with what they were doing with movements and the use of what he considers are definite Chinese parts. (I wouldn't know)

But the biggest shock was his opinion that *"the best watch movement in the world is the Seiko spring drive"* and that *"there are a large number of watch critics around the world that think this and even wear them, but will not necessarily admit it publicly." *I wasn't shocked by the opinion, I was shocked that he actually told me! I have always regarded my Grand Seiko spring drive GMT as something special and it is nice to hear something like this, especially when I hadn't even told him that I owned one.

So, I guess my Grand Seiko is just another Seiko - the incredible company that invented the Spring Drive movement. ;-)


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

nurt said:


> I spoke to a coworker of mine about watches and how I liked Grand Seiko. His response was to tap his $100 Seiko on his wrist and said "Seiko isn't high end".


And he fits neatly into the masses of watch-ignorant mall shoppers. What is carried at the mall is all there is out there. He goes to Zales at the mall and sees no Seiko over $500 and thinks that's all they make. If they do make anything more, like the 'Grand' Seiko your told fairy tales of, then it obviously has the same basic movement and is just gold plated a little more. He sees the Movado Fiero priced at $5k in the next cabinet and says 'now that is a finely made swiss watch'. His opinion carries little weight because he simply doesn't know any better. And Zales thanks God for folks like him.


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## sl7vk (Mar 12, 2010)

thecustomer said:


> Now I have no idea what we're discussing here..... (snip)


It seems this is a condition you've suffered from since this thread began.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks guys it's good to have a few other opinions besides 2 or 3 people responding to each on some pretty exotic topics... Thank you for simply discussing your experiences with people and their reactions to your Seiko... Good or bad. Let the thread continue... Page 12...15?


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

sl7vk said:


> It seems this is a condition you've suffered from since this thread began.


WTF!! What are you; member of the Japanese Yakuza??!!









Seem you're one of those who's out to Bash anything Swiss:



sl7vk said:


> Thanks for this line of reasoning.... I'm now going to jump onto helicopteruseek and educate the forumers there on how the Swiss also invented the helicopter. I have the drawings to prove it ... (snip)


Or how about:



sl7vk said:


> I'm a big Victorinox Swiss Army fan...But above Seiko? ... snip


And what is really pathetic about you is how you've never owned any of the Swiss brands that you go around bashing all day long:



sl7vk said:


> I think Omega's are fine. The more I've handled them the more I appreciate JDM Japanese watches. The thing I don't get, is why Omega is so loved around here,... (snip)


*"the more I've handled them..."* Really!!! Its like saying, I can't stand a Ferarri; the more I stand next to it and get my picture taken the more I appreciate the Kia that I own. Get over yourself.

Or how about some of these posts from you:



sl7vk said:


> I think this is a pretty condescending take on things. I'm not a fan of Breitling either, so maybe there are just people out there with different tastes than you... (snip)





sl7vk said:


> I can imagine it.... In fact, I'm not a fan of them AT ALL. Dump the Panerai... this one is easy... (snip)





sl7vk said:


> Not a huge fan of Doxvicta... I mean Invoxa... I mean Doxa..... but that one is up to you. Love seeing 2 Seikos on that list... (snip)





sl7vk said:


> Agreed... Panerai really could do better with their dials... Oh wait... did you say Grand Seiko? Never mind... I couldn't agree with you less. (snip)


But my all time favorite is how you don't even own a freaking Grand Seiko but you have all these opinions on the watch:



sl7vk said:


> Appreciate the GS brochure you sent me! Those watches are on my desk, and as soon as I make VP, I'm going to buy a GS from you!


Seems you're basing all your opinions on your Wikipedia reading, watch brochures and by *"handling these watches"* at your local AD.

Your entire watch collection seems to be Seiko, Orient and Hamilton?? I'm actually surprised about the Hami, nevertheless, that collection is probably worth $549 on a good day and consists of pre-owned watches bought for <$200 a-pop, but you're somehow an expert on Breitlings, Panerai, Doxa, Omegas & Grand Seikos. *Get over yourself and shut it!!*


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

^ this is arguing on emotions rather than facts...


thecustomer said:


> You continue to argue on emotions rather than facts...


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> ^ this is arguing on emotions rather than facts...


First of all not arguing anything.

Secondly, no emotions involved; just stating "quoted facts", Thank you very much!


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> First of all not arguing anything.
> 
> Secondly, no emotions involved; just stating "quoted facts", Thank you very much!


You are clearly arguing that he has no right to bash Swiss watches.

This is based on your guesstimation of his watch collection, its value, and his involvement in the yakuza....lol


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> You are clearly arguing that he has no right to bash Swiss watches.
> 
> This is based on your guesstimation of his watch collection, its value, and his involvement in the yakuza....lol


Again not arguing; just quoting his own posts, and yes based on his posted comments, perhaps going through some deductive reasoning to pass my judgement. However, its still better than the one liner judgments he comes up from the left field. His bashing of anything but Seiko is not objective, and I usually prefer not to unnecessarily indulge in arguments of that sort.

Oh and I find my comment about his membership in Yakuza pretty funny. It's quite fitting, don't you think?


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

I think this thread has going on the wrong direction. I am a big Seikofan but not a fanboy. I can appriciate all fine watches. That is correct that Grand Seiko is one of the best in that pricerange but all brands has their own models which is better than the other brands models. Its about good watches, not which watchbrand is best or worse.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

80talisten said:


> I think this thread has going on the wrong direction. I am a big Seikofan but not a fanboy. I can appriciate all fine watches. That is correct that Grand Seiko is one of the best in that pricerange but all brands has their own models which is better than the other brands models. Its about good watches, not which watchbrand is best or worse.


+1 ha le lu jah brother!


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, SOMEONE sure has his panties in a twist.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

gerrylb said:


> Wow, SOMEONE sure has his panties in a twist.


No kidding! Lots of panties jumbled up in a spring drive.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Didn't wear my GS for a couple days as I picked up a couple new pieces but damn I missed! So back on today


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## nurt (Oct 1, 2011)

cold_beer839 said:


> And he fits neatly into the masses of watch-ignorant mall shoppers. What is carried at the mall is all there is out there. He goes to Zales at the mall and sees no Seiko over $500 and thinks that's all they make. If they do make anything more, like the 'Grand' Seiko your told fairy tales of, then it obviously has the same basic movement and is just gold plated a little more. He sees the Movado Fiero priced at $5k in the next cabinet and says 'now that is a finely made swiss watch'. His opinion carries little weight because he simply doesn't know any better. And Zales thanks God for folks like him.


It's true, although I fit into that category not long ago! I also had low opinions on Seiko till my dad told me to look at them. Those cheap Seikos available at Zales as you point out is the reason people say "it's just a Seiko" when they see a GS. Although I do exploit this and when people ask me how much my Grand Seiko cost I say "dude, it's just a Seiko, not a lot"


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

thecustomer said:


> No kidding! Lots of panties jumbled up in a spring drive.


Ummm. . . oh nevermind.


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## dogman (Nov 25, 2011)

nurt said:


> I spoke to a coworker of mine about watches and how I liked Grand Seiko. His response was to tap his $100 Seiko on his wrist and said "Seiko isn't high end". It's that simple. It's not a luxury brand. If BMW made a $15k car it'll hurt their image as well. The opposite to Seiko is Omega. They sell $3k watches with ETA movements, owned by a giant conglomerate, but because their minimum prices are high they're considered high end. Even if Seiko stops producing watches below $1k tomorrow they still won't be considered high end since their low end models have tarnished their name beyond repair.
> 
> I still buy Grand Seiko though.


First off, love your watch.

I wonder how the watch buyers of the world would take to this watch if it was sold under a new name?

Like Toyota has done with Lexus.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

dogman said:


> First off, love your watch.
> 
> I wonder how the watch buyers of the world would take to this watch if it was sold under a new name?
> 
> Like Toyota has done with Lexus.


Hmm well seiko does have Credor.

Personally I think the Credor brand/logo sounds and looks incredible! Seiko should make their GS line a part of Credor.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

dogman said:


> First off, love your watch.
> 
> I wonder how the watch buyers of the world would take to this watch if it was sold under a new name?
> 
> Like Toyota has done with Lexus.


Thats exactly what Seiko is trying to do with the "Credor" brand. Its essentially the Grand Seiko inside. Check out their commercial:






The idea was to market GS under a new Luxury name to the western markets, however not sure how much brand recognition Seiko has managed. It's certainly not at the same success level as Lexus has been for Toyota.


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## hiro1963 (Feb 4, 2008)

canteaus said:


> Hmm well seiko does have Credor.
> 
> Personally I think the Credor brand/logo sounds and looks incredible! Seiko should make their GS line a part of Credor.


Seiko Credor Node Spring Drive Eichi

Pics borrowed from SJX.




























Watches by SJX: One of the finest finished watches in the world - a Seiko


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

I recall seeing those pics when he Posted them... So sublime, classy and understated I think this epitomizes the Credor line... Just stunning inside and out. Thanks for posting these again  no arguments from anyone I hope?



hiro1963 said:


> Seiko Credor Node Spring Drive Eichi
> 
> Pics borrowed from SJX.
> 
> ...


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

kingblackbolt said:


> I recall seeing those pics when he Posted them... So sublime, classy and understated I think this epitomizes the Credor line... Just stunning inside and out. Thanks for posting these again  no arguments from anyone I hope?


Beautiful watch!!! but $75,000?? Really!? Can they skip spending extra effort on over polishing the innards and make the price..... say $65,000?

Please don't beat me up on this comment. Just wondering ok.


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

nice watch but I could have got you a Timex for not nearly the cost, Just kidding, I thinks Seiko's are very understated and well worth the cost


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Here's the reality. If Patek Philippe made a $2000 watch, people would stand in lines to buy one (hell, they might put apple fan club to shame). But if Seiko makes a $75,000 watch, people raise their eyebrows.

What did we learn?


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## serdal23 (May 15, 2011)

Thanks for starting this informative thread, Kingblackbolt. It is good to see some comparisons within Seiko timepieces as well as between Seiko and other brands. 

Here is my experience without any comment:

I had a Rolex Sub (I still have the GMT II). I sold the Sub to be able to buy a SBGE009 GS SD. BUT I was still way behind funds wise. I am still trying my very best to be able to raise enough funds to get that one. I am still enjoying the GMT II. I love GMT function because I need to make and receive calls all over the world from time to time, and it is a very useful feature to have.

I had owned several Seiko Divers such as SKX173 military modded (The accuracy: It lost 1 second in 5 weeks!), another mod PMMM based on SKX007J (The accuracy: + 0.25 second a day!), and Quartz Diver SBCM023 (The accuracy: + 0.9 second a year!!!), Vintage 7548-700B Pepsi (The accuracy: +1 second a month!). These accuracy figures are tested, observed by wearing actually on my wrist for prolonged times by myself. Accuracy is my weakest and breaking point. And I wear my watches 24 / 7; either quartz or auto to be able to get the maximum accuracy. I have got brutal accuracies with my Seiko timepieces, and it makes me very proud of this fantastic brand.

When I need any kind of service, I know that I won't get ripped off! I took the military modded SKX173 to my Japanese watchmaker, and he de-magnetised for me for free, then I got that incredible -1 seconds / 5 weeks accuracy. I don't think with any model Seiko, I will need a service for a very long time unless I drop the watch from the 5th floor balcony. 

For me, Seiko brand is an icon. It is me, and everybody has different point of view and likes and dislikes. It is very normal. And for me, (Seiko brand and) Seiko watches are the best (Brand and) watches in the world; value for the price wise, durability wise, reliability wise, very easy to find and very affordable price of the spare parts wise, moddable wise, and accuracy wise.

I owned Omega Seamaster Bond, then purchased another Seamaster GMT Bond. They are both gone to very good homes. They were also great watches and enjoyed them well. 

I also own Panerai power reserve. I like this watch a lot, too. All of the brands' watches are there for us to enjoy, and we do. 

But for me, I get very different taste, feeling, and joy when I see a Seiko dial on my wrist each time I am looking at my wrist. I know that my Seiko watch(es) will not stop all of a sudden, and "IF" I need any service or repair I know that I will not spend a fortune. 

Sometimes we buy very expensive watches, either Japanese or Swiss or German or Chinese made, it doesn't matter. After paying a considerable amount of money, we enjoy our beloved watches. But when some repairs or even simple servicing needed, paying excessive amount of money makes me scratch my head.

I had asked how much really it costs to produce an expensive brand watch in this WUS site in the regarding sub-forum. I barely escaped of being lynched! I am not kidding. I had thought that we had right to question and compare the watches that we pay to buy. I was wrong, my mistake. 

In short, enjoy your beautiful timepieces in the best of health. And thanks again Kingblackbolt for this awesome thread.

Very Best Regards . . .

Capt. Serdal


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## triplekia (Dec 11, 2010)

thecustomer said:


> Here's the reality. If Patek Philippe made a $2000 watch, people would stand in lines to buy one (hell, they might put apple fan club to shame). But if Seiko makes a $75,000 watch, people raise their eyebrows.
> 
> What did we learn?


That Seiko is probably using unobtainium as the new battery source?


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

Excellent perspective however....

Lets say that a watch run at +/- 1 sec/day. After 1 year, it will run at +/- 6 minutes of inaccuracy. Most respectable brands including Seiko run well within +/- 1 sec/week. That means that after 1 year, these watches will be off by 52 seconds; negligible by many human standards.

Keeping accurate time within a defined standard is the lowest common denominator for all watch brands. Most watch buyers are not as meticulous as to worry about accuracy of timekeeping in microseconds. It is understood that a watch will do its job within reason.

*The point that I am trying to make yet again is that accuracy of timekeeping has a negligible impact on "Brand Perception". 
*
As for repair costs, most watches come with a 1 or 2 year warranty and they typically do not require warranty service within that time frame. if a service is desired after the warranty period and especially if the watch is based on an ETA, Miyota or Sii movements, any independent respectable watch shop will be able to service it at a reasonable price and without any issues.

It is when you have rare movement or a vintage timepiece that may have hard to find components where the cost of repair or service may be high, but then you should expect to pay a premium for service just to maintain that rare watch.



serdal23 said:


> Thanks for starting this informative thread, Kingblackbolt. It is good to see some comparisons within Seiko timepieces as well as between Seiko and other brands.
> 
> Here is my experience without any comment:
> 
> ...


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## nurt (Oct 1, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Here's the reality. If Patek Philippe made a $2000 watch, people would stand in lines to buy one (hell, they might put apple fan club to shame). But if Seiko makes a $75,000 watch, people raise their eyebrows.
> 
> What did we learn?


You like to make up situations that'll never happen and assert the result of said made up situation? I don't get the point of it. A $2k Patek Philippe? Apple fan clubs? This thread has gone into a weird direction.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> *The point that I am trying to make yet again is that accuracy of timekeeping has a negligible impact on "Brand Perception".
> *


I agree with you 50%.

Technically, to us WIS, we know that in reality, a watch company with a "good" brand perception says little or nothing about the accuracy of their watches.

However the problem is,* the general public (or non-WIS) does associate a "better" brand with better accuracy*.

I know you like car analogies so here we go:

Let's say we have a standard, entry-level Porsche Boxster and a full-spec Hyundai Genesis Coup. The general public (or non-car people) will associate the Porsche as the faster car because the Porsche has the brand perception of a high-performance sports car.

In the same sense, you cannot deny that the general public's favorable brand perception of SWISS watches are often associated with the assumption that they are also higher performance (more accurate) watches.


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## bedlam (Jul 1, 2009)

thecustomer said:


> The bottom line is: In the automotive industry: Germany's image is "Superior Engineering"


Well, except for Mercedes. Who have had awful build quality over the last decade.

Mercedes and Rolex are a great comparison. Both are over-priced and mostly boring machines favoured by the rich and the retired.

Clearly, I am not a fan of either. That said, while Seiko doesn't really ring my bell either, they are one of the few watch makers who keep pushing the envelope.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

nurt said:


> You like to make up situations that'll never happen and assert the result of said made up situation? I don't get the point of it. A $2k Patek Philippe? Apple fan clubs? This thread has gone into a weird direction.


The intent of my exaggeration is to highlight exactly that; exaggeration!! $75,000 Credor Eichi and $125,000 Credor Sonnerie made by Seiko are "Brand exaggerations". It only demonstrates what Seiko can accomplish technologically. Similarly, Patek can make <$5000 watches no doubt and that in itself would be a brand exaggeration.

Since I enjoy my car analogies, other examples of brand exaggerations would be Hyundai Genesis (Affordable car brand making a Luxury car), Hyundai Equuos (even more luxurious affordable car??), VW Phaeton (a fuel efficient car maker making a V8 Luxury sedan??), Lexus LFA (sedated family luxury car maker making a super sports car??),

Some brand exaggerations become an outright oxymoron; case in point Mercedes Benz's Smart Car or the Aston Martin's Cygnet (see picture below: super sports car maker making a compact hatchback??):









The point is not what these companies can accomplish technologically, but rather what they can accomplish from a brand marketability standpoint. It is much more easier (not failure proof, just easier) for a more exclusive brand to derive a scaled down product line and make it marketable and profitable, versus a less exclusive brand to make a high-end product like and making it profitable. *Get it? We're still only trying to rationalize the title of this thread, not the technological superiority of one horologist over another.

*


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> I agree with you 50%.
> 
> Technically, to us WIS, we know that in reality, a watch company with a "good" brand perception says little or nothing about the accuracy of their watches.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I must disagree. No watch buyer, whether general public or a WIS buys only based on a single criteria; "accuracy" and neither do people approach watch purchases based on broad assumptions such as "Swiss watches by virtue of being Swiss are less accurate and Japanese Watches by virtue of being Japanese are more accurate". Design, look on the wrist, features, are more prevalent criteria for most watch buyers. Accuracy is a given; it is assumed that a watch will "do its job". Its true because the counter argument will not be possible. No one can sell a watch that will not keep reasonably accurate time.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

bedlam said:


> Well, except for Mercedes. Who have had awful build quality over the last decade.
> 
> Mercedes and Rolex are a great comparison. Both are over-priced and mostly boring machines favoured by the rich and the retired.
> 
> Clearly, I am not a fan of either. That said, while Seiko doesn't really ring my bell either, they are one of the few watch makers who keep pushing the envelope.


Yet people continue to buy same or more quantities of Mercedes and Rolexes and at constantly increasing price points. What gives?

Mercedes and Rolex continue to ride the wave of their "BRAND IMAGE"!!!!

Similarly Seiko can continue to push the envelop and build Grand Seiko's all day long but will not be able to avoid someone saying: "Its Just a Seiko". Why?; because they continue to ride the wave of their "BRAND IMAGE".


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## videogameland (Oct 24, 2011)

:-d Here's some "BRAND IMAGE" for ya. :-d 

|>Seiko (17,500rpm), then theres Non-Seiko performance:think:


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> My question is; what is the rationale for spending upwards of $6,500 on a Seiko. Please don't jump on my throat for this comment. I am just trying to understand. I love Seiko and use the SNAE29P1 as my primary go-to watch, but if I were to spend $6,500 on a watch. Seiko won't be the first watch that will come to my mind.


But yet....



thecustomer said:


> I know because I own them including a GS SBGW001


Wonder if we could see a picture of your GS with your user name written on a piece of paper beside it?


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> Sorry but I must disagree. No watch buyer, whether general public or a WIS buys only based on a single criteria; "accuracy" and neither do people approach watch purchases based on broad assumptions such as "Swiss watches by virtue of being Swiss are less accurate and Japanese Watches by virtue of being Japanese are more accurate". Design, look on the wrist, features, are more prevalent criteria for most watch buyers. Accuracy is a given; it is assumed that a watch will "do its job". Its true because the counter argument will not be possible. No one can sell a watch that will not keep reasonably accurate time.


You're putting words in my mouth.

I never said that the general public or WIS buys a watch "based on a single criteria."

But, when members of the general public pay thousands of dollars for a watch, I don't think they expect "reasonable good time." I think they expect nothing short of "high performance (highly accurate)."

We WIS know that the more you pay does not = better accuracy. But the general public probably does assume this to some extent.

Let's say we sent out a survey to a random pool of 10,000 members of the general public and asked: "which of the following watch brands would you choose if you wanted a high-performance (very accurate) watch:"

1) Seiko (Japan)
2) Timex (China)
3) Rolex (Swiss)
4) Omega (Swiss)

Are you telling me the majority of the people aren't going to choose either Rolex or Omega. Obviously, we WIS know that the answer is probably 2) Timex because it's more likely to be a quartz watch.

If such criteria like: "design" "features" and "look on the wrist" was really more of an important criteria for watch buyers, there wouldn't be such a brand perception problem with SWISS watches vs. other watches. Everyone knows that you don't have to pay thousands of dollars for "features" and "design." that's the marketing pitch of budget/mid-level watches!

Think about why people pay thousands more for German cars. Is it because of "design" and "features"? That's definitely a part of it, but they know that they can get a cheaper, non-german car with just as good(or better) design and more features for less. Ultimately, the thing that separates a German car and a Japanese car is that many people (who buy German) think its worth paying thousands of dollars more for "German engineering i.e higher performance".

The SWISS are not best known for "design," that is more like the Danes or Swedes. The SWISS are not known for "features" that's more like the Japanese.

The SWISS are known for being the best makers of very fine (small) mechanisms and this does translates to better accuracy in the perception of general, non-WIS watch buyers.


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## pork chop (Jun 24, 2010)

thecustomer said:


> Guys, "Grand Seiko" is a great watch not a great brand. Lexus was initially market as "Toyota Lexus"; It evolved into a brand "Lexus" later on. Hyundai has launched Genesis as "Hyundai Genesis"; the Genesis is "still just a Hyundai". It must need to evolve as a Luxury brand to appeal to the audience that buys Luxury; Hyundai does not appeal to that audience. It may be a matter of great pride for Koreans but not elsewhere.
> 
> Similarly, Seiko with its "Grand Seiko" line must evolve it as a separate brand, not piggy back it on the legacy that is sub-optimal for quality and innovation that lives under "Grand Seiko".


Although I agree with you point, Lexus was always a stand alone brand.


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## Raoul Duke (Jun 11, 2010)

fact is- companies that manufacture watches, cars, etc. will always try to push their brand into other areas to try and expand their market share and/or change their brand's perception with consumers. the VW Phaeton (the W12 model i drove was an astounding car) was never meant to be in the long term lineup/plans and was in fact meant to help pull VW's brand perception upscale (i know this not only as a VW fanboy but also because i worked at a dealership when it came to the US). say what you want about the car, but it was every bit as nice to drive as my aunt's MB S550 at nearly half the cost.

Seiko has a different strategy, but the fact remains that they are a full line (from affordable to luxury) manufacturer of watches and intend to move the 50 y/o Grand Seiko line from an Asian-only marketplace to a worldwide marketplace. the fact that the general public outside of that Asian market doesn't know or understand the value of the GS only serves to underscore the enormous task at hand. they do not have 1/10th the marketing budget of Rolex, nor do they produce 1/10th the number of GS that Rolex produces. my guess is that GS is content to slowly build the brand worldwide with collectors and connoisseurs.

personally, i would rather own a more exclusive, hand made watch that also flies under the radar.


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## sl7vk (Mar 12, 2010)

cold_beer839 said:


> But yet....
> 
> Wonder if we could see a picture of your GS with your user name written on a piece of paper beside it?


LoL....!

We aren't going to see a pic, because he doesn't own one or two.

Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where the comedian converts to Judaism so that he can essentially make Jew jokes. 
"I own a GS, so I can bash them objectively"
Um, no you don't. Now go away.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Dont worry no shoes will be thrown and I'm not going to flame you or anyone else... I didn't realize that it was $75,000 but so what? The whole point of the amazing finishing and unique details of the movement is to show what Credor is capable of right? This is a boutique watch in the purest sense and not a watch to be mass produced so I don't think cost cutting is a concern.



thecustomer said:


> Beautiful watch!!! but $75,000?? Really!? Can they skip spending extra effort on over polishing the innards and make the price..... say $65,000?
> 
> Please don't beat me up on this comment. Just wondering ok.
> 
> View attachment 596446


Thank you Captain! 
Your experiences are exactly what I was hoping to have shared when I started this thread. Your responses are always well thought out though 



serdal23 said:


> Thanks for starting this informative thread, Kingblackbolt. It is good to see some comparisons within Seiko timepieces as well as between Seiko and other brands.
> 
> Here is my experience without any comment:
> 
> ...


----------



## DaveInLA (May 9, 2008)

thecustomer said:


> +1 I have never seen a fan-boy club like Seiko's. Reminded me of the fan-boy lines outside Apple Stores. Although Apple's Marketing and Branding strategy vis-a-vis Seiko is like day and night.


The Omega forum has the same "fanboys" (enthusiasts) that the Seiko forum does. It's pretty clear that they don't like their watches being seen as inferior to Rolex.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

I do understand people who say "Its just a Seiko". Seiko sells watch from 100$ up to a bunch of thousands so it's hard to keep a high end image when you own a $5000 Grand Seiko knowing they guy next to you has a 100$ watch that has the same name on the dial. I have no doubt the Grand Seiko is a fine watch but I think the majority of people expect more than a good watch when they pay thousands. To many people, it's a feeling that only swiss watches with rich histories like Omega or Rolex have. It's known worldwide that fine luxury watches come from Switzerland. The cheapest Omega goes for $3000+ so when I look at my Omega, I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

sl7vk said:


> LoL....!
> 
> We aren't going to see a pic, because he doesn't own one or two.
> 
> ...


LOL!


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## autofiend (May 31, 2009)

eloburg said:


> I do understand people who say "Its just a Seiko". Seiko sells watch from 100$ up to a bunch of thousands so it's hard to keep a high end image when you own a $5000 Grand Seiko knowing they guy next to you has a 100$ watch that has the same name on the dial. I have no doubt the Grand Seiko is a fine watch but I think the majority of people expect more than a good watch when they pay thousands. To many people, it's a feeling that only swiss watches with rich histories like Omega or Rolex have. It's known worldwide that fine luxury watches come from Switzerland. The cheapest Omega goes for $3000+ so when I look at my Omega, I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


It really doesn't matter what the majority of people think. But if YOU get satisfaction out of your Omega/Rolex/IWC/Grand Seiko that is what it's about.

That being said, I am one to "judge a watch on the actual watch". Don't let all the slick hype or perceived value sway your judgement. Why does only a rich Swiss history count? Seiko has one of the richest histories in the industry. I also like the idea that my $200 SKX and $4k GS share the same name on the dial. I happen to like that you can find the same DNA in a lower priced Seiko as is found in their best offerings. Of course, even with a Seiko, you get what you pay for. And then some, maybe. I've owned Rolex and Omega, and IMHO, the GS is the best finished I've owned, without doubt.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

The plot thickens...



cold_beer839 said:


> But yet....
> 
> Wonder if we could see a picture of your GS with your user name written on a piece of paper beside it?


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

eloburg said:


> I do understand people who say "Its just a Seiko". Seiko sells watch from 100$ up to a bunch of thousands so it's hard to keep a high end image when you own a $5000 Grand Seiko knowing they guy next to you has a 100$ watch that has the same name on the dial. I have no doubt the Grand Seiko is a fine watch but I think the majority of people expect more than a good watch when they pay thousands. To many people, it's a feeling that only swiss watches with rich histories like Omega or Rolex have. It's known worldwide that fine luxury watches come from Switzerland. The cheapest Omega goes for $3000+ so when I look at my Omega, I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


As an owner of Omega, Rolex (pre-sapphire crystal), Tag (from when I was young), Longines (vintage), I don't feel the same way at all. I used to think Omega offered the most value, but due to the massive price increases in the past few years, I don't think so anymore. In fact after buying a GS, and taking closer looks at my other watches, I feel a bit bamboozled by the swiss marketing, if anything.


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## sgrenald (Nov 5, 2009)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Swiss invented the quartz movement, but didn't see the application or weren't interested in using it or something. So Seiko licensed the technology and the rest was history...

Hmm...just did a wikipedia check. Looks like the Swiss and Seiko both invented quartz watch movements about the same time, but Seiko was the first to market with an actual product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_clock


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

Who cares if people say it is just a Seiko. It just shows their ignorance.

IMO, the _majority_ of non-WIS Rolex owners wear them BECAUSE of their name as a status symbol. They couldn't tell you anything about the Rolex movement, mfg process, history, etc.... They just spend an ungodly amount of money FOR THE EXPRESS purpose of being recognized.

The fact that you wear a Seiko automatic/Spring Drive IMO shows that you are educated about watches, their movements, heritage, etc.....

Wear the Seiko for you. Wear the Rolex for others.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

sgrenald said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Swiss invented the quartz movement, but didn't see the application or weren't interested in using it or something. So Seiko licensed the technology and the rest was history...


The first quartz wristwatch was revealed by the Swiss, but they definitely didn't "invent" quartz. Just read the wikipedia page on quartz watches.

Seiko was the first to make production quartz watches, but they actually made the license open so that anyone could produce quartz watches. This is what led to the dark period for Swiss watch makers.


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## autofiend (May 31, 2009)

sgrenald said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Swiss invented the quartz movement, but didn't see the application or weren't interested in using it or something. So Seiko licensed the technology and the rest was history...
> 
> Hmm...just did a wikipedia check. Looks like the Swiss and Seiko both invented quartz watch movements about the same time, but Seiko was the first to market with an actual product.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartz_clock


I believe both camps contributed to the invention. Seiko had a quartz clock used in the 1964 Olympics and had started research into building quartz technology in 1959 (the Swiss followed suit in 1962). It appears the Swiss may have had a working quartz wristwatch prototype in 1967. Seiko was the first to introduce it to the public in the Astron in 1969.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

A MattR of Time said:


> Who cares if people say it is just a Seiko. It just shows their ignorance.
> 
> IMO, the majority of non-WIS Rolex owners wear them BECAUSE of their name as a status symbol. They couldn't tell you anything about the Rolex movement, mfg process, history, etc.... They just spend an ungodly amount of money FOR THE EXPRESS purpose of being recognized.
> 
> ...


You are in dangerous territory here.

I am not a Rolex-fanboy but, there is a whole other universe of Rolex WIS and they are some of the most hardcore WIS' around...

They aren't paying $50,000+ on a beat up vintage Rolex to show off that they are wearing a Rolex. They could do that for tens of thousands of dollars less... Plus, if you really wanted to buy a Rolex to show it off to non-WIS and get attention, the shinier (newer) the better.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

sl7vk said:


> LoL....!
> 
> We aren't going to see a pic, because he doesn't own one or two.
> 
> ...


I thought I already told you to get over yourself. I don't need your any one else's validation to have a point of view, and nor do I have to get some kind of an approval to post on this forum.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

cold_beer839 said:


> Wonder if we could see a picture of your GS with your user name written on a piece of paper beside it?


And who are you exactly???!!!


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## dicioccio (Jul 14, 2011)

This thread is really interesting.

In a marketing strategy a fundamental topic is "brand awareness". The brand awareness isn't strictly correlated to the quality of the product but rather to the feeling the brand can give to its customers.

For example we all know that Rolex is one of the most highly recognizable watches and one of the most respected, even if they are not known for their accuracy.

But, as we know, most of the people don't buy a watch for the accuracy or for the fit and finish. They are accustomed to buy a watch because they like it and because the other people will like it: this will give them comfidence because almost no one will tell them "what a stupid purchase". So it is absolutely understandable how a brand like Seiko will be treated in a very different way. In fact a very few people know that GS are even superior to Rolex; unfortunately the brand awareness of the Seiko brand is very very low. So the buyer of a Rolex buys the watch "for the others" while the buyer of a Seiko buys it "for himself".

There is nothing wrong in both of the two attitudes: everyday we apply both "strategies" when making a purchase.

For example when we buy clothes, it is normal to follow the fashion, otherwise people will look us as "aliens". The same is for our hairstyle.

So don't blame at people because the purchase process is different from ours. Watches could be worn "well exposed" to people in order to being popular. But they could also be under our clothes so we buy them only for our personal satisfaction.

Personally I cannot stand a poor accuracy watch so I would go definitely for a quartz. As well as it is very very hard for me to justify a high expensa for a watch because I will pay more for the brand or for the luxury rather than for what I get (a piece of steel with some electronics inside). I can let myself some "self satisfaction" so I can "waste" some money, but not that much. My limit would be something like 2000.

Anyway it is not an easy dilemma to solve. On top of that many users are completely unaware of the technology and the technical details behind a watch. So, for example, the buy a mechanic watch withouth knowing the accuracy differences compared to a quartz. Also they even don't know that mechanicals must be serviced and how much a service can cost. When they purchased that watch they were unaware of that because they didn't wanted to hear all the negative drawbacks. They wanted to know only positive comments, that is opinions that helped them to justify their purchase.

Let them live their life in peace with their Rolex and so on. I know what I like and I buy only what I like, not what the others like...


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

canteaus said:


> LOL!


... and then there were 3; well I guess that makes "the fanboy club" OFFICIAL!


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> ... and then there were 3; well I guess that makes "the fanboy club" OFFICIAL!


thecustomer!! you're alive


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> And who are you exactly???!!!


The guy that wants you to put up or shut up. Tried of you wasting our bandwidth with your hairbrained opinions. Post a picture of your GS with your user name written on a piece of paper beside it. You have no idea how much credit that would give your opinions, as a proclaimed owner of a GS that beats the brand down so badly.....If not, you will continue to be dismissed as a troll.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

This is hardly the thread for me to get involved in, but I don't think the 'general public'/non-WIS buy expensive watches for high performance movements/accuracy. Sure, there's people out there who have a lot of money and know a little about watches and might buy it for that reason. And that's fine. But I think there are far more people out there who buy things because they like how it looks and how it makes _them_ look to others (sometimes, the watch DOES have high performance/accuracy). There's a fool out there somewhere that buys a X-BRAND HI-QUALITY $2500 WATCH and even though it doesn't run great, it impresses the even-more-clueless goobs he associates with.

Edit: this apparently has been said like 6 times on this page alone, but I was responding to someone's quote on the last page on how (not exact quote) 'non-WIS buy expensive to get high performance'.


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## thecustomer (Dec 21, 2011)

eloburg said:


> I do understand people who say "Its just a Seiko". Seiko sells watch from 100$ up to a bunch of thousands so it's hard to keep a high end image when you own a $5000 Grand Seiko knowing they guy next to you has a 100$ watch that has the same name on the dial. I have no doubt the Grand Seiko is a fine watch but I think the majority of people expect more than a good watch when they pay thousands. To many people, it's a feeling that only swiss watches with rich histories like Omega or Rolex have. It's known worldwide that fine luxury watches come from Switzerland. The cheapest Omega goes for $3000+ so when I look at my Omega, I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


+1 ; so on the mark!


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> +1 ; so on the mark!


We patiently await.......


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

eloburg said:


> I do understand people who say "Its just a Seiko". Seiko sells watch from 100$ up to a bunch of thousands so it's hard to keep a high end image when you own a $5000 Grand Seiko knowing they guy next to you has a 100$ watch that has the same name on the dial. I have no doubt the Grand Seiko is a fine watch but I think the majority of people expect more than a good watch when they pay thousands.


I've seen plenty of regular $100 Seiko's while wearing my GS's. Just the other day I saw someone wearing a SKX007 and thought - great watch and it looked nicely worn in.



eloburg said:


> To many people, it's a feeling that only swiss watches with rich histories like Omega or Rolex have. It's known worldwide that fine luxury watches come from Switzerland. The cheapest Omega goes for $3000+ so when I look at my Omega, I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


All this proves is that you've fallen for Rolex, Omega, etc. marketing. That's "feeling" is artificial as far as the quality of the watch... and costs these companies millions of dollars to implant in you and make you feel special because you own one of their timepieces.


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

thecustomer said:


> I thought I already told you to get over yourself. I don't need your any one else's validation to have a point of view, and nor do I have to get some kind of an approval to post on this forum.


Blah-blah-bah. . .

Shudup and post the GS you claim to own!


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

I just stopped responding when I realized he was trolling.


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## Raoul Duke (Jun 11, 2010)

gerrylb said:


> Blah-blah-bah. . .
> 
> Shudup and post the GS you claim to own!


i concur


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

I actually like that "it just a Seiko" thing, then we can have those nice watches for our selves. My Seiko hated friend or he was a Seiko hater until recently. He owns an Omega SMP. He knows that I will buy a Seiko Marinemaster SBDX001 soon. And he has read up and looked at the MM300 in secret and told me for a couple of days ago - "wow that Marinemaster 300m you will buy is a really bad boy, this is the first time I want to buy a Seiko badly". If Im honest I dont like his plan to buy the MM300, I want to be alone to buy it of us two. Somehow I have to convince him that if he buy a MM300 its going to destroy his Omega SMP-guy image :roll: :-d


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

canteaus said:


> You are in dangerous territory here.
> 
> I am not a Rolex-fanboy but, there is a whole other universe of Rolex WIS and they are some of the most hardcore WIS' around...
> 
> They aren't paying $50,000+ on a beat up vintage Rolex to show off that they are wearing a Rolex. They could do that for tens of thousands of dollars less... Plus, if you really wanted to buy a Rolex to show it off to non-WIS and get attention, the shinier (newer) the better.


You are in need of going back to school and retake critical reading.

If you would take the time to READ my post, you would realize I said that the majority of non-WIS Rolex owners.......


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

80talisten said:


> I actually like that "it just a Seiko" thing, then we can have those nice watches for our selves. My Seiko hated friend or he was a Seiko hater until recently. He owns an Omega SMP. He knows that I will buy a Seiko Marinemaster SBDX001 soon. And he has read up and looked at the MM300 in secret and told me for a couple of days ago - "wow that Marinemaster 300m you will buy is a really bad boy, this is the first time I want to buy a Seiko badly". If Im honest I dont like his plan to buy the MM300, I want to be alone to buy it of us two. Somehow I have to convince him that if he buy a MM300 its going to destroy his Omega SMP-guy image :roll: :-d


hahaha! tell him that James Bond doesn't wear Seiko....oh wait


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## gshock626 (Apr 14, 2010)

He's David Hawkins from NC with a great watch collection. Everyone knows that. It's in his signature. :-d



thecustomer said:


> And who are you exactly???!!!


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

canteaus said:


> hahaha! tell him that James Bond doesn't wear Seiko....oh wait


Haha I will :-!


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

A MattR of Time said:


> You are in need of going back to school and retake critical reading.
> 
> If you would take the time to READ my post, you would realize I said that the majority of non-WIS Rolex owners.......


I did take the time to read your post, and I had a problem with this line:



A MattR of Time said:


> "Wear the Seiko for you. Wear the Rolex for others."


I love Seiko, but saying stuff like this is just as ignorant as people who immediately dismiss Seiko as an inferior watch.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Matt,
Thank you for the kind words. After researching Spring Drives I basically felt like I had to own one of these incredible machines and the SBGE001 was a perfect fit for me  Far beyond the technology and incredible fit and finish of this watch I don't think I've owned another piece that puts a smile on my face every day I wear it... That's hard to put a price on.



A MattR of Time said:


> Who cares if people say it is just a Seiko. It just shows their ignorance.
> 
> IMO, the _majority_ of non-WIS Rolex owners wear them BECAUSE of their name as a status symbol. They couldn't tell you anything about the Rolex movement, mfg process, history, etc.... They just spend an ungodly amount of money FOR THE EXPRESS purpose of being recognized.
> 
> ...


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

autofiend said:


> It really doesn't matter what the majority of people think. But if YOU get satisfaction out of your Omega/Rolex/IWC/Grand Seiko that is what it's about.
> 
> That being said, I am one to "judge a watch on the actual watch". Don't let all the slick hype or perceived value sway your judgement. Why does only a rich Swiss history count? Seiko has one of the richest histories in the industry. I also like the idea that my $200 SKX and $4k GS share the same name on the dial. I happen to like that you can find the same DNA in a lower priced Seiko as is found in their best offerings. Of course, even with a Seiko, you get what you pay for. And then some, maybe. I've owned Rolex and Omega, and IMHO, the GS is the best finished I've owned, without doubt.


I don't let it sway my judgement much. Afterall, I still own Campanolas and a Citizen Signature so i have no problem spending big bucks on japanese watches. I understand marketing has a lot to do with perceived quality when it comes to Omega, Rolex and so on but the products themselves are very high quality. Take for example the Omega Planet Ocean. The quality of the watch is superb and it's a very fine watch. I have no doubt that the Grand Seiko is a superb watch but the majority of people will not buy a watch for thousands that bears the same name as a $100 watch. It destroys the image. I am a marketing graduate and from a marketing angle, it's not smart. The biggest example is The Campanola. When the Campanola started putting Campanola on the dial instead of Citizen, sales picked up a lot more.

When it comes to high end watches, image is everything. There are a few who appreciate the watch for what it is like the people who buy the Grand Seiko but they are the minority. Like I said, I appreciate Swiss watches because I like how they make me feel and I also enjoy my high end Japanese watches. In peoples heads, swiss=luxury.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

I think you miss the point that Seiko has never marketed the GS outside Japan. It is only within the last year that a select few US dealers were even allowed to carry the GS line, and only select models then.

They simply don't care about marketing the GS to the world right now.

I know you can't be a swiss brand zombie and understand this. I owned an Omega SMP 2255 and Rolex 16163 Submariner. After getting my SBGA029, the Omega got cut from the team, and now the Rolex is heading that way to make room for a SBGA011 Snowflake. So, I owned all three discussed brands at the same time and saw the difference in quality between the GS and the other two. The GS put them to shame, but most folks posting here in dissent have never owned one or even held one, so they really have no idea.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

clarencek said:


> I've seen plenty of regular $100 Seiko's while wearing my GS's. Just the other day I saw someone wearing a SKX007 and thought - great watch and it looked nicely worn in.
> 
> All this proves is that you've fallen for Rolex, Omega, etc. marketing. That's "feeling" is artificial as far as the quality of the watch... and costs these companies millions of dollars to implant in you and make you feel special because you own one of their timepieces.


Based on your Signature, it looks like you own a number of Rolexes so it looks like you are the one fallen for Rolex, Omega, etc. marketing ;-). It's not only marketing, Rolex and Omega make high quality watches proved by you owning a number of Rolexes.


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

canteaus said:


> I did take the time to read your post, and I had a problem with this line:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, he spent big bucks on a Spring Drive, not a Rolex. Spring Drives cost in the neighborhood of a Rolex, so he obviously bought the watch for himself, NOT what others would think about it. ESPECIALLY non-WIS types. Only a Rolex fanboy would not understand that.


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## autofiend (May 31, 2009)

eloburg said:


> I don't let it sway my judgement much. Afterall, I still own Campanolas and a Citizen Signature so i have no problem spending big bucks on japanese watches. I understand marketing has a lot to do with perceived quality when it comes to Omega, Rolex and so on but the products themselves are very high quality. Take for example the Omega Planet Ocean. The quality of the watch is superb and it's a very fine watch. I have no doubt that the Grand Seiko is a superb watch but the majority of people will not buy a watch for thousands that bears the same name as a $100 watch. It destroys the image. I am a marketing graduate and from a marketing angle, it's not smart. The biggest example is The Campanola. When the Campanola started putting Campanola on the dial instead of Citizen, sales picked up a lot more.
> 
> When it comes to high end watches, image is everything. There are a few who appreciate the watch for what it is like the people who buy the Grand Seiko but they are the minority. Like I said, I appreciate Swiss watches because I like how they make me feel and I also enjoy my high end Japanese watches. In peoples heads, swiss=luxury.


You seem to be operating under the assumption that Seiko's branding model would be similar to a Western/European one. This is simply not the case. The Japanese have no issues with a brand that sells entry level products and luxury products. As the post above states, Seiko's Grand Seiko limited U.S. release reflects Grand Seiko's limited production scale and the marketing was not redesigned for Western applications.

I also was not referring to the Western majority's attitude toward luxury watches. I simply don't care how my watch is perceived by others and this has 0 effect on my own enjoyment.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

autofiend said:


> You seem to be operating under the assumption that Seiko's branding model would be similar to a Western/European one. This is simply not the case. The Japanese have no issues with a brand that sells entry level products and luxury products. As the post above states, Seiko's Grand Seiko limited U.S. release reflects Grand Seiko's limited production scale and the marketing was not redesigned for Western applications.
> 
> I also was not referring to the Western majority's attitude toward luxury watches. I simply don't care how my watch is perceived by others and this has 0 effect on my own enjoyment.


Good for you but you are in the minority. The Japanese might not have a problem selling entry level and luxury watches under the same brand but in my opinion, that will always limit their sales of their luxury products. Like I said, I mostly agree with you. What I'm saying is that most people don't see it that way.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

I personally have no problem owning high end watches from Japan or Switzerland. I love all my watches, I was just trying to make a point. As you can see I own high end from both.

Citizen Calibre 2100 Titanium with Sapphire









Citizen Signature Titanium Flyback









42mm Planet Ocean orange numbers









42mm Planet Ocean white numbers









Grand Complication Campanola red lacquered dial









Limited edition Campanola blue lacquered dial(Only 300 made)









42mm Deville Co axial









Solid 18k Gold Omega Aqua Terra









IWC Titanium Aquatimer









and more!


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

^^^That, sir, is a truly stunning collection!


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

gerrylb said:


> ^^^That, sir, is a truly stunning collection!


Thank you


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## brett kenny (Aug 4, 2009)

everyone wait here while i set up the sack tap machine. its gonna get a work out...


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

eloburg said:


> Based on your Signature, it looks like you own a number of Rolexes so it looks like you are the one fallen for Rolex, Omega, etc. marketing ;-). It's not only marketing, Rolex and Omega make high quality watches proved by you owning a number of Rolexes.


Why would you say that? Just to remind you - YOU wrote this:



eloburg said:


> I know not anyone can buy one and that alone makes it feel more exclusive and high end. I have personally owned and own a number of Campanolas, Citizen Signature and while they are fine watches, I can't help but think of them as Citizens sometimes. Maybe it's just me but when I wear my Omega, IWC or Rolex it just feels different. I understand some people judge a watch based on the actual watch but the majority of people care about the name first whether it's right or wrong. That's the way it is.


I don't "feel" different wearing my Rolexes vs my Grand Seiko's vs any other brand.

If the name on the watch makes you feel special - more power to you. I'm just pointing out that that special "feel" is just their marketing working on you.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

clarencek said:


> Why would you say that? Just to remind you - YOU wrote this:
> 
> I don't "feel" different wearing my Rolexes vs my Grand Seiko's vs any other brand.
> 
> If the name on the watch makes you feel special - more power to you. I'm just pointing out that that special "feel" is just their marketing working on you.


I don't deny marketing plays a role and has some power but it has worked on you too. Would you pay that much for those watches if they didn't say Rolex on the dial?. I doubt it because I can get you comparable watches for a lot less. Whether you know it or not, Marketing influences everybody to an extent.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

A MattR of Time said:


> Well, he spent big bucks on a Spring Drive, not a Rolex. Spring Drives cost in the neighborhood of a Rolex, so he obviously bought the watch for himself, NOT what others would think about it. ESPECIALLY non-WIS types. Only a Rolex fanboy would not understand that.


Hahahaha! Me, a Rolex fanboy?

Have you read ANYTHING that I posted on this thread? I practically wrote a novel worshipping the Seiko company! Have you seen my avatar picture?

I just get fed up when people like you tarnish the image of Seiko enthusiasts by making ignorant comments about Rolex, even if you're just talking about non-WIS Rolex collectors!


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Very nice collection! I've owned several of those Omegas before and that same model of IWC. Ive never heard of those citizens before and I'm impressed... Let me know if you decide to sell that blue dialed one 



eloburg said:


> I personally have no problem owning high end watches from Japan or Switzerland. I love all my watches, I was just trying to make a point. As you can see I own high end from both.
> 
> Citizen Calibre 2100 Titanium with Sapphire
> 
> ...


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

kingblackbolt said:


> Very nice collection! I've owned several of those Omegas before and that same model of IWC. Ive never heard of those citizens before and I'm impressed... Let me know if you decide to sell that blue dialed one


Thanks . Yes those Citizen Campanolas are amazing. All hand made and lacquered, their quality is mind blowing. I will definitely let you know if I decide to get rid of the blue one.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Thank you sir! To be quite honest I was hardly even aware of the Campanola line so I learned something new from my thread  what's the MSRP on the blue dialed beauty?

Heres my contribution for a high end watch from a company not associated with making them...

Timex TX Dual Timezone Flyback Chronograph. German design, Japanese movement and built in compass:












eloburg said:


> Thanks . Yes those Citizen Campanolas are amazing. All hand made and lacquered, their quality is mind blowing. I will definitely let you know if I decide to get rid of the blue one.


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## OTX (May 14, 2008)

kingblackbolt said:


> Thank you sir! To be quite honest I was hardly even aware of the Campanola line so I learned something new from my thread  what's the MSRP on the blue dialed beauty?
> 
> Heres my contribution for a high end watch from a company not associated with making them...
> 
> Timex TX Dual Timezone Flyback Chronograph. German design, Japanese movement and built in compass:


Yes I know that watch. I considered buying that Timex once but I ended up getting a Casio Oceanus. I'm sure I will own it soon enough . I'm not sure what the blue Campanola retails for but I think the MSRP is around $3500. I don't wear it much as it's a limited piece but when I do, it grabs attention. Here is a pic of the guy who lacquers all the Campanola watches. he is actually lacquering the dial of my other(red) Campanola in the pic. I read an article where it said that he has been lacquering for so long that he has lost his fingerprints .

*







*


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## CrystalBall (Nov 2, 2011)

Of course the desirability of Swiss watches depends upon branding, marketing and advertising. How could it be otherwise? When you own a luxury watch you buy into the image and lifestyle of the brand. This, to a large extent, is what you are paying for. This aura of exclusivity is what gives you the "special feeling". If you are willing to pay, for example, £2,000 for a quartz watch which is essentially no different from another which costs £200 bar the name on the dial, that's your personal choice. I don't do it myself, but I have nothing against those that do. The same is true for countless other products, from shoes to cars. We all know that this is the case.

My impression is that the Japanese conception of brand is fundamentally different to the Western one. They are less brand-obsessed, for a start, and there is a long- standing commitment to making quality products at different price points to accommodate different budgets. In other words, quality shouldn't just be the preserve of the rich. Western companies making high-end products wouldn't suscribe to this approach, as making cheaper ranges would be seen as tarnishing their carefully cultivated image. They could do it, no question, but they choose not to. Seiko is a full-spectrum manufacturer in the true Japanese tradition, producing great products for every budget. Long may it continue.


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

eloburg said:


> I don't deny marketing plays a role and has some power but it has worked on you too. Would you pay that much for those watches if they didn't say Rolex on the dial?. I doubt it because I can get you comparable watches for a lot less. Whether you know it or not, Marketing influences everybody to an extent.


Its worked on me too? You dont know me and why I purchased my Rolexes. I would actually prefer them if they didn't say Rolex on the dial. However I love the design build and quality. Same as my Grand Seiko collection. 
I've tried a number of brands - AP, Panerai, Omega, casio, citizen, Ball, Zixen, MKII, B&R, Longines, etc. I judge the quality of the watch based on what I actually see, feel and wear. Not by the name printed or applied on the dial.


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## bedlam (Jul 1, 2009)

CrystalBall said:


> This, to a large extent, is what you are paying for. This aura of exclusivity is what gives you the "special feeling".


And then you see every man and his dog wearing a Rolex or Omega as they try for that same warm glow of being exceptable and exclusive.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I love having a "high end" Seiko. I get a world class watch, clients don't feel like they're overcharged and I don't appear ostentatious to the blue collar crowd. 

We used to do this with cars. We'd have custom dual exhaust systems and so on, but choose unnecessarily restrictive mufflers and end the pipes before the bumper so you couldn't see them or really hear them. Stock wheels, stock looking everything, every dollar was in the engine, transmission, tires or chassis. It was advantageous that people thought the cars were stock. 

I suspect that, in the appropriate situation, my Seiko is an advantage.


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## Shagrath (Apr 29, 2011)

CitizenM said:


> Stock wheels, stock looking everything, every dollar was in the engine, transmission, tires or chassis. It was advantageous that people thought the cars were stock.
> 
> I suspect that, in the appropriate situation, my Seiko is an advantage.


That's what car guys call a "Sleeper." It's a seemingly stock or "slow" car that can blow the doors off all those loud flashy hot rods. Perhaps that's what Grand Seiko is to a Rolex or Omega, they have no idea that it's not "just" a Seiko.


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

CitizenM said:


> I love having a "high end" Seiko. I get a world class watch, clients don't feel like they're overcharged and I don't appear ostentatious to the blue collar crowd.
> 
> We used to do this with cars. We'd have custom dual exhaust systems and so on, but choose unnecessarily restrictive mufflers and end the pipes before the bumper so you couldn't see them or really hear them. Stock wheels, stock looking everything, every dollar was in the engine, transmission, tires or chassis. It was advantageous that people thought the cars were stock.
> 
> I suspect that, in the appropriate situation, my Seiko is an advantage.


I generally dislike car-watch analogies, but this one sounds pretty good.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

We are nearly a whole page (at my settings) without hearing from thecustomer. I guess requesting him to validate his self-claimed stake in this thread kinda spooked him. It was like turning on the lights and seeing a cockroach run like hell.


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

cold_beer839 said:


> We are nearly a whole page (at my settings) without hearing from thecustomer. I guess requesting him to validate his self-claimed stake in this thread kinda spooked him. It was like turning on the lights and seeing a cockroach run like hell.


He posted an Invicta for sale on the trading post a few hours ago. Maybe he's trying to scrape together enough moolah to buy a GS and post a pic. . . heheh.


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## canteaus (Nov 3, 2011)

gerrylb said:


> He posted an Invicta for sale on the trading post a few hours ago. Maybe he's trying to scrape together enough moolah to buy a GS and post a pic. . . heheh.


he's going to have to sell a lot of invictas to scrape up that kind of money....

Then again, he just might be the guy who has an invicta collection....


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Looks like "thecustomer" has decided to shop elsewhere... He really listed an Invicta? LOL!


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

kingblackbolt said:


> Looks like "thecustomer" has decided to shop elsewhere... He really listed an Invicta? LOL!


Yup, it's down to $50 and still no bites. Anyone wanna lend the guy a hand so he can add a few bucks to his GS fund?


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

I bought my Speedmaster in '05 to replace the "Omega" feeling I had back in the 60's when I had to sell a Seamaster Deville when the kids were little and because of 
the Moon missions. At the time I owned a beater Seiko work watch that was surprisingly accurate (-2/3 sec a month). It was just a Seiko. Sold that $100 10 year old
Seiko to a co-worker for $50 after two crystal replacements' two soakings....took the back off and air dried out the truck window.

I wanted affordable accuracy and quality and got back into Seiko with the SBCM023. Now that's a watch. Would I buy another Omega or high end Swiss watch? Never.
I want to throw up when I open up the latest Watch Time magazine !

I was planning on keeping the Speedmaster to pass on to my son who has the need for something impressive on his wrist, but am seriously considering trading it for a Spring Drive.
I want accuracy, not cachet.

Walter


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Well worth the $50 especially if you do a face to face... Maybe he could wear his GS?



gerrylb said:


> Yup, it's down to $50 and still no bites. Anyone wanna lend the guy a hand so he can add a few bucks to his GS fund?


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## JWC2012 (Jan 8, 2012)

Watch Time magazine is nothing more than a "journalistic" puff piece, a sales brochure if you will, written in behalf of the Swiss watch industry.


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

I don't begrudge spending the money on the Speedmaster...it is a well crafted watch. My needs and wants have changed. So has the Swiss watch industry.

My wife asked if I wanted a subscription renewal for Watch Time and I said NO ! At my age I have learned to recognize BS bubbling up through the pages.
I especially liked the article about Rolex's unique automated "robots" used in a hand crafted watch.

Walter


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

The only times I've cracked open one those is when I was given it free 



JWC2012 said:


> Watch Time magazine is nothing more than a "journalistic" puff piece, a sales brochure if you will, written in behalf of the Swiss watch industry.


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

kingblackbolt said:


> The only times I've cracked open one those is when I was given it free


Depending on how many freebies you get, you'll miss all those Seiko, Citizen and Casio ads 

Walter


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## averagejoe303 (May 7, 2011)

thecustomer said:


> case in point Mercedes Benz's Smart Car or the Aston Martin's Cygnet (see picture below: super sports car maker making a compact hatchback??):
> 
> View attachment 596584
> 
> ...


Correction, the cygnet is made from the Toyota IQ.


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## gerrylb (Mar 5, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> I wanted affordable accuracy and quality and got back into Seiko with the SBCM023. Now that's a watch.


The SBCM023 is, perhaps, the very embodiment of the value and quality Seiko offers. Where else can one find a perpetual calendar complication, high-accuracy quartz movement, and 200m WR in a low-key, classically designed watch for what that model costs?


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

gerrylb said:


> The SBCM023 is, perhaps, the very embodiment of the value and quality Seiko offers. Where else can one find a perpetual calendar complication, high-accuracy quartz movement, and 200m WR in a low-key, classically designed watch for what that model costs?


Absolutely correct. I consider myself fortunate and have to thank this and other watch forums for enlightening me on the SBCM023. I do feel sorry for those that have shunned or flipped this watch because of the size.

Some in the WIS community might have looked at the SBCM023 as "just another Seiko". Now it's gone.

Walter


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## serdal23 (May 15, 2011)

I totally agree with you, Walter. I just sold mine to a very nice gentleman in USA. Now I regret a lot, and trying to source one to keep forever. 

If anybody is planning to sell his SBCM023, please PM me.

I am not a quartz person, but when it comes to Seiko, WHEN IT COMES TO SBCM023, no question is asked! Period . . .

Capt. Serdal


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Thats a very nice model I was unaware of... For around $400 used that's some value! Again this thread educates me on Seiko... In a good way 
Hope you find one Captain!



serdal23 said:


> I totally agree with you, Walter. I just sold mine to a very nice gentleman in USA. Now I regret a lot, and trying to source one to keep forever.
> 
> If anybody is planning to sell his SBCM023, please PM me.
> 
> ...


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

And to think the SCBM023 sold new for $295 less than a year ago.

Walter


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## geremy (Apr 11, 2006)

I think that's mostly yen v. dollar valuations causing the price increases. The Japanese government says it is trying to devalue the currency to make exports easier, but so far it has only slowed it's growth.


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

$295 was an excellent price for a very special watch that has been discontinued. I don't believe there were that many sold.

Average $400 used is now supply and demand. 

Walter


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## serdal23 (May 15, 2011)

My SBCM023 is on its way. I will post lots of fotos once it arrives. Your prayers worked, my friend Walter! Thank you very much.

This will be either on my wrist or in my keeper / wearer rotation, but there is no way it is leaving my watch head quarter in my secret corner in the bedroom. 

Very Best Regards . . .

Capt. Serdal


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## JWC2012 (Jan 8, 2012)

serdal23 said:


> My SBCM023 is on its way. I will post lots of fotos once it arrives. Your prayers worked, my friend Walter! Thank you very much.
> 
> This will be either on my wrist or in my keeper / wearer rotation, but there is no way it is leaving my watch head quarter in my secret corner in the bedroom.
> 
> ...


I had 2 SBCM023 Prospex 8F35 divers. First one was bought new in late 2010, sold 3 months after. Second one bought around May 2011, also brand new. Kept it for 6 months and sold it for 50% more than I originally paid for it within 30 minutes of listing it.

It is a fabulous watch but could not get used to the size. Tried and tried but no dice. Honestly, I would not try getting a 3rd time. I will end up flipping it again.


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## h2oflyer (Oct 3, 2009)

serdal23 said:


> My SBCM023 is on its way. I will post lots of fotos once it arrives. Your prayers worked, my friend Walter! Thank you very much.
> 
> This will be either on my wrist or in my keeper / wearer rotation, but there is no way it is leaving my watch head quarter in my secret corner in the bedroom.
> 
> ...


Glad you found one. KEEP THIS ONE! Don't worry about the size. Seiko designed and built a super accurate watch and the size is part of the whole. A unique package.

Walter


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## djst (Dec 24, 2010)

eloburg said:


> I don't let it sway my judgement much. Afterall, I still own Campanolas and a Citizen Signature so i have no problem spending big bucks on japanese watches. I understand marketing has a lot to do with perceived quality when it comes to Omega, Rolex and so on but the products themselves are very high quality. Take for example the Omega Planet Ocean. The quality of the watch is superb and it's a very fine watch. I have no doubt that the Grand Seiko is a superb watch but the majority of people will not buy a watch for thousands that bears the same name as a $100 watch. It destroys the image. I am a marketing graduate and from a marketing angle, it's not smart. The biggest example is The Campanola. When the Campanola started putting Campanola on the dial instead of Citizen, sales picked up a lot more.
> 
> When it comes to high end watches, image is everything. There are a few who appreciate the watch for what it is like the people who buy the Grand Seiko but they are the minority. Like I said, I appreciate Swiss watches because I like how they make me feel and I also enjoy my high end Japanese watches. In peoples heads, swiss=luxury.


This resonates with me. The Japanese market is definitely different from the western market in terms of brand importance (forgive me for yet another car/watch analogy, but this is why the Lexus brand was created to market luxury Toyotas in the US) -- but this difference is slowly but steadily changing as the world becomes more globalized. Today, Lexus is sold in Japan, too. I'm sure it might have a certain effect to Seiko (it certainly explains the "it's just a Seiko" remarks from uninformed colleagues and friends), but of course people in this forum know better than to care about it.... or maybe they secretly feel good about the slightly different "Grand Seiko" brand.


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## Censport (Jan 21, 2012)

Personally, I would love to have a Grand Seiko. Especially the SBGR061. Or a vintage Lord Marvel. The only Rolex that strikes my fancy is an Oyster Perpetual from the late 50's.

I don't let the brand thing get to me. Sure, I love the looks and feel of a Moto Guzzi, but I don't think it's the only bike out there. I'll have another Guzzi when I can afford a spare bike. For now, I'm quite happy with my Yamaha.

For a lot of people, Rolex is the only high=end brand they know. With motorcycles, it's Harley Davidson. Guns, it's Kimber. Cars, the Corvette. I think they don't know what they're missing.


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## kiatkiat (Jan 4, 2012)

djst said:


> This resonates with me. The Japanese market is definitely different from the western market in terms of brand importance (forgive me for yet another car/watch analogy, but this is why the Lexus brand was created to market luxury Toyotas in the US) -- but this difference is slowly but steadily changing as the world becomes more globalized. Today, Lexus is sold in Japan, too. I'm sure it might have a certain effect to Seiko (it certainly explains the "it's just a Seiko" remarks from uninformed colleagues and friends), but of course people in this forum know better than to care about it.... or maybe they secretly feel good about the slightly different "Grand Seiko" brand.


If brand name is not important to japanese, why did they created the Credor? And Grand Seiko is not a brand, its a model name. That why on every GS the logo "Seiko" always appear on the watch face, except for the 130 anniversary version.


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## yory88 (Jan 17, 2012)

i'd like to know about how rare is seiko S WAVE 7s26-0120 with old green dial... i just bought this watch coz there is sumting i cant explain, i just love it and rit now i wanna to know how special is this SEIKO type

can anyone tell me ? 

iam new here and iam really love old vintage.......hi to everyone


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## serdal23 (May 15, 2011)

In fact, despite my 7.25" wrist, I love bigger size watches, such as 43+ mm, however when I wore SBCM023, I still felt the weight of the watch regardless with SS bracelet or with Zulu or Nato. And I got used to its 39 mm size right away! 

I am even working on the second one now! I will wear one of them as my daily wearer (Despite I am an automatic watch maniac!) in rotation with another incoming 7548-7002, and will keep the other in its box. 

Tell me I am not crazy! :-db-)

Capt. Serdal


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## 80talisten (Jul 24, 2011)

Why should a genuin watchlover care about if Seiko has "prestige" or not. Im bying watches because I love them for what they are. And Seiko makes some of the best everyday watches in the world, they are as good if not better than Omega and Rolex in quality/finish.


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## Aerofish (Aug 10, 2011)

Easily 95% of the watches worn at my work place are of the Black, rubber/resin, LCD type. A co-worker commented on my SKX007 on a WJean oyster. My response was that it was my beater (compared to my SARBS) and her response was pretty profound - " In a land of black rubber watches your watch (007) is a Rolex". I had to smile as this person is not a WIS, in fact doesn't wear a watch relying on her cell phone for the time. This is probably the general view of the non-WIS' take regarding Seikos. Just had to share this lol.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

kiatkiat said:


> If brand name is not important to japanese, why did they created the Credor? And Grand Seiko is not a brand, its a model name. That why on every GS the logo "Seiko" always appear on the watch face, except for the 130 anniversary version.


Credor is not a separate brand name either, it's a watch line made by Seiko. "Seiko" may not appear on the dial itself, but it is on the case back and movement of every Credor I have seen, so they aren't trying to hide Credor's origins. Sure they wanted to let people know this is not your average Seiko or Grand Seiko, but they still want you to know it's made by Seiko. I think the point is still missed by some posting here that Seiko has never marketed the GS anywhere outside Asia. They have only recently started allowing a select group of dealers to carry them in the US. In other words, I doubt there is a marketing committee at Seiko right now that is worrying about the brand image of the GS in the US or anywhere else.


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## CrystalBall (Nov 2, 2011)

Aerofish said:


> Easily 95% of the watches worn at my work place are of the Black, rubber/resin, LCD type. A co-worker commented on my SKX007 on a WJean oyster. My response was that it was my beater (compared to my SARBS) and her response was pretty profound - " In a land of black rubber watches your watch (007) is a Rolex". I had to smile as this person is not a WIS, in fact doesn't wear a watch relying on her cell phone for the time. This is probably the general view of the non-WIS' take regarding Seikos. Just had to share this lol.


Which is what I keep saying. In the scheme of things, a Seiko is an above average watch. Only a tiny minority of people wear Omega, Tag Heuer, etc. In the UK, the most popular brands are Accurist, Rotary, Casio, Fossil, etc. Their watch is designed to do a job and is only replaced when it wears out. Forget the same league, these brands aren't on the same planet as Seiko.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

I know a couple younger guys who think their Nixon and Oakley watches are 'real mens' watches due to the industrial looks and 'high price'. As in 'this watch is awesome, it cost me 300 bucks'.

edit: Did I really kill the thread with this??


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

I must confess to being one who until late last year never looked at Seikos. Then came October and I was browsing on the bay for "rare vintage watch automatic" and bingo! I noticed a 6306, then a 6105 and then the 62MAS... and since then I have become the owner of over 70 of these babes!! Happily, I understand from new friends I have made on a very welcoming forum that I am not alone (or a freak). Having been collecting watches now for over 3 decades, I am amazed by the variety of this wholly (unjustifiably) under-rated brand. I have acquired a 9 strong brood of automatic Tunas (including 3 6159-7010s - one without the "m") and shrouds... and man, is this addictive!! 

To all Seiko lovers, stand tall and ignore the ignorant. Forgive them for they know not what what they are missing...


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

So then, is this 'Just a Citizen'?


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## Dr.Bombay (Dec 18, 2011)

A MattR of Time said:


> So then, is this 'Just a Citizen'?


I don't think Citizen suffers from quite the same phenomenon. At least, not nearly as frequently.

Where I live (Vancouver, Canada) Citizen seems to be held in higher regard than Seiko by the public at large. Also, It seems like just about every single mall & department store watch shop here carries Citizen and Bulova, as well as a few other brands, but only a handful carry Seiko. I had the experience a couple weeks ago of going to the one shop at a local mall that did carry Seiko watches, to find they'd liquidated their stock and no longer carry the brand. When a sales person came to help me I explained that I'd come to look at a Seiko they'd had a couple weeks earlier. The response I got was "Oh! You don't want_ a Seiko_" She made a face while she said it. I couldn't believe it!

I'm not sure if the lack of popularity here is due to a lack of marketing and availability, or if the brand doesn't have a presence because it wasn't popular and marketing and supplied dropped off. Either way, I get the feeling Seiko isn't well represented here, while Citizen seems fairly popular.

Nice watch by the way.


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

Wow! What is that? Mustn't get started on Citizens...


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

The NH6391-06E "AutoZilla". Their flagship diver.





















Pipwatch said:


> Wow! What is that? Mustn't get started on Citizens...


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## CrystalBall (Nov 2, 2011)

Dr.Bombay said:


> I don't think Citizen suffers from quite the same phenomenon. At least, not nearly as frequently.
> 
> Where I live (Vancouver, Canada) Citizen seems to be held in higher regard than Seiko by the public at large. Also, It seems like just about every single mall & department store watch shop here carries Citizen and Bulova, as well as a few other brands, but only a handful carry Seiko. I had the experience a couple weeks ago of going to the one shop at a local mall that did carry Seiko watches, to find they'd liquidated their stock and no longer carry the brand. When a sales person came to help me I explained that I'd come to look at a Seiko they'd had a couple weeks earlier. The response I got was "Oh! You don't want_ a Seiko_" She made a face while she said it. I couldn't believe it!
> 
> ...


It's a similar story in the UK. Citizen now seems to be the better represented of the two, and some dealers seem to be promoting Citizen at the expense of Seiko. I think the Kinetic platform has lost out to Eco-drive and there seems to be a dearth of interesting new Seiko designs. Too many busy-looking sports watches and a lack of classic/dress watches. Also, maybe there are better margins or incentives on Citizen? A shame really, as in my experience Seiko is a step up from Citizen in terms of quality.


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## Aussie Matt (Aug 23, 2010)

Funny, my Rolex GMT Master hardly gets any wrist time at all. My Seikos however....

Here's a really funny story: when I dropped my Rolex in at Rolex in Sydney to have it serviced a few years ago, the head technician spotted the Seiko SKX173 on my wrist. He immediately recognised it as a 173 and then spent five minutes raving on about how fantastic the Seiko SKX series were! For the money that service cost, I should have bought a couple more Seikos! I walked out in disbelief but a very proud Seiko owner.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Rollie, it is a beautiful watch and older than I am, but it was my Dad's and I'm keeping it in good running order so I can give it to my son one day. I'm more than happy to wear a Seiko. And I just remembered something: my Dad, with a Rolex and a couple of Omegas in his collection, always seemed to have a Seiko on his wrist.


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

A MattR of Time said:


> The NH6391-06E "AutoZilla". Their flagship diver.


I saw one of these fantastic lookers on a watch winder at a famous Singapore watch repairer on Saturday. When I commented on how stunning it looked, the friendly watchsmith replied, "but it's got a normal Miyota movement". It reminds me of a 1960s Dave Berg (Mad magazine) cartoon in which, when shown the centre fold photo of a men's magazine, the dentist replied, "Yuck!! Her teeth are in cross bite!". LMAO!

Am losing my resolve... Ugghhh!! Need to order one...


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## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

The movement is specially built and finished for this watch[as my reading has indicated]










Mine is running within COSC specs - about +3 to +4 sec/day.



Pipwatch said:


> I saw one of these fantastic lookers on a watch winder at a famous Singapore watch repairer on Saturday. When I commented on how stunning it looked, the friendly watchsmith replied, "but it's got a normal Miyota movement". It reminds me of a 1960s Dave Berg (Mad magazine) cartoon in which, when shown the centre fold photo of a men's magazine, the dentist replied, "Yuck!! Her teeth are in cross bite!". LMAO!
> 
> Am losing my resolve... Ugghhh!! Need to order one...


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

Thanks, Matt. I'm convinced... What tremendous lume, too!!


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

Pipwatch said:


> Thanks, Matt. I'm convinced... What tremendous lume, too!!


Still looking for one. Retailer whom I bought from has just returned my payment - out of stock.


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## Pipwatch (Jan 17, 2012)

Here's my new Autozilla from Japan Watch. Agree with Matt - it certainly isn't "just a Citizen"!


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## pbubsy (Nov 21, 2008)

I've only had my MM300 about a week now and have already had a few people ask if it's a Rolex, their interest obviously piqued. They deflated when I either told or showed them it was a Seiko . I'm used to people having their heads in their rears regarding most things.....I'm from California. Can't be offended by other people's ignorance if you're not concerned with their opinion in the first place. I don't buy the watches I do to be noticed, complimented or show off.....I buy them because of how they make me feel. There's nothing like having a well tuned mechanical/auto timekeeper ticking away on your wrist that exudes great engineering/design/craftsmanship. Makes me smile every time I need/want to know what time it is.....which seems to be more frequent with some watches .

I enjoy the brand anonymity when I wear a Seiko (people assume it's a cheap watch), a Sinn or a Panerai for example. I only know of a couple people who have even heard of Panerai but I'm always being complimented on my PAM111 by those that appreciate the classic design.....they don't know what they're looking at but they know it LOOKS pretty cool/unique. I've owned a Rolex Seadweller but just wasn't that crazy about it. Not to mention it kind of disappeared on my wrist....was just too small for me. I appreciate the history and pedigree as well as the quality/performance of the in-house movement but apart from that, the watches just don't impress me that much when I weigh the cost to actual value ratio when compared with many other watches. Especially given the fact that I could pick up a few of them in place of the ONE Rolex .

I've tried to keep myself down to just one or two watches but it seems variety is the spice of life! I'll wear an my Seamaster Chrono or my PAM one day and a Monster or a G-Shock the next. Nice to have choices! Price doesn't really factor.....I still get excited by my entry level Seiko autos. There's a lot to be appreciated in the offerings by the many mfgr's/watchmakers out there.

I'd love to get a dive watch with a robust/overbuilt/industrial German case (with a middleground somewhere between a Sinn and a Frickers case) with the fine detail/craftsmanship of Swiss dialwork/hands and the performance/value/craftsmanship/cool of a finely tuned Grand Seiko movement. THAT would be something to see.


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## incontrol (Sep 11, 2010)

What happened to you is one of the reasons I pulled the trigger on my Grand Seiko. Of course there are a thousand other reasons technically why I bought one, but this and the fact that the Watch Snob doesn't list it as one of the watches he recommends to buy is icing on the cake!


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## quantex (Apr 10, 2012)

Hey, when I told my wife I was buying a SEIKO, she said "those are some nice watches". We both own matching Tags (real), and have matching fake Rolex's (actually keep good time). Now that I have the OM, I have to say it is an amazing watch. I do love my Tag, it is 18K rose gold (you can see it in the Tag section) and jaws drop when I am in a Tag outlet or jewerly store. It is a neat watch.

I can tell by the quailty of my new SEIKO that this is going to be my go to watch 99% of the time. It is the most comfortable watch I have ever warn. Plus I just discovered that it was made in Oct 2011 and in this day and age of crappy QC, this exceeded my expectations.


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## mhammer8 (Apr 12, 2011)

I probably won't ever be able to afford a Grand Seiko, but the guy who gives me the most grief about my 6309 and SNZG custom wears TAG, of all things. I die laughing inside and out.


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## spanky1 (Jan 19, 2011)

Show them the April 2012 Edition of Watch Time Magazine: After reading the ten page article on Seiko, I went and purchased an SBGA Grand Seiko Diver. If you're considering a Seiko, it's worth your money to buy a copy of the Magazine.


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## DIC1 (Apr 22, 2012)

impresionante , autentico relojazo en toda regla , solo un Seiko ?? autentico relojazo discreto


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

I have an SNK Seiko 5 and since I swapped out the bracelet to an oyster type with polished center links (from an old Seiko chrono), it now looks a lot like a Rolex Datejust with a domed bezel. When my friends see it, they can't believe it's "just a Seiko." They get even more flabbergasted when I tell them how much I got it for. lol

I love my Seiko 5. It looks great, tells time accurately enough, is very well made, has everything in-house (unlike most of those more "famous" brands). It amazes me what Seiko is able to do at such a low price point.

The GS posted by the OP is one of my favorites but unfortunately, my small wrists can't handle a watch of that size. So, I'm trying to get my hands on their DJ and explorer style watches. Grand Seiko has possibly one of the best lines of watches in all of horology. Most people don't get it but it's not meant for everybody. It's meant for those few who prefer quality perfection, understated elegance, technical superiority. Those are traits nobody should be ashamed of.


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## Griffin2008 (Jan 1, 2011)

Funny enough I've been browsing through several articles and pictures of Grand Seikos in the past few days ... you know, to keep myself motivated on saving up for one  .

In doing so I came across a review in which one point of view stood out (don't remember the name of the author but if you're reading this, congrats on the thought): _Seiko represents a different approach to watch making, which doesn't need any justification, just understanding_. I think this sums up the differences between Seiko and other, mostly European, watch brands - i.e. an almost fanatic approach to finishing parts that actually impact the performance of the watch and a more mechanical finishing of parts that don't.

All the time while reading these articles I was wearing my MM300 and every time I look at it to check the time my eyes linger just a little bit longer to look at some part that is simply beautiful to my eyes. For instance the way the dial appears to be shiny if the sun hits the crystal in just the right angle or the way the lugs are shaped when viewed from the top or I start fiddling with the bezel (no dirty thoughts please) .....

Now I'm sure that many owners of Omegas, Rolexes or other brands have similar thoughts of their watches and that's exactly the point: you buy what you like and what resonates with you. To my eyes my MM300 is a much more beautiful and interesting watch than an Omega PO (Rolex is out of budget  ) but the next person might love that dash of red on the seconds hand or the possibility of an orange bezel, etc.

Since were on brands already, please stop the bs with "I don't care about the brand, that's why I buy a Seiko". By saying that you state that you clearly prefer the Seiko brand. Seiko is just as much a watch brand as Sinn, Tag or Zenith. It might be famous for different reasons but it's high time that it gets treated the same way as other brands by its owners and followers.

Now some people complain that the GS line doesn't have a modern design or that it's stale or whatnot, mostly because it hasn't changed much in several decades. For one thing, that would make a Rolex, a Reverso and pretty much any Flieger watch stale ... which they're not. When one looks at the evolution of GS watch design one can see how pretty much all changes were made in order to achieve the goal of creating "the best every day watch". The bashing of this approach is simply wrong and shows that one probably doesn't share the values that Seiko puts into making the GS line, meaning that the watch wouldn't be the right fit anyway ... so move along  . It's exactly those things that make a GS interesting for many people and I'm quite happy to think that Seiko likes it this way as well.

One final thing regarding the perception of GS watches. Since Seiko started to offer the GS line in Europe and the Americas the company never launched any big advertisement campaigns (to my knowledge). Instead there is a network of selected dealers and a variety of road shows in which people interested in watches get to know more about Seiko. I say Seiko because I believe an introduction to Seiko as a whole is just as important as an introduction to the Grand Seiko range.

I think this approach is brilliant. For one thing it's reasonably cheap. More importantly though it ensures that Seiko retains control on how the watches are being sold and marketed. Since Seiko maintains a hold on these issues they can control where they want the GS brand to go in the market ... do they want to keep it as a "sleeper" for those people that have been "initiated" or do they want to go for more mass appeal?

There have been many comparisons between Lexus and Seiko sharing many issues that have been mentioned in previous posts. To close my ramblings: I disagree with this comparison. Lexus is a different brand of Toyota, which is not comparable at all to the standings of the GS line within Seiko. Having said that, here's a comparison that fits better (imho): the GS line is to Seiko what the GTR is to Nissan. Think about it: the GTR sports a Nissan badge, not one from Infiniti, and it represents the top of the range for Nissan. At the same time it wipes the floor with anything Porsche had to offer at the launch of the GTR and still does so with most of their offerings. Depending on your brand preference with watches Porsche can represent many watches.

Last but not least, Nissan has had an enormous success with the GTR, not because there have been large marketing campaigns but because they sold it as the underdog to people who appreciate its technology and performance. Seiko does the same with the GS line, which I believe is the best way to sell these watches and maintain the mystique that they undoubtedly have.

Now ... the red wine made me write more than I intended ... oh well ... another glass, another thread.


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## Manuel Garcia O'Kely (May 2, 2011)

I don't get why Seiko has to be defended for making less expensive watches - many watchmakers have lower price brands - Seiko's big mistake was using the same name for watches as diverse in price as the Seiko 5 and the Spring Drives, if you really want to come down to it.

Seiko has a history and heritage as rich as any watch company and they have a history of real innovations in timekeeping, all of which seem to be headed towards the greatest possible accuracy.

I would suggest that buying a Grand Seiko is more akin to buying a low volume bespoke car that no one has ever heard of because you like it, rather than the Porsche or Corvette that comes with the average mid life crisis...<grin>

And I don't really want to bash Rolex, but I'm curious to know what you think a Sub would cost if it were hand assembled the way the GS is? For one thing, you can imagine that Rolex would not be making a million watches a year if that were the case - there are not that many watchmakers in the world.


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## krayzie (Apr 21, 2007)

I love watch / car comparisons 

Grand Seiko to me will always be the old Honda NSX (yes the car that Senna had a hand tuning it, in which Gordon Murray based his Mclaren F1 on); low volume production run, created quite a stir in the industry when initially released sending many prestige European makers (if you can imagine Rolex being Ferrari) back to the drawing board to create better offerings, built a specialized factory using handpicked individuals from the company for its assembly line, innovative materials and construction techniques (aluminum body and suspension, titanium con rods) with the best engineering and quality the company had to offer, yet branded with a badge synonymous with mass produced affordability. No marketing gimmicks or technological trickery, never claimed to be the best in the world (it was not even faster than a Skyline GTR), just perfect harmony of man and machine made for the purist. But it's just a Honda?!


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## yory88 (Jan 17, 2012)

We may have lot of expensive watch but iam sure, the most precious watch that have a true memory of our own life is the simple one or maybe the cheapest one with quality

Watch that i bring everywhere is an old SEIKO 5 6309-8040.....hehehe... What about yours... its just seiko and citizen forum, so show ur watch here....


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## myke (Jan 19, 2012)

you got it right just fly under the radar and enjoy that lovely watch everyday. The spring drive movement is as good as any swiss movement. the accuracy and silky second hand are hipnotic


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## Doom (Apr 18, 2012)

debito said:


> You must have known this would happen, right? When you buy a GS, you are accepting that nearly everyone will vastly underrate your watch. That's part of the mystique of the GS. It's one of the finest timepieces in the world, but few people know that. I think you need to totally reorient your thinking about this. Instead of getting upset when people dismiss your watch, you ought to get a thrill from it. If only they knew...
> 
> I would say, "Yep, it's a Grand Seiko" and smile to yourself.


I remember similar rationalizations in a Miata forum. Not really picking on anyone, just had a flash déjà vu.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

My thread will never die! LoL


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## astral (Mar 28, 2012)

We all know seiko makes great watches. They also make very high end time pieces which are on par (price and build) and possibly better then many other high end movements (spring drive.) But we all know, Seiko is not thought of to the masses as a prestigious watch company. For a company like Rolex to achieve their high status is something every company strives for- brand recognition. Mercedes Benz is running ads for the us open tennis "only the best."

Toyota had to create Lexus for this reason of 'ignorance.' not everyone will be well informed, and you can't blame them either. You can only blame seiko for not making everyone think that theyre just as good as Rolex.

At the end of the day, it's just a Rolex.


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## pz93c (Sep 29, 2007)

I've never heard "it's just a seiko".

Of course, my DateJust didn't get much attention either.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

pz93c said:


> I've never heard "it's just a seiko".
> 
> Of course, my DateJust didn't get much attention either.


Therein lies the fallacy of buying prestige watches...the large majority of folks just don't care and wouldn't recognise what you are wearing; even if you wave your wrist around and tell them how much money you spent on it :-(


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Just noticed this thread today, but it's so relevant as I've already heard that about my Shogun. Folks think it's just another $200+/- Seiko. :-d


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## CheapThrills (May 16, 2012)

In here "an average Joe" would prefer a generic Seiko much higher than a "fashion watch" or any brand he is not sure of.
Rolex etc. is generally preferred as a sign of snobism or such. Watch culture is still very weak in here.

I would very much like a GS before a Rolex, even though I like rolexes way of keeping old models available.


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## jackruff (Jul 29, 2012)

Well I'll chip in seems there are to be numerous references to Rolex..... I recently bought a Rolex DJ11 black face with a smooth bezel (to add to my numerous collection of SEIKO)... had numerous comments with a theme that goes something like this.... "Doesn't look like a Rolex looks just like any other $100 seiko" - And your point is.........????? To echo some of our more enlightened punters - 99.9% percent of people don't look at your wrist or give a crap or know what your wearing. I buy watches because I like them and have a preference for significant history which both seiko and rolex have. I don't wear a watch to evoke a reaction in others.......If you want 99.9 % of humanity to notice you and your watch get a t-shirt with an arrow pointing to your wrist !!! It' just a seiko - awesome....... and that GS is awesome!! Now thats going to get my attention.......................Recently the MM300 has my serious attention...........mmmmm......Just like a grand seiko without the badge!!!


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## johant (Jun 12, 2011)

With Seiko working its way up into the luxury market, the saying "it's just a Seiko" may be gone in the not too distant future ... maybe taking the ridiculously good price/quality rating with it too.


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## mocapitane (Jul 24, 2011)

I think i've heard is that a fake Rolex more than it's just a seiko.


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 29, 2011)

pbubsy said:


> I've tried to keep myself down to just one or two watches but it seems variety is the spice of life! I'll wear an my Seamaster Chrono or my PAM one day and a Monster or a G-Shock the next. Nice to have choices! Price doesn't really factor.....I still get excited by my entry level Seiko autos. There's a lot to be appreciated in the offerings by the many mfgr's/watchmakers out there.
> .


+1,000 
:-!


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## SunnyChrono6 (Jun 25, 2012)

It beats talking about how your citizen bullhead has a good movement and getting a reply of "Japanese quality is sh**" coming from a guy who owns a fake rado quartz


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## taskitan (Dec 13, 2010)

Hoppyjr said:


> Just noticed this thread today, but it's so relevant as I've already heard that about my Shogun. Folks think it's just another $200+/- Seiko. :-d


Hopefully I'll get to share that misery when I eventually get to strap one of those SBDC007s on my wrist!


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## James T. Kirk© (Aug 20, 2012)

CheapThrills said:


> In here "an average Joe" would prefer a generic Seiko much higher than a "fashion watch" or any brand he is not sure of.
> Rolex etc. is generally preferred as a sign of snobism or such. Watch culture is still very weak in here.
> 
> I would very much like a GS before a Rolex, even though I like rolexes way of keeping old models available.


Same here in Holland, Seiko is in high respect, even from people who don't know much about watches. It would be the same, saying, "It's just a Honda" meanwhile forgetting it's one of the best engine makers in the world. I just love Japanese quality! b-)


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## berni29 (Sep 8, 2007)

Hi

I used to wear a 2006 Rolex GMT II on a jubilee strap with the cyclops removed. I am sure anyone who knew Rolexes must have thought at first glance it was a fake. And also probably those who no next to nothing about Rolexes but expect to always see a cyclops. I recently traded it for a GS SBGE001 which I much prefer. The chinese guy who sits next to me noticed the change and thinks I am nuts. I know different of course. Having said that, Rolexes are pretty much convertible into cash, you can get them serviced anywhere and the customer service is far superior (from my limited experience).

Berni


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## Enoslives5 (May 16, 2012)

lorsban said:


> I have an SNK Seiko 5 and since I swapped out the bracelet to an oyster type with polished center links (from an old Seiko chrono), it now looks a lot like a Rolex Datejust with a domed bezel. When my friends see it, they can't believe it's "just a Seiko." They get even more flabbergasted when I tell them how much I got it for. lol


Would you mind uploading a pic of your Seiko 5? I'd love to see!


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm truly amazed how my thread keeps coming back to life! Also interesting how Rolex seems to be the benchmark for comparing quality and public recognition... LoL!


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## Humanloop (Jul 13, 2012)

I just got into watches about two years ago. Had no idea about seiko. Did a lot of research. I now have three, love them, got a bunch of people I work with to buy themselves one, and one of my grail watches is a spring drive. Nothing against Rolex, or any other brand. I hope to have a sub one day, but I'll strive for the spring drive first. I think the spring drive is a more unique watch.


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Humanloop said:


> I just got into watches about two years ago. Had no idea about seiko. Did a lot of research. I now have three, love them, got a bunch of people I work with to buy themselves one, and one of my grail watches is a spring drive. Nothing against Rolex, or any other brand. I hope to have a sub one day, but I'll strive for the spring drive first. I think the spring drive is a more unique watch.


I have a Rolex Sub (F series) and a GS SBGA029 in my collection. The GS is so much more watch, just awesome. The crazy smooth seconds sweep is just mesmerizing. BUT it is still nice to strap on the Rolex every now and then as well, they are great watches in their own right, and yes they can be serviced so much more cheaply and readily (replacement parts are much cheaper too).


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

Enoslives5 said:


> Would you mind uploading a pic of your Seiko 5? I'd love to see!


Sorry, just saw this now...Anyway, here's my Seiko5:










Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jmloyman (Sep 17, 2012)

Nice! seiko!  !


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## rf1152 (Jul 11, 2012)

canteaus said:


> This is one of the reason I will NEVER buy a rolex.
> I don't want to be associated with people who know nothing about watches and think that Rolex is the best.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Rolex watches are awesome! The company makes watches with great history/build quality/classic looks... but when you see someone on the street wearing rolex, there is a 50/50 chance that he is clueless about watches...unfortunately, this is often the same case with people who wear cheap Seiko watches -_-


But, let's not forget the Seiko 5's and the SKX007/009  Most people that wear them aren't clueless about watches (at least where I live).


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## krayzie (Apr 21, 2007)

No gangnam style here just pure class!!!


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## SOG (Jun 28, 2012)

I don't know what to day, but I think it happen very often nowadays, and you can't complain... not that many people have the knowledge to watches, cars, knives, woman, diamonds... etc.

Usually i will tell them the difference, but I must agree that advertisement does in fact blind a lot of people's judgement ... 
I don't own any Seiko, but that watch you have does look very nice indeed! 

(I have heard about spring drive, let me read more about it online later today)


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## Bigjamesdean (Mar 11, 2009)

swiss ghost said:


> unfortunately some people feel the way you do and its just not true in a lot of cases. some people actually buy rolex because of the history and the quality.


Not sure I agree with this. I would say 95% of the people buying Rolex's are buying them for a perceived status. My father n law has 5, pretty sure he bought em all for aformentioned reason and thinks 
they are crap and usually wear's a Gshock. He has one solid gold presidential that runs well and gives him no issues the other 4 is has spent an obscene amount of money repairing and none run worth a 
crap. I may like the look of the Sub but I would never buy one. Also my local watch guy is a swiss trained Master Service guy< forget who he trained with their but the guy is known as one of the finest 
watchmakers in the world, he does like 1-2 watches a year and they sell for over 500k ea> Anyway he says all the new Rolex's are junk and he's the guy Rolex goes to when they get something they can
not fix.

I would by a dozen GS before accepting a Rolex for free.....


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## jackruff (Jul 29, 2012)

> I would by a dozen GS before accepting a Rolex for free.....


I'll take the free Rolex..............


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## Doom (Apr 18, 2012)

jackruff said:


> I'll take the free Rolex..............


Oh no sir, I hate free things. It's much better to spend thousands of dollars than to receive it.

Silly man.


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## jDrexler (Dec 15, 2011)

jackruff said:


> I'll take the free Rolex..............


and sell it to buy some Seikos


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## Brendan12 (Mar 18, 2012)

jDrexler said:


> and sell it to buy some Seikos


I'd donate the Rolex to charity.


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## johant (Jun 12, 2011)

Brendan12 said:


> I'd donate the Rolex to charity.


Why? I really like the Seiko brand, but Rolex makes fine watches ... even if you might not like their marketing, the instruments themselves are well made.


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## Cool Hand Hodge (Oct 10, 2012)

Aerofish said:


> Personally, I would rather put up with "Its just a Seiko" than "Is it real?" Both great watches/marques have their own set of irksome comments. The bottom line is its on _your _wrist


You are not kidding! I have a Rolex yacht master and every time i wear the damn thing out of the house i hear "is it real" at least 5 times! It gets old real fast! I finally started to say to people..."if you cant tell it doesn't matter does it."

Seiko is my favorite watch maker to be sure. They actually got me into collecting watches. I never had the attitude that it was "just a seiko". For me, Seiko was the brand that was kind of expensive at the jewelry store. Their watches are commonly priced between $200 and $3000 dollars around me...and that's not cheep in my view. I remember as a kid that Seiko watches were not only expensive, but they made many different styles and i never heard a bad thing about their quality.


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## Cool Hand Hodge (Oct 10, 2012)

berni29 said:


> Hi
> 
> Having said that, Rolexes are pretty much convertible into cash, you can get them serviced anywhere and the customer service is far superior (from my limited experience).
> 
> Berni


This was perhaps more true 50 years ago than now. With the advent of decent fakes and the market place to sell them (internet/far east), most people assume they are fake and are very hesitant to buy them. I know Rolex watches pretty well and have been fairly surprised by the quality of some of the fakes i have seen around. Some are equally as bad its true, but as an example of the market for fakes, a friend of mine recently purchased a fake Sub online from a website in Ru openly selling fake luxury watches. I doubt anyone would be able to out the watch as a fake without taking the back off...its that good.


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## Chuck911 (Jul 29, 2012)

I just got my first Seiko, the Limited Edition SBGA071 last week. My favorite so far- and you are not going to believe this but it happened!- was when this guy at work wanted to see my new watch, I held it right up in front of his face, he looks at it real good and says (are you ready?), "WOW! Is it a ROLEX?!?!"


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

LOL! Better get used to it...



Chuck911 said:


> I just got my first Seiko, the Limited Edition SBGA071 last week. My favorite so far- and you are not going to believe this but it happened!- was when this guy at work wanted to see my new watch, I held it right up in front of his face, he looks at it real good and says (are you ready?), "WOW! Is it a ROLEX?!?!"


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## freight dog (Nov 22, 2011)

I am also in the camp of those who would rather educate people than make excuses. I am happy to tell the unwashed masses that buying a Rolex is, IMO, a waste of money because there are many many similar or better quality watches available for a fraction of the money. Do I want to spend several times as much paying for Rolex or Omega advertising or get a similar quality watch for a lot less money? I relish telling them they should learn more about watches.


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## Toothbras (Apr 19, 2010)

freight dog said:


> I am also in the camp of those who would rather educate people than make excuses. I am happy to tell the unwashed masses that buying a Rolex is, IMO, a waste of money because there are many many similar or better quality watches available for a fraction of the money. Do I want to spend several times as much paying for Rolex or Omega advertising or get a similar quality watch for a lot less money? I relish telling them they should learn more about watches.


That's exactly what it is.... your opinion. I know quite a bit about watches, and own several Omegas. What kind of car do you drive? I'm guessing part of what you paid was for advertising. What was the last restaurant you ate at? You probably went there because they advertise. I would love to meet you and hear you "relish" telling me I should learn more about watches simply because I'm wearing an Omega. Seriously, gimme a break dude.


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## Laso1 (Oct 10, 2012)

On the bright side I don't have to worry about being mugged for my Spring Drive, after all "It's just a seiko".


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## Flurrpy (Dec 12, 2011)

The OP is the reason I would never drop that kind of dough on a Seiko, "Grand" or otherwise. In my opinion, there's nothing a >$500 watch can do that a <$500 one can't. So if you're spending that amount of money, you're buying the name. And if nobody knows the name, then your money is wasted. If you're just buying it "for yourself" then fine, but I don't really believe that either, because then the OP wouldn't have even bothered to make this thread.

Just like Honda gave its luxury cars a wholly different name (Acura) and Toyota did as well (Lexus), I believe that Seiko will have to give its "Grand" line a wholly different name if it ever wants them to sell like Rollies or Omegas.


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## complicated_ (Nov 11, 2012)

Flurrpy said:


> The OP is the reason I would never drop that kind of dough on a Seiko, "Grand" or otherwise. In my opinion, there's nothing a >$500 watch can do that a <$500 one can't. So if you're spending that amount of money, you're buying the name. And if nobody knows the name, then your money is wasted. If you're just buying it "for yourself" then fine, but I don't really believe that either, because then the OP wouldn't have even bothered to make this thread.
> 
> Just like Honda gave its luxury cars a wholly different name (Acura) and Toyota did as well (Lexus), I believe that Seiko will have to give its "Grand" line a wholly different name if it ever wants them to sell like Rollies or Omegas.


Seiko have another level higher than Grand Seiko. It's called Credor.

You make some valid points regarding the recognition factor but I would not go as far as saying that your money is wasted. I am, as many of you are watch enthusiasts. As much as it is nice to wear an Omega or a Rolex, and receive compliments from people who are not watch-heads, I would much rather receive compliments from a fellow watchie. If I saw someone with a Rolex Submariner, I doubt I would strike up a conversation. If I saw someone with a GS, I would definetely compliment them. Here is a bit of a repost regarding my struggle with deciding between a Seiko Ananta and a Tag Cal 16:

"I had the same problem recently myself. I couldn't decide between the Seiko Ananta or a Tag Calibre16 day/date (please, no sniggering!  ). I totally loved the styling of the Seiko (I am a massive vintage 6138 fan) but the Seiko was date only. The Tag had the motorsport connection and also had day/date which I value. Also, I hate to admit, there was the recognition factor- Tag Heuer V Seiko but the stupid thing is, I could have gotten the Tag _cheaper_. At the end of the day, I pulled the trigger on the Seiko. Here's pics of it next to a friends Tag. I think I have about 6 friends who own a cal16 day/date. "

And no regrets, I love my Ananta. And btw, my wife does believe the Ananta only cost $500, and I'm fine with that. :-!


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## Nom de Forum (Oct 17, 2012)

I just finished reading every post in this thread. What a chore. Not something I would normally do but a recent significant event motivated me to do so. After much prior research, last week I beheld the Sleeper, I mean the Q-Ship, I mean the Wolf in Sheep's Clothing, I really mean the Grand Seiko Spring Drive SBGA011 "Snowflake". It was during a visit to Arizona Fine Time. My opinion as a former two time Rolex owner and current Breitling owner is that the Quality to Cost ratio of the "Snowflake" is incredibly better than Rolex. I am not so sure the value of the Grand Seiko is worth 3 times the cost of my Breitling.

I am a member of the "Babyboomer Generation". During my childhood phrases similar to "It's cheap made in Japan junk" were quite common and of course now are almost never heard. I think "it's just a seiko" could become just as rarely a heard comment if the American general public became aware of the Grand Seiko Spring Drive. Only Seiko can cause this to happen and right now I don't think they ever will. I don't think they care. I think they may prefer to take professional pride in slowly building a cult following among cognoscente. They can afford to because they make enough profit off sales of inexpensive watches. I can't believe I am thinking of giving up my Breitling Colt SuperQuartz to wear a Seiko! Maybe if I tell my wife I am selling my Breitling to buy a Seiko she will not ask questions because she'll assume it will be cheaper than the profit off the Breitling.:-d


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## Ephraim Gerstein (Oct 11, 2011)

I think GS rocks. Here's the GS I rock:

















Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

Last week one of supervisors was doing a yearly audit of my office. We are friends and I noticed he was wearing a Tag Heuer Carrera Calibre 16. He took it off and let me examine it, which I did for about 3 or 4 minutes and it was indeed a nice watch. I just happened to wearing my GS SBGA029, so I took it off and handed it to him. I told him it was a Grand Seiko and he just give it a very brief & casual look, no doubt seeing Seiko on the dial, and handed it back saying 'that's nice', just to humor me I guess. Little did he know that watch was a thousandfold more rare than his Tag and worth twice as much (probably hundredfold better made as well).


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## Chuck911 (Jul 29, 2012)

Too funny- I had almost exactly the same happen to me with a surgeon and his Tag. Only this one would probably be.... quick estimate... one hundred thousandfold more rare.... And I kinda secretly like that people don't really know what I've got...


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

I'd love a GS diver and wouldn't care what anyone thought. I've even considered trading my new Vintage Collection IWC Aquatimer for one 


Sent using Tapatalk


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## Chuck911 (Jul 29, 2012)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Just returned from the Mall, where for kicks went into every jewelry store. A very educational experience. Or dismal. Or hilarious. Depends on your point of view I guess. Couple places, when asked, told them I'm interested in something along the lines of this, and held out my wrist with my SBGA071 on it. "Oh. Seiko!" one chirped. At least she showed me their Rolex Sea Dweller. I was keen to see first hand how this $12k Swiss gold standard dive watch compares, and gotta say, the bracelet clasp is first class design and machining. Compared to my GS it looks unfinished, like the rest of the watch, buy really solid, and just a smidge thinner than my SD. And that's it. The best they can do for $12k is a good bracelet clasp? Because the rest of the watch- and I mean the ENTIRE rest of the watch- looks and feels like something GS apprentices might have done as a mock-up, and so didn't even bother to finish properly. Even the bezel, feels like they forgot to lube it or something. Chintzy. That beautiful and near impossible to scratch bezel insert? I sat them down side by side and the GS is so much more legible and finished looking, the Sea Dweller is much closer to TAG than GS. I'm not saying this to rag on Rolex or brag up GS, but to illustrate the point of this whole thread, the general level of ignorance of Grand Seiko. Because every single person in every store just totally assumes it is just Seiko, which to them means, I guess, Timex. Which I think we all totally expect from the average person. But these aren't your average person, they work in watch and jewelry stores. Yet even they don't know.

My prediction: Because GS watches are so evidently intrinsically superior to anything else made today, they will only increase in desirability over time. And because they are even today still sold only in very small numbers, then today's GS watches are very likely to be highly sought after in the years to come.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

It's funny, but even though I've wanted a Grand Seiko diver for a while I didn't really have high expectations for it. I suppose, even as a fan, I had a little bit of "just a Seiko" in my own mind. Well.....I had a chance to see the 031 & 071 in person yesterday and they were both amazing watches. As its been said before, the level of finishing and overall quality of craftsmanship is really something to behold. I will own one someday. 

This said, when I told my best buddy (he's a watch guy too) about how nice the GS pieces were, he said "yea pal, but its still a Seiko". I guess I'll need to take him with me to see them next time 




Sent using Tapatalk


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## Jaymo (Dec 5, 2012)

Japanese quality. What more can I say? Honestly, the Rolex Submariners I looked at didn't look or feel any better made than the Seiko divers, or the Orient Ray I have.
As much as I like (and would like to have) Rolex watches, I really prefer Japanese watches.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

I'll have to completely disagree with you as to the purpose of my original post. So to explain once again... anyone who actually reads my post and not just the title will realize I clearly don't have any issues with wearing a Seiko as I don't wear a watch for recognition but for my enjoyment. The title is purely "tongue in cheek" I do agree that if your purpose to wear a watch is strictly to tell the time then a $30 digital will suit you just fine but obviously WIS like us wear them for many other reasons as well... craftsmanship, history, brand admiration or a myriad of other personal reasons or else why would you or any of us be on this forum?



Flurrpy said:


> The OP is the reason I would never drop that kind of dough on a Seiko, "Grand" or otherwise. In my opinion, there's nothing a >$500 watch can do that a <$500 one can't. So if you're spending that amount of money, you're buying the name. And if nobody knows the name, then your money is wasted. If you're just buying it "for yourself" then fine, but I don't really believe that either, because then the OP wouldn't have even bothered to make this thread.
> 
> Just like Honda gave its luxury cars a wholly different name (Acura) and Toyota did as well (Lexus), I believe that Seiko will have to give its "Grand" line a wholly different name if it ever wants them to sell like Rollies or Omegas.


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Stunning LE Grand Seiko!


Chuck911 said:


> Too funny- I had almost exactly the same happen to me with a surgeon and his Tag. Only this one would probably be.... quick estimate... one hundred thousandfold more rare.... And I kinda secretly like that people don't really know what I've got...


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Ed,
You have to wear one and experience it on your wrist to truly appreciate a GS. Online pics and info will never convince a doubter :-!



Hoppyjr said:


> It's funny, but even though I've wanted a Grand Seiko diver for a while I didn't really have high expectations for it. I suppose, even as a fan, I had a little bit of "just a Seiko" in my own mind. Well.....I had a chance to see the 031 & 071 in person yesterday and they were both amazing watches. As its been said before, the level of finishing and overall quality of craftsmanship is really something to behold. I will own one someday.
> 
> This said, when I told my best buddy (he's a watch guy too) about how nice the GS pieces were, he said "yea pal, but its still a Seiko". I guess I'll need to take him with me to see them next time
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

That was my point too Ren. I liked them (and most all Seiko's) before seeing it, but I was going in with low expectations. When I tried on the 071 & 031 I was absolutely amazed. They are magnificent watches and I hope to own one soon. After years of owning many, many brands - including many Rolex, Panerai, and Omega - I've matured as a watch enthusiast and I value different qualities than when I started in the hobby. I still think Rolex makes great watches, but I'll own a Grand Seiko diver before I will own my next Rolex. 

Hope all is well up your way pal! 

Hoppy 


Sent using Tapatalk


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## sutherland (Aug 12, 2008)

I think there is some brilliant wit within the "it's just a seiko" phrase. There aren't many watchmakers that make their own movement and there is a sense of satisfaction in knowing that many Seiko watches have a complete and controlled identity. There is not enough time in the day to educate every person who inquires about your watch...the fact is:
- most believe if it says "Swiss" it has to be spectacular
- people believe designer "branded" watches are of high quality 

If people knew that Omega was made by Swatch (like Seiko, another Quartz/Acrylic Watch behemoth) perhaps it would change their mind...perhaps not. If people knew that the same magical Swiss ETA movement in their 4K watch is found in 200 dollar Shop.NBC Invictas, maybe they will start scouring the earth for in-house movements...then again, maybe not. 

I know that each time I wear a watch that has a rotating bezel, people will ask if it is a Rolex. Fellow Seiko, Omega, Longines, Oris, Breitling, Steinhart, etc. owners likely will experience the same. 

I love all my Seikos...own a few and plan to own more. To me...I find it easier to use the G-Shock model. You know...not too long ago, the Casio G-Shock was merely a Timex alternative. Two major variables (aside from design) improved the G's perception; Marketing and Exclusivity (all those limited/special runs). When people ask, I say "it's a really cool Seiko, available only in the Japan"...if you are pleased with your purchase and project it, people will typically meet it with similar enthusiasm. 

and...if you are in your 30s and work around 20/30 year old software developers (that love all things Japan)..."oh! Japan!"...sometimes if you are lucky, you will get a "why don't they sell these in the States?!?"...and we know that is a completely separate discussion.


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## Nodelicious (Jul 15, 2012)

Rolex and Grand Seiko build ultra high quality products.

Cool innovations by Rolex according to Wikipedia:

Among the company's innovations are:
The first waterproof wristwatch "Oyster", 1926
The first wristwatch with an automatically changing date on the dial (Rolex Datejust ref.4467, 1945)[6]
The first wristwatch case waterproof to 100 m (330 ft) (Rolex Oyster Perpetual Submariner ref.6204, 1953)
The first wristwatch to show two time zones at once (Rolex GMT Master ref.6542, 1954)
The first wristwatch with an automatically changing day and date on the dial (Rolex Day-Date, 1956)[12][better source needed]
The first watchmaker to earn chronometer certification for a wristwatch[5]
[edit]

Rolex's founder opened a foundation that supports meaningful causes - Rolex helps support this.

Seiko's movements and many of their watches are stunning examples of innovation, creativity and beauty. Spring Drive!

They're both great!


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

Very good my friend... Just recovering from new years LOL!



Hoppyjr said:


> That was my point too Ren. I liked them (and most all Seiko's) before seeing it, but I was going in with low expectations. When I tried on the 071 & 031 I was absolutely amazed. They are magnificent watches and I hope to own one soon. After years of owning many, many brands - including many Rolex, Panerai, and Omega - I've matured as a watch enthusiast and I value different qualities than when I started in the hobby. I still think Rolex makes great watches, but I'll own a Grand Seiko diver before I will own my next Rolex.
> 
> Hope all is well up your way pal!
> 
> ...


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## CFF (Apr 10, 2012)

my story is a bit different tho, once I had my SKX007 with shark mesh bracelet on, in a club and a guy walked by notice my wrist and told me, whoa, it's such a nice watch, and politely asks me if I knew Seikos are a lot of Billionare's choice, and I simply replied, yeah I know..

shark mesh and the SKX007 seemed to be a killer combo, I've always gets tons of compliments from people, and they can never get tired of it..


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

A friend/colleague of mine thought that my Sumo was rather nice but "in general he just doesn't like Japanese watches that much". From discussing I learned that he often doesn't like the styling (it is true that some chrono equipped Seikos have a rather "loud" design). And I have to agree with him that the bezel font on my Sumo would look better if it wasn't so very bold.
Argumenting about the technical quality wouldn't make him change his mind, it can be simply a matter of taste. He is not a watchaholic, but he craves a Panerai.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

MrDagon007 said:


> A friend/colleague of mine thought that my Sumo was rather nice but "in general he just doesn't like Japanese watches that much". From discussing I learned that he often doesn't like the styling (it is true that some chrono equipped Seikos have a rather "loud" design). And I have to agree with him that the bezel font on my Sumo would look better if it wasn't so very bold.
> Argumenting about the technical quality wouldn't make him change his mind, it can be simply a matter of taste. He is not a watchaholic, but he craves a Panerai.


He doesn't like the bold styling of the Sumo but lusts after a Panerai that is nothing but glaring points of boldness and bling??? He is after prestige and that is pretty obvious. No matter; nothing we do or say will sway those who have swallowed the Swiss marketing hook line and sinker.


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

Pawl_Buster said:


> He doesn't like the bold styling of the Sumo but lusts after a Panerai that is nothing but glaring points of boldness and bling??? He is after prestige and that is pretty obvious. No matter; nothing we do or say will sway those who have swallowed the Swiss marketing hook line and sinker.


Sorry, I was not precise enough. He did like the styling of my Sumo somewhat, but not the bold font used on the bezel. While I love my Sumo, I tend to agree with that observation, a thinner font on the bezel would have been more elegant.
No he isn't a prestige hound (I know him pretty well), but he does prefer a Panerai's simpler elegant design over the typical "technical" look of many Seiko watches. I can understand that. Another example, my girlfriend has a lovely Panerai (which she bought herself), and a Cartier, and a Lady Seiko that I gave her  , in short she likes her jewelry but isn't a snob either as she often prefers to wear a bright white fashionable Ice-Watch.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

The bezel insert can be easily changed on the Sumo. There are plenty of less bold options available. 


Sent using Tapatalk


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

MrDagon007 said:


> Sorry, I was not precise enough. He did like the styling of my Sumo somewhat, but not the bold font used on the bezel. While I love my Sumo, I tend to agree with that observation, a thinner font on the bezel would have been more elegant.
> No he isn't a prestige hound (I know him pretty well), but he does prefer a Panerai's simpler elegant design over the typical "technical" look of many Seiko watches. I can understand that. Another example, my girlfriend has a lovely Panerai (which she bought herself), and a Cartier, and a Lady Seiko that I gave her  , in short she likes her jewelry but isn't a snob either as she often prefers to wear a bright white fashionable Ice-Watch.


No problem; these are just folks lost in the fog of marketing; peer pressure and whatever strikes their fancy.
Although I still haven't figured out what is attractive about any Panerai design; authentic or Parsnipped ;-)


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

Pawl_Buster said:


> No problem; these are just folks lost in the fog of marketing; peer pressure and whatever strikes their fancy.
> Although I still haven't figured out what is attractive about any Panerai design; authentic or Parsnipped ;-)


Well, I don't think there is a problem with finding a Panerai pretty. It does not have to be based on peer pressure, marketing and what not. I like the design of most of them myself, already from when I first saw them some 20 years ago.
I probably wouldn't buy one if I were to spend that kind of money though.



Hoppyjr said:


> The bezel insert can be easily changed on the Sumo. There are plenty of less bold options available.


I must do some research in this matter. Is it easy to replace the bezel?
Otherwise my Sumo looks refined and is very nicely finished.


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## estrickland (Dec 31, 2012)

Just got my Snowflake this AM, and took it in to be sized.

After admiring the watch for a minute, the service guy noted that this is one of the latest releases and asked how much it cost.

When told, his response was: "You could have got a Rolex for that!" smh


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## Brendan12 (Mar 18, 2012)

estrickland said:


> Just got my Snowflake this AM, and took it in to be sized.
> 
> After admiring the watch for a minute, the service guy noted that this is one of the latest releases and asked how much it cost.
> 
> When told, his response was: "You could have got a Rolex for that!" smh


Before I got my MM300 I paid a trip to an Omega AD to check out prices (although I was already committed to getting the MM). Guy behind the counter tomd me that it would be a 'worry' to pay over $2k for a Seiko.

However, every watch technician I speak to waxes lyrical about JDM Seiko and GS.


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## ken_sturrock (Oct 24, 2010)

Brendan12 said:


> Guy behind the counter tomd me that it would be a 'worry' to pay over $2k for a Seiko.


Well, yeah, you talked to a sales-droid about something outside of its programming.


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## lordkifar (Apr 8, 2011)

It does get annoying that people judge watches strictly based on the name but frankly at the end of the day, it is better to be low key with "just a Seiko" then flashy with much bigger name brand....Seikos are great watches and when I met up with my friend and he showed me his two grand seikos and a Marinemaster, I almost peed my pants....I will own any of those on any given day over a lot of other "better" brands.


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## waldoh (Nov 20, 2011)

So I was talking to a coworker who happens to know I know a lot about watches.

He looks at my wrist and said "isn't seiko a ****ty brand like a mall watch, I am surprised you are wearing that".

I briefly tried to explain that it's a Grand Seiko and the quality but it wasn't the time to go into detail.

The only two brands he knows of are Rolex and Movado (which he ranks evenly, lol).


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## Torrid (May 20, 2007)

Wearing a Seiko always gets a "meh" from non watch people. It doesn't sound expensive so they don't care. It happened to me yesterday. My Tuna was getting all sorts of complements and once someone asked what it was the whole table lost interest. Saying Seiko sucked the air out of the room.


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## Eielson (Apr 25, 2013)

I had an interesting experience yesterday at lunch, was in line for a drink refill at Wendy's(they hide the soda fountain behind the counter). There was a man ahead of me doing the same and I noticed him trying to look at my watch. One quick glance at his wrist quickly identified his very nice and very new looking Submariner. To which I quickly and casually said nice watch. He beamed and said thank you, I like yours, what is it? My reply was its just a Seiko. He looked suprised but then responded that his Rolex didn't ever need a battery. I explained that mine was an Automatic as well. A nice conversation ensued, he liked the viewable window for the movement. He asked me how much mine cost and where I got it, So I explained the whole JDM market thing and told him it didnt cost over $125. He truly looked shocked and said thats about a quarter of the cost of my first service! It was a good experience.


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## Splinter Faction (Feb 23, 2013)

To a certain degree, this is a matter of personality types. Some of us love the idea of going "under the radar," wearing a watch that the general public will call "just a Seiko," and one person in a million will recognize. All "ranking" of one brand against another has both subjective and objective qualities, but if someone does not recognize the greatness of a GS, then they cannot profess to be a truly knowledgeable watch person. (Disclaimer: I can't afford a GS, but I dig them!)


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## Southpaw1925 (Feb 13, 2013)

It's funny bc when people randomly ask me what kind of watch I have, my response is always (and intentionally) "oh it's just a Seiko, nothing fancy." They always look dumbfounded and impressed to see a good quality looking well made watch. Then they respond with, "oh really? Wow that's really nice." A simple "thanks" from me and I'm on my way.

So to summarize, I don't care that people view Seiko's as noting fancy or whatever. In the end, I wear what I like and I've always been into "value" items. Plus I don't think I could wear an $8,000 watch. I'd be too nervous someone will mug me or too nervous that I'll mess it up. Plus 95% of the community don't care about what you wear. Period.


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## hiro1963 (Feb 4, 2008)

Even a little kid...


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## Torrid (May 20, 2007)

hiro1963 said:


> Even a little kid...


That kid is a ......... tool, IMO of course. I feel justified of course in making a statement based purely on nothing but my opinion simply because he can obviously do the same and post it in video format on YouTube.

At least the watch he was wearing had an in house movement. Oh wait..


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## Eielson (Apr 25, 2013)

hiro1963 said:


> Even a little kid...


Youth seeking popular approval, all he knows about the GS is what he looked at on google LOL, sad to see such discrimination from a young inexperienced child.

EDIT - I read his comments section, he has already changed his mind and is planning another video LOL.


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## hiro1963 (Feb 4, 2008)

Eielson said:


> Youth seeking popular approval, all he knows about the GS is what he looked at on google LOL, sad to see such discrimination from a young inexperienced child.
> 
> EDIT - I read his comments section, he has already changed his mind and is planning another video LOL.


What a riot. LOL.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

how does that kid have an Omega


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## kimnkk (Jan 11, 2008)

What a funny kid. I could barely make it through the end of that video and now i'm totally ashamed to of my Omegas since he so proudly rocks his while he knocks GS.

You know now that i think of it, that kid is probably _thecustomer_, our favourite troll from earlier in the thread.

Love the GS Snowflake. On a related note, i think part of the charm of GS is that it flies under most people's radars, only WIS would be in the know - a comment from a WIS means more than empty comments from randoms who comment on perceived value rather than actual quality.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

LOL!!!

This kid seems like a younger, more polite version of Archie Luxury - absolutely no clue about what he speaks, yet he has an opinion and an accent.... 

Hoppy




Sent using Tapatalk


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## waldoh (Nov 20, 2011)

Spoiled brat is spoiled. 

In other news, its very easy to criticize and mock Grand Seiko (as well as other brands) but when you strap one to your wrist it is a different story.


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## DJW GB (Jan 3, 2013)

Unbelievable :think: .Still that leaves more of those crappy grand Seiko's for us . I am saving my £700 now , I cannot wait. DW.:-!


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## jva59 (Jan 3, 2013)

In fairness he's only a kid, albeit one who seems to have absorbed some amazingly shallow attitudes awfully fast. I'd have hoped that someone developing an interest in our hobby at that age would have done so out of a love of craftsmanship, an interest in how mechanical things work, an appreciation for tradition and an eye for beauty, not unformed brand-snobbery.


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## Hale color (Aug 21, 2010)

That kid's attitude reminds me of some of the older people's reaction to the Beatles when they first came to America (I'm old enough to remember that!).


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## TimeZone.72 (Jan 9, 2013)

I've owned a couple of watches over the years, most are Swatch watches, with a G-shock for everyday use and a Sector watch that I bought for a few hundred dollars for wearing on special occasions back in the early 90s. I still have all of them though my Sector is now spoilt and there is no AD in my country to repair it. :-( 

Recently I've been doing some research cos I wanted to buy a good and "proper" watch instead of my usual G-shock and Swatches. Basically I wanted a watch that I can wear and grow old with......  So happened my cousin posted some pictures of his lastest Seiko watch acquisition on his Facebook. He has a Seiko which has been his daily wear for decades and his lastest acquisition sparked my interest in the Seiko brand cos I know that he is a person who always sniffs out good bargains, so there must be something about this brand that make him so loyal to it. So I decided to go check out the brand at my local AD but wasn't impress with most of the designs. Later when i walked pass the GSs section, I was like, What The ........... when I saw the prices and how plain looking most of them looked as compared to their swiss counterpart, my mind just went bonkers as to how any one in their right mind would wanna pay a few grands for it?!?! I've looked at quite a no. of swiss brands before checking out Seiko and Seiko at that time really pails in comparison. But I wanted to keep an open mind and not be prejudice about any brands and decided to do some research on Seiko, fuelled partly because I just couldn't accept that anyone would pay soooo much $$$ for a plain looking Jap watch.

This is when I stumbled onto this GREAT community here!! :-! After reading up and looking at the numerous photos, I've grown to appreciate and love the brand. I've even learned to appreciate the plain looking GSs.  To me the plain looking GSs are a reflection of the Jap people ~ modest, unassuming, excellence in whatever they do or in this case, excellence in craftsmanship and details. I can understand why that young lad in the video said the things he said cos i was once like that, but if he were to do a thorough research on the GSs or even the brand, eventually he will be a big Seiko fan like myself. Initially i had only wanted to buy 1 watch but thanks to this site, now i will be getting 2 by years end and who knows how many more a few years down the road. :-d

Oooh boy am i heading down the slippery road...... :rodekaart


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

Here's Grand Seiko just beating the likes of Panerai, JLC in 2012 in their category:

http://www.0024watchworld.com/watch...lection-2012/item/460-winning-watches-in-2012

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cornelius (Jul 8, 2008)

98% of the general population would rather wear a fake Rolex than a real Seiko. A sad state of affairs. No self respect nor subtlety at all.


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## ADFD1 (Jan 19, 2013)

I always view Seiko as a top quality product.

AD


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Cornelius said:


> 98% of the general population would rather wear a fake Rolex than a real Seiko. A sad state of affairs. No self respect nor subtlety at all.


That is pure marketing hype driven snobbery :-(


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

Too lazy to browse and read the whole thing.

If you hear someone saying "it's just a Seiko" ignore it, let the ignorant be ignorant.


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## hpowders (Apr 20, 2013)

Cornelius said:


> 98% of the general population would rather wear a fake Rolex than a real Seiko. A sad state of affairs. No self respect nor subtlety at all.


That is human nature, unfortunately and the only thing that will change it is if Seiko creates a new name for its "Grand Seiko" division, as its luxury watches and advertises them as such, the way Toyota did with Lexus.

Is there anybody out there who really wants to pay $4300 for a Grand Seiko Spring Drive with the name "SEIKO" emblazened across the top of the watch's face?

Americans care about status over everything, something Toyota brilliantly capitalized on! It's about time Seiko followed suit.


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## Torrid (May 20, 2007)

hpowders said:


> That is human nature, unfortunately and the only thing that will change it is if Seiko creates a new name for its "Grand Seiko" division, as its luxury watches and advertises them as such, the way Toyota did with Lexus.
> 
> Is there anybody out there who really wants to pay $4300 for a Grand Seiko Spring Drive with the name "SEIKO" emblazened across the top of the watch's face?
> 
> Americans care about status over everything, something Toyota brilliantly capitalized on! It's about time Seiko followed suit.


I would say that is mostly true. I'm definitely the exception to the rule as I'd prefer to wear a GS. You don't pay more than $800+ for a Seiko unless you really like Seiko.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

hpowders said:


> That is human nature, unfortunately and the only thing that will change it is if Seiko creates a new name for its "Grand Seiko" division, as its luxury watches and advertises them as such, the way Toyota did with Lexus.
> 
> Is there anybody out there who really wants to pay $4300 for a Grand Seiko Spring Drive with the name "SEIKO" emblazened across the top of the watch's face?
> 
> Americans care about status over everything, something Toyota brilliantly capitalized on! It's about time Seiko followed suit.


It's not just an American thing but a worldwide phenomenon. That's why seiko never sold GS outside Japan until just recently. And their watches are gaining popularity almost purely by word of mouth.

It's sad that media marketing has us believing that low cost = poor quality, when Seiko, Citizen, Casio and Orient have been giving us high quality watches at lower prices for decades.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Here's another eye-roller that Seiko folks get every day... 'hey i just bought my first seiko. can you tell me if it's real?' Like what is it about Seikos that people assume *every model* is faked? Is this how it used to be? I'm not so naive to think there are no fakes out there, of course there are, but why are people _buying the watch first_ *then* asking? =) Like do people think that the sellers that sell these 'fakes' racked up thousands of positive feedbacks because they were selling fake watches?

Because of this and my couple-plus years experience with Seiko, it's gotta be harder to find fakes than it is real watches. Like what I mean is, you'd have to go pretty far out of your way to find sketchier sites to buy from because most of the ones you can find with 10 minutes of research are totally and completely legit businesses selling real watches.


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## Jaded Albion (May 30, 2012)

This is actually one of the qualities I really like about Seiko; how completely underrated they are. It also shows just to what extent classism is an issue.

I'm a lower middle class girl, and I could have easily done what the insecure among me have done and gone out and bought a $40 Rolox, or even went for broke on a Tissot quartz so I could flash around the "swiss made" on the dial, but I've found I'm much happier, though, appreciating a watch for the tool it is (to me), and not getting hung up on someones ignorant preconceptions of me based on how blingy my watch is (I respect Rolex quite a bit and would have a Milgauss if I had the throwaway income, but I'd be afraid to wear it in public). If you're seriously shallow enough to overlook my character because of a watch, I have no use for you. So I kinda play that up; I wear an SNK601, far below the radar of even GS wearers, every day, just because it is such an understated piece of incredible durability.

That works the other way too. Shouldn't dismiss Rolex owners instantly, either.


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## Ottovonn (Dec 9, 2011)

Jaded Albion said:


> This is actually one of the qualities I really like about Seiko; how completely underrated they are. It also shows just to what extent classism is an issue.
> 
> I'm a lower middle class girl, and I could have easily done what the insecure among me have done and gone out and bought a $40 Rolox, or even went for broke on a Tissot quartz so I could flash around the "swiss made" on the dial, but I've found I'm much happier, though, appreciating a watch for the tool it is (to me), and not getting hung up on someones ignorant preconceptions of me based on how blingy my watch is (I respect Rolex quite a bit and would have a Milgauss if I had the throwaway income, but I'd be afraid to wear it in public). If you're seriously shallow enough to overlook my character because of a watch, I have no use for you. So I kinda play that up; I wear an SNK601, far below the radar of even GS wearers, every day, just because it is such an understated piece of incredible durability.
> 
> That works the other way too. Shouldn't dismiss Rolex owners instantly, either.


I have that same watch. Deceptively beautiful watch considering its price tag. Unfortunately, I lost one of its spring bars over a year ago. I was trying to fit a leather strap on it and haven't gotten around to getting new bars. It's also a wee too small for my preferences now (38-42mm).


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## bravoecho (Jan 1, 2009)

Here is my totally subjective 0.02$; although I like GS SBGA031 very much I don't think that paying around 7K is justifiable.

I agree that it has very good movement in it, very handsome design, case finish and Gr.5 Titanium is superb but perception to a Seiko is obvious. It's a brand that has never been considered in high-level league and going with again-yet-another Seiko brand (GS) cannot achieve it.

I think Sekio should have created completely different brand to avoid that concept. I'm sure if SBGA031 had came out with one of the "Big Names" on it,it could have captured a great market share in high-end diving watches category.

I find SBGA031 similar to Tudor Pelagos, everything is good except price & brand...


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## sutherland (Aug 12, 2008)

The "name" matters to you. There is nothing wrong with that. Everyone should wear what makes them happy, even if satisfaction is gained through the perception of others, the satisfaction is still valid.

To me owning Seiko is actually a huge plus because the brand resonates with me in a positive fashion. Here is a brand that has continued to invest in its name regardless of how it is currently perceived. I find value in a brand that doesn't attempt to "disguise" itself and has a sense of pride in where they are at and where they see themselves in the future.

Could they have created a separate brand? Absolutely. However, establishing a "brand" and investing the capital in ensuring the value of that brand is established and maintained is expensive. Ultimately, that comes to the cost of the consumer.

So let's say Seiko created another brand line (outside of Credor). Here is what would will happen, and it's not too different to the reactions that are heard/seen now:
- "it's not Swiss...I am not going to spend that kinda money on a Japanese watch" (many people would abbreviate "Japanese" to just the first 3 letters, but that is ignorant/derogatory as the POV of the statement above)

- "the brand was only established in 1960...OH I read on the forum it was developed by Seiko" (but Omega is owned by Swatch..but I guess they get the free pass while Seiko/GS gets lumped in with Toyota/Lexus analogy)



bravoecho said:


> Here is my totally subjective 0.02$; although I like GS SBGA031 very much I don't think that paying around 7K is justifiable.
> 
> I agree that it has very good movement in it, very handsome design, case finish and Gr.5 Titanium is superb but perception to a Seiko is obvious. It's a brand that has never been considered in high-level league and going with again-yet-another Seiko brand (GS) cannot achieve it.
> 
> ...


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## Splinter Faction (Feb 23, 2013)

Jaded Albion said:


> This is actually one of the qualities I really like about Seiko; how completely underrated they are. It also shows just to what extent classism is an issue.
> 
> I'm a lower middle class girl, and I could have easily done what the insecure among me have done and gone out and bought a $40 Rolox, or even went for broke on a Tissot quartz so I could flash around the "swiss made" on the dial, but I've found I'm much happier, though, appreciating a watch for the tool it is (to me), and not getting hung up on someones ignorant preconceptions of me based on how blingy my watch is (I respect Rolex quite a bit and would have a Milgauss if I had the throwaway income, but I'd be afraid to wear it in public). If you're seriously shallow enough to overlook my character because of a watch, I have no use for you. So I kinda play that up; I wear an SNK601, far below the radar of even GS wearers, every day, just because it is such an understated piece of incredible durability.
> 
> That works the other way too. Shouldn't dismiss Rolex owners instantly, either.


This post is so cool it isn't enough just to hit the Like button. Great statement.


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## CitizenM (Dec 9, 2009)

I drop by every once in awhile to reiterate what's actually going on with GS from a business perspective. 

I'll break it down to a few points for digestibility reasons. This is aimed at the rather large crowd of Seiko critics who claim Seiko needs to rebrand GS. 

1: Stop advising the #1 (or #2, depending on year) watchmaker in the world. Seiko is better than you are at this. They've done it for well over a century, substantially longer than say, Rolex, and they are also quite a bit more successful than Rolex, or Omega, or even the company that owns Omega. The brands following the advice of the naysayers are the ones making much less money.

2: Grand Seiko does not exist to make money by selling Grand Seiko watches. Grand Seiko is not Lexus. Don't get me wrong. Seiko makes money on every GS they sell; it's just not the primary goal of GS. Grand Seiko was founded about 50 years ago principally as a halo brand. It announced to the world: Look at us (Seiko). You had once considered us as inferior watches made for locals who had trouble acquiring your pieces from Europe or America. But we're here to compete, and to win. And it didn't take many years for GS to begin winning, and winning big. The fact was, Seiko had long been a competitor for European watches, but people didn't think of them that way. When GS dominated competitions in the late 60s, they had no choice but to revise their opinions. 

Thus, it's not just acceptable for GS to remain Grand Seiko, it is vital to the mission of the brand. It's not that Seiko pulls GS down--it's that Grand Seiko pulls Seiko up. Until you understand the point and importance of GS' history and original goal, you haven't a hope at understanding why the guys at Seiko keep things the way they do.

3: Seiko already does what you want. Credor watches don't advertise their Seiko heritage on the dial and many of their pieces are more expensive than Grand Seiko. 

4: Stop living your life in fear of what other people think of your financial success. Most of the millionaires I know wear a Casio or Timex. Caring about what others think about your income is so...impoverished. When you "make it" you won't care what they think. If you have to try, you haven't, and in which case, you probably ought not be spending as much as a GS costs in the first place. Put it somewhere with a better ROI.


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## MID (May 16, 2006)

I like your style, Jen.



Jaded Albion said:


> This is actually one of the qualities I really like about Seiko; how completely underrated they are. It also shows just to what extent classism is an issue.
> 
> I'm a lower middle class girl, and I could have easily done what the insecure among me have done and gone out and bought a $40 Rolox, or even went for broke on a Tissot quartz so I could flash around the "swiss made" on the dial, but I've found I'm much happier, though, appreciating a watch for the tool it is (to me), and not getting hung up on someones ignorant preconceptions of me based on how blingy my watch is (I respect Rolex quite a bit and would have a Milgauss if I had the throwaway income, but I'd be afraid to wear it in public). If you're seriously shallow enough to overlook my character because of a watch, I have no use for you. So I kinda play that up; I wear an SNK601, far below the radar of even GS wearers, every day, just because it is such an understated piece of incredible durability.
> 
> That works the other way too. Shouldn't dismiss Rolex owners instantly, either.


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## raze (Nov 28, 2010)

Brands like Seiko and Tudor are successful because not everyone is brand conscious. Its hard justifying spending money on a hobby and when I do I let my $ do the talking, and not what the perception of what others are. SEIKO is a fantastic company that offers something for everybody, but if you cant get past the stigma, then move on.


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

Grand Seiko is not similar to Tudor. Tudor is the value arm of a luxury brand. Grand Seiko is the luxury arm of a value brand. When I look at the Tudor pelagos I know I will inadvertently be disappointed. Not that it's not a good watch but it's built to disappoint. It is built from the go not to be as desirable as it can be. It will always be second rate as intended by its maker. The Grand Seiko on the other hand is produced solely for the purpose of extending the heritage of craftsmanship and technological prowess of its parent company. That's a huge difference! And that difference is all the more prominent because as it turns out, their best efforts are very very good indeed.


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

And by the way, to all the enlightened guys and gals on this thread, the next time you hear those words highlighted on this topic, please please do not respond with education. It seems to me that Grand Seiko has gotten a whole lot more popular of late by word of mouth alone. So much so there are a few models, like for example the the SBGE001, with a wait list of 3-4 months already! I'm not done with my collection yet so maybe more restraint on everyone's part is required!


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## Minimalist1972 (Jul 15, 2013)

Might explain some the of the marketing problems Seikos' been having. (I would love a SBGA071 [LE of SBGA029] or SBGE021 [LE of SBGE001].)

Salaryman Lifestyle Blamed For Failing Japanese Companies - japanCRUSH


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## Skitalets (Oct 22, 2008)

CitizenM said:


> 4: Stop living your life in fear of what other people think of your financial success. Most of the millionaires I know wear a Casio or Timex. Caring about what others think about your income is so...impoverished. When you "make it" you won't care what they think. If you have to try, you haven't, and in which case, you probably ought not be spending as much as a GS costs in the first place. Put it somewhere with a better ROI.


This. The wealthiest two people I know well (one with net worth in the tens of millions, the other in the hundreds) both wear G-Shocks. Every time someone spouts off about how Brand X is a "poor man's watch" or how they wouldn't be caught dead wearing some down market brand, I just laugh.

Judging a person's self-worth or perceived net worth based on their watch is absurd, and makes this enjoyable hobby into something it shouldn't be.


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## TGE (Apr 24, 2011)

CitizenM said:


> 2: Grand Seiko does not exist to make money by selling Grand Seiko watches. Grand Seiko is not Lexus. Don't get me wrong. Seiko makes money on every GS they sell; it's just not the primary goal of GS. Grand Seiko was founded about 50 years ago principally as a halo brand. It announced to the world: Look at us (Seiko). You had once considered us as inferior watches made for locals who had trouble acquiring your pieces from Europe or America. But we're here to compete, and to win. And it didn't take many years for GS to begin winning, and winning big. The fact was, Seiko had long been a competitor for European watches, but people didn't think of them that way. When GS dominated competitions in the late 60s, they had no choice but to revise their opinions.
> 
> 4: Stop living your life in fear of what other people think of your financial success. Most of the millionaires I know wear a Casio or Timex. Caring about what others think about your income is so...impoverished. When you "make it" you won't care what they think. If you have to try, you haven't, and in which case, you probably ought not be spending as much as a GS costs in the first place. Put it somewhere with a better ROI.


Well said as always, particularly points 2 and 4.

I believe we'll always find happiness sooner by appreciating what we have and striving towards self-improvement. If you hope someone else notices your watch (or car/house/toys) and thinks, "Gosh, he must have money, what a swell guy," you're allowing your own happiness to be held hostage by others.

Anyway, I guess I go to the other end of the spectrum - I love my MM300 and want a GS in small part because of the under-the-radar factor.


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## benpal (May 9, 2013)

He's right, it's just a Seiko. Here, let me take it off your hands (or wrist, as it were) :-d


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## Avro Arrow (Jul 17, 2013)

They may say that, but I'd love to hear them say that about this beastie when it arrives:


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## Sumgai (Feb 26, 2013)

This thread always brings a Mona Lisa smile to my face. Thank you to the original poster for being promethian.


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## bigbondjing (Jul 17, 2009)

Excellent post!


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## bigbondjing (Jul 17, 2009)

Seiko, are you listening???


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 29, 2011)

Got numerous compliments on my 007 none said "it's just a seiko" I think it comes down to the model


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## narcosynthesis (Dec 28, 2009)

Skitalets said:


> This. The wealthiest two people I know well (one with net worth in the tens of millions, the other in the hundreds) both wear G-Shocks. Every time someone spouts off about how Brand X is a "poor man's watch" or how they wouldn't be caught dead wearing some down market brand, I just laugh.
> 
> Judging a person's self-worth or perceived net worth based on their watch is absurd, and makes this enjoyable hobby into something it shouldn't be.


People put importance into whatever they are personally interested in - we may look at a watch as a hint of a new persons style/personality, others will base it on the car they drive, the clothes they wear, and the truly enlightened will ignore everything else and judge a person on their words and actions (since as mentioned, when the truly rich don't pay attention to status symbols, where does that leave the person trying to use those as a measure of that persons worth)?
How many millionaires wear Casios, and how many members here have relatively little worth with a disproportionate amount invested in timepieces?

That being said, I would consider the understated nature of Grand Seikos as a good thing - if you wear a Rolex then everyone knows how much you have spent on a watch, and to some degree it makes you a target. The GS on the other hand will fly under the radar, so you get the personal satisfaction of owning and wearing a superb quality piece, without any hassle or nonsense from others. I guess it comes down to whether you wear a watch to impress others, or to make yourself happy.


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## BrotherIron (Jul 4, 2010)

I agree with the posters who say... let them think Seiko is just a low budget/low end watch. I can wear it plain sight and not worry someone's going to pull a gun trying to rob me.


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## jayhall0315 (Nov 27, 2013)

I have been researching my first (and possibly only) high end diving watch buy and could afford a lower end genuine Rolex if I choose, but so far, my front runners are the Seiko MarineMaster 300, the MM 600 and the Grand Seiko Diver. One thing I do like about all these models is that the general North American public is not aware how nice a watch Seiko can manufacture. They fly under the radar and do their job nicely. Therefore, I am beginning to consider that, "It's only a Seiko", to be a large positive.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Kind of surprised that this thread gets resurrected every once in a while. Who cares what anyone else, but you or other Seiko owners, thinks about Seiko watches? Who cares? The fact of the matter is this - almost every watch brand has its naysayers from Rolex, to Omega, to Breitling, to Tag Heuer, to Fossil and Timex - to name a few. People who criticize Seiko don't know watches. Their snobbery blinds them. If they knew anything, really, about watches they would know that Seiko has as much of a history as most of the Swiss watch companies and produces watches that can stand toe to toe with any of the Swiss brands at a much more price conscious point. I don't know why but I have found that far too many Seiko owners have some sort of an inferiority complex where it regards their watches. Maybe it's time for Seiko owners to learn the history of the watch company and its rich relationship with international sports and high quality innovations and products. Again, Seiko stands toe to toe with any Swiss watch company in these comparisons.

My hope is that this thread dies a quick death never to be resurrected again.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

hpowders said:


> Americans care about status over everything, something Toyota brilliantly capitalized on! It's about time Seiko followed suit.


Toyota a status car? Huh?


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

timetellinnoob said:


> Toyota a status car? Huh?


He is referring to Lexus ;-)


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## khd (Jan 9, 2014)

The OP could always move over here to Australia... because even the basic Seiko 5 range retails at around the US$300-500 most people arpund here (non WIS types) think of Seiko as a reasonably expensive brand! 

That being said, they still probably wouldn't put them any where near Rolex, which I guess for most normal people is in the price category of "if you have to ask how much then you probably can't afford it". Still, heaps of "normal" people also think that the "best" watch is whichever one has the most diamonds stuck on the case, so who cares what they think anyway ;-)


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## lastshotkid (Sep 16, 2013)

I think it's really cool that the GS line is appreciated by only a handful of people. There was an article on Watchtime.com (Grand Seiko Watches Go Global: Exploring the Most Prestigious Seiko Watch | WATCHTIME.COM) describing how some prominent CEO's of established Swiss watch brands secretly crave for Grand Seiko's on their wrists. Declaring "Seiko makes the best mechanical watch in the world." This statement, although still very subjective, comes from what the mob or "watchknobs" consider as the only watch brand worthy of value.


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

To all Seiko owners:

Who are you wearing your watch for? Getting tied down by these ******** middle-class status anxieties is petty and pathetic. People who actually derive a sense of worth and purpose in their life - people who are respected by their friends, co-workers, and family - don't concern themselves with this nonsense. I'm proud to display my preference and loyalty to the world's most innovative manufacturer of watches, Seiko, and everyone who creams themselves over capricious fashion trends and manipulative advertising can get bent.


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## watchdaddy1 (Dec 2, 2009)

_ Not from me ..I appreciate a fine timepiece.Some don't get Seiko..
Either way CONGRATS on a BEAUUUTIFUL G/S 
BTW Screw the haters buy & wear what YOU like._


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## SeikoWatchfan72 (Apr 30, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> He is referring to Lexus ;-)


Lol I have had 2 lexus and 2 mercedes which most people would regard the mercedes to be better. I found quite the opposite both merc's gave trouble and both lexus's ran faultlessly. Both the lexus's seems better quality in every area also. Cheers


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I love it, and hate it, when this thread gets resurrected. I could care less what anyone thinks about my wrist watch. Here's a good indication of just what great watches Seikos are - half of my office (the ones who actually wear wrist watches), full of engineers and geologists (all with master's degrees), wear Seikos of various types and values. Most of us have more than one and purchase Seikos for our family members (my youngest daughter got a Seiko dress watch for Christmas and loves it). I don't need validation of my Seiko but, if I did, I would side with my engineer and scientist friends and co-workers before I sided with Joe Schmuck from the general populous.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Seikomasochist said:


> To all Seiko owners:
> 
> Who are you wearing your watch for? Getting tied down by these ******** middle-class status anxieties is petty and pathetic. People who actually derive a sense of worth and purpose in their life - people who are respected by their friends, co-workers, and family - don't concern themselves with this nonsense. I'm proud to display my preference and loyalty to the world's most innovative manufacturer of watches, Seiko, and everyone who creams themselves over capricious fashion trends and manipulative advertising can get bent.


To me it's not being worried that people won't think I'm cool because Seiko isn't the Ferrari of watches, it's that THEY think their Invicta (at worst) or Rolex (at best) IS the Ferrari of watches, and that Seiko is like gift shop crap. =)

So it's not something like 'middle class status anxieties' for me, it's people not understanding how Seiko is so much a better product than their Oakley/Nixon/Armani/stencil junk. They think theirs is 'better' when it's (usually) just a $500 fashion quartz. So what it is, is me having to deal with _their_ 'status anxieties' lol...

*edit: PS, this was all a snap comment. I'm the last person to be a watch snob. It honestly is just a reaction to the general frowning-upon of Seiko by many, due to inaccurate brand perception. It is a great watch. There are other great watches too. But most people don't care enough to be interested in what's on their wrist, also fine. But these are the same people looking down on a great product, it just irks a little. No I don't carry this around all the time, lol, it's just an addendum to my snap comment. =)


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## SchrodingersCat (Feb 10, 2014)

I'd like to echo everyone else who previously said it shouldn't matter what other people think. To me it's an added bonus that most people I encounter won't know the difference between the Sumo on my wrist and any other Seiko. The understated classic good looks and fantastic quality of the watch speaks for itself. It's a pleasure to wear, and that's all that matters to me.


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## kamonjj (Dec 26, 2012)

Well I have to say that when I was a kid I loved seikos because my dad did. My first auto was a seiko dress watch at 15 that I still have. Don't wear it but I still have it and it still runs. 

I started to learn more about watches a couple years ago. I quickly because a watch snob and bought a few omegas. Since then I have tried a bunch of micros etc. I recently just came full circle back to seiko and I couldn't be happier. I actually have been looking at seikos all day with an intent to buy them in the future. Which 10 months ago I wouldn't have. I hope that one day I can get a spring drive. I don't even want a rolex anymore. Nothing against them. I'd just much rather have a ti spring drive. Uber accurate. And I love ti! Go seiko. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

timetellinnoob said:


> To me it's not being worried that people won't think I'm cool because Seiko isn't the Ferrari of watches, it's that THEY think their Invicta (at worst) or Rolex (at best) IS the Ferrari of watches, and that Seiko is like gift shop crap. =)


But Rolex _is _the Ferrari of watches in terms of brand identity. First car that comes to mind when someone says high-end sports car is Ferrari. First luxury watch is Rolex. Very few people actually know what an Invicta is. Seiko is perceived as gift shop and cereal box crap because Seiko has a historically large presence in those markets. Americans associate brands with exclusivity, which is why we have luxury brands of the same company in this country. If the majority of Seiko watches are cheap, then the entire brand is perceived as cheap. I explained these differences more in length in this post.



> So it's not something like 'middle class status anxieties' for me, it's people not understanding how Seiko is so much a better product than their Oakley/Nixon/Armani/stencil junk.


That's hardly a problem unique to Seiko, or even unique to the watch industry. It's irrational to expect that people who aren't into watches to be more knowledgeable about a company which has a historically bottom-shelf presence in their market. I'm sure there are plenty of industries and hobbies that you're ignorant about and think the "bad" product is the "good" one, and vice versa.



> They think theirs is 'better' when it's (usually) just a $500 fashion quartz. So what it is, is me having to deal with _their_ 'status anxieties' lol...


True, but if you really cared about combating this, you would just save up for a pricey Swiss watch and be done with it.


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## justbecauseIcan (May 8, 2013)

stuart77 said:


> people that only know the names of the usual publicised luxury brand names, and nothing more than that about watches... i pity them.


I pity us...


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Seikomasochist said:


> But Rolex _is _the Ferrari of watches in terms of brand identity. First car that comes to mind when someone says high-end sports car is Ferrari. First luxury watch is Rolex. Very few people actually know what an Invicta is. Seiko is perceived as gift shop and cereal box crap because Seiko has a historically large presence in those markets. Americans associate brands with exclusivity, which is why we have luxury brands of the same company in this country. If the majority of Seiko watches are cheap, then the entire brand is perceived as cheap. I explained these differences more in length in this post.


But the people making these claims are people who think Nixon is a great watch. I don't care if some other poor fool like me thinks Rolex is awesome, he doesn't have one, he just think it's good because it's expensive. People equate quality with cost, they don't know there are better watches than Rolex for less $. All they know is 'Rolex is good because Rolex is expensive'. These aren't the people who actually buy them. A lot of people _do_ know what Invicta is and the people who I know who know Invicta see it as a 'quality luxury' brand. Talk about getting it backwards... _That's_ what frustrates me is people are too ignorant to see past the brand perception of Seiko and realize it's a quality product... I thought I said exactly that in my post?



> That's hardly a problem unique to Seiko, or even unique to the watch industry. *It's irrational to expect that people who aren't into watches to be more knowledgeable about a company which has a historically bottom-shelf presence in their market.* I'm sure there are plenty of industries and hobbies that you're ignorant about and think the "bad" product is the "good" one, and vice versa.


Again, I addessed exactly this when I said "But most people don't care enough to be interested in what's on their wrist, also fine."



> True, but if you really cared about combating this, you would just save up for a pricey Swiss watch and be done with it.


I... don't... care to combat this... I'm just minutely irked by it on occasion.... and I don't think buying the very product I'm speaking against helps my cause any... the thing I'm against is people automatically going 'ah, swiss, good watch!' without even having an inkling of what it even means and how swiss isn't automatically 'the best' there is just because it's swiss. These are the same people who invariable go 'japan watch? cheap junk!' I'm allowed to not respect uninformed opinions...


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

timetellinnoob said:


> But the people making these claims are people who think Nixon is a great watch. I don't care if some other poor fool like me thinks Rolex is awesome, he doesn't have one, he just think it's good because it's expensive. People equate quality with cost, they don't know there are better watches than Rolex for less $. All they know is 'Rolex is good because Rolex is expensive'. These aren't the people who actually buy them. A lot of people _do_ know what Invicta is and the people who I know who know Invicta see it as a 'quality luxury' brand. Talk about getting it backwards... _That's_ what frustrates me is people are too ignorant to see past the brand perception of Seiko and realize it's a quality product... I thought I said exactly that in my post?


But that's exactly what Invicta's marketing is banking on. They are literally aspiration-incarnate products for middle class people. You're angry at people for being susceptible to to the work of Edward Bernays?



> Again, I addessed exactly this when I said "But most people don't care enough to be interested in what's on their wrist, also fine."


So if you recognize that, then what's your beef?



> I... don't... care to combat this... I'm just minutely irked by it on occasion.... and I don't think buying the very product I'm speaking against helps my cause any...


Why are you speaking against Rolex? They make a great product. Are you suggesting that the only reason people buy Rolex products is because they're poseurs?



> the thing I'm against is people automatically going 'ah, swiss, good watch!' without even having an inkling of what it even means and how swiss isn't automatically 'the best' there is just because it's swiss. These are the same people who invariable go 'japan watch? cheap junk!' I'm allowed to not respect uninformed opinions...


"Ah, German, good car! Ah, Cuban, good cigar! Ah, French, good wine! Ah, New York, good pizza!"

What is so hard to understand about narrative fallacies? People have them about everything. I don't understand what you're irked about.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

timetellinnoob said:


> But the people making these claims are people who think Nixon is a great watch. I don't care if some other poor fool like me thinks Rolex is awesome, he doesn't have one, he just think it's good because it's expensive. People equate quality with cost, they don't know there are better watches than Rolex for less $. All they know is 'Rolex is good because Rolex is expensive'. These aren't the people who actually buy them. A lot of people _do_ know what Invicta is and the people who I know who know Invicta see it as a 'quality luxury' brand. Talk about getting it backwards... _That's_ what frustrates me is people are too ignorant to see past the brand perception of Seiko and realize it's a quality product... I thought I said exactly that in my post?


Why do you care what these people think? Why?

The absolute best watch I have that takes the least amount of care and/or attention, hands down, is my $60 Timex Ironman. Does that put it on par with Seiko, Tag Heuer, Breitling, Omega or Rolex? Nope. But, then again, I'm not ignorant enough to think it does. Ignorance doesn't mean you're stupid it just means you lack knowledge about a given subject. The subject in this case is watches. These people are ignorant and will remain so until they take it upon themselves, if they ever do, to learn more about watches. Some people are blissfully ignorant and think everything they have, regardless of its quality or price, is the absolute best. There is nothing you can do to combat that. You can talk to them and explain to them until you are blue in the face and they still will not get it.

Be happy with what you have and know that what you have is a great watch that you love/like. There are better watches out there and there are worse. Thank goodness we have choices and are not all locked into having to buy just one watch from one manufacturer.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Sigh, I think you guys are taking my answers too seriously. I don't carry this stuff around with me all day, I'm only posting it because I came across the topic.



Seikomasochist said:


> But that's exactly what Invicta's marketing is banking on. They are literally aspiration-incarnate products for middle class people. You're angry at people for being susceptible to to the work of Edward Bernays?


I'm not angry per se, but it's interesting to me that people buy such awful designs, and yet think of Seiko as the junk. It's not THAT big a deal though. I'm 10,000x's more likely to respect your opinion if you say 'hey check out my casio. Oh that's a Seiko? Neat I haven't seen many.' But if you say 'check out my Nixon, isn't it bad ass? I paid $300. Pssh, you have Seiko, pssh. What about Rolex? Those cost $15k!' Those are two completely different scenarios and one is the opinion of a complete douchenozzle.



> So if you recognize that, then what's your beef?


Again, I don't know how you aren't picking this up, but it's just _disappointing_ that people have such bad taste for bad items, and then dislike the items that are _actually_ well-designed, work better, are higher relative quality etc etc, probably for cheaper too, _all based on 'marketing hype' and lack of knowing how to use google_. It can't even BE combated. It's down to each individual but I certainly don't expect everyone who wears a watch to research Seiko. You are right that I've probably picked the inferior of a product at some point, but we all do and that's common, but when it comes to WATCHES, I'll actually speak on the subject. It doesn't matter to be if I buy the inferior soda or cereal, those are disposable. Watches aren't (not to me).



> Why are you speaking against Rolex? They make a great product. Are you suggesting that the only reason people buy Rolex products is because they're poseurs?


Kinda, almost, yes. I know that people who actually buy Rolex know what they are doing and what they are buying. Its the people not buying them who don't know why they are saying Rolex is the best. Rolex isn't *automatically* the best, just because it's ads say so. And that way of thought just irks me. That's not OK? For me not to like how people blindly following what they are told is the best? Same with any bandwagoner in sports. It OK to like a team, but if you jump on the bandwagon when they are winning I'm probably not going to respect you at the end of the season as much because of the way you only liked the team when they were good. You have to be there through thick and thin for it to mean anything.



> "Ah, German, good car! Ah, Cuban, good cigar! Ah, French, good wine! Ah, New York, good pizza!"
> What is so hard to understand about narrative fallacies? People have them about everything. I don't understand what you're irked about.


Because people don't take 1 hour to read the facts about how their $500 fashion quartz is junk, and not a superior watch to a fine Seiko auto, simply based on the fact the Seiko is less expensive and 'not as big a name'. I thought I made this clear like 50 times.



rosborn said:


> Why do you care what these people think? Why?


Because it's funny sometimes, but also, because I don't care and I laugh at them and feel bad. I don't have this conversation with these people, there's no way to without coming off like a jerk.



> The absolute best watch I have that takes the least amount of care and/or attention, hands down, is my $60 Timex Ironman. Does that put it on par with Seiko, Tag Heuer, Breitling, Omega or Rolex? Nope. But, then again, I'm not ignorant enough to think it does. Ignorance doesn't mean you're stupid it just means you lack knowledge about a given subject. The subject in this case is watches. These people are ignorant and will remain so until they take it upon themselves, if they ever do, to learn more about watches. Some people are blissfully ignorant and think everything they have, regardless of its quality or price, is the absolute best. There is nothing you can do to combat that. You can talk to them and explain to them until you are blue in the face and they still will not get it.


Agree, that's what I'm saying.



> Be happy with what you have and know that what you have is a great watch that you love/like. There are better watches out there and there are worse. Thank goodness we have choices and are not all locked into having to buy just one watch from one manufacturer.


And I agree again. I'm not sitting here twisted all out of shape because people don't like Seikos. I'm full aware I'm in the know and they aren't. All I ever said was it was unfortunate that people look down on Seiko _exactly because of their poor brand perception_, and don't realize how good they can be. It irks me, but I'm not on a crusade to fix it or anything. Because I know it'd never change. Its. Just. Unfortunate.

It's just like I'd like to have a conversation about watches with someone out there IRL who doesn't think Seiko is crap compared to THEIR crap. I want to show mine and feel good, not be spat on verbally for what I'm wearing. Ultimately I know it doesn't matter, I'm happy with what I have, no question. Just wish people knew more about it rather than dismissing it.

You guys would be 100% right if I dropped Seiko because of all this, because of 'being worried what people think'. Obviously that's not the scenario, and it never will be. What I'm worried about is what people _don't_ think. =) (I really don't, I'm just trying to say it funny though)


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

timetellinnoob,

Refer these people to WUS and tell them to stay away from ShopNBC (or whatever it's called nowadays) and World of Watches.

I realize that you're not carrying this around, like some kind of weight on your shoulders, but this isn't the first time this topic has been written about on this forum either. So, you aren't alone.

My first "real" watch was a Seiko quartz diver. I loved that watch but lost it while doing field work. I first saw it on the wrist of a co-worker and simply had to have one like it. Prior to that I had only owned various Timex Ironman watches because I am a geologist and work outside most of the time and really wanted a decent field watch that I wouldn't break my heart if it got destroyed. While looking for the watch that my co-worker owned I was introduced to the vast work of Seiko watches. Seiko, unlike most quality watch manufacturers, makes watches for every income. Of course, I'm not telling you anything new but it was a learning experience for me eight years ago. I bought that watch from an online AD. While at the website I "discovered" all of these other watch brands that could best be called affordable. I say all of this to show you that if I can take an interest in watches anyone can. Maybe these people will start looking at watches, learn about watches and come to the realization that what they have strapped to their wrist is "okay" but it "ain't" great.

Here's what you do. Forget about the IRL experience and spend more time on WUS. Helps keep you sane when discussing watches. Just don't get involved in the discussions concerning the Grand Seiko Spring Drive movement - those people are crazy.


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

timetellinnoob said:


> I'm not angry per se, but it's interesting to me that people buy such awful designs, and yet think of Seiko as the junk. It's not THAT big a deal though. I'm 10,000x's more likely to respect your opinion if you say 'hey check out my casio. Oh that's a Seiko? Neat I haven't seen many.' But if you say 'check out my Nixon, isn't it bad ass? I paid $300. Pssh, you have Seiko, pssh. What about Rolex? Those cost $15k!' Those are two completely different scenarios and one is the opinion of a complete douchenozzle.


OK, I don't see how that wouldn't be disgusting behavior even if that person were knowledgeable about watches or even if the topic had nothing to do with watches ("You get that sweater at Walmart?"). There's a ton of people on WUS who look down their inflated Swissy noses at Seiko. This just seems like rude behavior. Who cares what these kinds of people think?



> Again, I don't know how you aren't picking this up, but it's just _disappointing_ that people have such bad taste for bad items, and then dislike the items that are _actually_ well-designed, work better, are higher relative quality etc etc, probably for cheaper too, _all based on 'marketing hype' and lack of knowing how to use google_.


No ..... I don't know how you aren't picking up the concept that this is a totally ridiculous and sisyphusian thing to be frustrated about. It's not that people have poor taste - it's that they have _no _taste for this product. Unlike you, they aren't purchasing watches for the actual merits of the product. They are purchasing watches because the value of the product to them is in its perceived superior display of status or style. Aggressive marketing on behalf of these brands, combined with Seiko's historically low-end presence and lack of advertising (in the West), means that these consumers perceive the fashion brand stuff to be superior products, and for their desires, they actually are (until there is a great awakening for watch appreciation or something, like craft beer or coffee). You need to learn to individuate preferences and understand that maybe to these consumers, the Invicta product is superior to Seiko for what they desire in a watch.



> Kinda, almost, yes. I know that people who actually buy Rolex know what they are doing and what they are buying. Its the people not buying them who don't know why they are saying Rolex is the best. Rolex isn't *automatically* the best, just because it's ads say so.


Actually, Rolex *IS THE BEST *for the purposes that these consumers are buying them for (hint: that's why they're buying them). No brand has the wrist recognition that Rolex does. If you need to communicate to your peers or romantic interests that you have a good amount of disposable income and a conservative adherence to social aspirational norms, then a Rolex is the absolute best watch to do this. If this is your main reason to buy a watch - you're not interested in horology, craftsmanship, or timekeeping - then obviously Rolex is the best.



> And that way of thought just irks me. That's not OK? For me not to like how people blindly following what they are told is the best?


This is an entirely different conversation that I don't think is in the realm of discussion of WUS.



> Because people don't take 1 hour to read the facts about how their $500 fashion quartz is junk, and not a superior watch to a fine Seiko auto, simply based on the fact the Seiko is less expensive and 'not as big a name'. I thought I made this clear like 50 times.


You don't get it. The $500 fashion quartz could be superior to a Seiko based on the consumer's values. If that's frustrating to you... welcome to capitalism. I suppose we should all have the same preferences for products and all buy the same things?


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

rosborn said:


> timetellinnoob,
> 
> Refer these people to WUS and tell them to stay away from ShopNBC (or whatever it's called nowadays) and World of Watches.
> 
> ...


Similar experience for me of course. It's 2009/2010 I was just on Amazon looking for a new Casio (had been wearing Casios and Fossils and whatever else since I was a teenager). Saw the Casio MDV102 (is that the #? the $50 200m backlit LED watch), and after waffling between wanting it and cheaper Invicta Pro Divers, I went for it. I got one, I googled it, turns out it's a dive watch, lead me here, led me to searching amazon and google endlessly for Seikos and other affordables.

I spend plennnnty of time on here, it's what makes the IRL watch world so disappointing, lol! =)


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Seikomasochist said:


> OK, I don't see how that wouldn't be disgusting behavior even if that person were knowledgeable about watches or even if the topic had nothing to do with watches ("You get that sweater at Walmart?"). There's a ton of people on WUS who look down their inflated Swissy noses at Seiko. This just seems like rude behavior. Who cares what these kinds of people think?
> 
> No ..... I don't know how you aren't picking up the concept that this is a totally ridiculous and sisyphusian thing to be frustrated about. It's not that people have poor taste - it's that they have _no _taste for this product. Unlike you, they aren't purchasing watches for the actual merits of the product. They are purchasing watches because the value of the product to them is in its perceived superior display of status or style. Aggressive marketing on behalf of these brands, combined with Seiko's historically low-end presence and lack of advertising (in the West), means that these consumers perceive the fashion brand stuff to be superior products, and for their desires, they actually are (until there is a great awakening for watch appreciation or something, like craft beer or coffee). You need to learn to individuate preferences and understand that maybe to these consumers, the Invicta product is superior to Seiko for what they desire in a watch.
> 
> ...


We're on different wavelengths. I'm allowed to be fake-frustrated with whatever I want. I honestly don't take this very seriously at all.

Obviously people can buy whatever they want for whatever reason. Even if it's the wrong reason. It's all fine. I'm still allowed to dislike whatever those reasons are, however unreasonable that might be. I don't actually expect anyone to change their perception or what they wear because of my words. This is all pretty petty stuff anyway, I've very aware.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

timetellinnoob said:


> We're on different wavelengths. I'm allowed to be fake-frustrated with whatever I want. I honestly don't take this very seriously at all.
> 
> Obviously people can buy whatever they want for whatever reason. Even if it's the wrong reason. It's all fine. I'm still allowed to dislike whatever those reasons are, however unreasonable that might be. I don't actually expect anyone to change their perception or what they wear because of my words. This is all pretty petty stuff anyway, I've very aware.


Alright, dude, I'm out. This is really getting absurd.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

rosborn said:


> Alright, dude, I'm out. This is really getting absurd.


Haha, but _you _were the one I was agreeing with =)

Just trying to figure out what went wrong here. It's probably that I'm not doing a good job making my point. But there's certainly no reason for anyone to get upset here. I just didn't want to pick apart Seikomasochist's statements again with more long responses, sending us into another cycle of replies. I just chose to stop and call to claim that I don't get frustrated with this stuff enough to the point where I want to keep this particular argument going around and round in circles.

I'm sorry if I've been misunderstood, or aren't smart enough to convey my thoughts in an understandable manner. I didn't intend to bring _actual_ argument. I just didn't think saying 'i wish people were more aware that Seiko makes an actual good quality watch and _not_ a junk shop watch' would get that kind of response hahaha


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

timetellinnoob said:


> Haha, but _you _were the one I was agreeing with =)
> 
> Just trying to figure out what went wrong here. It's probably that I'm not doing a good job making my point. But there's certainly no reason for anyone to get upset here.


I'm not upset. I don't get upset at or with internet forums.

It's all good and I didn't quote your response for any particular reason. I just think this string has played itself out and there really isn't anything more that can be said.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

rosborn said:


> I'm not upset. I don't get upset at or with internet forums.
> 
> It's all good and I didn't quote your response for any particular reason. I just think this string has played itself out and there really isn't anything more that can be said.


That's all well and good, and best of luck. How it appeared though, was you quoted me and left a very dismissive response, so I went ahead and assumed you were dismissing me out of frustration. Didn't know how else to take that, lol


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## pepperami (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow, this thread/debate has rolled on for 3 years! Let me add by saying I love Seikos and my sig is is intended to be tongue in cheek 

Wearing a automatic seiko diver, here in Ireland, has got me comments such as 'the second hand sweeps' and 'that's a shiny new watch' 

I think its all about looking at your watch and admiring it, as only a watch lover can, regardless of its price, or brand, although I do love seikos


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Is there a Cliff's Notes version of this thread?


... horrible Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

timetellinnoob said:


> That's all well and good, and best of luck. How it appeared though, was you quoted me and left a very dismissive response, so I went ahead and assumed you were dismissing me out of frustration. Didn't know how else to take that, lol


Nah, I was trying to work on some electrical issues around the house and sat down and made a hasty reply.

If it were me, and I was dealing with the jackasses you're dealing with, I would tell them it's just a POS Seiko, smile and walk off. Let them think their Fossils and Nixons are the real deal and go on with your life. I personally get a real kick knowing that what I have is better and letting them think their is. Then again, I'm kinda like Gollum from the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings - I stare at my precious and hold my precious and, generally, obsess about my precious. You get the picture. I have a real thing for my watches and they are a hell of a lot more to me than an accessory. I know I'm not alone, here on WUS, in that sentiment.


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## P415B (Aug 4, 2012)

Great thread guys.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

P415B said:


> Great thread guys.


Really it isn't. It is actually a pathetic thread that I wish would go away for ever. No one ever need think "It's just a Seiko....." I have written this repeatedly and I stand by that sentiment.

Anyone know who the moderator is for the Seiko subforum? I would like him to lock this thread so that no one can ever contribute to it again.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

rosborn said:


> Really it isn't. It is actually a pathetic thread that I wish would go away for ever. No one ever need think "It's just a Seiko....." I have written this repeatedly and I stand by that sentiment.
> 
> Anyone know who the moderator is for the Seiko subforum? I would like him to lock this thread so that no one can ever contribute to it again.


Oops! Wrong forum...I was never here ;-)

The correct mods ...


2500M_Sub,
raggyboy,
Spring-Diver,
Athram


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Ask them yourself...soviet, Chascomm, gigfy or AlbertaTime


I was planning to. I just needed to know who it/they were.

Thanks Pawl.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Why wouldn't you just ignore the thread? Its like going to a protest you don't care about and going 'you don't need to protest this!' =)


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

Robotaz said:


> Is there a Cliff's Notes version of this thread?


Yes: 
_
American and European watch geeks are upset that Western consumers who are conditioned to respond to luxury-brand exclusivity do not have positive brand perceptions of Seiko, a historically bottom-shelf brand in Western markets:

"The philosophical and cultural differences between Japan and the West and Seiko's Western offerings/production/marketing are not to blame for this development, but rather the guy at the office with the fashion quartz is an ignorant poopy-head and these people need to have 'better' taste - and by that I mean my taste - so they can appreciate my Seiko watches and not hurt my feelings." - WUS
_


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Seikomasochist said:


> Yes:
> _
> American and European watch geeks are upset that Western consumers who are conditioned to respond to luxury-brand exclusivity do not have positive brand perceptions of Seiko, a historically bottom-shelf brand in Western markets:
> 
> ...


Love that touch of sarcasm!


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## laurelanthalasa (Feb 15, 2014)

Anyone who's actually laid out the ducats to purchase a Real GS knows that they are far from being Either "Cheap" or "Only a Seiko"!!!!!
Who do you think almost single-handedly nearly killed the high-end Swiss watch business almost overnight?
Yep...The innovators @ Seiko.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

laurelanthalasa said:


> Anyone who's actually laid out the ducats to purchase a Real GS knows that they are far from being Either "Cheap" or "Only a Seiko"!!!!!
> Who do you think almost single-handedly nearly killed the high-end Swiss watch business almost overnight?
> Yep...The innovators @ Seiko.


You are wasting your time trying to assuage the egos of those who heartily embrace the "It's only a Seiko" complex. I call it the Seiko inferiority complex. The person who suffers from it actually embraces the attitude that the watch strapped to their wrist is "only a Seiko" and is inclined to believe that they just don't measure up to even those who wear inexpensive quartz fashion watches.

Really?

It's time to man up and take the "I don't give a ****" attitude and stick it in their collective face.


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## Seikomasochist (Nov 10, 2013)

rosborn said:


> You are wasting your time trying to assuage the egos of those who heartily embrace the "It's only a Seiko" complex. I call it the Seiko inferiority complex. The person who suffers from it actually embraces the attitude that the watch strapped to their wrist is "only a Seiko" and is inclined to believe that they just don't measure up to even those who wear inexpensive quartz fashion watches.
> 
> Really?
> 
> It's time to man up and take the "I don't give a ****" attitude and stick it in their collective face.


Thank you. Seiko provides everything I want in a watch and I don't see any compelling reason to worry about what idiots think on the subject. Worrying about brand names and associated projections is an expression of weakness and insecurity. I can't take people seriously who complain about this issue, whichever side they're on.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

Seikomasochist said:


> Yes:
> _
> American and European watch geeks are upset that Western consumers who are conditioned to respond to luxury-brand exclusivity do not have positive brand perceptions of Seiko, a historically bottom-shelf brand in Western markets:
> 
> ...


Damn straight, lol. put quite eloquently as well...


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## GinGinD (Feb 29, 2008)

rosborn said:


> Really it isn't. It is actually a pathetic thread that I wish would go away for ever. No one ever need think "It's just a Seiko....." I have written this repeatedly and I stand by that sentiment.
> 
> Anyone know who the moderator is for the Seiko subforum? I would like him to lock this thread so that no one can ever contribute to it again.





Pawl_Buster said:


> Oops! Wrong forum...I was never here ;-)
> 
> The correct mods ...
> 
> ...


The regular forum moderators noted by member Pawl_Buster are listed at the bottom of the forum main page. In addition, Moderators at Large are authorized to moderate in this forum as backups to the forum mods on an as needed basis. They are as follows: *GinGinD* (me), *Stuffler Mike*, *Ray MacDonald*, *JohnF*, *OnTimeGabe*, *GaryF*, *tribe125*, and *CMSgtBo*. These eight moderators have full moderation rights in this subforum and every subforum on WUS in order to offer support to the regular forum mods.

Any of the twelve moderators mentioned can be contacted directly, or you can simply report offending posts/threads by clicking on the triangular icon with the exclamation point in the lower left of the post. That sends a report that is accessible to all moderators regardless of forum and the first available Seiko Citizen forum mod or MaL will respond. We prefer you to use the report button as it is more efficient, but we will respond to PM contact as well.

Jeannie
Moderator at Large


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## kingblackbolt (Jan 4, 2008)

I haven't checked this thread for ages but it never ceases to amaze me how much of an over reaction it brings out in some WIS... why would you possibly be offended by my thread? It was light hearted in intent and it's fascinating to me how it was taken in 100 different directions both positive and negative by collectors are passionate about Grand Seiko and needed to vent. I'm very interested to hear exactly why and how you are so offended by this and what makes you think you have the right to get it locked? Isn't this kind of thread what forums are for?



rosborn said:


> Really it isn't. It is actually a pathetic thread that I wish would go away for ever. No one ever need think "It's just a Seiko....." I have written this repeatedly and I stand by that sentiment.
> 
> Anyone know who the moderator is for the Seiko subforum? I would like him to lock this thread so that no one can ever contribute to it again.


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## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

The most funny thing is that people dislike or even hate it just because it has the wrong name/badge/country of origin. Just that. If you strip that off, it's in most cases superior to most Swiss high end brands/Swiss badged/Swiss origin watches. If you think about it, this just shows how stupid some people really are...

I'm experiencing the same nonsense on the automotive front. Hyundai and Kia brands. They still bash them based on their observations from 30 years ago when they made rather crap cars. But so did 3/4 of all manufacturers. Why is Ford or Volkswagen better just because they established their company 30 or 50 years earlier? It just means Hyundai is even better as a company since they reached the same level as others, but they needed like what, 30 years less? I actually find that rather amazing and worth of respect. And the same reason why i like both of the brands today. But people just see the badge and whine like little kids based on outdated facts that have no meaning today.

And the last thing, the way of thinking, the mentality in general is entirely different in Asia, especially Japan compared to Europe. And that is, at least for me very appealing, knowing they produce same quality time pieces, but aren't bound to all the "Swiss" precision/prestige snobbery nonsense.


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## lorsban (Nov 20, 2009)

Unfortunately, bashing will never stop. 

It makes some people feel better about their purchases by putting other products down. 

The smart thing to do would definitely be to just ignore it. But self-restraint is tough for those who can't even stop themselves from buying stuff they don't even need! haha


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## SchrodingersCat (Feb 10, 2014)

kingblackbolt said:


> I haven't checked this thread for ages but it never ceases to amaze me how much of an over reaction it brings out in some WIS... why would you possibly be offended by my thread? It was light hearted in intent and it's fascinating to me how it was taken in 100 different directions both positive and negative by collectors are passionate about Grand Seiko and needed to vent. I'm very interested to hear exactly why and how you are so offended by this and what makes you think you have the right to get it locked? Isn't this kind of thread what forums are for?


I'm glad to see this thread is alive and healthy once again. In the end it is _just a Seiko_, just as a Rolex is_ just a Rolex_, a Honda Civic is _just a Honda Civic_, and a Burrito is _delicious_. It's all just stuff, who cares.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

kingblackbolt said:


> I haven't checked this thread for ages but it never ceases to amaze me how much of an over reaction it brings out in some WIS... why would you possibly be offended by my thread? It was light hearted in intent and it's fascinating to me how it was taken in 100 different directions both positive and negative by collectors are passionate about Grand Seiko and needed to vent. I'm very interested to hear exactly why and how you are so offended by this and what makes you think you have the right to get it locked? Isn't this kind of thread what forums are for?


Never said I was offended. I detest whiners and people who give a crap what others think of their "stuff". If we only made purchase decisions based upon what other people thought we would only own Jaguars, Rolexes, iPhones, etc.. etc., etc. In other words, why in the hell should we bow, or even care, what other people think? Maybe the person criticizing your watch (car, cell phone, etc) is an idiot and doesn't know a damn thing about it or any product in that realm of consumerism.

To be personally offended by some idiots comment is one thing. To whine about it, ad nauseam, on an internet forum is quite another. There is an age old adage that has something to with making a mountain out of a molehill...

The generation of this thread, *unfortunately*, makes Seiko owners look insecure and base. *Fortunately*, many of the responses to this thread, and people I know on this forum, indicate the proper perspective of Seiko owners; namely, that most of them are well aware of Seiko's great horological history, innovation and fantastic product - at any price point.


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## E8ArmyDiver (Aug 7, 2009)

Personally I LOVE stating matter of factually to anyone who asks what kind of watch I'm wearing that "it's just a Seiko"!Stops any further conversation about the Fossil/Rolex/Omega they are probably wearing dead in it's tracks!


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

When People say things like that they are only displaying how little they know about watches,
I kind of like that my Seiko demand some knowlegde to know what you are looking at.


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## JPfeuffer (Aug 12, 2011)

Yes Mr. Mugger in a dark alley, please allow me to keep my watch. Its just a Seiko!


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## eskerbillion (Jan 26, 2009)

JPfeuffer said:


> Yes Mr. Mugger in a dark alley, please allow me to keep my watch. Its just a Seiko!
> View attachment 1473309


"Sweet! I can't probably get 20 bucks for it at the pawn shop." -Mr. Mugger


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## peacemaker885 (Dec 25, 2009)

Love this thread. Hope it lives forever.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

peacemaker885 said:


> Love this thread. Hope it lives forever.


for now, it gets life! haha.

thought i'd be able to find a 'has anyone ever complimented your Seiko' thread or something in that vein that i could bump, but this was the only one that seemed to fit the bill. anyway, why i bumped:

it rarely happens by name (i've gotten the occasional 'hey cool watch', but not often) but a customer at work said 'like the Seiko'. was wearing my SRP773 on tropic strap, i think i just said like 'hey, oh, thanks', mostly just because i wasn't expecting it (nor genuine compliments in general so i rarely know how to receive them). didn't really have time to chat on it but i might had if i could.

i don't remember the ups and downs this thread went through (i'll probably check) but it's enough for me to say an occasional 'hey, like the seiko' is plenty to drown out any sentiment of 'it's just a seiko' in the world.


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## RabiesVax (Aug 28, 2015)

The only compliment that I ever got from someone who (I believe) knew what I was wearing was when I was at an outlet store in VA. I was wearing my Zimbe Turtle on stock bracelet and a younger guy (20's maybe?) who worked there walked by and said "nice watch" as he passed. As I normally never get remarks either way about my Turtle, I took this to mean he recognized it.

One of my friends once told me my MM300 was nice and "so shiny," but I know he doesn't know anything about watches and that is just fine by me.


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## Collectionist (Aug 23, 2015)

It's just a Seiko!? I traded my Rolex for an Omega. Bought some Seikos..








Yeah


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## Collectionist (Aug 23, 2015)

SchrodingersCat said:


> I'm glad to see this thread is alive and healthy once again. In the end it is _just a Seiko_, just as a Rolex is_ just a Rolex_, a Honda Civic is _just a Honda Civic_, and a Burrito is _delicious_. It's all just stuff, who cares.


"It's all just stuff" should be qualified. A human being without stuff whatsoever is a caveman wielding a tree trunk to get his dinner. Oh wait that was stuff too. 
And also, stuff has value in use, emotion and trade. Stuff is that essential to our lives. 
Whether we should covet what we don't need is another question. You might need a watch for happiness, keeping time etc. 
Finally what remains is... do you need more than one?


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

An older guy I sometimes work with always brags on his "cheap watches"; he thinks spending more than $75 on a watch is "just plain foolish": if it breaks or gets lost, go to Walmart and buy a new one. He can easily afford a Rolex, but rotates between a couple of Timex's. 

Recently I noticed he had on a Seiko diver, so I asked him if he changed his philosophy. He said he has a "bag of cheap old Seiko's" his older brother had brought home from Vietnam. I was wearing my SRP Turtle, so i said "like this?". He said it looked like some of the "cheap Seiko's" in the bag.

Then he held up the Seiko he had on so I could get a good look at it. It was a pristine 62MAS. Although he passed it off as just a "cheap Seiko", maybe one step above a Timex, somehow I think he knew exactly what it was, and was having some fun at my expense.


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## okcmco (Jan 7, 2016)

canteaus said:


> This is one of the reason I will NEVER buy a rolex.
> I don't want to be associated with people who know nothing about watches and think that Rolex is the best.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think Rolex watches are awesome! The company makes watches with great history/build quality/classic looks... but when you see someone on the street wearing rolex, there is a 50/50 chance that he is clueless about watches...unfortunately, this is often the same case with people who wear cheap Seiko watches -_-


I'm a guitarist. I play professionally and am considered a strong player in the Oklahoma bluegrass scene. I'm not saying I am hot stuff myself but I have been described as such by fans on the several acts I work with (mostly by non musicians). Be that as it may.....
The preferred tool of the bluegrass guitarist is the Martin D28. If it has a watch equivalent, it would be the Rolex submariner. Both of these items wear the label "ubiquitous". They both represent a standard. 
Now the fact that this guitar is is so ever present does no detract from its quality. People don't see mine and say "it's just another Martin". 
Additionally, there are probably more, non pro, non hot stuff, less adept pickers out there who own Martin guitars. These can be beginners who have more money than sense, or people who just assumed that Martin made the best guitars (which many would say is true but not everyone, especially pros). 
However, neither the fact that there are many Martin owning duffers who know nothing of guitars and what makes a Martin world class, nor the fact that at any given bluegrass festival, there are literally hundreds of Martin guitars present, detract from the quality and tone of my Martin, nor the joy I derive from it. 
I hope that, in the grand scheme of things, I will not let the actions and attitudes of others influence me or keep me from choosing something want. 
Put it another way. I was in 2 consecutive bands in the 90's. One a top 40's country band and right after, an original rock band. The leader of the country band simply would not deign to acknowledge any music that was not a chart hit. The leader of the original rock band held in disdain and refused to listen to any music that HAD been a chart hit. Both of these band leaders based their views of the value of music upon how that music was viewed by others. 
Even though I am a road less traveled guy (sometimes to my detriment) , I still want a Rolex.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jeffie007 (Jul 28, 2015)

In the end, it doesn't really matter what others think. It is what you know about the Seiko you have on your wrist. The rich history of the company, the innovation, the classic and iconic designs, etc. I once went into a Rolex dealer and had on my skx007 on a nice steel bracelet, the one salesman there greeted me and asked if that was the 007, I said yep, he said he still has his, great watch. But he was into watches so he knew... I liked the Rolex submariner I tried on, but to me it was not worth 40 X the price...


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## nolte (Jun 28, 2016)

There are folks in this world that say "It's just a Rolex" as well...


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## antcastillo (Mar 10, 2013)

Collectionist said:


> It's just a Seiko!? I traded my Rolex for an Omega. Bought some Seikos..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


KS Seiko model, please?

enviado desde la TZ3c


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## Dunelm (Aug 8, 2013)

antcastillo said:


> KS Seiko model, please?


It's a 5626-7000. Most don't have that dial though.


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## ryan1524 (Feb 13, 2017)

*I guess I'd better get used to hearing "it's just a seiko"*

I'm sure the people out there also say: "it's just a Patek/Rolex/Tag/IWC/Tudor/etc..."

Wear it because you like it and be proud.

Be proud that Seiko is a successful company and maker, that they have delivered new tech and products with quality that makes us question the validity and logic of those supposedly more prestigious ones.

Ryan


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## Collectionist (Aug 23, 2015)

*I guess I'd better get used to hearing "it's just a seiko"*



Dunelm said:


> It's a 5626-7000. Most don't have that dial though.


Correct. Pretty rare... and the only King Seiko I love. It runs at +2 wearing it and at night settles back to -2 or so, thus perfectly in time during the week. 
My guess it was only produced for three years or less since it is not depicted in the catalogue of 1969 or 1973 and later, probably in the 70 or 71 catalogue. But they are apparently lost. 








Here it is again. Freshly overhauled, just needed cleaning. Got me a new crystal though.


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