# Aquis 400 - power reserve issue



## aldousx (Dec 18, 2020)

I have the old Aquis model and looking to buy the new Aquis 400. There are 2 issues that made me hesitate but turns out 1 was resolved so just 1 issue:

1 - setting time -pushing crown back - can overshoot then set, which is fine.
2- power reserve - 5-7 mins of winding? That is way too long. Are there machines you can buy to do it for you?

Also heard that even if you wind it fully, then use it, movement doesn't power the charge. Theoretically if you wind it fully then use it everyday for 6 months, you WILL NOT need to wind in those 6 months cos MOVEMENT charges the watch. However, 1 guy on YouTube had 3.5 days of use (with active lifestyle) and watch went dead after 3.5 days - implying movement did not continue to charge the watch.

Anyone else had similar issues with the Aquis 400?


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## sticky (Apr 5, 2013)

It’s a new movement so unless you are desperate to get it I’d hold off for a while until any bugs are ironed out.


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## dogandcatdentist (Jan 10, 2016)

aldousx said:


> I have the old Aquis model and looking to buy the new Aquis 400. There are 2 issues that made me hesitate but turns out 1 was resolved so just 1 issue:
> 
> 1 - setting time -pushing crown back - can overshoot then set, which is fine.
> 2- power reserve - 5-7 mins of winding? That is way too long. Are there machines you can buy to do it for you?
> ...


Well, yes, I rotate my watches, and it does appear that you can't simply set the watch down and pickup a few days later without having to top off with a few winds if you don't want to start loosing time. The accuracy throughout the power reserve seems poor and the ability to auto wind the movement to "regain" lost power is also poor. My opinion and experience...since owning this piece, since Thanksgiving.

I'm fine with these shortcomings, as I'm your typical early adopter.

Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

Oris VP told us that it takes ~250 full crown rotations to fully wind. He also told us to contact Oris immediately if there were any issues because they want to analyze them.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

aldousx said:


> I have the old Aquis model and looking to buy the new Aquis 400. There are 2 issues that made me hesitate but turns out 1 was resolved so just 1 issue:
> 
> 1 - setting time -pushing crown back - can overshoot then set, which is fine.
> 2- power reserve - 5-7 mins of winding? That is way too long. Are there machines you can buy to do it for you?
> ...


If you wear it every day the only machine you need to wind the new Aquis is your arm. Just hand wind it enough to get it running and let arm movement spin the rotor and wind the mainspring. If that Youtuber was honest in his description then the watch likely was not lubricated properly at the factory and needs a service under warranty.

That said if your old model Aquis works my recommendation would be to stick with it. I've got two not new Pointer Dates that use the SW200 movement and have no problem attaining full power reserve with just arm movement.


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## one onety-one (Jul 20, 2020)

John MS said:


> If you wear it every day the only machine you need to wind the new Aquis is your arm. Just hand wind it enough to get it running and let arm movement spin the rotor and wind the mainspring. If that Youtuber was honest in his description then the watch likely was not lubricated properly at the factory and needs a service under warranty.
> 
> That said if your old model Aquis works my recommendation would be to stick with it. I've got two not new Pointer Dates that use the SW200 movement and have no problem attaining full power reserve with just arm movement.


"Attaining", or "maintaining" full power reserve? To thread-Jack for a moment, I have doubts about the efficiency of the auto-wind of my BCPD. It's one thing to fully hand wind the movement then have your arm motion keep the PR bumping around its max, but another thing to pick up your watch with 1/4 of the PR remaining then winding up to full reserve with only arm movement. Also, at what point along the power curve is it "normal" to begin noticeably losing time? My Seiko 4r36 runs fast until it drops dead. My SW200 starts slowing down after 24-28 hours and while it stops slowing down while I wear it (moderate activity), the next morning it has slowed again telling me that it didn't get much of a wind while it was on my wrist.

On a watch such as the Aquis cal. 400 with a 5 day power reserve, inefficient automatic winding really blunts the benefits of that feature. Especially when it takes as long as it does to hand wind it.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

I've owned many rotor wound watches and they have all attained full power reserve by simply wearing the watch. That's how they're designed to work as long as the watch isn't long past service time.

It makes sense that a longer power reserve will need more stored energy in the form of more crown turns or rotor spins. I would expect the 5 day reserve to take much longer to attain.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

FWIW I was curious and wound my Christopher Ward with 120 hour reserve and it took 185 winds.


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## dogandcatdentist (Jan 10, 2016)

John MS said:


> I've owned many rotor wound watches and they have all attained full power reserve by simply wearing the watch. That's how they're designed to work as long as the watch isn't long past service time.
> 
> It makes sense that a longer power reserve will need more stored energy in the form of more crown turns or rotor spins. I would expect the 5 day reserve to take much longer to attain.


Yeah, I'm not a sedentary person, by any means, and I guess it's fine if you don't check the accuracy every time you grab your watch; for sure, you can take it off the wirst on a Friday and pick it up on Monday, and it'll be running. But, simply wearing the watch really isn't enough to top off the power reserve, consistently, and the stated accuracy is really only if you are at full power and wearing the watch all the time. All not reasons, at least for me, to ditch the watch, but it's certainly an issue with the movement, my Tudors and Blancpain with long power reserves dont have these issues. But, all said, I still love the dial, and the fit and finish of the watch for the price.

Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

dogandcatdentist said:


> Yeah, I'm not a sedentary person, by any means, and I guess it's fine if you don't check the accuracy every time you grab your watch; for sure, you can take it off the wirst on a Friday and pick it up on Monday, and it'll be running. But, simply wearing the watch really isn't enough to top off the power reserve, consistently, and the stated accuracy is really only if you are at full power and wearing the watch all the time. All not reasons, at least for me, to ditch the watch, but it's certainly an issue with the movement, my Tudors and Blancpain with long power reserves dont have these issues. But, all said, I still love the dial, and the fit and finish of the watch for the price.
> 
> Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


Puzzling that the rotor doesn't seem to be fully winding the watch. Maybe Oris should take a look. How is the accuracy averaged over several days?


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

John MS said:


> Puzzling that the rotor doesn't seem to be fully winding the watch. Maybe Oris should take a look. How is the accuracy averaged over several days?


Supposedly the uni-directional rotor is supposed to make the Caliber 400 more efficient but it could be working against it.


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## kritameth (Oct 11, 2015)

sticky said:


> It's a new movement so unless you are desperate to get it I'd hold off for a while until any bugs are ironed out.


+1. Absolutely baffles me why anyone would want to part with hard-earned money despite knowing all this. OP, you've probably already heard all the spiels, unacceptable on less..., absolutely unacceptable on this..., I won't beat the dead horse. Just keep it mind, if you're considering because you think you're getting a great deal from the AD, the market are well aware of all this so you'll most likely be taking a hit in depreciation if buying new. I know one sold for $2k after just 2 weeks old.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

JacobC said:


> Supposedly the uni-directional rotor is supposed to make the Caliber 400 more efficient but it could be working against it.


Hard to tell from afar. It could also be the movement takes a couple of days or more of full day wear to wind itself.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

John MS said:


> Hard to tell from afar. It could also be the movement takes a couple of days or more of full day wear to wind itself.


Absolutely a possibility considering the two barrels.


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## dogandcatdentist (Jan 10, 2016)

John MS said:


> Hard to tell from afar. It could also be the movement takes a couple of days or more of full day wear to wind itself.


I'm pretty sure it does. I guess if you rotate watches like I do...you don't know for sure, and how many days it takes. You almost have to keep it on wrist at night.

Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

dogandcatdentist said:


> I'm pretty sure it does. I guess if you rotate watches like I do...you don't know for sure, and how many days it takes. You almost have to keep it on wrist at night.
> 
> Sent from my SM-F916U1 using Tapatalk


Yeah we all rotate watches sometimes more than 1x a day!
Try just wearing that lovely Aquis for a solid week and see what happens to accuracy and power reserve over that time.  I know...one watch...it'll be tough..lol!


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## bruck177 (Jan 20, 2020)

Let others beta test the new movement; soon enough it'll be fully ready for prime time.


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## James_ (Sep 5, 2011)

As someone who wears the same watch for a month at least, and now only ever wear my titanium Aquis, I'm sure I could figure out if this new movement can build up to its full power reserve. I also always wear my watch to bed. It's only ever off for my monthly disinfection bath to get rid of the ticks, lice and fleas.

I would question whether it could actually reach close to full PR on even an average active person's wrist. But then again it's probably not designed to work best near full PR, or if it does work best near full, then it will also have a wide range where it works well. Amplitude or something isn't it?


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

aldousx said:


> I have the old Aquis model and looking to buy the new Aquis 400. There are 2 issues that made me hesitate but turns out 1 was resolved so just 1 issue:
> 
> 1 - setting time -pushing crown back - can overshoot then set, which is fine.
> 2- power reserve - 5-7 mins of winding? That is way too long. Are there machines you can buy to do it for you?
> ...


Yes I have. I have tried to work out the number of manual turns to fully wind watch with no joy. Oris told me 20-25 bit this is nonsense. Kept going for couple of days. Also I store it in a good watch winder with my other automatics and again it only does for maximum 5 days in winder then stops. This has happened 5 times since I got watch in early November. I contacted the retailer and said I wasn't happy with this watch given the bold claims about power reserve. I asked if they could contact Oris and find out the number of TPD and direction for winder as it keeps stopping and there is no information available on the internet. Presumably because movement is new. Anyway Oris said watch still needs to be would manually!!! Could not believe this response. I've got numerous automatics and had others in the past all stores in watchwinder and guess what? They never stop and never have to be would manually with much less power reserve. I'm sending watch back this week and getting refund!! For what it's worth, it did go for 100 hours without wearing at all but needed a lot of manual winding for that.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Macca1973 said:


> Oris told me 20-25 bit this is nonsense


Can you share the e-mail where you received this information ?


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Yukoner1 said:


> Can you share the e-mail where you received this information ?


No problem, here it is.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Macca1973 said:


> No problem, here it is.


OK, so first thing here is that that's not "Oris". That's a third party retailer. Also, they did not tell you that 20/25 rotations is fully wound. They told you "we usually recommend winding your watch a full 20/25 if you are using a watch winder". So they're saying that you should manually wind 20/25 full crown rotations BEFORE putting it onto the watch winder.

This is why I asked you to post the actual correspondence. I believe you have misunderstood what they said, not to mention, "they" is a retailer, not Oris the manufacturer themselves.


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## ACL-Watch (May 23, 2018)

Yukoner1 said:


> OK, so first thing here is that that's not "Oris". That's a third party retailer. Also, they did not tell you that 20/25 rotations is fully wound. They told you "we usually recommend winding your watch a full 20/25 if you are using a watch winder". So they're saying that you should manually wind 20/25 full crown rotations BEFORE putting it onto the watch winder.
> 
> This is why I asked you to post the actual correspondence. I believe you have misunderstood what they said, not to mention, "they" is a retailer, not Oris the manufacturer themselves.


Speaking of Oris themselves, I have written to them on a few occasions and they usually get back to me within a couple of days tops.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> OK, so first thing here is that that's not "Oris". That's a third party retailer. Also, they did not tell you that 20/25 rotations is fully wound. They told you "we usually recommend winding your watch a full 20/25 if you are using a watch winder". So they're saying that you should manually wind 20/25 full crown rotations BEFORE putting it onto the watch winder.
> 
> This is why I asked you to post the actual correspondence. I believe you have misunderstood what they said, not to mention, "they" is a retailer, not Oris the manufacturer themselves.


No reason to address him like he's an invalid child.

The notion the movement needs to be wound before going on a winder indicates someone has no idea what they're talking about.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

Robotaz said:


> No reason to address him like he's an invalid child.
> 
> The notion the movement needs to be wound before going on a winder indicates someone has no idea what they're talking about.


You should always hand start an automatic if you care about timekeeping performance.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

JacobC said:


> You should always hand start an automatic if you care about timekeeping performance.


Winding a watch before you put it on a winder has no effect whatsoever.


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Yukoner1 said:


> OK, so first thing here is that that's not "Oris". That's a third party retailer. Also, they did not tell you that 20/25 rotations is fully wound. They told you "we usually recommend winding your watch a full 20/25 if you are using a watch winder". So they're saying that you should manually wind 20/25 full crown rotations BEFORE putting it onto the watch winder.
> 
> This is why I asked you to post the actual correspondence. I believe you have misunderstood what they said, not to mention, "they" is a retailer, not Oris the manufacturer themselves.


I did contact Oris through there website. However, they have a predefined form to complete. So when you enter UK as location it obviously gets routed through to there boutique in London. Ideally I wanted to get a response from some technical person in Switzerland but cannot find a way of doing this. With regards to the advice they offered, it is still no good because after winding the watch the full 20-25 turns, then putting in the watch winder, it stopped after a couple of days. Far from satisfactory.


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Robotaz said:


> No reason to address him like he's an invalid child.
> 
> The notion the movement needs to be wound before going on a winder indicates someone has no idea what they're talking about.


No problem. I agree with his points but I did not misunderstand what they said and yes this is Oris's sales boutique. However this is where head office routed my query to.

I had heard that you should manually wind Swatch before it goes into a winder. However, I've never actually done this with any other automatic watch and I've had quite a few and they always work, never stop and keep good time. Defeats the object having the Oris with big power reserve if that's the case.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Macca1973 said:


> With regards to the advice they offered, it is still no good because after winding the watch the full 20-25 turns, then putting in the watch winder, it stopped after a couple of days. Far from satisfactory.


Lots of confusion in this thread, so if I can clarify a few things...

A watch winder is not intended to wind your watch from a dead stop to fully wound. If properly set, they should maintain the state of wind that is in the watch, not increase it or let it run down. If you have a watch winder set so that you put a watch on it that has stopped, and it winds the watch up, the winder is set for too many TPD. In this case if you leave a watch on there for any length of time after it is fully wound, then you are unnecessarily adding wear and tear on the watch - the mainspring will be slipping in the barrel almost constantly, for no real reason. Over time the spring slipping inside the barrel will wear out the barrel wall - example of that here:



New barrel on the left, worn one on the right.

Ideally when using a winder, what I recommend people do is take the watch off at the end of their day, and instead of putting it right onto the winder when it is presumably at full wind, let is sit overnight, and put it on the winder the nest day. That way the watch won't be at full wind all the time it's on the winder.

Unless you know the number of TPD and the directions of wind, the way to find out the level required is to put the winder on as high as it will go, and see if that winds it. If it does, then slowly decrease the TPD until it starts to not keep the wind.

If there isn't sufficient turns per day setting on you winder to keep this wound at the highest setting, then this watch either requires a higher setting, or the watch is faulty. Difficult to say which this is with the information provided.

Oris should be able to provide this data...

Cheers, Al


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## James_ (Sep 5, 2011)

Luke is the same guy that wrongly told me the Oris Aquis has a sapphire case back.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> No reason to address him like he's an invalid child.


I'm not, but I am being very direct because misinformation is a huge problem. In this case, no one told him that winding the watch 20 to 25 crown rotations will fully wind the movement.



Macca1973 said:


> I did contact Oris through there website. However, they have a predefined form to complete. So when you enter UK as location it obviously gets routed through to there boutique in London. Ideally I wanted to get a response from some technical person in Switzerland but cannot find a way of doing this. With regards to the advice they offered, it is still no good because after winding the watch the full 20-25 turns, then putting in the watch winder, it stopped after a couple of days. Far from satisfactory.


Interesting. When I've contacted Oris, I've always gotten someone in Switzerland who answered. So not sure why they'd send you to an AD. In any case, that is an AD, not Oris themselves, just so we're all on the same page.

As for the advice - again, I think you're misunderstanding. @Archer has provided an exceptional explanation of how watch winders are supposed to work. I believe you are under an incorrect understanding of what your watch winder is supposed to do. From what you've described thus far, I'm not seeing a "problem" with your watch.


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Yukoner1 said:


> I'm not, but I am being very direct because misinformation is a huge problem. In this case, no one told him that winding the watch 20 to 25 crown rotations will fully wind the movement.
> 
> Interesting. When I've contacted Oris, I've always gotten someone in Switzerland who answered. So not sure why they'd send you to an AD. In any case, that is an AD, not Oris themselves, just so we're all on the same page.
> 
> As for the advice - again, I think you're misunderstanding. @Archer has provided an exceptional explanation of how watch winders are supposed to work. I believe you are under an incorrect understanding of what your watch winder is supposed to do. From what you've described thus far, I'm not seeing a "problem" with your watch.


I realise the watchwinder is supposed to maintain the watch at the power it was at when put in the winder and not fully wind it. However, the Oris AD could not answer the question of how many TPD and direction, only say that the watch still needs to be manually wound even with a watchwinder. Again I wanted to get an answer from Oris in Switzerland, but they rerouted it to the UK as that is were I live. But I still go back to my other automatics and the fact they don't ever need manually winding and have never stopped. Just wear them occasionally and rest of time in watchwinder.

I've sent watch back today to retailer so should hear off them later this week.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Macca1973 said:


> only say that the watch still needs to be manually wound even with a watchwinder.


No, the AD did not say this. This is part of the misunderstanding I'm talking about. The AD told you (and I'm paraphrasing here so I can say it in a bit of a different way) that you need to do 20 to 25 crown rotations BEFORE putting the watch into the winder IF your movement's power reserve has RUN OUT. They're saying that you need to manually "start" the movement back up from a dead stop, before it goes into the watch winder.

This is correct and 100% accurate for ALL automatic watches. The movement should be running before it goes into a watch winder, period, and therefore should be started via manual crown winding.

Yes, all your other automatics should be manually started before being put into a watch winder as well.

To clarify - you do not need to do this from a functional point of view. If you put a watch, movement stopped because the power reserve ran out, a watch winder _will_ start the movement after a number of rotations. It's not a functional limitation we're talking about from that perspective.


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Yukoner1 said:


> No, the AD did not say this. This is part of the misunderstanding I'm talking about. The AD told you (and I'm paraphrasing here so I can say it in a bit of a different way) that you need to do 20 to 25 crown rotations BEFORE putting the watch into the winder IF your movement's power reserve has RUN OUT. They're saying that you need to manually "start" the movement back up from a dead stop, before it goes into the watch winder.
> 
> This is correct and 100% accurate for ALL automatic watches. The movement should be running before it goes into a watch winder, period, and therefore should be started via manual crown winding.
> 
> ...





Yukoner1 said:


> No, the AD did not say this. This is part of the misunderstanding I'm talking about. The AD told you (and I'm paraphrasing here so I can say it in a bit of a different way) that you need to do 20 to 25 crown rotations BEFORE putting the watch into the winder IF your movement's power reserve has RUN OUT. They're saying that you need to manually "start" the movement back up from a dead stop, before it goes into the watch winder.
> 
> This is correct and 100% accurate for ALL automatic watches. The movement should be running before it goes into a watch winder, period, and therefore should be started via manual crown winding.
> 
> ...


I asked Oris a straight forward question of how many TPD and direction in the watchwinder. Information readily available for most watch movements and they couldn't answer. This 20/25 manual turns before putting in the winder is not answering the question. Their answer doesn't specifically say from a dead start either. In fact if this was the case, then it is wrong too. If a watchwinder is meant to maintain the power reserve prior to putting in the winder and the watch was stopped completely, then it would take a lot more than 20/25 full turns of the crown to get a significant amount of power stored prior to putting in the winder. Apparently it needs around 250 turns, according to the VP of Oris is stayed by one of the other users on this thread.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Macca1973 said:


> Their answer doesn't specifically say from a dead start either. In fact if this was the case, then it is wrong too. If a watchwinder is meant to maintain the power reserve prior to putting in the winder and the watch was stopped completely, then it would take a lot more than 20/25 full turns of the crown to get a significant amount of power stored prior to putting in the winder. Apparently it needs around 250 turns, according to the VP of Oris is stayed by one of the other users on this thread.


"or even if you have not been wearing it for a long period of time" This infers that Luke is referencing a completely stopped movement, due to exhausted power reserve. "or even" means a continuation of the previous statement referred. If you're suggesting he means something else, then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to go back and clarify. But, along with myself, I asked 3 other people in my office to come read what Luke wrote and all of them reached the same conclusion - that he's talking about a completely stopped movement.

Also, I can tell you from personal, first hand experience, ~20 full crown revolutions is plenty to get the movement started to go onto a winder. My mechanical watches are weekend-wear only, so I have lots of experience with movements that have stopped due to power reserve running out.

Again, respectfully, I believe you're misunderstanding what you're being told. As for TPD, I agree you should be able to get this information. Personally, I'd go back to Oris the manufacturer and send them another e-mail inquiry. Like I said, the few times I've done so, it's always been someone in Switzerland who responded to me.


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## Macca1973 (Jan 24, 2021)

Yukoner1 said:


> "or even if you have not been wearing it for a long period of time" This infers that Luke is referencing a completely stopped movement, due to exhausted power reserve. "or even" means a continuation of the previous statement referred. If you're suggesting he means something else, then I'm not sure what to tell you other than to go back and clarify. But, along with myself, I asked 3 other people in my office to come read what Luke wrote and all of them reached the same conclusion - that he's talking about a completely stopped movement.
> 
> Also, I can tell you from personal, first hand experience, ~20 full crown revolutions is plenty to get the movement started to go onto a winder. My mechanical watches are weekend-wear only, so I have lots of experience with movements that have stopped due to power reserve running out.
> 
> Again, respectfully, I believe you're misunderstanding what you're being told. As for TPD, I agree you should be able to get this information. Personally, I'd go back to Oris the manufacturer and send them another e-mail inquiry. Like I said, the few times I've done so, it's always been someone in Switzerland who responded to me.


I agree it is more than enough turns to get watch going before putting in winder. Anyway, like I said in my earlier post, I sent the watch back to retailer today having spoke to them on Saturday and I should be getting at least a credit note now or hopefully refund. I've had watch two months and just sick of the messing around. If Oris had answered my question back in December when I originally contacted them, then probably would have been no issue. Just annoyed and fed up with it now.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Macca1973 said:


> I agree it is more than enough turns to get watch going before putting in winder. Anyway, like I said in my earlier post, I sent the watch back to retailer today having spoke to them on Saturday and I should be getting at least a credit note now or hopefully refund. I've had watch two months and just sick of the messing around. If Oris had answered my question back in December when I originally contacted them, then probably would have been no issue. Just annoyed and fed up with it now.


If you're happy now, that's good, maybe this isn't the watch for you. All I can say is: "and just sick of the messing around" Again, I think you misunderstood what you were told. There's no "messing around" with how to use a watch winder. No one told you 20/25 crown rotations is fully wound. All automatics should be crown-wound to get started before going onto a watch winder.

If I can make a suggestion - this forum, YouTube, and the general internet has a wealth of knowledge and resources to learn about this hobby / passion. I'd recommend you take a look and inform yourself more, because numerous things you've posted have been factually incorrect and I think that's lead to some of the misunderstandings. To be clear - not trying to be a jerk here, just a friendly suggestion so you can be better informed on how to care for your timepieces 😊


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## Benno1uk (May 21, 2017)

Did someone send their watch back because they wrongly thought they were told that 20-25 turns would fully wind their watch? Even though they know the Oris VP has said 250 turns. I’m confused.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Benno1uk said:


> Did someone send their watch back because they wrongly thought they were told that 20-25 turns would fully wind their watch? Even though they know the Oris VP has said 250 turns. I'm confused.


...... Yes...... To which I've been trying to, as politely as I can, explain that they're not really understanding how watches work and they need to use the resources available on the internet to educate themselves more. Because this is more a misunderstanding than anything else.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

I would've rather the watch got sent for service because I'd love to see the service notes on a brand new caliber.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Winding 20-25 times and then wearing an automatic watch daily is more than enough. If it doesn’t run correctly than it’s a seriously flawed movement or it’s broken.

I’ve never wound a watch when I put it on. I put it on and by the time I’m driving to work it’s running, or will be with a simple flick of the wrist, then I set it. This talk of winding and winding an auto is stupid. It’s not necessary if the watch works correctly. My opinion is based on wearing hundreds of automatic watches over 30 years.


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## Benno1uk (May 21, 2017)

Yukoner1 said:


> ...... Yes...... To which I've been trying to, as politely as I can, explain that they're not really understanding how watches work and they need to use the resources available on the internet to educate themselves more. Because this is more a misunderstanding than anything else.


I noticed he was from the UK. We seem to have had quite a lot of problems recently created by people who don't actually understand what they're doing but are adamant they are right (see also Brexit...).


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> Winding 20-25 times and then wearing an automatic watch daily is more than enough. If it doesn't run correctly than it's a seriously flawed movement or it's broken.
> 
> I've never wound a watch when I put it on. I put it on and by the time I'm driving to work it's running, or will be with a simple flick of the wrist, then I set it. This talk of winding and winding an auto is stupid. It's not necessary if the watch works correctly. My opinion is based on wearing hundreds of automatic watches over 30 years.


I agree with you, 20-25 crown rotations is enough to "start it up", like the ignition cycle of a motor vehicle, and then run itself from self-winding.

I do disagree with you about not manually winding before putting on wrist though. I've been told this ADs, service centres, other WISs, and it's literally in the manual of many different watches. Since we're in an Oris forum, here's what Oris literally wrote in their product manual:










I do agree with you that an automatic watch WILL start up on its own, without manually winding the crown, via self-winding. However, I suspect that there must be some kind of concern that the watch would go into a state where it's wound up enough to run for 90 seconds, then dies, then a minute later it's good for another 120 seconds, then dies, etc. My guess (and it's only a guess, I could be wrong here) is that would introduce a lot more wear and tear and would be bad for the movement. In the same context as if you sat in your motor vehicle and turned the ignition on, let it run for for 20 seconds, turned it off, waited a minute, turned it on again, etc. While I'm not a watchmaker or a movement engineer, I do work with mechanical systems, and therefore I have a strong feeling that's what the worry is from the manufactures.



Benno1uk said:


> I noticed he was from the UK. We seem to have had quite a lot of problems recently created by people who don't actually understand what they're doing but are adamant they are right (see also Brexit...).


At first glace it seems that his English language skills are perfectly fine, but if you read carefully, there are sections that make me wonder if he's not really that proficient..... I'm not trying to be a jerk here or something if English isn't his first language, but I wonder if his misunderstanding of what he was told is due to this. It would certainly explain a lot.

Yeah..... Brexit...... While there was certainly no way to predict the C19 pandemic, that sure hit at THE worst time in relation to Brexit.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> I agree with you, 20-25 crown rotations is enough to "start it up", like the ignition cycle of a motor vehicle, and then run itself from self-winding.
> 
> I do disagree with you about not manually winding before putting on wrist though. I've been told this ADs, service centres, other WISs, and it's literally in the manual of many different watches. Since we're in an Oris forum, here's what Oris literally wrote in their product manual:
> 
> ...


They're telling the owner to wind it when they put it on because they assume the owner is a total newb (moron?) who cannot understand the concept of waiting for it to run on its own.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> They're telling the owner to wind it when they put it on because they assume the owner is a total newb (moron?) who cannot understand the concept of waiting for it to run on its own.


?‍♀ All I can tell you is what information is out there. Between ADs, service centres, WISs and the owner's manual itself, I have consistently heard across the board that manual winding to "get it going" is the correct process. If Oris wants to clarify that this has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics, or wear and tear, or anything like that, and is more of a "convenience" for ensuring accurate time keeping, then I'll accept that. However, up until that moment, "they put it on because they assume the owner is a total newb (moron?)" is merely an opinion without any supporting evidence of it being factual.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> However, up until that moment, "they put it on because they assume the owner is a total newb (moron?)" is merely an opinion without any supporting evidence of it being factual.


It's common freakin' sense. I get it you love arguing semantics, but just use common sense.

Oris can't put in their manual, "lift the watch and lower it briskly and your watch should start". They have to have some procedure that will definitely work for clueless people who have no idea how a watch works. Once a person understands, it ain't rocket science. Anything you can do to minimize wear on the winding internals is the way you want to go. Winding 25 times a day is not minimizing winding internal wear. Many watches have garbage winding mechanisms (ETA, Sellita, etc) and you're seriously just tearing the watch up if you wind it constantly.

Wear it around in the morning, give it a light shake, hack, set time, you're done. Least work and least wear.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> It's common freakin' sense. I get it you love arguing semantics, but just use common sense.


Ooooooooook. I don't think it's semantics. Again: AD, service centre, WISs and the actual owners manual, if we count those up that's 1..... 2.... 3..... 4 legitimate sources all say to hand wind first. Then there's you, a single person, proclaiming otherwise. To be clear, you _may _be correct, I'm not saying definitively that you aren't. I am saying that every other legitimate source says otherwise, so regardless of what you believe and the rationale you used to get there, I think I'll follow the manufacturer's instructions.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

I think this thread has run its course.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

JacobC said:


> I think this thread has run its course.


No, the issue of 400 power reserve will be an ongoing issue. One person arguing over and over when they don't understand how watches work has run its course.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Robotaz said:


> They're telling the owner to wind it when they put it on because they assume the owner is a total newb (moron?) who cannot understand the concept of waiting for it to run on its own.


Sure, a watch will wind from a dead stop if you move enough, but who is going to "wait" for it to wind up, and then remember to set it at some later time once it has wound up enough to stay running and maintain accuracy? This isn't just Oris, it's common instruction from watch companies to wind the watch 25 or 30 turns of the crown from a stopped state, before you set it and wear it.

This argument your making may be technically correct, but it's nonsensical for the average person.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> No, the issue of 400 power reserve will be an ongoing issue. One person arguing over and over when they don't understand how watches work has run its course.


Again - what I told you is that I'd rather listen to 4 reputable sources vs you. Who are you ? "Robotaz" ? So Robotaz says (hypothetically) it's best to leave your watch underwater overnight or anytime you aren't wearing it - so that means it's true ?

Again, I did state that you might very well be correct and it's completely irrelevant whether "starting" the movement from a dead stop is done via crown or rotor, and it makes absolutely no difference. AD, service centre, WISs and the actual owners manual all state otherwise. Who you think I'm going to listen to ? Give your head a shake. You're some random dude on a forum whose opinion is nothing more than the opinion of a single hobbyist with very little degree of authority to speak to the subject beyond that.

Feel free to keep coming back if you want - if you think I've "run my course" then you don't know much about me because I have no problem repeating the above as many times as necessary for you to be able to grasp it


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> Again - what I told you is that I'd rather listen to 4 reputable sources vs you. Who are you ? "Robotaz" ? So Robotaz says (hypothetically) it's best to leave your watch underwater overnight or anytime you aren't wearing it - so that means it's true ?
> 
> Again, I did state that you might very well be correct and it's completely irrelevant whether "starting" the movement from a dead stop is done via crown or rotor, and it makes absolutely no difference. AD, service centre, WISs and the actual owners manual all state otherwise. Who you think I'm going to listen to ? Give your head a shake. You're some random dude on a forum whose opinion is nothing more than the opinion of a single hobbyist with very little degree of authority to speak to the subject beyond that.
> 
> Feel free to keep coming back if you want - if you think I've "run my course" then you don't know much about me because I have no problem repeating the above as many times as necessary for you to be able to grasp it


Yes, I get it by the entire thread being your spam. You love to argue. My recommendation would be to speak less and read more because you don't know much about watches.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> Yes, I get it by the entire thread being your spam. You love to argue. My recommendation would be to speak less and read more because you don't know much about watches.


I did read. I read the owners manual. It has clear instructions. Then I talked to the servicing centre. Then I chatted with the AD. Did you really need me to reiterate all this again ? All three of those sang the same tune. Then there's you. Robotaz. I suggest you chat with all three of the above and see if you can convince them of your opinion and see if they'll change their minds. If you're 100% correct (which I've said twice now, it's very possible), then perhaps they will. Until such a time, however, I'll follow what those 3 have advised.

This is akin to you standing on a soapbox and proclaiming that 5K mile oil change intervals in a motor vehicle are garbage and you can go 50K miles instead ! Yet, in the owners manual for the vehicle, it says 5K miles...... See where this is going ? I'm going to venture that most people will follow the OEM's instructions vs some dude on a forum proclaiming otherwise.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

So, Jordan isn't the most exciting presenter, but this has some good technical information. Clearly this movement has some issues that need to be resolved...






So cutting to the chase, confirmation that this watch doesn't wind via the rotor as it should, and also that the hand setting issue is quite real, and is a design related issue.

Unfortunately he doesn't give actual timing information, which I would have appreciated.

On the hand setting issue, the ":work around" that he shows he doesn't really explain, but what moving the crown back the other direction does is allow the movement that is caused by the one small gear swinging away, to be taken up by the backlash in the minute wheel.

He also shows that the silicon escapement is oiled, and to be honest it's oiled very poorly. Oil all over the sides of the escape wheel teeth, which doesn't do any good. Overall, not impressed...


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Archer said:


> He also shows that the silicon escapement is oiled, and to be honest it's oiled very poorly. Oil all over the sides of the escape wheel teeth, which doesn't do any good. Overall, not impressed...


It'd be interesting to see him do the same assessment on the Calibre 401, specifically a comparison, to see if it's exactly the same of if it's different.


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## ironcastle (Dec 20, 2013)

Yukoner1 said:


> I did read. I read the owners manual. It has clear instructions. Then I talked to the servicing centre. Then I chatted with the AD. Did you really need me to reiterate all this again ? All three of those sang the same tune. Then there's you. Robotaz. I suggest you chat with all three of the above and see if you can convince them of your opinion and see if they'll change their minds. If you're 100% correct (which I've said twice now, it's very possible), then perhaps they will. Until such a time, however, I'll follow what those 3 have advised.
> 
> This is akin to you standing on a soapbox and proclaiming that 5K mile oil change intervals in a motor vehicle are garbage and you can go 50K miles instead ! Yet, in the owners manual for the vehicle, it says 5K miles...... See where this is going ? I'm going to venture that most people will follow the OEM's instructions vs some dude on a forum proclaiming otherwise.


I read your arguments here.

Fact is, I doubt you have any detailed knowledge in the construction of the movement. The gears of the winding mechanism are fragile. That's why you should be careful and don't wind it more than necessary. If not needed, don't do it. They are not designed for a recurrent usage. The movement is designed for being wound by the automatic winding mechanism.

What they are answering you is a standard answer, based on the situation that the watch shall be reliable. With that said, they can with confidence claim that the watch will run and keep time even though you take it off over night, for instance. 
If you just start wearing it, it will also start running, but as they don't know for how long you will wear it, they can't say it'll be enough to keep it running over night if you take it off, and want to wear it next morning.

So my guess here, is that 12 turns is so little, that it won't do damage as long as you don't do it every day. But still. It is not a good idea, neither is it necessary. You do add extra wear to the winding mechanism, which is not a good idea. Question is not if but when you will run into problems. No matter what is stated in any manuals or said by any AD's. 
Look at the design and very small surfaces of the gear wheels you are adding force on. 
But it is your watch. Do as you like. You'll likely have to add some extra $ to your service bill. That's all that will happen.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

ironcastle said:


> Fact is, I doubt you have any detailed knowledge in the construction of the movement. The gears of the winding mechanism are fragile. That's why you should be careful and don't wind it more than necessary. If not needed, don't do it.
> 
> So my guess here, is that 12 turns is so little, that it won't do damage as long as you don't do it every day. But still. It is not a good idea, neither is it necessary. You do add extra wear to the winding mechanism, which is not a good idea. Question is not if but when you will run into problems. No matter what is stated in any manuals or said by any AD's.
> Look at the design and very small surfaces of the gear wheels you are adding force on.
> But it is your watch. Do as you like. You'll likely have to add some extra $ to your service bill. That's all that will happen.


Sigh. We're still on this topic, eh ?

You are correct, I'm not a watchmaker nor a movement engineer. And I don't disagree with you, one shouldn't hand-wind an automatic if it's running. If you wear the same watch every day, then there's no need to manually wind it because the movement's power reserve will easily make it through the night.

That being said, if the power reserve has been exhausted, then the correct way to "start it" is to manually wind. The manufacture, the AD as well as the Oris Service Centre all give these specific directions / instructions. That's what I will follow - regardless of if some folks on an internet forum claim they superiorly know otherwise.

Your statement of "Question is not if but when you will run into problems" is correct, but not in the context you used. A mechanical wrist watch is a "machine" and will require servicing when it runs into problems. The laws of physics don't change here, and friction and moving parts will eventually require some degree of attention and maintenance. The question is whether starting your movement via crown is going to materially impact those "problems", or when those "problems" occur. Unless you've got definitive evidence that it does, it's merely an opinion that using the crown (which, BTW, exists for a reason) would do so.

Also, FWIW, I've had my Divers Sixty-Five serviced and paid money for it. No extra $ on my servicing bill due to manually winding to start the movement.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

ironcastle said:


> The gears of the winding mechanism are fragile. That's why you should be careful and don't wind it more than necessary. If not needed, don't do it. They are not designed for a recurrent usage.


Next to water resistance related questions this whole thing about manually winding automatic watches being a "really bad idea" is probably the most overblown thing on WUS.

Manually winding the watch to start it is common practice, and recommended by just about every watch brand out there. Winding the watch to get it started from a stopped condition is not a problem - period.

Winding an automatic watch excessively can cause problems. Note the word "excessively" - this means winding it far more than what is needed to get it started. So for example someone who has a nervous fidget and winds the watch through the day, every day. Yes, something like that may cause a problem, but there's absolutely no reason why a typical automatic can't be wound to start it up and give it an initial charge - that is in fact how they are designed to work.

Cheers, Al


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Archer said:


> Next to water resistance related questions this whole thing about manually winding automatic watches being a "really bad idea" is probably the most overblown thing on WUS.
> 
> Manually winding the watch to start it is common practice, and recommended by just about every watch brand out there. Winding the watch to get it started from a stopped condition is not a problem - period.
> 
> ...


We've seen what, dozens of threads about manual winding mechanisms failing prematurely on this forum over the past decade or so?

To each his own. Wind your automatics. I'll do what I do and not have to worry about them failing.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> Unless you've got definitive evidence that it does, it's merely an opinion that using the crown (which, BTW, exists for a reason) would do so.


To most reading your comments it's obvious and not worth telling you, but you may want to start with the most obvious movement that had constant failures from winding and go from there. It's called the Sellita SW-200-1, which was replaced by SW-200-2 because of winding system revisions from newbs winding their automatics all the time.

Edit - SW-200 was the original defective design and SW-200-1 is the updated one. SW-200-2 does not exist.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

Archer said:


> Next to water resistance related questions this whole thing about manually winding automatic watches being a "really bad idea" is probably the most overblown thing on WUS.
> 
> Manually winding the watch to start it is common practice, and recommended by just about every watch brand out there. Winding the watch to get it started from a stopped condition is not a problem - period.
> 
> ...


That's exactly how I get the SW200 in both Oris Pointer Dates running. Several turns of the big crown gets it running. And that's all the hand winding I've had to do if the watch is worn for several hours a day. I've worn rotor wound watches for years as a desk jockey and never had to "top them off" every morning.


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## one onety-one (Jul 20, 2020)

Robotaz said:


> We've seen what, dozens of threads about manual winding mechanisms failing prematurely on this forum over the past decade or so?
> 
> To each his own. Wind your automatics. I'll do what I do and not have to worry about them failing.


If 100 pastry chefs told you your car wasn't starting because the gas cap is loose, and one mechanic tells you it's because your fuel pump has gone bad, would you believe the pastry chefs more?


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Robotaz said:


> We've seen what, dozens of threads about manual winding mechanisms failing prematurely on this forum over the past decade or so?
> 
> To each his own. Wind your automatics. I'll do what I do and not have to worry about them failing.


You have seen dozens of people assume that the issue they have was caused by manual winding.

In an SW200, when the ratchet wheel teeth shear off, you are certainly going to feel it when you manually wind it. That doesn't mean the teeth sheared off during manual winding.

When the reversing wheel locks up, and the rotor starts spinning when you are manually winding it, that doesn't mean the problem was caused by manually winding it...

As I've said, excessive manual winding can certainly be a problem, but winding the watch through the crown to put an initial charge in it, as pretty much all manufacturers recommend, is not a problem. If you want to not wind your watches using the crown out of fear, that is your choice, but it really isn't the issue you believe it to be.

In all the many thousands of watches I've serviced, there are only maybe 2 that I can recall that were automatic watches with damage from excessive manual winding.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Archer said:


> You have seen dozens of people assume that the issue they have was caused by manual winding.
> 
> In an SW200, when the ratchet wheel teeth shear off, you are certainly going to feel it when you manually wind it. That doesn't mean the teeth sheared off during manual winding.
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing with you guys anymore. You know for a fact that there are two models (Sellita and ETA) that were known to crumble from manual winding.

Adios guys.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Robotaz said:


> I'm not arguing with you guys anymore.


Glad you have stopped arguing nonsense...


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

Archer said:


> Glad you have stopped arguing nonsense...


Archer,

Slightly off topic but can you explain why Oris chose to make the movement rotor uni-directional? What possible benefit is there in that?

J


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

JacobC said:


> Archer,
> 
> Slightly off topic but can you explain why Oris chose to make the movement rotor uni-directional? What possible benefit is there in that?
> 
> J


Although it seems counterintuitive, often a watch that winds in one direction only is more efficient. This is particularly true with wearers who are more sedentary, as many people tend to be these days.

When a watch winds in two directions, there is an angle that the rotor moves through where the mechanism is changing wind directions, and in this angle no winding occurs - this is known as the dead angle. If you have large movements of the rotor in both directions (an active wearer) then this is not normally an issue, because the amount of wind put into each wind direction before the rotor swings back the other way, is large enough to more than compensate for the lack of winding through the dead angle.

But if the rotor movements are quite small (a sedentary wearer) then much of the movement of the rotor is in that dead angle, and the watch will not wind efficiently. So some companies have researched this and decided that with people being more sedentary generally, winding in only one direction will be better then two.

Of course a lot of this is "the devil is in the details" of each specific winding system, but there is an extremely common movement on the market that winds in only one direction, and very rarely has issues maintaining the state of wind. That is the ETA 7750 - extremely efficient winding, and only in one direction.

In the case of the Cal. 400, well it seems that the design was not well thought out. The 7750 has, for it's size, a rather large mass in the winding rotor. As the video I posted points out, the Cal. 400 appears to have a rotor that is not up to the job of producing the torque required to fully wind it, even with being on a test diner (that winds constantly, so not like a consumer watch winder) for a 24 hour period.

Cheers, Al


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> We've seen what, dozens of threads about manual winding mechanisms failing prematurely on this forum over the past decade or so?
> 
> To each his own. Wind your automatics. I'll do what I do and not have to worry about them failing.


Feel free to read MY experience on this very topic:









Oris 65 Feels Tough to Wind??


So I've tested this again with my Sixty-Five. It ONLY feels like it does this (again, no way for me to know because I can't see the rotor doing it) once the movement is completely wound (I'm assuming completely wound because I have to sit there for a good minute or so winding away like there's...




www.watchuseek.com





I had assumed it was failure of the winding mechanism, just as most people did in that thread. In fact, it had NOTHING to do with any "failure" of a component at all. So my assumption was completely wrong, which I was basing on exactly what you're referencing - other threads on this forum.

Winding my automatics hasn't caused me any failures. So I'm not going to worry about mine failing either, at least from that activity. Not sure what your problem is - I can admit when I'm wrong. Obviously you can't. ?


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> Feel free to read MY experience on this very topic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can say you're right and I'm wrong. Most people who read this painful thread this far will research this very forum and form their own opinions on who is right or wrong and whether there's a concern or not. You clearly have not and that's fine. My only concern is that people listen to this ridiculous argument and don't just search this forum and do their own due diligence.

I'm sure you will have more to say. Please continue arguing. I really am done and just hope people answer the questions themselves using information right in front of them.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

Robotaz said:


> My only concern is that people listen to this ridiculous argument and don't just search this forum and do their own due diligence.


You mean this one?



Robotaz said:


> You know for a fact that there are two models (Sellita and ETA) that were known to crumble from manual winding.


Yes hopefully people do their due diligence on this, and consult their own watchmaker, or at the very least read the manual for their watches. If they do the latter, it will become evident that the brands provide zero warnings about movements "crumbling" and it's fine to wind the watch with the crown to get it started.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> You can say you're right and I'm wrong. Most people who read this painful thread this far will research this very forum and form their own opinions on who is right or wrong and whether there's a concern or not. You clearly have not and that's fine. My only concern is that people listen to this ridiculous argument and don't just search this forum and do their own due diligence.
> 
> I'm sure you will have more to say. Please continue arguing. I really am done and just hope people answer the questions themselves using information right in front of them.


Archer beat me to it, with:

_Yes hopefully people do their due diligence on this, and consult their own watchmaker, or at the very least read the manual for their watches._

I'll spell it out again: The manufacturer, the Service Centre, AND the owners manual ALL state the same thing, which is contradictory to what you're claiming. Yet, you insist that everyone believe you, instead...... You see where this is going, again ?


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> Archer beat me to it, with:
> 
> _Yes hopefully people do their due diligence on this, and consult their own watchmaker, or at the very least read the manual for their watches._
> 
> I'll spell it out again: The manufacturer, the Service Centre, AND the owners manual ALL state the same thing, which is contradictory to what you're claiming. Yet, you insist that everyone believe you, instead...... You see where this is going, again ?


I'm not insisting anyone believe me. You keep saying that and I've said repeatedly people should do their homework. You either cannot read and comprehend English or choose not to.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> I'm not insisting anyone believe me. You keep saying that and I've said repeatedly people should do their homework. You either cannot read and comprehend English or choose not to.


Yes. And "doing their homework" would mean read the owners manual, check with the manufacturer, and check with the service centre. Yet you are telling us we shouldn't believe those sources.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Yukoner1 said:


> Yes. And "doing their homework" would mean read the owners manual, check with the manufacturer, and check with the service centre. Yet you are telling us we shouldn't believe those sources.


Exactly. It's basically like someone saying "_I'm just saying_" which is a way to lob something out there and evade any particular accountability. 
I read the manuals for all my watches. It's just the responsible thing to do.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Ginseng108 said:


> Exactly. It's basically like someone saying "_I'm just saying_" which is a way to lob something out there and evade any particular accountability.
> I read the manuals for all my watches. It's just the responsible thing to do.


I just don't understand the obstinance. Three of the most trusted sources all tell us the same thing, but a dude on a forum with the user name "Robotaz" says otherwise, so he MUST be the one that's correct. It's just..... You know..... * smh *


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Yukoner1 said:


> I just don't understand the obstinance. Three of the most trusted sources all tell us the same thing, but a dude on a forum with the user name "Robotaz" says otherwise, so he MUST be the one that's correct. It's just..... You know..... * smh *


I just looked at your post history and get it now. You're telling people an automatic rotor shouldn't turn when you wind it, which literally all 40,000 WUS members know.

You do need to stick to the manual. Good thinking.


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Ginseng108 said:


> Exactly. It's basically like someone saying "_I'm just saying_" which is a way to lob something out there and evade any particular accountability.
> I read the manuals for all my watches. It's just the responsible thing to do.


But can you look at a dial and tell which movement it is and know from having owned possibly hundreds of them how to operate them and expect service issues and intervals? That's fine if you can't, but realize a lot of watch collectors can.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

Robotaz said:


> I just looked at your post history and get it now. You're telling people an automatic rotor shouldn't turn when you wind it, which literally all 40,000 WUS members know.
> 
> You do need to stick to the manual. Good thinking.


1) I never professed to be an expert in watchmaking and the mechanics of movements. I have learned a ton since starting this hobby, but I am by no means a proficient expert, nor have I ever claimed to be.

2) If you're talking about my observations on my Sixty-Five, then yes, I was spelling everything out. Remember that a lot of these threads are found by folks who are new to watches, or those who may simply not know much about them and are google'ing around for answers because something is wrong with theirs. What may seem to you as information that "anyone should know", may, in fact, not be known by those who are new, or not "into" this hobby.

3) Everyone _should_ stick to the manual. That's what it's there for. I'm assuming the manual for your car says to fill "x" quantity of engine oil ? You listen to that ? Or do you just throw in whatever comes to mind ?


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## ironcastle (Dec 20, 2013)

Yukoner1 said:


> 3) Everyone _should_ stick to the manual. That's what it's there for. I'm assuming the manual for your car says to fill "x" quantity of engine oil ? You listen to that ? Or do you just throw in whatever comes to mind ?


Now we are far off topic, when we are discussing engine oils. Never the less, before you take all what you read in the manuals as proof, what some of us have tried to bring forward, is that you should consider _why_ it was written as it was.

As for engines oils. Follow the service interval and everything will be fine. No. Thats not totally true. Why? Because the oils wear out over time. The additives die. Is this considered in the service life length? Yes. Is it a bad compromise? Yes. Would it be a too high cost and inconvenient else with a shorter service interval? Yes. But does the engine towards the end of the oil service interval suffer? Absolutely. It is a bad idea to follow the long service intervals. Soot, dead additives etc will shorten the life length of your engine. Thats a fact. Is this written in the service manual? No. But it's still true.

Conclusion: don't swallow all that is written w/o giving a thought of _why_ it was written as it was. There are different reasons for all, but there are always compromises in the picture. Some that you like. Some that you don't like.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

ironcastle said:


> before you take all what you read in the manuals as proof...you should consider _why_ it was written as it was.
> Conclusion: don't swallow all that is written w/o giving a thought of _why_ it was written as it was. There are different reasons for all, but there are always compromises in the picture. Some that you like. Some that you don't like.


The manual isn't proof. The manual is information and sometimes explanation. In other words, _what_, _how_, and, if lucky, a little bit of _why_.
As it is often the only documentation that comes with a watch, as far as the vast majority of owners, it can and should be considered definitive.
It's simply unrealistic to expect that the proper operation of a device require one to personally research basic operational aspects. 
As an engineer, I can tell you that what you like and don't like about a device or its instructions is irrelevant to the maintenance and operation the device.


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## Yukoner1 (Aug 26, 2019)

ironcastle said:


> Conclusion: don't swallow all that is written w/o giving a thought of _why_ it was written as it was. There are different reasons for all, but there are always compromises in the picture. Some that you like. Some that you don't like.


I don't disagree with you. But I'm not basing a conclusion on _just_ the manual.

I don't know why I need to keep saying this, but here it is again:

Owners Manual
Oris AD
Oris Service Centre

All *THREE *of these entities have confirmed what _each other_ is saying. I would consider _that_ sufficient evidence to base a conclusion on. Why is it so difficult for people to grasp that we're not just talking about the owners manual ?

As for your comment about engine oil service intervals - I specifically spoke to quantity of engine oil in quarts / liters. We can get into a different discussion on duty cycle, but that's besides the point.


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## ironcastle (Dec 20, 2013)

Yukoner1 said:


> I don't disagree with you. But I'm not basing a conclusion on _just_ the manual.
> 
> I don't know why I need to keep saying this, but here it is again:
> 
> ...


I think we have reached the end of this topic. Wish you a nice evening.


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