# Real History Behind Famous Zlatoust Diver Watches or Enough of Your Lie, Mr Invicta



## Silversen

*Real History Behind Famous Zlatoust Diver Watches or Enough of Your Lie, Mr Invicta

Настоящая история знаменитых подводных часов из Златоуста или хватит лгать, товарищ Invicta *

Original version of the article in Russian by Sergey Klimakov The Cheliabinsk Worker (Сергей Климаков, "Челябинский рабочий"):ÐœÐµÐ´Ð¸Ð° Ð-Ð°Ð²Ð¾Ð´ - Ð§ÐµÐ»Ñ�Ð±Ð¸Ð½Ñ�Ðº outside - Ð§ÐµÐ»Ñ�Ð±Ð¸Ð½Ñ�Ðº, Ð-Ð»Ð°Ñ‚Ð¾ÑƒÑ�Ñ‚, Ð˜Ð¼Ð¸Ð´Ð¶, Ð˜Ð¼Ð¿Ð¾Ñ€Ñ‚, Ð¤Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑ�Ð¸Ñ„Ð¸ÐºÐ°Ñ†Ð¸Ñ�, Ð'Ñ€ÐµÐ½Ð´

One day surfing the Internet I ran across the source where people were discussing which watches Arnold Schwarzenegger is wearing: Invicta watches or ones from Zlatoust and the only thing they had in common: everybody agreed that these watches sat on his wrist well, met his role as politician and the choice was far better then his previous provocative Audemars Piguet. In the whole world Schwarzenegger has begun the best walking advertisement for Russian diver watches. As many know Arnold Schwarzenegger began to show preference to "Russian Divers" about two years ago. He often appears with his watch on the wrist in public and gives interviews. This watch looks really impressive on his huge wrist. "Terminator" has raised the popularity of "Russian Divers" and, accordingly, the popularity for the city of Zlatoust and how! If you google "Zlatoust knives" you get 25.000 responds against about 40,000 if you google "Zlatoust watches".

I had often paid attention to watches looking like old Soviet diver watches from Zlatoust and, of course, I knew that a Swiss company, Invicta, produced such type of watchess called "Russian Diver". I read their story about their watches which only raised a lot of questions in my mind.

As I'm from Urals and the name Zlatoust means much for me, I began thinking about Zlatoust Watch Factory, Schwarzenegger, and Invicta and how that all is tied together. I'm not only from Urals, but I'm a journalist working in Urals region. A strong decision occurred in my mind to find all possible answers to my questions. So, I went to Zlatoust Watch Factory with all my questions. Now listen what information I've found out.

In 1950s and 60s Zlatoust watch plant apart from other interesting products were producing 191-ChS watches for the Soviet Navy divers. Without any exaggeration, these watches are something unique! It's the largest watches in the world: diameter (without the crown) is about 60 millimeters, the weight is 250 grams. Massive stainless steel case is very complicated, but it's meant to be undestroyable on principle. And the most exotic thing about the watch is that it was produced with the use of radioactive materials! To achieve luminous effect, digits on the dial were covered with radium salt. Watches indicated a high level of radioactivity: the Geiger counter went beyond 8.000 (!) microroentgen per hour. Just for comparison: the natural level of radioactivity amounts 15-30 microroentgen and the permissible level of radiation for the housing accommodation must not exceed 60 microroentgen. But such a high level of radioactivity wasn't a technological miscalculation. For high intensity of dispersion of gamma-rays the level of radioactivity at the distance of 10-12 centimeters equals only 200 microroentgen per hour and if the distance is over 1 meter the emission of radioactive elements equals natural. Such a huge watch didn't feel comfortable to wear on the wrist but if the watch is on sleeve of the diver suit with dial positioned outside then the radioactivity hardly exerts harmful influence on the diver.

The production of these unique watches was stopped in the first half of 1970s. Since that time they have became a real legend. These watches and the legend behind them were especially popular abroad USSR and then Russia. Most evidently the story of Russian navy divers wearing radioactive watches seemed to be unbelievable and therefore especially attractive and intriguing. On the other hand, the soviet military watches have always been popular in the Western countries and around the world.

You can ask: but where is a mention about Invicta? Nowhere. There is no place for Invicta in the real history behind Zlatoust diver watches.

Of course, it is not accidental that in 2003 Invicta watch company began to promote their watch line called "Russian Diver" and made them in the same style as famous Zlatoust 191-ChS diver watches. As for the purposefulness of Invicta watches, they are sooner decorative then really functional ones seriously being inferior to Zlatoust 191-ChS ones in this point.

Invicta is a Swiss watch company and is well-known from the middle of XIX century. In 1991 it was bought by American businessmen, who worked out and began to promote a very aggressive marketing strategy for the brand.

The tall tale, which was chosen for promoting the so-called "Russian Diver" style line was very interesting. They alleged that in 1959 the USSR Navy General Headquarters chose Invicta as the best among other Swiss watch companies and, thus, the company was commissioned to make a limited edition of 100 diver watches whether as prize watches for the best Navy divers or to compare the quality of Swiss watches to that of Soviet ones. As for the design, they say that the style of these watches was discovered among documents belonging to grandmother of Eyal Lalo, the president of Invicta. According to their words, that old sample thoroughly and improved was the only real prototype of all diver watches made in Zlatoust. And that's why, as they conclude, Invicta have moral rights to produce watches of this style. Of course, not a single document or other serous evidence was introduced in order to prove it. All the respected specialists display irony towards their tall tale.

Even the inscription on the dial of so-called "Russian Divers", written intentionally (or maybe just through ignorance?) with glaring mistake as «ИМФ СССР» instead of «ВМФ СССР», indirectly can show non-participation in creating real Zlatoust diver watches. This type of a "mistake" is often used by the pirate companies stealing other companies` ideas.

However, all that doesn't prevent Invicta from selling thousands of watches because their advertising strategy is worked out to have influence on average men which first buy a watch and then interest about its authenticity.

Nowadays, the Invicta Russian Diver line numbers about thirty different models at the price range between $150 to $2.000 ad the basic model of this line, a copy of the real Zlatoust diver watch remains Model 2625 with the price at $600.

Invicta actively promote their watches through Internet sale sites and ShopNBC TV channel.
Perfectly planned and methodically carried out, this strategy yields excellent results. Popularity of their so-called "Russian Divers" has greatly increased. This success has attracted Invicta competitors. And first of them all are Chinese "pirates", absolute evil for all brands. Guys from Invicta don't conceal that their "Russian Divers" are being officially produced in South Eastern Asia with slight usage of Swiss and American components. And naturally as a second wave, a wide stream of primitive "Russian Divers" fakes appears now here and there.

Secondly, smart fellows from Russia are also not idle and have joined in with this trend to get their tasty morsel from the pie called "Russian Diver". They unscrupulously use not only the legend of Zlatoust 191-ChS watches but also the name of the factory itself. They have been selling their fakes mainly to foreigners through the Internet and traditional watch shops in Moscow and Saint Petersburg, advertising them as authentic 191-ChS. They are almost equal to the real Zlatoust 191-ChS in size (1-2 mm smaller) but not in quality. Their fakes have serial number and "ВМФ СССР" logo on the dial and the back cover. A certificate with the "ОТК" mark with the "Не радиоактивно/No Radiation" stamp is applied to the watch. There is the inscriptions «Заказ Министерства обороны СССР» and «Златоусовский часовой завод» (where the letter "Т" in the word "Златоустовский" omitted intentionally).

The secret of new fake Zlatoust diver watches from Saint Petersburg discovered one of the members of WWII collectors' forum: Here is a citation from his post in this forum:

" &#8230; It`s even not a modern replica, just souvenir products having nothing to do with the USSR except the case of the watch. It's a "made in Saint Petersburg" watch made in 2005-07 years. The movement is from Molnija pocket watch and, how it is abovementioned, they often break down. I am acquainted with the author of this "project". By the way, if you have the box for this watch you can read on it: Златоусовский часовой завод (try to find lost letter!). The author thinks that if in case of any problem for him, this trick can save him. First time he was writing right: Златоустовский, then somebody advised him to do so." As you know this trick is usual for a "pirate".

Apparently, this smart fellow from Saint Petersburg has expanded the collection of his "Divers" up to 13 models at average cost of $350 and his business is going on well.


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## Silversen

Besides fake Zlatoust Diver watches, the 191-ЧС mark can be noticed on watches under well-known brands "Чайка" (Chayka) and "Полет" (Poljot). These diver watches are 10-12 mm smaller then real Zlatoust ones. Whether they are just a home-made imitation or some of Russian plants responds to the trend we haven't managed to learn.

After all that, a logical question appears: does anybody at Zlatoust Watch Factory itself remember about their perspective legacy? Happily, the answer is yes. As I have learnt, thanks to the initiative of Victor Fironov, new General Director of ZChZ, who filled this position as long as one year and a half, the production of a new version of the famous 191-ChS has been renewed and got new index - 192-ChS. And now real Zlatoust Russian diver watches can be bought only from the site of the factory. According to Sergey Fedotov, the Chief of Marketing and External Economic Links Department, the technological task to renew the watch wasn't a simple one. The luminous effect of the dial and the hands was improved by using non-radioactive luminous mass. It was decided to use another movement of better quality and new rubberized fabric for straps. Some more changes into the design of the watch have been made in order to produce as high quality watches as possible. Anyway these modern Zlatoust divers remain nevertheless genuine Zlatoust diver watches as they were in the time of the USSR - functional (allowing to dive much more then 100 meters deep), reliable (the case as before of the hardest stainless steel) and legendary. By the moment they have produced a limited edition and they are not cheap.

Some of them were presented by the management of the plant to our famous and well-know around the world scientist, Polar researcher and State Duma deputy Artur Chelingarov and they say that a very V.I. Person tried a new Zlatoust Diver on his right hand and we can be sure if this person appears with the watch on public at least one time, ZChZ will be supplied with orders for long.

It's known that among Russian people there is the only person which Arnold Schwarzenegger is acquainted with very well and who he is in sympathy with. This person is a strongman Mikhail Koklyaev. Since 2006 Mikhail has participated many times in Arnold Classic Competition. I hope he will take part in the competition next year too. I wonder what if the management of ZChZ could try to send their 100% genuine new Zlatoust 192-ChS to Arnie through Mikhail. Let's see it.

The news from ZChZ and comments: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zlatoust-diver-watches-official-site-agat-watch-factory-430541.html


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## pwalsh21

Fascinating stuff, Silversen! Thank you so much for translating this and posting it here.


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## Seele

pwalsh21 said:


> Fascinating stuff, Silversen! Thank you so much for translating this and posting it here.


+1 :-! :thanks


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## pyjujiop

Not that I ever believed a word that Eyal Lalo ever said about his Chinese divers, but I'm sure he never expected someone to visit Zlatoust and find out the truth. Thanks for posting this, it was nice to learn the history behind the real Russian diver.

I don't know why Invicta couldn't just be content to produce homages of the Zlatoust diver without the cockamamie story. After all, they've been making Rolex knock-offs for the years and don't try to claim they had anything to do with the real thing.

The first time I saw one, I noticed "ИМФ СССР" and immediately knew that to be wrong.

If I want a Russian diver, I'll buy it from Russians, not Invicta.


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## michele

Interesting article with lot of useful stuff! |>
Some informations must be verified though - for example, i never heard of Chayka copies of that watch :-s and several things still make me puzzled.

Some parts from the article:



> In 1950s and 60s Zlatoust watch plant apart from other interesting products were producing 191-ChS watches for the Soviet Navy divers. (...) And the most exotic thing about the watch is that it was produced with the use of radioactive materials!


I remember that some time ago ago i was crucified by some people because i was saying that early Zlatoust divers had radium paint. They said "Do you have any proof?" and i have said: "No, i have simply seen them around". I received lot of criticism for that. Following pics and proofs proved that, and the article finally confirms a quite common thought.



> The production of these unique watches was stopped in the first half of 1970s.


Indeed, i would prefer more precise dates, also in order to separate the different series. Also, it would be useful to make a database of the original papers by the owners.



> Secondly, smart fellows from Russia are also not idle and have joined in with this trend to get their tasty morsel from the pie called "Russian Diver". They unscrupulously use not only the legend of Zlatoust 191-ChS watches but also the name of the factory itself. They have been selling their fakes mainly to foreigners through the Internet and traditional watch shops in Moscow and Saint Petersburg, advertising them as authentic 191-ChS. They are almost equal to the real Zlatoust 191-ChS in size (1-2 mm smaller) but not in quality. Their fakes have serial number and "ВМФ СССР" logo on the dial and the back cover. A certificate with the "ОТК" mark with the "Не радиоактивно/No Radiation" stamp is applied to the watch. There is the inscriptions «Заказ Министерства обороны СССР» and «Златоусовский часовой завод» (where the letter "Т" in the word "Златоустовский" omitted intentionally).


So finally we have a supposed origin for those watches - St. Petersburg. 
So, are the cases made in St. Petersburg? Or it is mentioned only as favourite market place for those products?

Anyway, this is the most generic part of the article. I have a 58mm, stainless-steel version, and it's 2 mm smaller than the "flat bezel" 60 mm model (the only original watch mentioned by the factory), exactly like the brass-made ones. And the movement is Zlatoust, not Molnija. All the informations about the fake certificate (fake year, fake OTK, etc) are well-known since years, except the "Златоусовский" without "T".

Probably the missing letter is a recent trick, but this is not enough to recognize an original 191-ChS. For sure, reissues and originals have different box colors.



> The secret of new fake Zlatoust diver watches from Saint Petersburg discovered one of the members of WWII collectors' forum: Here is a citation from his post in this forum:
> 
> " &#8230; It`s even not a modern replica, just souvenir products having nothing to do with the USSR *except the case of the watch*."


I always thought that, although it was made in brass and not in SS, that case has the same dimensions and same parts of the original one. 
So was the brass case made in USSR? And who made it? :think:



> It's a "made in Saint Petersburg" watch made in 2005-07 years. The movement is from Molnija pocket watch and, how it is abovementioned, they often break down.


2005-2007...i had one of those watches for a while, from 2004 untill the past year, but it was pre-owned and i guess that that production was started even years before.

The movement was standard Molnija and it does not break. Chrome is bad, mine had already signs of chrome loss, although it was used probably very few times. But everything else had a striking resemblence with the original one (i'm talking about early copies).

So we have a "St. Petersburg" trace |> at least we know the origin of that market (still not sure about the production, but it's true that later copies -included the Invicta- have very few traces of the original layout, so it is possible that the case has been definitively replicated elsewhere.



> By the way, if you have the box for this watch you can read on it: Златоусовский часовой завод (try to find lost letter!). The author thinks that if in case of any problem for him, this trick can save him. First time he was writing right: Златоустовский, then somebody advised him to do so.


This is 100% right. Here is the box of the 2004 chrome-plated copy. The "t" ("m" in Cyrillic, please correct if i'm wrong) is in its place.












Silversen said:


> Besides fake Zlatoust Diver watches, the 191-ЧС mark can be noticed on watches under well-known brands "Чайка" (Chayka) and "Полет" (Poljot). These diver watches are 10-12 mm smaller then real Zlatoust ones. Whether they are just a home-made imitation or some of Russian plants responds to the trend we haven't managed to learn.


Never heard of diver watches made/branded by Chayka or Poljot :-s:-s:-s 
Probably the articles refers to Moscow Classic - as already said many times, those are not Poljot and anyway the model is probably called "Vodolaz". It's totally different from the Zlatoust, and it can't be considered as fake, not an home-made imitation, although the style is the same. 
The curious thing is that the Moscow Classic Vodolaz is claimed to have imitations as well - definitely a source of headaches. :roll:



> As I have learnt, thanks to the initiative of Victor Fironov, new General Director of ZChZ, who filled this position as long as one year and a half, the production of a new version of the famous 191-ChS has been renewed and got new index - 192-ChS. And now real Zlatoust Russian diver watches can be bought only from the site of the factory. According to Sergey Fedotov, the Chief of Marketing and External Economic Links Department, the technological task to renew the watch wasn't a simple one. The luminous effect of the dial and the hands was improved by using non-radioactive luminous mass. It was decided to use another movement of better quality and new rubberized fabric for straps. Some more changes into the design of the watch have been made in order to produce as high quality watches as possible. Anyway these modern Zlatoust divers remain nevertheless genuine Zlatoust diver watches as they were in the time of the USSR - functional (allowing to dive much more then 100 meters deep), reliable (the case as before of the hardest stainless steel) and legendary. By the moment they have produced a limited edition and they are not cheap.


This is a positive fact, especially if it begins to be a "real" production (not only 20 pieces), albeit limited in quantity. The next 50 pieces are a good sign. Rubberized fabric was already in use on original and copies too (copies did nto have leather straps). I would expect a thicker strap with a more consistent appearance. 
I'm quite puzzled about the choice of a Vostok movement, it is extremely small in comparison with the case :think: Considering that the production is still very limited, a stock Molnija would be the best choice, probably some of them are still around, although the Chelyabinsk factory was closed time ago. 100M rating is not impressive for a watch like that, but i guess it's a prudential data, as already seen before with other similar watches.

Anyway, i think that if they will produce the 192-Chs in constant way, it will be a success for the factory. |>


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## Silversen

michele said:


> Interesting article with lot of useful stuff! |>
> Some informations must be verified though - for example, i never heard of Chayka copies of that watch :-s and several things still make me puzzled.
> 
> Some parts from the article:
> 
> I remember that some time ago ago i was crucified by some people because i was saying that early Zlatoust divers had radium paint. They said "Do you have any proof?" and i have said: "No, i have simply seen them around". I received lot of criticism for that. Following pics and proofs proved that, and the article finally confirms a quite common thought.
> 
> Indeed, i would prefer more precise dates, also in order to separate the different series. Also, it would be useful to make a database of the original papers by the owners.
> 
> So finally we have a supposed origin for those watches - St. Petersburg.
> So, are the cases made in St. Petersburg? Or it is mentioned only as favourite market place for those products?
> 
> Anyway, this is the most generic part of the article. I have a 58mm, stainless-steel version, and it's 2 mm smaller than the "flat bezel" 60 mm model (the only original watch mentioned by the factory), exactly like the brass-made ones. And the movement is Zlatoust, not Molnija. All the informations about the fake certificate (fake year, fake OTK, etc) are well-known since years, except the "Златоусовский" without "T".
> 
> Probably the missing letter is a recent trick, but this is not enough to recognize an original 191-ChS. For sure, reissues and originals have different box colors.
> 
> I always thought that, although it was made in brass and not in SS, that case has the same dimensions and same parts of the original one.
> So was the brass case made in USSR? And who made it? :think:
> 
> 2005-2007...i had one of those watches for a while, from 2004 untill the past year, but it was pre-owned and i guess that that production was started even years before.
> 
> The movement was standard Molnija and it does not break. Chrome is bad, mine had already signs of chrome loss, although it was used probably very few times. But everything else had a striking resemblence with the original one (i'm talking about early copies).
> 
> So we have a "St. Petersburg" trace |> at least we know the origin of that market (still not sure about the production, but it's true that later copies -included the Invicta- have very few traces of the original layout, so it is possible that the case has been definitively replicated elsewhere.
> 
> This is 100% right. Here is the box of the 2004 chrome-plated copy. The "t" ("m" in Cyrillic, please correct if i'm wrong) is in its place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never heard of diver watches made/branded by Chayka or Poljot :-s:-s:-s
> Probably the articles refers to Moscow Classic - as already said many times, those are not Poljot and anyway the model is probably called "Vodolaz". It's totally different from the Zlatoust, and it can't be considered as fake, not an home-made imitation, although the style is the same.
> The curious thing is that the Moscow Classic Vodolaz is claimed to have imitations as well - definitely a source of headaches. :roll:
> 
> This is a positive fact, especially if it begins to be a "real" production (not only 20 pieces), albeit limited in quantity. The next 50 pieces are a good sign. Rubberized fabric was already in use on original and copies too (copies did nto have leather straps). I would expect a thicker strap with a more consistent appearance.
> I'm quite puzzled about the choice of a Vostok movement, it is extremely small in comparison with the case :think: Considering that the production is still very limited, a stock Molnija would be the best choice, probably some of them are still around, although the Chelyabinsk factory was closed time ago. 100M rating is not impressive for a watch like that, but i guess it's a prudential data, as already seen before with other similar watches.
> 
> Anyway, i think that if they will produce the 192-Chs in constant way, it will be a success for the factory. |>


Grazie, mio caro amico Michele, per il tuo commento!

I hope you understand that I only translated this article, so unfortunately I can`t give you more information. But I`m sure finally we will find all the answers we want to.


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## Chascomm

I posted a link to the article on another forum. I think you can guess which one ;-) Not mentioning the name of course, but it is run by ShopNBC and bankrolled by Invicta. Not surprisingly the discussion quickly became heated. Not my intention at all :-x

According to the great Jim himself, the story is (and apparently always has been :-x) that the factory in Zlatoust designed and built the original _without_ any input from Invicta, but in 1959 the Soviet navy directly approached Invicta to produce a special all-Swiss version of that design, for a limited issue of 100 pieces to senior officers. Invicta claim to posess two of the originals. One at the Florida office and the other (the grandmother's watch) in the private collection of Eyal Lalo. They have been shown on the ShopNBC show 'on many occasions' several years ago and footage is being sought to allay the suspicions of the doubters.

Comments?


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## michele

Chascomm said:


> According to the great Jim himself, the story is (and apparently always has been :-x) that the factory in Zlatoust designed and built the original _without_ any input from Invicta, but in 1959 the Soviet navy directly approached Invicta to produce a special all-Swiss version of that design, for a limited issue of 100 pieces to senior officers. Invicta claim to posess two of the originals. One at the Florida office and the other (the grandmother's watch) in the private collection of Eyal Lalo. They have been shown on the ShopNBC show 'on many occasions' several years ago and footage is being sought to allay the suspicions of the doubters.
> Comments?


Wow, do they collaborated in so intense way, exactly during the worst period of the Cold War? Mmmmh... :-s

No need of footage - we are simple people and we would appreciate from them at least some pics of the alleged, original Invicta, if it's existing. Not an hard task, i think.

Anyway, i was figuring the senior officers with the "bling-bling" Invicta on their wrists...and, why not, with a Flava Flav-style clock on the chest... :-x:-x:-x


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## Chascomm

michele said:


> Anyway, i was figuring the senior officers with the "bling-bling" Invicta on their wrists...and, why not, with a Flava Flav-style clock on the chest... :-x:-x:-x


...or the famous 'Bling Diver' (aka The Yellow Submarine)










Can't you just picture one of those high-level meetings between NATO and Soviet top brass. Just shaking hands while wearing one of those would come across as intimidation.


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## michele

Chascomm said:


> ...or the famous 'Bling Diver' (aka The Yellow Submarine)


Too bad they did not made them in real solid gold (instead of the gold-colour coating). 
Today the price of the gold is increasing. :-x


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## Silversen

Chascomm said:


> ...or the famous 'Bling Diver' (aka The Yellow Submarine)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you just picture one of those high-level meetings between NATO and Soviet top brass. Just shaking hands while wearing one of those would come across as intimidation.


Friends, if guys from Invicta insist on their version where are their documents confirming it? They can make hundreds of watches and claim that those watches made in the time of USSR. Who is going to make an examination of those timepieces? A timepiece can not be evidence.

They couldn't cooperate with both the supreme officers of the USSR Navy and Zlatoust watch factory without concluding treaties with them. Only legitimate documents which must signed by real historic persons and stamped in the right way can be real evidence.


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## Chascomm

Silversen said:


> Friends, if guys from Invicta insist on their version where are their documents confirming it? They can make hundreds of watches and claim that those watches made in the time of USSR. Who is going to make an examination of those timepieces? A timepiece can not be evidence.
> 
> They couldn't cooperate with both the supreme officers of the USSR Navy and Zlatoust watch factory without concluding treaties with them. Only legitimate documents which must signed by real historic persons and stamped in the right way can be real evidence.


I agree, however at this stage it does not look like such documentation is likely to be found.

For the moment, the best evidence seems to be screen captures of any of the several appearances of allegedly one of the original 1959 Invitas on the ShopNBC TV show. So far what has been shown looks like one of the replicas. Jim Skelton's response is as follows:

"The picture on the screen cap is of the second one Eyal has shown. We have never discussed between us where he got that one.

Is it identical to the original we used to show on-air in 04? Not sure, never saw them side by side to compare. All I do know is that the one shown in 04 was one of the original 1959 Invicta produced, Swiss versions of the RD design that Eyal got from his grandmother."

Searches for footage from the 2004 episode are continuing, and Invicta enthusiasts are calling for the original watch to be shown publicly again.


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## roo7

The above is posted on another forum from kinaed, it's obviously a tourist re-make. <|

I don't wish to link it directly but googling "191-ЧС milestone" will get a hit


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## michele

I have read some posts from the Invicta forum. Here is a quote from the Invicta company's website:



> Eyal Lalo (President & CEO of Invicta Watch) was given one of the original Russian Divers by his grandmother and has decided to use that for a basis for this design. Completely replicating this original took a lot of work by creating this one-off oversized case, and unique vintage dial. The original was carefully taken apart so that every part of it could be inspected, measured, and replicated as closely as possible. Invicta has surpassed the original by utilizing a stronger compound of Tritnite luminescent material on the dial, and a completely reworked and skeletonized Swiss Unitas movement. All of the work was performed in their newly built Swiss factory and it exhibits all of the finish and quality of any high end Swiss Made product.


Then i have read this company's description with exhaustive pics, Invicta Russian Diver Model 2625

IMHO Invicta does not share a single piece with a Zlatoust watch, in any version. 
The case is totally redesigned, and it's not "replicated as closely as possible". Crown cap is different, dial is different, the whole case body has a different layout. If that's a faithful copy of a supposed original Invicta watch from 1959, they took a lot of "free inspiration". :-s

Anyway, as usual, it's a real mess. The cases of the early watches (not the later ones) made by the "street watchmakers" from St. Petersburg are strikingly similar to the original 58 mm version - maybe made with original toolings, but they are claimed to be original Zlatoust from 1976 (and they aren't). 
The Invicta does not share a single piece with the original, but they are claimed to be even tied with the original Zlatoust from 1959 (and they aren't).

In this mess, whatever is the truth, the Zlatoust factory should produce the new ChS-192 without hesitations.


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## Silversen

roo7 said:


> The above is posted on another forum from kinaed, it's obviously a tourist re-make. <|
> 
> I don't wish to link it directly but googling "191-ЧС milestone" will get a hit


Isn`t it hillarious?!

Why have they shown real documents as undeniable arguments and keeps showing questionable timepieces instead? If they had shown real documents it would a really strong argument.

The Soviet system was too bureaucratic. Only the supreme members of the Central Committee of the USSR Communist Party could advance such ideas and approve such kind of a deal. It's absolutely unbelievable that they don't have any contract documents or any agreements concluded between Invicta and representatives of the USSR Navy or Zlatoust watch factory. Moreover, if somebody on the West thinks that a Swiss watch company could have contacts easily to either organization in the USSR in the condition of the Iron Curtain that person just show his total incompetence.

The Soviet economical system was subordinate to political ideology where the main goal is to "overtake and surpass" western countries and to prove that the Soviet system is the best.

Secondly, if a competition to create such type of a watch was really announced there must have been a chosen committee. In case of a competitive tender was announced what other Swiss companies took parts in it? What historic persons were members of that committee?

When, where did Invicta guys meet USSR representatives? Who were those representatives? What were their names and what were the ranks of those persons?

Until they answer those questions and post copies of the documents in the Internet, they will remain just liars.

Michael, put questions before them and insist on getting answers! 
If they post copies of any documents we will be able to make an examination of them.


----------



## Silversen

Chascomm said:


> ...or the famous 'Bling Diver' (aka The Yellow Submarine)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't you just picture one of those high-level meetings between NATO and Soviet top brass. Just shaking hands while wearing one of those would come across as intimidation.


I'm thinking about this posted watch and the combination of a diver watch and gold-plate coating make me puzzled.

Could you just imaging a high-ranking officer of the Soviet Navy in his full dress Navy uniform with a watch like this on his wrist? Of course, no.
What are it made for then? For diving? No.

If you remember the Hollywood movie "Armageddon" with starring Bruce Willis, you remember how the Soviet cosmonaut was presented: drunk in dirty undershirt with earflapped fur hat on. So, this watch for me is another example of an inadequate view on the watch for the Soviet Navy officer.


----------



## Niccolo

Silversen said:


> Could you just imaging a high-ranking officer of the Soviet Navy in his full dress Navy uniform with a watch like this on his wrist? Of course, no.
> What are it made for then? For diving? No.


For wearing during Carnival!!

Sorry, couldn't resist!


----------



## Chascomm

My favorite post so far from the Russian Diver discussion over at WG:

"A interesting thread and some good info. Being a ShopNbc watcher, Invicta collector for 10 years now, what Jim is saying on how this watch and it's background story were presented has never changed. I guess what some are doubting is the story true about Eyal's grandma and if it ever happened. Here's a few more Invicta stories to look up on the quest for Invicta knowledge. Did you know that Eyal Lalo actually beat Geraldo Rivera to Al Capones vault and took the stash and used the money to re-start Invicta. That Eyal's grandfather worked at Roswell at Area 51 and freed an alien from testing, which is why Invicta now has such easy and cheap access to Meteorite. Eyal has found a community of Bigfoots and uses them for product testing, which explains the larger size watches. Eyal knows where the Loch Ness monster is and is the basis of the SubAqua logo and series of dive watches. Reports are he actually used Nessie to take the SubAqua IV down to the depths for authentic testing. Eyal knows where Amelia Earhart is and they are going to collaborate on the ultimate pilots watch, but this is very hush hush. And most important Eyal has discovered the secrets of the Bermuda Triangle. Which he has used to make many of our disposable incomes disappear without a trace. Is any of this true. Who knows? It is the internet isn't it!"


----------



## Silversen

Chascomm said:


> My favorite post so far from the Russian Diver discussion over at WG:
> 
> "A interesting thread and some good info. Being a ShopNbc watcher, Invicta collector for 10 years now, what Jim is saying on how this watch and it's background story were presented has never changed. I guess what some are doubting is the story true about Eyal's grandma and if it ever happened. Here's a few more Invicta stories to look up on the quest for Invicta knowledge. Did you know that Eyal Lalo actually beat Geraldo Rivera to Al Capones vault and took the stash and used the money to re-start Invicta. That Eyal's grandfather worked at Roswell at Area 51 and freed an alien from testing, which is why Invicta now has such easy and cheap access to Meteorite. Eyal has found a community of Bigfoots and uses them for product testing, which explains the larger size watches. Eyal knows where the Loch Ness monster is and is the basis of the SubAqua logo and series of dive watches. Reports are he actually used Nessie to take the SubAqua IV down to the depths for authentic testing. Eyal knows where Amelia Earhart is and they are going to collaborate on the ultimate pilots watch, but this is very hush hush. And most important Eyal has discovered the secrets of the Bermuda Triangle. Which he has used to make many of our disposable incomes disappear without a trace. Is any of this true. Who knows? It is the internet isn't it!"


:-d:-!


----------



## michele

> Did you know that Eyal Lalo actually beat Geraldo Rivera to Al Capones vault and took the stash and used the money to re-start Invicta. That Eyal's grandfather worked at Roswell at Area 51 and freed an alien from testing, which is why Invicta now has such easy and cheap access to Meteorite. (...)


Not exactly in this way. Here are some quotes from the designers of the original Invicta diver watch of the years '50s:

*About the origin of the watch: *

_*Igor*: My grandfather used to work for your grandfather. Of course the rates have gone up._

*About the early stages of the project: *

_*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*: For the experiment to be a success, all of the body parts must be enlarged. 
*Inga*_ _: His veins, his feet, his hands, his organs vould all have to be increased in size. 
*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*_ _: Exactly. 
*Inga*_ _: He vould have an enormous schwanzstucker. 
*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*_ _: That goes without saying. 
*Inga*_ _: Voof. 
*Igor*_ _: He's going to be very popular. 
_ 
*
Again about the origin of the watch:

*_*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*: And it was you... who left my grandfather's book out for me to find. 
*Frau Blücher*: Yes. 
*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*: So that I would... 
*Frau Blücher*: Yes. 
*Dr. Frederick Frankenstein*: Then you and Victor were... 
*Frau Blücher*: YES. YES. Say it. He vas my... BOYFRIEND.

_(just kidding - the Invicta diver watch is not a Frankenwatch of course.  Credits to IMDB.com b-) )


----------



## Silversen

*Some Facts About Zlatoust Diver Watches*

During the WWII, the factory produced 127 thousand aviation clocks, 77 thousand tank clocks, 45 thousand artillery instruments, 75 million ammunition parts. The Zlatoust clocks were in 73 per cent of the Soviet tanks.

In peace time the factory began to produce table clocks, pocket watches, stop-watches, timers, etc. In the beginning of the 60s the Soviet Ministry of Defense made a request for creating watches for the Soviet Navy military divers. For want of time the factory had no possibility to create a new watch movement. So, it was decided to use the tank 43 mm one. The Soviet Navy high command, understanding difficulties of the watchmakers, accepted the new 60 mm diameter watch for their divers. New technical conditions ТУ-25-09-237-69 (ТУ - технические условия in Russian) were elaborated and coordinated with the commander of the military diver unit. After that about 6 thousand watches have been issued (the watch ordinal number is stated on the back of the watch).


----------



## roo7

Thanks for the info !

Wow and I never seen this before.










With their factory logo on the case.


----------



## deep blue

Wow, thank you very much for your time, effort and interests in sharing.

Very interesting.


----------



## deep blue

I have seen these WITHOUT the factory stamp, just the number.

Also on a greenish grey strap, and what appears to be some dots or flaws on dial between the 3 and 4 oclock.

Are those genuine?

They are supposed to date to 1959 or 1960.

I would appreciate your thought on these examples.

DB



Silversen said:


> *Some Facts About Zlatoust Diver Watches*
> 
> During the WWII, the factory produced 127 thousand aviation clocks, 77 thousand tank clocks, 45 thousand artillery instruments, 75 million ammunition parts. The Zlatoust clocks were in 73 per cent of the Soviet tanks.
> 
> In peace time the factory began to produce table clocks, pocket watches, stop-watches, timers, etc. In the beginning of the 60s the Soviet Ministry of Defense made a request for creating watches for the Soviet Navy military divers. For want of time the factory had no possibility to create a new watch movement. So, it was decided to use the tank 43 mm one. The Soviet Navy high command, understanding difficulties of the watchmakers, accepted the new 60 mm diameter watch for their divers. New technical conditions ТУ-25-09-237-69 (ТУ - технические условия in Russian) were elaborated and coordinated with the commander of the military diver unit. After that about 6 thousand watches have been issued (the watch ordinal number is stated on the back of the watch).


----------



## ecalzo

wow wow wow interesting reading here.... thanks :-!


----------



## Scott Woodson

pyjujiop said:


> Not that I ever believed a word that Eyal Lalo ever said about his Chinese divers, but I'm sure he never expected someone to visit Zlatoust and find out the truth. Thanks for posting this, it was nice to learn the history behind the real Russian diver.
> 
> I don't know why Invicta couldn't just be content to produce homages of the Zlatoust diver without the cockamamie story. After all, they've been making Rolex knock-offs for the years and don't try to claim they had anything to do with the real thing.
> 
> The first time I saw one, I noticed "ИМФ СССР" and immediately knew that to be wrong.
> 
> If I want a Russian diver, I'll buy it from Russians, not Invicta.


On a forum some time ago, a member translated Invicta's incorrect Russian, and it was comical, if I remember correctly.

Can you translate Invicta's version?

Thank you, Scott


----------



## Silversen

Scott Woodson said:


> On a forum some time ago, a member translated Invicta's incorrect Russian, and it was comical, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Can you translate Invicta's version?
> 
> Thank you, Scott


The mistake can`t be translated. As you already know the abbreviation in Russian must be "ВМФ" - translated in English as simply "Navy".

How did they get "ИМФ" instead of "ВМФ"? I understood how. The Invicta worker typed the Latin "B" on the keyboard, when the Russian language was on, and got "И". That`s how.


----------



## Scott Woodson

Silversen said:


> The mistake can`t be translated. As you already know the abbreviation in Russian must be "ВМФ" - translated in English as simply "Navy".
> 
> How did they get "ИМФ" instead of "ВМФ"? I understood how. The Invicta worker were typing the Latin "B" on the keyboard, when the Russian language was on, and got "И". That`s how.


Thank you


----------



## deep blue

Would appreciate the courtesy of a response on this quick question, as it seems the authority on these watches is here on WUS:

I have seen these WITHOUT the factory stamp, just the number.

Also on a greenish grey strap, and what appears to be some dots or flaws on dial between the 3 and 4 oclock.

Are those genuine?

They are supposed to date to 1959 or 1960.

I would appreciate your thought on these examples.

DB



Silversen said:


> *Some Facts About Zlatoust Diver Watches*
> 
> During the WWII, the factory produced 127 thousand aviation clocks, 77 thousand tank clocks, 45 thousand artillery instruments, 75 million ammunition parts. The Zlatoust clocks were in 73 per cent of the Soviet tanks.
> 
> In peace time the factory began to produce table clocks, pocket watches, stop-watches, timers, etc. In the beginning of the 60s the Soviet Ministry of Defense made a request for creating watches for the Soviet Navy military divers. For want of time the factory had no possibility to create a new watch movement. So, it was decided to use the tank 43 mm one. The Soviet Navy high command, understanding difficulties of the watchmakers, accepted the new 60 mm diameter watch for their divers. New technical conditions ТУ-25-09-237-69 (ТУ - технические условия in Russian) were elaborated and coordinated with the commander of the military diver unit. After that about 6 thousand watches have been issued (the watch ordinal number is stated on the back of the watch).


----------



## Silversen

deep blue said:


> Would appreciate the courtesy of a response on this quick question, as it seems the authority on these watches is here on WUS:
> 
> I have seen these WITHOUT the factory stamp, just the number.
> 
> Also on a greenish grey strap, and what appears to be some dots or flaws on dial between the 3 and 4 oclock.
> 
> Are those genuine?
> 
> They are supposed to date to 1959 or 1960.
> 
> I would appreciate your thought on these examples.
> 
> DB


Deep Blue, today I've received the reply from Mr Fedotov. He said they hadn't put the stamp on the back before. The stamp must be on the movement bridge. So, the watch you asked about can be a Zlatoust Diver.

I hope this helps.


----------



## deep blue

Thank you very much Silversen... makes me a little more sure :think:

I will revert if successful.

Many thanks yet once again!

DB


----------



## Nalu

deep blue said:


> Would appreciate the courtesy of a response on this quick question, as it seems the authority on these watches is here on WUS:
> 
> I have seen these WITHOUT the factory stamp, just the number.
> 
> Also on a greenish grey strap, and what appears to be some dots or flaws on dial between the 3 and 4 oclock.
> 
> Are those genuine?
> 
> They are supposed to date to 1959 or 1960.
> 
> I would appreciate your thought on these examples.
> 
> DB


Aren't the thumbnail photos shown above of the re-edition? If so, the logo on the back would be correct. I've never seen a vintage Zlatoust with the logo on the back.

There is a very good thread on Zlatoust dive watches on ATG Vintage Watch Forum. I will add my photos here at WUS soon b-)


----------



## coolhandpuke

Hi all

So, I am new to real russian, or fake for that matter, Divers.
I know all the invicta ones.. I actually like them, well some of them.
I belong to the "bankrolled" watch site and others as well..
I enjoyed reading the article... or the translation of it rather

Heres a question then.. are the ones now, that are like the gold one in the Pic, good for lume? Brass? 
The reason I would like to know is Ive been looking at these for some time and would like one.. Its close to a watch design I drew out when I was a kid, based around what i thought Capt nemo would have worn.. especially the protectve grid over it...
If the lume is bad, I supposed I could just apply some superluminova, or V10.. but I would prefer it be brass or maybe decent rose gold or gold color ..are they plated? Painted?
And really, how is the movement?
does it crap out?
I mean.. I have 4 tijiuan (spelling) /seagull movements in pocketwatches that work great considering the cost.
The price of these watches is holding me back.. I mean, if they are not real, not brass and have crap movements, then an Invicta RD, as much as its not russian, will work almost as well(sadly no grid).. since it is stainless and has a swiss quartz which really dont break other then the lemons you get.. for 75 bucks on Amazon..
the "real" fake russians are 250 and more on ebay
thoughts?

Joe


----------



## Chascomm

coolhandpuke said:


> Hi all
> 
> So, I am new to real russian, or fake for that matter, Divers.
> I know all the invicta ones.. I actually like them, well some of them.
> I belong to the "bankrolled" watch site and others as well..
> I enjoyed reading the article... or the translation of it rather
> 
> Heres a question then.. are the ones now, that are like the gold one in the Pic, good for lume? Brass?
> The reason I would like to know is Ive been looking at these for some time and would like one.. Its close to a watch design I drew out when I was a kid, based around what i thought Capt nemo would have worn.. especially the protectve grid over it...
> If the lume is bad, I supposed I could just apply some superluminova, or V10.. but I would prefer it be brass or maybe decent rose gold or gold color ..are they plated? Painted?
> And really, how is the movement?
> does it crap out?
> I mean.. I have 4 tijiuan (spelling) /seagull movements in pocketwatches that work great considering the cost.
> The price of these watches is holding me back.. I mean, if they are not real, not brass and have crap movements, then an Invicta RD, as much as its not russian, will work almost as well(sadly no grid).. since it is stainless and has a swiss quartz which really dont break other then the lemons you get.. for 75 bucks on Amazon..
> the "real" fake russians are 250 and more on ebay
> thoughts?
> 
> Joe


The big gold Blingdiver fom St Petersburg features a case of identical dimensions to the original 191ChS, but made from brass rather than steel. The gold-tone plating is probably titanium nitride, but I can't confirm that. If it is, then it should wear better than chrome. Not sure about the lume, however the top-loading case can be accessed via the screw-down bezel so you could apply your own. The movement will probably be a Molnija 3600/3602/3603 hand-winder, or a Chinese automatic if it has centre seconds or any other extra features.

Given that it is an essentially cosmetic replica, $250 is overpriced for what it is but they never come cheaper. This is why there is such interest on this forum regarding Agat Zlatoust's release of the 192ChS and future plans to expand their watch range.


----------



## Niccolo

https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/invicta-copies-citizen-nighthawk-457322.html


----------



## Silversen

I wonder if Invicta`s designers have their professional conscience and self-respect.

I`m afraid nothing can save Invicta`s face. Its reputation is not worth a brass farthing.


----------



## Senignol

So, can I verify that the Russian Divers watches sold by Smirs, and others, are not authentic?

If not, where does one buy an authentic watch?


----------



## Chascomm

Senignol said:


> So, can I verify that the Russian Divers watches sold by Smirs, and others, are not authentic?
> 
> If not, where does one buy an authentic watch?


I think you might want the _other_ Zlatoust thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zlatoust-diver-watches-official-site-agat-watch-factory-430541.html


----------



## Seele

Silversen said:


> I wonder if Invicta`s designers have their professional conscience and self-respect.
> 
> I`m afraid nothing can save Invicta`s face. Its reputation is not worth a brass farthing.


Silversen,

Perhaps they fired all their designers and bought a photocopier instead? :-d

Just kidding of course. Seriously, not all people engaged in the design trade (here I use the term quite loosely) have the professional and scruples.

There again, with enough publicity and support from fans, I do not think Invicta's reputation would suffer the slightest in the minds of the general public; what we know - as a more informed small circle - would not make much difference. After all, when looking at a watch, the man in the street would look at appearance, price, and the sales pitch, and not an awful lot more.


----------



## Silversen

Seele said:


> Silversen,
> 
> Perhaps they fired all their designers and bought a photocopier instead? :-d
> 
> Just kidding of course. Seriously, not all people engaged in the design trade (here I use the term quite loosely) have the professional and scruples.
> 
> There again, with enough publicity and support from fans, I do not think Invicta's reputation would suffer the slightest in the minds of the general public; what we know - as a more informed small circle - would not make much difference. After all, when looking at a watch, the man in the street would look at appearance, price, and the sales pitch, and not an awful lot more.


Unfortunately, you`re right. People who are not into watches deeply often don`t know about bad reputation of Invicta and moreover even knowing that anyway can purchase their watches.

When writing my post first of all I meant the position of Invicta in the watchmaking business society. This company may well be soon watchmaking company non-Grata, unofficially of course. I think it`s hardly possible that they will be refused to participation in Basel or anywhere else but negative atmosphere around the company will sooner or later tell on them and their business.


----------



## storyteller

p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } Some data from the web related to Zlatoust diver:


a longish text on the history of Soviet military divers (Marinephysiologie an der Militaermedizinischen Akademie in Leningrad). It mentions that a set of specialized equipment - including special diver watch - was introduced in 1955. Since the name of the set is VSON-55, from year 1955, we can safely presume that the diver watch was already produced in 1955 or earlier.
Exact quotation in Russian: "Комплект снаряжения ВСОН-55 предусматривал целый набор элементов, необходимых для деятельности водолаза. В его состав &#8230; входили наручные глубиномер, компас и часы, водолазный перископ, нож, планшет, упаковочные мешки и другие устройства и приспособления."

Memories of a Soviet diver, who worked in the 1950s (http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/persons/avinkin.shtml). 
Amidst other things, he discusses the VSON-55 and the procedures of preparing new equipment, which involved intensive consultations with the divers. Maybe related to the watch is his story about old discussions - constructors putting domed glasses on the tools, while the divers insisting that flat glasses provide better visibility during underwater works and summarizes: "Lots of things we invented and improved on our (divers) own" he says. 
Exact quotation in Russian: "На этих приборах в герметичном корпусе стояли выпуклые стекла, которые под водой уменьшали видимое изображение шкалы. Изобретатель не мог понять, когда ему доказывали, что лучше плоские и вогнутые. Многое изобретали и усовершенствовали сами."


----------



## michele

storyteller said:


> p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } Some data from the web related to Zlatoust diver:
> 
> 
> a longish text on the history of Soviet military divers (Marinephysiologie an der Militaermedizinischen Akademie in Leningrad). It mentions that a set of specialized equipment - including special diver watch - was introduced in 1955. Since the name of the set is VSON-55, from year 1955, we can safely presume that the diver watch was already produced in 1955 or earlier.
> Exact quotation in Russian: "Комплект снаряжения ВСОН-55 предусматривал целый набор элементов, необходимых для деятельности водолаза. В его состав &#8230; входили наручные глубиномер, компас и часы, водолазный перископ, нож, планшет, упаковочные мешки и другие устройства и приспособления."
> Memories of a Soviet diver, who worked in the 1950s (http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/persons/avinkin.shtml).
> Amidst other things, he discusses the VSON-55 and the procedures of preparing new equipment, which involved intensive consultations with the divers. Maybe related to the watch is his story about old discussions - constructors putting domed glasses on the tools, while the divers insisting that flat glasses provide better visibility during underwater works and summarizes: "Lots of things we invented and improved on our (divers) own" he says.
> Exact quotation in Russian: "На этих приборах в герметичном корпусе стояли выпуклые стекла, которые под водой уменьшали видимое изображение шкалы. Изобретатель не мог понять, когда ему доказывали, что лучше плоские и вогнутые. Многое изобретали и усовершенствовали сами."


Very interesting links! |>


----------



## Silversen

storyteller said:


> p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } Some data from the web related to Zlatoust diver:
> 
> 
> a longish text on the history of Soviet military divers (Marinephysiologie an der Militaermedizinischen Akademie in Leningrad). It mentions that a set of specialized equipment - including special diver watch - was introduced in 1955. Since the name of the set is VSON-55, from year 1955, we can safely presume that the diver watch was already produced in 1955 or earlier.
> Exact quotation in Russian: "Комплект снаряжения ВСОН-55 предусматривал целый набор элементов, необходимых для деятельности водолаза. В его состав &#8230; входили наручные глубиномер, компас и часы, водолазный перископ, нож, планшет, упаковочные мешки и другие устройства и приспособления."
> 
> Memories of a Soviet diver, who worked in the 1950s (http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/persons/avinkin.shtml).
> Amidst other things, he discusses the VSON-55 and the procedures of preparing new equipment, which involved intensive consultations with the divers. Maybe related to the watch is his story about old discussions - constructors putting domed glasses on the tools, while the divers insisting that flat glasses provide better visibility during underwater works and summarizes: "Lots of things we invented and improved on our (divers) own" he says.
> Exact quotation in Russian: "На этих приборах в герметичном корпусе стояли выпуклые стекла, которые под водой уменьшали видимое изображение шкалы. Изобретатель не мог понять, когда ему доказывали, что лучше плоские и вогнутые. Многое изобретали и усовершенствовали сами."


Thanks!
Исключительно интересно. :-! :thanks


----------



## Senignol

So what of these models being sold by Smirs...??

Are they authentic?

I notice they have increased in price dramatically in the last month or so.


----------



## Silversen

Senignol, the "so-called Zlatoust diver watches" which are on sale at Smirs are those fakes known as tourist vesions made by somebody in St.Petersburg. 
It`s shame that they are selling them. It`s business. So it`s up to you to decide whether to buy or not.
Hope you aren`t going to buy any.


----------



## Senignol

Silversen said:


> Senignol, the "so-called Zlatoust diver watches" which are on sale at Smirs are those fakes known as tourist vesions made by somebody in St.Petersburg.
> It`s shame that they are selling them. It`s business. So it`s up to you to decide whether to buy or not.
> Hope you aren`t going to buy any.


No...especially as the price has soared so dramatically. I think they were about $185 USD a month or so ago, now they are $350.

That tells me something is fishy...pardon the pun.

Since enrolling here, I've learned to become very suspicious...b-)


----------



## Senignol

So, is this one authentic??

The back has an image of a diver on it...


----------



## Melnyk

no not hardly the originals have plain dials


----------



## Senignol

Yet the seller, with a 100% eBay rating, claims it was built in the 60's and is an original. How do they get away with it.


----------



## Silversen

Senignol said:


> Yet the seller, with a 100% eBay rating, claims it was built in the 60's and is an original. How do they get away with it.


These sellers! o|
He can not only tell you that it was made in the 60s but that he himself was there and saw it with his own eyes. :rodekaart

They just see that there is great unsatisfied demand and feel money they can get selling fakes. <|


----------



## Senignol

Then the manufacturer must make more!!!!


----------



## michele

Senignol said:


> Then the manufacturer must make more!!!!


One week ago i have seen the version with power reserve indicator. I wonder if they are making also the version with oxygen reserve indicator. :roll:


----------



## Vaurien

I've seen one of those "tourist" versions, with its passport (papers) dated in the 60-ies, in the main shop window of a big jeweller shop in one of the richest italians cities: Reggio Emilia. He was absolutely convinced that it was real! o|


----------



## michele

Vaurien said:


> with its passport (papers) dated in the 60-ies


So now the fake certificates are even dated back to the Sixties, instead of the canonic 1976-77 seen till now. Good grief.


----------



## Silversen

This is also a very instructive lesson showing how the one who had all the rights and should have taken the opportunity of making the production in great demand but lost it and, on the contrary, those who didn’t have any rights have been using this opportunity all the way.

The decision to revive Zlatoust divers comes from new Director General Viktor Fironov, who was chosen Director General only in 2009. The old management team was absolutely unable to see this great opportunity. It’s all very sad.


----------



## Metropilot

Melnyk said:


> no not hardly the originals have plain dials


That is one...


----------



## Melou

Aww reading this thread made me cry! I was really hoping I'd land a good deal on this watch. But I got it: it's an Invicta produced fake/remake of the original thing :

RUSSISCHE TAUCHER UHR U-BOOT RUSSIAN DIVER WATCH 1976 - eBay (item 190469639804 end time Dec-17-10 07:04:45 PST)

But then I also noticed this Invicta (pretty good value nevertheless at 100$):

RUSSIAN DIVER No. 5928 Mechanical Movt. - eBay (item 150527415226 end time Dec-07-10 17:44:58 PST)

Where have you guys found the 'real deal'?


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## Silversen

New Zlatoust divers or old ones?
A new one can be bought directly from the factory on their site.
We have discussed it and here is the link:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/zlatoust-diver-watches-official-site-agat-watch-factory-430541.html

As for old versions, everybody gets them their own ways.


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## Senignol

*Re: Шаблоны Ucoz корол*

Translation, please?


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## Silversen

*Re: Шаблоны Ucoz корол*

Don`t pay attention to it!
Just an add, no relation to Zlat watches.


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## Metropilot

BTW. I have a 2010 diver here. When I have some time I write a little review and post more images. Nice solid piece...


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## Senignol

Brutally beautiful, Russian right through. I want one.


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## michele

*Re: Шаблоны Ucoz корол*

spammer.


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## bajaus

Hello: Just doing some research and found your site. I have a divers watch that a Russian exchange student gave me. It is very old and has a green band. It worked for years and recently would unwind at the stem when wound. Left it at a shop to fix and they screwed it up and it is worse now. Do you know of a place here in the US where I could have it fixed?
Thanks in advance , Mark Scott [email protected]
attached is a pic of one that looks like mine
It has no markings on the face and all the rubber seals are rotten
Also the numbers glow alot!


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## friendharry

A new one, 195 lefty, 46 mm
i put this one on a canvas Panerai with a Zenith buckle (nice Star to remeber the Soviet time)!


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## Hartig

Holy necro! ;-)

But those are seriously nice watches though, although to big for me.

I have read the lug-to-lug distance of the 46mm version is 60mm, is that correct?
Also, what is the WR of the new editions? I have read anything between 50/300/700 meters, even asked the manufacturer but they would not reply.


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## z-sky.ru

*My Zlatoust watch - 195ЧСБ*








It's so brutal watch. Russian #ВОДОЛАЗ#


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## bornintheussr

Love my 195 in bronze


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