# Why would one choose a Grand Seiko over a Rolex Datejust?



## VintageTimepiece

Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


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## Jostack

Not everyone is hypnotized by Rolex marketing.


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## sf16

Grand Seiko dials, z. finish, spring drive sweep IMO are better than Rolex.


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## Jay_R

I don't think this question is even about watches...

1. Because they can
2. Everyone has different tastes, preferences and priorities
3. Different strokes for different folks


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## indygreg

The Grand Seiko has more hand finishing are on average more accurate and alot less mass produced. I'ts a more exclusive and better built watch typically. Style wise I think Rolex has them beat in most areas. Depends on what you value.


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## BrianBinFL

VintageTimepiece said:


> Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


Some folks don't want to wear the same watch that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other people are wearing. Of course there's nothing wrong with a Datejust or any other Rolex, but it's just kind of de rigeur and not everyone gives a damn about the expectations of others.

Relative to the price and the silly games one must play to get one, compared to virtually any Grand Seiko Spring Drive there just isn't anything truly special about much of anything Rolex makes. Other than marketing Rolex doesn't do anything that isn't done as well or better by plenty of other luxury brands. On the other hand _nobody_ has anything like Spring Drive and if you want to beat Grand Seiko's dial, hands, indices, and case work, you're going to have to spend a hell of a lot more thatn what a GS costs just to get on par.

It's probably a tired old adage at this point but "you wear a Rolex to impress others, you wear a Grand Seiko to impress yourself".

Now with all of that said, Grand Seiko's "grammar of design" isn't for everyone. If Rolex's designs really float your boat then Grand Seiko may not be for you. And we're all really cool with that because they only make around 55,000 of them a year for the whole world and we'd rather not have to play waiting list games with our AD's.


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## slow_mo

I love my Grand Seikos and I love my Rolexes. 

Buy what you like and not what others perceived.

I find GS’s have better finish, GSs have more varied dials, GS’s hands are sleek, Spring Drive’s accuracy beats a lot of other brands hands down. Prior to the rebranding of Grand Seiko, GS is one of the best value for money watch!

Rolex has better brand recognition, supposedly better brand prestige, better value retention (may even make some $$$), Rolex has better bracelet than GS!


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## 5661nicholas

If you have to ask, you don't get it, and having others try to explain it to you won't help. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## lvt




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## peterbright

You can actually buy many different models without being on a waiting list.

Less expensive (for the most part).

Style in spades.

Personal taste.

Spring drive accuracy.

The list goes on and on.


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## Tonhao

Both are good watches for different reasons.

Datejust (36) is smaller and thinner, scratch resistant, water resistant, and lumed. Also says Rolex on the dial. 

You didn’t pick a Grand Seiko equivalent, but let’s just assume it’s a Snowflake. It’s going to be bigger and dressier, the quartz aspect might put some people off, but the dial will be a piece of art. A lighted 10X loupe should do it.


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## Mr.Jones82

Tonhao said:


> Both are good watches for different reasons.
> 
> Datejust (36) is smaller and thinner, scratch resistant, water resistant, and lumed. Also says Rolex on the dial.
> 
> You didn't pick a Grand Seiko equivalent, but let's just assume it's a Snowflake. It's going to be bigger and dressier, the quartz aspect might put some people off, but the dial will be a piece of art. A lighted 10X loupe should do it.


I love GS, but I understand why the thickness is such a put off for so many. It is a bit incongruous considering the refinement of the rest of the package, which is why I prefer their 9f models. Considering that you can purchase one for significantly less than 2k, they're a DJ killer in my book.


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## Tzolkin

Loupe both brands' watches and the appeal of GS becomes apparent. That is not to say GS is what you SHOULD prefer, but if you do this you may understand some of the reasons why many of us are really into GS.


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## T1meout

You don’t have to. Just get both.


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## Aidy

Why would someone pick roast potatoes instead of mashed potatoes


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## Heljestrand

Either or. Add Omega Aqua Terra to the list or IWC Petite Prince. One should select a really great wristwatch and wear it to satisfy whatever inner spark of tradition, charm, and satisfaction that it brings. Creating personal memories with and bonding with a Grand Seiko, Rolex, Omega, IWC, Breitling, the list goes on and on; the main emphasis could be to establish that faithful daily companion piece that you cherish.

I spoke with a gentleman the other day who was wearing an exquisite Rolex Datejust on Jubilee. Could I see myself enjoying that wristwatch??? YES! The fact that I chose a Grand Seiko as a potential daily wear and am bonding with it doesn't diminish my appreciation for the Rolex. I've just to coin another member's famous post from years ago decided to jump off the Hamster Wheel of endless buying and flipping and settle happily on a particular GS.


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## DJ_Masse

slow_mo said:


> I love my Grand Seikos and I love my Rolexes.
> 
> Buy what you like and not what others perceived.
> 
> I find GS's have better finish, GSs have more varied dials, GS's hands are sleek, Spring Drive's accuracy beats a lot of other brands hands down. Prior to the rebranding of Grand Seiko, GS is one of the best value for money watch!
> 
> Rolex has better brand recognition, supposedly better brand prestige, better value retention (may even make some $$$), Rolex has better bracelet than GS!


+1 this on all of this except for the bracelet part; oyster yes. President yes. Jubilee, not so much. Just my opinion, would prefer if my Pepsi came on oyster than jubilee but I can live with it. But this post sums it all up for me.

But if you don't get it, don't get it. Watches are personal and one should not buy something if someone else has to tell me it's nice. If that were the case, I wouldn't have sold off most of my Rolex's and replaced them with a bunch of GS' because all my watch buddies are exclusively Rolex fans. They initially thought I was nuts, but because I keep posting pics on my IG of my Grand seikos, they're slowly coming around. Each one has since said they now want to add one to the collection. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## simonp67

5661nicholas said:


> If you have to ask, you don't get it, and having others try to explain it to you won't help.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


I'd agree with that.

I'm a Seiko fan, Marine Master, vintage Willard, Tuna, etc but I never saw the GS appeal. When an AD started carrying the GS line I went in person to see what I was missing....... I never did figure out what I was missing. I've no doubts as to the quality but visually they did nothing for me. I've had date Justa in the past & a sea dweller for 20 years now, I wear them for me, what I like - can't see a GS in my future

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jostack

I don’t see anything elegant about a datejust. Big block lume filled markers and wide blocky hands. 

The fluted bezel and jubilee are lipstick. 

I have one and love it for it’s simplicity and robust accurate movement.


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## sticky

Leaving aside all the weight that the Rolex name carries you’re left with personal taste and the GS (any GS) is so good looking that it can more than hold its own against the DJ in the looks department.


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## Mr.Jones82

Heljestrand said:


> Either or. Add Omega Aqua Terra to the list or IWC Petite Prince. One should select a really great wristwatch and wear it to satisfy whatever inner spark of tradition, charm, and satisfaction that it brings. Creating personal memories with and bonding with a Grand Seiko, Rolex, Omega, IWC, Breitling, the list goes on and on; the main emphasis could be to establish that faithful daily companion piece that you cherish.
> 
> I spoke with a gentleman the other day who was wearing an exquisite Rolex Datejust on Jubilee. Could I see myself enjoying that wristwatch??? YES! The fact that I chose a Grand Seiko as a potential daily wear and am bonding with it doesn't diminish my appreciation for the Rolex. I've just to coin another member's famous post from years ago decided to jump off the Hamster Wheel of endless buying and flipping and settle happily on a particular GS.
> View attachment 14734861


Well said and a fantastic pic. That might be the best pic I've seen of that model!


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## Heljestrand

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Well said and a fantastic pic. That might be the best pic I've seen of that model!


Thanks! It is always a treat!


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## Mtech

I got my GS SD in September, never wanted to go Rolex, but I had the money to do either or both. I've handled many Rolex, my brother has a new Submariner, they don't look so good under 10x magnification compared to GS. One last point, with so many fake Rolex out there...who's to say what percentage of the ones you see in public are real? Don't know about the incidence of fake GS so far.


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## Dan GSR

I'm the opposite. Why would anyone buy a DJ after seeing how good GS is


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## Tonhao

Jostack said:


> I don't see anything elegant about a datejust. Big block lume filled markers and wide blocky hands.
> 
> The fluted bezel and jubilee are lipstick.
> 
> I have one and love it for it's simplicity and robust accurate movement.


Both GS and the Datejust have somewhat drifted from their original designs, back when watches were dressier and slimmer. The latest thick lume markers and beefy lugs just don't do it for me.

Same goes for GS. As Mr Jones mentioned, currently only the 9F quartz and manual wind models come close to the original dimensions. The rest look beefed up.









1601 with alpha hands









Current


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## GMT-man

Dan GSR said:


> I'm the opposite. Why would anyone buy a DJ after seeing how good GS is


I was thinking the same. After all Rolex is the least exclusive "luxury" watch brand, they make and sell almost a million watches per year, which is more than anybody. Grand Seiko makes about 35000 if my memory serves. I have never understood why something as common as a Rolex would be some sort of grail watch everybody should crave after. They do have a few nice models, no doubt about it, but if one wants real quality there are better and often even cheaper choices available. Available also meaning like walk-in-a-shop-and-buy-one.


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## Nokie

Quality, uniqueness, something that is "not a Rolex", etc, etc.....


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## TCWU

GS is much safer in metro area if you are taking public transportation 
they won't rob your Seiko/GS but will rob your rolex
to avoid trouble GS is better


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## DVR

Dan GSR said:


> I'm the opposite. Why would anyone buy a DJ after seeing how good GS is


I like Rolex, own 2, one is a DJ, but what he said times 100! 
GS is in a totally different league, you are getting the highest level of finish on case, dial, hands and indices. 
Basically, it is the best finished watch in the world once on the wrist.

Yes, you have to put some effort in adjusting the bracelet to your wrist. Yes, there is no 'micro adjustment'.
But also, yes, you can adjust the bracelet very precisely if you know how. No need for gimmicks like micro this and that.

I just went on a my daily tour with my race bicycle and after 4 km I did not remember if I removed my watch from my wrist.
I was dressed for freezing temperatures, thermo layers, ROS Castelli , Double gloves. So I could not 'feel' with my fingers if I had removed the watch or not.
What am I trying to convey. The watch and bracelet is so extremely comfortable, once properly sized, you do not feel it. 
Once home I discovered I had forgotten to take it of.

A car frase just for laughs : GS, There Is No Substitute !


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## danimal107

New and trying to learn... I've never seen a GS is person. I'll have to find one to look at.


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## berni29

Hi

I have had Rolex before and have friends who wear them, and generally speaking in my opinion the “equivalent “ GS’s are nicer.

Berni


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heb

Because you already have a Datejust and you want something different.


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## DiverBob

Because the Grand Seiko looks better in my opinion seems a tad more interesting at this point than the DJ.


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## tomchicago

Will take a HAQ over any mechanical any day. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Hosum

What's a Rolex Datejust?


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## indygreg

Hosum said:


> What's a Rolex Datejust?


What's taters precious?


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## Zinzan

tomchicago said:


> Will take a HAQ over any mechanical any day.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


ANY mechanical?


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## indygreg

I have owned both of these watches (the upgraded dial version of the GS) I would say Tim is spot on with this difference review. The case isn't even close. Style and ruggedness I will hand to rolex in many instances, but quality of materials and finish? Grand Seiko murders Rolex. 

Type this search string into youtube:

Rolex Milgauss vs Grand Seiko Automatic SBGR101; Rolex Milgauss 116400GV


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## journeyforce

I like both

I have both. My Sub will never be sold as I saved to get that and made a few payments on it before it was 100% mine. I got it as high school graduation gift to myself. I have never regretted the way I went about buying it. I have owned it for almost 25 years (2020 marks 25 years of ownership)

That said, I have always liked Seiko. A Seiko diver was my first "expensive" watch (it is true that in the grand scheme of things, a entry level is not a big cost but to somebody going to high school and working a part time job flipping burgers and asking folks if they want fries with that it is sort of expensive)

I have always liked Seiko watches. The company was founded in the 1800's and has been in Japan since day one (where as Rolex was founded in 1905 in the UK and then left in 1919/1920 to Geneva to escape the UK tax man). Seiko also makes everything in their watches. They control everything because they are in house.

It was not a problem for me to go and buy a luxury Seiko because I have never considered Seiko to be a lesser brand then Omega, Rolex and other luxo watches. 

I also did not want to wait 10 years for a Rolex due to them "holding back" watches to increase interest in them (to be fair, if Rolex founder Wilsdorf was still alive and running the ship, anybody that wanted a Rolex and had the money for one would have one and there would be no line or waiting list)

Sadly a lot of GS don't look as good in pics, you have to go and see one in person to discover the attraction of Grand Seiko


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## kamonjj

It’s so funny to post this question in the GS fanboy section. Post the same question in the Rolex section to compare results. More of an unbiased sample for ya. 

I have owned many GS, and Seiko pieces. My watch passions started Seiko as a child, as it has many others. It’s a brand I shared a passion with my father who I owe all my watch obsession to.

However, I respect both brands equally. I appreciate the hand craftsmanship of GS. I appreciate the quality of Rolex on many levels.

GS will have better finishing than almost any watch. At its price point, it’s hard to believe the level of craftsmanship. That’s where it stops for me, as other things matter.

A modern DJ bracelet will be higher quality than the GS bracelet, especially the clasp. Why can’t we have micro adjustments for goodness sakes? I know, we have half links. Half links are ridiculous given it’s almost 2020 and they can’t design a clasp to save their life. Win Rolex - easylink and micro vs half links.

Unless you get a spring drive, the Rolex movement will be more accurate (if that means anything). If my watches run on the + side I don’t generally care too much. But that doesn’t excuse the fact that every mechanical GS I’ve owned has ran less accurately than any Rolex I’ve had. GS doesn’t regulate their watches to as high of a standard. Some collectors care, some don’t but it’s something to think about. Yes, I use a timegrapher on all my watches. It’s not just second per day. It’s also positional deviation, and how it performs over the entire powerband.

The Rolex is generally regarded by most collectors as being more versatile for some reason (beach to boardroom is often used). I do appreciate the dimensions of the Rolex more, especially the 36. GS dress pieces in the spring drive offerings are too large for my 6.3-6.5in wrist. This is where the clasp design really irks me. If I had a better clasp a larger piece may be more comfortable. Given it’s an “okay fit” makes the larger dimensions intolerable.

The lume on the Rolex is better (some vs none). I prefer lume. Enough said.

The value retention is not even fair, Rolex does it better than anyone, period. 

The Rolex service network is unbeatable. Amazing independents and RSC is fantastic. How many GS horror stories have we heard about NJ? If this is your forever watch, you may want to think about servicing in the future. I like going to my local AD and having them send in the watch to Rolex. I don’t even have a local GS AD to handle this for me. Some people are okay with that, but it’s just a convenience. 

I would easily pick a DJ over a GS dress watch any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


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## TCWU

2008 Seiko/GS was more expensive than regular Steel Rolex DJ....
now it's other way around
but Rolex retains better resell value 
both are excellent watch


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## BrianBinFL

indygreg said:


> Type this search string into youtube:
> 
> Rolex Milgauss vs Grand Seiko Automatic SBGR101; Rolex Milgauss 116400GV


Embed of the above referenced video:


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## palletwheel

kamonjj said:


> Unless you get a spring drive, the Rolex movement will be more accurate (if that means anything). If my watches run on the + side I don't generally care too much. But that doesn't excuse the fact that every mechanical GS I've owned has ran less accurately than any Rolex I've had. GS doesn't regulate their watches to as high of a standard. Some collectors care, some don't but it's something to think about. Yes, I use a timegrapher on all my watches. It's not just second per day. It's also positional deviation, and how it performs over the entire powerband.


+1 on this. Fit and finishing yes, but the GS unfortunately is not the latest in mechanical movement design and materials.


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## indygreg

BrianBinFL said:


> Embed of the above referenced video:


Thanks, I removed the link because I couldnt rememeber the forum rules about non sponsored videos etc.


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## TCWU

Spring Drive + Titanium (case & bracelet) + sapphire bezel together is way better than any Rolex and it's cheaper


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## gumpy-au

I have both brands, both are different and have their pros and cons. To answer your specific question, re the DJ, i went the DJ36 over the SBGA285 because the fit and dial is way better on the DJ36, for some reason the SBGA285 dial is pretty bad. The other SD models are too large for me. However, if my wrist could take a DJ41, i'd almost certainly take the snowflake over it.


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## BrianBinFL

kamonjj said:


> It's so funny to post this question in the GS fanboy section. Post the same question in the Rolex section to compare results. More of an unbiased sample for ya.


Maybe I'd be surprised, but I don't expect many in the Rolex section would choose a GS over the DJ. And there's nothing wrong with that.



kamonjj said:


> A modern DJ bracelet will be higher quality than the GS bracelet, especially the clasp. Why can't we have micro adjustments for goodness sakes? I know, we have half links. Half links are ridiculous given it's almost 2020 and they can't design a clasp to save their life. Win Rolex - easylink and micro vs half links.


Since so many people complain about the GS clasp I'm surprised that GS doesn't at least offer a hulking beast of a Rolex-style clasp for those who want that on a dress watch. Personally I love the GS clasp and had no trouble whatsoever coming up with a combination of full and partial links that gives a perfect fit. Sure, being able to adjust it in or out a tiny bit now and again without tools would be nice, but I wouldn't be willing to accept a huge clasp in order to get it. Now on a Grand Seiko diver. Sure. Grand Seiko should get right on that. But on their non-divers, hell no.



kamonjj said:


> Unless you get a spring drive, the Rolex movement will be more accurate (if that means anything). If my watches run on the + side I don't generally care too much. But that doesn't excuse the fact that every mechanical GS I've owned has ran less accurately than any Rolex I've had. GS doesn't regulate their watches to as high of a standard. Some collectors care, some don't but it's something to think about. Yes, I use a timegrapher on all my watches. It's not just second per day. It's also positional deviation, and how it performs over the entire powerband.


This is definitely the area where Rolex presently excels over Grand Seiko (and most other watch makers for that matter). I don't know how much of it is regulation and how much of it is simply Rolex having higher quality hairsprings. I would hope that once the Swiss patent on silicon hairsprings expires in 2021 that Grand Seiko will start using them in their 9S movements and experience a step up in accuracy.

That said, I'm a Spring Drive guy, so none of that really affects me. Nobody else has anything like Spring Drive. The patents have expired but I doubt anybody else can make it work. Or maybe nobody else cares to try.



kamonjj said:


> The lume on the Rolex is better (some vs none). I prefer lume. Enough said.


For those that prefer lume Grand Seiko is not your brand - unless you want a dive watch. I think perhaps the death penalty would be in order for putting lume on a non-diver Grand Seiko. Maybe too extreme. I'm not certain though.



kamonjj said:


> The value retention is not even fair, Rolex does it better than anyone, period.


This is the one thing that Rolex absolutely does better than anybody. Marketing. If you care about value retention (something that is irrelevant to me) then there really is no better choice than Rolex. If you care about cachet among the broadest segment of the public there really is no better choice than Rolex.



kamonjj said:


> The Rolex service network is unbeatable. Amazing independents and RSC is fantastic. How many GS horror stories have we heard about NJ? If this is your forever watch, you may want to think about servicing in the future. I like going to my local AD and having them send in the watch to Rolex. I don't even have a local GS AD to handle this for me. Some people are okay with that, but it's just a convenience.


I posted here once that GS should step up their game in the service department if they want to play with the likes of Rolex or Omega. But then at some point I realized that wasn't really a fair expectation. Rolex and Omega make around 1 million and 700,000 watches each (respectively) per year. Being that those watches are mass produced and have little hand finishing, I would expect that there is A LOT of profit margin in that final, elevated (relative to GS) retail price. Compare that with GS who makes only around 55,000 watches a year (for the whole world) with extensive hand finishing of every watch. I think the GS profit margin is MUCH lower and multiplied by vastly fewer pieces. GS simply doesn't have the annual profit to have dedicated GS service centers all over the world.

Now that said, when a GS shows up in New Jersey you'd like to think they should give it special treatment, and I do believe there is room for improvement in that area. But it's also easy to forget that the Grand Seiko has only been distributed outside Japan since 2010, and only been its own brand since 2017. Rolex, Omega and the others have been in the international market forever by comparison, That, coupled with higher margins and much higher number of units sold makes a big difference.



kamonjj said:


> I would easily pick a DJ over a GS dress watch any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Luckily for us all there are enough quality watch makers out there that we can all find something that makes us happy. Honestly I rather like the white gold and stainless Datejust II 41mm. But it's no Grand Seiko and there are plenty of Grand Seiko watches that I like better, and would choose over it even if the prices were equal. Since in fact the Grand Seikos cost less this puts the DJ in a bad position in the lineup to receive an allocation of my watch dollars.

Geez this got too long. Sorry about that.


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## koolpep

In the wild peaceful coexisting between these different species has been observed on occasion....










In addition a GS dial can look like this....










Or this....depending on the light...










What's not to like?

Anyhow, the Datejust is a rock solid choice and you can't go wrong with one. However, you are one of hundreds of thousands if not millions who have one, if not the same model.

GS produces something like 30k watches a year (please correct me if I am wrong) and Rolex approx 800k-1 Million a year. If you want something more unique and special....GS is the way.


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## slow_mo

BrianBinFL said:


> For those that prefer lume Grand Seiko is not your brand - unless you want a dive watch. I think perhaps the death penalty would be in order for putting lume on a non-diver Grand Seiko. Maybe too extreme. I'm not certain though.


There's lume on some non GS divers like the SBGE033 (SD GMT) and the SBGN001 (9F GMT), just to name a couple... and the list goes on.

Here's the SBGE033:


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## kamonjj

BrianBinFL said:


> Since so many people complain about the GS clasp I'm surprised that GS doesn't at least offer a hulking beast of a Rolex-style clasp for those who want that on a dress watch. Personally I love the GS clasp and had no trouble whatsoever coming up with a combination of full and partial links that gives a perfect fit. Sure, being able to adjust it in or out a tiny bit now and again without tools would be nice, but I wouldn't be willing to accept a huge clasp in order to get it. Now on a Grand Seiko diver. Sure. Grand Seiko should get right on that. But on their non-divers, hell no.


All clasps on all Rolex lines are better than the GS dress watches. The OP has micro adjustments. The dj and the rest of the watches don't have large glidelock clasps but still have 3 micro adjustment areas and the easylink extension. The non glidelock clasps are still extremely small and provide not only many more adjustments than the GS offering but are just better designed. I'd even take the 5 digit stamped Rolex clasp over a modern GS clasp. At least it has micro adjustments to get a better fit.

I am a fit sensitive collector so it means more to me than most. It wouldn't be much for GS to update their clasp to make them function without adding a lot of bulk (new astron proved that this year). They have some watches with some better designed clasps yet they aren't implemented along the entire line.


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## Len1738

Mtech said:


> I got my GS SD in September, never wanted to go Rolex, but I had the money to do either or both. I've handled many Rolex, my brother has a new Submariner, they don't look so good under 10x magnification compared to GS. One last point, with so many fake Rolex out there...who's to say what percentage of the ones you see in public are real? Don't know about the incidence of fake GS so far.


I'd like to see someone try to fake a spring drive.....I DON"T THINK SO!


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## BrianBinFL

slow_mo said:


> There's lume on some non GS divers like the SBGE033 (SD GMT) and the SBGN001 (9F GMT), just to name a couple... and the list goes on.
> 
> Here's the SBGE033:
> 
> (pic removed)


Aaaaaagh, it burns. Just kidding. 

That looks fine on a more sport, less dress, Grand Seiko. But putting lume on something like the A373 or A375 would be criminal.


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## BrianBinFL

kamonjj said:


> All clasps on all Rolex lines are better than the GS dress watches. The OP has micro adjustments. The dj and the rest of the watches don't have large glidelock clasps but still have 3 micro adjustment areas and the easylink extension. The non glidelock clasps are still extremely small and provide not only many more adjustments than the GS offering but are just better designed. I'd even take the 5 digit stamped Rolex clasp over a modern GS clasp. At least it has micro adjustments to get a better fit.
> 
> I am a fit sensitive collector so it means more to me than most. It wouldn't be much for GS to update their clasp to make them function without adding a lot of bulk (new astron proved that this year). They have some watches with some better designed clasps yet they aren't implemented along the entire line.


If they could keep the clasp reasonably small, and have an internal micro-adjust, that'd be fine. That seems like it would be pretty easy to do as others have done so. I think it would make a lot of people happy.

They must have some sort of philosophical opposition because it's not like it would be difficult or cost a lot. At a minimum they should offer it as a replacement clasp at an additional charge.


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## journeyforce

BrianBinFL said:


> Since so many people complain about the GS clasp I'm surprised that GS doesn't at least offer a hulking beast of a Rolex-style clasp for those who want that on a dress watch. Personally I love the GS clasp and had no trouble whatsoever coming up with a combination of full and partial links that gives a perfect fit. Sure, being able to adjust it in or out a tiny bit now and again without tools would be nice, but I wouldn't be willing to accept a huge clasp in order to get it. Now on a Grand Seiko diver. Sure. Grand Seiko should get right on that. But on their non-divers, hell no.


I agree with most of what you said. However I do think GS needs to make a change to their clasps. I have a large amount of 1980's Seiko watches(quartz, automatic) and those have clasps with 6 or 7 micro adjustments. The clasp is longer but it is still thin and as the clasp curves, it wears well on the wrist. I wonder why GS cannot do something like that.

Also The WUS Rolex and Tudor forum's most popular topic is Opinions on Omega. Those folks are so insecure that the biggest post is one on Omega. Go figure


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## slow_mo

BrianBinFL said:


> Aaaaaagh, it burns. Just kidding.
> 
> That looks fine on a more sport, less dress, Grand Seiko. But putting lume on something like the A373 or A375 would be criminal.
> 
> View attachment 14736995
> 
> 
> View attachment 14736997


No lume on this fellow as well! Any lume on this with destroy the looks!!

Cheers!!


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## De Wolfe

Cause you liked the GS model over the date just; life is simple don't over complicate it.


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## fenomeno

kamonjj said:


> It's so funny to post this question in the GS fanboy section. Post the same question in the Rolex section to compare results. More of an unbiased sample for ya.
> 
> I have owned many GS, and Seiko pieces. My watch passions started Seiko as a child, as it has many others. It's a brand I shared a passion with my father who I owe all my watch obsession to.
> 
> However, I respect both brands equally. I appreciate the hand craftsmanship of GS. I appreciate the quality of Rolex on many levels.
> 
> GS will have better finishing than almost any watch. At its price point, it's hard to believe the level of craftsmanship. That's where it stops for me, as other things matter.
> 
> A modern DJ bracelet will be higher quality than the GS bracelet, especially the clasp. Why can't we have micro adjustments for goodness sakes? I know, we have half links. Half links are ridiculous given it's almost 2020 and they can't design a clasp to save their life. Win Rolex - easylink and micro vs half links.
> 
> Unless you get a spring drive, the Rolex movement will be more accurate (if that means anything). If my watches run on the + side I don't generally care too much. But that doesn't excuse the fact that every mechanical GS I've owned has ran less accurately than any Rolex I've had. GS doesn't regulate their watches to as high of a standard. Some collectors care, some don't but it's something to think about. Yes, I use a timegrapher on all my watches. It's not just second per day. It's also positional deviation, and how it performs over the entire powerband.
> 
> The Rolex is generally regarded by most collectors as being more versatile for some reason (beach to boardroom is often used). I do appreciate the dimensions of the Rolex more, especially the 36. GS dress pieces in the spring drive offerings are too large for my 6.3-6.5in wrist. This is where the clasp design really irks me. If I had a better clasp a larger piece may be more comfortable. Given it's an "okay fit" makes the larger dimensions intolerable.
> 
> The lume on the Rolex is better (some vs none). I prefer lume. Enough said.
> 
> The value retention is not even fair, Rolex does it better than anyone, period.
> 
> The Rolex service network is unbeatable. Amazing independents and RSC is fantastic. How many GS horror stories have we heard about NJ? If this is your forever watch, you may want to think about servicing in the future. I like going to my local AD and having them send in the watch to Rolex. I don't even have a local GS AD to handle this for me. Some people are okay with that, but it's just a convenience.
> 
> I would easily pick a DJ over a GS dress watch any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


Fair points. I think we also have to compare a specific watch against the DJ, because GS makes so many watches. Regarding the service point, I am pretty sure GS is going to be improving in this aspect. They are growing significantly in recent years while other brands are slowing down.


----------



## DVR

Since accuracy has been brought up:

I prefer Rolex over any GS automatic.
I prefer GS SD over any Rolex. 

No SD? Not interested. 
I guess I have become a SD fan boy :think:

For me Rolex has become very hard to read at a glance.
The older I got, the worse it became. 
Hands close to cyclops and I have a hard time finding them at all without my reading glasses.
The glare of the Crystal doesn't help either.

GS has a neat trick with brushed on dark and polished on light dials. Never have a problem seeing the hands.


----------



## kamonjj

BrianBinFL said:


> If they could keep the clasp reasonably small, and have an internal micro-adjust, that'd be fine. That seems like it would be pretty easy to do as others have done so. I think it would make a lot of people happy.
> 
> They must have some sort of philosophical opposition because it's not like it would be difficult or cost a lot. At a minimum they should offer it as a replacement clasp at an additional charge.


Exactly, the astron clasp has built in micro adjustments. I actually went as far as contacting Seiko earlier in the year to try to buy the clasp. I was gonna try to retro fit it on one of the gs quartz gmts. They will sell the clasp but it was backordered until further notice. I thought other enthusiasts would have been retro fitting it to everything by now. It would allow me to reconsider some GS pieces if they offered this style of clasp as an upgrade.


----------



## Mavrobasilis

perfectly happy with the hi-beat accuracy and robustness I've enjoyed for 3+ years (more so with SD, naturally), with the exquisite details in the design and finish and, especially, with almost none of my acquaintances knowing how much my watches cost (a lot less than when bought, admittedly )) )

so 2/3 a clear win for GSs


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## mrozowjj

VintageTimepiece said:


> Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


Why would someone buy a Rolex when they could buy a Patek Philippe or a Jaeger Lecoultre

It's an absurd question that is either trolling or willfully ignorant.

You might as well go to the pizza sub forum on the food forum and ask why someone would eat pizza when they could be eating a calzone.


----------



## Keaman

mrozowjj said:


> Why would someone buy a Rolex when they could buy a Patek Philippe or a Jaeger Lecoultre
> 
> It's an absurd question that is either trolling or willfully ignorant.
> 
> You might as well go to the pizza sub forum on the food forum and ask why someone would eat pizza when they could be eating a calzone.


I know what you mean, but it does take me back to my early days in this hobby when I used to think, why would someone buy a Datejust over an Aqua Terra especially considering the price. Then I bought a Datejust and understood. My DJ36 has been my longest held watch, close to 10 years now. But I just bought a GS SBGA375 (40mm 44GS style) and when I was wearing it the first day I yelled out "why would anyone buy a DJ41 over this!". Yeah it's all a bit silly really :-d


----------



## Hosum

mrozowjj said:


> Why would someone buy a Rolex when they could buy a Patek Philippe or a Jaeger Lecoultre
> 
> It's an absurd question that is either trolling or willfully ignorant.
> 
> You might as well go to the pizza sub forum on the food forum and ask why someone would eat pizza when they could be eating a calzone.


+1 that this smells like troll and not like pizza...


----------



## Rakumi

I actually clicked on this thread a bit excited because the DJ is my grail and I love the way most GS look. Thought it would be photos of the OP debating between 2 watches and needed hell figuring which one. Lol, I should have known it was a click bait thread.


----------



## rdoder

For me, major advantages of GS over Datejust:

-Super-clear crystal, really clear look at the dial's contents.
-Display caseback, for a look at the nice movement.
-Under-the-radar-ness.


----------



## John Price

Lot's of valid points brought up here so I hope you're learning. 

First thing I can say is to go to a GS dealer and ask to look at several models. Not all GSes are alike. 

Second, while the opinions here on the GS forum may/are biased toward GS I think you find the same if you posted this on the Rolex forum. It's just how people are. But I think you've seen some pretty reasoned opinions here too. For me, I own 1 DJ (my Dad's) and 2 GSes. The Rolex is lovely (I've owned others in the past too) but I prefer my GSes. I have the Snowflake, a model unlike anything Rolex offers with its SpringDrive movement, titanium case and bracelet, and that beautiful drifted snow dial. The other GS I own is the SBGH267 "Whirlpool". The dial is so cool with it's mosaic whirlpool pattern, steely blue colour. The case is polished/brushed to perfection and so much more interesting to look at than a Rolex case. And as others have said, the hands, markers... on a GS are finished better than anything anywhere near this price-point. 

Third, honestly choosing either GS or Rolex - no wrong choice there.


----------



## Sparrowhawk

To the OP, please be interactive with respect to the thread you've started.

In that light, provide your rationale for why you like the Rolex DateJust.


----------



## BigSeikoFan

I have both brands but only the GS makes me say, "Dayum!" when I see it on my wrist.

Besides the zaratsu finishing, the razor sharpness of the hour markers and hands are to die for.

And then there's the sweep of the SD second hand: worth the price of admission by itself.


----------



## 41Mets

5661nicholas said:


> If you have to ask, you don't get it, and having others try to explain it to you won't help.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


If the OP is asking legitimate question, then how else would one know than by asking the question to get feedback information from others? I didn't know a thing about grand Seiko until I found these forums. The question The OP has asked may very well lead him to have a different opinion of Grand Seiko.

With that said, I have owned both. I owned the date just ii with a gorgeous blue dial and I decided to sell it and ended up picking up the grand Seiko SBGA375 with a gorgeous Sunburst blue dial. When I had the grand SEiko, my feeling was not that it was a better watch than a datejust, but that it was as good a watch for significantly less money. As is my tendency, I sold the grand Seiko, ended up getting a Rolex milgauss, sold that, and now I have a vintage Rolex date just.

I think grand Seiko makes fantastic Watches. To me they are not as comfortable and do not feel as well made as the Rolex. I don't really care about Owning a Rolex or not, and if you take a look at my watch collection, or you know my watch history, you would see that I have often chosen Watches off the beat'in path rather than the ones that everyone knows. But I have to say, particularly with modern day Rolexes, they feel amazing on the wrist. The bracelets are pretty close to the best in the business. The dials, particularly anything Sunburst, is absolutely beautiful. There's no doubt that the same amount of finishing DOESNT go into them as do the grand Seikos.

I think I appreciate the grand Seiko more than I actually wanna wear it.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 41Mets

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Well said and a fantastic pic. That might be the best pic I've seen of that model!


All of his pictures are the best of that model!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TJ Boogie

The finish on a GS is immaculate, just superb. GS can be had for half the price of a modern Rolex. On a Rolex, the finish is subpar at best, pricing is outrageous and availability is nil.
The two main reasons people buy Rolex is for brand recognition amongst the proletariat (ego), and increase in worth over time.

Why would anyone choose Rolex over GS?


----------



## KILOFINAL7

because one doesn't follow the herd...


----------



## Keaman

41Mets said:


>


Maybe getting a bit off track here, but I currently own both the z-blue and the SBGA375. To me the only part of the Milgauss that can compete with the GS is the dial, and that's only when strong light hits it! The GS looks incredible in all lights and to me has so much more character than the Milly, which feels bland by comparison.


----------



## 41Mets

Keaman said:


> Maybe getting a bit off track here, but I currently own both the z-blue and the SBGA375. To me the only part of the Milgauss that can compete with the GS is the dial, and that's only when strong light hits it! The GS looks incredible in all lights and to me has so much more character than the Milly, which feels bland by comparison.
> 
> View attachment 14744889
> 
> 
> View attachment 14744903


I'm just a dial guy through and through

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mleok

41Mets said:


> If the OP is asking legitimate question, then how else would one know than by asking the question to get feedback information from others? I didn't know a thing about grand Seiko until I found these forums. The question The OP has asked may very well lead him to have a different opinion of Grand Seiko.
> 
> With that said, I have owned both. I owned the date just ii with a gorgeous blue dial and I decided to sell it and ended up picking up the grand Seiko SBGA375 with a gorgeous Sunburst blue dial. When I had the grand SEiko, my feeling was not that it was a better watch than a datejust, but that it was as good a watch for significantly less money. As is my tendency, I sold the grand Seiko, ended up getting a Rolex milgauss, sold that, and now I have a vintage Rolex date just.
> 
> I think grand Seiko makes fantastic Watches. To me they are not as comfortable and do not feel as well made as the Rolex. I don't really care about Owning a Rolex or not, and if you take a look at my watch collection, or you know my watch history, you would see that I have often chosen Watches off the beat'in path rather than the ones that everyone knows. But I have to say, particularly with modern day Rolexes, they feel amazing on the wrist. The bracelets are pretty close to the best in the business. The dials, particularly anything Sunburst, is absolutely beautiful. There's no doubt that the same amount of finishing DOESNT go into them as do the grand Seikos.
> 
> I think I appreciate the grand Seiko more than I actually wanna wear it.


I've examined numerous Grand Seikos in detail, under a loupe, and there is no question that the finishing on the hands and markers are excellent. I'm a bit more ambivalent about the much lauded Zaratsu polishing of the cases, as some exhibit an orange peel like finish under a loupe, so it's difficult for me to refer to such a finish as distortion free. However, none of these watches have left me feeling this watch looks and feels amazing on my wrist, and I absolutely need to get one.

I think it's because while they might excel in finish, they don't quite fit any of my usage profiles. They tend to be on the dressier side, so I would prefer them to be thinner than their mechanical and Spring Drive versions are, but they have oddly thick lugs, so I don't think they work as well on a strap. I find their bracelets to be somewhat lacking in terms of the precision of fit and the tightness of their manufacturing tolerances, and their clasps are not very adjustable.

The only Grand Seiko I seriously considered is the SBGW253, which is a beautiful dress watch. I did have a chance to purchase one at the Seiko boutique in Madrid, but I passed on it because I found the all polished case with somewhat rounded edges to be a bit underwhelming and lacking in refinement, and I would have preferred contrast finishing of polished and brushed surfaces with sharper interfaces. In fairness, I am aware that this is because the 3180 reference that the SBGW253 is based on features such an all polished case.










I might still get a Grand Seiko, possibly a SBGV225 with a 9F HAQ, as it has a much thinner case. But, considering a high end quartz naturally leads me to also consider the Citizen Chronomaster AQ4020-54Y, with its exquisite Washi paper dial.


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## GFSEA86

Buy a Rolex if you enjoy people asking you incessantly if it’s “a real or a fake.”
Rolex to me is just as annoying a brand as Invicta. 
Kudos to their marketing team though. Top notch propaganda. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mleok

GFSEA86 said:


> Buy a Rolex if you enjoy people asking you incessantly if it's "a real or a fake."
> Rolex to me is just as annoying a brand as Invicta.
> Kudos to their marketing team though. Top notch propaganda.


Never had that problem, not sure what kind of impression you make on people if you worry that they'll ask if you're wearing a fake watch.

Nobody is going to deny there is a premium associated with the Rolex brand, and I have often said that the most compelling evidence of this is the level of quality that Tudor is able to deliver for the price. But, to argue that Rolex's success is purely due to marketing and propagana is absolutely ridiculous.

As for me, I'm annoyed with people who presume to know my motivations for buying a watch, with comments like, "you buy a Rolex to impress others, you buy a Grand Seiko to impress yourself."


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## GFSEA86

mleok said:


> Never had that problem, not sure what kind of impression you make on people if you worry that they'll ask if you're wearing a fake watch.
> 
> Nobody is going to deny there is a premium associated with the Rolex brand, and I have often said that the most compelling evidence of this is the level of quality that Tudor is able to deliver for the price. But, to argue that Rolex's success is purely due to marketing and propagana is absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> As for me, I'm annoyed with people who presume to know my motivations for buying a watch, with comments like, "you buy a Rolex to impress others, you buy a Grand Seiko to impress yourself."


This guy. There is always one. It's ok if you like your Rolex, bud. We won't judge.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mleok

GFSEA86 said:


> This guy. There is always one. It's ok if you like your Rolex, bud. We won't judge.


Oh, but you do, why lie?

But, seriously, I've never had a person ask me if my Rolex is fake, what kind of people do you hang out with that this is a real concern for you?


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## Mr.Jones82

mleok said:


> As for me, I'm annoyed with people who presume to know my motivations for buying a watch, with comments like, "you buy a Rolex to impress others, you buy a Grand Seiko to impress yourself."


Ugh, yeah that phrase always makes me cringe and I find it just as obnoxious even as a GS owner. There is more than a hint of condescension in that statement and a suggestion that GS owners have superior tastes and are an exclusive breed of in-the-know enthusiasts. Do I think people who use that phrase actually feel that way? Not really, but the underlying condescension in that phrase still exists whether they intend it to be there or not.

I also find this whole argument about buying a GS to be unique and not part of the herd absurd. Making a decision solely to be different and avoid what you view as "herd" mentality is just as superficial as buying a watch to impress others, isn't? You are allowing the tastes and opinions of others to dictate what you buy in both situations. Of course that is a rather extreme interpretation, but no more extreme I guess than assuming every Rolex owner is seeking the approval of others via his/her trinket(also, what if they were? So what? Couldn't this person still be a kind and considerate individual with a small penchant for vanity? Why is it on WUS that individuals who buy a watch for brand recognition are considered the lowest form of humanity? I generally think there is more to people than their taste in jewelry/watches. I digress.).

Anyway, I love GS, but I also respect and admire Rolex. I prefer GS overall because of the value it offers at a fraction of the price of a Rolex, and I don't think my love for GS or the next guy's love for Rolex says a single thing about our character or motivations (cue "Why Can't We Be Friends?" and slowly exit...).


----------



## mleok

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Ugh, yeah that phrase always makes me cringe and I find it just as obnoxious even as a GS owner. There is more than a hint of condescension in that statement and a suggestion that GS owners have superior tastes and are an exclusive breed of in-the-know enthusiasts. Do I think people who use that phrase actually feel that way? Not really, but the underlying condescension in that phrase still exists whether they intend it to be there or not.
> 
> I also find this whole argument about buying a GS to be unique and not part of the herd absurd. Making a decision solely to be different and avoid what you view as "herd" mentality is just as superficial as buying a watch to impress others, isn't? You are allowing the tastes and opinions of others to dictate what you buy in both situations. Of course that is a rather extreme interpretation, but no more extreme I guess than assuming every Rolex owner is seeking the approval of others via his/her trinket(also, what if they were? So what? Couldn't this person still be a kind and considerate individual with a small penchant for vanity? Why is it on WUS that individuals who buy a watch for brand recognition are considered the lowest form of humanity? I generally think there is more to people than their taste in jewelry/watches. I digress.).
> 
> Anyway, I love GS, but I also respect and admire Rolex. I prefer GS overall because of the value it offers at a fraction of the price of a Rolex, and I don't think my love for GS or the next guy's love for Rolex says a single thing about our character or motivations (cue "Why Can't We Be Friends?" and slowly exit...).


While I don't think you actually feel that way, I will say that I honestly believe that at least some Grand Seiko fans do exhibit a measure of intellectual snobbery and superiority. I also suspect that when it was originally coined, the condescension in that phrase was by design, even if not every person who uses it is conscious of that.

I've said before that while it's sad to buy a watch because of what others think, it's equally sad to avoid buying a watch you like because of what others think. I do wish that more people were able to enjoy the watches they have without feeling the need to denigrate other watches. But, more to the point, without denigrating the owners of other watches.

In any case, you're a good guy, and I would happily buy you a drink if you ever visit.


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## Mr.Jones82

mleok said:


> I do wish that more people were able to enjoy the watches they have without feeling the need to denigrate other watches. But, more to the point, without denigrating the owners of other watches.


Well said! I think we can all agree on that.


----------



## slow_mo

Buy what you like and not what others think of the watch. That, you will enjoy your watch more.










I like my DJ, I also like my GS.


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## rdoder

In dealing with a brand that is priced, designed, marketed and used for status signalling, instead of trying to change how the brand operates (you can't, not within your control) or deeply entrenched perceptions of every stranger out there in general public (you can't, not within your control), I just don't buy or wear it. YMMV

I like that GS is currently not marketed and used for status signalling in the general public. It's still a status symbol though online for those that know the brand, and the power reserve indicator on Spring Drive models is somewhat recognizable, though it doesn't stand out as much as Cyclops.

That's social aspect of Veblen watches.

Technical aspects of Veblen watches don't hold my interest in the long-term. OP is a Seiko fan that doesn't get GS? I kind of get that. I don't really wear or look at my two Veblen watches after honeymoon phase (1-2 years). My regular watches have more design-wise to look at.


----------



## DustinS

VintageTimepiece said:


> Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


Why would you even cross shop the two?

The rolex has that horrible magnifying glass for old men on the crystal. If you're of the age where you need bi focals and STILL need additional visual aids cool, but do you want your watch to scream "old man"?

The GS has a display back which frankly if I'm paying that much money for a movement and that's where we're spending our money...I'd like to see the thing working.

Plenty of subjective things with the designs to argue over. Personally the rolex is ugly, especially that model, but sure some might like it (people who wear depends for example).


----------



## DustinS

kamonjj said:


> All clasps on all Rolex lines are better than the GS dress watches. The OP has micro adjustments. The dj and the rest of the watches don't have large glidelock clasps but still have 3 micro adjustment areas and the easylink extension. The non glidelock clasps are still extremely small and provide not only many more adjustments than the GS offering but are just better designed. I'd even take the 5 digit stamped Rolex clasp over a modern GS clasp. At least it has micro adjustments to get a better fit.
> 
> I am a fit sensitive collector so it means more to me than most. It wouldn't be much for GS to update their clasp to make them function without adding a lot of bulk (new astron proved that this year). They have some watches with some better designed clasps yet they aren't implemented along the entire line.


The GS clasp also fails over time, it's a terrible system. It's a joke. But it's sadly just what you have to suffer for an overall better product otherwise.


----------



## mleok

slow_mo said:


> Buy what you like and not what others think of the watch. That, you will enjoy your watch more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like my DJ, I also like my GS.


That's an interesting dial and bracelet on the GS, which model is it?


----------



## mleok

DustinS said:


> Plenty of subjective things with the designs to argue over. Personally the rolex is ugly, especially that model, but sure some might like it *(people who wear depends for example)*.


That was unnecessary and uncouth. As I said above, you're entitled to like what you like, but there's no need to denigrate others which make different choices, it's just a watch after all.


----------



## DustinS

mleok said:


> Oh, but you do, why lie?
> 
> But, seriously, I've never had a person ask me if my Rolex is fake, what kind of people do you hang out with that this is a real concern for you?


I was going to make the comment that depending on one's place in life this might change, but then I remember a friend's father who owned tens of millions in acres of farm land proudly had a fake rolex (it was quartz even). So perhaps you give off the image of someone who'd not go there, but owning a fake rolex cross all paths of life.


----------



## DustinS

mleok said:


> That was unnecessary and uncouth. As I said above, you're entitled to like what you like, but there's no need to denigrate others which make different choices, it's just a watch after all.


Was clearly intended as a joke. Have a drink and unwind a bit man, it's new years day. We're talking about watches...not nuclear war.

I actually ADDED that comment to not make the cyclops joke not seem petty and jerky by going far more extreme so people would get it was tongue and cheek.


----------



## mrozowjj

41Mets said:


> If the OP is asking legitimate question, then how else would one know than by asking the question to get feedback information from others? I didn't know a thing about grand Seiko until I found these forums. The question The OP has asked may very well lead him to have a different opinion of Grand Seiko.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is an absolutely amazing picture of the 375 dial.


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## mleok

DustinS said:


> Was clearly intended as a joke. Have a drink and unwind a bit man, it's new years day. We're talking about watches...not nuclear war.
> 
> I actually ADDED that comment to not make the cyclops joke not seem petty and jerky by going far more extreme so people would get it was tongue and cheek.


I think this is when a silly emoji would have made your intentions clearer.


----------



## DustinS

mleok said:


> I think this is when a silly emoji would have made your intentions clearer.


Not a big emjoi guy, but come on. When is a reference to depends not supposed to be funny? You're a college professor...that was a running gag a decade ago with some of my professors! You of all people should get it  (there's your emoji).


----------



## guspech750

I’d be more in awe if I saw someone wearing a Grand Seiko than a Rolex any day of the week, month and year. Seeing a Rolex is like seeing a Toyota Camry on the road. There are a bazillion Rolex’s out there. Does nothing for me. 

But if I were to buy a Rolex. It would be a Milgauss. But I would easily choose a Grand Seiko with a Spring Drive first over all else. 


Sent from the White House on the tax payers dime.


----------



## mleok

DustinS said:


> Not a big emjoi guy, but come on. When is a reference to depends not supposed to be funny? You're a college professor...that was a running gag a decade ago with some of my professors! You of all people should get it  (there's your emoji).


I have to say this has never been a running gag with any of my colleagues. Maybe it's because some of them are quite a bit older, and it's a joke that would hit a bit too close to home to be funny. But, it is certainly true that professors tend to be able to stay in their jobs for much longer than most other professions because of tenure.


----------



## BrianBinFL

mleok said:


> As for me, I'm annoyed with people who presume to know my motivations for buying a watch, with comments like, "you buy a Rolex to impress others, you buy a Grand Seiko to impress yourself."


I've used that phrase before and never given it much thought, but I can certainly see your point.

First I think most people that say it don't mean "you" as in "you, mleok", they mean it more like "one", a gender-neutral, indefinite pronoun, meaning roughly "a person" as: "One wears a Rolex to impress others, one wears a Grand Seiko to impress oneself".

Even then it unnecessarily casts shade on Rolex and seems to presuppose the motivation of all Rolex owners. When I have used the phrase my primary point is that when one wears a Grand Seiko it is almost a certainty that nobody is going to notice it or care. There is nearly zero cachet except by a WIS. Ones doesn't wear it with any expectation of admiration from others, one wears it because it moves them.

When it comes to wearing watches at least partly in anticipation of recognition by others, I believe it would be very disingenuous to deny that Rolex wearers are more likely to have this motivation than those wearing any other brand. And that would stand to reason since Rolex has more cachet than any other brand (even vastly superior and more expensive brands). Of course that is not to say that all Rolex-wearers are so motivated as any time you say "all" you are almost certainly wrong.

I tried to turn it around into a Rolex compliment of sorts - recognizing their superior cachet - but I think it falls flat: "If one wants to impress others one should wear a Rolex. However one wears a Grand Seiko to impress oneself."

When speaking to WIS-types the phrase isn't really needed at all. Honestly it's more likely to come up in dealing with non-WIS-types who only know Rolex and literally know nothing else. Even then explanations probably have more value than catch phrases.

Thanks for raising my awareness to this.


----------



## mleok

BrianBinFL said:


> I've used that phrase before and never given it much thought, but I can certainly see your point.
> 
> First I think most people that say it don't mean "you" as in "you, mleok", they mean it more like "one", a gender-neutral, indefinite pronoun, meaning roughly "a person" as: "One wears a Rolex to impress others, one wears a Grand Seiko to impress oneself".
> 
> Even then it unnecessarily casts shade on Rolex and seems to presuppose the motivation of all Rolex owners. When I have used the phrase my primary point is that when one wears a Grand Seiko it is almost a certainty that nobody is going to notice it or care. There is nearly zero cachet except by a WIS. Ones doesn't wear it with any expectation of admiration from others, one wears it because it moves them.
> 
> When it comes to wearing watches at least partly in anticipation of recognition by others, I believe it would be very disingenuous to deny that Rolex wearers are more likely to have this motivation than those wearing any other brand. And that would stand to reason since Rolex has more cachet than any other brand (even vastly superior and more expensive brands). Of course that is not to say that all Rolex-wearers are so motivated as any time you say "all" you are almost certainly wrong.
> 
> I tried to turn it around into a Rolex compliment of sorts - recognizing their superior cachet - but I think it falls flat: "If one wants to impress others one should wear a Rolex. However one wears a Grand Seiko to impress oneself."
> 
> When speaking to WIS-types the phrase isn't really needed at all. Honestly it's more likely to come up in dealing with non-WIS-types who only know Rolex and literally know nothing else. Even then explanations probably have more value than catch phrases.
> 
> Thanks for raising my awareness to this.


Thanks for taking the time to share with us your introspection and reflection on the issue.

The funny thing is the fact that a Rolex is a visible status symbol was a negative factor in my decision to purchase it. I am well aware of the baggage that the Rolex name carries, and that had at least a part to play in me deciding to get a Vacheron Constantin Overseas instead of a Rolex as my first luxury watch. The other part was that I was not fond of the bracelet on the five digit Rolexes, the polished center links on the GMT IIC, the traffic cone orange GMT hand on the polar Explorer II, and the cyclops on the ceramic Submariner Date.

But, when the no date ceramic Submariner was announced, it fit all my aesthetic preferences, and I went in search of it as my second luxury watch. The funny thing is that when I was asking around for it, the most common comment I got from the ADs was that I shouldn't get it, since it wasn't instantly recognizable as a Rolex without the cyclops. Maybe they were just trying to sell me the Submariner Date which they had in stock, but in any case, the fact that it did not feature the iconic cyclops was part of the appeal for me.

Reflecting on the ownership experience, while the Submariner lacks the finer finishing of my VC Overseas, it is nevertheless exceptionally well made, wears extremely comfortably, and its design demonstrates a careful attention to the long term wearability of the watch. Put another way, a Grand Seiko needs to be looked at under a loupe to be fully appreciated, but a Rolex needs to be worn long term to be fully appreciated. Both brands put care and pride into their products, even if their emphasis is different.

The funny thing is that the watch I wear the most of all is my Tudor Black Bay Burgandy, simply because I like the warmth of the chocolate brown dial with gold surrounds on the hands and markers, coupled with the burgandy bezel.


----------



## DustinS

mleok said:


> I have to say this has never been a running gag with any of my colleagues. Maybe it's because some of them are quite a bit older, and it's a joke that would hit a bit too close to home to be funny. But, it is certainly true that professors tend to be able to stay in their jobs for much longer than most other professions because of tenure.


Perhaps not as common in the mathematics area, but the most common response to teacher's questions was often "Depends".


----------



## mleok

DustinS said:


> Perhaps not as common in the mathematics area, but the most common response to teacher's questions was often "Depends".


Okay, I see how that might work.


----------



## slow_mo

mleok said:


> That's an interesting dial and bracelet on the GS, which model is it?


That's the SBGV217. Cheers!


----------



## mleok

slow_mo said:


> That's the SBGV217. Cheers!


It looks great, thanks.


----------



## Tka92

Tonhao said:


> ... Also says Rolex on the dial..


Definitely the reason why a lot, if not most, people choose a Rolex  brand recognition goes a long way

Sendt fra min ELE-L29 med Tapatalk


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## snarfbot

So in group A we have people who wear Rolex to impress others and in group B we have people who sneer at those people in group A and look at their GS to reassure themselves that they are more sophisticated. 

Then in group C-Z we have people who feel various degrees of pity and disgust for groups A and B.

Its like a wis parable about predudice and the moral is that were all the same inside where it really counts.

Insecure. Lol.


----------



## T1meout

Regardless, OP has turned out to be a Maximus troll. Dropping a bomb and then totally ignoring the subsequent discussion.


----------



## rdoder

snarfbot said:


> So in group A we have people who wear Rolex to impress others and in group B we have people who sneer at those people in group A and look at their GS to reassure themselves that they are more sophisticated.
> 
> Then in group C-Z we have people who feel various degrees of pity and disgust for groups A and B.
> 
> Its like a wis parable about predudice and the moral is that were all the same inside where it really counts.
> 
> Insecure. Lol.


I guess there's a bit of that in everyone, but certainly, in myself anyway, sometimes I feel like I want to prove some point or other. LOL

For me, a lot about watches has to do with personal identity and comfort level. I don't really self-identify as someone that wears anything fancy for others to see, so despite the refined technical aspects of whatever luxury brand of watches, it's just not me. I prefer watches that are not too expensive to lose/damage, not too refined/precious to wear and scratch up, something that fits my self-image and lifestyle.

The latest watch that piqued my interest in-store was a G-Shock with some colorful sub-dial hands. Don't think I'll buy it (got more watches than I need), but would like to look up the model number and see its technical features or look at some pics of it.


----------



## dayandnight

snarfbot said:


> So in group A we have people who wear Rolex to impress others and in group B we have people who sneer at those people in group A and look at their GS to reassure themselves that they are more sophisticated.
> 
> Then in group C-Z we have people who feel various degrees of pity and disgust for groups A and B.
> 
> Its like a wis parable about predudice and the moral is that were all the same inside where it really counts.
> 
> Insecure. Lol.


what if you wear Rolex and GS to impress?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BrianBinFL

dayandnight said:


> what if you wear Rolex and GS to impress?


I would say just not at the same time.


----------



## 41Mets

These arguments are ridiculous. 

People in the sinn forums say they wear sinn because of the lack of marketing. But the lack of marketing is, in itself, marketing. They wear sinn over something more mainstream to feel good about wearing something Non mainstream. 

Grand Seiko fans may wear grand Seiko because it’s not marketed like a Rolex. But many, particularly those arguing like babies here, wear them because they feel a sense of superiority knowing they found something that Isn’t mainstream. So Rolex owners wear them because they are mainstream and status symbols and grand Seiko owners wear them because they feel like they have an under the radar status symbol that only those in a special club would know about. 

Any difference?

Personally I’d wear either and I wouldn’t care about what anyone here thinks. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Black5

Reminds me of a cartoon I saw recently:

Man 1: When I show people my Grand Seiko, and tell them about the quality finishing, and the unique technology, everyone is impressed.

Man2: When I show people my Rolex, I don't say anything and everyone is impressed...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


So many watches, So little time...


----------



## Dan GSR

41Mets said:


> These arguments are ridiculous.
> 
> People in the sinn forums say they wear sinn because of the lack of marketing. But the lack of marketing is, in itself, marketing. They wear sinn over something more mainstream to feel good about wearing something Non mainstream.
> 
> Grand Seiko fans may wear grand Seiko because it's not marketed like a Rolex. But many, particularly those arguing like babies here, wear them because they feel a sense of superiority knowing they found something that Isn't mainstream. So Rolex owners wear them because they are mainstream and status symbols and grand Seiko owners wear them because they feel like they have an under the radar status symbol that only those in a special club would know about.
> 
> Any difference?
> 
> Personally I'd wear either and I wouldn't care about what anyone here thinks.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Rolex makes nice watches 
My personal reason for refusing to buy the brand is the view of a lot of non WIS
Either think it's fake, or I'm just showing off. No non WIS is gonna think twice about a GS or Sinn


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## kamonjj

I don’t understand this whole being asked if it’s fake nonsense. I’ve never been asked if my watch is fake, ever.


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## mrozowjj

The one thing I will say is Rolex is probably the most well known watch brand in the world and as such there are a lot of people wearing Rolex watches that aren't really watch nerds... if that makes sense. If I see someone wearing a Sinn, Damasko, Grand Seiko, really any watch that costs more than $1000 that doesn't say Rolex and I start up a conversation with them odds are good they are a watch nerd and I can have a fun conversation about watches with them but if I see someone wearing a Rolex and try to talk with them about watch about half of the time I get a "Huh? Oh right this thing. Yeah I like it/my wife bought it for me/they gave it to me when I retired/it was father's." and that's kind of the end of the conversation.

People can do whatever they want but because of this I went from getting excited when I do see a rare Rolex in the wild to being less so because odds are good the person wearing it kind of doesn't care about watches the way I do. It'd be like seeing someone driving a vintage car or something more car enthusiast focused like a Ford Focus RS, Dodge Hellcat, Porsche 911 or whatever and trying to have a conversation with them about cars and finding out they don't care about cars.


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## mleok

mrozowjj said:


> If I see someone wearing ... really any watch that costs more than $1000 that doesn't say Rolex and I start up a conversation with them odds are good they are a watch nerd...


Umm, I don't know about that, plenty of people who wear Omegas, Tags, Cartiers, Longines, and Breitlings aren't watch nerds.


----------



## mleok

mrozowjj said:


> People can do whatever they want but because of this I went from getting excited when I do see a rare Rolex in the wild to being less so because odds are good the person wearing it kind of doesn't care about watches the way I do.


I see that as an opportunity to make a deal...


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## Tonhao

Both excel at what they specialize. In polishing and microscopic detail GS wins hands down. But in bracelet fit and robustness, Rolex fully deserves the crown. If you spent time with both watches you can see that their core products don’t overlap as much as people think. GS is kind of in between Rolex Cellini and Datejust in terms of design, whereas Rolex is mostly in the sports watch category now. Which is why most of these comparison posts end up looking like “Which is better? Patek Aquanaut or Vacheron Patrimony”


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## limnoman

Dan GSR said:


> Rolex makes nice watches
> My personal reason for refusing to buy the brand is the view of a lot of non WIS
> Either think it's fake, or I'm just showing off. No non WIS is gonna think twice about a GS or Sinn


Isn't there a cartoon showing this?


----------



## koolpep

I like this Cellini. Looks a bit like the Presage Cocktail time or the other way around,

This form of tribalism is not my cup of tea. I am confidently in both camps GS and Rolex. I was in the anti a Rolex camp for a long time, finding them stale, uninspiring and nouveau riche, show off watches. As you learn more about watches though I saw a lot of things I like in the brand and eventually ended up with one. I love it. I also love my GSs for different reasons.

Just the really bad clasps and the overall bracelet quality, man GS we know you can do it....


----------



## koolpep

Dan GSR said:


> Rolex makes nice watches
> My personal reason for refusing to buy the brand is the view of a lot of non WIS
> Either think it's fake, or I'm just showing off. No non WIS is gonna think twice about a GS or Sinn


You are refusing the brand because of what other people think about it....vs choosing a brand that other people have no opinion about. You are Switzerland. Very neutral 

Usually it's like that: I don't care what people think, hence I wear GS, not I do care what people think hence I don't wear a Rolex.

Glad we have so many diverse opinions here, honestly. It's watches, except Us not many people care.


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## Dan GSR

I'm also unwilling to play games with ADs to get there desirable Rolex.


----------



## koolpep

Dan GSR said:


> I'm also unwilling to play games with ADs to get there desirable Rolex.


Yeah that is indeed a massive turnoff indeed. I remember 10 years ago the availability was there, used prices were lower than new (not by much but that was the beauty of Rolex) and besides the Daytona - there was no waiting list to speak of.


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## NyCSnEaK

Had a DateJust till getting this GS. Haven't looked back since. Better than a DJ in every way imo, unless you want a fluted bezel. BOR bracelet is perfect on this model. Thought it was pos, when first sized and worn. Boy was I in the wrong.


----------



## Dan GSR

koolpep said:


> Yeah that is indeed a massive turnoff indeed. .


There are so many other great watches to even bother with AD games.


----------



## BigSeikoFan

DustinS said:


> The GS clasp also fails over time, it's a terrible system. It's a joke. But it's sadly just what you have to suffer for an overall better product otherwise.


How does it fail? I've been told the squeeze the pushers when closing, so maybe they're on to something. Have gotten in the habit of doing that. Fingers crossed.


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## BarracksSi

BigSeikoFan said:


> How does it fail? I've been told the squeeze the pushers when closing, so maybe they're on to something. Have gotten in the habit of doing that. Fingers crossed.


I think it shouldn't require extra care just for daily use, so I share the opinion that GS could do better with their clasp. At a glance, though, it also seems similar to how my Citizen's clasp operates, and it hasn't failed yet (knock on wood; and I haven't worn it nearly as much in the past four years as I did when it was new).

As far as GS vs DJ is concerned, after I started evaluating all the info about service & support that I could find behind various brands, it got really easy to justify aiming for Rolex. I've got at least a half-dozen Rolex ADs in this area where I could take one, and probably even more independent repair shops, too. Not many other brands at any price tier could boast the same level of support.

GS looks just fabulous in person, though. But if it weren't for having a GS AD nearby, I wouldn't seriously consider shopping for one.


----------



## Erik10893

Grand seiko dials and hands are finished beautifully.


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## BrianBinFL

I don't think I've read of a steel clasp experiencing accelerated wear - I've only seen this come up on the titanium ones.


----------



## aalin13

koolpep said:


> Yeah that is indeed a massive turnoff indeed. I remember 10 years ago the availability was there, used prices were lower than new (not by much but that was the beauty of Rolex) and besides the Daytona - there was no waiting list to speak of.


Actually, other than the Daytona, all other pieces were on display when I visited Hong Kong back in 2017, literally could just walk in, ask for a discount and buy it on the spot. The whole market has gone a bit crazy in the last 3 years.

I don't mind an actual wait list with a reasonable time frame, but the current situation requiring relationship building with the AD and becoming their VIP before being allowed to buy one is getting a bit out of hand.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Keaman

NyCSnEaK said:


> Had a DateJust till getting this GS. Haven't looked back since. Better than a DJ in every way imo, unless you want a fluted bezel. BOR bracelet is perfect on this model. Thought it was pos, when first sized and worn. Boy was I in the wrong.
> 
> View attachment 14751081


That is one of my dream Grand Seiko's man! Exactly that one on that bracelet.


----------



## Keaman

BigSeikoFan said:


> How does it fail? I've been told the squeeze the pushers when closing, so maybe they're on to something. Have gotten in the habit of doing that. Fingers crossed.


I thought that was an odd statement too. The double push button clasp on all the GS's I've owned over the past 10 years (and one was over 10 years old) has been completely secure :-s


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## NyCSnEaK

Keaman said:


> That is one of my dream Grand Seiko's man! Exactly that one on that bracelet.


Thanks bud. I have no complaints about it. Very nice watch. I'm going to be adding a GS Winter dial to my box very soon. That dial is so mesmerizing and beautiful. Looks like I'm staring right into the clouds. GS makes a fine damn watch. I feel just as good wearing it, as I do with my DD, Railmaster, and Bathyscaphe. Those are my three favorites out of all of them.


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## Mr.Jones82

Keaman said:


> BigSeikoFan said:
> 
> 
> 
> How does it fail? I've been told the squeeze the pushers when closing, so maybe they're on to something. Have gotten in the habit of doing that. Fingers crossed.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought that was an odd statement too. The double push button clasp on all the GS's I've owned over the past 10 years (and one was over 10 years old) has been completely secure
Click to expand...

Only for titanium models as far as I know. I'm not sure how common the problem is, but here you go.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/forums...snowflake-potential-damage-4930909.html?amp=1


----------



## Jostack

koolpep said:


> I like this Cellini. Looks a bit like the Presage Cocktail time or the other way around,
> 
> This form of tribalism is not my cup of tea. I am confidently in both camps GS and Rolex. I was in the anti a Rolex camp for a long time, finding them stale, uninspiring and nouveau riche, show off watches. As you learn more about watches though I saw a lot of things I like in the brand and eventually ended up with one. I love it. I also love my GSs for different reasons.
> 
> Just the really bad clasps and the overall bracelet quality, man GS we know you can do it....


Uhhh, that's a really nice Cellini!

I disagree with the GS bracelet/clasp comment. While not on par with Rolex, the only real problem is the lack of micro adjustment.


----------



## Keaman

Jostack said:


> Uhhh, that's a really nice Cellini!
> 
> I disagree with the GS bracelet/clasp comment. While not on par with Rolex, the only real problem is the lack of micro adjustment.


Yeah I don't get all the negativity about GS bracelets and clasps either. True about the micro-adjustment, but the bracelet is beautiful and solid, as is the clasp. And I've always loved the design of the GS logo on the clasp. One thing I love about Rolex's bracelet is the big meaty link screws though. I had to buy magnifying reading glasses to remove the screws on my GS, they're literally microscopic! I think I'd actually take pins and collars over those.


----------



## BrianBinFL

Keaman said:


> Yeah I don't get all the negativity about GS bracelets and clasps either. True about the micro-adjustment, but the bracelet is beautiful and solid, as is the clasp. And I've always loved the design of the GS logo on the clasp. One thing I love about Rolex's bracelet is the big meaty link screws though. I had to buy magnifying reading glasses to remove the screws on my GS, they're literally microscopic! I think I'd actually take pins and collars over those.


While dealing with the micro screws may require a steady hand and a good magnifier, I believe the GS design to be vastly superior to the Rolex screw-pin. With the GS setup it is impossible for flexing of the pivot in the bracelet to loosen the screws. And the pin is free to rotate independently within the pivot.

On the other hand the Rolex screw-pin may be easier to work with, but the pin aspect of the screw-pin cannot rotate independently within the link and the flexing of the link can unscrew it from the link.

During a trip to Louisiana in November I was sitting with my hands in the pockets of my jacket and felt an odd sensation on my left wrist. Somehow my Submariner had gone from being on my wrist to being in the bottom of my jacket pocket and reflexively cupped into my hand. I pulled my hand out and realized the bracelet was separated between two links. The link screw-pin was found shortly thereafter - still in the jacket.

Thankfully this happened while my hands were in my pockets (it was crazy cold while we were in NOLA) because if my hand was hanging at my side the watch would have taken a quick trip to the pavement.

Yes, there is a simple solution for this - you can dope the screw-pins with a little blue Loctite and then you'll never have to worry about it again. But you never have to worry about it in the first place with the GS design.

Something to consider.


----------



## koolpep

Jostack said:


> Uhhh, that's a really nice Cellini!
> 
> I disagree with the GS bracelet/clasp comment. While not on par with Rolex, the only real problem is the lack of micro adjustment.


You know i complain because I like GS so much, their watches are awesome. I feel the quality of my similar priced Tudors is so much better. But I have the "entry level" GS bracelet on my watches, SBGN009 and SBGA283 so that may be one factor. The clasp is OK at best (looks and comfort are great, I admit), it wears out apparently if you press-close it without using the pushers and the lack of any micro adjustment paired with the microscopic screws to adjust the bracelet yourself, is really buggin me.

If you are happy with the bracelet and especially clasp, that's awesome! I wish I would be, I might wear the watches even more. But maybe I am spoiled from the Tudor, Rolex bracelets of recent times.

Anyhow, while I am complaining, I am considering adding another GS to my collection, so obviously my complaints are not that dramatic as they might seem. It's my ONLY issue I have with GS. I really would love to see GS add my major missing feature either a quick adjustment or a micro adjustment to it. I would even buy it as an optional purchase add on.


----------



## drhr

Sparrowhawk said:


> To the OP, please be interactive with respect to the thread you've started.
> 
> In that light, provide your rationale for why you like the Rolex DateJust.


Good luck . . . .


----------



## BrianBinFL

drhr said:


> Sparrowhawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the OP, please be interactive with respect to the thread you've started.
> 
> In that light, provide your rationale for why you like the Rolex DateJust.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck . . . .
Click to expand...

Yeah. Not likely to happen. The OP started 3 threads about a week ago. All 3 were about Seiko. Other than the original post for each thread the OP never posted again in any of those threads. Rather odd.


----------



## FishingForFishies

May have been a troll, but I’ve appreciated most of the discussion in this thread anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jostack

koolpep said:


> You know i complain because I like GS so much, their watches are awesome. I feel the quality of my similar priced Tudors is so much better. But I have the "entry level" GS bracelet on my watches, SBGN009 and SBGA283 so that may be one factor. The clasp is OK at best (looks and comfort are great, I admit), it wears out apparently if you press-close it without using the pushers and the lack of any micro adjustment paired with the microscopic screws to adjust the bracelet yourself, is really buggin me.
> 
> If you are happy with the bracelet and especially clasp, that's awesome! I wish I would be, I might wear the watches even more. But maybe I am spoiled from the Tudor, Rolex bracelets of recent times.
> 
> Anyhow, while I am complaining, I am considering adding another GS to my collection, so obviously my complaints are not that dramatic as they might seem. It's my ONLY issue I have with GS. I really would love to see GS add my major missing feature either a quick adjustment or a micro adjustment to it. I would even buy it as an optional purchase add on.


Well, you're not crazy. I think I would wear my n001 more as well if the bracelet were more 'Rolex-like'. I think I'm going to try a canvas or leather strap on it.


----------



## DVR

BrianBinFL said:


> Thankfully this happened while my hands were in my pockets (it was crazy cold while we were in NOLA) because if my hand was hanging at my side the watch would have taken a quick trip to the pavement.


I was not so lucky with an AP once. Screw became loose and fell out without me noticing, watch dropped to the floor damaging the bezel.
AP service was great though, they replaced bezel at no cost.

About the GS bracelet. I do not want to be rude. But IMO it is user error if a GS bracelet is not comfortable. Anyone can find the perfect sweet spot without the need of micro adjustments. The half links provide every possible sizing possibility.

Or maybe, just maybe, being overweight might be an issue?? Maybe obese people's wrists swell more? I have no idea but just a thought.

Also, I have worn over 12 different Rolexes and I find the extra play and movement in the clasp and bracelet of GS a big plus and so far have not needed extra room on my SBGA375. Also people keep mentioning the micro adjustment but that is not something you do on the fly. The only quick adjustment on the Rolex is the easylink. And that ads 5 mm if I am not mistaken. That is a lot. Way too much for me. Never used it on my Datejust.


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## bigclive2011

GS are a great watch, I am loving my Snowflake.

However Rolex are great watches as well, it is just the game being played with availability that is sending long term Rolex fans looking for alternatives, and I class myself as one in this category.

I have not bought a Rolex since the game began a few years ago, and have looked to the likes of GS and JLC as my alternatives.


----------



## koolpep

DVR said:


> I was not so lucky with an AP once. Screw became loose and fell out without me noticing, watch dropped to the floor damaging the bezel.
> AP service was great though, they replaced bezel at no cost.
> 
> About the GS bracelet. I do not want to be rude. But IMO it is user error if a GS bracelet is not comfortable. Anyone can find the perfect sweet spot without the need of micro adjustments. The half links provide every possible sizing possibility.
> 
> Or maybe, just maybe, being overweight might be an issue?? Maybe obese people's wrists swell more? I have no idea but just a thought.
> 
> Also, I have worn over 12 different Rolexes and I find the extra play and movement in the clasp and bracelet of GS a big plus and so far have not needed extra room on my SBGA375. Also people keep mentioning the micro adjustment but that is not something you do on the fly. The only quick adjustment on the Rolex is the easylink. And that ads 5 mm if I am not mistaken. That is a lot. Way too much for me. Never used it on my Datejust.


Sure - obese watch people who are "holding it wrong" 

Maybe you don't live in a country with 80% humidity during the summer or where in the summer the outside temp reaches 50 C/122F - it really makes a difference to be able to have micro adjustments. Not necessary on the fly but I really like that extra space on my Rolex Datejust 41. But in general. If you don't need them be happy. I am by no means skinny but also not obese.


----------



## Jostack

DVR said:


> I was not so lucky with an AP once. Screw became loose and fell out without me noticing, watch dropped to the floor damaging the bezel.
> AP service was great though, they replaced bezel at no cost.
> 
> About the GS bracelet. I do not want to be rude. But IMO it is user error if a GS bracelet is not comfortable. Anyone can find the perfect sweet spot without the need of micro adjustments. The half links provide every possible sizing possibility.
> 
> Or maybe, just maybe, being overweight might be an issue?? Maybe obese people's wrists swell more? I have no idea but just a thought.
> 
> Also, I have worn over 12 different Rolexes and I find the extra play and movement in the clasp and bracelet of GS a big plus and so far have not needed extra room on my SBGA375. Also people keep mentioning the micro adjustment but that is not something you do on the fly. The only quick adjustment on the Rolex is the easylink. And that ads 5 mm if I am not mistaken. That is a lot. Way too much for me. Never used it on my Datejust.


You can speak for yourself, but the overwhelming majority of comments here indicate it is pretty common to need a little 'extra' size occasionally. Making a sweeping generalization by saying 'anyone' can get a perfect fit, totally misses the point. Or maybe we are all just dumb and too fat for a GS? That's not where I would have gone in the world of possible suggestions.


----------



## blowlamp

But everyone's OK with Pateks & Vacherons etc, that don't have micro-adjust or even Rolex Oysterflex that need to be 'selected' to fit properly, but not GS?


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## koolpep

blowlamp said:


> But everyone's OK with Pateks & Vacherons etc, that don't have micro-adjust or even Rolex Oysterflex that need to be 'selected' to fit properly, but not GS?


Not at all! I would find them equally bad if I would have them in my collection. By the way, Longines has the same issue but since it's a level below we won't mention it... and with an oyster flex you still have all the adjustments of the clasp at your disposal, right? Not the on the fly ones but the ones on the clasp itself.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/RepTime/comments/9jrr24


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## Bcduke2

Finishing is exceptional on GS. Both make a great product, some comes back to preference 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## koolpep

Bcduke2 said:


> Finishing is exceptional on GS. Both make a great product, some comes back to preference
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It totally is and that's why I really love and appreciate GS, love mine, they are awesome, I just wish they would spend a few more of their thoughts in the clasp/bracelet for some of us ( happy to pay extra if optional)....


----------



## rdoder

If GS put two micro-adjustment holes into the existing clasp and make the clasp just slightly longer to add one micro-adjustment hole, that would go a long way to give an optimal sizing that's not too loose or too tight most of the time. But it would disrupt the "integrated" look, and then some people might complain about that. LOL


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## aalin13

To be fair, the clasp design is really more a difference in philosophy, and personal preference. Grand Seiko's clasp goes for the more integrated look, similar to those used on the Rolex President bracelet, Omega Aqua Terra, AP RO, or PP Nautilus. None of them have micro adjustments on the clasp, and all require half links to get that seamless look.

Grand Seiko does offer clasp with micro adjustments on their Sports watches, like the divers and the SD GMT chronograph. The divers even feature on the go adjustment like the Rolex divers. But there is no disputing the fact that Grand Seiko need to improve the design and quality of their clasp with on the go micro adjustment, it is seriously dated compared to the glidelock.

By the way, personally not a fan of the easylink, as it only offers a 5mm increment, which is more than two adjacent holes on clasps with spring bar micro adjustment, the glidelock with 2mm increment is far more useful to me. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## Keaman

BrianBinFL said:


> While dealing with the micro screws may require a steady hand and a good magnifier, I believe the GS design to be vastly superior to the Rolex screw-pin. With the GS setup it is impossible for flexing of the pivot in the bracelet to loosen the screws. And the pin is free to rotate independently within the pivot.
> 
> On the other hand the Rolex screw-pin may be easier to work with, but the pin aspect of the screw-pin cannot rotate independently within the link and the flexing of the link can unscrew it from the link.
> 
> During a trip to Louisiana in November I was sitting with my hands in the pockets of my jacket and felt an odd sensation on my left wrist. Somehow my Submariner had gone from being on my wrist to being in the bottom of my jacket pocket and reflexively cupped into my hand. I pulled my hand out and realized the bracelet was separated between two links. The link screw-pin was found shortly thereafter - still in the jacket.
> 
> Thankfully this happened while my hands were in my pockets (it was crazy cold while we were in NOLA) because if my hand was hanging at my side the watch would have taken a quick trip to the pavement.
> 
> Yes, there is a simple solution for this - you can dope the screw-pins with a little blue Lock-tite and then you'll never have to worry about it again. But you never have to worry about it in the first place with the GS design.
> 
> Something to consider.


Yes you're right, I think I did realise that when I got my first GS, the way the link pivots around the pin without putting any friction on the screws in the ends. It is a practical design I guess. Just, umm, fun, to adjust lol


----------



## BrianBinFL

rdoder said:


> If GS put two micro-adjustment holes into the existing clasp and make the clasp just slightly longer to add one micro-adjustment hole, that would go a long way to give an optimal sizing that's not too loose or too tight most of the time. But it would disrupt the "integrated" look, and then some people might complain about that. LOL


I would never forgive them for it. If they are going to have some sort of micro-adjust it would need to be completely concealed.


----------



## mleok

BrianBinFL said:


> I would never forgive them for it. If they are going to have some sort of micro-adjust it would need to be completely concealed.


The new Vacheron Constantin Overseas has a very nice and subtle micro adjustment system in their clasp, Grand Seiko should have a look at it for inspiration.


----------



## BrianBinFL

mleok said:


> The new Vacheron Constantin Overseas has a very nice and subtle micro adjustment system in their clasp, Grand Seiko should have a look at it for inspiration.


I looked at a few pics of that clasp last night when you posted this and will look at some others when I get a chance. I've often entertained the notion of designing my own replacement clasp. Though I am proficient with CAD and a have machine shop at my disposal, these clasps typically have a lot of curves and other attributes that make them VERY difficult to machine. Some day 3D printing directly to metal will be better than it is today and then I could just design a clasp and print it without having to worry about being able to mill it out of a block of stainless.


----------



## kamonjj

A clasp they already have will solve the issue entirely:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seiko-astron-5x-adjustable-clasp-4918707.html


----------



## HiggsBoson

VintageTimepiece said:


> Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


The allure is quite simple. You can actually go into a Grand Seiko boutique and purchase a watch. Try buying a Rolex and not being placed on some imaginary 'list'. :roll:


----------



## simonp67

HiggsBoson said:


> The allure is quite simple. You can actually go into a Grand Seiko boutique and purchase a watch. Try buying a Rolex and not being placed on some imaginary 'list'. :roll:


Doesnt that suggest that the Rolex is more desirable and more in demand than GS then? People are buying GS as a second choice because their first choice isnt currently available?


----------



## aalin13

simonp67 said:


> Doesnt that suggest that the Rolex is more desirable and more in demand than GS then? People are buying GS as a second choice because their first choice isnt currently available?


Yes, Rolex is more desirable and more in demand for the population of consumers as a whole, it is pretty much the default choice for people not into watches looking to buy a nice watch. That doesn't mean Grand Seiko has no allure for the individual buyers, especially amongst the WUS crowd that appreciate it's design and craftsmanship.

For me, I can never get into Rolex, I find them a bit cold and clinical, really well made, but a bit dull. They have the best bracelet in the industry, especially the glidelock system on their divers. But I don't like their case design, slab sided, and blocky, so aesthetically a bit boring to me. In comparison, the 44GS case, with its intricate facets and curves is a work of art.

Another aspect are the hands and markers, on the Rolex, they are made precisely to a high quality, but on the Grand Seiko, they are beautifully faceted with contrasting polish that reflects light differently when the watch is rotated.

At the end of the day, this is all a personal preference. Go and look at a Grand Seiko in person, and if you still don't see the appeal, that's fine, stick to Rolex. Rolex makes possibly the best mass produced watches in the industry, but to me, they are extremely well made product that feels a bit boring.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## jpccarguy

DVR said:


> Since accuracy has been brought up:
> 
> I prefer Rolex over any GS automatic.
> I prefer GS SD over any Rolex.
> 
> No SD? Not interested.


Rolex: no Ti. Also no SD, ergo, all Rolex products are less accurate.

QED


----------



## brandon5513

I would choose a Rolex DJ all day long. I like the vintage models though for the smaller case.


----------



## kidk007

Top reason to chose a vintage GS over a vintage DJ is price. Here is a pic of a GS 45S (from early 70s) that is roughly the same size as a DJ of the same era.
I picked up my mint GS 45S a few years ago for under $1K
The GS has a far more superior movement at 36K bph.
No way a mint DJ could've been picked up at that price a few years ago.

(Not my pics. I'm on business travel so stole pic from thegrandseikoguy.com)





















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gumpy-au

what an epic thread, where is OP? I have both a DJ and GS GMT. I got the GS over the Rolex equivalent because it was available and it's insanely good value for what it is.


----------



## Toothbras

kidk007 said:


> Top reason to chose a vintage GS over a vintage DS is price. Here is a pic of a GS 45S (from early 70s) that is roughly the same size as a DS of the same era.
> I picked up my mint GS 45S a few years ago for under $1K
> The GS has a far more superior movement at 36K bph.
> No way a mint DS could've been picked up at that price a few years ago.
> 
> (Not my pics. I'm on business travel so stole pic from thegrandseikoguy.com)
> 
> View attachment 14758703
> View attachment 14758701
> View attachment 14758699
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What does ds mean?


----------



## Hosum

This thread has become very unproductive. You have people here genuinely trying to share why they like Grand Seiko or why they like Rolex, but from the get go, this entire thread was framed in a very silly way by the OP to illicit emotional responses.

Why this thread has 213 likes, 17 pages, and continues to grow is bewildering---but I suppose that's the end result when someone is trolling. 

If it's sincere information or education that one is looking for, there are plenty of threads here in WUS shared by past forum members on what attracts them to Grand Seiko... YouTube... Google..., etc. Heck, there is a similar thread on RolexForums where avid Rolex collectors ask about 'why Grand Seiko'. Yet, the question was asked in a far more respectful way and a healthy discussion with lots of information were shared.


----------



## kamonjj

Toothbras said:


> What does ds mean?


I was wondering the same thing. I'm not familiar with that model


----------



## FishingForFishies

Probably just meant DJ but it got autocorrected. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BigEmpty

i dunno but watchfinder & co told me to and here I am lol


----------



## kidk007

Toothbras said:


> What does ds mean?


Typo on my part. Should've been DJ not DS.
DJ = Datejust

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DustinS

Jostack said:


> Uhhh, that's a really nice Cellini!
> 
> I disagree with the GS bracelet/clasp comment. While not on par with Rolex, the only real problem is the lack of micro adjustment.


eh...I've had my GS clasp fail and I had to have it replaced. The system is bad imo.


----------



## DustinS

BigSeikoFan said:


> How does it fail? I've been told the squeeze the pushers when closing, so maybe they're on to something. Have gotten in the habit of doing that. Fingers crossed.


Yeah I think that's what lead to mime failing.

Ultimately, the fear is the pin wears down over the years (that'll take time) or the tiny little spring in the pushers wears out from you pushing it closed. Mind lasted about 2-3 years, mind you I did almost obsessively play with it.


----------



## DVR

DustinS said:


> mind you I did almost obsessively play with it.


There's your answer ;-)

I had on my Rolex Sub: 
2 bezel failures, one on a 5 digit, one on the 6 digit.
On a 5 digit the clasp got loose. 
AP chrono: a subdial hand got loose. 
And I can go on and on.

Nothing is perfect. But saying the 'system is bad' because you kind of abused it, is wrong imo. Not saying they can't improve, there is always room for improvement, any brand, any time, but I like the clasp as it is now. And I am sure mine will work for decades. Squeeze the pushers and it'll last a life time!


----------



## DustinS

DVR said:


> There's your answer ;-)
> 
> I had on my Rolex Sub:
> 2 bezel failures, one on a 5 digit, one on the 6 digit.
> On a 5 digit the clasp got loose.
> AP chrono: a subdial hand got loose.
> And I can go on and on.
> 
> Nothing is perfect. But saying the 'system is bad' because you kind of abused it, is wrong imo. Not saying they can't improve, there is always room for improvement, any brand, any time, but I like the clasp as it is now. And I am sure mine will work for decades. Squeeze the pushers and it'll last a life time!


My playing with it was no more squeezing of the pushers than would happen with a few more years of wear. The springs on it will absolutely fail eventually and it is a single prong clasp. There's no additional help/support nor a way to reduce the stress. And again squeezing the springs is what WILL cause it to fail.


----------



## BrianBinFL

DustinS said:


> eh...I've had my GS clasp fail and I had to have it replaced. The system is bad imo.





DustinS said:


> Mind lasted about 2-3 years, mind you I did almost obsessively play with it.


Steel or titanium?


----------



## Gravyboat6969

Different strokes for different folks. For me it's better finishing, more beautiful dials and more variety. Not to mention the name tax associated with rolex.


----------



## DVR

DustinS said:


> And again squeezing the springs is what WILL cause it to fail.


We'll just have to wait and see. Shall report in a decade or so. ;-)
But even, 2 small screws and you open up the clasp and replace the $5 spring. No biggie really, agree?


----------



## DustinS

DVR said:


> We'll just have to wait and see. Shall report in a decade or so. ;-)
> But even, 2 small screws and you open up the clasp and replace the $5 spring. No biggie really, agree?


You know I thought the same thing, but I took it to an AD (who has a legit real watch repair expert) and also talked with the boutique I got the watch from. They chose to replace the clasp which created it's own issue because those pins are BRUTAL to get off and the end result doesn't look super nice (I'm not OCD so it really has never bothered me) as the pin kinda looks like it was damaged. That said it's working fine, nobody but me would notice, and I have zero concerns with it functioning. That said it was free, just a pain between having the part shipped and having someone else do the work as I couldn't get the pin to move for the life of me. But yes, I was surprised gettin ga



BrianBinFL said:


> Steel or titanium?


Steel but I doubt they use different springs and the spring is what failed, not the pin.


----------



## DVR

Thanks for your additional explanation Dustin ! 
Than I would just buy the clasp and switch the spring, if that would be possible. 
Anyway, as with everything, wear is inevitable and I don't worry about that minor detail really.


----------



## BrianBinFL

DustinS said:


> You know I thought the same thing, but I took it to an AD (who has a legit real watch repair expert) and also talked with the boutique I got the watch from. They chose to replace the clasp which created it's own issue because those pins are BRUTAL to get off and the end result doesn't look super nice (I'm not OCD so it really has never bothered me) as the pin kinda looks like it was damaged. That said it's working fine, nobody but me would notice, and I have zero concerns with it functioning. That said it was free, just a pain between having the part shipped and having someone else do the work as I couldn't get the pin to move for the life of me.


Glad you mentioned this so I can have it in my head if this ever comes up. I would never settle for "nobody but you will notice". I'd make them disassemble the new clasp and transfer the spring to the old clasp. Much less issue with cosmetic troubles that way.



DustinS said:


> Steel but I doubt they use different springs and the spring is what failed, not the pin.


Yeah, sorry, I forgot this was a spring issue not an issue with the blades that grab the pin. Thanks.


----------



## DustinS

BrianBinFL said:


> Glad you mentioned this so I can have it in my head if this ever comes up. I would never settle for "nobody but you will notice". I'd make them disassemble the new clasp and transfer the spring to the old clasp. Much less issue with cosmetic troubles that way.
> 
> Yeah, sorry, I forgot this was a spring issue not an issue with the blades that grab the pin. Thanks.


They didn't seem overly interested...if I can find my old clasp maybe I'll open it up and see how easy a fix that would have been. But yeah, I mean it's a watch, you scratch them the hell up over time. I figure it can be worked on when I send it for servicing if I ever get around to doing that (I should)


----------



## DustinS

DVR said:


> Thanks for your additional explanation Dustin !
> Than I would just buy the clasp and switch the spring, if that would be possible.
> Anyway, as with everything, wear is inevitable and I don't worry about that minor detail really.


i mean the thing is I've got a Tag where I've slipped and fallen on my butt, but landed watch strap first, I've brutalized that thing....the clasp isn't any thicker than the GS (doesn't look at nice), and while it doesn't hold and catch as well as it did new, it still works fine, doesn't fail, and has lasted years longer than the GS. I'm sorry but it was just a bad clasp design imo. I don't think a clasp no longer working is a minor detail. There's really nothing more important than the watch staying on your wrist when you're doing things. Mind you, I bought another GS after all this. I love the brand, but the clasp is a huge failing imo. I'm not the first person to complain about it and I won't be the last.


----------



## gychang03

Hosum said:


> Heck, there is a similar thread on RolexForums where avid Rolex collectors ask about 'why Grand Seiko'. Yet, the question was asked in a far more respectful way and a healthy discussion with lots of information were shared.


Can you link it here? I searched the rolex thread and didn't come up with much.. there was one 2 page thread that's now closed. It did, however, have less emotion and more technical discussions.


----------



## DVR

Seiko section page 2, 'why buy a Seiko or Grand Seiko'.


----------



## BrianBinFL

DVR said:


> Seiko section page 2, 'why buy a Seiko or Grand Seiko'.


No doubt you are seeking to comply with the forum rules about posting links to competing watch forum sites. In this case I think the link would be permissible under rule 13e which states:

_[L]inks or references to competitive watch forum sites may be used in posts from time to time only if they contain information pertinent to the topic under discussion. This usage will be solely at the Moderators' discretion._​
It certainly seems pertinent to the discussion, especially now that the discussion has broadened to include the topic of decorum.

I went and found and read the topic you referenced and have to admit I was impressed by the quality and objectivity of the posts.

Since the location of the topic will change over time (it won't always be on page 2) and since I think it is not violative of the rules, I'm going to post the link. If a moderator feels that posting the link is not in accordance with rule 13e I trust they will delete or modify the post and accept that I sincerely believed that posting it was not prohibited. I am not a member on the other forum, nor affiliated with it in any way.

Link


----------



## DVR

BrianBinFL said:


> No doubt you are seeking to comply with the forum rules about posting links to competing watch forum sites.


Indeed.
Anyway, happy you found it and even more that you found it worthwhile. |>


----------



## ImolaRed

Watched a youtube video a while ago that was pretty amazing.....

It was a reminder that people need to stop buying watches based on being an investment and more on what you're passionate about. Why buy a Rolex for an investment when you can get a GS that shows more passion in watchmaking to me.


----------



## BarracksSi

ImolaRed said:


> Watched a youtube video a while ago that was pretty amazing.....


Which one?


----------



## DVR

This one


----------



## BarracksSi

DVR said:


> This one


Ah, ok. I thought it might've been one of these...


----------



## ImolaRed

DVR said:


> This one


That was it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BarracksSi

ImolaRed said:


> That was it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Shoulda said so


----------



## ImolaRed

BarracksSi said:


> Shoulda said so


Just did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hosum

gychang03 said:


> Can you link it here? I searched the rolex thread and didn't come up with much.. there was one 2 page thread that's now closed. It did, however, have less emotion and more technical discussions.





DVR said:


> Seiko section page 2, 'why buy a Seiko or Grand Seiko'.





BrianBinFL said:


> No doubt you are seeking to comply with the forum rules about posting links to competing watch forum sites. In this case I think the link would be permissible under rule 13e which states:
> 
> _[L]inks or references to competitive watch forum sites may be used in posts from time to time only if they contain information pertinent to the topic under discussion. This usage will be solely at the Moderators' discretion._​
> It certainly seems pertinent to the discussion, especially now that the discussion has broadened to include the topic of decorum.
> 
> I went and found and read the topic you referenced and have to admit I was impressed by the quality and objectivity of the posts.
> 
> Since the location of the topic will change over time (it won't always be on page 2) and since I think it is not violative of the rules, I'm going to post the link. If a moderator feels that posting the link is not in accordance with rule 13e I trust they will delete or modify the post and accept that I sincerely believed that posting it was not prohibited. I am not a member on the other forum, nor affiliated with it in any way.
> 
> Link


That is precisely the same thread that I was referring to. I found it to be a very interesting read as it unfolded. Especially as someone newer to watch collecting, who had started from Grand Seiko and was thinking about getting a Datejust at the time, it helped me in my subsequent purchasing decisions and let me appreciate my Grand Seikos even more, as well as my Datejust.


----------



## mrozowjj

NyCSnEaK said:


> Had a DateJust till getting this GS. Haven't looked back since. Better than a DJ in every way imo, unless you want a fluted bezel. BOR bracelet is perfect on this model. Thought it was pos, when first sized and worn. Boy was I in the wrong.
> 
> View attachment 14751081


Which model is that?


----------



## mrozowjj

kamonjj said:


> A clasp they already have will solve the issue entirely:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/seiko-astron-5x-adjustable-clasp-4918707.html


While this wouldn't quite fit with all of the GS watches from a style stand point I would love to see this make it's way to more of them.


----------



## vintage navitimer

Why would someone choose a Grand Seiko over a Rolex Datejust?

Why not?


----------



## WiZARD7

Just one picture, that says everything.


----------



## aalin13

WiZARD7 said:


> Just one picture, that says everything.
> 
> View attachment 14780655


That is a great photo for showing the difference. It seems to me that Omega is at the bottom in terms of finishing here.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## reuben3

Well either your title is for attention or GS has genuinely left you lost.

If the latter, most likely craftsmanship means lavish, luxury and quality to you and I think Rolex best represents that. Japanese craftsmanship is more like turning a piece of wood into a traditional sliding paper door, gathering some rocks and turning it into a garden, or snipping away at a plant until it transforms into a proper bonsai tree. The materials are nothing precious and you could even call it an over-worked Seiko.

I feel DJ and GS are in the same segment but it's certainly not one over the other. If you truly love watches you need both GS and a DJ in your collection! I personally have a SBGA375 because of it's 44gs case, dauphine hands, diamond cut markers, sunburst blue dial - it catches every bit of light and strikes it right back at you! it will cause permanent eye damage! Saying that, the DJ Blue dial fluted+oyster or smooth+jubilee is also awesome.


----------



## Black5

BarracksSi said:


> Ah, ok. I thought it might've been one of these...


LOL.
Watchfinder wouldn't be a GS AD would they?

No hint of any bias there at all...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


So many watches, So little time...


----------



## BrianBinFL

I love that photo series. The beauty of it is that even the uninitiated can immediately appreciate the stark difference in quality.


----------



## BrianBinFL

Black5 said:


> LOL.
> Watchfinder wouldn't be a GS AD would they?
> 
> No hint of any bias there at all...


I don't find any information to suggest that they are an authorized dealer for _any_ brand, Grand Seiko or otherwise. Their specialty is used watches, not new. That said, they are apparently a certified service center for the following brands: Omega, Cartier, Audemars Piguet, Officine Panerai, IWC Schaffhausen, and Jaeger LeCoultre. No Grand Seiko there either.

That of course doesn't mean they aren't biased toward Grand Seiko. It's rather natural to be biased in favor of things that are better than other similar things.


----------



## BarracksSi

Black5 said:


> LOL.
> Watchfinder wouldn't be a GS AD would they?
> 
> No hint of any bias there at all...


;-)

Yeah, they were just the most frequent hits on Youtube when I searched for Grand Seiko, and their videos don't suck.

My favorite so far photography-wise is Bruce Williams's (the first link) because of the variety of situations that he shoots.


----------



## BarracksSi

Black5 said:


> LOL.
> Watchfinder wouldn't be a GS AD would they?
> 
> No hint of any bias there at all...


;-)

Yeah, they were just the most frequent hits on Youtube when I searched for Grand Seiko, and their videos don't suck.

My favorite so far photography-wise is Bruce Williams's (the first link) because of the variety of situations that he shoots.


----------



## TCWU

DJ's hand set is white gold...I like that..even the finished is not like GS's
gold vs steel....I like gold better ...but I still go for GS from now on...specially with good discount ones


----------



## phillyforager

Jostack said:


> Not everyone is hypnotized by Rolex marketing.


Agreed to that - what percent of what you pay gets directly funneled back into the rolex marketing budget?


----------



## koolpep

phillyforager said:


> Agreed to that - what percent of what you pay gets directly funneled back into the rolex marketing budget?


I think it's about 20% of Rolex' revenue. But since Rolex revenue is MSRP minus 40% (roughly) Dealer margin, I would say about 12% if you bought from an AD.

While conventional wisdom floats any numbers for the right amount of marketing spending- the average of bigger listed companies is around 7.5% not sure what the average for companies in the luxury market but I guess it's a bit more. So while Rolex spends a LOT on marketing compared to their competitors, it also has a LOT of revenue and a way more long term brand outlook as they do not report to shareholders. The HWF probably makes more profit from their real estate holdings and investments from the profits made historically than from watch sales, so they can afford to get all that expensive marketing to foster and nurture their existing and future demand....


----------



## Black5

BrianBinFL said:


> I don't find any information to suggest that they are an authorized dealer for _any_ brand, Grand Seiko or otherwise. Their specialty is used watches, not new. That said, they are apparently a certified service center for the following brands: Omega, Cartier, Audemars Piguet, Officine Panerai, IWC Schaffhausen, and Jaeger LeCoultre. No Grand Seiko there either.
> 
> That of course doesn't mean they aren't biased toward Grand Seiko. It's rather natural to be biased in favor of things that are better than other similar things.


Thanks for clarifying.

I checked out their website, and it seems they have an awful lot of Rolex in stock.
Clearly this is where their volume is.
Makes sense to try to drive interest wider into other brands and diversify their risk...


----------



## Mr.Jones82

aalin13 said:


> WiZARD7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just one picture, that says everything.
> 
> View attachment 14780655
> 
> 
> 
> That is a great photo for showing the difference. It seems to me that Omega is at the bottom in terms of finishing here.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Hahaha poor Omega. How do you get GS and Rolex owners to stop fighting? Toss them a couple of bats and dangle an Omega in front of them. No better way to make friends than to share a common enemy.


----------



## jimf

you get a much better quality watch for the money and hand finishing.


----------



## zengineer

I like Rolex and own them as well as Grand Seiko. Each do certain things very well and if you don't at least understand the appeal of Grand Seiko I question your objectivity. Between the DJ and a similar Grand Seiko I would lean toward Grand Seiko. I can't imagine a more awkward solution to date legibility than the crystal cyclops.


----------



## wajeremiad

get both. one so you can appreciate the crafstmanship the other so people can fawn over how successful you must be.


----------



## Black5

koolpep said:


> I think it's about 20% of Rolex' revenue. But since Rolex revenue is MSRP minus 40% (roughly) Dealer margin, I would say about 12% if you bought from an AD.
> 
> While conventional wisdom floats any numbers for the right amount of marketing spending- the average of bigger listed companies is around 7.5% not sure what the average for companies in the luxury market but I guess it's a bit more. So while Rolex spends a LOT on marketing compared to their competitors, it also has a LOT of revenue and a way more long term brand outlook as they do not report to shareholders. The HWF probably makes more profit from their real estate holdings and investments from the profits made historically than from watch sales, so they can afford to get all that expensive marketing to foster and nurture their existing and future demand....


Expending 20% of total revenue on marketing seems to be extraordinarily high for this sector?

LVMH typically spends around 12%, and is seen to be one of the biggest spenders in the luxury market.

It's always going to be impossible to gauge accurately since Rolex don't publicly release their numbers, but plenty of industry analysts have tried to estimate anyway.

I have seen indicative figures suggesting Rolex spends around $60m on media annually in the US alone.

Estimating that the US is approximately 25% of their total market, would put their annual spend at around $250M.

Based on revenues of over $5 Billion, (Also a guess), that would put their annual marketing spend at around 5%.

The reality is probably somewhere between 5 - 10%, which is in line with most large corporations in this industry sector...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


SOoO many watches, SOoO little time...


----------



## koolpep

Black5 said:


> Expending 20% of total revenue on marketing seems to be extraordinarily high for this sector?
> 
> LVMH typically spends around 12%, and is seen to be one of the biggest spenders in the luxury market.
> 
> It's always going to be impossible to gauge accurately since Rolex don't publicly release their numbers, but plenty of industry analysts have tried to estimate anyway.
> 
> I have seen indicative figures suggesting Rolex spends around $60m on media annually in the US alone.
> 
> Estimating that the US is approximately 25% of their total market, would put their annual spend at around $250M.
> 
> Based on revenues of over $5 Billion, (Also a guess), that would put their annual marketing spend at around 5%.
> 
> The reality is probably somewhere between 5 - 10%, which is in line with most large corporations in this industry sector...
> 
> SOoO many watches, SOoO little time...


Yeah, it's really speculation. However we can conclude they do spend certainly on the higher end of what other companies spend. But it's not completely outrageous.


----------



## GFSEA86

WiZARD7 said:


> Just one picture, that says everything.
> 
> View attachment 14780655


Man, the Omega and Rolex handset looks like they were cut with an angle grinder! Meanwhile the GS is perfect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BrianBinFL

GFSEA86 said:


> Man, the Omega and Rolex handset looks like they were cut with an angle grinder! Meanwhile the GS is perfect.


What is amusing to me is that the handsets are one of the few things Rolex doesn't make in house - instead relying upon an outside supplier for them. You would think if you were going to outsource something like that you'd have higher standards for the product that the supplier delivers to you.

That said, I'm sure their external supplier would finish them to whatever level Rolex wanted - with the price rising commensurately. So, as with everything, I guess Rolex gets what they pay for.


----------



## BarracksSi

GFSEA86 said:


> Man, the Omega and Rolex handset looks like they were cut with an angle grinder! Meanwhile the GS is perfect.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's my favorite thing about GS's dials and hands - they look like renders, they're done so well. They're the only watches I've handled that looked better as I peered closer at them.


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## qcjulle

I had a 16014 Datejust, didn't bond with it mainly because of the white gold bezel and tinny bracelet. Just got a replacement today.


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## phillyforager

Because grand seikos are better watches.


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## bluedialer

It's simple, but it depends on the individual.

-more hand crafting
-more interesting dials and cases, finished superiorly to the micro level
-spring drive and hi-beat (and some also do prefer quartz)
-to use something more unique
-many people feel some at least small specific degree of admiration for Japan and its culture
(if you're someone who simply doesn't have any degree of that, then I reckon you'll tend not to care for Seiko or GS)
-some people don't feel much or any specific degree of admiration for Rolex

So it's really dependent on individual leanings, no necessary insult either way.
A Datejust will have its own advantages as well, but these are just reasons why a GS may get the edge for some people. 
And I'm assuming acquisition at relatively the same price point as well.


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## DVR

bluedialer said:


> -more hand crafting
> -more interesting dials and cases, finished superiorly to the micro level
> -spring drive and hi-beat (and some also do prefer quartz)
> -to use something more unique
> -many people feel some at least small specific degree of admiration for Japan and its culture
> (if you're someone who simply doesn't have any degree of that, then I reckon you'll tend not to care for Seiko or GS)
> -some people don't feel much or any specific degree of admiration for Rolex


- Yes 
- Yes, in a big way , this is a very important part of the expierence for me.
- Yes, SD and its sweet, sweeping second hand is magical and makes it very difficult to settle for anything less. 
- No, if GS would produce x10 and everybody and his dog would own one I would still would want and wear GS SD watches.
Before Rolex was 'my brand' , owned over a dozen and couldn't care less that I saw them almost daily on other people. 
- No, it's all about the watch. Know very little about Japan and its culture. I know they kill whales and the world disapproves, and 
that makes the news every year or so. 
The Swiss sell chocolate, have mountains and is a ski country. It's about the watches for me. Not where they are made. 
- I admire Rolex, they have done a lot of things right, still own 2. If they would have something like SD and better readability (no 
cyclops and anti- reflective coating) I would have more. But at my age they are really very hard to read at a glance. A GS is such a 
pleasure to read.


----------



## bluedialer

DVR said:


> - Yes
> - Yes, in a big way , this is a very important part of the expierence for me.
> - Yes, SD and its sweet, sweeping second hand is magical and makes it very difficult to settle for anything less.
> - No, if GS would produce x10 and everybody and his dog would own one I would still would want and wear GS SD watches.
> Before Rolex was 'my brand' , owned over a dozen and couldn't care less that I saw them almost daily on other people.
> - No, it's all about the watch. Know very little about Japan and its culture. I know they kill whales and the world disapproves, and
> that makes the news every year or so.
> The Swiss sell chocolate, have mountains and is a ski country. It's about the watches for me. Not where they are made.
> - I admire Rolex, they have done a lot of things right, still own 2. If they would have something like SD and better readability (no
> cyclops and anti- reflective coating) I would have more. But at my age they are really very hard to read at a glance. A GS is such a
> pleasure to read.


Yup. Of course, I didn't intend to say all those reasons apply to all who prefer GS. Those are just the various prominent reasons I've noticed.


----------



## slow_mo

Too much text and too few photos.

Don't think you can find such a dial on the Rolex.


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## kamonjj

Rolex does make nice dials too ...










Pic borrowed from the internet


----------



## Newnice

For one thing, Seiko offers what is arguably the best quartz movement in a wristwatch. Rolex has chosen not to offer any quartz movements, so for that market segment they are not an option.

For another, Seiko has the image of a friendly, accessible brand who has a product for everyone, poor or rich, young or old. The Rolex image is ... different from that.

Also, Seiko is a quintessentially Japanese brand, with the association of Japanese culture, quality, and craftsmanship.
Rolex is a quintessentially Swiss brand, with the association of Swiss culture, quality, and craftsmanship.

Both cultures are fascinating and important, and both are unique. But some people admire Japanese culture more than Swiss, and they would prefer Grand Seiko over Rolex.

Finally, price. Grand Seikos start at half the price of a Rolex. So if you "only" have $3000 to spend you don't get a Rolex, but you can get a Grand Seiko.


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## Tonhao

BrianBinFL said:


> What is amusing to me is that the handsets are one of the few things Rolex doesn't make in house - instead relying upon an outside supplier for them. You would think if you were going to outsource something like that you'd have higher standards for the product that the supplier delivers to you.


You'd think the company that makes its own gold, hairspring alloy, ceramic bezel, and lume would have figured out how to make handsets by now. Strange.

I know my DJ's handset isn't razor sharp, but I don't know if it gets better on, say, a Day-Date.


----------



## brandonskinner

This is why.








Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## BarracksSi

Tonhao said:


> You'd think the company that makes its own gold, hairspring alloy, ceramic bezel, and lume would have figured out how to make handsets by now. Strange.
> 
> I know my DJ's handset isn't razor sharp, but I don't know if it gets better on, say, a Day-Date.


They just haven't bought the handset factory (like they did for the rest of the parts).


----------



## Sam K

A week ago I asked myself the same question, though you could replace "Rolex" with any high end Swiss brand. Why pick the nice looking but rather generic GS watches over a UN, a IWC or a Hublot? Swiss watchmaking is the gold standard, and while Japanese craftmanship has a long and proud history, today I mostly associate it with very efficient mass production (Toyota) and not-worth-repairing consumer electronics (Sony). The high end automatic GS cost more than many high end Swiss automatic watches, and I just couldn't see how to justify that for something that shares it's brand name with cheap consumer quartz watches. 

Until I actually went to see one in person. 

The product shots do not do the GS details justice. I think some of the pictures here come closer. But honestly, if you love watches and you love beauty and craftmanship it is hard NOT to love the GS. The way some of those dials catch the light...

The brand name will never carry the weight that Rolex does, and the designs aren't as spectacular as some of the offerings from Hublot. 

And I think that's part of the charm. 

Rolex will always be a "LUXURY watch", even if it's in all steel. Even the most expensive GS is a "luxury WATCH". Both are valid approaches. I'm probably more of a luxury guy. I have a reputation as a d-bag to think of, and I don't think a GS would enhance that. But I won't question anyone who put their money on Japanese craftmanship. 

Hat off to you, Grand Seiko, you won this one!


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## Madstacks

Everyone says how great GS finishing is, and for the actual watch it certainly seems to be, but the end links on the bracelets can be shocking.

https://i.imgur.com/soV8joG.jpg


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## Madstacks

Everyone says how great GS finishing is, and for the actual watch it certainly seems to be, but the end links on the bracelets can be shocking. (source Imgur) Is this just a defect one? even my sub £1000 Hamilton has a far better fit than that..


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## blowlamp

Madstacks said:


> Everyone says how great GS finishing is, and for the actual watch it certainly seems to be, but the end links on the bracelets can be shocking. (source Imgur) Is this just a defect one? even my sub £1000 Hamilton has a far better fit than that..
> View attachment 14820103


No, that's not at all normal for a GS.

Looking at how the end link seems to be displaced, I'd be checking to see that the proper diameter spring bar has been fitted, or refitted, if the owner has been playing about with straps.


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## Madstacks

Thanks, I wonder if the end link/bracelet is even correct..it is just not wide enough to have a nice flush fit..


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## John Price

I have 2 Grand Seikos and neither my Snowflake nor my SBGH267 have gaps like that. The endlinks fit flush on mine. Also, having handled several GSs at our dealer I've never seen one like that in your photo. Almost looks like the wrong bracelet has been fitted.



Madstacks said:


> Everyone says how great GS finishing is, and for the actual watch it certainly seems to be, but the end links on the bracelets can be shocking. (source Imgur) Is this just a defect one? even my sub £1000 Hamilton has a far better fit than that..
> View attachment 14820103


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## BrianBinFL

Wow, that's crazy. Something is definitely wrong there. I have two Grand Seiko watches with the 5-link bracelet and while the SEL interface may not be as snug as the Submariner is, it sure as heck doesn't look like that. I'd love to know the story behind that one.


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## rschmidt97

VintageTimepiece said:


> Can someone please explain to me the allure? I'm not getting it... o|


Because Grand Seiko sells a great $8,000.00 dollar watch for $4,000.00 and Rolex sells a great $4,000.00 watch for $8,000.00.

It's just simple math really.


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## Madstacks

BrianBinFL said:


> Wow, that's crazy. Something is definitely wrong there. I have two Grand Seiko watches with the 5-link bracelet and while the SEL interface may not be as snug as the Submariner is, it sure as heck doesn't look like that. I'd love to know the story behind that one.


The person has just bought it, full post here, they are very happy with their watch and i dont want to pee on their bonfire. But it just does not seem right -

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/ev0eni


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## BrianBinFL

Madstacks said:


> The person has just bought it, full post here, they are very happy with their watch and i dont want to pee on their bonfire. But it just does not seem right -
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/ev0eni


Almost feels like someone should tell him because that's insane and he really should get it fixed. That said, and not attempting to excuse Grand Seiko at all, if he bought it in person at an AD then he should have been more observant.


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## BrianBinFL

Dup.


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## Madstacks

I didn't spot this one (the person who's photo i shared did) but it is being talked about in the comment section so hopefully they read and can make a decision.

If they actually bought it like that from the AD then I feel its the AD that is at fault for letting it go out like that, it should have either been rejected back to Seiko or if bought pre owned im sure the AD paid less when buying it. Buyer didnt mention price paid but after seeing that I could not unsee it. and on a watch of this price point it would drive me mad to the point of returning/selling.

My £80 Casio edifice has a better fit so something is very wrong.


----------



## awizon

I saw this thread and wanted to add my opinion since I just made this decision. I bought an SBGA415. For reference I do own a Rolex and I really love the watch. It wears great and it feels really well made. I think the DJ is the same deal. It a classic design. I didn't see the GS before I bought it, in fact I've never seen any GS watch prior to buying the 415. I did do a lot of research and was really curious about the movement. I think a lot of people are mechanical 'purists' and are put off by the electromechanical spring drive, but IMO its just another technology and I thought having a super-accurate mechanical watch would be great. Its been one week since I bought it. It is second-accurate. It has not lost/gained a single second. Given what I've read about it I have the feeling they under-market the accuracy because they don't want people saying its a quartz watch. 

As many people say about the brand, the dials are beautiful and the finishing is (again IMO) superlative. I can't see how this is any less quality than a Rolex DJ. Some people have said the titanium band feels cheap. I disagree. Its naturally lighter so it won't have the heft of a jubilee or oyster bracelet on a Rolex. I have other titanium watches (chronos) and none of them have the polished titanium finish - another nice touch. The 415 date changes at midnight. No surprise there. The watch is very comfortable. The second hand is one of my favorite features. I'm wondering how long the power reserve really is since the accuracy is so much better than what I had read. The stick markers reflect light like crazy, btw.


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## HiggsBoson

simonp67 said:


> Doesnt that suggest that the Rolex is more desirable and more in demand than GS then? People are buying GS as a second choice because their first choice isnt currently available?


No.
I just means that Rolex are intentionally limiting supply. There you go, how easy was that.
Oh, and this comes from a Rolex & Grand Seiko owner.


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## GMT-man

HiggsBoson said:


> No.
> I just means that Rolex are intentionally limiting supply.


And the reason they do it is because people at Rolex just love and admire high quality watches and superb finishing. So they want people to buy Grand Seikos instead of mass produced Rolex watches, and they are succeeding admirably.


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## BarracksSi

HiggsBoson said:


> No.
> I just means that Rolex are intentionally limiting supply. There you go, how easy was that.
> Oh, and this comes from a Rolex & Grand Seiko owner.


By all estimates, Rolex is making just as many watches as they have before. They're simply selling more of them where you don't live.

When Hong Kong and Taiwan collapse, then a few months later, we'll see the watches normally allocated for them to show up here in the West.


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## aalin13

BarracksSi said:


> By all estimates, Rolex is making just as many watches as they have before. They're simply selling more of them where you don't live.
> 
> When Hong Kong and Taiwan collapse, then a few months later, we'll see the watches normally allocated for them to show up here in the West.


You are right that Rolex is already making lots of watches, I think the issue is more the distribution of their line up. They are not making as many SS Sports watch as the market demands, I still see plenty of gold and diamond models in Rolex AD.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


----------



## TellingTime

I started a thread about the terrible Rolex shopping experience over on the Rolex forum and the mods shut it down. (pretty sensitive group) But when you go into 4 supposedly top-notch Rolex ADs and none of them have a men's SS model in stock for you to try on...that's a terrible shopping experience. Some mentioned it's been that way for years. 

Supply and demand seems like a popular excuse. Nope. You just raise the MSRP. You don't go without stock in your stores.


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## BrianBinFL

TellingTime said:


> Supply and demand seems like a popular excuse. Nope. You just raise the MSRP. You don't go without stock in your stores.


I'm sure Rolex has their reasons for not increasing the price, but I'm with you. Simple economics. If the demand curve shifts to the right but price and supply remain the same then there will be shortages - quantity demanded will exceed quantity supplied. But if the price is raised to the new equilibrium price then everybody who wants one and is willing to pay the equilibrium price will be able to buy one.


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## GMT-man

BrianBinFL said:


> But if the price is raised to the new equilibrium price then everybody who wants one and is willing to pay the equilibrium price will be able to buy one.


But that is happening already: it is possible to buy every SS sports Rolex brand new from the gray dealers. It is just somebody else than Rolex or AD who is getting the added profit (AD might get some).

For some reason many people would pay double the present day MSRP to Rolex AD if Rolex was to raise prices (fair price?), but refuse to pay the same amount of money (ugly profiting?) to a gray dealer now, out of principle. The end result would be the same anyway: pay the money, get the watch.

Those who complain about the situation must be some kind of commies who think they have a some sort of right to get a Rolex at MSRP right away. Capitalism does not work that way.

=


----------



## kamonjj

BarracksSi said:


> By all estimates, Rolex is making just as many watches as they have before. They're simply selling more of them where you don't live.


Correct! My AD has been clear that they received more Rolex watches than ever in 2019 and also sold more than ever with longer waiting lists than ever. They were honest and said they receive about 4 subs a month and have over 30 people waiting at any given time. With those numbers most will wait almost a year for just a sub.

Another AD told me they received more Daytona's than pepsi GMTs last year and had people passing on the Daytona. It took them a few calls to get them sold.

More people are buying Rolex than anything else by a wide margin. The watch cases for all other brands are full and are easy to come by. Customers are walking right by the other brands right to the Rolex case. Period.

Not to mention swiss watch exports have declined substantially in 2019. Other brands aside from Rolex are hurting.


----------



## BarracksSi

aalin13 said:


> You are right that Rolex is already making lots of watches, I think the issue is more the distribution of their line up. They are not making as many SS Sports watch as the market demands, *I still see plenty of gold and diamond models in Rolex AD.*
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Judging by the stock sitting in display cases isn't going to be accurate, especially when the popular models get sold as soon as they get shipped to the store. Over and over on WUS, we hear two basic scenarios around purchasing SS sport Rolexes. One, the buyer gets the call from his AD after being on a waiting list; or two, the buyer happens to be at the store as fresh stock is being set out.

(my favorite story of #2 is the guy who was on the construction crew of a new shopping mall and went to the brand-new Rolex AD on opening day; he scored the only ExpI they had, and said that the rest of the SS sport models got sold by mid-afternoon)


----------



## aalin13

BarracksSi said:


> Judging by the stock sitting in display cases isn't going to be accurate, especially when the popular models get sold as soon as they get shipped to the store. Over and over on WUS, we hear two basic scenarios around purchasing SS sport Rolexes. One, the buyer gets the call from his AD after being on a waiting list; or two, the buyer happens to be at the store as fresh stock is being set out.
> 
> (my favorite story of #2 is the guy who was on the construction crew of a new shopping mall and went to the brand-new Rolex AD on opening day; he scored the only ExpI they had, and said that the rest of the SS sport models got sold by mid-afternoon)


My point is more that their product mix is not currently aligned to the market demand, as SS sports Rolexes are hard to get, but precious metal ones are readily available. We are talking about a company that makes close to a million watches a year, so in theory if they are to change their production line mix, they can probably satisfy the market demand. They have no real incentives to do that though, as pushing more customers to purchase precious metal models and driving up the average selling price is surely part of their long term strategy.


----------



## ilitig8

BrianBinFL said:


> Wow, that's crazy. Something is definitely wrong there. I have two Grand Seiko watches with the 5-link bracelet and while the SEL interface may not be as snug as the Submariner is, it sure as heck doesn't look like that. I'd love to know the story behind that one.


I agree it looks unusually large but I would have to see it in person to judge.

I don't think there is any question that 6 digit Rolex watches have the tightest tolerances for endlink to case fit. They certainly beat GS and every other watch with spring bars. That said I think with GS it is actually an engineering decision. Anyone that has removed and replaced a bracelet on a 6 digit Rolex knows it can be a PITA and you better have spring bar tweezers or pliers or forget it, this is not a job for a Bergeon 6767 unless you have 2 of them and three hands. This GS and pretty much every other watch using spring bars has the amount of horizontal play to effectively remove and replace it with just a quality spring bar tool or even a jewelers screwdriver if you are that guy. So if you want to go from bracelet to strap you can with little issue. Rolex, however, doesn't want you to change their watches. Omega, for example, is happy to sell you rubber straps, leather straps, bracelets and deployants ala carte no matter how your watch was configured from the factory.

Outside of the brand Rolex still makes arguably the best mechanical sports watches in the world and much of it is down to the movement. While not finished in a way that would ever evoke the word finissage they are better finished than most people give them credit for, even if it is a mainly utilitarian finish. The Rolex movements are simply the best-engineered work-horse movements in the world. The architecture stays the same and they slowly and consistently improve them. The quality is such that they can continue to increase the warranty period which at the same time increase the recommended service interval and increase the warranted accuracy to be one of the three best along with Omega METAS and PP Patek Seal.

GS certainly has an advantage in finishing. Particularly with the case and the dial furniture. Rolex and GS are similar watches that are remarkably different at the same time. I own a Rolex in almost every professional line but have never owned or wanted one in the classic line except for a Cellini. If I wanted something like a DJ then it is very possible I would end up with a GS instead.

Grand Seiko and Rolex both make excellent watches, if you can't acknowledge that then you are letting bias show (which we all have). The neat thing about watches is there is something for everyone and though we may argue and disagree we are still the odd ones out in that we appreciate and will pay for watches far more expensive than an Apple watch but yet somehow still trumpet their value.


----------



## ilitig8

aalin13 said:


> My point is more that their product mix is not currently aligned to the market demand, as SS sports Rolexes are hard to get, but precious metal ones are readily available. We are talking about a company that makes close to a million watches a year, so in theory if they are to change their production line mix, they can probably satisfy the market demand. They have no real incentives to do that though, as pushing more customers to purchase precious metal models and driving up the average selling price is surely part of their long term strategy.


Switching their PM case production lines to 904L is not inconsequential. Companies like Rolex and Patek tend to think of profit in terms of decades, not quarters. Demand for their current hot models will ebb, just like it did with the Daytona in the 90s. The world economy will retract and expand, Rolex is in the enviable position to not have to chase the boom times to weather the bust times. They aren't fast-fashion they are the trendsetter everyone chases. There is a huge industry built up to just ride their coattails. The FOMO that many other brands try to accomplish with LEs (GS is not immune here) Rolex accomplishes by building and selling updated models they have been selling for decades. It is nice as a Rolex owner to know Rolex is out there everyday building value for my watches. Something GS is doing for their owners in the US currently with their bigger push into the US market.


----------



## HiggsBoson

BarracksSi said:


> *By all estimates, Rolex is making just as many watches as they have before. They're simply selling more of them where you don't live.*
> 
> When Hong Kong and Taiwan collapse, then a few months later, we'll see the watches normally allocated for them to show up here in the West.


Exactly, so they are limiting supply to where I live and sending the elsewhere.


----------



## BarracksSi

HiggsBoson said:


> Exactly, so they are limiting supply to where I live and sending the elsewhere.


Solution: move.


----------



## HiggsBoson

BarracksSi said:


> Solution: move.


Yeah, great solution. Well thought out.
Move to a different part of the world, just to increase (hopefully) my chances of buying a watch.


----------



## BarracksSi

HiggsBoson said:


> Yeah, great solution. Well thought out.
> Move to a different part of the world, just to increase (hopefully) my chances of buying a watch.


Well, if you're not gonna do that, then you have no right to complain. The fix is available, but you choose to not do it.


----------



## Johann23

I’ve got several Rolex’s mostly PM these days, but I’ve had many SS Rolex. 

Sometimes I just get sick of seeing everyone and their brother with a Black SS Sub Ceramic or a Datejust. I used to have a black sub and sold it after seeing like ten of them in an airport.

GS is just refreshing. They’re interesting, not gimmicky, super high quality. My GS gets more wrist time these days than a lot of my Rolex.


----------



## HiggsBoson

BarracksSi said:


> Well, if you're not gonna do that, then you have no right to complain. The fix is available, but you choose to not do it.


Seriously, you really think that if people aren't prepared to MOVE HOME in order to be able to purchase a watch, they have no right to complain about availability?
Probably one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard on this forum. 
It beggars belief that you would even make that statement. 
Move home if you want to buy a difficult to get Rolex. Jeez.....


----------



## Mr.Jones82

HiggsBoson said:


> Seriously, you really think that if people aren't prepared to MOVE HOME in order to be able to purchase a watch, they have no right to complain about availability?
> Probably one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever heard on this forum.
> It beggars belief that you would even make that statement.
> Move home if you want to buy a difficult to get Rolex. Jeez.....


I think you're taking it a bit too literally. To put it another way, does Rolex have a responsibility to provide watches to the Western market if the demand is significantly higher elsewhere?


----------



## TellingTime

Some people got some wild imaginations. Should change the thread title to... Why beg for a Rolex when you can buy a GS?


----------



## Jostack

Ultimately it comes down to price. Complaining about availability ignores the fact that Rolex watches of nearly all flavors can be had for a price. You may not feel it is worth it, and I respect that, and agree. But if there were no buyers at current price points, this would be a different discussion.


----------



## HiggsBoson

Mr.Jones82 said:


> I think you're taking it a bit too literally. To put it another way, does Rolex have a responsibility to provide watches to the Western market if the demand is significantly higher elsewhere?


I'm not taking it too literally. I'm replying to *exactly* what he said. Don't say, 'move house, to an area that's has the Rolex in stock', if that's NOT what you mean. 
I can only reply to what people actually say.


----------



## BarracksSi

Mr.Jones82 said:


> I think you're taking it a bit too literally. To put it another way, does Rolex have a responsibility to provide watches to the Western market if the demand is significantly higher elsewhere?


Exactly -- and, hell no, they have _zero_ obligation to sell where we Westerners think they should sell. No customer is entitled to have everything available at the simple drop of a wallet.


----------



## koolpep

kamonjj said:


> .....
> Not to mention swiss watch exports have declined substantially in 2019. Other brands aside from Rolex are hurting.


Any sources for that? Everything I read is an increase revenue wise for 2019. However a decrease in volume. That's because the sub $1k watches are suffering like mad. But the more expensive watches are increasing....


----------



## ilitig8

HiggsBoson said:


> I'm not taking it too literally. I'm replying to *exactly* what he said. Don't say, 'move house, to an area that's has the Rolex in stock', if that's NOT what you mean.
> I can only reply to what people actually say.


People use hyperbole all the time, it can be a useful tool if the audience can read subtext.

One option one could glean from this is buying an airline ticket. Head out for a location that has significant stock, buy what you like plus some and use arbitrage to pay for your vacation.


----------



## Johann23

TellingTime said:


> Some people got some wild imaginations. Should change the thread title to... Why beg for a Rolex when you can buy a GS?


Lol. Right on.

I'm a huge Rolex guy. BUT, you won't see me stroking dealers and making relationships by hyping watches I do t want just so I may get the opportunity to get the one I really want, and then have them take my $20,000 to be treated like I do t deserve it? Nah. I'm lucky to have gotten some seriously cool Rolex pieces before this nutso garbage.

In the meantime I'll enjoy some Grand Seiko or other interesting watches. And walk-in and walk out of the store with them!


----------



## Mr.Jones82

HiggsBoson said:


> I'm not taking it too literally. I'm replying to *exactly* what he said. Don't say, 'move house, to an area that's has the Rolex in stock', if that's NOT what you mean.
> I can only reply to what people actually say.


Apologies, I'm not trying to be facetious, but the question was asked in sincerity on my part. I see this pop up constantly and I generally just keep my mouth shut, but you've been around for quite a while, so I was genuinely curious about your response. I'm an American who lives in Korea and over here it is common knowledge that Rolex has become a luxury good and people also recognize that the shortage has to do with increased demand in China...but on the forum a whole different narrative has popped up. No one was complaining when Rolex's focus was the West...but now, the narrative has reached hyperbolic tones and suddenly we have Hans Wilsdorf on the grassy knoll and Rolex rubbing shoulders with the Illuminati. Hahaha.


----------



## mleok

ilitig8 said:


> People use hyperbole all the time, it can be a useful tool if the audience can read subtext.
> 
> One option one could glean from this is buying an airline ticket. Head out for a location that has significant stock, buy what you like plus some and use arbitrage to pay for your vacation.


It wasn't a Rolex, but I saved 30% on the US retail price + tax on my Tudor Black Bay GMT by purchasing it in the UK.


----------



## HiggsBoson

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Apologies, I'm not trying to be facetious, but the question was asked in sincerity on my part. I see this pop up constantly and I generally just keep my mouth shut, but you've been around for quite a while, so I was genuinely curious about your response. I'm an American who lives in Korea and over here it is common knowledge that Rolex has become a luxury good and people also recognize that the shortage has to do with increased demand in China...but on the forum a whole different narrative has popped up. No one was complaining when Rolex's focus was the West...but now, the narrative has reached hyperbolic tones and suddenly we have Hans Wilsdorf on the grassy knoll and Rolex rubbing shoulders with the Illuminati. Hahaha.


From my perspective, it's quite simple. I react, comment & respond to what people actually 'say' here.
If they mean something completely different, from what they 'say', then they need to take more time/care/consideration in what they decide to post.
I'd suggest people 'own what they say', if they can't, then don't post.
Accusing me of taking something too literally is a 'cop-out' for them not being able to communicate their point clearly and concisely. 
By the way, no need for an apology from yourself. ;-)


----------



## Mr.Jones82

HiggsBoson said:


> Mr.Jones82 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Apologies, I'm not trying to be facetious, but the question was asked in sincerity on my part. I see this pop up constantly and I generally just keep my mouth shut, but you've been around for quite a while, so I was genuinely curious about your response. I'm an American who lives in Korea and over here it is common knowledge that Rolex has become a luxury good and people also recognize that the shortage has to do with increased demand in China...but on the forum a whole different narrative has popped up. No one was complaining when Rolex's focus was the West...but now, the narrative has reached hyperbolic tones and suddenly we have Hans Wilsdorf on the grassy knoll and Rolex rubbing shoulders with the Illuminati. Hahaha.
> 
> 
> 
> From my perspective, it's quite simple. I react, comment & respond to what people actually 'say' here.
> If they mean something completely different, from what they 'say', then they need to take more time/care/consideration in what they decide to post.
> I'd suggest people 'own what they say', if they can't, then don't post.
> Accusing me of taking something too literally is a 'cop-out' for them not being able to communicate their point clearly and concisely.
> By the way, no need for an apology from yourself.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. No worries. ?


----------



## kamonjj

koolpep said:


> Any sources for that? Everything I read is an increase revenue wise for 2019. However a decrease in volume. That's because the sub $1k watches are suffering like mad. But the more expensive watches are increasing....


I read about it on bloomberg. Basically the industry had the slowest growth since 1984. I agree with the lower priced models are getting hit the worst given they are in direct competition with the smart watch alternatives. From what I've read most of swatch groups profits come from the lower priced models. So we shall see how this all unfolds. Maybe their 13k speedy will help shoulder the burden haha


----------



## kamonjj

koolpep said:


> Any sources for that? Everything I read is an increase revenue wise for 2019. However a decrease in volume. That's because the sub $1k watches are suffering like mad. But the more expensive watches are increasing....


Damn double post


----------



## koolpep

kamonjj said:


> I read about it on bloomberg. Basically the industry had the slowest growth since 1984. I agree with the lower priced models are getting hit the worst given they are in direct competition with the smart watch alternatives. From what I've read most of swatch groups profits come from the lower priced models. So we shall see how this all unfolds. Maybe their 13k speedy will help shoulder the burden haha


There is quite a difference between a decline in growth (but still growing at a lower rate) and a decline.

So it's the same I read. Growing revenues with declining volume. Meaning the average price per watch is up substantially.... but lower priced watches are not selling that much anymore.


----------



## kamonjj

koolpep said:


> There is quite a difference between a decline in growth (but still growing at a lower rate) and a decline.
> 
> So it's the same I read. Growing revenues with declining volume. Meaning the average price per watch is up substantially.... but lower priced watches are not selling that much anymore.


I'm quite aware of the difference. You may want to take a look at those revenue numbers again. At least for swatch group, on their mid year report they were down in revenue and margins compared to the prior year. They stated they expected a strong finish to the year, so we shall see if that came to fruition. I'm guessing not.


----------



## Marine73

I actually prefer the Rolex with a white dial and the jubilee bracelet.


----------



## koolpep

kamonjj said:


> I'm quite aware of the difference. You may want to take a look at those revenue numbers again. At least for swatch group, on their mid year report they were down in revenue and margins compared to the prior year. They stated they expected a strong finish to the year, so we shall see if that came to fruition. I'm guessing not.


Yeah I did. Naturally companies with a high exposure to lower priced watches are more affected. I totally can see storm brewing over the Swiss watch industry - especially the companies operating in the lower price ranges. No wonder Seiko tries their best to move quickly upmarket too.


----------



## joaot

I also have both Rolex and GS, so one can definitely have and enjoy both. Quality wise the Rolex bracelet is better than the GS. Otherwise the GS case, dial, hands, indices look a lot better than the Rolex, But a Rolex is always a good investment because they not only hold their value as many models increase price over time. Maybe because many people share the same opinion as the original poster....


----------



## T1meout

koolpep said:


> Yeah I did. Naturally companies with a high exposure to lower priced watches are more affected. I totally can see storm brewing over the Swiss watch industry - especially the companies operating in the lower price ranges. No wonder Seiko tries their best to move quickly upmarket too.


I predicted back when smart watches were introduced, that to ensure long term survival, watch brands would have to move upmarket. It's do or die.


----------



## koolpep

T1meout said:


> I predicted back when smart watches were introduced, that to ensure long term survival, watch brands would have to move upmarket. It's do or die.


Yes I agree. But looking at the Swiss watch industry as a whole - they still made more revenue in 2019 than in 2018. But as have already established - cracks are showing. It's basically all the high end watches raking in the money while the lower end Swiss watches are suffering.

Moving upmarket as a budget oriented brand though is way harder than moving downmarket for a luxury brand.

It's going to be interesting times.


----------



## kamonjj

I chose the datejust and I couldn't be happier


----------



## ImolaRed

I can buy a used snowflake spring drive for around $4k. 

That’s your answer. 

What datejust can I get that is anywhere near the quality for $4k?

Done 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Jones82

ImolaRed said:


> I can buy a used snowflake spring drive for around $4k.
> 
> That's your answer.
> 
> What datejust can I get that is anywhere near the quality for $4k?
> 
> Done
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's the strongest selling point. It is pretty hard to argue with what you get at the entry level in particular. At 3-4K and below, I don't feel anything touches GS.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

kamonjj said:


> I chose the datejust and I couldn't be happier


Beautiful. Congrats!


----------



## kamonjj

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Beautiful. Congrats!


Thanks!


----------



## Tonhao

Mr.Jones82 said:


> I'm an American who lives in Korea and over here it is common knowledge that Rolex has become a luxury good and people also recognize that the shortage has to do with increased demand in China...but on the forum a whole different narrative has popped up. No one was complaining when Rolex's focus was the West...but now, the narrative has reached hyperbolic tones and suddenly we have Hans Wilsdorf on the grassy knoll and Rolex rubbing shoulders with the Illuminati. Hahaha.


Two years ago people rushing to get into a Submariner waitlist broke a Rolex store door in Korea. The respect Rolex commands in Asia can be a little head-spinning at times. And despite being the closest country from Japan, Grand Seiko is basically nonexistent in Korea.


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## mleok

Tonhao said:


> And despite being the closest country from Japan, Grand Seiko is basically nonexistent in Korea.


In light of the history between the two countries, that's not at all surprising.


----------



## chatman

I can try to address what I personally value in the GS that can't be found in Rolex. I have one Rolex and one GS in my collection. Both are lovely, but the GS gives me:
1. An absolutely sublime dial not present on any Rolex (SBGH269);
2. 5Hz movement with a beautiful gold second hand sweeping across the dial a little more smoothly than the quirky orange lightning-bolt hand on my Milgauss;
3. Dial furniture (hands, dials) that are so reflective that they're actually easier to read in low light than the lume on my Milgauss;
4. An exhibition case-back with a unique automatic winding rotor;
5. A higher level of mirror-finish polishing (though Rolex is no slouch in this department).
Also, the GS line gives you a ton of options and choices not available with Rolex generally, such as:
1. Materials like titanium and ceramic;
2. 5Hz automatic movements and spring drives;
3. Regularly refreshed dial options (though Rolex has some beautiful standard dial options); 
4. Exhibition case-backs across much of the range. 
I actually don't care much for most Rolex watches, though I enjoyed the Milgauss enough to buy one, and may also be interested in getting a Sky Dweller in a year or two (something that has become pretty common for people interested in the Rolex brand). But there are at least 3 GS's in the current lineup that I would love to acquire right away.


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## evvignes

I own a silver dial spring drive and a silver dial Oyster Perpetual. 
I like the Rolex better and wear it way more often.

I don't know why.


----------



## BrianBinFL

evvignes said:


> I like the Rolex better and wear it way more often.
> 
> I don't know why.


Very similar watches. The Rolex is a little more sport and the GS is a little more dress. Both very nice timepieces.


----------



## Tonhao

mleok said:


> In light of the history between the two countries, that's not at all surprising.


That plays a part, especially when relationships deteriorate and boycotts happen, but mostly it's because Asians in general respect European luxury goods more than those from Asia. Nothing wrong with it, also works the other way around as you can see that Grand Seiko Int'l relies on the exoticism of Japanese culture to appeal to Western customers.


----------



## krayzie

Sam K said:


> A week ago I asked myself the same question, though you could replace "Rolex" with any high end Swiss brand. Why pick the nice looking but rather generic GS watches over a UN, a IWC or a Hublot? Swiss watchmaking is the gold standard, and while Japanese craftmanship has a long and proud history, today I mostly associate it with very efficient mass production (Toyota) and not-worth-repairing consumer electronics (Sony). The high end automatic GS cost more than many high end Swiss automatic watches, and I just couldn't see how to justify that for something that shares it's brand name with cheap consumer quartz watches.
> 
> Until I actually went to see one in person.


LOL! Sounds like just never experienced a Toyota Crown / Century or Sony Esprit ES / R-Series Reference Audio in the past.

You'll probably end up with the same feeling as when you first handled a Grand Seiko / Credor.


----------



## PRabbit

I do think the grand Seiko feels just as nice as any Rolex I’ve seen in person. Reason I bought the GS instead is really mostly due to it being cheaper at this time and easy to get. I really don’t want to deal with the ADs and their waiting lines when dropping multiple thousands on a watch. Really leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I’m basically having to work for the privilege to buy one of their watches. I like it the other way around.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chas58

I appreciate the thoughtful replies here – as this is a good thread for someone learning.

There is an unspoken theme here that is important. Fundamentally, Rolex makes very conservative watches, and GS is willing to make playful watches (along with conservative ones). What stands out to me is that people on this thread cross shopping are often looking at the Rolex Milgauss. Easily the most interesting and playful Rolex out there.

If you want tool like luxury that is very conservative and understated, go for the Rolex. If you are playful and adventurous, GS has a lot to offer. 

I came close to buying a Milligauss, because it was one of the few Rolexes that had enough flair. But IMHO, it is about 40% too thick and heavy . If it was in a thinner 39mm Oyster case it would work for me (and obviously it doesn’t need to be a thick heavy lead filled case to be anti-magnetic).

Benefits of Rolex,
-	They have the supply/demand thing nailed to keep the interest, profitability, and resale maximized
-	They have Lume on their watches
-	Their core steel watches are super functional with nothing frivolous on them.

Benefits of GS
-	More interesting design
-	Hand made vs industrial machining
-	Much nicer dials on average
-	Beautiful finishing
-	No silly cyclops (sorry, but as a daily wearer, that really started to bug me)
-	I can by them from my AD, who can not get a steel Rolex for the life of him.
-	They are willing to make excellent quarts and spring drive watches.
-	Polishing is bright enough they don’t need lume

The Rolex brand recognition thing can be good or bad, depending on your perspective. I will say that looking around the world at people wearing Rolexes, they all seem to be people well into their retirement years. The rare GS I see in the wild is worn by someone about half that age.


----------



## donvegas

PRabbit said:


> I do think the grand Seiko feels just as nice as any Rolex I've seen in person. Reason I bought the GS instead is really mostly due to it being cheaper at this time and easy to get. I really don't want to deal with the ADs and their waiting lines when dropping multiple thousands on a watch. Really leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I'm basically having to work for the privilege to buy one of their watches. I like it the other way around.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well said. Simple and practical reasoning


----------



## koolpep

I have two GS and two Seiko Prospex watches. I also own a Rolex DJ II black dial and smooth bezel. 

The Rolex wears a bit more comfortable on my wrist, feels perfectly weighted and the bracelet is perfect. The 5mm extension is awesome in a hot and sometimes humid country. 

The GSs I have are lovely watches that I like to wear as well. I do think though that the bracelet is an opportunity for GS. Still some improvements to be made. 

Overall I am very happy with my collection and liking GS does not make me like my Rolex less or the other way around.


----------



## kamonjj

koolpep said:


> I have two GS and two Seiko Prospex watches. I also own a Rolex DJ II black dial and smooth bezel.
> 
> The Rolex wears a bit more comfortable on my wrist, feels perfectly weighted and the bracelet is perfect. The 5mm extension is awesome in a hot and sometimes humid country.
> 
> The GSs I have are lovely watches that I like to wear as well. I do think though that the bracelet is an opportunity for GS. Still some improvements to be made.
> 
> Overall I am very happy with my collection and liking GS does not make me like my Rolex less or the other way around.


I couldn't agree more regarding the bracelet. Particularly the clasp needing the most overhaul. How a clasp doesn't have micro adjustments in 2020 is beyond me.

I love GS's dial work and artistry. I high respect the craftsmanship of the head itself.

However, when I wear my 36mm dj, I appreciate it more than any GS I've owned because it's a better total package for me. It's a great size, dial work is good enough unless I'm using a loupe/macro lens. The bracelet is much nicer and the movement is incredibly accurate.

I personally don't want to wear a 40mm-ish dress style watch that also happens to be pretty thick (the sbgh267 is 13mm and thats thicker than my dive watch).


----------



## mrtrinh

I was looking a long time for a perfect dress watch, I thought I found it with the SBGW231. Dial is clean and symmetrical, manual wind, and no date. However, i was really displeased with the case and lugs. It did not sit well on my wrist and was not very comfortable. I ended up selling the GS and picked up a dj36. The dj36 is much more comfortable on the wrist, especially the jubliee bracelet. The blue dial is stunning and if i wanted to, I can go out casually with it.

I do however, miss the clean dial from the GS.


----------



## mleok

mrtrinh said:


> I was looking a long time for a perfect dress watch, I thought I found it with the SBGW231. Dial is clean and symmetrical, manual wind, and no date. However, i was really displeased with the case and lugs. It did not sit well on my wrist and was not very comfortable. I ended up selling the GS and picked up a dj36. The dj36 is much more comfortable on the wrist, especially the jubliee bracelet. The blue dial is stunning and if i wanted to, I can go out casually with it.
> 
> I do however, miss the clean dial from the GS.


The SBGW231 is a beautiful watch, but I always found it to be too thick at 11.6mm for an otherwise dressy watch with a manual wind movement.


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## mleok

Duplicate post.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

mrtrinh said:


> I was looking a long time for a perfect dress watch, I thought I found it with the SBGW231. Dial is clean and symmetrical, manual wind, and no date. However, i was really displeased with the case and lugs. It did not sit well on my wrist and was not very comfortable. I ended up selling the GS and picked up a dj36. The dj36 is much more comfortable on the wrist, especially the jubliee bracelet. The blue dial is stunning and if i wanted to, I can go out casually with it.
> 
> I do however, miss the clean dial from the GS.
> View attachment 14911019
> 
> View attachment 14911023


2 completely different watches in my opinion. Also, if I was looking for the "perfect dress watch", neither of these would fit the bill. 
I actually agree about comfort. I don't really like how a lot of GSs wear on leather due to their lugs and I feel the 235 on the BoR bracelet is the better option.


----------



## Johann23

To me it’s just different moods. I do t own. Date just but I do have a PT Day Date. When I want light and airy I go GS titanium, when I want heavy as Balls, I go PT DD. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mleok

Mr.Jones82 said:


> 2 completely different watches in my opinion. Also, if I was looking for the "perfect dress watch", neither of these would fit the bill.
> I actually agree about comfort. I don't really like how a lot of GSs wear on leather due to their lugs and I feel the 235 on the BoR bracelet is the better option.


I have always felt that most of the lugs on Grand Seikos pair best with a bracelet as opposed to a leather strap, as they tend to be on the thicker side.


----------



## pa1113

Doesn’t this just come down to which one you, personally, like better? And/or some combination of how well it holds value for some people? To me it’s just which one strikes you and nothing more. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## krayzie

mleok said:


> I have always felt that most of the lugs on Grand Seikos pair best with a bracelet as opposed to a leather strap, as they tend to be on the thicker side.


I've noticed long ago that the GS models made for leather straps from the factory tend to have smaller non-integrated looking lugs as if the case appears more round (not sure if that makes any sense).

I just never find Rolex good looking in general, then again I have a similar feeling towards Citizen and GS after they became an independent brand. Must be the font on the dial or something.

So I would take a pre-2017 GS over a Rolex.


----------



## mleok

krayzie said:


> I've noticed long ago that the GS models made for leather straps from the factory tend to have smaller non-integrated looking lugs as if the case appears more round (not sure if that makes any sense).
> 
> I just never find Rolex good looking in general, then again I have a similar feeling towards Citizen and GS after they became an independent brand. Must be the font on the dial or something.
> 
> So I would take a pre-2017 GS over a Rolex.


I know what you mean about the lugs on Grand Seikos which are delivered on leather straps, the lugs don't flow seamlessly from the case, and look like they're attached to a round case.

I prefer the older branding, with SEIKO at the top of the dial, as the dial feels somewhat top heavy in the current models.


----------



## iddaka

Lot of interesting opinions here. I am on the side of AD experience. Rolex sucks in that area.
And rather than spend my hard earned money on unwanted Rolex watches to “build a relationship”, I might as well spring the money for a Paatek or ALS.
Having said that, someday I want to get a Milgauss. The only Rolex I can see myself wearing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mleok

iddaka said:


> Lot of interesting opinions here. I am on the side of AD experience. Rolex sucks in that area.
> And rather than spend my hard earned money on unwanted Rolex watches to "build a relationship", I might as well spring the money for a Paatek or ALS.
> Having said that, someday I want to get a Milgauss. The only Rolex I can see myself wearing.


I saw a Milgauss at an AD recently, I don't think you have to jump through hoops to get one of those. As for the Patek, you'll have to build a relationship with the AD to get a stainless steel Nautilus.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

mleok said:


> I saw a Milgauss at an AD recently, I don't think you have to jump through hoops to get one of those.


Black, or metallic turquoise? The former don't seem to be especially thin on the ground. The latter more so, so much so that I've not had a chance to see one in person in recent years so haven't been able to confirm my impression that it's probably not one for me.


----------



## mleok

watchcrank said:


> Black, or metallic turquoise? The former don't seem to be especially thin on the ground. The latter more so, so much so that I've not had a chance to see one in person in recent years so haven't been able to confirm my impression that it's probably not one for me.


I don't recall precisely, but I think it was the black one. I'll let you know if I come across the Z-Blue version.


----------



## 1stiski

iddaka said:


> Lot of interesting opinions here. I am on the side of AD experience. Rolex sucks in that area.
> And rather than spend my hard earned money on unwanted Rolex watches to "build a relationship", I might as well spring the money for a Paatek or ALS.
> Having said that, someday I want to get a Milgauss. The only Rolex I can see myself wearing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love my GS , but I love my Z-blue even more !!


----------



## chatman

iddaka said:


> Lot of interesting opinions here. I am on the side of AD experience. Rolex sucks in that area.
> And rather than spend my hard earned money on unwanted Rolex watches to "build a relationship", I might as well spring the money for a Paatek or ALS.
> Having said that, someday I want to get a Milgauss. The only Rolex I can see myself wearing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just bought myself a GS and a Blue Milgauss within a month of one another - and I usually buy new watches once every 6-8 years! I'm a bit dizzy...


----------



## chatman

iddaka said:


> Lot of interesting opinions here. I am on the side of AD experience. Rolex sucks in that area.
> And rather than spend my hard earned money on unwanted Rolex watches to "build a relationship", I might as well spring the money for a Paatek or ALS.
> Having said that, someday I want to get a Milgauss. The only Rolex I can see myself wearing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just bought myself a GS and a Blue Milgauss within a month of one another - and I usually buy new watches once every 6-8 years! I'm a bit dizzy...


----------



## chatman

mleok said:


> I saw a Milgauss at an AD recently, I don't think you have to jump through hoops to get one of those. As for the Patek, you'll have to build a relationship with the AD to get a stainless steel Nautilus.


They're not impossible to get depending on the dealer, but the blue dial is definitely not something that typically sits in an AD's stock anymore. I waited a month for mine, but was told that I got pretty lucky - most wait 5-6 months for the blue-dial Milgauss. This is in marked contrast to what I noticed in 2017, where you could walk through an airport Rolex boutique and pick up a Z-blue Milgauss duty free with a discount. How quickly things change.


----------



## TraserH3

Well my theory is with this coming recession a lot of the instagram finance bro’s that’s been flocking towards stainless sport watches will get wiped out so supply and demand should get back to more normal. Ie you can choose between GS and a Rollie 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bullydog

I think I was in the same boat as a lot of people who haven't set eyes on a Grand Seiko, but once you do you'll know. The price point can't be beat for what you're getting even though some may say it's still a Japanese movt. I'm a believer and looking to pick up the SBGA415 Deep snow.


----------



## TellingTime

TraserH3 said:


> Well my theory is with this coming recession a lot of the instagram finance bro's that's been flocking towards stainless sport watches will get wiped out so supply and demand should get back to more normal. Ie you can choose between GS and a Rollie
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. Nothing like paying above retail in a recession.


----------



## pIonEerOFtHeNiLe

only reason one would do this is if you already have a rolex and or 10 other watches and wanted a GS for the collection. or you're japanese and loyal to the japan brand.

having 5-10K to spend and you have to choose between buying a seiko and a rolex is a bad decision.


----------



## Jostack

pIonEerOFtHeNiLe said:


> only reason one would do this is if you already have a rolex and or 10 other watches and wanted a GS for the collection. or you're japanese and loyal to the japan brand.
> 
> having 5-10K to spend and you have to choose between buying a seiko and a rolex is a bad decision.


Now, this guy right here
Knows what he's talking about. 
I don't care if he is a troll.


----------



## brandonskinner

pIonEerOFtHeNiLe said:


> only reason one would do this is if you already have a rolex and or 10 other watches and wanted a GS for the collection. or you're japanese and loyal to the japan brand.
> 
> having 5-10K to spend and you have to choose between buying a seiko and a rolex is a bad decision.


Sarcasm or that's how you actually feel?

IG thegrailwatch


----------



## DustinS

pIonEerOFtHeNiLe said:


> only reason one would do this is if you already have a rolex and or 10 other watches and wanted a GS for the collection. or you're japanese and loyal to the japan brand.
> 
> having 5-10K to spend and you have to choose between buying a seiko and a rolex is a bad decision.


lol, GS was my first big buy watch and I was if anything very anti seiko. It was the best decision I ever made.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

Oh, snap! Somebody played miracle man on this thread...hello Lazarus!

These days I have no interest in a DJ and find most GS offerings more appealing along with the Omega AT, all of which are at least half the price (If I was going to drop that kind of money I'd get a GO Senator Seventies personally).

I think the better question for me, which I have been struggling with for the past year, is whether or not to buy an OP 39, the white dial specifically. I would take it over pretty much any of the GS 3 handers (there are a few LEs I might take like the Sprucedrive), but where I run into trouble is the 9f's. They're the only perfectly proportioned watch in the GS lineup and for a fraction of the cost of an OP. The OP is a bit hard for me to justify at the price, but still intriguing. DJ...meh.


----------



## DustinS

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Oh, snap! Somebody played miracle man on this thread...hello Lazarus!
> 
> These days I have no interest in a DJ and find most GS offerings more appealing along with the Omega AT, all of which are at least half the price (If I was going to drop that kind of money I'd get a GO Senator Seventies personally).
> 
> I think the better question for me, which I have been struggling with for the past year, is whether or not to buy an OP 39, the white dial specifically. I would take it over pretty much any of the GS 3 handers (there are a few LEs I might take like the Sprucedrive), but where I run into trouble is the 9f's. They're the only perfectly proportioned watch in the GS lineup and for a fraction of the cost of an OP. The OP is a bit hard for me to justify at the price, but still intriguing. DJ...meh.


I was thinking about an OP until I put one on. The case is so basic, the way the lugs and case connected looked crude and industrial instead of being a crafted product. The dial is stunning and the bracelet is likely better built than a GS, but it's not anything special or really better than my tudor (when you move up in rolex their clasp at least goes go up in quality). Overall, while I like the OP...it's really not remotely on the same level in terms of design and craftsmanship as really ANY GS. But then again, the OP is really more of a daily wear beater where you don't mind beating the hell out of it. And in that...if you can justify the cost, it's a good option and better than the Tag I use for that purpose.


----------



## ispeshaled

Mr.Jones82 said:


> Oh, snap! Somebody played miracle man on this thread...hello Lazarus!
> 
> These days I have no interest in a DJ and find most GS offerings more appealing along with the Omega AT, all of which are at least half the price (If I was going to drop that kind of money I'd get a GO Senator Seventies personally).
> 
> I think the better question for me, which I have been struggling with for the past year, is whether or not to buy an OP 39, the white dial specifically. I would take it over pretty much any of the GS 3 handers (there are a few LEs I might take like the Sprucedrive), but where I run into trouble is the 9f's. They're the only perfectly proportioned watch in the GS lineup and for a fraction of the cost of an OP. The OP is a bit hard for me to justify at the price, but still intriguing. DJ...meh.


I'm in the same boat. My mind keeps flip-flopping between the OP39 white dial and a GS Four Seasons model with the 62GS case. If GS were to re-release this (not my pic), the decision would be clear....GS all the way!


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## reeder1

Haha! Your clickbait seems to be getting lots of responses, including mine: I like Grand Seiko. That's why. I don't need to convince you of that.

That said, I also like Rolex, and I respect the tradition, quality, beauty, and the enormous popularity they have. You ask a question, though, that implies superiority of your choice prior to hearing any answers to said question. Nobody is going to convince you! You're perpetuating the impression of Rolex owners being uptight and judgmental, and that's not fair to them.


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## Gravyboat6969

They are just so much more beautiful. Opinion of course. But the varieties and new designs always being released, so many stunners!


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## rodsky

I just did. Have a Rolex SS Submariner which i love (plus a couple other nice watches to include a Patek and a Panerai). My wife has a datejust. I've been intrigued by GS for a while. And wanted something different. So I bought this on Tuesday. I dont think it will be my last one either. I'm a crappy photographer but its a very interesting dial / watch.


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## joaquin1986

I would wear my GS more than rolex due to the following reasons:
1. GS quality is really beyond your expectation.
2. I would see alot of people wearing the batman or other rolexes. Till date, i have not encountered anyways wearing a GS. I like the GS being underrated.
3. Everytime i wear my batman, a lot of people keeps on asking if its real or not. I almost kinda want to show the receipt and bring them to the AD where i bought it to check my file as a customer.









Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Heljestrand

Times change. Sold off my 5 Grand Seiko and now wear Rolex.


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## BrianBinFL

Heljestrand said:


> Times change. Sold off my 5 Grand Seiko and now wear Rolex.


My condolences for your loss.


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## soufiane

BrianBinFL said:


> Some folks don't want to wear the same watch that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other people are wearing. Of course there's nothing wrong with a Datejust or any other Rolex, but it's just kind of de rigeur and not everyone gives a damn about the expectations of others.
> 
> Relative to the price and the silly games one must play to get one, compared to virtually any Grand Seiko Spring Drive there just isn't anything truly special about much of anything Rolex makes. Other than marketing Rolex doesn't do anything that isn't done as well or better by plenty of other luxury brands. On the other hand _nobody_ has anything like Spring Drive and if you want to beat Grand Seiko's dial, hands, indices, and case work, you're going to have to spend a hell of a lot more thatn what a GS costs just to get on par.
> 
> It's probably a tired old adage at this point but "you wear a Rolex to impress others, you wear a Grand Seiko to impress yourself".
> 
> Now with all of that said, Grand Seiko's "grammar of design" isn't for everyone. If Rolex's designs really float your boat then Grand Seiko may not be for you. And we're all really cool with that because they only make around 55,000 of them a year for the whole world and we'd rather not have to play waiting list games with our AD's.


I disagree, I've worn both and it's never been impressing others for me


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## which watch next

joaquin1986 said:


> I would wear my GS more than rolex due to the following reasons:
> 1. GS quality is really beyond your expectation.
> 2. I would see alot of people wearing the batman or other rolexes. Till date, i have not encountered anyways wearing a GS. I like the GS being underrated.
> 3. Everytime i wear my batman, a lot of people keeps on asking if its real or not. I almost kinda want to show the receipt and bring them to the AD where i bought it to check my file as a customer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


Stunning watch. One of my favorite GS


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## CMSgt Bo

_3. Everytime i wear my batman, a lot of people keeps on asking if its real or not. I almost kinda want to show the receipt and bring them to the AD where i bought it to check my file as a customer._

First of all, who cares what other people think. And in all my life I've only had one person ask if one of my watches were real, it was a Rolex AD who was confused by the custom display caseback I put on my Daytona. I would never let this concern sway me from buying something I really like.


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## BarracksSi

CMSgt Bo said:


> _3.* Everytime i wear my batman, a lot of people keeps on asking if its real or not.* I almost kinda want to show the receipt and bring them to the AD where i bought it to check my file as a customer._
> 
> First of all, who cares what other people think. *And in all my life I've only had one person ask if one of my watches were real,* it was a Rolex AD who was confused by the custom display caseback I put on my Daytona. I would never let this concern sway me from buying something I really like.


For you to dismiss another owner's experience with a "well it hasn't happened to me" is uncouth. It's like you're saying he was lying.


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## CMSgt Bo

BarracksSi said:


> For you to dismiss another owner's experience with a "well it hasn't happened to me" is uncouth. It's like you're saying he was lying.


I didn't dismiss anything, I added another data point to the conversation.

It may be a good time to check yourself.


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## BarracksSi

CMSgt Bo said:


> I didn't dismiss anything, I added another data point to the conversation.
> 
> It may be a good time to check yourself.


My extra data point is, I don't own a Rolex and have never been asked if my Apple Watch was fake.


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## matthew P

Heljestrand said:


> Times change. Sold off my 5 Grand Seiko and now wear Rolex.
> View attachment 15248737


love that OP, if I didn't already have my Explorer it would be the front runner for my daily wearer.
Hows the fit? Where you able to source an easy link for the bracelet?
I use mine daily in spring and fall when its cooler in the morning then warmer later. GS brackets could really use a micro adjustment feature and its the only thing that the OP lacks IMO.

If I was to buy a date just Id be chasing the Blue 36mm fluted crown/ jubilee bracelet.... I don't see GS doing anything that compares to that look.

GS handsets/ case polish and general ascetic is so different that I don't really see the comparison. I prefer the GS in most items but bracelet fit and adjustability is so much better on Rolex watches that it really impacts my on wrist enjoyment. 
My high beat fits pretty well but having to fiddle with small screws and half link positioning to adjust from summer to winter sizing blows. 
Ive given up adjusting these days and just wear it slightly too loose and wait for the warmth to snug it up a little.... but because of that it gets much less wear.

Im also of the opinion that Wabi is a little less impactful on Rolex finishing as its less of a feature in the beginning.
My Highbeat gets babied because I don't want to scratch it up too much where as my explorer doesn't show the wear anywhere as much.

food for thought


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## mleok

Heljestrand said:


> Times change. Sold off my 5 Grand Seiko and now wear Rolex.
> View attachment 15248737


Love the OP39 in white, I got one as a GADA just before we went into lockdown.


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## mleok

CMSgt Bo said:


> _3. Everytime i wear my batman, a lot of people keeps on asking if its real or not. I almost kinda want to show the receipt and bring them to the AD where i bought it to check my file as a customer._
> 
> First of all, who cares what other people think. And in all my life I've only had one person ask if one of my watches were real, it was a Rolex AD who was confused by the custom display caseback I put on my Daytona. I would never let this concern sway me from buying something I really like.


Isn't it ironic that GS owners keep talking about buying a watch for themselves as opposed to impressing people, yet worry constantly about how others would perceive them if they wore a Rolex? I don't understand the need to constantly insinuate that they're a purer form of watch enthusiast.


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## mleok

BarracksSi said:


> For you to dismiss another owner's experience with a "well it hasn't happened to me" is uncouth. It's like you're saying he was lying.


No, he basically said why do you care what other people think, and that he personally has not encountered such an issue. For the record, neither have I.


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## BarracksSi

mleok said:


> No, he basically said why do you care what other people think, and that he personally has not encountered such an issue. For the record, neither have I.


We can't speak for joaquin1986's daily experiences. But going by what he wrote, it sounds to me like if I was around people who always asked if my watch was fake, it'd bug the hell out of me, too.


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## mleok

matthew P said:


> love that OP, if I didn't already have my Explorer it would be the front runner for my daily wearer.
> Hows the fit? Where you able to source an easy link for the bracelet?
> I use mine daily in spring and fall when its cooler in the morning then warmer later. GS brackets could really use a micro adjustment feature and its the only thing that the OP lacks IMO.
> 
> If I was to buy a date just Id be chasing the Blue 36mm fluted crown/ jubilee bracelet.... I don't see GS doing anything that compares to that look.
> 
> GS handsets/ case polish and general ascetic is so different that I don't really see the comparison. I prefer the GS in most items but bracelet fit and adjustability is so much better on Rolex watches that it really impacts my on wrist enjoyment.
> My high beat fits pretty well but having to fiddle with small screws and half link positioning to adjust from summer to winter sizing blows.
> Ive given up adjusting these days and just wear it slightly too loose and wait for the warmth to snug it up a little.... but because of that it gets much less wear.
> 
> Im also of the opinion that Wabi is a little less impactful on Rolex finishing as its less of a feature in the beginning.
> My Highbeat gets babied because I don't want to scratch it up too much where as my explorer doesn't show the wear anywhere as much.
> 
> food for thought


A big part of the discussion that seems to get lost is that Rolex has excellent on wrist wearability, because of the case proportions and the adjustability of the bracelet. I was able to purchase the Easylink clasp from another forum member, at a significant markup, but it is well worth the additional comfort that it provides. I wish Rolex included it as part of the OP, or offered it as an option, as it truly is a perfect everyday watch, even better than the Explorer I, in my opinion.


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## jkpa

Looked at nearly every Rolex in 5000-9000 range but in the end went Snowflake last week and I'm so glad I did. So much quality and tech and craftsmanship and superb details. I love the DJ but it's really not in the same league IMO


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## mleok

BarracksSi said:


> We can't speak for joaquin1986's daily experiences. But going by what he wrote, it sounds to me like if I was around people who always asked if my watch was fake, it'd bug the hell out of me, too.


If so, he needs better friends.


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## BarracksSi

mleok said:


> If so, he needs better friends.


Way out of WUS's scope of advice, unfortunately.


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## joaquin1986

BarracksSi said:


> Way out of WUS's scope of advice, unfortunately.


I never thought that my post will be a point of discussion. Lol

Anyways, the experienced i had, was also due to racism. The westerner who thought that my batman was a fake never imagine that a simple asian like me would get a chance to buy a batman at retail in an authorized dealer. I guess, he went to several ADs and told that rolex sports watches are not available.









Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Sparrowhawk

If it truly bothers him that much, people asking him if it is real, he could always sell it.

Should not be difficult, it's a Rolex, right.

Problem solved.


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## matthew P

mleok said:


> A big part of the discussion that seems to get lost is that Rolex has excellent on wrist wearability, because of the case proportions and the adjustability of the bracelet. I was able to purchase the Easylink clasp from another forum member, at a significant markup, but it is well worth the additional comfort that it provides. I wish Rolex included it as part of the OP, or offered it as an option, as it truly is a perfect everyday watch, even better than the Explorer I, in my opinion.


Easy link does really up the comfort / fit factor. 
As to the OP being a better everyday watch - you may be right, it's more versatile and less sporty, but that's why I prefer the Explorer. 
As a one watch solution the black or white OP really do shine - but one watch..... seriously 










•• sent by two turn tables and a microphone ••


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## kamonjj

I’ve never been asked if a Rolex I was wearing was fake. Hell, I’ve hardly ever been asked about any of them in general. No one cares what watch you’re wearing, if they do you’re probably hanging with the wrong crowd. 

Rolex takes the crown. Sorry gents. Come to the dark side. It’s okay. You’ll probably be glad you did.


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## Mirabello1

Grand Seiko watches need some lume on them to make them interesting... I've had three Grand Seiko and though they have beautiful dials I think some Seiko lume on those babies would look so much better... Otherwise to be honest the handset and indices looks like something on one of my grandfather's watches from the '70s...

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## Tomatoes11

I am currently waiting for Rolex to make my datejust and haven’t seen a GS that would make me throw money at the screen yet but they are getting closer. Once they do I don’t think I would have much issue being a GS owner again.

That said, I am surprisingly leaning towards the Seiko SBDC107 over the Tudor black bay 58 blue. So score one for Seiko.


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## BerutoSenpai

GS all day. I can't even see myself wearing a Rolex because of the ridiculous amount of Rolex's I see on people every time I go to high-end places.


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## cwik

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/9a1ct2

When anyone asks this question, I point them to these photos.


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## Pongster

Because they look better


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## claybaybai

cwik said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/9a1ct2
> 
> When anyone asks this question, I point them to these photos.


Wow shocked by the relative crudeness of the Omega. I love my snowflake, but it is definitelty not as comfortable as a datejust on jubilee imo.


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## WatchOutChicago

GS is an objectively better finished watch. There is room for both in a collection but I’d say each are objectively superior to the other in various categories. Rolex if you want a mass produced, rock solid, status symbol. GS if you want a more refined and under the radar piece of “wrist art.” No wrong answers but it doesn’t follow that either is inferior to the other. For me, GS > Rolex all day, however. 


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