# New DK30 - DK32 with A26 movement



## Adventureman

Received this email from Damasko a few moments ago. Watches not on their website just yet...
Edit: Now available here: Models with manufactory movement


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## Contaygious

Got the email too! Was hoping for a more novel design watch though...


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## petgti

if that's it then it's dissapointing


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## lvt

petgti said:


> if that's it then it's dissapointing


Why it's disappointing?

It looks pretty good in the photo.


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## MrDagon007

The general layout of the movement is pretty similar to a 2824 though not exactly the same.


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## petgti

lvt said:


> Why it's disappointing?
> 
> It looks pretty good in the photo.


for me it is. nice watches, nice movement, but I was hoping to see the new movement in the DA models/design. perhaps with a design update. that's why I say, if these are the only models then it is dissapointing


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## jonobailey

Can't complain - its a good upgrade on an already popular model for them.

Likewise in the longer term I would to see some design improvements - fully understand the Damasko design aesthetic and love the technologies, but I do think the designs could be accused of being a bit bland and constrained by their own aesthetic.

I own quite a few damasko's but wouldn't buy another, purely down to the design. With the exception of the DK105, all dials are flat and printed, with very similar designs / fonts / colours / hand-sets. - they do all look too similar!

Just do a small (38-40mm) dress / tool watch with applied markers and Damasko case tech and you would have an absolute winner!


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## Brekel

petgti said:


> for me it is. nice watches, nice movement, but I was hoping to see the new movement in the DA models/design. perhaps with a design update. that's why I say, if these are the only models then it is dissapointing


That makes two of us  New movement, exhibition back, submarine steel and better lume in the DA-range would have been nice.


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## petgti

jonobailey said:


> Can't complain - its a good upgrade on an already popular model for them.
> 
> Likewise in the longer term I would to see some design improvements - fully understand the Damasko design aesthetic and love the technologies, but I do think the designs could be accused of being a bit bland and constrained by their own aesthetic.
> 
> I own quite a few damasko's but wouldn't buy another, purely down to the design. With the exception of the DK105, all dials are flat and printed, with very similar designs / fonts / colours / hand-sets. - they do all look too similar!
> 
> Just do a small (38-40mm) dress / tool watch with applied markers and Damasko case tech and you would have an absolute winner!


I'm a huge fan of Damasko and their design and technology. The dc67 si is my daily watch. can't seem to be able to take it off. amazing tool. 
i just wish/hope to see the new movement in the DA series. a non date DA would be amazing in my opinion


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## CollectorS

Really impressed by the price: only 400 EUR extra to have the in-house movement.


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## Buramu

I'm not particularly impressed with the watch itself, but that movement is _*really*_ fine looking!


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## pjmaxm

jonobailey said:


> Just do a small (38-40mm) dress / tool watch with applied markers and Damasko case tech and you would have an absolute winner!


This is exactly what I am hoping for in the future.

As it is, the blue dialed no date version looks appealing but not sure if I will move on from my DS30 Windup for it.


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## GreatScott

I am sure this is just the start, then it will gradually roll to all models.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Moonstarer

I am not impressed with the new movement - I understand, using silicon parts would reflect in the cost, however power reserve, antimagnetic resistance is not on level with what other competitors are doing with the new movement releases.


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## IWCeaseAndDesist

Will these new models replace the DS30s?


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## ziplepingouin

Good to see they launched their new movement. I was hoping for a better power reserve... Even though this specific model is not my favourite, I'm looking forward to see what new model they'll put this movement in...


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## JJ312

A bit underwhelming, especially coming on the heels of the Oris Calibre 400.


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## Patrick B.

Moonstarer said:


> I am not impressed with the new movement - I understand, using silicon parts would reflect in the cost, however power reserve, antimagnetic resistance is not on level with what other competitors are doing with the new movement releases.


This will remain the domain of A35 movements, the top line of Damasko. The new A26 is a replacement for the well known ETA with the same specs. I think that for the price point its a good, solid movement wich must prove from now on that it's reliable. I believe it will be so. I'm impressed what this small family owned brand can achieve.


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## mistikalsunshine

I prefer the solid case back on the ds30.

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## Adventureman

CollectorS said:


> Really impressed by the price: only 400 EUR extra to have the in-house movement.


While an in-house movement is pretty cool for bragging rights and makes the owner feel better, there really isn't anything wrong with ETA (and Sellita) movements. And ETA can be serviced/repaired by many while an in-house movement is more limited. And long-term accuracy and reliability still needs to be proven for a new in-house movement.

These new models are not for me as I don't like the plain but still rather busy dial. Curious to see what the new DA will be like but expect the same design with a $500-600 or more price increase. I'll stick with my DA26 and DA20 for now.

Not seeing any information about the new A26 movement on the Damasko website. You would think they would have complete technical and other details available.


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## whineboy

Adventureman said:


> While an in-house movement is pretty cool for bragging rights and makes the owner feel better, there isn't anything really wrong with the ETA movements. And ETA can be serviced/repaired by many while an in-house movement is more limited. And long-term accuracy and reliability still needs to be proven for a new in-house movement.
> 
> These new models are not for me as I don't like the plain but still rather busy dial. Curious to see what the new DA will be like but expect the same design with a $500-600 or more price increase. I'll stick with my DA26 and DA20 for now.
> 
> Not seeing any information about the new A26 movement on the Damasko website. You would think they would have complete technical and other details available.


Here you go:

A26 movement specs

And FWIW, I like both my in-house and ETA-powered Damaskos.


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## Sparrowhawk

Adventureman said:


> While an in-house movement is pretty cool for bragging rights and makes the owner feel better, there really isn't anything wrong with ETA (and Sellita) movements.


Other than the fact that ETA movements are likely to become more difficult to procure, hence the move by Damasko to an in house movement to counteract the lack of supply.


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## Adventureman

What's the reason Damasko doesn't use Sellita movements? It appears those should readily available as many other watch manufacturers switched to those.


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## longtimelurker

The movement doesn't seem to be a huge upgrade and the design is more "evolution" than "revolution". Not really worth the "new watch" marketing, imo.
I don't think this is going to resonate with the customer base so much. Their bread and butter is more the case tech and attractive pricing. This doesn't really ring either bell. 
They did better with the DC8X because of the CMC interest.


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## Rice and Gravy

To me the price increase that goes with it makes it much less appealing. At just under $1k the DS30 was really nice watch given the tech, workmanship and regulated movement. It was a much better value with better specs and tech than it's competitor the Sinn 556. That DS30 is now the DK30 with the new in-house movement and see through case and costs 60% more. WOW. If that is any indication of how the prices will go up for this same movement in the DA3/4 replacements, we are talking about $2k-$2300 watches. I knew prices would go up, but man, that is a big jump. I am really glad I bought one of the last new DA36 available.


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## Rice and Gravy

But that being said, I do really like the blue no date.


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## noregrets

^exactly. The price increase doesn't seem nearly justified by the movement. Quite a letdown in many ways.


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## singularityseven

A bit disappointing to see no more information than just this: Manufactory calibre A26-X

What accuracy range are we looking at?
What value is being delivered above and beyond the ETA equivalent watch?


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## JJ312

It does say adjusted in only three positions. I wouldn’t be expecting stellar accuracy.


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## mrozowjj

I'm kind of underwhelmed by this. They hyped it up like it was a brand new design but from a design perspective it's exactly the same as the DS30 except now you have a display caseback so they can show you their in house movement and you have the option for no date. I like the clean lines of the no date but in house movement is for me... less appealing.

I understand it's a technical achievement and watch people love being able to say "in house movement" but from a user perspective an ETA or Sellita provides a very similar level of accuracy with the added benefit of being able to be serviced in any reputable watch repair shop.

I agree with *jonobailey give me a 38mm applied marker Damasko style watch and I'd love that.*


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## MrDagon007

JJ312 said:


> A bit underwhelming, especially coming on the heels of the Oris Calibre 400.


But look at the price difference.


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## MrDagon007

mrozowjj said:


> I'm kind of underwhelmed by this. They hyped it up like it was a brand new design but from a design perspective it's exactly the same as the DS30 except now you have a display caseback so they can show you their in house movement and you have the option for no date. I like the clean lines of the no date but in house movement is for me... less appealing.
> 
> I understand it's a technical achievement and watch people love being able to say "in house movement" but from a user perspective an ETA or Sellita provides a very similar level of accuracy with the added benefit of being able to be serviced in any reputable watch repair shop.
> 
> I agree with *jonobailey give me a 38mm applied marker Damasko style watch and I'd love that.*


Nearly any movement short of a Rolex or that Defy Lab movement will not be substantially more accurate than an eta.
Even so, this independence shows even more the difference between a boutique engineered Damasko and a generic small brand that has simply been assembled.


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## mrozowjj

MrDagon007 said:


> Nearly any movement short of a Rolex or that Defy Lab movement will not be substantially more accurate than an eta.
> Even so, this independence shows even more the difference between a boutique engineered Damasko and a generic small brand that has simply been assembled.


Maybe my taste had changed in the last year or two but I kind of don't care as much as I used to if it's just and assembled watch as long as it's assembled well and I like the look of it. I understand and appreciate the engineering that went into it as the end user it doesn't really offer me anything.


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## Moonstarer

Patrick B. said:


> This will remain the domain of A35 movements, the top line of Damasko. The new A26 is a replacement for the well known ETA with the same specs. I think that for the price point its a good, solid movement wich must prove from now on that it's reliable. I believe it will be so. I'm impressed what this small family owned brand can achieve.


Thinking about this and your comment, I agree - this movement is to replace ETA in the "basic" models and I hope and finger cross the movement will perform even better than old good ETA.
I would personally wish to see Damasko 70hours-ish power reserve automatic movement, equipped with silicon parts, strong antimagnetic resistance in the case / watch thickness around or below 13mm - a dream watch for me.


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## CollectorS

singularityseven said:


> A bit disappointing to see no more information than just this: Manufactory calibre A26-X
> 
> What accuracy range are we looking at?
> What value is being delivered above and beyond the ETA equivalent watch?


I couldn't agree more.

Maybe there isn't much to "brag about" regarding the technological aspect of the new movement. We have been told that this is simply a replacement for ETA 2824 for the sake of supply sustainability, so I wouldn't expect things like silicon hairspring and upgraded balance wheel, etc.

Damasko only charge a $400 premium (no date model) to cover their R&D which I think it's fair.


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## chiron93

Personally, I think if they advertised it as just a new movement rather than a new watch, I would have been less disappointed with DK30/32 (since it's the same watch as DS30).
I was hoping they would come out with a new dial design in the DS30 case with this new movement.
Then the price hike may not have been conceived as for just the movement.

And about their naming...
I thought it was..(well...just my guess)
DA - Damasko Aviation
DC - Damasko Chrono
DS - Damasko Sport
DK - Damasko Klassik

And now it looks like they are going with DK for their A-xx in-house movement watches.
Is their any word with K that would imply in-house manufacturing? Just curious....


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## Rice and Gravy

K for Konrad?


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## petgti

DamasKo


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## asmd77

chiron93 said:


> And about their naming...
> I thought it was..(well...just my guess)
> DA - Damasko Aviation
> DC - Damasko Chrono
> DS - Damasko Sport
> DK - Damasko Klassik
> 
> And now it looks like they are going with DK for their A-xx in-house movement watches.
> Is their any word with K that would imply in-house manufacturing? Just curious....


My guess is:
DA - DAmasko
DC - Damasko Chrono
DS - Damasko Submarine (Steel)
DK - Damasko Kaliber (the German word for movemen)


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## oso2276

Nice achievement. Looks capable and a good replacement for ETA 2824
I wonder if it will be possible to retrofit one of these to the DSUBs 

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk


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## LosAngelesTimer

Like many here, I'm underwhelmed. While I applaud the fact that Damasko engineered an in-house movement, the movement itself seems to lack a USP aside from simply being in-house. Many buyers are looking for an excuse to pick up something new or to justify a purchase. Damasko hasn't really provided it with the A26. Just one outstanding feature - 80 hour PR, silicon parts, chronometer-level accuracy - would likely be enough to prompt a picky WIS to open their wallet. Sadly, we don't really see that here.

As for the "new" watch, it's very much standard-issue Damasko which is no real surprise.


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## pisar

any info what happened to DA36 etc.? Are they discontinued?


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## Erik_H

Personally I have to salute Damasko for being able to come up with a new entry level in-house movement, this is just incredible for a small independent manufacturer. I don’t see how they could be able to develop and tool up for both the new movement and a complete new design at the same time, this takes immense effort, time and cost. Again, congratulations to Damasko!


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## Igorek

pisar said:


> any info what happened to DA36 etc.? Are they discontinued?


Watches with 2824 movement will be replaced with new Damasko movement.


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## Adventureman

Do we know for sure the DAxx series will be replaced with the same design and new movement? The new A26 movement doesn't have a day function so will look a bit empty on the dial with just the date.


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## chiron93

Adventureman said:


> Do we know for sure the DAxx series will be replaced with the same design and new movement? The new A26 movement doesn't have a day function so will look a bit empty on the dial with just the date.


In the other thread on A26, it is mentioned that there are 3 variants of A26.
A26-1 no date, A26-2 with date, A26-3 day/date.
So, they probably have something lined up for DAxx.


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## Adventureman

Thanks @chiron93 . The DS increased about US$ 600 for the date version so maybe even more for a day/date. So price will probably be close to $1800 for the basic 40mm and more than $2000 for the rotating bezels models. I like the technology, German made and mostly made inhouse aspects of these watches but that's quite a lot of money for basic 3-hander watches. Sinn is becoming much more attractive now.


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## whineboy

asmd77 said:


> My guess is:
> DA - DAmasko
> DC - Damasko Chrono
> DS - Damasko Submarine (Steel)
> DK - Damasko Kaliber (the German word for movemen)


Edited:

I asked this in mid-2019, Mike Stuffler's response makes a bit more sense for DA and DS.









DA, DB, DC, DH, DK, DS - what do they stand for?


I have long wondered why Damasko chose various letter combinations to describe its watches. Professor Google did not help me. I expect that D stands for Damasko. I'm thinking C stands for chronograph (in both DE and EN), H for hunter (but Jäger in DE), S and DSub for submarine (Unterseeboot...




www.watchuseek.com





Having a great time.
whineboy


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## OmegaGateway

I am excited for Damasko on this one! I was not expecting the new model to be an "in house DS30" if you will.
The display case back was a very nice touch to admire their in house movement which looks great for a small company with lots of room to grow.
I do wish the power reserve was longer to get through a weekend of not wearing. Will I be "upgrading" from my DS30...no, but I will be admiring this one from the pictures in the forums.
Would upgrading to the long awaited in house manufactory bracelet...heck yeah I would!
Great job with these releases Damasko! 👍👍 Will be keeping an eye out for other new releases.


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## OmegaGateway

Adventureman said:


> Thanks @chiron93 . The DS increased about US$ 600 for the date version so maybe even more for a day/date. So price will probably be close to $1800 for the basic 40mm and more than $2000 for the rotating bezels models. I like the technology, German made and mostly made inhouse aspects of these watches but that's quite a lot of money for basic 3-hander watches. Sinn is becoming much more attractive now.


Thats a good point on the price differences of Sinn and Damasko.
Both offer different technologies. I supposed its a matter of weighing these things out among other deciding factors.
But lets not forget Sinn is also using a Selita movement in their DS30 competitor (the 556).


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## Kirkawall

MrDagon007 said:


> Nearly any movement short of a Rolex or that Defy Lab movement will not be substantially more accurate than an eta.
> Even so, this independence shows even more the difference between a boutique engineered Damasko and a generic small brand that has simply been assembled.


IDK about that. The Omega METAS and IWC in-house movements are spec'd as more accurate right from the factory, as are Tudor's, Breitling's and several others -- although whether that's considered "substantially" more accurate is perhaps another matter.

The move to in-house movements may also provide a rationale to boost a watch lineup into the next tier of pricing also. More perceived value, more incentive for customers to stretch that bit further. Kudos to Damasko for developing these and hope they do well with them. I'll love my ETA-based Damaskos all the same.


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## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

The in-house movement is definitely superior to the ETA Elabore (they really should upgrade to TOP), but it doesn't justify a 40% price increase. The value for money just isn't there.

The main appeal of the DK30 is that there's a no-date option. I have a pathological hatred of 3 o'clock date windows.


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## Contaygious

With a new movement I want new designs. I have no reason to upgrade... Need more dials, cord, textures etc. Look at what sinn is doing.


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## Trod1072

Adventureman said:


> Received this email from Damasko a few moments ago. Watches not on their website just yet...
> Edit: Now available here: Models with manufactory movement
> 
> View attachment 15576637
> 
> View attachment 15576638


The fact that Damasko does almost everything in house and manages to keep prices reasonable compared to other Swiss or German brands is impressive. Damasko manages to push itself despite its small size.

Admittedly I am not a fan of all their designs, but as a tool watch they continue to innovate and impress. I am shocked that people are not impressed by an in house movement and in house case manufactured in a European country for a price just over a grand. Compare this to the off the shelf movements stuffed into the ocean of microbrands with cases and materials most likely sourced from Asia.

I have been collecting watches for thirty years. My first Automatic watch purchase was a Fortis in 1996 for 345 Dollars with a mineral glass and ETA movement. If Damasko can give me a solid tool watch for just over a grand in 2021 with everything in house? No brainer.


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## Erik_H

Trod1072 said:


> The fact that Damasko does almost everything in house and manages to keep prices reasonable compared to other Swiss or German brands is impressive. Damasko manages to push itself despite its small size.
> 
> Admittedly I am not a fan of all their designs, but as a tool watch they continue to innovate and impress. I am shocked that people are not impressed by an in house movement and in house case manufactured in a European country for a price just over a grand. Compare this to the off the shelf movements stuffed into the ocean of microbrands with cases and materials most likely sourced from Asia.
> 
> I have been collecting watches for thirty years. My first Automatic watch purchase was a Fortis in 1996 for 345 Dollars with a mineral glass and ETA movement. If Damasko can give me a solid tool watch for just over a grand in 2021 with everything in house? No brainer.


I fully agree, as I have stated earlier. Kudos to Damasko for having the competency and willingness to do this.


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## jay_smith

I think it shows Damasko maturing as a watch manufacturer and is in keeping with the impressive attention to detail seen in their watches.
Just one question - does substituting the sub-steel for a glass case back compromise the magnetic resistance of the watch, or is most of this down to the movement (I see that both ETA2824 and A26 both meet the same standard).


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## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

jay_smith said:


> I think it shows Damasko maturing as a watch manufacturer and is in keeping with the impressive attention to detail seen in their watches.
> Just one question - does substituting the sub-steel for a glass case back compromise the magnetic resistance of the watch, or is most of this down to the movement (I see that both ETA2824 and A26 both meet the same standard).


It certainly does compromise the magnetic resistance.
That being said, it's still DIN rated, so... I guess the steel casebacks were just overkill.

Or it's the new balance spring that's totally non-magnetic which makes the watch much less prone to magnetism to begin with.


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## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> Or it's the new balance spring that's totally non-magnetic which makes the watch much less prone to magnetism to begin with.


Why do you say this? As far as I can tell, the A26 does not use a silicon hairspring, that is reserved for the DK105/DK1X models. If the A26 uses a metal hairspring, it would be susceptible to magnetism, no?

Edit - if you are going to use an Si hairspring you will also have an Si escape wheel (my DK105 does). I don't think that is feasible at the price point in question. The DK105 costs >2X these watches.

Having a great time.
whineboy


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## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> Why do you say this? As far as I can tell, the A26 does not use a silicon hairspring, that is reserved for the DK105/DK1X models. If the A26 uses a metal hairspring, it would be susceptible to magnetism, no?
> 
> Edit - if you are going to use an Si hairspring you will also have an Si escape wheel (my DK105 does). I don't think that is feasible at the price point in question. The DK105 costs >2X these watches.
> 
> Having a great time.
> whineboy


The description on the A26 movement doesn't state what the hairspring is made from. However from the Technology page of their website, they make it clear that they produce their own hairsprings: Technologies

It's safe to assume that the A26 has just such a hairspring. Otherwise, it won't retain its DIN3809 rating. You can't build a movement into a Faraday Cage with a display caseback.

My understanding is that the ETA 2824 movements they use in the DS30 models retain their old hairsprings (as this is a fairly expensive part to replace) and the watch case itself acts as a magnetic shield since it's an all steel case. The DK30's displace caseback necessitates a non-magnetic hairspring.

IWC did something similar. When they went to display casebacks for their pilot watches, they installed silicon hairsprings.


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## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> The description on the A26 movement doesn't state what the hairspring is made from. However from the Technology page of their website, they make it clear that they produce their own hairsprings: Technologies
> 
> It's safe to assume that the A26 has just such a hairspring. Otherwise, it won't retain its DIN3809 rating. You can't build a movement into a Faraday Cage with a display caseback.
> 
> My understanding is that the ETA 2824 movements they use in the DS30 models retain their old hairsprings (as this is a fairly expensive part to replace) and the watch case itself acts as a magnetic shield since it's an all steel case. The DK30's displace caseback necessitates a non-magnetic hairspring.
> 
> IWC did something similar. When they went to display casebacks for their pilot watches, they installed silicon hairsprings.


Sorry for the length of this reply, but I don't see anything to support your conclusion.

The Damasko webpage discussing silicon hairsprings is old and predates the A26 (I recall Damasko developed the polycrystalline Si EPS hairspring around 2008). I don't think you can extrapolate from it that Damasko makes hairsprings for the A26.

Looking at the A26 movement I do not see a silicon hairspring. As far as I know, silicon hairsprings are only used with free-sprung balances. Based on Damasko's image of the A26 it has a conventional pin/lever regulator, not a free-sprung balance. Compare it to Damasko's A35 and H35 movements which use Si hairsprings, and have free-sprung balances, regulation being accomplished through four rotatable weights which alter the balance's moment of inertia.




























Also, Damasko states the elabore-grade ETA 2824-2 and 2836-2 movements it uses comply with DIN 8309 - and they do not have silicon hairsprings. 2824-2 and 2836-2 . This confirms my understanding that those movements inherently meet DIN 8309 without further technical modification such as an iron cage or Si hairspring. DIN 8309 is a low standard - "the value given in *DIN 8309*, set very low at *4,800 A/m*, does not provide sufficient protection in practice. " ( Watch Insider ).

Remember, the DIN 8309 standard only involves a magnetic field of 4,800 A/m ( Horology Zone ), not the 80,000 A/M field level that many Damaskos can withstand due to their iron cages or silicon hairsprings. The Horology Zone article notes that movements can meet the DIN 8309 standard using Nivarox hairsprings, Nivarox being a well-known and long used steel alloy. And note Mike Stuffler's post #9 in the following thread, where he points out DIN 8309 is a low standard met by all watches: Magnetism, how real is it?.

So it's clear to me that silicon tech is not required to meet DIN 8309, and standard ETA movements satisfy the standard. Here's an example of an inexpensive Dekla watch that complies with DIN 8309 using an elabore-grade ETA 2892 movement: Dekla Pilot Watch . And this thread includes several posts noting base ETA movements meet DIN 8309: Sinn / DIN 8309

Now, if someone inspects an A26 movement and finds a silicon hairspring, I will gladly admit I was wrong.


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## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> The Damasko webpage discussing silicon hairsprings is old and predates the A26 (I recall Damasko developed the polycrystalline Si EPS hairspring around 2008). I don't think you can extrapolate from it that Damasko makes hairsprings for the A26.


Why not though? If they've been producing these hairsprings since 2008, then they're probably happy with the tech. And if they're making an in-house movement, I don't see why they wouldn't use a hairspring they already produce.

If you're really curious, you can just give them a call. I'm sure they will confirm one way or another.


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## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> Why not though? If they've been producing these hairsprings since 2008, then they're probably happy with the tech. And if they're making an in-house movement, I don't see why they wouldn't use a hairspring they already produce.
> 
> If you're really curious, you can just give them a call. I'm sure they will confirm one way or another.


Email sent. Stay tuned.


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## whineboy

Just heard from Damasko, they said the A26 does not have a silicon hairspring.
Case closed.


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## Rice and Gravy

To me, and this is just my opinion, this (no silicon) just does not jive with a 60% increase in price. I love what Damasko does as a small, family owned company doing so many things so well and in-house, but I just don't see the market going well for them on these at such a premium price. I hope I am wrong.


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## whineboy

Rice and Gravy said:


> To me, and this is just my opinion, this (no silicon) just does not jive with a 60% increase in price. I love what Damasko does as a small, family owned company doing so many things so well and in-house, but I just don't see the market going well for them on these at such a premium price. I hope I am wrong.


I agree with you that the price increase is steep.
I'm sure one reason is because the new movements cost substantially more than the ETAs they replace. With ETA having made millions of 2824s and 2836s, their economies of scale must be amazing, I can't see Damasko coming close.
But to add a silicon hairspring and escapement? I think that'd force Damasko to raise prices to almost the level of the DK105/DK1X lines. 
I'll go out on a limb and say Damasko probably sees silicon as a differentiator between its base and prestige lines.


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## nepatriot

whineboy said:


> Just heard from Damasko, they said the A26 does not have a silicon hairspring.
> Case closed.


Good to know and confirm!

I wonder if they made any improvements to the 2484? I've seen no comparison of features and benefits, which I would think they would have ready to put out there.

One I'm curious about is hand winding.

There is a fairly prevalent POV out there that the ETA 2824, and its cousin, the STILETTO SW200, should rarely be hand wound, due to something inherent in the used teeth on the gears involved that can easily be damaged.

If Damasko solved for this, that could be viewed as a meaningful improvement. I like to keep a movement wound up close to full "charge", and would find a self winder that can also be routinely hand wound a tangible feature and benefit.

ETA has 2801, a manual movement designed for hand winding only. If the A26 combines the best of the 2824\SW200 and 2801, one could argue it's worth more.


----------



## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> Just heard from Damasko, they said the A26 does not have a silicon hairspring.
> Case closed.


Now that is interesting...
I wonder how it retains magnetic protection with a display caseback then...


----------



## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> Now that is interesting...
> I wonder how it retains magnetic protection with a display caseback then...


As I said before, DIN 8309 is a low standard and modern hairspring materials allow movements to meet it inherently. I expect Damasko is using such a material. They might even be purchasing it from Nivarox-FAR (Swatch group company), but I am speculating.
I do not think steel watch cases themselves confer anti-magnetic properties. For the case to contribute to antimagnetic properties, an inner iron cage is needed. [this is wrong - later posts in the thread note Damasko uses submarine steel in some watches and they state it is antimagnetic.]


----------



## whineboy

nepatriot said:


> Good to know and confirm!
> 
> I wonder if they made any improvements to the 2484? I've seen no comparison of features and benefits, which I would think they would have ready to put out there.
> 
> One I'm curious about is hand winding.
> 
> There is a fairly prevalent POV out there that the ETA 2824, and its cousin, the STILETTO SW200, should rarely be hand wound, due to something inherent in the used teeth on the gears involved that can easily be damaged.
> 
> If Damasko solved for this, that could be viewed as a meaningful improvement. I like to keep a movement wound up close to full "charge", and would find a self winder that can also be routinely hand wound a tangible feature and benefit.
> 
> ETA has 2801, a manual movement designed for hand winding only. If the A26 combines the best of the 2824\SW200 and 2801, one could argue it's worth more.


You suggest a question that I haven't heard answered - is the A26 related in design to the ETA 2824 (some have noted the H35/A35 have the layout architecture of the Valjoux/ETA 7750).

Like you, I am from the camp that says it's not a good idea to handwind excessively ETA 2824s and Sellita SW200s.

I recall one shortcoming of ETA 2824s was due to problems with lubrication of the automatic works' reverser wheels. That's not an issue with the A26, since it uses pawl winding, which is the same as Seiko's Magic Lever system.

Knowing how meticulous Damasko is, I think they are aware of the handwinding issue and I have confidence that when the A26 was designed they addressed it. But only time will tell.


----------



## Rice and Gravy

whineboy said:


> I agree with you that the price increase is steep.
> I'm sure one reason is because the new movements cost substantially more than the ETAs they replace. With ETA having made millions of 2824s and 2836s, their economies of scale must be amazing, I can't see Damasko coming close.
> But to add a silicon hairspring and escapement? I think that'd force Damasko to raise prices to almost the level of the DK105/DK1X lines.
> *I'll go out on a limb and say Damasko probably sees silicon as a differentiator between its base and prestige lines.*


That's a good point.


----------



## noregrets

So would the new DK30 then, at a much higher price and with an in-house movement, have significantly less magnetic protection than the original DS30? My understanding is that submarine steel itself is an extremely anti-magnetic form of steel, but by putting on the display back is that advantage obviated to some degree?


----------



## nepatriot

whineboy said:


> You suggest a question that I haven't heard answered - is the A26 related in design to the ETA 2824 (some have noted the H35/A35 have the layout architecture of the Valjoux/ETA 7750).
> 
> Like you, I am from the camp that says it's not a good idea to handwind excessively ETA 2824s and Sellita SW200s.
> 
> I recall one shortcoming of ETA 2824s was due to problems with lubrication of the automatic works' reverser wheels. That's not an issue with the A26, since it uses pawl winding, which is the same as Seiko's Magic Lever system.
> 
> Knowing how meticulous Damasko is, I think they are aware of the handwinding issue and I have confidence that when the A26 was designed they addressed it. But only time will tell.


Yes, was thinking of Seiko: handing winding not an issue. Maybe at some point Damasko will publish a side by side comparison of their movement vs ETA and Sellita.


----------



## whineboy

noregrets said:


> So would the new DK30 then, at a much higher price and with an in-house movement, have significantly less magnetic protection than the original DS30? My understanding is that submarine steel itself is an extremely anti-magnetic form of steel, but by putting on the display back is that advantage obviated to some degree?


I'm thinking the DK30 would have roughly the same magnetic resistance as the DS30, since both are made of submarine steel. As you pointed out, that steel is antimagnetic, Damasko's notes on the DSub1 state "The austenitic submarine steel of the case exclusively purchased of German production convinces with its extreme crack-resistance due to its ductility. The steel is corrosion resistant even when used in sea water for long periods and absolute antimagnetic." DSub1. Seems to me that statement extends to the DS30 and DK30, both are made with submarine steel. And I think it's reasonable to assume the A26 would be at least as antimagnetic as the ETA 2824-2 used in the DS30, as both would use a suitable hairspring material like Nivarox/Nivaflex. All taken together I would expect the DK30 to be at least as magnetically resistant as the DS30. [edit: apparently Nivaflex is only used for mainsprings]

[please, let's not argue about 'absolute' means, it's probably a translation issue]

Something I find interesting is that while the case is submarine steel, what about the dial blank - if it isn't submarine steel or some other material with suitable magnetic properties, can the magnetic field penetrate, or is it somehow influenced by the case?

I look forward to learning more about Damasko's A26.


----------



## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> As I said before, DIN 8309 is a low standard and modern hairspring materials allow movements to meet it inherently. I expect Damasko is using such a material. They might even be purchasing it from Nivarox-FAR (Swatch group company), but I am speculating.
> I do not think steel watch cases themselves confer anti-magnetic properties. For the case to contribute to antimagnetic properties, an inner iron cage is needed.


Hold on, with all due respect, I don't buy this rationale.

If the ETA movements are DIN certified by default as you imply, then won't the hundreds of models that use ETA movements all be DIN certified, or its ISO equivalent?
Yet, I don't see this certification being marketed that often outside of brands like Sinn, Damasko, IWC etc.

And actually, looking through the description for the DK30, there's no indicator of what the DIN certification is: DK30


----------



## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> Hold on, with all due respect, I don't buy this rationale.
> 
> If the ETA movements are DIN certified by default as you imply, then won't the hundreds of models that use ETA movements all be DIN certified, or its ISO equivalent?
> Yet, I don't see this certification being marketed that often outside of brands like Sinn, Damasko, IWC etc.
> 
> And actually, looking through the description for the DK30, there's no indicator of what the DIN certification is: DK30


DIN compliant. Not DIN certified - I never used that expression. That is a very different thing, few standards bodies do compliance testing, it is time-consuming and costly. I am an attorney who used to handle standardization matters for an international semiconductor manufacturer, so I know quite a lot about the topic.

And why would there be a need to test different watches? Only the movements matter, if they meet the standard, then watches using those movements also must be standard-compliant.

And did you not read this comment by former mod Mike Stuffler, a watch expert, in one of the threads I linked to? "All wrist watches have to meet the requirements of DIN 8309 or ISO 764 = 4.800 and all do." Mike's knowledge of watches is encyclopedic, so that is the definitive answer, full stop.

Edit:

Regarding the DK30, it it DIN 8309 compliant because it uses the A26 movement, which meets DIN 8309.










OK?

Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> DIN compliant. Not DIN certified - I never used that expression. That is a very different thing, few standards bodies do compliance testing, it is time-consuming and costly. I am an attorney who used to handle standardization matters for an international semiconductor manufacturer, so I know quite a lot about the topic.
> 
> And why would there be a need to test different watches? Only the movements matter, if they meet the standard, then watches using those movements also must be standard-compliant.
> 
> And did you not read this comment by former mod Mike Stuffler, a watch expert, in one of the threads I linked to? "All wrist watches have to meet the requirements of DIN 8309 or ISO 764 = 4.800 and all do." Mike's knowledge of watches is encyclopedic, so that is the definitive answer, full stop.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Regarding the DK30, it it DIN 8309 compliant because it uses the A26 movement, which meets DIN 8309.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OK?
> 
> Having a great time.
> whineboy


So it's the movement itself and not just the watch casing. Interesting.


----------



## whineboy

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> So it's the movement itself and not just the watch casing. Interesting.


ISO 764 (comparable to DIN 8309 - as I don't speak German) speaks of watches. There may be a section addressing movements, but I don't have access to the complete standard document.



https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:764:ed-4:v1:en



Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## oso2276

jay_smith said:


> Just one question - does substituting the sub-steel for a glass case back compromise the magnetic resistance of the watch, or is most of this down to the movement (I see that both ETA2824 and A26 both meet the same standard).


The are sub steel (if I recall correctly), so they would not need the Faraday case that Martensitic steel needs

Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk


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## CollectorS

oso2276 said:


> The are sub steel (if I recall correctly), so they would not need the Faraday case that Martensitic steel needs
> 
> Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using Tapatalk


 "...the shielding cage, which all DAMASKO models without a glass bottom have..."






Sophisticated Magnetic Protection


DAMASKO is a German watch manufactory specialising in high quality mechanical watches and chronographs.




www.damasko-watches.com


----------



## whineboy

CollectorS said:


> "...the shielding cage, which all DAMASKO models without a glass bottom have..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sophisticated Magnetic Protection
> 
> 
> DAMASKO is a German watch manufactory specialising in high quality mechanical watches and chronographs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.damasko-watches.com


I wonder if that is old copy predating the DS line. At 9.9 mm thick, the DS watches seem too slender to have inner cages.

This page suggests only Damasko's martensitic watches have cages. I think oso2276 is right.










Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## Rice and Gravy

Its too bad Mike is no longer around to put this to rest.


----------



## CollectorS

Rice and Gravy said:


> Its too bad Mike is no longer around to put this to rest.


The ultimate solution would be to ask Damasko directly. However I am too shy to reach out.


----------



## Rice and Gravy

Yes it would. Frankly, I am a little surprised there are not more details about the new movement/watches available yet.


----------



## chiron93

Not sure if it was there before but I see there is a press release document on A26 on Damasko website.
If u haven't seen it, check it out.
It mentions that A26 has lots of interchangeable parts with 2824.
Also enhanced durability for hand winding ....


----------



## whineboy

chiron93 said:


> Not sure if it was there before but I see there is a press release document on A26 on Damasko website.
> If u haven't seen it, check it out.
> It mentions that A26 has lots of interchangeable parts with 2824.
> Also enhanced durability for hand winding ....


Good catch, thanks. Were you referring to this announcement?





















https://www.damasko-watches.com/media/pdf/44/3c/d2/Press_Release-_DAMASKO_A26_12_2020_ENG0Xq4w8YQ1FbEH.pdf



Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## chiron93

whineboy said:


> Good catch, thanks. Were you referring to this announcement?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.damasko-watches.com/media/pdf/44/3c/d2/Press_Release-_DAMASKO_A26_12_2020_ENG0Xq4w8YQ1FbEH.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Having a great time.
> whineboy


Yes, this is the one I was referring to.
Thanks for putting it here!


----------



## diynor_77

ThisHobbyBankruptsMe said:


> The in-house movement is definitely superior to the ETA Elabore (they really should upgrade to TOP), but it doesn't justify a 40% price increase. The value for money just isn't there.
> 
> The main appeal of the DK30 is that there's a no-date option. I have a pathological hatred of 3 o'clock date windows.


My judgement is only based on the available pictures from Damasko.

The A26 seems to be just another clone of the ETA 2824 with a few changes not oriented to improve the performance. This are some observations:


A26 uses the seiko magic lever system.This is not an improvement over the double reverser from the 2824. In my opinion magic lever is superior based on the simplicity and lower manufacturing costs. Not an improvement in performance.
Balance bridge vs Balance cock. Irrelevant change, purely cosmetic.
Increased counterweight ball-bearing diameter. This is an improvement over something that didnt need to be improved, ETA 2824s dont fail there.
Balance assembly: A26x balance assembly appears to be the one from the ETA. I wonder whether they just copied the design or they purchased the entire assembly from any of the manufacturers producing clones of ETA 2824. There balance wheel is not made of Glucydur and I am wondering on what would be the materials on the other elements.

Paying more money for the in-house movement A-26 is completely absurd. Supporting their development by paying a premium: nonsense. This is just a commercial decission that Damasko has made in an attempt to diffetenciate themselves from other manufacturers without providing any additional substance to justify the extra cost.

Why this would need to be supported by the consumers? I fail to see it.


----------



## whineboy

diynor_77 said:


> My judgement is only based on the available pictures from Damasko.
> 
> The A26 seems to be just another clone of the ETA 2824 with a few changes not oriented to improve the performance. This are some observations:
> 
> 
> A26 uses the seiko magic lever system.This is not an improvement over the double reverser from the 2824. In my opinion magic lever is superior based on the simplicity and lower manufacturing costs. Not an improvement in performance.
> Balance bridge vs Balance cock. Irrelevant change, purely cosmetic.
> Increased counterweight ball-bearing diameter. This is an improvement over something that didnt need to be improved, ETA 2824s dont fail there.
> Balance assembly: A26x balance assembly appears to be the one from the ETA. I wonder whether they just copied the design or they purchased the entire assembly from any of the manufacturers producing clones of ETA 2824. There balance wheel is not made of Glucydur and I am wondering on what would be the materials on the other elements.
> 
> Paying more money for the in-house movement A-26 is completely absurd. Supporting their development by paying a premium: nonsense. This is just a commercial decission that Damasko has made in an attempt to diffetenciate themselves from other manufacturers without providing any additional substance to justify the extra cost.
> 
> Why this would need to be supported by the consumers? I fail to see it.


Hardened steel handwinding components instead of brass impresses me. Who else has done that?

Having a great time.
whineboy


----------



## ThisHobbyBankruptsMe

whineboy said:


> Hardened steel handwinding components instead of brass impresses me. Who else has done that?
> 
> Having a great time.
> whineboy


It's an improvement for sure, but not $400 worth of an improvement.

Overall an ETA movement is more practical. If you need to get it serviced, anyone can do it. I doubt if there's going to be anyone besides Damasko that's going to be familiar with the A26, nor anyone that would have replacement parts.


----------



## diynor_77

whineboy said:


> Hardened steel handwinding components instead of brass impresses me. Who else has done that?
> 
> Having a great time.
> whineboy


Fully agree. We have narrowed the discussion into the single "improvement" worth to talk about it.

A great achievement both for Seiko and Damasko. Seiko delivers it for a grand total of 30usd (ref. NH36 cost per unit) and Damasko wants to overcharge hundreds of dollars for the "exclusivity".

In defense of the system used on the 2824: using brass in their ratchet wheel is the right choice. The aspects justifiyng this are:

The use of disimilar materials to minimize wear. The pinion from the automatic train is made of hardened steel, as the crown wheel also is. This selection of materials is pretty standard - ref. ETA 2892, miyota 9015, etc... all of them equipped with ratchet wheels made of brass.
The ratchet wheel is a weak link in the system to protect the rest of the gear train. The design of the ratchet wheel enables a very simple and cheap manufacturing ( a single one-step dye stamping over a sheet of brass, followed by thumbling in bulk to remove the burrs - That's all). It is so cheap to make... that this part can be precautinary replaced in every service with no significant added cost to the owner.


----------



## diynor_77

diynor_77 said:


> Fully agree. We have narrowed the discussion into the single "improvement" worth to talk about it.
> 
> A great achievement both for Seiko and Damasko. Seiko delivers it for a grand total of 30usd (ref. NH36 cost per unit) and Damasko wants to overcharge hundreds of dollars for the "exclusivity".
> 
> In defense of the system used on the 2824: using brass in their ratchet wheel is the right choice. The aspects justifiyng this are:
> 
> The use of disimilar materials to minimize wear. The pinion from the automatic train is made of hardened steel, as the crown wheel also is. This selection of materials is pretty standard - ref. ETA 2892, miyota 9015, etc... all of them equipped with ratchet wheels made of brass.
> The ratchet wheel is a weak link in the system to protect the rest of the gear train. The design of the ratchet wheel enables a very simple and cheap manufacturing ( a single one-step dye stamping over a sheet of brass, followed by thumbling in bulk to remove the burrs - That's all). It is so cheap to make... that this part can be precautinary replaced in every service with no significant added cost to the owner.


I have reviewed Mark's video and noticed that Damasko has kept the brass ratchet wheel and the crown wheel from the 2824 - no changes whatsoever.

Not even the idea of creating an hybrid movement is original to Damasko... Seagull ST16 is exactly the same: A clone from miyota 8215 with the Seiko's magic Lever included...

we all know the purchase price of an ST16 - where do I think Damasko should position their A26 movement price? at the same level of the rest of the ETA 2824 clones.... after all it is nothing more than that - the rest just marketing literature.


----------



## DAMASKO

Dear forum members


Thank you all for your feedback which is always very important for us.
Regarding Mike we are very sad that Mike is not active in the WUS Forum anymore, however, we wish him all the best for the future.
Maybe he comes back :-(

Besides we think that there are a few misunderstandings. The A26 family was developed to fit in every 2824-2 case. The customer can choose, if he wants ETA or in-house.
As everyone might know the purchase of ETA movements is very difficult and will get even more difficult. The quality of the other available movements don´t meet the quality standard of DAMASKO or would lead us to a totally different price range. The above mentioned movements included.

The ETA reverser gears are technical a very good option, if everybody would give his watch for service in a period of approximately 3-5 years (as a preventive measure). In reality the watches come back when the auto winder stops working. Very often the movements have to be serviced completely because of dirt and abrasion. After many years of servicing the ETA movements we have seen that there were always problems with the winding, this means we all love to wind up the watch manually which causes abrasion not in the gears but in the brass mounting on the plate . These problems were one of our main issues which we have successfully solved in the A26 family. The A26 family has a completely new development base of which several expansion levels will follow. The movement itself is not just an hybrid or a clone it is a combination of construction which we think are the best. Please take in mind the auto winding is also filed for patent by DAMASKO.

Regarding the price point the A26 is an in-house movement with technical refinements produced in low quantities here compared with mass standard movements. The surcharge was held as minor as possible, please compare to the surcharge of the in-house movements of other companies. But at least at DAMASKO you can choose between an ETA or an in-house.

for further questions and suggestions it will be a pleasure for me to answer.

Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy!

Konrad


----------



## whineboy

DAMASKO said:


> Dear forum members
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback which is always very important for us.
> Regarding Mike we are very sad that Mike is not active in the WUS Forum anymore, however, we wish him all the best for the future.
> Maybe he comes back :-(
> 
> Besides we think that there are a few misunderstandings. The A26 family was developed to fit in every 2824-2 case. The customer can choose, if he wants ETA or in-house.
> As everyone might know the purchase of ETA movements is very difficult and will get even more difficult. The quality of the other available movements don´t meet the quality standard of DAMASKO or would lead us to a totally different price range. The above mentioned movements included.
> 
> The ETA reverser gears are technical a very good option, if everybody would give his watch for service in a period of approximately 3-5 years (as a preventive measure). In reality the watches come back when the auto winder stops working. Very often the movements have to be serviced completely because of dirt and abrasion. After many years of servicing the ETA movements we have seen that there were always problems with the winding, this means we all love to wind up the watch manually which causes abrasion not in the gears but in the brass mounting on the plate . These problems were one of our main issues which we have successfully solved in the A26 family. The A26 family has a completely new development base of which several expansion levels will follow. The movement itself is not just an hybrid or a clone it is a combination of construction which we think are the best. Please take in mind the auto winding is also filed for patent by DAMASKO.
> 
> Regarding the price point the A26 is an in-house movement with technical refinements produced in low quantities here compared with mass standard movements. The surcharge was held as minor as possible, please compare to the surcharge of the in-house movements of other companies. But at least at DAMASKO you can choose between an ETA or an in-house.
> 
> for further questions and suggestions it will be a pleasure for me to answer.
> 
> Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy!
> 
> Konrad


Thank you for the explanation, Herr Damasko.
It's always a pleasure to hear directly from our forum sponsor. As a patent lawyer, I am impressed by Damasko's protection of its inventive technology.
Best wishes and good health to all at Damasko in the new year.


----------



## Overwound

MrDagon007 said:


> The general layout of the movement is pretty similar to a 2824 though not exactly the same.


True, but the full balance bridge is a nice improvement for shock resistance. Plus it remains easily serviceable by many watchmakers. A tougher 2824 alternative is a great option and the movement I'd choose if getting this Damasko.


----------



## noregrets

DAMASKO said:


> Dear forum members
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback which is always very important for us.
> Regarding Mike we are very sad that Mike is not active in the WUS Forum anymore, however, we wish him all the best for the future.
> Maybe he comes back :-(
> 
> Besides we think that there are a few misunderstandings. The A26 family was developed to fit in every 2824-2 case. The customer can choose, if he wants ETA or in-house.
> As everyone might know the purchase of ETA movements is very difficult and will get even more difficult. The quality of the other available movements don´t meet the quality standard of DAMASKO or would lead us to a totally different price range. The above mentioned movements included.
> 
> The ETA reverser gears are technical a very good option, if everybody would give his watch for service in a period of approximately 3-5 years (as a preventive measure). In reality the watches come back when the auto winder stops working. Very often the movements have to be serviced completely because of dirt and abrasion. After many years of servicing the ETA movements we have seen that there were always problems with the winding, this means we all love to wind up the watch manually which causes abrasion not in the gears but in the brass mounting on the plate . These problems were one of our main issues which we have successfully solved in the A26 family. The A26 family has a completely new development base of which several expansion levels will follow. The movement itself is not just an hybrid or a clone it is a combination of construction which we think are the best. Please take in mind the auto winding is also filed for patent by DAMASKO.
> 
> Regarding the price point the A26 is an in-house movement with technical refinements produced in low quantities here compared with mass standard movements. The surcharge was held as minor as possible, please compare to the surcharge of the in-house movements of other companies. But at least at DAMASKO you can choose between an ETA or an in-house.
> 
> for further questions and suggestions it will be a pleasure for me to answer.
> 
> Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy!
> 
> Konrad


Thank you, Herr Damasko, for laying that out for us. It is particularly helpful in that a significantly improved hand-winding ability and longer time period until service in my opinion go a long way toward justifying the price increase. Happy holidays!


----------



## Jblaze36wv

If I am not mistaken, with in-house movements, cases, bracelets, and parts...Damasko is now just about fully in-house. For a smaller brand, at this price point, I feel that is quite the achievement. This is a brand I’d like to remain a customer of for many more years as they are truly achieving some special things all while their time pieces are being purposefully over- engineered. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## benny

For me the hand winding upgrade is a big deal. I prefer a hand winding watch (have a dk105), and have been holding off on a damasko chronograph, either a dc57 si or a dc80, as the watch will be hand wound often (pretty much every day) and the eta auto hand winding weaknesses are well know. If damasko rolls the winding upgrade into the chronos, the wallet will open  

I wonder how many here who comment negatively on the price increase, especially compared to low wage asian produced "microbrands" and giant conglomerates (who also produce in low wage countries), have ever owned, or even worked for, a small, family business who is concerned about actually producing something THEMSELVES while paying adults a fair wage. I applaud damasko for the course they have chosen. It would certainly be easier to slash production costs of the actual product by outsourcing everything, pay hodinkee to review, spend a lot on marketing and ultimately charge more for less.


----------



## Kirkawall

benny said:


> *For me the hand winding upgrade is a big deal. I prefer a hand winding watch (have a dk105), and have been holding off on a damasko chronograph, either a dc57 si or a dc80, as the watch will be hand wound often (pretty much every day) and the eta auto hand winding weaknesses are well know.* If damasko rolls the winding upgrade into the chronos, the wallet will open
> 
> I wonder how many here who comment negatively on the price increase, especially compared to low wage asian produced "microbrands" and giant conglomerates (who also produce in low wage countries), have ever owned, or even worked for, a small, family business who is concerned about actually producing something THEMSELVES while paying adults a fair wage. I applaud damasko for the course they have chosen. It would certainly be easier to slash production costs of the actual product by outsourcing everything, pay hodinkee to review, spend a lot on marketing and ultimately charge more for less.


Not qualified to comment on the shortfalls of the ETA 2824's hand-winding implementation but thought some of you might be interested in seeing this copied explanation from the well-known watchsmith and forum contributor Archer on another forum:

*ArcherOmega Qualified WatchmakerToday at 8:18am*
Posts19,069Likes41,178


> abrod520 said: ↑
> 
> 
> 
> ETA 2824 / 2892 or respective Sellita clone (SW200 / SW300) movements that feature hand-winding ability but aren't properly designed; hand-winding watches with these movements often catches the rotor and can damage them. (Feel free to Google search "hand winding spins rotor) and learn more on your own)
> 
> 
> 
> There's no design issue here - if you are having the rotor spin while winding, it's a fault in the reversing wheels, and they should be changed. If they are worn, dirty, or improperly lubricated they won't function properly, but when properly taken care of they work just fine when hand winding.
> 
> This is not specific to these calibers either - any watch from any brand with reversing wheels can have this problem. For example here's a Tissot Navigator Chrono with a Lemania 1341 movement (same movement as an Omega 1040) - reversing wheels not functioning properly when it came in:
> 
> After service:
> 
> Once cleaned, they worked fine.
Click to expand...

Link for full discussion is here: Watch winder? | Omega Forums


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## recon493

I totally agree with you. I no longer own a Damasko and I miss my DA46 and its absolute overall quality, from the bezel action to the smoothness of the finish on such a "toolish" matte look. I only got rid of it due to siding with my Sinn 857 with the simple 3 hand + small date window. I am hoping Damasko comes out with something similar (no day of week) with the A26 movement. The DK30 is perfect except I would love for it to be in the 42mm size. I do not move enough to keep a full charge on autos and actually would love a watch that I felt confident hand winding. I hope 2021 reveals a new watch design. If not, I will keep my Sinn 857 until they do.


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## Betterthere

DAMASKO said:


> Dear forum members
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback which is always very important for us.
> Regarding Mike we are very sad that Mike is not active in the WUS Forum anymore, however, we wish him all the best for the future.
> Maybe he comes back :-(
> 
> Besides we think that there are a few misunderstandings. The A26 family was developed to fit in every 2824-2 case. The customer can choose, if he wants ETA or in-house.
> As everyone might know the purchase of ETA movements is very difficult and will get even more difficult. The quality of the other available movements don´t meet the quality standard of DAMASKO or would lead us to a totally different price range. The above mentioned movements included.
> 
> The ETA reverser gears are technical a very good option, if everybody would give his watch for service in a period of approximately 3-5 years (as a preventive measure). In reality the watches come back when the auto winder stops working. Very often the movements have to be serviced completely because of dirt and abrasion. After many years of servicing the ETA movements we have seen that there were always problems with the winding, this means we all love to wind up the watch manually which causes abrasion not in the gears but in the brass mounting on the plate . These problems were one of our main issues which we have successfully solved in the A26 family. The A26 family has a completely new development base of which several expansion levels will follow. The movement itself is not just an hybrid or a clone it is a combination of construction which we think are the best. Please take in mind the auto winding is also filed for patent by DAMASKO.
> 
> Regarding the price point the A26 is an in-house movement with technical refinements produced in low quantities here compared with mass standard movements. The surcharge was held as minor as possible, please compare to the surcharge of the in-house movements of other companies. But at least at DAMASKO you can choose between an ETA or an in-house.
> 
> for further questions and suggestions it will be a pleasure for me to answer.
> 
> Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy!
> 
> Konrad


Thanks for the update... look forward to other models with the A26


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## Rice and Gravy

benny said:


> For me the hand winding upgrade is a big deal. I prefer a hand winding watch (have a dk105), and have been holding off on a damasko chronograph, either a dc57 si or a dc80, as the watch will be hand wound often (pretty much every day) and the eta auto hand winding weaknesses are well know. If damasko rolls the winding upgrade into the chronos, the wallet will open
> 
> I wonder how many here who comment negatively on the price increase, especially compared to low wage asian produced "microbrands" and giant conglomerates (who also produce in low wage countries), have ever owned, or even worked for, a small, family business who is concerned about actually producing something THEMSELVES while paying adults a fair wage. I applaud damasko for the course they have chosen. It would certainly be easier to slash production costs of the actual product by outsourcing everything, pay hodinkee to review, spend a lot on marketing and ultimately charge more for less.


I applaud them too, just don't applaud the 40% increase in price for the movement in what is essentially the same watch but with a see through case back. And I am not comparing it to other microbrands, I am comparing it to Damasko themselves, and to the Sinn 556 I suppose. To me Damasko presents a fantastic value for what you get. I love that they are a small, family run company with their own home-grown tech, making incredibly robust and accurate watches with great attention to detail. The DS30 at under $1000 was a great value for what you got. Now at $1450 or $1650 for the DK3x it no longer is IMO. Factor that out to the DA3/4 series with the A26 movement and you have $2k watches now! I buy the watches I do because I like them and see the value in how they are priced, not because I want to support the company/family. I wish them well, and applaud that they did it with this movement, but I just don't see these selling very well at that price point.


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## diynor_77

DAMASKO said:


> Dear forum members
> 
> Thank you all for your feedback which is always very important for us.
> Regarding Mike we are very sad that Mike is not active in the WUS Forum anymore, however, we wish him all the best for the future.
> Maybe he comes back :-(
> 
> Besides we think that there are a few misunderstandings. The A26 family was developed to fit in every 2824-2 case. The customer can choose, if he wants ETA or in-house.
> As everyone might know the purchase of ETA movements is very difficult and will get even more difficult. The quality of the other available movements don´t meet the quality standard of DAMASKO or would lead us to a totally different price range. The above mentioned movements included.
> 
> The ETA reverser gears are technical a very good option, if everybody would give his watch for service in a period of approximately 3-5 years (as a preventive measure). In reality the watches come back when the auto winder stops working. Very often the movements have to be serviced completely because of dirt and abrasion. After many years of servicing the ETA movements we have seen that there were always problems with the winding, this means we all love to wind up the watch manually which causes abrasion not in the gears but in the brass mounting on the plate . These problems were one of our main issues which we have successfully solved in the A26 family. The A26 family has a completely new development base of which several expansion levels will follow. The movement itself is not just an hybrid or a clone it is a combination of construction which we think are the best. Please take in mind the auto winding is also filed for patent by DAMASKO.
> 
> Regarding the price point the A26 is an in-house movement with technical refinements produced in low quantities here compared with mass standard movements. The surcharge was held as minor as possible, please compare to the surcharge of the in-house movements of other companies. But at least at DAMASKO you can choose between an ETA or an in-house.
> 
> for further questions and suggestions it will be a pleasure for me to answer.
> 
> Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy!
> 
> Konrad


Hi Konrad - much appreciated your participation in the discussion.

I agree that reverser wheels are more sensitive to poor maintenance, excess of oil or dirt in the movement than Seiko Magic lever system. This is because the tiny tolerances between their internal parts. (Unfortunately, this can lead to excessive demand to the ratchet wheel teeth duting hand-winding. Those teeths are the ones I have seen getting damaged during hand-winding, I have not seen any damage on the movement plates or in the jewels where the gears are mounted).

You are also stating that there is no issue with reverser wheels as long as you service your watch every 3-5 years. Implicit to this statement is that your A26 will have a recommended service interval greater than 5 years - what service interval are you recommending for A26? If it is also 5 years I dont see any improvement here.

For what I see an A26 is not a product superior in any way to the ones you choose to call "mass produced", i.e. ETA 2824, Sellita SW200 or STP1-11 (All of them Swiss made and supplied in several levels of quality/grades for the consumer to choose).

Please, tell us what are the A26 factory performance especifications/ acceptable deviation per day? so, we consumers, can have an objective value to compare your product with the other contenders.

On a side note - I fail to see the innovation on the A26 that can be protected by a patent. If the patent protects:

the use of a ball-bearing to operate the pawl... this is a marginal improvement over something that Seiko has solved via a jewelled bearing and steel-Steel bearing with no remarcable issues to improve upon.
Ceramic ball-bearings: you may achieve marginally less friction than with steel ball-bearings - but this is at the expense of introducing a material that can chip, crack or break when it is subject to a shock.... again, an example of finding a solution for a non-existent problem.

Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy you too!


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## nasser.tamimi

Would love to have seen 3 or 4 arabics on the blue dial, with a red or yellow sweep. I really like the Sinn 556 A RS, but prefer the gorgeous blue face of the Damasko. As it is I won't be pulling the trigger on either.


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## gmtseahawk

Any new A26 watches on the horizon? Excited to see a DA4x with the new movement.


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## watchcrank_tx

JJ312 said:


> It does say adjusted in only three positions. I wouldn't be expecting stellar accuracy.


The ETA élaboré grade 2824-2 Damasko use already is likewise only adjusted to 3 positions. I do however wish this movement had targeted top grade instead of élaboré at least in adjustments, even if the overall timekeeping of top grade was out of reach for material reasons.


whineboy said:


> Hardened steel handwinding components instead of brass impresses me. Who else has done that?


That was a standout to me also. Though I don't often handwind an automatic, the fact that doing so to the 28[23]x movements and their direct clones risks damaging them simply annoys me. Also I suspect that the full balance bridge will result in marginally better consistency on an active wrist (though perhaps I am ascribing too much to it).

The price seems fair to me. It's a slight improvement but a big move. In-house doesn't necessarily make for a better movement, but it does IMO make for a healthier industry, which I welcome and am content to pay for. I have not enjoyed the years-long hostage situation to which so many brands I like have been subjected by the tightening ETA supply and the often insufficient supply of Sellita and other replacements, not to mention that bringing production in-house opens the door to future development and improvements impossible (or at least more difficult and expensive) to those forced to purchase movements from the outside.


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## whineboy

diynor_77 said:


> On a side note - I fail to see the innovation on the A26 that can be protected by a patent. If the patent protects:
> 
> the use of a ball-bearing to operate the pawl... this is a marginal improvement over something that Seiko has solved via a jewelled bearing and steel-Steel bearing with no remarcable issues to improve upon.
> Ceramic ball-bearings: you may achieve marginally less friction than with steel ball-bearings - but this is at the expense of introducing a material that can chip, crack or break when it is subject to a shock.... again, an example of finding a solution for a non-existent problem.
> 
> Best regards and all the best for the new year. Most of all stay safe and healthy you too!


Patents on broad concepts are uncommon nowadays except in new areas of technology (think of buckyballs back in the day). In mature mechanical technologies patents often focus on specific aspects of structure (for example, the invention could involve the configuration or materials used for the bearing race, perhaps the process used to form the ceramic balls, or a myriad of other things). Of course I'm hypothesizing and have no knowledge of Damasko's patent strategy. 
To find out what the Damasko patent(s) protect one has to look at the patent claims, not the body of the patent.
Edit - when people refer to a movement as 'patented' I have to smile, that's just not how patents work - would someone patent an entire auto engine? No - they'd patent many aspects of the engine, but to try to cover the exact engine woudl result in a patent so limited that it could be easily avoided by making a minor change, and there the patent would have limited value. Basic patent strategy is to develop a portfolio of patents that together cover the many special features that make something superior to the competition - since the competition can't use any of those features, they'd be at a competitive disadvantage.


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## whineboy

watchcrank_tx said:


> The ETA élaboré grade 2824-2 Damasko use already is likewise only adjusted to 3 positions. I do however wish this movement had targeted top grade instead of élaboré at least in adjustments, even if the overall timekeeping of top grade was out of reach for material reasons.


Sorry for the slow reply - while my DA46 has a plebian elabore 2836-2, ~ a year after purchase it was regulated by WatchMann and now runs as one of my most precise and accurate watches, during 7-10 successive days of wearing it consistently runs +1/day to +3/day - both accurate and precise in my view.

So I agree with others on WUS who point out a lower-grade movement can still be regulated to a high level of accuracy.

I agree with your point that, out of the box, a top grade movement should perform better than a standard/elabore.


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## watchcrank_tx

whineboy said:


> Sorry for the slow reply - while my DA46 has a plebian elabore 2836-2, ~ a year after purchase it was regulated by WatchMann and now runs as one of my most precise and accurate watches, during 7-10 successive days of wearing it consistently runs +1/day to +3/day - both accurate and precise in my view.
> 
> So I agree with others on WUS who point out a lower-grade movement can still be regulated to a high level of accuracy.
> 
> I agree with your point that, out of the box, a top grade movement should perform better than a standard/elabore.


Well, a poorly regulated top grade will be worse for the user than a well regulated standard grade, so my point in wishing for more adjustment would simply be that a well regulated watch should experience less unpredictability from a movement that has been adjusted to more positions prior to regulation. It could be though that without an exotic balance and spring, there are diminishing returns in trying to adjust for more than three positions. Or perhaps job 1 was simply to match élaboré.

In the end I'm just happy Damasko are freeing themselves from the supply crises of recent years while also building a base from which to strike out on their own with future improvements and elaborations. I understand the price shock many are feeling, but price and supply shocks seem to be becoming the norm for those who can't control the supply of the movements they use.

My DA37 was reasonably precise out of the box but always ran notably slow*, 10-15 seconds per day as I recall. Its new owner plans to send it to WatchMann soon, so it's excellent news they take such care in regulation. Élaboré movements are by no means garbage.

* I suspect in some old posts here I praised its accuracy, for to that point I was mostly acquainted with the Seiko 7s &4r, Miyota 8015, low-end Chinese and Russian movements, and a couple of old and tired standard grade ETAs, most of which ran rather miserably.


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## diynor_77

whineboy said:


> Patents on broad concepts are uncommon nowadays except in new areas of technology (think of buckyballs back in the day). In mature mechanical technologies patents often focus on specific aspects of structure (for example, the invention could involve the configuration or materials used for the bearing race, perhaps the process used to form the ceramic balls, or a myriad of other things). Of course I'm hypothesizing and have no knowledge of Damasko's patent strategy.
> To find out what the Damasko patent(s) protect one has to look at the patent claims, not the body of the patent.
> Edit - when people refer to a movement as 'patented' I have to smile, that's just not how patents work - would someone patent an entire auto engine? No - they'd patent many aspects of the engine, but to try to cover the exact engine woudl result in a patent so limited that it could be easily avoided by making a minor change, and there the patent would have limited value. Basic patent strategy is to develop a portfolio of patents that together cover the many special features that make something superior to the competition - since the competition can't use any of those features, they'd be at a competitive disadvantage.


Exactly - the background reason to patent their "different" processes/manufacturing specifics is to be able to maintain their commercial statements claiming their uniqueness. This is the same reason why they are chosing to go the 'in-house' route for simple 3 handers with date.

Are their calibers, manufacturing methods or materials better suited for the application? this is questionable, at best... just marginally and surely not sufficient to back-up the additional cost.

An example of this is the historical use of sapphire ball bearings - this is a solution that can be traced back to the 1960's... at the time, this was sold as an "improvement" due to the improvements in friccion and wear.... if this was so good why this didnt become widespread?The answer is, there was also a significant number of failures caused in the event of shocks (chipped, crack and broken sapphire balls).


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## 1234tuba

Hope this isn’t a dumb question, but if Damasko made this movement with some of the silicon parts (as have been mentioned), would the DK30 then have similar magnetic resistance to that of the DA series? I find I really like the thinner profile of the DS30 over the DA, but just nerding out, I find myself wanting the “full“ tech found in other Damaskos.


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## 1234tuba

So maybe the question really should be “what WOULD a DK30 cost if it had the full anti-mag silicon movement updates (plus longer power reserve)”? The A26 seems nice but not nice enough to justify the increase? But what if you could get all of this at $2k. Then would it justify the price? That, is the question.


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## Kirkawall

1234tuba said:


> So maybe the question really should be "what WOULD a DK30 cost if it had the full anti-mag silicon movement updates (plus longer power reserve)"? The A26 seems nice but not nice enough to justify the increase? But what if you could get all of this at $2k. Then would it justify the price? That, is the question.


Those are great questions. I think the market is now pretty invested in longer PRs and silicon components and is willing to pay a bit more from them. the ETA moments may be flawed but they're time-tested, have a massive user base, and can be very accurate and stable for years. The USP needs to include longer running and antimagnetic features to resonate more convincingly, IMO, especially when your competition now includes some of the Swiss heavyweights.


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## 1234tuba

I don’t know. On one hand, I still think it’s cool that they’re doing this movement, and if it is more inline tech wise with a Top grade movement (plus some other “features”) AND is reliable, then maybe the pricing doesn’t seem that bad. Maybe this is a sign of things to come - maybe ETA 2824/SW200 watches all go up 20% due to availability or manufacturing costs etc. We’re basing the price jump on the current watch costs, but maybe that’s not fair. In an industry I’m more familiar with, I’ve seen some costs go way up in recent weeks for future products. My gut reaction is “woah that’s way too much” but I’m basing that solely on what it would have cost me a year ago, not what everyone else’s product will cost this coming year. What something cost last year is irrelevant if everything else goes up this year (obviously I’m hopeful this isn’t the case). 

Back to my original point/question... We’re mainly having this conversation BECAUSE the A26 Is competing directly with the 2824 version, and therefore price becomes the real sticking point. If this watch was clearly a more unique movement (ie had features like the Si), within reason it almost wouldn’t matter what the cost was because it wouldn’t be a 2824 clone. We’d be debating the merits of that technology and if that tech is worth the price, which to me is really where a brand like Damasko should sit. they have all this cool and interesting technology (including movement technology) - why make a not that extra special movement only to have to compete directly with 2824 in everything except the one thing people really care about (price). 

* PS I’m a novice watch guy so take my opinions with a grain of salt, though I see the industry I work in (and the brand I work for) to have a lot of similarities...


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## dpfaber

Who wasn't disappointed when Sinn moved (downgraded!) to the Selitta movements? That would have been Damasko's only other option, and they say quite publicly (without calling them out by name specifically) that the Selitta could not meet their quality standards. For me, a watch that can't tell the time is not worth the trouble. If the A25/26 comes out of the box with higher overall accuracy (as I suspect they will!) and increased reliability (as already shown in this discussion re: hand winding), then I will be happy with the added cost. The new K series watches will save me a bundle compared against the cost of ORIS, Tudor, Omega, or Rolex in-house movements which also offer only "nominal" (but important!) improvement over ETA. Perhaps Sinn is doing a decent job with the SW200 movement, but I'm not convinced that any Selitta-based watch is worth the $1,270 that Sinn is charging for a 556 now.


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## Batboy

@dpfaber What makes Sellita movements worse quality than ETA?


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## dpfaber

Batboy said:


> @dpfaber What makes Sellita movements worse quality than ETA?


This topic has been discussed at length on WUS forums and elsewhere. Many experts will tell you that current Selitta movements are just as good as the original ETAs which they copy, while just as many others will say that Selitta movements require more frequent servicing and use inferior parts or assemblies. Absolutely no one will claim that Selitta is a better movement than ETA, so it is either inferior or, at the very best, it may be "as good" which, to me, still makes it a disappointing replacement. Sinn made made their choice due to expediency and economics, they most certainly did not choose Selitta movements in an attempt to improve their watches and I cannot help but feel that the change is negative, either in real mechanical terms or at least subjectively. You may disagree, but only by claiming that you don't really care who manufactured the movement in your thousand-plus dollar watch. I do, and I would prefer a genuine ETA movement over a clone unless the copy can demonstrate improvements with no loss in quality, a claim Selitta cannot make.
I cannot give more expert testimony than what you may find here: 








General Consensus on Sellita movement vs ETA?


What is the general consensus on sellita movement from the watchmaker community? I am particularly interested in the SW200 and the SW500 versus the ETA counterparts, assuming the same basic grade (lowest grade). Have anyone taken them apart to compare? thanks




www.watchuseek.com


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## Batboy

Thanks @dpfaber, it's a valuable and informative thread  about the general consensus. Compared to Sellita, now I can see more advantages of Damasko's in-house movement.

Also, I agree with @benny that Damasko's hand-winding upgrade is a big deal. Many of us like to wind our watches, and the new Damasko movement solves the problem of damaging ETA movements through hand-winding.


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## mythless

Batboy said:


> Also, I agree with @benny that Damasko's hand-winding upgrade is a big deal. Many of us like to wind our watches, and the new Damasko movement solves the problem of damaging ETA movements through hand-winding.


I am no watchmaker nor do I tinker with movements much. But, Archer who I think is on this forum, the Rolex forum and on various others is a Canadian watchmaker and have posted many pictures and description on the 2824 and sw200-1 From his experience both are good movements, however, the Sellita tends to cost more to service if parts are needed because parts cost more, from his experience.

With regards to the handwinding of the ETA, hand winding doesn't damage the movement. The reason why it can "fail" is because the reversing wheel gets gummed up, which is a sign that the movements needs to be serviced.

Having the "magic lever" doesn't make the movement less susceptible to wear and tear either. As the tooth that ratchets the wheel can wear down over time, again from his experience with Seiko movements.

All in all, it's a give and take situation.


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## JJ312

I noticed the new A26 Damasko movement has only 20 jewels compared to the 25 jewels of an ETA 2824. That seems like a substantially lower number especially considering the A26 was based on or highly influenced by the ETA. Anyone know exactly where in the A26 movement these five jewels disappeared and what impact this might have (if any)?


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## whineboy

JJ312 said:


> I noticed the new A26 Damasko movement has only 20 jewels compared to the 25 jewels of an ETA 2824. That seems like a substantially lower number especially considering the A26 was based on or highly influenced by the ETA. Anyone know exactly where in the A26 movement these five jewels disappeared and what impact this might have (if any)?


Perhaps in the automatic works? The pawl winding system does away with reverser wheels. The 2824-2 data sheets would show the jewel locations.

Edit: yep, from Wikipedia:


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## JJ312

whineboy said:


> The pawl winding system does away with reverser wheels.


Interesting, thanks for sharing this!


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## Racer88

This is the Damasko I'm digging. I'd add the green second hand option, if / when I get one. 

I'm wishing it was a tiny bit bigger than 39-mm, though. I've acclimated to bigger watches. I love the white on black high contrast dial.


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## chiron93

Just noticed that there is no 'Three hand models' section in Damasko website anymore.
Guess now they have completely transitioned from DS30 to DK30/31 (these show up in 'in-house movement' model section)?


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## 1234tuba

Damasko just posted on Instagram about moving forward with in-house movements in the model lines that were removed from the site, and about some upcoming new releases to come out in 2021. I know this was widely known, but I don’t think they’ve made it official yet on their end. Of course no real details, but hopefully this suggests we’re not too far away from seeing some new designs.


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## StufflerMike

1234tuba said:


> Damasko just posted on Instagram about moving forward with in-house movements in the model lines that were removed from the site, and about some upcoming new releases to come out in 2021. I know this was widely known, but I don't think they've made it official yet on their end. Of course no real details, but hopefully this suggests we're not too far away from seeing some new designs.


They made it official here: DAMASKO Updates


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