# CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN



## Ginault (Jul 8, 2010)

5 years ago we launched our first product Ginault BM1, it was a sterile Submariner homage watch. The release had a mild success in the short period that it was sold. The BM1 hit certain members' taste palates and at the same time missed many members' to buy list.

However, the infant venture to start a watch company with the goal to have everything excluding the movement made and assembled domestically came to a sudden halt. The Swiss movement giants became very strict to whom they supply their movements to and coupled with a steep price hike choking the supply. It basically meant a death sentence for a micro brand like ours.

We had to put the project on halt and re-consider the options. We entertained the idea of using Chinese clones but they were just not stable nor consistent enough.

Then a wild idea came to us. We wanted to do something that has not been attempted by small independent watch companies for a long time. We thought maybe we can produce our own movement parts domestically.

We went back to the drawing board and back to the basics. To make this in a reality consists two parts, movement part production and movement assembly. Although these are two totally different realms, our team has the knowledge and know-how of both. What we do not have is the resource to invest in exotic and capital heavy equipments in making these parts. But we kind of have an idea where to look for them.

A lot of good folks in the country have the right equipment, manufacturing skills, and know-how in making specific part for the watch movement. They were just not in the watchmaking industry. During the past 5 or so years, our challenges were, to find them, convince them to take on our small quantity and yet supper anal and annoying orders due to the high precision requirement, to assemble these parts into functioning movements and finally to test and tune these movements in house.

*The Gut*[/FONT]












Ginault Caliber 7275 is an reproduction of the Swiss ETA 2824-2. Caliber 7275 shares the same original Eterna design with the Swiss Sellita SW200-1 and Swiss Technology Production STP1-11.

The Objectives blueprinting the Ginault 7275 caliber:
1.Cannon Pinion has to be 0.50mm taller than the original H2 cannon pinion design:










Many of our original designs are diver's watches with forged hour markers riveted on the dial. The cannon pinions have to be at least 0.50mm taller than the standard issued H2 height. However, being a micro brand, there is no way the Swiss giants and the Chinese state owned movement factories will even be bothered by our custom order let alone the small order quantity.

2. The consistency and performance of the movement:










Swiss ETA 2824 movement although not the most accurate movement, it is known for its consistency and durability. This decades old design has proven being a reliable work horse in the world of horology.

Why not use Tianjin Seagull ST2130 or Hangzhou 6300? We found one down side of the Chinese clones is consistency. In a random sample batch, we found the performances of the blank movements range from a wild variety. The durability of the movements were also in question. So if we build them by ourselves and assemble them in our controlled environment, it will be easier to keep quality in check and then to control the consistency of our calibers performance.

3. Being independent from the Swiss Giant's monopoly choke:

Much like the US rubber crisis in the 40s, Ginault faced the supply shortage and price hike on the Swiss made movements. We knew if we can realize a self sustaining supply of movement parts we no longer have to be dedicated by the Swiss.

However, there are still some parts absent of domestic supplier. Those parts are the hairspring, the mainspring, the red synthetic sapphire crystals also known as jewels, and the shock absorber.

*Wang Jia Ling Shock Absorber*










The three leafs cherry blossom shaped shock absorber is Chinese. It is Wang Jia Ling shock absorber. It costs about the same as the Swiss Incabloc. We opt for WJL for one specific reason - it is designed to stabilize the slight unbalance oscillator movement caused by not perfectly matching the hairspring and escapement wheel. Hence, helps the caliber keep more accurate time and deliver better performance.

Today, almost all Chinese made mechanical movements use WJL shock absorber and even some Swiss customized calibers have WJL shock absorbers in them. It happens for a reason.

Dr. Wang originally designed the shock absorber in 1985. He was so ahead of his time before the Chinese mechanical watch industry boom. In fact, his design worked too well that in ETA's performance chart, it could turn a Standard Grade movement blank into a decoration worthy Elabore Grade caliber. In plain English, WJL shock absorber brings normal to good, and it brings excellence from good. That is why later in 1986, the Japanese watchmaking giant adopted Dr. Wang's three leaf cherry bloom shock absorber design in almost all their mechanical product lines.

The Tune In Process










Once a completed Caliber 7275 is encased in the watch, it will then go through a 6 weeks journey on our automatic winder to simulate real world use. Our watchmakers time each one of them every 7 days, then give each one of them a slight tweak if necessary to make the caliber to run even more accurately until it reaches as close as to 0 in the end of the journey. The mark "X" means the "average daily rate". The Swiss COSC standard of this particular measurement is +6 / -4.

We keep each measurement log in an excel file. When a Ginault timepiece is sold, we will provide you a copy of the measurement log with the caliber's serial number, the actual power reserve tested, and the last measurement date printed on the copy.

*Craftsmanship & Built Quality*










Many people would ask "there are so many Submariners homages out there with their own flavor and design, why isn't Ginault's Ocean Rover following suit? The answer to the question is simple. It is actually very hard to make a classic 16610 Submariner homage so close to the original blueprint. The level of technical and production maturity required to pull this off is beyond many people's expectation.

Being a Ginaulti we love to tackle the hard question first. Ocean-Rover is a product line to showcase the experts and Submariner lovers in the horology world of what we can achieve. The idea is to take on all the production challenges that most homage Submariners face and strike them head on. We decided not to take an easy way out by changing out hard to make parts with simple and cost effective substitutes.

Another question often asked is "Submariner homages have been done and done. There are countless micro and even well established brands doing the same thing. What could make Ginault stand out the crowd?"

We know we probably would score a zero on design input for the Ocean-Rover series but we know we are going to hit the bulls eyes when it comes the build qualities of our watches.

We known an equal quality built to the original 5 digit Submariner homage that delivers the same balance in aesthetic, performance and durability, and beauty in craftsmanship will appeal to those of whom seeking for the best Submariner alternative.

*316L Stainless Steel*










Our machinists in fact did not descend from the Swiss watchmaking background. But we have all packed decades of experiences when it comes to industrial design/production under our belts. We often mock ourselves "rusted people" because most of us came from a time and place where tools and machines were our childhood toys. This is how we make the watchcase. We first lathe them one by one from a premium US Steel rod.

Then we let the CNC machine center to give each disc a good 2 hours milling to shape the watchcase blank.










After milling, there is another hour of dirty and dusty brushing and polishing to transform the blank to a beautiful men's jewelry.










The bezel is a tricky part to make. These fine internal gears, which functions stops when turning the bezel, can not be lathed or milled. The only proper way to make these gears is called "broaching". We do not have machines or skills to make them.

However, "broaching" is a manufacturing technique that is a must have know-how for gun barrel makers. We have more than a handful of talented gun makers in this country who's got the right equipment and skill set to make a part that is this delicate, accurate, and durable to withstand tens of thousands turns.

*Ginault 94530G Bracelet
*











When we launched the BM1, many members wish that it also came with a stainless bracelet. We heard you and we made it happen.

Ginault 94530G is a solid linked bracelet. To produce a solid stainless steel bracelet this beautiful would require hundreds of hours of experience and the skilled hands jointing each link, brushing, polishing, and cleaning.











There are 4 permanently jointed solid links and 2 removable solid links on each section of the bracelet. An 8.1 inch wrist could fit in nicely with all links attached.

We also plan on making a hollow link version of the bracelet for those of you who has the weight reduction requirement in mind.

*What's in the Box*











If stainless steel bracelet is not of your taste. We added in a complementary pair of fine quality handmade Zulu Nato straps.

*The Crystals*











This is Ginault 30.4mm Dome Crystal. It's from the best supplier in the country. Albeit Ocean-Rover 181070GSLN is a Rolex Submariner 16610 homage. We did not want to take the shortcut and put an aftermarket 25-295-C, Rolex's signature crystal with a cyclops a 3 o'clock on it.

We want to bring something sensational, something nostalgia to Ocean-Rover's owners. Thus we came up with Ginault 30.4mm Dome crystal. It is made of corundum, the second hardest material next to diamond.

In the designing phase, we also wanted to make sure Ginault Ocean-Rover and any of our future models equipped with 30.4 Dome crystal to withstand the extreme water pressure while being worn under water.

By increasing the thickness of Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal from 1.8mm to 3.1mm, plus with the computer aided design software calculated the surface curvature, the maximum depth Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal can withstand is 1,220 meters underwater in computer simulations. However, the actual testing equipment our supplier has could only simulate water pressure up to 1,000 feet. Nonetheless, Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal's real world test in our supplier's testing chamber went with flying colors at 1,000 feet.

Until we conduct our tests in a more sophisticated institute, we put 1,000 ft / 300 m on the face of the watch.

For those tactically aware members, unlike Rolex 25-295-C, which has quite a direct light reflection point, we specifically designed Ginault 30.4 Dome with almost no direct light reflection point. Slap on the Nato strap this watch won't become an object exposing your tactical positions under a bright sunlight in the open field.

*The Pearl*











We believe if a diver's watch has a soul, it must dwell in the luminous indicator on the bezel. The quality has to match with other parts of the watch. From the same supplier of our crystal, the luminous indicator is also made of corundum.











We set the corundum indicators one by one on rodico, apply luminescent material carefully in each one of them the same way we do on our forged hour markers, then hard pressed them in the cup shaped holders made of german silver along with the aluminum bezels.

*The Watch Face*











*Gold Sand Lume
*











An homage should never be just a lookalike or a replica. The makers of an homage watch should bring value, taste, and innovation to the classics.

We have heard of the legend of a luminescent material that is not a product from the Swiss RC Tritec, the lume company, and is so expensive only the top antique clock and pocket watch restorers could afford and would be interested in using on their masterpieces.

We travelled to Alaska and to the very southern tip of Argentina in search for this luminescent material in order to bring the vintageness and class to Ginault Ocean-Rover.

*The High Gloss Enamel Dial*

Dial creation in the process of producing a watch has its own special pedigree. A dial not only represents the identify of a watch, it is also what connects the movement, the hands, and the functions of the watch to the wearer. It not only reads time, it also gives the final finished touch of the overall aesthetic and balance of the unit.

Creating a high gloss enamel finished surface with perfectly forged, angled, and finished hour markers take nothing less than a true craftsman with the sum of many skills calling for both great expertise, decades of experiences and know how in the making of a single perfect dial.

Looking around, only a handful horological titans use high gloss enamel dials with forged, mirror polished hour markers in their product lines. The craftsmanship and cost required in making this kind of dial post as a barrier for many watchmaking companies to enter the world of "Haute Horology". In fact it is rare to find a watchmaking company like Rolex which controls in-house all the aspects of dial creation, from design to production.

Luckily along the way we were introduced to a master dial maker in the United Kingdom who has worked for a famous Swiss watch company specializing in dial production to help us realize this dream of creating a top of the line classic Submariner 16610 homage dial.











Enamel is an opaque substance that is a type of silicon. After solidification in high temperature, it produces uneven cracks and tiny apertures that look like scratches or flaws on the dial. Only through years of restless practices, can we present to you the almost perfect, high gloss enamel dial in deep black.

When we were first introduced to our dial maker, we did not possess much knowledge about the differences in forged hour makers. Looking across the market it is not hard to find that only a handful of brands have forged hour markers on the dials. They all look the same right? But truth to be told devil is in the detail. What the difference is between an artisan made hour marker vs a production line hour marker is hard to explain by words. It is more of an experience. Have you ever noticed when you turn your wrist over to look at time some watches just don't give you that pop, and on the other hand the few elite makers' watches reveal otherwise.

*Forged, Mirror Polished Hour Markers*





















The secret lies in the finest details of the way the blank hour marker is forged and shaped. We encourage members to take a look of Ginault's hour markers with a loupe. Another important step is how the hour marker was polished from the blanks. Only through arduous polishing by hand each hour marker can then have the shine, the reflections of light, and that polished uneven deformation on each corner of the forged hour marker brought to life.

The Figures



















40mm in Diameter, 50mm from Lug to Lug, 45mm from Bezel to Crown, 15.6mm Bottom to Top, Distance between Lugs: 20.05mm, Solid End Link width: 20.03mm

Thanks for reading.
J.M.
12/21/2016

We understand many members are interested and would like to add a Ginault Ocean-Rover to their collection. We also understand before you can pull the trigger many of you would love to see more pictures and reviews by other members.

That's why we are ready to prepare a special 55% off offer if you can agree to share a write up (at least 350 words) with pictures on WUS or an "open box" clip on Youtube with you narrating your thoughts and opinion after you receive our watches.

Use coupon code: openbox55 (limted 10 use) Please provide us with your WUS/Youtube username in the comment section during checkout.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We have noticed that Ginault Ocean Rover is inevitably compared to many other more affordable homage makes.

We truly do want the chance for members to see the built quality in our products and the value Ocean-Rover brings.

If you are an owner of one or more Submariner homage watches and are ready to add a Ginault Ocean-Rover to your list, by agreeing to write a detailed comparison reviews on Ocean-Rover V.S. your current Submariner homages on the forums we will offer you a 60% off discount code for the purchase.

Please email us at "[email protected]" and let us know what Submariner homage you own for this special 60% off coupon.

Ginault.com

Sincerely

John McMurtry
Product Manager
Ginault
[email protected]


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## Crezo (Apr 3, 2012)

Wow... there's attention to detail, and then there's this!

Looks stunning, and with that discount a very good price.

Best of luck with the company, a stunning watch.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Like the sword hour hand. Would be interested in a lumed bezel, sword sweep second hand not red and micro-adjustable clasp

How thick is it?

What is the Beat rate of the movement?

So is the movement assembled in USA of Chinese parts including but not limited to the hairspring, mainspring, jewels and shock absorber parts?

Is the bracelet clasp a micro-adjustable divers clasp?

$779US plus shipping?


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## johnnmiller1 (Dec 2, 2011)

Nice photos but methinks they spin like a self-winding rotor.


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## vintageguy (Mar 22, 2009)

meh


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

One detailed and solid post.
Taking a second look at those specs.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Wonder if they took a look at the competition










Fully lumed bezel
Very thin (11mm I think), 
300m WR
Sapphire
28,800 beat per second
Sword sweep second hand
Much lower price


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## Lost Cosmonaut (Apr 14, 2009)

I like the fancy words to describe regular stuff. "German Silver". "Corundum". I kind of like it as a vintage sub knockoff but I think I'd rather have a Steinhart. I do prefer the sword hands and domed "Corundum" and patina lume, but the billboard is a lot even for me and I don't mind billboards. The name also reminds me far too much of cheap Chinese knockoff brands.

At $500-ish I'd probably be interested.


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## N.Caffrey (Dec 29, 2011)

Really good post and a good discount too. I love the Lume markers as well


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## marked (Jul 31, 2006)

What a load of.... Hyperbole.

these guys are selling snake oil in my opinion. Trying to read between the lines and garner some factual data out of this is almost impossible. I've concluded its a Chinese 2824 clone in which they make some parts and then assemble and test themselves.... Why not say as much? What is all this about luminescent material and corundum.... Scratching my head...

if they just kept it honest and simple and kept the price competitive, they might be more successful. I actually like the look of the watch a lot, with the exception of too much text on the dial.


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## Lost Cosmonaut (Apr 14, 2009)

marked said:


> What a load of.... Hyperbole.
> 
> these guys are selling snake oil in my opinion. Trying to read between the lines and garner some factual data out of this is almost impossible. I've concluded its a Chinese 2824 clone in which they make some parts and then assemble and test themselves.... Why not say as much? What is all this about luminescent material and corundum.... Scratching my head...
> 
> if they just kept it honest and simple and kept the price competitive, they might be more successful. I actually like the look of the watch a lot, with the exception of too much text on the dial.


Yeah, there's an absolute truckload of hyperbole and throwing out technical words to sound better than they are. Corundum is just a fancy name for Sapphire, for instance. Naming the movement your own "calibre" is an age old way of making it sound more fancy. This is Invicta level marketing.


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## Ginault (Jul 8, 2010)

*The Figures*






















40mm in Diameter, 50mm from Lug to Lug, 45mm from Bezel to Crown, 15.6mm Bottom to Top, Distance between Lugs: 20.05mm, Solid End Link width: 20.03mm


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Meh... another Sub clone.


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## Ginault (Jul 8, 2010)

We understand many members are interested and would like to add a Ginault Ocean-Rover to their collection. We also understand before you can pull the trigger many of you would love to see more pictures and reviews by other members. 


That's why we are ready to prepare a special 55% off offer if you can agree to share a write up (at least 350 words) with pictures on WUS or an "open box" clip on Youtube with you narrating your thoughts and opinion after you receive our watches. 


Use coupon code: openbox55 (limted 10 use) Please provide us with your WUS/Youtube username in the comment section during checkout.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We have noticed that Ginault Ocean Rover is inevitably compared to many other more affordable homage makes. 


We truly do want the chance for members to see the built quality in our products and the value Ocean-Rover brings.


If you are an owner of one or more Submariner homage watches and are ready to add a Ginault Ocean-Rover to your list, by agreeing to write a detailed comparison reviews on Ocean-Rover V.S. your current Submariner homages on the forums we will offer you a 60% off discount code for the purchase.


Please email us at "[email protected]" and let us know what Submariner homage you own for this special 60% off coupon.


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Meh I feel like I'm being patronized 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't really get all the negativity/sarcasm here. To me it looks like a lot of thought and effort has gone into this one. No need to get into the jaded homage debate because there are no claims made otherwise by the maker. To me it looks like a beautifully executed and finished sub homage. If questions linger about the origins of the movement, I am sure Ginault will step up to answer them.

Yankee - be interesting to hear Doc's take on these relative to the NTH line. It would appear to me that the level of finishing is visibly higher on the Ginault. That isn't meant to belittle the NTH product line in any way.


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## EA-Sport (Dec 23, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Wonder if they took a look at the competition
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey that pic looks familiar...wait that's my own wrist lol...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Had a Steinhart ocean 1.
Loved it. Hated the straight end links, which attributed to it never fitting well.
With those discounts, gona be watching.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Knoc said:


> Had a Steinhart ocean 1.
> Loved it. Hated the straight end links, which attributed to it never fitting well.
> With those discounts, gona be watching.


I had the previous gen Ocean One Vintage Red. Still regret selling it - especially after seeing the horrible new muted grey dial colour. My main dislike was the very flat case. It would appear that this one has a similar design, albeit at 40mm vs 42mm. Like the sword hands, and red second hand. I think the finishing on the Ginault clearly exceeds the entry level Steinharts, but someone really should buy one and confirm that.


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> I had the previous gen Ocean One Vintage Red. Still regret selling it - especially after seeing the horrible new muted grey dial colour. My main dislike was the very flat case. It would appear that this one has a similar design, albeit at 40mm vs 42mm. Like the sword hands, and red second hand. I think the finishing on the Ginault clearly exceeds the entry level Steinharts, but someone really should buy one and confirm that.


I'm there with you man.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Hyperbolic claims, ridiculous MSRP offset by equally ridiculous discounts (upto 65% now?)... Ginault guys must've stolen the playbook straight from Invicta. :-d


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Hyperbolic claims, ridiculous MSRP offset by equally ridiculous discounts (upto 65% now?)... Ginault guys must've stolen the playbook straight from Invicta. :-d


I agree that MSRP is out of line, but it's not even on the same planet as Invicta marketing (if it were, the MSRP would be $6k, lol). That claim could also be characterised as "hyperbolic". :rodekaart

Perhaps closer to Hexa's handling of the Osprey, which was inflated by likely 40%. I didn't see a 65% discount. Sold all my sub homages so can't leverage the 60% offer. I would add that plenty of crowd-sourced and other pre-order micro options show a significant discount vs "later MSRP" too. It's all a game. At under $600 with best discount on offer, and given the finishing and at least partial in-house movement, this is not a terrible deal at all.


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## Casanova Jr. (Oct 6, 2010)

seems a very built watch and I appreciate the effort to fine tuning the movt, unfortunately I do not like the writing on the dial too many fancy words, a sterile or less cluttered dial would have been a better choice imo


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Casanova Jr. said:


> seems a very built watch and I appreciate the effort to fine tuning the movt, unfortunately I do not like the writing on the dial too many fancy words, a sterile or less cluttered dial would have been a better choice imo


I agree with you on that. Less text would also help to differentiate it from original sub at least a little.


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## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

Decent enough looking watch. I wish them well.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Yankee - be interesting to hear Doc's take on these relative to the NTH line. It would appear to me that the level of finishing is visibly higher on the Ginault. That isn't meant to belittle the NTH product line in any way.











Nice try.

The last two times I spoke up in my own defense in this forum, I was accused of trashing a competitor (I wasn't), and threatening a reviewer (nope, wasn't doing that either).

No further comment.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Yankee - be interesting to hear Doc's take on these relative to the NTH line. It would appear to me that the level of finishing is visibly higher on the Ginault. That isn't meant to belittle the NTH product line in any way.


The Janis brands, Lew and Huey and NTH, are both straight to the point. The movement is the movement. The crystal is the crystal. There's no hyperbole, no BS, and no 60% off coupon codes for reviews. Comparing the ethos of Ginault with Janis brands is to say the least pretty easy, and I can absolutely tell you which one I would rather buy. And, in fact, which one I will be buying.

As for the level of finishing comment, based on the creative embellishments on the rest of their post I'm hesitant to make a call either way...... It isn't hard to make photos tell a story that is a substantial deviation from the truth, and it would hardly surprise me to find that the finishing on this one is really just "meh" based on the specs which are equally "meh" once the high proof bovine excretion polish wears off.


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## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

"American clone"???? What does this mean?

I can tell you it doesn't mean it was made in America, because this would be an incredible feat in horological manufacturing and I'm sure the world would like to know. And it would be incredibly expensive. Just a little confusing...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

docvail said:


> View attachment 10280386
> 
> 
> Nice try.
> ...


Son? Likely old enough to be your father. There's no "bait" here. If the accusations are empty then don't sweat it so much.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> The Janis brands, Lew and Huey and NTH, are both straight to the point. The movement is the movement. The crystal is the crystal. There's no hyperbole, no BS, and no 60% off coupon codes for reviews. Comparing the ethos of Ginault with Janis brands is to say the least pretty easy, and I can absolutely tell you which one I would rather buy. And, in fact, which one I will be buying.
> 
> As for the level of finishing comment, based on the creative embellishments on the rest of their post I'm hesitant to make a call either way...... It isn't hard to make photos tell a story that is a substantial deviation from the truth, and it would hardly surprise me to find that the finishing on this one is really just "meh" based on the specs which are equally "meh" once the high proof bovine excretion polish wears off.


The "creative embellishments" don't have any bearing on the finishing level of the watch. Zilch. It's marketing hype and nothing more - and I would add it would also seem that something may have been lost in translation as well. To my eye the Ginault looks a little nicer. What next? I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter? Buy what you want - just don't come on here and tell people what they are and are not entitled to judge. The man put up some pretty magnified, close-in photos and those don't typically lie.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> The "creative embellishments" don't have any bearing on the finishing level of the watch. Zilch. It's marketing hype and nothing more - and I would add it would also seem that something may have been lost in translation as well. To my eye the Ginault looks a little nicer. What next? I am not entitled to an opinion on the matter? Buy what you want - just don't come on here and tell people what they are and are not entitled to judge. The man put up some pretty magnified, close-in photos and those don't typically lie.


Aw heck..... I've never told anybody they aren't allowed to be wrong!! I was just saying that I don't think that it'll look as good in the metal as it does in those product snaps! Unless I've been drinking more than I think I have I can't find where I said or came within a mile of implying that you weren't entitled to your thoughts?

I do though have to say that companies who creatively embellish tend to be like people who creatively embellish..... when push comes to shove, or in this case when the watch is in hand, they typically come up short.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Son? Likely old enough to be your father. There's no "bait" here. If the accusations are empty then don't sweat it so much.


I wasn't calling you "son". That's just the meme - it's about not taking the bait when people try to set up comparisons, and want me to comment.

I'm not going to comment about this watch, or get into comparisons between it and mine. If people like this watch, and think it's worth the asking price, they should buy it, and I hope they like it. If the product is good and the company backs it up, I wish them nothing but success.

As for the accusations, I tend not to respond to very much, and for the most part, I don't sweat it at all. I'm fortunate to have many happy customers who'll speak up in my defense. Even so, you may understand it's hard to sit quiet and watch keyboard commandos lie about you.


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## Nalco (Dec 6, 2015)

A simple question in my mind: If they can manufacture the case and assemble movements in house, why homage? Just launch sth authentic and original, and deserve a wild applause!


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

Large swings in opinion here, but here's my though. I know it is a sub homage but look at Steinhart no one complains about them. I was intrigued about the 60% offer since I do have a few sub styles lying around and I've had my fair share of Steinharts, Squales. However, I did have second thoughts after seeing the $1299 price. I do have to say that the pictures do seem to show that a lot of thought and fit and finishing was done to the watch. The American in House movement does sound interesting + I'm guessing it is "Made in USA" I mean look at Hexa or Lum Tec + who ever else that advertise that they are Assembled in the USA does usually ask for a higher price vs Asian watches.

I was going to compare it to these 2 that I have


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

AVS- Was thinking about this too. More so after the motivation to do a write up and have always wanted to take a spin at a well executed sub homage. I think your comparison would be pretty interesting.
Im still on the fence with comparing it to the MKII Nassau and the OWC 9411 NC - not sub homages, but solid micros. 
Still taking a close look at these.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

It looks lovely and I'm sure the Ginault have put lots of effort into these watches, but TBH if I was in the market for another submariner clone I'd go for a Parnis and save myself a heap of cash, heck I could spend a bit more and get a Steinhart and still be saving and get a Swiss movement and a well made product. If I wanted something more like a homage I'd go for Armida or NTH. Oh wait I did that already! 

Too much blurb written which makes me feel like they are trying too hard here. That and the huge price drop for writing a review makes me think they haven't been a runaway success so far........


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## Casanova Jr. (Oct 6, 2010)

the only problem I see here is the RIDICOLOUS msrp price and all those redundant words used to describe their watch, hand built in america, really? a simple made in Usa would work too, kinetic continuous, submersible maritime.. jeez what the hell those words even mean? they look to me, put together randomly, to fill in some estate to get the 5/6 lines. if you come on a watch board with this kind of approach, where most of us are well educated about watches, you will be expecting some harsh critics, no doubt about it. Hexa did the same mistake completely inflating their msrp and they were badly criticized hopefully this brand will learn from others' mistakes. That being said I like overall the watch not their approach and inflated price


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

I like the look of the watch. I bought one with the discount, expect a detailed review.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

docvail said:


> I wasn't calling you "son". That's just the meme - it's about not taking the bait when people try to set up comparisons, and want me to comment.
> 
> I'm not going to comment about this watch, or get into comparisons between it and mine. If people like this watch, and think it's worth the asking price, they should buy it, and I hope they like it. If the product is good and the company backs it up, I wish them nothing but success.
> 
> As for the accusations, I tend not to respond to very much, and for the most part, I don't sweat it at all. I'm fortunate to have many happy customers who'll speak up in my defense. Even so, you may understand it's hard to sit quiet and watch keyboard commandos lie about you.


Selecting a graphic with the word "son" in it is inherently condescending. I think you know that. I didn't "bait" you. That has a malicious connotation that is out of line here.

Pretty sure I had your back on as many baseless accusations against you that I saw. Not out of any loyalty to you or your brand but because I despise seeing garbage like that unfairly propogated against people on public forums.

I do think you have to watch your step a little as a fellow micro owner/retailer on the forum, but you have opined on other brands/products. Why would this one be different? Because you see deficiencies and don't want that misconstrued as an attack on a competitor? I really don't see too many negatives on this watch from the description (grandiose semantics aside) or the macro shots, and some (IMO) are basing their perspectives purely on the marketing hype, which clearly fell a little flat, but can hardly be correlated directly with the quality of the product.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> I like the look of the watch. I bought one with the discount, expect a detailed review.


Looking forward to your thoughts on the watch. I am still kicking it around. Never fully satisfied with any sub homage I have owned (the Steinhart and multiple Armida A2's were close), so this has my interest. 40mm will wear a little on the small side for me but it is more faithful to the original, which is important to many people.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

aegir said:


> I like the look of the watch. I bought one with the discount, expect a detailed review.


Please do. Tell us all about how "kinetic continuous submersible maritime precision chronometer" works out for you. Don't forget to compare the brightness of the lume made of luminous sand from the ends of the Earth to Seiko lume. I am still trying to figure out how adding some custom parts to Chinese ETA clone makes the movement American. :think:


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Oh, yeah. And Ginault needs to fire the idiot who wrote the marketing spiel. Did Ginault really think people won't see through BS mumbo jumbo and buzz words? Do we look that stupid?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> Aw heck..... I've never told anybody they aren't allowed to be wrong!! I was just saying that I don't think that it'll look as good in the metal as it does in those product snaps! Unless I've been drinking more than I think I have I can't find where I said or came within a mile of implying that you weren't entitled to your thoughts?
> 
> I do though have to say that companies who creatively embellish tend to be like people who creatively embellish..... when push comes to shove, or in this case when the watch is in hand, they typically come up short.


So I am wrong and you haven't even handled the watch in person?? Your line of attack just gets better, lol.

Prove to any of us that there is a direct correlation between the marketing hype (which was clearly both overblown and suffered from some translation "issues") and the quality of the watch. Don't just take the low road and assume the worst. IMO that is simply being negative and is unwarranted. I have done a bit of research and the company's first model (a sterile homage) was quite well received and I don't think I am overstepping by suggesting that this one is considerably nicer. Had the press on the original model been very poor I think there might be more justification for <cautious> skepticism here. We can all read through the hot air of a marketing spiel and assess the product objectively, right? Check out any number of micro products on Kickstarter and tell me that ain't so.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Please do. Tell us all about how "kinetic continuous submersible maritime precision chronometer" works out for you. Don't forget to compare the brightness of the lume made of luminous sand from the ends of the Earth to Seiko lume. I am still trying to figure out how adding some custom parts to Chinese ETA clone makes the movement American. :think:


Why would you care about his review? You made your mind up already based purely on the semantics used in the OP and clearly have no shred of objectivity left on the matter. Did Ginault do something to you personally at some point?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Oh, yeah. And Ginault needs to fire the idiot who wrote the marketing spiel. Did Ginault really think people won't see through BS mumbo jumbo and buzz words? Do we look that stupid?


Or - you could do exactly that (i.e . "see through BS mumbo jumbo and buzz words") and talk about the product itself. Hate homages? Hate Ginault from a bad trip in a previous life? Clearly something is amiss here for you beyond a suspect choice of words in a description of their project.


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## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

aegir said:


> I like the look of the watch. I bought one with the discount, expect a detailed review.


Anxious to hear your thoughts. Looks well made but I do agree with some of the comments here they seem to be trying a bit too hard.

And for my taste I agree with Hornet a steinhart with swiss movement at $350 or a parnis seems like the way to go to add a sub clone and will give you a lot of extra cash to add something else.

yadda yadda tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> So I am wrong and you haven't even handled the watch in person?? Your line of attack just gets better, lol.
> 
> Prove to any of us that there is a direct correlation between the marketing hype (which was clearly both overblown and suffered from some translation "issues") and the quality of the watch. Don't just take the low road and assume the worst. IMO that is simply being negative and is unwarranted. I have done a bit of research and the company's first model (a sterile homage) was quite well received and I don't think I am overstepping by suggesting that this one is considerably nicer. Had the press on the original model been very poor I think there might be more justification for <cautious> skepticism here. We can all read through the hot air of a marketing spiel and assess the product objectively, right? Check out any number of micro products on Kickstarter and tell me that ain't so.


Feels like your defending this quite aggressively fella! Aside from the marketing hyperbole and that it's another sub clone, it feels like there are a fair number of unanswered questions.......


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Not my personal cuppa cha, however it takes a huge amount of effort to get to this point in anything pertaining to watches, so good luck with this.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hikeNbike said:


> Anxious to hear your thoughts. Looks well made but I do agree with some of the comments here they seem to be trying a bit too hard.
> 
> And for my taste I agree with Hornet a steinhart with swiss movement at $350 or a parnis seems like the way to go to add a sub clone and will give you a lot of extra cash to add something else.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


It is clear they are trying hard. But it seems they put quite a bit into this one, over a significant period of time, and want to realise a positive outcome. Add to that concerns along the way that the company might have been defunct, and it is likely they feel they have a fair bit of ground to make up. There is no doubt things could (and should) have been worded differently.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SHANE 1000 said:


> Not my personal cuppa cha, however it takes a huge amount of effort to get to this point in anything pertaining to watches, so good luck with this.


The correct attitude. Well spoken. |>


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> It is clear they are trying hard. But it seems they put quite a bit into this one, over a significant period of time, and want to realise a positive outcome.


Yes, they are trying hard. But I'm not sure there is the evidence to show they've put a lot of effort in; unless you just take their statements at face value.......


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Why would you care about his review? You made your mind up already based purely on the semantics used in the OP and clearly have no shred of objectivity left on the matter. Did Ginault do something to you personally at some point?





Radar1 said:


> Or - you could do exactly that (i.e . "see through BS mumbo jumbo and buzz words") and talk about the product itself. Hate homages? Hate Ginault from a bad trip in a previous life? Clearly something is amiss here for you beyond a suspect choice of words in a description of their project.


"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Keep up the defense. Maybe Ginault will notice and send you a free "kinetic continuous submersible maritime precision chronometer" in appreciation. :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> The correct attitude. Well spoken. |>


Oh, now you are the arbiter of proper behavior? :roll: You need to learn to relax in your old age, grandpa.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Feels like your defending this quite aggressively fella! Aside from the marketing hyperbole and that it's another sub clone, it feels like there are a fair number of unanswered questions.......


Sorry - no dog in this fight at all. Speaking of baseless accusations, lol. What's next - I am getting a kickback?? I have never bought any of their products and haven't ordered this one. I have just never understood caustic and sarcastic forum attitudes that can't get beyond any semblance of objectivity to assess a watch (or anything else) purely on merit. It's a homage? If that sticks in your craw then why are you devoting so much time and effort to it on this thread and the one you started on the other forum? Homages are not your thing so better to focus on something else? Being a sub clone has no bearing on the quality of the product whatsoever - be it a MK II, Steinhart, Armida, Raven or any of a multitude of other brands. The Rolex homage is here to stay, and the scope of that argument won't be conquered here. Unanswered questions can easily be directed to the company via PM or email. If those go unanswered then it does indeed warrant well-founded concern (beyond some ill-advised and superficial choice of words in a marketing pitch). To me the only salient "unanswered questions" revolve around the movement and true origin of some of the parts within. As has been stated numerous times, some of the same questions can be leveled at numerous, famous Swiss watchmaking entities and the answers to those won't be readily forthcoming either.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

Yawn. Marketing hype aside, it's a nice looking homage. However, it is overpriced, even with the discount.

Next!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Yes, they are trying hard. But I'm not sure there is the evidence to show they've put a lot of effort in; unless you just take their statements at face value.......


Looks to me like they put together quite a nice watch. I don't believe that is a trivial endeavour.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." Keep up the defense. Maybe Ginault will notice and send you a free "kinetic continuous submersible maritime precision chronometer" in appreciation. :-d


Typical response when someone has nothing else of substance. Keep up the scintillating contributions to our fine forum. |>


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> I have just never understood caustic and sarcastic forum attitudes that can't get beyond any semblance of objectivity to assess a watch (or anything else) purely on merit.


So called "caustic and sarcastic" attitude is in reaction to Ginault's marketing BS that insults our intelligence.



Radar1 said:


> If that sticks in your craw then why are you devoting so much time and effort to it on this thread and the one you started on the other forum?


Ooh, that's kinda creepy. Are you stalking me? :-d Here's an idea. How about you take your own advice? If my posts "stick in your craw then why are you devoting so much time and effort" to respond and comment? :think:


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Looks to me like they put together quite a nice watch. I don't believe that is a trivial endeavour.


.......fair point, it does look nicely put together, but did they do all of that or subcontract it? Either way I've read enough to agree with you that it's not trivial.



Radar1 said:


> Sorry - no dog in this fight at all. Speaking of baseless accusations, lol. What's next - I am getting a kickback?? I have never bought any of their products and haven't ordered this one. I have just never understood caustic and sarcastic forum attitudes that can't get beyond any semblance of objectivity to assess a watch (or anything else) purely on merit. It's a homage? If that sticks in your craw then why are you devoting so much time and effort to it on this thread and the one you started on the other forum? Homages are not your thing so better to focus on something else? Being a sub clone has no bearing on the quality of the product whatsoever - be it a MK II, Steinhart, Armida, Raven or any of a multitude of other brands. The Rolex homage is here to stay, and the scope of that argument won't be conquered here. Unanswered questions can easily be directed to the company via PM or email. If those go unanswered then it does indeed warrant well-founded concern (beyond some ill-advised and superficial choice of words in a marketing pitch). To me the only salient "unanswered questions" revolve around the movement and true origin of some of the parts within. As has been stated numerous times, some of the same questions can be leveled at numerous, famous Swiss watchmaking entities and the answers to those won't be readily forthcoming either.


I like homages, in fact I'm perfectly happy with clones like this. I've owned them, enjoyed them and then moved on. I started the other thread because I'd seen the advert and checked it out, go back and read my original post as I was picking up on the pricing and the statement about spending 7 years perfecting the mechanism, which is as it turns out is an ETA clone........

I did also say that I didn't want it to turn in to a witch hunt, so was being pretty fair. Hey, I've even raised their profile a little bit. No commission necessary thank you!

This is a watch forum and a debate on a watch is a legitimate topic here BTW. I don't have to email the company if I don't want to and they've started their own thread to defend their product and have done a poor job in my view.......

Fella, let's agree to disagree on this one. I'd hate this to get all nasty.....


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Oh, now you are the arbiter of proper behavior? :roll: You need to learn to relax in your old age, grandpa.


I don't have grand-kids. Nice work on the hyperbole, lol.


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## Crazy Cajun (Oct 19, 2006)

I sold my Rolex Sub because at 40mm is way too small for me. Same situation here, too small. 
Appreciate the effort they took, just wish it was an original design for the efforts. Just save up and buy a Rolex if that is what you really want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> So called "caustic and sarcastic" attitude is in reaction to Ginault's marketing BS that insults our intelligence.
> 
> Ooh, that's kinda creepy. Are you stalking me? :-d Here's an idea. How about you take your own advice? If my posts "stick in your craw then why are you devoting so much time and effort" to respond and comment? :think:


You're 100% correct. Your vacuous drivel doesn't warrant any further response. Back to the watch, which should be the focus of attention here. Carry on with your petty, bitter day. |>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Crazy Cajun said:


> I sold my Rolex Sub because at 40mm is way too small for me. Same situation here, too small.
> Appreciate the effort they took, just wish it was an original design for the efforts. Just save up and buy a Rolex if that is what you really want.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree on the sizing. I am debating moving my Raven Vintage for the same reason. I also wonder if I just wore a 40mm more and bought fewer at a larger size if I may become more accustomed to the smaller size.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Crazy Cajun said:


> I sold my Rolex Sub because at 40mm is way too small for me. Same situation here, too small.
> Appreciate the effort they took, just wish it was an original design for the efforts. Just save up and buy a Rolex if that is what you really want.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


.....and if you don't want to save up for a Rolex?


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## Djk949 (Jun 29, 2012)

I don't have a horse in this race but I am always on the lookout for a great sub homage. This caught my eye but I was immediately turned off by the BS dribble (if I were to journey the earth for materials, I would post a photo blog of my journeys from Alaska to Argentina; I would document the stages of meticulous construction; etc.), price (if claims are true, this would be in the thousands of dollars range), text on dial, but mainly the BS dribble (Chinese shock absorber was "chosen" because it's the most recognizable component in the movement indicating its origins). I've been a consumer long enough to know that you can't make a Fiero into a Ferrari 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Carry on with your petty, bitter day. |>


You are actually providing quite a bit of entertainment. Thank you for brightening my petty, bitter day. :-d


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> .......fair point, it does look nicely put together, but did they do all of that or subcontract it? Either way I've read enough to agree with you that it's not trivial.
> 
> I like homages, in fact I'm perfectly happy with clones like this. I've owned them, enjoyed them and then moved on. I started the other thread because I'd seen the advert and checked it out, go back and read my original post as I was picking up on the pricing and the statement about spending 7 years perfecting the mechanism, which is as it turns out is an ETA clone........
> 
> ...


Fair enough on their lack of response within the thread. I still think someone could put some very pointed and focused questions to them (without attacking the ad campaign, which really has little bearing on the nuts and bolts of the watch beyond ambiguities about the movement, which are justified). A debate on the watch is obviously fair game. Constant whining and picking apart of semantics is shallow and doesn't really get at the watch in any constructive way. Not pointing fingers at you at all.

On the matter of simply buying a Steinhart, I believe it is far too early to tell if they actually make a nicer homage or represent better value (assuming a significant discount off MSRP is in play for the Ginault). I think an Ocean One and this model would have to be compared side-by-side to draw that conclusion and no-one has the Ginault in hand to do that yet. We have several good quality macro photos that to my eye indicate that the Ginault is a more nicely finished watch. Internals TBD fully. I have owned two Steinharts and they were decent watches and solid value. I can't say that either were truly outstanding in terms of build quality, and were obviously homages, but for the money definitely both good buys. For the record, I bought two Hexa Ospreys (sold the black dial) and didn't like their bogus MSRP either. It didn't dissuade me from buying either piece when the price was more realistic. The bottom line is getting a good quality watch at a fair price, and I have no issue with seeing through and past the hyperbole. I can separate the watch from the hot air. How do you think this one may compare to say a Tourby 42 (homage aspect aside)?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Djk949 said:


> I don't have a horse in this race but I am always on the lookout for a great sub homage. This caught my eye but I was immediately turned off by the BS dribble (if I were to journey the earth for materials, I would post a photo blog of my journeys from Alaska to Argentina; I would document the stages of meticulous construction; etc.), price (if claims are true, this would be in the thousands of dollars range), text on dial, but mainly the BS dribble. I've been a consumer long enough to know that you can't make a Fiero into a Ferrari
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With all due respect, I think a Parnis or Alpha might better represent the Fiero in your equation. The Rolex is the Ferarri and I very much doubt that this company would suggest otherwise.


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## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

at 60% Off the $1299 price $520

its not bad 

I have owned every Sub homage 

whatever


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

jdmfetish said:


> at 60% Off the $1299 price $520
> 
> its not bad


Sure but keep in mind that you have to write a paper on "Ginault, how do I love thee" for that 60% discount. ;-)


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## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

I will write all day long at $2 a word


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

:think:
Appreciate the detail, good luck!!

I've built dozens of sub [homage] mods and am a semi-pro relumer. To me, the dial and movement are above-standard but it's hard to tell how much from pics.

A true enamel dial is rare, and it looks great in pics. But the site touts the quality of the markers and depth of the lume... images of the loose dial markers on the site appear to show great polish but not the kind of depth required for Rolex or Omega-caliber lume (but it's hard to judge from a pic).









(For comparison, most cheap shiny dials are painted/coated and often markers aren't cupped at all. This is a nice dial, just hard to tell how nice without seeing it.)

The movement reflects a high degree of detail. While some parts appear Asian, it's not a Sea-Gull ebauche; there's a bit customized here. The balance hardware is pretty nice (not rarefied as the verbiage makes it sound) and the tall cannon pinion will improve the depth of the watch face. This movement could be very good: timing numbers are believable.

Both customized and off-the-shelf movements have pros and cons, but use of the former accounts for some of the price here.

Other bits are harder to judge from pics but the case looks nice. I'd prefer drilled lugs since the end links are going for the earlier folded fit look. IMO a choice between merc and sword hands would be nice.

This is doing a different thing than most other legit homages out there (classy of Doc IMO to bow out of comparison). The marketing verbiage is unfortunate mostly because it carries onto the dial...

With used Black Bays dipping below $2k, the bar for a $1300 vintage Sub homage is quite high. Looking forward to a detailed review! :-!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

NeedAG said:


> :think:
> Appreciate the detail, good luck!!
> 
> I've built dozens of Sub mods and am a semi-pro relumer. To me, the dial and movement are above-standard but it's hard to tell how much from pics.
> ...


Great post. Nice to see some well thought out and constructive opinion on the matter, as opposed to brainless bashing.


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## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

people who bought his Base Module 1 in 2011 liked it 

he can build a watch 

OWC is $750 ISH with Seagull and $1000 ISH with Soprod 

MKII is $1750 ISH with ETA and you will wait TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long for it 

This at $520 is priced fine


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Fair enough on their lack of response within the thread. I still think someone could put some very pointed and focused questions to them (without attacking the ad campaign, which really has little bearing on the nuts and bolts of the watch beyond ambiguities about the movement, which are justified). A debate on the watch is obviously fair game. Constant whining and picking apart of semantics is shallow and doesn't really get at the watch in any constructive way. Not pointing fingers at you at all.
> 
> On the matter of simply buying a Steinhart, I believe it is far too early to tell if they actually make a nicer homage or represent better value (assuming a significant discount off MSRP is in play for the Ginault). I think an Ocean One and this model would have to be compared side-by-side to draw that conclusion and no-one has the Ginault in hand to do that yet. We have several good quality macro photos that to my eye indicate that the Ginault is a more nicely finished watch. Internals TBD fully. I have owned two Steinharts and they were decent watches and solid value. I can't say that either were truly outstanding in terms of build quality, and were obviously homages, but for the money definitely both good buys. For the record, I bought two Hexa Ospreys (sold the black dial) and didn't like their bogus MSRP either. It didn't dissuade me from buying either piece when the price was more realistic. The bottom line is getting a good quality watch at a fair price, and I have no issue with seeing through and past the hyperbole. I can separate the watch from the hot air. How do you think this one may compare to say a Tourby 42 (homage aspect aside)?


If you put your wares out for display you've got to be prepared to defend and discuss. I've seen others come on and react with politeness and good grace to a good grilling, maybe Ginault need to join in here?

I've handled Tudors and Omegas recently and compared to the micro brands I own (Steinhart included....) I did not see a justification for the hike in price based solely on quality. IMHO you're paying for the name and the expense of a big marketing budget. So when looking at the Ginault I fail to see how they can justify the price over that of a Steinhart, Armida, Helson or say Kemmner. I've been thinking about Mkii here and they manage to justify their prices because of the attention to detail and the amazing looks, I don't see that Ginault have either the looks or the fan base to justify the price in the same way.......

As you've said we'd need to see an impartial review (that's not been bought with a discount!).

Tourby 42 looks good and at least it has its own design language, whilst reminding me of the Tudor BB, no idea how it would compare TBH.


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## Djk949 (Jun 29, 2012)

To be crystal clear, a watchmaker's (not a modder's) tear down would be needed to substantiate the claims made here. Eyeballing pics or the actual product does not do that. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Selecting a graphic with the word "son" in it is inherently condescending. I think you know that. I didn't "bait" you. That has a malicious connotation that is out of line here.
> 
> Pretty sure I had your back on as many baseless accusations against you that I saw. Not out of any loyalty to you or your brand but because I despise seeing garbage like that unfairly propogated against people on public forums.
> 
> I do think you have to watch your step a little as a fellow micro owner/retailer on the forum, but you have opined on other brands/products. Why would this one be different? Because you see deficiencies and don't want that misconstrued as an attack on a competitor? I really don't see too many negatives on this watch from the description (grandiose semantics aside) or the macro shots, and some (IMO) are basing their perspectives purely on the marketing hype, which clearly fell a little flat, but can hardly be correlated directly with the quality of the product.


Radar, I assure you, there was no condescension implied. The meme just is what it is. Please don't read so much into it.

You have spoke up in my defense, which I do appreciate, and I'd never intentionally insult you in the way you're interpreting the post. You've taken offense where none was meant, and none should be taken.

You said it would be interesting to get my take. My take is just as I said. If the product is good, worth the asking price, and backed up by the sellers, I wish them well. Beyond that, no comment.

We secretly replaced Stacy's real talk with new freeze-dried Tapatalk crystals. Let's see if she can taste the difference...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> If you put your wares out for display you've got to be prepared to defend and discuss. I've seen others come on and react with politeness and good grace to a good grilling, maybe Ginault need to join in here?
> 
> I've handled Tudors and Omegas recently and compared to the micro brands I own (Steinhart included....) I did not see a justification for the hike in price based solely on quality. IMHO you're paying for the name and the expense of a big marketing budget. So when looking at the Ginault I fail to see how they can justify the price over that of a Steinhart, Armida, Helson or say Kemmner. I've been thinking about Mkii here and they manage to justify their prices because of the attention to detail and the amazing looks, I don't see that Ginault have either the looks or the fan base to justify the price in the same way.......
> 
> ...


If we discard the MSRP and work with the discount then it is only a slight bump on the Steinhart Ocean One. I think it is entirely possible that that nominal increment is more than justified - we'll have to wait and see as some land. I read plenty of comments on their Base 1 model being outstanding quality, so there is at least some reason to be positive here. It is clear that the company feels this is a better effort than the first watch they built. Perhaps worded a little too exuberantly... lol.

Agreed that they could step in at any time and clarify some questions. I think while the styling of the Tourby is obviously very different, it might make for a reasonable comparison in terms of components and build quality. Lovely watches for certain.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

docvail said:


> Radar, I assure you, there was no condescension implied. The meme just is what it is. Please don't read so much into it.
> 
> You have spoke up in my defense, which I do appreciate, and I'd never intentionally insult you in the way you're interpreting the post. You've taken offense where none was meant, and none should be taken.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, Chris. Thanks.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Djk949 said:


> To be crystal clear, a watchmaker's (not a modder's) tear down would be needed to substantiate the claims made here. Eyeballing pics or the actual product does not do that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A little research should reveal quickly enough that they can and do build pretty nice watches. Jury is out on the movement for now, and at least some of the rest should be revealed as some are acquired and owners post their thoughts.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

I was interested to see how their previous watch was received, found the following:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-base-module-1-a-672199.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/opinions-ginault-804829.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-wathch-company-service-637975.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/ginault-anybody-know-if-something-up-company-605496.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-do-they-sell-watches-496026.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-silent-service-ii-598127.html
Watch Freeks - Watch Review: Ginault Base Module 1

Would suggest patchy CS........

Not many reviews to be found.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I was interested to see how their previous watch was received, found the following:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-base-module-1-a-672199.html
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/opinions-ginault-804829.html
> ...


It's a shame the Secret Service II model didn't make it to production. I have also read some comments about spotty CS. They have an opportunity here with a new model to bolster that side of things.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> It's a shame the Secret Service II model didn't make it to production. I have also read some comments about spotty CS. They have an opportunity here with a new model to bolster that side of things.
> 
> View attachment 10286970


Yes, this is actually quite good looking.......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Agreed. That they couldn't get it to market underlines the pitfalls of the business for small companies.


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## Crazy Cajun (Oct 19, 2006)

Hornet99 said:


> .....and if you don't want to save up for a Rolex?


Then u buy a shameless clone. Plenty of fake Louis Vittoin bags out there too. It is called exclusivity.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Crazy Cajun (Oct 19, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> I agree on the sizing. I am debating moving my Raven Vintage for the same reason. I also wonder if I just wore a 40mm more and bought fewer at a larger size if I may become more accustomed to the smaller size.


Before I knew there was a world of dive watches besides a Rolex Sub, I wore the Sub 24/7 for about a decade, my only complaint it being too small. Never could adjust my perception and I got bigger, lol, so it got even smaller.

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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Crazy Cajun said:


> Then u buy a shameless clone. Plenty of fake Louis Vittoin bags out there too. It is called exclusivity.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


.....and I'd have absolutely no problem with buying one.

Although I'd not buy a Louis Vuitton bag (fake or not......). Or a Louis Vittoin.......


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

Regardless of how nice this watch is made , the fact that it is a military sub clone automatically put a target on its back. If this watch was produced five years ago the response here might be different ,but that's not the case. There are around 10 micro brands that have traveled this road and it becomes redundant. The whole homage debate aside, most of us have been there and done that in regards to the mil sub replica. We could all go on forever about which one is better for the price. Add another to the list. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jlow28 said:


> Regardless of how nice this watch is made , the fact that it is a military sub clone automatically put a target on its back. If this watch was produced five years ago the response here might be different ,but that's not the case. There are around 10 micro brands that have traveled this road and it becomes redundant. The whole homage debate aside, most of us have been there and done that in regards to the mil sub replica. We could all go on forever about which one is better for the price. Add another to the list.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've been down this road too but clearly haven't found one that I was completely happy with. I might be willing to try one more time with this one.

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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> I've been down this road too but clearly haven't found one that I was completely happy with. I might be willing to try one more time with this one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Im in the same boat. I know what to expect and have been down the sub homage route numerous times.
I have my reservations, but curious I am.
Still debating.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> I've been down this road too but clearly haven't found one that I was completely happy with. I might be willing to try one more time with this one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Well, if you can get it at the discounted price that might make it just about acceptable. Would be interesting to see your review.


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## Vinguru (Jun 23, 2011)

The finishing does look nice, though. I love the subs but see too much text on the dial and price is too high for a "fun" addition to my collection.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Well, if you can get it at the discounted price that might make it just about acceptable. Would be interesting to see your review.


Agreed. Stay tuned!

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Vinguru said:


> The finishing does look nice, though. I love the subs but see too much text on the dial and price is too high for a "fun" addition to my collection.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


Discounted at a little over $500. Ballpark of the 2824 A2 and my perception is that it is higher quality.

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## Nalco (Dec 6, 2015)

My honest opinion: Too much homages at more suitable prices. No need to pay high, just its using "patriotism" saying "American Made" sth. It is more logical to pay the watch you will benefit and to an original design. I don't know their marketing policy, but they must present themselves more sincere and transparent. Watch enthusiasts are real true indicators. I am sure they see more beyond fancy words and marketing illusion.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

If a sub homage is not of interest then obviously the watch won't have any appeal. There are cheaper sub homage options, but I am always willing to pay a bit more for something based on higher quality level. This seems to hit that mark but we'll know more when some are reviewed.

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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm really curious how good that gold sand lume will be considering how expensive and how hard it was too get. I'm usually not a fan of vintage lume as it is always weaker


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> I'm really curious how good that gold sand lume will be considering how expensive and how hard it was too get. I'm usually not a fan of vintage lume as it is always weaker


Clearly it is good. How long it lasts is still up for determination.


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## francorx (Feb 19, 2016)

I like the watch but not the $1299 price without the review discount. I have a rolex submariner, but no homage subs to compare to so I dont qualify for any discount  

At $500 ish range I may consider this, at $1299 never. Too many other options out there. Curious to see some reviews from members and their thoughts once they have it in hand. I have purchased a few micro brands and have been very happy (Mercer, Magrette, Halios), H2O Marlin - is on order. Most micro brands have been in the below $1K, exception H20. I think at this price point of $1299 it will be a hard sell given the competition. 

Historically I have only purchased swiss brands and recently tried out the micro brands. I have not been disappointed with the micros, in fact impressed at the prices. My current collection is growing with micro brands and will continue given my past experiences. 

Best of luck Ginault, I wish you the best


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## maxpowerman (Oct 11, 2010)

Good luck Ginault, but...not a chance with this guy.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

jdmfetish said:


> at 60% Off the $1299 price $520
> 
> its not bad
> 
> ...


Indeed it seems like a great value at 500-600$.

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

RNHC said:


> Sure but keep in mind that you have to write a paper on "Ginault, how do I love thee" for that 60% discount. ;-)


Writing a quick review of 300-400 word isn't that hard. Some here have typed far more arguing with 0-value added and creating animosity on what should be a fun convo and hobby in general. Surely those same folks can write a quick summary of their view on a watch. But I do not favor their marketing practice either 

Many WIS start a new thread for their new arrivals anyway sharing their first impressions so why not do it for the Ginault if they are interested in checking it out but can't pay the inflated msrp 
I personally wouldn't pay it  but at 500$ I'd be willing to give it a go though I have some concerns

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

jdmfetish said:


> people who bought his Base Module 1 in 2011 liked it
> 
> he can build a watch
> 
> ...


MKii is ridiculous. Never understood their marketing model either. I'll admit their watches seem well built but have only seen one in the metal and wasn't that impressed that I'd pay 1500$ for it or even 1k and wait indefinitely and made feel it's a privilege
To 

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Djk949 said:


> To be crystal clear, a watchmaker's (not a modder's) tear down would be needed to substantiate the claims made here. Eyeballing pics or the actual product does not do that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed. I'd love to see that happen 

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> It's a shame the Secret Service II model didn't make it to production. I have also read some comments about spotty CS. They have an opportunity here with a new model to bolster that side of things.
> 
> View attachment 10286970


Wow. That's a hot watch.

I don't feel like reading 10 reviews but I'd be interested to hear what CS issues folks have experienced

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> I've been down this road too but clearly haven't found one that I was completely happy with. I might be willing to try one more time with this one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk





Crazy Cajun said:


> Before I knew there was a world of dive watches besides a Rolex Sub, I wore the Sub 24/7 for about a decade, my only complaint it being too small. Never could adjust my perception and I got bigger, lol, so it got even smaller.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love the Rolex and Tudor subs but 40mm is a tad small especially on strap. Wears a bit larger on bracelet.

I think the new Squale 42mm sub homage with ceramic bezel at 550 is a heck of a deal and a great answer to folks wanting a larger sub. Seems well made too

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Here are some thoughts in random order as i just finished reading the whole thread 

- where the heck is Ginault?? Post all their marketing stuff page 1 then boom... disappear. 
I'd like to see them respond worth objective factual replies. 

- If touting made in USA and in house... I want specific from the company especially if I am to pay a premium. 
I'd love to see transparency and specifics about what parts and portion of labor is US sourced. 

- i love made in USA and try to buy made in USA when I can. I'll pay a premium for it. 

- I love the watch and it looks very well made from the photos. But hard to judge from photos of course. 

- $520 is a very reasonable price for a well made homage with some US made attributes. 

- I owned various Steinhart's and I didn't think the quality was all that great vs other micros. I also think their CS has not been very good, it hasn't kept with the company growth. 
Their case is also too long and of a poor design from a profile. It's flat and sticks out. 

- I can't afford a Rolex right now and would like a nice homage. I am very interested in the new 42mm Squale sub with ceramic bezel 

- lastly I'm very disappointed to read some of the comments, the fighting and animosity by some posters. It takes away from our hobby and pleasant/meaningful conversations. (Btw We don't have to agree. )


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I have had an articulate and lengthy response to an email sent to Ginault. All the parts in the movement - save the ones they mentioned - were made in the USA. Then hand assembled and regulated by them. It is not built on a base Chinese movement. I also have assurances that the lume is comparable to C3 in performance. They will be posting further details on their watch shortly, including the movement. I don't believe they are exaggerating the quality of the watch but everyone is entitled to an opinion - well founded and fair, or otherwise. I think they are sincere and have put together a very nice sub homage.

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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> I have had an articulate and lengthy response to an email sent to Ginault. All the parts in the movement - save the ones they mentioned - were made in the USA. Then hand assembled and regulated by them. It is not built on a base Chinese movement. I also have assurances that the lume is comparable to C3 in performance. They will be posting further details on their watch shortly, including the movement. I don't believe they are exaggerating the quality of the watch but everyone is entitled to an opinion - well founded and fair, or otherwise. I think they are sincere and have put together a very nice sub homage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Brilliant and well done for getting a response. I'm still not sure what the point was though, all that effort to produce what is essentially a clone of an ETA movement. So is their movement any better than a well adjusted (COSC) ETA movement? Why not buy an ETA (or something else) and put your own stamp on and adjust it well.......?

I may have missed the point, so am willing to be educated!


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> I have had an articulate and lengthy response to an email sent to Ginault. All the parts in the movement - save the ones they mentioned - were made in the USA. Then hand assembled and regulated by them. It is not built on a base Chinese movement. I also have assurances that the lume is comparable to C3 in performance. They will be posting further details on their watch shortly, including the movement. I don't believe they are exaggerating the quality of the watch but everyone is entitled to an opinion - well founded and fair, or otherwise. I think they are sincere and have put together a very nice sub homage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


That's great news. Thanks for sharing. 
I look forward to them getting engaged with facts in this thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Brilliant and well done for getting a response. I'm still not sure what the point was though, all that effort to produce what is essentially a clone of an ETA movement. So is their movement any better than a well adjusted (COSC) ETA movement? Why not buy an ETA (or something else) and put your own stamp on and adjust it well.......?
> 
> I may have missed the point, so am willing to be educated!


I can't speak for the company but perhaps the rationale will accompany further info on the movement. It is a major undertaking and I commend them for it. From another perspective, not just another 2824 powered sub homage and from their initial post maybe some components and materials that are upgraded over the standard ETA.

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Still nothing from Ginault ?
I am really tempted and would do an honest review on all sites and IG. But I want to hear from them here. 


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

I want this. But need something to push me over the edge!
#wisproblems


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Knoc said:


> I want this. But need something to push me over the edge!
> #wisproblems


Same here. I have a 116610LV and recently the 16610 bug has bitten me.

I am starting to really like the 5 digit Sub design and it doesn't have to be the Rolex brand. This design seems very close to the 16610 and it looks well made from the pictures. But after reading through this thread I must admit I am a bit hesitant. Waiting for a review.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

I noticed the picture of the watch next to the movement test result, the dial has smaller hour markers, with date window, date font is white on black background. Is that another model?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> Still nothing from Ginault ?
> I am really tempted and would do an honest review on all sites and IG. But I want to hear from them here.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was told in a recent email that additional posts would be forthcoming from Ginault with more details about the watch. I tried to impress on the company the importance of doing so, to prevent a handful of naysayers from unfairly hurting their success and undermining all their hard work bringing this watch to production. That's all I know at this stage. I ordered one last night and will post up a review when it lands. I guess that makes me the guinea pig, but it's the only way we can know for certain. As I told Knoc last night, I have a gut feeling that this will be a stellar piece and don't have any trepidation about the quality at all. I am quite certain that Ginault really wants some solid reviews put up on the forum, but that doesn't replace their additional input - especially on the movement.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I noticed the picture of the watch next to the movement test result, the dial has smaller hour markers, with date window, date font is white on black background. Is that another model?


I noticed the same thing. That is the only photo showing that configuration so my assumption is that it is a proto. I can ask to confirm.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I noticed the picture of the watch next to the movement test result, the dial has smaller hour markers, with date window, date font is white on black background. Is that another model?


I can now confirm that the production model has the maxi dial and no date as shown in all but one photo. The other dial is a "work in progress" - presumably to mean an option at some point if things go well. Mine will ship tomorrow. Communication with the company to date has been excellent, and that is always a big plus for me.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> I can now confirm that the production model has the maxi dial and no date as shown in all but one photo. The other dial is a "work in progress" - presumably to mean an option at some point if things go well. Mine will ship tomorrow. Communication with the company to date has been excellent, and that is always a big plus for me.


That's great. Congrats. 
Can u pls Pm me his email ?

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## solar g-shocker (Feb 16, 2006)

I'd love that secret service II model. I read most of the thread just to find out they aren't making that one!!

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> That's great. Congrats.
> Can u pls Pm me his email ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey Brice. Is it the content of his email or the email address that you require? Thx.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> Hey Brice. Is it the content of his email or the email address that you require? Thx.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Sorry. Just the address.

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> Sorry. Just the address.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok. Please check PM. |>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

solar g-shocker said:


> I'd love that secret service II model. I read most of the thread just to find out they aren't making that one!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe if the Ocean-Rover is a success they can put the Secret Service model back on the table. Definitely a cool looking watch.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> I can now confirm that the production model has the maxi dial and no date as shown in all but one photo. The other dial is a "work in progress" - presumably to mean an option at some point if things go well. Mine will ship tomorrow. Communication with the company to date has been excellent, and that is always a big plus for me.


Much appreciated for the update. Looking forward for your review on the OR.


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## Casanova Jr. (Oct 6, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Maybe if the Ocean-Rover is a success they can put the Secret Service model back on the table. Definitely a cool looking watch.


at the asking price I really doubt it, not to many buyers are willing to write down a review to get a discount... I hope they are bringing down the price at what really it should be and leave away all that nonsense marketing fluff. Let's face it, most micros in the next few years will disappear when you see that big brands like mido, certina and a few others can make amazing timepices ( I do have a mido and I 'm blown away by the quality) at reasonable prices, you understand that for micros there is litte room for mistakes, a good start is crucial, they are still in time to make it right, they have some potential that I dont see in other micros, wish them all the best


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I agree with you that the mid-stream Swiss brands have upped their game recently. That's who most of the micros will compete against. The new Mido OSC V is an incredible watch in the $500-$600 range (grey market). The Certina DS Action has always been an exceptional value. Some questions remain on the new Ginault movement, but it sounds 95% "in-house" and that is no trivial feat. No doubt getting off the ground well is very important here.


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## DEMO111 (Apr 27, 2006)

solar g-shocker said:


> I'd love that secret service II model. I read most of the thread just to find out they aren't making that one!!


Yep, same here. I would be very interested in the Secret Service II model.

Sorry, but another sub homage, no mater the quality, doesn't do anything for me.


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## whoa (May 5, 2013)

DEMO111 said:


> Yep, same here. I would be very interested in the Secret Service II model.
> 
> Sorry, but another sub homage, no mater the quality, doesn't do anything for me.


This.. Why go through all this, with the luminous sand, in house movement, dial etc... And then make ANOTHER freaking sub homage.. Honestly to me, no matter the quality, being steinhart, parnis or this.. It's still just a "almost fake" (it seems people think it's the name that does the difference..) but when going all the way with so much else as it seems here.. Make your own design.. I don't get it! Uninspired is what comes to mind..

/insert clever or funny note here\


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

In for the reviews. I'm really interested to see what's going to happen for 2017 considering how many Swiss watches you can buy for $500 or less these days. I mean you can pick up a Swiss auto chrono for $600 with change these days. It's hard for me to justify paying similar pricing on a pre order Chinese 9015 watch.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

whoa said:


> This.. Why go through all this, with the luminous sand, in house movement, dial etc... And then make ANOTHER freaking sub homage.. Honestly to me, no matter the quality, being steinhart, parnis or this.. It's still just a "almost fake" (it seems people think it's the name that does the difference..) but when going all the way with so much else as it seems here.. Make your own design.. I don't get it! Uninspired is what comes to mind..
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\


I don't have a spare $8k for the Rolex. I am ok with a high quality alternative with this level of finishing and componentry. There is always a counter point perspective.

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

AVS_Racing said:


> In for the reviews. I'm really interested to see what's going to happen for 2017 considering how many Swiss watches you can buy for $500 or less these days. I mean you can pick up a Swiss auto chrono for $600 with change these days. It's hard for me to justify paying similar pricing on a pre order Chinese 9015 watch.


Chinese 9015 ???

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

No pre-order either. Mine is on a plane.

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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I meant Chinese Made Watch with Miyota 9015 Movement.



Jeep99dad said:


> Chinese 9015 ???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

AVS_Racing said:


> I meant Chinese Made Watch with Miyota 9015 Movement.


It's not a myota

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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^ I know, I wasn't specially referring to this watch but just micros in general from what I've noticed in the last few months. Price of Swiss dropping making "higher end Chinese micros" less attractive


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## whoa (May 5, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> I don't have a spare $8k for the Rolex. I am ok with a high quality alternative with this level of finishing and componentry. There is always a counter point perspective.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Yeah and the market obviously is really big for this design, I just find it boring  but if I liked Rolex designs I would probably embrace it! It's just to me feels like every week a new brand (or "old") pops up with another sub homage! I agree that this looks like a well made watch in it self and I'm sure you guys will like it! And as you can see I read this thread, but that's because I find it interesting with the movement etc! Will you do a review when you had yours for a while?

/insert clever or funny note here\


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> I meant Chinese Made Watch with Miyota 9015 Movement.


It isn't Chinese made and it doesn't have a 9015. It is hand built in the USA (including virtually all the components) and with the exception of four parts, the movement is also made, assembled, and regulated in the USA.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

whoa said:


> Yeah and the market obviously is really big for this design, I just find it boring  but if I liked Rolex designs I would probably embrace it! It's just to me feels like every week a new brand (or "old") pops up with another sub homage! I agree that this looks like a well made watch in it self and I'm sure you guys will like it! And as you can see I read this thread, but that's because I find it interesting with the movement etc! Will you do a review when you had yours for a while?
> 
> /insert clever or funny note here\


Fully understand. If the Sub homage is not to your liking from a design standpoint then it won't matter how nice this one is. The most important box won't be checked. But it is the most often imitated design for a reason. It is timeless and classic without doubt. To be honest, there are plenty of watches costing far less than the Rolex that I would buy before sinking $8k into a real Sub. I know they are exceptional quality, but I would rather have an Oris 65, Tudor, and Omega for the same money if I was spending that much. I think the Ginault will scratch the Sub homage itch for now, but we'll see when it lands. My Steinhart, Armida, and Ancon were all good, but I am pretty sure this is nicer and far less of "catalog origin". I agreed to do a full review for Ginault in exchange for a discounted price. Unlike some others on the thread, I don't think that compromises the company or necessarily means they should simply be selling them at $500-$600 (though, if enough people don't see a higher value as justified, then they will have to make an adjustment). This is their first foray back into the market in five years and I am sure they realise they need exposure. I also believe they have no qualms about the quality of the watch they have put together and know it is likely to elicit positive feedback and reviews, homage debate aside.


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## whoa (May 5, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> Fully understand. If the Sub homage is not to your liking from a design standpoint then it won't matter how nice this one is. The most important box won't be checked. But it is the most often imitated design for a reason. It is timeless and classic without doubt. To be honest, there are plenty of watches costing far less than the Rolex that I would buy before sinking $8k into a real Sub. I know they are exceptional quality, but I would rather have an Oris 65, Tudor, and Omega for the same money if I was spending that much. I think the Ginault will scratch the Sub homage itch for now, but we'll see when it lands. My Steinhart, Armida, and Ancon were all good, but I am pretty sure this is nicer and far less of "catalog origin". I agreed to do a full review for Ginault in exchange for a discounted price. Unlike some others on the thread, I don't think that compromises the company or necessarily means they should simply be selling them at $500-$600 (though, if enough people don't see a higher value as justified, then they will have to make an adjustment). This is their first foray back into the market in five years and I am sure they realise they need exposure. I also believe they have no qualms about the quality of the watch they have put together and know it is likely to elicit positive feedback and reviews, homage debate aside.


I fully agree! And I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the watch in general MB from pics it certainly look well build!

/insert clever or funny note here\


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> Fully understand. If the Sub homage is not to your liking from a design standpoint then it won't matter how nice this one is. The most important box won't be checked. But it is the most often imitated design for a reason. It is timeless and classic without doubt. To be honest, there are plenty of watches costing far less than the Rolex that I would buy before sinking $8k into a real Sub. I know they are exceptional quality, but I would rather have an Oris 65, Tudor, and Omega for the same money if I was spending that much. I think the Ginault will scratch the Sub homage itch for now, but we'll see when it lands. My Steinhart, Armida, and Ancon were all good, but I am pretty sure this is nicer and far less of "catalog origin". I agreed to do a full review for Ginault in exchange for a discounted price. Unlike some others on the thread, I don't think that compromises the company or necessarily means they should simply be selling them at $500-$600 (though, if enough people don't see a higher value as justified, then they will have to make an adjustment). This is their first foray back into the market in five years and I am sure they realise they need exposure. I also believe they have no qualms about the quality of the watch they have put together and know it is likely to elicit positive feedback and reviews, homage debate aside.


Agreed. 
I can't affor a Rolex right now but love the sub design/look and its versatility. I miss it. So i need to buy an homage if I want one until I can buy a Rolex. I was looking at the new 42mm Squale homage in fact. But this is a tempting alternative. I may jump off the fence after some New Year's Eve champaign 

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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

i think it looks nice but not at 1200 bucks. the bracelet looks like the Tissell bracelet which I hear is good. the lack of ceramic bezel is a bit of a let down. they seem to go the extra mile to share a lot of detail. some will call it bs some will call it transparency. i think it is good to hear about the processes they go through to make the watch and it does certainly look appealing to me. at 580 bucks it seems like a reasonable purchase in a very competitive environment. Like Brice pointed out you can get a Squale for 500 bucks and all I hear is good things about that brand.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> Agreed.
> I can't affor a Rolex right now but love the sub design/look and its versatility. I miss it. So i need to buy an homage if I want one until I can buy a Rolex. I was looking at the new 42mm Squale homage in fact. But this is a tempting alternative. I may jump off the fence after some New Year's Eve champaign
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you put up a link to the new Squale please? Is it the GMT? Thx. Easy on the bubbly until I can get you a review on the Ocean-Rover!


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> Can you put up a link to the new Squale please? Is it the GMT? Thx. Easy on the bubbly until I can get you a review on the Ocean-Rover!






























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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

No gold luminous sand on the squale....tsk tsk

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## WreckDiver1321 (Sep 2, 2016)

Jeep99dad said:


> ...


I just posted a new thread about that Squale. It's quite the looker, especially with that ceramic bezel. I think they absolutely nailed the styling. I nearly bought one, and I still may.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

valuewatchguy said:


> No gold luminous sand on the squale....tsk tsk
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


......what?! Did Squale not travel to the ends of the earth in search of the very best luminous sand? The cheapskates, I'm cancelling my order.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> No gold luminous sand on the squale....tsk tsk
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


How's the lume on the Squale?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Looks like the new Squale uses C1. I am also a little perplexed by the end-link fit. Aside from that and the annoying cyclops it does look quite nice.


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I actually really like the squale. I had 2. I only flipped it because the lume wasn't up to my standards. The fit and finish was better than my steinhart


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## Craustin1 (Apr 28, 2011)

The end link fitment is done by design, and works quite well when you see the actual watch. Rolex does the same with their bracelet on the DSSD.

View attachment 10373834




Radar1 said:


> Looks like the new Squale uses C1. I am also a little perplexed by the end-link fit. Aside from that and the annoying cyclops it does look quite nice.
> 
> View attachment 10369914


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Craustin1 said:


> The end link fitment is done by design, and works quite well when you see the actual watch. Rolex does the same with their bracelet on the DSSD.
> 
> View attachment 10373834


I get the design it just looks a little ill-fitting to me.

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Craustin1 said:


> The end link fitment is done by design, and works quite well when you see the actual watch. Rolex does the same with their bracelet on the DSSD.
> 
> View attachment 10373834


Agree with that. Raven did the same too

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I can't see the pics you guys linked for some reason but will take your word for it. Thanks.

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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> How's the lume on the Squale?


I have no idea. But i find excessive marketing brings out the cynic in me.

I do hope that you find the watch to be exceptional though. No offense intended on my part.

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> I have no idea. But i find excessive marketing brings out the cynic in me.
> 
> I do hope that you find the watch to be exceptional though. No offense intended on my part.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


No offense taken. I'll know soon enough how nice the quality is. I am expecting good things.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

mule said:


> The photos of the Ocean-Rover do it justice! Looks like a $10K timepiece.


Don't you have to have seen this watch in the "metal" for this ^^^ to make sense?!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Don't you have to have seen this watch in the "metal" for this ^^^ to make sense?!


I think it was a play on words. It looks like a Rolex, which of course could cost upwards of $10k.

High quality macro photos can certainly impart a reasonable sense of quality. Obviously not a full substitute for having the watch in hand, but I see nothing that indicates subpar component or build quality in any of their photos.









View attachment 10382146


View attachment 10382162


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> I think it was a play on words. It looks like a Rolex, which of course could cost upwards of $10k.
> 
> High quality macro photos can certainly impart a reasonable sense of quality. Obviously not a full substitute for having the watch in hand, but I see nothing that indicates subpar component or build quality in any of their photos.
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to critique the quality of the watch, we've done that to death already. We just can't comment on the watch until someone actually has one and we get some unbiased opinions and real world photos.....


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I wasn't trying to critique the quality of the watch, we've done that to death already. We just can't comment on the watch until someone actually has one and we get some unbiased opinions and real world photos.....


We'll agree to disagree. I think you do need it in hand to say with absolute and comprehensive certainty, but can also certainly infer plenty from HD macro photos like these. I really do not believe their macro shots have been doctored or are not "real world" in any way, and any pics I (or others) take won't be any better - or even as good. That is not a prototype, it is the real watch and certainly some sense of solid quality is conveyed. |>


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> We'll agree to disagree. I think you do need it in hand to say with absolute and comprehensive certainty, but can also certainly infer plenty from HD macro photos like these. I really do not believe their macro shots have been doctored or are not "real world" in any way, and any pics I (or others) take won't be any better - or even as good. That is not a prototype, it is the real watch and certainly some sense of solid quality is conveyed. |>


I'd agree the photos do indicate a well finished product, but promotional photos are generally done to show the product in the very best light.......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I'd agree the photos do indicate a well finished product, but promotional photos are generally done to show the product in the very best light.......


No evidence of airbrushing or alteration of any sort here, and those strategies are more often the problem with promotional photo "deception". Also highly magnified in several photos and no warts present, lol. I will have it tomorrow or Weds to confirm.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> No evidence of airbrushing or alteration of any sort here, and those strategies are more often the problem with promotional photo "deception". Also highly magnified in several photos and no warts present, lol. I will have it tomorrow or Weds to confirm.


Very interested to hear what you think of it! Post something here to give us a heads up fella.......

I'm (.....and Ginault!) are expecting a very thorough review!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Very interested to hear what you think of it! Post something here to give us a heads up fella.......
> 
> I'm (.....and Ginault!) are expecting a very thorough review!


Yikes, pressure cooker situation! I'll do my best. |>

Wish I had a couple of my previous Sub homages to directly compare, but my memory of them is still mostly intact and I have lots of legacy photos as well. If the Ginault pics hold true to form, I don't think any of the now departed pieces would hold a candle to the Ocean-Rover anyway.


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

I've been back and forth, but I think I'll buy one and give it a shot. I'm a little nervous, but this watch looks sharp. 


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Yikes, pressure cooker situation! I'll do my best. |>
> 
> Wish I had a couple of my previous Sub homages to directly compare, but my memory of them is still mostly intact and I have lots of legacy photos as well. If the Ginault pics hold true to form, I don't think any of the now departed pieces would hold a candle to the Ocean-Rover anyway.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm also really interested in the review. This watch uses some pretty unique components, and will be as good as the people putting it together.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

I want one 


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Jeep99dad said:


> I want one
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i feel the sameeee


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

I just wish Ginault would come back and post here 


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Jeep99dad said:


> I just wish Ginault would come back and post here
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but I reckon they are reading every word. I swear that the blurb on their website has changed and is less riddled with hyperbole now......

......and until I started a thread (https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-ocean-rover-3833610.html) wondering about their watch there wasn't anything on here (well that I could see) and then they started this one. I'd say they are playing a clever game letting us do the profile raising?


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

Well judging by the 18 pages of piss and vinegar from the cool aid drinkers I would say it should scratch the rolly homage itch just about perfectly! 
I am daring myself to buy one now...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

What is so difficult about separating the marketing pitch from the actual watch? I can do it easily, yet for ordering one at $580 I am a "cool aid drinker". Speaking of corrosive opinions...

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

OldeCrow said:


> Well judging by the 18 pages of piss and vinegar from the cool aid drinkers I would say it should scratch the rolly homage itch just about perfectly!
> I am daring myself to buy one now...


Ok, so instead of ridiculing perfectly intelligent forum members, how about detailing the deficiencies of the watch for us? That would add some value.

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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> What is so difficult about separating the marketing pitch from the actual watch? I can do it easily, yet for ordering one at $580 I am a "cool aid drinker". Speaking of corrosive opinions...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk





Radar1 said:


> Ok, so instead of ridiculing perfectly intelligent forum members, how about detailing the deficiencies of the watch for us? That would add some value.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


ooooooh... ya... my comments weren't directed at you in any way, shape, or form, but thanks for misinterpreting them:rodekaart and demonstrating there are cool-aid drinkers on both sides of the isle.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The term "cool aid drinker" denotes someone who is gullible. So by all means tell us who it was directed at. The critics of the watch/company are gullible?? Sorry, that makes no sense.

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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> The term "cool aid drinker" denotes someone who is gullible. So by all means tell us who it was directed at. The critics of the watch/company are gullible?? Sorry, that makes no sense.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Haha, wait... You mean Mr. Jones and his followers might not have my best interests at heart? No way. It's so tasty. Mmmmm, kool-aid.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> Haha, wait... You mean Mr. Jones and his followers might not have my best interests at heart? No way. It's so tasty. Mmmmm, kool-aid.


I am just hoping you can land yours before the abdominal pain starts, lol.

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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

So who has ordered one so far ?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> So who has ordered one so far ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine will land tomorrow or Weds. Fast shipping considering the weekend and holiday today.

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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

I did. I've been having a shipping ordeal (100% my fault) that customer service has been excellent helping me with. My review may take a while due to this though.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> Mine will land tomorrow or Weds. Fast shipping considering the weekend and holiday today.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Let me know what you think when it arrives. I think I'll bite the bulllet instead of the Squale even if I have movement repair/service concerns. 
It truly looks beautifully made.

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## WreckDiver1321 (Sep 2, 2016)

I'll agree, all marketing aside, this looks like a really nice piece.

I stumbled on it a while back when I was looking at Sub homages. From the pics and the specs, there's a whole lot to like.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> Let me know what you think when it arrives. I think I'll bite the bulllet instead of the Squale even if I have movement repair/service concerns.
> It truly looks beautifully made.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Will do, Brice. I like it more than the new Squale. Hopefully it wears well for a 40mm. With lug-to-lug of 50mm I think it will. As for the movement, that's when being a 2824 clone should provide some security in terms of servicing. Now that Ginault has gone to this effort to build it I can only assume they have plans to put it in some other models.

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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

I went ahead and made the purchase last night. My wife had just told me I wasn't allowed to buy a Mustang Shelby 500GT, and I had a moment of defiance. Now I have to intercept it before she does, should of had it shipped to my work.......


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

FireMonk3y said:


> I went ahead and made the purchase last night. My wife had just told me I wasn't allowed to buy a Mustang Shelby 500GT, and I had a moment of defiance. Now I have to intercept it before she does, should of had it shipped to my work.......
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL! Welcome to the club - we should get t-shirts! Nothing gets me sweating more than when I forget to change specify my office as my shipping address. Were my wife to intercept an inbound watch, it would be deleterious to my health and to my marriage....


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Darwin said:


> LOL! Welcome to the club - we should get t-shirts! Nothing gets me sweating more than when I forget to change specify my office as my shipping address. Were my wife to intercept an inbound watch, it would be deleterious to my health and to my marriage....


Just tell her they are all cheap and problem solved! |>

Unless she finds out the real value of your entire collection, then your life would be over......o|


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Hornet99 said:


> Just tell her they are all cheap and problem solved! |>
> 
> Unless she finds out the real value of your entire collection, then your life would be over......o|


Indeed - my Seiko SBDX011 arrived at the house and I told her it was "only" a Seiko... You're right, too, about life being over. Someone here has a great sig that reads (paraphrasing) that his biggest fear is dying and his wife selling off his watch collection for what her told her they were worth!


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Darwin said:


> Indeed - my Seiko SBDX011 arrived at the house and I told her it was "only" a Seiko... You're right, too, about life being over. Someone here has a great sig that reads (paraphrasing) that his biggest fear is dying and his wife selling off his watch collection for what her told her they were worth!


Yep, that signature and the one about needing a bigger watch box (jaws film still in background......) are my favorites.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Mine was supposed to come this morning, but has been in suspended animation with Canada Post since 3:47 AM. We had a pretty fierce ice storm here today and it must have backed everything up. Hopefully tomorrow I can shed some <golden> grains of wisdom on it all, lol.

The hard lesson I learned recently was to just buy divers with black or blue dials. A couple of weeks ago I bought a very pretty Dan Henry 1963 with flashy silver sub-dials and my wife spotted it like a Harpey Eagle scoping out a sloth for lunch. I futilely protested that it was inexpensive (and it was) but maybe she thought it was a genuine vintage Breitling.


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## Crazy Cajun (Oct 19, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> Mine was supposed to come this morning, but has been in suspended animation with Canada Post since 3:47 AM. We had a pretty fierce ice storm here today and it must have backed everything up. Hopefully tomorrow I can shed some <golden> grains of wisdom on it all, lol.
> 
> The hard lesson I learned recently was to just buy divers with black or blue dials. A couple of weeks ago I bought a very pretty Dan Henry 1963 with flashy silver sub-dials and my wife spotted it like a Harpey Eagle scoping out a sloth for lunch. I futilely protested that it was inexpensive (and it was) but maybe she thought it was a genuine vintage Breitling.


Haha, yeah, black faced watches all look the same, but throw in a yellow,orange or white dial and first thing said is, "new watch?".


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

I've learned that she thinks all black dialed divers look the same, which is good as long as you keep buying black dialed divers. But once she picks them up, she can now spot a $2K watch from a $200 watch. About 2 months ago I bought a Seiko SLA015 MM300, it stood out like a sore thumb in the watch box. Once she picked it up, I tried to convince her it was a cheap Seiko, but she's played the game long enough to tell it was worth much more. I guess she was at least partially listening one of the times I explained why one watch cost 2K more than another. She turned the bezel, feeling it as she went, inspected the dial and exterior finish, and watched the second hand to check the beat rate. Should have never told her the difference!! That one cost me a pretty nice morganite ring.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Mine was supposed to come this morning, but has been in suspended animation with Canada Post since 3:47 AM. We had a pretty fierce ice storm here today and it must have backed everything up. Hopefully tomorrow I can shed some <golden> grains of wisdom on it all, lol.
> 
> The hard lesson I learned recently was to just buy divers with black or blue dials. A couple of weeks ago I bought a very pretty Dan Henry 1963 with flashy silver sub-dials and my wife spotted it like a Harpey Eagle scoping out a sloth for lunch. I futilely protested that it was inexpensive (and it was) but maybe she thought it was a genuine vintage Breitling.


I got a 1963 too, lovely little watch though in my case the wife was the one giving it as a present so safe on this occasion.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Luminated said:


> I got a 1963 too, lovely little watch though in my case the wife was the one giving it as a present so safe on this occasion.


Clearly a better approach than mine!


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## centurionavre (Mar 31, 2013)

Nice crisp looking piece. Too wordy on the dial though. 

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## Craustin1 (Apr 28, 2011)

Sorry about that Shelby, do it some day when you can 



FireMonk3y said:


> I went ahead and made the purchase last night. My wife had just told me I wasn't allowed to buy a Mustang Shelby 500GT, and I had a moment of defiance. Now I have to intercept it before she does, should of had it shipped to my work.......
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Craustin1 said:


> Sorry about that Shelby, do it some day when you can


Not to go too far off on a tangent, but I haven't completely given up yet. I have a 1966 mustang coupe and she loves it. I think if I can get her in the Shelby for a ride, there's still a chance.









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## Craustin1 (Apr 28, 2011)

Thats a looker for sure, I went through that with my wife, now she loves driving it when she can!


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Mine shipped out this morning, should see it by Friday or Saturday. Pictures and 350 word review to follow. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Mine should land any time now. I will post a couple of pics and initial impressions in advance of a full review to keep you peeps going.


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

FireMonk3y said:


> Mine shipped out this morning, should see it by Friday or Saturday. Pictures and 350 word review to follow.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi,

If the review is not to their liking, do you still have the discount applied to the watch? Is the rebate given upfront and they take your word for it or the review has to be made before?

I'm only asking because I wrote dozens of reviews on Amazon for various products and I was bullied by CS of a few brands for "less glowing" reviews a few times, even if I fully paid the product.

Thanks!

Seb


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The discount and review are handled on an honour basis, Seb. There is no imperative to provide glowing feedback if it is not warranted by the watch. Obviously, Ginualt expects very positive feedback and I am certain at this point have a lot of confidence in what they have built.


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> The discount and review are handled on an honour basis, Seb. There is no imperative to provide glowing feedback if it is not warranted by the watch. Obviously, Ginualt expects very positive feedback and I am certain at this point have a lot of confidence in what they have built.


OK,

Sounds good then!!

Looking forward to your pics/review Don!!

1st one of 2017!

S.

Sent from my Motorola StarTAC 70


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

smille76 said:


> Hi,
> 
> If the review is not to their liking, do you still have the discount applied to the watch? Is the rebate given upfront and they take your word for it or the review has to be made before?
> 
> ...


Like radar1 said, discount applied upfront. My impression is they are confident once you have the watch in hand, the quality and value will be apparent. I would have never done it if required to guarantee a great review. If the watch deserves a great review, it'll get it. If the watch sucks, then guess what.......Their confidence in their watch was the selling point for me. We'll see soon.

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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Mine should land any time now. I will post a couple of pics and initial impressions in advance of a full review to keep you peeps going.


Solid man.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The Ocean-Rover has landed, lads. Obviously a full review to come but I am completely blown away. This thing is an absolute stunner and impeccable quality. Ginault has knocked this one out of the park without a doubt. The lume is insane and the watch is light years nicer than any Steinhart Ocean One or Armida A2 I have owned (with all due respect to those brands). Not even in the same class, so don't hesitate at all. I just gave up my Raven Vintage 40 with a lot of trepidation, but absolutely no regrets now. Here are some teaser pics until I can get my review organised. Please excuse all the plastic still on watch. More to follow. |>


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> The Ocean-Rover has landed, lads. Obviously a full review to come but I am completely blown away. This thing is an absolute stunner and impeccable quality. Ginault has knocked this one out of the park without a doubt. The lume is insane and the watch is light years nicer than any Steinhart Ocean One or Armida A2 I have owned (with all due respect to those brands). Not even in the same class, so don't hesitate at all. I just gave up my Raven Vintage 40 with a lot of trepidation, but absolutely no regrets now. Here are some teaser pics until I can get my review organised. Please excuse all the plastic still on watch. More to follow. |>
> 
> View attachment 10406810
> 
> ...


Looks good! Can't wait to read the review and see some more photos.......


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

^ hot damn cuzzzz


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

Hi Don,

Congrats!!

Usually I'm not a sub-fan but this one is a looker for sure.

Cheers,

S.


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## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

Hmmm...

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

boatswain said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Go for it!


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## WreckDiver1321 (Sep 2, 2016)

That is one hell of a stunner. Every photo I've seen thus far looks fantastic. I'll be really interested to read a full review. Looks like Ginault built a winner here.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

How is the bracelet?clasp?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Is it worth $1300 price tag? It seems like you are blown away at $600, just curious...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Is it worth $1300 price tag? It seems like you are blown away at $600, just curious...
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I don't think $1300 is outrageous at all. It is exceptional.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> How is the bracelet?clasp?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, bracelet still in plastic. Too busy to spend a lot of time on it after it landed unfortunately. First impression of the clasp was a definite "wow". One of the nicest I have seen.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> I don't think $1300 is outrageous at all. It is exceptional.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Ok so you are telling me to buy it I am on the fence. Love the look for sure...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

You could wait for a full review, but my first impression is that I would buy it again with no hesitation at all. I have never owned a Rolex Sub, but it would very interesting for someone to do a side-by-side comparison.

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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> You could wait for a full review, but my first impression is that I would buy it again with no hesitation at all. I have never owned a Rolex Sub, but it would very interesting for someone to do a side-by-side comparison.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Yes, looking forward to a review and more pics

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Mikeman (Mar 13, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> The Ocean
> 
> Once again a Canadian leads the way! considering where its made one would think US members would be all over this one.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Seriously considering this. I sold my Cward that I received yesterday (i know I owned it for 3 hours) since I felt it was too big and the vintage c600 color was too brown(like makeup color ) so this is tickling me.
Also like the Monta ocean king w the eterna movement but much pricier at 1700 

What is the color of these markers hard to tell on pics is more yellowish ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> Seriously considering this. I sold my Cward that I received yesterday (i know I owned it for 3 hours) since I felt it was too big and the vintage c600 color was too brown(like makeup color ) so this is tickling me.
> Also like the Monta ocean king w the eterna movement but much pricier at 1700
> 
> What is the color of these markers hard to tell on pics is more yellowish ?
> ...


The markers convey as a nice, aged patina look. Goldish hue and not fake looking, as many that strive for a vintage look seem to be. Some sparkle from the gold grains in certain light/angles. Very tastefully done.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Looks impressive, looking forward to the review 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

jmanlay said:


> Seriously considering this. I sold my Cward that I received yesterday (i know I owned it for 3 hours) since I felt it was too big and the vintage c600 color was too brown(like makeup color ) so this is tickling me.
> *Also like the Monta ocean king w the eterna movement but much pricier at 1700 *
> 
> What is the color of these markers hard to tell on pics is more yellowish ?
> ...


I would have killed this at maybbeeeeeeee 2k.
Its a clean piece.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The Monta is a real stunner, but isn't it around $3500?


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> The Monta is a real stunner, but isn't it around $3500?


3K ish USD.
But a sweet piece.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Is it really 15.6 millimeters thick? It doesn't appear that way in the pictures. If it is that is very chunky for a 40 millimeter diameter.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Mikeman said:


> Radar1 said:
> 
> 
> > The Ocean
> ...


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> You could wait for a full review, but my first impression is that I would buy it again with no hesitation at all. I have never owned a Rolex Sub, but it would very interesting for someone to do a side-by-side comparison.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I have the 116610LV and recently been thinking about the 16610 or the 14060 in the used market. But this piece has been catching my eyes.

I am looking forward to the review.


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## centurionavre (Mar 31, 2013)

Does it skip the date function when pulling out the crown? (1 click or 2 click?)

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Are you all really surprised Radar1 loves it? Lol.. he's been defending it since day one 

We need a non biased review. Send it to get broken down and examined under a loupe to see what really makes it tick.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Couple of more pics for now.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Are you all really surprised Radar1 loves it? Lol.. he's been defending it since day one
> 
> We need a non biased review. Send it to get broken down and examined under a loupe to see what really makes it tick.


I know a nice watch when I see one. Your cynicism is not warranted at all.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> Is it really 15.6 millimeters thick? It doesn't appear that way in the pictures. If it is that is very chunky for a 40 millimeter diameter.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


13.75mm. And it feels thinner than that.


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## Mikeman (Mar 13, 2009)

FireMonk3y said:


> Mikeman said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe if I had the $7500 I spent on health insurance last year, I would have bought it sooner. Haha
> ...


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## Mikeman (Mar 13, 2009)

Mods please delete last post as when I try to edit it I get a blank screen..


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

centurionavre said:


> Does it skip the date function when pulling out the crown? (1 click or 2 click?)
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


Two clicks. They show one photo of a prototype dial with date, so the movement will have to accommodate that presumably.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Mikeman said:


> FireMonk3y said:
> 
> 
> > It was meant as a fun jibe but having to guys pay a you had to is no joke.
> ...


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

In for more gold lume. I wonder if someone finally made vintage lume on a sub that is useable


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Hows that enamel dial dude?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> In for more gold lume. I wonder if someone finally made vintage lume on a sub that is useable


It appears that they have done just that, AVS. Everyone should be advised that it wears very much like a 40mm. Some will love that, others may want something larger. I am going to do my best to adjust to a smaller size than I would usually wear.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Knoc said:


> Hows that enamel dial dude?


Killer! Little hard to get good photos because of the gloss but very rich looking for sure.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> It appears that they have done just that, AVS. Everyone should be advised that it wears very much like a 40mm. Some will love that, others may want something larger. I am going to do my best to adjust to a smaller size than I would usually wear.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Solid dude. Specs remind me of the owc 9411 at 40mm and 50mm l2l



Radar1 said:


> Killer! Little hard to get good photos because of the gloss but very rich looking for sure.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Cool man.


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Are you all really surprised Radar1 loves it? Lol.. he's been defending it since day one
> 
> We need a non biased review. Send it to get broken down and examined under a loupe to see what really makes it tick.


C'mon, he just got it and it looks great...how about a little congrats. I am not a sub fan but this is looking good.

Could do without the novel printed on the dial but the rest look stellar.

S.


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Unwarranted cynicism? They quote travelling from Alaska to Argentina for lume! Cynicism warranted.

Btw - congrats!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Unwarranted cynicism? They quote travelling from Alaska to Argentina for lume! Cynicism warranted.
> 
> Btw - congrats!


Pretty sure you questioned my credibility as well. Not cool.

I think the lume utilises gold sand in some manner. For all you know it was sourced in one of the two areas they mentioned.

I like the watch a lot. If that bothers you in some way, so be it.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Congrats mate, enjoy it to the max.



Radar1 said:


> Couple of more pics for now.
> 
> View attachment 10410242
> 
> ...


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

sriracha said:


> Unwarranted cynicism? They quote travelling from Alaska to Argentina for lume! Cynicism warranted.
> 
> Btw - congrats!


I was giggling so hard snorting when I read that. But regardless the claim, or over the top marketing, it actually made an impression. Now seeing the lume it is like a torch. I don't care so much if they sourced it from crazy wilderness or shop next door.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

you are correct I did not see 1775 was just 50%
1750 would be a good price, 3500 that is a very long shot.



Radar1 said:


> The Monta is a real stunner, but isn't it around $3500?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> you are correct I did not see 1775 was just 50%
> 1750 would be a good price, 3500 that is a very long shot.


It's into Tudor territory. Heady stuff for a micro.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> Pretty sure you questioned my credibility as well. Not cool.
> 
> I think the lume utilises gold sand in some manner. For all you know it was sourced in one of the two areas they mentioned.
> 
> ...


I don't care if you like it or not. We all like different things that can bias us. I still question their outrageous claims.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I was giggling so hard snorting when I read that. But regardless the claim, or over the top marketing, it actually made an impression. Now seeing the lume it is like a torch. I don't care so much if they sourced it from crazy wilderness or shop next door.


I think the key thing is to be able to simply separate the marketing semantics/jargon from the actual quality of the watch - which is stellar (a claim they make that is fully justified). Why some folks are utterly incapable of that is a little mind-boggling.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

sriracha said:


> I don't care if you like it or not. We all like different things that can bias us. I still question their outrageous claims.


Like what? Break it down for us. They used exuberant language (or someone did for them) but I see no lies. Disagree? What "outrageous" claim did they make? Called sapphire corundum? Said the watch is built in America? Said they built a 2824 clone? Gold sand in the hour markers? You'll have a tough time refuting any of it, even if the wording wasn't to your liking.

At the end of the day the watch holds up to what they say it is in terms of quality and components. How does that make me "biased"?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> Like what? Break it down for us. They used exuberant language (or someone did for them) but I see no lies. Disagree? What "outrageous" claim did they make? Called sapphire corundum? Said the watch is built in America? Said they built a 2824 clone? Gold sand in the hour markers? *You'll have a tough time refuting any of it,* even if the wording wasn't to your liking.
> 
> At the end of the day the watch holds up to what they say it is in terms of quality and components. How does that make me "biased"?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Exactly, which is why it's written that way. 
Let some others speak now. You've hijacked enough of this thread.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

sriracha said:


> Exactly, which is why it's written that way.
> Let some others speak now. You've hijacked enough of this thread.


Since he is the only one to buy one so far......the rest of dont have much to say except to offer conjecture

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

sriracha said:


> Exactly, which is why it's written that way.
> Let some others speak now. You've hijacked enough of this thread.


Speak all you want, just don't question my integrity and don't tell me when I can or cannot post. And back up your own claims if you want to be taken seriously. You haven't identified one aspect of the watch that the company spread falsehoods about.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

I think we also have a few more incoming pieces as well.
In addition, i've got an itch to replace my Steinhart Ocean 1 and i might just snatch this.
---
I get it. We've all got opinions. Drop the thoughts and dip. No need for the negativity.
(Homages stir up some damn strong emotions and i'll be the first to admit, the way the marketing words were dropped, it was bound to cause a stir)
I think we forget at times why we are here, the watches. No matter the Nixon to the Micros to the Tudor.
Way i see it, man put his money to his word and committed. 
Solid Radar.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

valuewatchguy said:


> Since he is the only one to buy one so far......the rest of dont have much to say except to offer conjecture
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I am seriously on the fence with this one the more I look at it. I might pull the trigger tonight or tomorrow. EEERRGG


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

My comments were subjective and tongue in cheek until taken waaaaaay too seriously. But I still maintain that Ginault claims should be proven if more of us are gonna put that kind of coin down. Not just eyeballed. Remember Olivier? I do. Been burned before.


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

sriracha said:


> My comments were subjective and tongue in cheek until taken waaaaaay too seriously. But I still maintain that Ginault claims should be proven if more of us are gonna put that kind of coin down. Not just eyeballed. Remember Olivier? I do. Been burned before.


Different story. Oliver stole their customers by not delivering the watches after they were paid.

AFAIK Ginault are legit and Don has a watch to prove it.

S.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

sriracha said:


> My comments were subjective and tongue in cheek until taken waaaaaay too seriously. But I still maintain that Ginault claims should be proven if more of us are gonna put that kind of coin down. Not just eyeballed. Remember Olivier? I do. Been burned before.


Tongue in cheek? Is that the best you have? You question people's credibility without any justification and you can expect some return fire. At this point I have the watch in hand and you don't, and as such my perspective counts a whole lot more than yours. End of.

What claims? The only one you have even a remote chance of questioning is the movement and I have direct assurances that they manufactured it in the States excepting four components. I certainly won't take the LOW road by assuming they are lying about it. Get serious here. Using "enhanced" marketing language that was also clearly subjected to a translator does not equate to lies or false claims. If you can prove otherwise then have at it. Suspect we'll be waiting quite awhile for you to produce anything remotely concrete.

Why assume this will all turn out as it did with Olivier?? That's just incredibly negative and uncalled for. What has Ginault done to warrant that comparison? Did they take anyone's money and not deliver a watch? Mine was delivered to Canada in very short order. Why would you even speculate on a future failure? That makes zero sense.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

smille76 said:


> Different story. Oliver stole their customers by not delivering the watches after they were paid.
> 
> AFAIK Ginault are legit and Don has a watch to prove it.
> 
> S.


Yep. Why anyone would make such an absurd comparison is ridiculous. Just shows the depths of the unfounded negativity.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Can we get a sense of how accurate the movement is?


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

sriracha said:


> Unwarranted cynicism? They quote travelling from Alaska to Argentina for lume! Cynicism warranted.
> 
> Btw - congrats!


OK. So, I've been biting my tongue for weeks here about this, but I guess I'll throw my two cents in.

Through the lens of someone who has a nine to five job in an office, travelling the world for lume (or more properly, sand to be mixed in the lume) sounds a bit extreme. It sounds ludicrous that someone would spend so much money just to search for some sand, or some such nonsense. It can't be true, they must be liars... But, you are making assumptions.

If I said that I travelled all over Asia the past month in search of the perfect 1964 Grand Seiko cal.430/43999, would you think I was crazy? Singapore to Tokyo and everywhere in between. I mean the airline ticket costs alone would be many times that of the value of the watch. But there is the assumption. You assume that you know who is doing the searching and you automatically (human nature) put them in your shoes. I have searched many cities across Asia for that watch and it isn't crazy, and I've only spent about $20-30 of my own money doing it.

If I put the makers of the watch in my shoes or similar circumstances then it makes perfect sense. I imagine them to have good main sources of income and for Ginault (the watch) to be a side project. If one of them happens to be in Argentina or Alaska on business or for vacation, and is dedicated to the project I can easily see him (or her) taking a side jaunt to look to see if the sand where he is looks better than what is being currently proposed for the watch. I mean, we aren't talking about difficult science in the field here. Step one: grab handful of sand, step two: take said sand home. Step three: compare. Step four: enjoy tax deduction for "doing business" on your vacation, if you are on vacation and paid for the trip.

So really that statement about searching the world over for sand has told us that a)one Ginault employee likes to travel or does so for a job, and b)they have put at least some effort towards getting the best materials they could find while probably working their day jobs.

The beauty (or horror, depending on how you look at it) of marketing is what happens in the consumer's mind when they translate a given statement into their world and set of values. The statement doesn't have to be false, it's the reader making assumptions on a true statement.

I actually found the sand statement to be slightly limited. Alaska and Argentina sound far apart, and I have no reason to doubt they traveled to both those places, and mainland US is in between, so their statement is easily true. (*was - just checked the website, it has been significantly revised with much more fact and much less flowery language). Grabbed three handfuls of sand? Yep I can see that. But they left out five continents. I'm sure they didn't leave them out by accident.

Lastly, why is everyone so caught up in the sand? Who gives a ****?

TL;DR
1) There is sand in the lume.
2) They want to convey the message that they really care about their product.
3) Can't we just move on and talk about more interesting aspects of the watch?

Sincerely,
A. Cynical Realist


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Can we get a sense of how accurate the movement is?


The certificate for mine says +3. I will confirm that over the next couple of days.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

Does anyone have an opinion on the use of the red second hand? For some reason it's the only thing throwing me off about this watch. Maybe I'm just too focused on it ???? 

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

jlow28 said:


> Does anyone have an opinion on the use of the red second hand? For some reason it's the only thing throwing me off about this watch. Maybe I'm just too focused on it ????
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


I kind of think it would look a little bland without it. Just the right amount of color.


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

aegir said:


> I kind of think it would look a little bland without it. Just the right amount of color.


Maybe so. It might grow on me, who knows.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

jlow28 said:


> Maybe so. It might grow on me, who knows.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


I like that red second hand - it beats down the text at the bottom of that dial and draws the attention away.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I like the red second hand a lot. It's pretty thin and goes very nicely with the gold colouration of the markers and other hands.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

I was going to wait until my review to point this out, however, I'm quite bored today, and I don't think anyone has done anything but complain about the text on the dial.

I, originally, was put off by the amount of text on the dial also, then I realized (as I was in a vintage watch shop) that Ginault had just taken the idea of homage to the next level. I mean, really comparing a Rolex sub to the Ginault dial gave me the sense that someone in the company has a really good sense of humor. Hell, half of their flowery marketing language on the Ginault website was there to justify the words used on the dial, which were specifically chosen to mirror not only the look, but loose meaning of the words on a Rolex Submariner dial.

Bravo Ginault. Well played. I smile whenever I see the words now, because they simply point out how ridiculous the words are on a Rolex. It was one of those little things that always bothered me about the Rolex but it seemed like no one else noticed.

Pics, shamelessly pilfered from the interwebs.


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## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

Man, I almost pulled the trigger on when.. Apparently I'm a sucker for decent pictures. But I somehow convinced myself to hold off until there's been a couple reviews posted.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

sriracha said:


> I don't care if you like it or not. We all like different things that can bias us. I still question their outrageous claims.


And I'd agree, we need to question their claims. I'd not noticed this particular claim until last week:

_"The material being used in making the gears has to be able to endure decades of tear and wear. While most of our fellow watchmakers in Europe and Asia use copper or brass, we developed our own copper alloy to make the powertrain gears. We call it GC31.

GC31 has strength almost equal to steel. It is antimagnetic. After brushing and polishing, it has a distinctive light reflection that is identical to gold shine"_

So, they developed their own alloy?! I find this hard to believe and so I emailed them to ask for more information, no response yet.


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## calwatchguy (Jun 23, 2015)

First, Radar, congrats on the watch. Glad to hear that after all the hoopla it's lived up to your expectations. 


Second, it appears they are better watch makers than ad writers. Maybe that's where it starts and stops. Not every one is a don draper. 

I look forward to more reviews and less banter that is way too negative for a watch forum. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Hornet99 said:


> And I'd agree, we need to question their claims. I'd not noticed this particular claim until last week:
> 
> _"The material being used in making the gears has to be able to endure decades of tear and wear. While most of our fellow watchmakers in Europe and Asia use copper or brass, we developed our own copper alloy to make the powertrain gears. We call it GC31.
> 
> ...


I would hazard a guess that one of them works in a machine shop (not watch related)... probably thought of using an alloy used in something else. I agree, developing their own alloy (for the sake of a watch) sounds quite over the top. In fact if they are developing alloys period, they would seem to be wasting talent making watches. Using novel materials from other industries sounds much more likely.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

aegir said:


> I would hazard a guess that one of them works in a machine shop (not watch related)... probably thought of using an alloy used in something else. I agree, developing their own alloy (for the sake of a watch) sounds quite over the top. In fact if they are developing alloys period, they would seem to be wasting talent making watches. Using novel materials from other industries sounds much more likely.


Developing and testing a new alloy is an expensive and complex process. I'm very surprised that a relatively small company would undertake this rather than simply buying off the shelf materials.


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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

I placed an order for one, I'm quite excited about it. I am a huge sub fan, having both a Squale 20 Atmos and 30 Atmos. They both fit me well because of the curved lugs, so I'm curious to see how the Ginault will fit my small wrist. I will be writing a detailed review soon after receiving, and will probably compare it with the 30 Atmos, as the dimensions are closer of the two Squale's.


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## Grahamelawton (Aug 16, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> The Ocean-Rover has landed, lads. Obviously a full review to come but I am completely blown away. This thing is an absolute stunner and impeccable quality. Ginault has knocked this one out of the park without a doubt. The lume is insane and the watch is light years nicer than any Steinhart Ocean One or Armida A2 I have owned (with all due respect to those brands). Not even in the same class, so don't hesitate at all. I just gave up my Raven Vintage 40 with a lot of trepidation, but absolutely no regrets now. Here are some teaser pics until I can get my review organised. Please excuse all the plastic still on watch. More to follow. |>
> 
> View attachment 10406810


It has a nice mix of Milsub & Maxi.

BTW-there is an option for a sterile dial. For those who want less, get a zero text dial and get it printed with whatever you want elsewhere. Quality watch that's custom for you.

I really like this and the only reason I am on the fence is because of cash flow.

@Radar1 - if you're in the GTA, send me a PM. I'd love to see it in person.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Grahamelawton said:


> It has a nice mix of Milsub & Maxi.
> 
> BTW-there is an option for a sterile dial. For those who want less, get a zero text dial and get it printed with whatever you want elsewhere. Quality watch that's custom for you.
> 
> ...


I am in Ottawa, Grahame. If in GTA I would have been very happy to show you the watch. Quite certain you will like it a lot if you take the plunge.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Sorry, double post.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Morning update: lume was still very visible after 12 hours. Accuracy is +/- 0 after setting it to my Marathon atomic wall clock last night at 11:00 pm.

Here are some additional pics. There are still some small pieces of plastic here and there on the metal (clasp area). It was basically hermetically sealed from the factory. Have never seen anything like it. Very impressive.


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Lookin damn good dude


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

At least in the pics it appears that they have done a better job with the color of the Faux vintage lume than others have been able to pull off. 

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

Although there is much hyperbole in the marketing for this watch, what stands out to me is the claim that they manufacture most parts of the movement in the US. 

I would love to know more about this. Knowing the industry, I am aware of only a couple companies that manufacture their own movement parts in the US, and because of the high monetary and time cost of doing so, they price their watches accordingly. 

Does anyone know where this company is based?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> At least in the pics it appears that they have done a better job with the color of the Faux vintage lume than others have been able to pull off.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


The vintage-style lume looks great in person. The pics don't lie. IMO they absolutely nailed it. Not too many watches at any price point that can make that claim when it comes to a vintage patina look for the lume. Most times it is an epic fail.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

MercerWatch said:


> Although there is much hyperbole in the marketing for this watch, what stands out to me is the claim that they manufacture most parts of the movement in the US.
> 
> I would love to know more about this. Knowing the industry, I am aware of only a couple companies that manufacture their own movement parts in the US, and because of the high monetary and time cost of doing so, they price their watches accordingly.
> 
> Does anyone know where this company is based?


I believe they are in California. Mine shipped out of Fremont, CA.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Morning update: lume was still very visible after 12 hours. Accuracy is +/- 0 after setting it to my Marathon atomic wall clock last night at 11:00 pm.
> 
> Here are some additional pics. There are still some small pieces of plastic here and there on the metal (clasp area). It was basically hermetically sealed from the factory. Have never seen anything like it. Very impressive.
> 
> ...


So is the plastic pieces suppose to be removed? if so, can it be removed cleanly?


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> I believe they are in California. Mine shipped out of Fremont, CA.


I am from the Bay. I wonder if they would be down to open house their operation for WUS members.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> So is the plastic pieces suppose to be removed? if so, can it be removed cleanly?


Yes, to be removed. In some places it left a little sticky residue that required rubbing off with a soft cloth (one was provided with the watch).


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I am from the Bay. I wonder if they would be down to open house their operation for WUS members.


I would send them an email and ask. John has been very responsive to my communications. The email is shown on their website.


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## WatchFan650 (Feb 22, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I am from the Bay. I wonder if they would be down to open house their operation for WUS members.


i'm like 20 minutes from there. if you are able to organize something i would be interested in attending.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

WatchFan650 said:


> i'm like 20 minutes from there. if you are able to organize something i would be interested in attending.


I think this is a great idea. Ginault could detail the watch fully for you guys and you could then report back to the rest of us. Go in with some specific questions that are of interest (movement, lume, USA manufacture of components, innovative alloys used, etc).


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Pulled the trigger. Will compare it against my 116610LV when I receive it.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

WatchFan650 said:


> i'm like 20 minutes from there. if you are able to organize something i would be interested in attending.


Right on, I will let you know when I get a reply.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I could care less about some of the "fantastical claims" in the marketing pitch. At the end of the day, now having one in hand, I can confirm that they are very nicely built. This sub homage blows away anything similar I have owned - admittedly I have not owned any of Bill Yao's products. I don't even care how the lume was mixed or sourced. Why? Because it is as about good as any I have seen - to include Seiko, Armida, Raven, etc. The application of whatever material is in use is also flawless. I cannot prove or disprove their claims about the movement or the manufacture of assorted parts in the USA. But I will say that having put it boldly on the dial, and posted it on their website (and here on the largest watch website in the world), they have left themselves wide open for a world of hurt (including serious legal challenge) if they haven't been truthful. I simply do not get why any company would do that. It would be *total corporate suicide* and would ensure their very swift demise after selling only a handful of very nice watches. I think some tempered caution is certainly advisable, but wholesale dismissal of what they have built is not. Just my opinion. If my review turns out to be mostly positive, it is because I like how they built the watch - not because I was offered a discount to presumably raise awareness of the product and quality on this forum. I made no agreements with Ginault to provide a strictly glowing review and anyone calling into question the objectivity of other forum members needs to take a step back, and a deep breath. I am not into assuming they are liars or the worst case scenario as a starting point. Just not the way I go about things. If it turns out that all (or even many) of their claims are mythical then I will be the first in line to question their tactics. To me that seems like the fairest and most rational approach. Your mileage may vary.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Pulled the trigger. Will compare it against my 116610LV when I receive it.


That comparison will be very interesting, though the Ginault cannot fairly be held to the same standard given the huge price differential. All the same, very much looking forward to your thoughts on it.

Accuracy: is still bang on at 13 hours (possibly + .5). It is well on its way to exceeding the spec they provided on the certificate. Maybe latter is all Photoshop BS too...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

I for one, am not "crediting fantastical claims that just make no sense." When the watch arrives, we'll see what it looks like and give it an honest review. As for MKII and Bill Yao, I'm currently wearing a Key West and can compare the Ginualt, when it arrives. I think people are getting way too worked up about this. It's got to be better than my ANKO with a crooked dial ring and Seiko movement that stops 2 or 3 times a day. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Let me be perfectly clear: I am not calling into question your objectivity without having yet read your forthcoming review; I am saying, however, that there is an obvious *appearance* of bias, and a strong likelihood of implicit confirmation bias. I would be disinclined to trust any paid review, and I absolutely invite others to share my skepticism in that regard.


We'll agree to disagree. You either give me credit for being able to remain objective when the review is done, or you are calling that into question in advance. It cannot work both ways.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

For me, going by the pics, the watch is badly let down by the very ordinary looking bezel: appears to be a painted metal insert with silver-painted numbers. At this price point (even with the discount), I want something better. For example, I can get a Borealis Bull Shark with a ceramic bezel (and a well-established Miyota 9015 movement) for under 500USD.

And I too am greatly put off by the fantastical hype.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

sriracha said:


> Are you all really surprised Radar1 loves it? Lol.. he's been defending it since day one
> 
> We need a non biased review. Send it to get broken down and examined under a loupe to see what really makes it tick.





hwa said:


> Let me be perfectly clear: I am not calling into question your objectivity without having yet read your forthcoming review; I am saying, however, that there is an obvious *appearance* of bias, and a strong likelihood of implicit confirmation bias. I would be disinclined to trust any paid review, and I absolutely invite others to share my skepticism in that regard.


You should question Radar1's objectivity. As sriracha mentioned, he has been Ginault's number 1 defender from the get go. There is no likelihood or implicit about it - his review would be textbook definition of confirmation bias and should be disregarded by any intelligent person.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

FireMonk3y said:


> I for one, am not "crediting fantastical claims that just make no sense." When the watch arrives, we'll see what it looks like and give it an honest review. As for MKII and Bill Yao, I'm currently wearing a Key West and can compare the Ginualt, when it arrives. I think people are getting way too worked up about this. It's got to be better than my ANKO with a crooked dial ring and Seiko movement that stops 2 or 3 times a day.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Couldn't agree more. Have nearly pulled the trigger on a MK II several times, including a new one at one point that was estimated to be a year-long wait. Be good to hear how the build quality compares from someone who actually has one from both makers in hand. If you tell me Bill's watch eats the Ginault for lunch, I will be very happy to respect that. I think I have owned enough pieces now to suggest that it likely won't be totally one-sided.

A side view.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

hwa said:


> Call me a cynic, too. The claims not only are fantastic, but fantastical. The most extreme ones are excused as "translated," but the name, McMurtry, and the claim that it's hand-built in the US and shipped from California, are incongruous with the translation explanation. If you've got all those highly-skilled American employees building the watch in America, seems like one of them could take a shot at editing the ad copy.
> 
> Let's discuss the sand for a moment. Here's what they say: "We have heard of the legend of a luminescent material that is not a product from the Swiss RC Tritec, the lume company, and is so expensive only the top antique clock and pocket watch restorers could afford and would be interested in using on their masterpieces. We travelled far to acquire this unique luminescent material." Okay, expensive lume, and they want to use it. Meanwhile, they acknowledge that it is "comparable to pure Superluminova C3." Why on earth would you travel to the far reaches of the earth specially to acquire something that is comparable to a product that can be readily obtained for far less money, that offers no improved performance? You don't, and you can't, not at this price point.​
> As for the movement, why would you take a base ETA 2824, modify it to claim it's in-house using all sorts of special stuff, including a proprietary, self-developed copper alloy, and then not end up with COSC certification? If you're so good that you can handle the "true test for a watchmaker" of setting jewels, which allegedly takes thousands of hours of training to master, why would you NOT spend the money to certify the awesomeness of your in-house movement, even while you're dropping piles of cash on the search for sand? Because the movement's nothing special, that's why.
> ...


OK. So here we go:

1) The name McMurty in conjunction with the bad translations - crossed my mind too (and I'm sure many others). Brings to mind a company I used to work for whose public face was much larger than the actual company. Makes me think that this is possibly a one or two man operation with all else outsourced.

2) Sand - please see my previous, who gives a **** post.

3) COSC certification means flying the watches to Switzerland and bowing to the Swiss. I think most here will agree that this is precisely what Ginault is trying to avoid. As far as self-certification goes, I'm afraid that nobody would care much so why waste time and money on a process when you are already basically doing it? I mean, the fact that you mention it shows how well the Swiss have built up their cachet with years and years of very expensive marketing.

4) Ginault should prove their claims (I believe this is your basic stance)... Really. How many manufacturers have you ever demanded proof from? Is your coffee really from Sumatra? Prove it Starbucks! It would be nice if we could get proof for everything under the sun, but it just ain't gonna happen, because for the most part people don't care.

5) Lastly, on the objectivity of WUS reviews. I think communities such as WUS are absolutely awesome for the fact that they are a bunch of people coming together that have a passion for something, yet no real incentive to do so. No one is getting paid to sit here and compose post after post. I would have to say that very few if any of us are financially better off for spending time on this site. Manu are perhaps profoundly worse off (financially, of course). It is because of this that you find truly objective reviews and good opinions. I would trust a WUS review over ANY review in ANY publication, whether it be print, internet, or any other media. Giving someone a discount on a watch does not make them biassed. It is also not the same as getting paid for a review. And a $6000 or so discount for some real world reviews on a completely geeked out site like WUS could pay dividends tenfold or more. It's cheap and smart marketing. Now "professional reviewers" on the other hand...

When is the last time you read a truly damning review in any publication? They don't exist. There is a reason for it. Take any publication, print is the easiest to see the ties, but I have faith the internet has the same ties if not slightly more obscured. Take and publication specializing in some facet. Watches, airplanes, fashion, whatever floats your boat. What's on the cover? Something for which there may be a "review" or blurb about in the publication. Now flip through the magazine and I guarantee you that you will find an ad placed by that same company. Usually a large lucrative ad. That's how they pick their main stories. Giving someone a discount might sway a few really really weak individuals (probably not the type you see here on WUS), but holding the purse-strings hostage on your employer gives you zero objectivity. If you write a bad review suddenly your employer doesn't get ad revenue, and you are out of a job.... but no publication would ever print that review, you would just be fired.

I'm going to stop ranting now, hopefully I have gotten my point across in semi-coherent fashion.

Cheers.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> You should question Radar1's objectivity. As sriracha mentioned, he has been Ginault's number 1 defender from the get go. There is no likelihood or implicit about it - his review would be textbook definition of confirmation bias and should be disregarded by any intelligent person.


Pure, unadulterated garbage. Did it ever occur to any of you sarcastic, jaundiced, jaded, cynical types that the watch is actually NICELY BUILT??? Oh, hadn't considered that in your immediate rush to negative judgement based purely on marketing semantics, huh? Lol.

Pssst - plenty of people on the thread like the watch. Better find somewhere to hide because several of them will be landing one very shortly and you will be left flailing wildly at several people. |>


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> That comparison will be very interesting, though the Ginault cannot fairly be held to the same standard given the huge price differential. All the same, very much looking forward to your thoughts on it.
> 
> Accuracy: is still bang on at 13 hours (possibly + .5). It is well on its way to exceeding the spec they provided on the certificate. Maybe latter is all Photoshop BS too...
> 
> View attachment 10417290


Of course, even if the OR is equipped with a Swiss ETA 2824 the movements in the two watches in terms of prices pose have a huge disposition so I will leave that part of the comparison out. The 3135 is just that much of a beast. But Ginault CS in our previous email exchanges sounded confident that "even going up against its big bro the 16610 the Ginault won't trail behind much" So I am interested to see if they can put their money to where their mouth is sort of speak.

Right on be interested to see how it performs after the 24hr cycle.


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## sriracha (May 2, 2014)

Any watch can be well made. I'd like to know if the movement is really made as they claim. That's the only item that can be proven or disproven. If not, that is fraud. Not even nonsensical marketing but plain outright fraud.


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

It would seem to me that no matter how nice the watch is, or turns out to be, if they are lying to get people to purchase it, the ends do not justify the means. 

If it were one of my watches generating this kind of negative publicity, you can bet I would be on here answering questions and making sure that I back up my claims about the watch I've made. In the absence of this from Ginault, many will continue to be skeptical at best.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

MercerWatch said:


> ...what stands out to me is the claim that they manufacture most parts of the movement in the US.
> 
> I would love to know more about this. Knowing the industry, I am aware of only a couple companies that manufacture their own movement parts in the US, and because of the high monetary and time cost of doing so, they price their watches accordingly.





hwa said:


> Call me a cynic, too. The claims not only are fantastic, but fantastical...
> 
> As for the movement, why would you take a base ETA 2824, modify it to claim it's in-house using all sorts of special stuff, including a proprietary, self-developed copper alloy, and then not end up with COSC certification? If you're so good that you can handle the "true test for a watchmaker" of setting jewels, which allegedly takes thousands of hours of training to master, why would you NOT spend the money to certify the awesomeness of your in-house movement, even while you're dropping piles of cash on the search for sand? Because the movement's nothing special, that's why...
> 
> And, if you want a real in-house auto from the US, get over to RGM and prepare to pay many thousands of dollars.


Let's parse what Ginault is claiming as its own movement.

"Why not use Tianjin Seagull ST2130 or Hangzhou 6300? We found one down side of the Chinese clones is consistency. In a random sample batch, we found the performances of the blank movements range from a wild variety. The durability of the movements were also in question. So if *we build them by ourselves and assemble them* in our controlled environment, it will be easier to keep quality in check and then to control the consistency of our calibers performance...

However, there are still some parts absent of domestic supplier. Those parts are *the hairspring, the mainspring, the red synthetic sapphire crystals also known as jewels, and the shock absorber*."

​Ginault carefully worded its BS marketing spiel to state that they _build _and _assemble _their movement - notice the explicit absence of the word _made -_and goes to emphasizes American-ness of their watch. Ginault implies that it uses parts from domestic supplier (note the singular) except for hairspring, mainspring, jewels and shock absorber which make up a good chunk of an automatic movement. So where is Ginault getting rest of the parts of the movement from? Are they sourcing one part or remaining parts from American supplier? Where is the American supplier getting the parts from? It'd be technically true that Ginault gets some of its parts from American supplier if it ignores the original source of parts supplied by the said American supplier.

Like others, I find it highly unlikely that Ginault is using American made parts in its movement. Add to its ridiculous claim of having developed an unique alloy for its movement parts, I smell another pile of BS worded to pander to "patriotism" of Americans to buy American goods.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Let me be perfectly clear: I am not calling into question your objectivity without having yet read your forthcoming review; I am saying, however, that there is an obvious *appearance* of bias, and a strong likelihood of implicit confirmation bias. I would be disinclined to trust any paid review, and I absolutely invite others to share my skepticism in that regard.


I think we are over thinking this issue. This is my mentality. When I first read this thread and saw the price tag of the OR at $1,300, even tho I was intrigued, there was no way I'd pull the trigger. A brand new company with no history, no reviews, and to top if off over the top marketing.....tsk tsk tsk

But with 55% off, I figured I'd give it a try. There is no promise made that I have to give it a positive review.

Isn't that very similar to what new restaurants do with Groupon offers? But on Yelp you can still read a whole bunch of negative ratings by reviewers of restaurants even though they used the discounted Groupon offers. End of the day, the discount only served as an incentive to give it a try but not an incentive to give a positive review.


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

RNHC said:


> Let's parse what Ginault is claiming as its own movement.Ginault carefully worded its BS marketing spiel to state that they _build _and _assemble _their movement - notice the explicit absence of the word _made -_and goes to emphasizes American-ness of their watch. Ginault implies that it uses parts from domestic supplier (note the singular) except for hairspring, mainspring, jewels and shock absorber which make up a good chunk of an automatic movement. So where is Ginault getting rest of the parts of the movement from? Are they sourcing one part or remaining parts from American supplier? Where is the American supplier getting the parts from? It'd be technically true that Ginault gets some of its parts from American supplier if it ignores the original source of parts supplied by the said American supplier. ​


It goes further than that. If you check on their website they say that "their" movements are: "cut, machined, assembled, and fine tuned in the United States". This goes beyond just building and assembling their movements in the US, but movement production - which is just one of the many parts of this I have a hard time swallowing.

We assemble one of our watches in the US, and I'm careful to note that its not "made in the US", its assembled here. They are different things, as companies like Shinola have found out.

I've tried to investigate making movements in the US, and it would require significant up front capital expenditures that would just be too great to justify for a Sub homage watch at this price point, in my opinion of course.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> I think the key thing is to be able to simply separate the marketing semantics/jargon from the actual quality of the watch - which is stellar (a claim they make that is fully justified). Why some folks are utterly incapable of that is a little mind-boggling.


Why should we? If Ginault's company culture is such that it actively markets its product in such BS manner, what else is bogus about the company? Can we trust that Ginault is not exaggerating or embellishing the actuality of its product like in its BS marketing effort?


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## zymphad (Dec 28, 2015)

Would sound hypocritical of me to ask for proof that this movement is in-house since I pre-ordered another diver using STP's 2824 clone. But if you're going to make that claim, I want to see the proof, some members here pointed out a possibility of using a Chinese clone and adding or adjusting them. 

We all know about Shinoda getting in trouble for their false marketing claims, is Ginault in the same boat?

Also disappointed that micro-brands insist on homages and less on original works. Should be more companies like Benarus and maybe Halios. Admittedly I bought a micro-brand that is homage, but it has enough changes and I just like it. But for my next watch, I'm waiting for a diver with an original design, one that isn't trying to be a homage to vintage watches.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Not at all. The fact that there is an implicit appearance of bias does not discount the possibility of actual objectivity. The problem is that actual objectivity is obscured by the appearance of bias. That's the problem with the appearance; it's discrediting.


I think you are perfectly capable of filtering out that "appearance of bias" based on a long-standing forum member who has good credibility. That's the distinction I would like to make. Again, why start out with the most negative perspective possible? Should I decline the discount offered as a way to improve my own optics? Heck no. I am not here to service any company's agenda and you are not correct to suggest that anyone is "being paid" - but I am not going to stand by and have my own character called into question by a couple of twits who haven't added a thing of value to the discussion. That's not directed at you in any way, as you at least make a solid argument from the naysayer side of the table and would never been characterised as a troll on the forum. But, at the end of the day calling everything the company has claimed into disrepute is not the safest approach to take. I fully expect them to carefully prepare a response to these questions, and if they don't they will have done themselves a huge disservice. Note that nowhere did I categorically state that everything they said was truth. I just don't have any means to prove/disprove - so am taking the high road. As Aegir has pointed out, asking for and getting absolutes from any company is tricky and that is even more so the case for corporate giants many times bigger than Ginault. When the dust settles I am quite sure I will be happy with the watch they built, which should be the primary focus here.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> the fact that group think operates in the watch world, as it does in all commercial ventures, is not proof that $500 is a good deal on a watch originally offered at $1300. I tell my kids all the time: Meeting in the middle is only a good endpoint if the two starting points are equally reasonable. If Ginault offered the watch at $2000, would you have paid $1000?


Well, that type of pricing tactic works for Invicta. Maybe Ginault aims to be Invicta of micro-brands. :-d


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I think we are over thinking this issue. This is my mentality. When I first read this thread and saw the price tag of the OR at $1,300, even tho I was intrigued, there was no way I'd pull the trigger. A brand new company with no history, no reviews, and to top if off over the top marketing.....tsk tsk tsk
> 
> But with 55% off, I figured I'd give it a try. There is no promise made that I have to give it a positive review.
> 
> Isn't that very similar to what new restaurants do with Groupon offers? But on Yelp you can still read a whole bunch of negative ratings by reviewers of restaurants even though they used the discounted Groupon offers. End of the day, the discount only served as an incentive to give it a try but not an incentive to give a positive review.


Absolutely. The company is back after a hiatus and clearly needs exposure. Just a matter of time before an established blog picks one up for review. The watch will stand or fall on its own merits and no discount is going to change that. I am looking forward to some of you guys receiving your watches to add real world opinion to the discussion instead of negative drivel that is based purely on conjecture.

Anyone know what rules enable the use of "Swiss Built" on time pieces and watch descriptions?


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## zymphad (Dec 28, 2015)

Good luck to those who bought one. I'm just confused why a new micro-brand would try to redo what has already been done. Steinhart and Christopher Ward have already beaten submariner clones to death, why bother is my big question. If you want to make a splash, why create the same ripples? Just do something different, w/o the convoluted explanations, be more transparent and honest. As someone else stated, why go to the lengths when it's already available cheaper? No shame in using Superluminova, or using an STP. The effort into redoing what has already been done, could have created a stunning new design instead, and saved on the costs by using what is already available.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Why should we? If Ginault's company culture is such that it actively markets its product in such BS manner, what else is bogus about the company? Can we trust that Ginault is not exaggerating or embellishing the actuality of its product like in its BS marketing effort?


If you have any irrefutable proof that all their claims are pure BS then please put it up. You have been challenged to do that already and epic fail is the best way to describe your response. We are all waiting on you to deliver something, anything, of real substance. Surely you have had enough time to get it done by now? I don't see any BS on the actual watch. It is not an inexpensive Invicta (a brand name you keep trying to interject), is undeniably nicer than all four Steinhart and Armida sub homages I have owned, and is a beautifully crafted watch. That's how it stands and if that displeases you, so be it. You stand as the epitome of Negative Nancy's at this stage, lol.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> If you have any irrefutable proof that all their claims are pure BS then please put it up. You have been challenged to do that already and epic fail is the best way to describe your response. We are all waiting on you to deliver something, anything, of real substance. Surely you have had enough time to get it done by now? I don't see any BS on the actual watch. It is not an inexpensive Invicta (a brand name you keep trying to interject), is undeniably nicer than all four Steinhart and Armida sub homages I have owned, and is a beautifully crafted watch. That's how it stands and if that displeases you, so be it. You stand as the epitome of Negative Nancy's at this stage, lol.


The burden of proof lies on the party that made the claims. Logic is not your strong suit, is it? You sure "lol" a lot for an angry old man. Is that bitter defensive kind of "lol"?


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## zymphad (Dec 28, 2015)

Maybe time to clone a different classic? I don't doubt the value and quality of Rolex, certainly doubt the price, but it still seems like an odd target for micro-brands. This is the brand that whenever is seen, the first thought isn't, that's nice, but is it real? Instead cloning a watch that is plagued with fakes... Hmm, there has to be another tried and true design that doesn't have the stigma of is it real with Rolex. I'd rather see a Oris clone for example.



hwa said:


> That's like asking why Hollywood keeps remaking movies and adding I, II, III, IV, etc ad nauseum. They keep doing it because the designs are popular and proven money-makers. Low risk, high yield. There's a buck to be made, and plenty of guys looking to make it.
> 
> I think you'll find that many micros play the homage game because it's a safer bet than creating a unique design that might not sell. Take a look at the micro offerings over the last several years and see which sold, and which of the micros are still in the business.
> 
> Kickstarter helped overcome that problem for some startups, but then there was a lot of pushback on the micros who kept using Kickstarter--somehow it seemed to be discrediting to continually need to crowd source production funds. And, of course, the Kickstarter game is a bit of a race to the bottom; hard to sustain a business when you're selling that cheap.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Truly, I hope you like it, and I hope the watch turns out to be a terrific value. I'm not a "told you so" kind of guy--nobody benefits from that--so I prefer to err on the side of raising questions on the front end.


Please read my post again. I can only comment in a material way on the apparent quality of the watch, which IMO is very good. At no time did I categorically state that everything in the marketing spiel is gospel. I don't know that. You (or anyone else) "telling me so" later isn't going to hold any water, sorry. My stance from the start is to be prudently cautious and let the company step up. That, and assess the actual quality of the piece they have built. The latter part seems pretty good to my eye, so now the ball is in Ginault's court - at least for the restless people who want their heads on a platter. They told me they were delivering a quality watch to me at what now seems like a very solid value, and that's what they have done. Anything beyond that is gravy, and a wait-and-see approach for me. I hope they can dispel the negativism in some satisfactory manner. I think we both know that there are certain "types" who will never be happy with the answers provided anyway. For now I am going to enjoy the watch.


----------



## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

RNHC said:


> The burden of proof lies on the party that made the claims. Logic is not your strong suit, is it? You sure "lol" a lot for an angry old man. Is that bitter defensive kind of "lol"?


Indeed, the burden of proof lies on the manufacturer, who is oddly absent.

But I believe your second statement is an example of an ad hominem attack, no?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> They keep doing it because the designs are popular and proven money-makers. *Low risk, high yield*...


Except if what Ginault is claiming true, Ginault must and should have sunk significant amount of capital in its effort and, therefore, it's already high risk, not low risk. So why is Ginault taking such a high risk for a mere Sub clone?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> The burden of proof lies on the party that made the claims. Logic is not your strong suit, is it? You sure "lol" a lot for an angry old man. Is that bitter defensive kind of "lol"?


Nice copout/additional fail. Over and out thou great logical demigod. "Ignore" button commence countdown...


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Nice copout/additional fail. Over and out thou great logical demigod. "Ignore" button commence countdown...


If you had studied harder in school, you'd know that it's not a cop out nor a fail. The whole scientific method is based on it.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Cigarbob said:


> But I believe your second statement is an example of an ad hominem attack, no?


One of many he has offered up. Usually the defining proof that someone is out of ideas, or more likely never had any to start with. A quick browse of his "contributions" to the forum shows repeated and unwarranted personal attacks on several members.

I agree with you that Ginault should step up.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

@ RADAR1.............I think as long as the watch meets or exceeds your expectations and you are happy with your purchase then it's got to be a winner.|>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Well, without rehashing all the stuff that's come before, I don't know that Ginault is taking such a high risk, which is my point. Building a Sub homage is not terribly risky; buying one for the price of the Ginault, when Ginault won't answer the reasonable doubts raised by discerning watch enthusiasts, is the risky part.


Is it possible they plan on expansion and the movement will form the base for additional models? Just throwing it out there...

I can paste their response to my questions about the movement into this thread (though I have already paraphrased that). What is required on their part as irrefutable proof? I think someone should define the ground rules for that right now. Then we can chase the % origins of the parts in so-called "Swiss Made" pieces while we're at it.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> One of many he has offered up. Usually the defining proof that someone is out of ideas, or more likely never had any to start with. A quick browse of his "contributions" to the forum shows repeated and unwarranted personal attacks on several members.


Such drama. Should I be flattered or creeped out that you have been extensively reading my forum contributions as you put it? I am leaning toward being creeped out.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SHANE 1000 said:


> @ RADAR1.............I think as long as the watch meets or exceeds your expectations and you are happy with your purchase then it's got to be a winner.|>


I am definitely happy with the watch, Shane. Thanks for that.

On a side note: can anyone comment on how a Chinese ETA clone winds? I have never owned one and wonder if it could shed some light here. This one winds exactly the way all of my 2824's have. Which is to say with fairly significant resistance when turned.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Such drama. Should I be flattered or creeped out that you have been extensively reading my forum contributions as you put it? I am leaning toward being creeped out.


In reality, you should be ashamed. Seriously - I am quite surprised your bitter attitude hasn't gotten you banished ages ago.


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## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> One of many he has offered up. Usually the defining proof that someone is out of ideas, or more likely never had any to start with. A quick browse of his "contributions" to the forum shows repeated and unwarranted personal attacks on several members.
> 
> I agree with you that Ginault should step up.


I think that only Ginault can answer the questions about manufacturing. I think that without their input, there will be considerable controversy about the movements and lume.

Have you asked them to respond to this thread that they started?


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> Is it possible they plan on expansion and the movement will form the base for additional models? Just throwing it out there...
> 
> I can paste their response to my questions about the movement into this thread (though I have already paraphrased that). What is required on their part as irrefutable proof? I think someone should define the ground rules for that right now. Then we can chase the % origins of the parts in so-called "Swiss Made" pieces while we're at it.


I have no doubt that it looks like a nice watch and that you like it.

I would like to hear what they say in response to your question about the movement origins though. That's the sticking point for me. There's a certain lack of transparency here, that's frankly quite obvious from my perspective.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Following on from a suggestion about contacting Ginault directly, seeing as they are reticent to engage here, I emailed them this:_
Hi, 
I've seen your website and the watch you have for sale and I was very interested to know more about the movement, especially the gears and the copper alloy you've developed yourselves:

*The material being used in making the gears has to be able to endure decades of tear and wear. While most of our fellow watchmakers in Europe and Asia use copper or brass, we developed our own copper alloy to make the powertrain gears. We call it GC31. **GC31 has strength almost equal to steel. It is antimagnetic. After brushing and polishing, it has a distinctive light reflection that is identical to gold shine.*

Is there any more you can tell me? 
Regards 
__Me. _
​
I received this response:

_Bill, _​_Thank you for your email and interest in our Ocean Rover. _​_We know many members would like to learn more about our Caliber 7275. Let me first say, the design is no secret. It is based on the decade old 2824 design. We will be doing a detailed introduction on the movement as well as other write ups introducing the other components of the Ginault Ocean Rover. _​_We hope as we role out these write ups members can get a more in depth understanding of the journey Ginault took on. But with our limited posts allowed each month we have to choose carefully the materials to feature which would draw the most attention for members. _​_best regards,_​_John McMurtry_​
I have to say that I was slightly disappointed with the response (which felt like they were avoiding answering the question) and surprised that they are limited in the number of posts.


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Just a quick teaser. I'll answer any questions that I can, but don't have time to get in a pissing contest over the things I can't (where the movement was made). Review to follow after I've had some time to check it out.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

FireMonk3y said:


> Just a quick teaser. I'll answer any questions that I can, but don't have time to get in a pissing contest over the thing I can't. Review to follow after I have some time to check it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Such a tease!

.......the Ginault doesn't look too bad in this company. Still think that that red seconds hand and the aged lume were bad design choices.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> I have to say that I was slightly disappointed with the response (which felt like they were avoiding answering the question) and surprised that they are limited in the number of posts.


I imagine it's hard to tout the high quality American-ness of their watch if Ginault states so-so % of movement is sourced from China and other foreign countries. I also am surprised that they are limited to a certain number of posts. Perhaps a moderator can confirm this? I thought having a paying business account would entail more privileges than less.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> I don't know that Ginault is taking such a high risk, which is my point. Building a Sub homage is not terribly risky; buying one for the price of the Ginault, when Ginault won't answer the reasonable doubts raised by discerning watch enthusiasts, is the risky part.


Like I've said, if half of what Ginault claims it did is true, it is taking a high risk - as in significant capital outlay that it may not recoup. Like others have said, it doesn't make sense financially to do what Ginault claims it did if its goal was to simply make a decent quality Sub clone. So either Ginault is BS'ing or has zero business acumen.


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

RNHC said:


> I also am surprised that they are limited to a certain number of posts. Perhaps a moderator can confirm this? I thought having a paying business account would entail more privileges than less.


There is a limit on the number of threads a Sponsor can start in a month. They are free to contribute to those threads freely though.


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## wzkwok (Oct 8, 2015)

Is it just me or does the Ocean Rover appear to suffer from "short minute hand syndrome"?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Bradjhomes said:


> There is a limit on the number of threads a Sponsor can start in a month. They are free to contribute to those threads freely though.


They mentioned the thread limit and it was my sense that a new thread would be started. I don't think a little patience is asking too much from some members.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

MercerWatch said:


> I have no doubt that it looks like a nice watch and that you like it.
> 
> I would like to hear what they say in response to your question about the movement origins though. That's the sticking point for me. There's a certain lack of transparency here, that's frankly quite obvious from my perspective.


They said they would be posting more while respecting posting limitations imposed on sponsors. That is beyond my jurisdiction and I have no reason to think they won't craft a thread and divulge further details. I don't make the assumption that they are disingenuous.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Cigarbob said:


> I think that only Ginault can answer the questions about manufacturing. I think that without their input, there will be considerable controversy about the movements and lume.
> 
> Have you asked them to respond to this thread that they started?


Yes I have. Please see my previous post. I was assured that questions will be addressed.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

With all respect, their claims are not fantastical.

Let us not ignore the low-volume American companies building 2824 clones in the U.S.

You know, the folks who put their upgraded U.S. made 2824 clones into 16610 subs? With bezels "machined by gun makers?" Y'know, the ones priced just like this Ginault... ;-)

Saying Ginault's claims are impossible because all of the development outlay would have to be fielded by them is silly:


It accepts the marketing that Ginualt developed everything. The marketing's clearly hyperbolic.
It ignores what's been available for several years.
All that said, the watch looks great. |>|>|> Proper hand height and dial finish go a long way. Can we get a macro of the pearl? 

I love the spoof of the Rolex dial verbiage and hope the marketing is somehow tongue-in-cheek! :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

As Bradjhomes said, Ginault is free to post in the thread it already started. The skepticism expressed in this thread can easily be addressed and assuaged by Ginault. So why isn't Ginault answering our questions? Is it that they don't have any good answers that don't undermine their BS claims or they don't really give a hoot as long as they get a couple of suckers to fall for their schtick?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Such a tease!
> 
> .......the Ginault doesn't look too bad in this company. Still think that that red seconds hand and the aged lume were bad design choices.


Those are purely personal preferences, which can easily be respected. I like these design choices. And the choice of sword hands.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> I love the spoof of the Rolex dial verbiage and hope the marketing is somehow tongue-in-cheek! :-d


You think clumsy cluttered wording on the dial and the BS marketing spiel is a joke? Well, you may be right since Ginault itself seems like a joke. ;-)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Interesting thread. I haven't seen a defense this rabid since the Alamo.

Perhaps someone could share information about the clasp? I note that there are no micro-adjustment holes. How is adjustment performed?

Regards,
Alysandir


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> Interesting thread. I haven't seen a defense this rabid since the Alamo.
> 
> Perhaps someone could share information about the clasp? I note that there are no micro-adjustment holes. How is adjustment performed?
> 
> ...


Really? How about the rabid attack?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Really? How about the rabid attack?


If you feel my comments are directed at you, that's on you. If you then also choose to be offended by them to the point that you're defending yourself to me, that's also on you.

Now, about that clasp?

Regards,
Alysandir


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

RNHC said:


> You think clumsy cluttered wording on the dial and the BS marketing spiel is a joke? Well, you may be right since Ginault itself seems like a joke. ;-)


I hope it's in the spirit of hwa's awesome dials :-d:-d:-d If so, :-!

If a micro came out tomorrow w/ a dial reading _Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified_ we'd all LOL at the polysyllabic excess! :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> If a micro came out tomorrow w/ a dial reading _Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified_ we'd all LOL at the polysyllabic excess! :-d


Probably true. We'd laugh then ask Officially Certified by whom?


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Those are purely personal preferences, which can easily be respected. I like these design choices. And the choice of sword hands.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Yep, personal preferences is the thing there. I think that keeping the sword hands and using a white lume would have been better as it doesn't look like a vintage watch IMHO. Personally I think the red seconds hand cheapens the looks, maybe a red tipped hand would have been enough?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> If you feel my comments are directed at you, that's on you. If you then also choose to be offended by them to the point that you're defending yourself to me, that's also on you.
> 
> Now, about that clasp?
> 
> ...


I am asking you why you take no exception to the rabid attacks on the company (and anyone who dares to buy or consider buying the product). That's on you.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Alysandir said:


> If you feel my comments are directed at you, that's on you. If you then also choose to be offended by them to the point that you're defending yourself to me, that's also on you.
> 
> Now, about that clasp?
> 
> ...


I'm with Radar1 here, whilst he has made a spirited defense of Ginault and tried to be fair about it there has been a lot of mud slinging against them without any intelligent debate.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Yep, personal preferences is the thing there. I think that keeping the sword hands and using a white lume would have been better as it doesn't look like a vintage watch IMHO. Personally I think the red seconds hand cheapens the looks, maybe a red tipped hand would have been enough?


I think a red tip would have also looked great. I like some red against a gloss black dial. Part of the attraction to the Certina DS Action for me. Closeup photos of the Ginault exaggerate the seconds hand, IMO. It is actually pretty subtle in person.


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

RNHC said:


> As Bradjhomes said, Ginault is free to post in the thread it already started. The skepticism expressed in this thread can easily be addressed and assuaged by Ginault. So why isn't Ginault answering our questions? Is it that they don't have any good answers that don't undermine their BS claims or they don't really give a hoot as long as they get a couple of suckers to fall for their schtick?


This is right on. As a past sponsor of the forum I was limited to the number of threads I could start, but once those threads are started you can post in them as much as you want. The reason Ginault are not posting here is a mystery...but less so if you consider that they either have no good answers or so not speak English very well.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I'm with Radar1 here, whilst he has made a spirited defense of Ginault and tried to be fair about it there has been a lot of mud slinging against them without any intelligent debate.


100%. |>

Someone I respect a great deal sent a small list of theories over the true nature of the backlash against the company and their product in a PM. It was hilarious and right on point. I wish I could share it.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Alysandir said:


> If you feel my comments are directed at you, *that's on you*. If you then also choose to be offended by them to the point that you're defending yourself to me, that's also on you.





Radar1 said:


> I am asking you why you take no exception to the rabid attacks on the company (and anyone who dares to buy or consider buying the product). *That's on you*.


You seem to like repeating the original poster's words back at the poster in your replies. I can tell you subscribe to Pee Wee Herman School of Debate and Logic, i.e., the famous "I know you are but what am I" defense. :-d


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> I am asking you why you take no exception to the rabid attacks on the company (and anyone who dares to buy or consider buying the product). That's on you.


Fascinating. First you continue presume that I'm talking about you, even after I observe that I never mentioned you by name.

Second, you assume that the my comment about "rabid defense" was inherently negative, when the reality is that it was a neutral comment that could be either interpreted positive or a negative. (BTW...the defense of the Alamo, something we Americans cherish and are inspired by, was a dead giveaway that it wasn't negative.)

Third, even after observing that you're responding to an attack when none was given, you continue to respond as if you're being attacked and demand to know why I have nothing to say about what you refer to as "rabid attacks." Which in the context of my comments (see second point above), makes absolutely no sense.

And fourth, and perhaps most interesting of all, I've twice invited you answer a legitimate question about the watch's clasp...and both times you were so focused on putting me in my place that you didn't even bother to answer. Which is indeed interesting for someone who has been so vigorously extolling the virtues of this watch. I figured you'd be more than pleased to talk about it. Apparently I figured incorrectly.

Good day to you, sir. I hope you got what you wanted out of this exchange.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> Fascinating. First you continue presume that I'm talking about you, even after I observe that I never mentioned you by name.
> 
> Second, you assume that the my comment about "rabid defense" was inherently negative, when the reality is that it was a neutral comment that could be either interpreted positive or a negative. (BTW...the defense of the Alamo, something we Americans cherish and are inspired by, was a dead giveaway that it wasn't negative.)
> 
> ...


Happy trails. I have to say you've got your approach all wrong. |>


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

MercerWatch said:


> The reason Ginault are not posting here is a mystery.



:think: *Maybe no answer because They're in search of diamond dust right now for model number 2's lume.:-d

OK I couldn't resist that and I'm only kidding.*


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

RNHC said:


> You seem to like repeating the original poster's words back at the poster in your replies. I can tell you subscribe to Pee Wee Herman School of Debate and Logic, i.e., the famous "I know you are but what am I" defense. :-d


How about you take a little break from this thread. If or when the sponsor comes back to explain the movement you can have your say but for now you are really just stirring the pot.

I am not going to moderate a sponsor tread or any other thread for that matter when there is a sensible debate taking place but this one is morphing into a mess. Keep it civil.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Alysandir (Jun 29, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Happy trails. I have to say you've got your approach all wrong. |>


And that's three responses without discussing the clasp.

Regards,
Alysandir


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

MercerWatch said:


> This is right on. As a past sponsor of the forum I was limited to the number of threads I could start, but once those threads are started you can post in them as much as you want. The reason Ginault are not posting here is a mystery...but less so if you consider that they either have no good answers or so *not speak English very well*.


But, but, but Ginault is red-blooded, flag waving, apple pie eating 'Murican company that wants fellow 'Muricans to buys its watches because it's 'Murican and not some cheap Chineese junk! How dare you to say that us 'Muricans don't speak English very well? ;-)


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Wow. I turned my phone off for a few hours and it got thick in here.

You guys do realize this is just a watch right? 

Diamond dust?! I'm in! Hahaha..... Of course then everyone will all get pissed when they figure out that the diamond dust was scraped off from some industrial grade sandpaper. All along they assumed some poor bastard was breaking his back in a mine in South Africa for his watch, and no one could possibly make a watch as this, with diamond dust, for so cheap! Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> I think a red tip would have also looked great. I like some red against a gloss black dial. Part of the attraction to the Certina DS Action for me. Closeup photos of the Ginault exaggerate the seconds hand, IMO. It is actually pretty subtle in person.


I've just received a Squale 1545 classic and this is the preferred look for me if you have to have a sub clone. Black with only the white of the lume, silver hints from dial / indices and minimal text |>.



But it's all personal preference, some people like Hublots.........:-d


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

I have to admit the Ocean Rover beside the MkII looks the more expensive piece, based solely on this photo it's finish looks to be a level or two above. As for the why do a Sub homage well that's simple... they sell but very few try to produce something that looks as well finished as the Rolex, will be interesting to see that comparison but despite the PR Bull I wouldn't be that surprise to hear the OR is nearly as good and at a fraction the price.

p.s. I actually like the length of the minute and and the vintage lumes.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Quicksilver said:


> How about you take a little break from this thread. If or when the sponsor comes back to explain the movement you can have your say but for now you are really just stirring the pot.
> 
> I am not going to moderate a sponsor tread or any other thread for that matter when there is a sensible debate taking place but this one is morphing into a mess. Keep it civil.


Sticking up for a fellow Canuck? :-! I think it's going to be a long, long time before (or if, as you've said, ever) the sponsor will come back to this thread and explain anything so if I do take a break until then as you've suggested, it'd be a long, long break. Forgive me if my sense of humor seemed uncivil. I was just trying to have a bit of fun in the meanwhile, Mr. Moderator, sir.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> I've just received a Squale 1545 classic and this is the preferred look for me if you have to have a sub clone. Black with only the white of the lume, silver hints from dial / indices and minimal text |>.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's all personal preference, some people like Hublots.........:-d


Fair enough. But now I have to buy a Squale. That's on you.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> 100%. |>
> 
> Someone I respect a great deal sent a small list of theories over the true nature of the backlash against the company and their product in a PM. It was hilarious and right on point. I wish I could share it.


Ooooow, intriguing :think:, why can't you share it?

......BTW don't get me wrong here I'm not a fan of Ginault and the way that they are approaching their marketing of this watch. The hyperbole, the price reduction for reviews (rather than going to bloggers, etc), the premium pricing for something that you can essentially get cheaper elsewhere from established brands and what would appear to be rather suspect claims (I'm talking about developing their own alloys......) have made me very cynical of them. But, I'd not want to see this debate dragged down into the gutter......

Interestingly I reached out to a well respected reviewer asking if they'd be doing anything on this watch, their response was a negative; not interesting and some other choice comments that weren't positive.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Luminated said:


> I have to admit the Ocean Rover beside the MkII looks the more expensive piece, based solely on this photo it's finish looks to be a level or two above. As for the why do a Sub homage well that's simple... they sell but very few try to produce something that looks as well finished as the Rolex, will be interesting to see that comparison but despite the PR Bull I wouldn't be that surprise to hear the OR is nearly as good and at a fraction the price.
> 
> p.s. I actually like the length of the minute and and the vintage lumes.


The minute hand exactly hits the end of the marker and that works for me.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Fair enough. But now I have to buy a Squale. That's on you.


Apologies for that, but then you could do a back to back comparison of the two watches, that are essentially following the same theme and see if the Ginault actually is worth double the price (at list.....) of the Squale.......


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Alysandir said:


> And that's three responses without discussing the clasp.
> 
> Regards,
> Alysandir


The clasp is pretty impressive. I'll post some pictures when I get a chance. It's adjustable similar to one of the adjustable Omega clasps. Nice quality, and good finish. Only wish the had engraved the logo.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Ooooow, intriguing :think:, why can't you share it?
> 
> ......BTW don't get me wrong here I'm not a fan of Ginault and the way that they are approaching their marketing of this watch. The hyperbole, the price reduction for reviews (rather than going to bloggers, etc), the premium pricing for something that you can essentially get cheaper elsewhere from established brands and what would appear to be rather suspect claims (I'm talking about developing their own alloys......) have made me very cynical of them. But, I'd not want to see this debate dragged down into the gutter......
> 
> Interestingly I reached out to a well respected reviewer asking if they'd be doing anything on this watch, their response was a negative; not interesting and some other choice comments that weren't positive.


At the end of the day I am after a nicely built Sub homage after going through a few. I can tell you the quality is solid, the accuracy is stellar, and hopefully it will fit the bill for me (if I can adjust to a smaller piece). I am not sure you are going to find a nicer homage for less money. In fact, I am very interested to hear the comparison comments with the MK II. If it's even remotely close it's a win for the folks who buy one. All the passive-aggressive crap is a waste of everyone's time.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Alysandir said:


> And that's three responses without discussing the clasp.
> 
> Regards,
> Alysandir


I don't respond well to passive-aggressive and/or obtuse criticism. Don't take veiled shots at people and then expect them to provide you with info. Over and out.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

FireMonk3y said:


> Only wish the had engraved the logo.


It's pretty perplexing that the watch comes with unsigned blank clasp considering the level of attention Ginault claimed to have given to the watch. Perhaps getting the luminous gold sand from the ends of the Earth was more costly than expected and Ginault simply ran out money to engrave their logo on the clasps. :-d


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Wow this thread has taken a turn for the worst. I'm not sure if the marketing is BS or absolutely true but i hope the watch manufacturer will jump back in and clear some of this up because the current state of our dialogue is only making me less interested in this piece. 

I think the worst case we have here is that Ginault is a another Dan Henry.....meaning a chinese HQ with a local frontman. But Dan Henry watches are still seen as good quality for the price and I think we will find the same for Ginault. 

At the discounted price the Rover is about $150 more than a Steinhart OVM. From pics alone i can discern at least $150 more value. At the retail price of $1299 I'm not sure if there is $900 more value though.....but I'll reserve final judgement until the guys that have one in hand will review it. 

In some ways a review after just hours or days of having the watch is very biased in favor of the watch company. Remember your wife thought of you as sexy at one time also. 30 days of daily wear is a better litmus test for my preference.

gent·le·man
ˈjen(t)lmən/
noun
1. a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.

Let's work on living up to this standard. This is just a watch and most of us live charmed lives to be able to discuss the merits of a $1300 watch.....or consider buying one when we probably have a stable full of others we dont wear often enough. 

I hope the watch is great and the company is successful. It will only put pressure on others to provide more value for the dollar. NH35s for $500 won't look as appealing if the Ginault experiment works.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> At the end of the day I am after a nicely built Sub homage after going through a few. I can tell you the quality is solid, the accuracy is stellar, and hopefully it will fit the bill for me (*if I can adjust to a smaller piece*). I am not sure you are going to find a nicer homage for less money. In fact, I am very interested to hear the comparison comments with the MK II. If it's even remotely close it's a win for the folks who buy one. All the passive-aggressive crap is a waste of everyone's time.


This is the reason I traded the GMT2 and why I won't be buying this at either price no matter how nice it is, 42mm is my lower limit.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Luminated said:


> This is the reason I traded the GMT2 and why I won't be buying this at either price no matter how nice it is, 42mm is my lower limit.


Fair enough. I am trying to convince myself that 36mm used to be the gold standard so this one is massive. :roll:


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

RNHC said:


> It's pretty perplexing that the watch comes with unsigned blank clasp considering the level of attention Ginault claimed to have given to the watch. Perhaps getting the luminous gold sand from the ends of the Earth was more costly than expected and Ginault simply ran out money to engrave their logo on the clasps. :-d


In the picture you can see how the bracelet size is adjustable through the clasp. By pulling on the bracelet, it unlocks it, and allows for the bracelet to be adjusted larger or smaller. Once the desired length is found snap it back up and your in business. It's very clean looking and has a very smooth action. This may be the way current subs are, not really sure. Very efficient design.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The clasp adjustment is fantastic and without all the bulk and discomfort of a huge ratcheting system.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Thanks for sharing that pic. I was intrigued as to how micro adjustments could be made. It looks like a really great quality clasp, definitely better than anything similar at this price point.

I'm very tempted to order one but I think I'll hang on until there have been some video reviews.

Thanks to Radar1 for sharing so many pics too.



FireMonk3y said:


> In the picture you can see how the bracelet size is adjustable through the clasp. By pulling on the bracelet, it unlocks it, and allows for the bracelet to be adjusted larger or smaller. Once the desired length is found snap it back up and your in business. It's very clean looking and has a very smooth action. This may be the way current subs are, not really sure. Very efficient design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> I am from the Bay. I wonder if they would be down to open house their operation for WUS members.


The shipping address (43575 Mission Blvd, Fremont, CA 94539) seems to be the site of Aria Printing and Shipping:










But you could pop into the Subway next door for lunch ...


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

FireMonk3y said:


> In the picture you can see how the bracelet size is adjustable through the clasp. By pulling on the bracelet, it unlocks it, and allows for the bracelet to be adjusted larger or smaller. Once the desired length is found snap it back up and your in business. It's very clean looking and has a very smooth action. This may be the way current subs are, not really sure. Very efficient design.


Yup, it sure looks like Rolex GlideLock. What you described is pretty much how GlideLock works. The clasp looks just like unsigned GlideLock too. Doesn't Ginault claim to make the bracelets as well? Why would Ginault recreate the wheel when the wheel can be bought at really cheap price from China? Like I've said, Ginault guys are either the worst businessmen in the world or their claims are a load of baloney that doesn't jibe.


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## Chocodove (Sep 3, 2011)

FireMonk3y said:


> In the picture you can see how the bracelet size is adjustable through the clasp. By pulling on the bracelet, it unlocks it, and allows for the bracelet to be adjusted larger or smaller. Once the desired length is found snap it back up and your in business. It's very clean looking and has a very smooth action. This may be the way current subs are, not really sure. Very efficient design.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's an exact copy of the Rolex glidelock. Not saying that's a good or bad thing, but that's what it is.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> So is the plastic pieces suppose to be removed? if so, can it be removed cleanly?


That clasp is an exact copy of the oyster clasp I have on my exp II . Tissell has the same one so suspect same supplier

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Yup, it sure looks like Rolex GlideLock. What you described is pretty much how GlideLock works. The clasp looks just like unsigned GlideLock too. Doesn't Ginault claim to make the bracelets as well? Why would Ginault recreate the wheel when the wheel can be bought at really cheap price from China? Like I've said, Ginault guys are either the worst businessmen in the world or their claims are a load of baloney that doesn't jibe.


I am guessing the quality between theirs and the ones from China could be different.

I have tried some unsigned Glidelock clasps from Ebay as replacements for my 116610LV in the past. The quality compared to the original is terrible. I will confirm when mine arrives.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

It seems the adage about there being no bad publicity is true. :-d Do I count at least four sales from the posters this thread alone? Someone please open the watch and examine the movement. I am more interested in the internals than externals.

And all you suckers owe minimum 350-word love letter to Mr. Ginault. ;-)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> I am guessing the quality between theirs and the ones from China could be different.
> 
> I have tried some unsigned Glidelock clasps from Ebay as replacements for my 116610LV in the past. The quality compared to the original is terrible. I will confirm when mine arrives.


There is no way that Ginault makes their own bracelets. That takes another production line, machinery, etc. etc. It simply isn't cost effective.

I re-read what they wrote and they don't exactly say they make the bracelets - just that bracelet takes many hours of polishing, etc. to make. More vaguely worded non-sense to imply things that likely aren't true.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> There is no way that Ginault makes their own bracelets. That takes another production line, machinery, etc. etc. It simply isn't cost effective.
> 
> I re-read what they wrote and they don't exactly say they make the bracelets - just that bracelet takes many hours of polishing, etc. to make. More vaguely worded non-sense to imply things that likely aren't true.


I am a bit confused. So are you saying that they said they made it? Or are you saying that they said they didn't make it?

While the provenance remains a debate, when I receive the watch I will be able to confirm the quality of the GL compared to my 16610LV's as well as the ones I bought from ebay.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> well, now you're being silly. Nobody the size of Ginault is making their own parts. The ones that do their own design work still have to source them from factories, based on specs they provide. These are not fully-integrated operations, and can't be due to the cost. We can debate--and we have--how he sources the parts and where he sources them from, but it's not a knock against him that he's paying some other factory to manufacture his components.


No disagreement from me. I am not knocking Ginault for outsourcing. I am knocking Ginault for implying otherwise.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> I am a bit confused. So are you saying that they said they made it? Or are you saying that they said they didn't make it?


The confusion is all mine. I inferred that Ginault made their bracelets from what they wrote but I re-read their writing and they don't explicitly state that they make their own bracelets. As hwa and others have said, Ginault most likely get their bracelets from a Chinese supplier like other micro-brands.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

A shade over +1 at 22 hours. Not too shabby at all.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

This thread has been truly enlightening. Apparently marketing is much more effective than I ever thought it to be. Going to have to come up with some good reading / critical thinking assignments for my kids.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> This thread has been truly enlightening. Apparently marketing is much more effective than I ever thought it to be. Going to have to come up with some good reading / critical thinking assignments for my kids.


The odd extremist naysayer is inadvertently doing wonders for Ginault. The irony is palpable.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

"The odd extremist naysayer is inadvertently doing wonders for Ginault. The irony is palpable."

Everybody likes an underdog.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> The odd extremist naysayer is inadvertently doing wonders for Ginault. The irony is palpable.


Like I've said, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Maybe I'll get a free "kinetic continuous submersible maritime precision chronometer" from Ginault to change my mind about them. That actually happened to me once. Stranger things have happened. ;-) Don't you have an essay homework from Ginault to finish? :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

aegir said:


> This thread has been truly enlightening. Apparently marketing is much more effective than I ever thought it to be. Going to have to come up with some good reading / critical thinking assignments for my kids.


Well, apparently BS marketing is only highly effective on a certain Canadian. Others have smarts to see through the BS. It definitely would be a good case study for your kids. :-d


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

I don't know Ginault from Adam but the price is what bugs me more than moon dust or gold flakes or clasps from China. don't sell for $1299 when w some coupon you get 50% or if you express you opinion and write an essay you get 60% off. Seems rather childish to me.
Having said this it looks good but I will let you all figure this one out.


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

Official review added to the dive watch page. I'll link it, once I figure out how. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

FireMonk3y said:


> Official review added to the dive watch page. I'll link it, once I figure out how.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=3912258

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

Well, after thinking on it for a day, I decided to take the plunge as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

valuewatchguy said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=3912258
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


Thanks for posting the link!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Sweet. Nice to see another 'biased' review, haha. Looking forward to finally getting mine Monday. Poor watch has had a rough trip. It was marked undeliverable, forwarded to my relatives in a different state, and is finally booked in first class on FedEx on its way to me in Asia.


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

"The good, the bad, the Ginault"
Nothing gets the WIS blood flowin like a homage.
More pics!
Right on for throwing up the reviews.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

FireMonk3y said:


> Official review added to the dive watch page. I'll link it, once I figure out how.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good first review for the Ginault I think, thanks!

I think that you've been fair and it was good to have the comparison with the MKII.


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## WreckDiver1321 (Sep 2, 2016)

Interested in seeing an actual review of it, off to read that now.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

I genuinely don't understand why some here are so negative to this product/brand.... sure there's a bit of thrill work in their advertising but at the end of the day it's up to the consumer to decide whether he/she wants to buy it *if* they feel it represents value for money. One thing they don't seem to be claiming and others do is that the movement is swiss made.

IMO and I hope Ginault don't take this the wrong way but this thing goes way beyond the regular homage which gets the feel of a Sub but nothing more where as this I feel follows the Sub much closer in both style and execution..... one could call that a replica without actually going the whole hog and putting Rolex logos and badges which might be true but for those that don't want to spend Rolex prices this is probably the next best thing.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Good first review for the Ginault I think, thanks!
> 
> I think that you've been fair and it was good to have the comparison with the MKII.


I agree. It seems to hold up well against the MK II, even if perhaps not quite "there". Factor the price differential and...

I will try to get my review and additional pics up today.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I thought I would share the company's initial comments to me when I asked about the watch, option for discount with review, and specifics on the movement. It remains my hope that they will post a new thread detailing the movement for us. The wording for the lume was "flowery" for sure, but it's far less a concern now that I have seen the stellar performance. You will see that there is no coercion to embellish my review - rather to simply give the watch a fair assessment.

*<private correspondence removed in accordance with our rule 3 - The Admin>*


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

aegir said:


> Sweet. Nice to see another 'biased' review, haha.


Why do you say FireMonk3y's review is biased? :-s Has anyone accused him of such? He has not displayed any rabid and vociferous predilection for Ginault like some Canuck.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

My review of the watch with lots of pics is now up.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-ocean-rover-review-pictorial-3913578.html


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

RNHC said:


> Why do you say FireMonk3y's review is biased? :-s Has anyone accused him of such? He has not displayed any rabid and vociferous predilection for Ginault like some Canuck.


Give it a rest already.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

It may be time for folks to refamiliarize themselves with our rules and guidelines and exercise some common sense. I've had to edit one post and remove 8 others due to members posting and quoting private correspondence, discussing replica watches and linking to a replica watch forum, and for making irresponsible libelous comments about a Sponsor. If folks can't get their stuff together I'll have no choice but to take appropriate action.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

CMSgt Bo said:


> It may be time for folks to refamiliarize themselves with our rules and guidelines and exercise some common sense. I've had to edit one post and remove 8 others due to members posting and quoting private correspondence, discussing replica watches and linking to a replica watch forum, and for making irresponsible libelous comments about a Sponsor. If folks can't get their stuff together I'll have no choice but to take appropriate action.


So can there be any discussion at all about even the possibility that this is just a fake with a different name on the dial? I can't see how that would violate any rules.......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

There are several differences beyond the name.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Am I allowed to recommend a google search term?

"the right equipment and skill set to make a part that is this delicate"
(do not remove the quote marks)

Also, Ginault is not a new company:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-do-they-sell-watches-496026.html


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Avo said:


> Am I allowed to recommend a google search term?
> 
> "the right equipment and skill set to make a part that is this delicate"


"Textbook of Assisted Reproductive Techniques, Fourth Ed."??

Methinks not!


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Avo said:


> Am I allowed to recommend a google search term?
> 
> "the right equipment and skill set to make a part that is this delicate"
> (do not remove the quote marks)
> ...


I embedded a link... with the quotation marks you get three results, all related to gun barrel makers making bezels for watches.









Edit: Just FYI, I have no problem with other people buying Parnis, Alpha, or higher priced and higher quality watches in the same vein. That being said, I would not personally be comfortable doing so and I think that its only fair to give everyone all the facts to make their decision.


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## smille76 (May 3, 2013)

Sent from my Motorola StarTAC 70


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Just for fun to lighten the mood here.
but wouldn't it be easier for Ginault to just reply on this thread in regards to some things that have been addressed by a few, that way they can simply quote and answer some peoples queries that some have had here.


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

In case anyone is missing the point, the google search pointed out by mike120 links to a replica forum where a counterfeiter discusses his latest creation, using the exact same sentences as the original post of this thread.

That definitely warrants an explanation.


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

Tovarisch said:


> In case anyone is missing the point, the google search pointed out by mike120 links to a replica forum where a counterfeiter discusses his latest creation, using the exact same sentences as the original post of this thread.
> 
> That definitely warrants an explanation.


I posted them both here but I guess that's not allowed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

smille76 said:


> Sent from my Motorola StarTAC 70


You nailed it, Seb. Did I mention the watch is a stunner?? We need to get the focus back on what we know with certainty.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Why do you say FireMonk3y's review is biased? :-s Has anyone accused him of such? He has not displayed any rabid and vociferous predilection for Ginault like some Canuck.


Sorry. My sarcasm and meaning did not come across at all. I was hoping the "haha" would give an indication that it was in jest. Sometimes writing posts while sleep deprived is probably not the best idea.

To clarify, I do not think that FireMonk3y's review is biased at all. I very much enjoyed reading it.


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

aegir said:


> Sorry. My sarcasm and meaning did not come across at all. I was hoping the "haha" would give an indication that it was in jest. Sometimes writing posts while sleep deprived is probably not the best idea.
> 
> To clarify, I do not think that FireMonk3y's review is biased at all. I very much enjoyed reading it.


Definitely no offense taken here, I knew what you were meaning. I've tried to be a smarta** here a couple times and seems like no one ever gets it. I've learned that everyone here is very serious, although I appreciate everyone that has defended my review.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Um. Sorry. I really don't wish to waste time on this......

But if a replica came out so long ago (guy is on version 7) why wait so long to put a different dial on it? (Also, once you did, it wouldn't be a replica would it?)

And, forgive me for saying so but the links I chased down to forum posts were an order of magnitude more eloquent than the Ginault website. Definitely different people. Seems more likely to me that the old post wording was copied when describing the broaching process. At worst this seems evidence of association, I wouldn't say it's evidence for identity. 

And reading further it seems patently clear to me that they are definitely two different entities. Crystal is also much nicer on Ginault just from looking at a few pics.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

MercerWatch said:


> I posted them both here but I guess that's not allowed.


There no need to guess...from our rules here: 9 . No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a moderator or the site owner. In general, any posts that involves the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is prohibited.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

It's a homage. And that debate will never be settled in any of our lifetimes so why even go there? It will just get the thread locked down.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Tovarisch said:


> In case anyone is missing the point, the google search pointed out by mike120 links to a replica forum where a counterfeiter discusses his latest creation, using the exact same sentences as the original post of this thread.
> 
> That definitely warrants an explanation.


Certainly raises a lot of eyebrows

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Hmmmm...... Interestingly enough, one brand uses an ETA2824 clone of dubious origin, and the other has a video showing his own movement of dubious origin off. I don't think that they're the same person by any stretch of the imagination, but it certainly would be nice to hear from Mr. Ginault's mouth whether there is a connection between Ginault and the rep maker who uses the same ad language verbatim and HIGHLY similar language with regards to the dial which comes from high quality high gloss enamel dial maker in the same country, and provides a movement which may or may not be the same as the one made by/sourced by the rep maker. Oh. Plus also, the rep maker is in California, and Ginault's address is a UPS store on the CA/NV border.


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## MercerWatch (Jul 30, 2014)

CMSgt Bo said:


> There no need to guess...from our rules here: 9 . No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a moderator or the site owner. In general, any posts that involves the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is prohibited.


Understood, I will be requesting permission from the site owner.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

MercerWatch said:


> Understood, I will be requesting permission from the site owner.


I represent the site owner and links to a replica forum would be inappropriate for a Sponsor introduction thread.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

This is not the first time it has been suggested that a micro brand is using parts designed for replicas or is also making replicas (and maybe using the earnings to help launch a micro brand).

The discussion usually ends with debate about homage/replica terminology and quibbling about whether every micro that uses a Chinese factory that might also manufacture cases/parts used for replicas is supporting the counterfeitting industry.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I represent the site owner and links to a replica forum would be inappropriate for a Sponsor introduction thread.


Would another thread discussing the, shall we say, uncertain origins of this piece which included those links and discussion about them be permissible? If the answer is no it would seem as though becoming a WuS Sponsor is the best business decision that Ginault has made to date!


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## Grahamelawton (Aug 16, 2014)

A general response: Buy one if you like it. If not, don't. I like the challenges people put forward but this one is off the rails! 

Radar1: thanks for posts and the review. Hopefully it gives people enough info to make an informed decision...at least you have one to enjoy and it sounds like you are.

If someone has a different experience, that too would be good to hear.

Cheers and happy weekend all.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## calwatchguy (Jun 23, 2015)

mf1tym said:


> I am from the Bay. I wonder if they would be down to open house their operation for WUS members.


I am in the Bay as well and would take a drive down there. I like supporting local businesses if possible, and if it's possible to see the watches in person, even better. I'd be happy to write a very thorough review .


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

calwatchguy said:


> I am in the Bay as well and would take a drive down there. I like supporting local businesses if possible, and if it's possible to see the watches in person, even better. I'd be happy to write a very thorough review .


I'd love for you to ask for the factory tour but i doubt you'll get a response.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> Would another thread discussing the, shall we say, uncertain origins of this piece which included those links and discussion about them be permissible? If the answer is no it would seem as though becoming a WuS Sponsor is the best business decision that Ginault has made to date!


Very curious to see what WUS's position is on this.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

I really don't think upholding the forum rules can be construed as "supporting" a sponsor.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

(Ghost post)


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> You've already seen it: WUS will support its paid sponsor and not permit discussion of reps.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So I guess it can be inferred by this thread being allowed in the first place that the piece is not a rep. Yet, some on here continue to browbeat others that it is. To me that's the bottom line on this one. Best advice I have seen is "buy it if you like it, don't buy it if you don't". I have formulated some theories on the matter, and still like the watch a lot and have zero regrets about buying it. It has turned into a bit of a witch hunt and some people's motivations for that are not exactly pure either.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Possibly all of this could have been prevented in all fairness IF they (Ginault) had answered the questions that some people here set forth for them, nothing wrong with a question, especially if you are trying to tout and sell something, personally if I ask a question that is in my mind a legitimate one here on the forum on any given thread, is it really much to ask for a reply, by either the thread starter or someone that might be able to answer, by that meaning they answer the question not just for the one that asks initially, but, to many others if they had the same thought but couldn't be bothered to ask.

Replica watch is a replica if it has a name that is out to dupe some poor unsuspecting soul, but is it a replica if the cases and bracelets? are unmarked with a name brand that would mislead someone into believing that that the watch they have is a real one, I think there are many that use replica parts to create their own watch, just by using a replica case meant to be say a Rolex fake, but changing the dial and obviously any rep markings, and adding your own, is it a replica or merely the use of available cheaper parts?*



Radar1 said:


> So I guess it can be inferred by this thread being allowed in the first place that the piece is not a rep. Yet, some on here continue to browbeat others that it is. To me that's the bottom line on this one. Best advice I have seen is "buy it if you like it, don't buy it if you don't". I have formulated some theories on the matter, and still like the watch a lot and have zero regrets about buying it. It has turned into a bit of a witch hunt and some people's motivations for that are not exactly pure either.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

I will say they were genius in asking for reviews in exchange for the discount. I think they were willing to do 10 discounted sales? 10 separate threads about this watch! My Tapatalk feed is cluttered with Ginault talk from just 3 reviews and 1 OP from the maker.

Best wishes to everyone who bought one. Give it a rest to everyone who hates it. Good luck to everyone who is thinking of buying. 

The one concensus between the reviews seems to be that $1299 is a lofty price for this watch. Begs the question what happens after their 10 discounted offers are all taken up?

A serial flipper like me could never make this purchase work, due to the beating it will take on resale (even at the discounted price)....in my opinion.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

^A very good point being made here, this isn't trying to be something it ain't. It's mimicking certain features of the Submariner but in other aspects like the colour of the lumes and the secondhand colour it's clearly separating itself from that shady industry.

One thing I will say is that Ginault are doing themselves no favours staying silent because rightly or wrongly it's giving the impression of something they have to hide.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I don't think anybody is stating that this Watch is a rep. 
It obviously is not. 

It would be unfortunate if there is a connection between Ginault and rep makers though, because reps are illegal. 

Go look at that thread linked a few posts above


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SHANE 1000 said:


> *Possibly all of this could have been prevented in all fairness IF they (Ginault) had answered the questions that some people here set forth for them, nothing wrong with a question, especially if you are trying to tout and sell something, personally if I ask a question that is in my mind a legitimate one here on the forum on any given thread, is it really much to ask for a reply, by either the thread starter or someone that might be able to answer, by that meaning they answer the question not just for the one that asks initially, but, to many others if they had the same thought but couldn't be bothered to ask.
> 
> Replica watch is a replica if it has a name that is out to dupe some poor unsuspecting soul, but is it a replica if the cases and bracelets? are unmarked with a name brand that would mislead someone into believing that that the watch they have is a real one, I think there are many that use replica parts to create their own watch, just by using a replica case meant to be say a Rolex fake, but changing the dial and obviously any rep markings, and adding your own, is it a replica or merely the use of available cheaper parts?*


Shane-

I have maintained from the get go that Ginault's best response to is to provide some answers to some of these questions. When the dust settles it is their decision whether or not to do that. There is a point of diminishing return here whereby belabouring the point doesn't provide any benefit for anyone. That's why the advice to simply assess, and buy/not buy is the best I have seen. We all have our own personal views on what constitutes good value and quality, and what we like in watch styling. There are some fiercely loyal big brand owners on this thread who will always bristle at the mere mention of "homage", and a smattering of micro brand competitors as well. Maybe many of Ginault's claims are actually true - many parts sourced/manufactured in the USA, watch assembled there, etc - but they walk a fine line between transparency and divulging things that they may feel gives them a competitive edge. I can't say, but let's be honest, the homage debate - regardless of marketing spiel or semantics in play - is always an ugly one and always stirs controversy. IMO, that is the primary underlying issue here, whether people choose to admit it or not.

There is no way this can be called a rep. The line between rep and homage can certainly be blurred at times but no-one should be suggesting this is a copy. There is every bit (perhaps more) chance of a layperson thinking on first glance that a Steinhart, Squale, Davosa, Armida, etc, etc, *ad nauseum* is a Submariner. This doesn't proclaim to be one through badging, and there are several differences in design between the OR and the 16610. To me, those distinctions are readily apparent and they are important to acknowledge.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Seppia said:


> I don't think anybody is stating that this Watch is a rep.
> It obviously is not.
> 
> It would be unfortunate if there is a connection between Ginault and rep makers though, because reps are illegal.
> ...


Have to disagree on your first point. Maybe some posts have been removed, but some have definitely called it a copy or at least insinuated that it is. It is clearly not.

On your second point, if a company merely procures a 2824 clone movement from a source who has/does build reps it alters the dynamic a little. I have no idea if that is the case or not.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> Have to disagree on your first point. Maybe some posts have been removed, but some have definitely called it a copy or at least insinuated that it is. It is clearly not.


Haven't seen those posts, maybe they were removed as you say.



Radar1 said:


> On your second point, if a company merely procures a 2824 clone movement from a source who has/does build reps it alters the dynamic a little. I have no idea if that is the case or not.


And the clasp, and the bracelet, and the case. 
This would alter the dynamic a lot


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

I agree and not for one moment did I suggest it was a replica not in the slightest that's not even in the equation of my query here, I merely asked if a watch company using a intended deceptive replica case, and again I'm not remotely saying this is the deal here with Ginault, but is the use of a replica case but logoed differently bad? or affordable for whomever? what I mean is the cost would be incredibly high to make from scratch NEW case sets and bracelets and so on for every watch that we see, it's costly enough just to engrave a name on things as it is, for example Kobold SEAL and WCT both legitimate watches but is the WCT a replica of the SEAL? I would say yes IF the WCT was logoed with Kobold and the case back had a seal on it, then it would be a total copy/replica/fake? whatever word you would use, but with a simple dial change it becomes a different animal, and an acceptable one too, can't list ALL watches that use replica cases or the same cases from the same makers, the list would be enormous I think .

The part where Ginault started this thread with the expectations of selling their NEW product, again all great, but I think what got peoples goat is the fact that they didn't respond to questions fired at them, That I believe got people in a frustrated mode, and with their frustrations became a wee bit annoyed as you can see from start to this point in replies accusations and so on.

Like I said I like the look of the watch, I'm not bothered personally what where or when they got the parts or where they went to get them, I have no vested interest whatsoever in it, however I do think it is sort of odd, that they didn't as of yet come to their defense, I truly believe if they had from the start, then this thread would have been more objective and positive.



Radar1 said:


> Shane-
> 
> I have maintained from the get go that Ginault's best response to is to provide some answers to some of these questions. When the dust settles it is their decision whether or not to do that. There is a point of diminishing return here whereby belabouring the point doesn't provide any benefit for anyone. That's why the advice to simply assess, and buy/not buy is the best I have seen. We all have our own personal views on what constitutes good value and quality, and what we like in watch styling. There are some fiercely loyal big brand owners on this thread who will always bristle at the mere mention of "homage", and a smattering of micro brand competitors as well. Maybe many of Ginault's claims are actually true - many parts sourced/manufactured in the USA, watch assembled there, etc - but they walk a fine line between transparency and divulging things that they may feel gives them a competitive edge. I can't say, but let's be honest, the homage debate - regardless of marketing spiel or semantics in play - is always an ugly one and always stirs controversy. IMO, that is the primary underlying issue here, whether people choose to admit it or not.
> 
> There is no way this can be called a rep. The line between rep and homage can certainly be blurred at times but no-one should be suggesting this is a copy. There is every bit (perhaps more) chance of a layperson thinking on first glance that a Steinhart, Squale, Davosa, Armida, etc, etc, *ad nauseum* is a Submariner. This doesn't proclaim to be one through badging, and there are several differences in design between the OR and the 16610. To me, those distinctions are readily apparent and they are important to acknowledge.


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> There is a point of diminishing return here whereby belabouring the point doesn't provide any benefit for anyone.


And conversely, I think you should stop defending Ginault over and over and over again, because it is not helping your cause.

You like the watch. We got it. You're entitled to. But I don't think there's anything more you can bring to the discussion right now. You have made your points!


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

seems to me that it hinders proper discussion especially when the company being discussed has received approval to be a paid sponsor. So how does it work, one pays then you get to display your goods without having to explain anything about your company? it would be nice to get that confirmed that in order to be a paid sponsor you must prove not to us but to WUS that the company is indeed reasonably legit. I have no idea if there are such requirements and no idea if the UPS store is a legit office for the Ginault watch office but it seems dubious to me.

Assuming there aren't any requirements to show to WUS management that the company is reputable when said company stays mute about reasonably good questions from WUS members it seems difficult to stay away from the rep discussion and then it becomes questionable on WUS' side. my 3 cents worth but transparency goes a long way. 
Having said this buy the watch if you like it but I don't like things that don't smell right.



hwa said:


> You've already seen it: WUS will support its paid sponsor and not permit discussion of reps.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

Avo said:


> Am I allowed to recommend a google search term?
> 
> "the right equipment and skill set to make a part that is this delicate"
> (do not remove the quote marks)
> ...


That watchmaker looks to be very skilled, even if that skill may have been directed in wrong ways.

That skill directed towards a legitimate brand draws my interest honestly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Allow me to point out that there is no such thing as an unmarked replica case. It's the deceptive branding that makes the case a replica/knockoff/counterfeit. An unmarked case/dial/bracelet/whatever is an homage to the original. No matter how many times it's stated otherwise does not make it true.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SHANE 1000 said:


> I agree and not for one moment did I suggest it was a replica not in the slightest that's not even in the equation of my query here, I merely asked if a watch company using a intended deceptive replica case, and again I'm not remotely saying this is the deal here with Ginault, but is the use of a replica case but logoed differently bad? or affordable for whomever? what I mean is the cost would be incredibly high to make from scratch NEW case sets and bracelets and so on for every watch that we see, it's costly enough just to engrave a name on things as it is, for example Kobold SEAL and WCT both legitimate watches but is the WCT a replica of the SEAL? I would say yes IF the WCT was logoed with Kobold and the case back had a seal on it, then it would be a total copy/replica/fake? whatever word you would use, but with a simple dial change it becomes a different animal, and an acceptable one too, can't list ALL watches that use replica cases or the same cases from the same makers, the list would be enormous I think .
> 
> The part where Ginault started this thread with the expectations of selling their NEW product, again all great, but I think what got peoples goat is the fact that they didn't respond to questions fired at them, That I believe got people in a frustrated mode, and with their frustrations became a wee bit annoyed as you can see from start to this point in replies accusations and so on.
> 
> Like I said I like the look of the watch, I'm not bothered personally what where or when they got the parts or where they went to get them, I have no vested interest whatsoever in it, however I do think it is sort of odd, that they didn't as of yet come to their defense, I truly believe if they had from the start, then this thread would have been more objective and positive.


We are not far apart in opinion at all. If at all. |>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Allow me to point out that there is no such thing as an unmarked replica case. It's the deceptive branding that makes the case a replica/knockoff/counterfeit. An unmarked case/dial/bracelet/whatever is an homage to the original. No matter how many times it's stated otherwise does not make it true.


Absolutely. I would add that there is no absolute transparency - even from the big players - about precisely where all their watch parts are sourced. Legalities are crafted and worded very carefully in that regard. Someone buys "Swiss Made" and what are they really getting? 60% by the letter of the law?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Tovarisch said:


> And conversely, I think you should stop defending Ginault over and over and over again, because it is not helping your cause.
> 
> You like the watch. We got it. You're entitled to. But I don't think there's anything more you can bring to the discussion right now. You have made your points!


My "cause"? What is my "cause"? My point from the start is that they should disclose what they feel they can and none of us can force them to do so. What exactly are you bringing to the discussion beyond yet another personal and unfounded attack?


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## Impoverished (Mar 17, 2015)

Like (luminous) sand through the hourglass...







I've not been a member here for an exceptionally long time but have always enjoyed the civility displayed here relative to other corners of the Internet. This thread has certainly challenged my perception that most of us can keep it holstered.

We all want to see them come and address this stuff. After the initial impression of WTF as to their manufacturing claims and product material descriptions it's not unreasonable to think that on Ginault's end that they made a miscalculation and really stepped in it. On the other hand they have a thread that's collecting 10 pages of posts a day debating their bona fides and two really nice reviews of their watch. They're stuck in between a hornets nest of forum members demanding 1000% transparency and having their company and product on a lot of people's minds in the sense of "any press is good press".

It's not surprising to me they're absent. I feel like I'm lacing up the gloves even to come here and say this. Mr. Ginault representative would need the flack jacket, jock strap, crash helmet and every round he can muster at this point.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Allow me to point out that there is no such thing as an unmarked replica case. It's the deceptive branding that makes the case a replica/knockoff/counterfeit. An unmarked case/dial/bracelet/whatever is an homage to the original. No matter how many times it's stated otherwise does not make it true.


The point here is that the description of the Watch discussed in this thread is dangerously similar (euphemism) in wording to a discussion on a rep forum, about a counterfeit watch.

Also, some elements of this Guinault watch (clasp, bracelet, case) seem incredibly similar to what could be used to produce a counterfeit watch.

I think it is in Guinault best interest to clarify this. 
Their absence from this topic is not helping.

There's quite a large range of possibilities here:

Maybe there's nothing and this is just a big misunderstanding?
Or maybe Guinault is unknowingly sourcing parts from a factory that possibly churns out counterfeit watches?
Or maybe they do so knowingly?
Or maybe the counterfeiters are the same guys behind Guinault?

Let me add: I think clarifying this is also a matter of extreme importance for WUS as a site. 
Imagine what would happen if we were to find out by disgrace that we are in the last two options.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Impoverished said:


> Like (luminous) sand through the hourglass...
> View attachment 10437466
> 
> I've not been a member here for an exceptionally long time but have always enjoyed the civility displayed here relative to other corners of the Internet. This thread has certainly challenged my perception that most of us can keep it holstered.
> ...


Couldn't agree more. Definitely used some ill-advised wording. Definitely put together a beautiful watch (that could stand with some improvements as well). Definitely getting a ton of exposure (good and bad).


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Seppia said:


> The point here is that the description of the Watch discussed in this thread is dangerously similar (euphemism) in wording to a discussion on a rep forum, about a counterfeit watch.
> 
> Also, some elements of this Guinault watch (clasp, bracelet, case) seem incredibly similar to what could be used to produce a counterfeit watch.
> 
> ...


None of this makes it a rep watch. So now we're down to linkages - perceived to be tenuous, or concrete - with that other entity. That is unlikely to be sorted out with certainty on this or any other thread, so folks will have to make their decisions based on the merits of the watch itself, and how much of the other baggage they are willing to saddle. I can certainly understand that even the perception of ethical issues would turn someone off the watch, no matter how well put together it apparently is and the fact that it is not a copy.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> None of this makes it a rep watch. So now we're down to linkages - perceived to be tenuous, or concrete - with that other entity. That is unlikely to be sorted out with certainty on this or any other thread.


Did I say it is?
No I did not. The opposite, actually.

Of course we are down to linkages with the other entity, because is not a minimal thing: we are talking about something illegal.

It's not a minor detail at all, and it can indeed be sorted out, if wus people want it they can demand some clarification.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Seppia said:


> Did I say it is?
> No I did not. The opposite, actually.
> 
> Of course we are down to linkages with the other entity, because is not a minimal thing: we are talking about something illegal.
> ...


Clarify what is illegal. The use by Ginault of some (not all) parts that may (or may not) be used in a copy, in the creation of a homage? There is a pretty wide divide between that and selling an outright fake. Is it an association (in any form or to any degree) with the other entity that is illegal?


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## Chocodove (Sep 3, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> Clarify what is illegal. The use by Ginault of some (not all) parts that may (or may not) be used in a copy, in the creation of a homage? There is a pretty wide divide between that and selling an outright fake. Is it an association (in any form or to any degree) with the other entity that is illegal?


I think the question everyone would like answered is why the description of some aspects of the OR nearly mirrors that of a description of a counterfeit product on a site that promotes such products, nearly two years prior to the release of this watch. Ginault started this thread and they can answer the question quite easily if they care to. Being that the OP in this thread was incredibly detailed as to their components and methods, I would think the opportunity to clarify things would be very welcome.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Chocodove said:


> I think the question everyone would like answered is why the description of some aspects of the OR nearly mirrors that of a description of a counterfeit product on a site that promotes such products, nearly two years prior to the release of this watch. Ginault started this thread and they can answer the question quite easily if they care to. Being that the OP in this thread was incredibly detailed as to their components and methods, I would think the opportunity to clarify things would be very welcome.


Your points are certainly valid.


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## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

Chocodove said:


> I think the question everyone would like answered is why the description of some aspects of the OR nearly mirrors that of a description of a counterfeit product on a site that promotes such products, nearly two years prior to the release of this watch. Ginault started this thread and they can answer the question quite easily if they care to. Being that the OP in this thread was incredibly detailed as to their components and methods, I would think the opportunity to clarify things would be very welcome.


I think that you put this well. I imagine that many members here would be unlikely to purchase a watch if the manufacturer was also selling illegal replicas. I'm not saying that this is the case, but some reasonable questions have been asked.

I don't think that asking the manufacturer for clarification on this is against the rules here, which we all should respect.

Hopefully, the manufacturer, who is undoubtedly aware of this thread will respond soon.

I can't imagine any of the other microbrand owners who sell here not responding to their own thread, so this does seem a bit odd.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

People see what they want to see.



Seppia said:


> The point here is that the description of the Watch discussed in this thread is dangerously similar (euphemism) in wording to a discussion on a rep forum, about a counterfeit watch.


It's a giant leap from plagiarizing to manufacturing counterfeit luxury goods.



Seppia said:


> Also, some elements of this Guinault watch (clasp, bracelet, case) seem incredibly similar to what could be used to produce a counterfeit watch.


They are also key elements of a faithful homage.



Seppia said:


> I think it is in Guinault best interest to clarify this.
> Their absence from this topic is not helping.


How is that going to help? People are going to believe what they want to believe regardless. This is all useless mental masturbation and the very definition of a no-win situation.



Seppia said:


> There's quite a large range of possibilities here:


And you expect to arrive at an answer that will put all the wild speculation to rest?



Seppia said:


> Maybe there's nothing and this is just a big misunderstanding?


People will say "of course this is what you'd expect them to say and I don't believe it".



Seppia said:


> Or maybe Guinault is unknowingly sourcing parts from a factory that possibly churns out counterfeit watches?


How would they know if they don't know? This is an easy default argument for the skeptics.



Seppia said:


> Or maybe they do so knowingly?


And you would expect someone in this position to admit it? Another easy default argument for the skeptics



Seppia said:


> Or maybe the counterfeiters are the same guys behind Guinault?


Again, you would expect someone in this position to admit it? And yet another easy default argument for the skeptics



Seppia said:


> Let me add: I think clarifying this is also a matter of extreme importance for WUS as a site.
> Imagine what would happen if we were to find out by disgrace that we are in the last two options.


I did the initial vetting for this Sponsor and found nothing that would keep them from becoming a Sponsor, and don't believe any definitives were uncovered in this thread.

Allow me to remind everyone it's not only inappropriate and irresponsible to disparage a manufacture (Sponsor or not) with wild accusations, but it can also be legally actionable if it is done with the intent to damage the reputation of that manufacture. I have removed content and banned members for doing this very thing to non Sponsors, so expect the same potential recourse here. Regardless of what many think, in most cases you're not anonymous and you are always responsible for your words and actions.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Allow me to point out that there is no such thing as an unmarked replica case. It's the deceptive branding that makes the case a replica/knockoff/counterfeit. An unmarked case/dial/bracelet/whatever is an homage to the original. No matter how many times it's stated otherwise does not make it true.


:think:I agree to a point with your comment, however if the watch starts life as a genuine watch that is originally bought from an AD for example a Rolex sub, then sent to some secret location to be dissected scanned and 1:1 copied, with the intention of making an exact copy (Replica? fake? counterfeit?) to be sold as either a fake or in some sad cases Genuine, then that same case with no branding is using that *replica case *of the original watch, because initially it was made for the deception of others a replication of the original, for example PARNIS is obviously using Rolex replica case pictured below, either branded Parnis or sterile, meaning that they are reaching a further field with the exact same cases as one would see in the original replica (Oxymoron right there) ORIGINAL REPLICA, could it be loopholes for avoiding prosecution ? or something else?, anyway to avoid the stigma of it ever being called a fake, just add a new name and engrave something else.

Parnis ARE legitimate, but the exact same watch with the ROLEX branding IS NOW A FAKE, however without any branding at all it's now a homage or with another name on the dial it's whatever it is, point is all housed within the exact same initial original replica case. would be different if each company that used these cases just modified them a tad, just a tweak to make them a wee bit more unique and less of a clone, so if they are all made in one factory then I fail to see the use of one being any different.







I saw one on here the other day and there was a comment about having a HEV on a 30 m watch, I got a giggle out of that.

AGAIN just to clarify this is not a dig at the OP or a pissing match about replica watches, just an observation and thought in regards to the comment about Rep cases.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

Seppia said:


> The point here is that the description of the Watch discussed in this thread is dangerously similar (euphemism) in wording to a discussion on a rep forum, about a counterfeit watch.
> 
> Also, some elements of this Guinault watch (clasp, bracelet, case) seem incredibly similar to what could be used to produce a counterfeit watch.


In my opinion the objective of a homage is to mimic the original without deceiving the public into believing it's something it's not, so using a clasp, bracelet and case that mimics these elements closely isn't out of the question in case it's almost expected otherwise it's not really a homage.



Seppia said:


> I think it is in Guinault best interest to clarify this.
> Their absence from this topic is not helping.
> 
> There's quite a large range of possibilities here:
> ...


Couldn't agree more.

[email protected] 1000, without checking for sure it's my opinion that it's only when you try to deceive by add the branding of the original that it become illegal, up to that point you are only producing a homage.... of course if the brand has elements of its design copyrighted then that another matter.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

I was told by a Professor once "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras".

Methinks you're reaching a little...I'll take that back, a lot.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Luminated said:


> [email protected] 1000, without checking for sure it's my opinion that it's only when you try to deceive by add the branding of the original that it become illegal, up to that point you are only producing a homage.... of course if the brand has elements of its design copyrighted then that another matter.


In all fairness sir I never mentioned it being illegal, that was another post I think from another member. Rest of your comment I agree with, I think there is and always will be a very fine line.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

1) The Ginault is not a repiica. To be a replica, it would have to replicate the dial text (as well as everything else) of the original watch, which it clearly does not. Many other details (eg lume) are also different. The Ginault is an homage, as are the Steinhart, Kiger, etc etc.

2) Some of the Ginault marketing materials appear to have been copied from the marketing materials of a maker of illegal replica watches. The raises the question of just how close the ties are between Ginault and the maker of these illegal watches.

3) No matter how close these ties are or are not, the making, marketing, and selling of the Ginault would seem to be legal. So then it becomes a moral issue whether or not each of us cares about these possible ties.

4) Ginault's choice to use wildly excessive marketing hype, coupled with a lack of transparency about the provenance of their movement, is a separate issue.

5) Ginault's claim of "Made in USA" (engraved on the caseback) is a legal issue. The FTC is very tough on the use of this phrase; e.g. Weiss appears to have stopped using it for the latest version of their Caliber 1003 movement.

All that said, I would probably buy a Gianult (at the discounted price) if it had a better quality bezel insert.


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## Ivo P (Apr 26, 2012)

CMSgt Bo said:


> People see what they want to see.
> People will say "of course this is what you'd expect them to say and I don't


With all due respect your post was totally empty of meaning. Attempting to convince people not to look for answers, cause anyway they will not believe... strange.

I do remember at least two members happy to offer to get on a short road-trip to Ginault HQ. That would be more than 1000 words.

Let me now speculate, if all was clear, what better than free adv from two separate members showing pictures of the fantastic place where a US constructed watch is born. Why afraid? It is way cheaper to spend 1 hour with two tourists than giving 6k in discounts for 10 watches.

Sorry to say but there is something...


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## Chocodove (Sep 3, 2011)

Also with all due respect, I do not see any wild accusations here. Simply valid questions that can very easily be answered by the manufacturer. For a company with a marketing strategy such as Ginault, it's is natural for buyers to want to feel as though what they are being told is truthful. Nothing that has been presented to the WUS community supports any claims made in the OP as to the actual production of the watch. If there has been, please link to it and I will retract this post. The reviews indicate it is a nice watch, but that is not what is at issue here. 

At best, marketing materials have been plagiarized. That's fine, but when a brand introduces themselves with such hyperbolic marketing, they should be ready to stand up for what they claim. None of that is happening here.


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

Could we just agree that Ginault has, erm, extensive prior experience, and that their latest watch (introduced in this thread) is indeed pretty good because of it?

I wear a Tisell Marine Diver and I'm not one to point fingers at homage watches. The marketing literature being used to promote a counterfeit is just really unfortunate. But even if both guys are one and the same, then I guess it's a good thing he moved on to a more legitimate business venture. Perhaps it should be encouraged, even?


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Chocodove said:


> Also with all due respect, I do not see any wild accusations here.


You wouldn't, I've removed over two dozen potentially libelous posts made by a competitor and others.


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

I first saw this new homage posted on Instagram (just today). There was enough Tempting Candy on display to make me Google Ginault Watch. As I looked at some close up shots of dial and read some of the marketing info about dial and movement it confirmed to me that it was probably [Edit: just awesome looking]

As a sponsor and with WUS rules I don't think it's likely that whoever is behind Ginault will have much to say on [Edit: any claims or accusations]. Why not let the product speak for itself. And if you like the design, trust the reviews that will come. [Edit: deleted.concern over reliability as movement has 3 year warranty which reassures me].

This could be a real gem of a sub homage.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Buy the watch for what it is if you appreciate the submariner look, it's up there with the best quality Sub homage available, and possibly the best.

Over 400 posts of bickering about the advertising...... I feel sorry for the moderators having to contain and control the muddy flood!

There is an old saying, "Buy the product, not the seller's story that comes with it".


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

I think a few people will say buy the seller actually. But if you can't... buy based upon impartial review feedback 😀


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ivo P said:


> With all due respect your post was totally empty of meaning. Attempting to convince people not to look for answers, cause anyway they will not believe... strange.
> 
> I do remember at least two members happy to offer to get on a short road-trip to Ginault HQ. That would be more than 1000 words.
> 
> ...


"Free adv"? Are you suggesting that the two members who posted reviews have some stake in this? I don't think that's a place you should go. I have posted many reviews on this forum and never once considered it "advertising" for any of the several watch companies involved. You might want to choose your words more carefully.


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## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> "Free adv"? Are you suggesting that the two members who posted reviews have some stake in this? I don't think that's a place you should go. I have posted many reviews on this forum and never once considered it "advertising" for any of the several watch companies involved. You might want to choose your words more carefully.


I believe that you mis read his post. He's not referring to the reviews.


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## Chocodove (Sep 3, 2011)

kelt said:


> Buy the watch for what it is if you appreciate the submariner look, it's up there with the best quality Sub homage available, and possibly the best.
> 
> Over 400 posts of bickering about the advertising...... I feel sorry for the moderators having to contain and control the muddy flood!
> 
> There is an old saying, "Buy the product, not the seller's story that comes with it".


If someone likes the watch, then by all means they should buy it. That's a personal choice that everyone has the opportunity to make. Speaking for myself, I support truth in advertising, transparency, and I don't particularly care for my intelligence as a consumer being insulted by a company with vague marketing claims. If Ginault would simply comment on this thread, *which they were viewing not more than ten minutes ago*, and say something along the lines of "the skeptics are ludicrous, here is what we actually do, this TC replica business is completely false, everything is *made in the USA *as noted on our caseback, etc.", then this discussion would absolutely be put to bed.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Cigarbob said:


> I believe that you mis read his post. He's not referring to the reviews.


"_what better than free adv from two separate members"_

Poor wording that is easily miscontrued. Better not to take that risk, IMO. Clearly he is referring to the two posted reviews.


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## Ivo P (Apr 26, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> "Free adv"? Are you suggesting that the two members who posted reviews have some stake in this? I don't think that's a place you should go. I have posted many reviews on this forum and never once considered it "advertising" for any of the several watch companies involved. You might want to choose your words more carefully.


Hey Radar, you need to give it a brake.

Truly respect your point of view and decision to attempt to defend Ginault but you need to understand that you are not Ginault.

Thus when I say that at least two members have proposed to go visit Ginault HQ, I mean them, that actually proposed going and even asked you if you can help arrange it( it sounded odd  but they asked you). So please do not look for fight where there is none.

As for the free adv, what do you think it would be if two persons write a short summary with number of pictures of the place where probably the only American watch is build??? It will be advertisement from the very best and nothing wrong with it.

The question is why they do not take that offer but prefer to give discounts.

Again, nothing against you nor at all implying anything for your review.

By the way I would love to hear how you compare the Ginault with the Mido Ocean Star?
But I can ask in the other thread. As truly interested.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Chocodove said:


> If someone likes the watch, then by all means they should buy it. That's a personal choice that everyone has the opportunity to make. Speaking for myself, I support truth in advertising, transparency, and I don't particularly care for my intelligence as a consumer being insulted by a company with vague marketing claims. If Ginault would simply comment on this thread, *which they were viewing not more than ten minutes ago*, and say something along the lines of "the skeptics are ludicrous, here is what we actually do, this TC replica business is completely false, everything is *made in the USA *as noted on our caseback, etc.", then this discussion would absolutely be put to bed.


So, is the almighty "Swiss Made" label fully transparent? Not a chance. It also plays loose and fast with semantics.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ivo P said:


> Hey Radar, you need to give it a brake.
> 
> Truly respect your point of view and decision to attempt to defend Ginault but you need to understand that you are not Ginault.
> 
> ...


Give what a break, Ivo? You cannot use the term "advertising" in this context. By doing so you imply that both I, and firemonkey, are trying to sell watches. Maybe it is not what you meant, but it is a very poor choice of words. Revise the wording a little and I think I get what you mean. I am not defending Ginault - I am defending myself and the other individual who wrote reviews. I am of the opinion that both reviews were impartial and objectively written. Not "advertising" in any way. I don't think it came across the way you intended and I appreciate the clarification.

I suspect what you really mean is that the company provided some discounts in exchange for raising the visibility of the product and having (hopefully well-respected) individuals provide a fair assessment of the build quality. Other companies ship watches to forum members (and blog writers) for essentially the same purpose.

I am more than happy to compare the Ginault to the OSC V. I would have to pull one of the three I now have in my box :roll: and put a little thought into it. I can say that I like all of them. There is no doubt that Mido did a fantastic job on their new dive line. I cannot say with absolute certainty where all the components are from...


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## gshock626 (Apr 14, 2010)

Congrats to the owners. This is a fantastic looking homage. 

As for the skeptics, how about we wait until Ginault chimes in (as they said they would) before making any more assumptions and accusations? Based on the reviews it seems to be pretty well made and more importantly, the owners are satisfied.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Tovarisch said:


> And conversely, I think you should stop defending Ginault over and over and over again, because it is not helping your cause.
> 
> You like the watch. We got it. You're entitled to. But I don't think there's anything more you can bring to the discussion right now. You have made your points!


......and exactly what are you bring to this debate :think:


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## Chocodove (Sep 3, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> So, is the almighty "Swiss Made" label fully transparent? Not a chance. It also plays loose and fast with semantics.


"Swiss Made" is a whole other ball of wax and could easily be another 100+ page thread .

Speaking specifically regarding Ginault, my question is if the watch is "built" or "made" in the USA. There is a difference, neither of which option is necessarily better than the other, but their own markings on the watch are confusing to me. Is simply the caseback manufactured in the USA, while the watch as a whole is assembled in the USA of components from various parts of the world? Again, doesn't particularly matter either way, but my feeling is that consumers should be able to ask these questions to gain clarification if the company chooses to market directly via a watch forum.


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## Ivo P (Apr 26, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Give what a break, Ivo? You cannot use the term "advertising" in this context. By doing so you imply that both .


Just think that you can just not to take all against you, break from seeing every reasonable and some not so questions to Ginault as personal attacks to you. We are most here reasonable people and we really just wamt to hear from them. That is all.

As for my choice of "adv", again- nothing in relation to your or the other review. Maybe it should have been in quotations but I stand by my words, if someone that visits their HQ and makes a short story and pictures would be more valuable than their crazy fairy tail that started all this.

As for the Mido, yeaaa, I think it would be fun comparison, cause price ( being expensive but you can find for around 600, if Ginault keeps that discounted one), having quite accurate movements and with the credit to the Mido original design. Would be interested.
As I by the way have the Mido, quite enabled by your review 

So again, there is nothing in my words even remotely connected with you and the other review, it is just coincidence that 2 other members suggested visiting them.

Though, Ginault, if you are legit, I "demand" you  to permit those guys visit and shoot some good review story that will close the mouths of most of the non believers, that is the right path.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Chocodove said:


> "Swiss Made" is a whole other ball of wax and could easily be another 100+ page thread .
> 
> Speaking specifically regarding Ginault, my question is if the watch is "built" or "made" in the USA. There is a difference, neither of which option is necessarily better than the other, but their own markings on the watch are confusing to me. Is simply the caseback manufactured in the USA, while the watch as a whole is assembled in the USA of components from various parts of the world? Again, doesn't particularly matter either way, but my feeling is that consumers should be able to ask these questions to gain clarification if the company chooses to market directly via a watch forum.


Agreed on both counts. There is probably already a 100+ page thread on the Swiss Made debate...

There is no doubt that there is a distinction to be made based on what we see on the dial (and box interior), and the caseback. I am pretty sure there are some components of the watch that were not manufactured in the USA.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

As a slight digression, I've long disliked the WUS "terminology" when using replica, I think it's used incorrectly here. IMHO I think these are the correct words and descriptions:


Counterfeit - an illegal copy of a watch that uses the originals branding and name to deceive.
Replica - a 1:1 copy of an existing watch (e.g. Parnis) but one that uses its own branding.
Homage - a copy of an existing watch, but that has been changed (subtle or not) to recreate the aesthetics of the original (e.g. NTH, Steinhart, Raven).

1 is illegal and morally and ethically wrong. 2 is not illegal but there are strong opinions on the ethical/morals of these. 3 is generally considered OK, but again can cause emotions to run riot; steinhart being a good example.

As far a Ginault is concerned it falls into 2 (in my view) and I'm perfectly happy with that; it's not illegal and it looks good (......well apart from the lume colour and the red seconds hand).

I'm prepared to be educated or debate politely this if anyone disagrees!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

But doesn't the Ginault differ from the 16610? Closer in some regards to the 5517 - or perhaps better- a collage of the two.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> But doesn't the Ginault differ from the 16610? Closer in some regards to the 5517 - or perhaps better- a collage of the two.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


If that was for me Radar then I'll bow to your superior knowledge on Rolex subs, they all look very similar to me. That'll put it somewhere between 2 and 3 then......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> If that was for me Radar then I'll bow to your superior knowledge on Rolex subs, they all look very similar to me. That'll put it somewhere between 2 and 3 then......


Let's agree on a 2.5. Bit of a mashup between both models.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

The Ginault Ocean Rover is a cross between the 16610 and the 14060M, the 16610 has a date window and cyclop, the case and dial size of the Ginault is closer to the 16610 than the 14060M (+1mm). 

A slight difference in case shape, both Rolex 14060 and 16610 have a lug to lug measurement of 48mm while the Ginault is 50mm.

a big difference is the domed crystal of the Ginault, I find the flat crystal of the modern Submariner uninspiring.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> As a slight digression, I've long disliked the WUS "terminology" when using replica, I think it's used incorrectly here. IMHO I think these are the correct words and descriptions:
> 
> 
> Counterfeit - an illegal copy of a watch that uses the originals branding and name to deceive.
> ...


The word "replica" is commonly used to mean "counterfeit", both here at WUS and in the world at large. Google "replica watch" and see what you get.

And again, because we're now several pages from my previous post on this, the Ginault is not a replica (counterfeit). The reason this subject has come up at all is because of Ginault's choice to plagiarize the marketing materials of a replica (counterfeit) watch maker.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

kelt said:


> The Ginault Ocean Rover is a cross between the 16610 and the 14060M, the 16610 has a date window and cyclop, the case and dial size of the Ginault is closer to the 16610 than the 14060M (+1mm).
> 
> A slight difference in case shape, both Rolex 14060 and 16610 have a lug to lug measurement of 48mm while the Ginault is 50mm.
> 
> ...


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> The word "replica" is commonly used to mean "counterfeit", both here at WUS and in the world at large. Google "replica watch" and see what you get.


Yep, fully aware of that. Still think that it doesn't seem right.......

General definition of replica:
An exact copy or model of something, especially one on a smaller scale

General definition of counterfeit:
Made in exact imitation of something valuable with the intention to deceive or defraud

I think that people who buy counterfeit watches use the word replica as it sounds better......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

kelt said:


> The Ginault Ocean Rover is a cross between the 16610 and the 14060M, the 16610 has a date window and cyclop, the case and dial size of the Ginault is closer to the 16610 than the 14060M (+1mm).
> 
> A slight difference in case shape, both Rolex 14060 and 16610 have a lug to lug measurement of 48mm while the Ginault is 50mm.
> 
> a big difference is the domed crystal of the Ginault, I find the flat crystal of the modern Submariner uninspiring


The lug-to-lug on the Ginault is 47.6mm according to my measurement. I can check again.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

CMSgt Bo said:


> You wouldn't, I've removed over two dozen potentially libelous posts made by a competitor and others.


Believe you need actual proof of malicious intent

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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Allow me to remind everyone it's not only inappropriate and irresponsible to disparage a manufacture (Sponsor or not) with wild accusations, but it can also be legally actionable if it is done with the intent to damage the reputation of that manufacture. I have removed content and banned members for doing this very thing to non Sponsors, so expect the same potential recourse here. Regardless of what many think, in most cases you're not anonymous and you are always responsible for your words and actions.


And allow me to remind everyone that the claims made here, which to the best of my knowledge haven't been presented as fact, are only legally actionable if the claims are false....... Errr, they're only legally winnable if the claims are false ;-).



jmanlay said:


> Believe you need actual proof of malicious intent
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While that's the standard for public libel which certainly hasn't been met, for private on private libel all you need is negligence on the part of the offending party. I don't think that anything posted here, even the few deleted posts that I have read, meet that standard either, but should the Ginault have no relation, in any way shape or form, to the fake Sub then they could reasonably sue were any damages caused by posts on this forum. Then again, I only asked our attorney what would count as libel in this case, so YMMV....

Luckily for everyone, ALL of this could be put to bed if Ginault would just post a simple "we've never even heard of that guy, and sure as heck wouldn't use the case designed to deceive in our homage. Here's more info on how and where the watch is made, since we claim its made in the USA. And an explanation about why we used their ad copy verbatim." That being said, when you google the company owner's name there are two different rep forums in the top 5 results, so......


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I am pretty certain that short of WUS seeking direct legal counsel on the matter, the forum will take absolutely zero chances. That is the prudent approach.


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

Not here to debate replica or not but what I'm really curious is will Ginault even survive. I highly doubt they sold any watches at full retail. With the way the Swiss market is going will they pull a deaumar? Or hexa. Only reason a few guys here bought them was cuz the discount, I don't see these selling unless they continue the discount.


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## jdc222 (Jan 16, 2011)

CMSgt Bo said:


> You wouldn't, I've removed over two dozen potentially libelous posts made by a competitor and others.


You wouldn't have if they were site sponsors!


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

We don't know anything was plagiarized. Ginault may be buying parts and using the maker's words with permission.

Reality is, parts suppliers often move to legitimate business after manufacturing replica bits.

*As WIS we should support suppliers moving up to legit business* (and its QC standards)! |>

Even if this did copy a specific Rolex, designs don't pay the creator forever, among other reasons because public domain law says otherwise. This is a mishmash of Rolex cues in a well-built watch. \

I've built dozens of Sub homages, relumed many more, owned divers from Armida Helson OWC Lew and Huey Raven Deep Blue Omega Zenton etc; have an 80s Rolex on the bench atm. Just bought a Ginault.


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## centurionavre (Mar 31, 2013)

AVS_Racing said:


> Not here to debate replica or not but what I'm really curious is will Ginault even survive. I highly doubt they sold any watches at full retail. With the way the Swiss market is going will they pull a deaumar? Or hexa. Only reason a few guys here bought them was cuz the discount, I don't see these selling unless they continue the discount.


I don't think they intend to be a volume manufacturer. From all the postings (including off WUS, in the real "boonies", just Google Ginault), Ginault seems to be a side hobby. John McMurtry / Charles Ginault is more interested in building up very well made watches with scratch made cases made to exacting tolerances.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


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## erikclabaugh (Mar 10, 2011)

Is the Ginault the new model from Monta? Now I'm really confused...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

erikclabaugh said:


> Is the Ginault the new model from Monta? Now I'm really confused...


Different watches. The Monta is significantly more expensive. While it looks outstanding, the pricing is pretty ambitious.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

jdc222 said:


> You wouldn't have if they were site sponsors!


You just can't resist yourself, can you?

I have banned Sponsors and blacklisted others from ever becoming Sponsors.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Avo said:


> The word "replica" is commonly used to mean "counterfeit", both here at WUS and in the world at large. Google "replica watch" and see what you get.
> 
> And again, because we're now several pages from my previous post on this, the Ginault is not a replica (counterfeit). The reason this subject has come up at all is because of Ginault's choice to plagiarize the marketing materials of a replica (counterfeit) watch maker.


Usually the name replica is favoured by those who see no evil in counterfeiting luxury items.

Only someone privy of the world of Fake Rolex Submariner could have recognized a wording similarity in describing the process of manufacturing bezel rings.

Ginault acknowledged the outsourcing of the bezel fabrication, it's an easy guess that the marketing wording came from the outsourced bezel maker, anyone sharing the same bezel supplier may/would have used the same wording.

On a side note, when applied to the internal machining of gun barrels, broaching is called simply "rifling".


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## calwatchguy (Jun 23, 2015)

Wow this thread is like a train wreck. I don't really care, but can't stop reading it. 

Nice looking watch. The actual reviews seem balanced and reasonable for a watch at the discounted price. 

If folks have doubts, don't buy the watch. We are spoiled for choice in the sub homage market. 

I would say that it's a slippery slope for a maker to answer things directly in a thread as that can become defensive and end badly. Instead they should clarify things on their website vs face the angry mob directly. Just my two cents. 

Personally, I've spotted other watches in this segment that I would prefer before going this route. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

Can't recall a watch/brand which have sparked such a backlash as this one and with so little input from the manufacturer..... very odd not wanting to defend your name and product at every opportunity.

Know nothing about the man behind the brand so can only really give an opinion on the product itself and from the photos and the reviews it appears to be a much better than average micro diver. Not sure I would pay $1300 for something with such a rollercoaster start to life but at the $600 I can fully understand why one would which makes me wonder if they will be able to sell these at retail?


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> Believe you need actual proof of malicious intent
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is yours enough?


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> The lug-to-lug on the Ginault is 47.6mm according to my measurement. I can check again.[/UNQUOTE]
> 
> You have already provided a different measurement for the watch thickness, with 47,6mm your exemplary of the Ginault is a close match to the Submariner 16610 in size and of the 14060M in looks, lucky you and a great buy!
> 
> On an aside this witch hunt has one unwanted result = more advertising it is a backlash on the witch hunters, they can carry on..... sand castles are erased by the rising tide.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

kelt said:


> You have already provided a different measurement for the watch thickness, with 47,6mm your exemplary of the Ginault is a close match to the Submariner 16610 in size and of the 14060M in looks, lucky you and a great buy!
> 
> On an aside this witch hunt has one unwanted result = more advertising it is a backlash on the witch hunters, they can carry on..... sand castles are erased by the rising tide.


Collateral damage! For some.


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

If Ginault makes a Smurf or Hulk homage with the same case I'm all in. Never been a huge fan of the military models. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Wow. This thread has taken a disappointing turn 


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

I had a chance to read Radar1's reposting of Ginault's response to his queries before it got censored. There was a mention of "Mr. Ginault" in the response. My question is where the heck did "Mr. Ginault" come from? It seemed out of the blue. The guy who sounded like the main guy of Ginault was a guy named McMurty, wasn't it? Ginault being more than a brand name, being an actual person, was never indicated before, right?

There are too many things that doesn't add up with the company. Don't get me wrong. The product, Ocean Rover, seems fine and well-made from the reviews. The company, on the other hand, brings forth too many questions. Remember the adage, as someone mentioned - buy the seller and you won't go wrong.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Jeep99dad said:


> Wow. This thread has taken a disappointing turn
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


+1


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

As always a few people spoil it


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## Crezo (Apr 3, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> View attachment 10449218
> 
> 
> View attachment 10449242
> ...


The clarity on that crystal looks amazing! It does look superbly well made, hope you enjoy it!

Can I suggest we try and keep the conversations civil and about the WATCH rather than the background of the company and the source of parts.

I came back to here earlier in the week excited to see a huge amount of extra posts, and was looking more to finding out more abiut the watch... only to find out its become a slanging match and appears to be more like reddit than the WUS I know and love.

We can argue about generic parts all we like, and I imaging 80%+ of micro manufacturers probably use the same suppliers for cases in rolex style divers and pilot watches. It makes business sense, and there's nothing wrong with that especially if you modify them afterwards. But that's a conversation you really can't realistically expect a company to answer, we all know Swiss companies that charge many many thousands don't manufacture every single part, and there's no angry mission to get them too.

So can we ease try and keep this all civil and focus on the watch itself?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

pepcr1 said:


> As always a few people spoil it


Don't think this is people driven

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> Don't think this is people driven
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Beg to differ. Some of it is and that is despite repeated warnings by multiple Mods.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Caltex88 (Nov 24, 2016)

RNHC said:


> I had a chance to read Radar1's reposting of Ginault's response to his queries before it got censored. There was a mention of "Mr. Ginault" in the response. My question is where the heck did "Mr. Ginault" come from? It seemed out of the blue. The guy who sounded like the main guy of Ginault was a guy named McMurty, wasn't it? Ginault being more than a brand name, being an actual person, was never indicated before, right?
> 
> There are too many things that doesn't add up with the company. Don't get me wrong. The product, Ocean Rover, seems fine and well-made from the reviews. The company, on the other hand, brings forth too many questions. Remember the adage, as someone mentioned - buy the seller and you won't go wrong.


Per the Nevada comptroller The primary officer of Ginault, LLC is a Mr. Charles Ginault.

If you've been following this whole thread, it is suspected he or his associate might be a certain well known and very skilled watchmaker on the other side of the industry.

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Crezo said:


> ... I imaging 80%+ of micro manufacturers probably use the same suppliers for cases in rolex style divers and pilot watches. It makes business sense, and there's nothing wrong with that especially if you modify them afterwards. But that's a conversation you really can't realistically expect a company to answer, we all know Swiss companies that charge many many thousands don't manufacture every single part, and there's no angry mission to get them too.


You are probably right and there is absolutely nothing wrong with outsourcing. That's the reality of modern manufacturing. My question is why is Ginault claiming or implying that it doesn't - that everything is done in-house from domestic (American) parts from domestic supplier. That just doesn't any sense (to me, at least). :think:


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And has been for several years - all the way back to when they built and sold the Base One and were not able to get the Secret Service model to market. My understanding on good authority is that there is a team in play. 

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Caltex88 said:


> Per the Nevada comptroller The primary officer of Ginault, LLC is a Mr. Charles Ginault.
> 
> If you've been following this whole thread, it is suspected he might be a certain well known and very skilled watchmaker on the other side of the industry.


That part came after Radar1's posting of Ginault's reply, I believe. I, honestly, thought Ginault was a brand name only and McMurty was the guy behind it. I was surprised that there actually would be a person named Ginault.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Crezo said:


> The clarity on that crystal looks amazing! It does look superbly well made, hope you enjoy it!
> 
> Can I suggest we try and keep the conversations civil and about the WATCH rather than the background of the company and the source of parts.
> 
> ...


I added a review with lots of photos a couple of days ago on this forum. The watch is a real stunner and beautifully executed.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

jmanlay said:


> Don't think this is people driven
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you read the previous posts?


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

RNHC said:


> I had a chance to read Radar1's reposting of Ginault's response to his queries before it got censored.


It's not censorship, it's called editing to protect privacy and enforce our rules. Maybe you should read them sometime.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

I think the underlying cause of certain negative tone in this thread is people conflating Ginault and its product, Ocean Rover.

The product, Ocean Rover, does seem well made. According to FireMonk3y and Radar1, Ocean Rover seems to be a finely made product from their testimonies and photos. Who am I to gainsay their assessment? 

The company, Ginault, on the other hand, does bring forth many questions that could have been easily answered but hasn't by Ginault. I don't think there is anything wrong for a potential consumer to ask questions. The questions, I imagine, will continue to be asked until Ginault or somebody addresses them.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

CMSgt Bo said:


> It's not censorship, it's called editing to protect privacy and enforce our rules. Maybe you should read them sometime.


censor
verb cen·sor 
transitive verb
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <_censor _the news>; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable <_censor_ out indecent passages>

Isn't that what you did? Forgive me if I have it wrong.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

RNHC said:


> That part came after Radar1's posting of Ginault's reply, I believe. I, honestly, thought Ginault was a brand name only and McMurty was the guy behind it. I was surprised that there actually would be a person named Ginault.


My I suggest doing a search with the words "Ginault Base Module 1", it will give you a link to a fellow enthusiast watch site where you will see the name Charles Ginault mentioned way back in 2010 almost 7 years ago at the very start of the company.... he's not new.

I'm sure some parts as stated have been manufactured in the US, why would anyone question this... are they implying America don't have the skills? plus I don't doubt their claim of built in the USA as some ours do this like LumTec. As for the rest of their claims I'll wait until they chime in with more information because until then what's the point.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Luminated said:


> My I suggest doing a search with the words "Ginault Base Module 1", it will give you a link to a fellow enthusiast watch site where you will see the name Charles Ginault mentioned way back in 2010 almost 7 years ago at the very start of the company.... he's not new.


I believe you. All I'm saying is that I've never heard of Ginault until this thread was started and didn't realize Ginault was a real person.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> We don't know anything was plagiarized. Ginault may be buying parts and using the maker's words with permission.
> 
> Reality is, parts suppliers often move to legitimate business after manufacturing replica bits.
> 
> ...


Right on! Read your post a few days back regarding their markers and thought that was insightful. One thing I really liked about my 116610LV is the dial and the markers. Although simple but it is very chic at the same time exudes certain elegance. I have not received mine yet but from Ginault's pictures it carries that same swag a Rolex does. Looking forward to your expert review about the watch. Do you plan on taking the whole thing part?


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

RNHC said:


> censor
> verb cen·sor
> transitive verb
> : to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <_censor _the news>; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable <_censor_ out indecent passages>
> ...


Why don't you just let it go? Let's discuss the watch and not indulge in wild speculation, that cannot be proven.......

Edit; there are certain thing that I don't like about the watch (marketing, price, aesthetics, etc), but it looks well made and isn't counterfeit.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

RNHC said:


> I believe you. All I'm saying is that I've never heard of Ginault until this thread was started and didn't realize Ginault was a real person.


Until this thread why would you?


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

A picture is worth more than 56 pages of keyboard vomit from forum trolls and paid brand lackeys..


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

My opinion of this new OR is that compared to their original BM1 they are super proud of their achievements to the point that they give it a dial text in the favour the Rolex... my guess is they feel many untrained eyes would be fooled into thinking it's a Rolex such is the quality of its execution.

I also think this is as much the reason why the backslash has been so great.... how dare them be so cheeky.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

RNHC said:


> censor
> verb cen·sor
> transitive verb
> : to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable <_censor _the news>; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable <_censor_ out indecent passages>
> ...


Here's another one for you to look up when you're allowed back in two weeks: _temp-ban_

While you're in the books you should probably look up: _perma-ban_

And finally: _zero-tolerance_


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Hornet99 said:


> Why don't you just let it go? Let's discuss the watch and not indulge in wild speculation, that cannot be proven.......


I was simply responding to CMSgt Bo's apparent disagreement to my usage of the word "censored." I have no objections to CMSgt Bo's censoring certain posts if they do not meet the forum rules and standards. That's a part of his role at WUS, after all. However, I am puzzled at CMSgt Bo's usage of "edit" as euphemism for"censor." He obviously felt enough negative connotation to the word "censor" that he felt he needed to comment when my usage of the word "censor" was strictly in its defined sense. That's all.


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

Luminated said:


> My opinion of this new OR is that compared to their original BM1 they are super proud of their achievements to the point that they give it a dial text in the favour the Rolex... my guess is they feel many untrained eyes would be fooled into thinking it's a Rolex such is the quality of its execution.
> 
> I also think this is as much the reason why the backslash has been so great.... how dare them be so cheeky.


Yup, this thread is exactly the validation Ginault was hoping for.

I haven't taken mine off for three days! when the ice and snow passes I'll take some pictures and do a review too. I'm finding it scratches the itch nicely compared to the box of "others" have to compare it too...


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

RNHC said:


> I was simply responding to CMSgt Bo's apparent disagreement to my usage of the word "censored." I have no objections to CMSgt Bo's censoring certain posts if they do not meet the forum rules and standards. That's a part of his role at WUS, after all. However, I am puzzled at CMSgt Bo's usage of "edit" as euphemism for"censor." He obviously felt enough negative connotation to the word "censor" that he felt he needed to comment when my usage of the word "censor" was strictly in its defined sense. That's all.


Really didn't take the hint did you? Aaaaaah, sorry you can't see this now........


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

kelt said:


> Is yours enough?


Funny why don't you show me where I have said anything w malicious intent . Accusing me of it is however malicious at worse and at best dishonest but you seem to be an expert right ?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Hornet99 said:


> Really didn't take the hint did you? Aaaaaah, sorry you can't see this now........


I bet if his unauthorized private correspondence was posted here and we removed it he wouldn't be calling our action censorship.


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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

Man, I can't wait for mine to get here...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

OldeCrow said:


> A picture is worth more than 56 pages of keyboard vomit from forum trolls and paid brand lackeys..


Who are the "paid brand lackeys"?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> Collateral damage! For some.
> 
> View attachment 10446290


Yeees! It speaks for itself, it's a beauty. The lovers of Submariner who mourned the removal of the 14060 and the arrival of the bulky 114060 will be interested.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Who are the "paid brand lackeys"?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I will take one for free. Does that help? I could be an ambassador in my street

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> I will take one for free. Does that help? I could be an ambassador in my street
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe a 1000 word review would get it done for them.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Hornet99 said:


> Really didn't take the hint did you? Aaaaaah, sorry you can't see this now........


I would have banned him permanently. It's clear to me that the sole (dys)function here is to bully and antagonise. I'd say he got off light.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Maybe you've said enough... dont be a sore winner.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I bit my tongue for many pages. He refused to heed several warnings. Nothing to do with winning or losing. Relentlessly attack and insult people and pay the price.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Maybe you've said enough... dont be a sore winner.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BTW - not a forum member I would be throwing my support behind. Your choice entirely.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

tell you what, yes I will do a thousand word review and I will not even keep it.
I will test drive it. then can send it to the next reasonable member for inspection and further review.
the proof I suppose is in the pudding, so I will take one for a spin and even compare it to my exp II and do a honest comparison.
I am not technical expert but I can tell if it does or not keep good time and if the finish is what it should be in in that range. i have a few pieces that are nice and I have handled ChrWards to Steinhart to Helberg so I think I have got a pretty good idea of what is what and at what price range.
again no pro but a reasonable enthusiast here.

so I can always ask 



Radar1 said:


> Maybe a 1000 word review would get it done for them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Im not throwing support to anyone. Im asking you to give it a rest. Thats all ill say about it. Keep it to the watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Give it a rest?? I put up with that guy's unwarranted antagonism and goading for several days. Very much doubt you would put up with it either. I have added plenty of value related to the watch. A few others - not so much.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jmanlay said:


> tell you what, yes I will do a thousand word review and I will not even keep it.
> I will test drive it. then can send it to the next reasonable member for inspection and further review.
> the proof I suppose is in the pudding, so I will take one for a spin and even compare it to my exp II and do a honest comparison.
> I am not technical expert but I can tell if it does or not keep good time and if the finish is what it should be in in that range. i have a few pieces that are nice and I have handled ChrWards to Steinhart to Helberg so I think I have got a pretty good idea of what is what and at what price range.
> ...


No harm in asking at all. I think you would find it up to snuff.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

email sent



Radar1 said:


> No harm in asking at all. I think you would find it up to snuff.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Let's get back to watches folks...

There's nothing to see here.


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> Who are the "paid brand lackeys"?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I should be above flinging insults myself but I just had to get a jab in at all the "Negative Nanceys?, Nancy's?, Nancies?" 
I choose to believe people so determined to malign a watch must be getting paid by another brand otherwise they would have better things to do. They would be the "paid brand lackeys"

I bought the Ginault, I think it checks all the boxes for a great sub homage, I don't care for the flowery ad speak but it will appeal to the general consumer as a magazine ad and in that respect even the flowery ad speak is spot on. 
I think it's everything it claims to be, it certainly looks as good in person as it does in the first post. It's one of very few true sub case homages that is rated for 300m, it has screws in the links that have real threads and they actually work, it has a half link in the bracelet for micro-adjustment also not often seen on sub homages, mine is running at chronometer spec and looks amazing on my Timegrapher so it was built by someone who knew what they were doing!
I've seen the Ginault compared to just about every other micro brand so far and pretty much none of them are actually sub homages, I've seen comments about ceramic inserts also not appropriate for a classic sub homage, It's a near perfect combo of the 16610, vintage high dome crystal and modern maxi dial with MOD Sword hour and minute hands with a red second hand to for a unique touch. 
If you like the classic sub case and dimensions it will be impossible for you to not like this watch!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

OldeCrow said:


> I should be above flinging insults myself but I just had to get a jab in at all the "Negative Nanceys?, Nancy's?, Nancies?"
> I choose to believe people so determined to malign a watch must be getting paid by another brand otherwise they would have better things to do. They would be the "paid brand lackeys"
> 
> I bought the Ginault, I think it checks all the boxes for a great sub homage, I don't care for the flowery ad speak but it will appeal to the general consumer as a magazine ad and in that respect even the flowery ad speak is spot on.
> ...


I am in full agreement. I can only speculate as to why all the persistent aggression towards the watch/company - and anyone who chose to buy it. When all is said and done it is a gorgeous watch and that's the bottom line. Wear yours in good health.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Here's another one for you to look up when you're allowed back in two weeks: _temp-ban_
> 
> While you're in the books you should probably look up: _perma-ban_
> 
> And finally: _zero-tolerance_


It's about time, now maybe we can get to back to the watch, Thank you!


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Early in this thread I asked the seller/maker of the Ginault a bunch of questions about OR particulars and having read all of this thread and the related threads and reviews, have not read a single answer to them, so I won't be buying at even the discount price. 

To me, the NTH Amphion is a better watch at the discount price. The Ginault MSRP is totally unrealistic, IMHO.


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## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

My order did show that it was dropped off at the post office Friday night. Should hopefully have it mid week, and my review soon to follow. The more I look at the pictures, the more difficult it
is to wait! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calwatchguy (Jun 23, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> Early in this thread I asked the seller/maker of the Ginault a bunch of questions about OR particulars and having read all of this thread and the related threads and reviews, have not read a single answer to them, so I won't be buying at even the discount price.


Agreed. I'd rather give my money to folks who are a bit more engaged like some of the other micros around here.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> Early in this thread I asked the seller/maker of the Ginault a bunch of questions about OR particulars and having read all of this thread and the related threads and reviews, have not read a single answer to them, so I won't be buying at even the discount price.
> 
> To me, the NTH Amphion is a better watch at the discount price. The Ginault MSRP is totally unrealistic, IMHO.


Pretty hard to make that pronouncement when you haven't handled the Ginault. You can trust the reviews, it is an exceptionally well put together watch.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> Pretty hard to make that pronouncement when you haven't handled the Ginault. You can trust the reviews, it is an exceptionally well put together watch.


I trust the reviews of the outside, it's my questions about the inside I want answered prior to buying.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> I trust the reviews of the outside, it's my questions about the inside I want answered prior to buying.


My guess is that it is a very well built ETA clone (as stated). We already know the time keeping is exceptional. For certain it could well be a much nicer movement than a bone stock 9015. It's already a certainty that it is decorated better and fully regulated. IMO it doesn't have to be Swiss or Japanese to be solid.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

OldeCrow said:


> I should be above flinging insults myself but I just had to get a jab in at all the "Negative Nanceys?, Nancy's?, Nancies?"
> I choose to believe people so determined to malign a watch must be getting paid by another brand otherwise they would have better things to do. They would be the "paid brand lackeys"
> 
> I bought the Ginault, I think it checks all the boxes for a great sub homage, I don't care for the flowery ad speak but it will appeal to the general consumer as a magazine ad and in that respect even the flowery ad speak is spot on.
> ...


Good stuff. 
Enjoy the watch. It looks great to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

yankeexpress said:


> Early in this thread I asked the seller/maker of the Ginault a bunch of questions about OR particulars and having read all of this thread and the related threads and reviews, have not read a single answer to them, so I won't be buying at even the discount price.
> 
> To me, the NTH Amphion is a better watch at the discount price. The Ginault MSRP is totally unrealistic, IMHO.


Well in all fairness most of your questions could be answered or inferred from the first post from Ginault, and they haven't responded to any questions in here. 
and in your next post in this thread you were up-selling the NTH and then you did it again in this post. Since nothing from NTH resembles a sub homage other than having 12 hour markers on the dial it seems the Ginault was never really in the cards for you from the beginning and your are just here spamming for NTH?


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

OldeCrow said:


> Well in all fairness most of your questions could be answered or inferred from the first post from Ginault, and they haven't responded to any questions in here.
> and in your next post in this thread you were up-selling the NTH and then you did it again in this post. Since nothing from NTH resembles a sub homage other than having 12 hour markers on the dial it seems the Ginault was never really in the cards for you from the beginning and your are just here spamming for NTH?


Sorry, I have no skin in this game whatsoever, but have you looked at the NTH website? There are two lines of watches: one pays homage to SuperCompressor twin crown watches of the '60s and the other features eight(!) different Sub homages.

Brands - NTH - Subs - Janis Trading Company

True, they are not homages to the 16610 or any sub with crown guards, but these are most cerainly homages to earlier, pre-crown guard subs. The 6538 big crown is the starting point. Just saying...


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

OldeCrow said:


> Well in all fairness most of your questions could be answered or inferred from the first post from Ginault, and they haven't responded to any questions in here.
> and in your next post in this thread you were up-selling the NTH and then you did it again in this post. Since nothing from NTH resembles a sub homage other than having 12 hour markers on the dial it seems the Ginault was never really in the cards for you from the beginning and your are just here spamming for NTH?


None of my questions have been answered and I don't own or have anything to do with NTH other than being a potential Amphion customer.

Have you ever seen the amphion? It is a direct homage of the same 5517 that the Ginault is a homage of.

As the owner of multiple milsub homages, I am exactly the customer Ginault should be pursuing.










Amphion


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

Jeep99dad said:


> Good stuff.
> Enjoy the watch. It looks great to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks B 
As a company Ginault may be a bit rough around the edges yet but the product is sure right!

I went through the phaze where I just couldn't find the right vintage tudor that I liked, I finally gave that up I was really just trying to not buy a real sub. 
This one so far is very comfortable on my wrist we will see if it makes it a few weeks without me thinking "not a real sub" it will be a winner!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

yankeexpress said:


> None of my questions have been answered and I don't own or have anything to do with NTH other than being a potential Amphion customer.
> 
> Have you ever seen the amphion? It is a direct homage of the same 5517 that the Ginault is a homage of.
> 
> ...


Lots of those questions were answered in their OP and on their website. It then becomes a question of whether or not you accept what they have stated. Choosing not to do so is fine, but based on what they have already said, it is a solid, well-built, and accurate movement.

*Ginault Caliber 7275. 25 Red Jewels, Rh45 Rhodium-Copper Alloy Main Plate & Bridge, Blue Steel Screws, GC31 Gears, Nivarox Hairspring, Nivarox Mainspring, WJL Shock Absorber, Date, Hour/Minute/Second Hands, 28,800 BPH, 38 Hours Power Reserve. Cut, Machined, Assembled and Fine Tuned in the United States.

*


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

With all due respect, the high-gloss black enamel dial on the Ocean-Rover blows away the textured "asphalt" look of that particular NTH model.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> With all due respect, the high-gloss black enamel dial on the Ocean-Rover blows away the textured "asphalt" look of that particular NTH model.
> 
> View attachment 10453842


Damn it you owe me a laptop....spilled water on it while reading and chuckling


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

I don't consider every oversized diver a "sub homage" the NTH divers are nice divers but they look more like half omega half black bay than submariners. I realize this is subjective but the... "Gestalt" of the classic submariner is lost with even the smallest of changes chief among them being size. I love my OWC and my Armida's and my Steinharts I can't find anything wrong with the NTH models (I don't own one yet) but they don't wear like a sub, the soul of the watch is different. This is why I for a time obsessively built one off sub homages, I have a box full of them but with sterile dials there is something underwhelming about them, I do actually have a couple out of that that build a sub phase I really like but most of them fall short of a perfect sub. If you are not looking for the classically sized shaped sub homage then there are limitless choices for sub homages out there even though I don't really consider them sub homages I don't know what else to call them.

You asked how thick the watch was, the specs from the first post say it's 15.6mm (but mine is 14mm), you asked what the beat rate was, they said in the first post it was a 2824 copy so you can infer from that it's 28.8bph, you can also infer from the first post the movement is at least partly Chinese in origin and that the main spring and hair spring are probably not, based on how well he says they run (and how well I've witnessed mine running) you asked about the clasp and admittedly they don't show a picture of it or discuss it.. but it is a micro-adjustable clasp and the bracelet has one half link as well.

There isn't actually a even techical spec page on the Ginault site yet, this is a trial by fire introduction and there has been a bit of fire but anybody who puts his blood, sweat, tears, and money in to a project like this and produces a watch like this surely deserves a little slack time to get his feet under him and show us what he can do. :think:


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## wpbmike (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm considering a purchase of the Ginault...but first, how is it pronounced?

I think it is one of the better looking vintage homages. Just not sure the price is right. It seems like closer to a $600 watch, maybe a little more. Also, I'd be more inclined to buy one right now if it just had a 9015 instead of a new movement. I don't want to be a beta tester for a new movement.

Overall, it's a handsome watch and I hope the brand is successful.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> With all due respect, the high-gloss black enamel dial on the Ocean-Rover blows away the textured "asphalt" look of that particular NTH model.
> 
> View attachment 10453842


 Nothing against NTH at all but I have to agree the overall watch even looks more high end. Just a notch above imho and just from looking at pics.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Casanova Jr. (Oct 6, 2010)

I agree based solely on pics the ginault looks the better watch compared to the nht, price is also better (after discount of course)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

_*This is like a newborn baby with a questionable DNA! it's called names right from the start but unfortunately no Father or Mother come to defend it knowing the true DNA, even though they're sitting in the waiting room smoking cigars listening to every single word said about their newborn that's thrown at the poor little bugger, surely a PROUD parent would defend the honour of their kid? otherwise what chance does that kid ever have in life knowing even it's own Parent/s didn't come to it's defence.

*_


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Alright. I've been sitting on this thought. Since nobody has said it yet, I guess I'll say it. 

When people are intent on being belligerent, and obviously do not believe anything you claim from the get go, it is best to follow a simple rule.

The Zeroth Law of Marketing: DO NOT ENGAGE. 

Nothing can be gained by picking a fight with someone who will most likely never be your customer anyway. It just makes you look like an ass. This is especially true if you believe in your product, because the product will speak for itself. 

I say this in light of the fact that Ginault has been in my experience, and apparently with others, extremely quick and forthcoming in all direct email correspondence. 

All that being said, they have obviously made some huge errors with their marketing jargon and claims. (Seemed to me that their initial marketing, which has been changed, was for someone that knew nothing of watches.) There are some questions in this thread that people want answered that are perfectly reasonable, and yet there are some other questions I've seen here that I couldn't imagine anyone asking any watch manufacturer.

Regardless, I'm simply trying to suggest that this may not be the best place to answer questions given the caustic, mob storming the castle environment that has seemed to prevail here. 

I'm sure the villagers may turn on me for just suggesting this, but oh well....


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> Alright. I've been sitting on this thought. Since nobody has said it yet, I guess I'll say it.
> 
> When people are intent on being belligerent, and obviously do not believe anything you claim from the get go, it is best to follow a simple rule.
> 
> ...


Perfectly reasonable post. I am also of the opinion that for the most vociferous of naysayers there is not a thing the company can say to sway their pre-formed opinions, much less gain their business. I think it will become quite clear (already is) that it is a beautiful watch with a ton of upside. Maybe some of us (you included) took a small leap of faith on the movement, but I am not losing sleep over that aspect at all. In fact. I am more impressed with it now than when it first landed - and that's saying something.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

aegir said:


> Alright. I've been sitting on this thought. Since nobody has said it yet, I guess I'll say it.
> 
> When people are intent on being belligerent, and obviously do not believe anything you claim from the get go, it is best to follow a simple rule.
> 
> ...


Fully agree with your assessment here and already mentioned by two other members, Ginault shouldn't engage and try to pacify the mobsters at large here.

The BM1, the previous (2010) Ginault product was a good quality homage of the 16610, the Ocean Rover is from what I have seen here an even better rendering of the Classic submariner with some attractive personality like the sword hands, the red second hand and the sandy markers, a version with a two liner dial would make it even more attractive.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> It's certainly fair to compare appearance of one against another, but let's not lose sight of the fact that at the lowest prices offered, the NTH was pre-order at $375/400 (depending on model), whereas the Ginault is, at lowest discount, $520. That's a huge difference in price, and to say one is the better value without knowing anything about the actual guts of the thing is saying, I think, too much. The 9015 is a reputable, reliable movement, and Chris at Janis Trading stands behind his product (even the Riccardo, his first model, long after warranty expired on the ST19 movement). We don't know much of anything, yet, about the Ginault movement and whether he'll stand behind his product. Time will tell; my point is that it's a bit early to be saying that one is a better value than another.
> 
> If you prefer a high-gloss enamel finish to the sandpaper of the Amphion Vintage or Blue Nacken (the latter of which I own), surely you're entitled to that opinion. But is the Ginault better executed? If you don't address that fundamental issue, it's like saying the Ginault is crap because the markers aren't white and the hands are sword-shaped. Those are aesthetic choices, not indicators of quality.
> 
> Beyond that, the two watches are worlds different. The NTH is not intended, quite obviously, to be a 1:1 copy. The Ginault pretty clearly is--notwithstanding the intentional changes to no-date, vintage lume, and sword hands--just based on the marketing materials provided by Ginault itself. I'll be reviewing the Ginault against my 16610 shortly, just as soon as Ginault arrives and I can pull it together. I may or may not include the NTH and/or OWC in that comparison. If we're talking Sub-like pieces, I might; if I limit myself to Ginault's claim that it's built a 1:1 Sub in terms of aesthetics and quality--which is a heck of a boast--at a fraction of the cost, then I'll leave the homage makers out of it.


In fairness, only one person stated categorically that one was better than the other (in favour of the the NTH) and did so without handling the OR. I don't own one of the NTH models so cannot say definitively. I can say that I prefer more design elements of the Ginault (even beyond the enamel dial - which I suspect is costlier to produce and harder to execute without flaws) and at least from photos the finishing - to my eye - looks nicer. Pre-order pricing vs post, and MSRP is a numbers game that needs to be filtered for what it is.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

kelt said:


> A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


Agreed. Definitely cleaner - dropping the lower text a little for balance.


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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

true
PS: no news from Ginault



Radar1 said:


> Beg to differ. Some of it is and that is despite repeated warnings by multiple Mods.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

kelt said:


> A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


That looks a hell of a lot better.


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

kelt said:


> A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


That is an improvement for sure on a watch I already like a lot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> In fairness, only one person stated categorically that one was better than the other (in favour of the the NTH) and did so without handling the OR. I don't own one of the NTH models so cannot say definitively. I can say that I prefer more design elements of the Ginault (even beyond the enamel dial - which I suspect is costlier to produce and harder to execute without flaws) and at least from photos the finishing - to my eye - looks nicer. Pre-order pricing vs post, and MSRP is a numbers game that needs to be filtered for what it is.





hwa said:


> It's certainly fair to compare appearance of one against another, but let's not lose sight of the fact that at the lowest prices offered, the NTH was pre-order at $375/400 (depending on model), whereas the Ginault is, at lowest discount, $520. That's a huge difference in price, and to say one is the better value without knowing anything about the actual guts of the thing is saying, I think, too much. The 9015 is a reputable, reliable movement, and Chris at Janis Trading stands behind his product (even the Riccardo, his first model, long after warranty expired on the ST19 movement). We don't know much of anything, yet, about the Ginault movement and whether he'll stand behind his product. Time will tell; my point is that it's a bit early to be saying that one is a better value than another.
> 
> If you prefer a high-gloss enamel finish to the sandpaper of the Amphion Vintage or Blue Nacken (the latter of which I own), surely you're entitled to that opinion. But is the Ginault better executed? If you don't address that fundamental issue, it's like saying the Ginault is crap because the markers aren't white and the hands are sword-shaped. Those are aesthetic choices, not indicators of quality.
> 
> Beyond that, the two watches are worlds different. The NTH is not intended, quite obviously, to be a 1:1 copy. The Ginault pretty clearly is--notwithstanding the intentional changes to no-date, vintage lume, and sword hands--just based on the marketing materials provided by Ginault itself. I'll be reviewing the Ginault against my 16610 shortly, just as soon as Ginault arrives and I can pull it together. I may or may not include the NTH and/or OWC in that comparison. If we're talking Sub-like pieces, I might; if I limit myself to Ginault's claim that it's built a 1:1 Sub in terms of aesthetics and quality--which is a heck of a boast--at a fraction of the cost, then I'll leave the homage makers out of it.


I quite like the NTH with the blue dial and I've only see good things from the brand and it's owner. Am a fan. I can't speak to specific hands on quality, I do prefer the Ginault glossy dial finish on that watch, it suits it- again purely based on photos posted here.

I also think the pic of the black NTH above didn't do it justice. But I do prefer that sandpaper finish on the blue model personally. I think NTH did more to infuse their own personality rather than build a full blown homage like Ginault. Different goals and both seem to have done a good job with their watches. They are very different to me. I wouldn't buy a Nacken instead of the Ginault or vice Versa. They could "cohabitate" in my watchbox 

What's the current price of that Nacken?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

SHANE 1000 said:


> _*This is like a newborn baby with a questionable DNA! it's called names right from the start but unfortunately no Father or Mother come to defend it knowing the true DNA, even though they're sitting in the waiting room smoking cigars listening to every single word said about their newborn that's thrown at the poor little bugger, surely a PROUD parent would defend the honour of their kid? otherwise what chance does that kid ever have in life knowing even it's own Parent/s didn't come to it's defence.
> 
> *_


I like this 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> I quite like the NTH with the blue dial and I've only see good things from the brand and it's owner. Am a fan. I can't speak to specific hands on quality, I do prefer the Ginault glossy dial finish on that watch, it suits it- again purely based on photos posted here.
> 
> I also think the pic of the black NTH above didn't do it justice. But I do prefer that sandpaper finish on the blue model personally. I think NTH did more to infuse their own personality rather than build a full blown homage like Ginault. Different goals and both seem to have done a good job with their watches. They are very different to me. I wouldn't buy a Nacken instead of the Ginault or vice Versa. They could "cohabitate" in my watchbox
> 
> ...


Looks like it is around $600. Seems as though the website picks up my IP and shows a price of $795 CDN or so.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> I like this
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it is quite possible that they do not wish to be dragged into a firestorm on this thread. Pros and cons to both approaches, but given the "tenor" of some of the attacks, they may have chosen a prudent approach. I am not sure what can and can't be disclosed here, but I was provided information on the origins of the movement parts, the dial, bracelet, and clasp. They have very clearly identified which movement parts were sourced outside the USA on their website. I am sure they would answer other respectful emails from forum members in that regard. There is no way they will be bullied into a dogfight.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

Jeep99dad said:


> Nothing against NTH at all but I have to agree the overall watch even looks more high end. Just a notch above imho and just from looking at pics.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only one notch above? lol


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

I hope Ginault will do a really really good homage Explorer I in the future. Preferably more like the newest version released in 2016.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> I think it is quite possible that they do not wish to be dragged into a firestorm on this thread. Pros and cons to both approaches, but given the "tenor" of some of the attacks, they may have chosen a prudent approach. I am not sure what can and can't be disclosed here, but I was provided information on the origins of the movement parts, the dial, bracelet, and clasp. They have very clearly identified which movement parts were sourced outside the USA on their website. I am sure they would answer other respectful emails from forum members in that regard. There is no way they will be bullied into a dogfight.


*
In all fairness here, the watch in question is by appearance very nicely done, not many can argue that really regardless of style and movement and so on copy or not, homage blah blah? it is what it is, a nicely executed timepiece, even I like it but would never buy one (Just not my style or size but I do respect anyone that builds a watch especially to this standard WELL DONE Ginault)*|>|>*However all that said and done this is a public forum chosen by Ginault to show it off and display the watch and some information about it in hopes of getting peoples interest and ultimately for some to purchase, so again without trying to stir things up, if you are a seller of a product that chooses to come to a public forum, then why not answer a few potential buyers questions and even just simply ignore the negatives, I truly believe if they had answered some of the peoples queries here, most of the negativity could have been diminished pretty easily really, Ginault was on here numerous times reading all of what has been said, good and bad, that's the nature of the beast with anything that is ever sold regardless Nobody can change that. There will always be those that love and those that hate with anything out there, Now it's my opinion that it might not have gotten as large in the negative department as it turned out on this particular thread, had Ginault out of just respect to the potential buyers answered a few and win some hearts even now being on a public forum trying to tout ones wares there will be the positives the negatives and of course the Trolls that really have little interest in the subject at all from the OP! but a seller shouldn't worry about the Trolls out to destroy. All they should really be worried about is winning the hearts of the few that Like or love the look, and would have probably bought, but might be on the fence whether to or not now.
Anyway personally I wish them luck, it's a crazy world out there and even more crazy with the anonymity of some people on these public forums.*o|


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Been kickin this for the last few days. Want to get a real feel for it before throwing up my thoughts.









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> The NTH MSRP is $600. There are coupons to reduce that, and a second run with new colorways (same case) is forthcoming. Gilt, rootbeer, blue, etc.
> 
> I wrote a blue diver smackdown recently, with nth up against smp and owc. There are nths that are visually alike the Ginault, but nth is more tool, Ginault more dress. Nth would never be confused with a rep; Ginault is intended to be.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please explain why it is a "rep".


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Knoc said:


> Been kickin this for the last few days. Want to get a real feel for it before throwing up my thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 10458970
> 
> ...


Congrats on your fine pick-up, Knoc. |>


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

hwa said:


> The NTH MSRP is $600. There are coupons to reduce that, and a second run with new colorways (same case) is forthcoming. Gilt, rootbeer, blue, etc.
> 
> I wrote a blue diver smackdown recently, with nth up against smp and owc. There are nths that are visually alike the Ginault, but nth is more tool, Ginault more dress. Nth would never be confused with a rep; Ginault is intended to be.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fully agree with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeep99dad (Sep 4, 2009)

Radar1 said:


> I think it is quite possible that they do not wish to be dragged into a firestorm on this thread. Pros and cons to both approaches, but given the "tenor" of some of the attacks, they may have chosen a prudent approach. I am not sure what can and can't be disclosed here, but I was provided information on the origins of the movement parts, the dial, bracelet, and clasp. They have very clearly identified which movement parts were sourced outside the USA on their website. I am sure they would answer other respectful emails from forum members in that regard. There is no way they will be bullied into a dogfight.


Can't say I blame them, the thread has turned a bit nasty. Just the WIS in us love answers  and it'd have been nice for them to provide some initially on their own thread and ignore the BS posts perhaps

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> You can read his marketing materials yourself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am looking at the watch on my wrist. It is a homage, not a rep. If I am mistaken please inform how. Clearly it is a mashup of different Sub models and not a "1:1", as suggested, to any. The company claims it to be a homage (not a rep and not a copy, whatever that distinction may be - if any) to the 16610.

"It is actually very hard to make a classic 16610 Submariner homage so close to the original blueprint."


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jeep99dad said:


> Can't say I blame them, the thread has turned a bit nasty. Just the WIS in us love answers
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty sure there was willingness to discuss in greater detail until it became so ugly. I would encourage anyone with questions to simply shoot them an email. The address is posted clearly on their website. I am sure a non-confrontational tone will elicit a response, given my experience with them to date. |>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Congrats on your fine pick-up, Knoc. |>


Solid dude.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

hwa said:


> ... Nth would never be confused with a rep; Ginault is intended to be.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think a more accurate statement would be NTH would never be confused with a Rolex ; Ginault is intended to be.

That Sums up this thread entirely, many people in here are clearly uncomfortable with a watch that can be easily confused with another but that is exactly the Point of a good homage, at a second glance it's obviously not what you thought but it's good enough to make you look twice. Just about any watch enthusiast can glance at a watch and know what it's NOT, and that tells you it's not similar enough to call it an homage to anything else.

As far s the cleaner dial goes, all you have to do is look at the watch it's an homage too and you can see why the text is on the dial, but since it's got the MOD sword hands further styling ques from the 5517 would give you the cleaner dial too.

Since this is a classic sub homage different dials and hands are readily available so it would be easy for any of us who own it to make it just the way we want it.


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## Casanova Jr. (Oct 6, 2010)

hwa said:


> The NTH MSRP is $600. There are coupons to reduce that, and a second run with new colorways (same case) is forthcoming. Gilt, rootbeer, blue, etc.
> 
> I wrote a blue diver smackdown recently, with nth up against smp and owc. There are nths that are visually alike the Ginault, but nth is more tool, Ginault more dress. Nth would never be confused with a rep; Ginault is intended to be.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


how can the ginault be confused for a rep ? you have their big name and logo printed on the dial, red second hand and the sand color used is very particular, never seen that shade on any other watch


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

Radar1 said:


> Pretty sure there was willingness to discuss in greater detail until it became so ugly. *I would encourage anyone with questions to simply shoot them an email*. The address is posted clearly on their website. I am sure a non-confrontational tone will elicit* a response*, given my experience with them to date. |>


 See I sincerely do think that right there is one of the biggest problems here, they will answer numerous emails which is GOOD but also so time consuming for them and also probably very frustrating having to answer the same questions again and again from numerous potentials (I'm sure most emails questions are mirrored by many), when they could have just simply answered general questions here on _*their thread after all*_, in literally a few minutes, instead of hours sifting and answering emails, it's not like they have not been here to read the contents of this thread, that way maybe the only emails they get might have been *I WANT ONE how do I PAY? *because they would already know the answers to their questions that they might have had from reading it on this thread to begin with TIME SAVER realistically.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

valuewatchguy said:


> I hope Ginault will do a really really good homage Explorer I in the future. Preferably more like the newest version released in 2016.


Oh man....must resist!!!! I have been trying to stay away from TRF and looking at pictures. This hobby is poison !!


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Luminated (Dec 1, 2012)

hwa said:


> Look, i dont mean to be glib or cute. I say Ginault intends to be a rep because i read all the marketing materials. He says he want to build a 1:1 version of the Sub with what he says is zero points for design originality. His words, not mine. What do you call it when someone builds a dimensionally exact copy, if not a replica? Call it what you want; my eyes are open.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The term replica is probably a compliment, it means they achieved what they set out to do. I like to compare it the a very good kit car copy of an AC Cobra, on the surface they look identical but dig deeper and you see the differences and it's much the same here.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

kelt said:


> A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


For me since I am so used to looking at the 116610LV's cluster of words at the bottom of the dial, the cleaner 2 line look to me feels a bit empty. But again this is totally personal preference.

I am sure if I look at the cleaner dial design long enough I'd also gain appreciation of that as well. This is kinda like when you are so used to the sound signature of a Sennheiser can, the moment you put a Grado you are like wuuut....but after a few hours of brain burn in you begin to like it too.

But for now, I really do appreciate Ginault's effort on pulling off this true homage. I really like the presentation of the dial from looking at the pictures. I will know when mine arrives.


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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

Mine made it here, review coming soon.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

SHANE 1000 said:


> See I sincerely do think that right there is one of the biggest problems here, they will answer numerous emails which is GOOD but also so time consuming for them and also probably very frustrating having to answer the same questions again and again from numerous potentials (I'm sure most emails questions are mirrored by many), when they could have just simply answered general questions here on _*their thread after all*_, in literally a few minutes, instead of hours sifting and answering emails, it's not like they have not been here to read the contents of this thread, that way maybe the only emails they get might have been *I WANT ONE how do I PAY? *because they would already know the answers to their questions that they might have had from reading it on this thread to begin with TIME SAVER realistically.


My guess, and this is just a guess, is that something posted on a forum has legal weight, maybe like advertising, whereas a personal communication has a more focused potential impact.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

That's a VALID point that you make I agree and had not even thought of that possibility, could well be the reason, But I can't help think how do all the other micro brands that sell advertise? manage their threads without so much negativity, and I can only surmise it's their ACTIVE involvement in their own thread and other WIS's that could possibly be the key? I don't know.
QUOTE=hanshananigan;37360834]My guess, and this is just a guess, is that something posted on a forum has legal weight, maybe like advertising, whereas a personal communication has a more focused potential impact.[/QUOTE]


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Apexer said:


> View attachment 10459970
> 
> Mine made it here, review coming soon.


When a moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie...

That's "Corundum"

When the world seems to shine like you've had too much wine...

That's "Corundum"

Edit: oh and congratulations I look forward to your review. Just thought this thread needs a song or two


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## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

Marketing and origins aside, this is a very nice looking homage and super tempting. The only thing that would hold me back is the exact details of the movement as I always like to know exactly what is ticking inside. But other than that, it hits everything I like in a dive watch--plenty of water resistance, reasonable size, glossy black dial, applied markers, well executed lume, nice bracelet/clasp, and domed sapphire crystal.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> I think it is quite possible that they do not wish to be dragged into a firestorm on this thread. Pros and cons to both approaches, but given the "tenor" of some of the attacks, they may have chosen a prudent approach. I am not sure what can and can't be disclosed here, but * I was provided information on the origins of the movement parts, the dial, bracelet, and clasp.* They have very clearly identified which movement parts were sourced outside the USA on their website. I am sure they would answer other respectful emails from forum members in that regard. There is no way they will be bullied into a dogfight.


Any reason to think Ginault mentioned the info in confidence?

Are you concerned that you might be legally responsible if you relay the info (without copy/paste, of course)?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> You find more significance in the aesthetic changes than Ginault says it intends. You're entitled to your view; mine is different.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They say it's a 16610 homage. If you call something a "rep" or a "copy" then it needs to appear to be identical. It is not identical to any Rolex, therefore...


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> Any reason to think Ginault mentioned the info in confidence?
> 
> Are you concerned that you might be legally responsible if you relay the info (without copy/paste, of course)?


I asked a couple of questions in an email and they answered those with good clarity.

I'll defer to the Mods to determine what is permissible and what is not. I can say that the company answered those questions to my personal satisfaction.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Look, i dont mean to be glib or cute. I say Ginault intends to be a rep because i read all the marketing materials. He says he want to build a 1:1 version of the Sub with what he says is zero points for design originality. His words, not mine. What do you call it when someone builds a dimensionally exact copy, if not a replica? Call it what you want; my eyes are open.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok, let's try this approach: post a photo of a Rolex that this watch replicates 1:1 or is an exact copy of. Everyone dismisses the jargon used in the marketing spin when it suits their purposes to do so, and then ignores the *ACTUAL *watch and belabours said spiel to support a viewpoint that is not supportable. They call it a homage. Never once did they say it is a replica or a copy, even if they make abundantly clear that it is a strong nod to a Rolex model. Clearly, it combines elements from several Rolexes (which in turn borrowed cues from earlier pieces) and that instantly disqualifies it from being referred to as a "rep".


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Ok, let's try this approach: post a photo of a Rolex that this watch replicates 1:1 or is an exact copy of. Everyone dismisses the jargon used in the marketing spin when it suits their purposes to do so, and then ignores the *ACTUAL *watch and belabours said spiel to support a viewpoint that is not supportable. They call it a homage. Never once did they say it is a replica or a copy, even if they make abundantly clear that it is a strong nod to a Rolex model. Clearly, it combines elements from several Rolexes (which in turn borrowed cues from earlier pieces) and that instantly disqualifies it from being referred to as a "rep".


Homage or not it is more likely to be mistaken for an actual Rolex than just about any other homage. If the goal was to make a 1:1 homage of the Rolex they succeeded albeit some design liberties in the differences that you noted. There are reps that are not this well done in terms of mimicking the original rolex elements.

Why does this watch matter so much to you? Honestly I've never seen someone (individual) so vociferously defending a brand, especially a new and untested brand, the way that you have. You jump in at even the smallest slight that might be given to the brand to come to its defense. I'm not suggesting any hidden motives. I just dont get it. You are a reasonable guy from all the posts I've followed of yours on WUS. You have always been helpful in PMs i have sent you. This watch has brought something else all together out in you.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

valuewatchguy said:


> Why does this watch matter so much to you? Honestly I've never seen someone (individual) so vociferously defending a brand, especially a new and untested brand, the way that you have. You jump in at even the smallest slight that might be given to the brand to come to its defense. I'm not suggesting any hidden motives. I just dont get it. You are a reasonable guy from all the posts I've followed of yours on WUS. You have always been helpful in PMs i have sent you. This watch has brought something else all together out in you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


......obviously not Radar's secretary here, but whilst I'd agree with you that he's defended it maybe a tad too vigorously, you have to admit that there have been a lot unwarranted criticism of the company and the watch. The "other" side are just as guilty IMHO........


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> Homage or not it is more likely to be mistaken for an actual Rolex than just about any other homage. If the goal was to make a 1:1 homage of the Rolex they succeeded albeit some design liberties in the differences that you noted. There are reps that are not this well done in terms of mimicking the original rolex elements.
> 
> Why does this watch matter so much to you? Honestly I've never seen someone (individual) so vociferously defending a brand, especially a new and untested brand, the way that you have. You jump in at even the smallest slight that might be given to the brand to come to its defense. I'm not suggesting any hidden motives. I just dont get it. You are a reasonable guy from all the posts I've followed of yours on WUS. You have always been helpful in PMs i have sent you. This watch has brought something else all together out in you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I think you are reading way too much into this and are completely off base. I enjoy a good debate. And calling this watch a replica is absolutely incorrect. I also don't see you criticising people who argue just as vociferously from the "other side of the discussion". What's up with that apparent incongruity?

BTW - someone (layperson or WIS) mistaking the watch for a Rolex does not make it a rep. That too is indefensible. How about a addressing that point instead of calling my motives or "altered character" into question?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

*If only Ginault had the same passion for his watch as RADAR1 has shown to have for it then all would be fine in this complete thread I think. 
Personally I could only be this passionate if it were my baby, being honest.
So well done RADAR1 for displaying the heart and passion that should have been Mr Ginault's responsibility for his own thread, but you came up tops, so if push comes to shove with the leg work you have done here for Ginault, you should not have paid a single penny for your watch, I sincerely think you've earned it.*



Hornet99 said:


> I'd agree with you that he's defended it maybe a tad too vigorouslyQUOTE]


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Now we need a mockup of this piece without crown guards.


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## kirkryanm (Jan 5, 2016)

Just received mine as well. Honest initial impression; I absolutely love it. I'm going to give it some time on the wrist before getting to the review.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Pretty sure there was willingness to discuss in greater detail until it became so ugly. I would encourage anyone with questions to simply shoot them an email. The address is posted clearly on their website. I am sure a non-confrontational tone will elicit a response, given my experience with them to date. |>


Why don't you ask them if they have any ties to the fake maker? I think that were they to say no, and allow you to post that here, it would end most of the debate about this one.....

On another note, that does look to be quite nearly as well finished as the 16610 which the case replicates, and the dial and hands do seem to be pretty darn nice. Looks like optimism beat the pessimism in the finishing department.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> I think you are reading way too much into this and are completely off base.


Just calling it like I read it but if I'm wrong then I apologize.



Radar1 said:


> I enjoy a good debate.


This thread has gone way past a good debate status



Radar1 said:


> And calling this watch a replica is absolutely incorrect.


Okay not a replica



Radar1 said:


> I also don't see you criticising people who argue just as vociferously from the "other side of the discussion". What's up with that apparent incongruity?


There really hasn't been one individual doing the criticising, except for the person who received the ban from the Moderator. The criticism has come from multiple people rightly or wrongly. But on the other side of the debate you have been the stalwart defender of Ginault from almost the very beginning even before you bought one.

But I would say that you are reading too much into my comments if you thought I was criticising you. I sincerley wanted to know why this was so important to you. And you really didn't answer that question.



Radar1 said:


> How about a addressing that point instead of calling my motives or "altered character" into question?


Again, my comments were not meant as a personal attack. I apologize if that is how you interpreted it, that isn't how I intended it. The only reason I mentioned motives is because you were so insulted previously when someone suggested you were somehow benefiting from your support for Ginault. I only wanted to try and calrify that I didn't think that. Obviously that didn't work either because now you think I am somehow criticising you character.

So to clarify my position
1. Ginault is not a rep.

2. Ginault's intent was to build a homage that excelled not in design originality but in technical expertise. I can understand why some people (not me) would consider this to be the same motives as a replica....the biggest differentiator being that a replica seeks to deceive people and Ginault explicitly did not seek that. But it does not offend me that others might have a different opinion of the terms replica or homage.



> Albeit Ocean-Rover 181070GSLN is a Rolex Submariner 16610 homage.





> Many people would ask "there are so many Submariners homages out there with their own flavor and design, why isn't Ginault's Ocean Rover following suit? The answer to the question is simple. It is actually very hard to make a classic 16610 Submariner homage so close to the original blueprint.





> We know we probably would score a zero on design input for the Ocean-Rover series but we know we are going to hit the bulls eyes when it comes the build qualities of our watches.


3. Radar1 is not doing anything wrong by defending the brand Ginault

4. I think it is odd to present such a vigorous defense of a brand/company that just came on the WIS scene (At least with this level of notoriety) and has not proven itself other than it can produce a nice watch.

5. I think as I have stated previously that it will be great if Ginault succeeds because it will push other microbrands to increase the value they provide to us as buyers. So I am all for it if they travelled to Chile and Alaska to find this rare material that now graces their watches. Heck I hope they took an entire research crew with them. Because if they are able to provide all that for $600 then I am really dissapointed in the next micro that I consider buying with a low beat Seiko NH35 for $475.

6. I think the laws of economics defy some of Ginaults grandiose wording on the effort they put in to build this watch which leads me to believe there has to be more to the story. I am with the group of people that would like to find out more info. I am in no way suggesting that I know all about the costs of building, advertising, servicing, and operating a watch brand, especially one that claims to self perform much of the work themselves. I may never get the information I seek. I will sleep fine tonight knowing that.

7. I am not against Radar1


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And the personal attacks just go on. Beyond belief. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> Just calling it like I read it but if I'm wrong then I apologize.
> 
> This thread has gone way past a good debate status
> 
> ...


All you need to do is leave the personal stuff out of your posts. It's really that simple.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

The rules are pretty clear: 3. Private messages, along with other private correspondence, are not to be posted on the open forum without the permission of their original authors.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Knoc said:


> Now we need a mockup of this piece without crown guards.


It isn't perfect, but might be ok for a rough idea. |>


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Alright guys. Here's the teaser for my review that's coming up. I'm going to have to redo this because, first of all my photography sucks, and secondly I didn't set it up quite right, or run the test for long enough. Anyways, lume.

Here are the four watches side by side. Fortis Dornier GMT, 1969 Omega Speedmaster for pure humor value, Christopher Ward C60 GMT (MKI), Ginault Ocean Rover.









I charged the heck out of the lume on all of them, as evenly as possible. The Fortis got a split second more of a charge due to my clumsiness. The Speedmaster, if you shine the brightest light on it possible can just barely be seen for about two minutes if your eyes adjust quick enough. Keep in mind that I could not see anything at all from the Speedmaster when I took the pics, so the camera picked up more light than my eyes did apparently. The Ginault was very respectable initially. Definitely on par with all the others.









After this, I threw a pillow over them and went to sleep. Got up six hours later (all the time I had, I wanted to wear a watch today!) and took a pic for comparison. This is where I screwed up. The Nikon (my wife's camera) apparently uses a little light to autofocus. So they got splashed with a second or so of light before the pic. I will figure out how to do this better. What I saw with my eyes in this morning very much surprised me. I expected the Fortis to do the best. It did not. The Ginault was markedly better than the others after six hours. It was the only one that I could easily read the time off of.









In the pic the Fortis hands look much better than it did with my eyes. I can only guess this is due to the light on the camera for the second or two. Regardless, even in the pic you can't see the markers. The speedmaster once again somehow got picked up on camera, but again, good luck seeing that with your eyes.

I'll do this again under a (hopefully) more controlled environment with manual focus tonight or tomorrow.

Cheers.


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> And the personal attacks just go on. Beyond belief.


You keep saying that. Those are not personal attacks. We've been trying to show you that your excessive zeal is looking weird, if not bad.

Can't you let it go already? It is not your role to defend Ginault (or is it?) and you've already done all the defending that anyone could. What more could you possibly say in their defense? This thread is going in circles...


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## Don Logan (Mar 17, 2013)

OldeCrow said:


> I think a more accurate statement would be NTH would never be confused with a Rolex ; Ginault is intended to be.


No I think HWA had it right the first time. And with good reason I am pretty sure NTH would never print a screenplay on one of their dials like Ginault thought was necessary.

Kinetic Continuious....



OldeCrow said:


> That Sums up this thread entirely, many people in here are clearly uncomfortable with a watch that can be easily confused with another *but that is exactly the Point of a good homage*, at a second glance it's obviously not what you thought but it's good enough to make you look twice...


If you don't want to take my word for it feel free to click on my posts for evidence of me clearly being rather comfortable with a watch that can be easily confused with another. That being said I have never ever for a quarter second marker on my C60 ever thought that is the _point_ of a good homage. Ever. If anything for me that could be an argument against an homage.

The point of good homage is to use design cues from another work to enhance a new work. Designers(of every type not just in watches)do this for a myriad of reasons. And the best do it in a way that is simultaneously an homage and original. Kiger and NTH are two sterling examples of this that immediately come to mind. MKII, Chris Ward, Dagaz and many more as well.

It is evident upon just looking at a Kiger Milsub or a NTH Amphion that the minds behind them were certainly trying to achieve a lot more creatively then simply trying to confuse people.

In regards to the Ocean Rover Ginault needs to get that "Made in the USA" stamp off the case back. Now. They very clearly state in this thread and on their website that they've sourced materials from other countries. Therefore the "Made in the USA" on the case back is B.S..You can't just put that on something, there are certain objective criteria you must meet in order to do so and Ginault in their own words do not meet that criteria. It's really, really lousy of them to do that and to be blunt REALLY pisses me off.

To echo the sentiments of Yankeeexpress, I am exactly the type of person they are trying to sell one of these too and because of this misguided marketing ploy(I am being kind) I will be steering clear. Way to go Georgie.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Tovarisch said:


> You keep saying that. Those are not personal attacks. We've been trying to show you that your excessive zeal is looking weird, if not bad.
> 
> Can't you let it go already? It is not your role to defend Ginault (or is it?) and you've already done all the defending that anyone could. What more could you possibly say in their defense? This thread is going in circles...


And yet you feel the need to again call my motives into question and perpetuate that circle. I don't answer to you or anyone else so please just talk about the watch - not me.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> Alright guys. Here's the teaser for my review that's coming up. I'm going to have to redo this because, first of all my photography sucks, and secondly I didn't set it up quite right, or run the test for long enough. Anyways, lume.
> 
> Here are the four watches side by side. Fortis Dornier GMT, 1969 Omega Speedmaster for pure humor value, Christopher Ward C60 GMT (MKI), Ginault Ocean Rover.
> 
> ...


Great to see that yours landed. Clearly there are no flies on the Ginault lume. It is rock solid. I guess the wildcard here, since it may not be a more "traditional" lume material, is how long the material will perform into the future. Is there a possibility that it may degrade in some way (obviously to mean in a fairly rapid sense)?


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

I'm willing to send Ginault an email with the questions that still remain in people's minds over this watch and the company as a whole. If people want to tag onto this post and add their questions I will compile them and send them to Ginault also requesting permission to repost their answers. 

So what Questions should we ask? 

1. Origins of the movement and movement components? Has this movement ever been used before and where? 
2. Stability of lume in comparison to Luminova? We have already seen that this is a bright lume. But how does it compare over time to Luminova in terms of degradation? Is there are readily available source of the lume in the event of warranty service or defect? 
3. How accurate is the "Made in the USA" marking on the case back?
4. Are their bracelets an OEM alternative to a genuine Rolex bracelet? Will they sell bracelets alone? 
5. ?
6. ?
7. ?
........

Hopefully getting one email instead of being bombarded with several will help them answer these and othe questions more concisely and thoroughly.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Great to see that yours landed. Clearly there are no flies on the Ginault lume. It is rock solid. I guess the wildcard here, since it may not be a more "traditional" lume material, is how long the material will perform into the future. Is there a possibility that it may degrade in some way (obviously to mean in a fairly rapid sense)?


I'm doing to do my best to ferret that one out. I've been doing some speculative guesswork on what they may have done with the lume... Couldn't test it until I got mine, but now that I have one it'll take a few days to confirm or refute my hunch.... First night seemed to possibly be evidence for my suspicions. We shall see, but I do have some ideas....


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

valuewatchguy said:


> I'm willing to send Ginault an email with the questions that still remain in people's minds over this watch and the company as a whole. If people want to tag onto this post and add their questions I will compile them and send them to Ginault also requesting permission to repost their answers.
> 
> So what Questions should we ask?
> 
> ...


The answers to all of those should be pretty easy.... hopefully you'll get a response!!


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

OK Question (#7): will you consider giving WUS member* Radar1 *one free watch OR reimburse him for the one he bought for all of his efforts coming to your defence on your thread in regards to this watch.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

SHANE 1000 said:


> OK Question (#7): will you consider giving WUS member* Radar1 *one free watch OR reimburse him for the one he bought for all of his efforts coming to your defence on your thread in regards to this watch.


Errrr..... I probably won't ask that question. But it prompted another one in my mind. I wonder if they have given any thought to their long term pricing strategy? The consensus opinion thus far seems to be at under $600 this watch represents a great deal of value. At $1,299 the value proposition is debatable. Is pricing this much closer to the discounted rate sustainable as a business model for them?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SHANE 1000 said:


> OK Question (#7): will you consider giving WUS member* Radar1 *one free watch OR reimburse him for the one he bought for all of his efforts coming to your defence on your thread in regards to this watch.


Uncalled for. Please talk about the watch, Shane.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

BS: Not uncalled for at all, you IMO have earned it, if this was my watch and my thread I kid you not you would have received a free OR heavily discounted watch from me SINCERELY you would have, this is just my opinion here.



Radar1 said:


> Uncalled for. Please talk about the watch, Shane.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

A sharper eyed/more critical reader than I pointed out to me recently that "gold sand lume" is FAR more likely to refer to the colour of the lume rather than the material from which it is made. Thus, "gold sand *coloured* lume". Makes perfect sense, though of course this does not answer the question of what that material is... What we know is that the material was sourced after a search that took in ALL of the Americas, from Alaska to Argentina. Not sure where luminous material is produced here, but suffice it to say that what IS said in the original post is that the material was not sourced in Switzerland (and not a product of RC Tritec) and the strong suggestion is that is was sourced from a company that operates somewhere in the Americas.

For myself, the watch looks amazing and the reviews released so far seem to back this up. I'm in the camp that wishes there was less hyperbolic text (and just less text, period) on the dial and also "Hand Made in America" was not so prominent on the dial. Whether, from a legal standpoint, the watch qualifies for this designation is not for me to decide based on current information. I just think it adds to the "bloated" look of the dial. Of course, less bombastic copy/extreme claims in the original post would have helped as well.

"Rep" in general "on the street" horological paralance is a sanitized way of referring to a fake, thus I can see radar1's issue with it's use in relation to the Ginault. I'm sure he'd argue that the watch is an homage. This raises the question of the watchmaker's alleged connections to "rep" (in the strictly "on the street" sense) watchmaking. I am torn on this one, but feel that the Ginault should be judged for what it is rather than what it might be with Mercedes hands and Rolex branding on it... Putting aside the claims about made in USA and focusing on the micro/boutique watch industry in 2017, factories in China produce cases and parts for mulitple players, how those players then use/brand the parts is up to them, so I suspect strongly the other "legit" micros use parts that are common to "reps" of the watches to which the "legit" micros are paying homage/basing more original designs upon. I'm also torn with respect to what this then might mean if a micro watchmaker were using the same parts to produce watches on both sides of the law... It's a razor thin line between "rep" and homage (imagine someone unscrupulous placing Rolex branding on a MKII Kingston, Nassau, or Key West. FWIW worth I have both a Kingston and a Key West. Very close/faithful homages don't bother me in the slightest).


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

mike120 said:


> The answers to all of those should be pretty easy.... hopefully you'll get a response!!


Adding your own text inside someone else quote without any indication is very bad manners.


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Darwin said:


> A sharper eyed/more critical reader than I pointed out to me recently that "gold sand lume" is FAR more likely to refer to the colour of the lume rather than the material from which it is made. Thus, "gold sand *coloured* lume". Makes perfect sense, though of course this does not answer the question of what that material is... What we know is that the material was sourced after a search that took in ALL of the Americas, from Alaska to Argentina. Not sure where luminous material is produced here, but suffice it to say that what IS said in the original post is that the material was not sourced in Switzerland (and not a product of RC Tritec) and the strong suggestion is that is was sourced from a company that operates somewhere in the Americas.
> 
> For myself, the watch looks amazing and the reviews released so far seem to back this up. I'm in the camp that wishes there was less hyperbolic text (and just less text, period) on the dial and also "Hand Made in America" was not so prominent on the dial. Whether, from a legal standpoint, the watch qualifies for this designation is not for me to decide based on current information. I just think it adds to the "bloated" look of the dial. Of course, less bombastic copy/extreme claims in the original post would have helped as well.
> 
> "Rep" in general "on the street" horological paralance is a sanitized way of referring to a fake, thus I can see radar1's issue with it's use in relation to the Ginault. I'm sure he'd argue that the watch is an homage. This raises the question of the watchmaker's alleged connections to "rep" (in the strictly "on the street" sense) watchmaking. I am torn on this one, but feel that the Ginault should be judged for what it is rather than what it might be with Mercedes hands and Rolex branding on it... Putting aside the claims about made in USA and focusing on the micro/boutique watch industry in 2017, factories in China produce cases and parts for mulitple players, how those players then use/brand the parts is up to them, so I suspect strongly the other "legit" micros use parts that are common to "reps" of the watches to which the "legit" micros are paying homage/basing more original designs upon. I'm also torn with respect to what this then might mean if a micro watchmaker were using the same parts to produce watches on both sides of the law... It's a razor thin line between "rep" and homage (imagine someone unscrupulous placing Rolex branding on a MKII Kingston, Nassau, or Key West. FWIW worth I have both a Kingston and a Key West. Very close/faithful homages don't bother me in the slightest).


Wait... Did some people actually think they were claiming it was real gold?...


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> The answers to all of those should be pretty easy.... hopefully you'll get a response!!


I'm afraid the chance of getting an answer is approximately zero. 
Would love e to see what they have to say though


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Uncalled for. Please talk about the watch, Shane.


I know you've been catching hell from all sides for days, but I thought that was mostly harmless.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

Seppia said:


> I'm afraid the chance of getting an answer is approximately zero.
> Would love e to see what they have to say though


That's what I'm afraid of but all the detractors have multiple reservations and all the proponents are saying the watch is great, dont read too much into the marketing lingo, and just ask Ginault nicely.......so I'm going to ask.

I am on the fence on this watch. I need more info before i would buy it. All the bickering here isn't getting answers. And unfortunately all the glowing reviews arent changing the desire for answers. HWA's review was awfully good and puts alot of points in favor of Ginault.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

I was actually being sincere with what I wrote to, I truly believe he has earned at least something FREE? DISCOUNTED heavily? whatever I know if it was me in a fight and I had someone I don't know with so much passion to protect I would want that person with me in my corner for sure, and I would also reward for that kind of loyalty, but that's just me and my old school mentality.



aegir said:


> I know you've been catching hell from all sides for days, but I thought that was mostly harmless.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

aegir said:


> Wait... Did some people actually think they were claiming it was real gold?...


Dunno, I just know that there was a lot of angst about the perceived claim that the material was actually gold coloured sand!

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I personally think the watch is good up to possibly around $900. I fully understand that the value proposition can be altered based on questions revolving around the movement. The company has stated their piece about the origins of most of the parts for the movement (machined in the USA), identified the components that were not (4 in total?), and identified assembly as being in the States. That's what we have to work with until such time as they step back into the debate, or someone with a lot of expertise does a teardown. Another question I would be interested in would be how many they plan on building/selling.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

aegir said:


> I know you've been catching hell from all sides for days, but I thought that was mostly harmless.


I think Shane and I have worked it out. I didn't get a watch for free and have no interest in that even in the highly unlikely event that it was offered. I don't even want the vague perception of it hung out there. For me, the company has been very good to deal with so far and I am very pleased with the actual watch. I am a stubborn SOB and very unlikely to back down from much. That's the way it is and I will not apologise for it in any way. Folks were told numerous times to talk about the watch, and that's what should be done.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

kelt said:


> Adding your own text inside someone else quote without any indication is very bad manners.


My additions are both bolded and in red?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Darwin said:


> Dunno, I just know that there was a lot of angst about the perceived claim that the material was actually gold coloured sand!
> 
> Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


This is a clear instance when the semantics and marketing have confused the issue. Is it a luminescent form of sand, or gold-coloured sand mixed with an existing lume material? It certainly looks like C3 when charged, but not identified as such in any way. It is interesting to me that they can nail the vintage colouration, incorporate the glint of the grains in use, and still have performance this admirable.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

hwa said:


> there is such a thing as photoluminescent sand. You can look it up (and buy it!)


Red herring.  If the lume is U.S. based it's Noctilumina. If it's not it's a few degrees from Nemoto (TriTec's partner and IP source for SL and LumiBrite).









This is one area there are only 2 first-rate suppliers, everything else is middleman branding. Someone just liked "gold sand."


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## calwatchguy (Jun 23, 2015)

kelt said:


> A rendering of what a Ginault Ocean Rover two liner could look:


So much nicer looking in my opinion. Agreed with Radar that I would move the text down a bit.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

.


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

valuewatchguy said:


> I'm willing to send Ginault an email with the questions that still remain in people's minds over this watch and the company as a whole. If people want to tag onto this post and add their questions I will compile them and send them to Ginault also requesting permission to repost their answers.
> 
> So what Questions should we ask?
> 
> ...


Can you ask about their development of a special alloy, GC31 a copper that is almost as strong as steel? Did they develop this themselves or was it subcontracted out? Show me some evidence to back up the claim; stress-strain curves, hardness testing, wear characteristics, etc.


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## MIL5419 (Jan 26, 2016)

I was at a party once, a few years ago. I just so happened to be wearing my Orient CER00007B Sub ‘homage’ (which I'm sure doesn't even come close to the quality of this watch). Anyway, I got talking to someone and she glanced quickly at my wrist, where she briefly saw my watch. ‘Ah, you wear a Submariner’ she said, ‘you have good taste’.

Not thinking…I said ‘Thank you’ a bit surprised, ‘do you like watches?’

‘Yes’, she replied, ‘I actually work for Rolex UK’…

Now, yes, in retrospect I should have been honest and not taken the initial complement and said ‘oh this?, No, this is just a watch designed to pay homage to the history and spirit of the Rolex Submariner, a watch I admire a lot, but for a fraction of the cost of entrance into that particular club yada yada’ but I hadn’t, and now it was too late.

I recall, in a very embarrassing spew of words, I managed to steer the conversation away from watches and not very surprisingly, our conversation ended quickly!

It was a very awkward moment. I still cringe thinking about it.

I sold the watch the very next day.


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## MIL5419 (Jan 26, 2016)

I was at a party once, a few years ago. I just so happened to be wearing my Orient CER00007B Sub ‘homage’ (which I'm sure doesn't even come close to the quality of this watch). Anyway, I got talking to someone and she glanced quickly at my wrist, where she briefly saw my watch. ‘Ah, you wear a Submariner’ she said, ‘you have good taste’.

Not thinking…I said ‘Thank you’ a bit surprised, ‘do you like watches?’

‘Yes’, she replied, ‘I actually work for Rolex UK’…

Now, yes, in retrospect I should have been honest and not taken the initial complement and said ‘oh this?, No, this is just a watch designed to pay homage to the history and spirit of the Rolex Submariner, a watch I admire a lot, but for a fraction of the cost of entrance into that particular club yada yada’ but I hadn’t, and now it was too late.

I recall, in a very embarrassing spew of words, I managed to steer the conversation away from watches and not very surprisingly, our conversation ended quickly!

It was a very awkward moment. I still cringe thinking about it.

I sold the watch the very next day.


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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

MIL5419 said:


> I recall, in a very embarrassing spew of words, I managed to steer the conversation away from watches and not very surprisingly, our conversation ended quickly!
> 
> It was a very awkward moment. I still cringe thinking about it.
> 
> I sold the watch the very next day.


That was probably fortunate because if you hit it off with her you might have had this conversation later.










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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

valuewatchguy said:


> I'm willing to send Ginault an email with the questions that still remain in people's minds over this watch and the company as a whole. If people want to tag onto this post and add their questions I will compile them and send them to Ginault also requesting permission to repost their answers.
> 
> So what Questions should we ask?
> 
> ...


It seems some of the questions have already been asked and answered

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=37407090

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## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

I recall someone mentioning a picture of a date version of the Ocean Rover was leaked. Anyone have any more info on this? I sent Ginault an email but no response yet.


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## T-hunter (Dec 26, 2009)

RTea said:


> I recall someone mentioning a picture of a date version of the Ocean Rover was leaked. Anyone have any more info on this? I sent Ginault an email but no response yet.


Wasn't leaked, it's on the 1st. post of this thread... Ginault's original post.


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## SDGenius (May 30, 2014)

I'd love to review one for my channel, hopefully they respond to my PM


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

I saw HWA posted additional info from Ginault regarding component sourcing. Any other info floating around on other review threads I missed?

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## valuewatchguy (Jun 16, 2012)

valuewatchguy said:


> It seems some of the questions have already been asked and answered
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=37407090
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


I thought about it overnight and I change my mind.... I will not be sending an email with questions to Ginault. It's time for me to slowly back away from the Ginault discussion.

Someone with more passion for the brand or for investigative reporting should take this torch and run with it.

Cheers!

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

My review is up here. Grab a fresh drink, I'm longwinded.


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

Would be interesting to review this watch against my newly received borealis bull shark.










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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

iceman767 said:


> Would be interesting to review this watch against my newly received borealis bull shark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bullshark looks good! Have you done a review yet?


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

Not yet 

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## phlabrooy (Dec 25, 2011)

iceman767 said:


> Would be interesting to review this watch against my newly received borealis bull shark.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking too !

Regards,


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

Ginault Ocean Rover Review - Part II (The Competition)


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## jamsie (Mar 14, 2010)

@Radar1 very interested in your review and always value Brice's opinion. I just reached out to John (if you have a better email address other than the [email protected] please send me a PM) and recently I had spoken with Monta watches as I see these two offerings appear to be very well made. I agree with Brice, that Steinhart leaves a lot to be desired. I for one love that that they utilized the Gridlock style bracelet, the ability to adjust the bracelet for a perfect fit anywhere and at any time is worth its weight in gold and one of my favorite features of the Rolex Ceramic Sub.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jamsie said:


> @Radar1 very interested in your review and always value Brice's opinion. I just reached out to John (if you have a better email address other than the [email protected] please send me a PM) and recently I had spoken with Monta watches as I see these two offerings appear to be very well made. I agree with Brice, that Steinhart leaves a lot to be desired. I for one love that that they utilized the Gridlock style bracelet, the ability to adjust the bracelet for a perfect fit anywhere and at any time is worth its weight in gold and one of my favorite features of the Rolex Ceramic Sub.


My review is here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-ocean-rover-review-pictorial-3913578.html

I have been working with the same email address that you have in your post. The clasp design is definitely brilliant. Serious kudos to Rolex for that. The Ginault is on a different level than the standard Steinhart offerings in terms of build quality. |>


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

I have received mine a few days ago. I have been wearing it since and comparing the workmanship of this watch vs my 116610LV. I will find time to take photos this weekend. I hope the weather stays sunny for good light. For now I'd say the OR is really amazing.


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## gdb1960 (Dec 23, 2013)

valuewatchguy said:


> I thought about it overnight and I change my mind.... I will not be sending an email with questions to Ginault. It's time for me to slowly back away from the Ginault discussion.
> 
> Someone with more passion for the brand or for investigative reporting should take this torch and run with it.
> 
> ...


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

I have done a few tests and the lume brightness is comparable to the Rolex Chromalite. I will post pictures soon


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## serge70 (Nov 16, 2010)

I love this gargantuan discussion !!

What was it about again ?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

serge70 said:


> I love this gargantuan discussion !!
> 
> What was it about again ?


This... errr, I think.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> This... errr, I think.
> 
> View attachment 10517362


This thing looks really nice! Might end up getting one 🤔

Sent from my SM-T710 using Tapatalk


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## SDGenius (May 30, 2014)




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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

SDGenius said:


> View attachment 10523258


So? What do you think? Video review pending?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> So? What do you think? Video review pending?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I am looking forward to the video review as well.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

My review of the Ginault Ocean-Rover, which I bought with the 55% discount:

This thing hugely exceeded my expectations. The whole watch exudes quality.

The stand out feature, for me, is the crystal. It appears to have no AR coating, yet I still only see reflections from one surface; this seems to be due to the geometry of the crystal. It's superbly clear and non-distorting at all angles. 

Underneath is the lovely glossy dial with the applied indices. The tan lume glows green when fully activated, and is similar in brightness to the C3 on my other watches (none of which, however, are lume superstars). It lasts through the night.

The bezel is crisp and turns with moderate pressure. Clicks are precise. No play. It feels like a high-quality mechanism.

The bezel insert is aluminum. I wish Ginault had used ceramic, as the painted silver indices seem more pedestrian than the rest of the watch. As others have pointed out, there are aftermarket ceramic inserts available for the Rolex 16610 that should fit the Ginault. I also wish Ginault had left off the minute markers from 1 to 14, like the original Tudor sub (better visual symmetry). But here I am really nitpicking, and merely expressing a personal preference.

The bracelet is terrific. Easy to resize with the included screwdriver. The adjustable clasp works perfectly and is a most welcome feature for me. (But memo to Ginault: there was no owner's manual, and I had to go watch a youtube video on the Rolex glidelock to figure out how it worked.)

After 2.5 days on wrist, mine is running at +2s total. Whatever Ginault does in the build and adjustment of their movements, the results on my sample are excellent.

Overall, I'm quite happy with Ginault's design choices. The British military was correct to request sword hands, IMO. The tan lume, the red second hand, the novella worth of text: they all work for me when I have the watch on wrist. YMMV.

So I'm a very happy camper at this point. If the movement's performance holds up, I will be absolutely thrilled. A bunch of watches in my sig are about to see a lot less wrist time.

If I somehow lost this watch tomorrow, and I had to pay MSRP to get a replacement, I would. 

There are lots of excellent pics on this and other threads already, but here are a couple of quick iPhone wrist shots:


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

^ right on for the pics and thoughts.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Another happy camper. Great to see.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

Nice input Avo. I received mine in the mail today. It's just as striking in person as it is in the posted pictures I've been admiring for the last week or so. Hope I have time tonight to officially take it out to play!


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## SDGenius (May 30, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> So? What do you think? Video review pending?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Correct, video review coming soon. Will be a 3 or 4 parter, a lot of thoughts on this guy


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

SDGenius said:


> Correct, video review coming soon. Will be a 3 or 4 parter, a lot of thoughts on this guy


Lookin forward to it


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## Hornet99 (Jun 27, 2015)

Am I imagining it, but it appears that there are quite a few of these out there now. Did everyone buy it at a discount I wonder......?


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Hornet99 said:


> Am I imagining it, but it appears that there are quite a few of these out there now. Did everyone buy it at a discount I wonder......?


I believe so... i tried the discount code yesterday and it was still working! Keep telling myself I don't want another sub homage!

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Hornet99 said:


> Am I imagining it, but it appears that there are quite a few of these out there now. Did everyone buy it at a discount I wonder......?


I am sure they did. No way, that a no name brand is worth $1k. It belongs at the steinhart ocean 1 price level. That is around $500


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Stellite said:


> I am sure they did. No way, that a no name brand is worth $1k. It belongs at the steinhart ocean 1 price level. That is around $500


Steinhart ocean one is closer too 400, the list price of this watch is in ridiculous homage price territory same as mkii.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Fwiw, based on posts, i count 10 in the wild as of @christoO

EDIT: Make that 12. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Stellite said:


> I am sure they did. No way, that a no name brand is worth $1k. It belongs at the steinhart ocean 1 price level. That is around $500


The Ginault is a significantly nicer watch than the Steinhart O1 series. I have owned two of latter and there is no comparison in terms of build quality. Have you handled both? Just curious.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> The Ginault is a significantly nicer watch than the Steinhart O1 series. I have owned two of latter and there is no comparison in terms of build quality. *Have you handled both? Just curious.*


[Bold added by me]

I think Stellite would have mentioned if he were one of the very few who has handled this Ginault.

If the purpose of that statement/ question is to condemn the practice of commenting on watches before handling them, it is a fair point that I feel would come across as less personal and antagonistic if it was just stated directly.

Let's not get this thread on Ginault closed, too.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> [Bold added by me]
> 
> I think Stellite would have mentioned if he were one of the very few who has handled this Ginault.
> 
> ...


I have no clue if he has handled one or not. That's why I asked. It is important to have done so to state unequivocally how two watches may compare (either in terms of quality or value/price point). Personally, I have only directly compared the Ginault to the sub homages I have owned. I have been very careful not to draw any conclusions about the ones I have not (such as MK II, Davosa, etc.).


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

I've got the MKII Nassau and OWC 9411.
its up there with quality and built, just one or two items to take note of that aren't on par.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> The Ginault is a significantly nicer watch than the Steinhart O1 series. I have owned two of latter and there is no comparison in terms of build quality. Have you handled both? Just curious.


No, I have not had the opportunity to handle one yet. I do stand by my statement, however, that a no name brand would really have to explain all the questions being asked to even come close to the $1k price tag. Like, showing us the movement factory, the case factory, the bracelet factory. With the current smoke and mirrors I don't see it being a $1k watch and certainly $500 is where it belongs.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Stellite said:


> No, I have not had the opportunity to handle one yet. I do stand by my statement, however, that a no name brand would really have to explain all the questions being asked to even come close to the $1k price tag. Like, showing us the movement factory, the case factory, the bracelet factory. With the current smoke and mirrors I don't see it being a $1k watch and certainly $500 is where it belongs.


I agree that the watch should be much less than the current MSRP, but I disagree with your argument, let's for example take someone like Damasko (for the sake of argument) or any other manufacturer in the 1K range, when they started we didn't have any clue about their quality, or where the cases were produced or machined, and for sure the first few owners many years ago took a risk to buy one, then with the word of mouth spreading, they built their reputation and we ended up with a 1k watch.
We can argue this for days anyways, it is just a matter of personal opinion.
Another funny example will be Chris Word and his MSRP and discounts and so on! 
For now we have an amazing watch for a reasonable price (with the discount of course till it last 😁)

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Stellite said:


> No, I have not had the opportunity to handle one yet. I do stand by my statement, however, that a no name brand would really have to explain all the questions being asked to even come close to the $1k price tag. Like, showing us the movement factory, the case factory, the bracelet factory. With the current smoke and mirrors I don't see it being a $1k watch and certainly $500 is where it belongs.


So you can identify every factory where all the components for every $1k watch - brand name or otherwise - are made? That's remarkable. There is no doubt the marketing for this one was out of whack, but in hand it compares very favourably with other micros costing much more than $500. See the post above (and plenty of others) for real life info on how it compares to other micros such as MK II and OWC. That's the bottom line and you really should have firsthand experience of the watch to make that determination.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

the_watchier said:


> I agree that the watch should be much less than the current MSRP, but I disagree with your argument, let's for example take someone like Damasko (for the sake of argument) or any other manufacturer in the 1K range, when they started we didn't have any clue about their quality, or where the cases were produced or machined, and for sure the first few owners many years ago took a risk to buy one, then with the word of mouth spreading, they built their reputation and we ended up with a 1k watch.
> We can argue this for days anyways, it is just a matter of personal opinion.
> Another funny example will be Chris Word and his MSRP and discounts and so on!
> For now we have an amazing watch for a reasonable price (with the discount of course till it last )
> ...


Bingo.


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

I would be courteous to know who here has purchased this watch at full price and get their take on it. Saying it's a $1000 -$1300 watch and spending that amount to purchase one are two different things to me.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

jlow28 said:


> I would be courteous to know who here has purchased this watch at full price and get their take on it. Saying it's a $1000 -$1300 watch and spending that amount to purchase one are two different things to me.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


That's a very good point! I don't think anyone did bite that bullet....

instagram @ the_watchier


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

the_watchier said:


> I agree that the watch should be much less than the current MSRP, but I disagree with your argument, let's for example take someone like Damasko (for the sake of argument) or any other manufacturer in the 1K range, when they started we didn't have any clue about their quality, or where the cases were produced or machined, and for sure the first few owners many years ago took a risk to buy one, then with the word of mouth spreading, they built their reputation and we ended up with a 1k watch.
> We can argue this for days anyways, it is just a matter of personal opinion.
> Another funny example will be Chris Word and his MSRP and discounts and so on!
> For now we have an amazing watch for a reasonable price (with the discount of course till it last )
> ...


Hmmmmm................ Just for the sake of argument, we do know about Damasko. And Stowa. And a lot of others. I know that some would be ok blowing a grand on a watch of dubious provenance. I also know that some wouldn't be. At that point you're right, that it's personal opinion.

The facts though aren't opinion. Other businesses let people in to see the process. The problem, for Ginault at least, is that if what they're claiming is true, and what some believe is false, proving it is as easy as letting someone take a tour with a camera.

I don't even like subs, but if what they're claiming about the watch' provenance is true ill buy one at full price to support them. But they need to answer the REALLY easy to answer questions.

A Visit to Damasko - worn&wound


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## OCDRob (Apr 18, 2016)

I received my Ginault Ocean Rover yesterday afternoon. To start out I would like say I really like this watch. My expectations were set high by all the positive reviews and the Ginault delivered. Like the other reviewers I also took advantage of the 55% discount for agreeing to review the watch.

After ordering the watch I received notification of the order and a tracking number within a couple of hours of the order being placed. The watch arrived on the second full business from when the order was placed. Ginault was very prompt in filling the order and getting it shipped. The box was packaged well and the contents arrived intact.

Now about the watch. My first impression after removing all the stickers and placing it on my wrist was wow!!! The dial for this price point is really amazing. The gloss dial, unique colored lume and red seconds hand for a splash of color just look awesome through the beautiful domed crystal. The bezel works flawlessly with no play. The winding action is very smooth as is setting the time. I was also very surprised how easy the crown screwed back down. The brushed finish on the top of lugs was also done very well but the polished sides of the case could have been a little better. The polished sides of the case has some very faint horizontal scratches that are both sides. They can only be seen in direct light but they are there. The bracelet and clasp are unbelievably good, the glide adjustable clasp works flawlessly and opens and closes with a nice positive snap. The polished sides of the clasp are finished perfectly. The bracelet is also super comfortable and is finished very nicely. I cannot comment on removing a link to adjust because the watch fit right out of the box. After 24hrs the watch is running -2 seconds, I certainly cant complain about that. Overall I am very very pleased with my Ginault, the one minor flaw is very easily remedied. I will update this post with a few pics in a day or two. Thanks for reading.

Rob


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

mike120 said:


> Hmmmmm................ Just for the sake of argument, we do know about Damasko. And Stowa. And a lot of others.
> 
> A Visit to Damasko - worn&wound


Very informative, haven't seen this before... thanks for sharing.

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

jlow28 said:


> I would be courteous to know who here has purchased this watch at full price and get their take on it. Saying it's a $1000 -$1300 watch and spending that amount to purchase one are two different things to me.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


I agree with this 100%. I think it is ok up to perhaps the $800 mark or so. That's obviously a purely subjective opinion, but is based on having owned dozens of dive watches at various different price levels. People will pay what they feel it is worth to them, as everyone has a different opinion on valuation. I have seen some reviews that suggested that the build quality justifies the MSRP. I have owned several pieces in the $500 range and this one is clearly nicer than those and absolutely on par with others costing closer to $1000.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> Hmmmmm................ Just for the sake of argument, we do know about Damasko. And Stowa. And a lot of others. I know that some would be ok blowing a grand on a watch of dubious provenance. I also know that some wouldn't be. At that point you're right, that it's personal opinion.
> 
> The facts though aren't opinion. Other businesses let people in to see the process. The problem, for Ginault at least, is that if what they're claiming is true, and what some believe is false, proving it is as easy as letting someone take a tour with a camera.
> 
> ...


I think that the real problem is that some have chosen to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak. I think it is clear that some of the claims were overblown and some were inaccurate. But that does not mean that it is all smoke and mirrors. What has become quite clear is that it is a very well built piece. Not many complaints from the folks who have actually handled them in person, and the deficiencies I have seen noted (my own included) have been fairly minor.


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## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

I might come through for you on this with a 5513 vs OR review soon.


Radar1 said:


> Yikes, pressure cooker situation! I'll do my best. |>
> 
> Wish I had a couple of my previous Sub homages to directly compare, but my memory of them is still mostly intact and I have lots of legacy photos as well. If the Ginault pics hold true to form, I don't think any of the now departed pieces would hold a candle to the Ocean-Rover anyway.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

longstride said:


> I might come through for you on this with a 5513 vs OR review soon.


That would be sweet. Looking forward to your thoughts - especially against the Rolex. |>


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Price is both simple and complex, we pay a premium for a Rolex why? Creativity, materials, movement and provenance. Watch companies now have a harder time innovating. Homage watches exist to fill the void, I want a blnr but 8k is a lot of coin I can grab a steinhart for 400. When you take creativity and innovation out and you use common affordable materials, I don't see how a homage company can charge 1300,let alone 1600 like a mkii we pay a premium for things that are worth it, a homage well over a grand in my opinion is not worth it, that said this is clearly a well made watch, but if I'm spending over a grand I want original ideas and designs. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Bingo, so to speak. What makes it worth over a grand is the claim of a super secret jingoistic 'murican made movement. People pay a premium for that, thus the ad copy. Mike120 has it precisely right. Damasko will show you. Weiss will show you. RGM will show you. Ginlex? Nah. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I think we heard you the 75th time.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> I think we heard you the 75th time.


That may be. But I was curious, so I counted, and it seems you've got over 200 posts in this one thread, out of under 750 total. You pretty sure you're on the right side of this argument? EDIT: My post count in this thread is right about 31...


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> So you can identify every factory where all the components for every $1k watch - brand name or otherwise - are made? That's remarkable. There is no doubt the marketing for this one was out of whack, but in hand it compares very favourably with other micros costing much more than $500. See the post above (and plenty of others) for real life info on how it compares to other micros such as MK II and OWC. That's the bottom line and you really should have firsthand experience of the watch to make that determination.


All I know is that if they claim US made movement and case that is part of their selling point and price and honestly, even though reviews have been good, I take them with a grain of salt, especially considering they could be one of many fly by nighters. So yes, I expect some transparency from them. To me, they are worth their discounted price and nothing more until they backup their claims. Don't make a claim unless you can back it up.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> That may be. But I was curious, so I counted, and it seems you've got over 200 posts in this one thread, out of under 750 total. You pretty sure you're on the right side of this argument? EDIT: My post count in this thread is right about 31...


You took the time to count posts?? My goodness. Imagine if that dogged diligence was directed at more positive pursuits. I may well post another 200 times, so you better grab yourself some refreshments and pull up a recliner. While questions remain about some of Ginault's claims, none whatsoever do over the quality of the watch. That must be _really_ galling for some people. The continued gnashing of teeth is almost deafening. Lol.

It bears repeating: if you so clearly despise the watch, the company that makes it, and the people who have come to the consensus that it is very nicely built, then why not simply entertain yourself in some more meaningful, positive way? Isn't it time to move on to something healthier? Yoga? Meditation?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Stellite said:


> All I know is that if they claim US made movement and case that is part of their selling point and price and honestly, even though reviews have been good, I take them with a grain of salt, especially considering they could be one of many fly by nighters. So yes, I expect some transparency from them. To me, they are worth their discounted price and nothing more until they backup their claims. Don't make a claim unless you can back it up.


So clarify what they can do to appease. Provide the names and addresses of the companies that fabricated the parts that were made in the USA? They stated clearly on their website (and possibly in their OP) that four key components of the movement were sourced external to the USA. The dial likely was as well. To that I would probably add the clasp - unsure about bracelet. It is now clear that "Made in the USA" should not have been used on the caseback and they really should address that in some way. My personal opinion is that at least some of the contentious aspect of all this is the direct result of a witch hunt on the part of a handful of surly forum members. For the record, any micro could become a "fly by night". Many have gone under despite having good intentions. I think if this company cleans up their marketing approach and continues to build watches of this quality, they may have a shot to succeed. What the cynics don't seem to realise is that they themselves have contributed mightily to raising the company's profile. Now that is irony of epic proportions.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

EDIT: I've decided my original post here was not constructive so I'm voluntarily deleting it.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

I think some folks here need to figure out how to use our ignore function. We've closed the other Ginault threads because they degenerated into food fights. If this thread continues down the same path we'll be giving the antagonists time outs.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> So clarify what they can do to appease. Provide the names and addresses of the companies that fabricated the parts that were made in the USA? They stated clearly on their website (and possibly in their OP) that four key components of the movement were sourced external to the USA. The dial likely was as well. To that I would probably add the clasp - unsure about bracelet. It is now clear that "Made in the USA" should not have been used on the caseback and they really should address that in some way. My personal opinion is that at least some of the contentious aspect of all this is the direct result of a witch hunt on the part of a handful of surly forum members. For the record, any micro could become a "fly by night". Many have gone under despite having good intentions. I think if this company cleans up their marketing approach and continues to build watches of this quality, they may have a shot to succeed. What the cynics don't seem to realise is that they themselves have contributed mightily to raising the company's profile. Now that is irony of epic proportions.


Well, here is my supposition. I am almost 100% sure that the bracelet is made outside the US and most likely China. I have no issue with that, heck, I remember when Omega links were being shipped from china, meaning that at the time they were making parts for omega bracelets there. I don't even mind if Ginault said that they have the cases made in a machine shop in xxxxx and the movements are assembled and made by so and so. But they made specific claims. Tell me the truth. The watch seems to be a good quality product and I have no issue with it. Why is it so hard for them to let us know where the cases are machined and where the movements are made? If they clear that up, I am good with it. If those two items are indeed made in the USA, then it explains the cost. If they are not made here and the movement is a sellita sw200 that they stuff in the case, then as I said earlier, the sale price is more apropo. I am more than happy to see any american company succeed. I have three submariners, I have owned 2 steinharts, 2 Cwards and a host of invicta 8926's. I obviously like the sub look. I do not mind having another one.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Stellite said:


> Well, here is my supposition. I am almost 100% sure that the bracelet is made outside the US and most likely China. I have no issue with that, heck, I remember when Omega links were being shipped from china, meaning that at the time they were making parts for omega bracelets there. I don't even mind if Ginault said that they have the cases made in a machine shop in xxxxx and the movements are assembled and made by so and so. But they made specific claims. Tell me the truth. The watch seems to be a good quality product and I have no issue with it. Why is it so hard for them to let us know where the cases are machined and where the movements are made? If they clear that up, I am good with it. If those two items are indeed made in the USA, then it explains the cost. If they are not made here and the movement is a sellita sw200 that they stuff in the case, then as I said earlier, the sale price is more apropo. I am more than happy to see any american company succeed. I have three submariners, I have owned 2 steinharts, 2 Cwards and a host of invicta 8926's. I obviously like the sub look. I do not mind having another one.


I don't disagree with this at all - though have paid significantly more than $500 on three occasions for watches with the SW200 (Oris Aquis Date, Boschett Reef Ranger, and Limes Endurance). All excellent watches and worth the price of admission. Invicta offers a decent diver with the Selitta at around $300 - so there is a spectrum here based on the quality of the other components (not an insignificant factor in pricing). Ginault has stated that the movement, excepting the parts mentioned, was made in the USA - same for the cases. It would seem that they can only offer up the specifics of the relevant US companies involved as further proof. They have chosen not do that on a public forum - for better or worse. If a legal challenge over their choice of wording ensues, that is a different matter. Not sure what further can be said that doesn't merely belabour the point to incredible excess. At the end of the day, people simply have to decide if the high quality point is worth some of the uncertainty, and call it a day. If it is not something that they can let go of, then by all means pursue other avenues of recourse. I think we can all agree that flogging the proverbial dead horse day in and day out doesn't solve anything.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The demand that Ginault name their outside suppliers seems unreasonable to me. AFAIK, no watch company names their outside suppliers. Weiss doesn't. docvail doesn't. Swatch doesn't.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The insistence that Ginault should be taken at its word is likewise maddening, but more to the point, utterly clearly plainly obviously contrary to FTC policy. Ive not read here or elsewhere any great hue and cry for Ginault to name suppliers; ive said and read folks asking Ginault to substantiate is claims, which under the law it is required to do when it makes the claim. You don't have to take my word for it, you can look it up. 

I have as much right to state/repeat this view as anyone else around here, and if some will continue to sweep this issue under the rug and continually ask Mrs Lincoln how she enjoyed the play, ill keep pointing to the body next to her. I own one of these watches, and should be permitted to press the seller, a sponsor here, for answers. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Not sure what further can be said that doesn't merely belabour the point to incredible excess. At the end of the day, people simply have to decide if the high quality point is worth some of the uncertainty, and call it a day. If it is not something that they can let go of, then by all means pursue other avenues of recourse. I think we can all agree that flogging the proverbial dead horse day in and day out doesn't solve anything.


Agreed for the most part. You keep calling it a choice between a high quality product vs "uncertainty," though, while others keep saying it is matter of trust and integrity.

Here's my bottom line:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3-GYGsba...HYUEenQe7wCLcB/s1600/extraordinary+claims.jpg


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Avo said:


> The demand that Ginault name their outside suppliers seems unreasonable to me. AFAIK, no watch company names their outside suppliers. Weiss doesn't. docvail doesn't. Swatch doesn't.


Agreed. That's why I ask what else they can offer that will satisfy the people that demand specifics. It would not surprise me in the least if someone (possibly a small group) from this forum pursues the legalities of the matter.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Avo said:


> The demand that Ginault name their outside suppliers seems unreasonable to me. AFAIK, no watch company names their outside suppliers. Weiss doesn't. docvail doesn't. Swatch doesn't.


What american watch company are you talking about? We are talking about a relatively non existent watch making industry in the USA and you are talking about a company using it to advertise their watch with being made in the USA. Of course watch companies in Japan, China or Switzerland aren't naming their suppliers, as those countries have booming watch industries. Let me know where the watch making district is in the USA. Not sure why you can't see that. It isn't like people haven't questioned watch companies in the past.


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## SHANE 1000 (Mar 28, 2006)

*Nothing to do with this thread totally unrelated! but I saw this and it made me think*:think:* if this would be considered American milk from a Dutch cow owned by a Canadian fed foreign feed milked in Wisconsin*:think:* .
*


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> Agreed for the most part. You keep calling it a choice between a high quality product vs "uncertainty," though, while others keep saying it is matter of trust and integrity.
> 
> Here's my bottom line:
> 
> https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3-GYGsba...HYUEenQe7wCLcB/s1600/extraordinary+claims.jpg


The distinction for me is that they didn't promise a high-quality watch and deliver a clunker with dubious, sub-par components. As for trust and integrity, there may never be sufficient proof that they acted maliciously as opposed to in ignorance/naivety. That's a very key point. Doesn't mean some things shouldn't be addressed to bring the matter in line with the regulatory requirements, but the incredibly dogmatic witch hunt approach is not sensible or even rational. What remains are some questions over the true origins of some of the parts. That becomes a legal matter that will NOT be solved on WUS, so why beat it to death so harshly? To me that is simply warped, obsessive thinking. It is clear to all of us that some of their marketing needs revision. I don't know much about the Weiss or Shinola situations, but did they choose to come on a public forum and lay everything on the table, or were things simply handled in some way from the legal angle and perhaps then disclosed more broadly? We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes here in terms of legal challenges, and for certain they will have been advised to stand down if anything has been pushed (or even thought to be pending) in that regard. IMO, the folks who simply refuse to chill and take a wait and see approach are pushing a different agenda altogether.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

IMO the only relevant uncertainty is their service. :think:

*A major difference between a $550 watch and a $1,300 watch is what happens when it breaks under warranty. *

My Ginault is broken. They've responded quickly with a paid label to a US address: so far so good. Early customers to a new company should expect a discount until they can see what might happen if the watch breaks. It is reasonable not to pay MSRP at this time.

With respect to others' concerns, IMO it's a stretch to assume bad faith on Ginault's part. FTC practice is to work with companies after a complaint. Ginault has said they intend to comply. It's not expected that a company stop sales when questions are raised. So while important to get fixed, the Made in USA claim is not something we should expect to be sorted publicly or immediately (and I have a hunch it's more complicated than plumbing and light fixture parts cited as examples).

Companies have teething issues and Ginault is doing something new. My only actual, concrete concern is how they'll fix my watch.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

NeedAG said:


> IMO the only relevant uncertainty is their service. :think:
> 
> *A major difference between a $550 watch and a $1,300 watch is what happens when it breaks under warranty. *
> 
> ...


Since yours arrived with a problem, I believe they should have shipped you a new one and taken the broken one back in exchange. Had the watch worked out of the gate and then broken down at some point later, a warranty claim would be more appropriate.

I completely agree on your other points. A rational, reasoned perspective.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> The distinction for me is that they didn't promise a high-quality watch and deliver a clunker with dubious, sub-par components. As for trust and integrity, there may never be sufficient proof that they acted maliciously as opposed to in ignorance/naivety. That's a very key point. Doesn't mean some things shouldn't be addressed to bring the matter in line with the regulatory requirements, but the incredibly dogmatic witch hunt approach is not sensible or even rational. What remains are some questions over the true origins of some of the parts. That becomes a legal matter that will NOT be solved on WUS, so why beat it to death so harshly? To me that is simply warped, obsessive thinking. It is clear to all of us that some of their marketing needs revision. I don't know much about the Weiss or Shinola situations, but did they choose to come on a public forum and lay everything on the table, or were things simply handled in some way from the legal angle and perhaps then disclosed more broadly? We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes here in terms of legal challenges, and for certain they will have been advised to stand down if anything has been pushed (or even thought to be pending) in that regard. IMO, the folks who simply refuse to chill and take a wait and see approach are pushing a different agenda altogether.


I would add that regarding trust and integrity, it is not just a matter of parts sourcing but also concerns about potential company links to the replica market (not sure all info is still here-I believe some was deleted for breaking the rule about discussing replicas). IMO, there is still no slam dunk certainty on anything other than the reported quality of the watch, and I agree, the chance that additional info will arise on WUS without Ginault's direct involvement is minimal.

Other than that: nicely articulated position, and I generally agree (for what it's worth).


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Since yours arrived with a problem, I believe they should have shipped you a new one and taken the broken one back in exchange. Had the watch worked out of the gate and then broken down at some point later, a warranty claim would be more appropriate.


I agree. Makara did this for me, twice, when I got first one and then (in replacement) a second defective Hawksbill Sea Turtle (and this on a watch that cost half as much as a discounted Ginault).


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

For those who want to read up on Weiss and their provenance claims for their watches:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/weiss-about-become-fully-american-made-3326106.html


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

I've seen the Ginault Base Module 1 which was a sterile sub that was released in 2010 or so.
It was advertised by Ginault to be powered by an ETA movement, surprisingly the case back has "Made in USA" stamp and it looks like the ocean-rover one. Hence I believe they just used that claim out-of ignorance nothing more.
You can see a video review if you Google it.

instagram @ the_watchier


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

NeedAG said:


> IMO the only relevant uncertainty is their service. :think:
> 
> *A major difference between a $550 watch and a $1,300 watch is what happens when it breaks under warranty. *
> 
> ...


Did you order the date version by any chance?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## hikeNbike (Oct 26, 2013)

jlow28 said:


> I would be courteous to know who here has purchased this watch at full price and get their take on it. Saying it's a $1000 -$1300 watch and spending that amount to purchase one are two different things to me.
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


I know the stated goal of the big discount is to get the watches out there to be reviewed. But I dont know that its going to help sales if his goal is to sell the rest at full price. I think knowing that folks paid 500 for it regardless of the rave reviews going to be a tough sell at 1300. Almost think he should have just sent out some samples to get reviewed and then took his chances that people would order if it was well reviewed.

yadda yadda tapatalk


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

hikeNbike said:


> I know the stated goal of the big discount is to get the watches out there to be reviewed. But I dont know that its going to help sales if his goal is to sell the rest at full price. I think knowing that folks paid 500 for it regardless of the rave reviews going to be a tough sell at 1300. Almost think he should have just sent out some samples to get reviewed and then took his chances that people would order if it was well reviewed.
> 
> yadda yadda tapatalk


I think the discount code still works and by my count there have been more than 10 watches sold. I'm not sure what his plan is but it seems to be other than stated.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I've reviewed this watch elsewhere, but bottom line for me is mine exceeded my expectations on the movement (set against time.gov 13 Jan, 25 seconds fast as of 20 Jan., so gaining approximately 3.5 seconds per day). Fit and finish is equal to, and in some ways exceeds (specifically the dial execution for example) higher end micros such as my CREPAS Cayman. 

The drama around the American Made claims is extremely overblown in my opinion. Regardless of Ginault's adherence to the letter of the law surrounding that claim, relatively speaking I believe my Ginault is a heck of a lot more "American Made" than my Steinhart is "Swiss Made".

Biggest risk regarding Ginault in my opinion is the same with any brand - will they be there to support me 6 months / 6 years down the road? This concern is certainly not solely on Ginault. I can't think of any micro that couldn't shutter their doors tomorrow and even some of the Swiss majors are risk. For example, what are my chances if I need to get replacements hands or dial for my JeanRichard a few years from now?

The Ginault movement is clearly an ETA 2824-2 clone. I suspect any watchmaker could keep it running well into the future. The case is damn close to 16610 case, so replacement click springs, crystals, and bezel inserts should remain available far into the future as well. I think you could keep this watch going a long time if so inclined.

The Ocean Rover works for me. If you are looking for a Mil Sub homage, you could do far worse, and for the offered price, I'm not certain you could do better.


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

^ Right on and solid point brought up in your review elsewhere.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> I've reviewed this watch elsewhere, but bottom line for me is mine exceeded my expectations on the movement (set against time.gov 13 Jan, 25 seconds fast as of 20 Jan., so gaining approximately 3.5 seconds per day). Fit and finish is equal to, and in some ways exceeds (specifically the dial execution for example) higher end micros such as my CREPAS Cayman.
> 
> *The drama around the American Made claims is extremely overblown in my opinion. Regardless of Ginault's adherence to the letter of the law surrounding that claim, relatively speaking I believe my Ginault is a heck of a lot more "American Made" than my Steinhart is "Swiss Made".
> *
> ...


Well, I sure hope you are right(bolded part). If the made in the USA stamp eventually comes off, then we will know that the FTC forced them to remove it which will mean they were not made in the USA at all as it is a fairly liberal standard and deception on their part. And I certainly hope that it is USA made as it appears to be a quality product and we need more of that.

On a side note, I wonder how many have been made thus far? are they numbered or serialized?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Stellite said:


> Well, I sure hope you are right(bolded part). If the made in the USA stamp eventually comes off, then we will know that the FTC forced them to remove it *which will mean they were not made in the USA at all as it is a fairly liberal standard and deception on their part*. And I certainly hope that it is USA made as it appears to be a quality product and we need more of that.
> 
> On a side note, I wonder how many have been made thus far? are they numbered or serialized?


Regarding the bold point, I believe you are incorrect. The Made in America is not a liberal standard at all. On the contrary I t is extremely specific. Much more so than the "Swiss Made" standard by comparison.

Removing the statement actually does not mean they were not made in the USA at all. It just means some components were imported. 90% of the product could be domestically manufactured and the product made in a US factory, but the 10% of parts which were imported would be enough to exclude you from using Made in America. If you have a product made from both domestic and imported parts you can have Assembled in the USA. The information on this is available online.

If you want to paint Ginault as deceptive, you must also condemn Weiss. My opinion is they are small manufacturers who were maybe a bit too proud of the volume of manufacturing done in America and overstepped based on ignorance rather than deception.

If this is the only ax one has to grind against Ginault, then I think they are doing well.

Regarding your second question, yes, the caseback is numbered and the movement is serialized.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

The casebacks are from an earlier model. So says Ginault. 


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

hwa said:


> The casebacks are from an earlier model. So says Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


maybe so but I just pulled this from their website:



> Ginault Caliber 7275. 25 Red Jewels, Rh45 Rhodium-Copper Alloy Main Plate & Bridge, Blue Steel Screws, GC31 Gears, Nivarox Hairspring, Nivarox Mainspring, WJL Shock Absorber, Date, Hour/Minute/Second Hands, 28,800 BPH, 38 Hours Power Reserve. Cut, Machined, Assembled and Fine Tuned in the United States.


They provide lots of detail on the movement which is good. And they admit what parts are not made in the USA. They are definitely more forthcoming than some other brands.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I was speaking to the post that said caseback numbered. They are, but from earlier model, so not indicative of number of ORs made. Thats not a criticism! 


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Stellite said:


> maybe so but I just pulled this from their website:
> 
> They provide lots of detail on the movement which is good. And they admit what parts are not made in the USA. They are definitely more forthcoming than some other brands.


So maybe recast the discussion for a minute: if Ginault just offered it up as is, with eta clone and minus the made in usa claim, who'd pay $1300 for it? Whats the economic value of the appeal to patriotism?

Serious question. Who's willing to pay more for the fuzzy feeling of knowing its made in us? Globalism/offshoring literally is the result of people insisting on paying less, regardless of who does the work and for what pay. Currently, American mfr'ing is dead because of that, despite decades of unions pushing for patriotism and protectionism. The hipsters are trying to bring it back with $250 blue jeans and $1000 quartz watches.

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## JustMe74 (Jan 11, 2017)

hwa said:


> So maybe recast the discussion for a minute: if Ginault just offered it up as is, with eta clone and minus the made in usa claim, who'd pay $1300 for it? Whats the economic value of the appeal to patriotism?
> 
> Serious question. Who's willing to pay more for the fuzzy feeling of knowing its made in us? Globalism/offshoring literally is the result of people insisting on paying less, regardless of who does the work and for what pay. Currently, American mfr'ing is dead because of that, despite decades of unions pushing for patriotism and protectionism. The hipsters are trying to bring it back with $250 blue jeans and $1000 quartz watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd gladly pay $1300 for a truly made in the USA automatic watch, but not for a "Sub homage" - I'd buy something original.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Stellite said:


> maybe so but I just pulled this from their website:
> 
> They provide lots of detail on the movement which is good. And they admit what parts are not made in the USA. They are definitely more forthcoming than some other brands.


This is my point.

I don't believe there was intentional deceit here. By clearing stating the foreign origins of some components, it seems clear to me the use of "Made in America" was simply an overstepping based upon ignorance and pride in their achievement of a mostly American made movement.

If, on the other hand, they had "Buy this Made in America Watch!" plastered all over their website (as in Shinola) and it was the core message of their marketing, then I would think differently.

In reality, we are all simply projecting. Some will see willful intent to deceive, others won't.

Do I think my Seiko SKX007J is truly "Made in Japan" like it says on the dial? No. Do I believe Seiko is willfully being deceitful? No. They are just playing within the boundaries set by the Japanese government for using this statement. Same for 90%+ of the allegedly "Swiss Made" watches. The Swiss government sets their standard for using this statement and manufactures take as much advantage as they can in order to capitalize on using the "Swiss Made" stamp as an indication of quality. I could argue there is more deceitful intent here through artificially highly valuing the "Swiss" components of a "Swiss Made" watch than I see with Ginault.

My feelings toward the watch are 100% based upon its performance relative to other watches I personally own. If it fails to perform at some point in the future, my feelings will change. After 7 days of constant wear including a weekend of skiing (where I did take a spill), the watch is still exceeding my expectations.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Just to add a quick point - I did not buy the watch due to it being allegedly "Made in America". I bought the watch because it offered what I was looking for: a mil-sub homage with applied indices, reasonable size, gloss dial, domed sapphire crystal, and a reportedly good bezel (a pet peeve of mine - I can't stand sloppy bezel action) and vintage lume that actually worked and didn't look burnt yellow. The Armida A2 (running at a similar price as the Ginault offer, but FullSwing manufactured) has a printed dial. The MKii Fulcrum is close, but I like bracelets and at $2,000, you are in used Tudor territory, not a micro. 

If a 100% Made in America watch looked similar to recent Hublot designs for example (and not to disparage Hublot, it is just their designs are a bit too unique for my tastes) and even priced at $100, I still would not buy it.


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## Grahamelawton (Aug 16, 2014)

Don't you find this "Made in America" argument is getting old? Or is this a BIGGER discussion and the thread is simply using Ginault as an example. Mmmmm. Cheers all. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

It is getting old. As stated above, they specifically state that some parts were sourced outside the USA yet have "Made in the USA" on the caseback. That indicates a mistake to me and presumably it will be addressed. Then we're down to the watch, which seems to have wowed everyone who bought one so far (excepting one that was defective).

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> if Ginault just offered it up as is, with eta clone and minus the made in usa claim, who'd pay $1300 for it?


As I have said before, I would.

I don't know of another watch at or below that price with anywhere near the quality of the Ginault with all the features I want: 40mm, no date, sword or straight hands, adjustable-on-wrist bracelet, applied indices. Oh, and no endless wait lists like for MKII and OWC.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> So maybe recast the discussion for a minute: if Ginault just offered it up as is, with eta clone and minus the made in usa claim, who'd pay $1300 for it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just a snip of a quote, but I believe you just described a MKii Fulcrum. The Soprod A-10 is an ETA 2892-2 clone (well, maybe a more accurately described as a Seiko-based movement clone that happens to fit exactly in the space required for an ETA 2892-2). MKii gets $2,000 for this watch and it ships without a bracelet.

I've not personally handled a MKii Fulcrum so I am not qualified to make a direct comparison, but I struggle to see nearly $1,500 worth of difference between the two watches from photos. Again, I may be showing my ignorance as a used Fulcrum listed for $2K just sold in a few hours. Somebody must see the value in a $2K Mil-Sub homage.

As I said before, at $2,000, I'd be more interested in saving a little bit more and getting a used Tudor Pelagos or Black Bay. These watches may not be functionally any better, but I have more confidence in long term serviceability and the have a true pedigree. That statement for me holds true for MKii, Monta or Ginault (if they priced themselves at the $2K level).


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I forgot I probably should post a pic to at least prove I actually own the watch we are all discussing...

















Such a sweet dome. I wish Rolex used domed crystals on more of their watches.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

The Sub hasn't had a dome since the 5513 was discontinued in 1989. There was the DSSD, but it doesn't fit the same niche being 44mm wide by 17.7mm thick (I believe it's discontinued now and don't think Rolex currently makes ANY watches with a domed crystal, but please correct me if I'm wrong). Of course, Rolex's Tudor brand does make some very nice domed crystals. The Black Bay is probably the closest you'll get. It's basically a Sub but doesn't get the "Submariner" label like previous Tudor divers from the 90's and earlier. ("Submariner" is a Rolex trademark so, technically, Rolex gets the final say on what is, and what is not, a true "Submariner").

But yes, they got the dome on this watch right, including the sloping edges. Now if they could just work on that dial text...



Ryeguy said:


> Such a sweet dome. I wish Rolex used domed crystals on more of their watches.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> Just a snip of a quote, but I believe you just described a MKii Fulcrum. The Soprod A-10 is an ETA 2892-2 clone (well, maybe a more accurately described as a Seiko-based movement clone that happens to fit exactly in the space required for an ETA 2892-2). MKii gets $2,000 for this watch and it ships without a bracelet.
> 
> I've not personally handled a MKii Fulcrum so I am not qualified to make a direct comparison, but I struggle to see nearly $1,500 worth of difference between the two watches from photos. Again, I may be showing my ignorance as a used Fulcrum listed for $2K just sold in a few hours. Somebody must see the value in a $2K Mil-Sub homage.
> 
> As I said before, at $2,000, I'd be more interested in saving a little bit more and getting a used Tudor Pelagos or Black Bay. These watches may not be functionally any better, but I have more confidence in long term serviceability and the have a true pedigree. That statement for me holds true for MKii, Monta or Ginault (if they priced themselves at the $2K level).


Mkii is arguably one of the most over priced watch brands. How they successfully get people to buy homage watches for close to 2k is the impressive.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

the_watchier said:


> I've seen the Ginault Base Module 1 which was a sterile sub that was released in 2010 or so.
> It was advertised by Ginault to be powered by an ETA movement, surprisingly the case back has "Made in USA" stamp and it looks like the ocean-rover one. Hence I believe they just used that claim out-of ignorance nothing more.
> You can see a video review if you Google it.
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


This is a good point. I did some research on this matter and it is true. Their BM1 was using the same casebacks as the OR. And Ginault advertised the movement used then as ETA. In our email communication John said the casebacks used on the OR was from the same batch made back in the days for the BM1. To me they are very open about which parts were imported and which parts were made here more than many other Swiss brands. I also believe this made in usa thing is ignorance rather than intention to deceive.

P.S.They r turning out some new caseback to fix this issue. I was told I will be mailed a replacement caseback when they finish making it.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> I was speaking to the post that said caseback numbered. They are, but from earlier model, so not indicative of number of ORs made. Thats not a criticism!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is a good point. The casebacks were for their BM1 so even tho they are numbered it is no longer indicative on the numbers produced for the OR.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> So maybe recast the discussion for a minute: if Ginault just offered it up as is, with eta clone and minus the made in usa claim, who'd pay $1300 for it? Whats the economic value of the appeal to patriotism?
> 
> Serious question. Who's willing to pay more for the fuzzy feeling of knowing its made in us? Globalism/offshoring literally is the result of people insisting on paying less, regardless of who does the work and for what pay. Currently, American mfr'ing is dead because of that, despite decades of unions pushing for patriotism and protectionism. The hipsters are trying to bring it back with $250 blue jeans and $1000 quartz watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I actually do not care if this watch is build in China or India. The quality of the OR really speaks. Would I pay $1300 now knowing this is the quality they produce? Yes. That's why at $600 I really think it is a steal.

Another thing I am sensing from the emails is that they are actually more proud of the quality they achieved rather than trying to spin the US patriotism game. I am sure many of us here would not mind paying an X% more for US made products. But would we still pay that X% premium if the quality is crap? I don't think so. So if today Ginault was selling an all US made and all verified crappy quality watch would the company survive in today's market? I doubt many of us would be that patriotic. So to me IMHO I don't think they are using this made in US claim to drive up the price but rather they are just proud of their good quality and asking a fair price on this damn good watch.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

What about all the watches with the SW200? None of them worth more than $500 either? Isn't the Sellita a 2824 clone?

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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Replacement casebacks? That seems above and beyond what the FTC would ask them to do. Ginault should proactively contact the FTC for advice.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Who knows? Ginault emailed me to say that was a possibility, but that they're consulting with their lawyers. Judge for yourselves. 

As for @avo's claim, all i can say is to wonder aloud why theyd say all they say about provenance if they didn't think it meritorious or financially helpful. Naïveté isn't sexy. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I think making a significant proportion of the components in the USA - and assembling it there - warrants some praise. Replace the casebacks if FTC advises to do so and move on. Take another run at the Secret Service model? Seems to be some interest in that one too. Owners can enjoy the awesome quality of the OR in the meantime.

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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm sure they think it's meritorious. I think it's meritorious too. I've come close to buying a Weiss for exactly that reason (the $950 one with a Swiss-parts, American-assembled 6498 in an American case).

My statement on the Ginault is that I like mine enough to be willing to pay $1299 for it even if the American-made claims turn out to be exaggerated (and I have no evidence that they are, just repeating other people's qualms).

And be sure to read longside's just-posted review:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html


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## tallguy (Feb 14, 2006)

There is not much that I can add in either words or pictures to the great reviews that have been posted so far. Let me just say that I have owned several subs over the years, from Rolex and Tudor to Squale and Armida, and this one ranks right up towards the top in all departments. Well worth the discounted price so if you're on the fence I say grab one while you can.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

tallguy said:


> There is not much that I can add in either words or pictures to the great reviews that have been posted so far. Let me just say that I have owned several subs over the years, from Rolex and Tudor to Squale and Armida, and this one ranks right up towards the top in all departments. Well worth the discounted price so if you're on the fence I say grab one while you can.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that reflection or a blue tinted hands set?


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## tallguy (Feb 14, 2006)

Just the light I guess...


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Still enjoying mine. +45 seconds after 11 days of wear, three of which were spent skiing (and falling). No complaints on the movement from me.

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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)




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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

We need to flood this thread with some pics. Time for the fancy cameraaaaa


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Post a WTB. The Ginault will match any AMG as does the Steinhart look-a-like. However, you will not find someone to trade his Ginault or Steinhart for your Sub.


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

People look at you wearing a sub and assume it's fake, people look at me wearing the OR and just ask what it is.

watch nuts look at you wearing a sub and assume your life partner bought it for you, 
because a watch nut would probably buy a dozen other watches in the 10K range before buying a sub...
I'm not complaining mind you after I bought that dozen other watches I sure as hell would buy a sub too ;-)

And why would you let your driver wear your watch anway?


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)




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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> View attachment 10618706


issue solved?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

OldeCrow said:


> And why would you let your driver wear your watch anway?


LOL! But alas the post this refers to seems to have been removed ...


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

lol I was so proud of myself for coming up with that comment too!

still dig-n the OR...


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> issue solved?


Ginault replaced the watch that had an issue!

I'd taken the stickers off the head before I noticed the problem (watch ran great, but did not hack), so was not sure if they'd repair, or replace. They did the right thing with replacement IMO. |>|>|>









It is great to work with a U.S. company -- 2 days away by USPS! :-!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)




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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)




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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Ginault thread = Bermuda triangle for posts.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> View attachment 10625266


Looks good radar uno

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Writing this on my journey home from the office... I picked up my Ocean Rover this morning and have enjoyed it's presence all day.

Very very nice... wasn't sure if the dial would be Marmite and maybe it still is... but I like it. I like it a lot.

In terms of comparison to my safe queen Tritium dial 14060 I would say this more than holds its own. And I don't conversation that easily... the 14060 was (and is) my grail... near perfect execution of a sports diver by Rolex.

Of course time will tell if the Ginault has longevity but there are a couple of elements where this literally blows away my old Sub!

1. The crystal... 14060 too flat too average. This beauty has a sublime crystal... best I've experienced in a Sub anywhere (personal preference of course).

2. Bracelet and clasp... 14060 just so so... bit of a rattle and end pieces just ok. The Ginault has an amazing glidelock clasp and really nice bracelet with perfect end piece fitment.

3. (Added after night 1) the lume is pretty awesome and lights up like a torch... and was still very good (clear) after my six hours sleep! It's a definite plus compared with some other homages I've had e.g. Steinhart, Squale, Davosa and compared to a Tritium 14060 which was nearly 20 years old there is no comparison. But who knows what the lume could be like in 3-4 years let alone 20 when the Ginault reaches that maturity.

In nearly every other respect this matches up with every other sub and sub homage I've handled. Including MKII Kingston, OWC, and blows away most other "affordable" sub homages... really! But that's my day one impressions.

Edit: an observation on case back.

The case back seems more domed than the Rolex which makes it sit slightly less flat/low on the wrist in comparison. Not sure if this is due to the thickness of the movement or a conscious / unconscious decision to use stock parts that were already manufactured? It's not even a minus point as it sits nicely enough and is by no means a thick watch overall.

Overall it is a "Bravo" to Ginault...

The only question remains is this worth MSRP? Well... I wouldn't say it isn't worth it. I remain on the fence and reserve judgement until the movement has proven reliable, and to see if warranty is honoured long term... and if Ginault continues to be present in the market place. If they are and there is real demonstrable committment to customer support and backup then this could be a rare WIS bargain.

I hope to review further after a few weeks/months maybe... and I've no beef with the other BS around provenance and claims etc. That's my choice and I can live with it.

Superb quality and beauty of the watch shines through.

Footnote : I received the full discount in return for a comparison review. I'm not biased though as I hope others would back me up on I'm just a Sub lover and I know a good one when I see one.


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Writing this on my journey home from the office... I picked up my Ocean Rover this morning and have enjoyed it's presence all day.
> 
> Very very nice... wasn't sure if the dial would be Marmite and maybe it still is... but I like it. I like it a lot.
> 
> ...


That is my impression of the watch as well.








I think that they have sold way more than the 10 they said they were going to sell at the discounted price so I do not believe that they will be sold at the MSRP. That said it is easily a $600 watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

I feel pretty good at scoring this via the price I did. Solid and right on for the new incomings. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Writing this on my journey home from the office... I picked up my Ocean Rover this morning and have enjoyed it's presence all day.
> 
> Very very nice... wasn't sure if the dial would be Marmite and maybe it still is... but I like it. I like it a lot.
> 
> ...


I really do love this watch. I just wish it was a bit larger in diameter - like 42 or 43 mm.


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

rosborn said:


> I really do love this watch. I just wish it was a bit larger in diameter - like 42 or 43 mm.


Steinhart

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rbesass said:


> Steinhart
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The finishing on the Steinharts is simply not at the same level.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> The finishing on the Steinharts is simply not at the same level.


I have not owned a Steinhart but my OR can stand on its own against my Hulk.

Has anyone done a Steinhart VS Ocean Rover comparison?


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

Radar1 said:


> The finishing on the Steinharts is simply not at the same level.


I own a Steinhart and is a very nice watch. It is not the same watch so I would not compare them head to head but the build quality is similar. Just my opinion. Your mileage may very.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Steinhart is good value for sure. I have owned two Ocean One models. The Ginault is definitely nicer. 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> I have not owned a Steinhart but my OR can stand on its own against my Hulk.
> 
> Has anyone done a Steinhart VS Ocean Rover comparison?


I would love to see a comparison pic of the two together. They should be nearly the same size.


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

Stellite said:


> I would love to see a comparison pic of the two together. They should be nearly the same size.











Ginault is 40mm. Steinhart is 42mm. Mine is modded with sword hands and ceramic bezel insert. This Steinhart is an Ocean One Red.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

rbesass said:


> Ginault is 40mm. Steinhart is 42mm. Mine is modded with sword hands and ceramic bezel insert. This Steinhart is an Ocean One Red.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks !

One thing I can tell right away is the SEL fitment of the two. But then again SEL fitment is something you generally become nitpicky about when you spent 8K on a Sub. At the sub 1K range I would think it's fine.


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

mf1tym said:


> Thanks !
> 
> One thing I can tell right away is the SEL fitment of the two. But then again SEL fitment is something you generally become nitpicky about when you spent 8K on a Sub. At the sub 1K range I would think it's fine.


I will concede that the Ginault bracelet is nicer.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

rbesass said:


> Ginault is 40mm. Steinhart is 42mm. Mine is modded with sword hands and ceramic bezel insert. This Steinhart is an Ocean One Red.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Right away, you can tell the difference in the end link fitment. The steinhart has a clearly visible gap. The ginault does not. The links also seem to be more loosely spaced on the steinhart, whereas the ginault is much tighter.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

mf1tym said:


> I have not owned a Steinhart but my OR can stand on its own against my Hulk.
> 
> Has anyone done a Steinhart VS Ocean Rover comparison?


I have an OR inbound, might do a h2h with an OVM I have

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

I will be comparing it to a first generation Steinhart OVM as well as the Tisell Marine Diver.

sent from my phone


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

I wonder how many of these have been made? It wouldn't really make much sense I wouldn't have thought to produce less than 100 pieces? And other than through this forum (and a website) I wonder how Ginault are going to promote their brand and this release? Will the pricing and discount strategy change? Will any of the marketing and "issues" be addressed first?

I find this quite interesting now the Genie is out of the bottle so to speak.

Just updated my post with a few more observations... https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=37921994


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Under heading of junk science, my caseback reads 200/400. Dont see many of the first model--unbelievably named the BM1, which could only be worse if called BM2--so subtract x from 400 for your high end of this first run of the OR. No promises that its an LE. 

As for the rest of Woz's questions, i get the feeling the plan is to let it marinate pending any ftc intervention, which given political realities is anybody's guess. 

Personally, the overall build quality overshoots many competitors, but theyre not going to move these at anything like $1300 without opening the lid on the movement. We all know how WIS get about their ETAs, justified or not. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rbesass said:


> I will concede that the Ginault bracelet is nicer.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As is the clasp, crystal, markers, enamel dial, overall fit and finish. Given a choice between the Ginault and an Ocean One the choice is a no-brainer for me.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

In an earlier response I did express "concern" about the 40mm diameter of the watch. I did, however, take a look at both Tudor and Rolex time pieces, which these watches seem to be modeled after, and noticed that the Tudor Black Bay and traditional Rolex Submariners are right at 40/41mm as well. So, I guess I am just used to the modern large time pieces. Maybe the Ocean Rover is more in line with the traditional time piece and, sans the date, would look okay on my 7" wrist.


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

I have one on order (Can't wait to receive it!), the only downside to me about the watch is the aluminum bezel, the marketing on ceramic bezels by numerous other brands have made me assume that aluminum bezels scratch easily. How much truth is there to this?


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## rbesass (Dec 18, 2014)

Sylafari said:


> I have one on order (Can't wait to receive it!), the only downside to me about the watch is the aluminum bezel, the marketing on ceramic bezels by numerous other brands have made me assume that aluminum bezels scratch easily. How much truth is there to this?


I have found that there are cheap aluminum bezel inserts that scratch easy and there are nice ones that don't scratch as easily. I have been wearing my Ginault at work since I received it and have done no damage to it. This one seems to be a better one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Sylafari said:


> I have one on order (Can't wait to receive it!), the only downside to me about the watch is the aluminum bezel, the marketing on ceramic bezels by numerous other brands have made me assume that aluminum bezels scratch easily. How much truth is there to this?


There is no doubt that ceramic has a higher scratch resistance than aluminum. But I've been wearing mine for the past weeks and so far it holds up fine. I also think aside from functionality the aluminum insert on this model would look more fitting than ceramic as this is more like the 16610/14060 style watch rather than the 116610


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

^yep... what these guys said... this has a really nice quality insert and the best bit is you will definitely be able to drop in a gen Rolex one of the mood takes you ;-) just swap the pearls to keep it as designed. 

There has been a few people talk about ceramic inserts... and I think that would have to be one thin slither of ceramic to fit flush in the bezel ring... and if they had designed a different bezel ring to take a gen spec ceramic then it would likely raise the crystal height and increase the overall height of the watch. Not in keeping with the 11610/14060 style of case. 

What we need is somebody to start producing a decent 114060 homage so we can have best of both worlds right?


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Nicest <$600 watch I've owned! |>|>|>


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> View attachment 10655322
> 
> 
> Nicest <$600 watch I've owned! |>|>|>


What does the reading mean? I know 28800 is the bph. Aside from that rest is all lost on me. LOL sorry


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

Means the watch runs at an average of 0 seconds per day. 

In other news, I got a Order is Complete email from Ginault but with no tracking number.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

Sylafari said:


> Means the watch runs at an average of 0 seconds per day.
> 
> In other news, I got a Order is Complete email from Ginault but with no tracking number.


Give it a little time between the confirmation and the tracking info.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Sylafari said:


> Means the watch runs at an average of 0 seconds per day.
> 
> In other news, I got a Order is Complete email from Ginault but with no tracking number.


Thanks!whatabout308?


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> Thanks!whatabout308?


The balance is swinging thru 308 degrees (amplitude)... which is very healthy, about as high as 2824s are supposed to get. The 0.1 indicates that the left vs. right swings of the balance are taking within 0.1ms of each other (beat error). The tight clean line indicates consistency. 

Should've noted, the beat error is consistent in every position. The watch rate is within 5sec across 6 positions. On the wrist it's about -2s/day. 

I use 2824s in most of my builds (have 8 atm) and new Swiss have usually shown around 285 - 300 amplitude (wound by wear) and 0.1 to 0.3ms beat error (which usually varies by position). Rate across positions usually varies by 6 - 8 sec. (I consider this very good)

These small differences are hard to make happen. This runs better than an average new Swiss 2824. The watch Ginault replaced also ran this well. |>

I believe Ginault does individually adjust them. :-!


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

I have a couple of watches for sale at the moment and I'm very tempted to pick one of these up if either sells. Is anyone who has received one planning on doing a video review?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

andyk8 said:


> I have a couple of watches for sale at the moment and I'm very tempted to pick one of these up if either sells. Is anyone who has received one planning on doing a video review?


I believe sdgenius has one in the works. You could PM him or do a search for Average Bros on YouTube.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ginault said:


> That's why we are ready to prepare a special 55% off offer if you can agree to share a write up (at least 350 words) with pictures on WUS or an "open box" clip on Youtube with you narrating your thoughts and opinion after you receive our watches.
> 
> Use coupon code: openbox55 (limted 10 use) Please provide us with your WUS/Youtube username in the comment section during checkout.
> .
> ...


When everyone get a special discount, is it still special? Invicta kind of special? :-d Ginault sure has some special marketing. :roll:


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

RNHC said:


> When everyone get a special discount, is it still special? Invicta kind of special? :-d Ginault sure has some special marketing. :roll:


Not you again!! Having a good discussion and you have to interject your negativity once again, we get it you don't like Ginault.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

pepcr1 said:


> Not you again!! Having a good discussion and you have to interject your negativity once again, we get it you don't like Ginault.


I feel unappreciated. ;-) And it's not negativity but skepticism. But you're right. No matter how I feel about Ginault, Ocean Rover seems like a finely made watch by all accounts. I should stop being _yang _to Radar1's _yin_. I shall leave you guys to your own devices - or one device (Ocean Rover), in this case.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Yup. Finally a civilised thread and immediately starts stirring the pot again. Clean up on Aisle 5...

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

the_watchier said:


> I have an OR inbound, might do a h2h with an OVM I have
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and comparisons, I enjoy the looks of both immensely, they appear to be what people like and what a homage should be, an accessible piece well priced and of high quality.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Hi, Radar1! :-d


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and comparisons, I enjoy the looks of both immensely, they appear to be what people like and what a homage should be, an accessible piece well priced and of high quality.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


I just got the notification that my watch is shipped today, so will see how long till it arrived to Canada.

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

I've got a OR in the air (with tracking) right now. Plan to compare it with my 1st Gen OVM and my Tisell Marine Diver. 

sent from my phone


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

So after rereading the original post and looking at the detailed photos of many of the parts of this watch, I notice that it is substantially more disclosure that most other micro brands on here. This includes the description, which again provides considerable detail. I guess the only question is whether someone believes them or not. I cannot imagine that any company on this forum would put something in writing with pictures and have it all be a lie if it comes out. So I choose to believe that the detail is true. Again, I do not have one so I can't speak to the specific watch but many already have.


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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

NeedAG said:


> The balance is swinging thru 308 degrees (amplitude)... which is very healthy, about as high as 2824s are supposed to get. The 0.1 indicates that the left vs. right swings of the balance are taking within 0.1ms of each other (beat error). The tight clean line indicates consistency.
> 
> Should've noted, the beat error is consistent in every position. The watch rate is within 5sec across 6 positions. On the wrist it's about -2s/day.
> 
> ...


As much as I like mine, it isn't running anywhere near as well as yours. Mine gains at least 20 seconds a day. Oh well.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Apexer said:


> As much as I like mine, it isn't running anywhere near as well as yours. Mine gains at least 20 seconds a day. Oh well.


What did your timing certificate specify for accuracy?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Apexer said:


> As much as I like mine, it isn't running anywhere near as well as yours. Mine gains at least 20 seconds a day. Oh well.


Mine is running +4 after two weeks of wear which includes several days of skiing (and falling). Unfortunately, yours is the worst running example I've heard of.

Maybe be try to demagnetize it? Odd to suggest this as a magnetized watch usually gains minutes plus per day, but figured it is worth a shot.

As Radar1 suggested, if your adjustment chart is vastly different (as I suspect it is), I'd expect something has happened such as a good jolt or something.


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## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> What did your timing certificate specify for accuracy?











It it was running about 2 minutes fast for a while. It has calmed down to 15 seconds...


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

Apexer said:


> View attachment 10679162
> 
> 
> It it was running about 2 minutes fast for a while. It has calmed down to 15 seconds...


Have you reached out to John @ Ginault? Seems like a responsive guy.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Apexer said:


> As much as I like mine, it isn't running anywhere near as well as yours. Mine gains at least 20 seconds a day. Oh well.


Sounds like it was magnetized in shipping, especially if it was initially gaining minutes per day. Definitely contact Ginault.

The cheapo blue demagnetizers are a great thing to have around! Hope you get it sorted soon.


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)




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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> Sounds like it was magnetized in shipping, especially if it was initially gaining minutes per day. Definitely contact Ginault.
> 
> The cheapo blue demagnetizers are a great thing to have around! Hope you get it sorted soon.


I highly recommend getting one of those demagnetizers as well. I've had two watches get magnetized in shipping. Keep in mind that many devices that get shipped, especially large speakers and subwoofers have massive magnets. If your watch got near one there's a good chance it became magnetized.


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

Mrwozza70 said:


>


Outstanding picture.!!!! Does show the quality of the watch off.

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


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## Fullers1845 (Nov 23, 2008)

Mrwozza70 said:


> I'm not biased though as I hope others would back me up on I'm just a Sub lover and I know a good one when I see one.


Hear, hear! +1


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

Well it showed up today! That was pretty fast. No review yet (I'm going to check it out for a while first). First impression...well they say the devil is in the details...then this is one hell of a watch.

I will be comparing it against my Steinhart OVM (1st gen.) and Tisell "Hulk" sub. At a quick glance the Tisell holds up pretty decently considering it's a $200 watch....but like I said, details count.

Quick pic:








Oh...and F.Y.I. the back no longer says "Made in America". Just the dial says "Hand built in America".


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Astropin said:


> Well it showed up today! That was pretty fast. No review yet (I'm going to check it out for a while first). First impression...well they say the devil is in the details...then this is one hell of a watch.
> 
> I will be comparing it against my Steinhart OVM (1st gen.) and Tisell "Hulk" sub. At a quick glance the Tisell holds up pretty decently considering it's a $200 watch....but like I said, details count.
> 
> ...


Solid and that was fast on the case back.


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Interested in seeing that case back... but congratulations... welcome to the not so secret cult of G.O.R.F (Ginault Ocean Rover Fanatics)


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Interested in seeing that case back.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

Astropin said:


> View attachment 10700594


Hmmm, can't say I'm a huge fan of them making changes like that. What I mean is, all the reviews show one thing, and then this randomly ships without knowing....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> Hmmm, can't say I'm a huge fan of them making changes like that. What I mean is, all the reviews show one thing, and then this randomly ships without knowing....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Their old casebacks had the made in USA wording on it. Some members complained about if the parts used to build this watch were not 100% US made then made in USA claim cannot be marked on the product. So a few pages back there were mentions of Ginault making new casebacks which would meet FTC standards. I guess this is their reply to what they say they would do.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

mf1tym said:


> Their old casebacks had the made in USA wording on it. Some members complained about if the parts used to build this watch were not 100% US made then made in USA claim cannot be marked on the product. So a few pages back there were mentions of Ginault making new casebacks which would meet FTC standards. I guess this is their reply to what they say they would do.


Got it, and totally understand with the removal of the "made in the USA". I think the design looked much better on the old case back with wording around the diameter vs. the new.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aegir (Dec 4, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> Got it, and totally understand with the removal of the "made in the USA". I think the design looked much better on the old case back with wording around the diameter vs. the new.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hahahahahahaha. ROFL. Damned if ya do, damned of ya don't.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

aegir said:


> Hahahahahahaha. ROFL. Damned if ya do, damned of ya don't.


Perhaps I used the incorrect verbiage. The engraving around the caseback (original) looked.......a little more elegant, minus the made in the USA portion. Personal preference.....not criticizing, just my opinion.

I get why they made a sudden change though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

5661nicholas said:


> Perhaps I used the incorrect verbiage. The engraving around the caseback (original) looked.......a little more elegant, minus the made in the USA portion. Personal preference.....not criticizing, just my opinion.
> 
> I get why they made a sudden change though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I guess I don't really care too much about the caseback. I'm mean, they needed to change the verbage but other than that who really looks at the caseback....of any watch?

sent from my phone


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> Got it, and totally understand with the removal of the "made in the USA". I think the design looked much better on the old case back with wording around the diameter vs. the new.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup, I agree this is a personal preference type of thing. I as a customer don't really care that the parts were not 100% made here. They disclosed that information right off the bat. Even tho I know it might not qualify for this watch to have the made in USA wording on it (based on our government's strict regulation) I still would love to have the made in USA wording on my caseback. To me a watch with most parts made here is enough to be entitled to such claim. But then again that is just me speaking about my opinion when thinking about the Swiss Made standard.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Apexer said:


> View attachment 10679162
> 
> 
> It it was running about 2 minutes fast for a while. It has calmed down to 15 seconds...


Is the movement wound fully? I noticed mine would run a bit off when the power reserve is lower. But I am not sure if that means anything


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

mf1tym said:


> Is the movement wound fully? I noticed mine would run a bit off when the power reserve is lower. But I am not sure if that means anything


It should never be off by that much. Definitely sounds like it got magnetized during shipping.

sent from my phone


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

Just received mines. Will review it and compare it to my other watches (Sadly, both my other watches aren't divers) in a week or so.

Initial impression: I love it!

Not a great picture but here we go:


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Sylafari said:


> Just received mines. Will review it and compare it to my other watches (Sadly, both my other watches aren't divers) in a week or so.
> 
> Initial impression: I love it!
> 
> ...


Is that a different color indice?


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

No, its red its just the white balance is off. Like I said, bad picture 

But... there will be better ones


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Sylafari said:


> Just received mines. Will review it and compare it to my other watches (Sadly, both my other watches aren't divers) in a week or so.
> 
> Initial impression: I love it!
> 
> ...


Watch out brother the iPad or tablet cover has a very strong magnet and can really harm the movements

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Astropin said:


> View attachment 10700594


Thanks... I was curious whether it would be a flatter case back... It's not by the looks of it so I will be keeping mine as is. I don't suppose Ginault will be doing a recall or sending out 'fixed' case backs. But you never know I suppose?


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks for the warning. 

Also apparently the discount code has expired on the Ginault Ocean Rover.

Edit: Sorry about the rotated picture


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

the_watchier said:


> Watch out brother the iPad or tablet cover has a very strong magnet and can really harm the movements
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


That is good investigative skill ! lol connected the obvious but often forgotten things. Just to add on to this, cellphones, laptops anything that contains speakers also have a magnet inside. i think even portable hd too.


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

Astropin said:


> Quick pic:
> View attachment 10699234


After 24hrs on my wrist it is running +1.5 - 2 seconds.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Astropin said:


> After 24hrs on my wrist it is running +1.5 - 2 seconds.


I think I got mine magnetized...I type on my laptop wearing it. But that's also exactly the intend of getting this watch so it works as a daily beater but can also wear it nicely with any shirt/suit attire.


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

I would doubt it would be magnetized from using a laptop. They aren't that sensitive. 

sent from my phone


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Astropin said:


> I would doubt it would be magnetized from using a laptop. They aren't that sensitive.
> 
> sent from my phone


+1 
Even the modern cheapest Chinese movements don't get magnetized that easy

instagram @ the_watchier


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

After one day, it is currently running at +2 seconds. Hope it stays that way.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

Had to see what all the fuss is about...




























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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

the_watchier said:


> +1
> Even the modern cheapest Chinese movements don't get magnetized that easy
> 
> instagram @ the_watchier


That's what I thought in the past until I got some of my higher end pieces magnetized then I learned it happens easier than I thought.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Since most of the members here are all pro photographers I feel ashamed to upload a shot like this. But this is so far the only one I am semi satisfied with. Sorry for the bad camera works.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

mf1tym said:


> Since most of the members here are all pro photographers I feel ashamed to upload a shot like this. But this is so far the only one I am semi satisfied with. Sorry for the bad camera works.
> 
> View attachment 10727266


Nice shot, I find it tough to photograph because of the gloss dial. Really have to see it in the flesh to appreciate it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Mine arrived yesterday. Very impressive quality









instagram @ the_watchier


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

Very impressed myself

My review can be found here

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/gina...ark-2000m%96-review-4008314.html#post38276290










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## Passepied (Feb 4, 2017)

Could you tell me how much duties/customs fees you paid when you get it?


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

Paid £85 custom fees and £8.50 to parcel force

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

The build quality of the case, bracelet, and dial are definitely a step or 2 above other sub homages I have owned. Unfortunately mine seems to be keeping time at about +10spd, which I am a little disappointed with. Only 2 days in though, so we shall see. Amateur question, but anyone else struggle with putting the bracelet back on once removed? Pics for the heck of it...




























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## tallguy (Feb 14, 2006)

That's about what mine's running, and it should settle a bit. I'm ok with that...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> The build quality of the case, bracelet, and dial are definitely a step or 2 above other sub homages I have owned. Unfortunately mine seems to be keeping time at about +10spd, which I am a little disappointed with. Only 2 days in though, so we shall see. Amateur question, but anyone else struggle with putting the bracelet back on once removed? Pics for the heck of it...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice pictures. I really like the black straps. Are those leather or rubber? I think the bracelet is hard to take in and out due to the tight SEL to lug fitment which is a good thing.

I wouldn't be so worried about 10 seconds a day that is actually very close to COSC standards. Mine is about 12 spd which I am happy with. My 116610LV is about 8spd


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

the_watchier said:


> Mine arrived yesterday. Very impressive quality
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good are you going to do a review?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

mf1tym said:


> Nice pictures. I really like the black straps. Are those leather or rubber? I think the bracelet is hard to take in and out due to the tight SEL to lug fitment which is a good thing.
> 
> I wouldn't be so worried about 10 seconds a day that is actually very close to COSC standards. Mine is about 12 spd which I am happy with. My 116610LV is about 8spd


Thanks, the black strap on the bottom is a black horween leather racing strap.

After some patience I got the bracelet back on. Tricky, but it fits the case extremely well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Passepied (Feb 4, 2017)

They're offering 50% off with a comparison review now. I'm sure this would still be a bargain price for US citizens, but for international destinations, the customs fees would add an at least an additional 100 dollars. As a Canadian, the exchange rate in addition to customs fees and shipping would put this watch well over $1000. Damn.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Looks good are you going to do a review?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Yes I will... i decided to have it on my wrist for a week then will put a review together as well as a comparison with few other sub homages. Will post this on my blog

instagram @ the_watchier


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)




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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

I'm glad I picked this up.....

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> I'm glad I picked this up.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love the look. Although this is a sports watch but I find the 40mm size blends extremely well when trying to do the formal look.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

A serious question - How do you guys plan on getting your OR serviced? Some of you said since it's an ETA clone, it shouldn't be too difficult but a couple of watchmakers I've spoken to refuses to service ETA clones. Well, it's more of can't rather than won't service them. The watchmakers said that there are actually minute differences between ETA and clones; and that parts are not usually interchangeable. While ETA and other Swiss movement parts are readily available, parts for, let's say, Chinese ETA clones are not. That's why they won't take Chinese clone watches for service. Do you all expect Ginault to be around long enough to handle your service needs?


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

RNHC said:


> A serious question - How do you guys plan on getting your OR serviced? Some of you said since it's an ETA clone, it shouldn't be too difficult but a couple of watchmakers I've spoken to refuses to service ETA clones. Well, it's more of can't rather than won't service them. The watchmakers said that there are actually minute differences between ETA and clones; and that parts are not usually interchangeable. While ETA and other Swiss movement parts are readily available, parts for, let's say, Chinese ETA clones are not. That's why they won't take Chinese clone watches for service. Do you all expect Ginault to be around long enough to handle your service needs?


Replacing it with an eta will probably be cheaper than a service....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> A serious question - How do you guys plan on getting your OR serviced? Some of you said since it's an ETA clone, it shouldn't be too difficult but a couple of watchmakers I've spoken to refuses to service ETA clones. Well, it's more of can't rather than won't service them. The watchmakers said that there are actually minute differences between ETA and clones; and that parts are not usually interchangeable. While ETA and other Swiss movement parts are readily available, parts for, let's say, Chinese ETA clones are not. That's why they won't take Chinese clone watches for service. Do you all expect Ginault to be around long enough to handle your service needs?


I have never had any AD tell me that they would not service a watch that had a standard eta clone movement. So I do not consider this an issue at all. If you own a microbrand you could say the same for it. How many micro brands are gone and people still try to collect them. Redsea watches, lol.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

5661nicholas said:


> Replacing it with an eta will probably be cheaper than a service....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


+1

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

RNHC said:


> A serious question - How do you guys plan on getting your OR serviced? Some of you said since it's an ETA clone, it shouldn't be too difficult but a couple of watchmakers I've spoken to refuses to service ETA clones. Well, it's more of can't rather than won't service them. The watchmakers said that there are actually minute differences between ETA and clones; and that parts are not usually interchangeable. While ETA and other Swiss movement parts are readily available, parts for, let's say, Chinese ETA clones are not. That's why they won't take Chinese clone watches for service. Do you all expect Ginault to be around long enough to handle your service needs?


Guess it depends on what you mean by service. Just oil and regulating anyone will do... which is your typical service. If it's broken then you find someone who will work on it or replace it. This is not a Chinese clone BTW.

sent from my phone


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

[Comment deleted]


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Astropin said:


> This is not a Chinese clone BTW.


Yes, it's supposedly an American clone. You did understand the part about clones being minutely different, right? Are you implying that Ginault's clone is 1 to 1 copy with interchangeable parts?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> I have never had any AD tell me that they would not service a watch that had a standard eta clone movement.


What is a standard ETA clone? Is Sea-Gull ST2130 a standard ETA clone? Or are you referring to Sellita? Did you specifically asked AD's if they will service Sea-Gulls, Peacocks and other Chinese clone movements?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Geez, give it a rest. If movement service is someday not available (for whatever reason), it should be no problem to just swap in a new movement (made by whoever is still making movements).

Meanwhile, so far just one Ocean Rover has appeared on the sales forums. That seems indicative of a pretty high level of customer satisfaction so far.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Avo said:


> Meanwhile, so far just one Ocean Rover has appeared on the sales forums. That seems indicative of a pretty high level of customer satisfaction so far.


I have been a critic of this offering, but this is actually very impressive, and a lot more telling than the review themselves. 
Many, many times you see the positive reviews followed by a quick sale a few days later. 
Not the case here.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> What is a standard ETA clone? Is Sea-Gull ST2130 a standard ETA clone? Or are you referring to Sellita? Did you specifically asked AD's if they will service Sea-Gulls, Peacocks and other Chinese clone movements?


I own many brands including some micros. My AD's have always offered to service any watch. But if you live in a little podunk town it may be tough to find a watch repair guy. Frankly, I wouldn't think much of a service place that would not offer to service a mechanical watch. You must have some crappy service guys. I have Right Time watches and Hyde park near me and they will service anything. What is the name of your place, if you aren't BS'ing, which is a high likelihood.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> I own many brands including some micros. My AD's have always offered to service any watch. But if you live in a little podunk town it may be tough to find a watch repair guy. Frankly, I wouldn't think much of a service place that would not offer to service a mechanical watch. You must have some crappy service guys. I have Right Time watches and Hyde park near me and they will service anything. What is the name of your place, if you aren't BS'ing, which is a high likelihood.


I live in a podunk town (well, metropolitan area) of 6 million. There are only two AD's that I visit and they send out their watches. You are lucky that you have access to magical service guys who can service anything regardless of parts availability. As for your skepticism, I couldn't care less whether you choose to believe or not. Watchmaking is a dying art and there aren't that many trustworthy watchmakers around anywhere, independent or otherwise, period.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Avo said:


> If movement service is someday not available (for whatever reason), it should be no problem to just swap in a new movement (made by whoever is still making movements).


You think it's that simple, huh? Good luck with that.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

RNHC said:


> You think it's that simple, huh? Good luck with that.


Oh....please enlighten us on why it won't be, you seem like your itching to tell us!

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

5661nicholas said:


> Replacing it with an eta will probably be cheaper than a service....


How much would that cost? I am genuinely curious. I presume the total cost would include the price of the movement?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

5661nicholas said:


> Oh....please enlighten us on why it won't be, you seem like your itching to tell us!


Oh, you don't know? You should go visit other forums in WUS. WUS is a treasure trove of information. Read and be enlightened. Put in a little effort in our hobby.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

RNHC said:


> How much would that cost? I am genuinely curious. I presume the total cost would include the price of the movement?


Please refer to your previous post for my answer

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

5661nicholas said:


> Please refer to your previous post for my answer


Touché, petty but touché. :-d


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

RNHC said:


> I live in a podunk town (well, metropolitan area) of 6 million. There are only two AD's that I visit and they send out their watches. You are lucky that you have access to magical service guys who can service anything regardless of parts availability. As for your skepticism, I couldn't care less whether you choose to believe or not. Watchmaking is a dying art and there aren't that many trustworthy watchmakers around anywhere, independent or otherwise, period.


If you look around, or even start a thread asking for watch service guys around you, you will be surprised how many you will find. And they will be willing to service any watch

instagram @ the_watchier


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

the_watchier said:


> And they will be willing to service any watch


Like I've said, with the ones I've spoken to, it wasn't really a matter of willingness but ability to procure parts in case the service/repair required parts.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

If this is an eta clone one can just buy an eta and drop it in.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Seppia said:


> If this is an eta clone one can just buy an eta and drop it in.


Hopefully if the dimensions are close enough. How much does an ETA movement go for nowadays? A couple of hundred or more? Add labor and we come to at least 3 - 400 bucks total? I guess it comes down to whether it would be worth the inconvenience, time, effort, and money.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/my-movement-disposable-oh-no-what-do-i-do-3724418.html


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Hopefully if the dimensions are close enough. How much does an ETA movement go for nowadays? A couple of hundred or more? Add labor and we come to at least 3 - 400 bucks total? I guess it comes down to whether it would be worth the inconvenience, time, effort, and money.


If it's a clone, dimensions should be the same. What's the point of copying a movement if you change the dimensions?

If one thinks it's too much work he can either sell the non working Watch or toss it. 
We are talking about a $600 watch, not exactly a SS Patek.

How many watches do people actually have serviced?
I owned approximately 100 watches (give or take) and serviced three of those. All the others are either still running awesome or I flipped them before they needed service.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

According to someone in another thread the case appears designed to accept a Rolex (or Ro1ex) movement as well.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Seppia said:


> If it's a clone, dimensions should be the same. What's the point of copying a movement if you change the dimensions?


That's what I thought too until I read some of the Internet articles on clone movements. Didn't Ginault detail some of the differences in their movement from the ETA in the first page?



Seppia said:


> If one thinks it's too much work he can either sell the non working Watch or toss it.
> We are talking about a $600 watch, not exactly a SS Patek.


I guess I'm a cheapskate. $600 is $600. I don't know if I can throw away $600 watch without blinking. If I had Ocean Rover, I would want to keep my $600 (or $1300 MSRP) watch as long as I could (especially since it's really nicely made from all accounts).



Seppia said:


> How many watches do people actually have serviced?
> I owned approximately 100 watches (give or take) and serviced three of those. All the others are either still running awesome or I flipped them before they needed service.


This is a good point. I have had to service two out of my collection of twenty of so. One cost me a pretty penny for service though.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Avo said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/my-movement-disposable-oh-no-what-do-i-do-3724418.html


Great article. Docvail always seemed like a reasonable, realistic man when it comes to watches. |>


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

As long as it's to spec should be no problem. FWIW, I just had my watchmaker drop a vintage ETA 2871 in a watch designed for a 2824 and it's working just fine. No issues with hand spacing et al. A well-made ETA clone is just that.

*Note I chose the 2871 because it uses the same dial feet and hand size as the 2824. This movement family has been the same size for about 50 years so there are no issues with the movement holder.



RNHC said:


> Hopefully if the dimensions are close enough. How much does an ETA movement go for nowadays? A couple of hundred or more? Add labor and we come to at least 3 - 400 bucks total? I guess it comes down to whether it would be worth the inconvenience, time, effort, and money.


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

hanshananigan said:


> According to someone in another thread the case appears designed to accept a Rolex (or Ro1ex) movement as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


Shocking!

Not.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

***edit: for some reason my sarcasm detector was off

If true, I'd like some info on which Rolex movement it accepts. I believe Rolex movements attach directly without use of a movement ring. They're also a few mm larger in diameter. And don't forget the different dial feet and hand sizes compared to ETA.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

pinkybrain said:


> If true, I'd like some info on which Rolex movement it accepts. I believe Rolex movements attach directly without use of a movement ring. They're also a few mm larger in diameter. And don't forget the different dial feet and hand sizes compared to ETA.


Well, nobody is replacing an eta clone with a gen rolex movement, and keeping the Ginault dial... why do you suppose people sell rolex dials, gen and, erm, otherwise?

If the ginault busts and for whatever reason you cant get it serviced, stick any eta clone in there and youll be fine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

pinkybrain said:


> ***edit: for some reason my sarcasm detector was off
> 
> If true, I'd like some info on which Rolex movement it accepts. I believe Rolex movements attach directly without use of a movement ring. They're also a few mm larger in diameter. And don't forget the different dial feet and hand sizes compared to ETA.


The poster remarked on an open case back pic. Said the case had a distinctive ridge or tab that Rolex uses to twist/hold a movement in place. Sorry, don't remeber where: might have been on hwa's thread.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> I live in a podunk town (well, metropolitan area) of 6 million. There are only two AD's that I visit and they send out their watches. You are lucky that you have access to magical service guys who can service anything regardless of parts availability. As for your skepticism, I couldn't care less whether you choose to believe or not. Watchmaking is a dying art and there aren't that many trustworthy watchmakers around anywhere, independent or otherwise, period.


I live in a town half the the size of yours and I have no problem getting any watch worked on locally. I am sure there are watch makers in your town that would and could work on any watch. It's likely you haven't looked hard enough, or at all for a watchmaker that can do that since you may not have a need for it if you do not own a micro brand.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> The poster remarked on an open case back pic. Said the case had a distinctive ridge or tab that Rolex uses to twist/hold a movement in place. Sorry, don't remeber where: might have been on hwa's thread.


I did crack the back, and am told by a knowledgeable source that the movement ring is, shall we say, "distinctive." I believe, utterly without basis apart from Ginault's claim that its an ETA clone, that any 2824-based movement would drop right in. (Miyota 9015 is same ligne, but different stem height, so no to that.) Whether a rolex spec movement would fit without need of the ring, I couldn't say. But, given effort to make a 1:1 "homage," i invite those who know to chime in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I very quick search shows a new ETA 2824-2 runs about $225. You'd want to swap the pinion over from the old movement so the hand height would be correct. 

i live in a town of about 5,000 and can think of 3 watchmakers off the top of my head who could service this movement and do the movement swap if so desired.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

I've bought about five in the last year. I'm paying $185 for top grade. There are several watchmakers/repair companies that you can just send to if needed.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> I live in a town half the the size of yours and I have no problem getting any watch worked on locally.


Did you actually try to service/repair a watch with clone or Chinese movements with your magical local guys or are you just going by what they told you? It's not unheard for a watchmaker to say they can fix all watches, ask you to bring in the watch and later admit that the watch is not repairable. Until you can get your magical local guys to fix, let's say, a Chinese movement watch, saying that you "have no problem getting any watch worked on" is, as you've said, "BS'ing."



Stellite said:


> I am sure there are watch makers in your town that would and could work on any watch.


I know I mentioned it a couple of times before and start to sound like a broken record but it's less a matter of willingness but ability get parts that may be required. No matter how good a watchmaker, he can't fix your watch if he doesn't have any spare parts. I have not heard of any watchmaker willing to work on Chinese ETA clones. I don't see how Ginault clone would be treated any differently. As Docvail said, it'd be cheaper to replace if replaceable.



Stellite said:


> It's likely you haven't looked hard enough, or at all for a watchmaker that can do that since you may not have a need for it if you do not own a micro brand.


I do have a watchmaker who is not local that I'm happy with. Owning a microbrand watch has little to do with serviceability since they usually use movements from widely known and available sources, i.e., Miyota. So repair/replace of a movement of a typical microbrand shouldn't be too hard. As far as I know, Ginault is the only microbrand that claims to "manufacture" its own ETA clone.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> Did you actually try to service/repair a watch with clone or Chinese movements with your magical local guys or are you just going by what they told you? It's not unheard for a watchmaker to say they can fix all watches, ask you to bring in the watch and later admit that the watch is not repairable. Until you can get your magical local guys to fix, let's say, a Chinese movement watch, saying that you "have no problem getting any watch worked on" is, as you've said, "BS'ing."
> 
> I know I mentioned it a couple of times before and start to sound like a broken record but it's less a matter of willingness but ability get parts that may be required. No matter how good a watchmaker, he can't fix your watch if he doesn't have any spare parts. I have not heard of any watchmaker willing to work on Chinese ETA clones. I don't see how Ginault clone would be treated any differently. As Docvail said, it'd be cheaper to replace if replaceable.
> 
> I do have a watchmaker who is not local that I'm happy with. Owning a microbrand watch has little to do with serviceability since they usually use movements from widely known and available sources, i.e., Miyota. So repair/replace of a movement of a typical microbrand shouldn't be too hard. As far as I know, Ginault is the only microbrand that claims to "manufacture" its own ETA clone.


I understand you do not like this watch but this particular argument you raise has little basis in reality.

This is a good read for those interested. https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html
For the TL/DR crowd, to quote Lysanderxiii: "Going over the pictures and examining the parts, I can say with very good confidence, that any replacement part for an ETA 2824-2 will fit and work in either of these two movements.

This is great news. Now, for the first time, there is a Chinese made movement with a source of spares, as Bestfit has any ETA 2824 part you could possibly need."

I would expect there are few, if any, completely custom parts in the Ginault 2824-2 movement. They admit it is a copy of the ETA 2824-2 with the only differences being the higher pinion (H4 versus the more common H2) and the use of the Chinese design anti-shock system. Their biggest claim is that the movement itself was manufactured in the USA - not that there was any design innovation.

An independent watchmaker who can service a 2824-2 can service the Ginault 2824-2. Assembly and disassembly is the same. Oiling is the same. Cleaning is the same. Springs are the same. There is nothing new or unique to the movement that would cause a watchmaker any difficulty from what I can see.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> I understand you do not like this watch but this particular argument you raise has little basis in reality.
> 
> This is a good read for those interested. https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/how-do-seagull-hangzhou-compare-eta-depth-look-216945.html
> For the TL/DR crowd, to quote Lysanderxiii: "Going over the pictures and examining the parts, I can say with very good confidence, that any replacement part for an ETA 2824-2 will fit and work in either of these two movements.
> ...


I stand corrected. After reading some of the Internet articles on differences between clones and ETA, it sounded like parts were NOT interchangeable. I still wonder, if parts are interchangeable, why wouldn't watchmakers touch Chinese ETA clones?


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

RNHC said:


> I stand corrected. After reading some of the Internet articles on differences between clones and ETA, it sounded like parts were NOT interchangeable. I still wonder, if parts are interchangeable, why wouldn't watchmakers touch Chinese ETA clones?


They may have signed a contract restricting what they can replace a damaged movement with and also not allowing work on "cloned" movements. If they want to keep their job they follow their contract. An independent would probably do whatever you're willing to pay for (with caveats).


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## Sylafari (Feb 2, 2014)

So much talk about things that aren't specifically about the watch, so I'm going to get it back on track!









I've had the watch about for a week now and it probably is my favorite watch out of all the watches I own currently (though I don't own anything that expensive).

The accuracy of the watch is impeccable as through 5 days I'm at about +2 sec (based on a comparison to time.is).

I'll have a review up about it with some comparisons to the other watches I own to talk about build quality and other things.

PS: Seems like the discount code is dead so from here on out full MSRP?


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> Did you actually try to service/repair a watch with clone or Chinese movements with your magical local guys or are you just going by what they told you? It's not unheard for a watchmaker to say they can fix all watches, ask you to bring in the watch and later admit that the watch is not repairable. Until you can get your magical local guys to fix, let's say, a Chinese movement watch, saying that you "have no problem getting any watch worked on" is, as you've said, "BS'ing."
> 
> I know I mentioned it a couple of times before and start to sound like a broken record but it's less a matter of willingness but ability get parts that may be required. No matter how good a watchmaker, he can't fix your watch if he doesn't have any spare parts. I have not heard of any watchmaker willing to work on Chinese ETA clones. I don't see how Ginault clone would be treated any differently. As Docvail said, it'd be cheaper to replace if replaceable.
> 
> I do have a watchmaker who is not local that I'm happy with. Owning a microbrand watch has little to do with serviceability since they usually use movements from widely known and available sources, i.e., Miyota. So repair/replace of a movement of a typical microbrand shouldn't be too hard. As far as I know, Ginault is the only microbrand that claims to "manufacture" its own ETA clone.


Yes, I have had them work on some very rare movements and some very old ones. I am not talking just one place either. Several places in town. I am sure I could fine one in your town, so yeah, I think it's BS. put the name of your city out, lets see.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Astropin said:


> They may have signed a contract restricting what they can replace a damaged movement with and also not allowing work on "cloned" movements. If they want to keep their job they follow their contract. An independent would probably do whatever you're willing to pay for (with caveats).


From my experience, I think time vs cost is alot of the issue. Why work on any clone when it can just be replaced? As a watchmaker you have to strip down just as much on a clone ETA as a Swiss ETA. It's hardly worth it to strip and repair a Swiss ETA when you can get a new one for less than $200. I had the ETA rebuilt on my vintage Tudor and it cost me over $500. I did that because of a value play on an original watch that's almost 50 years old.

How much do you think it'll cost to rebuild a $90 clone movement? Probably more than the watch it came in. All that does for the watchmaker is build ill will because the customer would fell like they're getting ripped off.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> From my experience, I think time vs cost is alot of the issue. Why work on any clone when it can just be replaced? As a watchmaker you have to strip down just as much on a clone ETA as a Swiss ETA. It's hardly worth it to strip and repair a Swiss ETA when you can get a new one for less than $200. I had the ETA rebuilt on my vintage Tudor and it cost me over $500. I did that because of a value play on an original watch that's almost 50 years old.
> 
> How much do you think it'll cost to rebuild a $90 clone movement? Probably more than the watch it came in. All that does for the watchmaker is build ill will because the customer would fell like they're getting ripped off.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Boom. Nailed it! There you go. If it's replaceable by any old $90 clone, it's not worth the $1300 ask, even if it's worth the $580 discount or whatever they're discounting for these days.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> Yes, I have had them work on some very rare movements and some very old ones. I am not talking just one place either. Several places in town. I am sure I could fine one in your town, so yeah, I think it's BS. put the name of your city out, lets see.


You are lucky. I live near docvail in Philadelphia suburbs. If you read the post/article linked by Avo, you would learn that docvail (who is in the watch business) found only one watchmaker he trusts. I may be putting words in his mouth but it seemed like he had some difficulty finding a right watchmaker despite being in the business. Like I've said I do have a watchmaker I'm happy with but I'd be glad to take a name from you. Do your thing, hoss.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> Boom. Nailed it! There you go. If it's replaceable by any old $90 clone, it's not worth the $1300 ask, even if it's worth the $580 discount or whatever they're discounting for these days.


You are going to confuse and confound people if you use logic. :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Astropin said:


> They may have signed a contract restricting what they can replace a damaged movement with and also not allowing work on "cloned" movements. If they want to keep their job they follow their contract. An independent would probably do whatever you're willing to pay for (with caveats).


That may be true for ADs but I was referring to independent watchmakers when I said watchmakers refuse to touch Chinese clones.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And an ETA can be had for less than $200. So the difference in (speculated) value on movement alone would be around $100. And that assumes the valuation of the Ginault movement is only $90. Difficult to quantify it being valued comparably to a mass-produced 9015. An argument that also completely disregards the balance of the watch and finishing. Besides, individuals with good knowledge of ETA clones have alreadu stated that it does not look Chinese in origin.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> An independent watchmaker who can service a 2824-2 can service the Ginault 2824-2. Assembly and disassembly is the same. Oiling is the same. Cleaning is the same. Springs are the same. There is nothing new or unique to the movement that would cause a watchmaker any difficulty from what I can see.


Seems you just undermined Ginault claimed "specialness" with its specially developed copper alloy and all. :-d


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

hwa said:


> Boom. Nailed it! There you go. If it's replaceable by any old $90 clone, it's not worth the $1300 ask, even if it's worth the $580 discount or whatever they're discounting for these days.


Disagree, so Boom, didn't nail it. Absolutely the most illogical theory. Basically, I could push that argument one step further and say that no microbrand is worth it because none of them have provenance, and to include your aether or your nth naken. They have as much provenance as nothing. So, you might as well throw both of those away.

I love the hypocrisy of those that have their totally unknown brands but try to denigrate another unknown brand. lol.

I bet you can sell your ginault faster than the other two you have there.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> Disagree, so Boom, didn't nail it. Absolutely the most illogical theory. Basically, I could push that argument one step further and say that no microbrand is worth it because none of them have provenance, and to include your aether or your nth naken. They have as much provenance as nothing. So, you might as well throw both of those away.
> 
> I love the hypocrisy of those that have their totally unknown brands but try to denigrate another unknown brand. lol.
> 
> I bet you can sell your ginault faster than the other two you have there.


What do you mean provenance? If one equates "provenance" with track record or reputation of the builder, NTH Nacken has it all over Ginault and their preposterous claims, suspect origins, and uncommunicative management that doesn't answer any questions in its own thread that was started by them! I will give you Aether though. I've never heard of them. :-d

P.s. Just looked up Aether. I don't know who Benzinger guy is but it's a German microbrand with classic retro looking watches. Uses genuine ETA movement with nice decorations. Not my cup of tea but not too shabby at all.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> What do you mean provenance? If one equates "provenance" with track record or reputation of the builder, Nth Naken has it all over Ginault and their preposterous claims, suspect origins, and uncommunicative management that doesn't answer any questions in its own thread that was started by them! I will give you Aether though. I've never heard of them. :-d


Just remember we WIS are a microcosm. We are not the real world. I can guarantee you that no one outside of us knows nth. Not even AD's know it. Guaranteed. I can go to Hyde park tomorrow and ask them and they will say "who?" Betteridge will as well and even right time who has micro's will not know it. To me NTH has nothing over Ginault. In fact, I am betting that it will be the other way around in a year. But I guess time will tell.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> If it's replaceable by any old $90 clone


Any 2824, even a top-grade COSC one, is "replaceable by any old $90 clone" in the sense that you can put one in the case and fit the hands.

Meanwhile, there is zero evidence that ETA replacements parts couldn't be used in the Ginault movement. Zero, zip, nada, none.

This is an absolute non-issue, IMO.


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## Strmwatch (Mar 1, 2016)

I see the usual suspects are back once again bashing this watch and company.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Stellite said:


> Disagree, so Boom, didn't nail it. Absolutely the most illogical theory. Basically, I could push that argument one step further and say that no microbrand is worth it because none of them have provenance, and to include your aether or your nth naken. They have as much provenance as nothing. So, you might as well throw both of those away.
> 
> I love the hypocrisy of those that have their totally unknown brands but try to denigrate another unknown brand. lol.
> 
> I bet you can sell your ginault faster than the other two you have there.


I don't even know what you're saying, but that makes two of us. Aether is a US company that tried to make a go of assembling german cases, swiss movements, and dials they designed and had built I don't know where. They don't claim any special provenance, and for what it's worth (that being substantially less than I paid early in my foray into this money pit), most folks won't pay a penny for hand-wind mechanical movements.

But what's your point? That Ginault, at an MSRP of 1300 is better quality or value than an NTH at an MSRP of 600? That's so dim that it's not worth switching on that light. I mean, seriously, duh.

Take comfort in your copy; the Aether is at least a beautifully rendered small-seconds dial, and the NTH actually offers design points of its own. The Ginault offers very good quality with zero design points. For that reason, it's effin' boring. I bought it to see what the movement was about, and while you sycophants keep on sycophanting, Ginault remains flat silent, other than to repeat its occasional promise of pulling back the drapes. Take another hit, kiddo, and let me know when the smoke clears. Yeah, some of us keep saying the Emperor is wearing no clothes, but only because this echo chamber keeps getting filled with nonsense.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I like the Ginault's design. I like the various elements that they chose to mash up. I think the quality of the case, bracelet, dial, and (especially!) the crystal is superb. If I lost mine, and a discount was not available, I would pay MSRP to replace it.

I don't like the NTH designs. Any of them. I passed on the pre-order when you could get one for $400.

I'm not especially fond of any existing Rolex sub. I don't like the Mercedes hand. I hate the fat Sub-C case. There is absolutely no way I would pay thousands for any of them.

So: value is different for each of us. Please stop with the blanket one-size-fits-all value statements. They are simply not valid.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Seems you just undermined Ginault claimed "specialness" with its specially developed copper alloy and all.


You are wrong again, confusing quality of the material used by Ginault with design of parts.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

hwa said:


> ...../But what's your point? That Ginault, at an MSRP of 1300 is better quality or value than an NTH at an MSRP of 600? That's so dim that it's not worth switching on that light. I mean, seriously, duh./....


NTH at 600 is way overpriced You could get two Armida for one NTH, and qualitywise they are identical since they come from the same place.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

RNHC said:


> What do you mean provenance? If one equates "provenance" with track record or reputation of the builder, NTH Nacken has it all over Ginault and their preposterous claims, suspect origins, and uncommunicative management that doesn't answer any questions in its own thread that was started by them!/.....


DocVail designed the NTH, and had the watches build in China then where is the builder's reputation there?

About design points, I would give negative points to the NTH case design for defacing the almost perfect balance of the early Submariner case.

Ginault claims no design points others than matching the defunct classic Submariner in looks and felt quality.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Wow seems like the NTH supporters are back for another round of page building. What did Ginault do that pissed off those other micro brands supporters so much?


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> I don't even know what you're saying, but that makes two of us. Aether is a US company that tried to make a go of assembling german cases, swiss movements, and dials they designed and had built I don't know where. They don't claim any special provenance, and for what it's worth (that being substantially less than I paid early in my foray into this money pit), most folks won't pay a penny for hand-wind mechanical movements.
> 
> But what's your point? That Ginault, at an MSRP of 1300 is better quality or value than an NTH at an MSRP of 600? That's so dim that it's not worth switching on that light. I mean, seriously, duh.
> 
> Take comfort in your copy; the Aether is at least a beautifully rendered small-seconds dial, and the NTH actually offers design points of its own. The Ginault offers very good quality with zero design points. For that reason, it's effin' boring. I bought it to see what the movement was about, and while you sycophants keep on sycophanting, Ginault remains flat silent, other than to repeat its occasional promise of pulling back the drapes. Take another hit, kiddo, and let me know when the smoke clears. Yeah, some of us keep saying the Emperor is wearing no clothes, but only because this echo chamber keeps getting filled with nonsense.


I agree. I liked the comparison you wrote for the OR vs Rolex 16610. The OR definitely showed its value through the cost/performance ratio.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Correct me if I am wrong. Many major Swiss brands like Omega, Longines, and IWC.....used ETA movements back in the days. Some didn't even bother to do in house upgrade/mods on the movements and were still charging them at the 2k price range back in the days. And those can also be replaced with a $90 clone right?


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

kelt said:


> NTH at 600 is way overpriced You could get two Armida for one NTH, and qualitywise they are identical since they come from the same place.


For my own understanding... NTH and Armida parts and assembly are done in tthe same factory (ies)? Using the same materials and QC?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mf1tym said:


> Wow seems like the NTH supporters are back for another round of page building. What did Ginault do that pissed off those other micro brands supports so much?


It appears so. Here I was trying to correct a clearly ignorant comment when in truth it is just a bunch of meaningless crying. "The watch isn't worth $1,300 because the movement can be replaced $90" argument is pointless. I guess Gen 1 Tudor Black Bays and Pelagos aren't worth anything. Nor are my CREPAS divers. The argument is so plainly ignorant I would be ashamed to post it.

If you like NTH, great. Buy one and enjoy it.

Trying to to tear down the Ginault by posting ignorant arguments will not make the NTH anything more than what it is, an inexpensive, Sub-inspired, made in China, watch.

The fact these few NTH fans are so focused on the Ginault bashing makes me more suspicious of the NTH brand than anything I have dug up on Ginault.

Here is a no cost PSA: if you are in the market for an inexpensive Sub inspired watch, buy a Scurfa.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> It appears so. Here I was trying to correct a clearly ignorant comment when in truth it is just a bunch of meaningless crying. "The watch isn't worth $1,300 because the movement can be replaced $90" argument is pointless. I guess Gen 1 Tudor Black Bays and Pelagos aren't worth anything. Nor are my CREPAS divers. The argument is so plainly ignorant I would be ashamed to post it.
> 
> If you like NTH, great. Buy one and enjoy it.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. The *reputed *value of the movement is an illogical argument at best. It's just another round of whining from the same members who clearly cannot let this go.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. I'm only writing this because it seems some of you are pointing at me. I'll remind you that I'm the guy who compared an NTH to an OWC and a SMP (three blue divers, which I compared because ... blue), but I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH. I compared the Ginault to a 16610. For what it's worth, the Ginault and the NTH Ampion/Amphion Vintage have some small similarity, but they're totally different. The NTH is an homage that is not trying to be a 1:1 replica, whereas the Ginault plainly is trying to be a 1:1, notwithstanding its choice to mashup a variety of Rolex looks. The case is a 16610. I would never tell someone looking for an NTH to buy a Ginault, or someone looking for a Rolex copy to buy an NTH. That would be stupid. So put away the straw-men already.

The movement argument is a closer one. Still, I don't get the pushback. If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be. It hardly need be said that people pay a premium for in-house movements--whether that money is well-spent is a separate issue. The fact is, in-house movements have cachet, typical ETA clones not only don't have cachet, they are largely forgettable or derided. Ginault wants credit for something better than an asian clone, and my point is that until there's some substantiation for its claims--which dare I say Ginault STILL has not provided--there's no substantive reason for believing the Ginault is running anything better than a typical ETA clone. Don't give me any of this jazz about performance over a week. That's not a track record, not yet anyway. Maybe all this will sort itself out, but in the meantime, there's no good reason to think it's any better than your basic, run-of-the-mill ETA, which you can get in a Steinhart for, what is it now, under $400? Why is that not relevant, and what is wrong with pointing that out to people who come to WUS for information about watches, not just to slobber on digital images of watches that can be seen elsewhere. Nothing wrong with pics, but there's nothing wrong with open, honest debate about the offering, either.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

My Ginault is less than 3 minutes fast over the total of the past month I have owned the watch. That means it is averaging +5 per day and that includes skiing, snow-blowing, and some days just sitting in my watch box as I wear another watch. It has not been reset or even had the crown pulled out since receiving the watch in early January. This performance is better than any "average" ETA 2824-2. Maybe I'm just lucky.

You brought up the argument suggesting a $1,300 watch should not have a $100 movement in it. I believe your argument is foolish and I can name any number of micros and majors which suggest otherwise. In my opinion, a watch is worth more than the cost of the movement. If you said for $1,300, you'd be looking at the vintage-inspired Oris 42, I'd agree with you, but guess what? It runs an ETA 2824-2 clone movement as well.

If you think a Ginault is expensive for a mash-up of Rolex inspired design themes (16610 case, 5517 hands, gloss dial with maxi plots - kind of LV-ish, but in a no-date style) then you'll really love the Tempus Machina:








It is a 16610 inspired case with no crown guards and a kind of 6538 design. Heck, it'll only cost you $25,000.

Here is really my point in making a response:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of watches introduced and posted about on WUS that I don't care for. I don't go posting negative and pointless arguments about the watches I don't like. I usually say nothing at all.

The fact that you and a handful of others feel compelled to continually post negative comments on this thread, to the point of being reprimanded and even banned, makes me believe there is a deeper play at hand here.

In my near decade participating on WUS, I've seen shill reviews to pump up some watch. I've seen vendors set up false user names to post false praise on their products.

Maybe I am just being overly suspicious, but maybe this is just someone's desire to take guerrilla marketing in a different direction.

If you like the Ginault, buy one. If you like NTH, buy one.

If you are worried about future service of a non ETA movement or concerned about the value of a $1,300 watch with a $150 movement, start a new thread. This isn't the place for those discussions.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. I'm only writing this because it seems some of you are pointing at me. I'll remind you that I'm the guy who compared an NTH to an OWC and a SMP (three blue divers, which I compared because ... blue), but I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH. I compared the Ginault to a 16610. For what it's worth, the Ginault and the NTH Ampion/Amphion Vintage have some small similarity, but they're totally different. The NTH is an homage that is not trying to be a 1:1 replica, whereas the Ginault plainly is trying to be a 1:1, notwithstanding its choice to mashup a variety of Rolex looks. The case is a 16610. I would never tell someone looking for an NTH to buy a Ginault, or someone looking for a Rolex copy to buy an NTH. That would be stupid. So put away the straw-men already.
> 
> The movement argument is a closer one. Still, I don't get the pushback. If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be. It hardly need be said that people pay a premium for in-house movements--whether that money is well-spent is a separate issue. The fact is, in-house movements have cachet, typical ETA clones not only don't have cachet, they are largely forgettable or derided. Ginault wants credit for something better than an asian clone, and my point is that until there's some substantiation for its claims--which dare I say Ginault STILL has not provided--there's no substantive reason for believing the Ginault is running anything better than a typical ETA clone. Don't give me any of this jazz about performance over a week. That's not a track record, not yet anyway. Maybe all this will sort itself out, but in the meantime, there's no good reason to think it's any better than your basic, run-of-the-mill ETA, which you can get in a Steinhart for, what is it now, under $400? Why is that not relevant, and what is wrong with pointing that out to people who come to WUS for information about watches, not just to slobber on digital images of watches that can be seen elsewhere. Nothing wrong with pics, but there's nothing wrong with open, honest debate about the offering, either.


Very true. NTH and Ginault are not of the same breed. The review you did on the Rover vs 16610 is well balanced and respected.

I also agree with you on the notion of their movements. Right now we only know that it works well but does not mean it is a proven track record yet.

In my humble opinion I would think the justification of Ginault's $1,300 price tag is not just because of their 2824 clone but rather the over all workmanship and quality on each part. Just look at the mid case by it self. I'd have to say that thing alone is very amazing with all the fine details. Many of the finer details of the OR which I am slowly picking up over the past weeks while wearing it are probably lost on many members. People probably view value and quality more on weather or not the bezel insert is ceramic or aluminum, if the insert is lumed or not rather than these fine details that probably would take years of skills to master.

An analogy I'd like to make is in the world of bicycles. Most people would automatically think carbon frames trumps aluminum frames any day of the week in terms of performance and value. However a well designed and executed aluminum frame is actually way better than any 2nd rated carbon frames out there on the market. But many cyclers would fall into that marketing trap regardless.

So it is kind of sad to see that many of these things that went into the OR are not perceived as justification for the asking price.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> I don't even get the NTH thing. Who brought up NTH as a knock against Ginault? What's one got to do with the other? This is just a fabricated misdirection. ... I did NOT compare the Ginault to an NTH.


Um, actually you did:



hwa said:


> But what's your point? That Ginault, at an MSRP of 1300 is better quality or value than an NTH at an MSRP of 600? That's so dim that it's not worth switching on that light. I mean, seriously, duh.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> If the justification for the 1300 price tag is an in-house, built in America super clone ETA-based movement, then that's what it should be.


That's not the justification in my mind. For me, it's the whole package: quality of case, bracelet, dial, indices, lume, crystal, and the five-week, five-point individual adjustment of each movement. In my sample, it's resulted in an on-wrist performance that is better than +1 s/day, and has been rock-solid over 3+ weeks. Every other 2824 I've ever had has moved noticeably over the same time period.

So for me, the claim that the movement has largely USA-made parts is kind of irrelevant. I don't really care. It's not what I like about the watch.

I get that there are people who might care more than I do about the provenance of the movement, and that such people are disappointed that Ginault has not been more forthcoming.

But no other watch company has either. Who supplies the American parts for the Weiss movement? Do you know? Do you think Cameron Weiss will tell you? Try asking him. No watch company gives out that kind of info publicly.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Avo said:


> That's not the justification in my mind. For me, it's the whole package: quality of case, bracelet, dial, indices, lume, crystal, and the five-week, five-point individual adjustment of each movement. In my sample, it's resulted in an on-wrist performance that is better than +1 s/day, and has been rock-solid over 3+ weeks. Every other 2824 I've ever had has moved noticeably over the same time period.
> 
> So for me, the claim that the movement has largely USA-made parts is kind of irrelevant. I don't really care. It's not what I like about the watch.
> 
> ...


Someone suggested that parts sourcing in the USA would make a good topic for another thread and by crackie, consider it done.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/parts-sourcing-more-less-made-usa-watches-4030770.html#post38517610


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Hah! Glimpses! (Its totally therapeutic, by the way.)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was the one who made the hypothetical statement that the unusually determined (to the point of reprimand and banning) negativity towards this brand could be a form of "negative shilling" / guerrilla marketing.

This hypothetical conclusion is actually much more complimentary to those posters than other potential conclusions which spring to mind.

Repeating a negative sentiment ad nauseam does not make it valid. In my opinion, it actually reduces the potential veracity of the claim and make one wonder about ulterior motives.

If you feel you did not get what you paid for in the Ginault, and you are obviously unable to return it due to having worn the watch, I would suggest you sell it and put the entire experience behind you. I've already had an unsolicited offer to purchase my example (which I politely declined). This is the first time this has happened to me on a non-limited edition watch. I have no doubts you could sell your example very quickly.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

"In my opinion, it actually reduces the potential veracity of the claim and make one wonder about ulterior motives."

+1


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Yes, I see. So, if i have this right, repeating negative statements reduces the veracity of the claim and suggests ulterior motives, whereas repeating positive statements does not reduce the veracity of the claim or suggest ulterior motives? Literally, what you wrote, @ryeguy, was followed immediately by @radar1's direct quote, with a "+1". Double standard, incarnate.

I don't think I understand why some are so threatened by my legitimate questions. Does it bother you that I have the watch still, and that I, too, politely declined a purchase offer? It must make you crazy that I repeatedly confirm the quality of the build and value at the pricepoint. It must really make you nuts that I don't mind saying that I think it's better build quality that the Damasko and OWC at the same MSRP, movement questions aside. Yet, what I say is so odious that you can't just let it go without taking a shot at me. Fire away.

Without freedom of speech, we'd all be in the swamp.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

hwa said:


> ...../ I have the watch still, and that I, too, politely declined a purchase offer?/...
> 
> ..../ I repeatedly confirm the quality of the build and value at the pricepoint. /...
> 
> ..../ I don't mind saying that I think it's better build quality that the Damasko and OWC/.....


+1


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *hwa*_...../ I have the watch still, and that I, too, politely declined a purchase offer?/...
> 
> ..../ I repeatedly confirm the quality of the build and value at the pricepoint. /...
> 
> ...


I know a guy who will buy it off you for $500. Pakalolo, where are you bra? :-d


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Two new video reviews just out:

SDGenius: 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/gina...-pt-1-un-boxing-general-overview-4050642.html

Watchreport:
https://www.watchreport.com/ginault-ocean-rover-watch-review/

Also a write-up and lots of pics at the latter. One key quote:


> So what is the quality like? Crazy good. Yep, I said crazy good. It is the best sub homage I have ever held in my hands. The construction, the case finishing, the dial work is all well above most microbrand watches. Honestly, it makes a Steinhart look cheap.


----------



## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Avo said:


> Two new video reviews just out:
> 
> SDGenius:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-%96-ocean-rover-review-pt-1-un-boxing-general-overview-4050642.html
> ...


Great reviews that mirror my opinion of the watch. Here it is in youtube, better link


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

RNHC said:


> Seems you just undermined Ginault claimed "specialness" with its specially developed copper alloy and all. :-d





kelt said:


> You are wrong again, confusing quality of the material used by Ginault with design of parts.


What the heck are you blabbering about? Ginault claims Ocean Rover is "special" because among other things, it uses special copper alloy Ginault developed, i.e. quality of the material. Who said anything about design of parts? The movement is ETA copy. The case is Rolex copy. The bracelet is GlideLock copy. There is nothing "special" about design of Ocean Rover's parts. Am I confused or are you? :roll:


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> Just remember we WIS are a microcosm. We are not the real world. I can guarantee you that no one outside of us knows nth. Not even AD's know it. Guaranteed. I can go to Hyde park tomorrow and ask them and they will say "who?" Betteridge will as well and even right time who has micro's will not know it. To me NTH has nothing over Ginault. In fact, I am betting that it will be the other way around in a year. But I guess time will tell.


I don't know what brought on the _non sequitur_ about nobody cares in the real world rumination but, of course, we are talking in context of WIS. We are exchanging views in WUS, aren't we? Did you find me a watchmaker yet, stellite? You made it sound like it would a slam dunk for you. Get me references if you can. Thanks, buddy.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

kelt said:


> DocVail designed the NTH, and had the watches build in China then where is the builder's reputation there?
> 
> About design points, I would give negative points to the NTH case design for defacing the almost perfect balance of the early Submariner case.
> 
> Ginault claims no design points others than matching the defunct classic Submariner in looks and felt quality.


The brand is the word you are looking for. As you know, almost all microbrand watches are built in China. Are you questioning all the microbrands' reputation? But I digress. The brand's reputation is built on initial quality of the product, longevity of existence, and post-sale service qualities such responsiveness. By those measures, docvail's brand got it all over Ginault. Oh, yeah. Regular interaction with the customer base by the owner of the brand doesn't hurt either - especially in the thread started by the brand. :roll:

If you want to talk about design, look up what "homage" really means in design sense. Then look up "copy." Which do you think has more originality?


----------



## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Wow seems like the NTH supporters are back for another round of page building. What did Ginault do that pissed off those other micro brands supporters so much?


Where did this come from?  Say something not negative about a brand and automatically becomes a supporter? I said Ocean Rover seems nicely built. Does that make me a Ginault supporter? You seem to be grasping for something but I can't tell why or what you are grasping for.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> Trying to to tear down the Ginault by posting ignorant arguments will not make the NTH anything more than what it is, an inexpensive, Sub-inspired, made in China, watch.
> 
> The fact these few NTH fans are so focused on the Ginault bashing makes me more suspicious of the NTH brand than anything I have dug up on Ginault.


How did questioners (not even critics) of Ginault turn into NTH fans all of a sudden? :think: Because NTH was used in comparison? How does that make NTH anti-Ginault? You and mf1tym are sure funny... not ha-ha funny though, unfortunately.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

I can see the distasteful & childish posts resurfacing in this thread......and that's unfortunate. It's a shame adults enjoying the same hobby can't tastefully discuss and respect others opinions.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Avo said:


> Meanwhile, there is zero evidence that ETA replacements parts couldn't be used in the Ginault movement. Zero, zip, nada, none.


And there is zero evidence that ETA replacements parts could be used in the Ginault movement either. Only possibility is acknowledged based on jtragic's words. There is no definitive proof. Since most, if not all, watchmakers don't touch ETA clones for whatever reason, you'd most likely have to replace the entire movement with ETA or equivalent clone, assuming Ginault not being able to service its products, of course.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

5661nicholas said:


> I can see the distasteful & childish posts resurfacing in this thread......and that's unfortunate. It's a shame adults enjoying the same hobby can't tastefully discuss and respect others opinions.


How so? How is requesting clarifications on opinions expressed distasteful and childish? Is making snide, condescending comment tastefully discussing and respecting others' opinions? :-s


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> How so? How is requesting clarifications on opinions expressed distasteful and childish? Is making snide, condescending comment tastefully discussing and respecting others' opinions? :-s


You have made 8 posts in this thread in the last hour alone. Maybe time for another time out?

When someone is this unreasonably focused on something, I really start losing interest in their thoughts and opinions.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

RNHC said:


> How so? How is requesting clarifications on opinions expressed distasteful and childish? Is making snide, condescending comment tastefully discussing and respecting others' opinions? :-s


You seem awfully defensive.....I didn't single you out, a general statement. However, if you cannot recognize that a lot of posts in this thread are argumentative, confrontational, or over the top, you simply lack awareness. I can't fault you for that, not everyone has it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Stellite said:


> Great reviews that mirror my opinion of the watch. Here it is in youtube, better link


Thanks for posting the direct links.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And more stellar reviews of the watch. Good to see.


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

I have a question for all owners, has anyone had success removing the half link? If I take mine out, the next link won't properly attach to the link that is attached to the clasp.....thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

5661nicholas said:


> I have a question for all owners, has anyone had success removing the half link? If I take mine out, the next link won't properly attach to the link that is attached to the clasp.....thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another review (Don? Firemonk3y?) mentioned they also struggled with the half link. You are looking at the link normally buried under the clasp which is secured to the glide section, correct?

If so, then sorry, I cannot help you. I removed two whole links.

As a side note, I would recommend using thread locker on the screws you remove. I caught the screw closest to the flip lock side of the clasp trying to back out on me after about a week of wear. It had backed out to the point where I could not open the clasp.

Just a good habit to get into. I have a ton of Seiko's using pin and collar secured bracelets, so I obviously sometimes forget.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

5661nicholas said:


> I have a question for all owners, has anyone had success removing the half link? If I take mine out, the next link won't properly attach to the link that is attached to the clasp.....thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am a bit confused. I two half links on mine are attached to the glidelock clasp, and I don't think they are suppose to be removed. Or are we talking about different half links?


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## 5661nicholas (Dec 18, 2008)

mf1tym said:


> I am a bit confused. I two half links on mine are attached to the glidelock clasp, and I don't think they are suppose to be removed. Or are we talking about different half links?


It seems to me one half link on the glide lock side should be removable.....apparently I am wrong. Thank you!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

RNHC said:


> This message is hidden because RNHC is on your ignore list.


Bliss!


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

5661nicholas said:


> I have a question for all owners, has anyone had success removing the half link? If I take mine out, the next link won't properly attach to the link that is attached to the clasp.....thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Same boat. The clasp is the weakest point for several reasons, the half-link being one. Of the 3 I've had, one also had a dent in the clasp:








(photo credit *mb8780*)

I've not yet published a review, but at risk of spoilers, my conclusions after several weeks of near-daily wear:


This watch is cheeky as hell :-d 
This watch is good enough to be cheeky as hell :-! 
:-d:-d:-d

It would be worth the discounted ask with a throwaway 2824-2 clone, and it IS worth the ask with the movement it comes with... whatever its origins.

Regarding the speculation about watchmaker reactions, a German owner took his to a pro (https://uhrforum.de/der-ginault-ocean-rover-181070gsln-t292614-3#post3415500):









The Bergeon die for the Rolex fits the case exactly:









Watchmaker asked if it was ETA or Sellita, but did not feel the movement included any Chinese "nonsense"















(all pics credit *Finlay 1*/Sascha)

Pls correct my poor comprehension of German if required, but I understand his watchmaker was very impressed with the whole watch, and would have no issues working on this movement. :-!

While I'm no watchmaker, I can fix a 2824 keyless in minutes, but would refuse to do so on a Chinese movement, unless the owner jumped for Swiss keyless replacement parts (which when bought individually would cost as much as the Chinese clone). Saying some watchmaker refused to fix some Chinese ETA clone with some issue is not an indictment of the Ginault movement, especially when a professional looking closely at a Ginault movement says otherwise. :roll:

Finally, as I noted about *hwa*'s open caseback pic, the Ginault case has turn-to-remove Rolex mounts and appears to accept a 3135 Rolex movement without the ring. This movement ring would similarly allow you to drop a 2824-2 into a Rolex case. These rings exist mostly for high-end fake watches, with which the Ginault may share some parts and supply chain.

Should we care? :think:

We can only vote with our wallets. I won't buy fakes and I won't buy crap. Whatever the past lives of the people or parts, this watch is up with the best quality I've seen, and I'm happy to encourage Ginault in this direction:









:-!


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## Crezo (Apr 3, 2012)

NeedAG said:


> Same boat. The clasp is the weakest point for several reasons, the half-link being one. Of the 3 I've had, one also had a dent in the clasp:
> 
> View attachment 10900210
> 
> ...


I've mainly been checking in here every few weeks to see if the childish bickering has ended, apparently not 

However it's great to finally see the movement and read a watchmakers review. Great stuff.

Let the slanging re-commence 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

New Protos dropping and available for purchase:

180165c1ln








180260gsln


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> I don't know what brought on the _non sequitur_ about nobody cares in the real world rumination but, of course, we are talking in context of WIS. We are exchanging views in WUS, aren't we? Did you find me a watchmaker yet, stellite? You made it sound like it would a slam dunk for you. Get me references if you can. Thanks, buddy.


I did not see where you told me what city you lived in? I am sure I can find one.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> You have made 8 posts in this thread in the last hour alone. Maybe time for another time out?
> 
> When someone is this unreasonably focused on something, I really start losing interest in their thoughts and opinions.


I've been crazy busy lately and had to cram in posts when I could. Didn't mean to flood the thread. ;-)


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite said:


> I did not see where you told me what city you lived in? I am sure I can find one.


Oops, sorry about that. I thought I had. I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I am actually serious about finding a decent watchmaker locally so I don't have to mail out my watches. Truly, thanks for your help. :-!


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

kelt said:


> Bliss!


You are hurting my feelings. :-( :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

5661nicholas said:


> You seem awfully defensive.....I didn't single you out, a general statement. However, if you cannot recognize that a lot of posts in this thread are argumentative, confrontational, or over the top, you simply lack awareness. I can't fault you for that, not everyone has it.


Oh, the irony. Sure, whatever you say. Projection is a wonderful debating technique. :roll:


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> Oops, sorry about that. I thought I had. I live in the suburbs of Philadelphia. I am actually serious about finding a decent watchmaker locally so I don't have to mail out my watches. Truly, thanks for your help. :-!


ok, cool. I really do think you gotta have them there. Will see.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

5661nicholas said:


> It seems to me one half link on the glide lock side should be removable.....apparently I am wrong. Thank you!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are removable, at least one is. I was able to take mine out. Some of the links seem to have some type of lip around the screw hole that makes it difficult, but not impossible to get them back together. a little pressure should push it back together,

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> Oh, the irony. Sure, whatever you say. Projection is a wonderful debating technique. :roll:


5 minutes of looking and I will find more. check out a review of each

*National Watch Repairing*
*740 Sansom St Ste 207
Philadelphia, PA 19106*


> 9/26/2012
> Not sure what to expect when I walked into the building. It's located on the 2nd floor, above the jewelry stores. I was greeted by an elder asian man (not sure if chinese or korean). I passed him my watch and said it was rattling. It's an Ocean 7 LM-2. He opened it and said, "oh... automatic". Went to the back of the shop and 5 mins later came out and said, "fixed".
> 
> He then explained to me the problem in detail (screws had came out and the barrel came out of place) and also gave me a heads up on maintenance and potential problems down the road. In all, a great experience. Not only did I have my problem fixed but I also felt more educated. He charged me $10. Sweet deal.
> ...


*Raykin Watch Repairs
**60 N 9th St
Philadelphia, PA 19107*


> 4/13/2015
> Raykin is the best watch repair shop in Philadelphia ... possibly in the region. Have a vintage watch like a 75 year old Gruen Curvex? Raykin can repair it. Have an ultra expensive watch like a Patek Philippe or a Vacheron Constantin? Raykin can fix it. Need a leather strap for your watch, but want a tan colored one with stitching on the side ... there's a good chance Raykin has it. I have 100% confidence in this gentleman - he is the consummate "old world" horologist.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite, thanks for the effort. In Philadelphia, we have what's called "Jewelers' Row" - a street lined withe jewelry shops (who also sells new and vintage fine watches). The first guy is from Jewelers' Row. I did check out a couple of watchmakers in the area and they didn't inspire confidence. I am sure these guys can change batteries and straps without a problem but, I don't know. I wasn't expecting a laboratory cleanliness but I did expect tidiness and machines to test pressure, timing, etc. What I saw were work areas that appeared to be disorganized and grimy as my garage. Am I expecting too much?

The second guy seems to be around or near Philadelphia Chinatown area. Great food there. I will check him out but I fear he would be very similar to Jewelers' Row watchmakers. Again, thanks for the effort. Please don't take it the wrong way. I do appreciate your effort on my behalf but you could have save yourself some work if you had just told me to look at Yelp. I really don't mean to sound ungrateful but I was hoping you had a secret list of watchmakers or something. Again, thanks.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> Regarding the speculation about watchmaker reactions, a German owner took his to a pro (https://uhrforum.de/der-ginault-ocean-rover-181070gsln-t292614-3#post3415500):
> 
> The Bergeon die for the Rolex fits the case exactly:
> 
> ...


From the German watch forum thread that you've linked, there was a mention of Glidelock patent still being in effect. Interesting that Ginault is able to offer Glidelock copy on Ocean Rover.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Quick, someone compliment Radar1 for his photography skills. He may keep posting Ocean Rover photos until he gets his daily affirmation. ;-) Fine, I'll do it.

Nice photos, Radar1! You take some nice pictures!


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> From the German watch forum thread that you've linked, there was a mention of Glidelock patent still being in effect. Interesting that Ginault is able to offer Glidelock copy on Ocean Rover.


very point. So I know that the glidelock system was starting to come out in 2008. I am guessing that the patent had been filed 4-5 years before that as is usually the case so no one steels the design. Take it back to say, 2003-4, that would put it at 13-14 years old, which would be right about when the patent date expires. This is all guess, but I do know that everyone knew about the glidelock in 2008


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I just saw the photos of the new models with the date windows. 

My personal opinion is the no date model is the best looking of them, and more true to the classic mil-sub design. Next would be the model without the cyclops magnifier. Kudo's to Ginault for at least matching the date wheel color to the dial color. A white date wheel would've looked out of place.

Last for me is the cyclops version, but I do appreciate how Ginault adjusted their lume from the "vintage" color on the original version to a more white color to match the white date wheel. I think if they had kept the vintage lume, the white date 
wheel would've looked very out of place.

Obviously it is all just a matter of personal opinion, but, as always, Ginault seems to be sweating the details as they introduce new models.

I really wish them success in this as I look forward to seeing some new, maybe more original, designs in the future. They definitely have skills in the manufacturing department.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

The existing no date model with the white hands/markers would also be a very nice option.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

RNHC said:


> From the German watch forum thread that you've linked, there was a mention of Glidelock patent still being in effect. Interesting that Ginault is able to offer Glidelock copy on Ocean Rover.


Unfortunately the clasp design is the main weak point of the watch. It violates at least 1 current patent:








(https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=JP&NR=2006130312&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP#)

(Note this is different than the DeepSea clasp, covered by separate patents)

Personally this is my favorite clasp design and I use it on many of my builds (they're available from a host of vendors and Ebay sellers), so not exactly living clean enough to throw stones here... :-d but nice as they are, Ginault may not be able to continue selling them. :-(


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## Tovarisch (Jan 19, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> I do appreciate how Ginault adjusted their lume from the "vintage" color on the original version to a more white color to match the white date wheel.


It's a pity they used C1 lume instead of BGW9 though&#8230;



Radar1 said:


> The existing no date model with the white hands/markers would also be a very nice option.


Agreed. And a ceramic bezel option would be nice too.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

As an owner, I'd be just as happy if they created an 18mm wide, signed, slide extension clasp similar to what we see on any number of micros. I believe those slide lock type extension clasps are currently only available in 20mm widths, so they would either have to create them or find a supplier willing to adjust the dimensions. A slide lock clasp that wasn't quite so large and thick those currently offered would be a fantastic enhancement.

Regarding the patent infringement specifically identified, Rolex might have a difficult time enforcing or seeking damages. As you point out, these "glide lock" style clasps are readily available on-line from a number of sources. From my limited experience in patent law, my understanding is a historic lack of defense of a patented design can limit your ability to establish future claims. If nothing else, the historic lack of protection would be used as a defense by the defendant.

Then again, Rolex has a fleet of attorneys on staff and Ginault is probably only a 4 or 5 person business (at best). I highly doubt Ginault would even take this to court as the costs of the defense are simply too great.

In discussions with another enthusiast, I was wondering about brands such as Tempus Machina who make very high end Rolex homages that sell for $25,000+. Tempus Machina actually puts dials labeled "Rolex" into their watches, but the dials were not printed by Rolex. Their 6538 homage uses an 8mm brevet (logo'ed with the Rolex crown) crown, but I'm not certain the crown itself is authentic Rolex. There is the possibility Tempus Machina found a stockpile of NOS 8mm 6538 crowns, but as that model has been out of production since 1961, I find that somewhat doubtful. It is kind of an interesting discussion - if I take a Rolex dial, strip it bare, repaint it and re-lume it, then print "Rolex" back on the dial, am I violating IP and Trademark protections? My attorneys would likely say "yes" and pursue a defense, but then again, that's their job.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Tovarisch said:


> Agreed. And a ceramic bezel option would be nice too.


I'd agree on ceramic, but I'd prefer it to have a dull, flat finish rather than a high gloss. A friend blasted his OWC bezel insert using aluminum as the blast media and it created a really nice, flat, effect that looked great.

My only concern with ceramic bezel inserts is when they are fully lumed. I have an OWC which has given me no issues despite being repeatedly used in the ocean, but I've also seen several Pelagos with paint missing from their inserts.

While certainly more rugged, ceramic inserts do also present another potential failure mode.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> In discussions with another enthusiast, I was wondering about brands such as Tempus Machina who make very high end Rolex homages that sell for $25,000+. Tempus Machina actually puts dials labeled "Rolex" into their watches, but the dials were not printed by Rolex. Their 6538 homage uses an 8mm brevet (logo'ed with the Rolex crown) crown, but I'm not certain the crown itself is authentic Rolex. There is the possibility Tempus Machina found a stockpile of NOS 8mm 6538 crowns, but as that model has been out of production since 1961, I find that somewhat doubtful. It is kind of an interesting discussion - if I take a Rolex dial, strip it bare, repaint it and re-lume it, then print "Rolex" back on the dial, am I violating IP and Trademark protections? My attorneys would likely say "yes" and pursue a defense, but then again, that's their job.


This is really interesting topic. Is Tempus Machina is taking vintage Rolex watches/parts, refinishing (or refurbishing) them, and re-selling them? Or is Tempus Machina actually making dials that says Rolex? If it's latter case, obviously it's not homage but crosses over into an area we are forbidden to talk about. I can't believe Rolex would not take action if that was the case, especially if Tempus Machina is selling their watches for more than the real McCoy.


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> I just saw the photos of the new models with the date windows.
> 
> *My personal opinion is the no date model is the best looking of them*, and more true to the classic mil-sub design. Next would be the model without the cyclops magnifier. Kudo's to Ginault for at least matching the date wheel color to the dial color. A white date wheel would've looked out of place.
> 
> ...


In agreement here.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

A new review is posted on my blog by @skylinegtr_34 great pics were uploaded as well.
Here is a teaser









instagram @ the_watchier


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

New Q & A thread from Ginault....

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4056745

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hanshananigan said:


> New Q & A thread from Ginault....
> 
> Ginault Prototype 180260GSLN vs 180165C1LN - Media Q&A


More non-answers from Ginault. :roll: Why do they even bother, I wonder.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> More non-answers from Ginault. :roll: Why do they even bother, I wonder.


I wonder why you even bother.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

RNHC said:


> More non-answers from Ginault. :roll: Why do they even bother, I wonder.


He's baaaaaaack!!!


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

RNHC said:


> More non-answers from Ginault. :roll: Why do they even bother, I wonder.


Do you realize that in the past week, all but one of your postings has been negative comments in Ginault threads? Do you have any idea how that makes you look? No one knows you personally, so on the forum, you are the sum of your postings. IF your postings tend to be trolling posts, then that is how you will be viewed by others.

For example, there is an oris aquis thread right now. I really see nothing appealing about the aquis. Especially the ugly fat lugs that keep me from using a wide range of aftermarket straps. I could go in there and state my opinion once. Then others could respond and say they do not mind it. For me to go back in and continue to try to convince people that I have a good argument is ridiculous. They heard it once. My stating it over and over again, just shows my personal bias and turns me into a troll. I was going to say it once, but it has been said in other threads so no need for me to repeat it in that one. See the difference.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Stellite, you are right. As mf1tym put it so succinctly, why do I bother. I am not going to change Ginault fans' minds. Anyone who doesn't want to see is not going to see and anyone who does see after reading Ginault's BS doesn't need my help to see.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

pepcr1 said:


> He's baaaaaaack!!!


A day late and a dollar short, aren't we? :-d Don't let me intimidate you. Weak and the helpless have nothing to fear from me. ;-)


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Stellite said:


> Do you realize that in the past week, all but one of your postings has been negative comments in Ginault threads? Do you have any idea how that makes you look? No one knows you personally, so on the forum, you are the sum of your postings. IF your postings tend to be trolling posts, then that is how you will be viewed by others.
> 
> For example, there is an oris aquis thread right now. I really see nothing appealing about the aquis. Especially the ugly fat lugs that keep me from using a wide range of aftermarket straps. I could go in there and state my opinion once. Then others could respond and say they do not mind it. For me to go back in and continue to try to convince people that I have a good argument is ridiculous. They heard it once. My stating it over and over again, just shows my personal bias and turns me into a troll. I was going to say it once, but it has been said in other threads so no need for me to repeat it in that one. See the difference.


I have an English question, a shill is defined as an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others.

What is the English word for a person who acts as a prospective buyer but in fact is hired by another competitor to discredit its competition?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> What is the English word for a person who acts as a prospective buyer but in fact is hired by another competitor to discredit its competition?


A mole? A plant?


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Stellite said:


> Do you realize that in the past week, all but one of your postings has been negative comments in Ginault threads? Do you have any idea how that makes you look? No one knows you personally, so on the forum, you are the sum of your postings. IF your postings tend to be trolling posts, then that is how you will be viewed by others.
> 
> For example, there is an oris aquis thread right now. I really see nothing appealing about the aquis. Especially the ugly fat lugs that keep me from using a wide range of aftermarket straps. I could go in there and state my opinion once. Then others could respond and say they do not mind it. For me to go back in and continue to try to convince people that I have a good argument is ridiculous. They heard it once. My stating it over and over again, just shows my personal bias and turns me into a troll. I was going to say it once, but it has been said in other threads so no need for me to repeat it in that one. See the difference.


In society, a bully is easily "treated" by face to face confrontation, an Internet bully is thriving in confrontation, that is best treated by ignoring him.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

pepcr1 said:


> He's baaaaaaack!!!


Insert scary Jason mask. Lol.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

RNHC said:


> A day late and a dollar short, aren't we? :-d Don't let me intimidate you. Weak and the helpless have nothing to fear from me. ;-)


Mighty Mouse behind the screen


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

pepcr1 said:


> Mighty Mouse behind the screen


Here I come to save the day! :-d


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## ivanx (Mar 23, 2008)

Lume markers are killers very nice.

affordable watch very.


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

I've just posted a video and written review of my Ocean Rover compared to my Squale 1545 Heritage, check it out if you're interested:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/gina...comparative-video-written-review-4095674.html


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## mrpete (Dec 13, 2006)

OldeCrow said:


> I should be above flinging insults myself but I just had to get a jab in at all the "Negative Nanceys?, Nancy's?, Nancies?"
> I choose to believe people so determined to malign a watch must be getting paid by another brand otherwise they would have better things to do. They would be the "paid brand lackeys"
> 
> I bought the Ginault, I think it checks all the boxes for a great sub homage, I don't care for the flowery ad speak but it will appeal to the general consumer as a magazine ad and in that respect even the flowery ad speak is spot on.
> ...


thank god for Oldecrow, finally someone who knows what they're talking about.


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## SDGenius (May 30, 2014)




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## phillycheez (Mar 4, 2011)

I was one of your first customers with the bm1... Will this bracelet fit it? Will this crystal fit it? 

You used to offer the option to print our own logo... Will you do that if I send it in? 

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Well it looks like their coupons have expired.


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

People say that they're worth $1200. Why don't you buy one full price and let us know what you think?



tynan.nida said:


> Well it looks like their coupons have expired.


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Tanjecterly said:


> People say that they're worth $1200. Why don't you buy one full price and let us know what you think?


Ha! Yeah no, I'd buy one at the discounted price, no way at full price


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Bezel construction is 16610: friction washers, click springs and bezel inserts interchange. 

Inserts snap in without adhesive just like they should. 









Here's to an obscure microbrand with LOTS of cheap replacement parts and options! :-!


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## run23 (Jul 12, 2009)

I find the amount of emotion people have over an obscure watch brand's marketing tactics to be endlessly amusing, which I guess is why I'm reading and commenting on a thread about a watch I'll never buy. 

So Rolex and Omega can spend millions of dollars to have people wear and endorse their watches, but Ginault's offering people a $500 coupon to say something about the watch is unethical and scummy? Jeez, no wonder new companies can't compete against these big brands.


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

NeedAG said:


> Bezel construction is 16610: friction washers, click springs and bezel inserts interchange.
> 
> Inserts snap in without adhesive just like they should.
> 
> ...


that looks great with the red seconds hand


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> Bezel construction is 16610: friction washers, click springs and bezel inserts interchange.
> 
> Inserts snap in without adhesive just like they should.


Nice!

Can you share your source for the bezel insert? It even looks like the lume pip matches the dial lume ...


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Think this is from WholeSaleOutlet on ebay, or eWatchParts... It's a good quality 16610 replacement with the thicker outer ring on the underside. |>









I relumed the bezel pip, it's not a very good match but at least visible in the dark! :-d


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

NeedAG said:


> Bezel construction is 16610: friction washers, click springs and bezel inserts interchange.
> 
> Inserts snap in without adhesive just like they should.
> 
> ...


This is awesome. 
Now I want a Pepsi bezel or a coke bezel. Possibly both. 
Any clue where to source one?
Thanks!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Great to see so many positive comments about the Ginault but of course this thread also has the obligatory pretentious condescending ****s that seem to frequent all types of forums.

Thanks to all who have contributed positive and constructive comments and for the fans, I too think this is a great option to a Rollie Sub.

I'm a huge fan of the 5 digit Rollie Subs but sometimes there isn't sufficient justification to spend that kind of coin and the Ginault is a sensible compromise but still being something to value and enjoy.

Hope to have mine in a day or so.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

59er said:


> Great to see so many positive comments about the Ginault but of course this thread also has the obligatory pretentious condescending ****s that seem to frequent all types of forums.
> 
> Thanks to all who have contributed positive and constructive comments and for the fans, I too think this is a great option to a Rollie Sub.
> 
> ...


What's really great to see is a constructive comment like this one, that moves a discussion forward into new directions, for the benefit of all. Bravo! Please, thank your parents and your teachers for me, they raised an outstanding member of society!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Enjoy your new Ginault, 59er. Fantastic watch. |>


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

59er said:


> Great to see so many positive comments about the Ginault but of course this thread also has the obligatory pretentious condescending ****s that seem to frequent all types of forums.
> 
> Thanks to all who have contributed positive and constructive comments and for the fans, I too think this is a great option to a Rollie Sub.
> 
> ...


You nailed it!

Please post a review of your OR!



hwa said:


> What's really great to see is a constructive comment like this one, that moves a discussion forward into new directions, for the benefit of all. Bravo! Please, thank your parents and your teachers for me, they raised an outstanding member of society!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Feeling the nails?

59er description of the thread is concise and spot on :-d


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

So for those that may be interested my watch arrived today but barely enough time to open the box so I'm looking forward to acquainting myself with it over the weekend.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

kelt said:


> You nailed it!
> 
> Please post a review of your OR!
> 
> ...


Nice! A little crucifixion humor for Easter! Well played, Pontius!

Your insipidity is astounding. Sheesh.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Some people just don't seem to know when to cease and desist.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)




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## argv (Feb 27, 2017)

Lost 3-4 seconds in 10 days I can't be happier:


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

argv said:


> Lost 3-4 seconds in 10 days I can't be happier:
> 
> View attachment 11523922


I'm loving mine... -1.5 sec per day after 2 weeks.









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## argv (Feb 27, 2017)

run23 said:


> I find the amount of emotion people have over an obscure watch brand's marketing tactics to be endlessly amusing, which I guess is why I'm reading and commenting on a thread about a watch I'll never buy.
> 
> So Rolex and Omega can spend millions of dollars to have people wear and endorse their watches, but Ginault's offering people a $500 coupon to say something about the watch is unethical and scummy? Jeez, no wonder new companies can't compete against these big brands.


100% agree, and I must add that millions of dollars to wear watches which may or may not be their personal favorite, v.s. $500 discount to real watch buyers for their true/honest reviews. I've had the Ginault for almost 2 weeks and they haven't asked a single word about my pending review, in addition the Paypal transaction was complete there's no way they can take the discount back regardless of whatever I'm going to say in the pending review.

Also I found it amusing that some even laughed at the text "Kinetic Continuous" while being OK with "Perpetual Date" which is know to at least mislead some people: https://www.watchuseek.com/f23/what-does-perpetual-date-mean-387228.html


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

^^^ Add to this the current common practice of micros having to give away samples of their watches to blog owners for "review". Some reviewed watches are returned, but many are sold on the secondary market AKA the "pump and dump". 

Of course a blog owner could slag a sample watch in their review, but that would likely result in them being cut off from future releases, essentially killing their lifeblood of new watches to review. There is an implicit relationship in this situation. 

FWIW, the blogs which have reviewed this watch gave very positive overviews. 

I look at at two indicators to see through all the drama surrounding these threads:

#1 - How often are these watches reviewed then rapidly sold? By all indications, not very often. Maybe we'll see more now that the coupons are expired and people will try to make a profit in their sale, but to date this is a very infrequently flipped watch. 

#2 - How often do the power posters who are so against this watch post similarly in threads about similar homages such as Tissell? Not often if at all. This indicates to me there is something else driving their motivations which discounts their opinion in my estimation.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

My surprise is that so many members get so passionate about watches that they DON'T like.

When I get passionate about something I look for as much info that I can find and get involved in forums, shows, dealers showrooms or whatever I can find to satisfy my hunger for info about my new obsession, but I can't remember ever being passionate about something I don't like, I just right it off and move on to something else worthy of my attention.


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## AaronMckay (Jan 15, 2015)

59er said:


> My surprise is that so many members get so passionate about watches that they DON'T like.
> 
> When I get passionate about something I look for as much info that I can find and get involved in forums, shows, dealers showrooms or whatever I can find to satisfy my hunger for info about my new obsession, but I can't remember ever being passionate about something I don't like, I just right it off and move on to something else worthy of my attention.


Some people unfortunately are just wired to look for things to be upset about. It's their way of coping

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## WIS_Chronomaster (Sep 17, 2007)

Great post lovely to see.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Glad so many are enjoying this watch :-!

My review: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/gina...e-181070gsln-modders-perspective-4241026.html


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

OK this thread has halted somewhat so I'll ad a pic and say that I have been enjoying the OR for a week or so and am only growing fonder of it with each day.

Will put a review together later (for those that may still be on the fence and are still looking for new reviews) when I have enough wear to evaluate but so far only have good things to say about it.


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## jlow28 (Feb 27, 2010)

59er said:


> OK this thread has halted somewhat so I'll ad a pic and say that I have been enjoying the OR for a week or so and am only growing fonder of it with each day.
> 
> Will put a review together later (for those that may still be on the fence and are still looking for new reviews) when I have enough wear to evaluate but so far only have good things to say about it.


I was under the impression the coupon or review discount was no longer valid. Their website has the price listed as $1,299 and shipping in one week. It will be interesting to the their pricing structure moving forward.
PS- Nice picture

Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

jlow28 said:


> I was under the impression the coupon or review discount was no longer valid. Their website has the price listed as $1,299 and shipping in one week. It will be interesting to the their pricing structure moving forward.
> PS- Nice picture
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


Yes I think I may have been one of the last to get the review discount as it was noted a day or two after I ordered that the code no longer worked.

Cheers.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Has anyone inquired whether they will sell the bracelet separately? 

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

There is now a 45 percent discount for reviews. You need to contact them though for it.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> ^^^ Add to this the current common practice of micros having to give away samples of their watches to blog owners for "review". Some reviewed watches are returned, but many are sold on the secondary market AKA the "pump and dump".
> 
> Of course a blog owner could slag a sample watch in their review, but that would likely result in them being cut off from future releases, essentially killing their lifeblood of new watches to review. There is an implicit relationship in this situation.
> 
> ...


I have been feeling #2 a lot for a while. It is weird how those posters targeted every Ginault thread as well as YouTube clip so relentlessly which started to make me think their agenda and motive.

59er said it so well. Why are you so passionate about something that you don't like? Just doesn't make sense.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

The handful of Ginault "bashers" appear to be also very active in the"Best Submariner Homage threads", it's funny to see that they worship MKII watches (lesser quality than Ginault and sold at much higher prices) and NTH homages straight from China and way overpriced (same quality as Armida subs but costing twice as much).

Ginault comes along with the very best Submariner homage offering at any prices and these same NTH/ MKII worshipers do their very best to bash Ginault and disrupt the O.R. related threads, it's weird b-)


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## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

A good review of the Ginault on another website......

The tale of two homages


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

kelt said:


> The handful of Ginault "bashers" appear to be also very active in the"Best Submariner Homage threads", it's funny to see that they worship MKII watches (lesser quality than Ginault and sold at much higher prices) and *NTH homages straight from China and way overpriced (same quality as Armida subs but costing twice as much)*.
> 
> Ginault comes along with the very best Submariner homage offering at any prices and these same NTH/ MKII worshipers do their very best to bash Ginault and disrupt the O.R. related threads, it's weird b-)


I guess that's the power of online marketing that Ginault should take notes. Doc V writes a lot and certainly has a way with words and with his readers. He knows how to rally up a crowd of supporters. And for some mysterious reasons it makes people willing to dish out double the money for something that can be had for half the price with other less marketed brands.

It is evident now that Ginault Ocean Rover's quality is leagues above the other Sub homage brands. But why is Ginault's Ocean Rover being sold at the current 500-600 range only? IMHO if Ginault picked up a trick or two from them the Ocean Rover can easily be marketed at the 2k range along side with other entry level Swiss brands.

After 4 good months of wearing and bonding with my OR. I can say the Ocean Rover's fit and finish is every bit on par with my 116610LV. The accuracy is there too.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I know this is not an image gallery but can't think of a more appropriate thread.

Enjoying a coffee and the OR this morning.


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

*Bracelet issues*



kelt said:


> The handful of Ginault "bashers" appear to be also very active in the"Best Submariner Homage threads", it's funny to see that they worship* MKII watches (lesser quality than Ginault and sold at much higher prices)* and NTH homages straight from China and way overpriced (same quality as Armida subs but costing twice as much).
> 
> Ginault comes along with the very best Submariner homage offering at any prices and these same NTH/ MKII worshipers do their very best to bash Ginault and disrupt the O.R. related threads, it's weird b-)


???lesser quality??? My early Kingston and Nassau were south of $1K and Keywest a little north so not much higher.

No quality issues with me and I own a few. My original Kingston has been very active, swimming, surf / sup'ing and it's never skipped a beat. Been wearing a ginault for the last 2 months straight. Take it off for work and it has only been in the pool no ocean. Love it but it's not as accurate as my MK's but close enough. As long as it's a few seconds fast I'm happy. 1 SEC slow drives me way more CRAZY!

The bracelet that gets so much praise seems to already be having issues for me. Today running late for work I go to take my watch off and the flip lock is stuck in the closed position and will not open :-s Not wanting to damage it I was able to slowly pry it open but it did not feel good forcing it open! Checked it out tonight with a loupe and cannot determine what caused it to lock up? The glide lock was jammed so tight it took a big effort to disengage it and there was no dirt inside? The flip lock is now noticeably looser.

Has anyone else had any issues?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

*Re: Bracelet issues*

Haven't had any issues with the clasp on mine but have only been wearing it for a few weeks, I'm thinking that possibly the glidelock part that sits into the groove wasn't seated fully down into the groove when the clasp closed so then it would be sitting a little high and possibly would then be "pulling" too tightly on the hook that the swiveling end clamps over? Does that make sense?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I'll agree with MTBMIKE on the MKii comment. While I have concerns over MKii's product delivery schedule and I've heard mixed reviews of their service, once delivered the product appears to be of good quality. Certainly there have been some reports of issues (click springs for instance) but MKii has also delivered quite a few more products so statistics would probably suggest MKii quality should still be considered high.

Regarding the clasp, the only issue I've had was the bracelet screw closest to the flip lock backed out just a little bit. It wasn't out enough to notice obviously just by looking at the bracelet, but it was enough to interfere with the flip lock from opening. The tolerances between the ID of the flip lock and the OD of the bracelet link is surprisingly tight. 

I was able to reset the screw while wearing the watch (a bit of a trick) then open the watch clasp as normal to remove it. I then reset the screw again, except this time with a bit of locktite. I would recommend this as SOP for everyone using this bracelet, especially for this specific screw. 

Maybe the same thing happened to you? If you forced the flip lock over the screw head, you may have bent the flip lock a bit, making it feel looser than normal. I'm not certain there is an easy solution. You might try to squeeze the flip lock back into shape, but I'm not certain how well it work work. Option "B" is to simply write to Ginault and ask to purchase a replacement clasp.


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## morrijef (Apr 24, 2017)

I like it but not paying $1300 for one. Id buy one at the same price as a reviewer 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

morrijef said:


> I like it but not paying $1300 for one. Id buy one at the same price as a reviewer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


And you would miss the opportunity to own what is by far the best "classic" submariner homage available. A watch you could proudly show around just like a Tiffany or a Bamford Sub, the Ocean Rover on the wrist feels like a Submariner 14060 or 16610 only difference it costs 1/6th for the same quality.

credit picture Stellite


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

morrijef said:


> I like it but not paying $1300 for one. Id buy one at the same price as a reviewer
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I don't necessarily disagree with you. Any relatively unknown micro charging north of $1,000 USD for a product is a stretch as for as I'm concerned.

Personally, I think the discount for an honest review was a smart move on Ginault's part. I paid $520 for my example with the discount and if the watch was a POS, I would've said so and just used it as a beater surf watch until it died.

The honest answer is the watch is really nice - far beyond "beater" status. If you are a fan of Sub styled watches, you could very easily do much worse and you'd be hard pressed to do much better.

While maybe a topic for another thread, an interesting (in my opinion) comparison would be the new Monta versus the Ginault. Monta went an alternate path in marketing by establishing relationships with some blogs and presenting watches to them for review. The Monta is also priced significantly higher than the Ginault at $3,500 USD. Certainly one could point out the Monta's use of the Eterna movement and different included accessories, but, rhetorically speaking, is the Monta really "worth" 3X the Ginault?

I sum it up as understanding the market will dictate the "right" price for the product. Ginault started low ($520 for very early adopters) and seems to be slowly raising their prices by reducing discounts over time. This makes sense as I took a risk buying the Ginault when I did. The later you purchase, the more information you have available, the less the risk and therefore the less the necessary discount to gain customers.

Monta, in contrast, seems to have gone for the pricing high ground, but they must also certainly understand their market to be very narrow at this introductory price point. They are using marketing techniques designed to specifically target these potential buyers.

Regarding your original statement, my opinion is, if you are interested in the Ginault, I would make the jump sooner versus later.


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

If Ginault had been run a Kickstarter campaign, no one had been complaining about the difference in Price for early adopters...

Sent from the north!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I think the Mk11 was only mentioned due to previous mentions with regards to the non-Ginault lovers making comments about the Ginault but personally I love the earlier Mk11 offerings which of course were also Rollie homages and I would have loved to have one or two of them sitting side by side with my Ginault in my watchbox but unfortunately the Kingston and Nassau that I love are simply not easily available and I have been on the email list for years with no sign of either being again available.

On the other hand I ordered my Ginault and it was shipped within a few days so as far as a buying experience Ginault was easy.

As far as perceived value is concerned it is a hard one as I'm sure that the early buyers of the first Mk11 were also hesitant at first of spending a still significant amount on an new brand but now those used Kingstons are going for close to three grand, the brand became popular and the value is now perceived as high but it could have easily gone the other way.

For me I simply look at it as like so many other purchases, can I afford it and I am looking at it purely as a basic item and whether it gives me what I want from that item.

I'm sure many here spent thousands on their first plasma or LCD TV and most of those are now in landfill so $1300 - 1500 for a watch that will likely last a lifetime is not too much for me at least and if I'm lucky many will see the same value as I do and our watches will increase in popularity and also value.

And I try not to post without pics so here's another of my OR.


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## drinkbleach (Aug 29, 2014)

accuarcy seems to be losing time. about -4 s now instead of -1s. if it was tested for six weeks I'd figure it's settled. Is everyone's else still running as speced on third timing sheet?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

drinkbleach said:


> accuarcy seems to be losing time. about -4 s now instead of -1s. if it was tested for six weeks I'd figure it's settled. Is everyone's else still running as speced on third timing sheet?


How are you measuring?

Readings will vary depending on watch position and spring tension so variations of 3 or 4 seconds would be expected unless using a specific position, sample time and a fully wound spring.


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## drinkbleach (Aug 29, 2014)

59er said:


> How are you measuring?
> 
> Readings will vary depending on watch position and spring tension so variations of 3 or 4 seconds would be expected unless using a specific position, sample time and a fully wound spring.


ahhh. I leave face up when going to bed. usually only wear after I get home from work (5-11pm) so spring might not be fully wound. should I re-sample with fully wound spring every night?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Just saw a great YouTube review.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

drinkbleach said:


> ahhh. I leave face up when going to bed. usually only wear after I get home from work (5-11pm) so spring might not be fully wound. should I re-sample with fully wound spring every night?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


I noticed that the accuracy varies depending on the power reserve level of the movements. This is true across a whole range of my automatic watches. Generally speaking the movement will run much more accurately when the power reserve is at a healthy level which means the amp is high.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

drinkbleach said:


> ahhh. I leave face up when going to bed. usually only wear after I get home from work (5-11pm) so spring might not be fully wound. should I re-sample with fully wound spring every night?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Yes mate get your watch fully or close to fully wound by wearing for a couple of days or manual winding then set to the exact second via one of the time websites such as timeanddate.com then place face up or face down and leave for 12hrs then check your time again against the website and double the variance (12h x 2=24) that will give you a reasonable idea of just how accurate your watch is.

A timeographer would be better but most of us don't have enough concern about fine tolerance accuracy to warrant the spend.

Typical accuracy is considered good at +/-4 seconds for a new mechanical watch but chrono is expected at +/- 1 sec per day.

I'm happy if my watches are +/- 10 secs a day as even if wearing that watch 24/7 we are only talking around a minute a week so I could easily go for a month at a time without re-setting and being that I rotate my watches I rarely were any for more than a week at a time so have to set time on each new rotation anyway.

Cheers, Mark.


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## drinkbleach (Aug 29, 2014)

59er said:


> Yes mate get your watch fully or close to fully wound by wearing for a couple of days or manual winding then set to the exact second via one of the time websites such as timeanddate.com then place face up or face down and leave for 12hrs then check your time again against the website and double the variance (12h x 2=24) that will give you a reasonable idea of just how accurate your watch is.
> 
> A timeographer would be better but most of us don't have enough concern about fine tolerance accuracy to warrant the spend.
> 
> ...


thx for the info. I'm still impressed with movement acuarcy. I usually don't care and actually set ahead a little so I'm within a few minutes every few weeks.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

59er said:


> Typical accuracy is considered good at +/-4 seconds for a new mechanical watch but chrono is expected at +/- 1 sec per day.


You're being much too demanding here. The COSC (Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres*) *standard is -4 to +6 (with further requirements on positional and temperature variation). Rolex aims for -2 to +2 on wrist for its "superlative chronometer" designation. AFAIK, no watchmaker claims a +/-1 standard.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Avo said:


> You're being much too demanding here. The COSC (Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres*) *standard is -4 to +6 (with further requirements on positional and temperature variation). Rolex aims for -2 to +2 on wrist for its "superlative chronometer" designation. AFAIK, no watchmaker claims a +/-1 standard.


Yeah I was just quoting from chronocentrics published data which gave differing specs for new or "vintage" watches.

As stated I am happy with +/- 10 secs and some of my watches are barely within 20 and they do me fine.

It's just another bit of info that is dangerous in our hobby as so many learn about such data and have higher than relavent expectation for their watches.

I spent days trying regulate a crappy A2813 to anywhere near a 10 sec accuracy and ended up replacing the movement as I just couldn't get it close and was so over it by then that I didn't even try to regulate the new movement once I saw that it was doing within 20 secs.

I did do a quick iphone app timegrapher check on my OR when first getting it which I think came in at 1 or 2 secs but haven't bothered since.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Another great YoutTube review on the Ginault Ocean Rover. 





I just love this guy and his very low key but funny style. He has done 4 updates regarding the OR, so just want to spread the word and support this guy.

"what on earth would I replace this with??" LOL


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Just another pic.

I believe that there is a date version of the OR with maxi dial and sand lume on it's way.

More saving required.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

This watch is awesome


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Seppia said:


> This watch is awesome


Looks great on the leather, I'm going to order the same style in Black, where did you get yours?


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks. 
It's from Art at Drunkart straps. 
His straps are awesome, but he is a very busy man and you don't have to be in a hurry to get them when you contact him.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Seppia said:


> Thanks.
> It's from Art at Drunkart straps.
> His straps are awesome, but he is a very busy man and you don't have to be in a hurry to get them when you contact him.


Cheers mate but......................***BOOKS ARE CLOSED*** Working from wait list.


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

Seppia said:


> This watch is awesome


Stunning photo 

Sent from the north!


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Really enjoying my Ocean Rover!









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

bolts40 said:


> Really enjoying my Ocean Rover!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great looking date version. I have been thinking of picking one up. But I really like the maxi style indices and hands of the 181070.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Great looking date version. I have been thinking of picking one up. But I really like the maxi style indices and hands of the 181070.


Yes, the 181070 is nice. But I like having the date function. I also bought this one...these watches are seriously TOP QUALITY. I understand some people have their problems with Ginault but in my opinion these watches are certainly on par with the 16610 (not including the movement- time will tell as far as that is concerned). The build quality is outstanding.









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

They are awesome but no, they are not on par with the 16610.
It would be unreasonable to expect they are.


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## pocketlim (Jun 28, 2015)

I just had an email with them. They are soon releasing the same version as the black date dial with maxi indices and larger sword hands. Coming up in two or so weeks on their website.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Great news


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Another nice (although wet) morning with the OR.


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## Leoaa777 (Oct 1, 2012)

Ill wait for it in the used marketplace. 1200 for homage is crazy. save a bit more and buy the real thing


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## Fox143 (Jan 12, 2014)

One for sale on the bay right now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Just saw the new releas a new variant of the Ocean Rover with maxi dial !! 
https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181270gslid-gsln/


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

mf1tym said:


> Just saw the new releas a new variant of the Ocean Rover with maxi dial !!
> https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181270gslid-gsln/


That bezel is haaawth!

Sent from the north!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Hj3lm said:


> That bezel is haaawth!
> 
> Sent from the north!


haaawth meaning ? lol

I like the date with black bezel insert.


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## DEMO111 (Apr 27, 2006)

Leoaa777 said:


> Ill wait for it in the used marketplace. 1200 for homage is crazy. save a bit more and buy the real thing


The price on their website says $1399. That is steep. :roll:


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Just saw the new pieces. Need to get some more pics. Right on. 

Knoc


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Had it for 48 hours, talk about accuracy  love this thing




























Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## Ukal (Nov 6, 2015)

Hj3lm said:


> That bezel is haaawth!
> 
> Sent from the north!


I'm assuming that is a good thing? 

I'm not one for homages but that is one nice looking watch with that blue n good bezel.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

DEMO111 said:


> The price on their website says $1399. That is steep. :roll:


Don't they still offer it 50% off or is that over.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

JLS36 said:


> Don't they still offer it 50% off or is that over.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


They still do offer a discount i think 50% for a review but not the 60% which they offered back in Jan.


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## run23 (Jul 12, 2009)

Wow. A few pages without the Ginault bashers. Maybe they are getting tired of complaining about a watch (-: 

In all seriousness, I applaud Ginault for its marketing approach, despite some early communication missteps. I'm not into homages at all (nothing against them, just not for me), but based on the numerous reviews I would consider pulling the trigger--especially at the discounted price -- if I did want a Sub homage. Overall it looks like they did a really good job. 

I am all for supporting new watch makers trying to break into a really tough market that is dominated by misplaced snobbery and brand worship. Heck, if the major brands start to feel some heat from new competitors (doubt that they will, but I can only hope), especially ones legally copying existing designs, that's a good thing for watch buyers.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

My summer combo


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Seppia said:


> My summer combo


What kind of strap is that? Would like to try one in black.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

I often wear the watch on my right hand as well. It would be nice to have a lefty version of the Sub which is rarely seen.


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

I just may have to pull the trigger on one of these. That blue bezel looks great!


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> I often wear the watch on my right hand as well. It would be nice to have a lefty version of the Sub which is rarely seen.


If the dial feet on the OR are located at 12'/42' same as the ETA 2824-2 , the dial can be turned 180° and transform it to a "destro".


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> What kind of strap is that? Would like to try one in black.


That's a new version of Toxicnatos Rubbers, an isofrane clone. 
I personally like them much better than the originals because
1- they cost around 1/3rd of the isofrane
2- they do not have that terrible vanilla smell
3- Terry @toxicnatos is a great guy


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Bummer, just saw two specs of dust or lume on the dial, they were not on there when I first got the watch. Must be the sand that fell of the indices lol. Contacted Ginault, only had the watch for 4 days. I guess lets see what happens next. 


Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Seppia said:


> That's a new version of Toxicnatos Rubbers, an isofrane clone.
> I personally like them much better than the originals because
> 1- they cost around 1/3rd of the isofrane
> 2- they do not have that terrible vanilla smell
> 3- Terry @toxicnatos is a great guy


Second this. Snatched two of em and absolutely worth it.


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## pocketlim (Jun 28, 2015)

Just wanted to let y'all know that I've received the no date maxi dial, and I absolutely love it. Ginault's customer service is fantastic. I'll put more details in a review of why, but I'll leave it at that for now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

Anyone else having straps mounted on their Ocean-Rover? On mine the lug holes sits to right so the straps get scratched Up 

Sent from the north!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Hj3lm said:


> Anyone else having straps mounted on their Ocean-Rover? On mine the lug holes sits to right so the straps get scratched Up
> 
> Sent from the north!


Not sure what you mean "sits to the right"?


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

59er said:


> Not sure what you mean "sits to the right"?


Autocorrect... To tight is what I meant 

Sent from the north!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Hj3lm said:


> Autocorrect... To tight is what I meant
> 
> Sent from the north!


Still a bit hard to understand.

Which part of the strap is being scratched? got pix to show?


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Hj3lm said:


> Anyone else having straps mounted on their Ocean-Rover? On mine the lug holes sits to right so the straps get scratched Up
> 
> Sent from the north!


I haven't had issues with straps so far. Choosing ones that are not too thick is the key. Really wish I had some 20mm mesh to try on it. 

























Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Quicksilver said:


> I haven't had issues with straps so far. Choosing ones that are not too thick is the key. Really wish I had some 20mm mesh to try on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, when did you pick up an OR?? Nice work!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> Hey, when did you pick up an OR?? Nice work!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Hey Don. I picked one up around the 1st week of March. Really well executed watch. Casework and bracelet are very nice. Also one of the most comfortable watches I have ever wore.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Quicksilver said:


> Hey Don. I picked one up around the 1st week of March. Really well executed watch. Casework and bracelet are very nice. Also one of the most comfortable watches I have ever wore.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed Jason. Superb watch.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

A great looking watch, sadly at 40mm a tad too small for my liking. If it ran at 42mm or even better, 44mm, I'd be all over it. Hopefully they will offer some larger variants in the future.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Another big plus for the Ginault customer service. Two specks appeared on the dial on my OR after 4 days of me receiving the watch. I did not inspect my watch under the loupe or anything so I am not sure if it arrived like that but I saw them sparkle in the sun this weekend and once you see them once.... Sent them a pic, They responded promptly asking me to ship it back and they are sending a replacement. They also provided me with the prepaid shipping label. Excellent customer service. 


Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Another big plus for the Ginault customer service. Two specks appeared on the dial on my OR after 4 days of me receiving the watch. I did not inspect my watch under the loupe or anything so I am not sure if it arrived like that but I saw them sparkle in the sun this weekend and once you see them once.... Sent them a pic, They responded promptly asking me to ship it back and they are sending a replacement. They also provided me with the prepaid shipping label. Excellent customer service.
> 
> Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


Solid service.


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## pocketlim (Jun 28, 2015)

I would also like to chime in with Ginault's exceptional customer service. 

While taking photos for the unboxing and review, I noticed that the bezel wouldn't center properly at 0. It was ever so slightly to the side. Not really bothering me, but I sent them a close-up image as well as informing them that they should keep a close look at the quality control process for issues like these. Not soon after, they offered to have the watch returned and a new one sent out, OR send me a second bezel so that I could fit it on myself in the future (also I suppose these aluminum bezels can get scratched up over time). 

I opted for the first option, and they also sent me a prepaid shipping label.

Everyone says to buy the seller. You can't go wrong with Ginault. Their customer service is sublime. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I've had no problems with my OR but it's good to know that Ginault are backing their products.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Hey, when did you pick up an OR?? Nice work!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


These are amazing pictures. Really does the watch justice.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Remember a few months back we were concerned about the resale value of the OR in used market? The prices were slowly creeping up from $450 to $500 to $600 and just saw one sold at $850
https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/sold-ginault-ocean-rover-two-months-old-4368706.html


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Remember a few months back we were concerned about the resale value of the OR in used market? The prices were slowly creeping up from $450 to $500 to $600 and just saw one sold at $850
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/sold-ginault-ocean-rover-two-months-old-4368706.html


Good to see. It is a solid buy at $850.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Another big plus for the Ginault customer service. Two specks appeared on the dial on my OR after 4 days of me receiving the watch. I did not inspect my watch under the loupe or anything so I am not sure if it arrived like that but I saw them sparkle in the sun this weekend and once you see them once.... Sent them a pic, They responded promptly asking me to ship it back and they are sending a replacement. They also provided me with the prepaid shipping label. Excellent customer service.
> 
> Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


Received the replacement today
I missed it while it was gone










Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Good to see. It is a solid buy at $850.


Totally agreed. I have always thought the OR at the discount they were doing back then was nothing less than a steal. At the sub 1k price point the OR is still a great option for a solid Sub style dive watch.


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Don't see mine leaving anytime soon









Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## OCDRob (Apr 18, 2016)

I just received my second Ginault OR, this time with a date and the blue and gold bezel.


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

I got mine for the "review" price (sub $600) and I can tell you right now I wouldn't sell it for 1k.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

OCDRob said:


> I just received my second Ginault OR, this time with a date and the blue and gold bezel.


A beauty! But they should have used another seconds hand imo.

Sent from the north!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Seppia said:


> They are awesome but no, they are not on par with the 16610.
> It would be unreasonable to expect they are.


I hold a slightly different opinion. I really think the degree of completeness of the Ocean Rover's case, bezel assembly, insert, all the way to the dial is very much on par with that of a Rolex Submariner, might it be the classic 5 digit or the modern 6 digit.

I am a big fan of applied indices, and Rolex has always pride themselves with their ability to make the applied indices in such refined manner. When I first saw the Ocean Rover's dial in person I was blown away and could not believe what I was looking at. Pictures really do not do the OR justice.

The hands on the OR is also super well done. They are not the flat, stamped, lifeless, run of the mill hands that you'd except on regular homages. These hands are super nice if you examine them under a loupe. You will see that nicely machined contour. I mean these are all details that are not so obvious to most people but truly shows the level of craftsmanship the good people at Ginault is capable of doing. 

Of course the movements are day and night. But in terms of performance my OR is keeping good time compare to the 3135 inside my hulk. When I wear my OR I really do feel like I am wearing a piece that exudes quality and craftsmanship no less than a Rolex .


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Hj3lm said:


> A beauty! But they should have used another seconds hand imo.
> 
> Sent from the north!


Maybe interesting to see one with regular second hand but with red lettering on the dial.


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Having worn this watch for a few days, I must admit that this is spending more time on my wrist that I had anticipated. I think Ginault has done a great job with the ocean rover.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Took my Ginault to the GTG 
tonight. Everyone was impressed with the build quality, heft and the look of it. They said it is on par with the luxury pieces that were there and worth the price tag of 1300$. Take it for what its worth but there were easily 100k+ of watches there tonight so I would say these guys know a thing or two





































Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Took my Ginault to the GTG
> tonight. Everyone was impressed with the build quality, heft and the look of it. They said it is on par with the luxury pieces that were there and worth the price tag of 1300$. Take it for what its worth but there were easily 100k+ of watches there tonight so I would say these guys know a thing or two
> 
> 
> ...


That is certainly great news. I have a feel that the Ginault hate is starting to cool of and the love getting warmer 

Sent from the north!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

OCDRob said:


> I just received my second Ginault OR, this time with a date and the blue and gold bezel.


Can we see more pictures of the blue OR? Is the blue and gold insert very much like the Rolex TT Sub? Thanks!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Noticed the guy next table was staring at the OR on my wrist during lunch. He finally came over and asked about the watch and asked if he could take a look. And he was very impressed with the quality, hand feel, and construction of the case, bezel assembly, and bracelet.

Great Friday, good lunch, enjoying the sun, and good way to meet a new fellow WIS.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Uploaded this pic in the other Ginualt thread, so thought I might as well do it here. Sorry for the bad focus.

This is a comparo shot of my Rolex 116610LV vs Ocean Rover 181070GSLN. Both were charged with a strong flashlight and left in a pitch black room for 8 hours.

picture were taken to compare the visibility and durability of both watches' lume "cruising mode" sort to speak. Have to see it to believe it.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Guys,

I tried to follow this thread. I read a total of about 35-40 pages throughout the 118 so far and I'm not really pulling it together. I just want to know two things if those who have been on this ride from the beginning can elaborate.

1. Is the watch good? Meaning reliable, good fit and finish, good support.
2. Is it fairly priced at $1,300?

Thanks for you help!


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Yes and yes


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Ginseng108 said:


> 1. Is the watch good? Meaning reliable, good fit and finish, good support.


Mine has certainly been reliable (running about +3s/day on wrist) over the 4 months that I have had it, wearing it at least 5 days per week, and the fit-and-finish is excellent.

There are positive comments in this thread and others about support from those who have needed it (I have not).



Ginseng108 said:


> 2. Is it fairly priced at $1,300?


This is highly subjective. I can say this: if mine were lost or stolen, and discounts were not available, I would pay $1300 to replace it. I think it's a much nicer watch than the Damasko DA47 that I paid $1500 for (but returned for a refund due to QC issues).


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Thank you, folks. Indications are that I should put it on "the list."

BTW, what is the bezel material? It's got the sheen and texture of painted/anodized metal and not ceramic as far as I can tell from the pictures on their website.


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

Ginseng108 said:


> Thank you, folks. Indications are that I should put it on "the list."
> 
> BTW, what is the bezel material? It's got the sheen and texture of painted/anodized metal and not ceramic as far as I can tell from the pictures on their website.


The bezel is aluminium 

Sent from the north!


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## lithographica (May 15, 2017)

Has anyone had issues with the applied hour markers falling off the dial? I did a search and couldn't find anything. As you can see in the pics below, the 4:00 hour marker fell off and is now lodged between the seconds hand and the rehaut. I immediately pulled out the crown to stop the movement as to prevent any (further) damage. I sent Ginault an email this morning, so let's see how good their customer service is; based on what I've read, I shouldn't have any problems. I'll report back with my experience.


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## Hj3lm (Jun 24, 2015)

lithographica said:


> Has anyone had issues with the applied hour markers falling off the dial? I did a search and couldn't find anything. As you can see in the pics below, the 4:00 hour marker fell off and is now lodged between the seconds hand and the rehaut. I immediately pulled out the crown to stop the movement as to prevent any (further) damage. I sent Ginault an email this morning, so let's see how good their customer service is; based on what I've read, I shouldn't have any problems. I'll report back with my experience.
> 
> View attachment 12023410
> View attachment 12023418


Wow! That doesnt sound too good  but Ginault having your back I can assure you!

Sent from the north!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Yep, not good!

Do let us know how it goes with Ginault ...


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

lithographica said:


> Has anyone had issues with the applied hour markers falling off the dial? I did a search and couldn't find anything. As you can see in the pics below, the 4:00 hour marker fell off and is now lodged between the seconds hand and the rehaut. I immediately pulled out the crown to stop the movement as to prevent any (further) damage. I sent Ginault an email this morning, so let's see how good their customer service is; based on what I've read, I shouldn't have any problems. I'll report back with


Damn that sucks. How long have you had it? I had great experience with customer service when there were few specks on the dial(after owning it for 4 days), they replied right away with prepaid shipping label and I received a brand new watch a week later.

Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Lume shot. monster, ginault and ray raven 2

Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Ginseng108 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I tried to follow this thread. I read a total of about 35-40 pages throughout the 118 so far and I'm not really pulling it together. I just want to know two things if those who have been on this ride from the beginning can elaborate.
> 
> ...


1.In terms of reliability my particular example had been running consistently at +8 - +10 seconds per day. After my guy tuned it, it has been doing around +5 per day now. I cannot comment on longevity of the movement yet. I have only been wearing it for 5 months. My watchmaker did say the movement is very clean and professionally put together if it is not a Swiss movement then whoever assembled it knows what he is doing. Folks here have been providing feedback regarding Ginault's CS and it does seem like they stand behind their products. The fit and finish, and the overall completeness of the watch is bar non. I have a 116610LV and when wearing my OR on my wrist I do not feel like I am wearing a lesser piece. The quality is definitely up there with the big boys.

2. This is very subjective. Here is my observation from talking to different people.There are all kinds of different views regarding the value of a watch. Some people believe a homage in general should not cost this much. This group of people place originality and creativity above all the other aspects of a watch. I guess that's why brands like Seven F do so well.

Then you have your spec oriented folks. Mentality here is usually at $500-$800 mark a dive watch, homage or not, should have lume all over the watch like a Christmas tree, bracelet, sapphire crystal, and definitely a ceramic insert. So to this group of people any dive watch with a ceramic insert that costs less wins over the OR. The conversation usually sounds something like "you can get a Tisell or Steinhart for less than that with ceramic insert!" LOL

Then there are people like us who understand the value and quality the OR brings. For me, the reason why I bought a homage Sub is because this classic 5 digit Submariner style dive watch is EXACTLY what I am looking for. I don't care so much about the spec on paper but I care how well each component of the watch is made and put together. I care when I turn my bezel, the way it clicks and the feedback to my hand matches what I understand as good quality. I am a big fan of applied indices, I care when every time I turn my wrist to look at my watch I can actually admire the quality of the dial, the hands, the applied indices and enjoy the light reflecting off of it. So far I have not found another Sub homage with ability to re-create the Rolex applied indices dial to the level of what Ginault is doing. I care when I pick up my watch every morning to put on my wrist, I can tell this is an extremely fine made timepiece with good taste and elegantly goes with my shirt and tie.

I got the watch at the review discount which I have said over and over again is nothing but a steal for this kind of quality. Now knowing what I know, I would gladly pay retail for another one if discount is no longer available.


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## lithographica (May 15, 2017)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Damn that sucks. How long have you had it? I had great experience with customer service when there were few specks on the dial(after owning it for 4 days), they replied right away with prepaid shipping label and I received a brand new watch a week later.
> 
> Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


I had the watch for about 3 weeks. I got an email back from Ginault today, and like you, I got a prepaid shipping label and the promise that a new watch will be shipped out right away. Pretty impressed with the customer service so far!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

just saw in the review section an openbox of their 181270GSLN with the black insert. Looking nice. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/unboxing-ginault-ocean-rover-181270gsln-4393250.html


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## OCDRob (Apr 18, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> OCDRob said:
> 
> 
> > I just received my second Ginault OR, this time with a date and the blue and gold bezel.
> ...


Here is another pic. The blue is darker than the blue on the tt sub.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Navy blue?


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## OCDRob (Apr 18, 2016)

Ginseng108 said:


> Navy blue?


Maybe just a shade lighter than navy. Its a hard blue to categorize, it has its own unique look.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

OCDRob said:


> Here is another pic. The blue is darker than the blue on the tt sub.


There is a certain enigmatic ambiance of the blue and gold, looking very nice.


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## tcc6789 (Sep 21, 2011)

No doubt the Ginault Ocean Rover is a homage to the Rolex Submariner, but it really is a well made one. It puts a big smile on my face whenever I look at it.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Gotta save this one for the Christmas holiday!









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Vlance (Apr 12, 2014)

tcc6789 said:


> No doubt the Ginault Ocean Rover is a homage to the Rolex Submariner, but it really is a well made one. It puts a big smile on my face whenever I look at it.
> 
> View attachment 12050098
> 
> View attachment 12050106


Great photos....she looks great!


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

bolts40 said:


> Gotta save this one for the Christmas holiday!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did I miss something?
So there's a green one too now?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Seppia said:


> Did I miss something?
> So there's a green one too now?


No, I did that myself.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Vlance (Apr 12, 2014)

Seppia said:


> Did I miss something?
> So there's a green one too now?


It's the Christmas Rover... they couldn't wait till the holidays I guess


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Is the discount code still working?


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

You can email Ginault and they'll send you whatever codes work at the moment.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Out on the bike this chilly but refreshing morning with the OR along for the ride.

Still enjoying this watch so much.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

I wish they'd do a different handset to give me an excuse to buy another one. I know I could switch for any ETA hands, but then the lume would't match and my watch OCD wouldn't allow that 

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Jtragic said:


> I wish they'd do a different handset to give me an excuse to buy another one. I know I could switch for any ETA hands, but then the lume would't match and my watch OCD wouldn't allow that
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Yeah I've been hanging to buy another, after having had the original prototype in my cart at least 5 times and then bailing out, when I finally decide to pull the trigger I find that it's sold out.

Would go for the latest version with date and maxi style dial but I'm not sure on the blue/gold insert and the black is identical to mine but with date which just isn't different enough to justify the spend.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

59er said:


> Yeah I've been hanging to buy another, after having had the original prototype in my cart at least 5 times and then bailing out, when I finally decide to pull the trigger I find that it's sold out.
> 
> Would go for the latest version with date and maxi style dial but I'm not sure on the blue/gold insert and the black is identical to mine but with date which just isn't different enough to justify the spend.


I like the look of the blue/gold but you're right, it's not different enough. I also not a great fan of MilSub hands. What they really need to make is a GMT.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rawbaws (Jul 1, 2015)

mf1tym said:


> View attachment 12011034
> 
> 
> Noticed the guy next table was staring at the OR on my wrist during lunch. He finally came over and asked about the watch and asked if he could take a look. And he was very impressed with the quality, hand feel, and construction of the case, bezel assembly, and bracelet.
> ...


Genuine question and not trying to be disrespectful. Is that a illusion with the photo or is there black stuff or rust building up between the links of your bracelet?


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## Vlance (Apr 12, 2014)

rawbaws said:


> Genuine question and not trying to be disrespectful. Is that a illusion with the photo or is there black stuff or rust building up between the links of your bracelet?


Definitely not rust, but looks like our friend perhaps had a pretty sloppy lunch!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Very much doubt good quality 316 SS has rusted like that without serious chemical exposure. Nothing on mine.









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## Alpineboy (Apr 29, 2016)

rawbaws said:


> Genuine question and not trying to be disrespectful. Is that a illusion with the photo or is there black stuff or rust building up between the links of your bracelet?


Looks like reflection from the same light source as that reflecting off the crystal.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

rawbaws said:


> Genuine question and not trying to be disrespectful. Is that a illusion with the photo or is there black stuff or rust building up between the links of your bracelet?


I am glad you noticed. I have worn this watch almost daily since I got it 5-6 months ago. The Ocean Rover is seriously an all occasion watch for my life style. It goes well with a nice dress shirt for work or any formal occasion thanks to the superb craftsmanship. The watch just exudes quality and elegance. When John over at Ginault told me this over an email before I purchased it, I thought he was just saying things but it really is THAT good when I first unboxed it and held it in my hands. I was wowed.

At the same time since this is a homage of the Rolex Submariner, and Ginault directly compared the Ocean Rover with the Rolex Subs in their own writing, I thought I'd put the durability part to the test as well. I wear it jogging, swimming, mountain biking, surfing, and kiting. The black stuff you see in between the links is most likely a mixture of sweat, dirt, sunscreen residue, ocean water, and other elements from mother earth. =) It does come off easy with a toothpick and some tissue paper.

Here is my OR with me at another kiting session over the weekend.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> I am glad you noticed. I have worn this watch almost daily since I got it 5-6 months ago. The Ocean Rover is seriously an all occasion watch for my life style. It goes well with a nice dress shirt for work or any formal occasion thanks to the superb craftsmanship. The watch just exudes quality and elegance. When John over at Ginault told me this over an email before I purchased it, I thought he was just saying things but it really is THAT good when I first unboxed it and held it in my hands. I was wowed.
> 
> At the same time since this is a homage of the Rolex Submariner, and Ginault directly compared the Ocean Rover with the Rolex Subs in their own writing, I thought I'd put the durability part to the test as well. I wear it jogging, swimming, mountain biking, surfing, and kiting. The black stuff you see in between the links is most likely a mixture of sweat, dirt, sunscreen residue, ocean water, and other elements from mother earth. =) It does come off easy with a toothpick and some tissue paper.
> 
> ...


Mate buy yourself an ultrasonic cleaner, a minute to remove the bracelet from the watch head and into the cleaner for another minute whilst you're cleaning the head and back on in a jiffy, looks clean, smells clean and no more ugly black stuff.

I bought mine for under $50 and it does the business.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Oh so now the original no date maxi dial is sold out?
Impressive how few pop up on the secondary market, if Ginault doesn't produce another run (or if they do but offer a smaller discount), prices may well be going up. 
I've owned mine for a while now and the value for money is incredible, this should be a $900-1000 watch at least.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Has anybody tried to change out the bracelet with a Rubber B strap onto the Ocean Rover?


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Seppia said:


> Oh so now the original no date maxi dial is sold out?
> Impressive how few pop up on the secondary market, if Ginault doesn't produce another run (or if they do but offer a smaller discount), prices may well be going up.
> I've owned mine for a while now and the value for money is incredible, this should be a $900-1000 watch at least.


The original OR looks to still be available. As far as I can tell, it's the two prototypes that are sold out.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Arrived 5 minutes ago. I'm in love.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Seppia said:


> Oh so now the original no date maxi dial is sold out?
> Impressive how few pop up on the secondary market, if Ginault doesn't produce another run (or if they do but offer a smaller discount), prices may well be going up.
> I've owned mine for a while now and the value for money is incredible, this should be a $900-1000 watch at least.


My fave is still the OG OR.
Its just to good of a piece for me.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mf1tym said:


> I am glad you noticed. I have worn this watch almost daily since I got it 5-6 months ago. The Ocean Rover is seriously an all occasion watch for my life style. It goes well with a nice dress shirt for work or any formal occasion thanks to the superb craftsmanship. The watch just exudes quality and elegance. When John over at Ginault told me this over an email before I purchased it, I thought he was just saying things but it really is THAT good when I first unboxed it and held it in my hands. I was wowed.
> 
> At the same time since this is a homage of the Rolex Submariner, and Ginault directly compared the Ocean Rover with the Rolex Subs in their own writing, I thought I'd put the durability part to the test as well. I wear it jogging, swimming, mountain biking, surfing, and kiting. The black stuff you see in between the links is most likely a mixture of sweat, dirt, sunscreen residue, ocean water, and other elements from mother earth. =) It does come off easy with a toothpick and some tissue paper.
> 
> ...


I may be the odd one, but I actually really like seeing the watch being used as a "sports watch" should be. While I appreciate Radar keeping his example pristine (all the better for his great pictures), I've also worn mine fairly consistently since purchasing in January. Other than typical bracelet and clasp scuffs, everything is working perfectly.

Do you give yours a good fresh water rinse after ocean use? It's a habit I got into as a diver and I still do it for my watch after surfing. I rinse the watch and spin the bezel to make certain I get all the sand and salt out of the mechanism.

The things I worry about for a surf watch are the bezel click spring (as I think they are made from tempered steel and therefore can rust) and the spring bar springs. The bars used by Ginault seem like quality items, but I've had others fail before, so I am cautious of them.

Personally, I think surfing is much harder on a watch than diving. With surfing, you are always in the surf zone with churned up sand in the water, not to mention the potential for impacts. FWIW, I almost always wear my surfing watches on a NATO-style strap just to give me a little extra level of security.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

GodZji said:


> Arrived 5 minutes ago. I'm in love.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking nice! Is that your Sub 16610 in the back?


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> Looking nice! Is that your Sub 16610 in the back?


My 16610 is taking some vacation time. Lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Just arrived, very impressive!


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Well said sir, well said ! ??


mf1tym said:


> 1.In terms of reliability my particular example had been running consistently at +8 - +10 seconds per day. After my guy tuned it, it has been doing around +5 per day now. I cannot comment on longevity of the movement yet. I have only been wearing it for 5 months. My watchmaker did say the movement is very clean and professionally put together if it is not a Swiss movement then whoever assembled it knows what he is doing. Folks here have been providing feedback regarding Ginault's CS and it does seem like they stand behind their products. The fit and finish, and the overall completeness of the watch is bar non. I have a 116610LV and when wearing my OR on my wrist I do not feel like I am wearing a lesser piece. The quality is definitely up there with the big boys.
> 
> 2. This is very subjective. Here is my observation from talking to different people.There are all kinds of different views regarding the value of a watch. Some people believe a homage in general should not cost this much. This group of people place originality and creativity above all the other aspects of a watch. I guess that's why brands like Seven F do so well.
> 
> ...


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Gotta say... Kudos to you for using it THE way it was meant to be !!! Respect for all that take care of their ladies (watches) but it is truly a great experience to see that are some not afraid to use them as they are intended: tools !

Cheers.

Brother G. 


mf1tym said:


> I am glad you noticed. I have worn this watch almost daily since I got it 5-6 months ago. The Ocean Rover is seriously an all occasion watch for my life style. It goes well with a nice dress shirt for work or any formal occasion thanks to the superb craftsmanship. The watch just exudes quality and elegance. When John over at Ginault told me this over an email before I purchased it, I thought he was just saying things but it really is THAT good when I first unboxed it and held it in my hands. I was wowed.
> 
> At the same time since this is a homage of the Rolex Submariner, and Ginault directly compared the Ocean Rover with the Rolex Subs in their own writing, I thought I'd put the durability part to the test as well. I wear it jogging, swimming, mountain biking, surfing, and kiting. The black stuff you see in between the links is most likely a mixture of sweat, dirt, sunscreen residue, ocean water, and other elements from mother earth. =) It does come off easy with a toothpick and some tissue paper.
> 
> ...


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh, and btw I owned one... But she is way better company now with a great friend ! Fantastic watch with great quality at at great price.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I normaly prefer bracelets and the Ginault bracelet is a beauty but I felt like a change and the Milsub styling lends itself perfectly to a nice leather strap so fitted this today for a change.


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## jametoo (May 29, 2016)

Does anyone know what the magnification factor of the Cyclops is?


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

jametoo said:


> Does anyone know what the magnification factor of the Cyclops is?


I don't know the magnification factor but it looks like the same as my Rolex submariner.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

jametoo said:


> Does anyone know what the magnification factor of the Cyclops is?


If as per Rollie as noted by GodZji then I believe it would be x2.5.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

GodZji said:


> I don't know the magnification factor but it looks like the same as my Rolex submariner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is one gorgeous piece you got there. It looks 2.5 to me.

Ginault really knocked it out of the park with their Ocean Rovers. Before the Ocean Rover, my impression on Sub homages were pretty linear, you get the looks of the original but you take a dive in the quality department comparing to the original. When I say quality, I am not just talking about the durability alone, you can get a $20 Japanese movement to run as long as the 3135, but also the fit and finish, the quality of each metal part produced, and the watchmaker who built it. The Ocean Rover has really changed the stereotype I had of a Sub homage, and I am happy to see a new player in the scene that upped the ante and stirred the pot that was long overdue.

I really am beginning to think when buying a Rolex, how much of it were going towards the quality and craftsmanship and how much of it went into paying for the brand's history, pedigree, and vanity. Don't get me wrong Rolex Sub is one hell of a fine piece with the legendary 3135 inside. But cannot help to wonder now.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Nalco said:


> A simple question in my mind: If they can manufacture the case and assemble movements in house, why homage? Just launch sth authentic and original, and deserve a wild applause!


My guess is that there is a huge market for Sub homages, if you make the watch nice then people will buy. The market for original design on the other hand really depends on your ability to come up with a design that can appeal to the mass market. That is a harder job than cloning a design and making sure it is executed nicely.

I guess that's why top designers get paid more than top engineers and craftsmans.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> My guess is that there is a huge market for Sub homages, if you make the watch nice then people will buy. The market for original design on the other hand really depends on your ability to come up with a design that can appeal to the mass market. That is a harder job than cloning a design and making sure it is executed nicely.
> 
> I guess that's why top designers get paid more than top engineers and craftsmans.


Sad but true. I'm a hybrid design engineer. Lol

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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I am hoping for a field style 3 6 9 watch with shinny fixed bezel and sword hands. Some sort of mix of military, field, rolex explorer and tudor black bay 36/41 plain simple 40mm with glidelock


Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GodZji said:


> Sad but true. I'm a hybrid design engineer. Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I suspect that as with many of the smaller brands the Homages will be the initial offerings until the brand builds it's reputation and then they will introduce original designs such as Squale, Mk11 and Steinhart have done.

I look forward to what Ginault will produce in the future.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I am hoping for a field style 3 6 9 watch with shinny fixed bezel and sword hands. Some sort of mix of military, field, rolex explorer and tudor black bay 36/41 plain simple 40mm with glidelock
> 
> Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


Count me in!!! I want one too.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

59er said:


> I suspect that as with many of the smaller brands the Homages will be the initial offerings until the brand builds it's reputation and then they will introduce original designs such as Squale, Mk11 and Steinhart have done.
> 
> I look forward to what Ginault will produce in the future.


What are MKII "original" designs? I can't think of any.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Seppia said:


> What are MKII "original" designs? I can't think of any.


I'd question the inclusion of Squale as well. Squale is almost backward in their homage production. They made a number of original designs (still do, actually) but only fairly recently introduced their sub homages. IMO (I obviously don't have access to their financials) this was done to generate revenue, and do it quickly. Squale recognized Sub homages sell.

I keep coming back to the idea that despite all the fuss here early on, Ginault did things right in their product introduction process. They picked a relatively safe bet design wise, provided very good quality and service, and set an introductory price that represented a good value. Their only request was for an honest consumer review.

The reviews I've seen have been some of the most thorough I've ever read on any forum, with case backs being removed, bezels disassembled and very detailed inspections by knowledgeable enthusiasts. Great work.

Contrast Ginault with a brand such as Monta who went the traditional marketing route, set their prices at the absolute high end of the micro market, and are now slashing their prices by 50%.

i hope both companies survive and continue producing great watches, but from a financial standpoint I'd think Ginault is much stronger at this stage than Monta.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> I keep coming back to the idea that despite all the fuss here early on, Ginault did things right in their product introduction process. They picked a relatively safe bet design wise, provided very good quality and service, and set an introductory price that represented a good value. Their only request was for an honest consumer review.


Absolutely agree. 
I was very vocally against Ginault at the beginning. 
They have proven me wrong and I admitted my mistake. 
I still have a few doubts about their past dealings, but their product is superb and their customer service impeccable.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I keep coming back to the idea that despite all the fuss here early on, Ginault did things right in their product introduction process. They picked a relatively safe bet design wise, provided very good quality and service, and set an introductory price that represented a good value. Their only request was for an honest consumer review.


+1. I'm anxiously awaiting my 181270GLSN right now, having already purchased a 180165C1LN from Ginault and a gently used 181070GSLN off E


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

Mayonaise said:


> +1. I'm anxiously awaiting my 181270GLSN right now, having already purchased a 180165C1LN from Ginault and a gently used 181070GSLN off E


Sorry for the Textus Interruptus. I'm a newb and having troubles pasting responses. As I was saying ... I'm anxiously awaiting my 181270GLSN right now, having already purchase the 18165C1LN from Ginault and a gently used 18070GSLN off EBay. I plan to do a review when the 181270GLSN arrives.


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Sigh, beautiful watch but sadly too small for me. Now if they offered the white indices, no date in 42 or even better 44mm, I'd be in, in a heartbeat.


"Expecto Inopinatum"


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Mayonaise said:


> Sorry for the Textus Interruptus. I'm a newb and having troubles pasting responses. As I was saying ... I'm anxiously awaiting my 181270GLSN right now, having already purchase the 18165C1LN from Ginault and a gently used 18070GSLN off EBay. I plan to do a review when the 181270GLSN arrives.


That would be quite an impressive display with three Ocean Rovers. Are you going to keep all three? Or is thinking of selling one/two ?


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> That would be quite an impressive display with three Ocean Rovers. Are you going to keep all three? Or is thinking of selling one/two ?


I can't wait to see that!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Red PeeKay said:


> Sigh, beautiful watch but sadly too small for me. Now if they offered the white indices, no date in 42 or even better 44mm, I'd be in, in a heartbeat.
> 
> "Expecto Inopinatum"


This is an interesting idea. Correct me if i am wrong but many micros with Sub homage started out with the more modern 42mm releases than move down to the classic 40MM like what Steihart is doing.

Ginualt on the other hand started with the classic 40mm case. I wondering if they would tackle into the larger size market later.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> This is an interesting idea. Correct me if i am wrong but many micros with Sub homage started out with the more modern 42mm releases than move down to the classic 40MM like what Steihart is doing.
> 
> Ginualt on the other hand started with the classic 40mm case. I wondering if they would tackle into the larger size market later.


I don't want to see them go that route but eventually it will happen.

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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> That would be quite an impressive display with three Ocean Rovers. Are you going to keep all three? Or is thinking of selling one/two ?


Yes. I'm keeping all three.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

GodZji said:


> I don't want to see them go that route but eventually it will happen.


I'd love to see Ginault come out with a blue sunburst dial. I have several sub homages: Davosa, Invicta, and Squale. Ever since I got my Ocean Rovers, the other watches have stayed on the winders except for my Squale Atmos 20 Blue Ray because I dig the dial so much. If Ginault made an OC with a blue sunburst face, my Blue Ray would probably get retired as well.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Mayonaise said:


> Yes. I'm keeping all three.


Pictures please.

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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I thought I'd share some pictures of my OR on an Everest rubber strap (4/5 links) for the Rolex 16610. As you can see, it fits the Ginault clasp nicely.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

GodZji said:


> Pictures please.


You'll definitely get photos. My new OR is due to arrive tomorrow, and I plan to post pics soon after that.


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## SDGenius (May 30, 2014)




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## mbnv992 (Sep 20, 2009)

I've spent over 2 days going over EVERY post in this 124 page thread haha All I can say is I'm absolutely interested in this Ginault Ocean Rover ! I've seen nothing but positive reviews on this watch. 

I've also had several emails with John at Ginault and he told me they are in the works of coming out with a new Ocean Rover with a date cyclops and a maxi-dial as well that should be out later this year. I will hands down buy that watch. 
How is everyone liking their Ginaults so far ? 
Oh and I must say, John over at Ginault has EXCELLENT customer serivce and great communication. He returns my emails promptly and answers all of my questions. I'd definitely buy a watch from this company.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Buy one...you won't be sorry!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mbnv992 said:


> I've spent over 2 days going over EVERY post in this 124 page thread haha All I can say is I'm absolutely interested in this Ginault Ocean Rover ! I've seen nothing but positive reviews on this watch.
> 
> I've also had several emails with John at Ginault and he told me they are in the works of coming out with a new Ocean Rover with a date cyclops and a maxi-dial as well that should be out later this year. I will hands down buy that watch.
> How is everyone liking their Ginaults so far ?
> Oh and I must say, John over at Ginault has EXCELLENT customer serivce and great communication. He returns my emails promptly and answers all of my questions. I'd definitely buy a watch from this company.


The watch finishing looks even better to me now than when I first laid eyes on it. And that's saying something. Go for it.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

mbnv992 said:


> I've spent over 2 days going over EVERY post in this 124 page thread haha All I can say is I'm absolutely interested in this Ginault Ocean Rover ! I've seen nothing but positive reviews on this watch.
> 
> I've also had several emails with John at Ginault and he told me they are in the works of coming out with a new Ocean Rover with a date cyclops and a maxi-dial as well that should be out later this year. I will hands down buy that watch.
> How is everyone liking their Ginaults so far ?
> Oh and I must say, John over at Ginault has EXCELLENT customer serivce and great communication. He returns my emails promptly and answers all of my questions. I'd definitely buy a watch from this company.


You won't be disappointed.

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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

It's insane that the cyclops non maxi date version has been selling preowned on Ebay for like $1200. Definitely a solid piece.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Spikedlee said:


> It's insane that the cyclops non maxi date version has been selling preowned on Ebay for like $1200. Definitely a solid piece.


You need to see it in real life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

mbnv992 said:


> How is everyone liking their Ginaults so far ?
> Oh and I must say, John over at Ginault has EXCELLENT customer serivce and great communication. He returns my emails promptly and answers all of my questions. I'd definitely buy a watch from this company.


The ocean rover is phenomenal. 
I have the first no date maxi dial and it gets a ton of wrist time. 
As I have said in my review, it is easily worth the full sticker price, to have bought it discounted feels like robbery, it's that good.

I really wish they came out with new designs: I'm sure they would do a great job and would love to pick up a second one from them.

Something in the style of the 36mm explorer 1 or the 40mm explorer 2 would be amazing, but I would imagine we are going to see many Sub style models first.

Ginault is basically the Anti-MKII:
They both do Rolex homages, only John is responsive and works hard, his watches are stunning but still moderately priced and when you see pictures of a new model it means you can actually buy it. 
Right away!
Kind of like a ready to wear project that's actually ready to wear and assembled in the USA.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mbnv992 said:


> I've spent over 2 days going over EVERY post in this 124 page thread haha All I can say is I'm absolutely interested in this Ginault Ocean Rover ! I've seen nothing but positive reviews on this watch.
> 
> I've also had several emails with John at Ginault and he told me they are in the works of coming out with a new Ocean Rover with a date cyclops and a maxi-dial as well that should be out later this year. I will hands down buy that watch.
> How is everyone liking their Ginaults so far ?
> Oh and I must say, John over at Ginault has EXCELLENT customer serivce and great communication. He returns my emails promptly and answers all of my questions. I'd definitely buy a watch from this company.


I'm glad to hear this as a maxi with date and cyclops is exactly what I've been wanting as my second Ginault, can't wait.

And yes I've been loving my OR and am definitely a fan.



Seppia said:


> The ocean rover is phenomenal.
> I have the first no date maxi dial and it gets a ton of wrist time.
> As I have said in my review, it is easily worth the full sticker price, to have bought it discounted feels like robbery, it's that good.
> 
> ...


Yep I loved some of the MK11 offerings but missed out on the original batches and after being on their mail list for years and still none of the models having become available again I have now given up altogether on them.

Many become desperate and pay over the top prices on the used market or put down long term deposits with delivery dates uncertain when certain watches become difficult to obtain but I'm afraid I won't jump on that bandwagon when there are so many options and new ones coming all the time which is why the Ginaults are so attractive at the moment.

My OR this morning.


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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

GodZji said:


> You need to see it in real life.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh I have I own one


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> Buy one...you won't be sorry!


+1 This. I just received my third one yesterday. That should tell you something.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

I received my third Ocean Rover yesterday! It's the 181270GLSN, and it's a beauty!

The 181270GLSN on the wrist:








The 181270GLSN close up:








The 181270GLSN with the siblings:


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Mayonaise said:


> I received my third Ocean Rover yesterday! It's the 181270GLSN, and it's a beauty!
> 
> The 181270GLSN on the wrist:
> View attachment 12227154
> ...


OMG!!!!!!! So nice!!!!

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## Narc'd (Feb 22, 2012)

I like the Ginault watches but they're out of my price range. I really like the 40mm size. I'm not sure exactly what the initial error they made was - the "made in America" thing - but it seems a bit naive of them not knowing the rules that they have to play by regarding the wording. That's sorted now, right?

Something that doesn't sit right with me is them stating on their website that the Ocean Rover is an "ISO6425 Diver's Watch" yet when you read their blog under the "Crystal & Dial" heading they have written:



> By increasing the thickness of Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal from 1.8mm to 3.1mm, plus with the computer aided design software calculated the surface curvature, the maximum depth Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal can withstand is 1,220 meters underwater in computer simulations. However, the actual testing equipment our supplier has could only simulate water pressure up to 1,000 feet. Nonetheless, Ginault 30.4 Dome crystal's real world test in our supplier's testing chamber went with flying colors at 1,000 feet.
> Until we conduct our tests in a more sophisticated institute, we put 1,000 ft / 300 m on the face of the watch.


As we know, all of the watches have to be tested to 1250 feet as part of the ISO6425 125% overpressure test. They cannot test them to only 1000 feet and just stick that on the dial, then claim ISO6425. Is this just another case of naivety? I put this to them in an email to the address on their website - service at ginault.com - on the 24th of April and they never replied to me on the matter.

I don't actually care if their watches are ISO tested or not - that's not the issue, the watches seem to be of great quality an everyone seems to give them rave reviews. The issue is claiming one thing in one place, then contradicting them in another. If they don't test them then all they have to do is drop putting the "ISO Diver's Watch" line in the watch's specifications.

What do you guys think?


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

I received my Ocean Rover 101070GSLN this week. My first submariner style diver (also recently picked up the Oris sixty Five 42). Very impressed with build quality and feel of the watch! John at customer service was awesome to communicate with and offered me a discount even though there are no currently active discount codes. After receiving the watch I reached out to John to tell him I loved the quality of the fabric strap that came with the watch and asked if he could let me know who produced it so I could get some in different colors. He advised me the manufacture they use doesn't sell direct to consumers, but they have a military green strap coming soon and that they'll send me one for free when they arrive. Couldn't be happier with the customer support!

Have done one accuracy check using toolwatch.io. Running -4.4 spd (as a side note my Oris is running at +1.9 spd)


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

Hi guys. Where is the best place to buy one? Any discounts I can take advantage of? thanks


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

rogt said:


> Hi guys. Where is the best place to buy one? Any discounts I can take advantage of? thanks


Hi rogt. The only place I know of that sells them is GINAULT web site (ginault dot com). You can inquire about discounts by sending an e-mail to the e-mail address at the very bottom of the web site's home page.


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## mbnv992 (Sep 20, 2009)

That's awesome ! 

A little background on my watch collection - I've always been a huge diver watch fan. Bought my first Rolex ( a 16610 ) brand new back in 2002. I now have an Omega Bond 2531.80, and a Rolex DSSD. For my "****ter" watches I have a Tiger Concepts 6538 big crown, Seiko 009, and a few others. I've always love Rolex Sub homeages, even though I do in fact own Rolex dive watches, it's nice to see what other companies can put together.
The Tiger Concepts is really my first "homage" watch. And it's good for what it is. $160 watch with a Chinese movement which is surprisingly accurate. When I saw the Ginault watches, I really loved the design, and something tells me it looks and feels even better in person. My goal is to get a watch that I can just throw on my wrist and not worry about it scratching, or whatever while my expensive watches don't get all beat up. 

Anyway, sorry for the long drown on post, but I really appreciate all the feedback. And I do understand this is quite a controversial watch to say the least haha but I'm willing to give them a shot ( when that new model comes out later on ). The lume, and mil sub hands, and true to original Sub design is what drew me to this watch. I just wish it had a signed clasp.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

You'll love the Ginault, I'm sure. 
Only thing, allow me to disagree with your "****ter" definition of the Seiko SKX009, it's a legendary watch!


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

Woke up early today for this. 
Happy Sunday everyone!!










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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

GodZji said:


> Woke up early today for this.
> Happy Sunday everyone!!
> 
> https://uploads.tapatalk
> ...


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

When I first saw this watch I was torn between the white lumed date with cyclops and the no-date sand lumed versions simply as my Grail watch is a 16610 date Sub and I'm just used to seeing that style but went for this version as it just had that "different" look about it.

At first I wasn't happy with the red second hand and did consider changing it out but with every day I like this watch more and more and now find the all white lume and all silver hand set a touch less interesting than this version with the multiple colors.

Whilst enjoying a coffee this morning I tried to capture the glistening indices and the golden lume against the dial but I only have my phone camera and after a dozen shots I just couldn't catch the visual in the shot so this is the best I can offer.

Crazy how a watch can become such an obsession and prompt us to take many pics and make these posts and return to the thread daily to see what else there is to feed our obsession.

Glad to be able to have somewhere to come and share my thoughts and pics even when so many will think me/us a touch demented.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

59er said:


> When I first saw this watch I was torn between the white lumed date with cyclops and the no-date sand lumed versions simply as my Grail watch is a 16610 date Sub and I'm just used to seeing that style but went for this version as it just had that "different" look about it.
> 
> At first I wasn't happy with the red second hand and did consider changing it out but with every day I like this watch more and more and now find the all white lume and all silver hand set a touch less interesting than this version with the multiple colors.


I'm with you. I had it in my head I wanted a date with cyclops. First, I think the desire for a date magnifier was a hold-over from when I first started having to use reading glasses and got tired of taking them on and off. Second, the date with cyclops just has more of that classic Rolex vibe in my mind. But I now wear progressive lenses full time and don't really need the date magnifier. And after I've had the opportunity to wear the versions with the gold sand lume, maxi dials and no cyclops, I'm actually more partial to those than than the one I have with a cyclops. I love the domed crystal on the ones without the cyclops. I also love the red second hand, the gold sand lume, and the larger indices. A Ginault OR is a true beauty to behold, and the quality is impeccable. I find myself looking down at the Ginault I'm wearing and admiring it throughout the day. For me, photos can't compare with actually wearing one and seeing it in person.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Narc'd said:


> As we know, all of the watches have to be tested to 1250 feet as part of the ISO6425 125% overpressure test. They cannot test them to only 1000 feet and just stick that on the dial, then claim ISO6425. Is this just another case of naivety?


Naivety, or deliberately pushing the envelope on marketing claims, who knows? I can certainly understand those who want to stay away from Ginault on this basis.

But the facts (they don't test the watches to 125% overpressure) are clearly stated. Anyone who really cares about the ISO standard has the facts available. So, for me, it's no big deal. YMMV.


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Good morning from Emerald Isle NC


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Just received the military green strap from Ginault. I think it looks awesome on the watch. Unfortunately the band is too long of me. My wrist is 6.7 inches and I'm on the smallest hole with way too much strap sticking out the other side. I'm going to try and find a shorter strap of the same style as I love the look.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

bjn74 said:


> View attachment 12268826
> 
> Just received the military green strap from Ginault. I think it looks awesome on the watch. Unfortunately the band is too long of me. My wrist is 6.7 inches and I'm on the smallest hole with way too much strap sticking out the other side. I'm going to try and find a shorter strap of the same style as I love the look.


Its Nylon, you can just cut it off and heat seal it. I do this with most my NATOs

Instagram - @ducka_diesel_watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

^^^ I think these are double layer nylon with sewn / finished edges (at least the tan version included with my Ginault is designed this way). He won't be able to cut it.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> ^^^ I think these are double layer nylon with sewn / finished edges (at least the tan version included with my Ginault is designed this way). He won't be able to cut it.


Yeah - it's the exact same as the tan that came with the watch, just in green. Great quality!


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mayonaise said:


> [
> I'm with you. I had it in my head I wanted a date with cyclops. First, I think the desire for a date magnifier was a hold-over from when I first started having to use reading glasses and got tired of taking them on and off. Second, the date with cyclops just has more of that classic Rolex vibe in my mind. But I now wear progressive lenses full time and don't really need the date magnifier. And after I've had the opportunity to wear the versions with the gold sand lume, maxi dials and no cyclops, I'm actually more partial to those than than the one I have with a cyclops. I love the domed crystal on the ones without the cyclops. I also love the red second hand, the gold sand lume, and the larger indices. A Ginault OR is a true beauty to behold, and the quality is impeccable. I find myself looking down at the Ginault I'm wearing and admiring it throughout the day. For me, photos can't compare with actually wearing one and seeing it in person.


Mayonaise, My second Ginault should have shipped today (hopefully). I currently have one of the prototype gold sand lume with date models, without the maxi dial. When I originally ordered, I wanted the maxi dial with date but it wasn't available. Now it is and that's what's on the way. Just curious if you prefer the maxi dial with date over the smaller indices, since you have both. I always thought the hands and indices were a little too small for the dial. However, I do appreciate that the size is more proportional to the classic subs. I am hoping once I have them both in hand making the decision will be easy, as I can only keep one.

Here is a photo edit I did with my watch vs a sub and you can see the indices are very similar in size. But I think the maxi dial modernizes it a little bit. Just looking for opinions. 
The second pic is my watch vs a maxi with date in the same perspective.


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

I hope I pick the Right one.










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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

The glidelock on mine has gone a bit "coarse" in that it won't move smoothly, especially around the sweet spot for my wrist. Has anybody experienced this before? What's the recommended thing to do?
I've never owned or used a glidelock bracelet before and I'm afraid to break it if I apply too much force.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Dunzdeck said:


> The glidelock on mine has gone a bit "coarse" in that it won't move smoothly, especially around the sweet spot for my wrist. Has anybody experienced this before? What's the recommended thing to do?
> I've never owned or used a glidelock bracelet before and I'm afraid to break it if I apply too much force.


Maybe you have something stuck in there? Mine actually smoothed out after some use.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Dunzdeck said:


> The glidelock on mine has gone a bit "coarse" in that it won't move smoothly, especially around the sweet spot for my wrist. Has anybody experienced this before? What's the recommended thing to do?
> I've never owned or used a glidelock bracelet before and I'm afraid to break it if I apply too much force.


No don't force it as the parts are cast so have very little wiggle room, as noted by biscuit141 there may be some crud in there somewhere binding things up.

I'd remove the bracelet give the whole thing a spa treatment with ultrasoninc if you've got one then babyoil the whole thing.


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## lithographica (May 15, 2017)

Just want to update with my experience with Ginault customer service. I sent John an email explaining the issue and he replied within 24 hours with a prepaid return shipping label. In his response, he expressed that he hadn't had someone report this issue before and wanted the master watchmaker to inspect my watch. I shipped the watch back and received a replacement within the week. The new watch came with some of deep scratches on one of the bracelet links, but I ended up removing them anyway, so I wasn't upset; just something worth noting. While I haven't been floored by the QC, I have absolutely zero complaints with Ginault's customer service. Unless I run into another major issue with my watch, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Ginault timepiece (fingers crossed for a GMT).


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## GodZji (Jan 31, 2011)

lithographica said:


> Just want to update with my experience with Ginault customer service. I sent John an email explaining the issue and he replied within 24 hours with a prepaid return shipping label. In his response, he expressed that he hadn't had someone report this issue before and wanted the master watchmaker to inspect my watch. I shipped the watch back and received a replacement within the week. The new watch came with some of deep scratches on one of the bracelet links, but I ended up removing them anyway, so I wasn't upset; just something worth noting. While I haven't been floored by the QC, I have absolutely zero complaints with Ginault's customer service. Unless I run into another major issue with my watch, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Ginault timepiece (fingers crossed for a GMT).


Would you mind sharing the problem you have with you watch?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GodZji said:


> Would you mind sharing the problem you have with you watch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Indice fell off.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...over-181070gsln-3860842-118.html#post42519642


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## morrijef (Apr 24, 2017)

Did you see armand the watch guy review of an or with white lume... not released yet

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Happy Independence Day!


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

morrijef said:


> Did you see armand the watch guy review of an or with white lume... not released yet
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Link?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Seppia said:


> Link?







Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Interesting this new unreleased version.
I still prefer the original piece they dropped.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks! I may be selling my OR soon to get this maxi dial no date with white lume. 
The fake vintage lume is the only thing I don't like on my OR


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

morrijef said:


> Did you see armand the watch guy review of an or with white lume... not released yet
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk





Knoc said:


> Interesting this new unreleased version.
> I still prefer the original piece they dropped.





Seppia said:


> Thanks! I may be selling my OR soon to get this maxi dial no date with white lume.
> The fake vintage lume is the only thing I don't like on my OR


Yes I kicked myself for missing out on the original 180165C1LN as I did prefer the white lume but held off as I really prefer a maxi dial and hand size.

After going with the standard no-date sand-lume maxi I have actually found the sand-lume to give real character to the watch BUT I am hoping for a white lumed date Maxi with cyclops which I will add to my collection but won't be selling my current OR anytime soon.

It has been noted that a maxi with date and cyclops is on the cards but final config has not yet been finalized.

Looking forward to that one.


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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

59er said:


> No don't force it as the parts are cast so have very little wiggle room, as noted by biscuit141 there may be some crud in there somewhere binding things up.
> 
> I'd remove the bracelet give the whole thing a spa treatment with ultrasoninc if you've got one then babyoil the whole thing.


I don't have an ultrasonic but I'll try giving it a bit of the old water and soap treatment to start with. It's not even that "stuck", just a little coarser than one might expect for the name "glidelock". Thanks!


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

When's a GMT coming?

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

Wish they came witg ceramic bezel. Is paying full price on the official site the only way to buy this?

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

Question for you guys regarding the bezel. I've had two ORs (one was returned and exchanged) and both have quite a bit of play in the bezel, both back and forth and up and down when pressing on it. I've read on various reveiws, and from Ginault directly, that to turn the bezel one must first press down. However, both watches I've owned have had bezels that can turn without doing this. Is that normal? I just saw a review that stated the bezel doesn't turn at all unless pressed down, and this was not the case in both that I've had.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

DiegoCastellanos said:


> Question for you guys regarding the bezel. I've had two ORs (one was returned and exchanged) and both have quite a bit of play in the bezel, both back and forth and up and down when pressing on it. I've read on various reveiws, and from Ginault directly, that to turn the bezel one must first press down. However, both watches I've owned have had bezels that can turn without doing this. Is that normal? I just saw a review that stated the bezel doesn't turn at all unless pressed down, and this was not the case in both that I've had.


That's normal. You should be able to still turn the bezel assembly without pressing it down but the action won't be as smooth but still doable.

I think OR's bezel assembly design follows the the classic air-lock mechanism that is found on the classic Rolex Sub. In theory it is suppose to completely lock up without pressing it down to turn. However, in practice many 16610 Sub owners reported that they can still turn the bezel without pressing it down. I guess it was a good idea but hard to implement in practice and that's why the new 6 digit Sub's bezel assembly design moved away from the air-lock design.


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## Syrjetdriver (Mar 20, 2014)

Hello Everyone,

I recently purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover 181070GSLN and have had it for 2 weeks. I have a collection of 10 watches and must say I am very impressed with the quality of the Ginault. The fit and finish are first rate. The bezel on my watch rotates positively and smoothly with slight downward pressure on the ring and has no backlash. I recently sold a Grand Seiko Snowflake which is known to have an outstanding finish. The Ginault definitely holds its own. For 21 years I wore a Breitling Aerospace as my work watch. I am an Airline Pilot and am hard on a watch in the cockpit. I am constantly banging it on either a iPad holder, the seat frame or the pedestal. Last year I finally bought an Explorer II and that has become my everyday work watch. Even with the 904L steel in the Rolex it takes a beating. I just finished a 4-day trip and I wore the Ginault for the entire trip. The lume is outstanding in the cockpit! Since receiving the watch 2 weeks ago it is running about +2 secs a day. I tried to take a pic of it next to our GPS clock but the glare was so bad I didn't get a good shot. I was pleasantly surprised that after 4 days in the cockpit I did not scratch the watch. I recently put a 4mm scratch on the crystal of my Super Ocean moving the cockpit seat forward, have not had that watch back at work since. The glidelock on the Ginault is a welcome feature for me, I could be in the Caribbean one day and see snow the next, I love the ability to make a micro adjustment on the 'fly' So far I have been extremely happy with the Ginault, as soon as the BGW9 lume is available I will without a doubt buy another Ginault. Here are a few pics from my office....


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rogt said:


> Wish they came witg ceramic bezel. Is paying full price on the official site the only way to buy this?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


Contact them and ask if there are any current discounts available.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Syrjetdriver said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I recently purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover 181070GSLN and have had it for 2 weeks. I have a collection of 10 watches and must say I am very impressed with the quality of the Ginault. The fit and finish are first rate. The bezel on my watch rotates positively and smoothly with slight downward pressure on the ring and has no backlash. I recently sold a Grand Seiko Snowflake which is known to have an outstanding finish. The Ginault definitely holds its own. For 21 years I wore a Breitling Aerospace as my work watch. I am an Airline Pilot and am hard on a watch in the cockpit. I am constantly banging it on either a iPad holder, the seat frame or the pedestal. Last year I finally bought an Explorer II and that has become my everyday work watch. Even with the 904L steel in the Rolex it takes a beating. I just finished a 4-day trip and I wore the Ginault for the entire trip. The lume is outstanding in the cockpit! Since receiving the watch 2 weeks ago it is running about +2 secs a day. I tried to take a pic of it next to our GPS clock but the glare was so bad I didn't get a good shot. I was pleasantly surprised that after 4 days in the cockpit I did not scratch the watch. I recently put a 4mm scratch on the crystal of my Super Ocean moving the cockpit seat forward, have not had that watch back at work since. The glidelock on the Ginault is a welcome feature for me, I could be in the Caribbean one day and see snow the next, I love the ability to make a micro adjustment on the 'fly' So far I have been extremely happy with the Ginault, as soon as the BGW9 lume is available I will without a doubt buy another Ginault. Here are a few pics from my office....


Great post and great shots.

I'm a little hesitant to wear my OR to work as well being that my watches get pretty harsh treatment there but I relented today as I just wanted to be able to enjoy it.

Luckily no scratches today at least.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

DiegoCastellanos said:


> Question for you guys regarding the bezel. I've had two ORs (one was returned and exchanged) and both have quite a bit of play in the bezel, both back and forth and up and down when pressing on it. I've read on various reveiws, and from Ginault directly, that to turn the bezel one must first press down. However, both watches I've owned have had bezels that can turn without doing this. Is that normal? I just saw a review that stated the bezel doesn't turn at all unless pressed down, and this was not the case in both that I've had.


I have the original OR and while I have up and down play as expected, I have no backwards play. In fact, I think this is what their "gunsmith machined bezel" was supposed to alleviate. It's a common problem in many of my other homage cases.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Syrjetdriver said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I recently purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover 181070GSLN and have had it for 2 weeks. I have a collection of 10 watches and must say I am very impressed with the quality of the Ginault. The fit and finish are first rate. The bezel on my watch rotates positively and smoothly with slight downward pressure on the ring and has no backlash. I recently sold a Grand Seiko Snowflake which is known to have an outstanding finish. The Ginault definitely holds its own. For 21 years I wore a Breitling Aerospace as my work watch. I am an Airline Pilot and am hard on a watch in the cockpit. I am constantly banging it on either a iPad holder, the seat frame or the pedestal. Last year I finally bought an Explorer II and that has become my everyday work watch. Even with the 904L steel in the Rolex it takes a beating. I just finished a 4-day trip and I wore the Ginault for the entire trip. The lume is outstanding in the cockpit! Since receiving the watch 2 weeks ago it is running about +2 secs a day. I tried to take a pic of it next to our GPS clock but the glare was so bad I didn't get a good shot. I was pleasantly surprised that after 4 days in the cockpit I did not scratch the watch. I recently put a 4mm scratch on the crystal of my Super Ocean moving the cockpit seat forward, have not had that watch back at work since. The glidelock on the Ginault is a welcome feature for me, I could be in the Caribbean one day and see snow the next, I love the ability to make a micro adjustment on the 'fly' So far I have been extremely happy with the Ginault, as soon as the BGW9 lume is available I will without a doubt buy another Ginault. Here are a few pics from my office....
> View attachment 12328869
> ...


Congrads on the new purchase. Glad to see even a pilot find the OR suitable for the job.

Just out of curiosity, do a lot of pilots wear diver style watches while on duty? Or it does not matter? Is it more of a style choice less of a functional thing?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Most of my watches are divers and I've never been near a scuba tank and haven't used a snorkel since I was a kid, it's all about the style for me.


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## purplehero (Feb 13, 2010)

Gorgeous watch!


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I placed my order today for the no date maxi dial white lume. 
I just could not resist. 
It seems like for now they are only doing a very limited run of these. 
John did not say they aren't making more in the future, but if like me you prefer non-fake-vintage lume, shoot him an email and secure one.


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## Dino7 (Jun 16, 2012)

Seppia said:


> I placed my order today for the no date maxi dial white lume.
> I just could not resist.
> It seems like for now they are only doing a very limited run of these.
> John did not say they aren't making more in the future, but if like me you prefer non-fake-vintage lume, shoot him an email and secure one.


Are the no date maxi white lume ones available now then as I don't see them on the website , is it just by emailing John that we can get one ?


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I did email John


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## 70monte (Feb 16, 2006)

I haven't been on this site in awhile and must have missed when this came out. It looks to be a very nice watch and one I would be interested in. I can't swing it right now but maybe one day.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

70monte said:


> I haven't been on this site in awhile and must have missed when this came out. It looks to be a very nice watch and one I would be interested in. I can't swing it right now but maybe one day.


I see you love your divers so this is one that should definitely be added to your collection.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

biscuit141 said:


> Mayonaise, My second Ginault should have shipped today (hopefully). I currently have one of the prototype gold sand lume with date models, without the maxi dial. When I originally ordered, I wanted the maxi dial with date but it wasn't available. Now it is and that's what's on the way. Just curious if you prefer the maxi dial with date over the smaller indices, since you have both. I always thought the hands and indices were a little too small for the dial. However, I do appreciate that the size is more proportional to the classic subs. I am hoping once I have them both in hand making the decision will be easy, as I can only keep one.
> 
> Here is a photo edit I did with my watch vs a sub and you can see the indices are very similar in size. But I think the maxi dial modernizes it a little bit. Just looking for opinions.
> The second pic is my watch vs a maxi with date in the same perspective.


Hi biscuit. I definitely prefer the maxi dials over the smaller ones. First, it just seems more aesthetically pleasing and balanced. Second, it hardens back to the maxi dials found on the old Rolex 5512/5513 models although the Ginault's dials are better IMO because they're applied/raised instead of painted on. I think the newer series of Rolex Subs have larger dials too. The Ginault seems to take the best features out of all the different Rolex models, blend them together, and make improvements upon them. If I had to keep only one OR, I would keep the one with the maxi dials, date, and domed crystal (no cyclops). My second favorite is the maxi dial with no date. My third favorite is the one with small indices and cyclops. The third one just doesn't have the "wow" factor for me that the first two do.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

Mayonaise said:


> Hi biscuit. I definitely prefer the maxi dials over the smaller ones. First, it just seems more aesthetically pleasing and balanced. Second, it hardens back to the maxi dials found on the old Rolex 5512/5513 models although the Ginault's dials are better IMO because they're applied/raised instead of painted on. I think the newer series of Rolex Subs have larger dials too. The Ginault seems to take the best features out of all the different Rolex models, blend them together, and make improvements upon them. If I had to keep only one OR, I would keep the one with the maxi dials, date, and domed crystal (no cyclops). My second favorite is the maxi dial with no date. My third favorite is the one with small indices and cyclops. The third one just doesn't have the "wow" factor for me that the first two do.


I meant "hearkens", not hardens. I think I misses the first "e" and got auto-corrected. Either that or it was a Freudian slip.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

andrewmack said:


> View attachment 12322618
> Happy Independence Day!


Beautiful!


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

Dunzdeck said:


> I don't have an ultrasonic but I'll try giving it a bit of the old water and soap treatment to start with. It's not even that "stuck", just a little coarser than one might expect for the name "glidelock". Thanks!


When you say "coarse", are you referring to how it feels when you slide it from left to right or how fine of an adjustment it makes when you snap it down?


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> I have the original OR and while I have up and down play as expected, I have no backwards play. In fact, I think this is what their "gunsmith machined bezel" was supposed to alleviate. It's a common problem in many of my other homage cases.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Same here. I have no backward/forward or CW/CCW PLAY. But there is up and down play with a clicky / springy feel when if I press down on the edge of the bezel. I kind of like that feel. And it's kind of comforting to know there's a bit of shock absorbency built in.


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## Mayonaise (Jun 19, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Congrads on the new purchase. Glad to see even a pilot find the OR suitable for the job.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, do a lot of pilots wear diver style watches while on duty? Or it does not matter? Is it more of a style choice less of a functional thing?


One of the most famous pilots in history wore a Rolex Submwhen he flew. Chuck Yeager.


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## 70monte (Feb 16, 2006)

59er said:


> I see you love your divers so this is one that should definitely be added to your collection.


Diver's are about the only type of watch I do like and I will have to add this one at some point. Hopefully before they sell out.


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

I paid 210usd for custom tax for this beauty, no regrets at all..









Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Syrjetdriver (Mar 20, 2014)

mf1tym,

I see a lot of guys with GMT watches flying but also see a lot of dive watches. The Breitling Aerospace was a very popular watch worn in the cockpit for many years, still see quite a few of them being worn as well. I personally like the Explorer II, I don't change time zones with it, I just set the 24 hr hand to GMT time and leave it. The Explorer II is my primary work watch now a days.....

Matt


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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

Mayonaise said:


> When you say "coarse", are you referring to how it feels when you slide it from left to right or how fine of an adjustment it makes when you snap it down?


Left to right. Couldn't come up with the right term... the opposite of 'smooth'. It takes a bit of force to get moving, then it's fine.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

marcell said:


> I paid 210usd for custom tax for this beauty, no regrets at all..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Surely it's a beauty, but I think 210 dollars for taxes is too much. You already paid your incomes tax right? It's like you are billed twice.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

lvt said:


> Surely it's a beauty, but I think 210 dollars for taxes is too much. You already paid your incomes tax right? It's like you are billed twice.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


Total product + shipping is 700usd and the total tax is around 27.5% in Indonesia for watches. I agree thats a lot of tax but i dont have a choices. I envy all of you who lives in low import tax countries.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

marcell said:


> Total product + shipping is 700usd and the total tax is around 27.5% in Indonesia for watches. I agree thats a lot of tax but i dont have a choices. I envy all of you who lives in low import tax countries.
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Where can you buy it ay 700usd?

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

rogt said:


> Where can you buy it ay 700usd?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


You can email Ginault and ask them for a discount code. I did it the other day and they sent me a one-time use discount of 50% off. The code was good for a limited time. I ordered the blue bezel model (Ginault stock pic).









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## ninjack (Apr 15, 2015)

bolts40 said:


> You can email Ginault and ask them for a discount code. I did it the other day and they sent me a one-time use discount of 50% off. The code was good for a limited time. I ordered the blue bezel model (Ginault stock pic).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh! Now I want one! It's a beautiful watch. Wear it in good health.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

ninjack said:


> Ahh! Now I want one! It's a beautiful watch. Wear it in good health.


That's just a pic off the website. Mine hasn't shipped yet. But I'll be sure to post some pics when it arrives!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> You can email Ginault and ask them for a discount code. I did it the other day and they sent me a one-time use discount of 50% off. The code was good for a limited time. I ordered the blue bezel model (Ginault stock pic).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I just want to also put out there that Ginault gave me the discount code and asked for nothing in return. They did not ask for any review to be done.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

With the movment being what it is, assuming it will be difficult getting it serviced locally?

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Nope... Not really. It is a mod ETA. Any competent watchmaker should be able to service/fix it. 


rogt said:


> With the movment being what it is, assuming it will be difficult getting it serviced locally?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

So what material is the bezel insert?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Just ordered mine. Now the wait begins. I know others have posted, but I wonder how this will stack up against my previously owned Rolex sub. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

petersenjp said:


> So what material is the bezel insert?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aluminum as per Early Rolie.



petersenjp said:


> Just ordered mine. Now the wait begins. I know others have posted, but I wonder how this will stack up against my previously owned Rolex sub.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it was a 5 digit Sub then I think you'll be pleasantly surprised as the OR is similar in most ways including weight, If you had a 6 digit Sub then the OR will feel light.


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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

Picked up an F serial Sub today and damn my Ginault is one HELL of a close competitor:


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Today I pulled the trigger on an Ocean Rover. Before I made the decision, I read ever page of this thread, from the seeming hyperbole of Ginault's "trying too hard" attempt of marketing and all of the rampant skepticism that that introduction spawned. But once the first few watches were on some wrists, boy did the attitude toward the brand make a complete 180°. Every review I have seen since has stated that the Ginault far exceeded expectations and *gasp*, is actually a damn good timepiece. Thank you thread participants. You really helped me learn enough about the Ocean Rover to influence my decision. Now if we could only encourage time to pass more quickly so I can receive the watch before my wife returns from a week out of town. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

Smoothtoquer said:


> Today I pulled the trigger on an Ocean Rover. Before I made the decision, I read ever page of this thread, from the seeming hyperbole of Ginault's "trying to hard" attempt of marketing and all of the rampant skepticism that that introduction spawned. But once the first few watches were on some wrists, boy did the attitude toward the brand make a complete 180°. Every review I have seen since has stated that the Ginault far exceeded expectations and *gasp*, is actually a damn good timepiece. Thank you thread participants. You really helped me learn enough about the Ocean Rover to influence my decision. Now if we could only encourage time to pass more quickly so I can receive the watch before my wife returns from a week out of town.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Good choice. You will not regret this! The only step above the watch IMO is an actual Submariner!


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## Cali kid (Feb 7, 2009)

simply an amazing watch, 8 days and its running +1 second, not a day for all 8 days its a second fast. Dial is stunning, great bracelet and clasp, gold sand lume, great box sapphire crystal, even the crown is done so well and I could go on and on. BTW I own a 1995 W serial Submariner date and a 1998 U serial 16613 TT blue dial Sub and this watch has a better bracelet and clasp than these mid to late 90's Rolex subs and it's as close as you're going to get to a Rolex. Plus I cant afford 100,000.00 /150,000.00 bones for a beat up MilSub so I've got no shame in wearing this fine timepiece..


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Cali kid said:


> simply an amazing watch, 8 days and its running +1 second, not a day for all 8 days its a second fast. Dial is stunning, great bracelet and clasp, gold sand lume, great box sapphire crystal, even the crown is done so well and I could go on and on. BTW I own a 1995 W serial Submariner date and a 1998 U serial 16613 TT blue dial Sub and this watch has a better bracelet and clasp than these mid to late 90's Rolex subs and it's as close as you're going to get to a Rolex. Plus I cant afford 100,000.00 /150,000.00 bones for a beat up MilSub so I've got no shame in wearing this fine timepiece..


After multiple emails and ridiculously prompt responses, I have to say that if Ginault's customer service is as good after purchase as it has been so far, I anticipate big things from this little watch company.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Cali kid said:


> simply an amazing watch, 8 days and its running +1 second, not a day for all 8 days its a second fast. Dial is stunning, great bracelet and clasp, gold sand lume, great box sapphire crystal, even the crown is done so well and I could go on and on. BTW I own a 1995 W serial Submariner date and a 1998 U serial 16613 TT blue dial Sub and this watch has a better bracelet and clasp than these mid to late 90's Rolex subs and it's as close as you're going to get to a Rolex. Plus I cant afford 100,000.00 /150,000.00 bones for a beat up MilSub so I've got no shame in wearing this fine timepiece..


Yep I think that many are enjoying the Milsub similarities without the second mortgage values of the originals as well as the more modern bracelets and sapphire crystals that make these OR's such a usable option.


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Mines shipping right now. Very very excited 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Targaryen (Sep 28, 2015)

Bookmarking this for future reference. Very interested in this


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## GreatLakesWatch (Aug 12, 2016)

goyoneuff said:


> Nope... Not really. It is a mod ETA. Any competent watchmaker should be able to service/fix it.


Keep in mind, Ginault does not use ETA movements, they use ETA replicas, completely made by them in the US. As such, I also have reservations about how this movement will get serviced if something happens.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

eric.mcghee said:


> Keep in mind, Ginault does not use ETA movements, they use ETA replicas, completely made by them in the US. As such, I also have reservations about how this movement will get serviced if something happens.


It's interesting.

So it's neither Swiss nor Chinese origin, I wonder how the movements have been born there.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## Tremec (Jul 11, 2008)

eric.mcghee said:


> Keep in mind, Ginault does not use ETA movements, they use ETA replicas, completely made by them in the US. As such, I also have reservations about how this movement will get serviced if something happens.





lvt said:


> It's interesting.
> 
> So it's neither Swiss nor Chinese origin, I wonder how the movements have been born there.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


I was under the impression the shock protection was of Chinese origin and jewels where sourced out of the country but the plates where machined, and the movement was assembled in the US


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

eric.mcghee said:


> Keep in mind, Ginault does not use ETA movements, they use ETA replicas, completely made by them in the US. As such, I also have reservations about how this movement will get serviced if something happens.


These are a high quality clone of the ETA2824 which is probably the most used Swiss movement in the world so even if an ETA part doesn't fit an entire movement can be bought for under $200 but my bet is you will never likely need anything more than a service which for most of the time needs nothing more than a clean, lube and regulation.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

I don't know about the US's regulations but I think even if they import Swiss made ETA movements, given the MSRP, the watches can still be considered made in USA, right?

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

lvt said:


> I don't know about the US's regulations but I think even if they import Swiss made ETA movements, given the MSRP, the watches can still be considered made in USA, right?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


No. Previous threads have beat this topic pretty well to death, but US regulations around the "Made in the USA" claim are clear. The US standard requires the vast majority of the components of the assembly to be made in the United States. This became a major point of contention that Ginault's use of imported jewels and springs made their "Made in the USA" claim to be false as it didn't meet the legal standard as set by the FTC.

Ginault has since changed their case back to say "Assembled in the USA" and offered replacements at no cost to owners with the older case backs if you wished.

My personal opinion is this was an understandable overstatement by Ginault, especially if you believe they manufactured the movement plates, bridges, and gears locally. I'd probably be proud enough of that accomplishment to say "Made in the USA" too if it were me, but from a legal perspective it simply isn't accurate.

Ironically, if Ginault had used an ETA 2824-2 and sent their US-manufactured components (case, etc.) to Switzerland for final assembly, they could legally use the "Swiss Made" term. Just a difference in each country's legal standard for use of the term. Another example is a Seiko made in Thailand can be labeled "Made in Japan" if it was made using Japanese equipment with Japanese personnel overseeing the manufacturing (per my understanding).

Personally, I'm kind of over the "Made in" claims of nearly every manufacturer. The term is too easily manipulated.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Has anybody been able to get hold of the BGW9 lume version? With 'discount' ?

I've sent an email but not had a reply yet.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Has anyone had any issues with getting email responses from Ginault? I had several back and forths with Mr. McMurtry over the last couple of weeks with only prompt replies. I placed an order on Thursday the 13th and then had a question, but never got a response. I sent a couple more emails and as of today, I still haven't heard back. 

Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

It's a small operation, be patient. 
He normally responds within hours, but at times it took him two or three days.


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Seppia said:


> It's a small operation, be patient.
> He normally responds within hours, but at times it took him two or three days.


Ya. I have noticed the past couple days there has been no responses. I got a shipping notice saying preship last week but still hasn't shipped.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

I received an email from Ginault and was told that they had a major server crash. They lost my order info, but were able to confirm my payment through PayPal. Mr. McMurtry refunded my money to PayPal and asked me to reorder, which I of course did. Everything was kosher. I guess I'm spoiled by modern technology and could work on my patience, LOL. 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

I made order and payment on July 16 and immediately received an automated order receipt email. Now, after 3 days (July 19) and 2 follow up emails, I haven't heard a peep from [email protected] Ordered a no date, sand lume and hoping to get it by July 26 before I go on vacation.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

I received a response from Ginault a few minutes ago. Great service.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> I made order and payment on July 16 and immediately received an automated order receipt email. Now, after 3 days (July 19) and 2 follow up emails, I haven't heard a peep from [email protected] Ordered a no date, sand lume and hoping to get it by July 26 before I go on vacation.


It looks like we were both victims of the server crash. Mr. McMurtry told me that the assembly of the no date, sand lume watches would be completed by the end of the week and should ship early next week.

Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Smoothtoquer said:


> It looks like we were both victims of the server crash. Mr. McMurtry told me that the assembly of the no date, sand lume watches would be completed by the end of the week and should ship early next week.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


Yup. Same response I got at the crack of dawn this morning. Sounds like we will all be eagerly waiting for shipments next week. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Do the Ginault's have any AR coating on the crystal? And does anyone have any comparison shots next to a Black Bay heritage?


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## Vlance (Apr 12, 2014)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Do the Ginault's have any AR coating on the crystal? And does anyone have any comparison shots next to a Black Bay heritage?


No AR coating on the crystal.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Do the Ginault's have any AR coating on the crystal? And does anyone have any comparison shots next to a Black Bay heritage?


No inner or outer AR coatings on crystal.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Do the Ginault's have any AR coating on the crystal? And does anyone have any comparison shots next to a Black Bay heritage?


Compared this with a buddies BB awhile back and the OR wears and feels smaller than the BB. OR = 40mm BB = 42mm. The BB is thicker as well as bigger diam.

As usual the difference is only obvious when changing from one to the other.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

I just pulled the trigger on a GSLID. Hoping for the best. I found the combination of the sand colored lume with the gold accents in the blue bezel quite nice and just enough different that it doesn't look like just another Sub homage. I have a Rolex DSSD Deep Blue, so the Ginault has some serious competition. 😉
In all fairnes,I don't wear my Rolex everyday and this will probably become my daily wearer for the office.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)




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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Nice! They don't have stock right now, so it's going to be the middle part of August before mines arrives.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

You will love it! Great watch


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Since it's going to be a while for the watch to ship, they're going to add a cyclops for the date window. My eyes need it.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> No inner or outer AR coatings on crystal.


Thanks both! Not so sure about pulling the trigger now, without any AR at all :-(


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

59er said:


> Compared this with a buddies BB awhile back and the OR wears and feels smaller than the BB. OR = 40mm BB = 42mm. The BB is thicker as well as bigger diam.
> 
> As usual the difference is only obvious when changing from one to the other.


Any pictures friend? Also want to see how it compares re lack of AR.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Not so sure about pulling the trigger now, without any AR at all :-(


I don't notice the lack of AR on mine. The underside of the crystal (where the AR would usually be) is shaped in such a way as to diffuse reflections from it. On their web site, Ginault says "we specifically designed Ginault 30.4 Dome with almost no direct light reflection point." For me it works.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Avo said:


> I don't notice the lack of AR on mine. The underside of the crystal (where the AR would usually be) is shaped in such a way as to diffuse reflections from it. On their web site, Ginault says "we specifically designed Ginault 30.4 Dome with almost no direct light reflection point." For me it works.


It absolutely does. 
I'll take mine diving next month, I suspect the dome will make it a fairly non reflective watch underwater. 
Will see if I manage to post some pictures.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Any pictures friend? Also want to see how it compares re lack of AR.


No shots at the moment. I'll ask him to bring it when I see him next.

I do find it hard to get good shots of the OR sometimes due to the domed crystal as unlike a flat crystal it's hard to eliminate reflection just by tilting it.

Can't say that it affects my love of the OR though.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Seppia said:


> It absolutely does.
> I'll take mine diving next month, I suspect the dome will make it a fairly non reflective watch underwater.
> Will see if I manage to post some pictures.


I'd love to see some underwater shots of the OR, that's something we haven't seen in this thread yet.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

59er said:


> I'd love to see some underwater shots of the OR, that's something we haven't seen in this thread yet.


Here are a few from snorkeling and diving on the barrier reef earlier this month.


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## Blurter (Oct 2, 2011)

My Ocean Rover GSLID arrived this afternoon. Absolutely beautiful. The smoothest sweeping second hand I've yet seen. Initial impressions are very good.








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Any pictures friend? Also want to see how it compares re lack of AR.


I'll try to take some pics tonight.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> I'll try to take some pics tonight.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


You're a star! Thanks buddy!


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Anyone got word when this next batch is shipping out? I heard they were to be done last week and go out early this week. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

petersenjp said:


> Anyone got word when this next batch is shipping out? I heard they were to be done last week and go out early this week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm almost pacing the floors in anticipation. I sure hope to get a shipping notification soon.

Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Gfxdaddy said:


> You're a star! Thanks buddy!


Pics are with my iPhone, the best I have right now. Took them under fairly bright inside light.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

petersenjp said:


> Anyone got word when this next batch is shipping out? I heard they were to be done last week and go out early this week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Smoothtoquer said:


> I'm almost pacing the floors in anticipation. I sure hope to get a shipping notification soon.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


In the same boat as you guys. Was hoping to get it by Thursday since then I'm out of town for weeks. Not looking promising...


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> Pics are with my iPhone, the best I have right now. Took them under fairly bright inside light.


Such a star. Thanks a million - is not too dissimilar to the Tudor, I'll pull the trigger!


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

I heard someone say that standard Rolex bezel inserts are compatible with this…did anyone have any experience with this? Considering modding mine with a matte ceramic bezel when it arrives.


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

And it's on the move. Expected Thursday. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

petersenjp said:


> And it's on the move. Expected Thursday.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dang, I still haven't received my notification.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Smoothtoquer said:


> Dang, I still haven't received my notification.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


I didn't receive anything. I took the tracking from preship and checked this morning.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

petersenjp said:


> I didn't receive anything. I took the tracking from preship and checked this morning.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't received pre-shipment yet, only the PayPal receipt.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Galaga (Jun 22, 2017)

That blue and gold bezel on the Ginault looks amazing.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Such a star. Thanks a million - is not too dissimilar to the Tudor, I'll pull the trigger!


You wont be disappointed.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Gfxdaddy said:


> I heard someone say that standard Rolex bezel inserts are compatible with this&#8230;did anyone have any experience with this? Considering modding mine with a matte ceramic bezel when it arrives.


Not certain ceramic inserts will fit due to thickness. Replacement inserts for 5 digit subs (aluminum) seem to fit.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> I heard someone say that standard Rolex bezel inserts are compatible with this&#8230;did anyone have any experience with this? Considering modding mine with a matte ceramic bezel when it arrives.


No, as Ryeguy noted it's only the aluminum inserts that will fit, same as Rollie 6 digit inserts won't fit 5 digit bezels.

The standard inserts are very nice and are a semi-gloss finish.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

I just received my Ocean Rover. I'm at work, so no pics yet. I will say that none of the pictures I've seen so far really do the watch justice. 

Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Smoothtoquer said:


> I just received my Ocean Rover. I'm at work, so no pics yet. I will say that none of the pictures I've seen so far really do the watch justice.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


Look at bruce william's review in youtube, absolutely beautiful video and picture. Made me pull the trigger.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Smoothtoquer said:


> I just received my Ocean Rover. I'm at work, so no pics yet. I will say that none of the pictures I've seen so far really do the watch justice.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


I just got mine as well. Been under the weather at home so got to size it already. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

And here we go.....I just received my ocean over and overall impressions are... wow. The watch comes in a very nicely presented box with sizing tool, rag, warranty card and your watches timing specs. That in itself is darn impressive.

Removing the watch, it's covered in plastic much like all high end luxury watches. Every inch is covered to protect the watch from damage. Once removing the plastic, on to sizing. Super easy with the screw pins.

The watch fit and finish is incredible. I personally love the glide lock clasp, especially down here in Florida where my wrist changes sizes by the hour.

The dial even though pretty busy with wording is very readable. The hands and markers are beautiful. I love the sand color. I actually was pretty nervous about the color. I hate "fake vintage" colors but this doesn't look like they tried to fake the color. It's truly it's own sand color. Perfect.

The bezel is great. Push down slightly to move so it doesn't slide out of place by accident. The aluminum bezel is ok. Wish they would have went ceramic but the upside is you can replace this bezel very easily.

The second hand glides with ease. I know everyone has been talking about the movement, and honestly I was curious too. But seeing how smoothly the hand glides over the dial... it's stunning.

The crown is a little "stiff" to open but I would much rather have that then too loose and never able to lock.

Overall, amazing piece. Truly beautiful. It has the Rolex feel and finish, but has its own style as well. I would highly highly recommend this watch to anyone looking at a sub styled watch or anyone looking for a high quality micro piece.

Note: I did notice on the case back a number xxx/200. Are these a limited release of only 200??


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

marcell said:


> Look at bruce william's review in youtube, absolutely beautiful video and picture. Made me pull the trigger.
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Actually, his video helped me with my decision as well. His pictures and editing are exceptional.

Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

petersenjp said:


> And here we go.....I just received my ocean over and overall impressions are... wow. The watch comes in a very nicely presented box with sizing tool, rag, warranty card and your watches timing specs. That in itself is darn impressive.
> 
> Removing the watch, it's covered in plastic much like all high end luxury watches. Every inch is covered to protect the watch from damage. Once removing the plastic, on to sizing. Super easy with the screw pins.
> 
> ...


I second everything you said in your first impressions. The only thing I was suprised about regarding the Ocean Rover "kit" is the included 2 piece zulu. I was expecting a tan color, but received an army green strap(which I actually prefer). Did you receive the same? I was also concerned that the lume would have that "faked vintage" look, but I agree with you that it doesn't come across that way at all.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Smoothtoquer said:


> I second everything you said in your first impressions. The only thing I was suprised about regarding the Ocean Rover "kit" is the included 2 piece zulu. I was expecting a tan color, but received an army green strap(which I actually prefer). Did you receive the same? I was also concerned that the lume would have that "faked vintage" look, but I agree with you that it doesn't come across that way at all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


Hahaha. I didn't even notice the Zulu. Yup. Green here as well!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Awesome to read that you guys received your watches today! Congrats and thanks for sharing your reviews. 

John told me mine would ship on Thursday or Friday. I too am not sure if I'll love the sand lume so I actually also ordered the new no-date model with BGW9 lume. Hope to receive both early next week and share with you all my thoughts and pictures.


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Green Zulu came with my Ocean rover as well. Today was the only day I didn't check the tracking to see if it updated and when I got home it was sitting on my doorstep. It went from showing no status to delivered. A pleasant surprise because I wasn't expecting it until next week!


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

cwfmon said:


> Awesome to read that you guys received your watches today! Congrats and thanks for sharing your reviews.
> 
> John told me mine would ship on Thursday or Friday. I too am not sure if I'll love the sand lume so I actually also ordered the new no-date model with BGW9 lume. Hope to receive both early next week and share with you all my thoughts and pictures.


I honestly was very very hesitant on the sand lume. I thought ...oh, fake vintage...but some how it's just a unique color. Not fake.

Looking forward to see the BGW9 model!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

trf2271 said:


> Green Zulu came with my Ocean rover as well. Today was the only day I didn't check the tracking to see if it updated and when I got home it was sitting on my doorstep. It went from showing no status to delivered. A pleasant surprise because I wasn't expecting it until next week!


Just a beauty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> Awesome to read that you guys received your watches today! Congrats and thanks for sharing your reviews.
> 
> John told me mine would ship on Thursday or Friday. I too am not sure if I'll love the sand lume so I actually also ordered the new no-date model with BGW9 lume. Hope to receive both early next week and share with you all my thoughts and pictures.


I think you'll be pleasantly suprised with the sand lume. Compared to say, Steinhart Ocean Vintage Military lume, which looks fakey(?), the gold sand lume on the Ginault looks like it belongs on a modern watch. It's just not white. I hope that makes sense.

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

petersenjp said:


> Anyone got word when this next batch is shipping out? I heard they were to be done last week and go out early this week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Smoothtoquer said:


> I'm almost pacing the floors in anticipation. I sure hope to get a shipping notification soon.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk





Smoothtoquer said:


> I think you'll be pleasantly suprised with the sand lume. Compared to say, Steinhart Ocean Vintage Military lume, which looks fakey(?), the gold sand lume on the Ginault looks like it belongs on a modern watch. It's just not white. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


Fair enough. But I really loved the look of the white lume one Armand The Watch Guy showed here:






Oh well...I might have to keep both!


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Has anyone changed the bezel insert on their Ocean Rover? 

I've a ceramic insert on the way from China that seems to match the measurements of the stock insert. 

Having said that there's a good chance it won't fit! Time will tell.


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

andyk8 said:


> Has anyone changed the bezel insert on their Ocean Rover?
> 
> I've a ceramic insert on the way from China that seems to match the measurements of the stock insert.
> 
> Having said that there's a good chance it won't fit! Time will tell.


Any link to the source? Please update later with your finding.. Thank you

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

andyk8 said:


> Has anyone changed the bezel insert on their Ocean Rover?
> 
> I've a ceramic insert on the way from China that seems to match the measurements of the stock insert.
> 
> Having said that there's a good chance it won't fit! Time will tell.


I'd be interested to see how this fits as well.


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## Juanriv (Mar 6, 2015)

trf2271 said:


> Green Zulu came with my Ocean rover as well. Today was the only day I didn't check the tracking to see if it updated and when I got home it was sitting on my doorstep. It went from showing no status to delivered. A pleasant surprise because I wasn't expecting it until next week!


Congrats!!


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

First day on the wrist. Love it.









Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

Just a pic. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

andyk8 said:


> Has anyone changed the bezel insert on their Ocean Rover?
> 
> I've a ceramic insert on the way from China that seems to match the measurements of the stock insert.
> 
> Having said that there's a good chance it won't fit! Time will tell.


If it's the same internal dimensions and just smaller external dimensions it may still fit as the ceramic inserts are a glue in fit where as the aluminum inserts are a friction fit.

without it in front of me and just by imagining it, I would say the the external dimension would need to be very slightly smaller in order the fit within the bezel outer "lip".

The other thing is that the ceramic inserts are thicker than the aluminum ones so the outer edge of the ceramic insert may be visible due to the higher profile.

I'll be interested to see how you go.

Good luck.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

petersenjp said:


> Just a pic.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah....that is such an magical angle. When I desk dive and see the watch dial from that 45 degree side view I really appreciate the fine workmanship that goes into the this piece.


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## Blurter (Oct 2, 2011)

Boo! 








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

For those asking about the case back, I have one from the first batch and it's numbered 85/93
So I do t think these are LE at all.

Here on Terry's (toxicnatos) awesome ISO style rubber:


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Blurter said:


> Boo!
> View attachment 12383269
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Blue Hue.... :-d


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

My OR Sun bathing.










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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

And after a quick bath in the sun










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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Here is my magic angle. Look at the refinedness of the indices, the way the edge is finised. If you are an applied indices type of guy like me, really cannot think of many other better workmanship at this price point. Somthing about the indices an hands that really makes the whole thing complete.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Seppia said:


> For those asking about the case back, I have one from the first batch and it's numbered 85/93
> So I do t think these are LE at all.
> 
> Here on Terry's (toxicnatos) awesome ISO style rubber:


Which color do you like more? Orange or black?


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## petersenjp (Jan 4, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> Here is my magic angle. Look at the refinedness of the indices, the way the edge is finised. If you are an applied indices type of guy like me, really cannot think of many other better workmanship at this price point. Somthing about the indices an hands that really makes the whole thing complete.


I would def say the finishes are up in a high end / luxury watch. And the movement. Wow

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

marcell said:


> Any link to the source? Please update later with your finding.. Thank you
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


This is the one I ordered, Carving 38mm Black Ceramic Bezel Insert Ring For 40mm Parnis Submariner Watch as I say, not sure it'll fit till I get it and see. I'll post an update


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

andyk8 said:


> This is the one I ordered, Carving 38mm Black Ceramic Bezel Insert Ring For 40mm Parnis Submariner Watch as I say, not sure it'll fit till I get it and see. I'll post an update


Well I believe that the aluminium insert is around 37.6 mm OD so I suspect that it won't be an easy fit and I'm not sure how you could "shave" the edge from a ceramic insert but the seller notes that if it doesn't fit or you don't like it they will refund on return so you have nothing to lose giving it a go.

Looking forward to seeing how you go with it.

Please keep us informed.


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## morrijef (Apr 24, 2017)

Just got mine









Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Seppia said:


> For those asking about the case back, I have one from the first batch and it's numbered 85/93
> So I do t think these are LE at all.
> 
> Here on Terry's (toxicnatos) awesome ISO style rubber:


I asked Mr. McMurtry about the numbers on the case back and he told me that "The serial number on the caseback means you received the x build out of y units from this batch of Ocean Rover."

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Blurter (Oct 2, 2011)

Riddim Driven said:


> Blue Hue....  :-d


Me too!








Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Which color do you like more? Orange or black?


I think it's a great ISO watch. I would guess it would work ok on blue as well.

Orange is very cool, it speaks of summer, but I got tired after a couple weeks. I guess gun to the head I would pick black because it's more versatile.

I think I'll end up alternating a lot of straps, including this one and a Green Heuerville:









I'm personally not a huge fan of the clasp, I think it's too long and bulky, so I don't keep it on bracelet too much


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Here are some early readings of my Ocean Rover's accuracy. Ginault's testing showed +.8 sec. So far the watch is outperforming that. Impressive.









Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Ocean Rover 181070LSILN BGW9
​


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Riddim Driven said:


> Ocean Rover 181070LSILN BGW9
> ​


WOW the LSILN is looking very very very nice. More ofa modern touch to it.

Can we have some lume shots of the LSILN?


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Just some random pic









Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Thus honeymoon might last a while.









Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Can confirm that the bezel insert is interchangeable with 16610 inserts :-! They snap in, no adhesive.









The OEM insert has an OD of 37.6mm. I don't think the Parnis ceramic inserts will fit. There are some 16610 ceramic inserts on Ebay that might work :think:

(look for item 162223150188 "CERAMIC BEZEL INSERT FOR ROLEX SUBMARINER ENGRAVED NUMBER 16800,16808,16610 BLAC"; 
I got one of these ^ for another application and the quality was OK, not great. I haven't tried one on the Ginault. Ceramic inserts will need adhesive) :think:

This one's on a $39 DeepSea style clasp. It mates perfectly with the Ginault bracelet links and allows adjustment on the wrist (and a dive extension) |>


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Really enjoying this watch!


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Riddim Driven said:


> Ocean Rover 181070LSILN BGW9
> ​


Is this the white lume?
Can we have more pics, please?
Mine has been delivered but I'll be able to retrieve it only in October


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Seppia said:


> Riddim Driven said:
> 
> 
> > Ocean Rover 181070LSILN BGW9
> ...


Yeh -- Thanks for the heads up on this one ;-) - I put a lume shot up on a previous page. I'll get some more pics up & commentary over the next few days. The only difference is the BGW9 vs Sand.


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> Can confirm that the bezel insert is interchangeable with 16610 inserts :-! They snap in, no adhesive.
> 
> View attachment 12389109
> 
> ...


Cheers for the info.

Where did you get the clasp? Have you got a link where to buy?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Riddim Driven said:


> Yeh -- Thanks for the heads up on this one ;-) - I put a lume shot up on a previous page. I'll get some more pics up & commentary over the next few days. The only difference is the BGW9 vs Sand.


My BGW9 is in customs here in the U.K!

I wonder how long and how much? . . .


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Just received and Simply incredible! 

BGW9 no date model. More pics to come.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

The 181070LSILN Ocean Rover with BGW9 is a beaut! Thank you Ginault!

RD


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Riddim Driven said:


> The 181070LSILN Ocean Rover with BGW9 is a beaut! Thank you Ginault!
> 
> RD


So jealous, congrats!


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

trf2271 said:


> So jealous, congrats!


Thanks -- Don't be jealous --


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

^^^ Wow those BGW9 versions look amazing! b-)  So clean!! :-!



andyk8 said:


> Cheers for the info.
> 
> Where did you get the clasp? Have you got a link where to buy?


Search ebay for item 322517190397 "20 21mm Silver Watch Band Strap Solid Curve End Oyster Bracelet Flip Lock Clasp" 

Comes on a bracelet with very thick end links but worth it IMO. I have 2 now. Seller has 15% off pretty frequently.

It will take the Ginault half-link (i think the G clasp requires this to mate with the bracelet), or not. Between that and the clasp it's a lot of adjustability! :-!


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

NeedAG said:


> ^^^ Wow those BGW9 versions look amazing! b-)  So clean!! :-!
> 
> Search ebay for item 322517190397 "20 21mm Silver Watch Band Strap Solid Curve End Oyster Bracelet Flip Lock Clasp"
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I just bought the last one!


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

andyk8 said:


> Thanks for that. I just bought the last one!


Cheers! They pop in and out, looks like a couple more are available already. Great for the $ and arrive quickly. |>

These are such great watches :-!


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Ginault 181070LSILN Ocean Rover BGW9 ​


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Lume shot.









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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> Search ebay for item 322517190397 "20 21mm Silver Watch Band Strap Solid Curve End Oyster Bracelet Flip Lock Clasp"


So what is the advantage of this clasp over the stock one on the Ginault? The diver extension?


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

You can microadjust with the watch on, very handy in summer.

The flip side of the coin, it's a longer clasp from end-to-end, very well finished but not quite as nicely executed as the G clasp. Check out some reviews of the SDDS clasp for pros and cons of the design style.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

The BGW9 no date looks perfect, I can't wait to get mine 
it's in the USA at a friends of mine, so I dodge the european duties (22% in my home country), the flip side is I'll only get it in October 
I'll enjoy the first no date in the meanwhile (old pic)


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

I think Ginault should consider having a distributor in the EU. The additional VAT ranges from 19 - 27% depending on which country you're in which adds a considerable chunk to the MRSP.

For example, if you lived in Hungary and you wanted a 181070GSLN it would end up costing you $1,650 in total after import duty. 

I think this would turn a lot of Europeans off buying the watch.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

?
Setting up a distributor in Europe would not change anything, vat would still be there.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Just playing with the camera. Nice reflection of the second hand off the enamel.









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## RTea (Jun 3, 2010)

Loving the new maxi dial/hands and blue/gold bezel version. Any coupon codes available like they used to have for video/written reviews?

I agree about what most post about the quality. After handling a lot of watches in the $500-$1,000 range, the fit and finishing on this one is near or alone at the top. At its retail price though, it's a bit harder to justify but still a beaut.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

For those who ordered, how long did it take for your watch to ship?


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

RTea said:


> Loving the new maxi dial/hands and blue/gold bezel version. Any coupon codes available like they used to have for video/written reviews?
> 
> I agree about what most post about the quality. After handling a lot of watches in the $500-$1,000 range, the fit and finishing on this one is near or alone at the top. At its retail price though, it's a bit harder to justify but still a beaut.


I think they're still a bargain at retail price, but you can try email them for a discount.



GermanyMatt said:


> For those who ordered, how long did it take for your watch to ship?


The first one was out in a couple days. 
The second one took approximately three weeks but it hadn't yet been built when I ordered it


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Seppia said:


> ?
> Setting up a distributor in Europe would not change anything, vat would still be there.


Of course the VAT would still be there but Ginault could offer the the watches at a better price.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I don't see the logic. 
Aside from saving a few bucks on shipping because of bulk (minimal savings though), they would only have additional costs (the distributor doesn't work for glory, they want a cut). 

You are receiving the watch directly from the brand, it can't get any better than that (unless you have a friend in the USA and manage to "smuggle" it back to Europe avoiding vat)


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

G4_Chrono said:


> My BGW9 is in customs here in the U.K! I wonder how long and how much? . . .


Still waiting for mine to ship. Did you pick yours up yet? And if so, how much more £££ @ customs?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Still waiting for mine to ship. Did you pick yours up yet? And if so, how much more £££ @ customs?


Hi.
im still waiting. By the time I got the dispatch email from Ginault it was already in the UK! The tracking is good though:

Customs have taken all week to calculate customs charges twice (?!!?) and to get it to my local parcel force depot. Now they are sending a letter with the charges! Once paid they will deliver 'next day'.

It's not easy to work out the customs charges from the info on the web . . . I expect 20% VAT on the total invoice amount including shipping + duty @2.5% (maybe?) on value without shipping + handling charge between £8 - £25.

:gulp:

But what can you do? . .


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Seppia said:


> I don't see the logic.
> Aside from saving a few bucks on shipping because of bulk (minimal savings though), they would only have additional costs (the distributor doesn't work for glory, they want a cut).
> 
> You are receiving the watch directly from the brand, it can't get any better than that (unless you have a friend in the USA and manage to "smuggle" it back to Europe avoiding vat)


The logic is that you wouldn't be paying VAT twice, once to the yanks and once locally, therefore making the watch cheaper for a European buyer.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Here's a few shots on the strap.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

I hope Ginault do BGW9 lume version with a dull blue bezel - their version of a Tudor Black Bay Blue!


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

8 days of accuracy for the Ginault. Averaging 0.0 sec/day.









Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

andyk8 said:


> The logic is that you wouldn't be paying VAT twice, once to the yanks and once locally, therefore making the watch cheaper for a European buyer.


I dont believe you pay any US taxes on the shipment regardless of whether it's shipped from the states or Europe.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Smoothtoquer said:


> 8 days of accuracy for the Ginault. Averaging 0.0 sec/day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure it's not a quartz?

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> I dont believe you pay any US taxes on the shipment regardless of whether it's shipped from the states or Europe.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


You don't 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

lvt said:


> Are you sure it's not a quartz?
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


It's sure keeping time like one. I can't imagine that this level of performance will be sustained, but it certainly indicates that Ginault put some effort into regulating its movements.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)




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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

One of the original 35 samples made. I've had this for about 4 or 5 months. I check the time against my cell phone about once a week and have to adjust it by 1-3 minutes. Great watch. At the discounted price this is a steal! At full price, if anyone has paid full price, I'd still say it is a very good deal.









Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Jtragic said:


> I dont believe you pay any US taxes on the shipment regardless of whether it's shipped from the states or Europe.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


So there's no tax on any goods in the US? I find that bizarre!


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

andyk8 said:


> So there's no tax on any goods in the US? I find that bizarre!


Generally speaking, if the company you are buying from is located in, or has some type of presence in the state you are shipping to you pay tax. Otherwise no. Even then, the highest sales tax in the US is probably about 8 or so percent.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

More of the BGW9 no date 181070SILN


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## andyk8 (Jan 6, 2016)

Jtragic said:


> Generally speaking, if the company you are buying from is located in, or has some type of presence in the state you are shipping to you pay tax. Otherwise no. Even then, the highest sales tax in the US is probably about 8 or so percent.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


You lucky f**kers!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I've been wearing my BGW9 maxi dial for the past 10 days. Looks and wears great on a padded leather strap.


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## shungai (Aug 6, 2017)

Just ordered a blue bezel no date version (181070GSLID). Can't wait to get it


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Nice! I like how Ginault is making permutations of their models to satisfy their customers' tastes.



petersenjp said:


> Anyone got word when this next batch is shipping out? I heard they were to be done last week and go out early this week.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Smoothtoquer said:


> I'm almost pacing the floors in anticipation. I sure hope to get a shipping notification soon.
> 
> Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk





shungai said:


> Just ordered a blue bezel no date version (181070GSLID). Can't wait to get it


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

I have two coming and the wait is killing me!!!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GermanyMatt said:


> I have two coming and the wait is killing me!!!


Trust me they'll be worth the wait. Photos don't do them justice especially under natural light.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

On the subject of taxes and a European distribution system I have great news for y'all: I was just contacted by John and Ginault is currently testing their new EU distributor. I've been assured that my order is being shipped from within the EU and will be with me this week (lightning quick!). I've also been assured I won't have to pay VAT as it's being shipped from within the EU. Happy days!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Gfxdaddy said:


> I've also been assured I won't have to pay VAT as it's being shipped from within the EU. Happy days!


That doesn't sound right. Purchases that are shipped within the EU are always subject to VAT. Are Ginault adjusting the price at source to include VAT? In which case then yes tax will not be added when you import into the UK. Are the discounts still valid?


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> That doesn't sound right. Purchases that are shipped within the EU are always subject to VAT. Are Ginault adjusting the price at source to include VAT? In which case then yes tax will not be added when you import into the UK. Are the discounts still valid?


Well I can tell you that I didn't pay a dime extra. I only paid 49.00 USD for shipping on top of the price of the watch (discounted). My purchase receipt was emailed to me on the 24th of July when I was told my watch was being prepared for me with a two week wait period...and I received the watch last night! Talk about quick.

They said they aren't offering discounts any longer when I emailed them a few days ago - I had an interested friend. But it never hurts to ask! What I can tell you from my few hours with this watch (I'm wearing it as I type), initial impressions are very favorable. On the surface no question that this is easily on par with any Oris in terms of fit and finish - only one or two *VERY* minor things stop me from saying its finish is on par with a 5 digit Rolex or a Tudor Black Bay (and those to be honest, are only when you scrutinise the clasp). It blows any Steinhart out of the water...very easily I might add. As for the movement, only time will tell - I'm timing it so will report in a few days with a mini review, including accuracy. As many have said, this is far more impressive in the steel than in pictures. I'd say because of its unproven movement I'd happily pay about 700 USD for what's on my wrist, but for that reason alone. If the movement was proven (or if they'd chucked in a sellita/eta) then it's easily worth the asking price of between 1000 to 1300 USD, in-line with Oris's offerings. I am very, very, very impressed, and Ginault have a fan.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Well I can tell you that I didn't pay a dime extra. I only paid 49.00 USD for shipping on top of the price of the watch (discounted). My purchase receipt was emailed to me on the 24th of July when I was told my watch was being prepared for me with a two week wait period...and I received the watch last night! Talk about quick.
> 
> They said they aren't offering discounts any longer when I emailed them a few days ago - I had an interested friend. But it never hurts to ask! What I can tell you from my few hours with this watch (I'm wearing it as I type), initial impressions are very favorable. On the surface no question that this is easily on par with any Oris in terms of fit and finish - only one or two *VERY* minor things stop me from saying its finish is on par with a 5 digit Rolex or a Tudor Black Bay. It blows any Steinhart out of the water...very easily I might add. As for the movement, only time will tell - I'm timing it so will report in a few days with a mini review, including accuracy. As many have said, this is far more impressive in the steel than in pictures. I'd say because of its unproven movement I'd happily pay about 700 USD for what's on my wrist, but for that reason alone. If the movement was proven (or if they'd chucked in a sellita/eta) then it's easily worth the asking price of between 1000 to 1300 USD, in-line with Oris's offerings. I am very, very, very impressed, and Ginault have a fan.


Nice post, man. I've had mine for 2 weeks now and have worn the Ginault every day. I started monitoring it's accuracy using the "Watchcheck" app (android) from the moment I sized my bracelet through today. The Ocean Rover's accuracy has been fantastic. As of today the watch runs at 0.5sec/day when worn and about 2.5sec/day slow while sitting dial up on my nightstand. All and all my Ginault has only lost 6-8 seconds in 14 days.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Well I can tell you that I didn't pay a dime extra. I only paid 49.00 USD for shipping on top of the price of the watch (discounted). My purchase receipt was emailed to me on the 24th of July when I was told my watch was being prepared for me with a two week wait period...and I received the watch last night! Talk about quick.
> 
> They said they aren't offering discounts any longer when I emailed them a few days ago - I had an interested friend. But it never hurts to ask! What I can tell you from my few hours with this watch (I'm wearing it as I type), initial impressions are very favorable. On the surface no question that this is easily on par with any Oris in terms of fit and finish - only one or two *VERY* minor things stop me from saying its finish is on par with a 5 digit Rolex or a Tudor Black Bay (and those to be honest, are only when you scrutinise the clasp). It blows any Steinhart out of the water...very easily I might add. As for the movement, only time will tell - I'm timing it so will report in a few days with a mini review, including accuracy. As many have said, this is far more impressive in the steel than in pictures. I'd say because of its unproven movement I'd happily pay about 700 USD for what's on my wrist, but for that reason alone. If the movement was proven (or if they'd chucked in a sellita/eta) then it's easily worth the asking price of between 1000 to 1300 USD, in-line with Oris's offerings. I am very, very, very impressed, and Ginault have a fan.


Another happy customer. 
I've been wearing a Ginault daily for the past 3 months. No one has commented on this but its worth mentioning. The quality/hardness of the steel used to make the case (don't use the bracelet so can't comment on this outsourced item) is excellent. I can't see a single scratch or ding in the metal. 
While I appreciate the comments re the movement the fact that it keeps time so consistently bodes well. I was initially very skeptical re the retail pricing, but the more I wear the watch and appreciate the details, the more I'm leaning towards an acceptance that the price may well be justified. 
I've heard some are still getting 40% discount codes if they email Ginault direct and request one. Others have said there are no more discounts, which is a little odd.


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## Cali kid (Feb 7, 2009)

CRYSTAL IS PERFECT, doesn't need AR and when was the last time ROLEX used AR on one of their watches.. It's time to start giving this great watch a little credit, too many people bashing it that have never held one and couldn't pick one out in a police line up



Avo said:


> I don't notice the lack of AR on mine. The underside of the crystal (where the AR would usually be) is shaped in such a way as to diffuse reflections from it. On their web site, Ginault says "we specifically designed Ginault 30.4 Dome with almost no direct light reflection point." For me it works.


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## Cali kid (Feb 7, 2009)

This just came in from Sweden for a crazy price, not sure what I will do with it at the moment and maybe will just hang on to it. Better idea would be to put it on my 16610 1995 W serial Sub and throw the rattle monster with cheap end links and a clasp Rolex should have got rid of in the early 1980's into the green Rolex box...
Ginault bracelet and clasp still wrapped in plastic


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Cali kid said:


> CRYSTAL IS PERFECT, doesn't need AR and when was the last time ROLEX used AR on one of their watches.. It's time to start giving this great watch a little credit, too many people bashing it that have never held one and couldn't pick one out in a police line up


As far as I understand it, all modern 6 digit Rolex sports models have AR and a super nice one that doesn't scratch off or give off weird color hues. But then again the 116610 is $8,000 plus.

In terms of the Ocean Rover, there is no AR but the underside of the crystal is designed to eliminate reflection as much as possible. I will admit it is no Rolex level when it comes to eliminating the reflection but between this or the generic AR that is usually applied on the cheaper homages, I'd pick this any day.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Well I can tell you that I didn't pay a dime extra. I only paid 49.00 USD for shipping on top of the price of the watch (discounted). My purchase receipt was emailed to me on the 24th of July when I was told my watch was being prepared for me with a two week wait period...and I received the watch last night! Talk about quick.
> 
> They said they aren't offering discounts any longer when I emailed them a few days ago - I had an interested friend. But it never hurts to ask! What I can tell you from my few hours with this watch (I'm wearing it as I type), initial impressions are very favorable. On the surface no question that this is easily on par with any Oris in terms of fit and finish - only one or two *VERY* minor things stop me from saying its finish is on par with a 5 digit Rolex or a Tudor Black Bay (and those to be honest, are only when you scrutinise the clasp). It blows any Steinhart out of the water...very easily I might add. As for the movement, only time will tell - I'm timing it so will report in a few days with a mini review, including accuracy. As many have said, this is far more impressive in the steel than in pictures. I'd say because of its unproven movement I'd happily pay about 700 USD for what's on my wrist, but for that reason alone. If the movement was proven (or if they'd chucked in a sellita/eta) then it's easily worth the asking price of between 1000 to 1300 USD, in-line with Oris's offerings. I am very, very, very impressed, and Ginault have a fan.


I think the 40% off offering is still on going. I emailed them wondering if there is still any on going discount offers and got a 1 time use code for 40% off. I am thinking of pulling the trigger on the BGW9 no date version. But at the same time, I am thinking of saving up for a Tudor BB.

I am willing to pay full retail for this watch. It is worth the asking price to me. A discount even at 20% 30% would make this such a great bargain let along a 40% discount.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Cali kid said:


> CRYSTAL IS PERFECT, doesn't need AR and when was the last time ROLEX used AR on one of their watches.. It's time to start giving this great watch a little credit, too many people bashing it that have never held one and couldn't pick one out in a police line up


Believe me, properly applied AR makes a massive difference. Take any Omega next to a Tudor BB or older Rolex and see. Newer Rolex watches use AR on the inside. My planet ocean made my former GMT Master look shoddy in comparison for this reason, but it's something you don't appreciate until you have them side by side.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

mf1tym said:


> I think the 40% off offering is still on going. I emailed them wondering if there is still any on going discount offers and got a 1 time use code for 40% off. I am thinking of pulling the trigger on the BGW9 no date version. But at the same time, I am thinking of saving up for a Tudor BB.
> 
> I am willing to pay full retail for this watch. It is worth the asking price to me. A discount even at 20% 30% would make this such a great bargain let along a 40% discount.


Curious, are you based in the UK / Europe?


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Concerning underwater reflections, I just did a dive last week with the OR, and can attest that it performs fantastic. 
One can see the time from an angle that (anecdotally) I found to be similar to the one with the Seiko Tunas, which means very good. 

I didn't take any pictures because I did not have my GoPro with me, but starting August 21st I'll be on a week long dive trip and will take many. 

Will report back.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Loving this so far-this is one beautiful watch. Crappy low light shot of it next to my Planet Ocean included, I'll be wearing for a week before I leave my considered thoughts on it. But initial impressions are very VERY good. Color me surprised.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Loving this so far-this is one beautiful watch. Crappy low light shot of it next to my Planet Ocean included, I'll be wearing for a week before I leave my considered thoughts on it. But initial impressions are very VERY good. Color me surprised.
> 
> View attachment 12416169


It sounds like your experience is much like mine. Before I pulled the trigger, I read every blog, watched every YouTube review and had some email exchanges with John McMurtry. Even after consuming all of that overwhelmingly positive info, I think the Ginault is even better than my already high expectations.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## shungai (Aug 6, 2017)

Great service and great watch from this company!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I'll leave these here......


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

What's going on here ? Leather Strap and try-wise a ceramic insert? Nice!


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Here's my Ginault's 2nd week of movement tracking. Steady as can be.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

My Ginault arrived  this thing is beautiful!!!! I have already gotten some scratches from the glidelock  that thing is sharp as #@*% I am going to spend some time with it before I give my final thoughts. But initial ones are very positive. The glidelock was a little tight, and I am hoping it loosens up as time goes on. 

I still love my Steinhart's, and they have set the bar high (IMO) for perfection. Initial squeaky bracelet on Ginault, that my Steinhart's didn't have.

I plan on a brutally honest review. I will say, Ginault has been nothing but top notch to deal with, and they have answered MANY more emails than any company should ever have to  This blue/gold bezel is freaking sexy. The dial is freaking sexy. the bracelet is sexy after a few beers  the hands are gorgeous, the indices make me want to dive in and swim around in their golden sandiness, but it will get there hopefully with a little tlc. I will eventually start my own thread, but for now I wanted to see if any other previous owners had the same experience with their bracelet. (glidelock a little stiff, squeaky bracelet) did these improve over time?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> My Ginault arrived  this thing is beautiful!!!! I have already gotten some scratches from the glidelock  that thing is sharp as #@*% I am going to spend some time with it before I give my final thoughts. But initial ones are very positive. The glidelock was a little tight, and I am hoping it loosens up as time goes on.
> 
> I still love my Steinhart's, and they have set the bar high (IMO) for perfection. Initial squeaky bracelet on Ginault, that my Steinhart's didn't have.
> 
> I plan on a brutally honest review. I will say, Ginault has been nothing but top notch to deal with, and they have answered MANY more emails than any company should ever have to  This blue/gold bezel is freaking sexy. The dial is freaking sexy. the bracelet is sexy after a few beers  the hands are gorgeous, the indices make me want to dive in and swim around in their golden sandiness, but it will get there hopefully with a little tlc. I will eventually start my own thread, but for now I wanted to see if any other previous owners had the same experience with their bracelet. (glidelock a little stiff, squeaky bracelet) did these improve over time?


What, no pic?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> My Ginault arrived  this thing is beautiful!!!! I have already gotten some scratches from the glidelock  that thing is sharp as #@*% I am going to spend some time with it before I give my final thoughts. But initial ones are very positive. The glidelock was a little tight, and I am hoping it loosens up as time goes on.
> 
> I still love my Steinhart's, and they have set the bar high (IMO) for perfection. Initial squeaky bracelet on Ginault, that my Steinhart's didn't have.
> 
> I plan on a brutally honest review. I will say, Ginault has been nothing but top notch to deal with, and they have answered MANY more emails than any company should ever have to  This blue/gold bezel is freaking sexy. The dial is freaking sexy. the bracelet is sexy after a few beers  the hands are gorgeous, the indices make me want to dive in and swim around in their golden sandiness, but it will get there hopefully with a little tlc. I will eventually start my own thread, but for now I wanted to see if any other previous owners had the same experience with their bracelet. (glidelock a little stiff, squeaky bracelet) did these improve over time?


In regards to the squeaky bracelet I had the same issue. Did some research and a lot of advice I read (on Rolex forums) was to wear your watch in the shower and wash your bracelet with soap. Worked for me!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> I'll leave these here......


Where did you source the bezel?


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

Avo said:


> Where did you source the bezel?


I m interested in the ceramic bezel as well..

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Its a Parnis bezel I picked up on Ebay. It's just sitting on the original bezel so hasn't been installed. Decided its not the look for me but if any one is interested I'll sell it for $15 (my cost) and you won't have to wait 6 weeks which is how long it took to arrive from HK. Just PM me.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

If you search the Rolex forums, they experience squeaking as well. In addition to wearing it in the shower, they also recommend the baby oil spa treatment. I did that with mine, because it seemed like the most unstable OCD thing to do. It worked. Plus, it reaffirmed to my wife that I'm insane.


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

The bracelet has loosened up some after washing it us with some dish soap  Thank you for that idea!

I just spent 40 minutes taking pics and editing them. For some reason, it's hit or miss if the site lets me upload them  I will google it and figure it out. But the OR looks great wrapped around a bottle of Captain Morgan Private Stock 

EDIT*****
If you have a Ginault, get a can of "dry lube" if your bracelet is catching or not sliding smoothly as you want. I sprayed the crap out of it and let it soak while I was at work (12 hours) and when I got home, dish soaped it again. It's running smooth as heck now baby!!!! Best $8 spent ;P Although I wish more people would have commented on this being a phenomenon. I am glad it worked out in the end. I am sure with normal use, it would have eventually been fine. 

I am VERY happy with this watch currently.


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## ronragus (Jun 24, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Its a Parnis bezel I picked up on Ebay. It's just sitting on the original bezel so hasn't been installed. Decided its not the look for me but if any one is interested I'll sell it for $15 (my cost) and you won't have to wait 6 weeks which is how long it took to arrive from HK. Just PM me.


How did u know the parnis will fit?

Sent from my LG-H860 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Curious, are you based in the UK / Europe?


Hi, no. I am on the other side of the pond.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> The bracelet has loosened up some after washing it us with some dish soap  Thank you for that idea!
> 
> I just spent 40 minutes taking pics and editing them. For some reason, it's hit or miss if the site lets me upload them  I will google it and figure it out. But the OR looks great wrapped around a bottle of Captain Morgan Private Stock
> 
> ...


Dry lube for bike chains?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well I'm still loving mine, no issues with bracelets or clasps and just happy to post yet another pic.

Hope you are all enjoying yours.

This morning in the garden.


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Dry lube for bike chains?


I believe that will work as well (even better), but I grabbed a can from Advance autoparts that was just labeled "dry lube" 

Although I wish I would have received a perfect bracelet, unfortunately I didn't, and love the watch so much, that i was willing to put a little love into it


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)

Prior to buying these watches, I read over countless reviews, and a lot of early bashing of Ginault that seemed to quickly fade after early adopters started receiving their watches. I'll keep this review short and to the point. I also currently own a Submariner, and have owned and sold several other Rolex models. My primary interest with Ginault was to find a high quality sub homage that I could wear and enjoy, but at a significantly lower price point.

High Points
- The case is beautifully shaped, cut, polished, and brushed. This is THE best case of all the Rolex homages I've owned. The worst is probably, IMO, Steinhart with its skinny straight lugs. 
- The enamel dial is excellent, although I wish the Ocean Rover text was red. Other than that, home run. 
- Glide-lock clasp is also excellent; it's not Rolex quality, but also not stamped garbage like most of the Rolex homages I've put on my wrist over the years 
- The bracelet itself is equal to or better than any other Rolex homage I've purchased in the past. The end links connecting to the case, however, are the best I've ever encountered in any homage
- Accuracy has been excellent. I've tested 2 of the 3 I have and both are well within COSC standards. I'm testing the third now. 
- I personally think the sand lume plots are gorgeous. I actually like it better than the BGW9 lume
- The red second hand is an awesome touch. I love that splash of color; just wish it had some red in the text too
- The crown is excellent and the feedback is very good. Not as satisfying as a Rolex, but can we really expect it to be?

Improvements
- Bezel rotation seems hit and miss. Each of the three models I have turn with varying level of ease. This is probably my biggest gripe. Don't get me wrong, it's still nice, but could be better on the QC side. The bezel cuts could be a bit sharper too so it's easier to grip. 
- Markers; I'd like to see the minute hand shortened ever so slightly

So that's pretty much it. Would I pay full asking price? Hmm, that's a tough one. I'd be happier with the no-date model at $899 and the date at $999. But I see people paying silly amounts of money for MKII Rolex homages, which Ginault is absolutely as good as. I'm sure Ginault is considering a GMT in Pepsi and/or Coke - they'd be crazy not to - and I would probably buy one.

If you're on the fence, I recommend this watch. It's extremely well executed across the board. If you don't have the scratch for a Rolex, this is a very respectable option for far less money. If you have a small wrist, this watch will look fantastic on you since it's sized like the 16610. I'll try to get a picture or two up later.


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## Nanook65 (Mar 2, 2017)

Nice watch for the money. Too many nice divers, not enough $


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Nanook65 said:


> Nice watch for the money. Too many nice divers, not enough $


I hear you. If I had all the dive watches that are on my wish list, it would probably be a couple of dozen.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GermanyMatt said:


> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)


Did they replace the domed crystal with flat? If not the cyclops would add quite a lot more height to the watch. 
I also have the BGW9 model but can't comment on it vs the sand lume which I've not seen in person. Why do you prefer the latter?
IMO a line of red text would unbalance the look especially with the red second hand. Had that been silver then it would work.
I agree with your other points. The quality of the bezel mechanism has been quite variable between the 3 watches I've owned and is the area that needs most attention.


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## mchotdogtw (Aug 7, 2017)

good one ~really


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
> 1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
> 3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)
> ...


Where are the photos  please post tons of pics!

Instagram @ the_watchier


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## Mintu (Feb 12, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
> 1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
> 3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)
> ...


I am about to pull the trigger.
Can you please measure lug to lug distance and tell me?
because some people are reporting 47.5mm and officially Ginault says 50mm.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Mintu said:


> I am about to pull the trigger.
> Can you please measure lug to lug distance and tell me?
> because some people are reporting 47.5mm and officially Ginault says 50mm.


The lug to lug measurement of the OR is 47,5mm, same as the old 5 digit Submariner, cases are identical in shape and size.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> Did they replace the domed crystal with flat? If not the cyclops would add quite a lot more height to the watch.
> I also have the BGW9 model but can't comment on it vs the sand lume which I've not seen in person. Why do you prefer the latter?
> IMO a line of red text would unbalance the look especially with the red second hand. Had that been silver then it would work.
> I agree with your other points. The quality of the bezel mechanism has been quite variable between the 3 watches I've owned and is the area that needs most attention.


Yes, domed crystal was replaced with flat for the cyclops addition. The sand lume preference - I just find it more unique and it gives the watch just a hint of a vintage look without being over the top like others. It's all down to visual preference really; both are great.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GermanyMatt said:


> Yes, domed crystal was replaced with flat for the cyclops addition. The sand lume preference - I just find it more unique and it gives the watch just a hint of a vintage look without being over the top like others. It's all down to visual preference really; both are great.


I think this another great aspect of Ginault. Try asking a Steinhart or any other major brand for customization like that. And at no additional cost. Brilliant. 
And I think this goes some way to dispelling the myth that the watches are just shipped in from China.

Yes, lets see some pics.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> I think this another great aspect of Ginault. Try asking a Steinhart or any other major brand for customization like that. And at no additional cost. Brilliant.
> And I think this goes some way to dispelling the myth that the watches are just shipped in from China.
> 
> Yes, lets see some pics.


I will do my best to get pics tonight after dinner. Agree it was very nice of them to do the custom work and not charge extra for it.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Pictures as promised. I put a Maratac Nato on one just to show a nato look since I know several people like to wear these with strap of this type. I purchased several colors and thought the green looked best. All these watches come with two piece nato straps as well. The blue bezel and white lume models each came with army green; the sand lume came with a khaki/sand color. I hope these pictures do the watches justice. The blue bezel on the date model really is stunning. The blue is a satin silk tone that changes from blue to black depending on the light. I like the cyclops, but it does reflect quite a bit of light - regardless, I need it as my eyes aren't as good as they once were.

I also took pictures of the case back, as it has changed a few times. I don't have one with the old 'made in usa/america' that was shortly removed after the prototypes were released. The rather plain caseback is from the vintage sand lume model; the one that's more dressed up is from both the white lume and blue bezel models.

My favorite, you ask? It's probably the blue bezel with date, just because I find the combination of the sand lume and the sand colored marker on the bezel well done, and the blue of the bezel is really sharp. The no-date sand lume variant is a close second. I think a lot of people will like the GBW9 plots and blue lume of the newest model.

If you're on the fence, I wouldn't wait too long as these seem to be gaining in popularity and I'm sure the discounts aren't as easily obtained from Ginault.

All three watches are running well within COSC specs. In fact, each is within plus or minus 1 second per day. We'll see how that changes over the coming weeks.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

I forgot to mention - I bought the sand lume no date model pre-owned, so the ones listed on Ginault's website would almost certainly come with the newer case back, which is better executed (obviously). Just wanted to throw that out there.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Nice to see the various models in the same field of view. I've been on the fence with the sand lume but may cave in and get one based on your excellent photos. 
I agree the reflections in the cyclops were very distracting. Rolex apparently uses an AR coating on this part to minimize that issue. Newer case back is a definite improvement.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I initially had my cyclops prototype on a Nato but didn't like the height the strap added on the wrist. I now wear my BGW9 on black leather strap which keeps it low profile and very comfortable to wear.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> I initially had my cyclops prototype on a Nato but didn't like the height the strap added on the wrist. I now wear my BGW9 on black leather strap which keeps it low profile and very comfortable to wear.


I agree. The NATO looks pretty sharp, but I have yet to find one that's as comfortable as a bracelet, or leather, or rubber. I have a black Isofrane that I briefly thought about mounting to the white plot model, but decided against it and remounted the bracelet. Leather would look great, but my selection of nice 20mm leather straps is slim at best.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Gfxdaddy said:


> Loving this so far-this is one beautiful watch. Crappy low light shot of it next to my Planet Ocean included, I'll be wearing for a week before I leave my considered thoughts on it. But initial impressions are very VERY good. Color me surprised.
> 
> View attachment 12416169


Nice photos!

The Rover doesn't look shabby at all next to one of the most popular Swiss brand. It can certainly hold its own.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Loving the BGW9 version.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

It looks magnificent on tropic. May I ask where you sourced one? 
I'm looking for a cheap tropic, the vintage ones are too expensive. 


Unrelated: starting tomorrow I'll be diving with the Ginault in Ustica (southern Italy), I should be able to post pics in a week but if I manage before I'll put up a couple


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Seppia said:


> It looks magnificent on tropic. May I ask where you sourced one?
> I'm looking for a cheap tropic, the vintage ones are too expensive.
> 
> Unrelated: starting tomorrow I'll be diving with the Ginault in Ustica (southern Italy), I should be able to post pics in a week but if I manage before I'll put up a couple


Check Janis trading, not the cheapest but good quality.
There is one ebay seller that sometime have them available, but currently he has the 18 and the 22mm only.
Good luck

Instagram @ the_watchier


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Came in yesterday


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Seppia said:


> starting tomorrow I'll be diving with the Ginault in Ustica (southern Italy)


Sounds like great fun, enjoy!

We'll be looking forward to the pics!


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

My thoughts exactly! I'm about to get this one [for my bgw9 no date] as it is highly regarded on this forum.

https://www.watchgecko.com/zuludiver-tropic-rubber-strap.php



Seppia said:


> It looks magnificent on tropic. May I ask where you sourced one?
> I'm looking for a cheap tropic, the vintage ones are too expensive.
> 
> Unrelated: starting tomorrow I'll be diving with the Ginault in Ustica (southern Italy), I should be able to post pics in a week but if I manage before I'll put up a couple


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Thanks gents for the recommendations!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Mine is still going strong. Great to see this company thriving.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

I've had my Ginault for a month now and I've been monitoring it's accuracy since day 1. My particular watch averaged 
+0.8 sec/day according to the 6 weeks of testing at Ginault. Here's the last 10 days that I have tracked. +0.1 sec/day average.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> I think this another great aspect of Ginault. Try asking a Steinhart or any other major brand for customization like that. And at no additional cost. Brilliant.
> And I think this goes some way to dispelling the myth that the watches are just shipped in from China.
> 
> Yes, lets see some pics.


I agree. This willingness to customize a watch for a specific order strongly suggests the watches are at least assembled locally.

My original version that I purchased back in late December / early January is still going strong after 8+ months in heavy rotation. I'm happy to see Ginault doing well and I look forward to their next release.


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## Tony Pinette (Aug 21, 2017)

I am torn between the sand lume and the BGW9. Do you find there is more depth/texture to the sand lume or do you prefer it just based on the color alone?

- T


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Seppia said:


> It looks magnificent on tropic. May I ask where you sourced one?
> I'm looking for a cheap tropic, the vintage ones are too expensive.





cwfmon said:


> My thoughts exactly! I'm about to get this one [for my bgw9 no date] as it is highly regarded on this forum.
> 
> https://www.watchgecko.com/zuludiver-tropic-rubber-strap.php


I have had a couple of vintage tropic straps, they ooze character and keep a lovely sheen. But they are thin and I'm not sure how long they would last, I would hate to see one break while on the wrist.

The tropic style I pictured was less than £10 from eBay seller 'watcharama'. (There are a few others selling what looks the same product at similar prices) It is a great size and design, but it is only 'silicone rubber'. And while not as bad as other cheap 'silicone' straps for collecting lint, it does do so a little. I think it is a blend, but I have had better blends.

I have also had really nice 'Italian rubber' straps. Whatever this is, I would choose this every time. Soft, comfortable, durable, no lint and smells good - kind of vanilla.

I have never really been able to work out the exact detail of the rubber compound used in straps - especially budget friendly ones. Sellers usually don't know or don't reply when I ask is it natural rubber, nitrile rubber, nbr, vulcanised etc.

I would be be interested to see what the quality of the watchgecko version is like. I have used watchgecko a few times and always been pleased with quality for the price. So, if anyone has that version - does it collect lint? And does it smell nice?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Oh, and I am looking for a curved end rubber strap for the Ginault. Has to be nice rubber as per above 

Any pointers?


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## Tony Pinette (Aug 21, 2017)

I am torn between the sand lume and the BGW9. Do you find there is more depth/texture to the sand lume or do you prefer it just based on the color alone?

- T




GermanyMatt said:


> So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
> 1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
> 3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)
> ...


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Tony Pinette said:


> I am torn between the sand lume and the BGW9. Do you find there is more depth/texture to the sand lume or do you prefer it just based on the color alone?
> 
> - T


Really hard choice as both are great. I find the sand lume gives it a bit of a vintage appeal where the BGW9 does not. Both have great texture and depth, so it's really just color of the plots and the lume - green vs blue.


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Tony Pinette said:


> I am torn between the sand lume and the BGW9. Do you find there is more depth/texture to the sand lume or do you prefer it just based on the color alone?
> 
> - T


I think the sand lume shows more texture and really stands out against the silver applied indices. It really depends what you are going for with the watch. If it's in a rotation I'd say get the sand lume because it really changes depending on the environment you are in. The BGW9 is less dynamic which I don't think is a bad thing for daily wear.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

G4_Chrono said:


> .
> 
> I would be be interested to see what the quality of the watchgecko version is like. I have used watchgecko a few times and always been pleased with quality for the price. So, if anyone has that version - does it collect lint? And does it smell nice?


I would bet watchgecko straps are made by bonetto (Italian), they have just too many models in common and Bonetto is a third party supplier as well


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## Tony Pinette (Aug 21, 2017)

Thank you, I went with the sand lume. I agree. It stands out.


trf2271 said:


> I think the sand lume shows more texture and really stands out against the silver applied indices. It really depends what you are going for with the watch. If it's in a rotation I'd say get the sand lume because it really changes depending on the environment you are in. The BGW9 is less dynamic which I don't think is a bad thing for daily wear.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

G4_Chrono said:


> Oh, and I am looking for a curved end rubber strap for the Ginault. Has to be nice rubber as per above
> 
> Any pointers?


Any curved strap designed for a 5 digit sub would fit beautifully. Plenty of options there.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> Any curved strap designed for a 5 digit sub would fit beautifully. Plenty of options there.


yep. for example Everest straps:


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## guttaperk (Feb 28, 2016)

Dammit, my watch budget is blown, but I want one of these.


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## Mintu (Feb 12, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> yep. for example Everest straps:
> 
> View attachment 12446589


Superb.
Can you post the pic of the buckle side?
Did you use Ginault bracelet clasp?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

guttaperk said:


> Dammit, my watch budget is blown, but I want one of these.


That's not a problem, you just have to adjust your watch budget.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

mf1tym said:


> Hi, no. I am on the other side of the pond.


Ah. It was regarding the Tudor you were interested in. Oh well


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Tony Pinette said:


> I am torn between the sand lume and the BGW9. Do you find there is more depth/texture to the sand lume or do you prefer it just based on the color alone?
> 
> - T


It's more 'custard' than gold, but I guess 'custard-sand-lume' doesn't sound as catchy. There's definitely more texture to the GSL version, and in my opinion it gives the watch a little more character (subjective opinion). I'd initially wanted the BGW9 version but I'm quite happy I went for the GSL instead. I'd say this - if you want a more modern aesthetic then go white/blue. For a more vintage feel (and for something that stands out from the crowd a little more) go gold.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Mintu said:


> Superb.
> Can you post the pic of the buckle side?
> Did you use Ginault bracelet clasp?


Yes, I did and it fits perfectly. In fact I've got the strap/clasp combo on my Explorer now.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Just fyi, my review is live: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181070gsln-review-4517041.html


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

GermanyMatt said:


> So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
> 1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
> 3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)
> ...


Hi I wanted to ask you (and anyone else) a question about the bezel. I just got the 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume). I'm experiencing some slight bezel play whereas all I had read/watched about the Ginault original version was no play at all. And there's a good deal of vertical bezel play (I think this is the right term). It turns pretty easily also. I e-mailed John (who really is great) and he said this is all intentional in line with the Rolex 16610. But if that's the case I'm not understanding why my experience would be different than all I've heard about the original.

You mentioned variance - is the version I have the one you have the most play/ease with? Is this indeed "normal" for this version? Grateful for feedback.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RJS296 said:


> Hi I wanted to ask you (and anyone else) a question about the bezel. I just got the 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume). I'm experiencing some slight bezel play whereas all I had read/watched about the Ginault original version was no play at all. And there's a good deal of vertical bezel play (I think this is the right term). It turns pretty easily also. I e-mailed John (who really is great) and he said this is all intentional in line with the Rolex 16610. But if that's the case I'm not understanding why my experience would be different than all I've heard about the original.
> 
> You mentioned variance - is the version I have the one you have the most play/ease with? Is this indeed "normal" for this version? Grateful for feedback.


For my particular example, there is very little backplay. It's very minimal so I can say this as good as my 116610LV which has a different and improved internal bezel design.

As to the vertical play, mine does have it where my 116610LV does not. The vertical play is by design as Ginault was trying to recreate the auto-lock bezel design used on the classic Subs. On my particular example the auto-lock design does not really work. I can turn the bezel with or without pressing down. But in all fairness this is pretty much the same on all the 16610 Subs I have touched and played with as well.

It is worth to mention that turning while pressing down does make the action a bit smoother.


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

RJS296 said:


> Hi I wanted to ask you (and anyone else) a question about the bezel. I just got the 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume). I'm experiencing some slight bezel play whereas all I had read/watched about the Ginault original version was no play at all. And there's a good deal of vertical bezel play (I think this is the right term). It turns pretty easily also. I e-mailed John (who really is great) and he said this is all intentional in line with the Rolex 16610. But if that's the case I'm not understanding why my experience would be different than all I've heard about the original.
> 
> You mentioned variance - is the version I have the one you have the most play/ease with? Is this indeed "normal" for this version? Grateful for feedback.


I've got zero play, but the bezel action is too stiff. Check out my review for the details.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Of the 3 Ginaults I've owned, 2 had very loose bezel actions, such that no downward pressure was needed to rotate the ring. These had quite a lot of vertical play and a crunchy feel when pressed. The 3rd was much stiffer, with virtually no vertical motion. This was my favourite of the 3. There is definitely some watch to watch variation and I'm not sure which component(s) are contributing to this difference.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

As promised. 
Viewing angle is good



















And it performs as it should


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Of the three I currently own, the blue bezel with date model is the most stiff, but seems to be loosening up some the more I toy with it. The two no-date models I have are about the same, which is just about right. I do wish the bezel edges were cut sharper to have more grip. That's really my only complaint with the watch - the rest is well executed at this price point.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> For my particular example, there is very little backplay. It's very minimal so I can say this as good as my 116610LV which has a different and improved internal bezel design.
> 
> As to the vertical play, mine does have it where my 116610LV does not. The vertical play is by design as Ginault was trying to recreate the auto-lock bezel design used on the classic Subs. On my particular example the auto-lock design does not really work. I can turn the bezel with or without pressing down. But in all fairness this is pretty much the same on all the 16610 Subs I have touched and played with as well.
> 
> It is worth to mention that turning while pressing down does make the action a bit smoother.


Yes that's what I'm experiencing - no massive auto-lock success as i can turn either pressing or not, and the very smooth turn requires a very light touch down. It's fine, was just expecting something tighter with no wiggle based on some of the no play laudatory comments I saw on threads/in vids.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Of the 3 Ginaults I've owned, 2 had very loose bezel actions, such that no downward pressure was needed to rotate the ring. These had quite a lot of vertical play and a crunchy feel when pressed. The 3rd was much stiffer, with virtually no vertical motion. This was my favourite of the 3. There is definitely some watch to watch variation and I'm not sure which component(s) are contributing to this difference.


Yes makes sense now that I've prob got one more like your 2 looser ones.


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## namewasdallas (Aug 24, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> Pics are with my iPhone, the best I have right now. Took them under fairly bright inside light.
> 
> View attachment 12374841
> 
> ...


Only thing I would change about the ginault is the solid end links to be the same length as the case lugs or and sit flush with the lugs much like the tudor looks like there's no dip from case lug yo end link to case lug. Leave a little more meat on the end links


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## namewasdallas (Aug 24, 2017)

What in trying to say is have the braclet end link look like it's the same as the case. So it doesn't look like a case with a random beautiful braclet. I want it to flow as once part when you look at where it connects to the case.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

namewasdallas said:


> Only thing I would change about the ginault is the solid end links to be the same length as the case lugs or and sit flush with the lugs much like the tudor looks like there's no dip from case lug yo end link to case lug. Leave a little more meat on the end links


I thought it odd at first, then realized it's the same on the sub which is why I assume they did it.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> I thought it odd at first, then realized it's the same on the sub which is why I assume they did it.
> 
> View attachment 12455667


Exactly. I like the step down design. The sharp edges just illustrate how well machined the Ginault is vs its competitors.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

namewasdallas said:


> What in trying to say is have the braclet end link look like it's the same as the case. So it doesn't look like a case with a random beautiful braclet. I want it to flow as once part when you look at where it connects to the case.


Yeah, it's the same as Rolex, as others have pointed out. If you look at where the end links meet the case (holding it up at eye level) you'll see how the lower sections of the end links subtly angle down to the center link so that the center link has the proper height. Beautifully machined, exactly like Rolex.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

RJS296 said:


> Yes that's what I'm experiencing - no massive auto-lock success as i can turn either pressing or not, and the very smooth turn requires a very light touch down. It's fine, was just expecting something tighter with no wiggle based on some of the no play laudatory comments I saw on threads/in vids.


The bezel of the Ginault OR operate in the same manner as the Rolex 16610/16800/14060, unidirectional with a click spring working the internal teeth of the the bezel ring, no relation with the "push down to release" auto lock feature of the omnidirectional bezel used on the 5 digit Rolexes.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

kelt said:


> The bezel of the Ginault OR operate in the same manner as the Rolex 16610/16800/14060, unidirectional with a click spring working the internal teeth of the the bezel ring, no relation with the "push down to release" auto lock feature of the omnidirectional bezel used on the 5 digit Rolexes.


I'm not so sure. I messaged John at Ginault, and he said they were mimicking original rolex 5 digit air-lock system (at least my version of the ginault is).


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

You guys must muck about with your bezels more than I do


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

59er said:


> You guys must muck about with your bezels more than I do


It's a great timing feature. Use it every day in the laboratory.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

On a Watch Gecko Tropic strap. Highly recommend.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> On a Watch Gecko Tropic strap. Highly recommend.
> View attachment 12460749


Nice! Looks good, it has a nice sheen to it.

Does it attract lint?
How does it smell?!
edit: and does it take the Ginault spring bars?


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## namewasdallas (Aug 24, 2017)

So I think I'm going to purchase my first ginault ocean rover which will be my best watch to date from a member here.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Nope, doesn't seem to attract lint. It smells a little like citrus and vanilla, but it's a very light scent. I did not use the Ginault springbars, as it was a tight fit. I probably could have used some lube to make it fit, but in the end I just used the springbars provided by Watch Gecko. They work well. I think this is the first time I've mentioned lube in a watch forum. 



G4_Chrono said:


> Nice! Looks good, it has a nice sheen to it.
> 
> Does it attract lint?
> How does it smell?!
> edit: and does it take the Ginault spring bars?


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## binhpham1985 (Aug 27, 2017)

nice watch


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

A couple shots from this evening:


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## Scholes (Jun 9, 2015)

Hey, does anyone happen to know where to source a black bezel with vintage lume pip that will fit the Ocean-Rover?

Thanks!


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## Murdoxh (Aug 3, 2017)

Scholes said:


> Hey, does anyone happen to know where to source a black bezel with vintage lume pip that will fit the Ocean-Rover?
> 
> Thanks!


Try contacting Ginault, maybe they can source one for you


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## Scholes (Jun 9, 2015)

I contacted the customer service about purchasing a bezel from the company. John McMurtry emailed back and said they plan to add a parts list to the website at some point "down the road." He didn't offer to let one me buy one or offer to help in any kind of way.

I've knicked the oem bezel and wanted to get a replacement as close to the original as possible. I've found a pepsi bezel and a vintage style coke/gold bezel that fit the watch well. The problem is always the lume pip. I can find a black submariner 16610 bezel but not with vintage lume. I suppose I could buy some lume paint and try to paint one but that's not quite the same.

Here are some gratuitous wrist shots with a couple of the different bezels.


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## thomlad54 (Oct 3, 2006)

They look great. Where did you source them and did you have to modify them to fit the bezel?

Thom


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## Scholes (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks, Thom. I got them from Seller Wholesaleoutlet990 off of eBay. They snapped right into the bezel ring, no modification needed.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I think they look great!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Instead of trying to paint the pip, have you tried to stain it?

From what I have read, the common practice of guys who are trying to "vintagize" their watch is to either stain (using tea or coffee) the bezel insert or bake it slightly until it turns that vintage tan color.

I've never tried doing this myself, but if you can find a cheap insert to practice on, you might give it a go. 

My suggestion would be to first attempt staining as I believe the baking process kills the lume, or at least really degrades it.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

It it should be possible to take the pip out of the Ginault bezel and swap it into the replacement bezel. Maybe?



Scholes said:


> I contacted the customer service about purchasing a bezel from the company. John McMurtry emailed back and said they plan to add a parts list to the website at some point "down the road." He didn't offer to let one me buy one or offer to help in any kind of way.
> 
> I've knicked the oem bezel and wanted to get a replacement as close to the original as possible. I've found a pepsi bezel and a vintage style coke/gold bezel that fit the watch well. The problem is always the lume pip. I can find a black submariner 16610 bezel but not with vintage lume. I suppose I could buy some lume paint and try to paint one but that's not quite the same.
> 
> Here are some gratuitous wrist shots with a couple of the different bezels.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> Nope, doesn't seem to attract lint. It smells a little like citrus and vanilla, but it's a very light scent. I did not use the Ginault springbars, as it was a tight fit. I probably could have used some lube to make it fit, but in the end I just used the springbars provided by Watch Gecko. They work well. I think this is the first time I've mentioned lube in a watch forum.


thanks for the feedback. It sounds like it is better quality rubber than the £10 silicone rubber versions available on eBay.

I might have to order one . .


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Scholes said:


> I contacted the customer service about purchasing a bezel from the company. John McMurtry emailed back and said they plan to add a parts list to the website at some point "down the road." He didn't offer to let one me buy one or offer to help in any kind of way


I'm wondering if you asked specifically about replaciing the bezel with an identical one because yours got scratched (as opposed to buying a different bezel to change the look of the watch). There might be more sympathy for the replace-damaged-part situation ...


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## Scholes (Jun 9, 2015)

I mentioned in the email that I had damaged the bezel and wanted to replace it. Anyway, thanks for the input everyone. I may leave that vintage coke bezel on it for a little while. It's sort of strange, and I think I like it :-!


Edit to Add: John at Ginault got back with me, and they are sending me a new bezel. He just sent me an invoice for it via PayPal. The cost was $85.00 though for anyone who might be interested.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Scholes said:


> I contacted the customer service about purchasing a bezel from the company. John McMurtry emailed back and said they plan to add a parts list to the website at some point "down the road." He didn't offer to let one me buy one or offer to help in any kind of way.
> 
> I've knicked the oem bezel and wanted to get a replacement as close to the original as possible. I've found a pepsi bezel and a vintage style coke/gold bezel that fit the watch well. The problem is always the lume pip. I can find a black submariner 16610 bezel but not with vintage lume. I suppose I could buy some lume paint and try to paint one but that's not quite the same.
> 
> Here are some gratuitous wrist shots with a couple of the different bezels.


Did you tell them that you had damaged your OR insert or simply ask if the insert was available for individual purchase?

Seems unusual that they wouldn't want to help you get your OR back to perfect condition.

*Wooops I just saw your answer in the post above, don't mind me.*


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

This thread needs some LUME to brighten the day!!!
Which one is the Ginault Ocean Rover?!?!?







Glad that you got your OR sorted out!! That will be great when they add a parts list!!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Scholes said:


> John at Ginault got back with me, and they are sending me a new bezel. He just sent me an invoice for it via PayPal. The cost was $85.00 though for anyone who might be interested.


Well that's a little pricey, IMO, but good that they're willing to provide the part.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Avo said:


> Well that's a little pricey, IMO, but good that they're willing to provide the part.


Bezel insert or entire bezel with insert? Its pricey for aluminum insert only

Edit: quoted the wrong post sorry


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## Scholes (Jun 9, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Bezel insert or entire bezel with insert? Its pricey for aluminum insert only
> 
> Edit: quoted the wrong post sorry


Just the insert, pretty sure. I didn't clarify that for certain. Yah, I thought it was crazy high, but wasn't high enough to run me off. I didn't want to pay that much for it though, for sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Scholes said:


> cost was $85.00


Yikes. Compare to Steinhart's 12,60 Euro pricing. Hate to think what a new crystal will cost. Better stop swinging my arms....


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Note to self...............................don't damage bezel insert!


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Outrageous price!

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

marcell said:


> Outrageous price!
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Several people have bought third party inserts - if it fits the old Sub, it will apparently fit the Ginault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

marcell said:


> Outrageous price!
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Not when compared to the cost of a genuine Submariner bezel insert! quality has value!


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

A beautiful Sunday and a beautiful watch.









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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Labor Day Weekend wrist check. Something a little different. Omega sharkskin double ridge strap paired with a BWG9 OR


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Here's mine on a bonetto cinturini 400


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Still loving mine on the bracelet.


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

Here is my Date+Cyclops Rover on the original bracelet.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GT1-Reach said:


> Here is my Date+Cyclops Rover on the original bracelet.
> 
> View attachment 12486585


Looking good. How does it stand up to comparison with your Dad's Rolex submariner? I see you replaced the hands? Did your watchmaker do that for you. Any comments from a pro regarding the movement?


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

The Ginault holds up pretty good compared to the original Rolex Submariner. I think the best thing about the Ginault is the main case. It is pretty much on the same Level as the submariner. It is really good. I think i do pros and cons for the moment, it is the best way:

+Main Case - This is in my eyes pretty much on the same level as the Original.
+Dial - It is of very good quality. The blackness, the indices, the writing,lettering, clear and crisp. Love it
+The original Ginault hands are beatiful, great shine,very high quality. But they are just not my cup of tea.
+The feeling and quality of the crown. Very, very solid. That is often the point where i feel that a watch is maybe of not that high quality. But this is so nice. On level with the Sub in my eyes. Pulling the crown out you get an instant feeling this thing is waterproof and solid.
+Caseback. Maybe not that big of a deal, but i find it very nice
+Movement accuracy is top notch. dont need more words

+- Crystal is pretty much flawless, but i replaced it with another crystal thats got the black hole effect. The original date cyclops reflected like crazy in my eyes, now its superb. but a pretty pricy upgrade.
+- The Bracelet is definitely nice, but not the same quality as the original. There is a reason why these things cost around 1000 euros or dollars used. Mine makes a little bit of noise, but it does not bother me. I think it will wear off with time
+- the bezel turn isnt that nice on my model. You know it guys, there is pretty much no better bezel turn than on a original Sub. I think the bezel on my old Davosa is nicer than on the Ocean Rover. btw i also call her Gina. Ginault = Gina? You see why  haha

I think there is no real - on this watch, it aint no steinhart or something else in this category. In my eyes this is the last step before an original sub. on the (good) bottom is the Invicta 8926, than a few steps up come the Davosas, squales, steinharts (btw i got the new 39mm Steinhart Ocean One incoming, i will tell you how it is when you want, as soon its here, i really dont know why i ordered the steinhart, i think im just curious because i really liked the 42mm ocean one but it was just too big for me. I think Steinhart is my favourite besides the ocean rover) than a pretty big step up is the Gina, and than finally the original sub.

I know many of you won't believe me, but the ocean rover is such a nice piece, i really dont think i will ever go buy the real Sub. The Lust for the Rolex badge wore off a pretty long time ago, but thats not the topic right now here ...

Sorry guys i am drifting away.

A few words about the movement:

First i gotta say that my watchsmith is not a trained professional, he does this since he is 17, now he is 52 years old, so it is plausible he saw many many watches over the time. He does this as a "sidejob" i would say. His workshop is a registered workshop, so no friend of a friend who does these things. He is a very kind and honest guy, he says what he really thinks without any watch snobery or hate for lesser known watch brands going on.

He said to me that this is a decent movement, but in his eyes it is far away from a genuine ETA Movement. He also repairs Replicas sometimes with asian clone movements, he said that gina's movement is definitely much much better than these asian clones, but its not on the swiss level either. 

He said it so: If 0 is the asian level movement and a genuine swiss ETA is a 10, than the ginaults movement is somewhere around a 6 or 7. He also said he would not be enthusiastic about giving this movement a service. He would do it, but yeah. Maybe he said this because he never saw a ginaults movement before. I mean of course its very similar to a 2824, but this clone in particular i mean. 

But he also said that its a very very nice watch overall.

I had him replace the Hands, he said that he got to modify the seconds hand a little bit because it didnt fit instantly. Thats kind of awkward, cause the hands are i provided are 100% for ETA 2824 movements, but hmhmm yes. I contacted ginault on this topic, they answered me that ETA hands would fit 100%. hhmmm

Yeah overall i got to say that this watch is a stunner. I love it.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Great review and pretty much reflects what most owners feel about this watch. The squeaky bracelet can be addressed by soaking in oil. I've never used any of the bracelets, preferring NATO's or leather straps. 
Interesting you chose to replace the crystal. Is it domed or beveled like the original? Double or single AR coating? I know this is contentious but I would personally like to see Ginault include an inner AR coating.


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

The crystal is pretty much the same in terms of form but it is double AR coated.

Here is a comparison to show you the Black hole effect i was aiming for. Alternatively you can google "Black Hole Effect Rolex" for more examples. The first time i came across this phenomenon when i compared the Tisell Sub (i dont own it anymore) to my Davosa. I was surprised how better readable the date on the Tisell was. I dont know if this is still the case on the models Tisell produces at the moment. Since this moment this black hole effect is a big thing for me. It does make a nice difference in my eyes.

Please excuse the terrible state my Davosa is at the moment. Using it for experiments and stuff.


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## sevens (Nov 2, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Looking good. How does it stand up to comparison with your Dad's Rolex submariner? I see you replaced the hands? Did your watchmaker do that for you. Any comments from a pro regarding the movement?


Where do you find the hands for replacement ?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

sevens said:


> Where do you find the hands for replacement ?


There are many suppiers of Submariner style handsets for 2824 movements, most of the well known watchpart suppliers and swags of ebay sellers.


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

For example Helena round got some nice with c1 lume.

Info BTW:

I don't know why but my Bezel got harder and harder to turn, it was nearly stuck. Really don't know what is going on here.
I removed the Bezel cleaned it and put it back together, but nothing changed. So I removed the Bezel again and removed the washer and put it back together. The Bezel turns now brilliantly, but because there is no washer the Bezel wobbles now very minimally. Ordered a new washer, maybe the old one was a little bit uneven or something like that. 

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Pretty sure that the "washer" is part of the crystal retaining system so you may want to re-think leaving that out.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Scholes said:


> Here are some gratuitous wrist shots with a couple of the different bezels.


Scholes, those replacement bezels look cool. Especially the vintage coke. Did you buy just the insert or a while bezel with insert? Did you have to remove the bezel to change out the insert? Also, did you receive you replacement from Ginault yet? I'm just curious if for $85 that was only the insert or the whole bezel.


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## Octomix (Sep 12, 2017)

I'm on the verge of picking up the maxi dial version but I'd like to know if any of you gents replaced the red seconds hand with a silver one and if so, how? For me, that'd complete the look


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Its an eta movement. Any eta hands should fit. It'll look just like the watch it's copying. Piece o' cake. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Seems the vast majority of folks are still very pleased with their Ocean Rovers. Great to hear. Almost taking on cult status, lol.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Radar1 said:


> Almost taking on cult status, lol.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I'm a believer......


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Does anyone else have drilled lugs that look like this? Looks like the left hole is not as deep as the right. If I spin the case around, same thing.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

3 months in and the Ginault movement is still running extremely well. The accuracy has been impressive.









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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

About 25 floors up.


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## repeaterbeater (Aug 16, 2017)

That's a lovely shot *59er*


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

repeaterbeater said:


> That's a lovely shot *59er*


Cheers, I never get tired of shooting and posting pics of the OR.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

biscuit141 said:


> Does anyone else have drilled lugs that look like this? Looks like the left hole is not as deep as the right. If I spin the case around, same thing.


yes. Same on mine.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

biscuit141 said:


> Does anyone else have drilled lugs that look like this? Looks like the left hole is not as deep as the right. If I spin the case around, same thing.


Yes I've also checked and it does appear to be the same on mine.

I'll pull the bracelet over the weekend and see if this proves to be a secure fit issue.

If it does it's not a big problem to sort but a drill of just enough over size is needed in order to maintain the nice Solid End Link position and of course care not to scratch the case while drilling.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Always a pleasure to wear


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Almost midnight lume shot. I love that I can read the letters on the dial.









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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

59er said:


> it's not a big problem to sort but a drill of just enough over size is needed in order to maintain the nice Solid End Link position and of course care not to scratch the case while drilling.


That's interesting. I would have thought this quite difficult to do, and certainly not DIY - can you describe the tools and techniques to accomplish this? And how does one then measure and execute such a small differential?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hidden by leaves said:


> That's interesting. I would have thought this quite difficult to do, and certainly not DIY - can you describe the tools and techniques to accomplish this? And how does one then measure and execute such a small differential?


I can't think of any way to drill out a lug hole without having some kind of special tiny right angle drill. I'm thinking maybe something such as you might find in a dental office. Certainly not something I would try at home.

I might try swapping spring bars to make certain they weren't the culprit (such as a small protrusion on the spring bar tip keeping it from fully seating). If the bar swap didn't work, I might try to probe the lug hole with the tip of a pin to ensure there wasn't any material clogging the lug hole preventing the spring bar from fully seating.

If neither the spring bar swap nor the lug hole cleaning work, I would then email Ginault for a warranty claim.

Drilled through lug holes would be a great enhancement for the next generation Ocean Rover. You could then run shoulderless spring bars for the most secure fit possible next to fixed lug bars.

FWIW, my bracelet feels very secure. I wore the watch while surfing yesterday with no concern.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

This sounds like good advice.



Ryeguy said:


> I can't think of any way to drill out a lug hole without having some kind of special tiny right angle drill. I'm thinking maybe something such as you might find in a dental office. Certainly not something I would try at home.
> 
> I might try swapping spring bars to make certain they weren't the culprit (such as a small protrusion on the spring bar tip keeping it from fully seating). If the bar swap didn't work, I might try to probe the lug hole with the tip of a pin to ensure there wasn't any material clogging the lug hole preventing the spring bar from fully seating.
> 
> ...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

A tiny asymmetry in lug hole depth, totally invisible when a bracelet or strap is in place, seems like the type of extremely minor imperfection that has to be expected at this price level (and even well above).

Note that lug drilling is not a perfect process. Here is docvail of NTH on how it's done:



docvail said:


> _Here's one thing I meant to include in the findings, something which I found interesting, and may be interesting here - drilling of the lug holes.
> 
> When the lug holes go all the way through the lugs, they're done with a single drill, passing straight through from one side to the other. Perfectly aligned.
> 
> ...


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/o-rly-hong-kong-says-youre-wrong-1082808.html


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes there is definetly more to drilling the lug holes and it's not something I would attempt myself. I'm glad to hear no one has experienced an issue with a spring bar popping out despite the left lug not being full depth. I purchased one of the early prototype watches with date and that one actually had one hole that was barely drilled. The spring bar would in fact pop out of the hole if I twisted my wrist. I sent the watch back and John sent me a replacement. I contacted John this time after discovering the lug hole issue and he informed my to try and manually push in the spring bar so it seats completely. I have not tried that yet. Honestly, that should not be the solution. He did say they revisited their spec for lug holes after encountering my initial lug hole issue but it sounds like there is still some tweaking to do. 

There is a a guy who drills SKX lug holes and he said he would be willing to take a look at the Ginault to drill all the way through. I believe he is a machinist by trade and knows his stuff. He built a jig to hold the watch properly while drilling and said drilling by hand or without the proper tools and knowledge would be a bad idea.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

hidden by leaves said:


> That's interesting. I would have thought this quite difficult to do, and certainly not DIY - can you describe the tools and techniques to accomplish this? And how does one then measure and execute such a small differential?


Forget this post as I don't think any mdification is needed in regards the springbar lug holes. SEE MY NEXT POST BELOW.

(I'll leave the rest of this post simply for anyone with similar issues on other watches.)

OK, as previously mentioned I have done this a couple of times but only to get a tiny extra bit of clearance either to get the springbar tip better seated and never all the way through.

To do this I used a cobalt drill bit as close to the original size as possible.

I don't recall exactly what size I used but I verniered the springbar tip and then bought a suitable bit, It's tiny maybe a mm but I just cant remember exactly.

As all we are trying to achieve is either a tiny bit of extra with or depth only a tiny bit of drilling is required and as there is already a hole there the resistance is minimal.

The main danger is breaking the bit being as it's sooooo tiny.

Due to the tinyness there is a fair amount of flexibility in the bit so you can actualy put a little pressure from a slight angle and it will allow the bit to flex enough that you can guide it to almost a perfect angle to the existing hole and remember we're only drilling a fraction of material so it doesn't take too many rotations before sufficient material has been removed.

I think I used the flexible shaft of a Dremel in order to have as small a chuck as possible and after suitably masking the back of the case I drilled from the back of the case being hugely careful to keep the rotating chuck away from the case.

The first time I did one I drilled too big a hole (width) and the springbar end was too sloppy and the result was that it allowed the Solid End Link at that end too much play and the SEL could move up and down in the lugs and if pushed up sat past the lug and looked crap.

I have also broken a couple of the tiny bits in the process so now I always buy two or three bits.

Remember that the ones I have done have just been slight oversizing so none of this applies to full drill through as that's a whole other ballgame.

The other thing to consider is that I've been involved in mechanical tinkering of many varieties for 4 decades so I wouldn't advise a non-mechanically minded guy to attempt it on his new OR.

Hope this helps.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

biscuit141 said:


> Does anyone else have drilled lugs that look like this? Looks like the left hole is not as deep as the right. If I spin the case around, same thing.


OK so had a little time this morning so thought I'd investigate if a re-drill was required.

So when pulling the spring bar back I found that the end pin is actually quite long and although it does not completely go into the lug hole to full length it is at least 75% in so I don't believe that is any danger of the springbar being dislodged due to this.

Secondly for those who are running the bracelet the Solid End Link is a very snug fit so even if one side of the springbar is not secured the bracelet is very unlikely to come off as if one side is not secured it then tries to "hinge" but due to the tight fit it then actually wedges itself tight.

On another watch with very similar bracelet/SEL I once found that one of my springbar ends was not secured but did not discover it until months after I had fitted the bracelet, I know that it had been like that as I couldn't get the springbar to seat after much trying and that was in fact the first watch that I drilled the lug hole.

So, IMHO I don't believe that there is a danger if your OR has a slightly short lughole.

Pic on the left indicates springbar pin length (held out by lever) and on right showing the small part that is not fully into the hole.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

59er, thanks for doing this research. I believe you are right as well, I have notice the spring bar pin does seem plenty long on this watch. And as many owners have worn their OR surfing or diving already without issue, I’m sure it will be OK. I do wish Ginault would fix it moving forward as it is a slightly out of spec issue.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

I found this one of the more difficult bracelets to remove. The spring bars were very well seated. It's tight in I would say. It's amazing the scrutiny we give our watches and passing along the OCD to the next man. A lotta hoopla over nothing.


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

The dawn's early lume.









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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I was able to remove the scratch from the bracelet using scotch brite green.
Just went over it straight one way about 50 times. 
Didnt press much. 
Will probably need something more abrasive to make the clasp less sharp. Tried sanding it down with the scotch but not sure it did anything.
Anyhow big scratch is gone.
Also i did the clasp a few times to remove the desk diving marks

Before:










After:


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

Mine arrived just a few days ago... blue bezel, yellow numbers, no date. :-!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I was able to remove the scratch from the bracelet using scotch brite green.
> Just went over it straight one way about 50 times.
> Didnt press much.
> Will probably need something more abrasive to make the clasp less sharp. Tried sanding it down with the scotch but not sure it did anything.
> ...


Yeah the beauty of a brushed finish as that you can fairly easily restore the finish yourself as often as you need to.

With a scotchbrite (or similar) a dremel and a polishing wheel there is no excuse for wearing a daggy watch.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Lume shot of the night. I really have to say the OR is easy to match any occasion. The watch is still going strong after 9 months of use in all conditions.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Fomenko said:


> Mine arrived just a few days ago... blue bezel, yellow numbers, no date. :-!


I just sawt the 181070GSLID on Ginault's website. I am impressed. This color combination is a true winner! 
https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181070gslid/


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

I am just so wowed by this piece.


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)




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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> I am just so wowed by this piece.
> 
> View attachment 12549089


I didn't like the Blue/Gold insert at first but fitted to this no-date dial version it is realy growing on me.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

59er said:


> I didn't like the Blue/Gold insert at first but fitted to this no-date dial version it is realy growing on me.


+1. The blue/gold bezel ties together the sand lume indices perfectly. Wasn't a fan of the black/silver design of the original watch which is why I bought the BGW9. There was just a little too much going on visually. But this new option remedies that doubt in my mind.


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

Couple of pictures more...


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

How many winds do you give the watch to get it going from a dead stop? I don’t want to damage it by overwinding. Is that possible?


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

biscuit141 said:


> How many winds do you give the watch to get it going from a dead stop? I don't want to damage it by overwinding. Is that possible?


From a complete stop to getting the second hand moving takes about 10 turns on my particular example. However; I have operated on ETA2824 equipped models in the past with fewer or even more turns. So I think it might depend on the individual movement.

How many turns did you give before the s hand starts to run from a complete stop?


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Fomenko said:


> Couple of pictures more...


How would you rank the build quality of the three?


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

biscuit141 said:


> How many winds do you give the watch to get it going from a dead stop? I don't want to damage it by overwinding. Is that possible?


You can't over-wind an automatic watch.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

lvt said:


> You can't over-wind an automatic watch.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


In theory that is correct, you can't overwind an automatic movement. Most automatic movements use a slipping clutch device to prevent over-winding. Without this feature, the mainspring would break or malfunction in some way. But I did in fact had bad experiences in the past with overwinding on 2824 movements twice. Not sure if those were just bad luck or the design isn't 100% over-wind proof.

When the clutch is activated, there is a faint click, but on a sturdy diver watch like the Ocean Rover, the case is so thick, you likely would not be able to hear it. However, I still would not go winding it for 100+ turns straight. If I remember it correctly a full wind for 2824 is about 30 plus turns.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mf1tym said:


> In theory that is correct, you can't overwind an automatic movement. Most automatic movements use a slipping clutch device to prevent over-winding. Without this feature, the mainspring would break or malfunction in some way. But I did in fact had bad experiences in the past with overwinding on 2824 movements twice. Not sure if those were just bad luck or the design isn't 100% over-wind proof.
> 
> When the clutch is activated, there is a faint click, but on a sturdy diver watch like the Ocean Rover, the case is so thick, you likely would not be able to hear it. However, I still would not go winding it for 100+ turns straight. If I remember it correctly a full wind for 2824 is about 30 plus turns.


I think it was an isolated case, the slipping clutch has been there for decades so no need to prove its efficacy.

Moreover, there is a bigger danger of damaging the automatic winding mechanism's reversing wheels than damaging the mainspring when you wind an automatic watch manually (at least with the traditional ETA design).

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

lvt said:


> I think it was an isolated case, the slipping clutch has been there for decades so no need to prove its efficacy.
> 
> Moreover, there is a bigger danger of damaging the automatic winding mechanism's reversing wheels than damaging the mainspring when you wind an automatic watch manually (at least with the traditional ETA design).
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


Maybe, but since it happened twice to two different Caliber 5 (eta 2824 and a SW200) movements on two different brands of watches I began to wonder if that slip clutch design is really as bulletproof as they claim it to be.

Either way, these are mechanical things, and constant friction does cause wear and tear that is a fact. So I'd say the design, for the most part, does work, and is there to prevent you from over-winding. But still, don't go winding it 100 turns straight just for fun.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> In theory that is correct, you can't overwind an automatic movement. Most automatic movements use a slipping clutch device to prevent over-winding. Without this feature, the mainspring would break or malfunction in some way. But I did in fact had bad experiences in the past with overwinding on 2824 movements twice. Not sure if those were just bad luck or the design isn't 100% over-wind proof.
> 
> When the clutch is activated, there is a faint click, but on a sturdy diver watch like the Ocean Rover, the case is so thick, you likely would not be able to hear it. However, I still would not go winding it for 100+ turns straight. If I remember it correctly a full wind for 2824 is about 30 plus turns.


A full wind of an ETA 2824-2 from unwound requires only* 22,5 turns *of the crown then the tiny click-click of the clutch slipping can be heard.

I wonder about the extend of the purported frailty of the ETA hand winding system. I suspect it might be more related to rough handling / excessive winding of the crown rather than a design weakness.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

kelt said:


> A full wind of an ETA 2824-2 from unwound requires only* 22,5 turns *of the crown then the tiny click-click of the clutch slipping can be heard.
> 
> I wonder about the extend of the purported frailty of the ETA hand winding system. I suspect it might be more related to rough handling / excessive winding of the crown rather than a design weakness.


This is true. I read many horror stories on the 2824 design when doing too much manual winding.

From the readings, I gathered the 2824 manual winding design tend to wear out fast if you hand wind them a lot.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

kelt said:


> A full wind of an ETA 2824-2 from unwound requires only* 22,5 turns *of the crown then the tiny click-click of the clutch slipping can be heard.
> 
> I wonder about the extend of the purported frailty of the ETA hand winding system. I suspect it might be more related to rough handling / excessive winding of the crown rather than a design weakness.


The hand winding capability is like a backup, like the tiny backup wheel on most of sedans. It's not designed to be used frequently. Don't use it unless you really have to.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

lvt said:


> The hand winding capability is like a backup, like the tiny backup wheel on most of sedans. It's not designed to be used frequently. Don't use it unless you really have to.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


This is a good point to be addressed. I hope our previous conversation regarding the overwinding protection doesn't translate to always wind your caliber 5 movements.

Cal 5 movements are notorious when it comes to its weak manual winding durability.

Personally I would just wind them as needed when worn. I know some people would wind their watches daily even when not wearing it. I think winding them daily like that is putting unneeded wear and stress on the winding mechanism and crown. At a minimum, the stem in the crown is getting more long-term stress than they are designed for.

I have been wearing my Rover daily for about 10-12 hours a day. Besides the initial full manual winding I did, I haven't needed to manually power the watch for the past 8 months. (this doesn't include the time I took the watch to my local guy to adjust the timing) An auto winder is also a good option if you don't wear the watches daily. Let the auto winding keep the watch wound instead of the manual winding.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks for all the information everyone. I should have been a little more specific, I was referring to winding the watch for the first time after having it set in my watch box for a while and it being dead. Like a lot of us, I rotate my watches so I usually hand wind to get them going. I’m not sure if I should just turn them enough manually to get the movement started, or wind them up close to full capacity and then let Kinetic motion take over. I have been giving my OR 20-30 turns when I first get it out of the box to wear it to get it fully wound, then once on the wrist I don’t touch it again. I don’t hand wind it daily or anything like that. Im coming from Seiko 7S26 movements where you just shake to get them started. I also have a couple 6R15 movements now that I have read take a lot of winding to get them charged fully sing the have a 50+ hour power reserve, so I typically give them 40 turns, I hope that is not too much but I have read others do that too.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If you regularly handwind a 2824, sooner or later you will blow the reverser gear. It is a known problem with the 2824, and ginault--which claims a lot--does not claim to have obviated that problem. 

Instead of winding with crown, get the rotor going by shaking gently for awhile. Should start right up and give good service that way. 


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> How would you rank the build quality of the three?


I'd also be interested in this comparison.

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

biscuit141 said:


> Thanks for all the information everyone. I should have been a little more specific, I was referring to winding the watch for the first time after having it set in my watch box for a while and it being dead. Like a lot of us, I rotate my watches so I usually hand wind to get them going. I'm not sure if I should just turn them enough manually to get the movement started, or wind them up close to full capacity and then let Kinetic motion take over. I have been giving my OR 20-30 turns when I first get it out of the box to wear it to get it fully wound, then once on the wrist I don't touch it again. I don't hand wind it daily or anything like that. Im coming from Seiko 7S26 movements where you just shake to get them started. I also have a couple 6R15 movements now that I have read take a lot of winding to get them charged fully sing the have a 50+ hour power reserve, so I typically give them 40 turns, I hope that is not too much but I have read others do that too.


I would err on the side of caution. Wind a few times to get the movement running and then wear and let the rotor do the rest. The power reserve seems pretty consistent in that I can miss a days time on the wrist and find the watch running the following morning indicating the auto winding mechanism is keep the spring at full tension.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

+


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> How would you rank the build quality of the three?


I'm planning to make a thread comparing these three, and maybe some other piece.
The Tudor is the best, with a superb bracelet and buckle mechanism, followed very, very close by the Ginault. Difficult to justify the big price difference, to be honest. 
The Aramar is far behind them, but I like it and is part of my collection.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> If you regularly handwind a 2824, sooner or later you will blow the reverser gear. It is a known problem with the 2824, and ginault--which claims a lot--does not claim to have obviated that problem.
> 
> Instead of winding with crown, get the rotor going by shaking gently for awhile. Should start right up and give good service that way.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL this is funny.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't huh. No matter what they say or don't say will always have these bitter melon comments


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> I would err on the side of caution. Wind a few times to get the movement running and then wear and let the rotor do the rest. The power reserve seems pretty consistent in that I can miss a days time on the wrist and find the watch running the following morning indicating the auto winding mechanism is keep the spring at full tension.


There are two schools of thoughts regarding these Cal 5 movements.

1. Like Porche pointed out, from a complete stop you can manual wind it a few turns, 10-12 maybe, to get it started and wear it on your wrist for 10-15 hours to let the auto winding do the rest to power up the watch. The downside of this is that these movements tend to run faster when the power reserve is lower. So before you can fully power up the movement to full power through kinetic energy wearing it on your wrist, your watch may very likely be running faster.

2. This is what I do, I would give the watch a full manual wind (from a complete stop) and wear it all day. And when I don't, I leave it on a watch winder. This will ensure the movement is constantly running on a healthy power reserve. This also lessens the chances to use the crown and putting it under duress.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Fomenko said:


> I'm planning to make a thread comparing these three, and maybe some other piece.
> The Tudor is the best, with a superb bracelet and buckle mechanism, followed very, very close by the Ginault. Difficult to justify the big price difference, to be honest.
> The Aramar is far behind them, but I like it and is part of my collection.


Looking forward to it. Please do provide us with a link here when you have done that.


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> Looking forward to it. Please do provide us with a link here when you have done that.


Will certainly do... I'm taking my time because it's really difficult to take pictures of several watches together! TBH even of one by itself is not an easy task...


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Fomenko said:


> Will certainly do... I'm taking my time because it's really difficult to take pictures of several watches together! TBH even of one by itself is not an easy task...


Oh yes, I completely understand. I myself have had a hard time taking photos that can barely do justice to the OR. When I look at the pictures I took of the OR, I wouldn't wanna buy it. But when you hold this watch in steel, words cannot describe it.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Oh yes, I completely understand. I myself have had a hard time taking photos that can barely do justice to the OR. When I look at the pictures I took of the OR, I wouldn't wanna buy it. But when you hold this watch in steel, words cannot describe it.


My sentiments too. I think the glossy high reflectivity of the enamel dial doesn't help nor the effect artificial light has on the crystal. I think the best pictures which are closest to the true look of the watch have been taken outdoors in natural light. Looks like a different watch.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Enjoying this watch a lot. The stainless steel bracelet is awesome! but it also wears well on leather


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

G4_Chrono said:


> Enjoying this watch a lot. The stainless steel bracelet is awesome! but it also wears well on leather
> 
> View attachment 12561491


Looks amazing!

Is that some sort of O-ring gasket that you left out of the OR?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Looks amazing!
> 
> Is that some sort of O-ring gasket that you left out of the OR?


Probably the gasket for the crystal from the bare case above the Ginault. You can see a portion of the crystal at the bottom of the photo.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> LOL this is funny.
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't huh. No matter what they say or don't say will always have these bitter melon comments


WOW received a PM from a pretty angry member for my comment regarding no matter what Ginault does or does not do/say the detractors will just never be happy. Pretty nasty stuff was written.

=(


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> WOW received a PM from a pretty angry member for my comment regarding no matter what Ginault does or does not do/say the detractors will just never be happy. Pretty nasty stuff was written.
> 
> =(


Don't let it get to you. The OR is a very polarizing piece. What gets me is all the pontification from people who have never even seen, let alone handled one in real life.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> WOW received a PM from a pretty angry member for my comment regarding no matter what Ginault does or does not do/say the detractors will just never be happy. Pretty nasty stuff was written.
> 
> =(


Yep I had a very nasty and sarcastic response in this thread when I first joined and the Admin must have also thought it was an inappropriate response as they deleted the post and I almost stopped coming to WUS because of a few negative members like that but I realized that some people have little to do with their lives except to try to make others unhappy but also realized that they are the minority.

Some people just take themselves waaaaay too serious.

Forget them and keep enjoying your watches and stay active here on the forum.

Now I'll probably get a PM or rebuttal post from some angry member


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

59er said:


> Yep I had a very nasty and sarcastic response in this thread when I first joined and the Admin must have also thought it was an inappropriate response as they deleted the post and I almost stopped coming to WUS because of a few negative members like that but I realized that some people have little to do with their lives except to try to make others unhappy but also realized that they are the minority.
> 
> Some people just take themselves waaaaay too serious.
> 
> ...


I agree the OR generated quite extreme views from members. I have no problem with members having different views and openly discuss it civilly or sarcastically, whatever is fine. But the cussing and name calling via PM is rather base and uncalled for.

Ginault's Ocean Rover really shook the market in this watch category by using these premium quality parts that were unseen before on other brands. The quality of the Ocean Rover is the very reason why they rose to the top of the Sub homage scene so quickly. I admit the pricing is a bit high but imho it is really worth the asking price let along the discount they are offering now. This to me is something that should be celebrated instead of berated. To any WIS what Ginault is doing and offering is seriously upping the game and we are the ones that benefit from this true passion-driven venture of theirs. Just ask yourself how many micro brands out there are owned and operated by highly skilled watchmakers and machinists instead of business and marketing background people? When buying an automatic watch in the 1k range chances are the parts are mass produced in China with loose tolerances and assembled by technicians instead of watchmakers, and I bet a huge chunck of the money spent also went towards fueling the brand's marketing and ads. But with the Ocean Rover you are really getting top-notch quality parts, hand build by true watchmakers and I would assume very little of that money we spend went towards marketing and ads. It's like spending 1K but getting a watch that is usually situated in the 3-4K range.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

...


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I have received my Ginault Ocean Rover today. Pretty impressed so far.

One question: is it normal that not all screws of the bracelet have a collar in the middle of it? The screws seem all tight and secured. To be on the safe side I also secured them with Locite. 

I am just curious why some links have a collar and some don't...

EDIT: it has been clarified: some collars are more tightly in the links and some are not. Just the looser ones, of course, came out by alone while sizing.


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

I've been following this thread since the beginning......even through the mean times. It's nice to see the strong following these watches have developed. Lately mine hasn't been getting the wrist time it deserves become worried that I'll beat it up. I've almost been feeling like it might be too nice for daily wear. Anyone else feel this way about their OR? 

I have a pretty meager collection and this one is the pinnacle right now. Feel pretty happy that I still dig it as much as I did the day it arrived. I guess that's what you hope for. No remorse here!!!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

My OR is my nicest watch; I wear it often at my office job, and at home, but not yet in "beater" situations; I have other watches for that! 

I don't worry about dings and scratches from this sort of use. Those are to be expected over time.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Daily wear here, even though I have 'better' and much more expensive pieces to choose from. Def not a beater and I won't wear it working on the car or doing the yard work. As you say its too nice for that.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

My OR is also the pinical of my small collection and is pretty much a daily wearer except when at work as it would get beaten up which I don't want to happen.

It is showing signs of wear but not abuse.

Holding back on watch purchases at the moment but another Ginault will likely be my next.

An old shot but I hate posting without a pic


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

Nice to see that I'm not the only one that has a small collection with the Ginault at the top. We all took a chance on this one and it hasn't really disappointed many. 

I agree with you 59er, I'm sort of holding out on any big acquisitions until I see what Ginault does next. I'm hoping for some sort of Explorer.....anyone heard any rumors?? Whatever it is I'm sure it will be well done.

Guess this one should be used and not abused. Maybe the G-Shock stays home today and the Rover comes out to play.


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## DevD (Dec 19, 2016)

GermanyMatt said:


> So I now have in my possession, three different Ginault models:
> 1. 181070LSILN (BGW9 lume; not even on their website yet)
> 2. 181270GSLID (Blue bezel with Date - They added a cyclops at no additional charge)
> 3. 181070GSLN (no date; sand markers)
> ...


Hi @GermanyMatt, very nice and concise review. I am particularly interested in your comment on liking gold sand lume better than bgw9.
I am contemplating buying one and confused between the two. Feel sand lume may not look great with white marker bezel. But at the same time feel Bgw9 one to be a bit boring.

Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

DevD said:


> Hi @GermanyMatt, very nice and concise review. I am particularly interested in your comment on liking gold sand lume better than bgw9.
> I am contemplating buying one and confused between the two. Feel sand lume may not look great with white marker bezel. But at the same time feel Bgw9 one to be a bit boring.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H990 using Tapatalk


Why not buy the blue bezel ones? It has gold numeral on bezel

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

I consider my new Oris Aquis Blue Gradient to be my nicest dive watch and it gets fully pampered. But the OR isn't all that far off in build quality and I don't beat on it either.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

How is the bezel action on the Oris?


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## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

So it's time to add my experience to this thread.

I'll start with how I got here. I've been into watches for the past 27 or so years. Primarily into vintage chronographs.
Past watches I've had include:

Omega Flightmaster cal. 910
Glycine "Heuer" GMT Valjoux 724
Seiko 6138-0040 Bullhead Chrono.
Seiko Sports 100 7A28-7040 (1st quartz chrono)

Current small collection:

1991 Sinn 156 (My all-time favorite. It is "perfect" to me. I love the 5100 movement & the timer bezel)
Early 70's Seiko 6138 Yachtsman 
Late 60's Tissot Seastar T12 chrono.

You could safely say I like chronographs, and tool/functional watches- lol.
I've always liked and appreciated Rolex, and the Submariner in particular- a grail for me would be an early 70's Rolex 1680 red sub (love that tall crystal!)
Just never really thought about one, or pursued it. Long story short- I tried on a sub and loved the size (39-40mm really is perfect to me) and design of it, and got me thinking about one. 
Looked at Steinhart and Mk II watches, but nothing really jumped out at me. Saw the Ginault and was intrigued. Read this entire thread and was _really _intrigued, lol! I wanted one.

The Ocean Rover 181070GSLN is actually the first new watch I've ever bought! b-)
The previous reviews will fill in all the technical details, and my experience mirrors them as well. The watch is stunningly beautiful! Very few pictures do it justice, you need to see it to believe it.
My particular watch is flawless. Was very easy to size the band. The clasp, bezel, winding, screwing down the crown, etc...all worked perfectly. Timing so far seems great, but I've only just received it. Nothing leads me to believe it will be anything but fine.

My favorite part about the watch is the Gold Sand Lume, the red second hand, and domed crystal. I like the color/contrast and a tip-of-the-hat in the vintage direction, without feeling "retro."
Damn- this thing is a fine watch, I love it! Not going to be leaving my wrist for quite a while I'd imagine. 
If you are even thinking a little bit about getting one- do it. It's really that good.

Please forgive the mobile phone pics:


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Trio of lume.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

deoreo said:


> So it's time to add my experience to this thread.
> 
> I'll start with how I got here. I've been into watches for the past 27 or so years. Primarily into vintage chronographs.
> Past watches I've had include:
> ...


Nothing wrong with those phone shots, your OR looks great.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Accuracy is improving. My OR has only lost 2 secs in the last 16 days. Daily wear except Sun. Incredible performance.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I was a serious flipper, guess did not find what I was looking for and went through 30+ watches over 2 years. Bought OR no date 5 months ago. Now I have it and the Hamilton Khaki King. All my watches were between 200-900$. I stopped buying for now. Ginault is a perfect watch for me. I agree that the fact that it is glossy and shinny makes it tough to call it a beater but I wear this thing everywhere, has not skipped a beat. Still would prefer another clasp over glidelock, nothing wrong with it, just to thick for me


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

Lovely crown it has...


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## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

Just a small update on timing accuracy.

The supplied documentation said the watch was designed for 38 hrs of power reserve, and tested to 44 hrs.
I confirm that. From a full manual wind, then stationary, face up I got just over 44 hrs.

Starting with a full manual wind early Monday morning. Then worn at work (desk job) and set on the dresser face up for the evening (after 12 hrs of wearing)...and repeat...only winding from wearing.

So far, I'm seeing a very consistent -1 sec. per day. I'd say that's pretty good. Also close to, or better than the timing notes I received with the watch. Nice.

Fun side note:
As I've really only had vintage watches, my experience with lume is having it glow for maybe a few minutes after being charged with a very bright light.
New lume is very different- lol!
Catching the dial glow brightly in a shadow is new to me, as is waking up at 5:30am in the dark, and clearly seeing the watch glow(after 7 hrs. in the dark) on the dresser- very cool!!

I really love this watch!


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

I just placed my order for an Ocean stover oct 18. John was responding promptly before I placed it. After I did, no response for 2 days. Even asked for an update since there’s no tracking update. Now when I check their website, nothing is coming up and just giving an error stating the page is non existent. Anyone have any experience with this? They did charge my card and all already though so hopefully everything is good.


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Tried sending an email again his morning. But received a mail failure delivery response. Mail is undeliverable because address does not exist. Yikes.


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

djps3577 said:


> I just placed my order for an Ocean stover oct 18. John was responding promptly before I placed it. After I did, no response for 2 days. Even asked for an update since there's no tracking update. Now when I check their website, nothing is coming up and just giving an error stating the page is non existent. Anyone have any experience with this? They did charge my card and all already though so hopefully everything is good.


I got my tracking number after 1 week

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## Andrewjj (Sep 4, 2017)

djps3577 said:


> Tried sending an email again his morning. But received a mail failure delivery response. Mail is undeliverable because address does not exist. Yikes.


Oh no.

I was about to pull the trigger and purchase another and sent John an email only to find it bounce back!

Interesting...


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Hopefully I get it too. Even if it’s a week or two. It’s just that their website is non existent right now and their customer service email is undeliverable. Just a little worried about that.


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Right? Glad to know I’m not losing my mind here haha just wanted to ask if this has happened before already? Hopefully they won’t run away with my money haha


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Hopefully they just move to a new better website

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

marcell said:


> Hopefully they just move to a new better website
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Hopefully. Was really looking forward to getting this watch. Especially that John mentioned it would go out yesterday. If anyone can chime in if this happened before or if anyone knows what happened to them I'd greatly appreciate it.


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Marcell did you get your watch in already?


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

djps3577 said:


> Marcell did you get your watch in already?


I bought in july, i just speak my experience that i received my tracking number a week after my payment. Dont know if that helps though..

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

marcell said:


> I bought in july, i just speak my experience that i received my tracking number a week after my payment. Dont know if that helps though..
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it. How do you like the Watch so far?


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

Placed an order on 05 Oct. Have asked a few times what's happening and John has always got back. Something to do with importing into the EU was given as the reason (I'm in the UK). No tracking number yet, but last message from John 2 days ago said it should arrive by 23 Oct. I'll report back after that.

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


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## roccoq123 (Mar 27, 2008)

Are these Ginault watches really as good as they seem? I have read several forums and you don’t see too many bad reviews. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

djps3577 said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience. I appreciate it. How do you like the Watch so far?


All i can say is i cant find any downside or disapointing aspect from this watch. The finishing is beautiful, great precision, tight tolerance machining and very neatly done.

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

roccoq123 said:


> Are these Ginault watches really as good as they seem? I have read several forums and you don't see too many bad reviews.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes!

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Swayndo right. He always responded fast but stopped responding after placing my order. No tracking yet as well. But got receipt confirmation that my order was placed. Ginault.com website seems to be non existent right now as well. Email address not working too.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Maybe the server they use is having problems. Give it a few business days.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

djps3577 said:


> I just placed my order for an Ocean stover oct 18. John was responding promptly before I placed it. After I did, no response for 2 days. Even asked for an update since there's no tracking update. Now when I check their website, nothing is coming up and just giving an error stating the page is non existent. Anyone have any experience with this? They did charge my card and all already though so hopefully everything is good.


Page loads fine for me.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

It was down 30 mins ago when I tried but I guess the problem was fixed. Good to know......


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

marcell said:


> All i can say is i cant find any downside or disapointing aspect from this watch. The finishing is beautiful, great precision, tight tolerance machining and very neatly done.
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Spot on. The tight tolerance in the spec really tells a lot if you know your stuff regarding the way metal parts are fashioned and the industry. These OR parts that your hands can touch really are not from your run of the mill, mass produced china parts that are used on most micro brands even many swiss made brands. I am in the "softline" industry. An analogy i would use is a suit from say Zara, carries the trendy and fashionable looks. The quality matches the selling price (but definately room for improvement) this suit would be the equivilent of a Steinhart ect. As for the Ocean Rover Its kind of like a bestspoke tailormade suit using Zegna quality fabric, cut and sewn by a master tailor. You dont pay Zeggna or other Italian name brand prices but you definately still get the looks and quality. This sector of suits have existed for a long time in the apperal industry but before Ginault came along there wasnt really anything like this in the Sub homeage category. If this website downage means Ginault is leaving the game that would be a truly sad news for all WIS that are into sub homages.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

the website works fine for me.

It seems like they updated the webpage with new products such as 181070lsiln (black dial BGW9 lume)?!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

It's not BGW9, it's "Glowing Smurfs" lume!

Looks great. I might need a second no-date OR ...


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## whoa (May 5, 2013)

When are they gonna make a snowflake?? 

Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

djps3577 said:


> Swayndo right. He always responded fast but stopped responding after placing my order. No tracking yet as well. But got receipt confirmation that my order was placed. Ginault.com website seems to be non existent right now as well. Email address not working too.


If you got the confirmation, all is well and clear. I got my tracking number a few days after my payment, and the only issue was about the postman coming too late to my office and going back to the Post Office with my watch. I got it after a week and three delivery attempts...


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

whoa said:


> When are they gonna make a snowflake??
> 
> Sendt fra min SM-G920F med Tapatalk


My personal vote is for a properly done Steve McQueen Explorer II homage.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Belloc said:


> My personal vote is for a properly done Steve McQueen Explorer II homage.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, please. I'll take one without the cyclops


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

I really wish the crystal had inner AR. It most lighting it reflects but in some at light and certain angles the crystal disappears and shows off the beauty of the dial and hands.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Did you get a reply? 

I just placed an order on another watch for my dad. The website is working and I got a confirmation email after order placement.


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## jupiterfang (Mar 27, 2010)

The whole watch looks very great except that 4-5 lines of writing.....


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

Swayndo said:


> Placed an order on 05 Oct. Have asked a few times what's happening and John has always got back. Something to do with importing into the EU was given as the reason (I'm in the UK). No tracking number yet, but last message from John 2 days ago said it should arrive by 23 Oct. I'll report back after that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


It didn't arrive by 23 Oct ... or 24 Oct for that matter. Getting a bit pissed off waiting TBH.

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

It's here ... and it's beautiful.










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## TRUE LIBERTY (Apr 13, 2013)

Question? Have they done any refinements or improvements on the Ocean Rover since it came out? Just to many pages of bickering to read through to find out.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

No recent bickering so just go back 10 pages or so and look at the Ginault website and you'll have it all.


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## OCDRob (Apr 18, 2016)

Just received my third Ginault yesterday. This time I went with the model with the smurf lume. One thing I noticed about this new one is the bezel is a little easier to turn. Will post pics later today.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

The caseback is different now compared to the initial models. 
It has a nice circle engraving on the polished part


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I am glad this thread exists and that cooler heads have prevailed.

I just purchased a pre owned 180260 GSLN from a forum member. I haven't been this excited to receive a watch in a very long time perhaps since the Seiko MM300 I received a couple of years ago. For me, it isn't about the watch being a homage to a Rolex. I have never intended on purchasing a Rolex. And, homage? Even Rolex, through Tudor, is doing homages of its previously released watches. Heck, reissues are actually homages; so, I don't care about that,,,everyone is doing it to some extent. For me, acquiring a Ginault is about fantastic engineering and craftsmanship and, to some extent, a portion (I don't care how much) of the watch being produced/assembled in the US. I like that and am looking forward to receiving this watch. It will be the smallest dive watch I have ever owned.


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

I've been enjoying wearing mine since it arrived. The bracelet is very comfortable and it's all very balanced and solid. Unfortunately the date doesn't change automatically on mine. Changes fine with the quick change and when you wind the hands around. There isn't anything I'm missing is there?

I've emailed Ginault and will update here with what happens.

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Swayndo said:


> I've been enjoying wearing mine since it arrived. The bracelet is very comfortable and it's all very balanced and solid. Unfortunately the date doesn't change automatically on mine. Changes fine with the quick change and when you wind the hands around. There isn't anything I'm missing is there?
> 
> I've emailed Ginault and will update here with what happens.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


How long did you own it prior to the date malfunction?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

rosborn said:


> How long did you own it prior to the date malfunction?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


It's not changed automatically since I got it on Thursday. I've manually advanced it since then but today I waited until after noon today to see if it was out of sync. John from Ginault got back to me earlier and I'm going to leave it alone for 2 full cycles and see what happens.

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Swayndo said:


> It's not changed automatically since I got it on Thursday. I've manually advanced it since then but today I waited until after noon today to see if it was out of sync. John from Ginault got back to me earlier and I'm going to leave it alone for 2 full cycles and see what happens.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


That makes sense. A little shock may have occurred while in shipment. Dang, I hate "trusting" these companies to safely transport and deliver sensitive items. Who knows how well it was taken care of at its various layovers I'm hoping for the best!


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Never heard about date mechanism being damaged by transport.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Swayndo said:


> I've been enjoying wearing mine since it arrived. The bracelet is very comfortable and it's all very balanced and solid. Unfortunately the date doesn't change automatically on mine. Changes fine with the quick change and when you wind the hands around. There isn't anything I'm missing is there?
> 
> I've emailed Ginault and will update here with what happens.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


If you can manually advance it by turning the hour/minute hands pass 12 then it should change on its own after 24 hours. Remember the date doesn't change every 12 hours but 24 hours. There is no clear indication on the watch if you are in the am or pm section of the 12 hour. If you are in the AM section of the 12-hour zone the date won't switch when approaching 12 or pass 12. You will have to let it run another 12 hours until you see this change.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm back to the OR today after a week of other watches:

View attachment 12617161


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Avo said:


> I'm back to the OR today after a week of other watches:
> 
> View attachment 12617161
> [/
> ...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

My review from January is here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...rover-181070gsln-3860842-72.html#post37664242

Nine months later, I still love the watch. It currently runs at about +4s/day on wrist. If I lost it and needed to pay MSRP to replace it, I would.

(And I'm not sure why the pic I just posted doesn't show in the post itself ...)


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Avo said:


> My review from January is here:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...rover-181070gsln-3860842-72.html#post37664242
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response and great review.

I have a pre-owned date, without cyclops, coming and I am excited. Probably the most excited I have been about receiving a watch in a long while. It will be the smallest diameter watch I have owned in a very long time - probably 20/25 years. But I like that it mimics the Submariner in that regard. Who knows? This watch may make me a 39/40MM guy from now on. Anyway, that you still love your Ginault is very encouraging.

Thanks again!


----------



## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

The date thing seems to have been me, not the watch. Last night I set the date with the quick adjust to the day before then advanced the hands to bring it up to date and advanced it into the PM. This morning it has changed to the correct date.

I'm going to leave it alone now 

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


----------



## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

Oh and another thing, John said not to use quick change between 6pm and midnight as it can damage the date change gearbox. I've heard that before for some auto movements but wasn't aware of any warning for this. Good to know. 

Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk


----------



## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Trying new strap for the ginault









Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Accuracy update for my OR. I have had the watch for 4 months now and it's still rock solid. I'm continuing to be very impressed.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Swayndo said:


> Oh and another thing, John said not to use quick change between 6pm and midnight as it can damage the date change gearbox. I've heard that before for some auto movements but wasn't aware of any warning for this. Good to know.
> 
> Sent from my F5121 using Tapatalk


You shouldn't change date between 9pm and 3 am in general...

Instagram @ the_watchier


----------



## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Mine is 24 secs fast a day. Don’t know what happened.


----------



## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

Mine is 24 secs fast a day. Don’t know what happened.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

marcell said:


> Trying new strap for the ginault
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great! Where dis you buy it from?

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

djps3577 said:


> Mine is 24 secs fast a day. Don't know what happened.


Magnetized? :-O

Best regards,


----------



## marcell (May 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Looks great! Where dis you buy it from?
> 
> Best regards,


Thanks, its custom strap from ig @dnnyrchn , great quality for very reasonable price

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I just joined the club with a pre-owned OR. How does it look on my wrist?









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## marcell (May 6, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I just joined the club with a pre-owned OR. How does it look on my wrist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It looks great!

Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## djps3577 (Oct 21, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Magnetized? :-O
> 
> Best regards,


Thats what I thought. I demagnetized it. Still runs fast after demagnetizing. Checked if the watch was magnetized too using lepsi app but watch does not seem to be magnetized at all. So I really have no idea as to what's wrong with the watch. It was accurate for the first few days. Bummer..


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> I just joined the club with a pre-owned OR. How does it look on my wrist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks awesome. The size is ok too. I know you were concerned.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> Looks awesome. The size is ok too. I know you were concerned.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Thanks. I was concerned. Actually, I was fully expecting to dislike the size/wrist ratio and was expecting to list it in the sales forum right away. But...I think I've found a new watch diameter for me. 40MM looks way more proportional on my 7" wrist than 43/44MM does. Thank you for all of your help!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

marcell said:


> Thanks, its custom strap from ig @dnnyrchn , great quality for very reasonable price
> 
> Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the info!

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I just joined the club with a pre-owned OR. How does it look on my wrist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect size, IMO. Enjoy!

Best regards,


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> Thanks. I was concerned. Actually, I was fully expecting to dislike the size/wrist ratio and was expecting to list it in the sales forum right away. But...I think I've found a new watch diameter for me. 40MM looks way more proportional on my 7" wrist than 43/44MM does. Thank you for all of your help!


Always happy to enable! It's a great watch that has taken on something of a cult status now. Justifiably so.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

BTW, has anyone been able to remove the half-link of the 12' side? I have tried several times (even removing the metal sleeve from the full link's hole) but finally had to leave it...

Best regards,


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

rosborn said:


> I just joined the club with a pre-owned OR. How does it look on my wrist?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Politically correct.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm in a very boring day long CE class today and just went down the ginault rabbit hole. If I didn't already have a sub homage I think I would have ordered one. 

The hands and markers are really really impressive. But the thing that really jumped out at me is the bracelet end links. They got the sharp edges on the raised center correct. So many homages have rounded edges there; many of those bracelets also appear to be a different color steel than the cases (or the brushing doesn't match). Red seconds hand is brilliant.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

92gli said:


> I'm in a very boring day long CE class today and just went down the ginault rabbit hole. If I didn't already have a sub homage I think I would have ordered one.
> 
> The hands and markers are really really impressive. But the thing that really jumped out at me is the bracelet end links. They got the sharp edges on the raised center correct. So many homages have rounded edges there; many of those bracelets also appear to be a different color steel than the cases (or the brushing doesn't match). Red seconds hand is brilliant.


The Ocean Rover really is a fine watch. I was VERY skeptical bout it prior to owning one. I had two concerns: it would be too small for my wrist (the smallest diameter watch I had owned prior to this was 43MM) and, 2. there was no way the finishing and engineering could be *that* good. I was wrong on both counts. I have not taken this watch since it arrive, except to shower. Some people have compared it to the Oris Aquis because they kinda/sorta fall in the same price range. I would agree that the value for price (especially at the discounted price) is very similar for both watches. They are different for sure but I would place them at equal quality.

The thing, though, that pushed me over the top and pushed the Ocean Rover ahead of the Aquis, in my mind, is the Ginault 7275 movement. Sure, it's a clone of the ETA 2824 but Ginault has decided to manufacture its own movements, not purchase one from Sellita and slap it in a case they designed. Complaints in other threads that Ginault purchases its springs from China made me look into the manufacturing processes of earlier American watchmakers. Our early American, early 20th century, watchmaker also outsourced movement parts from overseas, while making most of the movement here. The difference being that they purchased their springs or other parts from Great Britain where as now those difficult to manufacture parts are sourced from China.

People have also groused that Ginault's Ocean Rover is not their design. The watchmakers in early 20th century America were hardly innovators of watch design. In fact, like Ginault, they borrowed or copied designs from European watchmakers. So, I find Ginault very much in keeping with watchmaking history in the United States and I am very comfortable with that. I like that my watch was, like watches made here in the 1920s and 30s, for the most part made right here. I am very excited that watchmaking may grace our shores once again. I have nothing against micros who purchase the parts and assemble the watches here but it isn't the same thing.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Loving mine!










Best regards,


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Loving mine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats! Looks great on your wrist!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)




----------



## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Good looking Watch!


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Out at the job site with me today...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Out at the job site with me today...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Impressive, uh? 

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Congrats! Looks great on your wrist!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks. Never had a diver and 40 mm watch. Have been wearing a 36 mm foe the last 15 years as my only watch.

I am a bit OCD and seeing a very tiny spot on a side of the hour hand. I have sent an e-mail to Jon about buying a spare hand to replace it.

Best regards,


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks. Never had a diver and 40 mm watch. Have been wearing a 36 mm foe the last 15 years as my only watch.
> 
> I am a bit OCD and seeing a very tiny spot on a side of the hour hand. I have sent an e-mail to Jon about buying a spare hand to replace it.
> 
> Best regards,


I'm coming at the Ocean Rover from the opposite direction. I've been wearing 43/44MM watches for as long as I can remember. I like this 40MM size.

Regarding OCD and spots on hands...i am inclined toward OCD on many levels but that would be just too small for me to notice without it being in a photograph.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Loving mine!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice lume shot!

I also have a BGW9 version, from the first batch of 8. Is your lume always blue or sometimes greenish blue?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> Nice lume shot!
> 
> I also have a BGW9 version, from the first batch of 8. Is your lume always blue or sometimes greenish blue?


Sometimes greenish. IMO, it depends on which light the lume has received, if this makes any sense.

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I'm coming at the Ocean Rover from the opposite direction. I've been wearing 43/44MM watches for as long as I can remember. I like this 40MM size.
> 
> Regarding OCD and spots on hands...i am inclined toward OCD on many levels but that would be just too small for me to notice without it being in a photograph.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The problem is, that once you have seen it, you always see it. :-(

Best regards,


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Sometimes greenish. IMO, it depends on which light the lume has received, if this makes any sense.
> 
> Best regards,


it does make sense, what I thought too. A day of exposure to natural light and its ice blue. Otherwise it's more greenish.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> The problem is, that once you have seen it, you always see it. :-(
> 
> Best regards,


Oh...I know.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Guys, I’m looking for some feedback on clasp quality please . .

Mine has gone a bit sloppy. Both the safety clasp and the main release mechanism have a ‘soft’ action. They work, but not with the ‘clunk, click or clack’ that I might have expected. It takes no effort at all to release, its eager to lift out and the part that pivots under tension doesn’t need to do so to release. 

I have other, far, far cheaper, glidelock and easy link style clasps that are more positive in their action. 

I expected more from the feel to this clasp - largely to the talk that in the production of the ocean rover, tree was a pursuit of quality and ‘feel’ to emulate the original it homages. But also due to the price point. 

I ask here, not to throw any criticisms but to learn from your broader experience. I have not had first hand experience of the submariner for example to know. 

Do my observations make any sense? Similar experience? Wild expectations?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I am afraid I will not be very helpful here. I have had my Ginault for less than 2 weeks. So far, I am very happy with the bracelet and clasp. Better fit than with the one from my old Rolex Explorer. Very easy to adjust and change. And so far, very solid, too. 

Best regards,


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

G4_Chrono said:


> View attachment 12645135


Mercedes hour hand? Drilled lugs? Is this a new version of the Ocean Rover???


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

G4_Chrono said:


> Guys, I'm looking for some feedback on clasp quality please . .
> 
> Mine has gone a bit sloppy. Both the safety clasp and the main release mechanism have a 'soft' action. They work, but not with the 'clunk, click or clack' that I might have expected. It takes no effort at all to release, its eager to lift out and the part that pivots under tension doesn't need to do so to release.
> 
> ...


I won't be any help eithee. Sorry. My Ocean Rover is pre-owned and spent its first 8 months with another owner - just to give you an idea of its age - and the clasp works perfectly. Have you contacted Ginault about your clasp?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Red PeeKay (Jan 20, 2011)

Avo said:


> Mercedes hour hand? Drilled lugs? Is this a new version of the Ocean Rover???


Ooooooo, and hoping it's somewhere in the range of 42-44mm, 'cause then I'm in!

"Expecto Inopinatum"


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

G4_Chrono said:


> View attachment 12645135


Looks like a Steinhart to me, except the bracelet's end-links.


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Yeah... That Gina quality is crap. Sell that $hi7 to me and be done with it.

:Wink:


G4_Chrono said:


> Guys, I'm looking for some feedback on clasp quality please . .
> 
> Mine has gone a bit sloppy. Both the safety clasp and the main release mechanism have a 'soft' action. They work, but not with the 'clunk, click or clack' that I might have expected. It takes no effort at all to release, its eager to lift out and the part that pivots under tension doesn't need to do so to release.
> 
> ...


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh no

No way. I have had more Steinis that I can count, and the Gina quality and shape is far FAR better !!! Also.the dial and dial print is much better !! Among other things...

!


lvt said:


> Looks like a Steinhart to me, except the bracelet's end-links.


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

goyoneuff said:


> Oh no
> 
> No way. I have had more Steinis that I can count, and the Gina quality and shape is far FAR better !!! Also.the dial and dial print is much better !! Among other things...
> 
> !


I were talking about the look, not the quality.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> Mercedes hour hand? Drilled lugs? Is this a new version of the Ocean Rover???


True! Did not see those details. Would also like to hear about this. Nothing new on Ginault's web.

Best regards,


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Avo said:


> Mercedes hour hand? Drilled lugs? Is this a new version of the Ocean Rover???





Red PeeKay said:


> Ooooooo, and hoping it's somewhere in the range of 42-44mm, 'cause then I'm in!
> 
> "Expecto Inopinatum"





lvt said:


> Looks like a Steinhart to me, except the bracelet's end-links.





GarbanzoNegro said:


> True! Did not see those details. Would also like to hear about this. Nothing new on Ginault's web.
> 
> Best regards,


Sorry guys, this is just my BGW9 version - I had the lugs drilled and maxi merc hands fitted



And my questions about the clasp; my clasp works fine, its a wonderful feature of the watch too - I often use the glide lock to adjust for comfort. It just feels that the snap open and close could 'feel' better. Thanks for the input.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

goyoneuff said:


> Oh no
> 
> No way. I have had more Steinis that I can count, and the Gina quality and shape is far FAR better !!! Also.the dial and dial print is much better !! Among other things...
> 
> !


The quality on the 'Gina' (good name) is great. Its why I went for it and (other than my queries on my clasp) Ive not been disappointed.

The dial is stunning, i don't think there is another applied indice dial to match it - in the affordable / homage market?


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

The only thing I would change about my Ocean Rover is the text on the dial. Instead of what’s on there now I would change it to this:

Flower
GINAULT

OCEAN ROVER
1000 ft/300 m
Automatic

The current text, I know, is a play on the text on the dial of a Submariner. I get that but it should be revised to be more concise and relevant. Or, the buyer should at least have the option for that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

Fully agree on the lengthy dial text. After getting mine, I wrote to them suggesting a two liner or similar (with minimal text) and they seemed to be receptive... maybe if they hear from many of us it may happen!


----------



## coachbh (Oct 21, 2017)

Great observations osborn. Agree on all points. With a collection of 20+ watches, this one has been on my wrist for a month.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hello,

How do you wear your clasp with the half-links and extensions? 








Here is mine. Since I was unable to remove the half-link, that's how I am wearing it.

Best regards,


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

coachbh said:


> Great observations osborn. Agree on all points. With a collection of 20+ watches, this one has been on my wrist for a month.
> View attachment 12654315


As much as I love this watch...and I do love it...in a sense I wish I had never gotten it. Why? Because it has absolutely detroyed my preference for what I considered my "perfect" diameter watch - 43/44MM. Since the Ocean Rover, at 40MM, has entered my life anything larger looks ridiculous...almost like a clock on my wrist. It bums me out because there are so many 43/44MM watches that I once loved/wanted/lusted after and those are all now relegated to the scrap heap of no longer acceptable. Some of these watches have ~40MM variants but not all. November 3rd was a bitter sweet day indeed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you wear your clasp with the half-links and extensions?
> 
> ...


Why do you need to remove the half link? The glide lock can only accept the extension links' width. If you don't want the half link can simply glide it in. LOL


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Hello,
> 
> How do you wear your clasp with the half-links and extensions?
> 
> ...


Why do you need to remove the half link? The glide lock can only accept the extension links' width. If you don't want the half link can simply glide it in. LOL


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> Why do you need to remove the half link? The glide lock can only accept the extension links' width. If you don't want the half link can simply glide it in. LOL


Well, I wanted to take the half link off to glide out of the clasp. I simply thought that it would be better having less links (do not intend to use the watch for diver purposes).

Best regards,


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Well, I wanted to take the half link off to glide out of the clasp. I simply thought that it would be better having less links (do not intend to use the watch for diver purposes).
> 
> Best regards,


I see. But what about on days where your wrist swell up a bit more and need a bit more room?

On a side note i do use my OR when surfing. Maybe everyone is different but i do keep both half links on and one more extension link on just in case i go out on a 5/4 days.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mf1tym said:


> I see. But what about on days where your wrist swell up a bit more and need a bit more room?
> 
> On a side note i do use my OR when surfing. Maybe everyone is different but i do keep both half links on and one more extension link on just in case i go out on a 5/4 days.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Makes sense.

I believe that 1 dent more or less in the clasp should be enough for those days.

In my Exp I, adjusting it one hole more or less made a huge difference. Way to much to be useful for a daily basis (plus you need a toothpick or something similar to work on it).

Best regards,


----------



## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

G4_Chrono said:


> Sorry guys, this is just my BGW9 version - I had the lugs drilled and maxi merc hands fitted


G4, who drilled the lugs for you and how much did it cost, if you dont mind. Ive actually been contemplating having this done to my Ginault so I am very curious.


----------



## donnytron (Feb 12, 2017)

Looks great, and I'm surprised at how many people seem to HATE the brand because of the age-old homage debate.



DuckaDiesel said:


> Had it for 48 hours, talk about accuracy  love this thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

donnytron said:


> Looks great, and I'm surprised at how many people seem to HATE the brand because of the age-old homage debate.


While I didn't HATE the Ocean Rover I wasn't enamored with it either...until I purchased one. Now, I am enamored with it and have been wearing it non-stop since receiving it November 3rd.

Initially, I saw it as just another homage but as I learned more about it, by reading reviews and watching videos, I came to see it as a re-establishment of real watchmaking in America and that's why I bought it. I am not at all concerned about all the angst expressed on WUS because many of thise very same people have purchased a MKII, Steinhart, etc., and have no problem wearing those watches. I don't get that and, quite frankly, I don't care. No one is buying a watch for me so they can all take a long walk off a short pier.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

biscuit141 said:


> G4, who drilled the lugs for you and how much did it cost, if you dont mind. Ive actually been contemplating having this done to my Ginault so I am very curious.


+1 can we know about this info too? Very intrigued.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

G4_Chrono said:


> The quality on the 'Gina' (good name) is great. Its why I went for it and (other than my queries on my clasp) Ive not been disappointed.
> 
> The dial is stunning, i don't think there is another applied indice dial to match it - in the affordable / homage market?


I totally agree on this point their dials hands indices all indications of work done by true masters, top quality. Miles away from your everyday sub homeages.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

i got mine in today, its awesome. love this watch


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> i got mine in today, its awesome. love this watch


Right!?! I too was, and continue to be, amazed by the Ocean Rover. It truly is an incredible piece.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> Right!?! I too was, and continue to be, amazed by the Ocean Rover. It truly is an incredible piece.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


just wore it for my first full day, its very very compelling. I could see another OR though it will be a while before im shopping at this price point again, but i cant wait to see what they bring to us next. Id like for them to be able to make the rest of the movement here. It doesnt sound like they outsource a ton of parts, but enough to not beable to claim made in usa. It would be neat to see that change, but im not worried if it never happens. Im pretty sure this ****s all over the new shinola automatic. Its a shame with shinola as i would love to get a watch or two of theirs but the pricing in lunacy. None of those quartzes come close to may casio oceanus and they are $300 more or better. Whelp im droneing on here.

The glide lock is beautiful, lovely adjusting the watch on the fly throughout the day. The ginault is great and personally i love the somewhat nonesense text on the dial. Its very try hard but makes me chuckle. I love it, its like how the USA made spyderco knives will say Golden CO, USA EARTH. Hilarious on a well made product.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> just wore it for my first full day, its very very compelling. I could see another OR though it will be a while before im shopping at this price point again, but i cant wait to see what they bring to us next. Id like for them to be able to make the rest of the movement here. It doesnt sound like they outsource a ton of parts, but enough to not beable to claim made in usa. It would be neat to see that change, but im not worried if it never happens. Im pretty sure this ****s all over the new shinola automatic. Its a shame with shinola as i would love to get a watch or two of theirs but the pricing in lunacy. None of those quartzes come close to may casio oceanus and they are $300 more or better. Whelp im droneing on here.
> 
> The glide lock is beautiful, lovely adjusting the watch on the fly throughout the day. The ginault is great and personally i love the somewhat nonesense text on the dial. Its very try hard but makes me chuckle. I love it, its like how the USA made spyderco knives will say Golden CO, USA EARTH. Hilarious on a well made product.


So refreshing to see someone else acknowledge all of this, especially in comparison to the new Shinola watch. You have taken the words right out of my mouth. Ginault is not just another micro brand. Whereas every other micro brand out sources every single component of their watches (the watches arrive ready for the movement to be dropped in), Ginault has contracted with high end artisans (like the master porcelain dial maker in Great Britain) to create certain components that are assembled in the US (i.e., the watch cases and bracelets do not arrive to our shores completely assembled). As you mentioned, Ginault out sources one or two components of the entire movement - those components that truly require special machinery to produce. But, here's the deal, American watchmakers from the early 20th century did the exact same thing, except they got those very same movement components from Great Britain instead of China. Unfortunately, there are no main spring manufacturers in Great Britain any longer so Ginault had to find a "new" source for them.

To say that I am excited about what Ginault is doing would be an understatement. I am very impressed. They have embraced the very same practices that earlier watchmakers in the US employed and it is exciting to be a part of watchmaking history!

Enjoy your watch!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> So refreshing to see someone else acknowledge all of this, especially in comparison to the new Shinola watch. You have taken the words right out of my mouth. Ginault is not just another micro brand. Whereas every other micro brand out sources every single component of their watches (the watches arrive ready for the movement to be dropped in), Ginault has contracted with high end artisans (like the master porcelain dial maker in Great Britain) to create certain components that are assembled in the US (i.e., the watch cases and bracelets do not arrive to our shores completely assembled). As you mentioned, Ginault out sources one or two components of the entire movement - those components that truly require special machinery to produce. But, here's the deal, American watchmakers from the early 20th century did the exact same thing, except they got those very same movement components from Great Britain instead of China. Unfortunately, there are no main spring manufacturers in Great Britain any longer so Ginault had to find a "new" source for them.
> 
> To say that I am excited about what Ginault is doing would be an understatement. I am very impressed. They have embraced the very same practices that earlier watchmakers in the US employed and it is exciting to be a part of watchmaking history!
> 
> Enjoy your watch!


Actually, the more I read and find about Ginault, the more confused I am. It seems like a non-USA company registering the brand and logo in the USA with no further information about real offices and so on.

Anyone able to give facts about this would be welcome!

Best regards,


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Actually, the more I read and find about Ginault, the more confused I am. It seems like a non-USA company registering the brand and logo in the USA with no further information about real offices and so on.
> 
> Anyone able to give facts about this would be welcome!
> 
> Best regards,


Why don't you contact them yourself?

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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

there's no point in pursuing this line of inquiry. Questions have been asked and answered; some accept the answers at face value, others want but haven't been provided corroboration. It's been done to death. Good luck getting more info out of Ginault, there are plenty of folks who would be interested in learning more details, but we tend to get tarred and feathered around here for daring to challenge the claims that Ginault is doing something that hasn't been done in the US for many decades at a cost that seems impossible to those who understand the business. It's not a matter of being a "hater"; we're watch enthusiasts who truly are interested in understanding how Ginault has pulled off the seemingly impossible.

Beyond that, @rosborn you make some pretty strong generalizations about "every other micro brand." I don't think it's accurate to lump them in a big group. In my experience, it'd be like herding cats, and if their business practices seem similar, it's because they're all limited by the same manufacturing problems afflicting any watchmaker: limited choice of movements; limited access to manufacturing facilities; and customers who demand high quality and low costs. Ginault says they've skinned that cat, but how on earth they're making any profit on watches if truly assembled/built or whatever they now are saying they're doing in the US, it seems miraculous. The numbers don't add up.

All that aside, I am curious how you differentiate between the microbrands' "outsourcing" and Ginault's "contracting"? Same thing by another name, no?

For what it's worth, the list of parts/components that Ginault outsources likely is every bit as long and complete as the lists you'd find from any microbrand wiling to share that info.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

hwa said:


> there's no point in pursuing this line of inquiry. Questions have been asked and answered; some accept the answers at face value, others want but haven't been provided corroboration. It's been done to death. Good luck getting more info out of Ginault, there are plenty of folks who would be interested in learning more details, but we tend to get tarred and feathered around here for daring to challenge the claims that Ginault is doing something that hasn't been done in the US for many decades at a cost that seems impossible to those who understand the business. It's not a matter of being a "hater"; we're watch enthusiasts who truly are interested in understanding how Ginault has pulled off the seemingly impossible.
> 
> Beyond that, @rosborn you make some pretty strong generalizations about "every other micro brand." I don't think it's accurate to lump them in a big group. In my experience, it'd be like herding cats, and if their business practices seem similar, it's because they're all limited by the same manufacturing problems afflicting any watchmaker: limited choice of movements; limited access to manufacturing facilities; and customers who demand high quality and low costs. Ginault says they've skinned that cat, but how on earth they're making any profit on watches if truly assembled/built or whatever they now are saying they're doing in the US, it seems miraculous. The numbers don't add up.
> 
> ...


Alright. Name one micro brand in the US, one, who is not dropping movements into watches made entirely made in a factory in Asia or some other, non-European, locale?

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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Actually, the more I read and find about Ginault, the more confused I am. It seems like a non-USA company registering the brand and logo in the USA with no further information about real offices and so on.
> 
> Anyone able to give facts about this would be welcome!
> 
> Best regards,


No facts to be found here kiddo...... they're a forum sponsor, so their marketing gobbeldygook, plagiarized from a well known and regarded faker making the same case, sourcing bezels from a gunsmith in PA, a 2824 clone that's souped up with the same modifications, and fancy pants dials from some dude in the UK who apparently stopped selling his pieces right around when Ginault showed up is all you get. I mean. That and that the FTC made them change the case backs out since they aren't made in the USA. But man alive does that idea (apparently) sell........

Open minded folks can put two and two together. The devout don't care to.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mike120 said:


> No facts to be found here kiddo...... they're a forum sponsor, so their marketing gobbeldygook, plagiarized from a well known and regarded faker making the same case, sourcing bezels from a gunsmith in PA, a 2824 clone that's souped up with the same modifications, and fancy pants dials from some dude in the UK who apparently stopped selling his pieces right around when Ginault showed up is all you get. I mean. That and that the FTC made them change the case backs out since they aren't made in the USA. But man alive does that idea (apparently) sell........
> 
> Open minded folks can put two and two together. The devout don't care to.


Just as sure as we know your real name and where you're from. You can tell us anything and we can choose to believe you...or not. Same for any company. You either choose to believe what any company says about itself or you don't.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mike120 said:


> No facts to be found here kiddo...... they're a forum sponsor, so their marketing gobbeldygook, plagiarized from a well known and regarded faker making the same case, sourcing bezels from a gunsmith in PA, a 2824 clone that's souped up with the same modifications, and fancy pants dials from some dude in the UK who apparently stopped selling his pieces right around when Ginault showed up is all you get. I mean. That and that the FTC made them change the case backs out since they aren't made in the USA. But man alive does that idea (apparently) sell........
> 
> Open minded folks can put two and two together. The devout don't care to.


Mike i have to beg to differ. The same case? Have you even compared the two in hand? Or this is just you spreading vile msgs about the company again?

This Sub speced case Ginault made is day and night different from any rep makes. If you really know what you are talking about. Should do your studies first.

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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Mike i have to beg to differ. The same case? Have you even compared the two in hand? Or this is just you spreading vile msgs about the company again?
> 
> This Sub speced case Ginault made is day and night different from any rep makes. If you really know what you are talking about. Should do your studies first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


No I wouldn't touch a rep, or anything close to one with a 10ft pole. But if you want to do some reading in the darker corners of the watch world you'll find that the cases made by Mr. Caddel get the same acclaim that the Ginault case does. Seems to me as though perhaps you may want to take your own advice...... particularly since not a single thing I said is untrue :-!

Enjoy the OR though!



rosborn said:


> Just as sure as we know your real name and where you're from. You can tell us anything and we can choose to believe you...or not. Same for any company. You either choose to believe what any company says about itself or you don't.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


...... huh?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Setting aside the implicit racism of your challenge, you're missing my point entirely. I suspect that most micros independently choose to have their watches manufactured in Chinese factories due to considerations of both price and availability of necessary machinery. That's likely true whether they're micros based in the US, Canada, Australia, or the Netherlands. It's also true of many of the "Swiss Made" big boys, which still can claim to be Swiss Made even if they're made almost entirely of non-Swiss components. That's precisely why the Swiss law is changing.

From other of your posts, I get the impression you know about manufacturing. Vertical integration for watch manufacture does not come cheap. You need a CNC for the case, and other expensive, specialized equipment for the crystals, handsets, bracelets, etc., not to mention the machines required to pull of the really tricky parts of the movements. That's why watches are made, now, in China, because they not only have these machines, but they have low-cost labor source, lax environmental regulation, and non-existent IP protection. Trifecta, if you're looking for a low-cost watch; disaster if you're looking to reestablish American manufacturing.

So, all the ugliness engendered by the Ginault question arises from exactly that space: lots of American watch enthusiasts would love to support a return of American watch manufacture, myself included. Lots of us would gladly pay more for an American made product, not because Americans are more highly skilled or build better products, but because we like the idea of supporting our own economy and our neighbors who need good jobs. I attribute it to patriotic pride, shared by all nationalities.

Those of us who understand the costs of manufacture and profit margins look at Ginault and see math that doesn't add up. So, we ask questions about how Ginault can offer such high quality at such low cost. Look at Shinola getting hammered for its $2k watch, with jobs that are paying $12/hour from what I've read. There's American profit, but not high paying jobs, and Shinola is only assembling components in the US, not fabricating parts or building movements. Meanwhile, Ginault sells the OR for $600 or less, or at least has been. I haven't checked the prices since I got mine. And whatever profits they're trying to pull out of that $600 is being pocketed not by a one-man shop like many of the micros, but is being shared by a larger corporate structure. It reminds me of the old adage: we lose money on every sale, but we make up for that with volume.



rosborn said:


> Alright. Name one micro brand in the US, one, who is not dropping movements into watches made entirely made in a factory in Asia or some other, non-European, locale?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Yawnnnn...

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> Mike i have to beg to differ. The same case? Have you even compared the two in hand? Or this is just you spreading vile msgs about the company again?
> 
> This Sub speced case Ginault made is day and night different from any rep makes. If you really know what you are talking about. Should do your studies first.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


We don't even know if Mike is his real name. Anyone can pick an anonymous handle to hide behind. In fact, there are a LOT of things we don't know about "Mike". What we do know is he certainly has an axe to grind against Ginault and is very passionate about that. I wonder why? It almost borders on obsession.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mike120 said:


> No I wouldn't touch a rep, or anything close to one with a 10ft pole. But if you want to do some reading in the darker corners of the watch world you'll find that the cases made by Mr. Caddel get the same acclaim that the Ginault case does. Seems to me as though perhaps you may want to take your own advice...... particularly since not a single thing I said is untrue :-!
> 
> Enjoy the OR though!
> 
> ...... huh?


There you go another person who has seen neither making claims here. Mike bc you read something from the dark side so that makes everthing there true? You have not seen the two next to each other with your own eyes. Its your assumption what you said is true. By that logic whatever you read here from Ginault should also be true.

Just fyi there r also many and i mean many known experts in the field concluded the two are different like night and day.

I would suggest that before you have concrete evidence it is best to refrain from what i call spreading rumors.

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mike120 said:


> No I wouldn't touch a rep, or anything close to one with a 10ft pole. But if you want to do some reading in the darker corners of the watch world you'll find that the cases made by Mr. Caddel get the same acclaim that the Ginault case does. Seems to me as though perhaps you may want to take your own advice...... particularly since not a single thing I said is untrue :-!
> 
> Enjoy the OR though!
> 
> ...... huh?


In other words...I don't believe a thing you write. I don't know you nor do I have any way to confirm who you are. You're just a nameless and faceless contributor to an internet forum who claims to be mike120. You can make all the claims and insinuations you want but that doesn't make them true. My impression of you is that your tendency towards conspiracy theories doesn't begin or end with Ginault. Sad little life.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Setting aside the implicit racism of your challenge, you're missing my point entirely. I suspect that most micros independently choose to have their watches manufactured in Chinese factories due to considerations of both price and availability of necessary machinery. That's likely true whether they're micros based in the US, Canada, Australia, or the Netherlands. It's also true of many of the "Swiss Made" big boys, which still can claim to be Swiss Made even if they're made almost entirely of non-Swiss components. That's precisely why the Swiss law is changing.
> 
> From other of your posts, I get the impression you know about manufacturing. Vertical integration for watch manufacture does not come cheap. You need a CNC for the case, and other expensive, specialized equipment for the crystals, handsets, bracelets, etc., not to mention the machines required to pull of the really tricky parts of the movements. That's why watches are made, now, in China, because they not only have these machines, but they have low-cost labor source, lax environmental regulation, and non-existent IP protection. Trifecta, if you're looking for a low-cost watch; disaster if you're looking to reestablish American manufacturing.
> 
> ...


Oh great Hwa again. Is this another attempt of you to shut down this thread and sink it? So who ever you shill for can have a better time if Ginault is out of the picture? I been watching you. You are a strong supporter of N to the T to the &#8230;&#8230;you know what.

I see you basically mentioned that brand in every single Ginault thread at least once or twice. Speaking of suspicious motives hm&#8230;

Btw the definition of racist is prejudice based on skin color. Its not racist to recognize the chinese production's limited ability. Its the truth. Before Ginault came to the scene there was no micro brands' Sub at this level of quality. Ginault Ocean Rover compared to your beloved NTH is sky and dirt. So please stop with the non sense.

You didnt even know the cost of the Ocean Rover and yet you are here yapping about cost. In my last email exchange with them trying to buy another OR for the same initial discount I received they told me that they could no longer offer that as they were losing money selling each watch at that price. They did that in the begining because they really wanted a chance to be recognized. According to them their Ocean Rover cost more than $800 to make and the quality really shows. This is not something they got in China for 200 and try to brand it and market it for 500 600 okay? Know your facts before you speak.

This company and what they are doing is a true American treasure. We should help support their vision. They are the real thing.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

hwa said:


> Setting aside the implicit racism of your challenge, you're missing my point entirely. I suspect that most micros independently choose to have their watches manufactured in Chinese factories due to considerations of both price and availability of necessary machinery. That's likely true whether they're micros based in the US, Canada, Australia, or the Netherlands. It's also true of many of the "Swiss Made" big boys, which still can claim to be Swiss Made even if they're made almost entirely of non-Swiss components. That's precisely why the Swiss law is changing.
> 
> From other of your posts, I get the impression you know about manufacturing. Vertical integration for watch manufacture does not come cheap. You need a CNC for the case, and other expensive, specialized equipment for the crystals, handsets, bracelets, etc., not to mention the machines required to pull of the really tricky parts of the movements. That's why watches are made, now, in China, because they not only have these machines, but they have low-cost labor source, lax environmental regulation, and non-existent IP protection. Trifecta, if you're looking for a low-cost watch; disaster if you're looking to reestablish American manufacturing.
> 
> ...


Laughable. Idiot. I have owned more Seikos than I can count. Crawl back under your rock.

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Is this another attempt of you to shut down this thread and sink it? So who ever you shill for can have a better time if Ginault is out of the picture?


Funny. You've been accused of being a shill for Ginault so you flip it around and accuse Ginault detractors of being a shill for other microbrands. You expressed in another thread that you think other microbrands banded together and hired well-established and respected WUS members to crap on Ginault. Really? And *rosborn *accuses *mike120 *of having "tendency towards conspiracy theories"? I'd say your fellow Ginault fanboy, *rosborn*, should be accusing you instead. "Sad little life," indeed.



mf1tym said:


> I been watching you. You are a strong supporter of N to the T to the &#8230;&#8230;you know what... Ginault Ocean Rover compared to your beloved NTH is sky and dirt.


Wait, I thought you said I was the "strong supporter" of NTH. It's *hwa *now? What's with you and NTH? It appears NTH is your favorite whipping boy for comparison with Ginault. You are going to hurt *docvail*'s feeling especially after he put in a good word for Ginault.



mf1tym said:


> You didnt even know the cost of the Ocean Rover and yet you are here yapping about cost. In my last email exchange with them trying to buy another OR for the same initial discount I received they told me that they could no longer offer that as they were losing money selling each watch at that price. They did that in the begining because they really wanted a chance to be recognized. According to them their Ocean Rover cost more than $800 to make and the quality really shows. This is not something they got in China for 200 and try to brand it and market it for 500 600 okay? Know your facts before you speak.


Yet, Ginault continues to offer discounts. The latest is 40% discount for a review. Did they ever not offer discount? Has anyone bought one a full price? Kinda like Invicta, huh? Isn't it obvious that Ginault continues to offer and sell at discounted price because they still make profit.



mf1tym said:


> This company and what they are doing is a true American treasure. We should help support their vision. They are the real thing.


To paraphrase *rosborn*, Ginault can "make all the claims and insinuations you want but that doesn't make them true."


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

RNHC said:


> Funny. You've been accused of being a shill for Ginault so you flip it around and accuse Ginault detractors of being a shill for other microbrands. You expressed in another thread that you think other microbrands banded together and hired well-established and respected WUS members to crap on Ginault. Really? And *rosborn *accuses *mike120 *of having "tendency towards conspiracy theories"? I'd say your fellow Ginault fanboy, *rosborn*, should be accusing you instead. "Sad little life," indeed.
> 
> Wait, I thought you said I was the "strong supporter" of NTH. It's *hwa *now? What's with you and NTH? It appears NTH is your favorite whipping boy for comparison with Ginault. You are going to hurt *docvail*'s feeling especially after he put in a good word for Ginault.
> 
> ...


What's it to you?

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

rosborn said:


> Alright. Name one micro brand in the US, one, who is not dropping movements into watches made entirely made in a factory in Asia or some other, non-European, locale?


Exactly! What makes you think that Ginault is any different? It's economically implausible, nigh impossible, for a microbrand to be profitable without making their watches in Asia. That's why there is none.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Funny. You've been accused of being a shill for Ginault so you flip it around and accuse Ginault detractors of being a shill for other microbrands. You expressed in another thread that you think other microbrands banded together and hired well-established and respected WUS members to crap on Ginault. Really? And *rosborn *accuses *mike120 *of having "tendency towards conspiracy theories"? I'd say your fellow Ginault fanboy, *rosborn*, should be accusing you instead. "Sad little life," indeed.
> 
> Wait, I thought you said I was the "strong supporter" of NTH. It's *hwa *now? What's with you and NTH? It appears NTH is your favorite whipping boy for comparison with Ginault. You are going to hurt *docvail*'s feeling especially after he put in a good word for Ginault.
> 
> ...


Another shill here on Ginault thread. Hey you havnt given a reply to me about how you without ever seeing the watch in person clowned on the gold sand lume implying poor quality. And what happened after everyone who owns the Ocean Rover proved the gold sand lume was nothing but superb quality? Never heard a sorry i was wrong to judge to quick from you. Anyome who cannot self introspect should not be commenting on the forums and speak about things he doesnt know as a matter of fact. This type of defaming tactic is old tricks.

Nothing you say is contributing facts but fabricated lies. I am not a shill but just someone who owns both Rolex and Ginault and can attest to the quality of the Ocean Rover being mm away from the Swiss giant.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Exactly! What makes you think that Ginault is any different? It's economically implausible, nigh impossible, for a microbrand to be profitable without making their watches in Asia. That's why there is none.


Ginault is different because the moment i saw the Ocean Rover in the steel I know this is a feat that no other micro brands have achieved. The Ginault Ocean Rover is true quality true craftsmanship. This is not your average 200 dollar sub homeage being sold for 500~600. This is a piece of American treasure.

If you can get into Ginault and show us that they are profitable then i will blv you. For the record you have been wrong about their qaulity before having any exp of the watch. Again and again spreading lies and vile words. And yet you pay such close attention to every move/sound ginault threads make. Any time there is a vile voice you come in and add on go the rumors fabricated by you and your shill team. Motive wise its really got me wondering.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

RNHC said:


> Exactly! What makes you think that Ginault is any different? It's economically implausible, nigh impossible, for a microbrand to be profitable without making their watches in Asia. That's why there is none.


Do you have a Ginault that broke your heart?

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

rosborn said:


> We don't even know if Mike is his real name. Anyone can pick an anonymous handle to hide behind. In fact, there are a LOT of things we don't know about "Mike".





rosborn said:


> In other words...I don't believe a thing you write. I don't know you nor do I have any way to confirm who you are. You're just a nameless and faceless contributor to an internet forum who claims to be mike120. You can make all the claims and insinuations you want but that doesn't make them true.


We don't even know if Ginault is his real name. Anyone can pick an anonymous handle to hide behind. In fact, there are a LOT of things we don't know about "Ginault".

In other words...I don't believe a thing Ginault write. I don't know you nor do I have any way to confirm who Ginault is. Ginault is just a nameless and faceless contributor to a microbrand industry who claims to be Ginault. Ginault can make all the claims and insinuations it wants but that doesn't make them true.

What do you know... it works for Ginault as well. :roll:


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mf1tym said:


> Another shill here on Ginault thread. Hey you havnt given a reply to me about how you without ever seeing the watch in person clowned on the gold sand lume implying poor quality. And what happened after everyone who owns the Ocean Rover proved the gold sand lume was nothing but superb quality? Never heard a sorry i was wrong to judge to quick from you. Anyome who cannot self introspect should not be commenting on the forums and speak about things he doesnt know as a matter of fact. This type of defaming tactic is old tricks.
> 
> Nothing you say is contributing facts but fabricated lies. I am not a shill but just someone who owns both Rolex and Ginault and can attest to the quality of the Ocean Rover being mm away from the Swiss giant.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


None of these clowns have ever seen or actually held an Ocean Rover. They're just sitting at their computers or responding on their cell phones, rubbing their hands together and cackling or smirking to themselves, thinking how they can get a rise out of people. They're small. It's cool. I see them for what they are and I am finished responding to them. I sure as heck am not going to waste my time trying to convince them of anything because I have better things to do...like use the restroom.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> We don't even know if Ginault is his real name. Anyone can pick an anonymous handle to hide behind. In fact, there are a LOT of things we don't know about "Ginault".
> 
> In other words...I don't believe a thing Ginault write. I don't know you nor do I have any way to confirm who Ginault is. Ginault is just a nameless and faceless contributor to a microbrand industry who claims to be Ginault. Ginault can make all the claims and insinuations it wants but that doesn't make them true.
> 
> What do you know... it works for Ginault as well. :roll:


I dont get your logic. Do you know who swatch is? Or who seiko is? Or who is tissot omega hamilton? Your argument is invalid.

The folks at Ginault is a group of truely talented people who are dedicated to their craft of horology. Rarely do micro brands possse the production know how and watchmaking know how like the good men at Ginault.

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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Exactly! What makes you think that Ginault is any different? It's economically implausible, nigh impossible, for a microbrand to be profitable without making their watches in Asia. That's why there is none.


And thats why before Ginault most Sub homeages I surveyed were just mediocre quality because their parts and some assembly were all from China.

I was also doubtful of Ginault's claim at first. But I was convinced the moment I saw the watch in person. The quality is just so much better than any other sub homeages i have held in person. This is no work from chinese part suppliers. If it were then the Ocean Rover wouldnt be the first of its kind to rival the Swiss giant's (Rolex) quality so closely. Just think about it guys if Ginault's parts were made in China why havnt other micros who debuted way ahead of Ginault found the suppliers?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Oh great Hwa again. Is this another attempt of you to shut down this thread and sink it? So who ever you shill for can have a better time if Ginault is out of the picture? I been watching you. You are a strong supporter of N to the T to the &#8230;&#8230;you know what.
> 
> I see you basically mentioned that brand in every single Ginault thread at least once or twice. Speaking of suspicious motives hm&#8230;
> 
> ...


Yep, me again. Somebody's wrong on the internet, and I cannot resist setting the record straight.

Those seeking disclosure, here ya' go: Chris Vail owns NTH. I didn't know him from Adam until a few years ago, when I came across his L&H pieces. Frankly, I liked his story better than I liked his watches, but I like to support people with good stories. I got the chance to meet him in person when business took me to his geographic area, we became friends and have remained friends despite his penchant for writing walls of text. I have no other interest in his company, certainly no financial interest. Just a fan, nothing more.

Beyond that, Ginault as a "true American treasure"?! The only way to improve on that is to imagine it spoken with an Elmer Fudd voice. Well played, that image will carry me right through the weekend!


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Hey you havnt given a reply to me about how you without ever seeing the watch in person clowned on the gold sand lume implying poor quality. And what happened after everyone who owns the Ocean Rover proved the gold sand lume was nothing but superb quality?


I vaguely remember mocking Ginault's claim of having "travelled to Alaska and to the very southern tip of Argentina in search for this luminescent material" when the said gold sand lume was an item that was available for order in a Chinese watch supply catalog. If I implied anything, I was implying that Ginault was full of crap.

Ginault's answer (or non-answer) is their so-called Media Q&A post confirmed that Ginault was full of crap.

"Q: It is hilarious you stated your "Gold Sand" lume is expansive and sourced from the edge of the world. Tell us where exactly did you sourced it or it is Chinese.

A: We regret trying too hard in our last marketing material. We also regret disclosing the actual geographical locations of where we sourced the "Gold Sand" lume. End of the day we are glad everyone had a good laugh, and yet we are still able to demonstrate that all jokes aside our lume quality is no joke."

Ginault never really confirm nor deny the source of gold sand lume, did they? Do you really think a small microbrand has the resources to devote to travelling the world to find one minor component of a small production run watch? Cuckoo for cocoa puffs, anyone? :roll:


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> I vaguely remember mocking Ginault's claim of having "travelled to Alaska and to the very southern tip of Argentina in search for this luminescent material" when the said gold sand lume was an item that was available for order in a Chinese watch supply catalog. If I implied anything, I was implying that Ginault was full of crap.
> 
> Ginault's answer (or non-answer) is their so-called Media Q&A post confirmed that Ginault was full of crap.
> 
> ...


Oh that age old claim that its from china.amd yet no other company has a patina this natural and this great. Why dont you go back and tell your boss to source it and out it on his watch?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Yep, me again. Somebody's wrong on the internet, and I cannot resist setting the record straight.
> 
> Those seeking disclosure, here ya' go: Chris Vail owns NTH. I didn't know him from Adam until a few years ago, when I came across his L&H pieces. Frankly, I liked his story better than I liked his watches, but I like to support people with good stories. I got the chance to meet him in person when business took me to his geographic area, we became friends and have remained friends despite his penchant for writing walls of text. I have no other interest in his company, certainly no financial interest. Just a fan, nothing more.
> 
> ...


FTFY.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rosborn said:


> Laughable. Idiot. I have owned more Seikos than I can count. Crawl back under your rock.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well, now, you've convinced me!

When you disparage Asian or "non-European" manufacturing with a broad brush, as you do, that's racist. Don't blame the messenger.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> And thats why before Ginault most Sub homeages I surveyed were just mediocre quality because their parts and some assembly were all from China.
> 
> I was also doubtful of Ginault's claim at first. But I was convinced the moment I saw the watch in person. The quality is just so much better than any other sub homeages i have held in person. This is no work from chinese part suppliers. If it were then the Ocean Rover wouldnt be the first of its kind to rival the Swiss giant's (Rolex) quality so closely. Just think about it guys if Ginault's parts were made in China why havnt other micros who debuted way ahead of Ginault found the suppliers?


Ah, so the basis of your premise that Ginault cannot be Chinese is that Chinese is not capable of producing high quality products. That sounds actually racist. But then again, racist thought goes hand in hand with ignorance and stupidity. MKII is made with parts from Chinese part suppliers and renowned for their high quality. How did MKII manage that?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rosborn said:


> None of these clowns have ever seen or actually held an Ocean Rover. They're just sitting at their computers or responding on their cell phones, rubbing their hands together and cackling or smirking to themselves, thinking how they can get a rise out of people. They're small. It's cool. I see them for what they are and I am finished responding to them. I sure as heck am not going to waste my time trying to convince them of anything because I have better things to do...like use the restroom.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is classic. The facts don't fit. Here's my review of the OR I bought and sold: apologies if it's generally positive of the product, even if disapproving of the brand: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/clas...sub-16610-vs-ginault-ocean-rover-3925066.html

Meanwhile, why not turn your hostility into another interesting inquiry. Go ahead and ask @mf1tym how many of his 329 posts relate to anything other than extolling Ginault? Mike120 and I have been around for a long time, and you'll find us talking about all sorts of things. Remind me, who's the shill? If I have my guess, @mf1tym has an undisclosed interest in Ginault. That would hardly be surprising, given the short time-lag between any negative post about Ginault and his reappearance. Maybe it's time the mods had a look.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> Ah, so the basis of your premise that Ginault cannot be Chinese is that Chinese is not capable of producing high quality products. That sounds actually racist. But then again, racist thought goes hand in hand with ignorance and stupidity. MKII is made with parts from Chinese part suppliers and renowned for their high quality. How did MKII manage that?


Why dont you send your mkii case + dial to a third party modder and i send my OR to the same agreed uppon modder for a detailed scoring event ?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Oh that age old claim that its from china.amd yet no other company has a patina this natural and this great. Why dont you go back and tell your boss to source it and out it on his watch?


It wasn't a claim. A scan of the actual catalog page was posted. Don't you remember? And who do you think is my boss? :think: Cuckoo for cocoa puffs, anyone?


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

RNHC said:


> It wasn't a claim. A scan of the actual catalog page was posted. Don't you remember? And who do you think is my boss? :think: Cuckoo for cocoa puffs, anyone?


Why dont you show us the scan? Better yet why dont you realy buy one and show us the bottle and compare to a Ginault with real photos

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mike120 said:


> FTW.


FTFY.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> None of these clowns have ever seen or actually held an Ocean Rover. They're just sitting at their computers or responding on their cell phones, rubbing their hands together and cackling or smirking to themselves, thinking how they can get a rise out of people. They're small. It's cool. I see them for what they are and I am finished responding to them. I sure as heck am not going to waste my time trying to convince them of anything because I have better things to do...like use the restroom.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Perfect response and you nailed it on their shallow and unsubstantiated agenda. Now that the watches are universally accepted as being the nicest Sub homages made (some argument for Bill Yao's work as well), they still can't back down. To do so would be to admit to being wrong, and some people in this world are simply not capable of that. One was even angered because he bought one, opened the back, knew nothing about movements, then got uptight when he couldn't flip it for a huge profit. Lol.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

mf1tym said:


> I dont get your logic. Do you know who swatch is? Or who seiko is? Or who is tissot omega hamilton? Your argument is invalid.
> 
> The folks at Ginault is a group of truely talented people who are dedicated to their craft of horology. Rarely do micro brands possse the production know how and watchmaking know how like the good men at Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Do you know the staff members personally? Know their names? Met in person?

Just curious, given nearly every post of yours refers to the Ginault _owners/staff members_ as good men, talented, dedicated, national treasure, etc.

Those are not descriptors of a company's staff I would expect, based solely on one's appreciation for _a watch._


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hanshananigan said:


> Do you know the staff members personally? Know their names? Met in person?
> 
> Just curious, given nearly every post of yours refers to the Ginault _owners/staff members_ as good men, talented, dedicated, national treasure, etc.
> 
> Those are not descriptors of a company's staff I would expect, based solely on one's appreciation for _a watch._


No to be honest besides my emails with John I have not communicated with anyone from Ginault.

But from our email correspondence and the quality of the watch presented if anyone has a good eye for quality its not hard to tell the Ocean Rovers are made by very skilled watchmakers and the parts used aint anything that we have seen on any Sub homeages. The Ocean Rover is the birth of a new breed of homeage whose quality can rival the makings of some Swiss giants.

The movement although just a clon of 2824 but 2824 is a very steady and reliable design. And my local watchmaker also commented that this watch is no micky mouse job. The people behind it really know their craft. From the BM1 they made 7 years ago (which i have never seen in person) to the Ocean Rover now (which I read is bounds and leaps ahead) 6 plus years to master the same craft. How can this not be dedication?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## DanKoR0 (Dec 4, 2015)

Question for those who think that Ginault's watches are too cheap to have been made in the US: How expensive would they have to be for you to believe Ginault's story?


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

hwa said:


> Well, now, you've convinced me!
> 
> When you disparage Asian or "non-European" manufacturing with a broad brush, as you do, that's racist. Don't blame the messenger.


hwa and RNHC,

From the comments I've seen across threads, they are about countries/nationality, not genetic background.

If someone said, an Asian-American dude trained in Basel couldn't make a decent watch because of his genes, that's racist.

If someone said an American could not make a great watch in the US using mostly US made parts for $800 under current conditions might be scandalously wrong (or not) but it is not racist.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

DanKoR0 said:


> Question for those who think that Ginault's watches are too cheap to have been made in the US: How expensive would they have to be for you to believe Ginault's story?


RGM in PA is 100% American made.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> Perfect response and you nailed it on their shallow and unsubstantiated agenda. Now that the watches are universally accepted as being the nicest Sub homages made (some argument for Bill Yao's work as well), they still can't back down. To do so would be to admit to being wrong, and some people in this world are simply not capable of that. One was even angered because he bought one, opened the back, knew nothing about movements, then got uptight when he couldn't flip it for a huge profit. Lol.


Thank you sir. I often say that it is pushy the boundary of credulity to comment on things you have no knowledge about. That's why I don't discuss rocket science and stopped participating incthe new Shinola watch thread (that thing could be the next best watch on the market - I don't know!). But...I do know how nice my Ocean Rover is and I love it. And...the fact of the matter is this, Ginault has released as much, if not more, information as any other watchmaker on where their parts are sourced. No one is asking exactly who makes the dials for Christopher Ward watches or where Selitta is "really" getting the main springs for their movements. At some point you either believe "stuff" or you don't. I don't have time to wring my hands over everything. If Ginault isn't being forthright it will eventually come out and it is likely they will lose all standing in the watch world. Unless and until that happens I will believe their claims and enjoy my watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hanshananigan said:


> hwa and RNHC,
> 
> From the comments I've seen across threads, they are about countries/nationality, not genetic background.
> 
> ...


I dont know how it is for most members here but personally I love Ginault's style. I dont know how they can stay so "zen" with all these crazyness going on. But as they pointed in their post rather than wasting their time to argue pointlessly here they do the speaking with the quality of the watches they build. Characters of true masters imho.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> hwa and RNHC,
> 
> From the comments I've seen across threads, they are about countries/nationality, not genetic background.
> 
> ...


One thing is for certain: calling people "shills" on a public forum without substantive evidence is slanderous and wrong. I think we can all agree on that.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> Thank you sir. I often say that it is pushy the boundary of credulity to comment on things you have no knowledge about. That's why I don't discuss rocket science and stopped participating incthe new Shinola watch thread (that thing could be the next best watch on the market - I don't know!). But...I do know how nice my Ocean Rover is and I love it. And...the fact of the matter is this, Ginault has released as much, if not more, information as any other watchmaker on where their parts are sourced. No one is asking exactly who makes the dials for Christopher Ward watches or where Selitta is "really" getting the main springs for their movements. At some point you either believe "stuff" or you don't. I don't have time to wring my hands over everything. If Ginault isn't being forthright it will eventually come out and it is likely they will lose all standing in the watch world. Unless and until that happens I will believe their claims and enjoy my watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Enjoy that fine timepiece and leave the angst and hand-wringing to the haters. At the end of the day they put together a beautiful watch that has met with universally positive reviews. That's the bottom line, and likely what has bothered some of these folks the most. Nothing would have pleased them more than to see the watches fall apart, start keeping erratic time, or turn into frogs at the strike of midnight. Ain't gonna happen and that's a tough pill for the irrational hater to swallow.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Radar1 said:


> Perfect response and you nailed it on their shallow and unsubstantiated agenda. Now that the watches are universally accepted as being the nicest Sub homages made (some argument for Bill Yao's work as well), they still can't back down. To do so would be to admit to being wrong, and some people in this world are simply not capable of that. One was even angered because he bought one, opened the back, knew nothing about movements, then got uptight when he couldn't flip it for a huge profit. Lol.


Hail, hail, the gang's all here!

It wont hurt my feelings if you identify me as the one youre referencing. Except i sold it to the penny for the price i paid, to a guy who contacted me unsolicited off list, no complaints about that at all.

But i know that wrecks your narrative. No hard feelings, though, i know youre still--i wont say "smarting," lets call it angry--that i called you a shill and never took it back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> hwa and RNHC,
> 
> From the comments I've seen across threads, they are about countries/nationality, not genetic background.
> 
> ...


I disagree, because he didn't attribute the comment to any lack machinery or high labor costs, but its not a hair I'll bother to split.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

hwa said:


> Hail, hail, the gang's all here!
> 
> It wont hurt my feelings if you identify me as the one youre referencing. Except i sold it to the penny for the price i paid, to a guy who contacted me unsolicited off list, no complaints about that at all.
> 
> ...


You most definitely were uptight that you didn't turn a quick profit. Play make believe all you want now. Lol.

Call me all the names you want. It means nothing - especially on the internet behind a keyboard.

What really sold all the watches? The undeniable quality and universally positive reviews. Since it's such a great product and that's what most rational watch collectors want at the end of the day, I am sure that most people who are not motivated by dogma and hate are pleased for the company.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Hail, hail, the gang's all here!
> 
> It wont hurt my feelings if you identify me as the one youre referencing. Except i sold it to the penny for the price i paid, to a guy who contacted me unsolicited off list, no complaints about that at all.
> 
> ...


Its funny you think the gang is all here when you and your cohords are the ones leaving footprint on every Ginault threads and youtubes.

Radar is the first to identify Ginault's true quality and took the risk to become one of the first few to purchase ans review this fine work of art.

@radar mad prop to you. You truly got an eye for good quality.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Its funny you think the gang is all here when you and your cohords are the ones leaving footprint on every Ginault threads and youtubes.
> 
> Radar is the first to identify Ginault's true quality and took the risk to become one of the first few to purchase ans review this fine work of art.
> 
> ...


Thank you. And no regrets about taking that risk at all. The watch is outstanding and the company great to deal with. No wonder they are prospering despite the persistent negative campaigns by the haters.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> You most definitely were uptight that you didn't turn a quick profit. Play make believe all you want now. Lol.
> 
> Call me all the names you want. It means nothing - especially on the internet behind a keyboard.
> 
> What really sold all the watches? The undeniable quality and universally positive reviews. Since it's such a great product and that's what most rational watch collectors want at the end of the day, I am sure that most people who are not motivated by dogma, a desire for original design and a company that respects IP, and hate are pleased for the company.


FTFY (man I'm getting tired of having to do this.....)


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> I disagree, because he didn't attribute the comment to any lack machinery or high labor costs, but its not a hair I'll bother to split.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I dont think the chinese lack the machines nor labor to produce what i was looking at was simple outcome/result. If Ginault's giant killing quality watch came from the same original as the other micros offering why is Ginault the only company able to source that?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> You most definitely were uptight that you didn't turn a quick profit. Play make believe all you want now. Lol.
> 
> Call me all the names you want. It means nothing - especially on the internet behind a keyboard.
> 
> What really sold all the watches? The undeniable quality and universally positive reviews. Since it's such a great product and that's what most rational watch collectors want at the end of the day, I am sure that most people who are not motivated by dogma, a desire for original design and a company that respects IP, and hate are pleased for the company.


FTFY (man I'm getting tired of having to do this.....)


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mike120 said:


> FTFY (man I'm getting tired of having to do this.....)


So stop. If homages are not your thing then move on. Simple. You could spend 24/7 for the rest of your days ripping apart any number of watch-makers on this score. Valuable use of your time on planet earth? Your call.

And stop editing (fixing) my posts while you're at it. Maybe it's time that YOU came up with your own material. Lol.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

hwa said:


> I disagree, because he didn't attribute the comment to any lack machinery or high labor costs, but its not a hair I'll bother to split.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is a good reminder to all to consider how our posts may be read, for sure. Especislly for an international crowd for which cultural norms and US English isn't necessarily native.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> So stop. If homages are not your thing then move on. Simple. You could spend 24/7 for the rest of your days ripping apart any number of watch-makers on this score. Valuable use of your time on planet earth? Your call.
> 
> And stop editing (fixing) my posts while you're at it. Maybe it's time that YOU came up with your own material. Lol.


He can't help himself. He has the day before Thanksgiving off and he's spending his time educating all of us dolts and saving thosr who are tempted to make the same mistake we did. Thank goodness we have "Mike" and his little buddy, "hwa", around to set us all straight.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> He can't help himself. He has the day before Thanksgiving off and he's spending his time educating all of us dolts and saving thosr who are tempted to make the same mistake we did. Thank goodness we have "Mike" and his little buddy, "hwa", around to set us all straight.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


The biggest problem, of course, is that they all deal in these murky suppositions and suspicions that are never, ever backed up by real facts. Then it is bundled up in vitriol and trotted out by the same few spiteful souls (hey, full credit for dogged, if misguided, determination), and sold to anyone who will listen as being the gospel truth and irrefutable. If you don't agree with their group think, or back what is clearly a superb product, you get kicked in the shins and called a "shill". I've gone from getting irritated to simply being amused by the antics. Who says these guys are NOT the lackeys for some as yet unnamed other brand(s) who derive a lot of their own design cues from Rolex??


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hwa said:


> Hail, hail, the gang's all here!


Yes, the circle j is complete. We can let the echo chamber start echoing. :-d


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## DanKoR0 (Dec 4, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> RGM in PA is 100% American made.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, I've poked around their site before but had forgotten about them. Their watches seem to be quite a bit more elaborate than the Ginault (though I haven't handled either personally) so I don't know if it's a great direct comparison, but very cool stuff nonetheless.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the America Issue Field Watch from Weiss is 100% American made, and costs $1,995. Is this a believable price for an American made watch?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> One thing is for certain: calling people "shills" on a public forum without substantive evidence is slanderous and wrong. I think we can all agree on that.


Listen to Radar1, mf1tym. Shame, shame, shame. Did you "like" Radar1's post? Do you know what irony is? :-d :-d


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

DanKoR0 said:


> Thanks, I've poked around their site before but had forgotten about them. Their watches seem to be quite a bit more elaborate than the Ginault (though I haven't handled either personally) so I don't know if it's a great direct comparison, but very cool stuff nonetheless.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the America Issue Field Watch from Weiss is 100% American made, and costs $1,995. Is this a believable price for an American made watch?


Weiss is "assembled in America" with American and Swiss parts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> He can't help himself. He has the day before Thanksgiving off and he's spending his time educating all of us dolts and saving thosr who are tempted to make the same mistake we did. Thank goodness we have "Mike" and his little buddy, "hwa", around to set us all straight.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


For the record, I have also found the "Ignore" functionality incredibly useful for these creepy characters. There is something oddly satisfying about seeing their usernames and no associated post, knowing they are trying so hard to stir the pot and get other people banned as often as they have been. Lol.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

hanshananigan said:


> hwa and RNHC,
> 
> From the comments I've seen across threads, they are about countries/nationality, not genetic background.


Other than the "melting pot" US, everywhere else in the world, a nationality is synonymous with ethnicity. Therefore, when you generalize or attribute a certain negative characteristics or traits to a nationality, you're attributing it to that ethnic group or "race" - which is the definition of prejudice or, when prejudice applied specifically to a race, racism.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> ...knowing they are trying so hard to stir the pot and get other people banned as often as they have been. Lol.


Guilty conscience speaking, I assume. Strange how people project their oneself to others.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> For the record, I have also found the "Ignore" functionality incredibly useful for these creepy characters. There is something oddly satisfying about seeing their usernames and no associated post, knowing they are trying so hard to stir the pot and get other people banned as often as they have been. Lol.


I just put a few of them on the block/ignore list. I agree. They must be bored and decided to head over here to rattle our cages.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

rosborn said:


> ...he's spending his time educating all of us dolts and saving thosr who are tempted to make the same mistake we did.


So you do understand what we are trying to accomplish! Sorry we weren't here earlier to help you. If we had, you wouldn't be here trying so hard to justify and rationalize your purchase decision.


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## DanKoR0 (Dec 4, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> Weiss is "assembled in America" with American and Swiss parts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that the case for all of their movements? Their website says that the CAL 1001 and CAL 2100 are assembled from Swiss parts, but says that the CAL 1003 is manufactured and assembled in Los Angeles.

Link that I'm referring to:

https://weisswatchcompany.com/pages/usamade-movements


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Did Radar1 start posting photos yet? That's his usual MO with Ginault. Ginault may be a lying unethical mess of a company but their watch is good so it doesn't matter. It's true. See my photos?

EDIT: Sorry. I just saw that Radar1 did indeed start posting his photos. LOL.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

DanKoR0 said:


> Is that the case for all of their movements? Their website says that the CAL 1001 and CAL 2100 are assembled from Swiss parts, but says that the CAL 1003 is manufactured and assembled in Los Angeles.
> 
> Link that I'm referring to:
> 
> https://weisswatchcompany.com/pages/usamade-movements


You're right, it seems like it is. I'm assuming, though, that a hand winder is a bit less complicated then an auto and has less parts.

I merely quoted the off the home page, I did not delve into every movement.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> The biggest problem, of course, is that they all deal in these murky suppositions and suspicions that are never, ever backed up by real facts. Then it is bundled up in vitriol and trotted out by the same few spiteful souls (hey, full credit for dogged, if misguided, determination), and sold to anyone who will listen as being the gospel truth and irrefutable. If you don't agree with their group think, or back what is clearly a superb product, you get kicked in the shins and called a "shill". I've gone from getting irritated to simply being amused by the antics. Who says these guys are NOT the lackeys for some as yet unnamed other brand(s) who derive a lot of their own design cues from Rolex??


Nice of you to summarize exactly what we say about Ginault and its fanboys. That's funny.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

I haven't followed this from the beginning, but tuned in a few months ago when I ran across threads about the brand. I bought one at a discount and did a review, but because I liked the watch and wanted to contribute to the dialogue, not because I promised a review (which they didn't ask for at the time). I don't know anyone at the company or anything that can't be found on the internet, though I have emailed back and forth with John McMurtry several times. I'm just posting because, having read through all the Ginault threads, these arguments start up, and it seems that everyone has forgotten what has been said already.

To reiterate, for the casual reader trying to follow all this:

What Ginault has actually said regarding the source of its parts, the bracelets and shock absorbers are made in China, springs and jewels in Switzerland, balance in the U.S.

There were rumors that they were, or had connections to, a known replica maker, based on the similarity between their movement spacer and that of the rep maker, and because they mentioned using a similar manufacturing technique on their bezel ratchet using similar verbiage on their website. An e-zine contacted said maker, who denied it, saying that it was all he could do to keep up with demand for his own products. I have no knowledge about this one way or the other, but the replica-maker-connection accusation has always seemed odd to me. If replica makers have inside knowledge of watchmaking, everyone should hire one. And if replica-makers decide to go legit and start micro brands, that seems like a move in the right direction. The implication seemed to be that they were using some kind of black magic unavailable to other micros. If they can make dozens of parts that are dead ringers for the old Sub, they can certainly make a movement spacer.

It has been said that there is proof of this connection on the dark web (which I assume means replica sites), but I never found any, and proof given that their lume is available via catalog from China, though I haven't seen that either. It does seem odd that no one else is using it if it is easily available, but I don't have evidence one way or the other.

What I've personally observed about the watch is that the bracelet, while excellent, isn't as well-finished as the case. If I look closely, the clasp is slightly mis-aligned and the finish is slightly flawed on the case end. The case on mine is pretty near flawless. The end-link to lug fit is as good as I've seen on any watch: better than the Certina I had, and better than the Tudor BB36 I held at an AD (I could see the springbar through the gap), and as good as the Rolex SubC I had for a while (I wore an Exp2 for 15 years, but it didn't have solid ends). I don't know how hard it is to machine end-links to that spec, but if it's that easy everyone should do it.

Chinese manufacturing is all over the place in quality, from low to high, so it doesn't pay to generalize. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with economics, just as with any developing economy (and any developed economy, for that matter).

Much is made of Ginault not jumping into these conversations and clearing up the questions, but it seems to me that letting the controversy boil works to keep their name in front of people and works in their favor. Much is also made of their giving discounts, though lots of companies do the same, either directly (Glycine Direct), or indirectly (via grey market dealers that acquire their inventory from AD's, I assume), without the uproar.

In any case, I don't think anyone is a shill. It would be great if ad hominem attacks would stop on these threads though, and the various issues of quality, function, and provenance could be discussed civilly.


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## DanKoR0 (Dec 4, 2015)

Jtragic said:


> You're right, it seems like it is. I'm assuming, though, that a hand winder is a bit less complicated then an auto and has less parts.
> 
> I merely quoted the off the home page, I did not delve into every movement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No worries, I'm really just learning about this now, I figured there was a good chance you knew something that I didn't. And that's a fair point about autos vs hand-winders. It's too bad that there aren't more data points for comparison.

So those that think $1300 is too cheap for a watch to possibly be made in the US (with the exception of a few movement components): What price would you believe? Is the $2000 that Weiss charges believable?


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## DanKoR0 (Dec 4, 2015)

Ugh, double post...


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

DanKoR0 said:


> Ugh, double post...


I'm not sure. Re-reading G's FAQs it seems like like more than just the predominance of the movement is claimed to be made here... it's also the case, etc. That's a lot of parts. I'm not doubting the ability to make these parts here, I mean we make things like precision aircraft parts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DanKoR0 said:


> No worries, I'm really just learning about this now, I figured there was a good chance you knew something that I didn't. And that's a fair point about autos vs hand-winders. It's too bad that there aren't more data points for comparison.
> 
> So those that think $1300 is too cheap for a watch to possibly be made in the US (with the exception of a few movement components): What price would you believe? Is the $2000 that Weiss charges believable?


Third time you ask and yet no answer...

Best regards,


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Third time you ask and yet no answer...
> 
> Best regards,


I'll take the bait. I do. Think it could probably be done, but that it leaves very little margin to support a full time business. Small batch precision manufacturing is not cheap. By their own admission that are not "in-house" manufacturing, but use several different third parties. Setup charges alone would add a significant cost.

I'm also curious as to how many have been purchased at full retail. Has anybody posting paid the full price?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Belloc said:


> ...It would be great if ad hominem attacks would stop on these threads though, and the various issues of quality, function, and provenance could be discussed civilly.


I deed, but if the company wont answer questions raised by its own marketing material, and the adherents attack anyone who asks a question, and Ginault is a sponsor and therefore protected against speculation in ways micros are not protected, dialogue is difficult.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

RNHC said:


> Other than the "melting pot" US, everywhere else in the world, a nationality is synonymous with ethnicity. Therefore, when you generalize or attribute a certain negative characteristics or traits to a nationality, you're attributing it to that ethnic group or "race" - which is the definition of prejudice or, when prejudice applied specifically to a race, racism.


I hear you that they are very tightly connected in many counties and that folks from more homogenous countries might _blend_ those concepts together. And that is the perspective you have.

But the distinction between those terms are very important in any country to help communicate meaning and intent. Thid id just as importnt in more homogenous countries: ethnic and racial groups can span across countries and every country I am aware of has ethnic minorities.

Quikie definitions: https://djaunter.com/enrich/

In any case, I would be surprised if many folk on WUS would consider blanket statements (correct or not) about "China" ignoring IP to be racist.

Thanks for sharing your perpective though, I didn't quite consider it like that before.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

Jtragic said:


> I'll take the bait. I do. Think it could probably be done, but that it leaves very little margin to support a full time business. Small batch precision manufacturing is not cheap. By their own admission that are not "in-house" manufacturing, but use several different third parties. Setup charges alone would add a significant cost.
> 
> I'm also curious as to how many have been purchased at full retail. Has anybody posting paid the full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, Weiss is doing American-made watches in a series of 200 for $2000 a pop vs RGM at $7000+. RGM has more of a hand-crafted process, accounting for the price difference I guess. No bracelets on either, American-made or otherwise.

Then there is Ginault OR, with [edit]no[/edit] advertised MOQ, Anerican made, including bracelet. For $800 cost (per a fan), $1200 asking, discount price of about $700.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

hanshananigan said:


> So, Weiss is doing American-made watches in a series of 200 for $2000 a pop vs RGM at $7000+. RGM has more of a hand-crafted process, accounting fo the price difference I guess. No bracelets on either, American-made or otherwise.
> 
> Then there is Ginault OR, with advertised MOQ, Anerican made, including bracelet. For $800 cost, $1200 asking, discount price of about $700.


Being a watch forum and essentially apolitical, its not the best place to debate philosophical definitions of racism. Its a particularly apt place to debate manufacturing issues relating to watches, of course, but how can we assess what an American-made watch should cost without knowing facts related to provenance of various components? We cant. Thus the ugliness of this thread, where unanswered questions beget challenges to prove negatives. Its poor logic and reasoning, but those who cant or wont hear it are dedicated to shouting it down. Welcome to 2017; Rome is burning and the fiddler is busy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

hwa said:


> Well, now, you've convinced me!
> 
> When you disparage Asian or "non-European" manufacturing with a broad brush, as you do, that's racist. Don't blame the messenger.





RNHC said:


> Other than the "melting pot" US, everywhere else in the world, a nationality is synonymous with ethnicity. Therefore, when you generalize or attribute a certain negative characteristics or traits to a nationality, you're attributing it to that ethnic group or "race" - which is the definition of prejudice or, when prejudice applied specifically to a race, racism.





hanshananigan said:


> I hear you that they are very tightly connected in many counties and that folks from more homogenous countries might _blend_ those concepts together. And that is the perspective you have.
> 
> But the distinction between those terms are very important in any country to help communicate meaning and intent. Thid id just as importnt in more homogenous countries: ethnic and racial groups can span across countries and every country I am aware of has ethnic minorities.
> 
> ...





hwa said:


> Being a watch forum and essentially apolitical, its not the best place to debate philosophical definitions of racism.


I agree- no debate needed.

In the interest of keeping things civil, though, I am letting you know that what you are calling racism is not racism by any Western, English-language definition.

And calling someone a racist is a Big Deal-it has a lot of punch behind it.

All to say, please consider that criticism of county is not _necessarily_ criticism of the racial or ethnic or cultural majority in that county.

For my part, when I post in the future, I'll take into consideration RHNC's comment that folks from some countries might not commonly disambiguate those concepts.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

hwa said:


> I deed, but if the company wont answer questions raised by its own marketing material, and the adherents attack anyone who asks a question, and Ginault is a sponsor and therefore protected against speculation in ways micros are not protected, dialogue is difficult.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know. It seems that the ad hominem is flowing in all directions - everyone is a shill, ignorant and with base motives (to judge from the posts).

I wouldn't say that Ginault hasn't answered the questions, just that they won't prove them or debate them.

I've heard that they're a sponsor here, though I haven't seen the ads. What protections does that afford them (serious question)?

In any case, I don't think the personal attacks are warranted, from any side, difficult as the dialogue may be.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Strmwatch (Mar 1, 2016)

Double post.


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## Strmwatch (Mar 1, 2016)

Belloc said:


> I don't know. It seems that the ad hominem is flowing in all directions - everyone is a shill, ignorant and with base motives (to judge from the posts).
> 
> I wouldn't say that Ginault hasn't answered the questions, just that they won't prove them or debate them.
> 
> ...


Best to put those 2 on ignore.

They've been bashing the brand ever since they were announced. To my knowledge, neither of them have actually owned one of the watches.

One of them has already gotten a forum vacation because of it...obviously he didn't learn.


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## hanshananigan (Apr 8, 2012)

rosborn said:


> Alright. Name one micro brand in the US, one, who is not dropping movements into watches made entirely made in a factory in Asia or some other, non-European, locale?


Just out of curiosity, why did you add "or some other, non-European, locale?" Where else other than China (or the US  ) are US-based micros manufactured?


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Off-Topic posts deleted on both sides of the argument. Come on guys.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

LOL. That escalated quickly.

What if it was just a $1200 watch that is assembled with better parts than many $2000+ watches, and said "made in nowhere" on the dial?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

92gli said:


> LOL. That escalated quickly.
> 
> What if it was just a $1200 watch that is assembled with better parts than many $2000+ watches, and said "made in nowhere" on the dial?


And did not make any claims about where they sourced their parts (e.g. gold sand lume)?

Still, they would be infringing the Glidelock patent.

Best regards,


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> And did not make any claims about where they sourced their parts (e.g. gold sand lume)?
> 
> Still, they would be infringing the Glidelock patent.
> 
> Best regards,


How's the gold sand lume? Best vintage one I have ever seen, and one of the best overall. Isn't that what matters in the end? They did a public retraction of those comments anyway.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Is Tissell infringing on the Glidelock patent too? Are you certain this is an infringement, or are simply speculating?

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Radar1 said:


> How's the gold sand lume? Best vintage one I have ever seen, and one of the best overall. Isn't that what matters in the end? They did a public retraction of those comments anyway.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


My Ginault does not have the Gold Sand Lume, but the "Smurf" one (as Ginault calls it). I am satisfied with it.

Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Radar1 said:


> Is Tissell infringing on the Glidelock patent too? Are you certain this is an infringement, or are simply speculating?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


No idea about Tissell.

Regarding Ginault, I just assumed this based on pictures from the Rolex patent. I would say that, if they are really infringing this patent, Rolex will most probably do its homework. Wouldn't you?

Best regards,


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## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Is Tissell infringing on the Glidelock patent too? Are you certain this is an infringement, or are simply speculating?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I'm not a patent attorney, but they both look identical to the Rolex Glidelock. Don't you agree?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> No idea about Tissell.
> 
> Regarding Ginault, I just assumed this based on pictures from the Rolex patent. I would say that, if they are really infringing this patent, Rolex will most probably do its homework. Wouldn't you?
> 
> Best regards,


Yes, I suspect Rolex would have made a fuss long before now. Patents can obviously expire and that may well be the case here. I am not certain.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Cigarbob said:


> I'm not a patent attorney, but they both look identical to the Rolex Glidelock. Don't you agree?


Yes it does. But that doesn't automatically imply an infringement. I honestly don't know whether it does or doesn't.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## run23 (Jul 12, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Still, they would be infringing the Glidelock patent.
> 
> Best regards,


I couldn't care less. It's Rolex's responsibility to enforce their rights, not a watch buyer playing amateur IP attorney.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

I mean let’s face it...... if you’re buying a Ginault at this point you’re PROBABLY not the kind of person who is at all bothered by blatant IP theft. The clasp is the least of it.


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## run23 (Jul 12, 2009)

mike120 said:


> I mean let's face it...... if you're buying a Ginault at this point you're PROBABLY not the kind of person who is at all bothered by blatant IP theft. The clasp is the least of it.


I bit over-the-top. We get you don't like the watch.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

run23 said:


> I bit over-the-top. We get you don't like the watch.


Lol. Not a peep against dozens of other Sub homages either. Mighty focused on one brand.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Lol. Not a peep against dozens of other Sub homages either. Mighty focused on one brand.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Show me another brand which:

1) sells a watch that you can put parts from the homaged/knocked-off brand into without modification
2) has a fan base who.... well.... really everything y'all do
3) plagiarized text about the sourcing of two parts from a fake maker AND uses parts which still fit those descriptions ( I'm sure that there are hundreds of dudes making enamel dials in the UK and gunsmiths broaching out bezels in PA though ) who sells watches knocking off the same case, dial (sans text) and bracelet
4) wraps itself up in "Made in America" when it isn't

and you you bet your bottom dollar I'll show you just as good of a time.

I'll wait, likely for a long time ;-). Then again, with how many of you guys are out there who just say "but the quality man" who really knows how far below the bottom of the barrel the WIS community can really scrape to.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I love this very selective deleting of posts. It seems those with an axe to grind against Ginault are free to do so but if anyone dares respond in kind their post is deleted. Priceless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

run23 said:


> I couldn't care less. It's Rolex's responsibility to enforce their rights, not a watch buyer playing amateur IP attorney.


I am sorry, but disagree. No company should infringe IP. Rolex has the right to act accordingly and would send the corresponding signals to the watch community.

Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mike120 said:


> Show me another brand which:
> 
> 1) sells a watch that you can put parts from the homaged/knocked-off brand into without modification


I am sincerely interested in this point. Could you, please, develop it?

Thanks in advance.

Best regards,


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## run23 (Jul 12, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I am sorry, but disagree. No company should infringe IP. Rolex has the right to act accordingly and would send the corresponding signals to the watch community.
> 
> Best regards,


My point is that I'm not going to go researching patent law to make an independent determination that one company's watch clasp is violating another company's watch clasp patent just because they look similar. If that's the case the patent holder can do that on their own and the product will be removed from the market if there is an actual infringement. As for the look of the watch, homages are clearly not violating anyones's IP. It just seems like the 'violating IP' line is an overly dramatic way to say one doesn't like homages.

Personally I'm not into homages either, but they do fit a niche in the market for someone that wants the look of a more expensive watch without paying the brand name premium and is willing to live with probably lesser quality. I actually think it's overall a good thing in that competition and choice in the market place is good for the customer and is a force to make companies more responsive to customer demand. I'd actually love it if the big name Swiss brands began to feel pressure from homages and became more customer focused (yeah, unlikely to happen, I know).

Obviously if some company that's not Rolex slapped 'Rolex' on the dial that's a different story and I don't need to be an IP attorney to know it's a rip-off of another product and I wouldn't support that in any way. But what Ginault, MKii etc are doing with their homages isn't that.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

run23 said:


> My point is that I'm not going to go researching patent law to make an independent determination that one company's watch clasp is violating another company's watch clasp patent just because they look similar. If that's the case the patent holder can do that on their own and the product will be removed from the market if there is an actual infringement. As for the look of the watch, homages are clearly not violating anyones's IP. It just seems like the 'violating IP' line is an overly dramatic way to say one doesn't like homages.
> 
> Personally I'm not into homages either, but they do fit a niche in the market for someone that wants the look of a more expensive watch without paying the brand name premium and is willing to live with probably lesser quality. I actually think it's overall a good thing in that competition and choice in the market place is good for the customer and is a force to make companies more responsive to customer demand. I'd actually love it if the big name Swiss brands began to feel pressure from homages and became more customer focused (yeah, unlikely to happen, I know).
> 
> Obviously if some company that's not Rolex slapped 'Rolex' on the dial that's a different story and I don't need to be an IP attorney to know it's a rip-off of another product and I wouldn't support that in any way. But what Ginault, MKii etc are doing with their homages isn't that.


Understand. Thanks for taking the time for sharing your point of view. I agree with your opinion about homage.

Best regards,


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

Belloc said:


> I haven't followed this from the beginning, but tuned in a few months ago when I ran across threads about the brand. I bought one at a discount and did a review, but because I liked the watch and wanted to contribute to the dialogue, not because I promised a review (which they didn't ask for at the time). I don't know anyone at the company or anything that can't be found on the internet, though I have emailed back and forth with John McMurtry several times. I'm just posting because, having read through all the Ginault threads, these arguments start up, and it seems that everyone has forgotten what has been said already.
> 
> To reiterate, for the casual reader trying to follow all this:
> 
> ...


Props for posting this, mate. And for saving me a day and a half of reading.

Damn fellas! I've seen less heated arguments at political debates than those created by this watch. Yes, it's a forum of enthusiasts, and passions can run high. Ribbing and (occasional) trash-talking come with the territory. But the sheer vitriol on display here seems grossly disproportionate to the subject matter, and well beyond what I've come to expect, and value, about WUS. So I'll second Belloc's call for bit more civility. An enthusiast community is still a _community_, after all.

Having considered the evidence presented thus and the myriad (well, really two) positions on this watch, I think I'm reasonably certain that:

1) The OR is an unabashed sub look-alike (exhibit A: thread title), probably the 367th such make/model to blaze this not-so-original (but profitable) of trails. The first one looks like a weird mash-up of three different subs--maxi dial & bracelet from the 6-digit, case from the previous (5-digit) gen, and a red hand borrowed from the Pepsi GMT. More recent photos seem to be veering toward Steinhart/Invicta levels of copycatism, mercedes tri-star hands and all.

2) Unlike a fake, there is nothing _illegal _about a look-alike, though the glide-lock on the OR bears an uncanny resemblance to one presently protected by a design patent--I'd have to see it in the flesh to confirm.

3) The OR seems to be well made and equally well regarded by those who have held one, though it bears noting that a sizable portion of reviewers were effectively paid to do so. Still, even folks who dog the watch on philosophical & ethical grounds seem to agree that it's well made. For a watch whose Raison D'être is to imitate the look & feel of another (better) watch, one could do a lot worse--the end-link gaps, bezel action, even the dial work all look and sound (in reviews) first rate.

4) The movement is definitely a 2824 clone, but I've never seen one _exactly_ like it. I've purchased/tested/timed nearly 40 movement samples in the past 18 months, including most grades of ETA 2824 and its direct clones (Sellita), dimensional clones (STP1-11), and off-patent Chinese clones (Sea-Gull), and none looks identical to the photos of the movement in the OR. I see little reason to doubt Ginault's claims about the its mish-mash of origins (Swiss springs, Chinese shock absorber, etc.), but I share the detractors concerns about just how much of this movement is truly machined here in the states, as the costs of domestic production would not be feasible at the OR's asking price (much less a 35-60% discount off the same), not without running afoul of extant FTC standards, or running at a sizable loss. This is not an opinion. Just basic labor economics.

5) Origins notwithstanding, the movement is surprisingly well dialed in. The positional variation and general timekeeping accuracy our fellow WIS have posted look mighty impressive for a watch at this price point, on par with a standard (possibly elabore) grade ETA movement from what I've seen, but _not _at the level of a modern Rolex/Tudor, GS, or Omega co-axial (nor should it be at its price). The movement finish looks a bit crude to my eyes (from photos on the website and in this thread), but the level of testing and regulation (possibly _adjustment _as well_, _does anyone actually know?) Ginault has undertaken is noteworthy, as are the timing results.

6) The "Made in America" claim on the early casebacks is false. Ginault claims to have been ignorant of FTC rules and changed the casebacks accordingly, which is fine. _But_...

7) The built/assembled in America claim on the dial and promotional materials is _also false_, as FTC does _not _distinguish between made vs. built, _per se_, but rather insists that that the origin of a product's essential components (of which a mechanical movement's main spring, hair spring, shock absorber, etc. would certainly be considered) are accurately disclosed. A cursory analysis of the recent, and by now well known, enforcement actions against Shinola, Niall, etc., make clear that Ginault continues to rely on false claims, and knowingly so. To be sure, Ginault could correct this error (much like Shinola recently did) with some fairly minor wording changes (e.g. "Assembled/Built in U.S. from Swiss/Chinese/American parts" or similar). Near as I can tell, however, they have not yet chosen to do so.

8) The dial verbiage on the OR is either a lousy attempt at caricature, or the unintended (and unfortunate) creation of a non-native English speaker. This strikes me as bad form either way, and one that only diminishes a good watch from an already questionable (and to many, marginal) genre (copycats, look-alikes, etc.).

Should we buy one? Obviously it depends. For the watch-lover who is comfortable with look-alikes (and modern sub clones in particular), _AND _is comfortable with the false origin claims and silly dial text, I think the OR is a fine choice. Personally, I have mixed feelings on the former and find the latter to be a dealbreaker, so no OR for me, at least not in its current form. The watch itself looks impressive enough. Like most of you, I could do without the lume sands from the moons of Jupiter (;-)) nonsense, but I think Ginault can be forgiven for a little marketing embellishment, particularly since the lume itself looks terrific. Indeed, the "laser focused imitation of the sub" shtick is clearly the OR's strongest suit. Had it stopped there, and been otherwise above board, across the board, I don't see how anyone who loves the sub could not also love, or at the very least, _respect_, the OR. To get _that _close to the real McCoy is a feat that scores, if not hundreds, of other watchmakers, case-makers, and micros have yet to achieve. :-!

But this is as much a question about the watchmaker as it is the watch, and therein lies the rub. The misleading made/built in America claims are simply unacceptable in their present state. The rest of the dial print, moreover, borders on absurdity. How exactly does a watch that goes to such great lengths to so faithfully, nee _lovingly,_ crib the styling and execution of the Rolex Submariner, ever leave the factory with that cringe-inducing gibberish printed on the dial? As I stated above, there are two possibilities: satire or ineptitude. The former is highly unlikely at best. Not only does it make ZERO sense for Ginault, of all companies, to willfully _ridicule_ its own idol, it is an affront to the art of parody to suggest that their efforts here are a _deliberate _attempt at humor. If my goal is to satirize Rolex's dial text, I'm going with "Lobster Perpetual" or "Clam-shell Infinitum" or any number of similar spoofs that make clear I'm both "in the know" and having a good time with it. But something like "Kinetic Continuous"? Something that bad can ONLY be funny by accident. In other words, Ginault was genuinely trying to capture the spirit and content of the Rolex dial text, and this was simply the best they could come up with.

Now I don't know any of the principles or employees at Ginault, so I can't speak to their backgrounds and motivations. What I _can _tell you is that the OR dial reads more like bad "Chinese English" ad copy than anything I would expect to come from a crew of American machinists or tool and dye makers that allegedly spent spent five years sorting out the bezel action and other technical details of this watch. I cannot say for sure, of course, but I'd kindly ask any supporter of the brand to tell me in what version of reality this Ginault origin story comes even close to passing the "sniff test."


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

While there may be some merit to the criticisms of the OR haters on WUS (as well as with the criticism leveled on many other homage watch makers), I think it's kind of ridiculous that it's impossible for the owners who love the watch to discuss the watch without the haters coming in to every. single. thread. and spreading the hate.

Go create your own anti-Ginault thread and have a circle-jerk over how morally outraged you are over the Ocean Rover among yourselves.

Or maybe you could even start a Facebook group. After all, echo-chambers seem to work well in building an anti movement these days.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I am sincerely interested in this point. Could you, please, develop it?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Best regards,


This was discussed at some length on another thread where the same 5 or 6 axe grinders showed up to repeat the same complaints voiced here.

The issue is the steel movement holder holding in the Ginault 2824-2 copy movement is secured to the using twist lock tabs which fit into slots in the watch case.

The Rolex 3135 movement is larger in diameter than a 2824-2. The 3135 does not use a separate movement holder and instead uses twist lock tabs on the movement itself which lock the movement into the case.

If you remove the Ginault movement and movement holder, you could potentially drop in an authentic 3135.

That said, you could also simple drop in an authentic 2824-2 for significantly less money. (Although you would have to put an H-4 size pinion on the 2824-2 as they normally come with an H-2. The H-4 is needed to achieve the proper hand height).

IMO the Ginault is no different than any number of dozens homage watches out there. You can't love on a MKii and hate on a Ginault.

Was their marketing language overly embellished? Certainly. Was the "Made in America" a misstep? Sure. Can you compare Ginault to the Shinola fiasco? No, not in my opinion. Shinola is a significant sized company owned by a multi brand holding company (same corporate owner as Filson). They have enough lawyers on staff to know better. Ginault (at best) is a few guys operating out of a spare bedroom. I believe it was an honest mistake. I also believe the Ginault is a heck of a lot more "Made in America" than most "affordable" "Swiss Made" watches are actually made in Switzerland.

If you've ever made or bought a Seiko mod intended to mimic a more expensive model, yet bash Ginault, you are a hypocrite IMO. If you bash Ginault yet owned an Invicta (for example) you are a hypocrite.

Lots of pots calling kettles black in these threads.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

WastedYears said:


> While there may be some merit to the criticisms of the OR haters on WUS (as well as with the criticism leveled on many other homage watch makers), I think it's kind of ridiculous that it's impossible for the owners who love the watch to discuss the watch without the haters coming in to every. single. thread. and spreading the hate.
> 
> Go create your own anti-Ginault thread and have a circle-jerk over how morally outraged you are over the Ocean Rover among yourselves.
> 
> Or maybe you could even start a Facebook group. After all, echo-chambers seem to work well in building an anti movement these days.


Spot on. For the same handful off offenders it is so far past dogma at this point. It indicates something wrong at a deeper level. Obsession, compulsion... all come to mind.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Purple Hayz said:


> Props for posting this, mate. And for saving me a day and a half of reading.
> 
> Damn fellas! I've seen less heated arguments at political debates than those created by this watch. Yes, it's a forum of enthusiasts, and passions can run high. Ribbing and (occasional) trash-talking come with the territory. But the sheer vitriol on display here seems grossly disproportionate to the subject matter, and well beyond what I've come to expect, and value, about WUS. So I'll second Belloc's call for bit more civility. An enthusiast community is still a _community_, after all.
> 
> ...


Well done. I wonder where the sentiment would be if not for the marketing claims.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> This was discussed at some length on another thread where the same 5 or 6 axe grinders showed up to repeat the same complaints voiced here.
> 
> The issue is the steel movement holder holding in the Ginault 2824-2 copy movement is secured to the using twist lock tabs which fit into slots in the watch case.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the explanation!

Appreciate it.

Best regards,


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Without quoting Purple Hayz's text, I actually agree on many of their observations. I think the text on the OR dial and the clasp are two of the weakest design elements of the watch itself. The clasp is too close to the Rolex for my preference, so I wear my example on a NATO. 

That said, this same clasp (or similar) is used by a few other brands and widely available on EBay, so I must assume it is deifferent enough from the Rolex design to pass legal review. (It is the responsibility of the patent holder to enforce their design IP rights. Rolex has historically been very aggressive in this regard. They have a legal team devoted to it.)

The text on the dial I believe is a crib of the 16660. In both cases you have the logo, then a single word brand name, then the case and/or movement type above the pinion. 

Below the the pinion you have 4 lines of text with model, then depth rating, then a couple lines of "features". 

If I were to offer an improvement suggestion to Ginault, it would be to simplify the text on the dial to simply logo and brand name above the pinion and model name and depth rating below. The enamel OR dial is actually quite decent. The extra text does nothing to enhance it. 

FWIW, I have the same suggestion for the Pelagos. No one needs a wall of text on a dial.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> Well done. I wonder where the sentiment would be if not for the marketing claims.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


JT, I think you know that the Brotherhood would embrace the Ginault but for the marketing claims. The MKII Kingston is a particular favorite; Steiny and NTH are well-loved, as are Tissells, Davosas, Tiger Concepts, Franken Subs, modded Seikos and Invictas, etc etc etc.

Ironically, it's the BS that diminishes the Ginault in the eyes of many of the brothers of BSHT. Turns it from "awesome" to "guilty pleasure" or worse. It's got nothing to do with the design; indeed it's in spite of the design and build quality.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

hwa said:


> JT, I think you know that the Brotherhood would embrace the Ginault but for the marketing claims. The MKII Kingston is a particular favorite; Steiny and NTH are well-loved, as are Tissells, Davosas, Tiger Concepts, Franken Subs, modded Seikos and Invictas, etc etc etc.
> 
> Ironically, it's the BS that diminishes the Ginault in the eyes of many of the brothers of BSHT. Turns it from "awesome" to "guilty pleasure" or worse. It's got nothing to do with the design; indeed it's in spite of the design and build quality.


I guess it's because I was aware going into it that I don't feel as bad, I accept it for what it is as opposed to what it claims to be. Will that always be the case? I don't know...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Jtragic said:


> Well done. I wonder where the sentiment would be if not for the marketing claims.





hwa said:


> I think you know that the Brotherhood would embrace the Ginault but for the marketing claims.


Absolutely right. I'd have thought that we finally have a homage that would rival the quality of MKII (except for the gibberish on the dial) at a better price.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> Is Tissell infringing on the Glidelock patent too? Are you certain this is an infringement, or are simply speculating?





Radar1 said:


> Yes, I suspect Rolex would have made a fuss long before now. Patents can obviously expire and that may well be the case here. I am not certain.


Rolex apparently not doing anything probably is not a matter of will but may have to do with Western companies' difficulty with enforcing IP in China, where Ginault's unbranded bracelet was likely made. I wouldn't be surprised if Tisell got their "Glidelock" bracelet from the same Chinese source. As to Glidelock patent expiration. From another thread:



mleok said:


> The Glidelock clasp is covered by two patents, one from 2006 and another from 2008. The patent protection period is 20 years, so it is not yet in the public domain.


Surprised that none of your "boys" answered that for you since they also participated in that particular thread.


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

A few things to add/respond. I own the blue bezel date version and am extremely happy with it. It is the most comfortable, well-balanced watch I've owned. It looks great and for the last few days wear it's been accurate to within a second of GMT. 

The clasp is wonderful especially the glidelock as my wrist tends to swell during the day. If that is a rip of a Rolex patent, that's an issue for Rolex and Ginault not me.

I don't mind the writing on the dial at all. The only line really legible to me without reading glasses is the first ... "Ginault". I really like the red second hand BTW.

Someone asserted that many or most reviewers are effectively paid to review it. I got a 40% reduction. The price for me delivered to Scotland was about £680. That's still a fair chunk of money to me. At the full price the watch would have probably been off my radar and if I was spending the full £1000ish I would have gone with a mid-priced safe bet. Don't tell me I've been paid to be positive about the watch.

Owners are praising the watch for its quality, design and timekeeping. I don't think many will have paid the full advertised price for their watches, but then the same is true of most things we buy. 

If I get a nice whisky when it's on special (as I did today) am I being paid to praise it? No I'm probably just enjoying something of a higher quality than I would normally have bought, because it drifted into my acceptable pricing. 

I'm going to unsubscribe from this and other threads pertinent to the Ginault. These helped me enormously in making my decision to purchase, but now I find much of the discussion petty in the least and sometimes quite enraging. We need to remember, even on a watch forum, that this is just a watch.

Bye ...

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mike120 said:


> Show me another brand which:
> 
> 1) sells a watch that you can put parts from the homaged/knocked-off brand into without modification





GarbanzoNegro said:


> I am sincerely interested in this point. Could you, please, develop it?


It was a while ago but, IIRC, someone took a pretty accurate measurements of Ginault Ocean Rover case and found it to be identical to Rolex 16610 case to the point where the parts were interchangeable. I don't know of any other Submariner homage cases where the parts were interchangeable with the real thing. This and other circumstantial items like verbiage, etc. are what keeps bringing up connection to a fake maker.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And there were also multiple bannings of at least one particularly aggressive and nasty member. I think that speaks volumes in the context of the true agenda here.

Great watches. I am sure every owner will continue to enjoy them to the fullest.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Quick question. Are there any aftermarket ceramic bezel insert replacements?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I recall some infractions, too, or have you forgotten?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ginseng108 said:


> Quick question. Are there any aftermarket ceramic bezel insert replacements?


That would be nice. 

Best regards,


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Watch is a masterclass in terms of build quality. I have no regrets about defending it or the company against the relentless pathological attacks - which sadly, still persist after all this time. I would have thought that people's lives might have moved on to more important and valuable things.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Reading through all the negative speculation, I can’t decide if the makers are supposed to be genius ex-con machinists or slavering catalog point-and-shooters. As a former linguist who speaks one Eastern and three Western languages (other than English), all the Ginault ad-copy seems non-native, but Western, not Eastern. But this tells us nothing about where the watches are made or assembled. It’s just more speculation with several interpretations.

I get that lots of people take offense at all this. I personally get slightly put off by the Swiss standard, which is carefully written to give the appearance of Swiss-ness while allowing practically everything but assembly outside of Switzerland. I’m simply not sure what I’m getting when a buy a lower-end Swiss piece, and claims of heritage can ring hollow. But I still like them, and buy them, and judge them on their merits. And it would be a real bummer for me if every Glycine, Fortis, or Mido thread consisted mainly of people trying to disprove their Swiss claims.

The anti- points have been made, heard, considered, and maybe even investigated (I certainly have) many, many times. I don’t see how repeating the same assumptions and accusations gets us any closer to knowing anything new. Perhaps the suggestion above could be considered, and the people that like the watch could be left alone to ooh and aah, and the people that dislike the company (or the watch) could make a thread to express their incredulity and contempt, maybe even collect useful information and evidence. That could be interesting. 


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Belloc said:


> Reading through all the negative speculation, I can't decide if the makers are supposed to be genius ex-con machinists or slavering catalog point-and-shooters. As a former linguist who speaks one Eastern and three Western languages (other than English), all the Ginault ad-copy seems non-native, but Western, not Eastern. But this tells us nothing about where the watches are made or assembled. It's just more speculation with several interpretations.
> 
> I get that lots of people take offense at all this. I personally get slightly put off by the Swiss standard, which is carefully written to give the appearance of Swiss-ness while allowing practically everything but assembly outside of Switzerland. I'm simply not sure what I'm getting when a buy a lower-end Swiss piece, and claims of heritage can ring hollow. But I still like them, and buy them, and judge them on their merits. And it would be a real bummer for me if every Glycine, Fortis, or Mido thread consisted mainly of people trying to disprove their Swiss claims.
> 
> ...


Perfect solution. Let's see if the naysayers can take it somewhere else and have a hatefest without trying to poison this thread, and constantly envenomate the people who like the watches and excellent customer service - and would like to be able to do so in peace. Seems to me this thread was ticking along very nicely after an ugly start until the same three members showed up at the door again.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ginseng108 said:


> Quick question. Are there any aftermarket ceramic bezel insert replacements?


Any aftermarket bezel insert that will fit Rolex 16610 will fit Ginault. Ginault case is an exact copy of Rolex.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-hit-bezel-4574169-2.html#post44566133


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Belloc said:


> And it would be a real bummer for me if every Glycine, Fortis, or Mido thread consisted mainly of people trying to disprove their Swiss claims.


Why would we? Glycine, Fortis, or Mido have never come on WUS and made preposterous BS claims about its components and manufacturing process.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Purple Hayz said:


> More recent photos seem to be veering toward Steinhart/Invicta levels of copycatism, mercedes tri-star hands and all.


The tri-star hand was an after-market hand change by one particular Ginault owner.



Purple Hayz said:


> The "Made in America" claim on the early casebacks is false.


For me, "false" is much too strong a word here. "Not in accord with US FTC rules" is more accurate. Switzerland's rules for "Swiss made" are much looser, yet we don't go around saying "false" about watches with substantial foreign parts and "Swiss made" on the dial.

My own opinion is that the super-stringent FTC rules harm American manufacturers. For example, Weiss very credibly makes an entire watch (case, crystal, dial, hands, movement) in the US, with the only foreign parts being the jewels, mainspring, and hairspring, and yet this is too much foreign content to qualify as "made in US" according to the FTC.

I'm agnostic on Ginault's claims for sourcing the movement parts in the US (with the same exceptions as Weiss), since the price seems too low to support this, but I've not seen any _actual evidence _that shows other provenance.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Radar1 said:


> And there were also multiple bannings of at least one particularly aggressive and nasty member. I think that speaks volumes in the context of the true agenda here.





hwa said:


> I recall some infractions, too, or have you forgotten?


Too funny. Radar1 is a classic case of projection.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Lol. Glycine, Fortis, or Mido (and many others) get to hide behind dubious regulations with regards to Swiss content. Why doesn't someone try asking them to detail specifically where every component in the movements and watches comes from? You'd get crickets, but it's still "Swiss Made", right? Witch hunt here? You betcha.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

RNHC said:


> Why would we? Glycine, Fortis, or Mido have never come on WUS and made preposterous BS claims about its components and manufacturing process.


No, the Swiss government makes the standard which allows the deception without their saying a word. But we don't see them breaking down the percentages, on WUS or anywhere else.

But again, this point has been made innumerable times here, in this thread and others, for months. Must it be repeated until the oohing and aahing are crushed and the threads abandoned or closed?

Those who want to hear it have heard it. Those who don't are unable to have a discussion about the watches without constantly defending them. This is a Ginault Lovers thread. A Ginault Questioners thread would be the right place for those who wish to exhaustively examine the company and its claims. And as I said, it might even come up with something interesting. And if a Lover chimed in there, he would have no cause for complaint.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Belloc said:


> Those who want to hear it have heard it. Those who don't are unable to have a discussion about the watches without constantly defending them. This is a Ginault Lovers thread. A Ginault Questioners thread would be the right place for those who wish to exhaustively examine the company and its claims. And as I said, it might even come up with something interesting. And if a Lover chimed in there, he would have no cause for complaint.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well actually this was a thread started by the company for the purpose of discussing the watch, which by extension includes the company. This is not an enthusiast thread that was crashed.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> Well actually this was a thread started by the company for the purpose of discussing the watch, which by extension includes the company. This is not an enthusiast thread that was crashed.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


There is no thread where this logic doesn't apply, regardless of who started it, and most Ginault threads end up here. Again, same points made by the same people to the same effect. There ends up being no place for the enthusiast without wading through reams of animosity, which is the point, I get it: enthusiasts for this watch don't deserve to enthuse in peace. The watch is garbage, or impossibly good; the enthusiasts are idiots or collaborators in evil; the company is comprised of genius con-men, unreformed replica-makers, or idiot foreigners. Got it. Is there any new information to add to these points? I would be interested in new information.

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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> Well actually this was a thread started by the company for the purpose of discussing the watch, which by extension includes the company. This is not an enthusiast thread that was crashed.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


It also evolved long ago into primarily an owner's thread.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Belloc said:


> There is no thread where this logic doesn't apply, regardless of who started it, and most Ginault threads end up here. Again, same points made by the same people to the same effect. There ends up being no place for the enthusiast without wading through reams of animosity, which is the point, I get it: enthusiasts for this watch don't deserve to enthuse in peace. The watch is garbage, or impossibly good; the enthusiasts are idiots or collaborators in evil; the company is comprised of genius con-men, unreformed replica-makers, or idiot foreigners. Got it. Is there any new information to add to these points? I would be interested in new information.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Again, I suppose if this was started as an enthusiasts thread, I can understand the anger of those that support the brand against those that don't. I agree that there's no reason to threadcrap on a thread designed to talk about the virtues of the brand. Start your own thread for that.

But, when the brand starts the thread for the express purpose of promoting the brand, they get what they get. Frankly speaking, if I'm considering getting the watch, I'd want all viewpoints and try to make my own decisions. There's no reason to shout down either side unless something is said that is demonstrably false. But to levy a claim false because you don't believe it, without empirical evidence to the contrary, is not fair to the discussion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> Again, I suppose if this was started as an enthusiasts thread, I can understand the anger of those that support the brand against those that don't. I agree that there's no reason to threadcrap on a thread designed to talk about the virtues of the brand. Start your own thread for that.
> 
> But, when the brand starts the thread for the express purpose of promoting the brand, they get what they get. Frankly speaking, if I'm considering getting the watch, I'd want all viewpoints and try to make my own decisions. There's no reason to shout down either side unless something is said that is demonstrably false. But to levy a claim false because you don't believe it, without empirical evidence to the contrary, is not fair to the discussion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So no new information?

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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Belloc said:


> So no new information?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually, if you want new information, an answer to the big question that everyone asks lies within this thread and the other large Ginault thread. All you need is google, some "'s and the AND operator. I found it using this method. Others can too.

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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

WoW, I completely abandoned this thread after I got my Ginault. 200 pages of crazy, arguing about nothing, well it's at least it must be therapeutic for some of you, I quit smoking on pointless threads like this! :-d

Almost a year later I still get my Ginault out and just stare at it, compare it to my Omegas, Breitlings, Tags, gen Roly's and it still an amazing watch to behold.

I purchased mine early with the Made in USA case-back and I'm keeping it that way, If the guys at Ginault took the time to have all those parts spec built to the very high standards they are clearly built too and put it together I am happy to call it made in USA, if for no other reason than it's easier to print on a case back than "assembled from parts from China and the USA in a basement in wherever"

I also purchased my Ginault certain in the belief that the case set and dial came from very well respected Chinese makers who are known for their precision and quality in small runs. If it turns out that any of the parts are actually made in the USA I will be equally happy but I see every watchmakers marketing materials with complete transparency for the embellished overpraised fluff that it is and not a factor in my purchasing decisions and since I can't wear marketing materials and they don't tell time either it's pretty easy to dismiss 200 pages of nothing as just that. 

My Ginault remains one of my favorite purchases of 2017.

Sure I would love to see Ginault take a do-over and exercise a lot more truth in advertising it wouldn't hurt with a product as good as they make and honesty is always the best approach.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

OldeCrow said:


> WoW, I completely abandoned this thread after I got my Ginault. 200 pages of crazy, arguing about nothing, well it's at least it must be therapeutic for some of you, I quit smoking on pointless threads like this! :-d
> 
> Almost a year later I still get my Ginault out and just stare at it, compare it to my Omegas, Breitlings, Tags, gen Roly's and it still an amazing watch to behold.
> 
> ...


And that's the thing... I too bought mine with my eyes wide open about the claims, and the provenance. I've said and defended that at the price I paid, I could not find a better quality sub homage.

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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Well said, OldeCrow. You've been around a long time and I respect your opinion. 

My two favorite purchases of 2017 are my Ginault and my Seiko 62 MAS reissue LE. The Ginault is my surf and ski watch and the Seiko has become my everything else watch. 

In my opinion, the Ginault lume is the most well executed "aged" lume I've seen done from any brand bar none. The fact the bezel pip matches is an impressive detail.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I, too, purchased my Ginault fully aware of the controversy surrounding the brand. I am still impressed with the watch and still love it. As I have stated previously, I wear mine 24/7, except when showering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> I, too, purchased my Ginault fully aware of the controversy surrounding the brand. I am still impressed with the watch and still love it. As I have stated previously, I wear mine 24/7, except when showering.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Think these guys would have pounded on this dead horse for so long if it wasn't such an impressive (read threatening) piece?? I don't.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> Think these guys would have pounded on this dead horse for so long if it wasn't such an impressive (read threatening) piece?? I don't./QUOTE]
> 
> I agree with you. I also believe that, were a Ginault representative to come on the forum and answer every question posed to them, these guys still would not believe the Ginault representative. Bottom line is...I don't need these naysayers to be convinced of the quality of these watches, especially since they don't even own one. I am convinced of the quality of my watch and that's all that really matters to me. I just don't see myself ever selling this watch even if I were to find out that every claim Ginault is a sham. That's because I don't believe I could find a finer watch for what I paid for mine.
> 
> Furthermore, after reading some information on early to mid 20th century North American watchmakers, I am thoroughly convinced that Ginault is doing the very same thing they did, in much the same manner. Those watches were not entirely North American manufactured either. Truthfully, that information made my decision for me.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> Radar1 said:
> 
> 
> > Think these guys would have pounded on this dead horse for so long if it wasn't such an impressive (read threatening) piece?? I don't./QUOTE]
> ...


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> Actually, if you want new information, an answer to the big question that everyone asks lies within this thread and the other large Ginault thread. All you need is google, some "'s and the AND operator. I found it using this method. Others can too.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it's already in the thread, it's not new. Regardless, it's been a few months since I read the earlier posts so I don't remember everything, but I don't remember any definitive answers. A couple of people were kind enough to suggest doing what you suggest by searching, but again, I find nothing definitive. One gave a link to another forum talking about the aforementioned maker's pieces being the best, but that his pieces were handmade, not volume produced like some others, which makes it seem less likely, not more, that he's behind it, to me anyway.

In any case, I'm not against new, interesting discussion, just against every "Hey, here's my watch at the beach!" being met with "That watch is crap, and you're conspiring with criminals by wearing it!" I guess people have the right to do that, but it's tiresome. Of course, every "It's tiresome" is met with, "Well, if the company was more transparent, maybe their slavish fanboys wouldn't have to spend so much time defending them!" so I guess I'm wasting my breath asking for civility and something new.

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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

rosborn said:


> I love this very selective deleting of posts. It seems those with an axe to grind against Ginault are free to do so but if anyone dares respond in kind their post is deleted. Priceless.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I deleted posts on both sides of the argument many times. Also the posts that were deleted were off topic. If you feel there is an issue report me and I'll discuss with other mods. Until then keep these posts to yourself.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Belloc said:


> In any case, I'm not against new, interesting discussion, just against every "Hey, here's my watch at the beach!" being met with "That watch is crap, and you're conspiring with criminals by wearing it!" I guess people have the right to do that, but it's tiresome. Of course, every "It's tiresome" is met with, "Well, if the company was more transparent, maybe their slavish fanboys wouldn't have to spend so much time defending them!" so I guess I'm wasting my breath asking for civility and something new.


But it's really not your job to shut these naysayers down...that's the job of the moderators. The moderators need to do a better job of moderating. The rules of the forum specify that participants be nice to each other. I really think, going forward, the moderators need to strictly enforce the forum rules on this thread. Where does this begin and end? I think you have to be an owner to contribute negative comments. Hearsay cannot be allowed. If you are an owner that got a lemon and have done EVERYTHING to resolve the issue then your complaints are legitimate. However, if you are speculating about the sourcing of the parts or the quality of the watch then without ever having owned or held a Ginault then your tripe is not allowed, unless it isn't tripe and you are genuinely interested in purchasing a Ginault.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Quicksilver said:


> I deleted posts on both sides of the argument many times. Also the posts that were deleted were off topic. If you feel there is an issue report me and I'll discuss with other mods. Until then keep these posts to yourself.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Please accept my apology. I am sorry. I realize moderating is tough but there sure does seem to be a lot more coming from one side, those hating Ginault, than the other side, those who own and appreciate their Ginault watches. I readily admit being pushed over the edge and being uncivil; however, if the garbage posts hadn't happened in the first place it is highly unlikely I would have responded at all. Unfortunately, we, who own and appreciate Ginaults, are left to defend not only Ginault but also our decision to purchase one.


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

rosborn said:


> Please accept my apology. I am sorry. I realize moderating is tough but there sure does seem to be a lot more coming from one side, those hating Ginault, than the other side, those who own and appreciate their Ginault watches. I readily admit being pushed over the edge and being uncivil; however, if the garbage posts hadn't happened in the first place it is highly unlikely I would have responded at all. Unfortunately, we, who own and appreciate Ginaults, are left to defend not only Ginault but also our decision to purchase one.


I see that any nay sayers are met with just as many posts against them so it is pretty even. If you look back both posters on each side were asked to take a time out. I think it was best for both the thread and them. 
I believe in lively debates up to a point but when u are driving the same tired argument over and over again of course there will be venom in return (again from both sides). 
Discuss the company. Discuss the watch. Discuss the clasp. Discuss the dial. Discuss the movement. Just leave the personal snark and attacks out. It's pretty simple.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Belloc said:


> If it's already in the thread, it's not new. Regardless, it's been a few months since I read the earlier posts so I don't remember everything, but I don't remember any definitive answers. A couple of people were kind enough to suggest doing what you suggest by searching, but again, I find nothing definitive. One gave a link to another forum talking about the aforementioned maker's pieces being the best, but that his pieces were handmade, not volume produced like some others, which makes it seem less likely, not more, that he's behind it, to me anyway.
> 
> In any case, I'm not against new, interesting discussion, just against every "Hey, here's my watch at the beach!" being met with "That watch is crap, and you're conspiring with criminals by wearing it!" I guess people have the right to do that, but it's tiresome. Of course, every "It's tiresome" is met with, "Well, if the company was more transparent, maybe their slavish fanboys wouldn't have to spend so much time defending them!" so I guess I'm wasting my breath asking for civility and something new.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The information I suggest has not been put together insofar as I have read.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Jtragic said:


> The information I suggest has not been put together insofar as I have read.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can you share some links?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Quicksilver said:


> I believe in lively debates up to a point but when u are driving the same tired argument over and over again of course there will be venom in return (again from both sides).
> Discuss the company. Discuss the watch. Discuss the clasp. Discuss the dial. Discuss the movement. Just leave the personal snark and attacks out. It's pretty simple.


This.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> The information I suggest has not been put together insofar as I have read.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I apologize - I understood you to mean that the answer to the "big question" was further up the thread.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> ...The ginault is great and personally i love the somewhat nonesense text on the dial. Its very try hard but makes me chuckle. I love it, its like how the USA made spyderco knives will say Golden CO, USA EARTH. Hilarious on a well made product.


Something of a false equivalence, methinks. The analogue would be a spydy that reads "Mechanical Precision Cutting Device" or something similar ;-)

Still, props for making me look, and sure enough you were right. Being perfectly honest though, I'm usually glancing at this side of my blades before deciding which one to carry for the day.

Best steel for the money, IMO. I've back cut coped joints with it, sliced through sheet after sheet of emery cloth, and hacked through thousands of zip ties, boxes, etc, and it'll still shave a patch off my arm without knicking the skin. Love the spydercos....



run23 said:


> Personally I'm not into homages either, but they do fit a niche in the market for someone that wants the look of a more expensive watch without paying the brand name premium and is willing to live with probably lesser quality. I actually think it's overall a good thing in that competition and choice in the market place is good for the customer and is a force to make companies more responsive to customer demand. I'd actually love it if the big name Swiss brands began to feel pressure from homages and became more customer focused (yeah, unlikely to happen, I know).
> 
> Obviously if some company that's not Rolex slapped 'Rolex' on the dial that's a different story and I don't need to be an IP attorney to know it's a rip-off of another product and I wouldn't support that in any way. But what Ginault, MKii etc are doing with their homages isn't that.


This is complex issue for me (as I imagine it is for others). I'm not sure where I stand, or even if I _can _stand firmly on one side or the other. I do have a few concerns/questions about your argument, however.

First, describing the business models of Rolex vs. Ginaualt, Steinhart, etc. as "competition" strikes me as questionable at best. The Rolling Stones make music. Damn good music, IMO. Making good music requires a tremendous amount of artistry, creativity, and originality. A tribute band like Satisfaction requires NONE of these qualities. They need only source material to copy, and enough skill to copy it. In this light, the mere suggestion that the OR is "millimeters from Rolex" (as a reviewer posted earlier) is, frankly, _absurd_, because the premise on which the comparison is based is absurd. No reasonable person would compare an iconic rock band to their coffee house tribute band. To treat both as if they were "just two bands" is to engage in a ridiculous exercise--one that cannot be undertaken without purposefully ignoring the gulf between the efforts required to create something beautiful, and to simply copy that beautiful creation. Add to this already arguably unfair scenario one in which the cover band also:

A) pays no royalties to the original artists (since industrial design cannot, technically, be copyrighted)
B) performs remixes and mash-ups of the artist's "greatest hits" (splash of Sub-C, dash of 5-digit, etc.)
C) deliberately or carelessly mangles the "lyrics" (dial print) of the very artist whose work they profit from

If Satisfaction did this to the Stones, _why shouldn't _we call them out? Or find it troubling if a Satisfaction apologist's only "defense" was something along the lines of "yeah Satisfaction may have some shady business practices, but I love the Stones signature sound and the lead singer of Satisfaction channels vintage Jagger almost as good as the man himself! Plus there's no way I'm dropping $200 for _real _Stones tickets when I can see Satisfaction on pub night for just a $10 cover charge!)

Second, to your point about a look-alike vs. a fake, how much space is there between these two camps in substantive, practical terms? Is the official WUS position that this little gem from Beijing Motors is a "homage?"









But the version that ships with the $20 BMW decal/emblem "upgrade" is a fake?

Now I know the Ginault is not _that _blatant, but even the _Land Wind_ isn't a dead ringer for the (Range Rover) Evoque, after all









How does one reasonably justify a Ginault without doing the same for this pretender? I'm genuinely curious about what folks have to say about this. It feels like "cheating" on some level, if I'm being honest...

On the other hand, the Rolling Stones themselves were a cover band once! Hell, they wouldn't even have that _name _if not for a couple of black fellas named Muddy Waters and Willie Dixon. Likewise, the anti-homage purists tend to be a _little _selective with the targets of their derision, no? I marvel at the brass it takes to slam the OR as a pretender while exalting the "legendary" and "iconic" Speedy Pro, which bears _no resemblance whatsoever_ to the Rodania Geometer that predated it by several years.:roll:









Omega even "homaged" the "jack and the beans" index at 12 o'clock! :-d

Like I said, this love/hate thing with lookalikes is murky as hell. Every answer raises more questions.



Jtragic said:


> Well done. I wonder where the sentiment would be if not for the marketing claims. Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


I can't speak for others, but I know where my sentiment, and pocketbook, would be if Ginault cleaned up the dial and the origin claims, and at least explained what's going on with the bracelet. I'm already leaning toward adding a 5-digit sub no-date to the stable (dislike the fat lugs on the sub-c). To not bring the OR along for the ride would be like passing on my avatar's cover of _Watchtower_, which I will readily admit to liking more than Dylan's original. b-)



Swayndo said:


> ...The clasp is wonderful especially the glidelock as my wrist tends to swell during the day. If that is a rip of a Rolex patent, that's an issue for Rolex and Ginault not me.





Radar1 said:


> I am convinced of the quality of my watch and that's all that really matters to me. I just don't see myself ever selling this watch even if I were to find out that every claim Ginault is a sham. That's because I don't believe I could find a finer watch for what I paid for mine.


Precisely the type of unreflective, morally ambiguous attitude that fuels much of the negativity surrounding this watch and its blind faithful, I suspect. A watch purchase is a choice, gentlemen. And choice, as you know, is but preference revealed.

Some of us _prefer_, on principle, not to buy from the guy who's wares "fell out of a truck," no matter how nice they look, or how cheaply they can be had. I am certain that Ginault could pick up considerably more buyers by expanding beyond the demographic whose purchase motives consist of "is it pretty?" and "can I afford it?"



Belloc said:


> Reading through all the negative speculation, I can't decide if the makers are supposed to be genius ex-con machinists or slavering catalog point-and-shooters. As a former linguist who speaks one Eastern and three Western languages (other than English), all the Ginault ad-copy seems non-native, but Western, not Eastern. But this tells us nothing about where the watches are made or assembled. It's just more speculation with several interpretations.


Indeed, sir.



Avo said:


> The tri-star hand was an after-market hand change by one particular Ginault owner.


Good to know, as this raises my opinion of the OR



Avo said:


> For me, "false" is much too strong a word here. "Not in accord with US FTC rules" is more accurate. Switzerland's rules for "Swiss made" are much looser, yet we don't go around saying "false" about watches with substantial foreign parts and "Swiss made" on the dial. My own opinion is that the super-stringent FTC rules harm American manufacturers. For example, Weiss very credibly makes an entire watch (case, crystal, dial, hands, movement) in the US, with the only foreign parts being the jewels, mainspring, and hairspring, and yet this is too much foreign content to qualify as "made in US" according to the FTC.


Semantics, mate. I don't disagree with your read on the US. vs. Swiss standards, or with the burden it places on would-be U.S. watchmakers. But for those of who know the U.S. standards, it's not unreasonable to expect companies to adhere to them if they want to pitch the "made here" angle.



Jtragic said:


> But, when the brand starts the thread for the express purpose of promoting the brand, they get what they get. Frankly speaking, if I'm considering getting the watch, I'd want all viewpoints and try to make my own decisions. There's no reason to shout down either side unless something is said that is demonstrably false. But to levy a claim false because you don't believe it, without empirical evidence to the contrary, is not fair to the discussion


Well said.



Radar1 said:


> Think these guys would have pounded on this dead horse for so long if it wasn't such an impressive (read threatening) piece?? I don't.


Just what "threat" does this watch pose? And to whom/what does it do so? I don't follow.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Purple Hayz said:


> Something of a false equivalence, methinks. The analogue would be a spydy that reads "Mechanical Precision Cutting Device" or something similar ;-)
> 
> Still, props for making me look, and sure enough you were right. Being perfectly honest though, I'm usually glancing at this side of my blades before deciding which one to carry for the day.
> 
> ...


Very interesting comparison using music bands. Super well written but there is something id like to add on top of this. In the review where the OP pointed out the Ocean Rover is mm away from the Rolex Sub i believe he is referring to the quality and craftsmanship that went into Ginault's OR. I think a better anology would be comparing a group of 10 bands covering the same iconic song by RS. There are bound to be bands that do better jobs than the other bands. And maybe out of these bands, one would give an amazing and most memorible performance out of them all. And the Ginaul Ocean Rover is just this band giving the most excellent performance through their demonstration in quality and craftsmanship comparing to other sub par homages floating around this vast ocean.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> Very interesting comparison using music bands. Super well written but there is something id like to add on top of this. In the review where the OP pointed out the Ocean Rover is mm away from the Rolex Sub i believe he is referring to the quality and craftsmanship that went into Ginault's OR. I think a better anology would be comparing a group of 10 bands covering the same iconic song by RS. There are bound to be bands that do better jobs than the other bands. And maybe out of these bands, one would give an amazing and most memorible performance out of them all. And the Ginaul Ocean Rover is just this band giving the most excellent performance through their demonstration in quality and craftsmanship comparing to other sub par homages floating around this vast ocean.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


And to be honest i think this aspect (supreme quality) of Sub homage is what many of us WIS been craving and finally had our prayers answered when Ginault came out with the Ocean Rover.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

rosborn said:


> But it's really not your job to shut these naysayers down...that's the job of the moderators. The moderators need to do a better job of moderating. The rules of the forum specify that participants be nice to each other. I really think, going forward, the moderators need to strictly enforce the forum rules on this thread. Where does this begin and end? I think you have to be an owner to contribute negative comments. Hearsay cannot be allowed. If you are an owner that got a lemon and have done EVERYTHING to resolve the issue then your complaints are legitimate. However, if you are speculating about the sourcing of the parts or the quality of the watch then without ever having owned or held a Ginault then your tripe is not allowed, unless it isn't tripe and you are genuinely interested in purchasing a Ginault.


You know i have been studying this group of nay sayers of Ginault after their actions caught my attention. Why did it catch my attention? Usually if you dont like or find interest in a watch you most likely would just move on and not even participate in the threads. But this particular group on the other hand monitors closely every single move in all Ginault's threads. Their tactic is very simple, to smear and bad mouth in every single thread, youtube comment area, fb, and so on with massive wall of texts bad mouthing Ginault. The goal? To confuse new comers. Imagine you saw a picture of the OR and love it, whats the next logical thing you would do? You would google the brand right? When they do that and found a sea of overwhelming threads interweaved with all these frustrating and confusing posts based on lies and ill intentions, it discourages the purchasing desire.

In the end only the select few that have the patience and time to read through everthing and the analytical skills to see thru the false lies would make the purchase. And that is the goal.

Just like the poster above who unsubscribed due to frustration, this battle is being won by the evil side.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> Very interesting comparison using music bands. Super well written but there is something id like to add on top of this. In the review where the OP pointed out the Ocean Rover is mm away from the Rolex Sub i believe he is referring to the quality and craftsmanship that went into Ginault's OR. I think a better anology would be comparing a group of 10 bands covering the same iconic song by RS. There are bound to be bands that do better jobs than the other bands. And maybe out of these bands, one would give an amazing and most memorible performance out of them all. And the Ginaul Ocean Rover is just this band giving the most excellent performance through their demonstration in quality and craftsmanship comparing to other sub par homages floating around this vast ocean.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


false equivalence. The knock on Ginault is not that it fails to deliver quality visavis other homages, its that it is dishonest in its effort. Thats the whole thing.

Quit burying the lead.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> false equivalence. The knock on Ginault is not that it fails to deliver quality visavis other homages, its that it is dishonest in its effort. Thats the whole thing.
> 
> Quit burying the lead.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is yet another ignorant comment from the detractors. Many non Ginault owners doubted the Ocean Rover,'s quality initially. This approach was finally proven ineffective and it was only then the detractors pivotted to the company's origin claim. This is a very basic if we cant knock you down with slander A we are going to try with slander B if not then will try C tactic. This method is often used in today's political environment and we are seeing the same by your group. Funny thing is Ginault's origin and claim has zero issue. This is a great American comoany manufacturering in the good US of A.(Ginault is very honest about which parts were not from here and what were made here in their post) You guys tried so hard to spin that story by bluring the focus calling them liars. And yet you have zero proof. Zero nada to back up your claim. All you have is just some flawed logic.

Ginault is not only honest they have provided an excellent watch with great customer service. They went above and beyond with the Ocean Rover bar non in the Sub homage category. They are a true American treasure. They are the real deal.

For anyone thats looking for a quality Sub homage that feels substantial on the wrist the Ocean Rover is the best alternative.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mf1tym said:


> You know i have been studying this group of nay sayers of Ginault after their actions caught my attention. Why did it catch my attention? Usually if you dont like or find interest in a watch you most likely would just move on and not even participate in the threads. But this particular group on the other hand monitors closely every single move in all Ginault's threads. Their tactic is very simple, to smear and bad mouth in every single thread, youtube comment area, fb, and so on with massive wall of texts bad mouthing Ginault. The goal? To confuse new comers. Imagine you saw a picture of the OR and love it, whats the next logical thing you would do? You would google the brand right? When they do that and found a sea of overwhelming threads interweaved with all these frustrating and confusing posts based on lies and ill intentions, it discourages the purchasing desire.
> 
> In the end only the select few that have the patience and time to read through everthing and the analytical skills to see thru the false lies would make the purchase. And that is the goal.
> 
> ...


Evil!?!
Lies?!?

A group just back from shouting out who killed the Kennedys, now is after you and [ginault]? Cmon, theres no conspiracy. Just a number of guys who took justifiable shots against a company's wild claims, asking for substantiation, who got hammered by guys for shining a little light on shady business practices. Why? It hurt your feelings?

This is why I keep returning. You keep burying the lead on the legitimate debate. Jimi wrote a great piece, and you buried it with a pile of posts almost immediately, adding nothing to the debate but more ad hominem attacks.

If i get it wrong, show me how. Quit insinuating that im part of some ill begotten conspiracy in the meantime. I offered a free watch a few posts back. Thats gone unclaimed, as i knew it would, because this campaign of name-calling and false accusations is baseless.

Anyway, nicely done, Jimi.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Evil!?!
> Lies?!?
> 
> A group just back from shouting out who killed the Kennedys, now is after you and [ginault]? Cmon, theres no conspiracy. Just a number of guys who took justifiable shots against a company's wild claims, asking for substantiation, who got hammered by guys for shining a little light on shady business practices. Why? It hurt your feelings?
> ...


You are the one burying our posts people who actual contribution to the thread. Ginault's claim isnt wild. But because your limit knowlege cannot comprehend does not mean it is wild.

Jimi's post isnt bad but the analogy a bit flawed.

And your purpose here? Truly selfless? i think not. Reminds me of many greatest artists work cannot be comprehend while they were alive by the people eho judge them during that time.

There is enough proof of Gianults origin and just because they can do what other micros cannot doesnt make them liars. 
Instead they are the true trailblazers to bringing watchmaking back to the US
Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Purple Hayz said:


> Something of a false equivalence, methinks. The analogue would be a spydy that reads "Mechanical Precision Cutting Device" or something similar ;-)
> 
> Still, props for making me look, and sure enough you were right. Being perfectly honest though, I'm usually glancing at this side of my blades before deciding which one to carry for the day.
> 
> ...


If you take on the task of quoting so many people please be sure to attribute the right quotes to the right people.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Evil!?!
> Lies?!?
> 
> A group just back from shouting out who killed the Kennedys, now is after you and [ginault]? Cmon, theres no conspiracy. Just a number of guys who took justifiable shots against a company's wild claims, asking for substantiation, who got hammered by guys for shining a little light on shady business practices. Why? It hurt your feelings?
> ...


Adding nothing to the debate? How about the one key question i have been asking again and again and yet with no straight answer.If you think Ginault is actually made in China then howcome no other made in china micro brands's sub offering achieved this giant killing quality? The answer is none maybe one brand came close but if you know what you are looking for then the difference is still night and day. Why is Ginault the only company able to souce this level quality parts from china and no others can? You cannot explain this mastery eirher way no matter how hard you tried.

You reviewed the Ocean Rover yourself and you saw first hand how amazing it was and how close the quality rivaled the 16610. Perhaps your ego was hurt when they didnt answer your queastions but that doesnt make them lairs. Maybe just like they said earlier in their post they would rather do less talking and more work and show their dedication through the watch they built.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> I can buy a rep in a snap that is every bit as good as the OR, except itll have a crown on the dial instead of a flower. Just because OR chooses to copy the 16610 with exactitude doesn't mean it cant be done by others, or that others' decisions not to copy it so closely make their offerings worse. Your logic fails.
> 
> The 1:1 quality is an achievement, as ive noted time and again. And the movement would be, too, if it ultimately proves to be more than a clone. Beyond that, provenance can only be proved via facts, and Ginault wont disclose them.
> 
> ...


Lol so you are saying rep industry makes better quality watches than most these legit micro brands? Lol

The truth is you dont really know and connot offer any convincing evidence so far besides some flawed false logic which feels like more vile than the claimed white knight doing just for the members.

We understand you have mentioned in the past Ginault left some of ur quuestions unanswered. Maybe u felt hurt maybe you felt entitled to know. But why dont you take a step back and rethink if your kid's teacher at school asked you if you are truly the father of the child would you dignify the question with an answer?


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Very interesting comparison using music bands. Super well written but there is something id like to add on top of this. In the review where the OP pointed out the Ocean Rover is mm away from the Rolex Sub i believe he is referring to the quality and craftsmanship that went into Ginault's OR. I think a better anology would be comparing a group of 10 bands covering the same iconic song by RS. There are bound to be bands that do better jobs than the other bands. And maybe out of these bands, one would give an amazing and most memorible performance out of them all. And the Ginaul Ocean Rover is just this band giving the most excellent performance through their demonstration in quality and craftsmanship comparing to other sub par homages floating around this vast ocean.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


He likely was talking about the quality too, but you AGAIN dodge the fact that this watch can take Rolex parts. If you put the midcase of this up against the midcase of a 5 digit sub you could pop the genuine bits on either one.

That's what he meant, and that's the convenient fact that y'all continually choose to ignore. Why would someone go to the trouble of making the case to that level of copy you ask? I'm sure it's just because they really like Rolex....... some may say that they even aspire to be Rolex.

We get it. It's shiny. Awesome. Yelling that louder doesn't change the facts which should be freely available for anyone with common sense to see, and then make their decision.



hidden by leaves said:


> hwa said:
> 
> 
> > I can buy a rep in a snap that is every bit as good as the OR, except itll have a crown on the dial instead of a flower. Just because OR chooses to copy the 16610 with exactitude doesn't mean it cant be done by others, or that others' decisions not to copy it so closely make their offerings worse. Your logic fails.
> ...


This x100. I dunno who keeps spreading these falsehoods about reps all being crap, but there are some truly scary close ones out there.

To say that there aren't sub reps out there of equal quality to the Ginault is laughable. I'm all for having the blinders on but this is next level.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

You seem to be very knowledgeable in replicas.


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mike120 said:


> He likely was talking about the quality too, but you AGAIN dodge the fact that this watch can take Rolex parts. If you put the midcase of this up against the midcase of a 5 digit sub you could pop the genuine bits on either one.
> 
> That's what he meant, and that's the convenient fact that y'all continually choose to ignore. Why would someone go to the trouble of making the case to that level of copy you ask? I'm sure it's just because they really like Rolex....... some may say that they even aspire to be Rolex.
> 
> ...


Mike I didnt ignore this fact. I simply dont think you ignoring my question to you about economy of scale is polite so i am not gonna answer your queastion. Until you do&#8230;&#8230;

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Seppia said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable in replicas.


And yet he claimed he wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. These ppls are seriously contradicting themselves at every turn. Any reader with half a brain should be able to see this irony.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

The ignore/block function is a wonderful thing. I have put several of these anti-Ginault shills on that list and the only way I ever see anything those folk write is when someone not on my ignore list responds to one of them.

Quite frankly, I think this thread has outlived its usefulness. It is going nowhere and has just become a back and forth, giving naysayers a platform to continue to spread unfounded rumors (many of which they, no doubt, developed on their own) to continue to speculate about all things Ginault. For all I know, every single rumor about Ginault is true but you would think that at least one of these claims could be proven with all of the scrutiny Ginault is under. People say Ginault needs to prove its claims. Well, I say if Ginault’s claims are so obviously false it should be be pretty easy to disprove them. Right?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Seppia said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable in replicas.


Why is knowledge on both sides of an argument a bad thing? There's a whole subfora in the Rolex section dedicated to discerning fakes. I presume those contributors are very knowledgeable in replicas.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> Why is knowledge on both sides of an argument a bad thing? There's a whole subfora in the Rolex section dedicated to discerning fakes. I presume those contributors are very knowledgeable in replicas.


I don't know if you're serious or not, but it's fairly obvious that in order to distinguish real from fake it is sufficient to know very well how the real thing is made: anything different is fake. 
To claim that a fake is the same quality as a ginault you'd have to know both.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Seppia said:


> You seem to be very knowledgeable in replicas.





mf1tym said:


> And yet he claimed he wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole. These ppls are seriously contradicting themselves at every turn. Any reader with half a brain should be able to see this irony.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


No.... no contradiction at all. I would never buy a rep. I would never consider owning anything made with parts used on reps. Was I once as a young WIS stupid buying a Parnis not knowing about it's dark origins? Yes. Yes I was. Doesn't change the facts Jacks.

What I have done, as I would hope every other informed consumer of repped brands has done, is look on rep forums to make sure that I know what to look for when looking at certain brands for sale. Those guys will point out the nit-pickyest little details on the edge of the rose on a Tudor. Easy way to get a good deal while avoiding a fake, some of which I would have probably picked up had it not been for those signs.

But yeah...... go for the "boy he knows about fakes har-har-har," it really fits with the rest of the fanboi affect.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

mf1tym said:


> Mike I didnt ignore this fact. I simply dont think you ignoring my question to you about economy of scale is polite so i am not gonna answer your queastion. Until you do&#8230;&#8230;
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


My apologies whatever your name actually is. Didn't mean to leave you feeling neglected.

I meant what HWA said. What else could I possibly have meant that a certain moderator wouldn't delete.......?


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

mike120 said:


> No.... no contradiction at all. I would never buy a rep. I would never consider owning anything made with parts used on reps. Was I once as a young WIS stupid buying a Parnis not knowing about it's dark origins? Yes. Yes I was. Doesn't change the facts Jacks.
> 
> What I have done, as I would hope every other informed consumer of repped brands has done, is look on rep forums to make sure that I know what to look for when looking at certain brands for sale. Those guys will point out the nit-pickyest little details on the edge of the rose on a Tudor. Easy way to get a good deal while avoiding a fake, some of which I would have probably picked up had it not been for those signs.
> 
> But yeah...... go for the "boy he knows about fakes har-har-har," it really fits with the rest of the fanboi affect.


Why are you encouraging wus members to check out rep forums?? Are you a shill for rep forums?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Seppia said:


> I don't know if you're serious or not, but it's fairly obvious that in order to distinguish real from fake it is sufficient to know very well how the real thing is made: anything different is fake.
> To claim that a fake is the same quality as a ginault you'd have to know both.


I still don't see your point. There are fakes of just about everything in the marketplace. How is knowing how to tell the difference considered a bad thing? If your objective is to avoid them wouldn't you want to know as much as you can? Suppose you're a jeweler, wouldn't knowing how to spot a fake diamond be helpful knowledge? Same with a watch collector. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, it's a sincere question.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> I still don't see your point. There are fakes of just about everything in the marketplace. How is knowing how to tell the difference considered a bad thing? If your objective is to avoid them wouldn't you want to know as much as you can? Suppose you're a jeweler, wouldn't knowing how to spot a fake diamond be helpful knowledge? Same with a watch collector. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, it's a sincere question.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Is the Ginault a rep? Simple question with a simple answer. It is not.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Is the Ginault a rep? Simple question with a simple answer. It is not.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


never said it was.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> never said it was.
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Of course you didn't.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Of course you didn't.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


I haven't. In fact, what I've said was that the Ginault is the best sub homage I've been able to buy for the money. What I've also said in other threads is if they've learned how to build a better, cheaper mousetrap, and applied that to making the OR, I congratulate them.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Interesting how BS about copies, reps, and cloning has crept into the thread courtesy of the same old suspects. I thought that was a complete infringement of forum rules. Prove the spurious claims, or cease and desist. Once and for all.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> Interesting how BS about copies, reps, and cloning has crept into the thread courtesy of the same old suspects. I thought that was a complete infringement of forum rules. Prove the spurious claims, or cease and desist. Once and for all.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


To be honest as a Ginault supporter with first hand witness of the superb quality of the Ocean Rover it will be good to see Ginault backing up their US origin claim if they choose to do so. Not to dignify the nay sayers but to give us the supporter some feedback. Like Hwa said maybe some pictures of the CNC shop/s they partnered with to make the parts would wipe out these nay sayers. But then again who knows what lies would be fabricated after that?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Time for everyone to take a break. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

*Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Let's discuss the Ginault Sub, post some pictures, and have fun !

Cheers.

G.

PS: I don't own one anymore, but still enjoy looking at nice pics and comments from their current owners.

PS #2: I don't have any interest or earnings on the Ginault company, full disclosure.

My own review here:

*Booh ! Yet another Ginault review ! 56K modem burner (Includes MKII Kingston).*

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4001706


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

You provided a great review and the comparison photos against the Kingston were very appreciated. It is a testament to the OR that it can compare so favorably to one of Bill Yao's hallmark pieces. I kind of wonder which watch has a larger distribution at this point, the Kingston or the OR?

I've had my OR for nearly a year and it serves as my beach / surfing watch. It has held up very well despite the relatively harsh treatment.


----------



## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Here's mine


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*


















Cheers!


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

I've had mine for nearly a month and it has been on my wrist 24/7.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Here's my deal, and y'all may think this rather strange but..., my Ocean Rover has ruined me for other watches. I've been looking at other watches to pick up, as we all do, and I'm just interested in wearing anything else.


----------



## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*









...the Ocean Rover next to it's Inspiration....


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Mine...

























Hope that this thread can escape the recent onslaughts from MIAPD (Made In America Police Department). :-d


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*


----------



## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Still love mine! It really is a fantastic watch you need to see to believe.

My small review (Post #1678):
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...rover-181070gsln-3860842-17.html#post44316935

And two other reviews that I thought were particularly well done when I was thinking about purchasing one:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/clas...sub-16610-vs-ginault-ocean-rover-3925066.html

A couple of pictures:


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

I wish Ginault would make one with a fully indexed bezel insert and a silver arrow seconds hand. I would rock that on an admiralty grey NATO as it would be arguably the best 5517 homage around.

In the meantime, I'll make do...


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*


































More pics!

Best regards,


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



Ryeguy said:


> I wish Ginault would make one with a fully indexed bezel insert and a silver arrow seconds hand. I would rock that on an admiralty grey NATO as it would be arguably the best 5517 homage around.
> 
> ...


+1

And don't forget the drilled through lugs too.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*


----------



## thomlad54 (Oct 3, 2006)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Here's mine


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



GarbanzoNegro said:


>


When I see a pic like this, I think that I simply must get a Smurf Blue (and who says Ginault has no sense of humor??) in addition to my Gold Sand.

It's a good thing that the Smurf Blue was not available when I bought my Ocean Rover last January. I would have torn my hair out trying to decide between the two! It reminds me of being a kid (perhaps 5 years old) in a hardware store with my mom. She wanted to buy a small stepping stool, and they came in two colors: red and green. She asked me to choose. It was so hard! I finally went with green. I still remember this, vividly, some 60 years later ...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



Avo said:


> When I see a pic like this, I think that I simply must get a Smurf Blue (and who says Ginault has no sense of humor??) in addition to my Gold Sand.
> 
> It's a good thing that the Smurf Blue was not available when I bought my Ocean Rover last January. I would have torn my hair out trying to decide between the two! It reminds me of being a kid (perhaps 5 years old) in a hardware store with my mom. She wanted to buy a small stepping stool, and they came in two colors: red and green. She asked me to choose. It was so hard! I finally went with green. I still remember this, vividly, some 60 years later ...


I agree 100%!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*

Beautiful watches. I kind of wish there was something red on the dial to complement the second hand. I like it as is, but I wonder what it would look like with some red text, or maybe the flower in red?


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## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

So I am opening this thread up again and merging the other Ginault thread into this one. Please read the rules fully and understand that the prior issues with this thread will not be tolerated. I am quoting my own post below for clarity

"I believe in lively debates up to a point but when u are driving the same tired argument over and over again of course there will be venom in return (again from both sides). 
Discuss the company. Discuss the watch. Discuss the clasp. Discuss the dial. Discuss the movement. Just leave the personal snark and attacks out. It's pretty simple."


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Boss.... You are merging the one I created after the horror I saw here ?




Quicksilver said:


> So I am opening this thread up again and merging the other Ginault thread into this one. Please read the rules fully and understand that the prior issues with this thread will not be tolerated. I am quoting my own post below for clarity
> 
> "I believe in lively debates up to a point but when u are driving the same tired argument over and over again of course there will be venom in return (again from both sides).
> Discuss the company. Discuss the watch. Discuss the clasp. Discuss the dial. Discuss the movement. Just leave the personal snark and attacks out. It's pretty simple."


----------



## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes. I hoping that no horror will ensue only pics and discussion of the watch. Fingers Crossed



goyoneuff said:


> Boss.... You are merging the one I created after the horror I saw here ?


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

I guess I spoke while you were working (ain't TWSS ).

Awesome ! I really hope folks keep it civilized this time.

Cheers !

G.


Quicksilver said:


> Yes. I hoping that no horror will ensue only pics and discussion of the watch. Fingers Crossed


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



Ryeguy said:


> I wish Ginault would make one with a fully indexed bezel insert and a silver arrow seconds hand. I would rock that on an admiralty grey NATO as it would be arguably the best 5517 homage around.
> 
> In the meantime, I'll make do...
> 
> View attachment 12687353


Probably I'll get hammered for this, but it shouldn't be hard to find a fully indexed aftermarket bezel insert like you're mentioning, and the seconds hand should also be readily findable in an ETA size. If you haven't done such mods, videos and tutorials abound. It's not even difficult the first time, so long as you have a decent magnifier and haven't had too much coffee.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



hwa said:


> Probably I'll get hammered for this, but it shouldn't be hard to find a fully indexed aftermarket bezel insert like you're mentioning, and the seconds hand should also be readily findable in an ETA size. If you haven't done such mods, videos and tutorials abound. It's not even difficult the first time, so long as you have a decent magnifier and haven't had too much coffee.


I'll not hammer you for this comment. All good in my book.

I tried my hand at modding a while ago, but I'm not confident in my capabilities.

Keyless works are my nemesis. I seem to be good at messing them up and I can't stand repairing them.

Plus, I wear my dive watches in the ocean frequently. If I were to disassemble the watch for the hand swap, I'd want to have it pressure tested.

I might consider doing the mod once the warranty period is over, but if Ginault could make one with drilled lugs and perfectly matching lume, I'd probably just buy theirs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



Ryeguy said:


> I'll not hammer you for this comment. All good in my book.
> 
> I tried my hand at modding a while ago, but I'm not confident in my capabilities.
> 
> ...


The trick to avoid upsetting the keyless is to press down to the bare minimum necessary to free the stem. If you mash it, youre asking for it.

For water, you can pick up inexpensive gasket sealant--its a clamshell, and you drop gasket inside, close the lid, and youre good to go. But, try it on something cheap first!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I just wanted to show some appreciation for the OR's great bracelet and clasp.

And I think it works pretty well on my Seaforth too!


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Ok... This is great. Could you please elaborate on the SEL fit?

I like the Seafotth but need a bracelet option.

Cheers.

G.


WastedYears said:


> I just wanted to show some appreciation for the OR's great bracelet and clasp.
> 
> And I think it works pretty well on my Seaforth too!
> 
> View attachment 12690687


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

goyoneuff said:


> Ok... This is great. Could you please elaborate on the SEL fit?
> 
> I like the Seafotth but need a bracelet option.
> 
> ...


There's almost zero gap on the sides and no noticeable gap at the top either. There's a very slight up/down wobble, but it's barely there. If it weren't for the fact that optically, the rounded end links don't quit suit the hard edges of the lugs, you'd think the bracelet was made for the watch.

I've got a an Everest rubber strap fitted with the OR's clasp that I will be mounting on the Seaforth fairly soon. I'm sure that will go together smashingly as well!


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## houston (Jul 5, 2009)

I have always been a staunch "must have a date window" guy. The Ginault has changed the way I think. I need a glowing smurfs no-date! Which lume is more intense, white or gold sand?


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

*Re: Ginault Submariner unofficial owner thread.*



rosborn said:


> Here's my deal, and y'all may think this rather strange but..., my Ocean Rover has ruined me for other watches. I've been looking at other watches to pick up, as we all do, and I'm just interested in wearing anything else.


Good for the wallet tho.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

For those with the BGW9 lume. Are your indices bright white like the print on the dial? Mine are distinctly cream colored and there is a distinct difference between the two. Just wondering if this is how the lume should look in person.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> For those with the BGW9 lume. Are your indices bright white like the print on the dial? Mine are distinctly cream colored and there is a distinct difference between the two. Just wondering if this is how the lume should look in person.












IMO, it depends under which light you look at it. Sometimes I have also noticed this creamier colour.

Best regards,


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well a lot going on since I last posted.

Enough said so I will simply post yet another pic of my well loved and appreciated OR!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Flying!

Best regards,


----------



## A MattR of Time (Feb 22, 2006)

I have been researching this watch and the company with an eye towards buying one. From my research I have concluded:

1. Ginault is a scam artist about USA assembled and the watch is nothing but an over priced Chinese knock off

or 

2. Ginault is who they say they are, the watches really are that good, and the idiots that spent $8k+ on a Rolex are pissed and are trying to destroy Ginault to justify their foolish expenditure.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

A MattR of Time said:


> I have been researching this watch and the company with an eye towards buying one. From my research I have concluded:
> 
> 1. Ginault is a scam artist about USA assembled and the watch is nothing but an over priced Chinese knock off
> 
> ...


Or

3. At least one idiot who bought a Rolex new about ten years ago, which has held all of its value, would just like to know whether any of it is too good to be true, despite all the persistently demeaning comments from those who don't care.

But, hey, bigger problems in the world.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

I've built a few 2824-based Sub homages. After almost a year and a couple Ginaults, I'd submit the truth is somewhere in the middle.... :think:


The case quality (end links are part of the case) is superior to any Sub homage I've handled. Taken apart, the case "feels" 99% like a 90s Rolex. 
The bracelet and clasp quality are not quite up to the case quality, but close. As good as the best Sub homage I've handled (save Tudor). 
Most case parts are interchangeable with the Sub. Movement parts are interchangeable with the 2824-2. This means cheap spare bits and experienced local watchmakers. 
The movements do not "feel" like Swiss ETA 2824-2s, especially around the keyless and the winding train. But they run like chronometers and are very easy to adjust. 
No one will ever be Rolex, have the history, or make those gorgeous dials. That's 90% of Rolex's market $, because it can't be replicated. Hard IMO to think of a more worthy acquisition in our crazy hobby... |>

The Ginault is an homage in (IMO) a more honest sense: no one will ever mistake its style mashup for a Rolex, but if you appreciate the Jolly Green Giant, lots of details on the Ocean Rover will make you smile. 

Currently considering a temporary green bezel swap.... :think: :-d









I've no info on the principals or their principles, but would be very surprised if you're disappointed in the actual watch. :-!


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Fantastic 30 seconds summary good brother... Thank you very much !

Cheers.

G.


NeedAG said:


> I've built a few 2824-based Sub homages. After almost a year and a couple Ginaults, I'd submit the truth is somewhere in the middle.... :think:
> 
> 
> The case quality (end links are part of the case) is superior to any Sub homage I've handled. Taken apart, the case "feels" 99% like a 90s Rolex.
> ...


----------



## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

NeedAG said:


> ...the case "feels" 99% like a 90s Rolex.
> Most case parts are interchangeable with the Sub.


I thought Ocean Rover case was 100% identical copy of 16610 Rolex case where almost all parts were interchangeable. Am I mistaken?


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> I thought Ocean Rover case was 100% identical copy of 16610 Rolex case where almost all parts were interchangeable. Am I mistaken?


I just looked up NeedAG's posts comparing the two. He has done one of the most detailed comparisons I've seen to date.

In dimension the mid cases are similar enough that bezel inserts will swap over.

The click spring location is 180 degrees off from the Rolex 16610. Also, the mounting locations for the movement tabs are in different locations (4 and 10 for Rolex, 11 and 6 for Ginault). This means the mechanism to mount the movement to the case is the same, but a movement swap would be very difficult. (I originally said not possible, but with enough time and money, anything is technically possible)

So, in summary, similar yes, identical, no.

NeedAG can probably provide more detail as I am just repeating what he previously posted.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

JUST IN!

My second Ginault, a new variant, the 181175LSILN. Maxi dial & hands with BGW9 Lume, date with cyclops.

Literally just opened the box so will offer my impression once I've studied and worn it for a few days but so far looking as good as I had expected.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Great looking watch 59er! Looking forward to your impressions. I love it that they put a strap tool in there with it...I think that's a real classy touch when a watch is shipped like that.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> I just looked up NeedAG's posts comparing the two. He has done one of the most detailed comparisons I've seen to date.


I looked for that but could not find it ... would you mind posting the link to this comparison?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> I looked for that but could not find it ... would you mind posting the link to this comparison?


There you go, Sir!
Ginault Ocean Rover No-Date 181070GSLN: A Modder's Perspective
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...eek.com/showthread.php?t=4241026&share_type=t

Best regards,


----------



## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

hwa said:


> Or
> 
> 3. At least one idiot who bought a Rolex new about ten years ago, which has held all of its value, would just like to know whether any of it is too good to be true, despite all the persistently demeaning comments from those who don't care.
> 
> ...


I dont think its too good to be true. Rolex Subs are definately the king of kings. But I suspect alot of my 9k went twds the brand's marketing advertising brand pr image building and such. A lot of the 9k i spent on my hulk went twrds prestige and a show for social status. How much of the 9k actually went twrds the quality side? Hard to say. But Ginault's Ocean Rover definately came very very very close to my Hulk at 1/10 the price. This is good news for all of us who are looking for an classis sub alternative but wish not to sacrafice on the quality side of things.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hey, both of you, cut it out. The tone and nastiness diminishes each time one or the other of you is banned, and it starts back up as soon as the infraction is lifted. Knock it off, please.


----------



## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

I have deleted posts AGAIN. As HWA stated "knock it off" RNHC asked a *legitimate* question and was attacked for it by a poster just coming off a timeout. Posts will continue to be deleted until I tire of it and lock the thread again.


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Ok gents... Can we please , please keep this civilized? I don't want to create a new thread ! Lol.


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Quicksilver said:


> I have deleted posts AGAIN. As HWA stated "knock it off" RNHC asked a *legitimate* question and was attacked for it by a poster just coming off a timeout. Posts will continue to be deleted until I tire of it and lock the thread again.


With all due respect I think you're ignoring a very serious and negative underlying agenda at play here. It has persisted for many months and continues to recur. That's the last I am going to say on the matter.


----------



## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Radar1 said:


> With all due respect I think you're ignoring a very serious and negative underlying agenda at play here. It has persisted for many months and continues to recur. That's the last I am going to say on the matter.


With all due respect I do understand the underlying issue and it is on both sides. The point of MY post was to point out that an actual legitimate question was posed and vehemently responded to. As you can see I deleted posts again on both sides. Continuing to believe that only ONE side has an agenda is naive. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

*NeedAG, * sounds like you have taken one of these apart and examined the movement in detail, possible disassembling a little as well? If so, can you confirm if there are ANY markings what so ever on the movement? I've seen none in any of the pictures I have seen.

I've been curious about this watch for some time. Given all the passionate back-and-forth questions about the movement, it seems to me there is a pretty easy way to incontestably settle any and all debate: all that is needed is for a watch maker, or someone with the proper skills and knowledge, to examine the movement in detail.

Technically this should not require any disassembly, other than removing the case back, because marking are required to be visible. But since no markings seem to be apparent in any pictures, perhaps it may actually require removing the rotor, or the movement form the case, to find them.

If the movement is imported (see below), even partially assembled, it must by US law be clearly stamped with the manufacturer's name or identifier (logo), COO, and # of jewels. Most mfg's would I think also include a model number for easy identification.

Even watch moments made or assembled the USA must be marked with something that identifies at least the manufacturer. Weiss and Shinola do that. In fact, failure to do this may be considered an unfair trade practice and deceptive selling per US Code of Federal Regulations.

I know this has been a sensitive topic, so before some people start slashing their wrists or jumping off buildings, please note I have no interest other than trying to offer up a simple, logical, impartial, and 100% fact-based way to settle the issue once and for all. I actually think the watch looks great.

Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (2010)
Annotated for Statistical Reporting Purposes 



 Special Marking Requirements: With the following exceptions, any movement or case provided for in this chapter, whether importedseparately or attached to an article provided for in this chapter, shall not be permitted to be entered unless conspicuously and indeliblymarked by cutting, die-sinking, engraving, stamping (including by means of indelible ink), or mold-marking (either indented or raised), asspecified below. Movements with opto-electronic display only and cases designed for use therewith, whether entered as separatearticles or as components of assembled watches or clocks, are excepted from the marking requirements set forth in this note. Thespecial marking requirements are as follows:

 (a) Watch movements shall be marked on one or more of the bridges or top plates to show:

 (i) the name of the country of manufacture;
 (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser; and
 (iii) in words, the number of jewels, if any, serving a mechanical purpose as frictional bearings.

 (b) Clock movements shall be marked on the most visible part of the front or back plate to show:

 (i) the name of the country of manufacture;
 (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser; and
 (iii) the number of jewels, if any.

 (c) Watch cases shall be marked on the inside or outside of the back to show:

 (i) the name of the country of manufacture; and
 (ii) the name of the manufacturer or purchaser.

 (d) Clock cases provided for in this chapter shall be marked on the most visible part of the outside of the back to show the name of thecountry of manufacture.


Applies to:

(f) The term "incomplete watch or clock movements, assembled" refers to:
(I) Mechanical movements which are mounted but lack certain parts other than the dial, hands or winding spindle (e.g., theescapement or the barrel bridge);



 (ii) Battery powered movements with mechanical displays which are mounted but lack certain parts other than the dial, hands,setting spindle or battery (e.g., the motor); or
 (iii) Other movements intended to operate with opto-electronic displays which are mounted but lack certain parts other than thebattery (e.g., the display).
 (g) The term "rough watch or clock movements" refers to sets of unassembled parts for the assembly of watch or clock movements ofa kind constructed to work with an escapement. These sets do not include escapement, balance wheel and hairspring or otherregulating device, mainspring, dial or hands; they therefore consist mainly of the base plate (and any additional plates), bridges,train, motion work, winding and setting mechanism and any additional mechanisms such as automatic winding device, calendarmechanisms, chronograph, alarm, etc. These sets may be entered with or without a barrel. Each element, intended for use as itis, may itself consist of one simple piece or of several parts fitted inseparably together, but such elements may not themselves beassembled to each other. 



NeedAG said:


> I've built a few 2824-based Sub homages. After almost a year and a couple Ginaults, I'd submit the truth is somewhere in the middle.... :think:
> 
> 
> The case quality (end links are part of the case) is superior to any Sub homage I've handled. Taken apart, the case "feels" 99% like a 90s Rolex.
> ...


----------



## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks!



GarbanzoNegro said:


> There you go, Sir!
> Ginault Ocean Rover No-Date 181070GSLN: A Modder's Perspective
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...eek.com/showthread.php?t=4241026&share_type=t
> 
> Best regards,


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Oh dear...

When I created the "Unofficial Ginault owners thread" I did it with the intention of seeing pictures of these nice watches. It was then merged to this original thread and I am sad now to see it is taking the wrong road, again.

Can we all please be just WIS and enjoy watches ?

With deep regards,

Brother G.


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

RNHC said:


> What agenda? Are you referring to a supposition that Ginault is made by a fake maker? Didn't I and other Ginault "opponents" express that a fake maker going "legit" and applying its expertise in homage market was a good thing? I'm pretty sure that I expressed that more than once.


What you call a "supposition" most of us call an agenda... and we really don't care what you suppose!


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> ...the mounting locations for the movement tabs are in different locations (4 and 10 for Rolex, 11 and 6 for Ginault). This means the mechanism to mount the movement to the case is the same, but a movement swap would be very difficult. (I originally said not possible, but with enough time and money, anything is technically possible)


Like the references to a U.S.-based service center on their Chinese language website, this too I would consider a positive development, and one that should dampen some of the more serious suspicions surrounding this watch. JMHO, but if Ginault's aims were to clone the case so perfectly that someone could utilize it to fab a franken-Rolex with a genuine 313x, then this seems like the _last _thing they would want to do. It'd be like making a 1:1 clone of a vintage 911 but then changing the location of the engine mounts so that you _couldn't _put a real Porsche boxer in it. So if Ryeguy is right here, I think of this as a big plus.



nepatriot said:


> If the movement is imported (see below), even partially assembled, it must by US law be clearly stamped with the manufacturer's name or identifier (logo), COO, and # of jewels. Most mfg's would I think also include a model number for easy identification.
> 
> Even watch moments made or assembled the USA must be marked with something that identifies at least the manufacturer. Weiss and Shinola do that. In fact, failure to do this may be considered an unfair trade practice and deceptive selling per US Code of Federal Regulations.


I have several customs agents in the extended fam, and I'm all but certain you are correct. By law, there has to be _some _indication of origin, even if it's only a small stamping on the baseplate. There are exemptions to the COO disclosure statutes for antiques, used goods over 20 years old, original works of art, etc., but I don't see how a new watch movement would qualify. Does anyone have some good close-up shots? Hard to imagine this issue not being raised before now.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Purple Hayz said:


> Like the references to a U.S.-based service center on their Chinese language website, this too I would consider a positive development, and one that should dampen some of the more serious suspicions surrounding this watch. JMHO, but if Ginault's aims were to clone the case so perfectly that someone _could _utilize it to fab a franken-Rolex with a genuine 313x, then this seems like the last thing they would want to do. It'd be like making a 1:1 clone of a vintage 911 but then changing the location of the engine mounts so that you _couldn't _put a real Porsche boxer in it. So if Ryeguy is right here, I think of this as a big plus.
> 
> I have several customs agents in the extended fam, and I'm all but certain you are right here. By law, there has to be _some _indication of origin, even if it's only a small stamping on the baseplate. There are exemptions to the COO disclosure statutes for antiques, used goods over 20 years old, original works of art, etc., but I don't see how a new watch movement would qualify. Does anyone have some good close-up shots? Hard to imagine this issue not being raised before now.


Interesting. When I pulled the back off my copy, there were no markings to be noted on the movement. So, my watchmaker could only surmise that it was indeed a 2824 clone, origin unknown, but apparently better quality than the typical asian clones. At the time of my review, that led me to wonder why there were no markings, as creation of a US made/partially US made movement would be a significant development at this time in history. You would think any such manufacturer would be loud and proud of that accomplishment, as is true of RGM (and has a price to prove it), especially considering that the stated goal for the Ginault caliber is to avoid the supply chain problems relating to the Swatch Group's on again/off again threats to limit availability of ETA movements.

I wonder whether the origin requirements you reference apply to component parts of assembled watches, e.g., if a watch is shipped with a Swiss Made label, would customs be inclined to remove the caseback to see whether components were labeled otherwise, or labeled at all? I ask because, probably like many here, I have any number of watches with unmarked movements that definitely are not US made.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

I don't have one now...

So, please... Can an owner please post a pic? Too long of a thread without any pics !!

.

Cheers.

G.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

goyoneuff said:


> I don't have one now...
> 
> So, please... Can an owner please post a pic? Too long of a thread without any pics !!
> 
> ...












A pleasure.

Best regards,


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Purple Hayz said:


> Like the references to a U.S.-based service center on their Chinese language website, this too I would consider a positive development, and one that should dampen some of the more serious suspicions surrounding this watch. JMHO, but if Ginault's aims were to clone the case so perfectly that someone could utilize it to fab a franken-Rolex with a genuine 313x, then this seems like the _last _thing they would want to do. It'd be like making a 1:1 clone of a vintage 911 but then changing the location of the engine mounts so that you _couldn't _put a real Porsche boxer in it. So if Ryeguy is right here, I think of this as a big plus.
> 
> I have several customs agents in the extended fam, and I'm all but certain you are right here. By law, there has to be _some _indication of origin, even if it's only a small stamping on the baseplate. There are exemptions to the COO disclosure statutes for antiques, used goods over 20 years old, original works of art, etc., but I don't see how a new watch movement would qualify. Does anyone have some good close-up shots? Hard to imagine this issue not being raised before now.


I think you are dead on right with the first point. I made a similar analogy earlier on a different thread. The Ginault (IMO) is analogous to a Factory Five Cobra Roadster. It looks good, it is fun to drive with reckless, carefree abandon, but it is absolutely not an authentic vintage Shelby Cobra. The existence of the Factory Five Cobra does not devalue or reduce the prestige of the vintage Shelby, and given Shelby / Ford isn't making vintage-style roadsters any longer, the Factory Five product provides an opportunity to enjoy the experience.

To the second point, I have also inspected every photo of the movement I can find online. I have been unable to find any markings at all.

I know there is some significant forum suspicion regarding Ginault's ability to manufacture a movement. Given there are no markings at all, one would have to believe Ginault is making only movement base plates and buying off-the-shelf clones, tearing them down, and re-manufacturing them with their own plain base plate. This seems unlikely to me.

I'm leaning towards a belief that Ginault is actually making movements (or at least significant portions of them, such as the plates and gears).

Unfortunately, this is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario as, assuming they are manufacturing the movement, they are likely violating the FTC markings rule.

My thought is Ginault could very well fall into the same circumstance they did with the "Made in the USA" controversy. They were so proud of what they accomplished, they didn't realize the rules on the statement were more strict than they anticipated. Same is likely with the movement.

Heck, I am an admitted watch nerd and I had no idea there was rule on watch movement markings.


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

hwa said:


> I wonder whether the origin requirements you reference apply to component parts of assembled watches, e.g., if a watch is shipped with a Swiss Made label, would customs be inclined to remove the caseback to see whether components were labeled otherwise, or labeled at all? I ask because, probably like many here, I have any number of watches with unmarked movements that definitely are not US made.


I wondered the same thing. I know automakers have to disclose COO of powertrain components like engine and transmission, but perhaps for an assembled watch a label on the caseback, dial, or perhaps even just the packaging would be sufficient. I can't say for sure, but I _do _have a couple throwaways in the stable with unmarked movements, but one is a $12 Chinese tonji I purchased primarily to torture and destroy, and the other is cheap fashion watch with a...wait for it...Chinese sea-gull clone.

But those were assembled watches when I bought them. Doesn't Ginault claim to finish their watches and movements (possibly with some locally made parts) here in the states? If so, whether they're importing Ébauches or even semi-finished movements, those parts would need a COO identifier _somewhere_.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> I think you are dead on right with the first point. I made a similar analogy earlier on a different thread. The Ginault (IMO) is analogous to a Factory Five Cobra Roadster. It looks good, it is fun to drive with reckless, carefree abandon, but it is absolutely not an authentic vintage Shelby Cobra. The existence of the Factory Five Cobra does not devalue or reduce the prestige of the vintage Shelby, and given Shelby / Ford isn't making vintage-style roadsters any longer, the Factory Five product provides an opportunity to enjoy the experience.
> 
> To the second point, I have also inspected every photo of the movement I can find online. I have been unable to find any markings at all.
> 
> ...


Did a known movement expert on the forum not take a hard look at this one and clearly state that it is not a Chinese ETA clone? And he had no dog in the fight.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> ...Factory Five Cobra Roadster. It looks good, it is fun to drive with reckless, carefree abandon, but it is absolutely not an authentic vintage Shelby Cobra. The existence of the Factory Five Cobra does not devalue or reduce the prestige of the vintage Shelby, and given Shelby / Ford isn't making vintage-style roadsters any longer, the Factory Five product provides an opportunity to enjoy the experience.


Man after my own heart. Considering what the original AC Shelby Cobras are fetching these days (here's one for a cool $*1.5 milion*), I'm inclined to agree. As a former track rat, though, I'd probably wind up doing something very, very stupid (but hella fun) even in one of the factory five kit cars. Besides, I've already got my first "homage" car picked out:

View attachment 12712021


mostly since I seem to have misplaced the 200K+ I would need for this:

View attachment 12712031


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

A thread on a German watch forum had a user who's watchmaker said "the movement had none of the usual Chinese silliness" (excuse the loose translation).

I've actually had a couple SeaGull 2824-2 clones in some older OWC's. They ran well and were acceptably accurate. I think the biggest issue with the SeaGull stuff is cleanliness and oiling (either too much, or too little). OWC took the time to inspect and properly set-up the SeaGull movements, and they've run fine. One example I have is now close to 10 years old.

As a side note, the reason Dan went with SeaGull was due to counterfeit ETA's getting into the authentic ETA supply chain. Small brand owners such as OWC, who assembled the watches locally (Australia in Dan's case) cannot meet the minimum order quantities to purchase directly from ETA.

These brand owners must buy movements from middlemen. Dan's watchmaker informed him that a percentage of the ETA's he had purchased were not actual ETA 2824-2's. This frustration caused him to look for direct factory suppliers where he could buy without the large MOQ requirements.

Many of today's micro-brands outsource all the manufacturing and assembly to contract business partners. They likely never even touch the watch you purchase from them. They simply create the design and are the "face" of the company to the marketplace.

I'm not saying one way is better or worse than then other - just different.


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

Radar1 said:


> Did a known movement expert on the forum not take a hard look at this one and clearly state that it is not a Chinese ETA clone? And he had no dog in the fight.


I'd love to see that thread, but I think it would be very, very hard for even the most seasoned movement veteran to make that call, since any assessment of a movement's (or components) origin is only as good as his reference points, and given the sheer number of movements (and parts) made in China (even by the Swiss), it's almost impossible to have a complete sample for comparison. I've seen #[email protected]# coming out of there you'd find hard to believe, but it's not uncommon to find a sequence like this:

1) Sea-Gull Tianjin (ST) copies an off patent ETA 28xx (more accurately, does their own, often simplified, riff/take on it)
2) Hangzhou (or some other 1.5/2nd tier movement maker) does their own branded copy of the ST copy of the ETA
3) Some no-name, third-tier producer does an _unbranded _copy of the ST copy (1) of the ETA, or a similarly unbranded copy of the HZ copy of the ST copy of the ETA (still with me?)
4) An alternative theory to 3) is that some of the rejects (or lowest binned) output from 1) and 2) are cobbled together _somewhere _in the far East (let's just go with Hogwarts for now) to make marginally functional, nameless, dirt cheap frankens
5) Through channels known, unknown, and sorta known, all this stuff makes its way into various mushroom brands, mall-watches, and even some micros 
6) Meanwhile American parts suppliers, tongue in cheek, get to playfully sell us stuff like this, with the most hilarious disclaimers this side of "Warning: contains peanuts" on jars of Planter's PEANUTS:








Whose parts/batches end up where can be a total mystery. Unless the watchmakers A) know for sure, and B) choose to tell us. Unfortunately, most don't. Even Swatch-group milks this for all it's worth, selling us legally "Swiss made" wares with parts that could be sourced almost entirely from their "global partners."


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Fair points. It can no doubt get very convoluted. His comment I believe was that it was like no other Chinese clone he had seen. Presumably he has seen many.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Purple Hayz said:


> Like the references to a U.S.-based service center on their Chinese language website, this too I would consider a positive development, and one that should dampen some of the more serious suspicions surrounding this watch. JMHO, but if Ginault's aims were to clone the case so perfectly that someone could utilize it to fab a franken-Rolex with a genuine 313x, then this seems like the _last _thing they would want to do. It'd be like making a 1:1 clone of a vintage 911 but then changing the location of the engine mounts so that you _couldn't _put a real Porsche boxer in it. So if Ryeguy is right here, I think of this as a big plus.
> 
> I have several customs agents in the extended fam, and I'm all but certain you are right here. By law, there has to be _some _indication of origin, even if it's only a small stamping on the baseplate. There are exemptions to the COO disclosure statutes for antiques, used goods over 20 years old, original works of art, etc., but I don't see how a new watch movement would qualify. Does anyone have some good close-up shots? Hard to imagine this issue not being raised before now.


What's less clear to me is what the most current regs are for a watch movement almost completely assembled in the US, from largely US sourced parts, as Ginault claims. My interpretation from what I've found suggests that the movement itself should have the manufacture stamped or engraved on it.

But its also possible that there is no requirement for watch movements assembled as Ginault claims to have anything stamped on the movement itself.

If so, that might actually supports Ginault claims, and might explain why there are no markings on their movement: they don't have to.

On the other hand, they could importing a movement that is improperly marked, or perhaps flying under the radar screen: below some import minimum number of units, or by listing their watches as prototypes certain regs don't apply.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> A thread on a German watch forum had a user who's watchmaker said "the movement had none of the usual Chinese silliness" (excuse the loose translation).
> 
> I've actually had a couple SeaGull 2824-2 clones in some older OWC's. They ran well and were acceptably accurate. I think the biggest issue with the SeaGull stuff is cleanliness and oiling (either too much, or too little). OWC took the time to inspect and properly set-up the SeaGull movements, and they've run fine. One example I have is now close to 10 years old.
> 
> ...


I have heard the same tales, and suspect that's why Dan at OWC now offers Soprod movements along with the (A)ETAs. Presumably, the Soprods don't have that provenance issue, at least not yet.

Somebody around here tore down a 2824 next to an (A)2824 and concluded that the ETA was significantly better from the factory in terms of fit, finish, cleanliness (hair, fibers, that sort of thing), but after cleaning, a bit of filing, and reassembling both, suggested that they were effectively identical. That post is quite good, but lost somewhere in the Affordables section if memory serves. Lots of pictures.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

How is the BGW9 lume? Charges fast? Bright? Lasts long? How does it compare to Seiko, Helson, etc?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Ironically, my A10 caused me the most aggravation out of my entire collection. It had to go back to Oz twice for repair. Ultimately, the movement was cleaned, properly re-oiled, and has been perfect since. If I remember correctly, Steinhart had issues with A10’s as well. Their premium lines now use 2892’s I believe. 

While I have no factual information about the Ginault movement origin, given its accuracy (both reported and my own experience) I highly doubt these were assembled from rejected and unbranded parts. They may be “backdoor specials” from the back of the Sellita factory, but they were properly assembled, regulated, and adjusted. 

Consistency is the hallmark of a good manufacturing process and these movements have been consistent for certain. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

I have an OR, and I like it, but I have no more information than anyone else about any of these open questions. I think they're all valid questions, and deserve to be asked, and would be interesting to hear answered, and I'd very much like to be there when they are. I don't the problem is the validity of the questions or the credibility of the questioners; I think the problem is that all the same questions get asked and all the same answers get speculated about, over and over and over. I'd be interested in new questions (some of the questions and commentary about the movement just now were very interesting), but I've heard the old questions with the attendant speculation dozens of times now and don't feel enriched by hearing them repeated every other page, any more than I need to hear speculation about the moral goodness of the company. Basically I'm just tired of the repetition, and the animosity that keeps accompanying it.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well either way it's great to see the thread progressing with active debate.

For me although the debate about brand component origins and stated data from the manufacturer is interesting but of no real consequence as I'm not concerned about the watches credentials apart from it's fit and finish and what previous owners have reported.

I understand that many guys are concerned with statements made by the manufacturer and their comments are warranted in that particular context but the world is full of BS and we are lied to by our politicians, unions, employers, banks, clergy and virtually ALL sellers so I pay no attention to any seller or manufacturers sales blurbs.

For me I treat everything I buy as if I were buying it at an auction with no stated providence or claims of suitability for what I am buying it for so accept any risk should that item not be as hoped for.

With this particular brand I read every review and forum post I could which is what led me to this thread and by far the majority of posts and reviews gave the watch itself a decent report.

I also paid attention to posts of people who reported defects or issues and all of those were resolved quickly and to the satisfaction of the posters.

From what I can tell this brand is likely made up of only a handful of people and likely another handful of subcontractors so we are dealing with almost a cottage industry built item but from what I have seen the product is at least as good as many of the middle sized manufacturers so I'd rather be dealing with a smal group of enthusiast builders than with a conglomerate and where the small group comes from makes no difference to me.

When I contacted them I get quick responses and my questions have been fully answered, when I paid my watches were delivered quickly and safely packaged, my first watch has been a regular wearer for many months and has performed as it should.

So now I have just taken delivery of my second watch and today will be the first day to see how it goes.

And as per usual here is yet another wristie taken this morning.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

goyoneuff said:


> Oh dear...
> 
> When I created the "Unofficial Ginault owners thread" I did it with the intention of seeing pictures of these nice watches. It was then merged to this original thread and I am sad now to see it is taking the wrong road, again.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on this bro.

No worries. The mods will clean the thread up soon, I hope.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Someone asked for pics? Am I allowed to post photos of the actual watch in question?










Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Ok... Since I don't have one with me, I will repost this one !


59er said:


>


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

goyoneuff said:


> Ok... Since I don't have one with me, I will repost this one !


Works for me!


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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

Hard to beat.


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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

Love me some lume.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)




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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Now this is more like it, pure watch viewing pleasure, all a simple man like me needs.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I am not exaggerating when I say that my Ocean Rover changed my whole perspective of watches. I’ve owned it for a month. I’veworn it every single day. I wouln’t trade it for anything (way out of the norm for me, a serial flipper) unless, possibly, I was trading for the no date version of the same watch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Alpineboy (Apr 29, 2016)

Great pics, guys! Keep 'em coming!


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

*19 more contentious posts have been removed. You've already been warned by the assigned forum Mod on several occasions. If some of you can't refrain from casting aspersions on a legitimate business, hurling personal insults and baiting each other I will make sure the rest of 2017 will be peace on WatchUSeek and goodwill towards Ginault owners.

It's your call, but enough is enough. *


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm digging that new blue lume! 

I'm still very pleased with my Rover. I was one of the first 10 sold and have not one single regret in my purchase. 

The Ginault fills a niche for me for a bunch of reasons.....fearful of stirring up trouble if I explain EXACTLY why that is. I would never really consider owning an official Swiss Submariner, but I love the way they look. The OR has provided me with the look I wanted and quality of build I'd hoped for at a level that a humble watch guy like me can get his hands on without selling all other possessions. Mine gets worn sporadically a few times a week and never misses a beat or fails to still thrill me when I look at it on my wrist. 

I'll admit this just might make me biased. I just can't seem to find anything truly wrong with this watch! Guess time will tell.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

You guys are a crazy bunch of honey badgers.  I always know when I see more that 5 unread posts on a Gina thread what’s going on. But like a car crash I can’t look away. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

rosborn said:


> I am not exaggerating when I say that my Ocean Rover changed my whole perspective of watches. I've owned it for a month. I've worn it every single day. I wouldn't trade it for anything (way out of the norm for me, a serial flipper) unless, possibly, I was trading for the no date version of the same watch.
> 
> I'm with you....now I sort of expect that everything else should be just as good as one of these. The OR sort of ruined me!!!
> 
> Looks like there are at least 2 of these floating around the mitten. Yours and mine that we know of.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well I'm mainly here for the pics and other happy owners.


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Long gone, but I really enjoyed owning it. I will definitely continue to follow the brand and their future releases.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mnejmantowicz said:


> Love me some lume.


Let's say, if one must go so which one will stay and why ?


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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

lvt said:


> Let's say, if one must go so which one will stay and why ?


The Gold Sand lume would stay. It's grown on me since I got it and makes the watch stand out more. Also has that faux vintage look which I think was
Intended.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mnejmantowicz said:


> The Gold Sand lume would stay. It's grown on me since I got it and makes the watch stand out more. Also has that faux vintage look which I think was
> Intended.


Thank you


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

The blue grabbed me when I saw it for the first time, but the gold sand would be my pick to stay.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Thank you y'all for the nice pics !! 

And thank you Bo and sorry for the mess ! 

Let's see more pics shall we ? 

Cheers. 

G.


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

nepatriot said:


> What's less clear to me is what the most current regs are for a watch movement almost completely assembled in the US, from largely US sourced parts, as Ginault claims. My interpretation from what I've found suggests that the movement itself should have the manufacture stamped or engraved on it.
> 
> But its also possible that there is no requirement for watch movements assembled as Ginault claims to have anything stamped on the movement itself.
> 
> ...


Yeah that's the conundrum. We just don't know. In my stats courses, I call it a "black box" mechanism. We know what comes out of the equation (a roughly finished but solid performing 2824 clone), and we know _some _of what goes in (balance, hairspring, shock absorber, etc.). The interplay between the components, and even basic questions about which (other) parts are sourced and from where, remain a mystery. I'm sure the detractors and defenders alike would love to pull the curtain back, but seeing as that could also reveal Ginault's "recipe" to potential competitors and curious consumers alike, I don't think it's realistic, or even fair, to demand Ginault do this. To my knowledge, there is no law (or even industry norm) that states a watchmaker has to disclose where all their parts are sourced. I _know _the bracelet on my Citizen Signature Grand Classic is from China, b/c Citizen stamps "Band China" on the clasp. I _think _my Omega Aqua Terra also has a bracelet that's made in China, but since there's no COO, it could just as well be made on Mars.

In short, I think it's incumbent upon Ginault to comply with any regs and statutes governing C of O disclosure (same way I feel about FTC "made in" claims on the caseback and dial). If the watches are cased and assembled here, then the movement/ebauche is an imported part, the origin of which should be stamped/printed _somewhere_. Until it is, I suspect it will continue to raise questions that play more to the skeptics than the defenders, if nothing else because it has that "filed off serial number" sorta vibe to it--the assumption being that one rarely does this for _good _reasons. On the other hand, if this is just another reg that Ginault overlooked unintentionally, then I find the omission doubly irritating (if easy to amend), as it only serves to mute (or distract from) what most would recognize as a pretty remarkable level of execution. Very few watches at this price point are subjected to such extensive efforts to regulate, test, and possibly even adjust, a movement _after _casing. Even COSC certification is valid only for bare, uncased movements, not finished watches. Ginault has done some impressive work with these movements, and frankly, the more humble said movement's beginnings, the more impressive the final product appears. You _expect _a Rolex 313x and an Omega 8900 to keep COSC-level time (they _have to_, in fact). But if you had developed a lowly ETA clone that could do the same (or even close), why wouldn't you "put your name on it," so to speak?


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

OR owners, can you guys post shots of the timing/testing certs that came with the watches, if you still have them? I've got an idea for some Monte Carlo sims that might prove revealing.

And if any of you have a timegrapher (even a Cheap ACE 1000 will do), I might even be able to help you find the "man behind the curtain" so to speak. At the very least, it shouldn't be hard to get rough performance profile of the 7275, though depending on the production tolerances, we may need a "sample" of 10 units or so. PM me if interested.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Purple Hayz said:


> OR owners, can you guys post shots of the timing/testing certs that came with the watches, if you still have them? I've got an idea for some Monte Carlo sims that might prove revealing.
> 
> And if any of you have a timegrapher (even a Cheap ACE 1000 will do), I might even be able to help you find the "man behind the curtain" so to speak. At the very least, it shouldn't be hard to get rough performance profile of the 7275, though depending on the production tolerances, we may need a "sample" of 10 units or so. PM me if interested.












Here is mine. Look forward to seeing the results from your idea.

Best regards,


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Purple Hayz said:


> OR owners, can you guys post shots of the timing/testing certs that came with the watches, if you still have them? I've got an idea for some Monte Carlo sims that might prove revealing.


There are timing certifications posted in the Reviews forum. FYI, some owners reported that the actual accuracy differed from what was on the timing sheets.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

What happened? I thought the most of the posts were civil and made interesting points. Did something happen or someone go off the rail since I logged off yesterday afternoon?


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

RNHC said:


> There are timing certifications posted in the Reviews forum. FYI, some owners reported that the actual accuracy differed from what was on the timing sheets.


Both of my OCs where no where close to the timing certificates.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Mine runs slightly better than the timing card specified. Obviously these things can deviate over time. COSC standard timekeeping for mine. I think I can live with that.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

RNHC said:


> What happened? I thought the most of the posts were civil and made interesting points. Did something happen or someone go off the rail since I logged off yesterday afternoon?


CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN - Page 207


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

RNHC said:


> What happened? I thought the most of the posts were civil and made interesting points. Did something happen or someone go off the rail since I logged off yesterday afternoon?





SimpleWatchMan said:


> CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN - Page 207


Right, that post was what made me ask. As I've said, I thought most of the posts were civil, made interesting points, asked pointed questions, and didn't fit the reasons CMSgt Bo stated. That's why I was wondering if something happened or someone go off a rail since I logged off yesterday afternoon.


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## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

Mine also runs at or slightly better than the timing card. I don't have a timegrapher (need to get one!) but I wanted to see if the numbers on the card were "real."

Wearing my Ocean Rover 12+ hours it loses about 1.5 sec. per day. If I then set it face up overnight, a position according to the chart that loses time, it does continue to lose time.
So over the past 2 weeks I've tried storing it overnight in positions that according to my chart gain time. For my watch 9H is +2 and 6H is +3 on the chart (measurement 6.)
Sure enough, if I wear the watch, then set it overnight 9H my daily change is +/- less than a second.

The watch really does gain or lose the amount stated for that position according to my chart.

Still wearing mine daily since I received it, I love it!


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

It‘s time to chime in again, not on Ginault and their watches but on those countless childish bickering posts and continued trolling here and on other sub fora. It is possible that we, the moderators, gave too much free reign for too long but now the time has come to stop. Now that we decided to issue a first ban, I’d like to assure you all that this will not be the last one if the bickering and trolling, name calling, incitement.....you name it.....does not immediately stop.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

RNHC said:


> Right, that post was what made me ask. As I've said, I thought most of the posts were civil, made interesting points, asked pointed questions, and didn't fit the reasons CMSgt Bo stated. That's why I was wondering if something happened or someone go off a rail since I logged off yesterday afternoon.


You're kidding, right? When we look at the same posts we see another off-topic Ginault dumpster fire being fed by the Usual Suspects. We get it, you don't like/trust/believe Ginault, and you've made that abundantly clear in almost every thread where Ginault is even casually mentioned over the past 12 months. Enough is enough, it's not constructive and it creates a toxic environment; we have over 200 member reports to prove it.

And generally speaking if you've noticed several of your posts have been removed you should probably reevaluate your contributions to this thread (and others) and make adjustments in your future contributions. If you still feel you've done nothing wrong you may be in for a rude awakening.

That being said, this post is not an invitation for discussion. Additionally Moderator actions are not an appropriate topic for discussion and have already led to temp-bannings. So let's get this thread back on topic and keep it on topic.

Thank you


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Purple Hayz said:


> OR owners, can you guys post shots of the timing/testing certs that came with the watches, if you still have them? I've got an idea for some Monte Carlo sims that might prove revealing.


Just out of curiosity, how would you handle the discrepancies between actual data and stated data in your proposed simulation to build the performance profile of Ginault movement?

Since stated data (timing sheet) is more detailed, would you just take the stated data at face value and use that? Or would you adjust the stated data by observed data (albeit less detailed) somehow?


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Well... It even took Great Mike to show up ! C'man boys (and girls -?-) , don't we all have enough problems in real life ? Let's keep enjoying and having a good time with watches ! After all, that is why we are all here ,right ? 

Let the WISery begin !

Where are my photos, pictures, snaps ??

Cheers.

Brother G.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

goyoneuff said:


> Well... It even took Great Mike to show up ! C'man boys (and girls -?-) , don't we all have enough problems in real life ? Let's keep enjoying and having a good time with watches ! After all, that is why we are all here ,right ?
> 
> Let the WISery begin !
> 
> ...


Agree 100%.

I come here for fun...to "talk" about and learn about watches. It's pretty disheartening to me to see the constant anger and hostility...about a watch. If I don't like a watch or a watch company I just refrain from commenting because "someone" does like that watch/company. That's their prerogative and why should I care?

Let's be civil and have fun!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well disappointingly after I checked for magnetization and timing some time ago (only a simple phone app Lepsi / Hairspring) which did indicate around the same regulation as the average on my timecard from Ginault, I re-tested today and I found that my original OR has since been magnetized and is indicating an error of +20s face up. 

The culprit I presume was a budget watch winder which I didn't consider at first but now I realize that this is the second watch that I have found magnetized and running fast.

After de mag it is now indicating around +10s face up which although far from it's original setting is close enough for me being as I don't wish to attempt a DIY regulation and hate sending my watches out.

When listening to both watches the sound is actually at a higher frequency than my latest OR which is logical as we are measuring frequency but at that amount of variation I wouldn't have thought it would be so obvious so does this sound normal?


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Request for some BGW9 Maxi dial (date and dateless) pics por favor.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> Request for some BGW9 Maxi dial (date and dateless) pics por favor.












Like these? 










Best regards,


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Like these?
> 
> Best regards,


Thank you

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)




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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

I think that the difference of the accuracy stated in the chart and the accuracy observed in real life isn't something to worry about. It simply means that the in-lab test and your wearing habit don't share the same patents.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Also, accuracy can change over time. My OR, worn essentially 24/7 for the first month, ran at 0.5s/d; the card average was 0.6s/day. Fantastic!

Then it started to drift. Today, 11 months later, it's 4.5s/day. 

I've seen the same phenomenon in ETA 2824's that I've owned.

So I would not put much stock in comparisons of what it says on the card with how the watch performs months later.


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Here is mine. Look forward to seeing the results from your idea.
> 
> Best regards,


Thanks for posting. That's an unusual approach to "zeroing in" a movement--most I've tested (and seen) run slightly fast dial up (or in both horizontal pos), if anything, with offsetting errors in 6H and 3H. Here's a typical 313x:









But you cannot argue with the results. As you can see, once dialed in, your watch keeps very good time, and that is an impressive delta (diff b/w fastest and slowest rates). The only (minor) concern I'd mention is that said delta is between your two horizontal positions, which would ideally be much closer. Too large a difference may signal an issue with the balance staff pivots. Real-world usage shouldn't be too far off the unweighted mean (X in your cert), but you could lose a second (or so) per day (assuming watch still follows the week 6 measurements), since three of the four most popular worn positions are running slightly slow. Having 6H run a bit fast probably offsets a fair amount of that, especially if your someone who drives a lot (or holds his coffee in his left hand). What kind of numbers are you getting on the wrist?



RNHC said:


> There are timing certifications posted in the Reviews forum. FYI, some owners reported that the actual accuracy differed from what was on the timing sheets.


The vast majority of them will. It's all but mathematical certainty. I use _weighted _averages in my rate projections for a reason. Very few watches worn by humans spend 20% of their day dial up (CH), another 20% dial down (FH), still another crown up (3H), crown left (6H), etc.



mnejmantowicz said:


> Both of my OCs where no where close to the timing certificates.


See above. Chances are you have at least one or two slow and fast positions (check your timeslip), so you can always use a little nightstand regulation to even things out. If you're feeling really brave, and find that your wear pattern leads to a consistently slow (or fast) running watch, you can always crack her open and tweak the eccentric screw...



Radar1 said:


> Mine runs slightly better than the timing card specified. Obviously these things can deviate over time. COSC standard timekeeping for mine. I think I can live with that.


:-d The bar for "COSC timekeeping" is pretty high, mate. Folks tend to focus on the average daily rate while ignoring (or overlooking) the fact that 6/7 of COSC parameters are _variances _(b/w positions and over time), not averages. If it were as simple as having timkeeping errors that averaged out to just a few seconds per day (+/-), then both of these watches would be chronometers, lol:









Of course, any watch that averages at or close to 0 s.p.d. is better than one than that loses (or gains) half a minute, but if I had a dollar for every post about a Seiko 7S with "COSC accuracy," I could probably retire tomorrow.



deoreo said:


> Mine also runs at or slightly better than the timing card. I don't have a timegrapher (need to get one!) but I wanted to see if the numbers on the card were "real."
> 
> Wearing my Ocean Rover 12+ hours it loses about 1.5 sec. per day. If I then set it face up overnight, a position according to the chart that loses time, it does continue to lose time.
> So over the past 2 weeks I've tried storing it overnight in positions that according to my chart gain time. For my watch 9H is +2 and 6H is +3 on the chart (measurement 6.)
> Sure enough, if I wear the watch, then set it overnight 9H my daily change is +/- less than a second.


Interesting. Yours is the second to run a bit slow dial up. Nothing wrong with this of course, it's just not something I see all that often. Feel free to post a screenie of the slip if you'd like me to include it in my simulations.



RNHC said:


> Just out of curiosity, how would you handle the discrepancies between actual data and stated data in your proposed simulation to build the performance profile of Ginault movement?
> 
> Since stated data (timing sheet) is more detailed, would you just take the stated data at face value and use that? Or would you adjust the stated data by observed data (albeit less detailed) somehow?


As I stated earlier, I weight the different positional rates to obtain realistic, but _standardized_, estimates of "on the wrist" timekeeping. Easier that polling folks with different jobs, sleep patterns, watch winders, etc....

I can only do so much with these simple time-sheets though. My measurement methodology is a bit more involved, and requires a timegrapher (which every mechanical watch guy should have anyway) b-)



59er said:


> Well disappointingly after I checked for magnetization and timing some time ago (only a simple phone app Lepsi / Hairspring) which did indicate around the same regulation as the average on my timecard from Ginault, I re-tested today and I found that my original OR has since been magnetized and is indicating an error of +20s face up.
> 
> The culprit I presume was a budget watch winder which I didn't consider at first but now I realize that this is the second watch that I have found magnetized and running fast.
> 
> After de mag it is now indicating around +10s face up which although far from it's original setting is close enough for me being as I don't wish to attempt a DIY regulation and hate sending my watches out.


Come on man be bold. ;-) That's a 2824 clone you've got there. In other words, fine regulator screw:









One or two notches counter-clockwise (each notch is about 5 seconds/day) and you'll be right as rain. :-!

Depending on how much pressure you have to apply, you may stall the balance temporarily, but that's no cause for alarm.



lvt said:


> I think that the difference of the accuracy stated in the chart and the accuracy observed in real life isn't something to worry about. It simply means that the in-lab test and your wearing habit don't share the same patents.


^YES


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Purple Hayz said:


> Come on man be bold. ;-) That's a 2824 clone you've got there. In other words, fine regulator screw:
> 
> View attachment 12715905
> 
> ...


OK I'll give it a day or two then re-check timing and then have a go at adjusting.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I am very happy to see this thread taking a turn for the better!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Good night.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

rosborn said:


> I am very happy to see this thread taking a turn for the better!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Yup, thank goodness and good riddance. :-!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Here we go.










Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

Purple Hayz-

Here is my timing sheet


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

My 181175LSILN Impressions so far.










Well this is my first impressions of my newly arrived OR.

This isn't really a review as such as I'm not going into the company history, manufacturing processes or providence of the company or the watch or testing the performance with specialised equipment but simply the impressions of a run of the mill watch buyer.

Firstly I'll put my thoughts into perspective for those that are interested.

The reason that Ginault watches came to my attention is simply that my first love is a 5 digit Rollie Sub.

This watch will be mainly of interest to fans of that particular watch or those similar.

I did consider on multiple occasions to buy a Rollie and may eventually buy one but for now it doesn't suit due to multiple points of view.

Firstly let me make it clear I have no problem with what price a Rolex commands either new or used as it is without a doubt a fine product and I applaud the engineering and design and of course it has now become a luxury brand with a good re-sale potential so a high retail price would be expected but for me I like to wear my watches in most situations and that includes working which can be brutal in my line of work and also I like to be comfortable wearing my watch in any location and that sometimes includes less savoury neighbourhoods and often associating with many that are less fortunate financially than me so those situations make it less comfortable both in safety and in appearance/perception to my associates at the time.

If I was happy to put my watch in a safe and only bring it out on special occasions then there would be a Rollie in there now but right now that's not how I want to proceed.

So&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;Over the last few years I have searched for every and any watch that is similar to the 5 Digit Sub, I've bought a few and simply viewed most on-line and at various outlets but none ever quite scratched the itch. Most were simply too cheap looking in design and more importantly fit and finish. Of late there have been some close contenders with the Steinhart OMV which I found heavy, too flat on the wrist and a little bland with its matt dial and the non-tapering bracelet felt too wide on the wrist so I sold that on after a few months. The Squale 20's and more recently the 30's as well as the Steinhart 39mm versions of their divers which again came close but thick rimmed indices and bracelet fit and profiles just gave them a less refined look than the Rollie. There was of course probably another dozen Homages out there that caught my attention but not for long as most had some shortfall or another.

So to clarify my decision to buy this particular model my reasons are these, Firstly I have had my first OR (181070GSLN) for some time now and it has become my favourite watch, perfect size, weight, works well with it's original bracelet but looks great on various straps as well, hasn't missed a beat and should be easily maintained due to it's movement being pretty much a 2824 and the big one is of course the closest design and construction to the 5 Digit Rollie.

My dealings with Ginault have been easy with quick response times and an easy transaction when I bought my first.

My Grail watch would be made up of components of both a 5 and 6 digit Rollie Date Sub. I love the finer details of the 5 digit case with its narrower lugs and crown Guard, I love the maxi-dial and hands of the 6 digit version or 5 digit LV but prefer the black bezel insert but I also like the blue lume and the glide-lock type clasp of the 6 digit Sub, unlike many I love the Cyclops and for me that is one of the classic features of a Sub.

So with that combo what I end up with is basically a 5 digit 16610LV but with a LN insert. Blue lume and a glidelock clasp. The sword hands give this watch a huge benefit over most of the Homages as it gives the Ginault some individuality from the scores of Homages that come with Mercedes ands but still retains most of the features that I like.

So being that this combo isn't available from Rolex and even if it was wouldn't suit due to my reasons stated above I contacted John at Ginault and asked if this combo may one day be available of if it could be built as a special order.

He responded telling me that coincidentally they had just completed the first batch of a new model (181175LSILN) that was basically exactly as I had described. As usual I did procrastinate for a few weeks and by then had missed the first batch but contacted them again and managed to get one with a minimum wait.

For those that want to know I did ask and got a discount and paid just over $900 for this watch.

So now I have the watch, first impressions at the time of unpacking was the same as when I got my first one, well packaged and protected for shipping, great fit and finish and nothing to disappoint.




























The thing that very slightly diminished my excitement was the fact that after having worn the earlier watch was that the white lume has slightly less visual impact than the golden lume, if this version had been available right from the start I would not have bought the first version but since owning the earlier one I have learned to love the Sand lume and am now glad that I bought that one as I now have both styles to enjoy.

So after a few days of switching between both watches I can say that I love both of them and it's a dilemma as to which one I put on and as lame as it sounds I have been switching between them multiple times through the day.

The new watch has more of the things that I like in a watch as per my notes above but I miss the domed crystal and additional colour of the sand lume but when I wear the original watch I miss the Cyclops, date and white lume so I think that having both is the only way to go for me.




























Time and date setting is solid and easy and feels much like any of the ETA 2824/36 that I've owned.

So I guess by now if you've managed to get this far through my ramblings you will know that I'm still a fan and look forward to much enjoyment from my OR's.

In summary I think this watch will suit and be popular with Submariner fans either as an alternative to the high outlay or as one to wear when the Rollie is in the safe but will also equally suit anyone simply wanting a nice mechanical diver that has great asthetics and pleasing fit and finish.

A few pics taken this morning but sorry my pic skills are very limited and done on a phone camera so don't really do the watch justice.










Bracelet and clasp beautiful and functions as it should, the glidelock style clasp slides easily to change micro settings and locks solidly.










This one has a different case back engraving than my first OR which looks good and has the relevant data.



















This version is of course much more of a direct Homage to the Rollie but for me that is a good thing.

So overall I am still a big fan of the Ginault offerings and will be keeping an eye on what they have install for us and for those that are not offended by Homages or concerned with sales blurb I can see no reason why any potential buyer would not be as happy as I am with my Ginaults.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Excellent !!

.

Pretty much same thoughts here... Some small different views that I will poitn to one day... Maybe soon? ;-)

The biggest deal IMHO here is the fit and finish, specially and above all, of the SEL !! No other company that is not Rolex in an acceptable price range produces that right now !!!

Cheers.

G.


59er said:


> My 181175LSILN Impressions so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

59er said:


> My 181175LSILN Impressions so far.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love your review. Thanks for sharing. :-!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

What do you think about this dark spot on the hour hand? Should this be replaced free of charge under warranty by Ginault?

Best regards,


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> What do you think about this dark spot on the hour hand? Should this be replaced free of charge under warranty by Ginault?
> 
> Best regards,


i'm sure they probably will...

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> i'm sure they probably will...
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Thanks. They do not consider it an issue/defect.

Best regards,


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks. They do not consider it an issue/defect.
> 
> Best regards,


I'd just note to them how active you are on WUS and especially in the Ginault threads, and while they may not consider it a defect, wouldn't it be great to help you out? Then note how this will get them some good free publicity in the threads showing how they stand behind their product.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

He will. Just let him know.


GarbanzoNegro said:


> What do you think about this dark spot on the hour hand? Should this be replaced free of charge under warranty by Ginault?
> 
> Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> I'd just note to them how active you are on WUS and especially in the Ginault threads, and while they may not consider it a defect, wouldn't it be great to help you out? Then note how this will get them some good free publicity in the threads showing how they stand behind their product.


Thanks again for your input.

Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks. Already did. As said before, they do not consider it an issue/defect. They even said that they can also see these shadows on a Rolex. 

Will talk to them again and try to negotiate it. 

Best regards,


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

How can you even see that on the watch? It must be so small as to be virtually invisible.


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## thomlad54 (Oct 3, 2006)

Mine says hello.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Toonces said:


> How can you even see that on the watch? It must be so small as to be virtually invisible.


Don't know. Did see it once and now it is almost impossible not to notice it.

Since it annoys me, given the fact that Ginault does not recognize it as an issue, I will pay for the hour hand (plus shipping posts to/from their EU service center). Ginault kindly offered to pay for the labour costs.

Best regards,


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I may have posted this pic already, but I like it:


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Don't know. Did see it once and now it is almost impossible not to notice it.
> 
> Since it annoys me, given the fact that Ginault does not recognize it as an issue, I will pay for the hour hand (plus shipping posts to/from their EU service center). Ginault kindly offered to pay for the labour costs.
> 
> Best regards,


Ah my friend you are slipping down the slippery slide of watch OCD which there is no return.

I understand your concern but I try not to worry about tiny defects as there will invariably be such things on any watch you buy and using macro shots is opening the door to certain insanity.

I'm glad that Ginault have offered some assistance but be careful as your watchmaker may return greater defects than the one you are trying to remove.

Good luck either way and keep enjoying your OR.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Ah my friend you are slipping down the slippery slide of watch OCD which there is no return.
> 
> I understand your concern but I try not to worry about tiny defects as there will invariably be such things on any watch you buy and using macro shots is opening the door to certain insanity.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your advice. This is, indeed, one of my major concerns...

Best regards,


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Some of you may find this article on homages to be of interest.

https://www.noduswatches.com/nodus-blog/to-homage-or-not-to-homage

Note that Nodus claims American assembly: "American-Assembled

Each watch is inspected and assembled in our Los Angeles-based workshop to ensure that they meet our strict standards for quality. Our team filters out and corrects any component that has any aesthetic or mechanical defects."

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cigarbob (Jul 19, 2015)

hwa said:


> Some of you may find this article on homages to be of interest.
> 
> https://www.noduswatches.com/nodus-blog/to-homage-or-not-to-homage
> 
> ...


An interesting article.

The assembly they are taking about doesn't seem to have anything to do with their movements. Nodus is very clear that their movements are either Swiss or Japanese.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, but they do claim to regulate their movements (either STP1-11 or NH35A) in 4 positions.

AFAIK, very few manufacturers in the under $1K price range bother to regulate their movements. In fact I can't think of any examples other than Ginault (under $1K when discounts are available) and Nodus. Any others???


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

hwa said:


> Some of you may find this article on homages to be of interest.
> 
> https://www.noduswatches.com/nodus-blog/to-homage-or-not-to-homage
> 
> ...


Yes an interesting article which reminds us that it is all up to individual points of view and how we interpret a homage.

I can see either side of the argument and agree that many designs are blatant copies and others are truly similar in nature only.

If we are honest we know that calling something a "Homage" is mostly sugar coating a copy, I used to make a reasonable living playing in various bands doing shows based on a particular artists material, dressing similarly to them and playing their material exclusively, we called those bands "tribute" or "concept" bands but of course we were being copies in order to sell the shows.

During those years I made more money and had bigger audiences and enjoyed a way higher standard of working conditions than any of the original bands that I was in but in doing that I took no income from the original artist, claimed no credit for the composition of the material and did no damage to the credibility or reputation of the original artist and in fact no doubt added at least some sales of their releases.

I feel the same way about the various Homages as I don't see anyone that is genuinely a potential customer of a Luxury brand buying a Homage "Instead" of the Original and the many who do buy one are either adding to their collection or would likely never buy the original even if Homages were not available.

There are many who passionately oppose the production or certain products as we know is the case with watches but I suspect those same people have no opinion at all about their toasters or their washing machines which in many cases are mm perfect copies of more expensive brands but those mundane items simply don't attract passionate interest in most at least.

For me in this particular case the Ginault is VERY similar to a particular luxury brand model which is at least 50% of why I am interested in it and that together with reported reviews prompted me to purchase it.

With regards as to who and where it it produced I have no preference as long as it is a quality product and functions as per it's intended use and as I have previously noted I pay no attention to sales literature and claims and if asked my advice is always never listen to anything that someone it telling you about something if they are the same ones trying to sell it to you.

As with most things most of what we all argue about is just difference of opinion and perspective and rarely based on solid facts.


----------



## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

@djk949 Manchester Watch Works Beluga. A fantastic watch full of fantastic specs, real ETA and superb finish at a very realistic price well under $1000. So yeah... I think there are many overpriced homages, the Beluga and the Marine Dive proves it !

There are many homages and then some real homages.

Gilt? Nobody does it like a MKII Kingston. 
Mid case profile? Docs NTH are simply the best. 
Value for money? Marine Tisell Dive ( yeah, Dive, with out the R).
Swiss value proposition? Squale and they even cured the Squalitis.

I can continue...

Where I , and read here, "I", think Gina goes beyond all those many others, is in the fit and finish of the mid case and SEL. The bezel and action. And, the fantastic print and color depth on the dials.

Is it perfect? Nope. Do I wish it had an ETA inside ? You bet ! Does it bother me that it has something ETA -ish ? Nope, because I know if it fails it could be quickly repaired by even a semi competent watchmaker.

Cherrios !

G


Avo said:


> Yes, but they do claim to regulate their movements (either STP1-11 or NH35A) in 4 positions.
> 
> AFAIK, very few manufacturers in the under $1K price range bother to regulate their movements. In fact I can't think of any examples other than Ginault (under $1K when discounts are available) and Nodus. Any others???


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Purple Hayz said:


> Come on man be bold. ;-) That's a 2824 clone you've got there. In other words, fine regulator screw:
> 
> View attachment 12715905
> 
> ...


Well I re-tested again today and got way different results, I guess I need to get a proper timer as the phone app is probably not reliable enough to base regulating or not decisions.

Dial up gave +4 secs, Dial down gave -0.7 secs and crown down gave +1.4secs.

At these numbers and using the Phone ap only I won't be tinkering with the OR at this point.

Now back to enjoying my watch.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

59er said:


> Dial up gave +4 secs, Dial down gave -0.7 secs and crown down gave +1.4secs.


Not bad, it's very near COCS performance.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

lvt said:


> Not bad, it's very near COCS performance.


Yeah I'm glad I didn't muck about with it, my last measurement was likely user error


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

59er said:


> Well I re-tested again today and got way different results, I guess I need to get a proper timer as the phone app is probably not reliable enough to base regulating or not decisions.
> 
> Dial up gave +4 secs, Dial down gave -0.7 secs and crown down gave +1.4secs.
> 
> ...


Those are more than respectable numbers, mate. An ACEtimer (all you really need, IMO) can be had for just over C-note, last I checked.

Be careful, though. Buying a chainsaw has a way of motivating you to find new trees to "test" it on, if you catch my drift.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Purple Hayz said:


> Those are more than respectable numbers, mate. An ACEtimer (all you really need, IMO) can be had for just over C-note, last I checked.
> 
> Be careful, though. Buying a chainsaw has a way of motivating you to find new trees to "test" it on, if you catch my drift.


Yeah I've been going to get one of those for some time, and a WR tester but have resisted due to what you are saying.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

A nice morning in the rainforest with the new OR.


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Mine came up in rotation and been wearing for a week now. I have to admit this is a very nice example in the sea of subs, and I've had a few.

In the Paradise Tree:

​


----------



## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

I like the Ginault but I tried emailing them but they never got back to me. Also did you guys pay full price?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

59er said:


> A nice morning in the rainforest with the new OR.


Awesome watch did you end up paying full price?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

lvt said:


> Let's say, if one must go so which one will stay and why ?


Blue lume... just not as common and nicer. Did you pay full price?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Rbelloni1 said:


> Blue lume... just not as common and nicer. Did you pay full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not mine, I have no idea.

But I guess that it won't hurt paying less than the MRSP


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Rbelloni1 said:


> I like the Ginault but I tried emailing them but they never got back to me. Also did you guys pay full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I e-mailed them asking them for a discount and they answered VERY quick.

Later, they are not that quick in e-mailing back. May take up to a week to get a reply.

Best regards,


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Rbelloni1 said:


> Awesome watch did you end up paying full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks,

No I asked for and recieved a 40% "Review" discount.

Keep in mind they don't and from what I know have never ever asked for a "Good" review, just a review so they can't be fairer than that.


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

Rbelloni1 said:


> Awesome watch did you end up paying full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What model is this with the date window and the blue lume?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

thomlad54 said:


> Mine says hello.


What model number is this with the date and blue lume?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## T-hunter (Dec 26, 2009)

Rbelloni1 said:


> Blue lume... just not as common and nicer. Did you pay full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Rbelloni1 said:


> What model number is this with the date and blue lume?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-coupon-7275-operaion-manual-4573337.html


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

T-hunter said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-coupon-7275-operaion-manual-4573337.html


Thanks for the link. I needed neither, but WOW, the photos are beautiful. I don't recollect a micro brand putting up such dazzling photos of their products. Another feather in Ginaults cap. They're serious all right! Those are the kinds of photos that sell the product.

RD

EDIT: Looking at these pics, I could collect just these. I really like them. To anyone: The Steiny 39 is a step-down (so why do I want one a dem too)


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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

Great question!

I only own the Chr.Ward. But I'll say this. The Ward seems totally solid and I'd hold it up to a Ginault any day. But, it's not the same watch. At the same price point, I'd say pick the one you like better. If you can get a significantly better deal on one over the other....ooooffff, tough, but I'd likely go with the better deal. The Ward is solid. Just from the pictures, at the same price, I'd go Ward. But...damn, either is a great watch at deal price.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Hola.

Read this short post. Hope it helps..

Cheers.

G.


goyoneuff said:


> @djk949 Manchester Watch Works Beluga. A fantastic watch full of fantastic specs, real ETA and superb finish at a very realistic price well under $1000. So yeah... I think there are many overpriced homages, the Beluga and the Marine Dive proves it !
> 
> There are many homages and then some real homages.
> 
> ...





Rbelloni1 said:


> I have a question of rating by quality and not personal looks preferences.... what watch is best Squale1545, CW Trident, Ginault, Steinhart, NTH, Glycine combat sub, or Tisell....?????
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Rbelloni1 said:


> I have a question of rating by quality and not personal looks preferences.... what watch is best Squale1545, CW Trident, Ginault, Steinhart, NTH, Glycine combat sub, or Tisell....?????
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

Toonces said:


> Great question!
> 
> I only own the Chr.Ward. But I'll say this. The Ward seems totally solid and I'd hold it up to a Ginault any day. But, it's not the same watch. At the same price point, I'd say pick the one you like better. If you can get a significantly better deal on one over the other....ooooffff, tough, but I'd likely go with the better deal. The Ward is solid. Just from the pictures, at the same price, I'd go Ward. But...damn, either is a great watch at deal price.


Yea I think I might get the Ginault first and do a thorough review comparing it to my higher end watches, since there's so much hype behind them right now and I love the look. Then in 2018 when Ward moves there logo back to the 12 where it belongs I'll get the Trident I just wish the Trident 39mm came Certified.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Rbelloni1 said:


> Yea I think I might get the Ginault first and do a thorough review comparing it to my higher end watches, since there's so much hype behind them right now and I love the look. Then in 2018 when Ward moves there logo back to the 12 where it belongs I'll get the Trident I just wish the Trident 39mm came Certified.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I love the trident Divers and GMT and would have bought one long ago except for the one detail that I just can't warm to and that's the teardrop hour hand.

Other than that I think they are a really classy watch but I believe they are still a bit more expensive than the OR?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Ah my friend you are slipping down the slippery slide of watch OCD which there is no return.
> 
> I understand your concern but I try not to worry about tiny defects as there will invariably be such things on any watch you buy and using macro shots is opening the door to certain insanity.
> 
> ...












Sent on Monday my OR to Ginault's service center in Berlin to replace the hour hand. Hope to get it back before Christmas (over the phone they confirmed that it is possible).

No complaints about the "substitute watch", but I miss Ginault's clasp adjustability.

Best regards,


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Sent on Monday my OR to Ginault's service center in Berlin to replace the hour hand. Hope to get it back before Christmas (over the phone they confirmed that it is possible).
> 
> No complaints about the "substitute watch", but I miss Ginault's clasp adjustability.
> 
> Best regards,


How have you liked the Ginault so far?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> I love the trident Divers and GMT and would have bought one long ago except for the one detail that I just can't warm to and that's the teardrop hour hand.
> 
> Other than that I think they are a really classy watch but I believe they are still a bit more expensive than the OR?


The Trident may be more expensive than the discounted OR. But CW runs sales periodically where the Trident is marked 15% off regular price.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Rbelloni1 said:


> How have you liked the Ginault so far?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So far, so good. My only concern was the hour hand and this is, hopefully, going to be solved soon. 

I have no other experiences with other brands, except for my Exp I.

Best regards,


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> So far, so good. My only concern was the hour hand and this is, hopefully, going to be solved soon.
> 
> I have no other experiences with other brands, except for my Exp I.
> 
> Best regards,


In answer to the question posed...I love my Ocean Rover. I have had a lot of watches over the years. A fact I am not proud of. I have had everything from a Seiko SKX... to a TAG Heuer 500M Aquarcer chronograph, and those are just the autos - probably 40 different watches in all. I can tell you that in each and every case I was looking to sell or trade every one of those watches within a month. Not so with my Ocean Rover.

Dare I say this is a keeper?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

This says a lot...

A person who's experience has only been with Rolex really likes the Gina?

Say more we need ?




GarbanzoNegro said:


> So far, so good. My only concern was the hour hand and this is, hopefully, going to be solved soon.
> 
> I have no other experiences with other brands, except for my Exp I.
> 
> Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

goyoneuff said:


> This says a lot...
> 
> A person who's experience has only been with Rolex really likes the Gina?
> 
> Say more we need ?


You want the whole story?

Here it goes: I was born in...

Seriously, my father gave me an Exp I in 2002. This has been my one and only watch for the last 15 years. I have been wearing it 24/7 and have even bought a new original bracelet and replaced the old stretched one to help fund partially the new one.

This year, I got interested in the Submariner, but I could not justify to myself paying that price for a watch, which, among other issues, I did not know if it would be too big for me.

So, started looking for other alternatives (no date and 39-40 mms were a must) and found that Steinhart was going to release a 39 mm version of their Ocean line. I asked them if they were going to launch a non date version and they said no.

Finally, found the OR and, after sending an e-mail asking about a discount, ordered it.

Size was better as I expected. The clasp is just wonderful (still a bot concerned about IP).

No issue with all the text on the dial, although I also would prefer a cleaner version.

The edges of the case are a bit too sharp, and so are some interior parts of the bracelet, which is the biggest difference to my Rolex. (BTW, any idea on how to smooth them, is welcome!).

The issue with the tiny dark spot on hour hand is, hopefully, going to be solved next week.

Summarizing, I found a 40 mm, no date, dive watch with a rotating bezel that I use a lot, with some similarities to the Submariner but not looking the same, as other brands paying "more homage", if you know what I mean.

Best regards,


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> You want the whole story?
> 
> Here it goes: I was born in...
> 
> ...


Good story. Thanks for sharing. ;-)


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

Thank you very much for your story !

What I was trying to say is that with someone that only had experience with the one brand Gina is going to be always compared against, your experience and point of view says a lot ! The way I see it, you have not been biased by any other "homage" but actually by THE Rolex brand. Which is, I hope all agree, the ultimate comparison we could potentially make !

Cheers.

G.


GarbanzoNegro said:


> You want the whole story?
> 
> Here it goes: I was born in...
> 
> ...


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Very close to joining the cault of Ginault. Need to see for myself how these are. Can't decide between the gold or the white lume. How are the bracelets holding up? Other then the marks people seem to get from the glidelock, are they showing other marks easily in day to day wear?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> Very close to joining the cault of Ginault. Need to see for myself how these are. Can't decide between the gold or the white lume. How are the bracelets holding up? Other then the marks people seem to get from the glidelock, are they showing other marks easily in day to day wear?


You get marks as soon as you use the watch. O already got many scratches on the bracelet and clasp, as well as one ding on the bezel.

I have always enjoyed my watch and never worried about scratches (they are polished when the watch is sent for a service).

Best regards,


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> You get marks as soon as you use the watch. O already got many scratches on the bracelet and clasp, as well as one ding on the bezel.
> 
> I have always enjoyed my watch and never worried about scratches (they are polished when the watch is sent for a service).
> 
> Best regards,


Thanks for the reply. I'm fairly easy on my watches and what Iv'e noticed is that some tend to show marks easier then others. Just curious how the Ginault hold up.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm fairly easy on my watches and what Iv'e noticed is that some tend to show marks easier then others. Just curious how the Ginault hold up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I mostly wear my watches on bracelets and can't say one holds up better than another but the beauty of a SS bracelet is that it's relatively easy to do a quick re-brush and bring them back as good as new. Plenty of youtube videos showing how with Bergeon blocks or even just fine emery/sandpaper.

I've been wearing one of my Ginaults for a few months now and it still is looking good but of course it all depends on how rough a treatment your particular watch is treated and how OCD you are about marks and scratches.


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## goyoneuff (Dec 9, 2007)

It is called Wabi and it gives/builds character. Building your own patina for the years to come ! 

Say NO to polish ! 

Attn.

Brother G.


GarbanzoNegro said:


> You get marks as soon as you use the watch. O already got many scratches on the bracelet and clasp, as well as one ding on the bezel.
> 
> I have always enjoyed my watch and never worried about scratches (they are polished when the watch is sent for a service).
> 
> Best regards,





mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the reply. I'm fairly easy on my watches and what Iv'e noticed is that some tend to show marks easier then others. Just curious how the Ginault hold up.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk





59er said:


> I mostly wear my watches on bracelets and can't say one holds up better than another but the beauty of a SS bracelet is that it's relatively easy to do a quick re-brush and bring them back as good as new. Plenty of youtube videos showing how with Bergeon blocks or even just fine emery/sandpaper.
> 
> I've been wearing one of my Ginaults for a few months now and it still is looking good but of course it all depends on how rough a treatment your particular watch is treated and how OCD you are about marks and scratches.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Very close to joining the cault of Ginault. Need to see for myself how these are. Can't decide between the gold or the white lume. How are the bracelets holding up? Other then the marks people seem to get from the glidelock, are they showing other marks easily in day to day wear?


I purchased mine pre-owned; so, it may have had some scratches on the bracelet/clasp when I got it but, to be compltely honest, mine has no more or fewer scratches than any other watch I've owned. I've been wearing mine 24/7 since I got it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks for the replies guys. 

Really torn between the gold vs white lume. Feel like the white lume may be a bit more versatile however I really like the warmth of the gold. Also had a C Ward c60 vintage I really liked however it wore to big. I'm usually not one for "vintage" lume however on a few watches (including this one) it really seems to work.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the replies guys.
> 
> Really torn between the gold vs white lume. Feel like the white lume may be a bit more versatile however I really like the warmth of the gold. Also had a C Ward c60 vintage I really liked however it wore to big. I'm usually not one for "vintage" lume however on a few watches (including this one) it really seems to work.


That one really is a tough call, I personally don't like "Vintage" lume as it's usually tobacco or coffee colored and looks overdone to my eye but at the time of buying my first Ginault there wasn't as many options as there is now so I was interested in the date with white lume and flat crystal/cyclops (more expensive) and the no-date with sand lume and I did spend significant time trying to decide but I really chose the sand lume version as I wanted something a little different and the domed crystal attracted me and it was a little cheaper.

My overall preference generally is for white lume but the sand lume gives the watch some nice character and contrast and although given one choice only I would probably have bought the white lume but now I have both I really couldn't say that one is better than the other, the white lume does look crisper and cleaner but the snd lume is just more interesting so as said it's a hard call.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

59er said:


> That one really is a tough call, I personally don't like "Vintage" lume as it's usually tobacco or coffee colored and looks overdone to my eye but at the time of buying my first Ginault there wasn't as many options as there is now so I was interested in the date with white lume and flat crystal/cyclops (more expensive) and the no-date with sand lume and I did spend significant time trying to decide but I really chose the sand lume version as I wanted something a little different and the domed crystal attracted me and it was a little cheaper.
> 
> My overall preference generally is for white lume but the sand lume gives the watch some nice character and contrast and although given one choice only I would probably have bought the white lume but now I have both I really couldn't say that one is better than the other, the white lume does look crisper and cleaner but the snd lume is just more interesting so as said it's a hard call.


Thanks for the side by side pic. Ginault really did a good job with the gold lume. Its very different then other "vintage" lume.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

mplsabdullah said:


> Thanks for the side by side pic. Ginault really did a good job with the gold lume. Its very different then other "vintage" lume.


It's the nicest "vintage" lume I have seen - by a wide margin.


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## Alpineboy (Apr 29, 2016)

Radar1 said:


> It's the nicest "vintage" lume I have seen - by a wide margin.
> 
> View attachment 12732691


+1 and if you look closely, it is not regular lume paint but fine particles making up the hour markers.


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

mplsabdullah.....
Agree on the lume. It doesn't look like it's been fake antiqued. They managed to come up with their own shade that captures a bit of the vintage look without looking like they're trying too hard. It's a good subtle color.

The size wears really easy. I sort of thought I was a 42mm watch guy until I got the Rover. Not any more. 40mm or less is my watch number now.

Question for another thread.....when did watches get so big??? Just happy there seems to be a trend to shrink them a little lately.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Alpineboy said:


> +1 and if you look closely, it is not regular lume paint but fine particles making up the hour markers.


Yup.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

If I bought this again I would do the sand lume vs bgw9

Was just moaning on the OVM 39 thread how poor the Steiny vintage lume is ? Another big + for Ginault


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

And it's not just another pretty lume.


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## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

It's not faux lume at all. It's in a class of its own.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> That one really is a tough call, I personally don't like "Vintage" lume as it's usually tobacco or coffee colored and looks overdone to my eye but at the time of buying my first Ginault there wasn't as many options as there is now so I was interested in the date with white lume and flat crystal/cyclops (more expensive) and the no-date with sand lume and I did spend significant time trying to decide but I really chose the sand lume version as I wanted something a little different and the domed crystal attracted me and it was a little cheaper.
> 
> My overall preference generally is for white lume but the sand lume gives the watch some nice character and contrast and although given one choice only I would probably have bought the white lume but now I have both I really couldn't say that one is better than the other, the white lume does look crisper and cleaner but the snd lume is just more interesting so as said it's a hard call.


I honestly thought I was the only person who would want two Ocean Rovers. I have the black date (without cyclops) with gold sand lume and also intend on getting a no date blue version with white lune.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

ChristoO said:


> *mplsabdullah.....*
> 
> Agree on the lume. It doesn't look like it's been fake antiqued. They managed to come up with their own shade that captures a bit of the vintage look without looking like they're trying too hard. It's a good subtle color.
> 
> ...


I came to the same conclusion regarding case diameter size. I can't imagine how I ever wore 42MM, or larger, watches.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> And it's not just another pretty lume.
> 
> View attachment 12732737
> 
> ...


I am so glad you "talked" me into getting this watch. It is, far and away, my favorite watch ever.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

You guys are killing me, lol


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> I am so glad you "talked" me into getting this watch. It is, far and away, my favorite watch ever.


It is a beauty, Rob. I am happy you picked one up.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

rosborn said:


> I came to the same conclusion regarding case diameter size. I can't imagine how I ever wore 42MM, or larger, watches.


Although I regarded 40mm as my sweet spot both before and after my Ginault purchase, I sitll own and wear larger watches: right now I have on my 45.5mm Boldr Odyssey:


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> Although I regarded 40mm as my sweet spot both before and after my Ginault purchase, I sitll own and wear larger watches: right now I have on my 45.5mm Boldr Odyssey:
> View attachment 12733191


I've got that pairing too 

Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

Rbelloni1 said:


> I like the Ginault but I tried emailing them but they never got back to me. Also did you guys pay full price?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seem to answer my emails fairly quick, no complaints. My watch ships Monday.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Which version did you get??


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> I honestly thought I was the only person who would want two Ocean Rovers. I have the black date (without cyclops) with gold sand lume and also intend on getting a no date blue version with white lune.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well I am actualy trying hard to resist yet another one as I like so many of the versions.


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

181070gsln. Probably the most popular one ordered, just a guess. Will go nicely along side my Steinhart OVM Maxi, I think.


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## Swayndo (Sep 7, 2017)

Avo said:


> Which version did you get??


Vintage Military.









Sent from my SM-T715 using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Checking out the OR while mowing!


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Anybody have any inside scoop on whether/when Ginault will broaden its offerings beyond the basic black-dialed Subs/Seadwellers? Would love to see some dial variants to go along with the white/vintage lume, date/no-date, insert colors.

Seems a reasonable New Year's wish.

Might I suggest something red, blue, white, yellow, brown, green, etc?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

It's baaack! :-D

New immaculate hour hand.

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

With its substitute:

















So happy!

Best regards,


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> It's baaack! :-D
> 
> New immaculate hour hand.
> 
> Best regards,


Glad you got it sorted, now the only thing left to do is to enjoy!


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> It's baaack! :-D
> 
> New immaculate hour hand.
> 
> Best regards,


That's pretty amazing service! I've never seen anything like that prompt service from any watch brand over such a minuscule issue. Now don't put it on the SF in a week -- You're a lucky duck, you garbanzo ***** you (whatever that is) :-s

3 Cheers for Ginault! Pretty incredible company. I'll buy another one day


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> It's baaack! :-D
> 
> New immaculate hour hand.
> 
> Best regards,


Wow, that was fast!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I really can not make up my mind on the lume preference. I'm certain on one and then I see pic and completely change my mind, then see another pic and change it back the other way, o| lol.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> I really can not make up my mind on the lume preference. I'm certain on one and then I see pic and completely change my mind, then see another pic and change it back the other way, o| lol.


Problem solved...buy one of each!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> Problem solved...buy one of each!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Sounds great however that would create more problems, lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Sounds great however that would create more problems, lol
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I don't think could go wrong either way. Have you decided dare/no date option? I have the date (no cyclops) version which I purchased pre-owned. And, while I love this watch and will never sell it, my only regret is I wish it were the no date option.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> I don't think could go wrong either way. Have you decided dare/no date option? I have the date (no cyclops) version which I purchased pre-owned. And, while I love this watch and will never sell it, my only regret is I wish it were the no date option.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I prefer a date option on my watches and really like how Ginault executed it however I'm strongly leaning towards no date. Nice to not loose that other maxi dot

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yep I expect that I would need to buy another 2 OR's at least to satisfy all of my desires. I love the no-date and would like one with white lume, I also like the no-date sand lume with blue/gold insert so on it goes.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

hwa said:


> Anybody have any inside scoop on whether/when Ginault will broaden its offerings beyond the basic black-dialed Subs/Seadwellers? Would love to see some dial variants to go along with the white/vintage lume, date/no-date, insert colors.
> 
> Seems a reasonable New Year's wish.
> 
> Might I suggest something red, blue, white, yellow, brown, green, etc?


Just saw on another thread that Ginault indicate that they are releasing a GMT mid to late 2018 so that's a good sign that they may be branching into new designs.

Looking forward to what they come up with but it may be detrimental to my bank balance.


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

59er said:


> Just saw on another thread that Ginault indicate that they are releasing a GMT mid to late 2018 so that's a good sign that they may be branching into new designs.
> 
> Looking forward to what they come up with but it may be detrimental to my bank balance.


I think the case and bracelet Will remain unchanged, only movement, bezel and dial text differ.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Case will have to thicken to fit the GMT add-on, no? Sounds like an alternative to the KeyWest from MKII


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

Avo said:


> Which version did you get??


Actually it shipped Friday and it arrived yesterday. Stoked, though I haven't opened the shipping box yet.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

oceanfan said:


> Actually it shipped Friday and it arrived yesterday. Stoked, though I haven't opened the shipping box yet.


Arrived yesterday and you haven't opened it yet, how do you have such restraint?


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Case will have to thicken to fit the GMT add-on, no? Sounds like an alternative to the KeyWest from MKII
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe - it depends on the movement and how they set up the hand stack I think.

I'll be curious about the GMT movement. I know Bernhart modifies the 2836-2 movement with the removal of the "day" mechanism and replacing it with a mechanism to drive a GMT hand. This allows the Bernhart GMT watches to operate like the Rolex GMT, with the independently adjustable Hour hand (in contrast to the more common 2893-2).

I'm of two minds on this practice. On one hand, I really like and prefer the Rolex (and Omega) independent hour hand. It is more practical for multi time zone travel. On the other hand, I have some concerns about after market movement modification. Bernhart has a sterling customer service reputation, but for some reason this is still a concern.

If Ginault could build this movement "in house" (well, at least by not modifying a stock movement), that would be very, very interesting.

If they could build and release it with the same quality as the OR, and in a timely fashion (i.e. pay your money, receive your watch days later, not years) they would certainly be ahead of MKii, who I see as their closest competition in the homage watch market.


----------



## levallois (Jul 25, 2013)

Heck of a watch.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

levallois said:


> Heck of a watch.


Agree.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

For those who still hesitate...


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

For those of you in the U.S. how long did it take from order to delivery?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> For those who still hesitate...


Honestly, if they offer silver spear second hand, which is the same colour as the minute & hour hands, instead of red now, plus drilled through lug holes, it will be perfect and I will pull my trigger on my second Ginault.

Btw, nice lume pic you have there.


----------



## kelt (May 17, 2013)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Honestly, if they offer silver spear second hand, which is the same colour as the minute & hour hands, instead of red now, plus drilled through lug holes, it will be perfect and I will pull my trigger on my second Ginault.
> 
> Btw, nice lume pic you have there.


A less clutered dial would also help to make it perfect:

- Two liner
- drilled lugs
- Blue lume

I don't mind the red second hand, but for readability in low light I'd suggest to have the tip silver.

Where do I order my drilled two liner?


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Let Ginault be Ginault for Gods sake. They're doing a great job. Released a great product. Service is exemplary. Everybody knocks a brand for what they would rather have, yet a multitude like it for what it is. You want something different. Buy something else then. The world of subs is infinite. Take a break for Christmas !  Enjoy your Ginault or......

EDIT: BTW, My Ginault is perfect!


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Ah ... the world of Sub homages (or copies, whatever) is infinite, true. But there are very few that can be on par or better than Ginault’s quality below $1.3K.

No worries. Some of us are just voicing out their ideal Sub, at the highest quality possible and at a reasonable price. After all, it’s good that if Ginault is listening. Who knows, maybe wishes might come true for some of us, in a year or two. :-d

And yes, Ginault is doing a good job, no doubt about it.

Anyway, guys (and gals if any), Merry Christmas and a Happy 2018 New Year to all.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Riddim Driven said:


> Let Ginault be Ginault for Gods sake. They're doing a great job. Released a great product. Service is exemplary. Everybody knocks a brand for what they would rather have, yet a multitude like it for what it is. You want something different. Buy something else then. The world of subs is infinite. Take a break for Christmas !  Enjoy your Ginault or......
> 
> EDIT: BTW, My Ginault is perfect!


Amen! Amen! Amen!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> For those of you in the U.S. how long did it take from order to delivery?


Week(ish).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## SaoDavi (Jan 28, 2014)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Honestly, if they offer silver spear second hand, which is the same colour as the minute & hour hands, instead of red now, plus drilled through lug holes, it will be perfect and I will pull my trigger on my second Ginault.
> 
> Btw, nice lume pic you have there.





kelt said:


> A less clutered dial would also help to make it perfect:
> 
> - Two liner
> - drilled lugs
> ...


Agreed on both counts. Maybe that will be an option when they release their GMT variant.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Would it be possible to replace the Ginault’s movement with a quartz one?

Best regards,


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Would it be possible to replace the Ginault's movement with a quartz one?
> 
> Best regards,


The short answer is with enough time and money, anything is possible.

The long answer is you'd have to find a quartz movement which allowed the hand stack to work and that also centered the crown stem to the crown tube / pendant.

If as straight swap isn't possible, you would likely have to have a custom movement spacer made to center the quartz movement both radially and horizontally in the case.

Not certain why anyone would want to do this, though. Personally, I would pick up a Citizen EcoDrive dive watch. There are a couple models which look pretty good, are affordably priced, and have a solid reputation for performance.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Really enjoy my OR, but my New Year's wish is drilled lugs, 2 liner, and a fully indexed bezel insert. Add an anti-magnetic cage and it would best the impossible to find MKii Fulcrum. 

For now, I am looking forward to seeing what the new GMT looks like when it hits the market.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> The short answer is with enough time and money, anything is possible.
> 
> The long answer is you'd have to find a quartz movement which allowed the hand stack to work and that also centered the crown stem to the crown tube / pendant.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. It was just out of curiosity.

Best regards,


----------



## jorgeledesma (Feb 22, 2016)

Enjoying my _blue smurf_ version. I have not taken it off since last Friday. Bar none the best in class watch. I have the two tone gold/blue Sub and I can safely leave it in the safe and wear my OR without any issues whatsoever. I love showing my other buddies (some Rolex owners as well) and their amazement at this piece and their desire to acquire one for themselves.

*How about a Ginault Explorer for a design concept *

I can just imagine, the same great bracelet and a very tasteful dial and blue lume as well, what a combo would that be and a 200m depth rating, although a 100m rating would be more than enough for me. I read above a GMT might be in works but I think an Explorer version would be more compelling. I think they've proven with the OR that they can handle the design and implementation of this case along with the other bits and pieces of design that give the OR its uniqueness in this section of the market.

*Compared to the Davosa Ternos 40mm
*
I have a Davosa Ternos 40mm officially modified to No Date (on ebay now, shameless plug) which is also a jewel with the 2824-2 and honestly I can't tell the difference between the two as far as accuracy but do note that I had my Davosa officially regulated as well, its not stock. So when comparing it to the Ginault, I must say Ginault did an amazing job to offer their pieces regulated of the bat. I mean, there are some Tudors' out there with a regulated 2824-2 that retail for $2k plus. Did I buy mine with a discount, no, I got it on the bay for a few hundred dollars off retail but would I have paid retail - yes, its that good in humble opinion. Back to the Davosa, the one thing that I must give the Davosa is the bezel, their Bezel turns with a Rolex Sub feel to it without a doubt. Although, I don't like ceramic bezel and I prefer the OR but that's a personal opinion, but the mechanical aspect of the bezel is a notch above, everything else, Ginault all the way.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. It was just out of curiosity.
> 
> Best regards,


No problem. I am not a watch maker. I've just modded a couple watches in the past and had discussions with watchmakers on the process. It is really a game of fractions of millimeters. Just a little bit off and the crown stem is deflecting the crown tube seals and water resistance is compromised (not to mention pressure on the keyworks, etc.).


----------



## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

Almost there...


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

jorgeledesma said:


> Enjoying my _blue smurf_ version. I have not taken it off since last Friday. Bar none the best in class watch. I have the two tone gold/blue Sub and I can safely leave it in the safe and wear my OR without any issues whatsoever. I love showing my other buddies (some Rolex owners as well) and their amazement at this piece and their desire to acquire one for themselves.
> 
> *How about a Ginault Explorer for a design concept *
> 
> ...


This is a short and sweet review. Only thing that is missing to make it better is some pictures.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

jorgeledesma said:


> Enjoying my _blue smurf_ version. I have not taken it off since last Friday. Bar none the best in class watch. I have the two tone gold/blue Sub and I can safely leave it in the safe and wear my OR without any issues whatsoever. I love showing my other buddies (some Rolex owners as well) and their amazement at this piece and their desire to acquire one for themselves.
> 
> *How about a Ginault Explorer for a design concept *
> 
> ...


I like your thought about an Explorer homage being next on Ginault's list. That would be a great endeavor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> This is a short and sweet review. Only thing that is missing to make it better is some pictures.


Yeah, simple folk like me need pictures to punctuate the text! It's like reading Playboy with only the articles


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

!


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## mf1tym (Dec 21, 2016)

59er said:


> !


Wow is that a custom build? Or is that the original prototype? The applied indices look larger tho.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mf1tym said:


> Wow is that a custom build? Or is that the original prototype? The applied indices look larger tho.


This is a new offering not yet on the website but can be ordered, 181175LSILN. It has the maxi dial and blue lume, loving it soooo much.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

59er said:


> Yeah, simple folk like me need pictures to punctuate the text! It's like reading Playboy with only the articles





59er said:


> !


Yea, that's what I'm talking about. :-!


----------



## Tanjecterly (Mar 13, 2013)

That looks very good. I really don't like the gold sand lume but that one... hmmm! What codes are they giving out if any?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Blue lume rules! ;-)

Best regards,


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

The original pic:









After having played a bit with it:


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Both versions of the pic are nice, but I think I actually prefer the original (!). I like how 30 is the only visible number on the bezel in that version ...


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Have a Great Christmas guys, here's my Christmas eve pic, posted it on one of the other Ginault threads but that one has sort of deviated so posting it here as well.

Take it easy and enjoy the break if you are lucky enough to have it off.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Peace and health for 2018!

Merry Christmas to ALL of you!


----------



## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

Can Ginault come up with a Milgauss Homage from the 60s this one gets my vote. What say you all?









Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Merry Christmas!


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

andrewmack said:


> View attachment 12755191
> Merry Christmas!


Nice shot!

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi,

My bezel suddenly stopped making “click” when rotating it and, afterwards, it can be rotated clock- and counterclockwise. :-(

Is there an easy way that (even I) can solve this before contacting Ginault?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Hi,
> 
> My bezel suddenly stopped making "click" when rotating it and, afterwards, it can be rotated clock- and counterclockwise. :-(
> 
> ...


Sorry, I think the bezel ratchet spring had broke or came off internally. Unless you have experience in dismantling diver watches before, please contact Ginault.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Sorry, I think the bezel ratchet spring had broke or came off internally. Unless you have experience in dismantling diver watches before, please contact Ginault.


Thanks. I will contact Ginault.

Best regards,


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Yes better contact Ginault because local watchmakers can fix it but sometimes the bezel's dot doesn't align properly with the 12H marker.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

lvt said:


> Yes better contact Ginault because local watchmakers can fix it but sometimes the bezel's dot doesn't align properly with the 12H marker.


Thanks for the info. I have already sent an e-mail to Ginault.

Best regards,


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Hi,
> 
> My bezel suddenly stopped making "click" when rotating it and, afterwards, it can be rotated clock- and counterclockwise. :-(
> 
> ...


To establish what has happened the bezel will need to be removed to see if the click spring has become dislodged or if it is lost altogether.

It's not a big job and could be done by yourself with a small amount of guidance but being that the watch is under warrantee it's better to see what Ginault advise first to avoid any possible problems if parts are lost or damaged in the process.


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks for the info. I have already sent an e-mail to Ginault.
> 
> Best regards,


Wasn't the hour hand just replaced? Shouldn't be a factor because they would have gone in through the back of the watch. Hope you didn't get a lemon.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Radar1 said:


> Wasn't the hour hand just replaced? Shouldn't be a factor because they would have gone in through the back of the watch. Hope you didn't get a lemon.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


Yes, the hour hand was replaced, but everything worked fine afterwards. Well, except that the accuracy changed from +2-3 secs/day to -6/day. :-O

So far, Ginault has been responsive and supportive. I hope they keep on being it and are willing to cover this, since I assume this should be covered by the warranty. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I will keep you informed.

Best regards,


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Yes, the hour hand was replaced, but everything worked fine afterwards. Well, except that the accuracy changed from +2-3 secs/day to -6/day. :-O
> 
> So far, Ginault has been responsive and supportive. I hope they keep on being it and are willing to cover this, since I assume this should be covered by the warranty. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> ...


Barring you raging out in a Ginault thread and beating the crap out of the bezel in frustration, I believe it will be covered. Lol. Shame it has to go out again. Good luck!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Radar1 said:


> Barring you raging out in a Ginault thread and beating the crap out of the bezel in frustration, I believe it will be covered. Lol. Shame it has to go out again. Good luck!


 :-D

Ginault has just replied and suggested me to send the watch again back to the EU service center in Berlin. I will take the opportunity to adjust it (right now it looses around -10 secs/day while before sending it was gaining +2-3 secs/day).

I agree that it is a pity to go again through this process, but I am happy to see that there is always someone at the other side offering a solution to the issues.

Best regards,


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> :-D
> 
> Ginault has just replied and suggested me to send the watch again back to the EU service center in Berlin. I will take the opportunity to adjust it (right now it looses around -10 secs/day while before sending it was gaining +2-3 secs/day).
> 
> ...


Agreed. Stellar customer service and that counts for a lot. Let us know how it goes.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> :-D
> 
> Ginault has just replied and suggested me to send the watch again back to the EU service center in Berlin. I will take the opportunity to adjust it (right now it looses around -10 secs/day while before sending it was gaining +2-3 secs/day).
> 
> ...


Are you checking regulation in all positions as I thought mine was well out but once I checked in all positions a second time I got a much different result.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Are you checking regulation in all positions as I thought mine was well out but once I checked in all positions a second time I got a much different result.


No. Just set it with an app and check the time every 12/24 h. Do not take into consideration the different positions, since I do not take it off for the night. I have always done so. My Explorer was around +1-2 secs/day. And the Ginault, the first days was +2-3 secs/day.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> No. Just set it with an app and check the time every 12/24 h. Do not take into consideration the different positions, since I do not take it off for the night. I have always done so. My Explorer was around +1-2 secs/day. And the Ginault, the first days was +2-3 secs/day.


Face up, face down, on either side will all give a different measurement, unless you measure it at a specific position every time then you have no original point of reference.

Besides +/-10 secs is a GOOD reading anyway and close enough unless you are timing some critical times event.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Face up, face down, on either side will all give a different measurement, unless you measure it at a specific position every time then you have no original point of reference.
> 
> Besides +/-10 secs is a GOOD reading anyway and close enough unless you are timing some critical times event.


Yes, that I know. I do not need extreme accuracy for any timing, but I am used to the accuracy of my Exp I (out for the periodical service now).


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Enough talk, time for a pic.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Enough talk, time for a pic.


Agree!


----------



## marcell (May 6, 2017)

Mine









Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Long time no pics. Happy New Year!


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Thread bump with a new pic taken this moring on a large tree root.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Long time no pics. Happy New Year!


You always take such great photos. Thank you!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Thread bump with a new pic taken this moring on a large tree root.


Really nice photos! What kind of plant is that?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Pgg365247 (May 31, 2013)

How does one go about requesting a military discount from Ginault?

Thanks


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Pgg365247 said:


> How does one go about requesting a military discount from Ginault?
> 
> Thanks


Just contact John via the email on the Ginault site and ask him.

Make sure you let us know what you order.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> Really nice photos! What kind of plant is that?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks, I believe that one is a Moreton Bay Fig.


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Long time no pics. Happy New Year!


Great photo...I love the way the light strikes the watch, beautiful 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Some pics of mine.

Question: I had it at Ginault service point some while ago. There have been some small scratches on the polished site. Serviceman polished it out. Now I am questioning myself all the time if you can see that. Do you mind sharing your views with me? Thank you!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> Some pics of mine.
> 
> Question: I had it at Ginault service point some while ago. There have been some small scratches on the polished site. Serviceman polished it out. Now I am questioning myself all the time if you can see that. Do you mind sharing your views with me? Thank you!
> 
> ...


I don't see the scratches. I don't care about scratches. Even decided not to replace the bezel with a dent after 2 weeks of having bought it.

Mine is also back from service center. They have repaired the bezel (didn't make the click and was turning in both directions) and adjusted it.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

sorry. The scratches are away, but I was curious if you can see that the watch was polished or not.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> sorry. The scratches are away, but I was curious if you can see that the watch was polished or not.


Oh, sorry. I misunderstood your question. :-O

No, I cannot see that it has been polished.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Shizmosis said:


> Some pics of mine.
> 
> Question: I had it at Ginault service point some while ago. There have been some small scratches on the polished site. Serviceman polished it out. Now I am questioning myself all the time if you can see that. Do you mind sharing your views with me? Thank you!
> 
> ...


Mate I can't actually see any evidence of "Re" polishing in your pics but even brand new if you look carefully at a certain angle you can see machining/polishing "lines" but this would be normal unless a ridiculously high level of polishing had been done.

I'm like you I love that brand new perfect look but I'm afraid if you want to wear your watch it's going to get scratches and marks along the way and especially in the bracelet but don't be worried as a re-polish and re-brush is not particularly hard to do even for a novice and close to brand new appearance is easily achievable.

I've had watches that looked ready for the bin but after a few hours on the dremel they came up beautiful.

The biggest worry you have with these watches is the aluminum bezel insert as once scratched only replacement will restore the look to new but these can be bought aftermarket or probably from Ginault.

Lots of youtube case/bracelet resto tutorials as well as on the forum.

Enjoy your OR!


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> sorry. The scratches are away, but I was curious if you can see that the watch was polished or not.


Looks fine to me, but DON'T POLISH !

If you looked at scratches as a mark of coolness uniqueness and tool Watchedness, then the scratches that come will be badges not booboos.

T


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> Looks fine to me, but DON'T POLISH !
> 
> If you looked at scratches as a mark of coolness uniqueness and tool Watchedness, then the scratches that come will be badges not booboos.
> 
> T


I could not agree more. I like my watches to look like they've been worn and, honestly, that I enjoy them so much I wear them all of the time. After all, it's a watch not an ornament.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Thank all of you for your replies.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Morning bicycle ride with the OR.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Ginault the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

Welcome all Genault Owners, past present and future....oh yeah and anyone else too.

Hopefully Genault them selves will stop in to say hey.b-)


----------



## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

On a NATO - for a change.


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> Welcome all Genault Owners, past present and future....oh yeah and anyone else too.
> 
> Hopefully Genault them selves will stop in to say hey.b-)
> 
> View attachment 12813133


Might wana check your spelling of the company you seem to love so much


----------



## Apexer (Dec 24, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> Welcome all Genault Owners, past present and future....oh yeah and anyone else too.
> 
> Hopefully Genault them selves will stop in to say hey.b-)
> 
> View attachment 12813133


Thanks for the initiative.

I'm in!



longstride said:


> On a NATO - for a change.


That looks great!


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



City74 said:


> Might wana check your spelling of the company you seem to love so much


:-d Yes please correct the spelling of the thread title before it's too late. Not sure another thread was necessary, but why not, as long as it's photo rich and drama free. Ginault definitely made the "most controversial" list for 2017 --


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*


----------



## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Merged


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Quicksilver said:


> Merged


Brilliant! Thanks! |>


----------



## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



City74 said:


> Might wana check your spelling of the company you seem to love so much


Watch out, kids. The WUS tough guy is here.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

Just ordered a 181070LSILN, the glowing Smurfs did it for me...


----------



## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Steven Cook said:


> Just ordered a 181070LSILN, the glowing Smurfs did it for me...


Same here. I've had the Glowing Smurfs model for a little over a month and have barely taken it off. Looks great and is quite comfortable. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


----------



## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

WJG16 said:


> Same here. I've had the Glowing Smurfs model for a little over a month and have barely taken it off. Looks great and is quite comfortable. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.


Just received my 180165C1LN today and so far I'm VERY impressed with it! While I've never owned a Rolex Submariner, I have owned a Tudor Black Bay and my initial thoughts on the overall quality is that it looks and feels on-par with the Tudor. The one thing that really stands out to me so far is the bezel action! Wow! It is awesome, virtually no play and the clicks are just like my Tudor! The bracelet is very nice also, the links feel nice and very solid with almost no play. I'll be wearing it and will report back about the movement/time keeping.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yep loving my Blue lume OR as well.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Steven Cook said:


> Just ordered a 181070LSILN, the glowing Smurfs did it for me...


I ordered my LSILN nodate 11 days ago...no ship notification :-(


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

It's Ginaulta like Gibraltar Smart Guy

Thanks for Pointing that out for me 



Perseverence said:


> Watch out, kids. The WUS tough guy is here.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



Riddim Driven said:


> :-d Yes please correct the spelling of the thread title before it's too late. Not sure another thread was necessary, but why not, as long as it's photo rich and drama free. Ginault definitely made the "most controversial" list for 2017 --


The thread is gone, so spelling correction no longer necessary, and it wasnt a mistake in the first place... but lets move forward, I thought it was a good idea, maybe not


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

More pics please!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> I ordered my LSILN nodate 11 days ago...no ship notification :-(


Just in case you haven't already emailed John give him a shout as he usually responds very quickly.

I believe they make them in batches or that was the case with my latest anyway so had to wait awhile but 11 days sounds longer than most of the guys have reported.

Hope yours gets to you soon.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Gab124 said:


> More pics please!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


There you go!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

And two more...


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

^ awesome, they are nice looking watches, I'm still waiting patiently for my Smurf no date 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## mrpete (Dec 13, 2006)

Approaching one year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




----------



## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> It's Ginaulta like Gibraltar Smart Guy
> 
> Thanks for Pointing that out for me


You quoted the wrong person.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



Perseverence said:


> You quoted the wrong person.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


My deepest apologies sir


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Can we see a pic of the "1960s Omegs Seamaster gold with white face"?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

59er said:


> Just in case you haven't already emailed John give him a shout as he usually responds very quickly.
> 
> I believe they make them in batches or that was the case with my latest anyway so had to wait awhile but 11 days sounds longer than most of the guys have reported.
> 
> Hope yours gets to you soon.


Starting to get a little worried about mine. Ordered mid/late of December told 7 days to ship. Didn't hear anything and wrote again and was then told the next week. That was 15 days ago and have written 3 times with no answer. Hmmmmmmm.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Gab124 said:


> Starting to get a little worried about mine. Ordered mid/late of December told 7 days to ship. Didn't hear anything and wrote again and was then told the next week. That was 15 days ago and have written 3 times with no answer. Hmmmmmmm.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


After several dozen emails back and forth with John about various things over the last few months, I get the impression that he's one guy, not terribly organized, wearing several hats and running like crazy. Sometimes I get an answer in 30 minutes at 11 at night, sometimes I have to write several times. I know it's frustrating when you're waiting on your watch, but I wouldn't worry that I wasn't actually going to get it. He's gone above and beyond with me every time, but he hasn't always been fast.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Belloc said:


> After several dozen emails back and forth with John about various things over the last few months, I get the impression that he's one guy, not terribly organized, wearing several hats and running like crazy. Sometimes I get an answer in 30 minutes at 11 at night, sometimes I have to write several times. I know it's frustrating when you're waiting on your watch, but I wouldn't worry that I wasn't actually going to get it. He's gone above and beyond with me every time, but he hasn't always been fast.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


He wrote me around midnight last night with a tracking number, so things are looking up. It is very hard to startup a new company, and one of those challenges is being ready for growing pains, I hope they are able to keep up. On a plus side I am really glad they are growing I sincerely hope to see great things from them.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Belloc said:


> After several dozen emails back and forth with John about various things over the last few months, I get the impression that he's one guy, not terribly organized, wearing several hats and running like crazy. Sometimes I get an answer in 30 minutes at 11 at night, sometimes I have to write several times. I know it's frustrating when you're waiting on your watch, but I wouldn't worry that I wasn't actually going to get it. He's gone above and beyond with me every time, but he hasn't always been fast.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I agree with this and already have mentioned it before.

He has always been very supportive in terms of customer service (and I know what I am talking about, since I have sent twice my watch to its European Service Centre).


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I agree with this and already have mentioned it before.
> 
> He has always been very supportive in terms of customer service (and I know what I am talking about, since I have sent twice my watch to its European Service Centre).


Its been over 20 days for me. :-( . Received email yesterday, he said 7-12 more days. There was a back-order on hands.

T


----------



## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Be thankful, you could have ordered a Merkur MM300 and it takes close to a year for the first batch of 30 and an unknown amount of time for the next batches 

To be more on target, there was a similar watch being sold that you had to wait an average of 6 months for your watch to be made.....in fact, it looked EERILY similar to the Ginault OR ;P hmmmmm, the name escapes me right now....


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> Its been over 20 days for me. :-( . Received email yesterday, he said 7-12 more days. There was a back-order on hands.
> 
> T


Hope you won't be waiting too much longer, the wait is always painful.

Here's mine just after sunrise this morning.


----------



## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

I ordered mine last Tuesday, thought it was in stock ready to go. Was told after a few days that that it would be 7-10 business days more. Kinda bummed I had hoped I would have it already....


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

DevilDogDoc said:


> I ordered mine last Tuesday, thought it was in stock ready to go. Was told after a few days that that it would be 7-10 business days more. Kinda bummed I had hoped I would have it already....


I ordered mine 30 days ago and don't think it's shipping till Saturday 27th.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Gab124 said:


> I ordered mine 30 days ago and don't think it's shipping till Saturday 27th.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


That is disappointing.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

59er said:


> That is disappointing.


Yes it is, but I have tried to stay positive about it. A new company with growing pains is likely the issue. If the product is as good as has been reported then I will be a happy camper. Society has grown accustomed to instant gratification, I know I have, so it's sometimes good to keep things in perspective.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Time for a pic!

Hope this eases your waiting...


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Time for a pic!
> 
> Hope this eases your waiting...


Thanks! It just really looks great. I have been wearing my Squale 1545 in the meantime, another great homage, but I can't stand Mercedes hands and most classic sword hands are offered with antique patina, which is fine but I have discovered I like the white color more. That Smurf really stands out against the gloss black dial. I assume it looks even better in person.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

In for a dip this morning.


----------



## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Gab124 said:


> Thanks! It just really looks great. I have been wearing my Squale 1545 in the meantime, another great homage, but I can't stand Mercedes hands and most classic sword hands are offered with antique patina, which is fine but I have discovered I like the white color more. That Smurf really stands out against the gloss black dial. I assume it looks even better in person.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


One reservation I had when purchasing the Ocean Rover was that I wished it had Mercedes hands, as I wasn't a fan of the sword hands. After a few months with the Ginault, I now find it difficult to appreciate my Davosa Ternos and Tisell Marine Diver, as I now feel the Ginault sword hands look so much better than the Mercedes on the other two. And you're right, pictures don't do the dial justice. It looks so much better in person.


----------



## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

WJG16 said:


> One reservation I had when purchasing the Ocean Rover was that I wished it had Mercedes hands, as I wasn't a fan of the sword hands. After a few months with the Ginault, I now find it difficult to appreciate my Davosa Ternos and Tisell Marine Diver, as I now feel the Ginault sword hands look so much better than the Mercedes on the other two. And you're right, pictures don't do the dial justice. It looks so much better in person.


Yes, the sword look good. I should mention I don't hate Mercedes hands per se, I just find them difficult to read. I think the legibility of the swords are much better. I should also mention my only in the flesh watch with Mercedes hands is the Squale 1545, so other brands may be better.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Gab124 said:


> Yes, the sword look good. I should mention I don't hate Mercedes hands per se, I just find them difficult to read. I think the legibility of the swords are much better. I should also mention my only in the flesh watch with Mercedes hands is the Squale 1545, so other brands may be better.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Agreed on the legibility. This is especially the case in the dark, since the sword hands seem to have more surface area for the lume, whereas the Merc hands lose some of the lume real estate due to the metal separator (not sure if this has a name!) inside the circle.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

WJG16 said:


> Agreed on the legibility. This is especially the case in the dark, since the sword hands seem to have more surface area for the lume, whereas the Merc hands lose some of the lume real estate due to the metal separator (not sure if this has a name!) inside the circle.












Compared vs Explorer


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Compared vs Explorer


Yeah, they are just thinner and smaller. I Think there was a reason the milsub had swords, legibility was important.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Compared vs Explorer


Nice pic. That blue lume always looks great!


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Confession...I have worn my Ocean Rover, 24/7, since I got it November 3rd. It has soothed my desire for other watches. This has not been the case since I joined WUS. Pretty amazed by this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> Confession...I have worn my Ocean Rover, 24/7, since I got it November 3rd. It has soothed my desire for other watches. This has not been the case since I joined WUS. Pretty amazed by this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well I've not worn mine exclusively but certainly the majority of the time and I am no longer continually lusting after something else as the OR ticks all of the boxes for me.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Compared vs Explorer


When I look at the watch on the right, my brain instantly goes "seven thirty-five". When I look at the watch on the left, my brain goes "uh wut?" Which is why I don't buy watches with that hand style.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

Nice to see these smurfs showing up. The Patina colored OR seem dark and dumpy to me compared to the smurf. I am still waiting :-( .

20Daze


----------



## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Here are a few pics to hold you over. Strangely, the first pic was taken with a flash and kind of looks like the gold sand version. Definitely the smurf model though.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Nice.

Mine, with black light and in B&W.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Was about to re-string my guitar and thought........there's a pic oportunity!


----------



## Dino7 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> Nice to see these smurfs showing up. The Patina colored OR seem dark and dumpy to me compared to the smurf. I am still waiting :-( .
> 
> 20Daze


Hang in there , I ordered mine at the end of December , spoke with John a couple of times and it seems they send them in batches to the EU distribution centre ( wait until one batch clears customs then send another ) . He told me 7 - 10 days , then would get a tracking number when mine hits the EU centre and is sent on to me in the U.K. Had been waiting over 3weeks .
Then after never receiving any tracking - today it just shows up 
Will get some pics up later .


----------



## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



Dino7 said:


> Hang in there , I ordered mine at the end of December , spoke with John a couple of times and it seems they send them in batches to the EU distribution centre ( wait until one batch clears customs then send another ) . He told me 7 - 10 days , then would get a tracking number when mine hits the EU centre and is sent on to me in the U.K. Had been waiting over 3weeks .
> Then after never receiving any tracking - today it just shows up
> Will get some pics up later .


Does this method of distribution avoid import/customs charges?


----------



## Dino7 (Jun 16, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



Steven Cook said:


> Does this method of distribution avoid import/customs charges?


As it was eventually sent to me by Royal Mail signed for , yes


----------



## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



Dino7 said:


> As it was eventually sent to me by Royal Mail signed for , yes


Sweet, music to my ears! :-!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Steven Cook said:


> Does this method of distribution avoid import/customs charges?


I did not have to pay any customs or additional taxes.

Edit: typo


----------



## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



GarbanzoNegro said:


> I dis not have to pay any customs or additional taxes.


That's also good to know. It's always a concern when you order from the US. It put me off ordering an Ocean Rover for the best part of a month, until I could no longer resist!


----------



## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

TonyDennison said:


> I ordered my LSILN nodate 11 days ago...no ship notification :-(


Don't know if you received it yet but I didn't receive a ship notification until a week after I received the watch! LOL! Not sure why, but I will say I received it last week so it was way ahead of the 6 to 8 week wait time that was stated...more like 4!


----------



## Dino7 (Jun 16, 2012)

Very impressed so far ....


----------



## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

I've always though the clasp was the weakest part of the watch. So just picked up an interesting new clasp. Looks vaguely similar to something else I've seen....









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

FireMonk3y said:


> I've always though the clasp was the weakest part of the watch. So just picked up an interesting new clasp. Looks vaguely similar to something else I've seen....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you, please, comment on the differences/advantages of this clasp over the original one?

Furthermore, I would appreciate if you could share with us where you bought it from.

Many thanks in advance.


----------



## coachbh (Oct 21, 2017)

- following -


----------



## coachbh (Oct 21, 2017)

- following -


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Fellow No Date owners,

What do you think about the clarity of the boxed sapphire? I love my SILN but I find that the crystal clarity poor compared to all my other watches (most have either inner AR or are acrylic). I love everything about the watch except the crystal clarity. Love the boxed shaped and slight dome. And the gorgeous dial and hands deserve better clarity. 

I’m strongly considering to send it in for dual AR job at the cost of $130. What do y’all think?


----------



## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Do it  I have been wanting to (if it's the same infamous invisible AR crystal I am thinking of!!!) But know this. It destroys your warranty (which is why I anxiously await the one year period which is approaching within 6 months!!! At which point I will have the same magical crystal installed.

Question. Are you getting the Ginault boxed sapphire coated, or are you going to install the flat 166110 crystal with double AR (and removing the beautiful boxed sapphire)???

I am thinking of getting the box sapphire coated and installed (pushes the cost up a little more....and you have to deal with not having the watch for a little while)


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Great feedback! Yep I know it voids the warranty and that’s why I’ve been stalling. I’m also about 6 months in. I doubt I’ll use the warranty anyway...

I want to get the boxed sapphire coated. I don’t see the point in putting in a flat one in since that will take away such a key design feature of the OR.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

cwfmon said:


> I love my SILN but I find that the crystal clarity poor compared to all my other watches (most have either inner AR or are acrylic).


This is not at all my experience. My OR has the best clarity of all my watches, many of which have inner AR.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

FireMonk3y said:


> I've always though the clasp was the weakest part of the watch. So just picked up an interesting new clasp. Looks vaguely similar to something else I've seen....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How do you like it? I was looking at these, but was not thrilled with the $100+ price rage. Plus it seemed like the diver diver helmet thumb release was huge. Is it worth it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Avo said:


> This is not at all my experience. My OR has the best clarity of all my watches, many of which have inner AR.


Really, eh? Which OR do you have and what are your other watches?

I compare mine to my Omega Seamasters that have inner AR. In a white room with indirect light the SILN looks cloudy compared to the SMPs since it reflects the white walls. The only time it looks clear is in direct light or fluorescent lighting.

Here are some pics. The first is with an SMP with inner AR. The second is with a Turtle with acrylics crystal. Notice how the black dial of the OR is not nearly as black...because the crystal reflects the white walls. It's a shame since the glossy black OR dial deserves better.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> Fellow No Date owners,
> 
> What do you think about the clarity of the boxed sapphire? I love my SILN but I find that the crystal clarity poor compared to all my other watches (most have either inner AR or are acrylic). I love everything about the watch except the crystal clarity. Love the boxed shaped and slight dome. And the gorgeous dial and hands deserve better clarity.
> 
> I'm strongly considering to send it in for dual AR job at the cost of $130. What do y'all think?


I also think there are too many reflections. From what I have read, putting an AR coat would make the dial look "blueish". Or am I wrong?

The flat sapphire crystal on my Explorer also has reflections, but in a different way. Or maybe I am already used to it.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I also think there are too many reflections. From what I have read, putting an AR coat would make the dial look "blueish". Or am I wrong?


The lower quality AR coating will have a strong blueish hue (other colours are available too...yellow, red, green...). But there are some modders who have mastered it and provide a very high quality AR (comparable to the Swiss brands) and their coating have no hue.


----------



## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Could you, please, comment on the differences/advantages of this clasp over the original one?
> 
> Furthermore, I would appreciate if you could share with us where you bought it from.
> 
> Many thanks in advance.





Jtragic said:


> How do you like it? I was looking at these, but was not thrilled with the $100+ price rage. Plus it seemed like the diver diver helmet thumb release was huge. Is it worth it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Functionally its not much different than the stock clasp. The only difference is that you can adjust the length without taking the watch off, which is kinda cool. I really like the diver helmet on the clasp though. I've always wished the Ginault clasp would have come with some kind of branding. I've only worn it one day and didn't seem to catch on anything, but we'll see.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mnejmantowicz (Jul 15, 2012)

FireMonk3y said:


> Functionally its not much different than the stock clasp. The only difference is that you can adjust the length without taking the watch off, which is kinda cool. I really like the diver helmet on the clasp though. I've always wished the Ginault clasp would have come with some kind of branding. I've only worn it one day and didn't seem to catch on anything, but we'll see.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Please tell us where you got it from?


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Wow! You guys that have any problem with this watch should just get rid of it. This has been one of the most controversial watches of all time. You praise it, you curse it. There's nothing wrong with the crystal. AR coatings are totally over rated and now is just a selling point in the feature list. I've had so many AR coated watches that are full of reflections. Then there's the crowd that loves reflections and distortion, and that makes the watch for them.

I am incredibly impressed that Ginault could address the nitpicks so fast in turnaround time and without writing anybody off. I know of no there company that has done this in the time frame. 

One of the best crystals I've ever owned was on the OWC (Orange Watch Company) product. If you want a watch with zero reflection and a disappearing crystal then get an OWC sub. They're awesome!

Having OCD used to be somewhat a joke with this hobby, now it's an absolute pre requisite. How can one even enjoy their watches o|

I try not to look for fault but if they are glaring that's one thing. Some of the purveyors lack of making it right or not listening can be off-putting as well, though Ginault seems to have a pretty great product and support set-up, and is very long suffering.

Let's see what the next issue will be with these. Perhaps lack of polish on the very tip of the 12 marker :-d

Oh yeh, the clasp....


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

There are 2 of the Pro GlideLocks left on ebay  (it's $180 glidelock clasp, with a Seadweller extension link with a diver helmet on it as well....you don't have to use the Seadweller link) who will be the next person to get one...they do look cool 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PRO-Glide-...722025?hash=item5690df03a9:g:iLoAAOSwldRaOhIw


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

FireMonk3y said:


> The only difference is that you can adjust the length without taking the watch off, which is kinda cool.


Thanks! Thats seems like an improvement.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> The lower quality AR coating will have a strong blueish hue (other colours are available too...yellow, red, green...). But there are some modders who have mastered it and provide a very high quality AR (comparable to the Swiss brands) and their coating have no hue.


I see. Another "just a matter on how much you will pay" mod...

Thanks for the clarification.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Good news on my OR Smurf - received notification last night it will finally arrive on Monday, already in the USPS system so I am excited.
Another question - is this thread turning into the Ginault appreciation thread as I have not seen one of those?


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

I ordered mine on 1/8 and just got shipping notification, will be here tomorrow! Can't wait!


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Gab124 said:


> Another question - is this thread turning into the Ginault appreciation thread as I have not seen one of those?


Now you did it ...

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> Now you did it ...
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Did what?

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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Jtragic said:


> Now you did it ...
> 
> Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk


Lol

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I have no complaints about my Ocean Rover. It is a magnificent watch...everything I could have hoped for. I only wish I had gotten the no date version.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> I have no complaints about my Ocean Rover. It is a magnificent watch...everything I could have hoped for. I only wish I had gotten the no date version.


Well that's an easy fix

Get another!


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Mine is in town and out for delivery. Excited to get a look at it.

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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

What's the delivery time like on these? I'm unable to find any info about it on their site. 


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Mine came in good order this afternoon. Gave it a once over for glaring problems, took all the protection off, sized, set time and have been wearing it around. So far it is easily the best made watch I own. The next one I have that is closest would be my Squale 50 atmos, which is a very nice piece and is about +2 seconds a day. This Ocean Rover has it beat in finishing and overall impression easily. We will see how it is adjusted but I expect very good performance there as well. Several were commenting on the crystal and wanting AR - I have to say that I think it is very clear and I actually get less reflections than I do from the watches I own that do have AR. Not that there are not better ones out there, just none that I have. To me I find it very legible. Very much digging the red second hand contrasting with that great black dial and the smurf lume. I will follow up more as I wear it in. So far an extremely happy camper.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Gab124 said:


> Mine came in good order this afternoon. Gave it a once over for glaring problems, took all the protection off, sized, set time and have been wearing it around. So far it is easily the best made watch I own. The next one I have that is closest would be my Squale 50 atmos, which is a very nice piece and is about +2 seconds a day. This Ocean Rover has it beat in finishing and overall impression easily. We will see how it is adjusted but I expect very good performance there as well. Several were commenting on the crystal and wanting AR - I have to say that I think it is very clear and I actually get less reflections than I do from the watches I own that do have AR. Not that there are not better ones out there, just none that I have. To me I find it very legible. Very much digging the red second hand contrasting with that great black dial and the smurf lume. I will follow up more as I wear it in. So far an extremely happy camper.


I agree 100%. I've owned Oris Aquis', TAG Heuer Aquracers, Certinas, Seikos (Sumos and MM300s), Sinns, etc. and the Ocean Rover beats all of the in fit and finish, except for the MM300...and the Ocean Rover is on par with that watch. Mine has been on my wrist, 24/7, since I got it on November 3rd.

Congratulations! I hope you continue to enjoy it.

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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

I think I will! It is sad though, cause I don't baby any of my watches and have an active lifestyle and job,,,,,this will get beat up and I have to enjoy the next few weeks of its perfect state as much as possible.

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## bluedevil704 (Jan 22, 2016)

Gab124 said:


> Mine came in good order this afternoon. Gave it a once over for glaring problems, took all the protection off, sized, set time and have been wearing it around. So far it is easily the best made watch I own. The next one I have that is closest would be my Squale 50 atmos, which is a very nice piece and is about +2 seconds a day. This Ocean Rover has it beat in finishing and overall impression easily. We will see how it is adjusted but I expect very good performance there as well. Several were commenting on the crystal and wanting AR - I have to say that I think it is very clear and I actually get less reflections than I do from the watches I own that do have AR. Not that there are not better ones out there, just none that I have. To me I find it very legible. Very much digging the red second hand contrasting with that great black dial and the smurf lume. I will follow up more as I wear it in. So far an extremely happy camper.


Ordered mine two weeks ago. John said it is supposed to ship this week. Posts like yours make the wait so much more painful haha!

Glad you're enjoying the watch. Can't wait for mine to come in.

Post pics!


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## bmdaia (Aug 14, 2015)

I would purchase one of these hard fought victories in an instant if the dial did not contain the incomprehensibly superfluous words “KINETIC CONTINUOUS..SUBMERSIBLE MARITIME”. Just the logo, WR, and that gorgeous lustrous dial are all I need. 


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

A co-worker of mine picked up a used SubC over the weekend and I got to see it and hold it for a minute today. Unfortunately I was not wearing my Ocean Rover at the time, so I wasn't able to compare the two side by side. However, in the limited time I got to spend with the Sub, it didn't feel THAT much better. I'm not knocking the Sub at all...it obviously has the heritage and is a great watch. It just really shows how nice the OR is when compared to other brands.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

bmdaia said:


> I would purchase one of these hard fought victories in an instant if the dial did not contain the incomprehensibly superfluous words "KINETIC CONTINUOUS..SUBMERSIBLE MARITIME". Just the logo, WR, and that gorgeous lustrous dial are all I need.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Everyone is free to like or dislike it, I can't even see it without readers, but even then I kinda like what they choose to put on there. And I hate sterile dials anyway.

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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

bmdaia said:


> I would purchase one of these hard fought victories in an instant if the dial did not contain the incomprehensibly superfluous words "KINETIC CONTINUOUS..SUBMERSIBLE MARITIME". Just the logo, WR, and that gorgeous lustrous dial are all I need.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's the beauty of sub-homages. There are a gazillion out there to suit everybody's tastes, whims & desires.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Riddim Driven said:


> That's the beauty of sub-homages. There are a gazillion out there to suit everybody's tastes, whims & desires.


For sure! For my homage needs this one checked more boxes than any other one I've come across. Even the text, for me the Sub has to have that many lines of text, it is part of the visual allure for me. Size also, can't do a large homage, it just takes away something important for me. Additionally, the aluminum bezel insert, still have not come to terms with the ceramic. Also, can't have a lumed insert, it changes the look too much for me. Lastly, it has to be very well made and great quality, I just don't understand why a homage has to be cheap and affordable, the Rolex sub is known for quality and craftmanship, that's as important as the visual appearance. I'm also a musician and have Fender homages that are actually better than the guitars they were inspired from - at least to me. But to repeat the above, there is something for everyone out there and I Think I've found mine.

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Gab124 said:


> I think I will! It is sad though, cause I don't baby any of my watches and have an active lifestyle and job,,,,,this will get beat up and I have to enjoy the next few weeks of its perfect state as much as possible.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Well, if it's any concolation...I'm a geologist and I wear mine in the field all of the time. It's been banged against EVERYTHING and it still looks great. No dings or scratches on the bezel, case, or crystal. Dude, it's a dive watch! It's supposed to get used and abused!

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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

rosborn said:


> Well, if it's any concolation...I'm a geologist and I wear mine in the field all of the time. It's been banged against EVERYTHING and it still looks great. No dings or scratches on the bezel, case, or crystal. Dude, it's a dive watch! It's supposed to get used and abused!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You are right, a tool watch through and through! I always wanted to be a geologist as a young boy but somehow ended up as a zookeeper and botanist.

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Gab124 said:


> You are right, a tool watch through and through! I always wanted to be a geologist as a young boy but somehow ended up as a zookeeper and botanist.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I would love to be a zookeeper! One of my favorite places is the Toledo Zoo. We used to go there every month when our kids were small.

Very cool and I am very envious. It never would've panned out for me though. I tried a zoology class in college and got an A but the level of effort was exhausting - way more effort than necessary for any of my chemistry, math or physics classes. Botany isn't easy either. You're an ironman!

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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Gab124 said:


> Mine came in good order this afternoon. Gave it a once over for glaring problems, took all the protection off, sized, set time and have been wearing it around. So far it is easily the best made watch I own. The next one I have that is closest would be my Squale 50 atmos, which is a very nice piece and is about +2 seconds a day. This Ocean Rover has it beat in finishing and overall impression easily. We will see how it is adjusted but I expect very good performance there as well. Several were commenting on the crystal and wanting AR - I have to say that I think it is very clear and I actually get less reflections than I do from the watches I own that do have AR. Not that there are not better ones out there, just none that I have. To me I find it very legible. Very much digging the red second hand contrasting with that great black dial and the smurf lume. I will follow up more as I wear it in. So far an extremely happy camper.


Regarding crystal clarity, do you have the no date or date? Two different crystals so want to make sure we are disagreeing with regards to the no date boxed sapphire.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

cwfmon said:


> Regarding crystal clarity, do you have the no date or date? Two different crystals so want to make sure we are disagreeing with regards to the no date boxed sapphire.


I have the no date boxed. It was a little cloudy around house this evening, but outside and around work clear as a bell. I sometimes get overfocused on certain things and could see how it is possible here as well for some individuals, luckily it isn't one that bothers me too much at all. Like for me my Steinharts lug shape I could not get past, even the 39mm, I also couldn't get over the 42mm OVM beveled edge on the crystal, drove me nuts but others loved it.

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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Right on mate. Enjoy the honeymoon! I should have the 2xAR crystal mod complete in 4-6 weeks so we can all see how that turns out then.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

rosborn said:


> I would love to be a zookeeper! One of my favorite places is the Toledo Zoo. We used to go there every month when our kids were small.
> 
> Very cool and I am very envious. It never would've panned out for me though. I tried a zoology class in college and got an A but the level of effort was exhausting - way more effort than necessary for any of my chemistry, math or physics classes. Botany isn't easy either. You're an ironman!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks, but no iron man here, just wore alot of hats over the years - though some of those classes were pretty hard thinking back, for me the chemistry. I was at Toledo zoo several times for conferences, love the architecture at that zoo.

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## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

^ Zoologist and geologist...cool professions, guys.

Sort of related, but I somehow finally gouged the crap out of the clasp on my NTH Nacken the other day, and I actually feel better about things now. Like, well, I don't have to worry about _that _anymore!

I say wear your OR and love the bumps. I really do think it adds character; the first gouge is always the hardest.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

bmdaia said:


> I would purchase one of these hard fought victories in an instant if the dial did not contain the incomprehensibly superfluous words "KINETIC CONTINUOUS..SUBMERSIBLE MARITIME". Just the logo, WR, and that gorgeous lustrous dial are all I need.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You spend too much time reading, I just look at the big picture


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

Ok, I received my Ginault yesterday.

My thoughts?

It really brings out the quality of my seamaster. Compared to my Planet Ocean the Ginault is not very impressive, but I would feel the same way about a submariner.

Receiving this Ginault cements my idea that the 2500 Planet Ocean is the coolest thing ever, although it has some minor issues as well.

Im not trying to talk bad about Ginault, it is what it is and I believe the $700 I paid to be reasonable, but the gushing reviews?????

I mean its nice sure, but one reviewer said a rolex owner offered to trade him???? I doubt that.

The bezel insert is misaligned, the indices have rough edges. The bezel started out HORRENDOUSLY but it is breaking in ok even after maybe 80 spins.

All in all it is a very nice beater watch but it is not the holy grail people are talking about.

Would I suggest you buy one for $500- $700 ? absolutely. $1,300, not a chance.

I could be completely off base. I dont have a rolex to compare side by side, although I have handled many.... Just my thoughts and opinions.

T


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

^^^ If the bezel insert is misaligned, I would return it. This is a pet peeve for me.

I think it is fair the Ginault should come out a second to the Omega. For the cost difference, I would be suspect of the comments of anyone who suggested they were equal.

It would be great if you could take some comparative photos of the Ginault indices versus the Omega's. Consider it an educational exercise for the benefit of the group. In isolation, everything looks good. You really need the ability to compare one versus another to form a solid opinion.

FWIW, I feel the Ginault is ahead of the sub homage pack. It is not in the same league as my MM300 or SLA017, nor did I expect it to be.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I will work on some pics tonight or tomorrow, although my camera is not great.

Thanks

T



Ryeguy said:


> ^^^ If the bezel insert is misaligned, I would return it. This is a pet peeve for me.
> 
> I think it is fair the Ginault should come out a second to the Omega. For the cost difference, I would be suspect of the comments of anyone who suggested they were equal.
> 
> ...


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Yes, the OR should be compared to things in its class. I believe that to be the $1000.00 area. I have other watches in the 400 to 800 range and the OR is better, but challenges should begin from the $1500 and up mark.
On mine the bezel couldn't be more perfectly aligned as that is also a pet peeve of mine. When pressing down on bezel and turning mine is very acceptable, though I am sure there are better out there. The only reason I would trade a Rolex for it is I don't want the Rolex name on my wrist, but no way if I paid for that Rolex : )
One thing about any product is the law of diminishing returns, at some price point you get no more quality your just paying for name or other subjective attribute. 

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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> Ok, I received my Ginault yesterday.
> 
> My thoughts?
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear that you are disappointed in the OR.

The OR is much more like the Rolex and I think that if you did a side by side with a 5 digit Sub you would be a little less critical of the fit and finish than comparing it with your Omega as they are very different in case construction etc.

I've checked with my Loupe and can't see any rough edges on the indices on mine.

The insert alignment is pretty minor and can be fairly easily fixed by the average amateur tinkerer but the stiff bezel is a worry and I would have been disappointed with that as well.

I guess that one of the problems when something be it a watch or a movie gets lots of praise then we have a very high expectation so this probably hasn't helped your first impressions and I agree that no-one would likely offer to swap a Rollie for an OR unless it was a very cheap Rollie.

I've enjoyed a discount on both of my OR's so can't say whether I'd be as happy if I'd paid full price but I am certainly happy with what I've got for what I paid.

I still haven't changed my glowing views previously expressed but then again my watches didn't have any of the issues that you have reported.

Anyway hopefully you will still enjoy your OR but if not then I expect that you will be able to flip it fairly easily as all that I have seen listed at below full retail price have sold quickly.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> Ok, I received my Ginault yesterday.
> 
> My thoughts?
> 
> ...


If I were you, I would not peel off the stickers and ask for a refund. Being so disappointed does not really make sense.

I had two issues with mine and both were satisfactorily solved by Ginault's EU service center. I could see them solving the misaligned bezel.

The rough indices is another story. I am glad I do not have this issue.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

BTW, where are the pics from the newcomers? ;-)


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Checking the OR in with some co-workers


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

I really love the crystal on this watch BTW; I have several others with domes and thIs one is really special.

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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Gab124 said:


> Checking the OR in with some co-workers


Very nice! 

Thanks for the pictures!


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Additionally, I won't know for sure till a few more weeks passes but so far I am almost at 48 hours and it is -2 seconds. Not too bad so far I must say. I also took my 10x loop out for a closer look. IDK, sure there are spots not absolutely perfect but it took a loop to see them. With that said it looked really good to me.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*

I wouldn't say I am disappointed with the OR, but puzzled at what I perceived to be exaggerated praise, and Im not criticizing the reviewers, if they wrote what they thought then that is their thought. it's Just what I read, and my observation of what I read and the interpretation of those observations is subjective and maybe incorrect as to the intent of the reviewer.

The Omega is miles above the OR, and if the OR is close to the 14060, then I would say Omega is miles above Rolex 14060...just logic here. The PO is an amazing thing especially when compared to other watches Ive had and have held. Although the Speedmaster is also fantastic but on me always seemed too small.

I also have some pics I will post.

The rough edging on the indices is limited to where the indices meets the face and is only noticeable with magnification. I am not going to attempt any correction as I feel I am being over critical and perhaps even unfair. Also I may get a fix or replacement that is worse, and then what?

The insert alignment after looking at my zoomed camera pics seems strange and confusing...with the naked eye it appears that the zero pip point is 1/2 a click off while the 30 min mark seems lined up perfectly, and the 50 min mark seems off, BUT in the zoomed camera pic the zero pip point seems dead on sometimes????. When looking at the Omega the zero pip point is absolutely dead on yet some of the other numbers seem slightly off so again I may have been too hasty or just crazy.

At this point I think my mind is playing with me. what do you guys think from the pics?

Maybe it all comes down to the springy (horizontal moving) bezel...when one part is depressed, the insert looks off, when another part is depressed, or maybe when no section is depressed then the insert looks dead on....I am thinking this is the issue. In the end it is annoying but I don't know if I am just nutty. Sometimes it seems dead on and other times it seems 1/2 a click off.

The stiff bezel is broken in and is working great today. I spun it at least 100 times yesterday to break it in and it is pretty nice although I'm not a fan of the movement caused by the use of the spring inside.

I am starting to warm to the Ginault. I will give it a week and re-evaluate things. BUT I am not disappointed in the OR, I just think the reviews say PERFECT, and it is not perfect.

I will not return the watch in the hopes of getting a PERFECT copy, the hassle of shipping and the risk of worse things happening such as lost mail, arguing with Post Office about insurance, maybe getting a different copy with different problems, maybe be worse....what if I get a different copy and the Movement stops, or is damaged in transit?, etc.

I would like this response to be considered a response to the other replies to my post so I don't answer issues 10 times.

Check out the pics and let me know how crazy I am. I have been unable to capture the rough indices with my crappy camera.

Funny in the first pic, the G is dead on and the PO is off (I hadn't set the PO). Maybe the whole thing is user error.

































































59er said:


> Sorry to hear that you are disappointed in the OR.
> 
> The OR is much more like the Rolex and I think that if you did a side by side with a 5 digit Sub you would be a little less critical of the fit and finish than comparing it with your Omega as they are very different in case construction etc.
> 
> ...


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

^ I am not sure what to say here other than we all have to deal with our own issues with any watch. Each of us has different things that bug us and make something a keeper, beater or seller. I have learned a long time ago to take any review of any product with a grain of salt, even if there are many people saying the same thing. The OR is very well executed for its price point, it will be better than some more expensive examples and not as good as some others that might be cheaper. But either way, it is well done for what it is. I have to say that the bezel pics you have shown don't look too bad, and like with the angle the eye looks at something, the angle of the camera effects the alignment a great deal. I have even noticed that watches with the 15 min only marker, like the sub, even give the illusion that the pip is slighter off when it is in fact not. 
It is funny to me sometimes because if I had an actual Rolex the main thing bugging me constantly would be the multi thousand dollar chunk on my wrist, I don't think I would enjoy it as much as something like the OR - and this has nothing to do with quality, but certainly a component of enjoying a piece fully.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Hard to say from those pictures (thank you for posting them, by the way). I have seen some watches with slightly misprinted bezel inserts (not Ginault) where the bezel appears centered in some areas and off in others. Seiko has had a tough run recently of having misprinted and / or miss-aligned rehauts, so the bezel and the dial can be square but the rehaut is off. 

One of the things I notice when comparing low, mid, and upper level watches is hand edge finishing. Lower end watch hands tend to look flat and rough on the edges. As you move up the scale, hands will have smooth edges and bevels instead of being straight cut. 

You really need a macro lens to photo these little differences in detail (which I don't have either) but you can notice them with the watch in hand.


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## bluedevil704 (Jan 22, 2016)

Gab124 said:


> Checking the OR in with some co-workers


Award for best wrist shot ever goes to...

Mine hasn't shipped yet! Getting antsy.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Thank you guys. I believe I have been over critical. Maybe I was in a bad mood at the time. I have no regrets.

T


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

TonyDennison said:


> Thank you guys. I believe I have been over critical. Maybe I was in a bad mood at the time. I have no regrets.
> 
> T


Parallax.

If you're not squarely aligned, shooting straight on, the rehaut will give the appearance of offset between the insert and the dial, which sits 2-3mm below.

I suspect your beef with the bezel stems from lack of familiarity with the mechanical design. It's designed to have to be depressed to spin freely.

Comparing a decade-old Rolex with a modern Omega is not a fair comparison. Aesthetics aside, they're different watches. The new OR is meant to ape the old Rolex, not the new Sub-C, which would be a better comparison with the PO, no?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

hwa said:


> I suspect your beef with the bezel stems from lack of familiarity with the mechanical design. It's designed to have to be depressed to spin freely.


My bezel also turns without pressing it down. Are there any risks associated by operating it that way?


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

The anaconda appears to approve the OR


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> Thank you guys. I believe I have been over critical. Maybe I was in a bad mood at the time. I have no regrets.
> 
> T


No worries. Not everyone is going to be enamored with the OR. Your Omega is really stiff competition. I would be shocked if the OR met or exceeded that standard.

I bought the OR for an entirely different reason. I wanted a quality watch at a decent price point. I read all the reviews and was skeptical. I bought a pre-owned piece. I did not buy it because I wanted a Rolex Submariner clone. In addition to wanting to see what all the positive reviews were about, I wanted to see for myself if the engineering and craftsmanship were as good as everyone was saying. I had other preconceived issues/concerns as well but I won't go into them here.

When I opened the box I was pleasantly surprised. I really liked the watch.

I have owned other higher end Swiss watches and a few Seiko MM300s and, in my opinion, my OR matched the quality of the TAG Heuer 500M Aquaracer chronograpg I owned and is "close" to the Seiko MM300 I owned. "For me" that a $680 watch compared favorably to those two watches was/is amazing. I still feel that way.

Maybe this isn't happening but you shouldn't feel compelled to change you opinion of the OR because of us. If you're disappointed that's fine. Everyone is not going to love the OR. We do and we have gotten used to defending it and our ownership of it. No worries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

That picture with the anaconda is insane!!!!!! Beautiful shot and a little too close for me  You have bravely gone where no man has gone before with your OR!!!!


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## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Gab124 said:


> Checking the OR in with some co-workers


Awesome pictures. Thanks for sharing 

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## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

*Re: Ginaulta the Thread Dedicated to Ginault Owners (Officially Unofficial)*



TonyDennison said:


> The Omega is miles above the OR, and if the OR is close to the 14060, then I would say Omega is miles above Rolex 14060...just logic here. The PO is an amazing thing especially when compared to other watches Ive had and have held.


Thank you for sharing this comparison. 
For me it is nice to see that the OR can be compared to the PO. Both are beautiful watches.
I think you are right there seems to be a tiny amount of misalignment...not enough for me to worry about -but I don't think you are going crazy or being too critical. 
I loved the pictures, especially the picture with your little friend at the end


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Gab124 said:


> The anaconda appears to approve the OR


Great!

There is no way we can beat your pictures!


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> No worries. Not everyone is going to be enamored with the OR. Your Omega is really stiff competition. I would be shocked if the OR met or exceeded that standard.
> 
> I bought the OR for an entirely different reason. I wanted a quality watch at a decent price point. I read all the reviews and was skeptical. I bought a pre-owned piece. I did not buy it because I wanted a Rolex Submariner clone. In addition to wanting to see what all the positive reviews were about, I wanted to see for myself if the engineering and craftsmanship were as good as everyone was saying. I had other preconceived issues/concerns as well but I won't go into them here.
> 
> ...


Well stated. To this I would like to add that I don't recall a single review that called the OR "perfect". That would be a misnomer.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Radar1 said:


> Well stated. To this I would like to add that I don't recall a single review that called the OR "perfect". That would be a misnomer.


Well...except for those of us who do consider the OR to be perfect for what they wanted. It's no different than anything else in life. What is perfect for one person may not be perfect for another.

I am not the type of person to get hung up about minor imperfections in a watch. If it can't be seen with the naked eye or, in my case, with spectacles, I don't see it. I don't own a loupe and I don't want one. Jennifer Aniston is a beautiful woman but I would bet she's got some wrinkles because she's getting close to 50. I would further bet that we would see those wrinkles if we got real close with a magnifying glass. Great works of art "ain't" great works of art when your nose is an inch away from them. They look like a bunch of dots or brush strokes up close. Move 5 to 10 feet away and they are great works of art. Jennifer Aniston, for example, and those great works of art might be considered perfect to the right person or from the right perspective.

For me, the OR is perfect because what I wanted was a solid (well built) classic diver and that is just what I got. I am a happy camper!

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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

The last few pages have been a delightful read! People discussing the attributes of the OR in comparison to similar watches without turning into a street brawl. Who knew it could happen?

I have always been a giant fan of divers. Not sure why, how or when it happened exactly. I had been on the hunt for a diver that was less than 42mm, solidly made, wasn't overdone and most importantly fit my budget. This one reached out and grabbed my attention. I took a chance and jumped on it. 

I think what I like about it most is that it's subtle. I'm not into flash or flair. Unless you're a watch fan and really pay attention to what's on someones wrist you might not even take note of this one. When you do take not the OR moves to another level. The fit, finish, indices, bracelet, hands and timekeeping are nicer than most anything in this price point.

Does it have flaws.....maybe, but I can't seem to quit liking it long enough to look for them or find them. Am I bias????.....Heck yeah. I love this thing!!!!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

ChristoO said:


> The last few pages have been a delightful read! People discussing the attributes of the OR in comparison to similar watches without turning into a street brawl. Who knew it could happen?
> 
> I have always been a giant fan of divers. Not sure why, how or when it happened exactly. I had been on the hunt for a diver that was less than 42mm, solidly made, wasn't overdone and most importantly fit my budget. This one reached out and grabbed my attention. I took a chance and jumped on it.
> 
> ...


Very nice response and I could not agree more.

By the way, we are very nice and fun folk in this thread until and unless an intruder enters the inner sanctum to create chaos. Then we can get a little cranky.

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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

ChristoO said:


> The last few pages have been a delightful read! People discussing the attributes of the OR in comparison to similar watches without turning into a street brawl. Who knew it could happen?
> 
> I have always been a giant fan of divers. Not sure why, how or when it happened exactly. I had been on the hunt for a diver that was less than 42mm, solidly made, wasn't overdone and most importantly fit my budget. This one reached out and grabbed my attention. I took a chance and jumped on it.
> 
> ...


Completely agree about the friendliness of the discussion. I was a little hesitant to even contribute to a Ginault thread due to some of the personal attacks in previous threads. However, this one is is turning into a nice conversation.

On a side note, the Omega PO was compared to the Ocean Rover. While I don't have a PO, I do have a Ceramic Seamaster. The Omega is definitely nicer than the OR, but I wouldn't say miles above. Maybe the PO is much nicer than the SMPc though. I haven't held a PO in the flesh besides for a minute or two ad the AD.

Given that the real world price of the Seamaster is 3-4 times more than the Ginault, this really shows how nice the Ginault is. They're great watches, and I enjoy wearing both depending on my mood. I will say though that the double AR on the Omega is amazing! The crystal looks great at any angle, and often disappears.


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

Could this have turned into a place were we can openly appreciate this particular watch and possibly express that we like it while at the same time critique it without fear of being firebombed? 

Totally agree WJG16......I've not just been hesitant, but scared to post! I'm newer to watches and to the forums and didn't want to do anything that might lead to an attack. This watch was a rough one to start my collection and board discussions with, that's for sure! 

I sure do appreciate how nearly everyone on this thread has continued to try and make it a friendly place. I learn a little bit more about watches every time I wander through.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Fellas, you need never worry about posting honest opinions about the OR. Those who have been firebombed haven’t exactly entered the thread in a “nice” manner. All too often they came loaded for bear, throwing bombs themselves.

I am always open for a civil discussion of mutual respect but I have no tolerance for conspiracy theories. Nor do I tolerate well people who are looking to start a fight. I am on WUS because I want to have fun, hang out with other watch lovers, and learn.

Welcome aboard. You’ve already contributed very nicely!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Waaaaay too many posts without a pic so here's one.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Great thread, great comments. I've had a few days now with it on the wrist. Love the way it wears, balance and appearance to speak nothing of my love for the quality. I'm not a bracelet guy but this one I really enjoy and it is comfortable. I can't say enough about the crystal, I just love the smooth rounded edge of it and slight but not overstated dome. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Gab124 said:


> Great thread, great comments. I've had a few days now with it on the wrist. Love the way it wears, balance and appearance to speak nothing of my love for the quality. I'm not a bracelet guy but this one I really enjoy and it is comfortable. I can't say enough about the crystal, I just love the smooth rounded edge of it and slight but not overstated dome.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Well sadly for me my finances weren't looking too good so I had to sell my first OR and I do miss the cleanliness of the no-date dial but mostly the domed crystal.

Luckily though I still have my date version so all is still good in the universe.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Well sadly for me my finances weren't looking too good so I had to sell my first OR and I do miss the cleanliness of the no-date dial but mostly the domed crystal.
> 
> Luckily though I still have my date version so all is still good in the universe.


Sorry to hear that but...one Ocean Rover is better than no Ocean Rover.

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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> Sorry to hear that but...one Ocean Rover is better than no Ocean Rover.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Exactly and now I can look forward to getting another when finances allow!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Waaaaay too many posts without a pic so here's one.


Agree.

Hope you will be able to get your desired OR. In the meantime...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Straps!


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

I also agree about the pics. Happy Sunday! 








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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)




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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

To those who have removed the bracelet: how hard was it to get off (and back on)?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Avo said:


> To those who have removed the bracelet: how hard was it to get off (and back on)?


If you have done bracelet changes on other watches then this one is no more difficult than most.

Asuming that you haven't done to many bracelet changes it's not a difficult thing but it can be a little tricky as you need to hold the watch whilst being able to both put pressure on the Solid End Link whilst compressing the spring bar, then once you have one side of the spring bar released you need to keep pressure on that side so it doesn't slip back into the hole while you do the same compressing process of the other end of the springbar.

So if we had four hands it would make it very easy but as most of us only have two then it takes a bit of practice to do all of the required movements.

AND it is VERY easy to scratch the lugs if you are not VERY careful.

The OR is actually a little harder than many due to the very tight SEL to Lug clearance (which is a very good thing to have) but makes it harder to keep the springbar from slipping back in.

Getting it back on is easier but still has specific things to watch when doing it.

I have done this dozens of times so I am now able to do it fairly easily but for the first timer it can be frustrating and the likelihood of scratching the lugs is greater although it's the back of the lugs so can not be seen from the front but we still don't want scratches on any part of our ORs.

Not sure if this helps but it may give you a better idea of the degree of difficulty.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> To those who have removed the bracelet: how hard was it to get off (and back on)?


I bought one of this to facilitate the process. Can only recommend it.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I bought one of this to facilitate the process. Can only recommend it.


Info on where to buy please?

EDIT: Found em, looks like a great option, I'll give it a try. Cheers.


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## RustyBin5 (May 30, 2015)

They are actually quite peculiarly rare to see for sale on eBay which is about odd since everything from alpha to zenith sells on there. Not sure why. Maybe cos people dont sell them once they own them. Dunno 

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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

RustyBin5 said:


> They are actually quite peculiarly rare to see for sale on eBay which is about odd since everything from alpha to zenith sells on there. Not sure why. Maybe cos people dont sell them once they own them. Dunno
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Found a half dozen on the bay but around $100 so I may hold off for now.


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## Morgan24 (Aug 15, 2016)




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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Avo said:


> To those who have removed the bracelet: how hard was it to get off (and back on)?


I've R & R'ed many bracelets but I will admit the Ginault bracelet was a bit more of a challenge. I was using an inferior spring bar tool, that I have since replaced, but it was a bear to get off, and tricky to replace. I think I had to walk away and come back actually  The lug design is a bit more intricate I assume for an exacting fit.

After that I've decided to leave this watch on the bracelet. They are made for one another, and the glide lock clasp is a huge piece of the over all watch and I use the feature regularly. This watch doesn't appeal to me on straps. Of course there are many mil sub designs look great on nato's Zulu's leather etc, but not this one --


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

How bout conspiracy analysis?



rosborn said:


> Fellas, you need never worry about posting honest opinions about the OR. Those who have been firebombed haven't exactly entered the thread in a "nice" manner. All too often they came loaded for bear, throwing bombs themselves.
> 
> I am always open for a civil discussion of mutual respect but I have no tolerance for conspiracy theories. Nor do I tolerate well people who are looking to start a fight. I am on WUS because I want to have fun, hang out with other watch lovers, and learn.
> 
> ...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> How bout conspiracy analysis?


Sorry, you will have to look elsewhere. I'm not into conspiracy theories.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks for the info on bracelet removal. I am not experienced at all with this. A while ago I tried to remove the bracelet on my Sartego (a low-cost dive watch with a surprisingly nice SEL bracelet), but could not manage it; a local watch shop did, but said it was difficult and mangled the spring bars (which they replaced). So I think I will just leave the bracelet on the OR for now!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I also prefer the bracelet.


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## RustyBin5 (May 30, 2015)

59er said:


> Found a half dozen on the bay but around $100 so I may hold off for now.


I can't see any?

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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

RustyBin5 said:


> I can't see any?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here's one, there will usualy be similar items at the bottom of the ebay page.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watchmaker...m=312004929872&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Avo said:


> Thanks for the info on bracelet removal. I am not experienced at all with this. A while ago I tried to remove the bracelet on my Sartego (a low-cost dive watch with a surprisingly nice SEL bracelet), but could not manage it; a local watch shop did, but said it was difficult and mangled the spring bars (which they replaced). So I think I will just leave the bracelet on the OR for now!


Yeah mate I was going to ad the possibility of getting your local watchmaker to do it for you in my last post but I have seen some pretty bad damage done by crappy watchmakers and many of them never make it right but offer some lame excuse as to why they did bad work.

I do like the look of straps but much prefer a nice bracelet and clasp.


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## RustyBin5 (May 30, 2015)

59er said:


> Here's one, there will usualy be similar items at the bottom of the ebay page.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Watchmaker...m=312004929872&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851


lol I was talking about Ginault watches on eBay 

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## Adam_Micheal (Jul 5, 2016)

59er said:


> Waaaaay too many posts without a pic so here's one.


That's a beautiful piece


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

RustyBin5 said:


> lol I was talking about Ginault watches on eBay
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bugger, here was me thinking that I was helping you out :-(


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## RustyBin5 (May 30, 2015)

59er said:


> Bugger, here was me thinking that I was helping you out :-(


Ty anyway 

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## bluedevil704 (Jan 22, 2016)

Arrived yesterday! The photo sucks, I know. The watch, however, does not.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

bluedevil704 said:


> Arrived yesterday! The photo sucks, I know. The watch, however, does not.


Congratulations!

I find it quite difficult to shoot a good photo without too many reflections.


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Purchased my Ginaut around June last year. As I reside outside USA it took a few months for it to be delivered to me via a friend. I wanted to save the shipping and taxes. I have wearing it everyday for around six weeks. Mine is the no date version with sandlume. I love the dial and size of this watch. The only problem I m facing is my watch seems to be running very fast. I gain a minute atleast every 2-3 days. Has never been dropped etc. My 9 year old tag carrera seems to be more accurate even though it has only 12 hr reserve if unworn. The second issue I have is the clasp seems to make a rattling sound when pressed. A bit irritating. Ginault also seems to not reply to any kind of emails.

Apart from the accuracy and clasp I love the watch. Wears perfectly on my skinny wrist. I sold my new quartz 43mm Tag F1 after purchasing the Ginault. A signed clasp should be supplied in future releases.


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## RustyBin5 (May 30, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I find it quite difficult to shoot a good photo without too many reflections.


Slight angle. Outside in natural light but pref in the shade. It's a tricky one to snap favourably I'll grant you that









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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Purchased my Ginaut around June last year. As I reside outside USA it took a few months for it to be delivered to me via a friend. I wanted to save the shipping and taxes. I have wearing it everyday for around six weeks. Mine is the no date version with sandlume. I love the dial and size of this watch. The only problem I m facing is my watch seems to be running very fast. I gain a minute atleast every 2-3 days. Has never been dropped etc. My 9 year old tag carrera seems to be more accurate even though it has only 12 hr reserve if unworn. The second issue I have is the clasp seems to make a rattling sound when pressed. A bit irritating. Ginault also seems to not reply to any kind of emails.
> 
> Apart from the accuracy and clasp I love the watch. Wears perfectly on my skinny wrist. I sold my new quartz 43mm Tag F1 after purchasing the Ginault. A signed clasp should be supplied in future releases.


+1 minute every 2-3 days equals +20-30 secs/day. I think this is far away from what you should expect. Mine was running slow (which annoys me more than the opposite) and had it adjusted. Now it runs around + 5 secs/day. I can live with that..









Hope Ginault comes back to you and offers you a solution to your two issues. Mine (hour hand, adjustment & bezel spring) were solved in a professional way by its designated service center in EU. But I agree that they were more responsive/quick in the early stages than later on.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Yes, this is too fast and should be a warranty issue. The clasp also seems a like a warranty issue. I hope Ginault responds soon, three business days should be enough time for an initial response, IMO.


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## giandrius (Feb 7, 2018)

Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:

Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?

I live in the EU, so the import taxes would add to the Ginaults price, almost making in a no-brainer choice between Ginault and Omega, as you can buy Omega on every corner over here.

Can anybody help me decide please?


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## giandrius (Feb 7, 2018)

giandrius said:


> Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:
> 
> Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?
> 
> ...


Well maybe Seamaster is not a good example, but for instance Longines HydroConquest certainly is. You get the idea - a watch that's already proved itself vs a micro brand at the same price point.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

giandrius said:


> Well maybe Seamaster is not a good example, but for instance Longines HydroConquest certainly is. You get the idea - a watch that's already proved itself vs a micro brand at the same price point.


For me the decision was quite easy:
- around 40 mm size
- non-polished bracelet
- no date
- 120 clicks (instead of 60)
- blue lume

I also looked at the Seamaster 300 and I liked the design, but it didn't tick all the boxes.

There were other candidates, like Steinhart (they told me that they do not plan to offer their 39mm version without date) or Tisell (was in the waiting list and Ginault came across in the meantime).

I wrote Ginault and were offered 35% discount without having to make any review or 40% discount in exchange for a Youtube review. I went for the 35%.

They have a EU dispatch, so that I did not have to pay additional taxes or customs, just the shipping fee stated in their website.

I am happy with the watch, but can understand that you want to go for a more established brand.

Let us know what you decide in the end.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

giandrius said:


> Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:
> 
> Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?
> 
> ...


Well I've been lucky enough to get discounts on both of my Ginault purchases so ask the question and if there is a discount on offer then you can re-asses any comparison and hopefully you will find that the features of the OR are more attractive than other watches of that price range.

Good luck and let us know how you go.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

giandrius said:


> Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:
> 
> Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?
> 
> ...


You said it. "It's a no brainer". You should get the Omega and be done with it. You will appreciate it more for the reasons you mentioned and then some.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

giandrius said:


> Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:
> 
> Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?
> 
> ...


IMHO if you're contemplating the OR you are looking for a watch with a Submariner style, not just a dive watch. If you're looking in the $1.3-$1.5k range there are many heritage brand divers that would probably be a better fit for you, style aside.

But, as many other posters have noted, discounts should be available, putting the OR more in the $850 range.

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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I don't really understand the premise of the question. In the US, even a grey market Seamaster is $2,750. A Seamaster 300, even on the grey market, is $4,200. I bought my OR for $512 and, as stated, the current market price is around $850. 

IMO you buy the Ginault only after you already own the Omega, not instead of buying the Omega. This advice goes doubly so if your heart is truly set on owning a Seamaster. 

I can't tell you how many watches I have purchased instead of just ponying up for what I really wanted. I would've owned my MM300 quite a bit sooner if I hadn't purchased my fleet of Seiko divers on the way.

As a Ginault owner I can honestly say the Ginault is a great choice for those looking for vintage Rolex style, but in a watch leveraging modern components, having a warranty, and priced at a point you don't have to worry about knocking it about. An Omega beater it is not.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> I don't really understand the premise of the question. In the US, even a grey market Seamaster is $2,750. A Seamaster 300, even on the grey market, is $4,200. I bought my OR for $512 and, as stated, the current market price is around $850.
> 
> IMO you buy the Ginault only after you already own the Omega, not instead of buying the Omega. This advice goes doubly so if your heart is truly set on owning a Seamaster.
> 
> ...


Agree. Just get what you really want. Liky Ryeguy said...by the tome you've purchased all of the "close enough" watches you've already spent enough money to buy the watch you really want.

As for me...the Ocean Rover is nice enough that it has taken away any desire I had for other dive watches. It's just a simple classic diver that I am thoroughly satisfied with. It is perfect for me and I have to admit that I treat it just the same way I would treat a $3,500 watch. I like it snd I want to keep it looking nice. At the same time, I wear it everywhere...even in the field at construction sites. I got it November 3, 2017 and have been wearing it ever since.

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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

10 days with the Ginault....weird....my most favorite watch of all time. I know it's crazy. I know it doesn't compare the the Omegas I had or the Rolexes Ive held and borrowed, but there it is. Would I trade it for an Omega or Rolex SURE!!! but I would buy another Ginault that day and wear it.

If Gnault comes out with a smurf date No Bubble, I may have to buy one.

Seriously. I tried putting on the PO 3-4 times but it lasted on my wrist for about 40 seconds each time. Then I tell the Omega, "maybe tomorrow".

Very strange....its like there is a curse or some voodoo on the Ginault..... I admire the Omega from afar but can't take the Ginault off.

Also....and I know this may be premature and many people will call ........, but I no longer have ANY interest in the NEXT watch. All the watches I was considering for the future....I just have no interest.

The bezel is Rolex butter-smooth now. I lose 1 sec a day.... I may have it adjusted to +1- +3 but it doesn't really bother me at -1. I must admit I am dreading the thought of taking this to my watchmaker....I don't want the looks or comments...and Im generally not THAT guy.
I have no complaints and Ive decided that the misaligned bezel was my imagination.

I would like to formally apologize to Ginault for my disparaging remarks I made.

Is anyone else actually Hypnotized by the Genault other than me and the geologist?

T


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

well I have a 2500D Planet Ocean, and It hasn't seen my wrist since the Ginault came.. I have been hypnotized.

BUT, If I didnt have my Planet Ocean already, I wouldn't be able to sleep. I say get the Omega, then say up to get a Ginault (with a discount), if at all possible).

T



giandrius said:


> Hey Ginault lovers, trying to decide on my first dive watch, and Ocean-Rover looks like a neat choice, but here's one thing that's bothering me:
> 
> Ginault being priced as it is (1.3k and more), you don't need to pay much more in order to get an Omega Seamaster - already well established and trusted brand, with serviceable watches and long history and prestige. So why pick Ginault?
> 
> ...


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

TonyDennison said:


> 10 days with the Ginault....weird....my most favorite watch of all time. I know it's crazy. I know it doesn't compare the the Omegas I had or the Rolexes Ive held and borrowed, but there it is. Would I trade it for an Omega or Rolex SURE!!! but I would buy another Ginault that day and wear it.
> 
> If Gnault comes out with a smurf date No Bubble, I may have to buy one.
> 
> ...


Me. To be fair, I think it's the magic of Rolex's old design and dimensions, but I bought one of the new big lug ones a couple of years ago and just never warmed up to it. But yeah, I haven't found anything that hits the same buttons as the Ginault (except the old Rolex, of course, but I can't afford one of those any more).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Belloc said:


> Me. To be fair, I think it's the magic of Rolex's old design and dimensions, but I bought one of the new big lug ones a couple of years ago and just never warmed up to it. But yeah, I haven't found anything that hits the same buttons as the Ginault (except the old Rolex, of course, but I can't afford one of those any more).
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Yeah I have to agree, I am an avid fan of the 5 digit Submariner but wearing an 8 grand watch is simply not practical for me for many reasons so I have searched long and hard for a Sub Homage that will at least satisfy some of the attributes of a Rollie Sub but up until now none have ever come close to satisfying those desires.

Most of the other Homages have various features that simply don't compare although many have come close, I did have a Steinhart which for awhile I loved but found a little large and the case/lugs were too straight so didn't sit nicely on the wrist and the 22mm non tapering bracelet always felt out of proportion to me, the Squales also have great versions but again there is always something not quite right so have not committed to one of those and of course there are probably another half dozen Sub homages that although are all beautiful watches simply are not quite satisfying to the Sub lover.

So then along comes Ginault with what is arguably the closest thing ever to a 5 digit Sub but with the added feature of the sword hand set and the beautiful domed crystal so we now have what is essentially a Sub Homage but still different enough that they have their own credibility (IMHO) and with what appears to be great build quality (mainly referring to the fit and finish as I'm not a watchmaker so can't comment on the movement) and with a basic easily serviced movement.

So for me I now have a watch that I'm proud to own and wear and can go anywhere without the discomfort of worrying if I'm in a shady part of town or of being ridiculed by work colleagues for wearing a "luxury" watch (some of my buddies and work colleagues are pretty low brow) yet I get a buzz every time I wear it.

I guess it's a bit of an enthusiast thing and can likely only be understood by fellow enthusiasts.

I'll likely be ordering another down the track as although I LOVE my current OR I do miss my domed crystal no-date that I was unfortunately forced to sell due to finances being short awhile back.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> 10 days with the Ginault....weird....my most favorite watch of all time. I know it's crazy. I know it doesn't compare the the Omegas I had or the Rolexes Ive held and borrowed, but there it is. Would I trade it for an Omega or Rolex SURE!!! but I would buy another Ginault that day and wear it.
> 
> If Gnault comes out with a smurf date No Bubble, I may have to buy one.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the Twolight Zone!
- the geologist

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bluedevil704 (Jan 22, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> 10 days with the Ginault....weird....my most favorite watch of all time. I know it's crazy. I know it doesn't compare the the Omegas I had or the Rolexes Ive held and borrowed, but there it is. Would I trade it for an Omega or Rolex SURE!!! but I would buy another Ginault that day and wear it.
> 
> If Gnault comes out with a smurf date No Bubble, I may have to buy one.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Ginault has achieved something spectacular at this price point IMHO. I can only hope they are around long enough so we can enjoy their other creations (they mentioned in another thread they plan on a GMT in the 3rd or 4th quarter of this year).

But yes, I am hypnotized as well. This watch is not unlike the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

I also want to add that I fully support referring to everyone by their profession (i.e., geologist). Soon this forum will turn into a game of Clue.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

59er said:


> Yeah I have to agree, I am an avid fan of the 5 digit Submariner but wearing an 8 grand watch is simply not practical for me for many reasons so I have searched long and hard for a Sub Homage that will at least satisfy some of the attributes of a Rollie Sub but up until now none have ever come close to satisfying those desires.
> 
> Most of the other Homages have various features that simply don't compare although many have come close, I did have a Steinhart which for awhile I loved but found a little large and the case/lugs were too straight so didn't sit nicely on the wrist and the 22mm non tapering bracelet always felt out of proportion to me, the Squales also have great versions but again there is always something not quite right so have not committed to one of those and of course there are probably another half dozen Sub homages that although are all beautiful watches simply are not quite satisfying to the Sub lover.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the goodness of the basic design is there, along with that sweet crystal, the sword hands (which I prefer to the Mercedes), and even the red second hand. I too had to sell recently due to finances (up and down), but I hope to be in a better position if and when they come out with the GMT someone mentioned. If it's based on the old Explorer II, so much the better. I wore one of those for 15 years, and even if I could afford a new one, I don't care for the dimensions of that new design either. They will probably just base it on the old GMT Master though, and that would be cool too.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Dan3612 (Jun 18, 2017)

This is the right answer. I think it should come after the Omega.


Ryeguy said:


> I don't really understand the premise of the question. In the US, even a grey market Seamaster is $2,750. A Seamaster 300, even on the grey market, is $4,200. I bought my OR for $512 and, as stated, the current market price is around $850.
> 
> IMO you buy the Ginault only after you already own the Omega, not instead of buying the Omega. This advice goes doubly so if your heart is truly set on owning a Seamaster.
> 
> ...


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

TonyDennison said:


> 10 days with the Ginault....weird....my most favorite watch of all time. I know it's crazy. I know it doesn't compare the the Omegas I had or the Rolexes Ive held and borrowed, but there it is. Would I trade it for an Omega or Rolex SURE!!! but I would buy another Ginault that day and wear it.
> 
> If Gnault comes out with a smurf date No Bubble, I may have to buy one.
> 
> ...


Count me in too. I have a Davosa Ternos and Tisell Marine Diver, both of which were purchased before the Ginault, and I have no desire to wear them anymore. They're just sitting in my watch box, so I'll probably sell them off soon so someone else can enjoy them.

I actually get way more enjoyment out of wearing the Ginault than my Ceramic Seamaster. I'll wear the Omega because I feel like I SHOULD, because it's an Omega after all. However, I really find myself missing the Ginault when it is not on my wrist. I WANT to wear the Ginault. It is indeed very strange, but I know exactly what you mean.

I also completely agree about the smurf date no cyclops, but with a black datewheel like on some of their other models. If they do that combo, this may be my next watch.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

WJG16 said:


> Count me in too. I have a Davosa Ternos and Tisell Marine Diver, both of which were purchased before the Ginault, and I have no desire to wear them anymore. They're just sitting in my watch box, so I'll probably sell them off soon so someone else can enjoy them.
> 
> I actually get way more enjoyment out of wearing the Ginault than my Ceramic Seamaster. I'll wear the Omega because I feel like I SHOULD, because it's an Omega after all. However, I really find myself missing the Ginault when it is not on my wrist. I WANT to wear the Ginault. It is indeed very strange, but I know exactly what you mean.
> 
> I also completely agree about the smurf date no cyclops, but with a black datewheel like on some of their other models. If they do that combo, this may be my next watch.


Not the blue smurf version but definitely black date wheel without cyclops:










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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

rosborn said:


> Not the blue smurf version but definitely black date wheel without cyclops:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great! Change the indices to blue smurf and that would be perfect for me. Ginault are you listening....


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

WJG16 said:


> Looks great! Change the indices to blue smurf and that would be perfect for me. Ginault are you listening....


I, on the other hand, would love to have a no date OR.

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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

For mere personalet, I've been on the hunt for a Rolex submariner no date since buying my Speedmaster professional.... And have to admit that I have decided not to buy one, after ordering a Ginault. 

I just cannot justify the (huge) additional cost for the Rolex brand, when the Ginault hits the milsub look & feel at such a degree. 

I'm excited to receive my Ginault in a few weeks time. No, that's an understatement, I'm bloody well thrilled to receive it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> I, on the other hand, would love to have a no date OR.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well it's hard to come up with the perfect model to buy as there are at least three versions that I'd love to own, I love my current version and miss the one I sold but still have at least a third version on the wishlist.


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## GrounchOldGuy (Aug 6, 2017)

"the perfect model" I have the same problem of feeling guilty about not wearing my other watches. I keep waiting for the honeymoon effect to wear off but its been 6 months .... I think that the only solution will be for Ginault to produce another line of watches. I'm hoping for something like a rolex explorer. Tough, understated, classy, tough ...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GrounchOldGuy said:


> "the perfect model" I have the same problem of feeling guilty about not wearing my other watches. I keep waiting for the honeymoon effect to wear off but its been 6 months .... I think that the only solution will be for Ginault to produce another line of watches. I'm hoping for something like a rolex explorer. Tough, understated, classy, tough ...


I am also hoping Ginault decides to make an Explorer homage. If that were to happen I sell the Hamilton Khaki Field mechanical I just purchased.

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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GrounchOldGuy said:


> I have the same problem of feeling guilty about not wearing my other watches. I keep waiting for the honeymoon effect to wear off but its been 6 months ....


It's been over a year for me. I even bought another watch since then, and have two more on pre-order (deals too good to pass up!) but I still wear the Ginault 90% of the time.

I should sell some watches, but their visual value sitting in a watch display case is worth more to me than I could get for them.


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## Gab124 (Dec 3, 2013)

Have been busy and just caught up on the thread. Like the rest of you I have been loving the look, feel and wearability of my Smurf. I'm not a bracelet guy but I really like the comfort of this one, it's staying on. It tics all the boxes for me. Most watches I find something that doesn't work for me in the first week, so far this has none. It's just a great submariner at a good price with fantastic workmanship. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm a recovered attorney,

Call me "Recycled Counselor"



bluedevil704 said:


> Agreed. Ginault has achieved something spectacular at this price point IMHO. I can only hope they are around long enough so we can enjoy their other creations (they mentioned in another thread they plan on a GMT in the 3rd or 4th quarter of this year).
> 
> But yes, I am hypnotized as well. This watch is not unlike the monolith in 2001: A Space Odyssey.
> 
> I also want to add that I fully support referring to everyone by their profession (i.e., geologist). Soon this forum will turn into a game of Clue.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

To those of you waiting for a maxi dial, smurf, date, sans cyclops...why not just buy the one Ginault sells now with cyclops and take off the cyclops. Rather yet, ask Ginault to sell it to you without the cyclops installed. They’ve done that before.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> To those of you waiting for a maxi dial, smurf, date, sans cyclops...why not just buy the one Ginault sells now with cyclops and take off the cyclops. Rather yet, ask Ginault to sell it to you without the cyclops installed. They've done that before.


Good idea, thanks....I didnt know they did this


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

TonyDennison said:


> Good idea, thanks....I didnt know they did this


You are welcome. Unfortunately I found a flaw in my idea. That is, the existing smurf+date+cyclops has a white date wheel...not black...ugh! Back to square one!

I'm with you though...I'd buy a maxi dial+smurf+black date wheel sans cyclops in a heartbeat.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

:-(

last night Ginault lost 40 seconds. I set it this morning....when I pushed in the crown the watch ticked but the second hand did not move....then started....then I believe the watch completely stopped....then started.

I reset the time and the watch unhacked only when the crown was pushed ALL THE WAY in.

I notified Ginault and will await their reply.

Its always something.

Anyone else with this issue?

T


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

In the last 8 months or so, my Ginault has had 2 minor hiccups. They were one off incidents (pull crown, and it doesn't hack) and crown hard to pull out. So I just figured I would pay close attention. Luckily, it hasn't happened again.

That said. The weakness of the Ginualt is its movement. I am praying for the day it fails, as a brand new ETA 2824 is going in mine  Yes, it is an annoyance, and I agree, Ginault should look into selling an ETA version. Maybe I am crazy, and the fact I like working with watches, makes this appealing (since I know I can acquire and swap the ETA cheaper than any brand would charge if incorporated into their retail price).

But other than a few minor hiccups, the Ginault has been running amazingly, and continues to run beautifully today. I can't explain why, and it's probably one of those things I should keep to myself....but once I ordered my Ginault, I was first worried that it wouldn't show up. Then it showed up, and I was worried it would be running 30 seconds a day slow or something. I was waiting every day to wake up to a dead Ginault. I thought it would explode and I would have to come on here and say, Hey, the naysayers were right. I was duped, and bought a $hitter watch for $700. I even sent Ginault an email, because I thought the movement became dislodged (it turned out it was the rotor spinning noise!!!) Now though, that fear has subsided and I get to just enjoy my watch  (I think that fear lasted a month)

I believe Ginault will stand behind their product. They have given me no signs that they wouldn't when I emailed them. I seriously think that bad publicity and people bashing these watches is what caused me to second guess the watch. I am glad that I took the chance on the Ocean Rover. It has been with me through many adventures and I look forward to many more. I hope you have a similar experience and can enjoy it as well.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> In the last 8 months or so, my Ginault has had 2 minor hiccups. They were one off incidents (pull crown, and it doesn't hack) and crown hard to pull out. So I just figured I would pay close attention. Luckily, it hasn't happened again.
> 
> That said. The weakness of the Ginualt is its movement. I am praying for the day it fails, as a brand new ETA 2824 is going in mine  Yes, it is an annoyance, and I agree, Ginault should look into selling an ETA version. Maybe I am crazy, and the fact I like working with watches, makes this appealing (since I know I can acquire and swap the ETA cheaper than any brand would charge if incorporated into their retail price).
> 
> ...


To be completely honest, my OR has been flawless in its operation but, like you, I have been waiting/expecting "something" to go wrong with it. Almost all of my concern/worry can also be attributed to the negative posts tham dominated anything and everything with Ginault in the title for a while. Then I came to my senses (mostly) and realized that 90% of those poster never held an OR before posting and 90% of their comments were based on hearsay and speculation.

Not to go off on that tangent again...but the truth is I paid a little more for my pre-owned OR than I paid for some Seiko Sumos I've purchased. If, in the end, the movement dies and has to be replaced it won't be a big deal. That could happen with a pre-owned Rolex or Omega...too. If I purchased either of those brands pre-owned I would still be on the hook for the replacement movement. The difference being that the movement in the OR can be a fairly inexpensive ordeal and that would not be the case with a Rolex or Omega.

I've stopped worrying because worrying isn't going to allow me to enjoy this watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> You are welcome. Unfortunately I found a flaw in my idea. That is, the existing smurf+date+cyclops has a white date wheel...not black...ugh! Back to square one!
> 
> I'm with you though...I'd buy a maxi dial+smurf+black date wheel sans cyclops in a heartbeat.


Yep, that's the exact one I would want. It would seem to be easy enough for Ginault to make this combination, as all the existing parts are in other watches they produce. Take the model with the cyclops, remove the cyclops, and switch the date wheel to the black version from the Gold Sand model. I'm not ready to spend the money on that right now, but maybe Ginault would do that as a special order. Whoever gets that would definitely have a unique model.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

thanx

I ll keep the updates coming. I wish I had the ability to change a movement....I think I would just buy an ETA and switch it out.

T



JohnBPittsburgh said:


> In the last 8 months or so, my Ginault has had 2 minor hiccups. They were one off incidents (pull crown, and it doesn't hack) and crown hard to pull out. So I just figured I would pay close attention. Luckily, it hasn't happened again.
> 
> That said. The weakness of the Ginualt is its movement. I am praying for the day it fails, as a brand new ETA 2824 is going in mine  Yes, it is an annoyance, and I agree, Ginault should look into selling an ETA version. Maybe I am crazy, and the fact I like working with watches, makes this appealing (since I know I can acquire and swap the ETA cheaper than any brand would charge if incorporated into their retail price).
> 
> ...


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## cel4145 (Sep 17, 2015)

Anyone with an 8" wrist got a wrist shot photo? 

I'm considering the Ginault smurf, but worried because 40mm watches often seem too small on my wrist to me (no, I'm not worried about what other people think ). Ginault says in the first page of this thread that the bracelet is designed for up to 8.1" wrists, so I think I'm probably good on fit.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Ok, this is weird, embarrassing, maybe....

The G was running after my post 5 hours ago, I put it down and put on the omega....2 hours later I noticed the G stopped again....could it be out of energy? Ginault said NOT to wind it after the first time due to a weak something or other.

I wound it...ALOT.... and it started working again. This doesn't explain the ticking with no second hand movement but the lack of winding might explain the stoppage.

I always wind my omega 15 turns a day. The G site warned against doing this because of the weak stem (or something) so I never wound it after the first time, which was G's directions.....

Just now I wound it 60 turns....the crown didn't get noticeably tighter, and I did not hear a clutch click (like I hear on the Omega), so how do I know when to stop???

So now the question is, if in fact the watch stopped due to lack of energy, what is the notification that the watch is fully wound?????

Im going to check to see if I lose any time tonight and if not, I'm just going to wind the watch 30-40 turns every morning.

Any thoughts? what is the sign that the watch is fully wound. I do not feel the crown getting tighter and I don't hear a clutch click.

I figure Ill wind it every morning and if it craps out, I will use the warrantee and if more than a year, I will have someone put an ETA in it.

But for now, I will check time loss tonight.

T



TonyDennison said:


> thanx
> 
> I ll keep the updates coming. I wish I had the ability to change a movement....I think I would just buy an ETA and switch it out.
> 
> T


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well I've been working on mechanical devices for most of my life and like most of us I have come to expect maintenance and repair as a given so I have no real concerns if my OR does require some minor or even major work in the future.

If anything goes wrong in the short term then Ginault has so far proven to be more than reasonable in getting the issues sorted as far as issues reported by members so far and if somewhere down the track that is not a practical solution then an ETA 2824-2 (one of the most common swiss movements used in watches for the last 20 years) is reasonably cheap to service can be bought from most of the big parts suppliers for around the $200 mark and a couple of extra parts (H4 cannon pinion) and we're back in business.

SO Don't worry, be happy!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> Ok, this is weird, embarrassing, maybe....
> 
> The G was running after my post 5 hours ago, I put it down and put on the omega....2 hours later I noticed the G stopped again....could it be out of energy? Ginault said NOT to wind it after the first time due to a weak something or other.
> 
> ...


I have had a bunch of watches with the 2824-2 movements both ETA and Asian clones and I never manually wind them, just give them a half a dozen gentle shakes until the second hand starts to run then just wear them.

I believe the usual suggestion for these movement if experiencing problems is to let the power reserve run down fully and then give them a few hand winds and wear and see how it goes.

After that if there's still a problem it will need opening up to check the autowind mechanism.

I don't believe that daily winding is a good idea as if it needs this then there is definitely a problem which needs to be addressed.

Good luck.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Hmmm

ok, I will give it a couple days, but Ive been wearing it non stop since I received it, so if self winding was enough and if there is no issue with the movement, then it should not have died from lack of energy. sigghhh....

Thank you

T



59er said:


> I have had a bunch of watches with the 2824-2 movements both ETA and Asian clones and I never manually wind them, just give them a half a dozen gentle shakes until the second hand starts to run then just wear them.
> 
> I believe the usual suggestion for these movement if experiencing problems is to let the power reserve run down fully and then give them a few hand winds and wear and see how it goes.
> 
> ...


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

TonyDennison said:


> Ok, this is weird, embarrassing, maybe....
> 
> The G was running after my post 5 hours ago, I put it down and put on the omega....2 hours later I noticed the G stopped again....could it be out of energy? Ginault said NOT to wind it after the first time due to a weak something or other.
> 
> ...


To fully handwind a stopped ETA 2824-2 movement it takes 22 turns of the crown and then the clutch slips and you hear the clicking noise.
The power reserve is about 40 hrs for a "no date".


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

thank you,

This is what Im going to do, IF my watch works tonight, ... I will wind 20 turns every morning.

Nuff said....Thanks guys

T



kelt said:


> To fully handwind a stopped ETA 2824-2 movement it takes 22 turns of the crown and then the clutch slips and you hear the clicking noise.
> The power reserve is about 40 hrs for a "no date".


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Lol, I was going to ask if you wound it 

I would wear it non stop until you feel like taking it off. Write down the time you take it off (might as well check the power reserve while we are at it!!) then check it every 12 hours until it's dead. Figure out how long it lived for (just for fun....to really check the power reserve, it would have to be fully wound...which like said above is 22 FULL turns of the crown). 

Then, after it is dead. When you go to wear it, wind it 22 FULL turns (or around 40 half turns). It can't be overwound, so you are good.

The reason Ginault warned you against handwinding it too much, is because of a fault with the ETA 2824 (you can google it). In all honesty, life is short, I wind mine when it dies and I don't care if that is once a week or once a month. But I am through with being scared of an inanimate object. These things are meant to be enjoyed, and I like winding them. I will buy a new movement if it breaks (Living on the edge man!!!) 

If you turn off everything around you, and are in complete silence. Shake the Ginault next to your ear....do you hear a rotor spinning (you should!!) Maybe you just weren't that active that day, and it didn't spin enough. I think it's going to be ok. Did Ginault reply to you yet?


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Well,

I have lost more than 1 second in the last hour, so I emailed Ginault and told them I am sending it back. Not all that happy at the moment.

Thank you for your advise.

What can you do?

T



JohnBPittsburgh said:


> Lol, I was going to ask if you wound it
> 
> I would wear it non stop until you feel like taking it off. Write down the time you take it off (might as well check the power reserve while we are at it!!) then check it every 12 hours until it's dead. Figure out how long it lived for (just for fun....to really check the power reserve, it would have to be fully wound...which like said above is 22 FULL turns of the crown).
> 
> ...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> Well,
> 
> I have lost more than 1 second in the last hour, so I emailed Ginault and told them I am sending it back. Not all that happy at the moment.
> 
> ...


I think you're doing the right thing. I hope Ginault resolves it quickly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I just can't believe this. Man, just as I was coming around. Well its one way to get the Omega back on my wrist.

T



rosborn said:


> I think you're doing the right thing. I hope Ginault resolves it quickly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

final update before the return....

Watch will run for 15 seconds if wound or shaken, then it poops out. Not sure what this means mechanically.

T


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> I just can't believe this. Man, just as I was coming around. Well its one way to get the Omega back on my wrist.
> 
> T


You're going to have to sell it now because it will always be tainted gor you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I wish they would just drop an ETA in it....

I may have to give up on the dream.

TD



rosborn said:


> You're going to have to sell it now because it will always be tainted gor you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> I wish they would just drop an ETA in it....
> 
> I may have to give up on the dream.
> 
> TD


Well, you know that's not going to happen at Ginault...maybe at an independent watchmaker but not at Ginault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> :-(
> 
> last night Ginault lost 40 seconds. I set it this morning....when I pushed in the crown the watch ticked but the second hand did not move....then started....then I believe the watch completely stopped....then started.
> 
> ...


Well, not that issue specifically, but I received mine last week. Wound it up and put it on my Wieshi 1900 and then my Lepsi Watch Analyzer. Both showed very, very odd readings that wouldn't stabilize. By odd, I mean abnormal ramping up and down and abrupt changes with little or no consistency.

Opened it up and found there was excessive lube on the seal and visible (with a loupe) debris inside the case, which I assume accounted for the very odd and inconsistent readings.

It was returned this week and I'm awaiting a replacement.

Hopefully a one-off issue.

I'll update with more details and the final outcome when it's settled.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

How long before they responded to you? 
What was the return process like? 
Do you feel confident?

I am considering:

1- exchange and hope for the best
2-return and move on
3- buying an ETA and dropping it in
4-asking if Ginault will drop in an ETA

Thanks

T



StephenCanale said:


> Well, not that issue specifically, but I receive mine last week. Would it up and put it on my Wieshi 1900 and then my Lepsi Watch Analyzer. Both showed very, very odd readings that wouldn't stabilize. By odd, I mean abnormal ramping up and down and abrupt changes with little or no consistency.
> 
> Opened it up and found there was excessive lube on the seal and visible (with a loupe) debris inside the case, which I assume accounted for the very odd and inconsistent readings.
> 
> ...


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> How long before they responded to you?
> What was the return process like?
> Do you feel confident?


Took a few days to hear back (a weekend was involved as well).

They emailed me a pre-paid Priority Mail label. It was just delivered back to them yesterday.

I have no reason to think they won't correct the issue promptly, either replacing the watch or just swapping out the movement.

When all is said and done I'll report back.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

StephenCanale said:


> Opened it up and found there was excessive lube on the seal and visible (with a loupe) debris inside the case, which I assume accounted for the very odd and inconsistent readings.


This is more troubling than you know (or may know). One of the claims about the movement in the Ocean Rover is that is is made in the USA. One claim of evidence for that fact is that, when opened and inspected, the movement is clean and does not have excess lube, unlike Chinese made movements which, apparently, have an over abundance of debris and lube. I am beginning to have a niggle of doubt now. I am not going to act like Chicken Little and run around screaming that the sky is falling but I am going to keep a close eye on this thread, particularly those posts where members have opened their Ocean Rovers and report on the appearance of the movement, and start keeping a record of those reporting abundant debris and over lubrication. This, to me, points to a potential Chinese source of the movements. I'm not saying the movements are made in China but your findings are disturbing and too much like descriptions of what is a common finding with Chinese movements.

Man... Something is starting to smell around here and I am really hoping your example is just a one off example of "sloppy" workmanship on Ginault's part and not a sign of greater deception. I truly am hoping this is the case.

- the geologist


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Guys any mechanical watch movement is quite complex considering the tiny size of everything and it doesn't take too much to foul something up.

I've heard many such experiences with even the high dollar watches so it's not an uncommon thing.

Obviously we all hope that this won't be the case with OUR particular watch but unfortunately it does happen and it's really no reason to lose confidence or to start doubting the quality of the watch.

Just give the warrantee process a go and hopefully you'll have a nicely running OR before long.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Guys any mechanical watch movement is quite complex considering the tiny size of everything and it doesn't take too much to foul something up.
> 
> I've heard many such experiences with even the high dollar watches so it's not an uncommon thing.
> 
> ...


For me it has more to do with what Stephen described regarding the debris and excess lube in the movement when he opened the caseback. That description is more akin to the description of a Chinese made movement than anything else. In fact, one poster, long ago, when reiterating comments from his watchmaker said man looked at the movement in his Ocean Rover and commented that it was too clean and did not have excessive lube, like Chinese movements do, to be a Chinese movement. That leads me to a couple of conclusions:
1. Ginault is using Chinese 2824 clones and had cleaned them up really well prior to Stephen's watch, or
2. The movement in Stephen's watch is just a one off that was actually made by Ginault but just was not tidied up after the manufacturing and assembly process.
Either could be true and I will certainly refrain from drawing a definitive conclusion until more evidence is gathered. However, my spider senses are tingling...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

FWIW, multiple brands struggled with Soprod A-10's reliability due over oiling. Steinhart, for example, seems to have stopped using the movement altogether in their "premium" line, switching back to the ETA 2892-2. The Soprod is definitely "Swiss Made", so issues like this are not indicative of movement origin. 

From what I've read here and elsewhere, low end Chinese movements are more typically found dry than over oiled. A dry movement will run, but wear more quickly. Over oiled movements have more noticeable issues earlier on. 

This said, my OR is back to Ginault for symptoms similar to what TD is experiencing. The watch ran perfectly for a year with solid accuracy, then the power reserve died. 

I could hear the auto wind mechanism working, but shaking the OR enough times to comparatively get my Seiko's to run for hours would only get the OR to run for a few seconds. 

My SWAG is the mainspring is slipping or broken, unable to store power generated by the auto wind mechanism or crown. (side note, I don't regularly hand wind my 2824-2 powered watches.)

If my SWAG is correct, the irony is I believe the mainspring is one of the components purchased by Ginault (Swiss origin) and not machined in the US. This was part of the Made in the USA controversy.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

G contacted me this morning. Watch is in the mail. They did not offer to pay for shipping which I thought was odd, and they suggested I over wound the watch. I replied explaining that I did not wind the watch (virtually at all) until the problems started....we will see.

T


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

It's always disappointing to hear about such problems and of course much more disappointing when it happens to us and the smart money would be to just buy a Quartz cheapy and likely get decades of reliable uninterrupted use or better still simply use our phones to tell us the time.

But we as enthusiasts subject ourselves to this sort of torture in able to have something that seems to have more value and interest and to give us a reason to look, listen and feel for every new brand and model that comes along hoping to get that buzz yet again.

Such is the life of an obsessive enthusiast, I wish I wasn't one but alas I have suffered with this affliction my whole life and my sickness includes all the usual trinkets, cars, motorcycles, guitars etc: as well as watches.

If I was a simple man with limited tastes and no obsessions my life would have been a lot easier and my bank account would be a lot healthier!

Hopefully Tony your watch will soon be back in your hands and I sincerely hope that you will again come to love it.

If not then there's plenty of others to start a new obsession with, I know as I'm battling yet another purchase that I can't afford right now.


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## marco escobar (Feb 28, 2010)

Really love this one. Checks all the boxes.









Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Well,

I hear what you're saying but I dont think it is acceptable for a $1,000 watch die in 10 days. In fact the only watch Ive ever had that did this was a chinese replica, So I have to disagree, but I do understand where you're coming from.

I agreed that having a watch that gains or loses 2 seconds a day is certainly no quartz or telephone and the additional qualities of a mechanical are well worth the 2 seconds. But for $1,000 to turn in to a paperweight in a week is beyond the pale.

I am certainly going to try to be optimistic....they say 8 weeks.

T



59er said:


> It's always disappointing to hear about such problems and of course much more disappointing when it happens to us and the smart money would be to just buy a Quartz cheapy and likely get decades of reliable uninterrupted use or better still simply use our phones to tell us the time.
> 
> But we as enthusiasts subject ourselves to this sort of torture in able to have something that seems to have more value and interest and to give us a reason to look, listen and feel for every new brand and model that comes along hoping to get that buzz yet again.
> 
> ...


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Hey Tony, sorry to hear about the problem with your Ginault. I guess one could argue that being a micro brand, i.e. A much smaller operation than the big boys, that QA may not be as fine tuned. They also have a percentage of their watches with issues when they leave the factory which must be returned for service. The true test of a company is how they address these problems. Remember, Ginault is a fledgling, still developing and fine tuning their operation and probably not too different from any other new watch company. Let's hope your problem is resolved to your satisfaction. 

I have been considering buying an Ocean Rover. Still not sure which one to purchase. Presently thinking about the Black Dial/ Black Bezel Smurf and the Black Dial/Blue and Gold Bezel Gold Sand Lume No Cyclops Date. To complicate things Ginault will be coming out with 3 new variants in the next 2 months: 
1) Black Dial/ Black Bezel No Cyclops Date Smurf (BGW9 Lume)
2) Black Dial/ Black Bezel Flat Crystal Cyclops Date Smurf
3) Gold/ Blue Bezel/Gold Sand Lume Cyclops Date, but with black date on white- beige Date wheel to compliment the Gold Sand Lume. 
So OK Guys! Looking for your thoughts. Do I order now or pre-order one of the new variants?


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

That sucks. I am sure they will take care of it, and your watch will be back in no time. In the mean time, enjoy the Omega and when the Ginault comes back, put it through a 30 day, hard as nails constant wear test. Maybe I am strange, but for some reason I have way too much fun living life to the fullest and not caring about the watches welfare. My Ginault has been in the ocean, playing in the sand on North Carolina beaches, canoeing in PA, landscaping, snow removal, shooting (target practice, I am not The Terminator), playing tennis (unfortunately, I am not Rafael Nadal either), and many more crazy activities!!!! (also, it can't be overwound by design!!) 

Hoping your Ginault comes back to you quickly and running better than ever!!!!


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Eye Doc said:


> Hey Tony, sorry to hear about the problem with your Ginault. I guess one could argue that being a micro brand, i.e. A much smaller operation than the big boys, that QA may not be as fine tuned. They also have a percentage of their watches with issues when they leave the factory which must be returned for service. The true test of a company is how they address these problems. Remember, Ginault is a fledgling, still developing and fine tuning their operation and probably not too different from any other new watch company. Let's hope your problem is resolved to your satisfaction.
> 
> I have been considering buying an Ocean Rover. Still not sure which one to purchase. Presently thinking about the Black Dial/ Black Bezel Smurf and the Black Dial/Blue and Gold Bezel Gold Sand Lume No Cyclops Date. To complicate things Ginault will be coming out with 3 new variants in the next 2 months:
> 1) Black Dial/ Black Bezel No Cyclops Date Smurf (BGW9 Lume)
> ...


#1 is what several of us have been waiting for! It sounds like you got this information straight from Ginault themselves. If so, this is great.

I'd suggest you wait for the new variants to come and see what you like then. There's no reason to rush. I don't think prices are going up anytime soon.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Eye Doc said:


> Hey Tony, sorry to hear about the problem with your Ginault. I guess one could argue that being a micro brand, i.e. A much smaller operation than the big boys, that QA may not be as fine tuned. They also have a percentage of their watches with issues when they leave the factory which must be returned for service. The true test of a company is how they address these problems. Remember, Ginault is a fledgling, still developing and fine tuning their operation and probably not too different from any other new watch company. Let's hope your problem is resolved to your satisfaction.
> 
> I have been considering buying an Ocean Rover. Still not sure which one to purchase. Presently thinking about the Black Dial/ Black Bezel Smurf and the Black Dial/Blue and Gold Bezel Gold Sand Lume No Cyclops Date. To complicate things Ginault will be coming out with 3 new variants in the next 2 months:
> 1) Black Dial/ Black Bezel No Cyclops Date Smurf (BGW9 Lume)
> ...


Well I've already tried to make the point about defects from all levels of manufacturers, just google any brand including 10 grand Rollies and you will find people who have had problems with new and near new examples as a zero defects situation is just not possible given the laws of physics applied to mechanical devises.

As far as your choice it is really only you that can decide, it's not an easy choice as all of the models have their particular features that are attractive to me.

My first purchase was the original black bezel no-date sand lume model and then recently bought the black dial, maxi markers and hands, blue lume date with cyclops but I would be more than happy to have any model in my watchbox.

Good luck with your decision.

And here is mine from an earlier post.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

My first watch with an ETA 2824 was a Christopher Ward Malvern Aviator Mark I. It ran within COSC for a month, then started losing time and finally stabilized at about -30s per day after a few weeks. I sent it back to CW. They fiddled with it & sent it back. Then, same story: fine for a month, then started losing time again, again ending at -30s/day. I sent it back again, asking for a new movement. They agreed that they didn't know what was wrong with it & replaced the movement with another ETA. 

It's been fine ever since.

Except that it gets almost no wrist time anymore, because so much wrist time goes to my OR, which is still running at +4s/day after one year ...

Moral: it sucks if your watch has a problem, but that does not necessarily mean anything about the underlying quality of the device in question.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Avo said:


> My first watch with an ETA 2824 was a Christopher Ward Malvern Aviator Mark I. It ran within COSC for a month, then started losing time and finally stabilized at about -30s per day after a few weeks. I sent it back to CW. They fiddled with it & sent it back. Then, same story: fine for a month, then started losing time again, again ending at -30s/day. I sent it back again, asking for a new movement. They agreed that they didn't know what was wrong with it & replaced the movement with another ETA.
> 
> It's been fine ever since.
> 
> ...


Agreed. To be completely honest, I have had ETA and Selitta movements that were all over the map...regardless of how much wrist time they got...regardless of what position I placed them when I wasn't wearing them. The wort was a Glycine, with an ETA 2824-4, that died one month in. I had to have the movement replaced. Five months later the crown fell out. I had the crown replaced and sold is ASAP because it was clear the watch and I were a toxic combination.
I am guessing my OR is a year old (guessing because just like that dog you get from the shelter, you never r...e...a...l...l...y know exactly how old your watch is) and it is running great. Absolutely no issues. I haven't even been checkung its +\- spd rate, though I know it's running a little slow.
My earlier hysterics should be disrarded. Subsequent pists have been very sober and cogent with sound advise and clear examples of movements with solid histories behaving in similar manners. In other words, I lost my head for a moment, or two, and went off on a tangent I should not have. My apoligies to all.
- the geologist

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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Don't worry geologist, it happens to the best of us


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

59er said:


> It's always disappointing to hear about such problems and of course much more disappointing when it happens to us and the smart money would be to just buy a Quartz cheapy and likely get decades of reliable uninterrupted use or better still simply use our phones to tell us the time.


There are plenty of circumstances where a phone isn't practical, usable, or allowed.

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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

nothing else to say except.......


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

and I can only reply with . .


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

G4_Chrono said:


> and I can only reply with . .
> 
> View attachment 12889067


Drilled lugs, great improvement, could you provide some side views of the drilled case, I wish Cinault would provide such options, how hard was it to have it drilled?

I would not replace the red second hand, just get the tip bare for easy reading in poor light.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Tried to get the bracelet off mine last night and it appears to be impossible, lol. I have taken off quite a few bracelets and this one is just not coming off for me. I know this was talked about recently in here. Does anyone have any more pointers to get it off?


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

mplsabdullah said:


> Tried to get the bracelet off mine last night and it appears to be impossible, lol. I have taken off quite a few bracelets and this one is just not coming off for me. I know this was talked about recently in here. Does anyone have any more pointers to get it off?


I mentioned I had a difficult time also, and I've swapped out bracelets many many times too. These are pretty exacting fit and they have a little ledge underneath that is most unique. I did get mine off, but not with out a fight and a scratch or two. I've decided straps don't do it justice and spoils the look to me. I put the bracelet back on, and it will stay on for good. I have a Kiger sub that is far more adaptable


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

mplsabdullah said:


> Tried to get the bracelet off mine last night and it appears to be impossible, lol. I have taken off quite a few bracelets and this one is just not coming off for me. I know this was talked about recently in here. Does anyone have any more pointers to get it off?


I'm no help. I like the bracelet too much to ever want to swap it for a strap.

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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I recommend investing in a pair of Horofix spring bar pliers.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I actually prefer bracelets on all of my watches however I think at this point I want to get the bracelet off just to not admit defeat, lol.


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

The endlink fit is so nice that I don't want to remove the bracelet and risk having it not fit as tightly when I put it back on. Plus, in my opinion this watch looks perfect with the bracelet, so no need to change to a strap!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Agree. The Ginault looks much better on bracelet.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yes they are difficult, mine will still be coming off periodically for bracelet ultrasound but I'm getting reasonably good at getting them on and off.

The worst part is that even if you take it to a watch shop there's still the likelihood that they will also scratch it up if they aren't proficient which in the days of Mall and pop-up watch shops is all too common.

A trained watchmaker (if you can find one) will get it off in seconds.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Sunrise with the OR.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

59er said:


> Yes they are difficult, mine will still be coming off periodically for bracelet ultrasound but I'm getting reasonably good at getting them on and off.
> 
> The worst part is that even if you take it to a watch shop there's still the likelihood that they will also scratch it up if they aren't proficient which in the days of Mall and pop-up watch shops is all too common.
> 
> A trained watchmaker (if you can find one) will get it off in seconds.


Any tips you can offer to take it off? What tool(s) are you using?


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

It seems I can’t even manage a full day without wearing my Ocean Rover. I own three watches and am truing to sell one of them, it isn’t the OR.
So, I got the OR 11/03/17. It was my only watch. I decided I needed a quartz analog and got a Scurfa Diver One. Nice watch. At 42MM it is simply too large for my wrist and the OR wouldn’t get off my wrist.

I just bought a 40mm Field Hamilton Khaki mechanical. It’s a nice watch. Really has a vintage vibe and I do like it. I wore it for 12 hours yesterday. I could not wait to get home to put my OR back on.
I may be becoming a one watch guy.


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## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)

As soon as they come out with the GMT, I am all over it. I love hearing how happy people are with these.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)




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## cel4145 (Sep 17, 2015)

cel4145 said:


> Anyone with an 8" wrist got a wrist shot photo?
> 
> I'm considering the Ginault smurf, but worried because 40mm watches often seem too small on my wrist to me (no, I'm not worried about what other people think ). Ginault says in the first page of this thread that the bracelet is designed for up to 8.1" wrists, so I think I'm probably good on fit.


So no 8" wrist Ginault owners?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mplsabdullah said:


> Any tips you can offer to take it off? What tool(s) are you using?


Mate it's mainly about getting the right amount of pressure to compress the springbar whilst at the same time keeping pressure on the end link in order to allow the end link to move slightly which then stops the springbar end from dropping back into the lug hole and then once one side is done you still have to hold that pressure whilst then working on the opposite side of the springbar.

Due to the very tight endlink to lug clearance the endlink movement is minimal so it's hard to keep the right amount of pressure on all of the required points and in the right direction in order to get both sides of the springbar released at the same time.

I have a couple of sptingbar tools but mostly just use a small screwdriver as it's actually easier most of the time for me anyway.

Getting the bracelet back on is also a little different with these due to the tight SEL and I usually have to manipulate the springbar end in order to get it to fully seat.

I have one of those back-lit desk magnifiers so it makes it all a lot easier.

Keep in mind though that due to the various contortioned positions of your fingers and hand and the pressures and angles you are using it is VERY easy to draw blood if you slip with the springbar tool or screwdriver so be warned!

Good luck!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> It seems I can't even manage a full day without wearing my Ocean Rover. I own three watches and am truing to sell one of them, it isn't the OR.
> So, I got the OR 11/03/17. It was my only watch. I decided I needed a quartz analog and got a Scurfa Diver One. Nice watch. At 42MM it is simply too large for my wrist and the OR wouldn't get off my wrist. The Scurfa is for sale.
> I just bought a 40mm Field Hamilton Khaki mechanical. It's a nice watch. Really has a vintage vibe and I do like it. I wore it for 12 hours yesterday. I could not wait to get home to put my OR back on.
> I may be becoming a one watch guy.
> ...


Yeah I'm finding the same myself, I have a few nice watches and I do often put them on in the morning but so far I haven't kept them on for the whole day as the OR just seems more comfortable or that's my perception anyway.

Size is a funny thing as I have from 40 - 44mm watches and if I wear the big ones after the OR they seem huge but if I wear the OR a 40mm after the big ones then it seems small.

The other "Problem" if I can call it that is that I often flip watches in order to finance the next and to satisfy my unquenchable desire for another new watch but not only don't I want to sell my OR but I find that even when I find something to lust over I'm just not sure if it will get wrist time due to how much I seem to want to have the OR on my wrist so I worry that the expense of another will be wasted.

My last purchase was a Spinnaker which I love but don't wear anywhere near as much as the OR and the purchase before that was my first OR.

Oh and I had a Hamilton Khaki as well and yes it was a beauty but long ago sold as I'm afraid I just have to have a numbered bezel.


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Had a question about the OR bracelet clasp. Does a rolex ceremic sub bracelet clasp fit the Ginault OR bracelet?


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Yeah I'm finding the same myself, I have a few nice watches and I do often put them on in the morning but so far I haven't kept them on for the whole day as the OR just seems more comfortable or that's my perception anyway.
> 
> Size is a funny thing as I have from 40 - 44mm watches and if I wear the big ones after the OR they seem huge but if I wear the OR a 40mm after the big ones then it seems small.
> 
> ...


Here is my Hamilton...









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## powasky (Jun 25, 2011)

Brey17 said:


> As soon as they come out with the GMT, I am all over it. I love hearing how happy people are with these.


My understanding is that we'll be seeing a GMT in the second half of 2018. Ginault as also mentioned coming out with some original designs, but didn't commit to a timeline.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

powasky said:


> My understanding is that we'll be seeing a GMT in the second half of 2018. Ginault as also mentioned coming out with some original designs, but didn't commit to a timeline.


I would be all over a homage to the Rolex Explorer or an Omega Aqua Terra. I would purchase one and be very content with my diver ( Ocean Rover) and field (Terra Rover?) watches...especially if the Ginault field watch is of the same quality as my Ocean Rover.

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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

cel4145 said:


> So no 8" wrist Ginault owners?


I am a bit over 8" and the fit and perception are fantastic !. Takes a couple days to get used to if you normally wear a 45mm watch, but becomes very natural very quickly.

Have no fear but give it a few days..

T


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## cel4145 (Sep 17, 2015)

TonyDennison said:


> I am a bit over 8" and the fit and perception are fantastic !. Takes a couple days to get used to if you normally wear a 45mm watch, but becomes very natural very quickly.
> 
> Have no fear but give it a few days..
> 
> T


Got any wrist shot photos? 40mm is borderline for what I like, and I'm not sure the dial will look big enough for me.


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## jatherly (Oct 7, 2015)

Anyone seen this before (off their Taiwan Facebook page)? Based on that dial quality it actually looks like a knockoff of a Ginault (head explodes).


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Are the hour markers painted on?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yeah seems to be listed on the Taiwan site (didn't know there was one) and currently offering some sort of special deal at around $630usd on strap option only.

Nice but I'm still a fan of that glossy dial and applied indices so not sure about this one.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Hand built in America, for sale in Taiwan! FTW!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Eye Doc said:


> Are the hour markers painted on?


Yep looks like a fully printed dial in the style of the Rolex 5510?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Gilt relief or gold print? Gilt relief would be special 


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as a knockoff (queue the irony). Many WIS have expressed interest in a "clean" OR, stripped of all that gibberish on the dial.

Some members have even communicated this interest, along with a written commitment to purchase in advance, directly to Ginault.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Purple Hayz said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this as a knockoff (queue the irony). Many WIS have expressed interest in a "clean" OR, stripped of all that gibberish on the dial.
> 
> Some members have even communicated this interest, along with a written commitment to purchase in advance, directly to Ginault.


So what are you saying hayz...that Ginault made a special OR for the Asian market?

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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

hwa said:


> Hand built in America, for sale in Taiwan! FTW!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are you implying hwa?

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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Yep looks like a fully printed dial in the style of the Rolex 5510?


Niice, although the red second hand does not fit here, IMO.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Do you know if Ginault sells the Ocean Rover clasp as spare part?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Hand built in America, for sale in Taiwan! FTW!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


i get the snark, but doesn't Ginault have a distribution center / service center (distributer) in Taiwan? They claim to do this in order to more conveniently import watches into China and make the purchase process / future product service less difficult for local market customers. They did the same in Europe with a member here having used that localized center.

They are either honest in their built (let's say "assembled") in the USA claim or making significant investments to perpetuate a very long con.

As to this particular watch, I don't see this as any different than the local market specials done by brands such as Steinhart. All they are doing is having a new dial made. Maybe they are using Taiwan as a test market to gauge the popularity of the new look.

Personally, I would prefer the old glossy dial, but with the new reduced text.

If nothing else, it demonstrates Ginault is listening to the market. The text on the original dial design has always been one of the most common negative points brought up in reviews.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I think the new dial is great looking, as is the original plus or minus the text, which justifiably has adherents and detractors. You can sell a lot of watches with those designs, and of course many many many do. 

I am implying that I find it interesting that this “new” homage dial reportedly is being offered only in watches hand built in US, but sold only in Asia. The business justification to build it here and sell it there makes no obvious sense, and it makes me wonder at the reason. 

Some micros—i know of two, NTH and Halios—have sent batches to off-shore warehouses to help with non-north American distribution. But they held some back for their North American customers, too. Those micros don’t build in North America, but they do the final QC in North America. 

What is there to suggest that this particular dial would not be of interest in America, where it’s going to be hand built with pride by flag waving Americans eager to pass along the benefits of their new tax breaks? Watches that look exactly like that are sold here by the thousands, by all sorts of manufacturers. 


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> So what are you saying hayz...that Ginault made a special OR for the Asian market?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Indeed. John tells me that several different versions of the OR dial were printed during the design phase, including a few two-line variants. No word yet on availability, however...


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> I think the new dial is great looking, as is the original plus or minus the text, which justifiably has adherents and detractors. You can sell a lot of watches with those designs, and of course many many many do.
> 
> I am implying that I find it interesting that this "new" homage dial reportedly is being offered only in watches hand built in US, but sold only in Asia. The business justification to build it here and sell it there makes no obvious sense, and it makes me wonder at the reason.
> 
> ...


i like to think I have pretty decent reading comprehension skills but I am struggling to understand what you are trying to convey.

Steinhart makes a blue Tudor 9411 homage except with a GMT complication and 24 hour bezel insert. It is a hot looking watch and I'm certain they would sell a ton here, except they don't. They are only available through an Asain distributor. Is this something that we consumers should be concerned with, in your opinion? Does it diminish Steinhart in any way?

I'm not certain what tax breaks or flag waving have to do with anything.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Here is the link:
https://ginault.com/zh-hant/吉諾錶-海洋遊俠-185066c1lvd/

You can place the order (pretty easy if you know how the Ginault's web is), then, without leaving the page, go to Ginault's English web, place an order for another watch and, finally, remove it from the shopping cart to just have the 185066C1LVD. Beautiful, I must admit.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Here is the link:
> https://ginault.com/zh-hant/吉諾錶-海洋遊俠-185066c1lvd/
> 
> You can place the order (pretty easy if you know how the Ginault's web is), then, without leaving the page, go to Ginault's English web, place an order for another watch and, finally, remove it from the shopping cart to just have the 185066C1LVD. Beautiful, I must admit.


Wow! I really, reslly like the layout of that dial. I prefer the construction of the American/European marketed Ocean Rovers and by by that I mean the porcelein face and awesome indices versus the printed features of the Asian market Ocean Rover. But...if I could have my dial construction with this dial layout I would jump on one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> Wow! I really, reslly like the layout of that dial. I prefer the construction of the American/European marketed Ocean Rovers and by by that I mean the porcelein face and awesome indices versus the printed features of the Asian market Ocean Rover. But...if I could have my dial construction with this dial layout I would jump on one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Different references. This one channels the gilt dialed 77-84 5513s with the maxi indices, whereas the US/Euro ORs look more like the 14060s (and late 5513s) with the white gold surrounds.

I think my perfect OR would be combination the two: minimalist, two line dial text on the glossy dial with the framed indices.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Purple Hayz said:


> Different references. This one channels the gilt dialed 77-84 5513s with the maxi indices, whereas the US/Euro ORs look more like the 14060s (and late 5513s) with the white gold surrounds.
> 
> I think my perfect OR would be combination the two: minimalist, two line dial text on the glossy dial with the framed indices.


That's what I was getting at. Your perfect OR would be my perfect OR.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

No need to go through the Taiwan site, here's a direct link to purchase:

https://ginault.com/product/ocean-rover-185066c1lvd/


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Specs the same as the others? If so, good to see the pricing has settled down. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Disl


hwa said:


> Specs the same as the others? If so, good to see the pricing has settled down.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No. The reply I got from John is that it is the "entry" version of the OR. strap only, no bracelet, movement not regulated over the same 6 week period, lume is printed making it not as strong as the applied indices. Dial is printed gold, although I thought that's the same as the current OR.

Also supposedly not available in the States yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

hwa said:


> Specs the same as the others? If so, good to see the pricing has settled down.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Seems to be an offer limited in time. And it sold without bracelet.


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

I think Ginault may find a market for just pushing Rolex and Tudor models in their extremely nice case. But I would love them to offer an original design sooner than later. Still enjoying mine, and hoping to see Ginault grow and push the boundaries with their manufacturing connections.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> I think Ginault may find a market for just pushing Rolex and Tudor models in their extremely nice case. But I would love them to offer an original design sooner than later. Still enjoying mine, and hoping to see Ginault grow and push the boundaries with their manufacturing connections.


That's what I was thinking last night. Ginault has proven they can make a darn fine watch with the Ocean Rover. I would really like to see them come out with a field type watch of their own design. Field watch cases are similar enough across manufacturers that they could make one without it being a homage to any one watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

Double post


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> That's what I was thinking last night. Ginault has proven they can make a darn fine watch with the Ocean Rover. I would really like to see them come out with a field type watch of their own design. Field watch cases are similar enough across manufacturers that they could make one without it being a homage to any one watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Is that the blue bezel?


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

Another month and I'll have all the cash I need to get a Ginault (provided John is still running the 35% off special) in the meantime I'm patiently waiting!    

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

You will find that the chase and the wait for a new watch is half the fun. My wife makes fun of me on how long it takes me to do the research for my next watch purchase.
I personally love it and you will too (as long as you have patience). ENJOY THE WAIT!


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

Eye Doc said:


> You will find that the chase and the wait for a new watch is half the fun. My wife makes fun of me on how long it takes me to do the research for my next watch purchase.
> I personally love it and you will too (as long as you have patience). ENJOY THE WAIT!


I've been doing my research/homework/saving money since back in October . You are correct about the wife. Mine has been laughing at me for over a month lol . It's been fun I will say I'm glad I didn't jump the gun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Eye Doc said:


> You will find that the chase and the wait for a new watch is half the fun. My wife makes fun of me on how long it takes me to do the research for my next watch purchase.
> I personally love it and you will too (as long as you have patience). ENJOY THE WAIT!


Yep and that's why we are on these forums, watches would be pretty boring if all we did was buy them without research and look at them to tell the time and even admiring our watches or better still our collections is made better when sharing them with fellow enthusiasts.

My wife laughs at how often I stop to take a wristie whenever the opportunity arises.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

59er said:


> My wife laughs at how often I stop to take a wristie whenever the opportunity arises.


My wife and kids roll their eyes and think I'm an idiot whenever I've done this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

No posts from anyone for awhile so to break the drought here's another wristie, not too scenic today I'm sorry but my only pic oportunity so far.


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## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

Just heard that my order (placed on 17th Jan) is currently going through EU Customs. Fingers crossed I should have it sometime next week. :-! b-)


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Gray day with cranes and other construction equipment in the background. My Ocean Rover gets the job done whether it's in the office or in the field.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Helping with the picture drought.


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## FourR36 (Dec 25, 2017)

One of my favorites in my humble collection, and likely the closest I'll ever get to a pre-ceramic Sub. Love it.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

So I got mine in a couple weeks ago and have noticed it's running fast, about 20-30 seconds a day sometimes. The sheet I got with it said it was regulated to 0.0 spd. I have emailed John and the last response was send it back and we will look at it for you. 6-8 week turnaround. What the hell?!?! Anyone get any warranty repairs through them yet? Love the watch other than the accuracy issue, can't be away from it for 2 months. Thanks for the input!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> So I got mine in a couple weeks ago and have noticed it's running fast, about 20-30 seconds a day sometimes. The sheet I got with it said it was regulated to 0.0 spd. I have emailed John and the last response was send it back and we will look at it for you. 6-8 week turnaround. What the hell?!?! Anyone get any warranty repairs through them yet? Love the watch other than the accuracy issue, can't be away from it for 2 months. Thanks for the input!


I had to send it to replace the hour hand and to fix the bezel(spring was broken). Very satisfied with Ginault and its EU service center.

Look forward to hearing back from you.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I had to send it to replace the hour hand and to fix the bezel(spring was broken). Very satisfied with Ginault and its EU service center.
> 
> Look forward to hearing back from you.


How long did your repair take?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> How long did your repair take?


Few days. I got my watch back in less than a week.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Mirror, mirror on the wall...


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Good to hear. I countered with send me a new one that works right and take as long as you want figuring this one out. I'll post up the response.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

DevilDogDoc said:


> So I got mine in a couple weeks ago and have noticed it's running fast, about 20-30 seconds a day sometimes. The sheet I got with it said it was regulated to 0.0 spd. I have emailed John and the last response was send it back and we will look at it for you. 6-8 week turnaround. What the hell?!?! Anyone get any warranty repairs through them yet? Love the watch other than the accuracy issue, can't be away from it for 2 months. Thanks for the input!


Ginault has been very good with regulating the watches before sending them out. Your watch may have been banged too hard or magnetised during transport.

You have the option to have it de-magnetised locally or if its not the case you may have it checked and regulated locally and ask Ginault to pick up the bill, or you can send it back to Ginault for repairs.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

kelt said:


> Ginault has been very good with regulating the watches before sending them out. Your watch may have been banged too hard or magnetised during transport.
> 
> You have the option to have it de-magnetised locally or if its not the case you may have it checked and regulated locally and ask Ginault to pick up the bill, or you can send it back to Ginault for repairs.


I have demagnetized it myself a few times with no luck. That's what I think that in spite of what they have said mine was not regulated. I would have no issue getting it regulated local if they will pay for it of course.


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Were you wearing it? When worn, my Ginault has ridiculous accuracy. But leave it in the watchbox for a couple days, the movement seems to drift (anything outside of it's usual +-2SPD I call drifting...lol, mine is a beast!!!) There have been times when I get a new watch, and have left my Ginault for 2 weeks in the watchbox. Then I reset it, and it was running wild!!! It just takes a day or two of constant wear and it will be good.

Before sending it away. Wear it for 3 days straight. I would be wiling to bet this is what it is. The Ocean Rover is a wild horse and doesn't like being in the stable...so it bucks and revolts


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> Were you wearing it? When worn, my Ginault has ridiculous accuracy. But leave it in the watchbox for a couple days, the movement seems to drift (anything outside of it's usual +-2SPD I call drifting...lol, mine is a beast!!!) There have been times when I get a new watch, and have left my Ginault for 2 weeks in the watchbox. Then I reset it, and it was running wild!!! It just takes a day or two of constant wear and it will be good.
> 
> Before sending it away. Wear it for 3 days straight. I would be wiling to bet this is what it is. The Ocean Rover is a wild horse and doesn't like being in the stable...so it bucks and revolts


Same here. My Ocean Rover doesn't like sitting in the corner like it's being punished. I caught it pushing my Hamilton Kahki under the bed so I wouldn't find it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

I've worn it consistently the past 2 weeks. They want it back for 6-8 weeks to check it and re-regulate it. Sigh. I'll pay the 65 bucks my local guy charges and go from there.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Six to eight weeks is not an unusually long time for a warranty repair in the world of watches. You can find plenty of posts here at WUS about much longer wait times from manufacturers at all price levels. 

If it were me, I would send it back. For one thing, I have plenty of other watches to wear. More importantly, if something seriously wrong is discovered by your local guy, you will most likely have voided the warranty and have no further recourse with Ginault. 

I had a Christopher Ward with an ETA 2824 that refused to stay regulated. It would run fine for a month or so, then over the course of a couple of weeks move to -30s/day. CW couldn't figure out what was wrong with it, and eventually replaced it, but it took two round trips to England to get it sorted.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Valid point you make there. I suppose I should send it and wait it out. Thanks for good advice.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

The OR with storm approaching.


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

Waiting for the shipment notification for mine...I hate waiting for watches!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Mine completely died and is back for 6-8 weeks too...

T



DevilDogDoc said:


> So I got mine in a couple weeks ago and have noticed it's running fast, about 20-30 seconds a day sometimes. The sheet I got with it said it was regulated to 0.0 spd. I have emailed John and the last response was send it back and we will look at it for you. 6-8 week turnaround. What the hell?!?! Anyone get any warranty repairs through them yet? Love the watch other than the accuracy issue, can't be away from it for 2 months. Thanks for the input!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

CERN changed your quote, now it's "Magic Mirror on the Wall"...just sayin



GarbanzoNegro said:


> Mirror, mirror on the wall...


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

The Pontiff has spoken. Archieluxury dumps on the 'Ginhat'. No surprises there


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Here is mine with bgw9 lume but that sunlight just shines .









Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> The Pontiff has spoken. Archieluxury dumps on the 'Ginhat'. No surprises there


And that's the trouble with youtube, it allows any fowl mouthed fool to voice his opinions.

Why anyone would listen to him I just can't fathom.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> And that's the trouble with youtube, it allows any fowl mouthed fool to voice his opinions.
> 
> Why anyone would listen to him I just can't fathom.


Oh...Archie is harmless. I find him humorous. I would never watch him with my wife or kids in the same room. He has admitted that his reviews are mostly schtick.

Besides. This means Ginault has atrived!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

erik2133 said:


> Here is mine with bgw9 lume but that sunlight just shines .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What is your wrist size? Looks great on you!


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

schmoud said:


> What is your wrist size? Looks great on you!


Thanks! ☺I dont know tbh, never measured my wrist. But for reference 40mm is my sweetspot and 43mm is the most i can take. Hope that helps.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Another wristshot! ☺









Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

erik2133 said:


> Thanks! ☺I dont know tbh, never measured my wrist. But for reference 40mm is my sweetspot and 43mm is the most i can take. Hope that helps.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


I would saybetween 6.75" and 7.25" then. That's my wrist size and, like you, my sweet spot is 40MM but I can go up to 43/44MM.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I would saybetween 6.75" and 7.25" then. That's my wrist size and, like you, my sweet spot is 40MM but I can go up to 43/44MM.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


How do you measure your wrist? Also forgot to mention 50mm is the most i can take for lug to lug.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

Nice!! I ordered that exact one, the Smurf. Just waiting for the email that it shipped and then I can obsess over the tracking number!


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

schmoud said:


> Nice!! I ordered that exact one, the Smurf. Just waiting for the email that it shipped and then I can obsess over the tracking number!


 Good choice.I like it more because of its versatility. One little change in color of indecies and it makes a different watch. More modern. I am sure u will enjoy it. Dial in sunny days looks stunning.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Definitely an excellent choice. I agree about the dial. There's just something about the way it looks under bright, natural light.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

erik2133 said:


> How do you measure your wrist? Also forgot to mention 50mm is the most i can take for lug to lug.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


I use a seanstress measuring tape that my wife got in a sewing kit years ago. It's flexible and you can wrap it snugly around your wrist.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I use a seanstress measuring tape that my wife got in a sewing kit years ago. It's flexible and you can wrap it snugly around your wrist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

erik2133 said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


You are welcome. Us Ginault fans have to stick together and help each other out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

That's the same way I measured mine. 6.75" so 40mm is really the upper end of where I go anymore. One of my first "good" watches was 43mm but as soon as I tried some smaller ones I was hooked and am planning on selling the 2 over 40mm I have. The watches in my regular rotation are 36mm, 38mm, 39mm, and 40mm.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Ha ha - It seems like there's about 6 of you that keep this thread going.. Who in the heck came up with this "smurf" moniker anyway. I'd like to take their watch away and stick them in the corner with the dunce hat on. So degrading to the brand you profess to love. smurf, really? :roll:

I am a Ginault owner too btw


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Riddim Driven said:


> Ha ha - It seems like there's about 6 of you that keep this thread going.. Who in the heck came up with this "smurf" moniker anyway. I'd like to take their watch away and stick them in the corner with the dunce hat on. So degrading to the brand you profess to love. smurf, really? :roll:
> 
> I am a Ginault owner too btw


Well you'll have to take Ginault to task as they are the ones who used "The glowing Smurf" moniker on the website. although I have often heard it on other watch forums as well, no sillier than the "Hulk" being used to describe the green dial/bezel Rollies I suppose.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

First of the month shot.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

59er said:


> Well you'll have to take Ginault to task as they are the ones who used "The glowing Smurf" moniker on the website. although I have often heard it on other watch forums as well, no sillier than the "Hulk" being used to describe the green dial/bezel Rollies I suppose.


Doh o| Pathetic. I'm shocked :-x What are ya gonna do. A sad state affairs. Ginault :-s


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

I like the Smurf, and it's glowing! :-d


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

kelt said:


> I like the Smurf, and it's glowing! :-d


Nice! Here is mine too 









Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Riddim Driven said:


> Ha ha - It seems like there's about 6 of you that keep this thread going.. Who in the heck came up with this "smurf" moniker anyway. I'd like to take their watch away and stick them in the corner with the dunce hat on. So degrading to the brand you profess to love. smurf, really? :roll:
> 
> I am a Ginault owner too btw


Yeah seems like a good bunch to earn their keeps

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

erik2133 said:


> Nice! Here is mine too
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Howcome this more teel than blue compared to kelt's picture?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> Howcome this more teel than blue compared to kelt's picture?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


I noticed it too  when i put it in a strong light and it charges up its more of a superluminova color and then in natural light it naturally changes to blue in a matter of seconds.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> Howcome this more teel than blue compared to kelt's picture?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Also my picture doesnt have a filter. So that could make a difference in color.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

erik2133 said:


> I noticed it too  when i put it in a strong light and it charges up its more of a superluminova color and then in natural light it naturally changes to blue in a matter of seconds.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


So the lume color changes depending on how you charge it? Hm&#8230;is that defective ?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> So the lume color changes depending on how you charge it? Hm&#8230;is that defective ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


No lol when i charge my lume on a strong lightbulb its more of a green and then changes within seconds to blue. Maybe because of strong light intensity. But when it charges up from natural sunglight its blue and stays blue.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> Doh o| Pathetic. I'm shocked :-x What are ya gonna do. A sad state affairs. Ginault :-s


Isn't there a blue Rolex sub called the Smurf?


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Darwin said:


> Isn't there a blue Rolex sub called the Smurf?


Initially there were 99 smurf, but since the 1970s, the tribe has grown in numbers. b-)


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Such an awesome watch. Mine says Hi....


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

One of mine, as well...


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

Darwin said:


> Isn't there a blue Rolex sub called the Smurf?


The white gold submariner with the blue dial and bezel is sometimes called the Rolex Smurf


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

My Smurf says hi!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> Mine completely died and is back for 6-8 weeks too...
> 
> T


Oh no! Didn't you have issues with the first one you got too? I mailed mine back yesterday, now the waiting begins, again....


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Oh no! Didn't you have issues with the first one you got too? I mailed mine back yesterday, now the waiting begins, again....


Good luck! Let us know how this ends.


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

I placed my order on February 18th and still haven't received a shipment notification or anything else for that matter. :-/ Maybe speed is not their thing, likely not more than a few person operation. Could be why the service time-frame is so long.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

schmoud said:


> I placed my order on February 18th and still haven't received a shipment notification or anything else for that matter. :-/ Maybe speed is not their thing, likely not more than a few person operation. Could be why the service time-frame is so long.


Yep when I ordered mine the site said 3-5 days to ship. Then I was told there was a delay and it would be another 10-15!days even though it was in stock per the site. Took right at 3 weeks to get it. Speed is definitely not their thing.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

erik2133 said:


> No lol when i charge my lume on a strong lightbulb its more of a green and then changes within seconds to blue. Maybe because of strong light intensity. But when it charges up from natural sunglight its blue and stays blue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Thats really interestinf how the color changes based on intensity.

How is the quality of this thing compare to the other su homage divers? Like the tisell?

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> Thats really interestinf how the color changes based on intensity.
> 
> How is the quality of this thing compare to the other su homage divers? Like the tisell?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


I never handled any other sub homage other than the Ginault. I was actually in for a 39mm Steinhart because of its appealing size but i couldnt take that shiny ceramic bezel on a preceramic sub homage. Just a big NO. Other choices i had were Squale 1545 and Davosa Sub homage. After seeing reviews on youtube comparing the Ginault to these 2 watches, it was obvious that the Ginault dominates both in attention to detail, built quality, and true indentity in the heritage of Rolex Sub history. Also i like the fact that it has a bit of everything from Rolex. Like for example the caseback is much like the one on a seadweller, second hand inspired by the yachmaster, and milsub hands from the Rolex Milsub which are super expensive. So there is a good choice of everything. Hands and indecies are forged so they look better than normal, dial looks stunning as it is enamel in normal natural light. Case machining is second to none. I slide my finger around the edges of the lugs they are almost paper sharp. Yes its true. Bracelet is well built. Never handled the new Rolex Sub bracelet but this one is very well built much better than Squale 1545 or Davosa's sub homage. Its got bevelled edges even on the bracelet, the way the links are rounded off for comfort is really nice. Clasp is a glidelock and works really good. What else i can tell you? Ocean Rover rocks in the sub homage market.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> Thats really interestinf how the color changes based on intensity.
> 
> How is the quality of this thing compare to the other su homage divers? Like the tisell?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Sorry forgot to mention before i got my Ginault, almost bought the Tisell but changed my mind because ive seen how poorly the end links are machined on the bracelet and are out of proportion. They stick out from the case and its buggy in my opinion. But not a big deal for its price range. So still a good watch. If you like attention to detail. Ginault is the watch to go for.









Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

DanBYU said:


> Thats really interestinf how the color changes based on intensity.
> 
> How is the quality of this thing compare to the other su homage divers? Like the tisell?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


I have not handled any other Sub homages either but my Ocean Rover has been flawless. I bought it pre-owned from another forum member. I received it November 3, 2017 and I have not taken it off my wrist since that day, except to shower. I wear it, literally, all of the time, something that I have not done in a very long time.

Yes, it is a Sub homage but, for me, it is just a really well made traditional dive watch. I don't pretend it's a Rolex or tell people it's a Rolex. I don't flaunt it around like you might be tempted to do with a Rolex...because...after all...it ain't a Rolex. But, I love it and treat it like it's a Rolex. However, at the same time, I wear it in all situations. I have a Timex Ironman that I used to wear when I was overseeing construction projects, so my nice watch wouldn't get damaged, but I haven't worn that watch since I got my Ocean Rover. Despite the "rough" treatment it still looks new!


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## jmai (Apr 7, 2017)

Whenever Ginault releases a ceramic version, I'm all in for one.


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

jmai said:


> Whenever Ginault releases a ceramic version, I'm all in for one.


I am not against ceramic bezels. I didnt like the Steinhart for 2 reasons; 1. You never put a ceramic bezel on a pre-ceramic 5 digit. 2. It is just too shiny. There are good ceramic bezels that are visible and then there are mirror-like bezels. Steinhart 39mm black is one of them.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

jmai said:


> Whenever Ginault releases a ceramic version, I'm all in for one.


the less shininess of the aluminium insert supports the very good overall tool-look of the Ocean Rover imho


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

erik2133 said:


> I am not against ceramic bezels. I didnt like the Steinhart for 2 reasons; 1. You never put a ceramic bezel on a pre-ceramic 5 digit. 2. It is just too shiny. There are good ceramic bezels that are visible and then there are mirror-like bezels. Steinhart 39mm black is one of them.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


You dodged a bullet there for other reasons entirely: case profile, lug profile, crown guards. Had a v.1 OVM (the 42mm 5517 homage) and those three things killed the watch for me. The 39mm looks a tad better (from the photos I've seen, I've not handled one), though, probably due to the proportions.

The OVM has an aluminium bezel insert, not ceramic, but the three features I mentioned are common to all Ocean One watches be they 39mm or 42mm.


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## xpstranger (Feb 1, 2018)

schmoud said:


> I placed my order on February 18th and still haven't received a shipment notification or anything else for that matter. :-/ Maybe speed is not their thing, likely not more than a few person operation. Could be why the service time-frame is so long.


I placed mine on the 11th and received order confirmation right away. I got shipment notification on 26th. Nothing in between. So about 10-11 working days. You'll probably get yours next week.


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

thanks for the info!


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

DanBYU said:


> Thats really interestinf how the color changes based on intensity.
> 
> How is the quality of this thing compare to the other su homage divers? Like the tisell?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


I happen to have a Tisell and Davosa in addition to the Ginault, so I can weigh in. Also, see the mini review I did comparing the 3.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181070lsiln-review-4606055.html

All 3 are great quality, but the fit and finish gets better as you move up the price scale. It is very difficult to show this in pictures, but you can definitely feel the difference in hand. To me, the Ginault feels very refined. Almost like a fine piece of jewelry. The Davosa, especially on the chunky bracelet, feels more like a rock solid tool watch. 
One of the aspects I like the most about the Ginault, and like the least about the others is the bracelet. The Ginault bracelet is light and comfortable, sometimes so much so that I forget I'm wearing the watch. The bracelet on the Davosa is comfortable, but doesn't taper as much, so it feels heavier and chunkier. I find the Tisell bracelet to be pretty uncomfortable, and do not like how the endlinks look. The Tisell bracelet is the weak link on an otherwise nice watch.

I was originally going to get rid of the Tisell, but after putting it on a nato, I find myself wearing it more often. Getting rid of the supplied bracelet really seems to improve this watch. Now I think I'm going to sell off the Davosa, but who knows....I'll probably change my mind yet again.

It really comes down to how much you want to spend. I do think the Ginault is worth the price, and the Tisell is an amazing value, as long as you can live with the bracelet or okay with switching to rubber or nato. The Davosa is kind of in a no mans land for me now. If I want to wear a nice sub homage, I go with the Ginault. If I want the beater, I go with the Tisell, and the Davosa isn't getting much wrist time anymore. They all are keeping great time.

Hope this helps! Here is a pic of the 3 together.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Snow Rover


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

WJG16 said:


> I happen to have a Tisell and Davosa in addition to the Ginault, so I can weigh in. Also, see the mini review I did comparing the 3.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181070lsiln-review-4606055.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for your review. Totally agree with you in saying that the bracelet of the Ginault is super light and got the extra comfort.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Only one. Had it for 10 days I think then kaput. I have email 2-3 times asking if there are any ideas on the ptoblem....no response. They made me pay shipping and tried to blame me for the problem when I first contacted them on the dead paperweight.

Kinda Shi**y



DevilDogDoc said:


> Oh no! Didn't you have issues with the first one you got too? I mailed mine back yesterday, now the waiting begins, again....


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Got it. I thought you had another defective one. Love mine but 30 seconds a day for "6 week regulated" watch is ......... My unregulated Squale runs 15 a day. I had to pay out of pocket to ship mine too.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Does the bracelet fit a 9" wrist? 

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Does anyone know if the bracelet can fit a 9" wrist with a lil room left for comfort?

I dont like tk wear my watch too tight.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Oh no! Didn't you have issues with the first one you got too? I mailed mine back yesterday, now the waiting begins, again....


Mine is also back at Ginault. Wasn't happy with the lume performance of the 'BGW9' markers. Mine was performing more like C1 (it was one of the smurf prototype models). Fully charged it was only legible for 45 mins. They have had it a week and still no response to a couple of emails requesting an update. This is a little disappointing.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Guys, whatever you do, don't buy any high-end watches!

You can find posts here at WUS about watches far more expensive that the Ginault, kept for repair for many months, and then returned with the same defect.

Your watches are most likely in a queue waiting to be looked at. There is nothing that can be told to you until they are.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> Guys, whatever you do, don't buy any high-end watches!
> 
> You can find posts here at WUS about watches far more expensive that the Ginault, kept for repair for many months, and then returned with the same defect.
> 
> Your watches are most likely in a queue waiting to be looked at. There is nothing that can be told to you until they are.


Not exactly true. I sent a JLC into the US service center (Richemont) in Jan and had a written response within 5 days with a detailed assessment of what work was needed and the turnaround time. 
All I'm expecting from Ginault is a confirmation of receipt and an estimate as to how long it will take to evaluate the issue. Not too much to ask.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Porsche993 said:


> Not exactly true. I sent a JLC into the US service center (Richemont) in Jan and had a written response within 5 days with a detailed assessment of what work was needed and the turnaround time.
> All I'm expecting from Ginault is a confirmation of receipt and an estimate as to how long it will take to evaluate the issue. Not too much to ask.


The JLC US service center probably has more employees. I'm not making excuses for Ginault but I sent a Sinn UX back to Germany for a battery and oil change and they had it so long I forgot I even owned it. Not that but it cost me $265 for FedEx shipping with insurance to get it there and another $265 to get it back.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Not that but it cost me $265 for FedEx shipping with insurance to get it there and another $265 to get it back.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Not sure I'd be using Fedex. This $85K AP was apparently stolen by an employee. Empty box was delivered.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f90/stolen-ap-royal-oak-skeleton-rg-j65872-4651151.html

I shipped a watch to Germany via USPS Express Mail insured for less than $85. There are cheaper options.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Porsche993 said:


> Not sure I'd be using Fedex. This $85K AP was apparently stolen by an employee. Empty box was delivered.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f90/stolen-ap-royal-oak-skeleton-rg-j65872-4651151.html
> 
> I shipped a watch to Germany via USPS Express Mail insured for less than $85. There are cheaper options.


No doubt but Sinn requested it be shipped FedEx.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> Not exactly true. I sent a JLC into the US service center (Richemont) in Jan and had a written response within 5 days with a detailed assessment of what work was needed and the turnaround time.
> All I'm expecting from Ginault is a confirmation of receipt and an estimate as to how long it will take to evaluate the issue. Not too much to ask.


Ginault is lightning fast for repairs and communication when compared to Rolex.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I can confirm that my communication in regard to any complains has been handled pretty fast by John. Sometimes it needs some time to get a reply, but nevertheless, John is always very friendly and helpful.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I also got always a reply from Ginault (some times it took up to a week). 

And my experience with the EU service center has been very positive the two times that I sent my watch. 

Hope the US is as fast and customer oriented as its European counter-partner. 

Please let us know how it ends.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> Mine is also back at Ginault. Wasn't happy with the lume performance of the 'BGW9' markers. Mine was performing more like C1 (it was one of the smurf prototype models). Fully charged it was only legible for 45 mins. They have had it a week and still no response to a couple of emails requesting an update. This is a little disappointing.


I'm genuinely curious, what can they do for this?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Jtragic said:


> I'm genuinely curious, what can they do for this?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Easy fix, replace dial and hands or relume existing parts, unless it was sold at a discount as a prototype?


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> I'm genuinely curious, what can they do for this?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh so this is a defect? I think i have this c1 effect too but only when i charge it with strong flashlight after it changes to blue. In natural its blue in the start and stays blue. My lume is strong though. Should i be worried?

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

erik2133 said:


> Oh so this is a defect? I think i have this c1 effect too but only when i charge it with strong flashlight after it changes to blue. In natural its blue in the start and stays blue. My lume is strong though. Should i be worried?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


Hey, don't be worried! The BGW9 OR's get about 5-6hrs visible night legibility. YMMV. The sand lume dials are stronger. BGW9 has varying degrees of strength, like all lume types it depends on method and amount of application. Enjoy your watch to the max! You said "Your lume is strong".

Folks expecting notifications and turnarounds in a weeks time have great expectations that are wholly unrealistic. Chill. Don't jump to conclusions, and wear the watch for a while before you look for failure. John is very long suffering dealing with the OR wIs community.

I've sent watches for relume and 6 months was standard wait time, almost to the day on several occasions. The work was amazing and it takes great talent, though dial replacement is far easier if that's an option.

BTW, my BGW9 OR was supposedly 1 of 6 or so that were being launched first to test the market. I guess the test proved successful


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> Hey, don't be worried! The BGW9 OR's get about 5-6hrs visible night legibility. YMMV. The sand lume dials are stronger. BGW9 has varying degrees of strength, like all lume types it depends on method and amount of application. Enjoy your watch to the max! You said "Your lume is strong".
> 
> Folks expecting notifications and turnarounds in a weeks time have great expectations that are wholly unrealistic. Chill. Don't jump to conclusions, and wear the watch for a while before you look for failure. John is very long suffering dealing with the OR wIs community.
> 
> ...


 Good to know. Yes, strong, my concern was the color. Mine is somewhere between bgw9 and c3. Wondering it its fine within the bgw9 tolerances. Though i dont think i will ship it back for a re-lume because this is not a big deal for me.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

kelt said:


> Easy fix, replace dial and hands or relume existing parts, unless it was sold at a discount as a prototype?


No not discounted as a prototype. I see hardly any activation in daylight. Only when its blasted with the light from my iPhone do I see the lume. Following a 10sec exposure the lume rapidly deactivates and is virtually invisible after 45 mins in a pitch black room. The lume application is also cream colored and smooth and not white/granular as I've seen in other owner photos and on the Ginault website.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

erik2133 said:


> Good to know. Yes, strong, my concern was the color. Mine is somewhere between bgw9 and c3. Wondering it its fine within the bgw9 tolerances. Though i dont think i will ship it back for a re-lume because this is not a big deal for me.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


It sounds great! I wouldn't split hairs. Post a pic sometime, or have you? . Enjoy your Ginault.


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> It sounds great! I wouldn't split hairs. Post a pic sometime, or have you? . Enjoy your Ginault.


I have posted but here it is one more time to save your time going up the thread. Two pics actually for a comparison. I dont mind the color as long as it is stong.









Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Here are my lume shots. After 10sec activation using iphone and again after 45mins in a dark room. The camera makes these brighter than they appear in real life.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

erik2133 said:


> I have posted but here it is one more time to save your time going up the thread. Two pics actually for a comparison. I dont mind the color as long as it is stong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whats the elapsed time between the two shots?


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## erik2133 (Jan 4, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Whats the elapsed time between the two shots?


A minute, and keeps just glowing like that.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I do like the look of the smurf lume. My sand gold lume is very bright and lasts long.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi!


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Hi here as well...








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## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

Royal Mail deliveries have finally restarted following The Beast From The East, and my OR was finally delivered. Was sent on 28th so should have had it last Thursday.

Happy to report there were no customs or import charges! Happy days.










Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

Was notified today that my OR failed QC because of a mark on the dial and it would be another 2 weeks so they could build me a new one. While disappointed at the wait, I am at least very glad they don't ship me a watch with a known defect and see if I accept it. I would rather wait for it to be perfect as possible.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

schmoud said:


> Was notified today that my OR failed QC because of a mark on the dial and it would be another 2 weeks so they could build me a new one. While disappointed at the wait, I am at least very glad they don't ship me a watch with a known defect and see if I accept it. I would rather wait for it to be perfect as possible.


I also got my hour hand replaced and could not be better with the new one.

Please let us know when you receive it back.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I have sent 4 emails asking for any sort of update on my returned watch (died after 10 days) and have heard not a peep in weeks. Like a big black hole. I am losing my affection for Ginault. But what can I do?

T



Shizmosis said:


> I can confirm that my communication in regard to any complains has been handled pretty fast by John. Sometimes it needs some time to get a reply, but nevertheless, John is always very friendly and helpful.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> I have sent 4 emails asking for any sort of update on my returned watch (died after 10 days) and have heard not a peep in weeks. Like a big black hole. I am losing my affection for Ginault. But what can I do?
> 
> T


Not much you can do except sit tight.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

TonyDennison said:


> I have sent 4 emails asking for any sort of update on my returned watch (died after 10 days) and have heard not a peep in weeks. Like a big black hole. I am losing my affection for Ginault. But what can I do?
> 
> T


Hang in there man. You got any other watches to wear while you pass the time? When you say weeks, it's been 2 weeks if I'm not mistaken. There's a lot of moving parts in the watch biz, and I don't know how many hands, or hours in a day the Ginault company has but I'm sure you will be taken care of in due course. More so than many companies. I wouldn't beat up on them too much.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Two weeks is correct.

I don't think I am quite beating up on them. Ive said nothing derogatory or insulting. Im just not feeling confident with the whole thing. I can see this watch turning in to a year long nightmare with me paying shipping back to Ginault 5-10 times and then moving on with nothing.

I think the right thing for Ginault to do would be to 1-pay for shipping back to them for a watch that worked 10 days (them making me pay shipping on their faulty product is beyond the pale), 2- immediately send out a new watch to me replacing the faulty one.

If that replacement watch poops out in 10 days, redo numbers 1 and 2. Since they won't do any of that, maybe at least respond to an email. They responded quickly before my payment was made....just saying. I'm not beating them up, just reporting the facts.

T



Riddim Driven said:


> Hang in there man. You got any other watches to wear while you pass the time? When you say weeks, it's been 2 weeks if I'm not mistaken. There's a lot of moving parts in the watch biz, and I don't know how many hands, or hours in a day the Ginault company has but I'm sure you will be taken care of in due course. More so than many companies. I wouldn't beat up on them too much.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> Two weeks is correct.
> 
> I don't think I am quite beating up on them. Ive said nothing derogatory or insulting. Im just not feeling confident with the whole thing. I can see this watch turning in to a year long nightmare with me paying shipping back to Ginault 5-10 times and then moving on with nothing.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. I would react exactly as you have.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

They just responded to me, maybe they are reading WUS. They said initially the watch worked. They will be done with observation and whatever else is needed in 4-6 more weeks.

T



rosborn said:


> I agree 100%. I would react exactly as you have.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> They just responded to me, maybe they are reading WUS. They said initially the watch worked. They will be done with observation and whatever else is needed in 4-6 more weeks.
> 
> T


Well...that's "something".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> They just responded to me, maybe they are reading WUS. They said initially the watch worked. They will be done with observation and whatever else is needed in 4-6 more weeks.
> 
> T


A good sign that you have received your requested feedback. I am sure that they will solve your issues in a timely manner.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

TonyDennison said:


> They just responded to me, maybe they are reading WUS. They said initially the watch worked. They will be done with observation and whatever else is needed in 4-6 more weeks.
> 
> T


They really should ship you a new OR. They can then "observe" this one all they want.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

They refunded my shipping to them last night without me asking so there's that at least. Now I just gotta wait and see what they say about it running so fast. They did say my crown was real hard to pull out so I know I was right about that. Let's see if they can time it better.


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## schmoud (Jan 12, 2016)

I agree that having to pay return shipping for a watch that died that quickly not would not make me very happy either, especially in the first 90 days. I will be eager to hear what they say is the issue.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> They really should ship you a new OR. They can then "observe" this one all they want.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is the normal business with other brands when this happen? Do they replace the watch or just "observe" it? I am very curious to know.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> They just responded to me, maybe they are reading WUS. They said initially the watch worked. They will be done with observation and whatever else is needed in 4-6 more weeks.
> 
> T


Wow, that seems like a looong wait...

I hope that they find the issue and you do not have to bother any more about it.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Wow, that seems like a looong wait...
> 
> I hope that they find the issue and you do not have to bother any more about it.


Just got thr tracking mine should arrive today

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

double poooost


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> What is the normal business with other brands when this happen? Do they replace the watch or just "observe" it? I am very curious to know.


That was my thought when I sent mine in, keep it and send me a good one. Observe this one all you want. Their answer was we don't sell seconds so we will fix yours and send it back. In 6-8 weeks. Approximately. Never had to send one besides a seiko monster I got on amazon. It died after a couple of days, sent it back and got a refund. Moved on.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

TonyDennison said:


> Two weeks is correct.
> 
> I don't think I am quite beating up on them. Ive said nothing derogatory or insulting. Im just not feeling confident with the whole thing. I can see this watch turning in to a year long nightmare with me paying shipping back to Ginault 5-10 times and then moving on with nothing.
> 
> ...


You should ask for a refund and move on. You're already setting the scene for disappointment. You're assuming a 2nd watch would break. So why bother. Maybe the watch isn't in stock at the moment. If you re-read what you've said, it is derogatory with zero faith in an outcome that suits you. You weren't that thrilled from the start.

Sorry man, I'll stay out of it now. I think this company has very good intentions and they have made a very nice watch and they are trying very hard to do right by the customers from what I see. Maybe they can't initiate the actions you desire on your schedule. This is a micro-brand working hard for you. Try getting reply and watch replacements from the big brands.

Like they say: You attract more flies with honey than vinegar.

I leave you all to determine how to run a small watch company amongst yourselves. I'd love to see you try it.

This Ginault thread is still so full of angst. So weird...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Riddim Driven said:


> You should ask for a refund and move on. You're already setting the scene for disappointment. You're assuming a 2nd watch would break. So why bother. Maybe the watch isn't in stock at the moment. If you re-read what you've said, it is derogatory with zero faith in an outcome that suits you. You weren't that thrilled from the start.
> 
> Sorry man, I'll stay out of it now. I think this company has very good intentions and they have made a very nice watch and they are trying very hard to do right by the customers from what I see. Maybe they can't initiate the actions you desire on your schedule. This is a micro-brand working hard for you. Try getting reply and watch replacements from the big brands.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree with you. Ginault is tainted for him. He will never enjoy the watch, will always wonder when it's going to die, and should just request a refund now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> What is the normal business with other brands when this happen? Do they replace the watch or just "observe" it? I am very curious to know.


Don't know. If I got any consumer item that stopped working after 10 days it's going back for a replacement or refund. Car is probably one of the only thing that would've a problem.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

I agree with the counselor, we spent a goodly amount of money on a watch and expect it to work, as advertised. His died, it should work. Mined was "timed" at 0.0 SPD, runs at +30 instead. Not as advertised, not even close. I really like the watch, I truly do. I just expect it to do what it's advertised to do which is keep excellent time and look good. At least they got the good looking part right!!


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I am curious how did the watch just die?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

things like those can happen in case of watches. Even though they should not. But Ginault is taking care of it as fast as a company in that size can handle a big amount of customer requests.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

well,

for the first week the watch ran at -3 sec/day. Around day 8 or 9 the watch ran at -30 sec/day. Day 10, it stopped. I wound it 5 turn and stopped in 45 mins. Wound it 15 turns and ran for a while, I don't remember. I then wound it 20 turns and the watch ran for 1/2 hour, then nothing.

When I first contacted Ginault they said I over-wound the watch....I explained the problems started before I wound it at all other than the 5 turns I gave it when it first arrived.

Beyond that I don't know.

T



MarkGT900 said:


> I am curious how did the watch just die?


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> well,
> 
> for the first week the watch ran at -3 sec/day. Around day 8 or 9 the watch ran at -30 sec/day. Day 10, it stopped. I wound it 5 turn and stopped in 45 mins. Wound it 15 turns and ran for a while, I don't remember. I then wound it 20 turns and the watch ran for 1/2 hour, then nothing.
> 
> ...


I didn't think you could over wind the movement. Isn't that why there's a clutch in the movement?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I can see that. I guess the problem for me is, it has Never happened to me except for when I bought a chinese replica for $50. I guess it is true it can happen but it is not mandatory. And if Ginault is having so many people returning their watches because they are not working that they can't keep up with repairs, maybe they should slow down and stop selling until they figure it out.

If the watch was $100- $200 then maybe I would be even more understanding, but I have had a <$200 seiko for 20 years and it has never missed a beat and keeps perfect time. I also have some Timex that are over 50 years old and still running great. None of them have ever been cracked.

People keep suggesting we should expect a new watch not to work because it is mechanical. This is silly. Ive had and have several mechanicals that have never had any problems even after never being serviced service.

I am not trying to be grumpy, just saying what I think are very reasonable points. My point is emails and texts can be misconstrued....

me



Shizmosis said:


> things like those can happen in case of watches. Even though they should not. But Ginault is taking care of it as fast as a company in that size can handle a big amount of customer requests.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

In their response to me they said they shook the watch and it started running. This gives me a sour feeling in my gut..imagining...It doesn't work, I send it in, they say it works great and send it back, and then I get it back and it doesn't work so I send it back, and they say it works and return it, and it doesn't so I send it back.....this is how imagine this may go.

Im thinking the whole thing has been a mistake. When I get it back I make just sell it and get another Omega and be done.

of course it may turn out....but....crap



rosborn said:


> I didn't think you could over wind the movement. Isn't that why there's a clutch in the movement?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> In their response to me they said they shook the watch and it started running. This gives me a sour feeling in my gut..imagining...It doesn't work, I send it in, they say it works great and send it back, and then I get it back and it doesn't work so I send it back, and they say it works and return it, and it doesn't so I send it back.....this is how imagine this may go.
> 
> Im thinking the whole thing has been a mistake. When I get it back I make just sell it and get another Omega and be done.
> 
> of course it may turn out....but....crap


Unfortunately, any potential buyer will be able to see how the watch has "performed" from your posts in this thread an may be gun shy.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Oh I get it, I'm the bad guy because I spent over $700 for something that worked 10 days. You are right I should just shut up and accept it. You must have grown up in Soviet Russia.



Riddim Driven said:


> You should ask for a refund and move on. You're already setting the scene for disappointment. You're assuming a 2nd watch would break. So why bother. Maybe the watch isn't in stock at the moment. If you re-read what you've said, it is derogatory with zero faith in an outcome that suits you. You weren't that thrilled from the start.
> 
> Sorry man, I'll stay out of it now. I think this company has very good intentions and they have made a very nice watch and they are trying very hard to do right by the customers from what I see. Maybe they can't initiate the actions you desire on your schedule. This is a micro-brand working hard for you. Try getting reply and watch replacements from the big brands.
> 
> ...


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

no problem, I'll sell it to Comrad *Riddim Driven. 

*


rosborn said:


> Unfortunately, any potential buyer will be able to see how the watch has "performed" from your posts in this thread an may be gun shy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> no problem, I'll sell it to Comrad *Riddim Driven.
> 
> *


For what it's worth, I fon't think you're being unrealistic at all. $700 may not be a lot on money for some people but it is to me and it is simply unacceptable to pay that much money for something that doesn't work. Heck, any amount of money is too much to pay for a dud. I'm on your side in this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks brother.....

Wanta buy an almost brand new Ginault?????

Hmm?

Just playing with you, thanks for your support.

T



rosborn said:


> For what it's worth, I fon't think you're being unrealistic at all. $700 may not be a lot on money for some people but it is to me and it is simply unacceptable to pay that much money for something that doesn't work. Heck, any amount of money is too much to pay for a dud. I'm on your side in this one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Again I agree with you counselor. I would think that based on their ad copy, these would be the finest timepieces prouduced outside of Switzerland but if they are that behind in repairs well I did not know. I mean how many have they sold and how many have gone back?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> Oh I get it, I'm the bad guy because I spent over $700 for something that worked 10 days. You are right I should just shut up and accept it. You must have grown up in Soviet Russia.


Sorry to say so but I have not grown up in Soviet Russia and have also not been to Russia yet. But it is definitely on my wish destination for a holiday trip ;-)

I totally agree with you in saying that it is a pity if you spent money (any amount!) on something that not worked as it should. Totally disappointing at the customer point of view. I just wanted to mention that any company has it right to subsequent improvement (as Ginault is currently handling your claim). I dare to say that other watch vendors (even in the luxury industry) are not able to solve a claim within 3 weeks (including shipping time, E-Mail correspondence, etc.) even though they have the personal capacity. Not questioning that those claims should not happen in the first place - but nevertheless, they happen.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

TonyDennison said:


> no problem, I'll sell it to Comrad *Riddim Driven.
> 
> *


That's very thoughtful of you but I'm all set. Sorry the Ginault was a bad experience for you. Micro brands are hit or miss period. Like I said, pursue a refund. I agree, you should stick to Omega and other Swiss big name brands.... comrade


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

TonyDennison said:


> In their response to me they said they shook the watch and it started running. This gives me a sour feeling in my gut..imagining...It doesn't work, I send it in, they say it works great and send it back, and then I get it back and it doesn't work so I send it back, and they say it works and return it, and it doesn't so I send it back.....this is how imagine this may go.
> 
> Im thinking the whole thing has been a mistake. When I get it back I make just sell it and get another Omega and be done.
> 
> of course it may turn out....but....crap


Sounds like you are playacting a possible scenario based on a somewhat pessimistic expectation.

These are a mechanical devises which sometimes don't work as intended, sometimes these issues can be easily fixed and then work faultlessly for years and otherwise can also be problematic forever, we've all had a car, toaster, line trimmer or whatever that has had a similar issue so nothing new here.

Of course we all hope that our particular item will not be that one but sometimes it is unavoidable but there's no use spending time worrying and imagining the doom and gloom.

As said on previous posts maybe you should just cut your losses, wait for the watch to be returned and either keep it or not but no use stressing over it, it's a watch.


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> well,
> 
> for the first week the watch ran at -3 sec/day. Around day 8 or 9 the watch ran at -30 sec/day. Day 10, it stopped. I wound it 5 turn and stopped in 45 mins. Wound it 15 turns and ran for a while, I don't remember. I then wound it 20 turns and the watch ran for 1/2 hour, then nothing.
> 
> ...


Hey Tony! Sorry for the problem you are having with your OR. It's very disappointing to order a watch, anticipate its arrival and then to be bummed out like that. I think as other members have said, Ginault is a small operation and minimally staffed. I received my OR on March and it was ordered on February 16th. The sheet that gave the final watch regulation was dated Nov. 3, 2017. So as you can see, there is a bit of a lag, time wise, and is compounded if the staffing is indeed small. From your description of how the watch died, it sounds like it's not getting power from the mainspring ( binding, broken, etc). If they diagnose and fix the problem it will then have to be re- regulated (another 6 weeks ?). 
Certainly not acceptable time wise, but I am hoping Ginault will do the right thing here. 
You should have some recourse if you paid with a credit card in that you could dispute the charge and have it reversed. You should get clear in your own mind what you are willing to accept at this stage an go from here. My personal feeling is that Ginault will want to make this right with you as they are new company and will probably want to look good in the eyes of the public, fans of the OR and the members in this forum. Anyway, try to stay positive and we all look forward to your outcome.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

True...my lemon car was a volvo S70....nightmare.

Im not dwelling, just sharing my random thoughts and experiences on watches on a watch site... I am not pacing in my basement rubbing my hands together.

I hear what youre saying and I agree, but I still want to express myself. I'm ok.

Thanks



59er said:


> Sounds like you are playacting a possible scenario based on a somewhat pessimistic expectation.
> 
> These are a mechanical devises which sometimes don't work as intended, sometimes these issues can be easily fixed and then work faultlessly for years and otherwise can also be problematic forever, we've all had a car, toaster, line trimmer or whatever that has had a similar issue so nothing new here.
> 
> ...


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks



Eye Doc said:


> Hey Tony! Sorry for the problem you are having with your OR. It's very disappointing to order a watch, anticipate its arrival and then to be bummed out like that. I think as other members have said, Ginault is a small operation and minimally staffed. I received my OR on March and it was ordered on February 16th. The sheet that gave the final watch regulation was dated Nov. 3, 2017. So as you can see, there is a bit of a lag, time wise, and is compounded if the staffing is indeed small. From your description of how the watch died, it sounds like it's not getting power from the mainspring ( binding, broken, etc). If they diagnose and fix the problem it will then have to be re- regulated (another 6 weeks ?).
> Certainly not acceptable time wise, but I am hoping Ginault will do the right thing here.
> You should have some recourse if you paid with a credit card in that you could dispute the charge and have it reversed. You should get clear in your own mind what you are willing to accept at this stage an go from here. My personal feeling is that Ginault will want to make this right with you as they are new company and will probably want to look good in the eyes of the public, fans of the OR and the members in this forum. Anyway, try to stay positive and we all look forward to your outcome.


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I dont know how many, but someone intimated that they are a small crew and dealing with a lot of repairs.....thats what caused me to say that.



DevilDogDoc said:


> Again I agree with you counselor. I would think that based on their ad copy, these would be the finest timepieces prouduced outside of Switzerland but if they are that behind in repairs well I did not know. I mean how many have they sold and how many have gone back?


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

movement mehmeh happens to all brands Swiss or micro. Obviously it sucks that it happened to 10 day old watch and does not give of good first impression. But at the same time it is normal for a repair to take upwards of a month or two in my past experience large or small brands. Just hang in there


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Does anyone know how to post a pic? Mine arrived yesterday and I can't seem to upload the pic


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I think I figured out how. Just my initial impression, all the metal parts that you can touch with hands is seriously machined to very very tight tolerance. And just look at how nice and sharp the teeth are on the bezel. It does really speak quality (in terms of the CNC and machining)


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

I think that you are pursuing the correct avenue, and it just requires a little patience. No one sets out to buy anything that performs less than perfect. But, it is a reality of anything with a lot of moving parts, that failures sometimes occur. You just hope it is addressed quickly and professionally.

I have read a lot of good reviews, and you can bet, ANYTHING less than stellar performance, is going to be highlighted and used as a club, to beat Ginault's reputation even further into the ground (the anti-Rover battalion are always on the look out for some more ammunition!!!!  But any and all problems, have been solved by Ginault, if a little patience is exercised.

I truly hope you get your watch back and it runs beautifully. Enjoy whatever watch you ultimately choose, in health. Cheers!!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I hope so as well,
Thanks



JohnBPittsburgh said:


> I truly hope you get your watch back and it runs beautifully. Enjoy whatever watch you ultimately choose, in health. Cheers!!


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

It is too pretty to not give it time and hope for the best...Kind of like a Jaguar XJ



MarkGT900 said:


> movement mehmeh happens to all brands Swiss or micro. Obviously it sucks that it happened to 10 day old watch and does not give of good first impression. But at the same time it is normal for a repair to take upwards of a month or two in my past experience large or small brands. Just hang in there


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

TonyDennison said:


> It is too pretty to not give it time and hope for the best...Kind of like a Jaguar XJ


Hahaha i agree the more i look at the Rover the more i understand why the hype this thing is really precision made.

Mine has been running at +8 sec for the past 24 hrs. Not bad

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

Does anyone know if the warranty on the Ginault is transferable? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Tony I hope yours gets back to you soon in fully functioning condition.

I've been wearing mine pretty much non-stop since getting it, only switching to other watches for short spells and tried another yesterday but could barely get through 24hrs without returning to the OR so here it is again this morning.


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Tbjay1215 said:


> Does anyone know if the warranty on the Ginault is transferable?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey Tbjay! Ginault gives a one year warranty and it is non-transferable.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Tony I hope yours gets back to you soon in fully functioning condition.
> 
> I've been wearing mine pretty much non-stop since getting it, only switching to other watches for short spells and tried another yesterday but could barely get through 24hrs without returning to the OR so here it is again this morning.


I'm the same way with my OR, it goes everywhere snd does everything with me. I have one other analog watch - a Hamilton Khaki Field hand wind that I got out in memory of my maternal grandfather and his service in World War Two. It's a cool throwback watch but it isn't getting any wrist time. I also have a Timex Ironman that I wear for field work, except that I don't anymore...my Ocean Rover has replaced it.

So, it is my hope that Tony gets his Ocean Rover back, that it works wonderfully, and that he falls in love with it as much as I have mine. If not, I certainly understand him moving on.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

rosborn said:


> I'm the same way with my OR, it goes everywhere snd does everything with me. I have one other analog watch - a Hamilton Khaki Field hand wind that I got out in memory of my maternal grandfather and his service in World War Two. It's a cool throwback watch but it isn't getting any wrist time. I also have a Timex Ironman that I wear for field work, except that I don't anymore...my Ocean Rover has replaced it.
> 
> So, it is my hope that Tony gets his Ocean Rover back, that it works wonderfully, and that he falls in love with it as much as I have mine. If not, I certainly understand him moving on.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This watch hasnt been off my wrist since its arrival yesterday. Its really comfortable i sometimes dont even realize it is on wrist.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> In their response to me they said they shook the watch and it started running. This gives me a sour feeling in my gut..imagining...It doesn't work, I send it in, they say it works great and send it back, and then I get it back and it doesn't work so I send it back, and they say it works and return it, and it doesn't so I send it back.....this is how imagine this may go.
> 
> Im thinking the whole thing has been a mistake. When I get it back I make just sell it and get another Omega and be done.
> 
> of course it may turn out....but....crap


Note to self: don't but Tony's OR


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

59er said:


> Tony I hope yours gets back to you soon in fully functioning condition.
> 
> I've been wearing mine pretty much non-stop since getting it, only switching to other watches for short spells and tried another yesterday but could barely get through 24hrs without returning to the OR so here it is again this morning.


same here, it is just an really amazing time piece.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

skunkworks said:


> Note to self: don't but Tony's OR


I would buy it off TonyDennison on condition he does not unbox it on return from Ginault.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

Just received my smurf no-date today.

First impressions, extremely well built cosmetically, even though I had read a lot and watched many reviews, I was still blown away.

Beeeeauuuutiful watch that seems to be of a quality way way way above what one could expect, price considering.

I also own a Tudor Pelagos and a moon watch and this one easily matches the quality.

Regarding the quality of the "engine", time will tell.

So far, absolutely chuffed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Nice! Glad you like it so far in your short time of ownership!


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Has anyone tried this OR w/one of the moulded Rolex rubber straps like Everest or Rubber B?


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

This is by far the highest quality Sub homage I own. I didn't realize how carefully crafted the Ocean Rover really is until I received it. Hats off to the Ginault team.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

It should fit just fine.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

MarkGT900 said:


> This is by far the highest quality Sub homage I own. I didn't realize how carefully crafted the Ocean Rover really is until I received it. Hats off to the Ginault team.


That's a really good pic.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

LARufCTR said:


> Has anyone tried this OR w/one of the moulded Rolex rubber straps like Everest or Rubber B?


Watch and clasp work great with Everest strap for 5-digit Submariner:


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

WastedYears said:


> Watch and clasp work great with Everest strap for 5-digit Submariner:
> 
> View attachment 12958433
> 
> ...


Thats my thougbt as well, Ocean Rover's midcases are very accurate representation of the 5 digit sub. I have read somewhere that many 5 digit sub owners even source the OR bracelet (solid mid links + glidelock) to upgrade the overall feel of their 16610s

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

MarkGT900 said:


> Thats my thougbt as well, Ocean Rover's midcases are very accurate representation of the 5 digit sub. I have read somewhere that many 5 digit sub owners even source the OR bracelet (solid mid links + glidelock) to upgrade the overall feel of their 16610s
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Oooh. Where'd you read that? That's something I'd be interested in reading.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

MarkGT900 said:


> This is by far the highest quality Sub homage I own. I didn't realize how carefully crafted the Ocean Rover really is until I received it. Hats off to the Ginault team.


Nice you like your Ocean Rover. The craftsmanship is really outstanding. Enjoy wearing it!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

There will be a premium since I am so important. 



kelt said:


> I would buy it off TonyDennison on condition he does not unbox it on return from Ginault.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I was the same way. I know what you mean.

T



59er said:


> Tony I hope yours gets back to you soon in fully functioning condition.
> 
> I've been wearing mine pretty much non-stop since getting it, only switching to other watches for short spells and tried another yesterday but could barely get through 24hrs without returning to the OR so here it is again this morning.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

on the wrist have not been off


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

WastedYears said:


> Watch and clasp work great with Everest strap for 5-digit Submariner:
> 
> View attachment 12958433
> 
> ...


I wish I could find a slightly more affordable option. I have thought about giving the Amazon or eBay specials a try.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Question, does anyone experience this, sometimes the lume on the smurf is more blue and at times it's more like a tiffany green.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

MarkGT900 said:


> Thats my thougbt as well, Ocean Rover's midcases are very accurate representation of the 5 digit sub. I have read somewhere that many 5 digit sub owners even source the OR bracelet (solid mid links + glidelock) to upgrade the overall feel of their 16610s
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk


Is the bracelet something Ginault is now offering on its own?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jorgeledesma (Feb 22, 2016)

Ok this maybe sacrilegious but I want some Merc hands for my Ocean Rover Blue Smurf no date. Does anyone know where I can source these? Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JohnLT13 (Mar 1, 2015)

jorgeledesma said:


> Ok this maybe sacrilegious but I want some Merc hands for my Ocean Rover Blue Smurf no date. Does anyone know where I can source these? Thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel the same. Im thinking Merc hands for a ETA 2824 should fit. But this is not confirmed information. Plenty of hands available on ebay.


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## Omegabob (Dec 20, 2015)

rosborn said:


> Unfortunately, any potential buyer will be able to see how the watch has "performed" from your posts in this thread an may be gun shy.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You got that right I'm staying away. :-s


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## jorgeledesma (Feb 22, 2016)

JohnLT13 said:


> I feel the same. Im thinking Merc hands for a ETA 2824 should fit. But this is not confirmed information. Plenty of hands available on ebay.


Tried a set from Singapore on eBay and the seconds hands didn't fit and the lume was green too so discarded that. It's very difficult (at least) for me to find a set of merc hands with the BGW9 lume. If someone finds a set do share please.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jorgeledesma (Feb 22, 2016)

Also the red seconds hands is driving me nuts. If it was like the hour and minutes I suspect it wouldn’t drive me cookoo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

I would like to get some imput from everyone who owns an Ocean Rover. Received mine 1 week ago and it has been averaging 10 seconds fast per day. The final regulation reported 1 second fast per day (bit of a discrepancy). I would like you all to report how your watch is running verses what your final regulation indicated. I think we would all like to see the data. Thanks!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Eye Doc said:


> I would like to get some imput from everyone who owns an Ocean Rover. Received mine 1 week ago and it has been averaging 10 seconds fast per day. The final regulation reported 1 second fast per day (bit of a discrepancy). I would like you all to report how your watch is running verses what your final regulation indicated. I think we would all like to see the data. Thanks!


Mine said 0.0 on the sheet and ran +30 SPD on the wrist. One of the reasons I sent it in. My unregulated Squale was running +13 SPD, I opened it up yesterday and adjusted it. Now it's at +7. Gonna give another tweak tomorrow. For all the precision chronometer hyperbole it leaves a lot on the table. Hope it's better in a couple months when I get it back.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

MarkGT900 said:


> Question, does anyone experience this, sometimes the lume on the smurf is more blue and at times it's more like a tiffany green.


Yes. From my experience, it depends on the light that you charge the lume with.


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## JohnLT13 (Mar 1, 2015)

jorgeledesma said:


> Tried a set from Singapore on eBay and the seconds hands didn't fit and the lume was green too so discarded that. It's very difficult (at least) for me to find a set of merc hands with the BGW9 lume. If someone finds a set do share please.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I will be looking and will keep you in the loop if anything comes up.



jorgeledesma said:


> Also the red seconds hands is driving me nuts. If it was like the hour and minutes I suspect it wouldn't drive me cookoo.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I cant deal with it either. its distracting as hell IMO.


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

When I have my OR on wrist, it is +- 2SPD always. When it's off, it can drift +-10SPD (and in a cold area even more so for some reason). I can live with it and if ever there is a problem after the warranty is up, I will throw an ETA in. I know there are some amazing watches out there, and that the OR catches a ton of online hate. In real life, I have received nothing but compliments and it has held up through anything I can throw at it so far. What more can you ask out of a sub $1000 watch? It looks awesome, it wears beautifully, and it makes me smile when I look at it. I love the red seconds hand....but I have the gold/blue version (which needs a cool nickname!!!)


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Maxi Merc hands - blue lume that is very close to the BGW9 dial when fully charged. I intend on getting the hands BGW9 lumed soon.

My Movement runs spot on when worn. Variable when stored and in the cold. But that's ok and what the 'regulation' is about. Running fast face up overnight? Store face down to adjust etc.

If the movement had gone wrong soon after receiving the watch I would have requested a replacement. I'm sorry for your pain TonyD.

If my movement goes wrong in the future I will replace with ETA. I also have drilled lugs and soon to fit a 2xAR crystal.

When I don't wear it, I miss it!


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

It's just a fun watch


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Thanks DDD! Please keep the info coming !
would really like to see how everyone's 
Ocean Rovers are doing as far as accuracy goes.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

G4_Chrono said:


> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12961499&stc=1&d=1520689199"]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know we don't live anywhere near each other but who did you have drill the lugs and how much did that cost? I think it's a cool mod that adds to the tool feel of the watch.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I guess how blue it looks to depends on the ambient lighting environment.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

biscuit141 said:


> I know we don't live anywhere near each other but who did you have drill the lugs and how much did that cost? I think it's a cool mod that adds to the tool feel of the watch.


And the hands ... where are they from? Do they match the sand lume?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Ended up ordering a Ginault last week. Was just wondering about how long their backlog is at the moment from recent buyers. Also do they email you shipping notification when it leaves California? Not really concerned about how long as I do have other watches to wear, just curious ya know.


Thanks,
Greg


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> View attachment 12961499
> 
> 
> Maxi Merc hands - blue lume that is very close to the BGW9 dial when fully charged. I intend on getting the hands BGW9 lumed soon.
> ...


Real nice modding you did. Any pictures available with the bracelet?


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

GMArthur said:


> Ended up ordering a Ginault last week. Was just wondering about how long their backlog is at the moment from recent buyers. Also do they email you shipping notification when it leaves California? Not really concerned about how long as I do have other watches to wear, just curious ya know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg


Hey Greg! Ordered mine February 16th and got it March 2nd, so it took exactly 2 weeks. 
It was sent from Oakland, CA to Long Island, NY by priority mail. Ginault did give a tracking number, but only after I emailed them. The tracking number was useless in that you can't get any updates until the day your item is out for delivery. Ginault only insured the package for $100 which I thought was a little odd! The other odd thing is that it took almost 2 weeks to send the watch out but, the regulation sheet gave the date of final regulation on Nov. 3, 2017. So, this must mean that the back log is all internal. 
It should arrive soon. At this point, it's must be like Christmas Eve for you!
Hope this helps. 
Enjoy the wait! I did.

Doc


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Eye Doc said:


> Thanks DDD! Please keep the info coming !
> would really like to see how everyone's
> Ocean Rovers are doing as far as accuracy goes.












Mine.


----------



## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

Still early days for me, but....










Sent from my VKY-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Steven Cook said:


> Still early days for me, but....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow!

Mine is constantly between +6 and +7.


----------



## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Eye Doc said:


> GMArthur said:
> 
> 
> > Ended up ordering a Ginault last week. Was just wondering about how long their backlog is at the moment from recent buyers. Also do they email you shipping notification when it leaves California? Not really concerned about how long as I do have other watches to wear, just curious ya know.
> ...


 Thanks Doc. Looks like Friday or Saturday is a possibility then. Appreciate the info. They should really update their website as it states three to five business days.

Have a good one,
Greg


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

GMArthur said:


> Ended up ordering a Ginault last week. Was just wondering about how long their backlog is at the moment from recent buyers. Also do they email you shipping notification when it leaves California? Not really concerned about how long as I do have other watches to wear, just curious ya know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Greg


Mine took about 2.5 weeks to arrive.


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I finally have time today to really take some photos of the Ocean Rover received earlier this week.

I really do appreciate the fine metal works. Beautiful hairline finish and no gap in between the SEL and lugs demonstrate true mastery in cutting, fit&finish and precision/tolerance.








O-ring + sturdy/thick crown, a must for a robust diver design. 








Great rendition of the classic Sub's mid-case and profile














What truly blows me away is the high gloss enamel dial and the applied indices, they really stand out nicely. The quality of these forged indices are phenomenal something that is rarely seen on a sub 1K watch.


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Steven Cook said:


> Still early days for me, but....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


IMPRESSIVE!!!


----------



## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Such a beauty...


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

MarkGT900 said:


> I finally have time today to really take some photos of the Ocean Rover received earlier this week.
> 
> I really do appreciate the fine metal works. Beautiful hairline finish and no gap in between the SEL and lugs demonstrate true mastery in cutting, fit&finish and precision/tolerance.
> View attachment 12965935
> ...


Fantastic photos! You should contact Ginault and see if there is an opportunity to do some photo work for then. Really nicely done!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Eye Doc said:


> Hey Greg! Ordered mine February 16th and got it March 2nd, so it took exactly 2 weeks.
> It was sent from Oakland, CA to Long Island, NY by priority mail. Ginault did give a tracking number, but only after I emailed them. The tracking number was useless in that you can't get any updates until the day your item is out for delivery. Ginault only insured the package for $100 which I thought was a little odd! The other odd thing is that it took almost 2 weeks to send the watch out but, the regulation sheet gave the date of final regulation on Nov. 3, 2017. So, this must mean that the back log is all internal.
> It should arrive soon. At this point, it's must be like Christmas Eve for you!
> Hope this helps.
> ...


Regarding regulation....COSC regulates movement prior to them being put in the watch cases. For example, you will often find that the movement in a Sinn UX has been regulated and COSC certified some years prior to being placed in the watch case.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Jeffie007 (Jul 28, 2015)

*Ginault watch company/ brand. Who are they?*

I saw some reviews on the their watches and they are assembled in the US. But on their site, I could not find out any info. On who owns the company or where they are even located. This makes me hesitate on purchasing one, even with the positive reviews. Can anyone point me to the information? Thanks!


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: Ginault watch company/ brand. Who are they?*

The reviews are a condition of discount they give ymmv


----------



## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

*Re: Ginault watch company/ brand. Who are they?*


----------



## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

*Re: Ginault watch company/ brand. Who are they?*

With all due respect you may want to search the forum. There is already quite a few threads about them.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

*Re: Ginault watch company/ brand. Who are they?*



MikeCfromLI said:


> The reviews are a condition of discount they give ymmv


And...not all of the reviews have been positive...just like any review of any watch...despite the discount that was provided.

I own an Ocean Rover. I've had this pre-owned piece for a little over four months. I am not a kool-aid drinker and have owned many watches ranging from $100 to $3500. For the price I paid I can safely say this is the nicest watch I have ever owned. Is it the nicest watch on the market? Nope. Then again, I am not willing to pay the price required to have the nicest watch on the market. This watch looks great, fits well, and is within -4 spd. I've had more expensive watches that were less accurate.

Here's the CRAZY thing...absolutely insane...when I bought a TAG Heuer or an Oris I never questioned where the movement or watch were made. For all I know, both movement and watch were made in China with some Swiss parts (enough to make it "Swiss Made" and assembled in Switzerland...enough to make it Swiss Made. I have never tracked each and every process pf their manufacturing and assembly to know that they are, in fact, really Swiss Made. What I do knowis this...Switzerland mandates that a certain amount of every watch has to be manufactured or assembled in Switzerland. I have to take that on some sort of faith...I have to trust that what I am paying for is what "they" say I am paying for. It's no different with Ginault.

Quite frankly, I am not going to wring my hands, sweat over, or lose sleep for something I paid less than $700 for. If I start doing that then every watch I am willing to pay for will cause me constirnation and, if that's the case, I am better off not owning a watch at all.

No one questions Swiss watch makers or expects Seiko to provide information on every component of every watch they make...and Seiko sells a lot of watches for what Ginault is selling the Ocean Rover for.

This level of angst is silly, especially when most of it is coming from folk who don't even own an Ocean Rover. At this point, if "you're" b*tching about Ginault but don't own "you're" just a fart in the breeze and I couldn't care less about "your" opinion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

New model out now on the US website and a review on youtube from Armand the watch guy.

https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-185066/


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> New model out now on the US website and a review on youtube from Armand the watch guy.
> 
> https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-185066/


I like that red bezel!!! I wonder if they would sell it separate? If John ever answers me I'll see if he would throw one on mine before it comes back to me.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> I like that red bezel!!! I wonder if they would sell it separate? If John ever answers me I'll see if he would throw one on mine before it comes back to me.


I've already sent in a question to see of I can get the blue/gold bezel from the 181070 on the new model!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

bjn74 said:


> New model out now on the US website and a review on youtube from Armand the watch guy.
> 
> https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-185066/


That was a very nice review. Thank you for sharing it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

I actually think I may prefer this version over the applied indices version. :think:


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Ginault has a 24% discount code (happy24) available for the next 7 days. Makes the new model $530. I'm very tempted!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

bjn74 said:


> Ginault has a 24% discount code (happy24) available for the next 7 days. Makes the new model $530. I'm very tempted!


Is there a no date option?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Is there a no date option?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


All versions of the new 185066 have no date (based on pictures on their website)


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

A Ginault with a "gilt track two liner dial" great news, what is the type of lume is used on the 185066? I could not find any night shots of this one.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

kelt said:


> A Ginault with a "gilt track two liner dial" great news, what is the type of lume is used on the 185066? I could not find any night shots of this one.


I'm going to guess C1 based on the name...


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## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

kelt said:


> A Ginault with a "gilt track two liner dial" great news, what is the type of lume is used on the 185066? I could not find any night shots of this one.


Watch the Armand the Watch Guy video - he has a lengthy lume shot near the end. He says it is C1.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Pictures attached I pulled from the Ginault site.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

bjn74 said:


> Pictures attached I pulled from the Ginault site.
> View attachment 12968213
> 
> View attachment 12968217


I really like it but it probably isn't for me. I have a hard time getting my current Ocean Rover off myvwrist so I can wear other watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

If it had silver hands and a black/silver bezel, then I would be tempted. Anything with gold is a no go for me.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Thanks for the info on the lume, C1 it is then.

Both the red and black bezel inserts are tempting, altough the red would be too close to the original Black bay.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Omegabob said:


> You got that right I'm staying away. :-s


anyone interested in a 79 Datsun pickup....red?


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Jtragic said:


> Is the bracelet something Ginault is now offering on its own?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would LOVE a bracelet in 22mm for my Planet Ocean !!!!!!!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> anyone interested in a 79 Datsun pickup....red?


I used to have a Datsun 810 station wagon...back in '84...during my freshman year in college...ah, the memories.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

Does anyone know how much Ginault charges for the glide lock bracelet as an add on?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I think ginault sent me an email saying that the bracelet retailed for $200.


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

Still loving mine..































I kinda wish it was 42mm and the bezel edges were a bit deeper and sharper to get a good bite on the fingers to operate it. New models on the website look nice as well I might have ordered one if Ginualt would have drilled those lugs . Just to got a lil bit more retro look and feel.

Enjoy
R.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Sorry, double post!


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

New version with black bezel ordered.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Still on the wrist...


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Just got an email from Ginault. They'll put the blue bezel from the 181070GSLID onto the new 185066 if I want. The only thing stopping from doing it at the moment is that the lume pip at 12 o'clock on the bezel is the sand lume instead of the C1 lume on other models in the 185066 series and it won't match the hour markers. I don't really care about the non matching lume at night, more the visual look during daytime. I 'think' the sand lume pip will kind of match the gold/gilt anyway. Thoughts/comments?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> Just got an email from Ginault. They'll put the blue bezel from the 181070GSLID onto the new 185066 if I want. The only thing stopping from doing it at the moment is that the lume pip at 12 o'clock on the bezel is the sand lume instead of the C1 lume on other models in the 185066 series and it won't match the hour markers. I don't really care about the non matching lume at night, more the visual look during daytime. I 'think' the sand lume pip will kind of match the gold/gilt anyway. Thoughts/comments?


I would not do it.

I am also the kind of guy who thinks that, just by making slight modifications, will be happy with it, only to find, finally, that there are mor things with which I am not happy. Long story short, I learned it the hard way. If I don't like something the way it is, I don't buy it.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I would not do it.
> 
> I am also the kind of guy who thinks that, just by making slight modifications, will be happy with it, only to find, finally, that there are mor things with which I am not happy. Long story short, I learned it the hard way. If I don't like something the way it is, I don't buy it.


I agree with this and...I tend to leave things the way the maker designed them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I agree with this and...I tend to leave things the way the maker designed them.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks for the feedback. I guess I should take the advice! The red was my second choice, so may go for that, or wait to see what else they come out with later. I'm also looking at a Monta as I was originally looking at a GMT for my next watch (before the cheaper Ginault came out, I have an Ocean Rover already) and Monta has said they'll be releasing a GMT watch at Baselworld (I nearly bought the Triumph).

Thanks again for the input!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

bjn74 said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I guess I should take the advice! The red was my second choice, so may go for that, or wait to see what else they come out with later. I'm also looking at a Monta as I was originally looking at a GMT for my next watch (before the cheaper Ginault came out, I have an Ocean Rover already) and Monta has said they'll be releasing a GMT watch at Baselworld (I nearly bought the Triumph).
> 
> Thanks again for the input!


If it were me...and I know you are not me...I don't know if I would have considered the new OR while still owning the older OR. If I didn't already own my OR I would be all over this one but they aren't different enough to justify owning both in my mind.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

rosborn said:


> If it were me...and I know you are not me...I don't know if I would have considered the new OR while still owning the older OR. If I didn't already own my OR I would be all over this one but they aren't different enough to justify owning both in my mind.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Fair point! I'm starting to lean to lean the same way!


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

rosborn said:


> If it were me...and I know you are not me...I don't know if I would have considered the new OR while still owning the older OR. If I didn't already own my OR I would be all over this one but they aren't different enough to justify owning both in my mind.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Fair point! I'm starting to lean to lean the same way!


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## Dansdaman (Jan 16, 2018)

I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Dansdaman said:


> I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿


Agreed! It took several emails before I heard back from them, when I had a question; but they did, eventually, respond. They stated that they were busy building watches and thought that was more important, at the time, than responding to emails and questions. I am not saying anything bad about them, that is just my experience and interpretation.


----------



## Dansdaman (Jan 16, 2018)

bjn74 said:


> Just got an email from Ginault. They'll put the blue bezel from the 181070GSLID onto the new 185066 if I want. The only thing stopping from doing it at the moment is that the lume pip at 12 o'clock on the bezel is the sand lume instead of the C1 lume on other models in the 185066 series and it won't match the hour markers. I don't really care about the non matching lume at night, more the visual look during daytime. I 'think' the sand lume pip will kind of match the gold/gilt anyway. Thoughts/comments?


They must know you're in a major watch forum, because I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem I've had with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dansdaman said:


> They must know you're in a major watch forum, because I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem I've had with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿


Maybe you can elaborate on your experience regarding warranty and servicing???

I have sent twice my watch and they (EU service center) were fast, good and very responsive in answering my queries. YMMV

Edit: never mind. I have just seen that you are copy-pasting the same message in all the Ginault threads. Pity...


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Maybe you can elaborate on your experience regarding warranty and servicing???
> 
> I have sent twice my watch and they (EU service center) were fast, good and very responsive in answering my queries. YMMV
> 
> Edit: never mind. I have just seen that you are copy-pasting the same message in all the Ginault threads. Pity...


I noticed the same thing that is also referred to as being a broken record...plaing the same thing over and over. I was going to respond to him until I saw that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)




----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yes we would all love it if every time we made a purchase that the seller treated us like royalty and were at our beck and call but when dealing with boutique/micro brands it is expected that response and delivery times are sometimes slow at best especially with new operations who are often run with skeleton staff.

Anyone who has read this whole thread will have already found that the problems have been few and far between and that most if not all have been resolved to the satisfaction of the buyers.

Some guys should stay with Amazon when buying.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I like to step in periodically to remind readers looking for an honest assessment that any viewpoint that doesn’t positively glow has been chased away. 

If anybody does care to read all this, they’ll find that the legitimate questions about the movement have been answered, in part, by reports of sub-par quality and reliability and long waits for repairs—6-8 weeks for a new watch. Percentages cannot be gauged absent reports from the seller, so anecdotal reports are the best we can do. 

It’s great some of you love yours, but it’s counterfactual to keep pressing this self-referential narrative of sweetness and light, and diminishes the value of the forum to paint a misleading picture. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

hwa said:


> I like to step in periodically to remind readers looking for an honest assessment that any viewpoint that doesn't positively glow has been chased away.
> 
> If anybody does care to read all this, they'll find that the legitimate questions about the movement have been answered, in part, by reports of sub-par quality and reliability and long waits for repairs-6-8 weeks for a new watch. Percentages cannot be gauged absent reports from the seller, so anecdotal reports are the best we can do.
> 
> ...


Every damn time you post I am very happy I have you blocked. You ate that open sore that never heals, that makes its presence known only when complaints are lodged. I pity you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro[


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

59er said:


> Yes we would all love it if every time we made a purchase that the seller treated us like royalty and were at our beck and call but when dealing with boutique/micro brands it is expected that response and delivery times are sometimes slow at best especially with new operations who are often run with skeleton staff.
> 
> Anyone who has read this whole thread will have already found that the problems have been few and far between and that most if not all have been resolved to the satisfaction of the buyers.
> 
> Some guys should stay with Amazon when buying.


More likely a naysayer alias, IMO.


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I noticed the same thing that is also referred to as being a broken record...plaing the same thing over and over. I was going to respond to him until I saw that.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


What a tool, it's probably not even true. I've sent maybe 3 emails and they were all responded to within a day.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> What a tool, it's probably not even true. I've sent maybe 3 emails and they were all responded to within a day.


Let's be careful and cordial. This thread has already been closed a few times. We don't want it closed permanently.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Every damn time you post I am very happy I have you blocked. You ate that open sore that never heals, that makes its presence known only when complaints are lodged. I pity you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro[


I had to block him too, now avoiding threads he frequents, like BSH, which is a shame. I just don't get it. If I don't like a watch I just don't buy it, then I stop caring about it. I don't run around trying to rain on the parade of people that like them. It's such petty behavior. I don't allot room in my life for people like that.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> I had to block him too, now avoiding threads he frequents, like BSH, which is a shame. I just don't get it. If I don't like a watch I just don't buy it, then I stop caring about it. I don't run around trying to rain on the parade of people that like them. It's such petty behavior. I don't allot room in my life for people like that.


Amen brotha!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Let's be careful and cordial. This thread has already been closed a few times. We don't want it closed permanently.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Ok fine, maybe I overreacted with name calling, lol, sorry. But cut and paste spamming? Can't even take the time to write an original complaint? C'mon, he set me up. Apologies.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Ok fine, maybe I overreacted with name calling, lol, sorry. But cut and paste spamming? Can't even take the time to write an original complaint? C'mon, he set me up. Apologies.


I know. I was tempted to do the same but then I thought about how much I appreciate this thread. It is the only one I am subscribed to and I truly like everyone here. That's what stopped me.

I get you and what you're saying. No apologies necessary.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

59er said:


> Yes we would all love it if every time we made a purchase that the seller treated us like royalty and were at our beck and call but when dealing with boutique/micro brands it is expected that response and delivery times are sometimes slow at best especially with new operations who are often run with skeleton staff.
> 
> Anyone who has read this whole thread will have already found that the problems have been few and far between and that most if not all have been resolved to the satisfaction of the buyers.
> 
> Some guys should stay with Amazon when buying.


Small outfits like Ginault are much more responsive then big companies like Rolex , Tudor, Omega, Ginault response time is several weeks, Big companies response time is several month.......


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

hwa said:


> I like to step in periodically to remind readers looking for an honest assessment that any viewpoint that doesn't positively glow has been chased away.
> 
> If anybody does care to read all this, they'll find that the legitimate questions about the movement have been answered, in part, by reports of sub-par quality and reliability and long waits for repairs-6-8 weeks for a new watch. Percentages cannot be gauged absent reports from the seller, so anecdotal reports are the best we can do.
> 
> ...


hva, your persistance to maliciously disparage Ginault in every related thread must be a very painful croisade, resorting solely to distorted facts and lies..... what a way of life!

You have my pity if not my attention.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

kelt said:


> hva, your persistance to maliciously disparage Ginault in every related thread must be a very painful croisade, resorting solely to distorted facts and lies..... what a way of life!
> 
> You have my pity if not my attention.


Are you wanting to censor him because his opinion differs from yours?

The beauty of an open forum is that we are all equal in the ability to share how we feel, independent of someone else's feelings.

Maybe you're the one who takes umbrage with his statements. I say you don't have to reply to him but if you do, then it speaks volumes to what I said in the previous paragraph about who you are and how you respond to someone who differs from you.

Just my two cents.....

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Dec1968 said:


> Are you wanting to censor him because his opinion differs from yours?
> 
> The beauty of an open forum is that we are all equal in the ability to share how we feel, independent of someone else's feelings.
> 
> ...


Shhhh .... bro, stand down. I don't think you want to be involved in a fight that doesn't benefit both of us here. And believe me, I've been monitoring thst person since day one he first PM me. Imho, he is a bit sloppy and insensitive, that's why he had it coming. In fact, even some usual members at BSH didn't seem to like his present there.

Well, I should keep my big fat mouth shut and retreat to another corner of WUS. :-d


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Shhhh .... bro, stand down. I don't think you want to be involved in a fight that doesn't benefit both of us here. And believe me, I've been monitoring thst person since day one he first PM me. Imho, he is a bit sloppy and insensitive, that's why he had it coming. In fact, even some usual members at BSH didn't seem to like his present there.
> 
> Well, I should keep my big fat mouth shut and retreat to another corner of WUS. :-d


I hear you and thank you. I'm not defending that one person.

I'll say this: when I myself voiced my opinion that wasn't 100% pro-Ginault, I got leveled. So this resonates with me on some small level. I've pretty much avoided the Ginault forums for that very reason. Fanboys basically attacking anyone who says anything negative about their brand of choice.

That's all I will say.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Shhhh .... bro, stand down. I don't think you want to be involved in a fight that doesn't benefit both of us here. And believe me, I've been monitoring thst person since day one he first PM me. Imho, he is a bit sloppy and insensitive, that's why he had it coming. In fact, even some usual members at BSH didn't seem to like his present there.
> 
> Well, I should keep my big fat mouth shut and retreat to another corner of WUS. :-d


Shame on you. Dec1968 has "spoken" and you deigned yourself important enough to offer a response. Shame. Shame. Shame.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

:roll:


Dec1968 said:


> Are you wanting to censor him because his opinion differs from yours?
> 
> The beauty of an open forum is that we are all equal in the ability to share how we feel, independent of someone else's feelings.
> 
> ...


If I had in mind to censor him, I wouldn't quote him! ;-)

He is on my ignore list so he goes unnoticed unless someone quotes him. :roll:


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

kelt said:


> If I had in mind to censor him, I wouldn't quote him! ;-)


Certainly understandable.

I'm just sharing that I have been throttled by many people last year for expressing my thoughts that didn't match theirs and I recall most everyone piling on. Honestly, that really has the tendency to turn many people off who probably chose to never comment or join in by simply reading all the aggressiveness and unforgiving nature of the fans and saying to themselves 'why bother'.

If there is indeed an issue where Ginault cannot correct their flaws or may actually be avoiding them - at the price point they're asking for their beautiful product, they had better be prepared to hear some direct and harsh criticism. Same for those who are fans of their brand. At some point, if those allegations prove to be accurate, as an owner of a watch I paid over $500 for and had the promise of excellence, I'd be furious. To me, Ginault has a unique opportunity to change everyone's mind and appear amazing, or the chance to blunder this and destroy their brand.

The reality is that true value shows up after the sale. New stuff is always shiny and awesome. Once you encounter a problem, you then really find out who the company is by how they treat you when they're the ones 'spending their own company money on servicing their customer' - not receiving it as a 'for sale' item.

I'd love to have one, but I personally don't see the value at their asking price. Doesn't mean there is no value, it means their value at that price doesn't exceed my value request for that price point. That's personal and not reflective of their actual value.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

rosborn said:


> Shame on you. Dec1968 has "spoken" and you deigned yourself important enough to offer a response. Shame. Shame. Shame.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


This is precisely the treatment I am speaking of. Thank you for providing an immediate and obvious display of what my comment was trying to state.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Purple Hayz (Jan 21, 2015)

rosborn said:


> Every damn time you post I am very happy I have you blocked. You ate that open sore that never heals, that makes its presence known only when complaints are lodged. I pity you.





skunkworks said:


> I had to block him too, now avoiding threads he frequents, like BSH, which is a shame. I just don't get it. If I don't like a watch I just don't buy it, then I stop caring about it. I don't run around trying to rain on the parade of people that like them. It's such petty behavior. I don't allot room in my life for people like that.





kelt said:


> hva, your persistance to maliciously disparage Ginault in every related thread must be a very painful croisade, resorting solely to distorted facts and lies..... what a way of life!
> 
> You have my pity if not my attention.


Rubbish. He simply has a different point of view, as is his right. As I recall, didn't HWA purchase an OR and review it favorably? Even in comparison to the _actual _watch whose styling and design aesthetic Ginault so effectively copies.

Did I miss something? Or is the spirit of this thread no longer consistent with its title, which calls on "Classic submariner lovers"?

Shouting down dissenting viewpoints--and those who hold them--may ease your minds and reinforce your perceptions, but only by sacrificing objectivity, balance, and the open, democratic nature of the forum.

Is that your goal? If so, why not start a thread called "Ginault Love! Contrarian Views can SUCK IT" or something similar?



Dec1968 said:


> Are you wanting to censor him because his opinion differs from yours?
> 
> The beauty of an open forum is that we are all equal in the ability to share how we feel, independent of someone else's feelings.
> 
> ....Just my two cents.....


This^


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Purple Hayz said:


> Rubbish. He simply has a different point of view, as is his right. As I recall, didn't HWA purchase an OR and review it favorably? Even in comparison to the _actual _watch whose styling and design aesthetic Ginault so effectively copies.
> 
> Did I miss something? Or is the spirit of this thread no longer consistent with its title, which calls on "Classic submariner lovers"?
> 
> ...


I personally felt like he was no longer contributing anything constructive. Appreciate the different point of view and the criticisms. But that should have been the end of it. The trollish behavior of monitoring these threads looking for any in to repetitively throw shade on a product was just a turn off for me. First and only person I ever muted.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Purple Hayz said:


> Rubbish. He simply has a different point of view, as is his right. As I recall, didn't HWA purchase an OR and review it favorably? Even in comparison to the _actual _watch whose styling and design aesthetic Ginault so effectively copies.
> 
> Did I miss something? Or is the spirit of this thread no longer consistent with its title, which calls on "Classic submariner lovers"?
> 
> ...


That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it doesn't change the fact that HWA seems to have an axe to grind because ALL he ever does is b*tch about Ginault. I don't have to give credence to a broken record. "Back in the day" I threw broken and severely scratched records out...I didn't listen to them. And...if I recall correctly, HWA had an OR, removed the caseback for some reason, screwed up his OR, and got p*ssed when Ginault wouldn't give him a refund or replace the watch. So...HWA's intentions/motivations are not as pure as you propose.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

all the contact requests after the purchase of my Ginault Ocean Rover have been handled fast and friendly. Just my experience.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Nuff said. Time for pics!


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

rosborn said:


> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it doesn't change the fact that HWA seems to have an axe to grind because ALL he ever does is b*tch about Ginault. I don't have to give credence to a broken record. "Back in the day" I threw broken and severely scratched records out...I didn't listen to them. And...if I recall correctly, HWA had an OR, removed the caseback for some reason, screwed up his OR, and got p*ssed when Ginault wouldn't give him a refund or replace the watch. So...HWA's intentions/motivations are not as pure as you propose.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Your facts are flat wrong. Bought an OR, reviewed it against my 16610, lost interest in it when (1) Ginault refused to answer questions and (2) the first round of sycophants started their nonsense, and sold it for what I paid to someone who approached me privately to buy it.

I removed the back to see what the emperor's new underwear looked like, because i wanted to see what there was to see. Alas, no special sauce.

I did especially enjoy your moment of lost faith, though. That was pretty special. Glad you've got your feet back under you.

I'm here for the watches. Ive benefitted from others' factual, reasoned posts, and still others that just made me laugh. As long as people keep posting pie-eyed, counterfactual fluff pieces, I'll balance the other side of the scales as i see fit. You few with your ad hominem attacks? Pfft.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Here is another photo...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Keep them coming!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well OK I can see both sides of the argument, yes I suppose the comments from the "Fan Boys" (of which I am obviously one) can become nausious to the less enthusiastic members but the recent comments were spurred by the post below which has been cut and pasted on several threads.

"I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿"

So to me this comment does not appear to be from an experienced buyer of micro brand watches who has realistic expectations or likely has had to deal with similar situations from the bigger brands but more likely someone who is disappointed that he hasn't been treated like a VIP and has now decided to reap revenge and try to discredit Ginault for having the audacity of not immediately responding to his demands.

He hasn't offered any reference to what has actually happened in order for him to make statements like "Warrantee and servicing what a joke" so his whole post has no credibility in my view and that of some other members views so I really wouldn't consider making any comment on his post as "bashing any negative post"

Us fanboys have had many derogatory and sarcastic posts made directly at us so we have just as much right to claim that we are being targeted for our positive posts.

So in the end it's all only opinions and very little fact that is ever posted on forums and in my opinion the owning and purchase experience has been more that satisfactory but of course my expectations may differ from other members.

But of course in the end I am here mostly for the pics anyway.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

59er said:


> Well OK I can see both sides of the argument, yes I suppose the comments from the "Fan Boys" (of which I am obviously one) can become nausious to the less enthusiastic members but the recent comments were spurred by the post below which has been cut and pasted on several threads.
> 
> "I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿"
> 
> ...


Spot on!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Dansdaman said:


> I have a Ginault. They make a nice watch wherever it's made. The problem with Ginault is that they run and hide after the sale. No phone number, not even an address. Completely unresponsive to emails. So go ahead and spend your thousand bucks. Just don't expect Ginault to be there for you if anything goes wrong. Oh, and that "warranty" and servicing? What a joke!﻿


I don't think there is anything wrong to voice out his experience with Ginault at all. Part of having the forum is so that we share our experience good or bad. But it is a bit weird that there is no follow up reports form him.

I am curious, what is the issue on the watch? has it been handled? how is it handled? so on and so forth, I think it is equally important to share the follow up info/exp with us.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

here are some lume shots, this watch is really beautifully executed, and just melts on the wrist.


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

hwa said:


> I like to step in periodically to remind readers looking for an honest assessment that any viewpoint that doesn't positively glow has been chased away.
> 
> If anybody does care to read all this, they'll find that the legitimate questions about the movement have been answered, in part, by reports of sub-par quality and reliability and long waits for repairs-6-8 weeks for a new watch. Percentages cannot be gauged absent reports from the seller, so anecdotal reports are the best we can do.
> 
> ...


Huh?? These "sub-par" reports are where to be found? Post the links.


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

My emails from Ginault are answered..And he even gave me a few hints as to what was to come in the future. Geez you can’t expect an instant response from them as they are small outfit and as it seems they are quite busy. So good for them and cudos the Ginault for putting together a pretty darn good watch that presented with a nice box and paperwork. You could spend more and get a zippered letherette case, lol.

Im very much tempted to get the new green bezel version. 

@Ginault... could you make the bezel edges a lil deeper and sharper ..oh and a 42mm version.??


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

My emails from Ginault are answered..And he even gave me a few hints as to what was to come in the future. Geez you can’t expect an instant response from them as they are small outfit and as it seems they are quite busy. So good for them and cudos the Ginault for putting together a pretty darn good watch that presented with a nice box and paperwork. You could spend more and get a zippered letherette case, lol.

Im very much tempted to get the new green bezel version. 

@Ginault... could you make the bezel edges a lil deeper and sharper ..oh and a 42mm version.??


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I hear you and thank you. I'm not defending that one person.
> 
> I'll say this: when I myself voiced my opinion that wasn't 100% pro-Ginault, I got leveled. So this resonates with me on some small level. I've pretty much avoided the Ginault forums for that very reason. Fanboys basically attacking anyone who says anything negative about their brand of choice.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing the constant, antagonistic posting by some incredibly persistent and malicious forum members. None of it has much - if anything - to do with the workmanship or quality of the watch. Or the generally very well-regarded customer service. It really isn't difficult to pick out the handful of forum members with an over-zealous negative agenda.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)




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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

kelt said:


> :roll:
> 
> If I had in mind to censor him, I wouldn't quote him! ;-)
> 
> He is on my ignore list so he goes unnoticed unless someone quotes him. :roll:


Same here. Ignored months ago.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

skunkworks said:


> I personally felt like he was no longer contributing anything constructive. Appreciate the different point of view and the criticisms. But that should have been the end of it. The trollish behavior of monitoring these threads looking for any in to repetitively throw shade on a product was just a turn off for me. First and only person I ever muted.


Spot on. The agenda was abundantly clear to everyone who didn't share - you guessed it - his agenda.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

rosborn said:


> That is your opinion and you are entitled to it but it doesn't change the fact that HWA seems to have an axe to grind because ALL he ever does is b*tch about Ginault. I don't have to give credence to a broken record. "Back in the day" I threw broken and severely scratched records out...I didn't listen to them. And...if I recall correctly, HWA had an OR, removed the caseback for some reason, screwed up his OR, and got p*ssed when Ginault wouldn't give him a refund or replace the watch. So...HWA's intentions/motivations are not as pure as you propose.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


He bought the watch precisely to find fault and demean the product and company. And then could offer nothing in that regard, aside from complaining that the rotor wasn't signed. Relentless campaign since.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

oceanfan said:


> My emails from Ginault are answered..And he even gave me a few hints as to what was to come in the future. Geez you can't expect an instant response from them as they are small outfit and as it seems they are quite busy. So good for them and cudos the Ginault for putting together a pretty darn good watch that presented with a nice box and paperwork. You could spend more and get a zippered letherette case, lol.
> 
> Im very much tempted to get the new green bezel version.
> 
> @Ginault... could you make the bezel edges a lil deeper and sharper ..oh and a 42mm version.??


My emails to Ginault have always been answered promptly too.

Am I a fan boy? Well, I own one and I wear it all the time. If that makes me a fan boy then so be it. I will defend them against slander because I defend everyone against slander. Most, and I do mean most, of the angst towards Ginault has been unfounded innuendo and hearsay. I hate that garbage.

I will believe Ginault's claims until I have good reason notvto, just like I believe what Oris, Seiko, and TAG Heuer, as well as others, say about themselves.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

You know, with all the bickering and axe grinding going on in this thread, I find it much easier to form opinions about various participants than about either the watch or the company producing it. 

Here is my ownership experience for those interested: I was one of the early purchasers of the Ocean Rover, buying the watch back in December of 2016. The watch was in heavy regular wearing rotation throughout the year, despite me also purchasing an SLA017. This in itself should speak volumes as to how well I liked the watch (for those not aware, the SLA017 is a $3,500, limited edition Seiko dive watch). 

My watch started to exhibit some power reserve issues (not building or keeping power) around the beginning of this year. 

I returned the watch to Ginault for repair and have had regular communication with John M. throughout the process. Ginault has not only met, but exceeded my expectations as a consumer (to the point where I will be posting a new review in the coming weeks). 

Again, I am only a consumer who purchased a single watch reporting my honest experiences to the forum.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> You know, with all the bickering and axe grinding going on in this thread, I find it much easier to form opinions about various participants than about either the watch or the company producing it.
> 
> Here is my ownership experience for those interested: I was one of the early purchasers of the Ocean Rover, buying the watch back in December of 2016. The watch was in heavy regular wearing rotation throughout the year, despite me also purchasing an SLA017. This in itself should speak volumes as to how well I liked the watch (for those not aware, the SLA017 is a $3,500, limited edition Seiko dive watch).
> 
> ...


Fantastic testimony. Thank you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

oceanfan said:


> My emails from Ginault are answered..And he even gave me a few hints as to what was to come in the future. Geez you can't expect an instant response from them as they are small outfit and as it seems they are quite busy. So good for them and cudos the Ginault for putting together a pretty darn good watch that presented with a nice box and paperwork. You could spend more and get a zippered letherette case, lol.
> 
> Im very much tempted to get the new green bezel version.
> 
> @Ginault... could you make the bezel edges a lil deeper and sharper ..oh and a 42mm version.??


 I've only seen the blue and red. I would love a colored one but in silver not gilt... just saw the green but again gold numbers...


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

I was wondering why mfy1tym has not jumped in yet and saw that they (and I mean they) got banned. I wonder why. ;-)


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Quick question for anyone (that I probably should be putting in the the for sale folder as a trade). I originally bought the 'standard' Ocean Rover 181070GSLN and love it (gold lume, black bezel, no date). However, if I had the choice at the time I would have bought the 181070LSILN (blue lume, no date). Anyone in the reverse situation and would consider a trade of the watch head (might as well keep the bracelet that's already sized). Let me know! And apologies in advance if posting this here breaks a forum rule.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

That dial is just amazing!


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I am not sure if anyone had the same trouble I had with the bracelet. I love the glidelock however I think there is some tolerance at play. If you put too much lateral force on either side it stops gliding. 
But after a few drops of wax based dry lube, it glides and locks down really nicely. Try it, it will change the whole glideability, if that's a word 








Another subtle detail I noticed which I have not seen mentioned anywhere on their site is that these links are just like Rolex's with sleeves for the screws to prevent the bracelet from strenching. This is a really really nice touch and a pleasant surprise. I don't think I have came across a bracelet with this feature at this price range. I don't know why Ginault didn't market it more.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

This has been stated by many but I feel the need to restate it. The Ocean Rover is the watch I searched for invall my purchases and flips...and there were many. The funny thing for me is I did not realize it until I straped it on my wrist. That was an “ah ha” moment for me. I fully understand how corny that sounds but it’s true. I’ve owned some decent watches a few Oris Aquis’, a couple Seiko MM300s, a couple TAG Heuers, etc.. I am not going to say that my Ocean Rover is better than those watches but it ticks all of my boxes. 
When I purchased my Ocean Rover I had been through a lot of watches abd I was looking for some pretty specific things:
1. I wanted a watch under $1000,
2. I wanted a classic “normal size” styled watch.
I3. I was determined to be a one watch guy - like most of our grandfathers were.
4. I wanted something that could be worn for all occasions.
5. I wanted a watch that could serve as my “rest of my life” watch.the Ocean Rover serves all of those requirements for me.
I am under no illusions that this watch is more than it is. I love it and I happen to think it’s a great watch. In the end, that’s all that really matters because I purchased it with MY money. If you don’t like it you can have a concersation with yourself in front of a mirror or while you’re dropping a deuce or taking a shower. I couldn’t care less. Your anger/angst have ni inpact on my joy. I am a man, soon to be 53, and I would be a poir excuse for a man if your opinion influenced ny feelings for my Ocean Rover one iota.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

amazing Watch...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> amazing Watch...
> 
> View attachment 12978177


Agree!


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)




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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

oceanfan said:


> View attachment 12979575
> View attachment 12979579


nice pictures...


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I just placed my order for a Smurf O-R.....after much internal dialogue and debate. I look forward to sharing my impression of this piece as I recently sold my Blancpain Flyback and my Cartier Tank and I intend this to be my "tweener" until I figure out what might be next...who knows maybe this will be it. I've read all about this piece and enjoyed all the insights...its sounds almost too good to be true and John @ Ginault has been great with answering my questions. Stay tuned!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I just placed my order for a Smurf O-R.....after much internal dialogue and debate. I look forward to sharing my impression of this piece as I recently sold my Blancpain Flyback and my Cartier Tank and I intend this to be my "tweener" until I figure out what might be next...who knows maybe this will be it. I've read all about this piece and enjoyed all the insights...its sounds almost too good to be true and John @ Ginault has been great with answering my questions. Stay tuned!


I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I just placed my order for a Smurf O-R.....after much internal dialogue and debate. I look forward to sharing my impression of this piece as I recently sold my Blancpain Flyback and my Cartier Tank and I intend this to be my "tweener" until I figure out what might be next...who knows maybe this will be it. I've read all about this piece and enjoyed all the insights...its sounds almost too good to be true and John @ Ginault has been great with answering my questions. Stay tuned!


You won't be disappointed. Now it is just the wait


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

> Now it is just the wait


 I know. Ordered my Smurf no date February 27th and still haven't gotten a shipping notification. They must be really backed up.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

GMArthur said:


> I know. Ordered my Smurf no date February 27th and still haven't gotten a shipping notification. They must be really backed up.


I think the Rover is well worth the wait. This watch is packed with tones of super refine details. I don't know why Ginault doesn't realy mention them, really doing themselves a disservice.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

It's amazing how each individual groove on the bezel is finely finished to perfection.


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

MarkGT900 said:


> It's amazing how each individual groove on the bezel is finely finished to perfection.
> View attachment 12984717
> 
> View attachment 12984721
> ...


Originally they said they had Gunsmiths perfect the bezels.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jacko321 (Aug 21, 2017)

Blancpain and Cartier! The Ginault is not in there class


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

LARufCTR said:


> I just placed my order for a Smurf O-R.....after much internal dialogue and debate. I look forward to sharing my impression of this piece as I recently sold my Blancpain Flyback and my Cartier Tank and I intend this to be my "tweener" until I figure out what might be next...who knows maybe this will be it. I've read all about this piece and enjoyed all the insights...its sounds almost too good to be true and John @ Ginault has been great with answering my questions. Stay tuned!


I'm tempted a little bit as well. But I want to see how it is packaged box n papers etc. Would be cool if a nato style strap was included with the kit. So I will wait and see after the first deliveries. Plus there is a Hamilton an Oris and a Laco that I want to pick up.

Rich


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Jacko321 said:


> Blancpain and Cartier! The Ginault is not in there class


Ok....I'll make the correction for you, "their". Care to elaborate a bit on your comparison, or lack there of?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

drttown said:


> Ok....I'll make the correction for you, "their." Care to elaborate a bit on your comparison, or lack thereof?


FTFY.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jacko321 (Aug 21, 2017)

Fahoms


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I don't know how long the wait will be.....I haven't heard anything. I'm down to my SKX007 as my only watch...and that's fine for the moment...great lume.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

LARufCTR said:


> I don't know how long the wait will be.....I haven't heard anything. I'm down to my SKX007 as my only watch...and that's fine for the moment...great lume.


Just curious, so what happened to your Hamtun H1?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

oceanfan said:


> Would be cool if a nato style strap was included with the kit.


A nato strap is included.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Jacko321 said:


> Blancpain and Cartier! The Ginault is not in [their] class


No one said it was. Here's the relevant quote:



LARufCTR said:


> I just placed my order for a Smurf O-R.....after much internal dialogue and debate. I look forward to sharing my impression of this piece as I recently sold my Blancpain Flyback and my Cartier Tank and I intend this to be my "tweener" until I figure out what might be next...who knows maybe this will be it.


Please note that no actual comparison is being made, in particular since LARufCTR does not yet have a Ginault in hand.

I do look forward to reading his comments when he gets it.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Just curious, so what happened to your Hamtun H1?


It left the stable. I wore it a lot...and loved the fit, finish and lightness....and it kept great time! But, my biggest problem was it was hard to read with the crystal so reflective. It actually got annoying to me. If the crystal was better it would have stayed and the Ginault would likely not be necessary as between the H1 and my 007 I could have been happy waiting to decide what was the next piece for me. That said, I'm excited for the Ginault as its about as high-end for this category as you can get and that will be fun to explore and enjoy...


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Jacko321 said:


> Blancpain and Cartier! The Ginault is not in there class


For me the Ginault is a place keeper until I can figure out what's next. It will be good to wear a bracelet watch for a bit and also experience the size and heft. I was very close to buying a 39mm Explorer but balked at last moment as I'm still thinking of getting another BP...I like the big date Aqualung and the Flyback (both 40mm)...I even like the Bathyscaphe, but the 43mm is really big and the 38mm I haven't seen in person yet. I love BPs...its just getting used to the idea of spending that kind of $$ for a watch...and on the spectrum of lux watches, its not even that much $$...LOL...

That said, I will be able to compare the Ginault to what has left...even my old Sub....heck, I even bought at Squale 1521, but never wore it....but have enjoyed admiring the quality of the watch. So yes, I'll have some feedback, but I think with any watch you have to compare what you get for what you paid....As you'll see I had a Hamtun H1...that was a lot of watch for the $$. But it wasn't a BP...kept almost as good time as my BP


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

GMArthur said:


> I know. Ordered my Smurf no date February 27th and still haven't gotten a shipping notification. They must be really backed up.


If they build them to order...I figure 6-weeks at least as if I recall that's what it takes to regulate the movement....I'm not sure they have inventory sitting on shelves....as odd as that may sound.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

LARufCTR said:


> It left the stable. I wore it a lot...and loved the fit, finish and lightness....and it kept great time! But, my biggest problem was it was hard to read with the crystal so reflective. It actually got annoying to me. If the crystal was better it would have stayed and the Ginault would likely not be necessary as between the H1 and my 007 I could have been happy waiting to decide what was the next piece for me. That said, I'm excited for the Ginault as its about as high-end for this category as you can get and that will be fun to explore and enjoy...


I see. No problem. Sorry about the crystal, as I didn't think that it was that reflective, to me at least. Maybe I'm so used to dome sapphire crystals. Hope that you'll enjoy yoir incoming Ginault. I know I do with mine.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

awesome timepiece...


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I few days ago I posted about my experiences with Ginault's customer service and hinted at being very positively impressed.

For those who missed it, the summary is I was an early purchaser of an Ocean Rover, receiving the watch in December of 2016. I wore the OR in heavy rotation throughout all of last year. I started to experience some issues with the power reserve and, after communicating with Ginault, was issued a repair authorization for the watch.

My OR has been with Ginault since about mid-January and, due to Ginault's business expansion, is likely to be there a bit longer.

Where normally I would expect a manufacturer to simply provide an apology for the delay and assurances they will do their best to turn around the repair as quickly as possible, John went a BIG step beyond my expectations.

John asked if I would be interested to try out one of their new LVD models as a loaner so I could still wear a Ginault watch while I waited for mine to return. To be honest, it took a couple of email exchanges for me to fully comprehend and accept the offer.

The watch was delivered today and it certainly is nice to have a Ginault back on the wrist. Below are a few photos of the LVD model. I selected the green and gold in honor of St. Patrick's Day (plus, hopefully the green and gold will remind me of green grass and sunshine as we hunker down for another mid-week snow storm).

Quick pics to share with the forum for now. I'll post a more thorough review with some comparison photos in the review forum later this week.















The leather strap appears very well made, double thick, with a signed buckle.








That said, I'll wear it on one of my personal NATO's (kangaroo leather Toxic) as to not damage the stock strap. This is a loaner after all and I want to be as considerate as possible in light of Ginault's generosity.









Ginault did say the lume on these dials is not as strong or as long lasting as the premium Ocean Rover. I'll do a better test for my review, but a quick snap in a dark room shows the lume is evenly applied.

My initial impressions are very positive on the watch. Even more positive are my impressions of Ginault as a company. They have, in my opinion, gone above and beyond the call in their efforts toward customer satisfaction.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> They have, in my opinion, gone above and beyond the call in their efforts toward customer satisfaction.


Thanks for sharing! Very impressed with this offer.


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

59er said:


> Yes we would all love it if every time we made a purchase that the seller treated us like royalty and were at our beck and call but when dealing with boutique/micro brands it is expected that response and delivery times are sometimes slow at best especially with new operations who are often run with skeleton staff.


I never had a problem with RGM, Oak & Oscar, or for that matter, Ginault.

Experiences may vary, I suppose.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I few days ago I posted about my experiences with Ginault's customer service and hinted at being very positively impressed.
> 
> For those who missed it, the summary is I was an early purchaser of an Ocean Rover, receiving the watch in December of 2016. I wore the OR in heavy rotation throughout all of last year. I started to experience some issues with the power reserve and, after communicating with Ginault, was issued a repair authorization for the watch.
> 
> ...


Must be nice, I can't even get John to let me know if my watch has even been looked at yet.....,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Must be nice, I can't even get John to let me know if my watch has even been looked at yet.....,


That's not good. Sorry to hear that. I hope he gets back to you and sends your watch back soon.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Me too.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Me too.


I'm sorry to hear this too.

FWIW, I wasn't trying to be a squeaky wheel. John and I had a couple email exchanges when I first discovered the issue with my OR. He issued the return authorization and gave me an ETA on the repair. I didn't write Ginault again until we were getting close to the estimated return date, and I only wrote then because I was planning a two week trip and didn't want the watch to be sitting on my doorstep.

It wasn't until this second email exchange that John mentioned my watch was still in the queue and he offered the loaner.

For full transparency, I don't write for a blog, I don't have a YouTube channel, and I am certainly not a "professional" reviewer. I'm just a dive watch enthusiast who appreciates the classic sword hand Mil Sub style.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm sorry to hear this too.
> 
> FWIW, I wasn't trying to be a squeaky wheel. John and I had a couple email exchanges when I first discovered the issue with my OR. He issued the return authorization and gave me an ETA on the repair. I didn't write Ginault again until we were getting close to the estimated return date, and I only wrote then because I was planning a two week trip and didn't want the watch to be sitting on my doorstep.
> 
> ...


I figured you were a reviewer or something to be honest... I dunno, the whole thing is a bit frustrating to say the least. I'm told they don't sell seconds so they won't send me a new watch when mine clearly isn't right but they can offer you a loaner? So when you send that one back will they destroy it since it won't be able to be sold? It all sounds a bit fishy to me but either way I'm in for a penny, in for a pound I suppose. I really would think that if you get a watch that doesn't work right in the first 30 days, you should be able to refund or exchange. That's just me though, I don't know how anyone else handles these sorts of issues. Either way I'm out $900 and no watch as of right now. Sigh....


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## oceanfan (Feb 28, 2011)

I would keep emailing but also at the same time hit him up on Instagram.. Im sure he has is notifications set to “ON”... I have had luck contacting companies on Instagram. If no luck post something within the comments on the most recent photo posted. .

R.


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

oceanfan said:


> I would keep emailing but also at the same time hit him up on Instagram.. Im sure he has is notifications set to "ON"... I have had luck contacting companies on Instagram. If no luck post something within the comments on the most recent photo posted. .
> 
> R.


I would highly doubt that. Ginault social media presence is almost non existent. That's always been one of the main criticisms to be fair it's legitimate criticism. No social media presence,no phone number,no physical address,no pictures of their watch studio. Other than John nobody really knows who they are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Just out of curiosity....what's the usual wait time once you order an OR?...I was dead set on a second hand one w/the instant gratification factor, but then the $$ delta between new and used...made me say..." Dude....just buy new and it will be yours first!....no scratches, dings, dents or stories"


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

LARufCTR said:


> Just out of curiosity....what's the usual wait time once you order an OR?...I was dead set on a second hand one w/the instant gratification factor, but then the $$ delta between new and used...made me say..." Dude....just buy new and it will be yours first!....no scratches, dings, dents or stories"


 I enquired about my order as the website stated my model would ship in 3 to 5 days. John said they are currently about 15 to 20 days in his response email. Today would be day 20 for me so I'd guess mine would be shipped out sometime this week. Not sure if times have gone up or down since when I ordered mine last month.

Hope this helps.

- Greg


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> Just out of curiosity....what's the usual wait time once you order an OR?...I was dead set on a second hand one w/the instant gratification factor, but then the $$ delta between new and used...made me say..." Dude....just buy new and it will be yours first!....no scratches, dings, dents or stories"


When I ordered mine it said 3-5 days and took right at 3 weeks.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

3-5 days = 3 weeks? Ginault needs more elfs.....


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GMArthur said:


> I enquired about my order as the website stated my model would ship in 3 to 5 days. John said they are currently about 15 to 20 days in his response email. Today would be day 20 for me so I'd guess mine would be shipped out sometime this week. Not sure if times have gone up or down since when I ordered mine last month.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> - Greg


It is well worth the wait


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

LARufCTR said:


> 3-5 days = 3 weeks? Ginault needs more elfs.....


Or just update their website / order response time estimate.

In my experience collecting and dealing with small / micro manufacturers, it isn't the wait that necessarily bothers people. People get frustrated (case in point) when their expectations are not met.

People wait years for a MKii (9+ years according to what I've read) and the brand still has customers. I've read that even their "ready to wear" models can take weeks between order placement and delivery. I myself have waited months for an OWC and CREPAS. In these cases, though, people pretty much knew what to expect (at least I did with OWC and CREPAS).

I'd suggest Ginault not hire more elves, but rather just state it will take approximately 1 month from order placement to shipment. If you get your watch in a week, you feel great. If it takes 3 or 4 weeks, your expectations were met, so all is still OK.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

It's always a joy to do a wrist check. Ocean Rover has been on a very biased rotation since it's arrival. I can't seem to get enough of it.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

MarkGT900 said:


> It's always a joy to do a wrist check. Ocean Rover has been on a very biased rotation since it's arrival. I can't seem to get enough of it.
> 
> View attachment 12991235
> 
> View attachment 12991237


I'm the same way. I have a brand new Hamilton Khaki Field hand-wind that just is not getting any wrist time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

Every time I see a pic of the blue lume one word comes to mind......'clean'. It's a very fresh looking color for sure.


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

That blue lume looks amazing!


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> Or just update their website / order response time estimate.
> 
> In my experience collecting and dealing with small / micro manufacturers, it isn't the wait that necessarily bothers people. People get frustrated (case in point) when their expectations are not met.
> 
> ...


More elves and an updated web site. People don't like to wait...that's why Ginault likely doesn't show the estimated ship window. I didn't get the cyclopse date version as it said "made to order....6-8 weeks"....I didn't want to wait that long...so, I guess if Ginault has that "warning" for the date version, they should have some indication for the other versions...otherwise, it leaves you with the impression they units are in stock...


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

LARufCTR said:


> More elves and an updated web site. People don't like to wait...that's why Ginault likely doesn't show the estimated ship window. I didn't get the cyclopse date version as it said "made to order....6-8 weeks"....I didn't want to wait that long...so, I guess if Ginault has that "warning" for the date version, they should have some indication for the other versions...otherwise, it leaves you with the impression they units are in stock...


I just noticed that the new Ginault models state a 4-6 week delivery time. Looks like Ginault is giving itself and it's customers more realistic expectations.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Smoothtoquer said:


> I just noticed that the new Ginault models state a 4-6 week delivery time. Looks like Ginault is giving itself and it's customers more realistic expectations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think this is a good change.

I know we all want immediate satisfaction and hiring more workers seems like the easy answer, but if we take Ginault at their word that these watches are at a minimum at least assembled in the United States, just the prospect of finding more help is a daunting task. The United States isn't overflowing with watchmakers looking for jobs.

Look at Kobold's issues as an example. They are reportedly trying to rebuild their workforce and are significantly backed up not just in new order delivery, but in the return of repair work as well. Their brand equity has been significantly damaged, and they were once considered to be a "premier" micro watch maker.

My guess is Ginault builds a number of their watches to stock (the ones they anticipate to be very popular), but when demand exceeds their inventory, this is when the delays occur.

A comment was made earlier about Ginault's relative lack of social media presence (Instagram, etc.). Maybe this is by design? If they are truly building a US-based brand with US assembly (if not US manufacturing), they simply do not have the capacity to meet the demand a heavy social media presence could generate.

Personally, I'd rather see a slow and steady building of the brand, extending their build quality to new, more unique, designs than follow the path of MKii or Kobold with month - year long delays. Just my $.02


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Tbjay1215 said:


> I would highly doubt that. Ginault social media presence is almost non existent. That's always been one of the main criticisms to be fair it's legitimate criticism. No social media presence,no phone number,no physical address,no pictures of their watch studio. Other than John nobody really knows who they are.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I want idle chitchat, I go to a Bar, If I want to buy the best quality Submariner homage, I get a Ginault, I'd rather have them building watches than be present on the net, satisfied Ginault owners are doing a good job here.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

kelt said:


> If I want idle chitchat, I go to a Bar, If I want to buy the best quality Submariner homage, I get a Ginault, I'd rather have them building watches than be present on the net, satisfied Ginault owners are doing a good job here.


Or they could take a Halios page and have a large Instagram presence - and be able to satisfy only a fraction of the demand. It can cut both ways.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Smoothtoquer said:


> I just noticed that the new Ginault models state a 4-6 week delivery time. Looks like Ginault is giving itself and it's customers more realistic expectations.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


I think it is a good step that Ginault has more transparent lead times quoting on their webpage.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> I think it is a good step that Ginault has more transparent lead times quoting on their webpage.


I will keep everyone informed as to my wait time...I ordered on 3/17.....


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

*Accuracy of Ginault 7275...Post Your Performance Here!!!*

Just curious to hear how well the 7274 movement performance is across the board.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

*Re: Accuracy of Ginault 7275...Post Your Performance Here!!!*

I think part of the backlash is the minutia with watch

'Does it look good during a hailstorm on leap year' thoughts ? Could this been in the general thread on this especially since your not posting any data to kick it off


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

*Re: Accuracy of Ginault 7275...Post Your Performance Here!!!*

I'm a Ginault owner, but the last thing this forum needs is another Ginault thread.

EDIT: looks like the new thread was merged into the main thread ...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

*Re: Accuracy of Ginault 7275...Post Your Performance Here!!!*


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I'm test running the LVM, budget, version of the OR with non-regulated movement. For this reason (i.e. no claims of COSC level accuracy) I am not measuring the daily accuracy as it would be unfair in my opinion.

That said, I set the watch against my cell phone upon receipt on Monday, and today - three and a half days later - it is still accurate to the minute against the phone.

The watch is being worn approximately 16 hours per day and resting dial up during the night. I am paying no special attention to trying to influence the timing using positional variance. The watch is either on the wrist or on the nightstand dial up.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Sun rover


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Jealous Rover ^^^


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Working Rover


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Commuting Rover


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I will keep everyone informed as to my wait time...I ordered on 3/17.....


I was contacted by John @ Ginault today (3/24) informing me my wait time would be 2-3 weeks from date of order


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

No Sunday without my Ocean Rover...


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Court Rover  Hoping the snow has melted and the courts are dry today!!!
View attachment 13005235


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

I would like some input from the forum members. My Ocean Rover is three weeks old and has been running 10 to 12 seconds fast per day. The final 6 week regulation provided from Ginault showed 1 second fast per day. Just for the heck of it, I demagnetized the watch this morning. Assuming the Rover is still running 10-12 seconds fast per day, would this be justification for sending the watch back to be re-regulated. What is an acceptable +/- in seconds for the Rover. It is presented as undergoing such a lengthy regulation process, but in this case, it just doesn't match up. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject. Thanks in advance to those who reply.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Eye Doc said:


> I would like some input from the forum members. My Ocean Rover is three weeks old and has been running 10 to 12 seconds fast per day. The final 6 week regulation provided from Ginault showed 1 second fast per day. Just for the heck of it, I demagnetized the watch this morning. Assuming the Rover is still running 10-12 seconds fast per day, would this be justification for sending the watch back to be re-regulated. What is an acceptable +/- in seconds for the Rover. It is presented as undergoing such a lengthy regulation process, but in this case, it just doesn't match up. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject. Thanks in advance to those who reply.


First, +10 or 12 second per day may be perfectly fine for that movement. I'd suggest starting with the manufacturer's overall specs for the movement rather than the timing sheet you received with the watch. That will give you a starting point for what is normal or abnormal, i.e. within manufacturer tolerances, for that movement. For example, a Seiko 6r15 tolerances are -15/+25; +12 would be well within specs for that movement.

Second, it does not sound like it was magnetized. As understand that, if it were magnetized, the swing would be minutes per hour, not seconds per day.

Third, how consistent had the watch's generator been? I.e have you been active enough each day to maintain a reasonably high power reserve? Have you been hand winding? Resetting the time frequently? All of those things can effect how a mechanical watch keeps time. When timing a new watch, most would tell you make sure to start with a fully wound watch, set the time to a consistent source (such as the US atomic clock), and don't reset or hand wind for one full week. Check the time against the US Atomic clock once per day, 24 hour intervals. Divide the seconds per day deviation to the number of days completed during that week, and jot that down. Be active to make sure the spring is well above the minimum. Each night, rest the watch in the same position.

Last, be reasonable in your expectations. No mechanical watch will be perfectly consistent everyday. A lot depends on the wearer. In fact, most depends on how we wear the watch. Even a COSC watch can perform differently from day to day or person to person. A timing sheet is what the watch can do when all conditions are near perfect and consistent. We as humans are neither.

Hope that helps.


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> First, +10 or 12 second per day may be perfectly fine for that movement. I'd suggest starting with the manufacturer's overall specs for the movement rather than the timing sheet you received with the watch. That will give you a starting point for what is normal or abnormal, i.e. within manufacturer tolerances, for that movement. For example, a Seiko 6r15 tolerances are -15/+25; +12 would be well within specs for that movement.
> 
> Second, it does not sound like it was magnetized. As understand that, if it were magnetized, the swing would be minutes per hour, not seconds per day.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply! I only wound the watch once when I first put it on. I set it to the US Naval Observatory Time. I am fairly active and take the watch off at night. I tried laying it crystal up, crystal down, crown up and down and these seems to make no difference. I usually let the watch run for a week, so the 10-12 sec. fast is an average for the full week.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> First, +10 or 12 second per day may be perfectly fine for that movement. I'd suggest starting with the manufacturer's overall specs for the movement rather than the timing sheet you received with the watch. That will give you a starting point for what is normal or abnormal, i.e. within manufacturer tolerances, for that movement. For example, a Seiko 6r15 tolerances are -15/+25; +12 would be well within specs for that movement.


Ginault advertises their watches and being tested and adjusted to chronometer levels of accuracy over 6 weeks and, as noted, provide a test sheet to show those test results.



> Second, it does not sound like it was magnetized. As understand that, if it were magnetized, the swing would be minutes per hour, not seconds per day.


Not necessarily. Depends on how powerful of a magnetic field it's been exposed to and/or duration of exposure. Repeated/prolonged exposures to relatively weak magnetic fields can add up to the same effect as a single brief exposure to a strong field. I forget which channel (LI Watch maybe?), but I've seen a video demonstrating magnetism and watches and the presenter exposed a watch to a strong magnet for a few seconds and then put it back on the timegrapher and it had sped up only by ~20 spd (and subsequent de-mag resulted in it returning very close to where it was at when they started). Reduced exposure could potentially result in a watch that was running ~+1 spd to speed up to ~+12 spd. Not outside of the realm of possibility.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Eye Doc said:


> Thanks for your reply! I only wound the watch once when I first put it on. I set it to the US Naval Observatory Time. I am fairly active and take the watch off at night. I tried laying it crystal up, crystal down, crown up and down and these seems to make no difference. I usually let the watch run for a week, so the 10-12 sec. fast is an average for the full week.


Perfect, sounds like you did the right things. If it were me, I'd take the +12, and run it a few months to see if it settles down. +10, or even a little less over time, is very good for a mechanical ... unless you paid for COSC.

You may feel differently, and should do what ever makes you most satisfied with the watch. At the end of the day that's all that matters.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> Perfect, sounds like you did the right things. If it were me, I'd take the +12, and run it a few months to see if it settles down. +10, or even a little less over time, is very good for a mechanical ... unless you paid for COSC.
> 
> You may feel differently, and should do what ever makes you most satisfied with the watch. At the end of the day that's all that matters.


While not COSC (since Ginault isn't Swiss, they can't get COSC certifications), part of what you pay for with Ginault is that additional testing and adjustment (proven by 6-day accuracy test reports shipped with each watch) to receive a watch running within chronometer level accuracy. If you don't care about that, Ginault offers a model that doesn't have that extra testing and adjustment for ~60% the price.

@ Eye Doc

~+10 spd isn't terrible for an unadjusted movement, but it's not what was paid for. I'd first try demagnetizing it. If it's still not running close to what the Ginault test sheet said it was before they shipped it to you, you have a decision to make. You are will within your rights to go back to Ginault to have them re-adjust/regulate the watch. However, this may mean that you'll be without your watch for a while (there are reports of Ginault being rather slow to turn around repairs/warranty work, so it could be months) or you can decide to just live with decent but not chronometer-grade accuracy and enjoy your watch. There are plenty of watches out there at that price point that don't come with chronometer-grade movements and for which the accuracy you're seeing would be considered normal/typical


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Thanks Guys! I appreciate all the input. 
I think I'll run it a little longer and see how she does!


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

MX793 said:


> Ginault advertises their watches and being tested and adjusted to chronometer levels of accuracy over 6 weeks and, as noted, provide a test sheet to show those test results.


Well, when it comes to the issue of their movement and advertising claims, that seems to be little like taking religion or politics at Thanksgiving dinner. I'm not commenting on any of that.

It's not uncommon for new owners of any watch to test accuracy in ways that can actually exacerbate accuracy swings, or not take into account that even a COSC watch can and often will perform differently on different wearers. Mechanical watches have their own characteristics; getting to know those things is usually part of the enjoyment many of is get out of owning them. These are things I have learned over the years on these and other forums. This has nothing to do with Ginault. Just trying to help out the poster so he can enjoy his watch.



MX793 said:


> Not necessarily. Depends on how powerful of a magnetic field it's been exposed to and/or duration of exposure. Repeated/prolonged exposures to relatively weak magnetic fields can add up to the same effect as a single brief exposure to a strong field. I forget which channel (LI Watch maybe?), but I've seen a video demonstrating magnetism and watches and the presenter exposed a watch to a strong magnet for a few seconds and then put it back on the timegrapher and it had sped up only by ~20 spd (and subsequent de-mag resulted in it returning very close to where it was at when they started). Reduced exposure could potentially result in a watch that was running ~+1 spd to speed up to ~+12 spd. Not outside of the realm of possibility.


Anything is possible, of course. At the same time, there are many other factors that also can and do cause a watch to speed up or slow down a few seconds per day. As for timing, It is very possible that this watch simply has not perform on this individual as it was timed, under perfect conditions, in the few weeks he has owned it. It is possible the norm for this owner may be +10. Maybe on average and over several months it will run closer to what it was times at.

I don't think it hurts a watch to get it demagnetized, so maybe this will end up making a difference.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

nepatriot said:


> Perfect, sounds like you did the right things. If it were me, I'd take the +12, and run it a few months to see if it settles down. +10, or even a little less over time, is very good for a mechanical ... unless you paid for COSC.
> 
> You may feel differently, and should do what ever makes you most satisfied with the watch. At the end of the day that's all that matters.


I'd add to this that any watch will require a "settling in" period upon receipt, especially if it was shipped direct to the purchaser (as opposed to having been purchased in a bricks and mortar store), so nepatriot's advice to run it for a few months is spot on. EyeDoc, you'll find that over time the watch will settle into a consistent rate of gain or loss. The two most important factors here are that the watch is kept fully wound, or close to it, and that you wear it daily - what you're after is variance throughout the day and variance is affected positionally (lying flat dial up, lying flat dial down, on its side crown up, on its side crown down, etc.), so wearing it throughout the day *should* expose the movement to a range of positions and thus give you a far better idea of daily overall variance in time keeping. My Seiko MM300 runs right ~+1 second a day when worn on wrist and gains about 2.5 seconds a day when stored in my watchbox face up.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

PS I am positive that +10 seconds a day is not a sign of magnetization. Even "mild" magnetization would result in the movement gaining seconds an hour. Magnetization generally results in a watch gaining MINUTES an hour... As nepatriot notes, de-magging the watch is not going to harm anything, but I really think that you're barking up the wrong tree and that doing so will be a waste of time (pun intended!).


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Darwin said:


> PS I am positive that +10 seconds a day is not a sign of magnetization. Even "mild" magnetization would result in the movement gaining seconds an hour. Magnetization generally results in a watch gaining MINUTES an hour... As nepatriot notes, de-magging the watch is not going to harm anything, but I really think that you're barking up the wrong tree and that doing so will be a waste of time (pun intended!).







This watch only speeds up by ~20 spd after being briefly exposed to a powerful magnet. Again, it's all a function of field strength and exposure time, and magnetization can be a cumulative process (magnetic fields build up over time and repeated exposure).


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Darwin said:


> I'd add to this that any watch will require a "settling in" period upon receipt, especially if it was shipped direct to the purchaser (as opposed to having been purchased in a bricks and mortar store), so nepatriot's advice to run it for a few months is spot on. EyeDoc, you'll find that over time the watch will settle into a consistent rate of gain or loss. The two most important factors here are that the watch is kept fully wound, or close to it, and that you wear it daily - what you're after is variance throughout the day and variance is affected positionally (lying flat dial up, lying flat dial down, on its side crown up, on its side crown down, etc.), so wearing it throughout the day *should* expose the movement to a range of positions and thus give you a far better idea of daily overall variance in time keeping. My Seiko MM300 runs right ~+1 second a day when worn on wrist and gains about 2.5 seconds a day when stored in my watchbox face up.


Yes. Automatic watches are funny things. I used to get really frustrated with the accuracy (or lack thereof) the autos I owned. I don't get worked up at all anymore. If I wanted an extremely accurate watch I would buy a quartz. I just adjust my OR once a week and go on with life.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

MX793 said:


> While not COSC (since Ginault isn't Swiss, they can't get COSC certifications), part of what you pay for with Ginault is that additional testing and adjustment (proven by 6-day accuracy test reports shipped with each watch) to receive a watch running within chronometer level accuracy. If you don't care about that, Ginault offers a model that doesn't have that extra testing and adjustment for ~60% the price.


Of course its not COSC. If you paid for a COSC watch, that feature alone can cost almost as much as a Ginault watch.

Any watch can be regulated to as close as 0 as possible, so the value of COSC is often debated. Or dismissed as Swiss thing. Or marketing. Point is, if the poster had paid the premium for a COSC watch, which is regulated to within -4/+6, and it consistently performed at +12 over time, he would clearly not be receiving the value of what he paid for. He also would have paid a premium for the movement itself: generally there are premium versions of movements that can be COSC certified. I.e., I'd send it back.

At Ginault prices, I would expect, first, that it performs to within specs for the movement. I would guess those specs would be the claim for the non-regulated version you mentioned. You seem to know a lot about these... can you share the movement specs?

Second, I would take the timing sheet, and then allow for conditions and individual variables. I.e. the timing was done in stable conditions, but real life is not. If it were me, I would not expect that this watch in real life to always perform exactly to a timing sheet.

We don't know, unless I missed it, what the timing sheet for this watch stated. If that was +6, for example, then allowing for real world, then +10 may be reasonable. It may also settle down, as some movements do. I'd rather be a little fast out of the gate than slow, for that reason.

We can speculate all day long. Bottom line the poster should do what makes him feel good about the watch. We're all different in that regard, so there is no right or wrong answer.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Darwin said:


> I'd add to this that any watch will require a "settling in" period upon receipt, especially if it was shipped direct to the purchaser (as opposed to having been purchased in a bricks and mortar store), so nepatriot's advice to run it for a few months is spot on. EyeDoc, you'll find that over time the watch will settle into a consistent rate of gain or loss. The two most important factors here are that the watch is kept fully wound, or close to it, and that you wear it daily - what you're after is variance throughout the day and variance is affected positionally (lying flat dial up, lying flat dial down, on its side crown up, on its side crown down, etc.), so wearing it throughout the day *should* expose the movement to a range of positions and thus give you a far better idea of daily overall variance in time keeping. My Seiko MM300 runs right ~+1 second a day when worn on wrist and gains about 2.5 seconds a day when stored in my watchbox face up.


For a watch shipped with a movement that is not adjusted from the factory, yes, I'd agree. One should allow at least a month (I personally use 8 weeks) of constant run time to see if the watch settles in. While perhaps not true for every unadjusted watch, 2 of my 3 mechanical watches saw their accuracy change and settle after the first 7-8 weeks of run time. However, the Ginault is not shipped unadjusted from the factory. Ginault adjusts these movements and runs them for 6 weeks (I mispoke in previous posts when I said 6 days) and provides a test report with every watch indicating that it was running within chronometer specs prior to shipment. This "test and tune" activity happens after the movement has been cased, so there should be no inaccuracies as a result of the casing of the movement. There should be no run-in or break-in period with these watches. That would have already happened during the testing and adjustment period at the factory before they ship. They should be running very close to the values listed on the test report sheet out of the box.

From Ginault's webpage:

https://ginault.com/caliber-7275/



> Once a completed Caliber 7275 is encased in the watch, it will then go through a 6 weeks journey on our automatic winder to simulate real world use. Our watchmakers time each one of them every 7 days, then give each one of them a slight tweak if necessary to make the caliber to run even more accurately until it reaches as close as to 0 in the end of the journey. The mark "X" means the "average daily rate". The Swiss COSC standard of this particular measurement is +6 / -4.We keep each measurement log in an excel file. When a Ginault timepiece is sold, we will provide you a copy of the measurement log with the caliber's serial number, the actual power reserve tested, and the last measurement date printed on the copy.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> Of course its not COSC. If you paid for a COSC watch, that feature alone can cost almost as much as a Ginault watch.
> 
> Any watch can be regulated to as close as 0 as possible, so the value of COSC is often debated. Or dismissed as Swiss thing. Or marketing. Point is, if the poster had paid the premium for a COSC watch, which is regulated to within -4/+6, and it consistently performed at +12 over time, he would clearly not be receiving the value of what he paid for. He also would have paid a premium for the movement itself: generally there are premium versions of movements that can be COSC certified. I.e., I'd send it back.
> 
> ...


There are a number of COSC-certified watches priced similar to what Ginault sells their chronometer grade model for. Christopher Ward offers a couple of COSC models for ~ $1000 (using off-the-shelf movements as opposed to their more expensive in-house movement, but even those are still under $2K). Tissot sells a few COSC certified watches for a little under a grand.

See my previous post regarding the adjustment these watches go through.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

rosborn said:


> Yes. Automatic watches are funny things. I used to get really frustrated with the accuracy (or lack thereof) the autos I owned. I don't get worked up at all anymore. If I wanted an extremely accurate watch I would buy a quartz. I just adjust my OR once a week and go on with life.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Spot on, and spoken like a guy who's been to this rodeo a few times!

If I need that kind of accuracy, I look at my cell phone.

I've got a couple of ETA's that, just for grins, I like to try to keep to a certain number over a week or so by keeping it wound up (i.e. me active vs. meetings dinner and airplane seats), and resting position at night.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Opps double post


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Eye Doc said:


> I would like some input from the forum members. My Ocean Rover is three weeks old and has been running 10 to 12 seconds fast per day. The final 6 week regulation provided from Ginault showed 1 second fast per day. Just for the heck of it, I demagnetized the watch this morning. Assuming the Rover is still running 10-12 seconds fast per day, would this be justification for sending the watch back to be re-regulated. What is an acceptable +/- in seconds for the Rover. It is presented as undergoing such a lengthy regulation process, but in this case, it just doesn't match up. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject. Thanks in advance to those who reply.


This is the last couple of weeks of measurements for my OR purchased in July 2017. It tends to run a few sec/day fast at rest, dial up and slows a little when worn. It's running virtually the same today as when I received it.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Eye Doc said:


> Thanks Guys! I appreciate all the input.
> I think I'll run it a little longer and see how she does!


If you do send it in its 6-8 weeks to get it back. Mine was running 15-30 spd in spite of my sheet stating it was at 0.0. My crown was real hard to pull out too and since I had to keep resetting it I send it in. Of course John says it's keeping much better time on the machine. Oh well as long as the crown is fixed it is what it is.


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

MX793 said:


> For a watch shipped with a movement that is not adjusted from the factory, yes, I'd agree. One should allow at least a month (I personally use 8 weeks) of constant run time to see if the watch settles in. While perhaps not true for every unadjusted watch, 2 of my 3 mechanical watches saw their accuracy change and settle after the first 7-8 weeks of run time. However, the Ginault is not shipped unadjusted from the factory. Ginault adjusts these movements and runs them for 6 weeks (I mispoke in previous posts when I said 6 days) and provides a test report with every watch indicating that it was running within chronometer specs prior to shipment. This "test and tune" activity happens after the movement has been cased, so there should be no inaccuracies as a result of the casing of the movement. There should be no run-in or break-in period with these watches. That would have already happened during the testing and adjustment period at the factory before they ship. They should be running very close to the values listed on the test report sheet out of the box.
> 
> From Ginault's webpage:
> 
> ...


Right here is the difference between the testing and reality for the poster. The watch is regulated in six positions while spending the rest of the time on a winder. In poster's reality, the watch is spending likely eight hours immobile.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

MX793 said:


> There are a number of COSC-certified watches priced similar to what Ginault sells their chronometer grade model for. Christopher Ward offers a couple of COSC models for ~ $1000 (using off-the-shelf movements as opposed to their more expensive in-house movement, but still under $2K). Tissot sells a few COSC certified watches for a little under a grand.
> 
> See my previous post regarding the adjustment these watches go through.


I'm not sure if you are getting defensive, or simply want to debate. I'm not knocking your watch in any way, and I'm not interested in splitting hairs.

I'll end with two points.

First, I did see your description of how these watches are regulated, but that is already known. But by stating that, I figure you don't know what COSC testing entails, but also figured pointing that out that could lead down a rabbit hole that would be of no value to the poster. Suffice to say that COSC takes some real life variables into consideration (or more accurately takes out), but at the end of the day its still a controlled environment, so as the saying goes, "your results may vary". Ginault may do the same thing; if so they don't seem to mentioned it.

Net-net, irrelevant: real world performance for both will be equally effected by real life variables.

Second, several watches I considered purchasing not too long ago had a COSC options; those options cost well over $600. That does not factor in the base movement value, but that's another rabbit hole, and completely irrelevant here. FWIW, I personally would not pay a premium for COSC. That's just me.

Again, all that is pointless because this is and never has been a COSC vs something else discussion.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Jtragic said:


> Right here is the difference between the testing and reality for the poster. The watch is regulated in six positions while spending the rest of the time on a winder. In poster's reality, the watch is spending likely eight hours immobile.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Very true. And depending on how wound up the watch is when put down, the watch's performance can vary. This will compound over successive days. I've got a few auto's that can vary by 6 - 7 seconds per day between weeks of steady and high activity and weeks where I spend most of my days sitting on my behind.

It took me a while to learn that; once I did, I found I enjoyed my watches more.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

nepatriot said:


> I'm not sure if you are getting defensive, simply want to debate. I'm not knocking your watch in any way, and I'm not interested in splitting hairs.
> 
> I'll end with two points.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of your points. I have owned one COSC watch - a Sinn UX. It was a fantastic watch and extremely accurate...but so was the Luminox (both quartz movements) at 1/4 to 1/3 the price. I have read complaints about the accuracy of actual COSC movements and our Ginault movement ain't COSC. That is why I take ALL manufacturer statements regarding accuracy with a large grain of salt...I don't lose sleep over it...I don't worry one iota about it. I DO adjust my watch when it needs adjusting...usually it is somewhere within two minutes of the actual time. Ain't nuthin' in my life that is that time sensitive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## StephenCanale (Mar 24, 2016)

Keep in mind there's official "COSC Certification" which by definition is going to cost more, and there's the COSC level of performance, which is often referred to, and which many watches achieve.... but without having the movements submitted, tested and certified.

Forgetting the Certification (piece of paper) there's no reason a watch in this price range cannot obtain reasonable performance in today's market.

While you do pretty much need Quartz (with some variants) to guarantee near-perfect performance, it's not at all uncommon to find watches well under 2K that will stay within a few seconds of zero, day in and day out.

But, since performance of mechanical watches is really an average of all positions, a lot of real world results will be skewed by how often they are worn, and how they are positioned when they are not.

Two owners of the exact same watch, with the exact same timing in each position can see different results simply based on how they wear their watch, for how long it rests each night and in what position.

If Adam is a desk worker and takes his watch off immediately upon returning home from work and stores it Dial Up while Zack is a UPS driver and only removes his when going to bed and stores it Crown Up they will almost certainly report back to us with very different results, and impressions of the movement's accuracy as well.

Myself, I store my watches on a winder, which not only keeps them fully wound (where mechanical watches deliver better accuracy) but this also randomly changes the resting position, thus helping to average out the positional differences.

This is why the timing apps that track daily rates aren't particularly useful for comparisons. They're handy and interesting to give you an idea of the results that you are receiving, but they are entirely meaningless in comparison to others.

Only testing in all 6 positions, using a decent timegrapher in a manner consistent with others is going to be in any way useful for collecting data and making comparisons. For example, testing at full wind -1 hour and again at -24 hours is a commonly used method for assessing overall performance. Purple Hayz has amassed a strong collection of data on this for us all.

As for myself, I have a number of watches ranging from $300 to $1,500 that are under 4 seconds a day. But, in addition to owning Rolex, Tudor and Omega, I also tend to buy used, gray market or out of favor watches that offer a lot of bang for the buck so you really can't put price range on performance of the movement.

In the end, there are plenty of people walking around with $5K plus mechanical watches that are more jewelry than they are great watches. Conversely, there are just as many (well, more probably) with $500 mechanical watches that aren't much in terms of jewelry, but that are really good at keeping time.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> I'm not sure if you are getting defensive, simply want to debate. I'm not knocking your watch in any way, and I'm not interested in splitting hairs.
> 
> I'll end with two points.
> 
> ...


Certainly I would expect the watch to perform a little differently on the wrist than in the lab. Hence why I said it should run "close" to what the delivered test sheet says. Also, if the watch if fully wound and left in a given position (say, face up) overnight for 8 or so hours, I would expect the time gained or lost to be very close to the rate that the test sheet reported for that position. So if the Ginault test sheet says +3 spd face up, I'd expect the watch to have gained somewhere between 0 and 2 seconds when left face up overnight after a full wind. Given that these have 40+ power reserves, you're still well above 50% wound after 8 hours and should not be seeing significant levels of power reserve-related isochronism.



> Second, several watches I considered purchasing not too long ago had a COSC options; those options cost well over $600. That does not factor in the base movement value, but that's another rabbit hole, and completely irrelevant here. FWIW, I personally would not pay a premium for COSC. That's just me.
> 
> Again, all that is pointless because this and never has been a COSC vs something else discussion.


I'll assume you mean $600 more than the same watch without certification? Depends very much on the manufacturer. A Tissot PR 100 COSC has a $950 RRP. The non-COSC version has an RRP of $625. Price difference is similar for their other COSC models in the $900-$1100 range versus non-COSC versions ($325-ish more for COSC). A CW Trident C60 COSC on bracelet is $1100 and the non-COSC on bracelet is $830 ($270 difference). The original Ginault OR (chronometer tuned) is $1300. The new, non-chronometer tuned version is $700. Of note, the new "affordable" model has a few other areas where costs were reduced (doesn't come on bracelet, painted indices instead of applied), so not all of that $600 price difference is in the adjustment of the movement on the chronometer tuned version. Also, the non-chronometer tuned version just came out, so there was no option of chronometer-tuned vs not with Ginault until this month.

The value to COSC certification is up to the individual. I'm with you in that I don't really care that much and wouldn't pay extra for it if there was a non-COSC version available. Most unadjusted movements will perform good enough out of the box for what I want and if not, can be inexpensively regulated to be better. Up to Eye Doc as to whether to go back to Ginault about the accuracy or not. I'd probably leave well enough alone if it stays steady at +10-12 spd. If I intentionally bought that watch over another based on that chronometer tuning, though, I'd expect what I paid for.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Hi guys

I've completed the dual AR coating mod of my ocean rover.

Full pics here:

Ginault Ocean Rover, No Date, BGW9 - dual AR crystal upgrade (pic heavy)
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-ocean-rover-no-date-bgw9-dual-ar-crystal-upgrade-pic-heavy-4669441.html


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

My wife said to me the other evening after telling me how happy her work colleague was with her house, "it must be wonderful to be completely happy with your house" and i said "well that's easy, just stop looking for things wrong with yours".

I don't worry about exact timing as it's just a wrist watch, but that's me, other folks take it more seriously.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

59er said:


> My wife said to me the other evening after telling me how happy her work colleague was with her house, "it must be wonderful to be completely happy with your house" and i said "well that's easy, just stop looking for things wrong with yours".
> 
> I don't worry about exact timing as it's just a wrist watch, but that's me, other folks take it more seriously.


Good point. I'm a Seiko fan, but even I must admit that if you bought a $2,000 MM300 and reported it was running +10 SPD, most would comment you got a good one.

You could almost comment the worst thing Ginault did was include the timing adjustment sheet for the watches. It inherently makes us all want to see just how close our performance is to the reported accuracy. Of course, none of us factor in the reality that those adjustments were made over 6 weeks in a controlled environment (constant temp, minimal movement, etc.). Any mechanical watch movement will be effected by temperature changes, not to mention common daily bumps and swings as go about our day.

It is a bit analogous to the delivery debate earlier. Better to under promise and over deliver.


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## SuperOrbital (Sep 21, 2017)

I recall stumbling upon these some time ago and thinking $1000+ was huge money for an _homage_ watch. After forgetting, then stumbling back upon it here I do quite like it. The dial is a little cheesy with the text frankly, but I love the old 16610 case and I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to pay ~5-6K for it.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

SuperOrbital said:


> I recall stumbling upon these some time ago and thinking $1000+ was huge money for an _homage_ watch. After forgetting, then stumbling back upon it here I do quite like it. The dial is a little cheesy with the text frankly, but I love the old 16610 case and I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to pay ~5-6K for it.


I'm test driving one of their new models with the flat black / gilt dial. This new dial has a nice dial layout with logo and brand name above the handset and depth rating and model name under. All the extra text has been deleted.

I'll post a review later this week, but the TL/DR summary is I like it quite a bit.


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## SuperOrbital (Sep 21, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm test driving one of their new models with the flat black / gilt dial. This new dial has a nice dial layout with logo and brand name above the handset and depth rating and model name under. All the extra text has been deleted.
> 
> I'll post a review later this week, but the TL/DR summary is I like it quite a bit.
> 
> View attachment 13009081


Not a fan of gilt. Give me that dial without gilt, with a date (no cyclops), on a black bezel in BGW9 lume and I'm real sold.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

SuperOrbital said:


> Not a fan of gilt. Give me that dial without gilt, with a date (no cyclops), on a black bezel in BGW9 lume and I'm real sold.


Take the date off... ;-)


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

SuperOrbital said:


> I recall stumbling upon these some time ago and thinking $1000+ was huge money for an _homage_ watch. After forgetting, then stumbling back upon it here I do quite like it. The dial is a little cheesy with the text frankly, but I love the old 16610 case and I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to pay ~5-6K for it.


The original price was much more reasonable, and in line with other homages. I haven't paid much attention to sub homages... what happened to the Squale 1545, the Davosa, or Stienhart? They were around the same price as the Ginault's original price. Maybe those others have gone away?


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## SuperOrbital (Sep 21, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> The original price was much more reasonable, and in line with other homages. I haven't paid much attention to sub homages... what happened to the Squale 1545, the Davosa, or Stienhart? They were around the same price as the Ginault's original price. Maybe those others have gone away?


I like this far more than any other I've seen. The sword hands are preferable to the weirdly proportioned Mercedes hands of the Steinhart for instance.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

SuperOrbital said:


> I like this far more than any other I've seen. The sword hands are preferable to the weirdly proportioned Mercedes hands of the Steinhart for instance.


I agree, the Ginault is arguable one of the best homages as far as looks. And after all, isn't that the main proposition when buying a homage? The only strike against it is the cost.

But they can charge what ever the market will bear. As a start up, from a marketing perspective, they seem to have achieved one of most critical steps, using one of the most challenging and dangerous tactics: a large price increase. It's hard because start ups often start low to attract consumers, but what ever you start at, you essentially establish that as the price. Consumers more often than not don't take kindly to the attempt to re-estabish the baseline.

These guys did it by trying to create a perception of a higher base, then discount by 50% to get trial, in return for consumer reviews. While this is a common practice, still, no matter what method you choose, it is always a very challenging move - taking the price increase - to actually pull off. These are the shoals that are littered with the wreckage of start up's. But it seems that some customers have come back to the trough and bought at the new price, and their fierce loyalty is attracting new consumers to pay full price. This is a very positive milestone for their business plan.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

nepatriot said:


> I agree, the Ginault is arguable one of the best homages as far as looks. And after all, isn't that the main proposition when buying a homage? The only strike against it is the cost.
> 
> But they can charge what ever the market will bear. As a start up, from a marketing perspective, they seem to have achieved one of most critical steps, using one of the most challenging and dangerous tactics: a large price increase. It's hard because start ups often start low to attract consumers, but what ever you start at, you essentially establish that as the price. Consumers more often than not don't take kindly to the attempt to re-estabish the baseline.
> 
> These guys did it by trying to create a perception of a higher base, then discount by 50% to get trial, in return for consumer reviews. While this is a common practice, still, no matter what method you choose, it is always a very challenging move - taking the price increase - to actually pull off. These are the shoals that are littered with the wreckage of start up's. But it seems that some customers have come back to the trough and bought at the new price, and their fierce loyalty is attracting new consumers to pay full price. This is a very positive milestone for their business plan.


I agree. This is the crux of the challenge. I think Ginault has done a smart thing also by introducing a lower price variant of the Ocean Rover (the version I am test driving) with a reduced feature set and a lower price. As they slowly raise their premium product price, they continue to offer an entry level product so people can "buy into" the brand. Some of the currently suffering Swiss luxury brands could take a lesson.

As for the initial marketing strategy of giving a discount for a review, I know it was controversial, but I actually endorsed it. I thought Ginault's publication of the discount for review policy (without requiring any pre-posting approval, or editing oversight, or even requiring the review had to be a positive) was a pretty confident move.

The reality is we are always seeing endorsements by "professionals" on various products, and they don't normally announce the endorsement is part of their business plan. If some watch blog, for instance, trashes a sample watch from some vendor, there is a solid chance the vendor will cross that blogger off their list. If the blogger stops getting sample watches to review, before long their blog traffic goes down, impacting advertising, etc.

I really appreciated seeing the reviews written by "novice" reviewers. Some of the reviews were way more detailed than anything I typically see on the watch blogs, with component disassembly and direct comparisons to authentic 5 digit Rolex Subs or other comparable watches costing multiple times as much (MKii Kingston, Nassau, etc.).

I'm still hoping for a future version with a fully indexed bezel, drilled lugs, and only 2 lines of text as in their lower cost model.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Ginault is doing fine. Sure, we are seeing growing pains but nothing that any other young company hasn’t experienced. Heck, TAG Heuer went through a dfective crown tube issue, that they failed to acknowledge for the longest time, and they’ve been around FOREVER. It happens.

I have never had an issue with anything Ginault has done marketing-wise or otherwise. If I had I wouldn’t have purchased an Ocean Rover, new or pre-owned.

I am just impatiently waiting for an original design or an Explorer/Aqua Terra homage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

cwfmon said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I've completed the dual AR coating mod of my ocean rover.
> 
> ...


That looks awesome!!
I have been eagerly waiting to see how your 2xAR crystal came out.

Here is mine, just fitted today:















I used a "B25-295" flat sapphire (for Rolex)with 2xAR. I got this crystal from a UK supplier (which is great for me).

The effect is awesome, at most angles the crystal just isn't there at all! The raised indices on enamelled dial was a Ginault selling point for me. Now the dial really pops!

Interestingly that's the original Ocean Rover domed sapphire on a 36mm 369 dialled explorer project of mine and it looks awesome on that!! - but you can see the light reflection in comparison to the new 2x AR crystal.

I will post a review after a bit if wearing it but I love it so far.

edit: this is the BGW9 lume with aftermarket maxi merc hands and drilled lugs. Here are some more photos:


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> I really appreciated seeing the reviews written by "novice" reviewers. Some of the reviews were way more detailed than anything I typically see on the watch blogs.


This is what convinced me to buy one.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

nepatriot said:


> The original price was much more reasonable, and in line with other homages. I haven't paid much attention to sub homages... what happened to the Squale 1545, the Davosa, or Stienhart? They were around the same price as the Ginault's original price. Maybe those others have gone away?


The Squale 20 and 30 Atmos, the Davosa Ternos and the Steinhart are still around and doing well. I own the Squale 20 and 30 Atmos and the Davosa Ternos, and I also own the Ginault. I would have to say that I like my Davosa and Squale better than the Ginault. I got on the bandwagon with all the hype from these threads and I just can't see what the hype is all about. I'm not bashing the Ginault in any way as it is a great, well made watch. To me, in the hand and on the wrist, the Davosa and Squale just feel better and more substantial. This is just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me about it.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

drttown said:


> The Squale 20 and 30 Atmos, the Davosa Ternos and the Steinhart are still around and doing well. I own the Squale 20 and 30 Atmos and the Davosa Ternos, and I also own the Ginault. I would have to say that I like my Davosa and Squale better than the Ginault. I got on the bandwagon with all the hype from these threads and I just can't see what the hype is all about. I'm not bashing the Ginault in any way as it is a great, well made watch. To me, in the hand and on the wrist, the Davosa and Squale just feel better and more substantial. This is just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with me about it.


Well, I cannot see why people would not be fine with your opinion. All of us have different tastes, expectations and preferences...

It would be awful if Ginault were the world's #1 preferred watch brand.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

G4_Chrono said:


> That looks awesome!!
> I have been eagerly waiting to see how your 2xAR crystal came out.
> 
> Here is mine, just fitted today:
> ...


Mate, it looks awesome. Congrats!. You probably saved some time and money by going with an aftermarket flat sapphire...so good on you. The side-by-side pic is the very convincing that this mod takes this watch to another level. Such a clean dial needs to be shown off! Rolex does well by using a flat sapphire that gives the ice/bling effect (full reflection) at some angles and very clear at others. The domed sapphire is a great touch by Ginault but it killed beauty of the dial.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

G4_Chrono said:


> That looks awesome!!
> I have been eagerly waiting to see how your 2xAR crystal came out.
> 
> Here is mine, just fitted today:
> ...


Mate, it looks awesome. Congrats!. You probably saved some time and money by going with an aftermarket flat sapphire...so good on you. The side-by-side pic is the very convincing that this mod takes this watch to another level. Such a clean dial needs to be shown off! Rolex does well by using a flat sapphire that gives the ice/bling effect (full reflection) at some angles and very clear at others. The domed sapphire is a great touch by Ginault but it killed beauty of the dial.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

cwfmon said:


> Mate, it looks awesome. Congrats!. You probably saved some time and money by going with an aftermarket flat sapphire...so good on you. The side-by-side pic is the very convincing that this mod takes this watch to another level. Such a clean dial needs to be shown off! Rolex does well by using a flat sapphire that gives the ice/bling effect (full reflection) at some angles and very clear at others. The domed sapphire is a great touch by Ginault but it killed beauty of the dial.


Good things come to those who wait! I am really looking forward to seeing more photos of your domed sapphire with the AR


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> That looks awesome!!
> I have been eagerly waiting to see how your 2xAR crystal came out.
> 
> Here is mine, just fitted today:
> ...


How / who drilled the lugs and how was it done?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Sun Rover.


----------



## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Driving Rover


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Calling Rover


----------



## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Orange Rover


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Green Rover


----------



## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

WTF was I thinking Rover


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

JohnBPittsburgh said:


> WTF was I thinking Rover
> View attachment 13021781


That's a "special" combination. :-O


----------



## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

New Rover

Took just over a month from order placed to in hand. Did the casebacks always come engraved around the polished part or is this new. Seems like all the ones I've seen have CP and some numbers. Mine is nicely engraved.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GMArthur said:


> New Rover
> 
> Took just over a month from order placed to in hand. Did the casebacks always come engraved around the polished part or is this new. Seems like all the ones I've seen have CP and some numbers. Mine is nicely engraved.


Congratulations and enjoy it!

My caseback is also engraved (with serial number or similar) around the center/polished part.


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Nice to see that options are coming without all the nonsense text on the dial. I probably would have bought one a few months ago if that was available.


----------



## rhstranger2772 (Oct 19, 2009)

Picked mine up second hand. Controversy aside, it's a really well made watch and a heck of a value proposition.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

MarkGT900 said:


> I am not sure if anyone had the same trouble I had with the bracelet. I love the glidelock however I think there is some tolerance at play. If you put too much lateral force on either side it stops gliding.
> But after a few drops of wax based dry lube, it glides and locks down really nicely. Try it, it will change the whole glideability, if that's a word
> View attachment 12976943


Thanks! Tried that today and makes a BIG difference.


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

For anyone interested, I posted my thoughts on the new model here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/impressions-pics-new-ginault-ocean-rover-185066c1lvd-4676371.html


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Congratulations and enjoy it!
> 
> My caseback is also engraved (with serial number or similar) around the center/polished part.


I got an email on April 5th that my watch was shipping...I went to track it and it shows that "pre-ship info sent to USPS" on March 29...when I go to track it it shows "Your package is on its way to a USPS facility." Hahahaha.....Its now been 3-weeks so maybe next week. In the interim, I sold two watches and bought another one...LOL....can't wait for it to get here....


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Park Rover


----------



## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Fist time I've out the Ocean Rover on a nato. Never liked nato's as I have a small wrist (6.75 inches) and didn't like all the bulk of the strap turned back onto itself. So decided to cut a cheap one to length so there was just enough left to tuck into the second keeper. Really like the look now! Nice change in style for the watch too.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Some lume shots . .

I have the BGW9 lume with aftermarket 'blue lume' Mercedes hands.








The following photos show how the BGW9 lume changes from greenish to blue.

After 60 second charge over lightbulb:








After 15 mins in the dark:














After 20 mins in the dark:








And so it glows all night. . Cheers all.


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)




----------



## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

Looks amazing, that dial pops!!!!!!!!


----------



## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

G4_Chrono said:


> That looks awesome!!
> I have been eagerly waiting to see how your 2xAR crystal came out.
> 
> Here is mine, just fitted today:
> ...


Great job replacing the crystal.....that double AR looks awesome!!!!!! Really shows off the beauty of the dial.


----------



## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Let the fun begin....


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

LARufCTR said:


> Let the fun begin....


Enough of suspense?

Let us see what you got there


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

OK, watch arrived today. It has a new Movt. New Card. I was not told what the issue was, but no big deal (I did ask).

TD


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

TonyDennison said:


> OK, watch arrived today. It has a new Movt. New Card. I was not told what the issue was, but no big deal (I did ask).
> 
> TD


TD,

I truly hope all goes well with this one.

- the geologist

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> OK, watch arrived today. It has a new Movt. New Card. I was not told what the issue was, but no big deal (I did ask).
> 
> TD


Finally! Let's hope that the waiting has been worth. Keep us posted.


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> OK, watch arrived today. It has a new Movt. New Card. I was not told what the issue was, but no big deal (I did ask).
> 
> TD


Would have been nice to know what the problem was!! Hope this one is a winner. Good luck Tony!


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

to Geo,

Me too. I doubt I could get struck twice....right?

TD


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

to Garbonzo

Yup thanks


----------



## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

eyedoc,

I think they declined to answer because they dont want rumors or hypochondriacs. 

OH CRAP !!!! ITS RUNNING BACKWARDS NOW !!!!!!

Just kidding


----------



## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> Let the fun begin....


Well first and foremost I have to say I am very glad I bought new instead of waiting for a 2nd hand one. The care and attention to detail in how the watch is prepared for shipping I think really sets the stage to define who built your watch. No less than 7 pieces of protective "film" cover the entire watch. (I left the one on the clasp as I don't plan to keep the bracelet on for long) Nothing is exposed to a possible scratch. Then its wrapped in the bubble wrap.

I've now sized it and was totally impressed w/the quality of the bracelet. I do think whomever said to put a little wax in the slide adjustment is spot on as its a little sticky...but heck that's for fine adjustment and not everyday use. Anyway, I'm looking forward to wearing it and seeing how it runs. I bought this as a beater, which seems to be a harsh word for such a lovely piece....but it will be my daily for a while and I'm going to circle back w/some thoughts and observations as I get to know the piece...for now, I'm just very impressed w/the quality and craftsmanship I see at first blush...its a lot of watch for the $$.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Here are more pics of my dual AR ocean rover


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

cwfmon said:


> Here are more pics of my dual AR ocean rover


That looks great! I'm sorry I missed it but did you do that yourself?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I can say already how I can see the use for the dual AR on the OR in low light or office light conditions. It much easier to see my SKX007 non-AR Hardlex than the OR crystal. I think the Seiko and my Squale 1521 had best crystal for no glare (I know the Seiko isn't a crystal). I'm wondering if its because the 007 has a flat crystal.....My Blancpain had dual AR...never any glare issues. I'm outside most of tomorrow, so I'll to see how OR works in full daylight.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I'm wondering if its because the 007 has a flat crystal.....


That's ny assumption as well. Would love to hear what others think/know.


----------



## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

Just got this in today





You can see how different lighting will make the sand lume show up differently in pictures. Lovely.


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## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> Here are more pics of my dual AR ocean rover


Absolutely stunning mate.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Here's a good shot to show how well this watch fits under shirt & jacket. Its not a thin watch @ 14mm in height...but wears like a 10-11mm. Its a very comfortable piece to wear and I adjusted the bracelet probably 3 times today based on where I was (valley hot/beach cool)...so the ratcheting clasp is very useful....much more than I initially thought...in fact, I'm thinking of putting this on leather strap and I may get another clasp to do that. I will say I had it outside all day today and I got a lot of reflection off the crystal...and the other thing that's a bit annoying is the mice type at the bottom constantly looks like a smudge to me...and that's with my glasses on...its blurry...otherwise, its keeping spot on time and looking very smart.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

@cwfmon - great to see your Ginault with 2xAR is back and looking fantastic. I would love to see a profile shot that shows how the shoulders of the dome look now.

Here is my Ocean Rover with the flat sapphire and 2xAR coating:
















And one one I posted before showing a comparison of the 2xAR with the original ocean rover dome sapphire fitted to an explorer type case:















I absolutely love this mod, it does the superb Ginault dial justice.


----------



## ginny027 (Apr 21, 2014)

G4_Chrono said:


> @cwfmon - great to see your Ginault with 2xAR is back and looking fantastic. I would love to see a profile shot that shows how the shoulders of the dome look now.
> 
> Here is my Ocean Rover with the flat sapphire and 2xAR coating:
> View attachment 13054191
> ...


Any chance of a profile shot of yours G4? Would be interested in seeing how it looks with a flat crystal.

I've just ordered a few varieties of acrylics, to see if anything can be done for a nice vintage vibe. My Ginault isn't looking very original right now...

Will post results if anything works!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Time for pics!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## Bask7 (Jan 6, 2017)

Spikedlee said:


> Just got this in today
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice pick up, it looks vintage and the cyclops also looks awesome


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## Gfxdaddy (Jul 9, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Ginault Yacht Rover ;P


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

My second round with an Ocean Rover. I sold my first, which I immediately knew was a mistake, so I bought a second with this month's sale pricing. Actually I bought two this time around. I received my 181070GSLN about two weeks ago, and it hasn't left my wrist.

Here it is on a phenomenato:










I also have a 185066C1LRD aka 'Iron Man' inbound, which I'm very excited to receive. Expected delivery is ~2weeks.


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Desk Rover today.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Second Rover, I just could not resist having the date version as well. This time picked up the sand lume version.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

How is this not a labor of love.

Crown guard shaping, 100% work of true craftsman.


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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)




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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Loving my 181070LSILN....but I have to say, because this watch comes with the white lume (smurf blue) it should have come w/a black nato instead of the beige....which does match the sand gold lume beautifully. I want to get this off the bracelet so now I have to order something...!!!...likely go with leather now...or maybe perlon. You guys will know


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> it should have come w/a black nato instead of the beige...


Agree!


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Agreed + 1 this classic Sub design is dressy enough for a formal occasion if you swap on some nice leather straps and at the same time it is sporty enough for a casual weekend. A true iconic design.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Simply fascinated by the quality of the high-gloss enamel dial and the applied indices.









Sorry for the reflection.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Personally I think the Ocean Rover has the most beautifully crafted mid-case second to Rolex.

Crown guard, edge chamfering all follow true Rolex purist's standard.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Quick side-by-side with the new Helson SM300 homage.

For having AR, that Helson dome and glossier dial is much more reflective than the Ginault's flat sapphire.


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> View attachment 13067679
> 
> 
> Quick side-by-side with the new Helson SM300 homage.
> ...


That new Helson is a super cool watch. Thanks for the photo.

I don't if you've shared yet, but what are your thoughts on the new matte dial OR? I checked out some YouTube review on the green bezel variant and for the most part it seems the audience is underwhelmed by it. Do you share the majority vote?

I have the red bezel variant incoming and I'm curious to see how I'll feel about it.


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

Looks great! I really like the black datewheel with the black dial. I feel this combination is much cleaner looking than the white datewheel on the Sub and lots of other watches.



MarkGT900 said:


> Second Rover, I just could not resist having the date version as well. This time picked up the sand lume version.
> 
> View attachment 13065761


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

WJG16 said:


> Looks great! I really like the black datewheel with the black dial. I feel this combination is much cleaner looking than the white datewheel on the Sub and lots of other watches.


The white on black date works well with this no cyclops crystal indeed. I just can't speak/praise enough about the beauty and craftsmanship of the dial/indices and that Rolex quality lume pip contrusction. These details all shows the makers of the Ocean Rover are SUPER OCDed down to the tiniest aspect.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

MarkGT900 said:


> Personally I think the Ocean Rover has the most beautifully crafted mid-case second to Rolex.
> 
> Crown guard, edge chamfering all follow true Rolex purist's standard.
> 
> View attachment 13067583


Midcase is really lovely....but I have to say the ends of my lugs are actually sharp. They come to a point and I think could be used as a weapon if you pulled off the bracelet...!!!!....no seriously, they are that sharp.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> Midcase is really lovely....but I have to say the ends of my lugs are actually sharp. They come to a point and I think could be used as a weapon if you pulled off the bracelet...!!!!....no seriously, they are that sharp.




I also had this impression when I first received the watch. It took me some time to get (somehow) used to it. Sometimes I still feel it, but it does not bother me anymore.


----------



## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

So I purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover (glowing smurfs--no date) second hand for a pretty good deal. I wanted to get my hands on one and figured I would wait til I could grab a used one. I've had it for roughly a week and I am damn impressed. The bezel action, crown action, and detail are impeccable. I read the reviews and hyperbole that Ginault had on their own website and didn't think it would live up to the hype. I still don't love the marketing pitch from Ginault, but that doesn't matter to me..it's an amazing watch.

I have a pretty modest collection, all of the same style (divers) and my premiere piece is an Omega SMPC. This honestly punches about the same weight as that piece. The dual AR on the Omega make the dial and hands shine and that's my biggest complaint with the Ginault. I HATE the crystal used. I love a good flat crystal and one that has at least an inner layer of AR. The current crystal on the watch makes the dial foggy in most lights. The detail and enamel on the dial/hands is a detail that Ginault excelled at and it's clouded (pun intended) by the foggy crystal. After seeing some mods by G4_Chrono and cwfmon I purchased a flat, dual AR, from the same vendor G4_chrono used. I plan on having that modded once I receive it. I think it will make the deep black enamel of the dial pop, similar to the Omega SMPC (due to the dual AR).

The bracelet is insanely comfortable. I have the adjustable clasp on the Omega and the Tisell and love that feature of the watch. This adjustable clasp absolutely blows away the Tisell...however...

One of my biggest gripes with the watch is that I can't line the clasp up to be centered. If I take one more link out it would be centered but could only be worn with the clasp fully expanded. This would leave no wiggle room for me on the days where my wrist is chunkier. I would love to see if anyone has a solution for this but I still love the watch regardless. I initially wish it had the mercedes hand but have grown to like the sword hands.

When I get the crystal done I think I am going to change the seconds hand out to a white one though.

All in all, if you are on the fence I would check it out. It's probably worth the full price tag but I doubt you'll have to pay that. I also wish they made the warranty transferrable. I understand why they didn't but think it's fair to make the 1 year warranty transferrable.


----------



## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> The dual AR on the Omega make the dial and hands shine and that's my biggest complaint with the Ginault. I HATE the crystal used. I love a good flat crystal and one that has at least an inner layer of AR. The current crystal on the watch makes the dial foggy in most lights. The detail and enamel on the dial/hands is a detail that Ginault excelled at and it's clouded (pun intended) by the foggy crystal. After seeing some mods by G4_Chrono and cwfmon I purchased a flat, dual AR, from the same vendor G4_chrono used. I plan on having that modded once I receive it. I think it will make the deep black enamel of the dial pop, similar to the Omega SMPC (due to the dual AR).
> 
> .


The AR is one thing I could do with improving as well. How much did your crystal cost and how did you purchase? Also, how will you do the crystal replacement?


----------



## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

bjn74 said:


> The AR is one thing I could do with improving as well. How much did your crystal cost and how did you purchase? Also, how will you do the crystal replacement?


90 GBP was the cost with shipping. It was an overseas dealer. I am having Duarte from NEWW do the swap. He's done a ton of mods for me and is always a fair price, quick turn around, and does good work.


----------



## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> 90 GBP was the cost with shipping. It was an overseas dealer. I am having Duarte from NEWW do the swap. He's done a ton of mods for me and is always a fair price, quick turn around, and does good work.


Thanks for the info! Will be interested to see the outcome and might get the something done. I'll PM you for details.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Shaunie_007 said:


> That new Helson is a super cool watch. Thanks for the photo.
> 
> I don't if you've shared yet, but what are your thoughts on the new matte dial OR? I checked out some YouTube review on the green bezel variant and for the most part it seems the audience is underwhelmed by it. Do you share the majority vote?
> 
> I have the red bezel variant incoming and I'm curious to see how I'll feel about it.


Sorry for the delay. Been busy and wanted to post up a review with a bit of detail. I have it posted here:

Ginault 185066C1LVD Review


----------



## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

I've never had a watch modded, but after seeing how the AR coatings make the dial JUMP out I'm considering it. I can't believe the difference it makes.


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

fel2718 said:


> So I purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover (glowing smurfs--no date) second hand for a pretty good deal. I wanted to get my hands on one and figured I would wait til I could grab a used one. I've had it for roughly a week and I am damn impressed. The bezel action, crown action, and detail are impeccable. I read the reviews and hyperbole that Ginault had on their own website and didn't think it would live up to the hype. I still don't love the marketing pitch from Ginault, but that doesn't matter to me..it's an amazing watch.
> 
> I have a pretty modest collection, all of the same style (divers) and my premiere piece is an Omega SMPC. This honestly punches about the same weight as that piece. The dual AR on the Omega make the dial and hands shine and that's my biggest complaint with the Ginault. I HATE the crystal used. I love a good flat crystal and one that has at least an inner layer of AR. The current crystal on the watch makes the dial foggy in most lights. The detail and enamel on the dial/hands is a detail that Ginault excelled at and it's clouded (pun intended) by the foggy crystal. After seeing some mods by G4_Chrono and cwfmon I purchased a flat, dual AR, from the same vendor G4_chrono used. I plan on having that modded once I receive it. I think it will make the deep black enamel of the dial pop, similar to the Omega SMPC (due to the dual AR).
> 
> ...


To be honest, some of your gripes are shared by even the most devout Ginault fan. I think most of us also agree with the hyperbole on the website. It's a good thing there isn't a great need to spend a lot of time on the website! LOL!

Congratulations on your new, to you, Ocean Rover. For what it's worth, mine is also pre-owned. From your post it is obvious that you love yours as much as I love mine! Wear it in good health!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

Have any of you bought an aftermarket bracelet for the OR? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

fel2718 said:


> I also wish they made the warranty transferrable. I understand why they didn't but think it's fair to make the 1 year warranty transferrable.


I can see your POV since you bought preowned, but modding the crystal would void warranty anyways.

Be sure to post photos once you have the mods done!


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

I have a SMPC as well as the Ocean Rover, and completely agree with your assessment. The SMPC crystal magically "disappears" at times, making the dial really pop. I imagine the Ginault dial would look just as premium with a better crystal. Can't wait to see how your mod turns out.



fel2718 said:


> So I purchased a Ginault Ocean Rover (glowing smurfs--no date) second hand for a pretty good deal. I wanted to get my hands on one and figured I would wait til I could grab a used one. I've had it for roughly a week and I am damn impressed. The bezel action, crown action, and detail are impeccable. I read the reviews and hyperbole that Ginault had on their own website and didn't think it would live up to the hype. I still don't love the marketing pitch from Ginault, but that doesn't matter to me..it's an amazing watch.
> 
> I have a pretty modest collection, all of the same style (divers) and my premiere piece is an Omega SMPC. This honestly punches about the same weight as that piece. The dual AR on the Omega make the dial and hands shine and that's my biggest complaint with the Ginault. I HATE the crystal used. I love a good flat crystal and one that has at least an inner layer of AR. The current crystal on the watch makes the dial foggy in most lights. The detail and enamel on the dial/hands is a detail that Ginault excelled at and it's clouded (pun intended) by the foggy crystal. After seeing some mods by G4_Chrono and cwfmon I purchased a flat, dual AR, from the same vendor G4_chrono used. I plan on having that modded once I receive it. I think it will make the deep black enamel of the dial pop, similar to the Omega SMPC (due to the dual AR).
> 
> ...


----------



## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

I’ll post once it’s done but others have done it and posted pics and videos..looks great!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

WJG16 said:


> I have a SMPC as well as the Ocean Rover, and completely agree with your assessment. The SMPC crystal magically "disappears" at times, making the dial really pop. I imagine the Ginault dial would look just as premium with a better crystal. Can't wait to see how your mod turns out.


Like I said in my earlier post, the crystal for me has too much glare and makes the face of watch look grey at times. I love the watch...crystal needs to be addressed at some time. My SKX007 and 013 hardlex (not sapphire) are more clear and the face pops black/white...


----------



## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Perseverence said:


> Have any of you bought an aftermarket bracelet for the OR?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


I just ordered a sailcloth strap for mine. I've been looking for a good leather and even considered an Everest strap as I like the watch that much


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

All this talk of the Ocean Rover crystal, I thought I would post this photo again . .









Replacement flat sapphire with double AR coating. I love it! The AR allows the dial to really show off and I love the flat sapphire on this case and having the raised indices. . I prefer a printed dial under a dome.

The crystal on the explorer type case in the background is the original boxed sapphire dome from the Ocean Rover.

cwfmon has the original domed sapphire with double AR on his Ocean Rover.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

For give me, I couldn't resist a few more . .


----------



## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

G4_Chrono said:


> All this talk of the Ocean Rover crystal, I thought I would post this photo again . .
> 
> View attachment 13074931
> 
> ...


I'm using this crystal in my Ginault based project... Awesome clarity.










Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Mrwozza70 said:


> I'm using this crystal in my Ginault based project... Awesome clarity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love it! So excited about your project, great to see someone else brave/foolish to pull apart the Ginault. (Actually I find it great to work on, quality shows at every level)


----------



## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

G4_Chrono said:


> Love it! So excited about your project, great to see someone else brave/foolish to pull apart the Ginault. (Actually I find it great to work on, quality shows at every level)


It has been a joy to work on... so far

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

G4_Chrono said:


> All this talk of the Ocean Rover crystal, I thought I would post this photo again . .
> 
> View attachment 13074931
> 
> ...


Please tell me what the "explorer type" watch in the background is.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

rosborn said:


> Please tell me what the "explorer type" watch in the background is.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


hehe.
















It is a home brew build of mine from parts acquires . . 36mm case, drilled lugs, 7mm crown and 'triplock' tube, Tiger 369 dial, maxi merc hands, white seconds hand and Ginault OR dome sapphire!


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

G4_Chrono said:


> hehe.
> 
> View attachment 13075037
> 
> ...


It looks great! You did a fantastic job!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

rosborn said:


> It looks great! You did a fantastic job!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thanks!


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

2x AR on the BGW9 OR is a must do mod. $100-150 no brainer especially if you got the watch at 30-50% off.

Here are today's pics on a Watchgecko tropic rubber.




























And in case you missed it...here are pics from my mod thread showing the crystal profile and on an admiralty grey phenomnato.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Now my only request is Ginault to make BGW9 variant with the white numerals on black date wheel and no cyclops...aka 181270SILN!


----------



## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> 2x AR on the BGW9 OR is a must do mod. $100-150 no brainer especially if you got the watch at 30-50% off.
> 
> Here are today's pics on a Watchgecko tropic rubber.


Wow! That looks amazing, in some the photos the crystal just disappears


----------



## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Question to the forum members: Has anyone tried removing their Ocean Rover Crystal
and having it sent out to have an AR coating applied and then re-installed. I deal with lens coating labs and could have this done, but since this will void the warranty, I will probably wait until the watch is a year old.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Eye Doc said:


> Question to the forum members: Has anyone tried removing their Ocean Rover Crystal
> and having it sent out to have an AR coating applied and then re-installed. I deal with lens coating labs and could have this done, but since this will void the warranty, I will probably wait until the watch is a year old.


Hi

user cwfmon had his original Ginault sapphire double AR coated, I fitted a new replacement flat sapphire with double AR. The guy I purchased my replacement sapphire from will also apply the coatings to your own crystal.

I believe that the coating for lenses in spectacles etc are different to the AR coatings on Watch glass crystals.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

G4_Chrono said:


> Hi
> 
> user cwfmon had his original Ginault sapphire double AR coated, I fitted a new replacement flat sapphire with double AR. The guy I purchased my replacement sapphire from will also apply the coatings to your own crystal.
> 
> ...


I want to get a double AR coated crystal for my OR but can't do it myself and really don't want to be without my watch for however long it will take someone else to do it for me.

I like what y'all have done!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

rosborn said:


> I want to get a double AR coated crystal for my OR but can't do it myself and really don't want to be without my watch for however long it will take someone else to do it for me.
> 
> I like what y'all have done!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I swapped the crystal myself . . You could order the new crystal and take the watch into a local watchmaker for them to do the swap. Easy job for those with the tools so wouldn't take long.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

rosborn said:


> I want to get a double AR coated crystal for my OR but can't do it myself and really don't want to be without my watch for however long it will take someone else to do it for me.
> 
> I like what y'all have done!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I swapped the crystal myself . . You could order the new crystal and take the watch into a local watchmaker for them to do the swap. Easy job for those with the tools so wouldn't take long.


----------



## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

Dear all. I am Sonil from Sapphire Crystals AR Us. I can not vouch for eye lens companies but I believe they like us use a Physical Vapor Depositon process. Specifically we use reactive magnetron sputtering (anyone who is interested in the science I can send a PDF). The difference between companies is in the metal oxides that are use to comprise the AR layers. The multi layer AR coats that we use reduce the reflection of the sapphires to less than 0.5% essentially getting the results you see above (natural sapphire has a reflection of 8%). Hope this helps.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

The AR coating is def a plus, but the original crystal is no chump and speaks quality.


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

More shots of the dial, rehaul with that amazing brushing/finishing. I don't think there is another brand that offers a dial at this quality at this price range.


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

My two most worn watches. Ginault seriously punches above it's weight, as this thread continuously points out. I get just as much enjoyment from my Ginault as I do from my Speedmaster. They're both beautifully crafted and a pleasure to wear. Please forgive the bit of stickiness on the bezel. My daughter must've smudged it with food haha


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Finally arrived! The Gilt is nice, a very nice yellow gold with some decent reflectiveness. And a flat Sapphire, different from the mk1.









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

My ocean rover is with Duarte over at NEWW right now. I used the crystal that G4_chrono advised me of. I also bought a second high silver seconds hand to replace the red one. The red one was a cool touch but I like the clean look with the silver. Will be sure to post updates once received. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

fel2718 said:


> My ocean rover is with Duarte over at NEWW right now. I used the crystal that G4_chrono advised me of. I also bought a second high silver seconds hand to replace the red one. The red one was a cool touch but I like the clean look with the silver. Will be sure to post updates once received.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a nice crystal... but AR coating may be a little delicate - I have put a couple of tiny dints in mine already.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mrwozza70 said:


> It's a nice crystal... but AR coating may be a little delicate - I have put a couple of tiny dints in mine already.


Is this a Ginault case and you swapped out the dial and hands? Looks like the Ginault crown, that's why I ask.


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

biscuit141 said:


> Is this a Ginault case and you swapped out the dial and hands? Looks like the Ginault crown, that's why I ask.


Yes, swapped out movement, dial, insert, hands... and crystal. It's now my fantasy BSH 14060LVG ️

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Mrwozza70 said:


> It's a nice crystal... but AR coating may be a little delicate - I have put a couple of tiny dints in mine already.


Awesome!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

skunkworks said:


> Finally arrived! The Gilt is nice, a very nice yellow gold with some decent reflectiveness. And a flat Sapphire, different from the mk1.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice! How do the crystals compare?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> My ocean rover is with Duarte over at NEWW right now. I used the crystal that G4_chrono advised me of. I also bought a second high silver seconds hand to replace the red one. The red one was a cool touch but I like the clean look with the silver. Will be sure to post updates once received.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am also thinking about the same mods, including the silver second hand, but will wait until the warranty period is over (Nov).


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Yes, swapped out movement, dial, insert, hands... and crystal. It's now my fantasy BSH 14060LVG ️
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Great looking mod. I have an Omega SMPC and it too has a bit of a delicate outside AR. The marks are only visible under certain lights but It's definitely one of the downsides of the outer AR. If it gets that bad over time I'll probably just remove the outer AR (will still have inner at least) or have the AR reapplied. Your watch looks awesome!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I am also thinking about the same mods, including the silver second hand, but will wait until the warranty period is over (Nov).


Yea definitely not a bad idea. I bought mine second hand so the warranty had been voided anyway. Watch was running -1 a day for me so far.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

I love all these pics of the AR crystals. I'm not sure I'd get that done on mine, but it looks outstanding. 

What I would like to get done is have the lugs drilled. The bracelet end links have the tightest tolerances I've ever seen and it makes removing it a chore. Does anyone have any info about who is doing all the drilled lugs? Preferably US based as I don't want to be international shipping.

- Greg


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Yes, swapped out movement, dial, insert, hands... and crystal. It's now my fantasy BSH 14060LVG ️
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


...and what pray tell, was the motivation behind this very WISful endeavor???? Was it really all about the case? What movement did you put in? Man, I'm so glad I'm passed all the messing about, and can just buy the watch and live with it, or part with it.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

I also find it amusing this particular watch is attracting so much desire to alter, even minuscule modifications. First it was perfect, now it's not. So many sub homage, one would think you could just buy the one you like. 

The Ginault saga will continue for a long time. I certainly think John has gotten his intended mileage and so much more. Well done Ginault!


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> I also find it amusing this particular watch is attracting so much desire to alter, even minuscule modifications. First it was perfect, now it's not. So many sub homage, one would think you could just buy the one you like.
> 
> The Ginault saga will continue for a long time. I certainly think John has gotten his intended mileage and so much more. Well done Ginault!


It is amusing... but no watch is perfect... but I think it's safe to say people who like Ginault probably like the Rolex models it pays homage to. Or... depending on your viewpoint, replicates.

The case of the Ginault is definitely gen spec, and apart from case back and crown branding aside you could drop in a gen Rolex movement, gen insert and whatever else to build a Franken watch.

So I think it's fine to appreciate the off the peg Ginault models (they are bang on); and it's ok to tweak a couple of details or improve them.

And there will be mad hatters like me who just like to use the case set to build a nice sub.

P.s. I've not killed or discarded any parts... this may be a Ginault again... maybe... one day.

P.p.s. Ginault... John (TC... Thomas !?) go make a 16610LV model with a decent gen spec Crystal/Cyclops and you will sell another bucket load of Seaman









Do this...


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Mrwozza70 said:


> It is amusing... but no watch is perfect... but I think it's safe to say people who like Ginault probably like the Rolex models it pays homage to. Or... depending on your viewpoint, replicates.
> 
> The case of the Ginault is definitely gen spec, and apart from case back and crown branding aside you could drop in a gen Rolex movement, gen insert and whatever else to build a Franken watch.
> 
> ...


Ha ha -- Thanks Sir Wozza! I just had to ask. I follow the BSHT pages, though have some ground to make up & missed this one. Most intriguing, and yes totally crackers LOL -- All in the name of "the sub homage". Carry on ;-)

Very clever work there.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

MrWozza- what movement did you put in it?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Yes, swapped out movement, dial, insert, hands... and crystal. It's now my fantasy BSH 14060LVG ✌
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I would love to take the Steinhart Ocean One GMT 39 Pepsi and do this as well - beautiful case with Steinhart innards? Yes please. A proper Steinhart GMT.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

biscuit141 said:


> MrWozza- what movement did you put in it?


Rolex 3135... 
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
. 
Disguised as an ETA 2824

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Mrwozza70 said:


> It is amusing... but no watch is perfect... but I think it's safe to say people who like Ginault probably like the Rolex models it pays homage to. Or... depending on your viewpoint, replicates.
> 
> The case of the Ginault is definitely gen spec, and apart from case back and crown branding aside you could drop in a gen Rolex movement, gen insert and whatever else to build a Franken watch.
> 
> ...


Isn't that this? Or you just want a better crystal than what this comes with?









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Isn't that this? Or you just want a better crystal than what this comes with?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed that's got the DNA... but its a Maxi Dial, hands and Insert away from an LV dude.

Not knocking Ginault line up... why would I - owned two, operated on one - but an LV in the line up would be nice. I mean what's with the persistent use of sword hands... its like trying too hard not to be the real deal... but its a 1:1 clone in many other respects!!

Woah there... I think I need to get over to the MKII forum to ask if anybody has a Kingston plank kit for sale :-/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, I'm working to get my OR back up and in the wrist.

The bracelet came apart. After a quick response by Ginault about a replacement bracelet, there was no further communication or replacement sent.

I do like side projects. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Agreed that's got the DNA... but its a Maxi Dial, hands and Insert away from an LV dude.
> 
> Not knocking Ginault line up... why would I - owned two, operated on one - but an LV in the line up would be nice. I mean what's with the persistent use of sword hands... its like trying too hard not to be the real deal... but its a 1:1 clone in many other respects!!
> 
> ...


Roger that, I was just referring to the Cyclops you mentioned earlier.

I always thought Ginaults intent was, like someone mentioned, a greatest hits mash up album, with the 16610 case, 5517 hands, yachtmaster seconds, whatever else, I'm not enough of a Rolex connisuer to remember.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Roger that, I was just referring to the Cyclops you mentioned earlier.
> 
> I always thought Ginaults intent was, like someone mentioned, a greatest hits mash up album, with the 16610 case, 5517 hands, yachtmaster seconds, whatever else, I'm not enough of a Rolex connisuer to remember.
> 
> ...


️ that would look just great with a Ginault dial and hands ?

Making me green with envy...









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Roger that, I was just referring to the Cyclops you mentioned earlier.
> 
> I always thought Ginaults intent was, like someone mentioned, a greatest hits mash up album, with the 16610 case, 5517 hands, yachtmaster seconds, whatever else, I'm not enough of a Rolex connisuer to remember.
> 
> ...


Doesn't the Ginault website say as much - that the Ocean Rover is an amalgamation of a few historic Rolex models? That their intent was really to see if they could manufacture a quality watch in the U.S.?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Doesn't the Ginault website say as much - that the Ocean Rover is an amalgamation of a few historic Rolex models? That their intent was really to see if they could manufacture a quality watch in the U.S.?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Probably does, you know I don't read details on no stinkin' website. I'm more of 'oooh look at the pretty pictures, I want one', kind of guy.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Probably does, you know I don't read details on no stinkin' website. I'm more of 'oooh look at the pretty pictures, I want one', kind of guy.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


And if you had... you would have been all like WTF is golden sand lume... and where have I read these words before!!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Probably does, you know I don't read details on no stinkin' website. I'm more of 'oooh look at the pretty pictures, I want one', kind of guy.
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


Oh, I wasn't calling you out in any way. I just used your response to tell anyone who was interested where answers could be found.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Mrwozza70 said:


> And if you had... you would have been all like WTF is golden sand lume... and where have I read these words before!!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


That almost deterred me from buying one. Fortunately, the photos on the website are awesome.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Rainbow Rover


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Rubber B in the place the be!









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

Duarte is so damn fast with his work..here are the pics with the double AR flat crystal and silver seconds hand...









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> Duarte is so damn fast with his work..here are the pics with the double AR flat crystal and silver seconds hand...
> 
> View attachment 13095975
> 
> ...


Nice!

I am so used to the red seconds hand now, that I am not sure if I like the silver one better.

But the crystal looks amazing.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

skunkworks said:


> Rubber B in the place the be!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With Ginault's clasp or a tang?

Is it more comfortable than the bracelet?


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

I agree the red seconds hand is a nice touch, for some reason I just always like the clean look of a silver seconds hand. I will see how it looks in person and post more pictures once I receive it back!


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> With Ginault's clasp or a tang?
> 
> Is it more comfortable than the bracelet?


Ali Express Rolly style clasp

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

fel2718 said:


> Duarte is so damn fast with his work..here are the pics with the double AR flat crystal and silver seconds hand...
> 
> View attachment 13095975
> 
> ...


Very nice! Is that Sonil's double AR crystal? Like Garbanzo, I too like that splash of colour the red seconds hand gives.


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> Very nice! Is that Sonil's double AR crystal? Like Garbanzo, I too like that splash of colour the red seconds hand gives.


No it's from a gentleman in Europe, the companies name is SapphireCrystalsArUs I believe.


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

On a side note, if anyone wants to buy a domed Ginault crystal, HMU!


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Fel, looks great and different. Which second hand did you use? Does the lume match up?


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

Cool mods Fel 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

Looks beautiful mate. The double AR looks stunning. Wear in good health. 

FYI Sonil = Sapphire Crystals AR Us.


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

Then yes, I used Sonil and his service is fantastic


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

biscuit141 said:


> Fel, looks great and different. Which second hand did you use? Does the lume match up?


I bought the Helenarou mercedes hands set with blue lume. I decided to not use the mercedes hands because the blue lume doesn't match up perfectly with the Ginault and I am kind of particular about minor details. The seconds hand lume is small enough where it doesn't bother me. I used the same hands that G4_Chrono used to mod his watch. He posted lume pics at one point showing the difference and how it is negligible as the lume fades. His mod is really the inspiration for mine.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Mrwozza70 said:


> Rolex 3135...
> .
> .
> .
> ...


So MrWozza, since you pulled the Ginault movement, how did it look? Especially compared to your new ETA? Any particular reason you decided to change out the movement?


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## Sonil (Apr 9, 2018)

fel2718 said:


> Then yes, I used Sonil and his service is fantastic


Much appreciated mate!!


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## Mrwozza70 (May 13, 2012)

biscuit141 said:


> So MrWozza, since you pulled the Ginault movement, how did it look? Especially compared to your new ETA? Any particular reason you decided to change out the movement?


Looks very good... I haven't had it under loupe or anything. I decided to keep the whole Ginault motor, dial.and hands together. I may put it back in the case one day, who knows.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

I'm disappointed in Ginault's service for the bracelet, so I'll fix it myself.

Still a fantastic watch. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

State Park Rover


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

Some quick shots of the double AR crystal and white seconds hand.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> Some quick shots of the double AR crystal and white seconds hand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for sharing.

That crystal is amazing!

I am not sure if I like the silver seconds hand or not.


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

New crystal and seconds had look great to me


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

fel2718 said:


> Some quick shots of the double AR crystal and white seconds hand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Love it! Well done.


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Looks great Fel, mind me asking what was the damage for parts and labor? You had Duarte do the work for you right?


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

biscuit141 said:


> Looks great Fel, mind me asking what was the damage for parts and labor? You had Duarte do the work for you right?


$47 including shipping. It actually has to go back to him today. The seconds hand is having a little bit of an issue stopping with the crown fully extended. Duarte is great though and I have used him countless times without issue.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Ginault on the RubberB black rubber with red stripe. Fits perfectly.


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

fel2718 said:


> Some quick shots of the double AR crystal and white seconds hand.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So I went crazy and purchased a 114060 today. Probably going to be putting this one up for sale once it's back from Duarte. The sub itch has officially been scratched for me!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Congratulations!!! That must be one heck of a day  Look forward to seeing pics of the new watch.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> So I went crazy and purchased a 114060 today. Probably going to be putting this one up for sale once it's back from Duarte. The sub itch has officially been scratched for me!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congratulations! Please do not forget to share your impressions comparing both watches.

Maybe one day I'll join that club...


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Congratulations! Please do not forget to share your impressions comparing both watches.
> 
> Maybe one day I'll join that club...


I don't know if now was the right time but I had the funds, no kids (yet), getting married this fall (wanted a watch to wear that I will keep forever), and my local AD had one in.

Ginault packs a very big punch and is very close in a lot of aspects. I've had Steinharts, custom builds, Tisells, etc.. and this is by far the best Rolex homage. I guess you can say it's the "Rolex" of Rolex homage watches lol. The bracelet on the Ginault is pretty spot on to the Rolex. The bezel action on the Ginault is very good, but Rolex is on another level. That's one thing I've noticed on the Rolex that has put it WAY above any other "luxury" watch I have owned. I have had the SBDX017 and Seamaster Co-Axial and the Rolex bezel action is infinitely times better. I prefer mercedes hands, flat crystal, ceramic bezel and the super case on the modern Rolex vs the domed crystal, aluminum bezel, sword hands, older case on the Ginault. Dial and markers are very similar. Both have glossy black dials but the lume on the Ginault might be stronger. The lume on the Ginault also starts green and fades to blue where the Rolex is a mint blue from the start. Crown action felt pretty similar. My Ginault was keeping great time, I think it's about -2 seconds after checking on time.gov multiple days.

Is the Rolex worth 7-10X more than the Ginault without the brand recognition? Probably not. If you have a Ginault, or are looking for one, I think it's going to be your best bet at getting as close to the sub as you can. I respect what Rolex is though. I have watched videos about the making of their watches and the human touch that their experts add. I didn't get a Rolex for it to be a status symbol.. I bought one because I love the detail, precision, an history they have. It's a watch I'll have forever and will probably force me to dump any other watch I have. The sub and Ginault can be worn in any situation.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

@ fel2718 - your post is probably one of the most honest endorsements for the Ginault I have read - even as an owner about to sell theirs!

I think you are buying the Rolex Sub for all the "right" reasons. Rolex Subs are analogous to H-D motorcycles - 20 years from now it'll still look "right". Rolex also has the vertically integrated manufacturing and heritage to help justify a large part of their asking price (really, really good marketing help justify the rest).

Congrats on finding an AD with a stainless steel sports model in stock. They are getting to be pretty difficult to find.

When I was not married and had no kids, I spent my money on boats, motorcycles, and Jeeps. If I had bought a Rolex Sub instead, I might've had less fun, but probably could've made a couple bucks on the 20 year later flip!


----------



## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> @ fel2718 - your post is probably one of the most honest endorsements for the Ginault I have read - even as an owner about to sell theirs!
> 
> I think you are buying the Rolex Sub for all the "right" reasons. Rolex Subs are analogous to H-D motorcycles - 20 years from now it'll still look "right". Rolex also has the vertically integrated manufacturing and heritage to help justify a large part of their asking price (really, really good marketing help justify the rest).
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. I'm still not 100% going to sell the Ginault but I am probably going to. It's too similar to the Sub (which is a good thing) so I might want to diversify my collection a bit. The flat AR crystal was a great addition and really took the watch to another level for me. It's all about preference and the style you are looking to achieve. It's tough to justify what I spend on a watch when I made the purchase yesterday but I have tried so hard, for years, to find something that is as close to this as possible. It's funny that when I might have found it in the Ginault it encouraged me to go to the next level and purchase the actual thing.

I'll always have respect for good homage watches. I know it's a controversial subject but not everyone has the same freedom to purchase any watch they want. If they love the design of a certain watch and it's not in their budget, getting something that closely resembles it at the fraction of a cost is a big win. I never wore a Ginault in the hopes that someone mistook it for a Rolex. I wore it because I loved the design. I am shocked with the level of detail the Ginault has. I was turned off by the sales tactics and hyperbole on the website but that's a nicely done watch.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> I don't know if now was the right time but I had the funds, no kids (yet), getting married this fall (wanted a watch to wear that I will keep forever), and my local AD had one in.
> 
> Ginault packs a very big punch and is very close in a lot of aspects. I've had Steinharts, custom builds, Tisells, etc.. and this is by far the best Rolex homage. I guess you can say it's the "Rolex" of Rolex homage watches lol. The bracelet on the Ginault is pretty spot on to the Rolex. The bezel action on the Ginault is very good, but Rolex is on another level. That's one thing I've noticed on the Rolex that has put it WAY above any other "luxury" watch I have owned. I have had the SBDX017 and Seamaster Co-Axial and the Rolex bezel action is infinitely times better. I prefer mercedes hands, flat crystal, ceramic bezel and the super case on the modern Rolex vs the domed crystal, aluminum bezel, sword hands, older case on the Ginault. Dial and markers are very similar. Both have glossy black dials but the lume on the Ginault might be stronger. The lume on the Ginault also starts green and fades to blue where the Rolex is a mint blue from the start. Crown action felt pretty similar. My Ginault was keeping great time, I think it's about -2 seconds after checking on time.gov multiple days.
> 
> Is the Rolex worth 7-10X more than the Ginault without the brand recognition? Probably not. If you have a Ginault, or are looking for one, I think it's going to be your best bet at getting as close to the sub as you can. I respect what Rolex is though. I have watched videos about the making of their watches and the human touch that their experts add. I didn't get a Rolex for it to be a status symbol.. I bought one because I love the detail, precision, an history they have. It's a watch I'll have forever and will probably force me to dump any other watch I have. The sub and Ginault can be worn in any situation.


Many thanks for this! Enjoy the Submariner!


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

*New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*

You should check this new baby out, she is a beauty. 
Blue Bezel, BEIGE date, flat crystal with cyclops, absolutely 
Gorgeous

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*

Interesting first post!


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*

Pics or it never existed.


----------



## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

*New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*










Looks like they patina'd the date wheel and fattened the sword hour hand. $1,499 is ambitious pricing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*

Ooh that's nice...very tempting!!

How 'bout adding a tall "top-hat" style acrylic crystal? that'd probably push me over the edge!


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



trf2271 said:


> Looks like they patina'd the date wheel and fattened the sword hour hand. $1,499 is ambitious pricing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is ambitious, but there is also a standard discount. And I'd like to see someone compare it to something like a Monta. My guess is that it would hold up pretty well.


----------



## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



Radar1 said:


> It is ambitious, but there is also a standard discount. And I'd like to see someone compare it to something like a Monta. My guess is that it would hold up pretty well.


No doubt, I owned a couple in the past and currently own a Tudor Black Bay and the Ginault's aren't far off in terms of quality.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DEMO111 (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



RCar58 said:


> You should check this new baby out, she is a beauty.
> Blue Bezel, BEIGE date, flat crystal with cyclops, absolutely
> Gorgeous
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


Hmmmm. First post. Wording in post sounds like a sales plug to me.


----------



## TexasTaucher (Dec 3, 2016)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*

I just picked up an OVM 39mm. Was tempted by the Ginault, but I'm going to see how I like the OVM first. A sub is the end goal either way but that wont happen for a long time.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

*New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



TexasTaucher said:


> I just picked up an OVM 39mm. Was tempted by the Ginault, but I'm going to see how I like the OVM first. A sub is the end goal either way but that wont happen for a long time.


I have an OVM39 and my Ginault arrives tomorrow. I'll have a full comparison done.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

*The Ginault*

No, it isnt a sales plug at all. I noticed it, had not heard anyone mention it, loved it, and decided to share. Ordering mine after work, tonite.
I am wearing a blue bezel, black dial, Tisell at the moment, but was instantly enamored by the newest model. Considered ordering one similar, and doing a mod, b6t there it sits, and I dont have to now. Purely mho

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

*Re: The Ginault*

How many Ginault threads to we need? There are several already.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/new-ginault-model-181875-gslid-4701319.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/all-things-ginault-pics-q-reviews-etc-4308506.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/classic-submariner-lovers-ginault-ocean-rover-181070gsln-3860842.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/how-does-one-contact-ginault-hard-buy-watch-them-4698011.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-185066c1lvd-review-4686931.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181070lsiln-review-4606055.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/my-ginault-adventure-so-far-4528581.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/impressions-pics-new-ginault-ocean-rover-185066c1lvd-4676371.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/gina...ual-ar-crystal-upgrade-pic-heavy-4669441.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/introducing-ginault-ocean-rover-4596705.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/my-ginault-just-arrived-4543383.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/my-s...-purchase-tiny-review-181070gsln-4591641.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/ginault-owners-club-4616131.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/another-satisfied-ginault-owner-181070lsiln-4602291.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/step-up-tisell-ginault-other-4578987.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-hit-bezel-4574169.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/what-ginault-4181530.html


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

*Re: The Ginault*



yankeexpress said:


> How many Ginault threads to we need? There are several already.


Pardon my ignorance for posting in the wrong place....will not happen again

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## RCar58 (Mar 27, 2018)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



DEMO111 said:


> Hmmmm. First post. Wording in post sounds like a sales plug to me.


Not at all, saw it, liked it. Mentioned it. EOS

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-T217A using Tapatalk


----------



## Quicksilver (Jan 12, 2012)

Threads merged. Let’s keep everything in one place if possible. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Dec1968- Did Ginault ever contact you about the review or did you just buy one on your own?


----------



## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



Dec1968 said:


> I have an OVM39 and my Ginault arrives tomorrow. I'll have a full comparison done.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


Hmm ... Bro, looks like you finally crumbled, lol.

Anyway, good for you. :-!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

SimpleWatchMan said:


> Hmm ... Bro, looks like you finally crumbled, lol.
> 
> Anyway, good for you. :-!


I did crumble. I am losing that Gentleman's Bet we made a while back.

Not only that, this one incoming being Gold Lume....I'm also in talks with someone for the SILN model as well....so if I love the Gold Sand Lume....I may wind up with two.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

biscuit141 said:


> Dec1968- Did Ginault ever contact you about the review or did you just buy one on your own?


I'm disappointed that I never heard back at all. They even featured me on their website with IG photos I posted. Kind of disheartening.

I've been a kind of brand ambassador for Tisell and I'd love the opportunity to do that for Ginault as well. As critical as I was earlier (and I was SUPER critical), to win me over and have me be a brand ambassador would be a good thing. Converts are usually more passionate.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> So I went crazy and purchased a 114060 today. Probably going to be putting this one up for sale once it's back from Duarte. The sub itch has officially been scratched for me!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Would you, please, post some pics from both watches side by side? I am interested in seeing the differences in width, height, etc


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I'm disappointed that I never heard back at all. They even featured me on their website with IG photos I posted. Kind of disheartening.
> 
> I've been a kind of brand ambassador for Tisell and I'd love the opportunity to do that for Ginault as well. As critical as I was earlier (and I was SUPER critical), to win me over and have me be a brand ambassador would be a good thing. Converts are usually more passionate.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


Doesn't sound right for a company focusing their marketing efforts mainly on watch forums.

Look forward to reading your review.


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



TexasTaucher said:


> I just picked up an OVM 39mm. Was tempted by the Ginault, but I'm going to see how I like the OVM first. A sub is the end goal either way but that wont happen for a long time.


Ginault Ocean Rover is somewhat of a double edged sword. What I mean by this? Well, if you are going from a Steinhart to a Rolex you will definitely feel the upgrades and you will be very happy with the 8K spent. But if you are going from the Ocean Rover to a Rolex Sub, then most likely thaefeeling of that new and amazing excitement/upgrade finally to a Rolex is dulled.

The Ocean Rover willf rob you from that new surprise/excitement of owning a Rolex for the first time. Be warned.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Well mine is supposed to be back on Monday, we shall see if it keeps better time. At least it seems they fixed my crown issue I was sent a nice video of it being pulled and pushed. Seems smooth but we shall see. They did give a 2 year warranty for my trouble without asking. Only took two months.


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

The double AR gives the dial the credit it deserves...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Iron man should be here tomorrow. I can't wait to get my mitts on it! I'll update with photos once it arrives!


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## Spikedlee (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: New Ginault model 181875 GSLID*



trf2271 said:


> Looks like they patina'd the date wheel and fattened the sword hour hand. $1,499 is ambitious pricing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hour hand is the same size


----------



## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Spikedlee said:


> Hour hand is the same size


Looks great!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Not a fan of the surface cyclops. Always a pain to keep clean around edge. Now if only it were under the crystal.....


----------



## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

*Re: The Ginault*



yankeexpress said:


> How many Ginault threads to we need? There are several already.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/new-ginault-model-181875-gslid-4701319.html
> 
> ...


Get over it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Here's my new arrival 1805066C1LRD. I must say, I love it and think it makes a nice companion to my 181070GSLN.




























Video comparison review can be found here:


----------



## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

*Re: The Ginault*



Perseverence said:


> Get over it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Must have taken a while to compile the list.


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)




----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Everything about this watch is screaming craftsmanship and details.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Just ordered the blue/gold with champagne datewheel and cyclops. John replied quite fast and the answers were very comprehensive, we had a decent chat about watches too. To be fair, it's been a very pleasant transaction.

I'll post some pics as soon as I have it with me. Can't wait!


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

*Re: The Ginault*



Perseverence said:


> Get over it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


Please don't! His post has been actually very useful for my research before buying one. And now it's helping ease the wait after ordering, haha.


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm quite infatuated with my new 185066C1LRD. The red on the insert changes from burgundy to cherry red depending on lighting. The gilt dial also changes from black to a gold/black depending on lighting as well. The gold post on the seconds hand with the rest of the hand painted red just shows incredible attention to detail. I'm really happy I bought an extra bracelet for it, as I love their bracelets. All-in-all I think $699 for one of these +/- a discount is an incredible value. I hope others feel the same. Oh, and the unregulated movement in mine is keeping +2 seconds per day. I have literally 0 complaints about this watch.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Shaunie_007 said:


> I'm quite infatuated with my new 185066C1LRD. The red on the insert changes from burgundy to cherry red depending on lighting. The gilt dial also changes from black to a gold/black depending on lighting as well. The gold post on the seconds hand with the rest of the hand painted red just shows incredible attention to detail. I'm really happy I bought an extra bracelet for it, as I love their bracelets. All-in-all I think $699 for one of these +/- a discount is an incredible value. I hope others feel the same. Oh, and the unregulated movement in mine is keeping +2 seconds per day. I have literally 0 complaints about this watch.


Did this come on he bracelet? I R E A L L Y like it!


----------



## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I have one of the originals, a prototype in fact. I love the new, simpler, versions too. how many bezel color variants are there and what are the model numbers for those variants?

Finally, I am interested in knowing how many of you own both the original version with the abundant dial text, and the newer version with less dial text? Is it worthwhile to own both?


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

rosborn said:


> Did this come on he bracelet? I R E A L L Y like it!


Hey rosborn,

I'll try to answer your questions in one post. The watch originally came on a leather strap, but I bought another bracelet from Ginault for $220. With their current discount it ended up being the same as paying full price for the watch, $699, and getting a free bracelet.



rosborn said:


> I have one of the originals, a prototype in fact. I love the new, simpler, versions too. how many bezel color variants are there and what are the model numbers for those variants?
> 
> Finally, I am interested in knowing how many of you own both the original version with the abundant dial text, and the newer version with less dial text? Is it worthwhile to own both?


There are three bezel color variants with the newer gilt matte dial with minimal text. It comes in green, black, and red, and all have gold print for the numerals to match the gold hands and gilt dial.

I do own both the older and newer variant and I find it worthwhile to own both. They have the same case, but the change in bezel and dial make them wear entirely different. I have both on bracelet and though I have only had the red bezel variant for a short while, I do foresee myself wearing it on different occasions than the older model.










I hope that helps!


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Shaunie_007 said:


> Hey rosborn,
> 
> I'll try to answer your questions in one post. The watch originally came on a leather strap, but I bought another bracelet from Ginault for $220. With their current discount it ended up being the same as paying full price for the watch, $699, and getting a free bracelet.
> 
> ...


I love that red and gold insert which goes very well with the gilt dial.

I kinda like the way it looked on the leather strap.

Is the movement also chronometer grade like the original OR?


----------



## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Shaunie_007 said:


> Hey rosborn,
> 
> I'll try to answer your questions in one post. The watch originally came on a leather strap, but I bought another bracelet from Ginault for $220. With their current discount it ended up being the same as paying full price for the watch, $699, and getting a free bracelet.
> 
> ...


I love that red and gold insert which goes very well with the gilt dial.

I kinda like the way it looked on the leather strap.

Is the movement also chronometer grade like the original OR?


----------



## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Is there a possibility to buy only the dial?


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

MarkGT900 said:


> I love that red and gold insert which goes very well with the gilt dial.
> 
> I kinda like the way it looked on the leather strap.
> 
> Is the movement also chronometer grade like the original OR?


The leather does give the watch a nice look, but it is a bit too long for my 6.75" wrist and the strap doesn't taper, which is kind of a pet peeve of mine. The movement is not regulated like the original OR, so you run the risk of it being +/- 20 sec per day. I lucked out and mine is running +2 sec per day.


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

kovy71 said:


> Is there a possibility to buy only the dial?


Not too sure kovy71. You'll have to contact John at [email protected] and inquire.


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Has anyone else received their gilt dials? I would love to see more photos  Here's mine on wrist:


----------



## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Whelp, got mine back on Monday, and have been wearing it all week. It’s actually running worse than when I sent it in. John says it’s running in spec for them when they have it. For me it’s 45 spd fast. Absolutely ridiculous. Asked for a replacement or refund, got back the maybe your using it wrong, it was fine here. FML.


----------



## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Double post


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Whelp, got mine back on Monday, and have been wearing it all week. It's actually running worse than when I sent it in. John says it's running in spec for them when they have it. For me it's 45 spd fast. Absolutely ridiculous. Asked for a replacement or refund, got back the maybe your using it wrong, it was fine here. FML.


Sorry to hear that.

I understand that, at this point, you may have lost the interest in the watch being replaced. At least, this would be my case. I am sure would prefer the refund.

Please let us know how it ends.

FWIW, mine is running between +4 and +6 per day.


----------



## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Whelp, got mine back on Monday, and have been wearing it all week. It's actually running worse than when I sent it in. John says it's running in spec for them when they have it. For me it's 45 spd fast. Absolutely ridiculous. Asked for a replacement or refund, got back the maybe your using it wrong, it was fine here. FML.


Is it possible it keeps getting magnetized during shipping? I once sold a watch that was keeping great time while I had it, then when I sold it it must've gotten magnetized and was running +1 min/day. The buyer spent $10 to have it demagnetized at a local watchmaker and it was good to go.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Shaunie_007 said:


> Is it possible it keeps getting magnetized during shipping? I once sold a watch that was keeping great time while I had it, then when I sold it it must've gotten magnetized and was running +1 min/day. The buyer spent $10 to have it demagnetized at a local watchmaker and it was good to go.


^^^ This. +45s/d is quite a lot for an ETA 2824 or a clone. A magnetised watch does usually run faster than normal (never slower) and it's fairly easy to sort out.

My suggestion: why don't you take it to a local watchsmith and maybe send the invoice to Ginault and ask them to either pay or at least split it? Shouldn't be very expensive.


----------



## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Whelp, got mine back on Monday, and have been wearing it all week. It's actually running worse than when I sent it in. John says it's running in spec for them when they have it. For me it's 45 spd fast. Absolutely ridiculous. Asked for a replacement or refund, got back the maybe your using it wrong, it was fine here. FML.


If you're that unhappy with it, and Ginault themselves say it is running within spec for them, I'd a. try varying your wearing pattern. For example, are you very sedentary? Which arm do you wear it on? Dial up on top of wrist on dial down under your wrist? Do you take it off at night and put it on a nightstand/in a watchbox? etc. If that doesn't work, b. sell it and move on. I doubt you'd even lose much money on it. Better yet, trade it if possible.



Shaunie_007 said:


> Is it possible it keeps getting magnetized during shipping? I once sold a watch that was keeping great time while I had it, then when I sold it it must've gotten magnetized and was running +1 min/day. The buyer spent $10 to have it demagnetized at a local watchmaker and it was good to go.


Really unlikely. Magnetized watches run minutes fast on the *hour*.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Whelp, got mine back on Monday, and have been wearing it all week. It's actually running worse than when I sent it in. John says it's running in spec for them when they have it. For me it's 45 spd fast. Absolutely ridiculous. Asked for a replacement or refund, got back the maybe your using it wrong, it was fine here. FML.


I agree with what has been written. Probably not magnetized, but there are enough variables with wearing that maybe you could experiment a bit before taking more action.

If, even after a bit of experimentation, you are not seeing the results you expect, I would just send it to a local independent to have it regulated and adjusted.

ToxicNato had an affiliation with a CO-based repair service. I have never used them before, but I've heard good reports regarding their service. Given the movement is a 2824-2 clone, we are talking about the Chevy small block of watch movements - every mechanic should know how to service it.

Sorry you are dealing with this. Almost wish it was 2 hours fast a day as the fix would be easier to diagnose and repair.


----------



## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Loving the new Gilt. The flat crystal is a lot less reflective than GSLN. Love the way the dial looks in the sun.









Instagram: skunkworkswatches


----------



## jdmfetish (Nov 30, 2011)

skunkworks said:


> Loving the new Gilt. The flat crystal is a lot less reflective than GSLN. Love the way the dial looks in the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like they went to a non-applied plot , afaik , so i prefer the applied plot .


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

skunkworks said:


> Loving the new Gilt. The flat crystal is a lot less reflective than GSLN. Love the way the dial looks in the sun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like the look of the black/gilt bezel insert. It really jives with the dial print. Thanks for sharing!


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Darwin said:


> Really unlikely. Magnetized watches run minutes fast on the *hour*.


I may be dense, but aren't there different levels of magnetization? I thought the key diagnostic for magnetized watches was variability in timekeeping, and not so much the variance in timekeeping. For instance I had a Damasko running +30 sec/day one day, +20 sec/day the next, +45 sec/day the next... and so on, I took it to my watchmaker had the movement and case demagnetized and it was sorted out. I'm sure a movement that was exposed to high levels of magnetism will run minutes fast on the hour, but I don't think it's the case for all instances.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Shaunie_007 said:


> I may be dense, but aren't there different levels of magnetization? I thought the key diagnostic for magnetized watches was variability in timekeeping, and not so much the variance in timekeeping. For instance I had a Damasko running +30 sec/day one day, +20 sec/day the next, +45 sec/day the next... and so on, I took it to my watchmaker had the movement and case demagnetized and it was sorted out. I'm sure a movement that was exposed to high levels of magnetism will run minutes fast on the hour, but I don't think it's the case for all instances.


It is a simple enough / non-invasive repair to do, so I might just go ahead and do the de-magnetization just to be certain. It won't hurt anything even if it doesn't necessarily help his situation.

I've only had one watch magnetized in my years of collecting and it was running hours fast per day. It was a 2893-2 powered watch and it was crazy watching the seconds hand race around the dial.


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## Shaunie_007 (Feb 5, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> It is a simple enough / non-invasive repair to do, so I might just go ahead and do the de-magnetization just to be certain. It won't hurt anything even if it doesn't necessarily help his situation.
> 
> I've only had one watch magnetized in my years of collecting and it was running hours fast per day. It was a 2893-2 powered watch and it was crazy watching the seconds hand race around the dial.


Fingers crossed that it does the trick!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Shaunie_007 said:


> I may be dense, but aren't there different levels of magnetization? I thought the key diagnostic for magnetized watches was variability in timekeeping, and not so much the variance in timekeeping. For instance I had a Damasko running +30 sec/day one day, +20 sec/day the next, +45 sec/day the next... and so on, I took it to my watchmaker had the movement and case demagnetized and it was sorted out. I'm sure a movement that was exposed to high levels of magnetism will run minutes fast on the hour, but I don't think it's the case for all instances.


It's certainly worth trying. A demagnetiser is something you can get really cheap on eBay (make sure you use it properly or you will end up magnetising the watch even more!).

On another topic, has anyone from Europe used their EU Dispatch option? I opted for that when I ordered it last week and it would be good to know some experiences. How long did it take, any extra charges (there aren't supposed to be any, as it's an internal EU to EU shipping), etc.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> On another topic, has anyone from Europe used their EU Dispatch option? I opted for that when I ordered it last week and it would be good to know some experiences. How long did it take, any extra charges (there aren't supposed to be any, as it's an internal EU to EU shipping), etc.


I ordered my watch on October 13th and it was delivered via the EU dispatch 2 weeks later, without having to pay anything else.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I ordered my watch on October 13th and it was delivered via the EU dispatch 2 weeks later, without having to pay anything else.


Oh man, that's music to my ears, ¡muchas gracias!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Long time no pics.


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## Mintu (Feb 12, 2014)

it now costs $1000+ after 22% discount.
can't afford it but beautiful watch.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Just checking in, did anyone receive a tracking number when they ordered (from EU, I mean). Mine is on its way to Europe but I haven't heard anything for a few days (maybe John is on holidays for Memorial Weekend).


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Just checking in, did anyone receive a tracking number when they ordered (from EU, I mean). Mine is on its way to Europe but I haven't heard anything for a few days (maybe John is on holidays for Memorial Weekend).


I only received the automatic confirmation e-mail. No tracking number.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I only received the automatic confirmation e-mail. No tracking number.


Thanks a lot GarbanzoNegro! Good to know, then I will wait for Mr. Postman Pat to deliver it, hopefully this week. I'm really excited actually!


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## jmai (Apr 7, 2017)

Here's mine! 
I had one before but the lack of AR on the domed sapphire completely ruined the watch. No AR on flat sapphire is bad enough, but on a domed one it's even worse. Why they would forgo the AR on an otherwise amazingly built watch is beyond me.

I bought another one after I found out I could have the sapphire coated myself. This time though I went with the flat sapphire from the new gilt models and had it double AR coated. Then switched the bezel insert to an aftermarket gold one. I went with a vendor on Ali after finding that the 3 inserts I got on eBay are printed not so great (the hash marks aren't very crisp, etc). The one from Ali though has SHARP marks and letterings. Also popped the Ginault lume pip on it after dremeling out the hole to accommodate the pip.

I am a HAPPY camper.


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## WJG16 (Jan 2, 2018)

That crystal looks amazing!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

jmai said:


> ...This time though I went with the flat sapphire from the new gilt models and had it double AR coated.


Wow!! Love the AR coating!


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

jmai said:


> Here's mine!
> I had one before but the lack of AR on the domed sapphire completely ruined the watch. No AR on flat sapphire is bad enough, but on a domed one it's even worse. Why they would forgo the AR on an otherwise amazingly built watch is beyond me.
> 
> I bought another one after I found out I could have the sapphire coated myself. This time though I went with the flat sapphire from the new gilt models and had it double AR coated. Then switched the bezel insert to an aftermarket gold one. I went with a vendor on Ali after finding that the 3 inserts I got on eBay are printed not so great (the hash marks aren't very crisp, etc). The one from Ali though has SHARP marks and letterings. Also popped the Ginault lume pip on it after dremeling out the hole to accommodate the pip.
> ...


Looks great. :-!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

How long does an order take to get to you from Ginault if you live in the US?

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> How long does an order take to get to you from Ginault if you live in the US?
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


You are a lot closer to them than I am on the east coast and I think it took my shipment about 4 days. They ship USPS Priority and I ship to my business address, so I often have to wait until Monday for delivery, so my estimate might be a bit off due to that.

They do provide a tracking number when it is actually shipped.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> You are a lot closer to them than I am on the east coast and I think it took my shipment about 4 days. They ship USPS Priority and I ship to my business address, so I often have to wait until Monday for delivery, so my estimate might be a bit off due to that.
> 
> They do provide a tracking number when it is actually shipped.


I never got a tracking number for mine. Honestly it's been a bad purchasing experience.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I never got a tracking number for mine. Honestly it's been a bad purchasing experience.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


I ordered mine on the 16th this month but John said it could take between 15 and 20 days to arrive as it's been sent via EU dispatch. Today is literally day 15 after the order was placed and paid. My excitement is only because I have seen some posts of people saying they got it earlier, a few in 10 days, some in just 15. I'm going on a brief trip next Monday-Wednesday and I'd love to have it for the occasion, but as long as it arrives between the aforementioned window I'm ok.

...I'm still checking my post box every day, ha!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Does anyone experience their Ginault to stop (as in it acts like the movement hasn't been in motion and the hands stop) while wearing it as you sleep? I have a pre-owned one that has now stopped three times on three separate nights during the night. 

I wear a watch 24/7....never take it off unless to swap watches. Always on a winder if not being worn. This Ginault is my daily wear watch. 

I work in retail management and am very active throughout the day so there's no chance it's from inactivity. 

The movement is not quiet as it winds on the wrist, leading me to believe it's a bad movement. I have multiple ETA movements in other watches and this being a true ETA clone I should not hear the movement spin. It sounds more like the Miyota 9015 than the ETA.

Anyone else have the same issues? I'm half-tempted to buy an ETA 2824 and just drop it in the watch and be done with the worry. I won't jettison the watch, I'll drop a new movement in there if need be. I don't know if John warranties a pre-owned model or not. He's also very slow to reply. I know he's virtually a one-man show, but I ordered another model and it took weeks to even get any info on that and still haven't gotten any tracking info after his email saying it should be in my inbox in a few hours. That was days ago. 

Lovely watch that seems to be very well made, I still have my doubts about service and long term quality/servicing after the sale. 

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Does anyone experience their Ginault to stop (as in it acts like the movement hasn't been in motion and the hands stop) while wearing it as you sleep?


I also wear mine 24/7 and have not had such an issue.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

As for the rotor noise and stopped movement, I had a similar situation (without the excess noise, but I might not have noticed). My SWAG is maybe a loose rotor not allowing the watch to effectively wind, so maybe (hopefully) an easy fix. 

I had the extra issue of the crown also not winding the watch. I suspect I had an extra issue of a loose mainspring. 

I returned the watch under warranty and Ginault fixed the issue at no charge (other than my cost to ship the watch back to Ginault, but as it was all domestic, those charges were minimal). There were delays in my repair and Ginault offered a loaner watch for me to review while mine was repaired. I have no complaint with their service. 

In your situation, I would check the warranty card in the lid of your watch box. I can't remember for certain, but I think the warranty only applies to the original owner. You'd want to check that to be certain. 

If this is the case, and you'd like to address this independently, Toxicnatos has a watchmaker he is associated with based in Colorado. I've never used their services, but I've heard good things. 

If you switch to an ETA 2824-2, it should be a direct swap. The only thing your watchmaker will have to additionally do is swap over the pinion as the standard ETA is an H2 and the Ginualt uses an H4 to raise the hand height. 

As for your new watch order situation, I know Ginault does not necessarily have all models in stock. Some models claim 6 - 8 weeks lead time. Their website states the lead time in the model discription page. 

I bought mine very early on, so they likely had stock on hand, so my shipping experience was drama free. 

FWIW, my guess is Ginault is on the verge of experiencing what we saw with Steinhart years ago. The brand saw a rapid increase in popularity and is likely debating the decision to invest in additional staff (or looking for them as I imagine watch makers aren't super easy to find today).


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> As for the rotor noise and stopped movement, I had a similar situation (without the excess noise, but I might not have noticed). My SWAG is maybe a loose rotor not allowing the watch to effectively wind, so maybe (hopefully) an easy fix.
> 
> I had the extra issue of the crown also not winding the watch. I suspect I had an extra issue of a loose mainspring.
> 
> ...


Awesome info, thank you. The watch I bought is one they had at the photographers location and was to be shipped to me after they got it back. He promised a time and blew way past that timeframe. Not until I emailed him very kindly multiple times did I get any form of response. Disconcerting.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Yes, I'm certain something is up. If the watch you purchased was out for photography, maybe that person was delayed in shipping it back, or maybe the watch arrived back with some defect. There could be any number of potential variables causing the delay.

As always, communication is key. It would have been nice if Ginault has sent you a quick note saying "I know we said May 1st, but we haven't received the watch back yet." or "I'm sorry, the watch was received not in sell-able condition. We'll need 6 to 8 weeks to build you a new one." 

FWIW, I just checked the warranty card in my watch box and confirmed the warranty only applies to the original purchaser or (if purchased as a gift) the recipient person. It appears watches purchased second hand are not covered.

Maybe send the damaged watch to your watchmaker (or Toxic's) for repair or ETA replacement. If possible, ask for their opinion on the movement versus other movements they have been exposed to. A complete tear down with photos and learned opinion would be a fantastic read.

My opinion is, despite this movement being a clone of the 2824-2, there are likely some learning curve elements we are dealing with, such as what you are dealing with and what I experienced. 

In my decade of collecting, the movement which gave me the most aggravation was the Soprod A-10. While I have no doubt about its Swiss Made province and, as a Seiko enthusiast, I appreciate it is essentially a copy of the 4L (a Credor-level movement), but my example had to be returned twice due to over oiling at the factory.


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Does anyone experience their Ginault to stop (as in it acts like the movement hasn't been in motion and the hands stop) while wearing it as you sleep? I have a pre-owned one that has now stopped three times on three separate nights during the night.
> 
> I wear a watch 24/7....never take it off unless to swap watches. Always on a winder if not being worn. This Ginault is my daily wear watch.
> 
> ...


Received my OR in March this year. It was running +7 sec./day. After a month it just stopped, once when on my night stand and once on my wrist, but would start running again with a shake. I usually re-set my watch once a week and usually wind it several times. I have noticed that towards the end of the week it starts to run slow each day. I have noticed that the rotor does sound a little noisy when I shake the watch. My guess is that the rotor is loose and/or hanging up so towards the end of the week the power reserve is low. This would account for it running slow and the intermittent stopping. I wanted to see if the problem persists, but will probably have to return it for service under warranty.


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## Eye Doc (Sep 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Does anyone experience their Ginault to stop (as in it acts like the movement hasn't been in motion and the hands stop) while wearing it as you sleep? I have a pre-owned one that has now stopped three times on three separate nights during the night.
> 
> I wear a watch 24/7....never take it off unless to swap watches. Always on a winder if not being worn. This Ginault is my daily wear watch.
> 
> ...


Received my OR in March this year. It was running +7 sec./day. After a month it just stopped, once when on my night stand and once on my wrist, but would start running again with a shake. I usually re-set my watch once a week and usually wind it several times. I have noticed that towards the end of the week it starts to run slow each day. I have noticed that the rotor does sound a little noisy when I shake the watch. My guess is that the rotor is loose and/or hanging up so towards the end of the week the power reserve is low. This would account for it running slow and the intermittent stopping. I wanted to see if the problem persists, but will probably have to return it for service under warranty.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

I’ve had my Ginault “stop” on multiple occasions overnight. After a while, I began to realize that the watch wasn’t stopping, so much as it is not meeting it’s claimed reserve. 

If I take my watch off at 10pm, put on another watch for use through the next day, then go back to my Ginault at 7am.... it will have lost multiple hours or stopped entirely.

I don’t own any other watch that will run into this issue. However, I purchased this watch knowing full well that the manufacturer has limited experience with movement production. I made my purchase knowing that the ability to swap in an ETA movement should ensure a lifetime of use.

Now, I’m not claiming buyer beware. A buyer should expect to see specs at or above those promised by any seller. I made a personal decision to purchase based on the level of finishing and general craftsmanship of the case, dial and bracelet. 

With that said, this is the best purchase I have made in quite a long time. 

FYI: I did contact John, and he was more than happy to repair the watch under warranty. I opted against it because I rarely take the watch off, and I know the turnaround time is rather protracted. For a one man show, I believe his customer service to be top-notch.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Here is mine, one of the very early ones. Thankfully no movement issues so far.









Instagram @ the_watchier


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

gumpracer said:


> I've had my Ginault "stop" on multiple occasions overnight. After a while, I began to realize that the watch wasn't stopping, so much as it is not meeting it's claimed reserve.
> 
> If I take my watch off at 10pm, put on another watch for use through the next day, then go back to my Ginault at 7am.... it will have lost multiple hours or stopped entirely.
> 
> ...


Good to know but also frightening at the same time.

Reserve time is a claimed 38 hours. My watch, if I go to bed at 11:00pm, stops dead at roughly 3:00am.

Here's the oddball issue above and beyond that. Laying flat on my nightstand the watch runs all throughout the night. No stoppages.

That is not good. A four hour reserve time if that's what it is? I struggle to believe that's what it is.

I've long since said their in-house movement is what concerns me more than anything else and being a one man show also shows that QC on the movements had to be done outside of their facility.

Just my two cents. I say throw an ETA in there, charge more, problem solved.

I'll be doing that personally. I trust ETA. I don't trust the Ginault movement. No history or not enough history to even have any idea if it's good enough for a lifetime of use. And with literally no clue how they source or where they make the movements to me is slightly suspect.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Here's the oddball issue above and beyond that. Laying flat on my nightstand the watch runs all throughout the night. No stoppages.


Well that's a completely different thing and surely doesn't have anything to do with power reserve. Clearly something wears the movement unless it's flat, right? Have you tried leaving it overnight in other positions? (Dial up, 9 up, 3 up, etc)

It doesn't make any difference anyway, that movement needs to be looked into. I'm very sorry to hear that, buddy. A watch like this should be a source of enjoyment, not worry.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> Well that's a completely different thing and surely doesn't have anything to do with power reserve. Clearly something wears the movement unless it's flat, right? Have you tried leaving it overnight in other positions? (Dial up, 9 up, 3 up, etc)
> 
> It doesn't make any difference anyway, that movement needs to be looked into. I'm very sorry to hear that, buddy. A watch like this should be a source of enjoyment, not worry.


I will be doing that as well the next few evenings to test position. The rotor sounds looser than when I got it. I do know the movement had been removed and reinstalled, but done by one of our absolute professionals here on the forum. I don't see him being the reason why. I don't trust the movement. It's too new and too unproven.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

UPDATE

Crown up on nightstand - watch dead by 1:12am and was laid down on nightstand at 11:30pm. Ridiculous.









Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Crown up on nightstand - watch dead by 1:12am and was laid down on nightstand at 11:30pm. Ridiculous.
> 
> ...


So I guess there is no warranty option because someone here worked on the movement? What does Ginault have to say about it? You bought it used or new?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> UPDATE
> 
> Crown up on nightstand - watch dead by 1:12am and was laid down on nightstand at 11:30pm. Ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I am no expert, but this one seems to be kaputt. :-(

I would contact Ginault.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I bought it used and yes someone who has a great reputation as a modder opened it up. I'm certain Ginault won't warranty it due to those two factors. 

That said, knowing the modder and his reputation and we had discussions about this prior to my posts, I know it isn't him or his work. 

I'll contact John to let him know and while he will most likely refuse service, can't hurt to ask. 

I'll put an ETA in it anyways and solve all my woes. 

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I bought it used and yes someone who has a great reputation as a modder opened it up. I'm certain Ginault won't warranty it due to those two factors.
> 
> That said, knowing the modder and his reputation and we had discussions about this prior to my posts, I know it isn't him or his work.
> 
> ...


I think it is worth asking John. If he is aware of a known power reserve issue, he may take it on. But for certain the warranty has been voided. Please let us know what he says.


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

double post


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> I bought it used and yes someone who has a great reputation as a modder opened it up. I'm certain Ginault won't warranty it due to those two factors.
> 
> That said, knowing the modder and his reputation and we had discussions about this prior to my posts, I know it isn't him or his work.
> 
> ...


I completely understand your frustration, but I'm not letting this situation let me write off this movement yet.

Ginault addressed my situation beyond my expectations. _Providing a loaner watch is beyond what any manufacturer has done for me in nearly 10 years of collecting._

I had a Steinhart with an ETA 2893-2 which had a misaligned GMT hand and was extremely magnetized. I still like the 2893-2.

I had a Soprod A-10 that ran horribly and had to be returned to Australia twice (on my dime for shipping) to finally run well. I would buy another watch with an A-10.

In my Ginault situation, I'll readily admit I was not easy on this watch. It went surfing, golfing, and (admittedly gentle) mountain bike riding with me all summer. It went skiing and surfing with me all winter. Would an ETA 2824-2 have survived my use? Maybe. Then again, I've heard enough ETA 2824-2 failures to know they are not bullet proof either.

In your situation, you state the watch was opened and disassembled in some way by the previous owner. I know you say they are a respected modder, and while they may have skills, they simply aren't Ginault. For example, I'm pretty good with a wrench and I do my own brakes on my Tacoma, but I know as soon as I start wrenching on the truck, the responsibility shifts from Toyota to me. I'm not ASE certified nor am I Toyota certified. I am just a shade tree mechanic.

Depending upon how long you have owned this watch before it started experiencing these symptoms, I feel you have a more legitimate bone to pick with the seller of the watch than with Ginault. A hair or piece of loose debris getting into the main spring could cause this, as could a failure to torque the rotor properly. Mistakes happen and the responsibility is now on the modder, not the brand.

You can try to get Ginault to look at it, but in my opinion, if they do offer anything it would be far above and beyond the call of reasonable customer service. The warranty clearly states only the original purchaser is covered and the warranty is voided if the watch has been altered in any way.

While I am normally a huge proponent of sending defective watches back to the manufacturer for repair (and demanding warranty coverage as warranted) because there should be a cost for poor quality, in your specific situation I don't think this is justified.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> I completely understand your frustration, but I'm not letting this situation let me write off this movement yet.
> 
> Ginault addressed my situation beyond my expectations. _Providing a loaner watch is beyond what any manufacturer has done for me in nearly 10 years of collecting._
> 
> ...


All good points. And I'm a Taco owner 

I'll state this for the record - without revealing the modder - we all know his talent and he's as good as if not better than most manufacturers. So without question I can trust his abilities and judgment.

In the automotive world equivalent, he'd be the German car specialist as compared to the dealer. Someone who specializes in perfection above and beyond manufactures specs. He's that good.

I'll ask John. He's not been fast to reply to me, up to and including me buying a brand new watch from him. But being a one man show I do understand. There is a breaking point, though, and it's awful close to that for me right now. My expectations are low, and that's saying something when I set the bar that low.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

All good. I give you props for readily admitting the watch had been previously opened. Some less ethical people might try to hide this, so above all, I appreciate your honesty.

Knowing the watch was previously opened by someone does influence my willingness to indict Ginault's movement though. Even if you said it was someone with as stellar a reputation as RGM (who is the official service center for Sinn, Fortis, and a number of brands), a person can still have a bad day and it is an unknown variable I consider. FWIW, I know people who have had to have their Sinn's sent back to RGM to redo repairs, but I'd still buy a Sinn watch. 

Out of curiosity, did the watch run perfectly upon receipt for a number of weeks / months and you only now are witnessing the issue, or is this a "since day 1" kind of thing?
I don't need to know the answer to this question, but obviously it would suggest whether I (as the buyer) needed to have another discussion with the seller or not.

Personally, I'm holding out hope you will find a watch maker willing to tear down the Ginault movement plate by plate, taking macro shots all the way. I'd love to hear a true professional render an opinion of it as compared to an (arguably) equitable movement such as the ETA 2824 or SW200. 

I would also love to know what actually caused your issue to occur. In my situation, Ginault simply replaced the entire movement. I only know this as there was a second timing card in the box when the watch was returned. They did not send me any diagnostic information.

I'm no watch maker, but I'd want to follow up on two potential defect modes - 1) is the automatic winding assembly failing to generate power (which should be simple to diagnose as there are only the rotor, 4 wheels, and an upper and lower bridge or 2) is the stop lever somehow getting engaged forcing the movement to stop when in a certain position?

Another point of diagnostic data would be to assess, upon finding the watch dead on the nightstand, if only a few shakes gets the watch moving again for a long period of time, or if only a few shakes just gets the second hand to move a little bit around the dial, then it stops again. 

This would point to whether the mainspring still had power, but was stopped (i.e. in "hack") or if it was completely sprung with zero residual power. 

In my case, the mainspring was sprung. A few shakes (enough to get a Seiko going for an hour or more) only got the OR moving for a few seconds. I would hand wind the movement a bit, which worked, but I believe it over exercised the winding mechanism, causing further damage to the movement, necessitating the complete replacement.

I'm rooting for the little guy. If more companies such as Weiss and Ginault can actually manufacturer movements (mostly) domestically, I'm hopeful we might see a renaissance of more made in America watches (at least to the greatest degree possible).


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I emailed John and let him know all the details and of course full disclosure on # of owners and that it had been opened. 

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

UPDATE TWO

Watch is flat on nightstand - dead as a doornail - again at 1:12am. Movement is garbage in that one. 

Duarte Mendonca who usually does my repairs won't touch it. He's got one from a different forum member back in his hands to work on it and is frustrated with it. Says the Ginault's he's worked on have an awfully fragile and finicky movement. Not sure if he will even do a movement swap to an ETA. Says he's done working on Ginault due to that. Here's what he said:

"Funny you should bring up a Ginault watch.. I have one here currently that I installed a crystal in a few weeks ago. Customer sent it back because the hacking feature only works intermittently.. Now the winding clutch is slipping.. I am starting to dislike these eta clone movements and was just thinking I should avoid working on them.. maybe it is just a bad one?

After my hellish experience working on this one, I will pass on any further Ginaults/ the movement parts are apparently made with a special steel and cream cheese alloy.. Ughh.."

If he says the movement is troublesome, I don't trust the movement. That's a man I know and trust over the years with a stellar reputation. His work speaks for itself. 

New one is on my wrist and working fine. Got it yesterday. Will see how it handles constant on-wrist action. 

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Interesting update and I'd agree that Duarte is a well respected modder for things such as crystals and case work. 

I'm not certain I'd use his services for movement work though as he clearly states on his website his business does not service watch movements. 

My guess (and this is only a guess) is the keyless works in your movement are messed up as Duarte would've only had to remove and replace the crown to remove the movement and replace the crystal (assuming this is the mod on your watch). 

If you don't get a response from John at Ginault, or if the fee is excessive in your opinion, I suggest contacting Toxicnato for their service estimate. Their guy isn't a modder. He is a movement specialist. 

Heck, I would contact Toxic's guy just to get an estimate so I'd have that number when John responds. 

I'm not trying to be a Ginault apologist, but the longevity of the movement should be judged based upon an unadulterated example and the opinion of the movement materials should be rendered by someone who is a movement expert (no disrespect to Duarte). Just my opinion.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Interesting update and I'd agree that Duarte is a well respected modder for things such as crystals and case work.
> 
> I'm not certain I'd use his services for movement work though as he clearly states on his website his business does not service watch movements.
> 
> ...


Excellent advice. The Watch Duarte has isn't mine but is someone I know who has had issues with the movement - not the same as my issues but issues nonetheless. I'm starting to see this creep up. New movements always scare me.

Has anyone tried to fit a Miyota 9015/90S5 movement into a case made for the ETA? I had a wild idea on using the Ginault case with the goofy movement, gutting it and inserting my Tisell Vintage Sub dial/hands/movement into it. Would that be a fruitless endeavor? I know Helson, Armida, and others, use the same case for Miyota 9015 and ETA movements so it would be spacers and such, right? I'm no movement guy so I'm assuming, of course.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Radar1 (Mar 1, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> Interesting update and I'd agree that Duarte is a well respected modder for things such as crystals and case work.
> 
> I'm not certain I'd use his services for movement work though as he clearly states on his website his business does not service watch movements.
> 
> ...


Spot on.


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## gamecock111 (Apr 5, 2013)

I keep coming back to this watch for some reason. 42mm is my sweet spot, but I can’t coming back. Are these still basically halt off with a review or folks paying off retail?


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I bought it used and yes someone who has a great reputation as a modder opened it up. I'm certain Ginault won't warranty it due to those two factors.
> 
> That said, knowing the modder and his reputation and we had discussions about this prior to my posts, I know it isn't him or his work.
> 
> ...


Did it have the problem when the modder had it?

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## Tbjay1215 (Jan 2, 2018)

gamecock111 said:


> I keep coming back to this watch for some reason. 42mm is my sweet spot, but I can't coming back. Are these still basically halt off with a review or folks paying off retail?


Not anymore. The current discount is 22% off. If you email them they might do more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

skunkworks said:


> Did it have the problem when the modder had it?
> 
> Instagram: skunkworkswatches


No. He did not experience the problem. Also, I didn't either. I did after a week of owning it and no 'event' that would have caused it.

Got an email from John at Ginault. Asked to send it in and said Charles wanted to take a look at the movement.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

gamecock111 said:


> I keep coming back to this watch for some reason. 42mm is my sweet spot, but I can't coming back. Are these still basically halt off with a review or folks paying off retail?


No more 'half off' for review units.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> No. He did not experience the problem. Also, I didn't either. I did after a week of owning it and no 'event' that would have caused it.
> 
> Got an email from John at Ginault. Asked to send it in and said Charles wanted to take a look at the movement.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


This is really good news!

Just as an FYI, this is exactly what John stated to me. Unfortunately, my watch's arrival to Ginault coincided with one of Charles' business trips, so my watch sat in a holding pattern for some time. This was the reason John sent me the loaner. Hopefully, yours will be looked at right away.

The way I see it, there are three possibilities:

1) A handful of movements have weak links due to a production variation Ginault was not aware of. My guess is this is the most likely scenario as, if we believe Ginault's story on the movement creation process, it was manufactured by an association of various local machine shops. Maybe a supplier shop did not harden a component properly or use the prescribed alloy? This could certainly cause accelerated wear or failure.

My logic for guessing this is the most likely event is based upon the limited number of customers voicing concerns (4 that I am aware of, including you and my situations) relative to the large number of customers out there combined with the fact this watch has been a bit of a lightening rod for controversy, so if there was an epidemic of failures, we would certainly have a thread full of complaints.

2) The movement has an inherent weak link someplace which has to be identified and addressed. Having Charles look at your movement (adulterated) and compare it to my movement (unadulterated) plus anyone else who might be experiencing similar concerns will provide Ginault the evidence they need to provide a resolution. I think an inherent design weakness is less likely as Ginault clearly states this movement is a direct copy of the ETA 2824-2. It likely has all the same strengths and weaknesses of the ETA design.

_Personally, I think it is fantastic news Ginault is willing to look at your movement despite it being clearly out of warranty coverage. This speaks volumes to me in their willingness to investigate even the potential of a quality defect and rectify it for the benefit of the customer base._

3) Maybe there is something unique to the Ginault movement the modder community isn't away of yet. Maybe some nuance where, while it is very similar to a 2824-2, there is something just a bit unique that might cause this kind of failure if not considered. I think this is the least likely scenario as Ginault clearly stated they followed the ETA blueprint for the movement with the only modification being the shock absorbing system, but it should be considered. My logic for this assumption is there have been a number of crystal swaps posted here, plus, early on, a number of people posting photos of their disassembled watches. Reports of post-modification failures have been limited to yours and the report you posted of Duarte's situation.

I appreciate you keeping us posted on how this plays out.

Post a couple photos of your new model too, when you get the chance. It would be interesting to do a Tissell versus Ginault comparison too, especially around the case finishing and bezel action. These two features seem to be the prime value proposition points for the Ginault.


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> No. He did not experience the problem. Also, I didn't either. I did after a week of owning it and no 'event' that would have caused it.
> 
> Got an email from John at Ginault. Asked to send it in and said Charles wanted to take a look at the movement.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


That's a tough one, maybe something happened in shipping. For it to have no problems the whole year (?) the previous owner had it, then all of a sudden stop a week after USPS got their hands on it. Hope it shakes out for ya!

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> This is really good news!
> 
> Just as an FYI, this is exactly what John stated to me. Unfortunately, my watch's arrival to Ginault coincided with one of Charles' business trips, so my watch sat in a holding pattern for some time. This was the reason John sent me the loaner. Hopefully, yours will be looked at right away.
> 
> ...


I'm doing a full and unaldulterated review.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Smoothtoquer (Aug 18, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> This is really good news!
> 
> Just as an FYI, this is exactly what John stated to me. Unfortunately, my watch's arrival to Ginault coincided with one of Charles' business trips, so my watch sat in a holding pattern for some time. This was the reason John sent me the loaner. Hopefully, yours will be looked at right away.
> 
> ...


I recently purchased a Tissel sub and the Ginault is superior by every measure, although it's too soon to make a judgment regarding the movements.

The Tisell case wears larger as it is based on the "maxi" case on the ceramic Rolex sub. The finishing is quite nice, however, especially for the price. The bezel action on the Tisell barely even compares to the Ginault. The tolerance is a little bit looser and the clicks aren't nearly as refined neither in sound nor feel. The Tisell bracelet/clasp is good, but, again, lacks the refinement that the Ginault has.

Both my Ginault and Tisell are keeping excellent time, with the Tissel running slightly more accurately. Ginault is about -3.5 sec/day and the Tisell at +2.5 sec/day.

All in all both watches are great values IMO, but the extra cost of the Ginault is well worth it.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## martyloveswatches (Feb 9, 2017)

SKX Sub mod...

New...still didnt decide whether to pass it on or keep it









Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk


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## mplsabdullah (Jan 21, 2015)

martyluvswatches said:


> SKX Sub mod...
> 
> New...still didnt decide whether to pass it on or keep it
> 
> Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk


Great looking watch however I think you may have made a wrong turn and ended up in this thread by mistake. :think:


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## martyloveswatches (Feb 9, 2017)

mplsabdullah said:


> Great looking watch however I think you may have made a wrong turn and ended up in this thread by mistake. :think:


I think you may be right!


Poslano sa mog FRD-L09 koristeći Tapatalk


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

For anyone interested I just did a bezel insert change on my ocean rover. I have the gold sand lume with teh black/silver bezel. I bought the blue and gold bezel from ginault. I found a youtube video for instructions for replacing a submariner bezel insert and followed that. The only difference I came across is that the submariner instructions say to pry the bezel off from the 7 o'clock position as that is opposite where the little pice of 'racket wire' is (1 o'clock). I did that but discovered the 'ratchet wire' on the ginault is at the 6 o'clock position. Other than that it all went pretty well. I don't seem to have the bezel itself seated quite as well as pre-change. There's a very minor amount of up down movement of the bezel if I put my fingernail under the 6 and 12 positions and try to 'rock' the bezel. Not sure if I need to remove the bezel again and move the metal ring that's under the bezel. Anyway, here's a photo! I like the blue bezel. looks nearly black in dim light and brightens up quite a lot in the sun.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Ryeguy said:


> Post a couple photos of your new model too, when you get the chance. It would be interesting to do a Tissell versus Ginault comparison too, especially around the case finishing and bezel action. These two features seem to be the prime value proposition points for the Ginault.


I would also like to add that the dial, indices, and hands used on the Ocean Rover are all above and beyond the quality comparing to other watches at this price range. Heck, even lots of 3K-4K major Swiss players' watches don't have a high-gloss "grand fire" dial like what we are seeing on the Ocean Rover.

I wore my Ocean Rover to a local watch dealer checking out some APs. The sales manager there noticed what was on my wrist and asked about it. I told him what I know about the watch and he asked if he could take a look. He looked at the watch, played with the bezel, clasps (and had an awkward smile), and then examined the dial up close with a loupe and he said "wow, this is a REALLY nice dial" coming from guy that has seen so many high-end Swiss watches I'd say the dial is definitely also a selling point.


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## Morgan24 (Aug 15, 2016)

The dial is fantastic. But why not just OCEAN-ROVER in red and 1000ft/300m. Just those two lines?? Then it would be perfect!!


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Morgan24 said:


> The dial is fantastic. But why not just OCEAN-ROVER in red and 1000ft/300m. Just those two lines?? Then it would be perfect!!


I have asked John at Ginault regarding the possibility of having a 2 liner on their high-gloss dial. His reply was that they actually have tried some mock-up in the past but something just looked off when they maintain the proportions of the surface real-estate, indices and hands size. The reason it works well on the gilt version is because the gilt outline actually shrinks the dial's real estate visually. Makes sense if you think about it and this also shows that Ginault is really taking their craft seriously, grinding all aspects down to these nitty-gritty details. But he also mentioned if we can start a pre-order of at least 50 watches then they can consider making a special batch with 2 liner dial.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Double post


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

View attachment 13199829

View attachment 13199831

Details even down to the hands. It might look like just a thin piece of metal, but when you examine it up close, the construction, it is much more than just that.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

MarkGT900 said:


> I have asked John at Ginault regarding the possibility of having a 2 liner on their high-gloss dial. His reply was that they actually have tried some mock-up in the past but something just looked off when they maintain the proportions of the surface real-estate, indices and hands size. The reason it works well on the gilt version is because the gilt outline actually shrinks the dial's real estate visually. Makes sense if you think about it and this also shows that Ginault is really taking their craft seriously, grinding all aspects down to these nitty-gritty details. But he also mentioned if we can start a pre-order of at least 50 watches then they can consider making a special batch with 2 liner dial.


I believe a three line dial would be perfect. Ocean Rover in red, the last two lines in standard white. The depth rating on the bottom.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Funny how every uses the first name of the micro owner even when in case of like helson it’s a team of ppl they are all John


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

bjn74 said:


> View attachment 13196603


What strap is that??


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Avo said:


> What strap is that??


It's the RubberB strap for the Rolex submariner

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Anyone know if Ginault is going to release a GMT soonish?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

bjn74 said:


> Anyone know if Ginault is going to release a GMT soonish?


Well my AMEX hopes that they don't, ha!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> Anyone know if Ginault is going to release a GMT soonish?


See here:


Ginault said:


> That's on the road map in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2018.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> See here:


Thanks for the link. Hopefully they are still in track for that. I've asked in an email to Ginault about a GMT model and never got an answer. Will see what happens.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

mine says hello


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

mine says hello

View attachment 13205163


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

bjn74 said:


> Thanks for the link. Hopefully they are still in track for that. I've asked in an email to Ginault about a GMT model and never got an answer. Will see what happens.


I asked Ginault, a month ago via Facebook messenge, if they were still on track for releasing a GMT this year. He said, "GMT is definitely on the road map. But it might be further down the road."


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> I asked Ginault, a month ago via Facebook messenge, if they were still on track for releasing a GMT this year. He said, "GMT is definitely on the road map. But it might be further down the road."


Nice... Thank you for confirming!


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> I asked Ginault, a month ago via Facebook messenge, if they were still on track for releasing a GMT this year. He said, "GMT is definitely on the road map. But it might be further down the road."


Nice... Thank you for confirming!


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

I was the one who had the issue with the crown not stopping the seconds hand as Dec mentioned. Duarte fixed the issue and it works perfect now.

Otherwise, the movement I have has been really great. It was legit -.5 seconds the first day I got it back. I then had it sitting around for about an entire day and it was still running strong. Mine was from July 2017 so I wonder if the older models were better built? Anyway, because I purchased a 114060 I moved the Ginault which sold quickly. It would have been a forever keeper had I not purchased the sub.

Here's one last pic for the group with the 2x AR:









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> ... because I purchased a 114060 I moved the Ginault which sold quickly.


Did you take some photos of both side by side? :-D

Or did you forget? :-(


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## fel2718 (Sep 25, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Did you take some photos of both side by side? :-D
> 
> Or did you forget? :-(


Sorry I forgot :X


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> Sorry I forgot :X


Don't worry. I hope someone else will do it.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cwfmon said:


>


AR on flat sapphire?

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> AR on flat sapphire?
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


2xAR on Ginault's stock domed sapphire


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> 2xAR on Ginault's stock domed sapphire


Who applied the coating?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

bjn74 said:


> Who applied the coating?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


rnrprof


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> 2xAR on Ginault's stock domed sapphire


how much did the overall look change to the stock non coated crystal? Do you recommend to have it coated?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> 2xAR on Ginault's stock domed sapphire


how much did the overall look change to the stock non coated crystal? Do you recommend to have it coated?


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Don't worry. I hope someone else will do it.


Side by side with a 5513: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html

and with a 16610: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/clas...sub-16610-vs-ginault-ocean-rover-3925066.html

Both with lots of pics.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Darwin said:


> Side by side with a 5513: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html
> 
> and with a 16610: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/clas...sub-16610-vs-ginault-ocean-rover-3925066.html
> 
> Both with lots of pics.


Many thanks!

Nevertheless, I am missing a comparison against a 114060.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)




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## benchatamornwong (Mar 24, 2017)

fel2718 said:


> I was the one who had the issue with the crown not stopping the seconds hand as Dec mentioned. Duarte fixed the issue and it works perfect now.
> 
> Otherwise, the movement I have has been really great. It was legit -.5 seconds the first day I got it back. I then had it sitting around for about an entire day and it was still running strong. Mine was from July 2017 so I wonder if the older models were better built? Anyway, because I purchased a 114060 I moved the Ginault which sold quickly. It would have been a forever keeper had I not purchased the sub.
> 
> ...


I was too late. I saw the listing 6 hours after you posted and it was gone 

Where did you get the hands and AR crystal from?

Your version is the dream ginault. AR coated sapphire and non-red seconds hand, even better with the milsub style


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

An update from me:

I received the watch back from Ginault a while ago. They replaced the Movt. Running constant at -6 per day. Would rather +6, but oh well.

A couple weeks ago, I was about to pull the trigger on an 16600 Seadweller, but then thought....$6.5K? What if it is I.D.E.N.T.I.C.L.E to this Ginault (except for the Date)? Would I feel foolish for spending that much to get the identical watch? Would I end up wearing the Ginault anyway? Better bracelet for sure.....I decided to be happy for what I have.

Maybe this is in fact the end of the search. I have worn my Omega only one day since I got the Ginault back.

TD


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> An update from me:
> 
> I received the watch back from Ginault a while ago. They replaced the Movt. Running constant at -6 per day. Would rather +6, but oh well.
> 
> ...


Interesting comments. Besides a scurfa the Ginault is my cheapest watch. I have an oris diver 65 42 (just sold yesterday), a tag here Grand Carrera RS6 and a Heuer Autavai Jack Heuer LImited Edition. The Ginault gets way more wrist time than anything else (why I sold the Oris and am looking to sell the Autavia for something more everyday like a speedmaster or aqua terra). It just works as a great everyday watch. I was never really interested in the Rolex Sub until I got the Ginault. Now I get why it's such an iconic design and why a lot of people refer to it as a perfect one watch collection. I also have smaller wrists (6.75 inches) so the size of the Ginault is pretty ideal. I'm interested to see if they release some original designs in the future with the same quality as the ocean rover.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> Interesting comments. Besides a scurfa the Ginault is my cheapest watch. I have an oris diver 65 42 (just sold yesterday), a tag here Grand Carrera RS6 and a Heuer Autavai Jack Heuer LImited Edition. The Ginault gets way more wrist time than anything else (why I sold the Oris and am looking to sell the Autavia for something more everyday like a speedmaster or aqua terra). It just works as a great everyday watch. I was never really interested in the Rolex Sub until I got the Ginault. Now I get why it's such an iconic design and why a lot of people refer to it as a perfect one watch collection. I also have smaller wrists (6.75 inches) so the size of the Ginault is pretty ideal. I'm interested to see if they release some original designs in the future with the same quality as the ocean rover.


Thank you for sharing these views.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Darwin said:


> Side by side with a 5513: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html
> 
> and with a 16610: https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/clas...sub-16610-vs-ginault-ocean-rover-3925066.html
> 
> Both with lots of pics.


Here is another side by side with a Steinhart 39mm just posted not long ago. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/stei...over%85-upgrade-let%92s-find-out-4724909.html


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## Bill Jones (Dec 29, 2009)

Hi,

Not big on technicals, but I can speak from wearing on my wrist a Rolex submariner 16610 with date, and a Rolex Explorer 1 114270, and a Rolex Oyster Perpetual arabic silver dial in 36 mm. Also an Omega Professional 300m co-axial, and an Aqua Terra master co-axial 38.5mm, a Aqua Terra 41mm quartz blue dial, and an IWC Mark xv11.

I have purchased these watches based upon the recommendations of those folks who know a lot more about watches than I do. I enjoy all of them.

So, I got the Ginault Ocean Rover, gold sand lume, no date. LIKE IT. It is fun to wear, easy to wear, comfortable.

The case, dial, bezel finish and action, are flawless in a watch of this price. The quality is easily comparable to Sinn or Oris, and easily exceeds STOWA.


The bracelet is flimsy and the slide lock blew up on me. I called Ginault and no one ever got back to me. I then e-mailed. No answer. So I fixed it myself with a metal punch, creating a slightly bigger circular indentation to hold the spring bar for the clasp double closure.
Other than that...steady steady wear for 8 months. Enjoyable and comfortable is the only way to describe it. And it DOES NOT LOOK CHEESY AND CHEAP.
I was down at my safe deposit box the other day and unboxed my Rolex Submariner. It is a stunning piece, and the center of mass of my collection. Without it, pretty much everything else I have falls apart.

I consider the watches I have listed to be the "old breed", always gorgeous, always appreciated, and always respected.

The Ginault is the playful newbie, rightly waiting its turn to enter and establish its place amongst the mid-priced dive watches.

I would buy this atch again, and then again. No doubt. It is the most attractive, functional, and easily serviced lower mid-priced dive watch out there.

OK there it is. THoroughly unsophisticated, but from a person who has worn the very best steel watches on his wrist.

I like the Ginault, gold sand lume, no date. I love it! And I am not afraid to wear it hard, either.

Cheers from an unsophisticate.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)




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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Been waiting for four weeks already, and it was supposed to be a 15 days wait for the EU dispatch. John said 6 days ago that the watch was already in customs and waiting to be cleared. This transaction has been far than seamless...


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> Been waiting for four weeks already, and it was supposed to be a 15 days wait for the EU dispatch. John said 6 days ago that the watch was already in customs and waiting to be cleared. This transaction has been far than seamless...


I am ordering one for my buddy who lives in Germany. But will hold for now. Keep us updated regarding this. Thanks


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MarkGT900 said:


> I am ordering one for my buddy who lives in Germany. But will hold for now. Keep us updated regarding this. Thanks


Will keep you guys posted. Just out of interest, has anyone recently received any order from them?


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

I'm back in the Ginault club. It came in today pre-loved, but in excellent condition:










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm a new owner of a Ocean Rover prototype. What an affordable, quality watch. The build is excellent and it's accuracy is amazing. I'm sold. Over the years I've owned a Rolex, two Omega Seamasters, and a Tag Aquaracer. For the price this watch is a bargain.


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

Hi guys,

I'm a happy owner of the Ginault Ocean-Rover, but I wanted to replace the original domed sapphire with a flat one. So I ordered the 25-295 replacement crystal from eBay and took it to my local watchmaker/repair guy. 

Unfortunately he just called me that the crystal fits, but there is a problem with the gasket - he said it doesn't fit well and it didn't pass the WR test.

Is there anybody who tried to replace the sapphire with a flat one? How did you do it or where did you buy it? Is there a solution for me? Any chance to buy a "good" gasket somwehere (on eBay for example)?

I also considered buying the dual AR crystal (as someone mentioned it while ago), but I'm just not a big fan of dual AR, I like the "Rolex flare" better..

Thank you for the answers in advance!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr. Igelit said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm a happy owner of the Ginault Ocean-Rover, but I wanted to replace the original domed sapphire with a flat one. So I ordered the 25-295 replacement crystal from eBay and took it to my local watchmaker/repair guy.
> 
> ...


I guess it depends on what is the problem with the gasket. I seem to remember that the original gaskets in a 16610 sub are slightly shorter than the aftermarket ones and sometimes require some sanding or just shortening them in some way (otherwise the crystal sits higher than usual). However, it should still fit, as the Ocean Rover case shares the same specs with the original 16610 sub.

I seem to remember that Clarks has decent reputation for aftermarket crystals, you can try this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clark-Sapp...360335?hash=item3b10b4e24f:g:xgUAAOSwR31ZznWu

However, you won't have the classic "black hole effect" that original Rolex crystals have, when the cyclops has AR and the main crystal hasn't (which creates a distinctive effect as the glass reflects the light and the cyclops just lets it through).

Alternatively, you can get just the gasket here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Clark-Sa...&sd=253344149217&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

(Sorry for the crappy links, I don't know how to shorten these)


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

The aftermarket crystal I bought came with the gasket and from what he was saying it seems that this gasket doesn't "make the watch waterproof", so it won't pass the WR test. Like the gasket is not enough thick or something...

Well, I have a nodate Ginault, so I have a sapphire without the cyclops. I was hoping for the look of a nodate Sub 

Maybe I'll ask him if that gasket from your link will help in some way and perhaps buy it..

Thank you!


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Mr. Igelit said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm a happy owner of the Ginault Ocean-Rover, but I wanted to replace the original domed sapphire with a flat one. So I ordered the 25-295 replacement crystal from eBay and took it to my local watchmaker/repair guy.
> 
> ...


Is he familiar with the Rolex type bezel/crystal/gasket assembly? Did he try fitting with the original Ginault gasket? Did he also remember to include the rubber o ring gasket that sits under the crystal retaining ring?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

I haven't posted a photo in a while . . .









My Ginault with 2xAR flat sapphire, merc hands and drilled lugs.


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

G4_Chrono said:


> Is he familiar with the Rolex type bezel/crystal/gasket assembly? Did he try fitting with the original Ginault gasket? Did he also remember to include the rubber o ring gasket that sits under the crystal retaining ring?
> 
> View attachment 13223993


I'll ask him about that, thank you! So the original Ginault gasket should applicable? I thought the original gasket must be a little bit longer, because the domed sapphire is 3,5 mm I believe?


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

I find it amazing the various levels and /or the desire to make modifications to this particular watch. There are so many other sub options at a lesser price and many Seiko based mod options that are easier with more assured outcome. 

I like modding too, but never would have thought of altering the Ginault. Then again, I realized the lo$$es on modifying dozens of Seiko's years ago


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

You guys are lucky. I spent more than $1k on this watch and after a whole month I am still to receive even a tracking number. Moreover, I sent about six emails to their only email address and had one response saying it was in customs waiting to be cleared and I would receive a tracking number after that. That was more than a week ago and John hasn't replied any of my following emails.

I'm probably going to work with AMEX to reverse the charge, I am starting to lose interest on this. Especially because I don't think it will offer the post sale support that a $1k watch requires should anything go wrong.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> You guys are lucky. I spent more than $1k on this watch and after a whole month I am still to receive even a tracking number. Moreover, I sent about six emails to their only email address and had one response saying it was in customs waiting to be cleared and I would receive a tracking number after that. That was more than a week ago and John hasn't replied any of my following emails.
> 
> I'm probably going to work with AMEX to reverse the charge, I am starting to lose interest on this. Especially because I don't think it will offer the post sale support that a $1k watch requires should anything go wrong.


very sorry to hear that, can totally understand your point. Seems like the quality of the customer service performance decreased a lot...


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> You guys are lucky. I spent more than $1k on this watch and after a whole month I am still to receive even a tracking number. Moreover, I sent about six emails to their only email address and had one response saying it was in customs waiting to be cleared and I would receive a tracking number after that. That was more than a week ago and John hasn't replied any of my following emails.
> 
> I'm probably going to work with AMEX to reverse the charge, I am starting to lose interest on this. Especially because I don't think it will offer the post sale support that a $1k watch requires should anything go wrong.


That's bad. :-(

FWIW, I had to send my watch two times to the EU service center (replace hour hand and broken bezel spring) and I can only say positive things about them.

I hope you receive the watch soon. If I am not mistaken, I did not receive any tracking number at all.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> That's bad. :-(
> 
> FWIW, I had to send my watch two times to the EU service center (replace hour hand and broken bezel spring) and I can only say positive things about them.
> 
> I hope you receive the watch soon. If I am not mistaken, I did not receive any tracking number at all.


Well, I guess it's just a matter of being patient and forgetting about it. And some day I will have a nice surprise in my post. Still very annoying.


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> Is he familiar with the Rolex type bezel/crystal/gasket assembly? Did he try fitting with the original Ginault gasket? Did he also remember to include the rubber o ring gasket that sits under the crystal retaining ring?
> 
> View attachment 13223993


Good advice, he should be using the original gasket and just replacing the crystal. Unless something is wrong with the original gasket, you usually want to use it in a crystal swap.

Instagram: skunkworkswatches


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Update: John just replied with a big apology for the delayed answer. Apparently the latest batch has been stopped at customs for more time than expected and they are sorting out the paperwork and on some discussions with EU customs. I guess the latest decisions on trade tariffs aren't helping. Oh well. He said that if by next Wednesday they can't get the package released he will refund me in full.

Honestly, that is just what I needed. An apology, a long and detailed explanation, and resolution proposal. I'm happy with that.


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

That's great. I emailed John once with a question and he replied back in a couple of days. Very nice email.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Sadly, I had to cancel the order. I got only a few emails back once the sale was closed and my money was sent. But the order got delayed by quite a lot and it wasn't until I mentioned the word chargeback that I had replies. Apparently the batch was stuck in EU customs because they were inspecting the watches, being accused of counterfeit (really? with not a single "Rolex" word in any watch? I'm afraid I don't believe that). More than a month delivery time is quite disappointing for a watch at this price, but not answering any of my emails (even the one asking for a cancellation) until I threat with calling Amex is just taking the piss.

I could have kept waiting and probably the watch would have showed up (my guess is they simply sold it out of stock and was shipped way after that), but to be honest I am not willing to trust such amount of money in a company with suck lack of customer support. Heck, even Tiger Concept has better CS!


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

I understand your frustration as I was once on the receiving end of it! I sold a watch to a buyer in Portugal which took 4 days to get there from the USA but then over 3 months to clear customs! I got many angry PM's and emails from the frustrated buyer. Maybe Spain has the same slow customs process? Lesson for me was NEVER sell and send a watch there again. Not had and issues with the UK, CH, Australia and Singapore.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> Sadly, I had to cancel the order. I got only a few emails back once the sale was closed and my money was sent. But the order got delayed by quite a lot and it wasn't until I mentioned the word chargeback that I had replies. Apparently the batch was stuck in EU customs because they were inspecting the watches, being accused of counterfeit (really? with not a single "Rolex" word in any watch? I'm afraid I don't believe that). More than a month delivery time is quite disappointing for a watch at this price, but not answering any of my emails (even the one asking for a cancellation) until I threat with calling Amex is just taking the piss.
> 
> I could have kept waiting and probably the watch would have showed up (my guess is they simply sold it out of stock and was shipped way after that), but to be honest I am not willing to trust such amount of money in a company with suck lack of customer support. Heck, even Tiger Concept has better CS!


Sorry to hear that dude. So here is something I am not exactly clear from reading your post. You threatened to call your Amex and that got Ginault to reply and got a watch to you immediately? Which model did you order?

My experience is a bit on the flip side. I was going to order an OR and have it shipped to my best friend in the UK for his birthday. Through my email with John, I was told it would take about 15-25 days going through their EU dispatch system. I figured since I am going over there in a month I might as well just hand carry. I ordered the 181875GSLID a few days ago and the package arrived here in Dallas today. This is my third purchase from them, besides the 181070LSILN which had a 4 week wait time, the other two all arrived within a week's time. Email communication with John is also pretty smooth. He did mentioned that he is the only one replying to emails and when the shop is busy he has to help out in there but so far all emails are replied within 2-3 days.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MarkGT900 said:


> Sorry to hear that dude. So here is something I am not exactly clear from reading your post. You threatened to call your Amex and that got Ginault to reply and got a watch to you immediately? Which model did you order?


Sorry if it was unclear, what I got was a refund. I wish I had the watch, but nope. To be fair, I might still order one as I travel to the US regularly and might be able to get one and carry it with me. This still looks to me like the best Sub homage, by far, and the blue bezel w/ date and cyclops is an absolute beaut. But in my case it wasn't just two or three days for a reply but more like a week as an average.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Sadly, I had to cancel the order. I got only a few emails back once the sale was closed and my money was sent. But the order got delayed by quite a lot and it wasn't until I mentioned the word chargeback that I had replies. Apparently the batch was stuck in EU customs because they were inspecting the watches, being accused of counterfeit (really? with not a single "Rolex" word in any watch? I'm afraid I don't believe that). More than a month delivery time is quite disappointing for a watch at this price, but not answering any of my emails (even the one asking for a cancellation) until I threat with calling Amex is just taking the piss.
> 
> I could have kept waiting and probably the watch would have showed up (my guess is they simply sold it out of stock and was shipped way after that), but to be honest I am not willing to trust such amount of money in a company with suck lack of customer support. Heck, even Tiger Concept has better CS!


That's a pity for both parties.

I hope they can solve this situation with the EU customs and the delay in answering the e-mails. The counterfeit story does sound a bit strange to me, too. :-O


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## Steven Cook (Nov 15, 2012)

Mine took 6 weeks from order time to delivery in the UK. I didn't see that as an issue but of course YMMV.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Steven Cook said:


> Mine took 6 weeks from order time to delivery in the UK. I didn't see that as an issue but of course YMMV.


Oh, don't get me wrong, the shipping was not at all the reason why I cancelled the order. I have been in this business for more than ten years, and I am used to wait weeks and even months sometimes. I am absolutely fine with someone telling me it's going to take up to 6 weeks and replying to my emails in 24-72h. But telling me the estimated shipping time will be 15-20 days when discussing the purchase, with emails replied in less than one hour, and then not replying until a week past day 25... (I didn't get in touch at all until the shipping deadline had long passed, and at all times I was tremendously polite). John offered a refund if by the 20 they didn't manage to get it cleared by customs (I didn't ask for the refund, as I actually wanted the watch).

And then again, I got in touch six days after that last communication when John told me about this weird "customs is holding our shipment because they say it's counterfeit" excuse, only asking about any updates, and had no answer. At that point, with the lack of transparency, strange excuses and really slow updates, I realised I would be quite uneasy with a watch company with such standards.

You might have been lucky, or maybe it was me that was unlucky. Nothing against the quality of the watch, which is outstanding so far. To me it's just that it felt quite a gamble and wasn't willing to risk more than a thousand dollars with that.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, the shipping was not at all the reason why I cancelled the order. I have been in this business for more than ten years, and I am used to wait weeks and even months sometimes. I am absolutely fine with someone telling me it's going to take up to 6 weeks and replying to my emails in 24-72h. But telling me the estimated shipping time will be 15-20 days when discussing the purchase, with emails replied in less than one hour, and then not replying until a week past day 25... (I didn't get in touch at all until the shipping deadline had long passed, and at all times I was tremendously polite). John offered a refund if by the 20 they didn't manage to get it cleared by customs (I didn't ask for the refund, as I actually wanted the watch).
> 
> And then again, I got in touch six days after that last communication when John told me about this weird "customs is holding our shipment because they say it's counterfeit" excuse, only asking about any updates, and had no answer. At that point, with the lack of transparency, strange excuses and really slow updates, I realised I would be quite uneasy with a watch company with such standards.
> 
> You might have been lucky, or maybe it was me that was unlucky. Nothing against the quality of the watch, which is outstanding so far. To me it's just that it felt quite a gamble and wasn't willing to risk more than a thousand dollars with that.


Totally understand your mentioned arguments. May I ask what the final reply from John was? How did you cancel the order after shipment?

Even if there occurring any problems in a transaction with this purchase value, it is the question how those issues are handled by the vendor, especially in the communication. Just makes a bad gut feeling overall.

I too confirm that all my questions before the actual purchase where answered also within a few hours (max. 1 day) by John. Although after I made the purchase and payment was done the communication was not as good as before. I had do send reminders after a few days to possible get a answer at all. I do understand the argument of a "one person operation". But with the growth of a micro brand it would make absolute sense to hire additional staff (even just for part time) for their office/online work. From a business point of view it would just make the whole transaction and after sale support more smooth. The whole brand and their sales could benefit from an investment like that. Such a person could handle E-Mail requests and support Ginault's online presence, in particular on social media channels.

As mentioned a few times here I totally love the Ginault Ocean Rover. I already own my second model of it. I initial wanted to purchase it again directly from Ginault. But the first E-Mail beforehand in regard to my second order I have send to John is still unanswered till today. So I just bought it preowned from a forum, even though I would have bought it also directly from Ginault completely new.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

The final reply was a bit bitter, because my email on the 20th (end of the day for me, mid day for California) was polite but included mentions to how disappointing is to receive quick answers before a sale, a too optimistic delivery time, and radio silence once the sale is closed and delivery time deadline is long gone.

He said he just so happened he was sitting in front of the computer desk. Funny isn't it? And by the response pattern he wasn't ever back in front of the computer anymore for the last weeks I guess. He ended the email with a short line saying he would refund the transaction immediately.

I even asked if the watch was already cleared from customs or if there was some estimation, as I was ready to wait more. Silence again. The funny thing is that if all that stuck in customs was true, the watch would be on my way as I don't think there is any way to recall the shipment, isn't it? Who knows, maybe I have a brand spanking new Ocean Rover in the postbox!


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## Dino7 (Jun 16, 2012)

I think that Ginault ship a batch of watches from the US to the EU , they go through customs and then arrive at their EU distribution centre . Then they get sent to individual customers . This is what happened when I ordered mine , saves us getting stung for another 20% Vat in the U.K. if the watch is shipped here from within the EU.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

repost


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Shizmosis said:


> As mentioned a few times here I totally love the Ginault Ocean Rover. I already own my second model of it. I initial wanted to purchase it again directly from Ginault. But the first E-Mail beforehand in regard to my second order I have send to John is still unanswered till today. So I just bought it preowned from a forum, even though I would have bought it also directly from Ginault completely new.


That's my experience as well. My first purchase I got a reply within a day. 2nd and 3rd purchase I had to wait for a few days before John got back to me. He did offer his apology, and we were able to have a few email exchange when I caught him in front of of his computer. I think that dude does wear multiple hats and can understand sometimes things get in the way.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

My third purchase, 181875GSLID which is a bday gift for my buddy in the UK. Really want to unwrap it and try it on but must resist!


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

Hey guys,

Just wondering if anyone knows what these splotches are and how/if they can be safely removed.

They don't want to rub away with a microfiber, or Dawn. I'm reticent to try anything harsher.

Thanks!


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

gumpracer said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just wondering if anyone knows what these splotches are and how/if they can be safely removed.
> 
> ...


It looks like you have plastic wrap on the side.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

Premise said:


> It looks like you have plastic wrap on the side.


Right... but it's not plastic wrap. Just splotches on the steel.


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

gumpracer said:


> Right... but it's not plastic wrap. Just splotches on the steel.


Weird. That doesn't sound normal.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

Premise said:


> Weird. That doesn't sound normal.


I know. I've been wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I haven't test it before and I follow this thread rather closely.


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

gumpracer said:


> I know. I've been wondering if anyone else has experienced this. I haven't test it before and I follow this thread rather closely.


Looks like it's from oil or a bad heat treatment.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

gumpracer said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just wondering if anyone knows what these splotches are and how/if they can be safely removed.
> 
> ...


Were they there when you received the watch? Did you contact Ginault?

Mine does not have them. This would really annoy me. I hope you find an easy solution.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

Wearing my OR today...
Unfortunately I might consider selling it to clear some needed cash









Instagram @ the_watchier


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## Rbelloni1 (Dec 10, 2017)

WHAT IS THE BEST!!! Diver watch you can buy for $1,500ish used or new....???????






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)




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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

181070LSILN


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

.









Instagram @ the_watchier


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)




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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

has anyone heard from John lately? Are any new Ginault projects in the pipeline?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Shizmosis said:


> has anyone heard from John lately? Are any new Ginault projects in the pipeline?


I hope all is well. He has one of mine in for service. Last we spoke was a few weeks ago. Something happening to cause alarm?

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I hope all is well. He has one of mine in for service. Last we spoke was a few weeks ago. Something happening to cause alarm?
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


I do not have any further information


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## andrewmack (Mar 6, 2017)

Happy Independence Day!


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## Coletrain182 (Apr 9, 2018)

Happy Independence Day!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

On MN strap for a change.

Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I'm back in the club. I had a BNIB Smurf that I let go a few months back. I wore it around the house a lot and I just didn't bond w/it because I wasn't that keen on the bracelet as I've always been a strap person....and honestly, it was so nice I was afraid of taking it out into the wild for fear of scratching it. But I told myself it one came up 2nd hand w/o bracelet I'd look seriously about buying it...and I did. Love it on the strap and I'll likely get another strap w/deployant as that's what I'm used too. But I have to say...as I always have...this is a lovely watch and its hard to believe you can get this kind of quality for the $$. That said...2 things still bother me about it...1) I think it totally needs AR on outside of crystal and 2) the mice-type at 6 w/o my glasses always looks like a smudge...LOL. But that's really picky stuff....and honestly for the $$ I can live w/it. For me on a strap and w/o weight of the bracelet, this will stay around for a bit. Oh...and just like my last one....keeps crazy good time.....!!!


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## Michael Joseph (Jun 22, 2018)

Mine just arrived in the mail yesterday! So far I love it. Sized it and wore it out to dinner with my wife and friends. My buddy looked at his Seiko diver and my OR and said he felt bad about his wrist. I ordered my with a black and silver bezel instead of blue and gold.


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

I have never worn mine with the bracelet. It's just too comfortable and looks good with the tan nylon strap.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

ssmith3046 said:


> I have never worn mine with the bracelet. It's just too comfortable and looks good with the tan nylon strap.


If the Smurf had come w/a black NATO instead of the tan...I would have probably kept it. The tan w/the GBW9 doesn't/didn't match at all...in black it would have been a no brainer....that said, I love my watches on perlon straps as I fancy them the most comfortable and w/unlimited adjustment....but here I'll like do another sailcloth or high-end leather w/deployant...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Beach Rover.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Has anyone ever went on the aeroplane with the Ginault?

I am asking because of the Operation Manual stating the risk of hidden magnets at airports.

Thank you for your replies


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> Has anyone ever went on the aeroplane with the Ginault?
> 
> I am asking because of the Operation Manual stating the risk of hidden magnets at airports.
> 
> Thank you for your replies


Several times. No problem at all.

Best,


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## biscuit141 (Jun 17, 2016)

Yep. No issue. Kind of hard to tell, but I'm sitting in an airplane seat in that picture.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Uncle Seiko tropic strap.

(BGW9 model, Mercedes hands, 2xAR flat sapphire, drilled lugs)


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

I still have my OR. I still love my OR. And, I still wear it every single day. In fact, it's the only watch I've worn since November 3, 2017.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

G4_Chrono said:


> View attachment 13310019
> 
> 
> Uncle Seiko tropic strap.
> ...


Where did you get that crystal? NOICE!!! Might get one myself


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

(double post)


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

rosborn said:


> I still have my OR. I still love my OR. And, I still wear it every single day. In fact, it's the only watch I've worn since November 3, 2017.


Yes...I just "re-bought" and its been on ever since. I have to say...its very handsome piece and the accuracy is spot on so far. Just debating over a new strap...Otherwise, all is right!


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Truly appreciate this beauty. The lume is so strong. I stepped outside for a few minutes walked back indoor. The lume lit up.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)




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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Ginault offers nearly IDENTICAL quality in workmanship, material construction, and movement accuracy to the 9K Rolex. I read many reviews of the Ocean Rover in all of the usual watch forums before my purchases, and quite honestly, none of the reviews truly reflect the beautiful craftsmanship and quality of the Ocean Rover until you hold it in your hands. And at this price point, I don't mind using it as a daily beater. Best of both worlds.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Shizmosis said:


> Has anyone ever went on the aeroplane with the Ginault?
> 
> I am asking because of the Operation Manual stating the risk of hidden magnets at airports.
> 
> Thank you for your replies


I always tell them that my watch is prone to being magnetized. So I take it off and hand it to them on the side. I don't let it go through the machines.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I've just started walking through w/it...w/o the bracelet it doesn't set off the metal detector


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

My Ginault has been on my wrist almost constantly since I bought it. It's running steady at +2 seconds over 24 hours.


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## tdnguyen (Jul 21, 2018)

How about the reliable and precision of Ginault movement after 6 months or year? Thanks


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

Mine still runs beautifully almost a year later.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

tdnguyen said:


> How about the reliable and precision of Ginault movement after 6 months or year? Thanks


Nine months after having bought it and wearing it daily: approx. +2 secs/day.


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

Before I bought one I read a lot comments posted by people who were owners and people who were not owners. I remember one comment by someone who thought it was too much like a Rolex and wouldn't buy one. When I'm wearing mine the last thing I think about is Rolex. I really appreciate this watch for the quality timepiece that it is. I need to put it up and start wearing other watches but it's hard to leave it in the case.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

ssmith3046 said:


> Before I bought one I read a lot comments posted by people who were owners and people who were not owners. I remember one comment by someone who thought it was too much like a Rolex and wouldn't buy one. When I'm wearing mine the last thing I think about is Rolex. I really appreciate this watch for the quality timepiece that it is. I need to put it up and start wearing other watches but it's hard to leave it in the case.


Yeah...the more I wear it, the more I like it. I'm wondering what's next for Ginault. I'd buy another...that I know  I'm not wearing my other stuff...time to thin the herd


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

I GMT would nice. I do hope they add more models to choose from. I'd buy another. I have the one with the date and cyclops crystal so the no date and sand lime would be different.


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

That last post had a lot of goofs 🙂


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## tdnguyen (Jul 21, 2018)

Any one try to swap a standard ETA to Ginault movement? I'm worried of the clearance between minute hand and indices. Thanks


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

tdnguyen said:


> Any one try to swap a standard ETA to Ginault movement? I'm worried of the clearance between minute hand and indices. Thanks


Why would you do this ? If the ginat was such quality?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

tdnguyen said:


> How about the reliable and precision of Ginault movement after 6 months or year? Thanks


I've had mine for a year and a half, and it's running +4s/day consistently.

Despite having a bunch of other watches (and two more incoming), the Ocean Rover gets around 80% of my wrist time.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

tdnguyen said:


> How about the reliable and precision of Ginault movement after 6 months or year? Thanks


I have two. One movement died. The other is accurate. I'm on the fence and I mean that literally with regards to their movement.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## tdnguyen (Jul 21, 2018)

Cause i see few "chinese clone ETA 2824" (in Rolex Fake watch) work and stop (not reliable at all). I doubt that Ginault movement has as such quality as case quality.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> I have two. One movement died.


Was the one that died under warranty? If so, how was it handled?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Avo said:


> Was the one that died under warranty? If so, how was it handled?


I bought it pre-owned and it was not under warranty. It is currently at Ginault and they are evaluating it and to my understanding they are covering the cost of repair. They stated 6-8 weeks and that this was an exception to the rule. Can't be unhappy about them covering the repair, even though the timeframe is longer than I would prefer.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

tdnguyen said:


> Cause i see few "chinese clone ETA 2824" (in Rolex Fake watch) work and stop (not reliable at all). I doubt that Ginault movement has as such quality as case quality.


I think that they outsource the parts for the movement for the most part from China. This watch would be better served with an ETA movement versus an 'in-house' (meaning Chinese sourced) movement.

Just my two cents.

Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> I think that they outsource the parts for the movement for the most part from China. This watch would be better served with an ETA movement versus an 'in-house' (meaning Chinese sourced) movement.
> 
> Just my two cents.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


To be fair, this is your belief and not what Ginault states publicly in their literature. They claim to produce the movement plates and gears in house. They state they purchase their jewels from Switzerland and they purchase their shock resist system from China (as the Swiss will not sell them this component independent from their movements).

These claims were actually the crux of the uproar about the 'Made in the USA' claim. You cannot source these key movement components from international vendors and still claim to be "Made in the USA".

I'm making no conjecture as to the movement origin. It is a copy of an ETA 2824-2 with a non-standard (H-4) pinion. My examples have proven more reliable than my Soprod A-10.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

So far I've been very impressed w/the movement. We all have ETA movement watches in our boxes and while they are easy and inexpensive to service, I think there is something very cool about Ginault having their own "in-house" movement...and regardless of where they source the parts or what its a clone of...its their movement (BTW...I'm not rekindling the debate about this issue...thanks!)...and you don't see that very often...even from premium watches...in fact more premiums are now pushing to make in-house so they can claim a more pure DNA (B&R, Tudor & Montblanc for example). I'm just impressed with what John and his team have done w/this time piece. Its just a really nice little piece for the $$ an no amount of debate can detract from that fact....its really that simple.


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## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I bought it pre-owned and it was not under warranty. It is currently at Ginault and they are evaluating it and to my understanding they are covering the cost of repair. They stated 6-8 weeks and that this was an exception to the rule. Can't be unhappy about them covering the repair, even though the timeframe is longer than I would prefer.
> 
> Follow me on Instagram- @Dec1968watches


From reading this forum I think 6-8 weeks is normal (and pretty standard across the industry).
I am really impressed that they are fixing it for free, even though you bought it used.
Awesome


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

*HELP - Bezel Insert Replacement for a Ginault Ocean Rover - HOW TO?*

Folks,

just looking for some pointers on how to replace a Bezel Insert for a Ginault Ocean Rover. Is it the same as a Rolex Submariner?

Looks like it does not need any adhesive. It's locked into place (pressure mounted) into the bezel outer ring.

Any advice or tutorials would be great (on what side to pry the bezel.....where's the spring located).

THX folks and take care.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

ssmith3046 said:


> Before I bought one I read a lot comments posted by people who were owners and people who were not owners. I remember one comment by someone who thought it was too much like a Rolex and wouldn't buy one. When I'm wearing mine the last thing I think about is Rolex. I really appreciate this watch for the quality timepiece that it is. I need to put it up and start wearing other watches but it's hard to leave it in the case.


My Ocean Rovers often got misidentified as a Sub and received compliments so I can understand why some people would shy away from it.

For me I'd always tell them that this is not a Rolex. If they seemed interested to continue the conversation I'd introduce the Ocean Rover, the brand story behind it, and how Ginault along with Weiss being one of the very few watch companies that manufacture their own parts in the US and how both companies have amazing craftsmanship and quality.

But I agree 100% with you that when I am wearing my Ocean Rover the last thing I think about is a Rolex. This is in fact the most crucial factor that sold the Ocean Rover to me is their interpretation of the perfect Sub aligns with my vision to the dot. With Rolex, you are never ever going to have these different iterations/variations.
Rolex would release that one style of Submariner and run with it for decades. Nothing wrong with that but I personally love the sword hands over the Mercedes or snowflake hands. I love this classic 5 digit mid-case design WAY MORE than the new 6 digit supercase. At the same time, I want the maxi dial + BGW9 lume which you can only get on the new 6 digit models. The Ocean Rovers really nailed it for me.

So if your intention of wearing a Sub homage is not to fool people tring to pass it as a Sub among the unsuspecting eyes, in my opinion there is no need to be wrist shy when people misidentify it.


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

*Re: HELP - Bezel Insert Replacement for a Ginault Ocean Rover - HOW TO?*



jerseydan31 said:


> Folks,
> 
> just looking for some pointers on how to replace a Bezel Insert for a Ginault Ocean Rover. Is it the same as a Rolex Submariner?
> 
> ...


I've replaced the bezel on my ocean rover a couple of times. I just googled Rolex bezel change and found a YouTube video. It's pretty much exactly the same except the retaining wire on a Rolex is at the 1 o'clock position so you leverage off the bezel from the 7 o'clock position. On the ocean rover the retaining wire is at 6pm, so leverage off the bezel from the 11 or 1 o'clock position.

To make sure your insert lines up perfectly with dial markings after the change take note of its alignment in the bezel before you take it out!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Thank you very much for your help!! If I need to buy a replacement insert, do you where I can get one (besides Ginault)? 

Do you which model Rolex bezel replacement can be used? I actually wanted to try buying a ceramic one (but aluminum would be fine). Thx again and take care


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

jerseydan31 said:


> Thank you very much for your help!! If I need to buy a replacement insert, do you where I can get one (besides Ginault)?
> 
> Do you which model Rolex bezel replacement can be used? I actually wanted to try buying a ceramic one (but aluminum would be fine). Thx again and take care


This eBay item ( 311001692259 ) claims to be a ceramic bezel insert that fits the Rolex 16610. I've not tried it but it is intriguing.

A bezel insert for the Rolex 16610 should fit the Ginault Ocean Rover. . . If it fits the 16610 it fits the Ginault. It should be a snap in fit.

Let us know how you get on and post photos!


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

G4_Chrono said:


> This eBay item ( 311001692259 ) claims to be a ceramic bezel insert that fits the Rolex 16610. I've not tried it but it is intriguing.
> 
> A bezel insert for the Rolex 16610 should fit the Ginault Ocean Rover. . . If it fits the 16610 it fits the Ginault. It should be a snap in fit.
> 
> Let us know how you get on and post photos!


Awesome thank you very much for the info!!! I guess my last concern is the color of the lume pip (matching the gold sand lume). I might order one and give it a shot!

You guys are gr8! THX again for the input!! ;-)


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

double post...argh!!!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

That's a nice pic!


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> That's a nice pic!


Indeed!!!


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Avo said:


> That's a nice pic!


Indeed!!!


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## Michael Joseph (Jun 22, 2018)

I have owned mine for about three weeks and I am super impressed. It keeps extremely good time and it looks and feels amazing on my wrist. My only issue has been that while on a trip last week a screw behind the clasp lock came out. I had to use improvised tool from my shaving kit in my hotel room to get it back in. One home put a drop of nail polish on the threads and reassembled. So far so good. I got the flat crystal with the cyclops. But now I am thinking of buying another with the domed crystal. Very high quality in my opinion, and worth the price for me.


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## Michael Joseph (Jun 22, 2018)

Wrist shot


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Michael Joseph said:


> I have owned mine for about three weeks and I am super impressed. It keeps extremely good time and it looks and feels amazing on my wrist. My only issue has been that while on a trip last week a screw behind the clasp lock came out. I had to use improvised tool from my shaving kit in my hotel room to get it back in. One home put a drop of nail polish on the threads and reassembled. So far so good. I got the flat crystal with the cyclops. But now I am thinking of buying another with the domed crystal. Very high quality in my opinion, and worth the price for me.


Wow good to know. I have both versions (flat w/cyclops and domed). The height on the domed crystal is significantly higher. The distortion on the dome is a nice touch but the crystal is indeed higher. So far I have 3 and love them all (they don't get enough wrist time). Looking for one with Smurf or C1 lume (all of my have Gold Sand Lume).


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Very quiet over here.

Ginault lume:


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> Very quiet over here.
> 
> Ginault lume:
> 
> View attachment 13391919


Who said lume? ;-)


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

The Ginault website has been updated with a new product / Ocean Rover version: 181175LSILN


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

The Ginault website has been updated with a new product / Ocean Rover version: 181175LSILN


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Shizmosis said:


> The Ginault website has been updated with a new product / Ocean Rover version: 181175LSILN


Here's mine, I've had this one for around eight months and it is by far my favorite watch.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> The Ginault website has been updated with a new product / Ocean Rover version: 181175LSILN


Nice, but the date function is not for me.


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Nice, but the date function is not for me.


But sometimes you might need to know the date 

I go back and forth. Love the simplicity, balance and clean beauty of a no date tool watch, but I find myself needing to know the date more often than I wish.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

ChristoO said:


> But sometimes you might need to know the date
> 
> I go back and forth. Love the simplicity, balance and clean beauty of a no date tool watch, but I find myself needing to know the date more often than I wish.


I know, but somehow I managed to find out the date, if I need to, which is not on a daily basis.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

double shot!


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I know, but somehow I managed to find out the date, if I need to, which is not on a daily basis.


Nowadays everybody has a smartphone! to take wristshots, keep an agenda,.....


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

So, my watch was running at +2 secs/day (some days at 0, some at +4). I was very happy with the performance, but then, suddenly, it started to run +12 secs/day for the last 2 weeks.

According to the Lepsi app, it seems to be magnetized. 









Any experience with this app?

Any advice on how to best demagnetize it? I am no WIS, so I do not have any watch tools or similar items.

Do all watchmakers demagnetize watches? How long does it take? How much does it cost?

Thanks in avance!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I asked my local watchmaker and he wanted to send it away so I bought a cheap demagnetiser from the Bay and have used it on a few of my magnetised watches with great results.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> I asked my local watchmaker and he wanted to send it away so I bought a cheap demagnetiser from the Bay and have used it on a few of my magnetised watches with great results.


Many thanks for the info!


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Magnetized watches gain minutes per _hour_, not 12 seconds a day. Over a 24 hour period a magnetized watch can gain _hours_. Have you varied your wearing pattern? Left the watch crown up on the nightstand where before you might have worn it through the night? Started swapping it out for a different watch at work? Letting it run down before wearing it (as opposed to wearing it all the time and keeping it at optimal wind)? Become more sedentary?

Have you dropped the watch recently? Knocked it against a counter top or door jamb?

Not an exhaustive list above but all things that I'd look to before considering magnetization... The only watches I've had that have become magnetized gain so much time that you can see the seconds hand moving MUCH more quickly around the dial than normal...

Anyway, as you might infer, a 12 second per day gain does not sound like magnetization to me. I'd also hazard a guess that it's within spec for a movement that is based on the ETA 2824.



GarbanzoNegro said:


> So, my watch was running at +2 secs/day (some days at 0, some at +4). I was very happy with the performance, but then, suddenly, it started to run +12 secs/day for the last 2 weeks.
> 
> According to the Lepsi app, it seems to be magnetized.
> 
> ...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Darwin said:


> Magnetized watches gain minutes per _hour_, not 12 seconds a day. Over a 24 hour period a magnetized watch can gain _hours_. Have you varied your wearing pattern? Left the watch crown up on the nightstand where before you might have worn it through the night? Started swapping it out for a different watch at work? Letting it run down before wearing it (as opposed to wearing it all the time and keeping it at optimal wind)? Become more sedentary?
> 
> Have you dropped the watch recently? Knocked it against a counter top or door jamb?
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed explanation. That is exactly what I have always read about magnetization. Nevertheless, I used this app (Lepsi, that's why I asked about any experiences with it) and found that, according to it, my watch was magnetized. I had used the app before and the result was that the watch was not magnetized.

This evening I went to a local watch shop and they demagnetized it for free and in 5 seconds. Afterwards, I checked the app again and it said that there was not magnetism at all (see screenshot). So far, my experience.










Now, I will be monitoring the accuracy, since it used to be around +2 secs/day and then it went, all of a sudden, up to +12 secs/day, just in the middle of my holidays without varying any wearing pattern (I wear my watch 24 h/day). I just moved to different cities with different temperatures, humidity, etc and went through various airports. That is why I thought that the magnetization theory could be a possibility and it would be worth to walk to a store and check it. It is also stated on Ginault's web (I have never had such an issue with my Explorer and I have been wearing it 24/7 for approx 15 years), this issue with the magnetization.

Again, thanks for taking the time to answer to my question.

I will let you know how this evolves. If it does not get better, then I will contact (again) the EU service center and will ask them to regulate the watch, since it is still under warranty.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

+12 secs/day is still a good result imho for an automatic watch. My Ginault's accurancy is about +10 secs/day. I am fine with this result and there is no need in my opinion for additional regulation of the watch. Especially in consideration that I would have to send to the service center where it could get damaged much worse on the transport.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> +12 secs/day is still a good result imho for an automatic watch. My Ginault's accurancy is about +10 secs/day. I am fine with this result and there is no need in my opinion for additional regulation of the watch. Especially in consideration that I would have to send to the service center where it could get damaged much worse on the transport.


Agree. Nevertheless, this is not what Ginault states on its certificates. Moreover, my watch was running consistently +2-3 secs/day, so +12 is a big difference in comparison.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Demagnetizing the watch is easy and cheap enough to do. At least demagnetizing a watch is completely non-intrusive, so even if you are wasting your time, you aren't opening the watch case or potentially introducing issues.

That said, I agree with Darwin in that magnetized watches tend to have massive inaccuracies. The one time it happened to me, you could actually watch the minute hand move around the watch face.

I'd still give it a shot as it won't hurt the watch and just might help - you never know.

I don't think changes in environment would make a watch gain 10 seconds / day. Maybe the watch took a hit (bumped in the airplane or something) which made the adjustment go off a bit? If that was the case, I think the micro adjust screw on the 2824-2 is something like 10 sec's modification per hash mark (positive or negative).

Personally, I would suggest going the least invasive route first and see if that changes anything.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> Demagnetizing the watch is easy and cheap enough to do. At least demagnetizing a watch is completely non-intrusive, so even if you are wasting your time, you aren't opening the watch case or potentially introducing issues.
> 
> That said, I agree with Darwin in that magnetized watches tend to have massive inaccuracies. The one time it happened to me, you could actually watch the minute hand move around the watch face.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comment. Exactly that is what I thought: try the demagnetization route and, if this fails, contact Ginault's service center. I already sent mu watch once to have it regulated and was very happy with the service.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks for your comment. Exactly that is what I thought: try the demagnetization route and, if this fails, contact Ginault's service center. I already sent mu watch once to have it regulated and was very happy with the service.


I think magnetization can both happen very easily & have more subtle effects, see this thread (among others): https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/magnetism-really-easy-4692761.html


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Many thanks for the info!


Let me clarify a bit more.

The local Mall watch repairers probably can't help but a decent watchmaker will always have a demagnetizer on hand.

IF the problem is indeed magnetism then this takes a few seconds to do so the charge should be minimal but often the time variations may be due to some other problem within the movement.

BUT I have used the same ap to check for magnetism where my watches were showing variation from specs and where it has indicated a magnetized state I have used my de-magetizer and all times I have used it the regulation has come back to an acceptable rate.

So your easiest way may be to drop in to your local watchmaker for a check, if he tells you that he doesn't have a de-magnetizer then he probably isn't a watchmaker but just a battery changer so best take it elsewhere or get your own de-magnetizer.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Woops I missed a bunch of the posts so you have more than enough info.

Oh well time for a pic then.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Does anyone know if Ginault’s bracelet fits a Rolex Submariner ref. 14060/14060M?


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Does anyone know if Ginault's bracelet fits a Rolex Submariner ref. 14060/14060M?


The 16610/Ginault end links will not fit the 14060 case without adjustment, case height and lug holes location are not the same,

One option, use 14060 open endlinks with the Ginault bracelet.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kelt said:


> The 16610/Ginault end links will not fit the 14060 case without adjustment, case height and lug holes location are not the same,
> 
> One option, use 14060 open endlinks with the Ginault bracelet.


Thanks for your answer.

The Ginault bracelet I am referring to is the reference #94530G. Is it the same "16610/Ginault end links" you are talking about?

What do you mean by "14060 open endlinks"?

By the way, has the Ocean-Rover 181070LSILN been discontinued? I cannot find it on the website anymore...


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

I should have written "hollow end links" instead of open!

Check this:
https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/things-you-should-know-when-buying-a-submariner/


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kelt said:


> I should have written "hollow end links" instead of open!
> 
> Check this:
> https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/things-you-should-know-when-buying-a-submariner/


I think I understand. Thanks!


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> By the way, has the Ocean-Rover 181070LSILN been discontinued? I cannot find it on the website anymore...


no...

https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181070lsiln/

you can find it under 181070


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> no...
> 
> https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181070lsiln/
> 
> you can find it under 181070


True. Thanks for the hint. They have grouped all the 181070 references there.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Saturday with the Ginault Ocean Rover


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I've been lucky enough to have some time off this week so have enjoyed some nice scenery with the OR.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks for your comment. Exactly that is what I thought: try the demagnetization route and, if this fails, contact Ginault's service center. I already sent mu watch once to have it regulated and was very happy with the service.


any news on your issue? How did you proceed?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> any news on your issue? How did you proceed?


Thanks for asking.

It seems that the demagnetization worked, not only according to the app.

Here is the performance when magnetized (last measure):









And this is today's measure:


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Thanks for asking.
> 
> It seems that the demagnetization worked, not only according to the app.
> 
> ...


I am glad to hear that


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> I am glad to hear that


Thanks!

And it seems to get a little bit better:


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I wonder if the Ginault movement is more sensitive to becoming magnetized than others? There seems to have been a few situations like this (or maybe I am just being overly observant on this brand and all 2824-2's are equally sensitive). 

As Ginualt moves away from creating highly dimensionally accurate replications of classic Rolex designs, maybe they could incorporate some functional "upgrades" such as remaining true to the historic form but adding an anti-magnetic cage. 

MKii did this with their short-lived "Fulcrum" model. I think Ginault could do the same, but keep the Ocean Rover's more elegant dial.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I don't know if there are many brands telling about the risk of magnetizing the watch.

Ginault does explicitly (for good or bad):


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

I have an Ocean Rover coming today, so excited. Will post pics!


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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

You're going like it.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

horhay86 said:


> I have an Ocean Rover coming today, so excited. Will post pics!


Which model?

Waiting for the pics... ;-)

Mine says hi!


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Which model?
> 
> Waiting for the pics... ;-)
> 
> Mine says hi!


181070LSILN

My camera sucks and lighting was bad but here it is..
I really like it , wow 









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

horhay86 said:


> 181070LSILN


Enjoy it! Mine is the same reference.


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Enjoy it! Mine is the same reference.


Thank You! , looking forward to it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

A perfect morning.


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## johngwalker (Sep 17, 2018)

I am a long-time reader of these forums, but this is my first post, a quick "review" of my brand new Ginault Ocean Rover ("Blue Smurf," no date version). I am slightly OCD when it comes watches, and I am very pleased with this purchase. It is the most expensive watch I have bought to date, at approx. $1,000.00, but I think it was well worth it. All aspects are brilliantly and properly executed (band, case, bezel, crystal, indices, alignment, etc.). So far it is keeping very good time (though I have only owned it a few days). I had a difficult time choosing between the "gold sand" lume and the "blue smurf" version (Bgw9 lume). I ultimately chose the blue smurf, no date, as it combines the best elements of a classic Rolex sub, with a clean and modern look. I currently own four dive watches and love them all. However, the Ocean Rover is simply a notch above the rest. (See the pic of my current "lineup" below.) Thanks for reading!


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

It is a great watch. I think I would like a white second hand with a glowing dot.

That bracelet is the best I've ever had. Bought one for my speedmaster.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## MadMex (Jun 18, 2010)

The more I see this watch the more I like my Armida!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> It is a great watch. I think I would like a white second hand with a glowing dot.
> 
> That bracelet is the best I've ever had. Bought one for my speedmaster.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Agree. Would love to see this white second hand as an option.

I am so pleased with the clasp, that I have a really hard time wearing any other bracelet/strap.

Do you have a pic of your Speedmaster with this bracelet?

PS: edited to ask for a pic.


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## johngwalker (Sep 17, 2018)

I think my one recommendation would be to add a little red in the dial to play off the second hand. Perhaps “Ocean-Rover” in a matching red. But that is pretty picky. It is a beautiful watch.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Here is a pic...nope. won't upload. I'll try tonight

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

I had to shim the end links underneath









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## drwindsurf (Dec 6, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> I had to shim the end links underneath


That looks great Tony


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> I had to shim the end links underneath


Thanks for the pics. Very nice!


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

TonyDennison said:


> It is a great watch. I think I would like a white second hand with a glowing dot.
> 
> That bracelet is the best I've ever had. Bought one for my speedmaster.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I agree....The bracelet is amazingly well made....I wish I liked wearing a bracelet...I have mine on Brady sailcloth strap...I think I'm going to go to a leather now...great watch...more I wear it..the more I like it....nothing is for ever, but for now..."we" are very happy together


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

Can ONE order a bracelet only directly from Ginault?
I went and tried the bracelet on my explorer ii and that thing fits! Not perfect but i like it. Beats my cheap aftermarket ones i have. Love the bracelet.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

Yes order the watch with the strap you will be given change to add bracelet.

Delete the watch from your basket and walah

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

horhay86 said:


> Can ONE order a bracelet only directly from Ginault?
> I went and tried the bracelet on my explorer ii and that thing fits! Not perfect but i like it.


Amazing! I tried it on my Explorer and didn't fit. Guess I'll have to give it another try.


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## TonyDennison (Nov 3, 2017)

horhay86 said:


> Can ONE order a bracelet only directly from Ginault?
> I went and tried the bracelet on my explorer ii and that thing fits! Not perfect but i like it. Beats my cheap aftermarket ones i have. Love the bracelet.
> 
> 
> ...


If it is just rolling up, you need to shim with pl as tic underneath.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

TonyDennison said:


> If it is just rolling up, you need to shim with pl as tic underneath.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Thank you 

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Amazing! I tried it on my Explorer and didn't fit. Guess I'll have to give it another try.


I or II? Let me know how it works out!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

horhay86 said:


> I or II? Let me know how it works out!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


114270. I will.


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## johngwalker (Sep 17, 2018)

Saturday afternoon chilling...


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

horhay86 said:


> Can ONE order a bracelet only directly from Ginault?
> I went and tried the bracelet on my explorer ii and that thing fits! Not perfect but i like it. Beats my cheap aftermarket ones i have. Love the bracelet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


$229 Ouch! BUT..... MUCH cheaper alternative the the Rollie equivalent.


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

59er said:


> $229 Ouch! BUT..... MUCH cheaper alternative the the Rollie equivalent.


There's a 20% coupon, brings it to 183sh. I'm still thinking about it haha

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

horhay86 said:


> There's a 20% coupon, brings it to 183sh. I'm still thinking about it haha
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Yeah still worth considering as it is a beatiful bracelet/clasp.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

This variant is growing on me.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Still holding out for one of these in the current case though


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Have a great weekend!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> This variant is growing on me.


I don't think that is a variant available from Ginault. It looks like someone bought a green bezel insert and stuck it into one of Ginault's cyclops models.

I also disagree with the photo's implication of this modification being a "Fake Kermit". The Ginault branding and sword hands make it pretty clear this isn't a fake (or a remarkably poor one if you were to consider it an attempt at being a fake).

Honestly, I'd suggest that if someone took the green bezel off their mint green Squale 1545 20 ATMOs and stuck it on their 1545 Classic, you would have a much closer replication to a Kermit than with the Ginault. If replication of the Kermit look is what you are going for, then at least by using the Squale 1545 as your base you'd have the proper "mercedes" hands.

As far as I am aware, this is the only green bezel variant available from Ginault


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Just to add - I found the Youtube video where that photo was grabbed. The reviewer seems relatively positive towards Ginault (some were kind of left handed compliments, but overall positive).

What surprised me most, however, is his claim that Ginault provided him with the watch. As far as I am aware, this is the first Youtube channel owner / "professional" reviewer to receive a sample for review. Every other reviewer I am aware of had to purchase their example (or have it provided to them from a buyer).

This makes me wonder if this is just the beginning of this policy change and Ginault start sending out samples to various blogs and reviewers.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Just to add - I found the Youtube video where that photo was grabbed. The reviewer seems relatively positive towards Ginault (some were kind of left handed compliments, but overall positive).
> 
> What surprised me most, however, is his claim that Ginault provided him with the watch. As far as I am aware, this is the first Youtube channel owner / "professional" reviewer to receive a sample for review. Every other reviewer I am aware of had to purchase their example (or have it provided to them from a buyer).
> 
> This makes me wonder if this is just the beginning of this policy change and Ginault start sending out samples to various blogs and reviewers.


Hope it isn't. I paid for mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> Hope it isn't. I paid for mine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Watch the video when you get a moment. He doesn't come right out and say he received the watch at no cost, but it is strongly implied. It is also a model that is not currently for sale by Ginault (at least not on their website that I could see).

I actually thought the "discount for honest review" model was a novel perspective on what we've historically seen within the micro watch community. I'd be somewhat disappointed if they change, but I guess I'd understand the pressure to do so.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I took it off the black Brady Sailcloth and now its on this nice leather and its really quite comfy and looks great. Need to get a deployant...wish Ginault made one...you know it would be A+...I also think I may need to upgrade to the date version....I'm so on the fence...but loving wearing this at the moment in the rotation.


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

Another one of mine today, I'm enjoying it a lot so far..

BTW reading those comments on the youtube reviews make chuckle.. 









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> Just to add - I found the Youtube video where that photo was grabbed. The reviewer seems relatively positive towards Ginault (some were kind of left handed compliments, but overall positive).
> 
> What surprised me most, however, is his claim that Ginault provided him with the watch. As far as I am aware, this is the first Youtube channel owner / "professional" reviewer to receive a sample for review. Every other reviewer I am aware of had to purchase their example (or have it provided to them from a buyer).
> 
> This makes me wonder if this is just the beginning of this policy change and Ginault start sending out samples to various blogs and reviewers.


Yep, he was given the watch to review. No idea if he has to return it though. It could be a way for Ginault to field test different variants. Personally I think the green bezel looks the muttz nutz. 
If he did he not have 'the real thing' I think his opinion would have been different. There was very little discussion of the intrinsic value and quality of execution. Just really a snobby prejudiced viewpoint that 'its not a Rolex' and that it made him feel bad if others thought it was a cheap replica/fake. I think Ginault stands on its own merits. I'm still blown over by the time keeping accuracy after 18 months ownership. +1-2 s/d. Incredible and out performs my luxury timepieces costing 10x more.

Update
OK, B&J just released a second video with his honest assessment of the watch. Don't think he realizes it can be bought for a lot less than retail. Even I wouldn't pay retail and I love my smurfy G-watch. And yes he was given the watch he reviewed.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Amazing! I tried it on my Explorer and didn't fit. Guess I'll have to give it another try.


Which model Explorer. Would love to know if the Ginault bracelet fits the Explorer 1 114270


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Which model Explorer. Would love to know if the Ginault bracelet fits the Explorer 1 114270


I tried it on my 114270 and did not fit. Will give it another try.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Well, I tried and failed. :-(

Here you can see the fit if the Ginault bracelet and the Explorer. The first one is without having inserted the pins. The hole does not seem to be centered, so that the pin cannot be inserted, which, hopefully, can be seen in the other pics. 

































Furthermore, the upper part does not fit perfectly. 

















Last, two pics comparing the location of the holes in the Explorer and the Ginault. 

















Maybe someone more skilled or with other pins can make it fit.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yes you can see in one of the pics that the center part of the end link is sitting too high and interferes with the bezel so that may be stopping the end link from moving closer the the case. Without the springbar fitted can you move the endlink down away from the bezel and if so does that center the holes any better?

I believe the Rolex and likely the Ginault uses 2mm springbars so using a thinner springbar may allow enough of a drop to get it in but not sure.

Also I've had watches that are VERY difficult to get the springbar ends to seat into the hole but with some manipulation with a small screwdriver could be made to slip in but care needs to be taken not to break the tiny screwdriver end or worse scratch the case or bracelet.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> Without the springbar fitted can you move the endlink down away from the bezel and if so does that center the holes any better?


The bracelet has a very tight fit. Once in place, there is very little to none play possible.



59er said:


> Also I've had watches that are VERY difficult to get the springbar ends to seat into the hole but with some manipulation with a small screwdriver could be made to slip in but care needs to be taken not to break the tiny screwdriver end or worse scratch the case or bracelet.


I thought about this possibility, but I am a bit clumsy and dis not want to risk a screwdriver, the bracelet or scratching the case.

One day I may replace the clasp of the Explorer bracelet and put the Ginault's.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

several eBay sellers have glidelock clasps of different sizes

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-mad...372932?hash=item3d72e14cc4:g:RK4AAOSwDftbkN6O

With or without bracelet

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-...47909464?epid=14007699337&hash=item2a68dc8758


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> several eBay sellers have glidelock clasps of different sizes


Thanks for the info!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Maybe a thinner springbar with a little curvature might be the best option. From the pic the hole is visible so may be accessible. The Ginault is an upgrade for the original bracelet so worth pursuing IMO.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Maybe a thinner springbar with a little curvature might be the best option. From the pic the hole is visible so may be accessible. The Ginault is an upgrade for the original bracelet so worth pursuing IMO.


That's a good idea!

I'm not sure if the Ginault's an upgrade, but the clasp adjustability is a dream.

After 1 year of owning the Ginault, I have used the clasp more than the micro adjustments in the Explorer's clasp.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Gentlemen,

I am proud to claim that in less than one month (11/03/18) I will have owned my Ocean Rover for one year. Even bigger shock? I have worn only my Ocean Rover over that year. Why is this a big deal? Because I flipped watches like a short order cook from 2011 to 2017. I can't even begin to tell you how many watches I owned in those 6 years. Just prior to purchasing this pre-owned Ocean Rover I asked myself what I really wanted because the flipping was insane. I was never owning one watch long enough to get to know it, to call it mine, to become associated with "it". I decided that what I really wanted was a classic, solid and traditional watch. The Ocean Rover became the object of my desire. Funny thing is...ever since I put it on I have had no desire for another watch. I did purchase a hand-wind Hamilton Khaki Field but that was in honor of my grandfather who served in World War II and wore his United States Navy issued Hamilton until his death and was buried with it.

Anyway, just wanted to say that and encourage you all to keep the positive Ginault vibes flowing.

Peace out!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am proud to claim that in less than one month (11/03/18) I will have owned my Ocean Rover for one year. Even bigger shock? I have worn only my Ocean Rover over that year. Why is this a big deal? Because I flipped watches like a short order cook from 2011 to 2017. I can't even begin to tell you how many watches I owned in those 6 years. Just prior to purchasing this pre-owned Ocean Rover I asked myself what I really wanted because the flipping was insane. I was never owning one watch long enough to get to know it, to call it mine, to become associated with "it". I decided that what I really wanted was a classic, solid and traditional watch. The Ocean Rover became the object of my desire. Funny thing is...ever since I put it on I have had no desire for another watch. I did purchase a hand-wind Hamilton Khaki Field but that was in honor of my grandfather who served in World War II and wore his United States Navy issued Hamilton until his death and was buried with it.
> 
> ...


Still rocking mine as a daily wear during the working week after 18 months ownership. I have a couple of other watches that retail for 10x more and in terms of accuracy they can't compete with the Ginault. Its been a solid performer and I have no worries about the movement. It just checks so many boxes for what I consider to be the perfect all round watch. And I never tire of staring into that enamel dial especially in sunlight.
The only thing I would change is to have an AR coating on the underside of the crystal.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

As a Big fan of MilSub homages, and owner of several (dozen) I passed on the ginault as I believe the OWC 5517 is a better watch with a better movement, the Soprod A-10, which is a Swiss made version of a high-beat Seiko design.


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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

rosborn said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am proud to claim that in less than one month (11/03/18) I will have owned my Ocean Rover for one year. Even bigger shock? I have worn only my Ocean Rover over that year. Why is this a big deal? Because I flipped watches like a short order cook from 2011 to 2017. I can't even begin to tell you how many watches I owned in those 6 years. Just prior to purchasing this pre-owned Ocean Rover I asked myself what I really wanted because the flipping was insane. I was never owning one watch long enough to get to know it, to call it mine, to become associated with "it". I decided that what I really wanted was a classic, solid and traditional watch. The Ocean Rover became the object of my desire. Funny thing is...ever since I put it on I have had no desire for another watch. I did purchase a hand-wind Hamilton Khaki Field but that was in honor of my grandfather who served in World War II and wore his United States Navy issued Hamilton until his death and was buried with it.
> 
> ...


Beautiful! I don't wear mine exclusively but it's a fond part of my regular rotation. The pride and sense of 'attachment' is definitely there! High five!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

rosborn said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am proud to claim that in less than one month (11/03/18) I will have owned my Ocean Rover for one year. Even bigger shock? I have worn only my Ocean Rover over that year. Why is this a big deal? Because I flipped watches like a short order cook from 2011 to 2017. I can't even begin to tell you how many watches I owned in those 6 years. Just prior to purchasing this pre-owned Ocean Rover I asked myself what I really wanted because the flipping was insane. I was never owning one watch long enough to get to know it, to call it mine, to become associated with "it". I decided that what I really wanted was a classic, solid and traditional watch. The Ocean Rover became the object of my desire. Funny thing is...ever since I put it on I have had no desire for another watch. I did purchase a hand-wind Hamilton Khaki Field but that was in honor of my grandfather who served in World War II and wore his United States Navy issued Hamilton until his death and was buried with it.
> 
> ...


Yep I have had a 10 watch box for years which up until the OR was constantly being changed with one out/one in but since the OR I just don't flip my watches anymore and wear the OR most times except at work as I am VERY rough on watches at work due to the nature of what I do and simply don't want to mess up the OR.

Still loving mine.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

yankeexpress said:


> As a Big fan of MilSub homages, and owner of several (dozen) I passed on the ginault as I believe the OWC 5517 is a better watch with a better movement, the Soprod A-10, which is a Swiss made version of a high-beat Seiko design.


I'll reply here versus the Steinhart versus Squale versus Ginault thread.

I am a big fan of Dan's work and have owned 3 OWC's including the latest A-10 powered version with the more original case design leveraging torx screws.

I'll agree that Dan's OWC is a great watch and has features (such as the screw adjustable bezel a'la Sinn) which make it a great beach / dive watch for ease of cleaning.

I'm also a HUGE Seiko fan (making up most of my collection with everything from a SKX007 to an SLA017) but I have to say the A-10 has been less than optimal IMO. Mine had to go back to Dan / Daz twice for repair (each time the repair was covered by Dan, but the shipping to Australia was on me - not exactly inexpensive). I believe certain batches of A-10's were over oiled at the factory as Steinhart had similar issues. Daz ended up completely disassembling mine, cleaning, and re-oiling it. Running fine since.

The Ginault case is much closer to the 5 digit Sub design and much nicer than Dan's original OWC offerings (I won't compare them to Dan's newer offerings as they are apples and oranges with Dan deviating strongly from the Rolex design) . The "top hat" crystal on the Ginault is a very cool detail that is reminiscent of older Subs. The Ginault's "gold sand lume" is longer lasting than my OWC's, and is actually one of the nicest "faux vintage" lume's I've seen from any watch brand, luxury brands included. I also prefer the Ginault's dial finish and applied indices. Whoever they are getting their dials from, they are very good at their job.

My Ginault (and I was an early buyer, so they may have upgraded by now) suffered a movement failure as well. One nice thing about Ginault being in the US is the return for repair was very inexpensive for shipping. Ginault also has an EU and (I think) Asia service center. This is a nice touch I wish Dan could establish as well.

What could Ginault do better in my opinion? They could delete some of the dial text, drill the lugs, and use a fully indexed bezel.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Charging:









Charged:


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## FordHammie (Nov 24, 2017)

I love this watch so much! Thx for the post Ginault!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

ive been wearing this almost constantly for 11 months. I just replaced the bezel insert from black to blue/gold last week. This is certainly my favorite watch

Im highly considering another rover, the 181175lslin


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Has anyone noticed the newer models have thicker clasps? Having owned an older and newer model, I confirmed this with emails to Ginault. I definitely don't like the thicker clasp. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Has anyone noticed the newer models have thicker clasps? Having owned an older and newer model, I confirmed this with emails to Ginault. I definitely don't like the thicker clasp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you have any pics?

I have the 181070LSILN (which I would consider as an old model) and the clasp, IMO, is already quite thick. I understand why you don't like the thicker version.

Any other differences apart of the thickness?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Has anyone noticed the newer models have thicker clasps? Having owned an older and newer model, I confirmed this with emails to Ginault. I definitely don't like the thicker clasp.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Besides the thickness, have you noticed if the newer clasp has better finishing to avoid the inevitable scratches on the adjacent links? I think this was a regular criticism of the earlier version (don't know myself as I only wear my watch on straps).


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

along with a watch i have a knife in the pocket so this makes my favorite pairing. Knife is a gareth bull small shamwari.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

nepatriot said:


> I agree, the Ginault is arguable one of the best homages as far as looks. And after all, isn't that the main proposition when buying a homage? The only strike against it is the cost.
> 
> But they can charge what ever the market will bear. As a start up, from a marketing perspective, they seem to have achieved one of most critical steps, using one of the most challenging and dangerous tactics: a large price increase. It's hard because start ups often start low to attract consumers, but what ever you start at, you essentially establish that as the price. Consumers more often than not don't take kindly to the attempt to re-estabish the baseline.
> 
> These guys did it by trying to create a perception of a higher base, then discount by 50% to get trial, in return for consumer reviews. While this is a common practice, still, no matter what method you choose, it is always a very challenging move - taking the price increase - to actually pull off. These are the shoals that are littered with the wreckage of start up's. But it seems that some customers have come back to the trough and bought at the new price, and their fierce loyalty is attracting new consumers to pay full price. This is a very positive milestone for their business plan.


excellent points. I bought an OR almost a year ago and now im planning on another. This would make my collection two ginaults and one casio oceanus. I wear my rover so much i havnt really shopped around. The casio is an excellent compliment as it stays charged and syncs to atomic time, so its always on in the rare event im not wearing my Ginault. Im pretty confident only another ginault will compete effectively for wrist time and the value of the three watches still doesnt get me into rolex territory and I still consider the servicing of those awesome in house movements out of my price range, never mind the watch itself.

I got my first one %40 off no review needed, and while ill take whatever discount i can get again i will pay more. Its very well done and holds time well enough. Ive never measured it but i tend to reset it about once a month and it tends to run a little slow. It takes a few weeks or more for me to really notice that its time to reset vs watches where i could perceive a variation on accuracy in 1-4 days.

For me making that price leap is eased by how vocal ginault was about the steep discounts being temporary and they have decreased the discount just as they said. So theyre not being dodgy and misleading about this. Its pretty weak to complain about the price because they were selling them for $550 whatever time ago. Its like theyre mad about the company for being very clear and transparent about something while being critical about information not initially communicated clearly.

The price hike is acceptable to me because how they communicated it would happen and then did happen and progressively, they arent going back and forth on pricing, and how well made it is, the fit and finish is really damn good. The watch feels great and looks great and has been very durable. The watch still feels well worth the price.

TLDR: Youre post hit the nail on the head


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

cwfmon said:


> Here are more pics of my dual AR ocean rover


Every single picture is amazing and im going to have to get that done on one of them when i pick up the second one. Thats one modern feature they should have gone with, though glare doesnt bother me day to day.

I can only imagine how stunning yours looks in person if the stock crystal is just fine with me


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

also mine will be going for another rough ride tonight. Ill be running and stacking freight at a warehouse and i typically wear the ginault like i do everywhere else.

Probably the wildest place its been is in my belgian malinois mouth when he was a younger pup. Goes into mud pretty often, I run a scotchbright pad on it and some polish every once in a while. I spiff it up a bit but i never bother to make it perfect.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Besides the thickness, have you noticed if the newer clasp has better finishing to avoid the inevitable scratches on the adjacent links? I think this was a regular criticism of the earlier version (don't know myself as I only wear my watch on straps).


I did not notice a difference there at all

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> Every single picture is amazing and im going to have to get that done on one of them when i pick up the second one. Thats one modern feature they should have gone with, though glare doesnt bother me day to day.
> 
> I can only imagine how stunning yours looks in person if the stock crystal is just fine with me


The glare drives me crazy

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Dec1968 said:


> The glare drives me crazy
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It does make it more difficult to see the dial on sunny days.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

rosborn said:


> It does make it more difficult to see the dial on sunny days.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Agree. And under direct artificial light. That's why the mod with the flat crystal and inner AR sounds so interesting.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Agree. And under direct artificial light. That's why the mod with the flat crystal and inner AR sounds so interesting.


Even with domed crystal AR will help (underside only). Its really my only bug bare. I find the glare most irritating under fluorescent interior lighting


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I like the crystal the way it is, with no AR. I have plenty of watches with AR (underside only); IMO, it helps in some situations but detracts in others.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Avo said:


> I like the crystal the way it is, with no AR. I have plenty of watches with AR (underside only); IMO, it helps in some situations but detracts in others.


totally agree with you


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Guess it depends how well its implemented. On my JLC Geophysic its on the underside, subtle and practically invisible. The MC Sector dial chronograph appears to have no AR treatment and can glare in certain light. I have never observed any negatives with the JLC coating. Wish I could say the same for the AR on the Breitling Aerospace I used to own....awful


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

are you also able to hear the rotor of your Ginault Ocean Rover when you shake it close to your ear? I have to admit that my other 2824 watches are less noisy.


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

Shizmosis said:


> are you also able to hear the rotor of your Ginault Ocean Rover when you shake it close to your ear? I have to admit that my other 2824 watches are less noisy.


Why would you do such a thing? That is really strange. Who puts their watch right up to their ear to see if they can hear the rotor?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Shizmosis said:


> are you also able to hear the rotor of your Ginault Ocean Rover when you shake it close to your ear? I have to admit that my other 2824 watches are less noisy.


Mine had that issue - sent it to Ginault. While they claimed 'nothing was wrong', they still replaced the entire movement.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

rosborn said:


> Why would you do such a thing? That is really strange. Who puts their watch right up to their ear to see if they can hear the rotor?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


If you can hear it - even if it's close - that's not good. The reason you do that is that you hear it from further away so you bring it closer to verify you're hearing it correctly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Mine had that issue - sent it to Ginault. While they claimed 'nothing was wrong', they still replaced the entire movement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


how wos the noise after you have received the watch with the replaced movement back?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> If you can hear it - even if it's close - that's not good. The reason you do that is that you hear it from further away so you bring it closer to verify you're hearing it correctly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct ;-) Thank you for for pointing out.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Compared to the ceramic bearing rotor in my JLC Geophysic the Ginault is mouse fart quiet.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Shizmosis said:


> how wos the noise after you have received the watch with the replaced movement back?


Gone - works flawlessly

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

My one year warranty period is about to begin, so that I will start thinking about potential mods:
- flat crystal: which crystal would fit? Where can I look for it? If I consider AR, it would be only on the underside. Pros/cons?
- second hand: would like to have a silver hand with BGW9, so that I can kind of updress the watch. Again, any place where I can look for it? Anything that I have to watch out before buying it?

For any of these mods I will have to find a local watchmaker. 

Furthermore, it would be great if I could buy all the stuff from EU, since this is where I am living and would avoid import duties, taxes, etc. 

Thanks in advance for your input. 

Best regards,


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

And a pic.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

andyk8 said:


> Of course the VAT would still be there but Ginault could offer the the watches at a better price.


Except they have to recoup the costs of a second facility, payroll, payroll taxes, etc.

Take a deeper dive into the economics of your query and realize the costs will increase....a bunch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

rosborn said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I am proud to claim that in less than one month (11/03/18) I will have owned my Ocean Rover for one year. Even bigger shock? I have worn only my Ocean Rover over that year. Why is this a big deal? Because I flipped watches like a short order cook from 2011 to 2017. I can't even begin to tell you how many watches I owned in those 6 years. Just prior to purchasing this pre-owned Ocean Rover I asked myself what I really wanted because the flipping was insane. I was never owning one watch long enough to get to know it, to call it mine, to become associated with "it". I decided that what I really wanted was a classic, solid and traditional watch. The Ocean Rover became the object of my desire. Funny thing is...ever since I put it on I have had no desire for another watch. I did purchase a hand-wind Hamilton Khaki Field but that was in honor of my grandfather who served in World War II and wore his United States Navy issued Hamilton until his death and was buried with it.
> 
> ...


Agree....I'm on my second Smurf OR....I really appreciate the build quality and the time keeping. I sold my first because I just didn't like the bracelet....it was great and a work of art, but I'm just a strap guy...my current OR is on a strap and I couldn't be happier....I wore a Blancpain Flyback 2185 for 14-years and loved and bonded w/it completely...traded a Rolex Sub + $$ for it at the time...LOL....I've been trying to replace the 2185 and this is the only piece I've really enjoyed enough to keep it on. I'm now thinking of getting rid of it for the sole reason that I'm seriously considering the OR Smurf date version. This one just runs so darn good, I'm hoping if I get another I'll get the same time quality. Great watch that has provided me a lot of enjoyment.


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

The Rover is sporting some Scurfa rubber today. Wasn't sure if I'd like it, but proves just as comfortable as the bracelet we all love so much.

The black dial looks awesome with the black strap. Well built, comfortable, good looking and $23.......winner!


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## rosborn (Oct 30, 2011)

LARufCTR said:


> Agree....I'm on my second Smurf OR....I really appreciate the build quality and the time keeping. I sold my first because I just didn't like the bracelet....it was great and a work of art, but I'm just a strap guy...my current OR is on a strap and I couldn't be happier....I wore a Blancpain Flyback 2185 for 14-years and loved and bonded w/it completely...traded a Rolex Sub + $$ for it at the time...LOL....I've been trying to replace the 2185 and this is the only piece I've really enjoyed enough to keep it on. I'm now thinking of getting rid of it for the sole reason that I'm seriously considering the OR Smurf date version. This one just runs so darn good, I'm hoping if I get another I'll get the same time quality. Great watch that has provided me a lot of enjoyment.


I too am thinking about selling mt OR. I prefer the no date version and didn't even truly consider the date/no date feature when I purchased mine pre-owned. It really isn't that big of a deal but why have something you don't need and never use. I always know what the date is...I write it on every page of field notes I write. I absolutely love the Ocean Rover and would only replace my date version with a no date version.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

ChristoO said:


> View attachment 13602119
> 
> 
> The Rover is sporting some Scurfa rubber today. Wasn't sure if I'd like it, but proves just as comfortable as the bracelet we all love so much.


Looks great!

Have you tried to put the Ginault bracelet on the Scurfa?


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Looks great!
> 
> Have you tried to put the Ginault bracelet on the Scurfa?


Thanks. I was actually a little surprised that it looks as good as it does. Thought maybe the Ginault was too refined for a rubber strap. Turns out they go pretty good together.

I did try the bracelet on the Diver One. Doesn't fit. The curve on the end links aren't quite right, so I'm looking forward to the dedicated Scurfa bracelet that's currently in the works. Paul claims early next year.

The Ginault bracelet has found it's way onto my new Seaforth. That's nearly a perfect match and really brings it up a level. I really just need to break down and buy an extra Ginault bracelet and an extra Scurfa strap.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

ChristoO said:


> Thanks. I was actually a little surprised that it looks as good as it does. Thought maybe the Ginault was too refined for a rubber strap. Turns out they go pretty good together.
> 
> I did try the bracelet on the Diver One. Doesn't fit. The curve on the end links aren't quite right, so I'm looking forward to the dedicated Scurfa bracelet that's currently in the works. Paul claims early next year.
> 
> The Ginault bracelet has found it's way onto my new Seaforth. That's nearly a perfect match and really brings it up a level. I really just need to break down and buy an extra Ginault bracelet and an extra Scurfa strap.


Agree. I also think that the Ginault goes very well with any strap, but the bracelet is so comfortable... 

BTW, thanks for taking the time to answer my question!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Still the favorite.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

We're coming up to the 2 year anniversary of the OR release. How do owners feel about the watch now that the honeymoon period is well and truly over. Personally its still my daily driver getting more wrist time than any of my other watches. Its picked up a few love marks and has been worn on a couple of different leather straps. Movement still performs like a champ, keeping +1 to 1.5s/d if worn daily, consistently. Truly an awesome watch. 

Still waiting for that Silent Service JM................


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> We're coming up to the 2 year anniversary of the OR release. How do owners feel about the watch now that the honeymoon period is well and truly over. Personally its still my daily driver getting more wrist time than any of my other watches. Its picked up a few love marks and has been worn on a couple of different leather straps. Movement still performs like a champ, keeping +1 to 1.5s/d if worn daily, consistently. Truly an awesome watch.
> 
> Still waiting for that Silent Service JM................


I'm still wearing my OG no date golden sand lume from the very first release. Wore it yesterday and I still appreciate it's nearly perfect proportions and lovely crystal.

I am waiting on hearing about that GMT they discussed.

I'd be throwing them money if they recreated a Pan-AM model with that gold sand lume and applied indices with a Pepsi bezel insert. Bonus points if they could modify their movement for a GMT with a jumping hour hand (as found in Rolex, certain Omega, and Alpina GMT's - just about a perfect travel's GMT design).


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm still wearing my OG no date golden sand lume from the very first release. Wore it yesterday and I still appreciate it's nearly perfect proportions and lovely crystal.
> 
> I am waiting on hearing about that GMT they discussed.
> 
> I'd be throwing them money if they recreated a Pan-AM model with that gold sand lume and applied indices with a Pepsi bezel insert. Bonus points if they could modify their movement for a GMT with a jumping hour hand (as found in Rolex, certain Omega, and Alpina GMT's - just about a perfect travel's GMT design).


GMT would be a worthy addition. Just keep the enamel dial, applied indices, sword hands and NO cyclops. Underside AR coating too please.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Still liking mine a lot, though it's been bumped out of constant use by newer purchases. But if I ever went all the way down to one watch, it would be the Ginault Ocean Rover.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yep still my most worn and loved watch.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Count me in!


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## JohnBPittsburgh (Jun 18, 2017)

I regret selling mine  It really is the perfect watch. The watch I skeptically purchased, turned out to be one of my most worn watches (anytime I went somewhere nice, I grabbed the OR). 
On wrist it kept excellent time, the few interactions with the brand they were great to deal with, although I never used the glidelock it was fun to play with, and it was just a fun watch to wear!!!

I wore it for Christmas last year!! I hope the new owner is still enjoying it!!


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Mine is still a key piece for me although it looks a little different from original.

One of the first batch of 8 with BGW9 lume, drilled lugs, Mercedes hands and 2xAR flat sapphire.


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

Still one of my favorites, was thinking of selling it to fund another piece but couldn't do it!









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## ChristoO (Dec 27, 2012)

I go through cycle where it sits for a bit then I work it back into the rotation. Each time it comes back into the mix I re-appreciate the superior build quality, the details of the dial, the great bracelet and the easy to wear size. 

Yep....pretty tough not to really dig this one.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm still tempted, even after the fiasco attempt few months ago. Might think about it if I manage to unload a few pieces from my collection and will keep my eyes peeled for good 2nd hand options.

Does anyone remember what was the deal on black Friday last year, by the way?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I bought it to see how this size and design fit me and all I can say is that I am so pleased with this watch, that I am struggling to find a rational argument that convinces me to buy a Submariner (5 digit ones are, IMO, expensive compared to the 6 digit ones, which are almost impossible to buy from an AD in a short time of period).


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## ssmith3046 (Jun 21, 2015)

Where mine all the time. Comfortable on the wrist and accurate time keeper.


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## blackcoffee (Oct 5, 2018)

The way you all praise these watches, I'm afraid I'll have too high hope when mine comes...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I bought it to see how this size and design fit me and all I can say is that I am so pleased with this watch, that I am struggling to find a rational argument that convinces me to buy a Submariner (5 digit ones are, IMO, expensive compared to the 6 digit ones, which are almost impossible to buy from an AD in a short time of period).


I will never buy a Submariner, unless Rolex decides to make one with a sword hour hand, the 5-digit case, and the glidelock bracelet.

I'm not holding my breath.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

All this talk is making me miss my OR.

I leant it to my 20 year old nephew back in August since I wanted him to give it some wrist time. Now I'm waiting till we meet again so I can get it back! Below is the last pic I had with it back in July.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> I will never buy a Submariner, unless Rolex decides to make one with a sword hour hand, the 5-digit case, and the glidelock bracelet.
> 
> I'm not holding my breath.


I could live without the sword hand, but then, what would be the point of spending x times more in the Rolex? I am still finding it difficult to convince myself. But believe me, I am trying hard. ;-)


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

ChristoO said:


> I go through cycle where it sits for a bit then I work it back into the rotation. Each time it comes back into the mix I re-appreciate the superior build quality, the details of the dial, the great bracelet and the easy to wear size.
> 
> Yep....pretty tough not to really dig this one.


Also appreciate the quality and easy to wear size so it gets worn a lot! Doesn't concern me what others think of the Ginault. I wore my Kingston for a couple years straight and nobody ever noticed it. A few weeks ago the cashier at Petsmart asked if my 10+ year old Bulova Marine Star was a James Bond Seamaster!



My Bond Bulova!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I could live without the sword hand, but then, what would be the point of spending x times more in the Rolex? I am still finding it difficult to convince myself. But believe me, I am trying hard. ;-)


There is no point, IMO. Even if Rolex eventually made the watch I want, I would likely just keep my OR &#8230; (but then again if they also put on a ceramic bezel without minute marks, then I probably won't be able to keep the money from flying out of my wallet &#8230


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Interesting comments about the Ginault and Rolex etc. I was never into dive watches until about 2 years ago. Never really noticed the Sub - wasn't into Rolex. I bought the Ginault about the middle of last year based on this thread and got the 50% discount. Loved the watch. I think it's really well made and great proportions (I guess there's a reason they copied the 5 digit sub), looks great, good value. I had it for about a year. Never grew tired of it. But it did start my journey into dive watches. I sold it for a couple of reasons: 1) there more I looked at dive watches the more I felt it was too much of a homage to the sub (not judging, just how I ended up feeling). If you put on Mercedes hands and changed the name on the dial it could almost be a replica. I know ginault are pretty open about trying to replicate the sub dimensions and design. They did an awesome job. I do hope they come out with some more original watches as they have great quality for the price. and 2) I picked up a Tudor BB58! And then I quickly (4 weeks later) had the chance to get a SubC (totally unplanned), so sold the BB58 to fund it. 

Of course the Sub is not worth 6 times the price of the Ginault, but it's definitely feels better made, feels more robust, while also feeling way more luxurious. That's comparing to a brand new SubC. I've not compared directly to a 5 digit sub, but I'm sure I'd prefer the glidelock knock off/solid bracelet over the older Rolex hollow centre link non adjustable clasp combination.

I keep checking their website to see what new is coming out - if they branch a bit further away from the homage style I'll probably pick up one. Am looking at the Monta Oceanking as well.


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

Hi guys,

I finally ordered my new Ginault OR with date and cyclops after I sold my domed nodate one. I also sold all of my other watches (kept only the cheapest Casio), because I realized Ginault probably made me one watch guy.

I have a question - did anyone swap the movement for the real ETA 2824? I'm really an amateur when it comes to watch movements, I've read that some H4 cannon pinion (something with the hands) has to be swapped to make it work?

To make my Ginault THE ONLY WATCH it would be really nice to have a real ETA inside..

*Here is my plan*:

Since the movement is probably the only weak point of this fantastic watch, I was thinking maybe next year when my warranty will come to end I'll try to purchase the Steinhart Ocean One 39 - maybe used 1-2yrs for let's about 300$, because there is an *ETA 2824 Elaboré* inside. Then I'll get the movements swapped. Then sell the Steinhart with the Ginault movement for let's say 100-150$, have a *Ginault with an ETA 2824 Elaboré* and be completely satisfied 

So my question is - would that be possible? I suppose I won't need any more parts, because both watches can keep their cannon pinions and hands..? Maybe just the date wheel should be also swapped, because it might be a little different (the Ginault one will look better I suppose).

Thank you for your answers!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr. Igelit said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I finally ordered my new Ginault OR with date and cyclops after I sold my domed nodate one. I also sold all of my other watches (kept only the cheapest Casio), because I realized Ginault probably made me one watch guy.
> 
> ...


First of all, congratulations! You have a hell of a watch incoming.

Second, you are overthinking it. The movement is as good as any ETA, if not better. In any case, the only change that would improve it would (maybe) be either a Top Grade ETA or even a Chronometer Grade ETA, but still the gain would not be significant except for the Chronometer one (which is quite expensive as it's numbered and not easy to found). Either case, you don't need a full watch to take the movement off, you can buy just the movement from Offrei in USA or Cousins.co.uk in EU (any other shops, please feel free to add to the list).

Anyway, the movement is very good, probably better than an elabore ETA whose only improvement over the normal ETA is a better shock absorber, as far as I know.

Just enjoy it until the movement does weird things, and then maybe consider swapping, that's my advice.


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

Thank you for your answer! Yes, I know, I wore the old Ocean Rover most of the year. I sold it only because I need (and like) the date and flat crystal 

Of course, I'm just thinking a bit further, maybe if the movement starts to behave strange after the warranty expires. It may be easier to just replace the whole movement than trying to fix the Ginault one. Because let's be honest, if I just paid 1248$ for the OR, additional 200$ for the movement is not such a disaster, especially if I consider it as my main (and probably the only one) watch...

I just looked at the cousins website and they sell the standard ETA, right? And there are probably the shipping costs to CZ etc... I was thinking the Elaboré from Steinhart is just a little bit better - even if it's just the shock absorber. And if I buy the Steinhart for 350$ and sell it for 150$, I can get the Elaboré for 200$ without need to get the pinions etc. And maybe make someone happy with the 150$ Steinhart 

Anyway this is all just my theoretical thoughts, of course I'll enjoy the new OR the way it'll come. I was just curious if it's possible..


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm not an expert but I think you can buy Top Grade ETA movements off eBay. I would do some research here at the forum. Tbh, a Ginault with a top grade ETA is probably at step above most mid tier Swiss watches for 50% of the price...

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

Yes, with a TOP ETA it would be really a hell of a watch...

Do you think maybe this one is ok? Since I'm not an expert at all, it's difficult to recognize what is the "real deal"


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

The Ginault movement is ok.....and I mean that in the sense of it being average. I do not full my trust a company that won't be transparent about sourcing and all parts inside the watch. Why not be transparent about everything?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Well, to be honest not a single manufacturer will give you the full source of their suppliers as this is in most cases a deeply closed secret and has many NDAs involved from both sides. They seem to like the hype speech, yes, but I can't blame them for not disclosing a list of suppliers.


Dec1968 said:


> The Ginault movement is ok.....and I mean that in the sense of it being average. I do not full my trust a company that won't be transparent about sourcing and all parts inside the watch. Why not be transparent about everything?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> Well, to be honest not a single manufacturer will give you the full source of their suppliers as this is in most cases a deeply closed secret and has many NDAs involved from both sides. They seem to like the hype speech, yes, but I can't blame them for not disclosing a list of suppliers.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


There's 'not disclosing' and there is 'intentional lack of transparency' when asked. They've been asked about a great many things and refuse to disclose some concerns we as buyers have.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

It's been a while, but if memory serves, they said the bracelet and shock absorbers were from China, the springs and jewels from Switzerland, and the balance from suppliers in the States. The entire Swiss industry is less transparent than that. But there are plenty of threads to mine on this question.


Dec1968 said:


> There's 'not disclosing' and there is 'intentional lack of transparency' when asked. They've been asked about a great many things and refuse to disclose some concerns we as buyers have.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I don't know where my car/motorcycle/TV/toaster's components were made, their advertising blurb was probably a bunch of half truths, I have no plans to change the internal components with Swiss/american/Japanese/elabore parts as they all function as intended and have no interest in whether the sellers are transparent in all of their published material so I see no reason to worry about my watches.

I liked the way the OR looked and the info that I deciphered from all of the reviews/blurbs/comments on the forums so I bought one and have enjoyed it ever since and even bought a second one.

If it fails then I will have it repaired but until then I've got way too many more important things to concern myself with.

Enjoy your OR's guys!


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## mrpete (Dec 13, 2006)

Dec1968 said:


> There's 'not disclosing' and there is 'intentional lack of transparency' when asked. They've been asked about a great many things and refuse to disclose some concerns we as buyers have.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why barter posting in this thread?
If you don't like the watch move on. I am tired of this kind of reply. It has been repeated over and over. I have a OR since it was first released and it is a great watch for the price. 
I ware it at least 4 to 5 times a month and it has not disappointed. And speaking of Rolex, I know from an insider that a 116610 cost about $500.00 to manufacture and package. So who is zooming who?
BTW I have a 11610N as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrpete said:


> Why barter posting in this thread?
> If you don't like the watch move on. I am tired of this kind of reply. It has been repeated over and over. I have a OR since it was first released and it is a great watch for the price.
> I ware it at least 4 to 5 times a month and it has not disappointed. And speaking of Rolex, I know from an insider that a 116610 cost about $500.00 to manufacture and package. So who is zooming who?
> BTW I have a 11610N as well.
> ...


I've owned two. Is it a problem for me to have an opinion that differs from yours? I didn't realize I needed your permission to post. People like you bug me. Sorry, but that crap rubs me the wrong way. We are all free to share our opinions and feelings on these watches. Mine counts equally as yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thank you John! Beautifully said.

I hope one day to come to Toronto and have you make a bespoke suit for me.

Welcome to the forum!

Best wishes
Avo

https://dolcemag.com/general-intere...of-talored-perfection-john-de-laurentiis/3789


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

The debate about Ginault movement seems to be a neverending story 

I'm still wondering, just so I can know if something happens in the future. If I buy THIS ETA Top Grade and THIS H4 cannon pinion set from eBay and if I give it to my watchmaker (he's a good one), will it work? And is this ETA from eBay really the genuine ETA Top Grade? So it can be bought for about 250 USD + shipping from Switzerland?

I just need to know, I probably won't do it (definitely not now if the watch is new), but the other voice in my head needs to know 

Thank you


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## kentjb (Dec 26, 2017)

I'd definitely buy a Ginault if they made a 60-minute bezel. Has anyone tried modding one?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm sure you can install a 3rd party 60 minutes bezel, there are plenty on eBay. Just get one compatible with a milsub.


kentjb said:


> I'd definitely buy a Ginault if they made a 60-minute bezel. Has anyone tried modding one?


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Mr. Igelit said:


> The debate about Ginault movement seems to be a neverending story
> 
> I'm still wondering, just so I can know if something happens in the future. If I buy THIS ETA Top Grade and THIS H4 cannon pinion set from eBay and if I give it to my watchmaker (he's a good one), will it work? And is this ETA from eBay really the genuine ETA Top Grade? So it can be bought for about 250 USD + shipping from Switzerland?
> 
> ...


Ginault was quite transparent in their statement that their movement was a 1:1 copy of the ETA 2824-2 with the H-4 pinion. Everything I've seen from on-line photographs makes it appear to be a 1:1 replication of the ETA 2824-2 (which is perfectly legal by the way as the patents on the 2824-2 are long expired. Numerous companies make 2824-2 copies today, not just Ginault).

I see no reason why your watch maker could not swap the new ETA 2824-2 into the old Ginault movement holder and drop it into the Ginault case. He could probably swap in the stock Ginault crown and step assembly so he would not have to mess with cutting the new stem.

I agree with the earlier poster who stated this seems like a lot of effort and expense for very little gain, but it is your money.

Personally, I would just run the stock movement until it died, but that's just me.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Remember that the datewheel will also need to be swapped. Again, shouldn't be a problem for any experienced watchsmith.

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Nothing wrong with the Ginault movement. Mine has been rock solid for 18 months. Far better accuracy than any of my other watches costing 10x more. And its the beater of the collection.


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

I know, I know, again - it's just "what if". Well, my new Ginault didn't even arrive yet 

It's mostly based on my experience with previous Ginault, since I'm pretty much a one watch guy, I like the watch to be accurate (let's say sat least below +-10 secs a day). And the last one did about +30 for the first few months (it wasn't magnetized), so I sent it to the EU service center for adjustment, then it did like -20 (again not magnetized). Then about a month ago I took it to my watchmaker, so he adjusted it in several positions to about 0 on the vibrograph (so it should be around 2-3 secs on the actual wrist), it did like -10... I guess I was just a little bit unlucky or perhaps the movement was maybe hit somewhere on the road (since I'm in the heart of Europe)..

I was just wondering if something like this happens again, I won't regret paying 300 USD more for a genuine Top Grade ETA 2824 to have "the perfect watch" for me. Because I realized this is the only watch I want to wear...


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## blackcoffee (Oct 5, 2018)

Well... I just got mine a few days ago, a 181070LSILN. On the wrist, it makes about +1.0 seconds a day, and crown up it's about -1.0 seconds a day. I guess I was lucky. Or at least, I'm lucky the first week. The proof is in the pudding the next few years. Other positions seems a bit more off, but on the other hand, they have not gotten too much time yet, and this is measured using a phone app, not a time grapher. 

My recent Seiko with a 6R15 makes -5 on the wrist an +5 crown up.


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## carrsville (Oct 6, 2018)

I’m torn between going with a Ginault or a Seiko SBDC061. I can’t make up my mind. Looking for a diver that can be worn casually all the way to suit and tie.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

For me, the Ginault ticked all the boxes. 

Good luck with your decision!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

That's a tough one as both watches are a great choice. 

The Seiko is cheaper but I'm not sure that the Seiko crystal is as scratch resistant as the Ginault Saphire so that may be a consideration.

I haven't had the Seiko on the wrist but I suspect that it may wear a touch bigger given the case and lug shape but that may be a good thing if you like bigger watches.

I also suspect that the Ginault will have a better re-sale than the Seiko if you decide that it's not for you.

For me it would have to be both but if only one was possible it would still be the Ginault for me.

Good luck with your decision.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

They are completely different breeds. The Seiko is 44mm and 51mm lug to lug while the Subm... ehm, Ginault is 40mm. Like comparing a Porsche 911 with a Mercedes G-Class.

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

mrmorfo said:


> They are completely different breeds. The Seiko is 44mm and 51mm lug to lug while the Subm... ehm, Ginault is 40mm. Like comparing a Porsche 911 with a Mercedes G-Class.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


Good analogy. Except perhaps neither rise to the heights of a Porche or Mercedes... Perhaps more like a Chevrolet Malibu and a Toyota Avalon.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> Good analogy. Except perhaps neither rise to the heights of a Porche or Mercedes... Perhaps more like a Chevrolet Malibu and a Toyota Avalon.


With respect to timekeeping my Ginault runs like a Mercedes F1 race car leaving all others in the collection in the dust.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> With respect to timekeeping my Ginault runs like a Mercedes F1 race car leaving all others in the collection in the dust.


LOL!

With respect to daughter's roommates cars, a Prius, Ford Focus, and a Toyota Corolla, her 2016 AWD Equinox performed in last Thursday night's snow storm like a GLS 450 4MATIC.

On one hand, the analogy can kind of make sense. On the other hand, that old Sesame Street song comes to mind: "one of these things is not like the other...".

Not knocking your Ginault. Arguably perhaps one of the best Rolex sub knock off's on the market. They seem to put together a nice product, and have developed a loyal and possibly growing following. They have to be doing more than a few things right to do that.

But it is what it is, and that's about on par with any number of the entry level offerings of many of the good micro watch makers. Maybe not cost-wise, as Ginault costs more, and for less there are quite a few options with genuine 2824's or other comparable branded movements.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I have a whole bunch of micros (see my sig), and the fit and finish of the Ginault is on a higher level than any of them. IMO it's commensurate with the MSRP.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Mr. Igelit said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I finally ordered my new Ginault OR with date and cyclops after I sold my domed nodate one. I also sold all of my other watches (kept only the cheapest Casio), because I realized Ginault probably made me one watch guy.
> 
> ...


I've had 2 ORs and both ran better than my ETA 2824 watches.

BTW, I'm likely going to sell my no-date and get the date version....I'm on the fence. I'll probably sell my other watches too as I only wear the OR now


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

As I've said before..I'm not big on bracelets...not into nato strap either, but thought I'd pop this on and see how I liked it...looks awesome...I don't like so much how it make the watch sit higher on wrist...but looks A+...hard to put a strap on the OR and have it look anything but awesome  I think it gives it the real Military vibe....


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Avo said:


> I have a whole bunch of micros (see my sig), and the fit and finish of the Ginault is on a higher level than any of them. IMO it's commensurate with the MSRP.


I haven't owned any of the watches on your list, including Ginault. I have some experience with others however, listed below. More I'm sure; these immediately come to mind.

One thing that's always stuck me about these watches, and watches in general, is this: on the exterior, if you can get past the hype, and try to be purely objective, there's often not a lot of obvious differences. There are subjective things like style, "bling", etc. Some are more polished, others heavier.

But as far as "fit and finish", what has been most surprising to me is how that doesn't jump out as much as you might expect. My Seiko Sumo, or SARB's, look and feel as just about as well made as lower level Rolex and Omega divers. My Doxa's are as nicely put together as a Squale 1521. or Seiko Shogun. Of course there are other factors. In-house parts, movements, materials, craftsmanship.

And of course there are some watch brands that are cheap and not so well made. Let's rule those out. None of those below would fall into that classification. Can't say for most of those on your list.

Of those below, how would someone who knew nothing about these watch brands perceive all of these if all were lined up on a table? Then add the price tags, and see how perception changes.

Here's my point. I'm sure, from all the comments on Ginault, they are well made with a nice fit and finish. Objectively, how would that compare a $400 Seiko Sumo? Or a $600 Seiko SBDC051? Or a $500 Squale 1545? Is the fit and finish in a Ginault worth 2 or 3 x?

Then factor in what's inside. An unbranded movement vs a branded? I have owned several dozen watches with 2824's inside. My Doxa Shark runs at +2; my Damsako 47 is +3. Both are regulated by the mfg. Unregulated ones have been as much as +20 or -10. Most seem to be +10 or under. They can all be regulated very inexpensively. And you have to consider regulation does not always equate to how a movement performs "on the hand" in real life. Over time, all mechanical watches will drift and need servicing.

Again, no knock on Ginault. Just that given what's inside, thinking purely objectively, are they worth as much, on fit and finish alone, as you say, as a Damasko DA47? Or $500 more than a Squale 1521 or a Seiko Shogun? Subjectively of course what something is worth is in the eye of the beholder.

Diver I own or have owned:

Doxa 1200 Professional
Doxa 1200 Shark
Damasko DA46 on Damasko ice hardened bracelet 
Damasko DA46 on leather
Damasko DA47 - 2 copies
Sinn 856
Precista PRS82
Precista PRS18
CWC Royal Navy Diver
Squale 1521 - 3 copies
Squale 1545
Squale GMT - 2 copies
Marathon GSAR - 3 copies
Marathon TSAR
Citizens Promaster Skyhawk
Swiss Amy diver
Seiko:
MM300
Shogun
Sumo
BFK
Gray Ghost
SARB059
SARB021
SARB017 - 3 copies
Monster - 3 copies, 3 models
SKX017 - at least 8 copies, 5 variants 
SNN239 - 2 variants 
Dagaz Aurora
Dagaz Typhoon II - 2 copies

Divers I have have been able to handle and examine over long periods of time (i.i owned by friends and co-workers):

Orient
Tudor
Rolex
Panerai
Cartier
Ball
Sinn diver
Omega
TAG Heuer
Breitling
Oris
Patek Philippe 
Baume & Mercier
Longines 
Citizens
Shinola
Casio
Aquadive
Boschett
Steinhart


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

You can only judge the f&f after seeing one in person. To be honest from my perspective, it lives up to the hype. Solid, reliable, accurate and stands up to scrutiny under a loupe.

And I don't know anyone who paid full retail so MSRP is bit a mute issue. Most buyers bought for 20-50% off retail.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

nepatriot said:


> I haven't owned any of the watches on your list, including Ginault.


Then your opinion of the Ginault doesn't mean much, does it?



nepatriot said:


> Again, no knock on Ginault. Just that given what's inside, thinking purely objectively, are they worth as much, on fit and finish alone, as you say, as a Damasko DA47?


Absolutely. Before I bought the Ginault, I briefly owned a DA47. I bought it brand new from a US AD at full MSRP. When I opened the box, the first thing I noticed was that the bezel was quite obviously misaligned. I turned it a few times, but it did not get better. The AD told me that was the best alignment that he had in his stock on hand. It was completely unacceptable to me at that price, and I returned the watch.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

A bit of help please... where on the EU would one buy a flat AR crystal and a silver seconds hand that could pair well with this watch? 

Or if not possible to answer, what should one look for to find said pieces ?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

sweeperdk01 said:


> A bit of help please... where on the EU would one buy a flat AR crystal and a silver seconds hand that could pair well with this watch?
> 
> Or if not possible to answer, what should one look for to find said pieces ?


G4_chrono has changed the crystal with an AR coated flat crystal. He was very keen in providing me with the contact details of the seller. Since I don't know if I am allowed to post this info here, I would suggest you to contact him.

I also asked Ginault about the possibility of buying a flat crystal from them. After having sent several e-mails, I am still waiting for an answer.

Regarding the silver second hand, I am also interested in finding about a possible supplier, although I am not fully convinced about changing it, simce the red hand gives the watch a very nice sporty touch, IMO.


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## sweeperdk01 (May 20, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> G4_chrono has changed the crystal with an AR coated flat crystal. He was very keen in providing me with the contact details of the seller. Since I don't know if I am allowed to post this info here, I would suggest you to contact him.
> 
> I also asked Ginault about the possibility of buying a flat crystal from them. After having sent several e-mails, I am still waiting for an answer.
> 
> Regarding the silver second hand, I am also interested in finding about a possible supplier, although I am not fully convinced about changing it, simce the red hand gives the watch a very nice sporty touch, IMO.


About the hands... I'm considering these. I just don't know if they'll fit nicely. It'll only be the seconds hand most likely, but still.

https://www.helenarou.com/5517-milsub-super-lume-watch-hands-correct-sec-tip-for-e551728242836.html


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I like the red hand at least on the LS1N version. Gives the dial a more unique appearance and further diversion from the Rolex equivalent. If I had custard lume and blue bezel I would likely change as I think the red clashes a bit visually.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

sweeperdk01 said:


> About the hands... I'm considering these. I just don't know if they'll fit nicely. It'll only be the seconds hand most likely, but still.
> 
> https://www.helenarou.com/5517-milsub-super-lume-watch-hands-correct-sec-tip-for-e551728242836.html


Thanks for the link. Those have Super Lume C1. Would not match the 181070LSILN with the BGW9 lume.


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## gward10 (Sep 30, 2013)

good post


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

This hand set would be nice alternative, although I like the sword hands. BGW9 lume too
https://luciusatelier.com/products/bgw9-polished-silver-mercedes-hands


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Those are for Seiko movements, they won't fit a 2824 clone.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Good point. These might work
https://www.helenarou.com/new-blue-superlume-silver-watch-hands-for-eta-28282428342836.html


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Avo said:


> Then your opinion of the Ginault doesn't mean much, does it?


Did I give an opinion on that watch? I don't think so....



Avo said:


> Absolutely. Before I bought the Ginault, I briefly owned a DA47. I bought it brand new from a US AD at full MSRP. When I opened the box, the first thing I noticed was that the bezel was quite obviously misaligned. I turned it a few times, but it did not get better. The AD told me that was the best alignment that he had in his stock on hand. It was completely unacceptable to me at that price, and I returned the watch.


I've owned 3 Damasko's. All were flawless, but any watch can have QC issues. Even Rolex.

There are occasional reports of QC issues with Damasko's. But all of Greg's stock at Watchmann has misaligned bezels? And Greg would sell them like that? Shame on Greg!

Who knew that Damasko's failure rate on bezel alignment is near 100% ... eclipsing even Seiko!

I would imagine there would be many reports of this on these forums, if it were that so prevalent. A quick internet search reveals one report of a misaligned bezel. Hmmm... Of course turning it a few times would make no difference... ceramic ball bearings have zero play. Damasko bezel inserts screw in, like the case back.

Anyway, it sounds like Ginault must be perhaps one of the most amazing watch ever made, with a fit and finish alone that justifies it's $1,500 cost.

I mean, I really like my Doxa's, but to be perfectly objective, and I hate to say this, the fit and finish of the Sumo and several SARB's I had were pretty darn close. And I hate the Sumo - arguably the fugliest Seiko diver ever! The Doxa cost almost 4x! Of course there are other reasons why anyone would pay that much for a Doxa... most subjective.

I truly hope to run into a Ginault someday, just so I can behold this for myself.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

nepatriot said:


> Did I give an opinion on that watch? I don't think so....


Actually, you did:



nepatriot said:


> But it is what it is, and that's about on par with any number of the entry level offerings of many of the good micro watch makers.


As for Damasko, I can only report my personal experience.


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## thrills (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm quite tempted by the model with date but no cyclops.... soooo tempted.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

nepatriot said:


> Anyway, it sounds like Ginault must be perhaps one of the most amazing watch ever made, with a fit and finish alone that justifies it's $1,500 cost.


Not the most amazing watch but probably the best Rolex Homage currently available. Cost is around $1K with 20% discount not $1500.


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Not the most amazing watch but probably the best Rolex Homage currently available. Cost is around $1K with 20% discount not $1500.


And easily found used in excellent condition in the $700-800 range.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

sweeperdk01 said:


> A bit of help please... where on the EU would one buy a flat AR crystal and a silver seconds hand that could pair well with this watch?
> 
> Or if not possible to answer, what should one look for to find said pieces ?


maybe try those: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Seadweller...h=item25d38ce033:g:4YsAAOSwBahU9dfR:rk:1:pf:0

otherwise you can check out cousins UK or clarks watch parts - ETA mercedes hands should be easily available.

For the crystal: Google for "sonil" or "prof" double AR crystal  I don't think they really do have a website but with some minutes on google you should be able to find it.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Great info on the hands! Thank all of you.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Avo said:


> Actually, you did:


You're right, in the way, because we form some sort of opinions about things as we filter what may or may not interest us. You had to have formed some opinion of Ginualt before deciding to order one. There are facts that can be known about things without seeing one, like specs. Opinions on subjective things, like fit and finish, can be based on the opinions of others, or one's one personal experience.

I've been very clear that I have no personal experience with Ginault. And fair: on subjective fit and finish, I have stipulating I'll accept the opinions of others, that the Ginault is a well put together watch.

On specifications, Ginault is on par with many micro's, including boutique brands and replicators, using generic or unbranded movements, sapphire, ceramic, applied markets, solid end links, etc. The next step up are homages, like Davosa, Steinhart, and Squale's 1545, that use well known branded movements.

On fit and finish, from what I have read, most people seem to put the Ginault on par with the better ones, like Davosa, Steinhart and the 1545. Having briefly had a 1545, and having owned several 1521's, my opinion is the 1545 is more or less on par, fit and finish, with the 1521. By that logic alone, I can accept the Ginault most likely is, fit and finish, a well made piece.

Davosa, Steinhart and the 1545 sell for between $600 and $800 these days. The 1521 about $900. There is nothing mysterious about these watches: they are Swiss made, and use genuine ETA 2824 movements. Can't say that on Ginault: unbranded movement, secrecy on the factory, etc.

I've already said, tying to be objective, the fit and finish of my 1521 is more or less on par with the MM300, and Doxa's. Trying to be objective, those watches are are not all that different, IMHO, fit and finish wise, then some more expensive brands I have handled.

Reality is, INHO, that as watches go up in price, the differences become more about what's inside, materials, how made, how much is in-house, marketing and reputation\prestige.

So I'll admit I'm a little skeptical when a few people propose that their Ginault is, on fit and finish, a noticeable cut above these other watches.



Avo said:


> As for Damasko, I can only report my personal experience.


Yes, and equally as amazing as your personal experience regarding fit and finish of your Ginault vs. the other watches you own.


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## dan_bsht (Jan 16, 2014)

I don't want to start an argument here, but I've owned a Ginault for about a year and I still have a Steinhart. The Ginault is definitely one or two step ahead in regards of quality, fit and finish, better crystal and amazing dial. If you compare both in hand you will definitely feel that Ginault is of better quality. Aside from the movement which is a different story.
I ended up trading my Ginault for a grail watch I was hunting for sometime.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

the_watchier said:


> I don't want to start an argument here, but I've owned a Ginault for about a year and I still have a Steinhart. The Ginault is definitely one or two step ahead in regards of quality, fit and finish, better crystal and amazing dial. If you compare both in hand you will definitely feel that Ginault is of better quality. Aside from the movement which is a different story.
> I ended up trading my Ginault for a grail watch I was hunting for sometime.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


+1. I also owned both and side by side the Ginault is noticeably higher quality than the Steinhart.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

There are a multitude of YT reviews by respected commentators who have compared Ginault directly with Rolex and homages from other brands. You might want to check those out to help form your opinion. Better still buy one and return it if it doesn't meet your expectations or standards.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

nepatriot said:


> Ginault is on par with many micro's ... using generic or unbranded movements ... The next step up are homages, like Davosa, Steinhart, and Squale's 1545, that use well known branded movements.


Wut? The vast majority of micros use branded movements from Miyota, Seiko, ETA, Sellita, STP, etc.; the latter three are the exact same movements that are in Davosa, Steinhart, Squale, Oris, Glycine, Tissot, Hamilton, and many other Swiss brands. Ginault makes their own 2824 clone. I've seen few reported problems with it. Mine runs at +5s/d with little positional variation. On the other hand, my first ETA 2824, in a Christopher Ward, had endless problems and ultimately was replaced under warranty.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Thoughts?

https://instagram.com/silverwatchcompany?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1lqogboahn8x7

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

There's no possible comparison between Squale/Steinhart and Ginault, they are in a completely different league, for many reasons but mainly:

1. Ginault uses machined steel in all components of the case, bezel assembly, crown, etc. The other two use metal injection molding which is cheaper and the finishing is way worse (Rolex uses machined steel too, btw).

2. The bracelet. For god's sake, the bracelet. I had 2 Steinhart and while I can't say anything negative about them (except for the straight lugs which were the reason I sold them), the bracelets are subpar. Especially the clasp. Ginault's clasp might be a ripoff of Rolex's glidelock but, hey, that's the beauty of it. Because at the end of the day, guess what: it's a glidelock for 25% of the price! Can't compare with Squale/Steinhart's clasp and bracelet (which comes from the same factory, which I presume it's based closer to Guangzhou than Geneva).

3. The solid end links. On the Ginault they are exactly like a Submariner. Slightly recessed, sitting slightly low with the lugs, etc. And of course all of it is machined steel. On the other two, fitting is flush with the lugs and again we talk about injection instead of machining.

See? And I still haven't talked about the movement. There is way more on the Ginault than meets the eye.

On the movement discussion, there seems to be a discussion between original ETA Vs "in-house ETA" (use whichever name you want). But people often seem to forget that Tag, Montblanc, or Longines use modified ETAs with new names and no one cares. Ginault is exactly the same.

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Edit: double post - sorry


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> https://instagram.com/silverwatchcompany?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1lqogboahn8x7
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good idea but I do not like the crown guards and I have some questions regarding the case profile (thickness, lug to lug etc.) Furthermore the dial seems to be too big (29mm vs 26mm on the 4 digit rolex)


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> https://instagram.com/silverwatchcompany?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1lqogboahn8x7
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What no discussion of movement and provenance. How dare they?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

nepatriot said:


> You're right, in the way, because we form some sort of opinions about things as we filter what may or may not interest us. You had to have formed some opinion of Ginualt before deciding to order one. There are facts that can be known about things without seeing one, like specs. Opinions on subjective things, like fit and finish, can be based on the opinions of others, or one's one personal experience.
> 
> I've been very clear that I have no personal experience with Ginault. And fair: on subjective fit and finish, I have stipulating I'll accept the opinions of others, that the Ginault is a well put together watch.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to get involved in an internet argument about Ginault, but I'll unequivocally state my MM300 is above my Ginault OR. The reason is the MM300 case is a much more complex design with significantly more detail machining required. The Ginault is replicating the 5 digit Sub case which is a much more basic overall design.

That said, Ginault nails this replication perfectly while Squale, Steinhart (which I own several of) and the other host of Sub homages all fail (intentionally or not) to do well.

Personally, I think the high water mark of the Rolex Sub case design was the 5 digit model with the aluminum bezel insert. The modern broad shouldered lug design with the ceramic insert is technically superior, but the older 5 digit reference just visually is perfection.

Moving aside from case finish, the Ginault bezel action is actually one of the best I've experienced, period. Yes, I prefer the dampened clicks as found on Seiko divers, but the Ginault is leaps and bounds ahead of Steinhart and Helson (I own a Sharkmaster 300 / Omega Seamaster homage) and I would even place it above my Jean Richard AquaScope, and my OWC. It feels exactly like all the 5 digit Rolex Subs I've handled in the past, so if Ginault was setting that as their target, kudos to them for achieving it.

The dial and handset on the Ginault are well done. The lume is very evenly applied on mine and the dial is a deep gloss black. All the applied indices are well done with their polished surrounds. I have not seen this similar detail level on even my "premium" Steinhart.

Ultimately, the way I look at it is the worst case scenario on the Ginault is the movement dies and I would have to replace it on my own. I can buy an ETA 2824-2 and have my watch guy swap out the pinion to the Ginault H-4, reset the dial and hands, and I'm back for less than $300. That said, my Ginault is going on 2 years old and still working as designed.

There is little to nothing a Steinhart or Squale owner can do to make their case, dial, handset, and bracelet the equivalent of the Ginault.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> What no discussion of movement and provenance. How dare they?


https://www.silverwatchco.com/about.html

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

kovy71 said:


> Good idea but I do not like the crown guards and I have some questions regarding the case profile (thickness, lug to lug etc.) Furthermore the dial seems to be too big (29mm vs 26mm on the 4 digit rolex)


All answered on their IG page.

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Not currently in the market for a Sub homage, but

1) Snowflake! Blue Snowflake!

2) They tried to mimic how the original superdomes had distortion at the edge of the crystal. That's a good thing.

3) Miyota 9039 strikes again. A true no-date movement seemingly available to any and all micro brands. No more date mechanism chugging away behind a no-date dial!

4) My thought cloud: could I actually buy a Sub homage? hmmm.....



Dec1968 said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> https://instagram.com/silverwatchcompany?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1lqogboahn8x7
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> All answered on their IG page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool,thank you for the info. What do you think of the watch so far?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

kovy71 said:


> Cool,thank you for the info. What do you think of the watch so far?


It seems like a very faithful take on the revered 5517. I may get one to have - I'm moving away from homage watches, but this one is really speaking to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

What's the price?


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

My thoughts exactly. Only issue is when trying to recreate the unique distortion at the outer edge of the crystal, they reversed the sharp and soft edge. The divergence of the inner and outer crystal angle at the edges is what gave the original Sub Superdomes their unique look.

Raven got it right with their Vintage 42, see below:









Compare to the Silver. I'm afraid this might look wonky:











Dec1968 said:


> It seems like a very faithful take on the revered 5517. I may get one to have - I'm moving away from homage watches, but this one is really speaking to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

pinkybrain said:


> Not currently in the market for a Sub homage, but
> 
> 1) Snowflake! Blue Snowflake!
> 
> ...


No fixed bars? No deal! Jk, but the idea of a bracelet on a milsub makes me a little sad. Time Factors was probably the last company that made an homage w/fixed bars (http://timefactors.com/smithsprs29.htm ) & I don't believe that version was the biggest seller.

If they stay w/their < $400 pricing, I'm sure they'll do well.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

It would be nice to bring back the slot bars of the vintage Submariners. They're a little like the fat Seiko bars but the tips are even thicker, if you can believe it.



stolen-gmt-master said:


> No fixed bars? No deal! Jk, but the idea of a bracelet on a milsub makes me a little sad. Time Factors was probably the last company that made an homage w/fixed bars (Smiths PRS-29 Timefactors ) & I don't believe that version was the biggest seller.
> 
> If they stay w/their < $400 pricing, I'm sure they'll do well.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Why is the Silver being discussed on the Ginault thread? It should have its own thread, or be part of the sub-homage thread.

Personally, I have no interest. My milsub itch has been thoroughly scratched by the Ocean Rover. Before the OR, I had (and still have) a Kadloo Scubamarine, a low-cost milsub homage with a 2824 that looks very similar to the Silver (no bracelet though). These days I wear it to mow the lawn, and not much else.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> These days I wear it to mow the lawn


Does it mulch:-d


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Sadly no!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I never wear a watch when mowing the lawn, I like to savour the experience without having time restraints


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

pinkybrain said:


> My thoughts exactly. Only issue is when trying to recreate the unique distortion at the outer edge of the crystal, they reversed the sharp and soft edge. The divergence of the inner and outer crystal angle at the edges is what gave the original Sub Superdomes their unique look.
> 
> Raven got it right with their Vintage 42, see below:
> 
> ...


Makes me wonder if acrylic and sapphire means using a different approach to achieve the desired end result.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Makes me wonder if acrylic and sapphire means using a different approach to achieve the desired end result.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, an acrylic crystal & fixed bars might push me over the purchasing line.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Yes, an acrylic crystal & fixed bars might push me over the purchasing line.


You can always fix a bar and then swap for acrylic..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> You can always fix a bar and then swap for acrylic..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mounting acrylic vs sapphire is different. At least thats the case for the Speedmaster Professional. I doubt they're interchangeable


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

A little Bulang&Sons love.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Well well, look what was on the post yesterday!

I confirm every single positive comment here. An absolute hell of a watch indeed.









Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Well well, look what was on the post yesterday!
> 
> I confirm every single positive comment here. An absolute hell of a watch indeed.
> 
> ...


Excellent choice.
Question, is the crystal flat or domed on that model?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

double post


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Thanks buddy! It's flat, no ar coating (except for the cyclops, I think)

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> There's no possible comparison between Squale/Steinhart and Ginault, they are in a completely different league, for many reasons but mainly:
> 
> 1. Ginault uses machined steel in all components of the case, bezel assembly, crown, etc. The other two use metal injection molding which is cheaper and the finishing is way worse (Rolex uses machined steel too, btw).
> 
> ...


Well being vacuum formed copied from the originals that's why it's close to a 1:1


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Avo said:


> Why is the Silver being discussed on the Ginault thread? It should have its own thread, or be part of the sub-homage thread.
> 
> Personally, I have no interest. My milsub itch has been thoroughly scratched by the Ocean Rover. Before the OR, I had (and still have) a Kadloo Scubamarine, a low-cost milsub homage with a 2824 that looks very similar to the Silver (no bracelet though). These days I wear it to mow the lawn, and not much else.


Well the ginault pod ppl seem to post in any thread remotely sub related seems fair


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

The Silver Co folks are claiming that the Ginault is not a faithful copy of the Rolex because its lugs aren't turned down enough; they say that it suffers from "straight lug syndrome":


__
http://instagr.am/p/BosQ-k2nEqx/

*sigh* This poor little pod person can't keep all these claims straight ...


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

What a joke


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Well being vacuum formed copied from the originals that's why it's close to a 1:1


I've never heard of vacuum forming of Stainless Steel.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Avo said:


> The Silver Co folks are claiming that the Ginault is not a faithful copy of the Rolex because its lugs aren't turned down enough; they say that it suffers from "straight lug syndrome":
> 
> 
> __
> ...


The reality of the flat lugs on the Ginault is accurate - if it were a six digit case with the thicket lugs then the flatness of the Ginault would be accurate. Instead, the thinner lugs should curve more subtly. I put one against a Submariner as a test.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

59er said:


> I've never heard of vacuum forming of Stainless Steel.


It meant 'no original thought can occur in a vacuum' I bet.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I tell you.....the Ginault Boys don't seem to like the Silver Boys - I sense a rumble. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

.


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## SimpleWatchMan (Apr 25, 2014)

Hmm ... why?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> I tell you.....the Ginault Boys don't seem to like the Silver Boys - I sense a rumble.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean because of the off topic?


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> The reality of the flat lugs on the Ginault is accurate - if it were a six digit case with the thicket lugs then the flatness of the Ginault would be accurate. Instead, the thinner lugs should curve more subtly. I put one against a Submariner as a test.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Brother, please please please please I beg you to learn and know your Rolex and really become an expert BEFORE you offer errorous information. PLEASE I BEG YOU. You should school yourself or if you'd like I can school you.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Thoughts?
> 
> https://instagram.com/silverwatchcompany?utm_source=ig_profile_share&igshid=1lqogboahn8x7
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Admin, can we please remove this posting from the Ginault thread? It's not even remotely related to any topic we are discussing here. It was just a random insert of another brand.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

MarkGT900 said:


> Admin, can we please remove this posting from the Ginault thread? It's not even remotely related to any topic we are discussing here. It was just a random insert of another brand.


Why? We discuss Steinhart, Tisell, and many other brands in comparison. Are you threatened by the discussion in this thread as a comparison? Omg...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

With respect to the curvature of the lugs, the Ginault pretty much nails the 16610 it was modeled on. There might be the slightest of differences in the curvature of the top of the lugs, but it's very minor. Here's a side by side that was once posted on these forums comparing them:


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thank you for clarifying this.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

acg2010 said:


> With respect to the curvature of the lugs, the Ginault pretty much nails the 16610 it was modeled on. There might be the slightest of differences in the curvature of the top of the lugs, but it's very minor. Here's a side by side that was once posted on these forums comparing them:


Thank you. Finally some clarity. If you're looking for straight cases look no further than Steinhart. Ginault is in a different league altogether no matter what the naysayers bleat.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Very interested in buying one of these. Is the Ginault movement generally considered pretty robust for wearing while exploring/adventuring?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

As robust as any ETA 2824, yep.


3005 said:


> Very interested in buying one of these. Is the Ginault movement generally considered pretty robust for wearing while exploring/adventuring?


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

3005 said:


> Very interested in buying one of these. Is the Ginault movement generally considered pretty robust for wearing while exploring/adventuring?


The Ginault movement is a copy of an ETA 2824-2 with all the same strengths / weaknesses of that design.

I've worn mine while surfing numerous times with no ill effects and I think it would make a solid "hard use" alternative in situations where you might not want to wear your BB58 (a watch on my radar as well!)

That said, I also own / wear my SKX007 quite a bit for "hard use" situations, so you seem to have that base fairly well covered with the Seiko.

Personally, I think the Ginault (speaking specifically to the original sand lume / gloss dial / applied indices model I own) dresses up better than the Seiko, so if "beach / field to boardroom" is your desire, then the Ginault is probably a good fit.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

All modern mechanical movements are "robust" in the sense that they are not affected by anything other than a "short sharp shock", like dropping the watch from a height of several feet onto a hard floor. Anything you do with the watch on wrist that does not injure your wrist is not going to harm the watch.

Caveat: when I say "not affected by anything", I am excluding long-term things like extensive hand-winding over years; this is known to wear down a gear in the 2824 (and presumably clones).


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

3005 said:


> Very interested in buying one of these. Is the Ginault movement generally considered pretty robust for wearing while exploring/adventuring?


I've had mine for about 18 months. It's been my most accurate timekeeper, within +1/day. It's actually been more accurate than my Explorer II or any of my other sub homages. So, if your concern is about timekeeping (not just durability), I'd say its spot on there too. Ginault puts out a good product overall in my experience.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Thanks all, I appreciate the responses. Unless otherwise noted, does Ginault generally ship relatively soon after order? Or are the watches made to order? 

I emailed Ginault but they haven't yet responded.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Same here, got mine last Thursday, set the time in the afternoon and now it's just +6s since then. So there you go, somewhere around +1s/day.

The watch has been bought second hand, it's from 2017, so I can say that after a year it seems to still perform remarkably well, one would say superlatively well (see what I've done there, huh?)



acg2010 said:


> I've had mine for about 18 months. It's been my most accurate timekeeper, within +1/day. It's actually been more accurate than my Explorer II or any of my other sub homages. So, if your concern is about timekeeping (not just durability), I'd say its spot on there too. Ginault puts out a good product overall in my experience.


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Recent side-by-side posts remind me of this marketing campaign from many years ago...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Wow. You could buy a new 450SLC for $24K in 1975 … wish I'd done it!


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

Avo said:


> Wow. You could buy a new 450SLC for $24K in 1975 &#8230; wish I'd done it!


$24K in '74 is worth $128K in todays money. 2019 SL450 Roadsters start at $89K so you better off getting one today. If you don't go crazy with options you may have some change left for a stainless Sub or Daytona!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

If you like old advertising documents and dollars adjusted pricing, this one posted on Hodinkee is pretty interesting:








The $240 you would've spent in 1959 (the date of this announcement) would the equivalent of $2,256 today.

I find myself ping-ponging back and forth mentally between "I wish I had one of those original 605 imported 6542 GMTs" to "How in the heck did the marketing geniuses at Rolex turn a $2,256 watch (today's equivalent dollars) into a $12K watch?"


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

What's even more astounding is that the 2256 dollar (equivalent) investment, would now sell for up to potentially 30k+.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

12k for a bakelite GMT? More like twice that amount, if you are really lucky!


Ryeguy said:


> If you like old advertising documents and dollars adjusted pricing, this one posted on Hodinkee is pretty interesting:
> View attachment 13677715
> 
> 
> ...


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Well, I just ordered the 180165C1LN. Looking forward to it for a GADA daily wearer.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


> 12k for a bakelite GMT? More like twice that amount, if you are really lucky!
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


Sorry - I should have been more clear. I meant a modern GMT Master being $12K versus the $2,256 in adjusted dollars it arguably could / should be. It is more a perspective on how the Rolex pricing model has been modified over the years from "good quality time piece" to "luxury statement timepiece".

A 1959 Bakelite GMT is pretty much beyond the reach of almost any collector.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> If you like old advertising documents and dollars adjusted pricing, this one posted on Hodinkee is pretty interesting:
> View attachment 13677715
> 
> 
> ...


I recall reading that even in the 70's and early 80's Rolex was not so high on the luxury watch rank as it is today, and they had more competition. That changed later on, when so many mechanical watch makers closed due to the quartz wave, and Rolex was able to remain. Also that in the 70's and 80's the military grade divers from premium companies were more utilitarian and less bling than the rest of their lines. And so their cost, while premium, the factor was not as many X's as today.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> "How in the heck did the marketing geniuses at Rolex turn a $2,256 watch (today's equivalent dollars) into a $12K watch?"


It's even more impressive when you consider that this watch really was among the "world's finest wrist chronometers" in 1959, whereas today any mechanical Rolex is outperformed (in terms of accuracy as a chronometer, or literally "time meter") by any $20 quartz from the drugstore.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

nepatriot said:


> I recall reading that even in the 70's and early 80's Rolex was not so high on the luxury watch rank as it is today, and they had more competition. That changed later on, when so many mechanical watch makers closed due to the quartz wave, and Rolex was able to remain. Also that in the 70's and 80's the military grade divers from premium companies were more utilitarian and less bling than the rest of their lines. And so their cost, while premium, the factor was not as many X's as today.


I've read the same. I also do a fair amount of work in Houston and the guys there call Rolex watches "Texas Timex" due to their being the default watch of the '80's oil guys.

I think Rolex navigated the quartz crisis extremely well and was able to rebrand itself very effectively. They really had to because even a chronometer grade movement at $XXX falls short accuracy-wise to even a low cost quartz movement. Highly accurate watches became extremely accessible to the general public.

This takes nothing away from my appreciation for the Rolex company. It is really an almost inspiring business case study on how to move from a "quality commodity" item to a "premium luxury" item all without making any dramatic changes to the item itself (i.e. a stainless steel Sub hasn't really physically changed all that much over the years)


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

3005 said:


> I emailed Ginault but they haven't yet responded.


Yes, I sent John around 8 e-mails in the last month without getting any reply.

This was not my experience so far.

I hope they are busy preparing the orders of Black Friday and that they come back to us soon.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

I read through most of this thread and ended up cancelling my order for now. I'm hesitant about the reliability of the movement. There seem to be a disproportionately high number of QC and reliability issues. :-(

If anyone here knows something and can ease my worries, I'd be more than happy to be persuaded. I really _want_ to buy, but my gut tells me otherwise right now.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Well it's only one sample, but mine is going on 2 years, has had no issues, and is running flawlessly at +4s/d.

If mine were lost or stolen, I would immediately buy a replacement, at full MSRP if no discount was available.


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

Avo said:


> Well it's only one sample, but mine is going on 2 years, has had no issues, and is running at flawlessly at +4s/d.
> 
> If mine were lost or stolen, I would immediately buy a replacement, at full MSRP if no discount was available.


Same and agreed. It's been my most accurate watch as I mentioned and there are any number of days I find myself wearing it over my 16570. I've been tempted to get the date version just to have should I ever want to have a second one.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

My only concern in the long long run is the bracelet. Any competent watchsmith can repair the movement easily, spare parts for hands are also available too because you can use Rolex aftermarket parts, and same goes for the crystal and the gaskets. But the bracelet... To find a bracelet of that quality you would have to go for the real thing and that's a big hit in your wallet. But I'm talking about long time, lifetime time.

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

acg2010 said:


> Same and agreed. It's been my most accurate watch as I mentioned and there are any number of days I find myself wearing it over my 16570. I've been tempted to get the date version just to have should I ever want to have a second one.


I've owned two Ginaults and can't fault their time keeping or service turnaround. My current daily wear smurf lume example is running +1 s/d when worn daily and removed at night. It will be more variable if power reserve drops below say 20% but this is the same experience with watches from high end companies like JLC.
I would DEFINITELY buy another if this got lost/stolen. Buy with confidence.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> My only concern in the long long run is the bracelet. Any competent watchsmith can repair the movement easily, spare parts for hands are also available too because you can use Rolex aftermarket parts, and same goes for the crystal and the gaskets. But the bracelet... To find a bracelet of that quality you would have to go for the real thing and that's a big hit in your wallet. But I'm talking about long time, lifetime time.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


I already bought a spare bracelet. ;-)

And now I am trying to buy a spare bezel insert and a flat crystal to replace the domed one.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

3005 said:


> There seem to be a disproportionately high number of QC and reliability issues. :-(
> 
> If anyone here knows something and can ease my worries, I'd be more than happy to be persuaded. I really _want_ to buy, but my gut tells me otherwise right now.


I don't have the impression that there is a high number of QC issues. As always, most of the people who are happy don't write about it.

Having said that, I have owned mine for a bit more than a year and, in this time, my Explorer has seen very little wrist time.

Accuracy varies between 5-7 secs/day.

YMMV.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> trying to buy a spare bezel insert


Surprised they're not biting your hand off at $80 a pop for the standard black version and a whopping, eye-watering $120 for the green.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mrmorfo said:


> spare parts for hands are also available too because you can use Rolex aftermarket parts


No, you need hands that fit the ETA 2824. But there are even more of those available.



mrmorfo said:


> same goes for the crystal and the gaskets.


True.



mrmorfo said:


> But the bracelet... To find a bracelet of that quality you would have to go for the real thing and that's a big hit in your wallet. But I'm talking about long time, lifetime time.


Exactly. Unless you have a disaster like a motorcycle accident, that bracelet is going to outlast you.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> now I am trying to buy a spare bezel insert


I'd be surprised if they sell you one. Most watch companies won't sell spare parts.

Perhaps that's why they haven't responded to your 8 emails in the past month?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> I'd be surprised if they sell you one. Most watch companies won't sell spare parts.
> 
> Perhaps that's why they haven't responded to your 8 emails in the past month?


They definitely sell spares incl the bezel. Several on here have received them. I don't think thats the reason for the slow response. I've noticed replies can be sporadic.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

True, but there are countless ETA 2824 Mercedes hands and sword hands out there. I think we all agree that this watch can be very easy to maintain.

Even if they didn't sell you spare inserts (which they do), you can search on eBay for real Submariner inserts and I'm 99% sure they would fit. The pearl won't have the mystical sand lume, though, just the "normal" Rolex lume ;-P

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> I'd be surprised if they sell you one. Most watch companies won't sell spare parts.
> 
> Perhaps that's why they haven't responded to your 8 emails in the past month?


I don't think so, since John already sent me a quotation and, in his last e-mail, asked about my model. After that, silence... :-O


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Well that's not good. I hope they get back on track soon.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

website is still up:think:


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

Porsche993 said:


> website is still up:think:


Working fine for me...


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Ginault ended up getting back to me later the same day I emailed them with a few questions (Wednesday, I believe).


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

That’s my experience as well. They (John) can be vert fast and responsive or take several mails and weeks to answer. I’ll wait. It’s not urgent.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I have already ordered a bezel insert as a spare part from John at Ginault.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Fun little review comparing 6 different Homages. I guess the old adage you get what you pay for applies here too


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Money quote: "It [the Ginault] is the best overall fit and finish of all the watches we have looked at." (Invicta, Tisell, Steinhart, Squale, Davosa, Ginault)


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Avo said:


> Money quote: "It [the Ginault] is the best overall fit and finish of all the watches we have looked at." (Invicta, Tisell, Steinhart, Squale, Davosa, Ginault)


Also double the price of the most expensive piece in that comparison. That should be expected.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Also double the price of the most expensive piece in that comparison. That should be expected.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


50% more with discount. Well worth the premium. I've yet to hear of ANYONE who paid retail price.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> I've yet to hear of ANYONE who paid retail price.


If I am not mistaken, they still offer a discount on their website.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

29% at the moment. And I'm sure you can reach an agreement for a bit more. It's definitely good value.

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> 29% at the moment. And I'm sure you can reach an agreement for a bit more. It's definitely good value.
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


Wow, that's still a good deal. I got 35% discount last year and thought they would be slowly reducing the discount to, at some point, start selling at the list price.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Sorry, I meant 20%, fat fingers on my mobile, lol. Still a great deal.









Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

nepatriot said:


> You're right, in the way, because we form some sort of opinions about things as we filter what may or may not interest us. You had to have formed some opinion of Ginualt before deciding to order one. There are facts that can be known about things without seeing one, like specs. Opinions on subjective things, like fit and finish, can be based on the opinions of others, or one's one personal experience.
> 
> I've been very clear that I have no personal experience with Ginault. And fair: on subjective fit and finish, I have stipulating I'll accept the opinions of others, that the Ginault is a well put together watch.
> 
> ...





Ryeguy said:


> That said, Ginault nails this replication perfectly while Squale, Steinhart (which I own several of) and the other host of Sub homages all fail (intentionally or not) to do well.


You guys that keep harping on this make my head hurt. Squale and steinhart didn't "fail" at anything. They weren't mistakes. They made slightly different cases because they wanted to. They were both in business before smaller companies made it a thing to try and actually benchmark the original. They are not trying to occupy the space in the market held by tissell, silver, ginault, mkii, etc. So please stop it.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

92gli said:


> You guys that keep harping on this make my head hurt. Squale and steinhart didn't "fail" at anything. They weren't mistakes. They made slightly different cases because they wanted to. They were both in business before smaller companies made it a thing to try and actually benchmark the original. They are not trying to occupy the space in the market held by tissell, silver, ginault, mkii, etc. So please stop it.


It won't necessarily make your head stop hurting, but "failed" here doesn't mean "tried but couldn't manage it," as the parenthetical "intentionally or not" emphasises. Rather, it's another way of saying "didn't do," like when you say, "I failed to get the laundry done today," which means that you didn't do it, and not that you tried without success. I don't believe, and I don't think anyone else believes, that Steinhart keeps trying to curve its lugs but just can't pull it off. This is brand enthusiasm such as you find on any brand enthusiast forum or thread. It means they like the design and manufacturing choices this company makes.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

Avo said:


> Money quote: "It [the Ginault] is the best overall fit and finish of all the watches we have looked at." (Invicta, Tisell, Steinhart, Squale, Davosa, Ginault)


I agree 100% with this statement. Although Ginault is almost double the price of Steinhart, Squale, ect but just how refined the Rover is built, and how well it is crafted, every details, to me is well worth the price. I don't think you can find another watch at this price point that comes with all these details, quality and craftsmanship (again I said quality/craftsmanship not spec on paper/feature)

The old adage of you get what you paid for, in the case of Ginault really is true.

Justbluefish on Youtube did a great Sub homage comparison review ranging from the entry level Invicta, Tisell, to mid range ones like Steinhart and finally the top end Ginault. I think it is a very fair review based on my personal experience with all these brands. But I can see the Squale boys rioting over this. LOL


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

92gli said:


> You guys that keep harping on this make my head hurt. Squale and steinhart didn't "fail" at anything. They weren't mistakes. They made slightly different cases because they wanted to. They were both in business before smaller companies made it a thing to try and actually benchmark the original. They are not trying to occupy the space in the market held by tissell, silver, ginault, mkii, etc. So please stop it.


I agree, I don't think Steinhart "failed" at making a Sub homage. In fact, I think Steinhart is extremely smart and calculating from a business perspective, that's why they are able to hit the sweet spot for many many people who wants the Submariner look but cannot afford a Rolex.

In order to construct a case, bracelet, bezel assembly, and a dial at the level of Ginault's Rover, it would pose a HUGE cost increase for Steinhart, and that would most likely mean less sales for Steinhart, economic101 higher the price less the demand. (if I were to operate a business, I'd also choose Steinhart's mid-range quality/price strategy) But from our perspective, the perspective of the group of people who are willing to pay more for close to Rolex quality, Steinhart, failed to address our desire/request.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Ended up re-placing my order on Friday. Hoping for a delivery this week!


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> A little Bulang&Sons love.


I find it so much nicer to wear on a strap.....the bracelet is awesome...but w/a strap the watch feels 50% lighter


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I find it so much nicer to wear on a strap.....the bracelet is awesome...but w/a strap the watch feels 50% lighter


Agreed. I've only worn it on straps. For me the deployant clasp is too long and I also like a lighter watch that stays put on the wrist. Only time I'd put up with the negatives is in the summer as sweat makes the leather funky


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## Mr. Igelit (Jun 15, 2018)

Guys, do you have any experience with ordering Ginault to EU these days? I've placed the order on 14th November. They send it to EU and then send it the customer from the EU center. As far as I know the tracking number should be provided after the dispatch from EU. I didn't receive anything yet (3 weeks from order)..

Has anyone placed the order to EU in the last months? How long did it take?

I sold everything and am wearing my Casio F-91W since then - so I'm looking forward to the Ginault


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Just got a notification that my Ocean Rover is out for delivery today!


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Received my Ocean Rover and slapped it on a jubilee. Quality seems very nice-the dial is immaculate. My only complaint is that the rotor is extremely noisy, but that seems to be normal for ETA and ETA-based movements. Timekeeping seems to be around 6-7 seconds per day right now.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

3005 said:


> My only complaint is that the rotor is extremely noisy, but that seems to be normal for ETA and ETA-based movements. Timekeeping seems to be around 6-7 seconds per day right now.


Compared to JLC Geophysics ceramic bearing rotor the OR's is mouse fart quiet. Looks great on the Jubilee.
Is your watch brand new. If yes, timekeeping may change over next 10 days as the movement settles down.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

That seems like a surprisingly good end-link fit with the jubilee!


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

3005 said:


> Received my Ocean Rover and slapped it on a jubilee. Quality seems very nice-the dial is immaculate. My only complaint is that the rotor is extremely noisy, but that seems to be normal for ETA and ETA-based movements. Timekeeping seems to be around 6-7 seconds per day right now.
> 
> View attachment 13700871


Sharp! And a nice field jacket to top it off. Congrats on the pick-up

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

3005 said:


> View attachment 13700871


Nice!

May I ask where you got that jubilee from?


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Nice!
> 
> May I ask where you got that jubilee from?


I got it from Watch Gecko. The endlink fit isn't perfect out of the box-I had to file the points a little bit because they were coming into contact with the very bottom of the bezel. Once I did that, though, it feels as though it was made for the watch.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I'll take a look at it. Thanks for taking the time to answer.


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I'll take a look at it. Thanks for taking the time to answer.


Get one of the fat spring bar ones from wholesaleoutlet990 on ebay. They're designed as affordable aftermarket rolex replacements and they fit pretty much perfectly out of the box.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

acg2010 said:


> Get one of the fat spring bar ones from wholesaleoutlet990 on ebay. They're designed as affordable aftermarket rolex replacements and they fit pretty much perfectly out of the box.


Thanks for the hint! Appreciate!


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

nothing can compare to the amazing oyster bracelet imho 

noisy rotor is also something I have noticed with my OR, I have even contacted the Ginault Europe Service Point in is this regard with the following feedback (translated from German into English by me):

"It is completely normal that the rotor is clearly heard. Even more than the usual ETA movements. The structure of the Ginault is very light-bodied, since the movement holding ring is also made of metal. Apart from gaskets, all parts of the inside are made of metal, then it is still fixed in the case with metal screws, in addition the dome of the bottom lid serves at the same time as a speaker box. A grind sound is then clearly heard especially when the power reserve is too low".

So everything is fine with our OR


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I wouldn’t say the Ginault is louder than my Explorer, but YMMV. 

Don’t hear it more e.g. at night, while sleeping.


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## blackcoffee (Oct 5, 2018)

Mr. Igelit said:


> Guys, do you have any experience with ordering Ginault to EU these days? I've placed the order on 14th November. They send it to EU and then send it the customer from the EU center. As far as I know the tracking number should be provided after the dispatch from EU. I didn't receive anything yet (3 weeks from order)..
> 
> Has anyone placed the order to EU in the last months? How long did it take?
> 
> I sold everything and am wearing my Casio F-91W since then - so I'm looking forward to the Ginault


I placed an order on October 27th, and it was dispatched from their EU center on November 9th, with radio silence in between.

Amazing precision on mine. Worn, it's +2.2 spd, and resting crown up it gives me -0.9 spd according to last weeks measurement.


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

3005 said:


> Received my Ocean Rover and slapped it on a jubilee. Quality seems very nice-the dial is immaculate. My only complaint is that the rotor is extremely noisy, but that seems to be normal for ETA and ETA-based movements. Timekeeping seems to be around 6-7 seconds per day right now.
> 
> View attachment 13700871


Love the jubees! more pictures from different angles?

As for the rotor noise, as you wear the watch longer on the wrist and the mainspring wound up tighter, the rotor will not be able to rotate/spin as freely as when the mainspring is loose and it will disappear. This is true across many different types of movements.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

hi all does anyone know if ginault sells spare parts? I am looking for the blue / gold bezel insert...

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kovy71 said:


> hi all does anyone know if ginault sells spare parts? I am looking for the blue / gold bezel insert...
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


Yes, it does.

I already got a quotation for a 181070LSILN bezel insert, but suddenly don't receive any answer from John...

I also asked about a flat crystal to replace the dome one.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Still skeptical but got one for a steal from a YouTubed who did a video about I will have to see what it’s about will line it up with nth and Steinhart OVM 

Very curious comes ups tommorow


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## acg2010 (Nov 23, 2008)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> I already got a quotation for a 181070LSILN bezel insert, but suddenly don't receive any answer from John...
> 
> I also asked about a flat crystal to replace the dome one.


If you want a new crystal, just buy the clarks one for a 16610 without cyclops. The dimensions on the Ginault are designed to fit genuine parts. So, the 15 buck one from Clarks should do just nicely. I'm sure I can find the part number if you're interested in that route.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

acg2010 said:


> If you want a new crystal, just buy the clarks one for a 16610 without cyclops. The dimensions on the Ginault are designed to fit genuine parts. So, the 15 buck one from Clarks should do just nicely. I'm sure I can find the part number if you're interested in that route.


Thanks! Just wanted to compare prices before pulling the trigger.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

love the watch:









Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kovy71 said:


> love the watch:


Nice, huh? ;-)

Welcome!

Mine says hi!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Amazing how much the red second hand impacts the aesthetic


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## MadMex (Jun 18, 2010)

The more posts I see about this watch, the more I love my Armida!


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Mine just arrived will see how it lives to the hype


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Variety is the spice of life


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Mine just arrived will see how it lives to the hype


I like the colors but I'd need the date function.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Rhorya said:


> I like the colors but I'd need the date function.


More than half of my watches are no date easier in rotation and like the cleaner look

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)




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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


>


Looks like a nice Fender Jazz Bass. ;-)


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

So, if the 185066C1LRD has been dubbed the "Iron Man", would this be "X-Men"?









Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> I already got a quotation for a 181070LSILN bezel insert, but suddenly don't receive any answer from John...
> 
> I also asked about a flat crystal to replace the dome one.


i also got a quote, 89USD plus shipping, quite expensive I think... let's see if I get a reply now

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kovy71 said:


> i also got a quote, 89USD plus shipping, quite expensive I think... let's see if I get a reply now
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


Thanks. I am still waiting............


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## MarkGT900 (Mar 6, 2018)

I have been collecting Subs and Sub homages from top, 116610/16610, to bottom, Invicta/Casio for the past two decades. I have bought and sold many Sub homages along the way. I really think the emergence of the Ocean Rover changed the game. I know many Steinhart fan boys think the Rover cannot touch the OVM because for $500 you get a ETA movement and a ceramic insert. Howcome the Rover without neither cost double? Right? I myself thought the same way in the past. But knowing what I know now I'd like to offer a different view looking pass just the spec on paper. Not all ceramic insersts are created equal. For example, we all know that many TVs now a day are all marketed as 4K, but just like the ceramic inserts, not all 4k panels are the same. Some 4k panels cost upwards of $2,000 and some cost just $400 for the same size. This is also true for inserts. I know fanboys will riot and say there is nothing cheap about the ceramic insert on the OVM. But just do a close up comparison of the ceramic insert on the OVM vs the ceramic insert on the 116610.....the difference is obvious. In this case, I'd rather have a top end 1080P panel than a entry level 4K panel. Same is true, I'd rather have a great aluminum insert than a ceramic insert that was cheaply made.

This goes beyond just the insert. Take applied indices for example, the forged applied indices on the Rover, examined closely under a loupe is just amazing. This kind of level and quality is rarely seen on watches that cost less than 3k. The dial where the indices sits on is also another prime example; that high-gloss enamel dial is indication enough of the type of capability that is held at Ginault. The guys there really know what they are doing. The list goes on and on, the midcase, caseback, bezel ring, the hands (with that curve) all of these parts are superior to its $500 rival. But often enough, these fine details are not addressed and now shown on paper spec.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

MarkGT900 said:


> I have been collecting Subs and Sub homages from top, 116610/16610, to bottom, Invicta/Casio for the past two decades. I have bought and sold many Sub homages along the way. I really think the emergence of the Ocean Rover changed the game. I know many Steinhart fan boys think the Rover cannot touch the OVM because for $500 you get a ETA movement and a ceramic insert. Howcome the Rover without neither cost double? Right? I myself thought the same way in the past. But knowing what I know now I'd like to offer a different view looking pass just the spec on paper. Not all ceramic insersts are created equal. For example, we all know that many TVs now a day are all marketed as 4K, but just like the ceramic inserts, not all 4k panels are the same. Some 4k panels cost upwards of $2,000 and some cost just $400 for the same size. This is also true for inserts. I know fanboys will riot and say there is nothing cheap about the ceramic insert on the OVM. But just do a close up comparison of the ceramic insert on the OVM vs the ceramic insert on the 116610.....the difference is obvious. In this case, I'd rather have a top end 1080P panel than a entry level 4K panel. Same is true, I'd rather have a great aluminum insert than a ceramic insert that was cheaply made.
> 
> This goes beyond just the insert. Take applied indices for example, the forged applied indices on the Rover, examined closely under a loupe is just amazing. This kind of level and quality is rarely seen on watches that cost less than 3k. The dial where the indices sits on is also another prime example; that high-gloss enamel dial is indication enough of the type of capability that is held at Ginault. The guys there really know what they are doing. The list goes on and on, the midcase, caseback, bezel ring, the hands (with that curve) all of these parts are superior to its $500 rival. But often enough, these fine details are not addressed and now shown on paper spec.
> 
> View attachment 13728557


Well put and I'm in perfect agreement. I would add the precision machining on the end links, rotating bezel action and lets not forget the movement regulation which often exceeds the performance of the big boys (at least my OR does). The detractors just can't get beyond the term 'homage'.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Well put and I'm in perfect agreement. I would add the precision machining on the end links, rotating bezel action and lets not forget the movement regulation which often exceeds the performance of the big boys (at least my OR does). The detractors just can't get beyond the term 'homage'.


It's damn near a copy - it's beyond an homage. I've owned several. Sold them for that very reason.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> It's damn near a copy - it's beyond an homage. I've owned several. Sold them for that very reason.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aren't you a Tissell fan? Those seem like way more of a copy that this Ginault. The Ginault copies the case from one model, the dial from another, the hands from a third and the bracelet from a forth. It is more of a mash-up than a copy.

I would certainly love to see Ginault make something more original in design, or even make another mash-up such as a sword hand GMT with a 24 hour scale dial and fully indexed divers bezel, but to call the Ginault a "damn near copy" then promote the Tissell is having a pretty inconsistent opinion.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> It's damn near a copy - it's beyond an homage. I've owned several. Sold them for that very reason.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not according to my dictionaries definition of homage. Too many nods to too many different eras of Rolex design, with a few unique flourishes eg red second hand


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I would certainly love to see Ginault make something more original in design


Its in the pipeline according to John. Personally I'd love to see the Silent Service II become a reality


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> Its in the pipeline according to John. Personally I'd love to see the Silent Service II become a reality


I've been in search of the "perfect" affordable traveller's / diver's GMT for quite a while. The closest I own are a Steinhart Black Sea and an Alpina Alpiner Ice Legacy. The Steinhart offers 300 meters water resistance and a divers bezel for elapsed time (GMT scale on the dial). The negative is the ETA 2893-2 movement.

The Alpina offers an independently adjustable hour hand (such as found on modern Rolex GMT's and Omega GMT's), but only 100m water resistance and utilizes a compass bezel insert instead of an elapsed time insert. Also, at 44mm diameter, the Alpina wears a bit large.

If Ginault could modify their 2824-2 copy movement the way Alpina modifies theirs, with the GMT hand and the jumping hour hand for quick time zone adjustments, and keep the OR case, handset, bezel, and crystal, that would be damn near perfect in my mind. Just print the GMT scale on the rehaut such as done on the Alpina so we can retain the bezel for elapsed time measurements. (I know you can use a GMT bezel to track a third time zone, but elapsed time is far more useful in my mind).


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

A GMT would be a worthy contender. Its a complication none of my watches currently offer so I could find a home for an OR/GMT


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

You do realise (and all the homage-haters) that what you might be doing is actually steering some people towards buying high end replicas?

What's the difference between a homage buyer and a replica buyer? Both like the same watch, but one of them is willing to be honest. If you keep bashing homages, if you take that honesty out, what do you have left? I'll tell you: A guy with a watch like this, but with Rolex printed in the dial.


Dec1968 said:


> It's damn near a copy - it's beyond an homage. I've owned several. Sold them for that very reason.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Aren't you a Tissell fan? Those seem like way more of a copy that this Ginault. The Ginault copies the case from one model, the dial from another, the hands from a third and the bracelet from a forth. It is more of a mash-up than a copy.
> 
> I would certainly love to see Ginault make something more original in design, or even make another mash-up such as a sword hand GMT with a 24 hour scale dial and fully indexed divers bezel, but to call the Ginault a "damn near copy" then promote the Tissell is having a pretty inconsistent opinion.


My Tisell is up for sale for the same reason. I'm off homage watches.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Not according to my dictionaries definition of homage. Too many nods to too many different eras of Rolex design, with a few unique flourishes eg red second hand


That's like a criminal on the run changing their hair color and adding a beard to avoid detection. Lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> That's like a criminal on the run changing their hair color and adding a beard to avoid detection. Lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hardly LOL. If the Ginault was named RoLEX instead of ROLEX you'd have a point.

Clearly you have no interest in owning a Homage so pony up and get the 'real' thing. No skin off my nose. Personally speaking nothing Rolex offers looks as good as the OR all things considered.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Hardly LOL. If the Ginault was named RoLEX instead of ROLEX you'd have a point.
> 
> Clearly you have no interest in owning a Homage so pony up and get the 'real' thing. No skin off my nose. Personally speaking nothing Rolex offers looks as good as the OR all things considered.


I've had a Rolex. I own Omega now and prefer it. Just don't like the homage concept personally anymore. My two cents. Not saying you shouldn't or can't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> My Tisell is up for sale for the same reason. I'm off homage watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is what I don't understand.

I don't think anyone on this thread cares that you have changed your opinion on homage watches. There are tons of people on WUS who enjoy them and tons who dislike them. It is a topic that has been beat to death long before you or I even joined WUS.

You went from being an enthusiastic supporter of Tisell and a Ginault owner to now being not interested in homage watches - fine, its your collection, buy and enjoy whatever floats your boat.

But rejoining a Ginault conversation (a brand you admittedly have no further interest in) just to call it a "copy" is just nuts. Given you now own an Omega, are you going to log into the Helson threads and call their watches "copies"? Have you rejoined your Tisell threads to call them out as Fauxlex wannabe's?

You strike me more as an anti-homage zealot now with some misguided focus on Ginault. It is not a positive image.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> My Tisell is up for sale for the same reason. I'm off homage watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


DP


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> I don't think anyone on this thread cares that you have changed your opinion on homage watches. There are tons of people on WUS who enjoy them and tons who dislike them. It is a topic that has been beat to death long before you or I even joined WUS.
> 
> ...


Not at all. You sound like someone who can't handle my decision that I'm sharing, which is also a large part of this forum. Zealot? Not at all. Ginault is WHY I am now turned off from the homage scene. I find that incredibly relevant on this thread. Unless you demand it only be filled with people who love the brand. Are you intolerant of opposing viewpoints? Seems to me like you are. Kind of sad, isn't it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

We are not intolerant to anything, this is a DISCUSSION forum after all.

But you must admit that perhaps going to a Beatles fan club to discuss how bad were the Beatles and how cool were the Rolling Stones instead, MIGHT be a very unwise and not particularly polite and respectful idea...

Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> Not at all. You sound like someone who can't handle my decision that I'm sharing, which is also a large part of this forum. Zealot? Not at all. Ginault is WHY I am now turned off from the homage scene. I find that incredibly relevant on this thread. Unless you demand it only be filled with people who love the brand. Are you intolerant of opposing viewpoints? Seems to me like you are. Kind of sad, isn't it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not at all. "Tolerance" is allowing other people to enjoy something you personally have no interest in. "Intolerance" is voicing the opinion the people who are enjoying a topic are wrong to do so. A "zealot" is someone who feels compelled to voice their intolerance.

I don't see how your opinion re: homages at large is in any way relevant to this thread. As a matter of fact, read through the first 20 odd pages of this specific thread and you will see it has been yet again beat to death and resulted in several members being banned.

I suggest that now that you have voiced your opinion, it is best to simply move on. I do not want to see a re-run of what happened previously.

Truly - go enjoy your new Omega. There is an entire forum dedicated to the brand.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Not at all. "Tolerance" is allowing other people to enjoy something you personally have no interest in. "Intolerance" is voicing the opinion the people who are enjoying a topic are wrong to do so. A "zealot" is someone who feels compelled to voice their intolerance.
> 
> I don't see how your opinion re: homages at large is in any way relevant to this thread. As a matter of fact, read through the first 20 odd pages of this specific thread and you will see it has been yet again beat to death and resulted in several members being banned.
> 
> ...


Here, let's put some definitions out there. You seem confused.

tol·er·ance
/ˈtäl(ə)rəns/
noun
1.
the ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.
"the tolerance of corruption"

zeal·ot
/ˈzelət/
noun
a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

You're the zealot and the intolerant if you truly understand the definitions of both words.

You talk of being tolerant, yet tell me my opinion doesn't belong in the same breath. What's that about? Are you claiming that anyone whose views differ from yours or their lack of love for said product has to, HAS TO, move on and not share their opinion?

Please......

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Whatever, dude. But you are the guy posting largely in the Ginault lovin' fan club thread about how much you do dislike homages in general and Ginaults in particular. No matter how many times you reach out for the dictionary or how much you try to twist reality, the fact that you keep insisting on your dislike for these watches doesn't say anything positive about you. I respect all opinions, and honestly I understand where are you coming from. But by insisting so many times about it you just make yourself come across in a way that I am sure you are not.

You dislike homages? We do not. Enjoy your watches and let us enjoy ours, how is that so difficult to understand?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


> Whatever, dude. But you are the guy posting largely in the Ginault lovin' fan club thread about how much you do dislike homages in general and Ginaults in particular. No matter how many times you reach out for the dictionary or how much you try to twist reality, the fact that you keep insisting on your dislike for these watches doesn't say anything positive about you. I respect all opinions, and honestly I understand where are you coming from. But by insisting so many times about it you just make yourself come across in a way that I am sure you are not.
> 
> You dislike homages? We do not. Enjoy your watches and let us enjoy ours, how is that so difficult to understand?


Well said.

Here is an example. My preferred dive watch brand is Seiko. I'm a fan. In fact, I'm such a fan of Seiko dive watches that I purchased one of the 2,000 SLA017's that Seiko manufactured, paying an AD full MSRP for the watch.

Look into my post history to see how many times I've joined discussions on the various "homages" to the SLA017. Zero. Their enjoyment of their Armida or whatever does nothing to diminish the joy I have for owning the real deal Seiko.

Again, I encourage you to join discussions of brands / models you like. I'll simply ignore your posts here bashing homages in general and Ginault specifically.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> We are not intolerant to anything, this is a DISCUSSION forum after all.
> 
> But you must admit that perhaps going to a Beatles fan club to discuss how bad were the Beatles and how cool were the Rolling Stones instead, MIGHT be a very unwise and not particularly polite and respectful idea...
> 
> Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk


Great point. I shared why I moved on. I was skeptical prior to buying TWO Ginault watches. Once I got them, I obviously noticed the quality (sans movement issues on one watch), but quickly the love dissipated once I personally experienced what I experienced wearing them - and I thought sharing that experience was of course not only allowable, but welcome.

I'm not BASHING the brand, but I am saying it's more of a copy due to their design. Now of course they aren't trying to be a Folex by putting the name and logo on the watch like Noob and others, but there is no denying the exacting nature of the copy-like feel. Especially when certain Rolex parts can directly fit onto the watch.

That's all I'm saying. Not sure why some people have to get so defensive or butthurt. Relax. No one kicked a baby.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## FireMonk3y (May 9, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> I already got a quotation for a 181070LSILN bezel insert, but suddenly don't receive any answer from John...
> 
> I also asked about a flat crystal to replace the dome one.


Had this same problem, quick response to my first email. They also asked me to do a follow up review, as I did the first review of the OR on WUS. Told him that I wanted it and requested an invoice or PayPal account, then nothing. I've sent several email over the course of about 2 months, with no response. I was one of the first purchasers, and am very disappointed in this. I'm to the point now that I may just sell it and look for something else.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Whatever, dude. But you are the guy posting largely in the Ginault lovin' fan club thread about how much you do dislike homages in general and Ginaults in particular. No matter how many times you reach out for the dictionary or how much you try to twist reality, the fact that you keep insisting on your dislike for these watches doesn't say anything positive about you. I respect all opinions, and honestly I understand where are you coming from. But by insisting so many times about it you just make yourself come across in a way that I am sure you are not.
> 
> You dislike homages? We do not. Enjoy your watches and let us enjoy ours, how is that so difficult to understand?


Couldn't have said it better. Ginault bashing has become a bit of a thing over the years. Dec 1968 is just one of many and won't be the last.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

FireMonk3y said:


> Had this same problem, quick response to my first email. They also asked me to do a follow up review, as I did the first review of the OR on WUS. Told him that I wanted it and requested an invoice or PayPal account, then nothing. I've sent several email over the course of about 2 months, with no response. I was one of the first purchasers, and am very disappointed in this. I'm to the point now that I may just sell it and look for something else.


same issue here and i just want a new bezel insert... they also said they can provide it but no reply since - strange

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Couldn't have said it better. Ginault bashing has become a bit of a thing over the years. Dec 1968 is just one of many and won't be the last.


If there are 'many' as you state, then there's a trend.

I clarified I'm in no way bashing. Chill out and stop being so overly sensitive. Did I bruise your ego or something by saying something that's not glowing about the Ginault? This thread doesn't have rules that dictate what is and isn't allowed regarding open and honest dialogue on the brand and their products.

Maybe just ignore what I say, because if you respond, you invite responses as well.

How is sharing my personal experience and thoughts considered bashing? Seriously. You need to take a step back and drop the overly sensitive bit. It's called a conversation. Not participation trophy day.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

kovy71 said:


> same issue here and i just want a new bezel insert... they also said they can provide it but no reply since - strange
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


As much as I really like my OR and would look strongly at a GMT or fully indexed bezel / drilled lug mil-sub homage, their spotty customer service communication would have to be addressed before I made another purchase.

My personal experience was positive during my purchase almost 2 years ago and it was again fine when I had my OR repaired under warranty (again, more than a year ago), but the numerous recent reports of unanswered messages give me pause.

I recall Steinhart went through a similar CS situation a few years ago. I'm going to chalk it up to rapid growth outpacing resources, but again, I'll look for this being addressed prior to contemplating another investment.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> As much as I really like my OR and would look strongly at a GMT or fully indexed bezel / drilled lug mil-sub homage, their spotty customer service communication would have to be addressed before I made another purchase.
> 
> My personal experience was positive during my purchase almost 2 years ago and it was again fine when I had my OR repaired under warranty (again, more than a year ago), but the numerous recent reports of unanswered messages give me pause.
> 
> I recall Steinhart went through a similar CS situation a few years ago. I'm going to chalk it up to rapid growth outpacing resources, but again, I'll look for this being addressed prior to contemplating another investment.


Same here.

Never had an issue with them and even had some great CS support with the EU service center, but right now I am disappointed. I hope this is just temporary and they can catch up with all the requests.

Having said that, I have no plans to part with my OR.


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## BoTime! (Jul 9, 2018)

On Sunday, I ordered a 181270GSLN. I just like the idea that some of it is made in the USA and the company is based here. Hopefully, customer service will improve as they continue to (hopefully) grow their business. I asked for the watch to be delivered after the holiday as I've already had issues with USPS, UPS and FedEx recently due to what I assume is a very high-load demand for shipping at this time of the year. I don't want my watch to get held up, misrouted, etc. John followed up to tell me the order was ready today, but will wait until after Christmas to ship per my request. I look forward to seeing the new timepiece. Cheers!


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

i just got the link from John to order the insert, they can even provide green & silver ones  All good here with fast reply as this is my first experience with their customer service I am happy 

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

kovy71 said:


> i just got the link from John to order the insert, they can even provide green & silver ones  All good here with fast reply as this is my first experience with their customer service I am happy
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


Great to hear!

If they would produce a GSL pip, fully indexed, bezel insert (mil-sub style), I would order one in a heartbeat!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Same here.
> 
> Never had an issue with them and even had some great CS support with the EU service center, but right now I am disappointed. I hope this is just temporary and they can catch up with all the requests.
> 
> Having said that, I have no plans to part with my OR.


UPDATE: also received an e-mail from John.

I have already ordered the bezel insert and the flat crystal.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

BTW, long time no pics!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> UPDATE: also received an e-mail from John.
> 
> I have already ordered the bezel insert and the flat crystal.


Any particular reason for the flat crystal? Are you planning to AR coat? I would imaging the glare to be stronger from a flat surface without treatment compared to the domed crystal.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Any particular reason for the flat crystal? Are you planning to AR coat? I would imaging the glare to be stronger from a flat surface without treatment compared to the domed crystal.


Do not plan to AR coat it initially. I am used to my Explorer's flat crystal and, to me, the Ginault has much more glare.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Do not plan to AR coat it initially. I am used to my Explorer's flat crystal and, to me, the Ginault has much more glare.


The highly reflective enamel dial on the OR could be playing a part there


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I will report once I have swapped the crystal.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

If possible, before and after pictures with the same positioning and lighting would be very instructive!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Artificial light seems the worse culprit for promoting glare.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Great idea. Will do my best.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Ginault’s domed crystal reflects more than their flat. I don’t think the flat needs AR, rather the domed does. I went with 2xAR on domed since I like the profile of the dome over flat.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> UPDATE: also received an e-mail from John.
> 
> I have already ordered the bezel insert and the flat crystal.


which bezel did you order? I think a no date bgw9 OR with a green bezel could be a nice idea


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> which bezel did you order? I think a no date bgw9 OR with a green bezel could be a nice idea


Thought about that combo but the red seconds clashes at least for me. Now it would work with a silver second hand.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Thought about that combo but the red seconds clashes at least for me. Now it would work with a silver second hand.


I think the red bezel on the 185066C1LRD would be a good fit on its big brother if they could put the GS lume on it. Should compliment the red seconds hand nice

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Thought about that combo but the red seconds clashes at least for me. Now it would work with a silver second hand.


i am probably going to do that altough cant decide if I want to order the silver gold or silver green insert - I'd like to go away a bit from the rolex look so it will probably be silver and gold..

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> which bezel did you order? I think a no date bgw9 OR with a green bezel could be a nice idea


Just the replacement for the 181070LSILN. My bezel insert is collecting quite some scratches and, at some point, I'd like to have a new one installed. Just bough it now, since no one knows what could happen to Ginault, although I wish them a long and successful life.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Just the replacement for the 181070LSILN. My bezel insert is collecting quite some scratches and, at some point, I'd like to have a new one installed. Just bough it now, since no one knows what could happen to Ginault, although I wish them a long and successful life.


Thats good forward thinking.


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## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Mine just arrived will see how it lives to the hype


The blue gold bezel is awesome, i ordered one from them to swap the original black one with a few months ago. It looks great, the gold sand lume, enamel dial blue gold bezel and the touch of red from the seconds hand all ties together very well, its a very warm bright watch thats just a pleasure to look at. I hope they offer a display caseback one day as the movement looks nice as is and they could pretty it up a smidge more without too much effort.

on one hand id like to save up for a monta but on the other im very tempted to save toward 181175lsin, decisions decisions


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> The blue gold bezel is awesome, i ordered one from them to swap the original black one with a few months ago. It looks great, the gold sand lume, enamel dial blue gold bezel and the touch of red from the seconds hand all ties together very well, its a very warm bright watch thats just a pleasure to look at. I hope they offer a display caseback one day as the movement looks nice as is and they could pretty it up a smidge more without too much effort.
> 
> on one hand id like to save up for a monta but on the other im very tempted to save toward 181175lsin, decisions decisions


Heck of a nice build but the blue and gold beZel does it for me
I


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> The highly reflective enamel dial on the OR could be playing a part there


In that case I think it doesn't matter much. The light gets reflected before it even reaches the dial. You would see the reflection clearly if you had a 2xAR crystal, though, and the effect is quite nice. It feels like there's no crystal!

Dammit... now I want a full AR crystal for mine, haha!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Heinekin_Skywalker said:


> on one hand id like to save up for a monta


Watch out for QC issues on Montas: misaligned date wheels and even date windows that should have never passed inspection at that price point (IMO). See pics in the Monta thread.


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

Avo said:


> Watch out for QC issues on Montas: misaligned date wheels and even date windows that should have never passed inspection at that price point (IMO). See pics in the Monta thread.


Instead, grab one of the original first issue Monta OceanKing with the Eterna 3909A movement. A much better piece.


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## Hunt175 (Dec 21, 2018)

Just wanted to pop in and say I checked this thread a lot when deciding on what to get and it was very helpful. I’ve enjoyed my ocean rover immensely every day since this summer. I’m always a little sad when I take it off to put on my bedside table at night and happy to pick it up every morning to put it on. I’ve found crown down to be the best position to compensate for gained time during the day and it’s pretty much stayed dead on time wise. Love the watch, it’s a joy to own.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Why take it off at night??

I always wear a watch with good lume (often the Ocean Rover) at night to check the time if/when I wake up …

And welcome to the forum!


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## BoTime! (Jul 9, 2018)

Agreed, love having a watch at night; never have to move very far to check the time and it's easy to fall back into slumber.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

BoTime! said:


> Agreed, love having a watch at night; never have to move very far to check the time and it's easy to fall back into slumber.


Count me in as a nighttime watch wearer....The OR Smurf is good and it goes pretty much all night...


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Drat...double post sorry...o|


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Listening to the movement tight on the ear can be very relaxing just before falling to sleep although I do usually take it off as I have been known to swing my arms and throw punches when asleep and that Stainless steel can be damaging


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## Hunt175 (Dec 21, 2018)

Avo said:


> Why take it off at night??
> 
> I always wear a watch with good lume (often the Ocean Rover) at night to check the time if/when I wake up &#8230;
> 
> And welcome to the forum!


I've found on mine that wearing it through the night it gains too much time. That and I used to wear a watch 24/7 but when I got a garmin watch that required almost daily charging and then an Apple Watch I got in the habit of taking them off.

Plus, (and this may sound dumb) I just get some satisfaction out of the ritual of taking it off and placing it a certain way in the nightstand last thing before bed and returning it to my wrist first thing in the morning.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Long time no pics.

Have a great weekend!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

By the way, I brought the watch to a local watchmaker to regulate it, since it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs/day. 

He said that the movement is an ETA 2824 clone and that there is a piece that is too heavy or too big (did not understand it very well, sorry), which can cause the watch to gain many seconds all of a sudden. 

Any similar experiences?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mine is 1 year old and still at +1s/day, better than my Tudor, actually. The good news is that getting the Ginault movement repaired/serviced should be really easy, being an ETA 2824 clone. Worst case you can always buy a top grade 2824 and replace it.


GarbanzoNegro said:


> By the way, I brought the watch to a local watchmaker to regulate it, since it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs/day.
> 
> He said that the movement is an ETA 2824 clone and that there is a piece that is too heavy or too big (did not understand it very well, sorry), which can cause the watch to gain many seconds all of a sudden.
> 
> Any similar experiences?


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> By the way, I brought the watch to a local watchmaker to regulate it, since it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs/day.
> 
> He said that the movement is an ETA 2824 clone and that there is a piece that is too heavy or too big (did not understand it very well, sorry), which can cause the watch to gain many seconds all of a sudden.
> 
> Any similar experiences?


Not my experience. My OR is almost 2 years old and still +1s/d if worn daily and removed at night. Regulated to 0 s/d per certification. Could your's have been inadvertently magnetized?


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## BoTime! (Jul 9, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Not my experience. My OR is almost 2 years old and still +1s/d if worn daily and removed at night. Regulated to 0 s/d per certification. Could your's have been inadvertently magnetized?


That was my first thought, especially since it was mentioned that "...it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs\day." Seems like a telltale sign of magnetism.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Not my experience. My OR is almost 2 years old and still +1s/d if worn daily and removed at night. Regulated to 0 s/d per certification. Could your's have been inadvertently magnetized?


It got magnetized previously (about 4 months earlier) and demagnetized. Worked fine afterwards. I also though that it could have been magnetized again, but he said it hadn't.

Mine has always been very constant, gaining approx. 5-6 secs/day.

Now, after having adjusted it, it is +2/4 spd. I am keeping an eye on it and will go back to him, if needed.

He also pressure tested the watch, but only to 10 bar. Before the summer, I should look for another watchmaker capable to testing it up to 30 bar.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> By the way, I brought the watch to a local watchmaker to regulate it, since it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs/day.
> 
> He said that the movement is an ETA 2824 clone and that there is a piece that is too heavy or too big (did not understand it very well, sorry), which can cause the watch to gain many seconds all of a sudden.
> 
> Any similar experiences?


I wouldn't be happy with that diagnosis as I can't imagine any part could cause an irregularity "all of a sudden" due to some kind of component size or weight issue, if there was any sort of miss-match with any of the components then I'd expect that it would be faulty from the start.

I would also be wary of any watchmaker than can only test to 10 Bar as even the Mall battery changers can usually test to that pressure.

Hopefully it's sorted now and you won't need to take it to anyone else.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> By the way, I brought the watch to a local watchmaker to regulate it, since it started gaining, suddenly, 25 secs/day.
> 
> He said that the movement is an ETA 2824 clone and that there is a piece that is too heavy or too big (did not understand it very well, sorry), which can cause the watch to gain many seconds all of a sudden.
> 
> Any similar experiences?


I echo the other's reports of very consistent time keeping. I haven't timed mine in quite some time, but it is certainly within my expectations for a mechanical watch. Mine is about 2 years old now.

I do have some questions regarding your watch maker's comments. On one hand he states the movement is an ETA 2824-2 clone (which is what we all expect) yet he follows that statement by saying there is an overly large component which effects consistent time keeping.

Is he stating the overly large component is endemic to the 2824-2 design (which it would be if the Ginault movement is an exact copy or clone of the ETA design) or is he saying Ginault modified the 2824-2 design slightly making the movement less capable of consistent accuracy?

I suspect your watch maker was making a comment about 2824-2 movements in general in regard to the overly large component. Assuming your watch maker is a reasonably educated professional, he has likely seen hundreds of 2824-2 movements, so he knows all about the movement and the design's strengths and weaknesses.

Don't forget, the 2824-2 movement was originally designed as a low cost, easy to manufacture, movement. It is best described as a "work horse". A watch maker would recognize this and likely point out the compromises ETA made in the design for manufacturing ease.

If Ginault had cloned an ETA 2892-2 movement, for example, your watch maker might've had a differing opinion regarding accuracy capability.

For what it is worth, my understanding is the Rolex 3135 is equally a work horse movement, designed for endurance and service life. I believe the 2824-2 is the right choice for this type of watch. If it were a dress watch not likely subject to knocks and abuse, a more delicate, but elegant, movement might've been selected.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I do have some questions regarding your watch maker's comments.


Unfortunately, I cannot give an answer to your questions.

If the watch does not perform well in the next weeks, I will go back and ask him. I did not have any references from this store, other than being centric. I expected them to be able to demagnetize the watch, but they said it was not necessary and just adjusted it.

I have bought a flat crystal and will change the stock one. For this, I will go to another watchmaker and hope to talk extensively about the watch with him.


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## jmai (Apr 7, 2017)

Just received my 2nd Ginault (sold the first one awhile back). Had to get it again after they released a date, sand lume model.

I thought the 1st one I had was amazing, this one just re-affirms all of my feelings about the watch. The case finishing and bracelet is literally as good as my Tudor BB36. This new model's crystal is also far less reflective than my 1st one due to the flatter crystal. The cyclops DEFINITELY could use an AR coating though. Magnification is good but the reflections render it very difficult to read.

With how high quality a this thing is, it makes me question whether Ginault is using cases and parts from manufacturers of super-replica companies. I'm not sure how I feel about that, if they are. At what point does a watch become a fake when all you're doing is rebranding it and tweaking a couple things?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

jmai said:


> I'm not sure how I feel about that, if they are. At what point does a watch become a fake when all you're doing is rebranding it and tweaking a couple things?
> 
> View attachment 13757425


Don't overthink it, just enjoy your new OR!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Have a great Sunday!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

^^^ How's it running?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> ^^^ How's it running?


Thanks for asking.

From this morning...










Very happy. Actually, always been.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

So consistent. Can;'t ask for more than that. Makes the watchmakers assertion there's a poorly designed part inside a little disingenuous. I'd change watch makers.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jmai said:


> Just received my 2nd Ginault (sold the first one awhile back). Had to get it again after they released a date, sand lume model.
> 
> I thought the 1st one I had was amazing, this one just re-affirms all of my feelings about the watch. The case finishing and bracelet is literally as good as my Tudor BB36. This new model's crystal is also far less reflective than my 1st one due to the flatter crystal. The cyclops DEFINITELY could use an AR coating though. Magnification is good but the reflections render it very difficult to read.
> 
> ...


No doubt they are outsourcing the case and bracelet from a fantastic cloning company. And that's fine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> So consistent. Can;'t ask for more than that. Makes the watchmakers assertion there's a poorly designed part inside a little disingenuous. I'd change watch makers.


I will. His statement did not make any sense to me and did not reflect my own experience. That is why I asked here for opinions/experiences.

Mine has always been very consistent, except for some deviations (e.g. got magnetized) that were easily solved and brought the watch back to the accuracy levels that we all know.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Again, I'm not certain the watch maker's assertion that the Ginault movement had design compromises is a poor reflection on Ginault. I suspect the watch maker was commenting more on the design compromises inherent to the 2824-2 design itself. 

I really don't think Ginault modified he 2824-2 design at all with the exception of the shock absorbing system and the longer pinion, neither of which would effect movement stability / capability for accuracy. 

Again, this is only my interpretation of what was reportedly stated, but I suspect the watch maker would've said the same thing if handed a 2824-2 powered Helson or Steinhart. It is a 2824-2 movement - don't expect COSC level performance from a workhorse design. 

I believe Ginault is able to tune every ounce of performance they can from the 2824-2 design, but even they are limited by the design itself.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> I believe Ginault is able to tune every ounce of performance they can from the 2824-2 design, but even they are limited by the design itself.


And a darn good job they do too. Puts some highend brands to shame.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> No doubt they are outsourcing the case and bracelet from a fantastic cloning company. And that's fine.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


"No doubt"? Please share your evidence to support such a conclusive statement.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> Again, I'm not certain the watch maker's assertion that the Ginault movement had design compromises is a poor reflection on Ginault. I suspect the watch maker was commenting more on the design compromises inherent to the 2824-2 design itself.
> 
> I really don't think Ginault modified he 2824-2 design at all with the exception of the shock absorbing system and the longer pinion, neither of which would effect movement stability / capability for accuracy.
> 
> ...


But as you know, there is a COSC grade 2824. As well as a Top and Elaborate. While many watch makers just install what ever grade they buy as-is, some regulate, other modify. One of my Doxa's runs at +2 to +3; the other +13, and actually arrived at +20. I've have 2824's at +20, others -4. I've have a Seiko 7S36 that was regulated to +4 by NEWW when I had some mods done.

Sounds like Ginault does a good job regulating the movement they use, regardless of whether they make, assemble, or buy & modify it.

ETA 2824 grades:
Standard - adjusted in two positions; accuracy of +/-12 sec/day up to +/- 30 sec/day
Elaborated - adjusted in three positions; accuracy of +/-7 sec/day up to +/- 20 sec/day
Top - adjusted in five positions; accuracy of +/-4 sec/day up to +/- 15 sec/day
Chronometer

ETA 2824 based movements:
Sellita caliber SW200
STP1-11
Valanvron VAL-24,
Hangzhou caliber 6300
Seagull caliber ST2130.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Today's measure:









Happy New Year!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Today's measure:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


woohoo


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Today's measure:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it will sync perfectly with the ball drop!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

nepatriot said:


> But as you know, there is a COSC grade 2824. As well as a Top and Elaborate. While many watch makers just install what ever grade they buy as-is, some regulate, other modify. One of my Doxa's runs at +2 to +3; the other +13, and actually arrived at +20. I've have 2824's at +20, others -4. I've have a Seiko 7S36 that was regulated to +4 by NEWW when I had some mods done.
> 
> Sounds like Ginault does a good job regulating the movement they use, regardless of whether they make, assemble, or buy & modify it.
> 
> ...


Yes, I understand and agree with your thoughts. At the risk of being too detail oriented, there is no "COSC" grade 2824-2, there is a "chronometer" grade which is adjusted to COSC standards.

The difference between the grades is more than just tuning, it also has to do with the shock protection system installed and the metallurgy used in the springs.

Ginault stated they could not source the shock protection system from SWATCH Group and had to source theirs instead from a Chinese source. They state their springs are Swiss in origin, but they do not specify the metallurgy. (As a side note, this was one of the sources of the "Made in USA" controversy earlier in this thread.)

Without knowing the metallurgy of the springs Ginault used, it is impossible to equate the Ginault movement to a standard ETA grade. That said, I still say Ginault did a hell of a job with the movement they used.

All this nuance stated, most movement people agree the 2892-2 design is superior to the 2824-2 from an accuracy perspective. Of course the 2892-2 has its own set of deficiencies, so there is no "right" answer, just the answer of which movement is best suited to which application. In this regard, I think Ginault made the correct decision.


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## nepatriot (Oct 1, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> Yes, I understand and agree with your thoughts. At the risk of being too detail oriented, there is no "COSC" grade 2824-2, there is a "chronometer" grade which is adjusted to COSC standards.
> 
> The difference between the grades is more than just tuning, it also has to do with the shock protection system installed and the metallurgy used in the springs.
> 
> ...


Yes, some parts enhancements to higher grades. Some are shock protection; others could effect level of regulation. But a good watch maker can probably regulate just about any Elaborate or even Standard grade 2824 to Top spec, or in some cases higher. Unless it's at the further edges as far as tolerances, or has a flaw.

I agree with your statement that there's no way to really pin a Ginault movement to a particular ETA grade. What we can do is put claims on parts aside, and focus on the results.

IMHO, what watch people say about their watch performance is often like fish stories . Regarding Ginault, it seems there is either some vast international conspiracy, masterminded by some evil watchmaker in a secret lair somewhere, or Ginault simply does a good job regulating. Like Occam's razor, the latter seems most reasonable, especially given that so many owners seem to report high accuracy.

Ginault seems to focus on regulation as a differentiation point, and deserve credit for their results.

But that is by no way miraculous. While many don't, many other watch makers also regulate their 2824's.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

First pic of 2019!

Have a great weekend!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

^^^ well played sir


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> UPDATE: also received an e-mail from John.
> 
> I have already ordered the bezel insert and the flat crystal.


Update: just received the package today with the bezel insert and with something like a gasket, instead of the flat crystal. :-(









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










I have already written John and sent him these pics and look forward to hearing back from him. Will keep you posted.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Been 6 months since I had an OR on the wrist. Glad to have it back!


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

cwfmon said:


>


I love it with the regular seconds hand. Did you change it?


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I love it with the regular seconds hand. Did you change it?


Yes I did. My goal was to put a milsub seconds hand but the supplier accidentally sent me this lollipop one. I'm waiting for the replacement and enjoying this in the meantime.

Below is a pic of someone here that put a milsub hand before. I quite like it:


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

cwfmon said:


> Yes I did. My goal was to put a milsub seconds hand but the supplier accidentally sent me this lollipop one. I'm waiting for the replacement and enjoying this in the meantime.
> 
> Below is a pic of someone here that put a milsub hand before. I quite like it:


I like the lollipop better honestly. 
Both look nice though, much better than the red one regardless.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


> I like the lollipop better honestly.
> Both look nice though, much better than the red one regardless.


It's growing on me! I find the red one too distracting.


----------



## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> It's growing on me! I find the red one too distracting.


looks great! Mine says hi:









Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

kovy71 said:


> looks great! Mine says hi:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice. Where'd you source the hand from? Mine is from Raffle Times.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Better balance to the lollipop. Prefer it to the milsub.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Porsche993 said:


> Better balance to the lollipop. Prefer it to the milsub.


Agreed. Either way, it's so much better.


----------



## Toonces (Jan 14, 2017)

That looks fantastic with the white seconds hand.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Toonces said:


> That looks fantastic with the white seconds hand.


Not white. Silver


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Toonces said:


> That looks fantastic with the SILVER seconds hand.


FIFY


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Update: just received the package today with the bezel insert and with something like a gasket, instead of the flat crystal. :-(
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Were you able to solve this issue? I am looking forward to get updates on your mod


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> Were you able to solve this issue? I am looking forward to get updates on your mod


Not yet. Still waiting for an answer from John. Will send a reminder on Tuesday/Wednesday.

Thanks for asking.

Will keep you updated.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Now with milsub sec hand


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> Now with milsub sec hand


I am not sure if I dig the milsub sec hand, but I sure love this crystal.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Not yet. Still waiting for an answer from John. Will send a reminder on Tuesday/Wednesday.
> 
> Thanks for asking.
> 
> Will keep you updated.


UPDATE: John has replied, apologized and told me that they will ship another crystal.

Once I receive it, I will go to the watchmaker to change the stock domed crystal for the new flat one.


----------



## olufemionline (Feb 5, 2018)

For those like me, who are not entirely impressed with Ginault's crystals due to the lack of AR coating, it appears that they are going to be applying AR coating soon. This is according to Prof. who acknowledged that Ginault have sent over their crystals for coating. The wait is almost over. Next, a ceramic bezel and a bracelet logo, and we are pretty much golden.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

^^^ Fully indexed bezel insert and drilled lugs and we are golden!

I honestly don't care too much about ceramic bezel inserts. I think the current Ginault aluminum version is very well done and I actually prefer it over Steinhart's ceramic insert with its too glossy numbers that disappear in bright light.

Ceramic bezel inserts also have the potential of the lume washing out if not properly sealed. It isn't just lower cost watches that suffer from this - I've seen Tudor Pelagos suffer from this as well. 

PS- I agree on the logo clasp. That would also be a nice touch.


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

I like the bezels and crystals the way they are. Aluminum is cheap, easy to swap out, and classic looking. I have a watch with AR inside and out, and it just seems to reflect at different angles than it would otherwise, and changes the color. Plus, if it's on the outside and you scratch it, it sucks. But drilled lugs - I've been mystified from day one why they weren't drilled. Especially as tight as these end links are. A logo would be nice - the Ginault flower would look great.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I would only want AR coating on the underside. Really disliked the streaking with fingerprints and color refractions when double sided, like I had on the Breitling Aerospace.


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> I would only want AR coating on the underside. Really disliked the streaking with fingerprints and color refractions when double sided, like I had on the Breitling Aerospace.


Yeah, I don't get the point of outside AR at all.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

My guess is that Ginault will go with inner AR only. It’s absolutely needed to improve their crystal clarity and will help their well executed dial stand out better. 

I agree that outer AR is unnecessary and impractical for a tool watch. That said, I think having a 2xAR watch in one’s rotation is a real treat! It’s so much fun, but only in spurts, because after a while it does get annoying trying to avoid scratching and frequent wiping of fingerprints/smearing. 

It was a no brainer for me since it costs the same for single or dual AR coating. When the outer coating wears away, I’ll polish it off and be set with just inner. Until then, I’ll enjoy the gimmick!


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Just to make it clear that opinions on this are not unanimous, I want to repeat that I prefer the crystal with no AR.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> Just to make it clear that opinions on this are not unanimous


I'd be shocked if they were.


----------



## Mailer (Jan 17, 2019)

Here is my 181175LSILN









Cu Mailer


----------



## Mailer (Jan 17, 2019)

Here is my 181175LSILN

View attachment 13811295


Cu Mailer


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Mailer said:


> Here is my 181175LSILN
> 
> View attachment 13811295
> 
> ...


Very nice. Where'd you source those hands?


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

olufemionline said:


> Next, a ceramic bezel... and we are pretty much golden.


Eww..


----------



## Mailer (Jan 17, 2019)

Hi, I'm from Germany and translate the text with the Google Translator. I apologize for the grammar. This is the first approach. I bought the hands from a member of the German watch forum. Since I am not yet quite happy with the blue lume of the pointer set, I have ordered a new set of pointers in China, (can stop the link here, if that is allowed) and a member of the German watch forum will then be the pointer to me Replenish the original hands with an adapted lume. Then I have a clock that I like 100%. at the moment I am at 95% &#55357;&#56832;.

I have one too. Review written in the German clock forum, which was unfortunately moved to the advertising forum. If desired, I can also set it here.

Cu Mailer


----------



## alitaher2009 (Apr 11, 2016)

nice one bro


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

I have recently begun a search for a new diver and was not familiar with Ginault until I came across them in comparison to Steinhart. I have now consumed tons of reviews and have been supremely impressed. However, I have a 7.5 inch wrist and have been wearing a 43MM case watch (Momentum Format 4 ana-digi i.e. a poor man's Breitling Aerospace) for the last 4 or 5 years. I am concerned 40MM will just feel/look too small to me now, is there any sense that Ginault will expand their line to include a larger version of the Ocean Rover? Otherwise it looks like a 42MM Steinhart Ocean One will be the best option. 

Thanks!


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I doubt Ginault will be producing different sizes anytime soon (but I have no actual info).

I am the opposite of you, in the sense that I started with small watches (under 38mm, on my 7.25" wrist) and gradually learned to like much bigger watches (my largest is a 45.5mm Boldr Odyssey). Now I wear this full range of sizes and am happy with all. Whatever I am wearing at the moment feels "right". 

You could go to a Rolex dealer and try on a 40mm Sub and see how it feels.


----------



## Mailer (Jan 17, 2019)

I also wear 40mm - 44mm watches on my 18cm wrist. It always depends on the clock, how present that pictures on the arm. The Ginault 40mm dries through the SEL's as well as the 44mm Panerai 111 on the leather strap.

Cu Mailer


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Mailer said:


> "Ginault 40mm dries through the SEL's as well as the 44mm Panerai 111 on the leather strap".
> 
> Cu Mailer


Not sure what you mean, I'm not familiar with SEL's.

FWIW here is a quick wrist shot of my current 43MM Momentum Format 4 Titanium. Not sure how well you can see it in this but the titanium is fairly dark grey and subtle. Both the Ginault and Steinhart would have more presence just because of the brighter stainless steel. Will try to get in to my Rolex dealer soon.

View attachment 13813879


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

If you do try on a Rolex, note that current Subs have noticeably thicker lugs and crown guards than the older version of the Sub case that the Ginault is copying.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Avo said:


> If you do try on a Rolex, note that current Subs have noticeably thicker lugs and crown guards than the older version of the Sub case that the Ginault is copying.


Ok thanks.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes Rolex deviated from perfection when they switched to wider lugs.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I completely agree.

Re trying on a Rolex Sub: may be hard to find one in a store to try on, as they are generally sold out these days and going for well over MSRP …


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Found this on the Ginault Facebook in Asia. Not sure if link will work. It was posted by Ginault so hoping this configuration is available or maybe you have to buy the black bezel and then pay for the green one separately.

Either way the Rolex "Kermit" is maybe my favorite of all time but prices for them are insane.

phttps://m.facebook.com/GinaultTaiwan/


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Bark & Jack reviewed the Ginault Kermit and compared it to the real thing. Check it out.


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I am pretty sure any insert made for 16610 sub will fit the OR bezel


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Bark & Jack reviewed the Ginault Kermit and compared it to the real thing. Check it out.


Thanks, really good to see it head to head like that.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Another little comparative piece with a Rolex Submariner. Nice to see the Ginault glidelock is a perfect fit for the Sub

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=649856


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

jarlaxle said:


> I have recently begun a search for a new diver and was not familiar with Ginault until I came across them in comparison to Steinhart. I have now consumed tons of reviews and have been supremely impressed. However, I have a 7.5 inch wrist and have been wearing a 43MM case watch (Momentum Format 4 ana-digi i.e. a poor man's Breitling Aerospace) for the last 4 or 5 years. I am concerned 40MM will just feel/look too small to me now, is there any sense that Ginault will expand their line to include a larger version of the Ocean Rover? Otherwise it looks like a 42MM Steinhart Ocean One will be the best option.
> 
> Thanks!


My wrist is 7.25 and have both


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

MikeCfromLI said:


> My wrist is 7.25 and have both


Nice looking pair! How do you find the Steinhart and which do you find yourself reaching for more often?


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

jarlaxle said:


> Nice looking pair! How do you find the Steinhart and which do you find yourself reaching for more often?


I find I wear the ginault on its fantastic bracket and the Steinhart has never been on its one as it amazing on a variety of straps in the style of its intended millisub (didn't come with bracelets) so it keeps it different within my collection


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

MikeCfromLI said:


> I find I wear the ginault on its fantastic bracket and the Steinhart has never been on its one as it amazing on a variety of straps in the style of its intended millisub (didn't come with bracelets) so it keeps it different within my collection


Gotcha and makes sense. Variety is the spice of life!

FWIW here is a wrist shot of my 43mm Momentum next to a 20 year old Tag that was a wedding present from my wife. The Tag actually felt fine though definitely on the small side, the 40mm Ginault would split the difference.


----------



## Terry Lennox (Dec 14, 2017)

Any thoughts if Ginault might branch out and do an homage to the DateJust or the 1016 Explorer, or maybe one of the classic Air Kings?


----------



## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

HELP: I'm going to reinstall my bracelet and I'm looking at the spring bars I have and they seem way too thin...does anyone know the thickness of the spring bars? I emailed John...but haven't heard back as of yet...Many thanks!


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> HELP: I'm going to reinstall my bracelet and I'm looking at the spring bars I have and they seem way too thin...does anyone know the thickness of the spring bars? I emailed John...but haven't heard back as of yet...Many thanks!


2mm
You can buy these
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/221619043416


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

John just got back to me...so thanks for the info and the kind link!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> UPDATE: John has replied, apologized and told me that they will ship another crystal.
> 
> Once I receive it, I will go to the watchmaker to change the stock domed crystal for the new flat one.


Update: crystal has arrived. Kudos to John for his support and customer service!

I will go as soon as possible to the watchmaker to replace the crystal.

Do you think it would be worth to regulate the watch once it is in the watchmaker?


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Do you think it would be worth to regulate the watch once it is in the watchmaker?


How is its timekeeping now?

If it was me, I'd leave alone anything from 0 to +10 s/d (for my wear pattern). -5 to 0 or 10 to 15: maybe, depending on cost and my confidence in the watchmaker. Worse than -5 or +15: regulate.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> How is its timekeeping now?
> 
> Worse than -5 or +15: regulate.


Exactly


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Thanks!


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

DuckaDiesel said:


>


How do you think Ginault compared to Monta in terms of fit and finish?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Update: crystal has arrived. Kudos to John for his support and customer service!
> 
> I will go as soon as possible to the watchmaker to replace the crystal.
> 
> Do you think it would be worth to regulate the watch once it is in the watchmaker?


Excellent news. I'm looking forward to seeing the result.

what size (height) gasket did John provide with the flat crystal? And, I can't recall, are you having any other mods done?

Here is mine . . Drilled lugs, maxi merc hands, 2xAR flat crystal, sporting a rubber b type strap with Ginault clasp.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> Excellent news. I'm looking forward to seeing the result.
> 
> what size (height) gasket did John provide with the flat crystal? And, I can't recall, are you having any other mods done?
> 
> ...


where did you buy the Ar crystal?

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> what size (height) gasket did John provide with the flat crystal? And, I can't recall, are you having any other mods done?


If I am not mistaken, there was only the crystal, but I will double check.

No other mods planned yet.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Pneuma said:


> How do you think Ginault compared to Monta in terms of fit and finish?


They are both at the level of the watches costing $3k+.
Quality is superb on both OR and OK. Anyone that says otherwise is full of crap. 
Love them both, OR more though but thats just me.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> If I am not mistaken, there was only the crystal, but I will double check.
> 
> No other mods planned yet.


As promised:









Is this what you meant?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I plan to order my third Ginault OR. I got in touch with John regarding the purchase, but for now, I do not get any feedback. Hope to hear from him soon as I already sold two watches to finance this new purchase for this wished OR.


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

I have been in contact with John in the past few days and I noticed that he only went online after 5 pm Pacific Time and he went off line around 9:30 pm. If you contact him through Facebook messenger during that time, he will usually respond fairly quick.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Pneuma said:


> I have been in contact with John in the past few days and I noticed that he only went online after 5 pm Pacific Time and he went off line around 9:30 pm. If you contact him through Facebook messenger during that time, he will usually respond fairly quick.


Thank you for your feedback. Did you experience that often during that time? Maybe I need to give it a try.


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> As promised:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the one. Did you manage to measure the height of the gasket?


----------



## samuelws1996 (Mar 17, 2017)

Completely useless on a non GMT, but I really dig how it looks X)


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

samuelws1996 said:


> View attachment 13855813
> 
> 
> Completely useless on a non GMT, but I really dig how it looks X)


That's not useless at all - you can still use it for a second time zone. Great idea!


----------



## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

Shizmosis said:


> Thank you for your feedback. Did you experience that often during that time? Maybe I need to give it a try.


John is using the official Ginault Facebook account. I send him messages during the day and he always replied in the evening and we had exchanged messages during that time span a few times. Giving how knowledgeable he was about watchmaking, I had a guess of why he only replied to messages in the evening and I eventually asked him. He admitted that he is a watchmaker and he has to work during the daytime. He also said that Ginault is made of a group of watchmakers and machinists, and they are not really good at marketing and social media.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Pneuma said:


> they are not really good at marketing


au contrare. They did a pretty good job IMO, including on WUS. How many microbrands can you say have had the same exposure.... and controversy. Its a marketing masterclass.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> au contrare. They did a pretty good job IMO, including on WUS. How many microbrands can you say have had the same exposure.... and controversy. Its a marketing masterclass.


The only thing I would add to this is they also made a pretty decent watch. I think their marketing "tactic" (whether planned or accidental) really only worked due to the watch itself being so well made.

This, I believe, was the rub that caused the controversy and made this an almost 4000 post thread. Put those same marketing claims against a less well made watch and we'd have laughed it off the stage. The OR withstood the laughter and, even when disassembled by doubting owners, showed itself to be a solid watch.

When Ginault puts out a full on Mil Sub homage with a fully indexed bezel and drilled lugs, I'll be ready with money in hand. I'll also take a hard look at any upcoming GMT they release, especially if they can make it a bit unique (sword hands, dive bezel, GMT engraved rehaut maybe?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> That's the one. Did you manage to measure the height of the gasket?












Would say it's 3 mm. What do you think?


----------



## thomasmorgan (Dec 27, 2017)

Has anyone had issues with Ginault customer service? My clasp broke and I need to buy a replacement. I emailed John and Facebook messaged them, and it’s been crickets all week. Anyone have a number for them or any other way of getting through to them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Ginault NEEDS an explorer dial 6200 style piece of preorder the second it was announced.

Former doubter


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

thomasmorgan said:


> Has anyone had issues with Ginault customer service? My clasp broke and I need to buy a replacement. I emailed John and Facebook messaged them, and it's been crickets all week. Anyone have a number for them or any other way of getting through to them?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


John has not been so responsive during the last months. I had to insist sending several reminders.

I only contacted him via e-mail.


----------



## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Would say it's 3 mm. What do you think?


Could be . . hard to tell without a vernier / micro digital calliper as the gaskets come in 2.30, 2.35, 2.50, 2.70, 3.00mm

I used a 3.00mm to sit the crystal just right. 2.70 was pretty flush with the bezel insert (like a 6 digit sub) and the 3.00 sits the crystal bevel just above the insert (like a 5 digit sub).


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm also thinking of changing the seconds hand on mine, but to be fair I have two concerns :

1. Where to source high quality hands. Ginault hands are top notch, with perfect polish and that 3D effect that only high end watches have. Most hands I have seen on ebay are just plain flat.

2. The lume. Yeah, that golden sand it's difficult to find, and I would need hands that match the color of the markers. 

That's what keeps me with that red hand, which after a few months still has me unconvinced. Although overall I'm in love with this watch. Can't wear another one for more than 24h as I keep getting this one back all the time!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Me, I love the red second hand. Would not dream of swapping it out. 

YMMV.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Differentiates it from your run of the mill Rolex


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

In my case I like it but being the blue bezel, gold numerals, sand lume, red hand makes it a bit too much colorful. Add the green hue when the lume is fully charged and you have some sort of Christmas tree effect that I'm not fully convinced of, haha.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I fully understand. Its why I opted for the Smurfy version. Just too much color in the other models for my eyes


----------



## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)




----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Belloc said:


> That's not useless at all - you can still use it for a second time zone. Great idea!


May I ask how to use that bezel for a second time zone?


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

lvt said:


> May I ask how to use that bezel for a second time zone?


Well, you could do the math, lol... But yeah, I was thinking of a 12-hour bezel...


----------



## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

Belloc said:


> Well, you could do the math, lol... But yeah, I was thinking of a 12-hour bezel...


A bi-directional 12-hour bezel should be an option for every dive watch!


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> A bi-directional 12-hour bezel should be an option for every dive watch!


Yeah, I don't know why there aren't more of those. Cool dive watch styling with practicality that a lot of people could use at no additional expense.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

lvt said:


> May I ask how to use that bezel for a second time zone?


You take the PIP as the 12. so, if you set the PIP at 9, this would be the new 12. fi the hour hand were at 8, then the "second time zone" would be 11. This is how I have used it.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

has anyone some current experiences with the lead-time for EU orders? (apart from the standard communicated lead-time of 15 - 25 working days from Ginault)

I have placed an order for a date modell. Really looking forward to it


----------



## lxnastynotch93 (Dec 13, 2015)

Since this movement is an ETA clone, has anyone swapped it with an ETA, Sellita SW200, or STP1-11? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it shouldn't be super difficult to swap over the cannon pinion from the "7275" movement to the ETA variant.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

fellows, do you have any experience with ordering Ginault to EU these days?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

ordered the bezel insert and crystal on Dec 19 and received everything on Jan 9. 

The crystal was missing and John acknowledged it on Jan 15. I received it, finally, 2 weeks later.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> fellows, do you have any experience with ordering Ginault to EU these days?


BTEW, dis you get a discount on your order?

I have not found a code on Ginault's website anymore.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> BTEW, dis you get a discount on your order?
> 
> I have not found a code on Ginault's website anymore.


Yes, upon request via E-Mail.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

lxnastynotch93 said:


> Since this movement is an ETA clone, has anyone swapped it with an ETA, Sellita SW200, or STP1-11? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it shouldn't be super difficult to swap over the cannon pinion from the "7275" movement to the ETA variant.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


This one's been swapped for a Swiss ETA 2824-2.


----------



## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

NeedAG said:


> This one's been swapped for a Swiss ETA 2824-2.
> 
> View attachment 13917597


This is like a McDonalds happy meal! Cause I'm lovin' it!


----------



## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

NeedAG said:


> This one's been swapped for a Swiss ETA 2824-2.


Did you buy a ginault just to get their case and bracelet? Looks great by the way.


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

Not entirely, but it's a great case and bracelet! ;-)

On the cannon pinion, here's the OEM movement and dial with the movement ring/dial spacer:









With the spacer removed: Note the large gap between dial and movement.









Normally a dial ring would be there but the Ginault movement ring replaces this and provides added stem height/stand-off distance.  This is why the Ginault H3 pinion doesn't make the hands appear overly high.

A standard H2 pinion doesn't leave enough hand height for applied dial markers in this case.

She's a work in progress... |>|>|>


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Ordered a new Ocean Rover from Ginault on the 5th of February, still waiting for the tracking ID and the shipment.

Very long wait for delivery to the EU atm. The estimated 15 - 25 working days will end next Monday.


----------



## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Looking to pick up a Ginault in the near future and have a couple of quick questions:

1) What is the rough time from order to delivery for US based buyer? I just read the above post about a good wait for EU based buyers. Not sure if that is normal or due to customs and whatnot. 
2) has anyone heard any updates on the supposed GMT that they are working on. I have been looking at some different GMT designs to add to my collection and I would love to see what they could do. If it is relatively close (the next say 3, maybe 4 months) I could probably be patient and wait. If it is longer I would probably just buy the 181070GSLID that I have had my eye on for a while

Otherwise I am excited to be joining the Ginault owners club soon! I have tried to consume all of the Ginault based content I could find, which seems to be a very large amount thanks to their initial discount-for-review deal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> Looking to pick up a Ginault in the near future and have a couple of quick questions:
> 
> 1) What is the rough time from order to delivery for US based buyer? I just read the above post about a good wait for EU based buyers. Not sure if that is normal or due to customs and whatnot.
> 2) has anyone heard any updates on the supposed GMT that they are working on. I have been looking at some different GMT designs to add to my collection and I would love to see what they could do. If it is relatively close (the next say 3, maybe 4 months) I could probably be patient and wait. If it is longer I would probably just buy the 181070GSLID that I have had my eye on for a while
> ...


I guess, that the lead time for US based customers should be significantly shorter than for EU customers (mostly due to customs and longer transport time to the EU).

Did you try to reach out to Ginault via E-Mail? I think John is the best point to answer these questions. Unfordunately, I do not have any information regarding a GMT version.


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## SJFitz (Mar 11, 2019)

Has anybody had both the Ocean-Rover 181270LSILN (date complication no cyclops) and the Ocean-Rover 181175LSILN (cyclops) side by side? What were your opinions. I like both models and have never had a cyclops on a watch before. I tend to not be a very "look at me" type, but this watch sounds excellent. I have read much of this thread, and watched every youtube video I could find. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

NeedAG said:


> Normally a dial ring would be there but the Ginault movement ring replaces this and provides added stem height/stand-off distance.  This is why the Ginault H3 pinion doesn't make the hands appear overly high.


That's interesting and this is the first time I've seen anything in the way of an explanation. I think Ginault spins it as purely the result of having thicker markers. 
Any idea why this approach (no ring, added distance) would be preferable?


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## jzoo (Jul 13, 2015)

NeedAG said:


> Normally a dial ring would be there but the Ginault movement ring replaces this and provides added stem height/stand-off distance.  This is why the Ginault H3 pinion doesn't make the hands appear overly high.
> 
> A standard H2 pinion doesn't leave enough hand height for applied dial markers in this case.
> 
> View attachment 13922423


Any thoughts on whether the stem height on the 2824 with Ginault movement ring matches a 2836 without the Ginault movement ring?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

I need your help, guys.

My ginault order is stuck with Royal Mail in London since Monday. No tracking updates or changes since Monday. The last update I got, was: 

"Your item is due to leave London Central Mail Centre to go to Heathrow Worldwide Distribution Centre. More information will be available as it travels through our network.
Updated on: Monday 11 March
04:36pm
Item Despatched to Heathrow Worldwide Distribution Centre
London Central Mail Centre"

Any thoughts? I am super scared, that the parcel will not reach me in Austria :-(


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I think that you will get the parcel delivered to your door any time.

Having said that, I would try to contact the Royal Mail by phone and ask about your delivery status and so on.

All the best!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Royal Mail may stop tracking once the package leaves the UK.

Have you tried checking on 
https://www.17track.net/en

That's more likely to be comprehensive.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

^^This - nothing I have shipped to me from Britain to Canada is tracked once it departs the UK. I pull my hair out, fret, and it lands on my doorstep...


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Thank you guys for your feedback. 

Still, it is worrying as it did not even reach the Heathrow Distribution Center according to the tracking it has not moved since Monday (not left the UK) - nevertheless, I hope to receive it in the end.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> Royal Mail may stop tracking once the package leaves the UK.


True! I forgot about that.

I use this app for tracking deliveries and it asked me to use another carrier once the package had left the UK:
https://itunes.apple.com/es/app/parcel/id375589283?mt=8

Give it a try.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> True! I forgot about that.
> 
> I use this app for tracking deliveries and it asked me to use another carrier once the package had left the UK:
> https://itunes.apple.com/es/app/parcel/id375589283?mt=8
> ...


I agree that such things can happen. But according to the tracking the parcel has not even reached the distribution center and due to that not left UK yet. Royal Mail shipments are delivered by GLS in Austria. GLS is not recognizing the tracking ID. Thus, it has not reached Austria yet.

:-(


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Did Ginault launch any new models at (or because of) Basel?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Microbrands don't pay much attention to the big-time watch shows …


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> I agree that such things can happen. But according to the tracking the parcel has not even reached the distribution center and due to that not left UK yet. Royal Mail shipments are delivered by GLS in Austria. GLS is not recognizing the tracking ID. Thus, it has not reached Austria yet.
> 
> :-(


Any news on this? Hope you already received your watch.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Any news on this? Hope you already received your watch.


yes, have received it on Wednesday last week - finally


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> yes, have received it on Wednesday last week - finally
> 
> View attachment 14001239


Great! Enjoy it!


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## DMiller (Jun 17, 2018)

On June 24 of last year, after much time spent reading reviews and comments about Ginault watches, I decided to treat myself, take the plunge and order one of their Ocean Rover models, specifically a 180165C1LN. It was ordered and paid for with the understanding that it needed to me made, and would take several weeks to be assembled, calibrated and shipped. No problem, this was the watch I really wanted, they were offering 22% discount at that time, I liked the looks (Rolex Submariner homage) and felt it would be worth the wait. Paying it off over 6 months no interest through PayPay was a bonus as well.

In late July, my watch shipped and after removing a few links from the band, was wearing a fine timepiece. Amazingly accurate for an automatic. According to the Toolwatch app, no more than +-2 seconds a day. Significantly better than any other automatic I have ever owned (Seikos, Hamilton, Egard, etc). The only watch I have ever owned that was anywhere close, was a Citizen EcoDrive. Plus it looked awesome. As I have stated- this is not my first automatic watch. It was never worn in any type of physical activity. Worn primarily on weekends, or for meetings. A dress watch. It never got wet, or had been abused in any way. Babied if anything. It was not stored on a winder, according to the manufacturers instructions, but left to wind down when not in use, and simply shake it a few times to get the movement started.

On September 27, the watch stopped working. Totally dead. There was resistance manually winding it, and the time and date could be set. Shaking, a few winds on the stem, nothing would start the movement working. I shot an email off to the manufacture, explaining what happened, and asked what I should do. I received a very prompt and apologetic reply stating to send it back in and they would have a look at it. Repair time was listed at about 8 weeks. Return shipping was at my expense.

On November 25, I inquired as to the status of my watch, and was told that repairs were on schedule and should be completed within a week.

On December 6, the watch was back in my hands, again keeping amazingly accurate time. That is until December 9, when the movement completed stopped once again. Another email to the manufacturer, stating that I would prefer a different watch or full refund at this time. Very prompt and apologetic replies on a Sunday, telling me a few things to try to get the movement working once again, which Never happened. I was told my warranty would be extended for an additional 2 years, bringing it up to 3, and to send it back for service- repair time 8 weeks. Again, I paid for return shipping.

On March 14 I emailed the company, stating that I really had enough, and that I wanted either a new replacement watch, or a full refund, preferably the refund. The reply came back that the watch was repaired, and would be sent out. A shipping label was created and number sent to me.

On March 21, according to the USPS, the package associated with the shipping number sent to me still had not been received by them. I again emailed Ginault, stating that the watch obviously was not finished as they said, and demand a full refund and immediate refund. I also initiated a dispute with PayPay, who I had used for payment. There was no reply from the manufacturer. That day, the watch showed as shipped, delivery date of Saturday, March 23.

A watch arrived this afternoon, in working order. I am assuming it is the one I sent in, going by a slight mark by the clasp on the band I know was there, but have noticed a slight scratch in the bezel I don’t remember, but could have been present before I returned it. So far, functioning accurately. However, when the watch was returned to me, it came in a simple, plain cardboard box wrapped in bubble wrap. The original leather styled box, along with all of the original paperwork, included nylon band, screwdriver for adding/removing links, and links I had taken out to fit my wrist were not sent back. This is exactly how I shipped the watch the first time for repairs, and everything was returned to me as sent. I have requested that everything be returned to me, but again no reply from the manufacturer.

The PayPal dispute was almost immediately denied, as the filing date was past the 180 day limit placed on disputes. I appealed this decision, stating that the watch had been in the manufacturers possession since December 12 (USPS tracking, signature required) 171 days after my purchase. The dispute is still open, and has yet to be responded to by Ginault.

So now I’m left with what I feel is a lemon of a watch, from a manufacturer I really want nothing else to do with. I could sell, but in good conscience would need to disclose that it has been at the manufacturer for repairs 5 of the 8 months since I initially received it. Also, without the box and everything that came with it, I’ll be taking even a bigger hit.

So Ginault in a nutshell. A super looking watch. Great when it’s working. Customer service that starts off great, but goes downhill. Just my experience. As with anything, YMMV.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

DMiller said:


> On June 24 of last year, after much time spent reading reviews and comments about Ginault watches, I decided to treat myself, take the plunge and order one of their Ocean Rover models, specifically a 180165C1LN. It was ordered and paid for with the understanding that it needed to me made, and would take several weeks to be assembled, calibrated and shipped. No problem, this was the watch I really wanted, they were offering 22% discount at that time, I liked the looks (Rolex Submariner homage) and felt it would be worth the wait. Paying it off over 6 months no interest through PayPay was a bonus as well.
> 
> In late July, my watch shipped and after removing a few links from the band, was wearing a fine timepiece. Amazingly accurate for an automatic. According to the Toolwatch app, no more than +-2 seconds a day. Significantly better than any other automatic I have ever owned (Seikos, Hamilton, Egard, etc). The only watch I have ever owned that was anywhere close, was a Citizen EcoDrive. Plus it looked awesome. As I have stated- this is not my first automatic watch. It was never worn in any type of physical activity. Worn primarily on weekends, or for meetings. A dress watch. It never got wet, or had been abused in any way. Babied if anything. It was not stored on a winder, according to the manufacturers instructions, but left to wind down when not in use, and simply shake it a few times to get the movement started.
> 
> ...


That is really sad to hear. I was very ready to pull the trigger on a Ginault a couple of weeks ago. I had actually sent an email about a discount about 2 weeks ago and never got a response, which is what held me up on it.

I read through this entire thread (and several others) in research for the purchase. About a year ago and earlier it seemed like people were only giving praise for Ginault's customer service. As of the last 6 months or so of posts it seems to have shifted to the opposite. I have now shifted my sites to one of the newly released No-Date Monta Ocean Kings. Your story is making me happy with my decision. Hopefully Ginault (or PayPal) fixes this situation for you and it works out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

The answer to the problem may be to have a watchsmith or jeweler swap out the movement for a genuine eta automatic. Then just move on with it.


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## DMiller (Jun 17, 2018)

Rhorya said:


> The answer to the problem may be to have a watchsmith or jeweler swap out the movement for a genuine eta automatic. Then just move on with it.


If/when it stops again, that's exactly what I plan on doing. Still that's something which should be totally unnecessary at this price point. Back in the day, I've had $25 Timex automatics give better service.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DMiller said:


> On June 24 of last year, after much time spent reading reviews and comments about Ginault watches, I decided to treat myself, take the plunge and order one of their Ocean Rover models, specifically a 180165C1LN. It was ordered and paid for with the understanding that it needed to me made, and would take several weeks to be assembled, calibrated and shipped. No problem, this was the watch I really wanted, they were offering 22% discount at that time, I liked the looks (Rolex Submariner homage) and felt it would be worth the wait. Paying it off over 6 months no interest through PayPay was a bonus as well.
> 
> In late July, my watch shipped and after removing a few links from the band, was wearing a fine timepiece. Amazingly accurate for an automatic. According to the Toolwatch app, no more than +-2 seconds a day. Significantly better than any other automatic I have ever owned (Seikos, Hamilton, Egard, etc). The only watch I have ever owned that was anywhere close, was a Citizen EcoDrive. Plus it looked awesome. As I have stated- this is not my first automatic watch. It was never worn in any type of physical activity. Worn primarily on weekends, or for meetings. A dress watch. It never got wet, or had been abused in any way. Babied if anything. It was not stored on a winder, according to the manufacturers instructions, but left to wind down when not in use, and simply shake it a few times to get the movement started.
> 
> ...


I am sorry to hear that and can understand how frustrated you are. I hope, at this point, you get the refund.

I had very good customer service from Ginault, but in the last months, had to write several e-mails before receiving any answer at all.



DMiller said:


> If/when it stops again, that's exactly what I plan on doing. Still that's something which should be totally unnecessary at this price point. Back in the day, I've had $25 Timex automatics give better service.


That is what I am thinking of doing as well. Keep the Ginault and change the movement if necessary, since I am very pleased with the case, dial, bezel and bracelet.


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Does anybody know where I can pick up a Pepsi bezel insert that will fit this bezel? Specifically colored like seiko does theirs with either a 15/45 or 20/40 color split and not gmt styled color split.

Looking for something like this. (Not my pic)









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Shadowlands (Mar 17, 2019)

DMiller said:


> On June 24 of last year, after much time spent reading reviews and comments about Ginault watches, I decided to treat myself, take the plunge and order one of their Ocean Rover models, specifically a 180165C1LN. It was ordered and paid for with the understanding that it needed to me made, and would take several weeks to be assembled, calibrated and shipped. No problem, this was the watch I really wanted, they were offering 22% discount at that time, I liked the looks (Rolex Submariner homage) and felt it would be worth the wait. Paying it off over 6 months no interest through PayPay was a bonus as well.
> 
> In late July, my watch shipped and after removing a few links from the band, was wearing a fine timepiece. Amazingly accurate for an automatic. According to the Toolwatch app, no more than +-2 seconds a day. Significantly better than any other automatic I have ever owned (Seikos, Hamilton, Egard, etc). The only watch I have ever owned that was anywhere close, was a Citizen EcoDrive. Plus it looked awesome. As I have stated- this is not my first automatic watch. It was never worn in any type of physical activity. Worn primarily on weekends, or for meetings. A dress watch. It never got wet, or had been abused in any way. Babied if anything. It was not stored on a winder, according to the manufacturers instructions, but left to wind down when not in use, and simply shake it a few times to get the movement started.
> 
> ...


Why did you send back the links and original box?


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## DMiller (Jun 17, 2018)

Shadowlands said:


> Why did you send back the links and original box?


I figured that the original box would be the safest way to ship it. I just left everything in it so it would all be together. I did exactly the same thing the first time, but all was returned exactly as I sent it, so I thought everything would come back to me the second time as well.

Still no reply as far as getting the box or anything else back.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DMiller said:


> I figured that the original box would be the safest way to ship it. I just left everything in it so it would all be together. I did exactly the same thing the first time, but all was returned exactly as I sent it, so I thought everything would come back to me the second time as well.
> 
> Still no reply as far as getting the box or anything else back.


Keep on e-mailing them. The last time, I had to do it several times before getting an answer from them. In the end, they did and solved my issue.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Been a bit quiet in here lately so here's another mindless wristie.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Mine says hi!


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## Fozzaru (Nov 30, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## watchgeek96 (Jan 14, 2017)

New owner here, bought a pre-owned of a 2017 model for decent price. Very happy with it so far, fit and finishing is very very good.


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## watchgeek96 (Jan 14, 2017)

New owner here, bought a pre-owned of a 2017 model for decent price. Very happy with it so far, fit and finishing is very very good.


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

Mine says hi too.


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

Does anybody here have the real deal and can do a comparison? I'd be interested in getting one of these to compliment my 16610


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

My new OR says hi too.

I am very curious about the Ginault OR 2, which is rumoured to be released soon. Anyone else heard something about it?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

99watches said:


> Does anybody here have the real deal and can do a comparison? I'd be interested in getting one of these to compliment my 16610


Several comparisons with different Rolex models:




















Have fun!


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Several comparisons with different Rolex models:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool, thanks. Checking out those links now.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> My new OR says hi too.
> 
> I am very curious about the Ginault OR 2, which is rumoured to be released soon. Anyone else heard something about it?
> 
> View attachment 14041733


where do you get the rumour of a new model?

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

DMiller said:


> I figured that the original box would be the safest way to ship it. I just left everything in it so it would all be together. I did exactly the same thing the first time, but all was returned exactly as I sent it, so I thought everything would come back to me the second time as well.
> 
> Still no reply as far as getting the box or anything else back.


I believe the return instruction email specifically said just ship the watch by itself, bubble wrap is well and put it into a small box if I remember correctly.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Dunzdeck said:


> That's interesting and this is the first time I've seen anything in the way of an explanation. I think Ginault spins it as purely the result of having thicker markers.
> Any idea why this approach (no ring, added distance) would be preferable?


Ginault's dial quality is often times the least talked about/covered subject simply because most people don't understand how freaking amazing it is.

1st, the Ocean Rover has one of the most difficult to produce dial, a high-gloss enamel dial. (you can google the production process of this type of dial then you will know why most brands don' want to touch it) You generally don't see this type of dial being used on watches that cost below $5,000 and GS is an exception.

2nd, the Ocean Rover has some of the best, truly remarkable forged applied incides or some call it the hour markers. The size, shape, cut, thickness, finish are all done to Rolex spec. The quality can also rival Rolex's easily. Albeit Rolex uses platinum as the material, the difference in sheen is hard to tell by just looking at it.

So now back to the question why use a thicker hour marker rather than the thin/flush ones seen on other Sub homages? 1 because this is what Rolex does on their modern sports models, thicker hours markers provides better field of depth, a more 3D efffect when you look at the dial 2, thicker indices means deep lume fill which translate to better lume effect and also better pressure resistance but this is one aspect that is also rarely covered since most of these watches would neven be taken to depths that deep anymore.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kovy71 said:


> where do you get the rumour of a new model?
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


I got an email response directly from Ginault in regards to a new ocean rover model that is coming, soon! However, no details were provided in the email in regards to anything of substance.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

drttown said:


> I got an email response directly from Ginault in regards to a new ocean rover model that is coming, soon! However, no details were provided in the email in regards to anything of substance.


Thanks for the insight.

Someone also mentioned, months ago, that Ginault intended to launch a GMT by the end of 2018.

I am curious to see what they are developing.


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## Ninjabathy (Feb 6, 2019)

Dear all,

I'm new here and have posted a comparative review of my Ginault Ocean Rover 181175LSILN with a Rolex Explorer, Longines Hydroconquest, and Steinhart Ocean Vintage Red (new) over in the reviews forum. I'd post a link, but I don't have a high enough post count, yet!

I hope it's a good read, and it reflects my thoughts on the watch, buying process, and issues I've had. I've posted a few reasonable (IMO) pics, but if you'd like more, or any from specific angles, or side-by-sides, just comment on my thread, and I'll be happy to oblige.

Take care, everyone.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

drttown said:


> I got an email response directly from Ginault in regards to a new ocean rover model that is coming, soon! However, no details were provided in the email in regards to anything of substance.


Thanks! I just got an email reply from John as well. And he has put me on the pre-order notification list.

In the email, he mentioned they plan to open the pre-order in a month or so, delivery is estimated to be end of Q3 beginning of Q4. Anyone who is interested can email them to request to be put on the notification list.

I am very excited to see what they can do to a watch that is already as good as it is.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

drttown said:


> I got an email response directly from Ginault in regards to a new ocean rover model that is coming, soon! However, no details were provided in the email in regards to anything of substance.


Thanks! I just got an email reply from John as well. And he has put me on the pre-order notification list.

In the email, he mentioned they plan to open the pre-order in a month or so, delivery is estimated to be end of Q3 beginning of Q4. Anyone who is interested can email them to request to be put on the notification list.

I am very excited to see what they can do to a watch that is already as good as it is.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Does the 185066 has smaller hands than the other models ?


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

Just received the 181175LSILN, I'm extremely happy with this purchase, craftsmanship is definitely on par for the price. It is very comfortable on my 7.5" wrist for those who are curious.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

jprangley said:


> Just received the 181175LSILN, I'm extremely happy with this purchase, craftsmanship is definitely on par for the price. It is very comfortable on my 7.5" wrist for those who are curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Congrats!


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> Thanks! I just got an email reply from John as well. And he has put me on the pre-order notification list.
> 
> In the email, he mentioned they plan to open the pre-order in a month or so, delivery is estimated to be end of Q3 beginning of Q4. Anyone who is interested can email them to request to be put on the notification list.
> 
> I am very excited to see what they can do to a watch that is already as good as it is.


I hope for an accurate 16710 hommage, would order it immediately!

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Ninjabathy said:


> I'm new here and have posted a comparative review of my Ginault Ocean Rover 181175LSILN with a Rolex Explorer, Longines Hydroconquest, and Steinhart Ocean Vintage Red (new) over in the reviews forum. I'd post a link, but I don't have a high enough post count, yet!


But I do! And here is your review:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181175lsiln-comparative-review-4930475.html


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Here is another review, done by a new member. comparing the Rover to his Rolex and Omega. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-rover-181875gslid-review-4931557.html#post48646503


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

kovy71 said:


> I hope for an accurate 16710 hommage, would order it immediately!
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


I'd go bananas if they do that and will buy 2 one pepsi one code and one black, wait that's 3! lol, doesn't even have to be accurate, I like the fact they added their own flavors to the Ocean Rover.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Well...this is my 3rd Ginault...two no dates and now this one...all Smurfs...and honestly...the fact that I keep buying them is my endorsement. I've owned several pieces in the 3-4x price of the Ginault list price....I actually owned a 5 digit Sub (bought new)...and while it was several years back...I can't look at the Ginault and say its any less of a watch...I really enjoy the Ginault...I'm going to try and hold onto this one for a while..but as of late, I've been eyeing the blue w/gold lume....but then again...nothing says I can't have both....feel sorry for my other watches as they'll now be relaxing in the watch box until further notice.....


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

LARufCTR said:


> Well...this is my 3rd Ginault...two no dates and now this one...all Smurfs...and honestly...the fact that I keep buying them is my endorsement. I've owned several pieces in the 3-4x price of the Ginault list price....I actually owned a 5 digit Sub (bought new)...and while it was several years back...I can't look at the Ginault and say its any less of a watch...I really enjoy the Ginault...I'm going to try and hold onto this one for a while..but as of late, I've been eyeing the blue w/gold lume....but then again...nothing says I can't have both....feel sorry for my other watches as they'll now be relaxing in the watch box until further notice.....


Quite nice, that is the exact model that I have been looking for(the black bezel with the cyclops/date and smurf lume); missed out on one on reddit by a few minutes. I have that same version with the blue dial and sand lume with the cyclops and date.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

drttown said:


> Quite nice, that is the exact model that I have been looking for(the black bezel with the cyclops/date and smurf lume); missed out on one on reddit by a few minutes. I have that same version with the blue dial and sand lume with the cyclops and date.


You have great taste...you must be my long lost twin...LOL


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## DMiller (Jun 17, 2018)

DMiller said:


> On June 24 of last year, after much time spent reading reviews and comments about Ginault watches, I decided to treat myself, take the plunge and order one of their Ocean Rover models, specifically a 180165C1LN. It was ordered and paid for with the understanding that it needed to me made, and would take several weeks to be assembled, calibrated and shipped. No problem, this was the watch I really wanted, they were offering 22% discount at that time, I liked the looks (Rolex Submariner homage) and felt it would be worth the wait. Paying it off over 6 months no interest through PayPay was a bonus as well.
> 
> In late July, my watch shipped and after removing a few links from the band, was wearing a fine timepiece. Amazingly accurate for an automatic. According to the Toolwatch app, no more than +-2 seconds a day. Significantly better than any other automatic I have ever owned (Seikos, Hamilton, Egard, etc). The only watch I have ever owned that was anywhere close, was a Citizen EcoDrive. Plus it looked awesome. As I have stated- this is not my first automatic watch. It was never worn in any type of physical activity. Worn primarily on weekends, or for meetings. A dress watch. It never got wet, or had been abused in any way. Babied if anything. It was not stored on a winder, according to the manufacturers instructions, but left to wind down when not in use, and simply shake it a few times to get the movement started.
> 
> ...


Just an update on this. Since receiving my watch back, it has been functioning properly, and has been keeping amazingly accurate time. Using the Toolwatch app, averaging no more than +- 4 seconds. It is noticeably more accurate while I'm wearing it, 2 seconds and under.

The original box, and all of its contents were located by John at Ginault, and returned to me. I do appreciate his efforts to find the box and send it back.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DMiller said:


> Just an update on this. Since receiving my watch back, it has been functioning properly, and has been keeping amazingly accurate time. Using the Toolwatch app, averaging no more than +- 4 seconds. It is noticeably more accurate while I'm wearing it, 2 seconds and under.
> 
> The original box, and all of its contents were located by John at Ginault, and returned to me. I do appreciate his efforts to find the box and send it back.


Good to hear that!

Hope it keeps ticking like that and you continue enjoying it!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

There's been a few issues noted in here since the release but as far as I remember most if not all have been sorted to the satisfaction of the owners.

I've owned the two, the original sandlume no-date and this one and I have had no issues and am still loving my OR and looking forward to the upcoming OR2.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes curious what the bring out as the OR2. Hope something akin to Silent Service mk2 ie major departure from current models and more an in-house design


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## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

Just a quick iPhone picture.

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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Yes curious what the bring out as the OR2. Hope something akin to Silent Service mk2 ie major departure from current models and more an in-house design


I have seen concept pictures of the Silent Service Mk II and loved that design. But I kinda hope for the opposite. We have so many options for Submariner inspired divers/homages on the market already but nothing like what Ginault's Ocean Rover is offering.

I wish they maintain their Ocean Rover line with the same design philosophy/concept but do some upgrades, for example although I love the warmth and classic look of the aluminum insert, I personal would also like a version with ceramic insert as well. Then on top of that, they should come out with their own diver design like the Silent Service Mk II with a seperate product line.


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

When I chatted with John awhile ago, I was told that they planned to put a Sellita movement in Ocean Rover. I don't know if they are still working on it or not, but it sounds like a no-brainier.


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## Dunzdeck (Aug 13, 2014)

_Niet slecht_ for an Iphone picture! Sorry to veer OT here, did you use any filters for this? Or just a steady hand?

Back on T: I still own and love my OR. The thought occasionally comes to sell it for a BB58... and the thought goes.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Pneuma said:


> When I chatted with John awhile ago, I was told that they planned to put a Sellita movement in Ocean Rover. I don't know if they are still working on it or not, but it sounds like a no-brainier.


Yeah I agree. I don't own a Ginault yet <sadly, still looking for one!>... But the few main overall complaints people seemed to have was related to movement concerns. Either a Sellita or ETA 2824 would be great - no concerns for my other watches that utilize them. 

Josh

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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I have no concerns with the Ginault movement. Mine is more accurate than my two 2824's and my one STP1-11. And I had multiple problems with one of my 2824's that ulitimately had to be replaced under warranty. Small sample size of course, but I've seen no reliable statistics that would make me doubt the quality of the Ginault movement.


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## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

Dunzdeck said:


> _Niet slecht_ for an Iphone picture! Sorry to veer OT here, did you use any filters for this? Or just a steady hand?
> 
> Back on T: I still own and love my OR. The thought occasionally comes to sell it for a BB58... and the thought goes.


Based on the 'niet slecht' I believe that you are referring to my iPhone picture. I only used a Black & White filter and a steady hand 

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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

jzoo said:


> Any thoughts on whether the stem height on the 2824 with Ginault movement ring matches a 2836 without the Ginault movement ring?


Sorry it's taken so long to measure this... :roll:

The Ginault spacer adds 0.6mm of standoff/stem height. Added to the 1.8mm stem height of the 2824-2 makes 2.6mm total stem height.

You'd need to add a little thickness (.2mm) to a stock 2836-2 dial spacer to fit without stressing the stem etc (2836-2 is 2.4mm SH). :think:

Next iteration of mine will use a Swiss movement with H4 pinions :-d


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Avo said:


> I have no concerns with the Ginault movement. Mine is more accurate than my two 2824's and my one STP1-11. And I had multiple problems with one of my 2824's that ulitimately had to be replaced under warranty. Small sample size of course, but I've seen no reliable statistics that would make me doubt the quality of the Ginault movement.


I'm on my 3rd OR and I agree...these have been among the most accurate watches I've owned....totally w/i COSC. That said, I feel that my last OR had a smoother sweep seconds hand than my current date model...but maybe I'm imagining it...but I can say the second hand sweep is way smoother than any version of ETA I've ever owned...almost appears "High Beat" quality....and very Rolex-like...so no issues here and happy owner 3x....

As far as a new OR2....I'm guessing for the sake of tooling costs they will use what they have...so wondering if we will see a GMT or an updated OR (ceramic maybe?)...I personally would love an Explorer 214270....


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Does anyone know when the new model will be announced?

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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kovy71 said:


> Does anyone know when the new model will be announced?
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


No info, yet. Most of us are on the email/wait list through Ginault. I suppose we will all know at about the same time, once the emails start coming from Ginault!


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

Long time since I last checked on ginault. Was very happy for the last months with my helson Shark diver.

Any rumors going around what the v2 will be?

Well a classic sub with a ceramic insert would be neat. 

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## Terry Lennox (Dec 14, 2017)

I too am curious what else Ginault can come up with. A classic 1016 Explorer homage would get everyone's attention.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm sorry to disappoint, but in John's words: "A GMT homage of the Rolex GMT Master II is definitely on our road map. We are probably looking at 2021 (estimate)". So no GMT this time...


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm sorry to disappoint, but in John's words: "A GMT homage of the Rolex GMT Master II is definitely on our road map. We are probably looking at 2021 (estimate)". So no GMT this time...


that quote is quite old isn't it? Plans may change...

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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Well it's as old as 3rd of April 2019 as it's what he replied to me on an email when I asked about the OR2... It depends what you call old, lol.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

mrmorfo said:


> Well it's as old as 3rd of April 2019 as it's what he replied to me on an email when I asked about the OR2... It depends what you call old, lol.


Any sense if it's another overt homage or will it be more of an original design.

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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

Can't wait for their release... I will have to choose between the or2 and a Oris aquis 39...

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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

jarlaxle said:


> mrmorfo said:
> 
> 
> > Well it's as old as 3rd of April 2019 as it's what he replied to me on an email when I asked about the OR2... It depends what you call old, lol.
> ...


No idea, that's the only line I got from him about it, unfortunately.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Come to think, I'm betting on a Yachtmaster-inspired watch. That red seconds hand...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Long time no pics...










TGIF.

Have a great weekend!


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I was thinking the same thing.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Yeah TGIF ... too bad I'm working in the ER all weekend. Sometimes I wish the emergency department closed after hours lol. At least the Ginault will be with me.










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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Any news regarding the OR2 since it's already May?


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## michael0703 (Nov 8, 2017)

acheongtk said:


> Any news regarding the OR2 since it's already May?


I got an email yesterday saying in a week or two

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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Classic Ocean Rover Prototype on the wrist....










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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

jerseydan31 said:


> Classic Ocean Rover Prototype on the wrist....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still nice!


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## Knoc (Feb 10, 2012)

Im curious to see what this gen2 is about.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

jerseydan31 said:


> Classic Ocean Rover Prototype on the wrist....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that with a ceramic bezel instead? Or still aluminum? Thanks.

Josh

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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

jhinson1 said:


> Is that with a ceramic bezel instead? Or still aluminum? Thanks.
> 
> Josh
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Hello Josh,

it's aluminum. In my opinion it's better then the other OR bezel inserts (I've had the GSLID and a few more).

The color is perfect (not too shiny and has a slight matte sheen).

Take care!

JD31


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Just got mail


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

I dont have anything in my mail. And? is it interesting?


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Someone post the rendering please


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Yep me too, nothing yet


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Here is what was posted on Facebook by someone who got the email today.









From Ginault.........

We are happy to present you the details and specs of the Ocean Rover II.

Delivery is scheduled to begin at the end of Q3 (estimate) in the order it was received.

Attached is an illustration of the Ocean Rover II. Pictures of the actual prototype will follow in the months to come. Two things to note, all the no-date variants are now equipped with flat crystals (with AR). Domed crystal (no AR) can be installed upon request. All date variants have a flat crystal (AR) with a 2.5x magnifier over the date windows. Non-Cyclops crystal (flat or domed) can be installed upon request.

Appearance-wise, it remains 95% identical to the first generation. However, the second generation Rovers have gone through major internal upgrades. I highlighted the changes/upgrades in bold. 
40mm pre-ceramic style case, chamfered lugs, no holes 
high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices 
beveled sword hour/minute hands, custom Ginault red-second hand 
Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated 
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min fully graduated, lume pip at 12 o'clock
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned with a new Quattro-Coil support system for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is re-profiled with deeper, sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple layer optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist. 
In terms of pricing, the retail price for Ocean Rover II no-date version will be $1,499, and $1,699 for the date with cyclops version.

Phase 1 of the pre-order (500 units, strict limit), customers will enjoy a special $200 instant cash discount, meaning it will just be $1,299, and $1,499 for the no-date and date with cyclops variants respectively. On top of that, we will do an additional 20% off for our customers!

Phase 2, prices will go back to the regular retail price of $1,499 and $1,699 plus a 25% discount.

Right now, phase 1 of the pre-order will be by invite only. We want to give our loyal customers who have supported the brand and our vision highest priority.

A pre-order may be canceled and refunded in full before July 20th.

You are cordially invited to join phase 1 of the pre-order via the links below.
Ocean Rover II No-Date 
Ocean Rover II Date


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Is that 20% discount for everyone, or just past customers? 

I was about 2 weeks away from pulling the trigger on a no date Monta Ocean King, but this might change things. Now the real question, which no date, red second hand, sword hands, ceramic bezel, 300m dive watch with on the fly bracelet adjustments should I get...


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## boatswain (Sep 4, 2014)

Well well.

That changes two things that made me hesitant with the original version.

I like the ceramic insert over aluminum

And switch to Selitta movement.

I LOVE a good milsub.

Not sure I will do a preorder without seeing the finished product, especially with changes, though sounds like for the most part people are quite happy with the quality.

Looking forward to seeing how these turn out!

If I was to choose I think I would be going no date black. The blue bezel could be fun, Depends on if the ceramic is the dark or lighter blue tone it comes in.

Happy ordering to the early adopters


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

any idea when preorders will open?

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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Pre-order is already open for the invited people.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Was really hoping the dial text would be reduced. Oh well..


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> Pre-order is already open for the invited people.


i got the mail now but I am not sure which model to choose... The blue could be nice but hard to tell with the renders.

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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

92gli said:


> Was really hoping the dial text would be reduced. Oh well..


Yeah i was hoping on USA MADE instead of hand build in america.
And 3 lines max would look better.



kovy71 said:


> DutchElite said:
> 
> 
> > Pre-order is already open for the invited people.
> ...


Yeah i need to see the blue on a real pic first.
Also doubting on blue or black.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I'm hoping the ceramic bezels will be purchasable separately somewhere down the line.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Agreed on everyone's comments. I'd like to see real world photos of the blue bezel before committing... But all things considered, seems like a great offering at a pretty good price. 

Always good to support an American company as well. 

Josh

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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

kovy71 said:


> i got the mail now but I am not sure which model to choose... The blue could be nice but hard to tell with the renders.
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


John said the blue will be a darker blue kind of like what they did with the aluminum insert. Pictures of the prototypes will come in a month or so.

I am going to place my pre-order soon and secure a spot first. John said we can make changes to the pre-order later. You can also cancel the pre-order and get a full refund on/before July 20th, so why not?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Any idea if the bezel inserts will be matt or gloss?


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

kovy71 said:


> i got the mail now but I am not sure which model to choose... The blue could be nice but hard to tell with the renders.
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


What's the process for being invited? I've purchased 2 directly from Ginault in the past and didn't receive an invite.

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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

trf2271 said:


> What's the process for being invited? I've purchased 2 directly from Ginault in the past and didn't receive an invite.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try emailing John and ask him about it, oh you've already done it lol


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

I am pretty unsure to whether pre order or not ... i was really hoping to see pictures of a real prototype ...but then again, a ceramic sub in the old case with a full 60 minute marking? That was always pretty much my dream sub ... hhmmm...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Tbh I'm undecided. I find 60 minute markers too busy, and I'm not sure how the ceramic bezel will play out with a non-maxi case. The 116610 insert is wider than the aluminium ones, is this one wider too? It looks literally the same as the aluminium.

A photo of a prototype would have helped a lot (well, helped everyone except my bank account, ha!)


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

So I asked a couple of questions to John McMurty over at Ginault and got a very quick response. 

1) he confirmed that the blue will be blue and silver, not the blue and gold of the previous generation
2) he said the ceramic will be glossy, similar to the current Rolex Sub
3) I asked if the prototype pictures would surface before phase 1 was over. He said phase 1 will end once they hit the 500 orders, so it all depends on how fast it sells. He said they have already gotten 80 orders in the first 24 hours 


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Aluminum insert OR uses is superb. I would still take that over ceramic. This is going to be a heck of a watch with Sellita regardless. Movement origin and durability(even though no one reported issues) was the only “weak”spot.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Should order with Selitta or their own Ginault movement ?


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

kovy71 said:


> i got the mail now but I am not sure which model to choose... The blue could be nice but hard to tell with the renders.
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


I was having the same dilemma. But according to John, they'll keep the blue as close as the aluminium version which is great because the dark blue is really working for me. Anyway they could change the bezel after their prototype images are out so I've got mine!


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

acheongtk said:


> I was having the same dilemma. But according to John, they'll keep the blue as close as the aluminium version which is great because the dark blue is really working for me. Anyway they could change the bezel after their prototype images are out so I've got mine!


Are you getting the SW200 movement or Ginault's own?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm not sure if I'm going to get one of the new ones yet (if the bezel markings had been uniform, instead of longer in the first 15, I would definitely be in), but if I do, I will get the Ginault movement. The one in my first-edition OR has been an excellent performer, and I expect that they will get more TLC from Ginault than the Sellitas. The Selitta can be found in a zillion watches, I'd rather have something different if the quality is there (and in my experience it is). 

Ginault's fit-and-finish of case, dial, lume, etc, is second to none in this price range (as confirmed by dozens if not hundreds of reviews, including side-by-side comparisons with Rolex). Why do people not believe that Ginault is capable of similar quality in their movement?


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Avo said:


> Why do people not believe that Ginault is capable of similar quality in their movement?


Am I the only one that sees this new option with skepticism? If their movement is proven why offer a different movement at the same price?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

92gli said:


> Am I the only one that sees this new option with skepticism? If their movement is proven why offer a different movement at the same price?


Have to agree. Begs the question if there are long term weaknesses in the design.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

92gli said:


> Am I the only one that sees this new option with skepticism? If their movement is proven why offer a different movement at the same price?


I think this is a possibility. The other possibility is that literally every single review called their 2824 clone a "question mark" and thus was listed as a fault/unknown in the watch. Most reviews said that a movement that is more of a known factor would help to sooth those with doubt about the movement. Now they give the option for either their movement, or a Sellita. I see no downside to having more options

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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

I think they offer the new movement now because 1. It was the wish of many people to have at least a basic Swiss movement and secondly I think they want to attract more people to the watch.

1700 dollars is a *hell* lot of money for what is essentially a microbrand watch, which is basically a submariner for people who can't / don't want to buy a Rolex(most of us tbh, nothing wrong with it, a sub is so expensive nowadays) . And I think many people want at least something basic with reputation in terms of movement.

Don't get me wrong here. I owned a genuine 16610LN, in my eyes the ginault is not far off quality wise(except the movement of course, you can't even compare a eta 2824 to the 3135). And I owned 3 ginault over time. Love this watch. At this moment I don't own a ginault, my primary watch is a lovely 39mm Oris aquis. The Oris has the same movement the ocean rover 2 will have.

I can't decide if I want to go with the unique design of the aquis or if I want to return to the classic submariner style. I would have to change the hands again... Don't like the red second...

My time of having a big watch collection is over... I want one primary watch, and 1 or 2 watches of another kind to change...

Aquis or ocean rover... I have to choose

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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

badgerracer said:


> I think this is a possibility. The other possibility is that literally every single review called their 2824 clone a "question mark" and thus was listed as a fault/unknown in the watch. Most reviews said that a movement that is more of a known factor would help to sooth those with doubt about the movement. Now they give the option for either their movement, or a Sellita. I see no downside to having more options
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree. I see it as an upside. I myself wished for a Swiss movement. Now it is here, which is nice.

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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

badgerracer said:


> literally every single review called their 2824 clone a "question mark" and thus was listed as a fault/unknown in the watch. Most reviews said that a movement that is more of a known factor would help to sooth those with doubt about the movement.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, this.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Belloc said:


> Yeah, this.


But how the Ginault 7275 movement performed, good or bad, have any issues been reported ?


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

I jumped in late but the blue/gold is great and the watch is so nicely done not into the v2 but who knows when I see it if that had a 6200 style explorer dial sub or a gmt my wallet would be in serious peril


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

marinemaster said:


> But how the Ginault 7275 movement performed, good or bad, have any issues been reported ?


I don't have any statistics, but my impression was that complaints were on par with pretty much any other brand's thread that I've followed, with probably better time keeping accuracy than most run of the mill Swiss movements. Certainly no trail of catastrophic failures. That's just an impression, though.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I had two ORs and there were no issues and timekeeping was very accurate. 
This was the only criticism other than the homage part so they simply listened to feedback and are now offering swiss movement.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

GT1-Reach said:


> I think they offer the new movement now because 1. It was the wish of many people to have at least a basic Swiss movement and secondly I think they want to attract more people to the watch.
> 
> 1700 dollars is a *hell* lot of money for what is essentially a microbrand watch, which is basically a submariner for people who can't / don't want to buy a Rolex(most of us tbh, nothing wrong with it, a sub is so expensive nowadays) . And I think many people want at least something basic with reputation in terms of movement.
> 
> ...


I am in the same spot, currently own the classic smurf ginault with modded secons hand and I am not sure if the OR 2 will be worth it as an upgrade...

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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

qiao.feng said:


> acheongtk said:
> 
> 
> > I was having the same dilemma. But according to John, they'll keep the blue as close as the aluminium version which is great because the dark blue is really working for me. Anyway they could change the bezel after their prototype images are out so I've got mine!
> ...


Im probably getting the SW200. Not that I hear anything bad about their movement but it's just a default movement they are giving for the OR2 which I don't mind at all. I'm sure the same attention of regulating their own movement would be given to the SW200 so why not since Sellita movements are proven workhorse.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I really like the new fully indexed bezel. This further aligns it with the 5517 mil-sub than just another standard sub homage. 

I also really appreciate the way Ginault is doing business. Their offering of a pre-order with a fairly substantial discount for previous customers is a classy move in a world of kickstarter micros.

That all said, even with the discounts the new models are up around $1K. I can't help but remind myself that this price point is Squale 50 ATMOS territory (on Squale mesh) as I recently purchased one. It gives me a little cause for pause.

I still like my original OR quite a bit, and as much as I like these new upgrades, I find myself leaning towards saving my $ for the future GMT.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Wait there is a GMT coming?
A real gmt (as in: jumping hour hand, not the useless ETA style gmt)?

John makes fantastic watches, I can’t wait for a new model.


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

The Ginault 7275 movement is equally or better than my Tag and other brands and the craftsmanship with the aluminum is outstanding. I completely suggest to not overlook the movement quality.









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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> I really like the new fully indexed bezel. This further aligns it with the 5517 mil-sub than just another standard sub homage.
> 
> I also really appreciate the way Ginault is doing business. Their offering of a pre-order with a fairly substantial discount for previous customers is a classy move in a world of kickstarter micros.
> 
> ...


Yeah I'm wrestling with it as well, I love the idea of the ceramic insert but I'm not sure there is enough difference from my current much loved OR to justify the spend so I may have to wait for one to be revealed in the flesh before jumping in.............................BUT I may not have the patience to wait.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

The mods in the ORII do nothing for me. I would have been interested in a domed crystal with internal AR coating. I'm not a fan of ceramic bezels especially on a vintage inspired Rolex homage. There is nothing wrong with the Ginault movement from my perspective so no reason to be concerned about a Sellita option. 

I'm waiting for a more radical departure in design to get some interest for another Ginault, especially at the prices now asked.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

59er said:


> Yeah I'm wrestling with it as well, I love the idea of the ceramic insert but I'm not sure there is enough difference from my current much loved OR to justify the spend so I may have to wait for one to be revealed in the flesh before jumping in.............................BUT I may not have the patience to wait.


I was in the same boat. But Ginault's pre-order rules are pretty much Costco or Amazon like. You can always purchase first to secure a spot in phase1, and if you don't like it you can cancel and get a full refund on/before July 20th.

History has taught us they always offer the best deal during the initial launch period, and price went up as they said it would. We have all witnessed that with their ORI. Those who held out and believe the 50% days would return only ended up crying.

John said actual pictures of the prototypes will come out in a month or so which still leave us plenty of time to decide before the cancellation deadline.

And I think the OR II is gonna look amazing. Ginault knows what they are doing; they have proven that with their OR I. They know the true meaning of what a homage means and how it should be.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Im sure it will be, the improvements alone are worth the price.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> The mods in the ORII do nothing for me. I would have been interested in a domed crystal with internal AR coating. I'm not a fan of ceramic bezels especially on a vintage inspired Rolex homage. There is nothing wrong with the Ginault movement from my perspective so no reason to be concerned about a Sellita option.
> 
> I'm waiting for a more radical departure in design to get some interest for another Ginault, especially at the prices now asked.


Got this email from John today. It's a Q&A they made based on the most asked questions since they announced the Ocean Rover II. I think this is really good stuff.

*Q*: Why the move to a Swiss movement? Isn't the CAL7275 your calling card?
*A*: The move to SW200-1 is a business decision. Machining and assembling a CAL7275 takes long hours. For the past two years, we almost outgrew our production capability. Using SW200-1 helps us solve this bottleneck issue and helps us deal with current/future demand increase. Also since 99% of the members want a Swiss movement instead our own, we figured why not? Give the people what they want.

*Q*: I really like the idea of the blue ceramic insert but I can't tell much from the render. Is it matte or glossy? What if I changed my mind after seeing photos of the actual watch? 
*A*: The ceramic texture is going to be similar to the modern 6-digit Submariner. We will try to make the blue a darker blue like what you see on our blue aluminum iteration. And you are welcome to make changes to your pre-order after seeing photos of the actual prototypes.

*Q*: What color is the date wheel for the gold sand variant? 
*A*: It will be the same beige background with black fonts to match the gold sand lume color; same as what we did for the 181875.

*Q*: Will it be possible to send in our current models for a ceramic insert? That would be AWESOME/EXCELLENT!
*A*: In order to mount our ceramic insert you will need the gen II bezel assembly. And to support the gen II bezel assembly you will need a gen II case. Just the parts alone will cost over $700.

*Q*: Why the ORII? With your production capability why not a whole new design? Feel like just an expensive facelift.
*A*: Some may think OR II is just some marketing gimmick with marginal spec upgrade to a ceramic insert. But that is really not the case. Under its unassuming look, the OR II is packed with heavy technical and production innovation. Basically, we took this iconic pre-ceramic case/bezel design (which many favor over the new maxi case) and figured out how to modernized the inside while faithfully allowing the outside to remain untouched. It is really "more than meets the eye"

*Q*: The spec and everything sounds good but my biggest concern is that there are no real pictures of the pieces at the moment. When can we see actual pictures of the ORII?
*A*: We understand but that shouldn't need to be a concern. ORII will stay 95% identical (visually) to the OR I with the only major exception of the ceramic insert. That said, we should have more updates and pictures of the actual prototypes in a month or so. Be sure to follow us on Instagram. We will do sneak peeks and update photos of the OR II parts/prototypes on there. If you have not followed us be sure to do so.

*Q*: John, I really want to secure a spot during phase1 but I don't have the full amount. Can I make a deposit first? 
*A*: Yes you can. The original goal was to make the pre-order process as easy and as simple as possible for both parties. But we understand some may not have the funds upfront. If this is something that works better for you send us an email, and we can set it up for you.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Personally speaking the ORII only makes sense if I don't own a OR1 and wanted the ceramic bezel and Sellita moment option. There is not enough difference to own both. Had it been a GMT then that would have been a game changer.

I highly doubt 99% want a Swiss movement (most of the components are made in China anyway). I'm extremely happy with my cal7275. Lot of marketing spin in those Q&A's


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

The Ginault movement has performed great for me, but given the choice I’d prefer a mass produced, ideally regulated movement 

Personally I see the ceramic bezel as a minus, I’ve always preferred the old school look of aluminum


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Some interesting info from a post on the "Ginault vs Monta" thread:


NVWolfpack said:


> I have been wearing the OR for over a year now and been very hard on it, and it continues to impress me. I flip most ofnthe watches I buy because I get bored and start listing after something else, but I have already kept the OR longer than most and dont foresee selling it ever, or at least anytime soon.
> 
> I did a lot of research on the OR before pulling the trigger and the mystery kind of drew me in even more. I found a detailed tear down post that was picture heavy, comparing each component of the movement and case to a TC sub, several other known Asian movements, and an ETA, and the OR was clearly distinct from all of the rest, part by part. Mine is still keeping cosc time and I find myself staring at it more often as time goes by, which is very rare for me. I usually get enamored with a watch quickly, wear it a lot, And then lose interest, but the OR almost gets better with age.


https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-vs-monta-help-me-decide-4953817-4.html#post48958583


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Avo said:


> Some interesting info from a post on the "Ginault vs Monta" thread:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/ginault-vs-monta-help-me-decide-4953817-4.html#post48958583


Very interesting. Unfortunately, I have not seen the link for the comparison, but would love to.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Very interesting. Unfortunately, I have not seen the link for the comparison, but would love to.


I have read something like that long ago when Ginault first launched the Ocean Rover and caused a big debate. A modder/refinisher on the rep forum compared Ginault vs TC midcase, bezel assembly and said the CNC process and finishing process were distinct (in the eyes of an expert)

On the same note, Ginault recently updated their IG page (finally) and showed a picture of their case production thought this is worth noting.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I am officially in for the pre-order! Currently on for a black bezel with Gold Sand Lume, but that may change when I see pre-production pictures


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## shakespeared (Apr 9, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I am officially in for the pre-order! Currently on for a black bezel with Gold Sand Lume, but that may change when I see pre-production pictures
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I made the same choice as you. Mine is without a date. It will be interesting to see the previews and photos of prototypes. I am intrigued.

Shakespeared


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Ginault now has 5 Instagram posts in the last 10 days. I am excited that they are being more active on social media and being more transparent in their manufacturing process (or at least have one post so far about it). I get their whole “we are craftsmen not PR people” but when in doubt seeing a brand be more engaged and open is a plus in my book 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

My bezel seems to be turned quite easy, even without wanting to do so. Is it possible to make it harder?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> My bezel seems to be turned quite easy, even without wanting to do so. Is it possible to make it harder?


I found that the bezel washer gets worn, becomes thinner and out of shape after a number of times removing and re installing the bezel. (modifying with a crystal swap and realigning the bezel insert to be spot on!)

So I bought a bezel washer and click spring from cousinsuk. (replacement parts fro Rolex 16610) I used the new washer but kept the old click spring; with the new click spring it was too tight.

Parts are cheap and easy to change. Result is better than original.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> I found that the bezel washer gets worn, becomes thinner and out of shape after a number of times removing and re installing the bezel. (modifying with a crystal swap and realigning the bezel insert to be spot on!)
> 
> So I bought a bezel washer and click spring from cousinsuk. (replacement parts fro Rolex 16610) I used the new washer but kept the old click spring; with the new click spring it was too tight.
> 
> Parts are cheap and easy to change. Result is better than original.


Good to hear that.

Thanks for your reply!


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

For me, part of the current OR's value is interchangeable [virtually everything] with replacement Rollie or ETA parts... 

E.g., snowflake hands and dial.... :-d









And a top-grade Swiss ETA :-!









2824-2 must be modded to H3 pinions at least, used H4 here (stock H2 on left, H4 on right) - there is still room under the stock crystal :think:









Result looks, feels, and runs like an NOS watch Tudor never quite built... with killer lume by me! b-)









Next month it will probably look different. :-d


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Amazing


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Nicely done!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Very impressive!


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

I made the exact same choice as shakespeared and badgerracer 

What do you guys think about the fully indexed insert that looks like the Sea-Dweller Deepsea one? As someone else mentioned few messages back, I am afraid that it would look busy. Opinions? Should we nudge the good folks at Ginault to also offer us the option of a simple ceramic insert like the one in the current OR?


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

I made the exact same choice as shakespeared and badgerracer 

What do you guys think about the fully indexed insert that looks like the Sea-Dweller Deepsea one? As someone else mentioned few messages back, I am afraid that it would look busy. Opinions? Should we nudge the good folks at Ginault to also offer us the option of a simple ceramic insert like the one in the current OR?


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Good to hear that.
> 
> Thanks for your reply!


No problem, glad to be able to share some of my experience with this one.

I've been wearing my modified Ocean Rover on nato all week.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

G4_Chrono said:


> No problem, glad to be able to share some of my experience with this one.
> 
> I've been wearing my modified Ocean Rover on nato all week.
> 
> View attachment 14179323


Wow the looks beautiful!!!! What mods did you perform???

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> Wow the looks beautiful!!!! What mods did you perform???
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Hand set, AR coating on crystal, drilled lugs. Just the visible differences I can see. Looks great. Ginault take note.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> Hand set, AR coating on crystal, drilled lugs. Just the visible differences I can see. Looks great. Ginault take note.


Wow that crystal makes the dial pop!!!! Great job!

May I ask whom has performed the work?? If you don't feel like sharing, can you PM me?

THX again. It looks stunning!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> Wow that crystal makes the dial pop!!!! Great job!
> 
> May I ask whom has performed the work?? If you don't feel like sharing, can you PM me?
> 
> ...


Not me, that was G4-Chrono's work.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> Not me, that was G4-Chrono's work.


Ok thank you. Is that a WUS user or a website?

Take care.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Not me, that was G4-Chrono's work.


Thank you for the compliments and yes @Porsche993 you are correct with the mods done. . .

Hands are from Helenarou but soon to be swapped again for the same set but with "BGW9" relume to match.

Crystal is replacement flat sapphire with 2xAR from @sonil.

Lugs drilled by a gentleman in Manchester, England.


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## shakespeared (Apr 9, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> I made the exact same choice as shakespeared and badgerracer


Smart, Ntinos!


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2018)

G4_Chrono said:


> Crystal is replacement flat sapphire with 2xAR from @sonil.


I would like to replace my crystal. Would you mind letting me know which one it is that you got on Sonil?


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2018)

G4_Chrono said:


> Crystal is replacement flat sapphire with 2xAR from @sonil.


I would like to replace my crystal. Would you mind letting me know which one it is that you got on Sonil?


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## NeedAG (Jul 26, 2012)

^@sonil will know mate. Believe it's a straight OEM replacement but he or G4 can confirm.

Just realizing to ask... anybody received confirmation whether the current OR will sunset with the intro of the ORII?

Gratuitous pic in hopes the Gen1 stays available!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

NeedAG said:


> Just realizing to ask... anybody received confirmation whether the current OR will sunset with the intro of the ORII?
> 
> Gratuitous pic in hopes the Gen1 stays available!


That would be amazing, IMO. At least for us, current Gen1 proud owners. 

Another pic for this.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

NeedAG said:


> Just realizing to ask... anybody received confirmation whether the current OR will sunset with the intro of the ORII?
> 
> Gratuitous pic in hopes the Gen1 stays available!
> 
> View attachment 14196737


I imagine the Gen 1 will end once the Gen 2 is in full production. With the Gen 2 Ginault is still giving the option of the domed non-AR crystal. Hopefully they give option of an Aluminum bezel insert if they do discontinue the Gen 1. If that is the case then you can essentially get the aesthetics of the Gen 1 but with the better bezel action and bracelet tolerances of the 2nd gen.

At the same time they mentioned that they can't just swap the ceramic insert into the Gen 1 bezel design, so that would likely mean they would need to source a new aluminum insert for the 2nd gen. If that is the case they might not bother unless the demand is high enough

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

NeedAG said:


> Just realizing to ask... anybody received confirmation whether the current OR will sunset with the intro of the ORII?
> 
> Gratuitous pic in hopes the Gen1 stays available!
> 
> View attachment 14196737


I imagine the Gen 1 will end once the Gen 2 is in full production. With the Gen 2 Ginault is still giving the option of the domed non-AR crystal. Hopefully they give option of an Aluminum bezel insert if they do discontinue the Gen 1. If that is the case then you can essentially get the aesthetics of the Gen 1 but with the better bezel action and bracelet tolerances of the 2nd gen.

At the same time they mentioned that they can't just swap the ceramic insert into the Gen 1 bezel design, so that would likely mean they would need to source a new aluminum insert for the 2nd gen. If that is the case they might not bother unless the demand is high enough

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

I’d rather have the option of the improved bracelet or just the reprofiled clasp for the Gen1 (ideally, with a discount).


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

Recently picked one up again, sold the last one back in November. Had to get one back 









Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

Date or no date? Can't decide. I'd like to see more pics of date version. Thank you. 

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

phatning said:


> Date or no date? Can't decide. I'd like to see more pics of date version. Thank you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

jprangley said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you for sharing the photo.

After considering how long the wait might be for OR2, I pulled the trigger and bought the first gen OR, none date version.

Hope I won't have any buyer remorse...

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Saw this IG post from Ginault last week. I myself believed in their claims since day 1 after doing comprehensive research. I must say this is something us fans have all been wanting and waiting to see. I emailed them and asked if they had these photos since two years ago, why not post them sooner? John explained info like these can be a potential leak for their production process so they had to wait until now they have moved onto their ORII project.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Finally they respond to the requests about the manufacturing. 

Hope they keep it up!


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

DanBYU said:


> Saw this IG post from Ginault last week. I myself believed in their claims since day 1 after doing comprehensive research. I must say this is something us fans have all been wanting and waiting to see. I emailed them and asked if they had these photos since two years ago, why not post them sooner? John explained info like these can be a potential leak for their production process so they had to wait until now they have moved onto their ORII project.
> 
> View attachment 14209791


What did you find when you did your comprehensive research? Just curious, because I reached the opposite conclusion with mine. Happy to be proven wrong, though.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

3005 said:


> What did you find when you did your comprehensive research? Just curious, because I reached the opposite conclusion with mine.


Have you heard about confirmation bias? 😉


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I used to do comprehensive research of all of my intended purchases but now I just buy stuff and enjoy it, save lots of time that way.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

3005 said:


> What did you find when you did your comprehensive research? Just curious, because I reached the opposite conclusion with mine. Happy to be proven wrong, though.


I basically spent an entire week (perhaps even longer) reading through every thread there is, not just this forum but also on the dark side about Ginault, all the rumors, debates, and controversies.

But I am not surprised that many like you reached the opposite conclusion. Much like confirmation bias which is a dangerous trap, sensationalism style rumors can also be a danger we all fall trap to. When a sensational rumor is read and then repeatedly stated by 100 others as "truth", (without each one of the 100 accounts' own independent verification) to the general public who didn't really spend the time on due diligence, it can easily be confused as the "real truth". However, the reality is they are just 100 unverified retweets, all based on one unverified source or rumor/conjecture if you will.

For example, many thought TC was behind Ginault. But when I looked at photos of the Ocean Rover's parts vs TC's, to me, although looking very similar they are simply NOT the same. This is kind of like when you first meet a pair of identical twins you may think they look identical but after spending enough time to get your brain/eyes acclimated you will be able to tell the subtle differences, or maybe not so subtle anymore.

Many expert members on the rep forums agreed on Ginault's parts being different. But for some that still believed in the TC rumor just ended up calling it V8 parts, LOL (the last known release for TC Subs was the V7) To me, being able to improve that fast on the level of production quality from one version to another is a bit of a stretch. A perfect analogy of this would be an AMA Superbike rider goes over to MotoGP and win a MotoGP race next day. To the eyes of the general public who doesn't ride/race motorcycles these riders all appear to be masters at what they do and won't be able to tell the differences. But in reality, they are just not in the same league.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

Homage debate aside, do you guys feel that the value is there with these watches? I am considering pre-ordering the ORII. Based on what I have read and watched online it seems that the consensus is that the ginaults punch above their weight and are superior to most options in the price range.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2018)

dickopf said:


> Homage debate aside, do you guys feel that the value is there with these watches? I am considering pre-ordering the ORII. Based on what I have read and watched online it seems that the consensus is that the ginaults punch above their weight and are superior to most options in the price range.


I feel that it does punch above its weight and it is a great value to me, but others may disagree. I didn't spend their money on my watch, so as long as it makes me happy, that is all that matters.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2018)

dickopf said:


> Homage debate aside, do you guys feel that the value is there with these watches? I am considering pre-ordering the ORII. Based on what I have read and watched online it seems that the consensus is that the ginaults punch above their weight and are superior to most options in the price range.


I feel that it does punch above its weight and it is a great value to me, but others may disagree. I didn't spend their money on my watch, so as long as it makes me happy, that is all that matters.


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## Mvale87 (Sep 10, 2015)

I'm actually very tempted to purchase one but I think I'll wait for the gen2 model.


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

Mvale87 said:


> I'm actually very tempted to purchase one but I think I'll wait for the gen2 model.


I gave in to my temptation. Bought OR off Ebay and placed an order for OR II.

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

I was trying to figure out just what the new blue bezel OR2 is going to look like when I stumbled across this article. Still going to wait until I see actual pics before I pull the trigger but if it's anything close to this it should do really well.



















https://www.rolexmagazine.com/2011/12/true-blue-sub-rolex-submariner.html?m=1


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

phatning said:


> I gave in to my temptation. Bought OR off Ebay and placed an order for OR II.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


Look forward to hearing your thoughts comparing both versions.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dickopf said:


> Homage debate aside, do you guys feel that the value is there with these watches? I am considering pre-ordering the ORII. Based on what I have read and watched online it seems that the consensus is that the ginaults punch above their weight and are superior to most options in the price range.


Just like with anything else. People like it, people don't. The general consensus is to me without a doubt. They do punch above their weight class. And are superior to most in their price range. Especially with the ORII Phase 1 pre orders.  Is why i just pre ordered mine.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dickopf said:


> Homage debate aside, do you guys feel that the value is there with these watches? I am considering pre-ordering the ORII. Based on what I have read and watched online it seems that the consensus is that the ginaults punch above their weight and are superior to most options in the price range.


Just like with anything else. People like it, people don't. The general consensus is to me without a doubt. They do punch above their weight class. And are superior to most in their price range. Especially with the ORII Phase 1 pre orders.  Is why i just pre ordered mine.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

Since I’ve owned three different Ginault watches, I obviously like them, but my one gripe is the gawd awful bezel action. Why can’t micros spend some effort on it? I have yet to find one that’s even close to pleasing to operate.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I think the bezel action on my OR is quite good.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

For those who have pre-ordered an ORII, who would prefer a dial with less text? It seems like with the ORII they are willing to offer more choices (ceramic or aluminum, 7275 or SW200). I want to email Ginault and ask about the option for a dial with simplified dial text. I imagine they would be more open to the idea if it had many people behind it versus just one guy complaining. Either post or PM me if you have ordered an ORII (or would if there was a simplified dial option) and are interested. 

I am specifically thinking of having the rose logo and Ginault on top and Ocean Rover and 1000ft/300m below. 

This is something I know has been brought up on WUS/reviews before, so it can’t hurt to ask! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

badgerracer said:


> For those who have pre-ordered an ORII, who would prefer a dial with less text? It seems like with the ORII they are willing to offer more choices (ceramic or aluminum, 7275 or SW200). I want to email Ginault and ask about the option for a dial with simplified dial text. I imagine they would be more open to the idea if it had many people behind it versus just one guy complaining. Either post or PM me if you have ordered an ORII (or would if there was a simplified dial option) and are interested.
> 
> I am specifically thinking of having the rose logo and Ginault on top and Ocean Rover and 1000ft/300m below.
> 
> ...


Less text would be nice. And so would a signed clasp.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

badgerracer said:


> For those who have pre-ordered an ORII, who would prefer a dial with less text? It seems like with the ORII they are willing to offer more choices (ceramic or aluminum, 7275 or SW200). I want to email Ginault and ask about the option for a dial with simplified dial text. I imagine they would be more open to the idea if it had many people behind it versus just one guy complaining. Either post or PM me if you have ordered an ORII (or would if there was a simplified dial option) and are interested.
> 
> I am specifically thinking of having the rose logo and Ginault on top and Ocean Rover and 1000ft/300m below.
> 
> ...


Less text would be nice. And so would a signed clasp.


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## euro-rs (Aug 23, 2014)

Pretty cool looking. Is it accurate?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Looking to get the 2.0 OR but will ask for the blue/gold aluminum bezel because that looks nicer to me than the white ceramic that's on everything these days -- my only question to you guys is, should I stick to the new _flat _"triple layer optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire" crystal or revert to the old domed crystal (no AR)?


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Hi. Are you sure one can order the OR2.0 with the aluminum insert? This is the only thing that I do not like about the revised OR, not because it is ceramic, but because it is fully indexed like the one of the Sea-Dweller Deepsea. As others have mentioned, I am afraid that it would look busy.

I agree with others that less text would be nice, as would be an engraved ginault logo on the bracelet clasp.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Ntinos_H said:


> Hi. Are you sure one can order the OR2.0 with the aluminum insert? This is the only thing that I do not like about the revised OR, not because it is ceramic, but because it is fully indexed like the one of the Sea-Dweller Deepsea. As others have mentioned, I am afraid that it would look busy.
> 
> I agree with others that less text would be nice, as would be an engraved ginault logo on the bracelet clasp.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


In a recent FAQ email John McMurty said that they will fit an aluminum insert upon request

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

This is great news, thanks!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Yeah you can request an aluminum bezel. I'm just trying to figure out whether I want a flat crystal with AR (the newer model) or ask for the domed crystal with no AR. I wish I can see both side by side.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

watchesaresocool said:


> Yeah you can request an aluminum bezel. I'm just trying to figure out whether I want a flat crystal with AR (the newer model) or ask for the domed crystal with no AR. I wish I can see both side by side.


I recommend going with the flat+AR. Ideally he'd offer the domed with AR but he doesn't. Take AR since the crystal clarity isn't good without it.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> In a recent FAQ email John McMurty said that they will fit an aluminum insert upon request
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Where can I find the recent FAQ? I am on the list as I have made a pre-order, but not sure if I have received that email.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> I recommend going with the flat+AR. Ideally he'd offer the domed with AR but he doesn't. Take AR since the crystal clarity isn't good without it.


Yes, we need pictures!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Ntinos_H said:


> Yes, we need pictures!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Well several of us have modded our OR1 with dual AR crystals (domed and flat). You can see how it makes the dial pop. Also the stock pictures show how hazy the crystal is without AR and how much it reflects.

The OR2 will have inner AR only. It won't allow the dial to pop as much as dual but it will significantly reduce reflections and haze. And you don't have to worry about the inevitable scratching of the outer AR.

All the pics you need are in this thread...happy searching!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

cwfmon said:


> Well several of us have modded our OR1 with dual AR crystals (domed and flat). You can see how it makes the dial pop. Also the stock pictures show how hazy the crystal is without AR and how much it reflects.
> 
> The OR2 will have inner AR only. It won't allow the dial to pop as much as dual but it will significantly reduce reflections and haze. And you don't have to worry about the inevitable scratching of the outer AR.
> 
> All the pics you need are in this thread...happy searching!


Would it be a good idea to get the previous domed crystal and mod it with AR instead of getting flat with AR out the box, then?


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Thanks cwfman, I will have a look. Before I made a mistake--I meant to quote watchesaresocool message. I any case, it would be nice to have pictures of the new watch.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

watchesaresocool said:


> Would it be a good idea to get the previous domed crystal and mod it with AR instead of getting flat with AR out the box, then?


IMHO, yes. That's what I did and I love it. Best of both worlds. It'll cost you about $150 by our man rnrprof. Note that I'm pretty sure Ginault is using Prof for their new inner AR crystals.

Only issue is that inevitably the outer will scratch but that's reality we have to live with.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

cwfmon said:


> IMHO, yes. That's what I did and I love it. Best of both worlds. It'll cost you about $150 by our man rnrprof. Note that I'm pretty sure Ginault is using Prof for their new inner AR crystals.
> 
> Only issue is that inevitably the outer will scratch but that's reality we have to live with.


I'd probably just ask for underside coating.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> For those who have pre-ordered an ORII, who would prefer a dial with less text? It seems like with the ORII they are willing to offer more choices (ceramic or aluminum, 7275 or SW200). I want to email Ginault and ask about the option for a dial with simplified dial text. I imagine they would be more open to the idea if it had many people behind it versus just one guy complaining. Either post or PM me if you have ordered an ORII (or would if there was a simplified dial option) and are interested.
> 
> I am specifically thinking of having the rose logo and Ginault on top and Ocean Rover and 1000ft/300m below.
> 
> ...


Hey mate,

I asked this exact question and he responded saying that they would require additional equipment which would be very costly in order to reduce the text on the dial. So it's not really possible unless you are willing to spend many thousands.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> I was trying to figure out just what the new blue bezel OR2 is going to look like when I stumbled across this article. Still going to wait until I see actual pics before I pull the trigger but if it's anything close to this it should do really well.


Yikes this looks incredible!


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

timekepr said:


> Just like with anything else. People like it, people don't. The general consensus is to me without a doubt. They do punch above their weight class. And are superior to most in their price range. Especially with the ORII Phase 1 pre orders.  Is why i just pre ordered mine.


I pre-ordered as well  
Thanks for chiming in.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dickopf said:


> Hey mate,
> 
> I asked this exact question and he responded saying that they would require additional equipment which would be very costly in order to reduce the text on the dial. So it's not really possible unless you are willing to spend many thousands.


And engraved clasp would be a nice improvement too! Hopefully sometime in the near future.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

So I'm still deciding between the flat or domed crystal -- does anyone have a view of the domed crystal from a side profile to see how it sticks out? I only see domed crystals head on so it's hard to tell how it really looks.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> So I'm still deciding between the flat or domed crystal -- does anyone have a view of the domed crystal from a side profile to see how it sticks out? I only see domed crystals head on so it's hard to tell how it really looks.


Hope these help. 

















In my opinion, it does not stick that much compared to my Rolex.

What bothers me from the domed crystal is how much reflections I got (again, compared to my Rolex). I bought a flat crystal from Ginault and will change it (some day...).


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## AUTOmaniak (Feb 5, 2012)

Another pic for you.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Yeah if you like to take wristies the domed crystal makes it tough to get a decent dial shot but with double AR it may be different.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Hey guys my perorders in and the wait begins... I went for the no date version black bezel with BGW9 Lume. 

Was torn between the Sw200 and Ginaults own calibre so posted a thread and got some very interesting info back. Based on that I'll be going with the Sellita.

I haven't been offered the option to choose between flat of domed crystal though. am I right in assuming that it comes with a flat one unless domed is requested? 

Whilst I'm here has anyone opted for the Ginault Calibre instead of the Sellita?? 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Any updates on when the actual pictures or rendering for the OR 2 is supposed to come out?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

qiao.feng said:


> Any updates on when the actual pictures or rendering for the OR 2 is supposed to come out?


Ginault have been silent since taking my deposit but I did ask Beforehand. John couldn't give me a specific date but told me it'll be sometime in August and everyone will have the opportunity to get a refund on thier deposit if they don't like it. He also told me to keep an eye on the Instagram page and shipping will most likely be end of Q3.

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Ginault have been silent since taking my deposit but I did ask Beforehand. John couldn't give me a specific date but told me it'll be sometime in August and everyone will have the opportunity to get a refund on thier deposit if they don't like it. He also told me to keep an eye on the Instagram page and shipping will most likely be end of Q3.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


So the original deadline before July 20th to cancel our order has been extended indefinitely until we can see the product? That's good to know, thanks!


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

qiao.feng said:


> So the original deadline before July 20th to cancel our order has been extended indefinitely until we can see the product? That's good to know, thanks!


I just received an email from John regarding a specific date on a refund. Also asked about a signed clasp. He said.

We do not have a set date on making changes to your order. But the general rule of thumb is of course, the sooner you can make a final decision on the style the better and smoother it will be for us to prepare.

As for a logo on the clasp, we have tried both ways in the past. Engraving (like Tudor did on their's) didn't look right. We thought about adding the logo to the safety folding clasp as well but during actual field tests, diving, fishing, flyfishing, you wouldn't believe how often that extrusion got in the way or lines got caught. As a diver watch, we actually think that is a design flaw by Rolex on the 97200 bracelets. But Rolex isn't too worried about it because of 116610 owners don't take their Subs diving/fishing these days. However, that concern is rather real for our Ocean Rover. I hope this helps. So, in the end, we decided to keep it as utilitarian and functional as how this watch was originally designed to be.


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Thanks for the update!


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

qiao.feng said:


> Thanks for the update!


YW. Glad to be of help.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Thanks for the update 

Looks like the plain clasp and the essay on the dial are here to stay. 

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Thanks for the update
> 
> Looks like the plain clasp and the essay on the dial are here to stay.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


YW. Would love to see and engraved clasp anyway.  Just use another watch for diving/fishing.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Hey guys my perorders in and the wait begins... I went for the no date version black bezel with BGW9 Lume.
> 
> Was torn between the Sw200 and Ginaults own calibre so posted a thread and got some very interesting info back. Based on that I'll be going with the Sellita.
> 
> ...


From John. Two things to note, all the no-date variants are now equipped with flat crystals (with AR). Domed crystal (no AR) can be installed upon request. All date variants have a flat crystal (AR) with a 2.5x magnifier over the date windows. Non-Cyclops crystal (flat or domed) can be installed upon request.

I went with the CAL7275. IMHO. I preferred the machining and assembly of some of the parts in house.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I'm not getting one of new ones because I'm still happy enough with my old one. But if I was getting a new one, I would definitely get the 7275. In my case it's proven to be quite accurate, and I've seen nothing to make me worry that I was just unusually lucky. The Selitta is a common movement that I can find in hundreds of models from many companies. What I've seen from Ginault is lots of TLC on the visible parts: case, dial, bracelet, etc. I'm comfortable in assuming they apply similar TLC to their movement.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Avo said:


> I'm not getting one of new ones because I'm still happy enough with my old one. But if I was getting a new one, I would definitely get the 7275. In my case it's proven to be quite accurate, and I've seen nothing to make me worry that I was just unusually lucky. The Selitta is a common movement that I can find in hundreds of models from many companies. What I've seen from Ginault is lots of TLC on the visible parts: case, dial, bracelet, etc. I'm comfortable in assuming they apply similar TLC to their movement.


Since this would be my first Ginault. I tried to read as much as i could about them. Pros and cons. I never came across any reviews saying their quality was subpar or average. I am very confident in their movement too.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Avo said:


> I'm not getting one of new ones because I'm still happy enough with my old one. But if I was getting a new one, I would definitely get the 7275. In my case it's proven to be quite accurate, and I've seen nothing to make me worry that I was just unusually lucky. The Selitta is a common movement that I can find in hundreds of models from many companies. What I've seen from Ginault is lots of TLC on the visible parts: case, dial, bracelet, etc. I'm comfortable in assuming they apply similar TLC to their movement.


Wouldn't a Selitta be easier to fix from a general watch smith as opposed to having to fix/regulate the movement down the line by shipping it to Ginault? And what if Ginault isn't around to fix it by that time?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Wouldn't a Selitta be easier to fix from a general watch smith as opposed to having to fix/regulate the movement down the line by shipping it to Ginault? And what if Ginault isn't around to fix it by that time?


My thoughts exactly. Someone mentioned on a thread I posted about the possible lack of interchangeability between the Ginault movement and the 2824. Although they're basically the same movement ETA still have patents on some of the parts. It'd probably mean shipping it off to Ginault if things went wrong and we'd be screwed if Ginault disappear (unlikely but possible) personally I Can't see there being much difference between the 2 accuracy wise and Sellita parts are easily available.

What are the arguments in favour of the In-house movement?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

At this price level, it's far more cost effective to simply replace a broken movement rather than repair one. (There is a long post by docvail of NTH on this issue from a few months ago.) Even servicing is probably not cost effective. And if you have a Swatch brand watch (Hamilton, Tissot, Omega, &#8230 and send it in to for service, your movement is replaced with a refurbished one from someone else's watch. Your movement is then serviced and put in a pile to be installed in yet another watch later.

So I am not at all worried about servicing down the line. And I want to support whatever Ginault is doing to bring movement assembly to the US.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Long time no pics!









Look forward to seeing pics comparing the two OR generations (maybe even by Ginault?).


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Avo said:


> At this price level, it's far more cost effective to simply replace a broken movement rather than repair one. (There is a long post by docvail of NTH on this issue from a few months ago.) Even servicing is probably not cost effective. And if you have a Swatch brand watch (Hamilton, Tissot, Omega, &#8230 and send it in to for service, your movement is replaced with a refurbished one from someone else's watch. Your movement is then serviced and put in a pile to be installed in yet another watch later.
> 
> So I am not at all worried about servicing down the line. And I want to support whatever Ginault is doing to bring movement assembly to the US.


Okay, interesting. I'm new to buying watches with an in house movement. You're telling me that if I'd go with Ginault's movement, if something messes up down the line, I can just go to a watch smith in my area and ask him to put a new 2824 instead, and that would be cheaper than fixing a Selitta anyway?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Okay, interesting. I'm new to buying watches with an in house movement. You're telling me that if I'd go with Ginault's movement, if something messes up down the line, I can just go to a watch smith in my area and ask him to put a new 2824 instead, and that would be cheaper than fixing a Selitta anyway?


I'm sure someone here with more experience will be able to elaborate but the short answer: Yes. I've read on here about people swapping the movement with a 2824 and since Ginaults in house movement is pretty much a clone I'm assuming it shouldn't be too difficult for a watchmaker.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

The Ginault caliber 7275 is a clone of an ETA 2824...

...as is the Sellita SW200. All them three have the exact same parts and are 100% interchangeable. Same hands size (that's why it's so easy to customise your Ginault with any handset, by the way), same crown height, etc. 

I concur with regards to Ginault's caliber 7275 quality, actually. Mine is almost two years old and runs +0.6s/d which is at the same level of any Superlative Chronometer, and actually a bit better than my Tudor Black Bay. I think of the 7275 as the equivalent of a Chronometer Grade ETA, basically. Any watchsmith that opens that caseback should be able to perform a full service and adjustment with no problems at all. And worst case, you can go and get yourself a Sellita or ETA movement and swap it directly, no need to worry. 

Didnt order this one as I want to see the photos first, and we have other financial commitments this half of the year at home, but I know that everything that comes out of that factory is a great product indeed.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> Thanks cwfman, I will have a look. Before I made a mistake--I meant to quote watchesaresocool message. I any case, it would be nice to have pictures of the new watch.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


This would be awesome! Prof really makes good crystals !


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> The Ginault caliber 7275 is a clone of an ETA 2824...
> 
> ...as is the Sellita SW200. All them three have the exact same parts and are 100% interchangeable. Same hands size (that's why it's so easy to customise your Ginault with any handset, by the way), same crown height, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the response. If that's the case I might actually go with 7275. How does your Ginault square up compared to your Tudor BB? People tend to say the Ginault comes close to Rolex at a lower price and people say the same about Tudor. How do they stack up compared to one another?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> The Ginault caliber 7275 is a clone of an ETA 2824...
> 
> ...as is the Sellita SW200. All them three have the exact same parts and are 100% interchangeable. Same hands size (that's why it's so easy to customise your Ginault with any handset, by the way), same crown height, etc


I have reason to believe differently

I created a thread on here about this topic a few days ago, the following was part of someone's reply.

"The Sellita SW200, which is another copy of the basic 2824 design, has very little, if any, part interchangeability with the 2824. Profiles on the gear teeth are different, IIRC because of patents on ETA's tooth profile."

Again I'm no expert but this does seem plausible. Swapping the entire movement can be done so I guess it doesn't matter either way.

I'm also interested to hear how this compares against the Tudor. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Lume is smurfy









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> I have reason to believe differently
> 
> I created a thread on here about this topic a few days ago, the following was part of someone's reply.
> 
> ...


The Sellita SW200, which is another copy of the basic 2824 design, has very little, if any, part interchangeability with the 2824. Profiles on the gear teeth are different, IIRC because of patents on ETA's tooth profile. I asked John about this. His reply was.

Yes, that is correct, some parts of the ETA 2824 cannot be fitted to SW200 or vice versa. But design-wise, no one would ever doubt the SW200-1 is based on the 2824 blueprint or claim otherwise. This is why if a midcase can take a 2824, then it will be able to take a SW200-1 or any 2824 clones.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> I have reason to believe differently
> 
> I created a thread on here about this topic a few days ago, the following was part of someone's reply.
> 
> ...


The Sellita SW200, which is another copy of the basic 2824 design, has very little, if any, part interchangeability with the 2824. Profiles on the gear teeth are different, IIRC because of patents on ETA's tooth profile. I asked John about this. His reply was.

Yes, that is correct, some parts of the ETA 2824 cannot be fitted to SW200 or vice versa. But design-wise, no one would ever doubt the SW200-1 is based on the 2824 blueprint or claim otherwise. This is why if a midcase can take a 2824, then it will be able to take a SW200-1 or any 2824 clones.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

timekepr said:


> The Sellita SW200, which is another copy of the basic 2824 design, has very little, if any, part interchangeability with the 2824. Profiles on the gear teeth are different, IIRC because of patents on ETA's tooth profile. I asked John about this. His reply was.
> 
> Yes, that is correct, some parts of the ETA 2824 cannot be fitted to SW200 or vice versa. But design-wise, no one would ever doubt the SW200-1 is based on the 2824 blueprint or claim otherwise. This is why if a midcase can take a 2824, then it will be able to take a SW200-1 or any 2824 clones.


Thanks for getting in contact with John to clear this up.

So this info confirms what we were discussing

1. The Movement can easily be swapped out for a 2824 or another Sellita

2. Any watch with the Ginault Calibre will have to go back to Ginault for repairs/replacement parts.

Reinforces my decision to stick with Sellita personally I don't see the point in getting an in house movement only to replace it with an ETA in a few years time.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> I have reason to believe differently
> 
> I created a thread on here about this topic a few days ago, the following was part of someone's reply.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... That's very interesting, I stand corrected then! The teeth profile difference makes 100% sense, actually. This way Sellita can get away with the same movement but different specs. What I'm sure is that all three movements share the same design, but never thought about these details, it is indeed ery interesting.

With regards to the Tudor comparison, I'd say both are on the same level, without a doubt. I have some Seiko and I've had several Steinhart before, and all of them are/were overwhelmingly below the Tudor. Not the Ginault, honestly. Case finish is at the same level, with fine details on the chamfered lugs, consistency of brushing patterns, etc. Dials are both deep black, superb and mirror polished indices and hands, bracelets are both smooth and comfortable, both clasps are solid, easy to manipulate and offer zero play. Also the solid end links fit to the case perfectly, with no gaps at all, and no play at all either. I already gave my opinion on the movement, which so far holds better than COSC specs after two years. I have handled many watches in my life and I can honestly say the Ginault can go face to face with watches at the 4k-6k range, easily.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> Thanks for getting in contact with John to clear this up.
> 
> So this info confirms what we were discussing
> 
> ...


Re: 2), you would not have to send your watch back to Ginault just to be serviced and has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, should the movement need any repairs ore replacement parts at all the cheapest/easiest thing to is swap out a new movement anyway. Again, this wouldn't need to be done at Ginault.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

This is good info and explains re: ETA and Sellita, but doesn't explain whether the Ginault's parts are interchangeable with either. If they are, then no problem for repairs. And if replacement is cheaper than repair, it doesn't matter in any case.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> Re: 2), you would not have to send your watch back to Ginault just to be serviced and has already been pointed out earlier in this thread, should the movement need any repairs ore replacement parts at all the cheapest/easiest thing to is swap out a new movement anyway. Again, this wouldn't need to be done at Ginault.


Yes as I've stated swapping the movement out is an option.

Should anything break yes It would be more cost effective to just change the movement but it would be wrong to assume everyone would be willing to do that especially those who have the Ginault calibre, as it defeats the whole purpose of having an in house movment.

In this case parts would need replacing which would have to be done by Ginault as is the case for all current Gen 1 owners.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Belloc said:


> This is good info and explains re: ETA and Sellita, but doesn't explain whether the Ginault's parts are interchangeable with either. If they are, then no problem for repairs. And if replacement is cheaper than repair, it doesn't matter in any case.


Because of the patents ETA still hold and the fact that a lot of Ginaults parts are assembled/machined and finished in the USA I think it'll be safe to assume that Ginaults ETA clone suffers from the same issue as the Sellita regarding parts interchangeability.

Might be worth asking John though see what he makes of it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Because of the patents ETA still hold and the fact that a lot of Ginaults parts are machined and finished in the USA I think it'll be safe to assume that Ginaults ETA clone suffers from the same issue as the Sellita regarding parts interchangeability.
> 
> Might be worth asking John though see what he makes of it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Wonder if that means Ginault parts are interchangeable with Sellita parts?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Hahaha  maybe. but that would make it a sellita clone.... which means they'd be copying the copy

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

x


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Hahaha  maybe. but that would make it a sellita clone.... which means they'd be copying the copy
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Except that, according to what seems to have just been established, the Sellita isn't an exact copy of the current ETA. So the question: is the Ginault caliber an exact copy of one of the two (interchangeable in all ways), or a "similar design, same footprint" like the Sellita is to the ETA. My understanding was that the 2824 was out of copyright, which is why it could be copied. If the basic old design is out of copyright, but the new changes are not, then the Ginault may indeed be an exact copy of the Sellita, if the Sellita is an exact copy of the old ETA. If it's not an exact copy of anything, then it may have incorporated changes that make it either better or worse than either the ETA or the Sellita.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

Has anyone done a comparison with the Christopher Ward c60 Trident Mk 3?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

dickopf said:


> Has anyone done a comparison with the Christopher Ward c60 Trident Mk 3?






Bonus also comparing against the Monta Oceanking

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

I always assumed Ginault was sourcing Chinese copies of the ETA 2824, since they are so readily available, and then finishing some aspect of the movement to call it US made.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> I always assumed Ginault was sourcing Chinese copies of the ETA 2824, since they are so readily available, and then finishing some aspect of the movement to call it US made.


They say they make all parts except the springs, shock absorbers, and jewels, and assemble in the States. LOTS of verbiage and hypothesizing on this. They've apparently starting showing some photos of their manufacturing processes on Instagram, though I haven't been following that.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

As has been pointed out by docvail, the Swiss 2824's and Sellita's may themselves have large amounts of China-made components, since the rules for what can be called a "Swiss made" movement allow for a large part of the "value" to come from labor of assembly in Switzerland.


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## GermanyMatt (Aug 5, 2013)

So basically they source what they can from China and make enough components, and assemble them, to meet the US Made standard. I still own a Ginault, had three at one time, but I never put a ton of stock into their claims of made in USA. I know they had to reword text on the dial, or caseback, because of it in the early days. Nice watches nonetheless, and pretty much all micro brands are doing something similar to pass “Swiss Made” regulations.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Bonus also comparing against the Monta Oceanking
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly what I needed thanks!


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Cal7275 is a clone of the 2824, regardless where the parts of the movement is produced, it does not qualify it as an in-house movement. I think Ginault was very clear about this since day one.


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

A couple shots of my soon to be released Christopher Ward C60 Trident Pro GMT 600 (Mk2) next to OR. The CW is 38mm but wears bigger. It has a noticeably thicker profile than OR's. Personally, OR wears more comfortably. The ceramic bezel on CW is a beauty. The only downside is that it runs about +12 sec/day so it's not as accurate as the OR.









Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

Asked about the discount but it seems all discounts are dead on the current model. Not really feeling it at MSRP.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

GermanyMatt said:


> So basically they source what they can from China and make enough components, and assemble them, to meet the US Made standard. I still own a Ginault, had three at one time, but I never put a ton of stock into their claims of made in USA. I know they had to reword text on the dial, or caseback, because of it in the early days. Nice watches nonetheless, and pretty much all micro brands are doing something similar to pass "Swiss Made" regulations.


If they make everything but the springs, jewels, and shock absorbers, that would likely meet the Swiss standard for "Swiss Made," but not the US standard for "Made in USA." But this has all been hashed out many times.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

phatning said:


> A couple shots of my soon to be released Christopher Ward C60 Trident Pro GMT 600 (Mk2) next to OR. The CW is 38mm but wears bigger. It has a noticeably thicker profile than OR's. Personally, OR wears more comfortably. The ceramic bezel on CW is a beauty. The only downside is that it runs about +12 sec/day so it's not as accurate as the OR.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't believe that CW is 38mm it looks huge compared to the OR. Not a massive fan of CW personally. They struggle to make good looking dials. The MK 3 is even worse with the logo at 9oclock and that weird shaped hour hand. Build quality/price seem good though

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

My OR runs +1 over a few days so almost perfect. Never slow which is super important to me. I would rather have a watch run +10 than -1. Not a problem for me to be early but never late! Also easier to stop a watch that runs fast than reset the time on a slow one.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

GermanyMatt said:


> So basically they source what they can from China and make enough components, and assemble them, to meet the US Made standard. I still own a Ginault, had three at one time, but I never put a ton of stock into their claims of made in USA. I know they had to reword text on the dial, or caseback, because of it in the early days. Nice watches nonetheless, and pretty much all micro brands are doing something similar to pass "Swiss Made" regulations.


No offense but this issue has been discussed ad nauseum and is old (in my view, fake) news. If you want full details, I think this article does a very good job of addressing.

https://wristwatchreview.com/2017/03/22/the-controversial-ginault-on-the-wrist-and-whats-really-going-on-here/


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

The US Made standard is 100% US made. Even if you have just one screw that was not made in the US, using US steel, it would not qualify for that Made In USA moniker. It's not the same as that 60% of the total cost crap from Switzerland. 

In 2011, Ginault's BM1 was equipped with ETA 2824; even if they produced every other part of the BM1 in the US, using a Swiss movement obviously already disqualified the Made In USA moniker but their BM1 caseback still said "Made In USA"

Whether it was an oversight due to ignorance or a sheer attempt to fool the public we would never know. But the fact a small microbrand caused so much controversy, and grabbed so much attention, good or bad, in such short amount of time, putting them right next to Rolex and TC, to me is a masterful maneuver. Whoever orchestrated that whole thing, is a true mastermind.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Belloc said:


> Wonder if that means Ginault parts are interchangeable with Sellita parts?


From John. Some 2824 parts are interchangeable with 7275 and SW200-1 (and some parts are not, more so on the 7275 than SW200) so most qualified watchmakers should be able to service/replace a 7275 with ease down the road.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

No complaints about the original movement and haven't ordered a V2 but any reason for another wristie is good for me.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

59er said:


> No complaints about the original movement and haven't ordered a V2 but any reason for another wristie is good for me.


Looks awesome mate, regardless of what's being said we can't go wrong with either movement.

I do wish Ginault were a bit more communicative though. A few updates every now and then would be nice. The wait is agonising lol

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> The wait is agonising lol


I think thats the point.


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## dugan.rec (Dec 7, 2011)

Good discussion on here gents. Very helpful. I posted this question in another thread but this ones fairly active and wanted to get peoples thoughts on the new ocean rover. Do you think it’s worth the extra cash (probably $2-300) over a second hand OR1? This would be a first Ginault for me, and I’m agonizing a little over the decision. Seems like yes, but what say the forum?


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

dugan.rec said:


> Good discussion on here gents. Very helpful. I posted this question in another thread but this ones fairly active and wanted to get peoples thoughts on the new ocean rover. Do you think it's worth the extra cash (probably $2-300) over a second hand OR1? This would be a first Ginault for me, and I'm agonizing a little over the decision. Seems like yes, but what say the forum?


I'd wait for the actual pictures/rendering before making that decision, more likely the changes will be subtle so if you can find a good deal on a used one, perhaps that's not a bad idea


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dugan.rec said:


> Good discussion on here gents. Very helpful. I posted this question in another thread but this ones fairly active and wanted to get peoples thoughts on the new ocean rover. Do you think it's worth the extra cash (probably $2-300) over a second hand OR1? This would be a first Ginault for me, and I'm agonizing a little over the decision. Seems like yes, but what say the forum?


These reasons IMO is why i think it's worth it. The changes/upgrades are.
Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated 
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min fully graduated, lume pip at 12 o'clock (aluminum insert can be mounted upon request)
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned with a new Quattro-Coil support system for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is slightly re-profiled with deeper, sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple layer optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

dugan.rec said:


> Good discussion on here gents. Very helpful. I posted this question in another thread but this ones fairly active and wanted to get peoples thoughts on the new ocean rover. Do you think it's worth the extra cash (probably $2-300) over a second hand OR1? This would be a first Ginault for me, and I'm agonizing a little over the decision. Seems like yes, but what say the forum?


The only visual changes in the new version is the ceramic bezel and the flat sapphire crystal if you specify it. Other non visual updates include minor tweaks to the bracelet and the option of a Swiss movment.

Personally I don't think it'll be worth the extra cash and if you can find a preowned OR1 in good condition and the price is right I'd go for that. My guess is there's going to be a rise OR1s for sale over the coming months so you'll have a lot to choose from.

I would of went down this route but all the preowned ones I find are outside of europe and it wouldn't be worth it after customs/VAT charges & shipping costs.

Before you make any decisions though wait untill Ginault release the renders of the OR2. (keep an eye on Ginaults Instagram page)


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## dugan.rec (Dec 7, 2011)

Great thoughts. Thanks guys.


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

First Ginault...2nd on order. The only way to make the wait less agonizing.









Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dugan.rec said:


> Great thoughts. Thanks guys.


YW. No wrong decision new or used. Good luck.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

Are there any other watches at this price point that compare in terms of fit and finish?


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dickopf said:


> Are there any other watches at this price point that compare in terms of fit and finish?


I don't have the knowledge that some people here on the forum have. In terms of fit and finish. I would say there are probably watches that compare, to the Ginault at this price point. But unlikely they would better the Ginault at this price point.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

dickopf said:


> Are there any other watches at this price point that compare in terms of fit and finish?


You can also check out Monta, (priced a few hundred higher) also a US based company but unlike Ginault, Monta outsources its assembly to assembly shops in Switzerland.

In terms of fit&finish, many say Monta is better than the Ocean Rover. But personally, I think the OR is still a notch above, not only in fit&finish but also in machining techniques and process. The biggest winning point for me of the OR is its dial, true high-gloss enamel, and that beautifully forged applied indices, curved hands, details only found in very high-end watches these days.

Where Monta tops the OR is their effort in bringing a more original design to the age-old Sub diver inspired scene. Kudos to them. End of the day, these two are both really really nicely made pieces for a fair price. They are to me, Rolex and Omega of the microbrands.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Anyone else having a hard time deciding between aluminum and ceramic?


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

watchesaresocool said:


> Anyone else having a hard time deciding between aluminum and ceramic?


Depends on how you use your watch, aluminum is usually the best choice if you wear it as daily beater because it's robust and cheap to replace.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

watchesaresocool said:


> Anyone else having a hard time deciding between aluminum and ceramic?


Ginault going with the ceramic was a big plus. And i went with the black ceramic. That part was easy. But, that could change if the black ceramic, does not look as good as the black aluminum against the dial. Have to wait and see.


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## [email protected] (Dec 1, 2018)

Are we there yet? The wait is killing me!!!


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> Are we there yet? The wait is killing me!!!


I heard on Facebook sometime this month.


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

dickopf said:


> Are there any other watches at this price point that compare in terms of fit and finish?


 I must be getting senile. I forgot to mention H2O. I have their Marlin with the optional 2892 Top Grade Movement. Very impressive quality overall.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

timekepr said:


> Ginault going with the ceramic was a big plus. And i went with the black ceramic. That part was easy. But, that could change if the black ceramic, does not look as good as the black aluminum against the dial. Have to wait and see.


For me I like the ceramic, but the dark blue aluminum bezel with the gilt numerals looks so good. There's no gilt ceramic bezel, and seeming that I want to go with a gilt dial, white letters look very weird on the bezel to contrast IMO. It's why I like the BB58 more than the regular BB.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Anyone else having a hard time deciding between aluminum and ceramic?


Ceramic is fine, not sure if I like the fully indexed insert. It feels busy. It would be nice for Ginault to offer a ceramic bezel similar in style to the one in the current OR. We need pictures...

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> Ceramic is fine, not sure if I like the fully indexed insert. It feels busy. It would be nice for Ginault to offer a ceramic bezel similar in style to the one in the current OR. We need pictures...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


I totally agree. Ceramic all the way providing the fully indexed bezel works with the dial and is not too glossy.

The wait continues...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

My 5513 vs Ginault write up from a couple of years back...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html


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## Time Lane (Jul 2, 2019)

As a slight digression, I've long disliked the WUS "terminology" when using replica, I think it's used incorrectly here. IMHO I think these are the correct words and descriptions:


Counterfeit - an illegal copy of a watch that uses the originals branding and name to deceive.
Replica - a 1:1 copy of an existing watch (e.g. Parnis) but one that uses its own branding.
Homage - a copy of an existing watch, but that has been changed (subtle or not) to recreate the aesthetics of the original (e.g. NTH, Steinhart, Raven).


1 is illegal and morally and ethically wrong. 2 is not illegal but there are strong opinions on the ethical/morals of these. 3 is generally considered OK, but again can cause emotions to run riot; steinhart being a good example. 

As far a Ginault is concerned it falls into 2 (in my view) and I'm perfectly happy with that; it's not illegal and it looks good (......well apart from the lume colour and the red seconds hand). 

I'm prepared to be educated or debate politely this if anyone disagrees!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

longstride said:


> My 5513 vs Ginault write up from a couple of years back...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html


Do you still have the Ginault? Any further opinions?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Time Lane said:


> As a slight digression, I've long disliked the WUS "terminology" when using replica, I think it's used incorrectly here. IMHO I think these are the correct words and descriptions:
> 
> Counterfeit - an illegal copy of a watch that uses the originals branding and name to deceive.
> Replica - a 1:1 copy of an existing watch (e.g. Parnis) but one that uses its own branding.
> ...


IMO, Ginault falls in category 3, since there is no exact Rolex with the Ginault's configuration (e.g. with sword hands).


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

IMHO let's please stay on subject and not dwell (again) into the homage terminology/morality debate. Which I find really tiresome, I must add.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> there is no exact Rolex with the Ginault's configuration (e.g. with sword hands).


Hmmm... I think Her Majesty's Ministry of Defense would beg to disagree with you, sir:


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Dislike it or not, counterfeit and replica are interchangeable terms with those who manufacture and sell illegal copies. Just Google replica watches and see what I mean.


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

Wow! What a fantastic looking watch! I'm a new member but I've been surfing this site on and off for the last three or four months looking at dive watches. I started my first topic the other night asking about titanium divers thinking that's what I need. I kept seeing this thread at the top of the page and honestly I never clicked on it thinking a watch that would stand in for a Rolex surley must cost at least $3,000 or $4,000 dollars. What a delight to find such a quality made watch can be had for $1,200-$1,500! And made here in the USA no less. Count me in! This is the watch I'll give to my 3 yr old in 15 years and enjoy the adventures with it in the years in-between. Keep the reviews coming while I hide money from my wife.


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## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Do you still have the Ginault? Any further opinions?


I do. I think it's a great high quality stand in for a real Rolex.

It is very well built and a great grab and go piece.

It's been to The Middle East and South East Asia a few times, I might let it go but it's also an easy watch to keep.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Hmmm... I think Her Majesty's Ministry of Defense would beg to disagree with you, sir:


True, although I meant in today's catalogue.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Dislike it or not, counterfeit and replica are interchangeable terms with those who manufacture and sell illegal copies. Just Google replica watches and see what I mean.


Totally agree. The only thing I'm saying is that this is a thread where people that own or would like to own a Ginault Ocean Rover gather to discuss news, share photos, etc. Coming again with the homage discussion just gets away from the original topic, and I'm sure there are countless other threads out there to discuss opinions about watch homages.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

I did read #4207.....including the link to the blog...thoroughly enjoyed it....nice work, @Deepdweller......!

I do like the watch, if I would not have enough dive watches (2) i would be very tempted by a Ginault...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I never cared when the rumours were around. To be fair, if this fella was building the best Submariner fake around its even a plus to me, because of two things:

1. He's stopped doing bad stuff and now he's on the legal side. Good boy. 
2. More importantly, and that's a conclusion I couldn't have come across if it wasn't for your long read, he's done his homework. He's found the best suppliers, tested and perfected his supply chain to get the best product possible.

So,thanks for uncovering why Ginault watches are so friggin' good, lol. To me, the watch and the product is what matters and these are really incredibly good watches for that price. Now I know that there's a lot of work behind them, so even better.

Now, judging the owner or the staff behind this watch? Well, I'm sure that we could compile a long list of dirty deeds by the senior managers at Omega, Rolex, JLC, and any major luxury brand. So to me, again, what matters is the watch, not who's behind. After all this is a watch forum, isn't it?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

I washed my hands of Ginault long ago, when it was made clear that open, factual discussion could/would lead to bans. 

I’m reappearing to make clear that my picture was used without permission, by an author who appears to have the goods on Ginault, but also appears to have caught some dolphins in his tuna net. 

Will be curious to see how this all plays out. To paint TC as the author has, and then to trust that any documents TC created are legit, without giving an opportunity confirm/deny, is bad journalism. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

timekepr said:


> I don't have the knowledge that some people here on the forum have. In terms of fit and finish. I would say there are probably watches that compare, to the Ginault at this price point. But unlikely they would better the Ginault at this price point.


Seriously, there are uncountable watches available at $1200 or less, without any of the baggage of false and deceptive marketing, using honestly advertised movements, and original designs.

Check out Sinn, Damasko, Nomos if you want to spend the same money. Check out all the micros if you want to spend less. Ginault makes a nice 1:1 copy, but if it's not a rolex you're after, keep looking.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Ginault makes a nice 1:1 copy, but if it's not a rolex you're after, keep looking.


Exactly this. If you want a Submariner but don't want to spend the ridiculous amounts that grey market dealers charge for one, do not even think twice and get a Ginault. But if what you are looking for is a nice watch for $1,200 or less, well then there's a whole world of good competition out there.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> Exactly this. If you want a Submariner but don't want to spend the ridiculous amounts that grey market dealers charge for one, do not even think twice and get a Ginault. But if what you are looking for is a nice watch for $1,200 or less, well then there's a whole world of good competition out there.


Not exactly my point. I sold my Ginault precisely because I want nothing to do with false and misleading claims. I would not buy a Ginault and in fact sold mine cheap shortly after buying it.

People will do what they want, but I don't want to be connected to Ginault any more than to deepdweller.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Thanks deepdweller for all of your research and a very interesting read. I was skeptical of the TC-Ginault connection before this but I am pretty convinced now. Having this info out there for people who want to be as informed as possible before making a big purchase (which to me $1000+ for a watch is a big purchase). 

That being said I am on the pre-order for the ORII and I don’t have any plans to cancel my order because of this article. I agree with what others have said that I am in favor of a criminal going straight. It seems as though TC has stopped rep sales now that he/Ginault/Chi has a legal avenue to make a living. 

It is a little disturbing that Ginault’s quality came through prototyping though illegal replicas, but at the end of the day Ginault now makes a very high quality, legal product for a good price. 

Since your thread got merged into what is essentially the Ginault owners thread I imagine you will get a lot of similar responses to mine, but I’m sure it will also dissuade other perspective buyers from Ginault. Like I said having more info out there on a product is always better in my opinion and if people don’t feel comfortable buying from a former Rep maker than it is good that your blog post can inform their decision as well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Dislike it or not, counterfeit and replica are interchangeable terms with those who manufacture and sell illegal copies. Just Google replica watches and see what I mean.


Do you have anything you'd like to add to this discussion??...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Cant wait for the OR2 to arrive 

Dont care if he is TC or not. He is going legit now and is making awesome quality watches for a good price.
i would love to own a submariner once, but for now i really dont want a 8K watch on my wrist.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Very well researched we now have answers.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> I read through his blog post, seemingly convincing but any guy with half a brain could smell the fish.
> 
> This is clearly the work done by one of those very niche-market viral marketing firms. I bet you Ginault's website right now is probably having 100 times the visitors looking at their Ocean Rovers.


Then, it would make sense to have the ORII already displayed on the website, but this is not the case.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Then, it would make sense to have the ORII already displayed on the website, but this is not the case.


I think the ORI sales first, then the ORII. Either way, they can't lose


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Was my post removed from this thread?

Why?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> Was my post removed from this thread?
> 
> Why?


Yep It looks that way and I think I know why...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## tonyR90 (Apr 17, 2019)

Learned a lot from reading all this. Thanks!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

docvail said:


> Was my post removed from this thread?
> 
> Why?


Seems that it was not the only post that was removed.

This is getting interesting...


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

They removed the original report post and removed my other posts addressing it.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

tonyR90 said:


> Learned a lot from reading all this. Thanks!


Good thing you already did since WUS just deleted the original post and most of the follow ups.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> Yep It looks that way and I think I know why...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


My understanding is that Ginault is no longer a forum sponsor, and as such, no longer enjoys protection from criticisms.

In the hopes I can figure out what I said which led to my posts removal, I'll try to re-phrase, and keep things as dry as possible.

1. First and foremost, I have nothing to do with TC/Ginault. My name was used fraudulently. It was digitally signed, obviously, not with my actual signature. I had no knowledge of this before today. The residence and PO box addresses used for me were old. I stopped using them 2 years before that 2018 filing. I have a past career as a business owner and licensed financial advisor, so my various home and office addresses of the past are matters of public record, unfortunately.

2. The blog author never contacted me for comment before posting his article, in which he states, unequivocally, that I'm involved.

3. He posted his article anonymously.

4. He also posted links to it here, and on Reddit, and who knows where else - anonymously.

5. I've asked, in the comments under the blog post, and here, for the author to edit the article, adding a very clear disclaimer that the connection between me and TC/Ginault is ALLEGED, and that I've denied any involvement, which I do, publicly, and vehemently.

6. I've been in touch with legal counsel. There will be a cease & desist letter sent to the blog's author, and we'll be contacting the state of WY to have the record corrected, or the filing voided.

Journalistic integrity would demand that he contact me before besmirching me and my business as he has. That he didn't do that, I'm willing to call a rookie mistake, if a bold retraction is posted, and the article is appropriately edited.

If that doesn't happen, then I hope anyone/everyone can see that the article was intended to not just damage Ginault, but also me and my business, for reasons we can only imagine.

Bottom line - I don't want any more to do with this Ginault mess than I did two years ago, when I did my best to gracefully back out of this $hlt-show, and wished them well in their business. I have nothing to do with TC/Ginault. My name was used fraudulently.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

docvail said:


> My understanding is that Ginault is no longer a forum sponsor, and as such, no longer enjoys protection from criticisms.
> 
> In the hopes I can figure out what I said which led to my posts removal, I'll try to re-phrase, and keep things as dry as possible.
> 
> ...


It seems obvious that Doc's name is used unwillingly filings don't use online aliases or former addresses. It seemed odd and tacked on. Good luck getting this straighten out.

Doc's brand is the total opposite of the things in this blog post he is extremely transparent about his whole process nothing for him to hide it why he has so many fans


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

docvail said:


> My understanding is that Ginault is no longer a forum sponsor, and as such, no longer enjoys protection from criticisms.
> 
> In the hopes I can figure out what I said which led to my posts removal, I'll try to re-phrase, and keep things as dry as possible.
> 
> ...


If WUS deletes this again then its hard to draw any other conclusion than they are complicit in all of this.


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## ManOnTime (Aug 26, 2015)

docvail said:


> My understanding is that Ginault is no longer a forum sponsor, and as such, no longer enjoys protection from criticisms.
> 
> In the hopes I can figure out what I said which led to my posts removal, I'll try to re-phrase, and keep things as dry as possible.
> 
> ...





jarlaxle said:


> If WUS deletes this again then its hard to draw any other conclusion than they are complicit in all of this.


Agreed.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

ManOnTime said:


> Agreed.


Ssomethings not right. Enough posts (including the original article) have already been deleted to raise suspicion

and we've still not heard from the forum moderator, you know... the one who was mentioned in the article... the one who was active here just yesterday....

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

LowIQ said:


> I did read #4207.....including the link to the blog...thoroughly enjoyed it....nice work, @Deepdweller......!
> 
> I do like the watch, if I would not have enough dive watches (2) i would be very tempted by a Ginault...


Goodness me, I am self referencing myself....or something like that....my post never had this number...#4027 was somebody elses post...mine was a higher number.......now mine is #4027...

If this could be explained by an Administrator I would be gratefull....

There is a slight chance that I had a glass of wine too many...a slight one, normally I can hold my drink....and I can safely say that I did not use any other drugs...

Anyway, nice watch.....I could feel tempted...


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## Tjcdas (Mar 12, 2018)

.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Before this gets out of hand, my assumption is that the links to the article were removed because the article mentions a forum moderator.

I have no issue with that. I'd do the same.

I assume all posts quoting the post with the links would likewise be removed. Again, that makes sense. 

It also seems the blogger's been banned from WUS. I honestly haven't even had enough time to read the article in full, to know if that was in response to something said about WUS in the article, or just because it mentions a forum moderator, so I can't say if that was a measured response or not.

My earlier post didn't quote the post with the link, as far as I can remember. I'm pretty sure I quoted a later post by the blog author. 

This is why I don't understand why my post was removed. I don't know what rule it violated, and it doesn't seem to fall under the heading of doing the right thing for the forum and the moderator mentioned.

I don't have any connection to the moderator named, other than meeting him once or twice. We're connected on FB, but that's all. I haven't been a forum sponsor in years. I just run my business, no secret connections or anything like that. 

I can't imagine the forum's ownership would be involved in some sort of fraud, nor can I understand why they'd try to cover it up. Likewise, I'd be shocked to learn anyone on the admin or mod team was involved. I don't think it's fair or even reasonable to jump to that conclusion.

My best guess is someone is acting swiftly in defense of the forum and the moderator named, and some posts got deleted like collateral damage. 

My only hope is that I can at least defend my own name, anywhere this is being discussed, without being censored unjustly or banned. 


Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

Tjcdas said:


> What was the business relationship 2 years ago,where you needed to back out of the sh.. zone?


There was never any connection.

My name and business have been mentioned in Ginault threads repeatedly. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see the exchanges.

This was what I hoped would be my last word about Ginault:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=36778106

Tapatalk is all natural. Wash in cold water and tumble dry on low heat. Some talk shrinking may occur.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

I suspect if you dig deep enough, you'd find that a lot of homage-makers have ties to the counterfeit black market. That the person behind Ginault may or may not have been dealing in fakes in the past doesn't bother me nearly as much as that person apparently filing fraudulent documents, forging signatures of upstanding forum members without their knowledge or consent, as part of their fraud. 

Additionally, I can pretty much guarantee that the International Precision, Inc. incorporated in Wyoming is in no way affiliated with the one in California that does a lot of defense work. The latter established their CAGE code in 1979, and have been around for far longer than TC was in the game. Potentially longer than he's been alive There would also be no reason for them to also incorporate in WY. More likely, whomever is behind all of this "borrowed" the name and got it incorporated somewhere as part of the charade, hoping no one would look beyond the name and confuse the two companies.

As for the blog post, the other parties named should have been contacted for comment prior to publishing their names or implicating their involvement. That a forum handle rather than legal name would be used on an official document makes it pretty clear that something is amiss (and that Wyoming apparently has lax standards and checks on business filings). The blog post should be updated immediately to reflect that those named aren't associated. You should have also contacted the real International Precision to determine whether or not they actually are affiliated with the company in Wyoming before implicating them in this scam. Implications that they may be involved in illegal counterfeiting activities could cost them their ability to perform work on government contracts, costing innocent small business owners and their employees their livelihoods.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MX793 said:


> I suspect if you dig deep enough, you'd find that a lot of homage-makers have ties to the counterfeit black market. That the person behind Ginault may or may not have been dealing in fakes in the past doesn't bother me nearly as much as that person apparently filing fraudulent documents, forging signatures of upstanding forum members without their knowledge or consent, as part of their fraud. Additionally, I can pretty much guarantee that the International Precision, Inc. incorporated in Wyoming is in no way affiliated with the one in California that does a lot of defense work. The latter established their CAGE code in 1979, and have been around for far longer than TC was in the game. Potentially longer than he's been alive There would also be no reason for them to also incorporate in WY. More likely, whomever is behind all of this "borrowed" the name and got it incorporated somewhere as part of the charade, hoping no one would look beyond the name and confuse the two companies.
> 
> As for the blog post, the other parties named should have been contacted for comment prior to publishing their names or implicating their involvement. That a forum handle rather than legal name would be used on an official document makes it pretty clear that something is amiss (and that Wyoming apparently has lax standards and checks on business filings). The blog post should be updated immediately to reflect that those named aren't associated. You should have also contacted the real International Precision to determine whether or not they actually are affiliated with the company in Wyoming before implicating them in this scam. Implications that they may be involved in illegal counterfeiting activities could cost them their ability to perform work on government contracts, costing innocent small business owners and their employees their livelihoods.


I think the word that's missing in your post (which I agree) is libel.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

LowIQ said:


> Goodness me, I am self referencing myself....or something like that....my post never had this number...#4027 was somebody elses post...mine was a higher number.......now mine is #4027...
> 
> If this could be explained by an Administrator I would be gratefull....
> 
> ...


The original post was #4207 - just a coincidence that yours referencing it wound up being #4207 after it was removed.

Sent from my LG-H831 using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Time for pics!


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> I think the word that's missing in your post (which I agree) is libel.


I'm not sure anything in that blog post could be legally considered libel. The author clearly cited public records that anyone could look up. While the names on those records should raise a flag (forum handle instead of legal name?), I don't think any court would find the author taking those documents at face value to be acting with malice or even negligence in assuming they were legitimate. However, any good journalist would reach out to other names involved to, if nothing else, get a more complete story. Think of what being able to add that "forged signatures were used on business filings" would have added to this story? Shoddy journalism, but not necessarily libel.

Then again, much of what is put out by "professionals" is shoddy and poorly fact checked these days. They at least retract statements and publish apologies when their poor fact checking is brought to light.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MX793 said:


> I'm not sure anything in that blog post could be legally considered libel. The author clearly cited public records that anyone could look up. While the names on those records should raise a flag (forum handle instead of legal name?), I don't think any court would find the author taking those documents at face value to be acting with malice or even negligence in assuming they were legitimate. However, any good journalist would reach out to other names involved to, if nothing else, get a more complete story. Think of what being able to add that "forged signatures were used on business filings" would have added to this story? Shoddy journalism, but not necessarily libel.
> 
> Then again, much of what is put out by "professionals" is shoddy and poorly fact checked these days. They at least retract statements and publish apologies when their poor fact checking is brought to light.


What about spreading news passing them as facts, based on fabricated pseudo evidence, with the knowledge that they would hurt others people's business, without any kind of fact-checking?

Honestly, how do we know that those names and signatures weren't in fact forged by this same fella? He seems to crave attention and has a particular vendetta going on against fake watches. To be fair, if there's one side that looks shady to me in this movie that's him. Maybe he bought a Rolex and turned out to be a fake, or who knows.

One thing I do know is my Ginault is a great watch, with countless hours of craftsmanship behind, and runs +1s/d after two years. That is a fact. All the other stuff is just blah blah blah.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Darwin said:


> The original post was #4207 - just a coincidence that yours referencing it wound up being #4207 after it was removed.


You are putting my mind at rest......it's like watching a spy movie...is @ Deepdweller on the run....? I heard his account has been cancelled...


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## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> One thing I do know is my Ginault is a great watch, with countless hours of craftsmanship behind, and runs +1s/d after two years. That is a fact. All the other stuff is just blah blah blah.


Not sure I agree here. I would definitely second guess a purchase from a company if it was known that the owner had a hand in a separate company making replicas.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Darwin said:


> The original post was #4207 - just a coincidence that yours referencing it wound up being #4207 after it was removed.


You are putting my mind at rest......it's like watching a spy movie...is @ Deepdweller on the run....? I heard his account has been cancelled...

Somebody further up in the thread had the suspicion that it is a publicity stunt, well, I feel tempted to get one of these Ginaults...so, if it is, it's quite sucessfull....


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

LowIQ said:


> You are putting my mind at rest......it's like watching a spy movie...is @ Deepdweller on the run....? I heard his account has been cancelled...
> 
> Somebody further up in the thread had the suspicion that it is a publicity stunt, well, I feel tempted to get one of these Ginaults...so, if it is, it's quite sucessfull....


Yep apparently his account was cancelled a few minutes after posting

He also quoted this from our watch making friend which pretty much sums things up for me.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> :snip:
> 
> One thing I do know is my Ginault is a great watch, with countless hours of craftsmanship behind, and runs +1s/d after two years. That is a fact. All the other stuff is just blah blah blah.


Your "blah blah blah" is another man's dishonest and illegal (under US law if not elsewhere) conduct. You don't have to care. But those of us who do care, have every right to express it here so long as we deal in verifiable facts.

It's often said on WUS: "don't buy the watch, buy the seller."

Well, deepdweller made a lot of mistakes in his blog, but tying Ginault to TC isn't one of them if all those pictures are legit. So, buy what you like, but a forum for discussing watches ought to permit discussion of the man behind the watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

As I stated in this thread (or maybe another thread about this crook), I’m surprised threads about this brand are allowed to exist on this forum. The man and company are clearly shady and IMO it looks bad allowing them to be discussed


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

(Insert Popcorn Here)


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

City74 said:


> As I stated in this thread (or maybe another thread about this crook), I'm surprised threads about this brand are allowed to exist on this forum. The man and company are clearly shady and IMO it looks bad allowing them to be discussed


Why does it look bad? It's a watch forum. Topics are discussed, information/opinions are shared. Anyone new to the brand doing research now has all the info they need to make a decision that's best for them. It's a win win.

What looks bad is deleting posts...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Why does it look bad? It's a watch forum. Topics are discussed, information/opinions are shared. Anyone new to the brand doing research now has all the info they need to make a decision that's best for them. It's a win win.
> 
> What looks bad is deleting posts...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


On this forum "fakes" aren't discussed. To me, his brand is owned by a fake and makes fakes. So with that being said, I think it looks bad for these brands to be discussed. It takes away from those who make original designs and the work they put into making a true and honest product like NTH or Scurfa etc


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

City74 said:


> On this forum "fakes" aren't discussed. To me, his brand is owned by a fake and makes fakes. So with that being said, I think it looks bad for these brands to be discussed. It takes away from those who make original designs and the work they put into making a true and honest product like NTH or Scurfa etc


I don't see how discussing this takes anything away from any other watch brand. this is one small thread which exists on a huge platform with thousands of others with more being created as we speak.

if we're going by the article the journalist has simply uncovered the mans past activities, there's no evidence to say that the brand itself is illegal. Immoral in some ways yes but not illegal.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Awesom-O 4000 (Sep 20, 2018)

Time Lane said:


> As a slight digression, I've long disliked the WUS "terminology" when using replica, I think it's used incorrectly here. IMHO I think these are the correct words and descriptions:
> 
> Counterfeit - an illegal copy of a watch that uses the originals branding and name to deceive.
> Replica - a 1:1 copy of an existing watch (e.g. Parnis) but one that uses its own branding.
> ...


Here's my personal definition. If the vast majority of people could not differentiate your watch from the well known brand on which it is based, from a normal viewing distance of let's say 5 feet, then it's a fake.

Unless you get up very close to these "homages," close enough to read the text and examine the details, they just look like Rolexes. Who gets close enough to read the text on your watch?

The only debate is how fake your fake watch is. So maybe the guy made fake Rolexes in the past. Guess what? He makes fakes now too.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

City74 said:


> On this forum "fakes" aren't discussed. To me, his brand is owned by a fake and makes fakes. So with that being said, I think it looks bad for these brands to be discussed. It takes away from those who make original designs and the work they put into making a true and honest product like NTH or Scurfa etc


You are obviously biased, brands like NTH, Scurfa and many others are surfing on known submariner DNA, Ginault has a top quality product here, is it why they have a few but very active detractors when other brands are left alone doing Submariner homages.

I vote for brands making Submariner homages with my wallet, thank you Silver and Ginault!


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## horhay86 (Jun 4, 2018)

Awesom-O 4000 said:


> Here's my personal definition. If the vast majority of people could not differentiate your watch from the well known brand on which it is based, from a normal viewing distance of let's say 5 feet, then it's a fake.
> 
> Unless you get up very close to these "homages," close enough to read the text and examine the details, they just look like Rolexes. Who gets close enough to read the text on your watch?
> 
> The only debate is how fake your fake watch is. So maybe the guy made fake Rolexes in the past. Guess what? He makes fakes now too.


The vast majority of people don't care what you are wearing let alone know the difference between a Casio Duro , Ginault or a Submariner. I'd be surprise if people even know what a Submariner is aside from the watch community (very few of us). 
I don't buy this argument because people just don't care. People worry too much about what others think when in reality nobody pays attention.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

kelt said:


> You are obviously biased, brands like NTH, Scurfa and many others are surfing on known submariner DNA, Ginault has a top quality product here, is it why they have a few but very active detractors when other brands are left alone doing Submariner homages.
> 
> I vote for brands making Submariner homages with my wallet, thank you Silver and Ginault!


The issue never was about homaging. It always was about making reps in past and lying about provenance in the present. You defended them before, you defend them now. Big whoop.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

kelt said:


> You are obviously biased, brands like NTH, Scurfa and many others are surfing on known submariner DNA, Ginault has a top quality product here, is it why they have a few but very active detractors when other brands are left alone doing Submariner homages.
> 
> I vote for brands making Submariner homages with my wallet, thank you Silver and Ginault!


You do realize the Sub is actually a homage also don't you? I'm always stunned when people think the Sub was the first dive watch. It wasn't. Most popular? Sure. Not first. It's just the most faked, including the Silver, Ginault, Squale and many many others. I wouldn't own any of them


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## waterdude (Apr 19, 2012)

When you cross the underground replica syndicate, you get your username registered as an officer of a fictitious company. Heed the warning. ****e is real deal. It ain’t safe no more!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

Dude probably would have been well received if he just told the truth from the get go. But the extent of the lies is mind blowing. At this point, I have no reason to believe that any portion of these watches is manufactured or even assembled in the US.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

I feel like I should be surprised that the folks I remember vehemently defending the company against the "slanderous" and "absurd" accusations that they were one and the same in the past are STILL saying that they'll "vote with their wallets" once the truth has come out, and that truth includes the fact that the man (if we can really call him that) behind Ginault listed a moderator of this forum AND a respected Microbrand owner as officers of his company when thats a far cry from the truth, but somehow I'm not.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

For a couple years I have wanted to post the following in this thread, but there wasn't concrete evidence so I just stayed away.

It is *incredibly* difficult _and_ expensive to manufacture a movement - even a clone movement - in the US starting from nothing. Ginault's claims defy belief based on my limited knowledge of the watch industry. Sorry, it's just not possible.​
Like so many other things (usually in politics) it's not the crime but the cover up. If these were just sold as high quality homage clones sourcing parts from Asia - which is what they are - there never would have been an issue.


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

mike120 said:


> I feel like I should be surprised that the folks I remember vehemently defending the company against the "slanderous" and "absurd" accusations that they were one and the same in the past are STILL saying that they'll "vote with their wallets" once the truth has come out, and that truth includes the fact that the man (if we can really call him that) behind Ginault listed a moderator of this forum AND a respected Microbrand owner as officers of his company when thats a far cry from the truth, but somehow I'm not.


That's my biggest issue here. The watch is an homage, whatever. If he's trying to go legit, fine. But in trying to go straight, he's actively doing shady things like that, making any attempt at legitimacy null and void.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

pinkybrain said:


> For a couple years I have wanted to post the following on this thread, but there wasn't concrete evidence so I just stayed away.
> 
> It is *incredibly* difficult and expensive to produce a movement - even a clone movement - in the US starting from nothing. Ginault's claims defied belief based on my limited knowledge of the watch industry.
> 
> Like so many other things, particularly in politics, it's not the crime but the cover up. If these were just sold as high quality homage clones sourcing parts from Asia - which is what they are - there never would have been an issue.


They'd have sold a ton of them had they been honest. But honesty isnt really a switch to turn on and off. And, not surprisingly, the defenders of this business don't care about honesty. Never did.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karlisnet (Feb 20, 2016)

My previous and only post on this topic has been deleted. 

I basically said I support journalism to undercover counterfeit activities. I said values drive actions. I said the report of deepdweller was in public forum, and when got traction was moved here first, and then deleted.

I thought WUS, us, don’t accept counterfeits. We don’t even talk about them. When there is solid information linking a brand with these activities -a brand who sponsors WUS-, the last you expect is a moderator deleting the post -and other members’ posts related-. 

Of course, you can delete my post again. Cheers.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Karlisnet said:


> My previous and only post on this topic has been deleted.
> 
> I basically said I support journalism to undercover counterfeit activities. I said values drive actions. I said the report of deepdweller was in public forum, and when got traction was moved here first, and then deleted.
> 
> ...


Because the post needs to be spread


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

horhay86 said:


> The vast majority of people don't care what you are wearing let alone know the difference between a Casio Duro , Ginault or a Submariner. I'd be surprise if people even know what a Submariner is aside from the watch community (very few of us).
> I don't buy this argument because people just don't care. People worry too much about what others think when in reality nobody pays attention.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk












I work in a bicycle shop and was wearing this at work on Tuesday. I commented how sweet a customer's Omega PO Chrono on black rubber was. He liked my Submariner!! 
SO YES.... *The vast majority of people don't care what you are wearing let alone know the difference between a Casio Duro , Ginault or a Submariner.*


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Calling the Ginault OR a fake/counterfeit Rolex is laughable. 

I judge the watch on its quality, accuracy, F&F, not on brand recognition. It ticks all those boxes for me, after 2.5 years and 2 examples.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Karlisnet said:


> My previous and only post on this topic has been deleted.
> 
> I basically said I support journalism to undercover counterfeit activities. I said values drive actions. I said the report of deepdweller was in public forum, and when got traction was moved here first, and then deleted.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly I think they owe us an explanation...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> My thoughts exactly I think they owe us an explanation...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


The posts where I pointed out that "both" companies used an X-T1 with a Zeiss 50mm macro years ago aren't here anymore. The only explanation I got was "Shut up or get banned."


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## docvail (Oct 24, 2012)

I'll chime in again, with what I think is the reason why the links were removed, and the blogger banned.

He doxxed me, and to some extent, CMSgtBo, though I think the address used wasn't Bo's, but TC's.

In my case, the address posted was my actual residential address at one time. That's not cool, and I think forum admins did the right thing in removing links to the article.

The article, last I looked (about 20 minutes ago) is still not edited. That info is still out there. That's potentially dangerous. There's a family with kids living at that address now. Even if it was still my home, I wouldn't want my address posted like that.

I run a business. I've sold a few thousand watches. Some small percentage of customers are going to be whack-jobs, which is why I use a PO Box, not my home address, when doing business.

I can't speak for the forum's ownership, admins, or mods. I don't know what their feelings are about discussion of all this. I hope they'll let me continue to defend my own reputation. Logically, I'd think they'd be okay with some discussion about the exposure of a company engaged in making fakes, though the rules might prohibit even that.


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Calling the Ginault OR a fake/counterfeit Rolex is laughable.
> 
> I judge the watch on its quality, accuracy, F&F, not on brand recognition. It ticks all those boxes for me, after 2.5 years and 2 examples.


Nobody's calling the OR a fake Rolex, they're saying Ginault used to produce fakes and is now producing the OR, using the same manufacturer, same movement, etc just with the Ginault branding.

There's endless proof in the article. Not sure if you read it.


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## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Calling the Ginault OR a fake/counterfeit Rolex is laughable.
> 
> I judge the watch on its quality, accuracy, F&F, not on brand recognition. It ticks all those boxes for me, after 2.5 years and 2 examples.


Did you even read that article.........? You can't have and still be happy to have given them money


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mike120 said:


> Did you even read that article.........? You can't have and still be happy to have given them money


Do you check or even care about the ethics credentials of every company you buy products from? There are plenty of dubious oil, sportswear, tech etc companies. If the people behind Ginault are choosing a more ethical path then kudos to them. Doesn't detract from the quality of the product and their customer service, which while sometimes slow, has always come through.


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## lab-guy (Jan 6, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Do you check or even care about the ethics credentials of every company you buy products from? There are plenty of dubious oil, sportswear, tech etc companies. If the people behind Ginault are choosing a more ethical path then kudos to them. Doesn't detract from the quality of the product and their customer service, which while sometimes slow, has always come through.


<whoosh >

I wouldn't be caught dead with a knock-off like that.


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## lab-guy (Jan 6, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Do you check or even care about the ethics credentials of every company you buy products from? There are plenty of dubious oil, sportswear, tech etc companies. If the people behind Ginault are choosing a more ethical path then kudos to them. Doesn't detract from the quality of the product and their customer service, which while sometimes slow, has always come through.


<whoosh >

I wouldn't be caught dead with a knock-off like that.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DiegoCastellanos said:


> Nobody's calling the OR a fake Rolex, they're saying Ginault used to produce fakes and is now producing the OR, using the same manufacturer, same movement, etc just with the Ginault branding.
> 
> There's endless proof in the article. Not sure if you read it.


I was taking exception to the comment that unless you can differentiate a Rolex from another watch at 5 ft away then its a fake


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

docvail said:


> I'll chime in again, with what I think is the reason why the links were removed, and the blogger banned.
> 
> He doxxed me, and to some extent, CMSgtBo, though I think the address used wasn't Bo's, but TC's.
> 
> ...


I hear you... they have every right to remove the article post and any posts referencing it but the info is out there now and weather its true or not there's still a few unanswered questions surrounding WUS involvement.

At a time when the moderator(s) should be speaking up or letting us discuss this freely they've decided to stay quiet, change forum handles and delete posts. I'm not saying they're involved in this but this along with their reluctance to address the issue swiftly (like you did) doesn't look good for them right now...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

lab-guy said:


> <whoosh >
> 
> I wouldn't be caught dead with a knock-off like that.


I've heard you the first time...


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## Fomenko (Feb 27, 2012)

By the way, were there any posts trashing Ginault deleted? Don’t think so...


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> mike120 said:
> 
> 
> > Did you even read that article.........? You can't have and still be happy to have given them money
> ...


But they're not taking an ethical path. They basically forged docvail's name and information in their documents.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Read the blog post. It may be a fine product standing on its own, but it is now indisputable that the owner is a sociopath-level liar that has intentionally deceived the WIS community. I'm curious if the name Ginault is something Tsung Chi saw in passing or if it's just a made up 'European' sounding name, like his other aliases.



Porsche993 said:


> Calling the Ginault OR a fake/counterfeit Rolex is laughable.
> 
> I judge the watch on its quality, accuracy, F&F, not on brand recognition. It ticks all those boxes for me, after 2.5 years and 2 examples.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

Read the whole thread, ordered the ORII, and read the blog. 
Wow, some really interesting things noted here. 
Would it be safe to assume that Ginault can't comment without incriminating themselves? 

What does this mean to all of us who have paid deposits? 

Scary stuff indeed.


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

Read the whole thread, ordered the ORII, and read the blog. 
Wow, some really interesting things noted here. 
Would it be safe to assume that Ginault can't comment without incriminating themselves? 

What does this mean to all of us who have paid deposits? 

Scary stuff indeed.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

dickopf said:


> Read the whole thread, ordered the ORII, and read the blog.
> Wow, some really interesting things noted here.
> Would it be safe to assume that Ginault can't comment without incriminating themselves?
> 
> ...


Probably, it means they'll send you a watch made by a guy whose ethics are perfectly acceptable to those who don't care about ethics, if the posts on this thread are any indication.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

I smell poop


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Fomenko said:


> By the way, were there any posts trashing Ginault deleted? Don't think so...


There were many that were deleted, but that goes back a couple years.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

dickopf said:


> Read the whole thread, ordered the ORII, and read the blog.
> Wow, some really interesting things noted here.
> Would it be safe to assume that Ginault can't comment without incriminating themselves?
> 
> ...


I think you'll be perfectly fine receiving a refund if that's what you desire. Despite the shadiness he usually has decent customer service.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

It looks like the blog has been taken down by Wordpress for a terms of service violation.

I appreciated the investigatory work, but it was really bad form for the author to not reach out to the mentioned parties before publishing.


----------



## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

3005 said:


> It looks like the blog has been taken down by Wordpress for a terms of service violation.
> 
> I appreciated the investigatory work, but it was really bad form for the author to not reach out to the mentioned parties before publishing.


Would Ginault response to this? I'm sure many of us who ordered the OR2 are a little anxious about what's gonna happen after this.


----------



## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

This whole development is especially interesting given Ginault's recent doubling down on the "made in America" claim on their Instagram.


----------



## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

3005 said:


> It looks like the blog has been taken down by Wordpress for a terms of service violation.
> 
> I appreciated the investigatory work, but it was really bad form for the author to not reach out to the mentioned parties before publishing.


I'm guessing the doxxing was the main issue anywhere the blog was posted.


----------



## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

3005 said:


> This whole development is especially interesting given Ginault's recent doubling down on the "made in America" claim on their Instagram.
> 
> View attachment 14283349
> 
> ...


I mean, the case, bezel, etc. Could very well be made in America. Which probably means his fakes were also made here.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ah, the good old WUS community, judging other people's watches from their high horse since the 2000s...


----------



## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

DiegoCastellanos said:


> I mean, the case, bezel, etc. Could very well be made in America. Which probably means his fakes were also made here.


AFAIK the FTC has pretty strict requirements for a product to be considered "Made in the USA" and the blog post seems to cast some doubt on Ginault meeting those requirements.

From the FTC:

_The product's final assembly or processing must take place in the U.S. The Commission then considers other factors, including how much of the product's total manufacturing costs can be assigned to U.S. parts and processing, and how far removed any foreign content is from the finished product. In some instances, only a small portion of the total manufacturing costs are attributable to foreign processing, but that processing represents a significant amount of the product's overall processing. The same could be true for some foreign parts. In these cases, the foreign content (processing or parts) is more than negligible, and, as a result, unqualified claims are inappropriate._


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Please let us know once your crusader levels have descended into a normal rate, so we can keep talking about our watches again without someone coming to tell us what should we wear ot not wear. Thanks!


----------



## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Please let us know once your crusader levels have descended into a normal rate, so we can keep talking about our watches again without someone coming to tell us what should we wear ot not wear. Thanks!


No one is telling you what or what not to wear. You may not care about the recent claims, and that's your prerogative, but many of us do-including former and prospective purchasers.


----------



## mike120 (Aug 1, 2010)

3005 said:


> This whole development is especially interesting given Ginault's recent doubling down on the "made in America" claim on their Instagram.
> 
> View attachment 14283349
> 
> ...


Yikes..... If there are companies who are participating in the manufacturing of components for fake watches located in the US I can't see that ending well for those folks. Seems like Rolex would put the kibosh on that pretty quickly.


----------



## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

3005 said:


> DiegoCastellanos said:
> 
> 
> > I mean, the case, bezel, etc. Could very well be made in America. Which probably means his fakes were also made here.
> ...


They claim hand built in America, with specific components made in usa. Parts that seem to have been made before they became Ginault.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

City74 said:


> You do realize the Sub is actually a homage also don't you? I'm always stunned when people think the Sub was the first dive watch. It wasn't. Most popular? Sure. Not first. It's just the most faked, including the Silver, Ginault, Squale and many many others. I wouldn't own any of them


I have been interested in dive watches since the mid sixties, not many brands making dive watches then! I knew them all on sight then, only one design attracted me.
I love the design of the four digit Submariner, used one as work watch my whole career as commercial diver for the offshore oil industry, I dislike very much the design changes seen in the modern Rolex Submariner. the brands making homage watches to the old Rolex design are following Rolex lead (Tudor was created by Rolex to sell cheaper homages in Rolex cases). I like the recent switch of Tudor from making only homages


----------



## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

longstride said:


> My 5513 vs Ginault write up from a couple of years back...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/rolex-5513-sub-ginault-ocean-rover-sub-comparo-3964722.html


I've read it before, it's still a pleasure to read today.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Wow I usually log in to to this thread to find one or two new posts a week and to my delight there are pages and pages of new posts only to be totally disappointed to find the same old posts that were sooooooooooo common yonks ago.

I guess I'm a simple man who likes watches and wristies so much more than a bunch of whiny girls.

Now I'll go and try the vacuum cleaner forum and see if there are posts about that new company who is blatantly making counterfeit Hoovers.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Manufacture movements made in the USA? Tsung Chi, aka Thomas Caldwell, aka Mr. Ginault, aka some fake German sounding name and the many other fake names he's used has lied about everything. That much is established. That means all of Ginault's claims are worthless. So we really know nothing about how or where the watches are made, and where parts were sourced. We can independently assess the quality of the watch - and they seem pretty good for the price - but that's about it. Ginault saying his watches are made in the US now carries about as much weight as Michael Cohen telling you he knows where they keep the alien spaceships in Area 51. Many things are possible - perhaps many Ginault parts were made in the US and perhaps I could correctly guess how many flying saucers the government has - but Tsung Chi's words mean nothing. 

I'm not judging the watch, but I am judging the conman who made them. Lying sociopaths can be industrious, clever, and yes, they can make great things, but they're still lying sociopaths.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

If I was truly worried about people making untrue statements and if it really wanted to take a stand against false claims I would never be able to vote in a local, state or federal election again.


----------



## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

You're right, but if everyone was as slimy as politicians the world couldn't function. Let's not lower our standards. Maybe Tsung Chi has a career in politics. He's shrewd, ambitions, and a great liar.



59er said:


> If I was truly worried about people making untrue statements and if it really wanted to take a stand against false claims I would never be able to vote in a local, state or federal election again.


----------



## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

I know there never was any blog post or write-up about any of the things you gents are discussing here today. But let's say hypothetically that there was one at one point......well maybe now it has vanished......its gone......no longer exists.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

yinzburgher said:


> I know there never was any blog post or write-up about any of the things you gents are discussing here today. But let's say hypothetically that there was one at one point......well maybe now it has vanished......its gone......no longer exists.


I was at work when I saw that post. Since it was a long read, I saved it as pdf to read it at home.

Wondering now if this is the only existing copy and if I should be worried about having done so.


----------



## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

Lucky for you said document never actually existed (in this universe....but who knows about out there in the multiverse...) and your real name isn't Garbanzo *****......or is it......GARBANZO!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

yinzburgher said:


> Lucky for you said document never actually existed (in this universe....but who knows about out there in the multiverse...) and your real name isn't Garbanzo *****......or is it......GARBANZO!


He who cannot be named knows our real names and home addresses. :-O


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

dickopf said:


> Read the whole thread, ordered the ORII, and read the blog.
> Wow, some really interesting things noted here.
> Would it be safe to assume that Ginault can't comment without incriminating themselves?
> 
> ...


Has anyone on here reached out to John over the last 24 hours and got a response??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Smpfan2531 (Jul 28, 2013)

Normally only reading here I think I have to say something about TC. I had several personal contacts with Thomas in the past and bought some parts from him. These parts always were sent from US not from far east. Parts were made of very high quality. 
And Thomas spoke english very well. So I guess he is american not chinese. 
But AFAIK be travelled to China or HK many times sourcing the best availible rep parts. And those parts were really top notch. 

There are some opinions in the rep forums that TC parts are very similar to Ginault parts but NOT identical. 

TC told several times that he stopped replica business because of problems in his family. And he hardly denies until today any business activities with Ginault. 


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

I've actually reached out to John and this is his reply.


Ye we read his post. His claims are utterly untrue and largely fabricated, damages are done. 

Anyone can use any (pseudo) name to purchase/register a domain. Anyone can use any name to register companies. Anyone with photoshop skills can fake those picture evidence. Notice how he conveniently left out the original sources on the most important pictures. Why? 

We strongly urge the community to not fall for this smear campaign. This attack is obviously long-planned. 

90% of the ORII parts are completed, and we are waiting on the final few moving parts to arrive. We should be able to show some pictures of the ORII in a month plus.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Looking forward to seeing the OR2 for sure.


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

acheongtk said:


> I've actually reached out to John and this is his reply.
> 
> Ye we read his post. His claims are utterly untrue and largely fabricated, damages are done.
> 
> ...


That blog post had much more concrete evidence pointing against Ginault than Ginault has ever offered supporting their own claims. It's incredibly obvious what the truth is. Of course Ginault will deny it, why wouldn't they?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

acheongtk said:


> I've actually reached out to John and this is his reply.
> 
> Ye we read his post. His claims are utterly untrue and largely fabricated, damages are done.
> 
> ...


Awesome, Good to know he's still active and it's not affected progress.

Sounds like he's waiting on the bezels otherwise he would have been able to show us pictures by now.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

There is a Reddit discussion about it:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watches/comments/c8mh7r


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

There are tons of other comparison pics in the blog.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

yep we've all seen the evidence and are not disputing the facts.

it's more a discussion of people's feelings toward the situation 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Maithree (Jan 17, 2013)

54 second mark

"....now when John contacted me, John the guy that owns Ginault......

....*he contacted me and asked me if I'd be interested in receiving one and doing a comparison to the real kermit.*

Now the original kind of premise of this video was to highlight was to how close this is to the kermit or to do a comparison between the two, but for me *there feels something weird about that.* I think I've already gone over the idea of homage is being OK and acceptable watches to have but to compare it to the real thing with the idea of highlighting how closest is that kind of feels a bit there's something weird about this um it doesn't sit right with me.... "

The reviewer also goes on to talk about how there is comment in the watch circles that it was possible the person(s) that ran Ginault were also in the replica business.






Now, an American company manufacturing and hand assembling it's own movement from an ETA design is possible. Not probable. But possible.

But too many things don't add up.

There are other copy makers out there. MK II being a case in point, but Bill Yao doesn't make his own movements. And the cost of the watches is quite a bit more. Compared to the assembled stuff (outside the USI think?) which is a lot cheaper.


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## Maithree (Jan 17, 2013)

Double post.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I'll have to give this thread a miss for awhile so all of the expert detectives and moral evangelists can get this junk out of their systems.

I'll be back when we get back to being watch enthusiasts.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

59er said:


> I'll have to give this thread a miss for awhile so all of the expert detectives and moral evangelists can get this junk out of their systems.
> 
> I'll be back when we get back to being watch enthusiasts.


Many "watch enthusiasts" break out the pitchforks at the slightest hint of a missed deadline or lack of response to an email when it's a brand new company doing a kickstarter sale. Yet you want to minimize a massive fraud, call it "junk" and just "get back to business"? (Yes, fraud. Stolen identities on corporate filings, multiple aliases, and, likely, all claims of USA manufacturing and assembly bogus.)


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

59er said:


> I'll have to give this thread a miss for awhile so all of the expert detectives and moral evangelists can get this junk out of their systems.
> 
> I'll be back when we get back to being watch enthusiasts.


Free advice: if you're at a revival and, when looking around, you can't pick out the sucker in the crowd, keep your wallet in your pocket.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

92gli said:


> Many "watch enthusiasts" break out the pitchforks at the slightest hint of a missed deadline or lack of response to an email when it's a brand new company doing a kickstarter sale. Yet you want to minimize a massive fraud, call it "junk" and just "get back to business"? (Yes, fraud. Stolen identities on corporate filings, multiple aliases, and, likely, all claims of USA manufacturing and assembly bogus.)


Yes. Let's get some ORII pics up in here.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mike120 said:


> Yikes..... If there are companies who are participating in the manufacturing of components for fake watches located in the US I can't see that ending well for those folks. Seems like Rolex would put the kibosh on that pretty quickly.


These are interesting, as they no longer claim the watch to be Made in USA. Now it's just the crown, bezel assembly, and midcase.

No longer any bogus claim of an American made movement, and the bracelet I suppose is still off-shored, as is the crystal.

At least pressure is beginning to make a difference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Mr Auto said:


> Do you have anything you'd like to add to this discussion??...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I already have.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

acheongtk said:


> I've actually reached out to John and this is his reply.
> 
> Ye we read his post. His claims are utterly untrue and largely fabricated, damages are done.
> 
> ...


So we're supposed to believe that somebody created the Wyoming business filing (I looked that one up, it's real) a year and a half ago to support a smear blog? That's really playing the long game.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

Hopefully all this info is passed to the authorities who will evaluate.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

murokello said:


> If Bo sits in the company that is owned by this criminal it is really bad. Also considering how he backed Ginault and tried to hinder the conversation about the criminal activities. That document even contains his address. All this looks really bad now.


If Bo actually backed the company, his real name would have showed up on the paperwork, not a forum handle. Also, the blogger appeared to know Bo's real name, so if he or she was playing a really long smear campaign, they would have used a real name. I suspect that, like Doc, Bo's name was forged on that paperwork without his knowledge or consent.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

acheongtk said:


> I've actually reached out to John and this is his reply.
> 
> Ye we read his post. His claims are utterly untrue and largely fabricated, damages are done.
> 
> ...


Interesting choice of words, says the claims are "largely" fabricated, not "completely" fabricated. At the same time, I also agree that much of the evidence presented could have been fabricated/photoshopped or, in the case of "the table", is just comically thin.

But does it bother anyone else that the author of this hit piece is completely anonymous? When 60
Minutes does an investigative piece, part of the power is in their reputation as journalists. Why didn't this individual either come out publicly or turn over his evidence to a legitimate operation like Hodinkee to have them verify and them publish?

This whole thing stinks but being honest, my appetite for buying a Ginault has diminished significantly as a result. I'm totally cool with the idea of an homage and if someone took exception on that basis (as many do) I'd be happy to discuss their merits and agree to disagree if it came to that. But what I don't want to have to do is defend myself if/when another watch enthusiast notices me wearing one and calls it out as rooted in an unethical, if not out right criminal, operation.

Sigh...


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

MX793 said:


> If Bo actually backed the company, his real name would have showed up on the paperwork, not a forum handle. Also, the blogger appeared to know Bo's real name, so if he or she was playing a really long smear campaign, they would have used a real name. I suspect that, like Doc, Bo's name was forged on that paperwork without his knowledge or consent.


 Yes that is of course possible. Makes you wonder.


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

murokello said:


> If Bo sits in the company that is owned by this criminal it is really bad. Also considering how he backed Ginault and tried to hinder the conversation about the criminal activities. That document even contains his address. All this looks really bad now. But hopefully all this info is passed to the authorities who hopefully will take action.


Did you look at the address? No one lives there. It's a Subway franchise. The documents showed both DocVail and the site Admin at the same address - yes, the documents had two different addresses for DocVail.

You appear desperate for this link to be true so much as to ignore the shadiness of it all. Such as, why would they use their forum names, or butcherings thereof?

I'm not convinced that the blog owner filed those documents himself years ago, but I am convinced (as most here are) that they were submitted fraudulently. Given that why is it surprising the site admin would prefer to suppress links to a blog which is incredibly thorough in some ways, but also takes these very shady filings as gospel without questioning the obvious oddities that so much of this tangent seems to hinge on?


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

murokello said:


> Yes that is of course possible. It would be a really bad backstabbing from the Ginault to forge Bo's name there considering Bo has been actively backing Ginault. What makes things even more troubling is that *Bo is claiming the faker is the guy who made the investigation* and not the owner of Ginault. Makes you wonder.


Where's that?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I already have.


When and where? Not trying to pick a fight but Chris Vail has been all over this thread and the Reddit one but I haven't seen anything really from you all here. There are some very serious accusations being made about WUS, seems to me you would want to address them forcefully.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

I buy a watch as a product on its own merits, I buy the watch, I don't care about bedside stories by or about its maker.

Buy the watches, not the stories.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> When and where? Not trying to pick a fight but Chris Vail has been all over this thread and the Reddit one but I haven't seen anything really from you all here. There are some very serious accusations being made about WUS, seems to me you would want to address them forcefully.


amen! I've been saying this the article dropped

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

kelt said:


> I buy a watch as a product on its own merits, I buy the watch, I don't care about bedside stories by or about its maker.
> 
> Buy the watches, not the stories.


Even when the watch might be "HAND BUILT IN AMERICA"... from parts from the same suppliers who support and perpetuate the counterfeit market?

You're obviously free to do as you wish, but as a member of a watch enthusiast forum, it seems like that kind of thing should always be an important factor.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

If I cannot be jingoistic on America’s birthday, when can I?

Maybe I’ve got it wrong, but that Ginault is as made in America as my immigrant grandparents. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

Scarry.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Sorry, double post... :-(


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...70gsln-3860842-post49304851.html#post49304851

The noise that Ginault made when hand wound did put me off...completely....

As a non native English speaker, I would like to ask, is #1 in this thread, good and proper English throughout..? The language, the phrasing..?

( https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...an-rover-181070gsln-3860842.html#post36654154 )

It seems to me similar to what I read on Amazon sometimes, in product descriptions, Products from outside the EU, well, it's a bit better than most, but...


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

kelt said:


> I buy a watch as a product on its own merits, I buy the watch, I don't care about bedside stories by or about its maker. Buy the watches, not the stories.


 Not everyone wants to support international criminals and fake industry.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

hwa said:


> If I cannot be jingoistic on America's birthday, when can I?
> 
> Maybe I've got it wrong, but that Ginault is as made in America as my immigrant grandparents.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry, but not America's birthday. ;-)


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

jarlaxle said:


> When and where? Not trying to pick a fight but Chris Vail has been all over this thread and the Reddit one but I haven't seen anything really from you all here. There are some very serious accusations being made about WUS, seems to me you would want to address them forcefully.


I'll let our very competent Legal Department do their job. The site has been taken down, so that should tell you something about the claims. Now let's get it back on topic thank you.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

LowIQ said:


> As a non native English speaker, ...an-rover-181070gsln-3860842.html#post36654154 )


No, it isn't from a native speaker, but I never could recognize any patterns that indicated what the speaker's native language was.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Thanks for that....I get my wife to read it...she is better at that sort of thing, as a native English speaker with another few languages should be...it will bore her ...but...


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

Misunderstanding.


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## basso4735 (Aug 21, 2018)

murokello said:


> Why are you going against the blog and not against the criminal behind Ginault who orchestrated all this? Everybody can go and see the Wyoming business filing document linking you to this.


What are you harping on this document where the guy is named with his forum handle? Makes no sense to me if someone was actually a part of a company not using a name they could legally use.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

murokello said:


> Why are you going against the blog and not against the criminal behind Ginault who orchestrated all this? Everybody can go and see the Wyoming business filing document linking you to this.


Has anything been proven? It's funny a man insinuates all this and does not have the balls to put his name to it! Same old crap that was brought up years ago, if you don't like it don't buy it! Simple as that.


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

pepcr1 said:


> Has anything been proven? It's funny a man insinuates all this and does not have the balls to put his name to it! Same old crap that was brought up years ago, if you don't like it don't buy it! Simple as that.


Yeah I haven't been the biggest Ginault fan and have not owned one and the story told sounded damning, but because of the other shots fired it makes it hard to trust the credibility of this story without doing any further reading to confirm any of it. Who knows if any of it is true.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

pepcr1 said:


> Has anything been proven? It's funny a man insinuates all this and does not have the balls to put his name to it! Same old crap that was brought up years ago, if you don't like it don't buy it! Simple as that.


 Yes it was proven. This is about international criminality and fake watch industry.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

murokello said:


> One interesting pic that compares the movement holder from the fake TC Sub pic and the movement holder from the Ginault pic. You can see they are the same:
> 
> View attachment 14283637
> 
> ...


But are these real evidence? Without doing any verification we shouldn't just take this spoon-fed information as is right?

I saw on Ginault's IG a few years ago addressing this allegation. Check it out. I know what the blogpost wrote is rather sensational, causing that innate reaction to want to believe it as nothing else could be true. But I'd like to see more rational thinking here.


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

murokello said:


> Why are you going against the blog and not against the criminal behind Ginault who orchestrated all this? Everybody can go and see the Wyoming business filing document linking you to this.


Why would you assume nothing is being done about the documents?
If it was em implicated I don't necessarily think I'd feel the need to keep everyone updated on the status of any legal proceedings.

The blog being taken down is the visible thing we have. We have no idea whether anything else is in progress.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

murokello said:


> Yes it was proven. This is about international criminality and fake watch industry.


By whom, the author of this nonsense? What a joke, nothing been proven, it's all hearsay. Anyway who cares, does it affect your life in anyway? No, so move on there's a lot of other things to worry about in this world that are more important.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> But are these real evidence? Without doing any verification we shouldn't just take this spoon-fed information as is right? I saw on Ginault's IG a few years ago addressing this allegation. Check it out. I know what the blogpost wrote is rather sensational, causing that innate reaction to want to believe it as nothing else could be true. But I'd like to see more rational thinking here.


 The blog had a ton of evidence. Most of the info is still out there at archive sites etc for anyone to confirm. Read the investigation.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

3005 said:


> It looks like the blog has been taken down by Wordpress for a terms of service violation.
> 
> I appreciated the investigatory work, but it was really bad form for the author to not reach out to the mentioned parties before publishing.


Why is it bad from its not like he's a journalist, it was a individual why would they even bother reaching out to anyone?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

pepcr1 said:


> By whom, the author of this nonsense? What a joke, nothing been proven, it's all hearsay. Anyway who cares, does it affect your life in anyway? No, so move on there's a lot of other things to worry about in this world that are more important.


 This is very interesting.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Me thinks we need some more pics.










Happy 4th of July!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

C'mon guys... The mods have asked, let's try to keep it PC. I too read the exhaustive blog - yes it raises some interesting questions, but in no way is any of it definitive nor impossible to fake. C'mon, pictures of the desk and the movement holder . You can definitely alter the picture information as well. None of this is hardly irrefutable evidence... Can't we all just get along??

Disclaimer: I have an OR-I and my wife pre-ordered an OR-II for my birthday. I am in NO way affiliated with Ginault nor have I received anything from them for free!

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> Why is it bad from its not like he's a journalist, it was a individual why would they even bother reaching out to anyone?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Why? So that they don't end up getting their blog taken down due to ToS violations.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

murokello said:


> If you are not interested you can move on but don't tell me what I should be interested in. For me this is very interesting. Observing how those facades come falling down.[/QUOTE
> 
> I'm here to talk about the watch and not having to see or listen to someone's agenda, whether it's true or not so be it.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Bradjhomes said:


> Why? So that they don't end up getting their blog taken down due to ToS violations.


What I'm saying is that the author of the blog had motives and didn't approach this as a journalist, why would anyone expect him to follow convention? The blog was released damage was done, truth or lies released I don't think they care about it being up or down the information is out and that was the goal.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Occam's razor....


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

pepcr1 said:


> murokello said:
> 
> 
> > If you are not interested you can move on but don't tell me what I should be interested in. For me this is very interesting. Observing how those facades come falling down.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

It's fascinating to watch the Ginault fanboism mutate into cognitive dissonance in real time.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

The watch is a homage so it’s a fake anyway you look at it.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

City74 said:


> The watch is a homage so it's a fake anyway you look at it.


That opinion is just untrue. Didn't you also claim scurfa and nth were original designs? They are homages as well where do you draw the line?you need to really think about what you state before making glittering generalities that are false.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

With all the people in denial in this thread, they can cast another 10 seasons of “Love after Lockup”


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> That opinion is just untrue. Didn't you also claim scurfa and nth were original designs? They are homages as well where do you draw the line?you need to really think about what you state before making glittering generalities that are false.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Sharing design cues and an outright 1:1 homage is a TOTALLY different ballgame


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> What I'm saying is that the author of the blog had motives and didn't approach this as a journalist, why would anyone expect him to follow convention? The blog was released damage was done, truth or lies released I don't think they care about it being up or down the information is out and that was the goal.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Maybe not expect him to follow conventions, but there's no surprise at what happened because of that.

The mention of motives, there's also a huge question mark about the authors motives in those specific parts. He's gone to great and admirable lengths to uncover plenty of dirt, digging real deep, but then doesn't even really glance at the company filings - otherwise he would have seen the glaring issues with the names and addresses rather than making sweeping statements about what they must mean. That lack of detail is at complete odds with the rest of his research.

Seems a little...deliberate? Especially when the author has ignored any questions about those facts in the multiple avenues he has been responding to over the last 24 hours.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

City74 said:


> Sharing design cues and an outright 1:1 homage is a TOTALLY different ballgame


A 1:1 homage to which model exactly?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Bradjhomes said:


> Maybe not expect him to follow conventions, but there's no surprise at what happened because of that.
> 
> The mention of motives, there's also a huge question mark about the authors motives in those specific parts. He's gone to great and admirable lengths to uncover plenty of dirt, digging real deep, but then doesn't even really glance at the company filings - otherwise he would have seen the glaring issues with the names and addresses rather than making sweeping statements about what they must mean. That lack of detail is at complete odds with the rest of his research.
> 
> Seems a little...deliberate? Especially when the author has ignored any questions about those facts in the multiple avenues he has been responding to over the last 24 hours.


Yes I agree the clear inclusion of bo and vail is just odd, who on earth starts a company and founds it with a forum handle.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

City74 said:


> Sharing design cues and an outright 1:1 homage is a TOTALLY different ballgame


That's your opinion. That's not a fact. Stop treating your opinion as fact as others as wrong.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> Yes I agree the clear inclusion of bo and vail is just odd, who on earth starts a company and founds it with a forum handle.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


And who doesn't spot that when posting an extensive exposé?


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> That's your opinion. That's not a fact. Stop treating your opinion as fact as others as wrong.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


No that's not an opinion. A 1:1 homage is a fake.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

City74 said:


> No that's not an opinion. A 1:1 homage is a fake.


I'll ask you again: What model are you referring to exactly?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Bradjhomes said:


> And who doesn't spot that when posting an extensive exposé?


Someone with alternate motives, I've agreed with you this whole time.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

City74 said:


> No that's not an opinion. A 1:1 homage is a fake.


Please provide the exact ROLEX model you think is copied by Ginault, 1:1 means a full details copy good luck with that!

For your much needed education of fake/genuine a fake has all the markings of the original it replicate, first of all the name!


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

double shot! one is enough!


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

Is there a tldr version of this? I've never really followed Ginault but I did want to try one. The original post with the information seems to have been deleted?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

JLS36 said:


> That's your opinion. That's not a fact. Stop treating your opinion as fact as others as wrong.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Likewise.

I haven't checked G's site lately, but it used to extol the exactitude of their efforts to copy the 16610 mid case and bracelet. So, yeah, that model.

If you think changing the handset and crystal alters that foundational copy, So be it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

JLS36 said:


> Someone with alternate motives, I've agreed with you this whole time.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Having someone to converse with helps my get it straight again I my head.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

AVS_Racing said:


> Is there a tldr version of this? I've never really followed Ginault but I did want to try one. The original post with the information seems to have been deleted?


TL;DR:

Ginault has long been under scrutiny for questionable advertising/labeling (including country of origin) and for potentially being spearheaded by an individual formerly associated with producing high-quality counterfeit watches. An anonymous individual recently published a blog post, which was subsequently removed, that compiled some pretty damning evidence that the individual behind the Ginault brand is the same individual who formerly produced the high quality counterfeits. The implication here is that the individual pivoted from making counterfeits to changing the name on the dial and selling under the Ginault brand. This obviously does not sit well with many forum members.

The blog also raised some very suspect (and potentially amateurish) claims against a WUS admin and a well-known microbrand owner, which has led to others questioning the whole article.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

hwa said:


> Likewise.
> 
> I haven't checked G's site lately, but it used to extol the exactitude of their efforts to copy the 16610 mid case and bracelet. So, yeah, that model.
> 
> ...


My debate wasn't that Ginault wasn't trying to be as close to a sub as possible but that everyone has their own definition of what they are comfortable with in regards to homages. I don't care one way or the other as long as they aren't fakes/replicas go for it. It's unfair to chastise people on their preferences when the scale is sliding.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

AVS_Racing said:


> Is there a tldr version of this? I've never really followed Ginault but I did want to try one. The original post with the information seems to have been deleted?





3005 said:


> TL;DR:
> 
> Ginault has long been under scrutiny for questionable advertising/labeling (including country of origin) and for potentially being spearheaded by an individual formerly associated with producing high-quality counterfeit watches. An anonymous individual recently published a blog post, which was subsequently removed, that compiled some pretty damning evidence that the individual behind the Ginault brand is the same individual who formerly produced the high quality counterfeits. The implication here is that the individual pivoted from making counterfeits to changing the name on the dial and selling under the Ginault brand. This obviously does not sit well with many forum members.
> 
> The blog also raised some very suspect (and potentially amateurish) claims against a WUS admin and a well-known microbrand owner, which has led to others questioning the whole article.


I would say this guy pretty much summarized it for you. If you still want more info, you might try googling the following terms in no particular order - *Lies and Deceit: Exposing Tsung Chi, Thomas Caddell, and Ginault's Illegal Past* and maybe scroll down to the most recent result. Also, if you're still considering a Ginault purchase following your research, you may want to keep an eye on ebay and forums to see what prices do in the coming weeks and months.


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## Maithree (Jan 17, 2013)

"Hand Built In America." - https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-181175lsiln/

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck......


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

More pics?









Good night!


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## kevinbaxxter92 (May 29, 2019)

Glad I found a thread like this!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> More pics?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks awesome mate. Glad I chose the no date version now.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Love how all these fellas are posting, heavily criticising other members watches and their choices, from their bloody high horses...

...and probably wearing trainers, t-shirt, and/or pants made in third world countries by 3rd party contractors with not much care for work rights. Or child rights.

But yeah, please do keep bashing the watches that some members spent their well earned money on and trying to make them feel bad about it. After all, this is a forum for watch lovers, right?


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

mrmorfo, Pot calling the kettle black?

Need more popcorn.
Can’t believe the blind support and lack of ethics.


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I'm about half way reading the info and it's definitely very interesting


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

I think it's safe to say the publisher of the doc gave us enough evidence to connect TC to Ginault. (the rest of the facts are speculative as there's others involved who have different versions of events) 

Assuming this is true let's add up the pros and cons. 

Is it wrong/immoral that he at a time stole someone else's design to make 1:1 copies to sell for his own personal gain? Yes. 

is it wrong that he created a legitimate company, but lied about his identity and continues to hide it using various pen names and aliases? Questionable but understandable given the circumstances. We all have a past and expecting this man to be transparent about his is naive to say the least. I'm sure anyone here wouldn't be willing to divulge the murky details of thier past to to anyone let alone people you've never met. 

Is it wrong of him to now use his past connections and expertise to create a good quality legitimate product under a legitimate company? again debatable, but I think more people would be in favour than not. 

His reluctance to share his truth has made his claims about the origins of his parts and processes questionable, but does that have any affect on the quality of the end product? Nope! and does it look and function as claimed: Yes 

Have Rolex suffered financially as a result of this man's actions?? I doubt it... they're still a billion dollar company the last time I checked and I'm pretty certain the members of the Hans Wilsdorf foundation have no problem putting food on the table or keeping lights on. 

Has there been any serious physical/financial harm or loss of life as a result of this man's actions? probably not... we're not talking about some international drug smuggling Kingpin here. 

Does he create a quality product, sold at a reasonable price which people enjoy? yep! 

since the creation of Ginault has he been true to his word regarding refunds, dealing with customer service issues, listening to customer feedback etc? Yes (as far as I'm aware of) 

I understand why people wouldnt want any involvement in his current activities but I'm all for people trying to turn things around for the better even if it's one baby step at a time. 

The creation of Ginault is a good start and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is and support his transition. Maybe with time and growth he'll feel more comfortable about opening up. who knows... 


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

I finished reading the whole thing so basically it's a prettied up replica. I think it wouldn't be as bad if they didn't go with the whole made in America, inhouse movement. If they were a bit more transparent like Steinhart, ETA movement, custom rotor I think this would be a taken a bit more lightly. I knew it was too good to be true in the beginning when this mystery company that no one has heard of all of the sudden makes the best sub that money can buy from what I read.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

AVS_Racing said:


> I finished reading the whole thing so basically it's a prettied up replica. I think it wouldn't be as bad if they didn't go with the whole made in America, inhouse movement. If they were a bit more transparent like Steinhart, ETA movement, custom rotor I think this would be a taken a bit more lightly. I knew it was too good to be true in the beginning when this mystery company that no one has heard of all of the sudden makes the best sub that money can buy from what I read.


FWIW the new OR2 can be ordered with the in-house movement or a Sellita SW200. This was done in response to all the controversy around the in-house movement.


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## AVS_Racing (Aug 16, 2014)

^^ from what I remember, my Sw200s haven't been that accurate and the winding felt gritty. I've had a few of them a while back, all my watches right now are all either ETA or 9015. I just looked on their site I think the cheapest watch is about $1300 to $1600. I still want to handle one but just not at those prices to try them out.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

You forgot that both "Charles Ginault" and the counterfeit maker "TC" were contacted independently by many in the WIS community, including at least one blog/website doing a review of the Ginault OR, and they both said they were not the same person. Actually, Tsung Chi, sitting behind his computer, said they were not the same person. So he's either a compulsive liar with no credibility or a schizophrenic. Does it mean his watches are bad? Of course not. Are there worse sins in the world than being a compulsive liar? Yes. All that said, anyone who takes anything Tsung Chi (aka Thomas Caddell aka Charles Ginault aka Allan Kuefer) says at face value is a complete idiot. Tsung Chi has no credibility. None. Yes, yes, there are probably worse people in the world than Tsung Chi, but I will avoid them all too.

Every time I see "Ginault" I'll think of this Chinese conman trying to come up with a name that sounds Western. Do other watch brands have contrived names? Yes, of course. But now the name "Ginault" has a special history all its own. If you buy or wear one - and I genuinely don't care if you do - you have quite a story to tell your mates at the bar if they ask you about your watch...haha. "Let me tell you all about this watch. Do you have 30 minutes..."

I'm the kind of person that finds humor in everything, and this is hilarious. This whole story would make a great dark comedy - think "Pain and Gain" or "I, Tonya".

WUS hasn't been this good since BaronVonXander and Sportura on the Rolex forum. As Maverick said to Goose "They were abused children" "We're gonna have a good time"

They're already having fun with this on the Public Forum:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/watch-meme-collection-3898418-360.html#post49303781
https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/watch-meme-collection-3898418-361.html#post49305431



3005 said:


> TL;DR:
> 
> Ginault has long been under scrutiny for questionable advertising/labeling (including country of origin) and for potentially being spearheaded by an individual formerly associated with producing high-quality counterfeit watches. An anonymous individual recently published a blog post, which was subsequently removed, that compiled some pretty damning evidence that the individual behind the Ginault brand is the same individual who formerly produced the high quality counterfeits. The implication here is that the individual pivoted from making counterfeits to changing the name on the dial and selling under the Ginault brand. This obviously does not sit well with many forum members.
> 
> The blog also raised some very suspect (and potentially amateurish) claims against a WUS admin and a well-known microbrand owner, which has led to others questioning the whole article.


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## kelticSide (Jan 15, 2017)

The resale on these models reflect some of the back and forth that has been associated with them IMOP. They make an excellent looking timepiece but time will tell if the can move off the standard models and progress to new levels all while trying to shake off some of the clouds.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Does he create a quality product, sold at a reasonable price which people enjoy? yep!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


If he is in fact Thomas Caddell, whom I remember on Google+ many years ago who got shut down HARD for selling forgeries, then I can also say I remember his pricing.

They were in the mid-$500 range shipped.

Ginaults are overpriced. Period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a sucker. This is my opinion. I owned two. One used. One new. Got the discount.

There's a reason he sold then for 50% off initially to get the word out. He took your money and made the same margins he made before when they were Rolex copies.

Again, all assuming he's Thomas Caddell.

I'll also say I had conversations with him many years ago. Same speaking style. Same typing style. Same lack of specifics when asked direct question.

I'm going to say they're one in the same.

EDIT: I found a new and redacted version of the article. It's damning. If you're still supporting Ginault and saying John is not Tsung Chi, I have a bridge to sell you in Nevada. With an ocean view. Are they excellent clones? No doubt. Are they worth the asking price, given all of this disgusting mess?

No. Not at all. I feel dirty having owned two of them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> They were in the mid-$500 range shipped.


And at about that same time I got a brand new Christopher Ward with a nicely decorated ETA 2824-2 for $250. Watch prices have gone up across the board since then, in case you haven't noticed.

I don't care who is who. My iphone was made in China, ruled by a repressive regime that is engaging in all sorts of heinous practices right at this very moment, for example, this. I can't police the world. If anyone associated with Ginault is legally liable for something, the relevant authorities should pursue it, or those directly wronged should seek civil remedies.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

Seems to be online again. There is some new info.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

By the way is Ginault still going to be a WUS sponsor?


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## raptorrapture (Apr 15, 2019)

JLS36 said:


> What I'm saying is that the author of the blog had motives and didn't approach this as a journalist, why would anyone expect him to follow convention? The blog was released damage was done, truth or lies released I don't think they care about it being up or down the information is out and that was the goal.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


To his credit, the author has updated the blog with responses and has been pretty active on the Reddit thread. His posts have been suppressed by Reddit, WUS, and even Wordpress itself, so he's had a difficult time getting a proper avenue to participate in a discussion.

For what it's worth, without knowing anyone invested in this, I trust the author more than I'd trust Ginault and all the people mentioned in this, as at least the author is making an effort to respond.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

It would be funny that, thanks to some stupid crusade of a loopy random guy and his set of snobbish sanctimonious followers on their high horses, the community ended up deprived of what's unquestionably the best quality homage of the 5-digit submariner.

Way to go, "watch lovers"! Way to go!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

And an extra piece of food for thought to all you, beings of supreme light that hold the highest moral standards: Do you realise that, thanks to your efforts of shutting down the best legal homage of a Rolex Submariner, you are pushing some people to look for not so legal alternatives?


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## eric72 (Nov 9, 2012)

I give a s**t if he was TC in rep business. The watches seem to be great. And for those who had a high quality rep in hand know what I mean. 

I would possibly not buy a Rolex, but Ginault - if service is great and watches high quality. 

My 2c.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> It would be funny that, thanks to some stupid crusade of a loopy random guy and his set of snobbish sanctimonious followers on their high horses, the community ended up deprived of what's unquestionably the best quality homage of the 5-digit submariner.
> 
> Way to go, "watch lovers"! Way to go!


Amen!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

murokello said:


> Why are you going against the blog and not against the criminal behind Ginault who orchestrated all this? Everybody can go and see the Wyoming business filing document linking you to this.


Why would the author write the blog and not take all this information to law enforcement?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> And an extra piece of food for thought to all you, beings of supreme light that hold the highest moral standards: Do you realise that, thanks to your efforts of shutting down the best legal homage of a Rolex Submariner, you are pushing some people to look for not so legal alternatives?


Lol please the drama and speculation. Nobody in this thread has anything to do with the article. Some people like homages some people hate them. Some bash them and some ignore them. To draw a line from Ginault being taken off market to people sprinting towards fake watches is comical. Please come up with something different. I mean wow. I'll add that if you feel compelled to go buy a replica Rolex because Ginault closes shop because of a blog post, well you are not a wis and not a watch fan.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## raptorrapture (Apr 15, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> And an extra piece of food for thought to all you, beings of supreme light that hold the highest moral standards: Do you realise that, thanks to your efforts of shutting down the best legal homage of a Rolex Submariner, you are pushing some people to look for not so legal alternatives?


I don't understand why this "homage" word is being thrown around when it's clear by the article that these are replica watches. Call them what they are. If you happily own one, good for you- do what makes you happy, but don't sit there and defend a company responsible for making counterfeit watches. There are companies making watches that are "inspired" by other designs which you can call homage, but in this case the guy took elements from his counterfeit watches to make a watch and slapped a different logo on it. That's quite different from what Christopher Ward or other micro brands do and it's a disservice to them to imply otherwise.

You say people spent their hard earned money on these and we shouldn't judge them- well what about those that save up to buy the real thing? I don't have a Sub myself, but growing up a son of an immigrant who came here with one bag and $100 in the bank, it was always my dream to own a Rolex. I saved up for 10 years and bought a Milgauss. I'd be damn pissed if someone ripped that watch off for $1200 and then people called me "sanctimonious" for speaking out against it.

Just some food for thought.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

JLS36 said:


> Lol please the drama and speculation. Nobody in this thread has anything to do with the article. Some people like homages some people hate them. Some bash them and some ignore them. To draw a line from Ginault being taken off market to people sprinting towards fake watches is comical. Please come up with something different. I mean wow. I'll add that if you feel compelled to go buy a replica Rolex because Ginault closes shop because of a blog post, well you are not a wis and not a watch fan.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I think the point is don't buy a replica. Period. Especially from a crook like this company

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

raptorrapture said:


> I don't understand why this "homage" word is being thrown around when it's clear by the article that these are replica watches. Call them what they are. If you happily own one, good for you- do what makes you happy, but don't sit there and defend a company responsible for making counterfeit watches. There are companies making watches that are "inspired" by other designs which you can call homage, but in this case the guy took elements from his counterfeit watches to make a watch and slapped a different logo on it. That's quite different from what Christopher Ward or other micro brands do and it's a disservice to them to imply otherwise.
> 
> You say people spent their hard earned money on these and we shouldn't judge them- well what about those that save up to buy the real thing? I don't have a Sub myself, but growing up a son of an immigrant who came here with one bag and $100 in the bank, it was always my dream to own a Rolex. I saved up for 10 years and bought a Milgauss. I'd be damn pissed if someone ripped that watch off for $1200 and then people called me "sanctimonious" for speaking out against it.
> 
> ...


1. There's no evidence to prove that he still makes counterfeits.
2. He's done more than just slap a new logo on a replica

Answer me this: Which rolex exactly is the Ginault a copy of??... I'll wait..... and whilst your figuring that out go compare the Steinhart ocean one or an Invicta pro diver to a Ginault and tell me which ones looks more like a Rolex.


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## eric72 (Nov 9, 2012)

Ginault - and even the rep business - show us how big the margins in watch industry really are. You can have a watch with similar quality to Rolex (not considering movement probably) for just 300 bucks (rep) or 800 (?? not sure about the discounted price) from Ginault. 

Now decide what you want. A great watch or a big name. The first you can have for a few hundered USD, the second for a few thousands.

No, I do not own reps. But I did in the past. Honestly. Therefore I can say how good qualtity is. But in my price range reps would usually not make sense (Oris, Ball.....except my Ploprof probably). 

The Ginault is NO replica. neither is Davosa, steinhart etc.


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## eric72 (Nov 9, 2012)

It's said he's out of business since a few years now. And why not? Ginault brings him far more money.


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## raptorrapture (Apr 15, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> 1. There's no evidence to prove that he still makes counterfeits.
> 2. He's done more than just slap a new logo on tla replica
> 
> answer me this. Which rolex exactly is the Ginault a copy of??... I'll wait..... and whilst your figuring that out go compare the Steinhart ocean one or an Invicta pro diver to a Ginault and tell me which ones look more like a Rolex.
> ...


There's no evidence to prove he doesn't, either. We don't know either way. The fact that he made them at one points taints him and the brand to me.

The images of the internals in the blog speak for themselves - comparing Ginaults to the replica Rolexs TC made. Whether or not you can make peace with the fact that he's "gone clean" is going to be where we differ. Doesn't excuse his previous illicit activity to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Avo said:


> And at about that same time I got a brand new Christopher Ward with a nicely decorated ETA 2824-2 for $250. Watch prices have gone up across the board since then, in case you haven't noticed.
> 
> I don't care who is who. My iphone was made in China, ruled by a repressive regime that is engaging in all sorts of heinous practices right at this very moment, for example, this. I can't police the world. If anyone associated with Ginault is legally liable for something, the relevant authorities should pursue it, or those directly wronged should seek civil remedies.


I actually had an email conversation with Thomas Caddell just three to four years ago. Still have the emails. His Rolex clones were $500 shipped to your door. I never bought one, but I was genuinely curious how much he charged. I still have the email for proof.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I say it's time for Tsung Chi to come clean. If he wants to keep the Ginault brand untarnished, come clean, full stop. Admit who he is, what he has done leading up to now, and then make it CLEAR HIS INTENTIONS moving forward. 

Then and ONLY then can he even begin to have some level of trust within the watch community. That's how it works. 

Who agrees?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## raptorrapture (Apr 15, 2019)

eric72 said:


> The Ginault is NO replica. neither is Davosa, steinhart etc.


Steinhart uses an actual ETA movement whereas Ginault has backwards-engineered and copied theirs. That's disingenuous to me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

raptorrapture said:


> Steinhart uses an actual ETA movement whereas Ginault has backwards-engineered and copied theirs. That's disingenuous to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally agree. Also, if you know of anyone who has removed or modified any parts in the Ginault, you'll find that gen Rolex parts fit without any modification, sans the difference in pinion height.

That is damning right there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

raptorrapture said:


> Steinhart uses an actual ETA movement whereas Ginault has backwards-engineered and copied theirs. That's disingenuous to me.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The new one uses a Sellita Movement

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## eric72 (Nov 9, 2012)

You know there is other copies of 2824 out there? SW200 is. And the STP 1-11 is as well.

So what are you talking about? Is he copying as well the ETA brand name somewhere? No?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> 1. There's no evidence to prove that he still makes counterfeits.
> 2. He's done more than just slap a new logo on a replica
> 
> Answer me this: Which rolex exactly is the Ginault a copy of??... I'll wait..... and whilst your figuring that out go compare the Steinhart ocean one or an Invicta pro diver to a Ginault and tell me which ones looks more like a Rolex.


Why waste time telling an ostrich the color of the sky?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Should have bought a Square.


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## 3-1-1 (May 15, 2018)

Occur to anyone else that maybe ... just maybe ... Deepdweller is a repentant Tsung Chi????!!!!!!
So guilt stricken over his past misdeeds that he decided to out himself with a detailed mea culpa. 
But in doing so, he could not resist the impulse to create yet another internet persona.
MINDS BLOWN!


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

This thread helps me to better understand how it is you see admitted murderers have followers that still adamantly defend them.


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## eric72 (Nov 9, 2012)

comparing murder with fake watches is, hm, weird.


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## cortman (Sep 20, 2018)

3-1-1 said:


> Occur to anyone else that maybe ... just maybe ... Deepdweller is a repentant Tsung Chi????!!!!!!
> So guilt stricken over his past misdeeds that he decided to out himself with a detailed mea culpa.
> But in doing so, he could not resist the impulse to create yet another internet persona.
> MINDS BLOWN!


Lol I love this theory. Definitely the one I'm going with.


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## Zakalwe (Jun 27, 2017)

Decent society allows people who've committed crimes and misdeeds a second chance, if they serve an appropriate punishment and/or they repent.

TC/Ginault has done neither.


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

eric72 said:


> comparing murder with fake watches is, hm, weird.


Is the Pied Piper a more understandable analogy?


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

So much drama around a WATCH, never again will I give my wife a hard time about keeping up with the kardashians. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

So I'm trying to take all this in and this is how I see it. The blog was a fake hit piece created by a slighted person to take down Ginault. That much is proven a few pages back and yet the instigators on here are still discussing it like it is real. So somehow this Chinese guy is tied in maybe he is getting revenge on an American made product he's competing with? Rolex owners obviously support this amateurish smear campaign. Dad always said if something seemed hanky, follow the money.


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## Zakalwe (Jun 27, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> So I'm trying to take all this in and this is how I see it. The blog was a fake hit piece created by a slighted person to take down Ginault. That much is proven a few pages back and yet the instigators on here are still discussing it like it is real. So somehow this Chinese guy is tied in maybe he is getting revenge on an American made product he's competing with? Rolex owners obviously support this amateurish smear campaign. Dad always said if something seemed hanky, follow the money.


Deepdweller did an expose with a similar level of detail on a Lithuanian rugby player who appears to have fabricated and sold fake Rolex watches, fairly recently. The jilted customer/revenge angle doesn't fit unless he randomly happens to have been slighted by two separate and entirely unconnected people who both just so happen to peddle fake Rolex.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Brush diver said:


> So I'm trying to take all this in and this is how I see it. The blog was a fake hit piece created by a slighted person to take down Ginault. That much is proven a few pages back and yet the instigators on here are still discussing it like it is real. So somehow this Chinese guy is tied in maybe he is getting revenge on an American made product he's competing with? Rolex owners obviously support this amateurish smear campaign. Dad always said if something seemed hanky, follow the money.


How you start this post and end this post conflict. The evidence is damning, period.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

Zakalwe said:


> Deepdweller did an expose with a similar level of detail on a Lithuanian rugby player who appears to have fabricated and sold fake Rolex watches, fairly recently. The jilted customer/revenge angle doesn't fit unless he randomly happens to have been slighted by two separate and entirely unconnected people who both just so happen to peddle fake Rolex.


With minimal investigative work, I can see he just joined and all 6 comments are about Ginault. Things that make you go hmmm.


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## Zakalwe (Jun 27, 2017)

123Blueface said:


> With minimal investigative work, I can see he just joined and all 6 comments are about Ginault. Things that make you go hmmm.


Surprise surprise!

Shills aside, someone upthread mentioned cognitive dissonance. The amount of it on display is genuinely fascinating.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Brush diver said:


> So I'm trying to take all this in and this is how I see it. The blog was a fake hit piece created by a slighted person to take down Ginault. That much is proven a few pages back and yet the instigators on here are still discussing it like it is real. So somehow this Chinese guy is tied in maybe he is getting revenge on an American made product he's competing with? Rolex owners obviously support this amateurish smear campaign. Dad always said if something seemed hanky, follow the money.


Even if you don't agree with everything written in the blog, a lot of the evidence is independently verifiable. To then claim that it's wholly a "hit piece" is pretty ridiculous.

The longer this thread goes, the more I'm astounded at the lengths people will go to blindly and full-heartily support a watch brand despite the evidence presented. _Serious_ cognitive dissonance.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

murokello said:


> By the way is Ginault still going to be WUS sponsor? Keep taking money from this criminal seems like a bad thing to do.


For the record, Ginault hasn't been a Sponsor here since February 22nd, 2018.


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

3005 said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm trying to take all this in and this is how I see it. The blog was a fake hit piece created by a slighted person to take down Ginault. That much is proven a few pages back and yet the instigators on here are still discussing it like it is real. So somehow this Chinese guy is tied in maybe he is getting revenge on an American made product he's competing with? Rolex owners obviously support this amateurish smear campaign. Dad always said if something seemed hanky, follow the money.
> ...


It was stated several pages back that known people, I guess members here, had spoken to and or met all three of the supposed characters in this story and that they are all separate individuals. That to me in and of itself is enough to dismiss the rest of the story.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Brush diver said:


> It was stated several pages back that known people, I guess members here, had spoken to and or met all three of the supposed characters in this story and that they are all separate individuals. That to me in and of itself is enough to dismiss the rest of the story.


Who said that?


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## vipereaper30 (Sep 12, 2009)

Interesting story and quite the polarizing topic!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Brush diver said:


> It was stated several pages back that known people, I guess members here, had spoken to and or met all three of the supposed characters in this story and that they are all separate individuals. That to me in and of itself is enough to dismiss the rest of the story.


I'd like to know who these people are and to see that for myself and verify that they are real. The digital footprints in the accusation/write-up and very very damning.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

3005 said:


> Who said that?


Lenoy McMurdykin
Jeron Sherofishenoit
Doran Achmeinstermein


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

No, no, this was many years in the making! These slanderers set up fake accounts and filled false business licenses many years ago to frame me! It's a vast WIS conspiracy.

...Must fight cognitive dissonance...must fight cognitive dissonance...Jack is a dull boy...



Dec1968 said:


> I'd like to know who these people are and to see that for myself and verify that they are real. The digital footprints in the accusation/write-up and very very damning.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> It was stated several pages back that known people, I guess members here, had spoken to and or met all three of the supposed characters in this story and that they are all separate individuals. That to me in and of itself is enough to dismiss the rest of the story.


And at least one person here has said that spoke and exchanged written correspondence with two of those names and said the voice, speech patterns, and writing style were the same.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

tynan.nida said:


> Some much drama around a WATCH, never again will I give my wife a hard time about keeping up with the kardashians.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is, by far, the best post of the last twenty pages.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

3005 said:


> Even if you don't agree with everything written in the blog, a lot of the evidence is independently verifiable. To then claim that it's wholly a "hit piece" is pretty ridiculous.
> 
> The longer this thread goes, the more I'm astounded at the lengths people will go to blindly and full-heartily support a watch brand despite the evidence presented. _Serious_ cognitive dissonance.


While I don't disagree with your observation, I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors. If anything, those are worse offenders to IP protection due to Seiko still producing the copied models versus Rolex long since having moved on from the iconic 5 digit Sub mid case design. I believe there is more potentially lost revenue for Seiko due to these "homages" than to Rolex from Ginault's offerings.

And, for the record, I own both an authentic Seiko SLA017 and authentic Seiko MM300, and no, I do not own any of those various Chinese copies of those iconic designs.

I also own an OR, purchased in 2016 for $518. I bought it because I wanted a sword hand mil-sub homage.

Regarding the blog, I see two separate accusations:
- First, the guy used to be involved in criminal activities, but no longer is. I think I can get past that fact if his criminal activity ceased when the Ginualt brand was re-launched. I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for him to publicly out himself as suggested above, but Rolex may pursue a civil suit based upon the evidence presented.

- Second, and more troubling, is the Wyoming document. At a minimum it represents the commission of a felony. At worse, it represents identity theft (the use of someone else's name without their knowledge in a legal document) for some unknown purpose.

This second point is the more troubling one for me. I am waiting to see how it plays out, as I would assume the State of Wyoming will want to investigate and address it.

Finally, I have to come to terms with whether the above will impact me keeping / enjoying the watch.


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > It was stated several pages back that known people, I guess members here, had spoken to and or met all three of the supposed characters in this story and that they are all separate individuals. That to me in and of itself is enough to dismiss the rest of the story.
> ...


All of that can easily be faked. People with some photoshop skills are truly amazing in what they can do today.

I don't have the time to go back and find the exact post but I do know that one of the administrators, he has a NC location, posted right around that post that the original blog was taken down and if anything that should tell you all you need to know about the validity of the blog or something to that effect.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Because other homage brands are honest about what they are and who they are. I went to WindUp SF and talked to some of the micro brand owners. They're real people, using their real names, and they will be the first to tell you that their watches are made in Asia. They don't hide behind 4 fake names and make up stories about in-house, American made movements.

If Tsung Chi had just said, "My name is Tsung Chi and I'm making a high quality homage clone, and no, it's not an in-house movement made in the USA" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Frankly, I wouldn't even care that much about crimes committed many years ago (assuming he's no longer committing them, but we don't know because he's a compulsive liar).

The homage thing is fine. To each their own. The blurry line between legitimate and illegitimate Chinese products I understand. The world and its markets are complicated. I even get that there are much worse crimes. The production of my iPhone potentially involved worse crimes. But the cognitive dissonance displayed on this forum to defend this guy with the amount of overwhelming and independently verifiable evidence that's been presented is...at this point it's just comical.

Also, I hate compulsive liars and have a soft spot for honest thieves.



Ryeguy said:


> While I don't disagree with your observation, I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors. If anything, those are worse offenders to IP protection due to Seiko still producing the copied models versus Rolex long since having moved on from the iconic 5 digit Sub mid case design. I believe there is more potentially lost revenue for Seiko due to these "homages" than to Rolex from Ginault's offerings.
> 
> And, for the record, I own both an authentic Seiko SLA017 and authentic Seiko MM300, and no, I do not own any of those various Chinese copies of those iconic designs.
> 
> ...


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> Regarding the blog, I see two separate accusations:
> - First, the guy used to be involved in criminal activities, but no longer is. I think I can get past that fact if his criminal activity ceased when the Ginualt brand was re-launched. I don't think it is a reasonable expectation for him to publicly out himself as suggested above, but Rolex may pursue a civil suit based upon the evidence presented.
> 
> - Second, and more troubling, is the Wyoming document. At a minimum it represents the commission of a felony. At worse, it represents identity theft (the use of someone else's name without their knowledge in a legal document) for some unknown purpose.
> ...


This is basically where I stand as well. Ginault branded watches are not reps or counterfeits. If the person behind Ginault was formerly involved in the rep scene and has since left that world and gone legit, all the better. One less counterfeiter in the world. Reality is, a lot of close homages get very close to rep territory and I would guess that a number of them have closer affiliations with the counterfeit black market than most here want to admit. If TC and Ginault are the same person, I can understand not wanting to fess up to that.

Point 2 is far more concerning to me. While I can forgive some lack of transparency in not wanting to openly associate the new Ginault homages with former TC counterfeits, fraudulent business filings as part of that cover-up and smoke and mirrors is not indicative of someone trying to turn over a leaf and walk the straight and narrow.


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> All of that can easily be faked. People with some photoshop skills are truly amazing in what they can do today.
> 
> I don't have the time to go back and find the exact post but I do know that one of the administrators, he has a NC location, posted right around that post that the original blog was taken down and if anything that should tell you all you need to know about the validity of the blog or something to that effect.


You could argue that the camera data was photoshopped, or the photos of the same movement holder being used for both watches was doctored. The common postal addresses between the different business entities (that you can easily independently verify) and business filings currently available on a webpage run by the state of Wyoming are photoshopped?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> While I don't disagree with your observation, I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors. If anything, those are worse offenders to IP protection due to Seiko still producing the copied models versus Rolex long since having moved on from the iconic 5 digit Sub mid case design. I believe there is more potentially lost revenue for Seiko due to these "homages" than to Rolex from Ginault's offerings.
> 
> And, for the record, I own both an authentic Seiko SLA017 and authentic Seiko MM300, and no, I do not own any of those various Chinese copies of those iconic designs.
> 
> ...


let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry

take the time to think about the number of businesses went bankrupt from the sea of quartz watches rushing in sweeping thier clients away. can you imagine how many people lost thier jobs, the number of people who spend years mastering a craft now all of a sudden redundant, unable to work and therefore unable to provide for thier families???

Seiko literally ruined people and we don't even know what the knock on effects for the effected individuals were, (suicide? crime?) we can laugh about it now and I know some of you are but that was some real serious s**t at the time and it lasted decades.

But this conversation never gets had! (and there's nothing new under the sun here at WUS) instead Seiko are looked at as Hero's, pioneers, wearing a Seiko 5 or an SKX is a badge of honour here.

I guess all is fair in love and war.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> While I don't disagree with your observation, I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors. If anything, those are worse offenders to IP protection due to Seiko still producing the copied models versus Rolex long since having moved on from the iconic 5 digit Sub mid case design. I believe there is more potentially lost revenue for Seiko due to these "homages" than to Rolex from Ginault's offerings.
> 
> And, for the record, I own both an authentic Seiko SLA017 and authentic Seiko MM300, and no, I do not own any of those various Chinese copies of those iconic designs.
> 
> ...


Would love it if you'd stop the ad hominem attacks long enough to identify any other watch maker that aligns with Ginault's particular mix of rep to homage with a narrative that is false, misleading, and illegal. You've been remarkably consistent with your disparagement of those of us who take issue with Ginault, and we've proved right.

Consider: you build the first "American Made" movement in maybe two generations, and then abandon it in favor of a troubled Sellita movement? That, right there, should end the conversation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry
> 
> take the time to think about the number of businesses went bankrupt from the sea of quartz watches rushing in sweeping thier clients away. can you imagine how many people lost thier jobs, the number of people who spend years mastering a craft now all of a sudden redundant, unable to work and therefore unable to provide for thier families???
> 
> ...


You're aware that Seiko never patented the quartz movement? That they basically left the door wide open for any and all other watch companies to develop their own, if not just straight up copy Seiko's quartz movement design, with no legal repercussions? And instead of acknowledging that quartz is the future and adopting it, the Swiss stuck their heads in the sand, halted the observatory chronometry trials after Seiko's new Quartz movement dominated it, and banned Seiko (and any non-Swiss watchmakers) from ever competing in the trials again. Sounds to me like the Swiss watch industry was their own worst enemy during the quartz crisis.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Brush diver said:


> All of that can easily be faked. People with some photoshop skills are truly amazing in what they can do today.
> 
> I don't have the time to go back and find the exact post but I do know that one of the administrators, he has a NC location, posted right around that post that the original blog was taken down and if anything that should tell you all you need to know about the validity of the blog or something to that effect.


Suspicious as I am now I entertain the thought that you just registered for this thread.....


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## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> While I don't disagree with your observation, I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors.


I have noticed this also, I think it has to do with the Rolex owners not wanting people to wear a similar watch to theirs, without spending the same cash. Their protest have more to do with protecting their clubs exclusivity, than caring about Rolex IP.

As for Seiko owners, they dont care if someone is wearing a watch that looks like theirs.

Both are clearly just my opinion.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

MX793 said:


> Point 2 is far more concerning to me. While I can forgive some lack of transparency in not wanting to openly associate the new Ginault homages with former TC counterfeits, fraudulent business filings as part of that cover-up and smoke and mirrors is not indicative of someone trying to turn over a leaf and walk the straight and narrow.


This is the part that stinks to high heaven. Can't 'turn over a new leaf' and still act the same way.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

pinkybrain said:


> Because other homage brands are honest about what they are and who they are. I went to WindUp SF and talked to some of the micro brand owners. They're real people, using their real names, and they will be the first to tell you that their watches are made in Asia. They don't hide behind 4 fake names and make up stories about in-house, American made movements.
> 
> If Tsung Chi had just said, "My name is Tsung Chi and I'm making a high quality homage clone, and no, it's not an in-house movement made in the USA" we wouldn't be having this conversation. Frankly, I wouldn't even care that much about crimes committed many years ago (assuming he's no longer committing them, but we don't know because he's a compulsive liar).
> 
> ...


I think we are talking about two different types of individuals. A micro brand owner who makes a somewhat original design (even if it is manufactured in China) is a vastly different person than the guy making knock off Seiko Tuna's or the guy making knock off SKX007's (which, as an aside, makes me wonder about who exactly buys a copy of a $150 watch?).

Those guys, in my opinion, are absolutely taking revenue from Seiko as they are copying current Seiko production models. They are not "honest thieves" in my book at all.

The Ginault false identity accusations are interesting, but I can see why someone who made fakes would want to conceal their true identity.

I also agree with you that it would have been better for this guy to have just abandoned all the previous false fronts when launching the Ginault brand. Maybe he couldn't due to his history? Maybe he just wants anonymity? Who knows.

Regarding the "made in the USA" marketing claim, I didn't see any new information in the blog related to how much of the watches were made in the USA versus overseas. We all have our suspicions. My personal suspicion is the components are likely largely manufactured overseas and maybe finished, polished, and assembled in the USA. Obviously this is far stretch from meeting the legal requirement of "Made in the USA", but I could see how a guy could get overly proud of the amount of USA effort involved. Ginault isn't the first watch company to get slapped for this type of overstatement.

I'm just waiting on what the state of Wyoming does. I have to suspect the people whose identities were used without their permission will demand the State take action to address the situation.

Of all the things he stands accused of, this is probably the one with significant legal consequences.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

bjjkk said:


> I have noticed this also, I think it has to do with the Rolex owners not wanting people to wear a similar watch to theirs, without spending the same cash. .


I proudly wear a Steinhart......I did like the look of the Ginault....but...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

bjjkk said:


> I have noticed this also, I think it has to do with the Rolex owners not wanting people to wear a similar watch to theirs, without spending the same cash. Their protest have more to do with protecting their clubs exclusivity, than caring about Rolex IP.
> 
> As for Seiko owners, they dont care if someone is wearing a watch that looks like theirs.
> 
> Both are clearly just my opinion.


Great point

people are forgetting that Rolex benefits tremendously from reps and homages. it's all free marketing. it increases thier profile and reinforces thier branding.

Great for Rolex not great for the people who have gone out n spent thousands on one.

It also increases the possibility of potential customers buying from Rolex Ad's rather than used.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

You made me laugh.....! Well done...

Rolex might give a toss...about that part you mention...but who knows...


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> If he is in fact Thomas Caddell, whom I remember on Google+ many years ago who got shut down HARD for selling forgeries, then I can also say I remember his pricing.
> 
> They were in the mid-$500 range shipped.
> 
> ...


Why do you feel like the Ginault is overpriced? You can feel like he's making high margins on them, that's fine and very well may be true.

But the watch quality itself can't be overpriced in relation to other watches in the same price range. Eveyone I know says that it is close to Rolex quality and on Tudor's level which is 3x the price of a Ginault. The next step up from Ginault would have to be Monta for 700 more and that's also known for being high quality in its price bracket.

So again, why is the Ginault overpriced?


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## mtheard (May 2, 2016)

So as an un-initiated casual third party, what kind of movements do Ginaults use?


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Good points. Regarding the Seikos, I assume you're talking about knockoffs (same design, different branding) and not counterfeits. Some of the types of micro brands I was referring to do make straight up knockoffs, and I generally wouldn't distinguish between a Rolex knockoff v a Seiko knockoff. (FWIW, I have no personal issues with knockoffs). I would agree that they probably have a different market impact. The Seiko knockoff probably does take revenue from Seiko while the Rolex knockoff does not affect Rolex (to be clear not talking about counterfeits).

I never bought a Ginault or followed this thread too closely, but IIRC their claims regarding the degree to which their movements were "in-house" and American made were pretty clear and detailed and - from my perspective - completely unbelievable.



Ryeguy said:


> I think we are talking about two different types of individuals. A micro brand owner who makes a somewhat original design (even if it is manufactured in China) is a vastly different person than the guy making knock off Seiko Tuna's or the guy making knock off SKX007's (which, as an aside, makes me wonder about who exactly buys a copy of a $150 watch?).
> 
> Those guys, in my opinion, are absolutely taking revenue from Seiko as they are copying current Seiko production models. They are not "honest thieves" in my book at all.
> 
> ...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> Why do you feel like the Ginault is overpriced? You can feel like he's making high margins on them, that's fine and very well may be true.
> 
> But the watch quality itself can't be overpriced in relation to other watches in the same price range. Eveyone I know says that it is close to Rolex quality and on Tudor's level which is 3x the price of a Ginault. The next step up from Ginault would have to be Monta for 700 more and that's also known for being high quality in its price bracket.
> 
> So again, why is the Ginault overpriced?


I say that because I've owned two, plus a Rolex, an Omega, many Seiko's, many Steinhart's, Armida's, Helson, and many other brands. I've been around the block with watches.

Personal experience.

Not here-say. Actual hands-on experience. Ownership.

A movement with zero knowledge of besides whatever they say about it (and completely unable to validate a word they say). No way to really know their origin story besides some shady things we can corroborate on our own from the blog post. Personal dealings with 'John from Ginault' (whom we know isn't named John).

It's overpriced. Put a period on that sentence.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I say that because I've owned two, plus a Rolex, an Omega, many Seiko's, many Steinhart's, Armida's, Helson, and many other brands. I've been around the block with watches.
> 
> Personal experience.
> 
> ...


I still don't see how that's overpriced though? Not having knowledge on a movement (which is invalidated now that it will come with a Selitta SW200) nor not knowing the origin story doesn't diminish the end product.

If the end product it self is to be soley judged for its quality, compared to other pieces in the price point, and the Ginault is found to be higher quality than average, it can not be overpriced.

Not knowing their origin story or something shady or whathaveyou doesn't diminish quality per dollar compared to other watches.

And again, you might have had a point about the movement but the Selitta puts a damper on that.

" Not here-say. Actual hands-on experience. Ownership. "

Plenty of Ginault owners have actual hands on experience and put it on Tudor's level.

They at least give valid explanation why -- not "I own one!"


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry
> 
> take the time to think about the number of businesses went bankrupt from the sea of quartz watches rushing in sweeping thier clients away. can you imagine how many people lost thier jobs, the number of people who spend years mastering a craft now all of a sudden redundant, unable to work and therefore unable to provide for thier families???
> 
> ...


Wow. Interesting take on the quartz crisis.

Anyone advancing technology is evil I guess.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

pinkybrain said:


> Good points. Regarding the Seikos, I assume you're talking about knockoffs (same design, different branding) and not counterfeits. Some of the types of micro brands I was referring to do make straight up knockoffs, and I generally wouldn't distinguish between a Rolex knockoff v a Seiko knockoff. (FWIW, I have no personal issues with knockoffs). I would agree that they probably have a different market impact. The Seiko knockoff probably does take revenue from Seiko while the Rolex knockoff does not affect Rolex (to be clear not talking about counterfeits).
> 
> I never bought a Ginault or followed this thread too closely, but IIRC their claims regarding the degree to which their movements were "in-house" and American made were pretty clear and detailed and - from my perspective - completely unbelievable.


Yes, by knock-offs I am referring to those "homages" with the same design and different branding.

The only issue I have with "homages" or "knock-offs" is when the design inspiration is still in production. If the design inspiration is a retired, no longer in production, model, then I have less of a problem.

The movement claim is highly suspicious, but what got them in trouble was the "Made in the USA" branding on the watch itself.

By their own marketing it was clear that certain components were sourced overseas, so according to FTC regulation the item could not be labeled or marketed as "Made in the USA".

This was a high controversy on this thread about 18 months ago, and Ginault themselves apologized and offered replacement case backs to those who wanted them.

I'm off to go enjoy the remainder of my holiday weekend, but I look forward to seeing what Wyoming does. Of everything brought recently to light, I still think this is the most damning.


----------



## vipereaper30 (Sep 12, 2009)

watchesaresocool said:


> Plenty of Ginault owners have actual hands on experience and put it on Tudor's level.


LOL it's a knock-off don't you think some are going to have optimistic thoughts about their purchase decisions?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I say that because I've owned two, plus a Rolex, an Omega, many Seiko's, many Steinhart's, Armida's, Helson, and many other brands. I've been around the block with watches.
> 
> Personal experience.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, you just made me laugh. You have shown a complete lack of detail attention if you had all these watches and still think the Ginault should play below the $1,500 mark. With the quality of the machined steel (machined, not just injection), bracelet, high gloss black dial, perfectly polished indices, etc.

With regards to the movement, I happen to know a little about movements as I actually regulate and partially service most of my watches. It's an ETA clone, only with better shock absorber, better hairspring, etc. Essentially the equivalent of a chrono grade ETA. How do I know? Because I have opened and seen mine. See? Same factual info as yours, completely opposite result.

So perhaps we should leave facts as facts, and opinions as opinions. Especially yours, because it's not quite complicated to check your previous posts to find out that you had a bad experience with Ginault and you have some beef with them. It's becoming really tiresome to see you whining all the time, you know? I'm sure you have better things to do in your life than mislead people in a watch forum.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Based on all this stuff:

f*** Ginault. 

That is all.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

The people who think Rolex owners care about people wearing a “similar watch” but paying 1/6 of the price are sadly mistaken. Rolex fakes have been around forever. You can buy them for $20 on many street corners. Or you can pay $1500 for one as many here have done. That bothers real Rolex wearers? No. What bothers Rolex wearers (at least some) is a blatant rip off of a classic design especially by someone who use to (or still does) make fake watches and profits from it. 

Also, I saw someone mention that Rolex doesn’t care about fakes because it gives them more attention and more people know about the brand. That’s honestly ridiculous. Rolex actually plays an active part in trying to shut down fakes. They don’t need attention from $20 watches being sold by counterfeit people. They are already arguably the most well known watch brand in the world. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

LowIQ said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > All of that can easily be faked. People with some photoshop skills are truly amazing in what they can do today.
> ...


Well you would be wrong. What was my first posts? It was about titanium watches. I clicked on this thread a day or two later and I guess I am kind of hooked. Such drama! Who knew that Rolex owners would get their panties in such a tight wad over a little competition? I guess the old saying is true; if you come to kill the king, you best make sure he's dead.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Brush diver said:


> Well you would be wrong. What was my first posts? It was about titanium watches. I clicked on this thread a day or two later and I guess I am kind of hooked. Such drama! Who knew that Rolex owners would get their panties in such a tight wad over a little competition? I guess the old saying is true; if you come to kill the king, you best make sure he's dead.


If you think this Ginault is competition to Rolex then you should just close your account now and find a new hobby because your clueless about this one


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Why waste time telling an ostrich the color of the sky?


Why waste time with people who refuse to answer a simple direct question?


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## mtheard (May 2, 2016)

There is a lot of counter-narrative talk against Ginault here. This stuff is going to get censored fast.


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## raptorrapture (Apr 15, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Especially yours, because it's not quite complicated to check your previous posts to find out that you had a bad experience with Ginault and you have some beef with them. It's becoming really tiresome to see you whining all the time, you know? I'm sure you have better things to do in your life than mislead people in a watch forum.


And looking through yours, seems like the majority of your posts have either been on this topic, defending Ginault, or on similar threads defending homage watches. It's clear where the line between IP theft and "inspiration" is for you, and seeing you attack people that feel differently is getting quite tiresome itself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

Does anyone know the specifics on the pre-order invitation? Do you have to submit a partial payment for the watch? I sent an email yesterday and have not received anything back yet. Additionally, does anyone know the exact changes being made from the Ocean Rover I? I think I read that they were doing away with the domed crystal, but what's supply one upon request. What are the advantages to the flat Crystal?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

They use their own clone of an ETA 2824, which they describe like this:
"Ginault Caliber 7275. 25 Red Jewels, Rh45 Rhodium-Copper Alloy Main Plate & Bridge, Blue Steel Screws, GC31 Gears, Nivarox Hairspring, Nivarox Mainspring, WJL Shock Absorber, Date, Hour/Minute/Second Hands, 28,800 BPH, 38 Hours Power Reserve. Cut, Machined, Assembled and Fine Tuned in the United States."
Ginault now offers the option of a "Swiss made" Sellita movement instead ("Swiss made" in quotes, since as has been pointed out many times, the official definition of "Swiss made" would allow for most parts to actually be foreign made).

This was in response to a question about the Ginault movement, but now I'm not seeing that post ...


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Brush diver said:


> Does anyone know the specifics on the pre-order invitation? Do you have to submit a partial payment for the watch? I sent an email yesterday and have not received anything back yet. Additionally, does anyone know the exact changes being made from the Ocean Rover I? I think I read that they were doing away with the domed crystal, but what's supply one upon request. What are the advantages to the flat Crystal?




















I paid in full on the pre-order, but I think they are now allowing you to just make a deposit, although I'm not sure how much. The benefit of the flat is the watch will wear slimmer, and they are using AR on the flat, whereas the dome will be without AR

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Avo said:


> This was in response to a question about the Ginault movement, but now I'm not seeing that post ...


Looks like the cleanup crew are back!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Bradjhomes (Jun 18, 2011)

Avo said:


> This was in response to a question about the Ginault movement, but now I'm not seeing that post ...


This one?


mtheard said:


> So as an un-initiated casual third party, what kind of movements do Ginaults use?


or this one?


eric72 said:


> You know there is other copies of 2824 out there? SW200 is. And the STP 1-11 is as well.
> 
> So what are you talking about? Is he copying as well the ETA brand name somewhere? No?


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Mr Auto said:


> Looks like the cleanup crew are back!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I hate to disappoint you, but we haven't removed anything beyond a few rule 2 and rule 7 violations (politics, profanity, and personal attacks).


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I was replying to the one by mtheard. I lost track of it in the flood of posts to this thread ...


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> I find it curious how the Ginault brand brings out the pitchforks while all those Seiko "homage" threads roll on without so much as a peep from our WUS self appointed intellectual property hall monitors.


It would be interesting if someone tracked down what else goes on at the factories that make those "sharkey" abominations.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I find it amusing that, with all the problems and injustice in the world, so many are focused on _watches that look like other watches_ as the great evil that must be confronted ...


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Avo said:


> I find it amusing that, with all the problems and injustice in the world, so many are focused on _watches that look like other watches_ as the great evil that must be confronted ...


Exactly


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## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)




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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry
> 
> take the time to think about the number of businesses went bankrupt from the sea of quartz watches rushing in sweeping thier clients away. can you imagine how many people lost thier jobs, the number of people who spend years mastering a craft now all of a sudden redundant, unable to work and therefore unable to provide for thier families???
> 
> ...


Are you really comparing an advancement in technology that changed the landscape of the watch industry as Seiko ruining lives? What does any of that have to do with this?


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## cortman (Sep 20, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Have Rolex suffered financially as a result of this man's actions?? I doubt it... they're still a billion dollar company the last time I checked and I'm pretty certain the members of the Hans Wilsdorf foundation have no problem putting food on the table or keeping lights on.


That's the wrong argument against counterfeits. Who cares about Rolex's financials, it's the poor guy who plunks down years of savings for what he thinks is the real deal, only to get scammed and have his investment literally vanish in front of him.
THAT's where the real evil of counterfeits/replicas is.


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## 3005 (Apr 10, 2015)

Avo said:


> I find it amusing that, with all the problems and injustice in the world, so many are focused on _watches that look like other watches_ as the great evil that must be confronted ...


So we're not allowed to discuss an issue related to watches (a shared, mutual hobby here) unless we've put in our requisite amount of time volunteering at the soup kitchen or solving other worldly problems? :think: Or we're not allowed to care about both issues? Hell, why discuss _any_ lesser problems in the world as long as we've got world hunger and social injustice?

I generally don't mind homages, but this argument is just silly.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I say that because I've owned two, plus a Rolex, an Omega, many Seiko's, many Steinhart's, Armida's, Helson, and many other brands. I've been around the block with watches.
> 
> Personal experience.
> 
> ...


Dude you change your opinions as fast as the wind blows so sorry your take on value isn't really defined as solid. Moving on.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

cortman said:


> That's the wrong argument against counterfeits. Who cares about Rolex's financials, it's the poor guy who plunks down years of savings for what he thinks is the real deal, only to get scammed and have his investment literally vanish in front of him.
> THAT's where the real evil of counterfeits/replicas is.


It's the buyers job to do his/her due dilligence before purchasing something of substantial value especially a used item. Rolex have AD's for this very reason. It doesn't make it right but the buyer also has to take some responsibility in a situation like that.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Karlisnet (Feb 20, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> This is, by far, the best post of the last twenty pages.


Yes, we see. Just a quick check of your 90 post records (in three years) show almost all of them are on two Ginault's threads, just a couple about Steinhart, and few more about your knowledge in fakes -and how difficult would be to differentiate them from Rolex (sic)-. We understood your point and what you are doing here now.

But don't worry. You are not the only one.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> I still don't see how that's overpriced though? Not having knowledge on a movement (which is invalidated now that it will come with a Selitta SW200) nor not knowing the origin story doesn't diminish the end product.
> 
> If the end product it self is to be soley judged for its quality, compared to other pieces in the price point, and the Ginault is found to be higher quality than average, it can not be overpriced.
> 
> ...


I'll tell you why. Because the owner perpetrated FRAUD on every level, up to and including his name, origin, history, and all of the in-between.

He's an habitual liar and a fraudster. If you feel cozy giving your money to a thief, you do you. Me? I want no part in his illegal shenanigans. He's a complete fraud and should be jailed (in my opinion).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> With all due respect, you just made me laugh. You have shown a complete lack of detail attention if you had all these watches and still think the Ginault should play below the $1,500 mark. With the quality of the machined steel (machined, not just injection), bracelet, high gloss black dial, perfectly polished indices, etc.
> 
> With regards to the movement, I happen to know a little about movements as I actually regulate and partially service most of my watches. It's an ETA clone, only with better shock absorber, better hairspring, etc. Essentially the equivalent of a chrono grade ETA. How do I know? Because I have opened and seen mine. See? Same factual info as yours, completely opposite result.
> 
> So perhaps we should leave facts as facts, and opinions as opinions. Especially yours, because it's not quite complicated to check your previous posts to find out that you had a bad experience with Ginault and you have some beef with them. It's becoming really tiresome to see you whining all the time, you know? I'm sure you have better things to do in your life than mislead people in a watch forum.


One of the two I owned had a bad movement. They replaced it, but at first tried to deny it had issues.....yet after my careful and detailed explanation to them, they somehow *magically* had already installed a new movement 'on their own dime'.

Yeah right......that wasn't shady AT ALL!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> With all due respect, you just made me laugh. You have shown a complete lack of detail attention if you had all these watches and still think the Ginault should play below the $1,500 mark. With the quality of the machined steel (machined, not just injection), bracelet, high gloss black dial, perfectly polished indices, etc.
> 
> With regards to the movement, I happen to know a little about movements as I actually regulate and partially service most of my watches. It's an ETA clone, only with better shock absorber, better hairspring, etc. Essentially the equivalent of a chrono grade ETA. How do I know? Because I have opened and seen mine. See? Same factual info as yours, completely opposite result.
> 
> So perhaps we should leave facts as facts, and opinions as opinions. Especially yours, because it's not quite complicated to check your previous posts to find out that you had a bad experience with Ginault and you have some beef with them. It's becoming really tiresome to see you whining all the time, you know? I'm sure you have better things to do in your life than mislead people in a watch forum.


I don't have a beef with Ginault. I always knew something was off. Intuition. When you do what I do for a living and meet as many people as I do, rarely am I wrong about people.

This smelled from the word 'go'.

Did I have a great experience with watch number two? Yep. Balanced out the sh!tshow with watch number one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> With all due respect, you just made me laugh. You have shown a complete lack of detail attention if you had all these watches and still think the Ginault should play below the $1,500 mark. With the quality of the machined steel (machined, not just injection), bracelet, high gloss black dial, perfectly polished indices, etc.
> 
> With regards to the movement, I happen to know a little about movements as I actually regulate and partially service most of my watches. It's an ETA clone, only with better shock absorber, better hairspring, etc. Essentially the equivalent of a chrono grade ETA. How do I know? Because I have opened and seen mine. See? Same factual info as yours, completely opposite result.
> 
> So perhaps we should leave facts as facts, and opinions as opinions. Especially yours, because it's not quite complicated to check your previous posts to find out that you had a bad experience with Ginault and you have some beef with them. It's becoming really tiresome to see you whining all the time, you know? I'm sure you have better things to do in your life than mislead people in a watch forum.


ME mislead people? Holy hell...that's hilarious!!!! Ginault has been PROVEN fraudulent and somehow I'M the liar here.......OMG! You need to grab a mic on open mic night. You'll be a hit.

Here you're a miss...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I'll tell you why. Because the owner perpetrated FRAUD on every level, up to and including his name, origin, history, and all of the in-between.
> 
> He's an habitual liar and a fraudster. If you feel cozy giving your money to a thief, you do you. Me? I want no part in his illegal shenanigans. He's a complete fraud and should be jailed (in my opinion).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think your argument on why not to get one at all is invalid. If that's how you feel, I can understand and empathize.

I think calling the watches themselves overpriced over outside shenanigans is invalid however.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> I don't think your argument on why not to get one at all is invalid. If that's how you feel, I can understand and empathize.
> 
> I think calling the watches themselves overpriced over outside shenanigans is invalid however.


Ok - same supplier as TC (same guy, same sources) and he retailed them for $500. Ginault, same watch, same ownership, same manufacturer, and just three years newer, all of a sudden they're $1,499.

You do the math.

Zero history as a company, shady practices as we see, and yet somehow they're worth that amount of money?

Let me know when you plan to purchase ANYTHING. I want to be that Salesperson.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Ok - same supplier as TC (same guy, same sources) and he retailed them for $500. Ginault, same watch, same ownership, same manufacturer, and just three years newer, all of a sudden they're $1,499.
> \


So by this statement I assume you've had a chance to handle the $500 fake and compared it with the OR1? I can guarantee not the same. Enamel dial just one obvious difference. Look at other brands that offer enamel dials and you'll think $1499 is quite the bargain.
So, NOT the same watch.

Owners of pre-ceramic Rolex subs and OR1's say there is very little to separate them vis-a-vis F&F.


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

So I just read the post man what a nail biter. All I have to say is RIP Ginault 


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Avo said:


> I find it amusing that, with all the problems and injustice in the world, so many are focused on _watches that look like other watches_ as the great evil that must be confronted ...


This is a watch forum after all..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Ok - same supplier as TC (same guy, same sources) and he retailed them for $500. Ginault, same watch, same ownership, same manufacturer, and just three years newer, all of a sudden they're $1,499.
> 
> You do the math.
> 
> ...


Looks like you own two ocean rovers what do you plan to do with them ?

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## Ian_61 (Mar 13, 2018)

Bradjhomes said:


> Mr Auto said:
> 
> 
> > let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry
> ...


+1. Interesting thing is his choice of handle. I'm sure Henry Ford had a much greater impact. Won't somebody think of the farriers!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> So by this statement I assume you've had a chance to handle the $500 fake and compared it with the OR1? I can guarantee not the same. Enamel dial just one obvious difference. Look at other brands that offer enamel dials and you'll think $1499 is quite the bargain.
> So, NOT the same watch.
> 
> Owners of pre-ceramic Rolex subs and OR1's say there is very little to separate them vis-a-vis F&F.


Explain in detail how YOU can guarantee (you chose that word so I'm holding you to it) they're not the same?

And the dial is worth an additional $1,000?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

tynan.nida said:


> Looks like you own two ocean rovers what do you plan to do with them ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Past tense. Sold them. Explained why on this thread in detail.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Past tense. Sold them. Explained why on this thread in detail.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Too many posts to sift through

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

tynan.nida said:


> Too many posts to sift through
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not wasting my time re-posting because you refuse to search.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Ok - same supplier as TC (same guy, same sources) and he retailed them for $500. Ginault, same watch, same ownership, same manufacturer, and just three years newer, all of a sudden they're $1,499.
> 
> You do the math.
> 
> ...


Do you think a company who makes Tudor quality level watches who have no history should be allowed to only cap off their watches at $500? Every watch that is above $500 is because of brand reputation?

Also, I'd assume running a replica business costs a lot less overhead than opening your own brand and marketing that brand. High end watches tend to charge you more than what the watch might cost because of all the money spent on testing, marketing, configuring new things, etc.

I'd imagine making your own blend of Rolex homage that is not a 1 to 1 replica and is unique to your own brand you are building up costs a lot more to run and produce than a high quality Rolex rep. 
So how you get upset at him charging more for increased costs in making his own watch vs a mass produced replica is a little weird to me. And the fact that the watch quality still punches above the price point it's selling at....

Then there's the point that he builds them in the US, while his reps used to be built in China. He may have sourced some parts from China, but the fact that he builds them here would justify some price increase, would it not?

How about an extra amount of charge for the new bracelet in the OR2, the new triple layerAR coating, the new bezel action, the fact that it has an authentic reputable Sellita movement in now, on top of all the goodies the OR1 has? TC's replicas obviously don't have this let alone the OR1

How can putting in a Selitta alone command only 500USD?

On top of being finished to Tudor level standards, seems like a bargain at 1-1.5k to me. I don't see how the OR2 is overpriced.


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I'm not wasting my time re-posting because you refuse to search.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol No need to assume you are being attacked, I was saying that I must have missed it in all the posts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Haven’t seen the forum so up in arms since that guy ghosted on ppl with thouse brawl Fisk we cases


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Haven't seen the forum so up in arms since that guy ghosted on ppl with thouse brawl Fisk we cases


Hahahahaha

Didn't know you were multi-lingual!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Brush diver said:


> Well you would be wrong. What was my first posts? It was about titanium watches. I clicked on this thread a day or two later and I guess I am kind of hooked. Such drama! Who knew that Rolex owners would get their panties in such a tight wad over a little competition? I guess the old saying is true; if you come to kill the king, you best make sure he's dead.


I do not own a Rolex and never will.....kind of a religious thing...you, on the other hand are only in this thread....plus the one you started, the one you do not have any interest in...
.


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## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

Zakalwe said:


> Decent society allows people who've committed crimes and misdeeds a second chance, if they serve an appropriate punishment and/or they repent.
> 
> TC/Ginault has done neither.


Wow. That is some fantasyland stuff right there. Where is this "decent society"?


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

There is nothing wrong with being multilingual...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

LowIQ said:


> There is nothing wrong with being multilingual...


You got that low iq, so I'll explain:

I was joking. Get it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Haven't seen the forum so up in arms since that guy ghosted on ppl with thouse brawl Fisk we cases


FWIW, I've been around long enough to remember the Corvus Bradley. Fricker-made German case, proven authentic ETA movement, very well done dial.

It is a fantastic looking watch I wouldn't be caught dead wearing.

I don't think the Ginault is in the same category yet, but the jury is still out.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> Do you think a company who makes Tudor quality level watches who have no history should be allowed to only cap off their watches at $500? Every watch that is above $500 is because of brand reputation?
> 
> Also, I'd assume running a replica business costs a lot less overhead than opening your own brand and marketing that brand. High end watches tend to charge you more than what the watch might cost because of all the money spent on testing, marketing, configuring new things, etc.
> 
> ...


Are you taking a proven liar's word that he builds in the US?

Tell me you're not serious.....

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know the specifics on the pre-order invitation? Do you have to submit a partial payment for the watch? I sent an email yesterday and have not received anything back yet. Additionally, does anyone know the exact changes being made from the Ocean Rover I? I think I read that they were doing away with the domed crystal, but what's supply one upon request. What are the advantages to the flat Crystal?
> ...


Thanks so much for the very thorough answer. I'm not interested in a date model so it would be one of the watches from line one if I do order. I guess I'll wait for a response from them and go from there but this gets me I had start. I was hoping that they would have put a lock bracelet like I see on some of the other divers. I mean come on, if they can put one on the Seiko they can put one on this right? Other than that, it sounds all pretty good. I'm just learning watch terms here. Not really a collector or an aficianado even but I do like watches. A lot!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Are you taking a proven liar's word that he builds in the US?
> 
> Tell me you're not serious.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Who knows. Isn't that illegal otherwise? Regardless, I'll give you that point for the sake of the argument. I think the rest of my post is a solid argument for how it can't be overpriced. Feel free to critique or rebuttal the rest.


----------



## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

LowIQ said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > Well you would be wrong. What was my first posts? It was about titanium watches. I clicked on this thread a day or two later and I guess I am kind of hooked. Such drama! Who knew that Rolex owners would get their panties in such a tight wad over a little competition? I guess the old saying is true; if you come to kill the king, you best make sure he's dead.
> ...


<Looks around in disbelief>
You serious Clark? Who cares? Yes I started a different thread and gathered lots of information because I was very interested in a titanium watch. That was until I found this beauty. Now I'm very interested in a Ginault. If they shut down tomorrow, I would probably buy Helson sharkmaster. Mido titanium a distant third.


----------



## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

Everyone in this thread seems to be getting along so well and enriching and enjoying themselves so I apologize for my intrusion. But I just wanted to add that I decided to check out Youtube and see if there is anything about the recent Ginault drama there. Only one person has made a video about it thus far. And that person is John McManus. The very same Johhny McAnus of Kickstarter scam notoriety and from the links below. I just found it all quite rich and wanted to share. Maybe he can see the irony because he doesn't really offer much in the way of judgement or opinion on the situation as much as he does summarize or recap the article/blog post. Be kind and enjoy your weekend folks. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/mcmanus-amphibian-4634767.html
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?433306-McManus-Watches-they-re-back
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...c-irish-dive-watch?ref=discovery&term=mcmanus


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

hwa said:


> Hahahahaha
> 
> Didn't know you were multi-lingual!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fighting autocorrect trying to remember the name of that guy that only delivered half of the watches and it turned out to be a catalog case


----------



## Rocky555 (Nov 22, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> Are you taking a proven liar's word that he builds in the US?
> 
> Tell me you're not serious.....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If he builds them in USA, then I am Donald Trump.

By built maybe he just means putting the bracelet on.


----------



## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

LOL Who'd thunk when something looks and stinks like a turd, it's actually a turd?


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Pics' time? ;-)


----------



## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rocky555 said:


> If he builds them in USA, then I am Donald Trump.
> 
> By built maybe he just means putting the bracelet on.


Hand built in "America" he doesn't specify which America. Likely made by Colombian drug lords in the rainforest, trying to diversify their business.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

One more


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> One more


I'm afraid it's up to you to keep this a pictorial thread. Thank you!

I never seen people beat a dead horse so badly. Ouch!

I sold my 1st one but would love a date, flat sapphire, no clops

Cheers
RD


----------



## kelticSide (Jan 15, 2017)

Ten pages in one day of churn for this model is insane. 

Shows there are plenty of bottoms to fill the seats on their bus.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Riddim Driven said:


> I'm afraid it's up to you to keep this a pictorial thread. Thank you!
> 
> I never seen people beat a dead horse so badly. Ouch!
> 
> ...


I got his back


----------



## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

cwfmon said:


> I got his back


Darn it sure does look good lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

tynan.nida said:


> Darn it sure does look good lol
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks just as good on leather!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> I got his back


Where did you get that beautiful second hand?


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Where did you get that beautiful second hand?


Raffles Time


----------



## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

cwfmon said:


> I got his back


I am sure there are some pictures around, but could you take a picture of the lugs on the 6 oclock side of the case. I would like to see the brushing on the lug tops.


----------



## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

nello said:


> I am sure there are some pictures around, but could you take a picture of the lugs on the 6 oclock side of the case. I would like to see the brushing on the lug tops.


Why? Are you planning on doing your own digital forensics and compare it to a TC? Lol! Seriously though, use google image search. No shortage of pics out there.


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

If you own one, it's time to pic out on Ginault...


----------



## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

cwfmon said:


> Why? Are you planning on doing your own digital forensics and compare it to a TC? Lol! Seriously though, use google image search. No shortage of pics out there.


I have done my forensics on the watch case already. I just wanted to see another example from someone who currently has a Ginault in hand. No worries.


----------



## AMargerison (Nov 16, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> If you own one, it's time to pic out on Ginault...


Okie doke









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

nello said:


> I have done my forensics on the watch case already. I just wanted to see another example from someone who currently has a Ginault in hand. No worries.


What's the verdict on the case?

Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## 123Blueface (Jun 11, 2015)

Anyone have a photo of kissing their Ginault?


----------



## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Is there a variation of a Ginault with a gilt indexes on a black bezel? I only see gilt on blue.


----------



## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

watchesaresocool said:


> Is there a variation of a Ginault with a gilt indexes on a black bezel? I only see gilt on blue.


I really think they should make this (I am a huge fan of gilt) but there is only the Blue gilt aluminum option. With the ORII ceramic option the blue has silver indexes and there is no gilt option which is a big bummer in my opinion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

badgerracer said:


> I really think they should make this (I am a huge fan of gilt) but there is only the Blue gilt aluminum option. With the ORII ceramic option the blue has silver indexes and there is no gilt option which is a big bummer in my opinion
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's the reason I most likely will be sticking with aluminum for the OR2... I really like the blue gilt bezel and there's no ceramic for that. I have a few ceramic bezels already and while I used to prefer them over aluminum, I'm starting to swing the other way... maybe due to not having any...


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)




----------



## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Looking for a good AR crystal for the OR. Who has experience with one ?


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ready for Sunday roast!


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DutchElite said:


> Looking for a good AR crystal for the OR. Who has experience with one ?


I'm considering this one: https://www.dsxtals.com/products/rolex295cblackhole


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm considering this one: https://www.dsxtals.com/products/rolex295cblackhole











This is just for the cyclops


----------



## skorN83 (Sep 20, 2010)

A lot of chat about a watch that is pretty boring.

Speaks volumes that Ginault has not presented a counterview.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

skorN83 said:


> A lot of chat about a watch that is pretty boring.
> 
> Speaks volumes that Ginault has not presented a counterview.


They can't. Painted into a corner.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

skorN83 said:


> A lot of chat about a watch that is pretty boring.
> 
> Speaks volumes that Ginault has not presented a counterview.


I think you like it...why else would you be in here.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

skorN83 said:


> A lot of chat about a watch that is pretty boring.
> 
> Speaks volumes that Ginault has not presented a counterview.


So boring that you had to answer in a thread with more than 4.000 posts and 600.000 visits... ;-)

For your entertainment:


----------



## manofrolex (Jul 9, 2012)

Interesting thread about a brand most thought was suspicious from the get go....w all the nonsensical narrative on the G web site.

I am not sure what that means going forward for the brand and for folks willing to spend more than 1500 bucks on a less than reputable brand but by all accounts a brand that seem to produce a very nice watch. Do you ignore the shady crap and purchase it saying heck it is well made w a clone 2824 or you blow them off . I am not interested in G but this is an interesting story to say the least...


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes, it'll be interesting to see where this story goes next. The current furore will make or break them. If their legit business is to continue it will need greater transparency. I think the latest revelations will cause people to baulk at the price being asked for the ORII.
As much as i love my Ginault OR1 there is no way I'd pay anything close to retail for it. I paid $700 with the discount offered then and at that price it is good value based solely on the F&F, timekeeping accuracy etc etc.


----------



## Ticktocker (Oct 27, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> I think you like it...why else would you be in here.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


It's always fascinating and entertaining to see just how big of a fan base watch companies have even when presented with negative aspects of the company. You can find threads like these about other watch brands too. It's hilarious!


----------



## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Yes, it'll be interesting to see where this story goes next. The current furore will make or break them. If their legit business is to continue it will need greater transparency. I think the latest revelations will cause people to baulk at the price being asked for the ORII.
> As much as i love my Ginault OR1 there is no way I'd pay anything close to retail for it. I paid $700 with the discount offered then and at that price it is good value based solely on the F&F, timekeeping accuracy etc etc.


I agree that the eventual $1500 for no date and $1700 for a date model is ambitious. But at the $1039 pre-order price for the no date that I paid I am happy. Especially with the upgrades over the ORI and now a more reputable and serviceable movement. Now I just need to find the patience for the September-ish delivery

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bombora (Apr 1, 2012)

Great, i need another ubiquitous looking timepiece.


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

What do they say. Better to shine a light, than curse the darkness. b-) I'll hoist the caution flag as well, for the leery ones. :-d


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

jmanlay said:


> Interesting thread about a brand most thought was suspicious from the get go....w all the nonsensical narrative on the G web site.
> 
> I am not sure what that means going forward for the brand and for folks willing to spend more than 1500 bucks on a less than reputable brand but by all accounts a brand that seem to produce a very nice watch. Do you ignore the shady crap and purchase it saying heck it is well made w a clone 2824 or you blow them off . I am not interested in G but this is an interesting story to say the least...


"It's a show about nothing" ;-)


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> Yes, it'll be interesting to see where this story goes next. The current furore will make or break them. If their legit business is to continue it will need greater transparency. I think the latest revelations will cause people to baulk at the price being asked for the ORII.
> As much as i love my Ginault OR1 there is no way I'd pay anything close to retail for it. I paid $700 with the discount offered then and at that price it is good value based solely on the F&F, timekeeping accuracy etc etc.


They literally couldn't pay me to wear one. What a joke of a brand and owner.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

City74 said:


> They literally couldn't pay me to wear one. What a joke of a brand and owner.


Everyone is welcome to their opinion


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

City74 said:


> They literally couldn't pay me to wear one. What a joke of a brand and owner.


Looking at threads for watches you hate and insulting the owners. What an interesting way to express hobbyist enthusiasm.


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Belloc said:


> Looking at threads for watches you hate and insulting the owners. What an interesting way to express hobbyist enthusiasm.


If you'd like I can also post in the Bremont forums


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> This is just for the cyclops


They also do full AR in the whole crystal, check their products section. I am considering that one because its similar to what Rolex has, which has that nice black hole effect.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Belloc said:


> Looking at threads for watches you hate and insulting the owners. What an interesting way to express hobbyist enthusiasm.


And thats why the ignore button was invented


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Belloc said:


> Looking at threads for watches you hate and insulting the owners. What an interesting way to express hobbyist enthusiasm.


He's entitled to his opinion and the ability to express it. Are you telling him otherwise?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> They also do full AR in the whole crystal, check their products section. I am considering that one because its similar to what Rolex has, which has that nice black hole effect.


Thanks. Looked at it, but seems that they are for crystals with cyclops.


----------



## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> As much as i love my Ginault OR1 there is no way I'd pay anything close to retail for it. I paid $700 with the discount offered then and at that price it is good value based solely on the F&F, timekeeping accuracy etc etc.


Serious question here and I'm not defending anyone, but what would you buy in its place? What $700 watch is the equivalent of the Ginalt in looks, quality and finishing? I'm very interested in this watch and I'm looking to buy the G2 but I don't want to waste my money. I thought that I had researched all the comparable options mentioned in the mini threads here on WUS, but maybe I missed something.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> Serious question here and I'm not defending anyone, but what would you buy in its place? What $700 watch is the equivalent of the Ginalt in looks, quality and finishing? I'm very interested in this watch and I'm looking to buy the G2 but I don't want to waste my money. I thought that I had researched all the comparable options mentioned in the mini threads here on WUS, but maybe I missed something.


To be honest I don't think anything touches the Ginault F&F and design at $700 new. I looked at Steinhart Ocean One but found it lacking and too big.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Brush diver said:


> Serious question here and I'm not defending anyone, but what would you buy in its place? What $700 watch is the equivalent of the Ginalt in looks, quality and finishing? I'm very interested in this watch and I'm looking to buy the G2 but I don't want to waste my money. I thought that I had researched all the comparable options mentioned in the mini threads here on WUS, but maybe I missed something.


Something that isn't a Rolex clone with a stolen heritage.

That's what.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Something that isn't a Rolex clone with a stolen heritage.
> 
> That's what.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Do you realise the name of this thread is CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN? You are a grown up man and I don't want to lecture you, but do you really think it's normal to just come in to say these things? Would you go to a Manchester United association just to chant Manchester City hymns (or whatever is the equivalent in your land)?

You sir have zero manners and are just embarrassing yourself by posting these kind of comments in this thread.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Do you realise the name of this thread is CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN? You are a grown up man and I don't want to lecture you, but do you really think it's normal to just come in to say these things? Would you go to a Manchester United association just to chant Manchester City hymns (or whatever is the equivalent in your land)?
> 
> You sir have zero manners and are just embarrassing yourself by posting these kind of comments in this thread.


You're just wasting your breath. This guy has a vendetta and spewing constant vitriol is just tiresome.


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Do you realise the name of this thread is CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN? You are a grown up man and I don't want to lecture you, but do you really think it's normal to just come in to say these things? Would you go to a Manchester United association just to chant Manchester City hymns (or whatever is the equivalent in your land)?
> 
> You sir have zero manners and are just embarrassing yourself by posting these kind of comments in this thread.


Hes a troll mate that's what they do. Pay him no mind.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

kovy71 said:


> What's the verdict on the case?
> 
> Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


The movement, case movement holder, etc. were already covered in the pictures I saw briefly in the blog. I have always suspected this is a TC case due to the finish(exterior) as well. 
If someone wants to post a pic of the six oclock lug tops in even lighting, I will show you. I don't think it would be allowed to show pics of a TC case that "proves" the "flaw" is the same on several cases I have seen personally.

On another note, I don't care that he made replica rolex in the past. I care about the lies that he seems to be telling now.

Edit: I put "proves" in quotes. I would not call it proof in my case. Just a hunch from past experience.


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

nello said:


> The movement, case movement holder, etc. were already covered in the pictures I saw briefly in the blog. I have always suspected this is a TC case due to the finish(exterior) as well.
> If someone wants to post a pic of the six oclock lug tops in even lighting, I will show you. I don't think it would be allowed to show pics of a TC case that "proves" the "flaw" is the same on several cases I have seen personally.
> 
> On another note, I don't care that he made replica rolex in the past. I care about the lies that he seems to be telling now.


I think weve all seen enough to come to our conclusions no more investigating needed at this point.

If your concerened etc just walk away mate there's plenty more watch makers out there for you.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

Dec1968 said:


> He's entitled to his opinion and the ability to express it. Are you telling him otherwise?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm entitled to my opinion and the ability to express it. Are you telling me otherwise?


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Dec1968 said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > Serious question here and I'm not defending anyone, but what would you buy in its place? What $700 watch is the equivalent of the Ginalt in looks, quality and finishing? I'm very interested in this watch and I'm looking to buy the G2 but I don't want to waste my money. I thought that I had researched all the comparable options mentioned in the mini threads here on WUS, but maybe I missed something.
> ...


You're a knowledgeable "sub" WIS. Give an example for the guy. Remember back when Steinhart was the #1 sub cloner 15 yrs ago

I don't know if we've come a long way or not. ?


----------



## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> I think weve all seen enough to come to our conclusions no more investigating needed at this point.
> 
> If your concerened etc just walk away mate there's plenty more watch makers out there for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


No concern. I asked for a specific picture from a member who had just posted some. The pitchforks came out (seemingly in jest) at that point. I don't care either way.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

According to the blog by deepdweller, what I find more curious, is that a long time member and a mod have been listed on the Wyoming articles of Incorporation, with these two people being listed as business partners of Tsung Chi. Is the response/defense that their names were listed and used illegally and without consent?


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

drttown said:


> used illegally and without consent?


This


----------



## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Do you realise the name of this thread is CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN? You are a grown up man and I don't want to lecture you, but do you really think it's normal to just come in to say these things? Would you go to a Manchester United association just to chant Manchester City hymns (or whatever is the equivalent in your land)?
> 
> You sir have zero manners and are just embarrassing yourself by posting these kind of comments in this thread.


No, what's embarrassing is that you people pay for a watch from a known fake watch maker and constant liar and POS.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> Do you realise the name of this thread is CLASSIC SUBMARINER LOVERS - GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER 181070GSLN? You are a grown up man and I don't want to lecture you, but do you really think it's normal to just come in to say these things? Would you go to a Manchester United association just to chant Manchester City hymns (or whatever is the equivalent in your land)?
> 
> You sir have zero manners and are just embarrassing yourself by posting these kind of comments in this thread.


Zero manners for expressing my opinion being a two-time Ginault owner?

Are you effing joking? If your feelings are so sensitive that a negative comment on a watch offends you, then there are bigger issues.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> You're just wasting your breath. This guy has a vendetta and spewing constant vitriol is just tiresome.


I have no vendetta. I speak my mind. Put a period on that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Hes a troll mate that's what they do. Pay him no mind.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


A troll for not liking the brand after ownership or two variants? Hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You guys are way too sensitive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

...I was about to try to defend you as not being a troll, but you beat me to it!


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Something that isn't a Rolex clone with a stolen heritage.
> 
> That's what.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Why would you say something like this if you've owned 2? You purchased "a rolex clone with a stolen heritage" not once...TWICE and now you wanna act all high n mighty when someone genuinely needs assistance? That's trolling mate...

If you still have an axe to grind which clearly you do feel free to start a thread of your own. You can invite all your friends and together you can all cry and complain to eachother about the atrocities committed by watchmakers.

Leave the rest of the people here to enjoy thier OR's or share thier interest, excitement or curiosity which is what this thread was intended for.

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

I vote the thread be closed!!


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> I vote the thread be closed!!


Why should that happen? No one is forcing anyone to open this thread and read the content.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Something that isn't a Rolex clone with a stolen heritage.
> 
> That's what.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You praised homages and ginault for years. You can't just bash people and watches you praised. Not only that you can certainly not like a watch and not like a company and refrain from attacking those who do.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Why would you say something like this if you've owned 2? You purchased "a rolex clone with a stolen heritage" not once...TWICE and now you wanna act all high n mighty when someone genuinely needs assistance? That's trolling mate...
> 
> If you still have an axe to grind which clearly you do feel free to start a thread of your own. You can invite all your friends and together you can all cry and complain to eachother about the atrocities committed by watchmakers.
> 
> ...


I didn't know before I bought them. Obviously. This brand is what turned me OFF the homage market. Completely. I explained that in full earlier on in the thread.

Now seeing the overwhelming evidence is all ANY reasonable person should need to RUN from this brand and the perpetrator known as Tsung Chi/John McMurtry/Thomas Caddell/Charles Ginault (all the same singular person).

You're more than welcome to find it and read up on it. I'm not doing the work for you. You're a grown man. Act like one.

WE ALL get to share our opinions. If you don't like mine, that's why there's an ignore button.

Unless you somehow like the drama, and to be honest, it's kind of looking like you enjoy the drama.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> You praised homages and ginault for years. You can't just bash people and watches you praised.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I most certainly CAN bash the brand and the watch. I'm not bashing a singular person.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

I got one used from a YouTuber and knew there was something off but I wanted to see what is about. Closest I get to seeing a replica and see how close they can be

So the co is Bs but they made a real nice piece of kit

The question is say Steinhart who has to make a new piece of art in the style of or to copy so close different skill sets and different lines in the sand


----------



## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Porsche993 said:


> Why should that happen? No one is forcing anyone to open this thread and read the content.


Because the thread has become toxic and full of vitriol and disdain. There's insults, rudeness, conjecture, accusations. I certainly don't know what this is all about. I as many others do is click on the thread to see photos about the watch, and now to see how the new release is moving along.

The thread started out with a bunch of hoopla over this watch and it's build origin. Then all the knuckleheads piled on and said Kenya ;-)

Threads have been closed much faster for this kind of deterioration. Are you enjoying all this? I'm not! That's why you close / lock a thread. It's reached the very bottom now. There's nothing left to enjoy if this keeps up.

No offense but it's a bit ridiculous to say people don't have to click on the thread.... it's been running for months & months. Folks are gonna click on this and think were all frickin' nuts. It's bad for WatchUseek as a forum actually.

That's just how I see it. It's very disappointing to see this to me. Takes away from the pleasure of the whole point.


----------



## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Back to the OR2. Anybody opting for the Ginault 7275? My mind's still pretty split between it and the Sellita


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> Because the thread has become toxic and full of vitriol and disdain. There's insults, rudeness, conjecture, accusations. I certainly don't know what this is all about. I as many others do is click on the thread to see photos about the watch, and now to see how the new release is moving along.
> 
> The thread started out with a bunch of hoopla over this watch and it's build origin. Then all the knuckleheads piled on and said Kenya ;-)
> 
> ...


Don't agree. There are only a couple of Debbie Downers and they persist in regurgitating their vitriol. A new thread would attract the same kind of comments and contributions so whats the point.

In other news, Guy @ JustBlueFish weighs in with his comments:


----------



## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

acheongtk said:


> Back to the OR2. Anybody opting for the Ginault 7275? My mind's still pretty split between it and the Sellita


I say 7275. Selitta is good but from what I can gather they put a lot of work in the 7275 so i think is as good if not better than 2824-2 top grade. All Gen 1 with 7275 have been good, no issues reported.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

marinemaster said:


> I say 7275. Selitta is good but from what I can gather they put a lot of work in the 7275 so i think is as good if not better than 2824-2 top grade. All Gen 1 with 7275 have been good, no issues reported.


Not true. There are several reports of 7275 failures repaired under warranty. Not unusual but its misleading to say that there have been no issues reported. Mine has been a solid performer for over 2 years and I wear it daily as my beater.


----------



## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Not true. There are several reports of 7275 failures repaired under warranty. Not unusual but its misleading to say that there have been no issues reported. Mine has been a solid performer for over 2 years and I wear it daily as my beater.


Safe to say generally they are pretty helpful when it comes to warranty. Yeap no brand is perfect even for Rolex. My Sub Cal. 3135 had issues too when I first got it went back and forth twice before it was fixed


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Not true. There are several reports of 7275 failures repaired under warranty. Not unusual but its misleading to say that there have been no issues reported. Mine has been a solid performer for over 2 years and I wear it daily as my beater.


Safe to say generally they are pretty helpful when it comes to warranty. Yeap no brand is perfect even for Rolex. My Sub Cal. 3135 had issues too when I first got it went back and forth twice before it was fixed


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## mda13x (Apr 30, 2010)

Riddim Driven said:


> Because the thread has become toxic and full of vitriol and disdain. There's insults, rudeness, conjecture, accusations. I certainly don't know what this is all about. I as many others do is click on the thread to see photos about the watch, and now to see how the new release is moving along.
> 
> The thread started out with a bunch of hoopla over this watch and it's build origin. Then all the knuckleheads piled on and said Kenya ;-)
> 
> ...


+1


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> Why should that happen? No one is forcing anyone to open this thread and read the content.


Discussion of fake watches is against the forum rules.

Therefore, Ginault threads should be locked.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> Discussion of fake watches is against the forum rules.
> 
> Therefore, Ginault threads should be locked.


Are you trolling? Or do you seriously believe homage watches that isn't even 1:1 but rather a blend of influences with its own brand name is a "fake"?

I guess Rolex is a fake since its inception borrowed heavily from Blancpain?

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

It seems as though the sheer amount of love, good faith, and camaraderie emanating like a beacon of light from this thread right now is beginning to reverberate throughout all of WUS. I, for one, am in awe. I apologize that I don't have very much to say about the OR, although I have seen some nice pics in this thread. What interests me, rather, is that the story/exposé/blog post that has generated much of the recent Ginault controversy is seemingly becoming much less easily found using search engines. I don't know a great deal about search engine optimization except to know that it is commonly manipulated and can be done so to either promote or suppress a site. It seems the relevant site is being suppressed in comparison to the past few days. Give it a shot. Google the terms you know to be related to this story and see what you come up with. How far down is the URL in question? Do you see it all? Linking to the article or even other forums is a good way to get your post deleted and earn a WUS demerit or two. So I don't suggest it. But many of you will know how to find the article. I'm interested to know, however, how easily to you find it with Google or other search engines? What are your thoughts about this? Do you find it odd or consider this sort of thing a fairly normal practice?


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

X2-Elijah said:


> Discussion of fake watches is against the forum rules.
> 
> Therefore, Ginault threads should be locked.


I'm stunned it still open for this exact reason, oh and the part where the owner of the brand mentions a mod and another long term member as "partners" I believe it was. What a joke.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

watchesaresocool said:


> Are you trolling?


No.



> Or do you seriously believe homage watches that isn't even 1:1 but rather a blend of influences with its own brand name is a "fake"?


In general, no. *



> I guess Rolex is a fake since its inception borrowed heavily from Blancpain?


If that's your opinion, ok. I disagree.



> Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


I honestly don't care what device or app you use to post on the forums.

*- homages are generally fine. A watch made by the same people, from mostly the same parts, as known fakes, is not OK (imo). A company whose owner added other peoples' names in fraudulent business filings in the US is also, imo, deeply immoral and probably illegal.

Those are the reasons why I feel justified in calling Ginaults 'fake'. Brand owner hiding behind fake names (charles ginault? "TC"? Thomas Cadell?), using fake brand backstory, printing fake information on dials (assembled in america?) and website (american movement? Gold sand lume??), filing fake documents in a US state with other people's real names, and using parts from known illegal rolex replicas?
Yeah, Ginault is fake as hell. Ignore the facts if you want, but don't say that I'm trolling.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Those results are filtered to show only the ones from the past 24 hours. I wonder why someone is flooding Google search results with spam.

You can't even find the article on Tsung Chi aka Charles Ginault aka Thomas Caddell aka Allan Kuefer even when you search for the exact title of it.

Looks like someone's trying to bury and make this subject disappear to me.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

acheongtk said:


> Back to the OR2. Anybody opting for the Ginault 7275? My mind's still pretty split between it and the Sellita


So was I so I made a thread about it a few weeks ago its called: Sellita SW 200 Vs 2824-2 Clone?

Have a read through it mate some good advice in there:


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## bombora (Apr 1, 2012)

If it had Rolex printed on the dial then it's a fake. As it doesn't, you can call it anything you like.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Cant wait to see the OR2 pics. I hope this month.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> No.
> 
> In general, no. *
> 
> ...


So you want to close this thread when nothing illegal was proven to be actually done. Got it. We should all not discuss something cause of your subjective view regardless of the legality of the situation

Your idea is nonsensical and off, but then again I'm not surprised since it's coming from a guy who believes my application posting signature is written manually and not from my app. Makes sense.

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

watchesaresocool said:


> but then again I'm not surprised since it's coming from a guy who believes my application posting signature is written manually and not from my app.


No, I just believe it's kinda lazy to not disable it. Takes like 5 seconds...

So what reason could there be for you to keep it as-is? Only thing I can think of, is that you really wanted ppl to know about your "LM-V350". Otherwise, sheer laziness. You choose.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

X2-Elijah said:


> No, I just believe it's kinda lazy to not disable it. Takes like 5 seconds...


I couldn't care less. You bicker about the most irrelevant things. Seems to be a common theme.

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I most certainly CAN bash the brand and the watch. I'm not bashing a singular person.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not saying don't as in I don't want you to speak your opinion. I'm saying you can't in that you were a huge supporter of thus watch.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Anyone got any news about when will the ORII first pics be released, by the way? I guess end of this month is the original deadline, right?


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Anyone got any news about when will the ORII first pics be released, by the way? I guess end of this month is the original deadline, right?


Ginault is waiting for the last parts to arrive. +- 1 Month.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Anyone got any news about when will the ORII first pics be released, by the way? I guess end of this month is the original deadline, right?


Beginning of next month mate, and were still on track for end of Q3 shipping .

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Karlsson E said:


> View attachment 14292721
> 
> 
> Those results are filtered to show only the ones from the past 24 hours. I wonder why someone is flooding Google search results with spam.
> ...


Not sure what country you are in but I just googled "Ginault TC" and almost every link was to a forum posting on the controversy (such as Reddit), the fifth or so link was directly to the report, all on front page.

Edit: Sorry, fifth one was to a thread on a Rolex forum, thread was named exact same as report so that's what threw me off.


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## georgefl74 (Jun 18, 2015)

Karlsson E said:


> Looks like someone's trying to bury and make this subject disappear to me.


That would be an expected first reaction. Doesn't cost much and its effective for awhile (Google actively hunts and takes down stuff like that, so despite promises its only a stop-gap measure).

My guess is that since the Ginault handle is burned Mr Chi, or whatever he's called, will pull a disappearing act. Whether he'll re-emerge as a Kickstarter project or go back to replicas is anyone's guess.

A lesson here folks, if you're doing questionable work and ever decide to go legit you should do so 1000% and have a courteous spokesperson with a nice set of ...teeth. That guy just went half way in, maybe wasn't all too sure about it in the first place.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Beginning of next month mate, and were still on track for end of Q3 shipping .
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


The original deadline to cancel an order with a full refund was July 20th. I was hoping they would post pictures before then, although I don't have plans to cancel. I know what the aluminum insert version looks like so worst case if I don't like the look of the ceramic I can have an aluminum fitted. It would still be nice if they posted prototype pics before that deadline (or were flexible with that deadline for those on the fence)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I wasn't going to get another OR, but this whole controversy has me thinking I might need to pick up an ORII after all. 

If only we could get some real life pics before the pre-order ends.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> Not sure what country you are in but I just googled "Ginault TC" and almost every link was to a forum posting on the controversy (such as Reddit), the fifth or so link was directly to the report, all on front page.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, fifth one was to a thread on a Rolex forum, thread was named exact same as report so that's what threw me off.


Search for "Ginault" only and go on page two and all the pages that follow it. This is important: make sure you filter the results to show only the ones from the past 24 hours. You'll see all the new spam results.


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Seem like a reminder about not feeding the trolls is in order. Don't quote, don't reply.

Kill with kindness and pics of watches you enjoy. Nobody's words are going to change anybody's opinion.

The 2 that get the most wrist time










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> The original deadline to cancel an order with a full refund was July 20th. I was hoping they would post pictures before then, although I don't have plans to cancel. I know what the aluminum insert version looks like so worst case if I don't like the look of the ceramic I can have an aluminum fitted. It would still be nice if they posted prototype pics before that deadline (or were flexible with that deadline for those on the fence)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the deadlines aren't set in stone so im sure we'll still get the option to cancel when the prototype pics surface.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

GMArthur said:


> Seem like a reminder about not feeding the trolls is in order. Don't quote, don't reply.
> 
> Kill with kindness and pics of watches you enjoy. Nobody's words are going to change anybody's opinion.
> 
> ...


+1

Thats a hell of a combo you got there!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> So was I so I made a thread about it a few weeks ago its called: Sellita SW 200 Vs 2824-2 Clone?
> 
> Have a read through it mate some good advice in there:


Thank you! Very helpful indeed!


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

GMArthur said:


> Seem like a reminder about not feeding the trolls is in order. Don't quote, don't reply.
> 
> Kill with kindness and pics of watches you enjoy. Nobody's words are going to change anybody's opinion.
> 
> ...


Sweet combo!


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Porsche993 said:


> Not true. There are several reports of 7275 failures repaired under warranty. Not unusual but its misleading to say that there have been no issues reported. Mine has been a solid performer for over 2 years and I wear it daily as my beater.


Thanks for the info. Good to know.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

GMArthur said:


> Seem like a reminder about not feeding the trolls is in order. Don't quote, don't reply.
> 
> Kill with kindness and pics of watches you enjoy. Nobody's words are going to change anybody's opinion.
> 
> ...


Nice collection there 

How you find wearing them, and what the differences are, both comfortable, which one is easier to tell time ? Appreciated.


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

marinemaster said:


> Nice collection there
> 
> How you find wearing them, and what the differences are, both comfortable, which one is easier to tell time ? Appreciated.


Both are very comfortable. I wouldn't say one is heads above the other. The Rolex stays on the bracelet and the Ginault seems to get swapped to whatever nato I feel like throwing it on. Which one gets worn depends on whether I'm in a bracelet or nato mood.

At a quick glance I find it easier to tell time on the Rolex. The merc hands are really good at differentiating between hour and minutes quickly for me. I don't find it hard on the Ginault at all just a bit easier on the Rolex. Perhaps the slightly larger minute indices on the explorer help a bit as well.

I get just as much enjoyment from wearing my Ocean Rover as I do my Explorer or even my GShock Square.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

That is what i was looking for. Thanks much.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

When people are going to dump their ocean rovers for cheap ? (Like predicted here ) I am still waiting.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Here is an email that I sent to Ginault, over the weekend:

To whom it may concern,

I have been reading deepdwellers blog, and the 450+ page thread on Watchuseek, and am now concerned about the deposit that I have placed with you for the new ORII. Are you: Thomas Caddell, Tsung Chi or Charles Ginault? Were you doing business selling the fake Rolex watches as TC? How are ... and the site moderator of wathuseek,... , connected to your company via the Wyoming Articles of Incorporation? Your, truthful and honest, response would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
(I removed the two names from this cut and paste).

Here is his response:

Thank you for your email. 

We run an honest business. If you do a search you shall find that we stand behind our products and customers, never scammed anyone. 
(he responded very promptly to this email).

Here is my reply email as none of my concerns were addressed:

Thank you for your response. At this point I am not seeking a refund....However, none of the questions that I asked, were addressed. I would assume that if any, or all, of the content of my email were false then you would have responded, vehemently. Would you care to address any of the questions that I asked in my original email? Also, why have you not responded/defended your self and your company on this 450+ page thread on Watchuseek? I am not trying to be combative, in any way; after reading the deepdweller blog I have many questions. When is the expected release date for the ORII? Thanks.

At this point he has not responded...

Let me add that I like my Ginault and wear it often but after reading the deepdweller blog, I have questions and concerns and it looks like it is fairly easy to connect the dots.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

They haven’t replied to this thread (even tho they started it) so I wouldn’t expect them to be honest to you either. In fact, I think even if they were “honest” about any of it, it would be as fake as their watches


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

City74 said:


> They haven't replied to this thread (even tho they started it) so I wouldn't expect them to be honest to you either. In fact, I think even if they were "honest" about any of it, it would be as fake as their watches


I have never put anyone on ignore on WUS.... until now. Your comments add nothing to this discussion. Goodbye.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

jarlaxle said:


> I have never put anyone on ignore on WUS.... until now. Your comments add nothing to this discussion. Goodbye.


Yea. That really bothers me. Sorry ya can't stand the truth. It's easier to ignore it I guess

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> No, I just believe it's kinda lazy to not disable it. Takes like 5 seconds...
> 
> So what reason could there be for you to keep it as-is? Only thing I can think of, is that you really wanted ppl to know about your "LM-V350". Otherwise, sheer laziness. You choose.


@ HWA: Just for clarity, this is an example of an "ad hominem attack".

My observation of the fact that certain participants in this thread who are vehemently against Ginault products seem to have no problem discussing and even owning products from brands who, let's say, "heavily borrow design inspiration" from other brands, such as:









and remain conspicuously absent from making their righteous indignation felt in threads discussing brands such as this:








is just an observation, not an attack. My observation of these realities makes me "consider the source" when I hear the comments and wonder about motive.

I am especially concerned when these above example "homages" heavily borrow design inspiration from products currently in production from the original manufacturer. In this case, these homages are, in my opinion, attempting to take revenue from the design owner.

Replicating the mid-case design of a watch nearly a decade out of production may be distasteful to some purists (and which is an opinion I can respect if consistently applied), it certainly is not attempting to take revenue from the original design owner.

The allegations against the Ginault brand owner are troubling, but at this point remain allegations. I'll wait to see the results of any investigations before making any final judgement.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

City74 said:


> Yea. That really bothers me. Sorry ya can't stand the truth. It's easier to ignore it I guess
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

drttown said:


> Here is an email that I sent to Ginault, over the weekend:
> 
> To whom it may concern,
> 
> ...


Ask him why in all the legal documents pertaining to Ginault, especially the Ginault trademark application, only Tsung Chi is named. Where is Mr. "Charles Ginault"?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> Yep
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Says the guy who bought twice as many Ginault watches as I have.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

drttown said:


> Here is an email that I sent to Ginault, over the weekend:
> 
> To whom it may concern,
> 
> ...


No denials, no nothing. Just a statement that they run a business and never scammed anyone - *a deflection that completely ignores all of your questions and doesn't answer any of it*. I highly suggest you take the refund while you still can before Rolex's lawyers clamp down on him. It's going to be a musical chair with the refunds in the future.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Come on guys! some of you need to be realistic and honest with yourself about the situation and just make a decision as to where you stand. 

Think about it from the company's perspective... 

Im pretty sure they're not going to address the speculation (Not yet anyway) and im sure he's fully aware at this point that everything he says from here on out can and probably will be used against him in some way. 

Remember despite the evidence presented technically him or the company are not guilty of anything at this point. There's been no official investigations, no arrests, no charges no guilty verdics. 

Let the people who need to look into it, look into it and im sure if there's things he needs to answer for he'll be given the opportunity to explain and defend himself according to the law. 

If your not happy with Johns responses (or lack of) or the way the company conducts business just walk away. I'm sure the company will have no problems giving refunds and theres thousands of other watch makers to choose from. 

No need for anyone else to be playing super detective at this point Deep dwellers already done it. 


Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Karlsson E said:


> Ask him why in all the legal documents pertaining to Ginault, especially the Ginault trademark application, only Tsung Chi is named. Where is Mr. "Charles Ginault"?


I think this is the wrong question.

I suspect "Ginault" is as meaningless a name as "Rolex". It was likely selected because it sounded "European" or "sophisticated" or similar.

I am not really that troubled that a brand owner hides behind an alias. That is their business. Heck, some of my favorite authors used pen names.

I am somewhat concerned about the allegation that the brand owner was once a supplier of illicit products, but by all accounts the illicit business was shuttered when the legitimate business opened. Also, in reading the blog, it seems when the illicit business was open, it clearly advertised what it was selling. There was no consumer deceit in trying to market them as authentic. According to the blog, he was a "trusted vendor" or "honest thief" if you will. I find that whole aspect of the WIS hobby odd as it seems like costume jewellery to me (not to minimize the criminal aspect of trademark infringement).

If this was the sole allegation, I would simply be pleased the illegal business was shuttered and wish him well in his legal business pursuits.

I am most concerned about the Wyoming document and the identity theft. I look forward to the results of the investigation into this allegation.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Says the guy who bought twice as many Ginault watches as I have.


And sold them - and explained why in detail here on this forum.

Well made watch. Always felt like something was 'off' and now my suspicions have been confirmed.

I don't care who owns what and I have no 'vendetta' against Ginault per se. I loathe liars and those who falsify things on purpose and consistently over an extended period of time intentionally deceive their customers.

As to why I don't go after other brand and threads, it's precisely as I stated here. I have no vendetta.

That's my two cents.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Come on guys! some of you need to be realistic and honest with yourself about the situation and just make a decision as to where you stand.
> 
> Think about it from the company's perspective...
> 
> ...


Lol. Compare Ginault's response to Doc Vail's. Doc Vail immediately said that he wasn't connected to any of this and has completely denied everything. Ginault? A timid "we run business, we no never scam no one".

And you are correct that it will be used against him that's why he's not denying anything because he knows it's all true. He's backed into a corner. And there are no arrests, yet. Keyword yet. Don't forget about that little Wyoming filing. That would be a felony on top of the counterfeiting.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Karlsson E said:


> Lol. Compare Ginault's response to Doc Vail's. Doc Vail immediately said that he wasn't connected to any of this and has completely denied everything. Ginault? A timid "we run business, we no never scam no one".
> 
> And you are correct that it will be used against him that's why he's not denying anything because he knows it's all true. He's backed into a corner. And there are no arrests, yet. Keyword yet. Don't forget about that little Wyoming filing. That would be a felony on top of the counterfeiting.


This is why I am so opposed to the brand and shocked that more people aren't honest with themselves.

The 'Ginault' brand and those under its employ knowingly committed fraud. I guess honor and decency have escaped more people - and it shows in this thread.

That the Ginault brand and those under its employ don't deny the allegations also speaks volumes. It's not because they have nothing to hide. It is because they CAN'T say anything. They have been painted into a corner.

Do you as a Ginault wearer want to have someone question your integrity due to that watch? Honestly, that's what it will come to.

Search your moral compass.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> @ HWA: Just for clarity, this is an example of an "ad hominem attack".
> 
> My observation of the fact that certain participants in this thread who are vehemently against Ginault products seem to have no problem discussing and even owning products from brands who, let's say, "heavily borrow design inspiration" from other brands, such as:
> 
> ...


If you focus narrowly on the Ginault, without regard for the TC reps, and dont care about false, misleading, and dishonest claims about the provenance of the Ginault, then yes, I agree, the Ginault is no better or worse than many others for homaging the iconic 16610.

If that other stuff bugs you, then the Ginault has a stink the other homages do not.

I own plenty of homages. None claim to be Made in USA, or Hand Built in USA, or claim to have a proprietary movement that's nothing but a clone of a 50-year old movement.

You've never answered this basic question: if Ginault really did build a proprietary made in USA movement, the "7275", explain to me why it's unsigned and then thrown over for a Sellita at the first sign of trouble. It's inexplicable to claim you've built a cosc-quality, better than top-grade 2824, in the USA no less, and then offer it instead with the sellita. That just makes no sense at all.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

hwa said:


> If you focus narrowly on the Ginault, without regard for the TC reps, and dont care about false, misleading, and dishonest claims about the provenance of the Ginault, then yes, I agree, the Ginault is no better or worse than many others for homaging the iconic 16610.
> 
> If that other stuff bugs you, then the Ginault has a stink the other homages do not.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> And sold them - and explained why in detail here on this forum.
> 
> Well made watch. Always felt like something was 'off' and now my suspicions have been confirmed.
> 
> ...


I was just busting your chops a bit. I bought one back in December of 2016 for $518 as I wanted a Mil-Sub homage (and this is how I view the watch design).

I still have it and still feel it was a good buy at $518. I appreciate the "top hat" crystal and the "gold sand lume" (odd marketing, but whatever) is, IMO, the best faux vintage lume tint I've seen. Most look far too yellow.

While I still like vintage inspired dive watch designs, I'm kind of over the Mil-Sub as it seems to have been done to death. Plus, I'm trying to pair down my collection and would rather have one Tudor BB58 than 5 homages.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

6 o'clock


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Ui, 6 o'clock, time for a G&T....


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

*deleted original post* Sorry, I misinterpreted your post. Post-vacation morning brain fog.

FWIW, I don't think the issue is that Ginault is an homage or even a bad watch. At least not for me.



Ryeguy said:


> @ HWA: Just for clarity, this is an example of an "ad hominem attack".
> 
> My observation of the fact that certain participants in this thread who are vehemently against Ginault products seem to have no problem discussing and even owning products from brands who, let's say, "heavily borrow design inspiration" from other brands, such as:
> 
> ...


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Can I just say that I am buying an OR2 fully accepting that the person behind the Ginault is TC / a former rep maker and I don't care? 

And that the constant people bickering against Ginault is just falling on noncaring ears?

Let me preface by stating that it was wrong of him to make reps, but a rep maker turning on a new leaf and leaving that industry to go legal should be commended.

I am not surprised or holding it against him that he wants to hide that piece of his past so he could do well with his current business. Everyone has something they don't want upfront and center in their lives, if I had to 
protest every brand and company who's run by someone with a shady past I'd probably have to live on a farm. 

The watch is miles above everything else in its price point, does not say Rolex on the dial, is legal in the eyes of US law, and Charles/TC/Santa Clause/I don't really care is giving good customer service and I have not heard of someone having a bad time dealing with him.

So yes, I will fully purchase this watch accepting he is TC. I don't care. Question my morality, I don't give a hoot. The quality is there, it's legal, the customer service is good.
If no one could work because of their past then I would imagine that not many people would end up being able to work.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

hwa said:


> I own plenty of homages. None claim to be Made in USA, or Hand Built in USA, or claim to have a proprietary movement that's nothing but a clone of a 50-year old movement.
> 
> You've never answered this basic question: if Ginault really did build a proprietary made in USA movement, the "7275", explain to me why it's unsigned and then thrown over for a Sellita at the first sign of trouble. It's inexplicable to claim you've built a cosc-quality, better than top-grade 2824, in the USA no less, and then offer it instead with the sellita. That just makes no sense at all.


Completely agree. I believe Ginault's statement about the switch to Sellita was "you've asked, and we listened". Yeah, you're just going to throw away those supposed years of r&d and the "prestige" of US-made movement because you were asked to switch to a Sellita.

Riddle me this, Rolex counterfeiter TC was already selling counterfeits with the same exact movement prior to Ginault coming back on the scene, so how did TC have access to a massive supply of Ginault's cal. 7275 that's supposedly built by Ginault? Unless TC is a time traveller, the only answer is that Tsung Chi and Charles Ginault is one and the same.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> I was just busting your chops a bit. I bought one back in December of 2016 for $518 as I wanted a Mil-Sub homage (and this is how I view the watch design).
> 
> I still have it and still feel it was a good buy at $518. I appreciate the "top hat" crystal and the "gold sand lume" (odd marketing, but whatever) is, IMO, the best faux vintage lume tint I've seen. Most look far too yellow.
> 
> While I still like vintage inspired dive watch designs, I'm kind of over the Mil-Sub as it seems to have been done to death. Plus, I'm trying to pair down my collection and would rather have one Tudor BB58 than 5 homages.


I'll play that game! Best faux vintage lume in an homage? Here you go:










That's an unsigned case, custom dial i had built (in china), relumed in Amsterdam by a friend from the forums.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> 1. Can I just say that I am buying an OR2 fully accepting that the person behind the Ginault is TC / a former rep maker and I don't care?
> 
> 2. Let me preface by stating that it was wrong of him to make reps, but a rep maker turning on a new leaf and leaving that industry to go legal should be commended.
> 
> ...


1. Do you want an award for that courageous and brave post?

2. It's nothing to be commended, steal and sell anything in any creative field and you'll be rightfully shunned and blacklisted after you're found out, even after years of creating your own "originals". Which, by the way, TC haven't done as he has used the counterfeit Submariner cases for the Ocean-Rover.

3. False-equivalance. That's the same thing as saying we can't complain about terrible food because kids in Africa are hungry. It's completely normal and okay to single out a specific company.

4. Again, do you want an award for that?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Karlsson E said:


> Lol. Compare Ginault's response to Doc Vail's. Doc Vail immediately said that he wasn't connected to any of this and has completely denied everything. Ginault? A timid "we run business, we no never scam no one".
> 
> And you are correct that it will be used against him that's why he's not denying anything because he knows it's all true. He's backed into a corner. And there are no arrests, yet. Keyword yet. Don't forget about that little Wyoming filing. That would be a felony on top of the counterfeiting.


Responses don't prove anything! One could argue that Chris responses could be looked at as as an attempt to cover the truth. (not saying that he is guilty) there's no need to convince anyone of the truth so aggressively if you know the truth right?

Again I'm not saying hes guilty of anything its all just speculation at this point anything can be twisted and misconstrued.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> 1. Do you want an award for that courageous and brave post?
> 
> 2. It's nothing to be commended, steal and sell anything in any creative field and you'll be rightfully shunned and blacklisted after you're found out, even after years of creating your own "originals". Which, by the way, TC haven't done as he has used the counterfeit Submariner cases for the Ocean-Rover.
> 
> ...


1. I want people to realize that arguing for your ideals on a forum is falling on people who just don't care. Go on and continue crying, I'll actually end up enjoying my Ginault more cause of the crybabies.

2. Rightfully shunned and black listed by watch snobs? Ohh nooo, I'm sure TC is crying behind all the money he's making by selling quality watches. Please continue to shun him, it's going to really hurt his business, cause you would have bought one if it wasn't for this headline right? Yeah, sure.

3. Sure, single it out, it's your prerogative, I don't care. My point is I, ME, and everyone who enjoys a Ginault doesn't have to be guilt tripped and forced into your crappy agenda. I don't have time to protest all the wrongs of this world.

4. Again, look at answer to point 1.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

hwa said:


> If you focus narrowly on the Ginault, without regard for the TC reps, and dont care about false, misleading, and dishonest claims about the provenance of the Ginault, then yes, I agree, the Ginault is no better or worse than many others for homaging the iconic 16610.
> 
> If that other stuff bugs you, then the Ginault has a stink the other homages do not.
> 
> ...


This is one of the things that bothers me most about this discussion. The first point is valid IMO. The idea that Ginault was born out of a former counterfeiting operation and has continued to play hide and seek with the truth bothers me tremendously and has put a HUGE damper on my desire for one of their watches. I haven't ruled it out entirely yet but I'm probably 98% of the way there.

That said, when it comes to your comments about the movement, Ginault was always completely upfront that they had made their own version of a 2824 along the way trying to make what they saw as improvements. It appears they were largely successful as most people's actual hands on experience with their movement has been extremely positive. However, the origin of the movement was clearly the most controversial aspect of the watch (up until now) and they lost sales because of it. They made the decision to offer the Sellita as a second option on the OR2 because that's what their customers were asking for. There is nothing the least bit inexplicable about that and I give them credit for offering a name brand alternative for those that want it. I certainly don't see it as further evidence of unethical behavior. So while I am pretty much decided against Ginault at this point, from what I can see they have been 100% up front about the movement issue.

And just to head off the naysayers, nothing in the expose proved that "Built in the USA" is a lie, in fact quite the opposite. The author offers proof that the "TC" 2824 and the "Ginault" 2824 are identical. OK fine, but he also makes it clear through comments/posts he found that the Chinese were never able to produce what TC wanted and that he worked with a guy from Southern California (i.e. in the USA) to develop the movement. So somehow, while the expose says directly that the Chinese could not produce this movement, there are those on this thread proclaiming the Ginault has a crappy Chinese clone movement and the "Built in the USA" is another component of the fraud.

Guess what I'm saying is there is plenty to question here, I just don't see any evidence the movement or the "Built in the USA" claim is one of them.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> If you focus narrowly on the Ginault, without regard for the TC reps, and dont care about false, misleading, and dishonest claims about the provenance of the Ginault, then yes, I agree, the Ginault is no better or worse than many others for homaging the iconic 16610.
> 
> If that other stuff bugs you, then the Ginault has a stink the other homages do not.
> 
> ...


"without regard for the TC reps" : The connection to TC is an allegation made by an anonymous on-line blogger. While the presented evidence is compelling, I am waiting on an official investigation (if one ever arises).

That said, even if the allegations are proven accurate, the real question is whether you can support a business whose owner has run a criminal enterprise in the past. It is only something you can decide. For example, I am aware of lume service who previously worked on those Chinese "MM" watches until receiving a cease and desist from Panerai. They seem to still be doing a healthy business.

IMO, the larger question in my mind is whether he is still in that criminal enterprise and according to the blog, he isn't.

"dont care about false, misleading, and dishonest claims about the provenance of the Ginault": This is a point you have been driving for quite some time. The "Made in America" claim was proven inaccurate and the brand made corrections.

The provenance of the balance of the watch components has yet to be proven. While I highly suspect the watches and movements are, at best, only finished and assembled in the USA, there is no clear evidence one way or the other.

I could apply your same suspicions about the ability to produce a watch in the USA for such a bargain price against Weiss who sells their USA assembled field watch, with a USA assembled (from Swiss components) movement, on a USA made Horween leather strap, in a USA made wood box, for $1,250.

When I bought a Steinhart years ago, it certainly wasn't because I thought the $500 watch was actually "Swiss Made".

"the Ginault has a stink the other homages do not": if you think the contract manufacturers in China used by most homage manufacturers aren't also supplying cases for illicit manufacturers, that is a naive assumption in my opinion. Who do you think manufactures the CT700 abomination for Crystaltimes?

Offering of the Sellita: I have to suspect Ginault offered the Sellita simply because they felt the market asked for it. I remember many reviews (including mine) raised the point about the ability to service a 2824-2 clone years in the future if Ginault ever went out of business. Given how many micros come and go over the years, it seems a reasonable concern.

I believe they still offer their "in-house" "7275" movement to those interested, so to say they "threw it over" is a vast overstatement. They are offering it as an option.

While I feel I am coming across as a Ginault apologist, trust me, I am not. I'm 100% fine with allegations made with some evidence and by individuals who seem to have some consistency in their ethical compass.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> 1. I want people to realize that arguing for your ideals on a forum is falling on people who just don't care. Go on and continue crying, I'll actually end up enjoying my Ginault more cause of the crybabies.
> 
> 2. Rightfully shunned and black listed by watch snobs? Ohh nooo, I'm sure TC is crying behind all the money he's making by selling quality watches. Please continue to shun him, it's going to really hurt his pockets.
> 
> ...


"falling on people who just don't care."

You cared enough to write a diatribe about it while bragging about your oh-so courageous purchase. Don't come back here crying months later when the watch you pre-ordered don't arrive because Rolex seized Tsung's assets and he wasn't able to deliver.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> "falling on people who just don't care."
> 
> You cared enough to write a diatribe about it while bragging about your oh-so courageous purchase. Don't come back here crying months later when the watch you pre-ordered don't arrive because Rolex seized Tsung's assets and he wasn't able to deliver.


I don't think you understand what "don't care" means in this situation.

I don't care enough about your complaints to not get one or to feel guilty buying one cause of salty watch snobs.

I "care" to post that on a forum. Two completely different topics and nonsensically warped by you.

I won't cry, cause TC told me it's still coming, and if not, PayPal will refund me.

Lol, no need to be so salty dude. It's just a watch! Go protest something that matters in your local hometown.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> "without regard for the TC reps" : The connection to TC is an allegation made by an anonymous on-line blogger. While the presented evidence is compelling, I am waiting on an official investigation (if one ever arises).
> 
> While I feel I am coming across as a Ginault apologist, trust me, I am not. I'm 100% fine with allegations made with some evidence and by individuals who seem to have some consistency in their ethical compass.


An anonymous online blogger who has posted independently verifiable proof complete with links, that so far nobody has disproven.

Compare that to a faceless John McMurty and Charles Ginault. I believe that blogger more than Mr. "we run bisness we no scam no one".


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> I'll play that game! Best faux vintage lume in an homage? Here you go:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks nice and I'm glad you are happy with it.

If anything, you needing to post photos of a custom lume job as an example to compete with Ginault only bolsters the level of craftsmanship executed on a production watch.

We can question the brand owner's ethical coming to light moment, but his attention to detail is there.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Karlsson E said:


> "falling on people who just don't care."
> 
> You cared enough to write a diatribe about it while bragging about your oh-so courageous purchase. Don't come back here crying months later when the watch you pre-ordered don't arrive because Rolex seized Tsung's assets and he wasn't able to deliver.


If you think Rolex care about Ginault you'd be sadly mistaken. They have MUCH bigger fish to fry


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

7 o'clock


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Do you as a Ginault wearer want to have someone question your integrity due to that watch? Honestly, that's what it will come to.
> 
> Search your moral compass.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What are you even talking about? lol I don't know what planet you live on but here on earth no one questions anothers integrity based on the watch they wear. and if you think a persons integrity can be judged on what they wear then its you that needs to start searching for your moral compass.

Dont get it twisted theres plenty of scumbags in the world wearing Rolex's VC's amd AP's

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> What are you even talking about? lol I don't know what planet you live on but here on earth no one questions anothers integrity based on the watch they wear. and if you think a persons integrity can be judged on what they wear then its you that needs to start searching for your moral compass.
> 
> Dont get it twisted theres plenty of scumbags in the world wearing Rolex's VC's amd AP's
> 
> ...


.....and don't forget Ginaults


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Responses don't prove anything! One could argue that Chris responses could be looked at as as an attempt to cover the truth. (not saying that he is guilty) there's no need to convince anyone of the truth so aggressively if you know the truth right?
> 
> Again I'm not saying hes guilty of anything its all just speculation at this point anything can be twisted and misconstrued.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Exactly what I was thinking; the speculation can go both ways.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Karlsson E said:


> An anonymous online blogger who has posted independently verifiable proof complete with links, that so far nobody has disproven.
> 
> Compare that to a faceless John McMurty and Charles Ginault. I believe that blogger more than Mr. "we run bisness we no scam no one".


Again, what exactly is the scam?

The blog provides detailed evidence that the brand owner of Ginault uses a false name. Fair enough, but not a scam

The blog provides detailed evidence that the brand owner of Ginault likely ran a business in the past selling counterfeit / costume jewellery Subs (again, opening the case back would prove them not authentic even to a casual observer). The blog shows that the buyers of these Fauxlex's knew exactly what they were getting. They weren't scammed.

(As an aside, I would be right there with you with my pitch fork and torch if there was evidence of him trying to sell those as authentic and therefore "scamming" someone.)

If the blog poster could provide proof the watches and components were made overseas and not in the USA, that would be a scam (false advertising). If the blogger could provide examples of where past or current customers were financially taken advantage of, that would be a scam.

The only potential "scam" uncovered is the odd Wyoming document, but all we know is it exists - not why it exists or why those names were added.


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## Rice and Gravy (Feb 7, 2014)

So now it's the semantics of what a "scam" is??? :think::-s He willfully and purposefully did everything possible to conceal his true identity and past and "created" a new... nevermind, it's hopeless with you o|


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Rice and Gravy said:


> So now it's the semantics of what a "scam" is??? :think::-s He willfully and purposefully did everything possible to conceal his true identity and past and "created" a new... nevermind, it's hopeless with you o|


As others have stated, the other alternative was for him to say, "Hi, I'm [insert real name here]. I used to make some of the world's best fake Rolexes but now I've gone legit. I'm proud to introduce my new company, Ginault". Definitely falls in the category of "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

My guess is he now regrets ever having gone down the counterfeit path because by all accounts, dude can produce a good product that likely would have stood on its own (other than being an homage) from day one. Unfortunately the brand is just so tainted now that even if he were to come clean at this point the damage is likely done.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> let's not forget who was at the forefront of the quartz crisis. I crisis which almost destroyed the entire Swiss watch industry
> 
> take the time to think about the number of businesses went bankrupt from the sea of quartz watches rushing in sweeping thier clients away. can you imagine how many people lost thier jobs, the number of people who spend years mastering a craft now all of a sudden redundant, unable to work and therefore unable to provide for thier families???
> 
> ...


Any technological advancement is going to have a similar effect. Cars & buggy drivers. Pantyhose & stockings.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

City74 said:


> .....and don't forget Ginaults


aww man (this actually made me laugh) you just couldnt help yourself could you!

Your troll game is approaching godly levels

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> "without regard for the TC reps" : The connection to TC is an allegation made by an anonymous on-line blogger. While the presented evidence is compelling, I am waiting on an official investigation (if one ever arises).
> 
> That said, even if the allegations are proven accurate, the real question is whether you can support a business whose owner has run a criminal enterprise in the past. It is only something you can decide. For example, I am aware of lume service who previously worked on those Chinese "MM" watches until receiving a cease and desist from Panerai. They seem to still be doing a healthy business.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Reasonable minds can differ, and I think you and I are in the same ballpark.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

8:23. :-D


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> Looks nice and I'm glad you are happy with it.
> 
> If anything, you needing to post photos of a custom lume job as an example to compete with Ginault only bolsters the level of craftsmanship executed on a production watch.
> 
> We can question the brand owner's ethical coming to light moment, but his attention to detail is there.


Oh, I didn't need to. Just being cheeky. That Jester is a one-off, and the lume was done by hand.

I wrote an early comp of the Ginault next to my 16610, which is still posted (we still don't approve of members discussing Mod actions). Go figure.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

In related news, I've decided to stick with aluminum, that dark blue bezel with Gilt numerals is too alluring.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> Says the guy who bought twice as many Ginault watches as I have.


I enjoyed this, he is intellectually dishonest.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> In related news, I've decided to stick with aluminum, that dark blue bezel with Gilt numerals is too alluring.


I don't blame you. i was considering it myself.

im more worried about the new bezel with fully marked indicies making the watch look a little busy rather than the actual colour or material, good to know theres a nice plan B though if it turns out to be the case.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> I don't blame you. i was considering it myself.
> 
> im more worried about the new bezel with fully marked indicies making the watch look a little busy rather than the actual colour or material, good to know theres a nice plan B though if it turns out to be the case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Yeah that's another thing to consider... I guess it comes down to if you like the Rolex Sea Dweller bezel look. I'm not a huge fan.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> I enjoyed this, he is intellectually dishonest.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Ahhh so an ACTUAL insult......that's the direction you wish to take?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> My guess is he now regrets ever having gone down the counterfeit path because by all accounts, dude can produce a good product that likely would have stood on its own (other than being an homage) from day one. Unfortunately the brand is just so tainted now that even if he were to come clean at this point the damage is likely done.


I don't know about that. Ginault was initially launched in 2010, and their watches were fairly unsuccessful, and the company went dormant. According to the allegations this is when the TC rep business was launched, and it seems like the quality slowly improved over time. Once he had built the relationships with solid suppliers and had the quality up to snuff he re-launched Ginault. It seems as though he tried to go the legal route first, but it didn't work out until he could develop his product further

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## winstoda (Jun 20, 2012)

Never owned a Ginault, not a big enough fan of homage watches to lay down the amount of money these cost. But have followed these recent events with interest. 

Not sure what actual scam has been perpetrated against the buyers of these watches unless the whole made in the USA claims have been debunked (if they were uncovered by the blogger I missed it). 

However if the legal documents in Wyoming are real, and I don't think anyone is disputing they are, the company has committed fraud. Unless you believe that the two named gents on that paperwork actually do business using message board handles, that is pretty damning evidence that Ginault is guilty of something in the state of Wyoming. 

Is that enough to bring down the brand? Perhaps if they're prosecuted for any crimes in Wyoming it would put them in a position where they could no longer run the business. But they have enough of a cult following here (not an insult - lots of brands have similar cults going) that I don't think they'll be lacking excited buyers...

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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

badgerracer said:


> I don't know about that. Ginault was initially launched in 2010, and their watches were fairly unsuccessful, and the company went dormant. According to the allegations this is when the TC rep business was launched, and it seems like the quality slowly improved over time. Once he had built the relationships with solid suppliers and had the quality up to snuff he re-launched Ginault. It seems as though he tried to go the legal route first, but it didn't work out until he could develop his product further
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok but he was selling fakes for ~$500 while he has demonstrated there is a market for a "super-homage" at $1,000+. Had he simply stuck with his own brand and kept refining, I suspect he would have ultimately broken through without any of the baggage. Guess we will never know.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

winstoda said:


> However if the legal documents in Wyoming are real, and I don't think anyone is disputing they are, the company has committed fraud.


Someone committed fraud, but we do not yet know who. Registering a business is pretty easy, you just fill out the forms online and send in the modest fee. And there doesn't seem to be any connection with Wyoming by anyone associated with either Ginault or TC. So that Wyoming filing could have been a plant by some other party, intended to cause harm when it is exposed.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

winstoda said:


> Never owned a Ginault, not a big enough fan of homage watches to lay down the amount of money these cost. But have followed these recent events with interest.
> 
> Not sure what actual scam has been perpetrated against the buyers of these watches unless the whole made in the USA claims have been debunked (if they were uncovered by the blogger I missed it).
> 
> ...


You have articulated this well and I agree with your thoughts.

The "Made in the USA" thing from a proven standpoint was based upon the legal definition of what that phrase denotes. Ginault advertised and marked the watch as "Made in the USA", but by their own marketing admitted that key components of the movement (springs, jewels, and shock absorbing system) were sourced overseas.

As these key components were from international sources, FTC rules state it cannot be marked "Made in the USA".

Once Ginault was made aware of the situation, they changed the case back text and offered replacement case backs to those who wished for them.

I think this was less a "scam" and more an oversight due to being a bit too proud maybe.

FWIW, the USA seems to have some of the most stringent rules regarding "made in". We are all aware of the Swiss rules and the loopholes companies use around that phrase. Heck, I have several "Made in Japan" Seiko's, but I think their rule is the product can be made anywhere as long as the facility is Japanese managed.

I do wonder what Wyoming will do as a result of the felony-level falsification of the documents. At a minimum they will dissolve the business entity. At a maximum they could attempt to extradite him from California to Wyoming to face the felony charge, but this seems unlikely unless a financial implication can be uncovered.

This is actually the one piece of data that doesn't fit any narrative I can come up with. Why Wyoming if the company is based in CA? Low taxes? Low oversight? I thought Delaware was the place to incorporate a business for those reasons. Why add those 2 extra names? I don't believe they were necessary for the application to be accepted. If you needed spoof names, why use forum handles? Why not just make some names up?


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Ahhh so an ACTUAL insult......that's the direction you wish to take?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not an insult perse but you can't go around making the statements you have when your history is so clear on homages and these watches. Nothing has changed from when you bought the watches and today except some blogger shared opinions that were well known when you bought the watches. So please get off your high horse.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> You have articulated this well and I agree with your thoughts.
> 
> The "Made in the USA" thing from a proven standpoint was based upon the legal definition of what that phrase denotes. Ginault advertised and marked the watch as "Made in the USA", but by their own marketing admitted that key components of the movement (springs, jewels, and shock absorbing system) were sourced overseas.
> 
> ...


We don't know who filed those papers in WY. We don't even know if the supposed WY documents are real, do we? Has anyone seen an official copy from WY? (EDIT: The docs are in fact filed with WY, as I just found them on the WY Sec'y of State's website, complete with identification of a registered agent as you'd expect.). If the document truly was filed, it could have been pretty much anybody. I've heard all sorts of theories, but I can't imagine why Ginault would file them.

Consider: it's easy enough to find out who the filer was, and if Ginault, their goose is fully cooked. They'll be banned from WUS and threads will be closed due to reference to a mod (whom I believe to be uninvolved, just like docvail). Just makes no sense at all to file a fraudulent legal document, especially because if it was Ginault, arguably Chris Vail would have a really good lawsuit against that company if he wanted to pursue one.

Whatever else Ginault wants, it certainly doesn't want to bankrupt itself with self-imposed legal problems. Guy seems to want to make watches. That's pretty much it. As the earlier post pointed out, the 2010 iteration of the company couldn't get anywhere. Too bad he took the shortcut he seems to have taken, because there's no reason in the world he couldn't have honed his skills making legit watches.

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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Ginault and a Square










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## LosAngelesTimer (Aug 24, 2017)

Avo said:


> ...that Wyoming filing could have been a plant by some other party, intended to cause harm when it is exposed.


You nailed it! I'm pretty sure it was the Rand Corporation in cooperation with the reverse vampires.


----------



## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> I don't blame you. i was considering it myself.
> 
> im more worried about the new bezel with fully marked indicies making the watch look a little busy rather than the actual colour or material, good to know theres a nice plan B though if it turns out to be the case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Yes, the fully marked indices on the bezel is what I am unsure about as well. Hopefully the aluminumn bezel modification will work well with the new OR. But if there are enough of us, we could perhaps ask for a ceramic bezel option similar to the one in the current OR.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> It's not an insult perse but you can't go around making the statements you have when your history is so clear on homages and these watches. Nothing has changed from when you bought the watches and today except some blogger shared opinions that were well known when you bought the watches. So please get off your high horse.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


So ignoring what I experienced personally constitutes 'nothing has happened' in your eyes.

I was formally a huge fan of homage watches. I started a thread on another well-known brand, albeit lower price and quality, as I felt they were pretty neat watches and of good value. But my experience with Ginault, how they avoided direct questions, acted shifty once held to a standard, and all of the content available in this thread and now in that blog post confirms what many of us now believe to be true.

Ginault is a shady company. If you wish to tie your name to that brand, you do you. Me? No thank you.

I call them out for what they appear to be, with far more proof showing that to be true than the contrary opinion that they are reputable.

Reputable people generally tend to not hide.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

I know nothing of this controversy. It’s a somewhat interesting read....

I do know something of standing in a warehouse-type sales location (Beijing) where locally-produced replica watches and replica movements were on display for examination and were being shown for sale. Right there. Cash and carry or camouflaged delivery to the USA. Replicas, fakes, false branding, your term di jour.

From five feet away, they would pass. Look, feel, manipulate up close (in your hands, or with mild magnification), and they were junk.

Some rooms had better quality. $500 USD.

All were made in the same shop, or were at least being shilled by the same individuals.

Why anyone would spend money, even a couple hundred USD on this #%^*^ is beyond me. Seriously, fireworks would be a far better investment (just don’t fly home with them).

If any part of a watch comes from this op, run, morality aside. BTW morality should never be set aside; nothing’s free.


----------



## centurionavre (Mar 31, 2013)

The WY company made $38 million from Federal government airplane parts contracts. I am not a lawyer but directionally that does seem wrong somehow, especially if people listed in the business documents claim they are not affiliated with the company. Also does the Federal government allow machines to be used to manufacture anything but aircraft parts?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

centurionavre said:


> The WY company made $38 million from Federal government airplane parts contracts.


Wrong. The "International Precision" that makes airplane parts is based in Chatsworth, CA. It has been in business since 1965. There is no evidence (other than the same name) that it has any connection whatsoever to the Wyoming paperwork, whose provenance is still unknown.

About

People, please try to read with greater comprehension. It would save everyone a lot of trouble.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm still surprised about how much some people care about what others wear in their wrists. To the point to call them names and try to convince not to wearing them with either 20+ pages long of mental masturbation, or just snobbish and patronising comments.

Perhaps you guys could open a separate thread to talk about this controversy and leave the guys that own a Ginault enjoy their watches in their own thread? Anything other than that is just lacking basic manners.


----------



## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> So ignoring what I experienced personally constitutes 'nothing has happened' in your eyes.
> 
> I was formally a huge fan of homage watches. I started a thread on another well-known brand, albeit lower price and quality, as I felt they were pretty neat watches and of good value. But my experience with Ginault, how they avoided direct questions, acted shifty once held to a standard, and all of the content available in this thread and now in that blog post confirms what many of us now believe to be true.
> 
> ...


I neither like nor support Ginault, that would be you. You didn't read my post and just responded with nothing of relevance in regards to my previous statement. My question remains, nothing has changed since you bought and now. So why has your opinion of Ginault changed?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Avo said:


> Wrong. The "International Precision" that makes airplane parts is based in Chatsworth, CA. It has been in business since 1965. There is no evidence (other than the same name) that it has any connection whatsoever to the Wyoming paperwork, whose provenance is still unknown.
> 
> About
> 
> People, please try to read with greater comprehension. It would save everyone a lot of trouble.


The Wyoming articles of Incorporation uses the same CA street address and lists their principal office in PA, but the papers were filed in Wyoming. What did we get wrong with our reading comprehension; other than a PO box and a different zip code on the link you provided(I am not trying to be combative but I may have missed something that you picked up on)?


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Consider: it's easy enough to find out who the filer was


Really? How? My guess is that Wyoming doesn't have state-of-the-art IT, and doesn't keep track of IP addresses of those go to their site to fill out a form. And even if they do, what if it was filled out at (say) a public library? And I'm not sure what forms of payment they accept, but I bet a postal money order is allowed. Try to trace one of those.



hwa said:


> and if Ginault, their goose is fully cooked. They'll be banned from WUS and threads will be closed due to reference to a mod


I don't think that's very likely. WUS is a for-profit business. Guess what sort of thing drives traffic to their site?

And while I'm on the subject of misunderstandings of business interests: you guys all know that Rolex benefits from the existence of a relatively small number of high-quality fakes, right? At the moment, there are long long waiting lists for buying any steel sports watch from Rolex. They're selling all they make. They apparently don't want to make more (for whatever reason, several of which are easy to imagine). They want you (yes you!) to go to a Rolex AD and plunk down a deposit, and maybe buy some other (less popular) Rolex to move yourself up the waiting list for the watch you really want (a currently common practice at ADs). Rolex does not want you to turn to the used market. What might keep you from buying used? The danger of getting a fake!

Rolex sells about 800,000 watches per year. How many watches do we think TC might have made, total? A thousand sounds high to me.

And even if Rolex did want to stamp out all fakes, the cost-benefit ratio is poor here. The cost of a civil suit against TC could easily approach a million dollars in legal fees. As for criminal liability, DAs all over the country are yawning.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

drttown said:


> The Wyoming articles of Incorporation uses the same CA street address and lists their principal office in PA, but the papers were filed in Wyoming. What did we get wrong with our reading comprehension; other than a PO box and a different zip code on the link you provided(I am not trying to be combative but I may have missed something that you picked up on)?


The Wyoming papers are obvious fakes. You think a company doing millions of dollars in business in California for over 50 years is going to suddenly file in Wyoming with a bunch of fake names and addresses? That just doesn't make any sense. We don't know who filed the Wyoming papers, or why. But it makes no sense to assume that it's the same people who've run a legitimate business in CA for half a century.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Really? How? My guess is that Wyoming doesn't have state-of-the-art IT, and doesn't keep track of IP addresses of those go to their site to fill out a form. And even if they do, what if it was filled out at (say) a public library? And I'm not sure what forms of payment they accept, but I bet a postal money order is allowed. Try to trace one of those.
> 
> I don't think that's very likely. WUS is a for-profit business. Guess what sort of thing drives traffic to their site?
> 
> ...


The "company" has a registered agent. If it's established to the State's satisfaction that someone hired the RA to perpetrate a fraud, I should think the WY Sec'y of State would require the RA to give up the name of the person who paid them to file the papers. There's a limit to what you're allowed to hide... So, when I say "easy," I mean easy in the context of litigation or an investigation by the State's AG.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Ntinos_H said:


> Yes, the fully marked indices on the bezel is what I am unsure about as well.


I'd like a ceramic bezel with no minute markers, like the original Tudor Sub:


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> The "company" has a registered agent.


Sure, and you can get one of those online for free in 3 minutes:
https://www.incauthority.com/start-llc/wyoming


----------



## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> Lol. Compare Ginault's response to Doc Vail's. Doc Vail immediately said that he wasn't connected to any of this and has completely denied everything. Ginault? A timid "we run business, we no never scam no one".
> 
> And you are correct that it will be used against him that's why he's not denying anything because he knows it's all true. He's backed into a corner. And there are no arrests, yet. Keyword yet. Don't forget about that little Wyoming filing. That would be a felony on top of the counterfeiting.


That little ploy of yours, altering Ginault reply exposes your bias, you are joining my ignore list.

Here is the correct reply:



drttown said:


> Here is an email that I sent to Ginault, over the weekend:
> 
> To whom it may concern,
> 
> ...


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> Again, what exactly is the scam?
> 
> The blog provides detailed evidence that the brand owner of Ginault uses a false name. Fair enough, but not a scam
> 
> ...


Lol now it's about scams huh? Going with the narrative set by the faceless John McMurty "we run bisness, we no scam no one".



Avo said:


> The Wyoming papers are obvious fakes. You think a company doing millions of dollars in business in California for over 50 years is going to suddenly file in Wyoming with a bunch of fake names and addresses? That just doesn't make any sense. We don't know who filed the Wyoming papers, or why. But it makes no sense to assume that it's the same people who've run a legitimate business in CA for half a century.


If you read the article's update, Tsung Chi has been receiving payment for the fakes using a bank acccount with the name Interntional Precision Inc.



hwa said:


> The "company" has a registered agent. If it's established to the State's satisfaction that someone hired the RA to perpetrate a fraud, I should think the WY Sec'y of State would require the RA to give up the name of the person who paid them to file the papers. There's a limit to what you're allowed to hide... So, when I say "easy," I mean easy in the context of litigation or an investigation by the State's AG.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk





Avo said:


> Sure, and you can get one of those online for free in 3 minutes:
> https://www.incauthority.com/start-llc/wyoming


The latest document here: https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/Fili...100009176229135186076170037248025154081219220

It looks like an actual scanned document and it shows that it was stamped received by Wyoming and it was signed by a Bill Havre.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

kelt said:


> That little ploy of yours, altering Ginault reply exposes your bias, you are joining my ignore list.
> 
> Here is the correct reply:


Oh no! How can I ever recover from being ignored by Mr. Kelt! It's over! I'm over!


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

kelt said:


> That little ploy of yours, altering Ginault reply exposes your bias, you are joining my ignore list.
> 
> Here is the correct reply:


It's not a ploy I'm making fun of the quote lmao. We run bisness we no never scam no one! - Doesn't answer any of the allegations.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Karlsson E said:


> It looks like an actual scanned document and it shows that it was stamped received by Wyoming and it was signed by a Bill Havre.


Right, it's from registeredagentsinc.com, which does business in all 50 states. The document is reporting a change of email address from [email protected] to [email protected], and says at the top:

"This change affects every entity that I represent." (Underlining in original.)

In other words, it's a generic form letter. This letter got attached to every file of every business in every state that is represented by this particular company.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Avo said:


> Right, it's from registeredagentsinc.com, which does business in all 50 states. The document is reporting a change of email address from [email protected] to [email protected], and says at the top:
> 
> "This change affects every entity that I represent." (Underlining in original.)
> 
> In other words, it's a generic form letter. This letter got attached to every file of every business in every state that is represented by this particular company.


And so? How does that letter being "generic" relate to you mentioning anyone can get a registered agent for free? I highly doubt that company is representing various entities all for free and from the kindness of their hearts.



drttown said:


> Here is an email that I sent to Ginault, over the weekend:
> 
> To whom it may concern,
> 
> ...


That is the same as this:

Question: What's 1+1? What's the number that comes before 3? Do you have a degree?

Answer: Uhhhhh.... I'll have you know that I have been living in this country for a very long time. Ask my coworkers and they'll tell you they like me.

Same ignore the question and deflect bs.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

You know why Tsung Chi aka John McMurty isn't denying this like Bill Clinton? 

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman." 

Bill Clinton was hit with a perjury charge for that statement. Tsung Chi's scared. I'd be too if I'm looking at a felony for that Wyoming filing on top of the counterfeiting and it's not like Tsung Chi sold one or two fakes, he's a big fish with connections to counterfeit factories in Asia as he's show in his website. Oh and I'm sure Rolex would like to know where those factories are to shut them down too.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

as he's shown* on his website.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Reposting this from Deepdweller's report available on Lexic.

This is the payment instructions sent by Tsung Chi to a customer of his in 2014. After the customer sent payment to this International Precision Inc bank account, he received the fake Rolex he ordered from Tsung Chi.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Then you see "John" Tsung Chi logged in into that exact [email protected] account in his Facebook post.

He deleted it already but he can't delete the archived copy here: https://archive.fo/4Umrp


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

There is NO denying that he's a fraud. None. Zero. Zilch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> There is NO denying that he's a fraud. None. Zero. Zilch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But Dec1968! The report was published by an anonymous online blogger!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can't trust Deepdweller even with all the links to the sources! We can only trust the statements coming from the faceless John McMurty and Charles Ginault! Everything they say is true! I trust them! We all know Ginault is such a transparent brand!


----------



## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Dec1968 said:


> There is NO denying that he's a fraud. None. Zero. Zilch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for insight


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> There is NO denying that he's a fraud. None. Zero. Zilch.


And there's me thinking you were on the fence. Glad you cleared that up.....


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

pepcr1 said:


> Has anything been proven? It's funny a man insinuates all this and does not have the balls to put his name to it! Same old crap that was brought up years ago, if you don't like it don't buy it! Simple as that.





pepcr1 said:


> By whom, the author of this nonsense? What a joke, nothing been proven, it's all hearsay. Anyway who cares, does it affect your life in anyway? No, so move on there's a lot of other things to worry about in this world that are more important.


What a joke right pepcr1? Nothing's been proven! It's all hearsay! Right?


----------



## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Karlsson E said:


> What a joke right pepcr1? Nothing's been proven! It's all hearsay! Right?


What do you have against Ginault for your panties to be so uptight?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> What a joke right pepcr1? Nothing's been proven! It's all hearsay! Right?


You registered today and all 16 of your posts are over here constantly refreshing the browser trying to hammer your point that he's a fraud.

People who have seen this have already made up their mind. It either made them not want one or not care and still want one.

Why are you here constantly tapping f5 and moving the message board towards this discussion? Upset Rolex owner? Watch brand upstarter? Reddit watch warrior of justice?

I'm trying to save you time here. I will buy one regardless of your posts condemning Ginault. Whether the accuracy of the article is 0% or 100%.

You're beating a dead horse. You will not change anyones opinions on the matter, their minds are made up. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, I'm trying to help you go outside and get some sun.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

pepcr1 said:


> What do you have against Ginault for your panties to be so uptight?


Haha! Just noticed that too.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

You guys see this?


















That's photoshopped!!1111!!!!11

Someone photoshopped Ginault's photos from years ago and this photoshopper was *so good* that he even got Ginault to post it himself!



Ginault said:


> Luckily along the way we were introduced to a master dial maker in the United Kingdom who has worked for a famous Swiss watch company specializing in dial production to help us realize this dream of creating a top of the line classic Submariner 16610 homage dial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*And you wouldn't believe this*, that photoshoppper also photoshopped TC's photos to match! And he also got him to post the photoshopped photos on TC's website here!!!! This photoshopper is a magician.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> There is NO denying that he's a fraud. None. Zero. Zilch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dec, I like you, but maybe you ought not be the standard bearer for this level of vitriol.

I mean, leaving those other Korean "homages" you were previously so interested in aside, you sold two Ocean Rovers. If you felt they were too close to replicas and felt Ginault was a dishonest brand, wouldn't destroying them be an ethically cleaner solution? By selling them, aren't you complicit in not only buying, but marketing and selling what you now rail against?

Respond as you will, but I'm out of the conversation. I'll wait to see how the Wyoming Sec of State investigation goes.


----------



## Jtragic (Jan 10, 2015)

International Precision Inc. at the Aria Printing address was also registered in NV, now inactive.










Why would these be registered to spoof a legitimate business? Credibility. TC did not take CC or PP, and frankly who would want to and have to worry about chargebacks? You can see in that email that he's "saving" the customer the PP fees by asking for a check or wire.

So you setup a corporate account, similar name to a business that "looks" like what you do (precision machining). People check the company name and several variations of International Precision companies in CA come up. Gives the customer a sense of comfort that there is a legitimate business that they are sending their money to.

The filings are done out of state likely because he needed a business license to get a corporate account with Citibank, and you can't have two companies in the same state with exactly the same name.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Jtragic said:


> International Precision Inc. at the Aria Printing address was also registered in NV, now inactive.
> 
> Why would these be registered to spoof a legitimate business? Credibility. TC did not take CC or PP, and frankly who would want to and have to worry about chargebacks? You can see in that email that he's "saving" the customer the PP fees by asking for a check or wire.
> 
> People check the company name and several variations of International Precision companies in CA come up. Gives the customer a sense of comfort that there is a legitimate business that they are sending their money to.


Except TC did take PayPal.



> II. PayPal & Other Means of Payment:
> 
> PayPal is the preferred method of payment (on small ticket size orders under $300) for members with good transaction history. To me that means you have 3+ feedback score on any of the major rep watch forums.
> 
> ...


That's from his own blog here: https://archive.fo/6lbIA

And two, he doesn't need to give his customers any sense of comfort. They get that from his forum status. He's a "Trusted Dealer" in the replica forums with people lining up to buy his fakes.


----------



## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Karlsson E said:


> You guys see this?
> 
> View attachment 14294611
> 
> ...


I think you still don't get it, NOBODY CARES! I'm done, it's nice outside


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> Except TC did take PayPal.
> 
> That's from his own blog here: https://archive.fo/6lbIA
> 
> And two, he doesn't need to give his customers any sense of comfort. They get that from his forum status. He's a "Trusted Dealer" in the replica forums with people lining up to buy his fakes.


So you're just going to ignore my post huh. What are you trying to do? I don't think anyone here is convinced the article is not accurate. Yes he dealt with fakes, now he's a legal watch seller. The article won't change our opinions. So what are you trying to accomplish here?


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

And keep in mind, the same people buying fakes from TC also transfer money to random unverifiable Chinese names using Western Union when they pay for the fakes they purchase from those other counterfeiters out there.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> So you're just going to ignore my post huh. What are you trying to do? I don't think anyone here is convinced the article is not accurate. Yes he dealt with fakes, now he's a legal watch seller. The article won't change our opinions. So what are you trying to accomplish here?


Everyone's free to post here and everyone can click the ignore button if they don't like what they see, which I invite you to do with me. I'm just discussing the current matter at hand.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> And keep in mind, the same people buying fakes from TC also transfer money to random unverifiable Chinese names using Western Union when they pay for the fakes they purchase from those other counterfeiters out there.


Lmao. So this is how you spend your day... talking crap about a former replica seller turned legal watch seller. I 100% understand someone not wanting to buy one and posting once or twice about it but the level you're taking this is kinda creepy. Did TC bully you in highschool?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> Everyone's free to post here and everyone can click the ignore button if they don't like what they see, which I invite you to do with me. I'm just discussing the current matter at hand.


I never said you're not free to post, and I definitely do not want to ignore you. I just find your psyche very interesting. How passionate you can be about a topic so mundane to most people. It speaks volumes.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

If I didn't know any better I'd say Karlsson and DeepDweller were one and the same.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> I never said you're not free to post, and I definitely do not want to ignore you. I just find your psyche very interesting. How passionate you can be about a topic so mundane to most people. It speaks volumes.


It doesn't seem mundane to me at all.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> If I didn't know any better I'd say Karlsson and DeepDweller were one and the same.


Nah. I joined because I saw this posted on a different forum.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> It doesn't seem mundane to me at all.


Hence I said most people. You still didn't answer my question. What is your end goal? You post proof over and over that Charles is TC but everyone is in agreement.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

What a coincidence. Lucky for us eh?


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Hence I said most people. You still didn't answer my question. What is your end goal? You post proof over and over that Charles is TC but everyone is in agreement.


I don't have to answer to you bud. I don't think everyone's in agreement. Plenty of people in-denial and cognitive dissonance around here and I'm just replying to them.


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Plenty of people in-denial and there's a lot of cognitive dissonance around here*


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> What a coincidence. Lucky for us eh?


You don't think this isn't being discussed anywhere else?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> I don't have to answer to you bud. I don't think everyone's in agreement. Plenty of people in-denial and cognitive dissonance around here and I'm just replying to them.


Must be an upset Rolex owner upset that his homage watch got homaged. Only Rolex owners would be so petty to spend an entire day on a message board convincing no one of anything.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Must be an upset Rolex owner upset that his homage watch got homaged. Only Rolex owners would be so petty to spend an entire day on a message board convincing no one of anything.


And you? A close friend of John McMurty/Charles Ginault/Tsung Chi perhaps?


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Karlsson E said:


> You don't think this isn't being discussed anywhere else?


Trouble is you're not participating in a discussion. You're pontificating.......


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> And you? A close friend of John McMurty/Charles Ginault/Tsung Chi perhaps?


Never met him, I ordered the OR2 and ask him questions on facebook. Looking forward to the watch, still deciding on aluminum vs ceramic. You have any suggestions on which one I should pick?


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

I don't think you've read my other posts but okay. Hit the ignore button bud.


----------



## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

Karlsson E said:


> And you? A close friend of John McMurty/Charles Ginault/Tsung Chi perhaps?


Not a fan of Ginault in particular but you sound a bit salty.


----------



## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> Never met him, I ordered the OR2 and email him questions on facebook. Looking forward to the watch, still deciding on aluminum vs ceramic. You have any suggestions on which one I should pick?


Good luck with getting your order! I think the aluminum bezel compliments the puckered .......-looking logo Ginault has but you've already placed an order so it doesn't matter what I suggest.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Karlsson E said:


> Good luck with getting your order! I think the aluminum bezel compliments the puckered .......-looking logo Ginault has but you've already placed an order so it doesn't matter what I suggest.


TC is such a generous watch dealer that I'm allowed to change around my order. But I did go with aluminum, so we have something in common!


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Karlsson E said:


> You guys see this?
> 
> View attachment 14294611
> 
> ...


Smoking Gun. Perfect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Dec, I like you, but maybe you ought not be the standard bearer for this level of vitriol.
> 
> I mean, leaving those other Korean "homages" you were previously so interested in aside, you sold two Ocean Rovers. If you felt they were too close to replicas and felt Ginault was a dishonest brand, wouldn't destroying them be an ethically cleaner solution? By selling them, aren't you complicit in not only buying, but marketing and selling what you now rail against?
> 
> Respond as you will, but I'm out of the conversation. I'll wait to see how the Wyoming Sec of State investigation goes.


I sold them before all of this went down. I explained why when I sold them. With all of this coming to light, yeah, I probably would have done that precise thing. Destroy them. But to be clear, I had no knowledge beyond suspicion at the time. Looking back, yeah, wouldn't have sold them.

Complicit? No. Didn't have the massive proof we have now.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Sure, and you can get one of those online for free in 3 minutes:
> https://www.incauthority.com/start-llc/wyoming


I don't follow your point. The RA filed the papers after someone paid for that service. Even if they took payment by bitcoin or some other anonymized service, the whole point of an RA is to accept service of process. The RA knows who paid them to file, or screwed up royally and would be in hot water. Since this particular RA is in business only to provide this service, they're not going to risk trouble filing papers for someone they cannot identify. Too stupid to chance.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

watchesaresocool said:


> Never met him, I ordered the OR2 and ask him questions on facebook. Looking forward to the watch, still deciding on aluminum vs ceramic. You have any suggestions on which one I should pick?


I believe to get an aluminum bezel you would have to order their first OR version, which is available now. For the ceramic it would be the new ORII. I don't believe the aluminum bezel will fit on the new watch; I could be wrong, though.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ok gents - let me pose this question. 

A drug dealer makes millions of dollars selling drugs illegally, that kill people, harm families, break laws, all of the bad aspects of being a drug dealer. 

He goes legit. 

Uses his profits from his drug dealing days to find his new business venture. 

Are you ok with that? 

The dollars he uses....are they tainted or are they ok to use?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

drttown said:


> I believe to get an aluminum bezel you would have to order their first OR version, which is available now. For the ceramic it would be the new ORII. I don't believe the aluminum bezel will fit on the new watch; I could be wrong, though.


Ginault will fit an aluminum insert into the ORII upon request, just like they will fit a flat or domed crystal, and either the Sellita or Ginault movement. I like that the ORII is very customizable!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Karlsson E (Jul 8, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Ok gents - let me pose this question.
> 
> A drug dealer makes millions of dollars selling drugs illegally, that kill people, harm families, break laws, all of the bad aspects of being a drug dealer.
> 
> ...


People are going to attack your question because of the "harshness".

Let's just say someone earns money from any illegal activity, he uses that money to start up a very legal, very cool cupcake shop but the authorities catch him.

This cupcake ship owner isn't magically absolved of his past crimes because he went "legit" with his cupcake business and the courts won't be letting him keep that cupcake shop at all.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

drttown said:


> I believe to get an aluminum bezel you would have to order their first OR version, which is available now. For the ceramic it would be the new ORII. I don't believe the aluminum bezel will fit on the new watch; I could be wrong, though.


You actually can order the aluminum bezel on the OR2. You cannot order a ceramic for the OR1. I am going with aluminum on the OR2 cause I really like the blue bezel with gilt numerals.


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I sold them before all of this went down. I explained why when I sold them. With all of this coming to light, yeah, I probably would have done that precise thing. Destroy them. But to be clear, I had no knowledge beyond suspicion at the time. Looking back, yeah, wouldn't have sold them.
> 
> Complicit? No. Didn't have the massive proof we have now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dude all this was known when they came out enough.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

badgerracer said:


> Ginault will fit an aluminum insert into the ORII upon request, just like they will fit a flat or domed crystal, and either the Sellita or Ginault movement. I like that the ORII is very customizable!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you for the clarification. I was wrong with my assumption!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Dude all this was known when they came out enough.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Are you saying that you knew John McMurty was Thomas Caddell when Ginault came out?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> I don't follow your point. The RA filed the papers after someone paid for that service. Even if they took payment by bitcoin or some other anonymized service, the whole point of an RA is to accept service of process. The RA knows who paid them to file, or screwed up royally and would be in hot water. Since this particular RA is in business only to provide this service, they're not going to risk trouble filing papers for someone they cannot identify. Too stupid to chance.


Looks to me like I can sign up for the exact same RA service used by whoever filed the Wyoming paperwork pretty darn easily:

https://www.registeredagentsinc.com/place-an-order/

They offer their services in all 50 states. How much due diligence do you think they're really doing for $200 a year?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Looks to me like I can sign up for the exact same RA service used by whoever filed the Wyoming paperwork pretty darn easily:
> 
> https://www.registeredagentsinc.com/place-an-order/
> 
> They offer their services in all 50 states. How much due diligence do you think they're really doing for $200 a year?


Enough to know who's paying them. Considering the purpose an RA serves, I expect the liability for proving unable to find the corporate officers would be substantial.

Are you an attorney, or just playing one on a watch forum?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I am not an attorney. The ones I know (and sometimes pay) won't do more than sneeze in my general direction for $200 …


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> I am not an attorney. The ones I know (and sometimes pay) won't do more than sneeze in my general direction for $200 &#8230;


$200? That buys about 20 minutes these days for a corporate atty.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Yeah, well that's what one year of service from registeredagentsinc.com costs.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Well, I’m not about to research WY resident agent law to see what liability RA might have if fronting a bogus company it cannot locate. Would be curious to know, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Seems like $200 is overpriced. These guys will do it for $25:



> The Economical Choice for Wyoming Registered Agent Service
> 
> When you form a Wyoming LLC or form a Wyoming Corporation, the law requires you to have a Wyoming registered agent to accept important mail and legal documents on behalf of your company at a Wyoming registered office physically located in the State of Wyoming. Your Wyoming registered office cannot be a PO Box or Wyoming Virtual Office. And frankly speaking, shouldn't be a residential home either. But meeting this bureaucratic hurdle doesn't need to suck up a lot of your time, be a burden to you, or cost you a ton of money. We view this as an opportunity to make your life easier and better instead of a waste of money. Hiring a great Wyoming resident agent can save you time and money vs hiring non-responsive and/or expensive Wyoming registered agents.
> 
> ...


https://www.wyomingagents.com

I can't believe these companies are taking on any kind of serious liabilty for this level of fees.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Good morning!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

GMArthur said:


> The 2 that get the most wrist time


You are a man with great taste. ;-)


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Statement from Ginault:

Unfortunately, it has come to our attention a very serious accusation against our brand was made in the past few days by someone who didn't identify him/herself.
https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell 

We felt it is our responsibility and the right thing to do to inform you of this. The accusations were factually untrue with what we suspect as fabricated evidence. No surprise to the timing of this attack as this very same type of smear campaign was behested when we first launched the Ocean Rover I three years ago. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/classic-submariner-lovers-ginault-ocean-rover-181070gsln-3860842.html#post36693226 

Instead of a yelling match, we focused on the quality of our timepieces, standing behind our products, and commitment to our customers. We believe these three pillars are the main reasons why the Ocean Rover is loved by so many. 

We are conducting a preliminary investigation. Once concluded, we will present the findings. 

We want all our customers to know that we run an honest business and have never done anything illegal. We are still on schedule with the end of Q3 to the beginning of Q4 delivery for our ORII. That said, if you no longer wish to purchase the ORII, let us know and we will process the refund within 48 hours.

Sincerely, 

John McMurtry


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> You registered today and all 16 of your posts are over here constantly refreshing the browser trying to hammer your point that he's a fraud.
> 
> People who have seen this have already made up their mind. It either made them not want one or not care and still want one.
> 
> ...


You're 100% correct, and theres a a few of them on here. Why someone would go to all this trouble is beyond me but thats the internet for ya!

Anyway dont take the bait guys.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> You're 100% correct, and theres a a few of them on here. Why someone would go to all this trouble is beyond me but thats the internet for ya!
> 
> Anyway dont take the bait guys.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Well, that one registered shortly after the "anonymous" guy that wrote that list of allegations, and shared info about it without anyone asking. My gut feeling is that both were the same person,because both had this weird need for attention and both were equally looking for approval from others. I'm not sure but I'd say he's some kind of attention whore that got scammed with a fake TC watch and now wants revenge against that. His other "investigation work" is a long list of same allegations about some weird British rugby player that was trying to sell Rolex fakes as the real thing. It really sounds like he has some sort of agenda. I couldn't care less, honestly.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> GMArthur said:
> 
> 
> > Seem like a reminder about not feeding the trolls is in order. Don't quote, don't reply.
> ...


Let's not make this a thing..


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

This thread was interesting.......it opened my eyes to a world I did not know it does exist..


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

DutchElite said:


> Statement from Ginault:
> 
> Unfortunately, it has come to our attention a very serious accusation against our brand was made in the past few days by someone who didn't identify him/herself.
> https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell
> ...


If you believe any of that, I have a bridge in the Sahara I'd like to sell you

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Are you saying that you knew John McMurty was Thomas Caddell when Ginault came out?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm saying the same general story, as Ginault just said in their statement was around when they released/started the company. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your aggressive attacks of Ginault and homages. But it just looks silly from someone who just a few months ago owned two Ginault watches. Please do some introspection and evaluate your opinions, and think about your statements before you make them. Listen trying to figure out the fruit of the poisonous tree is difficult.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> Statement from Ginault:
> 
> Unfortunately, it has come to our attention a very serious accusation against our brand was made in the past few days by someone who didn't identify him/herself.
> https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell
> ...


Investigation? This is a microbrand, not a multinational conglomerate.

And has anyone personally met Mr. McMurtry? Seems plenty of people have had written correspondence, but I've never heard anyone mention actually meeting the man in person. I can't even find a social media presence, and product manager types at small, up and coming businesses like Ginault, are usually big in professional networking (I've met a few folks like this and they are active on platforms like LinkedIn). I can't find any profiles of anyone by that name.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> I'm saying the same general story, as Ginault just said in their statement was around when they released/started the company. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your aggressive attacks of Ginault and homages. But it just looks silly from someone who just a few months ago owned two Ginault watches. Please do some introspection and evaluate your opinions, and think about your statements before you make them. Listen trying to figure out the fruit of the poisonous tree is difficult.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I was unaware of that 'general story'. Had I known I would not have knowingly done business with Ginault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

To those pressing the “redemption” story: 

“Ginault” now says that deepdweller’s blog post is the “very same kind of smear campaign behested when we first launched the Ocean Rover I three years ago,” pointing to the beginning of this very same thread.

That original “campaign” was nothing more than a group of WUS users who saw the offering, recognized it for what it was AT THAT TIME, which was an homage built seemingly out of nowhere by someone with many similarities to TC. That group correctly identified false, misleading, deceptive, and illegal marketing materials, to wit: “Made in USA” claim, and use of the Rolex glidelock, which is and remains Rolex’s property. And, of course, there was a lot of other disparagement that grew out of the marketing materials.

Some of you say Ginault made amends since then, notwithstanding that Ginault seems to have limited its actions to ceasing use of “Made in USA” casebacks and erasing the worst of its marketing malarkey. Meanwhile, the glidelock remains in use, there are yet new questions about the supposed American Made calibre, and beyond that, an outright denial of any connection to TC the repmaker. And, of course, there is the deflection of all the legitimate criticisms, dismissing them as a “smear.”

Redemption? Please.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> I'm saying the same general story, as Ginault just said in their statement was around when they released/started the company. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with your aggressive attacks of Ginault and homages. But it just looks silly from someone who just a few months ago owned two Ginault watches. Please do some introspection and evaluate your opinions, and think about your statements before you make them. Listen trying to figure out the fruit of the poisonous tree is difficult.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


You can't have it both ways here. You can't eat from the fruit of both trees to have your 'gotcha' moment.

This report wasn't available then. Period. You can't 'time travel' to make yourself feel good.

It's different. It's all different. Folks who loved the brand now question it. Some stick their heads in the sand (like you are now) and say 'meh, who cares', and others like me denounce the brand.

Get over yourself, Peter Pan, Count Chocula. I'd say you know better, but it's becoming obvious you don't and don't want to.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

OK, I said I was done, but this constant back and forth is cluttering up any new information being posted.

Dec says he bought two Ginaults and sold them being ignorant of any TC connection. HWA says the TC allegation and the marketing concerns were heavily discussed from almost day one. 

Going back to the early pages of this thread, you can see HWA is correct. Anyone who bought a Ginault from the spring of 2017 on should have been at least aware of the allegations. 

Dec, you used the drug dealer analogy earlier. Here is my spin on it. Imagine a drug user decides to become sober. He denounces his old ways, but what to do with the stash of drugs he has amassed?

Flushing them would cost him a lot of money, but would keep those drugs out of circulation and prevent further harm. Selling them on would allow him to recoup his losses, but now makes him complicit in the expanding the illicit enterprise. 

Again, I don’t mean to single you out, but this constant banging on this drum by someone with your history in very close representation “homages” is unbecoming. (I mean those Tissell things - if you think Ginault has a relationship with replica manufacturing, those Tissells are probably equally, if not more, involved). 

I look forward to hearing any new information regarding either party’s investigation. I’m tired of the repeated “Ginault is bad” comments. We heard you.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

drttown said:


> According to the blog by deepdweller, what I find more curious, is that a long time member and a mod have been listed on the Wyoming articles of Incorporation, with these two people being listed as business partners of Tsung Chi. Is the response/defense that *their names were listed and used illegally and without consent?*


Yes. It wasn't even their name in the case of the mod, it was their forum alias, which would never be used on a legal document. There are a lot of people at fault for that:

1. Tsung Chi, of course, for identity theft (in the case of Mr. Vail) and sheer stupidity (in the case of the mod).

2. The Wyoming Secretary Of State's office, for not catching someone listing a forum alias rather than a legal name.

3. DeepDweller, for (a) not obscuring the personal information when posting the document; (b) entertaining the possibility that the member and the mod might actually be associates of TC (in other words, assuming that TC, whom DD has just spent 10,000 words proving is an inveterate liar, didn't forge the names listed on the document); (c) entertaining the possibility that the mod, a retired military man, might be a link between a company to whom TC is attached and a contract for military equipment; (d) not contacting the member and the mod for comment; (e) *still* not redacting or obscuring or retracting any of the personal information or speculation about any of the above.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> OK, I said I was done, but this constant back and forth is cluttering up any new information being posted.
> 
> Dec says he bought two Ginaults and sold them being ignorant of any TC connection. HWA says the TC allegation and the marketing concerns were heavily discussed from almost day one.
> 
> ...


We can discuss the watch, the company, etc., without having to tear at each other, or at least we can try.

Perhaps Dec didn't research the watch as well or thoroughly as he might have, but his failure at the outset to suss out the truth is not on par with Ginault's efforts from the outset to hide its, and his criticisms now are not on par with Ginault's deflections. After all, Dec is but a WUS user; Ginault is a former forum sponsor, and a current watchmaker.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> OK, I said I was done, but this constant back and forth is cluttering up any new information being posted.
> 
> Dec says he bought two Ginaults and sold them being ignorant of any TC connection. HWA says the TC allegation and the marketing concerns were heavily discussed from almost day one.
> 
> ...


Good analogy. I'm telling you for me personally I did not know. Why would I lie about it?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> You can't have it both ways here. You can't eat from the fruit of both trees to have your 'gotcha' moment.
> 
> This report wasn't available then. Period. You can't 'time travel' to make yourself feel good.
> 
> ...


What? That didn't make any sense.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> If you think Rolex care about Ginault you'd be sadly mistaken. They have MUCH bigger fish to fry


Rolex recently fried a counterfeit parts supplier (Jensen Dinh aka "VintageWatchMaker.com"). I would imagine that if the connection between Ginault and the TC fakes is established in court, Rolex will jump in to claim their pound of flesh.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Ryeguy said:


> Again, what exactly is the scam?
> 
> The only potential "scam" uncovered is the odd Wyoming document, but all we know is it exists - not why it exists or why those names were added.


Using proceeds from an illegal business to fund a legal one is money laundering. One of the screenshots in DeepDweller's post lists the bank account number used to accept payments for TC Subs. If there's a record of funds coming out of that account for anything related to Ginault, that's a crime.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

cheld said:


> Rolex recently fried a counterfeit parts supplier (Jensen Dinh aka "VintageWatchMaker.com"). I would imagine that if the connection between Ginault and the TC fakes is established in court, Rolex will jump in to claim their pound of flesh.


Based on what evidence? some blog post from an unknown?? haha I doubt it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Good analogy. I'm telling you for me personally I did not know. Why would I lie about it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because you are intellectually dishonest, it seems to be an easy slide for you to take that dishonesty and turn it into a cry of ignorance. Either way you can end the discussion by stopping your clearly dishonest comments and attacks in some convoluted attempt to right a self made wrong.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

cheld said:


> Rolex recently fried a counterfeit parts supplier (Jensen Dinh aka "VintageWatchMaker.com"). I would imagine that if the connection between Ginault and the TC fakes is established in court, Rolex will jump in to claim their pound of flesh.


Highly doubt it. If Ginault was proven to be producing Rolex marked watches in parallel with their own brand I'd agree. VintageWatchmaker was actively contravening the Rolex trademark, hence the court case.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Whelp, Karlsson E has been banned - again.

Ironic that one of the main points raised against Ginault was creating multiple false online personna's.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Because you are intellectually dishonest, it seems to be an easy slide for you to take that dishonesty and turn it into a cry of ignorance. Either way you can end the discussion by stopping your clearly dishonest comments and attacks in some convoluted attempt to right a self made wrong.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I want to be VERY clear here. You called me 'intellectually dishonest'. If you intend to take this to a personal level and accuse me of being dishonest, we are going to have a bigger problem here. I'm requesting that you refrain from ANY AND ALL personal level attacks like this. I was in no way intellectually dishonest, nor will I be in the future.

I did not do mountains of research and did not read every single word of this or any other piece of information about Ginault prior to my two purchases. I've maintained that and will continue to do so. I simply didn't know. That's not an excuse, nor is it intentional ignorance. It's fact.

I came into the brand excited to have a faithful homage watch. I left with a bad taste in my mouth and suspicions left and right. I'm not alone.

Why you have some personal vendetta against me is becoming irritating. I will not tolerate any more from you on this matter. If you persist in attacking me personally, specifically calling me a liar or dishonest in any phrasing, I will report you. Period.

Stop. Now.

I do not like what Ginault represents as of today. That doesn't mean I didn't previously approve of them. I did. Twice. I bought two of them. I sold them. Now seeing this information 'fresh to me', I feel strongly about the brand and will voice my opinion.

I don't care if you do not Ike it. I am not here on this or any forum to assuage you.

This will be the last time you and I have any exchanges publicly on this forum in regards to you personally attacking me.

Now let's see if you're a gentleman or not and if will respect my request to stop the personal attacks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> Ironic that one of the main points raised against Ginault was creating multiple false online personna's.


Speaking of false online persona, whatever happened to mf1tym, the infamous Ginault shill? He was allowed to post garbage for quite a while before getting banned, IIRC.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> Highly doubt it. If Ginault was proven to be producing Rolex marked watches in parallel with their own brand I'd agree. VintageWatchmaker was actively contravening the Rolex trademark, hence the court case.


I think it comes down to financial victimization. This was my point regarding the use of the word "scam".

Those odd folks who bought TC watches knew they were buying costume jewellery. They were not deceived. Illegal, for certain, but not a "scam". I suspect it would be very difficult to bring criminal charges against TC due to the buyers being equally complicit in the crime of false goods trafficking.

The "VintageWatchmaker" was presenting replica watches as authentic and purposefully inflicting financial harm. This is why there were criminal charges. People were deceived.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

MX793 said:


> And has anyone personally met Mr. McMurtry?


You know he's about as real and Irish as a leprechaun.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Dec, you used the drug dealer analogy earlier. Here is my spin on it. Imagine a drug user decides to become sober. He denounces his old ways, but what to do with the stash of drugs he has amassed?
> 
> Flushing them would cost him a lot of money, but would keep those drugs out of circulation and prevent further harm. Selling them on would allow him to recoup his losses, but now makes him complicit in the expanding the illicit enterprise.
> 
> Again, I don't mean to single you out, but this constant banging on this drum by someone with your history in very close representation "homages" is unbecoming. (I mean those Tissell things - if you think Ginault has a relationship with replica manufacturing, those Tissells are probably equally, if not more, involved).


To this post, and thank you for saying what you said......

1) The drug dealer can easily contact the authorities and have them dispose of the drugs. That's the correct procedure and what he should do.

2) I did thoroughly enjoy Tisell as a brand. In no way did they ever show to be anything other than their own name brand, making fairly faithful homages to many brands. I got to know the owner of the brand fairly well and we had numerous exchanges privately. He was always forthcoming and honest, and never a hint of intention to 'make a fake Rolex'. I knew exactly where things stood with him.

That's an excellent point on Tisell. I want to be clear. I love the look and feel of a Rolex Submariner. I wanted to find a faithful homage, and bought many from various brands.

The thing is, Ginault 'felt off'. It's hard to put it into words, but when you know someone is shady, you become suspicious of nearly every aspect of what they say and do. And I was correct now looking back on it.

Did I want the two Ginault watches? Yes! They are excellent quality. But to me, they got too close to the flame, so to speak. When mine were mistaken as Rolex watches, as I mentioned previously in this forum, it bothered me personally. I felt dirty, so to speak. As if I was trying to pass these off as a Rolex Submariner. It happened multiple times in multiple venues. I started to then realize that wearing them made ME feel like the liar or the cheat, and I didn't like that feeling at all.

Of course I knew they weren't real Rolex watches, and they were branded Ginault everywhere, but the stink existed for me all the same.

What REALLY got to me, though, were my exchanges with 'John' from Ginault.

He was shady. Something always stunk when we had exchanges and he avoided accountability when we had communication. That, specifically that, makes me curious as to WHY he would be that way.

When you're trying to build a brand, that should be something you run AWAY from, not run towards. He always left details out and never directly
answered questions that created and maintained accountability on his part.

That leads you to question EVERYTHING shared.

That's why I feel the way I do.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> (I mean those Tissell things - if you think Ginault has a relationship with replica manufacturing, those Tissells are probably equally, if not more, involved).


That's quite an accusation against Tissell. Or is it just a deflection ploy on your part? I don't think Tissell homages were ever parts compatible with Rolex like Ginault homages nor Tissell ever had damning mountain of circumstantial evidences of being a former rep maker.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

RNHC said:


> That's quite an accusation against Tissell. Or is it just a deflection ploy on your part? I don't think Tissell homages were ever parts compatible with Rolex like Ginault homages nor Tissell ever had damning mountain of circumstantial evidences of being a former rep maker.


Tisell uses Miyota movements and zero parts fit from a Rolex to my personal knowledge. Maybe the ceramic insert, but that's about it. It's a $220 watch that says a Tisell and looks like a Submariner, at least the one model/variation.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> To this post, and thank you for saying what you said......
> 
> 1) The drug dealer can easily contact the authorities and have them dispose of the drugs. That's the correct procedure and what he should do.
> 
> ...


Cant argue with that, but please bare in mind others have spent thier hard earned on this watch and dont feel the same way you do about the brand.

So telling users they need to "search for thier moral compass" and that they lack integrity probably isnt the best way to express your frustration.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> So telling users they need to "search for thier moral compass" and that they lack integrity probably isnt the best way to express your frustration.


You know what we call consumers who don't care about the unsavory ethics and morals of the manufacturers as long as they can buy cheap, decent goods? Walmart shoppers. :-d


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> Cant argue with that, but please bare in mind others have spent thier hard earned on this watch and dont feel the same way you do about the brand.
> 
> So telling users they need to "search for thier moral compass" and that they lack integrity probably isnt the best way to express your frustration.


I see your point. I take integrity seriously. It's an assumption that others do as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Based on what evidence? some blog post from an unknown?? haha I doubt it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Based on the Wyoming document. The Secretary of State's office could refer the matter to the Wyoming AG's office. Mr. Fail may pursue legal action for identity theft. And the real International Precision Inc. - the one founded in 1965 - is probably not too happy about their company being fraudulently registered by Tsung Chi/Thomas Caddell/Charles Ginault/John McMurtry in Wyoming.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I find it odd that the Instagram page for Ginault links to a recent review and not to their website.....










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> Whelp, Karlsson E has been banned - again.
> 
> Ironic that one of the main points raised against Ginault was creating multiple false online personna's.


Not surprised. So who was his alter ego?


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Ryeguy said:


> I suspect it would be very difficult to bring criminal charges against TC due to the buyers being equally complicit in the crime of false goods trafficking.


In the US it is not illegal to own or purchase a fake watch, only to sell one.


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

I just like watches










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

GMArthur said:


> I just like watches
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, bless your heart. Aren't we special?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Not surprised. So who was his alter ego?


Not mf1tym. :-d


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

RNHC said:


> Not mf1tym. :-d


My monies on DeepDweller


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I want to be VERY clear here. You called me 'intellectually dishonest'. If you intend to take this to a personal level and accuse me of being dishonest, we are going to have a bigger problem here. I'm requesting that you refrain from ANY AND ALL personal level attacks like this. I was in no way intellectually dishonest, nor will I be in the future.
> 
> I did not do mountains of research and did not read every single word of this or any other piece of information about Ginault prior to my two purchases. I've maintained that and will continue to do so. I simply didn't know. That's not an excuse, nor is it intentional ignorance. It's fact.
> 
> ...


it's not a personal attack. You have entered into a public debate. Evidence and past remarks are certainly germaine to what is happening here. Look at the things you have said in the last few days about Ginault. Tthen think about the other facts present. The blogger included some facts that tied Cmsgtbo and Docvail to Ginault. We all dismissed those as clearly ridiculous, and they certainly are, nobody would ever use forum handles in that type of situation it's just not how things are done. Second all the facts this blogger has stated about Ginault were stated when they first released watches and the evidence is there for anyone who wanted to see it. Blindly accepting this blogger as 100% accurate on Ginault and then dismissing the accusations on bo and vail seems odd, or to me seems like a confirmation bias. How can you feel comfortable stating the things you have against Ginault and then when someone(me) calls you out on the fact you have owned two of the watches and have now flipped your position and started levyin strong accusations of crminal intent against a company that you were just financially supporting. If you think it's a personal attack to question how any of your comments make sense then so be it. But I think you should look at what a personal attack is. It's clear you are not grasping what i was trying to convey. And what I am trying to get across to you is that it's unfair for you to attack ginault and the people who buy the watches becuase you yourself support them. Not sure how you intend to engage in debates and then run off to claim personal attacks, we are debating a issue here and you have placed yourself in the middle of it. Nothing of a personal nature was said. You bought Ginault knowing what and who they were and now have decided you don't like homages and ginault and want to attack everyone and everything that fits that definiton and sorry but I can't just watch that without pointing out the glaring flaws present in your theories and historical actions.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> it's not a personal attack. You have entered into a public debate. Evidence and past remarks are certainly germaine to what is happening here. Look at the things you have said in the last few days about Ginault. Tthen think about the other facts present. The blogger included some facts that tied Cmsgtbo and Docvail to Ginault. We all dismissed those as clearly ridiculous, and they certainly are, nobody would ever use forum handles in that type of situation it's just not how things are done. Second all the facts this blogger has stated about Ginault were stated when they first released watches and the evidence is there for anyone who wanted to see it. Blindly accepting this blogger as 100% accurate on Ginault and then dismissing the accusations on bo and vail seems odd, or to me seems like a confirmation bias. How can you feel comfortable stating the things you have against Ginault and then when someone(me) calls you out on the fact you have owned two of the watches and have now flipped your position and started levyin strong accusations of crminal intent against a company that you were just financially supporting. If you think it's a personal attack to question how any of your comments make sense then so be it. But I think you should look at what a personal attack is. It's clear you are not grasping what i was trying to convey. And what I am trying to get across to you is that it's unfair for you to attack ginault and the people who buy the watches becuase you yourself support them. Not sure how you intend to engage in debates and then run off to claim personal attacks, we are debating a issue here and you have placed yourself in the middle of it. Nothing of a personal nature was said. You bought Ginault knowing what and who they were and now have decided you don't like homages and ginault and want to attack everyone and everything that fits that definiton and sorry but I can't just watch that without pointing out the glaring flaws present in your theories and historical actions.


Because you are conflating things and altering the timeline as if I knew some (or all) of this data prior to my purchases.

I have made it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR my knowledge and timeline of events.

Either accept that or move on. FFS, dude, let it go.

I'm not going to concede to you and you won't win through sheer exhaustion.

Take this to PM's with me, not on here. We've exhausted this subject.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> My monies on DeepDweller


Why was Karlsson E banned? I looked up his posts and I didn't see anything that warranted a ban. Did I miss something? And so what if he's DeepDweller? Can you blame the guy for wanting to share what he'd found? Be appreciated for his work?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

@JLS36 TLDR your post but paragraphs, man. You are allowed to hit "enter" key twice. Gee whiz.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Either accept that or move on. FFS, dude, let it go.


Perhaps you should practice what you preach and stop your personal crusade against Ginault and the people who own and enjoy the watches. The broken record act is just irritating.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> That's quite an accusation against Tissell. Or is it just a deflection ploy on your part? I don't think Tissell homages were ever parts compatible with Rolex like Ginault homages nor Tissell ever had damning mountain of circumstantial evidences of being a former rep maker.


The accusation is that by buying a Ginault, you are supporting businesses (i.e. in the Ginault supply chain) who are *currently* also making money in the replica manufacturing industry.

My point is, if you believe the contract manufacturers used by brands such as Tissell aren't, you are naive. How much modification would it take to turn a Tissell sub homage into an illegal rep as bad as a TC? From what I see, it is a dial logo away.

Tissell is far from the only brand in this world, but it is the brand formerly endorsed by the other poster.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

RNHC said:


> Why was Karlsson E banned?


Could not see anything wrong with his posts.........but maybe too many of them in a very short time span..? And only in this thread..? The highly contraversial Ginault thread..?

No idea about forum rules I do have...


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## waterdude (Apr 19, 2012)

Kudos to Rolex for creating such timeless design elements that there’s an entire industry of imitations, and that gives us something besides Star Wars to argue about on the internet.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

LowIQ said:


> Could nor see anything wrong with his posts.........but maybe too many of them in a very short time span..? And only in this thread..? The highly contraversial Ginault thread..?
> 
> No idea about forum rules I do have...


Maybe the mods checked the IP and found Deepdweller and KarlssonE were the same person. You can't just create a new account to expunge previous rule contraventions.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Perhaps you should practice what you preach and stop your personal crusade against Ginault and the people who own and enjoy the watches. The broken record act is just irritating.


Again, I'm not attacking a person on the forum like he is attacking me. You can use the ignore function as easily as anyone.

I'm free to share my opinions and thoughts and am doing my best to avoid any personal attacks out of respect for the forum members.

That these opinions and thoughts differ from yours is what YOU need to come to terms with, not the other way around.

That we disagree is important. That you try to censor me is equally important, but for very different reasons. Do notice that I'm not trying to tell you how to share your opinions or to not share your opinions.

That door swings both ways.

As for what you label a 'personal crusade'.....that's your issue to either ignore or approve of. It's as simple as that. Based upon my experience and the data available, I feel strongly towards Ginault in one direction. You feel differently. It's that simple.

Deal with it like an adult.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> The accusation is that by buying a Ginault, you are supporting businesses (i.e. in the Ginault supply chain) who are *currently* also making money in the replica manufacturing industry.
> 
> My point is, if you believe the contract manufacturers used by brands such as Tissell aren't, you are naive. How much modification would it take to turn a Tissell sub homage into an illegal rep as bad as a TC? From what I see, it is a dial logo away.


That makes sense. We should all stop buying Sub homage watches - starting with the most egregious one, Ginault, since it's the one that most likely involved in replica manufacturing industry. ;-)


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> The accusation is that by buying a Ginault, you are supporting businesses (i.e. in the Ginault supply chain) who are *currently* also making money in the replica manufacturing industry.
> 
> My point is, if you believe the contract manufacturers used by brands such as Tissell aren't, you are naive. How much modification would it take to turn a Tissell sub homage into an illegal rep as bad as a TC? From what I see, it is a dial logo away.
> 
> Tissell is far from the only brand in this world, but it is the brand formerly endorsed by the other poster.


Tisell is nowhere close to a rep in build quality, design, and ability to turn it into a forgery. That said.....point made.

Let's add some perspective and clarity.

Currently I own a total of ZERO watches that aren't genuine models, and a sum total of ZERO watches I own resemble anything other than EXACTLY what they are, based off of no one else's design. 100% of my watch collection is genuine from the original manufacturer. All of my previous support and financial backing (as you put it) of ANYTHING resembling anything other than itself came to a complete and total end - due to Ginault.

I went 'legit', if you will. If I can't wear the real thing, I won't wear it. Period.

Here's what I own and wear:
• Omega 2254.50 
• Seiko SKX175
• Seiko SRP777
• Seiko SRPA21

Ginault is what tipped those scales to ONLY owning the real thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> I see your point. I take integrity seriously. It's an assumption that others do as well.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So do I as do most. but in this case it doesn't make me or any other supporters of the brand less consistent as far as integrity is concerned.

integrity relates to ones choice of action and consistently in application.

I'm always going to support people who I feel are attempting to transition and i say transition as thats what it is, its a process (sonetimes a slow one) which doesn't happen overnight.

but as long as its happening im ok with it and can live with the "grey areas" for now.

I understand your viewpoint though.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

My only 2 homage watches, one of them not even mine but my wifes travel watch, are from Steinhart...

Relatively cheap watches, good quality etc etc...no lies, no deception...

Ginault looks good, and might be very good, but, for me, the hand built in the USA, the claim about inhouse movement and so on puts me off.....together with the price, a premium price, which seems only possible through those (false?) claims.......

I do understand the reaction of Ginault owners here in this thread.....

I also do understand somebody selling a Ginault now and getting something else...if I would have one it would feel tainted to me...everytime I would look at it.....



I only joined to find more info about the Steinharts, initially, bevore I bought the Steinharts, and then kept reading a bit more in other threads, posted some pics, later on, got some likes, thought I post some more, but, now, it is probably time for me to say good by to this forum...

As a PS

I would quite happily buy a Tisell (I had to look them up...as I am not a watch guy) if I loose the Steinhart......or another Steinhart...


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> That makes sense. We should all stop buying Sub homage watches - starting with the most egregious one, Ginault, since it's the one that most likely involved in replica manufacturing industry. ;-)


Why stop with Sub homages? There are a couple Helson offerings which fly pretty darn close to the flame as well.

This is also my point made (much) earlier regarding those various Seiko Tuna and MM300 clones being discussed in other threads. Those are also only a dial logo away as far as I am concerned. What is worse (in my mind) is these various other homages (just to name a few) are stealing the design IP of current production watches. At worst, Ginault stole the design IP of a mid-case that is a decade out of production.

There are certain individuals who seem very focused on Ginault, yet very absent on these others.

Now that I am thinking about it, if Ginault offered their OR version 1 with drilled lugs, a fully indexed bezel, and a non-clone Glidelock clasp (as I asked for in my review nearly 2 years ago), would this thread be nearly 5,000 posts long at this point?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> At worst, Ginault stole the design IP of a mid-case that is a decade out of production.


The worst would be stealing the design IP of Glidelock that is *currently* in production, no?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Ryeguy said:


> ... would this thread be nearly 5,000 posts long at this point?


This thread is 5,000 posts long because Ginault invited scrutiny to itself with all those bogus claims in the beginning.

Frankly, if Ginault just released the Ocean Rover without BS claims, we'd have just thought it was a nice quality, maybe pricey Sub homage.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

I would not mind trying out an aftermarket glidelock on my old TagHeuer.....


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

RNHC said:


> The worst would be stealing the design IP of Glidelock that is *currently* in production, no?


Depends upon your viewpoint of the value of the two. My thought is the mid case value is greater than the clasp value.

Plus, you can buy those similar / same clasps on eBay all day long. IP is only protected if defended. Rolex seems to not defend the IP infringement on the clasp design as copies are widely available.

I'm not disagreeing, however, on the use of the clasp. As I have repeatedly said, I would have preferred Ginault to have developed something more unique and original, such as done by Monta. Even a more narrow version of the ubiquitous slide out extension as used by numerous micros would have been acceptable (especially if the Ginault logo was engraved on the extension - that would've looked good IMO).

I accepted the clasp when I bought mine for $518 because I wasn't expecting the bracelet to be much good at that price point. (The bracelet itself is actually quite well done). When priced at greater than Steinhart prices, I would expect something more.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

And while we are at it, it looks like Tissell uses that same Glidelock copy clasp.


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## yinzburgher (May 9, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> Statement from Ginault:
> 
> Unfortunately, it has come to our attention a very serious accusation against our brand was made in the past few days by someone who didn't identify him/herself.
> https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell
> ...


Hi DutchElite. Sorry if you've answered this but I've looked and I don't see it. Where did you find this statement from Ginault/McMurtry[sic]? I don't see any statement on Ginault's website or Facebook page. If it is on another forum I would advise to not respond with a link (for fear of being served a WUS demerit) but rather just mention the name of the forum or something it rhymes with. TIA.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

yinzburgher said:


> Hi DutchElite. Sorry if you've answered this but I've looked and I don't see it. Where did you find this statement from Ginault/McMurtry[sic]? I don't see any statement on Ginault's website or Facebook page. If it is on another forum I would advise to not respond with a link (for fear of being served a WUS demerit) but rather just mention the name of the forum or something it rhymes with. TIA.


Hi, Found this in my email this morning. Guess because i have pre-ordered the OR2 and im on the mailing list now.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi!


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Currently wearing my "Far From Home Rover"
With movie theater lume.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> And while we are at it, it looks like Tissell uses that same Glidelock copy clasp.


I've owned Tisell and Ginault. It's similar for sure, but not the same. Definitely gray area, though.....and not comfortably so.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

RNHC said:


> Mr Auto said:
> 
> 
> > So telling users they need to "search for thier moral compass" and that they lack integrity probably isnt the best way to express your frustration.
> ...


Interesting take and obvious slight towards Walmart shoppers. How do you feel about consumers of high-end luxury goods that don't care how about the unsavory ethics and morals of the manufacturer's? For instance jewelry containing diamonds or rubies, exotic furs in clothing and even something as ubiquitous as an Apple cell phone? You know they're made in Chinese sweatshops where employees are treated like slaves and the suicide rate is insane? Do those consumers get a pass or should we ridicule them publicly as well?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

It's 2019, where virtually everyone has some form of social media presence, especially with regards to selling your products solely online. This should 100% eliminate the concerns and validate Ginault once and for all.

Or the opposite.

Silence to this request will be deafening.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> I've owned Tisell and Ginault. It's similar for sure, but not the same. Definitely gray area, though.....and not comfortably so.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not to mention an Invicta which was modded to resemble a 5513.

Reminds me about that half year after I quit smoking and became so vehemently anti-smoking to the point of becoming a nuisance to those around me.


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## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

I dont really like subs but this thread is making me want a Ginault.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> Not to mention an Invicta which was modded to resemble a 5513.
> 
> Reminds me about that half year after I quit smoking and became so vehemently anti-smoking to the point of becoming a nuisance to those around me.


You're absolutely correct on the Invicta.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

skuzapo said:


> I dont really like subs but this thread is making me want a Ginault.


Knock yourself out. Just don't pay full price. Ryeguy paid only $518 brand new for his.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

skuzapo said:


> I dont really like subs but this thread is making me want a Ginault.


haha Go for it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

cheld said:


> Rolex recently fried a counterfeit parts supplier (Jensen Dinh aka "VintageWatchMaker.com"). I would imagine that if the connection between Ginault and the TC fakes is established in court, Rolex will jump in to claim their pound of flesh.


That case was settled out of court:
https://www.pacermonitor.com/public...tch_USA_Incorporated_v_Vintage_Watchmaker_LLC

Here is some info about it before settlement:
https://wristwatchreview.com/2018/08/10/rolex-watch-usa-incorporated-v-vintage-watchmaker-llc/

vintagewatchmaker.com is now defunct. My guess (only that) is that they agreed to cease and desist sale of aftermarket parts with the Rolex brand name and/or logo on them, which seems to have been Rolex's main concern. Note that there are tons of sellers of things like bezel inserts and glidelock clasps that fit Rolex watches (but do not say Rolex on them). Rolex does not seem to be going after them (and this would be a much tougher case for them to make).


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dammit, now I want a Tissell. But I've already ordered the ORII so technically I'm already lined up for a ceramic bezel...


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Brush diver said:


> Interesting take and obvious slight towards Walmart shoppers. How do you feel about consumers of high-end luxury goods that don't care how about the unsavory ethics and morals of the manufacturer's? For instance jewelry containing diamonds or rubies, exotic furs in clothing and even something as ubiquitous as an Apple cell phone? You know they're made in Chinese sweatshops where employees are treated like slaves and the suicide rate is insane? Do those consumers get a pass or should we ridicule them publicly as well?


People Of Walmart - Funny Pictures of People Shopping at Walmart : People Of Walmart


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

skuzapo said:


> I dont really like subs but this thread is making me want a Ginault.


I've had various sub homage watches and enjoyed them. I had the 1st Ginault but sold it, but I would love to buy the OR2 now, even moreso after all this new hoopla! I think this will have the same effect as the original post when Ginault launched. I couldn't wait to get one. 

I can't believe this thread is so drawing out the worst of the worst. It's still drawing attention to the brand and in the end I think Ginault will do just fine, and I hope so!

There are so many bigger things in life deserving this kind of scrutiny, but nobody notices nor bothers. So really give this unknown brand of a watch all the hell you can muster.

Hypocrites abound!!!

RD


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Meanwhile at the Seiko subforum: https://www.watchnation.com/product...eel-black-dial-automatic-mens-watch-srpd91k1/

I mean, I'm pretty sure the Morals Legion will march against that preposterous copy of the ubiquitous Rolex Submariner, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> Why stop with Sub homages? There are a couple Helson offerings which fly pretty darn close to the flame as well.
> 
> This is also my point made (much) earlier regarding those various Seiko Tuna and MM300 clones being discussed in other threads. Those are also only a dial logo away as far as I am concerned. What is worse (in my mind) is these various other homages (just to name a few) are stealing the design IP of current production watches. At worst, Ginault stole the design IP of a mid-case that is a decade out of production.
> 
> ...


You keep ignoring the dishonesty, unrequited.

There are a billion or so homages in every walk of life. Ginault stands out for claiming credit for a copy.

It's easy to argue the straw man, and you keep ignoring the one fact that matters.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Meanwhile at the Seiko subforum: https://www.watchnation.com/product...eel-black-dial-automatic-mens-watch-srpd91k1/
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty sure the Morals Legion will march against that preposterous copy of the ubiquitous Rolex Submariner, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do...


Most are bothered more by the POS who owns G and the lies behind it all, not the homage factor. Personally I don't like either

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

OK, I'm really trying to enjoy this from the sidelines, but for your comment I just couldn't help myself:











mrmorfo said:


> Meanwhile at the Seiko subforum: https://www.watchnation.com/product...eel-black-dial-automatic-mens-watch-srpd91k1/
> 
> I mean, I'm pretty sure the Morals Legion will march against that preposterous copy of the ubiquitous Rolex Submariner, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Ginault stands out for claiming credit for a copy.


Silver Watch Co claims to be trying to make as close a copy as possible of the Rolex 5517:



> "As close to the real thing as possible..."
> 
> These words became our mission...so, we made our ARCHETYPE ONE series to be an exacting tribute to the great and elusive Rolex 5513/5517 Military and the lesser known Tudor milsub but with the highest grade modern materials.


https://www.silverwatchco.com/about.html


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Isn't the patent still good on Glidelock? If Tsung Chi got Rolex's attention, wouldn't the Glidelock be an easy way to bring him to court?



Avo said:


> That case was settled out of court:
> https://www.pacermonitor.com/public...tch_USA_Incorporated_v_Vintage_Watchmaker_LLC
> 
> Here is some info about it before settlement:
> ...


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

mrmorfo said:


> I mean, I'm pretty sure the Morals Legion will march against that preposterous copy of the ubiquitous Rolex Submariner, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do...


I was going to say you are missing the point but pinkybrain beat me to it. See City74 post for explanation. But don't worry about it. The life will go on.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes, and it looks like they did a pretty good job, but unfortunately they reversed the angle of the inside v. outside edge of the crystal. That's why the crystal distortion looks wrong compared to a superdome. I informed them of this and provided a cut-away to compare against their own. Hopefully they'll fix this. For perfect Submariner superdome-type distortion, see the new Lorier. They did it perfectly.

Anyways, why is Silver Watch Co. relevant here? It's hard to keep up with this thread, but did it go down a red herring rabbit hole?



Avo said:


> Silver Watch Co claims to be trying to make as close a copy as possible of the Rolex 5517:
> 
> https://www.silverwatchco.com/about.html


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Silver Watch Co claims to be trying to make as close a copy as possible of the Rolex 5517:
> 
> https://www.silverwatchco.com/about.html


True. But they dont claim any design credit, don't claim Made in USA, dont claim a homemade calibre. They said: 5513 is unobtainium, here ya' go. Unabashed. Honest. Like it or don't, buy it or don't.

I don't own one. If I bought one, it would be used for a mod base. But that's just me.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Who said pics?


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Person A: Ginault's owner, Tsi Chung, lied to everyone about everything

Person B: So what - what's wrong with homage watches? X,Y and Z make homage watches. Why aren't you outraged about that?

Person A: facepalm, sigh.

---

I'm still waiting for someone to say: "_*look, there's irrefutable evidence that Ginault's owner, Tsi Chung, is a compulsively lying douche. But you know what, he makes a pretty good watch and I like mine a lot. In fact, Tsi Chung's lies and deception are actually pretty funny (in the dark comedy sense) and make for a good story to go along with my watch.*_"

That, right there, is all it would take to kill the haters. But you still haven't figured it out.


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

pinkybrain said:


> Anyways, why is Silver Watch Co. relevant here? It's hard to keep up with this thread, but did it go down a red herring rabbit hole?


Some have made the claim that Ginault has gone too far in their effort to make their product as close as possible to the what they would see as the perfect Submariner, i.e. a "1 to 1" copy/combination of Rolex's designs. For them, this is another nail in the Ginault coffin.

Presumably, these individuals should be equally offended by what Silver has done, not least of which is their direct statement that it is their express intention to duplicate/replicate the 5513 as closely as possible.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

pinkybrain said:


> Person A: Ginault's owner, Tsi Chung, lied to everyone about everything
> 
> Person B: So what - what's wrong with homage watches? X,Y and Z make homage watches. Why aren't you outraged about that?
> 
> ...


 I said this yesterday: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...over-181070gsln-3860842-466.html#post49333223

Give me my credit, pal


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Haha, OK. But, for the record, I don't think Ginault's Glidelock is legal (a minor quibble - I honestly don't care and it seems like everyone is making them anyways).



watchesaresocool said:


> I said this yesterday: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...over-181070gsln-3860842-466.html#post49333223
> 
> Give me my credit, pal


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## nolte (Jun 28, 2016)

All this is interesting to me because the 'homage community' is.... complicated.

I don't want to say 'hypocritical' because I don't think that's the right word. I don't mean to judge.

It seems like, from reading posts (not just in this thread) that many of the people that buy 'homage' watches are both enamored and repulsed by the watches they find themselves buying. 

It may be that I've just read a bunch of posts by people that are shaming 'homage buyers' by trying to make them feel dirty.

...but geez all of this is interesting , perplexing, flabbergasting, bewildering, and (as mentioned) complicated when you really just sit back and think about it abstractly. It may be easier to do that when you don't have money or product involved.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

jarlaxle said:


> Some have made the claim that Ginault has gone too far in their effort to make their product as close as possible to the what they would see as the perfect Submariner, i.e. a "1 to 1" copy/combination of Rolex's designs. For them, this is another nail in the Ginault coffin.
> 
> Presumably, these individuals should be equally offended by what Silver has done, not least of which is their direct statement that it is their express intention to duplicate/replicate the 5513 as closely as possible.


I don't understand this persistent narrative and pushback. Ginault, for chrissake, is the one who claimed to build a 1:1 to the Rolex. Why Ginault's defenders feel the need to deflect that is beyond me. And still, so what? So what if the OR is built to be a 16610 stand-in? There are a million of those.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

Dateline Hoboken, NJ USA:

A large, irritated man claiming notoriety as “Sportura” was busted earlier today for fencing replica Big Macs (veggie burgers swimming in thousand island dressing) to an unsuspecting Invicta sales representative. Both men were ultimately taken in to custody....

Details and corroboration pending. This story has not been verified.

Back to Perry Mason’s “Pre-owned or Stolen Copy Watch Jamboree” >>>


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

I will say while I don’t tend to gravitate towards homages, I love classic style and I’m fully onboard when the original manufacturer brings back an old model. I really like the Ginault simply from how nicely made it seems to be. I remember following the Silent Service when that was announced. I would have never expected to see any of what’s happened now back then.

I messaged “John McMurtry” awhile back for a discount code if it was available sure I was actually going to pick up one. The only other homages I’ve owned was the XW Tsunami before the Seiko reissue days and a Steinhart MilSub which I thought was nice but just too big for what it was supposed to be. I was told all codes had expired and I do think if the 20% had been available I probably would have bought a no dare blue lume. This story seems too crazy to be real.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

To keep things simple, here’s a chart which codifies most recent opinions. Rather than repeating them over and over more or less verbatim, we can just give the number. Since this is WUS, we’ll put them in the form of hours on a clock. Smaller gradations of opinion can be given as minutes after the hour, rather than getting into laborious detail.

1 – Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is a crook.
2 – Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is misled.
3 – Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, but anyone who buys one isn’t really wrong to do so.
4 – Ginault was evil before, and shady recently, so you’re stupid or evil if you buy from them.
5 – Ginault may have been shady before, and may still be shady, so you’re stupid if you buy.
6 – Ginault may or may not have been shady before, so wait on conclusions.
7 – Ginault may have been shady before, but has gone straight, but still, buyer beware.
8 – Ginault may have been shady before, but has gone straight, so deal with confidence.
9 – Ginault may or may not have been shady before, but they’re great now, so I don’t care.
10 – Ginault makes great products and has survived 2 years of attacks. What’s wrong with everybody?
11 – Random personal insult about grammar, taste, or ethics.
12 – Detailed response to random personal insult with added insult.
(It's inconsistent with the system, but perhaps useful to make 12:30, "Detailed response by original insulter to original insultee saying that personal insults are wrong")

So a sample coded conversation might be:
A: 3
B: 8:30
A: 1:40!
B: 10!
A: 11!!
B: 12!!!!
A: 12!!!!!!
B: 12!!!!!!!!!

Etc.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

nolte said:


> ...but geez all of this is interesting , perplexing, flabbergasting, bewildering, and (as mentioned) complicated when you really just sit back and think about it abstractly. It may be easier to do that when you don't have money or product involved.


+1..

strange world...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Belloc said:


> To keep things simple, here's a chart which codifies most recent opinions. Rather than repeating them over and over more or less verbatim, we can just give the number. Since this is WUS, we'll put them in the form of hours on a clock. Smaller gradations of opinion can be given as minutes after the hour, rather than getting into laborious detail.
> 
> 1 - Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is a crook.
> 2 - Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is misled.
> ...


That's hilarious! A question: is this available as a GMT?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

pinkybrain said:


> Person A: Ginault's owner, Tsi Chung, lied to everyone about everything
> 
> Person B: So what - what's wrong with homage watches? X,Y and Z make homage watches. Why aren't you outraged about that?
> 
> ...


Hang on a second, perhaps I didn't use your template but here we go: https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/clas...over-181070gsln-3860842-421.html#post49298775

Happy to change it to your version, as I quite like it too. But yes, essentially that's what I think. I also have a couple of Zara dress shirts that I'm sure have been made in a contractor's workshop in Bangladesh in a not-so-working-hazards-free environment, so there you go. I still don't think I'm morally corrupt, though.

There were many more that replied like that initially, but it all got buried in ad-hominems, straw man's and authority phalacies. I hope we can get back to the idea of this thread which is for Ginault owners and fans to discuss new models, share photos and that kind of stuff. You know, like the other threads where they don't have dozens of people coming in to judge them in very negative and derogatory terms. And of course, open a thread to discuss this controversy, etc. But everything in its place, prettyprettyplease.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

9.45!!! (╯°□°)╯


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

hwa said:


> That's hilarious! A question: is this available as a GMT?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, that was my first thought! It was going to stand for "Ginault Morality Table," but I didn't have the patience to come up with 24 shades of opinion.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

pinkybrain said:


> Anyways, why is Silver Watch Co. relevant here? It's hard to keep up


I'm trying so hard not to refer to your username here ...

But since you asked: I brought up Silver in response to the claim of hwa that "Ginault stands out for claiming credit for a copy." Not so. Silver claims to have made a copy. I quoted hwa's claim verbatim and then on the next line made my comment on Silver. If you can't keep with that, well, I don't know what to tell you.

And: 9.45


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Belloc said:


> To keep things simple, here's a chart which codifies most recent opinions. Rather than repeating them over and over more or less verbatim, we can just give the number. Since this is WUS, we'll put them in the form of hours on a clock. Smaller gradations of opinion can be given as minutes after the hour, rather than getting into laborious detail.
> 
> 1 - Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is a crook.
> 2 - Ginault is evil, the founder is a crook, and anyone who buys one is misled.
> ...


Hilarious!! i'm with it.

It's 9.45 over here.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I like my Ginault and it fits my small wrist better than most watches. I have, about, a 6.5" wrist and it just fits me. It is easier to put on and to get over my hand, unlike my Tisell; they have similar bands and clasps. I don't like to adjust the clasp everytime I take the watch off and put it on; the Ginault will slide over my hand and my Tisell will not. I like the taper of the band from 20mm, at the lugs, to 16mm at the clasp. I just purchased a Trident Pro MK3, 40mm, and like it just about as much as the Ginault, but the band is a little wider at only a 20mm, tapering down to 18mm; to me it is noticeable on my wrist. Even with what is being said and going on, I think I will still keep the one I have and also look forward to receiving the ORII.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

487 pages, and nearly a post a minute. No, I can't keep up (some of us are discretely working while posting, or is it the other way around?).

My point should be obvious: what distinguished Ginault was not that they make homages/knockoffs whatever - *plenty of people do that* - it was the lying, deceit, and the bizarre and comical nature of the lying and deceit. (The guy used what, 4 fake names?! The in-house claims were unnecessary and didn't even pass the smell test - because you can make your own movement,_ in America_, but can't engrave your name on it! etc etc) Jumping on this forum recently (after being away for...a few hours) it seemed like the conversation had been diverted via the red herring of the homage issue. That's not the issue. This forum is overflowing with homages. Who cares about homages?

Anyways, I still don't know why people have such difficulty separating a product they love from the people and process behind it. It's possible that I love my new iPhone and hate Apple at the same time.

My forum name? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain



Avo said:


> I'm trying so hard not to refer to your username here ...
> 
> But since you asked: I brought up Silver in response to the claim of hwa that "Ginault stands out for claiming credit for a copy." Not so. Silver claims to have made a copy. I quoted hwa's claim verbatim and then on the next line made my comment on Silver. If you can't keep with that, well, I don't know what to tell you.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> I'm trying so hard not to refer to your username here ...
> 
> But since you asked: I brought up Silver in response to the claim of hwa that "Ginault stands out for claiming credit for a copy." Not so. Silver claims to have made a copy. I quoted hwa's claim verbatim and then on the next line made my comment on Silver. If you can't keep with that, well, I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> And: 9.45


I was not as clear as I intended. By "claims credit," i mean not simply copying the look, but taking design credit, akin to stolen valor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

pinkybrain said:


> 487 pages, and nearly a post a minute. No, I can't keep up (some of us are discretely working while posting, or is it the other way around?).
> 
> My point should be obvious: what distinguished Ginault was not that they make homages/knockoffs whatever - *plenty of people do that* - it was the lying, deceit, and the bizarre and comical nature of the lying and deceit. (The guy used what, 4 fake names?! The in-house claims were unnecessary and didn't even pass the smell test - because you can make your own movement,_ in America_, but can't engrave your name on it! etc etc) Jumping on this forum recently (after being away for...a few hours) it seemed like the conversation had been diverted via the red herring of the homage issue. That's not the issue. This forum is overflowing with homages. Who cares about homages?
> 
> ...


So...3?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> I was not as clear as I intended. By "claims credit," i mean not simply copying the look, but taking design credit, akin to stolen valor.


Arrrgh!!! This is completely absurd. In Ginault's original marketing material, they said very clearly that they were making an homage to the Rolex Submariner. They specifically declined credit for the design! They deliberately mixed design details from various iterations (the sword hands of the never-sold-to-the-public 5517, the 5-digit case, the 6-digit maxi dial) and threw in some details of their own ("gold sand" lume) that never appeared on any Rolex. And they put "Ginault" on the dial, for anyone who can read (which seems to exclude a number of the posters here). Most of Ginault's marketing material has now been deleted, apparently due to the pathetic bleating of critics who were terrified that the wealth-signaling function of their Rolex might now be a tad diminished.

You don't like the Ocean Rover, despite your review that stated that the quality is excellent. Fine. I don't care! But why you persist in coming here, some two years after you sold the watch, to throw out your misleading statements over and over and over again, is deeply mysterious.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Just curious about Mr. Deepdweller of Mr. SKMGN0 (on the TRF) and whether or not anyone else has noticed:

1. He pops up seemingly out of nowhere only when there is a major bombshell to report.
2. His posts are only in reference to his work and receiving the subsequent acclaims and applause from the members
3. When confronted with censorship or banning he goes quiet only to have a newly joined member rally on his behalf
4. Despite queries as to who/where he is, he states he prefers to maintain anonymity.
5. The McManus video pulled no punches stating the "facts" as being true. I did think for a moment that given the exposure of a UK-based Lithuanian footballer that maybe Deepdweller is based in the UK but DD does state on the TRF he doesn't live in the UK, so I guess he's telling the truth. So stating that DeepDweller IS J. McManus would be totally inappropriate. Still having JM as a supporter may not be the smartest PR move.
6. On the Lexic com page he asks the administrator if he can pay his subscription using crypto currency. This in and of itself is strange if not down right suspicious 
7. The information he has provided in both cases, the footballer and ginault both at face value appear valid, somewhat well thought out, and in places very damning. Dare I say, almost... too good. But like the guy who is offered a Rolex Hulk on eBay at list price, I am a skeptical. 
8. I think we're all aware that any of the evidence provided here, with the proper knowledge, could be manufactured and deposited in the net. I am not saying that any or all of it is, but I am aware of the possibility. 
9. Full disclosure, I do own an OR, but also a number of Rolex, Omega, Tudor, etc. I really don't have a dog in this fight.
10. To be fair, I think we need be skeptical of both sides... because no matter how thin you slice it there are always 2 sides,

AND just one more thing: Why hasn't DD gone to the authorities (he doesn't) answer that question, but spends his time joining other groups, promoting his cause, and the complaining incessantly that his report doesn't show up high enough in google searches?

Just my 2 cents and I see from the Steinhart on my wrist,,,,, time to go

Doug
PS:


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

The biggest queston mark is:

Do i order the OR2 with black or blue bezel insert ?


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

NO. Not 3.

Let's try 13: The man behind the many Ginault names, Tsung Chi, lied to everyone about everything (that doesn't necessarily equate to "evil" as you say). However, some people can't admit that because they like their Ginault watch and this creates cognitive dissonance. But you know what, you can admit that Tsi Chung is a compulsive liar AND still appreciate your Ginault watch.

If you have an issue with cognitive dissonance that's your problem. Stop defending this guy and believing in his fairy tales. Just enjoy your watch, accept the way of the world, and move along. Like I said, I can enjoy my iPhone and praise its functionality all while trusting Apple about as much as a Tsung Chi autobiography.



Belloc said:


> So...3?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> The biggest queston mark is:
> 
> Do i order the OR2 with black or blue bezel insert ?


And if you want the Swiss made *cough* Chinese made Sellita or in-house 7525 movement.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

DutchElite said:


> The biggest queston mark is:
> 
> Do i order the OR2 with black or blue bezel insert ?


Blue bezel and the Ginault movement.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Fair enough.

By the way, I'm not just a regular poster here but also a master of the masters watch maker. I made an amazing, one-off, in-house clone of a Seiko SKX. Every competent was hand crafted personally by me while doing a head stand in an organic coffee shop in Portland. Because I like you, I'll sell you this one-off, very special watch for only $1,299 (maybe less if you say something good about me on WUS). Please pm me and I'll send you my wire information.

PS: don't be alarmed if this watch is indistinguishable from a stock SKX. I'm that good.

PS PS: My real name is "Zhang Dong, from House Counterfeit, Maker of Watches While Standing Head, Lord of all WatchIdiotSavant - emphasis Idiot"

PS PS PS: If anyone accuses me of lying they're obviously not credible because I would never lie (obviously) because reasons.



DouglasI said:


> Just curious about Mr. Deepdweller of Mr. SKMGN0 (on the TRF) and whether or not anyone else has noticed:
> 
> 1. He pops up seemingly out of nowhere only when there is a major bombshell to report.
> 2. His posts are only in reference to his work and receiving the subsequent acclaims and applause from the members
> ...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Black bezel, ginault movement and probably flat crystal, to steer the looks towards a Sea Dweller look.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

pinkybrain said:


> NO. Not 3.
> 
> Let's try 13: The man behind the many Ginault names, Tsung Chi, lied to everyone about everything (that doesn't necessarily equate to "evil" as you say). However, some people can't admit that because they like their Ginault watch and this creates cognitive dissonance. But you know what, you can admit that Tsi Chung is a compulsive liar AND still appreciate your Ginault watch.
> 
> If you have an issue with cognitive dissonance that's your problem. Stop defending this guy and believing in his fairy tales. Just enjoy your watch, accept the way of the world, and move along. Like I said, I can enjoy my iPhone and praise its functionality all while trusting Apple about as much as a Tsung Chi autobiography.


Still sounds like that post was a 3:00 to me. Since I didn't defend anyone, I guess the "cognitive dissonance" charge makes this post an 11:00.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

pinkybrain said:


> lied to everyone about everything


My only interaction with anyone at Ginault was to ask a couple of questions about their watch (to which I received prompt, truthful replies), and to send them money in exchange for a watch. They then sent me the watch, which IMO is of extremely high quality for the price I paid (and even for significantly more than the price I paid). If mine were lost or stolen, I would pay MSRP (if no discounts were available) to get a new one.

If anyone at Ginault has harmed anyone else, then those people should pursue redress through the legal system.

People who have not been harmed by anyone at Ginault (which, as far as I can tell, includes everyone who has posted in this thread) have, IMO, nothing useful to say.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

pinkybrain said:


> FI made an amazing, one-off, in-house clone of a Seiko SKX. ... I'll sell you this one-off, very special watch for only $1,299


Um, OK Mr. pinkybrain, I just have to tell you this: selling an homage for way more than the cost of the original is not likely to be a successful business plan. But you go!!!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Almost time to go home


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> Arrrgh!!! This is completely absurd. In Ginault's original marketing material, they said very clearly that they were making an homage to the Rolex Submariner. They specifically declined credit for the design! They deliberately mixed design details from various iterations (the sword hands of the never-sold-to-the-public 5517, the 5-digit case, the 6-digit maxi dial) and threw in some details of their own ("gold sand" lume) that never appeared on any Rolex. And they put "Ginault" on the dial, for anyone who can read (which seems to exclude a number of the posters here). Most of Ginault's marketing material has now been deleted, apparently due to the pathetic bleating of critics who were terrified that the wealth-signaling function of their Rolex might now be a tad diminished.
> 
> You don't like the Ocean Rover, despite your review that stated that the quality is excellent. Fine. I don't care! But why you persist in coming here, some two years after you sold the watch, to throw out your misleading statements over and over and over again, is deeply mysterious.


Absurd? Really?

Gold Sand Lume!
Broached Bezel!
Ceramic Dial!
In-house Calibre!
Something Silly Applied Indices!
Made in USA!

Pardon my skepticism, but that's not anything like what Silver claimed.

Now, there may be some overlap with Weiss and Shinola and a million others, but the cheese stands alone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OnyxNight (Feb 2, 2019)

DouglasI said:


> Just curious about Mr. Deepdweller of Mr. SKMGN0 (on the TRF) and whether or not anyone else has noticed:
> 
> 1. He pops up seemingly out of nowhere only when there is a major bombshell to report.
> 2. His posts are only in reference to his work and receiving the subsequent acclaims and applause from the members
> ...


Even the cranky East German judge gives the mental gymnastics in this post a solid 8.5. Half of what you wrote isn't relevant at all and none of it casts any doubts on the original article. I'm left to wonder what exactly is your point? If it's to emphasize skepticism, I think most of us would agree - and since the evidence in the article is independently verifiable and hasn't been at all debunked, the reasonable conclusion even for a skeptic is cautious credulousness.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Absurd? Really?
> 
> Gold Sand Lume!
> Broached Bezel!
> ...


Okay, so where can you back up that Ginault in any way claimed credit for the look again...?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Has anyone gone out and looked at John Tsung Chi's FB yet?

He often posted pics of himself wearing a Rolex Sea-Dweller.....and made mention of being in Los Angeles on June 7, 2013. 

There are zero John McMurtry or Charles Ginault (or even Thomas Caddell for that matter) FB pages that would have a anything to do with Ginault or watches in general. Just an observation. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

The story.......


























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ah, and still you guys keep posting things, like we care. Do I need to remind you this is the Ginault’s fan club thread? It's not just that I'm one, but most of the people that post here are too. You will just bore yourselves to death, make yourselves look like fools, and bore us a bit too in the meantime.

I mean, by now it should be 100% clear that most of us don't care whether Ginault is TC, Spectra, Cobra, El Cartel de Cali or the Evil Empire. We just love a well made watch, as close as the 5-digit Rolex Submariner as possible. Really, nothing more complicated than that. Get over it.


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## pinkybrain (Oct 26, 2011)

Ignore entire post, try to find one thing inconsistent. Got it. Did you even read the write up about Ginault, by the way? I didn't say he harmed anyone. He did lie. He lied on his web page, he lied to reviewers, he lied about his name, he lied on business fillings. I didn't say "harm". I said compulsive liar.



Avo said:


> Um, OK Mr. pinkybrain, I just have to tell you this: selling an homage for way more than the cost of the original is not likely to be a successful business plan. But you go!!!


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

watchesaresocool said:


> Okay, so where can you back up that Ginault in any way claimed credit for the look again...?


4873
4890

Talking to you, though, is like explaining those 3D posters to the mouthbreathers who cant see it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

OnyxNight said:


> Even the cranky East German judge gives the mental gymnastics in this post a solid 8.5. Half of what you wrote isn't relevant at all and none of it casts any doubts on the original article. I'm left to wonder what exactly is your point? If it's to emphasize skepticism, I think most of us would agree - and since the evidence in the article is independently verifiable and hasn't been at all debunked, the reasonable conclusion even for a skeptic is cautious credulousness.


I understand what you are saying and all I wonder from a "reporting" basis is: Independently Verifiable? Where's the second source besides DeepDweller? Has anyone else done the forensics on ALL the facts? Has anyone confirmed the validity of all the files referenced? Before getting clear answers to both sides of the question I'm just suggesting mob pauses for a beat or two, considers that the issue of transparency is also lacking on the side of the prosecution. Or are we all just followers?
Doug


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

DouglasI said:


> I understand what you are saying and all I wonder from a "reporting" basis is: Independently Verifiable? Where's the second source besides DeepDweller? Has anyone else done the forensics on ALL the facts? Has anyone confirmed the validity of all the files referenced? Before getting clear answers to both sides of the question I'm just suggesting mob pauses for a beat or two, considers that the issue of transparency is also lacking on the side of the prosecution. Or are we all just followers?
> Doug


Never stand up in the middle of a food fight, Doug.


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## Belloc (May 6, 2014)

DouglasI said:


> I understand what you are saying and all I wonder from a "reporting" basis is: Independently Verifiable? Where's the second source besides DeepDweller? Has anyone else done the forensics on ALL the facts? Has anyone confirmed the validity of all the files referenced? Before getting clear answers to both sides of the question I'm just suggesting mob pauses for a beat or two, considers that the issue of transparency is also lacking on the side of the prosecution. Or are we all just followers?
> Doug


Never stand up in the middle of a food fight, Doug.

Hm, never had a double post before. How does that happen? Anyway, sorry...


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Still just here for the watches










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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

pinkybrain said:


> Ignore entire post, try to find one thing inconsistent. Got it. Did you even read the write up about Ginault, by the way? I didn't say he harmed anyone. He did lie. He lied on his web page, he lied to reviewers, he lied about his name, he lied on business fillings. I didn't say "harm". I said compulsive liar.


^ THIS ^

Once you lie, you can't 'un-lie'. That ship sailed the moment he (Tsung Chi et al) destroyed his credibility.

No one is claiming he makes a bad product. Hell, I'll confirm they're damn good watches. I owned two. Again, that's not the problem.

It's that he's dishonest and not reputable no matter WHAT he does or says. He can't undo what he's crafted - and crafted intentionally, mind you.

To me, it's dirty money.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> The story.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that this newest controversy is actually being directed by Ginault or am I missing something?


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> ^ THIS ^
> 
> Once you lie, you can't 'un-lie'. That ship sailed the moment he (Tsung Chi et al) destroyed his credibility.
> 
> ...


LOL


----------



## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Belloc said:


> Never stand up in the middle of a food fight, Doug.
> 
> Hm, never had a double post before. How does that happen? Anyway, sorry...


Depends on the food and whether or not I brought my baseball glove to catch the good stuff and hockey stick to deflect the rest....! Double post means double free food!!!!


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> 4873
> 4890
> 
> Talking to you, though, is like explaining those 3D posters to the mouthbreathers who cant see it.
> ...


So you won't answer my question but go straight for insults. That's the sign of a person with a weak argument who bends reality to fit his willed perception.


----------



## Heinekin_Skywalker (Oct 12, 2016)

The two movements side by side and all the detail are hard to explain alone.

I sold my ginault a while ago, and i miss it. It really was a hell of a watch but i was going down to one and figured service support on my steinhart OT500 would be more reliable in the long run. Also the lumed bezel and display case back were features i still enjoy.

This doesnt make me regret my ginault and if i still had it i dont think id be getting rid of it.

However I dont see myself buying another, especially new from the company any time soon. Maybe one day, maybe not.

If i got a good deal on one used i think id like one again cause the story behind it is something im finding quite interesting. This has been a wild ride and the watch now represents a good story that i can afford. A good story in the drunk around a bonfire context, quite entertaining


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## OnyxNight (Feb 2, 2019)

DouglasI said:


> I understand what you are saying and all I wonder from a "reporting" basis is: Independently Verifiable? Where's the second source besides DeepDweller? Has anyone else done the forensics on ALL the facts? Has anyone confirmed the validity of all the files referenced? Before getting clear answers to both sides of the question I'm just suggesting mob pauses for a beat or two, considers that the issue of transparency is also lacking on the side of the prosecution. Or are we all just followers?
> Doug


Well yeah, lots of people have independently verified things like the camera EXIF data and have posted about it on other forums such as Reddit and other watch sites. I myself checked out some of the details, and I encourage you to do so as well. The evidence of illicit practices and possible fraud is overwhelming to the point where worrying about the identity of the exposé's author becomes a red herring. Focusing on it misses the forest for the trees.

It's also looking like the article is mistaken in its implication that docvail was at all associated with TC. That seems to be the only substantial inaccuracy in the piece so far, and of course it does not exonerate TC or cast doubts on any of the many other points the article details, particularly the many independently verifiable ones. That seems to me a reasonable conclusion at this point in time.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

OnyxNight said:


> Well yeah, lots of people have independently verified things like the camera EXIF data and have posted about it on other forums such as Reddit and other watch sites. I myself checked out some of the details, and I encourage you to do so as well. The evidence of illicit practices and possible fraud is overwhelming to the point where worrying about the identity of the exposé's author becomes a red herring. Focusing on it misses the forest for the trees.
> 
> It's also looking like the article is mistaken in its implication that docvail was at all associated with TC. That seems to be the only substantial inaccuracy in the piece so far, and of course it does not exonerate TC or cast doubts on any of the many other points the article details, particularly the many independently verifiable ones. That seems to me a reasonable conclusion at this point in time.


There is no proof that the WY docs are in anyway associated with TC/Ginault whatever. This is the only issue that has me concerned.


----------



## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

OnyxNight said:


> Well yeah, lots of people have independently verified things like the camera EXIF data and have posted about it on other forums such as Reddit and other watch sites. I myself checked out some of the details, and I encourage you to do so as well. The evidence of illicit practices and possible fraud is overwhelming to the point where worrying about the identity of the exposé's author becomes a red herring. Focusing on it misses the forest for the trees.
> 
> It's also looking like the article is mistaken in its implication that docvail was at all associated with TC. That seems to be the only substantial inaccuracy in the piece so far, and of course it does not exonerate TC or cast doubts on any of the many other points the article details, particularly the many independently verifiable ones. That seems to me a reasonable conclusion at this point in time.


Good point about the EXIF data, and I too have checked it. And how hard would it be to have that data altered in the file already in place? Just because data is in an archive or user forum does not mean it can't be changed surreptitiously without leaving any obvious clues. In fact, scaringly easy to do I am told. However, there are other methods for detecting tampering that go beyond the obvious matters mentioned above. Am I reaching? Quite possibly. On the other, why has Mr. DD not gone to the authorities on this matter, or surely the matter involving the footballer and sale for counterfeit watches? Is there a potential for blowback? Why hasn't he gone to the authorities on this? What is the point in jumping from forum to forum, exposing his good work, and then only to sit and complain his report doesn't come up on the first page in Google.

Bottom line, the information presented by DD to all of us, is verifiable. Don't think he would have posted it otherwise. I wouldn't. However, until the veracity of what is presented is proven, which at this stage looks likely, but from a strict technical standpoint is circumstantial at best I'll remain skeptical.

Yes, the *issue of anonymity is damned important. And that can be easily addressed by Mr. DD getting off his backside and reporting this to authorities.* If he was true to the cause he would and let professionals run with it. Will he? Doubtful. Either he has something to hide or more likely he has found an exploitable wedge in the community and is more than delighted to sow derision and get accolades from the various forums he is subscribing to. Regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, this guy loves the attention. And that's what we're giving him.

At a meta level, this same process has happened on TRF, with a slightly different outcome. Case is stated initially, some admiration given, some questions asked, more information promised, more interest, more kudos, an other info dump, more kudo's, interest wanes, some more information comes out, more discussion, interest wanes, an attempt to stir things up, and FINALLY a major thank you and that we all have got it and the thread gets closed. At that point he either disappears to another site or comes up with a new expose. So given where things are at maybe a lesson from TRF should be learned.

Finally, my apologies for being sexist and ASSUMING DD is a male. DD very well could be a female too.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

DouglasI said:


> Good point about the EXIF data, and I too have checked it. And how hard would it be to have that data altered in the file already in place? Just because data is in an archive or user forum does not mean it can't be changed surreptitiously without leaving any obvious clues. In fact, scaringly easy to do I am told. However, there are other methods for detecting tampering that go beyond the obvious matters mentioned above. Am I reaching? Quite possibly. On the other, why has Mr. DD not gone to the authorities on this matter, or surely the matter involving the footballer and sale for counterfeit watches? Is there a potential for blowback? Why hasn't he gone to the authorities on this? What is the point in jumping from forum to forum, exposing his good work, and then only to sit and complain his report doesn't come up on the first page in Google.
> 
> Bottom line, the information presented by DD to all of us, is verifiable. Don't think he would have posted it otherwise. I wouldn't. However, until the veracity of what is presented is proven, which at this stage looks likely, but from a strict technical standpoint is circumstantial at best I'll remain skeptical.
> 
> ...


Why would DD go to SUCH great lengths to produce such a document? Remaining anonymous on his part makes sense until this is fully proven. Why also must HE be the one to go to the authorities? Do you? Does anyone? If I see someone speeding, I don't do the cops job.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OnyxNight (Feb 2, 2019)

DouglasI said:


> Good point about the EXIF data, and I too have checked it. And how hard would it be to have that data altered in the file already in place? Just because data is in an archive or user forum does not mean it can't be changed surreptitiously without leaving any obvious clues. In fact, scaringly easy to do I am told. However, there are other methods for detecting tampering that go beyond the obvious matters mentioned above. Am I reaching? Quite possibly.


On this and the other points we'll agree to disagree, because for me this moves beyond skepticism into full-blown conspiracy theory territory. One can invent a hundred not-very-plausible scenarios, all absent any proof, and continually ask "but what if the explanation is this other unsupported thing?" But then we're writing fiction, which is fun, but not really what I'm here for.


----------



## nello (Jan 2, 2014)

hwa said:


> 4873
> 4890
> 
> Talking to you, though, is like explaining those 3D posters to the mouthbreathers who cant see it.
> ...


Mouthbreathers. I love it.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

watchesaresocool said:


> So you won't answer my question but go straight for insults. That's the sign of a person with a weak argument who bends reality to fit his willed perception.


Truth be told, I didn't go straight for insults. I answered the question multiple times-I've lost count-and on this occasion cited two recent posts, in which Ginault defenders acknowledge the 1:1, before expressing exasperation over trying to explain to you that I see you hiding behind the skinny tree, even if your eyes are blocked.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Truth be told, I didn't go straight for insults. I answered the question multiple times-I've lost count-and on this occasion cited two recent posts, in which Ginault defenders acknowledge the 1:1, before expressing exasperation over trying to explain to you that I see you hiding behind the skinny tree, even if your eyes are blocked.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, you didn't. I saw you _try_ to explain your rationale, but you never did. You did try multiple times though, but you have yet to quote anything stated by Ginault that showed them claiming credit for the look. Your bias is unreal.


----------



## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

watchesaresocool said:


> No, you didn't. I saw you _try_ to explain your rationale, but you never did. You did try multiple times though, but you have yet to quote anything stated by Ginault that showed them claiming credit for the look. Your bias is unreal.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

25 years ago a Classic Casio DW5000 was $40. Now is ten times as much. Just take a look at the Casio JDM line yep many models go above $1000 today.
How about a new bracelet for Rolex is $2000 and people happily pay for it. 
We talking $1000 watch that is of great quality. Big deal $1000 is nothing these days for an auto.
For $1000 or so we get a very high quality product, there is no dispute in that.
If people don’t complain about how crappy the quality is of a product then people find something else to complain, does not matter what it is to complain about, as long as they do it.
Take a look at Amazon half the complains are that package was damaged and they ding the product. The product itself has no fault. 
But that is what people do they complain cause is virtual and is easily done.
I say lets start posting some pics of the watch while waiting for the ORII.
Btw my coworker has the ORI for about a year or so and is very nice and classy, keeps great time and is very high quality.
Cheers


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Good morning!


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> 25 years ago a Classic Casio DW5000 was $40. Now is ten times as much. Just take a look at the Casio JDM line yep many models go above $1000 today.
> How about a new bracelet for Rolex is $2000 and people happily pay for it.
> We talking $1000 watch that is of great quality. Big deal $1000 is nothing these days for an auto.
> For $1000 or so we get a very high quality product, there is no dispute in that.
> ...


The point being made by people who hate this brand isn't so much about the quality or cost. It's about the owner who is a complete waste and the lies behind the brand. Your missing the point


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

City74 said:


> The point being made by people who hate this brand isn't so much about the quality or cost. It's about the owner who is a complete waste and the lies behind the brand. Your missing the point


If we all agree on that, will you guys stop the thread capping? I'm happy to do that for you...


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> If we all agree on that, will you guys stop the thread capping? I'm happy to do that for you...


I agree that the owner is most likely a complete waste and lies behind (about) the brand.

Yet, I still do not give a rat's tuchis either way, will continue to enjoy my OR and may yet pick up an ORII or a GMT, if the latter ever gets released.


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

tuchis I had to google....got it...Gruezi, by the way...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> If we all agree on that, will you guys stop the thread capping? I'm happy to do that for you...


"_f the First Amendment means anything, it means that the best response to disfavored speech on matters of public concern is more speech, not less."

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk_


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

hwa said:


> "_f the First Amendment means anything, it means that the best response to disfavored speech on matters of public concern is more speech, not less."
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk_


_We dont all live in America

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk_


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

"_f the First Amendment means anything, it means that the best response to disfavored speech on matters of public concern is more speech, not less."

Being a native European I go with that...wife from down under agrees..._


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> We dont all live in America
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I'm clear on that. Are you really going to argue the point, though?

Good ideas know no political boundaries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 3502dav (Feb 9, 2019)

Wow. Definitely some good reading here. I purchased my Ginault over a year ago and did my best to sort through the controversy. Since then I can not get over how much it has taken off. I see valid points on both sides and everyone has the right to make their own choices.

Anyway, below is a link to a recent YouTube link reference the debate. Hopefully this is allowed here on the forum and has not been posted earlier. Sums it up a bit quicker than scrolling through 4K of posts.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Aww man has anyone read DD's recent update? it's almost petty now This is definitely a personal beef. 



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

"Morning Rover"










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Aww man has anyone read DD's recent update? it's almost petty now This is definitely a personal beef.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Any links..?


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## nolte (Jun 28, 2016)

GMArthur said:


> "Morning Rover"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that Hav strap brand spanking new? All of mine fray out quite a bit in super short order.


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## Maithree (Jan 17, 2013)

LowIQ said:


> Any links..?


Just more proof of the TC-Ginault connection.

That replicas and homages were sold at the same time, with shady dealings. And really really shady ppl operating in that replica industry.

Interestingly they seem to rather a contract from an OEM manufacturer to producing replicas. Just that they have no moral leaning, direction or ethics that would stop them from producing replicas if they can't get an OEM contract.

People who have visited China on tours are taken to vendors of fake goods. Not just watches, but all kinds of products. Bags, shoes, camera, phones etc. And this is on a organised tour. With very aggressive shop keepers mind you too. So, there's sadly, a rather large market for it.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

This is so off-putting - the whole emulation/copy/fake/replication game. It’s made a cliche out of an iconic watch in this case. 

It’s hard to avoid an obvious fact: Whatever the individual’s name behind Ginault, he doesn’t think enough of his own skills to develop and market his own design or vision, yet shills his copy as though it were.
Somewhat astoundingly, Ginault buyers think more of the copy than he thinks of his own “work.”

A device is just that. The work that goes into developing the design, engineering, and ultimately offering it to those who revere the effort and are willing to trade some of their own for it - is the value. That’s what lasts. If one accepts that, the fakes, mimics, are the most expensive things upon which one can throw away $money. The buyer’s own efforts become devalued.

Poof.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

City74 said:


> The point being made by people who hate this brand isn't so much about the quality or cost. It's about the owner who is a complete waste and the lies behind the brand. Your missing the point


I buy a product for its quality, I do not care about fairy tales on its makers, the Ginault OR is the best "legit" submariner homage on the market, grab one while you can.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

WastedYears said:


> I agree that the owner is most likely a complete waste and lies behind (about) the brand.
> 
> Yet, I still do not give a rat's tuchis either way, will continue to enjoy my OR and may yet pick up an ORII or a GMT, if the latter ever gets released.


So where do you draw the line? You state that you'd definitely buy from a known liar. Would you buy from a known thief?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

kelt said:


> I buy a product for its quality, I do not care about fairy tales on its makers.


Do you not believe that Earth is round? Until 20th century, we had no direct evidence that Earth was round but believed that Earth was round from circumstantial evidences. But then again, we have idiots who believe that Earth being round is a fairy tale even now.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

RNHC said:


> So where do you draw the line? You state that you'd definitely buy from a known liar. Would you buy from a known thief?


Depends on what he's selling, what he stole and from whom.

If the guy running my local AD, who happens to illegally download movies off the internet, finally offers me that white Daytona I've been waiting three years for, then yes, I most definitely will buy from a known thief.

So, now that we've established that those who want to discuss the watch in this thread don't care about the rest of the noise, I suggest you take it to a Steinhart or Squale thread and start hammering on watch brands that really, obviously copy modern and currently available Rolex watches.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

WastedYears said:


> Depends on what he's selling, what he stole and from whom.


Ah, moral relativism. So your line is always moving. Looking out for number one, I see.



WastedYears said:


> So, now that we've established that those who want to discuss the watch in this thread don't care about the rest of the noise, I suggest you take it to a Steinhart or Squale thread and start hammering on watch brands that really, obviously copy modern and currently available Rolex watches.


I thought we'd established that we are discussing the watchmaker and not the watch. Have the owners of Steinhart or Squale engaged in deceit and falsehoods? Keep up, would you?


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

kelt said:


> I buy a product for its quality, I do not care about fairy tales on its makers, the Ginault OR is the best "legit" submariner homage on the market, grab one while you can.


What's the urgency: Legal troubles? Availability of support, parts? The very existence of this "upstanding" business entity? You make a good argument against doing what you suggest, here.

No disrespect intended but instead of grabbing one of these things, perhaps one should grab their own ass and wallet at the same time... Hold on to your Francs and trade your work for something that will mean more to you over time.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

[email protected]_180 said:


> What's the urgency: Legal troubles? Availability of support, parts? The very existence of this "upstanding" business entity? You make a good argument against doing what you suggest, here.
> 
> No disrespect intended but instead of grabbing one of these things, perhaps one should grab their own ass and wallet at the same time... Hold on to your Francs and trade your work for something that will mean more to you over time.


I think his point was, grab one while Ginault is still operating as it is not hard to envision a scenario in which they end up going away entirely. Regarding parts, as has been made clear the movement is easily swapped out for another ETA 2824 and you can always replace the hands but the case and bracelet are quite high quality and should last for decades... just like a real Submariner.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

RNHC said:


> Ah, moral relativism. So your line is always moving. Looking out for number one, I see.


You call it moral relativism, I call it not seeing the world in black and white.



RNHC said:


> I thought we'd established that we are discussing the watchmaker and not the watch. Have the owners of Steinhart or Squale engaged in deceit and falsehoods? Keep up, would you?


Sorry, since you said 'thief' I thought we were discussing thievery. Only thievery I see being committed here is possibly that of intellectual property. Ergo, take it to the Steinhart/Squale thread.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

kelt said:


> I buy a product for its quality, I do not care about fairy tales on its makers, the Ginault OR is the best "legit" submariner homage on the market, grab one while you can.


Legit? Seriously you even used the word legit? Wow you really do have the wool pulled over your eyes. That's one of the last words I'd use in regards to this brand or owner. Right behind "honest".

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nolte (Jun 28, 2016)

Is it 'ok' to like or own one of these watches now?

I feel like that is, in a nutshell, what the last fifty pages of this thread are about. I believe the answer to that is subjective, and I would not suspect that any of you will ultimately be correct or incorrect with regards to the points you make. I would also not suspect that any of you will be successful in changing someone else's mind, but I'll raise a glass to your right to try, (forum rules withstanding) and sip and read and ponder.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

WastedYears said:


> You call it moral relativism, I call it not seeing the world in black and white.


Yes, that's what moral relativism is. Now the question is are you morally flexible when it's only to your benefit or would you hold that stance when something harmful is done to you?



WastedYears said:


> Only thievery I see being committed here is possibly that of intellectual property.


You don't see the deceit and falsehoods? Only theft?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

jarlaxle said:


> ...the case and bracelet are... just like a real Submariner.


Don't know about the bracelet but the case is not "just like" but identical in shape to a real Submariner to the point where parts were interchangeable as someone showed earlier in this thread, IIRC.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

RNHC said:


> the case is not "just like" but identical in shape to a real Submariner to the point where parts were interchangeable as someone showed earlier in this thread, IIRC.


That's good engineering.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Happy Hump Day


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> I think his point was, grab one while Ginault is still operating as it is not hard to envision a scenario in which they end up going away entirely. Regarding parts, as has been made clear the movement is easily swapped out for another ETA 2824 and you can always replace the hands but the case and bracelet are quite high quality and should last for decades... just like a real Submariner.


I take the point, thank you, but the larger issue is a bit different, IMO. Clearly, the wisdom attached to any investment is subjective, individual.

However:

Looking just at the value proposition in parts - it just doesn't add up. Today's buyer of a new Ginault could very well be purchasing a case and bracelet that would require all other parts and pieces to come from other manufacturers in order to be functional, plus assembly time and adjustment on the bench. Even after that - "support" is only available by virtue of the watchmaker's hourly rate.

Witness: Look at the street prices on brand new, factory-fresh Glycine's. There are very few valid comparisons between Glycine and Ginault, but the obvious investment risk is aptly demonstrated even when just looking at the physical parts and functionality, branding and "homage," aside.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

RNHC said:


> Yes, that's what moral relativism is. Now the question is are you morally flexible when it's only to your benefit or would you hold that stance when something harmful is done to you?


What? The only thing that I understood from this is that you see the world in black and white.



RNHC said:


> You don't see the deceit and falsehoods? Only theft?


Dude, you brought up thief, I addressed that. Just stop it already.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

WastedYears said:


> What? The only thing that I understood from this is that you see the world in black and white.


So you group people into two groups: people who see in black and white and people who don't? That seems a bit black and white. :-d


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> That's good engineering.


No, good copying. Good engineering is something else.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Plenty of examples of good copying, good engineering IS different. The Ginault has that in spades


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

The fact that so many people care about what are on other persons wrists to the fact that they'd camp out a thread on the internet to bicker only makes me want to wear mine more. It's developing more heritage than any original watch. I love it!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

kelt said:


> I buy a product for its quality, I do not care about fairy tales on its makers, the Ginault OR is the best "legit" submariner homage on the market, grab one while you can.


Except it's not 'legit', whether you put quotes around it or not. It's a rip off and that's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Plenty of examples of good copying, good engineering IS different. The Ginault has that in spades


How so? Please do tell. Movement is a copy. Case and bracelet are copies. Where is the engineering?


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

watchesaresocool said:


> The fact that so many people care about what are on other persons wrists to the fact that they'd camp out a thread on the internet to bicker only makes me want to wear mine more. It's developing more heritage than any original watch. I love it!


You are such a rebel. Yee haw! :-d


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> There is no proof that the WY docs are in anyway associated with TC/Ginault whatever. This is the only issue that has me concerned.


I agree. The WY doc was filed in 2018, long after TC was _already_ using "International Precision" as a fictitious business name for his replica business. One presumes that IP was registered/incorporated _somewhere_ (apparently independent of the genuine, founded-in-1965, International Precision) far earlier than that in order to establish that business account at CitiBank. Plus the use of forum aliases rather than actual names almost makes it seem like the doc was filed as a prank.

Also the addresses used in the WY doc are:

- the address for the mailbox service used by Ginault/TC, but excluding the actual Box Number.
- an obsolete, not current, address for Chris "Doc" Vail.
- the correct address for the genuine International Precision.

All three addresses are public information - Ginault's Mission Blvd. address by searching for "Ginault trademark"; Mr. Vail's presumably (I didn't check) via Yellow Pages or some other nationwide directory; IP's by searching for the company name. So the info in the WY doc isn't anything that only Tsung Chi or anyone connected with TC/Ginault could have.

The key to the WY document would be to contact the Registration Agent and see who paid them to act in that capacity for the fake International Precision in Wyoming. And we need to find out how the original fake International Precision used to open the CitiBank account that replica buyers used to pay TC was formed and registered.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Except it's not 'legit', whether you put quotes around it or not. It's a rip off and that's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.


You're just too funny. Who doesn't need a good laugh on Wed


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

RNHC said:


> You are such a rebel. Yee haw! :-d


Yep. Thanks for adding to the story and lineage.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

RNHC said:


> So where do you draw the line? You state that you'd definitely buy from a known liar. Would you buy from a known thief?


Technically, Ginault is exactly that. They stole the Glidelock design, and much much more. There's no parsing it, but it seems to be precisely this analogy you presented. Purchasing from a thief.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> Depends on what he's selling, what he stole and from whom.
> 
> If the guy running my local AD, who happens to illegally download movies off the internet, finally offers me that white Daytona I've been waiting three years for, then yes, I most definitely will buy from a known thief.
> 
> So, now that we've established that those who want to discuss the watch in this thread don't care about the rest of the noise, I suggest you take it to a Steinhart or Squale thread and start hammering on watch brands that really, obviously copy modern and currently available Rolex watches.


Except you aren't buying the movies. You're buying the stolen product via parts used.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Plenty of examples of good copying, good engineering IS different. The Ginault has that in spades


So you're completely ok stealing Intellectual property. Sounds like you approve of wrongdoing when it benefits you.

I'm hoping you aren't approving of said wrongdoing, and teaching others that thievery is ok if it benefits you personally. *Do as I say, not as I do*.

Let's turn it around. Say you spent countless hours and dollars on a product and some yahoo steals your design and profits from it.

Are you ok with that? Based upon the volumes of words you've entered into this forum, that answer is an overwhelming yes.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> The fact that so many people care about what are on other persons wrists to the fact that they'd camp out a thread on the internet to bicker only makes me want to wear mine more. It's developing more heritage than any original watch. I love it!


Heritage? You mean notoriety. Rolex has heritage. Ginault is notorious.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> You're just too funny. Who doesn't need a good laugh on Wed












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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> Except it's not 'legit', whether you put quotes around it or not. It's a rip off and that's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ripped off design?

So is every other homage.

Ripped off because people were sold a bill of goods about the build quality of the watch and/or movement?

Vast number of reviews would suggest its the exact opposite, that the watch punches above its weight. As for the movement, I have still yet to see any proof that it isn't exactly as Ginault has themselves described and many owners and reviewers have documented that it performs fairly well.

Ripped off because the guy behind it has mislead his customers about who he is and what his background is?

If that's an important issue to you then yes, you could argue you were ripped off.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

[email protected]_180 said:


> It's hard to avoid an obvious fact: Whatever the individual's name behind Ginault, he doesn't think enough of his own skills to develop and market his own design or vision, yet shills his copy as though it were.
> Somewhat astoundingly, Ginault buyers think more of the copy than he thinks of his own "work."


In general intellectual property laws don't cover fashion, including watches. If it did, we would have only Lacoste polo shirts, Burberry trench coats, Brooks Brothers button-down collar shirts, Members Only racer jackets (hmmm... it would've probably been a good idea to limit that last one as much as possible). Logos are a different matter - you can't put an alligator on your knockoff polo shirt.

So Ginault can be faulted for its origins in the fake world and other offenses alleged in DeepDweller's expose, but it's within its limits to market a pastiche of Submariners past and present.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

+1 s/d accuracy. Superb F&F. Love it


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)




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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> +1 s/d accuracy. Superb F&F. Love it


Awesome. Thats more accurate than most Seikos.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Except it's not 'legit', whether you put quotes around it or not. It's a rip off and that's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt.


Is a Ralph Lauren polo shirt a ripoff of the original Rene Lacoste polo?
Is an Aquascutum trench coat a ripoff of the Burberry?
Are all non-Brooks Brothers button-down shirts ripoffs?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> In general intellectual property laws don't cover fashion, including watches. If it did, we would have only Lacoste polo shirts, Burberry trench coats, Brooks Brothers button-down collar shirts, Members Only racer jackets (hmmm... it would've probably been a good idea to limit that last one as much as possible). Logos are a different matter - you can't put an alligator on your knockoff polo shirt.
> 
> So Ginault can be faulted for its origins in the fake world and other offenses alleged in DeepDweller's expose, but it's within its limits to market a pastiche of Submariners past and present.


If this is true, then why does Rolex go after counterfeiters? Why would any watchmaker?

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> Is a Ralph Lauren polo shirt a ripoff of the original Rene Lacoste polo?
> Is an Aquascutum trench coat a ripoff of the Burberry?
> Are all non-Brooks Brothers button-down shirts ripoffs?


You're conflating things. Stop.

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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> So you're completely ok stealing Intellectual property. Sounds like you approve of wrongdoing when it benefits you.
> 
> I'm hoping you aren't approving of said wrongdoing, and teaching others that thievery is ok if it benefits you personally. *Do as I say, not as I do*.
> 
> Let's turn it around. Say you spent countless hours and dollars on a product and some yahoo steals your design and profits from it.


In general IP law doesn't apply to fashion. If I put a Ralph Lauren polo shirt next to a Lacoste and cover up the logos, can you identify which shirt was made by which company?


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> If this is true, then why does Rolex go after counterfeiters? Why would any watchmaker?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You hit Reply before finishing my first paragraph. Rolex went after Jensen Dinh ("Vintage Watch Maker") because VWM was putting Rolex's trademarked company name and coronet on their products. There are plenty of sources for sterile aftermarket genuine-Rolex-spec parts that Rolex cannot and does not pursue.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> If this is true, then why does Rolex go after counterfeiters? Why would any watchmaker?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You hit Reply before finishing my first paragraph. Rolex went after Jensen Dinh ("Vintage Watch Maker") because VWM was putting Rolex's *trademarked company name and coronet* on their products. There are plenty of sources for sterile aftermarket genuine-Rolex-spec parts that Rolex cannot and does not pursue.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> View attachment 14298103


Wonder if that lume is Swiss via Hong Kong?

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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

cheld said:


> In general IP law doesn't apply to fashion. If I put a Ralph Lauren polo shirt next to a Lacoste and cover up the logos, can you identify which shirt was made by which company?


I'd know I wouldn't wear either as they both aren't well made products

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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> You're conflating things.


How so? You have assailed Ginault for co-opting Rolex "design". The three items of clothing I mentioned are unique and original designs that have been endlessly copied by other extremely high-profile companies without legal repercussion.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> If this is true, then why does Rolex go after counterfeiters? Why would any watchmaker?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The line between copying a design and counterfeiting is simple, the logo used. Rolex appears to pursue sellers of non-Rolex watches and/or parts that attempt to sell them as authentic Rolex watches/parts.

Rolex does not appear to pursue those that have simply copied their designs.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> How so? You have assailed Ginault for co-opting Rolex "design". The three items of clothing I mentioned are unique and original designs that have been endlessly copied by other extremely high-profile companies without legal repercussion.


Is there an existing patent on the Glidelock used on the Ginault Ocean Rover that is owned by another entity other than Ginault?

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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> Is there an existing patent on the Glidelock used on the Ginault Ocean Rover that is owned by another entity other than Ginault?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ginault is not the only one using the glidelock.... as you well know.


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bc2xCqejuiW/


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> In general IP law doesn't apply to fashion. If I put a Ralph Lauren polo shirt next to a Lacoste and cover up the logos, can you identify which shirt was made by which company?


You avoided my question. Why?

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> Ginault not the only one using the glidelock.... as you well know.
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Bc2xCqejuiW/


It isn't the same design - I know. I owned several of both. The Ginault is a direct copy. The Tisell was not.

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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

cheld said:


> In general IP law doesn't apply to fashion. If I put a Ralph Lauren polo shirt next to a Lacoste and cover up the logos, can you identify which shirt was made by which company?


Probably not since clothing items are typically made on same production line in a humongous factory by an OEM who puts on the logos at the end of the production line.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Is there an existing patent on the Glidelock used on the Ginault Ocean Rover that is owned by another entity other than Ginault?


Shouldn't the fella who's bought two Ginaults be able to answer that question?

Anyway, thanks for admitting that your entire "design" argument against Ginault can only be justified by referring to the adjustment mechanism on the clasp, and not to the case, crystal, dial, hands, bezel, insert, crown, or lume.

BTW I'm in agreement with you that the authorities need to look into Tsung Chi's finances for possible felonies including money laundering (using proceeds from TC sales to fund Ginault operations) and identity theft (the Wyoming document). But there's a tiny baby in there with all that bathwater.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Is there an existing patent on the Glidelock used on the Ginault Ocean Rover that is owned by another entity other than Ginault?


Shouldn't the fella who's bought two Ginaults be able to answer that question? :think:

Anyway, thanks for admitting that your entire "design" argument against Ginault can only be justified by referring to the adjustment mechanism on the clasp, and not to the case, crystal, dial, hands, bezel, insert, crown, or lume.

BTW I'm in agreement with you that the authorities need to look into Tsung Chi's finances for possible felonies including money laundering (using proceeds from TC sales to fund Ginault operations) and identity theft (the Wyoming document). But there's a tiny baby in there with all that bathwater.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

City74 said:


> Wonder if that lume is Swiss via Hong Kong?


Don't you remember? Ginault gets its lume from the ends of the Earth. They had a picture of outdoorsy guy to prove it.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Looks pretty Rolexey to me. The poor engineering is the dead giveaway. Horrible execution


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> It isn't the same design - I know. I owned several of both. The Ginault is a direct copy. The Tisell was not.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok, so where is the line between what Tisell did and what Ginault did? The quality of execution? The quality of raw materials? Are you saying Tisell is okay because its just 95% of a copy? What's the magic cutoff?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

City74 said:


> Ya know I was thinking. This whole thread could be avoided if the peasants worked a little harder and bought a real watch in the first place. Then con artists like this brands owner and brands like this would cease to exist and make many many people happy
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I could not agree more. Add to this an SRP777 and an SKX175.










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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Has anyone considered that the blog and all these ties to tc or whatever you want are fictional? Made up in the same way cmsgtbo and docvail were written into the story. I'm not stating I believe that. But everyone is quick to assail guilt to Ginault from an anonymous blogger. And let's say he did make fakes and now went legit. Do we not forgive criminals who have been rehabilitated, or drug and alcohol abusers who have recovered. Even if he did all this and he's doing it right now doesn't that mean he's changed or at least doing things legit? 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Looks pretty Rolexey to me. The poor engineering is the dead giveaway. Horrible execution


Ah the Tisell. I had several.

The case on the Tisell did not match proportions at all, the bezel height and design is different, the end links are different, the clasp is different, the lugs aren't proportioned correctly, and on and on. Looks good from afar, but far from good. Nice little homage watch that never skirted the line of illegality.

Not one Rolex part is interchangeable with a Tisell that I am aware of.

But the Ginault? It's been established that most gen parts will fit.

Perfectly.

So there is that.....

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Has anyone considered that the blog and all these ties to tc or whatever you want are fictional? Made up in the same way cmsgtbo and docvail were written into the story. I'm not stating I believe that. But everyone is quick to assail guilt to Ginault from an anonymous blogger. And let's say he did make fakes and now went legit. Do we not forgive criminals who have been rehabilitated, or drug and alcohol abusers who have recovered. Even if he did all this and he's doing it right now doesn't that mean he's changed or at least doing things legit?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Absolutely we forgive people. That's what makes us human.

Show me Ginault's apology so I can do that.

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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> Ah the Tisell. I had several.
> 
> The case on the Tisell did not match proportions at all, the bezel height and design is different, the end links are different, the clasp is different, the lugs aren't proportioned correctly, and on and on. Looks good from afar, but far from good. Nice little homage watch that never skirted the line of illegality.
> 
> ...


Ok so since Tisell isn't as good at the whole homage thing, they are okay but Ginault has the audacity to get those fine details right...

The bastards!!!

HOW DARE THEY!!!

Rant all you want about how dishonest TC/Charles Ginault is. I won't disagree because he really hasn't addressed those allegations directly which makes me think they are likely true. But the whole "Ginault are criminals because they are too good at the homage thing" is just lunacy.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Ah the Tisell. I had several.
> 
> The case on the Tisell did not match proportions at all, the bezel height and design is different, the end links are different, the clasp is different, the lugs aren't proportioned correctly, and on and on. Looks good from afar, but far from good. Nice little homage watch that never skirted the line of illegality.
> 
> ...


Not everyone carries around a micrometer with them. They look identical to a Rolex from a few paces. As I said if they had better engineering skills they would be closer in F&F. You think they deliberately went out and made a crap watch?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

jarlaxle said:


> Ok so since Tisell isn't as good at the whole homage thing, they are okay but Ginault has the audacity to get those fine details right...
> 
> The bastards!!!
> 
> ...


Can I get a Hallelujah?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

NickHanoi said:


> Too poor for a real Rolex, too much of a poseur to wear a Seiko that does the same thing without screaming FAKE "man".


Being able to spend several thousand dollars on a watch and choosing to spend several thousand dollars on a watch are two different things. To date, I have not chosen to spend that much money on a watch. Some day I might. Doesn't have a damn thing to do with being a poser.


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

JLS36 said:


> Has anyone considered that the blog and all these ties to tc or whatever you want are fictional? Made up in the same way cmsgtbo and docvail were written into the story. I'm not stating I believe that. But everyone is quick to assail guilt to Ginault from an anonymous blogger. And let's say he did make fakes and now went legit. *Do we not forgive criminals who have been rehabilitated, or drug and alcohol abusers who have recovered.* Even if he did all this and he's doing it right now doesn't that mean he's changed or at least doing things legit?


*After *the former have paid for their crimes and the latter have admitted their failings.


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

watchesaresocool said:


> I have a Tisell, it is literally the exact same thing. Hypocrite.





jarlaxle said:


> Ok, so where is the line between what Tisell did and what Ginault did? The quality of execution? The quality of raw materials? Are you saying Tisell is okay because its just 95% of a copy? What's the magic cutoff?


I understand what Dec1968 is trying to say. While both Tisell and Ginault are homages (copies style or look) of Submariner, Tisell is not a slavish clone like Ginault, i.e., parts are interchangeable. Dimensionally, Ginault case is a literal copy of Submariner case.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> Shouldn't the fella who's bought two Ginaults be able to answer that question?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for admitting that your entire "design" argument against Ginault can only be justified by referring to the adjustment mechanism on the clasp, and not to the case, crystal, dial, hands, bezel, insert, crown, or lume.
> 
> BTW I'm in agreement with you that the authorities need to look into Tsung Chi's finances for possible felonies including money laundering (using proceeds from TC sales to fund Ginault operations) and identity theft (the Wyoming document). But there's a tiny baby in there with all that bathwater.


I didn't admit that at all. Show me that direct quote where I said PRECISELY that.

If you're going to add a narrative, at least do better than that.

I mentioned one part and definitely didn't say anything about the other parts.

Yet.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> So you are against dishonesty and are now dishonest. I have a Tisell, it is literally the exact same thing. Hypocrite.


Literally the exact same thing?

Ok....grab your calipers and prove it. Prove they're IDENTICAL to each other. 100%. That's what 'exact same thing' means.

Go ahead. I'm waiting......

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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

"Just pruned the maple trees Rover"










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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

RNHC said:


> I understand what Dec1968 is trying to say. While both Tisell and Ginault are homages (copies style or look) of Submariner, Tisell is not a slavish clone like Ginault, i.e., parts are interchangeable. Dimensionally, Ginault case is a literal copy of Submariner case.


No. I am calling Dec1968 cause he called the glidelock system different on the Tisell vs the Ginault. He said the Ginault's glidelock was stealing while owning a Tisell and had no problem with the Tisell glide lock. When called out on it, he called the Tisell "different". It is not. Dec1968 is a dishonest hypocrite.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> Ok, so where is the line between what Tisell did and what Ginault did? The quality of execution? The quality of raw materials? Are you saying Tisell is okay because its just 95% of a copy? What's the magic cutoff?


The magic cutoff is the intent to copy 1:1, which Tsung Chi did with TC and Ginault. The magic cutoff is profiting from creating counterfeit watches and using said profits to fund his 'legit venture'. Isn't that a form of money laundering? The magic cutoff is falsifying legal documents.

There's tons more.

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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Literally the exact same thing?
> 
> Ok....grab your calipers and prove it. Prove they're IDENTICAL to each other. 100%. That's what 'exact same thing' means.
> 
> ...


Do you honestly base your morals on what's stealing and infringement based on .05 millimeters? That's how much you pushed the goalposts of the argument to save your ass? LMAO, that is some greasy politician stuff right there. I can't take your arguments seriously. You're a dishonest hypocrite.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Has anyone considered that the blog and all these ties to tc or whatever you want are fictional? Made up in the same way cmsgtbo and docvail were written into the story. I'm not stating I believe that. But everyone is quick to assail guilt to Ginault from an anonymous blogger. And let's say he did make fakes and now went legit. Do we not forgive criminals who have been rehabilitated, or drug and alcohol abusers who have recovered. Even if he did all this and he's doing it right now doesn't that mean he's changed or at least doing things legit?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I considered that.....but the question is WHY? What's the motive?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cheld (Jan 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> I didn't admit that at all. Show me that direct quote where I said PRECISELY that.
> 
> If you're going to add a narrative, at least do better than that.
> 
> ...


OK here's your opportunity to name every other part of the Ginault OR that is a violation of IP law other than the adjustment mechanism on the clasp. Go.

1.
2.
3.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

RNHC said:


> I understand what Dec1968 is trying to say. While both Tisell and Ginault are homages (copies style or look) of Submariner, Tisell is not a slavish clone like Ginault, i.e., parts are interchangeable. Dimensionally, Ginault case is a literal copy of Submariner case.


I agree that Ginault went to great lengths to get their homage just right while Tisell came up short. Is it your view that the small variances were intentional on Tisell part? That they said something like "well we want to get close, but not too close because that would be cheating"? I suppose its possible. More likely, they said "Well we are trying to sell these for $250 or less a pop so that's close enough."

Ginault appears to have set their bar higher. Clearly some see that as a sin. I see it as better engineering .


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> Ok so since Tisell isn't as good at the whole homage thing, they are okay but Ginault has the audacity to get those fine details right...
> 
> The bastards!!!
> 
> ...


Except that they (Ginault) profit DIRECTLY from his criminal activity and criminal past.

How does that NOT bother you?

Because you got a damn near Rolex clone for cheap? Except it doesn't 'say' Rolex, but let's be honest, that's what it's supposed to be and where it was born. It's lineage is tied DIRECTLY to counterfeiting. A straight line, if you will.

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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

NickHanoi said:


> Then wear a watch that is obviously what you can afford. If you are wearing fakes or "hommages", you are a poseur. That is exactly what posing is. Pretending you can afford the T-bone with Big Mac money in your pocket.
> 
> You "Choose" to pretend something you ain't. You pretend you are a Rolex guy, but you really only care about watches and other fine things to the point of a Seiko 5 budget.
> 
> ...


No need to rehash the homage debate, been there and done that. Goodbye.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> The magic cutoff is the intent to copy 1:1, which Tsung Chi did with TC and Ginault. The magic cutoff is profiting from creating counterfeit watches and using said profits to fund his 'legit venture'. Isn't that a form of money laundering? The magic cutoff is falsifying legal documents.


Show me this mythical 1:1 Rolex/Ginault copy of which you speak. Exactly it doesn't exist as you well know.

No evidence that Ginault/TC falsified legal docs whatsoever. They might exist but ANYONE could have submitted them in WY


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968, you've been arguing on a forum constantly against Ginault for dishonesty and you acted like a champion of righteousness. Complained about the clasp, called it stealing, and when called out on it for being okay with the Tisell glidelock,
you eventually said it's okay cause its barely a few decimals of a millimeter different. Completely ignoring the fact that the core mechanism and idea has been stolen, you say it's okay cause you'd need a caliper to see that it's ever 
so slightly different shape. This makes you a dishonest hypocrite, and quite frankly your arguments against Ginault are invalid, cause you are just as hypocritical and faudulent as the things you speak out against.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Not everyone carries around a micrometer with them. They look identical to a Rolex from a few paces. As I said if they had better engineering skills they would be closer in F&F. You think they deliberately went out and made a crap watch?


Now you're de-legitimizing your own argument.

Stop moving the goalposts. If you're going to fabricate a story, at least stick to the same script.

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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

RNHC said:


> Hmmm... and I see you in here bickering with me. Are you sure your story is non-fiction? It seems to contain a lot of assumptions and suppositions. And, please, no quotation marks needed. My mockery is literal.


I come here on my lunch break. However, when catching up for 20 minutes out the day, I literally see you in this topic for hours and hours, never leaving it alone. I'd rather be "mocked" for owning a quality watch and saving money than mocked by my peers and parents for not doing anything but bickering all day.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> Why no response Dec1968? I thought you were against dishonesty? So you accept that you are in fact a hypocrite?


I'm sorry, is this 'you say jump and I say how high' time in grade school?

Dang dude. Relax......

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> Being able to spend several thousand dollars on a watch and choosing to spend several thousand dollars on a watch are two different things. To date, I have not chosen to spend that much money on a watch. Some day I might. Doesn't have a damn thing to do with being a poser.


I've owned several Rolex models, including a Gold Presidents. I choose to not spend money on a Rolex and choose to spend my money how I see fit.

That guy is probably poor as dirt and that why he thinks that way.

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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Now you're de-legitimizing your own argument.
> 
> Stop moving the goalposts. If you're going to fabricate a story, at least stick to the same script.


Loving the court jester act. Keep it up. Such a hoot


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

RNHC said:


> I understand what Dec1968 is trying to say. While both Tisell and Ginault are homages (copies style or look) of Submariner, Tisell is not a slavish clone like Ginault, i.e., parts are interchangeable. Dimensionally, Ginault case is a literal copy of Submariner case.


Tisell freely admits it is an homage watch. They also intentionally don't make it a 1:1 copy. I asked the owner personally. Nice guy. He doesn't want trouble, he just wants to sell some watches people like at a low price.

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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> No. I am calling Dec1968 cause he called the glidelock system different on the Tisell vs the Ginault. He said the Ginault's glidelock was stealing while owning a Tisell and had no problem with the Tisell glide lock. When called out on it, he called the Tisell "different". It is not. Dec1968 is a dishonest hypocrite.


Again, grab some calipers and prove me wrong.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

cheld said:


> OK here's your opportunity to name every other part of the Ginault OR that is a violation of IP law other than the adjustment mechanism on the clasp. Go.
> 
> 1.
> 2.
> 3.


I will do my best over time. That'll take a lot of time, as all of the parts are virtual clones.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Serious question for the haters in this thread: short of TC being imprisoned and Ginault closing shop, is there anything that will get you to shut up about this? Is that your end-goal? Even if it's at the price of the people who love their products on their own merit being left without?

If so, then we might all be in agreement about who the former producer of fakes and current disseminator of lies is, but maybe some people need to take a look in the mirror and figure out who the a-hole here is.

Don't be the a-hole who needs to spoil it for everyone else. No one likes that guy.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Show me this mythical 1:1 Rolex/Ginault copy of which you speak. Exactly it doesn't exist as you well know.
> 
> No evidence that Ginault/TC falsified legal docs whatsoever. They might exist but ANYONE could have submitted them in WY


How far in the sand did you bury your head?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

jarlaxle said:


> I agree that Ginault went to great lengths to get their homage just right while Tisell came up short. Is it your view that the small variances were intentional on Tisell part? That they said something like "well we want to get close, but not too close because that would be cheating"? I suppose its possible. More likely, they said "Well we are trying to sell these for $250 or less a pop so that's close enough."
> 
> Ginault appears to have set their bar higher. Clearly some see that as a sin. I see it as better engineering .


Again, better copying. Not better engineering. Engineering is something else. You know that there are machines that can make 1:1 copies out there.

You brought up a good point. Tisell chose not to make 1:1 copy of Submariner case, for whatever reason. Why did Ginault? Why to the point where Rolex parts fit right in?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Tisell freely admits it is an homage watch. They also interested finally don't make it a 1:1 copy. I asked the owner personally. Nice guy. He doesn't want trouble, he just wants to sell some watches people like at a low price.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How is that any different from Ginault? They constantly stated they want to homage the Rolex, and it's clearly not a 1:1 copy as it is a blend of different Rolex inspirations over time, and they just want to sell some watches people like at a low price.

But then again, this is coming from a guy who said the Tisell glidelock is ok, while the Ginault is not, cause the Tisell can be measured to be .0005% bigger with the use of calipers.

You are a dishonest hypocrite.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> Serious question for the haters in this thread: short of TC being imprisoned and Ginault closing shop, is there anything that will get you to shut up about this? Is that your end-goal? Even if it's at the price of the people who love their products on their own merit being left without?
> 
> If so, then we might all be in agreement about who the former producer of fakes and current disseminator of lies is, but maybe some people need to take a look in the mirror and figure out who the a-hole here is.
> 
> Don't be the a-hole who needs to spoil it for everyone else. No one likes that guy.


This is the million dollar question.

I don't want Ginault to go away. I want them to come clean. It's that simple. The watch is excellent, and we ALL agree on that. It's the lies and deceit and such that is horrible.

If they come clean on that, pay whatever fine/sentence handed down, then for me, I'm good. Apology accepted. Just do things above board, get whatever things in order needed to run a legitimate above board business, including patent issues - problem solved.

There is honor and opportunity here. Both available to Ginault with the truth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yeah, You're right.... they look SO different


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Yeah, You're right.... they look SO different


They do look different, even from that distance. Go see your eye doctor lol.

Both have hands, a bezel, dial, etc

OMG ITS A CLONE!!!!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> This is the million dollar question.
> 
> I don't want Ginault to go away. I want them to come clean. It's that simple. The watch is excellent, and we ALL agree on that. It's the lies and deceit and such that is horrible.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Can't say I disagree.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

NickHanoi said:


> Anybody wearing a "Hommage" or fake Rolex will do. I was responding to a particular poor person, but evidently fat fingered it. If you can't afford a real watch, and I see you wearing an obvious fake or Hommage, you've lost all my respect and trust. No job for you. No loan for you. And for the girls, no vag for you. Fake is sad. "Hommage" is an excuse fore being to poor to pick up the check for 10 or 15 friends carelessly. Poseurs.


I get that you're making a statement, but try to be less 'Biff Tannen' with it, ok?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> Fair enough. Can't say I disagree.


That's really what this boils down to. I'm glad we can agree on that. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> This is the million dollar question.
> 
> I don't want Ginault to go away. I want them to come clean. It's that simple. The watch is excellent, and we ALL agree on that. It's the lies and deceit and such that is horrible.
> 
> ...


Better yet, let's just make the proportions of everything .00005% bigger, so that anyone that can only tell with the use of calipers, see that is not the same dimensions. That should appease the nay sayers.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> Do you honestly base your morals on what's stealing and infringement based on .05 millimeters? That's how much you pushed the goalposts of the argument to save your ass? LMAO, that is some greasy politician stuff right there. I can't take your arguments seriously. You're a dishonest hypocrite.


Let's understand that I base those things on ethics - fixed goalpost style.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porsche993 said:


> Loving the court jester act. Keep it up. Such a hoot


Thanks. It's nice having a fan base with a lower IQ than my own. Easy to please those folks.....

Just kidding, man, seriously, I'm not saying that about you at all. I've long had respect for you, even when we disagree. I wish to keep that going.

I'm trying to keep things light here and not make this personal. One guy seems to really be pushing the boundaries of that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ronsetoe (Jul 19, 2007)

I can’t believe I have read most of this thread, slow sales week! I remember seeing this thread when started as I have been on WUS for a long time. I never bought into their marketing BS and never bought a watch from them. After reading all of this I am very glad I never did. The closest sub homage watch I own is a glycine combat, which is not really an homage or clone at all. I could not get into the DD blog but have read many other forums and websites about this fiasco. Again I AM GLAD, NOW, THAT I NEVER PURCHASED ONE!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> No, when you were called out for having the Tisell you said it's different. That's how you justified it. But NOW when that excuse doesn't muster up, you say you want no part of it?
> 
> Why not say that in the first place?
> 
> ...


What EXCUSE? I previously used to enjoy the homage watch market. I clearly stated I got out of the homage game, due to Ginault, and of course that included any and all homage watches I enjoyed in the past. I've never shied away from that nor have I lied about it in any capacity.

In owning a Tisell or five, two Ginault's, Steinhart, etc, I had the luxury of putting them side by side and comparing them. The Tisell was miles apart from the Ginault in fit/finish/design/measurements, and so much more. Why does this bother you? Do you need a moral victory or a cookie or something? Maybe a Snickers bar. I've seen that commercial.

Just because you keep repeating 'dishonest hypocrite' doesn't make it true or accurate.

I made a clean break from the homage world, told my story hear, more than once, and yet you want to Time Travel and cherrypick my story and insert language , words, phrases, etc, months and years out of order to somehow validate your anger or whatever this is you have. That's called FABRICATING A STORY! You're a MASTER at that.

Dude, seek help. Seriously.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> Except that they (Ginault) profit DIRECTLY from his criminal activity and criminal past.
> 
> How does that NOT bother you?
> 
> ...


I've already addressed the "better at homage watches" part. Guess we will have to agree to disagree but the fact that there are so many out there (Invicta, Tisell, Seiko, Steinhart, Squale, etc.) suggests I have plenty of company. The only reason Ginault "crosses the line" is that they are simply better made (nay, engineered?) than the rest.

As I stated earlier, I won't disagree that TC/Ginault has mislead the public as to his background. That background appears to include selling fake Rolexes (for a few hundred dollars, to people that knew they were fake when they bought them, sort of like when I bought a "Cartier" watch in Times Square in the 80's for $25, I knew exactly what I was getting and it wasn't the real thing).

So do I want to do business with a guy that used to sell fake Rolexes? Tough one, still struggling with that. I can see your point but I can also admire a guy for going straight.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> So the I want to do business with a guy that used to sell fake Rolexes? Tough one, still struggling with that. I can see your point but I can also admire a guy for going straight.


Provided they he does in fact 'come clean'.....that still has yet to occur.

I hope that he does and the brand thrives from it. They build a fine timepiece, but the stench of lies and deceit is simply overwhelming. And it taints the entire company.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

jarlaxle said:


> ...they are simply better made (nay, engineered?) than the rest.


Still not engineering. "Better made" conveys fits what you are trying to say.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> Provided they he does in fact 'come clean'.....that still has yet to occur.
> 
> I hope that he does and the brand thrives from it. They build a fine timepiece, but the stench of lies and deceit is simply overwhelming. And it taints the entire company.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You might attract less invective if you personalize these statements i.e. "They build a fine timepiece but in my opinion the lies and deceit is overwhelming. For me, it taints the entire company."

One is a statement of personal view, the other appears to be an effort to tell others what they should think. Just a suggestion.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Its been said before


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## RNHC (Feb 13, 2010)

watchesaresocool said:


> Lol, so I got blocked. This is what happens when you confront hypocrites who champion righteousness and legality and show them how hypocritical they are. Instead of tackling your criticisms having a discussion, they block you. Hilarious. Dec1968 is a fake, a liar, and has some ulterior motives against Ginault, clearly.


How is the story and lineage coming along? Adding a moment of Internet triumph to the story, are we? Good job!


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

All I can say is congratulations on burying any real informing under dozens of bickering posts.

Has anyone taken the time to do any photo data extraction from the Ginault Instagram of their machinist making cases? It would be interesting if anything matched.

FWIW, a design patent is only enforceable if it is defended (arm chair quarterback, but attorneys can chime in). The fact numerous on-line vendors now openly sell copies of the Glidelock design without Rolex defending their patent infringement claim, it is likely unenforceable legally at this point.

I'm assuming Rolex is simply ignoring it because to attempt to defend all the companies infringing on their design patents would become too costly. It simply isn't worth it.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

RNHC said:


> How is the story and lineage coming along? Adding a moment of Internet triumph to the story, are we? Good job!


What does this add to the discussion? But for the record... yes. Owning Dec1968 with logic and reason only adds to the amusement of wearing my Ginault.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

My new fav


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> You might attract less invective if you personalize these statements i.e. "They build a fine timepiece but in my opinion the lies and deceit is overwhelming. For me, it taints the entire company."
> 
> One is a statement of personal view, the other appears to be an effort to tell others what they should think. Just a suggestion.


Thank you for pointing that out. I'll modify as best as I can accordingly.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> All I can say is congratulations on burying any real informing under dozens of bickering posts.
> 
> Has anyone taken the time to do any photo data extraction from the Ginault Instagram of their machinist making cases? It would be interesting if anything matched.
> 
> ...


Deleted

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> And 'Ainters gonna Ginault'
> 
> Had to. Just poking fun.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't get the joke or how it applies to my post.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> I don't get the joke or how it applies to my post.


Whoa - forum mishap. Was to the 'Haters Gonna Hate' oic. Sorry!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

watchesaresocool said:


> Lmao, so you block me but still view my posts. Hardly a block then when you view my posts regardless huh? Good job with the fake block.
> 
> I don't take cookies from dishonest hypocrites. Until you man up to your criticisms and accept your faults you should not ask Ginault to do the same. Why should they do it but not you? Hypocrite?


Omg you're so right....what was I thinking not being subservient to you, oh master. How can I please you, oh good sir?

I think everyone sees you for who you wish to be and who you really are.

With that, I may or may not elect to view your comments. That's the beauty of having control over my own destiny.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Hello!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Omg you're so right....what was I thinking not being subservient to you, oh master. How can I please you, oh good sir?
> 
> I think everyone sees you for who you wish to be and who you really are.
> 
> ...


Let's be honest, you're going to look at 100% of my comments. You're not fooling anyone.

As far as the wish vs reality comment... that's ironic. People now see you for the hypocrite you are rather than the champion of righteousness you wish you were.


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## darson4eva (Apr 18, 2017)

In before the lock...:-!


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

This tread has been too entertaining. Every day you see a new twist. I'm actually looking forward to what Ginault would conclude in their findings and this tread would fire up again if Ginault was making that up or not.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Might be good to leave it at that....

Interesting thread, this is....


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

It looks like a nice watch...!


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## waterdude (Apr 19, 2012)

Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


>


Nice and grizzly!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I think we need some ORII prototype pics to lighten things up. In the meantime its lunchtime here in DFW


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> Whoa - forum mishap. Was to the 'Haters Gonna Hate' oic. Sorry!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No problem.

Would still like to see those other photos analyzed.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Is anyone going with the domed crystal on ORII? 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

cwfmon said:


>


The AR coating makes such a huge improvement


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> I think we need some ORII prototype pics to lighten things up. In the meantime its lunchtime here in DFW


I'm actually pretty surprised Ginault hasn't released a teaser pic or two of the OR2 to try and counteract all the negativity out there right now. A picture of one of the new ceramic bezels alone (not the whole watch, just the bezel) would give their fans something to talk about other than this.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## Watchhour (Jun 29, 2019)

I'ma contact Tsi Chung Lee. Since the story is out, I want it for $450...


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> The magic cutoff is the intent to copy 1:1, which Tsung Chi did with TC and Ginault. The magic cutoff is profiting from creating counterfeit watches and using said profits to fund his 'legit venture'. Isn't that a form of money laundering? The magic cutoff is falsifying legal documents.
> 
> There's tons more.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Wait so what bothers you now is that it's a 1 to 1 homage. Wasn't it a 1 to 1 when you bought not one but two Ginault?

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

JLS36 said:


> Wait so what bothers you now is that it's a 1 to 1 homage. Wasn't it a 1 to 1 when you bought not one but two Ginault?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Let's not rehash what I've repeatedly stated. Go back and re-read. I'm not going to engage that topic further (EDIT: in this thread, unless requested or necessary).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> Let's not rehash what I've repeatedly stated. Go back and re-read. I'm not going to engage that topic further.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought you started a new thread?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Watchhour said:


> I'ma contact Tsi Chung Lee. Since the story is out, I want it for $450...


€700 would be my ceiling.....but we do not need another watch my wife says...


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

GarbanzoNegro said:


>


Did you change your original crystal as well? The thread is so mucked up I'm missing the actual watch owners news.

Thank you
RD


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Riddim Driven said:


> Did you change your original crystal as well? The thread is so mucked up I'm missing the actual watch owners news.
> 
> Thank you
> RD


Not yet. I bought a flat crystal from Ginault and plan to change it. Some day...


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> I thought you started a new thread?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I did.

In reflecting on how this devolved, the personal attacks, and at the request of some here, I created a thread where these discussions regarding the recent scandal can occur there instead of here, and all of you can enjoy this thread as fans of Ginault (hopefully free from the negativity moving forward).

I hope all of you can respect the parameters of the new thread as disclosed in the initial post.

I'm sure most of us, if not all of us, will stay courteous moving forward.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Does anyone have the blue aluminum bezel with gilt numerals? If so, can they explain if they still like it or if they would rather have gone with black?

I really love the look, but I'm not sure if it's worth sticking with vs black ceramic. Ended up choosing Sellita movement with flat AR, but the bezel is the toughest choice.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I did have that bezel but the blue looked a little muted to me(I guess that I am spoiled by the ceramic bezels on my other watches)... sold it and am waiting on my blue , ceramic, ORII. It was a dark blue color but I guess that I just like the shiny ceramic look a little more.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

drttown said:


> I did have that bezel but the blue looked a little muted to me(I guess that I am spoiled by the ceramic bezels on my other watches)... sold it and am waiting on my blue , ceramic, ORII. It was a dark blue color but I guess that I just like the shiny ceramic look a little more.


Nice. The only reason I'm not sure about the blue ceramic bezel is the lack of gilt numerals on that one. Shame...


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Not yet. I bought a flat crystal from Ginault and plan to change it. Some day...


Please get it AR coated (inner side only)


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Please get it AR coated (inner side only)


Will ask about this option, although I would not like to have the usual blueish color.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Not yet. I bought a flat crystal from Ginault and plan to change it. Some day...


From the angle of your shot it looked reflection free and legibility was evident -- Thanks again. I know what a Ginault enthusiast you are. Among others I was amazed at the drive others have had to modify the stock watch which I thought was great as is 

RD


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Will ask about this option, although I would not like to have the usual blueish color.


If its on the inside only with a high quality brand you'll be fine. Ask CWFMON where he got his done.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> I did.
> 
> In reflecting on how this devolved, the personal attacks, and at the request of some here, I created a thread where these discussions regarding the recent scandal can occur there instead of here, and all of you can enjoy this thread as fans of Ginault (hopefully free from the negativity moving forward).
> 
> ...


I woke up today, page four hundred and something. Went on a long haul flight, landed, had a coffee and went on to check WUS to find... More than twenty pages, haha. After seeing that the first four of the new batch were again people just judging not only this brand but also other forum members who have one of this watches i decided to skip to the end and stop reading it altogether...

...just to find this. Well, I must say I fully appreciate what you have done. It's the courteous and kind thing to do. Hats off to you, sir.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> I woke up today, page four hundred and something. Went on a long haul flight, landed, had a coffee and went on to check WUS to find... More than twenty pages, haha. After seeing that the first four of the new batch were again people just judging not only this brand but also other forum members who have one of this watches i decided to skip to the end and stop reading it altogether...
> 
> ...just to find this. Well, I must say I fully appreciate what you have done. It's the courteous and kind thing to do. Hats off to you, sir.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

Ginault alway's had that cloud of uncertainty above their head. And like alot of people. I chose to ingore that because they do make a great watch in that price range. And i like the style alot. I went and pre ordered the ORII a few weeks back. But, after all that's going on now. And like some others here have said. No matter how this turns out. It will put more of a bad stain on their name. And after some long hard thought. I rethought everything over. And decided to cancel my pre order. It's not the end of the world to me. I am looking at some other alternatives right now. And have no beef with anyone who loves or hates them.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

timekepr said:


> Ginault alway's had that cloud of uncertainty above their head. And like alot of people. I chose to ingore that because they do make a great watch in that price range. And i like the style alot. I went and pre ordered the ORII a few weeks back. But, after all that's going on now. And like some others here have said. No matter how this turns out. It will put more of a bad stain on their name. And after some long hard thought. I rethought everything over. And decided to cancel my pre order. It's not the end of the world to me. I am looking at some other alternatives right now. And have no beef with anyone who loves or hates them.


I think thats the point. We're all adults here and are capable of making our own decisions as to whether or not we wish to buy a product. There are just too many options out there to get hung up. If you're unhappy (for whatever reason) you won't enjoy wearing the watch and thats ultimately the end game.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> In reflecting on how this devolved, the personal attacks, and at the request of some here, I created a thread where these discussions regarding the recent scandal can occur there instead of here, and all of you can enjoy this thread as fans of Ginault (hopefully free from the negativity moving forward).
> 
> I hope all of you can respect the parameters of the new thread as disclosed in the initial post.
> 
> I'm sure most of us, if not all of us, will stay courteous moving forward.


Link to the new thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-legitimate-lets-discuss-4989751.html


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Avo said:


> Link to the new thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-legitimate-lets-discuss-4989751.html


Hilarious that my pizza is the lead image....

Man it was a GOOOOD pizza.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Guys, gold sand hands/indexes with black ceramic bezel, or white?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> Guys, gold sand hands/indexes with black ceramic bezel, or white?


Personally I would go white Lum. Especially with modern ceramic bezel


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

[email protected]_180 said:


> What's the urgency: Legal troubles? Availability of support, parts? The very existence of this "upstanding" business entity? You make a good argument against doing what you suggest, here.
> 
> No disrespect intended but instead of grabbing one of these things, perhaps one should grab their own ass and wallet at the same time... Hold on to your Francs and trade your work for something that will mean more to you over time.


The urgency is words of high quality at bargain price are out despite the smear campaign, slow deciders may have to wait.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

White lume definitely for me. I'm 50% between blue and black bezel. Blue looks to me a bit more Seamaster-y while black looks more Sea Dweller-y. On the crystal, I'm 85% on no cyclops for this one, as I'll keep my original OR1 with cyclops and vintage lume.


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> Ah, and still you guys keep posting things, like we care. Do I need to remind you this is the Ginault's fan club thread? It's not just that I'm one, but most of the people that post here are too. You will just bore yourselves to death, make yourselves look like fools, and bore us a bit too in the meantime.
> 
> I mean, by now it should be 100% clear that most of us don't care whether Ginault is TC, Spectra, Cobra, El Cartel de Cali or the Evil Empire. We just love a well made watch, as close as the 5-digit Rolex Submariner as possible. Really, nothing more complicated than that. Get over it.


Good thing you were elected to speak for the 'us' did I miss the poll? Or was it held on the rep watch forum?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Good thing you were elected to speak for the 'us' did I miss the poll? Or was it held on the rep watch forum?


Take it to the new topic dude, lets keep this drama free now, thanks.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Good thing you were elected to speak for the 'us' did I miss the poll? Or was it held on the rep watch forum?


In case you missed it
https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-legitimate-lets-discuss-4989751.html


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

watchesaresocool said:


> Guys, gold sand hands/indexes with black ceramic bezel, or white?


White. The first post on this thread has that combo and while it looks vintage, I think the matching combos look much better, particularly when you compare it to the pics posted earlier today which are stunning.


----------



## AMargerison (Nov 16, 2017)

Phew.

After 5000+ posts I need a

....ahhhhhh! 









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


----------



## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Hello!


I LIKE that combination! Is it just the camera or do the hands appear to glow icy blue during the day? I think that's the one right there for me.


----------



## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

AMargerison said:


> Phew.
> 
> After 5000+ posts I need a
> 
> ...


Looks awesome !!!


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> I LIKE that combination! Is it just the camera or do the hands appear to glow icy blue during the day? I think that's the one right there for me.


Thats the charged BGW9 (smurf blue) lume.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Question for guys who have the previous OR and aluminum bezels in general.

Do aluminum bezels really feel less premium than ceramic? I have a Tisll and a few Parnis with ceramic bezels. Had a Steinhart with a ceramic bezel. This upcoming Ginault is my first 1k+ purchase. I'm honestly kind of over the holy shiny plastic looking ceramic. But everyone seems be lusting over ceramic than aluminum these days.
The fact that you can find ceramic on 100 dollar watches while watches like the black bay still pull off the aluminum bezel nicely makes me wonder if I really want the ceramic on the OR2. That, and the blue and gold combo is still looking really nice to me which is aluminum only... while ceramic would just not be new to me with my previous line up.

I just don't want to get it and feel like I made a mistake. It's a tough decision...


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> Guys, gold sand hands/indexes with black ceramic bezel, or white?


Personally, always white.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> I LIKE that combination! Is it just the camera or do the hands appear to glow icy blue during the day? I think that's the one right there for me.


As stated by another member, I charged the watch and took the picture. It is the one with the BGW9 lume.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

For me its an easy decision. Never liked the look of ceramic, especially on a vintage Rolex inspired model. Fact that your preferred color is only available in aluminum should make the decision easier for you. Plus I'm not sure the 60 min indices are a good look although I won't know for sure until I see pics of the actual bezel rather than a computer mockup. Al all day everyday.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> For me its an easy decision. Never liked the look of ceramic, especially on a vintage Rolex inspired model. Fact that your preferred color is only available in aluminum should make the decision easier for you. Plus I'm not sure the 60 min indices are a good look although I won't know for sure until I see pics of the actual bezel rather than a computer mockup. Al all day everyday.


I getcha. Well I don't know if the OR2 would look all the vintage anymore with a flat crystal, ceramic bezel and white lume instead of the gold sand. But overall I getcha.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




----------



## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

Hand build in America. What a scam.

Hand build by the Chinese criminal fake industry.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

murokello said:


> Hand build in America. What a scam.
> 
> Hand build by the Chinese criminal fake industry.


Yes, we know already. Those types of comments are being asked to be posted over at the new thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/ginault-legitimate-lets-discuss-4989751.html


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


>


I'm a little anal, can you align that bezel? Looks very good!


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

"Question for guys who have the previous OR and aluminum bezels in general.

Do aluminum bezels really feel less premium than ceramic? I have a Tisll and a few Parnis with ceramic bezels. Had a Steinhart with a ceramic bezel. This upcoming Ginault is my first 1k+ purchase. I'm honestly kind of over the holy shiny plastic looking ceramic. But everyone seems be lusting over ceramic than aluminum these days.
The fact that you can find ceramic on 100 dollar watches while watches like the black bay still pull off the aluminum bezel nicely makes me wonder if I really want the ceramic on the OR2. That, and the blue and gold combo is still looking really nice to me which is aluminum only... while ceramic would just not be new to me with my previous line up.

I just don't want to get it and feel like I made a mistake. It's a tough decision..."



I like both the aluminum and ceramic bezels. I think the ceramic would make the watch feel more premium, to me, but with that being said: I have a Squale 20 Atmos with the aluminum; I sold my ceramic bezel and looked for one with the aluminum bezel. I just wanted another watch with an aluminum bezel. I have my Trident Pro MK3 40mm with the ceramic bezel; so I guess I just wanted to have a mix and not just all aluminum or all ceramic. If you want a more muted/dull look then I would say go with the aluminum. If you want a more polished/shiny bezel, then go with the ceramic; either way I don't think you can go wrong.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

drttown said:


> I'm a little anal, can you align that bezel? Looks very good!












There you go, Sir!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> Question for guys who have the previous OR and aluminum bezels in general.
> 
> Do aluminum bezels really feel less premium than ceramic? I have a Tisll and a few Parnis with ceramic bezels. Had a Steinhart with a ceramic bezel. This upcoming Ginault is my first 1k+ purchase. I'm honestly kind of over the holy shiny plastic looking ceramic. But everyone seems be lusting over ceramic than aluminum these days.
> The fact that you can find ceramic on 100 dollar watches while watches like the black bay still pull off the aluminum bezel nicely makes me wonder if I really want the ceramic on the OR2. That, and the blue and gold combo is still looking really nice to me which is aluminum only... while ceramic would just not be new to me with my previous line up.
> ...


Also consider the replacement cost:
- aluminium: easy and cheap to buy
- ceramic: restricted to Ginault and more expensive?


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I think kind of depends on which look & feel are you after. For a proper tool watch, go aluminium. For a more luxury look, ceramic is the way to go. I personally like to have both, but in the long run I love the way aluminium ages, getting the odd ding and scratch here and there. That's one of the things I love on the old 5 digit and 4 digit subs, when they start to develop that battered look. Like a tank that has been to many battles (and survived!).


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> There you go, Sir!


Thank you and I think you knew this, but I was just being silly! Great looking watch; it looks like it has seen some good use!


----------



## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I was thinking today of what would be my ideal next model from Ginault. If they made a 36mm Explorer I homage with their modern Rolex bracelet and sword hands I would buy it in a second. I would take Mercedes hands on that as well since it is the one instance of Mercedes hands that I think looks alright, but sword hands would still be my preference. 

The Smith’s Everest 36mm seems to go over pretty well. Now imagine that with applied indexes, and Ginault quality. What are other people’s thoughts on that?

I know that they are talking about doing a GMT (presumably GMT master II) which is probably a more popular model and would sell better, but a guy can dream 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## timekepr (Oct 5, 2015)

watchesaresocool said:


> Question for guys who have the previous OR and aluminum bezels in general.
> 
> Do aluminum bezels really feel less premium than ceramic? I have a Tisll and a few Parnis with ceramic bezels. Had a Steinhart with a ceramic bezel. This upcoming Ginault is my first 1k+ purchase. I'm honestly kind of over the holy shiny plastic looking ceramic. But everyone seems be lusting over ceramic than aluminum these days.
> The fact that you can find ceramic on 100 dollar watches while watches like the black bay still pull off the aluminum bezel nicely makes me wonder if I really want the ceramic on the OR2. That, and the blue and gold combo is still looking really nice to me which is aluminum only... while ceramic would just not be new to me with my previous line up.
> ...


I think it could depend on your priorities. If you value looks over durability. If your not worried about scratches. And prefer the looks of the aluminum. Go aluminum. If your worried about scratches. Go ceramic.


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## sscully (Dec 18, 2013)

badgerracer said:


> I was thinking today of what would be my ideal next model from Ginault. If they made a 36mm Explorer I homage with their modern Rolex bracelet and sword hands I would buy it in a second. I would take Mercedes hands on that as well since it is the one instance of Mercedes hands that I think looks alright, but sword hands would still be my preference.
> 
> The Smith's Everest 36mm seems to go over pretty well. Now imagine that with applied indexes, and Ginault quality. What are other people's thoughts on that?


I'd agree with an Explorer version ( 36 or 40 mm ) would be a good call. A Smiths PRS-25, which is no slouch as is, adding to it applied indexes would be a great addition.

I do agree with the larger market statement.


----------



## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > I LIKE that combination! Is it just the camera or do the hands appear to glow icy blue during the day? I think that's the one right there for me.
> ...


Domed Crystal and aluminum bezel correct?

Almost too many choices for a neophyte like myself. I can't decide if I want the complete retro look of the domed crystal and aluminum bezel or flat Crystal and ceramic bezel. Does the ORI domed Crystal have anti-reflective on it? Does it matter?

Thanks!


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> Domed Crystal and aluminum bezel correct?
> 
> Almost too many choices for a neophyte like myself. I can't decide if I want the complete retro look of the domed crystal and aluminum bezel or flat Crystal and ceramic bezel. Does the ORI domed Crystal have anti-reflective on it? Does it matter?
> 
> Thanks!


The ORI domes crystal does not have any AR.

I will switch it with a flat crystal (some day...).


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> Does the ORI domed Crystal have anti-reflective on it? Does it matter?
> 
> Thanks!


No and Yes


----------



## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

*GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER*

Thank you* Dec1968* for starting the new thread |>|>|>

Accuracy is +4s since the beginning of the month:-d


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Is this one of the prototypes? ^^

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

*Re: GINAULT OCEAN-ROVER*



mtbmike said:


> Thank you* Dec1968* for starting the new thread |>|>|>
> 
> Accuracy is +4s since the beginning of the month:-d


You're welcome. It needed to happen. So far, it's settled in to healthy debate/conversation, with many excellent viewpoints and discussions. Only a select few have attempted to make it difficult over there. Most everyone is self-policing well.

Glad this thread has returned back to its normal rhythm. That new thread was very necessary.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Another fine day to enjoy my OR.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Is this one of the prototypes? ^^
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


looks like it. Def not maxi-dial indices


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

timekepr said:


> Ginault alway's had that cloud of uncertainty above their head. And like alot of people. I chose to ingore that because they do make a great watch in that price range. And i like the style alot. I went and pre ordered the ORII a few weeks back. But, after all that's going on now. And like some others here have said. No matter how this turns out. It will put more of a bad stain on their name. And after some long hard thought. I rethought everything over. And decided to cancel my pre order. It's not the end of the world to me. I am looking at some other alternatives right now. And have no beef with anyone who loves or hates them.


I haven't even looked at this thread for some time as it just wasn't worth reading the junk that was being written by so many malcontents but I have to say that I'm disappointed to see anyone canceling their orders or selling their Ginaults just based on what others have been saying here on the forum.

I don't get why so many have felt so passionately about the alleged miss-information from the manufacturers blurb when we are bombarded daily with just such advertising from every possible product from car makers to washing powder makers and I don't see too many people declaring a washing powder manufacturer as liars and cheats when their T-Shirt comes out of the wash and it's not whiter than white.

I couldn't give a toss about any advertising spin and I couldn't give a toss about what some of the self proclaimed intellectuals here on the forum think about me or my watch.

I'll continue to buy and enjoy what ever watch or washing powder I like.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Anyone interested in some useful info regarding the 7275 movement should take a look at this link. There's also a high rez vid of the movement in action at the end.

Ginault Caliber 7275 Watch Movement | CaliberCorner.com


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

And another wristie to celebrate a beautiful Winter morning here in Aus.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> There you go, Sir!


That looks so good. Makes me question my gold and blue color choice of I stick with aluminum.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

59er said:


> And another wristie to celebrate a beautiful Winter morning here in Aus.


Nice pic and watch, enjoy your winter weather as it is 100 degrees here and the sun/heat is just beating us up(there is a high pressure system all around us and it won't move)!!!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

59er said:


> And another wristie to celebrate a beautiful Winter morning here in Aus.


Nice pic and watch, enjoy your winter weather as it is 100 degrees here and the sun/heat is just beating us up(there is a high pressure system all around us and it won't move)!!!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

My Ginault, and my 100lb pit bull, say hi!!!


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

So I have never been a big fan of the cyclops date. Today though I kept looking at pictures of the date and no date OR’s and it almost seems like the no date is “missing something” without the cyclops. I have already pre-ordered the no date ORII, but am debating about switching to the date and cyclops version. Maybe it is just the quality of the pictures on the Ginault site making me must after the cyclops. 

The more pre-orders I do I realize I am way too indecisive to order a specific configuration of a watch 3-5 months in advance


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

badgerracer said:


> So I have never been a big fan of the cyclops date. Today though I kept looking at pictures of the date and no date OR's and it almost seems like the no date is "missing something" without the cyclops. I have already pre-ordered the no date ORII, but am debating about switching to the date and cyclops version. Maybe it is just the quality of the pictures on the Ginault site making me must after the cyclops.
> 
> The more pre-orders I do I realize I am way too indecisive to order a specific configuration of a watch 3-5 months in advance
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I had both but when it came time to thin the collection it was the Date with cyclops that I had to keep.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> So I have never been a big fan of the cyclops date. Today though I kept looking at pictures of the date and no date OR's and it almost seems like the no date is "missing something" without the cyclops. I have already pre-ordered the no date ORII, but am debating about switching to the date and cyclops version. Maybe it is just the quality of the pictures on the Ginault site making me must after the cyclops.
> 
> The more pre-orders I do I realize I am way too indecisive to order a specific configuration of a watch 3-5 months in advance
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I also had both. A cyclops C1 lume prototype and my current BGW9 no date maxi dial. I love the symmetry of the no date. The cyclops was too distracting, accumulates junk around the edges and distorts the hands as they pass underneath. The domed crystal was also preferable for a vintage inspired design. Obviously YMMV.


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## bjjkk (Oct 20, 2011)

drttown said:


> My Ginault, and my 100lb pit bull, say hi!!!
> 
> View attachment 14303919


That a big doggy, can we get a pic?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

So the thread re: "Is Ginault Legitimate" is now closed. For those that didn't participate/follow, it had quite the twists and turns to say the least.

If anyone is interested, I just started a new thread on the Chinese Mechanical forum to get their input on the Ginault 7275.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/made-usa-cheap-chinese-clone-need-your-help-re-ginault-7275-movement-4991515.html


----------



## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

jarlaxle said:


> So the thread re: "Is Ginault Legitimate" is now closed. For those that didn't participate/follow, it had quite the twists and turns to say the least.
> 
> If anyone is interested, I just started a new thread on the Chinese Mechanical forum to get their input on the Ginault 7275.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/made-usa-cheap-chinese-clone-need-your-help-re-ginault-7275-movement-4991515.html


My Mods are not going to play Whack-a-Mole with more Ginault/replica threads. Please refrain from starting new threads, and as a reminder from our rules:

_9. No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a Moderator or site Administrators. In general, any posts that involve the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is strictly prohibited._


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I just hope that the controversy discussion doesn't crawl back in here. It's nice to finally have a positive conversation about our Ginault watches without 500 posts an hour talking about outside politics.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

I find that there is no controversy really.

For me Ginault is a new brand started and run by a small group of enthusiast watchmakers that have chosen to use a popular and practical design that although is nothing particularly new or revolutionary is exactly the sort of watch that I am attracted to.

This style of watch has been made for decades by dozens of makers both small and large and any differences are usually very small so who really deserves credit for this design is debatable and of no real interest to me.

As far as who I buy my watches from, well I'll buy from whoever is offering the type of thing I want and at a reasonable price but I'd rather support a small group of enthusiast builders than a luxury conglomerate.

I too hope this thread stays on track as I'm sure the original and current forum staff started and continue to run these forums for enthusiast watch collectors with the hope that it will ad to the enjoyment of watch-collecting in general.

I still love my watches and my Ginault as much as any of them and enjoy the company of the many true enthusiasts who come here to share the enjoyment of our hobby.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

59er said:


> I find that there is no controversy really.
> 
> For me Ginault is a new brand started and run by a small group of enthusiast watchmakers that have chosen to use a popular and practical design that although is nothing particularly new or revolutionary is exactly the sort of watch that I am attracted to.
> 
> ...


Well that's exactly what many of the owners of Ginault watches feel indeed, and includes me. I just want a good watch, faithful to the original design and with top quality. I had several Steinhart but it was the actual slight differences with the original that I didn't like (those straight lugs, the boxy cases, etc).

I think the criticism will stop a little bit, and hopefully we can concentrate on enjoying our watches!


----------



## MX793 (Dec 7, 2017)

Do the no-date models have a "phantom" position on the crown where the date quickset would be, or is it just a two position crown (winding in position 1, time setting in position 2)?


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MX793 said:


> Do the no-date models have a "phantom" position on the crown where the date quickset would be, or is it just a two position crown (winding in position 1, time setting in position 2)?


Hmmm... I don't know as mine has a date. But it should be an easy modification of the lever in the keyless works. Essentially just buy the combiner setting lever from an ETA 280﻿1-2﻿﻿ ﻿non date ﻿﻿﻿and swap it for the 2824 you should have in there. It's not a simple task as you would need to take the stem out, de case the movement, take the hands off, dial off, datewheel off and then replace the lever. But should be easy task for any competent watchsmith.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

All the hoo-hah about Ginault the past couple weeks has moved my needle from "mildly interested" to "must have".

Current problem is deciding between the smurf or the gold sand. The struggle is real.


----------



## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

skyefalcon6 said:


> All the hoo-hah about Ginault the past couple weeks has moved my needle from "mildly interested" to "must have".
> 
> Current problem is deciding between the smurf or the gold sand. The struggle is real.


Hahahahaha. My wife pre-ordered an OR-II date in Smurf for me. I had an OR-I in sand lume. Either would surely look great TBH.

Josh

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

skyefalcon6 said:


> All the hoo-hah about Ginault the past couple weeks has moved my needle from "mildly interested" to "must have".
> 
> Current problem is deciding between the smurf or the gold sand. The struggle is real.


haha i hear you. If you cant decide I'd play it safe and go for smurf (thats what i did)

On the other hand OR's hold thier value well so you could take a chance on GS Lume and sell if you dont like it.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

I only have one watch with smurf lume - the F71 Emperor in brown sunburst. Dial is the green superluminova and bezel is blue bgw9

So 181070LSILN, it is then.


----------



## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

I have OR I in gs. Definitely getting a smurf but can't decide on the bezel. Waiting to see the blue bezel photo.

Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Chillin beside the Aston.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Does the Smurf lume have the same texture as the Gold Sand lume?


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> Does the Smurf lume have the same texture as the Gold Sand lume?


I would say its a little less granular


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

MX793 said:


> Do the no-date models have a "phantom" position on the crown where the date quickset would be, or is it just a two position crown (winding in position 1, time setting in position 2)?


Don't know where the winding position is, but there is one "phantom" position and then the real stop position.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Don't know where the winding position is, but there is one "phantom" position and then the real stop position.


This is the process to get rid of that ghost position, not terribly complicated although you need good tools and some experience: https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/modifying-eta-2824-2-a-763882.html


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> This is the process to get rid of that ghost position, not terribly complicated although you need good tools and some experience: https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/modifying-eta-2824-2-a-763882.html


Thanks. Goos to know.

Would be nice to not have this phantom position, but this does not bother me so much.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

59er said:


> Chillin beside the Aston.


Wait.

I'm confused.

Surely the reason you own a Ginault is because you want a Rolex but are too poor to avoid one, right?


----------



## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)




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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

MX793 said:


> Do the no-date models have a "phantom" position on the crown where the date quickset would be, or is it just a two position crown (winding in position 1, time setting in position 2)?


Mine does not seem to have a phantom position. It goes from winding to all the way out to set the time.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

drttown said:


> Mine does not seem to have a phantom position. It goes from winding to all the way out to set the time.


Same as mine. If its present it isn't noticeable and just pulls out all the way to hand adjustment.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm assuming the new Sellita movement takes care of the phantom issue as well?


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

watchesaresocool said:


> I'm assuming the new Sellita movement takes care of the phantom issue as well?


Well it has the same keyless works as an ETA 2824/2836, so should be no problem to have the setting lever for just two positions (and also remove the datewheel and the gear attached to it).


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## dugan.rec (Dec 7, 2011)

badgerracer said:


> So I have never been a big fan of the cyclops date. Today though I kept looking at pictures of the date and no date OR's and it almost seems like the no date is "missing something" without the cyclops. I have already pre-ordered the no date ORII, but am debating about switching to the date and cyclops version. Maybe it is just the quality of the pictures on the Ginault site making me must after the cyclops.
> 
> The more pre-orders I do I realize I am way too indecisive to order a specific configuration of a watch 3-5 months in advance
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've been having the same debate - love the symmetry of the no-date but occasionally think I want to change to the cyclops. In the end I think I'm sticking with the no-date. Love the gold sand lume, but I think it looks best with that dark blue bezel, I'm actually hoping to pick one of those up as well as the ORII in black bezel smurf lume. We'll see how that plan goes...


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

"Cancun Rover"










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

jarlaxle said:


> Wait.
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> Surely the reason you own a Ginault is because you want a Rolex but are too poor to avoid one, right?


I didn't say it was my Aston


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

59er said:


> I didn't say it was my Aston


Or maybe it's an Aston Martin ...homage?! #blasphemy #bringonthepitchforks #haterswillhate


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Or maybe it's an Aston Martin ...homage?! #blasphemy #bringonthepitchforks #haterswillhate


 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Tyler Armstrong (Sep 17, 2013)

Are there coupon codes currently avaliable?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Tyler Armstrong said:


> Are there coupon codes currently avaliable?


For the Aston Martin?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Tyler Armstrong said:


> Are there coupon codes currently avaliable?


Not for the current models, as far as I know. I emailed John a couple of months ago and they finished all their promos. But if you get in the preorder for the new Ocean Rover II I think they have a better pricing ($1k in total, with the preorder and all the stuff). I'd say email John anyway, as you never know.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Tyler Armstrong said:


> Are there coupon codes currently avaliable?


Preordering basically gets you $500 USD off at the moment. That's a pretty good coupon.


----------



## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Days of bargain basement Ginault pricing are well and truly over. Even used they command excellent prices (approx $900+ for OR1) so that says something. The market speaks.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Another fine day too nice to miss taking yet another pic of the OR.


----------



## carlosimery (May 13, 2019)

Oh ih ohhhhhhhh... yeah!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




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## dugan.rec (Dec 7, 2011)

These pictures are somewhat torturous - makes me want to pick up one of these ORIs and not wait for the ORII... I'll still wait it out, but I can't decide if ogling these pics is a good thing or a bad thing. Everyone has opinions about this situation, and say what you want, these are fine-looking watches, and appear to have very fine craftsmanship. Looking forward to getting one and some firsthand experience.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

dugan.rec said:


> These pictures are somewhat torturous - makes me want to pick up one of these ORIs and not wait for the ORII... I'll still wait it out, but I can't decide if ogling these pics is a good thing or a bad thing. Everyone has opinions about this situation, and say what you want, these are fine-looking watches, and appear to have very fine craftsmanship. Looking forward to getting one and some firsthand experience.


I think there's a waiting time of 4-6 weeks for the current ones anyway, so you might want to wait for the first prototypes of the OR2 and then decide.


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

59er said:


> Another fine day too nice to miss taking yet another pic of the OR.


Is this gold sand or glowing smurf lume?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

That's smurf lume. I really really want gold sand but I don't think it'll look good as smurf for ceramic.


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Thank you very much. Ya I had the same thought...the modernness of the ceramic bezel might clash a little with antique look of the gold sand lume. I am not an expert though, I'm sure most combinations would look good. You could still request the aluminum bezel if you want an OR II with gold sand lume.

I'm fighting the classic date vs. no-date question internally right now. 


Also, sorry for the double post.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

whitetigerblood said:


> Is this gold sand or glowing smurf lume?


Yes it's the Smurf lume, I had the no-date in gold sand and it was beautiful but I just prefer a white (daylight) hand/marker lume so this is my favored watch.


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

59er said:


> Yes it's the Smurf lume, I had the no-date in gold sand and it was beautiful but I just prefer a white (daylight) hand/marker lume so this is my favored watch.


Thank you. What is your take on date vs. no-date based on your experience with both?


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

whitetigerblood said:


> Thank you. What is your take on date vs. no-date based on your experience with both?


Well I like the clean and simple look of the no-date as well as not having to re-set the date every time I switch watches but I use the date function often due to my work and am a big fan of the cyclops the date version ended up being my favorite.

I sold my no-date sand lume version some time ago but probably shouldn't have but at the time I had something else in mind.

So my take on it is there is two things to consider, do you need a date complication and do you like a more vintage look.

For me I actually prefer a white lume although the sand lume is probably the nicest color of all "aged" lume.

Good luck with your decision.


----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)




----------



## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

And a lume shot


----------



## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

skyefalcon6 said:


> All the hoo-hah about Ginault the past couple weeks has moved my needle from "mildly interested" to "must have".
> 
> Current problem is deciding between the smurf or the gold sand. The struggle is real.


I was having the exact same thoughts myself, so I bought one. Pics to follow later.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

59er said:


> Chillin beside the Aston.


Nice shot! 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Sold mine I got a random solicitation for a good price off to a new home


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't get why you would purchase an OR1 when an OR2 is about the same price during pre order and has some awesome upgrades. Really confusing... unless you just can't wait until September.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

watchesaresocool said:


> I don't get why you would purchase an OR1 when an OR2 is about the same price during pre order and has some awesome upgrades. Really confusing... unless you just can't wait until September.


Or unless you want both an aluminium and a ceramic model ;-P


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Or unless you want both an aluminium and a ceramic model ;-P


Exactly what I was thinking because that is what I have done!


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Does anyone know which model the new 60 min fully graduated bezel design is supposed to be a homage of?


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> Or unless you want both an aluminium and a ceramic model ;-P


You can get the Ocean Rover 2.0 with an aluminum bezel if you ask. Now you get the AR coating, upgraded bracelet, new bezel movement and the new authentic sellita movement for the same price as a used ocean rover 1, with your choice of aluminum bezel and lume. Literally no downsides.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

drttown said:


> Exactly what I was thinking because that is what I have done!


I would have pre ordered the 2.0 with the aluminum bezel so you can enjoy the new upgrades on the aluminum for around the same price, but that's just me.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

watchesaresocool said:


> I would have pre ordered the 2.0 with the aluminum bezel so you can enjoy the new upgrades on the aluminum, but that's just me.


I had purchased the ORI awhile ago and have kept it, but did pre order the ceramic ORII.


----------



## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

drttown said:


> I had purchased the ORI awhile ago and have kept it, but did pre order the ceramic ORII.


Ah, well yes of course that's a different situation entirely... totally get that. I just mean, in terms of ever since the pre orders going live, I don't see a reason to buy a used OR1 at all. I thought about buying both myself so that's how I came to this conclusion.


----------



## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

MikeCfromLI said:


> Sold mine I got a random solicitation for a good price off to a new home


I too received a random solicitation requesting to buy my OR but I declined.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

59er said:


> I too received a random solicitation requesting to buy my OR but I declined.


I would probably sell mine for the right price...I would like to find one with the date and cyclops.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

watchesaresocool said:


> Ah, well yes of course that's a different situation entirely... totally get that. I just mean, in terms of ever since the pre orders going live, I don't see a reason to buy a used OR1 at all. I thought about buying both myself so that's how I came to this conclusion.


I completely understand.


----------



## English Gent (Jul 17, 2012)

Edited by mod

Rule 9

No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a Moderator or site Administrators. In general, any posts that involve the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is strictly prohibited.


----------



## English Gent (Jul 17, 2012)

repeat post


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

59er said:


> I too received a random solicitation requesting to buy my OR but I declined.


I've had a few aswell amd I dont even have an OR yet lol.

Seems like all the controversys had a positive effect overall. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

59er said:


> I too received a random solicitation requesting to buy my OR but I declined.


So did I.










Look forward to seeing the actual pictures of the ORII with aluminium and ceramic bezels and see how they compare to each other.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

English Gent said:


> repeat post


EDIT: I see that a mod already deleted that pic; that was fast! You may want to think about deleting that pic as it may get this thread locked. It is a very nice watch but there are no rep's allowed on this forum; I am not trying to be mean or a post policeman but, I would hate to see this get locked.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

drttown said:


> EDIT: I see that a mod already deleted that pic; that was fast! You may want to think about deleting that pic as it may get this thread locked. It is a very nice watch but there are no rep's allowed on this forum; I am not trying to be mean or a post policeman but, I would hate to see this get locked.


Exactly, @English Gent please delete that, it's completely out of place.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Mods already caught it!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> So did I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm he must've solicited everyone . He wanted mine for a ridiculously low price anyway... I can't wait for the OR-II. I keep monitoring for early pics. Where are they?? 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Id also like to see some pics; we are getting closer to the release date.


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> So did I.


Me as well. I politely declined.

Odd that a zero post person is PM'ing everyone with offers.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Proto pics are due late August. But the shipment is still out in late Sept/early October.


----------



## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

watchesaresocool said:


> Proto pics are due late August. But the shipment is still out in late Sept/early October.


I assume you reached out to Ginault and this is what they said? If so that does not bode well for someone as impatient as I am haha.

I know originally for the pre-order they said they would issue a full refund if requested before July 20th. I always assumed that you would have the opportunity to see some proto pics before then, but I guess not. I wonder if they would extend that deadline for those who see prototypes of and aren't sold on it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> I assume you reached out to Ginault and this is what they said? If so that does not bode well for someone as impatient as I am haha.
> 
> I know originally for the pre-order they said they would issue a full refund if requested before July 20th. I always assumed that you would have the opportunity to see some proto pics before then, but I guess not. I wonder if they would extend that deadline for those who see prototypes of and aren't sold on it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm sure that they would issue refunds if not truly sold on it after the 20th... But I doubt that'll happen 

Josh

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

jhinson1 said:


> Hmm he must've solicited everyone . He wanted mine for a ridiculously low price anyway... I can't wait for the OR-II. I keep monitoring for early pics. Where are they??
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Me too. No way I was going to give the dude a 30% discount on used price.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

badgerracer said:


> I assume you reached out to Ginault and this is what they said? If so that does not bode well for someone as impatient as I am haha.
> 
> I know originally for the pre-order they said they would issue a full refund if requested before July 20th. I always assumed that you would have the opportunity to see some proto pics before then, but I guess not. I wonder if they would extend that deadline for those who see prototypes of and aren't sold on it
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah I asked him yesterday. I'm assuming he'd naturally bump up the refund request time since it only seems logical, but I didn't ask that.


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

As promised, pics of my newly acquired Ginny OR...










Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## dugan.rec (Dec 7, 2011)

LifeTrekker said:


> As promised, pics of my newly acquired Ginny OR...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh my that's a beautiful watch...

So I've been torn between date and no date. I personally am not a huge cyclops fan and with the fully indexed ceramic bezel it almost has an SD4k vibe making me consider getting a date with no cyclops. Thoughts on that?

I do love the vintage vibe of the blue aluminum bezel and gold sand lume. Whoever suggested buying two is a bad influence...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

dugan.rec said:


> Oh my that's a beautiful watch...
> 
> So I've been torn between date and no date. I personally am not a huge cyclops fan and with the fully indexed ceramic bezel it almost has an SD4k vibe making me consider getting a date with no cyclops. Thoughts on that?
> 
> I do love the vintage vibe of the blue aluminum bezel and gold sand lume. Whoever suggested buying two is a bad influence...


Well I have the GSLID (vintage lume, blue/gold insert, date + cyclops). And I'm probably getting the black insert, flat sapphire crystal, date version. This way I've got the Submariner look and the Seadweller look. Remember you can always buy other parts and have a watchsmith swap them for you. Except hands for the vintage lume, I haven't found any alternative for those as all "vintage" lume hands are either just plain yellow or even orange, so it has to stay with the original hands (which are still superb).


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Couple more from today...









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

dugan.rec said:


> Oh my that's a beautiful watch...
> 
> So I've been torn between date and no date. I personally am not a huge cyclops fan and with the fully indexed ceramic bezel it almost has an SD4k vibe making me consider getting a date with no cyclops. Thoughts on that?
> 
> I do love the vintage vibe of the blue aluminum bezel and gold sand lume. Whoever suggested buying two is a bad influence...


I'm torn too and the fully indexed bezel is kinda pushing me towards no date because the watch looks more tooly with the extra indices to me. I think if the OR-1 bezel design was used, I would go with the date. My decision changes every couple of days unfortunately.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

whitetigerblood said:


> I'm torn too and the fully indexed bezel is kinda pushing me towards no date because the watch looks more tooly with the extra indices to me. I think if the OR-1 bezel design was used, I would go with the date. My decision changes every couple of days unfortunately.


I also keep going back and forth between no-date, and date, and also can't decide if I want gold sand lume or BGW9

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Trying to help those still doubting...


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Trying to help those still doubting...


Are you getting an OR2?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

watchesaresocool said:


> Are you getting an OR2?


No.

Unless I see the pictures and I change my mind. ;-)


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## longstride (Jan 13, 2011)

Works well with canvas...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

longstride said:


> View attachment 14332593
> 
> 
> Works well with canvas...


Gorgeous combination, nice one!

BTW, John just confirmed the deadline of the 20th of July is extended, so basically if you don't like the prototype you can get your money refunded. Also said the black prototype would be ready in a "month plus" (hmmm... Early September, then?).


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

So today I ended up having to back out of the pre-order to use the funds elsewhere (a big vacation for my wife and I). I have to say that John was very nice and started to process my refund within hours of me first emailing him. I was super impressed and will likely still buy a Ginault sometime in the future. For all the controversy surrounding the brand, the great customer service can’t be denied! 

I look forward to seeing pics once the watches start to arrive in September! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

badgerracer said:


> So today I ended up having to back out of the pre-order to use the funds elsewhere (a big vacation for my wife and I). I have to say that John was very nice and started to process my refund within hours of me first emailing him. I was super impressed and will likely still buy a Ginault sometime in the future. For all the controversy surrounding the brand, the great customer service can't be denied!
> 
> I look forward to seeing pics once the watches start to arrive in September!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can second that as well.

Decided to cancel my pre-order recently. John responded promptly and issued my refund as promised.

Ginault is definitely on top of their customer service!

Looking forward to see those OR II photos soon.

Until then, my OR will do...









Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I was in the same situation, left a deposit the first day and had to ask for a refund a week after due to some unforeseen expenses. I had the money back in my account in less than 24h,really outstanding.

I managed to get the money a month after and I'm back on the preorder, luckyly). Got nothing bad to say about these fellas.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

By the way, talking about versatility...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> By the way, talking about versatility...


Looks awesome on all 3. Whats your wrist size?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> Looks awesome on all 3. Whats your wrist size?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks mate! Really tiny, around 6"1 or something like that. Luckily is quite flat, but 40mm is my limit.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I have a 6.5" wrist and I though I had a small wrist!!! All shots look good on your wrist. I can go up to a 42-43mm(Trident Pro, Squale 30 Atmos), but that is pushing it for my small wrists!


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


>


Perfect color blending.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Took this one awhile back but forgot to post.


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## phatning (Dec 13, 2009)

My OR has a new friend...

Ginault, I'll be waiting for your GMT model!









Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## timefocus (Jul 19, 2019)

I ordered two OR IIs. The first with black ceramic bezel and blue smurf lume. The second with blue ceramic bezel and gold sands lume. The second wasn’t on their list, but John said they would do it. It creates some contrast between the watches, as the second is a gift.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Hope those OR2 pics are coming soon. 
This waiting is too long.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

One watch for each day of the week!


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> One watch for each day of the week!


One Watch to Rule them all? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

By the way, has anyone managed to find a set of Mercedes hands with matching gold sand lume? All I can find is just poor quality yellow lume that loses its shine in just half an hour.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Howdy folks - this arrived today, so quite pleased to be in the club now.

181070GSLN


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

skyefalcon6 said:


> Howdy folks - this arrived today, so quite pleased to be in the club now.
> 
> 181070GSLN
> 
> View attachment 14353293


Lovely watch mate, really beautiful. How's the bracelet by the way? John told me they updated the bracelet and now it only has three fixed links instead of four, so you can resize it to really small wrists (like someone I know very well... me?).


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Lovely watch mate, really beautiful. How's the bracelet by the way? John told me they updated the bracelet and now it only has three fixed links instead of four, so you can resize it to really small wrists (like someone I know very well... me?).


So far so good. Lume is good too:


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

skyefalcon6 said:


> So far so good. Lume is good too:
> 
> View attachment 14354647


Looks good, fellow Houstonian!!!


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

I know it's amongst these 500 some pages somewhere, but could one of you experienced Ginault owners please tell me the differences between the sand luminosity & the blue Lume regarding longevity vs brightness between the two. i.e. this is strong all round or are there trade offs?

Thanks so much!
RD


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Dang it x2


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

skyefalcon6 said:


> So far so good. Lume is good too:
> 
> View attachment 14354647


I'm feeling a little blue today.









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

Riddim Driven said:


> I know it's amongst these 500 some pages somewhere, but could one of you experienced Ginault owners please tell me the differences between the sand luminosity & the blue Lume regarding longevity vs brightness between the two. i.e. this is strong all round or are there trade offs?
> 
> Thanks so much!
> RD


It's been a while since I had either, but I think the gold sand lume was brighter and lasted longer than the smurf. Both were very good though and I'd go with the aesthetic you like the most. 

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I don't have a blue lume version but I can tell you I wear mine at night so I know when my baby needs feeding or is still to soon, and the vintage lume glows the whole night. Bright green the first thirty minutes or so and then goes down to normal for the whole night. Its on par with my Tudor Black Bay.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

trf2271 said:


> It's been a while since I had either, but I think the gold sand lume was brighter and lasted longer than the smurf. Both were very good though and I'd go with the aesthetic you like the most.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





mrmorfo said:


> I don't have a blue lume version but I can tell you I wear mine at night so I know when my baby needs feeding or is still to soon, and the vintage lume glows the whole night. Bright green the first thirty minutes or so and then goes down to normal for the whole night. Its on par with my Tudor Black Bay.


Thank you both very much indeed! I had the 1st blue lume version and it did last the night, but I thought it could have had just a tad more longevity. I don't know if I'll pay-and-go-again, but if so I'm favoring the sand style, but I would want the ceramic bezel. That could be a bit of a clash of the ages. But I see others are in similar dilemmas what with date / no date, domed, flat, cyclops or not. WISsin ain't easy :-d

Thanks again gents!

RD


----------



## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

Smurf or gold sands? Blue bezel or black? Aargh... I think I'm going crazy trying to make a decision here. I know I want a flat crystal...I think.


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> Smurf or gold sands? Blue bezel or black? Aargh... I think I'm going crazy trying to make a decision here. I know I want a flat crystal...I think.


are you going date or no date?


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Well for me there is no perfect model, no matter what I get I always crave for something else.

I bought the original no-date domed crystal with sand lume then also bought the date flat crystal and blue lume but the time came where I needed to cash one in and at the time that one turned out to be the no-date.

I love my 181175LSILN but sure miss the no-date.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

59er said:


> Well for me there is no perfect model, no matter what I get I always crave for something else.
> 
> I bought the original no-date domed crystal with sand lume then also bought the date flat crystal and blue lume but the time came where I needed to cash one in and at the time that one turned out to be the no-date.
> 
> I love my 181175LSILN but sure miss the no-date.


In my case, after many years I've realised I really miss having the date on my watch, as I tend to rely on that quite a lot in my daily routine. In terms of lume, I really like the vintage gold sand, but I must admit I quite like the monochrome look of the pure black/pure white on the blue smurfs versions. That's why I'll probably go for that one on the ORII.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> In my case, after many years I've realised I really miss having the date on my watch, as I tend to rely on that quite a lot in my daily routine. In terms of lume, I really like the vintage gold sand, but I must admit I quite like the monochrome look of the pure black/pure white on the blue smurfs versions. That's why I'll probably go for that one on the ORII.


Yeah I probably average either signing in and out of projects/sites or dating documents a dozen times a day so the date feature is important to me and I agree the contrast of the white/blue lume against that beautiful enameled dial is beautiful to behold.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

No date for me!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> No date for me!


The more I see that tophat crystal, the more I love it. Definitely going for black bezel, white date, tophat crystal on my ORII if possible!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

No date FTW


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## GT27 (Jun 13, 2016)

Gents, I'm not familiar with Ginault but I wanted to say that I just spent a fifth of my life reading that other Ginault thread. How I stumbled upon it, God only knows, but I'm thankful. I couldn't stop reading. 

What a showstopper. All I can say is that I'm speechless. Absolutely fascinating. It had it all. Wild accusations, personal attacks, fraud, legal drama, conspiracy theories, mechanical engineering concepts, racism, sickening hypocrisy, Asian supply chain economics, flat earth arguments, and even it's own personal psychiatrist. The building tension was phenomenal. The likes I haven't witnessed since the first season of Big Little Lies. 

BUT...what a twist ending! Stanley Kubrick would have been proud. That dodgy Dec fella got exposed, turned inside out and had his ass handed to him. Then the gang dived in and ended it like the final scene from Braveheart. Wow. Stunning.

Enjoy your Ginault's with pride gentlemen, for you are legends.


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

I know right. Then again when the ORII arrives, the hoohaas are gonna start again with snobs giving their Almighty self righteous judgement on how it's a fake. But who cares anyway


----------



## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Im going for the date blue smurf lume. Its just a classic look.

Already have a or1 no date sand lume.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

acheongtk said:


> I know right. Then again when the ORII arrives, the hoohaas are gonna start again with snobs giving their Almighty self righteous judgement on how it's a fake. But who cares anyway












I'm sure the sheer quality of the new ORII will outshine the snobs away, though.


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> Im going for the date blue smurf lume. Its just a classic look.
> 
> Already have a or1 no date sand lume.


Nice, really think you have the best of both worlds there.


----------



## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

DutchElite said:


> Im going for the date blue smurf lume. Its just a classic look.
> 
> Already have a or1 no date sand lume.


Nice, really think you have the best of both worlds there.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Its really getting time for those OR2 Pics ! Are they still on track for the september delivery ?


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## Kattywampus (Mar 4, 2018)

With the recent controversy, will Ginault survive?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Kattywampus said:


> With the recent controversy, will Ginault survive?


It's exactly the same controversy that rose when appeared in the scene and yet here we are. Of course they will. They manufacture a flawless product that is actually in high demand.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DutchElite said:


> Its really getting time for those OR2 Pics ! Are they still on track for the september delivery ?


Last email I had from John said they are still on schedule for end of Q3 beginning of Q4, so I guess the delay won't be very bad. Also my bet is pics will be released 2nd half of August as in early July they said a month plus.


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

Kattywampus said:


> With the recent controversy, will Ginault survive?


Prices only went up, lol. I think it was good free advertisement for ginault.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Love how dynamic is the blue bezel:

Is it blue?









Oh hang on, or is it black?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Sorry, double post!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Did you put those Mercedes hands on?



mrmorfo said:


> Love how dynamic is the blue bezel:
> 
> Is it blue?
> 
> ...


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Did you put those Mercedes hands on?


Yes, but I had to relume them myself as I couldn't find any hands with a similar gold colour as the Ginault gold sand. They are still not exactly and its a bit grainy, but I like it as it makes it look like the old vintage 16800 reference


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

I've also emailed John and he actually offered me to get the blue aluminum bezel and I could get the OR2 in 3-4 weeks. They are currently stuck at the ceramic bezel part where there will be delays for the blue bezel 
furthersincee I think many had requested the tone of the color to be changed ( including myself) to a darker hue. I really like the color, vintage and Matt look of the aluminum since I'm getting the gold sand lume. 

I'm not so sure I would get the same vibe about the ceramic bezel since they are known to be pretty shinny. But again the ceramic does give off a more premium feel to it.

Any advice?


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

DutchElite said:


> Prices only went up, lol. I think it was good free advertisement for ginault.


That certainly appears to be the case. Kinda looks like it turned out to have the opposite effect of what was intended by the person or persons that started this whole round of controversy, didn't it?

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> Yes, but I had to relume them myself as I couldn't find any hands with a similar gold colour as the Ginault gold sand. They are still not exactly and its a bit grainy, but I like it as it makes it look like the old vintage 16800 reference


Nicely done!

Are they standard ETA 2824 fitment?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Nicely done!
> 
> Are they standard ETA 2824 fitment?


Thanks mate! Yes, same size:

hourhand: 1.50 mm
minutehand: 0.90 mm
secondhand: 0.25 mm

Looks nice with the black insert too! I also did a very slight polish on the bracelet so it looks like the old vintage Submariner, as they turn slightly shiny after the years. And installed a genuine Rolex Crystal from a 16610LN. Love tinkering with this watch! Next stop: getting better at reluming and upgrading the Mercedes hands.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

No thank you!

I've one of these on its way to me, and my main worry is what if the movement breaks, it's easy to say (and I've read) a standard eta fits in there, but important to know it takes standard eta hands too!

I think I read that Ginault have hands spaced differently than a standard eta/sw200, so hopefully if I ever do need to swap out the movement to an off the shelf caliber that it all works out...

Anyway it's dumb of me to worry about something I haven't even got yet, let alone a fault that hasn't happened!

I can't imagine I'll try and mod it though... things like that are way beyond my skill set!

Looking at photos I can't even see how to take the movement out (which I can manage on a Seiko) 

My one has a spare bezel insert, but I ought to be able to manage that myself

Cheers



mrmorfo said:


> Thanks mate! Yes, same size:
> 
> hourhand: 1.50 mm
> minutehand: 0.90 mm
> ...


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> No thank you!
> 
> I've one of these on its way to me, and my main worry is what if the movement breaks, it's easy to say (and I've read) a standard eta fits in there, but important to know it takes standard eta hands too!
> 
> ...


Yes, the Ginault 7275 uses a H4 cannon pinion whereas normal stock ETA or Sellita comes with H2 if I'm not wrong. You could try to install the hands but I'm not 100% sure if it would work. The thing is that with a H2 cannon pinion there might not be enough clearance between the hands and the dial. Hence the need to swap it for a taller one, H4. But its an easy task for any watchsmith, should not be a problem.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> Yes, the Ginault 7275 uses a H4 cannon pinion whereas normal stock ETA or Sellita comes with H2 if I'm not wrong. You could try to install the hands but I'm not 100% sure if it would work. The thing is that with a H2 cannon pinion there might not be enough clearance between the hands and the dial. Hence the need to swap it for a taller one, H4. But its an easy task for any watchsmith, should not be a problem.


By the way this is another of those things that make the Ocean Rover really amazing. The 7275 (basically an in-house ETA 2824) is slim enough to fit in a Sub-spec case and they put a movement ring spacer which puts the crown at the exact same height as a Submariner with a 3135. And by using a H4 cannon pinion they have also the same height on the hands as a 3135.

These are things that are there and most people don't realise. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say that the OR has a lot more than meets the eye.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Looking at photos I can't even see how to take the movement out (which I can manage on a Seiko)


It's super easy, and again another quality detail from these guys. Instead of using two tabs and screws, which is the normal method most movements are secured to the case, Ginault case has two grooves and two screws in the movement that go into them. Then you rotate the movement to align it properly and unscrew these, which press to the rail inside the case:










To me this is way easier and precise than the tabs and screws.


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sweet Ginny on a NATO for a Tuesday afternoon. 









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Brush diver (Jun 27, 2019)

whitetigerblood said:


> Brush diver said:
> 
> 
> > Smurf or gold sands? Blue bezel or black? Aargh... I think I'm going crazy trying to make a decision here. I know I want a flat crystal...I think.
> ...


Not sure yet but I really need to make up my mind and get the man some money. I'm leaning heavily towards the blue Smurf lume, black dial, black bezel, flat crystal combination. Boring I know but I just kind of feel like I'll get the most use out of that. I do really like the blue bezel with gold sands lume however. I wish my wife would let me buy two LOL.
ETA: no date. There, I made a decision.


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Brush diver said:


> Not sure yet but I really need to make up my mind and get the man some money. I'm leaning heavily towards the blue Smurf lume, black dial, black bezel, flat crystal combination. Boring I know but I just kind of feel like I'll get the most use out of that. I do really like the blue bezel with gold sands lume however. I wish my wife would let me buy two LOL.
> ETA: no date. There, I made a decision.


Nice! I joined a couple days ago and went for the no date, black dial/bezel, blue smurf lume, flat crystal. Good luck with whatever you decide, it took me weeks to finally pull trigger. Getting two would be the only easy (but expensive) solution.


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

Aww, you guys are gonna have me rethinking my preorder. I thought I had enough black dial/black bezel watches including two gilt-dial NTH's after finding LT and my brother enablers in BSHT. Heck, I'm wearing one now. So I went with the no date, blue smurf lume, flat crystal, blue bezel OR II. I'd probably go domed crystal but I want the AR coating. Plus I figured I could always swap the insert.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> It's super easy, and again another quality detail from these guys. Instead of using two tabs and screws, which is the normal method most movements are secured to the case, Ginault case has two grooves and two screws in the movement that go into them. Then you rotate the movement to align it properly and unscrew these, which press to the rail inside the case:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much.

And for your other post explaining the H4 cannon pinion

By all accounts the Ginault attention to detail seems superb.

The only watches I've owned and that I've felt comfortable to take the movement out have been kinda 1. Remove crown 2. prise up movement holder with peg wood (ok I lie, I mean toothpick) 3. Hold watch dial up and the movement falls out.

Re your comment about the H4 cannon pinion and the hands with an ETA swap, I'm assuming you mean the hour hand might interfere with the applied indices on the dial?


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> It's super easy, and again another quality detail from these guys. Instead of using two tabs and screws, which is the normal method most movements are secured to the case, Ginault case has two grooves and two screws in the movement that go into them. Then you rotate the movement to align it properly and unscrew these, which press to the rail inside the case:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you very much.

And for your other post explaining the H4 cannon pinion

By all accounts the Ginault attention to detail seems superb.

The only watches I've owned and that I've felt comfortable to take the movement out have been kinda 1. Remove crown 2. prise up movement holder with peg wood (ok I lie, I mean toothpick) 3. Hold watch dial up and the movement falls out.

Re your comment about the H4 cannon pinion and the hands with an ETA swap, I'm assuming you mean the hour hand might interfere with the applied indices on the dial?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> And for your other post explaining the H4 cannon pinion
> 
> ...


This one is not so different:

1. Remove caseback (you'll probably need a special tool, a sticky ball won't do the trick) 
2. Remove the stem & crown (careful or you'll dislodge the keyless works and then you are in trouble as it's a pain in the ass to put back in place). 
3. Unscrew the retaining screws. Rotate the movement until they're lined up with the two grooves on the case. 
4. Voilà, you have deceased the movement.

On the H4, I'm not 100% sure but I think you could not even fit them as the cannon pinion would sit too low, so the hole in the dial would be above the groove where the hour hand sits. Again, I'm not 100% sure about this, perhaps someone can shine some light on the subject.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> This one is not so different:
> 
> 1. Remove caseback (you'll probably need a special tool, a sticky ball won't do the trick)
> 2. Remove the stem & crown (careful or you'll dislodge the keyless works and then you are in trouble as it's a pain in the ass to put back in place).
> ...


Thanks very much, you're starting to make me want to try it just for the kicks and experience 

Seriously I've no intention of getting in there unless I really have too. I've successfully (and unsuccessfully) managed to regulate movements, I recently got a timing machine so that helps me do that now.

If needed I'd be happy to regulate/correct beat error on the Ginault (thank eff it's not a free sprung balance, I wouldn't touch that!!) but obviously no need to take the movement out for that (although my cheap timing machine seems happier working on uncased movements than cased ones)

My three pronged case back tool has an attachment for Rolex type casebacks, but having opened a parnis (which is similar to the Rolex design) I know how easy it is to slip and scratch compare to more commonly found caseback with holes (eg like Seiko)...

With Ginault swapping to SW200 for the OR2, I wonder if they've changed the dial/spacer thickness or are modifying (or buying already modded) the base calibre from Sellita?

Another silly curiosity question I have (that again I'd never try myself)

How difficult would it be to remove the date click when operating the crown (mine's a no date) so there's no ghost position when pulling the crown out to set the hands?


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

annoying duplicate post thing


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> How difficult would it be to remove the date click when operating the crown (mine's a no date) so there's no ghost position when pulling the crown out to set the hands?


A bit tricky as it requires to access the keyless works, meaning taking off the hands and dial. Some owners report no ghost position, while some others do. If you want to go that route, it was actually explained in a post in this same thread. Go to the top of the thread and check the "search thread" option, search for ghost and you'll find it.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

I didn't read the whole thread, I kind of skipped around, but still took forever! Anyway, I like the Rolex sub look but there's no practical chance I'm going to pay $10k for one (and even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't find one anyway) and then insure it and then worry about it all the time. But I still like the look. I have to say the Ocean Rover looks like a more practical alternative at little more in line with my ...ummm... frugal nature (though if I'm that frugal maybe I should be going for a Phoebus or something). But I appear to have missed all the discounts for the moment. The question is whether it's worth paying $1500 (or more) for one of these or whether I should be spending that on something else.

Note I'm never going to be diving with it! 

I'm inclined on the 181875GSLN unless I wait for the OR II. Is there anything that the owners out there want to say about them that could help me make my decision? Thanks!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> How difficult would it be to remove the date click when operating the crown (mine's a no date) so there's no ghost position when pulling the crown out to set the hands?


A bit tricky as it requires to access the keyless works, meaning taking off the hands and dial. Some owners report no ghost position, while some others do. If you want to go that route, it was actually explained in a post in this same thread. Go to the top of the thread and check the "search thread" option, search for ghost and you'll find it.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> A bit tricky as it requires to access the keyless works, meaning taking off the hands and dial. Some owners report no ghost position, while some others do. If you want to go that route, it was actually explained in a post in this same thread. Go to the top of the thread and check the "search thread" option, search for ghost and you'll find it.


Thanks, I think I found it - swap out a part from a different calibre?

Doubt I'll rush to do that (I mean pay someone to do that), the seller of mine (haven't got it yet) confirms it has a ghost date position (which is a daft term as the date is really there of course!!)

I keep meaning to read this whole thread... but damn 500+ pages !!


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

carbon_dragon said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, I kind of skipped around, but still took forever! Anyway, I like the Rolex sub look but there's no practical chance I'm going to pay $10k for one (and even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't find one anyway) and then insure it and then worry about it all the time. But I still like the look. I have to say the Ocean Rover looks like a more practical alternative at little more in line with my ...ummm... frugal nature (though if I'm that frugal maybe I should be going for a Phoebus or something). But I appear to have missed all the discounts for the moment. The question is whether it's worth paying $1500 (or more) for one of these or whether I should be spending that on something else.
> 
> Note I'm never going to be diving with it!
> 
> I'm inclined on the 181875GSLN unless I wait for the OR II. Is there anything that the owners out there want to say about them that could help me make my decision? Thanks!


The Ocean Rover is absolutely worth the money ! You get alot of quality. I advise you to wait for the OR2. Only a few weeks left.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Thanks, I think I found it - swap out a part from a different calibre?
> 
> Doubt I'll rush to do that (I mean pay someone to do that), the seller of mine (haven't got it yet) confirms it has a ghost date position (which is a daft term as the date is really there of course!!)
> 
> I keep meaning to read this whole thread... but damn 500+ pages !!


I don't think the datewheel is there, just the lever in the keyless that has three positions instead of two.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

carbon_dragon said:


> I didn't read the whole thread, I kind of skipped around, but still took forever! Anyway, I like the Rolex sub look but there's no practical chance I'm going to pay $10k for one (and even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't find one anyway) and then insure it and then worry about it all the time. But I still like the look. I have to say the Ocean Rover looks like a more practical alternative at little more in line with my ...ummm... frugal nature (though if I'm that frugal maybe I should be going for a Phoebus or something). But I appear to have missed all the discounts for the moment. The question is whether it's worth paying $1500 (or more) for one of these or whether I should be spending that on something else.
> 
> Note I'm never going to be diving with it!
> 
> I'm inclined on the 181875GSLN unless I wait for the OR II. Is there anything that the owners out there want to say about them that could help me make my decision? Thanks!


Have preorder discounts ran out for the OR2?


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

watchesaresocool said:


> carbon_dragon said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't read the whole thread, I kind of skipped around, but still took forever! Anyway, I like the Rolex sub look but there's no practical chance I'm going to pay $10k for one (and even if I wanted to, I probably couldn't find one anyway) and then insure it and then worry about it all the time. But I still like the look. I have to say the Ocean Rover looks like a more practical alternative at little more in line with my ...ummm... frugal nature (though if I'm that frugal maybe I should be going for a Phoebus or something). But I appear to have missed all the discounts for the moment. The question is whether it's worth paying $1500 (or more) for one of these or whether I should be spending that on something else.
> ...


I'm interested jn a pre order discount too. Can someone post the link or code?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I would just email them and ask. There aren't any codes that I'm aware of, there was a set of dates and if you preordered within the deadline then you had the discounted price. I think if you do it before seeing the prototype you'll probably be into the discount campaign.

In summary: email John!


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

I'm interested in an ORII and am tempted by the pre-order but notice that it has a stock Sellita movement SW200-1 vs. the modified ETA movement of the OR (the CAL7275). I think I prefer the performance of the 7275 which many owners are reporting to be a COSC movement in practice. 

What are the pros and cons of the SW200-1 vs the CAL7275? I prefer the ceramic bezel (and pre-order discount) of the ORII but not sure if this is worth the "downgrade" of the SW200-1. Unless Ginault is performing similar "modifications" to the base SW200-1 that they also did for the previous OR (the CAL7275), I'm thinking that I would prefer the original OR over the ORII.

Does anyone have any information on this?


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

Reposting here with permission from Ginault:


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

99watches said:


> I'm interested in an ORII and am tempted by the pre-order but notice that it has a stock Sellita movement SW200-1 vs. the modified ETA movement of the OR (the CAL7275). I think I prefer the performance of the 7275 which many owners are reporting to be a COSC movement in practice.
> 
> What are the pros and cons of the SW200-1 vs the CAL7275? I prefer the ceramic bezel (and pre-order discount) of the ORII but not sure if this is worth the "downgrade" of the SW200-1. Unless Ginault is performing similar "modifications" to the base SW200-1 that they also did for the previous OR (the CAL7275), I'm thinking that I would prefer the original OR over the ORII.
> 
> Does anyone have any information on this?


You can still request the CAL7275 on the OR II.

Edit: I thought you could at least


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

That is some awesome customer support there ! 
That it is possible to get the CAL7275 instead of the SW200 was also mentioned in the OR2 release email.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

99watches said:


> I'm interested in an ORII and am tempted by the pre-order but notice that it has a stock Sellita movement SW200-1 vs. the modified ETA movement of the OR (the CAL7275). I think I prefer the performance of the 7275 which many owners are reporting to be a COSC movement in practice.
> 
> What are the pros and cons of the SW200-1 vs the CAL7275? I prefer the ceramic bezel (and pre-order discount) of the ORII but not sure if this is worth the "downgrade" of the SW200-1. Unless Ginault is performing similar "modifications" to the base SW200-1 that they also did for the previous OR (the CAL7275), I'm thinking that I would prefer the original OR over the ORII.
> 
> Does anyone have any information on this?


You can order the ORII with the Ginault Cal. 7275, actually (that's what I'll do)


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> You can order the ORII with the Ginault Cal. 7275, actually (that's what I'll do)


Yeah, I'm going to go with either:
choice #1 - ORII + Cal.7275 + gold sand lume + blue aluminum bezel
choice #2 - ORII + Cal.7275 + white smurf lume + blue ceramic bezel

I really wanted the gold sand lume + blue ceramic bezel but they can't do this combo unfortunately. Now I have to decide whether I should prioritize the ceramic bezel or the gold sand lume...

Also, having issues deciding between flat vs. domed crystal. I love domed crystals but tend to gravitate towards acrylic to preserve the vintage feel of the watch. I've owned watches with sapphire dome and top hat crystals but those have never felt "right" to me.

Anybody have any opinions on Ginault's domed crystals? Will the ORII be a top hat or a true bubble dome? Sorry, I know there are probably some pics in this thread but I'm still wading through the muck from the TC controversy.


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Are most people going with the Cal.7275 over the Sellita?


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/forums...a-sw-200-vs-2824-2-clone-4977829-2.html?amp=1

I read this thread, now I'm leaning towards the SW200-1 movement...


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## Geogarc562 (Aug 15, 2018)

I want to change the domed sapphire on my Ginny to a flat AR coated sapphire crystal. Anyone have any idea how to do that?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

99watches said:


> I'm interested in an ORII and am tempted by the pre-order but notice that it has a stock Sellita movement SW200-1 vs. the modified ETA movement of the OR (the CAL7275). I think I prefer the performance of the 7275 which many owners are reporting to be a COSC movement in practice.
> 
> What are the pros and cons of the SW200-1 vs the CAL7275? I prefer the ceramic bezel (and pre-order discount) of the ORII but not sure if this is worth the "downgrade" of the SW200-1. Unless Ginault is performing similar "modifications" to the base SW200-1 that they also did for the previous OR (the CAL7275), I'm thinking that I would prefer the original OR over the ORII.
> 
> Does anyone have any information on this?


I emailed them and was able to put down a deposit on the ORII. I selected the SW200-1 movement but I asked first what kind of luck they were having regulating them. They said they were a dream to work with, so I'm expecting good things. I didn't have any problems with the 7275 though and in fact I asked about the CURRENT watches initially. I think both movements will be well regulated. At least that is what I'm betting my money on!


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

carbon_dragon said:


> I emailed them and was able to put down a deposit on the ORII. I selected the SW200-1 movement but I asked first what kind of luck they were having regulating them. They said they were a dream to work with, so I'm expecting good things. I didn't have any problems with the 7275 though and in fact I asked about the CURRENT watches initially. I think both movements will be well regulated. At least that is what I'm betting my money on!


Were you able to still get a pre-order discount on the ORII?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

missalaire said:


> Were you able to still get a pre-order discount on the ORII?


Yes. I put down a $400 deposit on the full amount but it was with the discount. It's going to be a while, but Kickstarter has conditioned me against instant gratification so I can wait.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

missalaire said:


> Were you able to still get a pre-order discount on the ORII?


Yes. I put down a $400 deposit on the full amount but it was with the discount. It's going to be a while, but Kickstarter has conditioned me against instant gratification so I can wait.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Love the reflection from the indexes and hands.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Nothing to say so here's another mindless wristie.


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

carbon_dragon said:


> Yes. I put down a $400 deposit on the full amount but it was with the discount. It's going to be a while, but Kickstarter has conditioned me against instant gratification so I can wait.


What configuration did you get and how much was discount? I'm thinking of going in on an ORII myself.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Heard reports of the Sellita 200 of power reserve issue, but cant verify or deny.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

marinemaster said:


> Heard reports of the Sellita 200 of power reserve issue, but cant verify or deny.


Have a slew of SW200 powering all the usual suspects (Eterna, Oris, C.Ward, Glycine, Deep Blue, etc.) with plenty of PR and no other issues. I am careful not to handwind them (and 2824s) anymore than is needed to get them ticking, then strapping them on the wrist to let the rotor do the rest.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

missalaire said:


> What configuration did you get and how much was discount? I'm thinking of going in on an ORII myself.


Date complication, white date wheel and lume. I think it was $400 deposit and $799 on balance. I went back and forth on whether to go for gold sand lume (which I think is nice) but decided to go for white.


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## vhl (Jul 26, 2017)

I resurrected my 2 year old OR and tried Toolwatch for a few days. The app returned +3.2, +2.8 then today 0.0 :-d Must have been a fluke. Will my Forever Tic-Toc pass COSTCO certification?

My OR was running fast (+15), then I demagnetised it and put it away until now. I notice that the watch is fairly accurate when worn all the time.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

That's very impressive for what some would consider a "Chinese ETA clone"

From that conversation John someone posted a few days ago they seem to gettong the same results from the Sellita too.

win win! 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Well, like I've said before, the thing that really made me want to buy an OR (or in this case an ORII) is that they actually regulate the movement. Seiko says ... ummm... well it will be -15/+25 or something depending on the movement, but they never actually take the trouble to look because it would cost them time and money. And this is on a watch that cost $750+. Not that many manufacturers regulate the movement to make it as good as they can make it. Regulating the movement would be a lot cheaper than COSC certification and they can't usually even get that unless they are swiss made right (primarily because the Swiss got tired of competing against the Japanese ... and losing).

Maybe the Chinese (with their ABUNDANT people-power) should start regulating ALL their watches. Sure would annoy the Swiss. My $100 Parnis is actually outperforming my Seiko SARX027 at the moment, though just barely. Just thing what would happen if the Parnis was regulated. Heck they could use the extra QC/burn in time anyway.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

Great looking watch!


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Somebody on the Ginault Owners Facebook group posted a picture of what they claim to be an ORII with an aluminum bezel. I heard somebody mention that the ceramic bezel was what was holding production back, but it is cool to see that everything else is ready on the ORII. 

Also the Ginault Instagram page has posted 2 pics yesterday, so it looks like they are starting to be active again which is always a bonus 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Somebody on the Ginault Owners Facebook group posted a picture of what they claim to be an ORII with an aluminum bezel. I heard somebody mention that the ceramic bezel was what was holding production back, but it is cool to see that everything else is ready on the ORII.
> 
> Also the Ginault Instagram page has posted 2 pics yesterday, so it looks like they are starting to be active again which is always a bonus
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice! screenshot it and post it here if you can. I noticed the 2 posts in 2 days from Ginaults instagram too. Must be gearing up for the OR2 reveal. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Enjoying my OR1 on a handmade leather strap.









Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

LifeTrekker said:


> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Spotted Cow in MN eh?


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## LifeTrekker (Apr 18, 2015)

Premise said:


> Spotted Cow in MN eh?


Yes, but I had to make a run across the border to get it. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

LifeTrekker said:


> Yes, but I had to make a run across the border to get it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


I was in St Paul for training for my job and we brought some over the border for a gift for the guys there that hadn't tried it before.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

My secondhand OR1 arrived yesterday. Sand lume, maxi dial. No date.

Pretty impressed so far...

It’s nearly 2 years old, runs at +3 on my timing machine, but in 28 hours on/off the wrist is actually running at -1 (oh how I wish it was +1)

Mine came with a spare blue/gold bezel insert (which I’ve now fitted) and the black insert.

I tried the 2 piece sand coloured nato, but I’m not a fan

Bracelet is IMO no where near the heft/feel and glidelock operational quality of my 114060, but it’s a great bracelet for a microbrand.

It’s a lot like my Sub in that the bracelet is a complete mother****** to re-fit (time to invest in springbar tweezers)

Dial text is more subdued in real life than photos, but I could still live without most of it.

IMHO it looks great on a timefactors ‘Bond’ nato, as the sand coloured stripes match the lume (close enough) and the thin red stripes match the secondshand 

Difficult to compare it to other watches I own... win some/lose some against my MKii Kingston I think. Not in 6 digit Rolex league (but why should it be at the price)

The memory is a funny thing... but it most reminds me (in terms of fit/finish/feel) of my (long gone) Tudor Hydronaut but I don’t have that watch any more to compare

I actually like the unsigned clasp... 

Based on the hyperbole, I might have had higher expectations of the lume, but I can just about make out the time in the morning (if it’s pitch black ambient light)... that said I’ve mainly been wearing my Sumo the past month and that’s a lume monster that makes even my reissue Turtle look a bit lacklustre, so I probably need to recalibrate my expectations 

My Mum’s in town, and she asked if it was a new watch, I asked what she thought and she said

“It looks like all your other watches”

Yes. Yes it does - no wonder I like it


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Question for those with the watch in person.

I love everything about this watch, but if I had to criticize one thing it's the removal of minute markers for the line of text at the bottom. Ruins the look of the watch a little bit, and makes it harder to set the time during those minutes of the hour.

But maybe that issue goes away in person and it just kind of works.

Thoughts?


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

watchesaresocool said:


> Question for those with the watch in person.
> 
> I love everything about this watch, but if I had to criticize one thing it's the removal of minute markers for the line of text at the bottom. Ruins the look of the watch a little bit, and makes it harder to set the time during those minutes of the hour.
> 
> ...


Agree with all of that... irl my eye tends to go to the 12 end of a dial (ymmv) so I don't really notice, but I just know that one day I'll go to set the time having not worn it, and the minute will be between 25 and 35 (or what ever that text replaces) and it's SO going to p*** me off


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> Agree with all of that... irl my eye tends to go to the 12 end of a dial (ymmv) so I don't really notice, but I just know that one day I'll go to set the time having not worn it, and the minute will be between 25 and 35 (or what ever that text replaces) and it's SO going to p*** me off


Yeah, and not just that, I'm a symmetry guy. Losing minute markers ruins the look artistically, just a bit. I don't mind the four lines of text but sometimes I think this part of the watch will bug me.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Been there, now that you mention it. I mean, trying to set the time between 25 and 35, and had to wait until 36 yep. Slightly annoying but definitely not a deal-breaker for me!


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Pre-Order in for ORII Smurf. Until then, just hanging out with my ORI GSLN.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Just a silly inconsequential update...

It's exactly 48 hours since I set the time and it's -1 (which means it was +/- 0 since yesterday)

I'll happily take that, in fact it's probably time to stop checking it as it's clearly working ok!



adzman808 said:


> My secondhand OR1 arrived yesterday. Sand lume, maxi dial. No date.
> 
> Pretty impressed so far...
> 
> ...


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## Banshee8541 (Aug 15, 2019)

99watches said:


> Reposting here with permission from Ginault:
> 
> View attachment 14376697
> 
> ...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Banshee8541 said:


> 99watches said:
> 
> 
> > Reposting here with permission from Ginault:
> ...


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

I love the idea that Ginault did in putting all the good points of several Rolex models that you can’t get even from Rolex. So basically it just an inspired watch. It feels and looks like the original because people want it to be. But put it on your wrist side by side and you can tell which one is which. The only thing that may legally get Ginault in trouble is if they mark the clasp with any indication that it is their’s due to design patent. Reason why everyone that want this glidelock clasp has to have it sterile. Other that this Ginault Ocean Rover is a watch on its own. Anyone that sees this watch as a Rolex, it is because of Rolex’s extensive marketing and existence.....when I showed it to my son.....first thing he said is “looks like a Rolex”.......then he said oh it’s a “Ginault” and Dad it is pretty. Now he can’t be fooled. 
Now will I buy it? Yes when I get to that budget. For now my $500 gets me a Steinhart that has scratch my itch for a substantial diver watch that gives me a bit of luxurious feeling fully paid and nothing to worry about.
Ginault is next in line.......hopefully by then they will bless us with some GMT line up.
In a watch party the more the merrier.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Been there, now that you mention it. I mean, trying to set the time between 25 and 35, and had to wait until 36 yep. Slightly annoying but definitely not a deal-breaker for me!


Exactly my experience. Would be nice to „correct" this.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> Been there, now that you mention it. I mean, trying to set the time between 25 and 35, and had to wait until 36 yep. Slightly annoying but definitely not a deal-breaker for me!


I guess I've been lucky as in all the time I've owned both my ORs I can never remember having that problem but if I did I would think I just set it to the approximate minute as I really don't run my life to the exact second so a minute or two out will have no consequence..


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

59er said:


> I guess I've been lucky as in all the time I've owned both my ORs I can never remember having that problem but if I did I would think I just set it to the approximate minute as I really don't run my life to the exact second so a minute or two out will have no consequence..


Not that I own a Ginault but have considered it in the past, but this would unfortunately count it out for work duty if I couldn't set it verified accurate at all times to no more than 30 seconds from actual time.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

The ORs are hackable movements, and are regulated by the manufacturer. If you want more accurate, you should be using HAQs. My mom gave my Dad a Bulova Accutron in 1968 because he was a navigator on USAF Bombers (and needed the accuracy). Today, a pretty good choice would be the Bulova Lunar Pilot which is a cool watch, uses the precisionist HAQ (quartz) movement, and even has some moon heritage. But if you don't need that kind of accuracy I would imagine the ORs would be fine. But even normal quartz could, of course, beat just about any mechanical movement, other that maybe the Seiko spring drive since that is actually using a quartz crystal as part of it's mechanical architecture.


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## watch-tomlu (Aug 15, 2019)

I got an Ocean-Rover 181070 and thought I'd post my thoughts. Full disclosure: The folks at Ginault asked me to do this, but I am not receiving any compensation or rebates.

Overall I must say I am extremely pleased and think it represents great value.

Pros:
* Size of the watch is just right (I don't like huge watches)
* The cream colour of the hands is a really nice alternative to pure white.
* Movement is very smooth, and reasonably quiet
* The brace is amazing, maybe the best brace I've owned. The micro-adjustment mechanism works really well.

Cons:
* Too much text on the dial. I could personally do with two fewer lines.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Agree.
But yes too much writing on the dial. Unfortunately everybody does it these days.


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

carbon_dragon said:


> The ORs are hackable movements, and are regulated by the manufacturer. If you want more accurate, you should be using HAQs. My mom gave my Dad a Bulova Accutron in 1968 because he was a navigator on USAF Bombers (and needed the accuracy). Today, a pretty good choice would be the Bulova Lunar Pilot which is a cool watch, uses the precisionist HAQ (quartz) movement, and even has some moon heritage. But if you don't need that kind of accuracy I would imagine the ORs would be fine. But even normal quartz could, of course, beat just about any mechanical movement, other that maybe the Seiko spring drive since that is actually using a quartz crystal as part of it's mechanical architecture.


I'm talking about the lack of hashes between 25-35. I use mechanicals all the time for work duty. The only problem would be if I had to set the time during that time.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

So... 19th and no pics of the prototypes. Must get more patience... please... more... patie... Ugh!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> So... 19th and no pics of the prototypes. Must get more patience... please... more... patie... Ugh!


hahaha I feel your pain bro. This is the first time I've ever had to wait for a watch, it's hard work!

Seriously though how hard can it be to just put 1 finished version of the watch together and take a few snaps?!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Made dinner tonight while Mrs SF works out the kinks of a new school year. Normally Taco night is Tuesday but meet the teacher is tomorrow night so Taco Monday it is.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

As long as if before Xmas...


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## DutchElite (Mar 5, 2019)

marinemaster said:


> As long as if before Xmas...


All i want for Christmassss is OR22222.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Been a week since I got my OR1 (secondhand)

Swapped out the black bezel insert to the blue one it came with

Played around with straps (I’ve now got springbar pliers on order!)

Put it back on the bracelet!

Here’s a quick and dirty iPad pic!


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## jgordonfresh (Jul 24, 2013)

Love this thing! Feels perfect on the wrist.


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## CrunchyGears (Dec 23, 2011)

I would like someone to try and make a rendition in photoshop of the new ORII.. maybe find a picture of the SD4K, crop out the bezel and fit it to the OR with cyclops.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Been a week since I got my OR1 (secondhand)
> 
> Swapped out the black bezel insert to the blue one it came with
> 
> ...


I totally feel you mate. No matter how cool the strap, the bracelet is so good and it fits the watch so well that anything else is subpar.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> I totally feel you mate. No matter how cool the strap, the bracelet is so good and it fits the watch so well that anything else is subpar.


I quite like it on a timefactors bond nato, I even gave the sand coloured strap it came with another go.

Bracelet wins, but sometimes it's good to dress it down a bit... depends where I am.

I've ordered cheapy springbar pliers (which should come in handy, but I'll have to buy branded tips, that's usually how that goes with cheap spring bar tools... IME) and also a generic rolex caseback tool, which I hope to never need!

I'm probably jinxing this...... but I figured out it has a plus / minus 1 sec positional variation between 3h and 9h... one week and three hours since I last set the time... and right now it's running at +1 (and it's never been worse than +2 or -3 all week)

Don't get me wrong... my turtle does something similar... but that's more like +4 on the wrist, -4 off the wrist every day

And mines secondhand and nearly 2 years old.

I'm happy with that (not that plus or minus some seconds really makes or breaks a watch for me)


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

My OR1 has kept great time...I was thinking an explorer version would sure be nice (this is not real, just a steel insert resting on top)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

That looks amazing. I would certainly buy one if Ginault ever plans to release an explorer version. It’s already 1 week before the original date for a pre order cancellation and we still have not seen the OR2. Getting really antsy.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

That looks amazing. I would certainly buy one if Ginault ever plans to release an explorer version. It’s already 1 week before the original date for a pre order cancellation and we still have not seen the OR2. Getting really antsy.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

That looks awesome......I wonder if the bezel can be removed or replaced easily. A GMT version would be perfect.

Yet again the inconsistent flow of activity from Ginault scares me. What if they go "missing in action". What if I send the watch in for service down the road. Altho' I have never had a replica watch but it feels and sounds like that from the stories I've read and heard.....somewhat you're on your own. I am pretty sure there are plenty of watch services but who can we trust with a Ginault?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

MX54LIFE said:


> That looks awesome......I wonder if the bezel can be removed or replaced easily. A GMT version would be perfect.
> 
> Yet again the inconsistent flow of activity from Ginault scares me. What if they go "missing in action". What if I send the watch in for service down the road. Altho' I have never had a replica watch but it feels and sounds like that from the stories I've read and heard.....somewhat you're on your own. I am pretty sure there are plenty of watch services but who can we trust with a Ginault?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


[/QUOTE]

Yeah... I dunno... the fact that the ginault seems to take generic rolex parts (as sold by Cousins, esslinger etc) such as bezel inserts, crown tubes, gaskets, crystals etc I think means that it'll be easier to "keep on the road" than some other microbrands... movement can be swapped out with a eta/sw200 and a relatively easy (for a watch smith) mod with off the shelf h4 sized hand parts

Just my €0.02


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Makes a lot of sense......but just a hypothetical question.....what happens if someone in China makes a Ginault replica and sells it at a quarter of the price?


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

MX54LIFE said:


> Makes a lot of sense......but just a hypothetical question.....what happens if someone in China makes a Ginault replica and sells it at a quarter of the price?


They already do. They even improved it with a silver sweep hand. $144USD.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Lol not even close......you know they can make an exact ginault copy at a way better price......now where will Ginault Ocean Rover be classied if it so happens......an homage of an homage?......


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Hopefully I am wrong as I want Ginault to be successful being an American Watch Maker. But if the reason why we are not seeing the OR II is because they haven’t met the 500 order number then Houston we have a challenge.
You can only saturate a market so much that the ones who wants to be different will separate the herd. I am still patiently waiting with my $1500 to see if the changes is worth the MSRP......don’t mind paying if I get the saying....


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Wouldn't the ORII's Selita movement mean it's more likely to be serviceable anywhere'ish?


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

I sent an email to John to change my order to the blue ceramic bezel. John got back to me with some good and bad news. First the good, prototype photos of the Black bezel will be done at the end of August and are still aiming for the end of Q3 to the beginning of Q4 for delivery. Now the Blue bezel, there will be a delay, Ginault is working with the supplier to get the blue tone exactly the way John wants. So that’s the latest news.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

carbon_dragon said:


> Wouldn't the ORII's Selita movement mean it's more likely to be serviceable anywhere'ish?


Both Selita and OR2824 movements are serviceable in that they who are competent to do so can strip/clean/lube/reassemble them

The potential issue *MIGHT* be if the OR 2824 isn't so much of an exact ETA clone so that all the parts are interchangeable

But yeah, the Selita should have a whole off the shelf parts catalogue behind it so that any decent watch techie can source parts for it


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Double post nonsense meh


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

I commend you guys for ordering even without seeing the prototype. I don’t have that kind of guts....but I am just as excited otherwise. Can’t wait to see the OR2


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)




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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

MX54LIFE said:


> I commend you guys for ordering even without seeing the prototype. I don't have that kind of guts....but I am just as excited otherwise. Can't wait to see the OR2


I ordered on the basis of being able to cancel/refund if the prototype isnt what I expected, which technically it should be as the only visual change is the ceramic bezel.

I'm excited too I just wish they'd be more accurate with timescales. We're approaching the end of Q4 (shipping deadline) and still no updates.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> I ordered on the basis of being able to cancel/refund if the prototype isnt what I expected, which technically it should be as the only visual change is the ceramic bezel.
> 
> I'm excited too I just wish they'd be more accurate with timescales. We're approaching the end of Q4 (shipping deadline) and still no updates.


If it pushes back into Q1, factor in chinese new year delay.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> I ordered on the basis of being able to cancel/refund if the prototype isnt what I expected, which technically it should be as the only visual change is the ceramic bezel.
> 
> I'm excited too I just wish they'd be more accurate with timescales. We're approaching the end of Q4 (shipping deadline) and still no updates.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I have been on the pre-orders for a few watches, and they always seem to go long. I am on the pre-order for the Monta Atlas and the original August release date has now been pushed to mid-September. Which I fully expect to mean late September/early October

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> If it pushes back into Q1, factor in chinese new year delay.


Fair point but if that's the case it would be nice to hear that from John in advance so we can plan accordingly.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

From what I was told it all comes down to numbers......Ginault OR2 production goal is 500 pcs for the 1st phase......that is half a million $$$$$$ worth......that is more than enough to get things moving granted they hit the projection. I hope they did. Ginault is definitely a contender among Swiss Divers.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Also Ginault should have continued producing LE models in small quantity to oil their best seller which is the Ocean Rover. Like they did with their 185066 model. A GMT would be a hit seller too. Too many dial styles they can slap on that perfect case and bracelet combo. Just saying....


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> They already do. They even improved it with a silver sweep hand. $144USD.


First glance at that dial, the indices.....just horrendous. The gaps in between the lugs? and this is not even a 5 digit case........

You really pay for what you are getting. Many members here, including myself have tried sourcing on eBay, aliexpress and so on for Rolex alternative parts like the bracelet, insert ect, while they look similar, the quality and tolerances are just way off. There is really no alternatives (in terms of quality) to what Ginault is offering.

Many of us owned different Sub homages, like Steinhart, NTH and such, and when you move from those to a Rolex Sub, you go ah! That's why Rolex is worth the 9K price tag. But when you move from an Ocean Rover to a Rolex Sub, you really began to wonder why the 9K price tag. stated over and over again by Rolex Sub owners.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Fair point but if that's the case it would be nice to hear that from John in advance so we can plan accordingly.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


word of advice mate, shoot an email to John and get the information directly from the horse's mouth. A lot of information here are placed both intentionally and unintentionally to cause confusion from different angles if you know what I mean. and some always here taking a stab and generating misleading information. Be aware.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

MX54LIFE said:


> Hopefully I am wrong as I want Ginault to be successful being an American Watch Maker. But if the reason why we are not seeing the OR II is because they haven't met the 500 order number then Houston we have a challenge.
> You can only saturate a market so much that the ones who wants to be different will separate the herd. I am still patiently waiting with my $1500 to see if the changes is worth the MSRP......don't mind paying if I get the saying....


Does this mean you pre-order the OR2 for $1500?


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

There are replicas out there that you will need to put under macro lens to point out some differences. Mind you they also command some $$$......like $600+
I have seen one up close and it will put Ginault to shame for asking over $1000.
Now a days it is scary to by watches like the Rolex Submariner if you are not familiar with the source and are not keen about its original characteristics.....you will be deceived. They even fake receipts lol.
Which brings me back to ask what if China starts selling replica Ginault how would we know?


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

MX54LIFE said:


> There are replicas out there that you will need to put under macro lens to point out some differences. Mind you they also command some $$$......like $600+
> I have seen one up close and it will put Ginault to shame for asking over $1000.
> Now a days it is scary to by watches like the Rolex Submariner if you are not familiar with the source and are not keen about its original characteristics.....you will be deceived. They even fake receipts lol.
> Which brings me back to ask what if China starts selling replica Ginault how would we know?


There are plenty and I mean plenty of people on the dark side who can spot these so-called super high-end scary replica watches from a foot away (okay i admit this is an exaggeration LOL). Point is they are still junk if you know what to look for which is why the purist on the dark side still go for Frankens utilizing gen parts to mask the hardest things to replicate.

All these boo-hoo about how replica is so close to gen and saying the Chinese are already there, just shows their knowledge and ability to identify the differences lack adroitness.

So, back to the original question, you paid $1500 for you OR2 pre-order?


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

DanBYU said:


> There are plenty and I mean plenty of people on the dark side who can spot these so-called super high-end scary replica watches from a foot away (okay i admist this is an exageration LOL). Point is they are still junk if you know what to look for which is why the purist on the darkside still go for Franken's utilizing gen parts to mask the hardest things to replicate.
> 
> All these boo-hoo about how replica is so close to gen and saying the Chinese are already there, just shows their knowledge and ability to identify the differences lack adroitness.
> 
> So, back to the original question, you paid $1500 for you OR2 pre-order?


Very amusing and ironic post....reps and a rep.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

DanBYU said:


> There are plenty and I mean plenty of people on the dark side who can spot these so-called super high-end scary replica watches from a foot away (okay i admist this is an exageration LOL). Point is they are still junk if you know what to look for which is why the purist on the darkside still go for Franken's utilizing gen parts to mask the hardest things to replicate.
> 
> All these boo-hoo about how replica is so close to gen and saying the Chinese are already there, just shows their knowledge and ability to identify the differences lack adroitness.
> 
> So, back to the original question, you paid $1500 for you OR2 pre-order?


Very amusing and ironic post....reps and a homage by a rep.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

yankeexpress said:


> Very amusing and ironic post....reps and a homage by a rep.


quality is quality, just can't argue with that.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

It will be hard press to call out a well made replica that I saw unless you put an original of the same model side by side under a macro lens. Yes I am by no means a pro but what I saw was an impressive copy. Just look at the Ginault’s glidelock bracelet and the case......it is a perfect mimic. You put an original dial in it? I can only imagine....
Anyways it is still the best homage out there for Rolex Submariner not a replacement.
But if Ginault starts selling the OR in the thousands.......I bet that a perfect copy of this will surface at a cheaper price.....
Now the question would be is will it still command and retain its value like the real sub?
No I have not join the pre order because I want to see the OR2 rendition in real pics. Will I pay $1500 may be not.....somebody will always want something new so a good use one will always be available.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I love the bracelet,

But i like this raf strap on it too!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

MX54LIFE said:


> Just look at the Ginault's glidelock bracelet and the case......it is a perfect mimic.


It might look and function the same, but in terms of feel (eg wobble, force required to unlatch/re-latch the sliding part) the Rolex one is so much better you could tell the difference blindfolded, at least that's true comparing my OR to my SubC which isn't the world's largest sample size granted..



MX54LIFE said:


> Anyways it is still the best homage out there for Rolex Submariner not a replacement.


Not really... it's more of a pastiche than a homage... 5 digit case, 6 digit bracelet, maxi dial with applied markers but with vintage looking lume colour (on mine anyway, I know white markers are available), 1970s milsub sword hands and a yachtmaster secondshand!

The Steinhart/Davosa/Tisell/etc try a lot harder to mimic one single model of watch

The irony IMO is that if Rolex released a watch like the OR (with a return to the thinner lugs and with sword hands as a kinda reissue milsub) then folk would be wetting themselves, and the waiting list would be years!



MX54LIFE said:


> But if Ginault starts selling the OR in the thousands.......I bet that a perfect copy of this will surface at a cheaper price.....


Highly likely, there's homage Seiko Sumos and fake Seiko 5s!



MX54LIFE said:


> Now the question would be is will it still command and retain its value like the real sub?


No. The OR already goes second hand for about 30-50% under retail. Subs never do that!



MX54LIFE said:


> No I have not join the pre order because I want to see the OR2 rendition in real pics. Will I pay $1500 may be not.....somebody will always want something new so a good use one will always be available.


Yes, not only is it best to wait to see the irl pics, but also to see if there's any early production problems and to get a sense of what the community thinks of the watch. Aaaah watches... we all want them NOW, but it always pays to be patient

I've owned a few homage watches over the years, and the OR is definitely one of the better built ones (it's the priciest too at full retail of all the ones I've owned) the attraction for me (OMMV) was the pastiche styling, the quality bracelet and the rampant availability of parts such as gaskets/crystals/bezel inserts etc. This to me, gives the OR a strong position in my small collection, as it's quality enough to really appreciate while being cheap enough and serviceable enough to wear with a relative degree of impunity...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DanBYU said:


> There are plenty and I mean plenty of people on the dark side who can spot these so-called super high-end scary replica watches from a foot away (okay i admit this is an exaggeration LOL). Point is they are still junk if you know what to look for which is why the purist on the dark side still go for Frankens utilizing gen parts to mask the hardest things to replicate./QUOTE]
> 
> The thing is that Ginault puts these toy watches to shame as they have nothing to do in terms of finish, brushing, accuracy, etc. Try to find four lugs with the same exact size in any of these "high end" fakes, or dials without misaligned markers, etc. Even the glidelock clones they have are crap compared to Ginault's. And for less than the price of two of those you can get a 2nd hand Ginault which should satisfy your cravings for a Submariner without having to either spend €8,000 or lying to yourself by wearing a fake


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Here's my Gina. Or is it Ginnie?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> It might look and function the same, but in terms of feel (eg wobble, force required to unlatch/re-latch the sliding part) the Rolex one is so much better you could tell the difference blindfolded, at least that's true comparing my OR to my SubC which isn't the world's largest sample size granted..
> ...


I'm not the biggest fan of bracelets in general, I had one on my old Seiko 6139 and I have one on the Citizen Nighthawk. Given that I've never worn a Rolex, I suspect it will feel like the best bracelet I've ever worn when I get the ORII. The Rolex might be better but I'm not paying Rolex above list prices or playing Rolex games to get one. Plus all the bracelets that come on the other dive watches typically do not have glowing words about how good their bracelets are.

It may not be as good a bracelet as the real Rolex bracelet, but it might be the next best thing and that is good enough for me.


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## timefocus (Jul 19, 2019)

99watches said:


> Yeah, I'm going to go with either:
> choice #1 - ORII + Cal.7275 + gold sand lume + blue aluminum bezel
> choice #2 - ORII + Cal.7275 + white smurf lume + blue ceramic bezel
> 
> ...


My order is for Gold Sand Lume, Blue Ceramic Bezel, Date, and SW-200. Placed it weeks ago.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

carbon_dragon said:


> I'm not the biggest fan of bracelets in general, I had one on my old Seiko 6139 and I have one on the Citizen Nighthawk. Given that I've never worn a Rolex, I suspect it will feel like the best bracelet I've ever worn when I get the ORII. The Rolex might be better but I'm not paying Rolex above list prices or playing Rolex games to get one. Plus all the bracelets that come on the other dive watches typically do not have glowing words about how good their bracelets are.
> 
> It may not be as good a bracelet as the real Rolex bracelet, but it might be the next best thing and that is good enough for me.


I don't think you'll be disappointed with the bracelet

I had a Parnis 'DSSD' a while back, that had a reasonable bracelet with glidelock (or whatever it's called on the corresponding Rolex model, it works differently to the sub version) the Ginault one is better made in that you could almost pull the links apart by hand on the Parnis (it was like seiko 5 money to be fair)

I bought my Sub at a time when you saw one in the store window, went inside.. tried to haggle (I got 5%), paid and walked out with the complete set including warranty card... a lot's changed in 7 years.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> I bought my Sub at a time when you saw one in the store window, went inside.. tried to haggle (I got 5%), paid and walked out with the complete set including warranty card... a lot's changed in 7 years.


This is how it should be.

We all have to work hard to earn and save our money but something is amiss when we have to work hard to spend it.

I won't even wait in a long line to get a coffee let alone beg to spend 10 grand on a wristwatch.


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## Randy9999 (Sep 6, 2010)

skyefalcon6 said:


> Here's my Gina. Or is it Ginnie?


If you live in Virginia, it could be your Va-Ginnie!


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## butterflyer (Jul 17, 2019)

In case this is useful,

If you had to install an ETA 2824-2 in an Ocean Rover:
I believe these are the parts you would need to swap into an ETA 2824-2 to convert it from the H2 to the H4 cannon pinion height:
-Cannon Pinion With Drive Wheel, Height 2.70mm (ETA2500242H270)
-Fourth Wheel Centre Seconds, Height 5.55mm (ETA2801227H555)
-Hour Wheel, Height 1.76mm (ETA2600255H176)

Parts are available from Cousins UK. (I have no affiliation. I'm also no expert.)


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

butterflyer said:


> In case this is useful,
> 
> If you had to install an ETA 2824-2 in an Ocean Rover:
> I believe these are the parts you would need to swap into an ETA 2824-2 to convert it from the H2 to the H4 cannon pinion height:
> ...


Yep available for under $30 but you need to know what you are doing or damage may occur..........................ask me how I know


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I’m no expert (as i’m about to demonstrate) but if there’s a need to swap out a Ginault movement, then perhaps a 2836 is a better donor as iirc it comes with h4 pinions as standard (i guess the crunch will be if it shares the stem height with a 2824)


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> I'm no expert (as i'm about to demonstrate) but if there's a need to swap out a Ginault movement, then perhaps a 2836 is a better donor as iirc it comes with h4 pinions as standard (i guess the crunch will be if it shares the stem height with a 2824)


That's the problem, the 2824 is thinner because it doesn't have the day module and thus the crown sits in a different position. You could put a 2836 in a Ginault case, but you wouldn't be able to insert the crown & stem back in...


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

You never know what is going to happen right? Bulova has a long history and still exists ... sort of. But you could have bought an Accu Swiss watch fairly recently but now that Citizen owns them, they have forced Bulova to abandon nearly everything but their quartz movements. Now what? Do they intend to continue to repair them? Maybe or maybe not, and if so, for how long? It may seem impossible, but maybe Ginault will outlive Rolex. Probably not likely but trying to maintain a watch that has lost its company is a problem that can happen to any watch, some are just more likely than others. 

I can no longer maintain my Contax RTS cameras ... no-one can. Even repairers who know how to repair them can't get the parts. On the other hand, I can still get my Leica IIIf repaired ... no problem! Just did it.The world is an annoyingly unpredictable place.


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2019)

Question on the Ginault size, guys.

I like bigger watches. Typically 41.5mm-42mm is the sweet spot but my minimum is 40mm.

I heard the Ginault wears smaller than the 40mm sizing would suggest which while some people seem to find as a positive, I do not.

Is it true though? When I see the Ginault vs Rolex ceramic sub comparison videos, the Ginault does in fact look a lot smaller.

However when I see the Ginault vs 5 digit sub comparison videos, they look to be the exact same dimensions.

So this is really 5 digit sub to 6 digit sub sizing question as well.

Does the 6 digit sub actually have a bigger face dimension (by face i mean dial + bezel) over the 5 digit subs and Ginault or is it just due to the ridiculously fat lugs it has to make it seem so?

Maybe it is because of the ceramic bezel? The ceramic bezel seems larger in the 6 digit sub but maybe it's just perception due to different material?

I don't know. 

Curious for responses!


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

carbon_dragon said:


> You never know what is going to happen right? Bulova has a long history and still exists ... sort of. But you could have bought an Accu Swiss watch fairly recently but now that Citizen owns them, they have forced Bulova to abandon nearly everything but their quartz movements. Now what? Do they intend to continue to repair them? Maybe or maybe not, and if so, for how long? It may seem impossible, but maybe Ginault will outlive Rolex. Probably not likely but trying to maintain a watch that has lost its company is a problem that can happen to any watch, some are just more likely than others.
> 
> I can no longer maintain my Contax RTS cameras ... no-one can. Even repairers who know how to repair them can't get the parts. On the other hand, I can still get my Leica IIIf repaired ... no problem! Just did it.The world is an annoyingly unpredictable place.


That is a very good point, but at the end of the day the reason the topic of long term serviceability is talked about with micro brands is probabilities. Is there a chance Ginault will outlive Rolex? Yes, but the probability is high. Before Citizen bought Bulova were people talking about long term serviceability? No, because the probability seemed high at the time they would be available to service all watches for the long term. (I assume, I got into watches fairly recently, so i don't know the talk of the time).

Right now it seems like there are hundreds of micro brands making watches. Chances are high that a lot of them won't be around in 10 years time, but also that some of them will. Which side will Ginault be on? Hard to say. It seems they have built a solid reputation for building a high quality product and a reasonable price. At least reasonable to enough people to keep them going. Of course there is the seemingly never ending controversy surrounding the brand. Of course the saying goes there is no such thing as bad publicity.

If I were a betting man I would say I think Ginault will outlive a lot of other micro brands, but I don't know. Whenever a new global recession hits and people don't spend as much on unnecessary purchases like $1000+ watches, we'll see who comes out still standing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

I also wonder how many more production runs does the OR have before the online buyers gets saturated. Ginault needs other offerings like a GMT for instance. A different case size would also be nice. They need to solidify their business ground work. Publicity is good but they need to quench the thirst and cultivate cravings. At this point their price value is being compared to the $500 and $2000 watches. The problem is if the $500 ones catches with Ginault.....
Let’s hope that they have a savy business plan. It is not just about how well you can make a watch. It is also how well you can affect people’s perception. After OR2 it is not just about standing up against the Rolex Sub and the rest of the Sub divers alike but also becoming the Ginault Brand. Without this I am afraid that this diver may not make it back to the surface.....


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

axinnon said:


> Question on the Ginault size, guys.
> 
> I like bigger watches. Typically 41.5mm-42mm is the sweet spot but my minimum is 40mm.
> 
> ...


It's the case, the 6 digits sub case is called also Maxi Case and has fatter lugs, which give it a more square look. The crown guards are bigger, as well as the hands and dial dots. See below:










The Ginault has the smaller profile case, but maxi dial markers.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

MX54LIFE said:


> I also wonder how many more production runs does the OR have before the online buyers gets saturated. Ginault needs other offerings like a GMT for instance. A different case size would also be nice. They need to solidify their business ground work. Publicity is good but they need to quench the thirst and cultivate cravings. At this point their price value is being compared to the $500 and $2000 watches. The problem is if the $500 ones catches with Ginault.....
> Let's hope that they have a savy business plan. It is not just about how well you can make a watch. It is also how well you can affect people's perception. After OR2 it is not just about standing up against the Rolex Sub and the rest of the Sub divers alike but also becoming the Ginault Brand. Without this I am afraid that this diver may not make it back to the surface.....


lol, 500 dollar watches won't catch up to Ginault for a very long time.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Is it true that Ginault is selling the OR2 with SW200-1 but still claiming it's "Hand Built in America"?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

MX54LIFE said:


> I also wonder how many more production runs does the OR have before the online buyers gets saturated. Ginault needs other offerings like a GMT for instance. A different case size would also be nice. They need to solidify their business ground work. Publicity is good but they need to quench the thirst and cultivate cravings. At this point their price value is being compared to the $500 and $2000 watches. The problem is if the $500 ones catches with Ginault.....
> Let's hope that they have a savy business plan. It is not just about how well you can make a watch. It is also how well you can affect people's perception. After OR2 it is not just about standing up against the Rolex Sub and the rest of the Sub divers alike but also becoming the Ginault Brand. Without this I am afraid that this diver may not make it back to the surface.....


Rumors are this is the last OR. They have hinted that after that, they're going to do something different (presumably some other type of watch). I don't know what, maybe something similar, or maybe not. But this might well be the last Ocean Rover production run (there's a stage 1 and 2 though, with the first coming out sometime in the next month or two I think and the second one a bit after that). And one would hope that after that, they'd still be doing repairs. The new movement is the Selita so one would also presume that if Ginault is not around, Selitas will be easier (maybe not easy but easier) to get repaired.

I'm not sure anyone but Ginault really knows what will happen, but that is partly why I wanted to order mine. I hope it comes sooner rather than later.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I don't know about 5 digit subs, but 6 digit ones are actually 41mm across the bezel (it might me 40.9 or something) despite the specs saying 40mm



axinnon said:


> Question on the Ginault size, guys.
> 
> I like bigger watches. Typically 41.5mm-42mm is the sweet spot but my minimum is 40mm.
> 
> ...


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Citizen V said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Is it true that Ginault is selling the OR2 with SW200-1 but still claiming it's "Hand Built in America"?


Lets not get into another "false claims" thread.

Harley Davidson and Chevrolet have been outsourcing components for decades so are you going to call them out for not being made in the USA?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Is it true that Ginault is selling the OR2 with SW200-1 but still claiming it's "Hand Built in America"?


You're wrong so I'll correct you

Ginault have never claimed the SW200 as their own.

They have their own movement (an ETA clone) with parts that come from china and Switzerland that they assemble and regulate in house hence the term "hand built in America"

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

59er said:


> Lets not get into another "false claims" thread.
> 
> Harley Davidson and Chevrolet have been outsourcing components for decades so are you going to call them out for not being made in the USA?


The FTC is clear on what counts qualifies as Made in USA. I recommend reading this article because you should be able immediately tell Ginault would not be complying with the regulation if they labeled watches with Sellita movements "Hand Built in America."

If you don't want to read it (like the last person I debated this with), I'll present you with 2 actual cases: Niall and Weiss Watch Company. Both were contacted by the FTC because they violated the Made in USA standard requirements:

- Niall imported Swiss movements while they manufactured the rest of the watch components and assembled the watch in the US. The FTC ruled this did not meet an the requirements unqualified Made in USA claim, and Niall had to take action and correct their labeling to mention it contain Swiss parts (i.e. qualified claim).

- Weiss also manufactured and assembled the majority of their watch in the US. They took it a step farther than Niall did, and originally imported an ETA 6497 in parts, hand finished and assembled in Los Angeles. Still, the FTC also contacted them and they had to make similar revisions to their labeling and marketing.
EDIT: I fixed the links!

Why discuss what Harley Davidson or Chevy do when there are precedents set in the last 4 years for watch companies?



Mr Auto said:


> You're wrong so I'll correct you
> 
> Ginault have never claimed the SW200 as their own.
> 
> ...


Then why do their renders for Ocean Rover 2 still state "Hand Built in America"?

Moreover, if you want to talk about their 7275, the fact that they import key parts would still disqualify them from claiming "Hand Built in America". See the Weiss case above.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> The FTC is clear on what counts qualifies as Made in USA. I recommend reading this article because you should be able immediately tell Ginault would not be complying with the regulation if they labeled watches with Sellita movements "Hand Built in America."
> 
> If you don't want to read it (like the last person I debate this with), I'll present you with 2 actual cases: Niall and Weiss Watch Company. Both were contacted by the FTC because they violated the Made in USA standards:
> 
> ...


1. The renders are exactly that... renders! nothing official has been released yet.

2. There's a difference between hand-built im america & Made in USA. There's strict requirements for the latter which the cases mentioned above are referring to.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> 1. The renders are exactly that... renders! nothing official has been released yet.


Well let's see. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it's going to be on the dial.



Mr Auto said:


> 2. There's a difference between hand-built im america & Made in USA. There's strict requirements for the latter which the cases mentioned above are referring to.


Then you didn't read the actual letters. In the Niall case, that's my fault since during my editing, the format was messed up. Let me copy/paste the relevant sentence:



> As discussed, unqualified "Made in USA" or "Built in USA" claims likely suggest to consumers that products are "all or virtually all" made in the United States.


FTC has clearly stated that Built in USA (or Built in Detroit in Shinola's case) is the equivalent to Made in USA, so "Hand Built in America" definitely is as well. If you're still not convinced, read the FTC's article I linked on this regulation:



> *A Made in USA claim can be express or implied.*
> 
> Examples of express claims: Made in USA. "Our products are American-made." "USA."


"Hand Built in America" is clearly an express claim.

The only other type of claim is a qualified claim, but that would be something like "Hand Built in America with Swiss and Chinese parts" which Ginault does not do.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Here we go again.

We all like friendly debate between watch enthusiasts but some guys are clearly hostile to Ginault in particular so I don't consider then enthusiasts at all.

With regards the latest concern I can only refer to once when visiting a brothel the young lady attending to me claimed that she was a virgin, of course I didn't believe her but it still didn't lessen the service that she provided nor the enjoyment I experienced, much like my watches.

Some folk just seem to enjoy looking for stuff to worry about I guess.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

watchesaresocool said:


> lol, 500 dollar watches won't catch up to Ginault for a very long time.


I don't even think the $600-$700 dollar ones come anywhere close in terms of quality and craftsmanship. Have read so many times that people who own both the Sub (either 5 or 6 digit version) and the Rover, think the Rover is on par with their Subs and no other sub homages out there can be rated the same.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> It's the case, the 6 digits sub case is called also Maxi Case and has fatter lugs, which give it a more square look. The crown guards are bigger, as well as the hands and dial dots. See below:
> 
> 
> 
> ...











I decided to Photoshop the case away, and the 6 digit sub still seems quite a bit bigger. The bezel seems 1-2mm bigger which I think is where the added size comes from.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

axinnon said:


> View attachment 14422059
> 
> 
> I decided to Photoshop the case away, and the 6 digit sub still seems quite a bit bigger. The bezel seems 1-2mm bigger which I think is where the added size comes from.


In case you missed this,



adzman808 said:


> I don't know about 5 digit subs, but 6 digit ones are actually 41mm across the bezel (it might me 40.9 or something) despite the specs saying 40mm


The 6 digit Sub's midcase although a 40mm with the 6 digit bezel assembly added will look bigger, the dial, however, remains the same. (except the difference between the indices)

Note, the bezel assembly's sizes between the 5 digit and the 6 digit Subs are not the same. So you will not be able to mount a ceramic insert from the 6 digit Sub to the 5 digit Sub.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

DanBYU said:


> In case you missed this,
> 
> The 6 digit Sub's midcase although a 40mm with the 6 digit bezel assembly added will look bigger, the dial, however, remains the same. (except the difference between the indices)
> 
> Note, the bezel assembly's sizes between the 5 digit and the 6 digit Subs are not the same. So you will not be able to mount a ceramic insert from the 6 digit Sub to the 5 digit Sub.


Oh I see gotcha. So in reality, there is a difference, and the bezel makes it 1mm bigger.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2019)

After some research I found videos that measure both the 6 digit sub and the Ginault. 6 digit sub was hovering 40.8 and 40.9mm. Ginault is 39.5mm

so ~1.5mm to ~1.6mm difference. That's pretty big. But now it all makes sense.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

<joke>to be fair to Ginault if it said _partially hand assembled in America from various components and sub-assemblies sourced from a global supply chain_ then they'd no room for ANY minute indices on the dial at all and the watch would be about 62mm, so I guess we dodged a bullet there</joke>


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> Well let's see. If I were a betting man, I'd bet it's going to be on the dial.
> 
> Then you didn't read the actual letters. In the Niall case, that's my fault since during my editing, the format was messed up. Let me copy/paste the relevant sentence:
> 
> ...


You really expect them to have "Hand Built in America with Swiss and Chinese parts" written on the dial (or anywhere for that matter)?

maybe it is an "express claim" maybe its not who cares! FTC cared enough it wouldn't be on the dial

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> <joke>to be fair to Ginault if it said _partially hand assembled in America from various components and sub-assemblies sourced from a global supply chain_ then they'd no room for ANY minute indices on the dial at all and the watch would be about 62mm, so I guess we dodged a bullet there</joke>


haha exactly ^^^

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> maybe it is an "express claim" maybe its not who cares! FTC cared enough it wouldn't be on the dial
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


IIRC....

Earlier in this thread it transpired that the FTC had them remove the text that said MADE IN THE USA from the case back [strike]because it was some of the most gnarly POS low quality stamped text in the history of horology[/strike] erm because it's not legally made in the USA.

One can only *assume* had the FTC (no affiliation, aware of their work, I live in Europe) had a problem with it they would also have had them remove the dial text too....


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> You really expect them to have "Hand Built in America with Swiss and Chinese parts" written on the dial (or anywhere for that matter)?
> 
> maybe it is an "express claim" maybe its not who cares! FTC cared enough it wouldn't be on the dial
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


No, that's a ridiculous assumption to think I'd expect that and you know it. All you have to do is refer to Weiss, Niall or even Shinola to know what corrections Ginault would have to do.

FTC doesn't babysit companies, at least not companies this small. However, if complaints are filed, then they investigate like in the case of Weiss and Niall. From what I can see, Weiss lasted 2 years before being approached by the FTC. Niall maybe a 1 year.



adzman808 said:


> IIRC....
> 
> Earlier in this thread it transpired that the FTC had them remove the text that said MADE IN THE USA from the case back [strike]because it was some of the most gnarly POS low quality stamped text in the history of horology[/strike] erm because it's not legally made in the USA.
> 
> One can only *assume* had the FTC (no affiliation, aware of their work, I live in Europe) had a problem with it they would also have had them remove the dial text too....


That's actually an example of a "false claim" that 59er would like to keep out of the thread. The FTC publishes letters and statements from companies that have cases against them. You can find one for each of the brands I listed on the FTC website:

Nial = https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/closing-letters/niall-luxury-goods-llc
Weiss = https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/closing-letters/weiss-watch-company-inc
Bedrock/Shinola = https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cas...manufacturing-company-llc-also-doing-business
Ginault = none (no search results)

It was also obvious that was only a rumor because "Hand Built in America" is equivalent to "Made in USA". There's no difference as I explained earlier.



59er said:


> Here we go again.
> 
> We all like friendly debate between watch enthusiasts but some guys are clearly hostile to Ginault in particular so I don't consider then enthusiasts at all.
> 
> ...


I'm not an enthusiast because I've questioned whether or not Ginault meets a legal standard? I questioned the same thing when Weiss was posted about in 2013. Clearly I'm targeting Ginault though, and you have no bias despite 95%+ of your posts being about Ginault.

EDIT: Guess what 1 of 2 alerts I have setup for Watchrecon is?


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Like many brands with many products, Ginault are overreaching with their marketing... it's up to each of us to decide if we care.

Unless you glance down your wrist to catch the time and the words "R W Smith" are on the dial, chances are you don't own a hand built watch.

Time for another crappy ipad photo!

Swapped back to the black insert and a black one piece Rhino for a _kinda_ 'Mil Sub' (ha I wish!) look

Edit: please excuse the hand eczema!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Citizen V said:


> Blahblahblah


What is your point? Honestly. What do you want? You were looking for the FTC complains website and found this URL by accident? Other than that I can't see what is the point of any of your posts here, I'm afraid...


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Citizen V said:


> No, that's a ridiculous assumption to think I'd expect that and you know it. All you have to do is refer to Weiss, Niall or even Shinola to know what corrections Ginault would have to do.
> 
> FTC doesn't babysit companies, at least not companies this small. However, if complaints are filed, then they investigate like in the case of Weiss and Niall. From what I can see, Weiss lasted 2 years before being approached by the FTC. Niall maybe a 1 year.
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, this debate occurred about 2 years ago.

I believe "Made IN" and "Hand Built" have different levels of oversight relative to FTC ruling. "Built" is more analogous to "Assembled". "Made", for a US FTC legal standard, means every meaningful component must be manufactured in the United States.

Ginault changed their case backs (and offered replacement case backs to those who requested it) which removed the "Made in" statement.

Again, this was all covered in immense detail about 500 pages ago.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

From what I read, to say "Made in the USA" you have to practically have every bit of labor and every piece made in the USA. That, if true, is totally ludicrous in today's more complex world economy. There would be very few products that would meet that standard (that have to be manufactured anyway). While I agree in principle that the FTC should watch out for false advertising, in this case, I think most people would NOT have such a total definition in mind when they thought of Made in USA. At some point the definitions of those terms should be updated in a common sense fashion.

Plus, I suspect Ginault's system of producing the watch is a lot more beneficial to the US than Rolex's is to the US. That is, regardless of what parts are imported, if there are jobs to be had in the US and taxes to be paid in the US, that seems far better to me (given I live in the US) than it is to convince such companies that it would be better for them to move somewhere where the regulations are a bit more reasonable. I seem to recall "Swiss Made" is something like 60% of the value of the item has to come from Switzerland.

Which is why I see it less as a "scandal" and more of a government overreach on the part of the FTC. I think the FTC is trying to do its job as it is instructed to do, so I don't blame them, but I DO blame the old-fashioned definition of the term. They might as well require horses to haul all the components to the factory.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> No, that's a ridiculous assumption to think I'd expect that and you know it. All you have to do is refer to Weiss, Niall or even Shinola to know what corrections Ginault would have to do.
> 
> FTC doesn't babysit companies, at least not companies this small. However, if complaints are filed, then they investigate like in the case of Weiss and Niall. From what I can see, Weiss lasted 2 years before being approached by the FTC. Niall maybe a 1 year.
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying. From a legal point of view yes it may be an issue later down the line.

From a consumer point of view I dont think it makes much difference. One could argue that "swiss made" doesn't mean much these days either.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> If I remember correctly, this debate occurred about 2 years ago.


You're correct. Discussion of this started around page 49, and the bulk of it occurred around page 78. I don't see any evidence that the FTC contacted Ginault even though that's what people tell me. There were only assumptions ('if they remove the phrase, this is what the FTC advised them to do' and recommendations ('they should contact the FTC for advice')

I did find one instance where Ginault commented on it. It was inthis interview/review.



> Q: In the member reviews, there is a bold statement on the caseback of your Ocean-Rover stating "MADE IN USA". Are you playing the patriotism game to gain sales?
> 
> A: Absolutely not. The Made In USA phrase was used out of ignorance.
> 
> ...


There's no mention about communication with the FTC. That's not proof that it didn't happen, but consider the following below.



Ryeguy said:


> I believe "Made IN" and "Hand Built" have different levels of oversight relative to FTC ruling. "Built" is more analogous to "Assembled". "Made", for a US FTC legal standard, means every meaningful component must be manufactured in the United States.


That's apparently what Ginault also believed but if you read my previous posts, you'll see why this doesn't make sense. I'll summarize it again.

1) "Made in" and "Hand Built" mean the same thing per the FTC article's section about express/implied claims. Even stating "USA" or a referencing city like geographical location like "Detroit" can count as unqualified claim (i.e all or virtually all).



> *A Made in USA claim can be express or implied.*
> Examples of express claims: Made in USA. "Our products are American-made." "USA."
> 
> In identifying implied claims, the Commission focuses on the overall impression of the advertising, label, or promotional material. Depending on the context, U.S. symbols or geographic references (for example, U.S. flags, outlines of U.S. maps, or references to U.S. locations of headquarters or factories) may convey a claim of U.S. origin either by themselves, or in conjunction with other phrases or images.


2) The only lower level of "oversight" are qualified claims. Ginault does not do this, either on the watch or on their website.



> A qualified Made in USA claim describes the extent, amount or type of a product's domestic content or processing; it indicates that the product isn't entirely of domestic origin.
> 
> Example: "60% U.S. content." "Made in USA of U.S. and imported parts." "Couch assembled in USA from Italian Leather and Mexican Frame."


3) In the letters FTC wrote to Niall, Weiss and Shinola, they explicitly state "Built" falls under unqualified claims.


> As discussed, unqualified "Made in USA" or "Built in USA" claims likely suggest to consumers that products are "all or virtually all" made in the United States.





Ryeguy said:


> Again, this was all covered in immense detail about 500 pages ago.


It was definitely talked about but I don't agree it was covered in "immense detail". There wasn't any mention of "unqualified" claims until July 2019, then by me in the last few pages. When speaking about what Ginault is/isn't doing, it's hard to get around that terminology of qualified and unqualified claims. There are a lot of people talking about Made in USA standards, but not very many people who are reading the actual regulations.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> I hear what you're saying. From a legal point of view yes it may be an issue later down the line.
> 
> From a consumer point of view I dont think it makes much difference. One could argue that "swiss made" doesn't mean much these days either.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I agree with that. It makes sense to me that Ginault get ahead of it (again) and fix it now rather than deal with the headache of the FTC.

In the case of customers, I bet most are watch enthusiasts who know what they're getting so the labeling doesn't matter.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> I agree with that. It makes sense to me that Ginault get ahead of it (again) and fix it now rather than deal with the headache of the FTC.
> 
> In the case of customers, I bet most are watch enthusiasts who know what they're getting so the labeling doesn't matter.


I agree, and as much I like Ginault I think they have a LOT more work to do in terms of production, diversification and marketing if they plan on being around mid to long term.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Citizen V said:


> You're correct. Discussion of this started around page 49, and the bulk of it occurred around page 78. I don't see any evidence that the FTC contacted Ginault even though that's what people tell me. There were only assumptions ('if they remove the phrase, this is what the FTC advised them to do' and recommendations ('they should contact the FTC for advice')
> 
> I did find one instance where Ginault commented on it. It was inthis interview/review.
> 
> ...


This topic was covered in numerous other threads as well.

WUS user "hwa" (who, I believe, is an attorney) wrote at great length about the potential FTC violation in terminology and marketing verbiage. The Ginault Ocean Rover clearly, by Ginault's own admission, fails to meet the "Made in the USA" standard. No one is questioning that point.

The question I have is, after this topic has discussed multiple times, why bring it up again? If it is a point of significant agitation for you, then call the FTC and report Ginault's violation. Bringing it up again here is simply going to derail this thread once more.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Quit wasting people's time. Hand built in America means just that, no more, no less. It does not imply the components are all made in the USA. If that were the case the following would mean that the Acura NSX was totally a made in USA product:

https://www.chicagoacuradealers.com/2017-acura-nsx-hand-built-america/

Or how about this hand built in America Defender: https://www.dsf.my/2017/06/this-defender-is-uniquely-hand-built-in-america-usd285k/

And Larrivée guitars...Hand built in America and nowhere else (wood is sourced from India, Canada, etc). https://www.larrivee.com/news/-a-new-legend-is-in-town

And that's just a a very quick search.... Hand built means the components are assembled or put together by hand. If I have a Hand built Guitar from America that can and does mean that someone built the guitar by carving/shaping the raw materials likely procured out of country, assembled with hardware from either in or out of country, and put it in a case from likely Canada. The guitar was still hand built in the USA. (In fact in Gibson/Fender's guitars they are MADE in the USA despite the fact a number of parts may be from outside of the country)

Just seems to me you've a got a problem with a Ginault which quite frankly in the bigger scheme of things does not exist.


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## 59er (Mar 12, 2016)

Just another boring re-iteration of what has been said over and over and over and over.

Man and some guys say that endless wrist shots are boring.

Nearly five and a half thousand posts in this thread and I wonder just how many are concerning just this subject.

Please, give it a rest.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> I don't know about 5 digit subs, but 6 digit ones are actually 41mm across the bezel (it might me 40.9 or something) despite the specs saying 40mm


I made a post about this on the Rolex subforum, turns out the 6 digit bezel diamater is 40.28, not ~41mm

If the Ginault case is true to 5 digit which seems to be, then it's 39.5mm -- so there's a .78mm difference in diameter across the dial between the Ginault and a 6 digit sub.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> I made a post about this on the Rolex subforum, turns out the 6 digit bezel diamater is 40.28, not ~41mm
> 
> If the Ginault case is true to 5 digit which seems to be, then it's 39.5mm -- so there's a .78mm difference in diameter across the dial between the Ginault and a 6 digit sub.


Could be.. I just know the subC is bigger than 40.

Hang on a while and I'll measure both the SubC and OR1 that I own.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> Could be.. I just know the subC is bigger than 40.
> 
> Hang on a while and I'll measure both the SubC and OR1 that I own.


That would be awesome. I'd also appreciate your take, numbers aside, if the Ginault does feel a good amount smaller than the SubC

I hated how small the BB58 felt on my wrist and I'm hoping the Ginault isn't gonna give that same sense of smallness, cause the OR 2.0 has so many good things going for it.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> That would be awesome. I'd also appreciate your take, numbers aside, if the Ginault does feel a good amount smaller than the SubC
> 
> I hated how small the BB58 felt on my wrist and I'm hoping the Ginault isn't gonna give that same sense of smallness, cause the OR 2.0 has so many good things going for it.


I just measured these *roughly*

Mkii Kingston 39.2mm
Rolex SubC 40.3mm
Ginault OR 40.1mm
Seiko Sumo 42.5mm

These are bezel measurements, if the case is wider than the bezel (eg Sumo) then I haven't measured it!

Please note that photo's not worth dog crap cos the watches are at different heights!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> That would be awesome. I'd also appreciate your take, numbers aside, if the Ginault does feel a good amount smaller than the SubC
> 
> I hated how small the BB58 felt on my wrist and I'm hoping the Ginault isn't gonna give that same sense of smallness, cause the OR 2.0 has so many good things going for it.


It's a bit hard to put words to it.

Yeah the subC wears and feels bigger, but I think that's to do with my perception of the Rolex having a denser feel (the Sub is on the bracelet though)

The tenths of a millimetre here and there aren't making much difference (if the BB58 is really 39mm then that's over a full 1mm between it and the SubC/OR) but the fat lugs and fat crown guards of the Rolex give it more visual gravity IMO...

I've not had nor handled a BB58 I like it, but it's too close to my Kingston which I like more and after the sub I promised myself no more 4 figure watches purchases (I got the OR secondhand)

Sorry I digress..

I would *GUESS* that the BB58 is closest to my Kingston (although the internet says the BB has a L2L of 47 and the Kingston is about 47.9)

My feeling is that the Ginault wears/looks/feels closer to my Kingston than my SubC.... and my *HUNCH* is that the BB58 would be closest to the Kingston....

....so it's hard to say that you'd be happy with the size of a ORii

(If a Sumo looks just right on your wrist, then for sure the OR will look small!)


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Wrist shots aren't that useful IMO because even if folks share a wrist size, they don't necessarily share a wrist shape...

The OR is slightly noticeably larger than the Kingston (which I'm *assuming* is give or take about BB58 size)

But IMO the SubC with its fat case shape just adds to the impression of size compared to the other two

If the BB58 was too small for you, then the OR just might not be enough of a difference....

(Did you not think about getting the 41mm BB?)


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

@ adzman808 thanks for the wonderful write up.

I am surprised the Ginault is >40mm to your calculations when the case is replicates is known to be 39.5mm for decades. Interesting. You have gotten accurate readings on the 6 digit sub so I can only imagine you'd get the Ginault right too.

Maybe there are some slight size differences between Ginault and 5 digit sub cases.

To be honest in your 4 watch stack photo, the OR and SubC look to be around the same size visually.. but as you said take that with a grain of salt.

I think my best bet would be to track someone with a 5 digit sub in real life and see how it wears...

I wonder if the denser feel of the 6 digit has to do with ceramic being used over aluminum. 

I didn't like the 41MM BB due to mismatched dial and bezel color. The warm gilt bezel on the BB58 is amazing. If the BB41 had that I'd have been all over it.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> @ adzman808 thanks for the wonderful write up.
> 
> I am surprised the Ginault is >40mm to your calculations when the case is replicates is known to be 39.5mm for decades. Interesting. You have gotten accurate readings on the 6 digit sub so I can only imagine you'd get the Ginault right too.
> 
> ...


Contrary to some claims (both in this thread and other sources) the OR is not a 1:1 five digit case copy, this might explain the size difference...

It never ceases to amaze me that (say) a 41mm watch feels ok, and a 42.5 watch feels big... a 13mm thick watch is ok, and a 16mm thick watch feels tall... but between the Sub and the OR we're talking some tenths of a millimetre...

Might be the ceramic, might be the steel (316 vs 904), might be the physically larger movement, might be my imagination because I paid all that money for it.... but whatever it is, the SubC feels denser to me than the OR

Anyway, have you thought about this? (He says casually, tripling your budget for you!)

79220N, black face and bezel, gilt dial, 41mm - last of the eta2824 ones iirc

https://timelessluxwatches.com/reviews/tudor-black-bay-review/


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

double post


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> Contrary to some claims (both in this thread and other sources) the OR is not a 1:1 five digit case copy, this might explain the size difference...
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me that (say) a 41mm watch feels ok, and a 42.5 watch feels big... a 13mm thick watch is ok, and a 16mm thick watch feels tall... but between the Sub and the OR we're talking some tenths of a millimetre...
> 
> ...


I did love the eta BB, but when I meant the bezel color was off with the BB41, I meant with the numeral color. The white numeral on black bezel it just looks off putting compared to the BB58. If the bezel had gilt numerals I'd honestly probably get it.

And if anything I learned that the Ginault is actually bigger than the 5 digit case... wow!

Since your perception is somewhat based on the "feeling" of how dense the SubC is, and I know this is kind of weird to phrase but, if you just had to block out the case and look at the surface area alone from one end of the bezel to the other, I'd imagine you wouldn't see a size difference between the Ginault and the 6 digit SubC? At least from what I learned here so far.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> I did love the eta BB, but when I meant the bezel color was off with the BB41, I meant with the numeral color. The white numeral on black bezel it just looks off putting compared to the BB58. If the bezel had gilt numerals I'd honestly probably get it.
> 
> And if anything I learned that the Ginault is actually bigger than the 5 digit case... wow!
> 
> Since your perception is somewhat based on the "feeling" of how dense the SubC is, and I know this is kind of weird to phrase but, if you just had to block out the case and look at the surface area alone from one end of the bezel to the other, I'd imagine you wouldn't see a size difference between the Ginault and the 6 digit SubC? At least from what I learned here so far.


The 6538 that the Kingston homages' and the BB pastiches' doesn't have a gilt bezel either

I just measured the OR again, I got 40.1 again.

No I don't think that one would notice two tenths of a mm on the wrist, that's like 2 sheets of paper!

I don't have a 16610 to measure, so I've no clue if it is 39.5.. I'm *slightly* skeptical as a 16610 bezel insert has an OD of 37.7, which leaves a paltry 0.4mm for the knurled grip of the bezel, I just *loosely* measured* the distance between the edge of the insert and the edge of the bezel on the OR and that *looks* like 1.X mm*

(*sorry, I can't quite summon the motivation to pop the bezel, take the insert out and measure it properly, nor do I want to scratch the insert with my metal calliper)

Looking at pictures of the 16610 side by side with the 116610 is, to my eye at least, a lot like looking at the OR and the SubC

And on that note for my €0.02.... No matter what the ruler says, the fat lugs and the thicker bezel insert. Side by side, the SubC looks and wears like a bigger watch

I think if anything you need a side by side with the BB58 and the OR or at least the 16610.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

FWIW... it’s only the 14060 that I can find listed as having 39.5 bezel size...

Anyway...

BB58 vs 114060 and BB58 vs 16710 (which I assume has similar proportions to a 16610)

Thanks to @aguynamedtommy on IG (and google!)


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Trying to be helpful, although I cannot make any conclusion from these pics...


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Again I appreciate the effort into these posts. Much apppreciated.

A little confused though...

You wrote:

" No I don't think that one would notice two tenths of a mm on the wrist, that's like 2 sheets of paper!"

And then wrote...



adzman808 said:


> And on that note for my €0.02.... No matter what the ruler says, the fat lugs and the thicker bezel insert. Side by side, the SubC looks and wears like a bigger watch


Are they not both sentences at odds with each other?

But also that's what I've been stating all along with the bezel insert. That's why I was surprised to hear they measure similarly, the insert on the 6 digit sub just looks wider. Maybe less room for the outer bezel grip.


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## CrunchyGears (Dec 23, 2011)

Slgihtly off topic but does anyone know if an OEM Rolex crown tube/crown would work in an OR? Asking because a big draw for me of the OR was the similarity to a Rolex Sub at the technical level, and if Ginault stops producing the parts to maintain this piece down the road, will real Rolex parts work in it? Thanks!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> Again I appreciate the effort into these posts. Much apppreciated.
> 
> That's what I've been stating all along. That's why I was surprised to hear they size similarly, the insert on the 6 digit sub just looks wider. Maybe less room for the outer bezel grip.


I can't see the 16610 having a 39.5mm diameter. The insert is too wide.

The 14060 has a 39.5 diameter (if the internet is correct) and the insert has a different part # to the 16610

The 114060 has some 1/10s of a mm over the 16610 in the bezel dia, and looking at the pictures *perhaps* some tenths less in the dial dia

Looking at GarbanzoNegro's post, it looks to me like if you can try on a 16610 and you like it, then you'll like a OR


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

beydoun.ia said:


> Slgihtly off topic but does anyone know if an OEM Rolex crown tube/crown would work in an OR? Asking because a big draw for me of the OR was the similarity to a Rolex Sub at the technical level, and if Ginault stops producing the parts to maintain this piece down the road, will real Rolex parts work in it? Thanks!


These some folks you've modded their OR's quite extensively a few hundred posts back that might know...

You could fire off an email to Ginault, just maybe phrase it like "does the crown use an industry standard thread and is the pendant tube double threaded" rather than ask if generic Rolex parts fit it ;-)

Forum wisdom has it that 16610 bezel inserts and crystals drop straight in...


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Yep need to find a 5 digit sub to try out!


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

DouglasI said:


> Quit wasting people's time.


You're free to choose what you do with your time. I never asked you to respond to me. My conversation with MrAuto had already ended before you, Ryeguy and 59er decided to revive the subject.

However, if you do want to continue this meaningless "debate", I suggest you actually read my past posts before posting irrelevant information. :think: I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post with any rebuttal, because I literally have already covered this.


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## CrunchyGears (Dec 23, 2011)

adzman808 said:


> These some folks you've modded their OR's quite extensively a few hundred posts back that might know...
> 
> You could fire off an email to Ginault, just maybe phrase it like "does the crown use an industry standard thread and is the pendant tube double threaded" rather than ask if generic Rolex parts fit it ;-)
> 
> Forum wisdom has it that 16610 bezel inserts and crystals drop straight in...


Thank you  I will!


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Beydoun.ie pls let us know what Ginault has to say......that would be interesting


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Citizen V said:


> You're free to choose what you do with your time. I never asked you to respond to me. My conversation with MrAuto had already ended before you, Ryeguy and 59er decided to revive the subject.
> 
> However, if you do want to continue this meaningless "debate", I suggest you actually read my past posts before posting irrelevant information. :think: I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post with any rebuttal, because I literally have already covered this.


To be fair, when you quote my post and tell me I am wrong (i.e. "hand built in" not being analogous to "assembled in") then you should expect a response. It isn't a "revival" of the topic, but a continuation.

I'm much less interested in whether Ginault is following the letter of the law regarding using the phrase "Hand Built in..." than whether Ginault is actually assembling watches in the USA as they claim.

They have posted a couple photos of a guy holding a tray of watch cases in front of a milling machine, but there is no context in the photo that would indicate he was in the USA (or China, or Switzerland, or anywhere specific). I would love to see more photos of the watch-makers and their equipment with some additional context in the shot that would demonstrate a USA location. I welcome the revival of the watchmaking trade in the USA, even if certain sub-components must be sourced overseas.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm pretty sure you can get a genuine Rolex tube in that case, as the crown uses the exact same triple lock Rolex uses (now the patent moral squad has another sin to add to the list, lol). Still it might be the case that you have to buy both a genuine tube and a genuine crown, as I'm not sure the threading would be the same. As it has been suggested, I would email John and ask him.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

FWIW Cousins (so probably all the watch part suppliers) sell generic rolex crowns, tubes, gaskets, crystals, pendant tubes - they even sell the tap to thread a hole to accept a generic rolex pendant tube.

I’m sure some folks will know what fits, but so much good info in here is buried under folks discussing the various erm aspects of the ginault brand


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Ryeguy said:


> To be fair, when you quote my post and tell me I am wrong (i.e. "hand built in" not being analogous to "assembled in") then you should expect a response. It isn't a "revival" of the topic, but a continuation.


That's a fair point.



Ryeguy said:


> I'm much less interested in whether Ginault is following the letter of the law regarding using the phrase "Hand Built in..."


That's fine and I'm sure that's how a lot of people feel. I find the labeling laws fascinating ever since I learned about Swiss Made years ago. I've read through a significant amount of documentation on country of origin laws in the past because of it. The Made in USA standard has been especially interesting because of its stringent guidelines and the resurgence of US manufacturing. That's why I was drawn to this thread like similar ones in the past.
To your point about calling the FTC, I actually emailed them a month ago. I also did that with Weiss, Niall and Shinola. I doubt any of it matters but just providing further evidence how I'm not "targeting" Ginault like some people here seem to think.



Ryeguy said:


> than whether Ginault is actually assembling watches in the USA as they claim. They have posted a couple photos of a guy holding a tray of watch cases in front of a milling machine, but there is no context in the photo that would indicate he was in the USA (or China, or Switzerland, or anywhere specific).


Ok. Now how is this not being blown out of proportion as a "false claim" by 59er? To an outsider to this thread, it seems like you're questioning Ginault's integrity and I'm sure that's also been brought up numerous times.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I think it is fine to question respectfully and express a desire for more evidence. 

I would love for Ginault to post a series of photos of some of their manufacturing facilities and personnel. While I’m certain their facilities are humble (or even distributed / “cottage”) when compared to the likes of RGM, the USA assembled aspect of the watch is an appealing claim and something to be celebrated in my opinion. 

That all said, I’m also a long time owner (buying one when they were first released) and remain impressed with the fit, finish, and the ongoing customer support I have received. Allegations aside, my buying and ownership experience has been positive.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> That's a fair point.
> 
> That's fine and I'm sure that's how a lot of people feel. I find the labeling laws fascinating ever since I learned about Swiss Made years ago. I've read through a significant amount of documentation on country of origin laws in the past because of it. The Made in USA standard has been especially interesting because of its stringent guidelines and the resurgence of US manufacturing. That's why I was drawn to this thread like similar ones in the past.
> To your point about calling the FTC, I actually emailed them a month ago. I also did that with Weiss, Niall and Shinola. I doubt any of it matters but just providing further evidence how I'm not "targeting" Ginault like some people here seem to think.
> ...


Contacting the FTC huh? Seems like someone is suffering from a bout of "Gladys Kravitz" syndrome. And Btw, you are still way off base about "hand built in America". That's just my opinion and it oughta be yours.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> That all said, I'm also a long time owner (buying one when they were first released) and remain impressed with the fit, finish, and the ongoing customer support I have received. Allegations aside, my buying and ownership experience has been positive.


Well said.

As a newbie owner having got one secondhand, these observations re the quality of the product and the customer support were of far more interest to me than any negativity people felt towards Ginault's origins

That's not to say that people who feel strongly about such things shouldn't feel that way. Not at all.

But equally people have the right to simply enjoy the watch and IMO with the exception of any interest shown in their company by the appropriate authorities, Ginault have no obligation to prove anything outside of the quality of their product.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

DouglasI said:


> Contacting the FTC huh? Seems like someone is suffering from a bout of "Gladys Kravitz" syndrome. And Btw, you are still way off base about "hand built in America". That's just my opinion and it oughta be yours.


That's what they're there for.

The FTC has literally said "Built in USA" is a unqualified claim to 3 watch manufacturers. If you don't know what a "unqualified claim" is at this point in the conversation, you can't be helped.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DouglasI said:


> Contacting the FTC huh? Seems like someone is suffering from a bout of "Gladys Kravitz" syndrome. And Btw, you are still way off base about "hand built in America". That's just my opinion and it oughta be yours.


I agree with what he's saying from the FTC's point of view but going out of ones way to put a small business in potential hot water is extreme to say the least! Especially coming from someone who has an "interest" in the product

I dont know what one would expect to gain from doing it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

I can see contacting the FTC on Shinola as they are a large company sold through retail outlets to the masses. They ought to have corporate legal guidance regarding marketing claims. I believe there is more likelihood of intent of deceit with Shinola than with Weiss or Ginault on this point. 

Contacting the FTC on niche brands marketed solely towards enthusiasts through online only channels seems extreme in my opinion. Brands such as Weiss and Ginault are tiny enterprises, essentially one-man shops. You might as well go through Etsy and call the FTC on anyone marketing their bead bracelet as “hand made in the USA”. 

All that said, if the end result is Ginault having to remove the “Hand Made....” text from the 6 o’clock portion of the dial and instead engraved “Hand Assembled in the USA” on the case back, I wouldn’t be terribly upset. It also wouldn’t change my opinion on the quality of the watch, nor would it change my opinion regarding the level of effort Ginault claims to invest in the watch manufacturing process in the USA. 

Personally, I do not find the phrase “hand built” to be misleading and Ginault has been open regarding which components are sourced from outside the US. There is no intent to deceive here in my opinion. 

People have challenged the veracity of these manufacturing claims, which is a completely other topic, but the potential FTC violation is a tempest in a teapot as far as I am concerned. 

FWIW, I’m actually more likely to buy a Weiss now simply because you narc’d on them.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> I can see contacting the FTC on Shinola as they are a large company sold through retail outlets to the masses. They ought to have corporate legal guidance regarding marketing claims. I believe there is more likelihood of intent of deceit with Shinola than with Weiss or Ginault on this point.
> 
> Contacting the FTC on niche brands marketed solely towards enthusiasts through online only channels seems extreme in my opinion. Brands such as Weiss and Ginault are tiny enterprises, essentially one-man shops. You might as well go through Etsy and call the FTC on anyone marketing their bead bracelet as "hand made in the USA".
> 
> ...


How about the burglar working in your town? Gonna send him a few bucks, too? He's a one-man act, hardly worth holding to the law.

This conversation should've been left dead, if only because the adherents just dont care. They never have. Geez, this last couple of days, y'all have actually been discussing how to put rolex parts into your Ginault, as if folks cant figure out what that's all about!

I keep following the thread just to see how close to the line you'll all be allowed to go.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)




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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> How about the burglar working in your town? Gonna send him a few bucks, too? He's a one-man act, hardly worth holding to the law.
> 
> This conversation should've been left dead, if only because the adherents just dont care. They never have. Geez, this last couple of days, y'all have actually been discussing how to put rolex parts into your Ginault, as if folks cant figure out what that's all about!
> 
> ...


Really? You are equating what Weiss did with a burglar? I think you are stretching the analogy a bit too far.

As for the parts question, they are talking about crown tubes. If your Kobold crown strips, good luck getting a replacement part. At least with this watch, if Ginault disappears (as the brand did about a decade ago) at least you might have a shot at replacing wear item components.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


>


Of all the topics on WUS, I'd of thought this is one you would avoid getting back into.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Of all the topics on WUS, I'd of thought this is one you would avoid getting back into.


You'd think wouldn't you....


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

hwa said:


> y'all have actually been discussing how to put rolex parts into your Ginault, as if folks cant figure out what that's all about!
> 
> I keep following the thread just to see how close to the line you'll all be allowed to go.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You mean generic non-branded rolex parts legally sold by many US/Euro companies?

Rolex don't sell gen parts separately... they even keep your broken bits when you get them serviced.

No one here is talking about gen parts on a Ginault.

MKii won't sell me a bracelet screw, they want me to buy a whole new bracelet... ask me how I know..

Timefactors can no longer supply a crown and tube for a mk1 Everest... ask me how I know..

But finally a microbrand that might, just might, have had the good sense to tap into the colossal range of generic parts available worldwide.

Anyway...

Wow get a load of these guys, selling fake watch parts, call the cops


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

hwa said:


> How about the burglar working in your town? Gonna send him a few bucks, too? He's a one-man act, hardly worth holding to the law.
> 
> This conversation should've been left dead, if only because the adherents just dont care. They never have. Geez, this last couple of days, y'all have actually been discussing how to put rolex parts into your Ginault, as if folks cant figure out what that's all about!
> 
> ...


Unfair comparison. Ginault are not taking anything away from anyone without consent.

This is a niche product. The consumers within this niche know and understand what the phrase means, and Ginault have been quite forthcoming about the origins of thier parts and location of assembly as someone else pointed out.

It's silly nitpicking behaviour.

Would you buy an i phone and complain that there's no liquid in the liquid retina display?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> I agree with what he's saying from the FTC's point of view but going out of ones way to put a small business in potential hot water is extreme to say the least! Especially coming from someone who has an "interest" in the product
> 
> I dont know what one would expect to gain from doing it.


I just just actually feel that the FTC uphold "Made in USA" if the standard is going to mean something, especially because so many of the other country's standards are so lax. I also wouldn't call it "hot water". I don't know what people are expecting the FTC to do. They're not going to fine them or raid their business. They investigate, contact them, ask for corrective action, then stop the "investigation".

As for my "interest", I just bought a 181875GSLID this morning. Am I in the club now?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> I just just actually feel that the FTC uphold "Made in USA" if the standard is going to mean something, especially because so many of the other country's standards are so lax. I also wouldn't call it "hot water". I don't know what people are expecting the FTC to do. They're not going to fine them or raid their business. They investigate, contact them, ask for corrective action, then stop the "investigation".
> 
> As for my "interest", I just bought a 181875GSLID this morning. Am I in the club now?


I dont think theres any doubts whatsoever about the FTC upholding its standards. The barrier to entry is ridiculously high and theres only a handful of watch companies that are allowed to use the phrase so I'd say they're doing a pretty damn good job so far.

Of course it's hot water!! especially for such a small company. It's an issue that could cost them a LOT of time and money to put right.

Anyway congrats on the new acquisition, hand built in America.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Dec1968 said:


> You'd think wouldn't you....


:-d Hey man, do you think you can herd these cats back to the link / thread you created for the volatile seething side of the discussion you set up. It worked great, but somehow it's circled back over here.

RD


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> That's what they're there for.
> 
> The FTC has literally said "Built in USA" is a unqualified claim to 3 watch manufacturers. If you don't know what a "unqualified claim" is at this point in the conversation, you can't be helped.


1. Just because the government says it's so doesn't make it necessarily true. Just read the news paper.

2. Whereas "made in USA" or "built in USA" may suggest "all or virtually all" you need to look at context. Furthermore the phrase in question is "HAND built in America". Totally different context and meaning. Your house is "hand built in America" even though many of the components are not.

3. While I sincerely applaud your zealousness and persistence on this issue there might be some more dire causes in your country where your diligence is needed. Following the current trends and global view, "Made in USA" may begin to lose its equivalence with quality.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Riddim Driven said:


> :-d Hey man, do you think you can herd these cats back to the link / thread you created for the volatile seething side of the discussion you set up. It worked great, but somehow it's circled back over here.
> 
> RD


If you can petition to get that thread unlocked, then absolutely. That was the entire point of that thread. Some folks had to make it a personal attack on me versus being grateful for what it was. They have themselves to blame for it crawling back into this thread.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Moving on...

Had a chat with John yesterday here's part of the convo

"We should have pictures of the actual prototype for the.black.ceramic.variants.by.the end of August. There will be a delay on the blue ceramic variants as we are working with our supplier trying to get the blue tone exactly the way we want."

He also said shipping is still on track on beginning of Q4 with a possible small delay with the Blue ceramic ones. 

I'm going to take" end of August" to mean mid September but I'll be keeping an eye on their Insta page! 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> Moving on...
> 
> Had a chat with John yesterday here's part of the convo
> 
> ...


I'd love to see something moving for mid September, to be honest. Although I'd like to see photos and wristies now, lol.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

DouglasI said:


> 1. Just because the government says it's so doesn't make it necessarily true. Just read the news paper.
> 
> 2. Whereas "made in USA" or "built in USA" may suggest "all or virtually all" you need to look at context. Furthermore the phrase in question is "HAND built in America". Totally different context and meaning. Your house is "hand built in America" even though many of the components are not.
> 
> 3. While I sincerely applaud your zealousness and persistence on this issue there might be some more dire causes in your country where your diligence is needed. Following the current trends and global view, "Made in USA" may begin to lose its equivalence with quality.


1. What? You don't believe what the FTC said about guidelines they set and enforce? Even when there's undeniable evidence the enforcement occurred?

2. There's no point in arguing this because you've clearly never read the FTC guidelines or any of my previous posts, since I've rehashed this over and over.

3. The FTC is actually having a workshop (businesses invited) on September 29th where they're discussing the Made in USA standard and any need for changes. I'd link the article but it was on the FTC's website and apparently you don't trust them.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

^^^As the seemingly self appointed horological investigative arm for the FTC in this matter, will you be traveling to Washington DC to participate in this workshop?

I’m not trying to make a snarky comment. I’m genuinely interested because if someone is going to take it upon themselves to systematically report potential violations to enforcement agencies, they should be as educated on the topic as possible.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> 1. What? You don't believe what the FTC said about guidelines they set and enforce? Even when there's undeniable evidence the enforcement occurred?
> 
> 2. There's no point in arguing this because you've clearly never read the FTC guidelines or any of my previous posts, since I've rehashed this over and over.
> 
> 3. The FTC is actually having a workshop (businesses invited) on September 29th where they're discussing the Made in USA standard and any need for changes. I'd link the article but it was on the FTC's website and apparently you don't trust them.


i think you're missing the point.

It's a minor detail thats not important to the consumers of this particular product, you achieve nothing positive by complaining to the FTC about it aside from more potential setbacks and delays for those who have spent thier hard earned to acquire one. Nobody benefits apart from your Ego.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

And yet you keep arguing over a pointless thing. I mean, literally, what is the point of that discussion?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> If you can petition to get that thread unlocked, then absolutely. That was the entire point of that thread. Some folks had to make it a personal attack on me versus being grateful for what it was. They have themselves to blame for it crawling back into this thread.


What it was, was a hypocrite who engaged in illegal activity persecuting someone else who used to engage in illegal activity. How's your Tisell clasp and calipers?

This thread needs to be moderated. No one interested in Ginault will care about your FTC Guidelines, and people who care about FTC guidelines never wanted to get a Ginault anyway.

Just stop.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> i think you're missing the point.
> 
> It's a minor detail thats not important to the consumers of this particular product, you achieve nothing positive by complaining to the FTC about it aside from more potential setbacks and delays for those who have spent thier hard earned to acquire one. Nobody benefits apart from your Ego.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Exactly that. The thing that keeps surprising me is how a bunch of supposed watch lovers keep trying to deny others the enjoyment of their watches. Honestly, what's wrong with you guys? Is it really that painful for you that some of us enjoy wearing a Ginault that you really need to go as far as to file formal complains to the government? Don't you realise how ridiculous does it look on your side?

Don't be haters, enjoy your watches and let other enjoy theirs, I thought this was the purpose of this community.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Axinnon said:


> No one interested in Ginault will care about your FTC Guidelines, and people who care about FTC guidelines never wanted to get a Ginault anyway.


Pretty much. As I said before, it only shows a lack of manners and respect for others. It's like if someone walked in a Nike shop screaming how bad are their sneakers and how Adidas are better. Just silly, rude and ultimately embarrassing for them.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

mrmorfo said:


> And yet you keep arguing over a pointless thing. I mean, literally, what is the point of that discussion?


Just like in RyeGuy's case, people keep replying. People apparently want to keep the discussion going based on that. I would have been content if the conversation ended pages ago when I thought MrAuto and I were in agreement about something.

How about this? *I'll *be the bigger man and stop responding because apparently everyone else in this thread is incapable of it. This is also purely for my Ego just like the email I sent the FTC that actually won't do anything. :roll:


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> I just just actually feel that the FTC uphold "Made in USA" if the standard is going to mean something, especially because so many of the other country's standards are so lax. I also wouldn't call it "hot water". I don't know what people are expecting the FTC to do. They're not going to fine them or raid their business. They investigate, contact them, ask for corrective action, then stop the "investigation".
> 
> *As for my "interest", I just bought a 181875GSLID this morning. Am I in the club now?*


Really? Can we see a purchase receipt just so we know what you claimed is true?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> Really? You are equating what Weiss did with a burglar? I think you are stretching the analogy a bit too far.
> 
> As for the parts question, they are talking about crown tubes. If your Kobold crown strips, good luck getting a replacement part. At least with this watch, if Ginault disappears (as the brand did about a decade ago) at least you might have a shot at replacing wear item components.


You said, "FWIW, I'm actually more likely to buy a Weiss now simply because you narc'd on them." I'm criticizing that statement, using hyperbole, to illustrate the lengths to which the Ginault adherents, you included, routinely go to express their support.

Here's yet another example, to go with your stated preference for Weiss over the whistleblower:

you say "they are talking about crown tubes. If your Kobold crown strips, good luck getting a replacement part," but nobody is talking about Kobold. They're talking - literally - about sticking Rolex parts into a Ginault. Do you truly wonder why that is? Or are you just playing with words in the margins of a thinly-disguised rep debate?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> Unfair comparison. Ginault are not taking anything away from anyone without consent.
> 
> This is a niche product. The consumers within this niche know and understand what the phrase means, and Ginault have been quite forthcoming about the origins of thier parts and location of assembly as someone else pointed out.
> 
> ...


If I'm understanding the first part of your post, your basic premise is that, whatever the legality of what Ginault is doing, as long as Ginault's customers are cool with it, nobody should worry about it. Maybe I'm old enough to remember when "rule of law" meant something. Whatever, dude, knock yourself out.

As for the "liquid" in liquid retina display, that's some noncontextualized nonsense right there. Don't waste my time with that weak sauce.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

DanBYU said:


> Really? Can we see a purchase receipt just so we know what you claimed is true?


Yes it's secondhand, but I was initially looking at the website and reading threads about potential discounts. That's how I ended up here asking about the OR2. It just happened someone listed the model I wanted last night.









The sales thread


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> What is was, was a hypocrite who engaged in illegal activity persecuting someone else who used to engage in illegal activity. How's your Tisell clasp and calipers?
> 
> This thread needs to be moderated. No one interested in Ginault will care about your FTC Guidelines, and people who care about FTC guidelines never wanted to get a Ginault anyway.
> 
> Just stop.


You're attacking the wrong person with the FTC guidelines....but at least you're consistent with your patterns of treatment.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

hwa said:


> How about the burglar working in your town? Gonna send him a few bucks, too? He's a one-man act, hardly worth holding to the law.
> 
> This conversation should've been left dead, if only because the adherents just dont care. They never have. Geez, this last couple of days, y'all have actually been discussing how to put rolex parts into your Ginault, as if folks cant figure out what that's all about!
> 
> ...


What's wrong with being about to fit aftermarket parts into the Ginault Ocean Rover? Plenty of aftermarket parts are made to fit Rolex watches too, inserts, bracelet, ect. Your argument makes zero sense.

I like how now you need to make up and announce an explanation of why you still follow the Ginault thread. LOL

You should just hang out in the sub-par Submariner homage thread with your mates. And let us who truly understand the value and quality of of the Ocean Rover do the talking.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> You're attacking the wrong person with the FTC guidelines....but at least you're consistent with your patterns of treatment.


Mr Rep is back!!! Did you get temp banned for trying to act all clean and mighty while in reality, you deal with replica trades on the rep forums?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Citizen V said:


> Just like in RyeGuy's case, people keep replying. People apparently want to keep the discussion going based on that. I would have been content if the conversation ended pages ago when I thought MrAuto and I were in agreement about something.
> 
> How about this? *I'll *be the bigger man and stop responding because apparently everyone else in this thread is incapable of it. This is also purely for my Ego just like the email I sent the FTC that actually won't do anything. :roll:


Lol, so you actually sent an email to the FTC asking them to pursue action against a watch that many members bought (including yourself) and come here to brag about it? You are a bigger *censored* than I thought, haha. (Hint: "bigger man" is not the adjective I was looking for).

Anyway, enjoy your hand built in USA Ginault, ha!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> If I'm understanding the first part of your post, your basic premise is that, whatever the legality of what Ginault is doing, as long as Ginault's customers are cool with it, nobody should worry about it. Maybe I'm old enough to remember when "rule of law" meant something. Whatever, dude, knock yourself out.
> 
> As for the "liquid" in liquid retina display, that's some noncontextualized nonsense right there. Don't waste my time with that weak sauce.


Just curious. Do you own a Rolex?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> You're attacking the wrong person with the FTC guidelines....but at least you're consistent with your patterns of treatment.


The FTC guidelines "attack" was more a general/broad statement.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> Just curious. Do you own a Rolex?


Personally, I think you got him lawyered.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

DanBYU said:


> Personally, I think you got him lawyered.


I own a Rolex, big whoop. Never wear it. Holding it for my son.

Also own a law degree, and i live in my own house. Hope you're enjoying your parents' basement.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I simply don't think a few strangers opinions of me on the internet matter in reality.

After watching this thread for a very long time, anyone with a counter opinion to the brand perhaps sees the brand apologists like this:








This is harmless fun with this GIF, so relax. No one is being attacked. Find the humor in it and take a deep breath. It's a watch.

You guys that love your watch, that's great. I'm very happy for you. That me and some others have a different opinion should mean absolutely nothing to you at all. Perhaps leaving it at that is the proper way to interact moving forward.

If you want to flame me for commenting again, that says more about you than it does about me. I frankly don't put any stock in the opinions of strangers.

Enjoy the watch. Enjoy the brand. The pics are cool. The two I owned were very nice and well made.

TTFN


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

hwa said:


> If I'm understanding the first part of your post, your basic premise is that, whatever the legality of what Ginault is doing, as long as Ginault's customers are cool with it, nobody should worry about it. Maybe I'm old enough to remember when "rule of law" meant something. Whatever, dude, knock yourself out.
> 
> As for the "liquid" in liquid retina display, that's some noncontextualized nonsense right there. Don't waste my time with that weak sauce.


I didn't say we should ignore all illegal matters but if it's something that has zero negative effect on the consumer then hell yea it should be ingored (IMO)

We're not liivng in the dark ages anymore pal! Rule of law does mean something but not every single law has to be followed and enforced.

Here in the Uk the Salmon act of 1986 makes it illegal to handle fish in suspicious circumstances

It's also illegal to beat or shake and rug or carpet in the street after 8pm or on sundays.

Do you think I should be arrested and charged if I should happen to walk down an alleyway at night with a piece of Salmon?

How many police officers do you think are out here riding around looking people shaking carpets after 8pm?

At one point in time maybe these laws would have had some kind of effect on others. Nowadays it means nothing! the enforcers of the law have much more important matters to focus on and the public are more than happy with others walking around at night with fish and shaking our rugs on a Sunday

I'm sure the Law (in this case the FTC) are more than capable of doing thier job without intervention from taddletales.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> I own a Rolex, big whoop. Never wear it. Holding it for my son.
> 
> Also own a law degree, and i live in my own house. Hope you're enjoying your parents' basement.
> 
> ...


LMAO.

Got em.

Of course you own a Rolex. We could smell it a mile away. The only people that care about the Ethics of Ginault are when they own a Rollie. I bet you don't care about anything remotely ethical on this minute level outside of this "issue".

Only Rolex Sub owners care about people seemingly beneath them that enjoy the same quality watch for 1/10th the price.

Why don't you put that law degree to good use and actually prosecute crimes that cause problems in the world and stop caring about insignificant crap like this?


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

Really frustrating when subscribing this thread, that a few people seems to do and endless discussion over everything that has nothing to do with the watch :/

So when a notification pops up, it’s only this discussion over and over again. Real shame for those who wants to read reviews about the watch and thoughts about the watch itself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I simply don't think a few strangers opinions of me on the internet matter in reality.
> 
> After watching this thread for a very long time, anyone with a counter opinion to the brand perhaps sees the brand apologists like this:
> 
> ...


"Find the humor in it and take a deep breath. It's a watch. " he says, after starting a thread on Ginault, conspiring to take Ginault down, making repeated emails and calls to legal personell to find out a way to take down the company.

Just to get outed to enjoy replicas and have an ulterior motive with Ginault.

"Find the humor in it and take a deep breath. It's a watch. " he says.

You can't make this stuff up folks.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> "Find the humor in it and take a deep breath. It's a watch. " he says, after starting a thread on Ginault, conspiring to take Ginault down, making repeated emails and calls to legal personell to find out a way to take down the company.
> 
> Just to get outed to enjoy replicas and have an ulterior motive with Ginault.
> 
> ...


My quote: "If you want to flame me for commenting again, that says more about you than it does about me. I frankly don't put any stock in the opinions of strangers."

Thanks for proving my point!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

michelskovbo said:


> Really frustrating when subscribing this thread, that a few people seems to do and endless discussion over everything that has nothing to do with the watch :/
> 
> So when a notification pops up, it's only this discussion over and over again. Real shame for those who wants to read reviews about the watch and thoughts about the watch itself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah this thread needs to be moderated. Whenever someone asks a seemingly innocent question that should be answered with one reply and done, the illegal watch trader Dec and the law-degree-rolex-having-but-big-whoop-owner hwa rear their heads and muck the place up with more useless drivel.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

hwa said:


> I own a Rolex, big whoop. Never wear it. Holding it for my son.
> 
> Also own a law degree, and i live in my own house. Hope you're enjoying your parents' basement.
> 
> ...


I said he got you lawyered with the liquid display argument, genius. And it was you that threw a weak sauce counter. I can imagine you in court when you can't come up with a good reason to object, you go "objection your honor.........................hm......hm.....that was weak sauce.....LOL

I have no idea what you meant by the last sentence. But I have a feeling my parent's basement is probably bigger than the "house" you live in.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

michelskovbo said:


> Really frustrating when subscribing this thread, that a few people seems to do and endless discussion over everything that has nothing to do with the watch :/
> 
> So when a notification pops up, it's only this discussion over and over again. Real shame for those who wants to read reviews about the watch and thoughts about the watch itself.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try Ginault Watch Club on FB. It's a hater-free place with actual owners to the watch and just want to talk about the Ocean Rover for its merits.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Your honor, I have a law degree. The defendant's argument is null and void due to weak sauce, and he lives in his parent's basement.

I rest my case.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> I didn't say we should ignore all illegal matters but if it's something that has zero negative effect on the consumer then hell yea it should be ingored (IMO)
> 
> We're not liivng in the dark ages anymore pal! Rule of law does mean something but not every single law has to be followed and enforced.
> 
> ...


Actually, it's the lawbreakers who most benefit from the blind eye. That's why whistleblowers are encouraged.

Anyway, I never put this at the top of any list of horribles. This is just banter during breaks from more important things. Im clear on the context.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> My quote: "If you want to flame me for commenting again, that says more about you than it does about me. I frankly don't put any stock in the opinions of strangers."
> 
> Thanks for proving my point!


I wonder what your son and your fellow church members would think if they read about what you did. shame on you mr.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DanBYU said:


> Try Ginault Watch Club on FB. It's a hater-free place with actual owners to the watch and just want to talk about the Ocean Rover for its merits.


It would be really funny that actual watch aficionados had to leave the biggest watch forum to talk about a watch, wouldn't it? Surely there must be other options...


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Axinnon said:


> LMAO.
> 
> Got em.
> 
> ...


Actually, I just spent a week on the border trying to reverse the horrific administrative enforcement actions of the US government. If you want to preach, find a needier audience.

You assume way too much. The Rolex was a gift; I've got piles of affordables, which to me are more fun to own than the rolex.

If there are pretenders about, it's the GOC, who break their arms patting themselves on their backs for buying the "next best thing" to a Rolex. If you're hunting a watch snob, you haven't found him yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> Your honor, I have a law degree. The defendant's argument is null and void due to weak sauce, and he lives in his parent's basement.
> 
> I rest my case.


I almost fell off my chair laughing!!!!


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

hwa said:


> Actually, I just spent a week on the border trying to reverse the horrific administrative enforcement actions of the US government. If you want to preach, find a needier audience.
> 
> You assume way too much. The Rolex was a gift; I've got piles of affordables, which to me are more fun to own than the rolex.
> 
> ...


I don't get the sour grape mentality. It is truly the Ocean Rover is the next best thing to a Rolex in terms of quality, fit and finish with an affordable price, while having all the most endearing features of vintage models, what's wrong with that? MKII tried its best to mimic the vintage MilSub case shape try to stay "true". Ginault paid its tribute to the classic 5 digit midcase and we thank them for it. There is a reason why Ginault and MKII are loved.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Actually, I just spent a week on the border trying to reverse the horrific administrative enforcement actions of the US government. If you want to preach, find a needier audience.
> 
> You assume way too much. The Rolex was a gift; I've got piles of affordables, which to me are more fun to own than the rolex.
> 
> ...


Well, you can say that, but I'll just go with Occam's Razor on this one.

The *overwhelmingly* vast majority of people wanting to tear down Ginault are Rolex owners from every single source and forum I have seen online. How they harbor so much hatred on such a minute and relatively harmless issue stems from the fact that they don't like their almost 5 figure watch getting copied (and in my opinion, improved) with equal quality.

The fact that you're yet another Ginault antagonist and own a Rolex sure sells the story to me, regardless of how you try to spin it.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> I simply don't think a few strangers opinions of me on the internet matter in reality.
> 
> After watching this thread for a very long time, anyone with a counter opinion to the brand perhaps sees the brand apologists like this:
> 
> ...


Sorry guys but I actually agree with him this time. That's growth right there, good for you December. Now it's time for you to leave.

To the "weak sauce" lawyer: I feel sorry for your clients. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Aw guys, I’ve got an OR, a SubC and a MKii Kingston (and I own my own house)

So I’ve no clue where I fit into all of this.  :think:

I just like watches, that’s why I go to watch forums

As I’ve only really commented about the possibility of fitting aftermarket parts onto the OR, I’ll leave it there I think... if OR owners can get service consumables from the major parts suppliers then I think that’s great. 

If it’s suddenly bad form from a WIS perspective to have the option of aftermarket parts made by company A that fit brand B, then we just killed the entire Seiko scene man, like stone cold dead.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

mrmorfo said:


> Lol, so you actually sent an email to the FTC asking them to pursue action against a watch that many members bought (including yourself) and come here to brag about it? You are a bigger *censored* than I thought, haha. (Hint: "bigger man" is not the adjective I was looking for).
> 
> Anyway, enjoy your hand built in USA Ginault, ha!


I'll respond since this is no longer about the FTC guidelines.

I'm not "bragging" about it. In an earlier post, I defended myself because someone claimed I "targeting" Ginault. I partially defended myself by stating I actually had an interest in buying one. 2 people have called me about on that, so I'm posting it as proof.....

The thread is getting ridiculous. Apparently I'm not allowed to buy a Ginault without being insulted it. What a fantastic fan base.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> 1. What? You don't believe what the FTC said about guidelines they set and enforce? Even when there's undeniable evidence the enforcement occurred?
> 
> 2. There's no point in arguing this because you've clearly never read the FTC guidelines or any of my previous posts, since I've rehashed this over and over.
> 
> 3. The FTC is actually having a workshop (businesses invited) on September 29th where they're discussing the Made in USA standard and any need for changes. I'd link the article but it was on the FTC's website and apparently you don't trust them.


OK, you keep missing the bigger picture here:

1. I doubt the FTC will give a RAT's ASS about what Ginault is doing given the small quantities they sell. Put another way, if the FTC is spending it's money going after small entrepreneurs vs. the big guys are you really getting value for tax dollar? OR is it just that you feel that your tax dollar is best spent satisfying your own personal picayune annoyance with Ginault and your ego?

2. MADE IN THE USA used to mean quality.... Chevrolet cars, Crosley refrigerators, Zenith Television, Motorola, Hamilton watches, etc. Products that would last and were best on the planet. Today, it doesn't mean so much outside of instilling some sense of nationalistic pride in the purchaser. Outside of the USA, American Built is no a selling point in most cases. Seems to me that quality and standards certifications have more meaning than country of origin. Can't understand why this is so important while the bureaucracy simultaneously is cutting back on other forms of consumer protection, EPA, usda etc. Yeah I looked at the FTC workshop. My take SO WHAT. Looks like a good make work project.

3. Again, there are more pressing problems in your country that you need to rally around vs this FTC bulls**t. As a CITIZEN only you can prevent the current decline into becoming the "Star Spangled Banana Republic".


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> I'll respond since this is no longer about the FTC guidelines.
> 
> I'm not "bragging" about it. In an earlier post, I defended myself because someone claimed I "targeting" Ginault. I partially defended myself by stating I actually had an interest in buying one. 2 people have called me about on that, so I'm posting it as proof.....
> 
> The thread is getting ridiculous. Apparently I'm not allowed to buy a Ginault without being insulted it. What a fantastic fan base.


I don't get this strange mentality. So you say you like the watch and support the brand by buying it (second hand) And yet you don't like the watch is hand build in America?

As a true supporter of the brand, and a true supporter of US labor workforce, I feel like it is our government and its dated rules that's making us less competitive. If they can be smart like the Swiss, and adjust the rules a bit then many of these assembly jobs would come back to the US. I think brands like Monta would also agree.

So as a true supporter as you claimed to be, wouldn't you want to lobby for the relaxation on this rule? hm.....I ponder


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Citizen V said:


> I'll respond since this is no longer about the FTC guidelines.
> 
> I'm not "bragging" about it. In an earlier post, I defended myself because someone claimed I "targeting" Ginault. I partially defended myself by stating I actually had an interest in buying one. 2 people have called me about on that, so I'm posting it as proof.....
> 
> The thread is getting ridiculous. Apparently I'm not allowed to buy a Ginault without being insulted it. What a fantastic fan base.


Don't twist the argument, mate. I'm just laughing at you because you bought a watch and at the same time you emailed a government authority asking them to take action about that same watch brand. I really find it a bit funny. But it's just internet banter, of course I've got absolutely nothing against you. I don't even know you, you might even be a great guy, who knows.

The thread only gets ridiculous every time people appear from nowhere posting stuff against this watch, then the antiginault lurkers feel encouraged to chime in and start their crusade again. It usually lasts from two days to a week. I find it boring because it not only derails the discussion but also intimidates some members who prefer not to post interesting stuff in the middle of a heated conversation.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> I'll respond since this is no longer about the FTC guidelines.
> 
> I'm not "bragging" about it. In an earlier post, I defended myself because someone claimed I "targeting" Ginault. I partially defended myself by stating I actually had an interest in buying one. 2 people have called me about on that, so I'm posting it as proof.....
> 
> The thread is getting ridiculous. Apparently I'm not allowed to buy a Ginault without being insulted it. What a fantastic fan base.


Nah its not like that

You made some fair points but I think some of us (including me) were just a little confused as to why you would go out of your way to complain to authorities about a company you've bought into, knowing it could potentially effect those those still waiting for thiers.

Anyway enjoy the watch when it arrives, Dont worry about those words on the dial and try to enjoy it for what it is.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

Talk about a waste of time reading the last ~10 pages of this thread


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> Nah its not like that
> 
> You made some fair points but I think some of us (including me) were just a little confused as to why you would go out of your way to complain to authorities about a company you've bought into, knowing it could potentially effect those those still waiting for thiers.
> 
> ...


Oh, I can explain that. What people are overlooking is *when *I sent the email:


Citizen V said:


> To your point about calling the FTC, I actually emailed them a month ago.


This wasn't something I sent a day or two before I went looking to buy one. If you also think about what happened a month ago, it may make even more sense but I'm not going to further any discussion about that or FTC guidelines.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Citizen V said:


> Oh, I can explain that. What people are overlooking is *when *I sent the email:
> 
> This wasn't something I sent a day or two before I went looking to buy one. If you also think about what happened a month ago, it may make even more sense but I'm not going to further any discussion about that or FTC guidelines.


I don't really care about FTC politics but I am curious as to why you called to complain about a watch just to cave in and buy it a month later.

What changed?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> Oh, I can explain that. What people are overlooking is *when *I sent the email:
> 
> This wasn't something I sent a day or two before I went looking to buy one. If you also think about what happened a month ago, it may make even more sense but I'm not going to further any discussion about that or FTC guidelines.


Ok but how did you go from seeing that writing on the dial, deciding it shouldn't be there and reporting the company to FTC to then wanting to and eventually purchasing one?

Not getting at you here I'm just curious.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

DouglasI said:


> ...
> 2. MADE IN THE USA used to mean quality.... Chevrolet cars, Crosley refrigerators, Zenith Television, Motorola, Hamilton watches, etc. Products that would last and were best on the planet. Today, it doesn't mean so much outside of instilling some sense of nationalistic pride in the purchaser. Outside of the USA, American Built is no a selling point in most cases. Seems to me that quality and standards certifications have more meaning than country of origin. Can't understand why this is so important while the bureaucracy simultaneously is cutting back on other forms of consumer protection, EPA, usda etc. Yeah I looked at the FTC workshop. My take SO WHAT. Looks like a good make work project.
> ...


There is something to this -- in order for "Made in USA" to be worth regulating, it has to mean something valuable to the consumer. Otherwise, what is the point? So what DOES it mean? I don't think it means quality ... not anymore, the US is not particularly known for quality (or lack of it). Likewise it's not nationalistic pride (not primarily anyway). But by supporting products which are made in whole or in part in the USA, one might wish to support the economy of the USA. I believe there is some value in that.

Likewise, in order for regulating a term to be effective, it has to be WELL DEFINED. An term that means made only on the Moon would be useless since there are no such products that would qualify. Likewise if a term meant made somewhere on Planet Earth, it would be also useless since EVERY product would qualify. It seems to me that the Swiss may be doing it right. I think their rule is 60% of the value (in products or labor) allows for the "Swiss Made" though I am sure it's defined more exactly than I just did. I'm willing to buy (or at least factor into my buying decision) a product which has at least some percentage of its parts made in the US and/or some percentage of its assembly done in the US.

But I don't care at all about a label that indicates that absolutely every part and every part of assembly was in the US because I feel like it might as well say the Moon. If the term has a clear and effective definition, then having the government regulate it and make companies follow the rules becomes a lot more palatable. But make the term concise (so it will fit on a watch dial). Might as well take it from the swiss and just say US Made. If you want to, make the company define the percentage of labor and materials in the instruction manual.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> Anyway enjoy the watch when it arrives, Dont worry about those words on the dial and try to enjoy it for what it is.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


This in general, or perhaps even

Enjoy the watch - don't worry about those words on the internet and try to bond with it for what it is, if it doesn't work out, flip it.

At the end of the day, it's a watch. If anything about the watch itself isn't right with you then move on. If anything about the company behind the watch makes you feel uneasy then move on.

It's a watch. There's literally dozens of other homage/pastiche submariners to chose from.

Decide on a personal level if alls fine and dandy with owning any watch you buy, and if not move on.

Accept not all other people will see the watch as you do, don't waste time trying to change anybody's mind.

Some people will be all cool and the gang about Ginault, others vehemently won't be. These are counter points that are unlikely to be reconcilable.

Sure fanbois can be evangelical... but so can haters and trolls.

Try not to rise to the bait. On both sides.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

Anyone got any Ginnie wrist shots? Where are the blue smurf lume, black date no cyclops pics at?!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

MattG05 said:


> Anyone got any Ginnie wrist shots? Where are the blue smurf lume, black date no cyclops pics at?!


There you go (I am so scared to post...)


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

Beautiful, thank you! I really am caught between the smurf and sand lume... Do you find the smurf to be too sterile on the dial?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

MattG05 said:


> Beautiful, thank you! I really am caught between the smurf and sand lume... Do you find the smurf to be too sterile on the dial?


No, why? I love the white markers and the refreshing contrast of the blue lume.

As others have said, I would tale some lines of text out, but it does not really bother.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

DanBYU said:


> I don't get this strange mentality. So you say you like the watch and support the brand by buying it (second hand) And yet you don't like the watch is hand build in America?
> 
> As a true supporter of the brand, and a true supporter of US labor workforce, I feel like it is our government and its dated rules that's making us less competitive. If they can be smart like the Swiss, and adjust the rules a bit then many of these assembly jobs would come back to the US. I think brands like Monta would also agree.
> 
> So as a true supporter as you claimed to be, wouldn't you want to lobby for the relaxation on this rule? hm.....I ponder


Funny. The relaxation of Swiss Made rules actually supports offshoring of manufacturing and related jobs, saving only low-paying assembly work for the Swiss. So, your point is good, but you prove the converse.

If you're a supporter of American labor, you should support retention of high standards for American Made watches, and perhaps that will lead to a return of American manufacturing.

That's precisely the source of my gripe with Ginault: claiming American made, when it's not. Not because of some Trumpy, jingoistic nonsense, but because I'd like to see a return of the industry to the US. Ginault isn't offering that, but it is trading on that. That's the gist of the thing.

Folks who dont care about American manufacturing or American labor markets might not care about this, and might care only about a good watch for the dollar. Others of us do care, and that's why some of us continue to keep Ginault on blast.

What makes us less competitive internationally are those pesky workforce and environmental regulations, to name just two root causes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Dec1968 said:


> If you can petition to get that thread unlocked, then absolutely. That was the entire point of that thread. Some folks had to make it a personal attack on me versus being grateful for what it was. They have themselves to blame for it crawling back into this thread.


Ha ha - Well, thanks so much anyway. See, that's how much I follow all this. I didn't even know of that thread's whereabouts, nor that it had been chained up. That's too funny. You did a great job creating that thread. The whole lot migrated right away.

Oh well. Thanks again. You done good. LOL Now if you could just throw a bone in some other direction 

RD


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Funny. The relaxation of Swiss Made rules actually supports offshoring of manufacturing and related jobs, saving only low-paying assembly work for the Swiss. So, your point is good, but you prove the converse.
> 
> If you're a supporter of American labor, you should support retention of high standards for American Made watches, and perhaps that will lead to a return of American manufacturing.
> 
> ...


This is exactly my point when I said I would like to see more photos from Ginault of their US manufacturing.

We can recognize the point regarding the legality of the "Hand Built..." phrase when Ginault clearly states certain critical aspects of the watch are sourced overseas (movement springs, jewels, shock absorbing system, etc.), but if they posted a series of photos of their case manufacturing process in the USA, or their bracelet manufacturing process in the USA, or bezels being broached in the USA, that would be meaningful in my mind.

Heck, even some photos of the watches being assembled by hand would be interesting.

I think these types of photos might silence (or at least reduce) some of the critics, and I honestly would applaud even the most humble of efforts to bring horology back to the States.

This is also my frustration with the Weiss tattling. I believe Cameron Weiss is honestly trying to create an American Made watch. The guy is a trained WOSTEP watchmaker, a CNC programmer, and a machinist. For someone to go out of their way to report this micro brand to the FTC for failure to comply with the letter of the "Made in America" definition is, in my mind, shameful.

What if, as a result of the FTC sending a cease and desist letter, Cameron Weiss had said "Forget it. I can't afford to replace all these dials and case backs. Cheaper to just fold the company." Would watch enthusiasts be better served?


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

You know when you open up your app and there is more than 70 replies in the Ginault thread that the trolls are back in town. I wish people would just put the 3 or 4 problem children on ignore and not reply. It would make for a more enjoyable thread. I don't see their posts but when everyone is quoting them it shows up. I think I might have even seen a who has a bigger basement argument. Jeez

Anyways









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> This is exactly my point when I said I would like to see more photos from Ginault of their US manufacturing.
> 
> We can recognize the point regarding the legality of the "Hand Built..." phrase when Ginault clearly states certain critical aspects of the watch are sourced overseas (movement springs, jewels, shock absorbing system, etc.), but if they posted a series of photos of their case manufacturing process in the USA, or their bracelet manufacturing process in the USA, or bezels being broached in the USA, that would be meaningful in my mind.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. Sadly, most of the folks around here are too busy attacking to listen. There are real policy interests at stake; it's not reasonably distilled to a "couple words on the dial," that most here say they would ignore.

I'm not telling anyone to buy American, or to support American manufacturing or labor (although I happily would engage in the discussion). I've only been trying to say, through many distractions and attacks, that if you are going to market on the flag, be honest about it.

Not all FTC violations are equal. Weiss and Ginault, in my mind, are not equivalent cases, even if their claims of a usa-built movement are somewhat similar.

I'd love to see Weiss succeed, and if I believed Ginault was trying to do the same as Weiss, I'd root for Ginault, too. Ginault created its own credibility gap, which is too bad.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

hwa said:


> I agree with all of this. Sadly, most of the folks around here are too busy attacking to listen. There are real policy interests at stake; it's not reasonably distilled to a "couple words on the dial," that most here say they would ignore.


Most of us here do listen! You could of saved us all the hassle by making your points clear in the first instance. You came in here on the attack, with issues about people discussing the idea of using non branded (but legal) rolex parts and your original statement on the FTC issue wasn't based around policy interests it was more about Ginault not obeying "the rule of law" which I disagreed with.

I understand your perspective now and its a very constructive one, thanks for sharing.

As I said to the taddletale earlier I'm under no illusion that the company is perfect. the product they make is excellent but they do have a lot of work to do and a few issues to address if they plan on being around long term.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## butterflyer (Jul 17, 2019)

MattG05 said:


> Beautiful, thank you! I really am caught between the smurf and sand lume...


This might help. Caveat: the watch on the left has a flat crystal with AR. Guessing the watch on the right has no AR. I don't know who took each photo; thanks if they're yours.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> What if, as a result of the FTC sending a cease and desist letter, Cameron Weiss had said "Forget it. I can't afford to replace all these dials and case backs. Cheaper to just fold the company." Would watch enthusiasts be better served?


Sadly, I can't help to think that this is exactly what some people here want. They would love to see a white page with a "closed" sign and a couple of paragraphs explaining why Ginault has closed its doors.

What they fail to realise is the disappointment it would cause to many of us (not to mention the lack of support for replacement parts, repairs, etc). Would it be worth, in order to get yourselves a virtual pat in the back and a "yeah, I did it" feeling? I'm sure it wouldn't.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

GMArthur said:


> You know when you open up your app and there is more than 70 replies in the Ginault thread that the trolls are back in town. I wish people would just put the 3 or 4 problem children on ignore and not reply. It would make for a more enjoyable thread. I don't see their posts but when everyone is quoting them it shows up. I think I might have even seen a who has a bigger basement argument. Jeez
> 
> Anyways
> 
> ...


Agree. The ignore option just doesn't cut it. Not only you see their quotes but also younger a very intriguing message when they post saying XXXXX has posted but you can't see it because that user is in your ignore list. Come on! It's almost inviting you to remove him from there, lol!


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

hwa said:


> Funny. The relaxation of Swiss Made rules actually supports offshoring of manufacturing and related jobs, saving only low-paying assembly work for the Swiss. So, your point is good, but you prove the converse.


No, the relaxation of Swiss Made standard DIDN"T support or encourage offshoring of manufacturing. The offshoring of manufacturing ALREADY happened (why do you like to present false facts?). By placing a new standard it not only retained but also increased skilled labor's job market. It also helped existing major Swiss brands (the entry to almost mid-level ones) have a fighting chance. i.e. for the general public who is just looking for a watch (the non WIS type) who would want a Tissot, a Mido, a Hamilton, or a Longine if it's not "Swiss Made" Imagine the jobs saved at the corporate level.

With the relaxation of these rules, it also created more job opportunities. Take brands like Steinhart for example, would Wolfgang choose to have his products assembled in Switzerland if he couldn't label them as Swiss made? Imagine the job opportunities Steinhart alone created for the Swiss.



hwa said:


> If you're a supporter of American labor, you should support retention of high standards for American Made watches, and perhaps that will lead to a return of American manufacturing.


I am a supporter of American labor which is why I think watches like Weiss, Ginault and RGM should be allowed to label itself as such, not putting a chock hold on them. When a dated system is in place it simply encourages non achievement. I am sure there are many other aspiring US microbrands who'd also like to be able to bring portions of its production and assembly back home. But what's the point of all that if they can't even show it off? Might as well just have everything done in China.



hwa said:


> That's precisely the source of my gripe with Ginault: claiming American made, when it's not. Not because of some Trumpy, jingoistic nonsense, but because I'd like to see a return of the industry to the US. Ginault isn't offering that, but it is trading on that. That's the gist of the thing.


Again, Ginault didn't claim American made, why are you trying so hard to misinterpret the message and twist the facts? You and I both know they already listed what was outsourced and everything. No one who bought an Ocean Rover thinks it is 100% US-made.

End of day, the quality of the Ocean Rover is simply tremendous. I have never seen anything that came out of China looking this good from head to toe. Nor have I seen any ''Swiss Made" ones offering such a package at this price range. Everything about this watch is just beyond words.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

When I bought mine, the caseback literally read, “Made in USA.” I suppose I’m biased by the facts. 

As for the rest, yeah, I disagree. The relaxation of “Swiss made” standards opened the door for swiss guys to compete with high end swiss mfrs by selling chinese goods labeled as swiss. Your steinhart is an example. If you dont think that dilutes the value of swiss mfr, and encourages offshoring, I cant help you. 

You’re free to disagree. But your stubborn adherence to non-facts doesn’t disprove my point. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

hwa said:


> When I bought mine, the caseback literally read, "Made in USA." I suppose I'm biased by the facts.


Mine doesn't have anything like that on the caseback. So, perhaps you are presenting partial facts by choice? The deliberate omission of the events and course of action taken, to me smells fishy.



hwa said:


> As for the rest, yeah, I disagree. The relaxation of "Swiss made" standards opened the door for swiss guys to compete with high end swiss mfrs by selling chinese goods labeled as swiss. Your steinhart is an example. If you dont think that dilutes the value of swiss mfr, and encourages offshoring, I cant help you.


As a lawyer, you seriously have an issue with focusing on the issue. We NEVER talked about the diluting the value. We were focused on whether or not it encourages offshoring production. Anyone with half a brain can see through your half baked conjecture. Globalization and offshoring was already happening like it or not. The Swiss changed the standard as a remedy/consequence to the inevitable. You make it sound like because they loosened the rules so brands quickly started their offshore production.



hwa said:


> You're free to disagree. But your stubborn adherence to non-facts doesn't disprove my point.


I disagree simply because your half-baked theory cannot even pass a simple logical discovery, cannot convince anyone who knows a little bit about how things work in the world. Don't blame people for not agreeing to it. You need to do better than that.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

Had to see what this would look like, may just roll with it for a while. G dang I love my Ginault- it's hard to wear my other watches with this in my collection.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

DanBYU said:


> Again, Ginault didn't claim American made, why are you trying so hard to misinterpret the message and twist the facts? You and I both know they already listed what was outsourced and everything.


Except.....

















http://calibercorner.com/ginault-caliber-7275/

Just throwing this out there.....you be the judge.

It's a fine watch and it's well made. As a brand, Ginault doesn't need to add the 'assembled here or there' controversy to stand on its own two feet. Read the comments from the linked article to understand. If they simply removed any reference to where it's made, the watch would still be the same watch. It's an odd choice to say (previously) 'Made in the USA' on the older caseback (my first one said that, my second one had the newer caseback that didn't). Why reference it at all?


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Except..... Why reference it at all?


Except......why pretend you are all clean and mighty while you deal in replica trades?? My question to you still stands, how would your son and church members feel about you when they found out about the type of person you are?


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

DanBYU said:


> Except......why pretend you are all clean and mighty while you deal in replica trades?? My question to you still stands, how would your son and church members feel about you when they found out about the type of person you are?


Oh gee! I'd be shunned!









Also.....


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Ginault sucks. End of story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Anyway......for years Ginault has had that same issue come up (US made claims). It would be nice to see the company take a position and either provide some more documentation to support the claims or remove them entirely. 

They've established that they can build a watch that people will pay for. No one who has handled one can say it's a poorly executed product. Wouldn't mind seeing that 'loop of doubt' close, so to speak. Eliminate all doubt. 

I haven't changed my position on the company, but for those who do love the brand, all of the 'stink' goes away for you (and them) when that happens. Would sure be nice to see that put to rest for you folks.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

DanBYU said:


> Mine doesn't have anything like that on the caseback. So, perhaps you are presenting partial facts by choice? The deliberate omission of the events and course of action taken, to me smells fishy.


This is the original caseback...
(link for source https://wristwatchreview.com/2017/0...the-wrist-and-whats-really-going-on-here/amp/)


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Guys, please, stop feeding the trolls. Just add them to your ignore list, it's definitely not worth it. Report it to a moderator if you feel it's inappropriate and block, that's it.

And please stop quoting them, lol!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> This is the original caseback...
> (link for source https://wristwatchreview.com/2017/0...the-wrist-and-whats-really-going-on-here/amp/)


You buy watches that say Rolex on them that aren't made by Rolex. You initially denied it and made up stories of your father to make yourself seem innocent and then had to come clean when irrefutable proof came in. Why are you back in this topic, your word is literally lower than dirt. You're the last person people would take seriously on this topic.

You discussing Ginault is just never going to go well.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> You buy watches that say Rolex on them that aren't made by Rolex. You initially denied it and made up stories of your father to make yourself seem innocent and then had to come clean when irrefutable proof came in. Why are you back in this topic, your word is literally lower than dirt. You're the last person people would take seriously on this topic.
> 
> You discussing Ginault is just never going to go well.


I'm not going to engage in your personal attacks.

https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/

2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I'm not going to engage in your personal attacks.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/
> 
> 2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.


Don't engage in personally attacking Ginault. You had some sense of shame to steer clear from this topic but I guess you don't have any more shame to feel anymore. That in itself is a shame.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> Don't engage in personally attacking Ginault. You had some sense of shame to steer clear from this topic but I guess you don't have any more shame to feel anymore. That in itself is a shame.


https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/

2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Ginault effed up with the caseback and not only do the watches no longer bear those words, they’ve publicly offered to send owners of the ‘made in’ caseback a new version that doesn’t have that inscription. 

They think that “assembled/hand built” is ok because (for the sake of argument) they are screwed together stateside, but the rules say it’s not ok to use that term and I think going forward they should drop that term completely. 

RE the actual watch, they’ve never been shy about stating Chinese shock absorbers, Swiss jewels, etc

RE “into the brand” please! I mean hope it works out for them and they expand their styles and their range and ultimately their market share but right now? Gimme a break, they’re yet another microbrand that’s like twenty seconds old and currently a one trick pony.

That pony is pretty trick though and even the naysayers aren’t arguing the VFM proposition that the OR represents.

That alone is worth the price of admission for many owners, and no offence, I’ve been to America more than once, both East and West, great place, lovely people, but I’m not American, I’m not a US citizen, I don’t live there and “made in America” means nothing to me.

If you’re a proud US citizen, then I get why fallacious manufacturing claims grind your gears, I’ve no dog in that fight and every sympathy.

But spurious claims aside, it’s a great watch, with a lot of anecdotal evidence of great customer service and frankly that’s good enough for many owners.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/
> 
> 2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.


This is not a personal attack. I am making a factual observation. You buy illegal replicas. I am making the logical connection that a person dealing with logical replicas would not exactly be held in high regard for an accusation of fraud against Ginault.

Where is this "personal attack"? I'm stating obvious truths here.

It is not disrespectful or unkind to lay the facts on the table. You can't brush inconvenient truths as personal attacks just because you don't like it. You claimed the same "personal attack" bs when I asked about the Tisell clasp. Everything you don't like is a personal attack to you.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> Ginault effed up with the caseback and not only do the watches no longer bear those words, they've publicly offered to send owners of the 'made in' caseback a new version that doesn't have that inscription.
> 
> They think that "assembled/hand built" is ok because (for the sake of argument) they are screwed together stateside, but the rules say it's not ok to use that term and I think going forward they should drop that term completely.
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it any better!

AMEN

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> This is not a personal attack. I am making a factual observation. You buy illegal replicas. I am making the logical connection that a person dealing with logical replicas would not exactly be held in high regard for an accusation of fraud against Ginault.


https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/

9 . No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a Moderator or site Administrators. In general, any posts that involve the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is strictly prohibited.

Now if you're done going after me, can we get back to discussing Ginault?


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> Ginault effed up with the caseback and not only do the watches no longer bear those words, they've publicly offered to send owners of the 'made in' caseback a new version that doesn't have that inscription.
> 
> They think that "assembled/hand built" is ok because (for the sake of argument) they are screwed together stateside, but the rules say it's not ok to use that term and I think going forward they should drop that term completely.
> 
> ...


Pretty much what I've been saying from the start.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

DanBYU said:


> Mine doesn't have anything like that on the caseback. So, perhaps you are presenting partial facts by choice? The deliberate omission of the events and course of action taken, to me smells fishy.
> 
> As a lawyer, you seriously have an issue with focusing on the issue. We NEVER talked about the diluting the value. We were focused on whether or not it encourages offshoring production. Anyone with half a brain can see through your half baked conjecture. Globalization and offshoring was already happening like it or not. The Swiss changed the standard as a remedy/consequence to the inevitable. You make it sound like because they loosened the rules so brands quickly started their offshore production.
> 
> I disagree simply because your half-baked theory cannot even pass a simple logical discovery, cannot convince anyone who knows a little bit about how things work in the world. Don't blame people for not agreeing to it. You need to do better than that.


Happily, you're not a lawyer. That's a good thing for us all. You seem well qualified to be a utah politician, though, so perhaps youve got a future. Adios. Ignored.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/forum-rules-and-guidelines/
> 
> 9 . No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a Moderator or site Administrators. In general, any posts that involve the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is strictly prohibited.
> 
> Now if you're done going after me, can we get back to discussing Ginault?


I have the right to bring up factual evidence that you have ulterior motives and don't care about a single thing morally. I am within guidelines to bring these up as they are not personal attacks but facts. So I'm not done.



hwa said:


> Happily, you're not a lawyer. That's a good thing for us all. You seem well qualified to be a utah politician, though, so perhaps youve got a future. Adios. Ignored.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The fact that he has raised awesome points, and you have not rebuttaled them at all, but rather attack his character (weak logical fallacy) and ignored him shows how low the bar is to be an actual lawyer when he is better at raising an argument than you are.

At least you didn't dismiss his arguments this time via the weaksauce clause.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Ginault effed up with the caseback and not only do the watches no longer bear those words, they've publicly offered to send owners of the 'made in' caseback a new version that doesn't have that inscription.
> 
> They think that "assembled/hand built" is ok because (for the sake of argument) they are screwed together stateside, but the rules say it's not ok to use that term and I think going forward they should drop that term completely.
> 
> ...


That's what many of us have stated countless times, and unfortunately it doesn't stop the trolls coming in. It's a shame, to be honest, that certain group of individuals can't live without trying to displease others. Doesn't say anything good about them, though, no matter how high they want their moral ground to look.

Give it just a few days and it will pass. We will have pics of the ceramic prototypes and hopefully we will be able to go back on topic.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> That's what many of us have stated countless times, and unfortunately it doesn't stop the trolls coming in. It's a shame, to be honest, that certain group of individuals can't live without trying to displease others. Doesn't say anything good about them, though, no matter how high they want their moral ground to look.
> 
> Give it just a few days and it will pass. We will have pics of the ceramic prototypes and hopefully we will be able to go back on topic.


Oh man, once the Ginault 2.0 prototypes land and people will see the new ceramic bezel, the Rolex trolls will be crying over how good it looks compared to their rectangular 6 digit rocks they call the super case and cry about how crappy Ginault is while they're secretly they're upset they paid 10x the price for an inferior product.

If you think this is bad now, the upcoming influx of trolls will be quite the sight to see...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Axinnon said:


> This is not a personal attack. I am making a factual observation. You buy illegal replicas. I am making the logical connection that a person dealing with logical replicas would not exactly be held in high regard for an accusation of fraud against Ginault.
> 
> Where is this "personal attack"? I'm stating obvious truths here.
> 
> It is not disrespectful or unkind to lay the facts on the table. You can't brush inconvenient truths as personal attacks just because you don't like it. You claimed the same "personal attack" bs when I asked about the Tisell clasp. Everything you don't like is a personal attack to you.


Just ignore him, mate. Honestly. He has been completely obsessed with Ginault for a long time, we found he was also buying Rolex replicas and then probably felt guilty and got rid of everything (including the Ginault's). If you have to ignore only one person in any Ginault conversation, it's him. Hwa raises interesting points sometimes (although I still think this is not the right place for that), and Citizen V's rants about FTC rules ended up in him buying a Ginault, ha. But this guy... To be fair I don't even think he's 100% ok up there. Put him on ignore and never look back, you have nothing to gain discussing with him, and neither have the rest of us.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> Oh man, once the Ginault 2.0 prototypes land and people will see the new ceramic bezel, the Rolex trolls will be crying over how good it looks compared to their rectangular 6 digit rocks they call the super case and cry about how crappy Ginault is while they're secretly they're upset they paid 10x the price for an inferior product.
> 
> If you think this is bad now, the upcoming influx of trolls will be quite the sight to see...


Will you compare them to a Parnis and a Tisell as well?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Will you compare them to a Parnis and a Tisell as well?


Yep, I just might. Everything is comparable. I'm sure you'll compare them to your illegal goods if you know what I mean.



mrmorfo said:


> Just ignore him, mate. Honestly. He has been completely obsessed with Ginault for a long time, we found he was also buying Rolex replicas and then probably felt guilty and got rid of everything (including the Ginault's). If you have to ignore only one person in any Ginault conversation, it's him. Hwa raises interesting points sometimes (although I still think this is not the right place for that), and Citizen V's rants about FTC rules ended up in him buying a Ginault, ha. But this guy... To be fair I don't even think he's 100% ok up there. Put him on ignore and never look back, you have nothing to gain discussing with him, and neither have the rest of us.


I suppose you may be right. I'm starting to believe he's not even all there and this is punching down and low hanging fruit at this point.


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## Randy9999 (Sep 6, 2010)

badgerracer said:


> *If I were a betting man* I would say I think Ginault will outlive a lot of other micro brands...





Citizen V said:


> Well let's see. *If I were a betting man*, I'd bet it's going to be on the dial...


I'm betting that any argument that begins with that phrase wasn't too strong anyway. Just saying. Thanks. Going back to my quiet corner. Bye.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Can’t wait for OR2 to silence its haters and lovers alike......


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Think it will?! The SubC is well-disliked by some of the 5-digit fans. Some people will surely prefer the ORI to the ORII for that reason, and bellyache that Ginault should have spent its time on an Explorer I or II copy, or even a chrono.

There are beginning to be auto chronos in the Ginault price range, including this one:










Designed and assembled in the Midwest by a father/son team and even provides a roadmap for honest marketing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

The Haven watch brand looks interesting (I read through their webpage), but I think the crown for transparency in micro watch making has to go to Dan Fock at OWC. He is transparent to the point of me knowing the name of the person who actually assembled my watch. I've also learned through him the struggles of assembling a pressure tester capable of testing a 300m water resistant case (no small accomplishment for a micro watch brand). I think, if I look through my emails, I could find the name of the lady Dan used for the manufacturing of his bracelets.

Regarding watch brands and their unique claims, I think there needs to be a balance struck between transparency and manufacturing best practice protection. 

The challenge in this case (IMO) is some people choose to not believe Ginault while others are willing to provide the benefit of the doubt. Neither side is right or wrong despite all the online bickering. Choosing to call Ginault liars regarding US manufacturing or assembly does not make you correct. It is simply your belief. 

FWIW, Haven does not have any photos posted on their website either which would definitively show their watches being assembled in the Mid West. This could all be a well articulated marketing story as well, but you choose to believe it despite not being offered definitive evidence.

This decision to say one is truthful and another is not without compelling evidence in either case is suggestive of bias, which has been the more broad issue stuck in my head regarding most Ginault detractors.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Axinnon said:


> You buy watches that say Rolex on them that aren't made by Rolex. You initially denied it and made up stories of your father to make yourself seem innocent and then had to come clean when irrefutable proof came in. Why are you back in this topic, your word is literally lower than dirt. You're the last person people would take seriously on this topic.
> 
> You discussing Ginault is just never going to go well.


THANK YOU


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> The Haven watch brand looks interesting (I read through their webpage), but I think the crown for transparency in micro watch making has to go to Dan Fock at OWC. He is transparent to the point of me knowing the name of the person who actually assembled my watch. I've also learned through him the struggles of assembling a pressure tester capable of testing a 300m water resistant case (no small accomplishment for a micro watch brand). I think, if I look through my emails, I could find the name of the lady Dan used for the manufacturing of his bracelets.
> 
> Regarding watch brands and their unique claims, I think there needs to be a balance struck between transparency and manufacturing best practice protection.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I don't approach this hobby the same way I approach my work. Here, I begin from a willingness to believe what I read, and score down from there. Trust and maybe verify, if you will. At work, it's maybe trust and definitely verify. Different worlds.

But no need to rehash it; I figured folks might be interested in another - can I say US-based? - company producing watches. Dial says "Midwest," striking a careful balance between provenance and parentage, if you will.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

So... where are the new OR2 prototypes!?!?!?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Think it will?! The SubC is well-disliked by some of the 5-digit fans. Some people will surely prefer the ORI to the ORII for that reason, and bellyache that Ginault should have spent its time on an Explorer I or II copy, or even a chrono.
> 
> There are beginning to be auto chronos in the Ginault price range, including this one:
> 
> ...


The 5 digit fans who hate the SubC overwhelmingly primarily hate it due to the new super case / fat lugs. A common wish from the Rolex community is to add the glidelock bracelet and ceramic bezel to the 5 digit case. The OR2 is fulfilling that wish.

While I am sure some folks prefer aluminum over ceramic, there will definitely be no blowback to the ORII like there is from the 5 digit fanbase over the SubC model.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Axinnon said:


> The 5 digit fans who hate the SubC overwhelmingly primarily hate it due to the new super case / fat lugs. A common wish from the Rolex community is to add the glidelock bracelet and ceramic bezel to the 5 digit case. The OR2 is fulfilling that wish.
> 
> While I am sure some folks prefer aluminum over ceramic, there will definitely be no blowback to the ORII like there is from the 5 digit fanbase over the SubC model.


Time will tell, of course, and if they knock the "Hand Built in USA" from the dial, maybe I'll even buy one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Time will tell, of course, and if they knock the "Hand Built in USA" from the dial, maybe I'll even buy one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's fair. I don't like that part either, primarily because the removal of the minute markers.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

hwa said:


> Honestly, I don't approach this hobby the same way I approach ___
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


NOT the point you were making, but I think this is the main cause of so much ire (both here and other threads/boards) in the community

Ultimately we look for different things with the hobby, not just _I like divers, and I like dress watches_ etc

But what we want to feel about the brands we chose to wear, and when people feel differently about something emotive it can get heated real quick...

....and I fear few more so than Ginault, with some folk not caring how good the watch is because they don't trust the spiel and others simply not caring about the rhetoric when they perceive such value in the product.

anyways..

Have great weekends one and all, I'll be gorging myself on sea food and on Monday I'll be visiting Alentejo for 5 days.

I'll take no other watch than the Gino (pet name) and my German brand camera.... Hmmm that's a funny story... my camera says Germany, but I know that they have a major manufacturing facility just a few clicks north of me here in Portugal.

I guess it's not just watch companies playing that game ;-)


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Honestly, I don't approach this hobby the same way I approach my work. Here, I begin from a willingness to believe what I read, and score down from there. Trust and maybe verify, if you will. At work, it's maybe trust and definitely verify. Different worlds.
> 
> But no need to rehash it; I figured folks might be interested in another - can I say US-based? - company producing watches. Dial says "Midwest," striking a careful balance between provenance and parentage, if you will.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I understand your position and in many ways am in alignment with you. If the Ginault simply said "USA" on the dial, maybe that would be less concerning to some people (it would certainly take up less dial real estate at 6 o'clock, that is for sure).

My macro point is the lack of uniform application of distrust / cynicism when commenting on Ginault relative to other brands. With your Haven brand example, you assume honesty, but with Ginault you assume deceit. This is despite the fact neither side has provided compelling evidence to support either of their claims. In my mind both could be 100% MIC watches with just a clever marketing story to inflate the asking price, or both could be 100% honest in their claims.

For whatever reason, the Ginault brand has certainly struck a nerve with some people from its very beginning, but in many cases the detractors show an obvious lack of equitable application of standards that suggests unreasonable bias. It makes me wonder about the motivation of the poster.

OK - enough of this. It is all academic anyway.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> The Haven watch brand looks interesting (I read through their webpage), but I think the crown for transparency in micro watch making has to go to Dan Fock at OWC. He is transparent to the point of me knowing the name of the person who actually assembled my watch. I've also learned through him the struggles of assembling a pressure tester capable of testing a 300m water resistant case (no small accomplishment for a micro watch brand). I think, if I look through my emails, I could find the name of the lady Dan used for the manufacturing of his bracelets.
> 
> Regarding watch brands and their unique claims, I think there needs to be a balance struck between transparency and manufacturing best practice protection.
> 
> ...


That sad fact is that we do have *some* evidence re:Ginault and Ginault has not yet spoken publicly about it refuting it. I don't think that same level of concern surrounds Haven as of yet. Again, most of this is conducted in the court of public opinion which makes it mostly subjective and not objective.

For the fans of Ginault, all of the doubters (me included), we can then all say objectively 'Here is the proof'. Controversy over.

That's not a bad thing. Hopefully that happens. Until then, we will all bicker and argue, and some will throw shade towards a group of people in the process and act like devolved apes at times.

My hope is we rise above the stink, collectively, whether we agree or disagree on Ginault. There is no room for spite at this point.

The truth is in how folks treat each other on this thread.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

In terms of dial, my thoughts:

I actually like the amount of text. I like it on the original Submariner as for me it kind of adds to the technical/tool watch concept. I understand some people find it almost clownish on the Ginault, but I still like it
On the Hand Built in America stuff, I also like it, but I don't like that it covers the minute markers there. So if they find a solution that ticks both boxes, I'm happy with it. I don't care much where it's built as long as it has the quality level it has. I've had Made in Japan guitars that were way better finished than Made in USA, and some of the Made in China stuff I have is just top quality (Apple Inc anyone?).

Anyway, this is not the important thing now. The only thing that matters is: WHERE ARE THE PICS OF THE PROTOTYPES?!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Just received a response from Ginault, proto pics are going to take about another week.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Axinnon said:


> Just received a response from Ginault, proto pics are going to take about another week.


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## acheongtk (Nov 15, 2018)

Saddd


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> That sad fact is that we do have *some* evidence re:Ginault and Ginault has not yet spoken publicly about it refuting it. I don't think that same level of concern surrounds Haven as of yet. Again, most of this is conducted in the court of public opinion which makes it mostly subjective and not objective.
> 
> For the fans of Ginault, all of the doubters (me included), we can then all say objectively 'Here is the proof'. Controversy over.
> 
> ...


Transparency is key, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm going to spend $1,000 or more of my hard earned money on a non-established brand they better answer any and all questions in detail (accounting for any trade secrets). Quite frankly, _I shouldn't have to ask_. They should _already_ be providing as much information as possible via their website and social media to engender trust in potential and current customers.

Personally, Ginault throws up so many red flags for me that I'm genuinely impressed they sell so many watches. They state their watches are "Hand Built in America". This statement is vague and misleading, _at best_, but more likely false in its entirety. Their website has no office address or phone number, and their service address is in Germany (why would you have watches made in the USA shipped to Germany for service?). It provides no background information on the company's owners or staff. And, I'm not the first to notice it, but they actually use their dial text to ridicule the Rolex watches they are emulating.

For those that are willing to take the risk, more power to you. I'd far rather spend my money on a Monta, Farer, Christopher Ward, Longines, Hamilton, etc.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

ChronoB said:


> Transparency is key, as far as I'm concerned. If I'm going to spend $1,000 or more of my hard earned money on a non-established brand they better answer any and all questions in detail (accounting for any trade secrets). Quite frankly, _I shouldn't have to ask_. They should _already_ be providing as much information as possible via their website and social media to engender trust in potential and current customers.
> 
> Personally, Ginault throws up so many red flags for me that I'm genuinely impressed they sell so many watches. They state their watches are "Hand Built in America". This statement is vague and misleading, _at best_, but more likely false in its entirety. Their website has no office address or phone number, and their service address is in Germany (why would you have watches made in the USA shipped to Germany for service?). It provides no background information on the company's owners or staff. And, I'm not the first to notice it, but they actually use their dial text to ridicule the Rolex watches they are emulating.
> 
> For those that are willing to take the risk, more power to you. I'd far rather spend my money on a Monta, Farer, Christopher Ward, Longines, Hamilton, etc.


Well I'll give you my point of view that completely goes opposite of yours to help you understand why they sell so many watches.

I don't know anything about Ginault, or what the real story is behind them. But at the same time, I don't really care either. Whether Charles and John are real or whether it's all a sham and a person named TC is hiding behind the shadows. I just don't care.

The hand made in USA print? Don't care.

I genuinely. Don't. Care.

What makes up for it?

The best watch you can possibly get, that rivals Rolex quality, at the one thousand dollar price-point.

I literally couldn't care less about anything other than the final product. I really don't care what's true or not regarding anything behind the scenes as long as the product you are selling is of the quality you market it as, and the ocean rover actually is.

Monta is twice as expensive for roughly the same quality. Farer, Longines, CW, Hamilton don't come close to the quality of the Ginault for the price point.

The finishing and quality of the OR(and OR2 even more so) just blows those watches out the water regardless of the politics. It's no contest.

And as a bonus, the customer service from what I understand is fantastic, and even if they go down in a couple years or what-have-you, the Sellita movement can be repaired at any local smith anyway.

As far as "ridiculing" Rolex, that sounds like heavy projection on your behalf. Doesn't come across as ridicule but more-so homage to me. That's an interpretation that you need to get over on your own.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> I genuinely. Don't. Care.


I'm cool with that. Your money is your money.



> The best watch you can possibly get, that rivals Rolex quality, at the one thousand dollar price-point.
> Monta is twice as expensive for roughly the same quality. Farer, Longines, CW, Hamilton don't come close to the quality of the Ginault for the price point.


You say that as if you know. You really don't. That's just a fanboy statement.

Honestly, until I see Hodinkee, Fratello Watches, A Blog to Watch, Worn and Wound, Time and Tide Watches, Deployant, or some other website of note review and pass judgment on the watch and its quality relative to other brands I will remain skeptical.

To be clear, I didn't actually question or mention anything about the quality of Ginault's watches. About that, *I* don't care. Their watches could have a sterling reputation for quality around here. I still wouldn't buy one, and I would happily pay more for a watch from a different brand, for the reasons I mentioned earlier.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

I've heard a fair number of posts from people who are ardently anti-Ginault. But you know what I haven't heard? Stories that suggest that Ginault customers aren't satisfied with their watches or that they aren't treated fairly when trouble arises and they have to send them back for repair. THAT'S probably why they're still selling watches. Every review I've ever seen says they sell great, well made, fairly priced watches and take care of their customers when the occasional problem arises.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

ChronoB said:


> I'm cool with that. Your money is your money.
> 
> You say that as if you know. You really don't. That's just a fanboy statement.
> 
> ...


It's not a fanboy statement. I have yet to see any review of any of the watches you have mentioned say they rival or exceed the Ocean Rover 1 which has been out for years now.

The Monta rivals it at twice the price.

As far as their sterling reputation for quality it has that you don't care about, well yes you made that clear. I'm simply stating why Ginault is selling past your expecations that you were bewildered about beforehand. People have different reasons.
It is a common sentiment online that the GOR is the best bang for buck watch out with a lot of evidence to back that up.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> It's not a fanboy statement. I have yet to see any review of any of the watches you have mentioned say they rival or exceed the Ocean Rover 1 which has been out for years now.
> 
> The Monta rivals it at twice the price.
> 
> ...


No, but most (if not all) of those sites have reviewed a Monta, a Farer, a Maen, an Oak & Oscar, a Christopher Ward, etc. The opinions of professionals that handle and review watches from $300 Seikos to $30,000 Bulgaris counts for something. The fact that none of them have yet reviewed a Ginault despite being available for years is a mark against it, for me.

And I wasn't "bewildered". I've long since ceased to be bewildered to see people part with their money in cases where I wouldn't.

Regarding quality, I have a Longines Hydroconquest that I bought 5 years ago. That watch has been beat to hell the past five years. Even before getting it serviced recently it still looked okay and kept decent time after all those years of wearing it anywhere and everywhere. After getting it serviced recently it looks and runs like the day I purchased it. THAT is quality. Making a watch that reliably looks and feels like a new Rolex out of the box is a) not that hard, and b) is not a mark of quality. Let's see how well these Ginaults resemble more expensive watches in a few years.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

ChronoB said:


> No, but most (if not all) of those sites have reviewed a Monta, a Farer, a Maen, an Oak & Oscar, a Christopher Ward, etc. The opinions of professionals that handle and review watches from $300 Seikos to $30,000 Bulgaris counts for something. The fact that none of them have yet reviewed a Ginault despite being available for years is a mark against it, for me.
> 
> And I wasn't "bewildered". I've long since ceased to be bewildered to see people part with their money in cases where I wouldn't.
> 
> Regarding quality, I have a Longines Hydroconquest that I bought 5 years ago. That watch has been beat to hell the past five years. Even before getting it serviced recently it still looked okay and kept decent time after all those years of wearing it anywhere and everywhere. After getting it serviced recently it looks and runs like the day I purchased it. THAT is quality. Making a watch that reliably looks and feels like a new Rolex out of the box is a) not that hard, and b) is not a mark of quality. Let's see how well these Ginaults resemble more expensive watches in a few years.


Been wearing mine daily for 2.5 years. Its my beater. Never skipped a beat, literally and keeps +1-2s/d accuracy now as when I first got it. The finish has held up and acquired the usual battle wounds consistent of any steel cased, aluminum bezeled watch incl Rolex.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I'm still amused by the kind of people that doesn't like Ginault watches, that will NEVER buy one, and still have the need to tell that to all Ginault owners. Did your mum never teach you manners, boy?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Been wearing mine daily for 2.5 years. Its my beater. Never skipped a beat, literally and keeps +1-2s/d accuracy now as when I first got it. The finish has held up and acquired the usual battle wounds consistent of any steel cased, aluminum bezeled watch incl Rolex.


Same goes for mine, btw. Bought second hand a year ago and still +1.5s/d.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm still amused by the kind of people that doesn't like Ginault watches, that will NEVER buy one, and still have the need to tell that to all Ginault owners. Did your mum never teach you manners, boy?


I didn't realize you couldn't post in a forum that you wouldn't buy a particular watch. Now that I know only Ginault customers or potential customers are allowed in this thread I'll abstain. Sorry for the inconvenience, boy.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

ChronoB said:


> No, but most (if not all) of those sites have reviewed a Monta, a Farer, a Maen, an Oak & Oscar, a Christopher Ward, etc. The opinions of professionals that handle and review watches from $300 Seikos to $30,000 Bulgaris counts for something. The fact that none of them have yet reviewed a Ginault despite being available for years is a mark against it, for me.


They haven't reviewed a Ginault because they don't review homage watches. In all the years I've been reading Hodinkee I have never seen a review not only of Ginault, but Steinhart, MkII, Squale or anything in that line. But they have been reviewed in amateur websites, however.

And all these brands have their respective threads, will you also go there and post how you would never buy any of these? Hang on, why don't you do that on EVERY SINGLE thread of a watch you don't like and will never buy. That would be hilarious!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

ChronoB said:


> I didn't realize you couldn't post in a forum that you wouldn't buy a particular watch. Now that I know only Ginault customers or potential customers are allowed in this thread I'll abstain. Sorry for the inconvenience, boy.


Oh of course you can. You can also go to a Mercedes authorised dealer and start telling everybody why you don't like Mercedes and why you would never buy one. And also mention you have a very nice BMW and you are super happy with it. We live in a free world.


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

ChronoB said:


> I didn't realize you couldn't post in a forum that you wouldn't buy a particular watch. Now that I know only Ginault customers or potential customers are allowed in this thread I'll abstain. Sorry for the inconvenience, boy.


Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> Just received a response from Ginault, proto pics are going to take about another week.


He is figuring out if there is anyway he can rip off another maker even more on his 2nd monstrosity

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

The continued argument of what is and what it’s not will prove the OR to be what it is in the long haul for as long it doesn’t get derailed by its truth if there are other than what it presents itself now.
I can’t wait two weeks is too long lol. If OR2 is successful it will drive the price of the OR1 down a bit or won’t it?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

ChronoB said:


> Making a watch that reliably looks and feels like a new Rolex out of the box is a) not that hard, and b) is not a mark of quality. Let's see how well these Ginaults resemble more expensive watches in a few years.


LOL what? Why have no one else done it but Ginault then? If making a new watch that looks and feels like Rolex isnt that hard you'd think I'd see more than literally one company doing it right now...

I'd dare you to mention even one watch that looks and feels like Rolex quality aside from Ginault (besides for the obvious Tudor at 4x the price)


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> LOL what? Why have no one else done it but Ginault then? If making a new watch that looks and feels like Rolex isnt that hard you'd think I'd see more than literally one company doing it right now...
> 
> I'd dare you to mention even one watch that looks and feels like Rolex quality aside from Ginault (besides for the obvious Tudor at 4x the price)


Looks and feels can be very deceiving. I'd love for there to be a video of the making of a Rolex and the making of a Ginault (ie rip-off) you could watch and you would see the difference. I mean everything is different from the raw materials to the movement and so on and so on. I mean if you like your watch fine but don't make statements that simply aren't true to support it. That just makes people hate the brand even more. I'm no Rolex fanboy, heck I think Grand Seiko are finished better then Rolex, but to think this brand is as good as Rolex is simply not true


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

ChronoB said:


> I didn't realize you couldn't post in a forum that you wouldn't buy a particular watch. Now that I know only Ginault customers or potential customers are allowed in this thread I'll abstain. Sorry for the inconvenience, boy.


He never said you are not allowed, but he does have a very good point.

I, for example, tried a few NTH's watches. I thought it wasn't really for me, doesn't tickle my fancy, isn't up to my standard in terms of its quality and its craftsmanship, neither does it have heritage or brand recognition so I passed. As a normal person who buys watches, you don't see me going into Jannis Trading thread and crap all over it.

This type of behavior exhibited the likes of you (I noticed that normally hord around in this other brand's thread)really does not make much sense and so we could not help but wonder what is the real motive behind? member Hwa probably realized this behavior really doesn't make sense to most people with common sense so in his previous post he even had to explain himself for this borderline perversion of persistency to legitimize his behavior.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

carbon_dragon said:


> I've heard a fair number of posts from people who are ardently anti-Ginault. But you know what I haven't heard? Stories that suggest that Ginault customers aren't satisfied with their watches or that they aren't treated fairly when trouble arises and they have to send them back for repair. THAT'S probably why they're still selling watches. Every review I've ever seen says they sell great, well made, fairly priced watches and take care of their customers when the occasional problem arises.


My experience is that their reply isn't always the most prompt but they do get back. This is true even when I wanted to make a purchase. But from my conversation with John, you can just tell his words are solid.

As for the Ocean Rover, I can honestly say this is the BEST MilSub spec Submariner homage out there.

There are many Sub homages on the market, usually when you go from one of these to a Rolex Sub you realize why the Sub costs above 9K and people are still raving about it.

But when you go from an Ocean Rover to a Rolex Sub, you go hm........I don't feel that much of an upgrade. I know Rolex is Rolex no one replaces his heritage and horological importance no argument there. But really, the Ocean Rover do make many Sub owners wonder. And this is stated over and over by many Sub owners period.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

City74 said:


> Looks and feels can be very deceiving. the making of a Ginault (ie *rip-off*) you could watch and you would see the difference.





City74 said:


> I mean everything is different from the raw materials to the movement and so on and so on.


Hell of a rip off then huh? 

(I agree btw, the Ginault is a cut above the usual $triple digit homages, but it costs more so it should be. I don't have a 5 series sub, but I find Ginault lacking against a SubC, but there's a huge price difference there)


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

City74 said:


> Looks and feels can be very deceiving. I'd love for there to be a video of the making of a Rolex and the making of a Ginault (ie rip-off) you could watch and you would see the difference. I mean everything is different from the raw materials to the movement and so on and so on. I mean if you like your watch fine but don't make statements that simply aren't true to support it. That just makes people hate the brand even more. I'm no Rolex fanboy, heck I think Grand Seiko are finished better then Rolex, but to think this brand is as good as Rolex is simply not true


I tried a Ginault version 1 today and thena 5 digit Rolex at an AD. The Ginault was equal in quality and the improvement in the OR2 will make it surpass the 5 digit sub and maybe even the 6 digit. I don't care about the making of, the final product says it all buddy.

By the way, I say whatever I want regardless of who it pisses off. Especially if it pisses off anti ginault guys like you. Seeing you respond with troll comments and seeing you annoyed makes getting a Ginault all that much more enjoyable 

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> I tried a Ginault version 1 today and thena 5 digit Rolex at an AD. The Ginault was equal in quality and the improvement in the OR2 will make it surpass the 5 digit sub and maybe even the 6 digit. I don't care about the making of, the final product says it all buddy.
> 
> By the way, I say whatever I want regardless of who it pisses off. Especially if it pisses off anti ginault guys like you. Seeing you respond with troll comments and seeing you annoyed makes getting a Ginault all that much more enjoyable
> 
> Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


I don't care enough to be annoyed. If you want to go around thinking your Ginault is as good as a Rolex then more power to you. Maybe in a few years when you decide to sell it and can't give it away you will realize part of the difference. It's your money tho spend all ya want on one. I just know I'm buying a great quality watch in Rolex that most likely I won't lose anything on if I sell it and will be around in 20 years should I need assistance with the watch and that I'm wearing an original

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

City74 said:


> I don't care enough to be annoyed. If you want to go around thinking your Ginault is as good as a Rolex then more power to you. Maybe in a few years when you decide to sell it and can't give it away you will realize part of the difference. It's your money tho spend all ya want on one. I just know I'm buying a great quality watch in Rolex that most likely I won't lose anything on if I sell it and will be around in 20 years should I need assistance with the watch and that I'm wearing an original
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You care enough to subscribe and stalk a thread for a watch you clearly dislike and make negative comments that I laugh at. Are you sure you don't care enough to be annoyed? Are you trying to fool us or yourself here bud? LOL


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> I tried a Ginault version 1 today and thena 5 digit Rolex at an AD. The Ginault was equal in quality and the improvement in the OR2 will make it surpass the 5 digit sub and maybe even the 6 digit.














Axinnon said:


> By the way, I say whatever I want regardless of who it pisses off.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


>


It can't compare to your replicas, I'm sure.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Guys, remember all that stuff about the ignore button? None of these lunatics without manners deserve a reply. They just come here to get some action in their boring lives, let them find it somewhere else.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

mrmorfo said:


> Guys, remember all that stuff about the ignore button? None of these lunatics without manners deserve a reply. They just come here to get some action in their boring lives, let them find it somewhere else.


Manners, you say?



Axinnon said:


> By the way, I say whatever I want regardless of who it pisses off.


Like his manners? Don't get caught up being two-faced here, I can say it doesn't end so well.....


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> It can't compare to your replicas, I'm sure.


You talk a big game, but you're also one who thinks a Tisell is better than a Rolex. I'd say your opinion is less than relevant.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$200-tisell-marine-diver-vs-$9000-rolex-submariner-4699899.html

Back to Ginault....


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> You talk a big game, but you're also one who thinks a Tisell is better than a Rolex. I'd say your opinion is less than relevant.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$200-tisell-marine-diver-vs-$9000-rolex-submariner-4699899.html
> 
> Back to Ginault....


I'll clue you in on this one to take your mind off of your replicas for a moment.

I made a reply there that I compared both watches first hand and that the Tisell was 30% of the watch that the 6 digit submariner is. The platinum coating on the bezel, and the refined recessed end links outclass the Tisell with a way better bracelet as well.

Literally all there, unedited, where I quantified it's 30% of the watch. That's pretty much the opposite of "better".

Of course, as a person who purchases replicas and used his passed father in a lie, I'm not surprised you have the character traits to lie about what I said in that thread too.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> I'll clue you in on this one to take your mind off of your replicas for a moment.
> 
> I made a reply there that I compared both watches first hand and that the Tisell was 30% of the watch that the 6 digit submariner is. The platinum coating on the bezel, and the refined recessed end links outclass the Tisell with a way better bracelet as well.
> 
> ...


All someone needs to do is read how you flip and flip like a fish and attack virtually anyone who disagrees with you to know EXACTLY the type of person you are. There are numerous posts from you to numerous people for proof of that.

I've clearly tried to rise above your noise - but for whatever reason, you want to go back into the past to relive your glorious 'self imposed victory' over me and many others. It's kind of pathetic, but it's your choice how you treat people.

As for what you say about me, I really do not put one iota of thought into that. Some random internet stranger doesn't like me.

Boo freaking hoo.

Back to Ginault....


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

There is no reason for personal attacks, guys. I think we should all be above that! It would be nice if this thread could get back on track.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

drttown said:


> There is no reason for personal attacks, guys. I think we should all be above that! It would be nice if this thread could get back on track.


100% on board and agree. Thank you!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> All someone needs to do is read how you flip and flip like a fish and attack virtually anyone who disagrees with you to know EXACTLY the type of person you are. There are numerous posts from you to numerous people for proof of that.
> 
> I've clearly tried to rise above your noise - but for whatever reason, you want to go back into the past to relive your glorious 'self imposed victory' over me and many others. It's kind of pathetic, but it's your choice how you treat people.
> 
> ...


Not attacking anyone. I'm using your own discourse against you.

You claim my opinion is irrelevant based on a statement that ended up being a lie.

I'm stating it's your opinion that's irrelevant cause you have shown to have lied multiple times. You've tried to end Ginault firsthand by contacting legal personell for illegal businesses while you yourself engage in the same illegal business.

You can't say these are personal attacks, I'm simply showing the world your hypocrisies.

As for how you don't care about how you are perceived to online strangers, it sure didn't seem that way when you used your deceased father in a made up story on how you ended up on a replica forum before getting outed to actually buy them.

Let's not also forget that you bumped random topics of mine after you got outed in the other Ginault thread including the one you just linked right now to try to get my attention. Mods had to clean that one up.

You wouldn't do that if you didn't care.

I'll truly try to refrain from going further regarding you for the sake of this topic. I'm pretty sure you're seen as an old senile hypocrite at this point anyways.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

drttown said:


> There is no reason for personal attacks, guys. I think we should all be above that! It would be nice if this thread could get back on track.


Pretty much this. If you feel you would post about someone rather than about a Ginault Ocean Rover or even watches in general, it means it's time to block & ignore. You will never make them understand your point, because that's not what they post here for. Just click on their name and add them to your ignore list.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

....anxiously awaiting the ORII, I was told that pics should be up in about a week, or so. I was also told that the delay is in the blue ceramic bezel; they are trying to get the color just right.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

drttown said:


> ....anxiously awaiting the ORII, I was told that pics should be up in about a week, or so. I was also told that the delay is in the blue ceramic bezel; they are trying to get the color just right.


Blue is such a challenging color to get "right". Not many companies are successful with it. I'm glad to hear Ginault is spending the extra time to make sure they hit the mark.


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## ChronoB (May 22, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> They haven't reviewed a Ginault because they don't review homage watches. In all the years I've been reading Hodinkee I have never seen a review not only of Ginault, but Steinhart, MkII, Squale or anything in that line. But they have been reviewed in amateur websites, however.
> 
> And all these brands have their respective threads, will you also go there and post how you would never buy any of these? Hang on, why don't you do that on EVERY SINGLE thread of a watch you don't like and will never buy. That would be hilarious!


An old, but still relevant article from Worn and Wound, which has reviewed watches like Squale, Steinhart, etc: https://wornandwound.com/homage-vs-replica-vs-counterfeit/

And yes, if those watch companies have websites like Ginault's that are as purposely sparse and deceptive I might be inclined to post in those threads. So much hilarity.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Everyone needs to knock off the bickering, name calling, and attacks, and get the conversation back on topic. As a reminder, from our rules:

_2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.

Members who have personal issues with other members and Moderators must resolve their differences outside the forum. WatchUSeek policy is not to discuss issues with other forums._


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Keep it up and I will start handing out 'red cards'.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

They should at least post the pics of the OR2 with black bezel.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MX54LIFE said:


> They should at least post the pics of the OR2 with black bezel.


They will. John emailed me back saying they are just waiting for the final countersamples of the black bezel to mount it on the ORII and take the photos, should be at some point next week.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

City74 said:


> I don't care enough to be annoyed. If you want to go around thinking your Ginault is as good as a Rolex then more power to you. Maybe in a few years when you decide to sell it and can't give it away you will realize part of the difference. It's your money tho spend all ya want on one. I just know I'm buying a great quality watch in Rolex that most likely I won't lose anything on if I sell it and will be around in 20 years should I need assistance with the watch and that I'm wearing an original
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think this is a very interesting time for watches in general. Maybe 50 60 years ago production even to the level a Hamilton Khaki can be very exclusive. But with the technology available today, building high-quality components to surround the movement is no longer that coverted. Many microbrands are producing at the level of entry-level major Swiss brands for less. And Ginault's components that surround its movement are definitely up there with its 9K cousin. And this is stated over and over in this thread by actual Rolex Sub owners.

In an earlier post, someone just purchased an Ocean Rover from another member for $995. Contrary to what many, likes of you, believed the Ocean Rover retains value pretty well as a microbrand.

In terms of servicing the watch down the road, these watches are equipped with 2824 clones. These movements are like Toyota Camrys of cars. Cheap and easy to service, parts availability is never an issue and you can easily find a local watchmaker to do the job.

These are facts that can be verified independently at any given point in time.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> MX54LIFE said:
> 
> 
> > They should at least post the pics of the OR2 with black bezel.
> ...


Cool. If they did post the black bezel......they may have increase that preorder list with my name at least.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Good discussion thread.

In the mean time Rolex prices have skyrocketed.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

ChronoB said:


> An old, but still relevant article from Worn and Wound, which has reviewed watches like Squale, Steinhart, etc: https://wornandwound.com/homage-vs-replica-vs-counterfeit/
> 
> And yes, if those watch companies have websites like Ginault's that are as purposely sparse and deceptive I might be inclined to post in those threads. So much hilarity.


I've read this article and, to my mind at least, it speaks more in favor of the OR than against it.

Separating the watch from the brand controversies - the OR itself is more of a "homage" in the true sense of the word than many of the other near copy watches I see being discussed in other threads. The OR doesn't attempt to 100% replicate any one particular Rolex Sub model, but rather combines elements of multiple Sub models from various eras into a single cohesive package, resulting in a design that pays tribute to the Rolex Sub.

Again, separating the brand from the watch, I feel what the OR designer did was more challenging than what I see other brands doing with MM300-a-likes and Tuna-a-likes. The person who combined the Sub style elements obviously knew the Sub lineage well enough to select bits and pieces from one historic model to the next.

Finally, other than the bracelet clasp, the OR borrows design elements from historic, non-current, Rolex models.

I think this is an important point as, while i think it would be foolish to compare an OR to an actual Rolex, I find it distasteful when a brand decides to produce a "homage" to a current model.

As for the Ginault website being purposefully false and deceptive, all I can say is I ordered a watch from them, paid, and received the watch in a very timely fashion. The watch was shipped to me from a US address and was well packaged and in perfect condition.

When I had an issue (after a year of ownership), customer support was responsive. I shipped the watch back for repair to a US address. The repair was completed and the watch returned in good working order (with no new scratches!) in a reasonable timeframe.

I found nothing sparse or deceitful in my transactions. If there were issues, I would openly state them, but all my interactions have been smooth to date (about 2 years now).

If you'd like to look at deceitful, we can discuss other brands with their lengthy, years to decades long pre-order processes, or other brands who's owners receive watches clearly different than the original published design, or even worse, brands who photoshop their brand dial onto photos of other watch cases for their advertising. Those examples are deceptive and misleading and in leagues far beyond any Ginault allegation in my opinion, yet here we are stuck on this topic.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

We know if the ginault ocean rover put ceramic bezel ? Can I order total watch? It's with selita movement?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> We know if the ginault ocean rover put ceramic bezel ? Can I order total watch? It's with selita movement?


I do not believe that you can get the original Ocean Rover with a ceramic bezel; although you may be able to fit an aftermarket bezel in place of the aluminum. The new ORII will come with either an aluminum or a ceramic bezel; it is your choice. You can still get the new one with the selita movement or their own clone movement. You would need to email them to see if they are still taking any pre orders, at the discounted rates. I hope this helps!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

drttown said:


> I do not believe that you can get the original Ocean Rover with a ceramic bezel; although you may be able to fit an aftermarket bezel in place of the aluminum. The new ORII will come with either an aluminum or a ceramic bezel; it is your choice. You can still get the new one with the selita movement or their own clone movement. You would need to email them to see if they are still taking any pre orders, at the discounted rates. I hope this helps!


Most aftermarket ceramic bezel inserts are sized for the six digit submariners and the bezel on the 6-digit cases is different than the one on the 5-digit, so you can't fit any of those I'm afraid. I also asked John if you could fit an aftermarket insert to the ORII and he confirmed you can't (as the bezel on both Ocean Rover models is a 5-digit bezel).


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

If you say OR is not a copy then it is not LOL.......but it is Rolex Sub copy rendered with several “sub” model specific parts like the mil hands and glidelock...........legitimately called Ginault OR. I like it coz’ it looks like the Rolex Sub I love at a price I can afford and it is legal.
If I can afford the real thing will I buy this? Maybe not........maybe yes if I can justify having two watches that looks the same.
Make no mistake this is not like buying a replica where you are basically faking it.....OR puts ones desire closer to the right perspective......buying the kinda of diver watch ones like. Same reason why owning an homage watch became popular. I like the look of it base on the watch I want. This is not pretentious but you see.......I am flaunting it.......it is a Ginault....
Now let me see them OR2 so I can walk the walk and talk the talk.....
Altho’ I just bought me a Steinhart Explorer......it did not really scratch the itch......it seems to be turning into a rash LOL.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

So worth the price ginault ocean rover ? 1300 dollars? More quality from Steinhart and davosa?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

kostantinos said:


> So worth the price ginault ocean rover ? 1300 dollars? More quality from Steinhart and davosa?


Miles above


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

MX54LIFE said:


> If you say OR is not a copy then it is not LOL.......but it is Rolex Sub copy rendered with several "sub" model specific parts like the mil hands and glidelock...........legitimately called Ginault OR. I like it coz' it looks like the Rolex Sub I love at a price I can afford and it is legal.
> If I can afford the real thing will I buy this? Maybe not........maybe yes if I can justify having two watches that looks the same.
> Make no mistake this is not like buying a replica where you are basically faking it.....OR puts ones desire closer to the right perspective......buying the kinda of diver watch ones like. Same reason why owning an homage watch became popular. I like the look of it base on the watch I want. This is not pretentious but you see.......I am flaunting it.......it is a Ginault....
> Now let me see them OR2 so I can walk the walk and talk the talk.....
> Altho' I just bought me a Steinhart Explorer......it did not really scratch the itch......it seems to be turning into a rash LOL.


That's the thing, I have the money and could pay for the real thing, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere (deposit for a second house, better uni for my kids, new car, etc). Still, the 5 digit sub is a design I really like and none of the other homages scratch the itch, because they are too shy to do it right. Let's face it, if I want an original design I'll buy a Nomos, or whatever. But no, I want a sub! So please no straight lugs (Steinhart) or injection mould bezels (Squale), etc. I don't want originality here, the only thing I don't want is a Rolex coronet because that would be a fake, but all the he rest? Yes please!


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

kostantinos said:


> So worth the price ginault ocean rover ? 1300 dollars? More quality from Steinhart and davosa?


The Ginault quality is excellent. Way worth the retail price, in my opinion. I've had a few different versions and they all were excellent, top quality.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

It's a good question, would I buy the actual Rolex Submariner if I could? Well I have the money to buy it, though not enough to buy it at any kind of inflated price it would take to actually find one since you can't just go into an AD and pick it off the shelf. But if I could, would I? Well, as I've said in another thread, a $10000 watch might just be more expensive than I could bring myself to leave the house with. Plus I feel I'd be endorsing the whole apparent artificial scarcity thing, I'd pay more to service it probably, and I'd just be petrified that I'd lose it. So I think I'd take the Ocean Rover II rather than the Rolex, at least at the $10000+ it would likely cost (or even maybe at $8500). 

Now I am thinking about SOMEDAY buying the new Omega Seamaster Professional 2018. That is $5000 but maybe I could stretch to that and still actually make myself wear it. Especially after a few years when it loses value. See that's a good thing for me! It's not an investment for me. Plus I think the Omega is every bit the watch the Submariner is from a technical standpoint (though that is, of course, debatable depending on what is important to YOU in a watch). To me Omega screams ENGINEERING where Rolex (though it is superbly engineered) screams EXCLUSIVITY (which rubs me the wrong way). I love the design, but not so much the company.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> That's the thing, I have the money and could pay for the real thing, but I'd rather spend that money elsewhere (deposit for a second house, better uni for my kids, new car, etc). Still, the 5 digit sub is a design I really like and none of the other homages scratch the itch, because they are too shy to do it right. Let's face it, if I want an original design I'll buy a Nomos, or whatever. But no, I want a sub! So please no straight lugs (Steinhart) or injection mould bezels (Squale), etc. I don't want originality here, the only thing I don't want is a Rolex coronet because that would be a fake, but all the he rest? Yes please!


Exactly. I could buy a Rolex at current inflated price tomorrow and not blink. I just don't like the current or previous designs. Oversized maxicase, mercedes hands, flat crystal, none of which I like. The Ginault OR1 has all the design elements I want and more eg glidelock bracelet (although I wear mine on vintage inspired leather strap), unique enamel dial, beautifully contoured sword hands and at a price thats a fraction of the Rolex. I can wear it and not worry.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> Exactly. I could buy a Rolex at current inflated price tomorrow and not blink. I just don't like the current or previous designs. Oversized maxicase, mercedes hands, flat crystal, none of which I like. The Ginault OR1 has all the design elements I want and more eg glidelock bracelet (although I wear mine on vintage inspired leather strap), unique enamel dial, beautifully contoured sword hands and at a price thats a fraction of the Rolex. I can wear it and not worry.


This is EXACTLY where I'm at. Buying a sub isn't an issue but I'm just not a fan of their designs (for all the reasons mentioned above) Ginault nailed it in combining all the best elements from past and present Rolexes (IMO) into one watch, something Rolex should have done a long time ago. Obviously It won't be the same quality wise and it doesn't share the same kudos but it's a well made watch easily replacable if lost or stolen, easily fixable if broken and makes more sence to me than just buying a straight up homage.

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## 99watches (Feb 4, 2019)

Admin Edit - As a reminder of our rules: _9. No discussions or pictures of replica watches, or links to replica watch sites unless previously approved by a Moderator or site Administrators. In general, any posts that involve the discussion, encouragement, or solicitation of any kind of illegal activities, whether watch-related or not, is strictly prohibited._


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> This is EXACTLY where I'm at. Buying a sub isn't an issue but I'm just not a fan of their designs (for all the reasons mentioned above) Ginault nailed it in combining all the best elements from past and present Rolexes (IMO) into one watch, something Rolex should have done a long time ago. Obviously It won't be the same quality wise and it doesn't share the same kudos but it's a well made watch easily replacable if lost or stolen, easily fixable if broken and makes more sence to me than just buying a straight up homage.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


I agree. I recently steered a buddy of mine who has been chasing a good example of the 16610 or 14060 Submariner for a while into getting the Ocean Rover.

Getting a classic 5 digit Sub can be very tricky. If you don't want to spend premium prices from an AD that deals in used watches, you will have to source it from the open secondary market. And we all know the sort of trouble/expertise required when going that route to ensure you get a good/legit 5 digit Sub.

I showed him my Ocean Rover 181070GSLN and let him wore it for a while. He was convinced not only the OR can stand on its own it is actually a better-looking watch for his taste and the price is very reasonable.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> Exactly. I could buy a Rolex at current inflated price tomorrow and not blink. I just don't like the current or previous designs. Oversized maxicase, mercedes hands, flat crystal, none of which I like. The Ginault OR1 has all the design elements I want and more eg glidelock bracelet (although I wear mine on vintage inspired leather strap), unique enamel dial, beautifully contoured sword hands and at a price thats a fraction of the Rolex. I can wear it and not worry.


The fact that you mentioned about the curved hands and the enemal dial, a true expert that knows the value of the Ocean Rover. devils in the details they say.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

I read the spects from ocean rover 2...will use sellita movement and ceramic bezel!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> I read the spects from ocean rover 2...will use sellita movement and ceramic bezel!


correct!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

And great price for pre order


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

So allouminium bezel or ceramic for put the pre order?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

kostantinos said:


> So allouminium bezel or ceramic for put the pre order?


I'm going with black ceramic and white indices with blue glow. Still on the fence between flat crystal or cyclops, though...


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm going with black ceramic and white indices with blue glow. Still on the fence between flat crystal or cyclops, though...


I'm going with black ceramic, date, blue lume, flat crystal with inner AR.

I advise against the domed crystal since it wont have inner AR and we know that it reflects like crazy. I love the shape but it kills the look of the watchface.

I'm going no cyclops too since I think it makes it more homage than imitator. With the new fully indexed insert and no cyclops, it'll be a cool hybrid of sub and sea dweller.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

cwfmon said:


> I'm going with black ceramic, date, blue line, flat crystal with inner AR.
> 
> I advised against the domed crystal since it wont have inner AR and we know that it reflects like crazy. I love the shape but it kills the look of the watchface.
> 
> I'm going no cyclops too since I think it makes it more homage than imitator. With the new fully indexes insert and no cyclops, it'll be a cool hybrid of sub and sea dweller.


That's exactly why I'm still on the fence re. cyclops. I like the sub look but I also like the seadweller style and the full markers insert leans towards that.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

I'm getting black ceramic, date, blue lume, no cyclops, domed crystal and satellite movement. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> That's exactly why I'm still on the fence re. cyclops. I like the sub look but I also like the seadweller style and the full markers insert leans towards that.


I'm debating whether to go with a white datewheel or black like the one I have now.










I think white to stick with the sea dweller theme.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Tough decision. The stealth black background does suit the watch.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> I'm debating whether to go with a white datewheel or black like the one I have now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn... I didn't know the black date wheel was an option??  

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm personally not a fan of the black date wheel because while the white date wheel still messes up the symmetry, on regular glances at a dial with black date wheel it seems like there's nothing there in that area so it seems like something is missing from the artistic design. White date wheels don't look as good as a no date (but makes up for it if you need the practicality of a date window) but still looks better than black from an artistic standpoint IMO.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> I'm personally not a fan of the black date wheel because while the white date wheel still messes up the symmetry, on regular glances at a dial with black date wheel it seems like there's nothing there in that area so it seems like something is missing from the artistic design. White date wheels don't look as good as a no date (but makes up for it if you need the practicality of a date window) but still looks better than black from an artistic standpoint IMO.


I agree. white date background adds balance to the dial

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Axinnon said:


> I'm personally not a fan of the black date wheel because while the white date wheel still messes up the symmetry, on regular glances at a dial with black date wheel it seems like there's nothing there in that area so it seems like something is missing from the artistic design. White date wheels don't look as good as a no date (but makes up for it if you need the practicality of a date window) but still looks better than black from an artistic standpoint IMO.


I agree! It took me a while to notice that but once I did, I had the same thought. Ginaults black date wheel makes the issue even worse since they don't have an applied index at 3 o'clock

In contrast, take my Omega PO 2201.50. It has a similar datewheel (silver on black) but since there's an applied, lumed index at 3 o'clock, it looks balanced.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> mrmorfo said:
> 
> 
> > That's exactly why I'm still on the fence re. cyclops. I like the sub look but I also like the seadweller style and the full markers insert leans towards that.
> ...


Vintage!!!


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Reminds me on my Seamaster quartz. Man what a great watch regret selling it but I just got bored with it...
Dial was top notch way better than Rolex ever made. The date wheel, slope for the date, quick date change, Rolex never made anything like it and will never make in one thousand years.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

marinemaster said:


> Reminds me on my Seamaster quartz. Man what a great watch regret selling it but I just got bored with it...
> Dial was top notch way better than Rolex ever made. The date wheel, slope for the date, quick date change, Rolex never made anything like it and will never make in one thousand years.


Nice! I had one of those too but got annoyed by how the second hand didn't strike perfectly on the markers, lol. Upgraded it to his mechanical brother.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> correct!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


That's a good news.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Any picture from version 2 with ceramic bezel?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> Any picture from version 2 with ceramic bezel?


No, not yet. You can rest assured, that when they are available, they will be available here, almost immediately(possibly sometime next week, at least for the black bezel version)!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

According to the FB group some prototype photos have been sent to key members in the community... they said it looks really good. We should be getting photos any day now I'd imagine.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> According to the FB group some prototype photos have been sent to key members in the community... they said it looks really good. We should be getting photos any day now I'd imagine.


...that is interesting; I wonder if someone could track down some of those photos and post them here!


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Could this OR2 have been outsourced? If they are made inland then they should have an actual watch already at this point considering they are close to the release date. I find it difficult to believe that they finish at the same time.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

MX54LIFE said:


> Could this OR2 have been outsourced? If they are made inland then they should have an actual watch already at this point considering they are close to the release date. I find it difficult to believe that they finish at the same time.


what? ? ?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

DanBYU said:


> what? ? ?


I think what he/she is trying to ask is that if it is made, stateside, and they are this close to the release date, why is there not a view able/visible prototype that can be displayed for the potential buyers to see? It would seem logical, at this point, that they should have an actual, fully prepared, prototype.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

I think the normal is that Ginault must give up to the people pictures from new version...so maybe we put new order


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

My guess is he's having issues with one of his suppliers, most likely the ceramic bezel maker as that seems to be the peice he's waiting for to complete the puzzle. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

drttown said:


> I think what he/she is trying to ask is that if it is made, stateside, and they are this close to the release date, why is there not a view able/visible prototype that can be displayed for the potential buyers to see? It would seem logical, at this point, that they should have an actual, fully prepared, prototype.


Well, since they appear to be sending out ORIIs with the aluminum bezel based on what I heard, they certainly could post pictures and the only thing that would be different is the bezel which probably looks slightly different (maybe different reflective properties, maybe different text, etc.).

On the other hand, despite the improvements (movement, bezel, slight configuration changes) most of the differences are probably not going to be very noticeable from the outside. I'd like to see a picture, but even if we did, it would probably look nearly identical. I'm I'm guessing the same thing with the bracelet. it's already great from what people say, I suspect the improvements will be subtle.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

drttown said:


> DanBYU said:
> 
> 
> > what? ? ?
> ...


Exactly......so it seems that there was no prototype after all since all I could find are drawing renditions.......but people are lining up so it is a good thing. Keeping my bets ready.....


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Tbh, the only thing I want to see is the ceramic insert, actually. You can't see "the clicks" and some of the new OR1 on sale have already the new bracelet (the trick is to look for three fixed links instead of 4). So, happy to wait until they have the new insert.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

jerseydan31 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just received the same pics via email from Ginault, plus lots of hype juicy info!

Notice that they accidentally cracked the counter sample insert...the drawback of ceramic! They said that they're still perfecting the insert with respect to the engraving depth and angle of the cut. Pre orders should start shipping in late October/November.

My next post will include the hype, juicy words they shared in the email.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Looks really good. Doesn't seem as busy as I thought it might have turned out to be, thankfully. Really cool.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Ginault’s latest email to pre-order customers: 

“We have finally received the counter sample of the black ceramic insert here at our shop after Memorial Day weekend, and we are super excited to mount it to our OR2 for a trial. 

The pictures won't be the final version of the OR2. This is still work-in-progress, an update to show you what the OR2 with a ceramic insert would look like beyond just the render. There are still a few aspects on the insert that can and shall be improved. The OR2 won't be released until we are completely happy with all the components as the OR2 is likely going to be the final iteration to the Ocean Rover line before we discontinue it so we have to make it perfect! 

Many may think the Ocean Rover 2 project is just mounting a ceramic insert to the current Ocean Rover. Although that is the goal, mounting a ceramic insert to the classic 5 digit mid-case while maintaining the right proportion is harder than it looks. In fact, it is a very daunting and technically challenging task. The R&D and engineering process alone took us more than a year to get to this point. The final result is what many wished Rolex should have made, marring the modern features from the 6-digit SubC to the classic 5-digit's body and proportion recreating what we envisioned the perfect MilSub 5513/5517 ought to be if Rolex were to issue its modern version today. 

There will be a delay on the blue ceramic variants as we are working with our supplier trying to get the blue tone exactly the way we want. 

We are still aiming for Oct to Nov time frame to begin shipping the OR2 pre-orders in the order it was received. (blue variants may have some delay as 
mentioned)

That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.

Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke. 

If you haven't joined our FB fan club be sure to join Ginault Watch Club This is an independently run fan page by Ginault owners where they discuss everything Ginault related. 

Also, be sure to follow us on our IG account as well if you haven't already 

Sincerely 

John McMurtry”


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I'd like to add that my issue with the minute markers being gone is partially negated now with the minute markers on the bezel... so that's also cool.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)




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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Looks good! It is too bad that they cracked the ceramic, and I’m also sad to hear that this will be a shorter run. 

I hope they post more of a angled shot, I am interested to see how deep the minute markers are on the bezel 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)




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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Also looking forward to seeing a gold sand lume, although seeing the ceramic bezel now makes me agree that the two may not mix well together. The modern/vintage mix probably won’t mix well. 

It is too bad as I was trying to convince myself that the gold sand lume model might allow me to get one and keep my newly acquired Monta Ocean King, but now I’m less sure


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> Also looking forward to seeing a gold sand lume, although seeing the ceramic bezel now makes me agree that the two may not mix well together. The modern/vintage mix probably won't mix well.
> 
> It is too bad as I was trying to convince myself that the gold sand lume model might allow me to get one and keep my newly acquired Monta Ocean King, but now I'm less sure
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I thought about the first-gen gold sand lume with their black&silver insert....but it actually works really well together.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

marinemaster said:


>


Man!! That thing is a BEAUT !!!!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

From John at Ginault:

That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.

Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke. 


Unless I misunderstood John’s email, it sounds like Ginault will not be making, or selling, any more watches to the general public...are they just going to clear out any current inventories and then only build for current, existing customers?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Sorry, double post!


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

The more I look at the prototype pictures the more I am drawn to it. The details and everything on that thing is amazing.

I really can't believe they made it happen. When they did the OR1 it shook the industry by saying that we as WIS can ask for better Sub homages in terms of quality and craft. The OR2 is imho redefining what paying tribute and what homage watch mean as a whole.


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

Why post a pic cracked ceramic bezel insert? The demise of the best sub homage? 
This does not look and sound promising for OR2.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

drttown said:


> I think what he/she is trying to ask is that if it is made, stateside, and they are this close to the release date, why is there not a view able/visible prototype that can be displayed for the potential buyers to see? It would seem logical, at this point, that they should have an actual, fully prepared, prototype.


Their cases and other metal components are, (bracelet from Asia if I recall correctly) But I don't think Ginault ever said anything about the ceramic insert being made stateside.


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## butterflyer (Jul 17, 2019)

One cracked bezel on a pre-production prototype does not a demise make.

Thumbs up to the manufacturer for providing pre-order holders with actual photos.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

I just placed my pre-order on the OR2 with a black ceramic insert no-date smurf lume, thinking if I should get the date variant as well......

Folks on the FB fan page are saying the OR2 handles even more solid and premium than the OR1. It is really amazing what they are doing there. Really taking this microbrand industry to another level and the OR2 is looking more and more like its own watch rather than just a homage of something.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

I don’t know how I feel about the ceramic now.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

DP


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

If Ginault ends up going in this direction with the ceramic bezel and fails to make it look closer to the Sea Dweller’s ceramic, then this would be a huge letdown IMO. However, Ginault is true quality. I know this is just a “test” but I hope they really execute on this.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

MattG05 said:


> If Ginault ends up going in this direction with the ceramic bezel and fails to make it look closer to the Sea Dweller's ceramic, then this would be a huge letdown IMO. However, Ginault is true quality. I know this is just a "test" but I hope they really execute on this.


Respectfully, I cannot disagree more. The whole idea of an Ocean Rover is making a modern iteration of the 5513/5517, designing the MilSub from Rolex's vantage point. And I think they knocked it out of the park with the direction of the OR2. Love the ceramic insert and using the mini dots going all the way around giving the Ocean Rover even more of the MilSub vibe, a modern version that is.

I was afraid the fully indexed insert would be too "busy" but these photos showed me that Ginault executed it perfectly on the OR2. Everything Ginault did to the OR2 is carefully thought out imho, folks there really know what they are doing.

The OR2 looks spectacular with the new ceramic insert matching perfectly with the MilSub spec maxi dial, and the sword hands


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Preorder finish...never mind


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> Preorder finish...never mind


Did you ask John?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Is it me or the crystal is also better? Look at the cyclops, it has the bevelled edges that the original Rolex crystals have, which give them that white contour effect. Also with AR coating so we'll be able to finally see the date, haha.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Did anyone notice the minute markers in the bezel insert being bigger between the 0 and 15 position???

NOICE! The watch pictures very well!!


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## GMArthur (Aug 22, 2008)

I think they have done a good job with the ceramic. I still prefer the look of the aluminum bezel however. I’ll stick with my original OR and enjoy all the pics of the new models when you all post them up. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

drttown said:


> From John at Ginault:
> 
> That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.
> 
> ...


That's how it reads to me also. My question is: 'Why' make that choice? And did they ever reach a conclusion with that investigation they mentioned a while back? This seems to create more questions now instead of answering them.

Seems odd they'd consider that. The watches seem to sell quickly.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

drttown said:


> From John at Ginault:
> 
> That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.
> 
> ...


I didn't read that as not making any more watches in the future, they are just going to branch out from the OR. I know there was talk of doing a GMT at some point, hopefully an original design at some point. I would love a sword hand 36mm explorer. We'll see what they come out with, but I don't think Ginault is done though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

They're just done with the OR and will move on to other watches

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

My money is on a GMT although I'm secretly hoping for one of these


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

I agree, I just have a problem with the way the current ceramic bezel insert looks. If you look at the 5513/5517’s bezel, the triangle with the lume pip should not be that wide. I know I will most likely be proven wrong when the final pics come in, but something about the prototype’s bezel insert feels cheap. Like I said, I bet I will be proven wrong and pics never really do do an ocean rover justice.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

drttown said:


> Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke.


Looks like the haters got what they wanted in the end. It's a shame... but he's right about the used prices they're e going to skyrocket!

Hopefully it's not the end for them and they'll continue making watches.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> That's how it reads to me also. My question is: 'Why' make that choice? And did they ever reach a conclusion with that investigation they mentioned a while back? This seems to create more questions now instead of answering them.
> 
> Seems odd they'd consider that. The watches seem to sell quickly.


Why make that choice?? They had no choice! That expose caused quite a stir and they've pretty much been blackballed from the industry as a result. It's damage control at this point and It's the only logical step.

As for the conclusion to the investigation don't be a wiseass! you already know the answer to that one....

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Premise (Jul 31, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> My money is on a GMT although I'm secretly hoping for one of these


Did any variation of the Silent Service ever come out?


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

butterflyer said:


> One cracked bezel on a pre-production prototype does not a demise make.
> 
> Thumbs up to the manufacturer for providing pre-order holders with actual photos.


Perhaps and hopefully not but presenting a highly regarded personal piece such as a man's watch in a broken and incomplete state is not acceptable. The ceramic bezel insert which is the external highlight of the OR2 is rendered broken? The heralded bracelet is missing? I know this is just the initial response to the twitting hungry birds but my golly this watch is an homage to the greatest diver of all times as most regard if not all diver lovers.
For a casual watch lover as myself being told that a watch brand is not gonna be offered no longer and is currently available to the selected few validates my fear. 
As for the price skyrocketing? Well time will tell although I doubt it much for any homage. For sure it will continue to pass hands as it still remains a beautiful watch......


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

MX54LIFE said:


> Perhaps and hopefully not but presenting a highly regarded personal piece such as a man's watch in a broken and incomplete state is not acceptable. The ceramic bezel insert which is the external highlight of the OR2 is rendered broken? The heralded bracelet is missing? I know this is just the initial response to the twitting hungry birds but my golly this watch is an homage to the greatest diver of all times as most regard if not all diver lovers.
> For a casual watch lover as myself being told that a watch brand is not gonna be offered no longer and is currently available to the selected few validates my fear.
> As for the price skyrocketing? Well time will tell although I doubt it much for any homage. For sure it will continue to pass hands as it still remains a beautiful watch......


You're making this a much bigger deal than it is. His prototype is not complete and it broke, but the community was very hungry for a sample so he put it out to satiate them while stating it's not in a finished state.

You need to relax.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Premise said:


> Did any variation of the Silent Service ever come out?


No, it only exists as a prototype


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

jerseydan31 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amazing! Very nice pictures, despite of the broken ceramic. I'm not a fan of shiny things, which would me go for the aluminium bezel.



DanBYU said:


> I just placed my pre-order on the OR2 with a black ceramic insert no-date smurf lume, thinking if I should get the date variant as well......


This would be my watch. Having the original OR makes it very hard to me to buy another piece.

Look forward to seeing more pics!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Check prices of any Gevril Tribeca and try to keep in mind it was originally a $3k homage. Now you can't get any of the initial batches for less than $8k and the NOS ones are not far from that price.

Just food for thought for all the ones thinking Ginault will fade away into oblivion ;-)


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Amazing! Very nice pictures, despite of the broken ceramic. I'm not a fan of shiny things, which would me go for the aluminium bezel.
> 
> This would be my watch. Having the original OR makes it very hard to me to buy another piece.
> 
> Look forward to seeing more pics!


Agreed. I think ceramic is too delicate. One knock against something hard, or being dropped will cause it to shatter. Plus the shiny finish isn't in keeping with the vintage vibe. I would also go with aluminum. 
Looking forward to seeing what Ginault brings out next. If its a big enough departure from my OR1 I will be placing an order.


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> Check prices of any Gevril Tribeca and try to keep in mind it was originally a $3k homage. Now you can't get any of the initial batches for less than $8k and the NOS ones are not far from that price.
> 
> Just food for thought for all the ones thinking Ginault will fade away into oblivion ;-)


Despite the few sour grapes members here, most of us understand the value in the Ocean Rover 1. And the used market has proven that the prices retain pretty well even after that whole shenanigans expose crap. That really goes to show how much quality and craft is in the Ocean Rover.

Now the OR2, I really think Ginault is doing this project from the approach of an extreme hobbyist, at their pre-order prices, the OR2 is extremely undervalued. The OR2's concept and vision is taking itself away from just being a homage but actually making the MilSub/5digit Sub better!

Funny if Rolex were to adopt such route, people would be lining up miles and miles long for a Sub like this.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

DanBYU said:


> Despite the few sour grapes members here, most of us understand the value in the Ocean Rover 1. And the used market has proven that the prices retain pretty well even after that whole shenanigans expose crap. That really goes to show how much quality and craft is in the Ocean Rover.
> 
> Now the OR2, I really think Ginault is doing this project from the approach of an extreme hobbyist, at their pre-order prices, the OR2 is extremely undervalued. The OR2's concept and vision is taking itself away from just being a homage but actually making the MilSub/5digit Sub better!
> 
> Funny if Rolex were to adopt such route, people would be lining up miles and miles long for a Sub like this.


Yeah but they're already lined up miles long (figuratively), so much so that waiting lists are something of a joke. I expect this is substantially because Rolex decreased the numbers of steel sports watches, but they don't really need to increase demand. I suspect though that a Rolex "homage" to the Ocean Rover would be VERY popular among collectors (at least among the rich, well connected collectors who can actually convince the ADs to sell them watches).

Heck what Rolex should probably really do is invite Ginault to be sold in Rolex dealers as a way to lower the pressure on steel sports watches and give the dealers something that they can put in the display cases (for a change, you know, instead of empty display cases). Tudor really isn't cheap enough anymore to be considered "affordable." I know Rolex buyers are conditioned to think $3000 is dirt cheap, but for most people it's not.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> Agreed. I think ceramic is too delicate. One knock against something hard, or being dropped will cause it to shatter. Plus the shiny finish isn't in keeping with the vintage vibe. I would also go with aluminum.
> Looking forward to seeing what Ginault brings out next. If its a big enough departure from my OR1 I will be placing an order.


Personally I have never heard of anyone breaking their ceramic on a watch but I've seen hell of a lot of scratched aluminum... I think as far as damage proof goes ceramic just blows aluminum out of the water

Also as far as vintage goes, Ginault ceased being a vintage-only watch once blue smurf lume was available. If you opt in for blue smurf lume and a flat crystal with AR over a dome crystal with no ar + sand lume, there's pretty much nothing vintage about the watch anymore. so ceramic fits in beautifully with the aforementioned options stated.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Axinnon said:


> Personally I have never heard of anyone breaking their ceramic on a watch but I've seen hell of a lot of scratched aluminum... I think as far as damage proof goes ceramic just blows aluminum out of the water
> 
> Also as far as vintage goes, Ginault ceased being a vintage-only watch once blue smurf lume was available. If you opt in for blue smurf lume and a flat crystal with AR over a dome crystal with no ar + sand lume, there's pretty much nothing vintage about the watch anymore. so ceramic fits in beautifully with the aforementioned options stated.


Plenty of examples on Google. Ceramic might have superior scratch resistance but it definitely does not do well in an impact. Aluminum inserts are easy to replace and cheap.

For me the vintage vibe is created by the 40mm case dimensions, domed crystal, sword hands and lug design. Color of lume is irrelevant. I don't think anyone is fooled by the custard sand-lume mimicking patina.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> Plenty of examples on Google. Ceramic might have superior scratch resistance but it definitely does not do well in an impact. Aluminum inserts are easy to replace and cheap.
> 
> For me the vintage vibe is created by the 40mm case dimensions, domed crystal, sword hands and lug design. Color of lume is irrelevant. I don't think anyone is fooled by the custard sand-lume mimicking patina.


40mm is not a vintage size by any means. It is still highly popularized today. The case dimensions is of the 5 digit submariner which I'd hardly consider vintage(yet at least), and the lug design again is part of the watch case dimensions so that's a bit redundant.

I mean look at the 2.0 prototype. The ceramic bezel is not at opposites with literally anything on that watch. I don't feel a vintage vibe from anything on that watch at all.

You have to specifically ask for the domed crystal for the 2.0, it's not even an option unless you ask for it, and most people will stick to flat in favor of AR -- and I'd argue that the color of the lume is actually HIGHLY relevant in terms of vintage design. Vintage design is correlated and mostly associated with faux custard lume. The gold sand lume was literally created for the vintage appeal. I'd consider it intellectually dishonest to even argue otherwise...

And yes I'm sure there's plenty of examples on google of ceramic breaking, but I think it's still fair to say that aluminum is damaged way more than ceramic is.

On the Mohs scale ceramic is a 7 while aluminum is a ~2.5 -- you'd have to drop your watch hard to really break ceramic. I never dropped a watch. but I ran my ceramic watches into doorways and plenty other objects and they look brand spanking new whereas my aluminums all look scratched to bits.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Ordered today with John...still phase 1 discount. With date, no cyclops, domed crystal, negative date wheel, black ceramic bezel. The wait is on...

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

I wonder if it would look cleaner with the minute markers the same size all the way around the bezel insert and a smaller triangle at 12. 


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

I haven't decided if I'm going to take the plunge on the OR2 or not but am really glad to hear Ginault is going to break out and start making their own designs.

When the expose came out, I made the analogy of them potentially being like an artist that originally got their start selling knock off copies of paintings outside the Louvre. You buy those knowing they aren't really a Van Gogh or Monet but they are still lovely to look at look great on the wall. 

I think the better analogy now is of a band that starts off playing cover songs at a bar. People have a good time and dance and sing along. But no matter how awesome you play those cover songs, you'll never break out from the bar scene until you start writing and performing your own stuff (unless you become a full on tribute band and even then, your ceiling is pretty low). 

Ginault has perfected their cover songs, its time to write their own stuff. Based on how well they performed so far, I'm excited to see what they come up with. Hopefully it will be a hit.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> I haven't decided if I'm going to take the plunge on the OR2 or not but am really glad to hear Ginault is going to break out and start making their own designs.
> 
> When the expose came out, I made the analogy of them potentially being like an artist that originally got their start selling knock off copies of paintings outside the Louvre. You buy those knowing they aren't really a Van Gogh or Monet but they are still lovely to look at look great on the wall.
> 
> ...


I hope they make some original designs in the near future too, but I have a feeling their next release will be a GMT Master II homage, and an original design will be further down the road. I hope to be proven wrong though!

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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> I haven't decided if I'm going to take the plunge on the OR2 or not but am really glad to hear Ginault is going to break out and start making their own designs.
> 
> When the expose came out, I made the analogy of them potentially being like an artist that originally got their start selling knock off copies of paintings outside the Louvre. You buy those knowing they aren't really a Van Gogh or Monet but they are still lovely to look at look great on the wall.
> 
> ...


Perfect analogy.


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

DanBYU said:


> Folks on the FB fan page are saying the OR2 handles even more solid and premium than the OR1.


How are people able to "handle" this model when, as far as I've seen, there is just one pic of one prototype out?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

hidden by leaves said:


> How are people able to "handle" this model when, as far as I've seen, there is just one pic of one prototype out?


I think someone who ordered their new ORII with the Aluminum bezel has already received it.

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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

bolts40 said:


> I think someone who ordered their new ORII with the Aluminum bezel has already received it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


Yep, John said he's able to create and ship the OR2 with Aluminium bezel in 3 weeks so im guessing there's people out there who already have one.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> Yep, John said he's able to create and ship the OR2 with Aluminium bezel in 3 weeks so im guessing there's people out there who already have one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


And is it possible to get the aluminium one, pay for an extra ceramic insert, and replacenit further down the line? That would be interesting...


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> And is it possible to get the aluminium one, pay for an extra ceramic insert, and replacenit further down the line? That would be interesting...


Interesting but risky. The most likely time Ceramic inserts cracks are when they're being installed or removed.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> And is it possible to get the aluminium one, pay for an extra ceramic insert, and replacenit further down the line? That would be interesting...


Ginault told me aluminum and ceramic bezels can't be swapped on the OR2.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

What a lot of news has broken since I’ve been away for 5 days!

Yeah some microbrand watches can go up in value, MKii Kingston, timefactors dreadnought spring to mind... could be Ginault too... time will tell

Not all ceramic bezels are equal, let’s see what the OR2 brings

As a SubC owner... my Ginault is the sub I haven’t got! Not just thinner lugs, but maybe I’ll change the hands, or swap out the bezel inserts, or polish out the wear and tear myself or get the lugs drilled out or get the crystal AR coated or swap the straps 3 times a week with scant regard for the potential of scratch marks...

...all things I just can’t quite bring myself to do on my Sub


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> And is it possible to get the aluminium one, pay for an extra ceramic insert, and replacenit further down the line? That would be interesting...


John in his email said insert swapping is possible, but they don't recommend doing it often as the watch is not designed for this purpose. Rolex also never recommended such that's why you see most bezel swapping are done on DIY base.

Also, a ceramic insert is most prone to cracks and shatter while it is being installed or replaced. Once it is mounted, it should be left alone.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DanBYU said:


> John in his email said insert swapping is possible, but they don't recommend doing it often as the watch is not designed for this purpose. Rolex also never recommended such that's why you see most bezel swapping are done on DIY base.
> 
> Also, a ceramic insert is most prone to cracks and shatter while it is being installed or replaced. Once it is mounted, it should be left alone.


That was my understanding. However you can't install the ceramic bezel on an OR1.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DanBYU said:


> John in his email said insert swapping is possible, but they don't recommend doing it often as the watch is not designed for this purpose. Rolex also never recommended such that's why you see most bezel swapping are done on DIY base.
> 
> Also, a ceramic insert is most prone to cracks and shatter while it is being installed or replaced. Once it is mounted, it should be left alone.


I can imagine, yep. To be fair, I've handled more than one ceramic inserts, it's more a question of the inserts being of the same size (and depth!) so they can fit the same bezel. I don't think that's possible, and you can't swap bezels between an OR1 and OR2. I guess we'll have to wait!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> John in his email said insert swapping is possible, but they don't recommend doing it often as the watch is not designed for this purpose. Rolex also never recommended such that's why you see most bezel swapping are done on DIY base.
> 
> Also, a ceramic insert is most prone to cracks and shatter while it is being installed or replaced. Once it is mounted, it should be left alone.


The SubC bezels are held in with a gasket (made from a similar material as a crystal gasket) that Rolex suggests requires replacement every time the bezel is removed.

I'm curious to see how the OR2 bezel is retained.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I managed to place an order using the link in the e-mail John sent in May.

I wasn't going to get another Ginault, but those pics pushed me over the edge. No-date, smurf, black ceramic here.

Anyone want my ORI?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

WastedYears said:


> I wasn't going to get another Ginault, but those pics pushed me over the edge. No-date, smurf, black ceramic here.


Exactly the same happened to me this week


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

jarlaxle said:


> I haven't decided if I'm going to take the plunge on the OR2 or not but am really glad to hear Ginault is going to break out and start making their own designs.
> 
> When the expose came out, I made the analogy of them potentially being like an artist that originally got their start selling knock off copies of paintings outside the Louvre. You buy those knowing they aren't really a Van Gogh or Monet but they are still lovely to look at look great on the wall.
> 
> ...


Some people just prefer a cover song to an original though... just like i prefer a ceramic sub with a 5 digit case over the 6 digit.. a Rolex just can't scratch that itch that Ginault provides. So I am very thankful to Ginault.

But yes, I'm also very interested in their original designs coming up as well.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Waiting for his little brother to arrive


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## MX54LIFE (May 20, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> Waiting for his little brother to arrive


Just a beautiful time piece.....


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

cwfmon said:


> Waiting for his little brother to arrive


Without the original red second hand, something is different about this entire watch. But a beautiful piece non the less. Can we get a lume shot on this?


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> Without the original red second hand, something is different about this entire watch. But a beautiful piece non the less. Can we get a lume shot on this?


Here's a quick and dirty lume shot for you. It also has a dual AR coating on the stock domed crystal.


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> Waiting for his little brother to arrive


This second hand looks very nice.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Looks even better than the original in my opinion. 
Congrats


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Some people says there's too much text on the dial. I like it. I really like the flower logo on the dial and on the crown. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> Some people just prefer a cover song to an original though... just like i prefer a ceramic sub with a 5 digit case over the 6 digit.. a Rolex just can't scratch that itch that Ginault provides. So I am very thankful to Ginault.
> 
> But yes, I'm also very interested in their original designs coming up as well.


For me, the Ocean Rover first-gen is not really just a cover song but something more unique. I know at a glance it is very Sub-esque but if you are a true Submariner fan, then you will know the meaning behind the Ocean Rover and what the folks at Ginault is trying to achieve. But this may get a bit too nerdy for most. But if you are in the know, you will know the folks are 100% Sub nerds as well by looking at the Ocean Rover.

It is actually a very unique watch with its own identity.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

bolts40 said:


> This second hand looks very nice.


At first glance I quite like the secondhand mod. However on closer inspection it looks just a tad too big, a tad too long and does not have quite the right edge bevels. Proportionally its not quite right


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Porsche993 said:


> At first glance I quite like the secondhand mod. However on closer inspection it looks just a tad too big, a tad too long and does not have quite the right edge bevels. Proportionally its not quite right


Another true Rolex nerd, well-learned man, knows the essence and secret formula of that perfect Sub proportion.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

Porsche993 said:


> At first glance I quite like the secondhand mod. However on closer inspection it looks just a tad too big, a tad too long and does not have quite the right edge bevels. Proportionally its not quite right


You got a keen eye! A true WIS!

Personally I'm not a big fan of Ginaults red second. It's an accent that doesn't do much in terms making the design better.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I can understand replacing the red seconds hand with a more sterile SS even though I like the red. But I'd believe it's going to be hard to find a genuinely good quality seconds hand to replace it with as Porsche993 points out.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Its definitely a very good effort. Especially considering the more difficult to match BGW9 lume which will restrict options even more.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

To be fair, it's difficult to find a dagger seconds hand either in blue lume or vintage sand lume. Same for mercedes hands. I had to buy regular mercedes hands and relume them myself because nothing comes even near to the quality of the gold sand lume. Same goes for the mirror polished original Ginault hands, these are just superb. Look at them under a loupe and you'll see they are perfectly polished, and the edges are slightly bevelled which makes them reflect more light. Really good!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> mirror polished original Ginault hands, these are just superb. Look at them under a loupe and you'll see they are perfectly polished, and the edges are slightly bevelled which makes them reflect more light. Really good!


Agreed. Puts even some high end manufacturers to shame at any price point.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Cant tell the time on the rolex sub, the hands are way, way too skinny. They are so skinny that they belong on a dress watch. Btw the Mercedes hands are just that, a shameless copy of Mercedes logo. No originality.
And the new model is way disproportioned with the fat lugs.
Sub is a cow that rolex milks.


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

marinemaster said:


> Cant tell the time on the rolex sub, the hands are way, way too skinny. They are so skinny that they belong on a dress watch. Btw the Mercedes hands are just that, a shameless copy of Mercedes logo. No originality.
> And the new model is way disproportioned with the fat lugs.
> Sub is just a cow that rolex milks.


I remember reading somewhere that the Mercedes hour hands purpose was to be able to have a larger lume plot without the lume splitting. Idk though, there's multiple theories.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> To be fair, it's difficult to find a dagger seconds hand either in blue lume or vintage sand lume. Same for mercedes hands. I had to buy regular mercedes hands and relume them myself because nothing comes even near to the quality of the gold sand lume. Same goes for the mirror polished original Ginault hands, these are just superb. Look at them under a loupe and you'll see they are perfectly polished, and the edges are slightly bevelled which makes them reflect more light. Really good!


Really love this WIS/Rolex nerds talking about the aspects in the Ocean Rover that really matters. The details the folks at Ginault put in the Ocean Rover is to my eyes, work done by extreme hobbyist rather than business-minded people.

Here is another one fine detail I noticed that's changed on the OR2.....anyone?


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## DEV.Woulf (Jul 29, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> For me, *the Ocean Rover first-gen is not really just a cover song* but something more unique. I know *at a glance it is very Sub-esque* but *if you are a true Submariner fan, then you will know the meaning behind the Ocean Rover* and what the folks at Ginault is trying to achieve. But this may get a bit too nerdy for most. But if you are in the know, you will know the folks are 100% Sub nerds as well by looking at the Ocean Rover. *It is actually a very unique watch with its own identity*.


:-x

I do indeed know the meaning behind it and Ginault. Before the Ocean-Rover, and then after.... :-!


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## DanBYU (Feb 27, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> I can understand replacing the red seconds hand with a more sterile SS even though I like the red. But I'd believe it's going to be hard to find a genuinely good quality seconds hand to replace it with as Porsche993 points out.


Honestly speaking, before my first Ocean Rover I was not really on board with the red second hand. But after seeing the watch in the metal, I am VERY take to the idea. I think it makes a Ginault a Ginault.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Porterjrm said:


> I remember reading somewhere that the Mercedes hour hands purpose was to be able to have a larger lume plot without the lume splitting. Idk though, there's multiple theories.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is the what I have been told as well. The story I have heard is the older blends of lume paint were very weak and needed structure to support it. Any attempt to make a plot too large would result in the lume paint falling out. The "Mercedes" symbol offered the support. It had nothing to do with the auto brand. Other brands used "ladder" style hands with multiple small plots along the hand length or "steeple" (think Seiko Alpinist hands) style. It was more of a function over form thing to provide a frame to support multiple small lume plots rather than a single large plot that would ultimately split or fall out. For Rolex, it simply became their brand identity.


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## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

Ryeguy said:


> This is the what I have been told as well. The story I have heard is the older blends of lume paint were very weak and needed structure to support it. Any attempt to make a plot too large would result in the lume paint falling out. The "Mercedes" symbol offered the support. It had nothing to do with the auto brand. Other brands used "ladder" style hands with multiple small plots along the hand length or "steeple" (think Seiko Alpinist hands) style. It was more of a function over form thing to provide a frame to support multiple small lume plots rather than a single large plot that would ultimately split or fall out. For Rolex, it simply became their brand identity.


This matches with what I've heard. In fact the very first Zodiac Sea Wolves used hands with a single large wedge of lume, but that was soon changed to include a metal "spine" in the middle because of those sorts of issues with the (radium) lume formulations of the time


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

DanBYU said:


> Really love this WIS/Rolex nerds talking about the aspects in the Ocean Rover that really matters. The details the folks at Ginault put in the Ocean Rover is to my eyes, work done by extreme hobbyist rather than business-minded people.
> 
> Here is another one fine detail I noticed that's changed on the OR2.....anyone?
> 
> View attachment 14457879


When are you going to reveal it?


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## notsothumpy (Apr 29, 2017)

The best thing ive read on this thread


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

From what I can see, the date font looks to be a little thicker and the number and line markers(which now go all the way around), on the bezel, are now etched in...I don't have a luope and my eyes aren't that great anymore to see much more in detail.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I thought the knurling on the bezel looked deeper...


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

been reading this thread for the past few days, man it's long. I have been out of this hobby for a while. Is this watch really worth the asking price? for a homage?


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

TheRealTC said:


> been reading this thread for the past few days, man it's long. I have been out of this hobby for a while. Is this watch really worth the asking price? for a homage?


Yes, I believe it is. It's very well made.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> been reading this thread for the past few days, man it's long. I have been out of this hobby for a while. Is this watch really worth the asking price? for a homage?


It's still like 14% of the price of the Submariner and that's if you have a best buddy who is a Rolex AD. If not maybe closer to 7%! Still not bad. To be fair, I also bought a Steinhart Ocean GMT the other day and it's a beautiful, accurate little watch at under $500. Those are good too. Still want my ORII though. Can't wait till I get the word to pay the balance.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

carbon_dragon said:


> It's still like 14% of the price of the Submariner and that's if you have a best buddy who is a Rolex AD. If not maybe closer to 7%! Still not bad. To be fair, I also bought a Steinhart Ocean GMT the other day and it's a beautiful, accurate little watch at under $500. Those are good too. Still want my ORII though. Can't wait till I get the word to pay the balance.


In regards to the Rolex, I read some stories where one gentleman had to wait 7 years to get his watch and another story said that someone had waited 2 years just to be told that they had to purchase a solid gold watch, along with the sub watch, in order to be able to purchase just the sub.... very shady, in my opinion. I think that the OR, at it's price point, is a very well made watch; especially when you can find them on the used market. With the talk of Ginault discontinuing the Ocean Rover line after the new model is released, I can see prices on the used market increasing!


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

I don't know how good an investment the ORII will be, but I expect it will be a very good watch indeed. Rolexes seem to come with a pretty unpleasant buying game where you have to convince the Rolex AD to grant you the extreme privilege of allowing you to give him thousands of dollars. It feels like trying to buy some illegal black market item. I feel like the exchange would get made on the docks at midnight.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Well, truth be told, you won't buy a Submariner straight from the AD unless you have a decent history of previous watches from them. But you can get one from any grey dealer in 24h worldwide delivery in your door. The problem is the massive markup you have to pay, of course.

I'm happy with my Ginault and there's no way I'm going through the "experience" of buying any professional series Rolex at any time. A Datejust perhaps (I really like the 116234 with silver dial), but definitely not playing the Sub/GMT/Explorer/Daytona game.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

well as I decided to perorder the OR II the worst part has to happen now: waiting :-D

also the whole Brexit thing worries me. As this (in case of hard brexit) might have an impact on the customs free deliveries within the EU.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Shizmosis said:


> well as I decided to perorder the OR II the worst part has to happen now: waiting :-D
> 
> also the whole Brexit thing worries me. As this (in case of hard brexit) might have an impact on the customs free deliveries within the EU.


I guess only if you are in UK? If you are in Austria you should be ok as it's sent from Germany, isn't it?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Unfortunately, not. It is shipped via the UK dispatch centre. In Berlin only the EU service centre is located.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Shizmosis said:


> Unfortunately, not. It is shipped via the UK dispatch centre. In Berlin only the EU service centre is located.


Brexit hasn't happened yet, and even if/when it does who knows what will happen with trade and tax, it won't be an overnight change


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

drttown said:


> In regards to the Rolex, I read some stories where one gentleman had to wait 7 years to get his watch and another story said that someone had waited 2 years just to be told that they had to purchase a solid gold watch, along with the sub watch, in order to be able to purchase just the sub.... very shady, in my opinion. I think that the OR, at it's price point, is a very well made watch; especially when you can find them on the used market. With the talk of Ginault discontinuing the Ocean Rover line after the new model is released, I can see prices on the used market increasing!


They are discontinuing the Ocean Rover? are they going to make something else or?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Here is what had been sent to me in an email from Ginault:

That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.

Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> Waiting for his little brother to arrive


Hi, nice looking watch. I am new to this hobby and would like to buy my first diver watch and I really like the Submariner design. Been looking at a few options and Steinhart is right now my top choice. Question, I don't see this silver second hand option from Ginault's site...Is this something they offered in the past?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

btcity380 said:


> Hi, nice looking watch. I am new to this hobby and would like to buy my first diver watch and I really like the Submariner design. Been looking at a few options and Steinhart is right now my top choice. Question, I don't see this silver second hand option from Ginault's site...Is this something they offered in the past?


Its owner modded the watch. Ginault never used a silver second hand, nor did they offer AR coating on the crystal. IMO Ginault F&F and design are leagues above Steinhart.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Its owner modded the watch. Ginault never used a silver second hand, nor did they offer AR coating on the crystal. IMO Ginault F&F and design are leagues above Steinhart.


Agree, I've had two Steinhart myself and ended up selling them both. I can't stand those straight lugs and the knurling on the bezel teeth, as well as the clasp. Nah, I'd rather spend more but get something I'm 100% happy with.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Agree, I've had two Steinhart myself and ended up selling them both. I can't stand those straight lugs and the knurling on the bezel teeth, as well as the clasp. Nah, I'd rather spend more but get something I'm 100% happy with.


I like mine. Great movement (ETA 2893-2 Elabore), they regulate it before sale, and the watches look great. I expect my ORII to be better, but this is pretty impressive for under $500.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

It's not that Steinhart are bad or anything (although full disclosure I returned mine as I didn't gel with it at all), in fact if one prefers >40mm and has the wrist to cope with the lugs then there's reasons that one might prefer one of the larger Steinharts...

Watches (like many things) are ultimately a game of diminishing returns. When you compare watch A with watch B you can usually see why (say) watch A costs more, but that doesn't make watch B bad or watch A worth spending the extra.

But, IMO the Ginault represents a fairly reasonable VFM proposition as it punches above its weight in fit/finish and the bracelet quality.

But it's not a cheap watch, you could get 3 watches from a different microbrand for the same coin..

That said, as a secondhand proposition the OR makes a far more compelling case (I got mine secondhand) as it should be significantly under 4 figures (well in $/€/£ anyway) and for that you really getting something very well made, with decent lume, an accurate high(ish) beat movement that has a great bracelet yet stylistically works on a variety of straps.

Not many microbrands can quite tick all of those boxes



carbon_dragon said:


> I like mine. Great movement (ETA 2893-2 Elabore), they regulate it before sale, and the watches look great. I expect my ORII to be better, but this is pretty impressive for under $500.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

So i have steinhart ocean one vintage red and I am impressed! I am ready to buy squale atmos ceramic...but I read so many thinks about ginault sub that it's very close to Rolex sub...it's truth? I must go for ginault ? Or squale?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> So i have steinhart ocean one vintage red and I am impressed! I am ready to buy squale atmos ceramic...but I read so many thinks about ginault sub that it's very close to Rolex sub...it's truth? I must go for ginault ? Or squale?


Go for the Ginault, you will not be disappointed...and if for some reason it does not fit your fancy, you could always sell it here!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

carbon_dragon said:


> I like mine. Great movement (ETA 2893-2 Elabore), they regulate it before sale, and the watches look great. I expect my ORII to be better, but this is pretty impressive for under $500.


I had that exact same one, is that the 39mm? Bear in mind I'm not saying they aren't good watches, please don't think I said that. I am just saying they aren't my cup of tea, as I prefer a closer look to the original they pay homage to. Setting the homage thing aside and if one values the watch for that it is, the new Steinharts, at 39mm or 42mm are great watches at that price bracket, at the level of $1000 or more watches (Hamilton, Tissot, some Longines. some Tag, etc).


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

More pics released


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Ok, that looks amazing.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Dang that is pretty. I have been debating between selling my Monta Oceanking to jump back on the pre-order, and I think this has convinced me. Now I just need for Monta to ship out the Atlas since I want to swap the bracelets before I sell and have 2 glidelock equipped watches. 

Hopefully they show some pics of the Gold Sand lume with the ceramic soon. I really like the GS lume but am worried it won’t work with the ceramic 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tweaked2 (Nov 23, 2018)

Where is a link to this watch? Thanks!



cwfmon said:


> More pics released


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Thats gorgeous looking watch.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

tweaked2 said:


> Where is a link to this watch? Thanks!


Sorry but there is no link to the ORII, you have to send an email to Ginault and ask to be put on the waiting list for this watch along with placing a deposit. There is a facebook group about the ORII but no direct website pages or link.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> More pics released


What size is this watch?

I am a machinist, and i must say from the pictures, this watch is done with some good machining .

side of the link touching the lower left lug, not sure if it's just the angle tho (sorry occupation hazard)


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

been trying to read this thread from the beginning, very polarizing piece indeed. Are Sub homages usually debated with such heat? sorry new to this hobby (but long time admirer)


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

drttown said:


> Here is what had been sent to me in an email from Ginault:
> 
> That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.
> 
> Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke.


So what preceded "that said...."? Can anyone shed some more light on this? With just a blurb like this what is he saying? This is their last watch all of a sudden? Is this more hype to sell more watches? So how does the watch get serviced when the company sails into the sunset?

Please let me know if this just pertains to the OR2 or if Ginault is bailing altogether, like many predicted?

I don't want to fan any flames, nor did I participate in the bashing side of this brand and it's speculative operations.

A little clarity on the post would be helpful
Thanks


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

btcity380 said:


> been trying to read this thread from the beginning, very polarizing piece indeed. Are Sub homages usually debated with such heat? sorry new to this hobby (but long time admirer)


No. Oddly, only this one. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the motivations of those who are so singularly focused on this brand versus the dozens (hundreds) of others.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Riddim Driven said:


> So what preceded "that said...."? Can anyone shed some more light on this? With just a blurb like this what is he saying? This is their last watch all of a sudden? Is this more hype to sell more watches? So how does the watch get serviced when the company sails into the sunset?
> 
> Please let me know if this just pertains to the OR2 or if Ginault is bailing altogether, like many predicted?
> 
> ...


I can only hope it is due to them moving on to other designs.

My guess is they do not have the capacity to support multiple concurrent models, so to produce something new, they must retire something old (kinda like my watch buying).

My fingers are crossed for a sword hand, white dial, GMT using a jump hour GMT movement. Use the ORii case with the box crystal and I'd pull the trigger on that immediately.

If I were Ginault, I'd probably try to get as much mileage out of that case as I could. Maybe an Explorer I homage such as what MKii produced with their Vantage? That would be even simpler to produce as all it would require is a dial and fixed bezel.

Like you, I'd love to hear their plans for the future.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Why build a field watch in a dive case? An Explorer II in the rolex 5-digit case makes a better piece than an explorer I in that same case. The blank bezel would shrink the dial to nothing, and the crown guards would be abominable. 

If you can copy the 5-digit case, you can copy an Explorer case. 

On this Submariner Lovers thread, where sometimes there are interesting discussions rather than slavering and hollering, the future is as predictable as the past. Here’s hoping Ginault comes up with something new, which would beget a new kind of discussion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Riddim Driven said:


> So what preceded "that said...."? Can anyone shed some more light on this? With just a blurb like this what is he saying? This is their last watch all of a sudden? Is this more hype to sell more watches? So how does the watch get serviced when the company sails into the sunset?
> 
> Please let me know if this just pertains to the OR2 or if Ginault is bailing altogether, like many predicted?
> 
> ...


Here is their entire email:

We have finally received the counter sample of the black ceramic insert here at our shop after Memorial Day weekend, and we are super excited to mount it to our OR2 for a trial.

The pictures won't be the final version of the OR2. This is still work-in-progress, an update to show you what the OR2 with a ceramic insert would look like beyond just the render. There are still a few aspects on the insert that can and shall be improved. The OR2 won't be released until we are completely happy with all the components as the OR2 is likely going to be the final iteration to the Ocean Rover line before we discontinue it so we have to make it perfect!

Many may think the Ocean Rover 2 project is just mounting a ceramic insert to the current Ocean Rover. Although that is the goal, mounting a ceramic insert to the classic 5 digit mid-case while maintaining the right proportion is harder than it looks. In fact, it is a very daunting and technically challenging task. The R&D and engineering process alone took us more than a year to get to this point. The final result is what many wished Rolex should have made, marring the modern features from the 6-digit SubC to the classic 5-digit's body and proportion recreating what we envisioned the perfect MilSub 5513/5517 ought to be if Rolex were to issue its modern version today.

There will be a delay on the blue ceramic variants as we are working with our supplier trying to get the blue tone exactly the way we want.

We are still aiming for Oct to Nov time frame to begin shipping the OR2 pre-orders in the order it was received. (blue variants may have some delay as 
mentioned)

That said, there is a good chance the OR2 project won't be offered to the public, meaning the OR2 can only be purchased by existing customers and our FB Ginault Watch Club members. The pictures in this email are sneak peek exclusively for members who have placed their pre-orders.

Once we wrap up and fulfill the pre-orders, it is very likely we will not continue the Ocean Rover production. The Ocean Rover 2 is likely going to be the most sought after and yet most exclusive microbrand offer in the history of horology. Regardless of what people say about our brand and the Ocean Rover, the secondary market will have an honest reflection of how much it is really worth once news broke.

If you haven't joined our FB fan club be sure to join Ginault Watch Club This is an independently run fan page by Ginault owners where they discuss everything Ginault related.

Also, be sure to follow us on our IG account as well if you haven't already

Sincerely

John McMurtry


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> No. Oddly, only this one. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the motivations of those who are so singularly focused on this brand versus the dozens (hundreds) of others.


Sorry, but I don't think that those of us participating in the thread are "singularly focused". I would assume that most of us, in this thread, own watches by brands other than Ginault.


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## notsothumpy (Apr 29, 2017)

Sent email to Ginault
Are you stopping production on Ocean Rover?

Ginaults reply

YES. When the currant supply of ocean rovers is depleted that,s it. We have started making parts for our new watches of our own design


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

notsothumpy said:


> Sent email to Ginault
> Are you stopping production on Ocean Rover?
> 
> Ginaults reply
> ...


A New line of watches? Original designs? This should be good. Nice to know they're not giving up on the brand and attempting to push things forward in a new direction.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> No. Oddly, only this one. You can draw your own conclusions regarding the motivations of those who are so singularly focused on this brand versus the dozens (hundreds) of others.


Why is THIS Sub homage the single focus? what do you mean by motivation? Sorry new to all this, trying to read/learn as much as possible. fascinating stuff


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

btcity380 said:


> Why is THIS Sub homage the single focus? what do you mean by motivation? Sorry new to all this, trying to read/learn as much as possible. fascinating stuff


Brother, rewind to page 1 and start reading. It won't take long to figure it out. Few have the capacity, much less interest, to provide a fair, balanced summary.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> More pics released


So on the topic of being "authentic"what is the authentic model from Rolex that this is a homage of? This looks to me more like a fantasy watch with Submariner design elements. Sorry if I am wrong about this.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

btcity380 said:


> So on the topic of being "authentic"what is the authentic model from Rolex that this is a homage of? This looks to me more like a fantasy watch with Submariner design elements. Sorry if I am wrong about this.


Cmon, man, its a five digit with changed handset, movement, and crystal, easily replaceable with parts that fit and/or are found in any production five-digit. That's pretty much it as far as the watch goes. Oh, yeah, with a glidelock instead of folding clasp. Call it an upgrade if you like.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Riddim Driven said:


> So what preceded "that said...."? Can anyone shed some more light on this? With just a blurb like this what is he saying? This is their last watch all of a sudden? Is this more hype to sell more watches? So how does the watch get serviced when the company sails into the sunset?
> 
> Please let me know if this just pertains to the OR2 or if Ginault is bailing altogether, like many predicted?
> 
> ...


I believe this is the end of the OR but they have one of their designs coming next. IF it is the end of Ginault, both movements are ETA based and can be serviced locally. Also, most parts should be able to be sourced if something breaks and they aren't around.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

btcity380 said:


> Why is THIS Sub homage the single focus? what do you mean by motivation? Sorry new to all this, trying to read/learn as much as possible. fascinating stuff


Lets just say the people over at Ginault pretty much perfected the creation of the Submariner prior to making the ocean rover.

The OR was a showcase of what they're capable of and thier rendition of the "perfect submariner" borrowing the best ideas from the Submariners of old and new combined to make the perfect homage.

It's been met with mixed reviews.

Some people love it (most of us here) others hate it. Some question the origins and background of the owner and manufacturing process, others dont really care and can appreciate it for what it is.

The 1 thing no one questions is the build quality and fit/finish which is most would say is within touching distance of the real thing, leagues ahead of any other sub homages and on par with watches double its price.

It's caused a lot a headache (and possibly a few legal issues) for Ginault, the reason they've decided to abandon the idea and focus on new designs.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hwa said:


> Cmon, man, its a five digit with changed handset, movement, and crystal, easily replaceable with parts that fit and/or are found in any production five-digit. That's pretty much it as far as the watch goes. Oh, yeah, with a glidelock instead of folding clasp. Call it an upgrade if you like.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like a lot of parts are changed then....how about the bezel? 5 digit used something like this?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

It is exciting to hear that they will be making more original designs in the future. I am still surprised that they won’t continue production of the ORII in the meantime though. It sounds like working out the kinks of the ORII has been their primary R&D focus. That would mean a decent amount of time before they can actually design, prototype, and perfect something completely new 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

drttown said:


> Sorry, but I don't think that those of us participating in the thread are "singularly focused". I would assume that most of us, in this thread, own watches by brands other than Ginault.


I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. I meant those who participate only to post negative comments on this Sub homage yet are curiously absent of spouting similar vitriol on any of the dozens of other Sub homages (or homages to other brands).


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

@Porterjrm and drttown, notsothumpy -- Thank you folks very much for the follow-up on my query. I got it now.

Cheers
RD


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> More pics released


I can't find any information on their site about this piece...what size is this? thickness?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Ryeguy said:


> I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. I meant those who participate only to post negative comments on this Sub homage yet are curiously absent of spouting similar vitriol on any of the dozens of other Sub homages (or homages to other brands).


My apologies, I did read and interpret it wrong! That is an interesting and valid comment.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

btcity380 said:


> I can't find any information on their site about this piece...what size is this? thickness?


For the 2nd gen OK they haven't mentioned it on their website much as they are trying to keep it primarily to former owners, members of their and Facebook group, although if you shoot them an email they will give you more info and the link to purchase.

Basically it is the same as the original OR but better tolerances, better bezel action, and then options for a flat AR coated sapphire instead of the domed, non-AR of the original, option for ceramic bezel insert, and the option for a Sellita SW-200 movement

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

btcity380 said:


> I can't find any information on their site about this piece...what size is this? thickness?


Diameter: 40mm
Thickness: I have heard either 12.5 or 13mm
Lug to lug: 47.5
Lug width 20mm

Here is the original announcement email from several months ago. I believe they are still at their initial "phase 1" pricing, but you'd have to email them to confirm that 

























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

btcity380 said:


> I can't find any information on their site about this piece...what size is this? thickness?


There is no information about this watch on their site. You have to email them to be put on the list, they will then start to send you info on the watch. It is a 40mm size.

Appearance-wise, it remains 95% identical to the first generation. However, the second generation Rovers have gone through major internal upgrades. I highlighted the changes/upgrades in bold. 
40mm pre-ceramic style case, chamfered lugs, no holes 
high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices 
beveled sword hour/minute hands, custom Ginault red-second hand 
Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated 
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min fully graduated, lume pip at 12 o'clock
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned with a new Quattro-Coil support system for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is re-profiled with deeper, sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple layer optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist.


----------



## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

btcity380 said:


> been trying to read this thread from the beginning, very polarizing piece indeed. Are Sub homages usually debated with such heat? sorry new to this hobby (but long time admirer)


Well to certain degree most homages are fiercely debated.

Not everyone likes the idea of watch A taking design cues from watch B (although 100% original designs in watch making are not as common as you might think)

Usually most sub homages amount to a set of Mercedes hands and some dashes, dots and a triangle on the dial, with not a great deal of care taken to actually replicate the physical experience of owning the original

The Ginault is different... IMHO it's actually more of a pastiche than a homage as it takes elements from various submariners rather than one single model, but the area that Ginault have really focused on is capturing the fit and feel of the original

This has lead to an added layer of debate around this watch, as many parts of it are sufficiently close to the original to be interchangeable. Although there's nothing wrong with this _per se_ (after all your local watch parts depot can and will sell you many generic parts that fit a rolex, from bracelet screws to bezel inserts and crown tubes and crystals) it's got many people worked up

Another thing to note is the speculation of just how Ginault got so good at manufacturing Rolex spec parts that aren't made by Rolex (if you catch my drift....) any potential association with the dark side of the watch community understandably enrages many folks, even if it's a historical association

Re homages in GENERAL, they're a bit like monopoly money... a fun little game to play but remember you're not really rich, it's just monopoly money..

Re Ginault, it's a very, very well executed watch. If that's all that matters to you then there's no barrier to ownership, even if some folks find the notion of something that close to the original unsavoury. Of course if you do feel uncomfortable about that, then there's many other homages to chose from (from many brands homaging many other brands, not just Rolex) and give or take the MKii range, you'll pay less and end up owning something lesser.

You pay your own money, you make your own choice.


----------



## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Got an email from Strapcode this morning. If anyone wanted to have a Jubilee bracelet option, there is this....since the lug holes for this model match the model it is designed after, thought this would be nice to share with the group.

https://www.strapcode.com/products/metal-ss-bcl21-b079


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Dec1968 said:


> Got an email from Strapcode this morning. If anyone wanted to have a Jubilee bracelet option, there is this....since the lug holes for this model match the model it is designed after, thought this would be nice to share with the group.
> 
> https://www.strapcode.com/products/metal-ss-bcl21-b079


I just took a look at that and it says it is only compatible with the 1680 sub. I don't know all that much about various Rolex Sub generations, but I thought the Ginault case was based of the newer 5 digit sub, and thus it might not fit right

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

badgerracer said:


> I just took a look at that and it says it is only compatible with the 1680 sub. I don't know all that much about various Rolex Sub generations, but I thought the Ginault case was based of the newer 5 digit sub, and thus it might not fit right
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, that's correct. I don't know if those will line you or not. Neat bracelet option though if so.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Everyone needs to knock off the bickering, name calling, and attacks, and get the conversation back on topic. As a reminder, from our rules:
> 
> _2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the Moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the Moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.
> 
> Members who have personal issues with other members and Moderators must resolve their differences outside the forum. WatchUSeek policy is not to discuss issues with other forums._


By the way, allow me to repost a reminder of our boss' very kind words. Let's keep it on topic, as the boss said.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

The new OR 2.0 photos really looks more appealing and better put together than the 6 digit sub at 1/10th the price. I really can't wait for mine.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

cwfmon said:


> More pics released


These are awesome!

Any pics from the new clasp?


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## Brohall005 (Aug 19, 2019)

Same clasp as ORI


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## Stellite (Aug 3, 2011)

Still loving my original OR. I passed on the preorder for this one, but it is a beauty.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> For the 2nd gen OK they haven't mentioned it on their website much as they are trying to keep it primarily to former owners, members of their and Facebook group, although if you shoot them an email they will give you more info and the link to purchase.
> 
> Basically it is the same as the original OR but better tolerances, better bezel action, and then options for a flat AR coated sapphire instead of the domed, non-AR of the original, option for ceramic bezel insert, and the option for a Sellita SW-200 movement
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you very much. I have sent an email asking to be put on the list. Been considering buying the OVM but this may change the plan a bit.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> These are awesome!
> 
> Any pics from the new clasp?


I do agree, didn't know something like this existed before this forum.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Stellite said:


> Still loving my original OR. I passed on the preorder for this one, but it is a beauty.
> 
> View attachment 14487425


I'm with you in still enjoying my OG OR. There is something just "right" about the no date, sword hand, sand lume, and box crystal.

Plus, I'll again give praise to John and the Ginault team for their customer service. I'm really looking forward to their next release after the OR versions are complete.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> Well to certain degree most homages are fiercely debated.
> 
> Not everyone likes the idea of watch A taking design cues from watch B (although 100% original designs in watch making are not as common as you might think)
> 
> ...


Originally I was thinking about getting the OVM as my first diver. I love the Sub look but can't afford it. But now reading about this watch it's really got me thinking.

Thank you! sage advice, truly appreciate it!


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hwa said:


> Brother, rewind to page 1 and start reading. It won't take long to figure it out. Few have the capacity, much less interest, to provide a fair, balanced summary.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you mate! appreciate the advice. Been reading this thread for the past 2 days. Interesting to say the least.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> I can only hope it is due to them moving on to other designs.
> 
> My guess is they do not have the capacity to support multiple concurrent models, so to produce something new, they must retire something old (kinda like my watch buying).
> 
> ...


They produce their own parts? it sounds like? I thought most microbrands contract out their parts productions to watch factories in China?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

So I've gone back and forth and back and forth.... and back and forth re: putting a deposit down on the OR2. 

Decision made.

Placed a deposit this AM on a Blue Bezel Date w/ Smurf lume. I did so fully understanding that the blue is still a pretty big question mark and could take a very long time to receive (like sometime next year) and that's assuming they are actually able to get the blue to where they are happy with it. Crossing my fingers this all works out.

In the course of communicating with Ginault (contacted them via messenger on their website, they responded in minutes, ended up having a lengthy chat), they did make it clear that they are focused on their new, internal design(s) and want to wrap things up with the OR2 and move on so if you want one you better get your order in because when they are gone, they are gone. 

Let the waiting begin...


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> So I've gone back and forth and back and forth.... and back and forth re: putting a deposit down on the OR2.
> 
> Decision made.
> 
> ...


You made me cave too. I was planning on waiting until I sell my Monta Oceanking sometime next month, but I have the funds to put down a deposit at least. I'll pay the remainder after I make that sale.

I put down for a date, gold sand, and left the default for cyclops and ceramic. I am a little worried that the GS lume and ceramic won't mix, but if that is the case after they have some prototypes I will change it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

btcity380 said:


> They produce their own parts? it sounds like? I thought most microbrands contract out their parts productions to watch factories in China?


Yes, they claim to produce most of the parts for both the watch and the movement (exceptions being springs, movement jewels, dial, and maybe some other incidentals I am forgetting) in the United States through a network of contract machinists (think "cottage industry" where manufacturing is distributed).

There has been some significant debate about the veracity of this claim, but no one has offered any concrete proof either way. It comes down to whether you believe Ginault or you don't (you can probably already guess the members who don't believe).

FWIW, I exchanged an email with Ginault last evening thanking them for a positive resolution to my customer service issue (I accidentally dropped my OR and they fixed it). In the email exchange, they commented about driving to a CA city in order to meet with one of their contract manufacturers. The way the comment was phrased rang true to me, so either Ginault is engaged in an extremely long con, or they actually are manufacturing components of their watch in the US.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

btcity380 said:


> They produce their own parts? it sounds like? I thought most microbrands contract out their parts productions to watch factories in China?


Piggybacking on what Ryeguy said, the for sure claim that their machine the midcase, caseback, Crown, and bezel assembly in house. The majority of their caliber 7275 is either made in house, or if it is outsourced it is done to US manufacturers (with a few notible exceptions that Ryeguy mentioned that are from outside the US). The bracelet and bezel insert are for sure outsourced (although they work very closely with their manufacturers) as well as I believe the crystal is outsourced.

The Ginault review by the "take time w/Patrick Marlett" channel did a good breakdown in their part 2 video where he had asked Ginault what was made in the US and what wasn't

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

btcity380 said:


> They produce their own parts? it sounds like? I thought most microbrands contract out their parts productions to watch factories in China?


Just adding on to the last two responses, Ginault has added the option of an outsourced movement (Sellita SW 200) and that is in fact now the standard movement on the OR2. You can still request the "in house" 7275 movement but I believe even Ginault themselves are largely steering people toward the SW 200 at this point. I chose to go that route even though the reviews on the in house movement have been very positive given the SW 200 is pretty common and will be easy to repair/replace should that become a need at some point down the road.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

btcity380 said:


> They produce their own parts? it sounds like? I thought most microbrands contract out their parts productions to watch factories in China?


Not just microbrands ;-)


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Ryeguy said:


> Yes, they claim to produce most of the parts for both the watch and the movement (exceptions being springs, movement jewels, dial, and maybe some other incidentals I am forgetting) in the United States through a network of contract machinists (think "cottage industry" where manufacturing is distributed).
> 
> There has been some significant debate about the veracity of this claim, but no one has offered any concrete proof either way. It comes down to whether you believe Ginault or you don't (you can probably already guess the members who don't believe).
> 
> FWIW, I exchanged an email with Ginault last evening thanking them for a positive resolution to my customer service issue (I accidentally dropped my OR and they fixed it). In the email exchange, they commented about driving to a CA city in order to meet with one of their contract manufacturers. The way the comment was phrased rang true to me, so either Ginault is engaged in an extremely long con, or they actually are manufacturing components of their watch in the US.


This is exactly the point that some folks don't seem to grasp about the manufacturing industry.

There are companies that simply make stuff, as requested. Sometimes these companies are able offer new customers parts and services that old or existing customers have already utilised.

For example there's not that many companies that make wheel bearings or driveshafts for cars.... and if you're bringing a new car to market it's a lot cheaper to use an existing company with an existing part number..

The companies that manufacture widgets for watches, are likely to make widgets for other applications too

This notion that anyone this side of Roger Smith is sitting in a factory somewhere knocking out complete watches doesn't ring true.... you need massive volumes (and/or prices) for a completely in-house process

Even from the famous brands 'in-house' often means vertically aligned supply chain, then eventually an integrated supply chain...

When folks on watch forums jump up and down about the purity of the breed or the transparency of the manufacturing..... :roll:


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

adzman808 said:


> This is exactly the point that some folks don't seem to grasp about the manufacturing industry.
> 
> There are companies that simply make stuff, as requested. Sometimes these companies are able offer new customers parts and services that old or existing customers have already utilised.
> 
> ...


This is exactly correct. We can probably count the number of truly vertically integrated watch manufacturers on the fingers of one hand.

Way back in the early pages of this thread, when the veracity of the parts manufacturing claim was first raised, I stated how I thought it could be done by a small watch brand.

I grew up in an area where the major employer was an global aerospace manufacturer. Surrounding the major plant campus were dozens of small, independent, precision machine shops who opened business to subcontract the manufacturing of overflow and specialty work the major employer couldn't handle.

I could easily see how an enterprising watch brand with connections in this industry could contract one or more of these independent precision machine shops to manufacture basic movement and watch case components. Simply give them the CAD file and let them go to work. After all, watch components, no matter how precise we think they are, have nothing on the aviation and aerospace industry.

I have no way of knowing exactly what Ginault did, but given the number of aerospace manufacturers in CA, I can see it as a plausible theory.

In any event, at least the Ginault OR is certainly not just another run-of-the-mill Fullswing manufactured dive watch.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> I have no way of knowing exactly what Ginault did, but given the number of aerospace manufacturers in CA, I can see it as a plausible theory.
> 
> In any event, at least the Ginault OR is certainly not just another run-of-the-mill Fullswing manufactured dive watch.


I recall reading that they actually get the machining of many parts from gunsmiths in US, particularly the bezel. It makes a lot of sense as it's a craft that also requires high level precision and also steel-intensive work. I'm pretty sure all their steel parts come from these sources except the bracelet, which I seem to recall that came from China.

Still, "China" is a denomination with high elasticity, the iPhone 11 Pro comes from China, as it comes that new $5 speaker for your PC that will blow up in a week. China can produce quality at a constant level, but you have to pay for it.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

For anyone that has ordered, or is thinking about ordering the new ORII with the blue bezel, here is an interesting email I received from Ginault, after a recent inquiry about my order:

Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, right now there is an indefinite delay on the blue variant. Our supplier is having a hard time coming up with the blue that we want. So, at this point, we really don't even have a time frame to offer. 

I checked your pre-order, it was placed on May 20th. You will be among the very first batch to receive the Ocean Rover in Oct/Nov when we begin shipping if you opt for the black ceramic insert. 

I would advice going for the black first. And if/when the blue materialize, We can figure something out for you. 

Sincerely

John McMurtry


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

drttown said:


> For anyone that has ordered, or is thinking about ordering the new ORII with the blue bezel, here is an interesting email I received from Ginault, after a recent inquiry about my order:
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> ...


Let me preface this post by saying that I am not mad, just anxious and curious: I am wondering how long they were going to wait until they disseminated this information to all of us who ordered a blue version?


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

drttown said:


> I am wondering how long they were going to wait until they disseminated this information to all of us who ordered a blue version?


They were going to wait until their frustration level with the supplier reached the point where they felt like no deadline could be met. What other option was there? The watches still haven't shipped and he's telling you that switching to black will get you a watch in the timeframe you were hoping for. You'd be REALLY mad if he didn't say anything until november right?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

92gli said:


> They were going to wait until their frustration level with the supplier reached the point where they felt like no deadline could be met. What other option was there? The watches still haven't shipped and he's telling you that switching to black will get you a watch in the timeframe you were hoping for. You'd be REALLY mad if he didn't say anything until november right?


I think my question was more rhetorical and you may have misinterpreted my post(or I may not have worded it correctly). I am not mad at them like your post implies. Their last email to me stated that there was a delay with the blue bezel. Now they are saying that it may not happen at all.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

drttown said:


> I think my question was more rhetorical and you may have misinterpreted my post(or I may not have worded it correctly). I am not mad at them like your post implies. Their last email to me stated that there was a delay with the blue bezel. Now they are saying that it may not happen at all.


I didn't take it that way; where you mention it may not happen at all. Indefinite means it may take a while, but it will get done. May take 6 months, who knows. But it will happen.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Axinnon said:


> I didn't take it that way; where you mention it may not happen at all. Indefinite means it may take a while, but it will get done. May take 6 months, who knows. But it will happen.


Actually until it does happen you can't say for sure that it will happen. I went ahead and put my deposit down because I believe its likely they will eventually get there on the blue bezel but its not guaranteed.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

jarlaxle said:


> Actually until it does happen you can't say for sure that it will happen. I went ahead and put my deposit down because I believe its likely they will eventually get there on the blue bezel but its not guaranteed.


I mean, if Ginault says they believe it will happen and they have a fair track record for doing what they say, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I believe it will happen, it's just a matter of time.


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## v1triol (Jul 21, 2015)

cwfmon said:


> More pics released


Very nice.
Rolex should take notes how to design a balanced ceramic sub.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> I mean, if Ginault says they believe it will happen and they have a fair track record for doing what they say, I have no reason to believe otherwise. I believe it will happen, it's just a matter of time.


I agree. John and his team strike me as perfectionists probably the reason why its going to take a while but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

Has anyone with the blue bezel order thinking of switching to black or just waiting it out?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> I agree. John and his team strike me as perfectionists probably the reason why its going to take a while but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.
> 
> Has anyone with the blue bezel order thinking of switching to black or just waiting it out?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I switched to the black bezel; he told me that he would work something out with me when the blue one is available.


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

v1triol said:


> Very nice.
> Rolex should take notes how to design a balanced ceramic sub.


This is literally the sort of thing that gives this thread legs.

Slap a ceramic insert on a five-digit milsub and take design credit?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Sounds like they are having issues with the one item that’s not a replica. A blue ceramic bezel insert. Can you imagine the trouble they’d have designing their own watch. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

hkhan.001 said:


> Sounds like they are having issues with the one item that's not a replica. A blue ceramic bezel insert. Can you imagine the trouble they'd have designing their own watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Guess we will find out as that's exactly what they are doing as we speak.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

hwa said:


> Slap a ceramic insert on a five-digit milsub and take design credit?


You know perfectly well that Ginault has said from day one that they are making a Rolex homage. Earlier iterations of their site specifically and explicitly declaimed any design credit.

And that pic you posted? That's a watch that was designed by the British Ministry of Defense, and made to the provided design spec by Rolex.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

More pics (Black Bezel)

Message from John: 
"We will begin shipping OR2 pre-orders around Oct/Nov time frame in the order received. We will first fulfill our May pre-orders, then June, July, August so on and so forth."









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> This is literally the sort of thing that gives this thread legs.
> 
> Slap a ceramic insert on a five-digit milsub and take design credit?
> 
> ...


We have discussed this point before, you have never shown any moment they claim credit.

Ginault never took design credit, they stated over and over again that they're desigining a Mil sub homage if it were to exist in the current generation, paying full respects to Rolex and has mentioned them enough times for you to stop making this unfounded point.

Let the person have his opinion that Rolex can learn a thing or two for designing a proper ceramic submariner, it's not an illogical opinion to have.



hkhan.001 said:


> Sounds like they are having issues with the one item that's not a replica. A blue ceramic bezel insert. Can you imagine the trouble they'd have designing their own watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Blue bezel ceramic inserts are a thing on the.. guess what... blue submariner. There's also no replica of a 5 digit sized fully graduated ceramic bezel, that was created from scratch and is original.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

Mr Auto said:


> More pics (Black Bezel)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, regardless; it's a darn nice looking watch! I had the 1st iteration and enjoyed it and passed it on. I'm afraid this would be a safe queen, and wouldn't make it into rotation on a regular basis to warrant a purchase. It just doesn't fit my current tastes. Alas....


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Avo said:


> You know perfectly well that Ginault has said from day one that they are making a Rolex homage. Earlier iterations of their site specifically and explicitly declaimed any design credit.
> 
> And that pic you posted? That's a watch that was designed by the British Ministry of Defense, and made to the provided design spec by Rolex.


It's not even Ginault I'm referencing. Its the nattering nabob siren call of the acolytes who repeat and amplify much of the nonsense Ginault tried to move away from. If this place just moved away from trying to turn the Ginault into other than what it obviously is, perhaps the heat would have left the room ages ago.

That's all I'm saying. Go watch the guy who just launched a new SKX copy. He claims no design credit. "No ingenuity," as he puts it. Bravo for him.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Is it me, or are the numerals a bit dark on the bezel insert?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Is it me, or are the numerals a bit dark on the bezel insert?


Compared to the lume pips, yes. Though lighting could be playing a part. The numerals look fine in the 5th pic


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Is it me, or are the numerals a bit dark on the bezel insert?


it's the lighting. The bezel also looks blueish even though its black.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Hmmm... You guys are actually right, once it has direct light you can see the numerals clearly. I love the bevelled edges on the insert engravings, I have seen really horrible "ceramic" inserts and this one is just another level. This wait will be an absolute pain!!!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mrmorfo said:


> Is it me, or are the numerals a bit dark on the bezel insert?


It's due to platinum coating looking darker than white paint in certain lighting, just like the Rolex sub.

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> It's not even Ginault I'm referencing. Its the nattering nabob siren call of the acolytes who repeat and amplify much of the nonsense Ginault tried to move away from. If this place just moved away from trying to turn the Ginault into other than what it obviously is, perhaps the heat would have left the room ages ago.
> 
> That's all I'm saying. Go watch the guy who just launched a new SKX copy. He claims no design credit. "No ingenuity," as he puts it. Bravo for him.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So, let me get this straight.... when some guy produces a "homage" to the SKX which uses a Seiko movement and is "compatible with aftermarket parts... for the SKX007 models, such as crystals, bezels, inserts, chapter rings, dials, hands, bracelets, etc." you say "Bravo"

But when Ginault makes a "homage" to the decade out of production 5 digit case that can likely accept aftermarket Rolex parts (except hands unless the 2824 pinion is the same as the 3135 pinion), you "bring the heat".

Neither watch is all that original in design, but at least Ginault is referencing a design so far out of production that it is not pulling revenue from AD's who are still trying to sell the original.

Let's just say, I find your differing opinions on these two watches interesting.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hwa said:


> This is literally the sort of thing that gives this thread legs.
> 
> Slap a ceramic insert on a five-digit milsub and take design credit?
> 
> ...


Just to be fair, I don't think Rolex needs to take any note from anyone. They basically trail blazed this MilSub design, been there done that. However, the Ocean Rover 2 does look like a very nice revamp of the MilSub 5513/5517. While I love the vintage MilSub homage from Steinhart, this one from Ginualt is a very good looking modern interation which I don't think any other micros had done or tried. And from the pictures, and reviews read, this watch does seem like a very high end replica of Rolex's quality.

BTW what reference is a 5-digit MilSub? I know the 4 digit ones like 5513 and 5517. But I can't seem to recall any 5 digit reference for MilSub. Sorry for my ignorance.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Talking about modding and adding parts, i thought I would just leave some pics of some kind of blues





































Cheers! (^_^ )


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hkhan.001 said:


> Sounds like they are having issues with the one item that's not a replica. A blue ceramic bezel insert. Can you imagine the trouble they'd have designing their own watch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They already made the insert (black) from scratch I don't think they would have any trouble making a blue one if they didn't care about the tone of blue. From reading, it sounds like the trouble is with coming up with the right tone of blue which I can understand. Blue can be a tricky color to get right. I learned that having to repaint the fairing on my R6.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Talking about modding and adding parts, i thought I would just leave some pics of some kind of blues
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is a proper gentle man's tool watch! looking awesome!


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## hwa (Feb 18, 2013)

Ryeguy said:


> So, let me get this straight.... when some guy produces a "homage" to the SKX which uses a Seiko movement and is "compatible with aftermarket parts... for the SKX007 models, such as crystals, bezels, inserts, chapter rings, dials, hands, bracelets, etc." you say "Bravo"
> 
> But when Ginault makes a "homage" to the decade out of production 5 digit case that can likely accept aftermarket Rolex parts (except hands unless the 2824 pinion is the same as the 3135 pinion), you "bring the heat".
> 
> ...


Because you've ignored my central point from Day One. Whatever, dude, ignorance is bliss. I don't let line-drawing difficulties impede my efforts; i make a living off it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> e.
> 
> Blue bezel ceramic inserts are a thing on the.. guess what... blue submariner. There's also no replica of a 5 digit sized fully graduated ceramic bezel, that was created from scratch and is original.


Agreed. Many 16610 owners wanted to mod/mount a 116610 ceramic insert but the bezel ring of the 16610 won't take the ceramic insert from 116610. The fact that Ginault fitted a ceramic insert to a 5 digit ring meant they had to develop the ceramic inert with a priperitory spec just for this purpose which is a pretty capital heavy investment.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hwa said:


> Because you've ignored my central point from Day One. Whatever, dude, ignorance is bliss. I don't let line-drawing difficulties impede my efforts; i make a living off it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What is the effort?


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

hwa said:


> Because you've ignored my central point from Day One. Whatever, dude, ignorance is bliss. I don't let line-drawing difficulties impede my efforts; i make a living off it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think that anyone has ignored you or your points, they just choose not to entertain them. This, again, is the Ginault lovers thread. If you do not have anything substantive, or anything positive to add, please refrain from posting.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

drttown said:


> I don't think that anyone has ignored you or your points, they just choose not to entertain them. This, again, is the Ginault lovers thread. If you do not have anything substantive, or anything positive to add, please refrain from posting.


Hang on, I have indeed ignored him, lol. After so many pages of nonsense, just adding absolutely nothing to the table, I realised it was the best thing to do. And I must say it feels very good and makes this thread a better place. Same goes for many other fools (that's what I'd call anyone getting into a BMW AD to talk about how crappy BMWs are, basically). They just make themselves look like fools.


----------



## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Hang on, I have indeed ignored him, lol. After so many pages of nonsense, just adding absolutely nothing to the table, I realised it was the best thing to do. And I must say it feels very good and makes this thread a better place. Same goes for many other fools (that's what I'd call anyone getting into a BMW AD to talk about how crappy BMWs are, basically). They just make themselves look like fools.


Thanks, I was just trying to say, in a polite manner, that we are tired of feeding the trolls!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

hwa said:


> Because you've ignored my central point from Day One. Whatever, dude, ignorance is bliss. I don't let line-drawing difficulties impede my efforts; i make a living off it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep spinning... if nothing else, it is entertaining. Your central point has shifted so many times, it is hard to keep track.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


> Hang on, I have indeed ignored him, lol. After so many pages of nonsense, just adding absolutely nothing to the table, I realised it was the best thing to do. And I must say it feels very good and makes this thread a better place. Same goes for many other fools (that's what I'd call anyone getting into a BMW AD to talk about how crappy BMWs are, basically). They just make themselves look like fools.


I should do the same, but sometimes I can't help myself when I see such clear disparity on display. I'll stop so the discussion of the watch can continue.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


>


I bought a Ginault bracelet for a different watch and I will share what I liked and didn't like:

Like:
- Finish. Brushed on top, polished on the sides. The polished clasp bits on the inside were a nice treat, too.
- Screws. Ease of adjustment. 
- Fitment. Even though it was not a Ginault, it was built for the brand of watch for which I purchased it, and it fit very well, like near stock fitment.
- Heft. Compared to the stock bracelet, just a touch heavier.
- X-factor. With the heft, thickness, and finish, just came off as a better quality bracelet.

Dislike:
- Wish there had been one more link to take out from the 6 side. Understand that with a 20-16 taper, it might be asking too much, but...
- ...could not center the clasp under my wrist where I like, consequently watch would tend to slide up, toward my wrist bump, which I hate. 
- Half links might have been useful, too, but I can see where many would think them redundant because of the glidelock system. 
- And the reason I replied to those photos, above -- for whatever reason, I find that seeing the end of the first link is aesthetically displeasing. Stock bracelet has an actual 3-pc link, not a solid oyster link like these. And I like the H-Link on my Sinn 656L. Both have that extra point of articulation between the end-link and the first link, like a half-link step within the first link. Ends up with the side-link ends lying flat on my wrist, instead of canted up and exposed, like these.

Sold it along today. I'm sure buyer will be happy with it. Maybe I am too picky, but it just was not doing it for me. No issue with quality, only with subjective fit and aesthetics.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> I bought a Ginault bracelet for a different watch and I will share what I liked and didn't like:
> 
> Like:
> - Finish. Brushed on top, polished on the sides. The polished clasp bits on the inside were a nice treat, too.
> ...


That's one of the things they have changed in the new bracelet. They only have three fixed links on each side (like 6-digit sub bracelets) instead of 4 (like 5-digit sub bracelets). I asked John long ago and said it was going to be implemented as they had many people with small wrists asking about it. Later on he confirmed it's done and all new bracelets are like that.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

For all those hating on crummy little microbrands and their derivative theft driven designs....


The Omega Seamaster used to look like this...


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Oh, and it’s true that homaging another watch requires no intelligent design....

The Sharky MM300 homage is so accurate to the Seiko that things like the bezel and the bracelet are interchangeable 

In fact it’s so accurate that just like the MM300 you can only get at the movement via the crystal side (one piece case)

Unfortunately unlike the original which has a movement designed to be released from a top loading case, the Sharky uses a 2824 clone, so once the crystal is out, you then need to pull the hands/dial, and get to the keyless works to get the crown/stem released so that the movement can come out....

....genius


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

There's a YT vid, I think Hodinkee, with an interview of a guy who ran/runs Hublot. He was involved with AP back in the 70s, and apparently the talk of the WIS world in '76 was how Philippe Patek was totallly ripping off the RO design with the introduction of their new Nautilus. The nerve of them!


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## tweaked2 (Nov 23, 2018)

Would this include the bracelet they offer separately on their website?



mrmorfo said:


> That's one of the things they have changed in the new bracelet. They only have three fixed links on each side (like 6-digit sub bracelets) instead of 4 (like 5-digit sub bracelets). I asked John long ago and said it was going to be implemented as they had many people with small wrists asking about it. Later on he confirmed it's done and all new bracelets are like that.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

hwa said:


> Because you've ignored my central point from Day One. Whatever, dude, ignorance is bliss. I don't let line-drawing difficulties impede my efforts; i make a living off it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You always do this, you make up an unfounded point that makes no sense and when people call you out on it, you claim people are misrepresenting your point and talk about how you're a lawyer so it's okay. Which is ironic cause I'd imagine lawyers would be able to make compelling arguments to explain their side. Or maybe not?

Just admit you're biased who makes false claims cause you own a Rolex, and are secretly upset that a company made a modern ceramic sub-like watch better than Rolex did for a tenth of the price. Make peace with it, you'll be alright.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

This is an amazing looking watch I have to admit









Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I've always been a no date fan but for some reason the cyclops is really calling out to me...


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

The IPG inlay of the engraved index markers do look a bit darker than the lume on the indices. Is that normal?


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

btcity380 said:


> View attachment 14500003
> 
> 
> The IPG inlay of the engraved index markers do look a bit darker than the lume on the indices. Is that normal?


This has been discussed, scroll up a few posts.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

^^^ I believe they're calling it platinum > the engravings / bezel


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

A nice little fair review of the OR

https://watchclicker.com/2019/09/23/ginault-ocean-rover/


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Today I preorder ceramic OR2 with cyclops and selitta..


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> Today I preorder ceramic OR2 with cyclops and selitta..


Just curious, did you still receive the initial introductory pricing?


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Riddim Driven said:


> ^^^ I believe they're calling it platinum > the engravings / bezel


"Oh no! The bezel markers look grey! Too late into production to change... what to do... I know! Let's call it 'platinum'! Yeah!"


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

mconlonx said:


> "Oh no! The bezel markers look grey! Too late into production to change... what to do... I know! Let's call it 'platinum'! Yeah!"


It is _actually _coated in platinum, as in... the actual element. Just like the 6 digit Rolex bezel numerals are. It's the exact hue as the Rolex Sub's engraved numerals.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

adzman808 said:


> A nice little fair review of the OR
> 
> https://watchclicker.com/2019/09/23/ginault-ocean-rover/





> Each marker is filled with Ginault's gold-sand lume which will glow an icy blue in the dark.


Does this differ model to model due to manufacturing change or custom request? I have the same model as reviewed, and my sand lume definitely glows green.

EDIT: Scrolled down more and saw his lume shot. It's also green in that picture. Seems like a typo.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Citizen V said:


> Does this differ model to model due to manufacturing change or custom request? I have the same model as reviewed, and my sand lume definitely glows green.
> 
> EDIT: Scrolled down more and saw his lume shot. It's also green in that picture. Seems like a typo.


Yeah i guess a typo as my 'gold sand lume' glows like c3 too

I didn't write that article though, maybe reach out to the author?


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> I've always been a no date fan but for some reason the cyclops is really calling out to me...


Same! I wish pics of the no-date would get posted so I can stop doubting my order choice.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

adzman808 said:


> Yeah i guess a typo as my 'gold sand lume' glows like c3 too
> 
> I didn't write that article though, maybe reach out to the author?


Oh, I only quoted your post to reference the review I was quoting. The rest of my comment wasn't directed at you specifically; I was just questioning it out loud since I wasn't 100% sure the sand lume was the same for everyone.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Citizen V said:


> Oh, I only quoted your post to reference the review I was quoting. The rest of my comment wasn't directed at you specifically; I was just questioning it out loud since I wasn't 100% sure the sand lume was the same for everyone.


Give or take slight sample variation, I can't imagine the GSL is much different between each watch, and my *guess* is that it's based on C3


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## whitetigerblood (Sep 23, 2017)

WastedYears said:


> Same! I wish pics of the no-date would get posted so I can stop doubting my order choice.


Seriously!!


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

WastedYears said:


> Same! I wish pics of the no-date would get posted so I can stop doubting my order choice.


If I pre-order one, I'm definitely getting a no-date. I forgot how much I dislike cyclopes until I started wearing my 181875GSLID regularly. There's constantly glare on it, and it's difficult to keep the crystal clean around the cyclops.

Now I just have to decide whether I want to give up the blue bezel / sand lume combination for standard black bezel / white lume. I'm starting to feel like the 181875GSLID's colors don't work that well together due to the red seconds hand.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Citizen V said:


> If I pre-order one, I'm definitely getting a no-date. I forgot how much I dislike cyclopes until I started wearing my 181875GSLID regularly. There's constantly glare on it, and it's difficult to keep the crystal clean around the cyclops.
> 
> Now I just have to decide whether I want to give up the blue bezel / sand lume combination for standard black bezel / white lume. I'm starting to feel like the 181875GSLID's colors don't work that well together due to the red seconds hand.


Would the same glare issue happen on the V2 now they are AR coated?


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

btcity380 said:


> Would the same glare issue happen on the V2 now they are AR coated?


The glare issue is resolved with the new AR crystal.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

WatchClicker said:


> Hi there, this is my review and it was a typo. It has since been corrected, thank you for pointing this out!


Nice review mate.

will you be getting the OR 2?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

cwfmon said:


> The glare issue is resolved with the new AR crystal.


From the pictures posted here, the AR coating on the cyclops looks pretty darn nice, no ugly blue/brown color reflection


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## G4_Chrono (Jan 22, 2014)

AR on the crystal of the OR2 is a good upgrade. Here is my OR1 with 2x AR flat sapphire:









(and maxi Mercedes hands / drilled lugs)


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

G4_Chrono said:


> AR on the crystal of the OR2 is a good upgrade. Here is my OR1 with 2x AR flat sapphire:
> 
> View attachment 14521853
> 
> ...


Sure its been said before...but do wish the OR2 had drilled lugs...I'm not a bracelet guy and would love to be able to get it on/off without the major drama or buying the $100 giant tweezer type Rolex spring bar tool....


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> Sure its been said before...but do wish the OR2 had drilled lugs...I'm not a bracelet guy and would love to be able to get it on/off without the major drama or buying the $100 giant tweezer type Rolex spring bar tool....


I'm sure a competent watchsmith can drill lugs on a case, although I would not feel comfortable sending mine to someone unless I have really amazing reviews on that specific task...


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

I didn’t see a post about this so I ask the question: where did you get the lugs drilled and are you pleased with the results? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

hkhan.001 said:


> I didn't see a post about this so I ask the question: where did you get the lugs drilled and are you pleased with the results?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You will either need to do it by hand, or a specialized tool to drill. Or maybe checkout your local machine shops to see if their machines can be set up for the task. It doesn't seem likely as you might need specialized clamps. Once finished, the polished surface will need some deburring and re-polishing. May be a costly little mod.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

I am still amazed that people are buying these from Tsung Chi, aka Thomas Caddell as they are just re-dialled TC Submariners. A lot of money for a Chinese counterfeit Rolex. They themselves very good copies but to be selling them now as mainline watches is quite wrong. When it had Rolex stamped on it everyone was shouting disgrace but now, with a name change, people are actually handing over more than they cost for the same product!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

nobbylon said:


> I am still amazed that people are buying these from Tsung Chi, aka Thomas Caddell as they are just re-dialled TC Submariners. A lot of money for a Chinese counterfeit Rolex. They themselves very good copies but to be selling them now as mainline watches is quite wrong. When it had Rolex stamped on it everyone was shouting disgrace but now, with a name change, people are actually handing over more than they cost for the same product!


Thank you for your insight but this has been beat to death, in this thread and in others. Most of the posts with your verbiage have been removed by the mods because this is the classic submariners lovers thread, not the bash Ginault thread.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

drttown said:


> Thank you for your insight but this has been beat to death, in this thread and in others. Most of the posts with your verbiage have been removed by the mods because this is the classic submariners lovers thread, not the bash Ginault thread.


truly amazing. A TC was 600-800 and these are what 1500? seems like a great deal for a rebadged fake but it's your money so 'as you were'. Maybe some who are not as 'well informed' or dismissive of the reality would find it informative and do a little more homework before finding out later they'd been de trousered.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

And for your info I am a big fan of classic Submariners, that’s why I clicked the thread. Not a fan of others getting ripped though.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

nobbylon said:


> https://lexic.co/deepdweller/exposing-ginaults-illegal-past-tsung-chi-and-thomas-caddell


Nothing new as almost every member following this thread already knows about that expose. Nice try though.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Ffs, again?

Fake watches carry branding they’ve no right too display and have no warranty.

Ginault offer neither of those things.

Things cost what they cost, buyers decide if they represent VFM and vote with their wallets... Ginault seem to be surviving. 

It cracks me up that people discover ‘that’ article then go running to the forums like they’ve personally achieved something clever

And riddle me this... 

Counterfeit products are generally accepted to easily identifiable by those in the know, yet apparently change the name on the dial away from the illegally used one and suddenly it’s indistinguishable from the real thing!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

And another thing...

I think we can honestly say that no one, and I mean NO ONE has done more to introduce the WIS community to the dark side; its forums and members and “retail” outlets than deepdweller

No one.

I for one applaud that. 

Sarcastically.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

adzman808 said:


> Ffs, again?
> 
> Fake watches carry branding they've no right too display and have no warranty.
> 
> ...


I first had notice of TC back in 2014. It cracks me up that sometimes people make assumptions based on what they think they know about others and it also cracks me up that you don't save up your hard earned and buy a real classic Submariner. I've been in to real Submariners for close to 40 years, I also had a couple of TC's for my boy to play with so instead of getting in to a tizzy fit when someone brings up the truth about what you're spending your money on just toddle along and enjoy your tc/ginault. I couldn't be bothered reading 500 odd pages of drivel before posting what I did so excuse me for telling you what you already know. Like I said, saw the thread title and didn't realise some of you would be so defensive. Guess the truth doesn't sit well sometimes.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

The fundamental difference between counterfeits and homages is that counterfeits are depending on reputation of the brand they are counterfeiting, and thus they spend much less effort on making the product an actual good watch since their own reputation is not at stake. On the other hand, an homage watch is all about being as good a watch as possible (similar to the homage target) at a given price point. Those homages might not have platinum inlayed on the bezel or white gold indices, but they care about being a well made watch in their own right, accurate in their own right, and worthy of a reputation of their own. With their own name on the dial, they live and die on the strength of their performance. Merely LOOKING like a particular watch is not enough.

Therefore it’s a ridiculous assertion that a counterfeit Rolex would make a good homage because those counterfeits aren’t good enough WATCHES to compete against Invicta, much less Rolex or Steinhart or Ginault or Phoibos. All you would end up with is a watch that would be outperformed by Parnis divers. Sure they MIGHT look a little nicer, until you touched them or tried to use them, but as soon as you did, you’d likely discover your error.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Axinnon said:


> I've always been a no date fan but for some reason the cyclops is really calling out to me...


Same here. I actually pre-ordered the no date ORII but have sent an email to them about switching to the cyclops.


----------



## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Citizen V said:


> If I pre-order one, I'm definitely getting a no-date. I forgot how much I dislike cyclopes until I started wearing my 181875GSLID regularly. There's constantly glare on it, and it's difficult to keep the crystal clean around the cyclops.
> 
> Now I just have to decide whether I want to give up the blue bezel / sand lume combination for standard black bezel / white lume. I'm starting to feel like the 181875GSLID's colors don't work that well together due to the red seconds hand.


Um...dibs.


----------



## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

carbon_dragon said:


> The fundamental difference between counterfeits and homages is that counterfeits are depending on reputation of the brand they are counterfeiting, and thus they spend much less effort on making the product an actual good watch since their own reputation is not at stake. On the other hand, an homage watch is all about being as good a watch as possible (similar to the homage target) at a given price point. Those homages might not have platinum inlayed on the bezel or white gold indices, but they care about being a well made watch in their own right, accurate in their own right, and worthy of a reputation of their own. With their own name on the dial, they live and die on the strength of their performance. Merely LOOKING like a particular watch is not enough.
> 
> Therefore it's a ridiculous assertion that a counterfeit Rolex would make a good homage because those counterfeits aren't good enough WATCHES to compete against Invicta, much less Rolex or Steinhart or Ginault or Phoibos. All you would end up with is a watch that would be outperformed by Parnis divers. Sure they MIGHT look a little nicer, until you touched them or tried to use them, but as soon as you did, you'd likely discover your error.


Ok now I know you have no clue what a TC Sub was. Tc's mission was to produce THE best replica 16610 out there and to all intent and purpose he succeeded. Saying that his watches were not good enough and now because they are re-dialled is saying that a Ginault is not a good watch. The point of this is as stated, the watch called a Ginault is the very same counterfeit TC Submariner, same case, same movement, updated bracelet and a redial. It cost roughly $600-$800 and the homage crowd hated them. Fast forward a couple of years, stick a new name on the dial and some flaky marketing about history and now $1500. If guys want to pay it and believe then fine but let's be honest about what it is!


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

nobbylon said:


> Ok now I know you have no clue what a TC Sub was. Tc's mission was to produce THE best replica 16610 out there and to all intent and purpose he succeeded. Saying that his watches were not good enough and now because they are re-dialled is saying that a Ginault is not a good watch. The point of this is as stated, the watch called a Ginault is the very same counterfeit TC Submariner, same case, same movement, updated bracelet and a redial. It cost roughly $600-$800 and the homage crowd hated them. Fast forward a couple of years, stick a new name on the dial and some flaky marketing about history and now $1500. If guys want to pay it and believe then fine but let's be honest about what it is!


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

I wonder if Snoop Dog fans/haters get into the same heated discussions.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

heads and sand boys, heads and sand, i’ll leave you now


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

nobbylon said:


> heads and sand boys, heads and sand, i'll leave you now


Speaking of sand.....gold sand lume. Mmmmmmm


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nobbylon said:


> it also cracks me up that you don't save up your hard earned and buy a real classic Submariner.
> 
> when someone brings up the truth about what you're spending your money


The truth?

The truth about about going into a brand x owners thread, acting like a troll and being treated like a troll?

Or the truth about what I spend my money on?

You can't handle the truth


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

That’s a current Sub as you well know and a pretender. Get back to me when you’ve got a 5 digit.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

nobbylon said:


> That's a current Sub as you well know and a pretender. Get back to me when you've got a 5 digit.


Something like this?


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

I seriously would like to apologise to anyone I’ve offended who has bought a rebadged counterfeit watch. It was not my intention to offend, it was to give people the chance to make informed decision re purchase. Those of you having a tizzy are obviously sensitive about this info and whether you bought before or after knowing is of no concern to me. You will note that at no point have I said it’s a bad watch and had it been released like that from day one of inception there would now be no discussion but the facts are the facts.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Something like this?


If it's genuine yes but as you wear a ginault I'm sceptical


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

Anyway chaps, been fun and entertaining but I’ll leave it there.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nobbylon said:


> It was not my intention to offend, .


Now, now don't be silly old sport. You have no intention but too offend, it's your sole reason for participating in this thread



nobbylon said:


> If it's genuine yes but as you wear a ginault I'm sceptical


As you can't spot a counterfeit watch, it's no surprise you can't spot a real one too



nobbylon said:


> heads and sand boys, heads and sand, i'll leave you now


I like a person that sticks to their word.... oh no wait... you're still here


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

nobbylon said:


> Ok now I know you have no clue what a TC Sub was. Tc's mission was to produce THE best replica 16610 out there and to all intent and purpose he succeeded. Saying that his watches were not good enough and now because they are re-dialled is saying that a Ginault is not a good watch. The point of this is as stated, the watch called a Ginault is the very same counterfeit TC Submariner, same case, same movement, updated bracelet and a redial. It cost roughly $600-$800 and the homage crowd hated them. Fast forward a couple of years, stick a new name on the dial and some flaky marketing about history and now $1500. If guys want to pay it and believe then fine but let's be honest about what it is!


Based on my research done this past two weeks, a TC Sub now is sold for over $1.2K if you can even score one.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

nobbylon said:


> I also had a couple of TC's for my boy to play with


So you admit to being a knowing buyer of counterfeit goods.



nobbylon said:


> it also cracks me up that you don't save up your hard earned and buy a real classic Submariner


I have enough money in the bank to go out right now and write a check for literally dozens of brand-new Submariners (even at the well-above MSRP that ADs are currently demanding). But the Submariner is vastly overpriced, including the used ones. And if I buy new, some of my money would go to Roger Federer and Tiger Woods and the dozens of other shills Rolex pays to go on teevee and say nice things about them. Call me nuts, but I think those dudes have enough money already; they're not getting any of mine. You want to give them some of yours (if you have any leftover after buying the counterfeits), that's up to you.

Me? I'm going to continue to buy high-value, non-counterfeit watches like the Ginault Ocean Rover.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

nobbylon said:


> Anyway chaps, been fun and entertaining but I'll leave it there.


Trolling is always fun for the troll, no so much for everyone else.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

adzman808 said:


> I like a person that sticks to their word.... oh no wait... you're still here


If you stop feeding the troll he'll get bored and go away.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Why isn’t the OR2 on Ginault’s website yet? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

hkhan.001 said:


> Why isn't the OR2 on Ginault's website yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My guess is it is one of two things:

1) Initially they were limiting the run to former customers, members of their Facebook group, and others who have reached out to them before. I think that since they were pretty close to selling out their production run with that model they probably just plan to stick to that for now.

2) They have only a few pictures of the actual watch, and only of the Smurf date version. They probably don't want their site to just contain renders, and are waiting until they have more pictures

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

hkhan.001 said:


> Why isn't the OR2 on Ginault's website yet?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's not/will not be available on their website, as stated by Ginault themselves.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

nobbylon said:


> the facts are the facts.


Clearly an exponent of 'alternative facts'.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm sure a competent watchsmith can drill lugs on a case, although I would not feel comfortable sending mine to someone unless I have really amazing reviews on that specific task...


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Trolling is always fun for the troll, no so much for everyone else.


Exactly this. I've just reported & blocked. Fake Rolex buyer smearing other fellow watch aficionados? No, please.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> Exactly this. I've just reported & blocked. Fake Rolex buyer smearing other fellow watch aficionados? No, please.


Fake Rolex buyer, don't make me laugh. If you start insulting people you only show what kind of person you are and may just end up looking foolish. Keep drinking. Oh and if trolling means telling the truth then fine I'll head on back to the Rolex section. Report me for stating facts? You're as bad as the superior sounding replica buyers on a different forum, grow up.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

nobbylon said:


> Oh and if trolling means telling the truth then fine I'll head on back to the Rolex section.


Please do.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nobbylon said:


> then fine I'll head on back to the Rolex section.


Don't forget to tell them that all 6 digit subs are just "pretenders" I'm sure it'll be like a love-in for you other there...


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

If the trolling continues I will begin handing out red cards. This is my final warning.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

I saw the whole thing how it unfolded over at Ginault Watch Club FB page. He originally ordered one of these Ginault OR2 and shared with the group. After reading an incident that some guy broke the indices off the dial (dropped watch on hard surface), he decided to cancel his order and told everyone he is getting a BB58. His post was followed by mockery, telling him to test drop his new BB58 to see if the indices would stay on and report back, and the other comments dog piled on his post. 

I can see how it is unreasonable expecting nothing to happen to a mechanical watch and a dial with applied indices after dropping it on a hard surface. To be fair if this can happen to Rolex, it can happen to any other brands but such is his decision so be it. 

Instead of helping him to understand and gain a more reasonable expectation for a watch, his uneducated expectation was met with mockery and cruelness. He then turned his anger into hatred and came on here to berate Ginault and troll the thread. 

I am sure he knew about the brand's controversy before his purchase and went in knowingly. So to be acting holier than thou here all the sudden is a bit........funny, for the lack of a better word. I am not taking sides, but I just think it is kind of sad to see how this whole thing played out. Perhaps a bit of civility and patience from more learned members could have set this whole situation onto a different path.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

How do the groups (1 & 2) work for the OR2 order fulfillment? Is it just based on order date?


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## Squirrel Murphy (Apr 26, 2018)

nobbylon said:


> I am still amazed that people are buying these from Tsung Chi, aka Thomas Caddell as they are just re-dialled TC Submariners. A lot of money for a Chinese counterfeit Rolex. They themselves very good copies but to be selling them now as mainline watches is quite wrong. When it had Rolex stamped on it everyone was shouting disgrace but now, with a name change, people are actually handing over more than they cost for the same product!


Are you new here?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

TheRealTC said:


> I saw the whole thing how it unfolded over at Ginault Watch Club FB page. He originally ordered one of these Ginault OR2 and shared with the group. After reading an incident that some guy broke the indices off the dial (dropped watch on hard surface), he decided to cancel his order and told everyone he is getting a BB58. His post was followed by mockery, telling him to test drop his new BB58 to see if the indices would stay on and report back, and the other comments dog piled on his post.
> 
> I can see how it is unreasonable expecting nothing to happen to a mechanical watch and a dial with applied indices after dropping it on a hard surface. To be fair if this can happen to Rolex, it can happen to any other brands but such is his decision so be it.
> 
> ...


This one came on song like a flaming train wreck.

All the homage threads attract a degree of heat, but this guy came in stating that he couldn't be bothered to read any of the thread, sharing that deepdweller article like it was his own personal nobel prize winning research that no one had seen before and making personal accusations about the buying power and honour of ginault owners

I was told of his backstory on the fb group a couple of days ago...

...like you kinda say..

There's nothing more pious than a reformed xxxxx and as Shakespeare didn't say.. this lady doth protest too much

We all get it, plenty of reasons to hate ginault/homages. And most that do simply stay away from the thread.

But those that have banged and banged the hate drum over and over on this thread, have by and large all turned out to suffer from varying degrees of hypocrisy

It's hard to have sympathy.

Edit:

The fact he got his feathers ruffled on facebook and came here to take a dump, isn't particularly endearing.

The world is full of 'what ifs' but what if he'd arrived here expressing concern about the quality of the ginault product in regards to impact resistance, he might have received a measured response

Instead it's just another angry voice, screaming fake and (yet again) it turns out that he's owned counterfeit watches and was considering getting a ginault with enough serious intent to put down a deposit

A sad fact of life is that it's very hard to be treated with respect when you're caught out with hypocrisy

Also of course to earn respect you must give it and behaviour exhibited often dictates a mirrored response.

When you own a homage watch, it goes without saying that you're going to get some degree of pious response about it. It's the price of ownership. But when that response turns into personal attacks and insults it's not cool.

If the poster in question is to be believed... the only watch in the whole world worth a damn is a 5 digit sub, which he already owns, so maybe he should stick to the section of the community that validates his purchasing decision.

Anyway... I do ramble..

TLR

When someone gets their chain yanked on facebook, it's not the job of WUS to mop up that hatred like vomit and hold their hand and stroke their hair until they're feeling better.


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

adzman808 said:


> This one came on song like a flaming train wreck.
> 
> All the homage threads attract a degree of heat, but this guy came in stating that he couldn't be bothered to read any of the thread, sharing that deepdweller article like it was his own personal nobel prize winning research that no one had seen before and making personal accusations about the buying power and honour of ginault owners
> 
> ...


Ok could you just listen for one second as there's a few errors to correct before you attack me.
I don't use facebook apart from maybe once a year to contact an old friend and have NEVER talked on there about TC or Ginault watches. I have bought 2 TC's in the past, one of which the PLASTIC oblong baton at 6 o'clock fell off. It was never dropped and that was a V6 as I recall. I had email dealings with TC who basically said it was my problem. Counterfeit watch = my problem and I get that. I fixed it myself and sold it. The V2 I bought for my boy was faultless and ran like a champ (gen Swiss Eta 2824-2) I sold that earlier this year as I bought him a gen Sub date as he'd had that TC for 5 years.
I have never considered, ordered or cancelled any Ginault watch or indeed a Tudor watch as stated above. 
I have not attacked verbally anyone here and had I read the whole 570 odd pages would not have expressed my views on these watches as it has obviously been done before.
No I'm not new here and have been a watch enthusiast for many years, 45 to be exact and have a varied rotation of watches that I wear. Yes I like 5 digit Rolex but I also like 6 digit. Yes I also have other brands! I do not need my purchases validating by anyone, I buy what I like to wear. 
I am sorry that some of you feel so offended, I honestly am but before you start slamming me at least get your facts correct as I did mine.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

nobbylon said:


> Ok could you just listen for one second as there's a few errors to correct before you attack me.
> I don't use facebook apart from maybe once a year to contact an old friend and have NEVER talked on there about TC or Ginault watches. I have bought 2 TC's in the past, one of which the PLASTIC oblong baton at 6 o'clock fell off. It was never dropped and that was a V6 as I recall. I had email dealings with TC who basically said it was my problem. Counterfeit watch = my problem and I get that. I fixed it myself and sold it. The V2 I bought for my boy was faultless and ran like a champ (gen Swiss Eta 2824-2) I sold that earlier this year as I bought him a gen Sub date as he'd had that TC for 5 years.
> I have never considered, ordered or cancelled any Ginault watch or indeed a Tudor watch as stated above.
> I have not attacked verbally anyone here and had I read the whole 570 odd pages would not have expressed my views on these watches as it has obviously been done before.
> ...


Welcome to the thread, we look forward to your future input! Just as you state: "I buy what I like to wear", " I do not need my purchases validating by anyone"; the same goes true for most of the members here on this thread. They do not need any validation and have purchased the Gianault, or are in on the pre-order, even though most know of the history behind the watch brand and owner. That history does not detract from the build quality and the attention to details that have gone into this watch, not to mention the post-sale customer care if you should have a problem or question. You came into this thread like a gang buster but have accepted that and have made amends. Welcome back!


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## nobbylon (Oct 17, 2012)

drttown said:


> Welcome to the thread, we look forward to your future input! Just as you state: "I buy what I like to wear", " I do not need my purchases validating by anyone"; the same goes true for most of the members here on this thread. They do not need any validation and have purchased the Gianault, or are in on the pre-order, even though most know of the history behind the watch brand and owner. That history does not detract from the build quality and the attention to details that have gone into this watch, not to mention the post-sale customer care if you should have a problem or question. You came into this thread like a gang buster but have accepted that and have made amends. Welcome back!


Thank you......


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Just as an aside, I dropped my OR accidentally about 2 months ago. If fell out of my gym bag (zipper carelessly left open - 100% my fault) face down onto a tile floor. An indice came off my dial as well. I emailed Ginault with an explanation of what occurred and took full responsibility for the issue. It would be unreasonable for anyone to expect an applied indice to remain fixed on the dial when dropped like that (this is exactly why "tool watches" / Mil Subs have printed dials).

Ginault repaired (replaced?) my dial at no cost, with effortless communication, and in a timely fashion even though they were likely focused on releasing the OR 2. The watch was returned to me in perfect condition, with no new scratches marks. I can't even tell the case back was removed. They obviously have talented people on staff. 

I'm an admitted Seiko-holic, but have also owned many micros over the years (Steinhart, OWC, CREPAS / Tactico, etc.). Ginault ranks in the top for customer service in my experience.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nobbylon said:


> Ok could you just listen for one second as there's a few errors to correct before you attack me.


We did listen



nobbylon said:


> I have bought 2 TC's in the past,


I know it's hard... like some times the most vehemently anti-tobacco people are ex-smokers, but people need to respect other people's *legal *life choices, and any watch that's not sporting branding that claims it to have been manufactured by a company that it wasn't, isn't a fake.

Think of it like how the big watch part outlet stores can sell you a crown tube, or bezel insert that perfectly fits a Rolex, but they're not breaking the law, because they neither claim it to be by Rolex nor brand it as Rolex.

Sure you, a another might be uncomfortable with this, but _your _discomfort doesn't suddenly make it a fake watch



nobbylon said:


> I have never considered, ordered or cancelled any Ginault watch or indeed a Tudor watch as stated above.


Interesting. We collectively stand corrected.

Out of curiosity - how did you even hear about Ginault then?



nobbylon said:


> I have not attacked verbally anyone here and had I read the whole 570 odd pages would not have expressed my views on these watches as it has obviously been done before.


Well now, telling people



nobbylon said:


> it also cracks me up that you don't save up your hard earned and buy a real classic Submariner


and



nobbylon said:


> heads and sand boys, heads and sand


(and on a side note, FYI - it's generally not considered cool to assume everyone is a boy these days)

Is kinda a teeny tiny bit of a verbal attack isn't it? Several members of this thread own many high value watches... many WIS community members value watches at all price points. To suggest that the only reason to buy a homage is because items further up the food chain are out of reach is... well let's let's just say photographically proven to be incorrect

As for not reading the whole thread... well yeah it's a bit of a labour of love to do that if you've just arrived here... But equally well researched opinions generally fly high, straight and true - knee jerk ones not so much...



nobbylon said:


> No I'm not new here and have been a watch enthusiast for many years, 45 to be exact and have a varied rotation of watches that I wear. Yes I like 5 digit Rolex but I also like 6 digit. Yes I also have other brands! *I do not need my purchases validating by anyone, I buy what I like to wear. *


As already noted, Ginault owners feel the same way...

Oh and your previous comment on 6 digit Subs was



nobbylon said:


> That's a current Sub as you well know and a pretender. Get back to me when you've got a 5 digit.


Which I think leads us on too



nobbylon said:


> I am sorry that some of you feel so offended, I honestly am but before you start slamming me at least get your *facts correct as I did mine*.


Like I said behaviour breeds behaviour, and "it cracks me up that you'd all buy this watch" isn't a positive response



nobbylon said:


> seems like a great deal for a rebadged fake but it's your money so 'as you were'. Maybe some who are not as 'well informed' or dismissive of the reality would find it informative and do a little more homework before finding out later they'd been de trousered


How can you say things like that (that anyone buying a Ginualt has been de-trousered) and expect to get a positive response in return?

Don't misconstrue me, your last post will no doubt continue to find favour and flavour on the Ginault thread's collective palate, but perhaps it's not such a mystery why some of us reacted negatively to the negativity you presented us with.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nobbylon said:


> I have bought 2 TC's in the past, one of which the PLASTIC oblong baton at 6 o'clock fell off. It was never dropped and that was a V6 as I recall. I had email dealings with TC who basically said it was my problem. *Counterfeit watch = my problem* and I get that.





Ryeguy said:


> Just as an aside, I dropped my OR accidentally about 2 months ago. An indice came off my dial as well. I emailed Ginault with an explanation of what occurred and took full responsibility for the issue. It would be unreasonable for anyone to expect an applied indice to remain fixed on the dial when dropped like that (this is exactly why "tool watches" / Mil Subs have printed dials).
> 
> *Ginault repaired (replaced?) my dial at no cost, with effortless communication, and in a timely fashion* even though they were likely focused on releasing the OR 2. The watch was returned to me in perfect condition, with no new scratches marks. I can't even tell the case back was removed. They obviously have talented people on staff.
> 
> Ginault ranks in the top for customer service in my experience.


and that, for those that are curious, is why a counterfeit watch costs less than a microbrand one


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Off topic can i turn off this ........ “give kin” what is this stupid crap ? It pops up in my phone all the time. Is recent who’s dumb idea was it ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

nobbylon said:


> I am still amazed that people are buying these from Tsung Chi, aka Thomas Caddell as they are just re-dialled TC Submariners. A lot of money for a Chinese counterfeit Rolex. They themselves very good copies but to be selling them now as mainline watches is quite wrong. When it had Rolex stamped on it everyone was shouting disgrace but now, with a name change, people are actually handing over more than they cost for the same product!


To be fair, I compared a few TC versions to the Ocean Rover, they may appear to be the same to most people, but to experts the Ocean Rover's production quality and techniques used, a few levels above what TC output. Many on the rep forums even call the OR parts V8 or V9 which clearly shows there are major improvements made. Anyways, I am not here arguing whether or not this came from the same guy but I am telling you a fact. The Ocean Rover's parts, they are pretty amazing, and are not the same level as the few TC Subs I examined. The details and level of production maturity on this is way more advanced. If nothing else, this guy is talented and produces darn nice timepieces.



nobbylon said:


> Ok could you just listen for one second as there's a few errors to correct before you attack me.
> I don't use facebook apart from maybe once a year to contact an old friend and have NEVER talked on there about TC or Ginault watches. I have bought 2 TC's in the past, one of which the PLASTIC oblong baton at 6 o'clock fell off. It was never dropped and that was a V6 as I recall. I had email dealings with TC who basically said it was my problem. Counterfeit watch = my problem and I get that. I fixed it myself and sold it. The V2 I bought for my boy was faultless and ran like a champ (gen Swiss Eta 2824-2) I sold that earlier this year as I bought him a gen Sub date as he'd had that TC for 5 years.
> I have never considered, ordered or cancelled any Ginault watch or indeed a Tudor watch as stated above.
> I have not attacked verbally anyone here and had I read the whole 570 odd pages would not have expressed my views on these watches as it has obviously been done before.
> ...


Exactly, as you stated, and your apology is accepted. Welcome to the thread W.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Been staring at this OR2 picture over and over on my computer screen. The details of this watch is truly something else. And a special ceramic insert made to fit a 5 digit Sub. what an idea huh


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

marinemaster said:


> Off topic can i turn off this ........ "give kin" what is this stupid crap ? It pops up in my phone all the time. Is recent who's dumb idea was it ?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, at least in the paid version of Tapatalk. "Settings, Kin Rewards" Slide the toggle off IIRC.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

kgrier said:


> Yes, at least in the paid version of Tapatalk. "Settings, Kin Rewards" Slide the toggle off IIRC.


Thank you! That's been bugging me too, I was able to shut it off in the free version of Tapatalk the same way.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> Thank you! That's been bugging me too, I was able to shut it off in the free version of Tapatalk the same way.


Just done the same it's been driving me mad, never thought to check the settings.

Discovered night mode too when I was rummaging. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Just done the same it's been driving me mad, never thought to check the settings.
> 
> Discovered night mode too when I was rummaging.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Oh yeah...  about the kin setting <finally!>. I dig night mode - my app never leaves it.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

I don't live far from Aria Printing on Mission Blvd. I'm going to go do some investigating.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I sold my blue one to a member here, and just bought it back from him. It is in mint condition and I never should have let it go!


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

drttown said:


> I sold my blue one to a member here, and just bought it back from him. It is in mint condition and I never should have let it go!
> 
> View attachment 14536677


Looks good! I really like the gilt markings on the blue bezel. I really wish they would make a black and gilt bezel as well

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

badgerracer said:


> drttown said:
> 
> 
> > I sold my blue one to a member here, and just bought it back from him. It is in mint condition and I never should have let it go!
> ...


They do, check it out! https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-185066/

Scroll down and you'll see they have green, red and black inserts. All of them with gold numerals. You can probably email John and buy a spare insert (I bought a black one with vintage lume pearl that way).


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

Occurred to me I don't think I posted my OR here since I picked her up. And if I have, what the hey, we all like one more watch pic, yes?









Sent Wherever I Can Get It Done From ...


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> They do, check it out! https://ginault.com/ocean-rover-185066/
> 
> Scroll down and you'll see they have green, red and black inserts. All of them with gold numerals. You can probably email John and buy a spare insert (I bought a black one with vintage lume pearl that way).


I was planning on going for the ceramic on my ORII, but this is really tempting. Based off how long it took me to decide between a date and no date, I imagine I'll get back to you with my decision in about 2 months haha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I was planning on going for the ceramic on my ORII, but this is really tempting. Based off how long it took me to decide between a date and no date, I imagine I'll get back to you with my decision in about 2 months haha
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Saw a GS lume with black&gold insert mounted from their IG page. Looks pretty darn nice!


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

btcity380 said:


> badgerracer said:
> 
> 
> > I was planning on going for the ceramic on my ORII, but this is really tempting. Based off how long it took me to decide between a date and no date, I imagine I'll get back to you with my decision in about 2 months haha
> ...


This one?

__
http://instagr.am/p/Bx3ldDhHuUQ/

Looks amazing indeed!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Did anyone else get an infomail yesterday from Ginault? Presale discount still available but I did notice this new message

"* as of 9/20/2019 we are announcing an indefinite delay on the blue variants as we are working with our insert supplier trying to get the blue tone exactly the way we want. "


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Wrong thread!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Porsche993 said:


> Did anyone else get an infomail yesterday from Ginault? Presale discount still available but I did notice this new message
> 
> "* as of 9/20/2019 we are announcing an indefinite delay on the blue variants as we are working with our insert supplier trying to get the blue tone exactly the way we want. "


Yes, I received that email a few weeks ago. Based upon that I changed my order to a black bezel and he said they would work something out with me when, and if, the blue variant becomes available.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

drttown said:


> Yes, I received that email a few weeks ago. Based upon that I changed my order to a black bezel and he said they would work something out with me when, and if, the blue variant becomes available.


Hopefully the blue will come through. That's the color I want to order.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

So I posted this in the Facebook group too, and had a bit of discussion above, but figured I'd expand on my dilemma a bit more. I know I want the Gold Sand Lume for my ORII Date+cyclops, but I'm now debating the insert.

Option #1: ceramic
I really like the deep etching of the ceramic, I like that it is more durable, and I'm a fan of the fully indexed look.

Option #2 aluminum with gold indexes
I think aluminum fits the more vintage vibe of the GSL, and I think gold indexes really tie in with the GSL in a cool way. I think it makes for a more cohesive package. There were several gold indexed bezel options made for the 185066 that it looks like have been fitted to the regular OR in the past upon request. So here are the ones I'm looking at

Option 2a aluminum black & gold
The most classic of course, and would go with anything. Of course this isn't my only watch, and I'm looking at my collection and where I plan for it to be in a year, and it could use more color

Here is the custom one done on their Instagram 









Option 2b aluminum red and gold
I really like that the red makes the second hand fit in a little better, and I'm always a fan of more color. Plus I could call it the Iron Man. I am worried that it is a bit too strong. I did recently get a red person for my Seagull 1963 and do find I wear it the most of the 3 straps I have for that watch, so I feel like this would see a lot of wrist time.

Couldn't find the red attached to the regular OR, but here is it on the 185066









Option 2c aluminum green and gold
I do love the Rolex Kermit, and think that the green with the black dial makes for a good combo. The only thing that worries me is the red seconds hand with the green (and gold) might clash a bit. If it wasn't for the red seconds hand this would probably be top of the aluminum options. And I'm not confident enough to mod it to a different seconds hand myself, and if I sent it to a modded I would be worried about getting a good match for the GSL

Here is an OR2 that someone posted on the Facebook group 









Not considered: Blue and Gold bezel
I already have a couple of blue watches in my collection. If I am going to make this a bit less versatile with color, I want it to be more unique

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Kind of reminds me of Long Island Watch's customization program. That would be pretty nice as a general thing. There are plenty of watches (like my Citizen Nighthawk) that I'd have loved to change the crystal out on. I like the new colors but I'll be happy with my black ceramic bezel I think.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

carbon_dragon said:


> Kind of reminds me of Long Island Watch's customization program. That would be pretty nice as a general thing. There are plenty of watches (like my Citizen Nighthawk) that I'd have loved to change the crystal out on. I like the new colors but I'll be happy with my black ceramic bezel I think.


To me it reminds me of another brand I plan to buy from in the next year: Stowa. They have their stock models to choose from, but they offer a lot of customization upon request, which they can do because they do a lot of the work themselves, versus other brands that are just designing watches for a completely different factory to produce

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

badgerracer said:


> So I posted this in the Facebook group too, and had a bit of discussion above, but figured I'd expand on my dilemma a bit more. I know I want the Gold Sand Lume for my ORII Date+cyclops, but I'm now debating the insert.
> 
> Option #1: ceramic
> I really like the deep etching of the ceramic, I like that it is more durable, and I'm a fan of the fully indexed look.
> ...


For my 2 pennies...

I think if you want the ceramic then it might pay to get the white coloured lume...

IMHO the red bezel works very well with the GSL and the red secondshand, although it might be a little to "black bay" like, but it does look good

Personally I think the green/gold/red option looks a bit much with the red hand although or course it'll be far less noticeable in real life as watch pictures tend to be larger than life. A replacement secondshand that fits will be easy to find, but getting the lume to match won't be (easier with the [strike]blue smurf[/strike] no I can't bring myself to type that - BGW9 lume option)

I like the 'option 2a' one the best.

Depending on how easy it is to pop the bezel off of an ORii (it's child's play on an ORi) it might be worth buying couple of bezel inserts from Ginault then changing them as your mood takes you!

For me.... the GSL is a pretty special feature of the watch... often fake vintage patina lume lasts like crap, but Ginault's GSL lasts like C3, yet isn't green.

As always... what other watches does one have in the collection might be worth considering, as there's no shortage of white indicied, ceramic bezel insert divers watches in the world.... but that said *personally* whenever I try to diversify the collection I just end up with watches I don't wear very often :-D


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Completely agree, that GSL is just another thing. I tried several lume mixes, even the best bergeon C3 along with decent tint lasts less and it doesn't have the same texture. I know reluming is a challenging technique, so maybe in the future my skills will improve and I'll be able to mimic it. But so far I find it really difficult to get close while keeping a good luminescence.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> I know reluming is a challenging technique, so maybe in the future my skills will improve and I'll be able to mimic it.


Meanwhile folks like me are too scared to even attempt to take the hands off!

If one wanted a silver secondshand, but to keep the matching lume, i wondered if was beyond the wit of man* to get the red paint off the standard hand... fibre brush perhaps? Polishing maybe? Maybe get the red off up until the lollipop, have a red tip like some other divers watches?

(*That would be beyond the wit of this (ie me) man obviously!)


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> If one wanted a silver secondshand, but to keep the matching lume, i wondered if was beyond the wit of man* to get the red paint off the standard hand... fibre brush perhaps? Polishing maybe? Maybe get the red off up until the lollipop, have a red tip like some other divers watches?


It's not a bad idea, but I can't think of a way of removing the red from around the lumed part without damaging the lume...


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## DeCrow (Sep 7, 2016)

Avo said:


> I have enough money in the bank to go out right now and write a check for literally dozens of brand-new Submariners (even at the well-above MSRP that ADs are currently demanding)..


Please refrain from bragging about money, I find it extremely vulgar.

Other than that I agree with your pov

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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DeCrow said:


> Please refrain from bragging about money, I find it extremely vulgar.
> 
> Other than that I agree with your pov
> 
> Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk


I wouldn't exactly call it bragging... it would said as a fact to set up his point.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> DeCrow said:
> 
> 
> > Please refrain from bragging about money, I find it extremely vulgar.
> ...


This ^^

I think he was just putting his comment into context. Essentially saying that even he has more than enough financials to buy not one but many rolexes, he refused to and went for a Ginault instead.


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## DeCrow (Sep 7, 2016)

mrmorfo said:


> This ^^
> 
> I think he was just putting his comment into context. Essentially saying that even he has more than enough financials to buy not one but many rolexes, he refused to and went for a Ginault instead.


I guess I'm just too cynical 

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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Money’s a funny thing... some folks would love to have enough money to buy a $500 watch.

For the vast majority of the world a $1,000,000 is an extreme amount of money - but for a tiny few a million bucks is just a yacht or an apartment they own and only use a few days a year.

When it comes to toys and luxuries, be that Seiko 7s or Rolexes or the latest iPhone or last years entry level android phone, we are all ultimately talking about things we desire but don’t truly need and all these things tell the time (or answer a phone call) and the rest is just window dressing that our personal budget will allow


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

DeCrow said:


> Please refrain from bragging about money, I find it extremely vulgar.


Usually, I do not like to brag about money. I make far less than most doctors or lawyers, but I am extremely frugal (I drive a 1995 Honda Accord that I bought new 24 years ago after negotiating the price down to $150 over invoice) and have invested for decades in index funds that have done well. I am now 64, still working, and plan to keep working as long as I can, physically and mentally. My frugality and work ethic leads to me demand value for money in my purchases.

In my estimation, the vast majority of high(er) end watches like Rolex do not offer value for money, so I have no interest in purchasing them.

I apologize for bragging here. I just get so tired of people who assume that my purchase of a Ginault (which, in my opinion, offers excellent value for money, even at full MSRP) means that I do not have enough funds to buy a Rolex. People who think this have no imagination or creativity in their souls. Usually, I just feel sorry for them. Alas, the post that I responded to struck me as particularly annoying on that particular day, and my response was inappropriate.

tl;dr: Buy a Ginault. Excellent watch and an excellent value.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Does anyone know if the 116610's aftermarket ceramic insert would fit the OR first-gen?


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Although a direct copy from Rolex the intergration, how everything is put together from the picture shows high level of worksmanship









Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Did the discount on the preorder price go away? I got the email just now but I remember seeing a 20%? discount being offered on top of the preorder price..


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Did the discount on the preorder price go away? I got the email just now but I remember seeing a 20%? discount being offered on top of the preorder price..


What prices are you seeing? Here were the early pre-order prices









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

btcity380 said:


> Does anyone know if the 116610's aftermarket ceramic insert would fit the OR first-gen?


I'm afraid it won't, as the bezel dimensions of the 116610 are different than this one which is more similar to a 16610's. Confirmed by John at Ginault too, as I asked him a couple of months ago.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

I messaged Ginault and they told me the discount was still there it just looked different. Ordered me a GSL date with no cyclops on a dome. Anyone know if the date wheel is still black on the OR2 with no cyclops? The one pic I saw was with it and was white with black numbers. I’m pumped!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

DevilDogDoc said:


> I messaged Ginault and they told me the discount was still there it just looked different. Ordered me a GSL date with no cyclops on a dome. Anyone know if the date wheel is still black on the OR2 with no cyclops? The one pic I saw was with it and was white with black numbers. I'm pumped!


You can choose the standard date wheel (off white and black numbers) or reverse date wheel (black wheel and white numbers). I ordered a blue bezel, smurf lume, with reverse date wheel and cyclops .

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

jhinson1 said:


> You can choose the standard date wheel (off white and black numbers) or reverse date wheel (black wheel and white numbers). I ordered a blue bezel, smurf lume, with reverse date wheel and cyclops .
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Perfect so by default I get the off white wheel then. Unless I requested different?


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> I'm afraid it won't, as the bezel dimensions of the 116610 are different than this one which is more similar to a 16610's. Confirmed by John at Ginault too, as I asked him a couple of months ago.


Thanks, so this ceramic insert that they use on the OR2 is going to be a different size than the one used on the 116610? it seems?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Perfect so by default I get the off white wheel then. Unless I requested different?


Correct. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Prototype pictures of the Gold Sand Lume model!

























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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

aye caramba!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Prototype pictures of the Gold Sand Lume model!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow!

Anyone from the first batch of preorders received any dispatch or shipping notifications yet?? The wait is killing me...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> Prototype pictures of the Gold Sand Lume model!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, just stunning!! Are those on Facebook or Instagram?? Now I just have to wait for the blue bezel  

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> Wow, just stunning!! Are those on Facebook or Instagram?? Now I just have to wait for the blue bezel
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


I got them in an email this morning. It was a nice surprise to wake up to!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> Prototype pictures of the Gold Sand Lume model!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that's what I have coming, minus a cyclops!!


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I think the GSL works with the ceramic a lot better than I thought it would. I am still debating about getting the red and gold aluminum bezel, but I am less convinced now that I see these pics. I really need to just buy one of each! Unfortunately finances and my desire for a small and varied collection won’t allow that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## krockwood (May 15, 2016)

I ordered another ORII last week and John gave me the preorder price. I originally preordered the date version when presale started this spring. If you’re still interested in preordering an ORII and have purchased from them in the past they will honor the discount.


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

On a few weeks this thread will be overrun with ceramic OR II. Until then...


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

OR2 with aluminum









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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Can one order these up with sterile dial...?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

No.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

mconlonx said:


> Can one order these up with sterile dial...?


It doesn't hurt to shoot an email to John and ask, but I haven't heard is them making a sterile dial since their BM-1 design, which was like 7 years ago

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Well, I made my decision. I emailed John about changing my ceramic bezel insert to the red and gold aluminum bezel (thus making it a 201875GSLRD). 

Hopefully he is still shipping aluminum orders first, although with ceramic production about to ramp up, I have a feeling he will just keep me in my normal spot in line


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

When they supposed to start shipping, November ? by then it will be about 8 months of waiting.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

marinemaster said:


> When they supposed to start shipping, November ?


Last I heard the plan was still for either late October or early November. With their regulation process, my guess is that they have watches on winders right now, but I could be wrong

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Does anyone have a model like this wanting to sell? Contacted John, but the current lead time is unbearable.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

btcity380 said:


> Does anyone have a model like this wanting to sell? Contacted John, but the current lead time is unbearable.
> 
> View attachment 14566875


It looks like there are 2 on eBay right now. They are going for pretty much the new price though (buy it now is $1,300 vs $1200 from Ginault), so I think you would be better off waiting and getting a brand new one in a few months

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> It looks like there are 2 on eBay right now. They are going for pretty much the new price though (buy it now is $1,300 vs $1200 from Ginault), so I think you would be better off waiting and getting a brand new one in a few months
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good to see those prices!


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> It looks like there are 2 on eBay right now. They are going for pretty much the new price though (buy it now is $1,300 vs $1200 from Ginault), so I think you would be better off waiting and getting a brand new one in a few months
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah, I saw those on ebay and at the price I would rather go for the Ocean Rover 2 pre-order discount deals and get all the upgrades and bear the wait time.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Curious what was the wait time ?


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

marinemaster said:


> Curious what was the wait time ?


Sorry Is this question for me?


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Somebody mentioned they cannot bear the wait time, but don’t recall who did.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

marinemaster said:


> Somebody mentioned they cannot bear the wait time, but don't recall who did.


probably me 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> marinemaster said:
> 
> 
> > Somebody mentioned they cannot bear the wait time, but don't recall who did.
> ...


But you still didn't answer the question lmao


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Whatever your feelings on the brand, you have to admit, they got you yakking about them. Good marketing!


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Like the name “Rolex”?


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

mrmorfo said:


> Love how all these fellas are posting, heavily criticising other members watches and their choices, from their bloody high horses...
> 
> ...and probably wearing trainers, t-shirt, and/or pants made in third world countries by 3rd party contractors with not much care for work rights. Or child rights.
> 
> But yeah, please do keep bashing the watches that some members spent their well earned money on and trying to make them feel bad about it. After all, this is a forum for watch lovers, right?


THIS


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## mcs101 (Jun 22, 2010)

Looks nice!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Anyone got a ceramic yet?


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

I thought the secondary market price for this watch would tank after the whole storm, surprised to see this thread is still alive


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Not my pictures, but taken from the Facebook group with permission. Looks like the ceramic has started to ship! 

























































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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

My opinion...I will prefer Ginault put the original sub ceramic and not sea dweller bezel


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

kostantinos said:


> My opinion...I will prefer Ginault put the original sub ceramic and not sea dweller bezel


That is fair, the fully graduated definitely makes it look more busy. I think Ginault has said what they are going for is "a Mil-Sub if Rolex were to make it today" and the original Mil-Sub had a fully indexed bezel. So it fits the theme they are going for, but I can understand why you would prefer the simpler look of the sub's bezel. Personally I find the fully indexed bezel very useful, so that is my preference.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I honestly don't think the beige/gold lume works well with the white/platinum bezel markers at all, IMO


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Sorry, but that looks too busy 


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I love the shine of the ceramic and think the OR2 is another great execution. But I have to say, wearing my OR1...I really like the aluminum numbers and indices...it makes for a very consistent and clean look. I'm still on the fence on the OR2....If I get an OR2 it will be a no date smurf...because the bezel is so informative...I think it needs a no date dial to compliment it...for the $$ its an extremely well presented piece.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

BTW...regarding the fully indexed bezel...I think one needs to consider that the OR is a homage to the MilSpec...NOT the Sub....the MilSpec was made with a fully indexed bezel...so really the OR1 was less true to the original...the OR2 is a much more accurate representation of the MilSpec and actually with the ceramic bezel I think a very clever interpretation of what the evolution of the MilSpec might have been.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

How is the quality of ceramic bezel please?


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I thought the secondary market price for this watch would tank after the whole storm, surprised to see this thread is still alive


There is no such thing as bad advertising.

I also think there's two types of people. TC is clearly a knockoff artist, at least in his past. Some people will shy away from any association, and even take an even harder stance on what is produced because of it. Other people see this new form of marketing homages as a change that, if anything, should be encouraged, and seeing as it's clearly an homage as it is not labelled Rolex with the crown, have no problem with it. I personally stand with the latter. You can bet your bottom dollar if he was breaking any law, Rolex would be all over it.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I thought the secondary market price for this watch would tank after the whole storm, surprised to see this thread is still alive


Guess you don't check Ebay


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I just checked ebay: 4 listed, all at over $1000 asking price.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> I honestly don't think the beige/gold lume works well with the white/platinum bezel markers at all, IMO


I agree. I originally ordered the non-date ceramic with sand lume but then changed it to the non-date ceramic with smurfs lume. I believe that the white color markers work much better with the ceramic insert. Just look at the pictures of the prototype OR2 (date version). The only other model I would consider is smurf lume, date, but without cyclops to get close to the classic deep sea. And of course, smurfs lume, blue ceramic insert, but I do not think this will ever happen. For this, I would go with date and cyclops  I initially thought that the fully indexed insert would look busy, but I like it (at least in nondate models).

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Just put my OR1 Smurf Cyclops back in the rotation. Stared at it all day. This is just a fantastic piece. Likely won't take it off for a while. Easily makes me forget what else is in the watch box. 

Most people who own a Ginault seem to share a similar experience. Shame this thread has been abused by people who have never owned, yet alone held a Ginault. If you've never flown...don't say you hate flying because of turbulence....you've never been on a plane, yet alone in a little rough air 

I for one am looking forward to what's next for Ginault. What comes after the OR series will be interesting and I'm sure A+ quality.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

double post...mod delete please


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Saw this in the FB group, figured I'd show this *mock up* here with permission.

At first the fully graduated markers look too busy, but on the no date it looks pretty good IMO. And the blue smurf lume looks way better with the ceramic too.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Quantumleap said:


> There is no such thing as bad advertising.
> 
> I also think there's two types of people. TC is clearly a knockoff artist, at least in his past. Some people will shy away from any association, and even take an even harder stance on what is produced because of it. Other people see this new form of marketing homages as a change that, if anything, should be encouraged, and seeing as it's clearly an homage as it is not labelled Rolex with the crown, have no problem with it. I personally stand with the latter. You can bet your bottom dollar if he was breaking any law, Rolex would be all over it.


I have never heard of this brand until I joined. It's hard to miss since you see Ginault being talked about everywhere. Funny thing is although every thread I read about Ginault were interlocked with haters and detractors crucifying the brand, none can really nay-say about the quality of the Ocean Rover.

I read the whole story about how TC is involved or the mastermind of Ginault and the brand's deceitful claims and lies. All that cannot possibly be doing the brand and its image any good and yet its price on secondary market remains close to its retail which gotta get you pondering a bit.

I don't own a Ginault nor have I handled one yet, but based on the pictures I have seen, the OR is produced by guys who know what they are doing (I am machinist)

And if the story were true, I personally think it's a plus for this master counterfeiter to go legit and utilize his talent and skills on the right path.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> Saw this in the FB group, figured I'd show this *mock up* here with permission.
> 
> At first the fully graduated markers look too busy, but on the no date it looks pretty good IMO. And the blue smurf lume looks way better with the ceramic too.
> 
> View attachment 14589657


It looks awesome! Also great mock up, the guy just missed the little yellow pearl in the triangle.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> It looks awesome! Also great mock up, the guy just missed the little yellow pearl in the triangle.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


LOL what a joke, looks like a yellow puzz


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Porsche993 said:


> Guess you don't check Ebay


I don't understand how something that cost less than $100 (fake watch) can be sold for $1000 plus and people here are chewing it up. Why not get a better quality watch like the Squale, or the Steinhart for half the price?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

* Has plenty of food in hand ready to feed the troll......remembers a fun fact that feeding trolls only makes them more hungry 

*** Puts food back in pocket and walks away... 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I don't understand how something that cost less than $100 (fake watch) can be sold for $1000 plus and people here are chewing it up. Why not get a better quality watch like the Squale, or the Steinhart for half the price?


Lol, "better quality..."
You haven't actually held a Ginault, right?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I don't understand how something that cost less than $100 (fake watch) can be sold for $1000 plus and people here are chewing it up. Why not get a better quality watch like the Squale, or the Steinhart for half the price?


Here we go again, an expert giving us his "expert" opinions!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I don't understand how something that cost less than $100 (fake watch) can be sold for $1000 plus and people here are chewing it up. Why not get a better quality watch like the Squale, or the Steinhart for half the price?


Cause like all the .... talkers you've never touched one....


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> * Has plenty of food in hand ready to feed the troll......remembers a fun fact that feeding trolls only makes them more hungry
> 
> *** Puts food back in pocket and walks away...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Exactly. When I see someone who joined this month and has only 20 posts to their name throwing nonsense opinions like this around to purposefully try to instigate drama, the first thought in my head is "I wonder what this person's original user name was before they got banned?"


----------



## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> * Has plenty of food in hand ready to feed the troll......remembers a fun fact that feeding trolls only makes them more hungry
> 
> *** Puts food back in pocket and walks away...
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Exactly. When I see someone who joined this month and has only 20 posts to their name throwing nonsense opinions like this around to purposefully try to instigate drama, the first thought in my head is "I wonder what this person's original user name was before they got banned?"


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Cause like all the .... talkers you've never touched one....


I think he thinks TC made the $100 knock offs. Heck, if you buy one of today's models, he's throwing Sellita SW200 movements in. Those are $200 alone, never mind the build quality.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

With all the rain we've been having I guess the inflated water levels have washed things out from under the bridges...

That said if it thinks a TC only costs a hundred bucks then this might actually be the first naysayer we’ve had that hasn’t been a rabid consumer of goods from the dark side


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Porsche993 said:
> 
> 
> > Guess you don't check Ebay
> ...


Because a Ginault's quality is miles above Squale and Steinhart put together. The list of features that are better is long, really long. It's like comparing a Dacia with a Range Rover.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Arrived a little bit ago. Amazing bracelet! Awesome all the way around.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I got a PM asking if there was anything I didn't like about the Ginault OR1....fine...sure...I think the BGW9 lume could be better...but its really about 80% as good as my Explorer and about 60% as good as my Seiko...nothing beats a Seiko...LOL!!!!


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Quantumleap said:


> Arrived a little bit ago. Amazing bracelet! Awesome all the way around.
> 
> View attachment 14590901
> 
> ...


As a follow up, I put this on the timegrapher this evening. It's the SW200, so you know it's going to be good, I have several and they all behave well, but none as well as this! Check it out!


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Duplicate - deleted. Feel free to remove is you have the superpower to do so!


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> Exactly. When I see someone who joined this month and has only 20 posts to their name throwing nonsense opinions like this around to purposefully try to instigate drama, the first thought in my head is "I wonder what this person's original user name was before they got banned?"


Never got banned and never had an original user name....was just speaking my mind based on what I have read. There are way better Sub homage brands out there like NTH with better superior products than this copycat rip off. I just don't understand why.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Never got banned and never had an original user name....was just speaking my mind based on what I have read. There are way better Sub homage brands out there like NTH with better superior products than this copycat rip off. I just don't understand why.


**pulls out a small piece of food to give to troll

What exactly is it a copycat ripoff of??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Never got banned and never had an original user name....was just speaking my mind based on what I have read. There are way better Sub homage brands out there like NTH with better superior products than this copycat rip off. I just don't understand why.


So, my friend, I can tell you what you have read is incorrect, and I'll show you why I feel that way. Here's some of my sub / micro brand collection - my hand at this table so to speak. Each watch is special in it's own way - from that beat up Orient Mako that got me into this, to the NTH's and especially the Carolina. And I love that DocVail hangs out with us here on WUS. And the Father and Son Silver built that kick-ass Archetype One. And that Wes and Cullen bust ass to build something different like the Retrospect or Trieste. And don't say I'm missing a Steinhart OVM 39 - sold that when I got the Silver. But none of them are built to the overall fit and finish of the Ocean Rover. Sorry. You may not like the backstory, but the that's just the way it is. These watches are in my hands. On my wrist. Bought with my hard earned $. That doesn't make the NTH or Silver or Nodus or Tisell an inferior or superior watch. They play at different price points, appealing to different buyers. So, please don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet. People have many agendas. Heck mine might be to show off my purple micro-fiber cloth that came with the ForgeStar wheels I no longer own


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Never got banned and never had an original user name....was just speaking my mind based on what I have read. There are way better Sub homage brands out there like NTH with better superior products than this copycat rip off. I just don't understand why.


Very opinionated for someone with less than 30 days on this forum.

Here is what I don't understand- you just bought a Helson "Sharkmaster 300", correct? Isn't Helson the brand that currently sells a "copycat ripoff" of the Longines Legend dive watch? Isn't the "Sharkmaster 300" an equal "copycat ripoff" of the Omega Seamaster 300?

If you'd like to learn about fit and finish and quality manufacturing, take a moment to read the threads on the Helson Sharkmaster 600 (another "copycat ripoff" of another Omega currently in production) and it's lack of water resistance and rusty click springs.

Your statements and actions are remarkably inconsistent.

PS - I owned a Helson Seamaster 300. The Ginault is leagues ahead of the Helson in terms of fit and finish.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

I like very submariner homage...I have try davosa ternos...tisell..steinhart...I spent time to read many reviews or video to YouTube...
All say that Ginault is super super quality..one step under Rolex..
Now with ceramic bezel and selitta movement I think it's more super..I wait Mine in 2 months and then I will say my opinion...


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> Very opinionated for someone with less than 30 days on this forum.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand- you just bought a Helson "Sharkmaster 300", correct? Isn't Helson the brand that currently sells a "copycat ripoff" of the Longines Legend dive watch? Isn't the "Sharkmaster 300" an equal "copycat ripoff" of the Omega Seamaster 300?
> 
> ...


Yes I have less than posts than you and yes I have a younger account than yours but doesn't mean my opinion is wrong about the NTH being the king of Sub homage here on WUS.

Doc of NTH builds the watches with extreme passion is a true Rolex nerd, knows what he is doing. What about Ginault? The guy has zero passion by just ordering some cheap off the shelf replica parts and put together a $50 watch, and sell it for $1,000.

NTH's following and discussion threads are only with praises and happy owners. You should get a NTH and see for yourself.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Please fellas, remember rule number one: don't feed the troll!

By the way, the first ceramic ORII have been shipped already, people that ordered in May are starting to get theirs!

Meanwhile, I enjoy having fun and tinkering with my OR1. Talking about versatility, I gave it sort of a bluesy spin now, polishing the center links and adding mercedes hands (relumed by yours truly):










I find it amazing that you can get that same look and this one too, same watch!


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Yes I have less than posts than you and yes I have a younger account than yours but doesn't mean my opinion is wrong about the NTH being the king of Sub homage here on WUS.
> 
> Doc of NTH builds the watches with extreme passion is a true Rolex nerd, knows what he is doing. What about Ginault? The guy has zero passion by just ordering some cheap off the shelf replica parts and put together a $50 watch, and sell it for $1,000.
> 
> NTH's following and discussion threads are only with praises and happy owners. You should get a NTH and see for yourself.


Sure thing. You are a great advertisement - which is what I suspect was your intention all along.


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## jerseydan31 (Sep 27, 2015)

Folks,

got the OR2 last night!! What a watch. Leaps and bounds superior to the OR1.

I've started a picture review:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-river-2-201875-picture-review-5062733.html

Enjoy folks!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Yes I have less than posts than you and yes I have a younger account than yours but doesn't mean my opinion is wrong about the NTH being the king of Sub homage here on WUS.
> 
> Doc of NTH builds the watches with extreme passion is a true Rolex nerd, knows what he is doing. What about Ginault? The guy has zero passion by just ordering some cheap off the shelf replica parts and put together a $50 watch, and sell it for $1,000.
> 
> NTH's following and discussion threads are only with praises and happy owners. You should get a NTH and see for yourself.


Ok you've proved your point. We should all be utterly ashamed of ourselves for buying a watch made with 0 passion with such cheap off the shelf sellita movements, enamel dials, ceramic bezels and oyster bracelets. shame on us!!

Now head on back to the NTH thread before master realises your missing.

@mrmorfo - What lume did you use for the hands?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

mrmorfo what kind of spring bar removal tool are you using to swap out your bracelet? I really struggled to get the bracelet back on with my cheap amazon kit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

hkhan.001 said:


> mrmorfo what kind of spring bar removal tool are you using to swap out your bracelet? I really struggled to get the bracelet back on with my cheap amazon kit.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bergeon 6767:










Also I usually unscrew one link on the bracelet as I find it way easier to take off if I have the upper and lower parts separate.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> @mrmorfo - What lume did you use for the hands?


I initially bought a cheap vintage kit which proved quite useless as the binder was of very low quality and easily created bubbles:










Then I bought a Bergeon kit, which is miles better:









I kept the brown colour of the vintage kit and threw away the rest. Used just a very tiny dab of the brown vintage pigment as it both darkens the lume and also makes it less bright at night. I had to try several times until I found a good balance between colour and density (the thinner it is, the lighter the colour).

Funny enough, I think the fluorescent powder on the cheap kit did glow more than the Bergeon. Apparently Bergeon only sells C5 superluminova which is not as bright as C3, but a small pot of C3 costs a fortune!

Needless to say, Ginault's lume is amazing and even a proper Bergeon lume isn't as bright as Ginault's. Not bad for a $50 watch ;-P


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Bergeon 6767:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I still don't see how its possible w/o the "tweezer" style spring bar tool....on mine the SEL tolerances are so tight that I can't do the one side then the other kind of thing...which is a bummer as I like to wear leather, perlon and ballistic on my divers...so my OR1 stays on bracelet for now and gets way more wear in winter than summer....


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> I still don't see how its possible w/o the "tweezer" style spring bar tool....on mine the SEL tolerances are so tight that I can't do the one side then the other kind of thing...which is a bummer as I like to wear leather, perlon and ballistic on my divers...so my OR1 stays on bracelet for now and gets way more wear in winter than summer....


I must say, the OR1 tolerances are impressive and the solid end links fitting is really tight (which is great).

What I usually finish unscrew this first, Soni have two parts of the bracelet separate:










Then I grab it like this, making slight pressure with the index finger:









And then it's a matter of using the "Y" shaped side of the tool on the springboard while pushing a little bit. Practice with other watches if you want.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Hey, thanks for your add'l thoughts and pics. Yes, I do take the bracelet apart...it would be impossible w/o doing that...funny, that's pretty much how I it did it with my Explorer, but not able to do so w/my Ginault!


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

LARufCTR said:


> I still don't see how its possible w/o the "tweezer" style spring bar tool....on mine the SEL tolerances are so tight that I can't do the one side then the other kind of thing...which is a bummer as I like to wear leather, perlon and ballistic on my divers...so my OR1 stays on bracelet for now and gets way more wear in winter than summer....


I bought my OR1 preowned and it came on a NATO strap. It must have taken me 10 minutes to get the bracelet on due to the SEL tolerances. It took a lot more manipulating and holding it at different angles to figure out how to get both sides in.

I actually just bought a pair of cheap spring bar removal tweezers on eBay yesterday because of this. The cheap Chinese ones are only ~$15.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Personally no strap looks better than the SS bracelet with its recessed end links and tight tolerances, no other type of strap can compare. It'll never come off the case.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Axinnon said:


> Personally no strap looks better than the SS bracelet with its recessed end links and tight tolerances, no other type of strap can compare. It'll never come off the case.


Agreed...but when its hot the bracelet gets sweaty...other materials are either less sweaty or not at all. Plus I do like changing up the look of my OR...In addition, I tend to take my watch off @ work when doing a lot on the laptop as it rubs on the clasp...not so much an issue with a non-metallic material and small pin buckle or deployant...lastly..its A LOT lighter w/o the bracelet!....but you are right...the bracelet is A+ and looks A++....I never liked a bracelet before this watch


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Citizen V said:


> I bought my OR1 preowned and it came on a NATO strap. It must have taken me 10 minutes to get the bracelet on due to the SEL tolerances. It took a lot more manipulating and holding it at different angles to figure out how to get both sides in.
> 
> I actually just bought a pair of cheap spring bar removal tweezers on eBay yesterday because of this. The cheap Chinese ones are only ~$15.


I have a Bergeon spring bar tool and a handful of similar tools of various quality, but I think I may break down and buy a set of spring bar tweezers too.

I've never taken the bracelet off my Ginault, but I do swap out bracelets and bands on a couple other watches and I always worry about slipping a scratching the underside of a lug.

FWIW, little bits of electrical tape on the underside of the lug can provide a bit of protection while you mess with end links and spring bars.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

Just arrived today, Smurf Lume with Black Ceramic. Having the AR makes the date a lot easier to read! Every bit as nice as my 5 and 6 digit subs from that "R" company. They really should think about slimming the case back with their next 6 digit submariner release. Until then I will continue to enjoy the quality and refinement of the OR II and of course the OR I.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

FWIW....

I love changing straps on my OR, so I sprung for some cheapie spring bar pliers, at first I was a bit underwhelmed... but then I kinda realised just how important it is that 1. the fork ends are both fitted to be the same length and 2. that the forked tips are exactly parallel to each other

Now after a bit of practice they're a revelation! I can use them better than I can chopsticks (which isn't saying much to be fair)

I've found (YMMV) that when refitting the bracelet start with the 6 o clock side, then open the glidelock to the max setting (ie the longest) then the thinnest bit of the folding part should be about where the 12 side is and there's no need to take a screw out each time (which I used to do using a regular spring bar tool, but I loctite the screws and that got boring doing it each time)


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

DouglasI said:


> View attachment 14593889
> Just arrived today, Smurf Lume with Black Ceramic. Having the AR makes the date a lot easier to read! Every bit as nice as my 5 and 6 digit subs from that "R" company. They really should think about slimming the case back with their next 6 digit submariner release. Until then I will continue to enjoy the quality and refinement of the OR II and of course the OR I.


Awesome watches, sir! The kermit has some kind of creamy lume, is that just the normal smurfs or the gold sand?


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

For these that have received the watch, did you also get an email from Ginault that has been shipped or the OR2 just showed up at the door ?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> FWIW....
> 
> I love changing straps on my OR, so I sprung for some cheapie spring bar pliers, at first I was a bit underwhelmed... but then I kinda realised just how important it is that 1. the fork ends are both fitted to be the same length and 2. that the forked tips are exactly parallel to each other
> 
> ...


Wish you were my neighbor!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

LARufCTR said:


> Wish you were my neighbor!


Well on the plus side LA and Porto are give or take on the same latitude, but sadly there's about 9000 km difference on the longitude

I've been to LA a couple of times, but sadly not for many years


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

LARufCTR said:


> Agreed...but when its hot the bracelet gets sweaty...other materials are either less sweaty or not at all. Plus I do like changing up the look of my OR...In addition, I tend to take my watch off @ work when doing a lot on the laptop as it rubs on the clasp...not so much an issue with a non-metallic material and small pin buckle or deployant...lastly..its A LOT lighter w/o the bracelet!....but you are right...the bracelet is A+ and looks A++....I never liked a bracelet before this watch


"Agreed... but not really" lol

Different strokes!


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)

First review is out!

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/gina...5-picture-review-5062733.html#/topics/5062733


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

So, I thought a long time if I should post this. Before I bought my Ginault 181270GSLID, I did a lot of research and I had several long conversations with the Ginault representative who claimed to be John on Facebook. We talked about every aspect of the watch from design, movement, to the people behind the Ginault operation. Before my conversation with John, I already knew about the similarities between TC's Rolex replica and Ginault, but at that time nobody had confirmed the linkage. Before then, I had also read a lot about the comparisons between ETA 2824-2, Sellita SW200-1, STP 1-11, and the Chinese version of the same movement. I had seen pictures of those movements been put under microscope. Although those movements were essentially the same under bare eyes, the quality differences were obvious under microscope.

Based on everything I have read online, the quality of Ginault's self made movement seemed to be above the Chinese-made 2824-2 and on par with Swiss made 2824-2. That led to an obvious question: Where did Ginault come up with the money to invest in the tools that were needed to manufacture the movement from scratch, and where did they come up with the watchmakers that can produce the same quality of movement as produced by Swiss manufacturers. And, don't forget that they manufacture the movement in the U.S. It must cost them a fortune, right? Compared to other micro brands, the quality to price ratio of Ginault's watches just doesn't make sense to me especially considering their claim of manufactured in the U.S. Nothing against other micro brands, but nothing I have seen and touched under $1,000 can even come close to Ginault's quality. I just don't understand how Ginault was able to offer such a deep discount to early adopters. My only reasonable conclusion was that Ginault must have another income sources that fund their watch operation. 

When I talked to John, I told him everything I just posted above. His answer was that Ginault was made up by a group of very experienced watchmakers, including himself, who were very familiar with ETA 2824-2. John also said they had access to a network of CNC shops and making a clone ETA 2824-2 was not that difficult. Well, I then asked, if that's the case, why didn't other watch brands make their own ETA 2824-2 clones? I didn't receive a satisfactory answer.

Anyhow, John was very knowledgeable about watches, and I eventually found a second hand Ocean Rover at a good price, so I bought it. Yes, I was amazed by the quality of Ginault watch and I love the look of mine. That is, until I read the article about Ginault and TC.

Now, everything made sense to me. TC, who is also the man behind Ginault, is a US defense contractor and probably made lots of money manufacturing for the U.S. military, and that's why he can offer deep discount for his watches. It also made the sense why John knew so much about CNC machinery. There are a few other signs that make me quite sure that the person who claimed to be John is actually TC.

I eventually decided to sell my Ocean Rover, and I will never buy another Ginault. It is not because the watch is bad, I just hate to be lied to. If TC comes forward and said, "I used to make Rolex replica but now I want to make my own brand", I would totally buy his watches. However, making up lies to cover your past just isn't right.

My rant is over.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Love these OR2 pics


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

Pneuma said:


> So, I thought a long time if I should post this. Before I bought my Ginault 181270GSLID, I did a lot of research and I had several long conversations with the Ginault representative who claimed to be John on Facebook. We talked about every aspect of the watch from design, movement, to the people behind the Ginault operation. Before my conversation with John, I already knew about the similarities between TC's Rolex replica and Ginault, but at that time nobody had confirmed the linkage. Before then, I had also read a lot about the comparisons between ETA 2824-2, Sellita SW200-1, STP 1-11, and the Chinese version of the same movement. I had seen pictures of those movements been put under microscope. Although those movements were essentially the same under bare eyes, the quality differences were obvious under microscope.


Can you share a link to this? I have been trying to find a comparison like this but could not. Thanks!



Pneuma said:


> Based on everything I have read online, the quality of Ginault's self made movement seemed to be above the Chinese-made 2824-2 and on par with Swiss made 2824-2. That led to an obvious question: Where did Ginault come up with the money to invest in the tools that were needed to manufacture the movement from scratch, and where did they come up with the watchmakers that can produce the same quality of movement as produced by Swiss manufacturers. And, don't forget that they manufacture the movement in the U.S. It must cost them a fortune, right? Compared to other micro brands, the quality to price ratio of Ginault's watches just doesn't make sense to me especially considering their claim of manufactured in the U.S. Nothing against other micro brands, but nothing I have seen and touched under $1,000 can even come close to Ginault's quality. I just don't understand how Ginault was able to offer such a deep discount to early adopters. My only reasonable conclusion was that Ginault must have another income sources that fund their watch operation.


This is a bit misleading. Based on everything I have read, Ginault only made/CNCed *CERTAIN* parts in the 7275 movement. The key components, also the hardest parts to fabricate, like the springs were sourced from Switzerland. That shockblock was from China. I am a machinist, and I don't think their clam is unreasonable. Many independent shops do actually have the ability to produce basic movement parts. For the parts that Ginault mentioned that had to be imported do require specialized machines to make.



Pneuma said:


> When I talked to John, I told him everything I just posted above. His answer was that Ginault was made up by a group of very experienced watchmakers, including himself, who were very familiar with ETA 2824-2. John also said they had access to a network of CNC shops and making a clone ETA 2824-2 was not that difficult. Well, I then asked, if that's the case, why didn't other watch brands make their own ETA 2824-2 clones? I didn't receive a satisfactory answer.


Not trying to be a smart ass here mate, but how can you ask Ginault to answer for the decisions/capabilities of other brands?



Pneuma said:


> Anyhow, John was very knowledgeable about watches, and I eventually found a second hand Ocean Rover at a good price, so I bought it. Yes, I was amazed by the quality of Ginault watch and I love the look of mine.


So what is it? some guy just claimed their parts were sourced from cheap chinese off the shelf watch catalogs........



Pneuma said:


> Now, everything made sense to me. TC, who is also the man behind Ginault, is a US defense contractor and probably made lots of money manufacturing for the U.S. military, and that's why he can offer deep discount for his watches. It also made the sense why John knew so much about CNC machinery.


The shop I work for focuses on precision medical supplies, aerospace, and military contracts. Trust me out of those three, gov and military contracts puts you in a loss most of the time. Many shops do it solely for "street cred"



Pneuma said:


> There are a few other signs that make me quite sure that the person who claimed to be John is actually TC.


Sounds like you knew TC and chatted with him before? So you also bought a TC I assume?



Pneuma said:


> I eventually decided to sell my Ocean Rover, and I will never buy another Ginault. It is not because the watch is bad, I just hate to be lied to. If TC comes forward and said, "I used to make Rolex replica but now I want to make my own brand", I would totally buy his watches. However, making up lies to cover your past just isn't right.


This is really getting interesting. I am seeing a conflicting statement here. You said you chatted with Ginault and yet in the end you bought a used one; this is before you read about the expose'. So sounds like it really doesn't matter if they did what you suggested, the guiding principle was mostly based on price concern if I am not mistaken. Money + mouth not synced LOL

TC from what I have researched has almost a god like status over on the other forums. Praised for being super skilled, a true craftsman with passion for what he was doing, and his stuff, again based on what I read, were light years ahead of what the other people were making.

I just ordered a Steinhart 39mm and it's on the way. But now I am really interested to see what the Ocean Rover is like in the flesh.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> Awesome watches, sir! The kermit has some kind of creamy lume, is that just the normal smurfs or the gold sand?


Same lume on both. Likely just the angle of the light.


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## Pneuma (Feb 23, 2012)

btcity380 said:


> Can you share a link to this? I have been trying to find a comparison like this but could not. Thanks!
> 
> This is a bit misleading. Based on everything I have read, Ginault only made/CNCed *CERTAIN* parts in the 7275 movement. The key components, also the hardest parts to fabricate, like the springs were sourced from Switzerland. That shockblock was from China. I am a machinist, and I don't think their clam is unreasonable. Many independent shops do actually have the ability to produce basic movement parts. For the parts that Ginault mentioned that had to be imported do require specialized machines to make.
> 
> ...


Here are two examples. There are out there, you just need to search harder.

https://watchguy.co.uk/comparison-sea-gull-st2130-eta-2824-2-peacock-sl3000/
https://watchguy.co.uk/review-stp-1-11/

My question is not if Ginault can find someone to produce movement parts or not. My questions are: (a) Can they produce the movement parts in the same quality as those Swiss movement manufacturers while doing it more economically? and (b) Without the benefit of scaling, how much do they have to spend on tooling and personnel training in order to produce the same quality of movement as ETA, Sellita, and STP in the United States? Is the cost of producing their own movements in the U.S. correctly reflected on the price of their watches? Remember, manufacture cost is only part of the cost of running a micro brand. Who's paying for QC, shipping, marketing, customer services...etc.? Yes, I understand that they bought a few key components from other suppliers, but they still have a quite large number of parts to manufacture. And why do they want to produce their own ETA 2824-2 clone in the U.S. when you can just buy from Sellita or STP?

Regarding TC, I did not know anything about him before I started researching Ginault. I was not into replica watches so I had no idea of his reputation. I am not sure what conflicting statement you saw. I chatted with John because I was very interested in buying a Ginault Ocean Rover. I ended up buying a used instead of new Ginault and that's it. My point is not to question the quality of Ginault's watches. Believe me, they are exceptionally good even for the full price. I just don't like all the lies that come with it.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Has anyone who ordered in July/August and paid a down payment been asked to pay the difference yet?

Anyone who ordered earlier and paid a down payment?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

WastedYears said:


> Has anyone who ordered in July/August and paid a down payment been asked to pay the difference yet?
> 
> Anyone who ordered earlier and paid a down payment?


Paid the first deposit on the 1st of July and still haven't got any email about it.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Pneuma said:


> Here are two examples. There are out there, you just need to search harder.
> 
> https://watchguy.co.uk/comparison-sea-gull-st2130-eta-2824-2-peacock-sl3000/
> https://watchguy.co.uk/review-stp-1-11/
> ...


I have read the Asian Vs ETA comparison from Watchguy several times, it's really good indeed. What I haven't seen before is the STP review, that's amazing thank you very much!

Regarding to your point not to stay with the brand, I get it and I understand. At least you know what you are talking about and don't mislead anyone claiming the quality of the watch is subpar or any other weird claim. Your point is very understandable.

In my case, I also had the impression that TC might be behind them, but honestly never cared about that. Even the fact that John might be hiding that to me doesn't bother me either. It's a compromise I take and that's all. I value the watch over that.

The thing is that not 100% trusting a brand on a $1,500 purchase that has to (hopefully) outlive you is a bit of a gamble. In my case, I can perform minor repairs or just change a movement / hands, so I'm not afraid of the brand just disappearing as I can fix the watch myself. Moreover, I know enough about watches to realise that almost any watchsmith can work on the Ocean Rover for the two lost obvious reason: 1. It has an ETA inside and 2. The steel works are just the same of one of the most well known diver watch. Any competent watchsmith can re-polish, change a damaged crystal/bezel insert/crown/hands/etc.

Also, if I may, your post is a great example of civil discussion and legit criticism, thanks a lot.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Paid the first deposit on the 1st of July and still haven't got any email about it.


Thanks, good to know I'm not the only one.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> Thanks, good to know I'm not the only one.


Paid mine early June, then didn't hear anything for a while. I messaged John about in September he said he'll send an invoice for the remaining balance just before the watch is about to be dispatched.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> Paid mine early June, then didn't hear anything for a while. I messaged John about in September he said he'll send an invoice for the remaining balance just before the watch is about to be dispatched.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Yep, he said exactly the same to me. Told him I was ready to pay the rest and he said there's no need and they will ask for the remaining funds once they were about to ship the watch.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I placed my deposit in May and he said my watch should ship out in about 1-2 weeks.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

drttown said:


> I placed my deposit in May and he said my watch should ship out in about 1-2 weeks.


Very jealous!!! I'm awaiting pics of the blue ceramic bezel ...

My wife ordered blue bezel, glowing smurf lume, black date wheel (for my birthday in June).

Still undecided on the in-house vs Sellita movement.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

jhinson1 said:


> Very jealous!!! I'm awaiting pics of the blue ceramic bezel ...
> 
> My wife ordered blue bezel, glowing smurf lume, black date wheel (for my birthday in June).
> 
> ...


You may have a very long wait on the blue bezel(hopefully that is not the case) as he did say there is an indefinite delay on the blue bezel. I changed my order to a black bezel for that reason.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Alas, I ordered in August! Doh!!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

drttown said:


> You may have a very long wait on the blue bezel(hopefully that is not the case) as he did say there is an indefinite delay on the blue bezel. I changed my order to a black bezel for that reason.


Yup. This is true. I wasn't in TOO much of a hurry so I've been enjoying other watches in the meantime. I've been staying in contact regarding the progress. I guess I'll see if I can hold out .

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> Very opinionated for someone with less than 30 days on this forum.
> 
> Here is what I don't understand- you just bought a Helson "Sharkmaster 300", correct? Isn't Helson the brand that currently sells a "copycat ripoff" of the Longines Legend dive watch? Isn't the "Sharkmaster 300" an equal "copycat ripoff" of the Omega Seamaster 300?
> 
> ...


I'm well-hated in this forum but I'm going to defend Helson on one model - the one I owned. The Shark Diver 40mm v1.

I've owned TWO Ginault OR's. I'd put that v1 Shark Dover I owned up against both of the OR's I owned all day long. Tighter tolerances than the OR's. At least mine was.

Regret selling that piece. It funded the Steinhart OVM v1 that eventually led me to owning (and selling) my two OR's.

Glad everyone loves what they love. It would be great if a newcomer with an opinion that didn't adhere to yours was allowed to speak freely, but we all know how those folks get treated here in the halls of Ginaultville. It's well-documented for anyone to read.

Good day everyone. Wear what you own with pride.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> I'm well-hated in this forum but I'm going to defend Helson on one model - the one I owned. The Shark Diver 40mm v1.
> 
> I've owned TWO Ginault OR's. I'd put that v1 Shark Dover I owned up against both of the OR's I owned all day long. Tighter tolerances than the OR's. At least mine was.
> 
> ...


He wasn't someone with an opinion. He was a troll looking to raise another round of drama and beat long-dead horses. Apparently his secondary motive was to promote NTH watches which I find ironic given the alleged connection between the two brands.

As for the Helson, I owned a Sharkmaster 300 and own a Ginault OR. After comparing the two side by side I can absolutely state the Ginault was a better built watch than the Helson. The Helson was not a bad watch, but it had extremely sharp edges on the crown and bezel teeth, to the point it was uncomfortable to operate either. Helson has also suffered recent manufacturing quality defects on which puts me off from trusting the brand.

If you want to defend someone, at least find someone worthy of the effort.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Ryeguy said:


> He wasn't someone with an opinion. He was a troll looking to raise another round of drama and beat long-dead horses. Apparently his secondary motive was to promote NTH watches which I find ironic given the alleged connection between the two brands.
> 
> As for the Helson, I owned a Sharkmaster 300 and own a Ginault OR. After comparing the two side by side I can absolutely state the Ginault was a better built watch than the Helson. The Helson was not a bad watch, but it had extremely sharp edges on the crown and bezel teeth, to the point it was uncomfortable to operate either. Helson has also suffered recent manufacturing quality defects on which puts me off from trusting the brand.
> 
> If you want to defend someone, at least find someone worthy of the effort.


Hey, is that the guy that put a Tisell at the same level with a Ginault? Lol! He should have stayed with his fake rolexes...


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

jhinson1 said:


> Yup. This is true. I wasn't in TOO much of a hurry so I've been enjoying other watches in the meantime. I've been staying in contact regarding the progress. I guess I'll see if I can hold out .
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Since I changed mine to a black bezel, he did tell me that if the blue ever becomes available, he would work something out with me....


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

drttown said:


> Since I changed mine to a black bezel, he did tell me that if the blue ever becomes available, he would work something out with me....


Hmm okay. I'll keep that in mind for sure. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> Hey, is that the guy that put a Tisell at the same level with a Ginault? Lol! He should have stayed with his fake rolexes...


This thread is all sorts of amazing. It seems like every Sub homage brand's shill want to advertise on here while at it, elbow the Ocean Rover on the way out.

First we got the shill from NTH with less than 30 posts and a brand new account......and now we have Mr David Dec whom claimed the Tissel is every bit as good if not better than the Ocean Rover dogging on the Ocean Rover every turn of the corner. And now want to claim Helson is better made the the Ocean Rover in terms of quality and tolerance. For a guy who cannot discern the obvious difference in quality, it's hard to really trust such judgement.

What I find even more odd is that Dec David made the whole forum known that he no longer is interested in homage watches, follows the Ginault thread quite closely. Conflicting conflicting conflicting if you ask me.

It seems to me the brands that make Sub homages all try to compare to Ginault. Although they do not want to admit it, but in the sub homage arena, Ocean Rover is king, and no other brands came close in terms of quality and craftsmanship.


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> He wasn't someone with an opinion. He was a troll looking to raise another round of drama and beat long-dead horses. Apparently his secondary motive was to promote NTH watches which I find ironic given the alleged connection between the two brands.
> 
> As for the Helson, I owned a Sharkmaster 300 and own a Ginault OR. After comparing the two side by side I can absolutely state the Ginault was a better built watch than the Helson. The Helson was not a bad watch, but it had extremely sharp edges on the crown and bezel teeth, to the point it was uncomfortable to operate either. Helson has also suffered recent manufacturing quality defects on which puts me off from trusting the brand.
> 
> If you want to defend someone, at least find someone worthy of the effort.


Not a troll, not looking to raise the next round of drama here, definately not promoting NTH here. I was stating some facts, trying to enlighten the meek.

You seemed to labor more effort pivoting the focus to the Helson I recently purchased for a friend of mine, rather than a direct counter to my NTH vs Ginault statement. Does that mean you acquiesce?


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Don’t feed the squirrels, ... er, trolls!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Not a troll, not looking to raise the next round of drama here, definately not promoting NTH here. I was stating some facts, trying to enlighten the meek.
> 
> You seemed to labor more effort pivoting the focus to the Helson I recently purchased for a friend of mine, rather than a direct counter to my NTH vs Ginault statement. Does that mean you acquiesce?


Answers to your statements was covered by a member who owns both an NTH and an OR in post #6067 which you have still haven't responded to.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

TheRealTC said:


> It seems to me the brands that make Sub homages all try to compare to Ginault. Although they do not want to admit it, but in the sub homage arena, Ocean Rover is king, and no other brands came close in terms of quality and craftsmanship.


To be fair, I have the impression that MkII has really decent quality overall, although most parts are still done with metal injection instead of pure machining. And the clasp is nowhere near Ginault's. At the end of the day, the only Submariner homage using the same steel crafting technique as the real thing is Ginault.

I can really understand the moral objections (although I still find them quite "high-horsey"), but anyone questioning the quality of the Ocean Rover is simply not worth to be listened to in a watch forum.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I think after you've owned a dozen or more watches including an OR and a Rolex or two, you can hold the OR in your hand, strap it on your wrist and say, "OK...this is a solid piece of craftsmanship"....regardless if you like the brand or not...it is simply a well made piece. And I'm not sure you can find a learned watchsmith to say differently. Full stop... 

I feel very fortunate that I have the option to wear what I want...and I've owned a lot of watches....and yet, yesterday, today and tomorrow I'm wearing my OR...it ticks all the boxes for me and keeps exceptional time. And no one has ever asked me..."is that a real Ginault?!"...LOL.....Some of what's discussed here is objective and some of it is subjective...at the end of the day a watch is really an emotional thing...emotional things are very subjective and have a lot of room for agreement and disagreement. Those who know...know...so don't mind the trolls...they are entertaining in their naivety.


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

More pics of OR’s and less of this nonsense..


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> He wasn't someone with an opinion. He was a troll looking to raise another round of drama and beat long-dead horses. Apparently his secondary motive was to promote NTH watches which I find ironic given the alleged connection between the two brands.
> 
> As for the Helson, I owned a Sharkmaster 300 and own a Ginault OR. After comparing the two side by side I can absolutely state the Ginault was a better built watch than the Helson. The Helson was not a bad watch, but it had extremely sharp edges on the crown and bezel teeth, to the point it was uncomfortable to operate either. Helson has also suffered recent manufacturing quality defects on which puts me off from trusting the brand.
> 
> If you want to defend someone, at least find someone worthy of the effort.


As I stated, I was speaking about one specific model I owned. Read why I wrote again and stop creating yet another narrative. Mine - my singular Shark Diver 40 - was superior to the OR models PLURAL that I owned. That's not opinion. It's a fact. You just don't like my facts.

That's not a strike against the OR models.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

TheRealTC said:


> This thread is all sorts of amazing. It seems like every Sub homage brand's shill want to advertise on here while at it, elbow the Ocean Rover on the way out.
> 
> First we got the shill from NTH with less than 30 posts and a brand new account......and now we have Mr David Dec whom claimed the Tissel is every bit as good if not better than the Ocean Rover dogging on the Ocean Rover every turn of the corner. And now want to claim Helson is better made the the Ocean Rover in terms of quality and tolerance. For a guy who cannot discern the obvious difference in quality, it's hard to really trust such judgement.
> 
> ...


I claimed the Tisell was as good as an OR? You have me confused with another person who attacked me in this thread and the other one I created. I damn sure wouldn't have said that after I owned two of them. The Tisell models I owned were awesome $200 watches. And that's what they are - $200 watches. No more. Well done. Well executed. Yet still $200 watches.

You'll find that one character on here started a thread a few years back claiming his Tisell was not different than a Rolex and to him a better watch. That wasn't me. That guys a tool. Loves to argue. Won't listen to reason.

Go check my history on Tisell. I started a thread on the Vintage Submersible BEFORE I owned either my of two OR's. I no longer own any Tisell watches or OR's. For the money, the Tisell Vintage Submersible was a fine watch. For the money. Rolex caliber? No. OR caliber? No.

You guys need to get your facts straight.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

MattG05 said:


> More pics of OR's and less of this nonsense..


All Smurfy....you can tell its a cyclops....BTW...that was 10:15AM...just came in from outside....no torching


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

BTW...I have no idea why sometimes loading a pic here puts it sideways...Lol....


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

MattG05 said:


> More pics of OR's and less of this nonsense..


Catching up on this thread, saw the latest posts, looked down at my wrist, pulled out my phone!

Here ya go!


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

MattG05 said:


> More pics of OR's and less of this nonsense..


Yes sir!


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I’ve had the OR1 for 12 weeks this coming Tuesday.

I’ve worn it every day since getting it.

I bought it secondhand, it cost me less than some of the Steinhart diver models cost new.

I’ve had a Steinhart, I’ve had the Davosa, I’ve had a Parnis, I’ve had a Tudor Aquanaut.

I own a MKii Kingston, I own a 114060.

The OR is a quality watch for my opinion.

The SEL to lug tolerance I’ve only seen matched on the aquanaut and the Rolex.

The bezel action is nicer than the MKii.

My OR’s accuracy is technically average, but in real life very strong, it has noticeable isochronism (although well in spec for a 2824 let alone what ever the Ginault caliber is supposed to be) - which means that if I’m busy as a bee it runs at about -2 spd, if I’m bone idle (which can be  ) then it’ll run up to about +4

This means in my usage pattern it can be 3 or 4 weeks since I set the time and it’s usually within 5-10 secs of being accurate 

Which is fk all

My Rolex is a true time keeper. +2 a day. 

Summer, +2 a day

Winter +2 a day

Haven’t worn it for 4 months, put it on? +2 

This is where the extra money goes (plus dealerships, service centres and sponsorships to sporting events and sports stars)

But +2 a day means that the Rolex time creeps up a bit after a month on the wrist (not that I’m complaining)

The lume’s (mine’s GSL) decent enough.... ain’t no Sumo... but I can still read it in the morning 

Frankly I don’t give a monkey’s where it’s made, I don’t care if the folks that make it used to make a different kind of watch, I don’t care if the manufacturer simply uses some of the same suppliers that the dark side uses.

I love that it has a whole catalogue of GENERIC parts available for it from well known parts suppliers... I had a microbrand watch with a worn pendant tube, reached out... part no longer available... the OR won’t present this part availability problem.

I know what a fake watch is. Buy a Seiko 5, put a Rolex decal on the dial over where it says Seiko... congrats, you just made a fake watch... a watch that pretends to one thing when it’s really another... the OR isn’t that.

Sure people have their opinions, they have their comfort zones.... hell man maybe people go to confession to ask the priest if it’s still ok to listen to Michael Jackson records.... I dunno... 

But I’m happy with my purchase, many others are too. 

Some aren’t happy with it and some wouldn’t even touch it.

It’s all cool and the gang, watch collecting is a community we don’t all like the same stuff and none of us are getting a Nobel prize outta this time wasting, money draining time measuring hobby

But people arrive to this thread simply to try and stir up drama. That has no defence and isn’t community spirited.

Anyway enjoy what you wear.

Cheers


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Hey, whoever is moderating this forum, can we put this post above as a sticky. Can we read it loud in prime TV every Saturday, and in every session in the Parliament, Congress and Saint Peter's basilica in Rome?

Well said sir! Truly well said.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

mrmorfo said:


> Hey, whoever is moderating this forum, can we put this post above as a sticky. Can we read it loud in prime TV every Saturday, and in every session in the Parliament, Congress and Saint Peter's basilica in Rome?
> 
> Well said sir! Truly well said.


I second this motion. Well stated.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Ok i looked at my OR timing notes #nerdalert

12 weeks next tue.

It's been in 40 deg heat. I've left it sitting around on the dresser for 24 hours, I've worn it to the gym..

Its fastest day was +7,

its slowest day was -5

It would be 39 secs fast (HAD I NEVER RESET IT) in 82 days (approx an average of 0.5 spd)

That's nuts for an auto...

Yes i know auto and time keeping.... just buy a quartz :-D

And sincerely I'd be happy, no actually delighted with +3 *mins* after 82 days

But if we strip away all the touchy feely and aesthetic stuff about watches (that makes us put down our money) then timekeeping is what it's all about... and my variant of the OR scores very well

My Kingston used to run like this too, then my kid dropped it, then it ran like plus 60 a day, then a watch guy got it to plus 2 and I've never managed to improve it* +2 will do fine though

*Anything involving hairspring manipulation or end shake of balance wheel pivots is waaaaaaaaaaay beyond my skillset. Plus two is fine.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> I claimed the Tisell was as good as an OR? You have me confused with another person who attacked me in this thread and the other one I created. I damn sure wouldn't have said that after I owned two of them. The Tisell models I owned were awesome $200 watches. And that's what they are - $200 watches. No more. Well done. Well executed. Yet still $200 watches.
> 
> You'll find that one character on here started a thread a few years back claiming his Tisell was not different than a Rolex and to him a better watch. That wasn't me. That guys a tool. Loves to argue. Won't listen to reason.
> 
> ...


Again, this fake Rolex buying idiot misconstrues my words. I never said the Tisell was better or equal to a Rolex.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> Again, this fake Rolex buying idiot misconstrues my words. I never said the Tisell was better or equal to a Rolex.


https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$200-tisell-marine-diver-vs-$9000-rolex-submariner-4699899.html


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> I never said the Tisell was better or equal to a Rolex.


Tell me again why you responded to this? I intentionally didn't name you in my post......yet you responded......


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/$200-tisell-marine-diver-vs-$9000-rolex-submariner-4699899.html


Let me paste a reply that you dodged a few months earlier.

I'll clue you in on this one to take your mind off of your replicas for a moment.

I made a reply there that I compared both watches first hand and that the Tisell was 30% of the watch that the 6 digit submariner is. The platinum coating on the bezel, and the refined recessed end links outclass the Tisell with a way better bracelet as well.

Literally all there, unedited, where I quantified it's 30% of the watch. That's pretty much the opposite of "better".

Of course, as a person who purchases replicas and used his passed father in a lie, I'm not surprised you have the character traits to lie about what I said in that thread too.

I responded to your reply regardless of my name not being mentioned cause of the casual lies streaming out of your mouth.

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> Let me paste a reply that you dodged a few months earlier.
> 
> I'll clue you in on this one to take your mind off of your replicas for a moment.
> 
> ...


I love how wrong you are about so much. It's hilarious! Good luck in life, slick.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Dec1968 said:


> As I stated, I was speaking about one specific model I owned. Read why I wrote again and stop creating yet another narrative. Mine - my singular Shark Diver 40 - was superior to the OR models PLURAL that I owned. That's not opinion. It's a fact. You just don't like my facts.
> 
> That's not a strike against the OR models.


I handled the Shark40 and don't think it came nearly the quality of the Ocean Rover. You can like the design more but that doesn't mean the quality and workmanship is better.

The fact is the Ocean Rover is made to be the best Sub homage and some more. The quality and craftsmanship on that watch is approaching very close limits to the watch is is paying homage to. While doing so, it also added a lot of additional features which Rolex fans wished Rolex would have done on their Sub. That's why the Ocean Rover has such a cult following. I am really looking forward to seeing the Ocean Rover 2 with the ceramic insert in person


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> Again, this fake Rolex buying idiot misconstrues my words. I never said the Tisell was better or equal to a Rolex.


I have ran into some people like this in the past. Lies in your face even with facts presented, and deny anything with a sneaky deflection, the goal is to cause confusion and negative sentiments.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 just can't give it up. Please do us all a favor and go play with your friends on the fake Rolex forums.


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Answers to your statements was covered by a member who owns both an NTH and an OR in post #6067 which you have still haven't responded to.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Right, that was a proxy pitch, Ryeguy himself never replied head on to what I stated instead pivot it to some other brand's comparison.....wondering why


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Right, that was a proxy pitch, Ryeguy himself never replied head on to what I stated instead pivot it to some other brand's comparison.....wondering why


What does Ryeguy have to do with someone else refuting your statements? Stop deflecting.


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## Bouch (Nov 1, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> I like very submariner homage...I have try davosa ternos...tisell..steinhart...I spent time to read many reviews or video to YouTube...
> All say that Ginault is super super quality..one step under Rolex..
> Now with ceramic bezel and selitta movement I think it's more super..I wait Mine in 2 months and then I will say my opinion...


Kostantinos, I can't answer you regarding your Steinhart because your MP messaging is full ... You should delete some messages.
Clement


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Right, that was a proxy pitch, Ryeguy himself never replied head on to what I stated instead pivot it to some other brand's comparison.....wondering why


I'll explain and try to use small words so you'll understand.

You called the Ginault a "copycat ripoff" yet a quick look at your post history shows you recently purchased a Helson Sharkmaster 300. The Sharkmaster 300 is every bit (if not arguably more) a "copycat ripoff" of an Omega Seamaster 300 as the Ginault is to a 5 digit Sub. Purchasing one while disparaging another puts your ethical high ground position in question (ask DEC1968 about this point).

I'll go even further by pointing out the number of "homages" Helson currently produces to current production watches such as the Longines Legend. I personally find this worse than Ginualt as at least Ginault focused on selecting and combining elements of long retired designs.

You finish your troll post with an endorsement for NTH which I find odd. It makes me question your motives for joining this discussion in the first place.

Bottom line:
- every single point you raised in your posts have been raised by other people in the past. No one cares to revisit the discussion and you would know this if you did even a small bit of reading.

- joining any conversation simply to insult the topic being discussed is universally seen as rude. This is why I consider you a troll.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

TheRealTC said:


> I handled the Shark40 and don't think it came nearly the quality of the Ocean Rover. You can like the design more but that doesn't mean the quality and workmanship is better.
> 
> The fact is the Ocean Rover is made to be the best Sub homage and some more. The quality and craftsmanship on that watch is approaching very close limits to the watch is is paying homage to. While doing so, it also added a lot of additional features which Rolex fans wished Rolex would have done on their Sub. That's why the Ocean Rover has such a cult following. I am really looking forward to seeing the Ocean Rover 2 with the ceramic insert in person


While I can't speak for any other specific Shark Diver pieces, I am specifically discussing the ONE I owned. Remember, I had to two OR watches. The one SD40 I had was better. That's it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> While I can't speak for any other specific Shark Diver pieces, I am specifically discussing the ONE I owned. Remember, I had to two OR watches. The one SD40 I had was better. That's it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The one you owned isn't going to be any better than the typical Shark Diver for whatever reason. Considering your bias and past hypocrisies, it's fair to throw your assessment out the window.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Dec1968 said:


> While I can't speak for any other specific Shark Diver pieces, I am specifically discussing the ONE I owned. Remember, I had to two OR watches. The one SD40 I had was better. That's it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm no expert on the Helson SD40, but looking at on-line reviews I would have a hard time comparing to two and declaring one the "better" watch. They look like remarkably different watch designs with minimal points of comparison. If I were looking for a mil sub homage, I would not consider the SD40 and if I were looking for a blocky "tool diver", I would likely not consider the Ginault OR.

The SD40 appears to have a much more industrial, blocky, aspect to it with slab sides, box-like crown guards, and a brushed finish. While the case is certainly more original in design (although the SD40 design is simply a downsize of that ubiquitous 2,000m case used by seemingly every micro over the past 10 years) than the Ginault OR, it appears much less refined in machining or polish.

The dial of the Ginault, with its enamel lacquer finish and applied indices appears more sophisticated than the Helson SD40 printed dial. Helsons are known for their lume, so I'm guessing they would beat the Ginault in that regard, but the GSL on my OR is readable throughout the night so "better" in this regard does not necessarily mean "more fit for purpose". They both work.

Having never owned or handled an SD40, I have no opinion on its crown or bezel feel, but the other Helson model I owned had very sharp edges on both. Given Helson uses Fullswing for their manufacturing, I'd guess all their products would be finished in a similar regard. My Helson's bezel did have precise clicks with no slop, but my Ginault does as well. The Ginault (Rolex 5 digit Sub) bezel design does allow for full field disassembly for cleaning and repair. As a diver and surfer, this is a feature I appreciate. I'm not certain about the Helson design, but a quick search does not show any reviews where the bezel is completely disassembled to show its click spring, etc. I'm guessing it is not a field-serviceable design.

Maybe the timekeeping on the Helson was better, but again, we are talking about mechanical watch movements with variability even within the same model. If you had the Miyota, I'll agree the 9015 example I own is a very good time keeper. Then again, I prefer bi-directional winding as found in the 2428-2 over the whirling rotor I find in the Miyota movements.

Finally, in comparing the Helson to the Ginault, customer service needs to be considered. With Peter leaving Helson, there have been numerous posts regarding quality and customer service issues. Dealing with a brand that is located half a world away (at least for our NA and EU colleagues) is challenging at best. Ginault at least has NA and EU service centers.

Bottom line for me is calling one or the other "better" makes no sense without context. If the point is timekeeping, I say "maybe", but that is more luck of the draw than anything else.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Small companies are more dependent on individuals while big companies, while still affected by individuals, is driven by process. When I worked for a small company, my salary and benefits, as well as how I was treated was dependent on one person. That worked for me when I got the job, but against me when he laid me off when he was out of town and there was no-one to appeal to or negotiate with for some leniency and I was laid off with 1 day notice before a holiday. On the other hand, big companies have rules and usually even high level managers have very little discretion. When I got laid off from a big company, it was an across the board cut. I got some help from my manager but the decision was not subject to appeal and my Manager couldn’t really “save” me. But the company had procedures that gave me severance pay and notice and an outplacement center. 

A small game company I used to buy games from had a great reputation for customer service. It turned out that was all down to one person in that job (and as it turned out, doing it in addition to her “real” job just because she thought it was the right thing to do). The company gets into financial trouble, she gets laid off, suddenly nobody gets any customer service at all. And now the company is out of business. 

The risk of any small company (including watch companies) is that they don’t have persistent procedures that dictate how you will be treated (or perhaps how accurately the watches will be regulated) beyond what the people in charge (or working for it) decide to do. That’s the risk. But you can talk to the “CEO” in a way you’d never get to do with say Rolex. But no matter who the CEO of Rolex is, you probably still get a superb watch with good QC — that is just how Rolex works. They’re more likely to persist as a company and likewise it’s rules, but even then it’s not a sure thing. 

Guess you decide where to place your bets (orders) and then you see how you do when the watch arrives. I’m still really looking forward to my ORII but it might be a while till I get mine! I think Ginault is a good bet.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Not my pics, but taken with permission. It looks like someone on the Facebook group got their No-Date GSL Ceramic ORII delivered 

































Hopefully some of the Date and No-Date BGW9 (aka Smurf) lume arrive in the next week or so for those interested

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

carbon_dragon said:


> Small companies are more dependent on individuals while big companies, while still affected by individuals, is driven by process. When I worked for a small company, my salary and benefits, as well as how I was treated was dependent on one person. That worked for me when I got the job, but against me when he laid me off when he was out of town and there was no-one to appeal to or negotiate with for some leniency and I was laid off with 1 day notice before a holiday. On the other hand, big companies have rules and usually even high level managers have very little discretion. When I got laid off from a big company, it was an across the board cut. I got some help from my manager but the decision was not subject to appeal and my Manager couldn't really "save" me. But the company had procedures that gave me severance pay and notice and an outplacement center.
> 
> A small game company I used to buy games from had a great reputation for customer service. It turned out that was all down to one person in that job (and as it turned out, doing it in addition to her "real" job just because she thought it was the right thing to do). The company gets into financial trouble, she gets laid off, suddenly nobody gets any customer service at all. And now the company is out of business.
> 
> ...


I think this is a pretty accurate assessment.

The other nuance is many micro watch brands are simply distributors of contract manufactured products. The "brand" can be as small as a single person who places the order with the remote factory and mails out the watches as orders are received. Fullswing is a major player in this area.

Also, in many cases, the "brand" you buy from never even opens the box to look at your watch prior to shipping it to you. The actual manufacturer (i.e. Fullswing) assembles the watch, boxes it with all your branded materials and accessories, and the next person to see the watch is you (the consumer).

The ability for the "brand" to support the consumer is limited by their relationship with their factory. As brought up earlier, you could easily be stuck with a watch where replacement case parts are simply no longer available (CREPAS, I'm thinking of you!).

I give credit to any micro brand who actually sources the individual components and assembles the watch locally. Ginault claims to do this. OWC does this. MKii claims to do this on their "benchmade" models, and I'm certain there are a number more who do this I am forgetting. This is a level of commitment that elevates these brands in the micro community in my opinion.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

badgerracer said:


> Not my pics, but taken with permission. It looks like someone on the Facebook group got their No-Date GSL Ceramic ORII delivered
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That watch is just drilled lugs away from being one of the best mil-sub homages I've seen.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

One of? What do you think compares to this out of curiosity?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Axinnon said:


> One of? What do you think compares to this out of curiosity?


As much as I dislike the MKii business practice of forever long deposits and wait times, I think their "Fulcrum" mil-sub homage looked pretty decent back in the day. It had a bit of a different, almost tactical, take on the design when compared to the Ginault, offering a bead blasted finish, a flat (not gloss) bezel insert, anti-mag shielding for the movement, and HEV, but I still think it looked the business.

That said, the Fulcrum was nearly $2K (nearly twice the OR price point and only offered without a bracelet) when it was released 5 years ago and it seems like Bill made only a handful of them.

At this point in my watch collecting, if Mkii somehow released another batch of Fulcrum watches (and without obnoxious wait times), I'd probably be more interested in a used Pelagos for similar money.

If nothing else, being compared to the $2K / unobtainable Mkii Fulcrum in my mind puts the Ginault (at half the price and ready for nearly immediate delivery) in pretty good company.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Axinnon said:


> One of? What do you think compares to this out of curiosity?


Check their "Style M": http://www.tiger-concept.com/55130P-vintage-lume-watch.html

A completely different level, of course, but really nice watches for the money. I'm even considering their COMEX homage...


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

O.k I delete my messages


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> Check their "Style M": http://www.tiger-concept.com/55130P-vintage-lume-watch.html
> 
> A completely different level, of course, but really nice watches for the money. I'm even considering their COMEX homage...


Their big crown subs look fun! (Note too self: don't buy one)

Shame the explorer homage isn't 36mm


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

adzman808 said:


> Their big crown subs look fun! (Note too self: don't buy one)
> 
> Shame the explorer homage isn't 36mm


I've got one, Bond-spec with only two lines of text, no minute markers at all and white triangle. It's a really nice watch for that price! (I don't have the millions required for the real McCoy).

Their 1016 homage looks like an old Air King size as it's just a bit more than 34mm. But I have a Black Bay 36 so my thirst for a good Rolex Explorer is quenched by now...


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

mrmorfo said:


> I've got one, Bond-spec with only two lines of text, no minute markers at all and white triangle. It's a really nice watch for that price! (I don't have the millions required for the real McCoy).
> 
> Their 1016 homage looks like an old Air King size as it's just a bit more than 34mm. But I have a Black Bay 36 so my thirst for a good Rolex Explorer is quenched by now...


I scratched my 6538 itch with a MKii Kingston several years ago to stop me getting the original black bay (a decision i've never regretted)

An explorer homage is on the too do list, I had a 40mm everest (the plexi one) but it was just a bit big... I suspect the armada 36 gilt one has my attention, but it's perhaps a bit expensive for what it is.. the latest 36mm everest seems quite nice, but I'm not feeling the lust for it..

I managed to go 5 years without buying a watch! #proudofmyself then I relented with a schwarz etienne Olympia (to scratch my never gonna happen daytona dream) but this year the madness came back strong and I've bought (and flipped) 3 watches so it's time to exercise some restraint

The older I get (and I'm not a young man) the more i take pleasure at the microbrand end of the hobby rather than the big name brands


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> The one you owned isn't going to be any better than the typical Shark Diver for whatever reason. Considering your bias and past hypocrisies, it's fair to throw your assessment out the window.


Since you've never handled that exact one you'll never know. Ad hominem argument on your part. I don't put any stock in your rebuttals since they lack facts or civility.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm no expert on the Helson SD40, but looking at on-line reviews I would have a hard time comparing to two and declaring one the "better" watch. They look like remarkably different watch designs with minimal points of comparison. If I were looking for a mil sub homage, I would not consider the SD40 and if I were looking for a blocky "tool diver", I would likely not consider the Ginault OR.
> 
> The SD40 appears to have a much more industrial, blocky, aspect to it with slab sides, box-like crown guards, and a brushed finish. While the case is certainly more original in design (although the SD40 design is simply a downsize of that ubiquitous 2,000m case used by seemingly every micro over the past 10 years) than the Ginault OR, it appears much less refined in machining or polish.
> 
> ...


All great points. Sad that Peter left. He was wonderful to work with and yes I've heard that they've suffered since his departure. Mine was a 2014 model. I'm not saying anything negative as to the quality of the OR. Mine is a comparison in a silo only.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> Since you've never handled that exact one you'll never know. Ad hominem argument on your part. I don't put any stock in your rebuttals since they lack facts or civility.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't need to see it to understand common sense. They wouldn't make one particular watch on a model line up some how more quality like than others. If others seen the model first hand and say it's nothing special relative to Ginault, you stating your piece is particularly better is hilariously baffling.

That's like in an alternate universe where you weren't a lying hypocrite, and was factually correct in me stating Tisell was better than Rolex, caught me writing that "my particular Tisell is better than the Submariner! You haven't handled my particular model". Sounds funny, right?

You also shouldn't talk about facts, as it's a fact you purchased replicas and have ulterior motives when it comes to Ginault which turned into a fireworks display of hypocrisy and dishonesty.

What should posters reading believe? That Helson made one particular model out of many, many watches in a line up suddenly greater than Ginault but the rest generally sub par? Or that the anti-Ginault replica purchaser who tried to hide it but came out looking like a sore hypocrite is lying some more to smear Ginault? Hmm.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> I don't need to see it to understand common sense.


So you don't want an objective perspective. That's all that matters. Any words after this first sentence of yours fall on deaf ears.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Dec1968 said:


> So you don't want an objective perspective. That's all that matters. Any words after this first sentence of yours fall on deaf ears.


Wow, blatant ad hominem.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Dec1968 said:


> So you don't want an objective perspective. That's all that matters. Any words after this first sentence of yours fall on deaf ears.


An objective perspective? From you? LOL


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Quantumleap said:


> Wow, blatant ad hominem.


This guy has been attacking me and creating his own lies about me and I do my best to pretty much ignore him. He's not worth my time, but once in a while I feel the need to put things in perspective - and any time I post here, there he is to add his two cents.

If you read any of his history, you'll see how pathetic he really can be in how he treats people, not just me. It's very sad, to be honest. Feel free to go read his history - he loves to attack anyone who disagrees with him.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Axinnon said:


> An objective perspective? From you? LOL


If you've never handled the watch I owned, your opinion is worthless to be a voice regarding any comparisons.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> So you don't want an objective perspective. That's all that matters. Any words after this first sentence of yours fall on deaf ears.


You want an objective perspective?

The only reason you keep chiming in on Ginault threads is because you want attention. Just get over yourself. No one puts an ounce of weight behind your opinions at this point anyway.

Please just move on.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Seems to me, your best option is then to stop talking. Seems like the fight here is just not benefitting anyone.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Guys, this Invicta homage I purchased is actually better than the Rolex it emulates! Sure most of them suck in comparison, but MINE is really that good! You can't criticize my opinion cause you never seen my OBJECTIVE point of view with my own watch by the way. 

Sent from my LM-V350 using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> objective perspective.


Yeah right. That would be a first.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Shouldn’t the mods step in at this point? This thread is turning into a personal feud. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

From FB group


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

hkhan.001 said:


> Shouldn't the mods step in at this point? This thread is turning into a personal feud.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They did, not long ago, to tell everyone to stay on topic. Sadly, this fella keeps orbiting around this thread and eventually comes back with his nonsense. He's our own kind of town fool. I have him on ignore because ultimately he's just an annoyance and not much more.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> From FB group


There's my order. Looks fantastic!

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> There's my order. Looks fantastic!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I'm getting this same set up as well. I really can't wait.


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## DEV.Woulf (Jul 29, 2012)

Axinnon said:


>


It's a full-on MilSub homage now and less like the modern Sub. That is a good thing! But why keep the brandless clasp? It does look naked. Wouldn't the Ginault logo look proper on there? I don't get it. :think:


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Devarika Woulf said:


> It's a full-on MilSub homage now and less like the modern Sub. That is a good thing! But why keep the brandless clasp? It does look naked. Wouldn't the Ginault logo look proper on there? I don't get it. :think:


It would be but they cant do it unfortunately, it would be some kind of copyright infringement against Rolex.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Anybody receiving shipping email for the OR2 ?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> Anybody receiving shipping email for the OR2 ?


For me, not yet, but I was told that mine will ship out this coming week, or the week after!!!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> You want an objective perspective?
> 
> The only reason you keep chiming in on Ginault threads is because you want attention. Just get over yourself. No one puts an ounce of weight behind your opinions at this point anyway.
> 
> Please just move on.


I'll stay, but thanks for sharing your opinion and attempts to tell me what to do. Don't care one iota about what you think of me. It's a public forum. Deal with it.

And no I don't want or need attention from you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

hkhan.001 said:


> Shouldn't the mods step in at this point? This thread is turning into a personal feud.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Couldn't agree more. Attempting to move on is difficult when these guys continue their personal vendettas. So be it. It just shows their character. $100 says all of them would wither in a public meeting and never have the courage to say these not so nice things to my face. All I'm trying to do is enjoy these forums.

Time to let it go, fellas. You had your fun.


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)

drttown said:


> For me, not yet, but I was told that mine will ship out this coming week, or the week after!!!


When did place your order?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> All I'm trying to do is enjoy these forums.


So Mr. Objective, how's your forensic investigation into the murky past of Ginault going? Any response from the companies you personally went out of your way to contact about their possible involvement with Ginault? Planning on starting, and then acting like town sheriff on, any more threads that seek to question Ginault's entire legitimacy? Bought anymore counterfeit Rolexes just because "you were curious" about them?

No?

Oh that's right, you're just here for the entertainment... of trolling people in threads about a watch/company you have such a clear vendetta against.

And for clarity, I'd be happy to say these things to you face to face.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

jarlaxle said:


> So Mr. Objective, how's your forensic investigation into the murky past of Ginault going? Any response from the companies you personally went out of your way to contact about their possible involvement with Ginault? Planning on starting, and then acting like town sheriff, any more threads that seek to question Ginault's entire legitimacy? Bought anymore counterfeit Rolexes just because "you were curious" about them?
> 
> No?
> 
> ...


Maybe if you didn't speak to people whom you disagree with like a teenaged girl with so much drama we could have a civil conversation. Knowing a faction of you treat folks who don't absolutely love Ginault on this forum, I'll decline to add more content here - I know a setup when I see one. I'm sure you'll have words to add to that, so enjoy your kangaroo court.

Good on meeting. If you're ever in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, message me. I'll buy the first round. Obviously no one is going to catch a flight over a forum thread to discuss anything so trivial.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

*Stop. Feeding. The. Troll.*


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> *Stop. Feeding. The. Troll.*


^^ Don't waste your food guys.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

WastedYears said:


> *Stop. Feeding. The. Troll.*


He's now on ignore for me.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

pepcr1 said:


> When did place your order?


I believe I ordered on May 20th.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

I've had mine almost a week (OR1, with all the OR2 upgrades under the hood). I have to say two things:

1. The reviewers are right, this is one heck of an homage, and a great watch in itself; and

2. It also makes me appreciate my Glycine combat sub more! Glycine delivers similar elegance, albeit the Ginault is clearly better fit/finish and design.

Man! What an awesome watch, the OR1!

I THINK I need to get an OR2. This time without the date at all.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Duplicate, deleted.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Quantumleap said:


> I've had mine almost a week (OR1, with all the OR2 upgrades under the hood). I have to say two things:
> 
> 1. The reviewers are right, this is one heck of an homage, and a great watch in itself; and
> 
> ...


Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between an "ORI with all of the OR2 upgrades" vs just being an ORII with an aluminum insert? From my understanding the ORII really is just an ORI with some upgrades as it is very much an iterative update

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> Knowing a faction of you treat folks who don't absolutely love Ginault on this forum,


Don't you see the weariness of Ginault owners though?

Sure if someone arrives here and says

_ok look to me it doesn't matter how the actual product is, the conjecture round the back story of the Ginault brand combined with the ubiquitous nature of sub homages giving many more options to chose from means I'll pass, personally I'm surprised that everyone doesn't feel the same as I do about the whole thing, but equally I can accept that a possible dodgy history doesn't make a definite dodgy present, and I also see the ocean rover isn't a counterfeit watch._

And we've had the occasional poster like that, and they've been met with respect

But typically Ginault owners don't get that, they get the whole _your watch is an illegal $100 fake which you paid $1500 for because you're an idiot_ rhetoric, and whilst that might technically be an opinion (opinions - everyones allowed one), it's clearly an opinion designed to provoke an emotive response.

Unsurprisingly behaviour breeds behaviour, sow crap seeds grow crap plants.

This thread is full of people who've either never had a Ginault or have long since moved on from the brand, and they return again and again fighting their imaginary dragon like they're saint George or someone


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

badgerracer said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between an "ORI with all of the OR2 upgrades" vs just being an ORII with an aluminum insert? From my understanding the ORII really is just an ORI with some upgrades as it is very much an iterative update
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The sellita movement, and TBH, I am unsure what else. I am quoting what JM said to me. I am going to send him an email, and see what he details and I will relay it. I remember thinking in our conversation when he offered it, that it was more than just the movement.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

adzman808 said:


> Don't you see the weariness of Ginault owners though?
> 
> Sure if someone arrives here and says
> 
> ...


I can appreciate what you've said. I've retained my position on Ginault but refrained from commenting on it further out of respect.

Unfortunate that those who rail on me cannot do the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between an "ORI with all of the OR2 upgrades" vs just being an ORII with an aluminum insert? From my understanding the ORII really is just an ORI with some upgrades as it is very much an iterative update
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


From John himself via email...

"Appearance-wise, it remains 95% identical to the first generation. However, the second generation Rovers have gone through major internal upgrades. I highlighted the changes/upgrades in bold.

40mm pre-ceramic style case, chamfered lugs, no holes 
high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices 
beveled sword hour/minute hands, custom Ginault red-second hand

(Bolded in the email from here on down)

Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated 
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min fully graduated, lume pip at 12 o'clock
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned with a new Quattro-Coil support system for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is re-profiled with deeper, sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple layer optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist."

Hope this helps. 

Josh

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Dec1968 said:


> I can appreciate what you've said. I've retained my position on Ginault but refrained from commenting on it further out of respect.
> 
> Unfortunate that those who rail on me cannot do the same.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I almost didn't quote you as I was being generic and you're not as 'trolly' as some and you did try and take the 'its a fake company' party to a new thread

But the part of you i did quote is quite a recurrent theme here where people that have pulled no punches in their opinion sharing seem mystified that they're not treated nicely in return


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> From John himself via email...
> 
> "Appearance-wise, it remains 95% identical to the first generation. However, the second generation Rovers have gone through major internal upgrades. I highlighted the changes/upgrades in bold.
> 
> ...


I guess I was more so wondering which of the ORII upgrades his specific OR has, and at what point is it really an ORI vs an ORII. He said he has a Sellita movement, if it has the new bezel assembly and the Gen II bracelet, I would really call that an ORII. In the end it is really just semantics, either way it sounds like he has a great watch. When he mentioned an ORI with upgrades it just got me thinking about where the line between an ORI and an ORII really is when a lot of the "upgrades" can be customized away for personal preference (aluminum vs ceramic, flat AR crystal vs domed and no AR)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> I guess I was more so wondering which of the ORII upgrades his specific OR has, and at what point is it really an ORI vs an ORII. He said he has a Sellita movement, if it has the new bezel assembly and the Gen II bracelet, I would really call that an ORII. In the end it is really just semantics, either way it sounds like he has a great watch. When he mentioned an ORI with upgrades it just got me thinking about where the line between an ORI and an ORII really is when a lot of the "upgrades" can be customized away for personal preference (aluminum vs ceramic, flat AR crystal vs domed and no AR)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Gotcha. No worries.

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

My question is having ordered a “domed” crystal vs the flat, is it a real dome like my Tisell or is it the top hat that my OR1 has.....


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

For those that question why there isn't a Ginault rose/emblem on the clasp, I recall reading somewhere that they tried it but that it kept snagging or catching on clothing and the like so they ditched it. The decision definitely wasn't based on a cost saving measure or anything else, purely driven by functionality.


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

DevilDogDoc said:


> My question is having ordered a "domed" crystal vs the flat, is it a real dome like my Tisell or is it the top hat that my OR1 has.....


I've also ordered a domed sapphire on mine, but I'm having second thoughts. 
I think the domed crystal on the ORII is the same as the ORI.

After the wrist roll of the ORII No date smurf with flat AR crystal on the Ginault Facebook page, I'm thinking I'd go down that road myself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

double post


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

michelskovbo said:


> I've also ordered a domed sapphire on mine, but I'm having second thoughts.
> I think the domed crystal on the ORII is the same as the ORI.
> 
> After the wrist roll of the ORII No date smurf with flat AR crystal on the Ginault Facebook page, I'm thinking I'd go down that road myself.
> ...


Yeah, that wrist roll really gives you a feel for the watch in a way the static pictures do not. Stunning stuff, just crossing my fingers they get the blue bezel worked out to their satisfaction.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

jarlaxle said:


> Yeah, that wrist roll really gives you a feel for the watch in a way the static pictures do not. Stunning stuff, just crossing my fingers they get the blue bezel worked out to their satisfaction.


Yeah, you and me both buddy. My fingers are for the blue ceramic bezel. I don't know how long I can hold out though...

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

jhinson1 said:


> Yeah, you and me both buddy. My fingers are for the blue ceramic bezel. I don't know how long I can hold out though...
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


I hear you...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jarlaxle said:


> For those that question why there isn't a Ginault rose/emblem on the clasp, I recall reading somewhere that they tried it but that it kept snagging or catching on clothing and the like so they ditched it. The decision definitely wasn't based on a cost saving measure or anything else, purely driven by functionality.


yea John told me the same, but I'm not buying it to be honest I'm guessing its more to do with patents or copyright but could be wrong

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

jarlaxle said:


> For those that question why there isn't a Ginault rose/emblem on the clasp, I recall reading somewhere that they tried it but that it kept snagging or catching on clothing and the like so they ditched it. The decision definitely wasn't based on a cost saving measure or anything else, purely driven by functionality.


I know it's not you saying this, but I have to say that reasoning is a bit lame. I don't think any kind of emblem or branding if etched or stamped would catch on clothing.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Riddim Driven said:


> I know it's not you saying this, but I have to say that reasoning is a bit lame. I don't think any kind of emblem or branding if etched or stamped would catch on clothing.


I agree with you 100%.

Here is an example of how branding could be applied in a way that would not snag on anything. I'm not certain I want "Ginault" on there in 20 point letters, but the flower logo would be a nice touch.
(Pictures belong to YankeeExpress)








As for patent infringement, I guess Rolex would have an argument against Eterna now too.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> I agree with you 100%.
> 
> Here is an example of how branding could be applied in a way that would not snag on anything. I'm not certain I want "Ginault" on there in 20 point letters, but the flower logo would be a nice touch.
> (Pictures belong to YankeeExpress)
> ...


Interesting... Could very well be a cost issue too then.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

badgerracer said:


> I guess I was more so wondering which of the ORII upgrades his specific OR has, and at what point is it really an ORI vs an ORII. He said he has a Sellita movement, if it has the new bezel assembly and the Gen II bracelet, I would really call that an ORII. In the end it is really just semantics, either way it sounds like he has a great watch. When he mentioned an ORI with upgrades it just got me thinking about where the line between an ORI and an ORII really is when a lot of the "upgrades" can be customized away for personal preference (aluminum vs ceramic, flat AR crystal vs domed and no AR)


I had those same thoughts. My impression was that the AR coating is absent, and the bezel is aluminum, are the major differences. I am personally interested in this AR. Somewhere I read they are trying to make it affect the color less than normal ar.

Meanwhile I think JM should be answering in a couple hours.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

That’s a nice bracelet!!!


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> I'll explain and try to use small words so you'll understand.
> 
> You called the Ginault a "copycat ripoff" yet a quick look at your post history shows you recently purchased a Helson Sharkmaster 300. The Sharkmaster 300 is every bit (if not arguably more) a "copycat ripoff" of an Omega Seamaster 300 as the Ginault is to a 5 digit Sub. Purchasing one while disparaging another puts your ethical high ground position in question (ask DEC1968 about this point).
> 
> ...


Almost 200 in the reply and nothing about the real issue at hand Ginault vs NTH.

I didn't come in here to shill for NTH, I was just simply making a statement. I don't understand why people buy cheap $100 Chinese rip-off with poor quality and bad QC when you can buy legit US brand like Vail's NTH, a stand-up guy, respectable member here, a Sub homage at much better quality, better customer service and a modern better more accurate movement used.


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## skuzapo (Jan 26, 2018)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Almost 200 in the reply and nothing about the real issue at hand Ginault vs NTH.
> 
> I didn't come in here to shill for NTH, I was just simply making a statement. I don't understand why people buy cheap $100 Chinese rip-off with poor quality and bad QC when you can buy legit US brand like Vail's NTH, a stand-up guy, respectable member here, a Sub homage at much better quality, better customer service and a modern better more accurate movement used.


While I like NTH watches and dont really have any interest in Ginaults though they do seem to have a good reputation as an object regardless of the brand heritage, this immediately made me think, try to get NTH to make a change to one of their watches for you, or even sell you a different bezel to swap in. I guess if you consider getting berated about making unrealistic demands and dad jokes about being able to buy a $650 spare bezel (with a free watch to go along with it) customer service, that would be top tier.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

DevilDoc19 said:


> Almost 200 in the reply and nothing about the real issue at hand Ginault vs NTH.
> 
> I didn't come in here to shill for NTH, I was just simply making a statement. I don't understand why people buy cheap $100 Chinese rip-off with poor quality and bad QC when you can buy legit US brand like Vail's NTH, a stand-up guy, respectable member here, a Sub homage at much better quality, better customer service and a modern better more accurate movement used.


Dude, let it go. With all due respect to DocVail and his great product - it's not even in the same ballpark as the Ocean Rover. I've had three NTH Subs so far and two Ginaults - I know what I am talking about.

Fit and finish of the OR was way above the NTHs. Timekeeping was miles above the NTHs. And even if those two items were comparable, the bracelet alone makes the whole argument. With all three NTH Subs I had, I never once wore any of them for a longer period of time on the bracelet - because the bracelet just wasn't any good. The OR bracelet on the other hand I'll happily wear on the OR itself and on the Halios Seaforth. The OR clasp I combine with an Everest rubber strap and wear with the OR, the Seaforth and the Rolex Explorer. Go to the Halios thread and you'll find people buying the OR bracelet to fit to their Seaforth - at $150 a pop. If that doesn't speak to the quality of Ginault then maybe you just need to take a step back and ask yourself if you're not being a wee bit biased here.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks, WastedYears, I was wondering why he was not criticizing, but actually slandering Ginault.

Not good for his brand, you don’t win using piss and vinegar. And, if it’s really a better product for the money, you don’t go pissing on everything else.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Quantumleap said:


> Thanks, WastedYears, I was wondering why he was not criticizing, but actually slandering Ginault.
> 
> Not good for his brand, you don't win using piss and vinegar. And, if it's really a better product for the money, you don't go pissing on everything else.


It's not his brand. DocVail, the owner of NTH, has way too much class to go putting down other brands in online forums. DevilDoc19 is someone else.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

skuzapo said:


> While I like NTH watches and dont really have any interest in Ginaults though they do seem to have a good reputation as an object regardless of the brand heritage, this immediately made me think, try to get NTH to make a change to one of their watches for you, or even sell you a different bezel to swap in. I guess if you consider getting berated about making unrealistic demands and dad jokes about being able to buy a $650 spare bezel (with a free watch to go along with it) customer service, that would be top tier.


Nothing against NTH, but they are a micro in the manner as I described in my earlier post. The brand is a single owner / designer who works with overseas contract manufacturers to build watches to his specifications.

There is nothing wrong with this model, but he does no local assembly (as far as I know) and therefore no ability to swap in non standard parts. The large Chinese contract watch manufacturers (Fullswing, etc) simply do not make a lot size of one watch. They make 300 of model "A", then 300 of model "B", etc.

Regardless of people's beliefs regarding Ginault, their willingness to assemble non-standard combinations strongly suggests local watch assembly. It is the only way willingness to customize is possible (although the weakness to this model is difficulty to scale).

The irony for me is, while I previously had no opinion on the NTH brand (they weren't really even on my radar), the number of NTH supporters who post here to slam Ginault has me soured on them. I mean, when was the last time someone posted here slamming Ginault and said to buy a Silver or something instead? It seems to always be NTH. Weird.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Let me preface this by saying: This is just my recollection and opinion of the way I was responded to and I have no objective experience with any of his watches. Not to bash NTH, the owner of this company sparred with me about the way he could handle potential customers seeking information. He stated that he did not want to have to respond to potential customers that may have questions, concerns or who may just be seeking some enlightenment about his products. This all came about after I had questioned him as to why he would spend hours here responding to trivial threads but would not take 5 minutes to respond to a potential customer who would email or call him. He referred to them, if I am remembering correctly, as window shoppers and he felt like he did not want, or need to, take the time to respond to them as he felt like they would not end up buying his product. He only wanted to deal with someone who would, 100% purchase his product. Needless to say, after that exchange, I would never purchase one of his products. And, god forbid, should you disagree with him on one of his points, he will tongue lash and word bash you until you give up. Again, this is just my recollection and opinion of the way I was responded to and I have no objective experience with any of his watches so I can not attest to the quality of his product.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

badgerracer said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is the difference between an "ORI with all of the OR2 upgrades" vs just being an ORII with an aluminum insert? From my understanding the ORII really is just an ORI with some upgrades as it is very much an iterative update
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's as I thought. My OR1 is the OR2, with an aluminum bezel. JM seems to indicate that it has AR coating, but I have to double check. I don't think it has a coating. Either way, I remain thrilled with it. Honestly, I was a little worried but the watch report guy, Don Evans, is very honest, and he stood up for the quality as a 1000 watch. So, I risked it, and was rewarded. It's quality is there, and if it were a big brand, I think it would sell at even higher prices.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

The OR2 just arrived. IMO it is an awesome, high quality watch. Sorry for the picks, I have yet to remove the plastic wrap from the bracelet.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## LowIQ (Apr 3, 2019)

Like the Eames chairs.....


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> The OR2 just arrived. IMO it is an awesome, high quality watch. Sorry for the picks, I have yet to remove the plastic wrap from the bracelet


BEAUTIFUL!! enjoy it.

Question: Did you get dispatch & shipping updates or did it just arrive?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

All doubts about going smurf/no-date are gone. That's one beautiful watch!


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm definitely sticking with no date now. Too bad mine won't ship until late Nov-early Dec...


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## srs1286 (Apr 1, 2019)

^^ Same one I ordered as well. Looks top notch. 

estimating January delivery though


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

srs1286 said:


> ^^ Same one I ordered as well. Looks top notch.
> 
> estimating January delivery though


When did you pre order? It was late June for me.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> BEAUTIFUL!! enjoy it.
> 
> Question: Did you get dispatch & shipping updates or did it just arrive?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks! I received an email from Ginault stating that my order was complete, and in that email there was a USPS tracking number. The package had to be signed, I was lucky I was at home when it arrived.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> When did you pre order? It was late June for me.


May 13

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## srs1286 (Apr 1, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> When did you pre order? It was late June for me.


I just ordered last week lol.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

srs1286 said:


> I just ordered last week lol.


Ah yeah you might have to wait


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## srs1286 (Apr 1, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> Ah yeah you might have to wait


Ya he estimated January when I asked.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm gonna guess mid Jan for the June Orders. hopefully John will prove us wrong 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> I'm gonna guess mid Jan for the June Orders. hopefully John will prove us wrong
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


If srs is getting his in January by ordering last week I don't think it will be that late for June orders... I was told late Nov/early Dec for June


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> If srs is getting his in January by ordering last week I don't think it will be that late for June orders... I was told late Nov/early Dec for June


Hi Axinnon, regarding a question you asked me before, I double checked. I did receive an email from Ginault stating that my order was complete, and in that email there was a USPS tracking number.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Ntinos_H said:


> Hi Axinnon, regarding a question you asked me before, I double checked. I did receive an email from Ginault stating that my order was complete, and in that email there was a USPS tracking number.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


That was Mr Auto I believe, but I'm sure he'll be happy for the confirmation ;-)


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

Ntinos_H said:


> The OR2 just arrived. IMO it is an awesome, high quality watch. Sorry for the picks, I have yet to remove the plastic wrap from the bracelet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Flat or domed crystal?
Looks Nice !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## srs1286 (Apr 1, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> If srs is getting his in January by ordering last week I don't think it will be that late for June orders... I was told late Nov/early Dec for June












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

michelskovbo said:


> Flat or domed crystal?
> Looks Nice !
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Flat crystal, but if you observe the third photo you'll see that in reality it is a bit raised.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

So maybe the domed is a dome crystal. That raised looks like the top hat they used in the OR1. I ordered a domed one for mine but haven’t been able to see a pic of one yet with it.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> That was Mr Auto I believe, but I'm sure he'll be happy for the confirmation ;-)


Great, sorry about the mix up 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> Great, sorry about the mix up
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


No worries mate appreciate for the info.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

DevilDogDoc said:


> So maybe the domed is a dome crystal. That raised looks like the top hat they used in the OR1. I ordered a domed one for mine but haven't been able to see a pic of one yet with it.


I think that the one used on the OR1 is the domed one without AR, but I could be wrong!

My understanding was that the flat crystal with AR is standard in OR2, but an option for domed crystal without AR as in OR1.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

michelskovbo said:


> I think that the one used on the OR1 is the domed one without AR, but I could be wrong!
> 
> My understanding was that the flat crystal with AR is standard in OR2, but an option for domed crystal without AR as in OR1.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's what I mean, that crystal looks like the one on my OR1, the top hat that is. Guy said he got a flat one with AR. So that flat is the old top hat still, but with AR. I'm hoping domed means domed, like round not just raised like before.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> That's what I mean, that crystal looks like the one on my OR1, the top hat that is. Guy said he got a flat one with AR. So that flat is the old top hat still, but with AR. I'm hoping domed means domed, like round not just raised like before.


Yes, mine is the flat one with AR (seems top hat). John said that one could opt instead for a domed one without AR. I think that if you would go for that one, then you would really get a domed one.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

I don’t think the domed will be a real domed. More a boxed one. 
The flat is raised. 

I’ve change mine to the flat with AR as I think the domed not will be a true domed with lots of distortion. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

There are 2 options for the OR2. Domed (like the OR1) without AR and flat with internal AR coating. The flat crystal is slightly raised above the ceramic bezel, Its more pronounced than the flat crystal installed on the OR1.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Hmmmm. Well I emailed John just now so I hope to have a definitive answer soon.


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## michelskovbo (Jul 11, 2018)

From John:

For pictures of domed crystals, you can check out the models on our website. All the models that do not have a Cyclops were equipped with the domed crystal (no AR)

So my post above is correct. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> It's not his brand. DocVail, the owner of NTH, has way too much class to go putting down other brands in online forums. DevilDoc19 is someone else.


I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Ahh the shills. You’ve gotta love how they don’t give up.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Quantumleap said:


> Ahh the shills. You've gotta love how they don't give up.


Relentless 

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

They’re like reverse Golden Retrievers!


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


The problem with that argument is that it can be used at any price point. You say buy brand X because brand Y is too expensive. Well, there is always a brand Z which is way less expensive than brand X. There are people buying Parnis "subs" which they like very much and paid under $100 for. There's even a Chinese sub for $35 or so. So is cheaper always better? Why does Parnis not encompass most of the market? Probably because different people like different things in a watch. They have different standards for quality and specifications. Most people on this thread have made their decisions and are just waiting for their watches. It's not up to you to decide what other people's personal standards should be. For me this sort of post makes me want to NOT want to look up NTH (though for all I know, this is your purpose).

I'll wait and get my watch and enjoy that and see where that takes me.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Was there any benefit to paying in full versus a deposit?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


A watch is worth what people are willing to buy/sell it for. So if the Ginault is worth $100 I would LOVE to hear where I can buy it for $100. Heck, I'll buy 6!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

michelskovbo said:


> From John:
> 
> For pictures of domed crystals, you can check out the models on our website. All the models that do not have a Cyclops were equipped with the domed crystal (no AR)
> 
> ...


Indeed you are correct, that's what John answered me this morning.


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## DouglasI (Aug 16, 2018)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


Considering the inane ignorance and scatalogical presuppositions one can only conclude that Darwin was wrong.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Honestly, please, just ignore that absolute melt. Or even report him (and then ignore him)


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


I like NTH subs, have owned a few. And while they are nice and fairly priced for what you get, there are higher quality watches out there, at higher prices. From they way I've heard Ginault watches described, they seem to be a step up, quality-wise from NTH, and there are people who have owned both who describe them as such.

However, I have not owned a Ginault, so I really can't compare. Have you?


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

mconlonx said:


> I like NTH subs, have owned a few. And while they are nice and fairly priced for what you get, there are higher quality watches out there, at higher prices. From they way I've heard Ginault watches described, they seem to be a step up, quality-wise from NTH, and there are people who have owned both who describe them as such.
> 
> However, I have not owned a Ginault, so I really can't compare. Have you?


Wait a few minutes, I have to step out for some popcorn.

...

Okay, I'm back! Let 'er fly! LMAO


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I have no relationship to DocVail of NTH. I just like his watches, very high quality. And was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover, $100 watch, low quality and shady brand history when there are many other micros with Sub homages that is worth supporting.


It is really bad of me to be feeding the troll but honestly speaking your ignorance and misjudgment on quality needs some schooling. I agree with you Ginault as a brand has zero to even negative value. With that handicap at play, their watches are still being sold at around $800-$900 on the secondary market. And lots people are willing to pay that price, that ought to give you some good indication about the quality produced. With the level of quality Ginault is striving at, if their products are sold under a Swiss brand, the selling price would triple simply because the product is that good.

I really don't know why you kept on bringing NTH to the table. While NTH has a strong following and support, you are really comparing two Sub homages from two different leagues in terms of execution and quality. And these two brands carter to different market, different groups of people. There is really no point to shill for their products here. People who want a Ginault will buy a Ginault no matter what you think about the brand's history.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

mconlonx said:


> I like NTH subs, have owned a few. And while they are nice and fairly priced for what you get, there are higher quality watches out there, at higher prices. From they way I've heard Ginault watches described, they seem to be a step up, quality-wise from NTH, and there are people who have owned both who describe them as such.
> 
> However, I have not owned a Ginault, so I really can't compare. Have you?


When they were around $400 I think the value prop was good. Their prices have been climbing since 2017 now approaching $700 which makes me a bit hesitant. I think we are paying a hefty overhead for the AD who are selling the NTH which I don't think is a good biz model.


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Dec1968 said:


> Maybe if you didn't speak to people whom you disagree with like a teenaged girl with so much drama we could have a civil conversation. Knowing a faction of you treat folks who don't absolutely love Ginault on this forum, I'll decline to add more content here - I know a setup when I see one. I'm sure you'll have words to add to that, so enjoy your kangaroo court.
> 
> Good on meeting. If you're ever in the Dallas/Ft Worth area, message me. I'll buy the first round. Obviously no one is going to catch a flight over a forum thread to discuss anything so trivial.


Not sure if you remember having discussions over Tisell a few years back with me or not, they were always civil so I won't get involved in the drama here.

I was just wondering if you have handled a Ginault? Either OR1 or OR2? I'm also in DFW and would be willing to meet you at the local meet in Denton so you could see an OR2 in person. Not sure if it would change your opinion about the watch or company but the offer is there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

DevilDoc19 said:


> I was wondering why people would pay so much for the Ocean Rover,


Because a Ginault comes with free 24 carat troll action. Once you've had a Gino troll there's no going back to those pathetic wannabe trolls that come with the other watch brands, a Gino troll is a spectacular spectacle to behold.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Considering the OR 2 is being held to Rolex standards and quality and it's a limited edition run, people "paying so much" for one will be looked at as funny, as it will likely shoot up in price on the market after the short supply is discontinued. You won't be able to find a ceramic bezel and glide lock bracelet on a 5 digit case done on this level of quality ever again.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

Porterjrm said:


> Not sure if you remember having discussions over Tisell a few years back with me or not, they were always civil so I won't get involved in the drama here.
> 
> I was just wondering if you have handled a Ginault? Either OR1 or OR2? I'm also in DFW and would be willing to meet you at the local meet in Denton so you could see an OR2 in person. Not sure if it would change your opinion about the watch or company but the offer is there.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I owned two a Ginault models at the same time, Gold Sand Lume and a Smurf, both no date models, both OR1. Love to meet up. Send me a PM. Live near the Denton area.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> Because a Ginault comes with free 24 carat troll action. Once you've had a Gino troll there's no going back to those pathetic wannabe trolls that come with the other watch brands, a Gino troll is a spectacular spectacle to behold.


The gift that keeps on giving.....


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Now you boys play nice. I don’t want to have to call your mothers.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Has anyone tried Everest or rubber b straps on their OR? I’m curious what a rubber or leather would look. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

hkhan.001 said:


> Has anyone tried Everest or rubber b straps on their OR? I'm curious what a rubber or leather would look.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone on the Facebook group put a Monta leather on theirs and it fit well. I have a Monta leather as well and will try it out whenever my Ginault is shipped

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Someone on the Facebook group put a Monta leather on theirs and it fit well. I have a Monta leather as well and will try it out whenever my Ginault is shipped
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I am not mistaken, all the straps Everest made for Rolex 16610 would fit the Ocean Rover since the OR's midcase is a very accurate compare to the 5-digit Sub.


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## FordHammie (Nov 24, 2017)

MattG05 said:


> More pics of OR's and less of this nonsense..


Agreed...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

More pictures? Here's my 3 favorites. 
Left to right. NTH/BSH Carolina, Ginault OR2 black aluminum insert smurf lume w/ date, and one of my newest rhodium gilt dialed BSH builds with an eta 2846.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

How obvious is the prism effect with the elevated flat bevel on the flat crystal in real life? Couple of pics I've seen recently sort of shows a distracting magnification of the applied indices.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Porsche993 said:


> How obvious is the prism effect with the elevated flat bevel on the flat crystal in real life? Couple of pics I've seen recently sort of shows a distracting magnification of the applied indices.


What is this in reference to? Link to photos?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Axinnon said:


> What is this in reference to? Link to photos?


Last 2 pics in post #6234


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

Beautiful picture! For some reason this photo does more justice to the OR than some I have seen. Also, where did you get that BSH tenth anniversary edition? BSH watches are hard to find, I’m guessing it was something that was made earlier this year?


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## MattG05 (May 30, 2019)

Double post -_-


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Case machining not a touch on the Ginaults.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> It's not his brand. DocVail, the owner of NTH, *has way too much class to go putting down other brands in online forums*. DevilDoc19 is someone else.


Actually that's not true. I have read posts from DocVail talking about how he thinks Ginault making parts of the watch in the US is BS based on his "expert" understanding of the "entire" watch industry. But after this summer's expose' on Ginault we finally learned why Ginault is capable of getting these parts that surround the movement produced in the US.

Heck I have even read him speculating how Swiss movement providers like ETA and Sellita use/share parts with Chinese ETA clone parts to save on cost (and the move on to saying why his Japanese movements are way superior), and speculating brands like Omega not using well trained watchmakers to build watches, all the while propping up his Chinese factories' careful selection and rigorous training on watch technicians to build NTH watches.


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

MattG05 said:


> Beautiful picture! For some reason this photo does more justice to the OR than some I have seen. Also, where did you get that BSH tenth anniversary edition? BSH watches are hard to find, I'm guessing it was something that was made earlier this year?


I'm going to assume this was for me. There was recently a 2nd gilt dial run done for the 10th Anniversary of the BSH and they are stunning. Done in gold and rhodium.

BSH dials/watches aren't some of the best homage pieces you can find. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Fact is Rolex got very expensive. It left a void and now people and companies are trying to fill that void. Nobody I know personally can afford or bought a $9000 new Rolex Submariner in 2019.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

marinemaster said:


> Fact is Rolex got very expensive. It left a void and now people and companies are trying to fill that void. Nobody I know personally can afford or bought a $9000 new Rolex Submariner in 2019.


And many that can afford it won't spend that money. Especially when you have to go to the grey market to get one because it's impossible to get any professional series from an official authorised dealer...


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> And many that can afford it won't spend that money. Especially when you have to go to the grey market to get one because it's impossible to get any professional series from an official authorised dealer...


And maybe those who can afford a steel sports Rolex, who know a grey dealer with them in stock, maybe just don't like the current Rolex designs. Why do Ginault owners have to be frustrated Rolex buyers.


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

TheRealTC said:


> Actually that's not true. I have read posts from DocVail talking about how he thinks Ginault making parts of the watch in the US is BS based on his "expert" understanding of the "entire" watch industry. But after this summer's expose' on Ginault we finally learned why Ginault is capable of getting these parts that surround the movement produced in the US.
> 
> Heck I have even read him speculating how Swiss movement providers like ETA and Sellita use/share parts with Chinese ETA clone parts to save on cost (and the move on to saying why his Japanese movements are way superior), and speculating brands like Omega not using well trained watchmakers to build watches, all the while propping up his Chinese factories' careful selection and rigorous training on watch technicians to build NTH watches.


He has never made those statements in the contexts you claim.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> And maybe those who can afford a steel sports Rolex, who know a grey dealer with them in stock, maybe just don't like the current Rolex designs. Why do Ginault owners have to be frustrated Rolex buyers.


Definitely, I forgot to add that yes. I tick all these boxes including your very valid argument. I am not a fan of the current big box design of the maxi case, not even much of a fan of the maxi dial/hands either. To the point that while I love the new ORII and have put a deposit I sometimes have doubts about the ceramic insert. I really like the 5-digit case, classic markers/hands and aluminum bezel insert!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

mrmorfo said:


> Definitely, I forgot to add that yes. I tick all these boxes including your very valid argument. I am not a fan of the current big box design of the maxi case, not even much of a fan of the maxi dial/hands either. To the point that while I love the new ORII and have put a deposit I sometimes have doubts about the ceramic insert. I really like the 5-digit case, classic markers/hands and aluminum bezel insert!


Weighing the pros and cons I decided to pass on the ORII, and keep the ORI. When push came to shove I'm just not a fan of the ceramic bezel. The raised flat crystal isn't doing it for me either although I would have appreciated the AR treatment. Fact that the dome crystal on ORII still lacks AR sealed the deal. Not enough differences to invest $1K on another no-date sub. I'm looking forward to seeing what Ginault brings to the table when they release their new designs.


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## City74 (Apr 20, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> Fact is Rolex got very expensive. It left a void and now people and companies are trying to fill that void. Nobody I know personally can afford or bought a $9000 new Rolex Submariner in 2019.


Your hanging with the wrong crowd then

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

City74 said:


> Your hanging with the wrong crowd then
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good luck finding a new Sub at MSRP. I'll be in Vegas for work in a couple weeks. I'll be shocked if I see any stainless steel sports models available in any Rolex AD.

That said, no one should buy a Ginault as a Rolex stand in. If you really want a Rolex, you are way better off saving your money and eventually the market will correct itself (paying over MSRP is foolish) and you can get your watch.

There are dozens of very adequate watches in the $200 range if you need something to wear while you save for the Sub. The best advice is to keep your eye on the prize and save.

As said earlier, not every Ginault owner is a Rolex owner want-to-be. I bought a Ginault because it was the best sword hand milsub homage I could find. Ironically, if Ginault offered it with a Mercedes hand set, I'd have zero interest in it.


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

Porsche993 said:


> Weighing the pros and cons I decided to pass on the ORII, and keep the ORI. When push came to shove I'm just not a fan of the ceramic bezel. The raised flat crystal isn't doing it for me either although I would have appreciated the AR treatment. Fact that the dome crystal on ORII still lacks AR sealed the deal. Not enough differences to invest $1K on another no-date sub. I'm looking forward to seeing what Ginault brings to the table when they release their new designs.


I never thought I'd say that, but I'm on that boat too. I have put my deposit but now I'm still unsure of spending $800 more on a watch that I'm not 100% convinced. It's still and amazing watch and I would totally recommend it, but I really like my current aluminum OR!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

FWIW, I will also pass on the ORII. My “reasoning”:
- ceramic is more blingy
- watch looks busier due to the full indexed bezel (IMO, YMMV)
- already have the watch that started it all


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

mrmorfo said:


> I never thought I'd say that, but I'm on that boat too. I have put my deposit but now I'm still unsure of spending $800 more on a watch that I'm not 100% convinced. It's still and amazing watch and I would totally recommend it, but I really like my current aluminum OR!


If I had the OR 1 I dont think it would be worth me shelling out for the OR2. The differences (to me) are incremental.

The original holds up just as well as the new one IMO unless one really wanted a true swiss made movement (which can still be had in the original) or a ceramic bezel there's not much point in having both.

I think the original with Ginaults in house calibre will be the more sought after model over time and probably hold its value the best.

As the popular WUS saying goes: Cant go wrong either way.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Considering the OR2 is a limited run with less than 500 pieces (since people pre order with aluminum) I sincerely doubt the OR1 will be holding more value. I'm expecting the OR2 to jump in price in a year or so actually. The vast majority prefer ceramic over aluminum.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> If I had the OR 1 I dont think it would be worth me shelling out for the OR2. The differences (to me) are incremental.
> 
> The original holds up just as well as the new one IMO unless one really wanted a true swiss made movement (which can still be had in the original) or a ceramic bezel there's not much point in having both.
> 
> ...


I actually tried to buy the OR but I was too late to get any of the discounts so I decided to go for the ORII instead. I do like engraved bezels though, I mean my Steinhart ceramic bezel is just so hard to read in most different lights. The more "matte" you get with aluminum fixes that but then it's a little more susceptible to damage. It will be a while before mine gets sent out though I suspect as late as I ended up buying.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

mrmorfo said:


> Check their "Style M": http://www.tiger-concept.com/55130P-vintage-lume-watch.html
> 
> A completely different level, of course, but really nice watches for the money. I'm even considering their COMEX homage...


I just ordered that case from William for a build.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

DevilDogDoc said:


> My question is having ordered a "domed" crystal vs the flat, is it a real dome like my Tisell or is it the top hat that my OR1 has.....


I'm getting caught up so your answer may already lie in a response I haven't seen yet, but if not, you might try emailing Ginault. They're pretty good about responding.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

carbon_dragon said:


> The problem with that argument is that it can be used at any price point. You say buy brand X because brand Y is too expensive. Well, there is always a brand Z which is way less expensive than brand X. There are people buying Parnis "subs" which they like very much and paid under $100 for. There's even a Chinese sub for $35 or so. So is cheaper always better? Why does Parnis not encompass most of the market? Probably because different people like different things in a watch. They have different standards for quality and specifications. Most people on this thread have made their decisions and are just waiting for their watches. It's not up to you to decide what other people's personal standards should be. For me this sort of post makes me want to NOT want to look up NTH (though for all I know, this is your purpose).
> 
> I'll wait and get my watch and enjoy that and see where that takes me.


DocVail is actually a good guy. He spends a lot of his free time helping others in ways most folks only think about and I speak of direct experience seeing it happen for someone.

I'd say that's a better barometer of looking up NTH as a possible purchase.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

skyefalcon6 said:


> DocVail is actually a good guy. He spends a lot of his free time helping others in ways most folks only think about and I speak of direct experience seeing it happen for someone.
> 
> I'd say that's a better barometer of looking up NTH as a possible purchase.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


That's the best endorsement I've ever read. I think I will give NTH a try! (After I get my next watch, I've been waiting too long to delay it.)


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

skyefalcon6 said:


> I'm getting caught up so your answer may already lie in a response I haven't seen yet, but if not, you might try emailing Ginault. They're pretty good about responding.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I did email them and the domed crystal is the same one used in the OR1.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> I did email them and the domed crystal is the same one used in the OR1.


Sans AR treatment


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Sans AR treatment


Correct


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> If I had the OR 1 I dont think it would be worth me shelling out for the OR2. The differences (to me) are incremental.
> 
> The original holds up just as well as the new one IMO unless one really wanted a true swiss made movement (which can still be had in the original) or a ceramic bezel there's not much point in having both.
> 
> ...


I put my Smurf OR1 up FS...because I ordered an OR2...That said....if it doesn't sell, I'll still be happy as can be...mornings will be tough though...which to chose?! I'd think the OR1 will be the more "dressy"....as the fully indexed OR2 looks more "tooly"....so if I have them both...that be the way to go w/that awesome to have problem.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Double post...can't seem to understand how this keeps happening...


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## Kattywampus (Mar 4, 2018)

Is Ginault still around? Did they survive the fake Submariner history controversy?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Kattywampus said:


> Is Ginault still around? Did they survive the fake Submariner history controversy?


Yep

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

LARufCTR said:


> I put my Smurf OR1 up FS...because I ordered an OR2...That said....if it doesn't sell, I'll still be happy as can be...mornings will be tough though...which to chose?! I'd think the OR1 will be the more "dressy"....as the fully indexed OR2 looks more "tooly"....so if I have them both...that be the way to go w/that awesome to have problem.


Aluminum seems a lot more tooly than ceramic... ceramic seems more dressy but maybe that's just me


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> I put my Smurf OR1 up FS...because I ordered an OR2...That said....if it doesn't sell, I'll still be happy as can be...mornings will be tough though...which to chose?! I'd think the OR1 will be the more "dressy"....as the fully indexed OR2 looks more "tooly"....so if I have them both...that be the way to go w/that awesome to have problem.


I think both the OR1 and OR2 look dressy enough....or both can be casual. Depends how you are dressing. The original has that classic look. The new one looks terrific and has a current look with that ceramic insert.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Has anyone handled the OR2 bracelet and can speak of the differences from OR1? 


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

hkhan.001 said:


> Has anyone handled the OR2 bracelet and can speak of the differences from OR1?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would also like to hear how both (old and new) bracelets (and clasps) compare to each other.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

As a current owner of both a ceramic sub and a pre ceramic sea dweller, I watched the developed of the Ginault Ocean Rover line over the past few years with interest. 

This latest iteration looks like the perfect marriage of all things ceramic and pre ceramic so last week i decided to take the plunge and I reached out to John and have now gotten involved the ORII pre-order.

I'm on the fence regards the cermaic bezel, it does look amazing but overall I have always preferred the look of aluminum bezels, they just look correct, especially for the period of this 5 digit sub case. 

I was hoping that as more people have probably begun to receive their watches that we'd start to see more images online and the rest of us could drool and mull over whether we've made the correct decision regards bezel and crystal choice.

Everytime I look at the thread it still appears to be like the wild west, and I understand why, but still it would be nice to see some new images and maybe a review of the ORII from one of the new owners.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

woodruffm said:


> As a current owner of both a ceramic sub and a pre ceramic sea dweller, I watched the developed of the Ginault Ocean Rover line over the past few years with interest.
> 
> This latest iteration looks like the perfect marriage of all things ceramic and pre ceramic so last week i decided to take the plunge and I reached out to John and have now gotten involved the ORII pre-order.
> 
> ...


Review here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-river-2-201875-picture-review-5062733.html


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

WastedYears said:


> Review here:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f67/ginault-ocean-river-2-201875-picture-review-5062733.html


Thank you for the heads up, much appreciated ;-)


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

That’s a honeymoon period review. 


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

hkhan.001 said:


> That's a honeymoon period review.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 True but I think he had the OR1 & he has a sub to compare it to

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

http://imgur.com/POYZcwj


herte's a photo album of various configurations of the ceramic OR i've seen over the internet


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Axinnon said:


> http://imgur.com/POYZcwj
> 
> 
> herte's a photo album of various configurations of the ceramic OR i've seen over the internet


Saved the best for last... that wrist roll is just


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I've got to be honest, when I put that collage together... I really really hate the gold sand lume with the ceramic bezel. Complete mismatch IMO. The white indicies/blue smurf lume is amazing looking though.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> I've got to be honest, when I put that collage together... I really really hate the gold sand lume with the ceramic bezel. Complete mismatch IMO. The white indicies/blue smurf lume is amazing looking though.


Great job with the collage mate. Agree with the lume I dont think GS lume works well with ceramic.

Is it me or does the ceramic bezel look smaller than the aluminium?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> Great job with the collage mate. Agree with the lume I dont think GS lume works well with ceramic.
> 
> Is it me or does the ceramic bezel look smaller than the aluminium?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks man, and honestly I actually have the opposite impression.... in the photo with both the 1 and 2 together the ceramic bezel looks bigger to me actually...


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Woops. Correct watch for the save.


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## Blackdog (Apr 27, 2007)

A question to the owners of the no-date versions of the OR: do they have the corrected key-less or do they still have the phantom crown position between manual winding and time setting ?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Blackdog said:


> A question to the owners of the no-date versions of the OR: do they have the corrected key-less or do they still have the phantom crown position between manual winding and time setting ?


My OR v1 no date has the correct keyless.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I don't know what "keyless" means, but my OR v1 no-date does have an extra crown position between the winding position and the time-setting position.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Avo said:


> I don't know what "keyless" means, but my OR v1 no-date does have an extra crown position between the winding position and the time-setting position.


I think the question refers to whether you feel a phantom date change as you advance the hour hand around the dial.

On my ORv1, when I advance the hour hand around the dial, I feel / sense no click of advancing date.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Blackdog said:


> A question to the owners of the no-date versions of the OR: do they have the corrected key-less or do they still have the phantom crown position between manual winding and time setting ?


Mine has a phantom position on the crown on the OR1


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## srs1286 (Apr 1, 2019)

The ORii will have a phantom date position as well. 


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Axinnon said:


> I've got to be honest, when I put that collage together... I really really hate the gold sand lume with the ceramic bezel. Complete mismatch IMO. The white indicies/blue smurf lume is amazing looking though.


I agree, it doesn't work with your ceramic bezel, but I think the problem is the bezel marking color. I think it doesn't go well with ceramic and aluminum bezels that have platinum colored markings, you need the gold. Here's my aluminum with gold.









What do you think now? Is it the material, or the color? Not trolling, just trying to figure out if I am the only person with this opinion.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Quantumleap said:


> I agree, it doesn't work with your ceramic bezel, but I think the problem is the bezel marking color. I think it doesn't go well with ceramic and aluminum bezels that have platinum colored markings, you need the gold. Here's my aluminum with gold.
> 
> View attachment 14620149
> 
> ...


I agree completely, that even on aluminum the silver bezel markings don't mix well with the GSL. I ordered my ORII with the red and gold aluminum bezel as I thought the gold matched the lume well and the red matched the seconds hand well.

If I was to have a Ginault as my only watch though I would have gone with the smurf and ceramic layout as it is also pretty cohesive and goes with everything. It is the smart but boring choice IMO

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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I don't think you're trolling nor are you the only one with this opinion. I'm in complete agreement with you; the only reason it doesn't work is cause of the difference in color between the bezel markers and dial markers. I was initially planning on going with GSL and the gold/blue bezel as well but changed my mind. But it still works very well there. There's nothing wrong with GSL on its own, its just how it's paired up that's the issue.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Quantumleap said:


> I agree, it doesn't work with your ceramic bezel, but I think the problem is the bezel marking color. I think it doesn't go well with ceramic and aluminum bezels that have platinum colored markings, you need the gold. Here's my aluminum with gold.
> 
> View attachment 14620149
> 
> ...


Cant argue with that! Looks much better IMO with the gold markings.

smurf lume black bezel is definitely the safe choice but there's no denying it looks stunning.

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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Mail day


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## AMargerison (Nov 16, 2017)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Mail day


Hadn't seen one on a jubilee before, v nice!

Latest pic of mine 

Huh...anyone think this'd work with a sunburst dial?









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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Mail day


Loving the jubilee!


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Mail day


Which bracelet is that?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Dec1968 said:


> Which bracelet is that?


Yes X2. Which bracelet is that and how is the quality?


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I will take the liberty to reply for PixlPutterMan, seeing as until recently the OR he pictured was part of my collection and I asked him the exact same question via PM.

He told me it's a generic bracelet that fits the Seiko Alpinist. After some googling I surmise that it may be the Strapcode Angus Jubilee, or J Louis as they are now calling it.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Dec1968 said:


> Which bracelet is that?





drttown said:


> Yes X2. Which bracelet is that and how is the quality?





WastedYears said:


> I will take the liberty to reply for PixlPutterMan, seeing as until recently the OR he pictured was part of my collection and I asked him the exact same question via PM.
> 
> He told me it's a generic bracelet that fits the Seiko Alpinist. After some googling I surmise that it may be the Strapcode Angus Jubilee, or J Louis as they are now calling it.


It actually if off of a Parnis, fits perfect.

The bracelet isnt half bad but the clasp stinks....its just fold over push button.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

I don’t think an Alpinist bracelet would fit the OR as the Alpinist is chunkier case, however the OR bracelet fits the Alpinist perfectly. (Leaves the sides of case slightly exposed as the end link is not as chunky as the case but looks good) 


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

AMargerison said:


> Hadn't seen one on a jubilee before, v nice!
> 
> Latest pic of mine
> 
> ...


I love how the 12-3-6-9 markers are higher polish finish than the rest.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

For some reason the ceramic makes the bezel look bigger... which is a good thing for my personal tastes IMO


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Axinnon said:


> View attachment 14626139
> 
> 
> For some reason the ceramic makes the bezel look bigger... which is a good thing for my personal tastes IMO


I would agree that the bezel looks larger, but the extra visual size seems to come in the inner diameter not the outer diameter of the bezel. Aka the watch diameter looks the same and it makes the dial diameter seem to be a bit smaller. I agree that it is working for me

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

badgerracer said:


> I would agree that the bezel looks larger, but the extra visual size seems to come in the inner diameter not the outer diameter of the bezel. Aka the watch diameter looks the same and it makes the dial diameter seem to be a bit smaller. I agree that it is working for me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmm dial size seems the same to me... the bezel from one side to the other seems bigger to me due to the ceramic. That's just me though. Either way, can't wait for the email.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Are you guys receiving shipping notifications ?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

marinemaster said:


> Are you guys receiving shipping notifications ?


No not yet.

When did you order yours?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

So far the people in the Facebook group who have gotten tracking info and/or delivery have all placed their order in early to mid May. 

My guess is that there were a bunch of people who signed up in the first week or two after the ORII was announced, and then orders were more gradual after that. I have a feeling Ginault will be caught up with that first big wave for a few weeks at least 


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I hope that's the case... I ordered late June and really can't stand the wait


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

I received this email on November 7th in response to inquiring about placing a new pre order:


“We have shipped out a few OR2s last week for the early May pre-orders, 1st through 3rd. We are now working on pre-orders from the 5th to the 20th. We will then work our way down the list to rest of the May's orders, then June's, July's so on and so forth. And through this process, I freed up some unclaimed slots”

I placed my first pre order on May 17th and was told on November 10th that I should be expecting my watch to be shipped out in about 2weeks. 


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Same here


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Quantumleap said:


> That's the best endorsement I've ever read. I think I will give NTH a try! (After I get my next watch, I've been waiting too long to delay it.)


Don't trust everything you read without doing independent verification. I have read many occasions he would slide in a snarky comment here and there about other microbrands. The most recent example being this. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/mant...ghts-watch-please-5070999-2.html#post50308411
The guy doesn't like competition. And when you rebuttal he will tongue lash you in wall of text format til you give up.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

TheRealTC said:


> Don't trust everything you read without doing independent verification. I have read many occasions he would slide in a snarky comment here and there about other microbrands. The most recent example being this.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/mant...ghts-watch-please-5070999-2.html#post50308411
> The guy doesn't like competition. And when you rebuttal he will tongue lash you in wall of text format til you give up.


You are 100% correct in your assessment. I am glad that I am not the only one that feels that same way about him! I was on the receiving end of one of his "tongue lashings" when I disagreed with something that he said. But, back to the Ginault, mine should be here soon; to go nicely with my current OR.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Just received my invoice from John for the final payment. Anyone else that ordered in June get theirs??


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

TheRealTC said:


> Don't trust everything you read without doing independent verification. I have read many occasions he would slide in a snarky comment here and there about other microbrands. The most recent example being this.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/mant...ghts-watch-please-5070999-2.html#post50308411
> The guy doesn't like competition. And when you rebuttal he will tongue lash you in wall of text format til you give up.


Yeah, I subsequently noticed comments elsewhere. But, thanks for alerting me! They do have some nice looking watches though!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Just received my invoice from John for the final payment. Anyone else that ordered in June get theirs??
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I placed my deposit on May 20th and just received my invoice/shipment notice; however I was out of town last week and asked for Ginault to wait 10 days before shipping.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Just received my invoice from John for the final payment. Anyone else that ordered in June get theirs??
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Congrats! - which estimated shipping date has been communicated to you from Ginault?


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## 92gli (Nov 18, 2011)

TheRealTC said:


> Don't trust everything you read without doing independent verification. I have read many occasions he would slide in a snarky comment here and there about other microbrands. The most recent example being this.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/mant...ghts-watch-please-5070999-2.html#post50308411
> The guy doesn't like competition. And when you rebuttal he will tongue lash you in wall of text format til you give up.


Yep. Doesn't like competition yet he teaches people how to do the microbrand business and compete against him.:roll:
It's funny how you just came out of the woodwork recently and have so much to say about the guy.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Shizmosis said:


> Congrats! - which estimated shipping date has been communicated to you from Ginault?


Thanks. I dont have one yet it was just the invoice that was sent. I'll keep you posted.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Finally got the bracelet off...do I miss it?...yeah, its awesome....only bracelet I've ever been able to wear. But boy is it nice to shed that weight. I simply love perlon....plus the OR1 looks great with almost anything. I think I'm going to try a black suede as its almost "winter"....I think that'd be nice. Love this Smurf cyclops....its wicked!!!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Nice perlon! I couldn’t get the bracelet off to save my life.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Shizmosis said:


> Congrats! - which estimated shipping date has been communicated to you from Ginault?


Just received a message saying my package just arrived London. So im guessing it'll be with me at some point this week.

Wasn't expecting it so soon to be honest.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

A couple gen1 shots for you. It's really gen 2, without the bezel.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

This Horus strap is so comfortable


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Nice perlon! I couldn't get the bracelet off to save my life.


2x post...sorry


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Nice perlon! I couldn't get the bracelet off to save my life.


I asked John and he said he uses the screwdriver that comes in the kit....that motivated me to get my $40 spring bar tool, some packing tape and give it another go. Honestly the OR is so sharp I'm surprised I didn't end up in Urgent Care just from holding it so hard...LOL....

I doubt the bracelet will go back on anytime soon. I have too many straps I want to try...I do wish they had added drilled lugs...would make life a little easier....


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Nice perlon! I couldn't get the bracelet off to save my life.


I bought some cheap springbar tweezers off eBay for this. They've yet to arrive but I'm hopeful that they'll make it easier.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

I finally got it off, screwdrivers were the trick.







Bonetto Cinturino


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

...made my final payment and I should get a shipping notice today or tomorrow; anxiously awaiting it's arrival!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

TheRealTC said:


> Don't trust everything you read without doing independent verification. I have read many occasions he would slide in a snarky comment here and there about other microbrands. The most recent example being this.
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f74/mant...ghts-watch-please-5070999-2.html#post50308411
> The guy doesn't like competition. And when you rebuttal he will tongue lash you in wall of text format til you give up.


Um... in that particular example, he's merely confirming what someone else said about one microbrand being very close in design aspects to another... Is he dissing Manta or hyping Meccaniche Veneziane?

In F71 he unabashedly hyped the new release by Ardor & Forge... which owner gained insite at one of Doc's Microbrand U courses. The crass among us might suggest he's shilling his course, I suppose.

He's been effusive in his admiration of Direnzo watches, among others, and encouraged exploration of other brands' designs in the thread he started, "Best Design for Buck?"

But he is opinionated, and not afraid to share those opinions, or confront people when he thinks they are wrong and/or misinformed. That may turn some off, for sure, and sometimes I do recognize that he goes a little overboard with his WOTs.

At least he participates. Which is more than can be said for the owner of Ginault...?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

mconlonx said:


> Um... in that particular example, he's merely confirming what someone else said about one microbrand being very close in design aspects to another... Is he dissing Manta or hyping Meccaniche Veneziane?
> 
> In F71 he unabashedly hyped the new release by Ardor & Forge... which owner gained insite at one of Doc's Microbrand U courses. The crass among us might suggest he's shilling his course, I suppose.
> 
> ...


Very well said and points taken. However, Ginault's customer service has been top notch, at least for me; I suppose that they are spending their time building watches and responding to customer/potential customer emails, questions and general product requests instead of posting diatribes on a watch forum(the diatribe comment was not meant for you or in regards to your post).


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Um... in that particular example, he's merely confirming what someone else said about one microbrand being very close in design aspects to another... Is he dissing Manta or hyping Meccaniche Veneziane?


He did indeed dis Manta (IMO) by adding a snarky "Ya think?" to his "confirmation" of design similarity to MV. I found this rather disingenuous (and said so) since many of his "sub" designs (his designation) are VERY close to well-known brands (e.g. Tudor).


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

drttown said:


> Very well said and points taken. However, Ginault's customer service has been top notch, at least for me; I suppose that they are spending their time building watches and responding to customer/potential customer emails, questions and general product requests instead of posting diatribes on a watch forum(*the diatribe comment was not meant for you* or in regards to your post).


I get that the diatribe thing is not directed at me, thanks.

Have you heard that NTH customer service or communications with customers is at all sub-par? Or negatively affected by the owner's involvement in social media?

Full disclosure: I don't own a Ginault and have no plans to. I believe what people say about the quality, but the style and pricing are simply not where I'm at. I'd sooner get a Monta (or a Sinn, or a Damasko, etc.), but again, finances dictate otherwise. I've owned and sold NTH watches in the past -- Antilles and Scorpene. Currently own an Amphion Commando and am looking forward to purchasing the upcoming Scorpene Nomad, for which, the Amphion will also be flipped. I think NTH watches are a decent value and I am emphatically not comparing them to Ginault in any way, shape, or form. Just that where sub homages are concerned, I prefer the NTH for spec, design, fit, and price. I do not pine for an actual Rolex Submariner for the same reason I'm not looking to buy a Ginault -- NTH scratches my sub itch at a fraction of the price in designs I prefer. I certainly don't begrudge Ginault owners or those aspiring to Ginault ownership their preference for the design, brand, or ability to afford one. Don't think I'm being a shill, like that previous WUS member, but I do respect docvail, the NTH brand, and will argue those who misrepresent him or NTH. He has his faults, NTH subs can be criticized, but let's stick with legitimate, substantiable complaints, eh?


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## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

I would even say let's just stick to Ginault and that. I mean, we all agreed it wasn't funny when people came here to bad-mouth Ginault, so I find it equally boring that the same is done with other bands like NTH. I'm sure there are other threads to discuss that.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Avo said:


> He did indeed dis Manta (IMO) by adding a snarky "Ya think?" to his "confirmation" of design similarity to MV. I found this rather disingenuous (and said so) since many of his "sub" designs (his designation) are VERY close to well-known brands (e.g. Tudor).


*shrug*

I find the design comparison and dig legitimate, comparing the Manta design to MV.

Disingenuous? How 'bout faultiing anyone for "homage" designs from the confines of a Ginault thread...

Disclosure: He's come right out and said that the Amphion Commando I currently own is derivative of the new Tudor P01; and if you can't see the similarities between the Scorpene model I like and Sinn 857/657 models, you are blind.


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

mrmorfo said:


> I would even say let's just stick to Ginault and that. I mean, we all agreed it wasn't funny when people came here to bad-mouth Ginault, so I find it equally boring that the same is done with other bands like NTH. I'm sure there are other threads to discuss that.


Sorry, I'm done...

Curious -- on the new releases, do they come with the new style of bracelet that was rumored, with more removable links on either side of the bracelet?


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

mconlonx said:


> Disingenuous? How 'bout faultiing anyone for "homage" designs from the confines of a Ginault thread...


I don't fault ANYONE for homage designs. Rather I fault people who fault people for homage designs, especially when they themselves have their own homage designs.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Seems to me the mature thing to do, is what Ginault does. Stay out of the gossip, like a real man, and let people do as they wish. If you’re making quality and Value, you will win, either way. If you say anything about anyone, you’re a gossip. If you defend yourself, you are engaging in, and allowing yourself to be dragged down by, dirt.


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## wheelbuilder (Nov 25, 2016)

mconlonx said:


> Um... in that particular example, he's merely confirming what someone else said about one microbrand being very close in design aspects to another... Is he dissing Manta or hyping Meccaniche Veneziane?
> 
> In F71 he unabashedly hyped the new release by Ardor & Forge... which owner gained insite at one of Doc's Microbrand U courses. The crass among us might suggest he's shilling his course, I suppose.
> 
> ...


You mean "Thomas Ginault?"


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

lestorfreemon said:


> I received this email on November 7th in response to inquiring about placing a new pre order:
> 
> "We have shipped out a few OR2s last week for the early May pre-orders, 1st through 3rd. We are now working on pre-orders from the 5th to the 20th. We will then work our way down the list to rest of the May's orders, then June's, July's so on and so forth. And through this process, I freed up some unclaimed slots"
> 
> ...


Finally got my shipment notification today. They seem to be working their way down the list at a nice pace.

Will update once I receive mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Mailman just dropped this off 









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Mailman just dropped this off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Open it and post some pics! (Please)


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> Mailman just dropped this off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok.... enough with the tease... lay it on us!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

After spending the best part of 30 mins trying to get all the plastic off and resizing the bracelet was finally able to get it on wrist.

The hype is real! It's everything I imagined it to be.

Quick observations.

Pros 
- Came well packaged 
- Dial is STUNNING! 
- It's hands down the best fitting watch I've worn to date thanks to that glidelock 
- Bezel looks Fab, Super crispy bezel clicks. 
- its quiet, zero rotor noise.

Cons (if you can call them that) 
- Sits a little taller than I'm used to 
- It's got some heft to it..
- The crown unscrews and winds beautifully but is a bit stiff when trying to engage hand winding position. 
- Super stiff bezel at the moment.

Bare in mind the watch is brand new, this is my first ever diver and my daily is a hamilton khaki field 38.

Not gonna comment too much yet but cant see myself parting with this one anytime soon.

Ordered June 17th, arrived in the Uk November 21st then to me the next day, securely packaged (No VAT or Import fees. )

Say what you want about John but he makes a quality product and he stayed true to his word.

Photos aren't great. It was dark outside when I finally got round to taking pics but you get the idea.

Question: can someone enlighten me as to what the values mean in the first left column of the time sheet?

Anyway I'll share my thoughts again after the honeymoon.

Lets hope you all get yours before Christmas. 









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Question: can someone enlighten me as to what the values mean in the first left column of the time sheet?


Congrats on it arriving! I'm surprised the folks over at Ginault are already on to mid-June orders. Glad to hear they are making good progress through the backlog! Someone on the Facebook group also complained of a pretty stiff bezel action. I have had several watches loosen up after a few dozen rotations, hopefully that is the case with you.

As to your question, the values on the left represent positions, since which direction gravity is pulling the movement can affect the accuracy. Someone on another forum gave these answers as to what represents what, although I don't know enough to say if it is correct or not:
CH: dial up?
9H: 9 o'clock side "high" or up 
6H: 6 o'clock side up 
3H: 3 o'clock side up
FH: dial down? 
X: average

Not super confident on CH and FH, but you get the idea. You can use the sheet to see "it loses time in this orientation, so when it is running fast I'll leave it that way over night" and visa versa

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> After spending the best part of 30 mins trying to get all the plastic off and resizing the bracelet was finally able to get it on wrist.
> 
> The hype is real! It's everything I imagined it to be.
> 
> ...


Looks really good!

Enjoy it!

I fully understand your enjoyment. Two years ago I was having the same feeling with my ORI.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

BTW, I guess your Hamilton will see no wrist time during the next months...


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> Question: can someone enlighten me as to what the values mean in the first left column of the time sheet?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


There are 5 standard timing positions for a watch:

Dial up (CH, cadran en haute)
Dial down (CB, cadran en bas, or FH, fond en haute)
The 3 on the dial pointing up or 3 high (3H)
6 high (6H)
9 high (9H)

and the less common sixth position, 12 high (12H)

congrats on the watch and the pics are fine


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

@Mr Auto

Awesome dude! Question, how does it wear size-wize compared to your Khaki 38?


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> After spending the best part of 30 mins trying to get all the plastic off and resizing the bracelet was finally able to get it on wrist.
> 
> The hype is real! It's everything I imagined it to be.
> 
> ...


Mr Auto, I have the exact same watch, it looks great, enjoy it!!! I agree with everything that Mr Auto said. Amazing overall quality but very stiff bezel. Another thing is that the ceramic insert changes slightly color under different lighting conditions from lighter gray to dark black, which I like. I also agree with the comments on John. I emailed the guy more than 20 times requesting changes in the order (from gold sand to smurf), requesting a delivery after a particular day etc., he always replied promptly and followed through. I also think that the watch is of very high quality. Although I am not a watch aficionado, I do own a PD/IWC Ocean-500, a Panerai 111, and a Jeager le Coultre Master Chronograph, and I would not put it behind in terms of quality. It is also great to know that European members won't pay VAT. That's a saving of around 20%.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Axinnon said:


> @Mr Auto
> 
> Awesome dude! Question, how does it wear size-wize compared to your Khaki 38?


Thanks for info RE the movement. Cant complain with 0.2 daily 

OR looks slightly bigger on wrist and wears taller than the hammy as the caseback protudes slightly, but the dimensions are great and I think it fits better overall as I'm able to get the exact size with the glidelock.

Another Question: There's noticable squeeks in the bracelet (off wrist) is this normal? Anyone think its worth applying some form of lubricant or just waiting it out, see if goes away over time?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Thanks for info RE the movement. Cant complain with 0.2 daily
> 
> OR looks slightly bigger on wrist and wears taller than the hammy as the caseback protudes slightly, but the dimensions are great and I think it fits better overall as I'm able to get the exact size with the glidelock.
> 
> ...


I haven't experienced any squeaks. Have you removed all of the plastic protective film? There was a lot.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Ntinos_H said:


> I haven't experienced any squeaks. Have you removed all of the plastic protective film? There was a lot.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Yea there was haha. just had another check and its all gone but realised the squeeking is actually coming from the middle part the clasp. A little squirt of WD40 should fix it.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

I received my shipping info but all it has said, for the past two days, is status: pre-shipment!!!! I am getting anxious and my head is about to explode! In the grand scheme of things I know it is trivial, but wanted to complain anyway.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

drttown said:


> I received my shipping info but all it has said, for the past two days, is status: pre-shipment!!!! I am getting anxious and my head is about to explode! In the grand scheme of things I know it is trivial, but wanted to complain anyway.


I have been on several months long pre-orders, and I find myself relatively patient for months, but once I have that tracking number all patience goes out the window. I feel ya

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> Thanks for info RE the movement. Cant complain with 0.2 daily
> 
> OR looks slightly bigger on wrist and wears taller than the hammy as the caseback protudes slightly, but the dimensions are great and I think it fits better overall as I'm able to get the exact size with the glidelock.
> 
> ...


I recall the advice for Rolex owners with squeaky bracelets was to soak them in a small bowl of (olive?) oil overnight.

Don't use WD-40 - it's NOT a lubricant. It was developed as a rust inhibitor and over time it gums up. Will destroy things like padlocks if sprayed into the key hole to "lubricate" them... Just sayin'


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Clean your watch with soapy water. Not oil or WD40. I had a squeak from my end link. Went away on its own over time. Any slight rubbing on the metal parts will wear out over time and go away on its own. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Great watch!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Thanks for advice guys. I've not put anything on it yet so I'll leave it for the time being, see what happens. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Thought I'd post this lume shot...I took it last night @ 8:16...guess that tells you which one I've been wearing....both are good....neither is Seiko good....LOL...Seiko lume is just crazy good!....how do they do it?


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

Landed today and initial impressions are very favorable. This is the 3rd OR in my collection and I couldn't be more pleased with it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

lestorfreemon said:


> Landed today and initial impressions are very favorable. This is the 3rd OR in my collection and I couldn't be more pleased with it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Any comments on how the bracelet compares to the OR1?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Mine arrived, yesterday. I sized it and have been wearing it today.....however, the lume pip is, ever so slightly, off center and it is going to drive me crazy! The bracelet is top notch, no rattling and the links are very tight fitting and almost seamless.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

drttown said:


> Mine arrived, yesterday. I sized it and have been wearing it today.....however, the lume pip is, ever so slightly, off center and it is going to drive me crazy! The bracelet is top notch, no rattling and the links are very tight fitting and almost seamless.
> 
> View attachment 14658551
> 
> ...


Niice!

Yea it is a little off... Just checked mine and it seems to be ok.

If you can live without it for a while I'd be tempted to send it back.

@lestorfreemon yours appears to be the same...


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

So 1200 dollars for watch that the lume pip is off center?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> So 1200 dollars for watch that the lume pip is off center?


Yes, you are correct, that is exactly what I received. I am not mad about it as I know that Ginault will take care of it; I am a business owner and realize that things happen and that sometimes things slip by me, even when I personally check up on my contractors work. I sent Ginault an email asking what I need to do to get it corrected.


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

It's o.k then...but you will send it back to USA again?


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

kostantinos said:


> It's o.k then...but you will send it back to USA again?


I don't know, exactly, what they will want me to do. But, I am already in the USA, so it will not be hard to ship it back to them. Thanks for asking!


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Is the triangle off center on the insert or is the pip off center relative to the triangle? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

hkhan.001 said:


> Is the triangle off center on the insert or is the pip off center relative to the triangle?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't really know but to my naked eye, or even when I put on my glasses, it looks like the lume pip is not centered. Here is the original picture, and this is what it looks like, to me, with the overhead lighting and my naked eye:









However, here is a shot, with the same overhead lighting, but at a more direct, centered picture(and it looks pretty spot on to me):









So, I don't know if it is just an illusion from the lighting when it is on my wrist.... I could use some help!


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

In the first picture it's not centrer...in the second picture it's great


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

drttown said:


> I don't really know but to my naked eye, or even when I put on my glasses, it looks like the lume pip is not centered. Here is the original picture, and this is what it looks like, to me, with the overhead lighting and my naked eye:
> 
> View attachment 14659851
> 
> ...


It's centered. It can look off easily when the camera isn't dead-on. If you notice, it appeared to move between the two pics, and that's due to the plane of the face of the watch being at different angles from the line of sight for the camera. Trust me, you're fine.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

I am seriously wondering if I need any other watch. I could just buy a few more colors of OR and be happy. I hope they start with different color faces too, I'd love to see a blue, a yellow, and a green!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Quantumleap said:


> It's centered. It can look off easily when the camera isn't dead-on. If you notice, it appeared to move between the two pics, and that's due to the plane of the face of the watch being at different angles from the line of sight for the camera. Trust me, you're fine.


I'm just as confused...

This sounds like a very plausible explanation though but if it looks off to the eye then I would still consider returning it.

Mine looks fine by eye and in camera shots at all angles, isn't that how its supposed to be?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> I'm just as confused...
> 
> This sounds like a very plausible explanation though but if it looks off to the eye then I would still consider returning it.
> 
> ...


It's because the pip extends up from the plane of the bezel. You're going to get that no matter what. You can try the return, but I am pretty certain that's the case. Let me see if I can find that issue with another watch....


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

This one shows it in a different pip. It doesn't extend above, it is inside, yet still, it appears that the pip is slightly closer to one side than the other. It's not a ginault, it's a breitling, but it shows the same - with a "luxury" watch.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

If you have a micrometer, you might be able to literally measure the distances, that’d definitely solve the issue; and TBH, if I am wrong, I would certainly like to know.


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

Now that I am thinking about it, it'd be nice if ginault made that pip to extend to the exact sides of the triangle on the pip. It would solve the issue &#55357;&#56495; %

View attachment 14660077


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

OR1 & OR2









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Thanks for the input and help. Every time I look at it, while on my wrist, it looks like it is off to the left just a bit. However, from the straight on shot, that I posted, it looks dead center. I think it comes down to an illusion with the angle of the watch while on my wrist and the lighting.


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

drttown said:


> Thanks for the input and help. Every time I look at it, while on my wrist, it looks like it is off to the left just a bit. However, from the straight on shot, that I posted, it looks dead center. I think it comes down to an illusion with the angle of the watch while on my wrist and the lighting.


I was just about to say something similar. Think it's a trick on our eyes, because of the minute markers being longer on the right vs left side of the insert.

To my naked eye, it look dead center as the space on the right and left of the pip is the same.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

At any rate here is a family shot









And a shot of the OR 2 in natural sunlight










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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> Any comments on how the bracelet compares to the OR1?


Only difference I notice is the new bracelet has more removable links than the 1sr gen.

Quality is still top notch and feels the same on the wrist

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

lestorfreemon said:


> At any rate here is a family shot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Must be an illusion because in your group shot the lume pip looks off to the right, but when on your wrist it looked dead center(on the OR2)!


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

lestorfreemon said:


> At any rate here is a family shot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are rocking a nice set! I hope to be like you one day! I have some other "nice" watches, but my black bay and the ginault just are just truly beautiful. I think I could just wear ginaults of different colors and be happy!


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

drttown said:


> Must be an illusion because in your group shot the lume pip looks off to the right, but when on your wrist it looked dead center(on the OR2)!


Yeah it's funny how the watch looks different in person vs a picture.

Also our ability to zoom in on the picture and notice the tiniest of details that are not so readily apparent in person.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

The OR2 rocks  I am really happy with it.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

Very nice looking, indeed!


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

drttown said:


> Very nice looking, indeed!


Thanks drttown, yours also looks sweet! About the lume pip, mine also at times seems off-center. As others said, I just think it is an illusion.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)

OR1 THIS MORNING!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

It is an OR2 day for me!


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

...and a change to the OR1 for the second half of the day!


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## iceman767 (Jan 3, 2013)

The Ginault here gets 90% of my wrist time since 2017









Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Matches the sand lume


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

drttown said:


> I don't really know but to my naked eye, or even when I put on my glasses, it looks like the lume pip is not centered. Here is the original picture, and this is what it looks like, to me, with the overhead lighting and my naked eye:
> 
> View attachment 14659851
> 
> ...


Lume pip looks dead centered inside the triangle. 
I would not mess with it.
Its a beautiful watch, congrats

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I’ve read a lot about the OR1 and OR2.. 
back in November i’ve ordered the OR2 with the SW200-1, but am know having second thoughts and thinking about making a switch to their ginault 7275 (even though it’s a clone).

what do you think about the 2 movements? what do you prefer and why?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> I've read a lot about the OR1 and OR2..
> back in November i've ordered the OR2 with the SW200-1, but am know having second thoughts and thinking about making a switch to their ginault 7275 (even though it's a clone).
> 
> what do you think about the 2 movements? what do you prefer and why?


This has been discussed a few times here but the bottom line is there's not much difference between the 2. Both movements are pretty much identical (both ETA 2824 clones) both are regulated and tested for 6 weeks, both have hacking handwinding & similar power reserves. You could argue that Ginaults own movement is more accurate and might be more reliable as its produced in house, uses better parts and the watch might hold its value better on the used market later down the line with it's original movement.

The only issue I had at the time of me making the decision was servicing & maintenence. I chose the Sellita purely because I knew with certainly that its an easy fix if something goes wrong.

John says that his movement can be serviced and fixed by any watch maker who knows their way around an ETA, and the main parts can be used from a 2824. I have no reason to doubt him.

The whole movement can be swapped for a 2824 without much hassle if that's your thing...

So I suppose it all boils down to weather or not you care about having a "swiss made" movement or not.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I guess the only thing that favors the SW200-1 then is that a watchmaker will be even more impressed by a ginault when seeing a regular swiss movement instead of being confused about it being a clone due to the ginault eta clone


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I also read something about that the OR2 movement (supposedly the SW200-1, it wasn’t exactly stated) doesn’t wind as smooth as the OR1 movement..

that’s why I am asking initially


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> I guess the only thing that favors the SW200-1 then is that a watchmaker will be even more impressed by a ginault when seeing a regular swiss movement instead of being confused about it being a clone due to the ginault eta clone


He'll probably be more impressed that someone has recreated an ETA with better parts that performs to COSC standards...

Cant comment the winding comparison between the 2 but the Sellita feels fine to me, very smooth action.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> He'll probably be more impressed that someone has recreated an ETA with better parts that performs to COSC standards...
> 
> Cant comment the winding comparison between the 2 but the Sellita feels fine to me, very smooth action.


fair point! 
so basically what you're suggesting is that the ginault 7275 is the high quality option without being able to be labeled swiss made..

that's actually not easy to decide and brings me back to the beginning


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> fair point!
> so basically what you're suggesting is that the ginault 7275 is the high quality option without being able to be labeled swiss made..
> 
> that's actually not easy to decide and brings me back to the beginning


i dont know if its the higher quality option but i can say judging by Ginaults insane attention to detail, great care probably has been taken in creating and regulating it.

its too early to tell weather the Sellita is better accuracy wise in this watch. I'm seeing +/-2 daily from from mine at the moment. Those who have the OR 1 with 7275 are getting the same if not better.

The Sellita can be considered the "safer" option

1. it's a tried and true movement

2. Less potential hassle for those like me who live outside america and might have to pay to get the watch back into the UK if it needed sending off for a fix that required a specific Ginault part. (especially if this brexit thing goes tits up.)

Bottom line: You cant go wrong either way! both perform within COSC.

Close your eyes and pick with a pin if that's easier.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I have an OR1 with the Ginault movement 

If I’d had a choice, I’d have picked the SW.

A few folks on the Ginault FB group say the SW has less rotor noise, plus there’s the aforementioned servicing/parts side of things with an off the shelf SW movement

I’m not sure which grade of SW Ginault are using, but it could conceivably be as pretty to look at as the Ginault ETA clone, and if not, who cares it’s not an exhibition caseback watch 

Most common ETA movements can made to run at CSOC spec, (my ETA equipped kemmner and Steinhart and MKii managed this straight out of the box, my Davosa managed it after 10mins and beer money with my watch guy) so there’s no worries there

Ginault use a less frequently seen pinion height on their watches, so swapping out a Ginault mov’t is likely to involve more work that ‘simply’ (sic) exchanging dial and hands (which I’d personally don’t have the skills for, well I’ve never tried, but I know many of you do have these skills), so there’s some actually some disassembly to swap parts between either type of Ginault movement and your replacement.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> I have an OR1 with the Ginault movement
> 
> If I'd had a choice, I'd have picked the SW.
> 
> ...


thanks for this detailed answer! this happens to let the pendulum swing back to the SW..

have you ever thought about resell value in case Ginault gains more market appreciation in the future?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I think Ginault is happy to have people take the SW200 movement...I think its more margin on a watch for them...given the HR resources needed to make their 7275....the SW has to be a less $$ build for them....I personally don't care that much...as long as it keeps excellent time...


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I have the OR1 with the 7275. It was dead-on out of the box, but has drifted to +5 s/d over the past 2 years. I've had 2824's with similar (and also much worse) drifting.

Me, I'd go with the 7275 just because it's different. I like having my watches be as different as possible. Zillions of watches have the SW200, only one has the 7275. I don't care about resale value (I never sell), and I don't care about repair. Any serious issue is likely fixed more cheaply and permanently by swapping in a completely new movement. Or by abandoning the watch in favor of whatever new watch is latest and greatest by the time any problem arises ...


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

thediesel17 said:


> thanks for this detailed answer! this happens to let the pendulum swing back to the SW..
> 
> have you ever thought about resell value in case Ginault gains more market appreciation in the future?


Thanks, I wish I'd proof read before hitting the button, that last sentence is unreadable :roll:

Re resale, no not really, I also have a MKii Kingston (plank) and a 114060 both of which should enjoy a very healthy resale, but in my actual case both of which I've worn to hell and back so probably haven't appreciated at all... I'm planning to wear my Ginault is a similar fashion...

When it comes to watches I tend to have two ways

1) WTF have I bought this for? I don't like it at all - time to flip

2) wow, simply wow - you'll never leave my wrist and wear and tear be damned

For my €0.02 (actually worth far less)

We only have Ginault's word that their clone is completely interchangeable with a gen 2824, I mean has anyone ever tried swapping out wheels and bridges and forks between them too check? I suspect no... But a genuine SW200 is a known quantity....

IIRC* (big if) there's differences between the gear teeth between the ETA and SW (and the SW has an extra jewel) which means that all the parts aren't interchangeable between the two movements* so who's to say that some years down the line if (please not, but...) Ginault have disappeared that you can repair their clone with ETA bits**

If mine ever breaks and a Ginault repair isn't an option, then I'll (pay someone to) swap in an ETA/SW movement and fit the Ginault sized pinions

But what ifs aside...

Assuming that whatever variant of Ginault's choice of 2824 clone movement you get works and runs fine, then the difference to the watch owner will be inconsequential to the point of irrelevancy

*seriously if anyone knows if this is accurate or not please correct me

**any competent watch maker will be able to service a Ginault clone, in that they'll be able to disassemble it, clean it, re-oil it and reassemble it, but if *repair* parts are required that may be a different matter entirely...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

@adzman808 You're right in what your saying. I created a thread about this issue the day before I made the decision and a few people chimed in with some useful info including what you just mentioned

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/sellita-sw-200-vs-2824-2-clone-4977829.html


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Some anecdotal evidence here, but the only two watches I've ever had to send in for repairs both had an SW200-1 in them. One 3-y-o Oris where the automatic winding mechanism failed and had to be replaced and the other, a brand new Squale, had the crown stem break after two times winding the watch.

I'm going with the 7275 on my ORII.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I find the argument that every watchsmith can get parts for the movement and repair such, the most persuasive one. 
IF, and that’s not for sure of course, ginault closes its shop doors, one would have a hard time finding the right parts and a watchsmith capable of or willing to repair the decorated movement.

this leaves us with:
- if you want to keep the watch forever and want to make sure repairability is given at any time in the future, go with the SW200-1
- if you appreciate ginault’s efforts, value the extra mile and unique decorations, go with the 7275


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Until someone has the back off of an OR2 and takes a photo (give it time, it'll happen) we can only speculate what the Sellita that Ginault have chosen looks like...

But there's no reason that it can't look as good as the 7275


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## Quantumleap (Nov 11, 2011)




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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

Been wearing for 7 days straight, just loving the ceramic bezel.

Been timing it using WatchTracker app on my phone and keeping unbelievable time. This watch is such a winner in my book. 


















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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Let's see some blue lume on some if these new ORs.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

lestorfreemon said:


> Been wearing for 7 days straight, just loving the ceramic bezel.
> 
> Been timing it using WatchTracker app on my phone and keeping unbelievable time. This watch is such a winner in my book.
> 
> ...


Gorgeous! Congrats! Which movement did you get? Just curious...my second OR will be arriving sometime...I'm still Loving the Ginault 7275

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

bolts40 said:


> Let's see some blue lume on some if these new ORs.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great!

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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

jprangley said:


> Gorgeous! Congrats! Which movement did you get? Just curious...my second OR will be arriving sometime...I'm still Loving the Ginault 7275
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you.

I got the selitta movement. I've got two OR 1s and they're also very accurate in their own right.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

I wait Mine! The same like you....


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## pepcr1 (Apr 4, 2011)




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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

pepcr1 said:


>


This is the first OR2 no cyclops date I've seen, I like it.

Has here anyone got or waiting for the GS version?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> .


honestly, it's not easy having to wait for this beauty.

... and I'm uncertain if pictures like these support or damage my patience


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> honestly, it's not easy having to wait for this beauty.
> 
> ... and I'm uncertain if pictures like these support or damage my patience


I feel your pain...hang in there I assure you It'll be worth the wait


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

13 straight days and still loving it.










Beautiful on the outside and inside.










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## epezikpajoow (Apr 21, 2009)

I sold mine because......it felt too much like my 114060......probably the biggest compliment you could give this watch.......









Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

lestorfreemon said:


> 13 straight days and still loving it.


that's a damn beautiful watch mate, congrats


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

I love that my Ginault feels like my 114060!

I've worn the crap outta that watch and I feel bad* for the wabi its picked up.

But now I have the Ginault and it can just be my daily wearer and still offer that quality feeling.

(* by bad I actually mean proud as fk)



epezikpajoow said:


> I sold mine because......it felt too much like my 114060......probably the biggest compliment you could give this watch.......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

I just sent in a query as to my August order, and they sent me the following reply. Seems like they have things under control, for me maybe January. Just thought I'd pass this on for other people who may have ordered in August as I did.

_We have wrapped up our May's pre-order and will move down the list to June and July's for the coming weeks.

For orders placed in August, we are still about a month or more out just FYI. _


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

carbon_dragon said:


> I just sent in a query as to my August order, and they sent me the following reply. Seems like they have things under control, for me maybe January. Just thought I'd pass this on for other people who may have ordered in August as I did.
> 
> _We have wrapped up our May's pre-order and will move down the list to June and July's for the coming weeks.
> 
> For orders placed in August, we are still about a month or more out just FYI. _


Thank you for sharing.

I thought Aug./Sept. orders should be shipped in Dec. :-( I've placed my order on the 5th of Sept.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

I asked for specifics of the movements (7275 and SW200-1) and their respective benefits. Maybe interesting for all of us.
That’s what Ginault answered:


“We updated the movement equipped in the OR2 to either SW200-1 or ETA 2824-2.

In terms of performance and accuracy, based on our experience ETA 2824 (used back in the BM1 days) SW200-1, and our 7275 is all about the same. 

In terms of long term durability, both ETA 2824 and SW200-1 have a proven track record. I can't back 7275 with the same statement as it still needs time for it to gain its proven track record. All I can say now is that I wouldn't be surprised if the 7275 turns out a similar report down the road. 

That said, Swiss movements are better known and valued more by the general market. Value retention wise, I don't think you can go wrong with having a Swiss movement inside. 

There is a lot of incomplete information out there regarding movement quality, durability, and so on. If you spend enough time reading you will find almost all movement brands (ETA, Sellita, STP, Soprod, Eterna) have had their fair share of fail stories. Some say one is better than the other but the reality is, based on our past experience, they are pretty much on par with each other. The real difference is in what the brand does with the movements after receiving them. Many micro or even some major Swiss brands don't QC and regulate their movements after receiving them from the suppliers while they should have done that. 

The Swiss movements we receive will go through the same 5-position 6-week in house tuning. 

Since we are on the topic of movement, I'd like to let you know that we changed our 6-week regulation process of the movement from after encasing to prior. We then added an additional 7-12 days of testing after the movement is cased as part of the final QC to make sure everything (timing and power reserve) is within spec after cased before we ship. 

In case you are wondering, this is what we do during the 6 week regulation period for each movement. We keep the movement on a winder each week with different rotational cadence/matrix doing our best simulating different wearing habits. We then clock each movement several times during the week and conduct individualized fine-tuning/adjustment based on the output. While we are trying our best to mitigate timing variance, a variance between lab-clocked results vs real-life performance is inevitable. If the movement is within 10spd to the lab clocked result it is considered to be Elabore grade by Swiss standard. 20 spd deviance is considered standard grade and is rare with our watches.

I hope this helps.”

Sincerely

John McMurtry


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I got the same answer when I asked about the movement. I've had 3 Ginaults....2 ran awesome with no problems....1 had a problem, stopped and needed service under warranty. I think the 7275 is a very good movement and make the Ginault unique. But certainly hasn't been around for too long. I'd be fine with any of the movements. If I order a ceramic today, I'd be torn on which movement to chose.


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

Wanted to update the thread with my recent customer service experience.

I recently reached out to Ginault re: an issue that I noticed with the engravings on the bezel. To me it looked like the coating was chipping off of the engraved numbers.

If you look closely at the 50, 40 and 30 you can see some discolorations that is different from the normal engraving color.










I fired off an email to John and included the picture above. He asked for more details as to whether I had tried to clean the grooves with a sharp objects (I didn't).

He responded with the email below, which I'm sharing as I found it extremely helpful:

_*Hello Jesse,

I have seen many ceramic Submariners getting dirty and stained just from daily use as desk divers. Our hands mixed with skin oil can cause a staining effect on an IPG surface. See below picture for your reference.*_










_*When cleaning dirt or tiny foreign particles lodged inside the engraved grooves, be sure NOT to use any sharp tip to scratch the surface directly. The coated engraving surface can get damaged when scratched. To clean it, we suggest using Fun-Tak putty.

The coated engraving surface when examined under a microscope, forms a gritty surface. This means once the surface is stained, the stain will be hard to remove.

However, If what we are seeing is neither grime or stain, but flakes coming off then it is definitely a defect and needs to be checked.

Sincerely

John McMurtry*_

I happened to have some Loctite fun-tak in my junk drawer. I used it on the bezel and had great results:










I've been extremely pleased with John at Ginault's responsiveness. I've exchanged over 40 emails with him since the pre order process has started. His responses have always been thoughtful and thorough, which I really appreciate.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I've said it here before....I think part of the value in buying a Ginault is the great customer service you get...


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> This is the first OR2 no cyclops date I've seen, I like it.
> 
> Has here anyone got or waiting for the GS version?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


GSL, domed crystal no cyclops is my order...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> GSL, domed crystal no cyclops is my order...


Niice! Looking forward to seeing that one 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Me too! Order was placed Oct 13th, I hope to hear from them soon!!


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Me too! Order was placed Oct 13th, I hope to hear from them soon!!


Unless you can jump the line by someone cancelling their order with exactly the same configuration you ordered, given they told me my August order is maybe January (see my post above), October is probably a bit further than that. Course I'm not sure how many orders there are, so maybe at a certain point, once you're getting near to the end of the orders it might not matter when you ordered if production catches up.


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## drttown (Feb 11, 2015)

If I am remembering correctly, I think that one of the delays is due to the 6 week timing and regulation of the movement(I think it was 6 weeks, but I could be wrong). Before I had received mine, I inquired about some of the delays and that is what I was told.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

I definitely think that time is worthwhile. I'd rather get it accurately regulated than sooner!


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

carbon_dragon said:


> Unless you can jump the line by someone cancelling their order with exactly the same configuration you ordered, given they told me my August order is maybe January (see my post above), October is probably a bit further than that. Course I'm not sure how many orders there are, so maybe at a certain point, once you're getting near to the end of the orders it might not matter when you ordered if production catches up.


Which configuration did you order?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

missalaire said:


> Which configuration did you order?


201175/201875 black bezel w/platinum index, glowing smurf lume.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

lestorfreemon said:


> 13 straight days and still loving it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stunning! which movement is this? SW200-1 or the ETA 2824-2?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> Stunning! which movement is this? SW200-1 or the ETA 2824-2?


And show us your timing card too so we can compare it to your results.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Likely one of the best parts of owning a Smurf is that low light where the blue just pops. Its not an all night Seiko kind of lume...but the BGW9 sure is a nice color....love this piece!


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Is this the new OR2 model with the blue smurfs or OR1 ?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I've had a couple of Q's about the strap..its a simple two piece black perlon by Eulit and cuts the weight of the watch by what feels like 2/3rds.... I use the 2 piece as it lets the watch sit lower on the wrist than a nato...and the perlon is awesome because like the Ginault glidelock...it has micro adjustments....if I need them...which I do more in the summer than winter 

PS: IMHO, Eulit makes the best perlon I've been able to find. Extremely well made and durable.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

marinemaster said:


> Is this the new OR2 model with the blue smurfs or OR1 ?


Glowing Smurf is an OR1


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## alestt (Feb 19, 2011)

Nice watch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cwfmon (Aug 31, 2012)




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## GFSEA86 (Oct 28, 2013)

I would buy one of it didn’t have all that extraneous nonsense text on the dial. 


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

GFSEA86 said:


> I would buy one of it didn't have all that extraneous nonsense text on the dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not a fan of the text but wasn't a deal breaker for me.

Anyone else get thier order yet?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

double post...sorry


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

GFSEA86 said:


> I would buy one of it didn't have all that extraneous nonsense text on the dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm kinda blind w/o my glasses...so that text sometimes makes the crystal look like there's a huge smudge on it...and I've even tried to wipe it off before...LOL....the other 98% of the time, I don't even notice it. Fantastic piece and I still feel one of the best values for $$ you can strap on your wrist.....


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

GFSEA86 said:


> I would buy one of it didn't have all that extraneous nonsense text on the dial.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Felt the same way. In photos it seems the text is super obvious. In the steel, I don't notice it. It also mimics the wall of text that is on a 16610 dial. Bottom-line, though, is that it is very unobtrusive.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

What a great watch! I like it so much that I put down a deposit yesterday for the blue ceramic variant, if it ever materializes. I am an optimist by nature ... 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

carbon_dragon said:


> Unless you can jump the line by someone cancelling their order with exactly the same configuration you ordered, given they told me my August order is maybe January (see my post above), October is probably a bit further than that. Course I'm not sure how many orders there are, so maybe at a certain point, once you're getting near to the end of the orders it might not matter when you ordered if production catches up.


I hope ours (October) were near the end of their orders. When I contacted them a couple months ago, they said October would ship out around January. That seems extremely optimistic now, but delays aren't surprising for a pre-order so I'm not really disappointed. Hopefully they'll all be finished before March.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> I hope ours (October) were near the end of their orders. When I contacted them a couple months ago, they said October would ship out around January. That seems extremely optimistic now, but delays aren't surprising for a pre-order so I'm not really disappointed. Hopefully they'll all be finished before March.


I was actually wondering today how many more slots Ginault still has available. I checked this morning and the link to pre-order still works.

I try to keep my collection small and try to avoid having multiple watches from the same brand, but I have been debating picking up a no-date smurfs ceramic to accompany my red-aluminum gold sand date model that should be arriving this month (September order)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lemon328i (Apr 16, 2009)

I ordered mine in late August and it was delivered today!









Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk


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## Morgan24 (Aug 15, 2016)

Nice looking watches, and no Rolex waitlist..... ; ))


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

I guess I'm confused on exactly what an OR2 really is. I have an OR1 bought in 2017 and I haven't really been keeping up. I've heard the OR2 has a Swiss movement, but when you go on Ginault's web site all of the listed models I found spec the "in-house" movement. So are the ones listed on the web site the OR2 version? If so what's the deal with the alleged Swiss movement?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

dfwcowboy said:


> I guess I'm confused on exactly what an OR2 really is. I have an OR1 bought in 2017 and I haven't really been keeping up. I've heard the OR2 has a Swiss movement, but when you go on Ginault's web site all of the listed models I found spec the "in-house" movement. So are the ones listed on the web site the OR2 version? If so what's the deal with the alleged Swiss movement?


You need a link to see/order an OR2...and you can get them w/either a Sellita or a Ginault movement. The OR2 is supposed to be a limited run and you now have the option of a ceramic bezel that fully indexed (black and maybe someday in blue) or the standard aluminum anodized version. The bracelet is supposed to be updated as well....so I try to think of it as the ultimate evolution of a milspec...I'm sure if I missed something it will be noted...but I think those are the highlights


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## Morgan24 (Aug 15, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> You need a link to see/order an OR2...and you can get them w/either a Sellita or a Ginault movement. The OR2 is supposed to be a limited run and you now have the option of a ceramic bezel that fully indexed (black and maybe someday in blue) or the standard aluminum anodized version. The bracelet is supposed to be updated as well....so I try to think of it as the ultimate evolution of a milspec...I'm sure if I missed something it will be noted...but I think those are the highlights


AR coating, Rolex Sea-Dweller ceramic bezel... and maybe a logo on the clasp!!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Morgan24 said:


> AR coating, Rolex Sea-Dweller ceramic bezel... and maybe a logo on the clasp!!


there's no logo on the clasp unfortunately.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Morgan24 said:


> AR coating!


But only on the flat crystal, not the domed version. Deal breaker for me as the OR2 offers little extra over my OR1, especially as I'd order the Ginault movement and AL bezel


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> But only on the flat crystal, not the domed version. Deal breaker for me as the OR2 offers little extra over my OR1, especially as I'd order the Ginault movement and AL bezel


Yes, its not a huge leap....I may still get one of the no dates as getting another cyclops would be way too similar to my OR1...I love the aluminum anodized bezel...so not sure how I'd feel about the ceramic...+ its fully indexed which I think makes it a bit busy...just hard to say...it would have been cool to have drilled lugs....anyway, I haven't order an OR2 yet


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

dfwcowboy said:


> I guess I'm confused on exactly what an OR2 really is. I have an OR1 bought in 2017 and I haven't really been keeping up. I've heard the OR2 has a Swiss movement, but when you go on Ginault's web site all of the listed models I found spec the "in-house" movement. So are the ones listed on the web site the OR2 version? If so what's the deal with the alleged Swiss movement?


Some users in the Ginault fb group have reported (and proved via their supplied timing card) that their OR2 has an ETA 2824 inside. Many others came with the SW200.

I think you only get the Ginault movement if you specifically ask for it, but SW200/2824 seems to be luck of the draw.


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## Morgan24 (Aug 15, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> there's no logo on the clasp unfortunately.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I have read that it might come in the future models, but who knows...


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> Some users in the Ginault fb group have reported (and proved via their supplied timing card) that their OR2 has an ETA 2824 inside. Many others came with the SW200.
> 
> I think you only get the Ginault movement if you specifically ask for it, but SW200/2824 seems to be luck of the draw.


I'd be more interested to know which version of either you'd be getting. The Swiss movements have a few different versions at different levels of quality and associated accuracy. The attraction to me is the ability to swap out to an off the shelf high quality movement should I ever have any problems. I may be able to do this with my OR1 for all I know, but I'm not sure if I'd run into problems with how it fits. I assume their in-house is a clone of some other movement.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> Yes, its not a huge leap....I may still get one of the no dates as getting another cyclops would be way too similar to my OR1...I love the aluminum anodized bezel...so not sure how I'd feel about the ceramic...+ its fully indexed which I think makes it a bit busy...just hard to say...it would have been cool to have drilled lugs....anyway, I haven't order an OR2 yet


If you like the look of an aluminum insert I can see the attraction. From a practical standpoint I don't see them accurately reproducing a milsub down to the last detail, and even if they did I wouldn't want it. No thanks to the soldered lugs and acrylic crystal. Personally I'm happy with a version that captures the look of the milsub while still including modern design features.


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

Are you guys Paying full price for ocean rovers? Or are there still discount codes handed out? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

tynan.nida said:


> Are you guys Paying full price for ocean rovers? Or are there still discount codes handed out?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The ORII pre-orders (you have to email Ginault to get in on it) are priced at $1,039 for the no date, $1,299 for the date models

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## HayabusaRid3r1080 (Nov 2, 2013)

badgerracer said:


> The ORII pre-orders (you have to email Ginault to get in on it) are priced at $1,039 for the no date, $1,299 for the date models
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That was fast thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

dfwcowboy said:


> If you like the look of an aluminum insert I can see the attraction. From a practical standpoint I don't see them accurately reproducing a milsub down to the last detail, and even if they did I wouldn't want it. No thanks to the soldered lugs and acrylic crystal. Personally I'm happy with a version that captures the look of the milsub while still including modern design features.


Ginault has accomplished exactly what you stated...


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

LARufCTR said:


> Ginault has accomplished exactly what you stated...


I agree and that's exactly why I bought the OR1. From what I've gathered from this thread the OR2 seems to be going more in the same direction, which is fine by me.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> The ORII pre-orders (you have to email Ginault to get in on it) are priced at $1,039 for the no date, $1,299 for the date models
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the date models are $1200 total with preorder (at least that is what I paid). $400 deposit and $800 just before they sent it to me.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

carbon_dragon said:


> I think the date models are $1200 total with preorder (at least that is what I paid). $400 deposit and $800 just before they sent it to me.


You're right, that was a typo on my end. I think I was half meaning to write $1,199 and half meaning to write $1,200 and this is was the result haha

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

dfwcowboy said:


> I'd be more interested to know which version of either you'd be getting. The Swiss movements have a few different versions at different levels of quality and associated accuracy. The attraction to me is the ability to swap out to an off the shelf high quality movement should I ever have any problems. I may be able to do this with my OR1 for all I know, but I'm not sure if I'd run into problems with how it fits. I assume their in-house is a clone of some other movement.


An email to Ginault would probably clear up which mov't version you're getting

They're all arriving with Ginault's 5 (or is it 4 or 6, I forget) week calibration period and timing certification

The Ginault caliber is a 2824 clone, so you could drop in a genuine ETA, but you'd need different cannon pinions, you can order these separately (ebay or a watch parts wholesalers) as both ETA and Selita sell them as an off the shelf part, and have them fitted (or do it yourself if you've got the skills, personally I don't but you might!)


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> The Ginault caliber is a 2824 clone, so you could drop in a genuine ETA, but you'd need different cannon pinions, you can order these separately (ebay or a watch parts wholesalers) as both ETA and Selita sell them as an off the shelf part, and have them fitted (or do it yourself if you've got the skills, personally I don't but you might!)


I suspected that was the case, but I have no idea how easy it would be to substitute a genuine Swiss movement in my OR1. I wouldn't even consider it unless mine needed servicing. I wouldn't want to try it myself. I don't mind cracking the case on my cheap Russian watches, but I don't feel as confident about anything more expensive.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Ordered Sept. 7th and received the invoice for the settlement yesterday. Smurf, no date, black ceramic, 7275 movement. Can't wait to get it!


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

Just received my invoice as well. I ordered my OR2 on Sept 5 with smurf lume, date, black ceramic, Sellita movement.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

missalaire said:


> Just received my invoice as well. I ordered my OR2 on Sept 5 with smurf lume, date, black ceramic, Sellita movement.


Missalaire and WastedYears, you are both in for a treat. The OR2 looks great in pictures but even better in real life 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Eagle has landed yesterday. Sized it and been wearing it since. First impression, it is just simply amazing!


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Eagle has landed yesterday. Sized it and been wearing it since. First impression, it is just simply amazing! 
View attachment 14772543


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## 3366carlos (May 20, 2018)

Does it come in quartz solar?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

3366carlos said:


> Does it come in quartz solar?


Yes. Just send them an e-mail and they will customize it. You just need to send the funds in advance and wait about 10 years for the production, just like with other brands. ;-)


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

This kind of attention to details is awe inspiring.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the Ocean Rover 2? 

Diameter
Thickness
Lug to lug
Lug width 
Weight

The only answers I can find that seem to be universal is the diameter and lug width the rest of the results vary from site to site.

thanks 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## DiegoCastellanos (May 13, 2016)

Mr Auto said:


> Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the Ocean Rover 2?
> 
> Diameter
> Thickness
> ...


Same as a pre ceramic Sub.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the Ocean Rover 2?
> 
> Diameter
> Thickness
> ...


The form factor and dimension remains the same to the first gen OR.

It's in the OR2 pre-order invitation email which details everything. But to get the email invite you need to qualify for either being an existing customer, or their club.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> The form factor and dimension remains the same to the first gen OR.
> 
> It's in the OR2 pre-order invitation email which details everything. But to get the email invite you need to qualify for either being an existing customer, or their club.


Yep I got the emails and have the OR2. John didnt mention anything about dimensions though and I'm not familiar with the OR1 dimensions aside from case size & lug width.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

The OR2 has been on the wrist since it arrived. This watch seriously is the best of both worlds, 5 digit Sub's balance and ratio, 6 digit Sub's modern functions


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> The OR2 has been on the wrist since it arrived. This watch seriously is the best of both worlds, 5 digit Sub's balance and ratio, 6 digit Sub's modern functions
> 
> View attachment 14779613


does it feel more like a 5 digit sub or 6 digit sub quality wise?


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the Ocean Rover 2?
> 
> Diameter
> Thickness
> ...


Here's exactly what Ginault sent to me in the invitation email:

SPECIFICATIONS: 
*in bold are upgrades/changes made on the Ocean Rover 2 
40mm pre-ceramic style case, chamfered lugs, no holes (hand finished) 
high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices (hand assembled) 
beveled sword hour/minute hands, custom Ginault red-second hand 
Sellita SW200-1, 5 positions 6-week regulated (or CAL7275 by request in the note section during checkout)
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min full graduation, lume pip at 12 o'clock (if you prefer the classic look, aluminum inserts seen on our OR-1 can be mounted upon request)
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is slightly re-profiled with slightly deeper and sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple-layer, optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> Does anyone know the actual dimensions for the Ocean Rover 2?
> 
> Diameter
> Thickness
> ...


Here's exactly what Ginault sent to me in the invitation email:

SPECIFICATIONS: 
*in bold are upgrades/changes made on the Ocean Rover 2 
40mm pre-ceramic style case, chamfered lugs, no holes (hand finished) 
high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices (hand assembled) 
beveled sword hour/minute hands, custom Ginault red-second hand 
Sellita SW200-1, 5 positions 6-week regulated (or CAL7275 by request in the note section during checkout)
ceramic insert, engraved, 60min full graduation, lume pip at 12 o'clock (if you prefer the classic look, aluminum inserts seen on our OR-1 can be mounted upon request)
gen II bezel assembly, structurally redesigned for the most amazing turning and tactile feedback, the outer ring is slightly re-profiled with slightly deeper and sharper teeth for a better grip 
triple-layer, optometry grade (clear coating, no blue-hue) anti-reflective sapphire
gen II 94530G bracelet, tighter mid-link tolerance, slightly re-profiled clasp for enhanced comfort and durability, 3 x 3 permanent link design allows a perfect fit even for the slender wrist.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> does it feel more like a 5 digit sub or 6 digit sub quality wise?


Good question. The 5 digit Sub compare to the 6 digit, although still very good in quality (for how old that design was) does feel more aged and less solid to me. The 6 digit Sub feels a lot more sturdy with its overall quality, most noticeable in the bracelet and the bezel.

The OR2 still wears pretty much like a 5 digit on the wrist thanks to it's faithful rendition of the 5 digit's proportion. With that being said, the overall quality of the OR2 is more in line with the 6 digit Sub. It does give that more solid and sturdy feel, and this is becoming more evident the longer I wear the OR2.

The finishing of all the metal surface of both the OR1 and 2 is on par with the general workmanship of what Rolex put out.


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

My Ginault OR2 came in this past Friday! Really impressed and happy with the quality of this watch.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

missalaire said:


> My Ginault OR2 came in this past Friday! Really impressed and happy with the quality of this watch.
> 
> View attachment 14782133
> 
> ...


Beautiful! When did you place your order, I'm just trying to figure out where they are on the list.


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## missalaire (Oct 29, 2016)

Len1738 said:


> Beautiful! When did you place your order, I'm just trying to figure out where they are on the list.


I placed my pre-order on Sept 5.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

OK thanks! I placed mine on November 2, so it looks like i'm a couple months out!


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## JLS36 (Feb 5, 2016)

TheRealTC said:


> Eagle has landed yesterday. Sized it and been wearing it since. First impression, it is just simply amazing!
> View attachment 14772543


Man that looks really well finished

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

JLS36 said:


> Man that looks really well finished
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I was just thinking the same thing.

I didn't order an OR2 because I felt the OR1 was so well done the incremental benefits were not worth it, but dang - I'm questioning that decision now!


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## Dynamite Kid19 (May 19, 2013)

missalaire said:


> My Ginault OR2 came in this past Friday! Really impressed and happy with the quality of this watch.
> 
> View attachment 14782133
> 
> ...


How's the clasp? Expansion work really nicely? Clasp pics?

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

the level of finishing on this watch, judging by the pictures, is insane. 

to the lucky people among us that already have one:
how do you guys feel about the red seconds hand? does it set the OR2 apart from rolex pieces?

did anyone ever got asked if it was a rolex?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> the level of finishing on this watch, judging by the pictures, is insane.
> 
> to the lucky people among us that already have one:
> how do you guys feel about the red seconds hand? does it set the OR2 apart from rolex pieces?
> ...


Personally I think the sword hands seperate it from a sub. The red seconds hand is a nice touch though and looks great against that deep black dial.










Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Personally I think the sword hands seperate it from a sub. The red seconds hand is a nice touch though and looks great against that deep black dial.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


interesting view, haven't heard this before. also subs used to have sword hands a while back, but arguably not many people know about this..

nice picture mate, thanks for sharing


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## rhymanoserous (Nov 23, 2014)

How do ceramic bezels compare to aluminum bezels in terms of ease of replacement. I want to be able to throw in custom bezels like this one.


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## rhymanoserous (Nov 23, 2014)

duplicate


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

How is the quality from OR2 vs Omega seamaster ceramic? 
So worth the price the OR2?


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

rhymanoserous said:


> How do ceramic bezels compare to aluminum bezels in terms of ease of replacement. I want to be able to throw in custom bezels like this one.
> View attachment 14796645


I'm not sure a 24 hour bezel does you much good without a GMT hand. A 12 hour bezel would at least allow you to do 2 time zones. There are some watch producers with crazy numbers of variants (like Aquacy) or other with crazy amounts of customizability (like Undone). I really just wanted a really high quality ceramic bezel that would look good and resist damage (because I'm a klutz). I actually own the Steinhart GMT and it looks very like that.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

rhymanoserous said:


> How do ceramic bezels compare to aluminum bezels in terms of ease of replacement. I want to be able to throw in custom bezels like this one.
> View attachment 14796645


Someone in the Ginault Facebook group reached out to John over at Ginault about this a while back. I don't remember the exact response but it was along the lines of each time you put the ceramic bezel in there is a chance it could crack, and shouldn't be done often. You can email Ginault for a more detailed answer, but it seems as though if you are a frequent bezel swapper you would be better off getting the aluminum insert

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

rhymanoserous said:


> How do ceramic bezels compare to aluminum bezels in terms of ease of replacement. I want to be able to throw in custom bezels like this one.
> View attachment 14796645


Man if that were a 12 hour insert that would be perfect, do you just search for 5 digit sub inserts on ebay or something?


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> How is the quality from OR2 vs Omega seamaster ceramic?
> So worth the price the OR2?


I think it depends on what you are looking for in your watch. The Omega SMP is one hell of a watch. I don't think anyone in the right mind would say that the Ocean Rover 2 is "better quality"

The movement alone, inside the SMP, is not in the same class with the ETA2824-2/SW200-1 used in the OR2. The Omega brand also carries a lot more weight and prestige.

But the OR2 is no slouch either. The high-gloss enamel dial, forged applied indices, the midcase and its finish, the solid and smoothness of its new ceramic bezel assembly, and finally the bracelet, can all stand head to head with Rolex Sub and Omega SMP. (not to mention the price difference)

So if you are the type that don't care all that much about the brand/prestige nor have the need for a top level movement, but just want a solid Sub style watch with the same high quality and finish to watches sold in the 5K-9K price range, the OR2 is a no brainer.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> I think it depends on what you are looking for in your watch. The Omega SMP is one hell of a watch. I don't think anyone in the right mind would say that the Ocean Rover 2 is "better quality"
> 
> The movement alone, inside the SMP, is not in the same class with the ETA2824-2/SW200-1 used in the OR2. The Omega brand also carries a lot more weight and prestige.
> 
> ...


Also, if you like the look of a Sub, then the SMP isn't gonna be able to cut it impo


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Someone in the Ginault Facebook group reached out to John over at Ginault about this a while back. I don't remember the exact response but it was along the lines of each time you put the ceramic bezel in there is a chance it could crack, and shouldn't be done often. You can email Ginault for a more detailed answer, but it seems as though if you are a frequent bezel swapper you would be better off getting the aluminum insert
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If I recall correctly, John said this watch is not meant for frequent bezel swapping. Frequent and improper swapping can cause damage to some parts and its water proof ability may fail.


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## skyefalcon6 (Apr 10, 2015)

Ordered 14-Aug
Shipping Notification 17-Jan
Watch Arrived Today 21-Jan

201175LSICN ORII Smurf


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

skyefalcon6 said:


> Ordered 14-Aug
> Shipping Notification 17-Jan
> Watch Arrived Today 21-Jan
> 
> ...


Looking great as usual... I'm still waiting on the blue bezel. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

The new OR2 is absolutely beautiful in the flesh and I was in love with it when I received mine earlier this month. Unfortunately after less than a week on the wrist it stopped ticking. It was not dropped and I didn’t do anything more than some desk diving in the 4 days that I wore it and now John at Ginault is saying it will take 12-16 weeks for warranty service.

Anyone else here ever have to use the Ginault warranty? Does it really take that long? I’m a bit frustrated that I have to wait another 3-4 months to get my brand new watch that I had to wait 5 months to receive in the first place. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

WatchCollector01 said:


> The new OR2 is absolutely beautiful in the flesh and I was in love with it when I received mine earlier this month. Unfortunately after less than a week on the wrist it stopped ticking. It was not dropped and I didn't do anything more than some desk diving in the 4 days that I wore it and now John at Ginault is saying it will take 12-16 weeks for warranty service.
> 
> Anyone else here ever have to use the Ginault warranty? Does it really take that long? I'm a bit frustrated that I have to wait another 3-4 months to get my brand new watch that I had to wait 5 months to receive in the first place.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hmm that is quite strange. I had a cheaper drive watch with a sellita movement that crumped within a few months. The probable reason for the lengthy turn around is regulating the movement again after replacing it. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> Hmm that is quite strange. I had a cheaper drive watch with a sellita movement that crumped within a few months. The probable reason for the lengthy turn around is regulating the movement again after replacing it.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


I would imagine the lead time is not only the regulation period, but just how backed up they are with other orders right now. I think they are pretty much at capacity with making and shipping ORII's right now.

I would hope they would prioritize customer service though. Hopefully the initial estimate is overly conservative!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> I would imagine the lead time is not only the regulation period, but just how backed up they are with other orders right now. I think they are pretty much at capacity with making and shipping ORII's right now.
> 
> I would hope they would prioritize customer service though. Hopefully the initial estimate is overly conservative!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True true... I didn't think of that. Is anyone else waiting for the blue ceramic bezel?? Or am I the only one?

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

WatchCollector01 said:


> The new OR2 is absolutely beautiful in the flesh and I was in love with it when I received mine earlier this month. Unfortunately after less than a week on the wrist it stopped ticking. It was not dropped and I didn't do anything more than some desk diving in the 4 days that I wore it and now John at Ginault is saying it will take 12-16 weeks for warranty service.
> 
> Anyone else here ever have to use the Ginault warranty? Does it really take that long? I'm a bit frustrated that I have to wait another 3-4 months to get my brand new watch that I had to wait 5 months to receive in the first place.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is such a shame, did you opt for their CAL7275 or Sellita SW200


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)




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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

TheRealTC said:


> That is such a shame, did you opt for their CAL7275 or Sellita SW200


I went with the Sellita... thinking it was a reliable movement 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

WatchCollector01 said:


> I went with the Sellita... thinking it was a reliable movement
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think they prefer to put the Sellita in as its likely a less expensive movement and as such they make more margin on the watch.....but to me the 7275 makes it a Ginault....not that one movement is better than the other...just my rationale. and yes, they are backed up until the OR2 order are out....I feel for you, that's a bummer to wait....


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

FWIW, here's the numbers on my 181070LSILN almost 2 years old. Amplitude and beat error were excellent in all positions.

I was kicking around the idea of ditching this one and getting an OR2, but the in-house movement seems to be perfectly adequate for my needs, and I just don't see the need to upgrade. I think I'll just stick with my OR1 and if the movement ever gives me problems I'll stick in a genuine ETA.

CH 0
9H +6
6H +2
3H +6
FH +1
X = 3


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

it’s kind of worrying as I’ve read so many times now that people, if they ever had problems with movements, their experience routes back to a SW200-1

actually kind of surprising with regard to John’s statement:

“In terms of performance and accuracy, based on our experience ETA 2824 (used back in the BM1 days) SW200-1, and our 7275 is all about the same. 

In terms of long term durability, both ETA 2824 and SW200-1 have a proven track record. I can't back 7275 with the same statement as it still needs time for it to gain its proven track record. All I can say now is that I wouldn't be surprised if the 7275 turns out a similar report down the road. 

That said, Swiss movements are better known and valued more by the general market. Value retention wise, I don't think you can go wrong with having a Swiss movement inside. 

There is a lot of incomplete information out there regarding movement quality, durability, and so on. If you spend enough time reading you will find almost all movement brands (ETA, Sellita, STP, Soprod, Eterna) have had their fair share of fail stories. Some say one is better than the other but the reality is, based on our past experience, they are pretty much on par with each other. The real difference is in what the brand does with the movements after receiving them. Many micro or even some major Swiss brands don't QC and regulate their movements after receiving them from the suppliers while they should have done that. 

The Swiss movements we receive will go through the same 5-position 6-week in house tuning.”


----------



## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I received my ORII today. It's a beuatiful watch which looks better in person than in the pictures. The only downside is that I received it with the Sellita movement, when I specified that I wanted the 7275. Already the rotor noise is imo much louder than what it was on my old OR. Add to the fact that I have had only trouble with past SW200s and I might just contact Ginault to see if something can be done about it.

If not, I may just have the Sellita switched with an ETA at my own cost.


----------



## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

thediesel17 said:


> it's kind of worrying as I've read so many times now that people, if they ever had problems with movements, their experience routes back to a SW200-1
> 
> actually kind of surprising with regard to John's statement:
> 
> ...


At least with the one I have I'd say it compares as favorably as any other movement I've ever owned including Rolex and several other Swiss movements. The best Japanese movements I've owned are the Miyota 90 series. As with any other movement usually after a year or so any cracks in the foundation are going to show up on the timegrapher. What I'm seeing in all positions is a low beat error, low time variance, great amplitude, and no aberrations in the pallet fork. All of this tells me the movement was well made and well regulated from the beginning. As far as value down the road goes, these watches seem to be selling on the used market for not much less than new. I get that people are going to attribute more worth to a genuine Swiss movement and I feel the same way, but at least at this point I don't see any reason to doubt any of the claims about their "in-house" movement quality.


----------



## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Trying to extrapolate from a handful of posts on a watch forum to actual overall failure rates is a futile endeavor; the bias and sampling errors are far too large to reach any meaningful conclusion.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master (Mar 29, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Man if that were a 12 hour insert that would be perfect, do you just search for 5 digit sub inserts on ebay or something?


Yes, if anyone knows of a good source for a 12-hour insert that will work on the OR1, please let us know!


----------



## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

Avo said:


> Trying to extrapolate from a handful of posts on a watch forum to actual overall failure rates is a futile endeavor; the bias and sampling errors are far too large to reach any meaningful conclusion.


known and agreed. 
wasn't just referring to Ginault though, but several brands. 
sample size is still insignificantly small, but nonetheless makes me wonder about the quality of the SW200-1 in general. 
consequently to john's statement regarding the qc process, failures as such happened to several users' OR2 movements, should at least be minimized (which could actually be reflected by the affected users here, but would be considerably unlikely)


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> it's kind of worrying as I've read so many times now that people, if they ever had problems with movements, their experience routes back to a SW200-1


I honestly think you will need to read A LOT MORE before you have a statistical meaningful data to go by. For every single thread that you read about Sellita, I am sure I can find another thread talking about a failed ETA movement or a failed 3135 movement, or a failed NH35 movement.



thediesel17 said:


> actually kind of surprising with regard to John's statement:
> 
> "In terms of performance and accuracy, based on our experience ETA 2824 (used back in the BM1 days) SW200-1, and our 7275 is all about the same.
> 
> ...


My personal experience aligns with what John said there. I have had ETA 2824 that failed on me in the past, I have had issues with SW200 in the past, but I have collected enough to know, one post and one experience from one guy isn't going to change my view on how solid these movements are.

Sellita sells more than 1 million movements a year, supplying to many major and microbrands. If this issue is pandemic, the watch world would have known it by now.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Avo said:


> Trying to extrapolate from a handful of posts on a watch forum to actual overall failure rates is a futile endeavor; the bias and sampling errors are far too large to reach any meaningful conclusion.


amen, it's funny how one person had one issue on one movement, and all the sudden the SW200 is an problematic movement.....lol


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

thediesel17 said:


> known and agreed.
> wasn't just referring to Ginault though, but several brands.
> sample size is still insignificantly small, but nonetheless makes me wonder about the quality of the SW200-1 in general.
> consequently to john's statement regarding the qc process, failures as such happened to several users' OR2 movements, should at least be minimized (which could actually be reflected by the affected users here, but would be considerably unlikely)


Agreed, but this is assuming we know how many there is total, and how many failed from that total. So far we read from one guy, that experienced issue with his SW200.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

delete double post


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> mine is running at +2spd, that's pretty amazing considering that is well within COSC standard.
> 
> View attachment 14806595


So is mine. No complaints so far

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

mine is running at +2spd, that's pretty amazing considering that is well within COSC standard.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Yes, if anyone knows of a good source for a 12-hour insert that will work on the OR1, please let us know!


I just received a flat 38/30.7mm bezel insert I ordered for a different watch. When placed over my OR1 it appears to be just a tiny bit too big on the OD diameter. I think the 5 digit sub bezels are 37.65/30.7mm, which should be just about right. Hopefully someone who has done this will have a more exact answer.


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## Tonycino (Jan 9, 2013)

My order date is 9/2 and I too am waiting for the blue bezel. I did advise John that if there is no blue bezel I’d take a black one, but that I would wait a while if there’s a chance to get a blue one. I have not heard anything from Ginault since then.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Tonycino said:


> My order date is 9/2 and I too am waiting for the blue bezel. I did advise John that if there is no blue bezel I'd take a black one, but that I would wait a while if there's a chance to get a blue one. I have not heard anything from Ginault since then.


I inquired John about the blue version last week and was told the delay is still indefinite atm but they are committed to the project and with some patience it will come to fruition.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

TheRealTC said:


> I inquired John about the blue version last week and was told the delay is still indefinite atm but they are committed to the project and with some patience it will come to fruition.


Yup, John told me the same thing about a week ago. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mf12345 (Jan 24, 2020)

If anyone is selling an OR2 with ceramic bezel, PM me. Thanks


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Got my shipping notice today, should be here in a couple days. Pumped!!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Got my shipping notice today, should be here in a couple days. Pumped!!


Nice, you won't be disappointed. Which one did you go for?

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Nice, you won't be disappointed. Which one did you go for?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


GSL, date with domed crystal. Should have it tomorrow!


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> GSL, date with domed crystal. Should have it tomorrow!


Nice, post some pics once you're settled with it, we dont see the GSL date versions that often.

You've got a job on your hands getting all the protective plastic off 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> GSL, date with domed crystal. Should have it tomorrow!


Wow, you went with the domed no AR crystal, that is something i was also thinking about doing but in the end opted for the more modern look with smurf lume and flat cyclops crystal.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

TheRealTC said:


> Wow, you went with the domed no AR crystal, that is something i was also thinking about doing but in the end opted for the more modern look with smurf lume and flat cyclops crystal.


Yup I enjoy the distortion and vintage look. Had the smurf but sold it as I was pining for the green lume and creamy markers....


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Yup I enjoy the distortion and vintage look. Had the smurf but sold it as I was pining for the green lume and creamy markers....


Sounds exciting! show us some pictures!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

A quick shot.


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

Congratulations! When did you order? Just curious. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

October 13th but I got bumped up cause someone ahead of me couldn’t pay. Quite pleased!!!


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

I’m sure you are. It’s nice! Thank you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## v1triol (Jul 21, 2015)

DevilDogDoc said:


> A quick shot.
> View attachment 14824533


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

DevilDogDoc said:


> A quick shot.
> View attachment 14824533


Nice! is that date wheel white or GS colour?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

v1triol said:


> View attachment 14826561


I'll try and get some more tonight!!


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Nice! is that date wheel white or GS colour?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Beige!!! One of my favorite details is that it matches the lume. The smurf gets a white wheel and this one a beige one.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Amazing details of the OR2, this is really giving a good run for the money.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

DevilDogDoc said:


> Beige!!! One of my favorite details is that it matches the lume. The smurf gets a white wheel and this one a beige one.


This one detail just elevated Ginault's brand in my book.

So many brand (including well established luxury brands - I'm looking at you, Omega) would've just used a white date wheel.

For Ginault to have taken the time to source a beige date wheel to match the vintage gold sand lumen (again, in my experience one of the best "faux-vintage" lume applications I have seen on any production watch from any vendor) speaks volumes to their attention to detail.


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> This one detail just elevated Ginault's brand in my book.
> 
> So many brand (including well established luxury brands - I'm looking at you, Omega) would've just used a white date wheel.
> 
> For Ginault to have taken the time to source a beige date wheel to match the vintage gold sand lumen (again, in my experience one of the best "faux-vintage" lume applications I have seen on any production watch from any vendor) speaks volumes to their attention to detail.


Indeed!! And it makes the whole face/markers match so nicely! The date wheel blends with the other indices until you need to see the date. Absolutely perfect!! And it's gained a half second in 48 hours. Mind blown


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

How is the quality of OR2? Vs with omega seamaster ceramic 2016 version? 
I read so great reviews about quality of Ginault.....


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

kostantinos said:


> How is the quality of OR2? Vs with omega seamaster ceramic 2016 version?
> I read so great reviews about quality of Ginault.....


You already dropped your preorder, why do you care? It's a great watch.....


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> How is the quality of OR2? Vs with omega seamaster ceramic 2016 version?
> I read so great reviews about quality of Ginault.....


I think I have given you my opinion once before. I really don't think anyone here would tell you that the OR2 is "better" than a Rolex Sub or Omega SMP, and I think most here would agree with me on that.

But if you take a way the brand history/value, and the in-house movements, for the price you pay for the Ocean Rover, you are really getting a very high quality and premium watch with refined details what you would only normally find on premium divers like the Sub or SMP.

Just look at the details of this thing


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Another shot of the OR2 loving it!


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Kinetic Continuous Date?


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> Kinetic Continuous Date?


I can't get a good enough macro shot but the printed text on the glossy dial is absolutely beautiful. It's raised with a refined edge.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Tried again with better lighting not sure if it shows


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> Tried again with better lighting not sure if it shows
> 
> View attachment 14832327


looks absolutely fantastic


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

yankeexpress said:


> Kinetic Continuous Date?


Obviously a riff on "Oyster Perpetual Date" though that in itself is kind of interesting. I assume that for Rolex that means that the Subs are descended from the Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches. I'm not sure how useful THAT is on a watch these days either.

If Rolex didn't exist, the "Date" part would be obvious. The "kinetic" would essentially mean Automatic (has a rotor winding the watch) though kinetic is often referred to as the electronic version of Automatic. Continuous would be anyone's guess -- I mean it's not taking month length into account I don't think. Rolex doesn't do that either do they?

I kind of think you have to give the text a pass as a riff on the watch this is an homage of.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

carbon_dragon said:


> Obviously a riff on "Oyster Perpetual Date" though that in itself is kind of interesting. I assume that for Rolex that means that the Subs are descended from the Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches. I'm not sure how useful THAT is on a watch these days either.
> 
> If Rolex didn't exist, the "Date" part would be obvious. The "kinetic" would essentially mean Automatic (has a rotor winding the watch) though kinetic is often referred to as the electronic version of Automatic. Continuous would be anyone's guess -- I mean it's not taking month length into account I don't think. Rolex doesn't do that either do they?
> 
> I kind of think you have to give the text a pass as a riff on the watch this is an homage of.


I thought it was pretty clever. It is kinetic. It is powered by energy from our motion, in many ways more true of a description than "automatic"


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## trf2271 (Dec 21, 2015)

carbon_dragon said:


> Obviously a riff on "Oyster Perpetual Date" though that in itself is kind of interesting. I assume that for Rolex that means that the Subs are descended from the Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches. I'm not sure how useful THAT is on a watch these days either.
> 
> If Rolex didn't exist, the "Date" part would be obvious. The "kinetic" would essentially mean Automatic (has a rotor winding the watch) though kinetic is often referred to as the electronic version of Automatic. Continuous would be anyone's guess -- I mean it's not taking month length into account I don't think. Rolex doesn't do that either do they?
> 
> I kind of think you have to give the text a pass as a riff on the watch this is an homage of.


Oyster refers to the Rolex oyster case and perpetual is the automatic movement


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Saw this beauty posted by another member on Ginault Watch club on FB, loving the time only style so clean and balanced


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> Saw this beauty posted by another member on Ginault Watch club on FB, loving the time only style so clean and balanced
> View attachment 14842523


Indeed!









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Here is mine for the day


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

yankeexpress said:


> Kinetic Continuous Date?


I've seen far worse.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

TheRealTC said:


> Here is mine for the day
> View attachment 14853525


Is that dirt @ 9:00 on the bezel or did you scratch it?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Today I exit the Ginault’s club, since I have sold my OR.

It has been a pleasure to wear it, to get in touch with John (always responsive, YMMV), to learn from you and to interact with you.

Bought the OR to figure out about the size (given that trying a Submariner currently is almost impossible). After several months I decided that I was ready to buy a Submariner and was lucky to find one in good shape, at a good price from a serious seller.

To all the haters, keep your words for yourself and let the people enjoy a great watch at a great price (IMO). I bought it in the beginning when there still was a good discount for it.

If you do not want to pay a Submariner or just prefer the Mil-Sub look with a moderne twist, I can only encourage you to get a OR or, if you fancy the ceramic bezel, the second iteration.

Be good! I’ll be around.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Today I exit the Ginault's club, since I have sold my OR.
> 
> It has been a pleasure to wear it, to get in touch with John (always responsive, YMMV), to learn from you and to interact with you.
> 
> ...


Congrats on the new-to-you Sub! Those are certainly a grail watch for many collectors.

I can't help but think, though, that you should've hung onto the Ginault for activities you wouldn't want to wear the Rolex.

I know the Rolex was designed to stand up to pretty much anything a human can (and likely beyond), but I still have a hard time exposing my $$$ watch to rough duty.

Congrats again and enjoy that Sub.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Today I exit the Ginault's club, since I have sold my OR.
> 
> It has been a pleasure to wear it, to get in touch with John (always responsive, YMMV), to learn from you and to interact with you.
> 
> ...


Nice one!!! I always enjoyed your posts and pictures. I for one would like to see a pic of your new watch 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Today I exit the Ginault's club, since I have sold my OR.
> 
> It has been a pleasure to wear it, to get in touch with John (always responsive, YMMV), to learn from you and to interact with you.
> 
> ...


Glad you enjoyed your time with it.

Personally never really considered the OR as a sub substitute. I went for it purely because I like the look and appreciated the effort john put into producing it.

I like to think I'll eventually end up with both when the sub becomes an option for me. (If I can get over those Mercedes hands.)

Anyway Enjoy your new sub.

Sent from my SM-T719 using Tapatalk


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> Glad you enjoyed your time with it.
> 
> Personally never really considered the OR as a sub substitute. I went for it purely because I like the look and appreciated the effort john put into producing it.
> 
> ...


I'm with you on the dislike of Mercedes handsets.

Bamford used to be the shop to go to for custom Rolex, and they made a hell of a modern Mil Sub homage from a modern Sub base. Images here: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/t...inal-without-the-six-figure-bill#&gid=1&pid=2

Unfortunately, Bamford has stepped away from Rolex (as have other custom shops) due to Rolex refusal of customer support to modified watches and the threat of litigation.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ntinos_H said:


> Nice one!!! I always enjoyed your posts and pictures. I for one would like to see a pic of your new watch
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk












There you go, sir!

Thanks for all your replies.


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> There you go, sir!
> 
> Thanks for all your replies.


Beautiful, enjoy it 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> There you go, sir!


That's a very nice Ocean Rover homage!


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Not hatin'; just sayin'...

...and I'd feel real bad if this turned out to be the case...

...but it would certainly be ironic if that turned out to be a really well-done TC fake...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

mconlonx said:


> Not hatin'; just sayin'...
> 
> ...and I'd feel real bad if this turned out to be the case...
> 
> ...but it would certainly be ironic if that turned out to be a really well-done TC fake...


Don't worry, bought with papers and serviced by RSC. ;-)


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

It's a no date, a watch that hasn't sold nearly as well as the date sub, so probably isn't faked nearly as much. 
Also, the 14060 is the best Sub ever in my opinion (disclaimer: I own a four liner)
IIRC when I looked into the TC sub because of the controversy surrounding Ginault, the only references available were the four liner five digit date and the five digit LV


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

LARufCTR said:


> Is that dirt @ 9:00 on the bezel or did you scratch it?


That's finger print marks. The ceramic material is glossy and reflective so attracts finger print easily. Have been wearing the OR2 everywhere with me and it has been a perfect tool watch and I guess that's how a proper tool watch should look like.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> I'm with you on the dislike of Mercedes handsets.
> 
> Bamford used to be the shop to go to for custom Rolex, and they made a hell of a modern Mil Sub homage from a modern Sub base. Images here: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/t...inal-without-the-six-figure-bill#&gid=1&pid=2
> 
> Unfortunately, Bamford has stepped away from Rolex (as have other custom shops) due to Rolex refusal of customer support to modified watches and the threat of litigation.


One of the main reason I am so taken to Ginault is their concept and direction of recreating the "perfect" MilSub. In my opinion they picked the perfect midcase as the platform building this sought-after enthusiast's timepiece.


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## deepcdvr (Dec 31, 2007)

CAUTION: just a quick word of caution on this brand - they make an awesome watch, but I’ve tried to contact them on three separate occasions to effect repairs and only my first email was answered (after 4 weeks) and the other two have been ignored. I find this unacceptable and I’ve had experience with dozens of large house and micro vendors.

Again, the product is incredible, but in my experience do not count on support after the sale. YMMV


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

deepcdvr said:


> CAUTION: just a quick word of caution on this brand - they make an awesome watch, but I've tried to contact them on three separate occasions to effect repairs and only my first email was answered (after 4 weeks) and the other two have been ignored. I find this unacceptable and I've had experience with dozens of large house and micro vendors.
> 
> Again, the product is incredible, but in my experience do not count on support after the sale. YMMV


Interesting... I've always found John to be quite responsive when it comes to communication. A few days is the most I've had to wait (which is understandable considering he's pretty much a one man band) I suppose I've never had to deal with warranty issues though so could be a different story there.

Anyway I'm pretty sure he'll respond soon enough and get everything sorted for you.

keep us posted.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

For anyone else who ordered in late September or October, we should expect our watches sometime next month, if there aren't any more delays.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

deepcdvr said:


> CAUTION: just a quick word of caution on this brand - they make an awesome watch, but I've tried to contact them on three separate occasions to effect repairs and only my first email was answered (after 4 weeks) and the other two have been ignored. I find this unacceptable and I've had experience with dozens of large house and micro vendors.
> 
> Again, the product is incredible, but in my experience do not count on support after the sale. YMMV


I have never had communication issue with John. Sometimes you will have to wait for a few days but he does what he says he would.

You mentioned you sent three emails and he replied to the first one. Were they other two emails also regarding the same issue you mentioned in the first email?


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

This is just spectacular to look at


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Mr Auto said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks great 

I ordered mine back in November so probably have a while to go yet before delivery.

I emailed John a while back and asked him to put the aluminium bezel insert into mine as generally that's what I prefer on my watches, however I'm now beginning to have some doubts after seeing your photo.

How do you find the ceramic in real life, too shiny/blingy, or not?

Appreciate the thoughts of other ORII owners out there.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

woodruffm said:


> Looks great
> 
> I ordered mine back in November so probably have a while to go yet before delivery.
> 
> ...


Thanks

it does have that typical ceramic wet look to it in person but Its not shiny. I also considered having aluminium just because I prefered the look of the bezel without the full indicies. changed my mind last minute though.

I'm happy my decision and I'm sure you'll be happy with yours when it arrives. Send us some pics when it lands.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## MrNurburg (Feb 15, 2020)

Is there any truth that all these now come with the ETA 2824 in them? I placed my order October 17. 
Long time lurker, first time poster.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

MrNurburg said:


> Is there any truth that all these now come with the ETA 2824 in them? I placed my order October 17.
> Long time lurker, first time poster.


My understanding is that they will come with either an ETA 2824 or a Sellita SW200, depending on which that can get easier/cheaper at the time

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> My understanding is that they will come with either an ETA 2824 or a Sellita SW200, depending on which that can get easier/cheaper at the time
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is correct. The default movement for the OR2 is either the SW200-1 or the ETA 2824-2. CAL7275 is phased out already. Mine came with an SW200-1, and John said the selection of which movement that goes into the build is decided by stock availability at the time of building the watch.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> That is correct. The default movement for the OR2 is either the SW200-1 or the ETA 2824-2. CAL7275 is phased out already. Mine came with an SW200-1, and John said the selection of which movement that goes into the build is decided by stock availability at the time of building the watch.


so the Cal 7275 is no more??

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Mr Auto said:


> so the Cal 7275 is no more??
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


I guess so, at that price point you should get a proper Swiss made movement, probably Élaboré or Top grade.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

lvt said:


> I guess so, at that price point you should get a proper Swiss made movement, probably Élaboré or Top grade.


Well Ginault isn't the first brand to modify a 2824 design and call it a house brand. Somehow it's a good thing when Tudor does it. And the Elabore/Top Grade movements distinguish theirselves by decoration and regulation right? Here you're getting a regulated Sellita so as long as it behaves well, I'm pretty satisfied. I mean you can't see the movement without opening up the back and I'm not going to do that anyway.

I think I'd rather have a regulated Sellita SW200 than an unregulated Elabore or top Sellita SW200 because I want someone to have actually looked at the movement instead of depending on the movement's QC (because I figure once you case it, something could have been damaged and I want it to be looked at after it's in the case). Just my opinion here, but I'd have been OK with either movement really.


----------



## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I would have much preferred to have the 7275 in my ORII. In fact, I may just sell mine because of this. I had an ORI for years and really wore that watch hard. I fully wound the movement by hand every time I wore it, and over the years not only did I never have an issue, but it remained quite accurate.

In terms of the movement that's in my ORII, not only have I had multiple bad experiences with the SW200 in other watches, but when I talked to John about the movement he recommended not hand-winding it at all. I know this is an issue with the SW200 and even with the ETA 2824, but it really shouldn't be. If Seiko and Citizen can make cheaper movements that can be handwound all day, every day, then you should be able to expect the same from the Swiss.


----------



## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

The 7275 in my OR1 runs great, maybe the rotor is a little more noisy than I remember my last 2824 being, but it’s not something I notice on the wrist 

I had a break from the OR, and on 15/01 I took it out of the box, wound it up a bit (about ten crown turns) and I’ve worn it every day since

I just timed it at +28 against the atomic clock - that’s plus 28 seconds in 35 days and in that time I’ve had very active days and very idle ones (and some in between)

It’s over two years old. You can’t argue with that really!


----------



## deepcdvr (Dec 31, 2007)

TheRealTC said:


> I have never had communication issue with John. Sometimes you will have to wait for a few days but he does what he says he would.
> 
> You mentioned you sent three emails and he replied to the first one. Were they other two emails also regarding the same issue you mentioned in the first email?


Thanks for asking! The answer is no - I originally asked him about adjusting the timing and it took a while to answer and in the meantime I decided to tackle it myself - bad call, by the way - and I promptly let my screwdriver slip and broke the spring. I know, idiot move.

My subsequent emails were to ask about a replacement spring or replacement movement. Those emails went unanswered to date and it's been several weeks.

At this point I'll have to find someone to swap movements for me or replace the spring or I could try to sell it as is, in which case I suspect I would take an awful beating lol


----------



## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

deepcdvr said:


> Thanks for asking! The answer is no - I originally asked him about adjusting the timing and it took a while to answer and in the meantime I decided to tackle it myself - bad call, by the way - and I promptly let my screwdriver slip and broke the spring. I know, idiot move.
> 
> My subsequent emails were to ask about a replacement spring or replacement movement. Those emails went unanswered to date and it's been several weeks.
> 
> At this point I'll have to find someone to swap movements for me or replace the spring or I could try to sell it as is, in which case I suspect I would take an awful beating lol


Given that the 7275 is an ETA 2824 clone, an ETA spring should fit. Any competent watchmaker should be able to order and fit the spring.


----------



## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> The 7275 in my OR1 runs great, maybe the rotor is a little more noisy than I remember my last 2824 being, but it's not something I notice on the wrist
> 
> I had a break from the OR, and on 15/01 I took it out of the box, wound it up a bit (about ten crown turns) and I've worn it every day since
> 
> ...


That's pretty much my experience with the one I've had for 2 years. For whatever reason the rotor noise is more than what you'd expect. It doesn't bother me, but every genuine ETA and every other 2824 clone I've owned has less.


----------



## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

carbon_dragon said:


> And the Elabore/Top Grade movements distinguish theirselves by decoration and regulation right?


As far as the components go there's not much difference between standard and elaboré or top and chronometre. Between elaboré and top there's a much bigger difference.


----------



## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

adzman808 said:


> The 7275 in my OR1 runs great, maybe the rotor is a little more noisy than I remember my last 2824 being, but it's not something I notice on the wrist
> 
> I had a break from the OR, and on 15/01 I took it out of the box, wound it up a bit (about ten crown turns) and I've worn it every day since
> 
> ...


Mine with SW200-1 is averaging about +3spd


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## Take-5 (Nov 3, 2019)

Hi Dude, 

That does look great but I noticed the triangle at 12 on the bezel looks like it has had a bit of a tough time, is that just the light/camera effect or is it a little bit delicate? I ask because I have seen slight issues with that.. which although they are probably unnoticeable to the casual observer, I'm a bit of a nitpicker and am worried if I bought that my own would bug me. Thanks


----------



## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Take-5 said:


> Hi Dude,
> 
> That does look great but I noticed the triangle at 12 on the bezel looks like it has had a bit of a tough time, is that just the light/camera effect or is it a little bit delicate? I ask because I have seen slight issues with that.. which although they are probably unnoticeable to the casual observer, I'm a bit of a nitpicker and am worried if I bought that my own would bug me. Thanks


When I first saw it, I thought the IPG was coming off so I contacted John about it and this is his reply

"The IPG coated engraving surface when examined under a microscope, forms a gritty surface. This means once the surface is stained, the stain will be hard to remove. I have seen many ceramic Submariners getting dirty and stained just from daily use as desk divers. Our hands mixed with skin oil can cause a staining effect on an IPG surface. See below picture for your reference."









"When cleaning dirt or tiny foreign particles lodged inside the engraved grooves, be sure NOT to use any sharp tip to scratch the surface directly. The coated engraving surface can get damaged when scratched. To clean it, we suggest using Fun-Tak putty"

I tried the Fun-Tak putty method and sure enough was able to get the dirty grime out from the engraved area, but the darkened spots are stains from finger oil which I was not able to remove. I wear my watch as tool watch and am pretty rough with it, so I am not too worried about keep the appearance pristine so it does not bother me too much.


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

View attachment 14896953


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)




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## MrNurburg (Feb 15, 2020)

You are rough on your watch. I have a watch coming in any week now and was worried about the paint in the indices coming off when paying this much. But now that it seems it's not the paint that's the problem, I'll go forward with delivery.
Have you tried soaking it warm soapy water? Maybe loosens the oil in there. 
How much does Ginault charge for a new ORII bezel? Anyone know?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

MrNurburg said:


> You are rough on your watch. I have a watch coming in any week now and was worried about the paint in the indices coming off when paying this much. But now that it seems it's not the paint that's the problem, I'll go forward with delivery.
> Have you tried soaking it warm soapy water? Maybe loosens the oil in there.
> How much does Ginault charge for a new ORII bezel? Anyone know?


I think they charged $80 or so for an aluminum insert. I'm not sure what they charge for a ceramic insert, but likely more

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrNurburg (Feb 15, 2020)

I'm new to this. What does IPG coated mean? Is it paint? Is it paint then a clear coat applied over?


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

MrNurburg said:


> You are rough on your watch. I have a watch coming in any week now and was worried about the paint in the indices coming off when paying this much. But now that it seems it's not the paint that's the problem, I'll go forward with delivery.
> Have you tried soaking it warm soapy water? Maybe loosens the oil in there.
> How much does Ginault charge for a new ORII bezel? Anyone know?


I would not say I am gentle with it you are right. I wear it snowboarding, mountain biking and jogging an ect. I was teaching my son how to change engine oil the other day and was wearing it too, so I am not terribly worried about keeping it in pristine condition. I bought it as a tool watch and intend to use it as such, and when I pass it to my son later he will have the same memory doing these things with his old man.


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

Hey guys, just wanted to update you all. My watch was return to me today and is working perfect.

John had originally said that warranty wait time was 12-16 weeks but he was able to turn it around in 6! I'm very happy with the service and turnaround.

Now I hope I can wear longer than a week this time without any issues lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

When the light is right, you see all these different details coming to live


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

When the light is right, you see all these different details coming to live


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Debating putting a 12 hour bezel insert in mine and dedicating it as my go to travel watch.......

I know Tiger direct makes an insert that fits the 16610, so that should fit this, but man would I love to find a Pepsi insert in 12 hour


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## deoreo (Sep 28, 2017)

Just received my Ocean Rover II
I wanted the gold sand lume, but I specifically asked for a white date wheel.

I love it!!

I like how it has a classic vintage look, but with a modern twist of the ceramic bezel.
I was worried that the ceramic bezel would not be "black" enough, and too shiny, but seeing it on the wrist, it's beautiful.

I purchased this one with the idea of possibly selling my original Ocean Rover, but I don't know, I do love the domed crystal of the original no-date.
Just fantastic watches!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

deoreo said:


> Just received my Ocean Rover II
> I wanted the gold sand lume, but I specifically asked for a white date wheel.
> 
> I love it!!
> ...


I like the contrast of the white date wheel. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## dickopf (Jun 4, 2019)

A special request for those that have the ORII on hand -- Any chance we can get a macro album? I would love to see all the details in high magnification.


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## watches4ever (Dec 7, 2019)

Ginault said:


> View attachment 12397103
> 
> 
> View attachment 12397125
> ...


Very impressive Rolex Sub homage - the best one I have seen


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

If order was placed in mid November 2019 when should expect the shipping date about ?


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## MrNurburg (Feb 15, 2020)

marinemaster said:


> If order was placed in mid November 2019 when should expect the shipping date about ?


They're shipping October now. So my guess would be end of March. I'm October 17, I hope to get an invoice this week for my watch.


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

Can someone please confirm, this IS in fact the ORii right? I was seeing something about the phase 1 and 2 prices and then the regular price thereafter, but this would still be the phase 1 price. Does this make sense? And is this what all of you paid or did anyone have discounts?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MrNurburg (Feb 15, 2020)

That's the ORII. If you can still get in, do it. That's the price we all paid for the date version. The no date version is cheaper at $1039. 
From the facebook group, they seem to be sold out. BUT, if someone backs out while waiting for their watch, there's a list of people on standby to take their place. I heard a rumor that when all orders are filled, they'll make an additional 50 pieces at full retail price; $1699 date and $1499 no date. Who knows. 

It's really a great watch.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

MrNurburg said:


> That's the ORII. If you can still get in, do it. That's the price we all paid for the date version. The no date version is cheaper at $1039.
> From the facebook group, they seem to be sold out. BUT, if someone backs out while waiting for their watch, there's a list of people on standby to take their place. I heard a rumor that when all orders are filled, they'll make an additional 50 pieces at full retail price; $1699 date and $1499 no date. Who knows.
> 
> It's really a great watch.


On the Facebook group I heard someone say they might do a phase 2 once they are done with their phase 1 orders. If they stick to their plan from a year ago the phase 2 prices would be only a mild increase in price. I also remember people talking about 50 at full prices though, so I don't know what the current plan is. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I was finally able to pick up my custom ORII today after missing the postman on Friday! Really impressed with it! My goal is to do an in depth review against my Monta Oceanking in a month or two after my work slows down a bit









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I was finally able to pick up my custom ORII today after missing the postman on Friday! Really impressed with it! My goal is to do an in depth review against my Monta Oceanking in a month or two after my work slows down a bit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks awesome with that Red bezel.

Enjoy it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

MrNurburg said:


> They're shipping October now. So my guess would be end of March. I'm October 17, I hope to get an invoice this week for my watch.


Was that based on reports from the Facebook group? Curious since I ordered on Sep 30th and haven't heard anything.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Citizen V said:


> Was that based on reports from the Facebook group? Curious since I ordered on Sep 30th and haven't heard anything.


My watch was a September 20th order and I just received it. I think they are around late September early October right now depending on your specific configuration. I would guess you would get your 9/30 order in the next week or two

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PeladonWatch (Oct 24, 2019)

dickopf said:


> A special request for those that have the ORII on hand -- Any chance we can get a macro album? I would love to see all the details in high magnification.


You can check out watchspec.com for a detailed review.

I am not sure if a link is allowed, if not i'll remove it.
https://www.watchspec.com/ginault-ocean-rover-2/


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

PeladonWatch said:


> You can check out watchspec.com for a detailed review.
> 
> I am not sure if a link is allowed, if not i'll remove it.
> https://www.watchspec.com/ginault-ocean-rover-2/


is this the first OR2 review on Youtube?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

TheRealTC said:


> is this the first OR2 review on Youtube?


nah there's one more I watched last week ill have a look for the link

update: 




Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## AFZ (Mar 3, 2020)

PeladonWatch said:


> You can check out watchspec.com for a detailed review.
> 
> I am not sure if a link is allowed, if not i'll remove it.
> watchspec.com/ginault-ocean-rover-2/


That's not a review, it's an advertisement.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

AFZ said:


> That's not a review, it's an advertisement.


Yep I agree it's heavily biased and his camera work isn't great.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I ordered a 12 hour insert I plan to install.........well see how that goes.

I really wanted a pepsi but could only find black in the aftermarket scene


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

I made parctical use of the glidelock clasp. The ORII got through 7 hours of skiing in freezing temperatures without an issue.


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

WastedYears said:


> I made parctical use of the glidelock clasp. The ORII got through 7 hours of skiing in freezing temperatures without an issue.
> 
> View attachment 14926139


 Can you tell me the length of the clasp? Appreciate it


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

dorningarts said:


> Can you tell me the length of the clasp? Appreciate it


The top of the clasp is about 47mm long and the bottom about 50mm.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I set my ORII on Monday when I got the watch, and it is still accurate to the second. Can’t complain about that! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I set my ORII on Monday when I got the watch, and it is still accurate to the second. Can't complain about that!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine is around +3spd with a Sellita SW200-1 movement after settling in.


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## consum3r (Sep 19, 2014)

badgerracer said:


> I set my ORII on Monday when I got the watch, and it is still accurate to the second. Can't complain about that!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Which movement?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

consum3r said:


> Which movement?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Mine has an ETA

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

Just saw this amazing photo of the OR2, photo by a Ginault Watch Club's member from Facebook.


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

I just got lucky and received one...perfect time (less than 24 hours) and yes most comfortable watch by far that I have owned..

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

jprangley said:


> I just got lucky and received one...perfect time (less than 24 hours) and yes most comfortable watch by far that I have owned..
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a beauty


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## TheRealTC (Jun 24, 2019)

@jprangley What kind of timing accuracy are you getting on yours?


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

ETA movement Started Monday (today is Thursday) 
+ -1 currently on time! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

Funny enough my Invicta is deadddd accurate and I’ve been wearing it since Monday.
I had gotten an Alpha Explorer used on eBay and lost interest in the Invicta (which is when I found out about Ginault). But the Alpha is like over 5 minutes fast a day -__- lol, I have to regulate that thing and see what’s up. Went back to the Invicta for now, until the ORII comes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Still loving my ORII! The ETA in mine is at about -2spd









Although I know Ginault is planning on doing original designs after they are done with the ORII, I would personally love if they did to the Explorer I what they did to the submariner. Make a 36mm 12470/112470 with sword hands, lumed Arabic's from the current Explorer, and give it the glidelock bracelet. Maybe throw in some gold sand lume just for good measure.

I normally try to avoid multiple watches from the same brand for more variety (currently breaking that rule for Monta) but I would definitely buy a second Ginault if they made that Explorer!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

TheRealTC,

Let me clarify, I hacked to this clock on Monday, this is where it is today + - 1 sec now rock steady accurate

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Still loving my ORII! The ETA in mine is at about -2spd
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Duuuude, I would LOVE a 36mm Explorer 1!
I wanted to buy the Ginault glidelock for my Alpha Explorer, but that watch isn't nearly good enough to justify the cost of the bracelet lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

I’m living vicariously through your pictures, I’d ordered the same combination minus the cyclops, it’ll be a while before mine’s done so in the meantime I’m admiring yours!


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Should I do it?


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

I did it


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## v1triol (Jul 21, 2015)

badgerracer said:


> Still loving my ORII! The ETA in mine is at about -2spd
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stunner. 
Custom insert I assume?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Guys any idea why the recent Ginault thread got shut down? 

It was called "show us your Ginault" or something along those lines and was running fine, zero arguments last time I checked. 



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> Guys any idea why the recent Ginault thread got shut down?
> 
> It was called "show us your Ginault" or something along those lines and was running fine, zero arguments last time I checked.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Didn't see it. There was another Ginault thread that got pretty nasty recently. I was able to greatly expand my ignore list. It got shut down eventually by the admins. This may be the only Ginault thread that has survived long term.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

carbon_dragon said:


> Didn't see it. There was another Ginault thread that got pretty nasty recently. I was able to greatly expand my ignore list. It got shut down eventually by the admins. This may be the only Ginault thread that has survived long term.


Yea that one ended up a mess. there was another shortly after just showing pics no drama. maybe the mods thought 2 Ginault threads aren't needed.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> Yea that one ended up a mess. there was another shortly after just showing pics no drama. maybe the mods thought 2 Ginault threads aren't needed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


The WUS admin/mod recently confirmed (at the end of a locked thread) that Ginault was using shills to respond/promote through WUS. Maybe another one showed up and started the thread you are referring to and it got zapped.

EDIT: here's the post FYI:



CMSgt Bo said:


> ChronoB said:
> 
> 
> > Quote Originally Posted by ChronoB
> ...


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Wow thats too bad, such a good watch as to ruin it with that behavior.....


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Unfortunately, my only two months old ORII ceramic had to go back to Ginault for warranty claim. My ceramic bezel insert had also these dark spots in the triangle.

Ginault was very prompt to react to my claim. Nevertheless, I could not use their EU Service Point in Berlin. Instead, I needed to send the watch back from Europe to the US as they want to report all these cases in their HQ in the US. 

I understand that they are still busy with all the ORII preorders. Still, I only had the watch for a short time and think the change of a bezel insert should be a quick fix.

Does somebody know if the new bezel assembly requires more to change the insert out?


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## TheRealTC 2 (Mar 17, 2020)

hidden by leaves said:


> The WUS admin/mod recently confirmed (at the end of a locked thread) that Ginault was using shills to respond/promote through WUS. Maybe another one showed up and started the thread you are referring to and it got zapped.
> 
> EDIT: here's the post FYI:


I was the account that got banned for alleged Ginault shilling.

However, I strongly protest to such baseless conclusion by the forum mods and demand a public explanation.

1.I do NOT work for Ginault.

2. It's not hard to see there are a lot of people on the forum intentionally want to pass on false/fake information about the brand. I was merely righting the wrongs and correcting false information.

If you call speaking truth shilling then I must say it's a very unfortunate and regrettable way of conducting a public forum.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

TheRealTC 2 said:


> I was the account that got banned for alleged Ginault shilling.
> 
> However, I strongly protest to such baseless conclusion by the forum mods and demand a public explanation.
> 
> ...


We don't owe you anything but a well deserved banning. Go astroturf someplace else.

And for the record, we are _not _a public forum, we are a private forum. All members must accept our Terms Of Service and rules as a condition of membership. As a reminder, our rule number one states: _Members must limit their registration to one account. Multiple accounts can be removed without notice._

And here's a few useful definitions...

Astroturfing: _the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by grassroots participants._

Shill: _an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others._


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## Gunnar_917 (Feb 24, 2015)

TheRealTC 2 said:


> I was the account that got banned for alleged Ginault shilling.
> 
> However, I strongly protest to such baseless conclusion by the forum mods and demand a public explanation.
> 
> ...


...


----------



## Black5 (Nov 17, 2012)

CMSgt Bo said:


> We don't owe you anything but a well deserved banning. Go astroturf someplace else.
> 
> And for the record, we are _not _a public forum, we are a private forum. All members must accept our Terms Of Service and rules as a condition of membership. As a reminder, our rule number one states: _Members must limit their registration to one account. Multiple accounts can be removed without notice._
> 
> ...


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## DEV.Woulf (Jul 29, 2012)

I knew something was up with him. I tried to not let his _bizarre_ name sway my opinion but it seemed every one of this posts was a subtle advertisement for Ginault. And he was SO defensive of every little criticism of the Ocean-Rover. It was very weird and not like a simple wearer. o|


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

The Real TC 3 will be back 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Black5 (Nov 17, 2012)

Mr Auto said:


> The Real TC 3 will be back
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thoughtful, creative and original name.
Fits...



Gunnar_917 said:


> ^^ tells the truth on Internet forums


SOoO many watches, SOoO little time...


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

CMSgt Bo said:


> We don't owe you anything but a well deserved banning. Go astroturf someplace else.
> 
> And for the record, we are _not _a public forum, we are a private forum. All members must accept our Terms Of Service and rules as a condition of membership. As a reminder, our rule number one states: _Members must limit their registration to one account. Multiple accounts can be removed without notice._
> 
> ...


Shouldn't you be concentrating on the people who seemed determined to ruin any Ginault thread that comes onto the forum by never-ending libel against Ginault and anyone who likes them or wants to talk about them until the thread gets shut down? I'm all for courtesy and tolerance, but are the detractors of the brand getting the same treatment?


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

I agree with carbon_dragon. I have not visited this thread for a while but at some point there were malicious attacks against Ginault and against members that just wanted to hang out and post about their watches (isn't this what people in various forums do?). I do not say that the decision to ban was wrong, I do not have any information as to whether the banned member was actually from Ginault, just that it would be nice for the moderators to take action also in attacks against the brand. People are free to make their minds and state their thoughts. But it is peculiar that people would decide to do this within a thread for people that happen to like the brand. It would be nicer to dedicate the space here to people that actually own these watches to discuss about what they like about them but also about problems that came up with them.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

And to clean a bit the air, two of my favorite watches. My old Lumimor Panerai 111 and the OR2.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## hugof3C (Aug 3, 2017)

carbon_dragon said:


> Shouldn't you be concentrating on the people who seemed determined to ruin any Ginault thread that comes onto the forum by never-ending libel against Ginault and anyone who likes them or wants to talk about them until the thread gets shut down? I'm all for courtesy and tolerance, but are the detractors of the brand getting the same treatment?


the guy calling for a jihad against Ginault and trying to enroll others got the same well deserved treatment, banned.









also, 'the real TC' was beyond any line anyone here may feel others, regardless of how they positioned themselves in this matter, may have crossed on occasion. 
this is how Ginault conducts itself, as a brand and towards members here.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

carbon_dragon said:


> Shouldn't you be concentrating on the people who seemed determined to ruin any Ginault thread that comes onto the forum by never-ending libel against Ginault and anyone who likes them or wants to talk about them until the thread gets shut down? I'm all for courtesy and tolerance, but are the detractors of the brand getting the same treatment?


I appreciate your concern, but I've got this.

There's a difference between trolls and astroturfing shills (manufacturer/brand owned puppet accounts). The trolls usually get a few warnings, the astroturfing shills are banned at the time of detection with extreme prejudice.

It helps to see and understand the big picture.


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## carbon_dragon (Jul 28, 2019)

CMSgt Bo said:


> I appreciate your concern, but I've got this.
> 
> There's a difference between trolls and astroturfing shills (manufacturer/brand owned puppet accounts). The trolls usually get a few warnings, the astroturfing shills are banned at the time of detection with extreme prejudice.
> 
> It helps to see and understand the big picture.


I'm not really sure why the shills are an issue since you'd think that's what forums are for (one would presume that the forums would correct that naturally by giving you real stories). My dad always told me that one oh sh%$ was worth 10 atta-boys. Which was to say that it only took one negative report to balance ten good ones. Maybe that is unfair, but it is hard to believe that a shill could change the mind of forum readers who are likely to also hear the real stories people are experiencing. It seems all too easy to see shills in the posts of people who just have positive stories (or possibly an irrational commitment to a brand -- e.g. Seiko, Rolex, and so on).

On the other hand, I'm pretty tired of getting hammered by the regular posters who do everything they can to ruin the Watchuseek experience of anyone who appreciates Ginault watches. If you're trying to preserve the fun and usefulness of the site, perhaps it's appropriate to consider the activities of those who are determined to ruin that fun for others. Maybe your warnings should not be for their posts in a single topic, which they then repeat over and over, but for their entire experience within the forums. I suspect if Rolex was getting hammered this way, they'd be banned rather faster. I'm all for freedom of speech, but for THIS topic with THIS brand it's taken to ridiculous levels of hostility.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

Wait, are ppl arguing in favour of shills now?

yikes.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

carbon_dragon said:


> I'm not really sure why the shills are an issue since you'd think that's what forums are for (one would presume that the forums would correct that naturally by giving you real stories). My dad always told me that one oh sh%$ was worth 10 atta-boys. Which was to say that it only took one negative report to balance ten good ones. Maybe that is unfair, but it is hard to believe that a shill could change the mind of forum readers who are likely to also hear the real stories people are experiencing. It seems all too easy to see shills in the posts of people who just have positive stories (or possibly an irrational commitment to a brand -- e.g. Seiko, Rolex, and so on).
> 
> On the other hand, I'm pretty tired of getting hammered by the regular posters who do everything they can to ruin the Watchuseek experience of anyone who appreciates Ginault watches. If you're trying to preserve the fun and usefulness of the site, perhaps it's appropriate to consider the activities of those who are determined to ruin that fun for others. Maybe your warnings should not be for their posts in a single topic, which they then repeat over and over, but for their entire experience within the forums. I suspect if Rolex was getting hammered this way, they'd be banned rather faster. I'm all for freedom of speech, but for THIS topic with THIS brand it's taken to ridiculous levels of hostility.


Both seem to get address, just in different manors......

*""The trolls usually get a few warnings, the astroturfing shills are banned at the time of detection with extreme prejudice.""*


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Both seem to get address, just in different manors......
> 
> *""The trolls usually get a few warnings, the astroturfing shills are banned at the time of detection with extreme prejudice.""*


Ya, as long as the mods are giving out punishments on both sides I see this as a good thing. Hopefully with extremists on both sides gone we can have some more conversation actually about watches. I just home the guy who multiple times said his goal was to "get every thread about Ginault shut down" got a ban.

Back to watches, I am still loving my red bezeled Ginault (which I am calling my iron rover). The one downside is I don't have a spring bar tool narrow enough to fit into the slits, so I can't get the bracelet off. I hate wearing a bracelet while working on my laptop, and I'm on work from home for a month and a half, so the iron rover will get weekend duty for a while. It's a real shame because I really want to wear it everyday

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

carbon_dragon said:


> I'm not really sure why the shills are an issue since you'd think that's what forums are for.


No, that is exactly what they're not for.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Actually, out of all the allegations regarding Ginault, the puppet account thing is really the most troubling in my mind. 

It isn't like it was simply a false front account designed to argue with detractors (although that is clearly one aspect of the puppet account use case). I am actually more troubled by the use of two separate puppet accounts to interact with each other as if they were different people.

For example, I remember reading puppet account #1 inviting puppet account #2 to meet at a coffee shop so the watch could be examined in person. 

Normally I would see this as an example of a positive WUS enthusiast exchange. Now it appears to be some kind of social engineering / stealth advertising as a way to bump threads and post photos.

Ironically, this manipulative practice has done more to influence my opinion to the negative than anything posted by that anonymous blogger or any WUS ax grinder. 

I still like the watch for what it is. I still can report nothing but professional dealings with the brand both during the sales transaction and for customer service.

If this stuff is coming from a brand partner or employee, I hope they can come to the realization that it is far better to just post updates and photos from a normal brand user account than through some manipulative stealth strategy.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

My ORII really has me thinking of getting a 116600. Unfortunately, the 116600 has that date window and lacks the svelte thickness of the ORII.

But I just love that fully graduated ceramic bezel and classic lines of the 5-digit sub.

I'm this close to making a decision, but will probably wait to see what the crown and its sister company put out this year.

As to the ORII, I love it so much it has hardly left my wrist since getting it (which really says something with my collection), but I am still not a fan of the SW200 beating inside it. I'm loathe to wind the movement lest I end up damaging it, and it doesn't really keep time that well, running quite a bit slower when worn for a couple days. 

If I keep it, I will probably get an ETA movement switched in, and possibly add a white or silver seconds hand in the process.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

carbon_dragon said:


> I'm not really sure why the shills are an issue since you'd think that's what forums are for


Let me try this again...

Don't confuse people who shill (an action) with shills (an individual).

Don't confuse people who troll (an action) with trolls (an individual).

Some 'fanboys' shill (an action) and some 'haters' troll (also an action) but that doesn't necessarily make then shills and trolls. Both will receive warnings, temp-bans, and permanent-bans where appropriate to keep the peace here.

For the record, the shill (an individual) accounts I have banned (6 so far) belong to *the same person*. Pretending to be someone else *is dishonest*...rabidly promoting your product while pretending to be someone else *is unethical* and against the spirit of this community. I can close and unapprove every thread about their product in retaliation but that also goes against the spirit of this community.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

CMSgt Bo said:


> Let me try this again...
> 
> Don't confuse people who shill (an action) with shills (an individual).
> 
> ...


Banning 6 accounts from the same person suggests they are not only unethical, but that they are also not quite the sharpest knives in the drawer.

You'd think someone would get the message after one or two bans.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Ryeguy said:


> Banning 6 accounts from the same person suggests they are not only unethical, but that they are also not quite the sharpest knives in the drawer.
> 
> You'd think someone would get the message after one or two bans.


Who knows why some people do what they do. Maybe they think bad publicity is better than no publicity.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

WastedYears said:


> My ORII really has me thinking of getting a 116600. Unfortunately, the 116600 has that date window and lacks the svelte thickness of the ORII.
> 
> But I just love that fully graduated ceramic bezel and classic lines of the 5-digit sub.
> 
> ...


Go get a 16600.

I bought an OR and decided to by a 14060M, which is what I did in the end (and sold the OR).


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## mconlonx (Sep 21, 2018)

Man... if I could figure out a way to sell popcorn in this thread, I might have enough to buy a new Ginault...


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## jsdtx (Nov 4, 2019)

Ryeguy said:


> Banning 6 accounts from the same person suggests they are not only unethical, but that they are also not quite the sharpest knives in the drawer.
> 
> You'd think someone would get the message after one or two bans.


I love the watches and still might get one. Hate to risk the money, but they really look great. I love the blue cobalt one. What scares me is once someone is dishonest, they do not follow traditional rules -- they always push the boundaries and with an automatic watch there is so much that could go wrong. There is no doubt this person is very talented and has a skill that is often not found today. The waiting list demonstrates the following that he has obtained for this new rendition of the watch.


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

jsdtx said:


> I love the watches and still might get one. Hate to risk the money, but they really look great. I love the blue cobalt one. What scares me is once someone is dishonest, they do not follow traditional rules -- they always push the boundaries and with an automatic watch there is so much that could go wrong. There is no doubt this person is very talented and has a skill that is often not found today. The waiting list demonstrates the following that he has obtained for this new rendition of the watch.


Each of us must make up our own minds about any product we might buy in terms of are we happy putting our hard earned into that particular company.

Each of us will have different 'red flags' and tolerance levels to sales strategy and marketing

When I look at Ginault as a product (*personally* I think anyone looking for brand prestige isn't best served by microbrands) I like how many parts (gaskets, bracelets, crown parts) are basically available as off the shelf generic items (the bezel shim in my OR1 came from Cousins UK, I just ordered a spare bracelet* from wholesaleoutlet - which I'm hoping to fit to a different watch I own) which means that should Ginault disappear I/my watch guy shouldn't have any problem getting parts for it.

The OR2 even comes with either a 2824 or a SW200 which are also standard movements that shouldn't present any problems for a watch maker.

I've had petty issues with two other microbrands where one told me they couldn't get a pendant tube any longer and another couldn't sell me a bracelet screw, only a whole new bracelet.

I like that I don't face this issue with Ginault.

I could merrily live without all the negativity that Ginault have brought upon themselves and the to-be-expected crusader brigade banging their drums about the brand on all the forums.....

.....but not so much that I'm not very happy with what is at the end of the day, only a watch, a watch that in my case is over two years old, bought secondhand for Steinhart money, keeps time to around 1 sec a day and has build quality that's about on par with a Tudor. (But with a better bracelet)

All of that (cheap and good) is way more important to me than anything else.

But I *truly* understand that OMMV

*its even listed as an aftermarket Ginault bracelet! There's an irony there no? Or at least a plagiarism of a plagiarism


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## colecoop56 (Jul 12, 2013)

adzman808 said:


> Each of us must make up our own minds about any product we might buy in terms of are we happy putting our hard earned into that particular company.
> 
> Each of us will have different 'red flags' and tolerance levels to sales strategy and marketing
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Thats how I view it. Also Ginaults now are one of the few watches I see in the sale section that sell almost instantly. They seem to be holding value very well now and I believe the value will go up.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

The only thing I would like to say about the Ginault ORII is that it is an extremely hig quality well made piece. I own Omegas, Grand Seiko, and Tudor among other brand and this thing is on par with them all. This is my second Ginault, I had an OR I which was awesome in its own right, I regretted selling it so i jumped on the pre-order when the OR II came out, and I'm glad I did! I received the OR II (mine has the ETA 2824) on 3/16, and wore it every day since then and mine is running +1.6 seconds a day! I know there is a lot of controversy over the brand but quite frankly I couldn't care less. The watch is very well made, accurate, and I feel it is worth the asking price and a bargain with the ETA regulated to COSC specs. To each his own, if you are offended by the brand or it's alleged practices, don't buy it, but as for me I'll take mine and will keep and enjoy it this time!


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## itibiertia0887 (Feb 24, 2020)

Len1738 said:


> The only thing I would like to say about the Ginault ORII is that it is an extremely hig quality well made piece. I own Omegas, Grand Seiko, and Tudor among other brand and this thing is on par with them all. This is my second Ginault, I had an OR I which was awesome in its own right, I regretted selling it so i jumped on the pre-order when the OR II came out, and I'm glad I did! I received the OR II (mine has the ETA 2824) on 3/16, and wore it every day since then and mine is running +1.6 seconds a day! I know there is a lot of controversy over the brand but quite frankly I couldn't care less. The watch is very well made, accurate, and I feel it is worth the asking price and a bargain with the ETA regulated to COSC specs. To each his own, if you are offended by the brand or it's alleged practices, don't buy it, but as for me I'll take mine and will keep and enjoy it this time!


You would rate this Ginault watch its workmanship/quality on par with GS, Tudor and Omega?


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

itibiertia0887 said:


> You would rate this Ginault watch its workmanship/quality on par with GS, Tudor and Omega?[/QUOTE
> 
> OK I'm not going to go bat crazy overboard.....maybe not the same as those brands exactly, but very well made and high quality. The bezel action is superb the finishing is excellent and high grade, and so far the performance is spot on accurate. It's definitely on par with Oris and I would bet its above them in the movement category. My overall point is its a damn good watch for the money and not worlds away from Tudor, Omega, GS etc....


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Len1738 said:


> itibiertia0887 said:
> 
> 
> > You would rate this Ginault watch its workmanship/quality on par with GS, Tudor and Omega?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

My ORII arrived today fitted with the aluminium bezel insert and an ETA 2824 which was my preference over the Sellita, I've had it on the wrist for the last two hours and here are some of my early impressions :


The watch head compares very favourably with my pre ceramic Sub and Sea Dweller
The quality of the gloss dial and applied markers are amazing, dare I say it has the edge on my Sub and SD
The hands are very good quality and have excellent polishing.
The tolerances of everything are extremely tight.
The crystal and AR coating are top notch, offering superb clarity at any viewing angle.
The bezel action really is up there with the best that I've owned, it has the same tactile feel as the Ceramic Submariner but is a touch more buttery smooth and has no back play whatsoever.
The bracelet is not of the same quality as the rest of the watch, the clasp is a tad sharp all over, and the closing action offers nowhere near the reassuring bank vault clunk of a real glide lock clasp. Saying that, the end link fit is very good.
Setting the time threw me off initially as turning the crown forwards made the hands rotate backwards, gearing fitted the wrong way round perhaps ?
I'll post some pics over the next few days of the watch alongside some of my others and follow up with other observations of the watch once I've lived with it for a few days.


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## btcity380 (Sep 17, 2019)

woodruffm said:


> My ORII arrived today fitted with the aluminium bezel insert and an ETA 2824 which was my preference over the Sellita, I've had it on the wrist for the last two hours and here are some of my early impressions :
> 
> 
> The watch head compares very favourably with my pre ceramic Sub and Sea Dweller
> ...


Thank you for this detailed first impression review.

I picked up a Steinhart 39 as my first Sub homage. I love it and it's a solid watch for the price. But when compared next to my buddy's SubC the difference is immediate.

I love the SubC but my my current situation just doesn't allow me to drop $10K on a watch, that would be irresponsible, so it does seem like the Ocean Rover is the logically next step.

Question, since you already have the pre-ceramic Sub and the SD, what is it about the Ocean Rover that speaks to you and prompted the decision to buy?


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

btcity380 said:


> Thank you for this detailed first impression review.
> 
> I picked up a Steinhart 39 as my first Sub homage. I love it and it's a solid watch for the price. But when compared next to my buddy's SubC the difference is immediate.
> 
> ...


I've been lucky enough to own quite a few mid tier and high (ish) end divers over the last 5 years, but ultimately I consolidated and bought a SD 16600 around 3 years ago. Over the past 3 years, some have come and gone but the SD has remained and has become my favourite watch out of the watches I own or have owned.

The pre ceramic case shape just sings to me, and that's why I was drawn to the Ginault, and hopefully not to sound like a pretentious knob but my idea was that I wanted something which was very close not only in style cues to the pre ceramic Rolex but also in quality, that would fly under the radar and I could wear as my everyday beater.

Calling it a beater is probably doing it a disservice as quality wise the watch is right up there.

Anyway a quick couple of pics alongside my black divers :


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Shizmosis said:


> Unfortunately, my only two months old ORII ceramic had to go back to Ginault for warranty claim. My ceramic bezel insert had also these dark spots in the triangle.
> 
> Ginault was very prompt to react to my claim. Nevertheless, I could not use their EU Service Point in Berlin. Instead, I needed to send the watch back from Europe to the US as they want to report all these cases in their HQ in the US.
> 
> ...


Guys - any thoughts on that?


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Shizmosis said:


> Unfortunately, my only two months old ORII ceramic had to go back to Ginault for warranty claim. My ceramic bezel insert had also these dark spots in the triangle.
> 
> Ginault was very prompt to react to my claim. Nevertheless, I could not use their EU Service Point in Berlin. Instead, I needed to send the watch back from Europe to the US as they want to report all these cases in their HQ in the US.
> 
> ...


There's talk on the FB group that the new ceramic insert is glued in and quite likely to snap if removed.

I don't know if the same is true if one has an ORII with an aluminium insert

As the bezel ratcheting mechanism appears to be different on the ORII, it might (*might*) mimic the 6 digit Subs and have the bezel retained by a gasket, which on the Rolex you're supposed to change every time you take the bezel off

But either way I can't imagine that it's a big job for Ginault...

OT... but it's a little odd in a way... when the ORI landed it didn't seem to take people any time at all to start disassembling them and modding them, but it seems that no one's yet to even have the back off an ORII yet, let alone start inspecting the bezel mechanism (I might have missed it to be fair, my sole exposure to Ginault is this thread and the FB group)


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

I actually replaced ceramic insert by aluminium insert on my ORII and I confirm that it's not as easy as for ORI.
>> When poping off the bezel, the crystal can also pop-off due the bezel retainer system (hytrel gasket)
>> Then need to be careful of the ball bearing system in order to avoid any missing parts (tiny balls & springs). You can spend hard time retrieving them on the floor...
>> At last, ceramic insert is glued on the bezel. It can crack during removal process...

To summarize, insert replacement is a much more risky operation on ORII than on ORI for a simple guy like me.

Now the question: Why did this guy replace ceramic insert by aluminium insert ??? :roll::roll:


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

toto453 said:


> I actually replaced ceramic insert by aluminium insert on my ORII and I confirm that it's not as easy as for ORI.
> >> When poping off the bezel, the crystal can also pop-off due the bezel retainer system (hytrel gasket)
> >> Then need to be careful of the ball bearing system in order to avoid any missing parts (tiny balls & springs). You can spend hard time retrieving them on the floor...
> >> At last, ceramic insert is glued on the bezel. It can crack during removal process...
> ...


Were you able to do it and reuse the gasket/bezel retainer?

Does the aluminium insert fit in with friction (like a 5 digit sub/ORI) or does that need gluing in too?


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Yes I was able to reuse the gasket (Be careful, the gasket is chamfered >> it shall be installed in the good way).
The aluminium insert does not need to be glued, it fits like on a standard 5-digits insert.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

adzman808 said:


> There's talk on the FB group that the new ceramic insert is glued in and quite likely to snap if removed.
> 
> I don't know if the same is true if one has an ORII with an aluminium insert
> 
> ...


Thank you for your detailed feedback.

So I hope Ginault does not really need 6 to 8 weeks for changing out a bezel insert. Especially, as I had the watch only for 2 months in my possession.


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

This watch exceeded my expectations, absolutely gorgeous! The anti glare is awesome.


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> This watch exceeded my expectations, absolutely gorgeous! The anti glare is awesome.


My thouights exactly it definitely exceeded my expectations also! Very high quality watch and hard to beat at this price point!


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

marinemaster said:


> This watch exceeded my expectations, absolutely gorgeous! The anti glare is awesome.


My thoughts exactly it definitely exceeded my expectations also! Very high quality watch and hard to beat at this price point!


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## itibiertia0887 (Feb 24, 2020)

Len1738 said:


> itibiertia0887 said:
> 
> 
> > You would rate this Ginault watch its workmanship/quality on par with GS, Tudor and Omega?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

*OCEAN-ROVER 180165C1LN*

Still Enjoying my 2 year old OR :-!:-!:-!


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

*Re: OCEAN-ROVER 180165C1LN*

Just an update on my ORII, I've had it on wrist for two weeks, it's the ETA2824 version and it is running +1.7 secs per day!! Outstanding watch with outstanding timekeeping!


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## patliean1 (Apr 2, 2020)

Arrived Monday, ordered Nov 13th. ETA movement. GSL. So far averaging -3 secs a day.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

patliean1 said:


> Arrived Monday, ordered Nov 13th. ETA movement. GSL. So far averaging -3 secs a day.
> 
> View attachment 15001009


That looks fantastic! I'm really struggling with which OR to get in terms of bezel material, lume color and cyclops/no cyclops. I've got a sub ND ceramic so am thinking definitely don't get white lume/nd/ceramic combo. But beyond that I'm lost they all look incredible.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

patliean1 said:


> Arrived Monday, ordered Nov 13th. ETA movement. GSL. So far averaging -3 secs a day.
> 
> View attachment 15001009


That looks fantastic! I'm really struggling with which OR to get in terms of bezel material, lume color and cyclops/no cyclops. I've got a sub ND ceramic so am thinking definitely don't get white lume/nd/ceramic combo. But beyond that I'm lost they all look incredible.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Has anyone done or seen a no date with ceramic and gold sand lume?


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Has anyone done or seen a no date with ceramic and gold sand lume?












Quite a few on the Facebook group

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

MikeyRobez said:


> Quite a few on the Facebook group
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perfect that was what I was looking for appreciate it not a member of that group (not a big FB guy)


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Perfect that was what I was looking for appreciate it not a member of that group (not a big FB guy)


I hadn't used Facebook in a very long time, I only went on to send a message to John to preorder and ended up joining the Ginault group. That's still all I use it for lol

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rhorya (Mar 19, 2017)

So, i had to see for myself what the hype was about this watch. I wasn't interested in any watch company touting their first in-house movement or even assembling a clone here in the US, but when Ginault offered this with an option for a name brand movement i got interested. Well from the moment i handled this watch and really looked it over it is impressive as to the amount of quality in the overall fit and finish of the watch head and bracelet. The bracelet is indeed a very well executed design. I was very pleased after a few days of wearing the watch to note that it was keeping excellent time, to which as i was comparing to the time specs card that came with the watch i was surprised to see the card stated that the movement was an eta 2824-2. I thought this has to be a mistake. I expected and had ordered the Sellita. I wasn't even aware that Ginault was considering using an eta. So i contacted Ginault and asked them to verify if what i had was true, they said it was due to that they had a number of eta movements and that it was the luck of the draw as to whether you got an eta or a Sellita. Well my personal value of the watch is now Top Shelf! Mind you i had high praise for the watch before knowing it had an eta in it. So, my parting summary wrapup, having had a Rolex submariner and comparing the value of the watches from a viewpoint of what you get for the price, the Ginault Ocean Rover is a better sub style watch. Im going to enjoy wearing this one for a long time.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

OR 2 Avengers Edition 









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

Mr Auto said:


> OR 2 Avengers Edition
> 
> 
> 
> ...


looks great, how do you like it? What is your wrist size?


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## lilreddivinghood (Apr 17, 2008)

Changing the subject......


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

dorningarts said:


> looks great, how do you like it? What is your wrist size?


Enjoying it so far, wearing it more now that the suns out.

6.5 inch wrist. It fits well but because my wrists are so skinny I have to wear it below the bone (which I'm not used to) otherwise it wears tall...too tall. Again the glidelock helps me get the exact fit so its not that bad.

Think I'm gonna experiment with some straps by everest and rubber B over the summer.

Great watch though overall.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## MikeyRobez (Nov 20, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> It fits well but because my wrists are so skinny I have to wear it below the bone (which I'm not used to) otherwise it wears tall...too tall. Again the glidelock helps me get the exact fit so its not that bad.


I have a similar issue with my wrist. I hope this is okay when it comes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DevilDogDoc (Oct 22, 2017)

Still dead sexy, keeping +-1 spd for me..... couldn't be happier


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Fade mod


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Not sure about that bezel


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Gorgeous, the anti glare treatment is outstanding on the OR II ! Perfect legibility from any angle! 
I dont have premium so i cant upload original, it seems the pic quality is lower here compared to original on my phone.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

marinemaster said:


> Not sure about that bezel


Its my travel watch


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Its my travel watch


I see, got it.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Anyone ever asked for a custom one without the red second hand? How did it go?


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

I asked and Ginault answered that red second hand was the brand signature. So no possible to get another second hand...


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

toto453 said:


> I asked and Ginault answered that red second hand was the brand signature. So no possible to get another second hand...


I wonder if they need to insist on it from a legal/sufficient differentiation standpoint


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

RJS296 said:


> I wonder if they need to insist on it from a legal/sufficient differentiation standpoint


Why would they need to?? Steinhart and Squale make similar homages complete with Mercedes handsets, as do many other manufacturers both big brand and micro brand.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Darwin said:


> Why would they need to?? Steinhart and Squale make similar homages complete with Mercedes handsets, as do many other manufacturers both big brand and micro brand.


Yeah true, though even with Squale they are not using the exact 5 digit sub case like Ginault is. That Ginault uses different hands might be required since their case is 1:1? I'm just saying I bet there has to be some differentiation for a homage to be legally acceptable. Not sure what level of differentiation is needed. Obviously it doesn't need to be much. Though I wonder also if design patents expire or something after a period of time.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

RJS296 said:


> Yeah true, though even with Squale they are not using the exact 5 digit sub case like Ginault is. That Ginault uses different hands might be required since their case is 1:1? I'm just saying I bet there has to be some differentiation for a homage to be legally acceptable. Not sure what level of differentiation is needed. Obviously it doesn't need to be much. Though I wonder also if design patents expire or something after a period of time.


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

lilreddivinghood said:


> Changing the subject......


Ah, the token "meathead douche poster". It is it "missed the point entirely guy"?

Sent from my BNTV460 using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


>


Not sure what this means. Guess this has been discussed before and you're tired of it? Sorry, it is of interest to me. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings about Ginault (which I like btw). I'll try to find other discussion on it though if it's been covered too much already.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

RJS296 said:


> Not sure what this means. Guess this has been discussed before and you're tired of it? Sorry, it is of interest to me. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings about Ginault (which I like btw). I'll try to find other discussion on it though if it's been covered too much already.


Give or take a specific functional part of a design that may have a patent, the answer is the name on the dial

Rotating bezels, Mercedes hands, dashes/dots/triangles and even easy adjustable bracelets are now featured on many, many watches. Parts (such as bezel inserts, pendant tubes, gaskets) that are aftermarket yet fit on to OEM watches are common place and are legally sold from many bricks and mortar establishments


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Not sure what this means. Guess this has been discussed before and you're tired of it? Sorry, it is of interest to me. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings about Ginault (which I like btw). I'll try to find other discussion on it though if it's been covered too much already.


Discuss what you like... It's the reason were all here in the first place.

Your assumption was a fair one. Ginault are unable to stamp the clasp with thier logo for the same reason you mentioned. However I doubt this extends to the hands of the watch.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

Gen 2 absolutely love it !!!
The pics are much higher quality and sharper but wont let me upload here.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Discuss what you like... It's the reason were all here in the first place.
> 
> Your assumption was a fair one. Ginault are unable to stamp the clasp with thier logo for the same reason you mentioned. However I doubt this extends to the hands of the watch.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks for the support! 

I've been looking at all of the pictures and honestly am lost on which version of the OR to get they all look beautiful


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Thanks for the support!
> 
> I've been looking at all of the pictures and honestly am lost on which version of the OR to get they all look beautiful


it's a tough decision for sure. the amount of customisation John offers doesn't help at all 

I've seen some stunners posted here and it definitely made me question my decision a few times but im happy i picked what i picked they all look great when its all said n done.

If you're struggling, consider the safe option (smurf lume, no date).










Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

I would say, if you like simple 16610 design with a bit of vintage look, go for OR1, and if you are more upgrade oriented go for OR2, this one is more of a mix.

Question: Case sides seems to be sharper (less rounded by chamfers) on OR2 than on OR1, anyone can confirm ?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

RJS296 said:


> Not sure what this means. Guess this has been discussed before and you're tired of it? Sorry, it is of interest to me. Didn't mean to hurt your feelings about Ginault (which I like btw). I'll try to find other discussion on it though if it's been covered too much already.


Yeah, it was discussed many times before.

No feelings hurt. 

Had an ORI, which I loved. The ORII looks fantastic as well. If I had to pull the trigger, my choice would be an ORII no date blue lume with the aluminium insert.

But there is no wrong choice. ;-)


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> it's a tough decision for sure. the amount of customisation John offers doesn't help at all
> 
> I've seen some stunners posted here and it definitely made me question my decision a few times but im happy i picked what i picked they all look great when its all said n done.
> 
> ...


I have the same and love it.









Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Yeah, it was discussed many times before.
> 
> No feelings hurt.
> 
> ...


Cheers. Out of curiosity, which version of the OR1 did you have? Is your OR2 choice different?


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> it's a tough decision for sure. the amount of customisation John offers doesn't help at all
> 
> I've seen some stunners posted here and it definitely made me question my decision a few times but im happy i picked what i picked they all look great when its all said n done.
> 
> ...


Super beautiful. I think I am leaning ceramic no date actually - just not sure of the sand or smurf. Oddly from pics I think the sand works really well with the ceramic even though I'd have thought it would be mismatched/better with an older style aluminum look.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

RJS296 said:


> Cheers. Out of curiosity, which version of the OR1 did you have? Is your OR2 choice different?


I had the blue smurf. Would choose the same one for the ORII.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> I had the blue smurf. Would choose the same one for the ORII.


Very nice


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

Think we will ever see drilled lugs? That is the only thing I would change/add about my OR


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Think we will ever see drilled lugs? That is the only thing I would change/add about my OR


I think that would be a great addition (I struggle to get the bracelet off my ORII more than any other watch in my collection), but my impressions was that once Ginault is done with the ORII orders they were going to discontinue the OR in favor of an original design

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I think that would be a great addition (I struggle to get the bracelet off my ORII more than any other watch in my collection), but my impressions was that once Ginault is done with the ORII orders they were going to discontinue the OR in favor of an original design
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats correct. Not sure if he's still taking orders or just fulfilling the ones he has but this is the final version of the OR.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

I confirm that he still considers the new orders.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Love my ORI









Sent from my STF-L09 using Tapatalk


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## marinemaster (Apr 23, 2006)

The more I wear my ORII the more I like it. The ceramic bezel makes it so. Is one of those things that cameras will never be able to capture. To describe it is a lot like pearl white which has a certain effect to it compared to plain white. Is a pleasure to look at it.


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## kovy71 (Nov 19, 2017)

Hi all, can anyone give me the email of Ginault? I scratched the crystal on my ORI and would like order a new one. Thanks!!


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Why don't you try looking for it at ginault.com?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

EDIT: has been solved.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

For those not in the Facebook group, the moderator there got an update on a few things from John over at Ginault

1) it sounds like they are close on the blue bezel. They have a sample bezel insert that is currently in the mail. They won't know until they see it, but they are hopeful it will be the one. 
2) they are working on a new dive watch called the silent service. For those who don't know they had proposed a model called the silent service in 2011 and had created these renders. I'm not sure if the new watch will resemble this or not, but it is exciting that they are looking at an original model. 








3) the Facebook group moderator asked about a GMT based on the ocean rover and it was described as "very likely"

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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> For those not in the Facebook group, the moderator there got an update on a few things from John over at Ginault
> 
> 1) it sounds like they are close on the blue bezel. They have a sample bezel insert that is currently in the mail. They won't know until they see it, but they are hopeful it will be the one.
> 2) they are working on a new dive watch called the silent service. For those who don't know they had proposed a model called the silent service in 2011 and had created these renders. I'm not sure if the new watch will resemble this or not, but it is exciting that they are looking at an original model.
> ...


Appreciate the update mate. Pretty sure whatever John and his squad come up with next they're gonna knock it right out the park.

I hope they keep the name too, Silent Service sounds badass!

Keep us posted...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Rgstar28 (Dec 27, 2017)

That Silent Service model looks really promising. Fill those big markers and hands with X1-C3 lume!


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> For those not in the Facebook group, the moderator there got an update on a few things from John over at Ginault
> 
> 1) it sounds like they are close on the blue bezel. They have a sample bezel insert that is currently in the mail. They won't know until they see it, but they are hopeful it will be the one.
> 2) they are working on a new dive watch called the silent service. For those who don't know they had proposed a model called the silent service in 2011 and had created these renders. I'm not sure if the new watch will resemble this or not, but it is exciting that they are looking at an original model.
> ...


Gorgeous.

Make it a no date with blue lume and matte ceramic bezel, please!

;-)


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## v1triol (Jul 21, 2015)

badgerracer said:


> For those not in the Facebook group, the moderator there got an update on a few things from John over at Ginault
> 
> 1) it sounds like they are close on the blue bezel. They have a sample bezel insert that is currently in the mail. They won't know until they see it, but they are hopeful it will be the one.
> 2) they are working on a new dive watch called the silent service. For those who don't know they had proposed a model called the silent service in 2011 and had created these renders. I'm not sure if the new watch will resemble this or not, but it is exciting that they are looking at an original model.
> ...


Looks like a 2254.50 & YM crossover, and it looks surprisingly good.


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> For those not in the Facebook group, the moderator there got an update on a few things from John over at Ginault
> 
> 1) it sounds like they are close on the blue bezel. They have a sample bezel insert that is currently in the mail. They won't know until they see it, but they are hopeful it will be the one.
> 2) they are working on a new dive watch called the silent service. For those who don't know they had proposed a model called the silent service in 2011 and had created these renders. I'm not sure if the new watch will resemble this or not, but it is exciting that they are looking at an original model.
> ...


I hope that its a traveller GMT and not an office GMT. I have no use for a quick set 24 hour hand


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

PixlPutterMan said:


> I hope that its a traveller GMT and not an office GMT. I have no use for a quick set 24 hour hand


Short of Ginault using those fabled chinese movements that are supposedly being put into high end knockoffs, I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

WastedYears said:


> Short of Ginault using those fabled chinese movements that are supposedly being put into high end knockoffs, I don't see that happening anytime soon.


It's possible with a modified Sellita SW200, which is what some other manufacturers like Alpina do.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

dfwcowboy said:


> It's possible with a modified Sellita SW200, which is what some other manufacturers like Alpina do.


Sure, but I doubt that'd fit into an OR case as afaik the added module makes the movement quite a bit thicker.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

dfwcowboy said:


> It's possible with a modified Sellita SW200, which is what some other manufacturers like Alpina do.


The Alpina movement still isn't a true traveler's GMT as the date is tied to the GMT hand.

And I agree that using a traveler's GMT movement isn't likely as there just aren't movements readily available that are also reliable/accurate

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

It was just a wish.

Though with ETA having a traveler GMT in the powermatic line now (exclusive to Mido,Tissot,Certina) hopefully the other movement makers will drop a traveler GMT sooner than later.


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## Tonycino (Jan 9, 2013)

I have the jumping hour on a Seiko GMT it’s well executed but I’m not a fan. The jumping GMT hand is awful, not interested. My favorite and I’ve worn for many years is the original Rolex GMT Master where GMT hand is slaved to the hour hand. Just twist the bezel. No fussing with the crown very simple. Once you get used to it it’s very easy to tell the time in both zones. I never needed time for 3 zones. Movements are simpler, thinner, more reliable. For me it’s the only way to fly. I used to travel a lot now not so much, but I still wear my 1675.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

EDIT: Never mind .


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Ntinos_H said:


> I have the same and love it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Altho' i love your watch, is that a Nakamichi cassette deck in the background? 
I love those cassette decks - never owned one but always wanted to....


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> EDIT: Never mind .


Well, I am sorry. It seems like your triangle has also the issue with the corrosive epoxy. Some other customers including myself have the same issue. Ginault is aware of this problem and is exchange the bezel insert as soon as they receive the new adhesive from a Swiss supplier.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Shizmosis said:


> Well, I am sorry. It seems like your triangle has also the issue with the corrosive epoxy. Some other customers including myself have the same issue. Ginault is aware of this problem and is exchange the bezel insert as soon as they receive the new adhesive from a Swiss supplier.


Interesting! I assumed this was just something I picked up from wearing it, but it's due to a manufacturing defect?

I had deleted my post because I contacted their CS and was going to wait to see what advice they had, then come back here.

EDIT: Ginault responded (very quickly I should add!) and confirmed it's the same issue you're referring to. They believe the epoxy is corrosive and chips away the inlay over time, hence the black spots.

For everyone's reference, here's a picture of mine:


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> Interesting! I assumed this was just something I picked up from wearing it, but it's due to a manufacturing defect?
> 
> I had deleted my post because I contacted their CS and was going to wait to see what advice they had, then come back here.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback.

Which repair lead time did they communicate to you?


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Shizmosis said:


> Thank you for your feedback.
> 
> Which repair lead time did they communicate to you?


They said they're still waiting on the new adhesive, which could take around a month. Then quoted the standard repair lead time of 6 - 8 weeks, which starts after they actually receive the adhesive.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> They said they're still waiting on the new adhesive, which could take around a month. Then quoted the standard repair lead time of 6 - 8 weeks, which starts after they actually receive the adhesive.


Oh, I see. My watch is already at Ginaults for 8 weeks...

Did they say something to you when it is the best moment for you to send the watch in?


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Shizmosis said:


> Oh, I see. My watch is already at Ginaults for 8 weeks...
> 
> Did they say something to you when it is the best moment for you to send the watch in?


They seemed to want me to send it now. I want to wait since they're not going to do anything with it until they get the adhesive, so I don't see why they need it so soon. But I also have other watches to wear, so I won't completely miss it. I don't know what I plan to do.

Did they give you any update recently?


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> They seemed to want me to send it now. I want to wait since they're not going to do anything with it until they get the adhesive, so I don't see why they need it so soon. But I also have other watches to wear, so I won't completely miss it. I don't know what I plan to do.
> 
> Did they give you any update recently?


my last update was a few weeks ago. I was informed that they are waiting on the adhesive.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Citizen V said:


> Interesting! I assumed this was just something I picked up from wearing it, but it's due to a manufacturing defect?
> 
> I had deleted my post because I contacted their CS and was going to wait to see what advice they had, then come back here.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what I'm looking at - what is the issue exactly? I believe there is one I'm just not seeing where to look can you help? I've been considering getting a Ginault and I would like to know what I'm getting into


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

RJS296 said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking at - what is the issue exactly? I believe there is one I'm just not seeing where to look can you help? I've been considering getting a Ginault and I would like to know what I'm getting into


It's the small black area next to the lume pip on the bezel insert. There are another 2 on the other side but they're smaller. The inlay chipped because of an incompatible adhesive they used to adhere the pip to the insert.

The defect is still minor on mine compared to what I've now seen on the Ginault Facebook group, although it'll probably worsen over time. Here are some pictures from other owners in the group:


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Okay definitely see it now! Thanks a lot, hope it gets resolved


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

RJS296 said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking at - what is the issue exactly? I believe there is one I'm just not seeing where to look can you help? I've been considering getting a Ginault and I would like to know what I'm getting into


If you look at the white triangle at 12 o'clock on the ceramic bezel insert, you will see that there is a small chip out of the white material next to the lume pip (at about 5:30 on the round lume pip). I have this watch, with date and ceramic, but do not have the issue. Mine was shipped in March, so I'm hoping that any manufacturing defect that might have been causing this had already been dealt with at that point.


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

No issues with my aluminium original!


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## jbsutta (Jun 5, 2007)

That would bug the crap Out of me. Obviously not properly baked ceramic for sure. I may have just lost my appetite for this watch.



Citizen V said:


> It's the small black area next to the lume pip on the bezel insert. There are another 2 on the other side but they're smaller. The inlay chipped because of an incompatible adhesive they used to adhere the pip to the insert.
> 
> The defect is still minor on mine compared to what I've now seen on the Ginault Facebook group, although it'll probably worsen over time. Here are some pictures from other owners in the group:
> 
> ...


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## jbsutta (Jun 5, 2007)

That would bug the crap Out of me. Obviously not properly baked ceramic for sure. I may have just lost my appetite for this watch.



Citizen V said:


> It's the small black area next to the lume pip on the bezel insert. There are another 2 on the other side but they're smaller. The inlay chipped because of an incompatible adhesive they used to adhere the pip to the insert.
> 
> The defect is still minor on mine compared to what I've now seen on the Ginault Facebook group, although it'll probably worsen over time. Here are some pictures from other owners in the group:
> 
> ...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

I'll be keeping a close eye on mine... 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

This is making me glad I opted for an aluminum insert on my ORII 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

Darwin said:


> If you look at the white triangle at 12 o'clock on the ceramic bezel insert, you will see that there is a small chip out of the white material next to the lume pip (at about 5:30 on the round lume pip). I have this watch, with date and ceramic, but do not have the issue. Mine was shipped in March, so I'm hoping that any manufacturing defect that might have been causing this had already been dealt with at that point.


Unfortunately, I don't think they caught this until recently. Mine was also shipped in March. Based on posts in the Facebook group, it looks like Ginault determined the source was the adhesive in mid-April.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

Citizen V said:


> Unfortunately, I don't think they caught this until recently. Mine was also shipped in March. Based on posts in the Facebook group, it looks like Ginault determined the source was the adhesive in mid-April.


I hope you get this sorted quickly and efficiently.

To me, the mark of a good company isn't the production of a perfect product, but rather how well they respond when the inevitable issue does occur.

I think I mentioned earlier that my OR 1 had a movement issue. Ginault addressed it quickly (in watch terms quickly - still took a few weeks) and with adequate communication. I hope you guys have the same experience.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

mtbmike said:


> No issues with my aluminium original!


My OR1 is from 2017 and no such issues. I suspect it's only an issue with certain ceramic insert OR2s


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

dfwcowboy said:


> My OR1 is from 2017 and no such issues. I suspect it's only an issue with certain ceramic insert OR2s


expected. the aluminum lume pip is attached using a different method not involving epoxy....


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

I received this in mid March, no adhesive issues yet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

jbsutta said:


> That would bug the crap Out of me. Obviously not properly baked ceramic for sure. I may have just lost my appetite for this watch.


I have one on order, and was told they have determined it was a corrosive epoxy issue, and a new epoxy is coming, so by the time I receive mine it will be resolved. Suppose to be in June, but the lockdown could delay it


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

I managed to snag an OR2 from a Phase 1 owner who was selling his. Did my 1st accuracy measurement for this watch using my phone app & got a really good result - am very pleased


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I have had my Custom Ginault for a little over 3 months now and I am still absolutely loving it! 









Here are my watch wearing habits over the last 3 months. My OR has absolutely been hogging my wrist time 









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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

badgerracer said:


> Here are my watch wearing habits over the last 3 months. My OR has absolutely been hogging my wrist time


I see you also have a Monta Ocean King. I'm curious as to your opinion of how it compares to the OR.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Avo said:


> I see you also have a Monta Ocean King. I'm curious as to your opinion of how it compares to the OR.


wrong comparison. removed.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Avo said:


> I see you also have a Monta Ocean King. I'm curious as to your opinion of how it compares to the OR.


wrong comparison. removed.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Avo said:


> I see you also have a Monta Ocean King. I'm curious as to your opinion of how it compares to the OR.


Both are great watches. I have the all black version of the Oceanking versus my red and gold bezel'd and GSL OR. I think the extra color is part of why I am getting on with my OR better. But I do think the fit and finish on the Ginault is a touch better than the Monta and I like the slightly smaller size of the Ginault. I never really intended to keep both and I do actually have the Monta up for sale right now. The Monta is a great watch, but the Ginault is a long term keeper

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks! That's useful info.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

I just installed my new Everest Band Steel End Link Leather Strap. As you might be able to tell from the pictures the fit is not bad. I think it's a bit overpriced for what it is, but as there just aren't many straps of this type out there I suppose there isn't much competition. The quality of the leather is quite good although the only description is "ITALIAN VEGETABLE TANNED LEATHER WITH HYPOALLERGENIC LINING". I think it can be assumed whatever tannery this comes from isn't worth mentioning. It has all the appearance of top grain. The strap is quite stiff, so there's definitely going to be some break in time. I'm wearing it a bit tight right now to speed up that process. As a result it's hard to judge comfort as yet, but I suspect this strap will eventually conform quite nicely and be quite comfortable. The brushed stainless buckle is quite beefy and they could have made the holes a bit larger to accommodate it, but in time it should become easier. There's a bit of extra padding towards the lugs. I'm not a big fan of that, but I understand some are.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

Here's a couple more pictures in natural sunlight.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

dfwcowboy said:


> Here's a couple more pictures in natural sunlight.


The fit looks great. I'm not a fan of that particular colour personally but looks like a good quality strap from Everest.

How easy/hard is it to get the bracelet off?

Thanks for sharing.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> The fit looks great. I'm not a fan of that particular colour personally but looks like a good quality strap from Everest.
> 
> How easy/hard is it to get the bracelet off?
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


If you have the bracelet springbar pliers, it's not very hard. As far as the color goes, pretty much all of my other leather/alligator straps are dark in color. My daughter wanted a lighter colored leather strap for the watch I was getting ready for her and after seeing it on here watch I realized I had to get something similar for myself. Certainly Everest offers different colors, but if I had it to do all over again, I'd still go with this color. It shows off the grain of the leather better and offers a nice contrast with the watch.


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## ksant21 (May 10, 2019)

I regrettably sold my Ginault prototype a few months ago (made in USA) version. After missing it, I recently picked up a used Ginault. I thought it was a prototype off the photos since it has the c1 lume and smaller indices/handset, but I noticed some differences that I’m hoping you guys can help me with. 

The reference is 181165c1ln on the card., which is 1 digit off the original prototype. There is no info on their website or online that I can find. 

The dial is also the newer text with the “Kinetic continuous date” under the Ginault. The original prototype just said “continuous date” in larger font. It also has a regular case back without the made in USA stamping. 

Does anyone know if Ginault produce the c1 lume version with the smaller indices and handset after the prototype and before the maxi smurf? The card is dated for of 2017.


----------



## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

dfwcowboy said:


> If you have the bracelet springbar pliers, it's not very hard. As far as the color goes, pretty much all of my other leather/alligator straps are dark in color. My daughter wanted a lighter colored leather strap for the watch I was getting ready for her and after seeing it on here watch I realized I had to get something similar for myself. Certainly Everest offers different colors, but if I had it to do all over again, I'd still go with this color. It shows off the grain of the leather better and offers a nice contrast with the watch.


 Which Pliers do you have?


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Still loving my ORII, in fact it's actually become my daily wearer. I purchased a Rolex half link for the 6 o'clock side of the bracelet, now the clasp is perfectly centred. All the little sharp bits of the bracelet that I mentioned in my initial review have worn to a smooth finish after two months of wear, it's now a supremely comfortable watch.

Anyone heard anything else regards them doing a GMT ?


----------



## ancientsword (Dec 10, 2010)

I just picked up an OR II off the forum this week.

I love it. It is very comfortable to wear.

It is a little weird going back to 40MM's after wearing much larger watches the past few years, but I am adjusting.


----------



## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

dorningarts said:


> Which Pliers do you have?


I have a Chinese knockoff of the Bergeon 6825 with replacement Bergeon tips.


----------



## Josie16 (Jun 20, 2016)




----------



## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)




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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Random question for any ginault owners - anyone tried to fit the bracelet to a Tudor Black Bay 58?


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)

Does anyone know if the bezel on ORII uses click-spring or mechanism similar to super case from Rolex?


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

It's a ball bearing system, as used in newer rolex bezels.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Day 12 of continuous wrist time for my OR I:


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## Bradd_D (Feb 3, 2013)

Is the OR 2 still available from Ginault?


----------



## ccoffin1333 (Apr 18, 2010)

Avo said:


> Day 12 of continuous wrist time for my OR I:
> 
> View attachment 15344033


What app is that? I use Twixt, but always looking for something new. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Watchtracker. I'm happy with it, haven't tried any others.


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Bradd_D said:


> Is the OR 2 still available from Ginault?


Believe so yes but you can email [email protected] and they will confirm.


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## thediesel17 (Nov 30, 2019)

Bradd_D said:


> Is the OR 2 still available from Ginault?


phase 1 is over, they are about to introduce phase 2 (higher price)


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I haven't visited this thread for a couple months....I just checked in and its the same old thing. regardless, my OR1 Smurf cyclops is still one of my favorite watches of all time...amazing amount of craftsmanship and quality for the $$. You guys can keep trying the compare and contrast...but on wrist says it all


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)

Avo said:


> Day 12 of continuous wrist time for my OR I:
> 
> View attachment 15344033


My OR2 is about 95 seconds slow after 2 weeks, sitting mostly at Boxy winder. Not bad, but not great either.


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> I haven't visited this thread for a couple months....I just checked in and its the same old thing. regardless, my OR1 Smurf cyclops is still one of my favorite watches of all time...amazing amount of craftsmanship and quality for the $$. You guys can keep trying the compare and contrast...but on wrist says it all
> View attachment 15348623


I agree. If anyone ever asks about Ginault and all the shenanigans on the web about it, the best thing I could say would be on its own, just as a watch without knowing anything about, it's a damn good deal and great quality.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

action3500 said:


> My OR2 is about 95 seconds slow after 2 weeks, sitting mostly at Boxy winder. Not bad, but not great either.


Doesn't say much about how it will perform on wrist. All watches perform differently depending on what position they are in. In a winder the watch is in the crown right position. COSC (or Ginault) doesn't even check that position for certification and rarely will the watch be in that position on wrist unless you are looking straight at it with your wrist up.


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

I Love them

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Right now, I am wondering if there is any compatible ceramic black bezel for this watch with only 15 minutes marking... Anyone knows ?


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

toto453 said:


> Right now, I am wondering if there is any compatible ceramic black bezel for this watch with only 15 minutes marking... Anyone knows ?


The new sub bezel might fit you'll have to look into it, but acquiring one wont be easy.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Mr Auto said:


> The new sub bezel might fit you'll have to look into it, but acquiring one wont be easy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Are you sure it fits ? I heard 116610 insert was not the same dimensions as for 16610 sub


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

toto453 said:


> Are you sure it fits ? I heard 116610 insert was not the same dimensions as for 16610 sub


Nope not sure at all thats why I said you'd need to look into it

You could be right in what you're saying though. Email John over at Ginault he'll be able to tell you more.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jprangley said:


> I Love them
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's the watch on the left in this picture? Ginault's version of the SD?


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

KingKF1221 said:


> What's the watch on the left in this picture? Ginault's version of the SD?


Left is the OR2, right is the OR1. OR2has the new bezel like today's Rolex.


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

Has anyone had any recent communication with John? I sent my OR2 in about a month ago to get the adhesive problem fixed and about a week or so ago sent an email to John asking for an update and haven’t heard back, he’s usually quite responsive so I thought I asked here to see if anyone might have some news, TIA!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

qiao.feng said:


> Has anyone had any recent communication with John? I sent my OR2 in about a month ago to get the adhesive problem fixed and about a week or so ago sent an email to John asking for an update and haven't heard back, he's usually quite responsive so I thought I asked here to see if anyone might have some news, TIA!


I just heard from him the other day. I'm still waiting on my blue bezeled OR-II... Supposedly in the final stages. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> I just heard from him the other day. I'm still waiting on my blue bezeled OR-II... Supposedly in the final stages.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Maybe he's just busy finishing up the last orders, hopefully you'll get yours soon, have you seen a picture of the finished blue bezel? I'd be interested in that tbh


----------



## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

No not yet... "finalizing it." I thought I was the only one holding out. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

If you guy's haven't seen it yet here's the case for Ginaults new project.

Hard to tell how it will end up, but I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

They answered a question in one of the comments on the Instagram post, said the "time frame is later this year" so we won't have to wait too long.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

No crown guards!
I like this one already


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> If you guy's haven't seen it yet here's the case for Ginaults new project.
> 
> Hard to tell how it will end up, but I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops


Promising...


----------



## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

6538 homage? 6542 homage?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Darwin said:


> 6538 homage? 6542 homage?


I think they are saying this will be a more original design. The case definitely still looks to be more Rolex big crown inspired, but I have a feeling the dial layout will be more unique

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> I think they are saying this will be a more original design. The case definitely still looks to be more Rolex big crown inspired, but I have a feeling the dial layout will be more unique
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They told me original design too. Isn't it being called the secret service? And there's a design/prototype out there somewhere.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ProjectQuattro (Jun 2, 2016)

toto453 said:


> Are you sure it fits ? I heard 116610 insert was not the same dimensions as for 16610 sub


Just at a glance I don't see that matching up. Obviously I could easily be wrong but the proportions look just fractionally off.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> I think they are saying this will be a more original design. The case definitely still looks to be more Rolex big crown inspired, but I have a feeling the dial layout will be more unique
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't make the dial too busy, just 1-2 lines...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Don't make the dial too busy, just 1-2 lines...


Agreed.

If this Render is anything to go by I think we'll be ok.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Mr Auto said:


> Agreed.
> 
> If this Render is anything to go by I think we'll be ok.
> 
> ...


I would 100% buy this even if I'd prefer a more vintage looking bezel insert. 
Am I the only one to vastly prefer aluminum Vs ceramic?


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Seppia said:


> I would 100% buy this even if I'd prefer a more vintage looking bezel insert.
> Am I the only one to vastly prefer aluminum Vs ceramic?


I like the concept too. I had an OR1 a couple of years ago and it was the watch that made me realize I like the diver design and started to understand the attraction to the Rolex sub. Loved the build quality and how it wore.

In the end I sold it to get something else. Now have a Tudor BB58 blue and am looking for high quality cheaper watch to go with it, but want something less of a homage than what the OR is. So this new watch will be high on my list! Looking forward to seeing the final design. Hope they keep roughly the same dimensions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I have seen people take pictures of Grand Seiko's on books to show the Zaratsu polishing. My Ginault doesn't do to bad for itself (other than the poor quality of my photography) 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> Agreed.
> 
> If this Render is anything to go by I think we'll be ok.


My 2nd Ginault if this comes to fruition. Crown looks a lot like the one on the IG image


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Seppia said:


> I would 100% buy this even if I'd prefer a more vintage looking bezel insert.
> Am I the only one to vastly prefer aluminum Vs ceramic?


Nope. Aluminum all the way. Never liked ceramic bezel inserts


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Looking good, but no drilled lug. Shame. Hope it has domed crystal and underside AR coating


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Porsche993 said:


> Looking good, but no drilled lug. Shame. Hope it has domed crystal and underside AR coating
> View attachment 15391703


It's 2020, and still no drilled lugs?


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

lvt said:


> It's 2020, and still no drilled lugs?


I agree that drilled lugs are more convenient if you like to swap out the strap/bracelet often but its hard to argue they look better. If I were a watch builder and spent all that time and effort to get the case finishing just right only to have a hole right in the middle would probably make me want to puke.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

lvt said:


> It's 2020, and still no drilled lugs?


not required. easy to pop out the bracelet or strap with a tool. comes out very easily. Blind holes are better esp. as jarlaxle stated - after doing a bang-up job polishing the case nobody wants to see a hole on the outside....


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

bombaywalla said:


> not required. easy to pop out the bracelet or strap with a tool. comes out very easily. Blind holes are better esp. as jarlaxle stated - after doing a bang-up job polishing the case nobody wants to see a hole on the outside....


I guess I'm a nobody  Anyway, probably 90% of watch taste is about what we like/prefer - not what is "required".


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

hidden by leaves said:


> I guess I'm a nobody  Anyway, probably 90% of watch taste is about what we like/prefer - not what is "required".


Ok. but you will have to agree - looks-wise, not having 4 holes in the watch case looks better....


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## hidden by leaves (Mar 6, 2010)

bombaywalla said:


> Ok. but you will have to agree - looks-wise, not having 4 holes in the watch case looks better....


I do agree... for some watches. I guess I was referring to dive/tool watches where (for me) it's functional and I like it and so don't mind the less-elegant appearance.


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

The bracelet on the OR is very difficult to R & R -- drilled lugs sure would help


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Plus drilled lugs are in keeping with the vintage case shape. The G is afterall a homage to an older gen Rolex tool watch and its hardly the last word in F&F in any case. Would I want them on my JLC's, no.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ginault OR1 wearing new boots courtesy of Bulang & Son (love their JPM straps). Still my daily wear tool watch after over 3 years. Never tire of looking at the smurfy OR1


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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Porsche993 said:


> Ginault OR1 wearing new boots courtesy of Bulang & Son (love their JPM straps). Still my daily wear tool watch after over 3 years. Never tire of looking at the smurfy OR1


Great shot, would love to also see it in color. Hard to get a feel for the strap in this one.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

hidden by leaves said:


> I do agree... for some watches. I guess I was referring to dive/tool watches where (for me) it's functional and I like it and so don't mind the less-elegant appearance.


+1

I would also prefer drilled lugs, despite of the "less elegant appearance"


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

Drilled lugs are much more comfortable and much more true to a “vintage” design.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

It would certainly be good to have the option at the time of ordering the watch, as you do with ceramic or aluminium bezel.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

woodruffm said:


> It would certainly be good to have the option at the time of ordering the watch, as you do with ceramic or aluminium bezel.


I will 2nd this - those that want drilled lugs can have them & those that do not want can opt out. I'm wearing my OR2 as I write this post - there's no way i'd want 4 holes ruining the look of the case....
To each his own....


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

I can't see him making 2 seperate cases to be honest but you never know.

I do think he'll offer the option for ceramic/aluminium (blue or black) and date/no date

I wonder if we'll get a GS lumed option?


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

This image shows crown guards so likely incorrect?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

I really like how the date is implemented on the SS prototype. If the new watch follows this theme Ginault will have another winner on their hands and one on my wrist.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Keep in mind that the prototype image above is several years old (years before they made the Ocean Rover even) so I don’t know how close the production secret service will be to that old rendering


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Keep in mind that the prototype image above is several years old (years before they made the Ocean Rover even) so I don't know how close the production secret service will be to that old rendering
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep this is an old rendering so we can probaby expect something even better for the finished product.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes indeed. One things for sure there will be no crown guards and the bezel edge machining appears different.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

Mr Auto said:


> I can't see him making 2 seperate cases to be honest but you never know.
> 
> I do think he'll offer the option for ceramic/aluminium (blue or black) and date/no date
> 
> I wonder if we'll get a GS lumed option?


looks like an Omega Seamaster 300 Big Triangle version.
Many others that compete with it & bee around longer like MKII Project 300, Borealis Estoril & Helson Sharkmaster 300.


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Bezel has that Yachtmaster black bezel vibe


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

If I have to be picky, I find the numbers on the bezel a bit too big.


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## Brekel (Sep 18, 2014)

badgerracer said:


> I have seen people take pictures of Grand Seiko's on books to show the Zaratsu polishing. My Ginault doesn't do to bad for itself (other than the poor quality of my photography)
> 
> 
> 
> ...












This was my OR1. Sold it a few months ago and miss it.


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## AFG08 (Mar 31, 2010)

I’m considering a Ginault as the Squale and Steinhart models just don’t do it for me. Are the Ocean Rover models shown on the Ginault web page the current models? Are these readily available? I think what I want is a blue lume, no date, with ceramic bezel. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## qiao.feng (Oct 31, 2018)

AFG08 said:


> I'm considering a Ginault as the Squale and Steinhart models just don't do it for me. Are the Ocean Rover models shown on the Ginault web page the current models? Are these readily available? I think what I want is a blue lume, no date, with ceramic bezel.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think the best way is for you to email John at Ginault directly and ask your questions because as I understood it, the current OR2 are all sold out with a waitlist for cancellation and such, but I could be wrong


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

AFG08 said:


> I'm considering a Ginault as the Squale and Steinhart models just don't do it for me. Are the Ocean Rover models shown on the Ginault web page the current models? Are these readily available? I think what I want is a blue lume, no date, with ceramic bezel.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Can you elaborate what Steinhart and Squale didn't do it for you?


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## Giedreb (May 11, 2015)

Hello, anyone heard of any updates for the blue bezel version? Been waiting for quite a while now.


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## AFG08 (Mar 31, 2010)

lvt said:


> Can you elaborate what Steinhart and Squale didn't do it for you?


I like Squale except for the dial logos. Can't seem to get past that.
Steinhart's long lugs and dial color that seems to be an off black in a lot of light isn't to my liking. I want a true black. Both seem to be well made watches but Ginault has everything I want so I have sent Ginault an email and see what works out. If nothing is available I may suck it up and go for the Squale.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

qiao.feng said:


> I think the best way is for you to email John at Ginault directly and ask your questions because as I understood it, the current OR2 are all *sold out with a waitlist* for cancellation and such, but I could be wrong


Now that's dedication, when you're even "homaging" Rolex's wait lists.


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)




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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

FWIW I don't believe it is accurate to say the OR2 is sold out. From what I have seen posted in the Facebook group, people are continuing to put down new deposits.


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## AFG08 (Mar 31, 2010)

I ended up putting down a deposit a couple of days ago.


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)

Got a little carried away taking those pictures and dinged the side of the mirror case (even though I was very careful). Been abusing my Seamaster for 13 years and never had that issue, mostly because all edges are chamfered and hide dings well. On OC2 the edges are very sharp, any contact with hard surface (stone, metal, etc.) would probably leave a ding. Tool watch is a tool watch though, but I would be a lot more pissed if I paid $10K+ for Submariner.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Fitted a BC Rubber Nato onto the ORII, loving the change of look.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

woodruffm said:


> Fitted a BC Rubber Nato onto the ORII, loving the change of look.
> 
> View attachment 15415519


Looks great!

Does it have curved ends? What model is it? 

Thanks in advance.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks bud, it's this one : Rubber Nato


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

So I just got my ORII back from service for the paint around the bezel pip chipping off. Was on the wrist for less than a week and it has already started chipping away. Has anyone else had this problem after having it fixed by John?










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

That's not good news at all, especially after having the watch supposedly fixed. I have ordered a ceramic GSL ORII after John contacted me to say a spot had opened up on the waitlist, my only caveat was that the adhesive issue had been fixed which he assured me it had been, your experience has got me thinking it may not have been. I hope they sort it out for you bud.


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

woodruffm said:


> That's not good news at all, especially after having the watch supposedly fixed. I have ordered a ceramic GSL ORII after John contacted me to say a spot had opened up on the waitlist, my only caveat was that the adhesive issue had been fixed which he assured me it had been, your experience has got me thinking it may not have been. I hope they sort it out for you bud.


I emailed him yesterday waiting for a response. In the past he has been super helpful so I hope that continues. I requested that he send me bezel insert that I can have my watchmaker install for me and I'll ship back the damaged one. Hopefully he agrees so I'm not without the watch for another 6 wks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

These stories make me glad I opted for aluminum for my ORII.

I last set the time in early July and it is currently about 20 seconds behind my phone time. This thing has really spoiled me on accuracy. I had a couple of other watches that were running about 20spd fast and I ended up taking them to my local watch guy to get them regulated. Once you get used to Ginault levels of accuracy it is hard to go back!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Which movement do you have?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Avo said:


> Which movement do you have?


Mine has an ETA in it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GT1-Reach (Jun 15, 2016)

guys, my last visit to this thread was a long time ago. 

So, the OR2 is finally out.

Does the "classic" aluminum Rover comes now with a Selitta movement also? 

I remember the bracelet got an update too. Thoughts?


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Another reason to skip ceramic bezels.

So the new in-house design has a name #skyrover. I guess this could the anticipated GMT


__
http://instagr.am/p/CEXtiyKnQVX/


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

Porsche993 said:


> Another reason to skip ceramic bezels.
> 
> So the new in-house design has a name #skyrover. I guess this could the anticipated GMT
> 
> ...


Could be a couple of models. That have both skyrover and silentservice hashtags on this post. 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> Could be a couple of models. That have both skyrover and silentservice hashtags on this post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Crown guards = GMT
No crown guards = Silent Service
?


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

GT1-Reach said:


> Does the "classic" aluminum Rover comes now with a Selitta movement also?


I can't answer your question, but personally I feel their "in-house" 7275 does as good or better than any 2824 or SW200 I've ever owned. My OR1 is 3 years old and still reliably within 2 s/d on wrist just as it has from the beginning and looks every bit as good on the timegrapher as when I got it. I suspect their "in-house" movement is some sort of Asian ETA clone ebauche with upgraded parts. I realize a Swiss movement adds a bit of upscale advertising bonus, but I don't think it adds anything in terms of performance.


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## Citizen V (Jun 29, 2011)

WatchCollector01 said:


> So I just got my ORII back from service for the paint around the bezel pip chipping off. Was on the wrist for less than a week and it has already started chipping away. Has anyone else had this problem after having it fixed by John?


That's really disappointing to see. I just looked over in the Facebook group and it seems more than a few people still had problems after it was supposed to be fixed.

I'm kind of glad I procrastinated and still haven't sent mine in yet.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Dang. Mine went in in early July to sort out a bum movement (ETA 2824 - ran like a champ for about three months and then just stopped running consistently). I sent it in for warranty repair and requested that the insert be changed out... The original insert was unmarred... I guess time will tell. I'm considering buying an alumiium insert from Ginault for it as backup.


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Are OR version 1 still being sold by ginault.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Are OR version 1 still being sold by ginault.


No but there's not much difference between the 2 apart from the updated bracelet, ceramic bezel and sellita/eta movements in favour of thier inhouse calibre.

You can opt for the OR1 aluminium bezel giving you the best of both.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## Ntinos_H (May 25, 2019)

I don't think so, but you could configure an OR2 to look exactly as an OR1 (aluminum bezel, etc.). 

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> No but there's not much difference between the 2 apart from the updated bracelet, ceramic bezel and sellita/eta movements in favour of thier inhouse calibre.
> 
> You can opt for the OR1 aluminium bezel giving you the best of both.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Actually I own the first version. My bazel is a bit scratched. What options are there if I want to replace that?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Actually I own the first version. My bazel is a bit scratched. What options are there if I want to replace that?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Send Jon an email I'm sure he'd be willing to replace it.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Actually I own the first version. My bazel is a bit scratched. What options are there if I want to replace that?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You can buy a replacement directly from them (I did so). Just e-mail them.


----------



## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Actually I own the first version. My bazel is a bit scratched. What options are there if I want to replace that?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


From what I understand, the OR1 bezel is the exact same size as a vintage submariner so there are tons of aftermarket options available. No worries if you want an OEM Ginault one but can also change it up to your hearts content, very easy to swap out. To be clear, I am not speaking from personal experience but that's what I recall others saying.


----------



## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Why do many problems with ceramic bezel?


----------



## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

The adhesive used to affix the pearl to the ceramic bezel in the first run reacts with the platinum fill (paint?) used in the indices and markers such that the triangle in which the pearl sits flakes off... I sent mine in in June and requested that as a proactive step, and to avoid having to ship it back again from Canada in the future, the insert be replaced with the update. Hopefully I won't encounter any problems with it after its return. Lovely watch!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

lvt said:


> It's 2020, and still no drilled lugs?


When was the last time Rolex, Omega, AP, PP had drilled lugs? Yes it's 2020 get with the program.


----------



## justplainlawr (Mar 16, 2019)

action3500 said:


> Got a little carried away taking those pictures and dinged the side of the mirror case (even though I was very careful). Been abusing my Seamaster for 13 years and never had that issue, mostly because all edges are chamfered and hide dings well. On OC2 the edges are very sharp, any contact with hard surface (stone, metal, etc.) would probably leave a ding. Tool watch is a tool watch though, but I would be a lot more pissed if I paid $10K+ for Submariner.


That was a fantastic photo you posted! Sorry to hear about the ding on the case

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AFG08 (Mar 31, 2010)

What has the time frame been for the OR2. When did it replace the OR1? I got on the preorder list a few weeks ago and was told Oct/Nov for delivery. Does that sound realistic?


----------



## bolts40 (Mar 27, 2017)

.









Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

KingKF1221 said:


> When was the last time Rolex, Omega, AP, PP had drilled lugs? Yes it's 2020 get with the program.


Why does Ginault have to copy everything from other watches? If they can have a different set of hands (as they actually do) so they can have drilled lugs too.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

lvt said:


> Why does Ginault have to copy everything from other watches? If they can have a different set of hands (as they actually do) so they can have drilled lugs too.


Thank God they don't. Work on Getting some dexterity in your hands/fingers take off the bracelet....


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Wow! Can we not agree to disagree about drilled lugs and move on? This is silly - big endian vs little endian level silly.


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## Seppia (Sep 1, 2013)

I actually think having drilled lugs would differentiate Ginault, and at the same time please all the vintage fans. 
There seem to be a lot of people that are drawn to the brand due to the five digit proportions of the case. Many of the same people I’m sure would appreciate drilled lugs.


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

I'd pay for drilled lugs as an option on my delayed blue bezel OR2. To each their own. 

Sent as the warp core is ejecti......


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

kgrier said:


> I'd pay for drilled lugs as an option on my delayed blue bezel OR2. To each their own.
> 
> Sent as the warp core is ejecti......


Love the idea of having drilled lugs as an "option"


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

lvt said:


> Why does Ginault have to copy everything from other watches? If they can have a different set of hands (as they actually do) so they can have drilled lugs too.


From what I have read, the OR2 is meant to be how a modern version of a MilSub would look like and be like if Rolex were to make them today.

You mentioned "it's 2020 why still no lug holes", so I was just pointing out lug holes isn't really a design trend for most major brands going into the new era.


----------



## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Seppia said:


> I actually think having drilled lugs would differentiate Ginault, and at the same time please all the vintage fans.
> There seem to be a lot of people that are drawn to the brand due to the five digit proportions of the case. Many of the same people I'm sure would appreciate drilled lugs.


I agree, but personally I like no hole 5-digit case more than the lug holed ones.


----------



## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Anyone know if you can just order a ginault from their site? Confused because I thought it was only OR2 orders now but I go on the site and I can add to cart.


----------



## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Does anyone know if this is an aftermarket insert or Ginault is now making the the none fully graduated inedex style insert like the Sub?


----------



## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

RJS296 said:


> Anyone know if you can just order a ginault from their site? Confused because I thought it was only OR2 orders now but I go on the site and I can add to cart.


Yes, you can order from the website - that website order is an OR1 just to be clear.
OR2 orders are thru John & the wait-list in Phase2.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

bombaywalla said:


> Yes, you can order from the website - that website order is an OR1 just to be clear.
> OR2 orders are thru John & the wait-list in Phase2.


Interesting I thought they were done with OR1

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Its fully graduated, just can't see them in the photo.


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

RJS296 said:


> Interesting I thought they were done with OR1
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought so too but John confirmed OR1 are available at full price per the various selections in their website...


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

bombaywalla said:


> I thought so too but John confirmed OR1 are available at full price per the various selections in their website...


many thanks! Do you know if lead time for production is the same as for the OR2?


----------



## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

RJS296 said:


> many thanks! Do you know if lead time for production is the same as for the OR2?


I'm sorry I do not know that.

if I had to guess I would say yes since it's a very small operation & they are busy fulfilling Ph2 orders. So, your OR1 order will go into the queue.


----------



## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

bombaywalla said:


> I'm sorry I do not know that.
> 
> if I had to guess I would say yes since it's a very small operation & they are busy fulfilling Ph2 orders. So, your OR1 order will go into the queue.


Thanks so much!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MikeCfromLI (Jan 6, 2012)

Removed


----------



## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

I make order Or2 ceramic bezel before 5 days... I wait message from Ginault but nothing yet...
How many days make to answer?


----------



## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

AFG08 said:


> What has the time frame been for the OR2. When did it replace the OR1? I got on the preorder list a few weeks ago and was told Oct/Nov for delivery. Does that sound realistic?


Probably not at this time. Looks like the are still issues with the glue eroding the area around the pip on the ceramic bezel. Mine is delayed

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

Yes they have still problem with pip area...
I put my order 6 days ago but no answer...
Why John late so mutch to answer?


----------



## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

I have a pre-order in for a ceramic GSL with Date OR2 that I was expecting to be shipped by now, the continued reported issues with the adhesive explain why I haven't heard anything yet. I'd rather wait and not have any future issues with the bezel. 

Luckily for me I'm still loving my smurf OR2 with aluminum bezel, it's a cracking watch.


----------



## kostantinos (Aug 6, 2014)

How many days from the order will be answer Ginault? I have order Or2 7 days now but still nothing....


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)




----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

kostantinos said:


> How many days from the order will be answer Ginault? I have order Or2 7 days now but still nothing....


These are made to order and worked on in batches so it's going to take a month or 2 at least!

If John is still working to the same procedure he'll notify you with the shipping info when the watch is ready and on the way. Mine took 5 days to arrive to the UK (pre covid)

If your getting antsy email him and ask for a delivery estimate.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## kman2020 (Sep 21, 2020)

PixlPutterMan said:


> View attachment 15459519


Hi

where did you purchase the jubilee for this watch?


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## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

kman2020 said:


> Hi
> 
> where did you purchase the jubilee for this watch?


Its off a Parnis watch, then a modified an oyster style clasp to fit


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> View attachment 15459519


Question regarding the bezel insert on the OR2 how easy is it to swap out for a different 
insert. Any idea what the size/specs are for this insert? I have an OR2 with a black aluminium 
insert that I would like to try and fit a green insert or even ceramic.

Thanks!


----------



## PixlPutterMan (Aug 5, 2017)

nurpur said:


> Question regarding the bezel insert on the OR2 how easy is it to swap out for a different
> insert. Any idea what the size/specs are for this insert? I have an OR2 with a black aluminium
> insert that I would like to try and fit a green insert or even ceramic.
> 
> Thanks!


Any 5 digit sub insert should work. The OR1 bezel pops off easy. I will say I put a dab of adhesive on that insert as it was not a perfect snap fit

edit: I cannot speak to the ORII, just a heads up I only have experience with the OR1


----------



## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

PixlPutterMan said:


> Any 5 digit sub insert should work. The OR1 bezel pops off easy. I will say I put a dab of adhesive on that insert as it was not a perfect snap fit
> 
> edit: I cannot speak to the ORII, just a heads up I only have experience with the OR1


Thanks for the reply


----------



## kman2020 (Sep 21, 2020)

nurpur said:


> Question regarding the bezel insert on the OR2 how easy is it to swap out for a different
> insert. Any idea what the size/specs are for this insert? I have an OR2 with a black aluminium
> insert that I would like to try and fit a green insert or even ceramic.
> 
> Thanks!


Page 338 first comment answers your question


----------



## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

kman2020 said:


> Page 338 first comment answers your question


Thanks for the pointer - sounds a bit too fiddly for me to attempt.


----------



## mrmorfo (May 5, 2016)

KingKF1221 said:


> When was the last time Rolex, Omega, AP, PP had drilled lugs? Yes it's 2020 get with the program.


Ehm... do you realise that both the Royal Oak and the Nautilus, the two most iconic pieces of these brands (and probably of all horological world along with the Moonwatch and the Sub) have drilled lugs?


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Anyone know the pros and cons of the older domed crystal and the one used on the OR2? Tried looking through countless posts but gave up and hoping someone can provide quick insights/experiences. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Anyone know the pros and cons of the older domed crystal and the one used on the OR2? Tried looking through countless posts but gave up and hoping someone can provide quick insights/experiences.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They still offer the option for a domed crystal on the OR2. both have AR coating so pros/cons are mainly down to aesthetics. You could say that the dome sticks out a little more so is more prone to damage but were talking about sapphire here, it's gonna take a lot to damage it either way.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> They still offer the option for a domed crystal on the OR2. both have AR coating so pros/cons are mainly down to aesthetics. You could say that the dome sticks out a little more so is more prone to damage but were talking about sapphire here, it's gonna take a lot to damage it either way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks! So there's no diff in terms of clarity?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

RJS296 said:


> Thanks! So there's no diff in terms of clarity?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've not handled the domed version but I'm guessing you'll get a some distortion around the edges, typical of domed crystals and the main reason why they're so popular, but I cant see there being any difference in clarity head on.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Mr Auto said:


> I've not handled the domed version but I'm guessing you'll get a some distortion around the edges, typical of domed crystals and the main reason why they're so popular, but I cant see there being any difference in clarity head on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Thanks so much, super helpful!


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

RJS296 said:


> Anyone know the pros and cons of the older domed crystal and the one used on the OR2? Tried looking through countless posts but gave up and hoping someone can provide quick insights/experiences.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You may want to check with John.
I've been emailing him a bit lately about the ORII and the advice I saw in the information for the model was that the domed crystal did not have AR but the new flat crystal did.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Dogs857 said:


> You may want to check with John.
> I've been emailing him a bit lately about the ORII and the advice I saw in the information for the model was that the domed crystal did not have AR but the new flat crystal did.


That was my understanding as well.


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

I have honestly been in and out of this thread for a bit over a year, just reading but in and out. This can read better than a daytime soap script in spots and gets downright mean in others.

My take, well I have been searching for a watch for about two years. I currently wear a Steinhart OVM (version 1) which is a lovely watch and what I was basing my next watch off, and also recently took receipt of a Monta Atlas which I am trying to bond with. I don't think I like white dials but a bit more time will tell. I was all in with Monta, and even stated as such in that thread but every time I looked at their lineup I kept wishing they had an amalgamation of models. If they had gilt hands and indices with a gloss black dial I would never have come back here. Sadly that is just not the case. So I jumped back in here because I always liked the Milsub look and found the new model. I also found out it was now available to more than just previous customers. For reference whenever I look at the OVM I wish it had a date, ceramic bezel and better bracelet.

Enter the ORII. A few emails later and I have just put down a deposit on a GSL version with a black date disc. I am really looking forward to this turning up. Fortunately the deposit model lets me into the game while I put the rest together as COVID took my job away but I've managed to secure another one and the minister for war and finance has approved the purchase. Hopefully my exchange rate holds up over the next few months.

Thanks for everyone who contributed in this thread, the information is all here if you look and that watch is killer.


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

People still supporting this criminal?


----------



## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

murokello said:


> People still supporting this criminal?


Yep.









Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

murokello said:


> People still supporting this criminal?


I am Spartacus

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Anyone had an update yet regards the latest epoxy adhesive issue for the ceramic bezel ?

I have a GSL ORII on pre-order which should have come in last month, I'm assuming that they're running late due to that issue, I have emailed John about an hour ago so will update the thread if I hear back.

I guess I'll have to struggle along with my aluminium bezel ORII whilst I wait


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Same here. Was expecting mine last month as well. John said they are testing mk3 fix and would not provide further delivery date. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Cannot understand why they have this issue. Not really rocket science considering other manufacturers with $200 watches seem to have no issues. Maybe something special in Ginaults ceramic compound 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

murokello said:


> People still supporting this criminal?


You still trolling Ginault threads?


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## JimmyBoots (Apr 26, 2008)

just came across this 7k+ post thread and so far I’m intrigued. Is Ginault still producing the no date watches with vintage lume? Also, do they still do a discount for those watches? 

Sorry if this has been answered previously here but I’m only up to like post 400. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

nurpur said:


> Same here. Was expecting mine last month as well. John said they are testing mk3 fix and would not provide further delivery date.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great, thanks for the update.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

CMSgt Bo said:


> You still trolling Ginault threads?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

JimmyBoots said:


> just came across this 7k+ post thread and so far I'm intrigued. Is Ginault still producing the no date watches with vintage lume? Also, do they still do a discount for those watches?
> 
> Sorry if this has been answered previously here but I'm only up to like post 400.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe they're still taking orders for the ceramic version you can email them directly at [email protected]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JimmyBoots (Apr 26, 2008)

Just sent them a email. I wouldn’t be interested in a ceramic bezel though. I’m one of the few out there that would prefer a Aluminum one. 

I’m more curious than anything else and might be in the market for a “sub” like watch that is higher quality but has zero brand recognition for travel. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

JimmyBoots said:


> Just sent them a email. I wouldn't be interested in a ceramic bezel though. I'm one of the few out there that would prefer a Aluminum one.
> 
> I'm more curious than anything else and might be in the market for a "sub" like watch that is higher quality but has zero brand recognition for travel.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not sure, but I think you can get the aluminum bezel in black on the OR2. They do the blue so worth an ask.


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## JimmyBoots (Apr 26, 2008)

Looks like I will be answering my own question. Just heard back from Ginault and they are only doing discounts for phase 2 OR2 preorders starting at $1,119.00

This is where I bow out and go hit up the Longines sub forum. Bye guys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

RJS296 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nice, is that an OR1 or OR2?


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

nurpur said:


> Nice, is that an OR1 or OR2?


Hello, it's the OR2


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

RJS296 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad to see another OR with the iron man bezel. Mine says hi! 









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

badgerracer said:


> Glad to see another OR with the iron man bezel. Mine says hi!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi yes your photo inspired me!! Thank you so much. I think it is a great combination. Really wanted something a bit more distinguished from Rolex offerings.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

RJS296 said:


> Hello, it's the OR2


Thanks for confirming that. Going through the thread, it appears that the bezel inserts on the OR1 and OR2 are not 
interchangeable. Is that correct or have I misread that? Looking to have some options for my OR2 which has an 
aluminium bezel prefitted. Link from where you obtained yours?
Thanks!


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

nurpur said:


> Thanks for confirming that. Going through the thread, it appears that the bezel inserts on the OR1 and OR2 are not
> interchangeable. Is that correct or have I misread that? Looking to have some options for my OR2 which has an
> aluminium bezel prefitted. Link from where you obtained yours?
> Thanks!


To be honest I'm not sure about bezel fits. I just e-mailed John and described what I wanted.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

So, the build came like this Ginault?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

nurpur said:


> So, the build came like this Ginault?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Correct


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

OK thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## murokello (Aug 3, 2012)

CMSgt Bo said:


> You still trolling Ginault threads?


Can you elaborate Bo? Are we trying to swipe the facts under the carpet? Even WUS stopped the Ginault sponsorship after the revelation that the guy is a fake Rolex maker. Though I understand your reaction when remembering the fact that discussions about this criminal and his sponsorship was censored here.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

murokello said:


> Can you elaborate Bo? Are we trying to swipe the facts under the carpet? Even WUS stopped the Ginault sponsorship after the revelation that the guy is a fake Rolex maker. Though I understand your reaction when remembering the fact that discussions about this criminal and his sponsorship was censored here.


Your 'facts' aren't very factual...

Under the carpet? There are literally dozens of threads on WUS that chronicle Ginault's fall from grace if anyone cares to search for them. We don't need another.

Ginault's sponsorship was terminated for reasons completely unrelated to their previous activities.

On privately owned forums removing rule violations is not censorship, it's bringing posts and discussions into compliance with our Terms of Service and rules.

Those are the facts and if you continue trolling you won't be happy with the outcome.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

nurpur said:


> Thanks for confirming that. Going through the thread, it appears that the bezel inserts on the OR1 and OR2 are not
> interchangeable. Is that correct or have I misread that? Looking to have some options for my OR2 which has an
> aluminium bezel prefitted. Link from where you obtained yours?
> Thanks!


i THINK someone here fitted the Ginault ali insert to their (originally ceramic) OR2

(it's such a nightmare to find the good info on this troll infused thread)

my HUNCH would be... for sure an OR1 ali insert physically fits an OR2... but does it snap in like an OR1 insert or need bonding in like a OR2 insert...? (I dunno)

The OR2 bezel apparently *doesn't* just pop off like an OR1 bezel though..


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

I believe with the OR2 there is a gasket and ball bearings to consider like the ceramic Rolex offerings, rather than a simple bezel to pop off which has a click spring.

I can remember reading (possibly this thread) that someone had managed to do it but it was quite a bit of work, and you'll have to make sure not to damage the gasket whilst you're doing it.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Yeah that rings a bell


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

I found the post with the bezel insert procedure for the OR2. I am not the best with this kind of 
stuff and sounded like a can of worms. One of the good things about the OR1 bezel/ insert was 
that it was pretty straightforward for the likes of me to do. Why change something simple to difficult? 
And the glue issue with the pip............ But all said and done its still a great watch


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Anybody have updates as to when the pip/glue will be resolved and backorders will be sent out?
Thanks


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

I did get a reply back a couple of days ago, probably the same one that you received :

Thank you for checking in, and I apologize for the delayed reply. Both Charles and I have been consumed in product testings this past week.

I am not sure if you are aware but we have been troubled by a ceramic insert's issue. We have recently received a few more reports from customers that received their OR2 (after the June fix) to still have the ceramic insert's IPG inlay eroding at the 12 o'clock position. So we have been investigating this issue locating the missing link. We are now conducting accelerated as well as redundant tests to make sure our *fix 2.0* which we are testing/applying will resolve the issue from the root so customers won't need to worry about it anymore. That said, we are putting the building and shipping of the OR2 ceramic variants on pause until we are 100% sure the ceramic insert is almost bulletproof.

The Ocean Rover II is our first project using a ceramic insert with this level of spec, process, and design which most others would avoid or design around it. It is definitely a humbling experience but rest assured we will resolve this issue permanently.

We apologize for the inconvenience and delay caused.

Sincerely

John


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Yes, that was the exact same reply that I received a couple of week back.


----------



## DEV.Woulf (Jul 29, 2012)

Dogs857 said:


> I was all in with Monta, and even stated as such in that thread but every time I looked at their lineup I kept wishing they had an amalgamation of models. *If they had gilt hands and indices with a gloss black dial* I would never have come back here. Sadly that is just not the case.


Yeah; exactly. That same issue led to me going back and forth nonstop with which Skyquest to purchase. Ended up with the gloss/silver version and it is a beauty in person. Got my gilt fix in with a Lorier so my needs are now covered. The GSL Ocean-Rover is unique with a golden vintage look different from every other diver using old radium so hope I you enjoy it.

Though I'm not a big fan of homage watches I gave the OR 2 a lot of thought. The quality is so close to one of the greatest watches ever with a very sharp ceramic for bonus. I did read all about the main man behind Ginault. Let's just say I like the watch better than I do the designer. Though he refers to many different people in the company I do believe he is handling everything himself using several email addresses. The lack of transparency on social media compared to other companies hurts them but that's par for the course from how it started. In the end I hope everyone gets the adhesive issues fixed and Ginault can come out with something more original. For me, the Ocean-Rover is too close to the Montas to own both. If he can put this quality onto a design truly his own he may give his scrutinized company a reboot it could use.


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Do they offer movement changes to the OR1 if I am willing to pay for it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Skyjuice (Sep 7, 2018)

nurpur said:


> Anybody have updates as to when the pip/glue will be resolved and backorders will be sent out?
> Thanks


I read from Ginault FB someone post that John is hoping to resolve the issue and resume OR2 production by December. Take it with a grain of salt imo.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Skyjuice said:


> I read from Ginault FB someone post that John is hoping to resolve the issue and resume OR2 production by December. Take it with a grain of salt imo.


Thanks for the post 

Still dont understand what this is all about. Its just glue sticking to ceramic. How is it that every other manufacturer - big and small does not have similar issues? Where does this ceramic come from that makes it have these unique properties?
Groan!


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

nurpur said:


> Thanks for the post
> 
> Still dont understand what this is all about. Its just glue sticking to ceramic. How is it that every other manufacturer - big and small does not have similar issues? Where does this ceramic come from that makes it have these unique properties?
> Groan!


It is not glue sticking to ceramic, it has nothing to do with the ceramic, it is the paint they are applying to the pip that is chipping off, or discoloring. They thought it was the epoxy they were using but the problem is still happening. This is a platinum looking paint, and there is some problem with its stability


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

nurpur said:


> Thanks for the post
> 
> Still dont understand what this is all about. Its just glue sticking to ceramic. How is it that every other manufacturer - big and small does not have similar issues? Where does this ceramic come from that makes it have these unique properties?
> Groan!


I feel your pain as I also have one on pre-order, but I'd rather that they take their time and get it right than rush it and introduce a risk of us having to send the watch back in the future for a warranty repair which would result in not having the watch for at least a month or two.


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

I have questions.

I have one of the first batch of OR2's I've not had any issues with the bezel paint as i dont wear it that often but is it worth sending it back anyway so he can apply the fix? 

Also any updates on the blue bezel version? 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

dorningarts said:


> It is not glue sticking to ceramic, it has nothing to do with the ceramic, it is the paint they are applying to the pip that is chipping off, or discoloring. They thought it was the epoxy they were using but the problem is still happening. This is a platinum looking paint, and there is some problem with its stability


I see that from the pictures, but every reference to the issue says that it is down to the epoxy cementing 
the pip to the ceramic. Dont really see how it is leaking out to affect the paint on the triangle. But it is what 
it is and has to be fixed regardless.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

woodruffm said:


> I feel your pain as I also have one on pre-order, but I'd rather that they take their time and get it right than rush it and introduce a risk of us having to send the watch back in the future for a warranty repair which would result in not having the watch for at least a month or two.


Yes, definitely better to get it done and not have to send it back.


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

nurpur said:


> I see that from the pictures, but every reference to the issue says that it is down to the epoxy cementing
> the pip to the ceramic. Dont really see how it is leaking out to affect the paint on the triangle. But it is what
> it is and has to be fixed regardless.


I understand. I owned one and was in contact with Ginault, they were the ones who thought it was the type of epoxy that was reacting with the paint. But they have been unable to fix it, so it could be something else, I suspect the platinum paint is simply not stable, and they should try something else altogether , but they are trying for that Rolex look. I sold mine before any problems came up


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## Skyjuice (Sep 7, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> I have questions.
> 
> I have one of the first batch of OR2's I've not had any issues with the bezel paint as i dont wear it that often but is it worth sending it back anyway so he can apply the fix?
> 
> ...


If there's no issue, I wouldn't send it back. You may have to wait for quite a while to get it fix. Perhaps its only certain batch has this issue.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

I had a movement issue with my ORII Smurf with ceramic bezel insert (perfect) and sent it in for warranty repair. I requested that the insert be swapped out for the corrected one at that time as I did not want to have to send it back at a later date. That was in early June. Still waiting. I appreciate Ginault not rushing to send the watch back with a replacement insert that hasn't addressed the problem (I certainly am not short of other watches to wear - WIS, afterall) and write this to underline Skyjuice' point above: if you send an unaffected watch in for insert replacement you may be waiting a very long time to have it returned. I'd wait until the insert issue appears before considering sending it back.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

I emailed Ginault about getting a or2 smurf no date with aluminum insert.
He said he has one ready to ship but then hit me with phase 1 is closed now its phase 2 pricing and “its filling up” too. 
When i use my original invitation link to order or2 i can still order at phase 1 price.
I will not be placing an order but just a heads up in case someone is looking for an aluminum insert. Also apparently now they are using eta elabore too...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

I think the order page is a bit broken. You can place any order you like but its going to get thrown 
out once the order goes in for verification ie. it's probably a manual process. I was going to order 
date and non date. I checked with John and he said that only one order per code providing you 
order within the timeframe. The 2nd order would be at the higher rate.


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## Axinnon (Jan 31, 2013)

I had one, barely wore it as I have a rotation of watches but the pip still chipped. I liked the watch but asked for a refund. Shame this is still ongoing a year later.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Just received an update from John regarding the delays on OR2. 
I guess we need to exercise some more patience..............

_"I think we are close. Should have an official update in a few weeks. _
_
That said, although at this point I would not be able to provide a meaningful timeframe, we are doing our best aiming at end of the year delivery for our pre-ordered customers. 
_
_We apologize for the inconvenience and delay caused "_


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

I got Ginault OR II at 28. July. Since then I was very pleased with this watch. This friday (on 23.10.2020) I slept with a watch on only for 15 min and as I woke up, the bezel was detached (with no visible damage on the bezel, see attachment). I have really kept an eye on this watch. I think this should not happen when it costs 1600€. 
The problem now ist that John simply does not respond. I sent him 3 e-mails (first mail at 23.10.2020). Any suggestions?
Thank you in advance


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## dorningarts (Aug 14, 2014)

h3artl3$$ said:


> I got Ginault OR II at 28. July. Since then I was very pleased with this watch. This friday (on 23.10.2020) I slept with a watch on only for 15 min and as I woke up, the bezel was detached (with no visible damage on the bezel, see attachment). I have really kept an eye on this watch. I think this should not happen when it costs 1600€.
> The problem now ist that John simply does not respond. I sent him 3 e-mails (first mail at 23.10.2020). Any suggestions?
> Thank you in advance
> 
> View attachment 15523661


Too bad, yeah I have had spotty communication with Ginault, really started bothering me, finally sold the watch.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

h3artl3$$ said:


> I got Ginault OR II at 28. July. Since then I was very pleased with this watch. This friday (on 23.10.2020) I slept with a watch on only for 15 min and as I woke up, the bezel was detached (with no visible damage on the bezel, see attachment). I have really kept an eye on this watch. I think this should not happen when it costs 1600€.
> The problem now ist that John simply does not respond. I sent him 3 e-mails (first mail at 23.10.2020). Any suggestions?
> Thank you in advance
> 
> View attachment 15523661


Is that an aluminum insert of ceramic?


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

ceramic


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

I'd be tempted to buy the correct adhesive and fix it myself, but I do understand that you shouldn't have to do this and you shouldn't expect it to fail in this way.

I've had no issues with the aluminium bezel, but I suspect this probably snaps into place rather than being glued.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

on the ginault home page there is a messenger. There I got a fast response, so if you guys have problems with communication via mail, that is the best way to do.


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## Shizmosis (Feb 26, 2017)

h3artl3$$ said:


> on the ginault home page there is a messenger. There I got a fast response, so if you guys have problems with communication via mail, that is the best way to do.


I'm sorry to hear that you have a problem with your ORII. What did Ginault offer as a solution to you?


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

To send a watch back, so they´ll repair it.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Where do you have to send it back - USA or EU?


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

to London and then back to USA.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

That's odd, I thought they had a service centre somewhere in the EU


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## Skyjuice (Sep 7, 2018)

Great news for those who are following the updates regarding the pip issue. Following was quoted from the Ginault FB.

*See an announcement directly from Ginault regarding the bezel paint issue.....hopefully a final solution!
As I am sure you are aware, the ORII was plagued with a cosmetic defect (the IPG inlay at 12'oclock eroding) since its release. I would first like to personally apologize for all the inconvenience caused.
The good news is that we have finally determined the cause and a solution. Besides the epoxy issue addressed in fix1.0, the hidden culprit for the inlay to erode at 12'clock is due to an electrochemical phenomenon called galvanic reaction.
*The basic scientific principle of galvanic corrosion is when two dissimilar metals come into direct contact and coupled with electrolytes (such as seawater or swimming pool with salt) the two metals react and corrosion occurs.
Rather than the common and cost-effective method of using paint (or luminescent pigment) to fill the inlay on the ceramic insert, the silver color you see in our inlay is actually a thin layer of metal film deposited to the ceramic substrate via a vacuum vapor deposition process called sputtering. And when that layer of metallic inlay comes into direct contact with a dissimilar metal (our lume pip holder) coupled with electrolytes (seawater, pool water with salt, hand sweat) galvanic reaction happens, and the result as you know it, the erosion of the inlay at 12'clock.
Some may wonder why something seemingly so simple could take Ginault so long to figure out and the inability to offer an effective timeline when even entry-level brands don't have this issue. The answer lays in two parts.
1st, the majority of the ceramic inserts that you see on cheaper watches or replacement ceramic inserts found on eBay just use paint (or luminescent pigment) to fill the index. It gets the job done, but the lack of refinement isn't something we want on the OR2. The brands that use sputtering to fill the inlay would use a different design for the 12'clock lume pip. I might be wrong but I think besides The Crown, we are the only company that utilizes sputtering + direct contact of the lume pip holder (with the metal inlay) design.
2nd, because of this, none of the insert suppliers (high or low) that we brought this issue to could provide an answer. While sputtering is no ground-breaking technology, certain application-specific "tricks" and "know-how" such as this are held closely in the hands of a few industry leaders and not shared. In the end, it was through Charles's connection we got put in touch with a corrosion specialist at NASA's Ames Research Lab that pointed us to the right path.
We truly apologize for not being able to offer an actionable timeframe during the discovery process the past few months. We understand the frustration as we were too, not to be able to figure out the cause. Thankfully, many of our customers have extended their understanding and patience during the past months while we work on a solution. We sincerely appreciate all of the support and encouragement! It truly meant a lot to us. And it's because of this, we are able to find the solution and maintain our insistence on the sputtering process instead of compromising and switching to paint filled inlays.
That said, for customers that are still waiting on their OR2 pre-order, Charles and I will be doing our best to fulfill the orders in a timely manner without sacrificing build quality. We have been working separately at our own workbench at home since the beginning of the pandemic. It has slowed down the workflow a bit but we are doing our best to keep exposure at a minimum.
For customers that have already received the OR2 (with or without the inlay issue manifesting), you can send it back to us for insert replacement, all costs covered. We will also extend our limited non-transferable warranty for another year after you receive the unit back.
Ceramic Insert Care Instruction:
Rinse with fresh water after exposure to electrolytes and dry thoroughly. The inlay surface when examined under a microscope, forms a gritty surface. This means once the surface is stained (by oil or grease), it will be hard to remove. Keep in mind, skin secretes oil and sheds. So particles/grime can get lodged in the engraved grooves after use. It is the physical nature of a deeper engraved design. When cleaning foreign particles lodged inside the engraved grooves, be sure NOT to use any sharp tip to scratch the surface directly. The coated surface can get damaged when scratched. To clean it, we suggest using Fun-Tak putty.

Sincerely
John*


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Thanks for the post. That's great to hear that a solution has been found and detailed explanation given by Ginault. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)

nurpur said:


> Thanks for the post. That's great to hear that a solution has been found and detailed explanation given by Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I take it as good and bad. To me the post says - your watch will eventually have this problem.They don't elaborate on the "solution" they found, but I bet they use different metal that does react with pip inlay. Dissimilar metals (or any kind of corrosion prevention) is pretty basic stuff, the reason it does not happen on Rolex is because they use precious metals (gold or platinum, not sure).


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

I got the email this morning that my ORII is being shipped back to me. This will be the 3rd time it's been return from warranty repair since I got it in Feb hopefully it's the final time too 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## h3artl3$$ (Oct 29, 2020)

WatchCollector01 said:


> I got the email this morning that my ORII is being shipped back to me. This will be the 3rd time it's been return from warranty repair since I got it in Feb hopefully it's the final time too
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


May I ask why 3rd time, what happened?


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## WatchCollector01 (Nov 18, 2014)

h3artl3$$ said:


> May I ask why 3rd time, what happened?


1st time the movement seized after less than a week on the wrist and there was no abuse it just stopped working.

2nd time was the paint on the pip chipped off.

3rd same problem

I am looking forward to getting back on my wrist again it's a great watch

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

^^This is why I sent mine back in June. The movement (ETA 2824) seized up after about 10 week's of use. No abuse. Requested that the ceramic bezel insert be swapped for the updated version at the same time to avoid having to send it back later.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

dorningarts said:


> Too bad, yeah I have had spotty communication with Ginault, really started bothering me, finally sold the watch.


I have been exchanging some emails with John from Ginault expressing my interest to buy and to my surprise his replies ain't instant. You'd think they would act fast for potential customers but that is not the case with Ginault. I later found out they are a very small operation and he spends most of his time at the workbench building watches

I had similar experience with Halios. My exchanges with Jason is spotty, sometimes up to 4 or 5 days while he is busy doing QC for the Fairwind. But I actually really like micros which the owners are so hands on, not just a chatterbox and online social butterflies. There is an ineffable quality with that personal approach by brands like Ginault and Halios.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

action3500 said:


> the reason it does not happen on Rolex is because they use precious metals (gold or platinum, not sure).


I don't think it reads that at all. It is true Rolex sputters platinum to fill the inlay but the platinum material (or any other precious metal) is not the reason why Rolex doesn't have the problem. The key in galvanic erosion is dissimilar metals. If you take a stainless needle and touch the inlay of a Rolex ceramic insert, add salt water or other electrolytes, you too will see the reaction between the cathode and the anode after a few minutes. Google the chart which demonstrates the difference in between metals and their electrons (charges).


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Saw this picture on line. Questionfor those who own the OR2, while I understand polished ceramic insert can reflect or appear as a different color under different light, does the ceramic insert also changes its texture appearance under different light? . It looks almost satin in this picture which is really nice


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

My OR2 has the ceramic bezel insert and it does change colour and texture based on lighting conditions and viewing angle.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

Just in at the end of last week, my new ORII with GSL which has the latest iteration of the ceramic bezel.

It looks and feels very different on the wrist compared to my No Date Smurf ORII with the aluminum insert.



















Pondering over whether to keep both or let one go.....decisions, decisions.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

woodruffm said:


> Just in at the end of last week, my new ORII with GSL which has the latest iteration of the ceramic bezel.
> 
> It looks and feels very different on the wrist compared to my No Date Smurf ORII with the aluminum insert.
> 
> Pondering over whether to keep both or let one go.....decisions, decisions.


Which one would you keep?


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

nurpur said:


> Which one would you keep?


Hmmm, I'm honestly not sure at the moment.

I didn't really like the new GSL Ceramic watch at first, I thought it was far too shiny, but now that I've had it on my wrist for a few days I've really started to warm to it. It exudes quality, as does the other watch. I was caught off guard at first as Ginault have made the bezel a lot easier to turn, which I do not like, but John told me that he received a lot of complaints about the bezel being too hard to turn and use. If I keep the new watch I've already been in contact with John @ Ginault about it going in to have the bezel tightened as per my other Ocean Rover.

The aluminium bezel watch looks absolutely amazing on a nato, I'm not sure that the ceramic bezel would pull it off as well, and I do like to wear one of my watches on a nato.

I may well be talking myself into keeping both of them, but who knows.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

I have an ORI GSL no date and an ORII Glowing Smurfs with date and ceramic bezel insert (currently with Ginault getting retrofitted with the newest insert). I was convinced that I was going to like the ORII more than the ORI due to the date and the glowing smurfs lume and was sure I'd be flogging my ORI... Nope. No plan to sell either; they wear VERY differently - even with both on bracelet and I like having both in the watch box. I AM a WIS, though... I eat, sleep, eat, and breathe the "why not both?" mantra...


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## Lu.. (Sep 7, 2020)

badgerracer said:


> Glad to see another OR with the iron man bezel. Mine says hi!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks really good..... is that an aftermarket bezel insert or did you ordered it that way from Ginault.

My guess is they do not offer red ceramic version, right?


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## DevilDoc19 (Oct 29, 2019)

KingKF1221 said:


> View attachment 15547819
> 
> 
> Saw this picture on line. Questionfor those who own the OR2, while I understand polished ceramic insert can reflect or appear as a different color under different light, does the ceramic insert also changes its texture appearance under different light? . It looks almost satin in this picture which is really nice


The ceramic insert can really play with light, different warmth also gives the watch totally different presentation.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Lu.. said:


> That looks really good..... is that an aftermarket bezel insert or did you ordered it that way from Ginault.
> 
> My guess is they do not offer red ceramic version, right?


Sorry, just seeing this now. It did come straight from Ginault with the red insert, although it is aluminum, not ceramic. I really love the warm looks that comes from the red and gold. And I feel like the gold on the insert mixes with the GSL really well, and the red helps tie in the red second hand. Absolutely no regrets getting this over the black ceramic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

Anyone know if the Ginault bracelet fits a 14060? I know it fits a 16610


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

RJS296 said:


> Anyone know if the Ginault bracelet fits a 14060? I know it fits a 16610


It doesn't.


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## RJS296 (Apr 15, 2017)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> It doesn't.


Thanks!


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Darwin said:


> I have an ORI GSL no date and an ORII Glowing Smurfs with date and ceramic bezel insert (currently with Ginault getting retrofitted with the newest insert). I was convinced that I was going to like the ORII more than the ORI due to the date and the glowing smurfs lume and was sure I'd be flogging my ORI... Nope. No plan to sell either; they wear VERY differently - even with both on bracelet and I like having both in the watch box. I AM a WIS, though... I eat, sleep, eat, and breathe the "why not both?" mantra...


Received an email from John on Friday letting me know that the work on my ORII was completed and an email yesterday with tracking number. Should be on my wrist early in the new year! Looking forward to having this one back in the rotation.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

My ORII arrived on Wednesday and looks great!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

woodruffm said:


> Just in at the end of last week, my new ORII with GSL which has the latest iteration of the ceramic bezel.
> 
> It looks and feels very different on the wrist compared to my No Date Smurf ORII with the aluminum insert.
> 
> ...


appreciate the comparison pictures brother, both look amazing on the wrist, and have their own identies. The ceramic insert with the engraved index elavates the entire presentation while the aluminum insert really gives off that older generation vibe.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just saw this Youtube review, thought it would be cool to share it. Leaning hard towards a Ginault now


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Been seeing some pretty amazing photos coming out from Ginaut forum, just thought I'd share









I also sent them an email two days ago inquiring about a potential purchase but have not heard back, is that normal?


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

^^Where's the Ginault forum? FB? I'm not on FB...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

KingKF1221 said:


> Been seeing some pretty amazing photos coming out from Ginaut forum, just thought I'd share
> View attachment 15685510
> 
> 
> I also sent them an email two days ago inquiring about a potential purchase but have not heard back, is that normal?


Yea John can be a little slow to respond sometimes, but I'm sure he'll get back to you.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Darwin said:


> ^^Where's the Ginault forum? FB? I'm not on FB...


There is a Facebook group, that is all I am aware of though

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

Just received my Ocean Rover II ceramic and I am very very happy with it. What a superb quality watch! I also have a Rolex 14060 and I have to say the quality is very close to that. The ceramic has a really mirror like quality to it which catches the eye, and the red seconds hand introduces a well needed splash of colour.

I noticed a few people talking about adding a GMT bezel to their watches. I am thinking of buying a aluminium bezel Ginault and doing the same thing, but I would like to replace the movement with a proper GMT movement. To all the watch modding experts here - will this work? I am planning to replace the movement which comes with the watch (2824-2) with a GMT movement (2836-2). I think it will work, just double checking if the hand stack height of the GMT movement will present any challenges?

Anyway, photo below of my newly acquired ceramic Ginault:


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

garethevans said:


> Just received my Ocean Rover II ceramic and I am very very happy with it. What a superb quality watch! I also have a Rolex 14060 and I have to say the quality is very close to that. The ceramic has a really mirror like quality to it which catches the eye, and the red seconds hand introduces a well needed splash of colour.
> 
> I noticed a few people talking about adding a GMT bezel to their watches. I am thinking of buying a aluminium bezel Ginault and doing the same thing, but I would like to replace the movement with a proper GMT movement. To all the watch modding experts here - will this work? I am planning to replace the movement which comes with the watch (2824-2) with a GMT movement (2836-2). I think it will work, just double checking if the hand stack height of the GMT movement will present any challenges?
> 
> ...


Very interested in picking one up. In terms of quality and construction, based on my research I am understand the impression the OR2 surpasses the old 5-digit Sub in all aspects. The bezel turning is ball-bearing rather than click spring which means almost unlimited turning cycles. And the solid center links of the bracelet which for many is way better than the jingly 5-digit bracelet that many Rolex fan complained about. Can you confirm that?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

As my Rolex 14060 is an M model (which I think is one of the last models before they switched to ceramic), I believe the centre links are solid so bracelets feel similar. The Ginault bracelet comes with a newer (6 digit Rolex equivalent) style clasp which is a big improvement on the flimsy Submariner clasp though. And my Sub bracelet has hollow end links, unlike the Ginault. Overall I’d agree, the Ginault bracelet is better.

As for the bezel, it’s the best I’ve come across. I’d even dare say it’s better than I remember the ceramic Rolex Sub bezel to be (I used to own one of these but have subsequently sold it). There’s something about the Ginault (maybe the underlying bezel assembly) which just makes it feel very special. Another point to the Ginault!

Final one - I dislike the maxi case on newer Rolex models, but I love the maxi dial with the bigger markers. Ginault gets both of these elements right. Aesthetically it’s spot on.


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

It would be very nice if they did make a GMT...even if it’s black bezel ceramic. Has anyone talked to them about it? I’d bet there will be lots of interest 


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

Yes, I asked!

It’s on their roadmap but won’t be launched this year according to John. Hence why I’m looking at customising one of their aluminium bezel watches and creating my own GMT version if indeed it’s possible and can accommodate a GMT movement. 

I agree a black ceramic GMT would be nice... any GMT would be nice! But a Pepsi GMT would be the best IMO. Classic look GMT. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

garethevans said:


> Yes, I asked!
> 
> It's on their roadmap but won't be launched this year according to John. Hence why I'm looking at customising one of their aluminium bezel watches and creating my own GMT version if indeed it's possible and can accommodate a GMT movement.
> 
> ...


A Pepsi would be awesome. I think getting the colors just right will be tricky. I look forward to seeing what they develop next year.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

garethevans said:


> Yes, I asked!
> 
> It's on their roadmap but won't be launched this year according to John. Hence why I'm looking at customising one of their aluminium bezel watches and creating my own GMT version if indeed it's possible and can accommodate a GMT movement.
> 
> ...


It is interesting that he said it won't come out this year. They had posted some teaser shots of the case last summer with the hashtag skyrover or something of that nature. I'm surprised that it's release has been pushed back this long. I know they have had a lot of problems with the bezel lume pip corrosion and still with the blue ceramic that has probably took up their development time

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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

badgerracer said:


> It is interesting that he said it won't come out this year. They had posted some teaser shots of the case last summer with the hashtag skyrover or something of that nature. I'm surprised that it's release has been pushed back this long. I know they have had a lot of problems with the bezel lume pip corrosion and still with the blue ceramic that has probably took up their development time
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed regarding the lume pip and blue bezel taking up their time sadly. I wonder if I'm the only person still holding out for one with the blue bezel... 

Soon I hope. 

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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> Agreed regarding the lume pip and blue bezel taking up their time sadly. I wonder if I'm the only person still holding out for one with the blue bezel...
> 
> Soon I hope.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am very happy with my ORII and already have a great GMT in my collection (a Grand Seiko 9F). If Ginault ever makes a 36mm explorer homage though I would be the first person on that pre-order

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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

Yes, this year they are focused on launching the blue ceramic bezel Ocean Rover II (which is very very close now, it may even be shipping this month), and another model called “Silent Service”.

So a GMT in 2022 or 2023 possibly? From what I gather the owner is a perfectionist so likely a two coloured, one piece ceramic bezel insert is a major hurdle for the launch of this model since only Rolex have cracked the production of that.

Ideally a Pepsi ceramic, black ceramic, and an older style aluminium Pepsi would be great models to have from Ginault. 


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

Dammit! I don't _need_ another watch, but an Explorer and a GMT from Ginault... There goes my watch budget! I've closed both my FB and Instagram accounts; is there any other way to keep abreast of Ginault developments?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Darwin said:


> Dammit! I don't _need_ another watch, but an Explorer and a GMT from Ginault... There goes my watch budget! I've closed both my FB and Instagram accounts; is there any other way to keep abreast of Ginault developments?


The GMT is on the horizon (although as previously mentioned it will be a while). The explorer homage is just me daydreaming. I have heard a couple other people in the Facebook group mention that they would like an explorer homage as well, and I'm sure John keeps his eye on the group. So hopefully he will make one someday, but so far there hasn't been any talk from Ginault about one.

As to where to hear about Ginault developments, you can look at their Instagram account without having an account (that is what I do) although they only seem to post there a handful of times a year. Otherwise anything new that comes out will likely make its way onto this thread eventually, even if it isn't as active as it once was. I would think a new model would reinvigorate it though. The next model to come out will be the Silver Service, which will be another dive watch, but with an original design

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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

I think it's "secret service" rather than "silver service", although the latter would be funny if it was aimed at the older buyer.

"Secret service" sounds Bond-esque, so a military style vintage diver perhaps.

Looks like it will have a coin edge bezel, no crown guards, in stainless silver and possibly a more vintage look based on these details... and that's all I can tell from the IG preview.

Maybe they have something like this in mind:









Tempus Machina 216A


The Limited Edition Tempus Machina 216A Red Depth Submariner. The crown jewel of custom luxury Rolex watches.




tempus-machina.com





Which would be a very nice addition indeed.

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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

garethevans said:


> As my Rolex 14060 is an M model (which I think is one of the last models before they switched to ceramic), I believe the centre links are solid so bracelets feel similar. The Ginault bracelet comes with a newer (6 digit Rolex equivalent) style clasp which is a big improvement on the flimsy Submariner clasp though. And my Sub bracelet has hollow end links, unlike the Ginault. Overall I'd agree, the Ginault bracelet is better.
> 
> As for the bezel, it's the best I've come across. I'd even dare say it's better than I remember the ceramic Rolex Sub bezel to be (I used to own one of these but have subsequently sold it). There's something about the Ginault (maybe the underlying bezel assembly) which just makes it feel very special. Another point to the Ginault!
> 
> ...


Thank you!
I too am very drawn to the idea of using that timeless classic 5-digit case size and proportion (which is my fav) and intergrate the modern upgrades seen on the 6-digit to it.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Darwin said:


> ^^Where's the Ginault forum? FB? I'm not on FB...





Darwin said:


> Dammit! I don't _need_ another watch, but an Explorer and a GMT from Ginault... There goes my watch budget! I've closed both my FB and Instagram accounts; is there any other way to keep abreast of Ginault developments?


I'd be happy to update/gather the news and photos from the other forums to this thread.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

garethevans said:


> I think it's "secret service" rather than "silver service", although the latter would be funny if it was aimed at the older buyer.
> 
> "Secret service" sounds Bond-esque, so a military style vintage diver perhaps.
> 
> ...


"Silver" was a typo on my end, I meant to type silent. And I confirmed on their Instagram that they are calling the new model silent service

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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

KingKF1221 said:


> I'd be happy to update/gather the news and photos from the other forums to this thread.


That would be amazing - thank you!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just updating some cool pictures that I saw from the other forums.


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## AdrianGrf12 (Mar 20, 2020)

looks good!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Updating another cool picture that I saw.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

If anyone is looking...this one is available.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

LARufCTR said:


> If anyone is looking...this one is available.


That's an OR1 or OR2 ?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

OR1... bezel is aluminium (not ceramic) so not as shiny as the new one. 


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

garethevans said:


> OR1... bezel is aluminium (not ceramic) so not as shiny as the new one.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True about the black...but the OR1 has the silver #s which catch light and "shine" and tie-in nicely w/the metal of the watch. OR2 they are white. Both cool...just different


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

LARufCTR said:


> True about the black...but the OR1 has the silver #s which catch light and "shine" and tie-in nicely w/the metal of the watch. OR2 they are white. Both cool...just different


Absolutely, can't go wrong with either of these watches 

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## NY&watches (Nov 10, 2018)

Ginault said:


> View attachment 12397103
> 
> 
> View attachment 12397125
> ...


Thanks for sharing!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

I miss my Ginault OR 1.  I got a good offer and passed it on to another watch enthusiast when I heard about OR 2. These pics are making me salivate more and more for my soon to be arriving OR 2. I truly cannot wait... my blue bezel OR 2 is coming soon . Who else ordered the blue bezel?? Am I the only one who waited it out? I know some elected for a black bezel considering the extended wait. Thoughts??

Josh

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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> I miss my Ginault OR 1.  I got a good offer and passed it on to another watch enthusiast when I heard about OR 2. These pics are making me salivate more and more for my soon to be arriving OR 2. I truly cannot wait... my blue bezel OR 2 is coming soon . Who else ordered the blue bezel?? Am I the only one who waited it out? I know some elected for a black bezel considering the extended wait. Thoughts??
> 
> Josh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is there any pics of the blue bezel OR around? its been a long time coming.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Mr Auto said:


> Is there any pics of the blue bezel OR around? its been a long time coming.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


Um, yes I have several that they sent me. I think it looks incredible . I'm not 100% sure they are supposed to be released for prime time just yet. I can share them with you if you want, but please don't post them to everyone. I anticipate that they will be posting them soon. Did you order a blue bezel? They are telling me March or April for delivery!

Josh

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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> I miss my Ginault OR 1.  I got a good offer and passed it on to another watch enthusiast when I heard about OR 2. These pics are making me salivate more and more for my soon to be arriving OR 2. I truly cannot wait... my blue bezel OR 2 is coming soon . Who else ordered the blue bezel?? Am I the only one who waited it out? I know some elected for a black bezel considering the extended wait. Thoughts??
> 
> Josh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I ordered the blue at first but switched to the black for 2 reasons, the first being that the blue is a dark shade of blue. They are still determining the final colour, but it will be a lot darker than say the blue bezel on the new Rolex 126619LB. The second reason was faster shipping on the black bezel.

I'm keeping an eye on it to see how the final blue colour turns out but initially I was hoping for a more vibrant, lighter blue similar to the Rolex colour. Should be released very soon for all those who have been patiently waiting!

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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Um, yes I have several that they sent me. I think it looks incredible . I'm not 100% sure they are supposed to be released for prime time just yet. I can share them with you if you want, but please don't post them to everyone. I anticipate that they will be posting them soon. Did you order a blue bezel? They are telling me March or April for delivery!
> 
> Josh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yea DM them to me if you can (I wont post them anywhere)

I didnt opt for the blue in the end but was considering it at one point. I remember asking him about it on a few occasions and he said he just couldn't seem to get the shade of blue he was happy with.

Had a feeling it would look awesome though once he finally figured it out, the guy is a perfectionist.

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## jarlaxle (Mar 29, 2010)

Mr Auto said:


> Is there any pics of the blue bezel OR around? its been a long time coming.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


They are out now. Looks fantastic IMO.


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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

jarlaxle said:


> They are out now. Looks fantastic IMO.


That shade of blue does look nice, anyone who has been waiting for over a year for this to drop will be very happy I'm sure.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I am happy with my red aluminum OR, but damn that blue ceramic looks great! 


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

I have to agree, that bezel is stunning. I thought the blue might be too dark, but it really looks great. 

Is it excessive to have the black ceramic model and the blue?

I’m pretty tempted to be honest. 


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

I know this is suppose to be a homage but I really like the fact how this is nothing like the Rolex blue. It's a thing on its own.


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

*KingKF1221 *yes - agree. It's definitely got it's own character and personality.

Here are some more photos for anyone who's contemplating buying this version - these images were supplied by John at Ginault and when I received them I placed an order for it pretty much straight away. It's a thing of beauty.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

That is a lovely watch!


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

Has anyone had this issue with their OR? Over time, the case is developing staining of some kind. I haven't tried anything more than a microfiber cloth without first doing some due diligence. There is similar discoloration on the clasp, which we know is sourced from Asia. Makes me wonder whether it's due to improper machining, or the quality of the metal. I have not had this issue with my other watches (Seiko, Tag, Nomos, Zenith). Does anyone have any ideas how to safely remove this sort of contamination?


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## Sc0ttg (Jul 29, 2020)

garethevans said:


> *KingKF1221 *yes - agree. It's definitely got it's own character and personality.
> 
> Here are some more photos for anyone who's contemplating buying this version - these images were supplied by John at Ginault and when I received them I placed an order for it pretty much straight away. It's a thing of beauty.
> 
> ...


love it. What is the model number of this blu/black with white indices?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Sc0ttg said:


> love it. What is the model number of this blu/black with white indices?


201175LSICB < I think > 

Mine is the same but with the negative date wheel.

Josh

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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

garethevans said:


> *KingKF1221 *yes - agree. It's definitely got it's own character and personality.
> 
> Here are some more photos for anyone who's contemplating buying this version - these images were supplied by John at Ginault and when I received them I placed an order for it pretty much straight away. It's a thing of beauty.
> 
> ...


I am now thinking of getting the black no-date like this one, and a blue with date. Will decide when I receive my first one.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jhinson1 said:


> 201175LSICB < I think >
> 
> Mine is the same but with the negative date wheel.
> 
> ...


what is a negative date wheel? The black ones?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

gumpracer said:


> Has anyone had this issue with their OR? Over time, the case is developing staining of some kind. I haven't tried anything more than a microfiber cloth without first doing some due diligence. There is similar discoloration on the clasp, which we know is sourced from Asia. Makes me wonder whether it's due to improper machining, or the quality of the metal. I have not had this issue with my other watches (Seiko, Tag, Nomos, Zenith). Does anyone have any ideas how to safely remove this sort of contamination?
> 
> View attachment 15760284
> View attachment 15760285


That's pretty strange... have you reached out to John @ Ginault for his thoughts? I'm sure he'll get back to you right away.

Josh

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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just read a great review for the OR2. Very good write up. 








Ginault Ocean Rover OR2 Picture Review


I have been meaning to drop in a meaningful review for my two Ginault Ocean Rovers V2. Strange thing about the COVID Lockdown that we are currently in, this is our third in UK, is that you think you have all the time in world to do these kind of things but I find myself just worn out on a daily...




www.watchuseek.com


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

gumpracer said:


> Has anyone had this issue with their OR? Over time, the case is developing staining of some kind. I haven't tried anything more than a microfiber cloth without first doing some due diligence. There is similar discoloration on the clasp, which we know is sourced from Asia. Makes me wonder whether it's due to improper machining, or the quality of the metal. I have not had this issue with my other watches (Seiko, Tag, Nomos, Zenith). Does anyone have any ideas how to safely remove this sort of contamination?
> 
> View attachment 15760284
> View attachment 15760285


That is strange. But I don't think it has to do with where the watch is made. Tons of brands use parts from China including replicas. Have not seen anything like this before.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> what is a negative date wheel? The black ones?


Correct, black date wheel with white numbers 

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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

gumpracer said:


> Has anyone had this issue with their OR? Over time, the case is developing staining of some kind. I haven't tried anything more than a microfiber cloth without first doing some due diligence. There is similar discoloration on the clasp, which we know is sourced from Asia. Makes me wonder whether it's due to improper machining, or the quality of the metal. I have not had this issue with my other watches (Seiko, Tag, Nomos, Zenith). Does anyone have any ideas how to safely remove this sort of contamination?
> 
> View attachment 15760284
> View attachment 15760285


Very odd for stainless steel to stain like that, especially on a highly polished surface, simple enough to remedy though. Mask off the brushed areas around the area of the case and bracelet that is affected, then either use something like a cape cod wipe, or a bit of metal polish with a microfibre towel and rub away the stains, probably a 2 minute job at most.

If for some reason you have reservations about this approach, have you tried dish soap and warm water in the first instance, that might be enough to do it.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

woodruffm said:


> Very odd for stainless steel to stain like that, especially on a highly polished surface, simple enough to remedy though. Mask off the brushed areas around the area of the case and bracelet that is affected, then either use something like a cape cod wipe, or a bit of metal polish with a microfibre towel and rub away the stains, probably a 2 minute job at most.
> 
> If for some reason you have reservations about this approach, have you tried dish soap and warm water in the first instance, that might be enough to do it.


I'm waiting on a reply from John before I go the abrasive route, but I'm trying the dish soap now.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

gumpracer said:


> I'm waiting on a reply from John before I go the abrasive route, but I'm trying the dish soap now.


I can responsibly say that I read this entire thread because this brand really caught my attention including the controversy. (the story is primed for Hollywood, talking about history and provenance right? it's definitely unique) but have not seen anyone reporting anything like this that you are experiencing, definitely strange.


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

I’ve never seen stainless do this however, I know that from instructions with other stainless items, they always say no bleach. That applies to stainless washer drums, kitchen sinks, knives...etc. 


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## Lu.. (Sep 7, 2020)

I hope a red ceramic bezel is next.......


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Lu.. said:


> I hope a red ceramic bezel is next.......


A red or green ceramic insert would be so cool!

Just saw this side by side of the Ginault Ocean Rover 2 next to the Tudor BB58 what a great pair


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just saw this amazing photo of the no-date, that ceramic insert is so sharp with the engraved markers


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

garethevans said:


> *KingKF1221 *yes - agree. It's definitely got it's own character and personality.
> 
> Here are some more photos for anyone who's contemplating buying this version - these images were supplied by John at Ginault and when I received them I placed an order for it pretty much straight away. It's a thing of beauty.
> 
> ...


Is it just me or the second to last picture, the blue looks almost teal like. I must say this blue they picked is like a chameleon


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## action3500 (Jun 30, 2010)

I like blue bezel, but I feel like at this point is a homage to 2021 submariner. If the dial had matching blue, I'd say it was unique and think of getting one, as it stands, I don't like blue bezel with black dial, nor can it call original.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

KingKF1221 said:


> I can responsibly say that I read this entire thread because this brand really caught my attention including the controversy. (the story is primed for Hollywood, talking about history and provenance right? it's definitely unique) but have not seen anyone reporting anything like this that you are experiencing, definitely strange.


Sending it in to John & Charles for a closer look, and possible correction.


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

And what about...


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

toto453 said:


> And what about...
> View attachment 15793249
> View attachment 15793251


This is OR1 or OR2? This is your own mod or from Ginault?
Thanks


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

It's an OR2, a mod I did in order to balance the red second hand. Personaly I was not fond of the red second...but now I am ok with this bezel.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Does anyone know if there is an easy way of making/having the black ceramic bezel in a matte version?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Does anyone know if there is an easy way of making/having the black ceramic bezel in a matte version?


It can be done (I've seen it done to an authentic Rolex Seadweller), but you would have to find a specialist with the right equipment. The example I saw (if I remember correctly) had the insert blasted using an aluminum oxide media.

The flat matte ceramic does look awesome.


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Matte ceramic bezel would be great !


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Ryeguy said:


> It can be done (I've seen it done to an authentic Rolex Seadweller), but you would have to find a specialist with the right equipment. The example I saw (if I remember correctly) had the insert blasted using an aluminum oxide media.
> 
> The flat matte ceramic does look awesome.


Yeah, I sad a Submariner with a matte bezel and, IMO, this is (a matte ceramic bezel) is another level.

Would buy another OR if this option was offered by Ginault.

PS: plus drilled lug holes, please.


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Anyone has changed the handset of his Ginault ? Or at least the second hand ?


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

toto453 said:


> Anyone has changed the handset of his Ginault ? Or at least the second hand ?


I remember seeing, at least, one person having done this. The lume color was not exactly as the other hands/hour markers (it was BGW9, IIRC).


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

toto453 said:


> Anyone has changed the handset of his Ginault ? Or at least the second hand ?


I do recall seeing one done by someone but couldn't recall where. But personally I still prefer their classic red second hand.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

KingKF1221 said:


> I do recall seeing one done by someone but couldn't recall where. But personally I still prefer their classic red second hand.
> View attachment 15799497


For me it depends on the version. It works really well with the SMURFS and ceramic bezel. With the Golden Sands 
and aluminium bezel I think it looks out of place and the polished seconds hands to match the other hands would be better.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Just FYI, I asked John about the possibility of buying a modified ORII with a matte black ceramic insert and drilled lug holes.

He said they don't offer those modifications.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Just FYI, I asked John about the possibility of buying a modified ORII with a matte black ceramic insert and drilled lug holes.
> 
> He said they don't offer those modifications.


I think it took them over a year to get the insert right so I did not see them going out of their 
way to do another dulled variant. Oddly, over time I have come to like the look of the shiny 
insert. It still would have been nice if they had an easy way of replacing the insert, as I understand 
that it is glued in rather than pressed in and also the bezel is not easily removed or reattached. 
Drilled lugs? They have moved away from drilled lugs me thinks.


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## hkhan.001 (Jul 22, 2019)

Third time buying an OR1. Keep coming back because they are so comfortable on my wrist.

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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

GarbanzoNegro said:


> Just FYI, I asked John about the possibility of buying a modified ORII with a matte black ceramic insert and drilled lug holes.
> 
> He said they don't offer those modifications.


Probably not much you can do about the matte ceramic bezel insert, but there quite a few guys on WUS who have either had the lugs on their watches drilled out or have done it themselves. I have both a ceramic bezel ORII and an aluminium bezel ORII and they are both gorgeous. An aluminium bezel version with modded lugs would be amazing and I don't think you'd miss the ceramic.

Personally, I thought the non-drilled lugs would be an issue for me. They are not...


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

Darwin said:


> Probably not much you can do about the matte ceramic bezel insert, but there quite a few guys on WUS who have either had the lugs on their watches drilled out or have done it themselves.


Thanks. I already touched base with them some time ago, but never really pulled the trigger.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

hkhan.001 said:


> Third time buying an OR1. Keep coming back because they are so comfortable on my wrist.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I feel you....I'm on my 3rd...everytime I sell one...I miss it until I buy another...only watch that this has done this to me...


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## Mr Auto (Apr 29, 2019)

Mines up on the chopping block, nothing against the watch, just time to try something new. I have a feeling it wont be the last I see of this watch though...


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Does anyone know if the warranty is transferrable to a new owner?

Cheers.


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

If Ginault made a GMT...

This is something I've been working on for a while now with my watchmaker - a custom Ginault GMT build.




























This for me is pretty much my perfect GMT watch. Here's my reasoning as to why I think this watch combines the best elements of the old Rolex GMT and the new Rolex GMT. I've done a score based comparison with the classic GMT Pepsi for fun. This is just my opinion of course, and naturally I'm biased having created this from a vision I had.

*Case* - the old pepsi style case with the thinner lugs is so much nicer and sits on the wrist better than the new maxi-case design of the new model IMO. The crown guards are also slimmer and more refined. It's pretty much the same shape and profile as the old Rolex GMT case so both watches draw on this particular point. Ginault +1 Rolex +1

*Crown* - one of the weak points of the old Rolex GMT, the crown is too small and fiddly to use! The Ginault crown is a perfect size and more substantial giving you something to grip when adjusting the time and date. The crown on the Ginault is similar to the new Rolex GMT crown which is a better shape and size, but as we're comparing this with the old GMT, the Ginault gets the point. Ginault +1

*Waterproofness* - the Ginault has 300m water resistance vs the Rolex's 100m. Obviously the base watch I've used from Ginault is a dive watch rather than a GMT so perhaps an unfair advantage here, but it is what it is. Ginault +1

*Bracelet* - the Ginault has a brushed oyster style bracelet which is so much nicer than the new polished centre link bracelet of the ceramic GMT in my opinion. The vintage pepsi has this brushed style oyster bracelet also, but many come with hollow end links and for that reason I think the Ginault edges ahead in this category compared with all but the newer style GMT models from Rolex. Ginault +1

*Clasp* - the Ginault features the newer style clasp which is far more durable and robust than the flimsy Rolex clasps from the 5 digit models. A clear winner in this category. Ginault +1

*Crystal + cyclops *- the Ginault has the anti-reflective cyclops found on newer Rolex models which greatly improves date legibility and gives the Ginault the edge. Aside from that the crystals on both watches are near identical. Ginault +1

*Hands + dial* - with maxi style hands and dial, the Ginault is much more legible (especially at night with the glowing smufs superluminova). I'm not a big fan of the maxi case, but the maxi hands and dial markers are just better from a legibility perspective and also from a looks perspective in my opinion. I know some people prefer the older original style Rolex dial and hands but having owned both I definitely prefer the newer style. Ginault +1

*Bezel* - both watches use the same aluminium pepsi bezel which looks fantastic. It's not as durable as the new ceramic pepsi bezel but the colours certainly stand out on this model. The Ginault bezel is actually super smooth and uses a ball bearing system, so it's technically superior to the old Rolex bezel, but as it's based on a dive watch it does just move in one direction so we'll draw this round. Ginault +1 Rolex +1

*Brand + heritage *- well, clearly Rolex takes this one! The Rolex mark is synonymous with quality and craftsmanship and instantly recognised as one of the best brands in the world. Rolex is the established brand with decades of history behind it. There's clearly no competition here, and needless to say the Ginault is based on all the heritage and original designs that Rolex have blessed the world with. Rolex +1

*Movement* - the GMT movement used in the Ginault is an asian GMT movement which is both robust and reliable, but I think it's fair to give this point to the swiss made Rolex which has really stood the test of time. Rolex +1

*Affordability* - well, the Ginault is about 5x cheaper than a 5 digit Rolex pepsi watch, so no contest on this point. Ginault +1

*Conclusion* - the scores say it all:

*Ginault - 9
Rolex - 4*

Perhaps a fairer comparison would have been to pit the Ginault GMT against the new ceramic Rolex GMT, but this was an interesting comparison nevertheless. I think the Ginault takes the best of both models and combines them into a really attractive, functional GMT watch. I'm really pleased with how this 'one-of-a-kind' watch has turned out.

I hope you enjoyed the review and you like the photos of the watch. I also hope that one day Ginault launch a factory GMT watch as I'll be first in line to buy it. And in the meantime, this one will do nicely!!


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## reluctantsnowman (Jan 5, 2017)

Imitator>Imitatee?


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Superb GMT visuals there - looks stunning!


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

reluctantsnowman said:


> Imitator>Imitatee?


Don't get me wrong, I love Rolex. I've owned a few Submariners over the years, but both old and new style GMT models have their compromises.

That said, I have been on the waitlist for the new Rolex GMT pepsi since 2018 so maybe I should have added another category - *Availability*. And I think we know which brand would win that round!


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## reluctantsnowman (Jan 5, 2017)

garethevans said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love Rolex. I've owned a few Submariners over the years, but both old and new style GMT models have their compromises.
> 
> That said, I have been on the waitlist for the new Rolex GMT pepsi since 2018 so maybe I should have added another category - *Availability*. And I think we know which brand would win that round!


Well Rolex because the Ginault GMT does not exist?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

reluctantsnowman said:


> Well Rolex because the Ginault GMT does not exist?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well it's possible to buy one and mod it like I did. It's not possible to buy the Rolex unless you are comfortable paying double retail for it!


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

Do I spy a handstack with the hour hand below the GMT hand? Does the movement have a jumping hour hand adjustable in both directions?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> Do I spy a handstack with the hour hand below the GMT hand? Does the movement have a jumping hour hand adjustable in both directions?


Yes, indeed it does. Well spotted! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

garethevans said:


> Yes, indeed it does. Well spotted!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's pretty awesome! Can you share more details on the movement? Does the hour hand adjust in both directions with the date slaved to it? Is it the same size as the ETA 2824?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

WastedYears said:


> That's pretty awesome! Can you share more details on the movement? Does the hour hand adjust in both directions with the date slaved to it? Is it the same size as the ETA 2824?


Yes, the hour hand adjusts independently in both directions and controls the date. Roughly same size as 2824 movement and thus fits in the case. It's a 3186 clone movement, similar to the Rolex 3186 movement in the way it functions.

The tricky bit was fitting the hand stack. The Ginault dial had a smaller hole for the original hand stack so to get the new movement to fit, the dial hole had to be drilled to enlarge it which was a risky process as the dial may have been damaged. Fortunately turned out ok though!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Where did you get your handset ? How does it compare to the Ginault's handset ?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

toto453 said:


> Where did you get your handset ? How does it compare to the Ginault's handset ?


My watchmaker sourced the hands from his supplier. They're different from the Ginault - more similar to the hands used on Rolex models. Personally I really like the sword hands of the Ginault, but I'm also a big fan of the Rolex hands and as the Ginault hands wouldn't fit this movement the Rolex style hands were the obvious choice for this build.


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

About to pull the trigger on this highly argued over brand 😂. 

I love the sub case and they look beautiful, plus I refuse to pay submariner $. I wear what I like and Ginault has a lot going for it.

My question is date or no date? I currently have a Seamaster 2254.50 and a Marathon GSAR. This will be the last watch in my collection.

Leaning no date since I get tired of having to set the date, but sometimes I feel like it looks unbalanced.

Anyone else struggle with this


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## CatManDude (May 6, 2021)

alznc said:


> About to pull the trigger on this highly argued over brand ?.
> 
> I love the sub case and they look beautiful, plus I refuse to pay submariner $. I wear what I like and Ginault has a lot going for it.
> 
> ...


I have OR2 non date Golden Sands. More than happy with it. I think if I was going for the date version it would be with the SMURFS. Either way, its a fanatastic watch and difficult to beat for the build/looks and worth every penny - in my books.


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## CatManDude (May 6, 2021)

I was looking at changing out the aluminum bezel insert on my OR2 for a millsub insert. Does anybody know of a quality replacement that would fit? I just think that the sword hands would look better with this insert.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

CatManDude said:


> I was looking at changing out the aluminum bezel insert on my OR2 for a millsub insert. Does anybody know of a quality replacement that would fit? I just think that the sword hands would look better with this insert.
> 
> View attachment 15887498


That's something I have been thinking about as well. I don't think Ginault do anything like that. Also They are not encouraging "mods" on the watches anymore. I think the insert is glued in now as opposed to to just being pressed 
in - at least that applies to the ceramic insert - I don't know if this aluminium one is different. Best if someone else chimes in here.


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## CatManDude (May 6, 2021)

If someone could confirm the insert specs then I could do a search for something suitable. Thanks


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

CatManDude said:


> I have OR2 non date Golden Sands. More than happy with it. I think if I was going for the date version it would be with the SMURFS. Either way, its a fanatastic watch and difficult to beat for the build/looks and worth every penny - in my books.


Definitely going SMURFS either way.....decisions


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

alznc said:


> About to pull the trigger on this highly argued over brand .
> 
> I love the sub case and they look beautiful, plus I refuse to pay submariner $. I wear what I like and Ginault has a lot going for it.
> 
> ...


Date is a useful function IMO, and the price difference is negligible.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

alznc said:


> Definitely going SMURFS either way.....decisions


I have the SMURFS with date and ceramic. Looks amazing!

I did a picture review here:








Ginault Ocean Rover OR2 Picture Review


I have been meaning to drop in a meaningful review for my two Ginault Ocean Rovers V2. Strange thing about the COVID Lockdown that we are currently in, this is our third in UK, is that you think you have all the time in world to do these kind of things but I find myself just worn out on a daily...




www.watchuseek.com


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

nurpur said:


> I have the SMURFS with date and ceramic. Looks amazing!
> 
> I did a picture review here:
> 
> ...


The only ceramic bezel I have owned was on a CW Trident 600.  I thought it was a bit blingy..I'm worried about the OR ceramic being too blingy... am I correct that the 181175LSILN is ceramic and the 181070 is aluminum?

I really like the 181175LSILN but worried it will look too dressy.


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## Perseverence (Dec 12, 2016)

CatManDude said:


> If someone could confirm the insert specs then I could do a search for something suitable. Thanks


Sounds like a Google search.


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

Perseverence said:


> Sounds like a Google search.


Any insert that fits the Rolex 16610 Sub or 16710 GMT will fit this model. I just fitted a 16710 Pepsi insert into my ceramic Ginault.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CatManDude (May 6, 2021)

garethevans said:


> Any insert that fits the Rolex 16610 Sub or 16710 GMT will fit this model. I just fitted a 16710 Pepsi insert into my ceramic Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, that really helps! Just out of interest how did you remove the insert?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

CatManDude said:


> Thanks, that really helps! Just out of interest how did you remove the insert?


Using a watch modder 

It's glued so a bit tricky, but he managed to get it off in one piece without cracking the ceramic. Just needs someone with a bit of experience with these things.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Maybe I missed this in the thread, I tried to read as much as possible. I just "preordered" a "phase 2" Rover 2, no date, smurf. Does anyone know how long this preorder is going to last and when we can expect them to start shipping?


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

alznc said:


> Maybe I missed this in the thread, I tried to read as much as possible. I just "preordered" a "phase 2" Rover 2, no date, smurf. Does anyone know how long this preorder is going to last and when we can expect them to start shipping?


Usually three months from order date


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## CatManDude (May 6, 2021)

garethevans said:


> Using a watch modder
> 
> It's glued so a bit tricky, but he managed to get it off in one piece without cracking the ceramic. Just needs someone with a bit of experience with these things.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thats what I heard as well. Tread carefully I guess.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

alznc said:


> Maybe I missed this in the thread, I tried to read as much as possible. I just "preordered" a "phase 2" Rover 2, no date, smurf. Does anyone know how long this preorder is going to last and when we can expect them to start shipping?


I ordered at the weekend there and John said they hope to get things shipped by July. So I'm expecting sometime in July.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Ginault Fans!!!

Best news ever - OMG!!! I just received an email from John stating that my blue bezel OR II is ready to ship!! 

Sooo excited. Has anyone else received a blue OR II?? I'll post pics / humble thoughts / initial review when I receive it. So stoked 

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Ginault Fans!!!
> 
> Best news ever - OMG!!! I just received an email from John stating that my blue bezel OR II is ready to ship!!
> 
> ...


Superb 

Can't wait to see the photos and thoughts!!


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Ginault Fans!!!
> 
> Best news ever - OMG!!! I just received an email from John stating that my blue bezel OR II is ready to ship!!
> 
> ...




You must be one of the first - nice!! 

Hope mine is coming soon too. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

OH NO! Sounds like some other lucky one is going to get the watch!! I ordered a negative date wheel and they missed it on my follow up recheck email from a couple months ago... I have to wait two more weeks . Noooooo!

I know that I was one of the first purchasers of the blue bezel OR II. Sounds like someone else will get to enjoy it. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

My no date, smurfs, blue bezel just shipped. I'll post a pic when it's on wrist. In an amazing twist of fate, it will probably arrive the day after my just-sold Nogaro Blue S4 ships to her new owner. I had thought there were some good photo ops in the future when I ordered the watch.

Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> OH NO! Sounds like some other lucky one is going to get the watch!! I ordered a negative date wheel and they missed it on my follow up recheck email from a couple months ago... I have to wait two more weeks . Noooooo!
> 
> I know that I was one of the first purchasers of the blue bezel OR II. Sounds like someone else will get to enjoy it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A negative date wheel might actually look really good on this model... post some pics up when it eventually arrives!


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> OH NO! Sounds like some other lucky one is going to get the watch!! I ordered a negative date wheel and they missed it on my follow up recheck email from a couple months ago... I have to wait two more weeks . Noooooo!
> 
> I know that I was one of the first purchasers of the blue bezel OR II. Sounds like someone else will get to enjoy it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did you keep the cyclops on the crystal? I noticed the negative date wheel on this Ginault model is without the cyclops magnifier: Ocean-Rover 181270 - GINAULT - I have to say I really like that look.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

I plan on keeping the cyclops. I was debating between a domed or flat sapphire crystal now . Apparently I was the only person who ordered the blue ceramic bezel and black negative date wheel. I must be getting a limited edition of 1! 

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

kgrier said:


> My no date, smurfs, blue bezel just shipped. I'll post a pic when it's on wrist. In an amazing twist of fate, it will probably arrive the day after my just-sold Nogaro Blue S4 ships to her new owner. I had thought there were some good photo ops in the future when I ordered the watch.
> 
> Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk


Please do share the pictures after you receive the bluesy. have seen Ginault's pictures for the date version, eager to see the no-date!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Just thought this is a very cool picture of the GS OR2 which I saw, sharing here.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

garethevans said:


> Any insert that fits the Rolex 16610 Sub or 16710 GMT will fit this model. I just fitted a 16710 Pepsi insert into my ceramic Ginault.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Did your modder have to take the bezel assembly off?


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

KingKF1221 said:


> Did your modder have to take the bezel assembly off?


Yes, was essential


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> Just thought this is a very cool picture of the GS OR2 which I saw, sharing here.
> View attachment 15897750


I really like this actually. But had to get Blue Smurf lume with the blue ceramic bezel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

garethevans said:


> Yes, was essential


I spoke to John a while back about replacing the insert myself and he was discouraging me to try, as
there was some issue about getting all the bits back together again afterwards. Can you shed some light
as to why that should be so? On the NTH site they recommend heating the insert and melting off the glue.
Would that not work? I am pretty ham fisted and dont really want to get involved in loosing/finding tiny bits!

I was thinking about the OR2 aluminium insert version that I have - not the ceramic one.


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

nurpur said:


> I spoke to John a while back about replacing the insert myself and he was discouraging me to try, as
> there was some issue about getting all the bits back together again afterwards. Can you shed some light
> as to why that should be so? On the NTH site they recommend heating the insert and melting off the glue.
> Would that not work? I am pretty ham fisted and dont really want to get involved in loosing/finding tiny bits!
> ...


Ceramic is glued, older style aluminium insert is not (though that is OR1 not OR2 I think).

I would enlist the help of a professional if I was you. I wouldn't be inclined to do it myself, particularly as the ceramic can snap (maybe not an issue if you have the aluminium insert though).

I know OR2 has a ball bearing bezel system which is harder to remove and reassemble (makes for a lovely smooth action when turning), so having someone who has done it before would be my recommendation. Another guy lost his bearings in the carpet when he attempted it! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Hello Owners.

Rather than read through everything I thought I would just ask.
Does the no date version have the phantom date position in the crown or is it removed??


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

It has a phantom position. I believe the date wheel is removed but you have to have the non date version for it not to have that extra position.


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

nurpur said:


> It has a phantom position. I believe the date wheel is removed but you have to have the non date version for it not to have that extra position.


Thanks mate.

That is a little disappointing, for this money I would be looking for that to be removed.


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## kgrier (Feb 24, 2019)

Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

kgrier said:


> Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.
> 
> View attachment 15906596




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

kgrier said:


> Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.
> 
> View attachment 15906596


So jealous!!! Mine will be here soon 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> I plan on keeping the cyclops. I was debating between a domed or flat sapphire crystal now . Apparently I was the only person who ordered the blue ceramic bezel and black negative date wheel. I must be getting a limited edition of 1!
> 
> Josh
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thinking of joining you. Might be nice to have a negative date wheel and no cyclops as it will be different to my other watches, and especially unique with that beautiful blue bezel. Hmmmm... 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

garethevans said:


> Thinking of joining you. Might be nice to have a negative date wheel and no cyclops as it will be different to my other watches, and especially unique with that beautiful blue bezel. Hmmmm...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nope!! You can't... John told me I'm the only one . Maybe I'm making a bad decision?? No pics of the final product yet 

Nah, in all seriousness, I think it'll be perfect . I guess we can be the only two with a negative date wheel. 

I debated with cyclops vs no cyclops. I decided to keep it. It can always be removed down the road if I change my mind. Just another week or so... 

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## garethevans (Aug 6, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Nope!! You can't... John told me I'm the only one . Maybe I'm making a bad decision?? No pics of the final product yet
> 
> Nah, in all seriousness, I think it'll be perfect . I guess we can be the only two with a negative date wheel.
> 
> ...


I'm waiting on your pics before amending my order! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AtlasMaximus (Aug 26, 2019)

kgrier said:


> Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.
> 
> View attachment 15906596


Looks good! I'm anxiously awaiting for the end of next week/ early following to receive mine.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

kgrier said:


> Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.
> 
> View attachment 15906596


wow that is a must get !


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

AtlasMaximus said:


> Looks good! I'm anxiously awaiting for the end of next week/ early following to receive mine.


Did you order the blue as well?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Well I had a pleasant surprise package delivered to my house today !! That wasn't two weeks... they must've put a rush on it. More pics and wrist shot to follow later.

Josh


















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jhinson1 said:


> Well I had a pleasant surprise package delivered to my house today !! That wasn't two weeks... they must've put a rush on it. More pics and wrist shot to follow later.
> 
> Josh
> 
> ...


that is one fine looking time piece, that blue is spot on just the way I like it.

did they email you the tracking before they sent the package? I thought/read that's what they normally do.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Saw this paired with the tan leather strap and this is really pushing me to order one


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> that is one fine looking time piece, that blue is spot on just the way I like it.
> 
> did they email you the tracking before they sent the package? I thought/read that's what they normally do.


Lol yeah I think that they normally do. John emailed me before. That's how we realized the mistake with the regular date wheel and me not receiving one of the first blue bezel watches. He originally thought 2+ weeks until completion. I guess they wanted to surprise me??  It's all good... I'm super excited! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> Well I had a pleasant surprise package delivered to my house today !! That wasn't two weeks... they must've put a rush on it. More pics and wrist shot to follow later.
> 
> Josh
> 
> ...


Sweet looker!

Was the black datewheel a surprise, or did you special order it that way?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Sweet looker!
> 
> Was the black datewheel a surprise, or did you special order it that way?


No the surprise was receiving it today... was expecting it in another week or so. I ordered the reverse (black) dial originally way back when... I almost gave up regarding the blue bezel but am sooo glad that I didn't. I'm going to try to record a video with my initial thoughts and some more views of the watch. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Looks excellent with the black date wheel - looking forward to your video and overall impressions of the fit/finish.


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## AtlasMaximus (Aug 26, 2019)

KingKF1221 said:


> Did you order the blue as well?


I should get it in a couple of days!


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## jacktaylor1811 (Apr 26, 2021)

kgrier said:


> Here you go folks! Blue Bezel, Smurfs, No Date, SW200-1 - Model 201076LSICB - in the wild.
> 
> View attachment 15906596


Wow that looks good, ordered the sand lume one can't wait for it to arrive.


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## AtlasMaximus (Aug 26, 2019)

Here's my blue


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

AtlasMaximus said:


> Here's my blue
> View attachment 15928318


That looks amazing. Congrats!


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Sorry guys&#8230; work and family got in the way of my unboxing and sizing plans. I filmed an unboxing and will get it to YouTube soon&#8230; but here's a couple wrist shots (7.5 inches). I may be impartial but I think it's gorgeous . No way am I getting rid of OR II. Very thankful for this gift from the wifey .


















__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


















Happy Friday to everyone!

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

jhinson1 said:


> Sorry guys&#8230; work and family got in the way of my unboxing and sizing plans. I filmed an unboxing and will get it to YouTube soon&#8230; but here's a couple wrist shots (7.5 inches). I may be impartial but I think it's gorgeous . No way am I getting rid of OR II. Very thankful for this gift from the wifey .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice, Josh! It looks great.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jhinson1 said:


> Sorry guys&#8230; work and family got in the way of my unboxing and sizing plans. I filmed an unboxing and will get it to YouTube soon&#8230; but here's a couple wrist shots (7.5 inches). I may be impartial but I think it's gorgeous . No way am I getting rid of OR II. Very thankful for this gift from the wifey .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's looking super refined.

I want that exact same set up with a flat crystal without the Cyclops.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jhinson1 said:


> Sorry guys&#8230; work and family got in the way of my unboxing and sizing plans. I filmed an unboxing and will get it to YouTube soon&#8230; but here's a couple wrist shots (7.5 inches). I may be impartial but I think it's gorgeous . No way am I getting rid of OR II. Very thankful for this gift from the wifey .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


May I ask what other watches you have in your collection? and how does the OR2 compare?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> It's looking super refined.
> 
> I want that exact same set up with a flat crystal without the Cyclops.


Nope!! No one else gets the negative date wheel. John said just me 

Just kidding! I'm sure it'll look great with or without the cyclops too btw.

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

jhinson1 said:


> Nope!! No one else gets the negative date wheel. John said just me
> 
> Just kidding! I'm sure it'll look great with or without the cyclops too btw.
> 
> ...


 hahahahahaha


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> May I ask what other watches you have in your collection? and how does the OR2 compare?


It's definitely at the top. I have mostly micro-brands TBF at this point. I had a Ginault Golden Sands Lume V1 previously and this one is finished even better - the brushed finish on the case and bracelet is awesome and the bezel action is superb.

I currently have one Seiko monster V2, Orient Star, Maranez Samui, two Steinharts (both beautiful GMT's), a solar G-shock, a Zelos Horizons GMT with meteorite dial, a no name pilot watch, and a couple others. I have a couple others that I need to sell as well. I probably need to get rid of a GMT too but I can't decide which one .

It's a great hobby! You should see my razor collection (vintage and modern).

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)

On an Everest blue


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

WastedYears said:


> On an Everest blue
> 
> View attachment 15948056


wow looks stunning!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

what do you guys think about the GS lume? I know it's unique to Ginault but the Smurf (bgw9) seems more versatile


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> View attachment 15956372
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the GS lume? I know it's unique to Ginault but the Smurf (bgw9) seems more versatile


They are both good in their own right. My V1 OR had GS lume and my V2 has the Blue Smurf lume. I debated for a while but with me going for the blue bezel, it was definitely the best call.










With a black bezel, it's probably personal choice but I think that the GS lume looks great as well. 

Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

Anyone looking for a video or more views of the blue bezel OR II, I just posted my unboxing video on YouTube yesterday. Enjoy.

BTW, I really like the finishing of the bracelet and the contrast of the brushed finishing on the tops of the lugs contrasted with the polished sides of the case. I now have a couple watches to sell . Spoiler alert, the Ginault isn't going anywhere! Happy Tuesday everyone. 






Josh

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

KingKF1221 said:


> View attachment 15956372
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about the GS lume? I know it's unique to Ginault but the Smurf (bgw9) seems more versatile


I ordered the Smurf but just last night changed the order to GS. I think both look great but I feel the GS makes it look more unique and a little less like a Rolex lookalike (ironic I know given how many other aspects are the same!).


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Also, the photo you linked is also my favourite one of the OR


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Anyone looking for a video or more views of the blue bezel OR II, I just posted my unboxing video on YouTube yesterday. Enjoy.
> 
> BTW, I really like the finishing of the bracelet and the contrast of the brushed finishing on the tops of the lugs contrasted with the polished sides of the case. I now have a couple watches to sell . Spoiler alert, the Ginault isn't going anywhere! Happy Tuesday everyone.
> 
> ...


Many thanks for the video Josh, looks great with the negative date wheel, nice choice


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## jprangley (Apr 8, 2014)

Huge shout out to John and his over the top customer service. I was one of those OR 2 early purchases, and realized my bezel insert pip area was starting to slightly chip. Even though I was beyond the 1 year warranty, he still took in the watch, fixed the bezel and more and even buffed out my bracelet without even asking. This watch maker truly cares about the quality of the watch and a high level of customer service. I have both the OR and OR 2 and would get a next generation without hesitation. This experience truly makes me appreciate the depth of his work, and the love I have for the Ginault watch.

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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Anyone order one around Apr/May and still waiting? Have been keeping an eye for a shipping notification since John told me middle to end of July I would receive it. curious before I bug him about it.


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## RangerThom (May 16, 2021)

alznc said:


> Anyone order one around Apr/May and still waiting? Have been keeping an eye for a shipping notification since John told me middle to end of July I would receive it. curious before I bug him about it.


I ordered toward the end of April and it just arrived. I kept my cool with John just politely checked in periodically, not all emails went answered but he eventually did get back to me and told me it was on the way. Everything arrived in flawless condition, totally worth the wait, nothing else out there like it.


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## animusolus (Aug 3, 2009)

alznc said:


> Anyone order one around Apr/May and still waiting? Have been keeping an eye for a shipping notification since John told me middle to end of July I would receive it. curious before I bug him about it.


Ordered just after mid-April, and the watch shipped today. I emailed John once for a status, and he was polite and prompt in his response.

I previously had an OR1 no date, which I sold on to fund a WatchCo SM300 no-date. The build quality on the OR1 was quite good. I dealt with John once while I owned that watch as well, and I found his customer service to be above and beyond.

Based upon what I've read and seen, I'm highly anticipating the OR2. I almost bought a Tudor 79090 or 79190 to match my wife's Lady Sub, and ultimately bought this instead.


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Ordered mine today. 
Was tossing up between this and the Monta Oceanking for what seems like forever. 
I have settled on no date, blue ceramic with smurf lume.

I love Monta, my Triumph is a fantastic watch, and that OK looks great. I even got very deep into purchasing the OK before pulling out as there was always something niggling my brain and holding me back from buying. Once I came back here again and saw that blue bezel I just knew this was my next watch.

John expects current orders to be shipped in Sep/Oct so will have to wait for a bit, however I am glad to be in the mix.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

I ordered mid May, was expecting it mid July but given the delays I’ve heard elsewhere then I expect I’ll be looking at mid to late August. I’ve not chased John. 

Really looking forward to it. I ordered smurf with date originally but now switched to a golden sands with date instead.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Silverye said:


> I ordered mid May, was expecting it mid July but given the delays I've heard elsewhere then I expect I'll be looking at mid to late August. I've not chased John.
> 
> Really looking forward to it. I ordered smurf with date originally but now switched to a golden sands with date instead.


Same here. I ordered in late May, so I'm not expecting to hear until later this month.


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## animusolus (Aug 3, 2009)

My mid-April order arrived yesterday. The watch would have arrived Monday, but a signature was required (makes sense) and I was at work.

Once all of the protective film was removed (an approximately half-hour exercise), sizing the bracelet was a cinch. No extra strap was included, but I'm not complaining; I don't like divers on leather, and I wasn't a fan of the OR1's 2-piece Zulu.

The build quality is incredibly good for the price, as many others have said. The bracelet is a significant upgrade over the OR1's, due to improved articulation of the links. The link articulation is nearly as good as an Omega 1171, but the OR2's bracelet and clasp are obviously more solid. The toplink binds slightly against the 4:00 and 8:00 lugs when articulated to an acute angle (relative to the anterior side of the endlink) but not enough to cause concern.

Manipulating the crown to the 1st and 2nd positions takes a bit more pulling than I'm accustomed to, but it's not alarming. No issues with winding or date changes.

The bezel action is also much improved - very silky. Similar to (and possibly better than) a 5-digit Sub (I can't compare to a 6-digit). I almost wish the bezel had slightly more resistance to more effectively prevent inadvertent adjustment. I have a 2254.50 with a PlanPro mod that has a fantastic bezel action. The OR2's is smoother, but the PlanPro's provides a bit more security.

Applied markers here are seemingly shorter than in the OR1 - presumably because Ginault's ETA clone (with its taller pinion) is not employed in the OR2.

If I can find some time (a big if), I'll see if I can do an essay comparing to the 2254.50. In the meantime, I suppose this and a pic will do (because forums)&#8230;


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

animusolus said:


> My mid-April order arrived yesterday. The watch would have arrived Monday, but a signature was required (makes sense) and I was at work.
> 
> Once all of the protective film was removed (an approximately half-hour exercise), sizing the bracelet was a cinch. No extra strap was included, but I'm not complaining; I don't like divers on leather, and I wasn't a fan of the OR1's 2-piece Zulu.
> 
> ...


Nice review. Thanks for posting!


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## animusolus (Aug 3, 2009)

Hotblack Desiato said:


> Nice review. Thanks for posting!


Thanks much. It was a quick and dirty.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

animusolus said:


> My mid-April order arrived yesterday. The watch would have arrived Monday, but a signature was required (makes sense) and I was at work.
> 
> Once all of the protective film was removed (an approximately half-hour exercise), sizing the bracelet was a cinch. No extra strap was included, but I'm not complaining; I don't like divers on leather, and I wasn't a fan of the OR1's 2-piece Zulu.
> 
> ...


I am pretty sure the OR2 uses the same H4 canon pinion as well based on the ones I have handled. It looks spot on from most pictures, gives that nice field of depths juxtaposted against those amazing looking applied indices.

the OR2's bezel turning is way better than the 5-digit Sub imho, it's very similar to the hand feel you'd get on the new 116610 or the 126610 Sub. With the new structure inside you can get almost unlimited turning without wearing down the click spring as how you would on the older design.


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## WastedYears (May 21, 2015)




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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Alright y'all finally got my ORII in. It's a fantastic piece. The case is very well finished, no sharp edges, or marks on the polishing.
The bezel turns very smoothly (maybe too much). The turn has no hiccups in it and no back play.

The watch and band are lighter than I expected and honestly wish there was a bit more heft to them.

I was worried about the case seeming too small since my DD is a Marathon GSAR. The case is the perfect size IMO. I bought this watch to see if it would make me sell my 2254.50. The jury is still out on that. The ORII is so modern and crisp, but the 2254.50 is a classic.

My only issue is with the clasp. I can't get my finger underneath the bevel to undo the lock. This is definitely something that should have been picked up on before it was sent out (especially for the $). The locking portion sits lower than the bevel. I have to squeeze from the side to remove it.

The glide lock clasp is a great feature and I use it daily.

I'm still undecided if the watch is worth the price tag. It does have some features not seen on typical micros (glide lock clasp, engraving on crown). Ths watch is beautifully finished and the detail except
For the clasp lock is awesome. If this watch was $800, It would be a winner all day. I will keep it for sure as I enjoy it and have no plans of pursuing other pieces.

If youre in the market for a submariner type watcch, and aren't concerned with budget I would definitely recommend the ORII.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

alznc said:


> Alright y'all finally got my ORII in. It's a fantastic piece. The case is very well finished, no sharp edges, or marks on the polishing.
> The bezel turns very smoothly (maybe too much). The turn has no hiccups in it and no back play.
> 
> The watch and band are lighter than I expected and honestly wish there was a bit more heft to them.
> ...


$800 now a days get you a watch a few levels below what the OR2 is offering if you are counting all the finner details like the engraved ceramic insert with sputtered inlays, the inky high-gloss dial (which no other brand is really doing high-gloss dial at this price point), and personally, Ginault's hands and indices are forged so well with those micro beveled edges.

These are the type of things the demonstrates their ability and their dedicate to the craft and what sets them apart from the others. The next watch with these type of details would be Monta but they are 2K and above.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

My first Ginault arrived with me yesterday and I'm delighted. Quality of the workmanship on display is wonderful and it's completely met my high expectations. This is right up there with my Omega and Rolex in my humble opinion in terms of fit and finish. Such a comfortable watch on the wrist.


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## kgglonghorn (Jan 31, 2021)

I am re-ordering mine as I ordered the wrong one the first time. That said, the craftsmanship is second to none on these and the watch is gorgeous. I have it listed out here , but I am reconsidering and thinking about keeping it. Its just so nice and feels great in the hand and on the wrist.


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

kgglonghorn said:


> I am re-ordering mine as I ordered the wrong one the first time. That said, the craftsmanship is second to none on these and the watch is gorgeous. I have it listed out here , but I am reconsidering and thinking about keeping it. Its just so nice and feels great in the hand and on the wrist.


Which one are you ordering?


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## kgglonghorn (Jan 31, 2021)

same one I have except blue aluminum bezel...I originally ordered black on black with sand lume and aluminum bezel.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

The blue does look really nice. I was very temped myself.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

kgglonghorn said:


> same one I have except blue aluminum bezel...I originally ordered black on black with sand lume and aluminum bezel.


You could ask John about the cost to switch the bezel insert. I think he is generally happy to work with people

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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

Other than Rolex, I don't think any other watch has the bracelet that integrates this well into the case.
Ridicilous










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## woodruffm (Jan 16, 2015)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Other than Rolex, I don't think any other watch has the bracelet that integrates this well into the case.
> Ridicilous
> 
> 
> ...


I've sold both of my previous OR2s but I'm getting a hankering for either this exact config or the blue/gold aluminium bezel.


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## DuckaDiesel (Oct 19, 2016)

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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Just got notice that my watch is being shipped.
It's been a bit of a wait and I have changed my mind a thousand times so I am looking forward to this arriving.
Ordered late July.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Dogs857 said:


> Just got notice that my watch is being shipped.
> It's been a bit of a wait and I have changed my mind a thousand times so I am looking forward to this arriving.
> Ordered late July.


You will love it 

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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

DuckaDiesel said:


> Other than Rolex, I don't think any other watch has the bracelet that integrates this well into the case.
> Ridicilous
> 
> 
> ...


I'd say the North Flag and the Nautilus bracelets integrate pretty well into their cases. But the Rolex/Ginault is solid for sure.


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## Dohcpower81 (Jul 21, 2017)

Is there any discount being offered by ginault?


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Dohcpower81 said:


> Is there any discount being offered by ginault?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They might have some spaces left in their pre order 2 - best to email John at [email protected] to see.

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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

It's here.

Initial impressions are that I am not disappointed. I ended up changing to GSL dated version and was worried that the colour wouldn't be that good. After all bright white smurf lume is classic right??Didn't matter in the end, I really like this. Might just have to save up and get a blue bezel no date as well though, just because.

Photo's do not do this thing justice, I will try and take some better ones later.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

Superb that you like it so much - same model as the one I’ve got and I’ve loved it in this first week of ownership. The quality is outstanding and it’s probably the most comfortable watch I’ve owned.


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## Gmjoffercollect (Jan 22, 2020)

WastedYears said:


> View attachment 16094918


Man that is beautiful! Gloss black dial really pops against the blue bezel!!


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

jhinson1 said:


> Sorry guys&#8230; work and family got in the way of my unboxing and sizing plans. I filmed an unboxing and will get it to YouTube soon&#8230; but here's a couple wrist shots (7.5 inches). I may be impartial but I think it's gorgeous . No way am I getting rid of OR II. Very thankful for this gift from the wifey .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was never really into the cyclops before but I'm really liking it on the negative date wheel. Looks great in the pics and video. I think it's the first cyclops I've seen with a negative date. How are you liking it?


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

marcs said:


> Was never really into the cyclops before but I'm really liking it on the negative date wheel. Looks great in the pics and video. I think it's the first cyclops I've seen with a negative date. How are you liking it?


Truly loving it.  This version of the OR-II is one of my favorite watches. I get comments / questions about it all the time. I think there are some more getting out to consumers. I've forwarded several interested forum members and YouTubers over to John at Ginault for inquiries.

I'm glad (after much internal debate!!) that I settled on this version with the blue ceramic bezel and negative date wheel. The blue ceramic bezel was delayed for a while resulting in me waiting longer than I wanted, but the end result was unique but awesome. For me, it's an absolute keeper.  Ponder long and hard and order the one that speaks the most to you. Enjoy!

Josh

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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

jhinson1 said:


> Truly loving it.  This version of the OR-II is one of my favorite watches. I get comments / questions about it all the time. I think there are some more getting out to consumers. I've forwarded several interested forum members and YouTubers over to John at Ginault for inquiries.
> 
> I'm glad (after much internal debate!!) that I settled on this version with the blue ceramic bezel and negative date wheel. The blue ceramic bezel was delayed for a while resulting in me waiting longer than I wanted, but the end result was unique but awesome. For me, it's an absolute keeper.  Ponder long and hard and order the one that speaks the most to you. Enjoy!
> 
> ...


I ordered the OR-ll a couple weeks ago in black after seeing your video and post. Black ceramic bezel, cyclops, negative date wheel.
"Dark Knight" version. ?


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## Nayche (Apr 22, 2012)

Very close to ordering one of these. Smurf’s, no date but I cannot decide between blue or black bezel.. 

are we 100% certain the bezel insert paint issue has been sorted?


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

Nayche said:


> Very close to ordering one of these. Smurf’s, no date but I cannot decide between blue or black bezel..
> 
> are we 100% certain the bezel insert paint issue has been sorted?


The issue was addressed, fixed, and taken care of since Nov last year. Ginault did a comprehensive update regarding that issue back then. I forgot where I read it but I am sure if you send them an email, John would be happy to explain the details to you.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

This is jaw dropping, what an amazing shot (by a member) and what an amazing watch really.


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Great shot


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

I don’t understand why their website isn’t really up to date with the new options and such. From what I’ve read here it seems that to order you have to contact John, know what you want and order. So the website it’s not really for ordering or configuring ur watch, like mix and match, build ur watch or anything like that. 


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Silverye said:


> My first Ginault arrived with me yesterday and I'm delighted. Quality of the workmanship on display is wonderful and it's completely met my high expectations. This is right up there with my Omega and Rolex in my humble opinion in terms of fit and finish. Such a comfortable watch on the wrist.
> 
> View attachment 16114802


This configuration is becoming a favorite of mine. I may have to go ahead and get one coming. But I’m torn between this and the clean white indices with date. Both have their place. Beautiful watch. 


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

Can anyone provide breakdown of the ocean rover timeline? Just bought this from here on WUS (today) and would like to know more about when it was produced and if it was an early OR1. 

I’ve owned several configurations before but never a gsl no date or1. This will look great on a nato.


















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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Porterjrm said:


> Can anyone provide breakdown of the ocean rover timeline? Just bought this from here on WUS (today) and would like to know more about when it was produced and if it was an early OR1.
> 
> I’ve owned several configurations before but never a gsl no date or1. This will look great on a nato.
> 
> ...


To me it looks like one of the pretty early models, probably sometime in 2017. Pretty early on they switched from engraving the brushed section of the caseback to the polished sections of the caseback. The beige 2-piece strap is something that was included with those early models to match the gold sand lume. 


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

I was emailing with John about my ORII having the bezel adjusted, and he shared some photos of the upcoming silent service model. It looks very nice. He told me not to share photos yet, but I don’t think sharing some of the specs will be too much. 41mm diameter, 20mm lug width, 47mm lug to lug, pre-order should open around the end of the year. Date and no date options, as well as either a 60 minute bezel or a 12 hour bidirectional bezel available. He didn’t specify, but I’m assuming the 60 minute bezel will still be uni-directional


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## Porterjrm (Aug 3, 2016)

badgerracer said:


> To me it looks like one of the pretty early models, probably sometime in 2017. Pretty early on they switched from engraving the brushed section of the caseback to the polished sections of the caseback. The beige 2-piece strap is something that was included with those early models to match the gold sand lume.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That’s some good info, thank you. I got photos of the card now. 1/25/2017 was the purchase date. 


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> I was emailing with John about my ORII having the bezel adjusted, and he shared some photos of the upcoming silent service model. It looks very nice. He told me not to share photos yet, but I don’t think sharing some of the specs will be too much. 41mm diameter, 20mm lug width, 47mm lug to lug, pre-order should open around the end of the year. Date and no date options, as well as either a 60 minute bezel or a 12 hour bidirectional bezel available. He didn’t specify, but I’m assuming the 60 minute bezel will still be uni-directional
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really can’t wait until he makes the photos public for the SS. Very high chance I’ll order straight away. I’m in love with my OR2.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Silverye said:


> Really can’t wait until he makes the photos public for the SS. Very high chance I’ll order straight away. I’m in love with my OR2.


It has really thrown me for a loop. I have been trying to save up for a speedy, but especially knowing the quality of Ginault products I am very tempted to order the SS as soon as it launches. Them my dilemma is do I sell my ORII to fund it, do I sell my Oris 65? Not sure


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> It has really thrown me for a loop. I have been trying to save up for a speedy, but especially knowing the quality of Ginault products I am very tempted to order the SS as soon as it launches. Them my dilemma is do I sell my ORII to fund it, do I sell my Oris 65? Not sure
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At least both the ORII and the Oris 65 will have held their value well. I keep getting tempted by the speedy too - almost got one a couple years ago for my 50th (1969 - so a nice tie-in) but ended up making the mistake of going on a never ending waiting list with my AD for a Sub - which really isn't going to happen, even though we bought a nice Cartier there last year for my wife's 50th. I think you need to spend silly money for them to deem you worthy of buying a steel sports model from them. I may well visit the Speedy again myself, though I can't help feeling the SS will be better value overall.


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## danimal107 (Nov 28, 2019)

Sell the Oris. Not even close to the quality of the Ginault. Especially the diver 65...


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

danimal107 said:


> Sell the Oris. Not even close to the quality of the Ginault. Especially the diver 65...


The quality definitely isn’t on par, but it is without a doubt the most comfortable watch I own. Still might sell it though, we’ll see. I have a couple of months to decide


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Silverye said:


> At least both the ORII and the Oris 65 will have held their value well. I keep getting tempted by the speedy too - almost got one a couple years ago for my 50th (1969 - so a nice tie-in) but ended up making the mistake of going on a never ending waiting list with my AD for a Sub - which really isn't going to happen, even though we bought a nice Cartier there last year for my wife's 50th. I think you need to spend silly money for them to deem you worthy of buying a steel sports model from them. I may well visit the Speedy again myself, though I can't help feeling the SS will be better value overall.


Funny, I do have enough money set aside for a speedy, but I am on the waitlist for an explorer and want that money available in case they do get back to me. I am quickly discovering that I am unlikely to ever get one, but I want to give it a while to see if I win that AD lottery before I give up and use that money on the speedy. In the meantime I am trying to save up to be able to afford both, but that will take quite a while


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

badgerracer said:


> Funny, I do have enough money set aside for a speedy, but I am on the waitlist for an explorer and want that money available in case they do get back to me. I am quickly discovering that I am unlikely to ever get one, but I want to give it a while to see if I win that AD lottery before I give up and use that money on the speedy. In the meantime I am trying to save up to be able to afford both, but that will take quite a while
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I’ve expressed an interest on the new explorer too - and a blue dial datejust and OP but I’ve had nothing from them at all. Really makes me go off the brand tbh - lol  I’m a bit on the fence though re the 36mm size, I’m sort of used to the 39+ range now. 

I like ginault as I feel I can still purchase them, get the excellent quality but still keep funds in case I get that call - though in truth I enjoy the ORII so much that I’m not sure much else would get wrist time.


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## danimal107 (Nov 28, 2019)

Anyone know if they will continue making the OR2 after the silent service comes out? I heard rumors they will stop the OR series. Figured I'd ask here before I bother John about it...


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

danimal107 said:


> Anyone know if they will continue making the OR2 after the silent service comes out? I heard rumors they will stop the OR series. Figured I'd ask here before I bother John about it...


I can't see him doing that. It's a great seller.


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

I am going to have to bow out here on the ORII. 

The clasp and I just don't get along, despite a lot of trying. It seems my wrist is just too flat and this clasp, especially the swing arm, are just a little too curved. I've tried a number of things but just have to accept that I am not going to be able to wear this comfortably. By the end of the day I am getting pins and needles in my hand, the only way to avoid it is to wear this far looser than I like.
For those who have a Monta, and those who decry their very long flat clasp, that fits me like a glove.
Very upset about this, though it is nothing against the watch itself, this thing is killer. Not everything can fit everyone and I am one of those this watch is not for. Surprisingly I guess this rules out the Submariner as well if things are all as close as everyone says.
Those who know where to look can find it if they are interested.

Good luck and I will certainly watch the upcoming releases with interest, however I think I need to head back to Monta as I know those fit me.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

Why not just change the clasp? I've done that on a couple of watches that had clasps I didn't like for one reason or another ...


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Avo said:


> Why not just change the clasp? I've done that on a couple of watches that had clasps I didn't like for one reason or another ...


I'm not a fan of doing this, I much prefer to keep watches complete. I know it seems a bit stupid, especially when I am moving on a watch I really like. But for me it's all or nothing.


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

I get it, we all have our deal-breakers.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Dogs857 said:


> I am going to have to bow out here on the ORII.
> 
> The clasp and I just don't get along, despite a lot of trying. It seems my wrist is just too flat and this clasp, especially the swing arm, are just a little too curved. I've tried a number of things but just have to accept that I am not going to be able to wear this comfortably. By the end of the day I am getting pins and needles in my hand, the only way to avoid it is to wear this far looser than I like.
> For those who have a Monta, and those who decry their very long flat clasp, that fits me like a glove.
> ...


Bummer about the fit issues on this one. I think you're right about a modern submariner being off the table also. The bracelets do fit very similarly. 

But at least you have the Monta with its amazing bracelet. I have a gilt Sky Quest and it is wonderful.


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Alright ya'll I have come to confess a few things.

1. The ORII is probably the closest watch to a submariner out there.
2. For the money I would probably rather have an ORII
3. After owning the ORII and spending way more to acquire a 116610LN I was not that impressed.

I recently sold my ORII and purchased a 116610LN to scratch a life long itch. I also purchased a Tudor Pelagos as it is my favorite every day wear watch. I hate to say that besides the initial reaction of "I finally bought a Rolex" it didn't do much for me. The ORII is an extremely well built watch, the proportions are awesome (similar to a 5 digit sub) and the clasp is one of the best I've seen outside of Rolex/Tudor.

Keep going back and forth on selling the 116610LN and purchasing a date version of the ORII.


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

alznc said:


> Alright ya'll I have come to confess a few things.
> 
> 1. The ORII is probably the closest watch to a submariner out there.
> 2. For the money I would probably rather have an ORII
> ...


Do it! You won't be worried about wearing the ORII out and about, risking the occasional bump or scratch, like you might with the Sub. It will get a lot more wrist time, and you will receive a lot more enjoyment out of the watch.


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## gumpracer (Apr 19, 2013)

Dogs857 said:


> I am going to have to bow out here on the ORII.
> 
> The clasp and I just don't get along, despite a lot of trying. It seems my wrist is just too flat and this clasp, especially the swing arm, are just a little too curved. I've tried a number of things but just have to accept that I am not going to be able to wear this comfortably. By the end of the day I am getting pins and needles in my hand, the only way to avoid it is to wear this far looser than I like.
> For those who have a Monta, and those who decry their very long flat clasp, that fits me like a glove.
> ...


That’s really too bad. Hate when that happens. But fitting everyone’s anatomy 100% of the time is impossible. Personally, the OR1 fits me better than any bracelet I’ve ever tried.

I just picked up two Grand Seikos, and spent over a week tweaking the fit, only to settle on a “good enough” feel. Amazing, since I paid over 7x the price of what I paid for the OR1 for each.

Unfortunately, I’m also parting with my OR1 because two Grand Seikos. Have no doubt we will meet again someday, Ginault.


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

alznc said:


> Alright ya'll I have come to confess a few things.
> 
> 1. The ORII is probably the closest watch to a submariner out there.
> 2. For the money I would probably rather have an ORII
> ...


I've now had my ORII for a month now and I adore it - most comfortable watch I've owned and IMHO the best made (and I've a Seamaster and DateJust). I thought it would be a good stop gap until my AD eventually calls me for the Sub on I'm the waiting list for - but 2 years down the line, and despite spending more with them recently on a new watch for my wife, I really can't see myself ever getting that call - plus the Rolex AD experience is pretty ****ty overall. 

I had also considered buying one from the grey market for a premium but this ORII has really changed my mind on that. If the AD does call then I will still buy the Sub at RRP but it will end up being a safe queen that will get passed onto my kids. 

My mate has a 6-digit Sub and I've tried lots of second hand ones on in watch dealers shops plus plenty of 5-digit ones too - and I really don't think they feel special enough to warrant the price premium over the ORII - and having experienced the ORII bracelet and clasp then I don't think I could live with the 5-digit Sub. 

The next watch I'm going to buy will be the Silent Service from Ginault when it gets released - and I'll then happily swap between it and my current ORII as my daily wears (plus I've got a quartz Scurfa that I wear when working outside in the garden, that I adore too).

I think you should buy another ORII date or wait until the Silent Service gets released (or even better get both!).


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Silverye said:


> I've now had my ORII for a month now and I adore it - most comfortable watch I've owned and IMHO the best made (and I've a Seamaster and DateJust). I thought it would be a good stop gap until my AD eventually calls me for the Sub on I'm the waiting list for - but 2 years down the line, and despite spending more with them recently on a new watch for my wife, I really can't see myself ever getting that call - plus the Rolex AD experience is pretty ****ty overall.
> 
> I had also considered buying one from the grey market for a premium but this ORII has really changed my mind on that. If the AD does call then I will still buy the Sub at RRP but it will end up being a safe queen that will get passed onto my kids.
> 
> ...



Exactly my thoughts. There is so much anticipation built up with the "waiting games" at the AD. I purchased mine grey. While its a great piece it left me kind of meh feeling after wearing it. The oyster bracelet is the best I have worn don't get me wrong. The bezel and finishes I have seen on par with other watches in 2k to 5k range. 

The Ginault is a great piece and you will still have some $ left over to take a vacation. Rolex has done a fantastic job of marketing their products. It would be a lot closer if you could still buy a sub for $6k. I bought mine thinking I would wear it, watch it appreciate and then give it to my son. Decided I'd be better off with a Ginault and investing the difference. 

I haven't heard about the Silent Service. Fill me in.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

alznc said:


> I haven't heard about the Silent Service. Fill me in.


Silent Service is Ginault’s upcoming original design diver. John told me he is expecting to open the pre-order around the end of the year, so probably delivered sometime next year. Specs are 41mm diameter, 47mm lug to lug, 20mm lug width, offered with date or no date, and either 60 minute unidirectional bezel or 12 hour bidirectional bezel 


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

alznc said:


> Exactly my thoughts. There is so much anticipation built up with the "waiting games" at the AD. I purchased mine grey. While its a great piece it left me kind of meh feeling after wearing it. The oyster bracelet is the best I have worn don't get me wrong. The bezel and finishes I have seen on par with other watches in 2k to 5k range.
> 
> The Ginault is a great piece and you will still have some $ left over to take a vacation. Rolex has done a fantastic job of marketing their products. It would be a lot closer if you could still buy a sub for $6k. I bought mine thinking I would wear it, watch it appreciate and then give it to my son. Decided I'd be better off with a Ginault and investing the difference.
> 
> I haven't heard about the Silent Service. Fill me in.


Badgerracer has kindly provided as much detail as I could (more in fact, as I didn't know it came with a Date option).

I recently tried on a JLC Master Control Chronograph Calendar - now that felt in a different league to me than the Sub - as it should since it costs £13k. I think the ORII and the Silent Service will scratch my everyday watch itch and I'll save up a bit longer for the JLC


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

badgerracer said:


> Silent Service is Ginault’s upcoming original design diver. John told me he is expecting to open the pre-order around the end of the year, so probably delivered sometime next year. Specs are 41mm diameter, 47mm lug to lug, 20mm lug width, offered with date or no date, and either 60 minute unidirectional bezel or 12 hour bidirectional bezel
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exciting news! I heard/read something about this Silent Service project somewhere but all I could find was some pictures from 2011. If it looks anything like that it's definitely a winner. 

Should we start a separate thread for the Silent Service? Kinda like what we did for Halios' SF/FW/Universa


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

KingKF1221 said:


> Exciting news! I heard/read something about this Silent Service project somewhere but all I could find was some pictures from 2011. If it looks anything like that it's definitely a winner.
> 
> Should we start a separate thread for the Silent Service? Kinda like what we did for Halios' SF/FW/Universa


Yup… pics are relatively easy to find online. This was planned way back when Ginault first started. 

It appears as most likely a winner. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nurpur (Feb 14, 2016)

Something here - though not that appealing:









GINAULT Silent Service MARK-II


By TLex At the moment I don't have any firm specifications for the new SILENT SERVICE Mark-ii, but would imagine it to share the same or ve...




oceanictime.blogspot.com


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## AdrianGrf12 (Mar 20, 2020)

Just saw this picture posted on Instagram, WOW! the details are just amazing


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## AdrianGrf12 (Mar 20, 2020)

nurpur said:


> Something here - though not that appealing:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not your cup of tea? I love that dial design.


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## AdrianGrf12 (Mar 20, 2020)

KingKF1221 said:


> Should we start a separate thread for the Silent Service? Kinda like what we did for Halios' SF/FW/Universa


I second this motion, @badgerracer since you are the one who provided us the updated information on the Silent Service, would you like to do us the honor? =)


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## AdrianGrf12 (Mar 20, 2020)

delete due to double post


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Silent Service is a old project from Ginault which never came out. Let's see if it is released soon finally.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

AdrianGrf12 said:


> I second this motion, @badgerracer since you are the one who provided us the updated information on the Silent Service, would you like to do us the honor? =)











The Ginault Silent Service Thread


My Ginault Ocean Rover is having the bezel adjusted (it was a little tight for my liking) and while I was talking with them they shared some info about their upcoming original design model, the Silent Service. Here are some specs they shared with me: 41mm diameter 47mm lug to lug 20mm lug width...




www.watchuseek.com





I started it, although this is a busy time at work for me so not sure how active I’ll be for the next month (today is my first day off after an 11 day stretch)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

badgerracer said:


> The Ginault Silent Service Thread
> 
> 
> My Ginault Ocean Rover is having the bezel adjusted (it was a little tight for my liking) and while I was talking with them they shared some info about their upcoming original design model, the Silent Service. Here are some specs they shared with me: 41mm diameter 47mm lug to lug 20mm lug width...
> ...


Thanks! I will follow the new thread as well, and will also add to it whenever I can gather more info about it.


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## John_Logan (Sep 15, 2021)

Hello, who has a photo of a black bezel, magnifier and black date window? I can't find see how it looks


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

John_Logan said:


> Hello, who has a photo of a black bezel, magnifier and black date window? I can't find see how it looks


I ordered one. Haven’t seen photos yet...


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

What's not to love!


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)




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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

KingKF1221 said:


> View attachment 16205724


Very Nice. Can’t wait to see that same watch with a negative date wheel and magnifier.


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

marcs said:


> Very Nice. Can’t wait to see that same watch with a negative date wheel and magnifier.


I have seen those around, posted somewhere. I will see if I can find a picture of that meanwhile here is one that I saw which totally blew my mind, the crystal is so clear it's amazing


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## KingKF1221 (Mar 6, 2020)

This is another nice photo of the Ginault Kermit...amazing AR crystal


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## Burningtyger (Oct 10, 2021)

I placed an order for an OR2 Smurf with a black ceramic bezel at the end of October. waiting is hard


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Here is my 4th OR....I was very nervous opening this one as I've only owned smurfs...but I was pleasantly surprised. The GSL really warms up the watch. This is an OR2, so I have to say the bracelet is much better than OR1 and the glidelock does not need any wax (lube) to make it slide. The bezel also works properly...best bezel action out of the lot I've owned. I'll still be getting a OR2 Smurf ceramic no date...I'm sure I can figure out how to keep both in rotation. I was actually thinking of turning this into a more accurate Milspec...we'll see...but I do like it.


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

LARufCTR said:


> Here is my 4th OR....I was very nervous opening this one as I've only owned smurfs...but I was pleasantly surprised. The GSL really warms up the watch. This is an OR2, so I have to say the bracelet is much better than OR1 and the glidelock does not need any wax (lube) to make it slide. The bezel also works properly...best bezel action out of the lot I've owned. I'll still be getting a OR2 Smurf ceramic no date...I'm sure I can figure out how to keep both in rotation. I was actually thinking of turning this into a more accurate Milspec...we'll see...but I do like it.
> View attachment 16240898


Nice. I think Ginault GSL is the best of its kind in terms of that kind of color. And at this point I think almost pretty much every watch company except for Rolex has their version. Even Omega with their new “Bond” watch. Ginault’s is closest to Submariner Tritium patina.
Is that the flat or domed crystal?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

marcs said:


> Nice. I think Ginault GSL is the best of its kind in terms of that kind of color. And at this point I think almost pretty much every watch company except for Rolex has their version. Even Omega with their new “Bond” watch. Ginault’s is closest to Submariner Tritium patina.
> Is that the flat or domed crystal?


Crystal = Stepped and flat. Now that I have a GSL, I can say, I don't think any pics capture the real color....its much lighter than I anticipated...less vintage and really like an off white....in some light it actually almost looks light yellow. 

I will say this about the GSL...lume performance is a bit of a let down. It does't come close to my beater SKX or Mini Turtle....Seiko is really the standard here, so I do compare all to those. I can confidently say the Smurf had better "lights off" brightness...it also would glow during the day when you went into a low light area...but to its credit the GSL was still visible 4-hrs after lights out....I like lume, but its not a deal breaker for me...I would have liked the GSL to be brighter....they pile enough of it in the markers and hands....


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

LARufCTR said:


> Crystal = Stepped and flat. Now that I have a GSL, I can say, I don't think any pics capture the real color....its much lighter than I anticipated...less vintage and really like an off white....in some light it actually almost looks light yellow.
> 
> I will say this about the GSL...lume performance is a bit of a let down. It does't come close to my beater SKX or Mini Turtle....Seiko is really the standard here, so I do compare all to those. I can confidently say the Smurf had better "lights off" brightness...it also would glow during the day when you went into a low light area...but to its credit the GSL was still visible 4-hrs after lights out....I like lume, but its not a deal breaker for me...I would have liked the GSL to be brighter....they pile enough of it in the markers and hands....


Good to know on the comparison. Thanks.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Do any of my OR geek brethern have the dims for the aluminum bezel insert...both the OD and the ID. Cheers!


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## Burningtyger (Oct 10, 2021)

I like the golden sand but I‘m not feeling how it looks with the ceramic bezel.


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Burningtyger said:


> I like the golden sand but I‘m not feeling how it looks with the ceramic bezel.


The GSL actually looks great with the ceramic. 
It's more of a cream colour and can look pretty white in good light and much darker in low light. It's a pretty nice lume actually and I never found a problem with it.
But if you are not feeling it then you will probably never feel it. Psychology is a powerful thing. Get a BGW9 version and don't look back.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Dogs857 said:


> The GSL actually looks great with the ceramic.
> It's more of a cream colour and can look pretty white in good light and much darker in low light. It's a pretty nice lume actually and I never found a problem with it.
> But if you are not feeling it then you will probably never feel it. Psychology is a powerful thing. Get a BGW9 version and don't look back.


I'm still planning to do a quick write up on my OR2 Aluminum GSL I just purchased here 2nd hand.....I will say all the pics don't do the GSL justice. It actually makes the watch seem more "luxury diver" than the BGW9....and I've owned 3 smurfs...FWIW...I think it would probably look very sophisticated and smart w/the ceramic...as I also said, I'm still planning to buy a smurf ceramic...I think I have to have both


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Some pics....To go all out on the milspec vibe I bought a couple of NATO straps...Dark Green and Gold. Both look great w/the GSL. But watch really pops w/the black B&R Horween leather strap w/the ecru (off-white) stitching. The black strap looks awesome in the flesh. Sorry, my snaps are not so great...but I'll be wearing it on the B&R until further notice!


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## Burningtyger (Oct 10, 2021)

My OR2. Ordered it on 10/30, and it arrived today.


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## guspech750 (Dec 15, 2013)

KingKF1221 said:


> This is another nice photo of the Ginault Kermit...amazing AR crystal
> View attachment 16227478













Sent from my toilet using Kakatalk. Flushed with only a single wipe.


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## John_Logan (Sep 15, 2021)

Hello from Russia, from cold Siberia. Today I received my order. First impressions. He's great. It seems to me that it sat on my hand 17 cm perfectly. Looks very festive. Marks, dial, arrows. I am delighted. The sound of the Bezel is amazing, I really have nothing to compare with, only Steinhart, but Steinhart has a worse sound, and it itself does not compare.
Of the minuses, it may be easily soiled, but for now that's all.
Maybe someone can tell you if there are protective films on the bracelet clasp? I haven't filmed my own yet.
I apologize if English is not very good, I wrote from Google translator.


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

John_Logan said:


> Hello from Russia, from cold Siberia. Today I received my order. First impressions. He's great. It seems to me that it sat on my hand 17 cm perfectly. Looks very festive. Marks, dial, arrows. I am delighted. The sound of the Bezel is amazing, I really have nothing to compare with, only Steinhart, but Steinhart has a worse sound, and it itself does not compare.
> Of the minuses, it may be easily soiled, but for now that's all.
> Maybe someone can tell you if there are protective films on the bracelet clasp? I haven't filmed my own yet.
> I apologize if English is not very good, I wrote from Google translator.
> ...


That looks fantastic! I have the same version - ceramic bezel insert and Blue Smurfs lume. Love it. Also have an OR1 with GSL no date and an OR2 with the aluminum bezel insert, date, and Gold Sand Lume. Trying to pick a favourite is like trying to pick which of my children I love more...! Enjoy that one and wear it in good health


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## toto453 (Dec 16, 2019)

Concerning the need for a clasp protection, I would say that the clasp and bracelet are not scratches magnet.


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## John_Logan (Sep 15, 2021)

Darwin said:


> Enjoy that one and wear it in good health


Thanks a lot!)


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I set my OR2 over a month ago...and its -27 seconds according to www.time.gov which I use as reference. Impressive.


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

How’s the Ginault Glidelock clasp? When you fold it to close, does it click well and stay closed or does it depend more on the fliplock to keep it closed? I’d love to know compared to the original Rolex, how does it feel?

Asking because i need a good Glidelock clasp for an Oysterflex bracelet I ordered from an Etsy seller in Hong Kong. The one that came with that Oysterflex is pretty poor quality.

Cheers

W


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## bjn74 (May 17, 2017)

eldasher said:


> How’s the Ginault Glidelock clasp? When you fold it to close, does it click well and stay closed or does it depend more on the fliplock to keep it closed? I’d love to know compared to the original Rolex, how does it feel?
> 
> Asking because i need a good Glidelock clasp for an Oysterflex bracelet I ordered from an Etsy seller in Hong Kong. The one that came with that Oysterflex is pretty poor quality.
> 
> ...


I’ve actually bought the ginault bracelet to try on my 5 digit explorer 2 and GMT. The clasp and bracelet are both very good quality. I’ve also attached the ginault clasp directly to Rolex bracelet. 

I’ve also had a 6 digit submariner with the glide lock and for the price the ginault quality is great. Clicks closed and solid without the flip lock. 


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

bjn74 said:


> I’ve actually bought the ginault bracelet to try on my 5 digit explorer 2 and GMT. The clasp and bracelet are both very good quality. I’ve also attached the ginault clasp directly to Rolex bracelet.
> 
> I’ve also had a 6 digit submariner with the glide lock and for the price the ginault quality is great. Clicks closed and solid without the flip lock.
> 
> ...


@bjn74

Thank you very much! I really appreciate the feedback. 


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

Dogs857 said:


> I am going to have to bow out here on the ORII.
> 
> The clasp and I just don't get along, despite a lot of trying. It seems my wrist is just too flat and this clasp, especially the swing arm, are just a little too curved. I've tried a number of things but just have to accept that I am not going to be able to wear this comfortably. By the end of the day I am getting pins and needles in my hand, the only way to avoid it is to wear this far looser than I like.
> For those who have a Monta, and those who decry their very long flat clasp, that fits me like a glove.
> ...


Gather around kids while I relate my tale of woe.

I sold my ORII due to what I believed was a clasp issue. The pain and pins and needles were real and I put it down to this as the only thing that had changed was the new watch. So I sold the ORII and bought a Monta Oceanking. Then the pain returned, as did the pins and needles. "It can't be the clasp" I mused, "the Triumph fits perfectly".
Just to check I pulled out the Triumph and wore it for a week, no pain.
Put the OK back on, pain returned.

Turns out I have a broken wrist. Took a decent whack in the nets getting ready for the cricket season and just figured it was taking a bit longer to walk off now that I am a bit older. Spoke to my doc on a regular checkup, he poked a few areas and got an x-ray. Yep, broken wrist, clean break, he wasn't sure how I was still getting around doing things.

So why didn't the Triumph cause issues? Well it turns out that watch is a fair bit lighter and so doesn't hit the right spot, like the heavier divers do. The divers were resting right on the break and causing the pain. Now I have to get it set with pins as I took too long to get it looked at.

Spewing I sold this watch now as I prefer it to the OK on a number of levels. Apparently John has either ceased production or closed off round 2 of preorders so I will have to wait until this either goes up to full price for order or cruise the second hand market.

Feel like a bit of an idiot but you live and learn.

This is the way


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## Hotblack Desiato (Mar 7, 2018)

Dogs857 said:


> Gather around kids while I relate my tale of woe.
> 
> I sold my ORII due to what I believed was a clasp issue. The pain and pins and needles were real and I put it down to this as the only thing that had changed was the new watch. So I sold the ORII and bought a Monta Oceanking. Then the pain returned, as did the pins and needles. "It can't be the clasp" I mused, "the Triumph fits perfectly".
> Just to check I pulled out the Triumph and wore it for a week, no pain.
> ...


Wow, sorry to hear about the broken wrist. But I'm sure it's a relief to find out the problem wasn't the ORII clasp. 

Here's hoping you have a speedy and complete recovery.


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## GarbanzoNegro (Nov 3, 2017)

bjn74 said:


> I’ve actually bought the ginault bracelet to try on my 5 digit explorer 2 and GMT. The clasp and bracelet are both very good quality. I’ve also attached the ginault clasp directly to Rolex bracelet.
> 
> I’ve also had a 6 digit submariner with the glide lock and for the price the ginault quality is great. Clicks closed and solid without the flip lock.
> 
> ...


Same here. I use the Ginault clasp on my Submariner with the original bracelet. Very happy with it.


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## bes-b2 (Jan 16, 2009)

Just trying to understand how Ginault works..I think their website is a bit hard to follow. Is there a OR2 with green ceramic bezel?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

bes-b2 said:


> Just trying to understand how Ginault works..I think their website is a bit hard to follow. Is there a OR2 with green ceramic bezel?


They really haven’t updated their website for years, mostly working by word of mouth since launching the ORII. 

They only ceramic options are black or blue, although there is a green aluminum option that you can request. At this point though you would have to buy one second hand and ask Ginault to swap it for you as they have stopped taking new orders for the ORII. My understanding is they are fulfilling the current orders, but otherwise are prepping to launch the silent service, their upcoming original design diver. 


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Dogs857 said:


> Gather around kids while I relate my tale of woe.
> 
> I sold my ORII due to what I believed was a clasp issue. The pain and pins and needles were real and I put it down to this as the only thing that had changed was the new watch. So I sold the ORII and bought a Monta Oceanking. Then the pain returned, as did the pins and needles. "It can't be the clasp" I mused, "the Triumph fits perfectly".
> Just to check I pulled out the Triumph and wore it for a week, no pain.
> ...


Sorry to hear about your wrist, but good to hear that it is getting taken care of. I think you are going to be looking at the second hand market as Ginault has stopped taking new orders. Maybe wait a few months until they release the silent service and see if that would be more to your preference. You could always email John and tell him your story and maybe he would be willing to make an exception of one more ORII, but I don’t know what the likelihood of success will be


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

badgerracer said:


> They really haven’t updated their website for years, mostly working by word of mouth since launching the ORII.
> 
> They only ceramic options are black or blue, although there is a green aluminum option that you can request. At this point though you would have to buy one second hand and ask Ginault to swap it for you as they have stopped taking new orders for the ORII. My understanding is they are fulfilling the current orders, but otherwise are prepping to launch the silent service, their upcoming original design diver.
> 
> ...


I didn’t know they’re no longer taking orders. Man. I’ve wanted to get a no date blue ceramic for a while but other watches kept popping up and never got around to it…I’ll try emailing their service email and see if I get a response. 


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

eldasher said:


> I didn’t know they’re no longer taking orders. Man. I’ve wanted to get a no date blue ceramic for a while but other watches kept popping up and never got around to it…I’ll try emailing their service email and see if I get a response.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm hoping its just the pre-order phase is closed. Now we may have to pay retail


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

Anyone have a OR2 no date blue ceramic they’re thinking of selling? 


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

A few have popped up but not many… not sure how many blue bezel OR-II’s exist. Mine is a blue bezel with negative date wheel (first one!) and it is staying with me. Good luck in your search. 


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

eldasher said:


> Anyone have a OR2 no date blue ceramic they’re thinking of selling?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do like the concept of the blue ceramic bezel...and I almost bought one recently that was on here...but I've seen maybe 10 pics of it and each one makes it look different shade of blue...its some color of blue...which will be a nice contrast that's for sure...good luck with your search...as another poster stated..they come up very rarely....which will make finding one all the more sweet....


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## Dogs857 (Apr 5, 2018)

eldasher said:


> Anyone have a OR2 no date blue ceramic they’re thinking of selling?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Check the Facebook group.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Ooops! Sure I can only wear 1 at a time, but that's a nice problems to have....


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

LARufCTR said:


> Ooops! Sure I can only wear 1 at a time, but that's a nice problems to have....
> View attachment 16436042


Love the middle one…exactly what I’ve been looking to add to my collection. Wear them in good health. 


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

eldasher said:


> Love the middle one…exactly what I’ve been looking to add to my collection. Wear them in good health.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, helping you out… this was just posted on REDDIT

You’re welcome  

Josh


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Watchexchange/comments/ssb1yb


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

eldasher said:


> Love the middle one…exactly what I’ve been looking to add to my collection. Wear them in good health.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, its a very cool piece...blue is dark, looks nice. The BGW9 is the brightest I've ever seen...like refrigerator white


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

The BGW9 glows like a torch....


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Joining the ORII crew. Build quality is excellent. Perfect shade of blue.


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

Got mine back from John after having the bezel adjusted










While it was away I had considered selling it to help fund another purchase, but now I am reconsidering and thinking it will stay. It is just such a nice watch 


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

I have quite a few divers to compare the ginault to and I have to say that the quality is up there for top spot in terms of fit and finish. 

I wasn't initially on board with paying the higher price for an "homage" for quite a while. I would watch videos comparing the ginault to other well known brands and micros. It always stood up quite well. 

I had been looking for a blue dialed diver to add to the collection and was set on picking up a halios fairwind in blue with 60 min bezel. I've gone through 5 or 6 seaforths over time and really loved that style more than the fairwind. Unfortunately the SF doesn't come with a bracelet and even though I had a ginault bracelet to put it on, it never quite fit the way I wanted it to. I ultimately decided on the fairwind instead.

I'm also a fan of no date watches. A 5 digit no date sub is my grail. I recently saw a blue bezel ORII pop up for sale and though that it looked awesome and would fit exactly what I was looking for. That one sold within a day. Another one happened to pop up on Reddit and after some back and forth with the seller, I had a blue bezel no date ORII.

It has quickly become one of the favorites in a rotation of 6 (some well liked divers to compete with as well). We shall see if it sticks around but so far the honeymoon period is quite strong.


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## eldasher (Aug 14, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

ryan850 said:


> I have quite a few divers to compare the ginault to and I have to say that the quality is up there for top spot in terms of fit and finish.
> 
> I wasn't initially on board with paying the higher price for an "homage" for quite a while. I would watch videos comparing the ginault to other well known brands and micros. It always stood up quite well.
> 
> ...


Ha....I bought a no date blue ceramic as well....very nice piece. I'm currently waiting for a custom strap to switch out for summer. And then I went a bought another no date OR2 back ceramic.....needless to say, it will be an all ceramic summer !!!!


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## Riddim Driven (Jun 3, 2007)

These are beautiful. Never should have sold my OR1, especially at the new product launch price. Uhhggg

You all paying full pop for these? Well maybe LAR isn’t 😉 Seems like slim pickings of the OR’s now 🤔

Enjoy your Ginault’s!!!


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## Porsche993 (Jan 6, 2017)

Just put my OR1 on the bracelet for the first time since I got it in 2018. Its like falling in love all over again. Holding up well even though the OR1 is my daily wear is testimony to the build quality and craftsmanship. No complaints whatsoever, except maybe feeling guilty for not wearing my JLC more often.



http://imgur.com/yuaCjcW


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

Ooops, I did it again!...or as DJ Khaled would say...."Another One..." Currently having 4 OR2's in rotation seems rather excessive...but they are all different  I'm happy I have one back on a 2-piece perlon....possibly the most comfortable way for me to wear an OR beside on leather....This will be my summer GADA


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## Darwin (Jan 28, 2012)

LARufCTR said:


> Ooops, I did it again!...or as DJ Khaled would say...."Another One..." Currently having 4 OR2's in rotation seems rather excessive...but they are all different  I'm happy I have one back on a 2-piece perlon....possibly the most comfortable way for me to wear an OR beside on leather....This will be my summer GADA
> View attachment 16637686


I'm so glad it's not just me! I have three in rotation - all different, of course (ORI GSL no date, ORII GSL date and aluminium bezel insert, and ORII Glowing Smurfs with date and ceramic bezel. The differences between the three are greater than one would think)! Keep resisting the urge to pickup a blue ceramic version. And am absolutely staying away from the Secret Service...

PS yours looks great on the Perlon.


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

@Darwin...I totally understand. My OR2s are:

1. GSL No Date Aluminum Bezel on Black Colareb
2. Smurf Date Black Ceramic on OE bracelet
3. Smurf No Date Blue Ceramic on light tan Colareb (thinking of putting on Red Perlon for summer)
4. Smurf No Date Black Ceramic on Black Perlon

The Explorer is getting ZERO time lately.....


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

the OR2 is really a super watch -- I have just 1 & really like it. 

i've been to the Ginault website twice & oggled at the SS & did all the selections for bezel, date & lume (no choice) & then exited. Ach!
not sure how long this abstinence will last......


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## danimal107 (Nov 28, 2019)

This watch looks rather familiar. I hope you enjoy it and wear in good health...!!!

-Dan




LARufCTR said:


> Ooops, I did it again!...or as DJ Khaled would say...."Another One..." Currently having 4 OR2's in rotation seems rather excessive...but they are all different  I'm happy I have one back on a 2-piece perlon....possibly the most comfortable way for me to wear an OR beside on leather....This will be my summer GADA
> View attachment 16637686


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

@danimal107....its on the road w/me as I type...since arriving its only left my wrist for runs...otherwise, as stated its my current GADA


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## ryan850 (Dec 29, 2017)

Pedis with my girls.


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Is Ginault still selling the OR2 with the date sans cyclops? The only page I can find is for the 201175LSCIN. And when did they creep up to $1,700? Not sure they are worth the coin anymore.


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## jhinson1 (Jan 1, 2018)

alznc said:


> Is Ginault still selling the OR2 with the date sans cyclops? The only page I can find is for the 201175LSCIN. And when did they creep up to $1,700? Not sure they are worth the coin anymore.


Yes you can order it the way you want if you contact John directly - not sure what the current cost is as mine was in the first preorder. Good luck  

Email John direct - [email protected]

Josh


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## Silverye (Nov 18, 2019)

jhinson1 said:


> Yes you can order it the way you want if you contact John directly - not sure what the current cost is as mine was in the first preorder. Good luck
> 
> Email John direct - [email protected]
> 
> ...


Unfortunately they aren’t taking new orders for the OR2, though you might lucky to get a cancellation slot. All focus is on the silent service now.


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## RangerThom (May 16, 2021)

Is there anyone else that wishes the OR had the option for the non maxi hour plots like a 16610 or 14060?


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## badgerracer (May 16, 2018)

RangerThom said:


> Is there anyone else that wishes the OR had the option for the non maxi hour plots like a 16610 or 14060?


For a little while they did offer this, it was known as the prototype








(Pic from Ginault)

You will see them pop up for sale occasionally, but I don’t think they sold nearly as well as the maxi-plots models which I assume is why they discontinued it 


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## RangerThom (May 16, 2021)

Thanks Badger, I have seen them pop up from time to time as well, passed on the ones I did see due to the fact that they were heavily worn and still pretty expensive. I'm sure I am in the minority that thinks the non maxi case works better with smaller lume plots when the lume is not directly applied. The 16610 LV seems to be only small Rolex Sub exception to this. Obviously there are bigger hour markers on vintage subs with lume being directly applied on matte dials, which doesn't bother me for some reason. Funny to see where preferences for such small things end up


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## marcs (Nov 12, 2012)

RangerThom said:


> Is there anyone else that wishes the OR had the option for the non maxi hour plots like a 16610 or 14060?


Both purchased from Rolex A.D. I had a 14060M and a 114060. Didn’t like the small hour markers (and bracelet) too much on the 14060M. And didn’t like the thick lugs on the 114060. 
Ginault Ocean Rover ll. Best of both worlds and my favorite watch. 😎

Also wanted the Sea Dweller style ceramic bezel. Never really liked all the dead space on the 114060 ceramic bezel. 
Thanks Ginault.👍


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## mtbmike (Sep 12, 2007)

RangerThom said:


> Is there anyone else that wishes the OR had the option for the non maxi hour plots like a 16610 or 14060?


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## LARufCTR (Dec 21, 2017)

I've been wearing this since I got it and that means all my other watches are taking a very long nap. I only take this off to shower and work out. I wish John had made a version in Grade 5 Ti before switching over to SS...that would have been so amazing. I would have paid 3x for that one...then I could wear it running, etc.....and then I'd probably pair down to 2 watched cause that would be a lifer...








Anyway, we are having a great summer together....hope you are all wearing yours in good health!


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

marcs said:


> Both purchased from Rolex A.D. I had a 14060M and a 114060. Didn’t like the small hour markers (and bracelet) too much on the 14060M. And didn’t like the thick lugs on the 114060.
> Ginault Ocean Rover ll. Best of both worlds and my favorite watch. 😎
> 
> Also wanted the Sea Dweller style ceramic bezel. Never really liked all the dead space on the 114060 ceramic bezel.
> Thanks Ginault.👍


Have owned a 16600, 16610, 114060, 116610. The OR2 is the only one I regret selling.


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## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

Apologies for not reading through every post here but a quick question about the lugs and how the watch sits on the wrist. Are the lugs comparable to those of Steinhart's Ocean One as far as being relatively straight?


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Fergfour said:


> Apologies for not reading through every post here but a quick question about the lugs and how the watch sits on the wrist. Are the lugs comparable to those of Steinhart's Ocean One as far as being relatively straight?


No the lugs turn down beautifully, but not too much.

Google 16610 or 14060. Look at those lugs. Very similar. Couldn’t bond with the Steinhart lugs. Ginault lug shape is fantastic.


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## Arnosch (Jun 22, 2021)

Probably a foolish question but, how does one order an OR2?

I’ve gone to the Ginault site and all the OR1’s are labeled discontinued with the exception of the blue one, or there is a drop down to preorder the Silent Service. I don’t see any reference to the Rover 2.


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## lestorfreemon (Jul 25, 2017)

Arnosch said:


> Probably a foolish question but, how does one order an OR2?
> 
> I’ve gone to the Ginault site and all the OR1’s are labeled discontinued with the exception of the blue one, or there is a drop down to preorder the Silent Service. I don’t see any reference to the Rover 2.


As far as I know all OR models have been discontinued. Only way to get one now is on the second hand market. 


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## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

The 181875GSLID is the only non-Silent Service model still available.


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## alznc (Apr 17, 2017)

Found one for sale and immediately scooped it up. Like having an old friend back on the wrist.


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## RangerThom (May 16, 2021)

The ginault ORs have maxi plots like the 16610 LV. Any one know how these compare in size to those on the maxi dial 5513?


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