# Seagull 3620 movement



## gigfy

Hi guys,

I've recently gotten interested in the Panerai homage watches. The style didn't agree with me at first but I like the Chinese Unitas 6497/6498 movements. Now they are looking OK to me.

I found this movement by accident on the bay. Just thought I'd post it so you could put the name with the face. 

Sea-gull 3620 (Unitas 6498)









Cheers,
gigfy


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## Chascomm

gigfy said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've recently gotten interested in the Panerai homage watches. The style didn't agree with me at first but I like the Chinese Unitas 6497/6498 movements. Now they are looking OK to me.
> 
> I found this movement by accident on the bay. Just thought I'd post it so you could put the name with the face.
> 
> Sea-gull 3620 (Unitas 6498)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


Cool! Thanks.

I did not realize that the ST36 series included a 6498-clone i.e. for seconds at 6 o'clock. I wonder if they'll do a skeleton of this one too :think:


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## M4tt

I have one of these movements and I have nothing but praise for it. (which, as you all know, isn't like me at all) It's big, basic and solid with perfectly acceptable timekeeping.


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## gigfy

I found these and am more confused than ever.

The seller 'thinks' they are Seagull and are better than the other 'lower quality' 6497 clones. Notice the differences between this one and the 3620 in the original post. Nicer finish, different regulating lever, no '17 Seventeen Jewels" markings.
















It looks similar to the Hangzhou 9011 but without the pearlage on the dial plate..









And here are a few great photos of another generic 6497 with the Swan Neck regulator. I've contacted the seller and asked about this movement. Although this movement is not on the Hangzhou website, I suspect they make it because the same seller also has the skeletonized 6497 in gold & SS.























Hangzhou 9611
























Of the dozen or so Panny Homage watch sellers on eBay, these are the only two that did not have the Swan Neck regulator. I'm sure they are others.

This one looks like the top movement, possibly a Seagull but has pearlage and not cotes de Geneve finish.









This one looks like the 3620 but doesn't have the '17 Seventeen Jewels" markings









I have heartburn. :-|

Cheers,
gigfy


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## Chascomm

And then there is this one from Minorva:








The style on the engraving is closer to Sea-Gull than Hangzhou, but still not so very Sea-Gull i.e. while there is a nice depth and cleanness to the cut, the framed edges are quite different from the '3 dimensional' look that Sea-Gull achieves with angled cuts.

Getting back to the 'solid' varieties; does Sea-Gull offer the ST36 with the curved/split bridges, or just the angular/solid version for both lepine and savonette layouts?

Speaking of which, does ETA offer both split and solid bridged version for both 6497 (lepine) and 6498 (savonette)?


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## Chascomm

Hey Walter, I just had a thought. If you ever get the answers to all these questions, perhaps you could write up a wiki entry for 'Unitas Clone'.


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## thodgins

I tried looking up any info for this movement on Tjseagull.com and currently there are no movements listed under the ST36 link. It is possible they are going to add this movement to the page and are just slow to do so. I wish they would also add on the two st24 and st26 that were shown over on TZ-UK.


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## gigfy

I got a few answers from our friendly sellers on eBay. Let's see what we have.

Helenarou

"The regulater like a dagger shape on Swan neck with Tianjain 6497"














"The regulater like a needle shape on Swan neck with Hangzhou 6497"














Shange521

"the movement is made by Hangzhou, this movement has the same measure with swiss 6497, namely, it can be fixed in a watch which originally uses swiss 6497 movement."














Manbushijie

"It is Hangzhou"








Wenping1970

"Hello my friend, The watch is Hangzhou mechanical (hand winding) movement, China make, "








I had to look it up but I believe all of these 6497 clones are lepine (seconds hand is in line with the crown). The Hangzhou clones are many in number, with most having the needle shaped regulator. Helenarou & Shange521 include the swan neck but the Manbushijie does not. The Wenping1970 does not have the needle and is the only one of the bunch that has the angular/solid bridge and pearlage finishing. The Helenarou, Shange521, & Manbushijie all have the curved/split bridge.

The Helenarou Tianjain (which I assume to be Seagull) and their Hangzhou models look almost identical, with the exception of the regulator but I'm afraid I'm not learned enough to spot any significant differences.

Here is a picture of the caseback of a Seagull ST3600SK pocket watch from the Seagullwatch.com website. It has the three fingers bridge (or whatever you call it). So I would assume they have a non-skeleton version. The ST3600S pocket watch does not have a picture of the caseback or we could verify that. o|








On closer inspection, I see that the ST3600SK has a needle shaped regulator. Dang it! Just when you think you have an acid test! :-|

I'd be more than happy to write a wiki entry with these findings. I'm not an expert, so I'm sure there would be a lot of holes in my text. I'm new to the whole wiki thing, so bear with me. Also, I'm still not absolutely clear on the rules to attach pictures. Is it OK if we give a reference?

Cheers,
gigfy


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## eact

gigfy said:


> Sea-gull 3620 (Unitas 6498)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


Is this movement only available on Panerai homage? :thanks


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## planetyang

Thanks to gigfy.
I think too difficult to tell which movement is Seagull or Hangzhou.Couldn't though the regulater.
I ask a web seller,he said the Hangzhou clone 6497 also has a dagger swan neck.


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## jakisbck

I have a couple of those skeletonised movt that I play with every now and then but the movement you put up almost fooled me for a minute...............;-) Good catch gif|>


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## planetyang

Though these pics provided by gigfy,I find some difference.
In the first pic,so called Seagull ST3600 movement,the red arrow point to a curve.








In the pic of so called Hangzhou clone,the red arrow point to a normal circular.








I think oringal Seagull or Hangzhou don't have a dagger shape on Swan Neck,even don't have 3/4 plate.


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## planetyang

And the clear of "The regulater like a dagger shape on Swan neck with Tianjain 6497" pic,also has a curve at the red arrow.


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## Chascomm

Brilliant detective work! :-!

The visually distinguishing feature that identifies the Sea-Gull ST36 is that there is a small cutaway in the lever bridge, whereas the PTS-Hangzhou 9000 has that bridge cut identically to the ETA-Unitas 6497/6498.


That's a pretty small difference :think: In fact it is so small and apparently pointless that I wonder if Sea-Gull did it simply so they could track where some of their movements end up.


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## gigfy

Chascomm said:


> Brilliant detective work! :-!


My sentiments exactly! Very good!! :-!

Planetyang, did you intercept my email to Seagull? (just kidding  ) I specifically asked the question "are there any design traits that are viewable from the back of the movement that would distinguish the Seagull ST36 from Hangzhou & other manufacturers?"

I've got a few more responses from eBay sellers to post and I'll try to combine all of this info into an article.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## planetyang

gigfy said:


> My sentiments exactly! Very good!! :-!
> 
> Planetyang, did you intercept my email to Seagull? (just kidding  ) I specifically asked the question "are there any design traits that are viewable from the back of the movement that would distinguish the Seagull ST36 from Hangzhou & other manufacturers?"
> 
> I've got a few more responses from eBay sellers to post and I'll try to combine all of this info into an article.
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


 I'm not a FBI to intercept you E-mail,haha.

Or maybe these two movement is manufactured by same factory?The diffrence is the same type 6497 but two version like 6497-1 to 6497-2?

I spent hours try to find out how to tell Seagull clone from Hangzhou or others,but at last,it's impossible!My god!


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## gigfy

OK, I'm going to try and tie all of this together. (if my computer will stop crashing!! o|)



planetyang said:


> I spent hours try to find out how to tell Seagull clone from Hangzhou or others,but at last,it's impossible!My god!


I believe you have found the missing clue already. The pallet bridge!! I did some research and think this is the difference between the Seagull ST36 and PTS-Hangzhou 9000 movements.



Chascomm said:


> The visually distinguishing feature that identifies the Sea-Gull ST36 is that there is a small cutaway in the lever bridge, whereas the PTS-Hangzhou 9000 has that bridge cut identically to the ETA-Unitas 6497/6498.


I agree that the Seagull ST36 has the cutaway (scalloped edges) next to the jewel on the pallet bridge and is held in place with two screws. The PTS-Hangzhou 9000 has an arched fingerlike pallet bridge with the jewel at the rounded end and is held in place by one screw. But the ST36 pallet bridge is almost exactly like the ETA 6497/6498.

Here are some pictures of ETA 6497/6498's that I've shamelessly borrowed that all show the scalloped pallet bridge.



















































Here are the pictures of the movements that are known Seagull ST36 or believed to be so. I'm not fully convinced of the second picture. I'd love to get a closer look.















Here are pictures of a few of the known PTS-Hangzhou 9000 movements. All have the arched fingerlike pallet bridge with one screw. Some of these have a small indention at the end of the finger close to the rounded end. If only this portion of the bridge is viewable, it may be hard to determine the manufacturer.







































The differences in the pallet bridge are also noticeable with the skeletons.

Seagull ST36








Hangzhou 9000








Swiss ETA 6498




















So I believe the skeletons used by Minorva88 & Samson328 are Seagulls.




















I'm going to post this while I can and avoid another crash.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## gigfy

I checked my eBay email and had a few more responses.

Here are some more PTS-Hangzhou that have the fingerlike pallet bridge with one screw. Two timezones on one of these!




















And Minorva88 confirmed that this is a Seagull! :-! :-!








Here is a 'Swiss' 6498 that sold on the bay. Hmmmm?? :-s I don't think so. :rodekaart I see the fingerlike pallet bridge.
[edit] _This may be an original Unitas 6498!!!_














Is it a foregone conclusion that the Seagull ST36 is a better movement than the PTS-Hangzhou 9000? What do you guys think?

Cheers,
gigfy


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## planetyang

Through pics above,Seagull's 6497 clones is 100% like Unitas 6497,the Hangzhou's at least has one difference with Unitas 6497.But this difference doesn't mean Hangzhou's clone is inferior to Seagull's.Maybe the Hangzhou's actually is inferior to Seagull one.

I asked a webseller yesterday,he told me some interesting thing about China made 6497 clones.A lot of fake Panerai watch's movement are China made 6497 clone,these movement are modified as request by fake watch maker.For example,the nice polish,the modified plate couldn't be done by fake watch maker,these work are accomplished by Seagull factory!Fake watch maker just buy a movement,assemble in watch case,then sell out.They don't have ability to modify watch movement.


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## aliasrichmond

gigfy said:


> I checked my eBay email and had a few more responses.
> 
> Here are some more PTS-Hangzhou that have the fingerlike pallet bridge. Two timezones on one of these!
> View attachment 106333
> View attachment 106334
> View attachment 106335
> 
> 
> And Minorva88 confirmed that this is a Seagull! :-! :-!
> View attachment 106336
> 
> 
> Here is a 'Swiss' 6498 that sold on the bay. Hmmmm?? :-s I don't think so. :rodekaart I see the fingerlike pallet bridge.
> View attachment 106337
> View attachment 106338
> 
> 
> Another forum member has just bought one of those:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=151570


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## Chascomm

aliasrichmond said:


> Another forum member has just bought one of those:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=151570


OK, I think I see it now :think:

The manufacturer's crest is a 'U' for Unitas, not 'ETA', so this is an old stock movement prior to Unitas being swallowed up by ETA. Possibly it is not actually a 6497, but an earlier calibre by Unitas. Does this mean that Hangzhou's movement looks like an older Unitas, whereas Sea-Gull's looks like a current ETA (apart from their 'fancy' skeleton version)?


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## gigfy

Chascomm said:


> OK, I think I see it now :think:
> 
> The manufacturer's crest is a 'U' for Unitas, not 'ETA', so this is an old stock movement prior to Unitas being swallowed up by ETA. Possibly it is not actually a 6497, but an earlier calibre by Unitas. Does this mean that Hangzhou's movement looks like an older Unitas, whereas Sea-Gull's looks like a current ETA (apart from their 'fancy' skeleton version)?


Yes, I believe you are correct. I was going to ask some of the other forums to post pictures of their Unitas 6497/6498, ETA 6497/6498, ETA 6497-1/6498-1, & ETA 6497-2/6498-2's for us to look over.

This link confirms that the ETA 6497/6498 (base movement or -0) has the one screw type pallet bridge.

There are a few other things I've read about that might help us along.

Shock Protection

One clue as to if the watch is Chinese or Swiss is the ring that holds the Incabloc shock protection spring. The Chinese versions (Seagull & Hangzhou) have two parallel openings. The Swiss version only has one parallel opening.




















But this doesn't help us when they use Novadiac shock protection! o|














Also, the Balance spokes are different on some of the ETA versions. I believe, but correct me if I'm wrong, that the -2 version have the flared spokes and the others have straight spokes. I can only find Chinese versions with flared spokes.




















There are other smaller, less visible clues that I will try to point out if I get some good pictures.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## thodgins

Here is a pic of the Unitas 6498 in my Eberhard Traversetolo. This is an upgraded movement with a screwed balance and triovis fine adjustment.


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## Tourby Watches

ok!

interesting details.

But why this discuss?

it is important if Seagull or Hangzhou???

I think both are from asia and both are poor quality. Sure - they looks not bad... but they are NEVER a alternative for a SWISS Unitas movement.

I had dozen of this asian clone movements. I saw all of them in person and have disassembled and assembled all. They are poor quality, exspecialy the keyless work mechanism. Many of this movements are with flaws and many of them demage within the first months.

As a german manufacturer who get 2 years warranty... would never sell any watch with a asian clone movement. I would get many of this watches back within the 2 years warranty period for repair. No thanks!

i will wait until the asian clone movements comes in the same level like Swiss movements. In the meantime i will enjoy my swiss Unitas movements:


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## Pawl_Buster

Tourby Watches said:


> ok!
> 
> interesting details.
> 
> But why this discuss?
> 
> it is important if Seagull or Hangzhou???
> 
> I think both are from asia and both are poor quality. Sure - they looks not bad... but they are NEVER a alternative for a SWISS Unitas movement.
> 
> I had dozen of this asian clone movements. I saw all of them in person and have disassembled and assembled all. They are poor quality, exspecialy the keyless work mechanism. Many of this movements are with flaws and many of them demage within the first months.
> 
> As a german manufacturer who get 2 years warranty... would never sell any watch with a asian clone movement. I would get many of this watches back within the 2 years warranty period for repair. No thanks!
> 
> i will wait until the asian clone movements comes in the same level like Swiss movements. In the meantime i will enjoy my swiss Unitas movements:


Do you here that noise? It's the sound of everyone on this Chinese watch forum stampeding to buy your overpriced 'German' watches...NOT!

I get a kick out of your marketing strategy:-d


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## gigfy

Tourby Watches said:


> ok!
> 
> interesting details.
> 
> But why this discuss?
> 
> it is important if Seagull or Hangzhou???


Hi Tourby Watches, Welcome. :-!

We discuss the Chinese movements because we are interested in them and like to talk about them. To each his own. 

It looks like you have quite a few Swiss movements. Would you mind taking some close ups and posting them. We need good shots of the following:

Unitas 6497
Unitas 6498

ETA 6497
ETA 6498

ETA 6497-1
ETA 6498-1

ETA 6497-2
ETA 6497-2

Hopefully with all of the movements you have, there are a few of the different calibres you can show off. :-d I am particularly interested in the older movements and the differences between them and the -1 & -2 varieties.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## gigfy

thodgins said:


> Here is a pic of the Unitas 6498 in my Eberhard Traversetolo. This is an upgraded movement with a screwed balance and triovis fine adjustment.


Hi thodgins,

Thanks for the pictures. :-! Would it be possible to get a close-up of the balance wheel that shows the manufacturer's stamp?

Thanks,
gigfy


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## Chascomm

Tourby Watches said:


> ok!
> 
> interesting details.
> 
> But why this discuss?
> 
> it is important if Seagull or Hangzhou???


Because that's what we do on a Chinese Mechanical Watch Forum. ;-) Besides, this all helps keep the consumers informed and the sellers honest. Too many Unitas-clones have been sold as the real thing in order to gain a Swiss price markup.


> I think both are from asia and both are poor quality.


Well yes, they are from "Asia". China actually. Go on, say it : "China" That wasn't so hard, was it?

By the way, Asia also includes Japan. Would you say that a Seiko Spring-Drive is poorly built because it is "Asian"?


> Sure - they looks not bad... but they are NEVER a alternative for a SWISS Unitas movement.


In fact that is exactly what they are; an alternative ... for the customers who want a modern pocket watch movement in their watches, but don't want to pay ETA prices. The question (and it is a good question) is whether the savings are worth it in the long run.


> I had dozen of this asian clone movements. I saw all of them in person and have disassembled and assembled all. They are poor quality, exspecialy the keyless work mechanism.


Curiously enough, although there are many Unitas-clone owners on this and several other forums, there have been surprisingly few complaints about the performance of these movements in actual use. And I've yet to hear about a keyless failure. 


> Many of this movements are with flaws and many of them demage within the first months.


That's very interesting :think: Can you tell us whether they were from Hangzhou or Sea-Gull. This could be a good reason for us wanting to know the difference between the two.

You see, this is part of the problem: You write off both of these Unitas clones as worthless because they are "Asian", yet you don't even know which one you had!


> As a german manufacturer who get 2 years warranty... would never sell any watch with a asian clone movement. I would get many of this watches back within the 2 years warranty period for repair. No thanks!


As a business person, it is appropriate that you be cautious, given the excellent track record of the ETA-Unitas. Also, given European buyer-resistance to "Asian" products, there may be little to gain by switching to a lower-cost alternative. However I would encourage you to carefully follow the discussion of Chinese watch movements on various forums to ensure that a business opportunity does not pass you by. After all, Claro-Semag have proven that a genuinely "Swiss Movement" can be made from a Chinese ebauche, so a viable alternative to ETA may not be so far away as you think. 


> i will wait until the asian clone movements comes in the same level like Swiss movements.


Well you'll be waiting a long time if you've not prepared to distinguish one "Asian" manufacturer from another.


> In the meantime i will enjoy my swiss Unitas movements


Please do.


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## John MS

gigfy said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I've recently gotten interested in the Panerai homage watches. The style didn't agree with me at first but I like the Chinese Unitas 6497/6498 movements. Now they are looking OK to me.
> 
> I found this movement by accident on the bay. Just thought I'd post it so you could put the name with the face.
> 
> Sea-gull 3620 (Unitas 6498)
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


Here's a website focused on Unitas movements but has information on the 6497/6498 movements too.

http://www.unitas.netfirms.com/

And here's some information about the various flavors of 6497 and 6498.

http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/ForumArchive/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=1172050


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## gigfy

John MS said:


> Here's a website focused on Unitas movements but has information on the 6497/6498 movements too.
> 
> http://www.unitas.netfirms.com/
> 
> And here's some information about the various flavors of 6497 and 6498.
> 
> http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/ForumArchive/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=1172050


Thanks John MS,

I have been to both sites and with the first one, they don't have any 'carefully labeled' pictures of 6497/6498's that I can find. They do have a lot of useful info of the older Unitas movements.

I linked the next website in my one of my posts. That is where I got this info "Also the pallet bridge & its attachment is redesigned in the -1 & -2, using 2 screws and an "incorporated" banking pins system." So the older Unitas movements had the 1 screw fingerlike pallet bridge but I'm having a hard time finding pictures of it.

Here is a clearly labeled 6431 with what I believe the pallet bridge looks like on the Unitas 6497/98 models.









What I was shooting for with my request for pics was 'clearly labeled' examples of each variation. But it seems as though most people (and websites) just use the descriptors Unitas / ETA / 6497 / etc. interchangeably so it is hard to pin down an exact calibre.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## thodgins

The only issue I see with the Unitas clone is servicing and parts down the road especially for say someone like me in the States. ETA/Unitas parts are more readily available and since it is a pocketwatch movement, any decent watchmaker can work on it and get the parts.

I feel the same way about my Seagull with the ST19 movement. When it comes time to get it serviced or fixed, who will be able to do it and get parts if necessary. Without a good network of parts, Seagull is at a disadvantage here in the States. I bought my watch from Jtbold, but he has disappeared into the woodwork. I doubt he'll be a good source anymore.


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## John MS

thodgins said:


> The only issue I see with the Unitas clone is servicing and parts down the road especially for say someone like me in the States. ETA/Unitas parts are more readily available and since it is a pocketwatch movement, any decent watchmaker can work on it and get the parts.
> 
> I feel the same way about my Seagull with the ST19 movement. When it comes time to get it serviced or fixed, who will be able to do it and get parts if necessary. Without a good network of parts, Seagull is at a disadvantage here in the States. I bought my watch from Jtbold, but he has disappeared into the woodwork. I doubt he'll be a good source anymore.


Servicing should not be a big deal. It's a basic big handwind movement that any competent watch repairman should be able to handle. Replacement mainspring and jewels should be no problem. Broken wheels, hairspring, etc., may be a problem.


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## Tourby Watches

I don´t think that i sell overpriced watches. When you check my website you will see that i have watches in a price range of 500€ with a full decorated swiss made Unitas (cotes de geneve, blued screws, polished pallet bridge, incabloc shock proof, nivarox balance wheel), german made case (same like $5.000 watches), sapphire crystal with double AR coated glass (inside and outside anti-reflection), genuine hand made strap, deployant buckle, thick and heavy maple wooden box.

do you know anything similar on a Asian watch?

what i want to say is... it don´t worth to buy a asian Unitas clone movement. The price difference between a Swiss Unitas movement and a Asian unitas movement is not very much. A Asian clone movement costs appr. $50 and the swiss movement (plain) costs about $100. 

I wouldn´t go for a Asian clone movement when the swiss version is only $50 higher.

I have serviced over 2.000 Unitas movements.... from cheap $50 asian clone movement to a $5.000 Dornblüth or Benzinger Unitas movement.

I do business since many years and have more knowledge about Unitas movements as anything else here.

It not worth it to save $50. Pay $50 more and go for a swiss plain Unitas.

Unitas movements aren´t very expensive. But on other movements like Valjoux 7750... this is a different point. A swiss 7750 costs 8 times higher as a Asian 7750. Here you could go for a Asian 7750 if you want save money. But on Unitas it not worth it to save $50.

Maybe someone has misunderstand me. I mean this in best opinion. The Asian Unitas movements looks good... but the quality is not like the nice look. You will see that many of this asian Unitas movements will demage within few months. But a $50 more expensive SWISS plain Unitas will work 50 years (if you overhaul it every 5 years). Spare parts of Swiss movements are availble everywhere... but spare parts for a Asian movement are very rare and difficult to find. And not all parts from Asian clone and Swiss movement are interchangeable. Most of the parts looks similar but will not fit.

I don´t think bad about Asian movements. I like Asian movements and i think they will be better and better from time to time. But they are not good enough today. I think it needs 5-10 years and the Asian movements could be a alternative for swiss movements. I hope so. But today their is a big quality difference between Asian-Swiss.


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## Pawl_Buster

Tourby Watches said:


> I don´t think that i sell overpriced watches. When you check my website you will see that i have watches in a price range of 500€ with a full decorated swiss made Unitas (cotes de geneve, blued screws, polished pallet bridge, incabloc shock proof, nivarox balance wheel), german made case (same like $5.000 watches), sapphire crystal with double AR coated glass (inside and outside anti-reflection), genuine hand made strap, deployant buckle, thick and heavy maple wooden box.
> 
> do you know anything similar on a Asian watch?
> 
> what i want to say is... it don´t worth to buy a asian Unitas clone movement. The price difference between a Swiss Unitas movement and a Asian unitas movement is not very much. A Asian clone movement costs appr. $50 and the swiss movement (plain) costs about $100.
> 
> I wouldn´t go for a Asian clone movement when the swiss version is only $50 higher.
> 
> I have serviced over 2.000 Unitas movements.... from cheap $50 asian clone movement to a $5.000 Dornblüth or Benzinger Unitas movement.
> 
> I do business since many years and have more knowledge about Unitas movements as anything else here.
> 
> It not worth it to save $50. Pay $50 more and go for a swiss plain Unitas.
> 
> Unitas movements aren´t very expensive. But on other movements like Valjoux 7750... this is a different point. A swiss 7750 costs 8 times higher as a Asian 7750. Here you could go for a Asian 7750 if you want save money. But on Unitas it not worth it to save $50.
> 
> Maybe someone has misunderstand me. I mean this in best opinion. The Asian Unitas movements looks good... but the quality is not like the nice look. You will see that many of this asian Unitas movements will demage within few months. But a $50 more expensive SWISS plain Unitas will work 50 years (if you overhaul it every 5 years). Spare parts of Swiss movements are availble everywhere... but spare parts for a Asian movement are very rare and difficult to find. And not all parts from Asian clone and Swiss movement are interchangeable. Most of the parts looks similar but will not fit.
> 
> I don´t think bad about Asian movements. I like Asian movements and i think they will be better and better from time to time. But they are not good enough today. I think it needs 5-10 years and the Asian movements could be a alternative for swiss movements. I hope so. But today their is a big quality difference between Asian-Swiss.


Chascomm pretty much summed up the general feeling her so there isn't anything to add.

Good bye Mr Trollby Watch :-d


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## Tourby Watches

Unitas 6497/98 * older models before Unitas was in the ETA company

ETA 6497/98 * with the old smaller pallet bridge



















ETA 6497/98 -1 * with new and bigger pallet bridge



















ETA 6497/98 - 2 * with higher beat of 21.600 A/h

@Alpha-Getty 
thank you for your compliments. If you think you can tease me. NEVER!


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## gigfy

Here is a picture of a Unitas 6497. The U and 6497 can be seen clearly. Along with the single screw pallet bridge. A design element still being used by PTS-Hangzhou in their 6497 clones.















And what I believe to be a Unitas 6498. The buyer has agreed to post better pics when he gets it.









If I'm not mistaken, ETA bought Unitas in 1983. The names & calibre numbers were retained. But for how long? When did ETA stop stamping the movements with U and began stamping them with ETA????? I guess these questions would better be asked elsewhere. ;-)

Cheers,
gigfy


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## Guest

This thread has become a real interesting one. Thank you all for your contributions and investigative work.


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## gigfy

I noticed that Invicta was selling some watches on TV a few days ago. They seem to do that pretty often. ;-)

The regular link on ShopNBC has it listed as Technica Swiss Ebauche Mechanical . But the 'on sale today only' page (thanks google cache!) has it listed as Japanese Technica Mechanical 3600K. I don't even have the energy to get started on the Swiss/Japanese descriptors.

What I find interesting is the _*3600K*_. Seagull 3600 assembled in Korea, perhaps? I'm certain that it is a Seagull. The three finger bridge and 2-screw pallet bridge look identical to the Seagull pocket watch. Given the Invicta connection to Seagull, I believe this may be one of the movements assembled in Korea by Seagull employees under the watchful eye of Swiss watchmakers. 















Cheers,
gigfy


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## Chascomm

gigfy said:


> I noticed that Invicta was selling some watches on TV a few days ago. They seem to do that pretty often. ;-)
> 
> The regular link on ShopNBC has it listed as Technica Swiss Ebauche Mechanical . But the 'on sale today only' page (thanks google cache!) has it listed as Japanese Technica Mechanical 3600K. I don't even have the energy to get started on the Swiss/Japanese descriptors.
> 
> What I find interesting is the _*3600K*_. Seagull 3600 assembled in Korea, perhaps? I'm certain that it is a Seagull. The three finger bridge and 2-screw pallet bridge look identical to the Seagull pocket watch. Given the Invicta connection to Seagull, I believe this may be one of the movements assembled in Korea by Seagull employees under the watchful eye of Swiss watchmakers.
> 
> View attachment 109856
> View attachment 109857
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> gigfy


There is a thread about the Technica 3600K on the Invicta forum on _that other site_ :-d so I contributed a link to the wiki. Given that some of the material could conceivably be construed as reflecting poorly on one of their site sponsors (not intentionally of course :-x) I'm a bit apprehensive about how it might be received.

Speaking of the wiki, I'm reeeeeeally looking forward to your Unitas-clone entry ;-)


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## gigfy

Chascomm said:


> There is a thread about the Technica 3600K on the Invicta forum on _that other site_ :-d so I contributed a link to the wiki. Given that some of the material could conceivably be construed as reflecting poorly on one of their site sponsors (not intentionally of course :-x) I'm a bit apprehensive about how it might be received.
> 
> Speaking of the wiki, I'm reeeeeeally looking forward to your Unitas-clone entry ;-)


I'll have to check it out today. I'm trying not to post from work anymore so, I'll pitch in when I get home.

Yeah, I know I've been slacking. I'm not the best author. I guess that's why I became an engineer. Truth be told, I'm more of the 'stick him in the back cubicle so he can go over the data' kind of engineer. So writing is not my forte. But I'll try.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## shandy

Tourby watches quote:
what i want to say is... it don´t worth to buy a asian Unitas clone movement. The price difference between a Swiss Unitas movement and a Asian unitas movement is not very much. A Asian clone movement costs appr. $50 and the swiss movement (plain) costs about $100. 


Well if this really is the case it shows yet again how we as consumers are ripped off by the swiss watch industry! Why is it that a watch that is identical in all but the movement is sometimes $300 more because it has a Swiss unitas movement? If the price difference is really only $50 why this difference?
For what it's worth I have had several new swiss watches and I think they are over priced, the hayday of the Swiss watch movement is long gone, they simply do not make the best watches in the world anymore,the simply make nice watches that on the whole are grossly over priced.
As to long term life span. well I think a lot of people from Asia would disagree with your argument that Swiss lasts longer, that is yet another myth put out by the Swiss watch industry.. oops. I think that should read nowadays, Swiss marketing industry!
Give me a grand seiko over Rolex any day, I would say that the Seiko is better made for the same sort of price! It really is time we stop thinking of the Swiss watch market as the creme de la creme, that simply is and un truth in this day and age!
I am getting an asian unitas movement watch, I am not choosing to spend an extra $300 of my hard earned money for a Swiss movement simply because I do not think it worth it and feel the argument about servicing and longevity largely incorrect, just look at the eveidence!
Give two unmarked movements to a watch repairer, one swiss, one asian and I bet they would not tell the difference!


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## Tourby Watches

this is your opinion. And it is ok.

but i think different.

You ask why are asian movements/watches so cheap and swiss movements/watches so expensive. Good point. The price different is not only for the quality... do you know the costs of a factory in EUORPE and in ASIA? Do you know how much costs european employee and how much costs a asian employee? I think the costs of EUROPEAN are 10 times higher as for ASIAN. How much taxes pay a EUROPEAN company and how much taxes a ASIAN company?

Do you know how much money spend all EUROPEAN companys for advertising and promotion? ASIAN companys don´t need to pay high costs for promotion/advertising... they live from the advertising/promotion costs of EUROPEAN companys and copy their products. That´s it!

do you know how much money spend all this EUROPEAN companys for invention/research/quality control/warranty... and how much money spend the asian? It is very easy to copy the ETA Unitas movements...

but Seiko, Casio, Citizen etc. is a different case. This companys are ok. But they build quarz watches. Seiko manual watches are also not cheap.. look the new manual line of Seiko - i see watches for over $5.000

cheers
Tourby


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## M4tt

> You ask why are asian movements/watches so cheap and swiss movements/watches so expensive. Good point. The price different is not only for the quality... do you know the costs of a factory in EUORPE and in ASIA? Do you know how much costs european employee and how much costs a asian employee? I think the costs of EUROPEAN are 10 times higher as for ASIAN. How much taxes pay a EUROPEAN company and how much taxes a ASIAN company?
> 
> Do you know how much money spend all EUROPEAN companys for advertising and promotion? ASIAN companys don´t need to pay high costs for promotion/advertising... they live from the advertising/promotion costs of EUROPEAN companys and copy their products. That´s it!


Ok, you seem to be arguing against yourself here. It is obviously the case that European makers have higher overheads at present. However, I can see no reason, apart from mere pleading, that this should mean that we the consumer should buy the more expensive product.



> do you know how much money spend all this EUROPEAN companys for invention/research/quality control/warranty... and how much money spend the asian? It is very easy to copy the ETA Unitas movements...


Well, as the Unitas 6497 has been around for a generation or more, not a lot on R&D, The QC is an issue but at the prices quoted you can afford to risk having to send a few back to get the good one (not that this seems to happen) The Seagull clone is a sound movement.



> but Seiko, Casio, Citizen etc. is a different case. This companys are ok. But they build quarz watches. Seiko manual watches are also not cheap.. look the new manual line of Seiko - i see watches for over $5.000


Seiko build a full range of quartz and mechanical for every niche. Check out the Seiko Spirit for example.


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## Tourby Watches

I don´t told you... you should buy a swiss watch/movement. You can go with the asian if you happy with it. And if you like the design.

I told that the swiss is better quality and the swiss has MUCH HIGHER costs... this is why the swiss is much more expensive. But i don´t told that all swiss movements/brands has good prices. Most of the swiss brands are overpriced... sure. 

But the asian brands make also a lot of profit. I am sure asian brands have the same (percental) profit on a watch like swiss brands. Some guys purchase a asian watch for $300 and think that is a STEAL. But this watch is build for $50 in Asia. Back to the Unitas movements... swiss decorated 6497-1 costs 100euro (factory price) and asian 6497-1 costs 10euro (factory price)... How should a swiss watch sold for the same price like asian watch???


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## Krnbk2

ianmedium said:


> Tourby watches quote:
> what i want to say is... it don´t worth to buy a asian Unitas clone movement. The price difference between a Swiss Unitas movement and a Asian unitas movement is not very much. A Asian clone movement costs appr. $50 and the swiss movement (plain) costs about $100.
> 
> Well if this really is the case it shows yet again how we as consumers are ripped off by the swiss watch industry! Why is it that a watch that is identical in all but the movement is sometimes $300 more because it has a Swiss unitas movement? If the price difference is really only $50 why this difference?
> For what it's worth I have had several new swiss watches and I think they are over priced, the hayday of the Swiss watch movement is long gone, they simply do not make the best watches in the world anymore,the simply make nice watches that on the whole are grossly over priced.
> As to long term life span. well I think a lot of people from Asia would disagree with your argument that Swiss lasts longer, that is yet another myth put out by the Swiss watch industry.. oops. I think that should read nowadays, Swiss marketing industry!
> Give me a grand seiko over Rolex any day, I would say that the Seiko is better made for the same sort of price! It really is time we stop thinking of the Swiss watch market as the creme de la creme, that simply is and un truth in this day and age!
> I am getting an asian unitas movement watch, I am not choosing to spend an extra $300 of my hard earned money for a Swiss movement simply because I do not think it worth it and feel the argument about servicing and longevity largely incorrect, just look at the eveidence!
> Give two unmarked movements to a watch repairer, one swiss, one asian and I bet they would not tell the difference!


I agree that the Asian clone 6497 has come a long way and it is a stout movement. I can tell you for a fact though you are grossly mistaken if you think that other than the stamp on the movement that the Swiss and Asian 6497 are anything alike in terms of quality. Being that I repair watches for a living and being that I have a special interest in the 6497 movement I can tell you when it comes to the fit/finish of these movements they are worlds apart. I also tend to disagree with regards to servicing and longevity. I have seen many Asian clone movements that need servicing right away due to dust and debris in the movement. this is simply unacceptable, and not something I have ever come across with an ETA movement. Whether you believe it or not, fit and finish play a role in longevity of a movement and in that respect the Swiss wins every time.


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## Chascomm

Krnbk2 said:


> I agree that the Asian clone 6497 has come a long way and it is a stout movement. I can tell you for a fact though you are grossly mistaken if you think that other than the stamp on the movement that the Swiss and Asian 6497 are anything alike in terms of quality. Being that I repair watches for a living and being that I have a special interest in the 6497 movement I can tell you when it comes to the fit/finish of these movements they are worlds apart.


Can you tell us from which manufacturer these particular movements came? Are you sure that you have examined both Sea-Gull and Hangzhou movements? Both are available in many different levels of finish, as is the ETA-Unitas.


> I also tend to disagree with regards to servicing and longevity. I have seen many Asian clone movements that need servicing right away due to dust and debris in the movement. this is simply unacceptable, and not something I have ever come across with an ETA movement.


Check out any of the several Invicta forums for photographic evidence of Swiss Made and Swiss Movement watches with debris visible through the glass back. It would seem that the problem is more usually with the watch assembler rather than the movement manufacturer. For example the same styrofoam-balls-in-the-movement problem in both Chinese (Sea-Gull ST36) and Swiss (Sellita SW200) powered Invicta watches. As I understand it these problems have been known to occur even when the entire watch is made in Switzerland.


> Whether you believe it or not, fit and finish play a role in longevity of a movement and in that respect the Swiss wins every time.


Yes, but at a price. For many customers, that price will be acceptable, particularly with the more high-grade variants; but for others the lower cost of the Chinese watch will decide whether or not to buy a Unitas-type watch.


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## shandy

For me one of the problems is that there is so much invested in the myth of the swiss watch movement, there is a German watch repairer near me and he out of hand dismisses anything that is not Swiss and God forbid if you mention Quartz( A joke according to him!) 
Then there is an Asian watch repairer a few doors down, he loves Swiss movements and also loves Asian movements, I asked him what country makes the best( he has been in the watch repair business for over 45 years) he said that there are good and bad from both countries and that to make a blanket statement that Swiss is better than any Asian movement is wrong. He went on to say that he has had problems with both Swiss and Asian new movements in the past. I asked him about longevity and he said that comparable quality movements from both countries are the same, just that the price of Asian movements are a great deal lower for obvious reasons.

I think the thing for me is that I hate being ripped off and I find that that is the case when you talk about Swiss movements, Oh by the way, about costs being higher, I read an article a year or so ago about how much some of the Swiss makers pay there piece workers( the work they farm out to mainly houswives who do the work from their homes) the article came to the conclusion that they were being payed less per item than their chinese equivellents! Reliability is not exclusive to the Swiss, I would love for an Asian memember to chim in and let us know how reliable some of the older movements are. I know that Seikos seem to be as reliable as anything Swiss made.
Don't get me wrong, I love Swiss watches, I own a couple of vintage Omega's and untill recently a couple of Rolex's I just find that I do not like to pay for expensive advertising and for the lifestyles the playboy families who own most of the watch companies enjoy, or all the freebies they give out to their affluent friends that the rest of us have to pay for, that is why they cost so much, it has nothing to do with being of extra quality!
Just my 2 cents worth, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect the right of the Pro Swiss camp their opinions!


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## M4tt

> How should a swiss watch sold for the same price like asian
> watch?


I'm not sure I ever said it should be. Can you point out where I did?



> I told that the swiss is better quality


This is an obvious claim to make but where is the evidence to support this claim? I own both Chinese and Swiss versions of this movement and can discern no difference in performance which is surely what matters.


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## tony1951

What a great thread!!

I REALLY enjoyed reading this. It is full of fascinating information and opinions.

Very informative.


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## cameronma

Professional！！！！


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## Outta Time

Just a quick resurrection to address a couple points, if I may. ETA, or ESA, began conglomerating with other Swiss ebauche makers way back in 1927. It's a long story, and I won't bore you with the political and economic details, but Unitas was on board and delegated to making hand wind movts, as they had been doing, in 1934. They joined AM, Aurore, Arogno, Derby, FHF, Peseux, Fleurier, and Tavannes in this respect, all making hand wind ebauches. 
What separates the Swiss U 6497 or the ETA 6497 from it's Chinese versions is mainly materials. I don't know what the metals are that are used in the Chinese versions, but they wear faster. This would be critical not only in instances of metal on metal, like the barrel arbor against the plate, but also the hairspring itself. I also suspect the jewels may not be as highly quality controlled. I have serviced many of both, and I can say that the Swiss ones just last longer, assuming proper care and servicing guidelines are followed. The Swiss ones cost more, and various manufacturers will make additional modifications to them, as Panerai did, before they did their own in house movts. 
And yes, you're paying for the name, obviously. 
I wear a Seagull ST 3600 in my regular rotation, with a beat of 21,600. It keeps killer time, well within COSC, and I'll be watching to see how long it is before any noticeable variation or wear occurs. Springs weaken, parts wear, and this is true on any watch. As I tell my customers who are down on Chinese products, not all of them are created equal. Chinese watchmakers and manufacturers are capable of making excellent quality movts, a tourbillon model was passed off as a high end Swiss, after all, by an unscrupulous Swiss manufacturer. I believe it was from Lao-Ning?, I may be mistaken, I forget the details of the report. It made the headlines a few years ago.


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