# Call to Action!



## thediscoking (Apr 19, 2009)

Dear Members,
In resolving a problem with my Fortis, Dennis and I had a bit of a side chat going about 24h watches in general. He commented that I was "preaching to the choir" when I mentioned their lack of popularity due to excessive cost and scarcity. This got me into thinking. Mightn't there be something we could do to help promote and convince some makers to get back on? I mean, the movements are available and commonly used on many GMT watches. Fortis is a great example. My 24h Flieger uses the same case, bracelet,hands, et cet. as their other Flieger models. If the only tooling that really needs to be done is to swap in the ETA 2893-2 movement and fabricate a few dials, where is the problem? 
It took me ages to find my Fortis. Why? Because everyone I found was either sold immediately (I missed out on one from Neil that was claimed after being posted for less than an hour) or well into the +600 USD range. 
I'm happy to have mine but it is becomes hard for me to recommend 24h watches to my mates, who are not all that into watches. Many of them like the idea of 24h time but can't see searching out a quality watch for a reasonable price. An Invicta automatic Pro Diver watche can be had NEW for under 70 USD (http://www.amazon.com/Invicta-Diver-Collection-Automatic-Watch/dp/B0006AAS4M). Why would most people who just want a sharp looking watch fork over 500 USD for the Fortis?

Anyway, just some thoughts. Maybe write up some letters and send them out to our favourite manufacturers?

Regards,
D.M.L.


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## Beau8 (May 24, 2008)

thediscoking said:


> Dear Members,
> In resolving a problem with my Fortis, Dennis and I had a bit of a side chat going about 24h watches in general. He commented that I was "preaching to the choir" when I mentioned their lack of popularity due to excessive cost and scarcity. This got me into thinking. Mightn't there be something we could do to help promote and convince some makers to get back on? I mean, the movements are available and commonly used on many GMT watches. Fortis is a great example. My 24h Flieger uses the same case, bracelet,hands, et cet. as their other Flieger models. If the only tooling that really needs to be done is to swap in the ETA 2893-2 movement and fabricate a few dials, where is the problem?
> It took me ages to find my Fortis. Why? Because everyone I found was either sold immediately (I missed out on one from Neil that was claimed after being posted for less than an hour) or well into the +600 USD range.
> I'm happy to have mine but it is becomes hard for me to recommend 24h watches to my mates, who are not all that into watches. Many of them like the idea of 24h time but can't see searching out a quality watch for a reasonable price. An Invicta automatic Pro Diver watche can be had NEW for under 70 USD (http://www.amazon.com/Invicta-Diver-Collection-Automatic-Watch/dp/B0006AAS4M). Why would most people who just want a sharp looking watch fork over 500 USD for the Fortis?
> ...


The same reason why people are willing to spend more for a watch that others can find elsewhere for less~quality. Cheers!


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## thediscoking (Apr 19, 2009)

Beau,
Well yes, people wanting things cheaper is a problem across the board for all areas. My point was that my mates aren't going to get interested in 24h watches when a decent quality one costs 500 USD and isn't easy to find. 

-D.M.L


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## cnmark (Jul 30, 2006)

Well, for starters, there are not many cheap movements around that could be used for an "affordable" 24H watch.

Cheap movements that come to mind are:

"Swiss made" or "Swiss parts", both versions available:
Ronda 515.24H
Ronda 505.24H

Japanese:
Miyota 6M17

There has been a watch mentioned recently that apparently uses the Ronda 515.24H (this thread), but even that watch is advertised in the USD 500.- range.


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## thediscoking (Apr 19, 2009)

Cnmark,
Jeez, you weren't kidding! I just did a quick google search and the ETA movements have really gone up in price!



cnmark said:


> Well, for starters, there are not many cheap movements around that could be used for an "affordable" 24H watch.
> 
> Cheap movements that come to mind are:
> 
> ...


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## cnmark (Jul 30, 2006)

thediscoking said:


> Cnmark,
> Jeez, you weren't kidding! I just did a quick google search and the ETA movements have really gone up in price!


Yes...

The movements mentioned above are all quartz "GMT" movements. For use in a "purist" 24H watch one would need to use the GMT hand only and plain not install the 12H-hand. This leaves one quirk in operation as on the first pull-out position of the crown the quickset of the GMT hand will still work, as long as the movement itself is not modified for "24H-use only". Well - that quirk could even be advertised as a feature for quick time zone changing...

As you may have noticed, the ETA 2893-2 is a GMT movement as well, but Fortis did modify it for "24H-only use" - the quickset of the 24H hand is suppressed.

If we come to Chinese mechanical movements, I would not consider the movement in the Alpha 24H worth a look - as pointed out here and here that movement has some serious quirks, re. setting it properly.

Seagull _did_ make a movement that would have been _very_ interesting. A variant from the ST6 family, the ST6322. It was designed as a "[email protected]" GMT movement - it did have a 24H hand and a 12H hand, but the 24H hours hand cold not be set independently and was always in synchronisation with the 12H hand.
That movement would have been the perfect choice for installing the 24H hand only. Unfortunately it is discontinued.


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## Andrei Raevsky (Mar 14, 2009)

Frankly, the Fortis are overpriced, rather ridiculously so. Considering the availability of high-quality Russian (real or "purist") 24h watches - not quartz, but true, mechanical ones - for under $300, I don't see how the Flieger can be rescued.


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## cnmark (Jul 30, 2006)

Andrei Raevsky said:


> Frankly, the Fortis are overpriced, rather ridiculously so. Considering the availability of high-quality Russian (real or "purist") 24h watches - not quartz, but true, mechanical ones - for under $300, I don't see how the Flieger can be rescued.


With the price of an ETA 2893-2 being way beyond USD 200.- I would not call the Fortis overpriced. Beat ETA - not Fortis.

As for "overpriced" - sorry, you did choose that word:
A Russian movement can be had for USD 10 to USD 30 wholesale, depending on the 100s or 1000s of movements one is willing to buy. So, when you call the Fortis overpriced by it's MSRP, but taking the relation "complete watch price" vs. "movement price", I would call the Russian watches "overpriced".


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## Andrei Raevsky (Mar 14, 2009)

cnmark said:


> Well, for starters, there are not many cheap movements around that could be used for an "affordable" 24H watch.
> (...)
> A Russian movement can be had for USD 10 to USD 30 wholesale, depending on the 100s or 1000s of movements one is willing to buy.


QED.



cnmark said:


> With the price of an ETA 2893-2 being way beyond USD 200.- I would not call the Fortis overpriced. Beat ETA - not Fortis.


Really? What about the PVDed Fortis Flieger for $1800? Especially when compated to the PVDed Aviator for $300 (with a better dial design)?

But yes, ETAs are also overpriced.

Bottom line - there are several Russian 24 hour movements which are of excellent quality and there are also plenty of very good Russian watches with these movements out there. I am glad of you can get them for 10 or 30 bucks, but for most people paying in the 300-500 dollar range for a high quality mechanical 24 hour watch sounds reasonable. The Flieger has one real advantage over all the Russkies: it's 20ATM. Is that worth paying an extra 400-1500 dollars?

I think that thediscoking is correct when he speaks of "lack of popularity due to excessive cost and scarcity".


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## thediscoking (Apr 19, 2009)

My apologies that I've been gone and haven't gotten to jump back in.

First, the PVDed Fortis is 1.8k because it was part of a limited release. Compare it to the Fortis IQ.

Second, in regards to the Russian movements I think that they are a step in the right direction. As has been noted before on this forum, it is the designs that are killing the Russian watches. People who want a sharp looking watch for work or a night out with the missus don't necessarily want a tank or CCCP or sickle on the face.

Yes, there are Russian made watches that are a bit smarter. However, they aren't made by the brands and in the styling that we generally look for. The other issue is that most of the Russian watches I've found are mechanical wind, which isn't to the taste of everyone.

I'm not a jeweler and do not know how these Russian movements compare to some of the more common Japanese movements currently used (Think Invicta to keep with my original example). But assuming that they are reasonably close in performance, which I believe them to be having owned Russian 12h mechanical watches, the issue becomes why can't those be used by the major watch producers?

My Fortis is great and probably not a bad deal for the money I paid for it second-hand (especially with superlume and a crystal upgrade). I just wish a brands like Invicta would make a common Rolex-y watch in 24h for under $100 so people could give it a go.

Third, Cnmark, I wasn't aware that Fortis had to monkey about with the movement. Guess it is that much harder to make your own 24h watch on the cheap...Maybe this explains why Fortis stopped the 24h line as it was too much of a bother to make the adjustments instead of just dropping in the ETA movements.

Fourth, that is a curious thing that good 24h movements can be made. I'd be curious to find out why they discontinued and/or why major brands didn't snatch them up.

Regards,
D.M.L.



Andrei Raevsky said:


> QED.
> 
> Really? What about the PVDed Fortis Flieger for $1800? Especially when compated to the PVDed Aviator for $300 (with a better dial design)?
> 
> ...


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## PulpMysteryFan (Oct 31, 2007)

[Heresy Alert]

I admire state-of-the-art motorcycles, but I own a moped. That's because even though I appreciate the beauty of fine engineering, my practical side overrules my aesthetic side.

I think of a watch as a tool. Therefore, for me a watch should be lightweight, unobtrusive and easy to read. And cheap. Which rules out just about everything other than a Timex with an Indiglo dial. ;-) I just don't buy into the "watches as jewelry and examples of fine workmanship" argument so successfully foisted upon us by high-end watch manufacturers. I find most "nice" watches heavy, obtrusive and something to worry about (I've got $1,000 strapped to my wrist -- I better be careful what I do).

I wish that someone -- Timex, Swatch maybe -- would create a watch that reproduces the perfect functionality of a Glycine Airman 8, yet uses a cheapo electronic movement. (Of course, Timex would probably screw it up because they too are committed to the theory that watches have to appeal to fashion.)


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## PulpMysteryFan (Oct 31, 2007)

(Does anyone row? I used to own two singles: a King and a Peinert. The King is simply beautiful -- wonderful materials, exquisite craftsmanship, yet very quick and light. The Pienert is only slightly heavier, 1/4 the price, simple and rugged (kevlar). Invariably, I always rowed the Peinert because I was too afraid of rowing the King and accidentally running into some heavy flotsam and putting a hole in it's $7,000 hull. It's the same with fine watches -- I'd rather wear something I don't need to worry about.)


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## Dennis Smith (Feb 15, 2006)

Sorry, posts below this level became shouting matches and didn't contribute to the discussion of 24 hour watches, so I deleted them.
Let's try to keep emotion out of our posts, even as we enjoy our passion for watches of all prices, from all nations.


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