# Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches



## chris01

This is a long item but I think it marks a very significant event in the world of HAQ. We have a brand-new TC movement - the ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive - installed in a brand-new watch from a long-established Swatch Group watch manufacturer. Unlike all the other announcements of the last year or so, that have only a very limited (albeit exciting) appeal, like the Hoptroff CSAC watch, or are still apparently vapourware, like AtomicTime and Morgenwerk, this one is real and is currently being shipped to retailers at a very reasonable price.

Certina's effort in announcing and publicising their new watch, after the initial press releases, has been feeble and confusing, with retailers and their distributors having very little information and even Certina's web site has almost no useful information. There are currently six models with cosmetic variations and they are shown here:
certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1
It appears that they all have the TC movement but only the more expensive LE version has a COSC certificate (and a fancy box).

My recently departed, and not greatly missed, Aerospace has left an HAQ-sized gap, just in time to receive my own Certina and I hope the photos give a good idea of the whole package. If you want wrist shots, or a photo of the movement, then you'll have to buy your own. 

























































*Chronograph Indications*








*Detailed specification (from Certina and my own watch)*


Model number: C024.447.11.081.00 
Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year 
Battery life: more than 2 years (silver oxide 394/SR936SW), EOL indication 
Functions: Centre hour & minute hands, small-second, date,
time-zone (hour hand setting is independent),
date adjustment using hour hand, NO perpetual calendar 
Chronograph: Centre 1-second hand with 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second graduations,
runs for first minute, subsequently displayed when chronograph is stopped
Centre 60-second hand
Small 30-minute and 12-hour dials 
Case: Brushed/polished 316L stainless steel
41mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, lug width 22 mm
Aluminium bezel with tachymeter scale 
Dial: Anthracite with polished hands and nickelled indices
Sub-dials black with textured finish
Superluminova on hour & minute hands and hour markers
See the Certina link for other variations 
Water resistance: to 10 bar (100m) 
Crystal: Sapphire crystal, domed, with inner anti-reflective coating 
Watch strap: Three-row 316L stainless steel (brushed/polished)
with twin push-button butterfly buckle
Removable links with split-pin fixings 
Dimensions: Case 41 mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, 22 mm lug width, 51 mm lug-to-lug
Weight of watch with full bracelet 150 g
Maximum wrist circumference of watch + bracelet 21.5 cm
Bracelet 22 mm wide, tapering to 19 mm,with removable links 7 mm (x2) and 10 mm (x5) 
Warranty: Two year international warranty, service through normal SG Group centres 
*
A brief initial review*

First impressions are that this is a very nicely designed and finished piece, quite 'normal' in appearance. The case has a good mix of brushed and polished sections, as does the bracelet, although I fear that the large polished centre links will soon show scuffs and scratches. The bracelet was quite easily adjusted to size with two sizes of link, and there are helpful arrow markings on the bracelet to avoid the disaster of attempting to insert or remove the split pins in the wrong direction. I would have liked to see micro-adjustment but this is probably impossible with a butterfly fastening.

Rather surprisingly for a 100m WR watch, the back is pressed in rather than screwed in. However, Certina make a big deal of their DS (Double Security) Concept, and there is a relief of a turtle on the back, so I have to assume that they know what they're doing! It does mean that I'm in no hurry to have a peek at the movement.

On the wrist it's quite comfortable and doesn't feel too big. It's on the upper size limit for my taste, and I prefer titanium for lightness, but it's OK. Absence of a rotating bezel is a major plus point for me.

Readability is good, helped by the slightly domed crystal, with internal AR, that avoids the problem with a flat crystal of the dial disappearing behind one large reflection. In the absence of an outer AR coating this is good enough. The dial has a very subtle sunburst effect for the main dark grey part, with black sub-dials that have a raised annular ring pattern.

Operation is perfectly straightforward, with all the functions working as expected. The independent hour hand is for me a mandatory feature for any HAQ . Perpetual calendar would have been nice but it seems unachievable with a chronograph. You have to turn the hour hand through 24 hours to change the date (works in both directions). Lume seems adequate but I haven't tried an 05:00 time check yet.

The chrono buttons work smoothly but I must make a comment about the 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second feature. This was greatly hyped in the initial press releases, as if it's a must-have unique feature. To me it's a complete nonsense. Trying to read an elapsed time that requires reference to 4 separate hands (12-hour and 30-minute sub-dials, plus 60-second and 1-second main hands) is a serious test of one's patience. Omitting the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] hand would give a perfectly serviceable 1-second stopwatch. If you need sub-second resolution then any cheap digital stopwatch is infinitely better.

The user manual is perfectly adequate, being written in good English (plus 16 other languages) and contains everything you need to know on 12 tiny pages. This includes simple instructions for resetting the chrono hands, which was necessary when my watch arrived.

So, my initial conclusion is that I am very pleased with this attractive watch at an attractive price. I cannot understand why Christopher Ward doesn't do something similar with sensibly-priced COSC quartz, instead of their bizarre special editions that are commemorative of nothing very significant.

I am now starting my test of accuracy and will report as soon as the SPY value starts to settle down. +/-10 SPY is not usually a problem for ETA TC movements.

I'll be happy to attempt to answer any questions.


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## webvan

Great stuff! I must say I had completely missed the original announcement. So not only do we have a new HAQ watch but also a new HAQ movement, the ETA 251.264, after the often used ETA 251.232 with its 1/10th second chrono feature. Let's hope the movement is actually tweakable unlike the one on the Aerospace, have you been able to track down a technical manual?

Too bad the new center 1/100th hand doesn't seem to have much practical use and I'm not surprised because my vintage Omega 1/100th and Longines 1/100th with the ESA 251.252 (Omega 1670, not sure about the Longines name) have the same problem, hehe...

I'm also not a big fan (hate them really) of pressed backs as it's impossible to remove them without leaving marks and this one might be even harder to remove with the DS claim...

Finally it seems you can only get seconds readings down to 5 seconds? Not a huge practical issue but a tad "annoying" for an HAQ, a bit like that CW where you couldn't read the minutes on part of the dial, well that was worse I suppose ;-)


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## chris01

webvan said:


> Great stuff! I must say I had completely missed the original announcement. So not only do we have a new HAQ watch but also a new HAQ movement, the ETA 251.264, after the often used ETA 251.232 with its 1/10th second chrono feature. Let's hope the movement is actually tweakable unlike the one on the Aerospace, have you been able to track down a technical manual?
> 
> Too bad the new center 1/100th hand doesn't seem to have much practical use and I'm not surprised because my vintage Omega 1/100th and Longines 1/100th with the ESA 251.252 (Omega 1670, not sure about the Longines name) have the same problem, hehe...
> 
> I'm also not a big fan (hate them really) of pressed backs as it's impossible to remove them without leaving marks and this one might be even harder to remove with the DS claim...
> 
> Finally it seems you can only get seconds readings down to 5 seconds? Not a huge practical issue but a tad "annoying" for an HAQ, a bit like that CW where you couldn't read the minutes on part of the dial, well that was worse I suppose ;-)


There actually 4 new movements, all based on ETA's new PowerDrive technology, There's the 251.264 in both TC (PreciDrive) and non-TC versions (Thermoline and Flatline I think) and a 3-hand movement, 251.274, also in two versions. So maybe we'll see further Swatch Group TC watches. Nothing technical yet except for a couple of ETA web pages.

I don't think I'll be taking a hammer and chisel to the back of this one for a while!

<5 seconds> Yes, that's seems quite common with small sub-dials. Not as bad as Certina's previous TC, the DS Master COSC diver's watch - the seconds dial had no markings at all!

=====
I got it wrong - the 251.274 models are also chronograph movements. A bit slimmer than the 251.264 but ETA haven't yet published detailed info on the differences.


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## Hans Moleman

> Vacuum sealed in a ceramic case, the integrated circuit (IC) and quartz are protected from any influence of moisture. The IC has a built-in oscillating system for measuring the quartz temperature. This measurement can correct the rate, by compensating for the frequency deviation as a function of the temperature. This results in very high precision, in line with the performance requirements demanded by the quartz chronometer qualification test (COSC).


Source

Was moisture a problem before?


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## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Source
> 
> Was moisture a problem before?


Well, my experience with my old Conquest VHP was that theoretical moisture in the electronics was the least of my worries. At its 20-year battery change, Longines Service probably damaged the (new?) gasket and obviously didn't pressure test. After a few days I had drops of water inside the crystal. This was purely from perspiration condensation, no actual water contact. They fixed it but 5 years later it was dead from corrosion. So putting a plastic bag over the service person's head would have been far more effective. o|


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> I cannot understand why Christopher Ward doesn't do something similar with sensibly-priced COSC quartz, instead of their bizarre special editions that are commemorative of nothing very significant.


To you they may be insignificant but to many who follow auto racing they commemorate significant events, tracks and/or cars and as the whole theme of these watches is auto racing I get it. Would it be good if they had other COSC models based on other themes, yes, but I hardly feel that it is fair to denigrate something just because it doesn't appeal to you. Personally I feel that the The Citizen and Grand Seiko TC watches are too small for my taste, but still respect them as an achievement and appreciate that others enjoy them.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> To you they may be insignificant but to many who follow auto racing they commemorate significant events, tracks and/or cars and as the whole theme of these watches is auto racing I get it. Would it be good if they had other COSC models based on other themes, yes, but I hardly feel that it is fair to denigrate something just because it doesn't appeal to you. Personally I feel that the The Citizen and Grand Seiko TC watches are too small for my taste, but still respect them as an achievement and appreciate that others enjoy them.


I'm not picking on CW just because they choose to celebrate motor sport. I have had a brief but amiable discussion with Mr Ward on the subject. I found it frustrating that, while CW offer an excellent range of attractive and sensibly-priced quartz and mechanical (including COSC) watches, they choose to put their only HAQ movements into a style of watch that has a very narrow appeal. <If> their business and marketing plan aims to increase their sales of HAQ then they could usefully also offer a more restrained and functional design.


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## dicioccio

Hello Chris, thanks for the wonderful announce !

I like the styling of this watch and the fact it has a very classic style and size. I agree with you that CW used the ETA TC only in a watch with a fancy styling. For example I would love to see the Trident C60 GMT with a TC movement but it seems nobody but me is interested in such a product. For now, let's thank Certina for these new models !


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## chris01

Just to say that if anybody is looking to buy one at a good price, I can recommend my supplier. No personal interest in this, other than as a satisfied customer. PM me for info.


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## shtora

*A little off-topic*

What I like most in this model, ecxept that it is a new HEQ, is that the movement is equipped with a time-zone function (as on all ETA Normflatline, Flatline and Thermoline quartz chronos). In my opinion this function is the best addition to a thermocompensated movement.


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## chris01

*Re: A little off-topic*



shtora said:


> What I like most in this model, ecxept that it is a new HEQ, is that the movement is equipped with a time-zone function (as on all ETA Normflatline, Flatline and Thermoline quartz chronos). In my opinion this function is the best addition to a thermocompensated movement.


It's an absolute necessity for me and is the main reason I don't own a Sinn UX.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: A little off-topic*

Not my style but I look forward to reviews by anyone buying one.


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> <If> their business and marketing plan aims to increase their sales of HAQ then they could usefully also offer a more restrained and functional design.


I agree on that point. Their access to TC movements may be limited though, limiting their possible model options.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> I agree on that point. Their access to TC movements may be limited though, limiting their possible model options.


I guess that for CW, Sinn, even Breitling, the HAQ future is entirely in ETA's hands. If the PreciDrive is the start of a golden future for HAQ then surely Swatch Group isn't going to use all these movements by selling loads of new watch models. Although, I'd love to see Longines relaunch a 21st century Ti VHP. That would replace a sadly-missed friend and I would hope to live long enough to wear just one watch for another 24 years. Until then, back to our normal programming ...


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## ronalddheld

Too late to go back to wearing only one watch or any sort.


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Too late to go back to wearing only one watch or any sort.


But don't you see that it solves the biggest problem that everybody here has in their daily life: "Which one do I wear today?"


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## Memphis1

Chris, you do not have the COSC Spec movement, only the C024.448.11.031.00 model is COSC... you do have the precidrive which means you can measure up to 1/100th of a second in chronograph mode...

chronograph DOES NOT mean chronometer


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## chris01

Memphis1 said:


> Chris, you do not have the COSC Spec movement, only the C024.448.11.031.00 model is COSC... you do have the precidrive which means you can measure up to 1/100th of a second in chronograph mode...
> 
> chronograph DOES NOT mean chronometer


I think that you are overestimating the significance of COSC. My understanding of this range of watches is that they all have the same PreciDrive TC movement, which will be adjusted by ETA in exactly the same way. The LE model contains a movement that has been tested by COSC and comes with the certificate. Since COSC isn't a watchmaker, the movement passes or fails and that's it. So the only difference is the certificate. I know that I have a chronograph and that only the LE is a chronometer within the Swiss meaning of the word. Certina claims +/-10 SPY for all the watches. As to actual chronometer levels of performance, I'll be able to see for myself quite soon.

Measuring 1/100th second has absolutely no connection with COSC performance. The underlying ETA PowerDrive technology may facilitate high-resolution chronograph operation but that's available on the non-TC movements as well. 1 to 10 millisecond chronograph resolution is available on several other quartz watches that don't have PreciDrive or PowerDrive.


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## chris01

Memphis1 said:


> Chris, you do not have the COSC Spec movement, only the C024.448.11.031.00 model is COSC... you do have the precidrive which means you can measure up to 1/100th of a second in chronograph mode...
> 
> chronograph DOES NOT mean chronometer


I think that you are overestimating the significance of COSC. My understanding of this range of watches is that they all have the same PreciDrive TC movement, which will be adjusted by ETA in exactly the same way. The LE model contains a movement that has been tested by COSC and comes with the certificate. Since COSC isn't a watchmaker, the movement passes or fails and that's it. So the only difference is the certificate. I know that I have a chronograph and that only the LE is a chronometer within the Swiss meaning of the word. Certina claims +/-10 SPY for all the watches. As to actual chronometer levels of performance, I'll be able to see for myself quite soon.

Measuring 1/100th second has absolutely no connection with COSC performance. The underlying ETA PowerDrive technology may facilitate high-resolution chronograph operation but that's available on the non-TC movements as well. 1 to 10 millisecond chronograph resolution is available on several other quartz watches that don't have PreciDrive or PowerDrive.


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> So the only difference is the certificate. I know that I have a chronograph and that only the LE is a chronometer within the Swiss meaning of the word.


At a small cost savings as the testing is skipped, which must have a cost that is passed down to the customer. At the Certina price point I certainly can live without the certificate.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> At a small cost savings as the testing is skipped, which must have a cost that is passed down to the customer. At the Certina price point I certainly can live without the certificate.


Don't forget the fancy box and the satisfaction of knowing that there are only 1887 other watches exactly like yours!

BTW, Certina have added a DS-2 commercial to their web site: Commercials | Certina


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## sheldoncooper

i have preordered at uhrzeit.de,but how to change battery when the times comes?
This is a sealed case,can an ordinary watchmaker in my local area change battery or must it be shipped to switserland?


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## chris01

sheldoncooper said:


> i have preordered at uhrzeit.de,but how to change battery when the times comes?
> This is a sealed case,can an ordinary watchmaker in my local area change battery or must it be shipped to switserland?


Like any WR watch the back needs care in removal and even more care when it's replaced. Ideally it will need a new gasket (possibly also the crown and pushers) and should be pressure tested. I wouldn't consider taking it to a local 'battery man'. If you look on the Certina.com web site you can search for your nearest Certina (Swatch Group) service centre. Unless you're in Switzerland it shouldn't need to travel that far! If its performance is outside the +/-10 SPY spec. you can get them to regulate it as well.


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## everose

sheldoncooper said:


> .......but how to change battery when the times comes?
> This is a sealed case,can an ordinary watchmaker in my local area change battery or must it be shipped to switserland


Looking at the pic used by ETA for this mvt, it seems the batt is outside of the main sealed unit. (same as with 9F) So i imagine that batt changes should be fairly conventional.

ETA Precidrive 251.264













Congrats Chris.
I think its a great looking piece and an all new TC mvt from ETA is quite a rare event. I am looking forward to seeing some timekeeping data for these new calibres........I have a feeling they are going to be superb.


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## chris01

everose said:


> Looking at the pic used by ETA for this mvt, it seems the batt is outside of the main sealed unit. (same as with 9F) So i imagine that batt changes should be fairly conventional.
> 
> ETA Precidrive 251.264
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats Chris.
> I think its a great looking piece and an all new TC mvt from ETA is quite a rare event. I am looking forward to seeing some timekeeping data for these new calibres........I have a feeling they are going to be superb.


I think you are correct. The potential problem for ham-fisted watch bodgers like me is that the back isn't a screw-in and prising it off is likely to do some damage. I've never managed to damage a screwed back since I got the right tool for the job, but the distant past contains nightmares about the use of long-nosed pliers.

I'm happy to attack my not-so-new watches but this one will be entrusted to SGS at least until it's a fair bit older and scruffier.

Thanks for the kind words - three days' timing is a bit short, but I'll be hoping that the numbers have levelled out somewhat after a week. I'm wearing it daily at present, obviously because it's my latest but also to get a reasonably consistent set of temperatures. I'm finding that the large chrono second hand stuck at 12 is a bit confusing when I just glance at the time. Another excuse to keep looking at it! It's a very handsome watch and IMHO every HAQ enthusiast should get one.


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## dicioccio

Thanks everose for the pic: it seems to be a very beautifully crafted movement !


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## Hans Moleman

dicioccio said:


> Thanks everose for the pic: it seems to be a very beautifully crafted movement !


Conveniently located correction terminals C+ and C-!
More important than everything else.


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## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Conveniently located correction terminals C+ and C-!
> More important than everything else.


All we need now is the technical manual and somebody crazy enough to open their brand-new watch.

Who are you looking at?


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## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> All we need now is the technical manual and somebody crazy enough to open their brand-new watch.
> 
> Who are you looking at?


We'll talk again when you know your watch's rate!

I can just make out the correction terminal's markings on the movement's image.


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## ronalddheld

We need a higher resolution image to see the terminals clearly?


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## chris01

Speaking of back removal  I see that instead of the usual single narrow groove at the edge of the back, for inserting a knife, there are two quite long wide grooves at 6 and 12 o'clock. This looks like provision for a special tool to lock securely into place before pulling the back off, and probably means that some considerable force would be required. So, in spite of the subtle but increasing pressure that I am feeling from certain parties, I will refrain!


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## dicioccio

Hans Moleman said:


> Conveniently located correction terminals C+ and C-!
> More important than everything else.


Do you mean the rate is manually adjustable ?


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## chris01

dicioccio said:


> Do you mean the rate is manually adjustable ?


The history of ETA TCs would suggest that this is so. Apart from an early movement used by Longines, and at least one ETA-derived movement used by Breitling (B79 Aerospace), I think that all ETA TCs have had the C+/C- feature that only requires a knowledge of the procedure to calibrate in steps of +/- 4 or 8 SPY.


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## Hans Moleman

The movement's image from ETA, and magnified a bit.
You can see the C markings to the left of the battery.
Without anything else to go by, it looks user adjustable.

I would say quite an essential attribute.


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## ronalddheld

Definitely need a maintenance manual to help out with the adjustment procedure.


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## chris01

Just a quick update. After 7 days with daily wear (but not in bed!) it's running at about -3 SPY. Not worth showing a graph yet.


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## webvan

Not too shabby but I suspect you're just trying to come up with an excuse not to maul the watch by popping out the back with a chisel and hammer ;-) Are you using the video method?


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## chris01

webvan said:


> Not too shabby but I suspect you're just trying to come up with an excuse not to maul the watch by popping out the back with a chisel and hammer ;-) Are you using the video method?


I plead guilty to that  However, if somebody will post a video of them performing this operation on their own new DS-2, plus lend me whatever special tool is required (I already have a chisel, thank you), I will be happy to have a go.

When I got a camera with a high-speed video function, I tried video in parallel with the stopwatch on my two VHPs. I found little difference between the results, but setting up the watches and monitor and messing about with the camera and video recordings every day became very tedious. So I have stayed with the good old stopwatch. The measurement takes longer but there's no setup or post-processing.


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## TimeSeeker

one quick question. Does pulling out the crown on these watches save the battery? I have heard all kinds of interpretations, from it makes the battery die faster, it makes the battery leak to it's ok and will save the battery life.
Of course, being that the watch has a HAQ movement, the question might sound pointless, but let's say I know I wont be wearing the watch for 6 months, and I don't want to open this difficult caseback nor send it to service.


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## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> one quick question. Does pulling out the crown on these watches save the battery? I have heard all kinds of interpretations, from it makes the battery die faster, it makes the battery leak to it's ok and will save the battery life.
> Of course, being that the watch has a HAQ movement, the question might sound pointless, but let's say I know I wont be wearing the watch for 6 months, and I don't want to open this difficult caseback nor send it to service.


This is a subject that has been beaten to death many times. I'll quote from Certina's user manual for this watch:

_If you plan not to wear your chronograph for several weeks or months, we would advise you to store it with the crown pulled out to position III _[that's fully out]_. This cuts the electrical supply to the motor, thereby extending battery life considerably. _

Certina have not yet added the manual to their web site for downloading. I would have liked to have made a scan available here, but I'm not about to put copyright material on a public forum. If anybody wants more information, please PM me and include a real email address.


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## chris01

chris01 said:


> I plead guilty to that  However, if somebody will post a video of them performing this operation on their own new DS-2, plus lend me whatever special tool is required (I already have a chisel, thank you), I will be happy to have a go.
> 
> When I got a camera with a high-speed video function, I tried video in parallel with the stopwatch on my two VHPs. I found little difference between the results, but setting up the watches and monitor and messing about with the camera and video recordings every day became very tedious. So I have stayed with the good old stopwatch. The measurement takes longer but there's no setup or post-processing.


Apologies for replying to my own post, but this may be of interest to someone.

I have a Windows 7 PC with a modified Sure GPS receiver connected via a serial port, giving me a pretty good stratum 1 NTP server. I have been using the standard Windows Gadget analogue clock on the same PC as my visual time reference. Recently I have been having increasing problems with the clock running a bit erratically - stopping for a second or two then jumping on the correct time - and I was looking for a more stable time display.

You may remember the failed crowd-sourced AtomTime project. The one thing they did produce was the interface program/app (for Windows, Android, and iPhone), intended to synchronise their watch by flashing the screen display. This includes a decent analogue clock and I have found that it runs more smoothly than the Gadget. If you need it it's here: The App : Xonix Electronics Co


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## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> This is a subject that has been beaten to death many times. I'll quote from Certina's user manual for this watch:
> 
> _If you plan not to wear your chronograph for several weeks or months, we would advise you to store it with the crown pulled out to position III _[that's fully out]_. This cuts the electrical supply to the motor, thereby extending battery life considerably. _
> 
> Certina have not yet added the manual to their web site for downloading. I would have liked to have made a scan available here, but I'm not about to put copyright material on a public forum. If anybody wants more information, please PM me and include a real email address.


Thank you!
I wonder If this would work on my Maurice Lacroix Miros COSC


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## ronalddheld

What does the manual say about pulling out the crown?


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## Sabresoft

Just checked my Miros manual and it doesn't say anything about storing, but in position III (i.e. all the way out) the mechanism stops, so I imagine that would have the desired effect.


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## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> I have been using the standard Windows Gadget analogue clock on the same PC as my visual time reference. Recently I have been having increasing problems with the clock running a bit erratically - stopping for a second or two then jumping on the correct time - and I was looking for a more stable time display.


The only real-time item you have access to is your PPS wire.
The rest is computer derived: 'I'll do it as soon as it suits me', time.

Far from convenient off course, but do you have an PPS LED on your GPS?
That light is spot on. Always. Guaranteed.

I am using Linux with Buici clock. I've increased its polling frequency. But still, no guarantees there!
A computer is no real time device.


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## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> The only real-time item you have access to is your PPS wire.
> The rest is computer derived. 'I do it as soon as it suits me', time.
> 
> Far from convenient off course, but do you have an PPS LED on your GPS?
> That light is spot on. Always. Guaranteed.
> 
> I am using Linux with Buici clock. I've increased its polling frequency. But still, no guarantees there!
> A computer is no real time device.


Yes the GPS has a big, bright blue LED, the PC uses the PPS, and the Meinberg NTP monitor shows pretty good performance - (milliseconds) 0.000 delay, +/- 0.05 offset, .02-.10 jitter.

The only problem that I see is converting the internal accuracy to a consistent display. The Gadget seems to have an occasional problem, which I have read may be connected to recent versions of Internet Explorer. The AtomTime clock (and probably numerous others) does not appear to suffer. Interesting to superimpose the Gadget directly on top of the AT and you can see the two second hands usually perfectly in step, with the Gadget sometimes lagging a bit.

There seems to be a processing delay that makes any displayed clock permanently about 0.1s slow, but that is not an issue when you're measuring timekeeping.

I have also played with the EarthSunX program, that was discussed in the sticky as a useful tool for the Video method, for which it's very good to have the milliseconds display. This otherwise excellent program is unfortunately blessed with about the most infuriating user interface that I have ever seen in a Windows program, and I just can't bear to use it.


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## ronalddheld

I think that is Catalin's pc program. If he returns to this forum you can provide him with feedback.


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> I think that is Catalin's pc program. If he returns to this forum you can provide him with feedback.


Ah, I didn't realise it was from such an outstanding contributor. I will look on it more kindly.


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## Hans Moleman

Another problem with the video method was that it wasn't always very clear what time was being displayed on the monitor.

When I was lucky enough to find a frame where the second hand showed in transit, the monitor pixels hadn't settled to a readable number yet.


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## webvan

Yes that could be a problem, but flipping a few frames forward normally gives you a readable frame. EarthsunX might have a complex interface but for our purposes it's just a matter of dragging the mouse to the red bar on the side with "shift" depressed and the screen with the ms pops up, can't be easier really ;-) In combination with n.cmd it's quite perfect honestly ;-)

The AtomTime website seems to be down? Did their iPhone app make it? EmeraldTime works reasonably well with the stopwatch method.

Talking about timing it seems I've finally tracked down an old quartz timer accurate to the ms ;-)


----------



## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> Yes that could be a problem, but flipping a few frames forward normally gives you a readable frame. EarthsunX might have a complex interface but for our purposes it's just a matter of dragging the mouse to the red bar on the side with "shift" depressed and the screen with the ms pops up, can't be easier really ;-) In combination with n.cmd it's quite perfect honestly ;-)
> 
> The AtomTime website seems to be down? Did their iPhone app make it? EmeraldTime works reasonably well with the stopwatch method.
> 
> Talking about timing it seems I've finally tracked down an old quartz timer accurate to the ms ;-)


Well done! That timer will save you a few hours. 
Very little exists for us quartz extremists.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Another problem with the video method was that it wasn't always very clear what time was being displayed on the monitor.
> 
> When I was lucky enough to find a frame where the second hand showed in transit, the monitor pixels hadn't settled to a readable number yet.


Filming at 100 fps showed some extraordinary behaviour when stepping through frames. The second hand started moving anticlockwise before moving forward; after a few frames it sort of stopped, then there was a bounce. It was quite difficult to pick a consistent moment. I was timing a Conquest and a Flagship (with the same VHP PC movement) simultaneously, and their behaviour was not very similar at all.


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> The AtomTime website seems to be down? Did their iPhone app make it? EmeraldTime works reasonably well with the stopwatch method.


It seems like the websites are gradually fading away but this is still working: AtomTime

The Windows version is here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9GOrnGxIg2ESjE2dlA2ZDVyeEE/edit?pli=1 select File/Download

The Android app is available through Google Play. Search for "AtomTime" or "Time Calibrator". This gives a nice full-screen analogue/digital clock.

I don't know about iPhone but you can probably search for the same things.

A shame about this watch: it looked like a great idea.


----------



## ronalddheld

Too little.


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> Filming at 100 fps showed some extraordinary behaviour when stepping through frames. The second hand started moving anticlockwise before moving forward; after a few frames it sort of stopped, then there was a bounce. It was quite difficult to pick a consistent moment. I was timing a Conquest and a Flagship (with the same VHP PC movement) simultaneously, and their behaviour was not very similar at all.


oh-oh.


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> I don't know about iPhone but you can probably search for the same things.


for the Iphone, check this out

https://itunes.apple.com/se/app/emerald-time/id290384375?mt=8


----------



## TimeSeeker

well, I ordered the DS-2 Chrono Precidrive and am waiting for it to arrive. Very exciting!
Thanks Chris for the review!


----------



## webvan

yeah I mentioned Emerald Time just above and it's been discussed a few times before, great app. NTPdate can also force the synch of the iPhone's internal clock (JB iPhone only).


Thanks for the AtomTime links, just installed the PC version, sleek app, too bad about that watch...

Been playing with my Greiner Quartz Timer, hehe, nice piece of kit, will have to start a topic about it. Naturally it's a bit of a challenge for it to handle the inhibition of modern quartz movements (my Omega 1680 comes out at +3 s/d for instance), but there is a long integration time option so I may be able to figure something out.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Filming at 100 fps showed some extraordinary behaviour when stepping through frames. The second hand started moving anticlockwise before moving forward; after a few frames it sort of stopped, then there was a bounce. It was quite difficult to pick a consistent moment. I was timing a Conquest and a Flagship (with the same VHP PC movement) simultaneously, and their behaviour was not very similar at all.


Interesting!

And that behavior happened every second?

When I build my timer, and had to look closely at the stepper pulses, I noticed that sometimes two pulses were administered instead of the usual one.

It has been discussed before: It happens under an energy savings scheme where the motor is slowly deprived of energy, up to a point where it fails to move at all. When that happens, another more powerful second pulse gets it going again.

If your watch is continuously doing a little dance because of two pulses, I can't tell.
It would use a lot more battery power, or the battery is on its last legs.


----------



## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> Been playing with my Greiner Quartz Timer, hehe, nice piece of kit, will have to start a topic about it. Naturally it's a bit of a challenge for it to handle the inhibition of modern quartz movements (my Omega 1680 comes out at +3 s/d for instance), but there is a long integration time option so I may be able to figure something out.


Worth a try!

When is the rate sampled? 
- Hopefully one rate measurement straight after the other. No idle periods in between.

How log is the integration period?
- Hopefully it is a multiple of the inhibition period.

I only saw the model with a writer build in. Looks like they made them modular at the time.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Interesting!
> 
> And that behavior happened every second?
> 
> When I build my timer, and had to look closely at the stepper pulses, I noticed that sometimes two pulses were administered instead of the usual one.
> 
> It has been discussed before: It happens under an energy savings scheme where the motor is slowly deprived of energy, up to a point where it fails to move at all. When that happens, another more powerful second pulse gets it going again.
> 
> If your watch is continuously doing a little dance because of two pulses, I can't tell.
> It would use a lot more battery power, or the battery is on its last legs.


The behaviour was similar, but not identical, in both Longines watches. Both have fairly recent batteries, the Flagship movement is 10 or more years old, while the Conquest had a new movement 2 years ago. The hands are very different so the weight and balance may have some effect.

I don't think I was seeing a double pulse, just a slight backward movement before the forward stroke started. Then there was a noticeable bounce at the end of the stroke. Probably not as obvious as the famous Sinn UX wobble! These oddities, which happen every second, are not visible to the unaided eye, only as still frames from the video. I should add that both watches are keeping good time kept at room temperature: the Conquest was +1.5 SPY in the Summer with a gradual decline to -4.0 as the weather has cooled, and the Flagship +3.5 falling to -1.5. There have been no step-changes caused by missed seconds. I really must try to wear them a bit more but <too many watches, not enough wrists>.


----------



## chris01

After 15 days it's lost about 0.16s, and it's varying between -3 and -4 spy. It looks to be settling down (i.e. the daily variation is smoothed over 15 days) so in 1 or 2 weeks there should be a graph showing a decent indication of the annual rate *for the current ambient temperatures*.


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> After 15 days it's lost about 0.16s, and it's varying between -3 and -4 spy. It looks to be settling down (i.e. the daily variation is smoothed over 15 days) so in 1 or 2 weeks there should be a graph showing a decent indication of the annual rate *for the current ambient temperatures*.


I find it takes a month for my watches' SPY estimates to settle down and lose their erratic saw tooth charting. Primarily due to the high impact of reading accuracy on short term data extrapolated to 365 days.

As I have noted elsewhere in this forum a net (current reading minus original reading) error of say 0.05 seconds translates to a 2.6 SPY estimate error if taken over a duration of one week, 0.6 seconds if taken over a duration of one month, and 0.05 seconds if taken over a duration of one year. So early readings will always yield quite erratic SPY estimates.

My Certina is due to be delivered on Friday. It took less than a week to travel from Spain to Canada (via the US), and another four days to travel the last 300 KM! Good old UPS!


----------



## Sabresoft

Just picked up my DS2 from the UPS depot. Sitting in my car waiting for a car wash, so here is a quick pic and first observations.









First impressions:
- neat box only slightly spoiled by a tear in the (paper) covering on the back. Like the neat compartment for the manual.

- The green is brighter than the web pictures led me to believe. But does look pretty neat. Quite a contrast from the dark red hands on the Skyhawk Red Arrows that I am wearing today.

- Time was off by 9 hours (we are UTC -7) so must have been set to factory time in Switzerland, not local Spanish time(?).

- It was also off by about 9 seconds, but there's no guarantee that it was set exactly.

- I like the way the chronograph works compared to the Miros & CW C70, with the large hand doing 1/100 ths, and the minutes on the small dial (versus minutes on the large dial and 1/10 ths on the small dial).

- Just set it against the Skyhawk and will start a test this weekend as I do an update on the other 3 (I'll start a test on the Sinn again too at the same time).

Going into the wash now so gotta go.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> - The green is brighter than the web pictures led me to believe. But does look pretty neat. Quite a contrast from the dark red hands on the Skyhawk Red Arrows that I am wearing today.


That looks seriously bright! I have seen a yellow one in the metal and that was just 'yellow'. Yours looks fluorescent. Do you have UV lighting in your car? Enjoy!


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> That looks seriously bright! I have seen a yellow one in the metal and that was just 'yellow'. Yours looks fluorescent. Do you have UV lighting in your car? Enjoy!


No UV light (other than the natural solar kind), but do have a glass sunroof. It is seriously bright, I almost expected it to glow in the dark! Quite a contrast from my Skyhawk Red Arrows whose dark red hands disappear in all but the best light.

Starting my test in a few minutes.


----------



## TimeSeeker

can't wait for the test, and also I can't wait until mine arrives!


----------



## frnek

Congratulations to the lucky ones who have seen a very this watch!!

I also buy mine, but I have doubts between the model anthracite grey or green hands! At first glance in your photos anthracite seems more elegant and like omega speedmaster. Green Hands seems more sports although the green colour is amazing! I like too the two!

Can't wait for the test, wishing to see more photos. Thanks you very much!!


----------



## rcs914

chris01 said:


> It seems like the websites are gradually fading away but this is still working: AtomTime
> 
> The Windows version is here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9GOrnGxIg2ESjE2dlA2ZDVyeEE/edit?pli=1 select File/Download
> 
> The Android app is available through Google Play. Search for "AtomTime" or "Time Calibrator". This gives a nice full-screen analogue/digital clock.
> 
> I don't know about iPhone but you can probably search for the same things.
> 
> A shame about this watch: it looked like a great idea.


So it looks like they had produced some, but basically got no funding through indigogo, which is unfortunate. I can't find any updates from them since April. They are ridiculously inexpensive - at least based on the prices shown on their website for the "out of stock" watches. For $50 I would have gotten one. I would have to state though that they really needed a better designer - the watches look really cheap, and that's unfortunate. The script for "Atom Time" is just bad, and the overall look of the ani-digi is just not very good. The Day/night ones, as well as the pure analog one that likely was never made looked fine, with the exception of the font.

I wonder if there are some of these available on ebay from time to time?

Chris


----------



## chris01

Here is the 3-week update, showing signs of settling.









I'd suggest to others who have bought this watch that it would be quite helpful to keep our test results and other HAQ stuff together in this thread with, I hope, some better photos than mine. If you want to agonise about dress codes and lug length vs wrist size then you might care to take it elsewhere.


----------



## chris01

rcs914 said:


> They are ridiculously inexpensive - at least based on the prices shown on their website for the "out of stock" watches. For $50 I would have gotten one


Even cheaper than that. I sent them an enquiry in August and got a very general reply that included the following:
_Your Discount Coupon - As a thank you for joining our community, we've included a 10% discount coupon. You may use this coupon once to get 10% off any order, large or small. It is good through *December of 2007*.

_I'd have definitely bought one for $45, just because I don't own a digital watch. I don't believe that these ever existed, with the possible exception of the alleged review sample.


----------



## rcs914

chris01 said:


> Even cheaper than that. I sent them an enquiry in August and got a very general reply that included the following:
> _Your Discount Coupon - As a thank you for joining our community, we've included a 10% discount coupon. You may use this coupon once to get 10% off any order, large or small. It is good through *December of 2007*.
> 
> _I'd have definitely bought one for $45, just because I don't own a digital watch. I don't believe that these ever existed, with the possible exception of the alleged review sample.


So not only was the watch ultra precise, but according to them it could also travel through time?!?! This is incredible! ;-)


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> Even cheaper than that. I sent them an enquiry in August and got a very general reply that included the following:
> _Your Discount Coupon - As a thank you for joining our community, we've included a 10% discount coupon. You may use this coupon once to get 10% off any order, large or small. It is good through *December of 2007*.
> 
> _I'd have definitely bought one for $45, just because I don't own a digital watch. I don't believe that these ever existed, with the possible exception of the alleged review sample.


I ordered one but do not expect to see it delivered to me.


----------



## frnek

Please more pics and in hand if is possible!! This watch is a Beauty........


----------



## TimeSeeker

Ceramic casing? What is that exactly?
Mine is on the way here by UPS, I can't wait to hold her!


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## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> [video=youtube;3ADjssgR7uI]Ceramic casing? What is that exactly?


That's the encapsulation of the electronics and crystal. See here: ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> That's the encapsulation of the electronics and crystal. See here: ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies


Thanks!


----------



## dirkpitt73

Cool video, it's rare we HAQ fans get to see anything so professionally produced in English. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## TimeSeeker

Maybe there is hope for HAQ after all....


----------



## ronalddheld

The video was composed well for an English speaking audience. Not inclined to buy chronos so I will have to rely on reviews posted here.


----------



## chris01

Week 4 - it's getting clearer.


----------



## ronalddheld

Will you be keeping up the data collection enough to see any aging effects?


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> Week 4 - it's getting clearer.
> 
> View attachment 1306648


so at this rate it's showing -3.5 spy?


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Will you be keeping up the data collection enough to see any aging effects?


Yes, I'd hope to be able to provide longer-term data. At present I'm wearing it daily, except for hazardous operations like gardening and car washing, for which the Sinn 856 is my friend. I won't want to continue this indefinitely, say beyond about 2 months, so future timing will be subject to less regular temperature regimes.


----------



## svorkoetter

chris01 said:


> That looks seriously bright! I have seen a yellow one in the metal and that was just 'yellow'. Yours looks fluorescent. Do you have UV lighting in your car? Enjoy!


I'm new posting to the HAQ forum (I generally hang out in Affordables and Russian Watches but do lurk here). I was in Germany last week, and got to see the new DS2 Precidrives in a store (in a display case). They had all three of the colours (red, yellow, and green), and the green is by far the most intense. It really jumps out compared to the other two. The red is the most subdued, with the yellow falling somewhere in the middle. The images on Certina's site are misleading, as they make the green look quite subdued and the yellow the most intense.

The problem I had with the red one is that I couldn't read the numbers on the 0-100 scale. Not enough contrast. If I wanted this watch, I'd want the monochrome one, but with the red hands:


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> so at this rate it's showing -3.5 spy?


There looks to be a continuing small downward trend but I'd expect it to remain better than -4 spy unless/until the weather gets colder, or I stop wearing it every day. The drop (if real) at days 12-13 coincided with a sudden cold spell.


----------



## Sabresoft

svorkoetter said:


> I'm new posting to the HAQ forum (I generally hang out in Affordables and Russian Watches but do lurk here).


Welcome



svorkoetter said:


> The images on Certina's site are misleading, as they make the green look quite subdued and the yellow the most intense.


Yes I agree, I was quite surprised how intense my green model was when I received it. Still I like it, but slightly less intense would have been better.



svorkoetter said:


> The problem I had with the red one is that I couldn't read the numbers on the 0-100 scale. Not enough contrast. If I wanted this watch, I'd want the monochrome one, but with the red hands:


This is the same problem that I have with my Citizen Red Arrows Skyhawk, a neat looking watch, but the red hands disappear in all but the brightest light.









Whereas my other Skyhawk with orange hands is quite easily readable even in poor light.


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> Week 4 - it's getting clearer.
> 
> View attachment 1306648


I like the look of your numbers. While plus offsets are better for hacking the watch back to accuracy (pull out stem and wait for real time to match, then push stem back in), I think that minus is better for TC, because in my experience crystal aging shifts the curves upward (at least in my sample of 4).


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> I like the look of your numbers. While plus offsets are better for hacking the watch back to accuracy (pull out stem and wait for real time to match, then push stem back in), I think that minus is better for TC, because in my experience crystal aging shifts the curves upward (at least in my sample of 4).


Yes, I fully agree. Of course, if it stays close to -4, even when the warmer weather returns, then one tweak should bring it close to zero! Unfortunately, while I'd happily do this with one of my Longines, I'd think twice (or three times) about hacking this one.


----------



## chris01

svorkoetter said:


> I'm new posting to the HAQ forum (I generally hang out in Affordables and Russian Watches but do lurk here). I was in Germany last week, and got to see the new DS2 Precidrives in a store (in a display case). They had all three of the colours (red, yellow, and green), and the green is by far the most intense. It really jumps out compared to the other two. The red is the most subdued, with the yellow falling somewhere in the middle. The images on Certina's site are misleading, as they make the green look quite subdued and the yellow the most intense.
> 
> The problem I had with the red one is that I couldn't read the numbers on the 0-100 scale. Not enough contrast. If I wanted this watch, I'd want the monochrome one, but with the red hands:


Mine is the 081 'monochrome' model, and to me the white chrono hands are OK but don't really enhance the appearance. However, the dial is dark grey with a subtle sunburst and black sub-dials, and I think the effect is a bit more interesting than the plain black of the 051 green/yellow/red models. I don't care for the silver sub-dials on black or the reverse-colour special models, as they seem too busy.


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> Yes, I fully agree. Of course, if it stays close to -4, even when the warmer weather returns, then one tweak should bring it close to zero! Unfortunately, while I'd happily do this with one of my Longines, I'd think twice (or three times) about hacking this one.


Crystal aging (or my assumption thereof) has brought my Airwolf to almost be bang on in the third year of testing.


----------



## svorkoetter

Sabresoft said:


> This is the same problem that I have with my Citizen Red Arrows Skyhawk, a neat looking watch, but the red hands disappear in all but the brightest light.
> 
> Whereas my other Skyhawk with orange hands is quite easily readable even in poor light.


One thing I notice about your Red Arrows is that there are a lot of red markings on the dial that are the same intensity as the hands, so the hands tend to disappear among them. The other Skyhawk's orange hands are much brighter than the orange marks on the dial, giving better contrast. I've always found the Skyhawk dials kind of cluttered looking though, which doesn't help. The Certina has a much closer to sterile dial.


----------



## TimeSeeker

Well, she's here!

playing around with the date and time settings while I took this pic.


----------



## Sabresoft

svorkoetter said:


> One thing I notice about your Red Arrows is that there are a lot of red markings on the dial that are the same intensity as the hands, so the hands tend to disappear among them. The other Skyhawk's orange hands are much brighter than the orange marks on the dial, giving better contrast. I've always found the Skyhawk dials kind of cluttered looking though, which doesn't help. The Certina has a much closer to sterile dial.


I do tend to prefer more cluttered dials. But with most of my watches, the primary time feature still dominates the view, so in the case of the Skyhawk I can easily glance at the watch and see the time, despite everything else going on in the background.


----------



## DaveD

Great looking chrono chronometer! Wear it in good health!


----------



## TimeSeeker

DaveD said:


> Great looking chrono chronometer! Wear it in good health!


Thank you!!!


----------



## pbv

*Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph*

Got mine today....


----------



## chris01

We seem to be building a little community of DS-2s now. I hope we're going to see some good timing data from each one.

Here's the latest for mine. After 6 weeks of daily wear it seems to have settled to around -3.5. I think I will continue with this for about 2 months then I'll probably wear it on alternate days, as I have now some very lonely looking watches.









I'd like to wish everybody here a Merry Christmas and a Happy (and Highly Accurate) New Year.


----------



## chris01

7 weeks and it's still close to -3.5. We are having a very mild winter at present and I suspect things will change a bit if/when it gets cold. Also, after next week I'm going to start wearing it only on alternate days.


----------



## chris01

2 months. Now, a period of alternate days wearing and storing at room temperature.


----------



## TimeSeeker

anyone having a difficult time setting the time with the Precidrive?
My first problem is making sure that the small second hand is at the zero position, as it's well covered by the chrono hand. The other problem, which might be an alignment issue, is that on the some markers it seems to be spot on, and on others it seems to be a second slow.
Any advice?


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> anyone having a difficult time setting the time with the Precidrive?
> My first problem is making sure that the small second hand is at the zero position, as it's well covered by the chrono hand. The other problem, which might be an alignment issue, is that on the some markers it seems to be spot on, and on others it seems to be a second slow.
> Any advice?


I sympathise with you on the first point. My only other chrono, an Oceanus, has the same layout but a very slim second hand counterbalance. Reading the running seconds is no problem with that one. When hacking the seconds hand on the DS-2 I just try to get into the rhythm and count down 55 to 60 and pull the crown at the right moment. Usually works!

On alignment, I've never seen a problem. As I do daily timing checks against a stopwatch and my GPS reference, I would certainly have noticed a 1-second discrepancy in any of my individual readings. However, I do find that I really dislike a sub-dial seconds indication, as there is so often something in the way. Give me a centre seconds hand any time.


----------



## everose

TimeSeeker said:


> ........The other problem, which might be an alignment issue, is that on the some markers it seems to be spot on, and on others it seems to be a second slow.
> Any advice?


I would guess its much more likely due to slight sub dial printing inconsistencies/lack of printing symmetry rather than anything more serious. Misalignment of the markers does not make the movement less accurate....just trickier to read off. Try to get into the habit of reading off a marker which you are happy with.

Thanks to Chris for your testing/reporting efforts so far. Obviously the more people who can join in, the more significant it will be. Its still very early days but this new mvt looks like its going to be superb!


----------



## chris01

everose said:


> I would guess its much more likely due to slight sub dial printing inconsistencies/lack of printing symmetry rather than anything more serious. Misalignment of the markers does not make the movement less accurate....just trickier to read off. Try to get into the habit of reading off a marker which you are happy with.
> 
> Thanks to Chris for your testing/reporting efforts so far. Obviously the more people who can join in, the more significant it will be. Its still very early days but this new mvt looks like its going to be superb!


I had a careful look at my dial and found that most 5-second markers are exactly obscured by the hand. 2 or 3 just peek out at the side of the hand, and I guess this could be due either to printing or inconsistent motion of the hand. Neither would explain a 1-second error, though.


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> I had a careful look at my dial and found that most 5-second markers are exactly obscured by the hand. 2 or 3 just peek out at the side of the hand, and I guess this could be due either to printing or inconsistent motion of the hand. Neither would explain a 1-second error, though.


That's what I meant Chris. Bad wording from me. I can't tell (for example) when the hand is at 45 or 46, that's what I meant by 1 second.


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> That's what I meant Chris. Bad wording from me. I can't tell (for example) when the hand is at 45 or 46, that's what I meant by 1 second.


Distinguishing 42 and 43 is not easy at a glance (any longer and it's 43-44) but I never have any problem with the 5-second intervals vs +/-1. Unless of course another bloody hand is in the way! However, it's never as bad as the Certina DS Master COSC Quartz:


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> Distinguishing 42 and 43 is not easy at a glance (any longer and it's 43-44) but I never have any problem with the 5-second intervals vs +/-1.


Well, that's my problem. On certain 5 second intervals, it seems to be exact, on others, it seems to be 1 second off. It's probably a misaligned printing.


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> Well, that's my problem. On certain 5 second intervals, it seems to be exact, on others, it seems to be 1 second off. It's probably a misaligned printing.


Can you see it happening at the same place every time, or is a 'random' event? In either case it may be worth a conversation with your nearest Certina service, assuming they have even heard of the DS-2.


----------



## TimeSeeker

chris01 said:


> Can you see it happening at the same place every time, or is a 'random' event? In either case it may be worth a conversation with your nearest Certina service, assuming they have even heard of the DS-2.


yes, it happens at the same 5 second intervals


----------



## Sabresoft

TimeSeeker said:


> anyone having a difficult time setting the time with the Precidrive?
> My first problem is making sure that the small second hand is at the zero position, as it's well covered by the chrono hand.


Before trying to set the watch, start the chronograph and move the two centre hands out of alignment with the 12 o'clock position and then stop them (say at 10 seconds). That should clear the view to the zero position for the small seconds hand.


----------



## TimeSeeker

It looks like a pair of reading glasses seems to have solved the problem.
Not the watch but my eyes were at fault.
It's just hard to read these small second hands!


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> It looks like a pair of reading glasses seems to have solved the problem.
> Not the watch but my eyes were at fault.
> It's just hard to read these small second hands!


Excellent result (apart from your impaired eyesight, of course). Every new watch should come with a loupe to avoid unnecessary warranty claims.


----------



## zeta

Got mine recently:









Here's a movie (not mine) with this model:


----------



## chris01

Some early results from my changed wearing pattern. At day 61, I started wearing the watch only on alternate days, leaving it at room temperature otherwise. The graph now shows, as before, total variation from day 0 (blue bars). The red line shows SPY from day 0 to day 60 with daily wear. The purple line continues cumulative SPY from day 0. BUT the new green line shows SPY from day 61 and it appears to show a dramatic change in rate (if 10 milliseconds per day can be called dramatic). It's quite clear that the variation has levelled out a bit and, of course, the overall SPY is now showing a rising trend. Stay tuned, folks!


----------



## vizi

I My Certina! 













Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year


----------



## joliveira

Hello Everyone!

Where do you recommend to buy this watch?
I've been looking on online stores and the cheapest one I found was this one: http://www.bodying.co.uk/c024-447-11-081-00-certina-ds-2-quartz/watches/79926

I don't know if this is relevent or not but in the picture doesn't appear on screen the words "precidrive" and "ds-2".
What do you think?


----------



## chris01

joliveira said:


> Hello Everyone!
> 
> Where do you recommend to buy this watch?
> I've been looking on online stores and the cheapest one I found was this one: C024.447.11.081.00 : Certina Ds 2 Quartz Chronograph Gent #C024.447.11.081.00, Certina Ds 2
> 
> I don't know if this is relevent or not but in the picture doesn't appear on screen the words "precidrive" and "ds-2".
> What do you think?


I have replied to your PM with some info. I wouldn't worry about the dial as I think there were early photos that showed various wording. The current pictures on Certina's web site would appear to show what is currently being sold - certainly via my supplier.


----------



## joliveira

Thank you!
I really appreciated.
I'm thinking about buying this watch. It's a difference more than 200 euros on a retail store.


----------



## webvan

Well done on opening the case Vizi, did you use any special tools?


----------



## chris01

vizi said:


> I My Certina!
> View attachment 1352943
> 
> Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year


OK, now it's open, can you change the lighting so we can read all the words on the back? Then, try regulating it - sorry there's no manual available yet, but just make a guess ... 

Big problem, though, how long before somebody notices the PLASTIC spacer and tells us what a load of cr*p we spent our money on?


----------



## vizi

any special tools? Not that,only I used.


----------



## everose

Thanks so much for the mvt pic Vizi!
I hope you don't mind that i increased the contrast/size.

I cannot see any differences from the early render on the ETA site. (except the stamped lettering on the central backplate) Perhaps most importantly the C+/- adjustment facility still looks to be present. :-!










The ETA website pic .........


----------



## zeta

After having measured difference from time server with the video method for 5 days, I seem to be getting a consistent -0.1 sec / day!  (Same for 2 different time servers) That's -0.5 sec in 5 days, and extrapolating, that would be -36 SPY. Granted, I wear the watch 24/7 and its about -3 C outside, but I don't spend much time outdoors. Is it the temperature _changes _or the amount of time spent in cold/hot temp that matters the most? Of course, this is only data collected for 5 days.


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> ... Is it the temperature _changes _or the amount of time spent in cold/hot temp that matters the most? ...


The watch speeds up and slows down in the cold and heat.
The longer it stays in those temperatures, the more its offset increases.

A short time in the cold has little effect: The offset can't accumulate.

When you always wear a watch, when it is attached to a large warm body, it stays around 30 ℃.
Take your watch off and it is exposed to a much larger temperature range.


----------



## Sabresoft

Well I have 56 days of data now, so here goes for my DS2:









At 24 days it was projecting a SPY of -3.22 seconds and at 57 days, -3.6 SPY.

Looks like a good start. Especially for a non-COSC certified caliber. Obviously it likely would have passed had it been submitted.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> Well I have 56 days of data now, so here goes for my DS2:
> 
> At 24 days it was projecting a SPY of -3.22 seconds and at 57 days, -3.6 SPY.
> 
> Looks like a good start. Especially for a non-COSC certified caliber. Obviously it likely would have passed had it been submitted.


What was your wearing routine? Mine appears to be sensitive in this respect - about -3.5 with daily wear, and close to zero with alternate days' wear. After a full month in the latter mode, I think I'll try unworn for a few weeks.

I wonder if there is any real difference between the COSC and non-COSC versions. It seems that (assuming a 4 SPY step in calibration) both of our watches are as close to 'perfect' as they can reasonably be, and that the only extra feature is the actual test and the certificate. There would seem little point in ETA/Certina deliberately downgrading the non-COSC performance, as they claim the same +/- 10 SPY for all six models.


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> What was your wearing routine? Mine appears to be sensitive in this respect - about -3.5 with daily wear, and close to zero with alternate days' wear. After a full month in the latter mode, I think I'll try unworn for a few weeks.
> 
> I wonder if there is any real difference between the COSC and non-COSC versions. It seems that (assuming a 4 SPY step in calibration) both of our watches are as close to 'perfect' as they can reasonably be, and that the only extra feature is the actual test and the certificate. There would seem little point in ETA/Certina deliberately downgrading the non-COSC performance, as they claim the same +/- 10 SPY for all six models.


My wearing routine is actually quite sporadic as I have a large watch rotation, and so it usually only gets wrist time every two weeks.

As to the COSC/non-COSC, I suspect that there is no manufacturing differences, only that some candidates do the final exam (and hopefully pass) for a fee, and the others venture out into the world untested. After all the Seiko and Citizen HAQ models do not get COSC certification (and can't per Swiss rules), and yet still manage to pull off some impressive numbers.


----------



## DanielRussel

Just one correction:

The 251.264 doesn't have EOL !!!!

On the ETA website it doesn't list EOL for his movemnt
I don't know from where you got this info.

Currenly no ETA Analog Quartz Chrono that include EOL!


----------



## chris01

DanielRussel said:


> Just one correction:
> 
> The 251.264 doesn't have EOL !!!!
> 
> On the ETA website it doesn't list EOL for his movemnt
> I don't know from where you got this info.
> 
> Currenly no ETA Analog Quartz Chrono that include EOL!


Do you have anything to support your assertion, other than the absence of positive information?
Here is a scan from the DS-2 instruction book (sorry about the crap quality):


----------



## DanielRussel

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the fast response.
My assumption is based on ETA webite
When there is EOL, it is clearly stated there.
When there is no EOL - it is just emitted as the case here on 251.264

I own myself a Certina Ds First chronograph (251.262) and it doesn't have EOL.

However, after you showed me the certina manual my guess is that there is a mistake on the manual.
Only time will tell...


----------



## TimeSeeker

DanielRussel said:


> Just one correction:
> 
> The 251.264 doesn't have EOL !!!!
> 
> On the ETA website it doesn't list EOL for his movemnt
> I don't know from where you got this info.
> 
> *Currenly no ETA Analog Quartz Chrono that include EOL!*


Even my humble Tissot PRC-200 has the EOL function...


----------



## DanielRussel

Hi TimeSeeker, the Tissot PRC 200 running ETA G10.211 and doesn't have EOL.

You might have confused with the non chrno version which runs f06.111 and does have EOL


----------



## chris01

DanielRussel said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Thanks for the fast response.
> My assumption is based on ETA webite
> When there is EOL, it is clearly stated there.
> When there is no EOL - it is just emitted as the case here on 251.264
> 
> I own myself a Certina Ds First chronograph (251.262) and it doesn't have EOL.
> 
> However, after you showed me the certina manual my guess is that there is a mistake on the manual.
> Only time will tell...


Yes, unless/until ETA publish technical docs we'll have to wait at least 3 years. I have emailed Certina UK with a question, but I don't expect to get a very useful answer.

To date, ETA have only provided one PowerDrive/PreciDrive movement document, for the 251.274 chrono. It's a preliminary version and only describes the stuff you'd need if you were building a new watch with the movement. Nothing about actual operation, calibration, or EOL.

Fortunately my DS-2 is not a mission-critical item. If I'm going away then I take one watch - a solar-powered RC Oceanus.


----------



## chris01

It's now 80 days since I started. The alternate day wear pattern seems to bring the watch very close to 0.0 SPY. Another 10 days then I'll leave it unworn.


----------



## Roarke

After a lot of hunting (and learning) I decided to make one of these watches my own last week. I was a little nervous waiting for it to come and in the end... I couldn't be happier! It looks fantastic and wears very well. A big thank you to Chris01, who helped me find a reliable dealer to ship to the United States.

And now...while I wouldn't want to skew the results of any testing with my poor efforts, I will of course show off some gratuitous photos!









I'm rather surprised at how little information there is about Certina as a brand out there, as it seems (to me) that they're well made, affordable, and attractive watches. Still, I'm just glad I was able to find them.


----------



## chris01

Roarke said:


> After a lot of hunting (and learning) I decided to make one of these watches my own last week. I was a little nervous waiting for it to come and in the end... I couldn't be happier! It looks fantastic and wears very well. A big thank you to Chris01, who helped me find a reliable dealer to ship to the United States.


You're very welcome. Glad to see that you got the best-looking version.


----------



## veno77

Hello,

Where is the cheapest place in Europe to buy online?


----------



## chris01

veno77 said:


> Hello,
> 
> Where is the cheapest place in Europe to buy online?


Send me a PM.
######
Sorry, I was thinking about something else at the time. PM sent!


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

chris01 said:


> You're very welcome. Glad to see that you got the best-looking version.


Hi!
I just received my own DS 2 chrono precidrive! As it was my birthday and anniversary I was treated with the 125th anniversary edition 

Joining WUS today and maybe I will try to upload pictures later on! Cheers,
/Chuck


----------



## chris01

Chuck Vezlo said:


> Hi!
> I just received my own DS 2 chrono precidrive! As it was my birthday and anniversary I was treated with the 125th anniversary edition
> 
> Joining WUS today and maybe I will try to upload pictures later on! Cheers,
> /Chuck


Hi Chuck, welcome to our crazy world. Looking forward to hearing how its accuracy compares with the "cheap" ones. If it was YOUR 125th anniversary, I'd say you deserve something better than a watch!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Chuck Vezlo said:


> Hi!
> I just received my own DS 2 chrono precidrive! As it was my birthday and anniversary I was treated with the 125th anniversary edition
> 
> Joining WUS today and maybe I will try to upload pictures later on! Cheers,
> /Chuck


Congratulations, and welcome to WUS and to the HAQ forum!


----------



## chris01

I'd like to make a suggestion: to all HAQ enthusiasts who have a bit of cash to spare and an empty slot in your watch box - get yourself a DS-2!

You will know from this thread that it's an excellent watch, and there have been no serious criticisms. Even at list price (and it can be obtained significantly cheaper) it's a bit of a bargain. If Swatch had decided to sell it as a Longines or Omega, instead of the almost unknown Certina, it would cost 2 or 3 times as much.

My main point, though, is that we should show them that there is a serious worldwide market for HAQs so that they are encouraged to produce more new models. If sales are poor they'll probably just drop the idea. If sales are good then they'll either put the price up, or make more of an effort in marketing, and maybe properly revive the HAQ watch.

I have passed on the details of my European supplier to a number of members, most of whom have now bought one. If you're in N. America and can't find a dealer, and are a bit reluctant to look abroad, then ask here for comments from your compatriots who've taken the plunge!

I'll be happy to pass on the dealer's info: just send me a PM. I must emphasise that I have no personal interest in this, other than wanting to see a lot more HAQs being sold. Forget exclusivity, I really do want to see another DS-2 on the streets!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

It is on my short list. I am one of those who would be interested in knowing of a good US dealer.


----------



## chris01

watchcrank said:


> It is on my short list. I am one of those who would be interested in knowing of a good US dealer.


Unfortunately, Certina's web site shows only two dealers, in New York and Las Vegas. They don't try very hard, do they?

Search retailer | Certina


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> Unfortunately, Certina's web site shows only two dealers, in New York and Las Vegas. They don't try very hard, do they?


Indeed they don't. I'm curious if someone else in the US special orders Certinas, or if most US customers use one of these two, or if US customers typically give up and order from foreign dealers.

I've mostly - but not entirely - reconciled myself to the thought that I would not have a chance to see this watch in person before buying it, and that I would have to have it shipped to me. In addition to hoping the size, weight, and feel on the wrist would suit me, I'd have to decide quite carefully on color, because I wouldn't have a second chance to choose without incurring shipping and restocking charges, and also lost customs fees if I ordered from abroad.

It is irksome that one of the watches which most interests me right now and which is produced by a company with $10 billion in assets and employing 30,000 people is so difficult to buy in the second largest watch market in the world.


----------



## zeta

I have now measured drift (video method) for about 2 weeks, and it has drifted about -1.1 seconds already! :-| This means about -30 SPY. The first week I wore it 24/7, then had it off at night (no huge difference, but there might be a light decrease in drift from -0.1 s/day -> -0.07 s/day when changing wearing pattern) Seems to suggest it prefers cooler temperatures?

Room temp: 21 C. Outside temp: about -3 C.


----------



## D4n

Could one of you kind gentleman please pm me the info of a reputable dealer sonic can get one of these amazing watches??? I would be forever grateful if you guys could please help me out!!!! I have been wanting one of these since September of last year when they came out but I have no clue where to find d one!!! Please please point me to a dealer that has one with the green hands I love that model!!! Thanks my friends!!


----------



## Sabresoft

D4n said:


> Could one of you kind gentleman please pm me the info of a reputable dealer sonic can get one of these amazing watches??? I would be forever grateful if you guys could please help me out!!!! I have been wanting one of these since September of last year when they came out but I have no clue where to find d one!!! Please please point me to a dealer that has one with the green hands I love that model!!! Thanks my friends!!


Chris01 has a dealer (in Spain) that he will recommend to you. I used them on his recommendation and they were good to deal with, and at a good price. I would send you the info but I am away from home today and don't have the info at hand. PM Chris01 and I'm sure that he will send you the info.


----------



## D4n

Many thanks Sabresoft!!!!!


----------



## Roarke

Sabresoft said:


> Chris01 has a dealer (in Spain) that he will recommend to you. I used them on his recommendation and they were good to deal with, and at a good price. I would send you the info but I am away from home today and don't have the info at hand. PM Chris01 and I'm sure that he will send you the info.


I'd just like to second everything Sabre has said - Chris01's contact in Spain was very easy to deal with and the prices were very competitive. I had a few questions during shipping and they responded often within minutes with the information I'd asked for.

For those wary about buying without seeing it in person, the only (slight) criticism I've heard is that the green dial is a bit more intense than the photography would indicate. Personally though, the only problem I'm having is that I want to keep looking at it all day - it's hard to get any work done!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Roarke said:


> I'd just like to second everything Sabre has said - Chris01's contact in Spain was very easy to deal with and the prices were very competitive. I had a few questions during shipping and they responded often within minutes with the information I'd asked for.
> 
> For those wary about buying without seeing it in person, the only (slight) criticism I've heard is that the green dial is a bit more intense than the photography would indicate. Personally though, the only problem I'm having is that I want to keep looking at it all day - it's hard to get any work done!


Green being more intense might be a good thing. 

Edit: thank you, Chris, for the info in your PM. I will most likely sound out the two US ADs also, but it doesn't hurt to have a good fallback plan.


----------



## webvan

Getting hard to resist...I guess that I sell my Longines Flagship Perpetual Calendar I'll have an excuse to get one too...Anyone want to swap ? ;-)

In the meantime, is there a video somewhere showing how the watch works in chrono mode, especially how that 1/100th second hand moves around ?


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> Getting hard to resist...I guess that I sell my Longines Flagship Perpetual Calendar I'll have an excuse to get one too...Anyone want to swap ? ;-)
> 
> In the meantime, is there a video somewhere showing how the watch works in chrono mode, especially how that 1/100th second hand moves around ?


Have a look at this: http://certina.com/sites/default/files/videos/ds-2_150sec._original_14611.mp4.mp4

You can see the chrono being started just after 1 minute into the video.

What happens is this:

Start the chrono: the 1/100 (plain hand) and 60 sec (hand with a small circle) hands start together. 
1/100 = 1 revolution per second, apparently smoothly **
60 sec = 1 revolution per minute, jumping between seconds

After 1 minute: the 1/100 hand stops at 12 while the 60 sec hand continues normally. The 30-minute and 12-hour hands jump to the next position as required. They don't move gradually between markers.

Stop the chrono: all the moving hands stop. If the 1/100 is already stopped at 12, it moves round to the current 1/100 second position.

You then have the task of reading 4 separate hands to get the time!

** One of the features of the new PowerDrive technology is the 200 steps per second drive. So the 1/100 hand may be jumping up to 200 times per second. Needs a slow-motion video to find out.

Has that helped to explain it?

On the other matter, the DS-2 is a great watch but I'd never give up a VHP PC to own one. Find something else to sell!


----------



## webvan

Thanks for the link, that's actually a pretty good video, none of the usual "luxury watch" useless stuff, and for the step by step explanations on the chrono. Might be tempted by the green one after all...will give it some more thought. As for the Longines VHP PC it's "ok" as I have the same movement in the Omega Double Eagle PC ;-)


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> As for the Longines VHP PC it's "ok" as I have the same movement in the Omega Double Eagle PC ;-)


OK, the HAQ police will not need to visit you.


----------



## D4n

Man I owe you guys a huge thank younfornpushing me over the edge!! I have wanted this watch since before it was released , and now I have one on order!!! Chris01 you truly are a great help and I cant thank you enough my friend for showing me where to get such a wonderful deal on my grail!!! This truly is my grail and it will be my daily wear also. I have always been a quartz junkie I just love accuracy that's what drives me as I am a perfectionist by nature. Now I guess I can be a part of this forum and perform my own testing!! I just cant thank you guys could enough for helping me out and I am stoked to finally have a watch I can truly count on and not have to worry about how far the time is off since I last set it! Thanks so much and have a wonderful day my brothers!!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

D4n said:


> Man I owe you guys a huge thank younfornpushing me over the edge!! I have wanted this watch since before it was released , and now I have one on order!!! Chris01 you truly are a great help and I cant thank you enough my friend for showing me where to get such a wonderful deal on my grail!!!


Congratulations! I look forward to photos when it arrives.


----------



## D4n

Watchcrank you bet buddy!!! I cant wait!! I will take a bunch of pictures for you guys and let you know what I think about it when my baby comes home.


----------



## chris01

D4n said:


> Man I owe you guys a huge thank younfornpushing me over the edge!!


We do this because it makes us more comfortable with our own addictions. There is a partial cure, but it has to start with cutting up all your credit cards.


----------



## chris01

Three months' data, and I am now going to leave it unworn for a month.

This may not be really significant, but it's interesting to look at the final week's data - the total variation (blue bars) shows a loss on each day it was worn, followed by a gain when unworn on the following day. The green SPY line shows it clearly. I'll look at this again later.


----------



## quattro98

A quick photograph of my watch. I've removed the bracelet & replaced it with a Hadley Roma alligator strap on a RHD deployant buckle.

For those who are considering this watch, I bought it from the well-known dealer in Spain (thanks Chris for the recommendation). Juan was great to work with and the watch was shipped promptly. The only issue I had was that I ended up using Paypal because I couldn't get their website to work with a credit card.

I checked with the Hour Passion (Swatch group factory store) in New York and they did not stock the watch and the price was not competitive. I found that a little unusual because often products are priced more competitively in the US by the importer than overseas with a foreign exchange transaction.


----------



## chris01

quattro98 said:


> A quick photograph of my watch. I've removed the bracelet & replaced it with a Hadley Roma alligator strap on a RHD deployant buckle.
> 
> For those who are considering this watch, I bought it from the well-known dealer in Spain (thanks Chris for the recommendation). Juan was great to work with and the watch was shipped promptly. The only issue I had was that I ended up using Paypal because I couldn't get their website to work with a credit card.
> 
> I checked with the Hour Passion (Swatch group factory store) in New York and they did not stock the watch and the price was not competitive. I found that a little unusual because often products are priced more competitively in the US by the importer than overseas with a foreign exchange transaction.


Glad it worked out OK for you. So what you have there is similar to the red-on-strap model, except that your 1/100 numbers should be much easier to read. Very nice.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

quattro98 said:


> A quick photograph of my watch. I've removed the bracelet & replaced it with a Hadley Roma alligator strap on a RHD deployant buckle.
> 
> For those who are considering this watch, I bought it from the well-known dealer in Spain (thanks Chris for the recommendation). Juan was great to work with and the watch was shipped promptly. The only issue I had was that I ended up using Paypal because I couldn't get their website to work with a credit card.
> 
> I checked with the Hour Passion (Swatch group factory store) in New York and they did not stock the watch and the price was not competitive. I found that a little unusual because often products are priced more competitively in the US by the importer than overseas with a foreign exchange transaction.


Great looking combination! Question: is your warranty though the seller, or through Certina in Spain, or will you be able to get warranty service through Certina in the US (if indeed they have any such thing - I'm not familiar with their operations here)?


----------



## quattro98

watchcrank said:


> Great looking combination! Question: is your warranty though the seller, or through Certina in Spain, or will you be able to get warranty service through Certina in the US (if indeed they have any such thing - I'm not familiar with their operations here)?


I don't know the answer to this. I purchased the watch from an authorized dealer, so I assume the international warranty applies and I could send it to the US Swatch service center. Being a quartz watch, I'm not too concerned about it.


----------



## quattro98

chris01 said:


> Glad it worked out OK for you. So what you have there is similar to the red-on-strap model, except that your 1/100 numbers should be much easier to read. Very nice.


Thanks. I like this model because of the "panda" dial design. The change in strap really highlights the black subdials and red accents. I'm not sure, but I think the Certina strap model comes with an alligator grain calf strap, which is appropriate for the price point.


----------



## chris01

quattro98 said:


> I don't know the answer to this. I purchased the watch from an authorized dealer, so I assume the international warranty applies and I could send it to the US Swatch service center. Being a quartz watch, I'm not too concerned about it.


Buying from a Certina AD you get a 2-year international warranty which (I hope I'm right here!) should be honoured by any Swatch Group service location. The Certina.com web site has worldwide dealer & service search pages and you can also read their warranty fine print.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

quattro98 said:


> A quick photograph of my watch. I've removed the bracelet & replaced it with a Hadley Roma alligator strap on a RHD deployant buckle.
> 
> For those who are considering this watch, I bought it from the well-known dealer in Spain (thanks Chris for the recommendation). Juan was great to work with and the watch was shipped promptly. The only issue I had was that I ended up using Paypal because I couldn't get their website to work with a credit card.
> 
> I checked with the Hour Passion (Swatch group factory store) in New York and they did not stock the watch and the price was not competitive. I found that a little unusual because often products are priced more competitively in the US by the importer than overseas with a foreign exchange transaction.


Really nice photo shot! Happy to see the combination, I am waiting for my black leather with red stitches... it's somewhere in the postal services. Can't wait for it to show up!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> Buying from a Certina AD you get a 2-year international warranty which (I hope I'm right here!) should be honoured by any Swatch Group service location. The Certina.com web site has worldwide dealer & service search pages and you can also read their warranty fine print.


Great to know. Thank you!


----------



## chris01

As a result of a couple of PMs I have received recently, I'd like to clarify my position on pricing and AD recommendation, as some people seem to think that I am some kind of an expert in this area. Three months ago I did my own research, using the same tools that are available to anybody, and found a dealer offering a good price. I checked them out via the Certina web site, contacted them with some questions, made my purchase, and received an excellent service. Since then I have passed the AD's details on to others, some of whom have had the same good buying experience as I did.

I have not taken any further interest in the AD, or done any more research into prices. So if you want the cheapest price, please do your own research. If you want an AD who has done a good job in the past, but for whom I cannot speak on current prices or other sales matters, I'm happy to help.


----------



## vizi

Please write to someone that month / sec accuracy Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph (worn on hands)? (please graph without,simply)


----------



## Hans Moleman

vizi said:


> Please write to someone that month / sec accuracy Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph (worn on hands)? (please graph without,simply)











-3.3 seconds per year:

Look at the red straight horizontal line, and read that -3.3 value from the red numbers on the left.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

Good enough for me 


Hans Moleman said:


> View attachment 1386981
> 
> 
> -3.3 seconds per year:
> 
> Look at the red straight horizontal line, and read that -3.3 value from the red numbers on the left.


----------



## chris01

Here's the latest update and, prompted by Hans's helpful addition to my graph, I've changed it a bit and I'll add a detailed explanation.









The graph shows a daily measurement since I started 99 days ago.

The vertical blue bars (using the right-hand vertical axis) show the current difference (Variation) between the starting time and the current time. The black bars mark the changes of wearing pattern.

All the other measurements are seconds per year, using the left-hand vertical axis.

From day 0 to day 60 I wore the watch every day (not at night, when it was left at ambient room temperature), and the SPY is shown in red.

From day 61 to day 90 I wore the watch only on alternate days, and the SPY is shown in green.

From day 91 onwards the watch is currently unworn, and the SPY is shown in brown.

The three markers on the left-hand axis show the average SPY for each of the three wearing patterns over the last 5 days of the measurement period.


----------



## vizi

Thank you!
I wonder whether there is a Certina that in a hurry .. because as described herein plus the experience that is set to "all" PreciDrive delay. (If you are constantly holding hands)


----------



## chris01

vizi said:


> Thank you!
> I wonder whether there is a Certina that in a hurry .. because as described herein plus the experience that is set to "all" PreciDrive delay. (If you are constantly holding hands)


I know English is not your first language (and unfortunately Hungarian is not even one of mine) but I'm unable to follow your meaning.

Have you tried using Google Translate with some very simple sentences?


----------



## vizi

Certina, measurement data according to the - / year accuracy ....
There is a Certina + / year accuracy?
So understandable?


----------



## TimeSeeker

vizi said:


> Certina, measurement data according to the - / year accuracy ....
> There is a Certina + / year accuracy?
> So understandable?


I have no idea what that means. Sorry.


----------



## vizi

it there any certina precidrive that setted to hurry, not to late?


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

I can't tell from my watch yet! I haven't observed the slightest +/- on it so far.
(But then of course, I've only had it two weeks  )



vizi said:


> it there any certina precidrive that setted to hurry, not to late?


----------



## TimeSeeker

vizi said:


> it there any certina precidrive that setted to hurry, not to late?


It depends on how much it is on wrist or off wrist as you can see in the graph above.
Mine is still spot on, but I don't have access or the knowledge on how to use the testing methods like others have here.


----------



## vizi

...at nighttime on wrist there is.


----------



## chris01

The real-world performance will depend on:

1. Initial calibration - almost certainly in steps of +/- 4 SPY - so you can't guarantee closer to zero than 2 seconds. We need the service manual to know the calibration parameters.

2. User's wearing pattern. As you can see from mine there is a range of 8 SPY between daily wear and non-worn. 24-hour wear would probably make it run significantly slower than -4 SPY.

3. Ambient temperature - local, seasonal, and user dependent.

4. Battery condition - possibly.

5. Initial settling and long-term "ageing" of the crystal & other components, if it happens, giving a + or - bias.

Plus others that experts here may suggest.

We don't know what initial performance Certina/ETA set, but we can't expect all the new DS-2s to be the same. However, I'm pretty confident that normal use will keep mine well within the +/- 10 SPY specification.

So, we can each help to answer vizi's question by timing and experimenting.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> Here's the latest update and, prompted by Hans's helpful addition to my graph, I've changed it a bit and I'll add a detailed explanation.


Great data and graphing, Chris!


----------



## TimeSeeker

Chris, any instructions on how to actually collect precise data like the ones you have presented?


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> Chris, any instructions on how to actually collect precise data like the ones you have presented?


This reminds me of the line in the film "The Untouchables", when Malone says to Ness, "Just how far are you prepared to go?".

If you haven't already done so, the read this sticky very carefully: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html

Hans Moleman has a very high-tech method that gives almost instant results, but that's way beyond me (and probably you if you have to ask). Some people like the video method (and I'm sure they'll help you) but my personal preference is for the stopwatch. It's slower for the actual measurement process, but it's less fiddly to set up and deal with the output. You need a (cheap) digital stopwatch, a repeatable time source (not necessarily accurate, but consistent), and Excel or similar. Have a think about how you want to proceed and come back with questions. Or perhaps this should continue in the sticky post?


----------



## vizi

chris01:

_"Initial calibration - almost certainly in steps of +/- 4 SPY - so you can't guarantee closer to zero than 2 seconds. We need the service manual to know the calibration parameters."_


I had access to a Witschi QT6000 for a couple of days to test 2 Certina DS2 PreciDrive Chronographs (one of them is the limited version COSC certified the other one is the "standard" model without the chronometer certification but both are fitted with the ETA 251.264 thermocompensated movement). I had done in the past many calibration of the ETA Thermolines without any problem so I thought I'd be for an easy run here...
At room temperature the "certified one" run at -0.01 sec./day, the "standard one" run at -0.04 sec./day according to the Witschi. 
I was wondering whether the calibration procedure was identical to the well documented (and successfully executed) procedure of the ETA 251.233/232 thermocompensated chronograph movements. I can confirm that the inhibition time is identical, it is still 16 minutes but to my disappointment I could not alter the runs of either watches ("certified one" and "standard one") by following the step by step calibration procedure of the earlier ETA 251.233:
_a) Pull the crown to position 3._

_b) Correct the rate by sending a series_

_of N impulses to the C+ to_

_place (in order the clock forward)_

_and C- (to receive a delay). The_

_impulse is sent by means of a wire_

_connected to the + pole (battery_

_set)._

_One impulse = ± 0.011 sec./day_

_or ± 0.33 sec./month._

_c) After correcting the rate, push the_

_crown back to position 1 (neutral)._

So here we go: I tried it many times to give 6 impulses to C+ but according to the Witschi it never registered on both watches and the run of the watches remained unchanged. Normally one would think about the possibility of faulty movement but I had two so what were the chances to having two faulty movements? Very slim I'd guess.
So here are some question: 
How the hell can we calibrate the ETA 251.264 movements???
Have any of you guys tried to calibrate your thermocompensated Certina DS2 PreciDrive Chronograph? What was your result?
I'm afraid we have a tricky to calibrate movement in the Certina DS2 PreciDrive Chronograph.
Any comment on the above?


----------



## chris01

vizi said:


> So here are some question:
> How the hell can we calibrate the ETA 251.264 movements???
> Have any of you guys tried to calibrate your thermocompensated Certina DS2 PreciDrive Chronograph? What was your result?
> I'm afraid we have a tricky to calibrate movement in the Certina DS2 PreciDrive Chronograph.
> Any comment on the above?


Unfortunately there is no help on ETA's web site, as they haven't published anything on the 251.264. The only data on the similar 251.274 is related to the basic design parameters for a customer wanting to build a watch. Nothing on calibration.

My worry here is that we have another watch like the Aerospace B79, where there are calibration pads but there is apparently no way to use them without specialised maintenance equipment.


----------



## vizi

chris01 said:


> Unfortunately there is no help on ETA's web site, as they haven't published anything on the 251.264. The only data on the similar 251.274 is related to the basic design parameters for a customer wanting to build a watch. Nothing on calibration.
> 
> My worry here is that we have another watch like the Aerospace B79, where there are calibration pads but there is apparently no way to use them without specialised maintenance equipment.


Hi Chris,

I'm glad that you had replied (you are the only one!) to my post (makes me wonder that my post so far resulted one reply only while the subject of "Practical Reason for the High Accuracy Madness?" resulted 63 posts so far... it must be me...).
In your first paragraph you stated the obvious and that is fine though not necessary as we all know what is and what is not on the ETA site.
Your second paragraph is my real problem... the attitude: going after the "easy solution" (which is the "can't be done" attitude) without using the good old common sense and logic. And let's not forget the "urban legends" like "thermocompensated Breitling Aerospace can't be calibrated apart from specially equipped service centres". Now I can see that this new Certina DS2 Chronograph will join the list of non-calibratable swiss-made thermocompensated watches... in this forum. It's about time to end this urban legend business, don't you think?
First point: Do "specialised maintenance equipment" exist? Yes, they do (just as cars on the streets). Using these "specialised maintenance equipment" are the only way to calibrate an ETA Thermoline (using cars are the only method to reach location B from location A?)? No, they are not but they are very convenient (such as cars when the alternative is a long walk).
Second point: Does any one here seriously think that the markings of C- and C+ on the ETA Thermolines are for those "specialised maintenance equipment"? Or perhaps those markings on these movements provide guidance to the human "operator"? Those very expensive "specialised maintenance equipment" do everything (complete analysis of the movement) automatically with practically no human involvemet (the operator places the movement into the movement holder of the "specialised maintenance equipment" then presses "enter" end soon gets a proper report about the state of the movement or gets a properly calibrated (not just in the sense of accuracy but every other critical aspects eg: voltage) movement. These equipment are needed at the industrial scale but it does not mean that for accuracy calibration they are the only solution.
Third point: A local friend of my (former forum poster but the name is not important) proved to me that he could calibrate his Breitling Aerospace (B75) and Krieger Marine Chronometer Chronograph (ETA 988.352) using exactly the same rate adjustment steps in case of both movements without proper ETA documentations (as they are unfortunately not available for those 2 movements). It took him a couple of days to figure out the proper procedure (he used his Witschi QT6000 to check the results) but he did it instead of accepting the urban legend that these movements cannot be calibrated out of the specially equipped service centres. Well, I saw his results so I'm convinced. I also convinced that a similar solution do exist for the Certina DS" Chronograph (ETA 251.264) that is yet to be found. But let's not forget it takes time and determination and some thinking to get the needed results!
My conclusion is that I can't accept the "can't be done" attitude and the creations of "urban legends" and I'm a bit disappointed that even the best posters (like yourself, Chris) give up too easily.


----------



## chris01

vizi said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I'm glad that you had replied (you are the only one!) to my post (makes me wonder that my post so far resulted one reply only while the subject of "Practical Reason for the High Accuracy Madness?" resulted 63 posts so far... it must be me...).


I won't quote all your interesting but occasionally rather uninformed post. Let me begin with the Breitling issue.

From the early Longines/ETA TC movements to almost the present day, there has been to the interested, but obviously not technically informed, observer a process of continous evolution in design and facilities. With the exception of an early TC movement used only in the Li VHP model, I think, they have all been "end-user" adjustable by basically the same method, using the C+ and C- switches or pads. This was probably true of all the Breitling Superquartz movements up to and including the B75, as they are based to a greater or lesser extent on publicly documented ETA movements.

With the B79, which is used in the last couple of Aerospace models, there are significant differences. The movement looks very different from older versions, it has a C+ and a C (not C-) pad, and there is no publicly documented corresponding ETA movement. I spent many happy hours trying to calibrate mine, made extra tedious by the various modes into which the watch can be set, and achieved absolutely nothing. If you ask on any watch forum how to do it, you will get either silence or useless comments about how it's the same as the ETA abd.xyz, which it isn't. *** Nobody, AFAIK, has ever publicly claimed to have adjusted this watch. So please don't lecture me about urban legends.

Now I'll digress (and please, folks, don't let this turn into an off-topic discussion about cars). Modern cars are now completely controlled by electronics; a man with a laptop can tune up your engine in ways that a man with a spanner cannot. Why? Because it's easier, quicker, cheaper, and the technology requires it. If you were designing a new TC movement for the 21st century, rather than the 1980s, why would you make it accessible to the man with a loupe and some screwdrivers? You'd design it to be tested and calibrated on a purpose-made test rig available only to your own service centres.

That's what I think may be happening now. I have no evidence, other than the complete absence of the usual technical documentation plus the lack of success with recent TC movements. I hope to be proved completely wrong!

*** Or be told, none too politely by a Mod (not ours, please note) that you have no right to be taking the back off your own watch!


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## everose

chris01 said:


> If you were designing a new TC movement for the 21st century, rather than the 1980s, why would you make it accessible to the man with a loupe and some screwdrivers? You'd design it to be tested and calibrated on a purpose-made test rig available only to your own service centres.
> 
> That's what I think may be happening now. I have no evidence, other than the complete absence of the usual technical documentation plus the lack of success with recent TC movements. I hope to be proved completely wrong!


I have an unpleasant feeling that this may be a possibility, especially if they are going to keep these new Precidrive mvts exclusively for Swatch Group Companies only.
Its still early days though, so fingers crossed.


----------



## webvan

Kudos to Chris01 for calmly answering that rather boorish post that sounds very much like the works of the (obnoxious) "former forum poster" (not that former since he still uses the forum to sell watches from time to time...), if only because vizi has switched overnight from completely unintelligible posts to readable posts...So yes, there is no documented evidence that the B79 can be end-user regulated, no so called "urban legend" there and it seems that the Precidrive is following the same path, which is unfortunate...unless there is a complex "key sequence" that gets disclosed by ETA at some point. It can't be ruled out but in the meantime HAQ tinkerers are going to feel somewhat frustrated.


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## chris01

webvan said:


> Kudos to Chris01 for calmly answering that rather boorish post that sounds very much like the works of the (obnoxious) "former forum poster" (not that former since he still uses the forum to sell watches from time to time...), if only because vizi has switched overnight from completely unintelligible posts to readable posts...So yes, there is no documented evidence that the B79 can be end-user regulated, no so called "urban legend" there and it seems that the Precidrive is following the same path, which is unfortunate...unless there is a complex "key sequence" that gets disclosed by ETA at some point. It can't be ruled out but in the meantime HAQ tinkerers are going to feel somewhat frustrated.


Thanks for the kind words. I too was a bit puzzled by the apparent change in his grasp of English.

Possibly some consolation for DS-2 owners can be found in the latest version of my test results (see post #172 for the key to the graph).









I think that the more variable unworn (brown) trace may be due to the watch spending no time in the relative temperature stability of my wrist, and being completely subject to ambient temperature changes.

It looks like a careful choice of wearing pattern may provide a means of keeping the timing within a narrow range. Obviously the watch needs to be well set up at the start, and we'll see what happens when the weather gets warmer.


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## vizi

OK, if you want to create urban legends and believe in them then feel free to do so. Obviously that is less challenging than coming up with solutions for real issues. Enough is said so I rest my case.


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## everose

chris01 said:


> It looks like a careful choice of wearing pattern may provide a means of keeping the timing within a narrow range.


Apologies if its been mentioned before but is there a wear pattern specified for this mvt?


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## chris01

everose said:


> Apologies if its been mentioned before but is there a wear pattern specified for this mvt?


The DS-2 instruction book says that Precidrive chronographs have quartz + TC that "enables them to achieve a precision of around +/- 10 seconds per year (under normal conditions of use)."

ETA's web page on the PreciDrive technology says "PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c."

So, the answer is: not really.


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## Hans Moleman

Vizi: Thanks for trying.

Lets hope ETA publishes the manual quickly. Why should they stop publishing manuals?


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## everose

chris01 said:


> The DS-2 instruction book says that Precidrive chronographs have quartz + TC that "enables them to achieve a precision of around +/- 10 seconds per year (under normal conditions of use)."
> 
> ETA's web page on the PreciDrive technology says "PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c."
> 
> So, the answer is: not really.


That's Interesting, thanks but I'm somewhat surprised that its fairly vague considering its +/-10spy spec.

So is similar wording used on previous gen ETA TC cals or is it more specific?


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## TimeSeeker

I have the limited edition that has a COSC certificate. It doesn't say anything about using the watch under any specific conditions to get the +- 10 spy


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## vizi

Hans Moleman said:


> Vizi: Thanks for trying.
> 
> Lets hope ETA publishes the manual quickly. Why should they stop publishing manuals?


Thanks, Hans!

I don't think ETA will ever publish the complete Technical Manual of the ETA 251.264.
Remember, the ETA 988.352 Thermoline movement was part of the very first Thermoline series back in 2001 but ETA never published the Technical Manual of that particular movement though that movement is still part of the current Thermoline Family 13 years after its introduction(!). The Thermocompensated Breitling Aerospace movements are all based on that movement. If one can calibrate the ETA 988.352 then one can calibrate all the thermocompensated Breitling Aerospace models. Could Breitling requested ETA not to publish the Technical Manual of the ETA 988.352 (that time only Breitling used that movement and its "repetition minutes" versions and even since it was only Krieger who used it apart from Breitling)? Actually by itself it is a small miracle that the ETA site offers so many technical documentations without restriction of access! 
As I mentioned, I do not expect ETA would publish the Technical Manual of the ETA 251.264 (Certina DS2) however I do expect someone solving its calibration mystery just as someone solved the mystery of the ETA 988.352 (base caliber for the Breitling Aerospace). It is only a matter of time...Emoji


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## Hans Moleman

vizi said:


> ... Actually by itself it is a small miracle that the ETA site offers so many technical documentations without restriction of access! ...


Definitely!


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## chris01

everose said:


> That's Interesting, thanks but I'm somewhat surprised that its fairly vague considering its +/-10spy spec.
> 
> So is similar wording used on previous gen ETA TC cals or is it more specific?


It's a bit unusual to see anything directly from ETA. Their tech docs discuss calibration but I don't think I've ever seen anything specific on accuracy.
There is the following in the doc for the 252.611 (used in the Conquest & Flagship VHP Perp.Cal.)
#####
Determine the rate "M" in s/month.
If M>0.8 s/month:
correct the rate.
If M<0.8 s/month:
no need to correct the rate.
#####
So if it's within 10 spy, leave it alone. This same instruction appears in several other ETA TC movements.

Usually you are dependent on the watch manufacturer for accuracy claims, and there haven't been many of those lately! I do remember the ad for my VHP from 1986 that claimed +/- 5 spy. Breitling usually claims 15, I think, although I couldn't find anything on their web site. Sinn make no specific claims for the UX (ETA 955.652), but describe the COSC standards. Similarly, Christopher Ward (ETA 251.233).


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## webvan

And Omega mentioned +/- 0,055 seconds per day, i.e. +/- 20 spy for the Calibre 1680 (ETA 252.511) perpetual calendar, very conservative as I found it was more around the usual 20 spy between room and worn temperatures.


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## vizi

......and there is another.


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## Chuck Vezlo

After the first month of use: spot on accurate! (According to the naked eye)

Skickat från min Galaxy Nexus via Tapatalk


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## Sabresoft

Well I blew my test on my DS2 yesterday. Went to adjust the date, and when pulling out the stiff crown it popped out two clicks. So, so much for my timing test. Well I plant to start a new test on all 5 of my TC watches next weekend (DST start I believe).


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> Well I blew my test on my DS2 yesterday. Went to adjust the date, and when pulling out the stiff crown it popped out two clicks. So, so much for my timing test. Well I plant to start a new test on all 5 of my TC watches next weekend (DST start I believe).


That makes us the joint founder members of the HIHAQOC (Highly Incompetent HAQ Owners Club). I think I wasn't paying attention at the time. Oh well, it just means that I move on to the next phase of my timing experiments a bit sooner than planned.


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## Chuck Vezlo

chris01 said:


> That makes us the joint founder members of the HIHAQOC (Highly Incompetent HAQ Owners Club). I think I wasn't paying attention at the time.


LOL! Same here! A little misshap...

I have now acquired and trained the proper Dst/date setting technique 

Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


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## Terry Buist

Hi WUS'ers,
Im wondering if anybody in the USA has purchased from onewatchforyou.com in Spain?
I am curious if there are additional duties/ taxes due upon arrival to the States.
Currently they have neither of the DS2 models I like in stock, but Juan say possible mid-March.
Thanks for your time.


----------



## Roarke

Hi Terry - I purchased a DS-2 from that site recently. There are some additional import duties that you have to pay, which I believe vary from state to state. I had it shipped into New York, and ended up paying an additional $37.15 USD ($27.15 in 'US Customs Duties' + $10.00 in 'Brokerage Charges'). So not too bad.

If you have it delivered to your home address just be aware that it is Cash-on-Delivery, meaning the UPS man cannot leave it at your door without payment. The window for delivery is often 2-4 hours, so for those of us working during the day it's a bit of a hassle. I had mine held overnight at a local UPS warehouse and went to pick it up (and pay that additional fee) after work, instead.

That's just my experience, hopefully it helps!


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## Terry Buist

Thanks Roarke for the info. Looks like I'll go ahead and place my order for the black and green DS2 and hope that it comes into stock pretty soon. 
It just floors me that you can get the watch shipped from Spain for almost $200. less than buying it right here in the states!
No, Hour Passion stores do not discount from MSRP. 
Off to place my order.


----------



## Terry Buist

Roarke said:


> Hi Terry - I purchased a DS-2 from that site recently. There are some additional import duties that you have to pay, which I believe vary from state to state. I had it shipped into New York, and ended up paying an additional $37.15 USD ($27.15 in 'US Customs Duties' + $10.00 in 'Brokerage Charges'). So not too bad.
> 
> If you have it delivered to your home address just be aware that it is Cash-on-Delivery, meaning the UPS man cannot leave it at your door without payment. The window for delivery is often 2-4 hours, so for those of us working during the day it's a bit of a hassle. I had mine held overnight at a local UPS warehouse and went to pick it up (and pay that additional fee) after work, instead.
> 
> That's just my experience, hopefully it helps!


Roarke,

Forgot to ask, what DS2 did you get, and are you pleased with it?

Regards


----------



## Hans Moleman

There are links to the technical documents on the ETA PreciDrive page. The 251.264 documents aren't there though.
I've left a note asking for them. We'll see.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> There are links to the technical documents on the ETA PreciDrive page. The 251.264 documents aren't there though.
> I've left a note asking for them. We'll see.


Frustrating, isn't it? There is only a preliminary document for the similar 251.274, but there's nothing of great interest in that one (unless you are designing a watch case for it).

Good luck with your request; my only question to them was met with a polite suggestion to go away.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Frustrating, isn't it? There is only a preliminary document for the similar 251.274, but there's nothing of great interest in that one (unless you are designing a watch case for it).
> 
> Good luck with your request; my only question to them was met with a polite suggestion to go away.


Very frustrating.
I am still hoping for a simple oversight.
- The links point to documentation. It just is not there (yet).
- Why would you mark the contact points with C- and C+ if a machine is only allowed to do the work? A machine does not need markers, it knows these contact points in its dreams.

Mmmm.


----------



## Roarke

Terry Buist said:


> Roarke,
> 
> Forgot to ask, what DS2 did you get, and are you pleased with it?
> 
> Regards


Hi Terry - I got the dark faced DS2 which Chris shows in his opening post. I've been extremely pleased with it, a well fashioned timepiece that's very easy on the eyes. Hopefully it's in stock for you soon - the worst part is always the wait!


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

My chrono-minute hand has on repeated occasion needed calibration. I've done the calibrations my self according to the users manual. I've had the watch for about one month and the hand has on three occasion got stuck when I reset the chronograph after use.

I've posted a question with regards to this issue here.


----------



## zeta

I now have some updated data on the drift of my Certina DS2 Precidrive:

When worn 24/7 : About *-34 SPY* (based on 1 weeks data)
When worn except nighttime: *-26 SPY* (based on about 4 weeks data)
When off at room temperature (23 C) 24/7: *-11 SPY* (based on 2 weeks data)

I'll add graphs and confidence intervals later. I will also check how the drift depends on room temperature as the season changes.

As we can see, the hotter it is, the slower it moves. For an ordinary (non TC) I guess it should be the other way around? So I guess this one is overcompensating?


----------



## chris01

zeta said:


> I now have some updated data on the drift of my Certina DS2 Precidrive:
> 
> When worn 24/7 : About *-34 SPY* (based on 1 weeks data)
> When worn except nighttime: *-26 SPY* (based on about 4 weeks data)
> When off at room temperature (23 C) 24/5: *-11 SPY* (based on 2 weeks data)
> 
> I'll add graphs and confidence intervals later. I will also check how the drift depends on room temperature as the season changes.
> 
> As we can see, the hotter it is, the slower it moves. For an ordinary (non TC) I guess it should be the other way around? So I guess this one is overcompensating?


This looks way out of spec. Mine varies between -3.4 SPY when worn daily (not 24 hrs) and +4.6 SPY unworn at RT.

I have no idea, so I'll ask the questions: 
- do you have a very stable reference time source?
- how are you measuring the offset?
- are you taking frequent measurements (daily)?

If your timing isn't VERY precise then 1 week is nowhere near enough for an accurate SPY calculation. But if it's really losing 2 seconds in 4 weeks that is worrying. Waiting for seasonal effects to show up is really not the issue here!


----------



## TimeSeeker

I have been working on the basis that Chris gave me.
so far it is a predictable +1.34 sec per year.
I am new to measurements, but as a scientist, I follow protocol quite well.


----------



## zeta

chris01 said:


> This looks way out of spec. Mine varies between -3.4 SPY when worn daily (not 24 hrs) and +4.6 SPY unworn at RT.
> 
> I have no idea, so I'll ask the questions:
> - do you have a very stable reference time source?
> - how are you measuring the offset?
> - are you taking frequent measurements (daily)?
> 
> If your timing isn't VERY precise then 1 week is nowhere near enough for an accurate SPY calculation. But if it's really losing 2 seconds in 4 weeks that is worrying. Waiting for seasonal effects to show up is really not the issue here!


I'm using both timeanddate.com and time-a.nist.gov, which I find to be very stable (and agrees with one another.)

I'm measuring with the video method (filming the watch next to the 2 above reference clocks). With the Certina DS 2 I'm filming with the chronograph on to read offset from the 1/100 sec dial. The video itself is ~30 fps, which gives an accuracy of about +-1/30 seconds.

At first I took measurtements daily, but later about once a week. But since the accuracy is +-1/30 sec this doesn't matter.


----------



## webvan

So you start the chrono each time to make sure it's in synch with the seconds hand? Sounds a bit complicated and a potential source of error. showing the miliseconds on your screen with Catalin's EarthSunX with a prior synch with n.cmd (both tools linked from the sticky I believe) and matching the tick of the seconds hand might help with consistency?


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> So you start the chrono each time to make sure it's in synch with the seconds hand? Sounds a bit complicated and a potential source of error. showing the miliseconds on your screen with Catalin's EarthSunX with a prior synch with n.cmd (both tools linked from the sticky I believe) and matching the tick of the seconds hand might help with consistency?


I agree - too many sources of error. Ignore the chrono and use the seconds sub-dial. Also, you could try the stopwatch method (described in the Sticky) in parallel. Your watch is apparently so wrong that either your measurement method is badly flawed or the watch should go back to Certina. So far nobody else has reported their watch to be outside the +/- 10 SPY specification.


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> I'm using both timeanddate.com and time-a.nist.gov, which I find to be very stable (and agrees with one another.)
> 
> I'm measuring with the video method (filming the watch next to the 2 above reference clocks). With the Certina DS 2 I'm filming with the chronograph on to read offset from the 1/100 sec dial. The video itself is ~30 fps, which gives an accuracy of about +-1/30 seconds.
> 
> At first I took measurtements daily, but later about once a week. But since the accuracy is +-1/30 sec this doesn't matter.


You can see how well you've synchronized the chronograph when you're viewing the frames.
Perfect synchronization isn't even required.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

*Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph*

Now trying on Shark Mesh!









iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

How comfortable is it on the mesh versus strap?


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## Chuck Vezlo

ronalddheld said:


> How comfortable is it on the mesh versus strap?


I find this mesh comfortable. It's a bit on the heavy side, but compared to a strap, being very light in weight, this one makes the watch sit very nice on the wrist!

Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


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## zeta

chris01 said:


> I agree - too many sources of error. Ignore the chrono and use the seconds sub-dial. Also, you could try the stopwatch method (described in the Sticky) in parallel. Your watch is apparently so wrong that either your measurement method is badly flawed or the watch should go back to Certina. So far nobody else has reported their watch to be outside the +/- 10 SPY specification.


The accuracy of the method is only limited by the number of frames per second in the film. In my case it's 29.97 frames per second. Then it's just a matter of jumping frame to frame and measuring the time it takes for the clocks second hand (not the chronograph) to catch up with the reference clock. I can either count frames or look at the distance the (in my case red) centisecond hand moves, it doesn't really matter for the sake of accuracy.

Also, efter having worn it for 30 days it was clearly already more than 2 seconds behind (where the starting offset was about 0.2 seconds.)

I was certainly disappointed that it didn't hold the +-10 SPY spec, but is it reasonable to assume that they actually will hold this spec for the non-COSC model?

Also, the worrying thing is that it is so dependant on temperature (-11 SPY room temperature, 23C, and -26 when worn daily (off at night)). If Certina tests the clock in one of those measuring machines, I assume it will only be tested for room temperature (-11 SPY) not on someone's wrist? Maybe they only calibrate it for room temperature?


----------



## chris01

zeta said:


> The accuracy of the method is only limited by the number of frames per second in the film. In my case it's 29.97 frames per second. Then it's just a matter of jumping frame to frame and measuring the time it takes for the clocks second hand (not the chronograph) to catch up with the reference clock. I can either count frames or look at the distance the (in my case red) centisecond hand moves, it doesn't really matter for the sake of accuracy.
> 
> Also, efter having worn it for 30 days it was clearly already more than 2 seconds behind (where the starting offset was about 0.2 seconds.)
> 
> I was certainly disappointed that it didn't hold the +-10 SPY spec, but is it reasonable to assume that they actually will hold this spec for the non-COSC model?
> 
> Also, the worrying thing is that it is so dependant on temperature (-11 SPY room temperature, 23C, and -26 when worn daily (off at night)). If Certina tests the clock in one of those measuring machines, I assume it will only be tested for room temperature (-11 SPY) not on someone's wrist? Maybe they only calibrate it for room temperature?


OK, you're confident in your measurements, so the watch is definitely faulty. It looks like the TC process is faulty (if that's possible). If so it should go back for repair or replacement.

I don't believe there can be any significant difference between the COSC and non-COSC versions. ETA builds and adjusts the movements then sends some to COSC for testing, and I don't think that COSC do any fine adjustment before issuing their certificate. Since Certina claim 10 SPY for all versions why would they deliberately downgrade the 'cheaper' ones? Or, conversely, build a super-accurate COSC model? Since the unit of adjustment is almost certainly +/- 4 SPY they don't have much scope for deliberate up- or downgrading.

Edit: Also, the COSC tests are at a range of temperatures. Can't remember the detail but someone here will know.


----------



## zeta

chris01 said:


> OK, you're confident in your measurements, so the watch is definitely faulty. It looks like the TC process is faulty (if that's possible). If so it should go back for repair or replacement.
> 
> I don't believe there can be any significant difference between the COSC and non-COSC versions. ETA builds and adjusts the movements then sends some to COSC for testing, and I don't think that COSC do any fine adjustment before issuing their certificate. Since Certina claim 10 SPY for all versions why would they deliberately downgrade the 'cheaper' ones? Or, conversely, build a super-accurate COSC model? Since the unit of adjustment is almost certainly +/- 4 SPY they don't have much scope for deliberate up- or downgrading.
> 
> Edit: Also, the COSC tests are at a range of temperatures. Can't remember the detail but someone here will know.


It certainly doesn't hold the +-10 SPY spec, and it should be optimized for wear, not for room temperature. However, there was an earlier poster in this thread that tested 2 certina DS2 Precidrives (one COSC and the other non-COSC) on a measuring machine: (Witschi QT6000)

https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-2-precidrive-chronograph-940252-19.html#post7443234

According to these tests (in room temperature) the COSC was -0.01 sec/day (-3.65 SPY) and the non-COSC -0.04 sec/day (-14.6 SPY). It would be nice to see how they would have performed in wrist-temperature. Maybe even slower? Both my watch and yours go slower when the temperature increases, but unequally much. So if that behaviour is universal to these models, then the non-COSC above might have been even worse in wrist temperature.

I have a theory that maybe only a select few that undergoes further (temperature variant) calibration and testing by ETA gets sent to COSC-testing. Maybe the rest are just calibrated on one of those measuring machines in room temperature? I think it seems reasonable that a TC-movement should have at least two parameters that can be calibrated, one that determines some "base" correction (correcting the quartz "base" frequency) and the other how much the correction should change when temperature changes. This is assuming that each quartz crystal is unique so that their frequency vs. temperature relationship varies slightly between different crystals. In that case a proper calibration would have to involve tests under varying temperatures - does anybody know if they (ETA) actually do that? Maybe that is more expensive?

Also the requirements to pass a COSC test is only +-25 SPY, but still Certina claims +-10 SPY. According to the COSC website (COSC - Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres)



> - Can a non-certified watch meet the precision criteria of a chronometer ? No, as the components of a chronometer are of a better quality and the care granted to its assembly and its setting cannot be compared.


So I'm slightly sceptical that they can actually hold the +-10 SPY for all their models.

We need more testers of this model to present their data here!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> Edit: Also, the COSC tests are at a range of temperatures. Can't remember the detail but someone here will know.


Per Wikipedia, the testing is done at 8° C, 23° C, and 38° C, with the standard for quartz being fairly loose at the two extreme temperatures.


----------



## webvan

I would still check the measurements with EarthsunX/n.cmd - might not change the end result much but it will be more reliable as the only "ball in the air" is your eyes ;-)

As for accuracy I've found that between warm (router) and room, the ETA TC movements could vary by about 20 seconds, so yes +/- 10 is possible, assuming proper calibration...talking of which, the lack of end user calibration is what's keeping me from getting it. Especially since I'm happy with its cousin, the Lacroix Mirros that can be adjusted if need be.


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> ... So I'm slightly sceptical that they can actually hold the +-10 SPY for all their models.
> 
> We need more testers of this model to present their data here!


I doubt that Certina and ETA do any calibration.
ETA will calibrate the COSC movements: A COSC test is expensive.

Certina will just wing it, and hope no one sends a watch back because it isn't accurate enough.

Just check the older threads and see how many watches have needed re-calibration: It is very common.
The 10 second a year is just about at the edge of a quartz crystal' abilities. To get that requires some special care.


----------



## chris01

zeta said:


> It certainly doesn't hold the +-10 SPY spec, and it should be optimized for wear, not for room temperature. However, there was an earlier poster in this thread that tested 2 certina DS2 Precidrives (one COSC and the other non-COSC) on a measuring machine: (Witschi QT6000)
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-2-precidrive-chronograph-940252-19.html#post7443234
> 
> According to these tests (in room temperature) the COSC was -0.01 sec/day (-3.65 SPY) and the non-COSC -0.04 sec/day (-14.6 SPY). It would be nice to see how they would have performed in wrist-temperature. Maybe even slower? Both my watch and yours go slower when the temperature increases, but unequally much. So if that behaviour is universal to these models, then the non-COSC above might have been even worse in wrist temperature.
> 
> I have a theory that maybe only a select few that undergoes further (temperature variant) calibration and testing by ETA gets sent to COSC-testing. Maybe the rest are just calibrated on one of those measuring machines in room temperature? I think it seems reasonable that a TC-movement should have at least two parameters that can be calibrated, one that determines some "base" correction (correcting the quartz "base" frequency) and the other how much the correction should change when temperature changes. This is assuming that each quartz crystal is unique so that their frequency vs. temperature relationship varies slightly between different crystals. In that case a proper calibration would have to involve tests under varying temperatures - does anybody know if they (ETA) actually do that? Maybe that is more expensive?
> 
> Also the requirements to pass a COSC test is only +-25 SPY, but still Certina claims +-10 SPY. According to the COSC website (COSC - Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres)
> 
> So I'm slightly sceptical that they can actually hold the +-10 SPY for all their models.
> 
> We need more testers of this model to present their data here!


We're making a lot of generally uninformed guesses between us. The only reasonably reliable arbiter of your results will be Certina. Why not send it back and ask them to sort it?

I do agree about the need for more tests, though. Where are all the DS-2 buyers?


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> ... Why not send it back and ask them to sort it? ...


Too right! Send it back.


----------



## ronalddheld

I thought EarthSunX employs Catalin's script to adjust its time as n.cmd


----------



## webvan

Well n.cmd updates the PC's time and then you run EarthsunX to show the time with milliseconds.


----------



## TimeSeeker

I have begun some tests using the link provided earlier. I have the COSC version. As soon as I have enough data I will post it.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

*Re: A little off-topic*

The Ides of March is near!

My watch has lost approximately 1/10 sec during March so far. 
During February I lost 1-2/10 sec.

Using my "naked eye" method on my COSC version. Wearing the watch from time to time.


----------



## zeta

chris01 said:


> We're making a lot of generally uninformed guesses between us. The only reasonably reliable arbiter of your results will be Certina. Why not send it back and ask them to sort it?
> 
> I do agree about the need for more tests, though. Where are all the DS-2 buyers?


I have started with contacting Certina customer service about where to send it. In the process I discovered something weird on their website. On the bottom of this page:

Movements | Certina



> This allows fluctuations in the rate precision of a normal quartz watch due to temperature variations to be reduced by several seconds a week. The precision is 20 times more accurate than on a normal quartz watch, i.e. +/- 10 seconds per year (0.07 seconds/day).


But as we all know, 0.07 seconds per day equals 0.07*365 = 25.6 SPY! Seems like they "round off" the COSC limit of 25 SPY down to the closest multiple of 10, or maybe +-10 SPY simply sounds cooler, LOL!


----------



## chris01

zeta said:


> I have started with contacting Certina customer service about where to send it. In the process I discovered something weird on their website. On the bottom of this page:
> 
> Movements | Certina
> 
> But as we all know, 0.07 seconds per day equals 0.07*365 = 25.6 SPY! Seems like they "round off" the COSC limit of 25 SPY down to the closest multiple of 10, or maybe +-10 SPY simply sounds cooler, LOL!


Maybe the marketing man can't use a calculator, or he divided 10 by 365, got 0.027, and then just mistyped the answer. 

Either way, 10 SPY is used in several different places, so I'd rely on that (unless, of course, that one is also wrong).

Really, our best answer is what we achieve in practice, as we know that many HAQs do better than spec, while a few do much worse.

Glad to hear that you are pursuing Certina and I hope that works out OK.


----------



## TimeSeeker

ok, I am putting the data together in excell so I can present it.
Before I do so, which will take me some time as I suck at excel, in the last 10 day period, I wore the watch on alternate days for 8 hours only, the day I wore it.
Prediction: -2.20 spy (which I think is highly optimistic from looking at other people's charts)

I also have data without wearing at all, and 1 week with wearing it 12 hours a day each day in the beginning.

P.S.
I have the Limited Edition COSC model If that makes any difference and I used the stopwatch method.


----------



## chabusch

Hi Guys, 

I read somwhere that the DS2's date was non-quickset. Is that true? 

THX


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

chabusch said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I read somwhere that the DS2's date was non-quickset. Is that true?
> 
> THX


Dude, read the first post in this thread on how to set the date. I think the answer to your worries are there.

Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## Hans Moleman

A tiny bit of 251.264 documentation appeared on ETA's website.
Not the calibration information we're after though. 
Some progress though ...


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> A tiny bit of 251.264 documentation appeared on ETA's website.
> Not the calibration information we're after though.
> Some progress though ...


It's a similar document to that already provided for the PowerDrive/PreciDrive 251.274. Interesting to see that the projected battery life without using the chronograph is nearly 5 years. It's a long wait to find out whether there really is an EOL function!


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

Now trying on leather strap...


----------



## John14

Hi everyone, well, after reading as much info as I could find on the DS2 I decided to get one. The next problem was where. After reading about how good (link edited out) and Juan were to deal with I decided to check them out. Juan was as good to deal with as reported. So what could I do but buy one? Thanks Juan. Thanks chris01 for doing the original review. Now I must wait for it to arrive. I will post some photos when it does.


----------



## chris01

John14 said:


> Hi everyone, well, after reading as much info as I could find on the DS2 I decided to get one. The next problem was where. After reading about how good ######## and Juan were to deal with I decided to check them out. Juan was as good to deal with as reported. So what could I do but buy one? Thanks Juan. Thanks chris01 for doing the original review. Now I must wait for it to arrive. I will post some photos when it does.


Great! I hope you will enjoy it as much as other people here. I think it's regarded as good practice not to put links to dealers, except for forum sponsors, in our posts. We tend to use PMs to exchange that information. Which model did you choose?


----------



## John14

I got the Limited Edition. Every time I saw a photo of it, it said "Buy me, buy me". So what could I do?


----------



## chris01

John14 said:


> I got the Limited Edition. Every time I saw a photo of it, it said "Buy me, buy me". So what could I do?


Isn't it always the way it happens - this question is asked so often and you never have a good answer.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

*Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph*



John14 said:


> I got the Limited Edition. Every time I saw a photo of it, it said "Buy me, buy me". So what could I do?


Welcome to the club! 
Mine said "Hello" when I entered the shop and immediately triggered a must have reflex 

PM me when you get yours and we can compare our ltd ed number 

Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## John14

It will be interesting to see if your LE number is larger or smaller than mine. I would like to get number 1888 but I don't think I would be that lucky.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

*Re: A little off-topic*



Chuck Vezlo said:


> The Ides of March is near!
> 
> My watch has lost approximately 1/10 sec during March so far.
> During February I lost 1-2/10 sec.
> 
> Using my "naked eye" method on my COSC version. Wearing the watch from time to time.


March so far: lost ap. 0,5s during the 25 days.
Irregular wear, ambient temperature 20C inside, 4C outside.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

chris01 said:


> That makes us the joint founder members of the HIHAQOC (Highly Incompetent HAQ Owners Club). I think I wasn't paying attention at the time. Oh well, it just means that I move on to the next phase of my timing experiments a bit sooner than planned.


 Ping @Sabresoft @chris01 #HIHAQOC

Today is the day - the DST day! How many of you F9:ers messed up? ;-)


----------



## ronalddheld

Chuck Vezlo said:


> Ping @Sabresoft @chris01 #HIHAQOC
> 
> Today is the day - the DST day! How many of you F9:ers messed up? ;-)


DST starting where?


----------



## svorkoetter

Chuck Vezlo said:


> Ping @Sabresoft @chris01 #HIHAQOC
> 
> Today is the day - the DST day! How many of you F9:ers messed up? ;-)


Apparently you did. 

DST started three weeks ago here.


----------



## chris01

Chuck Vezlo said:


> Ping @Sabresoft @chris01 #HIHAQOC
> 
> Today is the day - the DST day! How many of you F9:ers messed up? ;-)


I can suspend my membership of the HIHAQOC until April 30th, since I was paying attention this time.

An interesting RC event last night: I was assuming that all my RC devices would be spot-on this morning. Both my clocks were fine but, for some unaccountable reason, I had left my two Oceanus watches in a closed steel cabinet yesterday (not a safe, just a painted office cabinet).

As expected, the S1050 was exactly an hour slow and indicated a failed sync. However, my S100 was showing the correct H and M but was about 10 seconds slow. This little fellow (excuse the anthropomorphism, and I promise not to mention the SOUL of a watch!) had spent half the night desperately searching for a signal and got pretty damn close. We do have usable reception from both MSF and DCF77 but I did not expect anything to happen inside what is nearly a Faraday cage. I do love this watch!


----------



## TimeSeeker

ronalddheld said:


> DST starting where?


In Europe and almost all the rest of the world that follows DST


----------



## John14

Well, after what seemed like forever my watch arrived today. Looks great on. Now just waiting for the red leather band to arrive. Certina do not have them in stock and it will be about another 4 weeks before it becomes available. I did not realize how difficult it is to take a good photo of a watch. These are my first attempts to post photos.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

There's a new issue on the streets... Mmmhhh... Guess the colours if you want! Cheers from Zurich 

Skickat från min Galaxy Nexus via Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

*The Growing PreciDrive Family*

There are now five PreciDrive movements on ETA's website. Unfortunately there is no more detailed technical information than we have seen already.

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.264 PreciDrive

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.274 PreciDrive

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.294 PreciDrive

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.474 PreciDrive

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: G10.212 PreciDrive


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: The Growing PreciDrive Family*



chris01 said:


> There are now five PreciDrive movements on ETA's website. Unfortunately there is no more detailed technical information than we have seen already.
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.264 PreciDrive
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.274 PreciDrive
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.294 PreciDrive
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.474 PreciDrive
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: G10.212 PreciDrive


Why so many?
I could not see any differences between them until I saw the number of stepper motors change.
And the G10.212 seems to be a cheap unrepairable version. With a 60 second inhibition period.


----------



## chris01

*Re: The Growing PreciDrive Family*



Hans Moleman said:


> Why so many?
> I could not see any differences between them until I saw the number of stepper motors change.
> And the G10.212 seems to be a cheap unrepairable version. With a 60 second inhibition period.


I hope they're going to do something worthwhile with all this stuff. I'd like to see a 3-hand + Perp. Cal., in titanium.


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: The Growing PreciDrive Family*



chris01 said:


> I hope they're going to do something worthwhile with all this stuff. I'd like to see a 3-hand + Perp. Cal., in titanium.


I hope so too... Going off topic, my very "unobtainable dream" would be a watch very similar to a "Rolex GMT Master" with a thermocompensated solar quartz movement and perpetual calendar. Too much, isn't it ?


----------



## chris01

*Re: The Growing PreciDrive Family*



dicioccio said:


> I hope so too... Going off topic, my very "unobtainable dream" would be a watch very similar to a "Rolex GMT Master" with a thermocompensated solar quartz movement and perpetual calendar. Too much, isn't it ?


Almost certainly. But there's no major technical obstacle - all the bits are there in various watches; it just needs a marketing man to make a brave decision. It is quite surprising that we have some very expensive HAQs that omit features that fit so well: independent hour hand and 100-year perpetual calendar are the obvious ones.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

Six weeks of irregular wear: 0,7 s behind

Skickat från min Galaxy Nexus via Tapatalk


----------



## Igorek

vizi said:


> I My Certina!
> View attachment 1350276
> View attachment 1352943
> 
> Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year


May I ask how you managed to close it?


----------



## vizi

Igorek said:


> May I ask how you managed to close it?


Simply pushed by hand on the back cover into place.


----------



## sean0810

This is my first post.

I purchased the non COSC version of Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph in January, the main incentive being the claimed 10 spy accuracy. In the first month it lost 2 seconds. I reset the watch, but in the following two months, it has lost another 4 seconds. I timed the watch using an iPhone atomic clock app, and though I realise this might not be the most accurate method, 6 seconds lost in 3 months I think allows more than enough margin for error. Accuracy of around 24 spy then, while impressive in the ordinary scheme of things, does not match the claimed specs. I should mention that I only wear the watch very rarely and as an expat living in Asia, the daytime temperature is in the 30-35 C range. I have already contacted Certina in Hong Kong who sent what looks like a standard email reply to bring the watch in for examination. 

My question is then, to what extent should I insist on the watch performing to its claimed 10 spy? Could under perform spec be due to my wear pattern and relatively high temperature?


----------



## bandityo

Love to see a couple wrists shots with this watch...anyone?

David


----------



## Hans Moleman

sean0810 said:


> This is my first post.
> 
> I purchased the non COSC version of Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph in January, the main incentive being the claimed 10 spy accuracy. In the first month it lost 2 seconds. I reset the watch, but in the following two months, it has lost another 4 seconds. I timed the watch using an iPhone atomic clock app, and though I realise this might not be the most accurate method, 6 seconds lost in 3 months I think allows more than enough margin for error. Accuracy of around 24 spy then, while impressive in the ordinary scheme of things, does not match the claimed specs. I should mention that I only wear the watch very rarely and as an expat living in Asia, the daytime temperature is in the 30-35 C range. I have already contacted Certina in Hong Kong who sent what looks like a standard email reply to bring the watch in for examination.
> 
> My question is then, to what extent should I insist on the watch performing to its claimed 10 spy? Could under perform spec be due to my wear pattern and relatively high temperature?


Has Certina advertised with the 10 spy accuracy? I could only find some hinting for the COSC model.

If they did, and you bought a watch because of it, you should ask them to put this right. Replace the watch or adjust it, so that you get a watch that matches the advertisement.

It pays, as you did, to get as much information as possible. I would wear it for a fortnight and get some idea how large a role the temperature plays in this. I doubt that corrects a 24 spy rate though.

Lets hope ETA puts more PreciDrive documentation on the web, so that we can calibrate them ourselves.

Good luck with following this up! Love to know how Certina handles this.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

bandityo said:


> Love to see a couple wrists shots with this watch...anyone?
> 
> David


Dude, are you saying there are no wrist shots in this thread? I am truly amazed.


----------



## bandityo

well there was one.. like to see more on other colors, etc


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

I'll try to get back with som pics!

Meanwhile let me report on my latest accuracy check: 
*Two months of irregular wear, less then 1 second behind*.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

bandityo said:


> well there was one.. like to see more on other colors, etc


You'll find some shots on different bands here:
--> Den stora paketöppningstråden! | Sida 25 | Klocksnack

and here:
--> Mitt hundrade inlägg (nytt armband - handledsskott och operation) | Klocksnack


----------



## bandityo

SOmeone give me a couple nice wrist shots please.

THanks,

David


----------



## TimeSeeker

bandityo said:


> SOmeone give me a couple nice wrist shots please.
> 
> THanks,
> 
> David


Taken on May the 2nd for this thread, but forgot to post earlier.


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

bandityo said:


> SOmeone give me a couple nice wrist shots please.
> 
> THanks,
> 
> David


Dude, check out the links I posted May 3 in this thread

Skickat från min Galaxy Nexus via Tapatalk


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

After 67 days of irregular wear, air travel, swimming and sauna my watch finally got more than 1 s off. Today will be remembered as my re set day. 

Skickat från min Galaxy Nexus via Tapatalk


----------



## bandityo

thanks guys!


----------



## sean0810

The manual that comes with the watch states 'around 10 spy'. In any event it is off wrist in 30C temp consistently off by -24 spy and in some conditions far far worse (it lost 2 seconds in two days in an air con hotel room safe). It is now with Certina for repair. Funnily enough the girl at the counter thought there was something else wrong with the watch when the chronograph second timing hand flew around the dial instead of ticking!


----------



## TimeSeeker

131 days, -2 sec so far


----------



## Hans Moleman

sean0810 said:


> The manual that comes with the watch states 'around 10 spy'. In any event it is off wrist in 30C temp consistently off by -24 spy and in some conditions far far worse (it lost 2 seconds in two days in an air con hotel room safe). It is now with Certina for repair. Funnily enough the girl at the counter thought there was something else wrong with the watch when the chronograph second timing hand flew around the dial instead of ticking!


Well done! Those are silly numbers. You should not have to put up with that.


----------



## chris01

Time for an update. I have been looking at how to keep the watch within, say, +/- 0.1 SPY by varying the wearing pattern. This has been moderately successful, but I'll say a bit more after the graphs.









The first graph shows a daily measurement since I started 183 days ago.

The vertical blue bars (using the right-hand vertical axis) show the current difference (Variation) between the starting time and the current time. The black bars mark the changes of wearing pattern.

All the other measurements are seconds per year, using the left-hand vertical axis.

From day 0 to day 60 I wore the watch every day (not at night, when it was left at ambient room temperature), and the SPY is shown in red.

From day 61 to day 90 I wore the watch only on alternate days, and the SPY is shown in green.

From day 91 to day 109 the watch was unworn, and the SPY is shown in brown.

At this point I accidentally stopped the watch, so the Variation data restarts at zero.

From day 110 onwards I was attempting to bring the SPY as close to zero as possible by wearing the watch on specific days; the SPY is shown in purple.

The four markers on the left-hand axis show the average SPY for each of the four wearing patterns over the last 5 days of each measurement period.

Taking the fourth period only and expanding the vertical scale, we get this:









The red dots show the timing on the day AFTER the watch was unworn for a day. It now appears that, to keep the timing close to zero, I need to wear it nearly every day, with only occasional idle days to speed it up a bit. This seems to show an acceleration from the earlier measurements. This could be due to ambient temperature (as we're now into Spring), or even possibly ageing.

I will soon be leaving the watch unworn for a week or two and I now expect this to screw up my experiment completely!


----------



## webvan

Very interesting, the patterns are certainly consistent from day 1 to 109 with the +/-10 spy rating. Looking forward to the next updates.

PS - nice graphs, are they done with Excel ?


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> PS - nice graphs, are they done with Excel ?


Thanks. Yes, but I sometimes find myself spending too much time adjusting my worksheet and graphs to improve the presentation. I hope they are clear enough, but I'm always open to suggestions ...


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Thanks. Yes, but I sometimes find myself spending too much time adjusting my worksheet and graphs to improve the presentation. I hope they are clear enough, but I'm always open to suggestions ...


Its all part of the fun. 

I like how Peter did it.
An additional bar on the bottom that shows worn/not worn.


----------



## stefen

Is there an EOL (low battery) fuction at DS-2?


----------



## chris01

This has been discussed at some length, maybe in a different thread - I can't easily check at present. The best answer is that the user manual says yes, but it's not clear that they really have implemented EOL using the small seconds sub-dial.

So we have to wait for a few years to find out, or some brave person deliberately runs down a battery to test it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stefen

Or maybe a question at Certina (official)?


----------



## chris01

Do a search for "battery EOL indication" on this forum.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hansur

Bought the LE yesterday. Very happy with it so far. Love the look (only negative in my personal opinion is the tachymeter). I've been out looking at all the dials and for me the LE is the one that looks best even though I found it the worst when looking at pictures beforehand. Love the feel of the buttons, the bracelet is nice, I'd prefer a slightly larger case but it's close, and I love the fact that all you guys seem to find it's quite accurate.


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## VitekB

Hi, could someone tell me how large is the case in terms of lug to lug length?


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## chris01

VitekB said:


> Hi, could someone tell me how large is the case in terms of lug to lug length?


You'll find the info, together with what I hoped would be a reasonably complete set of data, here:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-2-precidrive-chronograph-940252.html#post6979754


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## chris01

Some minor DS-2 news from Certina.com.

There are now 9 models shown on the website, up from the previous 6. Two of the new entries are just the existing green & yellow models now offered on a colour-matched strap. The third is the red model, now on a bracelet, but shown as Ti rather than St Steel. I'm not sure that I'm convinced, as the original red/leather model was first shown as Ti, subsequently changed to Steel.

The other news is that the user manual is now available for download as a PDF.

No sign of the three-hand PreciDrive yet.

Just noticed that ETA now have a big list of PreciDrive movements:
ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies

ETA have also added manufacturing and usage info for the 251.264, but still nothing on rate adjustment.
https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=28


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## chris01

Following up on my previous update, see here for details:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-2-precidrive-chronograph-940252-29.html#post7808993

I'm now recovering from 10 days unworn, during which the watch has gained nearly 0.25 sec (+8 SPY). With daily wear it's now running at about -0.5 SPY, so it will take a fair time to get back to zero, after which I will use the wearing pattern to keep the watch as close to zero as possible.


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> Some minor DS-2 news from Certina.com.
> 
> There are now 9 models shown on the website, up from the previous 6. Two of the new entries are just the existing green & yellow models now offered on a colour-matched strap. The third is the red model, now on a bracelet, but shown as Ti rather than St Steel. I'm not sure that I'm convinced, as the original red/leather model was first shown as Ti, subsequently changed to Steel.
> 
> The other news is that the user manual is now available for download as a PDF.
> 
> No sign of the three-hand PreciDrive yet.
> 
> Just noticed that ETA now have a big list of PreciDrive movements:
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
> 
> ETA have also added manufacturing and usage info for the 251.264, but still nothing on rate adjustment.
> https://secure.eta.ch/CSP/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=1&tabid=28


OK, this now gets confusing. Originally the Thermoline was the thermocompensated range, but now their other ranges also include thermocompensated models. Still, maybe they are heading towards selling a much larger volume of TC models which could only result in more TC watch choices and this can't be a bad thing.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> OK, this now gets confusing. Originally the Thermoline was the thermocompensated range, but now their other ranges also include thermocompensated models. Still, maybe they are heading towards selling a much larger volume of TC models which could only result in more TC watch choices* and this can't be a bad thing*.


It is for those who of us want to have one of everything.


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## ronalddheld

That problem is just a lack of money!


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## chris01

*Model**Case**Bracelet**Dial/Hands, etc.**Certina web site**DS-2 Chrono
ETA 251.264**41x12.54mm*C024.447.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack+Silver/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=5C024.447.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=2C024.447.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1C024.447.11.081.00SteelSteelAnthracite/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=3C024.447.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=8C024.447.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=7C024.447.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=6C024.447.44.051.00TitaniumTitaniumBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=9C024.448.11.031.00 COSCSteelSteelSilver+Black/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=4*DS-2 3-Hand
ETA F06.411**40x9.45mm*C024.410.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack/SilverC024.410.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/YellowC024.410.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/GreenC024.410.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/YellowC024.410.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/GreenC024.410.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Red*DS Podium Big Chrono
ETA 251.264**44x13.25mm*C001.647.11.057.00SteelSteelBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.16.037.00SteelLeatherSilver+Black/Silver+RedC001.647.16.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.17.057.00Black SteelRubberBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.22.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.27.057.00SteelRubberBlack/Silver+Red

I thought it would be interesting to compile a list of all the known PreciDrive models.
The first set of 9 are all shown on Certina's web site.
The next two sets of 6 are currently shown for sale on various mid-European sites.
So far, I haven't seen any evidence of a non-Certina PreciDrive, although surely ETA will be supplying other manufacturers (Swatch Group or otherwise).
Also, no info on the F06.411 - I hope that it has at least an independent hour hand, otherwise I'll give the 3-hander a miss.


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## VitekB

It looks like....I have joined your team today! Honestly, DS-1 looks too simple now :/


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## chris01

*Model**Case**Bracelet**Dial/Hands, etc.**Certina web site**DS-2 Chrono
ETA 251.264**41x12.54mm*C024.447.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack+Silver/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=5C024.447.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=2C024.447.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1C024.447.11.081.00SteelSteelAnthracite/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=3C024.447.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=8C024.447.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=7C024.447.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=6C024.447.44.051.00TitaniumTitaniumBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=9C024.448.11.031.00 COSCSteelSteelSilver+Black/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=4*DS-2 3-Hand
ETA F06.411**40x9.45mm*C024.410.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack/SilverC024.410.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/YellowC024.410.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/GreenC024.410.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/YellowC024.410.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/GreenC024.410.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Red*DS Podium Big Chrono
ETA 251.264**44x13.25mm*C001.647.11.057.00SteelSteelBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.16.037.00SteelLeatherSilver+Black/Silver+RedC001.647.16.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.17.057.00Black SteelRubberBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.22.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+RedC001.647.27.057.00SteelRubberBlack/Silver+Red*DS Eagle
ETA F07.411**43x13.00mm*C023.710.17.051.00Black SteelRubberBlack/WhiteC023.710.27.051.00SteelRubberBlack/WhiteC023.710.37.051.00Black Steel+GoldRubberBlack/White+Gold*DS Dream Ladies
ETA F07.411**38x7.47mm**diamond studded*C021.810.16.037.01SteelLeatherSilver/GoldC021.810.16.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/SilverC021.810.16.297.00SteelLeatherBrown/GoldC021.810.36.037.00Steel+GoldLeatherSilver/GoldC021.810.36.297.00Steel+GoldLeatherBrown/GoldC021.810.66.037.00SteelLeatherSilver/Silver

This list grows each time I do a search. I wonder if the plan is to replace all their current quartz movements with PowerDrive/PreciDrive.
Now there's two previously unknown 3-hand movements: F06.411 and F07.411. ​


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> This list grows each time I do a search. I wonder if the plan is to replace all their current quartz movements with PowerDrive/PreciDrive.
> Now there's two previously unknown 3-hand movements: F06.411 and F07.411. ​


Without checking Certina's website, do all these models have Precidrive movements? Many of the new calibers (i.e. for each caliber number) seem to have both Precidrive and Powerdrive versions. If Certina is going all Precidrive, the universe of TC will really grow significantly.


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## dicioccio

So it seems, Sabresoft, and, on top of that, all these watches seems to have affordable prices.


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## ronalddheld

The low prices makes me wonder about the true costs of other ETA TC movements.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> Without checking Certina's website, do all these models have Precidrive movements? Many of the new calibers (i.e. for each caliber number) seem to have both Precidrive and Powerdrive versions. If Certina is going all Precidrive, the universe of TC will really grow significantly.


The only watches on certina.com (as of yesterday) are the nine DS-2 chronos, where the only significant news is the all-titanium model. All the other watches I found by Googling "PreciDrive". I got a lot of Polish and Slovakian and some German and Swedish watch sellers. Each of the models was described as P/D and all the pictures I saw had P/D on the dial, like the DS-2. The ETA movement IDs were also from these sites. Nobody had a detailed list of functions, so still no idea whether perp. cal. and time-zone functions will make it into the cheaper models.

ETA is at present not showing these two movements at all. I did notice, on the data pages for some of the big list of new P/D movements, that the list of functions was pretty short and that I couldn't see + or - markings on the movement pictures. So perhaps the new movements offer a cheaper/simpler replacement for the older basic quartz. P/D is described by ETA somewhere as being 'programmable', so maybe they offer the ability to add/remove complications for different watches, while keeping the movement inventory small.

I get the feeling that the days of user rate-adjustment are slipping away!


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## dicioccio

ronalddheld said:


> The low prices makes me wonder about the true costs of other ETA TC movements.


Ronald, we have already discussed that a TC movement cost just a few dollars more BUT, leaving apart the R&D costs that no one of us can calculate, a lot of watches cost far less than their street price. But this would start a pointless discussion and a lot of flames so I'll close my mouth... The only thing I will say is that is all about marketing and to find al the things that drive and build the street price you have just to read some good books about marketing.


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## TimeSeeker

not a fan of the dial, but stll better than nothing.


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## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> not a fan of the dial, but stll better than nothing.


I'd like one to go with my Chrono, but for me the key question is whether they've included time zone (essential) and perp. cal. (very desirable).


----------



## Crazylegs

My limited edition turned up today. Very impressed with it. So thanks to OP Chris01 for starting this thread and making me aware of this watch and for passing on the AD details. Ace watch, awesome customer service. Happy days.


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## artec

Interesting...for me the perpetual calendar and independent hour hand adjustment are essential, while the world time zones are acceptable only if they're on the back! They clearly aren't on the dial or the bezel, but I don't know about the other two features. 
Actually, I'm not a fan of the fake carbon fibre dial, either.
Does anyone know?


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## chris01

artec said:


> Interesting...for me the perpetual calendar and independent hour hand adjustment are essential, while the world time zones are acceptable only if they're on the back! They clearly aren't on the dial or the bezel, but I don't know about the other two features.
> Actually, I'm not a fan of the fake carbon fibre dial, either.
> Does anyone know?


The problem at present is that there is no useful information anywhere. I have heard that there may be a more official release of some of these new models at the beginning of July.

Just to be clear, by "time zone feature" I was referring to independent hour hand. The former term is how Certina describe it on the DS-2. I don't greatly care about world time. On the RCs that we were discussing elsewhere, world time is the only practical use for an adjustable hour hand, since DST is automatic.


----------



## chris01

Crazylegs said:


> My limited edition turned up today. Very impressed with it. So thanks to OP Chris01 for starting this thread and making me aware of this watch and for passing on the AD details. Ace watch, awesome customer service. Happy days.


Excellent result. I hope you're going to enjoy it. Do let us know how well it performs.


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## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> Just to be clear, by "time zone feature" I was referring to independent hour hand. The former term is how Certina describe it on the DS-2. I don't greatly care about world time. On the RCs that we were discussing elsewhere, world time is the only practical use for an adjustable hour hand, since DST is automatic.


That is a useful feature, which of course my DS2, Maurice Lacroix and ChristopherWard C70 all have. A little less convenient for adjusting dates at the end of short months (requiring spinning the hour hand around 24 hours per date needing advancing, which is usually only once, but at the end of a regular February requiring 72 hours). This is not a huge deal, but definitely not quite as quick as a quick set date. The Sinn UX has a quick set date, but requires resetting the watch on a time zone or DST change, as the hour and minute hands have to be moved, and the hacking seconds hand stops while you are doing this. That's why in my testing the UX only lasts about 270 days (or so) before having to restart the test.

The one downside to the quick change hour hand is that while it works really well for full hour time zones, those pesky 1/2 and worse yet 1/4 hour time zones still require resetting the watch, assuming that you can't tolerate the seconds of inaccuracy that you induce with the hacking second hand stopped while you are moving the minute hand. Again not a big deal if you have a reference source at hand, but if you are changing your watch between flights and have no reference source handy you will have undefined inaccuracy that will bug you if you suffer from OCD.

My best watches for global travel are the Seiko Astron, Citizen Skyhawk AT, and the Breitling Airwolf Raven. The Astron knows about all 39 time zones, but does need to have DST set manually as the Satellites, unlike the radio stations, do not carry DST info. The Skyhawk has 43 cities built in, covering 29 time zones, but with the user settable time zone which can be set to the 1/4 hour it can handle the missing 2 full hour, 5 half hour and 3 quarter hour time zones. It does already recognize 5 half hour time zones. The Airwolf has a second time feature (T2) which can be set independently of T1, but can only be viewed on the digital display as the T1 and analogue hands are linked (in deed setting the hands has to be done by setting T1).

Next best is my Casio ProTrek PRW5100-1, which handles 29 time zones and then my Casio G-Shock GW3500B-1A, which handles 29 time zones (although not the same 29 zones), and also my Citizen World Time AT (25), Citizen Attesa ATD53-3081 (26), and Citizen Satellite Wave-Air (26). For all of these watches, missing time zones require manual setting. This can be truly frustrating when for example in Newfoundland (UTC -3.5H) you are within signal range of Denver for a sync, but the closest zone that the watch recognizes is Atlantic Time (UTC -4H), and so you can't use the sync or each morning your watch would be off by 1/2 hour local time. The G-Shock would work there though as it alone among the five does recognize Newfoundland Time.

It is actually quite amazing that watches designed by such intelligent people (you probably have to be pretty smart to figure this stuff out) can have such stupid limitations (probably courtesy of the product planning/marketing folks). It should be totally a non-brainer with ana-digi models to incorporate all 39 time zones (especially if they use time offsets rather than 3 letter city codes), and even for the time zones around the dial, instead of city codes, just display time offsets from UTC (actually the Astron does both).


----------



## zeta

I've got back the Certina DS2 I sent back to Certina for fixing, since it drifted about -36 SPY when worn and -10 SPY in room temp (23 C). They returned four WITSCHI results and claimed that the watch keeped -0.6 seconds per month ~ -7 SPY. This is in accordance with the last WITSCHI result below, but the first three are about -1.5 seconds per month ~ -18 SPY. When I measure it myself after I got it back I get -20 SPY in a room temperature of about 26-27 C. There doesn't seem to be any difference from how it was before I sent it. Below is the WITSCHI results I got back from Certina (all from 25 C temperature).









The first three results are consistent with my result now (-18 SPY in 25 C, I get -20 SPY in 26-27 C). The last result seems different. Does anybody have any more input on what the otherparameters mean? Does "inhibition" change with temperature in a TC quartz?


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> I've got back the Certina DS2 I sent back to Certina for fixing, since it drifted about -36 SPY when worn and -10 SPY in room temp (23 C). They returned four WITSCHI results and claimed that the watch keeped -0.6 seconds per month ~ -7 SPY. This is in accordance with the last WITSCHI result below, but the first three are about -1.5 seconds per month ~ -18 SPY. When I measure it myself after I got it back I get -20 SPY in a room temperature of about 26-27 C. There doesn't seem to be any difference from how it was before I sent it. Below is the WITSCHI results I got back from Certina (all from 25 C temperature).
> 
> View attachment 1550708
> 
> 
> The first three results are consistent with my result now (-18 SPY in 25 C, I get -20 SPY in 26-27 C). The last result seems different. Does anybody have any more input on what the otherparameters mean? Does "inhibition" change with temperature in a TC quartz?


Inhibition is the period one is supposed to measure over.
That period is 960 seconds according to the ETA 251.264 manual.

Those measurements are over a shorter period and are meaningless.

Interesting to see that they tried 10 seconds and then 60.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Inhibition is the period one is supposed to measure over.
> That period is 960 seconds according to the ETA 251.264 manual.
> 
> Those measurements are over a shorter period and are meaningless.
> 
> Interesting to see that they tried 10 seconds and then 60.


Agreed. There are only 2 ways to avoid the inhibition period screwing up the results:

1. Do the timing over exactly 960 seconds.
2. Take multiple consecutive measurements over shorter periods, and use the average.


----------



## zeta

Actually, at the top it says "time" 480s and 960s. Sure that is not the duration of the test? Inhibition sounds more like what corrects the quartz default speed ("quartz" parameter?)

What is "Quartz" and "Drive level" btw?


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> Actually, at the top it says "time" 480s and 960s. Sure that is not the duration of the test? Inhibition sounds more like what corrects the quartz default speed ("quartz" parameter?)
> 
> What is "Quartz" and "Drive level" btw?


http://www.witschi.com/download/leaflet_analyzerQ1.pdf

You could be right there.

The inhibition of 10 or 60 seconds is then what the machine detects. But it is not further used.

Strange then that the first two tests were set to 480 seconds.

Quartz is the raw frequency of the crystal: Not relevant here.

Drive level is the amount of energy the stepper motor is getting at the moment: Not relevant either.

It looks that they claim they have halved the rate in the last two weeks.
The before and after show -1.50 and -0.6 s/m.

You don't agree with that value?


----------



## sean0810

My Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watch also went back to Swatch, because timekeeping was 24spy. After being examined I was informed:

THE WATCH'S TIMEKEEPING IS NOT WITHIN PUBLISHED TOLERANCE
THE ELECTRONIC MODULE IS FAULTY

The estimate listed the following service/parts (to be provided under warranty):

Full service chrono quartz
CASE BACK GASKET Ø35.50 X 0.61 X 0.95 
SPRING BAR SST LUG 22 BODYØ1.8 Ø0.9/1.0 
QUARTZ MOVEMENT CAL. 251.264 H1/6H 
STEEL CROWN
STEEL PUSHER
CRYSTAL GASKET Ø 35.50X0.57X0.85

It has since been returned to me after a long wait, and though it is too early to be certain, timekeeping does appear much improved. Moreover, the watch has polished almost back to new condition and they put in a new battery. All in all i am quite impressed at the level of service I received from Swatch.


----------



## zeta

> http://www.witschi.com/download/leaflet_analyzerQ1.pdf
> 
> You could be right there.
> 
> The inhibition of 10 or 60 seconds is then what the machine detects. But it is not further used.
> 
> Strange then that the first two tests were set to 480 seconds.
> 
> Quartz is the raw frequency of the crystal: Not relevant here.
> 
> Drive level is the amount of energy the stepper motor is getting at the moment: Not relevant either.
> 
> It looks that they claim they have halved the rate in the last two weeks.
> The before and after show -1.50 and -0.6 s/m.
> 
> You don't agree with that value?


No, it seems the same as before I sent it. In (27C) room temperature about -20 SPY. When worn much more, maybe -35 SPY. Strange that the last measurement has a different Quartz - (frequency of the crystal). Seems like the last measurement is from another watch.


----------



## Hans Moleman

zeta said:


> No, it seems the same as before I sent it. In (27C) room temperature about -20 SPY. When worn much more, maybe -35 SPY. Strange that the last measurement has a different Quartz - (frequency of the crystal). Seems like the last measurement is from another watch.


Sorry that this is such a battle.

I don't understand that the quartz frequency now shows as zero and that someone thought that that was important enough to highlight it!

The real achievement lies in the rate reduction from -1.5 to -0.6.

But if that does not correspond with what you see, them something else has gone wrong.
I had hoped that the two weeks was used to see how the watch behaved over that period. To see it losing time without using the Witschi.


----------



## chris01

chris01 said:


> *Model**Case**Bracelet**Dial/Hands, etc.**Certina web site**DS-2 Chrono
> ETA 251.264**41x12.54mm*C024.447.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack+Silver/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=5C024.447.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=2C024.447.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1C024.447.11.081.00SteelSteelAnthracite/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=3C024.447.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=8C024.447.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=7C024.447.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=6C024.447.44.051.00TitaniumTitaniumBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=9C024.448.11.031.00 COSCSteelSteelSilver+Black/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=4*DS-2 3-Hand
> ETA F06.411**40x9.45mm*C024.410.11.051.00SteelSteelBlack/Silverhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=12C024.410.11.051.01SteelSteelBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=14C024.410.11.051.02SteelSteelBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=10C024.410.16.051.01SteelLeatherBlack/Yellowhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=15C024.410.16.051.02SteelLeatherBlack/Greenhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=11C024.410.16.051.03SteelLeatherBlack/Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=13*DS Podium Big Chrono
> ETA 251.264**44x13.25mm*C001.647.11.057.00SteelSteelBlack/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=1C001.647.16.037.00SteelLeatherSilver+Black/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=6C001.647.16.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=3C001.647.17.057.00Black SteelRubberBlack/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=2C001.647.22.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=4C001.647.27.057.00SteelRubberBlack/Silver+Redhttp://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-podium-big-size-chronograph#m=5*DS Eagle
> ETA F07.411**43x13.00mm*C023.710.17.051.00Black SteelRubberBlack/Whitehttp://www.certina.com/collection/ds-eagle#m=3C023.710.27.051.00SteelRubberBlack/Whitehttp://www.certina.com/collection/ds-eagle#m=2C023.710.37.051.00Black Steel+GoldRubberBlack/White+Goldhttp://www.certina.com/collection/ds-eagle#m=1*DS Dream Ladies
> ETA F07.411**38x7.47mm**diamond studded*C021.810.16.037.01SteelLeatherSilver/GoldC021.810.16.057.00SteelLeatherBlack/SilverC021.810.16.297.00SteelLeatherBrown/GoldC021.810.36.037.00Steel+GoldLeatherSilver/GoldC021.810.36.297.00Steel+GoldLeatherBrown/GoldC021.810.66.037.00SteelLeatherSilver/Silver
> 
> This list grows each time I do a search. I wonder if the plan is to replace all their current quartz movements with PowerDrive/PreciDrive.
> Now there's two previously unknown 3-hand movements: F06.411 and F07.411. ​


Most of the new models are now on the Certina web site. No detailed info, of course, and nothing on the new movements from ETA, either.


----------



## Hansur

chris01 said:


> Most of the new models are now on the Certina web site. No detailed info, of course, and nothing on the new movements from ETA, either.


Are not the two F-movements from the low-end trendline?

ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
and
ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: Trendline

Edit: Just guessing from the movement name starting with an F..


----------



## chris01

Hansur said:


> Are not the two F-movements from the low-end trendline?
> 
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
> and
> ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: Trendline
> 
> Edit: Just guessing from the movement name starting with an F..


Yes, that would appear to be likely. Still no information on useful features - especially independent hour hand and perp. cal. - but the three new watches are definitely marked PreciDrive.


----------



## zharik

Hello!
I received my new three hand Certina DS-2 last week. I have chosen it because of simple design and PreciDrive movement. I really like accurate watches. So, I am very interested in technical details about F06.411. Any new information?


----------



## TimeSeeker

zharik said:


> Hello!
> I received my new three hand Certina DS-2 last week. I have chosen it because of simple design and PreciDrive movement. I really like accurate watches. So, I am very interested in technical details about F06.411. Any new information?
> View attachment 1604376


Congrats, looks great!
Does it have a perpetual calendar?


----------



## zharik

TimeSeeker said:


> Congrats, looks great!
> Does it have a perpetual calendar?


I don't know. There is no any information about this movement. I would say it doesn't have perpetual calendar. We will understand at the end of september;-)


----------



## ronalddheld

No manual came with the watch?


----------



## zharik

ronalddheld said:


> No manual came with the watch?


Sure, there was one. But this is standard Certina's manual for analog watches: mechanical, quartz and autoquartz. Only general information: DS-concept, winding, setting, care&maintenance etc. Nothing about technical details. And on the official site is the same manual. This is standard practice for Certina.
So, I don't have detailed information about exactly this watches and this movement. Even the type of movement I've learned from this forum.


----------



## TimeSeeker

zharik said:


> Sure, there was one. But this is standard Certina's manual for analog watches: mechanical, quartz and autoquartz. Only general information


My DS2 Precidrive chrono manual is very detailed, so I'm not sure about the manuals being standard unless the watch is normal quartz?


----------



## chris01

zharik said:


> I don't know. There is no any information about this movement. I would say it doesn't have perpetual calendar. We will understand at the end of september;-)


I understand that problem, but even without a decent manual you should be able to check if you can adjust the hour hand without stopping the watch. We need to know!


----------



## zharik

chris01 said:


> I understand that problem, but even without a decent manual you should be able to check if you can adjust the hour hand without stopping the watch. We need to know!


No, it is not possible. I have 3 positions of the crown: 1) not pulled out; 2) quick adjustment of date; 3) adjustment of time. In the third position the second hand is stoped, so it is possible to adjust time accuratly.
I am checking the watches everyday from the 10th of august using Time Calibrator for Android as reference. And the watches are going accurately.

If you need any additional info to research something, please ask. I am very interested in understanding this PreciDrive movements.


----------



## TimeSeeker

zharik said:


> *No, it is not possible*. I have 3 positions of the crown: 1) not pulled out; 2) quick adjustment of date; 3) adjustment of time. In the third position the second hand is stoped, so it is possible to adjust time accuratly.


That's a deal breaker for me...


----------



## chris01

TimeSeeker said:


> That's a deal breaker for me...


Same here. What a waste of a good idea.


----------



## TimeSeeker

BTW, my DS2 Chrono LE is now at -5 seconds since January 7 2014
Thanks Chris for your help. Chris did give me the right software to calculate everything, but after a HDD crash, it all went to that place above where I guess all man made devices go.
If it helps, it has continued to lose time since May, when it was at -4.
Summer temps don't matter apparently. It is still well within the +-10 spy specs, but I yet find myself disappointed.


----------



## Sabresoft

I believe that none of the ETA TC calibres have perpetual date except for the Ana-digi models.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> I believe that none of the ETA TC calibres have perpetual date except for the Ana-digi models.


This appears to be true for all the chrono movements. The older 3-hand Perpetual Calendar models (Longines & Omega) obviously are a worthy exception. The ana-digi Aerospace (based on ETA) has only a 4-year calendar.


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> This appears to be true for all the chrono movements. The older 3-hand Perpetual Calendar models (Longines & Omega) obviously are a worthy exception. The ana-digi Aerospace (based on ETA) has only a 4-year calendar.


4 year calendar beats none but pepetual would be preferred.


----------



## Sabresoft

ronalddheld said:


> 4 year calendar beats none but pepetual would be preferred.


Well a 4 year calendar only needs correcting on a non-millennial century year, so it certainly wouldn't be an issue in my lifetime, and most perpetuals only work till around 2100 anyway, so either way I don't see a problem.

The next grade down is the annual calendar which only needs correcting in a leap year.


----------



## webvan

Actually a so-called "4 year calendar" needs to be reset every 4 years as the name implies (it has 29 days for February), what you describe is an actual "perpetual calendar". I'm not aware of any "perpetual calendars" that will deal properly with year 2100?


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> Actually a so-called "4 year calendar" needs to be reset every 4 years as the name implies (it has 29 days for February), what you describe is an actual "perpetual calendar". I'm not aware of any "perpetual calendars" that will deal properly with year 2100?


We're just getting into semantics here. Whatever you call it, the Aerospace needs manual intervention every Feb 29. As for 2100, I don't think that even most RCs are likely to handle that. Probably some pure digitals will be fine. Since I won't be around, i couldn't give a ****. 

What does make me angry/depressed/baffled is ETA developing this new TC technology and being too lazy to include TZ in every movement.


----------



## webvan

Not semantics, I was just pointing out that a "4 year calendar" needs an intervention every 4 years unlike what was stated in the previous message.

But yes, no TZ on a TC movement in 2014 is ridiculous when it was available in 1987 on the 1441 and just after that on the 1438 that replaced it.


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> We're just getting into semantics here. Whatever you call it, the Aerospace needs manual intervention every Feb 29. As for 2100, I don't think that even most RCs are likely to handle that. Probably some pure digitals will be fine. Since I won't be around, i couldn't give a ****.
> 
> What does make me angry/depressed/baffled is ETA developing this new TC technology and being too lazy to include TZ in every movement.


More likely too cheap for TZ and DST.


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> Not semantics, I was just pointing out that a "4 year calendar" needs an intervention every 4 years unlike what was stated in the previous message.
> 
> But yes, no TZ on a TC movement in 2014 is ridiculous when it was available in 1987 on the 1441 and just after that on the 1438 that replaced it.


Sure. No wish to start an argument here!

My 1986 Ti VHP had TZ, and I think it was probably available on earlier Longines maybe as far back as 1984.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> More likely too cheap for TZ and DST.


But not too cheap to provide +/- 10 spy? It just seems like a lack of any real understanding of the meaning of long-term accuracy.


----------



## ronalddheld

Isn't accuracy more a business marketing gimmick versus aiding to the HAQer?


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> We're just getting into semantics here. Whatever you call it, the Aerospace needs manual intervention every Feb 29. As for 2100, I don't think that even most RCs are likely to handle that. Probably some pure digitals will be fine. Since I won't be around, i couldn't give a ****.


 All my Ana-digi RC watches that I have (and my older non-RC Skyhawk, and Breitling Airwolf, I believe) while showing a four digit year (i.e. 2014) is actually only tracking a 2 digit year (14). I tested this on my old Skyhawk, by setting it to December 31, 2099 at close to midnight, and watched it roll over to Jan 1, 2000!


----------



## Sabresoft

Sabresoft said:


> All my Ana-digi RC watches that I have (and my older non-RC Skyhawk, and Breitling Airwolf, I believe) while showing a four digit year (i.e. 2014) is actually only tracking a 2 digit year (14). I tested this on my old Skyhawk, by setting it to December 31, 2099 at close to midnight, and watched it roll over to Jan 1, 2000!


I checked the manual for my Satellite Wave-Air, and it uses a leap year plus 3 years method, then goes back to a leap year. Once set it will effectively work until 2100. After that I suspect that you would have to reset in 2100 (as it won't be a leap year), and again in 2101 so that it will be the first year in a 4 year no-no-no-yes leap year cycle. I'll never know, because I doubt that I'll live to 146!

I imagine that all my analog RC watches probably use the same method. I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that when these watches sync (satellite/RC) they get a signal that probably communicates date, month, and day-of-the week. As to year, they probably receive the actual year, but for the watches that don't have the actual year (i.e. the non-Ana-digis) the syncing circuit probably converts that year to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year in the four year leap year cycle.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Sabresoft said:


> I checked the manual for my Satellite Wave-Air, and it uses a leap year plus 3 years method, then goes back to a leap year. Once set it will effectively work until 2100. After that I suspect that you would have to reset in 2100 (as it won't be a leap year), and again in 2101 so that it will be the first year in a 4 year no-no-no-yes leap year cycle. I'll never know, because I doubt that I'll live to 146!
> 
> I imagine that all my analog RC watches probably use the same method. I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that when these watches sync (satellite/RC) they get a signal that probably communicates date, month, and day-of-the week. As to year, they probably receive the actual year, but for the watches that don't have the actual year (i.e. the non-Ana-digis) the syncing circuit probably converts that year to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th year in the four year leap year cycle.


Wikipedia has information about what WWVB sends in its time signals.

Year in 99 format and leap year information.

It surprises me that no century is passed.


----------



## Sabresoft

While I appreciate the fast hour setting feature that the ETA calibres use for the chronograph models (Maurice Lacroix Miros, Christopher Ward C70, and Certina DS2), it is still not perfect. It can quickly adjust for DST on/off and even for short months, but it only works on whole hour time zones, so if you visit a 1/2 hour time zone you'll have to adjust the minute hand, and reset the hacking seconds hand. 

What annoys me is the fact that most multi-time zone watches don't recognize all 39 time zones. And each one of mine that doesn't have all 39 are missing different time zones. Only 3 of my watches can truly be considered global travelers. The Astron (all 39) and the Skyhawks (less than 39, but a user settable extra zone that can be set to the 1/4 hour allowing effectively for all 39). Four of mine won't work in all provinces of my country (they are missing the Newfoundland time zone).


----------



## Sabresoft

Hans Moleman said:


> Wikipedia has information about what WWVB sends in its time signals.
> 
> Year in 99 format and leap year information.
> 
> It surprises me that no century is passed.


I read the WWVB link, which indicates that the local clock adjusts for DST, but my watches automatically adjust for DST when they sync, so I wonder if they also send DST on/off info, because with changing DST rules, it would be virtually impossible to hard code this feature.

As to no century data, shades of Y2K all over again! I guess we'll never learn.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Sabresoft said:


> I read the WWVB link, which indicates that the local clock adjusts for DST, but my watches automatically adjust for DST when they sync, so I wonder if they also send DST on/off info, because with changing DST rules, it would be virtually impossible to hard code this feature.
> 
> As to no century data, shades of Y2K all over again! I guess we'll never learn.


As I read it, bit 57 and 58 are indicators for DST. IMHO the most useful feature in a RC watch.

I don't understand that either. Why not do a complete job and send century and year? You know that when you leave something out, it will bite you, sooner or later.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> While I appreciate the fast hour setting feature that the ETA calibres use for the chronograph models (Maurice Lacroix Miros, Christopher Ward C70, and Certina DS2), it is still not perfect. It can quickly adjust for DST on/off and even for short months, but it only works on whole hour time zones, so if you visit a 1/2 hour time zone you'll have to adjust the minute hand, and reset the hacking seconds hand.


I recognise that you have a bit of an issue with 30-min time zones: something that most people are happy not to have to think about! If you want a quick-adjust feature you'll have to work out how to implement an independent minute hand in addition to the hour hand. Obviously this _*could *_be done for multi-motor complicated watches like the RCs with built-in time zone handing but it's a bit beyond practicable in a simple 3-hander. Perhaps an ana-digi, where you could easily adjust the H & M on the LCD then hit a button to bring the hands into line, keeping the seconds ticking away undisturbed in the background. However, this is getting a bit too close to the Aerospace, a watch that I have rejected as an ergonomic failure.


----------



## seikokiller

zharik said:


> Hello!
> I received my new three hand Certina DS-2 last week. I have chosen it because of simple design and PreciDrive movement. I really like accurate watches. So, I am very interested in technical details about F06.411. Any new information?
> View attachment 1604376


Hello.

Could you tell me, does this model also have a snap on case back, or have certina gone with a screw down case back here?


----------



## alexandrov

*Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

Hi,
Yesterday at the local AD I've seen new (to me at least) certinas with Precidrive movements:
DS-2 | Certina








After a search over internet I've found that this three hand movement is ETA F06.411 but there are any specifications. Is it a HAQ?


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



alexandrov said:


> Hi,
> Yesterday at the local AD I've seen new (to me at least) certinas with Precidrive movements:
> DS-2 | Certina
> After a search over internet I've found that this three hand movement is ETA F06.411 but there are any specifications. Is it a HAQ?


Yes, it's an HAQ (PreciDrive) but that's about all we know. It _*appears *_that it doesn't have a perpetual calendar or an independently-adjustable hour hand.

More specs:
All models are s/steel case & bracelet
10 bar WR
Sapphire crystal with AR
PreciDrive movement with battery EOL indication and (probably) +/-10 SPY
Size (maybe) 40 x 9.45 mm


----------



## SirPaulGerman

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



alexandrov said:


> Hi,
> Yesterday at the local AD I've seen new (to me at least) certinas with Precidrive movements:
> DS-2 | Certina
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After a search over internet I've found that this three hand movement is ETA F06.411 but there are any specifications. Is it a HAQ?


what was the price ?


----------



## yue

chris01 said:


> This is a long item but I think it marks a very significant event in the world of HAQ. We have a brand-new TC movement - the ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive - installed in a brand-new watch from a long-established Swatch Group watch manufacturer. Unlike all the other announcements of the last year or so, that have only a very limited (albeit exciting) appeal, like the Hoptroff CSAC watch, or are still apparently vapourware, like AtomicTime and Morgenwerk, this one is real and is currently being shipped to retailers at a very reasonable price.
> 
> Certina's effort in announcing and publicising their new watch, after the initial press releases, has been feeble and confusing, with retailers and their distributors having very little information and even Certina's web site has almost no useful information. There are currently six models with cosmetic variations and they are shown here:
> certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1
> It appears that they all have the TC movement but only the more expensive LE version has a COSC certificate (and a fancy box).
> 
> My recently departed, and not greatly missed, Aerospace has left an HAQ-sized gap, just in time to receive my own Certina and I hope the photos give a good idea of the whole package. If you want wrist shots, or a photo of the movement, then you'll have to buy your own.
> 
> View attachment 1278880
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278881
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278883
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278884
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278885
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278886
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278887
> 
> 
> *Chronograph Indications*
> View attachment 1278889
> 
> 
> *Detailed specification (from Certina and my own watch)*
> 
> 
> Model number: C024.447.11.081.00
> Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year
> Battery life: more than 2 years (silver oxide 394/SR936SW), EOL indication
> Functions: Centre hour & minute hands, small-second, date,
> time-zone (hour hand setting is independent),
> date adjustment using hour hand, NO perpetual calendar
> Chronograph: Centre 1-second hand with 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second graduations,
> runs for first minute, subsequently displayed when chronograph is stopped
> Centre 60-second hand
> Small 30-minute and 12-hour dials
> Case: Brushed/polished 316L stainless steel
> 41mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, lug width 22 mm
> Aluminium bezel with tachymeter scale
> Dial: Anthracite with polished hands and nickelled indices
> Sub-dials black with textured finish
> Superluminova on hour & minute hands and hour markers
> See the Certina link for other variations
> Water resistance: to 10 bar (100m)
> Crystal: Sapphire crystal, domed, with inner anti-reflective coating
> Watch strap: Three-row 316L stainless steel (brushed/polished)
> with twin push-button butterfly buckle
> Removable links with split-pin fixings
> Dimensions: Case 41 mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, 22 mm lug width, 51 mm lug-to-lug
> Weight of watch with full bracelet 150 g
> Maximum wrist circumference of watch + bracelet 21.5 cm
> Bracelet 22 mm wide, tapering to 19 mm,with removable links 7 mm (x2) and 10 mm (x5)
> Warranty: Two year international warranty, service through normal SG Group centres
> *
> A brief initial review*
> 
> First impressions are that this is a very nicely designed and finished piece, quite 'normal' in appearance. The case has a good mix of brushed and polished sections, as does the bracelet, although I fear that the large polished centre links will soon show scuffs and scratches. The bracelet was quite easily adjusted to size with two sizes of link, and there are helpful arrow markings on the bracelet to avoid the disaster of attempting to insert or remove the split pins in the wrong direction. I would have liked to see micro-adjustment but this is probably impossible with a butterfly fastening.
> 
> Rather surprisingly for a 100m WR watch, the back is pressed in rather than screwed in. However, Certina make a big deal of their DS (Double Security) Concept, and there is a relief of a turtle on the back, so I have to assume that they know what they're doing! It does mean that I'm in no hurry to have a peek at the movement.
> 
> On the wrist it's quite comfortable and doesn't feel too big. It's on the upper size limit for my taste, and I prefer titanium for lightness, but it's OK. Absence of a rotating bezel is a major plus point for me.
> 
> Readability is good, helped by the slightly domed crystal, with internal AR, that avoids the problem with a flat crystal of the dial disappearing behind one large reflection. In the absence of an outer AR coating this is good enough. The dial has a very subtle sunburst effect for the main dark grey part, with black sub-dials that have a raised annular ring pattern.
> 
> Operation is perfectly straightforward, with all the functions working as expected. The independent hour hand is for me a mandatory feature for any HAQ . Perpetual calendar would have been nice but it seems unachievable with a chronograph. You have to turn the hour hand through 24 hours to change the date (works in both directions). Lume seems adequate but I haven't tried an 05:00 time check yet.
> 
> The chrono buttons work smoothly but I must make a comment about the 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second feature. This was greatly hyped in the initial press releases, as if it's a must-have unique feature. To me it's a complete nonsense. Trying to read an elapsed time that requires reference to 4 separate hands (12-hour and 30-minute sub-dials, plus 60-second and 1-second main hands) is a serious test of one's patience. Omitting the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] hand would give a perfectly serviceable 1-second stopwatch. If you need sub-second resolution then any cheap digital stopwatch is infinitely better.
> 
> The user manual is perfectly adequate, being written in good English (plus 16 other languages) and contains everything you need to know on 12 tiny pages. This includes simple instructions for resetting the chrono hands, which was necessary when my watch arrived.
> 
> So, my initial conclusion is that I am very pleased with this attractive watch at an attractive price. I cannot understand why Christopher Ward doesn't do something similar with sensibly-priced COSC quartz, instead of their bizarre special editions that are commemorative of nothing very significant.
> 
> I am now starting my test of accuracy and will report as soon as the SPY value starts to settle down. +/-10 SPY is not usually a problem for ETA TC movements.
> 
> I'll be happy to attempt to answer any questions.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## alexandrov

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

400 euro without negotiations. Usually it drops 10-15% here


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

Any reason why this thread should not be merged into the main Certina precidrive chronograph thread?


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



ronalddheld said:


> Any reason why this thread should not be merged into the main Certina precidrive chronograph thread?


Seems a good idea.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

Went to a Certina store in Manhattan yesterday. i did not see ant DS2s or any TC watches there in the display case.


----------



## bish31

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

Hello.

Could someone please give me some information about this watch.

I have just recieved one for Christmas, the one with the green on the face. 
DS-2 ChronoRef.: C024.447.11.051.02

http://www.certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2-chrono#m=1

On setting the time and date i have noticed that the crown does not screw closed and just keeps turning, even when pushed right in. Is this normal?

As its a waterproof watch i would have thought the crown screwd tightly closed.

Any help much appreicated.

Many thanks


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



bish31 said:


> Hello.
> 
> Could someone please give me some information about this watch.
> 
> I have just recieved one for Christmas, the one with the green on the face.
> *DS-2 Chrono*
> 
> Ref.: C024.447.11.051.02
> 
> DS-2 Chrono | Certina
> 
> On setting the time and date i have noticed that the crown does not screw closed and just keeps turning, even when pushed right in. Is this normal?
> 
> As its a waterproof watch i would have thought the crown screwd tightly closed.
> 
> Any help much appreicated.
> 
> Many thanks


Your watch is working correctly. Have you read the instruction book? For a watch that is water resistant to 10 bar / 100 m it's not necessarily required to have a screw-down crown. I'd be more concerned about operating the crown or the chrono pushers under water. As mine never gets wet I can be quite relaxed about this. Enjoy your excellent Christmas present!


----------



## Chuck Vezlo

*Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph*



ronalddheld said:


> Any reason why this thread should not be merged into the main Certina precidrive chronograph thread?





chris01 said:


> Seems a good idea.


If someone posted a link if think it would be appreciated. I searched Main forum for "PreciDrive" but did not find the thread.

Thanks in advance.

Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

Chuck Vezlo said:


> If someone posted a link if think it would be appreciated. I searched Main forum for "PreciDrive" but did not find the thread.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Skickas från min iPhone via Tapatalk


I think you'll find that, with 365 posts, this is the main PD thread. Apart from the two Certina DS-2 watches there are no other PD watches that have been discussed in the HAQ forum.


----------



## FrozenTime

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

I have the same watch and it's not a screw down crown.
I think the Certina DS-2 is tremendous value for money, wear it in good health.


----------



## Colourise

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*

Hi

I am new to this forum and have been avidly reading through all the threads about this watch.

I have now ordered one from the dealer as recommended by chris01.

Thanks chris01 for all your help and advice.

I now will have to wait for delivery (7-10 days, as the dealer is waiting for stock)

I was watching the video on the Certina web site which shows the model with the green hand (Precidrive model) and superimposed on the picture was text next to the word "Precidrive", which stated "+-/ 10" seconds per year. This was about 1min 2secs in.

Does anybody know whether this spec. is quoted anywhere else in Certina's website or other literature.

thanks


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



Colourise said:


> Hi
> 
> I am new to this forum and have been avidly reading through all the threads about this watch.
> 
> I have now ordered one from the dealer as recommended by chris01.
> 
> Thanks chris01 for all your help and advice.
> 
> I now will have to wait for delivery (7-10 days, as the dealer is waiting for stock)
> 
> I was watching the video on the Certina web site which shows the model with the green hand (Precidrive model) and superimposed on the picture was text next to the word "Precidrive", which stated "+-/ 10" seconds per year. This was about 1min 2secs in.
> 
> Does anybody know whether this spec. is quoted anywhere else in Certina's website or other literature.
> 
> thanks


You're welcome! Let us know all about it when it arrives.

Some links for you:

ETA's web page about the new PowerDrive and PreciDrive movements - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
This only talks about COSC performance, not 10 SPY.

ETA's web page about the 251.264 movement - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.264 PreciDrive
Then follow the Technical Communication link to the Technical Documents page, select the calibre 251.264 and download the first PDF file. This gives you the basic operating instructions for the movement. Unfortunately the detailed tech info document, which didn't mention precision or how to calibrate the movement, has disappeared from this page. Note that the movement of interest is the 251.264 CEN (CENTIEME, with 1/100 sec chrono). The DIXIEME (1/10 sec chrono) is not used in the DS-2.

Certina's documentation page - User Manuals | Certina
Select "Quartz Chronographs PRECIDRIVE" and download the user manual. 
Or try this direct link - http://www.certina.com/sites/default/files/user_manuals/352-en.pdf
Page 4 refers to annual rate.


----------



## Colourise

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



chris01 said:


> You're welcome! Let us know all about it when it arrives.
> 
> Some links for you:
> 
> ETA's web page about the new PowerDrive and PreciDrive movements - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
> This only talks about COSC performance, not 10 SPY.
> 
> ETA's web page about the 251.264 movement - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.264 PreciDrive
> Then follow the Technical Communication link to the Technical Documents page, select the calibre 251.264 and download the first PDF file. This gives you the basic operating instructions for the movement. Unfortunately the detailed tech info document, which didn't mention precision or how to calibrate the movement, has disappeared from this page. Note that the movement of interest is the 251.264 CEN (CENTIEME, with 1/100 sec chrono). The DIXIEME (1/10 sec chrono) is not used in the DS-2.
> 
> Certina's documentation page - User Manuals | Certina
> Select "Quartz Chronographs PRECIDRIVE" and download the user manual.
> Or try this direct link - http://www.certina.com/sites/default/files/user_manuals/352-en.pdf
> Page 4 refers to annual rate.


Thanks once again chris01 for the links


----------



## igna

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



chris01 said:


> You're welcome! Let us know all about it when it arrives.
> 
> Some links for you:
> 
> ETA's web page about the new PowerDrive and PreciDrive movements - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: New Technologies
> This only talks about COSC performance, not 10 SPY.
> 
> ETA's web page about the 251.264 movement - ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse: 251.264 PreciDrive
> Then follow the Technical Communication link to the Technical Documents page, select the calibre 251.264 and download the first PDF file. This gives you the basic operating instructions for the movement. Unfortunately the detailed tech info document, which didn't mention precision or how to calibrate the movement, has disappeared from this page. Note that the movement of interest is the 251.264 CEN (CENTIEME, with 1/100 sec chrono). The DIXIEME (1/10 sec chrono) is not used in the DS-2.
> 
> Certina's documentation page - User Manuals | Certina
> Select "Quartz Chronographs PRECIDRIVE" and download the user manual.
> Or try this direct link - http://www.certina.com/sites/default/files/user_manuals/352-en.pdf
> Page 4 refers to annual rate.


Very good informative links.

Still I'm having trouble with Certina use of the "PreciDrive" term, because there are several models (DS and DS2) with their dials showing "PreciDrive" and they actually are not a COSC quatz, for example:

DS-2 | Certina

On top of that we have "PowerDrive" term, very similar looking term, making easy to bring more confusion. 

Regards.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



Colourise said:


> I am new to this forum and have been avidly reading through all the threads about this watch.
> 
> I have now ordered one from the dealer as recommended by chris01.
> 
> Thanks chris01 for all your help and advice.


Having just ordered one myself - finally! - I second this. Thank you, Chris!


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



igna said:


> Very good informative links.
> 
> Still I'm having trouble with Certina use of the "PreciDrive" term, because there are several models (DS and DS2) with their dials showing "PreciDrive" and they actually are not a COSC quatz, for example:
> 
> DS-2 | Certina
> 
> On top of that we have "PowerDrive" term, very similar looking term, making easy to bring more confusion.
> 
> Regards.


I don't think it's as complicated as it may seem.

*PreciDrive* is the name for all the new ETA thermocompensated movements. They are claimed to achieve COSC quartz performance (can't remember the exact numbers but they're not up to the standard that most of us here want).

*COSC* normally (and specifically in the case of the DS-2 LE model) refers to a watch with a movement that has been tested and certified by COSC. AFAIK, when applied to the DS-2, this does not imply any higher standard of performance than the uncertified models.

*PowerDrive* is another new ETA technology that provides a higher precision of movement of the hands (NOT of timekeeping), for example allowing the DS-2 to feature a 1/100 second chronograph that actually moves in reproducible 10 millisecond jumps. This technology can be used with or without PreciDrive. I don't know whether PreciDrive always includes PowerDrive. I think that PowerDrive also includes the ability for the watch manufacturer to program various features/complications into their chosen movement.

*Certina* claims accuracy of around +/- 10 SPY (depending on the environment) for *all *the DS-2 models.


----------



## igna

Chris,

Ok, maybe is used incorrectly the COSC term.

The confusing for me is: several Certina PRECIDRIVE models does not explicitly tell the +-10 SPY in their manuals.

The model I gave as example was recently pointed as NON HAQ***. I was surprised by such affirmation and by looking into the manual, nothing says about the +/- 10 SPY. You can check by yourself: 356-quartz-en.pdf

And if you use the watch finder, select [Precidrive 3-hands] and [Precidrive chronograph], you get many models, including the one I pointed, not specification the accuracy in their manuals.

So, to simplify, ETA Precidrive are all TC, despite if later the watch builder will ask for certification or not. Later Certina stamps PRECIDRIVE in many models, and only in a few of them specify they are accurate to +/- 10 SPY. For me its like the "Precidrive" term is some abused.

Regards.

____

*** https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/tisso...024-410-11-051-01-a-1386250.html#post11272194



> ARTEC
> 
> Re: Tissot Couturier T035.410.11.051.00 OR Certina DS 2 PRECIDRIVE C024.410.11.051.01Neither is a true HAQ, I don't think, though the Certina is closer. Personally I like the looks of the Tissot better and I prefer it's smaller diameter (39mm) versus the 40mm of the Certina. If accuracy matters to you, and to almost all members of this sub-forum, it does, it would have to be the Certina.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, posted in the wrong place...that's what comes of reading two forums!​


----------



## chris01

igna said:


> Chris,
> 
> Ok, maybe is used incorrectly the COSC term.
> 
> The confusing for me is: several Certina PRECIDRIVE models does not explicitly tell the +-10 SPY in their manuals.
> 
> The model I gave as example was recently pointed as NON HAQ***. I was surprised by such affirmation and by looking into the manual, nothing says about the +/- 10 SPY. You can check by yourself: 356-quartz-en.pdf
> 
> And if you use the watch finder, select [Precidrive 3-hands] and [Precidrive chronograph], you get many models, including the one I pointed, not specification the accuracy in their manuals.
> 
> So, to simplify, ETA Precidrive are all TC, despite if later the watch builder will ask for certification or not. Later Certina stamps PRECIDRIVE in many models, and only in a few of them specify they are accurate to +/- 10 SPY. For me its like the "Precidrive" term is some abused.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> ____
> 
> *** https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/tisso...024-410-11-051-01-a-1386250.html#post11272194


The problem here is that you are allowing Certina's pathetic lack of adequate documentation to confuse you. They have an incomplete set of user manuals on their web site and, for example, the DS-2 PreciDrive 3-hand non-chrono gets you the generic manual for all their analog quartz watches. This manual has been there since before there were any PD watches available. There is at present no specific online documentation for that model. I don't know what you actually get with the watch; somebody here has bought one and perhaps he'd be kind enough to summarise the contents of the manual.

My advice is to stop stressing yourself out over this. The DS-2 chrono *is* PD, *is* TC, *is* specified to +/- 10 by Certina, and, in COSC and non-COSC form, *can easily *achieve this (except for one faulty watch reported so far).

The DS-2 non-chrono *is *PD, *is *TC, we don't yet know Certina's spec, and so far we have seen no reports on performance.

I haven't checked every instance of this, but I think you'll find that for the other PD chronos on Certina's web site you'll get the same user manual as for the DS-2 chrono, and for the PD non-chronos you'll get the same generic manual as for all other quartz. You may like to check this for yourself.

Edit: Artec's comment about the C024.410.11.051.01 was incorrect; it most certainly is a PreciDrive.


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive movements*



chris01 said:


> I don't think it's as complicated as it may seem.
> 
> *PreciDrive* is the name for all the new ETA thermocompensated movements. They are claimed to achieve COSC quartz performance (can't remember the exact numbers but they're not up to the standard that most of us here want).
> 
> *COSC* normally (and specifically in the case of the DS-2 LE model) refers to a watch with a movement that has been tested and certified by COSC. AFAIK, when applied to the DS-2, this does not imply any higher standard of performance than the uncertified models.
> 
> *PowerDrive* is another new ETA technology that provides a higher precision of movement of the hands (NOT of timekeeping), for example allowing the DS-2 to feature a 1/100 second chronograph that actually moves in reproducible 10 millisecond jumps. This technology can be used with or without PreciDrive. I don't know whether PreciDrive always includes PowerDrive. I think that PowerDrive also includes the ability for the watch manufacturer to program various features/complications into their chosen movement.
> 
> *Certina* claims accuracy of around +/- 10 SPY (depending on the environment) for *all *the DS-2 models.


Sorry to quote myself, but I thought this topic deserved to be thoroughly beaten to death.
I just checked the COSC quartz spec and, ignoring some of the finer detail:

Average daily rate at 23 °C: ±0.07 (25.6 SPY)
Rate at 8 °C: ±0.2 (73 SPY)
Rate at 38 °C: ±0.2 (73 SPY)

Nowhere near what we'd expect from a good TC. So let's stop agonising about COSC for quartz watches; it's irrelevant for HAQ.


----------



## dimman

chris01 said:


> Sorry to quote myself, but I thought this topic deserved to be thoroughly beaten to death.
> I just checked the COSC quartz spec and, ignoring some of the finer detail:
> 
> Average daily rate at 23 °C: ±0.07 (25.6 SPY)
> Rate at 8 °C: ±0.2 (73 SPY)
> Rate at 38 °C: ±0.2 (73 SPY)
> 
> Nowhere near what we'd expect from a good TC. So let's stop agonising about COSC for quartz watches; it's irrelevant for HAQ.


I was reading through ETA's 2014 quartz catalog and this is what they say:



> PreciDrive technology is based on PowerDrive technology.
> PreciDrive can achieve a precision which can pass the cOSc chronometer certifi cation, provided
> the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c.
> This precision can be achieved thanks to the thermo-compensation operating principle, which
> controls and regulates the motor pulses according to changes in the ambient temperature.
> By virtue of combining the quartz and integrated circuit in the same waterproof case, the precision
> is insensitive to moisture.


The 'can achieve a precision which can pass...' part seems weasel-wordy.

They don't actually say that PreciDrive can pass COSC. They say when it's not impacted and between 20-30°C the timing results would meet COSC. But COSC has a wider temperature requirement so it can't actually meet COSC?

It seems deliberately unclear.

They still have the Thermoline, which seems presented as superior to Precidrive.

ETA E64.111 Flatline series 'PreciDrive'
Hours, minutes, centre second.
Date, corrector.
Stop device and interrupter.
Battery End-of-Life indicator ( E.O.L. ).
8 jewels.
Autonomy theoretic of battery : 41

ETA 955.652 Thermoline series 'Thermocompensation Very high precision'

Hours, minutes, centre second.
Date in window.
Instantaneous change of date.
Battery « LITHIUM » type (U=3V ).
End-of-Life display (EOL).
7 jewels.
Autonomy theoretic of battery : 205 months.

PreciDrive isn't an independent range like Thermoline, it's more like an option on the Thinline range.

So is it reasonable to suspect that 'PreciDrive' is like an economy, limited temperaturr range TC module that can be added to existing movements?


----------



## chris01

Dimman said:


> PreciDrive isn't an independent range like Thermoline, it's more like an option on the Thinline range.
> 
> So is it reasonable to suspect that 'PreciDrive' is like an economy, limited temperaturr range TC module that can be added to existing movements?


I've nothing else to add to the debate about PD vs COSC, except that the performance specification of a watch is with the watch manufacturer, since ETA doesn't sell anything to end users. Whatever ETA says, we must rely on the manufacturer's data, since they are responsible for warranty and servicing.

I think PreciDrive and PowerDrive are to be seen as new, probably lower production cost, underlying technologies, from which are derived various movement families (Thermoline, Flatline, etc.). They aren't add-ons to anything, and I'd guess that all new ETA movements will be of this type.

One issue that I have noticed is that to date there has been no sign of a perpetual calendar, and that the non-chrono DS-2 doesn't even have an independent hour hand. Some dumbing down there, I think, although PC is not currently offered on anybody's analogue-only chrono, AFAIK.


----------



## dimman

PreciDrive is an add-on.

ETA 251.474 is available in PreciDrive and PowerDrive. Same reference number. Different lines.

This and their word choice makes me think their conditions for accuracy may be a bit 'loose' like the Precisionist.

Just from reading the catalog the impression is that the dedicated Thermoline movements are more precise.

But no specs for timing in it...

That is why the COSC certificate is nice, because it quantifies the conditions and tolerances. Without it we could end up with 'wear upside down for 23 hours a day then put it in the fridge for an hour to meet claims' small print.

I wonder if Swatch is taking a page from Citizen, in marketing-speak for these.

Citizen and Swatch know true HAQ very well, right? But that didn't stop Citizen from playing with marketing to consumer perception, rather than harder facts, with the Precisionist. 

Wouldn't surprise me if Swatch follows with an 'entry-level' piece.

The vague, vague, vague documents from Certina isn't helping.


----------



## ronalddheld

I am not a fan of imprecise or "squirrelly"specs. As usual we have to accumulate our own data.


----------



## igna

Very good comments on the matter. Thanks.

I see the Certina "356-quartz" manual (for several DS2 non chronograph models) labeled as Precidrive and the in manual (quotes from memory) you can read about "10 year accumulator", "Quartz Solar", "Autoquartz" and other details. So it seems a very general manual written for several models. And the question again, why not to include a accuracy description with an big *** explaining it only apply to the Precidrive models.

I do really like the Certina DS2 Chrono and I plan, if possible, buy one or other future model, but always having a manual with correct and clear specifications.


----------



## robc123

Cannot find much besides this thread, apologize if I am hijacking the thread if it only focuses on the timekeeping aspect. 

Setting aside the accuracy for a moment, how does everyone like the watch overall? 

-do you guys ever pop it on a nato or heuer type strap? (pics?)
-is the bracelet similar to the montblanc timewalker whereas it gets scuffed up in the shiny bits? 
-ever get complements on it? 
-anything sub $2k that would compare in style and quality? 

Seems to me to be a pretty good looking sub $1k watch, and I am starting to see the attraction of a quartz over a 7750 or similar.


----------



## ronalddheld

robc123 said:


> Cannot find much besides this thread, apologize if I am hijacking the thread if it only focuses on the timekeeping aspect.
> 
> Setting aside the accuracy for a moment, how does everyone like the watch overall?
> 
> -do you guys ever pop it on a nato or heuer type strap? (pics?)
> -is the bracelet similar to the montblanc timewalker whereas it gets scuffed up in the shiny bits?
> -ever get complements on it?
> -anything sub $2k that would compare in style and quality?
> 
> Seems to me to be a pretty good looking sub $1k watch, and I am starting to see the attraction of a quartz over a 7750 or similar.


This is a specialized forum concentrating on accuracy.


----------



## chris01

robc123 said:


> Setting aside the accuracy for a moment, how does everyone like the watch overall?


As the originator of this thread, I'll say that accuracy is the primary reason for liking the watch. Without that it's just another quartz chrono. Hower, I do think that it's a fine looking, well-made watch.



robc123 said:


> -do you guys ever pop it on a nato or heuer type strap? (pics?)


I hate straps.



robc123 said:


> -is the bracelet similar to the montblanc timewalker whereas it gets scuffed up in the shiny bits?


In my original review I predicted, correctly as it turned out, that those large polished sections would collect visible scratches. By coincidence, yesterday I decided my watch could benefit from a clean up after 14 months' almost daily wear. I was about to mask off the brushed edges and give it a polish, then I thought - why not try an all-over brushed finish? Good idea: I think it's an improvement on the original. I'll post a picture when I can.



robc123 said:


> -ever get complements on it?


My wife is the only person who has ever noticed any of my watches, and she thinks it's 'OK'.



robc123 said:


> -anything sub $2k that would compare in style and quality?


Style- probably lots. (High accuracy) quality - not much at anywhere near the price. And it does look and feel rather more expensive than its price. Certina seem to give good value for money and I'd recommend the DS-2 to anyone looking for a bargain HAQ chrono.


----------



## robc123

Thanks guys, sorry to hijack. for the price I think I will just go ahead and order one.


----------



## chris01

*How to buy a Certina watch*

Given the very limited promotion of the Certina brand outside Europe and a few other areas, and only 2 ADs in the US, it's not surprising that our North American friends may be reluctant to commit themselves to buying unseen from an unknown source. However, a fair number of DS-2s have made their way across the Atlantic, without any issues AFAIK.

So here's my suggested checklist:

1. Buying unseen is frequently the only option for many brands. If you like the pictures and specification, and you've read good things from people you have come to trust, then why not?

2. Browse the certina.com website for the model you're interested in. There's a Watchfinder page where you can search for, e.g. PRECIDRIVE. Unfortunately Certina gives almost no detailed info for any of their watches, but you can download a user manual that *may* have specific data for your chosen model. Note the model number.

3. Find a dealer. I found an excellent Spanish dealer whom I have recommended to numerous forum members and have not heard of any problems or issues with their purchases. You can Google the model number and should find some German and Spanish dealers (also Swedish and Polish) offering good prices, often with free shipping around the world. I have no idea about getting the VAT discounted if you're outside the EU but you can ask! You may also find that the dealer's website has some more detailed info about the watch.

4. Check your chosen dealer. Certina.com has a searchable list of ADs so you can verify that you'll get the 2-year international warranty.

5. Also, check for customer service in your country. Certina is part of the Swatch Group, so warranty and service is usually through a local SG service centre.

6. Now buy it!


----------



## ronalddheld

I was at a Certina store in Manhattan, so that may be an option for those in the US.


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> *How to buy a Certina watch*
> 
> Given the very limited promotion of the Certina brand outside Europe and a few other areas, and only 2 ADs in the US, it's not surprising that our North American friends may be reluctant to commit themselves to buying unseen from an unknown source. However, a fair number of DS-2s have made their way across the Atlantic, without any issues AFAIK.
> 
> . . . . .
> 
> 3. Find a dealer. I found an excellent Spanish dealer whom I have recommended to numerous forum members and have not heard of any problems or issues with their purchases.


I'm located in Canada and bought mine from the Spanish dealer based on Chris' recommendation and can say that the experience was good.

Not sure about the VAT because the listed price does not indicate if VAT is included or not, and the receipt makes no mention of VAT, but what I paid was 5% less than the current price listed on the site. Not sure what the VAT rate is, so this may have been net of VAT or just that the prices have gone up and include VAT.


----------



## Sabresoft

Note that the DS Eagle and some DS Podium models also use the Precidrive movement.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> Note that the DS Eagle and some DS Podium models also use the Precidrive movement.


Certina's site is getting quite crowded now - there are now 55 different models & variations with PreciDrive movements.

The chronos seem to have three different types:
1. as used in the original DS-2, with 2 centre hands, giving 1/100 second chrono - this is the ETA 251.264 CEN Precidrive
2. with 1 centre hand + subdial giving 1/10 second chrono - this is probably the ETA 251.264 DIX Precidrive
3. with a GMT subdial, 1 centre hand giving 1 second chrono - don't know what this is, maybe a reprogrammed version of #2

#1 has independent hour hand, no perpetual calendar, no quick date setting
#2 has no independent hour hand, no perpetual calendar, but has quick set date
#3 has probably the same feature set as #2

The 3-handers probably all use one or more rather basic PreciDrives, without independent hour hand or perpetual calendar.

At present there is no sign of any PD watches with perpetual calendar, and not many with independent hour hand.

*** I may be incorrect about #2 - it could have the same hour/calendar features as #1 ***

*** Further correction: #2 has the G10.212 DIX PreciDrive and the "no IH / no PC / QSdate" is probably correct ***


----------



## igna

Sabresoft said:


> I'm located in Canada and bought mine from the Spanish dealer based on Chris' recommendation and can say that the experience was good.
> 
> Not sure about the VAT because the listed price does not indicate if VAT is included or not, and the receipt makes no mention of VAT, but what I paid was 5% less than the current price listed on the site. Not sure what the VAT rate is, so this may have been net of VAT or just that the prices have gone up and include VAT.


Seems many are buying from Spain. The *VAT* its called *IVA* ( Impuesto sobre el Valor Añadido), and currently its 21% in general.


----------



## chris01

As promised in an earlier post, here is the result of my bracelet refurbishment. The bracelet's large polished centre sections were noticeably scratched after 14 months of almost daily wear, and instead of repolishing them I decided to try a brushed finish. This form of bracelet is a Certina 'house style', used both part-polished and fully-brushed, and I think I prefer the latter.

New watch:







After refinishing:


----------



## dicioccio

I prefer the fully brushed one - congratulations !!!


----------



## ronalddheld

I can see all polished or brushed but not a mixture. Might just be me.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> I can see all polished or brushed but not a mixture. Might just be me.


I think that Certina have the relative sizes wrong. I have some mixed bracelets where the polished parts are just slim inserts and don't show obvious marks. This can look quite classy.


----------



## Sabresoft

I prefer the all brushed look.


----------



## chris01

As the Certina range of PreciDrive watches has increased significantly (there is still no sign of PD watches from any other manufacturer), I thought it was time to update and simplify my table. I have removed all the various cosmetic options and used only the first part of the model number. All these models are displayed on certina.com but I have included extra information from ETA and dealer web sites.

The *SPY* column shows any specific accuracy data claimed for the watch by Certina (NB: *not *ETA's claim for the calibre).
*Chrono* shows the precision of the seconds indicators; these are centre hands unless a sub-dial is shown.
*IAHH* shows whether an independently-adjustable hour hand is provided.
All the watches have a date display; *QSD* indicates quick-set date.
Note that the 251.264 calibre allows fairly quick adjustment by moving the hour hand through 24 hours.
*P.Cal* refers to perpetual calendar, which seems to be missing from all PreciDrives so far.

Any updates or corrections gratefully received!


NameModel NumberETASPYChronoIAHHQSDP.CalOtherDS Podium GMT AluminiumC001.639G10.9621noyesnoGMT subDS Podium Big Size ChronographC001.647251.264 CEN1, 1/100yesnonoDS Dream - 38MMC021.810F07.411n/anoyesnoDS EagleC023.710F07.411n/anoyesnoDS-2C024.410F06.411n/anoyesnoDS-2 ChronoC024.447/448251.264 CEN+/-101, 1/100yesnonoDS SportC027.417G10.212 DIX1, 1/10 subnoyesnoDS Prime ShapeC028.310F06.411n/anoyesno


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Thank you for compiling that, Chris. I'm glad to see that Certina is expanding this line. Sooner or later, they may introduce another model which would interest me, and maybe by then, they will have decided to publish more than the absolute minimum of information about their watches!


----------



## chris01

watchcrank said:


> Thank you for compiling that, Chris. I'm glad to see that Certina is expanding this line. Sooner or later, they may introduce another model which would interest me, and maybe by then, they will have decided to publish more than the absolute minimum of information about their watches!


It seems to me that their range will gradually evolve into all-PD calibres. What a shame that their otherwise quite good web site has so much white space that they could easily fill with stuff that they already know and that we'd all like to see. Unfortunately their choice of a low market profile in most countries appears to infect all their activities.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> It seems to me that their range will gradually evolve into all-PD calibres.


That is a huge development. Already the three-hand DS-2 is one of the least expensive HAQ watches available new, albeit lacking in some features we would like to see, and lacking in any accuracy guarantees. The more models they switch over, the better, and the more accessible high-accuracy becomes.


----------



## chris01

watchcrank said:


> That is a huge development. Already the three-hand DS-2 is one of the least expensive HAQ watches available new, albeit lacking in some features we would like to see, and lacking in any accuracy guarantees. The more models they switch over, the better, and the more accessible high-accuracy becomes.


Agreed. What concerns me is that they are using potentially high-accuracy movements for reasons that may be driven only by cost (and a bit of a marketing USP) without consideration of what makes a truly HAQ. Specifically, IAHH (also PC) and the ability to be regulated (even if only by a service dept.), which appears to be absent judging by pictures of some calibres. Of course they can only use what ETA chooses to supply. Some of the PD calibres now in use are very basic and as you say we've seen nothing on accuracy from Certina except for the DS-2 chrono.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Yes, it's not ideal. The hour hand is particularly irksome since even some $50 Timex watches (non-HAQ, of course) have that.

I'm pleased that ETA seems to be mass producing these movements though. (I like how you characterized them "potentially high-accuracy".) It opens the door for better things, and before the chrono appeared last year, I'd mostly given up on the Swiss ever offering "affordable" HAQ again.


----------



## ronalddheld

I am uncertain about the future of HAQ watches with adjustable hour hand.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> I am uncertain about the future of HAQ watches with adjustable hour hand.


We're certainly not being overwhelmed by them, are we? 
Bottom line for me: No IAHH = Not HAQ
My VHPs will have to keep going for another 20 years (assuming that I do).


----------



## ronalddheld

I am uncertain about the general future of HAQ watches being replaced by RC/GPS watches.


----------



## artec

Although there is no certainty about future models, of course, it does appear that Citizen is more committed than anyone else to the independently adjusted hour-hand (just realized what IAHH means!). The fact that their most recently introduced model, the AQ series, are so equipped is encouraging.
It seems to me that including an IAHH in a watches specification would be a relatively simple change/addition, since it can be entirely mechanical; does it not therefore follow that other HAQ manufacturers don't believe that the feature is desirable? Maybe that should read "desirable enough to bother with?"


----------



## chris01

artec said:


> Although there is no certainty about future models, of course, it does appear that Citizen is more committed than anyone else to the independently adjusted hour-hand (just realized what IAHH means!). The fact that their most recently introduced model, the AQ series, are so equipped is encouraging.
> It seems to me that including an IAHH in a watches specification would be a relatively simple change/addition, since it can be entirely mechanical; does it not therefore follow that other HAQ manufacturers don't believe that the feature is desirable? Maybe that should read "desirable enough to bother with?"


It seems that they prefer to use 'crown position 2' for quick date adjustment rather than IAHH. For most people, changing the date is 5/year while the hour is only 2/year and, of course, hacking the time is not a precise operation. If the manufacturer can't easily add a perpetual calendar (obviously far more complex than IAHH) it's a fairly obvious choice.


----------



## Omega Ronin

ronalddheld said:


> I was at a Certina store in Manhattan, so that may be an option for those in the US.


I think their "sister" store (same owner) is also in Las Vegas. That is where I got mine. Decent service and delivery was overnight....


----------



## ronalddheld

Omega Ronin said:


> I think their "sister" store (same owner) is also in Las Vegas. That is where I got mine. Decent service and delivery was overnight....


Where is the LV store?


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Omega Ronin said:


> I think their "sister" store (same owner) is also in Las Vegas. That is where I got mine. Decent service and delivery was overnight....


Maybe I should have checked the US ADs again before ordering from Spain. When I last inquired a year ago, neither NY nor LV had the Precidrive Chrono. Good to know that has changed.


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Where is the LV store?










HOUR PASSION BOUTIQUE
ARIA Resort & Casino
3730 Las Vegas Boulevard South
LAS VEGAS, NV, 89158
United States

Or

Hour Passion Las Vegas
*Address:* Las Vegas Blvd S., 3730, Las Vegas, NV 89158
*Phone:*(702) 795-0477
*Hours:**Open today* · 10:00 am - 12:00 am

De nada ;-)


----------



## Omega Ronin

gaijin said:


> HOUR PASSION BOUTIQUE
> ARIA Resort & Casino
> 3730 Las Vegas Boulevard South
> LAS VEGAS, NV, 89158
> United States
> 
> Or
> 
> Hour Passion Las Vegas
> *Address:* Las Vegas Blvd S., 3730, Las Vegas, NV 89158
> *Phone:*(702) 795-0477
> *Hours:**Open today* · 10:00 am - 12:00 am
> 
> De nada ;-)


Yep, right where I got this one


----------



## Colourise

Hi

I got my DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph last week.

I have a question about the chronograph function of the watch.

If the chronograph is stopped in the middle of timing, by pressing the button at the 2 o'clock position are the motors or motor that drive the chronograph function still drawing power from the battery or are all the chronograph "hands" just locked at whatever position they are stopped at and no further power is drawn?

Thanks


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Mine arrived yesterday. Many thanks to Chris and the many others who continue to make this thread a must-read.

Far too soon of course to tell what the long-term accuracy will be, but with the things I can see at this point, I'm quite pleased. Finish is very good for the price, and the chrono buttons are adequately crisp if not completely mechanical in feel (I'm not, incidentally, convinced that this is a bad thing). The seconds ticking is quiet, and the hands seem to hit their markers precisely. Speaking of hands leads me inescapably to a lengthy digression on the nature of analog displays.

To wit, I had expected the sweeping hundredths hand to be hilarious but ultimately useless, since reaction times at my age mean I can't really time anything manually to a significance of less than 1/5-1/4 second. In fact, it is indeed hilarious, but I cannot call it useless.

I'm a bit surprised but should not be. My preference in gauges is almost always for an analog display over digital (in this sense meaning specifically numeric), as the former not only shows me the current reading, but its movement and scale show my subconscious (and sometimes conscious) brain a good deal more information, especially on steadily changing displays, such as a watch or clock or the tachometer or speedometer of an accelerating automobile. Watching a moving needle tells me not only what the reading is but also what it was and what it will be and the rate at which the reading is changing. A digital display, whether moving or not, gives me only the current reading, with any sense of scale, rate, or direction being derived only logically, and this I'm convinced takes more of my brain than a quick glance at an analog display. I admit this is only a guess, but it's consistent with other observations of my own brain, and in any case, it's certainly a strong preference.

This brings me to the sweeping hundredths hand. While I cannot personally use all of this precision to get times, the hand itself gives me a very good graphical representation of the passage of time in sub-second intervals. I can't say this is useful to me every day, but there are maybe two weeks out of a year - and likely other times - when I find it useful to time events repeatedly at well under one second precision, and I expect this macro-scale representation of the second itself to be at least moderately useful in giving me some intuitive estimates even when I don't necessarily time a split or otherwise hit the chrono buttons fast enough to get a good reading. This value is no doubt relatively small, but it's unique and beautiful and interesting.

Enough rambling philosophy. Here's my morning photo, with the stock strap already switched for brown leather from Crown & Buckle:


----------



## chris01

Colourise said:


> Hi
> 
> I got my DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph last week.
> 
> I have a question about the chronograph function of the watch.
> 
> If the chronograph is stopped in the middle of timing, by pressing the button at the 2 o'clock position are the motors or motor that drive the chronograph function still drawing power from the battery or are all the chronograph "hands" just locked at whatever position they are stopped at and no further power is drawn?
> 
> Thanks


I don't know and there's probably no way to find out, since Certina are pretty useless and ETA won't talk to you. However, it seems very unlikely that the motors would still be drawing power while doing nothing useful. If you left the chrono 'stopped' but not 'reset' you might find the battery dead or the stalled motors burned out after a few days. I can't really see a difference between the two states, since pressing the start button has exactly the same effect in either case. It seems quite safe to ignore this non-issue and just enjoy your new watch. Congratulations, by the way!


----------



## svorkoetter

watchcrank said:


> My preference in gauges is almost always for an analog display over digital (in this sense meaning specifically numeric), as the former not only shows me the current reading, but its movement and scale show my subconscious (and sometimes conscious) brain a good deal more information, especially on steadily changing displays, such as a watch or clock or the tachometer or speedometer of an accelerating automobile. Watching a moving needle tells me not only what the reading is but also what it was and what it will be and the rate at which the reading is changing.


Agreed 100%. This becomes especially apparent when flying, during a climb to altitude. As you approach the desired altitude, you start to reduce your rate of climb and increase your speed. The goal is that your rate of climb becomes zero at the same time that you reach your altitude. That would be really difficult to do with a numeric altitude readout, and that's (probably) why modern digital (as in, computer-driven, not necessarily numeric) cockpit displays still use analog indications. In the case of altitude, it's a depiction of a vertically moving tape, with an arrow pointing at your current altitude, but a range of altitudes above and below that visible as well.

The same thing goes for turning while watching the heading indicator. You start to roll out of the turn as you near the desired heading. Again, difficult to do with a numeric readout, but easy with a mechanical heading indicator (gyro compass) or the horizontal tape used in digital cockpit instrumentation.

Numbers are useful if you need an accurate reading, but are not as useful for manually monitoring real world processes in real time.


----------



## Colourise

chris01 said:


> I don't know and there's probably no way to find out, since Certina are pretty useless and ETA won't talk to you. However, it seems very unlikely that the motors would still be drawing power while doing nothing useful. If you left the chrono 'stopped' but not 'reset' you might find the battery dead or the stalled motors burned out after a few days. I can't really see a difference between the two states, since pressing the start button has exactly the same effect in either case. It seems quite safe to ignore this non-issue and just enjoy your new watch. Congratulations, by the way!


Thanks for the quick reply.

I was just wondering that, if I ever forgot to reset the chronograph would it drain the battery or burn out the motors (hadn't thought of that one!)?

But I will do as instructed.....and just enjoy my new watch:-!

thanks


----------



## svorkoetter

chris01 said:


> I don't know and there's probably no way to find out, since Certina are pretty useless and ETA won't talk to you. However, it seems very unlikely that the motors would still be drawing power while doing nothing useful. If you left the chrono 'stopped' but not 'reset' you might find the battery dead or the stalled motors burned out after a few days. I can't really see a difference between the two states, since pressing the start button has exactly the same effect in either case. It seems quite safe to ignore this non-issue and just enjoy your new watch. Congratulations, by the way!


Yes, the hands won't use any power while stopped.

The motors in a watch, at least all the motors I've seen in watches, have a permanent magnet armature. As such, they exhibit cogging, which holds the motor in position even with no power applied (it's just the permanent magnet trying to stay aligned with the cores of the stators). Find a cheap toy hobby motor, and try turning it by hand with no power connected. You'll find that there are six positions, 60 degrees apart (for a typical three-slot two-pole hobby motor), that the motor will want to stay in, and it takes some force to displace it from those positions. The same idea applies to the motors in watches.

I suspect that this is why quartz chronos have a feature to allow you to realign the hands. A really hard shock, strong enough to overcome this resting torque, could move the hands from where they last stopped without the watch electronics knowing about it.


----------



## Colourise

svorkoetter said:


> Yes, the hands won't use any power while stopped. The motors in a watch, at least all the motors I've seen in watches, have a permanent magnet armature. As such, they exhibit cogging, which holds the motor in position even with no power applied (it's just the permanent magnet trying to stay aligned with the cores of the stators). Find a cheap toy hobby motor, and try turning it by hand with no power connected. You'll find that there are six positions, 60 degrees apart (for a typical three-slot two-pole hobby motor), that the motor will want to stay in, and it takes some force to displace it from those positions. The same idea applies to the motors in watches. I suspect that this is why quartz chronos have a feature to allow you to realign the hands. A really hard shock, strong enough to overcome this resting torque, could move the hands from where they last stopped without the watch electronics knowing about it.


 Thanks, that's interesting information


----------



## watchcrank_tx

watchcrank said:


> This brings me to the sweeping hundredths hand. While I cannot personally use all of this precision to get times, the hand itself gives me a very good graphical representation of the passage of time in sub-second intervals. I can't say this is useful to me every day, but there are maybe two weeks out of a year - and likely other times - when I find it useful to time events repeatedly at well under one second precision, and I expect this macro-scale representation of the second itself to be at least moderately useful in giving me some intuitive estimates even when I don't necessarily time a split or otherwise hit the chrono buttons fast enough to get a good reading. This value is no doubt relatively small, but it's unique and beautiful and interesting.


I apologize for continuing my lengthy discourse (adding this as a new post, since I see the earlier one has already been read), but I thought I would add that having timed a few things now, I would no longer say that the additional value of the hundredths hand is relatively small. On the contrary, I think the eye-brain complex is quite capable of more or less instantly deriving 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 intervals from where the hand lands on the dial, without close reference to the 1/100 markers. My past experiments videoing stopwatch operation indicates to me that these are all valid precisions for hand measurement, especially those of 1/4 or coarser. The ability to get these measurements at a glance rather than from careful study of a tiny subdial is a very useful thing, and since I don't have any need to make careful study of the 1/100 scale, I'm not bothered, as I expected to be, by having three scales on the watch rather than the two (12 and 60) of the typical watch dial.

Two other things I forgot to mention earlier: the minute hand is too long, and the tails of the chrono hands should be split to make the seconds sub-dial easier to read at 0. Aside from that, I have few critiques of the interface and legibility, which are - as you can probably tell from my last two posts - major priorities for me.


----------



## chris01

watchcrank said:


> I apologize for continuing my lengthy discourse (adding this as a new post, since I see the earlier one has already been read), but I thought I would add that having timed a few things now, I would no longer say that the additional value of the hundredths hand is relatively small. On the contrary, I think the eye-brain complex is quite capable of more or less instantly deriving 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 intervals from where the hand lands on the dial, without close reference to the 1/100 markers. My past experiments videoing stopwatch operation indicates to me that these are all valid precisions for hand measurement, especially those of 1/4 or coarser. The ability to get these measurements at a glance rather than from careful study of a tiny subdial is a very useful thing, and since I don't have any need to make careful study of the 1/100 scale, I'm not bothered, as I expected to be, by having three scales on the watch rather than the two (12 and 60) of the typical watch dial.
> 
> Two other things I forgot to mention earlier: the minute hand is too long, and the tails of the chrono hands should be split to make the seconds sub-dial easier to read at 0. Aside from that, I have few critiques of the interface and legibility, which are - as you can probably tell from my last two posts - major priorities for me.


I can see your point, although I still feel the same way as I did in post #1 when I first reviewed this watch. For relative timing, the 1/100 hand may give a useful indication but, for an absolute measurement to 0.01 sec, it's just not realistic to have to read four separate indicators to get one time value. I do a lot of watch timing using the stopwatch method and, if I'd had to use this watch instead of the little Heuer digital that has served me faithfully for 27 years, I would have long ago given up any interest in HAQ, or gone mad, or gone blind. If the fourth hand was an optional extra I would never consider adding it.

I certainly agree with your last paragraph.


----------



## flori78

Can someone please help me with an online shop with good price and support link via pm for the certina ds2?


----------



## chris01

flori78 said:


> Can someone please help me with an online shop with good price and support link via pm for the certina ds2?


PM sent.


----------



## gliderbee

*Re: A little off-topic*

And here is mine ! N° 306 of 1888.















Stefan


----------



## Omega Ronin

chris01 said:


> PM sent.


I sent you my "source" as well..Hope that helps..


----------



## ftrez

I'd also like any online sources for the DS2. I've been looking all over but striking out.

Thanks


----------



## chris01

ftrez said:


> I'd also like any online sources for the DS2. I've been looking all over but striking out.
> 
> Thanks


If you have the time and patience to read this entire thread (426 posts) you can probably find the answer to any possible question about this watch. 

Anyway, PM sent.


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## SEH1800

VitekB said:


> It looks like....I have joined your team today! Honestly, DS-1 looks too simple now :/
> View attachment 1539682


Hello All, new here and my first post. 
Have read this thread and very convinced I should have one of these, now question is what flavor?
Could poster VitekB (or anyone else with this black/silver model) please give feedback on the legibility of this color combo? 
Like the look but am concerned about readability of hour/minutes hands. 
Have seen all in a local shop except for this one and the Sauber F1 version. 
Thanks for your replies in advance!


----------



## John Flynn

.


----------



## John Flynn

SEH1800 said:


> Hello All, new here and my first post.
> Have read this thread and very convinced I should have one of these, now question is what flavor?
> Could poster VitekB (or anyone else with this *black/silver model) please give feedback on the legibility of this color combo? Like the look but am concerned about readability of hour/minutes hands*. [snip]


I'm curious about the same thing. I'm considering the LE Chronometer (panda dial). Can you discern the time (just the hour and minute hands) at a quick glance?

Have read the entire thread (took a couple days) and have this one question. Thanks in advance.


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## gliderbee

Post 424 shows the LE edition. I have no problems reading time at a glance.

Stefan


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## John Flynn

Thanks Stefan. Appreciate your quick reply.


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## SEH1800

gliderbee said:


> Post 424 shows the LE edition.


Thanks but not the one...sorry if I wasn't more clear, I'm talking about the black with silver subdial version, only that one specifically.

I quoted the original post with pic for reference but pic doesn't show up...


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## SEH1800

This one:


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## gliderbee

I know: I replied to Johns question about the LE edition.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## SEH1800

Ah Gliderbee I see now indeed you did. My mistake. 

Hello out there anyone who owns the black/silver subdials I'm after?


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## watchcrank_tx

After about a month of use, I have noticed an ever-so-slight misalignment of the two central chrono hands. I think this must be a very recent development, for I use the chrono quite often and look closely at the dial when I do. The hand calibration routine from the user manual did not erase the dfference. So long as the misalignment doesn't worsen, it's not nearly to the point where it would make sense to seek warranty support. It's only a hairsbreadth of difference, barely visible at wrist distance and imperceptible from further away. But yet not perfect to the naked eye as it was at first.

On a more positive note, the accuracy has so far been superb, as best as I can tell without specialized measurement. I've not yet set up a tripod for consistent video, but simply from eyeballing the differential between the running seconds and time.gov, it appeared to have gained from 1/4 or 1/5 second behind to spot on over the course of three weeks. That would indicate something almost certainly under 8 s/y even allowing plenty of room for error. Of course, weather and wearing pattern will no doubt change significantly through the year, but nonetheless, I have been very pleased.

It was after making that determination that I accidentally hacked the seconds demonstrating the independent hour hand to a friend last week. When I'd recovered from my shock, I pushed the crown back in, but I was a few seconds out by that point. Regulars in this forum will understand the feeling when I relate that I was hilariously uncomfortable and anxious until I could get home and set it again. The potential of a HAQ watch deserves better than to be accidentally hacked, whether it's being left to drift to track accuracy or it's being corrected every few months.


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## quattro98

Haven't posted in awhile. Took this picture to answer a question in another thread. I've been wearing mine on a silicone strap (Hadley Roma) & steel RHD deployant buckle.


----------



## chris01

Here's the last 12 months' performance data.









Some explanation:
1. Vertical blue bars are the total daily variation in seconds from day zero, plotted against the RH axis.
2. The purple line is the YTD calculated SPY, plotted against the LH axis. Obviously, at day 365 this has the same value, 1.72, as the variation.
3. Green line is the YTD calculated SPY, starting at day 212, when I adopted a new regular wearing pattern.
4. Black dots, with month and value caption, are the variations for each calendar month, extrapolated to an SPY value.
5. Red dots on the zero axis indicate the days when the watch was unworn.

What does all this tell us? 
Over a year of mixed wear it shows +1.72 SPY.
A period of mostly regular 6 days/week wear gives +3.18 SPY.
Monthly SPY values aren't easily correlated with seasonal factors because of the changes in wearing pattern.
Unworn, the watch runs faster than with daily wear. The continuous unworn period from day 78 to 87 shows around +8 SPY, but this is based on only two measurements.
And so on ...

I'll keep the current wearing pattern running until the leap second on 30 June.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> ...
> What does all this tell us?
> ...


What this does tell me is that your watch was calibrated for wear.
Like all watches should have been.

That will get me into trouble!


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> What this does tell me is that your watch was calibrated for wear.
> Like all watches should have been.
> 
> That will get me into trouble!


Yes that seems to be the case (and why would we want anything else?). Interesting that my DS-2 runs slower when worn (relative to unworn), while my VHPs all speed up. I'm wondering if this wearing pattern for the next 4 months will show a declining rate as the weather warms up.

This does show how short-term measurements (as discussed in another thread) can be interesting but misleading in the real world of watches that we actually use.


----------



## Intred

Could someone with a certina ds2 and an iphone 6 make a slow motion video of the chronograph function working?


----------



## chris01

Intred said:


> Could someone with a certina ds2 and an iphone 6 make a slow motion video of the chronograph function working?


I have a DS-2 but have no clue as to how to post a video, iPhone or otherwise. If you go here:
Commercials | Certina
and watch the DS-2 video, you can see the chrono working just after 1:00. You can right-click and run the the video at half speed.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about this function. I did post a detailed description way back in this rather long thread.

Edit: the search function found this for me:
Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph - Page 16

If you're hoping to see the 1/100 hand in _*very*_ slow motion, then sorry I can't help.


----------



## chris01

A minor update to the list of PD watches:

The *SPY* column shows any specific accuracy data claimed for the watch by the manfacturer (NB: *not *ETA's claim for the calibre).
*Chrono* shows the precision of the seconds indicators; these are centre hands unless a sub-dial is shown.
*IAHH* shows whether an independently-adjustable hour hand is provided, so far apparently only on the 251.264 chrono.
All the watches have a date display; *QSD* indicates quick-set date.
Note that the 251.264 calibre allows fairly quick adjustment by moving the hour hand through 24 hours.
*P.Cal* refers to perpetual calendar, which seems to be missing from all PreciDrives so far.

I have recently noticed that none of ETA's illustrations of their PreciDrive movements now show the '+' and '-' markings on the backplate that we have assumed indicate calibration setting points. Has anybody any comment on this?


MakeNameModel NumberETASPYChronoIAHHQSDP.CalRate AdjOtherNameCertinaDS Podium GMT AluminiumC001.639G10.9621noyesnonoGMT subCertinaDS Podium Big Size ChronographC001.647251.264 CEN1, 1/100yesnonoyesThermolineCertinaDS Dream - 38MMC021.810F07.411n/anoyesnonoCertinaDS EagleC023.710F07.411n/anoyesnonoCertinaDS-2C024.410F06.411n/anoyesnonoCertinaDS-2 ChronographC024.447/448251.264 CEN+/-101, 1/100yesnonoyesThermolineCertinaDS SportC027.417G10.212 DIX1, 1/10 subnoyesnonoFashionlineCertinaDS Prime ShapeC028.310F06.411n/anoyesnonoCertinaDS Action ChronographC032.417G10.2121, 1/10 subnoyesnonoFashionlineCertinaDS-8 Chronograph Moon Phase?G10.9621noyesnonoMoonChr.WardC7 Rapide ChronometerC7-42-COSC-390251.264 DIXCOSC1, 1/10 subyesnonoyesThermolineCertinaDS ActionC032.410F07.411n/anoyesnono


----------



## Bababooey

Just curious here, but why are people so secretive about where they bought their Certinas from? I've seen a lot of veiled responses and requests for PM's, rather than just posting the overseas dealer they used. I bought a DS Action diver from Spain last year and was quite satisfied, but would love to learn of other options.


----------



## chris01

Honkylips said:


> Just curious here, but why are people so secretive about where they bought their Certinas from? I've seen a lot of veiled responses and requests for PM's, rather than just posting the overseas dealer they used. I bought a DS Action diver from xxxxxxxxxxxx last year and was quite satisfied, but would love to learn of other options.


Since I've been as 'guilty' as anyone else, especially on this thread, I'll respond. This forum isn't a public asset; it has an owner who chooses to set the rules of play. We don't post commercial links here, except to forum sponsors. If it's too difficult to send a simple PM asking for help then Google is your friend.


----------



## Bababooey

chris01 said:


> Since I've been as 'guilty' as anyone else, especially on this thread, I'll respond. This forum isn't a public asset; it has an owner who chooses to set the rules of play. We don't post commercial links here, except to forum sponsors. If it's too difficult to send a simple PM asking for help then Google is your friend.


That makes sense, and I certainly can appreciate the respect to forum sponsors. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## petethegeek

My first post on the forum, and indeed this fine sub forum in particular, is offered as a thank you to all who have contributed to this thread - Chris in particular.

I don't intend boring you with the full turgid tale, simply suffice it to say that having been impressed by a couple of watches containing the ETA 251.262 movement I was looking for something which used one of the tc equivalents/derivatives. Having considered several candidates, including the Christopher Ward C30 and the MLC Miros, I found myself becoming more and more taken with the Certina DS 2 Chrono. After an evening spent reading this thread start to finish, and having had a friendly and helpful PM exchange with Chris, I contacted the man from Cáceres who turned out to be just as easy and pleasant to deal with as everyone has suggested.

A week on and a 125th Limited Edition is now sitting on the desk in front of me. It's always a bit of a punt buying sight unseen on recommendations, but thus far I'm delighted. I've set the time visually against my trusty atomic G-Shock and I will be monitoring it over the next few days whilst I look at a few straps. When that's done I intend taking a couple of pictures, put one or two in the other thread and start doing some serious time logging.


----------



## tmathes

I've been following this entire thread with great interest as the new DS-8 moonphase has piqued my interest. Glad to see someone turning out new quartz movements that improve on the typical +/- 15 sec/month accuracy.

Out of curiosity, has anyone with one of these newer DS series watches gone though a battery replacement yet? Was it difficult or did you have to take it somewhere to get it replaced (ie needed special tools)? Any pictures of the case back don't indicate notches that would make a battery change an easy affair.


----------



## chris01

petethegeek said:


> My first post on the forum, and indeed this fine sub forum in particular, is offered as a thank you to all who have contributed to this thread - Chris in particular.
> 
> I don't intend boring you with the full turgid tale, simply suffice it to say that having been impressed by a couple of watches containing the ETA 251.262 movement I was looking for something which used one of the tc equivalents/derivatives. Having considered several candidates, including the Christopher Ward C30 and the MLC Miros, I found myself becoming more and more taken with the Certina DS 2 Chrono. After an evening spent reading this thread start to finish, and having had a friendly and helpful PM exchange with Chris, I contacted the man from Cáceres who turned out to be just as easy and pleasant to deal with as everyone has suggested.
> 
> A week on and a 125th Limited Edition is now sitting on the desk in front of me. It's always a bit of a punt buying sight unseen on recommendations, but thus far I'm delighted. I've set the time visually against my trusty atomic G-Shock and I will be monitoring it over the next few days whilst I look at a few straps. When that's done I intend taking a couple of pictures, put one or two in the other thread and start doing some serious time logging.


Glad to see you've joined the DS-2 club, Pete. After the first foreign, unseen purchase it all seems quite easy. Be warned, that's where it gets expensive!


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I've been following this entire thread with great interest as the new DS-8 moonphase has piqued my interest. Glad to see someone turning out new quartz movements that improve on the typical +/- 15 sec/month accuracy.
> 
> Out of curiosity, has anyone with one of these newer DS series watches gone though a battery replacement yet? Was it difficult or did you have to take it somewhere to get it replaced (ie needed special tools)? Any pictures of the case back don't indicate notches that would make a battery change an easy affair.


My DS-2 is one of the earliest, if not the first, PreciDrive watch reported on this forum. It's 18 months old, with a claimed battery life of 2+ years, so I'd not really expect that anybody would have changed a battery yet.

DS watches have at least 2 types of back - screw in and press in. Mine is the latter and it has two rather unusual long, curved notches at 11 to 1 and 5 to 7. I'm not sure what I'll do when the time arrives, although I may be interested in investigating the rate adjustment feature. There was a report of a DS-2 back removal with a simple lever-type tool, but the poster went quiet after that.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> My DS-2 is one of the earliest, if not the first, PreciDrive watch reported on this forum. It's 18 months old, with a claimed battery life of 2+ years, so I'd not really expect that anybody would have changed a battery yet.
> 
> DS watches have at least 2 types of back - screw in and press in. Mine is the latter and it has two rather unusual long, curved notches at 11 to 1 and 5 to 7. I'm not sure what I'll do when the time arrives, although I may be interested in investigating the rate adjustment feature. There was a report of a DS-2 back removal with a simple lever-type tool, but the poster went quiet after that.


I found this Yootoob video, is this what you were describing? The removal seemed quite simple, much simpler than when I use a case knife on some other watches (quite clumsily at times to my chagrin):


----------



## Tom-HK

I'm on a buying-break for a while (all right, my breaks are short and sporadic, but they are real breaks in my eyes), but the DS-2 chrono is definitely my next purchase. A very nice modern Swiss offering that I think raises the bar, and does so at a very reasonable price. Seiko's 9F is amazing, but it's stuck in the past and I worry that they're resting too much on their Japanese market (in which Grand Seiko is absolutely the bee's knees (there's another weird expression)). No perpetual calendar; no IAHH; no progress! Citizen are making strides with their A040, which is a step in the right direction from the A010, which in turn built logically upon the amazing A660. Shame they seem to be regressing in terms of their styles, though. Limited, rather conservative range (so far).

Far from letting Swiss HAQ slumber and quietly die away (as some might have feared could happen with the state of the mechanical-centric European watch industry), ETA have gone and added protection from moisture to their already superb thermocompensated line-up. And in a chronograph, too. And cheap(ish). What more could a fella want?

Side thought (random thought; barely awake, this morning; Ritalin yet to kick in): Precidrive's additional moisture protection might actually be of some value (very hard to say for sure, but it *might, possibly* be) here in the tropics, but I wonder why it entered the mind of a developer in Switzerland. Similarly, Japan doesn't have daylight savings, and The Citizen / Chronomaster is JDM, so I wonder why the addition of an IAHH entered the minds of the Japanese engineers. Then there's Seiko. Grand Seiko is now sold internationally, to countries that *have* got daylight savings, and yet no-one in Seiko has thought to add an IAHH to the 9F. Still, that's what the Casio Oceanus hybrid is for. Right? END OF RANDOM THOUGHTS


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I found this Yootoob video, is this what you were describing? The removal seemed quite simple, much simpler than when I use a case knife on some other watches (quite clumsily at times to my chagrin):


I hadn't seen this but it does look to be the same format as the DS-2. I'm quite likely to have a go myself. However, I will definitely not be using metal tweezers to remove the battery.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I'm on a buying-break for a while (all right, my breaks are short and sporadic, but they are real breaks in my eyes), but the DS-2 chrono is definitely my next purchase. A very nice modern Swiss offering that I think raises the bar, and does so at a very reasonable price. Seiko's 9F is amazing, but it's stuck in the past and I worry that they're resting too much on their Japanese market (in which Grand Seiko is absolutely the bee's knees (there's another weird expression)). No perpetual calendar; no IAHH; no progress! Citizen are making strides with their A040, which is a step in the right direction from the A010, which in turn built logically upon the amazing A660. Shame they seem to be regressing in terms of their styles, though. Limited, rather conservative range (so far).
> 
> Far from letting Swiss HAQ slumber and quietly die away (as some might have feared could happen with the state of the mechanical-centric European watch industry), ETA have gone and added protection from moisture to their already superb thermocompensated line-up. And in a chronograph, too. And cheap(ish). What more could a fella want?
> 
> Side thought (random thought; barely awake, this morning; Ritalin yet to kick in): Precidrive's additional moisture protection might actually be of some value (very hard to say for sure, but it *might, possibly* be) here in the tropics, but I wonder why it entered the mind of a developer in Switzerland. Similarly, Japan doesn't have daylight savings, and The Citizen / Chronomaster is JDM, so I wonder why the addition of an IAHH entered the minds of the Japanese engineers. Then there's Seiko. Grand Seiko is now sold internationally, to countries that *have* got daylight savings, and yet no-one in Seiko has thought to add an IAHH to the 9F. Still, that's what the Casio Oceanus hybrid is for. Right? END OF RANDOM THOUGHTS


There's two aspects of moisture protection in the DS-2: 1. the standard Certina features that are used in their DS watches, giving extra (?) protection to the watch internals, and 2. the ceramic packaging of the electronics by ETA. While some people hate it, I'd like to see Sinn's CuSO4 capsule included in other brands. A brilliant idea, trapping any incoming moisture and indicating its presence.

Yes, your collection is lacking a PreciDrive, and the DS-2 currently has the most complete ETA TC calibre, the 251.264. None of the other PD movements so far released in watches have an independent hour hand, and perpetual calendar is currently nowhere. You can get the same movement in the DS Podium Big Size Chronograph (what a terrible name) and the Chr.Ward C7 Rapide.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> I hadn't seen this but it does look to be the same format as the DS-2. I'm quite likely to have a go myself. However, I will definitely not be using metal tweezers to remove the battery.


Let us know how it goes, I've read a few comments on WUS about the Certina DS case being unusual but if the video is any indication it seems rather simple to open the snap-back case. Closing it though could be another story.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Let us know how it goes, I've read a few comments on WUS about the Certina DS case being unusual but if the video is any indication it seems rather simple to open the snap-back case. Closing it though could be another story.


I will consider it when the battery dies, or possibly just after the leap second on 30 June.

Closing it might be interesting, although I do have a selection of hammers. It looked far too easy in that video.


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> It looked far too easy in that video.


It's amazing how easily watches open and close in videos, isn't it? There's an Esslinger video of how to open a watch with a rubber ball. The chap in the video exerts almost no effort at all. He could have sneezed and the back would have dropped off.


----------



## tmathes

Tom-HK said:


> It's amazing how easily watches open and close in videos, isn't it? There's an Esslinger video of how to open a watch with a rubber ball. The chap in the video exerts almost no effort at all. *He could have sneezed and the back would have dropped off.*


:-d

I've had my share of snap backs that were difficult to remove, one confounded me for 21 years. I kept the watch even though I didn't care for it just to see if I could eventually figure out how to open it (it was a wedding gift from my wife's relatives). With some great tips I got from WUS (watch repair sub forum) I finally opened it a few months ago.

Closing some of these case backs, well, that's another story. I did come up with one sleazy technique to avoid buying a case closing tool. I use a small, fine metal file and file the edges of the snap rim down a bit (on the back, not the case) and that gives me enough slop to snap back the case with a bit of force but purely by hand. I'm not worried about the full-rated water resistance since I don't swim nor shower with a watch, never had an issue with my slimy technique with occasional splashes on the cases where I had to pull this trick.


----------



## yankeexpress

Wish to thank Chris and the other posters for the information here, as I just finished reading this entire thread in a few hours as I have a DS-2 PD chrono with green hands inbound obtained pre-owned from a WUS member on the f/29 sales forum for an amazingly low price. The official Certina video did its marketing job and sold the watch to me as mine sat unbought on the forum for many weeks with no takers as I monitored it. 

Honestly the rest of the HAQ forum has not been one of the friendliest WUS forums to my mind for its generally poor treatment of the Precisionist movements of which I have had excellent accuracy and performance in the 5 I own. While they are not TC, they have been accurate timekeepers and have been given short shrift in other threads here. 

Once the price of the this particular nearly new DS-2 came down to near the same level as the upper range Precisionist, I began paying attention, leading to my purchase. My watch interests are far ranging, from affordable automatics to radio corrected Citizen and Casio, solar charged and atomic G-Shocks and Seiko kinetic, to normally accurate quartz. 

Anything under $1000 interests me as I can be very tough on my watches due to my job and my sport, I refuse to pay the vastly over marketed prices above that limit since by experience I have learned that the toughest watches do not cost much and the pricy watches cannot take the brutal use a watch on my wrist must endure. If I destroy an affordable, no big deal, I get another. I would be crushed if I damaged an expensive timepiece. 

Again, thanks for the information in this thread and looking forward to the arrival of DS-2

BTW, I see the resale value of Certina is dismal.


----------



## Tom-HK

yankeexpress said:


> Honestly the rest of the HAQ forum has not been one of the friendliest WUS forums to my mind for its generally poor treatment of the Precisionist movements


I'm guilty of this, so I apologise for making this forum an unfriendly place. It's true some of us might be able to find nicer things to say about certain movements and about the variety of entirely valid opinions that people may have about them. Then again, I keep my Precisionist in a box within a box inside a drawer. It has rubbed me the wrong way since before it arrived and as punishment it won't get to enjoy the sunshine with all the other watches when I open my drawer to shuffle papers around!

Edit: The Certina DS-2 rocks, though, and I envy you for your purchase (and shall channel the negative feelings generated by that envy into yet more bitterness towards my Precisionist!).


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> Edit: The Certina DS-2 rocks, though, and I envy you for your purchase (and shall channel the negative feelings generated by that envy into yet more bitterness towards my Precisionist!).


No need for that Tom. Just get out the plastic and SPEND! You know it makes sense.


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> No need for that Tom. Just get out the plastic and SPEND! You know it makes sense.


I'm done for this year, Chris. For real.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I'm done for this year, Chris. For real.


Fair enough. You're certainly not lacking in a choice of what to wear.


----------



## yankeexpress

Enjoying my bargain HAQ from f29


----------



## ronalddheld

Due to the length of thsi thread, do people want me to delete off topic posts?


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Due to the length of thsi thread, do people want me to delete off topic posts?


That should keep you busy for some time! No objection here.


----------



## hurricaneskx08

Hi there guys, 

I'm thinking of getting this. Does anyone know cheap dealers in the UK? I know I can get it for £505, but any cheaper?

Secondly, the green 4th hand, is it possible to not use this or does it constantly spin round? I think it might be more appropriate if this isn't always spinning round. 

Thanks


----------



## chris01

Sebastian Chan Fong said:


> Hi there guys,
> 
> I'm thinking of getting this. Does anyone know cheap dealers in the UK? I know I can get it for £505, but any cheaper?
> 
> Secondly, the green 4th hand, is it possible to not use this or does it constantly spin round? I think it might be more appropriate if this isn't always spinning round.
> 
> Thanks


I'm not trying to be a smart-ass but if you take the (considerable) time to read right through this thread you'll find just about everything you could ever need to know about this watch, including how to find a good deal, how it works, and do you really want one.

In brief, my answers to your 4 questiions are no, yes, yes, no. PM me for help with 1 & 2.


----------



## Sam K

Didn't discover this thread until after I bought mine, but the impressions here just confirm that I got a good watch  

I will just add that to me, the 1/100 hand does serve the purpose of giving the chronograph the sweeping feel of a mechanical watch. I quite like it.


----------



## chris01

Now for the big one, 480 days of timing:









Here's the key:
1. Vertical blue bars are the daily variations from the starting setting, plotted against the RH axis. Final value +3.1 seconds.
2. The red dots below the zero axis show the days when the watch was worn (daytime only).
3. The purple line is the cumulative YTD SPY value, plotted against the LH axis. Final value +2.4 SPY.
4. The black dots with black on white labels show the variation for each calendar month, calculated as an annual SPY rate.
5. The light blue line shows the cumulative SPY over a period when the watch was worn full time. Final value +0.5 SPY.
5. The green line shows the cumulative SPY over a period when the watch was worn 6 days per week. Final value +3.1 SPY.
7. The brown line shows the cumulative SPY over a period when the watch was worn 3 days per week. Final value +5.8 SPY.
8. Starting at day 77 is a 9-day period when the watch was unworn (and untested). The rate over this period was about +8 SPY.

In its present state of tuning the watch performs almost perfectly if worn daily. Reduced wear gives an increased rate, and for only occasional wear it would benefit from a small rate reduction. The seasonal effect of ambient temperature seems small, considerably less than I see for my VHPs.

That is the end of this timing run, and I'll be reporting on something else quite soon.


----------



## gliderbee

ronalddheld said:


> Due to the length of thsi thread, do people want me to delete off topic posts?


Goor idea, and respect for your courage !

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

Now the bad news: it appears that the DS-2 chrono is not rate adjustable by the end user. I have made a few tests, using procedures similar to the official ones for other ETA TCs, and have found no measurable effect on the rate.

Here is the interior of my watch, showing the deeply recessed C+ and C- contacts. I have been told that these will only work with special test equipment, and that the markings are no longer present on current movements. This appears to be a similar case to that of the Breitling Aerospace B79.


----------



## webvan

Bad news indeed, and good luck trying to explain to a Swatch service center that you want the rate adjusted...


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> Now the bad news: it appears that the DS-2 chrono is not rate adjustable by the end user. I have made a few tests, using procedures similar to the official ones for other ETA TCs, and have found no measurable effect on the rate.
> 
> Here is the interior of my watch, showing the deeply recessed C+ and C- contacts. I have been told that these will only work with special test equipment, and that the markings are no longer present on current movements. This appears to be a similar case to that of the Breitling Aerospace B79.
> 
> View attachment 4655682


Bad news indeed.


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> Bad news indeed, and good luck trying to explain to a Swatch service center that you want the rate adjusted...


Yes, especially as it's within spec worn or unworn, and I'd like it slowed by 4 SPY so I don't need to wear it more than 1-3 times a week to keep within +/- 2 SPY. I don't think they'd take me very seriously.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Bad news indeed.


It looks nice, but there's an air of "nothing to see here, move along, folks". Interesting that there are no other obvious electrical connections.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> It looks nice, but there's an air of "nothing to see here, move along, folks". Interesting that there are no other obvious electrical connections.


There were a few items of interest to me: 27 jewels in a quartz movement and 5 coils.

The Seiko 9F uses only 9 jewels (but is only a 3 hander); I know chronos use more jewels than a simple 3 hander but that number in any quartz movement is surprising.

Are the 5 coils (I assume they're inductors) part of the TC design or related to the chrono section (maybe both?). I'm assuming those coils are associated with timing circuits but I don't quite get why so many.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> There were a few items of interest to me: 27 jewels in a quartz movement and 5 coils.
> 
> The Seiko 9F uses only 9 jewels (but is only a 3 hander); I know chronos use more jewels than a simple 3 hander but that number in any quartz movement is surprising.
> 
> Are the 5 coils (I assume they're inductors) part of the TC design or related to the chrono section (maybe both?). I'm assuming those coils are associated with timing circuits but I don't quite get why so many.


There's obviously a fair bit of technology in there. I'd assumed that the coils were associated with the stepping motors. There are 7 hands and a date, and quite a lot of them seem to be driven independently. <just checked> In fact the ETA web page says that there are 5 motors.

I'd guess:
1. Time: HMsD
2. Chrono: centre S
3. Chrono: centre S/100
4. Chrono: 30 min
5. Chrono: 12 hr

The TC and quartz stuff is all ceramic-encapsulated.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> There's obviously a fair bit of technology in there. I'd assumed that the coils were associated with the stepping motors. There are 7 hands and a date, and quite a lot of them seem to be driven independently. <just checked> In fact the ETA web page says that there are 5 motors.
> 
> I'd guess:
> 1. Time: HMsD
> 2. Chrono: centre S
> 3. Chrono: centre S/100
> 4. Chrono: 30 min
> 5. Chrono: 12 hr
> 
> The TC and quartz stuff is all ceramic-encapsulated.


That explains the 5 coils. Still quite surprised (and impressed) that any quartz movement would use that many jewels.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> That explains the 5 coils. Still quite surprised (and impressed) that any quartz movement would use that many jewels.


I'd guess (again) that the PowerDrive technology needs some robust precision bearings for its high-speed, high-resolution features.


----------



## derravile

Was lurking around for this thread for sometime, where is the cheapest place i can find?


----------



## tmathes

derravile said:


> Was lurking around for this thread for sometime, where is the cheapest place i can find?


If you're in North America, no where for all intents and purposes unless you can findit gray market. Certina isn't distributed officially in the US nor Canada. You typically have to get it from a European dealer.


----------



## ronalddheld

tmathes said:


> If you're in North America, no where for all intents and purposes unless you can findit gray market. Certina isn't distributed officially in the US nor Canada. You typically have to get it from a European dealer.


There is a store in Manhattan. Call them and see if they will ship to you.


----------



## derravile

tmathes said:


> If you're in North America, no where for all intents and purposes unless you can findit gray market. Certina isn't distributed officially in the US nor Canada. You typically have to get it from a European dealer.


I am from Asia, manage to place my order yesterday locally, price approximately $520
Also, thanks bro chris01 for the contact, did some comparison

can't get to get my hands on it


----------



## Memphis1

tmathes said:


> If you're in North America, no where for all intents and purposes unless you can findit gray market. Certina isn't distributed officially in the US nor Canada. You typically have to get it from a European dealer.


in the US there's two dealers

HOUR PASSION BOUTIQUE
112 West 34th Street
10120
NEW YORK, NY, United States

and

HOUR PASSION BOUTIQUE
ARIA Resort & Casino, 3730 Las Vegas Boulevard South
89158
LAS VEGAS, NV, United States

however, xxxxxx.com usually has the cheapest price (if you want full warranty and not gray market)


----------



## cpl

*Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph*

I'm curious about the ban on linking to commercial sites. Does that apply to this thread only?

There are plenty of other threads with links. Notably this one wouldn't exist without links https://www.watchuseek.com/f71/heads-up-i-saw-bargain-here-list-place-thread-4-a-1260410.html.


----------



## derravile

Unexpected received my package faster than usual


----------



## Reddleader68

Great post to say the least. I purchased the Certina PreciDrive Chrono in part based on the favorable reviews and the results from this post. Within days after receiving the watch, I set it to the time.gov website back in Nov of 2014 making sure the second hand clicked away in sync with the time on the website. I've been wearing the watch almost daily for 10-12 hours per day. Today, July 31st after 7 plus months of daily use, it's only off by +3 to +3.25 seconds. Very impressed. If anyone is thinking of buying one, I highly recommend it.


----------



## igna

There... all my this year savings in 7 pics.
Regards


----------



## igna

Some bad and good things in this few days with the DS-2:

The seconds hand visibility is compromised by high traffic: All 4 central hands at some point shades the seconds hand. The minute hand when its close to 25~35 minutes and the hour between 5~7 hours make the seconds lecture hard or impossible. The 2 chrono ones can be put out if interference by starting the chrono and stooping them at 8s 80/100 (or other combination). But then, the dial becomes overloaded with hands, and its distracting for reading the time.

The minute hand runs over the minute marks, so the current minute its not pointed but shaded. I'm not very used to this indication way, and sometimes I have to check twice. I understand there is room needed for the 1/100 scale, so minute markers are moved into a smaller circle.

Dial termination its fine, having some details (only visible when looking with a magnifying glass).

The overall look its great, the strap is really nice, so its the case back with the turtle logo. It has the IAHH so it will be my travel watch. Lume is scarce but its visible early in the morning as eyes are very sensible in the night.

In resume: I really like it. If I had the option to tell the maker what I would change: Swap the seconds hands, making the small one be the chrono and the big one the watch one, and shorten a bit the minute hand.

I will start an accuracy tracking, using the EM pulse + NTP, reporting monthly. 

Regards, 
Igna.


----------



## GlennO

Unfortunately the L2L length on these is a bit long for me, but I just noticed that there is now a Ti version which looks very nice and may be of interest to some. Sorry if it's old news, but I haven't seen it before.


----------



## chris01

GlennO said:


> Unfortunately the L2L length on these is a bit long for me, but I just noticed that there is now a Ti version which looks very nice and may be of interest to some. Sorry if it's old news, but I haven't seen it before.


When the DS-2 first appeared on Certina's web site, 2 years ago, there was a Ti model included in the model lineup. However, this came and went a couple of times before the current version appeared for real. Buying one today I'd have a really difficult choice between Ti, which I much prefer over steel, and the dial/hand colour, which I don't like nearly as much as my anthracite model. Certina seem to have only one Ti model in each of the model ranges, rather limiting the choice.


----------



## webvan

Yep, Ti is NICE! Light, subtle color, can be touched up easily. There seems to be a rather large gap between the end link and the bracelet? Looks like an old stretched bracelet :-(


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> Yep, Ti is NICE! Light, subtle color, can be touched up easily. There seems to be a rather large gap between the end link and the bracelet? Looks like an old stretched bracelet :-(


There's something not right about that. If you tilt the bracelet on my steel watch upwards, towards the crystal, the gap does appear to widen a bit but nothing like the photo. Also, the centre links don't look polished, but similar to the brushed edges.


----------



## Sabresoft

A quick scan of the current Certina website reveals the following models that are tagged as chronometers:

*DS-8 Chrono Moon Phase* (42 mm) (Thermoline G10.962 BH with optional moon phase) 1 sec chrono

*DS Eagle Chronograph GMT *(46 mm) (Thermoline G10.962 BF PreciDrive) 1 second chronograph
*
DS Eagle 3-Hand* (44 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)*

DS Podium Big Size Chronograph* (44 mm) (Thermoline 251.264 CEN PreciDrive) 1/100 sec Chronograph

*DS Podium Big Size Chronograph GMT* (42 mm) (Thermoline G10.962 BF PreciDrive) 1 second chronograph

*DS Podium Big Size Aluminium Chronograph GMT* (42 mm) (as above)

*DS Podium Sport Chronograph* (42 mm) (Thermoline G10.712 CD PreciDrive) 1/10 sec chronograph

*DS-2 Chronograph* (41 mm) (Thermoline 251.264 CEN PreciDrive) 1/100 sec Chrono

*DS-2 3-Hand* (40 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

*DS Podium Chronograph *(40 mm) (Thermoline G10.712 CD PreciDrive) 1/10 sec chronograph

DS Podium 3-Hand (38 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

DS Podium Square 3-Hand (38.3 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

*DS Podium Square Chronograph* (37.7 mm) (Thermoline G10.712 CD PreciDrive) 1/10 sec chronograph

DS First Ceramic Chronograph (Thermoline G10.712 CD PreciDrive) 1/10 sec chronograph

DS First Ceramic 3-Hand (41 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

*DS Action Chronograph* (43 mm) (Thermoline G10.212 PDRP PreciDrive) 1/10 sec chronograph

*DS Action 3-Hand* (41 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

DS-4 3-Hand (37 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

DS-4 Big Size 3-Hand (40 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

DS Caimano 3-Hand (38 mm) (Flatline E63.111 PreciDrive?, Flatline E64.111 PreciDrive?)

*And then the big mystery:*

DS Multi-8 (42 mm) (I cannot find a PreciDrive or standard Thermoline with a single digital display. The Flatline E49.341 is the only movement that I can find that matches the display layout, and it is standard quartz as far as I can see - so why Certina calls this a chronometer is a mystery).

I have tried to match watches and movements as best I can with the patchy information on the Certina site. The ones in bold I am fairly certain are chronometer grade (even if not COSC certified). Underlined watches show "PreciDrive" on the display. The others I am assuming are based on their tagging on the site, but as there is little clear info I am not comfortable saying that for sure they are.

It is possible that some or all of these watches use slightly different caliber numbers, because when i checked the Tissot T-Touch range they had various different movements, with number similar to the E48.341 that is shown in the ETA catalogue, but none were the same. Also ChristopherWard uses calibers that are not shown in the current catalogue (perhaps they have bought up a supply of older movements). Who knows?

The DS-8 Chrono Moon Phase looks interesting, just simply because it is different from the others, with an added complication.


----------



## Sabresoft

I have been finding some better info on some of the movements and have been updating the list above as I found them.


----------



## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> I have been finding some better info on some of the movements and have been updating the list above as I found them.


I wish you the best of luck with this. I have abandoned attempts to maintain my own PreciDrive table, as the available information is so patchy and unreliable. The best source of which movement is in which model is a scan of the online dealers, some of whom post quite detailed info (correct or not, who knows?).

Certina's new 'Chronometer' tag is a bit weird; what does it mean? All PreciDrive movements are claimed to better the COSC quartz requirement (subject to wear/temperature) and, for example, the 17 DS-2 chronograph models are all marked as chronometers. Yet only the LE version comes with a COSC certificate.

It appears that Certina will eventually use PD in all their quartz range, so for me the only interest is in which ones have an independent hour hand (2 chronos, I think), a perpetual calendar (none), and are user-adjustable (none, probably).


----------



## Sabresoft

chris01 said:


> I wish you the best of luck with this. I have abandoned attempts to maintain my own PreciDrive table, as the available information is so patchy and unreliable. The best source of which movement is in which model is a scan of the online dealers, some of whom post quite detailed info (correct or not, who knows?).


I am swamped at work, in the midst of doing a property acquisition, without having had any luck selling our current house, as we hurtle into yet another recession, so the last thing I should be doing is making frivolous lists, but somehow it has been therapeutic to a point.



chris01 said:


> Certina's new 'Chronometer' tag is a bit weird; what does it mean? All PreciDrive movements are claimed to better the COSC quartz requirement (subject to wear/temperature) and, for example, the 17 DS-2 chronograph models are all marked as chronometers. Yet only the LE version comes with a COSC certificate.


Strictly speaking a Swiss manufacturer should not claim "chronometer" status unless it passes COSC testing. That said, we know that the PreciDrive movements do much better than COSC (at least within certain limits, but for all practical purposes they are pretty darned good watches), so I can ignore the obvious "false claim" of chronometerhood (not a real word I know).



chris01 said:


> It appears that Certina will eventually use PD in all their quartz range, so for me the only interest is in which ones have an independent hour hand (2 chronos, I think), a perpetual calendar (none), and are user-adjustable (none, probably).


Well I like their commitment to making quartz watches that play at the accurate end of the spectrum. It has always puzzled me that higher end manufacturers would sell standard quartz at inflated prices, when for very little cost they could sell a truly superior product, that would justify a higher price. Many have of course taken the opposite tack and just retreated into mechanicals only.

Of the ETA PreciDrive chronograph movements, the Thermoline 251.474 ZA, 251.274 CF, 251.264 BD, 251.294 FH, 251.294 JH and G10.962 BF have the time zone feature. The other six chronograph movements don't seem to have that feature.

Of the 12 3-Hand PreciDrive movements, none have the timezone feature.

Of the Certina DS range only the DS-8 Multi has perpetual calendar, and via the digital display, time zone features, but this movement (Flatline E49.341) is not PreciDrive or PowerDrive, so not sure why they call that model a Chronometer.


----------



## GlennO

Sabresoft said:


> Of the Certina DS range only the DS-8 Multi has perpetual calendar, and via the digital display, time zone features, but this movement (Flatline E49.341) is not PreciDrive or PowerDrive, so not sure why they call that model a Chronometer.


Given that this statement is in Certina's FAQ:

"At Certina, all quartz chronometers are equipped with the innovative Precidrive™ movement which, with a deviation of +/- 10 seconds per year, easily achieves the required precision ratings".

I decided to send an email to Certina's UK brand manager asking if it applies to the Multi-8, and if not, how it achieves the chronometer rating. If I get a response I'll post it here.

I am most interested in the DS First Ceramic and have got my eye on the Ti model. It may be one of the few (or only?) reasonably affordable HAQ divers in current production. It's a shame it doesn't have desirable features such as a perpetual calendar or independent hour hand, but neither do the much more expensive GS and non-chrono Breitling divers. I'm tempted to get one and see how it performs.


----------



## dicioccio

Thanks you Glenn, finally a good diver with HAQ characteristics and not so expensive !!!

I hope this lineup will include more models !


----------



## chris01

A strange occurrence ...

I've been timing my DS-2 daily and it's been steady around +4.5 SPY with daily wear. Then, last week, I casually noticed that the Big Ben chimes appeared to be nearly a minute early. I checked my watch and found that it had lost 46 seconds during the day. With no obvious cause, I guessed that the battery was dying, with no EOL indication from the second hand. I checked it twice the next day and found no further change - still 46 seconds slow. I reset the watch and over the last 7 days it has resumed its +4.5 SPY. Very odd!


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> A strange occurrence ...
> 
> I've been timing my DS-2 daily and it's been steady around +4.5 SPY with daily wear. Then, last week, I casually noticed that the Big Ben chimes appeared to be nearly a minute early. I checked my watch and found that it had lost 46 seconds during the day. With no obvious cause, I guessed that the battery was dying, with no EOL indication from the second hand. I checked it twice the next day and found no further change - still 46 seconds slow. I reset the watch and over the last 7 days it has resumed its +4.5 SPY. Very odd!


I've noticed similar behavior with batteries near the movement's cut-off voltage with wall clocks and sometimes watches. If the watch wasn't worn for some period of time, like overnight (or if the room cools overnight for a wall clock), the battery cools just enough for some voltage droop so the movement stutters and hence loses time.

If it's not hard, pop the back open and see if the battery is low with a multi-meter. I'm betting it's just the battery, hopefully it's not the movement. I found the user manual for the DS-2 chrono and it's supposed to have a EOL circuit. It either is a flaky design, a bum unit or maybe a contact issue (maybe a battery leaking?). Just some thoughts.


----------



## chris01

GlennO said:


> Given that this statement is in Certina's FAQ:
> 
> "At Certina, all quartz chronometers are equipped with the innovative Precidrive™ movement which, with a deviation of +/- 10 seconds per year, easily achieves the required precision ratings".
> 
> I decided to send an email to Certina's UK brand manager asking if it applies to the Multi-8, and if not, how it achieves the chronometer rating. If I get a response I'll post it here.
> 
> I am most interested in the DS First Ceramic and have got my eye on the Ti model. It may be one of the few (or only?) reasonably affordable HAQ divers in current production. It's a shame it doesn't have desirable features such as a perpetual calendar or independent hour hand, but neither do the much more expensive GS and non-chrono Breitling divers. I'm tempted to get one and see how it performs.


It seems to me that Certina's marketing department has been scattering "CHRONOMETER" across their web site like confetti. That first statement may be true if they have indeed incorrectly used the term on some of their watches. Otherwise it should read "all watches equipped with PD are chronometers", if we can define what they mean by the word.

The Multi-8 (ETA E49.351 - not currently listed by ETA) appeared in 2011, long before PreciDrive, and I'm not aware of any current ETA ana-digi movement that is TC. Breitlings are not really ETA these days.

The DS First Ceramic seems to have the ETA 955.112 which is not PD or even an older TC.

I wouldn't buy either of these two without getting some well-qualified answers from Certina.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I've noticed similar behavior with batteries near the movement's cut-off voltage with wall clocks and sometimes watches. If the watch wasn't worn for some period of time, like overnight (or if the room cools overnight for a wall clock), the battery cools just enough for some voltage droop so the movement stutters and hence loses time.
> 
> If it's not hard, pop the back open and see if the battery is low with a multi-meter. I'm betting it's just the battery, hopefully it's not the movement. I found the user manual for the DS-2 chrono and it's supposed to have a EOL circuit. It either is a flaky design, a bum unit or maybe a contact issue (maybe a battery leaking?). Just some thoughts.


The battery seemed the most obvious cause, as I hadn't subjected the watch to any violence. It's been worn daily for the last 2 months, with only odd breaks. The battery is 22 months old (as is the watch). I opened it a while ago, for an unsuccessful attempt at regulation, and I think I'll let it run for a while longer, with daily timing, before poking around. BTW, I did check the security of the battery clamp while it was open.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> The battery seemed the most obvious cause, as I hadn't subjected the watch to any violence. It's been worn daily for the last 2 months, with only odd breaks. The battery is 22 months old (as is the watch). I opened it a while ago, for an unsuccessful attempt at regulation, and I think I'll let it run for a while longer, with daily timing, before poking around. BTW, I did check the security of the battery clamp while it was open.


Two years is the stated life of the battery so you're close to the limit. If it was running when you bought the watch (I'm assuming it's on the OE battery) that might explain it.

As for the clamp, I don't doubt that it's tight but if there's some kind of schmutz/crud (highly technical terms, use only if you have an advanced engineering degree!) on the battery or the metal contacts it could be an issue. Dirty contacts/connectors is an item see often troubleshooting electronics (I'm an analog chip designer plus part-time lab rat in my position at work, wasted too much time on those items while troubleshooting boards).


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> The battery seemed the most obvious cause, as I hadn't subjected the watch to any violence. It's been worn daily for the last 2 months, with only odd breaks. The battery is 22 months old (as is the watch). I opened it a while ago, for an unsuccessful attempt at regulation, and I think I'll let it run for a while longer, with daily timing, before poking around. BTW, I did check the security of the battery clamp while it was open.


_"as I hadn't subjected the watch to any violence"

_You do realize you can get arrested in some locales for this._ :-d
_


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Two years is the stated life of the battery so you're close to the limit. If it was running when you bought the watch (I'm assuming it's on the OE battery) that might explain it.
> 
> As for the clamp, I don't doubt that it's tight but if there's some kind of schmutz/crud (highly technical terms, use only if you have an advanced engineering degree!) on the battery or the metal contacts it could be an issue. Dirty contacts/connectors is an item see often troubleshooting electronics (I'm an analog chip designer plus part-time lab rat in my position at work, wasted too much time on those items while troubleshooting boards).
> 
> _"as I hadn't subjected the watch to any violence"
> _You do realize you can get arrested in some locales for this._ :-d
> _


Yes, they claim 'more than 2 years' and I'm expecting to be the first person here to report a dead battery, as nobody else reported buying one before I started this thread. The AD ordered it from Certina for me so it was all very new. I hardly use the chrono so it may do a bit better than expected. Having opened it once, I'm in no hurry to repeat it as it's very easy to slip and scratch the back. Certina claim an EOL function but it won't be easy to notice the little sub dial skipping a beat. That's the other reason I haven't changed the battery - I want to see EOL!

I'm quite gentle with my watches but I have given it a stern talking to when the unworn rate drifted up a bit too much.


----------



## Chrisjpark

Read this whole thread with a lot of interest and definitely ready to make the purchase. Other half is treating me for my 40th. Only decision is which colour. Green, red or the Ti model. Would be interested to hear any views on the titanium Over the steel. 

Also interested to hear any recommended sellers. I am in UK and aware of Juan having read through this thread but he does not have the colours I want in stock. 

Thanks to Chris and all the other posters. This is a great thread for anyone with an interest in this watch.


----------



## chris01

Chrisjpark said:


> Read this whole thread with a lot of interest and definitely ready to make the purchase. Other half is treating me for my 40th. Only decision is which colour. Green, red or the Ti model. Would be interested to hear any views on the titanium Over the steel.
> 
> Also interested to hear any recommended sellers. I am in UK and aware of Juan having read through this thread but he does not have the colours I want in stock.
> 
> Thanks to Chris and all the other posters. This is a great thread for anyone with an interest in this watch.


Another recruit! Have you asked Juan about whichever one you may choose? He can probably get it for you, as he's a Certina AD.


----------



## Chrisjpark

Hi Chris. I'm waiting for Juan to come back to me with wait times etc... He's also checking on prices of additional leather strap to go with the stainless steel one. I have a UK dealer who has watch in stock but they a bit more money than Juan. 

Can you recall if there has been any comments throughout this thread on the Ti model?


----------



## chris01

Chrisjpark said:


> Hi Chris. I'm waiting for Juan to come back to me with wait times etc... He's also checking on prices of additional leather strap to go with the stainless steel one. I have a UK dealer who has watch in stock but they a bit more money than Juan.
> 
> Can you recall if there has been any comments throughout this thread on the Ti model?


He's a good man - tries hard to get your business.

I don't remember anything about the Ti version. It's relatively new and many people seem to prefer the weight and 'quality feel' of steel. Personally, I'd like one. It's bound to be a bit more scratchable than S/S, but even the polished steel centre links mark very easily and I brushed mine.


----------



## Chrisjpark

Thanks Chris. I think the weight of the ss would feel a bit better but as haven't worn a watch for a while was a bit worried it would be too heavy. I like the brushed look of stainless steel which I think the watch has on outer links and case. 

Will wait for Juan to come back to me on Monday and see what he can offer.


----------



## Igorek

Horademoda.com doesn't sell Certina anymore?


----------



## Chrisjpark

Never tried horademoda.


----------



## chris01

Chrisjpark said:


> Thanks Chris. I think the weight of the ss would feel a bit better but as haven't worn a watch for a while was a bit worried it would be too heavy. I like the brushed look of stainless steel which I think the watch has on outer links and case.
> 
> Will wait for Juan to come back to me on Monday and see what he can offer.


The steel weighs 160g with full bracelet. It's my heaviest watch but I don't find it all uncomfortable. It has half links so it should be a reasonable fit for anyone. I had a Ti Astron chrono that was bigger but only weighed 114g. Full links only and it was never comfortable.

I find my now fully-brushed bracelet looks tidier than the part-polished original. And I've stopped obsessing about micro-scratches.


----------



## petethegeek

chris01 said:


> I find my now fully-brushed bracelet looks tidier than the part-polished original.


Can I ask if you brushed it yourself Chris? How does it go with the - presumably still polished - case?

I must admit I haven't worn my bracelet yet, indeed it's still stickered up. But that's more becouae I think the watch looks great on the Hadley Roma silicone strap I bought having seen someone else's on this forum.


----------



## chris01

petethegeek said:


> Can I ask if you brushed it yourself Chris? How does it go with the - presumably still polished - case?
> 
> I must admit I haven't worn my bracelet yet, indeed it's still stickered up. But that's more becouae I think the watch looks great on the Hadley Roma silicone strap I bought having seen someone else's on this forum.


Yes, and it wasn't very difficult. When I'd finished brushing the whole bracelet (I didn't touch the polished sides) it all looked much the same as the original link edges. No big deal vs the watch, as that's a mixture of polished and brushed. It wasn't noticeably marked, so I left it untouched. TBH the hardest bit was getting the bracelet off and on again. I think it just looks better, as the polished centre links are too wide IMO. Some of the straps are rather good - I liked the red/black one with the red handed watch - but I never wear a strap so my bracelets have to be just right.


----------



## Igorek

Which stores now sell Certina?


----------



## chris01

Igorek said:


> Which stores now sell Certina?


I can offer a couple of answers to that.

I can suggest my supplier (send me a PM), whom I would certainly buy from again, and who has supplied a fair number of forum members.

Otherwise, Google the part number of the watch you're after, and check out any dealers on the Certina web site to be sure that they are ADs, then contact them to see if they will ship to you.

You aren't likely to find it easy to buy in person from a US dealer.


----------



## GlennO

Yes, well I received a reply regarding the Multi-8 which confirms what you said:

I apologise for my late answer due to a business trip abroad. The DS-8 Multi has a Quartz ETA movement (E49.351), 8 functions, analog-digital, but not equipped with a precidrive movement yet. Alternatively, the DS-8 Moonphase has a precidrive movement. With 8 functions, the watch manual is useful to master this watch entirely and I enclosed the pdf file for you.

He made no comment about the chronometer rating. I've just replied and asked to confirm the movement in the DS First Ceramic.

Edit: Got an immediate reply:

Regarding your request, DS First Ceramic Chronograph has an ETA Quartz movement 251.262, DS First Ceramic 3 hands has an ETA Quartz movement 955.112.

:-(


----------



## chris01

GlennO said:


> Yes, well I received a reply regarding the Multi-8 which confirms what you said:
> 
> I apologise for my late answer due to a business trip abroad. The DS-8 Multi has a Quartz ETA movement (E49.351), 8 functions, analog-digital, but not equipped with a precidrive movement yet. Alternatively, the DS-8 Moonphase has a precidrive movement. With 8 functions, the watch manual is useful to master this watch entirely and I enclosed the pdf file for you.
> 
> He made no comment about the chronometer rating. I've just replied and asked to confirm the movement in the DS First Ceramic.
> 
> Edit: Got an immediate reply:
> 
> Regarding your request, DS First Ceramic Chronograph has an ETA Quartz movement 251.262, DS First Ceramic 3 hands has an ETA Quartz movement 955.112.
> 
> :-(


We might see the C-word disappearing from some of their watches.

Still, the chronograph does have an independently-adjustable hour hand.


----------



## GlennO

chris01 said:


> We might see the C-word disappearing from some of their watches.
> 
> Still, the chronograph does have an independently-adjustable hour hand.


I'm debating whether to reply again and express my disappointment at them plastering chronometer labels on all of their quartz watches on the website, including the non PD models. It's not going to achieve anything for me, but I do feel that it's misleading.


----------



## chris01

GlennO said:


> I'm debating whether to reply again and express my disappointment at them plastering chronometer labels on all of their quartz watches on the website, including the non PD models. It's not going to achieve anything for me, but I do feel that it's misleading.


Perhaps a more oblique approach ... pleased to see so many chronometers in their range ... interested in the performance data ... certification ... warranty issues ... blah blah.

You might embarrass them into sorting it all out. I wonder why a Swatch company is allowed to get away with such a crappy web site. Are they so determined to position themselves down market from Omega and Longines? Great shame, as I think their range is excellent value for money. And, of course, they are the only SG company offering TC watches for which they are prepared to even mention performance numbers. Omega seem determined to keep quiet about this issue.


----------



## GlennO

chris01 said:


> Perhaps a more oblique approach ... pleased to see so many chronometers in their range ... interested in the performance data ... certification ... warranty issues ... blah blah.
> 
> You might embarrass them into sorting it all out. I wonder why a Swatch company is allowed to get away with such a crappy web site. Are they so determined to position themselves down market from Omega and Longines? Great shame, as I think their range is excellent value for money. And, of course, they are the only SG company offering TC watches for which they are prepared to even mention performance numbers. Omega seem determined to keep quiet about this issue.


I can't claim that my pestering contributed but I noticed today that the website has been revised. All chronometer labels are gone.


----------



## dicioccio

What really annoys me is the way the watch, in general, are presented: not for what they are or for what they offer, but for what the manufacturer wants them to be seen.

So it appears as if a mechanical one could have a better accuracy than a quartz and characteristics like thermocompensation, perpetual calendar or independent hour hand are barely shown...


----------



## chris01

GlennO said:


> I can't claim that my pestering contributed but I noticed today that the website has been revised. All chronometer labels are gone.


Well done! You seem to have poked them with a sharp stick and woken them up. I note that even the LE DS-2 chronograph has lost COSC from its feature list. What next, I wonder, and why don't they just get someone who knows and cares about their watches to revamp the whole site?


----------



## igna

chris01 said:


> Well done! You seem to have poked them with a sharp stick and woken them up. I note that even the LE DS-2 chronograph has lost COSC from its feature list. What next, I wonder, and why don't they just get someone who knows and cares about their watches to revamp the whole site?


Its strange... what you ask has to be noticed from watchmakers and other people working in Certina. Because at least few of them has to understand HAQ terminology, specifications and so on. There must be at least one person taking decisions like "this new model will carry a precidrive instead a normal quartz". Does this people later check the webpage?


----------



## Hans Moleman

dicioccio said:


> What really annoys me is the way the watch, in general, are presented: not for what they are or for what they offer, but for what the manufacturer wants them to be seen.
> 
> So it appears as if a mechanical one could have a better accuracy than a quartz and characteristics like thermocompensation, perpetual calendar or independent hour hand are barely shown...


That is an interesting observation.

I think it boils down to the fact that 'perpetual calendar' takes a while to explain. It takes the consumer some effort to understand and value.

The consumer does not have that time.

It is far more effective to deliver bite size chunks like a nice polish.


----------



## ronalddheld

Hans Moleman said:


> That is an interesting observation.
> 
> I think it boils down to the fact that 'perpetual calendar' takes a while to explain. It takes the consumer some effort to understand and value.
> 
> The consumer does not have that time.
> 
> It is far more effective to deliver bite size chunks like a nice polish.


You mean the visual analogue of "sound bytes"?


----------



## MrDC

Just got my DS-2 on Saturday. I got the Titanium model (mainly because I liked the look of the red compared to the green and yellow) 

It's an absolute beaut!


----------



## chris01

MrDC said:


> Just got my DS-2 on Saturday. I got the Titanium model (mainly because I liked the look of the red compared to the green and yellow)
> 
> It's an absolute beaut!


Excellent! Please report on its accuracy if you have the patience and the means to test it. Also I'd like to hear how the Ti stands up to normal use. The steel is pretty good except for the central polished links that are a real scratch magnet.


----------



## MrDC

chris01 said:


> Excellent! Please report on its accuracy if you have the patience and the means to test it. Also I'd like to hear how the Ti stands up to normal use. The steel is pretty good except for the central polished links that are a real scratch magnet.


Hi Chris,

Will let you know how the titanium fares, although I imagine I will be changing the strap on this relatively frequently. It's my first real watch purchase (of many hopefully) so I'm a bit of a novice. How do you measure the accuracy?


----------



## chris01

MrDC said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> How do you measure the accuracy?


You'll probably want to enjoy your new watch for a while before you start getting into all that. This sticky will give you an idea of what can be done, but don't take it all too seriously just yet. We don't want to put you off collecting watches when you've only just started.  Come back with questions when you're ready.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html


----------



## Junior1

Just took delivery of the LE version from Juan. (thanks Chris)
Very nice piece for the price.
Looking to go with a perforated leather/rally strap for a more racing feel
IMO anyone in the US looking to save 2-300 off list go through the contact in Spain. (AD, all papers/full warranty)


----------



## Junior1

Stock bracelet lasted about a day. Here's a few shots with Nato's and a rubber Hadley Roma...


----------



## petethegeek

I rather like those 'asymmetric' Natos. May I ask where you got them from?


----------



## Junior1

petethegeek said:


> I rather like those 'asymmetric' Natos. May I ask where you got them from?


Sure, Nato Straps Co. "Moto Italia"


----------



## petethegeek

Thanks for that. There's certainly no shortage of choice.


----------



## Junior1

I like the Tag Carrera look on it as well...


----------



## chris01

An update to my report of a sudden loss of timekeeping

Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph - Page 51

Having reset the watch and timed it with daily wear, it has shown no further strange behaviour:









I've had it exactly 2 years (yesterday) and it looks as if the battery still has some life in it (famous last words!).


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> An update to my report of a sudden loss of timekeeping
> 
> Certina DS 2 PreciDrive Chronograph - Page 51
> 
> Having reset the watch and timed it with daily wear, it has shown no further strange behaviour:
> 
> View attachment 5939146
> 
> 
> I've had it exactly 2 years (yesterday) and it looks as if the battery still has some life in it (famous last words!).


Nice, steady performance (blip excepted). It's good to see that ETA are still delivering with the Precidrive movements, as they were with their earlier TC offerings. The loss of features (IAHH, perpetual calendar) and need to send the watch back for rate adjustment are not very welcome developments, of course, so it is as well that ETA's current movements are still highly accurate and now more affordable. The 251.264 movement has now turned up in watches by Certina, Christopher Ward and Invicta, so you definitely don't need Breitling money to get a new HAQ any more.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> Nice, steady performance (blip excepted). It's good to see that ETA are still delivering with the Precidrive movements, as they were with their earlier TC offerings. The loss of features (IAHH, perpetual calendar) and need to send the watch back for rate adjustment are not very welcome developments, of course, so it is as well that ETA's current movements are still highly accurate and now more affordable. The 251.264 movement has now turned up in watches by Certina, Christopher Ward and Invicta, so you definitely don't need Breitling money to get a new HAQ any more.


At least the DS-2 still has the independent hour hand. The 251.264 seems to be the only PD that has it. Perp.Cal. seems to be gone (forever?), while the lack of user intervention seems inevitable with modern technology. With the proliferation, at least from Certina, of numerous very ordinary watches that only have the distinction of high accuracy, this forum might need its rules tightened a bit so that only interestingly complicated, accurate watches are discussed.


----------



## tmathes

*My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Hi everyone,

I pulled the trigger last week on the new for 2015 Certina DS-8, their new moonphase chronograph based on the ETA G10.962 Precidrive movement in other chronographs This model doesn't have the 1/100th second feature of the DS-2 but adds a moon phase dial in the upper left hand corner. I checked ETA's web site, the variant of the movement isn't listed so I'm guessing Certina for now has exclusive use of the movement.

This is the Certina web page with my model:

DS-8 Chrono Moon Phase | Certina

I ordered it from Onewatchforyou.com last Wednesday night, shipped Thursday and made it from Spain to central North Carolina with 3 working days. Impressive shipping speed! Juan was a top-flight guy to deal with, he provided several images of it before I bought it and answered every question in great detail. Thanks Juan!! I can heartily recommend him to US buyers, this transaction was barely more difficult than buying domestically. The only difference is paying UPS their customs/import fees and duties, which amounted to $25.38.

Now about the watch itself. I'll let the pictures speak for themselves.

























The brown leather strap came with a butterfly deployant from the factory. Nice touch I though:









One nifty touch to the strap I've not seen before: there's a small loop that prevents the sliding strap keeper loop from moving too far forward (it's the white loop in the upper part of the image below). I wasn't sure what that as for at first but it's a nice touch. The strap is nicely done, looks to be the equivalent quality of a Duke Hirsch strap.









The watch is much nicer in person than the renders you find on-line. Why product companies do this is beyond me. The watch 'wears' a bit larger than I expected due to the thin bezel but it's not out ridiculously oversized. If you have an approximately 7" wrist or larger, the watch looks good on your wrist. Anything smaller than 6 3/4" and it gets a bit dodgy.

A few observations and quirks so far:

- The crown has 3 positions: closed (position 1, or P1), middle (position 2 or P2), and fully extended (position 3 or P3). P2 works like most any other quartz or mechanical watch, it allows you to do a quick date advance/reverse. In that position you can also make adjustments to the chrono hands if they're off (mine weren't) with the upper and lower pushers.

One interesting observation so far: the chrono sweep second hand seems to 'wobble' a bit even when not being used when I look at the dial periodically. Sometimes it's dead on the 12 marker, sometimes it's a bit left of center. It is not parallax error. The chrono sweep hand is motor driven so I have no idea why it does this. One 'trick' I did find is that if the sweep hand is a bit off, pull the crown to P2, that makes the sweep second hand do a 360 degree turn and it seems to get it re-centered. Strange but seems to do the trick.

- P3 hacks the movement, adjusts time as in any other watch and will manually advance the date between 12am and 3am. What is odd though is it will *not* move the moon phase. The moon phase is motor controlled, it is not mechanical in my other moon phase quartz (Seiko SRX003). To adjust the moon phase, the watch must have the crown in P3 and you use the pushers to adjust it.

This is one of my first beefs with the design: first, you have to hack the movement to adjust the moon phase. It should have been the chrono adjust in P3 as that's a one-time thing and adjusting the moon phase will likely happen more often, that should be the P2 adjustment. The second beef is how to adjust the moon phase.

A stepper motor advances the moon wheel in what looks like quarter day increments and a single push does nothing to step the wheel one increment up/down. You have to hold it down and make sure you catch the proper 'stop' point you want to hit. Kind of a dumb idea in my book. I've hacked the movement a few times puttering around with it so I've not see the moon phase dial spinning yet. I assume it works but haven't seen it advancing on it's own yet. I'm also not sure yet if it moves in 6 hr. increments or full day increments (like my Seiko does).

Third beef is the short end of the sweep second hand hides the "0" point of the second indicator (bottom of the dial). Now I know why the Speedmaster-style location of the second hand is ideal; I wish ETA did the same here.

Some nifty things about the chrono: it has a lap feature like a digital watch.  Pressing the top pusher starts the chrono, a 2nd press stops it, bottom pusher resets the whole thing. Upper right dial is elapsed mintues, the big digital dial in that same subdial is elapsed hours. That subdial is motor driven too, when reset it doesn't move backward to "0" but will spin forward to get back to zero; slick to see it reset. When you press the lower pusher, the sweep second hand will stop but a 2nd push will jump the seconds hand (and minute/hour indicators if needed) to the present chrono time.

That's about it for now, I've not started any accuracy tests yet since I still need to get this moon phase setting right (don't forget, when I set the m/phase I have to stop the watch). If anyone has questions, pose them here and I'll try to get them answered best I can. I'm guessing there aren't many who own this watch (yet) and in particular few if any owners in the US since there are no Certain ADs here. They did recently pop up on US gray market web sites but the brown dial one has not to date.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

A very interesting watch. Can you explain exactly how each of the subdials works? They are all a bit unusual.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> A very interesting watch. Can you explain exactly how each of the subdials works? They are all a bit unusual.


Upper left is the moon phase. The moon/stars disk under the dial face is bigger than it seems, the white tick mark at the top/bottom of the subdial are fixed to the moon disk itself. The upper tick mark shows the exact day in the phase, the bottom tick mark is only visible when in 1st quarter. 3rd quarter or full moon (as show in the openings). From where we sit in the lunar cycle, no tick marks will show below, that should happen tomorrow at the earliest (14th day in the cycle). You can see in that subdial the white tick mark on top is between day 13 and 14 in the lunar cycle (it was around 10am EST when I took these shots, as you can see from the time on the dial).

Bottom subdial is the regular time sweep second hand.

Upper right dial is the elapsed chrono minutes and hours. The dial pointer itself is minutes and moves in discrete steps. The digital display at the 0 position is elapsed hours. It also moves in discrete steps. That's why I said those are motor driven and mechanically coupled to the chrono sweep hand.

What's quirky about this display is in two of the dials the 'sweeping' tick mark is underneath the dial, not above it. So the seconds subdial, for example, is the white tick mark in the images and sweeps below the dial. In the 2nd image you can make out a white mark that's at the 2-3 second position, that's the watch's seconds hand/pointer. The slits in the subdial are asymmetrical since they're just punched out areas from the dial face. Some of the metal had to be left there to keep the subdial in place.

Like I said, it's an interesting dial design in that respect.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> What's quirky about this display is in two of the dials the 'sweeping' tick mark is underneath the dial, not above it. So the seconds subdial, for example, is the white tick mark in the images and sweeps below the dial. In the 2nd image you can make out a white mark that's at the 2-3 second position, that's the watch's seconds hand/pointer. The slits in the subdial are asymmetrical since they're just punched out areas from the dial face. Some of the metal had to be left there to keep the subdial in place.
> 
> Like I said, it's an interesting dial design in that respect.


That explains the strange appearance. I had thought it had some special function, but it's just structural support.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> That explains the strange appearance. I had thought it had some special function, but it's just structural support.


Exactly, it's just the metal dial pieces not stamped out to 'float' the subdial segments.

As I thought, I have the moon phase segment off kilter. It did advance with normal operation, it's nearly at day 14 already but it's still in the 13th day. I have to hack the movement to reset the moon phase dial. This is why I said the moon phase adjust should have been in the P2 position and not P3. It's going to take some trial and error to get the moon dial correct as it's a clock, not just a counter like the date window. And that dial is really small plus the way the dial moves it's not easy to get spot on. The upside is once you get it right you never have to reset it until the battery is replaced.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Good write-up. Very detailed. And congratulations on the acquisition. I took a look at this watch in a shop a month or two back, but as I already have a DS-2 I wasn't minded to buy the DS-8. I do have a question, though: is the hour hand independently adjustable? From everything I have read, so far, it seems that it is not, but it would be good to know for sure.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> Good write-up. Very detailed. And congratulations on the acquisition. I took a look at this watch in a shop a month or two back, but as I already have a DS-2 I wasn't minded to buy the DS-8. I do have a question, though: is the hour hand independently adjustable? From everything I have read, so far, it seems that it is not, but it would be good to know for sure.


The 'quick set' feature is for the date only. Like you I thought the quickset was for the hour hand too but nope, you set this watch in the standard fashion, hour hand and minute hand are coupled.

The one that is a royal pain is the moon phase. I just set it a little while ago, I think I got it right this time. I'll find out tomorrow evening for sure (full moon in my time zone is 5:45pm tomorrow).

If I did set the moon phase correctly the movement accuracy test is underway. I won't do the rigorous test you do Tom but it'll give us a good idea how accurate this sample of Precidrive variant is.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Hi,

I have the same watch (black dial), with the same beefs - wobbely chrono seconds and the thing where the short end of it hides too much of the regular seconds "hand".
Have not tried to set the moonphase though.

Accuracy-wise it has drifted about a second in the first two months. Then after daylight saving it has been on the beat so far.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have the same watch (black dial), with the same beefs - wobbely chrono seconds and the thing where the short end of it hides too much of the regular seconds "hand".
> Have not tried to set the moonphase though.
> 
> Accuracy-wise it has drifted about a second in the first two months. Then after daylight saving it has been on the beat so far.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So I wasn't seeing things with the chrono hand. I find that so strange since it is a motor driven function. Not a big deal but being an engineer I'd like to understand why it does that.

If it drifted 1 sec. within 2 months then it's within their claimed 10 sec/year. I noticed their wording is not a spec but a 'target' for lack of a better term. If it's within a couple of seconds a month that's good enough for me. Overall I'm pleased so far.

I think I also got the moon phase adjusted correctly. To do it right, my guess is you need to set it at on a day with the full moon and at the time the calendar says full moon is. For example, full moon in my time zone is 5:45pm today (11/25) on the 14th day. I fudged a bit, I set it at 6:15pm yesterday for day 13, today it looks like it'll hit the day 14 mark late this afternoon. I wish the manual explained how to set that dial properly, it's nowhere near as simple as most moon phase dials. Most I know of, like in my Seiko and the grandfather floor clock in my home office only move in discrete day increments.


----------



## Crate410

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I have not seen or heard of this watch but it does look very nice. Will you give us a review of the moon phase function in 14 days or so? Also some more pics pls especially how the clasp closes!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Crate410 said:


> I have not seen or heard of this watch but it does look very nice. Will you give us a review of the moon phase function in 14 days or so? Also some more pics pls especially how the clasp closes!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm on vacation and the watch isn't with me right now. But the clasp is a standard butterfly deployant, they're easy to find online for images and instructions. There is nothing unusual about it.

I'll report on progress with accuracy of the movement over time.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Crate410 said:


> I have not seen or heard of this watch but it does look very nice. Will you give us a review of the moon phase function in 14 days or so? Also some more pics pls especially how the clasp closes!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can find some YouTube videos of a butterfly in action, just search for "closing butterfly deployant". You'll get lots of pics and vids that should make it clear. I'm not the biggest fan of butterflies on leather straps, I prefer single fold. They fit better for my wrist size and shape.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I find the wobbliness a bit annoying too. Mine tends to land between dead on and half a sec past/right of the twelve marker. I would rather have it (always dead on but if it must wobble) like yours because when I wear the watch on my left hand it falls in the half-a-second-above-12 position.
I got my watch as a replacement for another Certina model (Ds multi-8) which had almost been more in their repair shop in Switzerland than on my wrist over the past two years. If I hadn't been so tired by the Swatch-group service organization I think I'd probably would have made them try to fix this but now I can't really be bothered. And perhaps it is something "by design"? For whatever reason.

Otherwise it is a good looking watch that seems to keep time very well!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> I find the wobbliness a bit annoying too. Mine tends to land between dead on and half a sec past/right of the twelve marker. I would rather have it (always dead on but if it must wobble) like yours because when I wear the watch on my left hand it falls in the half-a-second-above-12 position.
> I got my watch as a replacement for another Certina model (Ds multi-8) which had almost been more in their repair shop in Switzerland than on my wrist over the past two years. If I hadn't been so tired by the Swatch-group service organization I think I'd probably would have made them try to fix this but now I can't really be bothered. And perhaps it is something "by design"? For whatever reason.
> 
> Otherwise it is a good looking watch that seems to keep time very well!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I luckily don't have anywhere that much wobble, mine didn't move off the 12 tick mark. I find this quirk strange, do other Precidrive moments do this?

On another topic, have you figured out if the moon phase dial is just regular clock or does track the time of the moon phases? For example, I set the dial, best I could, for the time of the full moon according to a moon calendar. Would the dial next month show the time of the full moon? I would think with the dial being motor driven instead of mechanical, like the date display, it would track the phase completely. Of not, if its just a 24 hr motor, I need to set it again.

I know I'm being too, ahem, anal but if they went to the trouble of building the feature I'd like to use it correctly. The manual is pretty bad in this regard. And I really detest setting it, its poorly thought out. I sent a request to Certina but expect no answer or a useless one at best. ETA is of no help, no listing of this movement at all.


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> On another topic, have you figured out if the moon phase dial is just regular clock or does track the time of the moon phases? For example, I set the dial, best I could, for the time of the full moon according to a moon calendar. Would the dial next month show the time of the full moon? I would think with the dial being motor driven instead of mechanical, like the date display, it would track the phase completely. Of not, if its just a 24 hr motor, I need to set it again.
> 
> I know I'm being too, ahem, anal but if they went to the trouble of building the feature I'd like to use it correctly. The manual is pretty bad in this regard. And I really detest setting it, its poorly thought out. I sent a request to Certina but expect no answer or a useless one at best. ETA is of no help, no listing of this movement at all.


The time between two full moons is on average 29 d 12 h 44 min 2.8016 s
Wikipedia
Since there are two moons on the dial, I expect the dial to make a complete turn in twice that period.

I guess It would be impossible to get a gear cut to exactly that rate, so an approximation is used, like 29.5 days.
And that would mean you need to readjust it after a few years.

If the dial is controlled electronically at exactly that rate, you'd be fine for the rest of your life.
I doubt that though.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Hans Moleman said:


> The time between two full moons is on average 29 d 12 h 44 min 2.8016 s
> Wikipedia
> Since there are two moons on the dial, I expect the dial to make a complete turn in twice that period.
> 
> I guess It would be impossible to get a gear cut to exactly that rate, so an approximation is used, like 29.5 days.
> And that would mean you need to readjust it after a few years.
> 
> If the dial is controlled electronically at exactly that rate, you'd be fine for the rest of your life.
> I doubt that though.


Even with a mechanical watch it's possible to do rather well with moonphase accuracy:
A Phase of Innovation
The relevance of 1 day in 128 years is of course rather debatable, but it's good to know it can be done.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

O


chris01 said:


> Even with a mechanical watch it's possible to do rather well with moonphase accuracy:
> A Phase of Innovation
> The relevance of 1 day in 128 years is of course rather debatable, but it's good to know it can be done.


In the mechanical world 59 day s disk with two moons seem to be fairly widespread.
An electronically drive moonphase should, in principle, do better.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

The last mark is 29 1/2 so I believe Hans Moleman might be right!
I have not touched the moon phase setting (in 3-4 months) and it does not need to be reset now anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

And I just remembered my GPS shows moon-phases.

That made me wonder, how do I get the moon phase? Accurate to the second please?

Only thing I can think of is the nautical almanac:
"The Online Nautical Almanac"

Shows ye: Things don't change much. Really.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Hans Moleman said:


> And I just remembered my GPS shows moon-phases.
> 
> That made me wonder, how do I get the moon phase? Accurate to the second please?
> 
> Only thing I can think of is the nautical almanac:
> "The Online Nautical Almanac"
> 
> Shows ye: Things don't change much. Really.


Which GPS watch shows moonphase?


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Hans Moleman said:


> I guess It would be impossible to get a gear cut to exactly that rate, so an approximation is used, like 29.5 days.





Well the is a mechanical watch with a moonphase accurate to one day in every 2.06 million years.
The 8 Most Accurate Moon Phase Wristwatches Today | Quill & Pad


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



ronalddheld said:


> Which GPS watch shows moonphase?


No, its not a watch. It is an ancient Garmin Emap. 16 years young by now.


----------



## Ard

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I like that a lot but it's a bit large for me, one of these days I'll take in another moon phase watch myself. I think they are cool


----------



## gangrel

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> Well the is a mechanical watch with a moonphase accurate to one day in every 2.06 million years.
> The 8 Most Accurate Moon Phase Wristwatches Today | Quill & Pad


Yes, that article's a good read. Hans, you're not using a single gear. They use 4 gears in combination in most of them. You get to play with complex fractions. I remember staying up too late and looking at the basic math. It wasn't hard to get to one day in a century or two, IIRC; I believe I started by converting the synodic period from days to seconds. That makes computing the error basically easy. Say your movement is off N seconds each synodic period. A fairly accurate estimate is there's 12 periods per calendar year, so you have 12N error per year. If N = 100, you're off 1200 seconds per year. With 86,400 seconds per day, you're off 1 day in 70 years...close enough for our purposes here. So for 1 day in 1000 years, you need to be off by about 10 seconds per month.

And actually, if you want to be REALLY technical...these watches are all incorrect, I believe. The synodic month is given as 29.530+ days, or 29 d 12 h 44 min 2.8016 s...but that's the average for full moon to full moon. The actual number varies, depending on where the Earth is in its orbit...and it's a large variance, from 29.2 to 29.9 days. I don't know if *anyone* takes that variance into account.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Accurate moon phase timing is a nicely interesting feature but I see two problems with most of those super-accurate models.

None of them is really the sort of watch any rational person would wear daily, so they'd have to live on a winder to maintain their moon display. What a miserable life for a highly-priced object of desire: having to rely on mechanical stimulation and only rarely feeling the warmth of a human wrist.

The other big issue is accuracy, not of timing but of lunar representation. Almost every moon phase watch and clock, at any price, uses the same basic design of a rotating disc viewed through a shaped aperture. The visible moon only looks like the Moon just either side of New and at Full. At other times it's completely wrong. Not even a straight terminator at the quarters. I wanted an MP watch for a long time but after a short period of use I was very disappointed with this feature.


----------



## CristobalGordo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I noticed this watch the other day here in Madrid and it really stood out. Very nice. I'm not a big quartz guy but moon phase is one complication that just makes more sense powered by a battery. As the poster above mentioned, either you wear an automatic moon phase every day or leave it on a winder or have to go through the trouble of setting it. I also like the fact that the normal seconds hand on this watch is just a discrete little hash mark. 
I actually tried it on. I have a small 6.5 inch wrist and 42mm is my absolute maximum but it didn't wear too big.
All three dials colors are nice but I prefer the gray. Anyway, tasteful choice and keep us posted about any issues, tips, or tricks you guys discover. Thanks for the write up.


----------



## CristobalGordo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> Accurate moon phase timing is a nicely interesting feature but I see two problems with most of those super-accurate models.
> 
> The visible moon only looks like the Moon just either side of New and at Full. At other times it's completely wrong. Not even a straight terminator at the quarters. I wanted an MP watch for a long time but after a short period of use I was very disappointed with this feature.


I like MP watches generally but, yes, that does bother me a little- they don't show how the moon actually looks much of the time. Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know a moon phase watch that DOES show how the moon really looks?

Edit: I'm going to start a thread about this on the public forum. Keep talking about the DS-8 here!


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



CristobalGordo said:


> I like MP watches generally but, yes, that does bother me a little- they don't show how the moon actually looks much of the time. Not to hijack the thread but does anyone know a moon phase watch that DOES show how the moon really looks?


If you look at the list of exotica that Tom posted there are a couple that do a decent job:

The 8 Most Accurate Moon Phase Wristwatches Today | Quill & PadSee:
*
Number 5: De Bethune DB28 Digitale
Number 2: Christiaan Van der Klaauw Real Moon Joure
*
The others are rubbish IMO.

If you want an MP clock, something like this one is not bad, for the price of a small house; the 'stars' are 0.1 carat diamonds:

Opus Temporis: Erwin Sattler

None of these are HAQ of course, although I think the clock would give many of our watches some serious competition.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Before I suggest we move on, perhaps the watches with spherical moons and a rotating shell will be more appealing?


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

CristobalGordo >>
I have about the same wrist size as you and I find the watch very good sizewise. There is a lot going on on the dial witch makes it wear kind of small I think. In a good way.
Originally mine came with a metal bracelet. Solid end links and over all good quality. It was imposaible for me to get a good size on it though so I now use a leather strap. If I were to buy a new one of these watches I'd get one with that from the start. Will save you a penny or two as well.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Hans Moleman said:


> The time between two full moons is on average 29 d 12 h 44 min 2.8016 s
> Wikipedia
> Since there are two moons on the dial, I expect the dial to make a complete turn in twice that period.
> 
> I guess It would be impossible to get a gear cut to exactly that rate, so an approximation is used, like 29.5 days.
> And that would mean you need to readjust it after a few years.
> 
> If the dial is controlled electronically at exactly that rate, you'd be fine for the rest of your life.
> I doubt that though.


The moon phase in this watch is controlled by a motor drive, it is not mechanically coupled to the time geartrain. It's also what makes setting the moon phase a pain, you can't move the dial in small increments with a single press of the pushers. There's a lag between pressing the buttons/pushers and when the dial moves, it's a cogging-like action when the dial starts to move. At first the movement isn't that great but I don't think many will have the dexterity to move the dial just a small bit (say 1/4 or 1/2 day). Stopping on the day tick mark takes a bit of trial and error. LIke I said, it's one of the oversights in the movement's design.

Looking at the moon phase dial since I set it it's looking to be just a regular 24 hr. clock but I won't know for sure until the next full moon. In the meantime, the watch hasn't gained/lost any time since I set it last (Nov. 25). So far so good. One thing I really like is the leather strap, it's one of the nicer straps I've had in a watch of this price. The butterfly clasp is a nice touch too, it's one of the more comfortable ones I've used.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I've noticed that if I push the lower pusher ("reset") the chrono-seconds hand wobbles a bit. It's like it is trying to start but changes it't mind and stays. But it happens every time. 
If I push it repeatedly and then try to start the chrono with the upper button, then I have to push that one a few times for the chrono to start!

Perhaps a software/firmware bug? Not very... ehrrmm... solid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> I've noticed that if I push the lower pusher ("reset") the chrono-seconds hand wobbles a bit. It's like it is trying to start but changes it't mind and stays. But it happens every time.
> If I push it repeatedly and then try to start the chrono with the upper button, then I have to push that one a few times for the chrono to start!
> 
> Perhaps a software/firmware bug? Not very... ehrrmm... solid.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just tried that with mine, I couldn't reproduce the 'stuck' problem with the upper pusher to start the chrono. What I noticed though with an extra push or two of the lower pusher after stopping the chrono second hand is it tends to recenter the chrono sweep second hand at the 12 position if it's not spot on. Another trick I found was pulling the crown to the middle position, forcing the chrono seconds hand to spin 360, will also usually recenter the chrono hand.

I reset the moon phase dial last night as it looks like that sub-dial is on a 24 hr. clock between visible tick marks. That unfortunately meant I had to reset the watch itself. Before I reset the moon phase it didn't gain/lose within the week since I last set the watch.

On an unrelated note, the instant updates to my subscribed threads on WUS don't seem to be working for me as of last Friday, I receive no alerts for updated posts made several days ago. Is it just my account or are others having the same issue?


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Are there any other 'accurate' (TC/RC/GPS) quartz watches with moon phase? The two most expensive Hoptroff CSACs have it but I can't think of any others.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> Are there any other 'accurate' (TC/RC/GPS) quartz watches with moon phase? The two most expensive Hoptroff CSACs have it but I can't think of any others.


Chris you want TC+RC/GPS moonphase watches. None that i know of. The Hoptroff pocket watch and No 16 are all of the CSAC ones I know.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Hmm... well, now I cannot reproduce it either. Perhaps I was a bit too quick on the pusher. Since it is a lag (as you mentioned above) between push and start (is that normal for a chrono btw?) I might have pushed it again too fast and consequently stopped it. I was hitting the lower pusher at fast pace and perhaps that got me going 

The other problem is there though. I do not think that it is trying to recenter the hand, it just moves a bit foreward. Since your watch have "backwords wobble" it looks like it is resetting but on mine it is actually getting out of center. The trick with the crown you mention sets my second hand in different rest-positions after the 360 spin but sometimes it centers it and sometimes not, seems random.

About the moon phase. Perhaps it just not possible to get it spot on the tick mark if it is out of sync from the factory?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



ronalddheld said:


> Chris you want TC+RC/GPS moonphase watches. None that i know of. The Hoptroff pocket watch and No 16 are all of the CSAC ones I know.


I wasn't being too fussy about it; any one of those technologies plus MP would be interesting. It appears that the DS-8 is unique in that respect.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I emailed Certina customer service about the moon phase function in the DS-8.

This is my email text:

_*Is it normal when setting the moon phase that a single push of the upper or lower pusher buttons will not advance/reverse the moon phase wheel?
The wheel only seems to move when I press and hold the buttons.

Also, how does the moon phase dial advance? Is it moving throughout the day in small increments (like a clock) or does it jump a whole day at a time like the date indicator?

*

_I sent this a few days after I got the watch (Nov. 25) and at the time I wasn't sure how the moon phase dial moved. It moves, from what I can gather, it 1/3 or 1/4 day increments, I think. But it's not a discrete day movement, that's for sure.

I got a reply today (Dec. 4) from a central Swatch Group customer service office in the US, for what it's worth (not much as far as I'm concerned). Not surprising though, Swatch isn't any different than other big product companies. The people who deal with the public have little to zero knowledge of the complex products being sold beyond what is in the manual:

*Thank you for the provided information.

Upon review, we would like to advise that pressing the respective pusher will allow you to turn the moon phase clockwise or counter clockwise. However, when one of the pushers is held down it will increase the rotation speed.

As for the moon phase calendar, kindly note that it makes incremental movements so as to display the current lunar phase if set correctly.

If you are experiencing any issues with your timepiece, attached you will find a list of our authorized service facilities along with the mailing instructions. Please feel free to return your timepiece to the nearest location to you. Upon receipt of your timepiece it will be fully reviewed and you will receive a detailed evaluation.

For more information, including FAQ's and pricing, please visit our website http://www.sguscustomerservice.com

We look forward to receiving your timepiece and further assisting you.

Sincerely, 
Customer Care
Swatch Group US*

What I can safely say is a single press of a pusher will NOT advance/reverse the moon phase dial one bit, at least not in my watch. That's what makes setting that sub-dial so cumbersome. Most of the reply was in the manual already, they did answer about the movement of the dial though (not discrete days but slowly moves). I did figure that out after a few days of observation.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I agree tmathes, nothing happens when single pushing.
Feels like this watch only is 99% ready...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> I agree tmathes, nothing happens when single pushing.
> Feels like this watch only is 99% ready...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As I suspected, my watch was typical in setting the moon phase and the manual is in error. one thing I'm not impressed with is the operating manuals Swatch provides. I have a few Omegas, those watches leave a lot to be desired too. Swatch should take a look at how Citizen does it, their manuals are top flight by comparison with videos on their web site to boot.

As of today the Certina may have gained a 1/4 second since I set it last Thursday morning. This is eyeballing it compared to the time.gov signal and my Citizen RC controlled chrono (which was in sync with time.gov and the WWV shortwave radio broadcast.). We'll see how it fares over the next few weeks now that I won't mess with the blasted moon phase dial (which I FINALLY got right).


----------



## CristobalGordo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I have to say that this thread didn't exactly convince me to run out and buy one of these watches. Keep us posted on how you feel about the watch. Seems like some of the problems are the result of confusing instructions and will go away once you figure out the little tricks to the watch. Others (like the wobbly seconds hand) may be design flaws? I like the looks of this watch and I like the idea of this watch (HAQ, moon phase) but 700-800 euros is a lot to drop on a watch if the movement isn't quite there yet. For those of you who own the watch, and after having it on your wrist for a while, what's the bottom line- worth it? not worth it?


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



CristobalGordo said:


> I have to say that this thread didn't exactly convince me to run out and buy one of these watches. Keep us posted on how you feel about the watch. Seems like some of the problems are the result of confusing instructions and will go away once you figure out the little tricks to the watch. Others (like the wobbly seconds hand) may be design flaws? I like the looks of this watch and I like the idea of this watch (HAQ, moon phase) but 700-800 euros is a lot to drop on a watch if the movement isn't quite there yet. For those of you who own the watch, and after having it on your wrist for a while, what's the bottom line- worth it? not worth it?


My short answer to your question: Worth it. The AD I bought from advertises the price as under 600 Euros, quite a bit less than you expected the price is.

Long answer: A lot of the gripes I have are with the shoddy instruction manual, namely with the setting of the moon phase dial. Swatch Group products have crummy manuals. The other gripe is a basic design decision with the movement, how to set the moon phase dial. I could make some of the same gripes with other watches I have. My Citizen RC chrono and Omega Aqua Terra 8500 come to mind.

Regarding the accuracy (ie is is hitting the 10 sec/yr target), the jury is still out. That will take at least a month for me to see if the watch does/doesn't hit the target.

Regarding design, fit, finish, this is one area the Swiss just "get it". The finish and details in this Certina are fantastic for the price, the brown sunburst dial and rose gold colored tick marks, along with the blue/gold moon phase dial are just "right" in my eye. Even my wife was impressed that it looks so much nicer in person than in the renders you'll see on the web. The watch band was top quality, comparable (I'd say nicer) than a Hirsch Duke strap. Same with the deployant, nice touch.

So over all, don't let the gripes prevent you from getting it. If you can wait, just monitor this thread over the next few months for updates before deciding against buying it.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

One thing I forgot to mention about this Certina: unlike any other quartz watch I own, this watch has the minute hand hit the tick marks spot on in sync with the sweep second hand around the entire dial. Same goes for the sweep second hand (lower sub-dial), it hits the markers spot on. The chrono second hand does the same better than any other watch I own. Even that 'wobble' with the chrono second hand seems to correct itself after using it, I rarely see the needle off dead center anymore. It'll be off kilter when I reset it after using the chrono but it's weird that after a few hours that goes away. Never seen that in any watch before but not complaining.

As a comparison, I have a Seiko Kinetic Direct Drive watch, an SRX003. It's comparably priced to this Certina, the Seiko has a moon phase indicator and what is considered a reasonably complicated movement. The Seiko doesn't hit the second marks with nearly the precision as this Certina; in fact, sometimes the Seiko is pretty close, sometimes it's WAY off. Same with the minute hand. I've noticed this eccentricity with several of my Asian made watches (Seiko, Citizen, a couple of Timex watches, Casio with a Miyota movement).

Not so with this Certina. I found the movement has less slop in it when I tried to set it. Like I said, there are some things when it comes to Swiss watches that shows they "get it".


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I agree with tmathes but am a little less enthusiastic. My wobbliness-problem seem a little bit worse (and it is not getting any better) and I keep wondering why they made that relatively fat short end of the chrono seconds hand. But I guess the first problem is the only real problem and that one is easily solved by checking your watch out before you buy it. That is if you buy it from a store directly anyway.
The moon phase setting might be cumbersome but you will probably just do it once per battery.

Another thing - it has very little competition. AFAIK there is no other HAQ-watch like this and the precidrives are generally not expensive either.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> I agree with tmathes but am a little less enthusiastic. My wobbliness-problem seem a little bit worse (and it is not getting any better) and I keep wondering why they made that relatively fat short end of the chrono seconds hand. But I guess the first problem is the only real problem and that one is easily solved by checking your watch out before you buy it. That is if you buy it from a store directly anyway.
> The moon phase setting might be cumbersome but you will probably just do it once per battery.
> 
> Another thing - it has very little competition. AFAIK there is no other HAQ-watch like this and the precidrives are generally not expensive either.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree on the chrono second hand end, it should have been really short/thin or missing so not to obscure the second hand sub-dial. I have to wonder if that was a 'parts bin' selection to keep costs down?

One suggestion about the wobbly sweep second hand: wait until the warranty is almost over and send it to Swatch for repair. maybe they had an early production run where the wobbly hand was an issue. I still find that characteristic odd as I see the same thing but at a much lower level.

Before buying the DS-8 I thought of getting the DS-2 chrono. I always try to review the owner's manuals before I buy a product so I read both the DS-8 and 2 manuals. This tidbit in the DS-2 chrono manual was interesting:

*Automatic calibration
The POWERDRIVE motors used to drive the hands enable accurate and rapid adjustments. To ensure that they are working correctly, an automatic calibration *
*is performed once an hour on both the central counter hands:

**- One-step forward / backward movement *

*Or
*
*- A complete dial rotation (alternating between the two hands)

**These visible movements are part of the normal operation of the chronograph

*
I wonder if the DS-8 has a similar thing going on and hence the 'wobbly' chrono second hand is really a self-calibration? Swatch owner's manuals stink and there may be something going on here that's by design but of course left out of the manual to not "confuse" us dumb owners.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> I agree on the chrono second hand end, it should have been really short/thin or missing so not to obscure the second hand sub-dial. I have to wonder if that was a 'parts bin' selection to keep costs down?
> 
> One suggestion about the wobbly sweep second hand: wait until the warranty is almost over and send it to Swatch for repair. maybe they had an early production run where the wobbly hand was an issue. I still find that characteristic odd as I see the same thing but at a much lower level.
> 
> Before buying the DS-8 I thought of getting the DS-2 chrono. I always try to review the owner's manuals before I buy a product so I read both the DS-8 and 2 manuals. This tidbit in the DS-2 chrono manual was interesting:
> 
> *Automatic calibration
> The POWERDRIVE motors used to drive the hands enable accurate and rapid adjustments. To ensure that they are working correctly, an automatic calibration *
> *is performed once an hour on both the central counter hands:
> 
> **- One-step forward / backward movement *
> 
> *Or
> *
> *- A complete dial rotation (alternating between the two hands)
> 
> **These visible movements are part of the normal operation of the chronograph
> 
> *
> I wonder if the DS-8 has a similar thing going on and hence the 'wobbly' chrono second hand is really a self-calibration? Swatch owner's manuals stink and there may be something going on here that's by design but of course left out of the manual to not "confuse" us dumb owners.


These two motions couldn't be confused: the DS-2 calibration is a complete sweep around the dial or a very positive hand flick. Quite disconcerting when you first see it as you're not sure if it really happened. My DS-2's hands are as good as it gets, without wobble or noticeable misalignment. It does have the slightly annoying, rather fat counterbalances on the two central chrono hands, though.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> These two motions couldn't be confused: the DS-2 calibration is a complete sweep around the dial or a very positive hand flick. Quite disconcerting when you first see it as you're not sure if it really happened. My DS-2's hands are as good as it gets, without wobble or noticeable misalignment. It does have the slightly annoying, rather fat counterbalances on the two central chrono hands, though.


It was an (un)educated guess on my part. I still cannot fathom why the slight movement forward/backward on the chrono hand when it's not being used.

I have several chronos in my collection, both quartz (Citizen RC chrono, Miyota-based chronos, Timex IQ analog compass/chrono, Seiko chrono) and a mechanical (Speedmaster Pro). Not one do this 'wobble' so color me baffled why this one does. I must say though DS-8 hits the chrono second tick marks about the best of the bunch. Only the Citizen comes close.

Still love the watch, especially the rose gold colored accents. You can't see it easily in the photos but there are rose-gold colored rings in or around each sub-dial, you don't notice it unless you move the watch around in the light. It's a very nice touch. At 4x the price the Omega Aqua Terra quartz doesn't have that kind of dial detail (no raised tick marks, painted-only dial) but then again the Omega logo is what you're paying for. Then again who am I to say anything, I have a couple of those logos in my collection. :-d

In summary, if anyone is interested in the watch and sort of on the fence, maybe do like when shopping for a car: wait a year or two for the bugs to be worked out.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> It was an (un)educated guess on my part. I still cannot fathom why the slight movement forward/backward on the chrono hand when it's not being used.
> 
> I have several chronos in my collection, both quartz (Citizen RC chrono, Miyota-based chronos, Timex IQ analog compass/chrono, Seiko chrono) and a mechanical (Speedmaster Pro). Not one do this 'wobble' so color me baffled why this one does. I must say though DS-8 hits the chrono second tick marks about the best of the bunch. Only the Citizen comes close.
> 
> Still love the watch, especially the rose gold colored accents. You can't see it easily in the photos but there are rose-gold colored rings in or around each sub-dial, you don't notice it unless you move the watch around in the light. It's a very nice touch. At 4x the price the Omega Aqua Terra quartz doesn't have that kind of dial detail (no raised tick marks, painted-only dial) but then again the Omega logo is what you're paying for. Then again who am I to say anything, I have a couple of those logos in my collection. :-d
> 
> In summary, if anyone is interested in the watch and sort of on the fence, maybe do like when shopping for a car: wait a year or two for the bugs to be worked out.


Unfortunately this watch has one major bug that will not get fixed. Like every PreciDrive TC movement, except the 251.264 that's used in the DS-2 and a couple of other chronos, it doesn't have an independently adjustable hour hand. Attractive as I find the watch visually, it is completely disqualified as an HAQ for me (and a few others on this forum). So if you feel like beating up Certina over the other issues, please have a moan about the IAHH.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> Unfortunately this watch has one major bug that will not get fixed. Like every PreciDrive TC movement, except the 251.264 that's used in the DS-2 and a couple of other chronos, it doesn't have an independently adjustable hour hand. Attractive as I find the watch visually, it is completely disqualified as an HAQ for me (and a few others on this forum). So if you feel like beating up Certina over the other issues, please have a moan about the IAHH.


By independent hour hand you mean to advance the date you have to spin the hour hand instead of a quick date advance? If that's the case then I'm thankful mine DOESN'T have that.

I have that "feature" in my Omega Aqua Terra 8500, I detest it with a passion. I don't wear the watch often and when I have to adjust the date it takes way, WAY too long since the watch often has been sitting wound down for weeks. Plus, when the hour hand is moved over the time hour hand will be off, it won't point directly to the hour mark when the minute hand is on the 12. At least that's true of all mechanical watches. Rolex owners complain of it, the 8500 Omega movement has that issue and I had more than one watchmaker say it's common with that movement style.

My wife's AT has the smaller 8501 movement, it has the quick date advance. I vastly prefer that. I don't find it a deal killer, I find not having the hour hand adjust a big advantage.

To each his own.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> By independent hour hand you mean to advance the date you have to spin the hour hand instead of a quick date advance?


An independently adjustable hour hand is one that can be adjusted without stopping the watch or moving the minute hand. This allows the time to be changed for reasons of travel or DST without interfering with the watch's time-keeping. It is a nice feature to have anyway, as it means you don't have to completely re-set the time for each time zone or DST change, but it especially useful to those of us who time our watches over the course of a year and who want to avoid unnecessary interruptions.

The issue is not directly related to date changes.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> An independently adjustable hour hand is one that can be adjusted without stopping the watch or moving the minute hand. This allows the time to be changed for reasons of travel or DST without interfering with the watch's time-keeping. It is a nice feature to have anyway, as it means you don't have to completely re-set the time for each time zone or DST change, but it especially useful to those of us who time our watches over the course of a year and who want to avoid unnecessary interruptions.
> 
> The issue is not directly related to date changes.


I was correct on what it is.

My Aqua Terra has the hour hand advance in place of a quick date change. You have to spin the hour hand to get a date change. The 8501 movement, the smaller version in my wife's AT, has a standard date change. Is this how the DS-2 advances the date too or is it independent?

I plain detest how it's implemented in the AT. The added "advantage" with the hour advance is the hour hand isn't always in alignment, a common gripe with the 8500 movement as well as some Rolex watches that have this feature. I'm guessing any mechanical watch has the same problem. Maybe ETA movement doesn't have the flaw but I'm guessing it has the same issue if similar mechanical coupling is used.

If it's motorized hour hand movement like in my Citizens then it is a nice feature IF you also get quick date change too. If it's like my Omega, no thanks. I'm glad the DS-8 doesn't have it.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> I was correct on what it is.
> 
> My Aqua Terra has the hour hand advance in place of a quick date change. You have to spin the hour hand to get a date change. The 8501 movement, the smaller version in my wife's AT, has a standard date change. Is this how the DS-2 advances the date too or is it independent?
> 
> I plain detest how it's implemented in the AT. The added "advantage" with the hour advance is the hour hand isn't always in alignment, a common gripe with the 8500 movement as well as some Rolex watches that have this feature. I'm guessing any mechanical watch has the same problem. Maybe ETA movement doesn't have the flaw but I'm guessing it has the same issue if similar mechanical coupling is used.
> 
> If it's motorized hour hand movement like in my Citizens then it is a nice feature IF you also get quick date change too. If it's like my Omega, no thanks. I'm glad the DS-8 doesn't have it.


Of course it's a very subjective issue, and Tom has stated the case from the PoV of dedicated HAQ lovers. What is really needed is IAHH and Perpetual Calendar, so everybody is happy. Unfortunately ETA seem to have abandoned PC in all the PreciDrive calibres, and Seiko GS generally has neither. The honourable exception is Citizen, who are still supporting both functions in their top-end watches.


----------



## kapahoo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

tmathes >>
Yes, it might be a good idea to wait for the warranty to almost run out and then turn the watch in. The problem is that Swatch group-service isn't exactly the best and fastest and I am pretty tired of having to deal with them. But in two (or rather one and half now) years I might have forgotten that! 

Regarding the IAHH vs quick date it is probably a matter of taste (as chris01 says), how many watches you rotate, if you are travelling a lot and stuff like that. But it is really lazy/cheap that in 2015 not all quartz watches (with date) have perpetual calendar. It cannot be that hard and expensive to implement. It is though a bit unfair to compare a "The Citzen" to this Certina since it costs three or four times as much.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> tmathes >>
> Regarding the IAHH vs quick date it is probably a matter of taste (as chris01 says), how many watches you rotate, if you are travelling a lot and stuff like that. But it is really lazy/cheap that in 2015 not all quartz watches (with date) have perpetual calendar. It cannot be that hard and expensive to implement. It is though a bit unfair to compare a "The Citzen" to this Certina since it costs three or four times as much.


Cost has not always been an issue. For example, the excellent Citizen Exceed E510 had IAHH, PC and a technically brilliant drive-by-wire crown, in a watch costing much the same as the Certina PD chronos. It was nominally an HAQ but unfortunately cannot be regulated. The older Longines and Omega ETA-based HAQs all had IAHH and most had PC as well. Fairly pricey but nowhere near Seiko GS territory. You are quite correct, IMO, in that adding PC to any quartz should be a normal complication, at least in the mid- and high-price range. Adding IAHH could be done in just about any watch, quartz or mechanical, and, lacking PC, it doesn't have to be incompatible with QS date.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> tmathes >>
> Yes, it might be a good idea to wait for the warranty to almost run out and then turn the watch in. The problem is that Swatch group-service isn't exactly the best and fastest and I am pretty tired of having to deal with them. But in two (or rather one and half now) years I might have forgotten that!
> 
> Regarding the IAHH vs quick date it is probably a matter of taste (as chris01 says), how many watches you rotate, if you are travelling a lot and stuff like that. But it is really lazy/cheap that in 2015 not all quartz watches (with date) have perpetual calendar. It cannot be that hard and expensive to implement. It is though a bit unfair to compare a "The Citzen" to this Certina since it costs three or four times as much.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You don't have to spend a lot for the perpetual calendar function. That feature can be had for less than the Certinas cost.

I have two Citizens with perpetual calendars, one is part of their 8700 Calibre line:

Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Calibre 8700 BL8000-54L Calibre Series

and this radio-controlled chrono:

Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Perpetual Chrono A-T AT4008-51E Atomic Timekeeping

Both have motor-controlled hands for both hour and minute functions. With the 8700 series watch you can set up an alternate time zone for quick changes but you do have to stop the movement if you need to set the 'home' dial display.

The AT chrono is the ultimate "never have to set it and forget it" watch if you live in the time zones covered by the design. Even though I live on the east coast of the US, it picks up the WWVB transmission from Colorado every night without fail, it always switched on/off Daylight Saving Time on it's own and it spot on with the WWV shortwave signal. When I got it I did a manual sync of with the time signal and it was very slick to watch it move the hands and the date display on it's own to the correct settings.

When I travel for business the AT is my 'go to' travel watch since it allows easy time zone adjustments via the crown and has an alarm feature in addition to the chrono. I also love the Eco-Drive concept, no routine battery changes.

Can't beat it for lazy people.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



kapahoo said:


> tmathes >>
> Yes, it might be a good idea to wait for the warranty to almost run out and then turn the watch in. The problem is that Swatch group-service isn't exactly the best and fastest and I am pretty tired of having to deal with them. But in two (or rather one and half now) years I might have forgotten that!
> 
> Regarding the IAHH vs quick date it is probably a matter of taste (as chris01 says), how many watches you rotate, if you are travelling a lot and stuff like that. But it is really lazy/cheap that in 2015 not all quartz watches (with date) have perpetual calendar. It cannot be that hard and expensive to implement. It is though a bit unfair to compare a "The Citzen" to this Certina since it costs three or four times as much.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear ya about Swatch service. My Speedy has a minor issue with the chrono reset (the hour subdial doesn't go to the proper reset spot always, a common problem with the 1861 movement). After all of the horror stories I've heard about their service I just live with it. Last thing I want is the "fix" being worse than the original symptom. I heard of similar problems with a lot of watch company repair centers (Seiko being often harshly criticized on the Seiko/Citizen forum).


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> You don't have to spend a lot for the perpetual calendar function. That feature can be had for less than the Certinas cost.
> 
> I have two Citizens with perpetual calendars, one is part of their 8700 Calibre line:
> 
> Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Calibre 8700 BL8000-54L Calibre Series
> 
> and this radio-controlled chrono:
> 
> Citizen Citizen Eco-Drive Perpetual Chrono A-T AT4008-51E Atomic Timekeeping
> 
> Both have motor-controlled hands for both hour and minute functions. With the 8700 series watch you can set up an alternate time zone for quick changes but you do have to stop the movement if you need to set the 'home' dial display.
> 
> The AT chrono is the ultimate "never have to set it and forget it" watch if you live in the time zones covered by the design. Even though I live on the east coast of the US, it picks up the WWVB transmission from Colorado every night without fail, it always switched on/off Daylight Saving Time on it's own and it spot on with the WWV shortwave signal. When I got it I did a manual sync of with the time signal and it was very slick to watch it move the hands and the date display on it's own to the correct settings.
> 
> When I travel for business the AT is my 'go to' travel watch since it allows easy time zone adjustments via the crown and has an alarm feature in addition to the chrono. I also love the Eco-Drive concept, no routine battery changes.
> 
> Can't beat it for lazy people.


yes but they do not have intrinsic HAQ accuracy.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I don't think Citizen or Seiko will do an RF or GPS watch with a TC, HAQ heart, unless MorganWerk really takes off.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



gangrel said:


> I don't think Citizen or Seiko will do an RF or GPS watch with a TC, HAQ heart, unless MorganWerk really takes off.


Not quite HAQ, but Citizen has Reasonably Accurate Quartz (5 SPM) movements in the F150 and F900 GPS watches. For a watch that is intended to sync. every now and then with a satellite signal, this sort of accuracy is probably sufficient.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

DELETED

I'm getting double posts, for some reason.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> Not quite HAQ, but Citizen has Reasonably Accurate Quartz (5 SPM) movements in the F150 and F900 GPS watches. For a watch that is intended to sync. every now and then with a satellite signal, this sort of accuracy is probably sufficient.


A quick test of my newly acquired F150 shows -12 SPY with daily wear.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> A quick test of my newly acquired F150 shows -12 SPY with daily wear.


Very reasonable indeed.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> Not quite HAQ, but Citizen has Reasonably Accurate Quartz (5 SPM) movements in the F150 and F900 GPS watches. For a watch that is intended to sync. every now and then with a satellite signal, this sort of accuracy is probably sufficient.


Neither of my Citizens are HAQ. No question about it.

Both are around 5 seconds/month, not shabby in my book. Both are better than my Seiko Kinetic moon phase, which cost 3 times as much.

My RC chrono appears to successfully sync every night, it's maybe missed a few days in the last 2 years (I check it nearly daily for sync success). I'm pleasantly surprised being on the U.S. east coast, quite a distance from the WWVB transmitter. While not HAQ with it being so consistent in sync'ing with the radio signal it is accurate enough for me.

I checked the Certina in it's first week of operation, it leads my Citizen RC chrono by maybe under 1/2 second but it's still too early to tell exactly how much. I'll report back next week how things are progressing. At least I finally got the moon phase setting right.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> Very reasonable indeed.


I'm more impressed with this one than the Astron chrono, at +120 SPY. I'll try it unworn next.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> I'm more impressed with this one than the Astron chrono, at +120 SPY. I'll try it unworn next.


When it comes to movements only, I'm not as impressed with the overall quality of Seikos recently compared to Citizen.

My Seiko moon phase was not a cheap watch and the inaccuracy and eccentricity of the second hand movement hitting the markers is pretty shabby, my $35 Timex watches do the same and a $100 Timex IQ is vastly better. Citizen does a better job these days in my limited experience. This is one thing the Certina gets right, they hit the markers pretty darned well. Even if it comes in to 20 sec/yr instead of 10 sec. I'm happy, very happy with it. That'll push it out of HAQ territory though, that is kind of a bummer.

Perhaps this movement is indeed only partially baked, or should I say, the trimming of the movement is partially baked. This brings back bad memories of a design I did a couple of years ago where production test could not trim my design properly no matter how many times I showed them (it was a precision thermal monitor on a chip). They finally got it right but not without a lot of grief.


----------



## yankeexpress

*Certina DS-2 Precidrive chrono HAQ*

Anybody know how long the battery will last if the chrono function is left running? Just curious.

A neat function is that the hour hand can be adjusted without stopping the movement....great for world travelers.

Amazed at how accurate this DS-2 is:


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive chrono HAQ*

Perhaps Ronald would move this to the original, very long, DS-2 thread, to keep it all together.

Re your question, sorry no idea. My battery is now at 25 months but without much chrono usage. Any other questions are very likely already addressed in the above thread. That green is very striking and it's good to see that you're obviously enjoying your watch.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS-2 Precidrive chrono HAQ*



chris01 said:


> Perhaps Ronald would move this to the original, very long, DS-2 thread, to keep it all together.
> 
> Re your question, sorry no idea. My battery is now at 25 months but without much chrono usage. Any other questions are very likely already addressed in the above thread. That green is very striking and it's good to see that you're obviously enjoying your watch.


I can merge the threads if people want it. I am not home so it may not happen expeditiously.


----------



## Stelyos

*Certina DS Action Diver*

are the new Certina DS Action Diver considered HAQ movements?

i don't know much of the "precidrive".


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS Action Diver*

What is the movement number in that watch?


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS Action Diver*

The latest DS Action 3-hand and DS Action chronograph models (number C032...) are both PreciDrive and are therefore HAQ.
The older C013... models are not.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS Action Diver*

Chris, is this another thread to be merged into a Certina megathread?


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS Action Diver*



ronalddheld said:


> Chris, is this another thread to be merged into a Certina megathread?


I guess it could be a candidate. It's slightly complicated by the fact that the movement is one of the lower-range PDs, not the same as the DS-2 chrono. However, we're likely to see a lot of Certina PD watches in the future and I don't think we need a separate thread for each one. After a while, we'll probably just ignore them unless they have something special to offer. A second PD with independent hour hand, or any PD with perp. cal. would be very interesting!


----------



## SPACE-DWELLER

Hi guys,

I have the Certina DS-8 Moonphase (same "brown" dial; actually called "Dark Grey").

First, here's a picture of mine... Afterwards, I'll come with my input about the watch:


----------



## SPACE-DWELLER

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Ouch! Can't post pics as my post count is too low...

Anyway:

Adjusting the Moonphase in the "P3" position with just ONE push on the upper or lower chrono pusher DOES advance the Moonphase... But the disk moves so little that you won't be able to see it.

Try pushing the chrono hand say TEN times (single pushes; NOT holding the pusher)... And notice the Moonphase hand at the same time: you will notice that the hand - and Moonphase - actually DOES move, but as said in very tiny increments.

Also, the Moonphase moves continuously throughout the day, in tiny increments.

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## SPACE-DWELLER

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Furthermore (and I believe that no one has ever mentioned this in any review of the Certina DS-8 Moonphase:

If you Google an old Certina DS model (vintage model), you will notice the intertwined "Cc" logo on the dial that Certina uses back in time...

Now compare with the cut-out section of the seconds hands dial at six o'clock on the Certina DS-8 Moonphase:

You will notice that Certina actually "revived" the old "Cc" logo with the cut-out "Cc"...

I hope that you get what I mean... Wanted to post pics to clarify but as said, my post count is too low to do so.

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



SPACE-DWELLER said:


> Ouch! Can't post pics as my post count is too low...
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> Adjusting the Moonphase in the "P3" position with just ONE push on the upper or lower chrono pusher DOES advance the Moonphase... But the disk moves so little that you won't be able to see it.
> 
> Try pushing the chrono hand say TEN times (single pushes; NOT holding the pusher)... And notice the Moonphase hand at the same time: you will notice that the hand - and Moonphase - actually DOES move, but as said in very tiny increments.
> 
> Also, the Moonphase moves continuously throughout the day, in tiny increments.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


Hmm, I did that, it did not move at all. I kept pressing it repeatedly, thinking it would step the moon dial in small steps but nothing, I saw an initial movement back/forth on the 1st press but that was it, no advance (or reversal). I believe Kapahoo had the same observation. I'll try next time I adjust the moon phase.

I can't try it again right now even though the dial is off (it is indeed a true moon phase clock, not a 24 hr. clock after all). I'm in the middle of testing the accuracy of the movement, my last check I'm still under 1 second time gained (my eyeball estimate still says around 1/2 second) and it's been right at 16 days (okay, 6 hrs. shy of 16 days). So maybe my watch is within 10 seconds a year, right now the jury is still out. I likely won't bother with getting the moon dial correct until March (next time the full moon occurs on day 15, not 14).


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



SPACE-DWELLER said:


> Furthermore (and I believe that no one has ever mentioned this in any review of the Certina DS-8 Moonphase:
> 
> If you Google an old Certina DS model (vintage model), you will notice the intertwined "Cc" logo on the dial that Certina uses back in time...
> 
> Now compare with the cut-out section of the seconds hands dial at six o'clock on the Certina DS-8 Moonphase:
> 
> You will notice that Certina actually "revived" the old "Cc" logo with the cut-out "Cc"...
> 
> I hope that you get what I mean... Wanted to post pics to clarify but as said, my post count is too low to do so.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


I assume this is what you mean? (my hand is shaky with a mouse to 'draw' the red semi-circles so my apologies)









I looked for images on-line of old Certinas, the double "C" logo didn't seem to be just for the old DS models but it was Certina's company logo. This is one better examples I found:









Now it explains why they did the cut out like that.

The cut out for the seconds sub-dial are indeed like the old Certina interlocked "C" logo, that looks like an homage to their past. Since the brand is not distributed widely in the US I had no idea they used this logo. Nice design 'easter egg' to honor to their history and excellent catch Space-Dweller!


----------



## SPACE-DWELLER

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Thanks! First, I didn't see the "hidden" Cc logo, but then it suddenly struck me as I once owned a 14 ct Certina "Blue Ribband" with the same "Cc" logo... And you're right: that logo was the company logo; not just for the DS models.

As for the hand inside the Moonphase subdial, I, too, thought it didn't budge when pressing the chrono hand once... But it really does move but only very slightly so. As said, try pressing the chrono hand repeatedly (single pushes, not holding the pusher)... Say 10-12 pushes, and watch the hand (and thus the Moonphase) move comapared to one of the Moonphase age markers inside the subdial.

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Short update:

It's been 24 days since I set the watch last, it gained 1 second in that time. Not bad at all. This watch might hit the 10 sec/yr. mark but I'm still not convinced. Reasoning is below.

I do have to question how much "thermal compensation" there is the watch. When I bought it last month, I was wearing it M/W/F for at least 4-5 hrs a day, more often more like 12-14 hrs. on some days. I'm not wearing any watch as much in the last 2 weeks so my DS-8 has received little wrist time lately. The watch gained most of the 1 second in the first 2 weeks of wearing it most every day, it didn't seem to gain much since I quit wearing it.

I know how do to thermal compensation in IC circuit designs of precision voltage references (as I've stated before, I'm an analog IC design engineer). Once done (properly) you'll see 0.7% variation over temperature (military temp range, -55C to 125C) drop to 0.1% or less. I assumed with a temp compensated watch I would see a similar effect but in my limited observation it's not even close, assuming the t/c in this watch is properly functioning. I bring this up since the typical precision reference used in circuit design has a very, VERY similar 'bow' curve as the t/c in watch-specific quartz oscillators, assuming no kind of temp compensation in either the circuit/watch movement.

I would not let Swatch touch this watch to check it out unless the watch is really broken. I don't think they would (or could) trim it any better after the stories I hear on these boards for what passes as "service". Just check out the threads on the Omega forum to get a taste if you haven't heard the stories. Plenty of owners pay US$500-800 for service only to get the watch back with damage, the watch quits working after a day, etc. etc. And it's not just US service, same stories for UK, Australian, Hong Kong, etc. etc. customers. In general factory service is lousy for nearly all watch brands (there's a thread right now on the Seiko/Citizen forum about Seiko's lousy service).

If the watch is 2 sec/month off I am still be happy, so far it will hit that mark easily with my wear patterns. Still, I have to question how much 'compensation' is going on here as I see similar speed variations with similar wear patterns in my regular quartz watches. Color me unconvinced of the temp compensation in this particular sample.


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> Short update:
> 
> It's been 24 days since I set the watch last, it gained 1 second in that time. Not bad at all. This watch might hit the 10 sec/yr. mark but I'm still not convinced. Reasoning is below.
> 
> I do have to question how much "thermal compensation" there is the watch. When I bought it last month, I was wearing it M/W/F for at least 4-5 hrs a day, more often more like 12-14 hrs. on some days. I'm not wearing any watch as much in the last 2 weeks so my DS-8 has received little wrist time lately. The watch gained most of the 1 second in the first 2 weeks of wearing it most every day, it didn't seem to gain much since I quit wearing it.
> 
> I know how do to thermal compensation in IC circuit designs of precision voltage references (as I've stated before, I'm an analog IC design engineer). Once done (properly) you'll see 0.7% variation over temperature (military temp range, -55C to 125C) drop to 0.1% or less. I assumed with a temp compensated watch I would see a similar effect but in my limited observation it's not even close, assuming the t/c in this watch is properly functioning. I bring this up since the typical precision reference used in circuit design has a very, VERY similar 'bow' curve as the t/c in watch-specific quartz oscillators, assuming no kind of temp compensation in either the circuit/watch movement.
> 
> I would not let Swatch touch this watch to check it out unless the watch is really broken. I don't think they would (or could) trim it any better after the stories I hear on these boards for what passes as "service". Just check out the threads on the Omega forum to get a taste if you haven't heard the stories. Plenty of owners pay US$500-800 for service only to get the watch back with damage, the watch quits working after a day, etc. etc. And it's not just US service, same stories for UK, Australian, Hong Kong, etc. etc. customers. In general factory service is lousy for nearly all watch brands (there's a thread right now on the Seiko/Citizen forum about Seiko's lousy service).
> 
> If the watch is 2 sec/month off I am still be happy, so far it will hit that mark easily with my wear patterns. Still, I have to question how much 'compensation' is going on here as I see similar speed variations with similar wear patterns in my regular quartz watches. Color me unconvinced of the temp compensation in this particular sample.


Temperature compensation is by no means perfect. But it will bring an ordinary quartz rate down from minutes per year, to seconds per year.
Search for dwjquest posts on how different TC movements cope with temperature changes.

The COSC requires 0.07 seconds per day, or better, at 23 degrees Celcius.

These values sound terrible for people who compare them with manufacturers specifications.

But don't forget that these are snapshots of actual, current rate. In real life the rate rises and falls with ambient temperature, and the long term rate won't be as bad.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Hans Moleman said:


> Temperature compensation is by no means perfect. But it will bring an ordinary quartz rate down from minutes per year, to seconds per year.
> Search for dwjquest posts on how different TC movements cope with temperature changes.
> 
> The COSC requires 0.07 seconds per day, or better, at 23 degrees Celcius.
> 
> These values sound terrible for people who compare them with manufacturers specifications.
> 
> But don't forget that these are snapshots of actual, current rate. In real life the rate rises and falls with ambient temperature, and the long term rate won't be as bad.


Agreed. Measuring short-term rates gives a completely misleading view of the performance of a TC movement OVER ONE YEAR. +/-10 seconds per year does not mean +/-27.4 milliseconds for every day of that year. Unless your watch is kept in a thermostatically controlled oven it will be affected by wearing pattern and ambient temperature throughout the year. The only valid assessment of SPY is literally seconds in one year. Shorter periods of measurement give only an indication of trends. For two examples of year-long tests with monthly SPY evaluations, see my thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/year-vhp-1053908.html


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I do not expect a wearable OCXO watch at any time n the future.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



ronalddheld said:


> I do not expect a wearable OCXO watch at any time n the future.


It would remove the need for TC movements, and recalibration would only require turning the thermostat up or down a bit. Any cheap old quartz would do perfectly. Plus a backpack for the oven and power supply.


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

We've had some heated discussions about that in this forum.

The measured rainfall for one day, does not give you the yearly rainfall.
You simply have to sit that out, and wait a year to see.

The measurement period is different and that gives you a different result.
Simple as that.

Both measurement periods are equally valid and useful for their own purpose.

You can live in a desert and still have flooding once in a while.

The short term rate is a good indication of the effectiveness of the TC, but don't blindly extrapolate to a year's worth.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I am one of the few who do the yearly checks. This might change for select watches


----------



## gangrel

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I'm starting to do monthly checks, on both my 2 good HAQs, and my PSR-10 that probably isn't close to HAQ, and also on my regular quartz pieces that have seconds hands.  That's actually not very many. None of them have IAHH, so this'll be operative through the start of DST...at which point I'll set them all, and start another round. IMO, anything more frequent is not useful to me; even things like the effectiveness of the TC, just don't matter; the bottom line is the longer-term accuracy.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I took a look at the COSC spec link posted, for a 30 day window at 23C the spec is +/-2.1 sec/month, +/-6 sec/month at 38C. The Precidrive movement in my watch falls well within those ranges so now that I have a feel for what temperature compensated is regarding a quartz oscillator over the range of room temp to being worn on a wrist.

I assumed tighter specs, based on temp compensated voltage reference designs I've done or seen done in production ICs in the past. I still don't accept the "view it like like rain total of a day vs. a year" analogy, this is a man-made circuit, hence the specs are for variation at a particular temperature, I'm not measuring drift over time. The watch manufacturer may spec it that way in a sales brochure, manual or imply how to view it but it's not how engineers write design specs. I was looking at this as a design spec, +/- so many seconds variation over a year means I can sub-divide that to so many seconds per month, week or day. It's how my brain sees things being a hard-core designer for (too many) years.

No matter, I like the watch, it keeps good time and I love the design. Next step is get the moon dial right and all will be right with the world.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> I took a look at the COSC spec link posted, for a 30 day window at 23C the spec is +/-2.1 sec/month, +/-6 sec/month at 38C. The Precidrive movement in my watch falls well within those ranges so now that I have a feel for what temperature compensated is regarding a quartz oscillator over the range of room temp to being worn on a wrist.
> 
> I assumed tighter specs, based on temp compensated voltage reference designs I've done or seen done in production ICs in the past. I still don't accept the "view it like like rain total of a day vs. a year" analogy, this is a man-made circuit, hence the specs are for variation at a particular temperature, I'm not measuring drift over time. The watch manufacturer may spec it that way in a sales brochure, manual or imply how to view it but it's not how engineers write design specs. I was looking at this as a design spec, +/- so many seconds variation over a year means I can sub-divide that to so many seconds per month, week or day. It's how my brain sees things being a hard-core designer for (too many) years.
> 
> No matter, I like the watch, it keeps good time and I love the design. Next step is get the moon dial right and all will be right with the world.


Perhaps looking at any watch as a scientific instrument is missing the point. All watches are basically intended for use by real people in real-life situations. Whatever the rate vs temperature graphs may look like, they tell you very little about how the watch will perform when worn for undefined periods and unworn in varying ambient temperatures. No watch manufacturer can, with reasonably affordable TC technology, guarantee any particular annual rate without specifying either a wear and temperature pattern, or making the accuracy spec sufficiently relaxed to be almost unaffected by any wear/ambient conditions. The COSC spec is easily met by any TC watch but it's far too relaxed for those of us here looking for High Accuracy.

My first HAQ, a Longines Conquest Ti VHP in 1986, had a very rational approach. Its battery life was 5 years and the claimed rate was within 1 minute over 5 years. Implying that you didn't need to adjust the time between battery changes, since that was "perfect" timekeeping when compared to almost anything on the planet. In fact mine gained 10 seconds in that time, so I had nothing to complain about.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

So, I have had my DS-2 for several months and it's about time to put down a few thoughts.

This is one of the biggest and heaviest watches in my collection, but it's entirely manageable and until I acquired the Morgenwerk I hadn't really given any thought at all to the size and weight of the DS-2. It is the only chronograph in my collection, and I think it's likely to remain that way. I'm not a sporty person by any stretch of the imagination, and one representative chrono is plenty for me. The chrono is most likely to be run for a few seconds just in order to get the chrono hands clear of the seconds sub-dial.

And it's the seconds sub-dial that is really my only complaint with this watch. Well, I could complain about the date not being perpetual and the rate being unadjustable, but those are common gripes with all new PreciDrive movements. The chrono hands, though, are a minor annoyance that other PD implementations might not share. The breadth and length of the tail end of the chrono hands is sufficient to obscure the top few seconds on the 6 o'clock sub dial, and those seconds are important to me as a HAQer.

My only other grumble is that it can be a bit tricky to read the minutes, due to the alignment of the tip of the minute hand with markings that aren't minutes, but that is something that I am sure I would get used to if I were to wear this watch regularly. My DS-2 has been almost entirely unworn and is currently running at 12.8 SPY after 103 days. It may do better if it were worn more regularly.

When I acquired this watch, the question of whether the rate was adjustable was still up in the air. Photos of early iterations showed + and - terminals, but no-one had attempted to adjust one. My movement has no + or - terminals and a series of e-mails back and forth with ETA revealed that the rate is adjustable only by the brand and that the + and - terminals that appear on early PD movements were included somewhat erroneously, as a legacy from happier times.

I have bought some gems and some real dross, over the past twelve months, and the DS-2 is definitely one of the good ones. Not in my top five, perhaps, but a watch that I am nevertheless rather pleased to own. The build quality is good and aside from being slightly off-spec. it functions reliably. Having been mostly unworn, the DS-2 hasn't, perhaps, had the fairest run over the last three months, but I shall wear it more in the new year and see if my opinion changes.


----------



## igna

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



Tom-HK said:


> So, I have had my DS-2 for several months and it's about time to put down a few thoughts.
> 
> This is one of the biggest and heaviest watches in my collection, but it's entirely manageable and until I acquired the Morgenwerk I hadn't really given any thought at all to the size and weight of the DS-2. It is the only chronograph in my collection, and I think it's likely to remain that way. I'm not a sporty person by any stretch of the imagination, and one representative chrono is plenty for me. The chrono is most likely to be run for a few seconds just in order to get the chrono hands clear of the seconds sub-dial.
> 
> And it's the seconds sub-dial that is really my only complaint with this watch. Well, I could complain about the date not being perpetual and the rate being unadjustable, but those are common gripes with all new PreciDrive movements. The chrono hands, though, are a minor annoyance that other PD implementations might not share. The breadth and length of the tail end of the chrono hands is sufficient to obscure the top few seconds on the 6 o'clock sub dial, and those seconds are important to me as a HAQer.
> 
> My only other grumble is that it can be a bit tricky to read the minutes, due to the alignment of the tip of the minute hand with markings that aren't minutes, but that is something that I am sure I would get used to if I were to wear this watch regularly. My DS-2 has been almost entirely unworn and is currently running at 12.8 SPY after 103 days. It may do better if it were worn more regularly.
> 
> When I acquired this watch, the question of whether the rate was adjustable was still up in the air. Photos of early iterations showed + and - terminals, but no-one had attempted to adjust one. My movement has no + or - terminals and a series of e-mails back and forth with ETA revealed that the rate is adjustable only by the brand and that the + and - terminals that appear on early PD movements were included somewhat erroneously, as a legacy from happier times.
> 
> I have bought some gems and some real dross, over the past twelve months, and the DS-2 is definitely one of the good ones. Not in my top five, perhaps, but a watch that I am nevertheless rather pleased to own. The build quality is good and aside from being slightly off-spec. it functions reliably. Having been mostly unworn, the DS-2 hasn't, perhaps, had the fairest run over the last three months, but I shall wear it more in the new year and see if my opinion changes.
> 
> View attachment 6492033


Agree in same points.

Why if they moved the minute scale to a inner circle (making room for the 1/100" scale) the minute hand wasn't shortened a few millimeters so it "points" to its own scale? Its a design problem. The chronograph is hard to use because the four main hands will certainly obscure the hour or minute small dials. When reading them I feel like a monkey looking for louses in my wrist ;-)

Besides all that its a very nice watch I now use frequently, 50% time shared with 50% my GS ... and DS2 its beating GS in accuracy.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

I was confused about the titles in these recent posts, didn't realize the DS2/8 were merged.

I agree 200% about the chrono hand covering part of the second dial at 6:00, the DS8 has the same issue. I have some chronos with the Miyota 0S10 movement that have the same layout, the seconds sub-dial is at the 6:00 location and the chrono hand obscures it some, so the ETA design isn't unique. Seiko has it right with their 7T62 movement as does the 1861/3 Calibre in the Omega Speedmaster Pro.

One question about the independent hour hand: is it a mechanical coupling or is it electrically controlled? In my Citizens the hand advance/reverse is electrically controlled, so to change the hour means you electrically advance the movement 1 hr, the minute hands move too. In my Omega Aqua Terra, it's mechanically coupled. My gripe with the AT is the mechanical coupling means you can loose proper alignment with the hour hand over time as the coupling wears; mine was slightly off and worst between hours 5-7 out of the box but it's within spec.

One of our respected WUS watchmakers even said in this post he's not a fan of the design due to slop that happens.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/omega-9300-hour-hand-alignment-2695394-2.html#post23697569

It's the main reason I detest the quick hour feature, this alignment issue.


----------



## CristobalGordo

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> I was confused about the titles in these recent posts, didn't realize the DS2/8 were merged.


Merging these two threads doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I was interested in the DS-8 because of the moon phase. Now a perfectly fine thread about the DS-8 was merged into a 64 page monster thread about a watch I don't care about. Is there something wrong with having multiple threads about different watches?


----------



## yankeexpress

chris01 said:


> This is a long item but I think it marks a very significant event in the world of HAQ. We have a brand-new TC movement - the ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive - installed in a brand-new watch from a long-established Swatch Group watch manufacturer. Unlike all the other announcements of the last year or so, that have only a very limited (albeit exciting) appeal, like the Hoptroff CSAC watch, or are still apparently vapourware, like AtomicTime and Morgenwerk, this one is real and is currently being shipped to retailers at a very reasonable price.
> 
> Certina's effort in announcing and publicising their new watch, after the initial press releases, has been feeble and confusing, with retailers and their distributors having very little information and even Certina's web site has almost no useful information. There are currently six models with cosmetic variations and they are shown here:
> certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1
> It appears that they all have the TC movement but only the more expensive LE version has a COSC certificate (and a fancy box).
> 
> My recently departed, and not greatly missed, Aerospace has left an HAQ-sized gap, just in time to receive my own Certina and I hope the photos give a good idea of the whole package. If you want wrist shots, or a photo of the movement, then you'll have to buy your own.
> 
> View attachment 1278880
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278881
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278883
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278884
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278885
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278886
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278887
> 
> 
> *Chronograph Indications*
> View attachment 1278889
> 
> 
> *Detailed specification (from Certina and my own watch)*
> 
> 
> Model number: C024.447.11.081.00
> Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year
> Battery life: more than 2 years (silver oxide 394/SR936SW), EOL indication
> Functions: Centre hour & minute hands, small-second, date,
> time-zone (hour hand setting is independent),
> date adjustment using hour hand, NO perpetual calendar
> Chronograph: Centre 1-second hand with 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second graduations,
> runs for first minute, subsequently displayed when chronograph is stopped
> Centre 60-second hand
> Small 30-minute and 12-hour dials
> Case: Brushed/polished 316L stainless steel
> 41mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, lug width 22 mm
> Aluminium bezel with tachymeter scale
> Dial: Anthracite with polished hands and nickelled indices
> Sub-dials black with textured finish
> Superluminova on hour & minute hands and hour markers
> See the Certina link for other variations
> Water resistance: to 10 bar (100m)
> Crystal: Sapphire crystal, domed, with inner anti-reflective coating
> Watch strap: Three-row 316L stainless steel (brushed/polished)
> with twin push-button butterfly buckle
> Removable links with split-pin fixings
> Dimensions: Case 41 mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, 22 mm lug width, 51 mm lug-to-lug
> Weight of watch with full bracelet 150 g
> Maximum wrist circumference of watch + bracelet 21.5 cm
> Bracelet 22 mm wide, tapering to 19 mm,with removable links 7 mm (x2) and 10 mm (x5)
> Warranty: Two year international warranty, service through normal SG Group centres
> *
> A brief initial review*
> 
> First impressions are that this is a very nicely designed and finished piece, quite 'normal' in appearance. The case has a good mix of brushed and polished sections, as does the bracelet, although I fear that the large polished centre links will soon show scuffs and scratches. The bracelet was quite easily adjusted to size with two sizes of link, and there are helpful arrow markings on the bracelet to avoid the disaster of attempting to insert or remove the split pins in the wrong direction. I would have liked to see micro-adjustment but this is probably impossible with a butterfly fastening.
> 
> Rather surprisingly for a 100m WR watch, the back is pressed in rather than screwed in. However, Certina make a big deal of their DS (Double Security) Concept, and there is a relief of a turtle on the back, so I have to assume that they know what they're doing! It does mean that I'm in no hurry to have a peek at the movement.
> 
> On the wrist it's quite comfortable and doesn't feel too big. It's on the upper size limit for my taste, and I prefer titanium for lightness, but it's OK. Absence of a rotating bezel is a major plus point for me.
> 
> Readability is good, helped by the slightly domed crystal, with internal AR, that avoids the problem with a flat crystal of the dial disappearing behind one large reflection. In the absence of an outer AR coating this is good enough. The dial has a very subtle sunburst effect for the main dark grey part, with black sub-dials that have a raised annular ring pattern.
> 
> Operation is perfectly straightforward, with all the functions working as expected. The independent hour hand is for me a mandatory feature for any HAQ . Perpetual calendar would have been nice but it seems unachievable with a chronograph. You have to turn the hour hand through 24 hours to change the date (works in both directions). Lume seems adequate but I haven't tried an 05:00 time check yet.
> 
> The chrono buttons work smoothly but I must make a comment about the 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second feature. This was greatly hyped in the initial press releases, as if it's a must-have unique feature. To me it's a complete nonsense. Trying to read an elapsed time that requires reference to 4 separate hands (12-hour and 30-minute sub-dials, plus 60-second and 1-second main hands) is a serious test of one's patience. Omitting the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] hand would give a perfectly serviceable 1-second stopwatch. If you need sub-second resolution then any cheap digital stopwatch is infinitely better.
> 
> The user manual is perfectly adequate, being written in good English (plus 16 other languages) and contains everything you need to know on 12 tiny pages. This includes simple instructions for resetting the chrono hands, which was necessary when my watch arrived.
> 
> So, my initial conclusion is that I am very pleased with this attractive watch at an attractive price. I cannot understand why Christopher Ward doesn't do something similar with sensibly-priced COSC quartz, instead of their bizarre special editions that are commemorative of nothing very significant.
> 
> I am now starting my test of accuracy and will report as soon as the SPY value starts to settle down. +/-10 SPY is not usually a problem for ETA TC movements.


Great review of the quartz Certina DS-2 HAQ chrono.

One feature of this watch I really appreciate is the ability to reset the hour hand (time zone) without stopping the movement, keeping the perfect accuracy ongoing.


----------



## chris01

One point that usually gets forgotten is the VFM. For around £450 / €610 / US$660 / CA$920, rather less if you're outside the EU and escape VAT, you get a brand new watch delivered almost anywhere in the world, with an international 2-year warranty, and in many places with local access to an official service centre.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> I was confused about the titles in these recent posts, didn't realize the DS2/8 were merged.
> 
> I agree 200% about the chrono hand covering part of the second dial at 6:00, the DS8 has the same issue. I have some chronos with the Miyota 0S10 movement that have the same layout, the seconds sub-dial is at the 6:00 location and the chrono hand obscures it some, so the ETA design isn't unique. Seiko has it right with their 7T62 movement as does the 1861/3 Calibre in the Omega Speedmaster Pro.
> 
> One question about the independent hour hand: is it a mechanical coupling or is it electrically controlled? In my Citizens the hand advance/reverse is electrically controlled, so to change the hour means you electrically advance the movement 1 hr, the minute hands move too. In my Omega Aqua Terra, it's mechanically coupled. My gripe with the AT is the mechanical coupling means you can loose proper alignment with the hour hand over time as the coupling wears; mine was slightly off and worst between hours 5-7 out of the box but it's within spec.
> 
> One of our respected WUS watchmakers even said in this post he's not a fan of the design due to slop that happens.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/omega-9300-hour-hand-alignment-2695394-2.html#post23697569
> 
> It's the main reason I detest the quick hour feature, this alignment issue.


An IAHH on a mechanical watch is only slightly useful, since it's no big deal having to re-hack the watch for DST as you'll be doing it quite frequently in everyday use just to keep it reasonably precise. If you travel a lot then maybe there are more appropriate ways to keep accurate time.

With an HAQ it's damn annoying to have to reset the watch twice a year when it could be running true to a few SPY. As for travel without an IAHH, the watch ceases to be an HAQ as soon as you have to change the time zone.

For me, no HAQ without an IAHH is worthy of the description and I will never own such a watch. Hour hand misalignment has never been a problem with any of my HAQs. The only problem (apart from the common quartz seconds issue) was the minute hand on my Aerospace that only ticked every 30 sec and had about 20 sec of free play (described as no fault by B. UK), so it was impossible to read the time closer than 1 minute.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> An IAHH on a mechanical watch is only slightly useful, since it's no big deal having to re-hack the watch for DST as you'll be doing it quite frequently in everyday use just to keep it reasonably precise. If you travel a lot then maybe there are more appropriate ways to keep accurate time.
> 
> With an HAQ it's damn annoying to have to reset the watch twice a year when it could be running true to a few SPY. As for travel without an IAHH, the watch ceases to be an HAQ as soon as you have to change the time zone.
> 
> For me, no HAQ without an IAHH is worthy of the description and I will never own such a watch. Hour hand misalignment has never been a problem with any of my HAQs. The only problem (apart from the common quartz seconds issue) was the minute hand on my Aerospace that only ticked every 30 sec and had about 20 sec of free play (described as no fault by B. UK), so it was impossible to read the time closer than 1 minute.


Is it mechanically coupled in the watch or electric (ie motor driven)? I couldn't tell which. If it's mechanically coupled the mechanism is likely the same/similar as in the mechanical watches I would guess.

As for the reason for the IAHH in the Omega 8500 movement, changing time zones for those jet setters is the reason they give in the sales literature. I'm not the jet setter (woe is me!). My wife has the lady's AT with the 8501 movement. Same basic design but smaller for a woman's watch (lower power reserve) and it has a quick date, I much prefer it.

I don't wear the watch often, hence why I hate that IAHH feature, takes forever to set the date. Plus after reading Al's description of the mechanism I don't bother setting it anymore when I wear it. My eyesight isn't so good up close and I refuse to wear bifocals for now. So unless I happen to have reading glasses on I can't see the date display, problem fixed. 

As for accuracy, I must have gotten a lime, it rivals my quartz watches for accuracy. I let the watch run for a month, it gained maybe 5-7 seconds the entire time, surprised me to no end.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> Is it mechanically coupled in the watch or electric (ie motor driven)? I couldn't tell which. If it's mechanically coupled the mechanism is likely the same/similar as in the mechanical watches I would guess.
> 
> As for the reason for the IAHH in the Omega 8500 movement, changing time zones for those jet setters is the reason they give in the sales literature. I'm not the jet setter (woe is me!). My wife has the lady's AT with the 8501 movement. Same basic design but smaller for a woman's watch (lower power reserve) and it has a quick date, I much prefer it.
> 
> I don't wear the watch often, hence why I hate that IAHH feature, takes forever to set the date. Plus after reading Al's description of the mechanism I don't bother setting it anymore when I wear it. My eyesight isn't so good up close and I refuse to wear bifocals for now. So unless I happen to have reading glasses on I can't see the date display, problem fixed.
> 
> As for accuracy, I must have gotten a lime, it rivals my quartz watches for accuracy. I let the watch run for a month, it gained maybe 5-7 seconds the entire time, surprised me to no end.


All my current HAQs seem to be a simple mechanical link. I had a Citizen E510 that was all drive-by-wire - probably the most advanced 3-hand HAQ movement ever. My RCs and GPS are obviously electronically controlled. In spite of all that I have never seen any of the Omega mechanical issues you mention, even on 25-year old watches. So for me at least it's a non-problem and I will maintain my semi-religious devotion to the IAHH. For international travel I much prefer my Oceanus S100 RC, as it's slim and light, easy to wear, inconspicuous, sets itself every night anywhere I care to visit, and has good lume and excellent intrinsic accuracy for those radio black holes.


----------



## yankeexpress

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*

Like my S100 as well for travel










OCW-S100 is 40mm all titanium, sapphire, solar, atomic, perpetual calendar, 32 time zones (very subtle, almost hidden, around the chapter ring)


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> All my current HAQs seem to be a simple mechanical link. I had a Citizen E510 that was all drive-by-wire - probably the most advanced 3-hand HAQ movement ever. My RCs and GPS are obviously electronically controlled. In spite of all that I have never seen any of the Omega mechanical issues you mention, even on 25-year old watches. So for me at least it's a non-problem and I will maintain my semi-religious devotion to the IAHH. For international travel I much prefer my Oceanus S100 RC, as it's slim and light, easy to wear, inconspicuous, sets itself every night anywhere I care to visit, and has good lume and excellent intrinsic accuracy for those radio black holes.


You're lucky, my AT has a slight misalignment with the hour hand but it's not anything out of the ordinary for Omega or Rolex. I've seen enough posts on WUS of owners who sent the watch into Omega or Rolex service to be told "it's within spec" to even bother. The misalignment isn't huge, by 2 min. past the hour it's OK and only is bad between 5-7 o'clock but it still bugs me.

It's why I'm reluctant to get another IAHH watch. I really love the DS2 with the red accents in titanium but the potential for a misaligned hour hand turns me off for the price. I do love the design though.


----------



## chris01

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



tmathes said:


> You're lucky, my AT has a slight misalignment with the hour hand but it's not anything out of the ordinary for Omega or Rolex. I've seen enough posts on WUS of owners who sent the watch into Omega or Rolex service to be told "it's within spec" to even bother. The misalignment isn't huge, by 2 min. past the hour it's OK and only is bad between 5-7 o'clock but it still bugs me.
> 
> It's why I'm reluctant to get another IAHH watch. I really love the DS2 with the red accents in titanium but the potential for a misaligned hour hand turns me off for the price. I do love the design though.


I'm a bit sad that you're excluding the possibility of an HAQ watch with IAHH on the basis of unhappy experience with something quite different. Not that I'd argue with your right to be annoyed and disappointed with that situation. Perhaps you should ask the question of the population here in relation to any particular HAQ that appeals to you. Any practical experience with misaligned hour hands? After all, the HAQ Forum community is pretty damn critical of any shortcomings in their watches.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



chris01 said:


> I'm a bit sad that you're excluding the possibility of an HAQ watch with IAHH on the basis of unhappy experience with something quite different. Not that I'd argue with your right to be annoyed and disappointed with that situation. Perhaps you should ask the question of the population here in relation to any particular HAQ that appeals to you. Any practical experience with misaligned hour hands? After all, the HAQ Forum community is pretty damn critical of any shortcomings in their watches.


The 8500 movement has an Omega-designed movement, and since ETA and Omega brands are "family" (as we all know) they likely use a similar IAHH mechanism if not an identical design. We also have a well respected watchmaker state he wasn't a fan of the basic idea of IAHH for reasons he described in the post I linked to. He sees a lot more of them than any of us, over the years I've gotten to trust the opinions of good repair techs for anything, they get to see the weak spots in products.

The hour hand misalignment isn't that unusual in IAHH designs. I didn't completely rule out the DS-2 but once bitten twice shy. I like to have quartz watches that need nothing but battery changes every few years and wanted to minimize the chance I need to service one. I have a few expensive mechanicals for that 'privilege'. :-d

My assumption is if watches in the $5000-10000 range have the issue show up, too often I think for the price paid, then I'm not exactly expecting a $650 watch to be immune to the situation. I have a few others on my radar before a DS-2 so I'm not in any rush.


----------



## Bauta

*Re: My new Certina DS-8 Moonphase*



CristobalGordo said:


> Merging these two threads doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I was interested in the DS-8 because of the moon phase. Now a perfectly fine thread about the DS-8 was merged into a 64 page monster thread about a watch I don't care about. Is there something wrong with having multiple threads about different watches?


I agree. Will probably have to unsubscribe now.

Sent fra min GT-I9505 via Tapatalk


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## kapahoo

Agree as well. Different watches with different appeal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## stefen

Does Ds2 Precidrive chrono have EOL or no? Does anyone know for sure? Certina seems to be sure about it, but ETA says no? What is happening anyway?


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## chris01

stefen said:


> Does Ds2 Precidrive chrono have EOL or no? Does anyone know for sure? Certina seems to be sure about it, but ETA says no? What is happening anyway?


I have seen the claimed battery life in Certina and ETA documentation ranging from 3 to 6 years. My watch must be one of the oldest around and I've had it from new (fresh from the manufacturer) for 26 months. No sign of EOL yet. The Certina user manual states quite clearly that EOL is indicated by the small second hand jumping by 4 seconds and I can see no reason to doubt this. If you have seen anything different from ETA then please show your source.


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## Tom-HK

EOL included

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6JWIsPHwWqlZ0hVTXM1SnVsOG8/view


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## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> EOL included
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6JWIsPHwWqlZ0hVTXM1SnVsOG8/view


There are now numerous versions of this document, covering various PreciDrive and PowerDrive implementations, and not all of them mention EOL. Probably absence of proof is not proof of absence, and I cannot find anything from ETA that explicitly denies its existence. So we just have to be patient for another year, or two, or three, or four, to see what happens.


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## Sabresoft

I think there is a general pattern to the ETA calibers. 3 handers have quick date change an EOL, chronographs have quick hour change and EOL, and the Ana-digis have perpetual calendar or annual calendar (which requires a manual adjustment for leap years) and EOL. The B78 caliber used by Breitling has the ability to change the battery without losing memory. Not sure about the B50/55 calibers.


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## chris01

Sabresoft said:


> I think there is a general pattern to the ETA calibers. 3 handers have quick date change an EOL, chronographs have quick hour change and EOL, and the Ana-digis have perpetual calendar or annual calendar (which requires a manual adjustment for leap years) and EOL. The B78 caliber used by Breitling has the ability to change the battery without losing memory. Not sure about the B50/55 calibers.


I don't think that the ETA TC chronos have ever had perpetual calendar, but the sad loss is the older 3-hand movements that had EOL, IAHH and PC. They also kept the calendar setting intact during battery change.


----------



## tmathes

I'm looking to pull the trigger soon on the DS-2 Titanium (yes Chris, I'm not fully over the IAHH fear but I likely won't use the feature much, just manually advance the hands like I'm setting the watch to adjust the date. :-d ) It's hard to locate pictures of the titanium model to compare to the similar red accented stainless model, I finally found a few that were good enough. The AD I deal with doesn't have the Ti model in stock right now so he couldn't send me pictures.

One thing I found peculiar in one set of photos I found was the date in the window display was way off center. It's not the camera angle but I noticed the time on the watch, I'm guessing it's after 10:30pm and maybe it's the date change starting? Some of my watches start the date change a few hours before midnight in a similar fashion, I was wondering if this movement is the same.

My DS-8 isn't like this (it seems to 'snap' quickly when advancing) hence the question.









And a small update on my DS-8:

It's near the 2 month mark since I set it (Dec. 3), it's gained around 2.5 seconds in that time, putting it in the 15 sec/year realm. I find this excellent; it isn't 10 sec/yr. but Certina does say "_around_ +/-10 seconds per year" in the manual.

It's also gone through a few lunar cycles and indeed the display is a true lunar calendar. The tick marks are NOT 24 hr. Earth days, to set this display correctly you must set it at either full moon or at a quarter moon setting at the exact time those phases occur as listed in a lunar calendar. I got the moon dial about 1/2 day off, so likely around the DST change-over in March I'll re-set the moon phase properly. I can't say for sure but I'm guessing the way this moon phase function works is unique among analog watches.

I love the watch, I still highly recommend it to anyone interested.


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> One thing I found peculiar in one set of photos I found was the date in the window display was way off center. It's not the camera angle but I noticed the time on the watch, I'm guessing it's after 10:30pm and maybe it's the date change starting? Some of my watches start the date change a few hours before midnight in a similar fashion, I was wondering if this movement is the same.


As I read this, it's 23:20 on 30 Jan and the '3' of '30' is half obscured by the LH edge of the frame. The '3' of '31' is just starting to appear on the RH side. I've never bothered to check carefully on this but it's definitely not a snap over at midnight.


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> As I read this, it's 23:20 on 30 Jan and the '3' of '30' is half obscured by the LH edge of the frame. The '3' of '31' is just starting to appear on the RH side. I've never bothered to check carefully on this but it's definitely not a snap over at midnight.


Then the picture must be at 10:30pm and the date was starting to change. Glad to know it's not a screwed up movement in the picture.Thanks for answering so quickly.


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## chochocho

wow... such a informative thread. thanks!


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## ruffy

I will soon be joining the LE family. I'm curious to see how much battery life is left after having sat for 3 years.


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## kapahoo

Just to comment on tmathes DS-8 update about accuracy.
I've had mine for about 6 months now and it seems to be running about a second a month fast. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## scociu

Does anyone know where to buy the matching leather straps for the DS-2?


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## heb

I've been wearing a non-PreciDrive Certina Multi-8 watch. It was @ -1.37 s/m (30 days). Pretty good; Certina's must be the real deal in terms of accuracy.

heb


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## chris01

scociu said:


> Does anyone know where to buy the matching leather straps for the DS-2?


Why not try your nearest Certina AD? Worldwide addresses from certina.com.


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## tmathes

scociu said:


> Does anyone know where to buy the matching leather straps for the DS-2?


An AD can order you one, you likely won't find any 3rd party vendors for Certina OE straps. But, Certina charges too much for what is offered in my opinion. I asked my AD who makes Certina straps, he told me Hirsch. Not surprising, I carefully looked at the strap on my DS-8 and it looks identical to the build style as my Hirsch Duke straps.

Find a decent Hirsch or Hadley-Roma strap instead and save some cash. I put a Hirsch Grand Duke (black/red stitching) with the Hirsch sport deployant on my Speedmaster, I likely will use the same combo on my DS-2.


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## kapahoo

heb said:


> I've been wearing a non-PreciDrive Certina Multi-8 watch. It was @ -1.37 s/m (30 days). Pretty good; Certina's must be the real deal in terms of accuracy.
> 
> heb


I have one of those as well. 
Had a lot of problems with the minute hand going out of sync. The movement was replaced three times and the fourth time I got a new watch. That one was malfunctioning out of the box so I got the DS-8 Moon Phase instead.
They did, however fix the last Multi-8, I got that one back as well and it has been spot on since late august.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heb

Must be a miracle--mine has NOT had those problems. The minute hand is about 10 seconds of space "behind" the seconds display; that's its only idiosyncracy. I think multifunction watches are like Leatherman tools: a conveniently located group of "tools" that will do 95% of your typical activities but none are the ideal tool for any specific task.

heb



kapahoo said:


> I have one of those as well.
> Had a lot of problems with the minute hand going out of sync. The movement was replaced three times and the fourth time I got a new watch. That one was malfunctioning out of the box so I got the DS-8 Moon Phase instead.
> They did, however fix the last Multi-8, I got that one back as well and it has been spot on since late august.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wbird

I'm sure it's in this monster thread somewhere but I'll just ask. Are all the Certinas that have either precidrive or chronograph on their dial HAQ?


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## Tom-HK

wbird said:


> I'm sure it's in this monster thread somewhere but I'll just ask. Are all the Certinas that have either precidrive or chronograph on their dial HAQ?


If it has 'precidrive', then yes. 'Chronograph' - not necessarily.


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## wbird

Thank you Tom. I was kind of afraid of that. Which leads me to ask is the G10.961 the entry level thermoline HAQ? Or do you have to go to the G10.962.


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## Tom-HK

wbird said:


> Thank you Tom. I was kind of afraid of that. Which leads me to ask is the G10.961 the entry level thermoline HAQ? Or do you have to go to the G10.962.


Sorry, I don't see the G10.961 on the ETA website. The G10.962 is available in two variants: PowerDrive-only and PowerDrive + PreciDrive. The PowerDrive-only variant would not be thermocompensated, so it's important to know which variant is being used in the watch.


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## wbird

Thanks again for your help. The 961 is power drive only, it is a variation of the the 962 with altered pusher functions. It's used in Certina GMT watches. So unfortunately not HAQ. 

By the way I couldn't find the 961 on ETA site only see it on watchbase.


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## fatehbajwa

Tom-HK said:


> If it has 'precidrive', then yes. 'Chronograph' - not necessarily.


Will this be true for all Certina watches or only those that are marked DS 2? In the sense if the watch just has Precidrive on the dial and not DS 2.

Thanks.


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## chris01

fatehbajwa said:


> Will this be true for all Certina watches or only those that are marked DS 2? In the sense if the watch just has Precidrive on the dial and not DS 2.
> 
> Thanks.


For Certina, it is currently true that if it has PreciDrive on the dial it is a thermocompensated HAQ watch. If it doesn't then it isn't. DS-2 refers to other aspects of watch construction that can apply to any Certina watch, quartz or mechanical. You might want to browse certina.com for more info.

I think that the commercial links in your footnote are completely inappropriate for this forum and should be removed.


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## Tom-HK

Deleting this post because I didn't see the response from Chris. His reply was better than mine.


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## James_

What's the claimed accuracy of the Precidrive? I read it's +/-10spy. Anyone getting this so far? Wondering if another Bulova type BS.


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## Weatherman478

Up to a few days ago it was still showing on the UK site all about the Precidrive movement and the accuracy to 10 spy. Having checked last night the whole site has been revamped. No longer any mention of movements or accuracy.


----------



## chris01

James_ said:


> What's the claimed accuracy of the Precidrive? I read it's +/-10spy. Anyone getting this so far? Wondering if another Bulova type BS.


Where have you been for the last 3 years? 

PreciDrive movements are all claimed to be +/- 10 SPY. The reported experience of DS2-2 chrono owners on this forum is consistent with that performance. I think there has been only one negative report, which would appear to have been a faulty watch. Other PD watch models are so far unreported here.



Weatherman478 said:


> Up to a few days ago it was still showing on the UK site all about the Precidrive movement and the accuracy to 10 spy. Having checked last night the whole site has been revamped. No longer any mention of movements or accuracy.


Certina appear to have outsourced their website to people who have never seen a wristwatch. The latest 'upgrade' is just as lacking in useful technical info as before. Even worse, as you can no longer use the Watchfinder to search for PD movements, or download user manuals (unless it's very well hidden). I did, however, find a reference to the movement for each watch, including "PreciDrive" where relevant.

Let's not start a load of unfounded rumours on the basis of Certina's consistently incompetent marketing.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Where have you been for the last 3 years?
> 
> PreciDrive movements are all claimed to be +/- 10 SPY. The reported experience of DS2-2 chrono owners on this forum is consistent with that performance. I think there has been only one negative report, which would appear to have been a faulty watch. Other PD watch models are so far unreported here.
> 
> Certina appear to have outsourced their website to people who have never seen a wristwatch. The latest 'upgrade' is just as lacking in useful technical info as before. Even worse, as you can no longer use the Watchfinder to search for PD movements, or download user manuals (unless it's very well hidden). I did, however, find a reference to the movement for each watch, including "PreciDrive" where relevant.
> 
> Let's not start a load of unfounded rumours on the basis of Certina's consistently incompetent marketing.


With my DS-8 (which does have a Precidrive), it's not at 10 sec/yr., more like 15 sec./yr. so far (gained 4 seconds in the last 3 months). Maybe if I wore it more (I have 16 watches in rotation) it might pull into the 10 sec/yr. Certina's mealy-mouthed "spec" does say 'under normal use conditions' so if I wore it daily perhaps it would be well within that spec. I'm not complaining though, it's accurate enough for me.

Still waiting on my DS-2, the first one sent from our favorite Spanish AD had hands put on it, as has been described by one of our esteemed forum members, as "assembled by a blind one-armed watchmaker's apprentice after a heavy night on the town". Hand alignment was pretty shabby for a watch in that price range (both the hour hand and the sweep second hand). When I get the replacement I'll start my testing on the new one.


----------



## tmathes

Regarding the user manuals, they stuffed them near the bottom of the page here:

Customer Service | certina

under "User Guides". Problem is nothing I entered worked, not the watch name, not the model number, not the number off the back of my watch (the number off the back was supposed to be what it needs). Idiotic, the old site let you easily find a user manual. They're helpful if you're considering product. The web site's FAQs claims the manuals are linked to with each watch but that's not the case, that link just throws you back to the customer service page. Lovely web design as usual; all flash, busted links all over.

I just sent an email to Swatch US, let's see if I ever get a reply. I've been less than impressed with their 'customer service' (more like lack of) to date.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Regarding the user manuals, they stuffed them near the bottom of the page here:
> 
> Customer Service | certina
> 
> under "User Guides". Problem is nothing I entered worked, not the watch name, not the model number, not the number off the back of my watch (the number off the back was supposed to be what it needs). Idiotic, the old site let you easily find a user manual. They're helpful if you're considering product. The web site's FAQs claims the manuals are linked to with each watch but that's not the case, that link just throws you back to the customer service page. Lovely web design as usual; all flash, busted links all over.
> 
> I just sent an email to Swatch US, let's see if I ever get a reply. I've been less than impressed with their 'customer service' (more like lack of) to date.


What a waste of space and oxygen these people are. They have a great range of well-made (usually) watches at good prices, and they don't want even to offer them for sale in most countries, while their web site is just "designed" to obstruct potential interest. Are they required to look like crap compared to the more expensive Swatch brands? Omega and Longines have quite decent websites, although they are also lacking in useful info. Try finding any performance data for the X-33 TC movement.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> What a waste of space and oxygen these people are. They have a great range of well-made (usually) watches at good prices, and they don't want even to offer them for sale in most countries, while their web site is just "designed" to obstruct potential interest. Are they required to look like crap compared to the more expensive Swatch brands? Omega and Longines have quite decent websites, although they are also lacking in useful info. Try finding any performance data for the X-33 TC movement.


Certina comes across as the destitute green-haired foster child of the Swatch group, it's as if they don't want you to buy their product. I prefer their designs to most of Swatch Group's designs in general (except for Omega). Many of their designs seem to "punch above their weight class".

You're right, their marketing is pitiful but I consider the entire Swatch Group's marketing as pitiful to outright customer hostile. They've made their best known luxury brand, Omega, hard to find compared to Rolex for example. WTF? It's even gotten impossible to find their namesake brand, Swatch, in retail outlets in the US. I don't get it. You can't easily sell what you can't find.


----------



## James_

Haha I've never been interested in Certina untill now. They have been one of those invisible brands to me. Same with a lot of Swatch brands for me.

Started to be more interested in HAQ recently because a standard ISA movement in my Smiths PRS40 is keeping time just as good as an HAQ. One thing led to another and I stumbled upon Precidrive eventually.



chris01 said:


> Where have you been for the last 3 years?
> 
> PreciDrive movements are all claimed to be +/- 10 SPY. The reported experience of DS2-2 chrono owners on this forum is consistent with that performance. I think there has been only one negative report, which would appear to have been a faulty watch. Other PD watch models are so far unreported here.
> 
> Certina appear to have outsourced their website to people who have never seen a wristwatch. The latest 'upgrade' is just as lacking in useful technical info as before. Even worse, as you can no longer use the Watchfinder to search for PD movements, or download user manuals (unless it's very well hidden). I did, however, find a reference to the movement for each watch, including "PreciDrive" where relevant.
> 
> Let's not start a load of unfounded rumours on the basis of Certina's consistently incompetent marketing.


----------



## chris01

James_ said:


> Haha I've never been interested in Certina untill now. They have been one of those invisible brands to me. Same with a lot of Swatch brands for me.
> 
> Started to be more interested in HAQ recently because a standard ISA movement in my Smiths PRS40 is keeping time just as good as an HAQ. One thing led to another and I stumbled upon Precidrive eventually.


Well, read all 680 posts here and you'll know just about anything worth knowing on the subject of PreciDrives. Plus a whole load of stuff that you really don't need. Unfortunately it's now the longest (and most read) thread on this forum so that will be a significant chunk of your life you will never get back.


----------



## Tom-HK

James_ said:


> Haha I've never been interested in Certina untill now. They have been one of those invisible brands to me. Same with a lot of Swatch brands for me.
> 
> Started to be more interested in HAQ recently because a standard ISA movement in my Smiths PRS40 is keeping time just as good as an HAQ. One thing led to another and I stumbled upon Precidrive eventually.


Be careful. It's a slippery slope from PreciDrive to 252.611, A660, A060, 9F, E510, 9983, 7370... all the way to bankruptcy.

Having said that, welcome to the HAQ forum!


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> Be careful. It's a slippery slope from PreciDrive to 252.611, A660, A060, 9F, E510, 9983, 7370... all the way to bankruptcy.
> 
> Having said that, welcome to the HAQ forum!


And there speaks the definitive voice of experience.


----------



## Michael Reichmann

I have a Certina DS-8 due to arrive in a day or two.

I'll post some first impressions soon, and then in due course will post a review. It'll be my third TC watch, after a Breitling Air Wolf and Omega X-33 (Gen 2), each of which I've had since first released.

Michael

Ps: I have now read the monster thread. Whew. Thanks everyone for your contributions.


----------



## ronalddheld

Chris and Tom make a good point on avoiding financial ruin by running away from this forum, before it is too late!


----------



## surr3a1

Hello everyone,
I've been visiting the forum for a while but this is my first post.
I am very determined to get the DS Podium Chrono - C001.647.17.057.00. Ever since I saw that watch, I can't help but thinking about it. Now, I read all the pages of this thread but still can't get an asnwer to the question: is it a bad idea to buy this specific watch with PVD coating? All I know is that certain brands have different PVD coatings in respect to their quality. How is this with Certina? My problem is that I really don't like any of the other variants (not much into shiny stuff).

Thank you!


----------



## jisham

ronalddheld said:


> Chris and Tom make a good point on avoiding financial ruin by running away from this forum, before it is too late!


I know I'm sill new here... but does anyone else think it odd that it's the forum moderator that said this?


----------



## chris01

jisham said:


> I know I'm sill new here... but does anyone else think it odd that it's the forum moderator that said this?


You're only going to think it odd if you haven't got hooked yourself. Actually, most of what Ronald says is odd but we're all too weird to notice. Usually this forum is very different from anything else on WUS, so you should suspend your preconceptions, lock away your credit cards, and jump in! If you can refrain (for a while at least) from telling us that time is just an illusion, you'll be fine.


----------



## chris01

surr3a1 said:


> Hello everyone,
> I've been visiting the forum for a while but this is my first post.
> I am very determined to get the DS Podium Chrono - C001.647.17.057.00. Ever since I saw that watch, I can't help but thinking about it. Now, I read all the pages of this thread but still can't get an asnwer to the question: is it a bad idea to buy this specific watch with PVD coating? All I know is that certain brands have different PVD coatings in respect to their quality. How is this with Certina? My problem is that I really don't like any of the other variants (not much into shiny stuff).
> 
> Thank you!


That looks a decent watch. I've no specific info on any black PVD watch, but they do tend to be reported as showing wear much more than plain steel. And, unlike a brushed finish, it's pretty well impossible to hide scratches. The one plus here is that you'll be buying a rubber strap, not a PVD bracelet, as that's the one place where you really will see degradation, however good the coating. My guess is that you won't have much of a problem if you're the type of person who likes to take care of their stuff.


----------



## tmathes

Michael Reichmann said:


> I have a Certina DS-8 due to arrive in a day or two.
> 
> I'll post some first impressions soon, and then in due course will post a review. It'll be my third TC watch, after a Breitling Air Wolf and Omega X-33 (Gen 2), each of which I've had since first released.
> 
> Michael


I've had my DS-8 for since November. Great watch but setting the moon phase dial is a royal pain to get spot on. I'm still trying but came to conclusion it's impossible. If interested I can elaborate, it has some interesting eccentricities I've noticed (at least in my watch). It's the one part of the watch I wish ETA went the route everyone else goes, mechanical/ratcheting mechanism, not a motor driven one.

Love everything else about it though, you can see some of the impressions I have of it earlier this thread. The brown dial + rose gold hands look fantastic.


----------



## surr3a1

Thank you Chris,
I have a Seiko chronograph which is PVD coated and the bracelet got a lot of scratches but over the course of several years. At the time it was my only watch so I kind of used it all the time and in conditions that the new one won't go as I now have a G-Shock for these. The butterfly clasp of the Certina in question is PVD coated as well, so I am sure it will get scratched but the replacement shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## Michael Reichmann

Regrettably, the brown version is unavailable except at a premium price. I was able to find the white dial / stainless version for $500 though. This is an amazing price for a thermo-compensated chronograph with moon phase.

I won't really be able to understand the issue with setting the moon phase until it arrives, but will soon enough, depending on the mood of the mail service. Next Wednesday is a full moon, so I figure that it should be easy to set the watch then (this is what I do with my other moon phase watches).

Love to learn about your experience with it thus far. Maybe we should start a separate DS-8 thread.

Michael



tmathes said:


> I've had my DS-8 for since November. Great watch but setting the moon phase dial is a royal pain to get spot on. I'm still trying but came to conclusion it's impossible. If interested I can elaborate, it has some interesting eccentricities I've noticed (at least in my watch). It's the one part of the watch I wish ETA went the route everyone else goes, mechanical/ratcheting mechanism, not a motor driven one.
> 
> Love everything else about it though, you can see some of the impressions I have of it earlier this thread. The brown dial + rose gold hands look fantastic.


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## wbird

James I disagree. Stay here and by all means never wonder into the Public Forum. Get totally into intrinsic accuracy and never buy into that quartz has no soul stuff and you will have a lot more interesting watches and save yourself a bucket load of money.

First get that Certina, than grab a quartz Gran Seiko. Order The Citizen. Buy a Breitling Colt. Acquire that Longines. Pick up a Bulova Precissionist so you can kill the sweeping second hand argument of the mechanical people.

At the end of that spending spree you will have amassed all the best examples of HAQ and spent less than what most folks have spent on one Rolex or mechanical Breitling and hopefully you won't be tempted to look at the holy trinity of watches.

Just some advise from a guy that just spent enough on the service of one my mechanical toys equivalent to two new Certina's.


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## tmathes

Michael Reichmann said:


> Regrettably, the brown version is unavailable except at a premium price. I was able to find the white dial / stainless version for $500 though. This is an amazing price for a thermo-compensated chronograph with moon phase.
> 
> I won't really be able to understand the issue with setting the moon phase until it arrives, but will soon enough, depending on the mood of the mail service. Next Wednesday is a full moon, so I figure that it should be easy to set the watch then (this is what I do with my other moon phase watches).
> 
> Love to learn about your experience with it thus far. Maybe we should start a separate DS-8 thread.
> 
> Michael


I got mine from a reputable Spanish AD, while the price was higher than gray market, I did get the Swatch factory warranty. Plus I got what I wanted, the brown dial with leather strap, no other combination did it for me and I just could not locate the brown dialed one in any US-based gray market seller. Can't complain, the dealer and product were top notch. As an aside, I couldn't locate the DS-2 with the red dial accents in the US either except for a gray market Amazon dealer. He was higher priced than the Spanish AD so it was a no-brainer to go back to him (my DS-2 is on order).

The DS-8 thread was separate (I started it) but the admin merged the DS-2 and DS-8 threads.

The quick take on the moon dial: it's motor driven so it's a continuous clock, not a daily ratcheting dial (24 hr. day) like in any other watch or clock I own. The lunar cycle isn't quite 29 1/2 days each month, it fluctuates. In particular, the phases aren't spaced evenly month to month, so the darned dial will never be spot on. I found a web site that shows the number of days/hours in each month and been trying to get it lined up to one of the 29 1/2 days cycle, it's one thing I'd change in the watch (make it a daily tick, not a continuous clock).

The other gripe is you have to stop the movement (like you're setting the watch) to set the moon dial but to align the chrono hands you can do it when setting the date. That's backward, it's a stupid design idea. The moon phase is MUCH more likely to need adjustment in any watch than chrono hand alignment.

Otherwise the watch has had good accuracy. While not 10 sec/year it's close, better than most of my quartz watches. The dial is very legible and the rose gold hands and markers are very distinctive and upscale looking. *All* the hands in my watch hit their respective tick marks very well in my watch, that's something I've not experienced in any of my quartz watches. Usually one dial is off but with mine the hand alignment is really good.


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## tmathes

wbird said:


> hopefully you won't be tempted to look at the holy trinity of watches.


And what pray tell is the "holy trinity of watches"?


----------



## webvan

Hadn't really paid attention to the DS-8 but it has some nice features indeed, on top of the Moonphase. The hour window for the chrono for instance, unusual and easier to read. The standard seconds "box" too. 

About the Moonphase, are you saying it's based on a constant 29.5 days versus the more accurate setups of high end watches. Seems silly for an HAQ watch...


----------



## Michael Reichmann

I've been reading the entire DS-2 / DS-8 thread, once I realized that they were all together. What a monster. Kind of like binge watching Game of Thrones.

I've uncovered a lot of good information (thanks all) and now just need my watch to arrive. Likely on Monday, as the tracking info shows it to be clear of customs and pending delivery.

I just hope I don't regret not springing for the higher priced brown version.

Michael


----------



## wbird

Tmathes the holy trinity of watches is usually considered to be Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, and Vacheron Constantin.

With these brands you can find a nice entry level piece for about 10,000$. If you want something really good you have to pay way more.

Right now I think the most expensive HAQ watch is probably the Breitling B55 and it's less than 10k.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> Tmathes the holy trinity of watches is usually considered to be Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, and Vacheron Constantin.
> 
> With these brands you can find a nice entry level piece for about 10,000$. If you want something really good you have to pay way more.
> 
> Right now I think the most expensive HAQ watch is probably the Breitling B55 and it's less than 10k.


Some of those uber-price watches also have some of the most hideous, retina burning designs imaginable. AP in particular comes to mind. Like this

Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Offshore Bumble Bee Chronograph Men's Watch 26176FO.OO.D101CR.02 - Royal Oak - Audemars Piguet - Shop Watches by Brand - Jomashop

or this

Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Diamond 18 kt Rose Gold Ladies Watch 67625OR.ZZ.D009SU.01 - Royal Oak - Audemars Piguet - Shop Watches by Brand - Jomashop

No thanks.

I'll stick with my pedestrian watches. Much easier on the eyes.


----------



## tmathes

webvan said:


> Hadn't really paid attention to the DS-8 but it has some nice features indeed, on top of the Moonphase. The hour window for the chrono for instance, unusual and easier to read. The standard seconds "box" too.
> 
> About the Moonphase, are you saying it's based on a constant 29.5 days versus the more accurate setups of high end watches. Seems silly for an HAQ watch...


I thought all analog watches, quartz and mechanical, are based on a 29.5 day cycle. How do you coordinate a mechanical watch with the fluctuations in the moon phase? Look at the variations month-to-month in the lunar cycle:

Moon Phase Calendar for any location and year

I'd love to hear how a mechanical watch tracks that precisely, and especially, how you set up the time piece. Sounds like a job for a digital watch, not a mechanical watch.

What I was saying was this watch has a moon phase dial you can see is moving throughout the day. It doesn't tick over sometime after midnight in a full day increment. I've not seen a watch do that before, every clock or watch with a moon phase complication I'm familiar with just ticks over after midnight to the next day in the lunar cycle, and all of them are based on a 29.5 day cycle.

I did not considered the 5-6 figure mechanical ones, I don't know how they do it precisely. From the limited information on PP's web site though it appears to be just a 29.5 day counter and you set it on the day of the full moon, not the exact hour of the full moon (which is how I tried to set my DS-8). If it moves throughout the day and doesn't adjust for the fluctuations of the lunar cycle then it's no different than this ETA movement.


----------



## gangrel

tmathes said:


> I thought all analog watches, quartz and mechanical, are based on a 29.5 day cycle. How do you coordinate a mechanical watch with the fluctuations in the moon phase? Look at the variations month-to-month in the lunar cycle:
> 
> Moon Phase Calendar for any location and year
> 
> I'd love to hear how a mechanical watch tracks that precisely, and especially, how you set up the time piece. Sounds like a job for a digital watch, not a mechanical watch.
> 
> What I was saying was this watch has a moon phase dial you can see is moving throughout the day. It doesn't tick over sometime after midnight in a full day increment. I've not seen a watch do that before, every clock or watch with a moon phase complication I'm familiar with just ticks over after midnight to the next day in the lunar cycle, and all of them are based on a 29.5 day cycle.
> 
> I did not considered the 5-6 figure mechanical ones, I don't know how they do it precisely. From the limited information on PP's web site though it appears to be just a 29.5 day counter and you set it on the day of the full moon, not the exact hour of the full moon (which is how I tried to set my DS-8). If it moves throughout the day and doesn't adjust for the fluctuations of the lunar cycle then it's no different than this ETA movement.


No. The issue is, the *actual* length is not 29.5 days; it's 29.5306 (approx) days. Moon phase modules use 4 gears, from what I've read. It's the way the gear ratios play that do the magic. Using 29.5 days means you're off by 0.03 days per cycle, so 1 day in about 3 years. The advantage is, it's rather easy to work out the gear ratios because 29.5 is simple...it's 59/2. I did this myself one late night...just one of those ways one finds to not get any sleep. But you can work with different gear ratios; it's not too hard to get to 1 day in 10 years. I believe I worked out a set for that, but don't recall it at the moment. Some makers wrote up code and ran it on a computer, to get accuracy to 1 day in 1000 years. Would anyone *care* about it being more accurate? It has been done, I believe, but it's ludicrous. Even more than you know...because the cycle length gets longer by, IIRC, about a second a century.

And 1 day a century isn't pricy. The CW C9 hits this mark, and it's $1800, with one of the nicest moonphase displays on the market at ANY price.


----------



## mikahe

Now that we have this useful Sticky: Certina DS2 "FAQ" thread, it might be good to check its name still. My immediate proposal would be either Certina Precidrive FAQ or then one that concentrates to ETA 251.264 movement only. 
The thing is a bit messy as many TC fans know. Certina has the same TC ETA 251.264 movement in at least one other model - and pure "Certina DS-2" name has TC ETA caliber F06.411. 
FAQ thread could concentrate on all calibers that Certina chooses to call "Precidrive" (i.e. gather the most useful facts there, because this original thread is so massive).


----------



## chris01

mikahe said:


> Now that we have this useful Sticky: Certina DS2 "FAQ" thread, it might be good to check its name still. My immediate proposal would be either Certina Precidrive FAQ or then one that concentrates to ETA 251.264 movement only.
> The thing is a bit messy as many TC fans know. Certina has the same TC ETA 251.264 movement in at least one other model - and pure "Certina DS-2" name has TC ETA caliber F06.411.
> FAQ thread could concentrate on all calibers that Certina chooses to call "Precidrive" (i.e. gather the most useful facts there, because this original thread is so massive).


Before we open up a new debate on this area, you might care to wait a few days and then review the content of the new sticky. Any comments now will not affect the initial presentation.


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> No. The issue is, the *actual* length is not 29.5 days; it's 29.5306 (approx) days. Moon phase modules use 4 gears, from what I've read. It's the way the gear ratios play that do the magic. Using 29.5 days means you're off by 0.03 days per cycle, so 1 day in about 3 years. The advantage is, it's rather easy to work out the gear ratios because 29.5 is simple...it's 59/2. I did this myself one late night...just one of those ways one finds to not get any sleep. But you can work with different gear ratios; it's not too hard to get to 1 day in 10 years. I believe I worked out a set for that, but don't recall it at the moment. Some makers wrote up code and ran it on a computer, to get accuracy to 1 day in 1000 years. Would anyone *care* about it being more accurate? It has been done, I believe, but it's ludicrous. Even more than you know...because the cycle length gets longer by, IIRC, about a second a century.
> 
> And 1 day a century isn't pricy. The CW C9 hits this mark, and it's $1800, with one of the nicest moonphase displays on the market at ANY price.


I was assuming 29.5 days, I don't know the exact calibration in the ETA movement. With a quartz movement that drives a motor real-time it can be set just as well as a mechanical if not vastly more precisely. All the CPU would be programmed to do is step the motor with the precise average lunar cycle. What it can't do is track the variations month-to-month unless things get very complicated.

My point is the moon phase sub-dial moves real-time, it can never be dead on the exact *hour* month-to-month when a moon phase occurs. That was my point. A fixed monthly cycle mechanical watch that moves the same way will have the same flaw since the lunar cycle isn't the same each month.

That what I was trying to convey, that I wish this watch used a mechanical day indicator, it only turning over like a date function, not more like a real-time clock. It would show "today xx phase happens" instead of being off by several hours since the tick mark will not always be spot on with the way it was implemented.

Just being picky, I just wish Certina was a bit more clear on how the function worked.


----------



## wbird

There is one other thing you should consider. Yes the lunar length is on average 29.5, the display window on the watch allows for error in the size. But your best opportunity for an accurate display in that window is to set your watch on a month when the lunar cycle is 29.5, I think August.

This would mean all the plus and minus variation of the lunar cycle will be centered and the display will show the least error.

I liked the DS-8 and the price is really attractive but I went with what I thought was the lowest maintenance and most unique moon phase watch on the market. The Citizen Signiture Moon Phase Fly Back Chronometer.

Accuracy better than what it is specd at, build exceptional, easy to set, and you only have to set it once every 10 to 20 years depending on Eco-drive life.


----------



## surr3a1

I really have to ask this.... am I the only one who thinks that the DS-2 looks like a Swatch? How can Certina design a watch that looks like a $100 kid's watch?


----------



## chris01

surr3a1 said:


> I really have to ask this.... am I the only one who thinks that the DS-2 looks like a Swatch? How can Certina design a watch that looks like a $100 kid's watch?


----------



## surr3a1

Yes, it really looks like a troll post but it isn't. My first real watch was a Swatch Irony back when I graduated from high school. I loved that watch. I would probably look at the DS-2 line as a watch to buy if it didn't remind me of the Swatch I had back then when I was a poor student. In my mind, I am imagining the situation that someone comes and tells me "Is that a Swatch, it looks nice?". This wouldn't make me feel happy.

Anyhow, please, accept my apologies for posting something which looks like a troll post!


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## mikahe

Which Certina DS-2 you are actually talking about? This ref perhaps Watch Details | certina ?

That doesn't look bad at all IMHO. It seems to be 2016 model. Most places are currently selling very different looking dials with minute numbers, which could look like Swatch. 
At least the people who are responsible of Certina web site and clock specs/manuals download section could go to Swatch...

But that C024.410.11.051.20 seems very basic TC caliber, no IAH etc. I'll need to pass that one.


----------



## surr3a1

C024.448.11.031.00 - this one for example. Now, don't get me wrong it looks pretty to me but maybe the shape of the bezel, the lines of the case... these remind me of the Swatch Irony collection.
C024.447.17.051.33 - this is the one that I personally like but got a little disappointed that the strap is not with deployant buckle, like it is on the Podium models.
As Certina's site doesn't mention anything about replacement straps... what do you guys do if you need one?


----------



## chris01

The number of PreciDrive watches on Certina's site is growing rapidly, although their new Watchfinder won't let you search for PD and just gives all 200 quartz models. I still believe that they'll eventually move completely to PD. That latest DS-2 3-hander is, to me, a very tidy style and much neater than the earlier model. Unfortunately they are almost exclusively using 'crippled' PD movements with no useful complications. Apart from a couple of chronos, none has an independent hour hand. Wasted opportunity, IMHO.


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## mikahe

Of those models I looked mostly at C024.447.16.051.03, but I can't get past the small second (again), so that's the dealbreaker.


----------



## chris01

mikahe said:


> Of those models I looked mostly at C024.447.16.051.03, but I can't get past the small second (again), so that's the dealbreaker.


OK if you don't like small seconds (they don't do much for me either), but why are you looking at chronos, which just about never have a central running seconds hand? Of course, if you want a 'proper' HAQ (with IAHH) from Certina then there's no choice but a chrono.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> There is one other thing you should consider. Yes the lunar length is on average 29.5, the display window on the watch allows for error in the size. But your best opportunity for an accurate display in that window is to set your watch on a month when the lunar cycle is 29.5, I think August.
> 
> This would mean all the plus and minus variation of the lunar cycle will be centered and the display will show the least error.
> 
> I liked the DS-8 and the price is really attractive but I went with what I thought was the lowest maintenance and most unique moon phase watch on the market. The Citizen Signiture Moon Phase Fly Back Chronometer.
> 
> Accuracy better than what it is specd at, build exceptional, easy to set, and you only have to set it once every 10 to 20 years depending on Eco-drive life.


Yup, one step ahead of you.  I thought the same thing when I stumbled on that web site I pointed to earlier. I'm checking each cycle for now and am noting when the watch hits the first quarter /full moon/ last quarter cycle. This is why I thought just a "date" indicator for the phase was good enough. I'm too anal setting this thing....:-d

In the meantime, I set the dial last month on the full moon. February was close to a 'nominal' month.


----------



## Michael Reichmann

Well, I have today and tomorrow for the DS-8 to arrive here in Toronto so that I can set the moon phase as accurately as possible at 8 am on Wednesday for the exact time of the full moon.

Is this OCD behaviour, or what?

I'm also using this as an opportunity to time signal sync my other TC watches as well, the Breitling Air Wolf, and Omega X-33. These three can then have a very slow race until June 23rd when I'll check them again.

Michael


----------



## ronr9286t

I've been following this thread for quite some time. I've had a few Seiko HAQs with the 8J56 movement. These models have the quick-set hour-hand, which is an important feature for me, as I travel quite a bit. I have two radio-wave controlled watches - one a Citizen Attessa and the other a Casio. I also have a Seiko Astron. Those three pieces are all solar charged, another desirable feature for my. A further requirement for me is light weight. I cannot tolerate a heavy watch, and I've had to sell some grails because after a few days, I get a sore wrist (the Grand Seiko Spring Drive GMT SBGE001 and some of the US model spring drives). My current dress watch is a Grand Seiko SBGE033, a Spring Drive GMT.

I've been looking for a sporty but semi presentable daily driver, and I've been looking at the PreciDrive Chronos for their accuracy and stepping hour-hand, and just ordered the Ti version through Amazon. The table of features by model number listed earlier on this thread was invaluable in directing me to this watch, as the model is not designated as a DS2, but rather the "Certina DS Podium Big Size Chronograph Grey Dial Titanium Mens Watch C0016474408700 ".

Looking forward to receiving it later this week.

Ron


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches - help for newcomers*

This thread has grown almost beyond belief, becoming the longest and most read on this forum. It is not an easy task for the newcomer to get up to speed on these watches, and rather a tedious task to find something that you remember seeing a year ago. So I have abstracted some posts and, with grateful thanks to Ronald for doing the hard work, we now have a sticky that may help: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds2-faq-3020610.html

The objective is to collect useful facts about the PreciDrive movements and watches, together with performance data and some individual reviews. I have deliberately omitted general discussion not specific to these watches, and most of the purely subjective opinions. If your treasured thoughts are missing then please consider this, and if you feel strongly about it I'd be happy to discuss it with you, preferably by PM. I apologise slightly for being the author of a large number of these posts, but I have tried to include everything that meets the above criteria. Also, I have generally included pictures for each model variant only on their first posting.

I hope to be able to update the sticky as new posts in this thread qualify, perhaps after each 100 new posts. It may also be possible to collect important information from some other shorter threads, but this is subject to Ronald's agreement.


----------



## Michael Reichmann

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches - help for newcomers*

My DS-8 arrived earlier today and I'll start by saying that I'm quite pleased with many aspects of its design. If its ability to keep accurate time to the claimed +/- 10 SPY holds true then I'll be more than pleased.

I really like the design of the moon phase...one of the reasons that I bought this model. The only let down is that setting the moon phase exactly means hacking the watch as well. Fortunately, it's a full moon in two days, and once I've set the time and the moon phase I hope that having to do this again will only happen twice a year, for daylight saving time, as the hour hand can not be set separately.

The second hand is hard to set exactly, requiring before the second is hacked that the hands need to be moved out of the way. I wonder why, since the hands are motor driven. It would have been trivial to move them to a parking position so that there is no obstruction to exact time setting. Moon phase setting could also have been separated from hacking.

But overall it appears to be a keeper.

Michael


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches - help for newcomers*



chris01 said:


> This thread has grown almost beyond belief, becoming the longest and most read on this forum. It is not an easy task for the newcomer to get up to speed on these watches, and rather a tedious task to find something that you remember seeing a year ago. So I have abstracted some posts and, with grateful thanks to Ronald for doing the hard work, we now have a sticky that may help: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds2-faq-3020610.html
> 
> The objective is to collect useful facts about the PreciDrive movements and watches, together with performance data and some individual reviews. I have deliberately omitted general discussion not specific to these watches, and most of the purely subjective opinions. If your treasured thoughts are missing then please consider this, and if you feel strongly about it I'd be happy to discuss it with you, preferably by PM. I apologise slightly for being the author of a large number of these posts, but I have tried to include everything that meets the above criteria. Also, I have generally included pictures for each model variant only on their first posting.
> 
> I hope to be able to update the sticky as new posts in this thread qualify, perhaps after each 100 new posts. It may also be possible to collect important information from some other shorter threads, but this is subject to Ronald's agreement.


For the indefinite future please do not post in the summary thread.


----------



## wbird

Michael, have to say March is not one of the better months to set the moonphase complication, I wouldn't sweat the accuracy to much.

I'm not sure the rate of adjustment for the display of the DS8, but on my Citizen it moves the display in increments of 7.5 hours. Which means if I set my watch in March, my display would be off a bunch of the time in Oct, Nov, Dec, and Jan. I'm guessing the DS8 will have similar issues.

I would suggest you can be a little lax on the March setup, and really dial it in, in August. That would be the optimum setting till the battery dies.

Chris thanks for taking on this thread, just one thought, would it be possible to just separate the 3 hand, chronograph, and moon phase? It seems to me the questions and concerns are completely different, once you figure out which has a precidrive and which ones have a powerdrive, the Ds-2 is a pretty big umbrella. Does the owner of a 3 hand diver care about setting the moon phase?


----------



## Michael Reichmann

Right you are.

9:27 UTC on August 18th it is.

Michael


----------



## chris01

wbird said:


> Chris thanks for taking on this thread, just one thought, would it be possible to just separate the 3 hand, chronograph, and moon phase? It seems to me the questions and concerns are completely different, once you figure out which has a precidrive and which ones have a powerdrive, the Ds-2 is a pretty big umbrella. Does the owner of a 3 hand diver care about setting the moon phase?


Yes you have a point, but I can see no future in starting two more stickies. Soon there will be a need for one on PreciDrive alarm watches, PreciDrive+GPS, etc. I certainly have no wish to see the prolonged debate on moon phase setting elevated to the status of a permanent monument. If someone works out the optimum technique then we could usefully add it as a single post to the sticky. If you want to have separate running threads you need to submit a proposal to Ronald and work out how to implement it, including copying or moving posts to new threads. This new sticky is just intended to be a convenient reference point for basic information (which might usefully include other PD data), and I hope it will not grow significantly larger, or we'll be back where we started.


----------



## wbird

All good points Chris. I didn't envision a separate sticky for each of the iterations. Separate threads would've sufficed. But at this point it seems that this would require a ton of effort.

I think the only path to recovery would be for the 3 hand folks to use the recently started diver thread. Perhaps when Michael receives his DS8 he could start a new thread. As you said let the alarm and GMT folks do the same. The chronograph folks could continue to use the monster thread since it represents the bulk of the posts.

I'm just throwing some ideas out there, I really don't want to create a bunch of work for anyone, maybe others have a better answer or way to solve this problem.


----------



## Michael Reichmann

I'd be happy to start a thread for the DS-8 if the admin supports it.

This watch is one of the least expensive TC chronographs available, and because of its excellent moon phase complication something special, especially for people in North America where Certina isn't marketed. Availability from online dealers is straightforward though.

Michael


----------



## chris01

Michael Reichmann said:


> I'd be happy to start a thread for the DS-8 if the admin supports it.
> 
> This watch is one of the least expensive TC chronographs available, and because of its excellent moon phase complication something special, especially for people in North America where Certina isn't marketed. Availability from online dealers is straightforward though.
> 
> Michael


I don't think Ronald will object to your thread, as the DS-8 discussion has grown rapidly, especially the stuff about setting it. What you might want to consider is moving or copying all the DS-8 posts from this thread. But you should talk nicely to Ronald before you start, as he will have to do most of the work!


----------



## kapahoo

There used to be a DS-8-thread. Perhaps it is recoverable?

I believe ETA showed a new precidrive moon phase at Baselworld. Haven't seen any watch with it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmathes

kapahoo said:


> There used to be a DS-8-thread. Perhaps it is recoverable?
> 
> I believe ETA showed a new precidrive moon phase at Baselworld. Haven't seen any watch with it though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're correct Kapahoo, I found this press release from ETA, it also includes some small sample photos.

ETA Intro

ETA is putting out some interesting HAQ movements the last few years. Good to see. Does it mean Swatch Group will see a lot of it's brands offer more HAQ? Can't see putting that kind of development cash and not use it in their finished product.


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## webvan

The ETA G10.962 EO PWD ? Doesn't seem to be Precidrive, i.e. HAQ ?


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## tmathes

webvan said:


> The ETA G10.962 EO PWD ? Doesn't seem to be Precidrive, i.e. HAQ ?


It is a confusing press release, the title implies Powerdrive and Precidrive are integrated technologies, so with PoDr you get PrDr. I think.


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> It is a confusing press release, the title implies Powerdrive and Precidrive are integrated technologies, so with PoDr you get PrDr. I think.


They seem to enjoy being vague. What I have understood since the first PreciDrive appeared is that all this new technology has PowerDrive, giving high resolution hand movement and function programmability. On top of that is the optional TC PreciDrive, with some calibres being announced (even if not actually available) as PwD or PwD+PrD. Of the 7 items shown it appears that only the second one is PreciDrive.

What I'd like to know is where all these different movements are going. Since it seems likely that ETA doesn't design and produce loads of movements just for bragging rights, surely they have a defined market for them. Otherwise it's like VAG producing diesel and petrol engines in every conceivable configuration, capacity and output and hoping that at least some of them fit the marketing strategies of VW/Audi/SEAT/Skoda, and maybe GM and Ford as well. I'm still thinking that we will eventually see all the mainstream quartz watches from Swatch receiving at least a PowerDrive movement.


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## mikahe

tmathes said:


> ETA Intro


Sounds like 251.264 minus IAHH (i.e. time zone) function. Not that interesting movement, unless the TC has improved from 251.264 which is subject to unexpected variation at least between worn/not worn states.


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## chris01

mikahe said:


> Sounds like 251.264 minus IAHH (i.e. time zone) function. Not that interesting movement, unless the TC has improved from 251.264 which is subject to unexpected variation at least between worn/not worn states.


If you know of any temperature insensitive TC movement I'd be very interested to hear about it. I believe that anyone who has done serious testing of HAQs would not find such variation to be 'unexpected', whether affected by wearing pattern or by seasonal ambient temperatures. In those respects the 251.264 does not seem to be unusual.


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## wbird

I think I have an idea where most of these movements are going. Tissot, Longines and Certina seem to get most of the nice ones. Than Hamilton, Mido get a few, than you would be surprised what they are putting in a few of the CK watches.

They still are supplying Breitling, Tag, Christopher Ward, Movado and others. 

Considering that most of the movements in Power Drive and Fashionline are just modifications of the base movement to accommodate different dial displays and to allow for different complications it's not surprising that they would have a lot of variants.

The Precidrive seems to be part of the thermoline product line, though it incorporates features from the power drive line, obviously it's not used a lot across the various brands.

Swatch did say they plan to focus more on quartz after (to them) the surprising high sales of smart watches. Their initial offerings in the smart watch market from Tissot have not made much of an impression, even at pricing similar to Apple.

For us consumers this is all good. I've been tracking Certina and some other quartz watches that I was thinking of buying and the price compression and discounting I've been seeing in the last 6 months is pretty nice.

I was tracking Certina for the brown face GMT, like the look but just power drive, couldn't help but notice the other models. I don't really need a new DS8 but for 480$ US, or a precidrive chronograph for 350$, I'm kind of tempted.


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## webvan

tmathes said:


> It is a confusing press release, the title implies Powerdrive and Precidrive are integrated technologies, so with PoDr you get PrDr. I think.


If you look at Page 3 it seems pretty clear which ones are Powerdrive or Powerdrive+Precidrive and the the new Moon Phase movement is only Powerdrive. Not that it really matters since the DS-8, which I understand is Precidrive looks "nicer".


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## kapahoo

If you look at this:
https://shopb2b.eta.ch/g10-962.html

it seems you cannot choose moonphase and precidrive. You can however ask for COSC certification. Guess the last option is just a bug in web page though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## webvan

Interesting link, I only see a "Not Certified" option under "COSC" though? That would be consistent with the lack of PreciDrive.


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## kapahoo

What you see van perhaps be dependant on which browser or platform (pc, phone...) you use.

Btw, since we are in the Certina thread - did they release anything of interest at Basel?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

While it's interesting to see ETA's offerings on a public web site, it seems most unlikely that another Swatch Group company has to select and buy its movements by this route. So the precise configuration of a particular movement in a Certina watch may be rather different from the 'public' offering.


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## Michael Reichmann

I'd like to return to the DS-8, which I've now lived with for several day.

Today is a full moon, actually its a few minutes from when I write this at 12:00 GMT. The watch has quite a nice moon phase display, which is one of the reasons that I bought it. And so, because its lunar display is quite precise I wanted to set it on the day of a full moon to get it right.

This is when my first disappointment occurred. To set the moon display means that the time is hacked. In other words, I lost my time setting. No big deal, but annoying, because I had meticulously set the time when I first got the watch, hoping not to do so again until the Fall when I'd check the thermo-coupled movement's accuracy prior to changing to Standard Time again.

My next disappointment was noticed the first day I had it, but is worth mentioning here. When pulling out the crown to the third position for time setting, the end of the chrono sweep second hand covers the 0 position of the 6'oclock position seconds dial, thus preventing 0 seconds from being seen. Since the zero position is somewhat indeterminate because the seconds dial's use of upper and lower cutouts it makes the whole process a crap shoot.

I have to say that overall I find the design of the DS-8 attractive, and hopefully its TC movement will impress, but these two annoyances have somewhat taken the bloom off the rose.

Michael


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## webvan

A few oversights indeed it seems... How's the legibility of the chrono? Should be 10x better than your average (more like 99% chrono offeronfs out there) thanks to the hour "box". 

@chris01 - good point, still there's no official indication at this point that the new moon phase version is TC unlike what was originally written here.


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## chris01

If you go to that link to the 'shop' https://shopb2b.eta.ch/g10-962.html and scroll to the bottom of the page then select Documents/Documents Techniques you get the list of tech docs for the G10.962 calibre. Look at the Manufacturing Information list, where there are two PRD and two PWD models. If you read the relevant PDFs you'll see that the EO model is moon phase + PWD only, while the BH model is moon phase + PWD + PRD. Inhibition periods are 60 and 960 seconds, respectively. BH is the one used in the DS-8.

OK?


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## Michael Reichmann

webvan said:


> A few oversights indeed it seems... How's the legibility of the chrono? Should be 10x better than your average (more like 99% chrono offeronfs out there) thanks to the hour "box".


No problem at all with the chrono portion, and yes, I do like the hour box.... a clever design.

The more I look at the face, the more it seems to me that the seconds window and the moon phase window should be swapped. That would create much greater readability all around.

Michael


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## tmathes

webvan said:


> If you look at Page 3 it seems pretty clear which ones are Powerdrive or Powerdrive+Precidrive and the the new Moon Phase movement is only Powerdrive. Not that it really matters since the DS-8, which I understand is Precidrive looks "nicer".


The DS-8 is marked "Precidrive" on the dial. IT doesn't have the high-speed chrono hand though, so it's obviously not Powerdrive.

So far, mine has been trending to 15 sec/year. Due to the larger number of watches I own I wear it maybe once every week or two. So, to me it's plenty accurate enough. If I wore it daily I'm guessing it would hit the sub 10s/yr mark.


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> While it's interesting to see ETA's offerings on a public web site, it seems most unlikely that another Swatch Group company has to select and buy its movements by this route. So the precise configuration of a particular movement in a Certina watch may be rather different from the 'public' offering.


This appears to be the case for the movement in the DS-8. I was never able to find it on the ETA web site, it seems (for now) to be unique to Certina.


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## tmathes

Michael Reichmann said:


> I'd like to return to the DS-8, which I've now lived with for several day.
> 
> Today is a full moon, actually its a few minutes from when I write this at 12:00 GMT. The watch has quite a nice moon phase display, which is one of the reasons that I bought it. And so, because its lunar display is quite precise I wanted to set it on the day of a full moon to get it right.
> 
> This is when my first disappointment occurred. To set the moon display means that the time is hacked. In other words, I lost my time setting. No big deal, but annoying, because I had meticulously set the time when I first got the watch, hoping not to do so again until the Fall when I'd check the thermo-coupled movement's accuracy prior to changing to Standard Time again.
> 
> My next disappointment was noticed the first day I had it, but is worth mentioning here. When pulling out the crown to the third position for time setting, the end of the chrono sweep second hand covers the 0 position of the 6'oclock position seconds dial, thus preventing 0 seconds from being seen. Since the zero position is somewhat indeterminate because the seconds dial's use of upper and lower cutouts it makes the whole process a crap shoot.
> 
> I have to say that overall I find the design of the DS-8 attractive, and hopefully its TC movement will impress, but these two annoyances have somewhat taken the bloom off the rose.
> 
> Michael


Yes, I believe noted both of those same irritations myself previously in this thread. I did figure out a simple work-around for the second hand/chrono second hand issue.

When in the 1st pulled out crown position, temporarily adjust the chrono sweep second hand to, say, the 10 second mark. Then, pull out the crown completely to adjust the time. Next, go back and put the sweep second hand back at 0. Kind of clunky but it gets around not being able to see the second hand hit the zero mark.

Also, when you set the moon phase, a single click doesn't seem to do anything. Another owner here noted that you have to press several times, like 5-10 to see appreciable movement. That does work, it's just such a miniscule movement I didn't think a few pressed did much. Of course if you hold it down it'll move in a motorized fashion. That's when I realized "hey, this is motor driven moon phase dial, not just a mechanical movement like I'm used to seeing".


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## ronalddheld

partially answers the Basel question: TimeZone : Public Forum » Basel 2016 - ETA Moonphase Caliber G10


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> The DS-8 is marked "Precidrive" on the dial. IT doesn't have the high-speed chrono hand though, so it's obviously not Powerdrive.


I'm sorry, I think you are mistaken. PowerDrive is the underlying technology for this generation of watches. It has the ability to drive the hands up to 200 jumps/sec. That does not mean that it has to.

Read the two tech docs I referred to above. Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches - Page 75

The BH movement is the one in your watch, as you can see here: Watch Details | certina.

PreciDrive is an extension of the technology to provide TC.


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## chris01

As an indication of where Certina seems to be going, here is a summary of the watches currently displayed on their web site certina.com.

Plain quartz models: 12 (95 variants)
PreciDrive models: 13 (82 variants)
PowerDrive models: none
Automatic models: 15 (95 variants)
Handwound models: none
Total models: 40 (272 variants)

Two years ago there was one PreciDrive model, with around 10 variants.


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## wbird

Well Michael, I guess in all the excitement you kind of forgot to make a new DS-8 thread.

I think it may work out for the best, it seem like any new thread can kind of of selective and summarize the result as opposed to the process. Folks can repost things:

Like a DS-8 has a PW /PD movement. Not part of the fashion line movements, part of the thermoline.

I think you guys have figured out how to set that bad boy. Maybe the highlights, including a moon phase reference.

Accuracy tracking

And of course everybody's favorite the inevitable battery change with the movement photo.

Or we can see if this thread can break 10k. By the way why is it that Tissot, Certina's American cousin has its own brand thread and Certina doesn't? Seems a little rude.


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## Michael Reichmann

No, I didn't forget. I just decided there I wasn't sensing a strong following for one.

Also, I am cooling a bit toward it. I have a relatively large collection, and when I compared its frustration-to-reward ratio I find that the piece's only real strength is its hard-to-set accurately but highly accurate moon phase display. It's uncanny how it moves invisibly yet continuously.

The Chrono works quite well, but the seconds dial is a design abomination. Accurate time setting, as mentioned, is a chore; so overall a mixed bag. It wears well. We'll just have to see how it does in the accuracy department. Not much more to say for now. I'll wear it regularly, and will report on accuracy in a few months as we move from cold to warmer weather.

Michael


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## yankeexpress

FWIW, this one has been dead-nuts accurate over the last month, parked in my safe.


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## jisham

Apologies if this is the wrong thread to post to, mods feel free to move this, but it seems there is some interest in accuracy tracking of Precidrive 3-handers here.

Here is the newest member of the family, a DS-2 3-hand:








Bought during a recent "march madness" sale at a shop that starts with J and rhymes with roma. I believe that's gray market and NOT an AD, although they did mention a warranty.

model ref is C024.410.16.051.01 (.01 means yellow hands/stitching). Best I can tell it's the ETA F06.411 movement, which is Precidrive and Thermocompensated. Dial has precidrive markings.

I'm not a big fan of the looks, I prefer some of the pictures on this forum of the red hands, although the yellow is not so obnoxious in real life. The carbon fiber dial is also a bit more understated than I originally feared. I think these are the old models on clearance, there seem to be newer models with more "classic" looks out now.

I really wanted the 3-hander for the sweep seconds hand, instead of a seconds subdial - makes my HAQ measuring/setting of the watch easier.

First peeks into the accuracy tracking:








Some of you may be familiar with my measurement method (derived from the wisdom of this forum), but for the others a quick primer. I use a GPS with PPS output for a reference clock, and use an inductive pickup to capture the stepper motor pulses that drive the second hand. These are sampled with 192KHz soundcard. The red marks are the watch tick time offsets referenced to the PPS pulse. Note that this is nearly every tick of the watch over almost 4 days. The blue marks are the average offset over a full 480s inhibition period of the watch. If the PPS reference is lost, the inhibition average is re-started. Sharp eyed viewers may notice dropouts. The green line is a linear fit of all the inhibition averages. The slope of the line is an estimate of the rate of the watch. +-10spy is marked by the black lines.

I'm observing an average rate of -19.2 spy over this 4 day period. [I am aware I may have the +- sense backwards, I think the watch is actually running + fast, not - slow]. This is in an office ambient environment, with no wrist time. Admittedly, this probably doesn't match the environment the watch was regulated to. My spreadsheet tracking is in close agreement at -0.426s over 8.69 days for an estimated rate of -18spy. It seems to run at a slightly better rate with wrist time, but I just starting to collect this data and it's too early to draw conclusions.

Certina's documentation is sketchy. I've heard 10 spy mentioned often on this forum, mostly in reference to chronos, with several specimens performing better than this, and a couple of specimens that don't. I think I've been spoiled by my VHP's so I'm not happy with anything over +-2 spy. I have to remind myself this is still my 4th most accurate HAQ, and 19spy is actually good, and is within the COSC quartz spec (no certification is attempted for this model). I'm not sure where we draw the line for HAQ (15spy? 25?), so depending on your definition, it may or may not be HAQ.

The only numbers I can see are from ETA's documentation on the F06.411 (IH_F06411_FDE_592600_01.pdf, link lost, try google or ETA's website)








These seem to mirror the COSC quartz spec and say that +-10spy is "typical" at 23 degC and min/max is +-26spy. So it is running within spec, even if it is not running within my expectations.

I know others on this forum have returned ds-2 chronos for being outside +-10spy... it seems this model has followed the Precisionist play-book and hidden, then loosened the spec. I don't imagine returning this one would be successful, since it seems to be in-spec :-(


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## Hans Moleman

Well it is in spec at 23 degrees. You could check at the other temperatures.
Admittedly that is a lot more effort.

I do like the COSC specs since they are hard and fast. Not the airy fairy 'when worn regularly'.

The 10 seconds per year is the rate over an entire year.
The actual rate varies with the temperature during that year: A crap shoot.

Good to see you've got the measurements going.


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## mikahe

Ok, so we have a thermocompensated movement which works typically +-10 SPY at precisely +23 degC. But if you're unlucky it can be also +-26 SPY. 
But if you can't thermocontrol the ambient temperature for the watch with this precision, your mileage may vary. 
I'm beginning to get the idea of thermocompensation.


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## chris01

Browsing the ETA Shop B2B (https://shopb2b.eta.ch/quartz-line.html) produces some interesting results when you filter the search for specific features.

Selecting PowerDrive and PreciDrive calibres, there are only three models that include the 'time zone' function. The G10.962 includes the moon phase version but also has a version with a 24-hour local time sub-dial, which can be adjusted independently but only when the crown is pulled out stopping the seconds hand. So that one doesn't qualify as IAHH. The other two models, which have proper IAHH, are the 251.264 chrono as used in the DS-2, and the 251.274 chrono.

The only other IAHH models are non TC: two older 3-handers and four ana-digi, three of which have perpetual calendar.

There is one PrD/PwD model with perpetual calendar, the G15.562, which has a retrograde day/date/month display, but no IAHH.


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## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> Browsing the ETA Shop B2B (https://shopb2b.eta.ch/quartz-line.html) produces some interesting results when you filter the search for specific features.
> 
> Selecting PowerDrive and PreciDrive calibres, there are only three models that include the 'time zone' function. The G10.962 includes the moon phase version but also has a version with a 24-hour local time sub-dial, which can be adjusted independently but only when the crown is pulled out stopping the seconds hand. So that one doesn't qualify as IAHH. The other two models, which have proper IAHH, are the 251.264 chrono as used in the DS-2, and the 251.274 chrono.
> 
> The only other IAHH models are non TC: two older 3-handers and four ana-digi, three of which have perpetual calendar.
> 
> There is one PrD/PwD model with perpetual calendar, the G15.562, which has a retrograde day/date/month display, but no IAHH.


Slightly strange that you cannot get one movement out of all of them with IAHH and PC>


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Slightly strange that you cannot get one movement out of all of them with IAHH and PC>


Especially so, when you consider that a notable feature of Baselworld 2016 was an increasing number of PCs being available in moderately-priced mechanical watches.


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## tmathes

Has anyone figured out how to download a PDF copy of a user's manual off Certina's "new and improved" web site? I've tried several combinations to get a DS-2 manual but have failed.

I wrote to their Customer Service to get a copy or at least tell me how to use their horrid download feature, which for US customers goes to Swatch USA. In typical Swatch customer indifference I've not received any reply and it's been over 10 days now. At least Citizen and Seiko reply with at worst case within a few days.

While I like my Omegas and Certinas I'm question if I'll buy another Swatch product again based on their (lack of) customer service. I know I'll get bashed for this but Swatch Group acts too much like the stereotypical Eurosnob. As I've said before, it won't be smart watches or the Japanese that put the Swiss out of business, it's their indifferent at best (obnoxious at worst) customer treatment.


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> Has anyone figured out how to download a PDF copy of a user's manual off Certina's "new and improved" web site? I've tried several combinations to get a DS-2 manual but have failed.
> 
> I wrote to their Customer Service to get a copy or at least tell me how to use their horrid download feature, which for US customers goes to Swatch USA. In typical Swatch customer indifference I've not received any reply and it's been over 10 days now. At least Citizen and Seiko reply with at worst case within a few days.
> 
> While I like my Omegas and Certinas I'm question if I'll buy another Swatch product again based on their (lack of) customer service. I know I'll get bashed for this but Swatch Group acts too much like the stereotypical Eurosnob. As I've said before, it won't be smart watches or the Japanese that put the Swiss out of business, it's their indifferent at best (obnoxious at worst) customer treatment.


I don't think you should get paranoid about 'Eurosnob' treatment. They seem to treat every potential customer with equal disdain. I have asked several questions that have all been ignored, and I'm (sort of, but reluctantly) European.

The user manual fiasco is extraordinary. At least you used to be able to get something, even if it didn't actually refer to the watch of interest.

If you PM me with an email address I'll send you a DS-2 manual.


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## ronalddheld

tmathes said:


> Has anyone figured out how to download a PDF copy of a user's manual off Certina's "new and improved" web site? I've tried several combinations to get a DS-2 manual but have failed.
> 
> I wrote to their Customer Service to get a copy or at least tell me how to use their horrid download feature, which for US customers goes to Swatch USA. In typical Swatch customer indifference I've not received any reply and it's been over 10 days now. At least Citizen and Seiko reply with at worst case within a few days.
> 
> While I like my Omegas and Certinas I'm question if I'll buy another Swatch product again based on their (lack of) customer service. I know I'll get bashed for this but Swatch Group acts too much like the stereotypical Eurosnob. As I've said before, it won't be smart watches or the Japanese that put the Swiss out of business, it's their indifferent at best (obnoxious at worst) customer treatment.


let us know if that PDF ever surfaces.


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## jisham

chris01 said:


> The user manual fiasco is extraordinary. At least you used to be able to get something, even if it didn't actually refer to the watch of interest.


The manual that came with my DS-2 3-hand was for analog mechanical watches... and the closest I could find online was for all certina quartz watches, with no mention of precidrive.


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## tmathes

As an aside, the reason I wanted a DS-2 manual is I (finally) got my DS-2 Titanium last week. The first one had badly aligned chrono second hands and the hour hand didn't hit the hour mark until 3-4 minutes past the hour. This replacement has much better hand alignment but the tachy dial is a skewed slight counter-clockwise. No way I'm waiting 6 weeks to get this one replaced, it's good enough. I received it March 23, since I set it it's gained time a tiny bit, my guess is it'll track similar to my DS-8 (it's around 1 sec/month).

I also purchased the Certina black/red strap+deployant, same as used in the stainless black/red dialed watch. Quality is nice but if you're considering purchasing it, don't do it. The reason is the tucking under the deployant style, while making for a clean look, makes for a ill-fitting band (in particular if you have modest sized wrists like me, around 7"). Stick with an after-market strap if you want to swap the bracelet. Price surprisingly was quite reasonable though (I purchased it at the same time as the watch from our favorite Spanish AD).


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## Michael Reichmann

I have the PDF of their DS-8 manual. If anyone needs it, please PM me.

Michael


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## kapahoo

Daylight savings.
My DS-8 have been running fast by 1 sec/month this last period. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

Just a suggestion for new PreciDrive owners. My experience with the DS-2 chrono is that it runs faster when cold than when warm. Even with daily (daytime only) wear it runs 2-3 SPY faster in winter than in summer. So if your watch is running fast when unworn, try a period of wearing it. Certina's 10 SPY "under normal conditions of use" probably doesn't include being in a rotation of 20 watches.

Strangely I have found that the older TC movements used in the Longines VHPs usually show the opposite effect of temperature.


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## jisham

chris01 said:


> Just a suggestion for new PreciDrive owners. My experience with the DS-2 chrono is that it runs faster when cold than when warm. Even with daily (daytime only) wear it runs 2-3 SPY faster in winter than in summer. So if your watch is running fast when unworn, try a period of wearing it. Certina's 10 SPY "under normal conditions of use" probably doesn't include being in a rotation of 20 watches.
> 
> Strangely I have found that the older TC movements used in the Longines VHPs usually show the opposite effect of temperature.


Mine does seem to be doing slightly better when worn more... too soon for real numbers.
[EDIT: it does seem to run closer 10 spy when on wrist, but still averaging around 18spy with mixed on-day/off-night wear]

I guess you can't fault a company for regulating a watch with the expectation that it will be worn, and not anticipating a freak HAQ'er like me who is looking for a desk chronometer


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## chris01

jisham said:


> Mine does seem to be doing slightly better when worn more... too soon for real numbers.
> [EDIT: it does seem to run closer 10 spy when on wrist, but still averaging around 18spy with mixed on-day/off-night wear]
> 
> I guess you can't fault a company for regulating a watch with the expectation that it will be worn, and not anticipating a freak HAQ'er like me who is looking for a desk chronometer


No reason why it couldn't sit on top of a permanently on, slightly warm, piece of equipment like a router.


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## mikahe

I have a little confession to make. Yesterday I placed an order of DS-2 PreciDrive Chrono ref C024.447.11.081.00 (this is actually the same ref as in the very first chris01's post in the thread). These are my personal reasonings:


Pros:
+ (Main selling point) I wanted a slightly more shiny bracelet and good looks in some selected office days, more than in my current watches which are mostly black bracelet, mesh or leather
+ 12 hour chrono is sometimes useful and 30/60 minutes is often too short. Currently I'm using bidirectional (internal) bezel several times a day for two hours, and that's available only in one watch. One diver that doesn't get much wrist time has unidirectional bezel.
+ Metal bracelet and water resistance equals worryless everyday usage for years to come, even though I might not wear this too much at least in the beginning.
+ IAHH (time zone) function so no needless time setting.


Cons:
- I don't have high expectations on the accuracy, especially compared to my three Bulova UHF's (98B247, 98B245 and 96B205) which have been spot on where one manages to set them. No drift observed as with ordinary clocks. 
- I wonder how tedious the short month date adjustment will be. On the positive side the DST/STD time will amount to nothing in comparison. 
- Hopefully no quality issues to reclaim from my AD.


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## chris01

mikahe said:


> I have a little confession to make. Yesterday I placed an order of DS-2 PreciDrive Chrono ref C024.447.11.081.00 (this is actually the same ref as in the very first chris01's post in the thread). These are my personal reasonings:
> 
> Pros:
> + (Main selling point) I wanted a slightly more shiny bracelet and good looks in some selected office days, more than in my current watches which are mostly black bracelet, mesh or leather
> + 12 hour chrono is sometimes useful and 30/60 minutes is often too short. Currently I'm using bidirectional (internal) bezel several times a day for two hours, and that's available only in one watch. One diver that doesn't get much wrist time has unidirectional bezel.
> + Metal bracelet and water resistance equals worryless everyday usage for years to come, even though I might not wear this too much at least in the beginning.
> + IAHH (time zone) function so no needless time setting.
> 
> Cons:
> - I don't have high expectations on the accuracy, especially compared to my three Bulova UHF's (98B247, 98B245 and 96B205) which have been spot on where one manages to set them. No drift observed as with ordinary clocks.
> - I wonder how tedious the short month date adjustment will be. On the positive side the DST/STD time will amount to nothing in comparison.
> - Hopefully no quality issues to reclaim from my AD.


Good for you. I hope you'll be very pleased with it.

You may find the large shiny centre parts of the bracelet will show scratches rather easily. It's not too difficult to mask the brushed bits and re-polish, or as I did to brush the whole bracelet, giving a finish that I prefer.

Accuracy hasn't been much of an issue so far, although as I mentioned a couple of posts back you may need to wear it reasonably often to meet the specification.

Short dates and DST are a minor consideration, once you learn how to pull out the crown only one click, not two.  I suggest practising this before you start an extended period of timing. Since it works in both directions there's no problem if you overshoot on the hour setting.

Ultimate quality seems to be a matter of luck. I had absolutely no problems with mine but I know others have seen a few things to complain about.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Good for you. I hope you'll be very pleased with it.
> 
> You may find the large shiny centre parts of the bracelet will show scratches rather easily. It's not too difficult to mask the brushed bits and re-polish, or as I did to brush the whole bracelet, giving a finish that I prefer.
> 
> Accuracy hasn't been much of an issue so far, although as I mentioned a couple of posts back you may need to wear it reasonably often to meet the specification.
> 
> Short dates and DST are a minor consideration, once you learn how to pull out the crown only one click, not two.  I suggest practising this before you start an extended period of timing. Since it works in both directions there's no problem if you overshoot on the hour setting.
> 
> Ultimate quality seems to be a matter of luck. I had absolutely no problems with mine but I know others have seen a few things to complain about.


Likely this is alluding to my experience with my 1st DS-2.

I purchased it from our favorite Spanish AD. The hands on it were quite misaligned out of the box. The two sweep second hands did not come close to aligning on top of each other, you could easily tell there were two hands. Even my wife, not remotely close to a WIS, said it looked pretty bad. One hand was skewed a bit counterclockwise, one slight clockwise.

The hour hand was off too. It would hit the hour mark at 3-4 min. past the hour. When the minute hand was on the top of the hour, it was brazenly obvious the hour hand wasn't close on the hour marker. For the price Certina charges that was not acceptable. Watches I own that are 1/10th the price don't have any of these problems.

The dealer took it back for exchange no cost to me at all, there's a reason why he's our favorite Certina seller! It took a while (3 weeks) for a new one to come in, compared to 10 days for the original. He does not stock the model I bought, the titanium version. I received the replacement last week.

The replacement is vastly better, the tachy dial is slightly misaligned but I can live with it. The date display also has an unusual quirk, the days between 10-19 are slightly skewed to the left in the window but 1-9 and 20-31 are spot on. Again, I can live with it. The only item I do not care for to this day is the IAHH. I know a lot of members of this forum demand a HAQ have one but I am among the dissenters, the mechanism allows the hour hand to be too easily misaligned and over time I've heard from watchmakers it does give problems (check for posts from Archer on the Omega forum about IAHH).

My DS-8 though, from the same dealer, was perfect out of the box. Love both watches, I just wish Swatch would distribute them in the US or at least offer them under another brand easily available in the US like Tissot.


----------



## mikahe

chris01 said:


> Good for you. I hope you'll be very pleased with it.


Now that I have had the watch on my wrist once around the clock, I can add a few bullet points

Pros:
+ Looks was just as expected from the pics, i.e. vey nice. Maybe it could be even 2mm wider in diameter (see the minute hand issue). 
+ Chrono split time function was something I wasn't aware of. Nice feature as well.

Cons:
- Due to the quite much discussed over-sized minute hand the minute setting is really hard. No such issues with seconds hand, except that there the index vs. hand alignment isn't very good. No other quality issues.

One of the bracelet pins was playing hardball and won against my Chinese tool. I had to give up and fix the tool, which is still better than a hammer and a nail. So I ended up removing three wide links from the top side of the watch - and that was actually a very good thing. Now the buckle is out of sight the most, which improves the looks even more, IMHO.


----------



## mikahe

Hooray! Certina's website user manual download is finally working!


----------



## tmathes

mikahe said:


> Hooray! Certina's website user manual download is finally working!


I see they felt threatened by my 2 emails telling them their manual download system was busted.

You're welcome everyone. :-d


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I see they felt threatened by my 2 emails telling them their manual download system was busted.
> 
> You're welcome everyone. :-d


Thank you, Superwatchman, the people of Quartzville will be eternally grateful.

Now, if you would like to be admitted to the HAQ Hall of Fame, please lose the silly cape and the embarrassing tights.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to persuade Certina to refuse anything from ETA that is lacking an independently-adjustable hour hand and a perpetual calendar.

This post will self-destruct in 15 seconds. 15...14... ... damit, I forgot to recharge my smart watch.


----------



## surr3a1

Well, it is here at last...

Something which is bothering me a little is the automatic hand adjustment, which happens once a hour. The minute hand is not always perfectly aligned to the 30min mark (as you can see from the photo), same with the small second hand at 6 o'clock. In any case I can live with this but I'd really prefer that they were perfectly aligned. I am wondering if they will laugh at me if I would decide and take it to the service center to get this fixed?
Thanks!


----------



## Tom-HK

I'm sure they won't laugh at you, however they will probably explain that the misalignment is within acceptable tolerances. The DS-2 represents a very good value proposition but it isn't uncommon for watches even at much higher price points to have hands that don't quite hit the markers. It's in the nature of the underlying technology, I'm afraid. That's not to say hands _can't_ be made to align perfectly, but, well, there are quite a few discussions on this particular point already (for just about any brand you care to mention) and a quick search might be better than reigniting this particular debate.

Anyway, congratulations on the acquisition and I hope you will keep a careful eye on its accuracy over time and report back on its progress.

Edit: sorry, I said 'DS-2', but I see this is actually talking about the DS-8. Still, the same message applies.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I'm sure they won't laugh at you, however they will probably explain that the misalignment is within acceptable tolerances. The DS-2 represents a very good value proposition but it isn't uncommon for watches even at much higher price points to have hands that don't quite hit the markers. It's in the nature of the underlying technology, I'm afraid. That's not to say hands _can't_ be made to align perfectly, but, well, there are quite a few discussions on this particular point already (for just about any brand you care to mention) and a quick search might be better than reigniting this particular debate.
> 
> Anyway, congratulations on the acquisition and I hope you will keep a careful eye on its accuracy over time and report back on its progress.
> 
> Edit: sorry, I said 'DS-2', but I see this is actually talking about the DS-8. Still, the same message applies.


This is the DS Podium Chronograph 1/100 second, which has the same movement as the DS-2 chrono. I agree with Tom about hand alignment, and I don't think the 30-minute hand is much to complain about. On my DS-2 the chrono 12-hour hand is about half a hand width out, while the others are perfect to the naked eye.

A point about the automatic (and manual) hand alignment: this affects only the two centre seconds and 1/100 seconds hands, the 12-hour counter at 10 o'clock, and the 30-minute counter at 2 o'clock. The 6 o'clock running seconds hand is not adjustable and it either hits the 5-second markers or it doesn't. If it's way out then that one is probably worth a conversation with SG Service.


----------



## surr3a1

Hey Chris, 
You are correct but since we are generally discussing the movements inside (which are the same), I didn't feel the need to correct Tom above. I called the official service here and the guy told me to get over there so that he can have a look and fix it. I am hoping that he didn't think it is the case where the hand is shifted with a whole mark or more and can be fixed with the crown at position II and the pusher buttons, which of course is a completely different situation.

My concern here if he would be able to dissasemble the watch and assemble it w/o leaving any marks in general like dust particles, messing up the position of the dial marks vs the bezel marks etc. I had a similar problem with a Seiko watch I had serviced before, hence my concern.

What usually happens is that the position of the hands (the minute at 2 o'clock and the 12 o'clock) would change a little during the day. The change would be from 'bad' to 'better' in terms of hitting the mark perfectly. So I was thinking that even if it is adjusted in the service, it would still move a little during the day, which of course might make the whole operation rather useless. The small hour hand at 10 o'clock is absolutely perfect every time though...

Thank you!


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> This is the DS Podium Chronograph


Of course it is. Sorry, I am losing my mind, today. Carry on.


----------



## chris01

surr3a1 said:


> Hey Chris,
> You are correct but since we are generally discussing the movements inside (which are the same), I didn't feel the need to correct Tom above. I called the official service here and the guy told me to get over there so that he can have a look and fix it. I am hoping that he didn't think it is the case where the hand is shifted with a whole mark or more and can be fixed with the crown at position II and the pusher buttons, which of course is a completely different situation.
> 
> My concern here if he would be able to dissasemble the watch and assemble it w/o leaving any marks in general like dust particles, messing up the position of the dial marks vs the bezel marks etc. I had a similar problem with a Seiko watch I had serviced before, hence my concern.
> 
> What usually happens is that the position of the hands (the minute at 2 o'clock and the 12 o'clock) would change a little during the day. The change would be from 'bad' to 'better' in terms of hitting the mark perfectly. So I was thinking that even if it is adjusted in the service, it would still move a little during the day, which of course might make the whole operation rather useless. The small hour hand at 10 o'clock is absolutely perfect every time though...
> 
> Thank you!


It is very rare that Tom needs any correction. 

I think the big worry here is that you'll send it in to be fixed and it will return with a different set of problems: the common issue with service centres. Let us know how it goes, and good luck!


----------



## surr3a1

So, I went to the service after work today. The guy admitted that there is a slight offset of the minute hand. According to him, it can be fixed by realigning the hand which would require full disassembling of the watch. His recommendation was that I do not do that because the chance that some dust particle would appear is high and because the watch is brand new. His advice was that if I still want to do it, to do so at the time of the regular watch maintenance, which of course won't happen any time soon.
All in all, I decided that it is not worth it for the moment.
Thanks!


----------



## chris01

surr3a1 said:


> So, I went to the service after work today. The guy admitted that there is a slight offset of the minute hand. According to him, it can be fixed by realigning the hand which would require full disassembling of the watch. His recommendation was that I do not do that because the chance that some dust particle would appear is high and because the watch is brand new. His advice was that if I still want to do it, to do so at the time of the regular watch maintenance, which of course won't happen any time soon.
> All in all, I decided that it is not worth it for the moment.
> Thanks!


Wise decision. Just try to relax and enjoy your watch. If you can, give us a report on the accuracy after a while.


----------



## wbird

Surr3a1, why don't you just have your friend in Spain replace it? I realize it's only around 500$ US for that watch but still wouldn't it be worthwhile to see if the replacement is better? The repair guy did say it's off, and considering you're the one that is going to live with it, what do you have to lose.

Just me but it would bother me a little more each day I let this slide. I would prefer to look forward to just battery replacements in the future not a complete overhaul.


----------



## surr3a1

Well, I actually got it from Amazon.com because they had the best possible price. Your suggestion goes two ways, what if the replacement is worse?
The running seconds hand is a bit weird, from 0 to 35 sec it is a little ahead of the marks but from 40 to 0 it is on the marks, sooo it is 60/40. I have to think that the marks are a little off. In any case I love this watch so much and I know that after a month these won't bother me as much.
As Chris said, I'll just enjoy it and live my life knowing that I have the watch of my dreams  (I'm not into mechanical watches).

P.S.
I have it since 6 days and so far it is accurate (time.is is my source) but I am checking it the old fashioned way without any specialized equipment. I'll just post a short reply when the difference is +/- 1sec.


----------



## wbird

All good, if you're happy with it that's cool. But me, it would be in the mail today. Amazon has a great return policy, and I have to have more faith in certina. I find it hard to believe that all their products are funky, especially since you're the only post to complain of this problem. Worse yet you will at some point be paying for a repair at some point unless you plan to live with this forever. I'm missing how this is a wise decision.

Again, just me, if you're happy with it that's all that really matters.


----------



## ronalddheld

wbird said:


> All good, if you're happy with it that's cool. But me, it would be in the mail today. Amazon has a great return policy, and I have to have more faith in certina. I find it hard to believe that all their products are funky, especially since you're the only post to complain of this problem. Worse yet you will at some point be paying for a repair at some point unless you plan to live with this forever. I'm missing how this is a wise decision.
> 
> Again, just me, if you're happy with it that's all that really matters.


Without creating a Firestorm, would anyone return it if the accuracy met spec?


----------



## surr3a1

wbird said:


> All good, if you're happy with it that's cool. But me, it would be in the mail today. Amazon has a great return policy, and I have to have more faith in certina. I find it hard to believe that all their products are funky, especially since you're the only post to complain of this problem. Worse yet you will at some point be paying for a repair at some point unless you plan to live with this forever. I'm missing how this is a wise decision.
> 
> Again, just me, if you're happy with it that's all that really matters.


It was ordered from Amazon.com, arrived to an address in US and was shipped back to Bulgaria (SE Europe) where I live. Returning it is something that would take a lot of money and effort, plus I just checked and it is not available anymore from Amazon. So, as I completely agree with your way of thinking, in this case I am not able to follow that route.
And to intercept your next question, this whole complicated process saved me around $500!


----------



## gangrel

surr3a1 said:


> And to intercept your next question, this whole complicated process saved me around $500!


Slightly OT, but stories like these...the English import duty travails in particular...tend to show how poor some of these tariff systems really are.


----------



## surr3a1

I think that it will shock you even more to know that the watch was originally in Israel, then it went to Belgium, UK and then USA. I got it from Amazon for a price which was almost 50% off the local one. So yeah, this is really beyond belief!


----------



## wbird

Sounds like you got a great deal on a well traveled watch. Understand completely now. I'm not sure what I would do. I might have the service center deal with it now. I would get a warranty on their work and my dream watch would be right. Right now you have I'm guessing an Amazon warranty you will never use. I could also see waiting till it needs service. Truly a tough call.

Just curious how much is this watch selling for in your country. In the US it goes for 375 euros, and it is in stock at a pretty common site that ships internationally. I know watches and other things like golf clubs get hammered on pricing in Europe and Asia. I've brought my share of "gifts" over for colleagues in Japan, England and Germany.


----------



## surr3a1

wbird said:


> Sounds like you got a great deal on a well traveled watch. Understand completely now. I'm not sure what I would do. I might have the service center deal with it now. I would get a warranty on their work and my dream watch would be right. Right now you have I'm guessing an Amazon warranty you will never use. I could also see waiting till it needs service. Truly a tough call.
> 
> Just curious how much is this watch selling for in your country. In the US it goes for 375 euros, and it is in stock at a pretty common site that ships internationally. I know watches and other things like golf clubs get hammered on pricing in Europe and Asia. I've brought my share of "gifts" over for colleagues in Japan, England and Germany.


The price here is around $1000, the one you quoted is pretty amazing but I wasn't able to find anything close to it. Anyhow it is done. We are getting a little OT here, so I'll just post a short comment once I am able to find a respectable wach repair shop and decide to use their services.

EDIT: I visited several services today including the one which services Breitling, Omega, Tag etc. and the guy who was quite proffesional, told me that it is doable, it is cheap but he would still recommend that we do not open the watch for that alone. He also told me, that if I hate it so much and can't live with it - he will fix it but will void the warranty. So I have to think if I want to do this or not.

EDIT2: I went to an official shop here to check the watches they have. I looked at 3 different watches and all of them had this defect on some of the hands. None of them had the running second hand hit the markers perfectly. One had both the hour and minute chronograph hands offset just like mine and even worse, one had the 12 o'clock hands offset and so on.

EDIT3: I've checked numerous photos of the watch all over the internet and on Certina's website... there is not a single watch that is perfect! All of them have issues here and there so I guess this comes with the price tag.


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*

I would like to know the actual weight of 2 Certina DS 2 watches. I cannot try them on since no local ADs here.


*C024.447.11.051.02 *
Stainless Steel case & bracelet with Green Chronograph hand & markings


And


*C024.447.44.051.00*
Titanium case & bracelet with RED Chronograph hand & markings




I know Ti will be lighter vs. SS. 


Maybe the SS = ~250g & the Ti = ~125g? I have no idea.


I cannot find weight of watches on the Certina web site.
I sent Certina an online email message but have not received a rely & doubt I ever will.


Thanks!


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> I would like to know the actual weight of 2 Certina DS 2 watches. I cannot try them on since no local ADs here.
> 
> 
> *C024.447.11.051.02 *
> Stainless Steel case & bracelet with Green Chronograph hand & markings
> 
> 
> And
> 
> 
> *C024.447.44.051.00*
> Titanium case & bracelet with RED Chronograph hand & markings
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know Ti will be lighter vs. SS.
> 
> 
> Maybe the SS = ~250g & the Ti = ~125g? I have no idea.
> 
> 
> I cannot find weight of watches on the Certina web site.
> I sent Certina an online email message but have not received a rely & doubt I ever will.
> 
> 
> Thanks!


You will find the answer for the steel version in Post #1 of this thread. Sorry I have no info on the Ti version. I'd guess about 3/4 of the steel.


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



chris01 said:


> You will find the answer for the steel version in Post #1 of this thread. Sorry I have no info on the Ti version. I'd guess about 3/4 of the steel.


Thanks! I had read that 1st post when I 1st was learning about Certina watches & didn't notice you included the weight. I'm guessing you did not get that weight from Certina, rather you weighed it yourself.


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks! I had read that 1st post when I 1st was learning about Certina watches & didn't notice you included the weight. I'm guessing you did not get that weight from Certina, rather you weighed it yourself.


Yes, and that's with the full bracelet.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*

I have the DS-2 titanium, unfortunately I don't have a scale to weigh it.

The thing is very light though, I bought a strap+deployant for it (Certina OE one) when I bought the watch. It's actually a bit heavier feeling with the strap.

I'm guessing it weights about 2/3 of the stainless bracelet DS-2.


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*

Thanks,


I find it difficult to buy a watch w/o being able to try it on & see how it actually feels. This will be my 1st Chronograph. My 1st HAQ watch too.
So, I weighed my other watches on my old postage scale, LOL.
I have an Omega Seamaster ~4.2 oz. Currently my heaviest watch. Weight does not bother me at all. My Seikos (battery or solar or kinetic, all Ti) weigh ~2.25-2.75 oz.


So, I've been trying to decide between SS & Ti:
C024.447.44.051.00
C024.447.11.051.02


I like the red Chrono hands on the Ti but not thrilled with the red markings for the chrono 1/100 scale. Also seems like the sub dials are grey instead of black & there is a grey colored band where the 60 second markings are.


Compared to the SS with Green chrono hands which look nice but, may be less visible than red. (Really wish I could see in person on my wrist) I like the green markings for the chrono 1/100 scale vey much. More subtle than red. I love that the sub dials all appears black same as the main watch dial.


So, if I could have the colors of the SS with Ti case & bracelet, I'd probably buy that. I will compromise & probably buy the SS one. Mainly bc of the grey sub dials & grey outer ring on the Ti one that I do not like as much as black.


I'm sure I'll get used to the 5.3 Oz weight of my SS Certina quickly. 
Maybe it will be more resistant to scratches than a Ti one. 


I must bump into countertops & doors since over the years I see all my watches have small, fine scratches.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*

Don't forget you can find the exact same movement in three watches from Christopher Ward, in case those designs are more to your liking:

C7 Rapide Chronometer Limited Edition
C70 Grand Prix Series Limited Edition 
C70 3527 GT Limited Edition


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> 
> I find it difficult to buy a watch w/o being able to try it on & see how it actually feels. This will be my 1st Chronograph. My 1st HAQ watch too.
> So, I weighed my other watches on my old postage scale, LOL.
> I have an Omega Seamaster ~4.2 oz. Currently my heaviest watch. Weight does not bother me at all. My Seikos (battery or solar or kinetic, all Ti) weigh ~2.25-2.75 oz.
> 
> 
> So, I've been trying to decide between SS & Ti:
> C024.447.44.051.00
> C024.447.11.051.02
> 
> 
> I like the red Chrono hands on the Ti but not thrilled with the red markings for the chrono 1/100 scale. Also seems like the sub dials are grey instead of black & there is a grey colored band where the 60 second markings are.
> 
> 
> Compared to the SS with Green chrono hands which look nice but, may be less visible than red. (Really wish I could see in person on my wrist) I like the green markings for the chrono 1/100 scale vey much. More subtle than red. I love that the sub dials all appears black same as the main watch dial.
> 
> 
> So, if I could have the colors of the SS with Ti case & bracelet, I'd probably buy that. I will compromise & probably buy the SS one. Mainly bc of the grey sub dials & grey outer ring on the Ti one that I do not like as much as black.
> 
> 
> I'm sure I'll get used to the 5.3 Oz weight of my SS Certina quickly.
> Maybe it will be more resistant to scratches than a Ti one.
> 
> 
> I must bump into countertops & doors since over the years I see all my watches have small, fine scratches.


I'll give you some very subjective comments.

I find my (steel) DS-2 quite easy to wear, although it's almost the heaviest and largest watch I've owned.

My heaviest watch by a few grams was a Miros Chrono Diver HAQ. This was only very slightly bigger than the DS-2 but was a nightmare because of the rotating bezel, which made it impossible to avoid door frames and other annoying household features. It just had to go. The tapered bezel of the DS-2 is a non-issue by comparison. I would never have another watch with a functional bezel.

My Ti Astron chrono was a fair bit bigger than the Certina and much lighter - 114g v 150g. Unfortunately this had only full-link bracelet adjustment, plus a very small micro, and I could never get any fit that wasn't too loose or too tight. The DS-2 has short links and I have never found it difficult to get a good fit. Of course this item is extremely dependent on wrist shape and size.

Colour is completely a matter of taste, or lack of it. I'm very pleased with my 081 anthracite version as it's monochrome and doesn't shout at me.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks,
> 
> 
> I find it difficult to buy a watch w/o being able to try it on & see how it actually feels. This will be my 1st Chronograph. My 1st HAQ watch too.
> So, I weighed my other watches on my old postage scale, LOL.
> I have an Omega Seamaster ~4.2 oz. Currently my heaviest watch. Weight does not bother me at all. My Seikos (battery or solar or kinetic, all Ti) weigh ~2.25-2.75 oz.
> 
> 
> So, I've been trying to decide between SS & Ti:
> C024.447.44.051.00
> C024.447.11.051.02
> 
> 
> I like the red Chrono hands on the Ti but not thrilled with the red markings for the chrono 1/100 scale. Also seems like the sub dials are grey instead of black & there is a grey colored band where the 60 second markings are.
> 
> 
> Compared to the SS with Green chrono hands which look nice but, may be less visible than red. (Really wish I could see in person on my wrist) I like the green markings for the chrono 1/100 scale vey much. More subtle than red. I love that the sub dials all appears black same as the main watch dial.
> 
> 
> So, if I could have the colors of the SS with Ti case & bracelet, I'd probably buy that. I will compromise & probably buy the SS one. Mainly bc of the grey sub dials & grey outer ring on the Ti one that I do not like as much as black.
> 
> 
> I'm sure I'll get used to the 5.3 Oz weight of my SS Certina quickly.
> Maybe it will be more resistant to scratches than a Ti one.
> 
> 
> I must bump into countertops & doors since over the years I see all my watches have small, fine scratches.


In the Ti version (which I own), the subdials are lighter than the rest of the dial, they actually reflect a bit more of the light too. The band is similar. They're not dramatically lighter than the rest of the dial, they seem lighter in some light due to the selectivity. They're ridged and shinier than the matte finish of the rest of the dial.

Personally, I love the contrast between the dark and lighter areas. What I do not like in my watch is the crystal, Certina claims it has anti-reflective coating but it's the lousiest AR I've seen. The slightly domed shape, at least to my eye, makes it worse since it'll catch reflections off-axis and reflections can be pretty bad at times. Granted the crystal in my Aqua Terra better be of higher quality but it's similarly domed and I don't have the reflection issues with it like the DS-2. The flat crystal in my black-faced Timex isn't as bad as this watch (it partly is exacerbated I think by the gray sub-dials).

Still love the watch and the red makes it pop. What's interesting is when the light hits the red 1/100th scale it looks almost like it's back-lit, it REALLY looks dramatic.

I have my DS-2 Ti on the Certina OE red/black strap+deployant right now (got them when I bought the watch) and only had the Ti bracelet on for a few months. I can't say it's scratched up any worse than SS but I only wore it with long sleeves. I can say I love the lightness of the Ti and the bracelet was very comfortable, it has two smaller links and it was easy to size correctly for my wrist. Plus, the clasp is a butterfly design, looks nice and clean on the wrist too. I also like the grayer look of the Ti compared to SS, that was another reason to get this particular model.

Even with my gripes I'd buy it again, you could say it has a Speedmaster 'vibe' to it with enough difference to make it unique (my DS-2 sure is a LOT lighter than my Speedmaster). Outside of the crystal the only other thing I'd change is some kind of window on the date display.

If you want the black/red you could always get the red SS/leather strap version of the watch. It does look great with the red/black strap, the deployant used is of the Omega deployant style if you're curious (ie, the strap end tucks under the deployant, doesn't sit on top like most deployants).


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Tom-HK said:


> Don't forget you can find the exact same movement in three watches from Christopher Ward, in case those designs are more to your liking:
> 
> C7 Rapide Chronometer Limited Edition
> C70 Grand Prix Series Limited Edition
> C70 3527 GT Limited Edition


Thanks, Tom-HK
I had never heard of CW. I checked out their web site.
 https://www.christopherward.com
The C7 Rapide Chronometer Limited Edition ($870) wi SS bracelet does indeed have the same swiss HAQ movement as the Certina DS 2: (251.264 movement.) I like the Certina look better though & I do not know the weight of the CW. I can also get the Certina for $225 LESS, via GM seller that begins with the letter "J."


Personal taste, I did not like at all:
C70 Grand Prix Series Limited Edition
C70 3527 GT Limited Edition 


I also found & I do like CW, C7 Rapide Chronograph Mk II C7-42-Q-SKKS-MK2-B ($480)
https://www.christopherward.com/c7-rapide-chronograph-mkii-2


Two "Black Dial" faces available, I like one wi slashes vs. #s 
Movement is NOT same 251.264. Instead it is Ronda 3540.D quartz movement.
Probably Not HAQ. Probably why it is priced so much less. Don't know the weight on this one either.


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks, Tom-HK
> I had never heard of CW. I checked out their web site.
> https://www.christopherward.com
> The C7 Rapide Chronometer Limited Edition ($870) wi SS bracelet does indeed have the same swiss HAQ movement as the Certina DS 2: (251.264 movement.) I like the Certina look better though & I do not know the weight of the CW. I can also get the Certina for $225 LESS, via GM seller that begins with the letter "J."
> 
> Personal taste, I did not like at all:
> C70 Grand Prix Series Limited Edition
> C70 3527 GT Limited Edition
> 
> I also found & I do like CW, C7 Rapide Chronograph Mk II C7-42-Q-SKKS-MK2-B ($480)
> https://www.christopherward.com/c7-rapide-chronograph-mkii-2
> 
> Two "Black Dial" faces available, I like one wi slashes vs. #s
> Movement is NOT same 251.264. Instead it is Ronda 3540.D quartz movement.
> Probably Not HAQ. Probably why it is priced so much less. Don't know the weight on this one either.


The 251.264 movement in the Rapide LE is not exactly the same version as used by Certina. Instead of the latter's 1/100 second chronograph, the CW has a 1/10 second resolution. Otherwise it should be pretty much the same. Some of CW's documentation is inconsistent, or needs updating, as you may also find reference to the older ETA 251.233.ETA 251.233ETA 251.233 ETA 251.233..

The other models are very difficult to like if you're not a motorsport enthusiast.

And yes, the Ronda quartz movements are NOT thermocompensated.


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



tmathes said:


> In the Ti version (which I own), the subdials are lighter than the rest of the dial, they actually reflect a bit more of the light too. The band is similar. They're not dramatically lighter than the rest of the dial, they seem lighter in some light due to the selectivity. They're ridged and shinier than the matte finish of the rest of the dial.
> 
> Personally, I love the contrast between the dark and lighter areas. What I do not like in my watch is the crystal, Certina claims it has anti-reflective coating but it's the lousiest AR I've seen. ...Still love the watch and the red makes it pop. ...
> 
> I have my DS-2 Ti on the Certina OE red/black strap+deployant right now...Even with my gripes I'd buy it again...If you want the black/red you could always get the red SS/leather strap version of the watch. ...


Thanks, tmathes, for the description of the lighter color sundials. I really wish I could see both in person. I still think I will go with the SS due to color preference. Re leather strap. I live in Phoenix, AZ. Later this week it will be 117 degrees! I have not worn a leather strap watch. I think I would sweat on it & it would deteriorate &/or smell. Given the choice, I will opt for SS or Ti as I have worn both for decades here with excellent results.

You now have me a bit worried about reflections in the crystal preventing me from reading my watch dials!



chris01 said:


> The 251.264 movement in the Rapide LE is not exactly the same version as used by Certina. Instead of the latter's 1/100 second chronograph, the CW has a 1/10 second resolution. Otherwise it should be pretty much the same. Some of CW's documentation is inconsistent, or needs updating, as you may also find reference to the older ETA 251.233.ETA 251.233ETA 251.233 ETA 251.233..
> 
> The other models are very difficult to like if you're not a motorsport enthusiast.
> 
> And yes, the Ronda quartz movements are NOT thermocompensated.


Thanks for the confirmation re Ronda Quartz not being HAQ.

BTW, while the 1/100 sec Certina chrono hand looks cool in videos, I will never need to time anything to the 1/100 sec! I wish Certina had an option for the large, colored chromo hand to be seconds.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks, tmathes, for the description of the lighter color sundials. I really wish I could see both in person. I still think I will go with the SS due to color preference. Re leather strap. I live in Phoenix, AZ. Later this week it will be 117 degrees! I have not worn a leather strap watch. I think I would sweat on it & it would deteriorate &/or smell. Given the choice, I will opt for SS or Ti as I have worn both for decades here with excellent results.
> 
> You now have me a bit worried about reflections in the crystal preventing me from reading my watch dials!
> 
> Thanks for the confirmation re Ronda Quartz not being HAQ.
> 
> BTW, while the 1/100 sec Certina chrono hand looks cool in videos, I will never need to time anything to the 1/100 sec! I wish Certina had an option for the large, colored chromo hand to be seconds.


I think its a combination of the lighter sub-dials reflecting and the very shiny hands too. Maybe the flatter dial models aren't as bad, other owners don't seem to have the problem. I still love the way the watch looks, I still would buy it again.

As for the strap, I must be the oddball, I prefer leather straps in the summer over the bracelet. After wrist surgery a few years ago by wrist swells in the heat more than it used to, so a bracelet is either too loose or too tight when I go from indoors to outdoors. Since I can adjust a leather strap easily the problem solved for me.


----------



## chris01

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*



Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks for the confirmation re Ronda Quartz not being HAQ.
> 
> BTW, while the 1/100 sec Certina chrono hand looks cool in videos, I will never need to time anything to the 1/100 sec! I wish Certina had an option for the large, colored chromo hand to be seconds.


As I pointed out in my original review, this is not very useful. You have to read four separate hands for one time readout. The 1/100 hand could be removed with no significant loss of function. I'd prefer a single, central chrono seconds hand, and maybe have the other central hand showing running seconds and delete the 6 o'clock subdial.


----------



## Omegaman2311

*Re: Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches--WEIGHT*

I just placed my order for Certina DS 2 C024.447.11.051.02 
Stainless Steel case & bracelet with Green Chronograph hand & markings.


Will not ship for 2-3 weeks.

Update: Now email from GM dealer says 3-5 weeks!
I had thought GM dealers buy stock from ADs. Seems this GM dealer is sourcing the watch, after I ordered it. Why else would it take so long? I'm in USA, GM dealer is in USA. A.D. Swatch owned store in USA has it in stock (@ full MSRP), I had checked b4 deciding to go with GM. GM cannot put in an order from the manufacturer, Certina. So where might this GM dealer be obtaining my Certina watch?


----------



## Omegaman2311

Today, 2 weeks since ordered, I canceled! This GM dealer (begins with "J") seems very flaky to me. I have contacted them 2 times. 


I think they do not know when or even whether they can get this watch yet, they just string the customer along hoping they can eventually source the watch. 


I will attempt to buy elsewhere.


----------



## chris01

Omegaman2311 said:


> Today, 2 weeks since ordered, I canceled! This GM dealer (begins with "J") seems very flaky to me. I have contacted them 2 times.
> 
> I think they do not know when or even whether they can get this watch yet, they just string the customer along hoping they can eventually source the watch.
> 
> I will attempt to buy elsewhere.


Have you investigated the well-known Spanish AD? He ships to the US and so far there has been nothing but complimentary reports here from US and Euro buyers. PM me if you need more info.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Have you investigated the well-known Spanish AD? He ships to the US and so far there has been nothing but complimentary reports here from US and Euro buyers. PM me if you need more info.


Chris is correct, I ordered from him (I'm in the US), he was fantastic to deal with. The mark of a good dealer is how he/she handles problems with a purchase In my case, it was a defective watch (hands were badly aligned). He arranged the return, instructed me on how to make sure it all went through customs to/from Spain without being double billed and it cost me only a trip to the UPS Store to return it. I can't say enough good things about him.

I checked his web site, I think the prices are competitive with gray market but still a bit more. BUT, you get the Swatch international warranty in effect and you'll be protected by a top-flight AD, no worries if/when your watch will arrive and in what conditions. You'll get your watch within a week, unless the store is out of stock (then it's up to Swatch and how fast they ship to him). You also have a big selection of the Certina's on his web site.

PM me if you want details on how to contact him.


----------



## Omegaman2311

chris01 said:


> Have you investigated the well-known Spanish AD?...





tmathes said:


> Chris is correct, I ordered from him (I'm in the US), he was fantastic to deal with. ....


Yes! I ordered from him ~ 10 hours ago. (Ironically same store initials as the bad GM NY dealer that wasted 2 weeks for me.) This Spain AD was my 2nd choice. Although I had Not realized, at the time, that he was an AD. My only experience ordering online from other countries was Amazon UK. Which was very slow. I didn't want to bother with currency exchange & fees from my Credit card company & customs & I don't even know how & when I pay extra charges. The NY, USA GM had such positive comments here @ WUS. Seemed easier. LOL. Hindsight.

So, as I mentioned I ordered Th PM (my time) from Spain. Not sure it actually *is* ordered & an hour ago I sent online message to them. My CC was charged & I got 2 confirmation #s but, later got email from AD saying error processing payment & cannot ship till paid. The web site DID hang/crash when I attempted to print my confirmation so, that is most likely the source of the snafu. Didn't want to reorder & end up with TWO watches or paying twice! <GRIN>

Update: Got reply from Juan, my payment DID go through. Apparently their web site had problems with foreign currency. Not in stock but already ordered from Certina & s/b 5 days & then will ship to me. (I don't know how long UPS takes from Spain to USA.)


This is proper customer service.


----------



## chris01

Omegaman2311 said:


> Yes! I ordered from him ~ 10 hours ago. (Ironically same store initials as the bad GM NY dealer that wasted 2 weeks for me.) This Spain AD was my 2nd choice. Although I had Not realized, at the time, that he was an AD. My only experience ordering online from other countries was Amazon UK. Which was very slow. I didn't want to bother with currency exchange & fees from my Credit card company & customs & I don't even know how & when I pay extra charges. The NY, USA GM had such positive comments here @ WUS. Seemed easier. LOL. Hindsight.
> 
> So, as I mentioned I ordered Th PM (my time) from Spain. Not sure it actually *is* ordered & an hour ago I sent online message to them. My CC was charged & I got 2 confirmation #s but, later got email from AD saying error processing payment & cannot ship till paid. The web site DID hang/crash when I attempted to print my confirmation so, that is most likely the source of the snafu. Didn't want to reorder & end up with TWO watches or paying twice! <GRIN>
> 
> Update: Got reply from Juan, my payment DID go through. Apparently their web site had problems with foreign currency. Not in stock but already ordered from Certina & s/b 5 days & then will ship to me. (I don't know how long UPS takes from Spain to USA.)
> 
> This is proper customer service.


Welcome to the (growing) club! I do hope you will be very pleased with it. After 2.5 years mine is still on its first battery (that's tempting fate) and with mostly daily wear is +5 SPY.


----------



## Omegaman2311

chris01 said:


> Welcome to the (growing) club! I do hope you will be very pleased with it. After 2.5 years mine is still on its first battery (that's tempting fate) and with mostly daily wear is +5 SPY.


When it is time to replace the battery, do you plan on DIY?
Did your manual state the type of battery?








The above video is probably what a typical jeweler would do for $20-30 here in the USA. Probably they would not scratch the back of the case. At least not badly. But as in the video, they would not do anything with the seal/gasket to maintain water resistance. 


A Swatch authorized repair shop may be different. 


For a simple battery replacement & Gasket lube, I wonder if it would be best to buy a watch case pry tool & this:
O-Ring Watch Gasket Lubricant Sealer
 And DIY?


Example of pry tool for case back:
https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Opener-Tool-Repair-Tools/dp/B00K5KN2CS


----------



## tmathes

Omegaman2311 said:


> When it is time to replace the battery, do you plan on DIY?
> Did your manual state the type of battery?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above video is probably what a typical jeweler would do for $20-30 here in the USA. Probably they would not scratch the back of the case. At least not badly. But as in the video, they would not do anything with the seal/gasket to maintain water resistance.
> 
> 
> A Swatch authorized repair shop may be different.
> 
> 
> For a simple battery replacement & Gasket lube, I wonder if it would be best to buy a watch case pry tool & this:
> O-Ring Watch Gasket Lubricant Sealer
> And DIY?
> 
> 
> Example of pry tool for case back:
> https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Opener-Tool-Repair-Tools/dp/B00K5KN2CS


Studying the case, it looks like this style would work better:

https://www.amazon.com/EuroTool-Case-Opener-Knife-KNF-167-00/dp/B002RMNB3W

I'm not recommending that particular tool, just the style. One other forum member claimed to have opened a DS-2 with that style, from the width of the notch that seemed like a good design for this style case. Seems to spread the surface area you're applying torque to open the case so it should make it easier.

As for the lube, I've use silicone dielectric grease used on spark plugs, works great and it's good at protecting rubber gaskets. It's recommended by auto makers for door/trunk/hood/sunroof weatherstrips, which get a lot more abuse than a watch seal. Just use it sparingly, you don't want to get it on the watch movement.

Chris has opened a DS-2, he may have better recommendations on what tool to use.


----------



## Tom-HK

I opened my DS-2 with one of these:








But some people don't like the somewhat blunt blades and prefer something a little sharper, like this:









Both images shamelessly lifted from the web.

I have no issues with my blunter tool, as long as there's a notch in the case back. If there isn't then I either go very slowly and carefully or I'll try a case knife, at least to get a gap going. Some watches demand a very thin blade indeed, but I didn't find this to be the case with the DS-2.


----------



## wbird

Don't know where you live Tmathes but you might want to look at what a partial service cost from Swatch. As I read it for a battery, gaskets, pressure test, regulation, and a little polish its 60$ US, and 2 weeks.

I don't know how comfortable you are with the crown gasket, but for that kind of money I'll let Swatch take care of it for me.


----------



## chris01

Omegaman2311 said:


> When it is time to replace the battery, do you plan on DIY?
> Did your manual state the type of battery?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The above video is probably what a typical jeweler would do for $20-30 here in the USA. Probably they would not scratch the back of the case. At least not badly. But as in the video, they would not do anything with the seal/gasket to maintain water resistance.
> 
> 
> A Swatch authorized repair shop may be different.
> 
> 
> For a simple battery replacement & Gasket lube, I wonder if it would be best to buy a watch case pry tool & this:
> O-Ring Watch Gasket Lubricant Sealer
> And DIY?
> 
> 
> Example of pry tool for case back:
> https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Opener-Tool-Repair-Tools/dp/B00K5KN2CS


Here's my evidence of back opening:
Certina DS 2 PreciDrive watches - Page 48
and please note that I am not recommending that you should attempt this unless you're confident of not damaging your watch! I am an inveterate dismantler, and my 'on the job training' doesn't always end well.  I used the traditional style of case knife and it opened quite easily. Replacing the back was just finger pressure until it snapped into place.

The battery is a 394 / SR9356SW and this is mentioned in the user manual.

I will certainly replace my own battery and I'm happy to lightly grease the gasket and reassemble without a pressure test. I never get my watches wet and the crown and pushers on my DS-2 are used so rarely that I'm not worried about their seals. I'll probably send it in to SGS for a full service when battery #3 is required.

Care in replacing the battery is important, as the screw is easily lost or damaged when the securing plate springs off and flies across the room. Putting the watch inside a large polythene bag will avoid a disaster.

If you've not done this before I'd suggest that getting some experience with old watches would be a good idea.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> Don't know where you live Tmathes but you might want to look at what a partial service cost from Swatch. As I read it for a battery, gaskets, pressure test, regulation, and a little polish its 60$ US, and 2 weeks.
> 
> I don't know how comfortable you are with the crown gasket, but for that kind of money I'll let Swatch take care of it for me.


I live in the Research Triangle Park area in North Carolina (says so next to my name  ).

It would be closer to $80 once shipping to the facility is taken into account and if their service is as "good" as I read on the Omega boards I'll take my chances with changing the battery myself.

Gaskets don't need to be changed on a 3 yr. old watch that doesn't get taken swimming or in a shower, modern materials aren't that fragile. $80 it too much money for a simple battery change, I can take it to a respected jewelry store with an Omega and Rolex certified watchmaker locally and pay a fraction of that if I want a pro to do it. And not wait weeks either.

I change the batteries on all of the watches in my household without problem so I have a vague idea of what I'm doing.


----------



## wbird

Makes sense Tmathes. By the way can't see the location of anybody on my phone in mobile mode, hence the question. Didn't know if you were in the tristate area.

Don't know about those omega boards but since it's harder to find a good swatch watch maker in NJ or NYC for that matter, me and my friends, we have been using the service center for our stuff which is mostly mechanical Hamiltons, Longines, and a couple of Omega's. It gets high ratings on Yelp not a bunch of issues on BBB and we've had no issues other than they can be slow sometimes on a full service. They come back looking really good and running like the day we bought them sometimes better. Maybe all service centers aren't equal.

But for me I have the dive watch and plan to use it to around 30 meters, so I can't beat a set of gaskets, battery, pressure test, bracelet and case polish, and regulated for that price. Since I can drop it off and they will ship it back to me for free with a two year warranty better yet. My AD and the kiosk at the mall is over 40$ for just a battery and pressure test.

Damn I'm starting to sound like a swatch employee. I'm not. Like I said I understand if the watch is a desk diver no need for the extra cost and time, change the battery and move on. I was just surprised that swatch offered reasonable pricing for their quartz products. Even more surprised that I plan on using them for Quartz.


----------



## gcs190

My DS2 L.E. After 11 months, accumulating a variation of +2 seconds.

I love it.


----------



## Omegaman2311

chris01 said:


> ...I used the traditional style of case knife and it opened quite easily. Replacing the back was just finger pressure until it snapped into place. The battery is a 394 / SR9356SW and this is mentioned in the user manual.
> 
> ...Care in replacing the battery is important, as the screw is easily lost or damaged when the securing plate springs off and flies across the room. Putting the watch inside a large polythene bag will avoid a disaster....


Thanks! I like the idea of the large plastic bag to catch any tiny screws that go flying, brilliant!


----------



## chris01

Omegaman2311 said:


> Thanks! I like the idea of the large plastic bag to catch any tiny screws that go flying, brilliant!


That was a nearly painful lesson from when I removed a spring bar from my Sinn 856. It shot out and landed 20 feet away, just missing my wife's face.


----------



## ronalddheld

I can say a spring bar got away from me and hid for days.


----------



## jisham

Tom-HK said:


> But some people don't like the somewhat blunt blades and prefer something a little sharper, like this:
> 
> View attachment 8638466


I have done damage to watches (and nearly to my fingers as well) with a basic case knife. I highly recommend the style shown in the picture above. You can adjust the thumb-wheel to put just enough pressure on the caseback with the knife, then the knife is free to pivot and open the caseback, while the vertical guides prevent the knife from flying into the watch, possibly nicking a coil, or worse - your hands. They are easy to use once you try it.

I bought one on EBay as "Watch Case Opener For Snap On Backs Black In Color" for around $36 USD just a few months ago. You may be able to find one cheaper if you are comfortable with chinese sources. There's not much to it, I'd imagine even the cheap ones work fine.

But if you bought your DS-2 through an AD with a warranty, there may be other reasons to go with dealer service and not void your warranty.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> Makes sense Tmathes. By the way can't see the location of anybody on my phone in mobile mode, hence the question. Didn't know if you were in the tristate area.
> 
> Don't know about those omega boards but since it's harder to find a good swatch watch maker in NJ or NYC for that matter, me and my friends, we have been using the service center for our stuff which is mostly mechanical Hamiltons, Longines, and a couple of Omega's. It gets high ratings on Yelp not a bunch of issues on BBB and we've had no issues other than they can be slow sometimes on a full service. They come back looking really good and running like the day we bought them sometimes better. Maybe all service centers aren't equal.
> 
> But for me I have the dive watch and plan to use it to around 30 meters, so I can't beat a set of gaskets, battery, pressure test, bracelet and case polish, and regulated for that price. Since I can drop it off and they will ship it back to me for free with a two year warranty better yet. My AD and the kiosk at the mall is over 40$ for just a battery and pressure test.
> 
> Damn I'm starting to sound like a swatch employee. I'm not. Like I said I understand if the watch is a desk diver no need for the extra cost and time, change the battery and move on. I was just surprised that swatch offered reasonable pricing for their quartz products. Even more surprised that I plan on using them for Quartz.


The f20 board is full of some pretty lousy stories of Omegas (seems to be Planet Oceans in particular) with botched repairs. My "favorite" was of one guy with a fingerprint smudge *underneath* the crystal. Sometimes it's scraped dials too, but rarely is it of a messed up case. Often it's having to send it back multiple times to get the repair done right.

When I bought my and my wife's Aqua Terra, the AD told me to avoid sending any warranty work to the Omega NJ center. He said to instead send the watch to him and he'll handle it with the Omega repair center in California nearer to him. He wasn't a fan of the NJ center, had too many problems with them.

That's why I was leery of the NJ service center, I figured the Omega repair facility was just part of the bigger Swatch repair center. I hear some pretty harsh things about the Seiko service center in NJ too; maybe staffers move between the two too freely.


----------



## Omegaman2311

I received my Certina C024.447.11.051.02 today!
This AD was a pleasure to buy from! He said it will take 5 days to get the watch, it took exactly 5 days. He shipped & I got UPS tracking # as promised. I thought here is where the waiting & slow shipping begins. No! It was very fast from Spain to USA! 5 days. As expected, Filled out & stamped warranty card.


I love the Watch. Had it sized at a local jeweler this evening. I was somewhat concerned it would feel too heavy after all my light weight watched but not at all. So, I'm glad I got SS instead of Titanium. I've had 3 Ti watches, which were just fine. I left all the tags & plastic on it as I tested the functions & set time/date for a few hours b4 finally breaking down & trying it on. I know some of you let new watches sit unworn & run for days b4 wearing. 


Cost was actually $11 LESS vs. that GM USA dealer! 


One strange thing. When I 1st tested the Chronograph function, during 1st minute when the green, 1/100 second hand races around, the second, white Chrono hand "wobbles." Each tick was back & forth! But, after 1st min when the 1/100 hand stopped moving, the chrono second hand no longer wobbled.


I later used the Chrono function many times & it never repeated this wobbling during the 1st minute.


I wonder if it was a 1st use normal thing?


----------



## tmathes

Omegaman2311 said:


> I received my Certina C024.447.11.051.02 today!
> This AD was a pleasure to buy from! He said it will take 5 days to get the watch, it took exactly 5 days. He shipped & I got UPS tracking # as promised. I thought here is where the waiting & slow shipping begins. No! It was very fast from Spain to USA! 5 days. As expected, Filled out & stamped warranty card.
> 
> 
> I love the Watch. Had it sized at a local jeweler this evening. I was somewhat concerned it would feel too heavy after all my light weight watched but not at all. So, I'm glad I got SS instead of Titanium. I've had 3 Ti watches, which were just fine. I left all the tags & plastic on it as I tested the functions & set time/date for a few hours b4 finally breaking down & trying it on. I know some of you let new watches sit unworn & run for days b4 wearing.
> 
> 
> Cost was actually $11 LESS vs. that GM USA dealer!
> 
> 
> One strange thing. When I 1st tested the Chronograph function, during 1st minute when the green, 1/100 second hand races around, the second, white Chrono hand "wobbles." Each tick was back & forth! But, after 1st min when the 1/100 hand stopped moving, the chrono second hand no longer wobbled.
> 
> 
> I later used the Chrono function many times & it never repeated this wobbling during the 1st minute.
> 
> 
> I wonder if it was a 1st use normal thing?


Congrats on your new DS-2.

I saw the wobble you mention once on my watch, never saw it again. I just tried it right now and didn't see it. If it doesn't do it again don't worry about it. I've seen this kind of movement in some other quartz watches I have, kind of weird to see it but they never gave me an issue. I only observed it in my watches that have faster-than-one-second sweep second hands. One example is my Timex IQ compass-chrono, it has a 4th hand that when running makes the regular sweep second hand do the front-back two-step.


----------



## gcs190

I present my DS-2:










Yesterday was a year of adjustment to GPS, has accumulated a variation of +1.7 seconds.

Awesome!


----------



## AvantGardeTime

Link to Spanish Certina AD please?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## watchcrank_tx

AvantGardeTime said:


> Link to Spanish Certina AD please?


Jambor, a.k.a. One Watch for You.


----------



## wilcoxen.4

How's the Bracelet on the DS 2 chrono? It looks good. Fit and finish look nice in pictures, but I am unable to view one in person. How are the links held together? Pins or screws? Thanks guys. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

wilcoxen.4 said:


> How's the Bracelet on the DS 2 chrono? It looks good. Fit and finish look nice in pictures, but I am unable to view one in person. How are the links held together? Pins or screws? Thanks guys.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fit with my Ti Ds-2 chrono is good, no issues with it at all. I get better fit with that bracelet than my Omega Aqua Terry 8500. What I don't care for is the center-polished links but that's the style in many watches these days.

And the links are held together with pins. I found it very easy to adjust the bracelet with the proper tools.


----------



## wilcoxen.4

tmathes said:


> Fit with my Ti Ds-2 chrono is good, no issues with it at all. I get better fit with that bracelet than my Omega Aqua Terry 8500. What I don't care for is the center-polished links but that's the style in many watches these days.
> 
> And the links are held together with pins. I found it very easy to adjust the bracelet with the proper tools.


Thanks for the reply! I agree, I don't love the polished bits, but it's a nice variance from what I have. I think I may be in the minority when I say this, but I like my watches to be weighty. I enjoy knowing they're there. My biggest gripe with my Seiko SARG bracelet (which I flipped) was how unsubstantial and light it felt. I've been deciding between this and auto DS-1. I think I'm liking the DS-2 more and more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kapahoo

They have added a couple of new variants of the Ds-8. I like the gold and black one.

Anyway, my (steel and black) seems to keep a steady +1 sec a month pace. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

In celebration of the third birthday of my DS-2 chronograph, I feel it's time for an update that goes beyond the usual timing results. This is a report on my experiences, and to avoid repetition I'd refer readers to my original post that started this thread: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-2-precidrive-watches-940252.html#post6979754

After three years it's still on its original battery. ETA's data for the 251.264 movement predicts battery life of around 4½ years with minimal chronograph usage.

The watch has performed flawlessly with one exception: on one occasion, and with no obvious reason, it lost 52 seconds in 24 hours. In the 14 months since then there have been no further issues and it has maintained an average rate of +5.4 SPY, with mostly daily wear during that time. It is obviously calibrated for regular wear and the rate increases significantly if I don't wear it for a few days.

For its size and weight it has been extremely easy to wear and I have not needed to adjust the bracelet since its initial sizing (this is obviously a highly subjective issue). My initial concern about the bracelet's large polished centre links was justified, and I have not regretted giving it an all-over brushed finish.

I am still unconvinced of the value of the 1/100 second hand, as it's very tedious to read four separate hands for timing. I have used the chronograph very little, preferring a digital stopwatch for anything serious, and would be quite happy with losing the 1/100. There is another version of the ETA 251.264 that has a 1/10 second sub-dial, and I think this would be a more sensible arrangement. This one is used in some Certina and Christopher Ward models. One other movement of interest is in the recently announced Certina DS-2 Chronograph Flyback, the ETA 251.294. This is very similar to the 251.264, but with a split-second, flyback chrono. It exists in several versions but Certina use the version with two one-second chrono hands and no finer resolution. Probably even easier to use than the two 251.264s.

Another issue with the 1/100 feature is the dial configuration, where the readability of the minute/second markers is compromised by the 1/100 outer ring and the less than perfect sizing of the hands. General readability is not bad, but the lume is pretty weak.

It appears that this (together with the 251.294) is currently the only commercialised PreciDrive movement with an independently adjustable hour hand, and of course ETA seem to have abandoned the perpetual calendar, leaving Citizen as the only champion of both these complications in analogue TC watches. Adjusting the calendar via the hour hand for short months is not a big chore, once you are accustomed to taking great care not to pull the crown beyond the first click!

After some experiments, and some confirmation from ETA via another forum member, it's clear that this movement is not capable of regulation outside of the Swatch Group service centres. I believe that the normal ETA TC + and - markings adjacent to contact points on my watch have been omitted on later samples. While I would like to slow my watch by 4 SPY, I wouldn't like to attempt to convince SG to do this.

So, would I buy this watch again? Definitely yes, although I'd probably go for a titanium version, which wasn't available three years go. However, there has been some concern over quality control in more recent watches.

I will now wait until the end of the year for a detailed timing report, when I will have a grand resetting of my watches to celebrate the leap second.


----------



## tmathes

Nice write-up Chris. Not wearing the watch daily does change timing, my 2 PreciDrives are worn maybe once a week at most. I'm on track with the DS-8 having 15 seconds/yr, the DS-2 is closer to 20 sec/yr.

I was intrigued by the flyback but not much information on the intertoobz. Certina has it listed on their web site and it's a bit larger than the DS-2 chrono, for my wrist I'd prefer to stick with the regular chrono.

Out of curiosity why the "there has been some concern over quality control in more recent watches" comment? Was it perhaps the experience with my DS-2? 

I can say the one thing I dislike about the watch (except for IAHH) is the excessive reflectivity of the dial+crystal combination (I have the Ti model, it appears to have a unique dial finish compared to other models). But, I still prefer the titanium over the stainless, I love the light weight.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Nice write-up Chris. Not wearing the watch daily does change timing, my 2 PreciDrives are worn maybe once a week at most. I'm on track with the DS-8 having 15 seconds/yr, the DS-2 is closer to 20 sec/yr.
> 
> I was intrigued by the flyback but not much information on the intertoobz. Certina has it listed on their web site and it's a bit larger than the DS-2 chrono, for my wrist I'd prefer to stick with the regular chrono.
> 
> Out of curiosity why the "there has been some concern over quality control in more recent watches" comment? Was it perhaps the experience with my DS-2?
> 
> I can say the one thing I dislike about the watch (except for IAHH) is the excessive reflectivity of the dial+crystal combination (I have the Ti model, it appears to have a unique dial finish compared to other models). But, I still prefer the titanium over the stainless, I love the light weight.


The PreciDrive does seem to be more temperature sensitive than my old VHP Perpetual Calendars. Being unable to regulate it is a mild annoyance.

There's a fair bit about the flyback in the ETA Technical Info website, including user instructions. The Certina version is labelled KP.

I've seen several mentions of issues with the DS-2, none of which were apparent in my own watch. Maybe standards have slipped a bit.

I'm quite happy with the reflectivity on my anthracite dial, although the 1/100 doesn't enhance readability. I'd certainly like a Ti version, as I always prefer it to steel.

At a bit more than half the cash price I paid for my Longines Ti VHP (3-hand + date) in 1986, never mind inflation, I still think this watch is outstanding value.


----------



## tmathes

_"I've seen several mentions of issues with the DS-2, none of which were apparent in my own watch. Maybe standards have slipped a bit."_

Naa, they heard you coming and the clerk said "He's here, only show the good stuff!!" :-d


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> In celebration of the third birthday of my DS-2 chronograph ....


Great idea to end(?) with a kind of summary. 
It saves one to have to dig through miles of long-since-refuted stuff.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Great idea to end(?) with a kind of summary.


"end" ? You ain't heard the last of this one!

After three years of the PreciDrive innovation, it looks pretty well established and likely to keep feeding whatever demand there may be for a range of TC movements that are available to (non-Swatch) third parties. All we need now is a wider commitment to independent hour hands and some sign of a perpetual calendar. Since the DS-2 chrono I haven't seen a single PD watch that I'd want to own.


----------



## woodville63

I'd like to buy myself a DS2 after the heart-ache of my E510 debacle, https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/strap-e510-ebj74-2101-a-3756690.html. Should I buy one if I'm anal about the second hand hitting the markers? Onewatchforyou seems to be the favoured supplier. I notice I have just missed some coupons; do they have frequent/infrequent offers?


----------



## chris01

woodville63 said:


> I'd like to buy myself a DS2 after the heart-ache of my E510 debacle, https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/strap-e510-ebj74-2101-a-3756690.html. Should I buy one if I'm anal about the second hand hitting the markers? Onewatchforyou seems to be the favoured supplier. I notice I have just missed some coupons; do they have frequent/infrequent offers?


Obviously I have had no issues with my own watch regarding the hand precision, but I can't believe that the very small running seconds hand with only 5-second markers is going to be much of a general problem. The chrono hands seem adequately close, especially as the fine resolution of seconds is provided by the 1/100 hand.

When I bought mine in 2013, the Spanish AD was priced way lower than the few UK ADs were asking. Since then I guess list prices have crept up and ADs are offering discounts. So you might get as good a deal from a local AD (if they exist down under). However, Juan Carlos is a very decent fellow to deal with.


----------



## Rdenney

I don't normally hang in this forum, but this thread made me realize that I needed at least one watch designed uncompromisingly around accuracy, especially if doing so wasn't too expensive. I found this from a Canadian dealer (OhClock!) on eBay at an excellent price. When it arrived, the hands needed realigning, but the procedure for that was well described in the supplied literature. It would seem that in this regard perfection is unattainable, however, and I can't find a setting keeps the high-speed hand at 12 o'clock in all situations when the chronograph is not being used. The hand seems to be able to be nudged slightly out of position with small bumps.

Functionally, it's fun. The split-timing feature works well, and the high-speed positioning of the hands is an improvement on other quartz chronograph watches I've seen. I like the 1/100th second hand--something one doesn't see on mechanical watches. The quickset hours hand is useful on multiple levels, for travel, daylight savings corrections, and for date corrections.

The strap earns no description better than price appropriate, but the deployant hits above the weight class. The strap's yellow edge suggests, well, cardboard. But 22mm is a common size. The 40mm x 51mm x 13.5 mm case is nicely done and the watch gives a decent impression.

So, I've got some record-keeping going in WatchTracker. I'll use long term measurement to make for lack of precision in each measurement.



















Rick "complement to a first-gen T-Touch" Denney


----------



## wbird

Welcome, nice watch and much better choice from a wallet standpoint than hanging around the high end threads and realizing you needed a few from the trinity. I might add that it is much easier to clock than watches we discussed before.


----------



## Sevenmack

Rdenney said:


> I don't normally hang in this forum, but this thread made me realize that I needed at least one watch designed uncompromisingly around accuracy, especially if doing so wasn't too expensive. I found this from a Canadian dealer (OhClock!) on eBay at an excellent price. When it arrived, the hands needed realigning, but the procedure for that was well described in the supplied literature. It would seem that in this regard perfection is unattainable, however, and I can't find a setting keeps the high-speed hand at 12 o'clock in all situations when the chronograph is not being used. The hand seems to be able to be nudged slightly out of position with small bumps.
> 
> Functionally, it's fun. The split-timing feature works well, and the high-speed positioning of the hands is an improvement on other quartz chronograph watches I've seen. I like the 1/100th second hand--something one doesn't see on mechanical watches. The quickset hours hand is useful on multiple levels, for travel, daylight savings corrections, and for date corrections.
> 
> The strap earns no description better than price appropriate, but the deployant hits above the weight class. The strap's yellow edge suggests, well, cardboard. But 22mm is a common size. The 40mm x 51mm x 13.5 mm case is nicely done and the watch gives a decent impression.
> 
> So, I've got some record-keeping going in WatchTracker. I'll use long term measurement to make for lack of precision in each measurement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rick "complement to a first-gen T-Touch" Denney


Lovely Precidrive, Rick. I have been thinking about picking up the moon phase version myself.


----------



## Rdenney

wbird said:


> Welcome, nice watch and much better choice from a wallet standpoint than hanging around the high end threads and realizing you needed a few from the trinity. I might add that it is much easier to clock than watches we discussed before.


Yes, it's easy to do time checks. My thumb works within a tenth of a second if I count up to the time I push the button. I'm using WatchTracker, which is synced using NTP. It's still on the same tenth it was yesterday, and 10 seconds a year only requires maintaining that performance for three or four days. Since yesterday, it's at 0.0 seconds/day, as expected.

I like it and I'm glad I bought it, but I don't think it's going to undermine my respect for more expensive watches one little bit. I never felt like the strap on an Ebel was cheap, for example, or considered replacing the strap out of hand because it looked cheap. The dial on my Zenith shows refinement not remotely visible on what looks like a molded dial on the Certina. The bezel on the Certina can't hold a candle to the ceramic bezel on a Rolex. The case is nicely finished, but lacks the crispness I'm accustomed to seeing in higher-end watches--the edges are rounded a bit from polishing. It looks good but the case on my Movado Datron (not exactly high-end) is done much better. I should take a picture showing the difference between the decent deployant on the Certina, and the much better deployant (of similar type, which is why it's I use it for comparison) on my Maurice Lacroix Masterpiece Phase de Lune. Both are good, but spending more does get more.

My only real complaint so far is that the yellow 1/100 hand slips slightly out of position if I bump the watch, though it resets to the correct position after using the chronograph.

But at the price point, it fulfills all my expectations abundantly, and I will enjoy wearing it.

Rick "keeping things in perspective" Denney


----------



## chris01

Rdenney said:


> Yes, it's easy to do time checks. My thumb works within a tenth of a second if I count up to the time I push the button. I'm using WatchTracker, which is synced using NTP. It's still on the same tenth it was yesterday, and 10 seconds a year only requires maintaining that performance for three or four days. Since yesterday, it's at 0.0 seconds/day, as expected.


The calibration of this watch appears to be based on an expectation of daily wear. Infrequent use, i.e. storage at well below 30 deg C, will probably show more gain than you might expect, possibly beyond the +10 SPY. Perfect thermocompensation is still just a dream!


----------



## wbird

Rick you do realize my comment was simply "read a thread and bought that watch." That approach is expensive on a Patek thread. It wasn't to imply that a Certina is superior to the trinity or even the higher levels in the swatch group in anything other than the price per second, and service cost.


----------



## Rdenney

wbird said:


> Rick you do realize my comment was simply "read a thread and bought that watch." That approach is expensive on a Patek thread. It wasn't to imply that a Certina is superior to the trinity or even the higher levels in the swatch group in anything other than the price per second, and service cost.


Fair enough. Yes, this one is in impulse territory, while anything in the high-end forum is definitely not. But my wife keeps buying Lotto tickets.

Rick "not holding his breath" Denney


----------



## Drudge




----------



## Miguel

Greetings Everyone,

It has been a long time since I do not post in this forum, but I want to take advantage of this thread to consult all these knowledgeable members about my Certina DS-2 Precidrive three hands. I received on Friday and since then the watch has gained 1 sec. A lot for a watch that is supposed to be +- 10 sec./year. I bought it from J******p in the US, because I had already a good experience with them (a Tissot Visodate that I really love).

My question is, should I already contact the vendor's costumer service for a repair/replacement? or should I wait still some time and continue monitoring the watch? I suppose Quartz do not need to settle like their mechanical counterparts.

Thanks for your help,

Miguel


----------



## ronalddheld

No settling in for quartz. Talk to your AD and see if you can resolve your issue.


----------



## tmathes

Agreed. that watch is defective. My two Precidrive Certinas (a DS-2 and DS-8) gain a second in 3 weeks, not in 3 days. The movement is defective, as the dealer to replace it or call the credit card company to intervene. Even my cheapo quartz watches do better than that.


----------



## Miguel

Thank you guys,

I will contact the dealer. It is a really nice watch and I want to enjoy the advantage of autonomous high accuracy.

Cheers,

Miguel


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## jisham

Miguel said:


> Greetings Everyone,
> 
> It has been a long time since I do not post in this forum, but I want to take advantage of this thread to consult all these knowledgeable members about my Certina DS-2 Precidrive three hands. I received on Friday and since then the watch has gained 1 sec. A lot for a watch that is supposed to be +- 10 sec./year. I bought it from J******p in the US, because I had already a good experience with them (a Tissot Visodate that I really love).
> 
> My question is, should I already contact the vendor's costumer service for a repair/replacement? or should I wait still some time and continue monitoring the watch? I suppose Quartz do not need to settle like their mechanical counterparts.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> Miguel


Have you been wearing the watch? Even though they are thermocompensated, they are optimized for the temperature when worn on your wrist. Mine does not keep as good of time when stored off-wrist.

How are you measuring the 1 second difference? Short-term measurements (a few days to a week) can have a lot of error.

If that 1 second is not measurement error, and the watch is being worn, then you may have a problem. If your vendor is not an AD, it could be difficult to convince them that the lack of accuracy is a problem.


----------



## dicioccio

I had a similar problem and I documented everything in the thread about my DS Action Diver (https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/certina-ds-action-diver-watch-review-2960578.html#post35498386).

Jomashop doesn't provide any official guarantee therefore or you convince them to replace the whole watch or you have to send it to repair at your own charge.


----------



## Miguel

Miguel said:


> Thank you guys,
> 
> I will contact the dealer. It is a really nice watch and I want to enjoy the advantage of autonomous high accuracy.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


My Certina DS-2 is now in his way to the Dealer. Hopefully, I will have it replaced quickly and I will retest if it keep time on specs.

I have two normal Swiss quartz: a Christopher Ward C3 Malvern chronograph (Ronda 5040.D) and a Rado Ceramica (ETA 988.333). The Rado keep perfect time if used 12 hours on the wrist and the CW is doing +15 sec/year, using it occasionally. So I am accustomed to expect good performance from Swiss movements, and that is why I am a little disappointed here. Let 's see what happens....

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Miguel

Hello again,

As mentioned, I sent back my DS-2 three-hand to the seller. In the meantime I wanted to celebrate both my birthday and a recent promotion, with the DS-2 Chrono titanium (C024.447.4.051.00), and based on the recommendations I read in this thread, I decided to go with another dealer (Juan): really competitive price and excellent customer communication! I do not expect the same issue as with the other dealer but for any future service, do you think that a local Swatch Group Service Center can honour the warranty? 

Thanks, this form has been very useful!

Miguel


----------



## tmathes

Miguel said:


> Hello again,
> 
> As mentioned, I sent back my DS-2 three-hand to the seller. In the meantime I wanted to celebrate both my birthday and a recent promotion, with the DS-2 Chrono titanium (C024.447.4.051.00), and based on the recommendations I read in this thread, I decided to go with another dealer (Juan): really competitive price and excellent customer communication! I do not expect the same issue as with the other dealer but for any future service, do you think that a local Swatch Group Service Center can honour the warranty?
> 
> Thanks, this form has been very useful!
> 
> Miguel


You cannot go wrong with Juan, he will stand behind the product. I bought the same DS-2 chrono from him last year. There was a problem out of the box but he exchanged it for me at his expense. Took a while to get the exchange done since he had to wait for Swatch to send him a replacement. Overall he's a top-flight dealer.

Since you're buying from an AD, Swatch will stand behind the product internationally under warranty. The regional Swatch warranty repair center for the eastern US is in New Jersey and Certina lists that as a warranty location for their watches.


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

Good news! I received my new DS-2 titanium (thank you Juan for a pleasant transaction!). Pictures really don't show how really beatiful it is. I was not very fond of the different shade on the the sub-dials, but looking at the watch in person, now I am really sold. It is beautiful, and because of the titanium, increadibly light. I really do not fill it at all. I have to look at my wrist to check if it still there . I started time measures yesterday and hopefully the watch won't have the same kind of troubles I had with the three-hand. If you have any particular question about the Titanium version, do not hesitate...

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Drudge

Just love the caseback of my Certina


----------



## SigmaPiJiggy

I'm about 5 seconds from buying this. Anyone have a lug to lug on this? 41mm should work for me but my wrists are 6.75ish and I LOATHE overhang.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

SigmaPiJiggy said:


> I'm about 5 seconds from buying this. Anyone have a lug to lug on this? 41mm should work for me but my wrists are 6.75ish and I LOATHE overhang.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The lug-to-lug is 50.6 mm and it's 12.5 mm thick.


----------



## Miguel

Hi,

I have a question about the bezel, and perhaps it has already been commented. does someone know of what the tachymeter scale le is made of? Is it painted and have any coating to protect it from fading out?

Thanks,

Miguel


----------



## tmathes

Miguel said:


> Hello,
> 
> Good news! I received my new DS-2 titanium (thank you Juan for a pleasant transaction!). Pictures really don't show how really beatiful it is. I was not very fond of the different shade on the the sub-dials, but looking at the watch in person, now I am really sold. It is beautiful, and because of the titanium, increadibly light. I really do not fill it at all. I have to look at my wrist to check if it still there . I started time measures yesterday and hopefully the watch won't have the same kind of troubles I had with the three-hand. If you have any particular question about the Titanium version, do not hesitate...
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Out of curiosity, how is the display regarding reflections? I find my identical DS-2 to be pretty bad in that regard, it's the worst in my collection.

That includes a few Timex and lower-end Citizens with flat mineral crystals and no AR coatings, they're a lot better than my DS-2. My DS-8 on the other hand is pretty darned good at having few if any reflections when I look at it.


----------



## tmathes

Miguel said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have a question about the bezel, and perhaps it has already been commented. does someone know of what the tachymeter scale le is made of? Is it painted and have any coating to protect it from fading out?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Miguel


I believe it's just painted, at least that's what I can tell.


----------



## Cathalibm

chris01 said:


> This is a long item but I think it marks a very significant event in the world of HAQ. We have a brand-new TC movement - the ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive - installed in a brand-new watch from a long-established Swatch Group watch manufacturer. Unlike all the other announcements of the last year or so, that have only a very limited (albeit exciting) appeal, like the Hoptroff CSAC watch, or are still apparently vapourware, like AtomicTime and Morgenwerk, this one is real and is currently being shipped to retailers at a very reasonable price.
> 
> Certina's effort in announcing and publicising their new watch, after the initial press releases, has been feeble and confusing, with retailers and their distributors having very little information and even Certina's web site has almost no useful information. There are currently six models with cosmetic variations and they are shown here:
> certina.com/collection/gent-quartz/ds-2#m=1
> It appears that they all have the TC movement but only the more expensive LE version has a COSC certificate (and a fancy box).
> 
> My recently departed, and not greatly missed, Aerospace has left an HAQ-sized gap, just in time to receive my own Certina and I hope the photos give a good idea of the whole package. If you want wrist shots, or a photo of the movement, then you'll have to buy your own.
> 
> View attachment 1278880
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278881
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278883
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278884
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278885
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278886
> 
> 
> View attachment 1278887
> 
> 
> *Chronograph Indications*
> View attachment 1278889
> 
> 
> *Detailed specification (from Certina and my own watch)*
> 
> 
> Model number: C024.447.11.081.00
> Movement: Thermocompensated Quartz ETA 251.264.CEN PreciDrive, +/- 10 seconds/year
> Battery life: more than 2 years (silver oxide 394/SR936SW), EOL indication
> Functions: Centre hour & minute hands, small-second, date,
> time-zone (hour hand setting is independent),
> date adjustment using hour hand, NO perpetual calendar
> Chronograph: Centre 1-second hand with 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second graduations,
> runs for first minute, subsequently displayed when chronograph is stopped
> Centre 60-second hand
> Small 30-minute and 12-hour dials
> Case: Brushed/polished 316L stainless steel
> 41mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, lug width 22 mm
> Aluminium bezel with tachymeter scale
> Dial: Anthracite with polished hands and nickelled indices
> Sub-dials black with textured finish
> Superluminova on hour & minute hands and hour markers
> See the Certina link for other variations
> Water resistance: to 10 bar (100m)
> Crystal: Sapphire crystal, domed, with inner anti-reflective coating
> Watch strap: Three-row 316L stainless steel (brushed/polished)
> with twin push-button butterfly buckle
> Removable links with split-pin fixings
> Dimensions: Case 41 mm diameter, 12.54 mm high, 22 mm lug width, 51 mm lug-to-lug
> Weight of watch with full bracelet 150 g
> Maximum wrist circumference of watch + bracelet 21.5 cm
> Bracelet 22 mm wide, tapering to 19 mm,with removable links 7 mm (x2) and 10 mm (x5)
> Warranty: Two year international warranty, service through normal SG Group centres
> *
> A brief initial review*
> 
> First impressions are that this is a very nicely designed and finished piece, quite 'normal' in appearance. The case has a good mix of brushed and polished sections, as does the bracelet, although I fear that the large polished centre links will soon show scuffs and scratches. The bracelet was quite easily adjusted to size with two sizes of link, and there are helpful arrow markings on the bracelet to avoid the disaster of attempting to insert or remove the split pins in the wrong direction. I would have liked to see micro-adjustment but this is probably impossible with a butterfly fastening.
> 
> Rather surprisingly for a 100m WR watch, the back is pressed in rather than screwed in. However, Certina make a big deal of their DS (Double Security) Concept, and there is a relief of a turtle on the back, so I have to assume that they know what they're doing! It does mean that I'm in no hurry to have a peek at the movement.
> 
> On the wrist it's quite comfortable and doesn't feel too big. It's on the upper size limit for my taste, and I prefer titanium for lightness, but it's OK. Absence of a rotating bezel is a major plus point for me.
> 
> Readability is good, helped by the slightly domed crystal, with internal AR, that avoids the problem with a flat crystal of the dial disappearing behind one large reflection. In the absence of an outer AR coating this is good enough. The dial has a very subtle sunburst effect for the main dark grey part, with black sub-dials that have a raised annular ring pattern.
> 
> Operation is perfectly straightforward, with all the functions working as expected. The independent hour hand is for me a mandatory feature for any HAQ . Perpetual calendar would have been nice but it seems unachievable with a chronograph. You have to turn the hour hand through 24 hours to change the date (works in both directions). Lume seems adequate but I haven't tried an 05:00 time check yet.
> 
> The chrono buttons work smoothly but I must make a comment about the 1/100[SUP]th[/SUP]-second feature. This was greatly hyped in the initial press releases, as if it's a must-have unique feature. To me it's a complete nonsense. Trying to read an elapsed time that requires reference to 4 separate hands (12-hour and 30-minute sub-dials, plus 60-second and 1-second main hands) is a serious test of one's patience. Omitting the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] hand would give a perfectly serviceable 1-second stopwatch. If you need sub-second resolution then any cheap digital stopwatch is infinitely better.
> 
> The user manual is perfectly adequate, being written in good English (plus 16 other languages) and contains everything you need to know on 12 tiny pages. This includes simple instructions for resetting the chrono hands, which was necessary when my watch arrived.
> 
> So, my initial conclusion is that I am very pleased with this attractive watch at an attractive price. I cannot understand why Christopher Ward doesn't do something similar with sensibly-priced COSC quartz, instead of their bizarre special editions that are commemorative of nothing very significant.
> 
> I am now starting my test of accuracy and will report as soon as the SPY value starts to settle down. +/-10 SPY is not usually a problem for ETA TC movements.
> 
> I'll be happy to attempt to answer any questions.


I picked this up 3 weeks ago. I love it. The only change was i ordered the leather strap for it and it looks fab!


----------



## Tnt9

Drudge said:


> Just love the caseback of my Certina


one of the best


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

I measured my DS-2 Chrono Titanium using the stopwatch method after 7 days based on the time.gov clock (the same I used to set the watch). I count 15 seconds and made three measurements. On those my watch did: 14.88, 14.85 and 14.91, with an average of 14.88, which means an average gain of 0.12 seconds. At least for now (and if I understood the method) the watch is doing (0.12 x 365) / 7 = 6.26 spy. Finally, I am seeing a thermocompensated movement at work! This is fun!

I still happier considering that the DS-2 three-hand I sent back to Jomashop, did around two seconds in four days!

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

Second week report on my DS-2 Chrono Titanium:

- I have been using it continuously. From now on, I will make it rotate with my other watches to see how the thermo-compensation mechanism works
- I work from home and the temperature here is never less than 20 degrees Celsius

I made an average of several measures using time.gov:









- Perhaps I should have made a measurement just after setting the watch on week 0 to account for the probable error.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Rdenney

The offsets from atomic are in the second column. My DS2, which I wear once every couple of weeks, has lost 1.138 seconds in 64.712 days, which is -6 spy.

Rick "using a long test period to average out measurement precision errors" Denney


----------



## Miguel

Wow

Impressive. Is that an Android app? I wonder if there is something similar for Windows phone or tablet? I will look for it.


----------



## Rdenney

Miguel said:


> Wow
> 
> Impressive. Is that an Android app? I wonder if there is something similar for Windows phone or tablet? I will look for it.


WatchTracker is an iPhone app. This is the CSV export of that timing run, which I pulled up in a text reader to grab the screen image.

Rick "but it is subject to data entry imprecision, relying as it does on my thumb" Denney


----------



## no-fi

Hello all. I'm a long-time HAQ lurker, first-time poster. I usually dwell in F71, but I am somewhat over all the constant posts about homages and ultra-cheapies, so I think it's about time to pull the trigger on my first HAQ.

Thanks to this thread, I am very close to picking up a lovely blue dial DS-2 Precidrive three-hander. It's exactly the style and specs I'm after, and is very competitively priced - the only equivalent three-hander HAQ in the price range is the Seiko Dolce, which is on the small side and a bit dull IMO.











I have a couple of questions before pulling the trigger, however, so I hope you can help.

1. Does anyone have this model or similar? I'd be interested to see some real-world pictures, particularly of the case finishing and sunray dial. It looks a bit flat in most of the photos I've seen online.

2. Does the well-known Spanish AD waive the 19% tax for customers outside the EU?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## gangrel

The dial on the Dolce is not dull. It doesn't photograph well. It is, to be sure, a small watch.

If this is Jambor / onewatchforyou, then this is from their Terms and Conditions:



> *All of our prices are inclusive of VAT. *
> *For countries outside the EU where VAT does not apply, this will be deducted automatically in the price given. *
> *For countries outside the EU: Import Duty and taxes will be paid for the customer.
> *


*

They were showing prices in $, detecting, I assume, a US IP address, so I'd assume the price they showed had VAT excluded. *


----------



## wbird

no-fi, does he even list what it will cost with shipping to you? And whatever customs fees you have to pay will be between you and New Zealand I assume. Just curious what is the size of that watch? It looks kind of small in the picture, especially the lug width.


----------



## chris01

no-fi said:


> Hello all. I'm a long-time HAQ lurker, first-time poster. I usually dwell in F71, but I am somewhat over all the constant posts about homages and ultra-cheapies, so I think it's about time to pull the trigger on my first HAQ.
> 
> Thanks to this thread, I am very close to picking up a lovely blue dial DS-2 Precidrive three-hander. It's exactly the style and specs I'm after, and is very competitively priced - the only equivalent three-hander HAQ in the price range is the Seiko Dolce, which is on the small side and a bit dull IMO.
> 
> I have a couple of questions before pulling the trigger, however, so I hope you can help.
> 
> 1. Does anyone have this model or similar? I'd be interested to see some real-world pictures, particularly of the case finishing and sunray dial. It looks a bit flat in most of the photos I've seen online.
> 
> 2. Does the well-known Spanish AD waive the 19% tax for customers outside the EU?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


This looks like the DS-2 PreciDrive, model number C024.410...
A decent watch I think. In case these issues are important to you, the calendar is a simple monthly and has to be adjusted for short months, with the quick set date position of the crown. The hour hand is not independently moveable, so changing DST or time zone requires resetting the watch.
If you have any questions about pricing, shipping, etc., contact Juan Carlos on their website. He is very helpful.


----------



## gangrel

wbird said:


> no-fi, does he even list what it will cost with shipping to you? And whatever customs fees you have to pay will be between you and New Zealand I assume. Just curious what is the size of that watch? It looks kind of small in the picture, especially the lug width.


It's a 40mm. Site, if I have the right one, says free shipping worldwide, IIRC. Customs, of course, is separate. chris is correct on the model number and features.

Certina DS 2 C024.410.11.041.20-Certina DS 2 -Watch Certina

Note that I'm seeing a page likely tailored to my location (US).


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

I bought it after deciding between it and the Tissot PR 100 COSC (same movement but certified chronometer) and I was not disappointed of my choice: it is all what I always look for esthetically. Unfortunately I had to return it, since it was defective. I have now the Titanium Chrono version but I want to have both. It is really excellent that Certina offers the opportunity to have a HAQ at this price range. Just a minor issue I have (but it is not a show stopper). No independent hour hand setting.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## no-fi

Thanks for all your responses. Yes, it's the C024.410... the 40mm size is about perfect for me. I wouldn't go much larger for an all-dial sporty dress watch.

The lack of independent hour hand is mildly annoying, but I'm already well trained in dealing with the issue thanks to my vintage Seiko Spirit - not rated as HAQ, but loses only about 1 sec a month. If it's only an issue twice a year, I can live with that.

Thanks for your answers re: tax and shipping. It's not immediately clear whether the price at checkout is with or without tax, so I'll drop Juan an email as recommended.

Looking forward to joining the team soon!


----------



## ronalddheld

We will be waiting for future pictures and impressions.


----------



## Verdict

Is there a way to identify which Certina models have the Precidrive movement in them other than the "Precidrive" text on the dial? I'm looking at an older model that isn't listed on Certina's website.


----------



## chris01

Verdict said:


> Is there a way to identify which Certina models have the Precidrive movement in them other than the "Precidrive" text on the dial? I'm looking at an older model that isn't listed on Certina's website.


If it's older than the DS-2 Chronograph, which went on sale in around mid-2013 and is still a current model, then it isn't PreciDrive.

AFAIK, the only earlier Certina HAQ model was the DS Diver, which had an ETA TC movement. I think that's the correct name, but it doesn't include the word Action. Strange watch, all-black, with a seconds sub-dial without any markings.

Correction: the name was *DS Master COSC*.


----------



## Miguel

Hello Everyone,

Third week report. As I mentioned last week, I would put the watch in rotation (with my Tissot Visodate) and I think it shows: low temperatures seems to make it go faster so the spy is now at +5.04. It is getting warmer of course, and thus we will see how this affects the rate. I am really happy with the results and if the watch keeps at less than +10 spy that will be great.


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

Fourth week! Lunar month for my DS-2 Chrono Titanium. It seems it will stabilize at something between +5 and +6 spy. that is excellent and well inside specs. This week it was in rotation with this excellent Hamilton Khaki Field Chrono 38mm, with a Valjoux 7750 that I successfully regulated at +2 sec/day, not because of my horology abilities (almost non existent), but because of how good is this movement and how well adjusted it came from the manufacturer:









This is not mine (too lazy to take a picture, so I took one from the web). Mine has a black leather strap.

So here is the data of my DS-2 for this week:


----------



## Miguel

Weekly report! 

This watch is incredible. With the warmer temperatures and the same pattern of use, here is the current values. I am taking the average of at least 20 measurements:









The current rotation is my birthday present: the Tissot PR 100 chronometer (with the Powermatic 80 movement) that is doing around +1 sec/day, well into the COSC specs:









Looking more in detail on the dial of the DS-2 Chrono, the thing that I find a little strange about the design of the DS-2 is the minute hand: perhaps one millimeter shorter and it could have shown the seconds markers inside the aperture at the edge of the hand when moving over them. Just a minor thing.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## gangrel

Argh...pls forgive this mild tangent...



















You'd pretty much say...same watch, right? Within the limits of picture quality...same case, same bezel, same lugs, same hands, same dial text. The crowns may be slightly different...but I wouldn't care to swear it's not just an image artifact. Forget the dial color and strap vs. bracelet; that's within typical variants for any given model.

Here, tho..one's got a Powermatic 80 inside, the other a PreciDrive. Yeah, OK, the differentiator can't be captured in a still image...the second hand movement would make things clear.

Tissot PR 100 Quartz COSC - T1014512603100
Tissot PR 100 Powermatic 80 COSC - T1014081103100

Man, this is *lazy*. The cases are different heights, which obviously we can't see here, so there's an inventory issue. Both models are 39mm, and both use white and black dials. But they can't bother to run 2 different printings? And they have PR 100s that are quartz...TC quartz...mechanical...and COSC mechanical. Let's confuse the market!!!!!

<sigh>

/rant off


----------



## Miguel

Agreed. Even though...I really like the esthetic, and as you said the limits of the picture cannot show the real thing. The silver dial is stunning. 

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## WIS_Chronomaster

I must admit i do like that!


----------



## daniel_leavitt2000

Hi guys,
I was doing some searching and came up with nothing. I really like the all black Certina DS 2 with rubber strap and green accents:

Certina DS-2 Chronograph Black Dial Men's Quartz Watch C024.447.17.051.22 - DS-2 - Certina - Watches - Jomashop

I really like the 251.264 movement, which is used in some much higher end watches.

This would be my first PVD coated watch, I have heard stories of the coating that chips, cracks or is easily scratched. Anyone know how well the PVD coating on the Certaina watches hold up?

If PVD is an issue, I think I may go with the titanium version:
http://www.jomashop.com/certina-watch-c024-447-44-051-00.html


----------



## Miguel

Hello everyone,

Here is the 8 weeks landmark for the DS-2 Chrono Titanium. It seems that it is stabilizing near +6 spy, which is excellent. I also received my new "new" DS-2 Three-Hand and I will be posting photos and my comments later. So, here there are the results so far:









Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

I would like to pull the trigger on the DS-2 Chrono (Ti version), but I am curious as how the long lugs wear? 

My wrist is a 6.3 and 50mm is the absolute limit when it comes to L2L. Everything about this watch is perfect, but when I realized how long the lugs were, I was a bit disappointed. I do have a 50.5 mm L2L on my pilot watch, and it works but being that this one was going to be my daily, I would prefer a more subdued fit but am going to give it a shot.


----------



## chris01

SeikoFanBoy said:


> I would like to pull the trigger on the DS-2 Chrono (Ti version), but I am curious as how the long lugs wear?
> 
> My wrist is a 6.3 and 50mm is the absolute limit when it comes to L2L. Everything about this watch is perfect, but when I realized how long the lugs were, I was a bit disappointed. I do have a 50.5 mm L2L on my pilot watch, and it works but being that this one was going to be my daily, I would prefer a more subdued fit but am going to give it a shot.


The steel version is 50.6mm and it seems very likely that the Ti would be the same. The lugs aren't very obtrusive, as they curve down towards the wrist quite a bit. I have a wrist not much bigger than yours and this has always seemed an easy watch to wear (which I do on most days).

(edited to remove ambiguity in the final sentence!)


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> The steel version is 50.6mm and it seems very likely that the Ti would be the same. The lugs aren't very obtrusive, as they curve down towards the wrist quite a bit. I have a wrist not much bigger than yours and this has always seemed an easy watch to wear (which I do on most days).
> 
> (edited to remove ambiguity in the final sentence!)


My Ti version has the identical dimensions as to the stainless version Chris posted in the beginning of this thread.


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

I picked up an "open-boxed" Ti DS-2 from Joma for $550. Is this the going price these days? 

It is arriving this Wed, and I cannot wait!
Anymore of pictures of the Ti on wrist?


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

Usually, I have been able to keep my cool with watches coming in... but this was has gotten me excited and I don't know what to do with myself until then...


----------



## yankeexpress

SeikoFanBoy said:


> I picked up an "open-boxed" Ti DS-2 from Joma for $550. Is this the going price these days?
> 
> It is arriving this Wed, and I cannot wait!
> Anymore of pictures of the Ti on wrist?


Congrats! Decent deal for a special watch. They are super accurate and good looking. Be sure to post photos of it here.


----------



## Miguel

SeikoFanBoy said:


> I picked up an "open-boxed" Ti DS-2 from Joma for $550. Is this the going price these days?
> 
> It is arriving this Wed, and I cannot wait!
> Anymore of pictures of the Ti on wrist?


Hi,

As requested. What I really like is that sepia kind of tone of titanium and of course how light weighted it is.


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

may I ask your wrist size?

I really like how the polished piece on the bracelet looks a bit muted, as I am planning to use the bracelet on this one and don't like bling.


----------



## Miguel

Yes. It is 17.5cm so about 6.88 inches.

I was surprised it goes well with small wrists

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Miguel

Hello Everyone,

Here is the two weeks report for not only both the Certina DS-2 and the DS-2 Chrono. I am applying the MOD function to the seconds so the graph won't be too tall. That means that every time you see a sudden descent on the bar it is because a second has been reached or exceeded. So far both watches gains rather than loose time.

I am gladly surprised with the DS-2, since the specifications say that it can comply with the COSC (so between +- 25.55 spy), on the contrary of the DS-2 chrono that clearly advertise +-10 spy. Mine, for now is around the 4 spy. Very nice and very HAQ .

DS-2









DS-2 Chrono









Family photo:









Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## jdbaldoc

Are there any Certina DS Precidrive models rated at 300M 'WR'. If you have any pics please post them?


----------



## chris01

jdbaldoc said:


> Are there any Certina DS Precidrive models rated at 300M 'WR'. If you have any pics please post them?


You should find some here: | certina


----------



## jdbaldoc

I saw a pic of a Certuna DS Action chronograph Precidrive rated at 300M which is unusual for a chronograph. It also had the florescent green hands & highlights, I believe it had a balck dial that all together really looked awesome. Just can't refind the pic or know if it was an older model.


----------



## uplockjock

SeikoFanBoy said:


> may I ask your wrist size?
> 
> I really like how the polished piece on the bracelet looks a bit muted, as I am planning to use the bracelet on this one and don't like bling.


If you don't like bling, you might be disappointed with this watch. I have this watch, and the shiny circles surroundingthe complications drives me nuts!


----------



## jdbaldoc

Uplockjock, Do you have a pic of your watch?


----------



## uplockjock

jdbaldoc said:


> Uplockjock, Do you have a pic of your watch?


It's the exact same watch as he original post. In m opinion,it makes the watch cheap looking.
also, while the bracelet is very nice, it too is highly polished.


----------



## uplockjock

The shiny circles surrounding the complications reflect and sparkle in any light. not great look for this type of watch


----------



## Tom-HK

I believe we have at least one forum member who painstakingly brushed all the shiny bits, making a less 'blingy' and less fingerprint smudge prone bracelet.


----------



## yankeexpress




----------



## uplockjock

yankeexpress said:


>


is this brushed? It looks nice!


----------



## jdbaldoc

I don't think that it looks too blingy. 
You can always take a dremel tool with light brush wheel (non-metalic) and knock down the shine to more of a brushed stainless look.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I believe we have at least one forum member who painstakingly brushed all the shiny bits, making a less 'blingy' and less fingerprint smudge prone bracelet.


That description does include me. It's as Tom says, plus the inevitable scratches are still there but don't hit you in the eye. I brushed the whole bracelet, as it's much easier and gives a uniform finish.


----------



## Rdenney

Polished rings around subdials are used at all price points. How does that make a watch look cheap?

But it must be said that it is a relatively inexpensive watch, and won't have the look of a watches priced into the four figures. 

Rick "maybe misunderstanding the complaint" Denney


----------



## chris01

Rdenney said:


> Polished rings around subdials are used at all price points. How does that make a watch look cheap?
> 
> But it must be said that it is a relatively inexpensive watch, and won't have the look of a watches priced into the four figures.
> 
> Rick "maybe misunderstanding the complaint" Denney


Makes no sense to me. If those very thin rings are a problem, then what about the shiny hands and indices?


----------



## uplockjock

Rdenney said:


> Polished rings around subdials are used at all price points. How does that make a watch look cheap?
> 
> But it must be said that it is a relatively inexpensive watch, and won't have the look of a watches priced into the four figures.
> 
> Rick "maybe misunderstanding the complaint" Denney


Perhaps cheap is the wrong wording. maybe distracting is better. the watch has such nice build quality that I wish it were perfect in all regards.
As it is, every time I wear it all I notice are these cheezy sparkles blinking back at me. Oh, well, it's still used to set the time on my other watches


----------



## Rdenney

uplockjock said:


> Perhaps cheap is the wrong wording. maybe distracting is better. the watch has such nice build quality that I wish it were perfect in all regards.
> As it is, every time I wear it all I notice are these cheezy sparkles blinking back at me. Oh, well, it's still used to set the time on my other watches


Well, it _is_ a sparkly watch, and you may not like sparkly watches. But there are many, many, many sparkly watches at very high price points, so I don't get how being sparkly makes it look _cheap._ I really don't think the shiny bits on the Certina are cheesy, but obviously you do.

As for me, I rather like watches with some sparkle on them. I certainly don't think shiny bits make a watch less than perfect. The shiny parts of this Certina actually give it the appearance of hitting above its weight class a bit. But I thought the bracelet was less than stellar, so I got the strap. Turns out, the strap is also less than stellar, which is not unexpected, but it does look good.

Rick "not distracted by shiny bits" Denney


----------



## uplockjock

chris01 said:


> That description does include me. It's as Tom says, plus the inevitable scratches are still there but don't hit you in the eye. I brushed the whole bracelet, as it's much easier and gives a uniform finish.
> 
> View attachment 11920546


What may I ask did you use to brush your bracelet? Mine is on a nice thick leather strap s of now, but I would like to try it on the bracelet.

And yea,since it's been brought up, the indicies are another sore spot with me. I would MUCH pefer them to be fully lumed.


----------



## chris01

uplockjock said:


> What may I ask did you use to brush your bracelet? Mine is on a nice thick leather strap s of now, but I would like to try it on the bracelet.


I bought some of each:
https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/3m-scotchbrite-sanding-sponges
but I have only used the Super Fine.


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

Been meaning to update the thread with some pics...

This watch has been growing on me. The lug to lug is a tad over what I prefer but the lightness of the Ti balances it all out for me, and I like it.

It is a sparkly watch, which I actually like. It looks nice when you are dressed up. 
If you don't like the sparkle, then this watch isn't for you. It will look a bit out of place in the woods or the countryside but fits in with the urban landscape, which works for me.

The following pics have a filter, but I believe it is still an accurate portrayal of the watch in person.


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

For future ref and for anybody interested, my wrist size is about 6.3".

*Edit: someone was commenting on how the Ti crystal was very reflective, and I wanted to make a comment on that. I don't believe it is caused by the lack of AR coating on the crystal but the reflective black dial that reflects the light back under certain lighting and angles. It doesn't bother me, and I don't think it take away from the watch because it is a extremely small angle window that does this.

Thanks for everybody on here who helped me before.


----------



## jdbaldoc

What is the case size of the Certina DS Precidrive Ti in your pic?


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

They all the same size - 41mm. This one is just made of titanium
Its not the diameter that is big but the lug to lug - 50.6mm

Pick might make is look oversized but in person, it looks good. The 2nd pic more representative of how it looks in person.



jdbaldoc said:


> What is the case size of the Certina DS Precidrive Ti in your pic?


----------



## jdbaldoc

OK! 

On that particular watch, it is the OAL lug to lug length, that actually makes it wear and look larger than the 'GS' Spring Drive Diver, which is also a very large watch for the average or sub-average sized wrist. Good thing that it is in 'Ti' otherwise it would be extremely heavy on the wrist. I know that the 'GS' SD diver is over 200g's in S.S.


----------



## chris01

jdbaldoc said:


> OK!
> 
> On that particular watch, it is the OAL lug to lug length, that actually makes it wear and look larger than the 'GS' Spring Drive Diver, which is also a very large watch for the average or sub-average sized wrist. Good thing that it is in 'Ti' otherwise it would be extremely heavy on the wrist. I know that the 'GS' SD diver is over 200g's in S.S.


It's not that bad. With full bracelet the steel version is 160g. My wrist is on the small side, and this is my heaviest watch (I only have one other that's over 120g), but I find it very comfortable and not obtrusive, with daily wear. One thing that helps is the thickness: at 12.5 mm it's much thinner than many mechanical chronos, especially 7750-based which tend to be 15-17 mm.


----------



## watchman1221

SeikoFanBoy, thanks for the pics! Love how the crystal gleams in the light, and the dial is awesome.


----------



## Miguel

Hi SeikoFanBoy,

Is this the open-box you bought from Joma? For what I can see in your picture, it is in perfect condition. Very good deal indeed. Do you have already any data about accuracy?

Regards,

Miguel


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

Here are two more week monitoring the performance of the DS-2 and DS-2 Chrono, always against time.gov:

*DS-2 Chrono*









*
DS-2*









Since the temperatures are now warmer and between the range specified by ETA, I will leave the DS-2 Chrono in storage, to see how well the thermo-compensation works, without any time on the wrist. For the last weeks, it has been very consistant in its behaviour. Let's see what happens.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

Sorry I haven't gotten around to timing it.
I'm not a HAQ nut and don't really know how to time it.

Honestly, just the knowledge that the watch has a respectable HAQ movement is good enough for me.
I was looking for one grab-and-go quartz option in the collection, and I figured I would get a HAQ while I was at it.



Miguel said:


> Hi SeikoFanBoy,
> 
> Is this the open-box you bought from Joma? For what I can see in your picture, it is in perfect condition. Very good deal indeed. Do you have already any data about accuracy?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Miguel


----------



## gangrel

All I do is check periodically by comparing against time.gov or time.is. Started trying to do it every month, but I forget regularly. And if a few checks shows it's ok, then maybe 1 time in the summer, around July 1st, might be plenty. March, July, November...comes out to be pretty evenly spaced checks.


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

Compared to the people in this HAQ thread... I feel like one of those fashion watch enthusiasts.

I am just satisfied by the looks of the thing and the knowledge that it isn't some cheap Ronda movement running it.


----------



## chris01

SeikoFanBoy said:


> Compared to the people in this HAQ thread... I feel like one of those fashion watch enthusiasts.
> 
> I am just satisfied by the looks of the thing and the knowledge that it isn't some cheap Ronda movement running it.


No need to apologise for that.  If only dedicated HAQ enthusiasts bought HAQ watches there wouldn't be any watches for sale. Just enjoy it!


----------



## jdbaldoc

It is good information tracking the accuracy on a month to month basis, to get a feel for variations. 
But, as quartz crystals age, their frequency will change slightly, as well as the aging of any electronic components. So, the overall 12 month accuracy (using the same reference to the atomic clock) is the most important to me, as a true accuracy metric. 
What is also very important is, as the components age, is there a convenient way that either the owner of the watch or a competent watchmaker can fine tune the accuracy, without having to send it back to the factory.
That is one of the really nice features of my S&18K Gold Omega Seamaster 300 Professional "SQ" watch, with its dual oscillator and T/C controlled timing board. It can easily be fine tuned for any aging components by yourself or by any watchmaker in +/- 0.33 Seconds Per Month increments. My watch runs at +/- 4 SPY.
Does anyone know if the Certina Precidrive with T/C can be easily adjustable to fine tune it?
Its nice to see that you can still get a very accurate T/C compensated watch in an affordable good looking platform.


----------



## chris01

jdbaldoc said:


> Does anyone know if the Certina Precidrive with T/C can be easily adjustable to fine tune it?
> Its nice to see that you can still get a very accurate T/C compensated watch in an affordable good looking platform.


Two pieces of evidence: I have done some experiments on my own DS-2 chrono, with no success. Another forum member has been told by ETA that rate adjustment on this movement is only possible with special equipment. The two contacts marked + and - on my watch are now unmarked on later watches.

It appears that this specific PreciDrive movement (ETA 251.264) can be regulated but I wouldn't count on getting Swatch Service to adjust my watch by, say, +4 SPY. Some of the more basic PD movements are probably not adjustable.

The older ETA TC movements that can be easily regulated are a valuable resource!


----------



## SeikoFanBoy

I've been meaning to add one last pic on here to show how good it looks on a Stowa pilot strap that I had lying around...

I do want to add that I have put the watch up for sale..
I hope this does not come off as a shameless plug to try and sell the my watch

The reasons that I ultimately decided to sell the watch were...
The long lug to lug did end up bothering me a bit
I realized that I do prefer my tool watches to be more rugged looking than blingy although this really is a beautiful watch
Also, the titanium is extremely light and nice, but I am always worried about scratching the thing because I know that the Ti is more prone to scratching, which dampens the whole experience for me

At over 500$, this is my most expensive watch to date, and I think that for the money, I would rather have something that I am 100% happy with

I am having a lot of fun with the Hamilton Khaki Navy sub (white dial) that I picked up new though. 
I am really considering it to be my daily for a long time and taking a step back from this expensive hobby |>


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

After two weeks without any wrist time (but at room temperature around 23 degrees Celsius), I am impressed by the performance of the ETA 251.264 AA. Here is the graph (yellow in the two weeks the DS-2 Chrono was not used):









And here it is for the DS-2:









Not bad at all... And I know the DS-2 is not the perfect HAQ (I would like the perpetual calendar and independent hour hand of The Citizen) but I give kudos to the Swatch group for offering relatively affordable thermo-compensated timepieces.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## muhibtv

So shiny. I can't imagine it putting it on and expose it to everyday's abuse.


----------



## wapap

The models with grey and silver main dials have a nice subtle sunburst effect. How are the black dials? Do they show any such effect or are they basically completely flat? For reference, here are the most common models below. Third and fourth, as well as a not shown silver/gold/black model have that sunburst effect. How about numbers 1,2, and 5? Thx.









This is what I mean:


----------



## wapap

SigmaPiJiggy
I'm about 5 seconds from buying this. Anyone have a lug to lug on this? 41mm should work for me but my wrists are 6.75ish and I LOATHE overhang.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE said:


> Did you buy it? How does this color combination look in real life?


----------



## Lee_K

This one came at a price too good to pass up. Sauber Formula 1 racing team Limited Edition number 1960 out of 2014. Carbon fiber dial, dark gray sunburst gradient sub-dials. Rubber strap with red stitching.


----------



## therion

Just got mine, it's lovely!


----------



## therion

On an 18.5 cm wrist


----------



## therion

I noticed that the datewheel is a bit misaligned. The numbers are visible, but pushed to the left side of the date window. My watchsmith says that it can't be repaired and I'd like to know if that's true? Is this a common flaw?


----------



## chris01

therion said:


> I noticed that the datewheel is a bit misaligned. The numbers are visible, but pushed to the left side of the date window. My watchsmith says that it can't be repaired and I'd like to know if that's true? Is this a common flaw?


Why not give us a picture that shows the problem? The photo in your previous post (date=28) looks perfectly OK to me.


----------



## therion

chris01 said:


> Why not give us a picture that shows the problem? The photo in your previous post (date=28) looks perfectly OK to me.


Yeah, sure, it slipped my mind when I posted my question. 28 looks OK actually, numbers between 10 and 19 are the worst..


----------



## gaijin

therion said:


> Yeah, sure, it slipped my mind when I posted my question. 28 looks OK actually, numbers between 10 and 19 are the worst..


I don't think there is anything misaligned on your date wheel. Please take a close look at the "1" in "18" and you will see it is perfectly parallel with the side of the window.

What you are thge victim of is a design decision by whomever designed your date wheel. They decided to center the numbers that are single digits, start with "2" or start with "3" but decided to "left adjust" the numbers beginning with "1."

If anyone were to try adjusting the date wheel (not possible, but bear with me), the number "18" might wind up centered in the window, but would display at an angle - still not acceptable.

I suggest you enjoy the design of your date wheel as an endearing design quirk.

HTH


----------



## chris01

gaijin said:


> I don't think there is anything misaligned on your date wheel. Please take a close look at the "1" in "18" and you will see it is perfectly parallel with the side of the window.
> 
> What you are thge victim of is a design decision by whomever designed your date wheel. They decided to center the numbers that are single digits, start with "2" or start with "3" but decided to "left adjust" the numbers beginning with "1."
> 
> If anyone were to try adjusting the date wheel (not possible, but bear with me), the number "18" might wind up centered in the window, but would display at an angle - still not acceptable.
> 
> I suggest you enjoy the design of your date wheel as an endearing design quirk.
> 
> HTH


Comparing this with mine, on the 19th, therion's 18 is definitely displaced to the left. It looks to me like an inconsistency in the printing of the date wheel, rather than a mechanical alignment issue. Probably not fixable without a new date disc. Perhaps an item to be addressed when the watch gets serviced, if you can bear to wait. Or, yes, just live with it and enjoy the fact that you have a (fairly) unique watch.


----------



## gangrel

gaijin said:


> What you are thge victim of is a design decision by whomever designed your date wheel. They decided to center the numbers that are single digits, start with "2" or start with "3" but decided to "left adjust" the numbers beginning with "1."
> 
> If anyone were to try adjusting the date wheel (not possible, but bear with me), the number "18" might wind up centered in the window, but would display at an angle - still not acceptable.


Uhhh...what?

It's a simple wheel. Divide the wheel into 31 separate display areas, each with a fixed, same size. Each one can, and should, be considered completely separate 'boxes' within which the text is centered. So how you center any text in each box is completely independent of the text in any other box.

I agree with chris. Odds are, the dial is slightly misprinted.

If it was an issue of alignment of the entire wheel...possible, if it's affecting multiple dates...then you're talking a shift of no more than a couple degrees. I seriously doubt you'd see any tilt to the numbers.


----------



## therion

Guys, thank you for your input, I appreciate it! I had over 150 watches in the last couple of years ( I'm a serial flipper, can't help it, it's a disease  ),mostly mechanical and this sort of thing has happened to me only once and my watchsmith was able to fix it. But it was an ETA 2836 movement, not a quartz. I'm actually very surprised that this kind of flaw makes it through QC process in the factory. This watch has an audience that expects accuracy and precision and I don't think that a datewheel, that looks like this, fits the description..
@gaijin : The numbers are actually perfectly centered when I set the date by moving the hour hand and the hour hand hits "midnight", but the datewheel moves a bit to the left when the hour hand moves to the 1 o'clock marker. The numbers are not tilted when they are in the perfect position in the middle.
I think it's a misprint, but can't wrap my mind around on how that even happens in an automated production process. I guess they buy their datewheels in a country far far away, where quality means nothing and cost per unit is everything.


----------



## yankeexpress

wapap said:


> The models with grey and silver main dials have a nice subtle sunburst effect. How are the black dials? Do they show any such effect or are they basically completely flat? For reference, here are the most common models below. Third and fourth, as well as a not shown silver/gold/black model have that sunburst effect. How about numbers 1,2, and 5? Thx.
> 
> View attachment 12513607
> 
> 
> This is what I mean:
> 
> View attachment 12513625


The first version with green has subdials with sunburst:


----------



## tmathes

therion said:


> Guys, thank you for your input, I appreciate it! I had over 150 watches in the last couple of years ( I'm a serial flipper, can't help it, it's a disease  ),mostly mechanical and this sort of thing has happened to me only once and my watchsmith was able to fix it. But it was an ETA 2836 movement, not a quartz. I'm actually very surprised that this kind of flaw makes it through QC process in the factory. This watch has an audience that expects accuracy and precision and I don't think that a datewheel, that looks like this, fits the description..
> @gaijin : The numbers are actually perfectly centered when I set the date by moving the hour hand and the hour hand hits "midnight", but the datewheel moves a bit to the left when the hour hand moves to the 1 o'clock marker. The numbers are not tilted when they are in the perfect position in the middle.
> I think it's a misprint, but can't wrap my mind around on how that even happens in an automated production process. I guess they buy their datewheels in a country far far away, where quality means nothing and cost per unit is everything.


Welcome to the world of hit-or-miss Swatch initial quality, they're the lousiest by a long shot of any brand I own (even Timex surpasses them on initial quality in my experience). I have plenty of stories about problems out-of-the box with Swatch brands at all kinds of price points (Longines, Certina, Omega).

And my DS-2 chrono does a similar sort of thing with the date wheel but not quite as misaligned as yours.


----------



## therion

Pretty disappointing, the whole thing..I never expected this sort of issue from a watch, that has precision and accuracy as two main selling points.
I went to the ADs yesterday, they have 7 pieces in different colors and it seems like this watch is a hit or miss. 4 were terribly misaligned, worse than mine, 2 were OK and only one was great. The saleslady said, that they had complaints, but the service center said that it's within tolerance...
Meh..


----------



## chris01

I guess that either I was lucky with mine, bought 2 weeks short of 4 years ago and worn almost daily, or Certina's QC has deteriorated. I can't fault this watch, with the exception of the easily scratched polished centre links, and that's easily fixed by brushing them. All the hands and the date are perfectly aligned to the naked eye, it's running at a very steady +6.25, and it's still on the same battery. Sad to hear of so many reported problems, although as always we hear little from satisfied customers.


----------



## tmathes

therion said:


> Pretty disappointing, the whole thing..I never expected this sort of issue from a watch, that has precision and accuracy as two main selling points.
> I went to the ADs yesterday, they have 7 pieces in different colors and it seems like this watch is a hit or miss. 4 were terribly misaligned, worse than mine, 2 were OK and only one was great. The saleslady said, that they had complaints, but the service center said that it's within tolerance...
> Meh..


You're just reinforcing my perception, Swatch initial quality is lousy and their manufacturing is sloppy compared to competitors.

I don't doubt at all the service center was sincere, what the factory is doing is doing is 'spec'ing around the problem'. That's common in the engineering world (and am guilty of it a few times myself). There are so many ways they could have avoided this sloppiness by better design. I find it galling the sweep second hands, which are motor controlled, did not have a fine adjustment. Three other chronos I have with a a fine-position sweep second hand (Bulova, Timex, Seiko) all allow that hand to be moved in under 1/5th second increments. There are other ways they could have avoided shipping sloppy product that don't require production to be more accurate.

And Chris, I think you just got a lime. I have two Certinas and neither is within their claimed spec when I wore it regularly, and you saw how lousy the hand placement was on my first DS-2 chrono. It's not the movement, it's Swatch's lack of attention to detail (in this case their ability to trim the watch in production is mediocre at best and placement of hands on the stem) that is pathetic.

Again, for the price point Swatch is selling at their design detail and manufacturing details are lousy. To me their saving grace is their designs, that's the only reason I still consider them.


----------



## clance

Hi,

I ordered a Certina DS-2 online from the US (grey market) about 6 weeks ago - the supplier is struggling to supply this watch so I am looking at other options.

Can anyone recommend a supplier of Certina watches who will ship to Australia?

Cheers

Chris


----------



## ronalddheld

clance said:


> Hi,
> 
> I ordered a Certina DS-2 online from the US about 6 weeks ago - the supplier is struggling to supply this watch so I am looking at other options.
> 
> Can anyone recommend a supplier of Certina watches who will ship to Australia?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Chris


Response via PM.


----------



## jdbaldoc

What is the model# of the green hand dialed version in your pic?

What is it's "WR" rating?

As a Precidrive, how accurate is it under wearing conditions?


----------



## Rdenney

jdbaldoc said:


> What is the model# of the green hand dialed version in your pic?
> 
> What is it's "WR" rating?
> 
> As a Precidrive, how accurate is it under wearing conditions?


Whose pic? The DA-2 Chronograph with the green seconds hand and strap has reference number C024.447.16.051.02. The last digit is 01 for a bracelet.

Water resistance rating is 100m.

Those answers required 60 seconds of Googling.

It is accurate to +/- 10 seconds/year in use.

Rick "the '16' in the reference refers to the green hand" Denney


----------



## chris01

Another year's measurements, finishing at +6.3 SPY.









The green blobs with yellow labels show the variation for each calendar month, expressed as an annual rate. The dotted red line is a running 30-day average of a daily indoor temperature. The actual values are not significant but it shows the seasonal ambient temperature changes, and it appears that the the watch runs a bit faster when cool. This is the opposite of the performance I find with my Longines VHP watches.

This watch has been worn most days, so this has helped to keep the seasonal variation quite small. The upturns in rate in February and April were caused by the watch being unworn for a few days in each case.

After 50 months from new, the watch is still on its original battery.


----------



## Miguel

chris01 said:


> Another year's measurements, finishing at +6.3 SPY.
> 
> View attachment 12771477
> 
> 
> The green blobs with yellow labels show the variation for each calendar month, expressed as an annual rate. The dotted red line is a running 30-day average of a daily indoor temperature. The actual values are not significant but it shows the seasonal ambient temperature changes, and it appears that the the watch runs a bit faster when cool. This is the opposite of the performance I find with my Longines VHP watches.
> 
> This watch has been worn most days, so this has helped to keep the seasonal variation quite small. The upturns in rate in February and April were caused by the watch being unworn for a few days in each case.
> 
> After 50 months from new, the watch is still on its original battery.


Hi Chris,

Excellent follow-up of your watch! I have a question: do you know if the use of the chronograph impacts in any way the accuracy of the watch? I ask because, I restarted measuring my DS-2 Chrono Ti, and it was perfectly consistent during the first two weeks but then, during the third week I happened to use the chronograph several times and at the end, the accuracy for that week was worst:

SPY per week:
1st week: +5.74
2nd week: +5.90
3rd week: +8.80

I won't use the chronograph during this week to see if there is an improvement.

By the way, a very happy new year to all the members of the forum!

Miguel


----------



## chris01

Miguel said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Excellent follow-up of your watch! I have a question: do you know if the use of the chronograph impacts in any way the accuracy of the watch? I ask because, I restarted measuring my DS-2 Chrono Ti, and it was perfectly consistent during the first two weeks but then, during the third week I happened to use the chronograph several times and at the end, the accuracy for that week was worst:
> 
> SPY per week:
> 1st week: +5.74
> 2nd week: +5.90
> 3rd week: +8.80
> 
> I won't use the chronograph during this week to see if there is an improvement.
> 
> By the way, a very happy new year to all the members of the forum!
> 
> Miguel


Hi Miguel,

A Happy New Year to you!

I don't have any definite info on the effect of the chrono. Since only one motor is used to drive the time and date, and the other 4 motors are used for the chrono hands, the only possible impact I can guess at is that there is extra loading on the battery. This might affect the timing, especially if the battery isn't too good.

A more likely cause, assuming that your measuring technique is consistent, is a difference in ambient temperature or wearing pattern.

Don't forget that measuring the variation over only one week is greatly affected by even a small error. A difference of 3 SPY between two successive weeks' measurements is a difference in variation of only 60 milliseconds.


----------



## yankeexpress




----------



## ruffy

I haven't checked the accuracy of my LE until today since I originally set it about 2 years ago. It is just over +1. That's pretty good.


----------



## Vioviv

Dear OP and all thread participants ... 
I have been shopping for a new sports chronograph for a few months now, and this thread helped me settle on the Certina DS-2. I have kids who run track so this will be well used. And no, I don't really need 1/100th accuracy, but I don't mind having it just for fun. It's also my first HAQ!
The main reason I'm posting now, instead of waiting until it arrives ... I bought mine last night at Ashford for $290 _plus_ a 20%-off coupon code for clearance items. They have very limited stock however, and didn't have any bracelets available, but compared to the few other places that had them for sale, this seemed like a pretty good deal. 
Anyway, thanks again for a fascinating thread about a cool watch that I would never have known about otherwise.


----------



## jfwund

I've been researching and looking for a good quality quartz chronograph, and I've appreciated reading about the DS2 here. I just ordered the DS2 Titanium Chrono from Joma - supposedly 1-3 business days so I hope to have it in the next week or so. I'm excited for my first HAQ!

I see that the bracelet uses pins instead of screws - does it also use the tiny collars, or just the pins?

And, anyone take their DS2 Chrono off of the bracelet? What did you put it on?


----------



## chris01

jfwund said:


> I've been researching and looking for a good quality quartz chronograph, and I've appreciated reading about the DS2 here. I just ordered the DS2 Titanium Chrono from Joma - supposedly 1-3 business days so I hope to have it in the next week or so. I'm excited for my first HAQ!
> 
> I see that the bracelet uses pins instead of screws - does it also use the tiny collars, or just the pins?
> 
> And, anyone take their DS2 Chrono off of the bracelet? What did you put it on?


Full-length split pins, no collars (I assume the Ti uses the same as the steel). They're not very robust so take great care when removing & replacing, and note the arrows showing the removal direction.

I did try mine on a couple of Perlon straps - black and mid-grey - it worked, and looked OK, but I'm not at all keen on straps, so it's remained on the rather comfortable bracelet.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Full-length split pins, no collars (I assume the Ti uses the same as the steel). They're not very robust so take great care when removing & replacing, and note the arrows showing the removal direction.
> 
> I did try mine on a couple of Perlon straps - black and mid-grey - it worked, and looked OK, but I'm not at all keen on straps, so it's remained on the rather comfortable bracelet.


Chris is correct, the Ti version uses split pins with no collars.

I have my DS-2 Ti on the bracelet during cooler months, a strap during the warmer months. I use the Certina branded black strap with red stitching along with the Certina braded deployant (same strap as the stainless model that is sold with the strap). I had the AD order it for me when I purchased the watch. It's not the best strap (too shiny and stiff) plus the deployant isn't comfortable since the strap end tucks is underneath the deployant making the bottom of the strap too thick. Omega uses as similar deployant design. It does look tidy though since there's no strap end showing.

If you want a black strap with red stitching I'd suggest the Hirsch Jumper, it looks similar to the Certina branded strap but less shiny and more comfortable. I have on for another watch, they're easy to find (got mine from Amazon) and pairs nicely with the DS-2 Ti in place of the bracelet. If you want to go fancier the Hirsch Robby is a good choice but much pricier.


----------



## 01svtL

Does the seconds hand of the ETA G10.212-fitted Certinas sweep like the Bulova Accutron II's?


----------



## Tom-HK

01svtL said:


> Does the seconds hand of the ETA G10.212-fitted Certinas sweep like the Bulova Accutron II's?


No, it doesn't.


----------



## tmathes

01svtL said:


> Does the seconds hand of the ETA G10.212-fitted Certinas sweep like the Bulova Accutron II's?


As stated earlier, it doesn't. I believe the 1/2 second sub-dial second hand ticking in a quartz movement is unique to Bulova. Also, the 1/2 second tick is seen only in the 'Accutron II" type chrono movements (Lunar Pilot, Chronograph C), the 3 handers like the now-discontinued Accutron II Surveyor line have (had?) the full-sized smooth sweep second hand.


----------



## Miguel

Hi Everyone.

In December I bought a Reverse Panda for $350 (Jomashop). Excellent price so I recently sold my three-hand (without independent hour hand it defeats the purpose in my humble opinion). So, I started measuring both the Titanium and the Reverse Panda from January 1st 2018, so after 120 days these are the results:

Certina DS2 Titanium: *+11.89 spy* (sharing wear time with the Longines VHP and the mechanics) 
Certina DS2 Reverse Panda: *+9.16 spy* (with no wear time whatsoever)

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Miguel

Wrist-cat shots...


----------



## Relo60

Good early Tuesday morning. Checking in before turning in with my DS2


----------



## Miguel

Hello Everyone,

Risking being naïve with this question: If I bring my DS-2 Titanium to the Service Center (it is in downtown Montreal), asking them to trim the rate of the watch, is there any apparatus they have that can verify the current rate of the watch? My Titanium is my preferred model and would really like it to be between the expected range. Additionally, what kind of machine or method Certina use to verify that the watch is right on specs?

Sorry for the silly questions and thanks,

Miguel


----------



## Tom-HK

Miguel said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Risking being naïve with this question: If I bring my DS-2 Titanium to the Service Center (it is in downtown Montreal), asking them to trim the rate of the watch, is there any apparatus they have that can verify the current rate of the watch? My Titanium is my preferred model and would really like it to be between the expected range. Additionally, what kind of machine or method Certina use to verify that the watch is right on specs?
> 
> Sorry for the silly questions and thanks,
> 
> Miguel


This is actually a really good question. I strongly suspect that the service centre itself would not have a machine capable of accurately measuring the rate of your watch. As for how brands do measure the rate (at the factory or during QC, for example), I only wish I knew!

Anecdotal evidence of the consistency (or lack thereof) of ETA's recent HAQ movements has led some to conclude that their calibration methods lack accuracy. This may in part be due to the method they use for testing rate.

There are two problems here :

1) determining an accurate annual rate in a short period of time for a watch that is spec'd to gain or lose only ten seconds in every 31,536,000;
2) determining a rate that reflects the reality of the owner's experience, with its myriad influences of wearing pattern and ambient atmospheric conditions.

Amongst our number, a few of us have ultra-precise contraptions that can give, within a reasonably short space of time, some suggestion as to what the performance of a HAQ might be. And it is probably safe to assume that the brand, back at the factory, has a set-up even more impressive than this.

For measuring real world performance, however, we mostly find that the only approach that has any real meaning is observation over long periods of time. That is not to say that real world conditions cannot be replicated in a lab by use, for example, of a controlled atmospheric chamber (and indeed for COSC certification all quartz movements would have to be tested at a variety of temperatures over a number of days), but unless the user provides an accurate report of his wearing pattern and the brand is willing to test and adjust for that particular pattern (spoiler : they are not), then they will never truly be able to confirm with their machines just how well it poorly your watch is performing.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Miguel said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Risking being naïve with this question: If I bring my DS-2 Titanium to the Service Center (it is in downtown Montreal), asking them to trim the rate of the watch, is there any apparatus they have that can verify the current rate of the watch? My Titanium is my preferred model and would really like it to be between the expected range. Additionally, what kind of machine or method Certina use to verify that the watch is right on specs?
> 
> Sorry for the silly questions and thanks,
> 
> Miguel


Witschi sells professional timing machines. No doubt the service center has a few.

I don't think you can be sure that the movement can be re-regulated. They may be burned in for life, and your only option is a swap.

Otherwise you need to be very specific with your requirements. What temperature you want it regulated against.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> This is actually a really good question. I strongly suspect that the service centre itself would not have a machine capable of accurately measuring the rate of your watch. As for how brands do measure the rate (at the factory or during QC, for example), I only wish I knew!
> 
> Anecdotal evidence of the consistency (or lack thereof) of ETA's recent HAQ movements has led some to conclude that their calibration methods lack accuracy. This may in part be due to the method they use for testing rate.
> 
> There are two problems here :
> 
> 1) determining an accurate annual rate in a short period of time for a watch that is spec'd to gain or lose only ten seconds in every 31,536,000;
> 2) determining a rate that reflects the reality of the owner's experience, with its myriad influences of wearing pattern and ambient atmospheric conditions.
> 
> Amongst our number, a few of us have ultra-precise contraptions that can give, within a reasonably short space of time, some suggestion as to what the performance of a HAQ might be. And it is probably safe to assume that the brand, back at the factory, has a set-up even more impressive than this.
> 
> For measuring real world performance, however, we mostly find that the only approach that has any real meaning is observation over long periods of time. That is not to say that real world conditions cannot be replicated in a lab by use, for example, of a controlled atmospheric chamber (and indeed for COSC certification all quartz movements would have to be tested at a variety of temperatures over a number of days), but unless the user provides an accurate report of his wearing pattern and the brand is willing to test and adjust for that particular pattern (spoiler : they are not), then they will never truly be able to confirm with their machines just how well it poorly your watch is performing.


The real-world experience of the individual user is the problem. My own approach with the old VHPs is to look at the rate over a year and then decide how much adjustment (+/-4 SPY) to apply. I know that short-term rate measurements are far too susceptible to ambient temperature fluctuations to give a rate that will truly deliver the desired correction. If the watch cannot be regulated in the field then you are stuck with whatever the service centre can do, and is willing to do. If you say to them: "this watch runs at +12 SPY in use, can you slow it by that amount (or something close)?", they will either look at you as if you're mad or will say that their (probably automatic) equipment doesn't allow it. You will then get the regulation done at whatever standard temperature has been defined.


----------



## Tom-HK

Hans Moleman said:


> Witschi sells professional timing machines. No doubt the service center has a few.
> 
> I don't think you can be sure that the movement can be re-regulated. They may be burned in for life, and your only option is a swap.
> 
> Otherwise you need to be very specific with your requirements. What temperature you want it regulated against.


I have yet to see a Witschi machine that can tell whether a 10 SPY watch is off by 3 or 4 SPY over a ten-minute test, even with the GPS module.

As for having a watch regulated according to the user's requirements or according to the user's performance report, well wouldn't that be nice thing? It's exactly what used to happen, of course. An owner would pop into his local watch maker's and say "my watch has been gaining a minute each week" and the watch maker could try to adjust it accordingly. Even if the watch maker's timegrapher suggested that the watch was, in fact, performing better than a minute per week he might still be minded to take the owner at his word due to positional variance and all the other factors involved in real world usage that could make the owner's watch less accurate than its static spec suggested.

Brands seem reluctant to do this anymore. And that's even if this sort of fine adjustment is even possible any more. I have been told by ETA that the DS-2 (chrono) _can_ be regulated by the brand, but of course if they have trouble defining its actual performance or measuring the required degree of change, then regulation is going to be problematic.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I have yet to see a Witschi machine that can tell whether a 10 SPY watch is off by 3 or 4 SPY over a ten-minute test, even with the GPS module.
> 
> As for having a watch regulated according to the user's requirements or according to the user's performance report, well wouldn't that be nice thing? It's exactly what used to happen, of course. An owner would pop into his local watch maker's and say "my watch has been gaining a minute each week" and the watch maker could try to adjust it accordingly. Even if the watch maker's timegrapher suggested that the watch was, in fact, performing better than a minute per week he might still be minded to take the owner at his word due to positional variance and all the other factors involved in real world usage that could make the owner's watch less accurate than its static spec suggested.
> 
> Brands seem reluctant to do this anymore. And that's even if this sort of fine adjustment is even possible any more. I have been told by ETA that the DS-2 _can_ be regulated by the brand, but if course if they have trouble defining its actual performance or measuring the required degree of change, then regulation is going to be problematic.


And my recent painful experience with two new VHPs shows that even a brand-new "very-HAQ" watch cannot be relied upon to deliver its expected performance if the user doesn't care to change their watch wearing habits to suit the manufacturer. What still astonishes me is that it was apparently preferable to simply replace watch #1 and then refund my money for watch #2 instead of attempting to regulate either of them. It will be a long time before I get suckered into the next "most accurate watch in the world" nonsense. Good luck to those who are awaiting the 1 SPY Citizen.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> And my recent painful experience with two new VHPs shows that even a brand-new "very-HAQ" watch cannot be relied upon to deliver its expected performance if the user doesn't care to change their watch wearing habits to suit the manufacturer. What still astonishes me is that it was apparently preferable to simply replace watch #1 and then refund my money for watch #2 instead of attempting to regulate either of them. It will be a long time before I get suckered into the next "most accurate watch in the world" nonsense. Good luck to those who are awaiting the 1 SPY Citizen.


I think it boils down to the fact that good competent people are scarce.
They do exist, but they're too busy with something more important.

Just replace the movement, that'll cost you $20. Rather that than having Galileo tied up for the afternoon.

But you must admit that Longines got the calibration spot on.
Alas, the temperature compensation is nothing new.

A bit of the Emperors clothes these "most accurate watches". No one dares to admit they're not


----------



## dicioccio

I recall the several experiences of the users sending their Citizens to Japan to get the watches adjusted but the result was disappointing and in fact in Japan they did essentially nothing.

I really doubt that anyone in those repair centers listens to the user and adjusts the watch according to his indications. And this is really irritating to me, especially if we talk about a 2k$ watch.

So if we apply what above on the VHP (or the Certina Precidrives) that is cheaper I am even more pessimistic !


----------



## Miguel

Hans Moleman said:


> But you must admit that Longines got the calibration spot on.
> Alas, the temperature compensation is nothing new.
> 
> A bit of the Emperors clothes these "most accurate watches". No one dares to admit they're not


Yes. My V.H.P. continues to be around 3.5 spy. Hopefully is pre-aged 

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## Hans Moleman

Miguel said:


> Yes. My V.H.P. continues to be around 3.5 spy. Hopefully is pre-aged
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Good to hear!

What would be even better is 'aged in advance'. Yes, that was cynical.

Pre-aging is the best one can do about aging. Get the worst out of the way in 3(?) months.

Aging will unfortunately continue, but not at such a dramatic rate. 1 second per year or so. It depends who you ask.

Some crystal types are notorious for their fast aging.


----------



## wbird

Hans Moleman said:


> Good to hear!
> 
> What would be even better is 'aged in advance'. Yes, that was cynical.
> 
> Pre-aging is the best one can do about aging. Get the worst out of the way in 3(?) months.
> 
> Aging will unfortunately continue, but not at such a dramatic rate. 1 second per year or so. It depends who you ask.
> 
> Some crystal types are notorious for their fast aging.


I'm curious what quartz crystals types and cuts "are notorious for their fast aging?" Would try to avoid them if i could.

As far as I know the only explanation for aging is impurities and gas bubbles in the crystal that release or distort the crystal over time. In other words all quartz watches are subject to aging equally just a function of the quality of the manufacturing process.


----------



## watchhimgo

Mine says hello!


----------



## VoxVirtus

watchhimgo said:


> Mine says hello!
> 
> View attachment 13343263


Does your seconds hand line-up on the marks? And does the strap have micro adjustment? Thanks!

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## VoxVirtus

Relo60 said:


> Good early Tuesday morning. Checking in before turning in with my DS2
> 
> View attachment 13121227


I'm asking this question to multiple ds-2 owners because seems to be luck of the draw... Does your seconds hand line-up with the dashes?

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## Miguel

dicioccio said:


> I recall the several experiences of the users sending their Citizens to Japan to get the watches adjusted but the result was disappointing and in fact in Japan they did essentially nothing.
> 
> I really doubt that anyone in those repair centers listens to the user and adjusts the watch according to his indications. And this is really irritating to me, especially if we talk about a 2k$ watch.
> 
> So if we apply what above on the VHP (or the Certina Precidrives) that is cheaper I am even more pessimistic !


Hi,

About that, I had that very experience. I sent my Exceed to HIGUCHI who dealt with Citizen Japan. It is to early to have to really appreciate the overall accuracy, but so far (only 7 days) the rate is 15.64 spy, down from the around 30 spy before the service (without wearing). I will report when I have a more extended period of time.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## gh0stleader

VoxVirtus said:


> I'm asking this question to multiple ds-2 owners because seems to be luck of the draw... Does your seconds hand line-up with the dashes?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


Looking forward to the reply.

I wanna pick up one of those but I hate when the second hand flings past the markers...

- - - Updated - - -



VoxVirtus said:


> I'm asking this question to multiple ds-2 owners because seems to be luck of the draw... Does your seconds hand line-up with the dashes?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


Looking forward to the reply.

I wanna pick up one of those but I hate when the second hand flings past the markers...


----------



## Miguel

Hello,

Is the end of a four week period and I found it interesting. During these four weeks I worn Titanium every day around 12 hours per day. Reverse Panda was left completely unworn. In the graphic the corresponding bars are indicated in green for Titanium and grey for Reverse Panda.

Titanium









Reverse Panda









So, Titanium seems to be doing a better job at compensating but of course it is 2.5 over the expected accuracy. Reverse Panda is thankfully into the expected accuracy but not wearing it had an immediate impact jumping from 7.5 to 9 spy.

Other observation: Titanium accelerated while wearing it. Reverse Panda accelerated while not wearing it.

I know it is normal, but it is still incredible to see that no movement is made the same: you will find that any small difference in their building process will impact the behaviour of the exact same caliber.

I will check with my local Swatch Service Center if the watch (Titanium) can be recalibrated. I think this was discussed in this thread or another one, I do not remember.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## gh0stleader

love the SS version of these.

I've got the red/black rubber strap version and love it, but damn, the SS version looks so clean.


----------



## VoxVirtus

Hey Miguel,

Do the seconds hand on yours line-up to the dashes?


Miguel said:


> Hello,
> 
> Is the end of a four week period and I found it interesting. During these four weeks I worn Titanium every day around 12 hours per day. Reverse Panda was left completely unworn. In the graphic the corresponding bars are indicated in green for Titanium and grey for Reverse Panda.
> 
> Titanium
> 
> View attachment 13406443
> 
> 
> Reverse Panda
> 
> View attachment 13406449
> 
> 
> So, Titanium seems to be doing a better job at compensating but of course it is 2.5 over the expected accuracy. Reverse Panda is thankfully into the expected accuracy but not wearing it had an immediate impact jumping from 7.5 to 9 spy.
> 
> Other observation: Titanium accelerated while wearing it. Reverse Panda accelerated while not wearing it.
> 
> I know it is normal, but it is still incredible to see that no movement is made the same: you will find that any small difference in their building process will impact the behaviour of the exact same caliber.
> 
> I will check with my local Swatch Service Center if the watch (Titanium) can be recalibrated. I think this was discussed in this thread or another one, I do not remember.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## Miguel

VoxVirtus said:


> Hey Miguel,
> 
> Do the seconds hand on yours line-up to the dashes?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


Hi,

Both second hands: the small for time and the one for the chronograph line-up with the markers in both chronographs. I had and finally sold a DS-2 non-chrono and in that one, the seconds hand did not lined with the marks (in some yes, in others no), very similar to other quartz watches I own. The Chronos (Titanium and Reverse Panda) do not have that problem.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## VoxVirtus

Miguel said:


> Hi,
> 
> Both second hands: the small for time and the one for the chronograph line-up with the markers in both chronographs. I have and finally sold a DS-2 non-chrono and in that one, the seconds hand did not lined with the marks(in some yes, in others no), very similar of other quartz watches I own. The Chronos (Titanium and Reverse Panda) do not have that problem.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Thank you for the reply. Was looking to buy the non-Chrono, but so many pictures online appear misalignment. I'm new to watches... have quartz always had this issue? Or is it recent phenomena? Seems hard to believe anyone would produce a watch that doesn't align, as if fashion is taking priority.

P.s. appreciate your HAQ tracking.

Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## Miguel

VoxVirtus said:


> Thank you for the reply. Was looking to buy the non-Chrono, but so many pictures online appear misalignment. I'm new to watches... have quartz always had this issue? Or is it recent phenomena? Seems hard to believe anyone would produce a watch that doesn't align, as if fashion is taking priority.
> 
> P.s. appreciate your HAQ tracking.
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


I have 4 Citizen watches (two HAQs, two simple quartz), unfortunately not yet a Seiko quartz. All four of them show perfect alignment with the markers. The order one of them is already 27 years old. If Japaneses could do this since that time, I do not understand why Swiss Manufacturers cannot do the same. I think they are too concentrated in their mechanical watches that surely are more profitable. With the Certina chronos and the Longines VHP, they seam to recognize this niche market can be also profitable, perhaps...


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## chris01

Miguel said:


> I have 4 Citizen watches (two HAQs, two simple quartz), unfortunately not yet a Seiko quartz. All four of them show perfect alignment with the markers. The order one of them is already 27 years old. If Japaneses could do this since that time, I do not understand why Swiss Manufacturers cannot do the same. I think they are too concentrated in their mechanical watches that surely are more profitable. With the Certina chronos and the Longines VHP, they seam to recognize this niche market can be also profitable, perhaps...


There is a general difference between the ETA (Certina and earlier Longines) and Japanese (Citizen and Casio/Oceanus). The Swiss watches use a single stepping motor to drive the seconds hand and then, through gears, to drive the minutes and hours hands. This gives rise to positioning error due to wear and backlash. The Japanese tend to use multiple motors and less gearing, so that each hand is better controlled.


----------



## VoxVirtus

Miguel said:


> I have 4 Citizen watches (two HAQs, two simple quartz), unfortunately not yet a Seiko quartz. All four of them show perfect alignment with the markers. The order one of them is already 27 years old. If Japaneses could do this since that time, I do not understand why Swiss Manufacturers cannot do the same. I think they are too concentrated in their mechanical watches that surely are more profitable. With the Certina chronos and the Longines VHP, they seam to recognize this niche market can be also profitable, perhaps...


In fact, my new Citizen that I had sent in for misaligned seconds just arrived after chatting with you. This is my first watch in 20yrs, and I'm happy they corrected it 

And this is inspite of an Omega/Automatic wearing friend saying I shouldn't expect alignment from a cheap quartz, and I'm way too OCD. Sorry, no 

I'll be using WatchCheck app to chart its accuracy cycle starting today, then try to add a HAQ piece soon. I too am saving up for a Seiko Quartz.

-JG








Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## Miguel

Well, I took the decision to take Titanium to my local Swatch Service Center. I brought a print-out of the data and graph to show them the behaviour so far. They were very cordial and interested and asked me to explain the information, then the technician took the watch to check the movement. 15 minutes later, he came back and told me the movement was defective and they will change it and do a full service to the watch. Since it is under warranty, it won't cost a penny. Now, it is just a matter of waiting around 4 weeks and see by myself how good this service is. Let's see what happens....

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## VoxVirtus

Good info, thank you.


Miguel said:


> Well, I took the decision to take Titanium to my local Swatch Service Center. I brought a print-out of the data and graph to show them the behaviour so far. They were very cordial and interested and asked me to explain the information, then the technician took the watch to check the movement. 15 minutes later, he came back and told me the movement was defective and they will change it and do a full service to the watch. Since it is under warranty, it won't cost a penny. Now, it is just a matter of waiting around 4 weeks and see by myself how good this service is. Let's see what happens....
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


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## gh0stleader

Any updates Miguel?


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## Miguel

Not yet. it is at least 4 weeks for a repair. I will wait patiently


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## MrBacon

Really good performer. Panda is a looker









Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


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## Miguel

gh0stleader said:


> Any updates Miguel?


Hello,

I went to the Swatch Service Center yesterday to get my DS 2 Titanium. Supposedly they changed the movement. I already set the watch and started tracking the accuracy. Let's see if I got lucky. At least, since it is still under warranty I paid nothing and I have another 24 month of warranty. I really hope it was fixed. I love the Panda but this is the one I prefer.

Cheers,

Miguel


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## Miguel

Hello Everyone,

Posted on the wrong thread, but now here it is.

Here are some results after 23 days since the repair, for my DS-2 Chrono Titanium. For now, no wear whatsoever. Seems promising:









Cheers,

Miguel.


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## watchcrank_tx

For those who haven't seen, Ashford has a few of these, green accents on synthetic, for $249 on their Ebay store right now. They are purportedly store display models and won't come with a factory warranty, and I doubt - though do not know from experience - that Ashford's one year guarantee will cover the watch running to specification. Nonetheless, I suspect that like most of these watches, they won't stray terribly far outside spec, and I thought it a good enough performance and risk for the price to buy a pair as Christmas gifts for people who will benefit from HAQ but probably won't obsess over spy like we do here. They have three left as of now.


----------



## MrBacon

Honestly, these are excellent buys. Agreed with previous poster, Ashford haa the green (and I've seen a few red ones in the past) for below 300.

I bought the panda LNIB for 300 and it's fantastic. Domed sapphire, HAQ, decently lumed, polished center links if that's your thing. Looks great on leather. 

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## watchcrank_tx

watchcrank said:


> For those who haven't seen, Ashford has a few of these, green accents on synthetic, for $249 on their Ebay store right now. They are purportedly store display models and won't come with a factory warranty, and I doubt - though do not know from experience - that Ashford's one year guarantee will cover the watch running to specification. Nonetheless, I suspect that like most of these watches, they won't stray terribly far outside spec, and I thought it a good enough performance and risk for the price to buy a pair as Christmas gifts for people who will benefit from HAQ but probably won't obsess over spy like we do here. They have three left as of now.


These arrived with no signs of prior wear and with QR codes still on the back, not bad for $239 apiece (I was $10 high in what I said above). I'll set them and then track them for a few weeks. Unless they're drifting far faster than spec, I'll go ahead and wrap them up for Christmas late this month.


----------



## Ouji

Certina DS / Urban / Caimano (?) / C035.410.XX.XXX.XX
Did someone check these ones out? Found nothing on the forum via search. These seem to be new models, reasonably sized and reasonably priced.
I made a picture with some of them:


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## Novi

watchcrank said:


> These arrived with no signs of prior wear and with QR codes still on the back, not bad for $239 apiece (I was $10 high in what I said above). I'll set them and then track them for a few weeks. Unless they're drifting far faster than spec, I'll go ahead and wrap them up for Christmas late this month.
> 
> View attachment 13609613


This is $219 at Ashford now on Black Friday-deal, so it's a xmas-wish I handed over to the wife. Got signals that it'll come through 

But when ordering from Ashford, has anyone gotten a piece with wear? I've only bought there once before, and view them as a solid vendor.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Novi said:


> This is $219 at Ashford now on Black Friday-deal, so it's a xmas-wish I handed over to the wife. Got signals that it'll come through
> 
> But when ordering from Ashford, has anyone gotten a piece with wear? I've only bought there once before, and view them as a solid vendor.


Neither of the pair I recently received had any apparent wear, and in fact both still have the QR code sticker on the back. One of the two does have the date wheel off-center enough in the date window to be annoying. I'm checking with Ashford to see if it's something they will warrant. Being gray market, and with date mechanism adjustment perhaps beyond the level of intervention their watchmakers are used to (I don't know one way or another), perhaps they won't, and at the price I don't know I'll mind terribly much. If it had come from an AD, however, it would already be back with Swatch for repair.

Edit to add photos:

Here's the view at an angle not terribly atypical from that of a watch worn on the left wrist. First, the red-accented model I bought years back from an AD in Spain:









Now the one with the date off-center to the left:









If Ashford can't or won't repair the problem, I'll give the one with the off-center date to my left handed brother who wears even right-pusher chronos on his right wrist. It might even be an improvement for him when viewing the date at a typical wrist angle.

Both of these watches are (of course) keeping beautiful time, and even without knowing yet what Ashford will make of the problem, I'm not sure if I were you that I'd let my experience put you off of picking one up at the $219 price. Worst case, inspect it carefully prior to wearing, and if it's not up to snuff, return it. Return window for "certified pre-owned" is brief (only 14 days). I was aware of this and chose to take the gamble of keeping it and working on an Ashford warranty repair if needed, but your relative risk tolerance may be different.


----------



## c-son

How do you like the original rubber strap of the DS-2? I have owned several watches that initially came on a rubber strap, never been a big fan them and even though I would often prefer the case integrated look of the manufacturer's original rubber strap, it is the discomfort of wearing one that almost always drives me towards replacing one with a nice aftermarket leather strap. Problem about it for me with is that is that - unlike a leather strap - a rubber strap never really breaks in, so it's a hit or miss if its form will fit the shape of my relatively wide wrist or not. 

I am asking because I just ordered one of the CPO green ones on a rubber strap and I have not yet seen this aspect about DS-2 strap options being discussed here in the forum. Quite likely I will anyway change it to a leather strap, but I would also like to buy a bracelet option if I can find one for a reasonable price, new or used.


----------



## RC65

Can someone with more knowledge of this particular HAQ chronograph watch tell me if Certina periodically introduces new color offerings? I've seen this watch in both the red and green shown below, as well as a yellow and a black, but not in blue...and I'm trying to scratch my itch for a blue (or, at least, with blue accents) HAQ chronograph without stepping up to the new(ish) blue Longines VHP Chronograph that I lust over but can't quite swing at the moment.



watchcrank said:


> Neither of the pair I recently received had any apparent wear, and in fact both still have the QR code sticker on the back. One of the two does have the date wheel off-center enough in the date window to be annoying. I'm checking with Ashford to see if it's something they will warrant. Being gray market, and with date mechanism adjustment perhaps beyond the level of intervention their watchmakers are used to (I don't know one way or another), perhaps they won't, and at the price I don't know I'll mind terribly much. If it had come from an AD, however, it would already be back with Swatch for repair.
> 
> Edit to add photos:
> 
> Here's the view at an angle not terribly atypical from that of a watch worn on the left wrist. First, the red-accented model I bought years back from an AD in Spain:
> 
> View attachment 13668823
> 
> 
> Now the one with the date off-center to the left:
> 
> View attachment 13668825
> 
> 
> If Ashford can't or won't repair the problem, I'll give the one with the off-center date to my left handed brother who wears even right-pusher chronos on his right wrist. It might even be an improvement for him when viewing the date at a typical wrist angle.
> 
> Both of these watches are (of course) keeping beautiful time, and even without knowing yet what Ashford will make of the problem, I'm not sure if I were you that I'd let my experience put you off of picking one up at the $219 price. Worst case, inspect it carefully prior to wearing, and if it's not up to snuff, return it. Return window for "certified pre-owned" is brief (only 14 days). I was aware of this and chose to take the gamble of keeping it and working on an Ashford warranty repair if needed, but your relative risk tolerance may be different.


----------



## gh0stleader

Mine is not center aligned. Wondering if it's even worth reaching out to Swatch.


----------



## chris01

*Certina DS-2 Update*

The original battery has just died, but more on that later. I've had this watch since November 2013, when I started this thread, and I thought a mini review would give some perspective on my initial assessment.

Let's start with performance. The watch has been beyond criticism. For the last three years, 2016-2018, it has run at +5.7, +6.3 and +7.7, respectively, and started 2019 at around +6.5 SPY. This is comfortably within the user manual specification of "around +/-10 seconds per year under normal conditions of use", as I wear this watch more than any other. There has been only one oddity, when it suddenly lost 45 (I think) seconds overnight. I reset the watch and have never seen anything similar. It appears that this PreciDrive movement cannot be regulated by the end-user, only by Swatch services (if even that is possible). Slowing it by 4 SPY really would make it a super performer.

I seem to have been rather lucky in the build quality, or Certina QC has deteriorated since the watch was launched, as I have had none of the issues reported by later buyers. The hands all hit the markers perfectly (to the naked eye) and I have seen no problems with hands becoming misaligned. The perfectly adequate user manual describes the process for realigning the chrono hands, and I have only had to do this once - on the day the watch arrived.

Usability is pretty good, although I would repeat my original criticism of the chrono. The 1/100 sec hand seems more of a "look what I can do with PowerDrive" feature than a useful complication; it causes more problems than it can ever solve. In order to read a time to the nearest 10 mS you have to read four separate registers and then assemble a final total, a process that a cheap, simple digital chrono will do instantly. The two centre chrono hands (1 sec and 1/100 sec) are the same colour, almost the same length, and only distinguished by a small circle embedded in one of them. Which one, is something you have to try to remember when reading the elapsed time. None of that is too important for only casual use of the chrono. However, the presence of the 1/100 marking around the outside of the dial indirectly causes a very annoying effect. The 1/100 hand points correctly to this scale, and the 1 sec hand aligns with the hour/minute scale inside. For some bizarre reason the running minute hand extends to the 1/100 scale, overlapping its own minute scale, and making it quite difficult to read the time to the nearest minute. Making it 3 mm shorter would have been OK, but perhaps a 'designer' thought it should reach the outside scale. Overall, not Certina's finest hour (or minute or second).

Wearability is very good. This is currently my heaviest and, excepting my Citizen GPS, my largest watch and it's perfectly comfortable for daily wear. I can't fault it.

I commented some time ago on the large, polished steel bracelet centre links. The smallest scratch on these instantly hits you in the eye. I brushed the entire bracelet, giving a finish that seemed more suited to the watch. It still gets small scratches but you now have to look for them. I will continue to maintain the new finish.

Now the battery. The watch came direct from Certina via my AD so the Renata 394 battery would have been fresh. At the end of January 2019, after 5 years and 3 months, the watch started to lose time. There was no indication of this, other than the accurately measured daily rate. Between its peak in January and the end of February the total loss was 0.4 seconds, so only an HAQ fanatic would be aware of it. This loss continued to accelerate, and reached -5.2 seconds by early June. Then, at last, the promised EOL indication arrived (4-second jumps), and it became impossible to time the watch by eye. Also, the chrono ceased to operate. This lasted for 87 days, when the watch finally stopped. The totals were 5 years 3 months of normal running, 4 months of slowing down, and 87 days of EOL. The bit in the middle is rather annoying, as it is easily missed until it's too late. Also, the very extended EOL period (I was expecting maybe one or two weeks) is extraordinary. However, if one takes the view that a 5-year life is very respectable for a small silver oxide battery that can be routinely and cheaply changed every 5th anniversary, I guess it's fairly OK.

Overall, with some minor issues, I have found this watch to be attractive, wearable, reliable and accurate. Considering its price - £444, delivered to the UK from a Spanish AD, in 2013 - it has been great value for money. Would I buy another? With some caution regarding QC, yes, probably the titanium model.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Chris,

First, great review and summary. It was your posts which led me to buy my own, which I still consider among my best watches, and later to buy one for my father. I remain very grateful for the information you have posted here.

I'm still on the original battery, but it recently went into EOL ticking, and the chrono stopped. Is there anything unexpected involved in a battery change? I've never yet opened the case of mine.



chris01 said:


> The 1/100 sec hand seems more of a "look what I can do with PowerDrive" feature than a useful complication; it causes more problems than it can ever solve.


The utility I find in it may not be found by many others, but to me it very useful. Not as a display of 1/100th second precision - for whose nervous system and fingers can be remotely that quick and accurate? - but simply as a rough pie-chart display of the amount of a second consumed.

In particular, it has proven ideal to me in viewing gaps between racing cars from one lap to the next, to the point I now consider this watch indispensable at an auto race and wouldn't consider wearing any other chrono. (I find it useful in other situations as well, of course, but that one is the stand-out.)



chris01 said:


> The two centre chrono hands (1 sec and 1/100 sec) are the same colour, almost the same length, and only distinguished by a small circle embedded in one of them.


I'd never considered that, but now that you mention it, I am glad to have bought the color accented versions: my 1/100th second hand is red; my father's is green.



chris01 said:


> For some bizarre reason the running minute hand extends to the 1/100 scale, overlapping its own minute scale, and making it quite difficult to read the time to the nearest minute. Making it 3 mm shorter would have been OK, but perhaps a 'designer' thought it should reach the outside scale.


Indeed, it is bizarre and counterfunctional.

I also dislike chrono seconds tails that overlap running seconds displays, making the latter hard to hack at the top of the minute. In many other chronos with this problem, the chrono can be run briefly to move the chrono seconds hand's tail out of the way, but on this one, we have to move past the first crown position - which resets the seconds hand to zero (according to my recollection at least - can't verify now because of the low battery), before we can hack the watch, so that is impossible. Further, being quartz, the tail is larger than it would be on a mechanical to provide a greater counterweight, exacerbating the problem. I would have much preferred a split tail or an open circle as a tail, on both the central chrono hands.

The minutes hand is wide enough at least to make hacking at 30 seconds instead of 0 feasible without getting the minute terribly misaligned.

In the end, these are small complaints about a great watch. Thanks again for putting me onto it years ago!


----------



## chris01

watchcrank said:


> Chris,
> 
> First, great review and summary. It was your posts which led me to buy my own, which I still consider among my best watches, and later to buy one for my father. I remain very grateful for the information you have posted here.
> 
> I'm still on the original battery, but it recently went into EOL ticking, and the chrono stopped. Is there anything unexpected involved in a battery change? I've never yet opened the case of mine.
> 
> The utility I find in it may not be found by many others, but to me it very useful. Not as a display of 1/100th second precision - for whose nervous system and fingers can be remotely that quick and accurate? - but simply as a rough pie-chart display of the amount of a second consumed.
> 
> In particular, it has proven ideal to me in viewing gaps between racing cars from one lap to the next, to the point I now consider this watch indispensable at an auto race and wouldn't consider wearing any other chrono. (I find it useful in other situations as well, of course, but that one is the stand-out.)
> 
> I'd never considered that, but now that you mention it, I am glad to have bought the color accented versions: my 1/100th second hand is red; my father's is green.
> 
> Indeed, it is bizarre and counterfunctional.
> 
> I also dislike chrono seconds tails that overlap running seconds displays, making the latter hard to hack at the top of the minute. In many other chronos with this problem, the chrono can be run briefly to move the chrono seconds hand's tail out of the way, but on this one, we have to move past the first crown position - which resets the seconds hand to zero (according to my recollection at least - can't verify now because of the low battery), before we can hack the watch, so that is impossible. Further, being quartz, the tail is larger than it would be on a mechanical to provide a greater counterweight, exacerbating the problem. I would have much preferred a split tail or an open circle as a tail, on both the central chrono hands.
> 
> The minutes hand is wide enough at least to make hacking at 30 seconds instead of 0 feasible without getting the minute terribly misaligned.
> 
> In the end, these are small complaints about a great watch. Thanks again for putting me onto it years ago!


Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your kind remarks. I'd be interested to know whether you've had some of the QC issues that seem to afflict more recent watches.

Regarding the battery, it's not much of a problem. I found it easiest to completely remove one of the end links, giving easy access for a case knife at either 6 or 12, and a clear view when the back is off. Then just slacken the two battery clip screws so it can pivot out at the side marked with an arrow. If you manage to unscrew one completely it will go 'flyabout'. 

After reassembly you'll likely need to reset the chrono hands, so have the instructions ready.

It's really a damn fine watch, especially as it's one of the very few PreciDrives with an IAHH. The new VHP is an even better ETA calibre with its PC, but price and dubious accuracy claims rather let it down.

Chris.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chris01 said:


> I'd be interested to know whether you've had some of the QC issues that seem to afflict more recent watches.


Chris,

Thanks for the tips on the battery change. |> Will plan to tackle it later this month when I expect to have some free time. I'm sure it's not a big deal in the end, but I'm strongly averse to messing anything up on one of my very favorite watches so will take more time and care than I'd spend on a lesser watch.

My records say mine was bought in early 2015 (later than my faulty memory had thought), from the Spanish AD to whom you referred me, and it has no particular QC problems that I ever noted. (And was not a bracelet model, so I won't have to remove that to pop the back. In those days, I was not the bracelet fan that I have gradually become over time.)

I do know however of problems like those you mention. My father's is a gray market watch I bought last year, along with another I had intended to give to my brother. My father's watch seems fine. The date wheel of what was to be my brother's watch however was noticeably off-center, to the point where someone who wears a watch on the right wrist like my brother does (and as I generally do, though not for chronos with right-hand controls) would see a clipped date:








Here in comparison is my watch, whose date is centered correctly, seen at the same angle:








I really should have photographed these on a 1N date, as depending on the angle, the 1 would be more completely clipped on the green watch, lending rather more ambiguity to the date than one who relies on it might be prepared to accept.

About the time I was debating what to do with the problem watch, my brother happened to mention that he hardly wore a watch anymore, so I ended up sending that one back.

Of all the parts of a movement - quartz or mechanical - that which I've studied the least and know the least about is the date mechanism, so I'm not sure why it should have been so poorly centered or if it was something a competent watchmaker could have fixed (the gray market seller said their watchmakers could not fix it - though I have no way of knowing if those I dealt with ever actually spoke to their watchmakers about it - and in any case it was within their standards, though they readily took it back and paid shipping, so all ended well). I would have thought that a properly printed date wheel with properly cut detents would have been nearly impossible to place anywhere but in the center of its window, but either I'm wrong or else one of the two instances of "properly" in question were not fulfilled.

As matters stand for me and mine, my father has a great watch out of the gray market, and I have a great one from an AD, but - especially in light of later reports - whenever anyone buys one of these, they should inspect and test it thoroughly and send it back if there are any problems. A trouble free Precidrive chrono though is a watch that I believe can hold down a slot in any collection.


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## tmathes

I had to replace the battery in my DS-8 a few months ago, it has what appears to be the same case design as my DS-2, the case notches between the lugs. I used this tool to open the DS-8:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-Watc...er-Pry-Tool-Made-in-JAPAN-3Sizes/233146540407

I used the S-282 model, the DS-8 case was vastly easier to open that expected and I didn't need to remove the strap. I found the Seiko opener a bit easier to use with this case than my first attempt with a Bergeon 6987 case knife.

If the case back on the DS-2 is like the DS-8 you'll find the O-ring is, for lack of a better term, "embedded" around the perimeter of the back. It didn't appear to be the typical black rubber gasket that's easy to replace, this thing was colored red and was kind of thick. It looked to be some kind of plastic/urethane material and it allowed the case to opened so easily at first I didn't realize I had opened the case since I never felt a snap nor pop.

It also was easy (maybe too easy) to snap the case back together, I think the gasket design might have been part of the reason why. It didn't snap back together like I'm used to, it had a dull click and I had to carefully look around the case back to make sure it was closed. It's definitely a different design compared to the snap back cases on my other watches.


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> I had to replace the battery in my DS-8 a few months ago, it has what appears to be the same case design as my DS-2, the case notches between the lugs. I used this tool to open the DS-8:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/SEIKO-Watc...er-Pry-Tool-Made-in-JAPAN-3Sizes/233146540407
> 
> I used the S-282 model, the DS-8 case was vastly easier to open that expected and I didn't need to remove the strap. I found the Seiko opener a bit easier to use with this case than my first attempt with a Bergeon 6987 case knife.
> 
> If the case back on the DS-2 is like the DS-8 you'll find the O-ring is, for lack of a better term, "embedded" around the perimeter of the back. It didn't appear to be the typical black rubber gasket that's easy to replace, this thing was colored red and was kind of thick. It looked to be some kind of plastic/urethane material and it allowed the case to opened so easily at first I didn't realize I had opened the case since I never felt a snap nor pop.
> 
> It also was easy (maybe too easy) to snap the case back together, I think the gasket design might have been part of the reason why. It didn't snap back together like I'm used to, it had a dull click and I had to carefully look around the case back to make sure it was closed. It's definitely a different design compared to the snap back cases on my other watches.


Mine opened easily with the case blade on my Wenger Minathor watchmaker's knife. The red gasket was the same, quite thick and rigid. After applying some silicone, it didn't look too safe to just push the back on. I fitted the gasket around the flange on the case back and it pushed back together with not much pressure, but a clear 'click'. Perhaps the engraved DS-2 turtle has special powers. Not a big deal anyway for me as I never get my watches properly wet.


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Mine opened easily with the case blade on my Wenger Minathor watchmaker's knife. The red gasket was the same, quite thick and rigid. After applying some silicone, it didn't look too safe to just push the back on. I fitted the gasket around the flange on the case back and it pushed back together with not much pressure, but a clear 'click'. Perhaps the engraved DS-2 turtle has special powers. Not a big deal anyway for me as I never get my watches properly wet.


I didn't remove the gasket since it seemed embedded in the groove of the case back closing bead/lip (for lack of a better term). It didn't look to be designed to be removed unless being replaced so just left it in place. I figured removing it would stretch it.

Mine's the titanium version, that might explain the different sounds when going on/off. Either way, mine wasn't difficult to take off and a bit too easy to snap back in place in particular (that's always the hard part in my experience). Never had a watch that was so free of 'draaama'. :-d


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## jkpa

If anybody knows where I can source the silver/red accented 125th anniversary model, please let me know.


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## ronalddheld

jkpa said:


> If anybody knows where I can source the silver/red accented 125th anniversary model, please let me know.


Respond by PM, please.


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## ronalddheld

jkpa said:


> If anybody knows where I can source the silver/red accented 125th anniversary model, please let me know.


Respond by PM, please.


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## Sabresoft

Hi Chris. It’s been a while since I have been on the forum. Life and parenting an 8 year old grandchild just got in the way. I bought my DS from the same Spanish vendor that you recommended and have been very happy with it. I think that I replaced the battery a year or two ago. It keeps great time, and while I have been spending less time wearing my battery models in preference for my solar charged ones, this watch still is included in my rotation. I used to change the watch model daily, and then it slipped to weekly changes. Now it is more likely to be 2 weeks to a month. I have 9 solar (including 6 RC, 2 satellite), 5 haq battery models, 3 non-haq battery and 4 automatics. Other than my Campanolo I don’t generally wear my non-haq battery models much, and even that one is infrequent. The haqs get more action, but mostly the Certina, Breitling and Sinn. Right now the Sinn is awaiting a trip to Germany for battery replacement.


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## jkpa

I found it. BNIB at a Dutch AD. Over the moon! Had the black/green and sold it.

This is my White Whale 



I look forward to tracking its accuracy.


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## ocieb

jkpa said:


> I found it. BNIB at a Dutch AD. Over the moon! Had the black/green and sold it.
> 
> This is my White Whale
> 
> 
> 
> I look forward to tracking its accuracy.


wow very cool watch!


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## BrianBinFL

I'm not that into quartz watches, but I've been wanting to add an HAQ to the watch box for a while now. A while back I was at a friend's house and showed him a couple YouTube videos about the Certina DS-2 Precidrive Chronograph. He thought it looked really nice for a Swiss brand he'd never heard of. So I went over there last night to hang out, watch episodes, and his wife also made dinner - bonus. He hands me this box. I open it. He bought me the watch. Very nice global pandemic gift I guess. 

So this morning I used the video method to check the sync against my live-data GPS clock (resolution of tenths of a second and accurate to 100 microseconds) and it looks like I've got the watch set right at 0.1 seconds fast. So that's my starting sync. I'll give it 90 days and then I'll check the sync again and see how it has done.

I was able to get a really good sizing on the bracelet by taking out one full and one partial link. Seems to fit well. The bracelet is not as comfortable as some, but not as bad as some others. I'd expect that in the 21st century there aren't any secrets left about how to make a comfortable bracelet, but I guess I'd be wrong.

I've also been looking at a Longines HAQ chronograph but for the moment I'm good with this Certina - and I can't beat the price.


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## Nolander

Great looking watch (and friend who got it for you).


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## watchcrank_tx

Nice gift! Congratulations on the watch and on having generous friends. b-)



BrianBinFL said:


> I've also been looking at a Longines HAQ chronograph


Curious what this one was. I didn't know Longines made one. Current model or vintage?


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## BrianBinFL

watchcrank_tx said:


> Curious what this one was. I didn't know Longines made one. Current model or vintage?


It is this one - a current model.


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## watchcrank_tx

BrianBinFL said:


> It is this one - a current model.


Nice, thanks! |> I've evidently not kept up with the VHP variants.


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## BrianBinFL

In case anybody is considering purchasing this watch and is curious about accuracy I figured I'd post my first sync check results.

After 18 days the watch has gained 0.166 seconds. If the watch were to keep gaining at the same rate it would gain about 3.37 seconds over the course of a whole year. Needless to say this is very good accuracy since the watch is rated for "around +/- 10 seconds per year". 

I'm very pleased with the accuracy thus far. I'll post an update now and again whenever I check it.

For those that are curious my sync checks are done using the video method against a live-data GPS clock that is accurate to 100 microseconds.


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## nyonya

I've been looking at the DS-2 chronos and have run into a strange question - is there no reference for the red accents version in steel on bracelet? Seems like only the titanium red accents version comes on a bracelet. Why would this be I wonder?

Also, any better source for these in the US than Jomashop at the moment? Thanks!


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## tmathes

nyonya said:


> I've been looking at the DS-2 chronos and have run into a strange question - is there no reference for the red accents version in steel on bracelet? Seems like only the titanium red accents version comes on a bracelet. Why would this be I wonder?
> 
> Also, any better source for these in the US than Jomashop at the moment? Thanks!


Certina is not sold to any ADs in the US, it's pretty much a Europe-only brand. Check their web site, they only list a Swiss dealer that will ship to the US.

You'll have to go gray market if you buy on-line from a US retailer or else do what I did, buy from a European AD that ships to the US. If you do some searching you'll find some other gray market retailers that sell some Certina models but it's not easy to find it in the US.

As to your other question, you'd have to ask Certina marketeers.  I have the DS-2 in titanium but often wear it on an aftermarket black with red stitch strap. On the Certina web site they seem to have also eliminated a lot of the strap options.


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## nyonya

tmathes said:


> Certina is not sold to any ADs in the US, it's pretty much a Europe-only brand. Check their web site, they only list a Swiss dealer that will ship to the US.
> 
> You'll have to go gray market if you buy on-line from a US retailer or else do what I did, buy from a European AD that ships to the US. If you do some searching you'll find some other gray market retailers that sell some Certina models but it's not easy to find it in the US.
> 
> As to your other question, you'd have to ask Certina marketeers.  I have the DS-2 in titanium but often wear it on an aftermarket black with red stitch strap. On the Certina web site they seem to have also eliminated a lot of the strap options.


Thanks, that all seems right. Any recommendations of European ADs that ship over the pond?


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## ronalddheld

nyonya said:


> Thanks, that all seems right. Any recommendations of European ADs that ship over the pond?


Respond via PM, please.


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## tmathes

ronalddheld said:


> Respond via PM, please.


Understood Ron. Will do.


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## nyonya

I know this is a long shot, but if anyone has the DS-2 chrono in steel and doesn't use their bracelet could you PM me? I'd really prefer the red accent model but it's not available on a bracelet...


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## Weiman

I felt a sudden craving for something Speedmaster-ish, so today I added a DS-2 to my Certina collection.
Very nice watch. I especially like the colors (well..) and the convex glass that it has in common with the DS First Ceramic. The clasp will take a bit of getting used to though.
From old to new:


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## bombaywalla

Weiman said:


> I felt a sudden craving for something Speedmaster-ish, so today I added a DS-2 to my Certina collection.
> Very nice watch. I especially like the colors (well..) and the convex glass that it has in common with the DS First Ceramic. The clasp will take a bit of getting used to though.
> From old to new:
> View attachment 15566400
> View attachment 15566401


oh yeah!! I like this particular model too. The grey dial (like yours) is the one to get. the black dial is "meh". I believe these are +/- 20 sec/year accurate?


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## dan360

How has the reliability been on these?


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## MrBacon

There is one on the market for sale, $200


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## Fishintime

My DS2 and second Certina. Love this watch.


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## Canelo

I've had my eyes on the DS2 chrono for at least two years, and now ordered one prior to Christmas after having worked quite a lot of intensive hours in my full-time job of the last eight months. Still, I'm afraid it's too big on me. I never thought this would've happened on a 41 mm diameter watch, as I've been wearing both 40 and 42 mm ones without any problems, but the lug-to-lug size of over 50 mm seems to be the culprit. Anyone care to share some honest opinions on the look in the pics below? (and yes, I'm on the quest of gaining weight no matter if I keep it or not). If if fits too big, do you know of any Certina Precidrive chronos that are a big smaller? 

Cheers.


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## Nolander

I personally think it looks completely fine. If you just posted a picture without asking if it was too big I would not have even considered a problem with size based on those pics. I am definitely not a style expert, but I am also not a fan of huge watches and yours looks good on you.


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## watchcrank_tx

It looks like a modern sports watch on your wrist - that's to say, filling the wrist rather than contained by the wrist as in sports watches of days gone by (1980s and earlier). What's important (to me, at least, and sounds like to you too) is that it doesn't overflow your wrist like many watches from the peak big-watch years (2000 to the mid-teens, with a few survivors to this day) might have.

In short, I think it looks fine. I too have a flat wrist like yours. I think if either of us had the same circumference of wrist but a rounder profile, it might be a little too big, but with your wrist shape, it's fine. Relax and enjoy!


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## tmathes

I have the Ti version of the watch you bought. One thing that'll make it look smaller is swap the bracelet for a strap. The DS2 seems to wear smaller that way (I put it on a perforated/racing style black leather with red stitching).


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## fmc000

Looks perfectly fine to me.


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## Dan.dvm

Canelo said:


> I've had my eyes on the DS2 chrono for at least two years, and now ordered one prior to Christmas after having worked quite a lot of intensive hours in my full-time job of the last eight months. Still, I'm afraid it's too big on me. I never thought this would've happened on a 41 mm diameter watch, as I've been wearing both 40 and 42 mm ones without any problems, but the lug-to-lug size of over 50 mm seems to be the culprit. Anyone care to share some honest opinions on the look in the pics below? (and yes, I'm on the quest of gaining weight no matter if I keep it or not). If if fits too big, do you know of any Certina Precidrive chronos that are a big smaller?
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> View attachment 16310829
> View attachment 16310832


Looks outstanding to me. The lugs are within the borders of your wrist, and that is in a photo (i find photos make the watch look bigger on wrist than it actually is). 

Wear with pride and no self-consciousness for a job well done!

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk


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## Canelo

Thanks a lot, folks. I'm keeping it! I do love how the second hand at the six position always seems to hit the markers bang on. It's really the small things that make the difference between a $100 chrono and a $500 one I guess. Already toying with the idea of a green Action Diver for next Christmas. 😅


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