# The best 24 watch dial ever?



## raketonosets

It is often said that 24 hour watches are hard(er) to read, and here is some truth to that, if only because of the many decades most of us spend seeing 12 hour dials before seeing our first 24 hour watch. Still, the fact that a 24 hour watch's dial 'covers' twice as many hours is, objectively, something which takes getting used to.

A well-designed and uncluttered dial goes a long way towards making this a non-issue, I think.

I am attaching two small pictures (one in low light with glowing lumes) of the best designed 24 hour dial I have ever seen, the Volmax Aviator 2623/1224830.

I would be very interested if you could post pics of the best dials in your 24 hour watch collection.

Many thanks in advance,

RN


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## razor6

I agree that the Aviator is probably the most legible 24 hour watch I have ever seen. In fact, I have one on the way.

Another one that would "tie" for this honor would be the Fortis Flieger 24-hour (albiet, no longer available and 8x the price of the Aviator):


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## raketonosets

The Flieger is very good but four things make the Aviator better, in my mind.

1) the hour number are larger on the Aviator
2) the lines showing the odd hours are longer on the Flieger which clutters the dial
3) 00:00 is indicated by a 24 and a triangle on the Flieger, whereas the Aviator only has a symbol, but a very clear and large one.
4) on the Flieger the date box is placed next the the number 6 whereas on the Aviator it *replaces* the number 12

As a result, the Russian design is simpler, less cluttered, purer.

Another difference between the two watches is that the Russian date is a conventional black figure on a white background, whereas the Flieger as a white number on a black background. I am not sure which one I prefer, nor am I sure that it makes a difference. I would have to hold a Flieger in my hand which I never have, alas.

Lastly the Flieger seems to have a lume seconds hand which the Aviator lacks. I think that this is the only feature in which the Fortis is better.

I like the Fleiger and I don't mean to diss it, but I think that the Aviator shows that small things add up to a dramatic difference.

Your thoughts?

RN

PS: when you get your Aviator, could you post a comparison for the "look and feel" of the two watches? As I said, I never held a Fortis in my hand (or on my wrist) and there are things which a photo does not show. I would be very interested in hearing how to two compare in "feeling". Thanks!


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## Dennis Smith

By your post when you say "Best ever" you're looking for form rather than beauty. For example, the Cosmoanute and Early Bird are extremely pretty and classic but I think you're goal is readability as a priority.
The Aviator and Fortis are strong contenders. 
To me, though, they promote reading 24 hour time in a more digital way (literally reading the numbers off the dial).
Of course I'm eggagerating a bit here, but trying to make a point....
I prefer a 24 hour watch that has the dial so well laid out that you can read it more intuitively, whether for the hours or the minutes.
I'm in a dark cave or submarine and just glanced at my 24 hour watch...I want to instantly get a feel of where I am in the day (day or night....only then looking closer ot see the exact hour if needed) and where the minute hand is rasting (with big markers every five, ten minutes or so.
For this reason, I like a dial with day/night and I like the hour hand and minute hand references to be distinctly separated.

Maybe like this (though the hands could be a little better for readability in terms of color and length...Photo borrowed from SeikoSickness...


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## Sean779

Dennis Smith said:


> The Aviator and Fortis are strong contenders.
> To me, though, they promote reading 24 hour time in a more digital way (literally reading the numbers off the dial).
> Of course I'm eggagerating a bit here, but trying to make a point....
> I prefer a 24 hour watch that has the dial so well laid out that you can read it more intuitively,


IMO there's no more intuitive 24 hour dial than one with noon at the top. You can literally tell at a glance the general time and if you need more precise time you simply look harder. Sun above and darkness below is very intuitive. I was glad Mitch continued Yantar's noon at the top. It's a challenge scrunching 24 numbers on to a dial, which to me is most legible, if maybe not most aesthetic. If I were to design the perfect 24 hour watch (and I'm newbie here so don't take me too seriously ), I would continue Glycine's having all 24 hours with of course noon at the top. I think Ocean7's Airnautic is a pretty remarkable achievement, but only 8 hour markers are primarily visable. But I understand the challenge in 24 numbers on a dial to be primarily visible.


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## Sean779

I bought my Doxa DS GMT because it gave me a 24 hour dial and I could arrange noon at the top. The 24 hour hand is accurate within 15 minute increments, and more accurate than that if I look harder. I'm not lauding the Doxa as the answer to 24 hour watches because it has its own impediments--the 24 hour numbers are small so it becomes a large effort to achieve a more precise time without lookng at the 12 hour dial. But still, in some ways, it's the best of two worlds.

To me, the 24 hour watch is reflective of our day/night, why I prize it.


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## raketonosets

Sean779 said:


> I'm newbie here so don't take me too seriously


That coming from a person with 1,513 posts makes me wonder how a person like myself with 5 or 6 posts should think of himself ;-)

Cheers and thanks for your posts and pics!

RN


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## Sean779

raketonosets said:


> That coming from a person with 1,513 posts makes me wonder how a person like myself with 5 or 6 posts should think of himself ;-)
> 
> Cheers and thanks for your posts and pics!
> 
> RN


I know, but I think these are my first posts in this forum. You've got 5 or 6 posts, you're 4 ahead of me :-!


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## whifferdill

Sean779 said:


> IMO there's no more intuitive 24 hour dial than one with noon at the top. You can literally tell at a glance the general time and if you need more precise time you simply look harder. Sun above and darkness below is very intuitive. I was glad Mitch continued Yantar's noon at the top. It's a challenge scrunching 24 numbers on to a dial, which to me is most legible, if maybe not most aesthetic. If I were to design the perfect 24 hour watch (and I'm newbie here so don't take me too seriously ), I would continue Glycine's having all 24 hours with of course noon at the top. I think Ocean7's Airnautic is a pretty remarkable achievement, but only 8 hour markers are primarily visable. But I understand the challenge in 24 numbers on a dial to be primarily visible.


I like noon at the top, too, for intuitive reading, and it's a big reason why I like the Airman Special II dial - even in the dark I can get a good feel for where I am in the day. The hour hand mimicks nicely the passage of the sun, especially if your facing due south! It's a really natural way of telling the time when you get used to it, but it does take a little getting used to.


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## raketonosets

Dennis Smith said:


> By your post when you say "Best ever" you're looking for form rather than beauty.


I would not necessarily oppose the two concepts. As with, say, aircraft, top capabilites often end up resulting in beautiful birds (with some exceptions, of course, like the A-10).

I don't speak for others, but I find both the Fortis and the Aviator quite beautiful, in fact.

What is true is that, at least from my point of view, esthetics should not be achieved at the expense of readability. This is also why I think that a good 24 hour watch is harder to make, and this is one of the (many) reasons why I love them so much 

Regards,

RN


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## razor6

raketonosets said:


> PS: when you get your Aviator, could you post a comparison for the "look and feel" of the two watches? As I said, I never held a Fortis in my hand (or on my wrist) and there are things which a photo does not show. I would be very interested in hearing how to two compare in "feeling". Thanks!


I don't actually own the Fortis (although I have seen one in person), so I won't be able to compare the feel of the two side by side when my Aviator comes in. Raketonosets, you do make some very good points, though. I still contend, though that both the Aviator and the Fortis are VERY uncluttered, which makes for an "easy read" for me. My only real issue I have with the Fortis is the "24" at that hour position instead of "00" or nothing at all....as in the Aviator. I love those debates that argue the correct notation at one minute past "23:59." Is it "24:00" or "00:00"????

Another note about the "12 noon at the top" version of the 24-hour dial. I also have a Glycine Airman Special II, and I specifically got one because of the "12" at the top of the dial. I love these debates about orientation also. And to each his own.

One point I had difficulty reconciling in my mind at first about the "12 noon at the top" was the argument about its comparison to the motion of the Sun. I had issue with that at first because we USUALLY read a map with North at the top of the page, and if that's true, then the "Sun" (as depicted by the hour hand's motion) is rising in the West (hour hand at 06:00 on the watch face) and setting in the East (hour hand at 18:00 on the watch face) assuming I was facing DUE NORTH when reading my watch. After all, as Wifferdill noted, it only mimics the Sun's motion if you face DUE SOUTH. Then it dawned on me; The hour hand actually mimics the SHADOW of the sun projected by a sundial if you are facing DUE NORTH in the northern hemisphere, north of the Tropic of Cancer. Now my brain was properly oriented for reading maps AND reading my 24 hour dial with "12" at the top. (Maybe people in the southern hemisphere should do the opposite).

At the end of the day (no pun intended), though I have come to the conclusion that "24" (or "00", depending on your preference) at the top is better for me intuitively. The main reason being that I use the 24 hour dial on the bezel of my Glycine to track a 2nd time zone (usually GMT, unless I am traveling) and the whole issue of "tracking the hour hand with the Sun" is thrown out the window as it relates to this 2nd time zone. In addition, the second hand starts a new minute at the top of the dial, as does the minute hand with each new hour. So it is more intuitive for me to have the hour hand of my watch mark the new day at the same location on the dial.....which is at the top. And when I really stop and think about it, Whifferdill's correct observation of having to face Due South for the "12" at the top dial to mimic the passage of the Sun, is exactly the same as facing Due North for the "24" or "00" at the top. The relative motion of the Sun is tracked by the hour hand pointing behind me (or to my South) when I face North in the Northern Hemisphere, north of the Tropic of Cancer (where I have spent 99.5% of my life). Of course, my whole argument is thrown out the window if you live in the Southern Hemisphere, south of the Tropic of Capricorn.

Now that I have confused everyone, including myself, let's just enjoy all these great 24-hour watches we have access to, and let the debates continue.........................


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## Sean779

razor6 said:


> I don't actually own the Fortis (although I have seen one in person), so I won't be able to compare the feel of the two side by side when my Aviator comes in. Raketonosets, you do make some very good points, though. I still contend, though that both the Aviator and the Fortis are VERY uncluttered, which makes for an "easy read" for me. My only real issue I have with the Fortis is the "24" at that hour position instead of "00" or nothing at all....as in the Aviator. I love those debates that argue the correct notation at one minute past "23:59." Is it "24:00" or "00:00"????
> 
> Another note about the "12 noon at the top" version of the 24-hour dial. I also have a Glycine Airman Special II, and I specifically got one because of the "12" at the top of the dial. I love these debates about orientation also. And to each his own.
> 
> One point I had difficulty reconciling in my mind at first about the "12 noon at the top" was the argument about its comparison to the motion of the Sun. I had issue with that at first because we USUALLY read a map with North at the top of the page, and if that's true, then the "Sun" (as depicted by the hour hand's motion) is rising in the West (hour hand at 06:00 on the watch face) and setting in the East (hour hand at 18:00 on the watch face) assuming I was facing DUE NORTH when reading my watch. After all, as Wifferdill noted, it only mimics the Sun's motion if you face DUE SOUTH. Then it dawned on me; The hour hand actually mimics the SHADOW of the sun projected by a sundial if you are facing DUE NORTH in the northern hemisphere, north of the Tropic of Cancer. Now my brain was properly oriented for reading maps AND reading my 24 hour dial with "12" at the top. (Maybe people in the southern hemisphere should do the opposite).
> 
> At the end of the day (no pun intended), though I have come to the conclusion that "24" (or "00", depending on your preference) at the top is better for me intuitively. The main reason being that I use the 24 hour dial on the bezel of my Glycine to track a 2nd time zone (usually GMT, unless I am traveling) and the whole issue of "tracking the hour hand with the Sun" is thrown out the window as it relates to this 2nd time zone. In addition, the second hand starts a new minute at the top of the dial, as does the minute hand with each new hour. So it is more intuitive for me to have the hour hand of my watch mark the new day at the same location on the dial.....which is at the top. And when I really stop and think about it, Whifferdill's correct observation of having to face Due South for the "12" at the top dial to mimic the passage of the Sun, is exactly the same as facing Due North for the "24" or "00" at the top. The relative motion of the Sun is tracked by the hour hand pointing behind me (or to my South) when I face North in the Northern Hemisphere, north of the Tropic of Cancer (where I have spent 99.5% of my life). Of course, my whole argument is thrown out the window if you live in the Southern Hemisphere, south of the Tropic of Capricorn.
> 
> Now that I have confused everyone, including myself, let's just enjoy all these great 24-hour watches we have access to, and let the debates continue.........................


if you've confused me it's only because you and Whifferdill have more knowledge about 24 hour watches. Intuitively because I'm not sure I understand the technical stuff right now are you saying that because the sun hits us counterclockwise, essentially right to left, east to west, that movement on noon at top 24 hour watch is not correct or baffles?

whoa boy, I now see the argument or preference for 24 at the top.

I guess I always viewed noon at the top with no reference outside itself.


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## whifferdill

Sean779 said:


> if you've confused me it's only because you and Whifferdill have more knowledge about 24 hour watches. Intuitively because I'm not sure I understand the technical stuff right now are you saying that because the sun hits us counterclockwise, essentially right to left, east to west, that movement on noon at top 24 hour watch is not correct or baffles?
> 
> whoa boy, I now see the argument or preference for 24 at the top.
> 
> I guess I always viewed noon at the top with no reference outside itself.


I wouldn't know about having more knowledge :-d, but for me, 12 on top is more intuitive, simply because at mid-day, the hour hand points straight up - to 'high noon' - the natural mid point of the watch dial _and_ the day. The day hours occupy the _upper_ part of the dial - so the hand kind of progresses around a 'horizon' on the watch face and for me, is the most easily visible portion - especially when part of the dial ( the bottom half ) may be obscured by cuffs etc.

The 24 on top dial makes more sense to many for the reasons razor6 pointed out. Because our brains tend to be 'North orientated ' - in terms of the hour hand following the sun - the 24 on top hand will 'rise' where the sun rises when we face North ( ie. point somewhere to the right ) - neater for some. Of course, turn round and face south and it goes out the window!

Also - on a 12 on top watch, using the watch as a compass, North is where the 24 is - South is where the 12 is ( which is at the 'top' of the watch ) which for our _North at the top_ _brains_ might be off-putting.:-s

However - at mid-day, with the sun overhead, the hour hand will point roughly to twelve - which is at the 'top' of the watch - the hand is 'high' when the sun is high, which I like. It's also easier in my view, if you have more than one watch;-), going between 12 and 24 hour watches with a 12 on top orientation.

At the end of the day - I think I just find reading the time and getting a sense of the day with the daylight hours of the watch in the top half of the dial!

Good thread.


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## razor6

whifferdill said:


> Also - on a 12 on top watch, using the watch as a compass, North is where the 24 is - South is where the 12 is ( which is at the 'top' of the watch ) which for our _North at the top_ _brains_ might be off-putting.:-s


I was going to mention the point about using the watch as a compass in my last post (but it was too long as it was). Another reason for my ultimate preference for 24 (and North) at the top.

Whifferdill's argument for 12 at the top equating to "high noon" at midday is probably the most simplistic and compelling (and very valid) reason for those who prefer that orientation. That, as well as mimicing the shadow of the Sun cast by a sundial, which was one of the earliest timepieces invented. And I REALLY wanted to be in that camp. (Wow, I may be talking myself back into the 12 at the top preference).

But, in the end, that portion of my brain that brings "symmetry and order to the Universe" still tells me that my preference is for the second, minute, AND hour hands of a watch to begin and end at the same point on the dial ---at the top (or at 24). I can still use my watch as BOTH a timepiece and a compass. Whifferdill, Sean779, and Dennis are happy with their argument and I am happy with mine, but I think we still agree that the only "real" watch is one with a 24 hour dial. So, we all win.

But, enough highjacking of this thread. Back to Raketonosets original post, I agree that the Aviator's dial is one of the "cleanest" 24 hour dials in existence, and I will soon have one for myself!!


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## sesquipedalian

I only have one 24-hour watch so I'm by no means an expert but I have the same desire for the symmetry and order of a dial with 24 at the top. That said, my brain just doesn't seem to like anything without 12 at the top, probably for the reasons already expressed. So my submission of the day is a combination of my personal taste in readability and style:


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## razor6

Very simplistic, unassuming and old style.......I like it!


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## whifferdill

I like the Aviator but prefer the font on the Fortis - both are exceptionally legible dials and perhaps the best out there in that regard. The *Guinand Flying Officer* is another good one IMO - even more of an achievement when you consider that it is a chronograph.


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## raketonosets

Agreed. The Guinand Flying Officer is really a superb 24 watch. But the price of 1870 Euros (found here) leaves me wondering...


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## razor6

raketonosets said:


> The Flieger is very good but four things make the Aviator better, in my mind.
> 
> 1) the hour number are larger on the Aviator
> 2) the lines showing the odd hours are longer on the Flieger which clutters the dial
> 3) 00:00 is indicated by a 24 and a triangle on the Flieger, whereas the Aviator only has a symbol, but a very clear and large one.
> 4) on the Flieger the date box is placed next the the number 6 whereas on the Aviator it *replaces* the number 12
> 
> As a result, the Russian design is simpler, less cluttered, purer.
> 
> Another difference between the two watches is that the Russian date is a conventional black figure on a white background, whereas the Flieger as a white number on a black background. I am not sure which one I prefer, nor am I sure that it makes a difference. I would have to hold a Flieger in my hand which I never have, alas.
> 
> Lastly the Flieger seems to have a lume seconds hand which the Aviator lacks. I think that this is the only feature in which the Fortis is better.
> 
> I like the Fleiger and I don't mean to diss it, but I think that the Aviator shows that small things add up to a dramatic difference.
> 
> Your thoughts?
> 
> RN
> 
> PS: when you get your Aviator, could you post a comparison for the "look and feel" of the two watches? As I said, I never held a Fortis in my hand (or on my wrist) and there are things which a photo does not show. I would be very interested in hearing how to two compare in "feeling". Thanks!


I received my Aviator yesterday and I am very pleased with it. I have a colleague at work who has the Fortis Fleiger 24-hour, and he happened to be wearing it today. Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera to take comparison shots, but here are my impressions:

Both have extremely simple and legible dials. The Fortis DOES NOT have a lume second hand (as it appears to in photos). In the dark, the Aviator is much brighter, but the Fortis has a more pleasing blueish tint as opposed to the Aviator's greenish tint. But the Aviator is more quickly legible in the dark.

The Aviator's numbers are larger, and the odd hour lines are shorter, but both of these factors actually makes the Fortis LESS cluttered to my eyes. It is easier to read the time "at a glance" with the Fortis because of this, especially on odd hours. In addition, the minute indicators on the Fortis are shorter and are at the edge of the dial, which makes for a cleaner and less cluttered look.

I don't like the "24" mark at the top of the Fortis. The Aviator's triangle is better. I also don't really have an opinion one way or the other about the date indicator. Both are equally legible to my eyes.

One last thing that is apparent in a side-by-side comparison is the diameter of the watch face. While both watches have 40mm cases, the Fortis has a larger actual dial (37mm vs. 32mm for the Aviator). It took me a while, but I believe this is the main reason that the Fortis barely edges out the Aviator in "instant legibility", and something I would have never picked up on without seeing them side-by-side.

Now, is the Forits worth a street price of $1,000 more than the Aviator? Not in my eyes. If I were able to choose one or the other (and price were no option), then I would choose the Fortis. But for $200, the Aviator can't be beat in my mind.


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## aai

for me the ideal 24 hour watch displays: 
all 24 hour numbers in the same size:
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24/00
most 5 minute numbers:
5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60
minute/seconds scale. 
even hour markers at 5 min interval.
No markers at the odd hour!

to name one:

Glycine Airman


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## raketonosets

Thanks for the very interesting comparison. One more thing I want to ask. Did you get a feeling that the Fortis is better built, that the materials are of better quality, that the finish is superior. To put it differently, if you had no idea who the manufactuers are, could you tell the more expensive watch?

Thanks!


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## razor6

raketonosets said:


> Thanks for the very interesting comparison. One more thing I want to ask. Did you get a feeling that the Fortis is better built, that the materials are of better quality, that the finish is superior. To put it differently, if you had no idea who the manufactuers are, could you tell the more expensive watch?
> 
> Thanks!


In word, "Yes". The Fortis appears to be the better built, more refined of the two. It probably has most to do with the numbers and lume on the dial of the Aviator. This is a very unfair comment, but they seem to be more "dime store" quality than that of the Fortis. One thing I do like about the Aviator though is the slightly domed crystal, whereas the Fortis was flat. The Aviator is a $200 watch and the Fortis is $1200, and you would be able tell the difference between the two even without a name or logo, but the Aviator is by no means "cheap" in feel or construction.

My Aviator has the stainless steel case (not PVD finish), so I can't compare the case finish with the Fortis.


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## raketonosets

Thanks for all the info. I hope to see the Fortis for myself one day.

BTW - the PVDed Forits sell for $1'800 (that's the price of 9 Aviators:think

Cheers!

RN


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## razor6

raketonosets said:


> BTW - the PVDed Forits sell for $1'800 (that's the price of 9 Aviators:think
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> RN


 The street price that my friend paid was $1200 new for his Fortis. Still a hell of a lot more than the Aviator.


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## TZAG

Don't forget Fortis has ETA automatic movement when Aviator uses a simple 17J Poljot 2623 hand-wind movement.


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## razor6

Absolutely TZAG, good point. There is a reason the Fortis is so much more than the Aviator. It is really a matter of value (as with anything). Would I spend $1200 for the Fortis....I don't know. It's a damn nice watch, and it is a limited edition. Would I spend $200 for the Aviator? YES.


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## dragonkhan

aai said:


> for me the ideal 24 hour watch displays:
> all 24 hour numbers in the same size:
> 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24/00
> most 5 minute numbers:
> 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60
> minute/seconds scale.
> even hour markers at 5 min interval.
> No markers at the odd hour!
> 
> to name one:
> 
> Glycine Airman


I agree with you, aai!

For me, Glycine have the best 24h watch dial.


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## TZAG

Although Aviator is cheaper, I think noone will regret to have it.


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## raketonosets

TZAG said:


> Don't forget Fortis has ETA automatic movement when Aviator uses a simple 17J Poljot 2623 hand-wind movement.


good point!


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## raketonosets

razor6 said:


> and it is a limited edition.


I was wondering about that.

I get the feeling that all Volmax watches are always produced in 999 copies (they all have a figure like 297/999) on the back. Does that qualify as 'limited edition'?

What do other manufacturers mean by "limited edition" - 100? 1000?

Thanks!


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## razor6

dragonkhan said:


> I agree with you, aai!
> 
> For me, Glycine have the best 24h watch dial.


I agree with aai and dragonkhan that the Glycine is a great watch with a great dial layout. In fact, my Airman Special II is my favorite 24-hour watch (unless I eventually flip it for an Airman 18--see earlier post aobut "12" vs. "24" at the top). Not the least of which because it has a SECOND 24-hour dial on the bezel, which I put more importance on than the easier legibility of my new Aviator.

I only vote for the Fortis Fleiger as the most well designed and least cluttered dial (for me) because with the Glycine the numbers do get "bunched up" a little from 13 to 24.

All great watches, though. And who among us can stop at just one in the collection?


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## TZAG

raketonosets said:


> I was wondering about that.
> 
> I get the feeling that all Volmax watches are always produced in 999 copies (they all have a figure like 297/999) on the back. Does that qualify as 'limited edition'?
> 
> What do other manufacturers mean by "limited edition" - 100? 1000?
> 
> Thanks!


Speaking for russian watches I've seen many times those "limited editions" which I believe they aren't actually.
They are named as such only for marketing reasons.


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## raketonosets

TZAG said:


> Speaking for russian watches I've seen many times those "limited editions" which I believe they aren't actually.
> They are named as such only for marketing reasons.


Interesting. What is your basis for saying that? Do you think that a series with 999 watches is too high a figure to be properly considered a limited edition or have you actually seen two russian watches with the same limited edition number (like two same models with, say, 347/999 and 347/999)?


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## TZAG

Yes I think so, it's a common practice that most of russian and ex-soviet brands follow these days. However I've never seen watches with the same number.


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## Sodiac

I guess I'm a bit shocked to see the Volmax Aviator as one of the best - I own one and rarely wear it because it's too difficult for me to tell the time. I realized this on a couple of different occasions when people asked me what time it was and I had to study the watch to figure it out.

It's my only 24 hour watch, so don't have much to compare. I'm thinking of buying a 24 hour Russian pocket watch I've seen that has a wider face with what seems like more legible numbers.

I think the Aviator needs a wider face and narrower markings, along with very sharp pointed hands with lots of contrast to make it better for me.


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## TZAG

Personally, it'd be perfect if this was 43mm just like my Aviator "flying tank". :roll:


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## raketonosets

You can get an Aviator with a 45mm dial here. I have one of those and I can tell you that photos do not to justice to this very beautiful watch (each number is kind of "plated" with a reflective coating which makes them look like the pistons of the old prop planes).

HTH


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## TZAG

bah, I prefer better the classical dial.


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## raketonosets

TZAG said:


> bah, I prefer better the classical dial.


No argument whatsoever, so do I.

But the 45mm dial is very pretty too (check out the attacked pic). First, I was dubious. But now the more I wear it the more I like it.
YMMV


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## dbluefish

Ok folks I don't have a 24hr watch yet but this design is growing on me. What do you folks think?

paul


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## raketonosets

I like the purity of the design, and color scheme. But not having the minute hand we be confusing I think. Still, I would love to get one of these. I say go for it!

Cheers!


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## raschid

my favourite dial design:


12 on top
shades of colour indicating the phases of light and darkness during the day
very easy to read, once you are used to it










raschid


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## bordizzle

my cosmonaute was pretty sweet:









currently, i have a bernhardt globemaster... VERY happy with it:


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## gmhutton

i'm currently on the look out for a nice 24 hour preferably with 12 at the top. it just makes sense that when the sun is high so is the hour hand.
i'd also really like a 24hr singlehander. Botta do a superb one, but its quartz which puts me off, the only one i've seen is the new Jaquet Droz, but thats a ridiculous price i assume. somewhere over £10k!:-s
looks like it'll be an aviator as i've got the IQ version of the Fortis already and dont particularly like the quality of the case. i only keep it for the funky dial.

i've taken a look at the Airnautics and they look good. well made, decent movement etc.

if anyone has any ideas of a decent 24 under $1000 please let me know

cheers

Graham


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## Dennis Smith

I just broke down and bought an Airnautic like the one pictured here...
It arrived yesterday. What a neat watch. I love it, and will be posting pics and a review soon.


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## BenL

Congrats, brotha. Nice one. :-!


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## BenL

I quite like this one.


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## Dennis Smith

I agree that's about the best 12 hour dial ever made.
It's not a 24 hour dial though, it's a 12 hour dial with a 24 hour bezel.
Ther hard thing about designing a very clear 24 hour dial is making it as easy to read as a classic Rolex sport dial


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## Corbyhk

Dennis. Congrats. I'll be interested to hear your comments on readability and your opinion on the length of the hands.


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## Giftrin

i like old Style.:-!


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## Noisy Nova

Hamilton 4992B


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## whifferdill

Noisy Nova said:


> Hamilton 4992B


Superb|>


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## yallwatch

I haven't heard that watch more before~~


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## dalstott

Dennis Smith said:


> I just broke down and bought an Airnautic like the one pictured here...
> It arrived yesterday. What a neat watch. I love it, and will be posting pics and a review soon.
> 
> Congrats Dennis,
> Being a Yantar owner I am very interested in the Airnautic line and will appreciate your pictures.


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## Bruno.M

Sorry for the bump!  In 2k10 Im planning on buying my first 24hr watch, and I'm interested in this one;

http://www.vostok-watches.com/start...viator_mechanical_24_hours_A_2623_1225831.php

You think this is readible for a beginner (its 8 to 3 right? ;p)? Is 160 euro a fair price? Is the shop known around here? How is the Poljot 2623 movement, what about accuracy?

Greetz!
Bruno

PS; how do Aviator's arrive? Always in a nice package like http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/POLJOT-AVIATO...ristwatches?hash=item45f053cc16#ht_8416wt_939 ?


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## Dennis Smith

It's 0350 in the morning.
I've heard good things about these watches though I have no first hand experience.
I agree that it would be a very easy watch to read in 24.
Hopefully someone else can help with your other questions.


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## Bruno.M

I posted the wrong one, I meant this one;

http://www.vostok-watches.com/d_A_2623_1224829_Aviator_mechanical_24_hours_A_2623_1224829.php


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## Schmiedel

raschid said:


> raschid


 What watches are these?


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## nz_Fuzzy

|> time is 0252.

Had this watch and was very easy to read.
I am quite hard on watches and the domed crystal broke within the first month. 
Also a need for care with the stem. The stem pulled out completely on mine (after snagging on a glove that I was taking off - I'm a paramedic) Unfortunately the company I brought it through went bust and I lost the watch when it went in for warranty repairs.

If you're used to domed crystals and don't have any problems with them, then it should be a great first watch. :-!


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## 2manywatchez

FroFro said:


> I posted the wrong one, I meant this one;
> 
> http://www.vostok-watches.com/d_A_2623_1224829_Aviator_mechanical_24_hours_A_2623_1224829.php


That Vostok has a very Fortis look to it.










I had this Fortis for a while and wore it only occasionally. Never had a problem reading it even though I was switching back and forth.

That said, I still prefer 12 on top...


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## raschid

Schmiedel said:


> What watches are these?


The actual watches are Russian Raketas. The dials are my own designs, hi-res printed on photo paper.


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## arkane

+1 on the Aviator 24-Hour 2623/1225830 :-!









shown on dark brown Hirsch Liberty


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## Pierre Rousseau

Dennis Smith said:


> I agree that's about the best 12 hour dial ever made.
> It's not a 24 hour dial though, it's a 12 hour dial with a 24 hour bezel.
> Ther hard thing about designing a very clear 24 hour dial is making it as easy to read as a classic Rolex sport dial


My two-pence:

In a 24 hour watch the hours are very closely spaced, therefore:

a 24 hour dial needs the longest possible hour arm to be readable.
in a 24 hour watch the minute arm must be the shorter arm
the top of the case or the part where the face slopes sharply down inside to the face (below the rim of the crystal) or a bezel is the best place to put the numbers on a 24 hour watch
the marks on a 24 hour watch should accentuate every three hours like in a 12 hour watch (and not every two hours)
The only watch kind of in this configuration already is a GMT type 24 hour watch, as in the example. Its 24 hour setup is easier to read than that of a true 24 hour watch. It is a better 24 hour watch. You would think watch designers would pick up on it ...


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## Dennis Smith

The AirNautic Meteor come close to your description, as far as the reversed hand lengths...


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## waffle

raschid said:


> my favourite dial design:
> 
> 
> 12 on top
> shades of colour indicating the phases of light and darkness during the day
> very easy to read, once you are used to it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raschid


Anyone know what these are? I googled for MRK watches and couldn't find anything.


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## Dennis Smith

From Raschid:
"The actual watches are Russian Raketas. The dials are my own designs, hi-res printed on photo paper."


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## raschid

Yo. Wearing one now.



Dennis Smith said:


> From Raschid:
> "The actual watches are Russian Raketas. The dials are my own designs, hi-res printed on photo paper."


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## DrTime

Your point about the 24 hour dial with 12 at the top (and clockwise motion of the watch hands!) mimicking the shadow of the gnomon on a sundial when one faces north, is fascinating - thanks for pointing that out. I usually think of it the other way you mentioned - the actual motion of the sun, facing south.

The Volmax Aviator, IMHO is the best value in a new 24 hour watch, very functional and also very solid feeling. However, I prefer 12 at the top, as for me a 24 hour watch is basically a "solar-only astronomical wrist clock". I have one of AirNautic's AN-24 manual wind watches with the blue/black day/night dial and 12 at the top, and that's how I prefer it.


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## Red Rover

I'm resurrecting this thread after several months hiatus because I find the discussion very pertinent to my watch interests at the moment. I also find the Aviator dial posted earlier very easy to read (not so with all the Aviator 24 dials) and attractive as well. As a value watch with a 24 hour dial that I like, I think it is a great deal. I ordered the Sturmanskie World Traveller 24 hour from russia2all.com, mostly because it was in stock, looked nice, and could be had quickly. Craig shipped it within a day or so, but, I found that the watch was not very easy to tell time with. I returned it immediately and craig ordered the Aviator. He is great to deal with.

Now, I have been looking at the AirNautic and Glycine watches. I don't mind which number is at the top as neither is imtuitive and takes adjusting to. What I mean is, it takes a while to get a time reading with a glance for either style. I do think the day / night coloring really helps. I am leaning to the Glycine Airman Base 22 Purist as what I think is the "best 24 hour dial", but that is based only on the net searching of info provided by many of you. Incidently, I have been using 24 hour time for 34 years in my job as a firefighter, but have always done the conversion from a 12 hour dial (don't like digital readouts).

The airman 18 with day/night coloring in blue would get my vote, except that it is small, 38mm. The Base 22 Purist is bigger, has 12 at the top, and gets my vote for the best 24 hour dial. Wish the day/night blue dial was available for it.

Anyway, I will wait until Craig gets me the Aviator and wear it for a while before I spend another $1400-2000 on a 24. For me, the Aviator will be an easily affordable way to see what I like. I also like the airNautic, and I like that he is located in So. florida, where I live. maybe silly, but I take small comfort in buying a watch locally.

For those who posted here earlier, have your thoughts changed?

World Traveller That I Returned









Glycine Airman 18 with day night coloring in blue









Base 22, my vote for 24 hour "perfect dial"


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## Xaque

For me the attraction of the 24hr watch is it's functionality. I work many odd and changing shifts, and I like having certainty with my time pieces.

Ever since they were announced, the Fortis Flieger 24h PVD has been the epitome of good watch design (imho).










The face in uncluttered with numbers, but the marks for the odd hours are full and large, extending all the way to the end of the hour hand.

There are also minute notations (on the 5min marks) which also adds to the functionality.

I recently purchased the Lum-Tec Combat B4:










(I write about my thoughts here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f5/new-forum-new-lum-tec-b4-438564.html)

It's a great watch, and the lume is fantastic, but my gripes with it reflect what I feel is great about the Fortis.

The odd hours, while actually denoted in numerals, are very small, and not lumed.

The end result is difficulty in quickly determining the hour in low-light conditions. It takes too much thinking and studying (in my taste) to figure out which hour the hour hand is falling under.

Aside from these nit-picks the watch is great, and I feel a close second to the Fortis.


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## siv

For me, the Glycine Airman Double 24 09 has the easiest to read dial even though it seems very busy. The simple reason for this is that the yellow hour markings intended for the second hour hand also fall right in place for the main hour hand.

This makes reading the hour a doddle and the minutes are intuitive anyway.


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## PHILOSOPHERDAN

Hi

This is my first post, though I have been reading this forum for a few months now. Like many others, I started off with a Raketa, but as this has broken, I have been trying to figure out what to get as a replacement - given a fairly limited budget.

The Fortis and Aviator are very nice and (from the photos) clearer and less cluttered than the Airman. There are a number of ways that I think they could be improved.

First, thinner hands. I think thin hands are much clearer. Thin hands mean that you can look at any point of the hand in order to get a sense of the time, rather than simply having to focus on the very tip, which is clearly more effort. You also can get a better spatial representation of time - of how much of the day has gone and how much is to go - by looking look at area either side of the hands, without having to account for the area taken up by the hand itself. Also the eye more naturally travels along the straight line to the number/point on the dial. Plus fat hands sometimes obscure the numbers (as on the Aviator).

Secondly, I think it makes more sense to have the long lines where the even numbers are (which the Aviator does but not the Fortis) - this is what we are familiar with from 12 horu watches, so makes reading the watch easier..

Third it makes more sense to list the odd numbers rather than the even numbers. We do not need to list the even numbers, because we are used to simply having lines at the 5 minute, 10 minute, 15 minute etc position, so do not need numbers there - as someone else says in an earlier post, the reading of minutes is largely intuitive). Thus the Fortis and Aviator would be improved by switching the lines and the numbers - in other words having lines where the even numbers are and the odd numbers listed where the even numbers are. Interestingly, of those manufacturers who list either odd or even, most list even, and Raketa are the only commonly found make who generally list only odd. But listing odd rather than even really does make more sense.

By having long lines (and no numbers) where the even numbers would be, and the odd numbers plus a dot in between, a watch face can be both neat like the Fortis, and even more readable than the Aviator.

Finally, for a rather different face, but certainly very clear and a new candidate for most easily readable face in production, go to the Airnautics home page, where there is now a good picture of the new dress watch .
OCEAN7 Watch Company (I'm not sure whether I can cut and paste the photo here - I'll try) The face only displays the numbers 6, 12 18 and 24, but once one is used to a 24 hour watch, this is not a problem. 









Best wishes

Dan


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## Xaque

PHILOSOPHERDAN said:


> Hi
> 
> Third it makes more sense to list the odd numbers rather than the even numbers.
> 
> Dan


I was thinking this same thing, but mostly because in my world, work shifts fall 0700-1500, 1500-2300, 2300-0700.

Interesting to hear that I'm not the only one who's thought about swapping the notated numbers.

-Zack


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## Dennis Smith

Welcome and thanks for the post.
I believe you mean this one (on the left):


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## Red Rover

Dennis Smith said:


> Welcome and thanks for the post.
> I believe you mean this one (on the left):


Although that watch is beautiful looking, I find that dial to be for a more experienced user of 24 hour dials. I am well familiar with 24 hour time and converting from a 12 hour dial intuitively. For me, that dial is difficult to tell, at a glance, the time when the hour hand is in between the arabic numerals. I sent back the Sturmanskie for that very reason (earlier post in this thread).

The dials that have every other number (odd or even) like the Aviator or every number, like the Glycine, on the dial work best for me. If it's not on the number, I know at a glance it's the between the two numbers without counting indexes forward, or backward, to determine the hour. Perhaps when it becomes more intuitive for me that dial will be an option.


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## PHILOSOPHERDAN

Hi

Thanks Denis, that’s it.

I agree with Red Rover that the Sturmanskie (if it is the one I am thinking about) is the most difficult dial to read, because it does not even have dots or lines for the odd hours, which at least the new Airnautics does. The lack of these extra dots or lines also makes it easy to forget that one is looking at a 24 hour dial rather htan a conventional 12 hour dial…

Cheers

Dan


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## Finnigan24

Those are some BEAUTIFUL watches! I don't own any 24 hour watches (unless you count digital, hi hi), but I have been coveting a Yes Zulu for some time now. In fact, currently it is my Holy Grail. I'm not sure it is what you gents are looking for though.

Link: YES Zulu 4 Solunar Wrist Watch


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## Dennis Smith

A few of us own or have owned YES's. I haven't, but have been curious about them for a long time. If you decide to buy, be sure to tell them you're from Watchuseek. YES had some really great deals for us


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## Finnigan24

I'll have to remember that. Thanks Dennis!


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## Red Rover

I'll have to vote for this one now that I am wearing it. Glycine Airman Base 22 Purist.

ETA: now I can give some real input after wearing this one for a day and learning how to use it. Nothing on any of these 24 hour dials is as intuitive as a 12 hour dial that we all know from years of conditioning. There are 12 hour watches without any indexes at all that we can still tell time with. We know the spatial relationship of the hands to the locations on the dial, indexed or not.

For me, learning my new purist 24 is simplest by having instantly recognizable main refernce points and recognizable intermediate reference points. This Airman purist works for me on several levels. First, 12 on top makes 0600 to 1800 the top half of the dial, while 1800 to 0600 is the bottom half. Daylight over darkness is intuitive for me, even without any shading on the dial. this was mentioned by others but I find that it works.

Next, every index is numbered, if only visible with good lighting, having them all numbered is still a help. It helps as a study aid during the day when I can read them and confirm my "intuitive reading". My main reference indexes are the "straight up and downs"; 1200, 1800, 0000, and 0600. On this dial, 1200 and 0000 have triangular markers, which is OK but not necessary for me. The 1800 is marked by the calander window, no line, but is still easily identified as a main reference. All 4 straight up and downs are easy to pick up visually and easy to remember. All the even indexes in between the straight up and downs are bold lines, and the odd indexes are round dots. The lines extend farther toward the center of the dial, while the dots seem to recede, yet they still mark the space for the odd hour.

Now, by forcing myself to learn the four quadrants of the dial, reading the time intuitively is already easier for me than it was yesterday. My day is normal, starting around 0700, so I'll start with the upper left dial quadrant. I know it starts at 0600 and ends at 1200 (rote memorization of straight up and downs). The two bold lines in between the up and downs are 0800 and 1000. Breaking the dial down like that, I am learning to tell the time quickly in each quadrant without having to read the numbers. I thought that would be impossible yesterday when I opened the newly delivered Glycine. The shape of the hands helps too, but this thread is about the dial.

To summarize why I like this dial; even hour indexes quickly recognizable and all marked with bold lines, up and downs and in-betweens. Odd hour indexes clearly marked with a different style marker, round dots. Lume on all indexes and hands. I didn't mention the minutes; they are all small lines. The middle two, i.e. minutes 2 & 3 and 7 & 8 are right at the edge of the odd hour dot index, but are still visible.

This Airman purist dial is a good one.

The Aviator may even be easier to read because the even indexes are all marked with large numbers at the inside end of the lines (except the 12 where the date is) and the odd indexes are just a line without a number. I assume they are all lumed? Problem for me is I don't think I can mix a 12 at the top with a 24 at the top. The Aviator I have inbound will probably be up for sale, new in the box. Stay posted.

PS, for those who struggle with 24 hour time, note where my bezel is set, with 24 at the top. This gives a quick confirmation of 1300 through 0000 in the standard 2, 4, 6, etc. while the odd numbers are triangles. I keep mine set like that for now, even though I'm good with 24 hour time. When my wife deploys to Iraq with her search dog next week, I'll have a second time zone to track.


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## sheepshearer

i was lucky enough to bag a Fortis Flieger a couple of weeks back and i'm still feeling the love big time. it took some hunting down and waiting for and i can't afford it as a daily beater. i keep livestock and handling of animals, carrying feed and shovelling of general (and some very specific) filth on a daily basis is not a good environment for conserving such rarities.

so i've bought a 2623 based Aviator as a beater and here's a comparison of the Fortis with its significantly cheaper Russian cousin.

up front, i have to say the Fortis wins hands down - which is a relief considering the price difference. the cases are the same size (40mm), but the Fortis dial is larger and that gives it a few advantages. first though, the Fortis user benefits:

Swiss auto movement 20 ATM W/R screw-down crown, hacking and quick-set date
vs
Russian manual 3 ATM W/R

Flat sapphire crystal with anti-reflective coating
vs
Gently domed mineral glass no anti-reflective coating

both watches came on a 20mm leather strap tapering to 18mm. the Fortis buckle is more burly than the Aviator, but the strap itself i quickly replaced with a Hirsch Liberty and carried the buckle over. the matt black Aviator strap is good though and suits the PVD case well.

i went for a black PVD case on the Aviator because i like my watches to be distinct from one another and from pictures i really couldn't pick a winner between the PVD and plain case.

both watches wear very nicely being weighty enough to have presence but without throwing that weight about like divers can.

on to the hands. the Fortis hour hand is more kite-like but at no point obscures the dial's digits. the Aviator hands are a slight disappointment. the hour hand partially obscures all numbers beyond 0800 and is a less pleasing shape. the minute hand's lume does not extend to the dial centre as on the Fortis. both second hands are good, but the Fortis wins again being slightly more elegantly thin, with a smoother sweep and a more pleasing day-glo orange that gives better contrast with the dial.

the Fortis dial is where the designer earned his or her higher Swiss salary. it's bigger allowing all even hours to be marked in full. even at 0600 where the date window could have taken priority and again at midnight. Fortis has longer odd hour tick marks that extend right to the tip of the superior hour hand greatly increasing readability. the typeface on the Fortis uses open sixes and flat-topped fours and is generally more clean and precise. the digit 2 has to be good as there are plenty of them in the top half of the dial and it doesn't fail. the typography on the Aviator is all round more clunky and industrial.

so while the Aviator is out played in every position on the pitch it still offers a good hard game and for me looks to be the perfect beater. the Fortis - i honestly cannot fault it. though i did read somewhere that it has a plastic movement spacer inside, but i'll just have to live with that.

two bad photos...


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## Dennis Smith

I like how you hacked the watches perfectly.
My brother trains and cares for elephants...talk about shovel-fulls 
Nice write-up! Nothing wrong with a little plastic now and then when it serves a good purpose (like a spacer ring).


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## DM71

*Great thread! I'm new to 24h watch and received this Aviator a few days ago. I was surprise not to see this model nowhere here in the listing since I think it's one of the easiest dial to read if not the easiest, so here it is.* *First, I'm very impress by the quality of this watch and at 45mm, it's a size that appeals to me more than a lot of 38 or 40mm models. The lume is great (Superluminova) and even the original strap is nice (the watch is on a SteveO bund strap for now), really a great deal in it's price range...*

* Living in a francophone province here in Canada,** I've been using the 24h system all my life, so it was quite intuitive for me to read the time in that format. I think that 24h scale is the logical way of doing a dial :-! I'm waiting for my Glycine SST-06 GMT to be converted to the PURIST version and this is for sure not the end of my search for 24h watches, I love them.*


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## Red Rover

DM71 said:


> *Great thread! I'm new to 24h watch and received this Aviator a few days ago. I was surprise not to see this model nowhere here in the listing since I think it's one of the easiest dial to read if not the easiest, so here it is.* *First, I'm very impress by the quality of this watch and at 45mm, it's a size that appeals to me more than a lot of 38 or 40mm models. The lume is great (Superluminova) and even the original strap is nice (the watch is on a SteveO bund strap for now), really a great deal in it's price range...*
> 
> *Living in a francophone province here in Canada,** I've been using the 24h system all my life, so it was quite intuitive for me to read the time in that format. I think that 24h scale is the logical way of doing a dial :-! I'm waiting for my Glycine SST-06 GMT to be converted to the PURIST version and this is for sure not the end of my search for 24h watches, I love them.*


This dial has some good features that make it easy to read. The bold hour indexes for the even hours give strong reference points for quickly recognizing the time. Example, between 1800 and 0000 are 2000 and 2200, easily recognized, but by memorizating positions, not intuition. All 4 quadrants of the watch can be "learned" like this. I believe that the dial would be improved with a bold, but different index with lume at the odd hours. Some Glycine Airman like mine have lumed dots at the odds. The Fortis and Aviator shown above by sheapshearer have bold Arabic numerals for evens and a bold, unnumbered line for the odds. The Fortis odds are long and come closer to the hour hand. I think it is a little easier to read than the Aviator.

To me, the mark of readability is tested when the numbers are not visible and you have to use the landmarks. Using the lume at night is the best example. I think your Aviator is a beauty, but the dial would be helped with lumed, odd indexes that are bigger than those small dots.

The dots at the odds on my Airman make it easier to read, especially in the dark. They would be more functional if they were a little closer to the hour hand (moved toward the center) but the dial would not be as visually pleasing.


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## DM71

*Night reading is the only negative point I have for most of the 24h dial. Like you pointed out, the lumed dots at odd hours makes it easier to read at night, but unfortunately, most 24h watch I see do not have lume dots or markers on odd hours...* *Your Glycine is one of the only model I have seen like that, it's also a beauty by the way.*


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## Red Rover

There are times when the numbers arent visible, but it's not dark enough for the lume to lume. Bolder odd indexes help me to read the time at any time of day.

Good luck with your 24. It makes time fun.


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