# Seiko - "Tanto" - Sports Chronograph Concept



## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Hi all,

I've been working on this personal watch project for the past several months. I posted a bit of the progress a while ago on the Reddit r/Watches page and got some helpful feedback, but wanted I would share here as well -- I usually stay on the Seiko and Citizen boards here any didn't know about this Concept Forum previously, but it's cool to go back and see different designs that have started here.

I don't intend this to be any production or functional watch, just a fun project during the downtime, but would love to hear any feedback, positive or negative. Being a personal design project, I don't consider anything "done" and you can probably see there are a lot of details still changing around in the images -- like strap and bracelet style, digital vs traditional chronograph, dial layout, etc. -- so anything is still open to change! Even the brand ... though I like Seiko a lot and this seemed like something they _could_ do.

The project is mainly my selfish "dream" sports watch, a combination of diver and military chronograph all in a small-medium wearable case. My "grail" watch would be the Seiko or Puslar RAF watches, if that helps . I don't see too many dive chronographs honestly, so I'm definitely curious what anyone thinks there. One of the areas I kept going back and forth on was actually the count-up vs count-down bezel here, and which one actually makes more sense with a chronograph.




































3D printed models -- some in plastic, one in steel









Digital chronograph concept -- the ana-digi look is probably not for everyone, but the digital displays are meant to be essentially hidden when they are off.









More traditional chronograph version.



















I forgot to mention that this is meant to be a relatively affordable *quartz *watch too (solar would even be better!).

Link to more images if you are curious.

Thank you for reading and welcome any feedback!


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## hwapyung08 (Jul 24, 2020)

Saw what you posted on /r/watches and really liked the concept you had for the GMT version. I really like what you've done with the chronograph variant, especially with the analog subdials.

Love the dials on both, though the bottom half of the GMT feels a little sparse to me, but the depth rating text would probably balance it out a bit. I really like the hands you have on the chronograph. Would definitely get both the GMT and the chronograph version if they existed!

Great concept and renders!


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Looks pretty good. Nice execution.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Ginseng108: Thank you!

Hwapyung08: Thanks a lot, and it means a lot you remembered this from r/watches! It's funny you mention the GMT one ... I don't think I updated that one much after posting about it, maybe due to the fact that it was tricky to shoe-horn in a use for the second pusher (assuming most GMTs just need the single crown), but it will be fun to give this one another go. Definitely agree that it needs something like the depth text in the blank area!

Edit: sorry about using the "@" previously, I didn't know it pinged users.


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## CLP (Sep 25, 2015)

That looks fantastic and I like the treatment of the date window, not something you see on most watches.

Would the single numbers be significantly wider, or just have more space on the sides? I guess making them 01, 02 etc would give it a futuristic vibe that this design seems to be going for.

Well done.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks a lot CLP! I appreciate the thoughts on the date window -- it is honestly a little small compared to many out there, but I wanted to keep it from overlapping or replacing the 3 hour marker like it does on so many watches.

I usually like the "doubled up" single numbers -- 01, 02, 03, etc. -- on bezels and dials, but for whatever reason, I went with single numbers on the fake movement that I had been working on below. I do agree the doubled numbers work with the vibe and it is not something that I would say is final by any means, so thank you for the idea.


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## Rocco123 (Nov 24, 2017)

Looks great


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Hey Hwapyung08, I was inspired by your comments on the GMT. A couple other people mentioned liking that variation as well and I hadn't touched it in a little while, so I decided to update it. I think your suggestion to add the depth and GMT text to the empty area helped!

I haven't owned a 4-hand GMT before, but the idea would be that you use the top crown to set the GMT / 2nd time zone. The bottom signed crown would set the time just like the other models.

I love the Strapcode Miltat 3D-woven nylon strap, so I put this on a ZULU version of that (with some flattened + brushed rings).

One of the things I'm unsure about is the sub-minute printing on the minute track. As far as I know, these are mainly done on chronographs and don't have much (if any) use on a quartz watch without a sweeping seconds hand. I liked the idea of having the minute track match the chronograph version, but I'm planning to give this a try without the sub-dashes too. Definitely curious if anyone has a preference either way.


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## hwapyung08 (Jul 24, 2020)

Definitely liking updated look for the GMT, especially with the new dial text near the bottom; definitely balances it out. I like the idea of having a separate crown function the GMT hand. Great work again!  I would love to see how it looks without the sub-minute printing, though I do like what the sub-minute markers add to the look.

One thing I noticed with my first look at it: my eyes are drawn immediately to the red GMT hand and hours and less so at the blue seconds hand. I wonder how it would look if it were flipped, with a blue GMT hand and hours and a red seconds hand? But I do like how the red plays with the rest of the design and it makes sense to be drawn to the GMT hand on a GMT watch, so it's hard to say. 

Keep up the awesome work!


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks for the kind words again!

I found a couple threads on the sub-seconds topic a while ago and it was fun to read through them again:








Indices between seconds marks - what are they for?


I've seen several watch photos recently where instead of 60 marks around the dial, they have 300 - 60 regular and 4 shorter ones in between the larger ones. How does one use the smaller indices? Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk




www.watchuseek.com












splitting seconds


Why do wristwatch manufacturers make watch faces or chapter rings which show seconds (or minutes) divided into fourths, fifths, or sixths? . . . . . . .




www.watchuseek.com





This is just a screenshot from the CAD program and not a render yet. I expected to like the sub-seconds more than the lack of them, but don't mind it without them too much.

I like your idea on flipping the red / blue and gave it a quick look too : ) I have a hard time picking between the two also, but part of me likes subduing the GMT and GMT markers a bit (like the blue should do) -- there a lot of watches out there where the complications get in the way of telling the time and I never liked that!


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

I quite like the experimentation. Nothing substitutes for seeing with one's own eyes.

In my view, the numerals on the minute track are redundant and don't really add anything for the additional visual detail. That and the fact that they are very, very small and would likely not be readily resolved at typical "wrist read" distance. Also, the dots on the bezel are centered on the radius but they need not be. Since it's a narrow bezel, clarity between the various visual elements (dots, bars, numerals) benefit from immediate and strong visual differentiation. In this case, you have at your disposal, not only size and shape but relative location. Take a look at how the elements are arranged on the SNR029 and MM300. Obviously the effect is acceentuated by the wider bezel, but this placement of the dots also serves to bring the minute markers into closer proximity to the minute hand.

The hollow indices are a nice touch and I have a mixed impression of them. I think going for the novelty of filling in the markers as the second hand superimoses them is neat. But is that neatness entirely supported by the functional necessity of the indices? On that point, since the 3,6, and 9 indices are hollowed, the stronger differentiation at the 12 would be a single solid rectangle. As it is currently, it simply looks like the other three albeit with a narrower gap between the long sides.

Never mind these comments if it's not the kind of feedback you're looking for.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks Ginseng -- feedback like this is exactly why I made the thread. Unless a design is on stores or on a customer's wrist, I don't think a design is ever "done," especially if it is a concept like this that hasn't had parts tooled, machines made, etc. Since it's all 3D models and images at this point, it's not too hard to try out suggestions and see how the design changes. 

I must have seen countless divers with inset minute indices on the bezel insert like that -- my three divers have it -- and somehow it didn't occur to me to try it on this one. 

I think the solid bar index at 12 could work well too. Thanks for these suggestions, something I will try out soon.


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## Liudas (Sep 18, 2020)

Hi, is that you done all that sketch and 3D? Looks impressive, I know new watch making group in London, not sure they in US and they looking for that kind people, your work looks really impressive 

Also how 3d printing model works in plastic and steel? is printed in plastic have actual accuracy?


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

It's been a while but I finally got around to adjusting those bezel dots and some small changes on the indices. Thanks again for the thoughts on this Ginseng! And Hwapyung, I liked your blue GMT idea from before, so that had to stay in.

Too funny that "Liudas" was banned after just 2 posts here! Not sure if they were a spammer, but appreciated the words either way.


















I also tried rendering out the different hands, dials, bezel inserts, etc. out by layer just for the heck of it -- usually with the 3D renderings, it's just a single flattened "final" layer. Too many combinations for me to run through them all, especially with my bias for black dials!


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## Krispee (May 5, 2012)

Great work on the design and 3d modeling, I especially loved your sketches (digital sketching?) and the overall design looks really nice - design is something I enjoy as well. I'm not an expert but 40 mm seems quite small for a sports or divers watch, which actually makes the design more impressive I think. As with others the hands are nicely designed. Unusual to have the crowns on the left, unless you are left handed.
I'm curious about what software you used for the modeling and rendering.
Loved the 'shop work you did at the end.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thanks a lot for the comments Krispee! I use a combo of digital and pen ... first image was all digital, second was pen linework with digital shading. 

I wanted to take some slight “risks” with the 40mm and left-handed crowns. There are enough >42mm tool watches out there that I felt that it would be fun to try to represent some of the 40mm and below side of things. The crowns might rub some people the wrong way, but I always figure that you won’t have to use them that often with a quartz watch, so it could potentially be better to just put them on the left and avoid any wrist-digging issues. Some of my digital sports watches have left-handed buttons and I have no issues pushing those with my thumb either (considering the left-handed pushers on this concept). 

Are you in the design or mechanical engineering industries? I use Solidworks for the modeling and Keyshot for the rendering and they are pretty standard there, but a whole lot of software could work out well (even some freeware ones like Blender). Definitely recommend giving it a shot even if it just a hobby, lot of fun to sink time into! Thanks again for the kind words.


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## Krispee (May 5, 2012)

No worries, enjoyed the thread. 

I'm an engineer actually, manufacturing mostly, some design and the occasional foray into the r&d world. I use SW in the course of my work, have done for a few years now, and AC for general work and technical sketching. I've been working on my own watch now for a couple of years on and off, but do enjoy designing, although don't get to it very often. Mostly my design work tends to be based on what I can actually make, or what I think is possible to manufacture. I don't very often design for conceptual reasons like you've done here. I agree it's good to do that sometimes just to flex your creative muscles but don't always have the time. 

Always good to risk, gets you out of your comfort zone. Turning the watch mainstays on its head is a good idea, gives people food for thought, and yes, you don't use your crowns very often.

I'll have to spend a bit more time working on my rendering. I've had some decent results but not at the level you have here.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Very cool to hear your background. Happy to hear your thoughts the "risk" portions. It's a lot easier to do unconventional things when it's just a concept and can't get burned by buyers' reviews -- I can understand why traditional manufacturers stick to what works.

Please @ me if you post your concept some day. With all the threads on this site and sub-forums, it can be easy to miss things. 

I sometimes wish I cared more about the making and hands-on aspects of it, because as others have shown, it's possible with the right determination. I'm sure that with an off-the shelf quartz movement, some outsourced CNC work for the case, and some knowledge and courage with pressing in crystals, hands, etc, you can pretty much make anything. 

The renderings can be fun but also a real time sink compared to the "actual" design (CADing) portions, as I'm sure you know! I haven't tried it yet and don't know if it's included in the standard SW package, but I've heard Solidworks Visualize has come a long way.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

The latest renderings look quite good. The design has become more harmonized. In light of the changes, the ring hour markers are emerging as too small for the other features on the dial. If you are so inclined, I'd try resizing them +40% and retaining the ring thickness proportionally. At that point, I think it'd be production-ready.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thank you! My goal was to keep the rings decidedly smaller than the normal "bars and dots" setup that is so common with divers, like a lightened version of that. Some rough inspiration below, though it is hard to find many examples of this kind of layout. Thanks for the idea on the ring size - it could definitely use the investigation, so it will be something I try on the next round.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

Ah, yes. It's good to understand the motivation behind a designer's decisions. 
The difference here is that being hollow, the circular indices seem too light, or empty in comparative visual weight. You also have three different kinds of markers: ring, parallel lines, and rectangular bar. The rectangular bar being too indistinguished as the noon marker relative to 3, 6, 9. 
I think it might be worth experimenting with the 3, 6, 9 markers. Specifically, close off the ends so that they become rectangles in outline, directly linking them with the subordinate 1, 2, 4, etc. markers. 
It must be nice to have software that allows one to make and test changes so easily. All most of us have is the imagination.
Cheers



Robbie_roy said:


> Thank you! My goal was to keep the rings decidedly smaller than the normal "bars and dots" setup that is so common with divers, like a lightened version of that. Some rough inspiration below, though it is hard to find many examples of this kind of layout. Thanks for the idea on the ring size - it could definitely use the investigation, so it will be something I try on the next round.
> 
> View attachment 15518473
> 
> ...


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## Krispee (May 5, 2012)

Robbie_roy said:


> Very cool to hear your background. Happy to hear your thoughts the "risk" portions. It's a lot easier to do unconventional things when it's just a concept and can't get burned by buyers' reviews -- I can understand why traditional manufacturers stick to what works.
> 
> Please @ me if you post your concept some day. With all the threads on this site and sub-forums, it can be easy to miss things.
> 
> ...


It is easier it's true, harder when you are posting your designs as people get to judge your work. Having begun to make my own watch I can understand why companies stick to versions, or derivatives, of their previous models; less of a risk. Plus the cost of starting from scratch is phenomenal so it reduces that somewhat. A bit like Hollywood making sequels I suppose.

The problem with making your own designs is the learning curve. If you have to learn to machine as well as design it must be pretty daunting. Subcontracting CNC work can get expensive, but I would say it's the best way to see your designs come to life, especially if you don't have the time or have access to the proper machine tools. If I were to pursue a more commercial side to my watch design I would probably go that route.

I haven't heard of SW Visualize but I do find rendering can take some time.

I'll definitely keep you posted on my concept thread, I'll be starting that soon for sure.

Are you a full time designer then?


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Thank you both again!

Ginseng: I appreciate the detail you are providing here. I will have to share how any updates to the dial and indices of that GMT design go. I actually had the 3, 6, 9 markers as hollow rectangles previously but changed them to these double lines to somewhat match up with the previous chronograph concept. You are absolutely how convenient the software is ... almost too easy sometimes and you forget to get out of “computer mode” and print things out at 1:1 scale on paper. That will be my next step for sure.

Krispee: Definitely true about starting from scratch vs “sequels”, and looking forward to your concept thread! I have a consumer electronics design background, so the watches are fun as they are still gadgets. It’s really cool to see what groups like Murphy Mfg. are doing with things like their custom CNC’d Seiko and Vostok cases / bezels. I could see getting into those custom mod parts as being a easier way into it than trying to design the whole watch from the ground up.


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## Krispee (May 5, 2012)

Robbie_roy said:


> Krispee: Definitely true about starting from scratch vs "sequels", and looking forward to your concept thread! I have a consumer electronics design background, so the watches are fun as they are still gadgets. It's really cool to see what groups like Murphy Mfg. are doing with things like their custom CNC'd Seiko and Vostok cases / bezels. I could see getting into those custom mod parts as being a easier way into it than trying to design the whole watch from the ground up.


Yeah, starting from scratch has been interesting but hard work. I will have something unique for sure but it's taken me some time.
Your work sounds interesting, plenty of challenge.
I see where you're going, about customizing instead, and you already have a customer base to aim at.

PM'd you about my new concept thread, appreciate any advice you could give on the renderings etc. Still early stages as yet.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

Well, you've been making a lot more progress than me Krispee!

Been slow, but I was intrigued by cushion / "C" cases recently and wanted to explore a military-esque watch in one. These are not intended to be Seiko or any brand at this point (though you can tell there is some heavy Seiko & Pulsar RAF inspiration).

It initially started with the goal of making a chronograph and field watch, with some exploration on a sunrise / sunset indicator -- the little orange and blue hands at the 9-o'clock subdial.
























I still want to pursue the chronograph, but the field watches took the focus. First, one that has a sunrise subdial at the top, and a sunset indicator at the bottom:








I've always also been intrigued by the idea of a disc subdial also -- a lot like the Fifty Fathom Mil-Spec water indicator -- and a moonphase seemed like the logical thing to put here. So the latest progress has mostly been on this moonphase field watch.








This animation should show the idea clearer than words:








The idea is that this odd-looking disc moves daily and can more accurately show the actual quarter, crescent, and gibbous phases. Full disclosure, I have no moon phase watches for first-hand experience, but I could not find any that could represent _both _a crescent and gibbous shape:








All of the concepts together, with some dial rejects:








Long post, but thanks for reading if you've gotten this far.


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## chatman (Feb 11, 2020)

Robbie_roy said:


> Well, you've been making a lot more progress than me Krispee!
> 
> Been slow, but I was intrigued by cushion / "C" cases recently and wanted to explore a military-esque watch in one. These are not intended to be Seiko or any brand at this point (though you can tell there is some heavy Seiko & Pulsar RAF inspiration).
> 
> ...


This is a very cool concept.


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

chatman said:


> This is a very cool concept.


Thank you Chatman!


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## dgscott70 (Jul 17, 2017)

As a right-handed watch wearer I appreciate this design. Well done.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk


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## Robbie_roy (Jun 27, 2018)

dgscott70 said:


> As a right-handed watch wearer I appreciate this design. Well done.


Thanks DG! I don't have any right-handed watches myself but IMO any chrono pushers seem just as easy to use with thumbs. Glad to hear it is compelling.


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