# Has anyone got old Zenith catalogs?



## LouS

This is an idea articulated in a recent post by sempervivens. I think most of you are familiar with Jeff Stein's On The Dash site for vintage Heuers. It is a collecting resource that simply cannot be beat. One of its very many valuable features is an archive of Heuer catalogs by date (OnTheDash - The definitive guide to Heuer), so that when you are researching that odd Heuer you found on fleabay, you can find out if it is as originally offered or some mad vision of Dr. Frankenwatch.

So, how about it? Can we do the same for Zenith? Has anyone got old Zenith catalogs in any language that they can scan and post?


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## D N Ravenna

LouS said:


> This is an idea articulated in a recent post by sempervivens. I think most of you are familiar with Jeff Stein's On The Dash site for vintage Heuers. It is a collecting resource that simply cannot be beat. One of its very many valuable features is an archive of Heuer catalogs by date (OnTheDash - The definitive guide to Heuer), so that when you are researching that odd Heuer you found on fleabay, you can find out if it is as originally offered or some mad vision of Dr. Frankenwatch.
> 
> So, how about it? Can we do the same for Zenith? Has anyone got old Zenith catalogs in any language that they can scan and post?


I have some, but perhaps not old enough? The big, and I mean big question, is whether or not Zenith will let us post them. There is a copywrite (sp?) question in here, and WUS is highly sensitive of it.

Anyone know where we can get permission? My contact is out-of-date for several years.

Dan


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## sempervivens

> Has anyone got old Zenith catalogs in any language that they can scan and post?





> I have some, but perhaps not old enough? The big, and I mean big question, is whether or not Zenith will let us post them. There is a copywrite (sp?) question in here, and WUS is highly sensitive of it.


From a legal point of view, I don't see a problem here. Catalogs usually don't mention that they are copyright protected. Probably because they are meant for advertising and publicity, so the more publicity they get, the better it should be. Nobody will object.

The main problem seems to be that there are hardly any old Zenith catalogs available... (Unlike Heuer, who have an excellent tradition in catalogs).

One of the few old catalog pages I've seen for the first Zenith El Primero's, comes from a Japanese importer's catalog. I'll add it in attachment, you probably know it (found it somewhere on this forum).

Sometimes people post such excerpts from old catalogs, advertisements etc. It would be a good idea to create a separate section on the forum to group any old Zenith publicity material available.


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## Gombrich

I have nothing particularly old. 1997 is the oldest I think.

I can't see a problem with copyright, as Sempervivens says. Publicity is publicity, even if for defunct models, and probably welcome. It's not my neck on the block though.

Dave


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## Tony C.

I have a couple from the '60s. If anyone has an interest in a particular model, I will post a corresponding image if possible.

Tony C.


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## sempervivens

> I have a couple from the '60s. ...
> 
> Tony C.


Sounds very interesting ! Which years exactly, do you know or can you guess ?



> If anyone has an interest in a particular model, I will post a corresponding image


I suppose there are no El Primero's in your catalogs?

How about the Sporto ?

Catalog cover pages may also be interesting ?

Please scan what you can and feel like.


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## Tony C.

sempervivens said:


> Sounds very interesting ! Which years exactly, do you know or can you guess ?
> 
> I suppose there are no El Primero's in your catalogs?
> 
> How about the Sporto ?
> 
> Please scan what you can and feel like.


They are probably from the mid-sixties. I prefer not to scan wholesale, but here is a page showing a very attractive version of a Sporto, as well as the less common chronometre model with the cal. 40-T


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## Gombrich

We are getting interesting stuff already. I have never seen that Cal 40T chronometer in gold. I have the steel version (quite common though less so in decent condition) and it's a lovely little watch.

Dave


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## LouS

With observatory markings! Dave, that is SWEET!


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## sempervivens

>


Thanks Tony ! Very nice ! :-! How about an example of an automatic watch ?

Dave, if you tell us the production year of your watch, it would date this catalog as well (beautiful watch btw !)(excuse my ignorance, but what does the logo under the center stand for ? )


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## Tony C.

sempervivens said:


> Thanks Tony ! Very nice ! :-! How about an example of an automatic watch?


Here is a gold Captain Chronometre, and a nicely designed simple gold plaque automatic...


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## LouS

Tony C. said:


> Here is a gold Captain Chronometre, and a nicely designed simple gold plaque automatic...


Somebody just scored a gold Captain chronometer like the one above in passable shape on teh 'bay -- was it one of you fellows? I thought it was a nice snag as the bones of the watch looked OK.


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## Gombrich

sempervivens said:


> Dave, if you tell us the production year of your watch, it would date this catalog as well (beautiful watch btw !)(excuse my ignorance, but what does the logo under the center stand for ? )


The Zenith book has it as "about 1960". I can't be any more exact than that I'm afraid.

The logo is a stylized 40T. I think it's the only time Zenith has named the movement on the dial other than El Primeros or Elites.

Dave


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## Hartmut Richter

The red background catalogue from ca. 1972 has at least ten pages. They should be on the net somewhere.

Hartmut Richter


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## Tony C.

Hartmut Richter said:


> The red background catalogue from ca. 1972 has at least ten pages. They should be on the net somewhere.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


That '72 catalogue has long been available (with other brands) at this Japanese site:

Nakahiro


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## LouS

Gombrich said:


> The logo is a stylized 40T. I think it's the only time Zenith has named the movement on the dial other than El Primeros or Elites.
> 
> Dave


Dave,

Rossler suggests that watches so labeled had undergone observatory tests -- not clear to me if this is different from chronometer certification. Any idea if there is a distinction?



Tony C. said:


> That '72 catalogue has long been available (with other brands) at this Japanese site:
> 
> Nakahiro


I didn't know about that site...still mining it...wonderful reference, thanks Tony C


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## Gombrich

LouS said:


> Dave,
> 
> Rossler suggests that watches so labeled had undergone observatory tests -- not clear to me if this is different from chronometer certification. Any idea if there is a distinction?


Lou

I've mulled over the matter of the logo/dial marking in a previous thread. I reckon the Rössler book is wrong and it's just a Zenith mark but I am happy to be proved wrong.

There is a difference between observatory tests and chronometer certification; mainly that the latter is a more basic, industry standard process, while the former is more akin to the testing done in the observatory competitions. There are very few observatory certified watches around; a GP and a Seiko for sure and there are those earlyish Rolex models certified by the observatory at Kew.

Dave


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## sempervivens

Thanks Dave...now that you point it out, it does look like a stylized 40T.



> The Zenith book has it as "about 1960". I can't be any more exact than that I'm afraid.
> 
> The logo is a stylized 40T. I think it's the only time Zenith has named the movement on the dial other than El Primeros or Elites.
> 
> Dave


Thank you Tony, also for that interesting link


> That '72 catalogue has long been available (with other brands) at this Japanese site:
> 
> Nakahiro


That does look like a goldmine of watch catalogs, I had a quick look at the Omega, Longines and Heuer catalogs, and the rest of that 1972 Zenith catalog ! And Girard-Perregaux, Eterna-matic, Universal Geneve and many more ! Wonderful. Amazing site.

And thank you for the beautiful scan ! 


> Here is a gold Captain Chronometre, and a nicely designed simple gold plaque automatic...


Anobody knows which movement powers these watches ?

Your catalog does look like early '60's I guess.

According to Ranfft, Zenith cal. 40 T was only produced between 1958-1963.

Is your other catalog from the same period ?

Sometimes the date of a catalog is mentioned in code in the fine print.


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## Tony C.

sempervivens said:


> According to Ranfft, Zenith cal. 40 T was only produced between 1958-1963.
> 
> Is your other catalog from the same period ?
> 
> Sometimes the date of a catalog is mentioned in code in the fine print.


No fine print date in this one, though there are (German) references to 100 years of watchmaking, which suggests that it may well be from 1965. That would not necessarily be inconsistent with Ranfft, as even if Zenith stopped producing the 40-T Chronometres in 1963, they almost certainly would have sold them for a few years beyond that date.

Also, I don't believe for a second that they were "Observatory" chronometres. If that were the case, they would have been sold as such with great fanfare.


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## Gombrich

Tony C. said:


> Also, I don't believe for a second that they were "Observatory" chronometres. If that were the case, they would have been sold as such with great fanfare.


Agreed.


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> Anobody knows which movement powers these watches ?


There is an almost identical Zenith Captain in Rössler's book (the date is missing) with a Cal. 2522 P. I suspect that the one in the ad has the Cal. 2522 PC. I have never seen a Zenith of that age with the dial markings like the other watch in the ad - horizontal stripes, maker's name left rather than top. I suspect that, being automatic, it will also have a Cal. 2522 PC. Basically, Zenith only ever had very few automatic non-chronograph movements of their own (i.e. forget about generic ETA, etc. movements): (i) the Cal. 133/133.8 (with date: Cal. 71), (ii) the 25X2 P/PC series and (iii) the modern Elite. In 1960, after acquiring the rights to Martel's 25X2 series, they seem to have quickly phased out the less efficient bumper wind 133 series.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

> No fine print date in this one, though there are (German) references to 100 years of watchmaking, which suggests that it may well be from 1965. That would not necessarily be inconsistent with Ranfft, as even if Zenith stopped producing the 40-T Chronometres in 1963, they almost certainly would have sold them for a few years beyond that date....


Amazing ! Thank you Tony.

Very beautiful artwork.

It does make sense that for their "_100 years of watchmaking_" in 1965, they made a special effort to produce this catalog.

Thank you Hartmut for the generous information.

I wasn't aware that the 25x2 automatics were originally Martel movements (I thought they were specialized in chronographs only ?)


> There is an almost identical Zenith Captain in Rössler's book (the date is missing) with a Cal. 2522 P. I suspect that the one in the ad has the Cal. 2522 PC. I have never seen a Zenith of that age with the dial markings like the other watch in the ad - horizontal stripes, maker's name left rather than top. I suspect that, being automatic, it will also have a Cal. 2522 PC. Basically, Zenith only ever had very few automatic non-chronograph movements of their own (i.e. forget about generic ETA, etc. movements): (i) the Cal. 133/133.8 (with date: Cal. 71), (ii) the 25X2 P/PC series and (iii) the modern Elite. In 1960, after acquiring the rights to Martel's 25X2 series, they seem to have quickly phased out the less efficient bumper wind 133 series.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> I wasn't aware that the 25x2 automatics were originally Martel movements (I thought they were specialized in chronographs only ?)


No, even the Zenith lists specify "Martel" next to the Cals. 2511, 2522, 2522 P, 2522 C and 2522 PC. All subsequent calibres based on these (basically the entire 25X2 series) must have been considered to be sufficiently based on in-house innovations not to be designated as such.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

> I have a couple from the '60s. If anyone has an interest in a particular model, I will post a corresponding image if possible.
> 
> Tony C.


How about a chronograph, if possible ? 
:thanks


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## Tony C.

sempervivens said:


> How about a chronograph, if possible ?
> :thanks


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## sempervivens

Thanks Tony that is wonderful ! Very attractive chronographs !

Here is a scan of the cover of a 1998 catalog :










One of the featured watches is this Prime PocketMaster :


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## sempervivens

*Re: vintage Zenith catalog "Zenith Flash"*

Found a nice old booklet, a promotional magazine for watchmakers-jewellers, dating to 1971. Dedicated to Zenith-Movado-Mondia. There is only one page dedicated to Mondia, several pages for Movado (which was being introduced to the readers of the magazine), and the majority of the pages is dedicated to Zenith. The main attention went to the Zenith Defy. There was also a promotional competition being announced for the watchmakers-jewellers in 1971, focusing on the Zenith Defy campaign.

There also some pages concerning the Zenith Respirator, and the Zenith El Primero.

Most of it is in black and white, but there are some colour pictures in advertisements.




























Looking forward to others who want to share catalogs !


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## LouS

Bravo! What does it have on El Primero?

I have a mid-50s (estimate) catalog I just scored on the 'bay and will upload as soon as I have a moment. Maybe you all can help me date it -- it is curiously entirely devoid of a date!


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## sempervivens

*Re: vintage Zenith catalog 1971*



> Bravo! What does it have on El Primero?
> 
> I have a mid-50s (estimate) catalog I just scored on the 'bay and will upload as soon as I have a moment. Maybe you all can help me date it -- it is curiously entirely devoid of a date!


It is not unusual for a catalog to have no mention of the date (the connected price-list would have the date) but maybe in fine print on the last pages or back there are some numerological codes ? Anyway your estimation is probably spot-on.

As I tried to explain, mine is not a catalog as such, but rather a promotional magazine for watchmakers-jewellers (that's why it has a clear date). 
There is not much in it on the Zenith El Primero (two pages in a total of a little more than 20 pages). You should see these as juxtaposed.

The content is general information on the advantages of the first automatic chronograph in the world.

There are three models as illustration, one on a bracelet, the other two on a strap (the black straps are difficult to see in the scans).

As I said it is not much but I hope you will enjoy these anyway.

The title is :

_*El Primero*_
*the first automatic chronograph in the world ! with date*.


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## D N Ravenna

Thanks for the posts!

:-!

Dan


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## sempervivens

> I have a mid-50s (estimate) catalog I just scored on the 'bay and will upload as soon as I have a moment.


Looking forward to that !

Here is another page from the 1971 Zenith Flash.










Sorry for the poor quality of my simple scanner, I'll add some details :










The text mentions among other things that the movement is actually lodged in a smaller space than that of a traditional handwound chronograph, and is only 6,5 mm thick.
Note how the ad is about the Movado 'Datron' :
but the watch in the picture is still signed 'Datachron' on the dial.
It is difficult to see in the scan, so I enlarged it a bit more :










Here is also a more detailed scan of the "ten advantages" of the El Primero :


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## LouS

Can't say I've ever seen a black on Blue Datron.....


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## sempervivens

How about that 1950's catalog which you promised ?



> Bravo! What does it have on El Primero?
> 
> I have a mid-50s (estimate) catalog I just scored on the 'bay and will upload as soon as I have a moment. Maybe you all can help me date it -- it is curiously entirely devoid of a date!


:-x


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## sempervivens

today's find on a flea-market : a stack of old magazines from the 1960's and '70s. I went through all of them and found only one Zenith ad !

Here it is, it dates to 1962. "More precious, more precise", it features only gold watches and though it is a full page ad, the pictures are very small !


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## sempervivens

_Prehistoric... like your watch !_

_TAKE A LOOK THE PAST !_

_In these past ten years, you have replaced what was of common use,_
_that had gone out of fashion...What an evolution ! More elegance in dressing, faster cars, comforts, TV at home : in short, everything which you possess reflects your actual social condition, everything...except your watch ! Only ten years, but it already seems prehistoric ! The watch of today, for its style and technology, is quite different from yours. It tends to be *more automatic* and yet *thinner. *_

*....*

*FEDERATION SUISSE DES ASSOCATIONS DE FABRICANTS D'HORLOGERIE*










This ad dates to 1962.

In the same magazine, Eberhard advertises an automatic watch with date function, which was still a novelty then.

So the Swiss watchmaking industry tried to convince people to do away with watches that were ten years old, and buy a new one.

MMM...I usually wear watches that are at least thirty years old....


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## LouS

sempervivens said:


> _Prehistoric... like your watch !_
> 
> _TAKE A LOOK THE PAST !_
> 
> _In these past ten years, you have replaced all things of common use,_
> _that had gone out of fashion...What an evolution ! More elegance in dressing, faster cars, comforts, TV at home : in short, everything which you posses reflects your actual social condition, everything...except your watch ! Only ten year, but it already seems prehistoric ! The watch of today, for its style and technology, is quite different from yours. It tends to be *more automatic* andyet *thinner. *_
> 
> *....*
> 
> *FEDERATION SUISSE DES ASSOCATIONS DE FABRICANTS D'HORLOGERIE*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This ad dates to 1962.
> 
> In the same magazine, Eberhard advertises with and automatic watch with date function, which was still a novelty then.
> 
> The Swiss watchmaking industry tried to convince people in general to do away with watches that were ten years old.
> 
> MMM...I usually wear watches that are at least thirty years old....


Fascinating! The Swatch concept articulated in the 1960s!


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## sempervivens

Guys, a friend has a collection of National Geographics (1977-1994, nearly complete) and I spent the last days going through them, looking at advertisements.

On the one hand, it was interesting to see the evolution of watches. On the other hand : there was not much evolution, these were not very interesting decades.

Probably the most important novelties were the first digital quartz chronograph and the first analogue quartz chronograph, both from Seiko.

Then there was the use of new materials, sapphire crystals and titanium cases. I recognised one Baume and Mercier with a modular chronograph. 
Finally there came the kinetic watch, again from Seiko.

Really, it seems that in the period 1975-1995 very little or nothing was realised in the field of mechanical watches.

Still there were many advertisements from Baume & Mercier, Cartier, Citizen, Longines, Omega, Patek Philippe, Piaget, Rolex, and Seiko.

_But nothing from Zenith !_

Then, going through the last magazines in the pile, finally I struck upon a *Zenith* ad !

Of course I like to share it with you guys.

So here it is, from the October 1977 issue of the illustrious National Geographic


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## LouS

SV, man, that is just a provocation!:-d


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## georges zaslavsky

very interesting catalogs


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## sempervivens

Tony,

is there a Zenith Pilot in your catalogue ?

As Hartmut remarked :


> I have never seen a Zenith of that age with the dial markings like the other watch in the ad - horizontal stripes, maker's name left rather than top.


Now Dave recently spotted a Zenith Pilot with similar design. That makes one wonder if there is a Pilot like that in your catalog.










|>


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## Tony C.

sempervivens said:


> Tony,
> 
> is there a Zenith Pilot in your catalogue ?
> 
> As Hartmut remarked :
> 
> Now Dave recently spotted a Zenith Pilot with similar design. That makes one wonder if there is a Pilot like that in your catalog.


No Pilots in either of my catalogues. There are Sportos and Captains, and automatics with numerical references on the dial, but no Pilots.


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## sempervivens

you may have seen this Zenith El Primero ad before :










It's difficult to translate the title, something like :

"_The last of the right ones_"

"_The dream of founder Georges Favre-Jacot today became a reality that is unique in the world. (...)

The thinnest automatic chronograph in the world, because precision shouldn't come at the cost of elegance. The only automatic chronograph with a high frequency, created for the highest precision. Model MHF in illustration Lire 141.000. Other models start at L. 122.000. (...)_"

The model in the ad is clearly the A782 with blue dial or A781 with bordeaux dial (2000 + 1000 = 3000 were made of these). This dates the ad to around 1971.

Note : Lire 141.000 is around 73 euro. Taken into account the inflation in Italy since 1971, that could be around 1200 euro now (difficult to tell really).

Other models "starting at L. 122000" were perhaps the A787 and A788.

Notice how the 'El Primero' signature in the ad has that added curl ?


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## D N Ravenna

Cool! Thanks for posting it!
Dan


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## sempervivens

thx Dan

difficult to translate the Italian "giusti", it is a pun, here meaning both "precise" (keeping exact time) and "the righteous ones"


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## sempervivens

Here is another old Italian advertisement of the vintage Zenith El Primero A781 or A782.

It emphasizes the many advantages of "El Primero The first".
The first automatic chronograph in the world with high frequency.
No other watch can offer you so many advantages.
The only automatic chronograph with a separate second hand, that continues to work even while operating the chronograph.
(...)
The high frequency guarantees a precision with a maximum deviation of 2 seconds a day.
And all this automatically, without need of batteries.
(...)
A thinner movement than ever had been obtained for a chronograph : only 6,5 mm thick.(...)
Which makes the El Primero particularly elegant.


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## sempervivens

and here is the same watch in a French advertisement.
It addresses professionals in the watchselling business.
Interesting points : 
The ad has the new Zenith logo.
It mentions the reference number of the watch A781.
And it mentions that it is 100 m waterresistant.


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## nicola1960

La più vecchia pubblicità conosciuta: 31 ottobre 1888. ;-)

The oldest knovn advertising: October 31, year 1888.


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## sempervivens

Here are two vintage Italian Zenith catalogs, as seen on eBay.

Unfortunately I didn't buy these, so all I have to share are some tiny pics, posted by the sellers.

The first one seems to date to ca. 1970-71 :

























































The second one seems to date to 1971-72 :


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for showing all those. Interesting to see that Zenith continued making hand wound Cal. 146 watches even after the El Primero had been brought out. I always thought that they switched exclusively to automatic chronographs as soon as the production was up to meet the demand.....

Hartmut Richter


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## nicola1960

nicola1960 said:


> La più vecchia pubblicità conosciuta: 31 ottobre 1888. ;-)
> 
> The oldest knovn advertising: October 31, year 1888.
> 
> View attachment 721258


Pubblicato anche il 25 novembre 1887.
Also posted November 25, 1887.

Particolare.
Particular.


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## sempervivens

here's one more, a German brochure (1971?)

View attachment 1020661
View attachment 1020662
View attachment 1020663


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## Hartmut Richter

My word..... - my wildest dreams come true! A Ref. A386 for under 350 Euros!

In view of the fact that it features only the opening three steel models (Refs. A384, A385 and A386), it might even be a 1970 catalogue IMO.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> My word..... - my wildest dreams come true! A Ref. A386 for under 350 Euros!


For 350 euro, you can buy the brochure ;-)

Seriously, this brochure sold for 50 euro, and that's not even so much, but then again it has only 6 pages (of which you can see three for free).

But even if 700 DM in 1970 for an El Primero with original bracelet meant 2000 euro today, that 'd still be good b-)



> In view of the fact that it features only the opening three steel models (Refs. A384, A385 and A386), it might even be a 1970 catalogue IMO.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Even if you take into account the G381, G382 and G581, which are also featured, you're still right & it could also be a 1970 brochure. However 1972 is also possible. 
It looks as if the prices were changed in the brochure, so perhaps it was used for a couple of years: 1970-72?


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## vesspone

Tony C. said:


> No Pilots in either of my catalogues. There are Sportos and Captains, and automatics with numerical references on the dial, but no Pilots.


Hello Tony,
excuse me for being so late, but I would love to see the Captain models in your catalog (simple ones, non Chronometre).
Thank you so much!
Giancarlo


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## SilkeN

Maybe a bid too old but a wrist watch 1924 for ladys (German language and the price in swiss franc for silver and gold)


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