# All Sinn watches use TOP grade movements



## stasber

Just a small tidbit for anyone who might be wondering.

I had a few questions about the 556 and 856 and this is the reply I got from Sinn customer care:

What grade of movement do you use?

We use TOP-grade movements in all our watches



Can I upgrade the movement to a better grade at all?

We use TOP-grade movements in all our watches



If you use chronometer grade, can I obtain the certificate?

We do not provide COSC certification for our watches



Nice.


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## whywatch9

wiki ETA and COSC, you'll find that the customer service at Sinn actually answered your questions without contradiction. The person could have answered your questions with more thoughts, but that's common with all customer service, I suppose.

Top grade and chronometer grade are not the same thing. Only chronometer grade gets COSC cert.

if you want to find out the movement inside the watch is indeed a top-grade movement, you'll need to ask them if the movement is adjusted in 5 position or not.


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## stasber

Yup nothing wrong with that at all.


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## petethegreek

Per Sinn's website, the 856 (non UTC) uses a SW movement, SW 300-1 to be exact. Does this qualify as a TOP grade movement? Looks like one of the few models (if not only) that uses the SW movement/ie ETA clone.


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## Darkglobe

Interesting... I would still consider it top grade.

I have a sw-200 movement in my TAG, which is an exact clone of the ETA 2824, parts are all interchangeable from what I understand. The only differences I have noticed is that it is quieter and more consistent than all my ETA based watches.

I (we?) was expecting this to happen sooner than later since it is well known that ETA are part of the Swatch group, and they made it clear that eventually ETA movements would no longer be available to makers outside of the Swatch group.

Considering the movement is one of the cheaper parts of the watch, I wouldn't worry about this. The SW-300 will perform as well if not better than the 2892 in my opinion, and if not, that is why we have warranty, right? All mods made by Sinn to the ETA movements will still apply to the Sellita movements.

Sellita is not inferior in my opinion, as they are still Swiss and I believe worked with ETA somewhat to allow ETA's plans to proceed as Swatch commanded.

Edit: Found this link, looks like the SW-300 and 500 may not be exact clones as the 200 but close, I would expect improvements, I can hardly wait to read about the feedback on these movements:

http://www.ablogtowatch.com/sellita-further-targets-eta-with-the-sw300-and-sw500-watch-movements/


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## rationaltime

petethegreek said:


> Per Sinn's website, the 856 (non UTC) uses a SW movement, SW 300-1 to be exact. Does this qualify as a TOP grade movement? Looks like one of the few models (if not only) that uses the SW movement/ie ETA clone.


That is a change. Sellita offers the SW300-1 in Sprecial (elabore),
Premium (Top), and Chronometre grades. The timing specifications
for the Premium (Top) grade appear to match the specifications for
the ETA 2892A2 Top grade.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## robannenagy

If you look at this article here:

http://www.watchtime.at/archive/wt_2006_01/WT_2006_01_074.pdf

it shows both the U1 & U2 with the casebacks removed, the U2 looks like TOP grade to me, but the U1 looks like standard grade. Article is from 2006 so it U1 might have changed since then.


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## CombatMarine

whywatch9 said:


> wiki ETA and COSC, you'll find that the customer service at Sinn actually answered your questions without contradiction. The person could have answered your questions with more thoughts, but that's common with all customer service, I suppose.
> 
> Top grade and chronometer grade are not the same thing. Only chronometer grade gets COSC cert.
> 
> if you want to find out the movement inside the watch is indeed a top-grade movement, you'll need to ask them if the movement is adjusted in 5 position or not.


The only, and I mean only difference between a Top Grade movement and a Chronometer grade movement is the testing and certification certificate. Mechanically top grade and chronometer are the same exact movements.

Since Sinn watches are manufactured in Germany, I'm sure they are not interested in sending them to Switzerland just to get tested and certified. BTW, I think COSC will only certify watches made in Switzerland, and say Swiss Made on the dial, Sinn say's Made in Germany on the dial.

COSC also refuses to test or grant CSOC certification on any Japanese watches. Probably because the Seiko Spring Drive blows any Swiss movement out the water in accuracy.


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## john.6

Hi, The following was taken from the Sinn website:
*Chronometer quality*

Conditions which movements must meet to fulfill the chronometer standard. 
Watches or movements with particularly accurate running, confirmed by an official certificate, are designated chronometers. Chronometer movements have to be given a serial number to ensure that the certificate and the movement can be uniquely matched. Chronometer tests are currently carried out and documented almost exclusively by the C.O.S.C. (Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres, an independent public-service organization in Switzerland). Just recently, however, the Landesamt für Meß- und Eichwesen Thüringen (Thuringian State Office for Measurement and Calibration) in Glashütte has started offering chronometer tests as the accreditation office of the German Calibration Service in Germany.
The chronometer quality of a mechanical watch movement is determined in part by the special workmanship of certain movement components, partly by precise regulation of the watch. We only use the highest quality products provided by Swiss movement manufacturers in Sinn watches. Basically all these movements can be regulated as chronometers. If desired, our watches can be given a fine-adjustment, i.e. they are of chronometer quality, but are supplied without a certificate. We generally only provide chronometer certificates on request, on account of the disproportionately high surcharge.


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## Jcp311

My 103 st has been keeping chronometer grade time, some days +0.0, others +1.0. I could t be happier with that performance. 

On another note I just got off the phone with Matt at watchbuys and he said sinn only uses top grade movements in all their watches regardless of their origin.


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## dkbs

I recently bought a Sinn U2 from a dealer. The accuracy was +14s/day out of box. I did 24-hour continuous measurement. None result shows it has been adjusted to top grade standard. I heard others talking about the similar accuracy.

I guess Sinn bought decorated bridges and Glucydur blance wheel from ETA and assembled the movement themselves, but never carefully adjust them. Top grade is more or less a market trick.

Sinn owners are not very sensitive to accuracy. For this reason, Sinn remains a small company despite it has fair price and fancy functions.



stasber said:


> Just a small tidbit for anyone who might be wondering.
> 
> I had a few questions about the 556 and 856 and this is the reply I got from Sinn customer care:
> 
> What grade of movement do you use?
> 
> We use TOP-grade movements in all our watches
> 
> Can I upgrade the movement to a better grade at all?
> 
> We use TOP-grade movements in all our watches
> 
> If you use chronometer grade, can I obtain the certificate?
> 
> We do not provide COSC certification for our watches
> 
> Nice.


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## Beach_Bum

dkbs said:


> I recently bought a Sinn U2 from a dealer. The accuracy was +14s/day out of box. I did 24-hour continuous measurement. None result shows it has been adjusted to top grade standard. I heard others talking about the similar accuracy.
> 
> I guess Sinn bought decorated bridges and Glucydur blance wheel from ETA and assembled the movement themselves, but never carefully adjust them. Top grade is more or less a market trick.
> 
> Sinn owners are not very sensitive to accuracy. For this reason, Sinn remains a small company despite it has fair price and fancy functions.


Laughable gibberish by a butthurt Omega fanboy.


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## CMSgt Bo

Keep it on topic and treat each other with respect. Failure to do so will not end well for you.


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## David Woo

CMSgt Bo said:


> Failure to do so will not end well for you.


the wife just told me that.


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## Beach_Bum

for who?


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## autofiend

dkbs said:


> Top grade is more or less a market trick.
> 
> Sinn owners are not very sensitive to accuracy. For this reason, Sinn remains a small company despite it has fair price and fancy functions.


I'd stay away from blanket statements like this.

Top grade movements are not a "market trick". There are real differences from the lesser grades. Do your research.

And why would you assume Sinn owners are not sensitive to accuracy? Mine runs at a consistent +4 a day and most of us here have experienced something similar.


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## Takemusu

For what it's worth my 856 UTC runs about +1 second per week. It is by far my most accurate watch, surpassing easily my Omega Aqua Terra CHRONOMETER. Certificate or no, my Sinn runs far better than I could or should expect.


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## LH2

I've not been too impressed with my (3) Sinns accuracy, Top grade movement or not. Two of them have been +8-10 s/d, which is decent, but the EZM3 is closer to +20 s/d. 

Hoping it settles down, or I'll have to get it regulated, which is always disappointing on a brand new watch.


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## apnk

LH2 said:


> I've not been too impressed with my (3) Sinns accuracy, Top grade movement or not. Two of them have been +8-10 s/d, which is decent, but the EZM3 is closer to +20 s/d.
> 
> Hoping it settles down, or I'll have to get it regulated, which is always disappointing on a brand new watch.


Interesting, my experience has been the opposite in the 4 (3 U1's and 1 EZM3) that i've owned. All have been around +3 to 5 secs.


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## rationaltime

We report about magnetized watches pretty often. Yet members
who have been around here for a while seem to forget about the
possibility or at least forget to report that they tried demagnetizing
to slow down an escapement running a little fast.

Perhaps it is time to remind them. Strong magnetic sources might
be encountered in shipping or traveling. 


Thanks,
rationaltime


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## Rich-L

My U1 is super accurate, often perfect over 24 hours intervals. EZM10 is far less so, -15 or so.... Disappointed in that watch's performance....


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## Jcp311

Minus 15? Wow...for a watch at that price point Id expect better. How long have you had it?


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## dnslater

My 556i has been very accurate, better than my chronometer grade Planet Ocean. Just checked it after running for 45 days continuously, and it had gained around 1 minute, which translates to less than 1 second per day. I've always had good luck with Sinn movements.


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## svorkoetter

dnslater said:


> My 556i has been very accurate, better than my chronometer grade Planet Ocean. Just checked it after running for 45 days continuously, and it had gained around 1 minute, which translates to *less* than 1 second per day. I've always had good luck with Sinn movements.


One minute is 45 days is more than one second per day. About 1.33 seconds per day in fact. Unacceptable! ;-)


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## dnslater

svorkoetter said:


> One minute is 45 days is more than one second per day. About 1.33 seconds per day in fact. Unacceptable! ;-)


Thanks. Needed coffee I guess. Did the math in reverse in my head. Will throw the sub par Sinn in the trash.


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## dkbs

My impression of Sinn's quality is mostly hit but sometimes with significant miss. Or large standard deviation in a scientific language. But the real problem has nothing to do with accuracy. People often tend to excuse themselves. For example, magnet field is the one got the most blame.

There must be a reason when customer complains. Find the reason and learn from the failure is the most effective way to be a great watchmaker. However, complains are often earmarked as troll at here.



dnslater said:


> My 556i has been very accurate, better than my chronometer grade Planet Ocean. Just checked it after running for 45 days continuously, and it had gained around 1 minute, which translates to less than 1 second per day. I've always had good luck with Sinn movements.


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## CMSgt Bo

I don't think people are making excuses or assigning blame. I think they are looking for answers and magnetism is on the short list of common things to check for. 

My new car pulls to the left, should I check tire inflation before I blame the manufacture for shoddy quality control?


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## Jcp311

I'm certainly not in the business of making excuses for bad QC due to sentiment, or anything else for that matter. I've also not seen (at least recently) anyone bringing a QC complaint who's been labeled a troll here.

IMO sinn did seem to go through a rough patch with regards to QC for a few models a few years ago, but few watchmakers don't have these problems at one time or another (omega anybody?).



dkbs said:


> My impression of Sinn's quality is mostly hit but sometimes with significant miss. Or large standard deviation in a scientific language. But the real problem has nothing to do with accuracy. People often tend to excuse themselves. For example, magnet field is the one got the most blame.
> 
> There must be a reason when customer complains. Find the reason and learn from the failure is the most effective way to be a great watchmaker. However, complains are often earmarked as troll at here.


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## freight dog

My 857 UTC Testaf has been +15 spd since I bought it about 10 months ago. At least it has been consistent.


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## Rich-L

Jcp311 said:


> Minus 15? Wow...for a watch at that price point Id expect better. How long have you had it?


I agree completely.....

This story has a happy ending though - and a lesson learned! I bought it used here. And the watch was just not keeping good time. With plenty of warranty left, I contact Rob at Watchbuys. He suggested it might have been magnetized. So I bought a demagnetizer off eBay, and BOOM 24 hours later -1sec... That I can deal with, and in line with my U1. WOOHOO!!!! so so happy..... !

So, I am a fan of the demagnetizer now!!! Great $11 spent !


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## DaveandStu

Top stuff with the de magnetizer Rich....my EZM10 ran fast till I let it settle in different positions..now is back to plus 4 ...would love to get it to plus 1 though...Dave


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## Rich-L

DaveandStu said:


> Top stuff with the de magnetizer Rich....my EZM10 ran fast till I let it settle in different positions..now is back to plus 4 ...would love to get it to plus 1 though...Dave


Was completely thrilled with that outcome Dave, just night and day difference with how it runs. Now 48 hours -2 secs total...


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## Robertus

Rich-L said:


> I agree completely.....
> 
> This story has a happy ending though - and a lesson learned! I bought it used here. And the watch was just not keeping good time. With plenty of warranty left, I contact Rob at Watchbuys. He suggested it might have been magnetized. So I bought a demagnetizer off eBay, and BOOM 24 hours later -1sec... That I can deal with, and in line with my U1. WOOHOO!!!! so so happy..... !
> 
> So, I am a fan of the demagnetizer now!!! Great $11 spent !


Which demagnetizer did you buy? Did you do the demagnetizing with case back on its place or not?


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## DrGonzo

Question: is the antimagnetic feature on, for example, the 856 effective at preventing this issue? Or is it more of a gimmick?


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## Lomaing 103 st

I read on another forum that Sinn will use Sellita SW500 in their chrono instead of the Valjoux 7750... For the moment, the sinn 103st is not impacted, but I found on sinn.de that the 903 is beating with a sw500.

Do you know why Sinn will no longer use 7750? Do you have info about this choice? Maybe it's not a choice but only because SG doesn't want to provide 7750 any longer to Sinn? Do you think this could decrease Sinn watches quality?

Any info is welcome!!!

Regards,


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## douglasf13

I wound up and strapped on my new 556i 13 days ago, and it's run +14 seconds in that time. So, just over a second per day, which is about exactly what I want in a watch, since being slightly fast is better than slightly slow. I'm not sure any of my Rolex or Omega watches performed any better, and neither did any of my other ETA 2824-based watches.


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## Flighty7T34

I have an Otto Frei Timegrapher which I run all of my watches on prior to their entering the on wrist rotation. The Timegrapher pedistal has 8 stations in the 360 degree rotation, Each non Quartz watch I own displays a different +/- per second rate at each stations,,,, Often, however, the 180 degree opposite station (for example face up and face down) display the same +/- seconds per day. However, there are certain watches which have rather large swings in certain stations. For example one watch shows +16 seconds in 45 degree face up crown up attitude while in pure face up the watch will purr along at +1 second per day, Go figure...

When using the Timegrapher, it is important to let the watch sit in a specific station for at least 4 hours,,,, I wind the movement early in the morning set it on the pedestal and do a reading at noon,,, then move it to the next station and do the reading in the evening and so on,,, One ends up with 8 readings, one for each of the 8 rotations of the pedistal.

The Timegrapher is a fun tool to use but does require a method and routine to use it somewhat properly. 

This all said, it is the time a watch keeps, while on the wrist that is most important when all is said and done.


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## E.F. Schwerin

Flighty7T34 said:


> When using the Timegrapher, it is important to let the watch sit in a specific station for at least 4 hours,,,, I wind the movement early in the morning set it on the pedestal and do a reading at noon,,, then move it to the next station and do the reading in the evening and so on,,, One ends up with 8 readings, one for each of the 8 rotations of the pedistal.


Could you explain why? I don't think people typically keep their arm in the same position for hours at a time but I'm sure I'm missing the real reason. Thanks!


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## Flighty7T34

Sure.... what the Timegrapher shows in near instant time is the DRAMATIC spurious variations associated with the movement of the pedestal from one station to the next. A slight bump or change in station of the watch on the Timegrapher can send some movements into berserk mode.... Depending on the watch, the “settling” of the movement to a near constant +/- seconds/day is like watching a slowly diminishing sine wave. So frankly, I have better things to do with my time than to sit and fixate on the Timegrapher and have found that if you let the watch set for a while it does stabilize. So using the 4 hour method you get perhaps 2 or three stations per day in my case.

But yes you are correct.... the arm is often in motion and the variances of the movement are thus always in play. That is why I mention that the best thing to do is see how the watch keeps time on your wrist.... 

Oh and I did forget, to mention this.... in the chronograph world the time keeping does vary with the chrono ON vs OFF just to make matters even more complex. Such fun.


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## hk23

I bought an EZM 3 from Watchbuys in July, and have been very surprised at how accurate it's been. It's been running 0s a day vs. time.gov, with 12 - 16 hours of daily wear and storing it CH overnight. This is more accurate than any quartz watch I've owned, besides the clock on my smartphone, which is synced with the carrier's network. I experimented storing it CH, DH, 9H, and 3H overnight, and found that storing it CH results in its keeping the best time.

When did Sinn start regulating its movements to such a high standard? I bought a 144 new 20 years ago, and a 156 used around the same time, and both of those ran 10s - 15s a day off. Would I be able to expect the same or similar level of accuracy with any new Sinn as I've experienced with my EZM 3?


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## Flighty7T34

Well hk23 that is great news on you EZM 3's accuracy on the wrist. I have about 13 Sinn's now and only the 104 ST SA and the EZM 10 and EZM 13 are running at that level of accuracy. Perhaps the EZM's are given more attention by SINN for time regulation?


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## hk23

Flighty7T34 said:


> Well hk23 that is great news on you EZM 3's accuracy on the wrist. I have about 13 Sinn's now and only the 104 ST SA and the EZM 10 and EZM 13 are running at that level of accuracy. Perhaps the EZM's are given more attention by SINN for time regulation?


That's a lot of Sinns! You don't happen to have a YT channel, Time Out Watches, do you? If that's your channel, we've chatted in the comments about how the EZM 3 and 13 really don't need arabics on the dial. It's good that Sinn is going the extra mile now in strictly regulating at least some of their models. But they were a lot less expensive in 2000 when I got my 144 and 156. I believe I paid less than $700 each for them, and the EZM 1 was going for around $1000 new IIRC. Would that I had kept both the 144 and 156 until now -- and not just because of the increase in price; they were both great watches.


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## Flighty7T34

Nope no YT channel... and going way back, my first Chrono was the 1972 Omega Speedmaster Moonwatch which cost then about $700 On bracelet.


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## Archer

Flighty7T34 said:


> Sure.... what the Timegrapher shows in near instant time is the DRAMATIC spurious variations associated with the movement of the pedestal from one station to the next. A slight bump or change in station of the watch on the Timegrapher can send some movements into berserk mode.... Depending on the watch, the "settling" of the movement to a near constant +/- seconds/day is like watching a slowly diminishing sine wave. So frankly, I have better things to do with my time than to sit and fixate on the Timegrapher and have found that if you let the watch set for a while it does stabilize. So using the 4 hour method you get perhaps 2 or three stations per day in my case.


When you change positions of the microphone stand, you do need to let it sit for a time - this is referred to as stabilization time. However it is measured in seconds, not hours. At most you should only need to let the movement stabilize for a minute before taking the reading. If you want to go crazy and be super extra cautious, let it sit for 2 minutes. Any rate or amplitude difference due to the movement of the watch would have long settled out by then. Letting it sit for 4 hours is certainly not needed, and doesn't conform to any watchmaking standards.

For example, ETA lists the stabilization time for the ETA 2824-2 at 20 seconds.

Cheers, Al


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## Flighty7T34

Yes Archer, you are correct. "Most" movements tend to stabilize within about 2 minutes after a position change. But, as I said earlier, I do not wish to devote a constant 20+ minutes of supervisory time to the timegrapher. So I get two readings per day per position. Once in the early AM, then wind the movement, then again in the evening, then change the position of the Timegrapher. So I get about 2 data points per position, one with a near full wind and another 24 hours later... If the watch is a chronograph, (and most of mine are), I do not keep track of the timekeeping with the chronograph engaged or operational.


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## Archer

Flighty7T34 said:


> Yes Archer, you are correct. "Most" movements tend to stabilize within about 2 minutes after a position change. But, as I said earlier, I do not wish to devote a constant 20+ minutes of supervisory time to the timegrapher. So I get two readings per day per position. Once in the early AM, then wind the movement, then again in the evening, then change the position of the Timegrapher. So I get about 2 data points per position, one with a near full wind and another 24 hours later... If the watch is a chronograph, (and most of mine are), I do not keep track of the timekeeping with the chronograph engaged or operational.


If this is your personal preference, that's fine. However you stated this was necessary in a previous post...



Flighty7T34 said:


> When using the Timegrapher, it is important to let the watch sit in a specific station for at least 4 hours,,,,


Not only is it not necessary, but it won't really give you the most meaningful information. Watches are typically timed at 2 states of wind - full wind and 24 hours after full wind. The standard that watch companies set out for full wind timing give a 60 minute window in which to complete those measurements. You fully wind the watch, and complete the timing checks between 30 and 90 minutes after completing the full wind. This is to remove any effects due to the state of wind (lack of isochronism), as that is fully measure in the second set of tests that are done 24 hours after full wind.

So again if this is how you personally prefer to use your timing machine, that's great, but it doesn't reflect any current watchmaking standard.

And just a note that if you watch hasn't stabilized within a 1-2 minute time frame after moving the microphone stand to the next position, then there's something going on with the movement.

Cheers, Al


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## Flighty7T34

Boy Al you are a fountain of information. Thanks... Yes it is a personal preference. I do appreciate your advice. I personally do not like babysitting the Timegrapher. And in fact, I mostly rely upon the +/- seconds per day after a one week on the wrist rotation. There is a fine, and rather top end device made by Weishi which has an automated pedestal and puts the watch thru the paces for all of the various attitudes... Timings are kept in a computer station and various algorithms are used to estimate the accuracy of the watch. Nice tech. In the case of the Weishi “fine” equates to expensive. That machine would be the cat’s meow but I have no desire to jump into that pond.


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## Archer

Flighty7T34 said:


> Boy Al you are a fountain of information. Thanks... Yes it is a personal preference. I do appreciate your advice. I personally do not like babysitting the Timegrapher. And in fact, I mostly rely upon the +/- seconds per day after a one week on the wrist rotation. There is a fine, and rather top end device made by Weishi which has an automated pedestal and puts the watch thru the paces for all of the various attitudes... Timings are kept in a computer station and various algorithms are used to estimate the accuracy of the watch. Nice tech. In the case of the Weishi "fine" equates to expensive. That machine would be the cat's meow but I have no desire to jump into that pond.


No worries - glad to help.

Did a quick search - I assume you are referring to the 9900A, with the automated microphone stand. Seems to sell for a little over $1000 US.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but these Chinese Weishi machines are sort of named after Witschi, which is a Swiss company that produces the gold standard for testing equipment for the watch industry, both in watch manufacturing, and for after sales service.

My Witschi timing machine was about $6k back in 2009...just as a comparison, and it doesn't come with an automated microphone stand. But I service/restore watches for a living, so as part of setting up a shop that can cost $80k, it's only a small piece of the puzzle.

Cheers, Al


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## Flighty7T34

Yes Al I do understand that the tools of the trade are dear price-wise. My local watchsmith has the Swiss model, I really never knew the number, but was shocked when he told me the price he paid for it. The thing is amazing to view in action as the stand articulates all by itself. The printout is pretty cool as well but rather cryptic to the uninitiated. 

Hey good to know there is a watch smith here in the Sinn forum! Luckily all of mine are humming along well. I did have a wee bit of a problem with a 103's calendar function. I probably screwed it up having the time between 9 and 3 when changing the date... sigh.... Sent it in to RGM and they fixed it promptly and refilled the case with AR and new seals and Ar capsule as well...


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