# Anyone else disappointed after seeing Grand Seiko's in the flesh?



## gte355u124

After much anticipation, I finally made it to the NYC seiko boutique. After countless hours spent researching my next watch (a GS), and reading countless forums of how amazing and awesome the grand seiko was, I couldn't wait. But something strange happened when I walked in the store and started looking at them: I felt let down. I felt as though they looked the same as most watches $5k and lower. I felt I could not see a huge difference between the normal dress seiko's and dress grand seikos! I know, heresy right!? But that was my experience. The only watch I could say I wasn't that let down by was the titanium gs diver. But even that didn't "Wow" me. Is it just me??? Could it be the hype was overwhelming and the actual product could not match it??


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## pavilion

The overall design of GS is classic (or plain looking), nothing will really catch your attention at the first glance, I believe this explains why you felt let down.
But GS is famous for its accuracy (on par with Chronometer), extremely high level of polishing and detail (you must see through a loupe), 36000 bps (on some models). In my opinion, GS is more like "own it, feel it and appreciate it", not really the one "love at first sight"


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## chris slack

I agree with the op,did nothing for me either,looked just like a Seiko !! I expected so much more after reading all the hype.....


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## b00st4ddicted

I know exactly what you guys are talking about. My first glance at GS and my thoughts are blah, they look exactly like my $200 Citizen. I went through 6 total GSs and still have 2 left at the moment and 1 being a $4000 quartz. Somehow and somewhat I've always missed my GSs when they are gone, and I keep on coming back to get a GS. I went through Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Nomos, GO, Panerai, JLC, Armin Strom, Bell & Ross, Bremont, and the list goes on. What really got me is the attention to detail that Seiko puts in. It really changes when you wear one and feel it under different light condition. It blinds me even at night time. Even the clarify of the crystal amazes me. Check this video out.


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## Urs Haenggi

I was a bit disappointed. I think I let the hype on this website get me too excited. When I got it, I was very happy with the feel and quality, but ultimately, it just looked like any other Seiko that I could get from Seiya for a few hundred.


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## Alden

I got a Baby Grand (SARB035) and to me, it's a Grand for way less than a grand.

If you know what I mean.


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## benjib

I cant relate, I loved the Grand Seiko in person. You need an eye for the details.


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## samanator

Part of why I own the GS diver is this reason. Not really let down by the line, but more that many of the collection pieces are not my style. I'm a sport watch only person and the GS collection has very few options for me. When I buy non-sport watches they do not stay around long and they hardly get worn. I will say the GS diver, at least in the Titanium version, is actually lighter than most Titanium watches while still feeling solid. It has some very unique hands that while not on the level of the dressier GS's they are very different and well suited. While the GS diver does not have the WR or the GMT function of the Seiko 600 Marine Master it is a far more wearable piece than the 600MM and far more polished in quality and finish. Accuracy and power reserve is a wash between the two based on ownership of both since 2008. The dial and bezel on the GS diver is very well executed. The size of this watch is utilized to the max for readability. This is why it remains a favorite. The only other GS I have considered is the GMT sport models like the SBGE015 and SBGE001. The rest of the GS line are nice, but not for me. If your looking for a Rolex Datejust II/Explorer/EXP II, Tudor North Face, Omega AT ...competitor you will not find one in the GS line.


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## PrinceT

I initially felt
That way too, also felt it was a tad too small for my liking when I saw them in person. Even more disappointed after seeing the box and how it came in. But thn I stayed to feel and try the watch and Low and behold it really grew on me. The high polishing or zaratsu as they call it is amazing. The curved seconds hand etc. The movement... Wow. With that said, my mm300 looks better and feels better than most of the grand seikos I've tried. 


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## LordBrettSinclair

My main concern isn't existing models, but the direction of travel. That ceramic.... _thing_ they showed off at Basel was deeply wrong.

Still covet one of the GMT sport models.


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## Tseg

I'm jelly you can appreciate a Seiko as much as a GS... and not discern a difference. If I was there I'd have thousands more in my bank account.

Since a GS will not get noticed by anyone, much less given accolades by the casual observer, the decision whether it sings to me far and above the Seikos that are 5-10 times less expensive is a very personal perception. I really liked mine the day I got it, but bought it sight unseen. My love for it grew over the next 6 months. Many other watches I've bought have the 'honeymoon' feeling wear off by then and are appreciated less over time. Not my GS.


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## no name no slogan

I've never been to a GS boutique, but I would be curious about what kind of lighting is used for viewing the watches. I just picked up my second GS and both have dials that look completely flat under most lighting sources. However, under certain indoor spotlighting or sunlight, the most amazing dial patterns and textures appear. It's like getting several different dials in the same watch, but only the owner really notices as he experiences different light sources. This may be something that people quickly viewing watches in a shop never experience or come to appreciate.

Here's my brand new SBGR089 for an example:









Under 90% of lighting, this dial is flat brown. But hit the right light and this amazing texture comes out. I haven't seen this kind of effect with any other watchmaker.


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## Jim Smyth

I love sport watches and have had a bunch of Rolexs. The first time I seen the SBGA031 I fell in love. Couldnt wait to see it in person and when I did I was literally blown away. Received my first one in December and havent put it down yet. Honeymoon is still in full swing.

But with saying that most of the other GS I see on the forum doesnt do much for me style wise. They are plainer but I get why guys like them. The accuracy is off the charts and the high polish is very nice.


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## davelemi

I'm quite happy with my Grand Seiko and plan to acquire a SD and Hi Beat in the near future. The quality and level of detail goes far beyond other brands at similar price points. To each their own and that's fine.


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## Ahriman4891

I was not disappointed, but I did not have unrealistic expectations either. It's just a watch, they can polish it only so much, Zaratsu technique or not. Liked them enough to buy one first time I saw them.

As others have said, your appreciation grows over time as you notice subtler details like the dial texture in different lighting conditions, the tiny rainbows reflected off the hour indices, the clever touches like mirror-polished hands on a silver dial and brushed ones on a black dial... I don't tire of staring at the self-dater case which may be the purest expression of Seiko's "grammar of design", and it doesn't even resort to having any brushed surfaces for added interest. I love that both my watches deviate < 5 seconds per year -- sure, it makes no real difference in my daily activities, but it's a testament to the overall quality of GS.  I certainly appreciate the unassuming dimensions and the comfort.

My GS are perfect boring watches, and they made almost all other watches boring to me.


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## Lokvo

I personally had an opposite experience, having purchased my first GS online and collecting in person a few weeks later. The pictures actually didn't do it justice, when I first handled it I was taken back and amazed by the albeit simple yet flawless design, finishing and out of this world build quality. I do understand however why initial impressions especially if viewed from behind jeweler shop display cases, they may seem too simple. But the devil is in the details and if you have one in your hands and can peer at it from close range, all the subtle qualities slowly come to the fore and this quiet/discreet yet astounding quality of a GS only increases with ownership time. It's not about shock and awe with a GS but an ever slow burn.


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## ten13th

no name no slogan said:


> Here's my brand new SBGR089 for an example:
> 
> View attachment 7692146


Nice pickup.

BTW, I visited NYC boutique last September, lighting is freaking horrible, way too dark.


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## no name no slogan

ten13th said:


> BTW, I visited NYC boutique last September, lighting is freaking horrible, way too dark.


If this is the case, I would suggest that anyone else visiting this boutique request to see the watches outdoors in sunlight. They will likely look 100% different than in the store.


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## Uhrmensch

To echo what others have said, going in with unrealistic expectations could possibly leave you underwhelmed - especially viewing one for the first time in "suboptimal" lighting - and yes, the magic really is in the detail and dial nuance, so more of a slow burner perhaps. Having said that, I was very pleasantly surprised when mine arrived (purchased unseen); I expected it to be nice of course, but it really popped and just worked for me. BUT, my expectations were also commensurate with what I paid, so when I did notice two fairly minor inconsistencies in the finishing (shock horror, GS aren't perfect after all), it didn't particularly put me off. And now for the gratuitous shot already posted on other threads this morning... :-d Cheers


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## Alden

Most good jewelry and watch boutiques use spot lights over the cases. 

Really makes the merchandise sparkle and pop.


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## Domos

There's a reason the snowflake and the colorful limiteds are very popular. People are getting bored at the same old designs like the Calatrava. When quality doesn't cut it design will. That's the nature of this hobby.


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## gte355u124

Funny, I looked at a bunch in the store, but I also looked at that 50th edition anniversary blue chrono, and the thing was overly blingy! Literally blinding me, which seemed odd for a subtle design company.

Yes...yes, maybe it was the lighting issue.


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## WatchMeWork

I'm headed on business this month and will be right next to an AD for Grand Seiko. I was planning on checking them out in the flesh as I have been obsessing over them for some time but have yet to see one in person. I'm favoring the more subtle SBGA003 for an everyday business watch and looking forward to seeing how they feel on the wrist. 

What pulled me in was the overwhelming nerd status of the spring drive. I work for the largest helicopter company in the US so I've always been interested in 'how things work' 

Will definitely post my findings when I get back.


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## John Price

My experience was rather the opposite. From all that I'd read about GS here on WUS I was pretty sure they were over hyped. But when I handled them at the local dealer I could see and feel what the excitement was about. Before that I was thinking of maybe getting another Omega or even a Rolex but instead put a Snowflake on layaway.


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## NismoDan

I bought my GS from a Japanese auction site based more on the 9F movement and Titanium case/bracelet than anything else, but was very happily surprised when I discovered the dial texture that really takes some investigation to notice:
(borrowed pic):








I recently tried on another GS, but having grown used to my current dial almost any matte dial just doesn't sing to me nearly as much.
Trying a few other brands lately has really made me appreciate my piece even more.


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## mkawakami

It's funny, I felt the same way when I tried on my first GS (a snowflake). But now, I can't believe that I ever felt that way. Maybe it was the lights or the plastic on the watch; I don't know. But now I own an SBGR083, and the finish is head and shoulders above anything else I have ever tried on. That includes my IWC and my incoming JLC.


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## gte355u124

blast! sounds like I should have just got one! The best watches are the ones that age gracefully on your wrist with increasing appreciation every day! I already made my watch purchase for this year....so I will have to wait till next year.


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## Whitegene

I kind of understand what you are saying. If you just take a quick look, some GS will look similar to other Seikos. But upon closer look, you can see the detail and the amazing dial. But yeah, to each his own. Some love GS, some think it is over hyped.


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## snakeeyes

Urs Haenggi said:


> I was a bit disappointed. I think I let the hype on this website get me too excited. When I got it, I was very happy with the feel and quality, but ultimately, it just looked like any other Seiko that I could get from Seiya for a few hundred.


yup...kind of like how Rolex looks like any other 'steinhart'


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## William Ayin

A grand seiko boutique believe it or not was the first boutique i ever went to as a watch enthusiast, the hype that this forum generated for grand seiko made me very excited but after viewing them i was ultimately left underwhelmed as they had an almost godlike reputation on the forums, afterwards i checked out 4 other boutiques and it was only then that i realised how great the grand seikos' finishings were especially compared to 3 other brands (i will not name as i don't want to spark controversy) that were very underwhelming especially after seeing those particular brand's prices.


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## Mediocre

I have never actually encountered a GS in person


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## BostonWatcher

My GS is the only watch that a neighbor that is not into watches ever complimented me on in 25 years of knowing him. Even he could see the quality from across the table. It's in the details and precision work that some may not be able to see, discern, or appreciate, but that's good for us GS owners....we sure don't want too many out there.

Hey, some people love Aunt Jemima and can't stand real maple syrup.


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## Tseg

wschofield3 said:


> Hey, some people love Aunt Jemima and can't stand real maple syrup.


WHAT???? Aunt Jemima is not real maple syrup?????

I'm distraught. I think I need to buy a watch to make me feel better.


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## BostonWatcher

Tseg said:


> WHAT???? Aunt Jemima is not real maple syrup?????
> 
> I'm distraught. I think I need to buy a watch to make me feel better.


Agreed, you should! Just got my SBGH001 in yesterday and again, I'm in love! No one does dial and hand/indice detail and precision better at any price IMHO!


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## Schleepii

You know, that's the reason why I bought a Spring Drive. Of course the GS feels like any other watch in this price range and even though they put a lot of effort into this, there's other brands which are just as good. BUT - with a Spring Drive, there's always something special.


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## Tseg

Schleepii said:


> You know, that's the reason why I bought a Spring Drive. Of course the GS feels like any other watch in this price range and even though they put a lot of effort into this, there's other brands which are just as good. BUT - with a Spring Drive, there's always something special.


Likewise, there is no other 36,000 BPH GMT watch made in the world other than the GS.


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## mleok

I've seen Grand Seikos several times now in the metal, and while they seem very well finished, I've not been particularly impressed with the precision of the bracelets. For me, the quality of the bracelet is much more important in an everyday watch than that last level of refinement in the finish. On my Vacheron Constantin Overseas for example, the finish is impeccable, but the bracelet is also a work of art, in that it feels like liquid metal, able to articulate smoothly, but with essentially no slack in any other directions.

I'm willing to accept that under magnification, one can see the quality of the hands and markers on a Grand Seiko, but I'm not sure I can really perceive that with my naked eye. Perhaps that's also a question of lighting, as the harsh lighting in a boutique might not be the best way to fully appreciate a subtly finished watch.

It's perhaps for this reason that I seem to like the dressier Grand Seiko models, like this 130th Anniversary edition, which look great on a leather strap, and I wish they would have much such dress watches in their regular lineup.


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## mui.richard

I got my first and only GS sight unseen...see I wanted the SBGR051 which is essentially the entry model for GS with a pure mechanical movement. They no longer have that in stock locally so I seeked the help of a friend. With his connection, I was able to get one within a couple weeks shipped over to Hong Kong by the MD of Seiko Tokyo!

When I got the watch it was just that, a watch. The style is plain and since I've seen photos of it beforehand so this much was expected. So I got home and had the bracelet sized and put it on the first time...balance was good. Watch was not overly heavy but had a substantial weight. Bracelet wore soft and supple, if you can use that to describe a stainless steel bracelet. Still nothing special...

But as soon as the light from the chandelier in my living room hit it I knew it has more than first meets the eye...the hands were cut and polished with such precision they looked like they're made out of glass! The renhaut was high polished as well, coupled with the reflections from the hands and the indices the face of the watch literally sparkled!

So yes, while the styling didn't give me that wow factor like some other pieces that I own, it will slowly show its merits if you can take your time and appreciate the minute details.










Oh, and since this GS is my work watch for the last month or so, I noticed that it's actually less prone to scratches and hairlines compared to my Rolexes. Not sure if that has anything to do with their Zaratsu polishing or not but despite my rough handling and a few knocks on doors it somehow survived them all and still look as new.

a watch is meant to be worn


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## djsick

It is interesting topic, because I also had the same impression of disappointment the first time I when to a GS shop. I even opened a thread on this forum (it was about a year ago). But now I know I was wrong. I think there are a lot of factors that can be the reason. 

1) Lighting : The shop lighting (it was in a Frankfurt retailer). It might case, it shines a little too much (for my taste). 

2) Models : the few models that were there, (5 to 8 model only) were not representative of the GS range. 

a => As someone also wrote here on this thread, I also had the impression that GS were too small. (and I am not the kind of person who like big watch). I think it depends on 2 things. There are models that looks small and some not, their design make them look smaller or bigger (even if their diameter are the same or almost). So it is important to have a broader choice to understand that. The other reason might be that after looking at hundred of close up pics on internet you expect it to be bigger.

b => Also some highier end GS ( nicer bracelet ; the one made in titanium ; the dome sapphire ; limited edition ; etc ) are definitely different in term of wow factor than lower end models... They cost more but there are something else IMO. As someone said here also, the bracelet of highier end are definitly something else if you have the budget. 

I would advise people to travel to Japan to buy a GS and find the model that really please you. I also spent months looking at GS on the internet only to find out that in real there are something else even more amazing but I think it is important to look at many other models (not only the few that you aimed at) to understand their beauty and not stay focus the model you have been dreaming for months on the internet.


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## samanator

mleok said:


> I've seen Grand Seikos several times now in the metal, and while they seem very well finished, I've not been particularly impressed with the precision of the bracelets. For me, the quality of the bracelet is much more important in an everyday watch than that last level of refinement in the finish. On my Vacheron Constantin Overseas for example, the finish is impeccable, but the bracelet is also a work of art, in that it feels like liquid metal, able to articulate smoothly, but with essentially no slack in any other directions.


Granted Your VC does have one of the top three bracelets made IMO. GO also does a good job that extends even into the link removal process. These are generally two times the price of most GS based on retail prices so this must be taken into consideration. Most of the newer Rolex are pretty good at closer to a GS price range. Some of the Omegas are good, but not stellar.


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## clarken

I'm holding a GS highbeat nice watch but I didn't buy it.

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## mleok

samanator said:


> Granted Your VC does have one of the top three bracelets made IMO. GO also does a good job that extends even into the link removal process. These are generally two times the price of most GS based on retail prices so this must be taken into consideration. Most of the newer Rolex are pretty good at closer to a GS price range. Some of the Omegas are good, but not stellar.


Admittedly, the VCO bracelet has probably spoiled me. I just find the exceptional finish of the GS coupled with the lackluster bracelet precision to be incongruous, and I wish they improved this aspect of their watches, since many of their designs are everyday as opposed to dress watches that I would prefer to wear on a bracelet.


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## Jabar Braverman

I really have no idea what the OP is talking about. I've only seen GSs in the flesh once, at a department store in Tokyo, but I was very impressed. The fit and finish easily equaled many of the more expensive Swiss watches on display nearby. (The lighting was just normal department store lighting, much less favorable than in most high-end watch boutiques, but the Blancpains and APs nearby were lit the same way.)

The Snowflake was my grail watch before that visit, and it remains that. I wasn't ready to spend that much that day, so I bought an SDGM001 instead. Very happy with it.


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## gatormac

I think as others have stated, it depends on how realistic your expectations are. I have had the same feeling about other watch brands- Rolex, VC, JLC, etc. when viewing them in the stores, particularly in my early days of watch enthusiasm. After all, they are just watches. After you get past the sparkling internet photos and have it in the flesh, it is just a watch. There is only so much you can do. Your liking of the style is probably going to have a bigger impact on you, and that is of course subjective. Lighting does have a lot to do with it. I recall two Rolex dealers- when I went into one I always struggled to keep myself from buying. They all looked magnificent. Then I'd go look at the same watch in another store and be underwhelmed. 

That said, I was not disappointed with my GS. I also find the bracelet to be outstanding compared to most makes. VC is pretty tough competition! Rolex is another known for great bracelets with great sizing/adjustment innovations over the last several years. After those two, I'd put GS bracelets up against just about anyone.


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## 1212FU

I have owned 4 grand seiko and 2 High Beats 001 - 015GMT hi beat and 1 Spring drives Snowflake 011 & 1 GS 051.

First you need to ensure you go to a proper Seiko shop ... the reason is if you go to a lousy dealer then you will get a lousy service and you have your stupid plastic wrappers and sticker on the watch...

For me is always the country dealer... wear it proper whether you have the intention to buy or not. Some people will just go to the shop and look thru the glass case or worst thru the windows ... 
Next is use a reference watch ie. datejust ? seamaster ? or what ?

for any watch 5k-10usd - GS is the best offering ... no nonsense ... 

I also do have lots of collection to name above USD 10 - 15k which GS might still win a spot. Ie. SBGH001/005 SBGA011 / SBJG005/015 etc ..


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## 1212FU

gatormac said:


> I think as others have stated, it depends on how realistic your expectations are. I have had the same feeling about other watch brands- Rolex, VC, JLC, etc. when viewing them in the stores, particularly in my early days of watch enthusiasm. After all, they are just watches. After you get past the sparkling internet photos and have it in the flesh, it is just a watch. There is only so much you can do. Your liking of the style is probably going to have a bigger impact on you, and that is of course subjective. Lighting does have a lot to do with it. I recall two Rolex dealers- when I went into one I always struggled to keep myself from buying. They all looked magnificent. Then I'd go look at the same watch in another store and be underwhelmed.
> 
> That said, I was not disappointed with my GS. I also find the bracelet to be outstanding compared to most makes. VC is pretty tough competition! Rolex is another known for great bracelets with great sizing/adjustment innovations over the last several years. After those two, I'd put GS bracelets up against just about anyone.


If comparing JLC hometime vs GS 051 ... it is almost on par in terms on the looks of course JLC wins on the case as GS is thick on the case. However if we compare on $$$$ ? GS is definitely a steal. Both are running on 28,800 ... 
Next if we bring in the SBGH001/005 ... The SBGH finishing on the bezel is out of the world and winning in all segments ....

GS GMT ? there are so much reviews and the best GS to offer SBJG005 ... sweeping awards ...

For me ? JLC and seiko are great watch makers and they are truly similar hardworking in movements but a asian vs european favors ... 
JLC wise i am more keen on their alarm complications...

VC/PP/AL - these are way different leagues since we need to compare 5-10k or 10-15k 15-25k range


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## ilitig8

Forum hype can set one up for unrealistic expectations. I saw my first ones with Patek finish expectations based on the forum, I was disappointed. In retrospect I should have known better. That said they excel at finishing and it is likely the best finishing in the mid-tier range. That said some people don't appreciate this enough to pay for it. If Rolex sold very similar watches in the $1000 range with a lower quality of fit and finish they would likely satisfy a lot of people. I honestly think that if a person is truly satisfied at one level of quality it is counterproductive for them to "learn" to appreciate something more expensive, if you like $40 bottles of Scotch why labor to convince yourself $200 bottles are better? I am beyond hope, I have gone to the point of having a (inexpensive, in other words it ain't no Zeiss) microscope. I find things on Lange and Patek movements and gripe to myself how they shouldn;t be there. In the end my point is simply don't force yourself to like something thousands of dollars more if you are already happy, if you send the money you will likely convince yourself you are happier then you have lost track of your true feelings.


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## KazeKei

Ask for a loupe, at least 10x, and see how amazing the finishing is!


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## Itubij

I have never handled a GS in person, though my birthday list has a GS at the top. As my tastes refines (aging gracefully, I guess) the GS becomes more appealing because it complements my personality - quiet, understated, simple yet tasteful and detailed. 

I doubt I would be disappointed handling one because I'm not looking for (neither am I swayed by) hype. I am looking for what I stated above.


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## diablogt

People have different taste so it is very normal. The watch that stay will likely be the one that fits the person's personality rather than the one that sparks strong feeling at the first look. The honey moon is short and the marriage is long. ^^


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## NJPakman

It does, if you comparing another $7000 + watch. This is just a $3500 - 4200 watch. 


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## lxxrr

If you have a trained eye, the Grand Seiko line is far from a let down.


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## lorsban

What sort of bugged me about their basic models is how thick they were. 

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## Tseg

lorsban said:


> What sort of bugged me about their basic models is how thick they were.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk


If there was one thing about a GS I wish they would address is thickness. They would really elevate in my mind if they were in the sub-12mm thickness range. Most $1K - $7K watches are +12mm but very few <12mm. A thin automatic or spring drive GS would really catch my eye. My Rolex GMT is 12mm, my GS GMT is 14mm. For me, this is a big negative for GS in the GS vs. Rolex debate.


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## Nebo

i can not imagine spend the same money on grand seiko not in rolex there is no comparison in prestige and every thing i think people who buy gs for one reason fall in love with it and this love make them blind for facts


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## Nebo

i put two photo to seiko to know the little diffrence between gs and the cheap one


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## The Naf

Could do the same thing with a sub and Steinhart. You really wanna see the difference... Here you go (pics borrowed):
















Not to say that Rolex don't excel GS in other areas. Suffice to say that each company makes exceptional time pieces. There's really no need for a Rolex vs GS debate in this thread.

The Naf


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## LittleTim

If you can't spot the difference between a GS and the SARB, than don't buy expensive watches. Just look at the second hand. 
The GS hands are amazing. Better than most other luxury watches stamped hands.


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## duffin123456

I've only handled GS a couple of times and never actually owned once. I have to admit though they are pretty good with their finishing, but don't compare it to the holy trinity' quality. some people say they have better finishing than rolex, I say they're about the same. to be honest, GS is nothing special to me but I'm not disappointed at all when I saw it the first time cause well, it's Seiko. I kind of expect it to be nothing special from the beginning anyway.


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## ten13th

The Naf said:


> Could do the same thing with a sub and Steinhart.


Touché. Well done.


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## WRXtranceformed

The Naf said:


> Could do the same thing with a sub and Steinhart. You really wanna see the difference... Here you go (pics borrowed):
> 
> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7809218&d=1460784673"]
> 
> 
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> 
> [/iurl]
> [iurl="https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7809226&d=1460784688"]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/iurl]
> 
> Not to say that Rolex don't excel GS in other areas. Suffice to say that each company makes exceptional time pieces. There's really no need for a Rolex vs GS debate in this thread.
> 
> The Naf


Yeah but Steinhart and Rolex are in DRASTICALLY different price points, not the same one.

No denying the GS quality but I don't get the hype either (and I love Seiko). Maybe I'll change my mind if I get to handle one in person. Right now to me it's like buying a Hyundai Equus instead of a proper luxury sedan...people know it's nice by looking at it but it's going to go unnoticed by 99% (which is fine if your goal is to fly uber the radar)


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## TLud

Nebo said:


> i can not imagine spend the same money on grand seiko not in rolex there is no comparison in prestige and every thing i think people who buy gs for one reason fall in love with it and this love make them blind for facts


You're blinded by Rolex marketing to the fact that GS quality matches or surpasses Rolex quality in just about every respect. I own both Rolex and GS. I didn't buy any of them for "prestige."

Back on subject, if anything, I was more impressed with GS after seeing them in person. Pictures really don't do them justice because they don't capture the way all those sharp edges reflect the light and the brilliant dial colors.


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## LittleTim

WRXtranceformed said:


> Yeah but Steinhart and Rolex are in DRASTICALLY different price points, not the same one.
> 
> No denying the GS quality but I don't get the hype either (and I love Seiko). Maybe I'll change my mind if I get to handle one in person. Right now to me it's like buying a Hyundai Equus instead of a proper luxury sedan...people know it's nice by looking at it but it's going to go unnoticed by 99% (which is fine if your goal is to fly uber the radar)


I don't think the naff was attempting to compare the difference between GS and Rolex, but between Rolex and Steinhart. It was in reference to GS and the SARB line.
If you are not impressed with Grand Seiko than it is your prerogative.


----------



## KtWUS

duffin123456 said:


> I've only handled GS a couple of times and never actually owned once. I have to admit though they are pretty good with their finishing, but don't compare it to the holy trinity' quality. some people say they have better finishing than rolex, I say they're about the same. to be honest, GS is nothing special to me but I'm not disappointed at all when I saw it the first time cause well, it's Seiko. I kind of expect it to be nothing special from the beginning anyway.


If GS has about the same finishing as Rolex, that's impressive to me. If they have similar finishing to the holy trinity it would be mind-blowing.


----------



## Nebo

i give example with the same kind seiko sarb and GS could u give example like this in rolex do not goo to another company there is company make low and high product and there is a company only make high product it is rolex but seiko is the best quality in cheap watches


----------



## LittleTim

Am I the only one that saw the above pictures that The Naf posted? Wasn't that a pretty convincing pictures? 
High polished; sharp edges between the finishing.

Look at the reflection of the hand... notice how straight and uniform that reflection is? That is a skilled craftsman.

If you can't notice that, than I am dumbfounded.


----------



## KtWUS

LittleTim said:


> Am I the only one that saw the above pictures that The Naf posted? Wasn't that a pretty convincing pictures?
> High polished; sharp edges between the finishing.
> 
> Look at the reflection of the hand... notice how straight and uniform that reflection is? That is a skilled craftsman.
> 
> If you can't notice that, than I am dumbfounded.


+1. I'd trade my Sarb033 for a GS any day


----------



## Nebo

i think that is enough this thread should move to seiko forum under who is better seiko or citizen but u compare seiko even GS with rolex this is insane


----------



## T1meout

Absolutely. I was totally underwhelmed when viewing them in person, but I'm still hoping the SBGR095 looks as good in the flesh as it does in pictures.


----------



## The Naf

Nebo said:


> i think that is enough this thread should move to seiko forum under who is better seiko or citizen but u compare seiko even GS with rolex this is insane




The Naf


----------



## hotmustardsauce

Nebo said:


> i can not imagine spend the same money on grand seiko not in rolex there is no comparison in prestige and every thing i think people who buy gs for one reason fall in love with it and this love make them blind for facts
> View attachment 7808338
> View attachment 7808418


Wtf did I just read.

You take the best photo of the sub at the only angle the watch looks decent with that ugly wart on the watch notwithstanding and compares it to one of the cheapest grand seikos under dull lighting.

For one of those subs you can get 5 of the grand seiko pictured.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## Ahriman4891




----------



## JohnnyT5

I agree that if you prefer very complicated busy watches, GS can seem very simple in comparison, but that is exactly what I like about them. Their fit and finish, however, are undeniably on a par with much more expensive brands and superior to those in the same price range. 

Maybe the fact that lower priced Seikos come close to looking the same as a GS says more about the incredible value available throughout the Seiko line and less that GS isn't worthy of the praise it is receiving. I have the privilege of having a diverse collection and my two Grand Seikos are clearly among my favorites.


----------



## samanator

The Naf said:


> Could do the same thing with a sub and Steinhart. You really wanna see the difference... Here you go (pics borrowed):
> 
> View attachment 7809218
> 
> View attachment 7809226
> 
> 
> Not to say that Rolex don't excel GS in other areas. Suffice to say that each company makes exceptional time pieces. There's really no need for a Rolex vs GS debate in this thread.
> 
> The Naf


I've held back form commenting on this photo in the other thread, but feel the need since it's now being used for a reference. Not really fair to take something to the extreme variance. Over the years I've seen many less than stellar GS finish issues on dials, hands and cases in photos. I don't see those presented here or there? On the Rolex side I've looked at mine, plus probably 200 watches through a loop over the years,and I've never seen one even remotely as bad as the one in that photo. I can rarely find a flaw in either. Every brand has a few watches that should have stayed at the factory. Let's refrain from adding to the miss information with things like this. Besides if you want comparable watches the Cellini line is more a GS type Rolex. Showing a lume line on a sport watch versus a watch that doesn't have a grain of lume is not very equal. Lume is kind of like grains of sand ( in clear lacquer), where the more the glow the bigger the grain. As WIS we should know these things.

As noted this is not a GS versus anyone thread. The OP was just not as delighted as you may be with GS models. To be honest I feel the same way when I look most models from most of the elite brands Swiss and German brands. They are just not my thing. I don't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## The Naf

samanator said:


> I've held back form commenting on this photo in the other thread, but feel the need since it's now being used for a reference. Not really fair to take something to the extreme variance. Over the years I've seen many less than stellar GS finish issues on dials, hands and cases in photos. I don't see those presented here or there? On the Rolex side I've looked at mine, plus probably 200 watches through a loop over the years,and I've never seen one even remotely as bad as the one in that photo. I can rarely find a flaw in either. Every brand has a few watches that should have stayed at the factory. Let's refrain from adding to the miss information with things like this. Besides if you want comparable watches the Cellini line is more a GS type Rolex. Showing a lume line on a sport watch versus a watch that doesn't have a grain of lume is not very equal. Lume is kind of like grains of sand ( in clear lacquer), where the more the glow the bigger the grain. As WIS we should know these things.
> 
> As noted this is not a GS versus anyone thread. The OP was just not as delighted as you may be with GS models. To be honest I feel the same way when I look most models from most of the elite brands Swiss and German brands. They are just not my thing. I don't see anything wrong with that.


I agree with you (mostly) but I think you missed the point of the post. I did end off with:

"Suffice to say that each company makes exceptional time pieces. There's really no need for a Rolex vs GS debate in this thread."

So clearly it was never my intention to compare the two. It was only in response to the poster who posted a very picturesque photo of his sub and proceeded it with a comparison photo of the cheapest GS next to a SARB.

It was more a "two can play that game" type of response and kind of like a reality check; "You think GS is not so great well check this photo out. You think Rolex is Top stuff well get a load of this" hehe.

Like I said I think in context people realise the point I'm making but if you think it's adding to "misinformation" then I guess its your prerogative to clarify it.

The Naf


----------



## hotmustardsauce

samanator said:


> I've held back form commenting on this photo in the other thread, but feel the need since it's now being used for a reference. Not really fair to take something to the extreme variance. Over the years I've seen many less than stellar GS finish issues on dials, hands and cases in photos. I don't see those presented here or there? On the Rolex side I've looked at mine, plus probably 200 watches through a loop over the years,and I've never seen one even remotely as bad as the one in that photo. I can rarely find a flaw in either. Every brand has a few watches that should have stayed at the factory. Let's refrain from adding to the miss information with things like this. Besides if you want comparable watches the Cellini line is more a GS type Rolex. Showing a lume line on a sport watch versus a watch that doesn't have a grain of lume is not very equal. Lume is kind of like grains of sand ( in clear lacquer), where the more the glow the bigger the grain. As WIS we should know these things.
> 
> As noted this is not a GS versus anyone thread. The OP was just not as delighted as you may be with GS models. To be honest I feel the same way when I look most models from most of the elite brands Swiss and German brands. They are just not my thing. I don't see anything wrong with that.


Lume is a poor excuse. Plenty of Grand seikos with Lume that have much better dial work than rolex. As a grand seiko owner i thought you would know better. Rolex does have its qualities but it's dial work is nowhere near grand seiko.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk


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## mui.richard

Another Rolex Vs Grand Seiko? And comments from guys that have never handled, let alone own a Grand Seiko?

I have watches from both brands and while I love the styling and "colorful history" that Rolex offers, the Grand Seiko definitely wins hand down in terms of their level of finishing. All three watches average +2spd so I have no complaint on their movements and accuracy.

Mind you these were all taken with watches that I personally own so I'm not "pro" any camp, and I love my Exp II. But if we're on the subject of hands/dial finishing then GS has the obvious edge, pun intended.

And don't forget, the 214270 has a over 6k price tag, while this particular GS is only about half of that.

Do excuse the dust/lint on the Explorer photo...didn't realize it was that dirty until after the photos were taken.




























a watch is meant to be worn


----------



## Emospence

I'm disappointed there isn't one in my collection


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## sdungnguyens

Apparently GS is not for you


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## EugV12

Grand Seiko won't impress a watch newbie, or someone without an appreciation for finer, subtle details. It's like listening to a good and mediocre classic orchestra, or tasting good and mediocre wine - without a certain experience or perhaps even a loupe, you just won't see the difference between a Grand Seiko and a Seiko Premier, for example. Me, I was actually overwhelmed in NYC boutique. GSs I looked at and tried on impressed me more than I expected.


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## Whitershadeofpale

I looked as recent as a month ago at a Rolex date just. It was 40mm, too big for me. The sales guy said that why not have a bigger watch especially a Rolex so it will be noticed. Not my style. I also noticed engraving on the inner bezel. Looked way out of place to see serial number and ROLEX engraved on the inner ring. Too much grandiose script on the dial. Makes the watch appear 'gaudy' for my taste. and the bracelet was not so comfortable. And the there is the fact that every pretentious on the planet has one. 
The Grand Seiko is understated and much more beautiful to me than any Rolex. But its all personal taste, my taste ain't grandiose.


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## T1meout

Whitershadeofpale said:


> I looked as recent as a month ago at a Rolex date just. It was 40mm, too big for me. The sales guy said that why not have a bigger watch especially a Rolex so it will be noticed. Not my style. I also noticed engraving on the inner bezel. Looked way out of place to see serial number and ROLEX engraved on the inner ring. Too much grandiose script on the dial. Makes the watch appear 'gaudy' for my taste. and the bracelet was not so comfortable. And the there is the fact that every pretentious on the planet has one.
> The Grand Seiko is understated and much more beautiful to me than any Rolex. But its all personal taste, my taste ain't grandiose.


I thought this was a thread about Grand Seiko. Please be so kind and explain to us how Rolex factors in, unless you have a grandiose chip on your shoulder.


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## Whitershadeofpale

I have no desire to offer any explanation. Have a nice day and keep your wooden shoes dry


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## mleok

It seems to be a common issue on forums that people feel the need to communicate that they're better than others, be it based on the cost of what they own, on the supposed sophistication of their taste and ability to discern and appreciate quality, or their ability to look past marketing that lesser mortals fall for.


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## The Naf

mleok said:


> It seems to be a common issue on forums that people feel the need to communicate that they're better than others, be it based on the cost of what they own, on the supposed sophistication of their taste and ability to discern and appreciate quality, or their ability to look past marketing that lesser mortals fall for.


Are you trying to say that Grand Seiko is the choice of "better" people with more sophisticated tastes and the ability to discern and appreciate quality, without regard for marketing? Damn I need to get one soon! 

The Naf


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## entrynmbrv

Arguing one brand's superiority over another takes all the fun out of a hobby that's based on subjective views.


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## mleok

The Naf said:


> Are you trying to say that Grand Seiko is the choice of "better" people with more sophisticated tastes and the ability to discern and appreciate quality, without regard for marketing? Damn I need to get one soon!
> 
> The Naf


I am saying that that's the way that some of them would like to portray themselves as.


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## The Naf

mleok said:


> I am saying that that's the way that some of them would like to portray themselves as.


Your point was understood. And may I kindly point you to the emoji immediately proceeding my post  hehe

The Naf


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## JohnnyT5

If you love Grand Seikos, raise your hands. 
If you don't love Grand Seikos, raise your hands. 
If you neither love nor don't love Grand Seikos, raise your hands. 
Now, everyone's hands should be raised. We good?


----------



## SMB_

entrynmbrv said:


> Arguing one brand's superiority over another takes all the fun out of a hobby that's based on subjective views.


I would argue the exact opposite. All this hobby is, is debating minutiae and arguing the superiority of x watch, design, Movement etc over another. It's kind of what I enjoy most about it


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## ten13th

Purchased this sight unseen. I'm not one bit disappointed with this. In fact it blows all my expectations.



















IMHO. Too much fighting words, not enough photos in this thread. Photos brings objectivity to this discussion.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tseg

ten13th said:


> IMHO. Too much fighting words, not enough photos in this thread. Photos brings objectivity to this discussion.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Just because you asked nicely...


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## Whitershadeofpale

Very nice. And as with my GS, it blew away all my expectations as well. Only a few items have exceed my expectation. My Gibson LG-acoustic, my Grand Seiko, and Johnnie Walker Blue.


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## PJ S

ten13th said:


> Photos brings objectivity to this discussion.


Perhaps, but you can't argue that passionate banter makes for lively debate.


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## ten13th

PJ S said:


> Perhaps, but you can't argue that passionate banter makes for lively debate.


Absolutely agreed with you there. At the same time the thread was trending into another brand vs. brand threads. Just trying to bring the conversation back on track.


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## K_Mac

I agree with the OP. I went in today to the Seiko Boutique to look at GS. The watches are beautiful, but on the wrist it felt disappointing. I was heartbroken.


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## herooftheday

T1meout said:


> I thought this was a thread about Grand Seiko. Please be so kind and explain to us how Rolex factors in, unless you have a grandiose chip on your shoulder.


Sounds like he was speaking favor of the GS. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from.


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## T1meout

herooftheday said:


> Sounds like he was speaking favor of the GS. I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from.


To help you put my remark into perspective I suggest you read this thread of his. https://www.watchuseek.com/f642/now-i-know-why-its-called-grand-3138146.html
He was already bashing Rolex before migrating to this thread, which couldn't be more Rolex unrelated.
Granted everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but let's keep it real.


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## Domo

Tseg said:


> Just because you asked nicely...


Goddam that's crisp. I get chilly just looking at it!


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## Tseg

Domo said:


> Goddam that's crisp. I get chilly just looking at it!


Yeah, a Grand Seiko really seems to come alive under sunlight, even more than other watches.


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## samanator

Tseg said:


> Yeah, a Grand Seiko really seems to come alive under sunlight, even more than other watches.


It also helps when the size of the picture is 3x the actual watch on my monitor. Sometimes pictures fake us out versus what something looks like in person(Ok not really a revelation). When the original Planet Oceans came out in the orange around 2002, the dials always looked so stunning in pictures. In the pictures the numbers on the dial looked brilliant orange, in person they were very dull flat red regardless of light. I hated the watch look in person, but loved it in pictures. One of the only watches I've returned for how it looks.

I spent two days last week in front of the GS case at Toppers, and this watch (in the pictures above)did not pop with this much detail in the metal. Maybe the GS cases the watches are shown in need different lighting and a magnifier lens to bring out the detail? Now the SBGM021 and SBGR061 do jump out and are visually appealing. I found myself looking at them all the time those two days. Rob has a SBGE033 that in pictures here always has me drooling. I did not take it out in the sun, but in the store it is kind of dull. So your point about lighting up outside may be true? Which may also be part of the reason for the OP's impression?


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## herooftheday

T1meout said:


> To help you put my remark into perspective I suggest you read this thread of his. https://www.watchuseek.com/f642/now-i-know-why-its-called-grand-3138146.html
> He was already bashing Rolex before migrating to this thread, which couldn't be more Rolex unrelated.
> Granted everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but let's keep it real.


Yeah maybe he shouldn't have been so negative about Rolex, but I think you're taking it too personally. He obviously has a problem with Rolex for some reason or another, but who cares. That means more for us lol.


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## Herman65

I had the complete opposite reaction. I was blown away by quality, fit and finish. BUT, that's just me. If it didn't "move you" then there is nothing wrong with that impression. It affects us all differently. I have various Seiko's in different price ranges. It's not about price or other peoples opinions. It's how the watch makes you feel. Only true watch aficionados can relate.


----------



## wristclock

Herman65 said:


> I had the complete opposite reaction. I was blown away by quality, fit and finish. BUT, that's just me. If it didn't "move you" then there is nothing wrong with that impression. It affects us all differently. I have various Seiko's in different price ranges. It's not about price or other peoples opinions. It's how the watch makes you feel. Only true watch aficionados can relate.


Pretty much sums up my experience. I finally made the trek out to the nearest boutique and checked them out. The Quartz was on my mind and did not disappoint. It's amazing that you can get all that for under 2k. Such a finely crafted watch, it blew me away. I'll likely have one in a few months.


----------



## lorsban

wristclock said:


> Pretty much sums up my experience. I finally made the trek out to the nearest boutique and checked them out. The Quartz was on my mind and did not disappoint. It's amazing that you can get all that for under 2k. Such a finely crafted watch, it blew me away. I'll likely have one in a few months.


Good point about quartz. For me, they might present a better value than auto. Lower price, easier maintenance (anyone can do a battery swap).

And you still get that awesome GS case finish.

Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk


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## wristclock

lorsban said:


> Good point about quartz. For me, they might present a better value than auto. Lower price, easier maintenance (anyone can do a battery swap).
> 
> And you still get that awesome GS case finish.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk


Once I researched the technology in that 9f Quartz movement I was intrigued. Sampling the ambient air like 250 times a day to thermo compensate and how Seiko grows their own quartz crystals, 50 year service interval. It's a symbolic pice as Seiko invented the Quartz and they still do it best. The dealer quoted me ~1600$ without even asking for a discount. It is unbeatable for that price!


----------



## The Naf

samanator said:


> It also helps when the size of the picture is 3x the actual watch on my monitor. Sometimes pictures fake us out versus what something looks like in person(Ok not really a revelation)...
> 
> I spent two days last week in front of the GS case at Toppers, and this watch (in the pictures above)did not pop with this much detail in the metal...


After having seen some a Salera's in Melbourne I have to wholeheartedly agree. The snowflake, though nice, did not really pop as much in real life as it does in monitor screens. I can also understand some of the statements of being underwhelmed because my wife was completelely unimpressed. Even I found myself having to look closely to appreciate the superb level of finishing so easily evident on my monitor screen. Having said all of that it was much the same when I handled my first Rolex/IWC/Omega in store. I must admit that the finishing on the hands and indices were definately something to behold even in the flesh.


----------



## tzakiel

It's not something I bought into for flashy looks... It's a quiet perfection that GS have compared to swiss watches. Personally, I like that under the radar quality.


----------



## nippa

I bought my SBGM003J1 from a Jeweller in Hong Kong in October 2008 quite soon after the first release outside Japan - to Dealers in HK and Taipeii. 
I quickly appreciated the fine finish but as a time keeper it has been disappointing and was certificated ( paperwork is in the box ) to -1 and +10 sec for Japanese conditions only.

In reality it is no better at keeping time than an any other Mechanical Seiko and the variation in timekeeping is not as regular.
The watch is rarely worn and is kept as a curiosity.


----------



## outremer

Macros hots can be misleading, I felt the same after seeing the Snowflake in the metal. Give it a second chance, and your senses will be "rectified".


----------



## 41Mets

That's how I felt my first visit to the NYC boutique. It took me a second and third time seeing the GS in person to see the beauty more. Now I want one.


----------



## oak1971

Have never seen one in the real world.


----------



## zuiko

I must confess that I felt huge disappointment when I saw GS for the first time...

Disappointed I didn't have enough money to take the whole lot home with me... but I'm working on that part


----------



## Alysandir

Not sure what I can add to this discussion except to say that there is a very sublime, understated beauty to the GS that you have to spend time with it before you start noticing the little details that your eye doesn't pick up at first glance. 

For example, I was wiping smudges off my Snowflake the other day and noticed one particularly stubborn smudge on the rear crystal that didn't seem to want to come off. (Oh no!) So I'm looking at it, and the smudge seemed strangely...circular. So I got up next to a really bright light, trying to figure out what this is - and just so, I tilted the watch where it caught the angle of the light and revealed: the Grand Seiko lion logo, very lightly frosted into the center of the rear crystal. Whaaaaat? So I sent my AD a message telling him about this really cool detail, and he writes back, "Are you sure? I'm looking at the case backs here and don't see anything, can you bring it in?" So I did, and showed it to him, and only when he knew what he was looking for, could he see it on the other case backs. Now, *that's* a subtle detail.

IMO, the GS have this ability to be chameleons: you throw on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, and the GS hides in plain sight as a "just a Seiko" that no one really would take a second glance at. Conversely, you put on a suit and tie, and suddenly it becomes a high-end dress watch with just the right amount of polish, fit, and finish and becomes a conversation starter. I used to own two dress watches - one for high dress and one for low dress occasions - yet now find the Snowflake serves in both roles equally well.

And you just cannot get over how mesmerizing the sweeping second hand is on the spring drive models. It's hypnotizing. But again, you wouldn't know it at first glance...


----------



## 41Mets

Oops double post


----------



## gneissnz

Alysandir said:


> Not sure what I can add to this discussion except to say that there is a very sublime, understated beauty to the GS that you have to spend time with it before you start noticing the little details that your eye doesn't pick up at first glance.
> 
> For example, I was wiping smudges off my Snowflake the other day and noticed one particularly stubborn smudge on the rear crystal that didn't seem to want to come off. (Oh no!) So I'm looking at it, and the smudge seemed strangely...circular. So I got up next to a really bright light, trying to figure out what this is - and just so, I tilted the watch where it caught the angle of the light and revealed: the Grand Seiko lion logo, very lightly frosted into the center of the rear crystal. Whaaaaat? So I sent my AD a message telling him about this really cool detail, and he writes back, "Are you sure? I'm looking at the case backs here and don't see anything, can you bring it in?" So I did, and showed it to him, and only when he knew what he was looking for, could he see it on the other case backs. Now, *that's* a subtle detail.
> 
> IMO, the GS have this ability to be chameleons: you throw on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, and the GS hides in plain sight as a "just a Seiko" that no one really would take a second glance at. Conversely, you put on a suit and tie, and suddenly it becomes a high-end dress watch with just the right amount of polish, fit, and finish and becomes a conversation starter. I used to own two dress watches - one for high dress and one for low dress occasions - yet now find the Snowflake serves in both roles equally well.
> 
> And you just cannot get over how mesmerizing the sweeping second hand is on the spring drive models. It's hypnotizing. But again, you wouldn't know it at first glance...


I agree completely. And lol, I just had to pull my snowflake off my wrist to check for this glass frosted logo. Sure enough, after a bit of tilting and catching light, there it was. Thanks for that!


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## T1meout

Grand Seiko didn't come up with this. Rolex have been laser etching their tiny coronet logo at the 6 o'clock marker on their crystals for over a decade now. It can hardly be seen with the naked eye unless one suffers from nearsightedness. Got to use a loupe to admire its beauty. It's so inconspicuous that 99.9% of Rolex owners aren't even aware of its existence.


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## v1vne

I have two Grand Seiko watches, and two other Seiko watches.
The only disappointments I have is the limited models being sold out.
Ownership of a Grand Seiko may be the only way to experience the joy
wearing a watch that is like a stealth aircraft.
"GS hides in plain sight"


----------



## jaeiger

I tried on my first GS, an sbgr051, a couple of months ago. When I saw it at the time, I wasn't all that blown away. It was more like - oh, okay, this is quite nice I suppose. It felt like the modern incarnation of my KS:










Nice enough, and easy to get lost in the details, but otherwise a run of the mill "nice watch". It wasn't until I walked a couple of stores down and had a look at some OP36's and 39's that I really appreciated the difference in finishing. And I'm not trying to turn this into a rolex bash; I appreciate what makes them so great - the history, the bombproofness of their movements, the effortless precision, to name a few things. But, in person, the GS polishing was just that much more sharply defined, the brushing that much more consistently grained. And that's just the case. The hands and indices are, I think, the crown jewels of a GS, at least for the SBGR053. It's almost too clinically perfect, how sharpy defined the facets of the hands are. But, that's the kind of thing that, in person, you can only really appreciate when looking at it up close.

At arm's length away, it just blends in to looking like any other fairly well made watch, for better or worse.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skyWalker

I'm impressed with their finishing....

... I'm disappointed with the accuracy of my Grand Seiko automatic and the Service Center in my country....


----------



## mwalle6

I've never seen one in person, although I think I'd like to have a 9F quartz one day. I do constantly see on the forum people saying things like "this brand XYZ watch is great, but the finish isn't as nice as a Grand Seiko". When you are used as the benchmark for finishing, you must be doing something right.


----------



## 3fedor3

In my opinion, there is nothing you can be objectively disappointed with when seeing a GS in the flesh. I think that people that aren't impressed with GS in the flesh either a) do not find GS designs aesthetically pleasing or b) do not have enough time and/or the right lighting to appreciate all of the intricate details.


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## 3th3r

3fedor3 said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing you can be objectively disappointed with when seeing a GS in the flesh. I think that people that aren't impressed with GS in the flesh either a) do not find GS designs aesthetically pleasing or b) do not have enough time and/or the right lighting to appreciate all of the intricate details.


Or they forgot to bring their reading glasses


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## Yelfel

Seiko's high end watches rival any in the world regarding finish and quality of craftsmanship. This Bloomberg article shows the quality of Credor.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo...-ornate-secrets-inside-seiko-s-credor-watches

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mattthefish

Alysandir said:


> Not sure what I can add to this discussion except to say that there is a very sublime, understated beauty to the GS that you have to spend time with it before you start noticing the little details that your eye doesn't pick up at first glance.
> 
> For example, I was wiping smudges off my Snowflake the other day and noticed one particularly stubborn smudge on the rear crystal that didn't seem to want to come off. (Oh no!) So I'm looking at it, and the smudge seemed strangely...circular. So I got up next to a really bright light, trying to figure out what this is - and just so, I tilted the watch where it caught the angle of the light and revealed: the Grand Seiko lion logo, very lightly frosted into the center of the rear crystal. Whaaaaat? So I sent my AD a message telling him about this really cool detail, and he writes back, "Are you sure? I'm looking at the case backs here and don't see anything, can you bring it in?" So I did, and showed it to him, and only when he knew what he was looking for, could he see it on the other case backs. Now, *that's* a subtle detail.
> 
> IMO, the GS have this ability to be chameleons: you throw on a pair of jeans and a t-shirt, and the GS hides in plain sight as a "just a Seiko" that no one really would take a second glance at. Conversely, you put on a suit and tie, and suddenly it becomes a high-end dress watch with just the right amount of polish, fit, and finish and becomes a conversation starter. I used to own two dress watches - one for high dress and one for low dress occasions - yet now find the Snowflake serves in both roles equally well.
> 
> And you just cannot get over how mesmerizing the sweeping second hand is on the spring drive models. It's hypnotizing. But again, you wouldn't know it at first glance...


I feel the same way about my '011. It's the perfect watch for almost any occasion with it's ability to dress up or down. My friends know I'm a watch guy and always want to hear about my newest buy. I can sense the disappointment when they see my Seiko but it's very short lived!Even after owning it for 2 years, I still get that "lucky" feeling from it.


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## Kasset1975

I thought this was an old thread since, as usual, it turned in to GS vs Rolex, usually started by people who own neither!

I own 2 GS and 2 Rolex - GS have hands down better finish and feel much more solid. The Rolexes are super reliable and the service you get from the manufacturer is amazing (scratched it? No worries, it'll look brand new after RSC finish with it, all included in the service cost).

I think the next time a troll turns up shouting how Seiko is rubbish and Rolex is god we just wish them luck. If they can't see how great GS watches are there is no convincing them anyway (and why would we want to convince them - makes them cheaper for us to buy more!).


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## Collectionist

lorsban said:


> Good point about quartz. For me, they might present a better value than auto. Lower price, easier maintenance (anyone can do a battery swap).
> 
> And you still get that awesome GS case finish.
> 
> Sent from my LG-H818 using Tapatalk


Totally agree here. I always end up with the Quartzes when shopping for a GS. And then choose vintage calibers. I simply love the 8J56 with its hidden GMT (you can move the hour hand seperately) and its TC prowess). I think the non Quartzes are too expensive and would always choose vintage here too for that reason.


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## lorsban

Btruijens said:


> Totally agree here. I always end up with the Quartzes when shopping for a GS. And then choose vintage calibers. I simply love the 8J56 with its hidden GMT (you can move the hour hand seperately) and its TC prowess). I think the non Quartzes are too expensive and would always choose vintage here too for that reason.


That looks awesome!

What model is that?

That movement is good for a few seconds per year right?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Collectionist

lorsban said:


> That looks awesome!
> 
> What model is that?
> 
> That movement is good for a few seconds per year right?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


Well... Rated at 5s...
















Time to do a short write up of the Grand Seiko SBGF021 and the 8J56 movement in general, as there is very little to be found on this. Much of this information has been cobbled together from sources but I felt the need to spruce it up a bit and present a coherent story. Feel free to contribute and correct mistakes now!
Well then, the discontinued 8J movement, produced from 1997 to 2011 (as far as I can establish), is considered within Seiko to be one of the best quartz movements, much better than the well known 9F and much more stable and accurate. It was expensive to produce and parts of the design made it hard to fit into thinner cases. The more cost effective 9F movement on the other hand is less stable, not so resistant to temperature and magnetic fields and costs about 30 percent less to produce than the 8J. But, importantly, it is thinner, and uses more common parts, therefore the frame can be used for a number of other movements and watches.
However, the 8J is, without a doubt, the most robust high accuracy quartz movement ever made. Even the fact that it had to be thicker works in its advantage resulting in even better thermocompensation performance.
The information coming from internal specs from Seiko in Japanese, on the 8J and 9F movements, is universal, saying the 8J was the last "cost be damned" very robust movement they did. The internal feeling is the 9F is less robust, less accurate, less shielded, and, yes, some of them scoff at the lack of an independent hour hand with which one easily adjusts to other time zones on the 8J.
The very high accuracy +- 5 second twin quartz movements that went before were extremely expensive to produce and were not robust in field use. Their biggest problem was they tended to get fried if worn in hot baths or shower rooms - a real issue here in Japan where the harried salaryman has his watch with him in the afterwork Sauna to benchmark the last train. The 8J was the answer to those concerns.

The Grand Seiko SBGF021 harks back to design characteristics of the seventies, for one the shape of the case. It is very reminiscent of Seiko's crazy days, especially in the way in which the crown side is designed. It is just like some King Seiko Vanacs, but more.distinguished. Also, the three dimensional effect of those watches is present here, caused by applying the indexes, the SEIKO and the GS logo to an absolutely stunning effect. The hands are of course baton style, and even the seconds hand is the pencil of old. What I like about that is the match of these design elements, the hands are at their centre about as thick as the hour indices, and where the minute hand meets up with the indices it overlaps just the raised part of it. Just great! And the seconds hand is the same width as the minute indices. 
The most disturbing and distracting aspect of "modern" Grand Seikos is a mismatch of the aforementioned design choices. The SBGX061, -059 etc. just do not speak to me as for instance the perfect harmony of a Grand Quartz 9940-8000.

Ok then, no critique? Well, one other defining feature of the SBGF021, the wide brushed bezel, may be more susceptible to scratches and scuffs than for instance the narrower, highly polished one on the SBGX061. But then again I notice the capped seconds hand, that ads to the luster that many of its 9F family members simply do not have.

------------General info
Brand:.Seiko
Production: 01-2000
Product Line: 8J56
Case: All original.
Calibre: 8J56-8020
Make: Japanese
Model/reference: SBGF021
Serial: 010250
Condition: very good

------------Casing
Case: original state
Diameter: 38mm by 42mm.
Caseback: Screw-down style ( threaded )
Water resistance: 200m
Finishing: original state

------------Viewing
Crystal: good
Bezel: flawless
Dial: black patterned, numbered 8J56-8030R4
Complication: date.
Hands: silver hands with.lume,.independently adjustable hour hand, "a timezone feature", capped seconds hand.
Indices: silver with lume

------------Interaction
Crown: embossed with the GS symbol, screw down. The first position is for operating the detachable hour hand, which is also used for a non-standard way to quick-set the date. The second position is used to hack the movement and set the correct time.
Date: works just fine
Hands: independently adjustable hour hand, "a.timezone feature"

------------Movement
Jewels: --
Accuracy:.+/- 5 seconden.per year
Winding: automatic
Battery: Seiko.SR1120SW
Battery life: (years) 5


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## lorsban

Btruijens said:


> Well... Rated at 5s...
> 
> Time to do a short write up of the Grand Seiko SBGF021 and the 8J56 movement in general, as there is very little to be found on this. Much of this information has been cobbled together from sources but I felt the need to spruce it up a bit and present a coherent story. Feel free to contribute and correct mistakes now!
> Well then, the discontinued 8J movement, produced from 1997 to 2011 (as far as I can establish), is considered within Seiko to be one of the best quartz movements, much better than the well known 9F and much more stable and accurate. It was expensive to produce and parts of the design made it hard to fit into thinner cases. The more cost effective 9F movement on the other hand is less stable, not so resistant to temperature and magnetic fields and costs about 30 percent less to produce than the 8J. But, importantly, it is thinner, and uses more common parts, therefore the frame can be used for a number of other movements and watches.
> However, the 8J is, without a doubt, the most robust high accuracy quartz movement ever made. Even the fact that it had to be thicker works in its advantage resulting in even better thermocompensation performance.
> The information coming from internal specs from Seiko in Japanese, on the 8J and 9F movements, is universal, saying the 8J was the last "cost be damned" very robust movement they did. The internal feeling is the 9F is less robust, less accurate, less shielded, and, yes, some of them scoff at the lack of an independent hour hand with which one easily adjusts to other time zones on the 8J.
> The very high accuracy +- 5 second twin quartz movements that went before were extremely expensive to produce and were not robust in field use. Their biggest problem was they tended to get fried if worn in hot baths or shower rooms - a real issue here in Japan where the harried salaryman has his watch with him in the afterwork Sauna to benchmark the last train. The 8J was the answer to those concerns.
> 
> The Grand Seiko SBGF021 harks back to design characteristics of the seventies, for one the shape of the case. It is very reminiscent of Seiko's crazy days, especially in the way in which the crown side is designed. It is just like some King Seiko Vanacs, but more.distinguished. Also, the three dimensional effect of those watches is present here, caused by applying the indexes, the SEIKO and the GS logo to an absolutely stunning effect. The hands are of course baton style, and even the seconds hand is the pencil of old. What I like about that is the match of these design elements, the hands are at their centre about as thick as the hour indices, and where the minute hand meets up with the indices it overlaps just the raised part of it. Just great! And the seconds hand is the same width as the minute indices.
> The most disturbing and distracting aspect of "modern" Grand Seikos is a mismatch of the aforementioned design choices. The SBGX061, -059 etc. just do not speak to me as for instance the perfect harmony of a Grand Quartz 9940-8000.
> 
> Ok then, no critique? Well, one other defining feature of the SBGF021, the wide brushed bezel, may be more susceptible to scratches and scuffs than for instance the narrower, highly polished one on the SBGX061. But then again I notice the capped seconds hand, that ads to the luster that many of its 9F family members simply do not have.
> 
> ------------General info
> Brand:.Seiko
> Production: 01-2000
> Product Line: 8J56
> Case: All original.
> Calibre: 8J56-8020
> Make: Japanese
> Model/reference: SBGF021
> Serial: 010250
> Condition: very good
> 
> ------------Casing
> Case: original state
> Diameter: 38mm by 42mm.
> Caseback: Screw-down style ( threaded )
> Water resistance: 200m
> Finishing: original state
> 
> ------------Viewing
> Crystal: good
> Bezel: flawless
> Dial: black patterned, numbered 8J56-8030R4
> Complication: date.
> Hands: silver hands with.lume,.independently adjustable hour hand, "a timezone feature", capped seconds hand.
> Indices: silver with lume
> 
> ------------Interaction
> Crown: embossed with the GS symbol, screw down. The first position is for operating the detachable hour hand, which is also used for a non-standard way to quick-set the date. The second position is used to hack the movement and set the correct time.
> Date: works just fine
> Hands: independently adjustable hour hand, "a.timezone feature"
> 
> ------------Movement
> Jewels: --
> Accuracy:.+/- 5 seconden.per year
> Winding: automatic
> Battery: Seiko.SR1120SW
> Battery life: (years) 5


Looks good!

Why not make a separate thread? I'm sure there will be lots of interest especially from the HAQ crowd.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Nom de Forum

lorsban said:


> Looks good!
> 
> Why not make a separate thread? I'm sure there will be lots of interest especially from the HAQ crowd.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


I agree. He has the makings of the beginning of a great thread in the HAQ forum.


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## Crate410

3fedor3 said:


> In my opinion, there is nothing you can be objectively disappointed with when seeing a GS in the flesh. I think that people that aren't impressed with GS in the flesh either a) do not find GS designs aesthetically pleasing or b) do not have enough time and/or the right lighting to appreciate all of the intricate details.


Yeah its all the lighting.

To the OP, GCs are sold at major malls here. I have held them, worn them, fiddled with them, seen them in different lighting... To me very underwhelming. They just are not special watches and at that price point... I would expect alot of omph.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mesaboogie18

Disappointed? Nope!


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## urbino

Not me. When I bought my GS, I went to the shop intending to buy a Nomos. I'd never seen a GS IRL. The fact that I came out of the shop with a GS on my wrist speaks to the impression they made on me.


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## Takashi78

If you are not attracted by the best finished hands and dial for the price point IMO then maybe GS is not for you.
Nothing wrong with that, there are many more choices out there.


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## cvn72

Nice pictures. Nicer watch.



mesaboogie18 said:


> Disappointed? Nope!
> 
> View attachment 8873890
> 
> View attachment 8873906


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## Evanssprky

Missed the part when he said that Grand Seiko were the first to etch the crystal, he was only pointing out that Grand Seiko do it very subtly on the crystal caseback, he's not Rolex bashing, relax. 
I had noticed an extremely faint "ring" on the caseback of my sbgm, and tried to ignore it (thinking it was maybe a fault). But after this post, with good spectacles on, just the right light, and extreme angles (plus dependant on where the rotor is sitting), I can just make out Grand Seiko, and the lion logo within the circle. Very subtle, very lovely.


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## nilfire77

Crate410 said:


> Yeah its all the lighting.
> 
> To the OP, *GCs* are sold at major malls here. I have held them, worn them, fiddled with them, seen them in different lighting... To me very underwhelming. They just are not special watches and at that price point... I would expect alot of omph.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Erm.. You do know that we are talking about GS and *NOT* GC right?


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## Crate410

nilfire77 said:


> Erm.. You do know that we are talking about GS and *NOT* GC right?
> 
> View attachment 9016321


Yes. That was a typo. But after seeing GSs in the metal. They might as well be very very very expensive GCs.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maljunulo

To answer your question, no not at all.

I bought my SBGX063 over the internet, sight unseen, because there are no Grand Seiko ADs near me, and I couldn't be more delighted with it.

Of course, I have no way of knowing exactly what your expectations were, but I guess Grand Seiko, like many things, is not for everyone, or to their liking


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## cvn72

Interesting. Can you compare the Grand Seikos you held with your Explorer? What specifically about the GS did you find inferior to your explorer? Case? Dial? Bracelet? Was it the looks? The fit?



Crate410 said:


> Yes. That was a typo. But after seeing GSs in the metal. They might as well be very very very expensive GCs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## manofrolex

Disappointed no but I don't go for hype even though it does make one pay attention.
I agree w others that have said a loupe is what u need when you have a GS at hand. To some it will always be a Seiko and that is their prerogative and there is no point trying to convince the masses.
Under a loupe my explorer II is not as impressive the lume application is not great the hands are definitely not as crisp. Bracelet wise the GS is very good but the micro screws are nerve racking and a pain. The Rolex bracelet is very well made and comfortable but not noticeably better.

My answer get one of each 



















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nilfire77

Crate410 said:


> Yes. That was a typo. But after seeing GSs in the metal. They might as well be very very very expensive GCs.


Whoa.. That's a very strong statement... Well, to each his own...


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## snakeeyes

gte355u124 said:


> After much anticipation, I finally made it to the NYC seiko boutique. After countless hours spent researching my next watch (a GS), and reading countless forums of how amazing and awesome the grand seiko was, I couldn't wait. But something strange happened when I walked in the store and started looking at them: I felt let down. I felt as though they looked the same as most watches $5k and lower. I felt I could not see a huge difference between the normal dress seiko's and dress grand seikos! I know, heresy right!? But that was my experience. The only watch I could say I wasn't that let down by was the titanium gs diver. But even that didn't "Wow" me. Is it just me??? Could it be the hype was overwhelming and the actual product could not match it??


GS not only met the hype...exceeded it imo....


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## Nom de Forum

nilfire77 said:


> Whoa.. That's a very strong statement... Well, to each his own...


It is equally silly as it is strong.


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## William Ayin

nilfire77 said:


> Whoa.. That's a very strong statement... Well, to each his own...


He's a known hater with a chip on his shoulder, i have seen him deem GS inferior to invicta so i wouldn't take his word too seriously.


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## vintage navitimer

"Re: Anyone else disappointed after seeing Grand Seiko's in the flesh?"

In a word . . . NO.


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## UofRSpider

I feel the same as OP. I don't get it I guess, but to each their own. You can polish the case all you want, at the end of the day...it's a Seiko.


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## Skody

It seems the only thing most people are disappointed with on a GS is the Seiko name. GS are superior to most at the same price point and exceed others at higher price points. Brand snobs.


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## matthew P

went by an AD today.... blown away by how well some of them look on wrist rather than in a macro shot.


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## ten13th

After seeing GS in the flesh. I was very disappointed for being fooled for so long by glossy marketing machine of other major watch brands. 


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## riddlers

I have been disappointed in a watch boutique, a Rolex retailer.


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