# Swatch to stop selling ETA movements to outside companies in 2010???



## roberev (Mar 15, 2006)

I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


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## weltmeister (Jul 3, 2006)

roberev said:


> I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


This seems to be true and it is not the first time I read this in the past few weeks also according to a press release published in this month's Europastar, DOXA has started preparing to manufacture their own calibers in cooperation with different suppliers, I am just guessing here, they can only be 28XX derivates.weltmeister


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2006)

Why should a newsletter lie ? I´ll report later on that issue.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

?????

I don't know if I'd have to cry or to laugh....

Many small watchcompanies will have to stop producing, some other will have to develop some in-house movements in order to survive...

Probably the average quality level will increase, but surely the cost of all watches will increase as well....


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2006)

This "story" goes back to summer 2002, when Swatch announced that they would *gradually* reduce delivery of ETA-ébauches to customers outside the Swatch Group and that such sales would be completely stopped by the end of 2005.
The Swiss Federal Committee for Fair Trading (WeKo)was activated by some of the customers claiming an illicit use of a position of power by the Swatch Group.
In winter 2004 an agreement was reached between ETA and the WeKo. 
ETA agreed to continue delivery of their movements until 2010, but the numbers will be gradually decreased. Based on the average number of movements that a customer had bought between 1999 and 2001 as a reference, Eta will only deliver 85 % of the reference figure in 2008, 50 % in 2009, and 25 % in 2010. Price increases are only allowed in the range of the inflation rate.

Here´s the agreement (PDF, sorry only in German): http://www.weko.admin.ch/publikatio...esserohstoff-ETA-D.pdf?lang=de&PHPSESSID=951c...

Asked whether they would continue to buy Eta movements if the prices will increase w.g. Breitling answered "Yes, we have no alternative," and Dubois-Depraz even stated that they "would continue to buy ébauches from ETA even if the prices will climb up to 200 % or more, because there is no alternative."
For the customer, the result is simple: Prices for mechanical watches will continue to go up.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2006)

weltmeister said:


> Excuse me, ? are you talking to me?weltmeister


No! If you are using the display mode "hybride" you´ll easily see I was talking to poster no. 1 (roberev). ;-) but I have to admit I mixed up "swatch" and "swiss". My mistake. Sorry for that. I already deleted/edited the nonsense I posted.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Mike, could this be a start for many brands to develop in-house calibres?
My thinking is that internal development costs could become competitive, if compared with the increased cost of ebauches purchased from ETA.
It could be that many watchmakers will make joint-ventures for developing and producing calibres.

In any case, the cost of watches will increase....
What is your opinion?
Thanks.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2006)

rouge said:


> Mike, could this be a start for many brands to develop in-house calibres?
> My thinking is that internal development costs could become competitive, if compared with the increased cost of ebauches purchased from ETA.
> It could be that many watchmakers will make joint-ventures for developing and producing calibres.
> 
> ...


Well, the development of a new movement will cost a lot (up to a million Euro). As we all know Progress tried and failed in 2005, so joint-ventures seem to be an appropriate way to solve the problem. 
BTW: Joint-ventures aren´t that new - remember the Buren 12 caliber.

On Baselworld 2006 some new movements showed up. I am curious how Baselworld 2007 will react ! I´ll be there ;-)


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

Buy stock in sellita.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

I'll bet there is rejoicing in China on the day Swatch stops exporting movements to Singapore and Hong Kong. There are many little watch casing companies that cannot afford to buy ETA if the price goes up and will turn to the Chinese watch industry.

Swatch may have shot themselves in the knee, as this decision will only strengthen the Chinese movement industry.


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## weltmeister (Jul 3, 2006)

stuffler said:


> No! If you are using the display mode "hybride" you´ll easily see I was talking to poster no. 1 (roberev). ;-) but I have to admit I mixed up "swatch" and "swiss". My mistake. Sorry for that. I already deleted/edited the nonsense I posted.


thanksweltmeister


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:-D Hayek is known to shoot himself in the foot from time to time.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, it might be, but my point of view is that low level brands in this way will disappear, because of the cost increase of ETA ebauches and competition of quartz calibres (nobody will accept an unaccurate and not reliable mechanical movement and this is the present situation of low cost movements made in China). Of course, Chinese mechanical movement quality could be improved, but Japanese and Eastern Europe mechanical calibres are already on the market, having an acceptable quality level. It's a hard job..... :think:
Probably Mr. Hayek is thinking about a re-branding of ETA calibres (something similar to Zenith industrial planning, already in progress, as per Mr. Thierry Nataf <| company management) by increasing market prices of ETA movement watches (and so margins) instead of making investments in term of new high range ebauches.
It's only a matter of money.... :-(


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Or, it could be an attempt to absorb the entire watch industry in Swizterland, except of course those with the ability to produce movements from scratch.


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## Denizen (Jun 30, 2006)

*how will it affect current owners*

this is old news which occassionally gets brought up every once in a while...

but the concern that i have is what happens to all of us who own watches which are not part of the swatch group, brands who are too small to engineer their own movements. when it comes time to service them and the movement needs to be replaced, am i completely screwed over? :think:

it may be time to start stockpiling movements



rouge said:


> Well, it might be, but my point of view is that low level brands in this way will disappear, because of the cost increase of ETA ebauches and competition of quartz calibres (nobody will accept an unaccurate and not reliable mechanical movement and this is the present situation of low cost movements made in China). Of course, Chinese mechanical movement quality could be improved, but Japanese and Eastern Europe mechanical calibres are already on the market, having an acceptable quality level. It's a hard job..... :think:
> Probably Mr. Hayek is thinking about a re-branding of ETA calibres (something similar to Zenith industrial planning, already in progress, as per Mr. Thierry Nataf <| company management) by increasing market prices of ETA movement watches (and so margins) instead of making investments in term of new high range ebauches.
> It's only a matter of money.... :-(


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## Francois Boucher (Feb 15, 2006)

*It could become very interesting!*

Thanks Mike for a good summary.

Hey, it could become very interesting!

Imagine Breitling timepieces with Seiko calibers inside! :-D


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*

Junghans has started a new line called the 1861 line and the calibers in these watches were produced by Seiko for exclusively for Junghans. As reported on the German forum, these movements are similar to the ones found in Grand Seikos and Credors.

The 6R15 movement, found in the Seiko Spirit, is supposed to be just as good as the 2824, but can be had for cheaper.

Seiko may very well position themselves to provide more movements to European companies. The movements found in the Credors, Grand Seikos and Spirits and their SARA lines are top notch. Who knows what the future holds.


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## Dieselweasel (Jun 30, 2006)

Hello Mike (and all the others),



stuffler said:


> This "story" goes back to summer 2002, when Swatch announced that they would *gradually* reduce delivery of ETA-ébauches to customers outside the Swatch Group and that such sales would be completely stopped by the end of 2005.
> (...)
> In winter 2004 an agreement was reached between ETA and the WeKo.
> ETA agreed to continue delivery of their movements until 2010, but the numbers will be gradually decreased.


Perhaps I misunderstood the PDF, but I read:
ETA wants to decrease the number of ébauches, not the number of movements ("mouvements"). This would mean that it will be harder to get movements *based* on ETA ébauches. Complete (ready to go) ETA movements shouldn't be affected.



> Asked whether they would continue to buy Eta movements if the prices will increase w.g. Breitling answered "Yes, we have no alternative," and Dubois-Depraz even stated that they "would continue to buy ébauches from ETA even if the prices will climb up to 200 % or more, because there is no alternative."


Cry wolf :rodekaart
Breitling should be able to finance the development of own movements without any problems and they have enough time to prepare.

Since I bought my first mechanical German watch about two years ago I'm watching the German watch manufacturers for their future strategy.
So here and now I've the chance to share my thoughts and theses ;-) - comments and suggestions are highly appreciated:

(1) The high level market like Lange, GO, Union Glashuette, etc. is already independent from the ETA movements: 
ETAs strategy will only bring advantages for them as other brands like Breitling get more and more expensive.

(2) The midprice market with a lot of "customized" watches will divide in the prepared and the unprepared (or not able to prepare) ones.

Here I really appreciate the strategy of Nomos and Wempe.
http://www.glashuette.com/en/magazin_details92.html

The German Chronometer Norm is the right direction for the future of German watches. And with Nomos there is already a German brand with mechanical watches based on manufactory movements that cost less than 1000 EUR.
Joerg Schauer seems also to be on the right way with the Durowe movement brand (http://www.durowe.de/), but targets the market > 2000 EUR.

So far I was not able to recognize the strategy of brands like e.g. Sinn or Muehle Glashuette. And I really fear they have none :think:

Furthermore I'm really wondering if someone will be able to re-introduce / rebuild some "old" German movements like the PUW ones. The

(3) The entry level with watches like the Stowa Antea, Chronoswiss, etc. could IMHO live with the ready-to-go movements from ETA. So most of the brands <1000 EUR shouldn't be affected by the disappearing ETA-ébauches.
Watches like the Stowa Marine Original will disappear or will become lot more expensive.



> For the customer, the result is simple: Prices for mechanical watches will continue to go up.


That will surely happen, as always in the past :-|

Just my 2 cents
Ralf


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## Dieselweasel (Jun 30, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



thodgins said:


> Junghans has started a new line called the 1861 line and the calibers in these watches were produced by Seiko for exclusively for Junghans. As reported on the German forum, these movements are similar to the ones found in Grand Seikos and Credors.
> 
> The 6R15 movement, found in the Seiko Spirit, is supposed to be just as good as the 2824, but can be had for cheaper.
> 
> Seiko may very well position themselves to provide more movements to European companies. The movements found in the Credors, Grand Seikos and Spirits and their SARA lines are top notch. Who knows what the future holds.


I'm not sure if the European market is interested in Ger-panese watches.
For me Junghans still has a bad reputation. The brand has really been destroyed by the management. And this seems to be the next step. :-(

The word "Swissmade" and therefore Swiss movements are seen as excellent quality. People know that this couldn't be cheap and therefore we are willing to invest more money than for Russian or Chinese watches.
If I read the word "Japanese" always the words "gadget" and "toy" come into my mind. A lot of people in Europe are buying cars from Toyota, Honda, Mazda,... But are these the people that buy mechanical watches? I really don't know.

Cheers, Ralf


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## Triton (Oct 17, 2006)

Tragic said:


> Buy stock in sellita.


right on! the Sellita SW200 is the new ETA 2824.


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## altro (Apr 29, 2005)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



Francois Boucher said:


> Thanks Mike for a good summary.
> 
> Hey, it could become very interesting!
> 
> Imagine Breitling timepieces with Seiko calibers inside! :-D


I take it you are not serious! Although Breitling have used Japanese quartz/LCD movements in the past there is absolutely no chance that they will use Japanese mechanical movements. In fact it seems probable that their current expertise will be extended into transforming the company into a _manufacture_.

Regards,


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:think: Could this trigger the rebirth of companies, like Anton Schild?


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## CraigBrunen (Sep 29, 2006)

They will eventually go to Seiko, or, if small enough, buy used movements that are being refinished anyway. 

I doubt this will have a huge impact the way people think it will. Also, a lot of these companies might try to partner with Swatch


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

I do believe that very few present customers of many Swiss or German quality watch brands would accept a watch embedding a Japanese or a Chinese cheap calibre (even if finely "tuned"), at least I would not accept at all.

Quality timepieces retailing costs are hundreds (or thousands) of Euro each and, for many consumers, this means a nearly hand-crafted product, which production processes are operated by qualified high level watchmakers. At least, this is what would come with a quality watch of many famous brands. This is an added value that every customer of Swiss or German quality watchbrands expects and this added value is part of price which customers are available to pay for.
Otherwise, it would be meaningless to buy a Swiss or German quality watch, being available on market Japanese made corresponding models which have same quality features in terms of accuracy, reliability and sturdiness, but cheaper 60/70% off.

By the other side, even 1,5 million Euro of investment necessary to develop a new calibre is really anything for many serious watch brands, by considering that the investment of the development could be easily redeemed in few year by spreading it on the production cost of watches.

To give you some figures for a simple evaluation, 1,5M Euro could be redeemed in 3 years by marking up 50 Euro on BOM cost of a watch for a brand producing 10.000 watches per year. And 10.000 pcs. per year can be reached by many manufacturers.
Rolex produces more or less 800.000 watches per year, Omega, TAG Heuer, Longines and some others produce more than 2 million pieces per year, retailed at 1.000 euro up each. :-S
Do you really think that new calibres could developed or not yet?


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

Watchbreath said:


> :think: Could this trigger the rebirth of companies, like Anton Schild?


Aren't they part of the Swatch Group?


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2006)

lysanderxiii said:


> Aren't they part of the Swatch Group?


Yes and NO

In 1979 ETA and manufacturer A. Schild SA/Grenchen fused. Three years later the ETAA was split up into a group of ebauche-producers consisting of ETA, FHF and EEM. One year later due to structural processes a lot of brands (were) closed down (Durowe GmbH Pforzheim, Ebauches Bettlach, Venus, Tavannes, FEF, Peseux SA, Unitas, FHF to name some). ETA belonged to a holding known as Ebauches SA which in 1983 fused with ASUAG, which fused (smae year) with Omega-Tissot-Group SSIH which in 1985 became the SMH kown as the predecessor of the Swatch Group of today.


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*

The current management is trying to change that perception. The current CEO used to be the CEO of Glashutte Original.

If more people knew about Grand Seiko movements and that they rival Swiss/German movements, then maybe this would be better appreciated. I think people need to change their perception of the Seiko movements. Junghans is using the best Seiko movements.

I think it is a cool thing, but that is just me.


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

These watch companies wouldn't have to use the cheap Japanese movements. Seiko has the Grand Seiko movements, which are top of the line and rival many Swiss movements. They also have the new 4L25 automatic movement coming out which as 25 jewels. Then there is the 6R15 or 6R20 movements found in the Seiko Spirit watches. These are not cheap movements and from what I have read, they are top notch.

I would not want to see the movements from Seiko 5's used, but I could see the above movements being used.


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## roberev (Mar 15, 2006)

Gentlemen,

Your responses are one reason why I really enjoy this hobby and appreciate the various watch forums and their members. Thank you for this education.

Rob


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## ISAIL (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



thodgins said:


> The current management is trying to change that perception. The current CEO used to be the CEO of Glashutte Original.
> 
> If more people knew about Grand Seiko movements and that they rival Swiss/German movements, then maybe this would be better appreciated. I think people need to change their perception of the Seiko movements. Junghans is using the best Seiko movements.
> 
> I think it is a cool thing, but that is just me.


It seems to me the high end manufacturers say they "customize" the stock ETA movements anyway. If these manufacturers switched to japanese movements, and continued to customize, would a lot of people really stop buying them?


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## Francois Boucher (Feb 15, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



altro said:


> I take it you are not serious!


;-) I am really just trying to tease the gorilla...

The idea is not absurd to me: japanese calibers have gained enormously in quality over the years. Many Seiko calibers are at least as good, and often better, than the common Swiss ones. They are sometimes even very finely finished. Think of the Credor line, or the Grand Seiko. I have a fine SAGP001 automatic chronograph that has nothing to envy from a V7750 or Nouvelle Lemania 5100. (See pics below) (...I just hope georges zaslavsky does not find my address to come over & eviscerate me...)

The Seiko people do not go around bragging about how difficult & what a fantastic technical achievement it is & how it ecompasses centuries of fine craftsmanship, careful genetic selection & horological savoir-faire (& bla-bla-bla...) to create an auto chrono.

They just do it, and make a fine work of it.

The japanese caliber makers take on many more outstanding challenges. I deeply respect their talent.

That said, we most surely will NEVER, EVER see a foreign mechanism in a Swiss watch. This is just the most heretic, dirty, guilty, impeachable, indictable, liable, punishable, reprehensible, irresponsible, sinful, unholy, and finally, just plain wrong thought!

Even Franck Muller shivers at the very notion! ;-)

And Terry Allison also finds that idea painful. :-D

Remember that tiny "Swiss Made" text at the bottom of the face of your watch? There is a lot (of law...) hanging on these simple words...


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## Francois Boucher (Feb 15, 2006)

*"Swiss Made"... Read this!*

Here.


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## Dieselweasel (Jun 30, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*

Hello,



ISAIL said:


> It seems to me the high end manufacturers say they "customize" the stock ETA movements anyway. If these manufacturers switched to japanese movements, and continued to customize, would a lot of people really stop buying them?


For me an absolute pre-condition to be a high end manufacturer is that you build your own (manufacture) movements. Period.

Although my PO is medium to high priced (however you define the range personally), it's not high end. If I would be able to buy a high end watch it would come from Glashuette :gold

Cheers, Ralf


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## snorkeler (Sep 17, 2006)

rouge said:


> I do believe that very few present customers of many Swiss or German quality watch brands would accept a watch embedding a Japanese or a Chinese cheap calibre (even if finely "tuned"), at least I would not accept at all.....


Just like Japanese/Asian cars are accepted in Europe, Japanese/Asian watch movements will be accepted in Europe. It will not take long!


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

snorkeler said:


> Just like Japanese/Asian cars are accepted in Europe, Japanese/Asian watch movements will be accepted in Europe. It will not take long!


Sorry, I would not accept to buy Japanese/Asian watch movements. As well as I do not accept to buy at all Japanese/Asian cars (or bikes).


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## Dieselweasel (Jun 30, 2006)

snorkeler said:


> Just like Japanese/Asian cars are accepted in Europe, Japanese/Asian watch movements will be accepted in Europe. It will not take long!


It seems that we have to clarify that there is no homogeneous entity called "Europe".
Europe consists of 46 independent countries and much more nations and independent cultures. You can't e.g. compare the high developed countries (from a economic perspective) like Germany, Switzerland or Sweden with the former communistic countries like Romania, Bulgaria etc.

If you look on the acceptance of non-European cars in the different countries you'll see complete different acceptance rates.
But if you're looking to the luxury segment you won't see much e.g. Lexus cars in Europe. In most high developed countries the Japanese cars are mostly present in the low to medium level. In Germany the other Asian car manufacturers (Kia, Daewoo, SsanYong, ...) are targeting the low end of the "food chain". No one thinks of a Kia as an alternative to an Mercedes.

Would someone accept a Kia engine in a Mercedes? No, not at the moment. It doesn't fit to the customer's expectations.
But would someone accept a Kia engine in a Toyota? I think so.

I don't feel that this will be different in the area of mechanical watches in the near future.

Cheers, Ralf


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Dieselweasel said:


> It seems that we have to clarify that there is no homogeneous entity called "Europe".
> Europe consists of 46 independent countries and much more nations and independent cultures. You can't e.g. compare the high developed countries (from a economic perspective) like Germany, Switzerland or Sweden with the former communistic countries like Romania, Bulgaria etc.
> 
> If you look on the acceptance of non-European cars in the different countries you'll see complete different acceptance rates.
> ...


Ralf,

sorry, but an Alfa Romeo or a Mercedes makes me dream of all the history and tradition of the brand. And makes my heart beat stronger.
A Lexus or an Acura makes me feel comfortable and safe by driving, nothing else. Even if I do recognize that they are the best choice in terms of value-for-money and total quality. But I would never buy one.
Toyota is the best brand of the world in term of total quality, probably this might be true for Seiko and Myota calibres as well.
But they would never belong to my way of life, to my culture, to my tradition, so they would never able to satisfy myself.
It is not a matter of quality, for me. I would never buy an high-end Japanese calibre. Even if the brand on dial would be a Swiss or German one.


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

Dieselweasel said:


> If you look on the acceptance of non-European cars in the different countries you'll see complete different acceptance rates.
> But if you're looking to the luxury segment you won't see much e.g. Lexus cars in Europe. In most high developed countries the Japanese cars are mostly present in the low to medium level. In Germany the other Asian car manufacturers (Kia, Daewoo, SsanYong, ...) are targeting the low end of the "food chain". No one thinks of a Kia as an alternative to an Mercedes.
> 
> Would someone accept a Kia engine in a Mercedes? No, not at the moment. It doesn't fit to the customer's expectations.


Interestingly Mercedes has recently fitted engines into Ssangyongs and other Far Eastern brands (most usually their five and six-pot petrol and diesel engines). Has this given those lower-end brands a halo effect? Not really, especially as their marketing departments have chosen not to go down the "powered by Mercedes-Benz" route. You might surmise from this that the supplier of the internal movement has limited influence on the brand's appeal and that this influence is mainly controlled by the marketing team. However, upscale brands do have more to lose than lower ones, so the damage done to the brand is greater in the event that it is tarnished by the use of non-original, or non-traditional, movements.

Then again, Breitling sold a few watches in the 1990s with Miyota movements, when they were on the way up having produced some very expensive watches in the previous 10 years which weren't that special in the "engine room". Don't think it did them that much harm.


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

That's too bad. Each person has his or her own tastes and I understand. Seiko makes some really great calibres that are of a high quality and some are even affordable. 

To each his own.


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## Dieselweasel (Jun 30, 2006)

rouge said:


> Ralf,
> sorry, but an Alfa Romeo or a Mercedes makes me dream of all the history and tradition of the brand. And makes my heart beat stronger.


Also not sorry for me :-!
I absolutely agree with your statement.

But, as we see in this discussion, people are different and therefore like different things. This is very good in general. Otherwise everyone would like to have the same things and the prices would go up and up. Diversity is a key factor for a well balanced market.
So for me it's ok if someone would like to have a Seiko movement in his e.g. Omega watch - as long a it is not my Omega watch ;-)

Cheers, Ralf


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## Paulo (Feb 14, 2006)

You haven't misunderstood the PDF, ETA will reduce the sales of ebauches (raw movements) until 2010, when it will only sell finished movements. Presently they sell 85% ebauches and 15% finished movements.

That's why Parmigiani, for instance, started a movement produccion company (Vaucher).


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

_ edited, lost interest in other peoples problems_


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2006)

> cheap high quality mechanical movements


*Cheap* and *high quality* does not match today and will not match in the future. Justmy2centavos.


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## mtsagk (Jul 25, 2006)

stuffler said:


> *Cheap* and *high quality* does not match today and will not match in the future. Justmy2centavos.


i don't agree...


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

stuffler said:


> *Cheap* and *high quality* does not match today and will not match in the future. Justmy2centavos.


:-! I totally agree!!!
Maybe a watch could be reliable and cheap as many watches are.
Many military issued watches are a clear example of my statement.

But quality watches (and quality does not mean only "reliable", most part of the watches produced in the world are reliable and sharp) are expensive because of the finishing and manufacturing on mechanical components that must be handly performed by high-qualified technicians (generally called "watchmakers" ;-);-) ;-) ).
The BOM cost is only a small percentage of the industrial cost of a quality watch, if not considered watchmakers' craftmanship.


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## migo (Jun 4, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



Dieselweasel said:


> Hello,
> 
> For me an absolute pre-condition to be a high end manufacturer is that you build your own (manufacture) movements. Period.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about this. I noticed that Ulysse Nardin uses modified ETA movements. I'm curious how many other high end brands use modified ETAs.


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



migo said:


> I was wondering about this. I noticed that Ulysse Nardin uses modified ETA movements. I'm curious how many other high end brands use modified ETAs.


There's a lot of information about this on this forum and elsewhere.

Well-known premium brands which use ETA movements - either supplied as pre-built, ready-to-go novements which only need regulating, or a basic kit of parts which can be customised before assembly and tuning - include:

Breitling
Omega, Mido, Hamilton, Rado (arguably "in-house" since like ETA they are also owned by Swatch)
Oris
Doxa
IWC 
Panerai
Baume & Mercier
Chronoswiss
Tudor
Maurice LaCroix 
Ebel
Tag Heuer

Some of these brands also manufacture their own movements (IWC, Ebel frinstance) and some use movements other than ETA's (Panerai). Some are in the process of developing their own movements (Breitling).

There's a good write-up of ETA movements - and the extent to which you can say a movement is either still ETA or customised beyond recognition - here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=186764


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## Mathew J (Oct 18, 2006)

Dieselweasel said:


> Also not sorry for me :-!
> I absolutely agree with your statement.
> 
> But, as we see in this discussion, people are different and therefore like different things. This is very good in general. Otherwise everyone would like to have the same things and the prices would go up and up. Diversity is a key factor for a well balanced market.
> ...


I used to feel the same way however with seeing how horribly unreliable and expensive Mercedes is when compared to other brands the history/styling will only carry them so far in my eyes.

I would much more easily buy any japanese luxury car knowing that I can actually drive it constantly and when a service does come up it will be done correctly and won't break the bank....possibly if I had limitless wealth or a total disregard for value then brands like you mention would be an option but so long as the quality doesn't compare with the price I will opt to give them a pass. My wife and I used to buy german and American but after suffering with frequent and expensive repairs from companies that didn't care about the customer we switched to Japanese and haven't had a reason to look elsewhere.

As far as movements are concerned all I can say is good for Swatch, hopefully the talk of their movements being too widely used is put to rest.


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## KTM650M (Mar 22, 2006)

OldeCrow said:


> A generation ago watchmakers collectively stood around with their heads up their "arses" while cheap High quality japanese quartz watches took over the world, they had exactly that same attitude.
> 
> We are the generation that will see it happen again with cheap high quality mechanical movements.
> 
> The next twenty years of watchmaking is going to be very interesting!


WOW - many interesting arguments.
Wot will the future hold for us? 
Yep, Breitling did use cheap Jap quartz movements.
With only U$12.4 millions of turnover an 80 employees, they are not one of the "richest" in Switzerland. Corum turnover is U$69.9 (for example).
Junghans belongs to Egana - which is mainly Chinese.
There are 100s (hundreds) of brands that use ETA base movement or ETA movement on their watches. 
Worth a "peep" at http://www.orbita.net/pages/17101.htm 
not accurate and up to date - but it gives the general idea.
I bought a few ETA 2824 at £30 - and I know the seller made a profit (they came from a manufacturing company).
Automatic movements from China (the cheap and nasty - cost around $3 (the whole watch, at the Temple Street market costs U$10) - even the one marked Swiss made or Tourbillon.
At these prices I am not convinced that it will cost $1 million to start a factory. Some, good quality components can be brought in from China to Switzerland (voices are that this is already done by some firms).
It could very well be that Hayek wants to push the small firms out of business or buy them cheap - hence making the Swatch Group even stronger and bigger.
The Swiss are and have been ignoring the Internet. As much as they don't like it - it is here and looks like it is staying. In the last few years many companies are selling directly from the Internet (untinkable before 2000).
With so many brands popping out from all over the place - something has to happen. It will be interesting to see what brands like Glycine, Revue-Thommen, Oris and Tudor will be doing?


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2006)

> I bought a few ETA 2824 at £30 - and I know the seller made a profit (they came from a manufacturing company).


...and they came in top soigné quality ?????


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## KTM650M (Mar 22, 2006)

stuffler said:


> ...and they came in top soigné quality ?????


Mike, you know the prices, I am sure. They have probably gone up in recent months but you know well that basic ETA 2824 don't cost a lot.
In comparison, Japanese automatic movements, are probably half of the cost of a Swiss ETA.

This is one of my long standing arguments. WE ARE paying far too much for watches.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

stuffler said:


> ...and they came in top soigné quality ?????


Mike,

I've been many times at Temple Street market in Hong Kong, as well as in mainland China.
No, the movements are in standard grade without any finishing and even the coupling of movement parts are very poor (high tolerances and great plays among wheels, bridges with no any finishing and so on).
The prices are a little bit higher than 10 US$ (more or less 20 US$ but perhaps im not so able to bargain ;-) ), in any case all models showed are copies (in few cases good copies) of Swiss or German products.
In Shanghai there is a market dedicated only to copies.... :-( the government officially states they're fighting against this type of market, but I've seen directly the Shanghai police walking among market booths were copies were for sale doing nothing against this. :think:


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

KTM650M said:


> This is one of my long standing arguments. WE ARE paying far too much for watches.


Then you should instantly go out and capture some of that value for yourself, either by buying stock in a watchmaking company, working for a watch company, or starting your own.

No point in bleating about it - go out, and do it.


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## yingray (Feb 21, 2006)

A coule of years ago, ETA set up a factory in Zhuhai producing caliber parts, and later basic eta-2824, some lower end caliber, and quartz caliber. These mechnical cal. are mainly supplied for those brands of Swiss but assembled in Hong Kong, like Enicar, Titus, perhaps some Titoni. And I guess some brands of Swatch group even use, Swatch, Tissot, I was quite surprised at 2824 calibre of my Tissot RR100, no finish at all, some parts are plastic, and performance is quite so so. Sure some of them are aquired to produce fake Rolex, Tudor, that is not rare in Shenzhen and HK. (Shameful). In local market of Peking, I could see plenty supply of quartz caliber from eta, but very few mechnical, I recently replace the 955.122 of my Tag 2000, only costs me USD20, it costed me USD40 from TAG service center in 2002 without service fee. 

I never handle higher lever Seiko, like Credor or GS or Brightz, only ever owned 7s26/7s25 based diver, they are cheap made except the case, dial and lumibrite, and cannot maintain stable accuracy for some time, and totally no interest for me as mechnical watch. But Seiko and Citizen provide very good quartz watch, per my experience Seiko 7C46 and 8F56 quartz perform better than my ETA quartz, cost-effective solution. If Swatch no longer supply mechnical caliber to others, I am afraid I will have to choose quartz-based watch finally, as in-house caliber will be expensive to service as well as the watch price. On the other hands, more choice of calibre will be better for WIS anyway.


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## norak (Nov 15, 2006)

At the end of the day we're talking about the watch's internals here. If Seiko parts are just as accurate and reliable then effectively there is no difference except huge cost savings for manufacturers. Obviously there is more to watches than just pure engineering. There is also an artistic or marketing component. It is real only because (many) consumers perceive it to be real.

In my opinion, where the spatial location where something is made doesn't reasonably affect its quality. That is just logical. So whether I assemble a watch in my bathroom or my living room doesn't really affect the outcome. But other people may think it does and they may rationalize.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2006)

Due to other "inverstigations" I came across "technotime". TT is producing movements and moduls and others will do too. So siwss made movements will exist in the future.

TT= www.technotime.com


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2006)

Tragic said:


> Buy stock in sellita.


Yep, the SW 200 (made by Sellita and comparable to the ETA 2824-2) is already the heart of some Oris, Anonimo and Meistersinger watches.


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## AJPeters (Mar 16, 2006)

Just some rough data that came to my knowlegde in the past weeks:
Delivery times for ETA movements - for companies that are not part of the Swatch group:
7750 about 13 months
2824 about 9 months
2801 about 9 months
2804 about 9 months
2893 about 7 months
6497 about 9 months
(no source can be named so take it as estimated times, incl. order-confirmation time of about a month)

Suspected different pricing for Swatch group members and others.

The whole production output that is available for independent manufacturers and remonteurs was out in August this year, so they did not get a piece from then on and had to buy it from whoever they could get it. The volume is cut in the next year again and so i'd expect it to be out far earlier. Demand (for mechanical movements) has increased on about 20%. Prices have been raised by ETA and are now about 5% higher.
*Selitta* had some problem to fullfil all orders but it seems as if they have increased capacities a little, the delivery time is also about 9 months currently as far as i know.
*Claro* delivery times are unknown to me but they already have at least full scale productions with the CL888 (2824 clone, 3 hands with Date) and a subsidiary seconds automatic (also with date ?) model (both priced at about 2/3 of the comparable ETA on a 1000 pcs level but expected to increase with each ETA price lift)
*Technotime* is still planning to supply a lower priced model but only has their 120 hrs power reserve movement (that is really high priced) currently as far as i know.
The big German brands seems to go with *Nomos* and the idea of german made movements, but no sign for a low price level segment (as the 'workhorse' 28xx ETAs) from them. Currently Selitta seems to fill the gap in most cases.

Speculation: Some swiss companies are thinking about buying a chinese/japanese movement as base and adding enough to lift it to swiss made, but i don't know who has concrete planes there and doubt that the market will accept it easily. Whoeever uses it would have to add enough decoration (= value raised in Switzerland) to justify to call it swiss made (maybe would have to call it 'inhouse' also to avoid the linking to the main importers) to get rid of the asian origin.

Many say they'd like to buy larger stocks from ETA for future productions now at this price level but even if they would be able to do such investments - part one and two of this post clearly state, they can't, it's simply not enough stock available.

Some of these info comes from confidental data so please don't expect any clearification. Our company is involved in several large scale OEM productions and also in the production of promotional watches with several independent manufacturers.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2006)

*Another answer: Mühle-Sellita-Joint-Venture*

Mühle to become a manufactury ?

Already in 2005 Mühle CEO Hans Jürgen Mühle invested about 640.000 Euro
in order to 
enlarge the production facilities at Glashütte.
The new space was needed for the *GUROFA - Glashütter
Uhrenrowerkefabrik GmbH* - a joint-venture of Mühle-Glashütte Gmbh,
Nautische Instrumente & Feinmechanik and Sellita Watch Co. SA..

The name GUROFA was chosen very well because it links to the old
Glashütte watchmaking tradition of the UROFA.

Mühle and Sellita invested 5.800.000 Euro into their new machinery and
they are now on the way to become a manufactury. The total construction
time needed 6 month to establish the necessary premises on about 700
square meters. 17 watchmakers found new work places.

Both, Sellita and Mühle, received their movements and parts from ETA
which decided to change their policy. From 2010 ETA will not sell parts
to brands outside the Swatch holding. Only complete movements will be
available from then on.
At the official opening Miguel Garcia, CEO of Sellita, pointed out that
the launch of the GUROFA was a consequent step to substitute a 
supplier.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

*Re: Another answer: Mühle-Sellita-Joint-Venture*

:-! :-! :-!


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## John Vargas (May 30, 2006)

Omega Seamaster Professional 200m 1988 model...

You guys are going to kill me, but I sold my wifes midsize, when I found out the quartz movement was made by Myota!

Hence the fusion of Japan, and Swiss Tech...


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

rouge said:


> Ralf,
> 
> sorry, but an Alfa Romeo or a Mercedes makes me dream of all the history and tradition of the brand. And makes my heart beat stronger.
> 
> ...


The power of marketing? An Alfa would give you plenty of time to dream, while it is at the garage being fixed ... 

I would not buy a BMW/Mercedes/Audi given the high purchase costs, poor reliability and high servicing costs. Give me Nissan/Honda/Toyota/Ford any day.

But a watch is a luxury item. Rolex et al are selling a dream. If you work hard, one day you will be able to reward yourself with a Rolex. There's no way a Seiko will be seen as comparable to a Rolex/JLC/PP etc. Anyone can buy a Seiko in the local corner shop. To buy a Rolex, you go to a posh shop, with fancy displays, and unctuous staff with advanced degrees in ego pampering. Why else would people pay £4,000 for a relatively ordinary watch with a mass produced movement?

IMO the Japanese do not understand high end marketing.

However, the high end makers all have their own movements: PP, JLC, Rolex. Even many of the next tier down such as Zenith have their own movements. So it is perhaps the mid range and lower high end that will have trouble. But many of them come under the ETA umbrella. Would it matter so much if the others used a Japanese movement? I'm sure they could weazel it so that the case could carry the Swiss term. Maybe "Swiss Designed". Or perhaps they could negotiate with Seiko to manufacture Seiko movements under licence in a joint venture based in Switzerland.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> The power of marketing? An Alfa would give you plenty of time to dream, while it is at the garage being fixed ...
> 
> I would not buy a BMW/Mercedes/Audi given the high purchase costs, poor reliability and high servicing costs. Give me Nissan/Honda/Toyota/Ford any day.
> 
> ...


Some considerations: I own since 3 years ago an Alfa Romeo Spider 2000i(Graduate, for English language countries) produced in 1990 identical to this one:



















It had always been my dream since I was a young boy. The model, in four versions of bodywork but always identical to the original project, had been produced since 1966 until 1995 (I believe 29 years are a record for a car, only few models succeeded in having so a long history becoming legends, and it would not be possible for sure in case of defect at the origin!!!).
I bought it in *M I N T* conditions with only 50.000 km and 4 previous owners.
The car was stopped in a garage since 1 year, more or less.  
Some good elbow grease, a new battery, a general servicing (oils, filters, spark plugs and so on) and the car was ready to carry my girlfriend (now my wife), me and a lot (too much!!!) of luggage across Italy for summer holidays :-D .
We drived the Duetto in summer 2003 (this is the original name of this model) for 9.500 Km in 3 weeks with an average fuel consumption of 12,7 Km/l |> |> |> . Not bad, really, for an old Alfa. 
Now the car has about 80.000 Km made without any problem and needs only a standard servicing and a new top cover (the original one shows his age). Not bad, really.
Try to do the same with a 13-years-old Nissan/Toyota/Honda which original project comes from '66 -if available-.
Good luck, my friend. Keep the telephone number of your car service center on your mobile ;-) .
Of course, nowaday's Alfa Romeos have nothing to do with real Alfas (I mean, all the models developed before FIAT Group ownership and management of the brand <| <| <| <| !!!!!).
This is not my everyday's car, I have a Ford Ka (a small citycar) as well which has a great quality (Made in Germany!!) and worth all the (few) money I payed for it. I agree with you, present Fords are reliable - no any problem, at all. For BMW, Audi, Mercedes Benz I have no direct experience, but your statement seems right to me both in terms of costs and reliability. :-D 
Regarding watches, in my collection of more than 80 pieces, I have IWC, Omegas, TAG Heuers, Longines, Zeniths and many others brands, but not Rolex. And it had never been a matter of price tag (many pieces of my collection worth the price you stated) but always matter of feeling.
I believe that a wristwatch must satisfy the owner, firstly, and then tell him the time sharply without any problem for a long time (this is a basic requirement any wristwatch must have). And "satisfy the owner" could mean a lot of motivations, different person by person, that could bring someone to buy and to enjoy his beloved timepiece during the years of his life.
Japanese made (or developed, and then Swiss made) watches as well as Rolex watches have no feeling to me, so I would never buy both.


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

> and some use movements other than ETA's (Panerai).


Who's movements does Panerai use, I thought they used Unitas movements?


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2006)

lysanderxiii said:


> Who's movements does Panerai use, I thought they used Unitas movements?


Like Valjoux Unitas belongs to ETA ! So correctly writtem/spoken it's a ETA/Unitas.... or ETA/Valjoux.... or ETA/Peseux 7001


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

lysanderxiii said:


> Who's movements does Panerai use, I thought they used Unitas movements?


Panerai uses Unitas 6497/2 calibre (OP I, OP II, OP X, OP XI), ETA-Valjoux 7750 calibre (OP III and OP VIII, this is a GMT, OP IX, this is a power-reserve, OP XVIII, OP XIX), ETA-VAljoux 7753 calibre (OP XII), Zenith El Primero calibre (OP IV and OP VI, this is flyback), Frederic Piguet calibre (OP V), Zenith Elite 860 calibre (OP VII), Jaeger-Le Coultre calibre (OP XIV, eight days power reserve), 1 Angelus calibre (the historical one, from a pocket watch) and the new in-house movement.
Of course, I might be wrong because I'm not a fan of Panerai. ;-)


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

rouge said:


> Ralf,
> 
> sorry, but an Alfa Romeo or a Mercedes makes me dream of all the history and tradition of the brand. And makes my heart beat stronger.
> A Lexus or an Acura makes me feel comfortable and safe by driving, nothing else. Even if I do recognize that they are the best choice in terms of value-for-money and total quality. But I would never buy one.
> ...


I'm only using your answer to illustrate several others posted above. It seems to me that the overall negative feelings against Japanese movements and watches being expressed are not the result of the ability of Japanese companies to produce high quality movements and products (on par with their European counterparts), or their contributions to horology. It seems that at least based on today's products, that, as with cars, most of the rejection is based on an erroneous and outdated idea of inferiority or even prejudice (cultural, personal or otherwise).

To me the choice is pragmatic and fairly easy. Any company that is able to produce a product that at the very least is the equal of the market standard in terms of long term performance, usability and serviceability, is worth looking into. That the company may happen to be asian (Japanese in this case) is irrelevant.

Still there will be those who can't see past the brand on their watches - god bless you. Buying what you want is your prerogative, just don't tell me that my choice is somehow inferior when it obviously isn't. Like a friend of mine likes to say, if you don't want to buy a wider variety of products, there's nothing wrong with that. It only means there's more for me.


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

rouge said:


> Some considerations: I own since 3 years ago an Alfa Romeo Spider 2000i(Graduate, for English language countries) produced in 1990 identical to this one:
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Nice car. Alfa are often recommended by UK motoring journalists because they have soul, despite the current reputation for poor reliability. I can't comment on older ones.

I suspect that modern Ford and Nissan/Toyota etc will last but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Does not a Grand Seiko have soul? Nice designs, beautiful build quality and finish surely? If not, why not?

BTW I too own a Ford Ka though mine is made in Spain. I've had it 4.5 years from new and no problems, touch wood. As you say, well made, dirt cheap, a bargain.


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## Ricky (Apr 5, 2006)

"But they would never belong to my way of life, to my culture, to my tradition, so they would never able to satisfy myself."

Rouge

You have succinctly defined a philosophy of life which, because of globalization and immigration, I am afraid is slipping away.

Ricky


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## designdweeb (May 4, 2006)

I love much Japanese architecture, industrial design, even clothing and food, but ironically, their watch and photo equipment designs don't strike a chord and make my 'design bones' resonate the way the Swiss or German designs do.
I can appreciate the quality of the work, yet not respond intuitively. 
I would look forward to identifying an American aesthetic. Does it exist?
Just my two cents.


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> Nice car. Alfa are often recommended by UK motoring journalists because they have soul, despite the current reputation for poor reliability. I can't comment on older ones.
> 
> I suspect that modern Ford and Nissan/Toyota etc will last but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
> 
> ...


I do agree with you about cars, except about Alfa Duetto. Is not a nice car, it is a *grrrrreat* car, indeed :-D !!!
Unfortunately, all old AR are no more produced O| . My congratulation for the new AR management <| ,also for the poor reliability of new models.
By the way, I do agree about Ford Ka, a great value for money (I whish it could have some more HPs, only) but 160.000 Km with no problems in 5 years I think are a very good result. Probably my next one will be a Ford, again.
I never said that Japanese watches (such as Grand Seiko, but also standard models) or Japanese products have poor quality. In many cases their quality is at least comparable to Swiss or western ones, sometimes is even better. But, as I wrote in many previous posts, they're not my cup of coffee. Nothing else. It is not a matter of price tag (I still own many cheap Russian made watches bought in the past that enchanted me when I was a young boy) but charme.
Whatever watch you bought or you will buy, might your choice be by your feeling and enjoy it for a long time. Everytime you'll have a look at your wrist, you will be relieved for a while. :-!


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## rouge (Apr 18, 2006)

Isthmus said:


> I'm only using your answer to illustrate several others posted above. It seems to me that the overall negative feelings against Japanese movements and watches being expressed are not the result of the ability of Japanese companies to produce high quality movements and products (on par with their European counterparts), or their contributions to horology. It seems that at least based on today's products, that, as with cars, most of the rejection is based on an erroneous and outdated idea of inferiority or even prejudice (cultural, personal or otherwise).
> To me the choice is pragmatic and fairly easy. Any company that is able to produce a product that at the very least is the equal of the market standard in terms of long term performance, usability and serviceability, is worth looking into. That the company may happen to be asian (Japanese in this case) is irrelevant.
> 
> Still there will be those who can't see past the brand on their watches - god bless you. Buying what you want is your prerogative, just don't tell me that my choice is somehow inferior when it obviously isn't. Like a friend of mine likes to say, if you don't want to buy a wider variety of products, there's nothing wrong with that. It only means there's more for me.


Please, see my posts:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=204704#post204704

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=224724#post224724

And have a look to the others.
I never wrote that Japanes products have low quality.
I'm available to have you as a guest for a cup of coffee (I prefer it, instead of tea) or a beer (I prefer it, instead of Asians soft drinks :-() in January and February 2007 in China/Japan/Asia.
If not in this period, please, give me a later appointment during 2007 and I will be there :-! . Don't bring chopsticks. ;-) 
I'm available to have you as a guest as well in Italy on March 2007. I hope you'll not be on a diet and you like Italian fine wines |> .
But perhaps I'll be considered as not "politically correct", by preferring my own culture :-S.
Regards.


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## Porkpie (Oct 29, 2006)

What is all the fuss if complete movements will continue to be distributed?

If this is true, does it not mean that companies outside of the Swatch group could continue to use ETAs "under the hood" of their watches, but would not be able to order parts and essentially tinker with them and come up with a very modified ETA movement to perhaps their benefit?

There seems to be confusion as to what exactly will and won't be available to watch manufacturers from ETA come 2010. 

All that said, wouldn't there be a possibilty of ETA taking over some of the more respected Swiss watch companies that currently are not under the Swatch umbrella? Seems like it would benefit Swatch to continue to support these other watch companies assuming they do enough volume.


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## ISAIL (Sep 2, 2006)

Porkpie said:


> (snip) All that said, wouldn't there be a possibilty of ETA taking over some of the more respected Swiss watch companies that currently are not under the Swatch umbrella? (snip)


I certainly hope not. They already own to much of the watch industry for it to be healthy. Its like banks in the U.S. The buyouts and merger's are limiting our choices to the point that soon, the only choices will be bad and worse. Kind of like American politics... With the death of a healthy amount of competition comes the death of service, and value.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Well some companies started to be inhouse some time ago like CHOPARD and IWC with their new inhouse calibres. The cease of supply of eta ebauches to various manufacturers can be catastrophic like disappearance of brands and lay offs. In the mid 70's when the japanese quartz watches appeared on the european and american markets, it had a very negative on some swiss brands which disappeared because of the very small price of japanese watches at that time. See what did Nomos and Frederique Constant, they made their very own inhouse movement and result is that they built high quality timepieces with higher grade movements than firms using eta ebauches. Of course inhouse has a cost but inhouse is warrant of a better quality and stricter quality controls. With the marketing hype era of today, it is better to buy a true quality product with something proven and preferably inhouse than an overhyped marketing subcontracted product.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2006)

Ricky said:


> "But they would never belong to my way of life, to my culture, to my tradition, so they would never able to satisfy myself."
> 
> Rouge
> 
> ...


That's why I buy only watches completely designed, and utilizing all components from the USA. I won't buy a watch that contains parts from anywhere else in the world than the USA, or is assembled anywhere else....

yeah, I know......just making a point.


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

Isthmus said:


> I'm only using your answer to illustrate several others posted above. It seems to me that the overall negative feelings against Japanese movements and watches being expressed are not the result of the ability of Japanese companies to produce high quality movements and products (on par with their European counterparts), or their contributions to horology. It seems that at least based on today's products, that, as with cars, most of the rejection is based on an erroneous and outdated idea of inferiority or even prejudice (cultural, personal or otherwise).
> 
> To me the choice is pragmatic and fairly easy. Any company that is able to produce a product that at the very least is the equal of the market standard in terms of long term performance, usability and serviceability, is worth looking into. That the company may happen to be asian (Japanese in this case) is irrelevant.
> 
> Still there will be those who can't see past the brand on their watches - god bless you. Buying what you want is your prerogative, just don't tell me that my choice is somehow inferior when it obviously isn't. Like a friend of mine likes to say, if you don't want to buy a wider variety of products, there's nothing wrong with that. It only means there's more for me.


Having recently done some reading on the history of watchmaking, it's clear that the major contributions to mechanical watch development have taken place in the West, especially Holland, Germany, France, England, Italy and Switzerland. America has also made major contributions to the manufacturing methods. As far as I can tell, Japan has not made major contributions. No new power source, no balance wheel improvements, no new escapement. Maybe the Spring Drive could be considered, but IMO it's not really a true mechanical movement. So I guess in that sense, Switzerland does have history on its side. There really is a tradition in Europe. Sadly the tradition in England, once a great clock and watch making nation, seems to have died.

Personally, a high quality movement is just that whether it be Japanese or Swiss. It's the quality of the engineering that appeals to me. (I'm not massively taken by all this Geneva stripe business either.)


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> Maybe the Spring Drive could be considered, but IMO it's not really a true mechanical movement.


In that it's not powered by the movement of the wearer's wrist, yes. But it is fun watching all these Westerners trying to pigeonhole it


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

publandlord said:


> In that it's not powered by the movement of the wearer's wrist, yes. But it is fun watching all these Westerners trying to pigeonhole it


In that it contains electronics, and hence cannot be repaired by a skilled watchmaker. Also I presume that the lifetime is determined by the lifetime of the electronics, and spares will be in limited supply. So maybe in 15 years time if it fails, you might have to throw it.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

As long as we are on discussion of Swatch and ETA limiting the supply of movements, isn't Swatch doing the same with Nivarox harispring?

That can put a serious dent into the really high-end manufacturers.

Cheers


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> In that it contains electronics, and hence cannot be repaired by a skilled watchmaker. Also I presume that the lifetime is determined by the lifetime of the electronics, and spares will be in limited supply. So maybe in 15 years time if it fails, you might have to throw it.


Fair point - although being a Seiko, I expect it to go further between servicing than anything European. And I'm sure that Seiko will stand by its products, however they are conceived and constructed, and that for as long as Seiko is around, the watch can be serviced. Best to revisit this debate in 50 years or so - can the mods make it a sticky, please? ;-)


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## rbt (Feb 8, 2006)

To further your point, I purchased this quartz Seiko in the early 70's. It died a couple of years ago. I sent it to Seiko and 6 weeks later it came back as good as new.


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

publandlord said:


> Fair point - although being a Seiko, I expect it to go further between servicing than anything European. And I'm sure that Seiko will stand by its products, however they are conceived and constructed, and that for as long as Seiko is around, the watch can be serviced. Best to revisit this debate in 50 years or so - can the monds make it a sticky, please? ;-)


Fair enough. I'll see you in 50 years then. BTW I might not make it ...


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## Alan From New York (May 5, 2006)

*"Gearing Up"*



roberev said:


> I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


Nature abhors a vacuum. And so do the Swiss watchmakers. As ETA weans it's customers off their movements, existing movement companies will expand and new companies will appear. And then some watchmakers will buy them.

More watchmakers will develop in-house movements.

And a couple dozen will merge or go out of business.

Watch prices, which have risen steeply in the last couple of years will rise again.

It should be... interesting.


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

Is there anything stopping companies buying the complete movements, and then taking them to pieces, and finishing them according to their requirements e.g. replacing some bits, and tweaking others? Or will ETS put clauses in the sales contracts that allow them only to repackage the finished ETA movement? 

It seems odd because the use of an ebauche as the starting point for a watch is a tradition that is well over 100 years old in Switzerland. Originally it was quite literally a cottage industry until mechanisation took over. 

I presume the main casualties of this (if there are any) will be German companies, as most Swiss either have their own movements (JLC, Zenith, VC) or are part of the ETA empire (I might be wrong). 

I've noticed that Seiko are starting to realise that there is a market for mid-range mechanical watches, and they are starting to produce some quite nice products.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> I presume the main casualties of this (if there are any) will be German companies, as most Swiss either have their own movements (JLC, Zenith, VC) or are part of the ETA empire (I might be wrong).


Yes you might be wrong, Richmond Group, LVMH, and "independent" brands like Grovana (Revue Thommen), Epos, Davosa, Enigma, Favre Leuba, Oris, Longines, Alpina, Baume & Mercier, Berney Blondeau, Breitling, Montblanc, Fortis, Glycine Candino, Delma, Doxa, Eberhard, and lots of others.


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Yes you might be wrong, Richmond Group, LVMH, and "independent" brands like Grovana (Revue Thommen), Epos, Davosa, Enigma, Favre Leuba, Oris, Longines, Alpina, Baume & Mercier, Berney Blondeau, Breitling, Montblanc, Fortis, Glycine Candino, Delma, Doxa, Eberhard, and lots of others.


There's no need to adopt a snide and superior tone.

You mean the Richemont Group? I looked them up and they own or control: 
Piaget, Vacheron Constantin, Cartier and Baume & Mercier, Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC, A. Lange & Söhne and Panerai, Dunhill, Montblanc.

So that includes numerous companies with their own in-house movements, and hence design expertise.

LVMH includes the following:

Zenith, Tag Heuer, Dior Montres, Fred, Chaumet, Omas.

So that means that the above lay claim to a source of movements. As to whether that is sufficient, is unclear. Although I am far less knowledgeable than you on others on this, my naive guess is that the in-house movements would not suit (e.g. too expensive, and sophisticated for the mid-range brands), but the in-house expertise might allow rapid development of suitable movements.

The Swatch Group which covers ETA, includes:

Breguet, Blancpain, Longines, GO, Jaquet Droz, Leon Hatot, Omega, Rado, Union, Balmain, CK, Tissot, Hamilton, Certina, Mido, Swatch.

So that does leave quite a few brands without an obvious source of movements:

Grovana (Revue Thommen), Epos, Davosa, Enigma, Favre Leuba, Oris, Alpina, Berney Blondeau, Breitling, Fortis, Glycine Candino, Delma, Doxa, Eberhard, and lots of others.

Are these big sellers/names? (Apart from Brietling which mos tpeople have heard of.) In other words, do they employ a lot of people.

There are indeed quite a few mid-range brands (I just know you'll pick me up on that categorisation ...)

Anyway, I make no claims to knowledge, simply engaging in discussion, and polite corrections are welcome.


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## Alan From New York (May 5, 2006)

LeifUK said:


> There's no need to adopt a snide and superior tone.


*I don't believe Mike is being snide or superior. (Nor does he need defending.) He is merely stating that there are a lot more Swiss watchmakers than German.*


> You mean the Richemont Group? I looked them up and they own or control:
> Piaget, Vacheron Constantin, Cartier and Baume & Mercier, Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC, A. Lange & Söhne and Panerai, Dunhill, Montblanc.
> 
> So that includes numerous companies with their own in-house movements, and hence design expertise.
> ...


*I agree. A company that makes their own movements has a head start in designing movements for reasonably priced watches.

*


> The Swatch Group which covers ETA, includes:
> 
> Breguet, Blancpain, Longines, GO, Jaquet Droz, Leon Hatot, Omega, Rado, Union, Balmain, CK, Tissot, Hamilton, Certina, Mido, Swatch.
> 
> ...


*There's a lot going on right now behind closed doors. All of these companies are probably scrambling to find replacements for ETA. Many will be successful. Some won't.*



> Anyway, I make no claims to knowledge, simply engaging in discussion, and polite corrections are welcome.


*It's a great topic for discussion that will be more and more interesting in the next three years as we "watch" what happens. The only corrections needed are those to remind Mike that Longines and Montblanc are not independent companies and that Richmond is a city in Virginia. *


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

> *Richmond is a city in Virginia.*


Actually, it's a city in North Yorkshire.

The colonials just didn't have much imagination when naming stuff.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2006)

To LeifUK:

Please see the other thread 

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=238610#post238610


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## LeifUK (Nov 26, 2006)

stuffler said:


> To LeifUK:
> 
> Please see the other thread
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=238610#post238610


Okay, sorry. It's hard to know the tone of a posting from words.

Yes, I was mistaken about the brands. Thanks for the correction. The people who suffer might be us consumers, as it might mean less mid-range brands. But as Alan indicates, all we see is the tip of the iceberg, and we do not see the behind closed doors goings on.


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## Guest (Jan 20, 2007)

Triton said:


> right on! the Sellita SW200 is the new ETA 2824.


Yep, and the A10 from Indtec is the new ETA 2892-2










There´s always a way out


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## JohnT (Apr 30, 2005)

Far too much sensationalism here guys! Swatch are not going to stop selling fully assembled ETA movements, but what they are going to do is to stop selling movement "blanks"

Here is an extract from the Swiss Competitions authority's annual report

_In the watch industry, the investigation into ETA SA Manufacture Horlogère Suisse (hereinafter: ETA), a subsidiary of the Swatch Group, was concluded with the finding that ETA was abusing its dominant position. ETA had had the intention to discontinue its supply of ébauches (movement blanks) from January 2006 and thereafter to supply only fully assembled watch movements ("phasing out"). The investigation revealed that ETA held a dominant position in the market for Swiss made mechanical ébauches up to a unit price of CHF 300.--. The termination of supplies has to be regarded as an unlawful refusal to do business and therefore as an abusive practice. For numerous competitors, the implementation of the phasing-out within such a short time meant in practical terms that they had been deprived of the basis for their business activity, as there was no alternative supplier. In an amicable settlement, ETA has undertaken to supply the ébauches until the end of 2008 at the current volume and thereafter for two further years at a reduced volume. This will create a situation in which alternative production plants may be set up (RPW 2005/1)_

This is the culmination of several competitions decisions and is probably the reason that Breitling and others are developing their own movements.

ETA (who also encompass Valjoux and Unitas) will stop selling movement blanks completely by 2010 and will only sell fully finished movements to third parties.


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## pipes (Feb 9, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Yep, the SW 200 (made by Sellita and comparable to the ETA 2824-2) is already the heart of some Oris, Anonimo and Meistersinger watches.


That movement is well seems to be having a lot well some crown and date changing problems Iam sure they will work out the kinks thou ! also my watchguy says there no ready supply of parts right now for the SW200 and there pose to come out with a clone of the 7750 and others in the next yr or so !:-s 
...Things are a changing ... :-(


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## Triton (Oct 17, 2006)

stuffler said:


> There´s always a way out


yes mike, but maybe the SW 200 isn't the way, as i found out, that the movement depends on certain parts from ETA. unless Sellita is able to produce these parts themselves in the future, it won't be the new 2824-2.

haven't heard about indtec yet, will have to do some research.

maybe chinese parts assembled in switzerland or germany could also become an option??? i think yes.


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## Guest (Jan 21, 2007)

Worth another research: Eterna 3030, a new movement with "big date" indication !


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## publandlord (Aug 15, 2006)

pipes said:


> That movement is well seems to be having a lot well some crown and date changing problems Iam sure they will work out the kinks thou !


I hope so. Maybe they can use my sports watch as a benchmark - it has a SW200 in it and is bug-free. It's worn from time to time and doesn't live on a winder, so the crown and date change are employed frequently an faultlessly. 


> also my watchguy says there no ready supply of parts right now for the SW200 and there pose to come out with a clone of the 7750 and others in the next yr or so !:-s
> ...Things are a changing ... :-(


I've looked closely as a SW200 and a 2824-2 and they appear identical, to this layman at least. Sellita also refers to its SW200 as a 2824 clone, happily quoting this on its website, although whether than extends to all service parts I don't know.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2007)

*Interesting read>>>>>>>>>>>*

Same topic, interesting summary: http://www.europastar.com/europastar/magazine/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003535554


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## ScRuMbLe (Jun 5, 2006)

snorkeler said:


> Just like Japanese/Asian cars are accepted in Europe, Japanese/Asian watch movements will be accepted in Europe. It will not take long!


Why, if japanese cars are far way better than american ones?


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## nytrokiss (Jun 28, 2007)

rouge said:


> Mike,
> 
> I've been many times at Temple Street market in Hong Kong, as well as in mainland China.
> No, the movements are in standard grade without any finishing and even the coupling of movement parts are very poor (high tolerances and great plays among wheels, bridges with no any finishing and so on).
> ...





yingray said:


> A coule of years ago, ETA set up a factory in Zhuhai producing caliber parts, and later basic eta-2824, some lower end caliber, and quartz caliber. These mechnical cal. are mainly supplied for those brands of Swiss but assembled in Hong Kong, like Enicar, Titus, perhaps some Titoni. And I guess some brands of Swatch group even use, Swatch, Tissot, I was quite surprised at 2824 calibre of my Tissot RR100, no finish at all, some parts are plastic, and performance is quite so so. Sure some of them are aquired to produce fake Rolex, Tudor, that is not rare in Shenzhen and HK. (Shameful). In local market of Peking, I could see plenty supply of quartz caliber from eta, but very few mechnical, I recently replace the 955.122 of my Tag 2000, only costs me USD20, it costed me USD40 from TAG service center in 2002 without service fee.
> 
> I never handle higher lever Seiko, like Credor or GS or Brightz, only ever owned 7s26/7s25 based diver, they are cheap made except the case, dial and lumibrite, and cannot maintain stable accuracy for some time, and totally no interest for me as mechnical watch. But Seiko and Citizen provide very good quartz watch, per my experience Seiko 7C46 and 8F56 quartz perform better than my ETA quartz, cost-effective solution. If Swatch no longer supply mechnical caliber to others, I am afraid I will have to choose quartz-based watch finally, as in-house caliber will be expensive to service as well as the watch price. On the other hands, more choice of calibre will be better for WIS anyway.


I assume that a few fall off the back of the truck


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## TNTTNT (Mar 11, 2006)

I have joined the party quite late, and found out about the cessation of ebauche supply. It is really sad as I thought that ebauche use in history was not uncommon or dishonorable. It seems that Swatch has butchered movement manufacturers, like Lemania, Valjoux and ETA. I found this topic because I was trying to find out on Google why Swatch killed off the Lemania 5100.

I've heard some quotes in the thread which surprise me. One comment that the Japs haven't innovated in mechanicals. It is in some of our lifetimes that they simultaneously pioneered the automatic chronograph.

It seems strange to me that one quote suggested high prices indicate high quality. It doesn't follow in my opinion that a Rolex Seadweller is better than an Omega Planet Ocean because it is 50% dearer.

In an open debate I really hope Seiko fill the void with a range of chronometer grade movements. If anyone is in any doubt of their pedigree, read about the timing competitions in the 50's and 60's, where the beat many of the Swiss players. Do an image search on Google and you will find many Seikos with Chronometer proudly sitting on the dial.

From the official releases I am guessing that Swatch want to kill off small niche players, push up prices, push competitors into a movement battle Swatch think they can win, and not really raise standards.

I collect Omegas, so I have no reason to be bitter toward them, other than this new news to me. If Seiko produce some of their movements in Switzerland, I wonder if they can join the chronometer movement game.


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## ToddG (May 19, 2007)

TNTTNT said:


> If Seiko produce some of their movements in Switzerland, I wonder if they can join the chronometer movement game.


Smarter yet, Japanese watch manufacturers should work with the Japanese government -- which is historically very accommodating of Japanese businesses -- to establish a competitor to COSC. If they established a standard which was just marginally tighter than COSC and could produce movements to that standard with regularity, they could claim "better than COSC certification" ...


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## TNTTNT (Mar 11, 2006)

You're right, but Seiko already have a timing certificate with their Grand Seiko, which I believe has slightly better tolerances than Swiss COSC issued chronometer status.

I think that Seiko do need to play the Swiss at their own game and find some way of restamping chronometer on their high end dials, so people will start paying a bit more attention to them.

I would like to see Hayek's reaction to that. I am sure his strategy is to take out the small players and leave a bigger gap between those who can afford mechanicals and those who can't. Innovation or technical excellence has nothing to do with things in this move.


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

Those companies will have to source movements from other companies such as Stellita. Many have been switching from auto and mechanical movements from Ronda because of this. Some will even come out with their own movements which will be adatations of older movement types. Here again this is already taking place. So don't fret. There are steps these smaller makers can take to stay in business. 

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## rec (Feb 18, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Asked whether they would continue to buy Eta movements if the prices will increase w.g. Breitling answered "Yes, we have no alternative," and Dubois-Depraz even stated that they "would continue to buy ébauches from ETA even if the prices will climb up to 200 % or more, because there is no alternative."
> For the customer, the result is simple: Prices for mechanical watches will continue to go up.


I dont' think it's that easy to raise prices--Invicta could become even more popular I guess. What I don't understand is, aren't they going to lose money too? I would think someone would step in and begin to provide movements to fill in a need in the market. My 2c.


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2007)

rec said:


> I would think someone would step in and begin to provide movements to fill in a need in the market. My 2c.


Tell me who is going to step in. Tell me who will (or is able) to invest millions of Swiss Francs or USD. Up to know there´s no "big" competitor, Sellita isn´t, Dubois-Depraz and all other niche producers aren´t, Seiko could fit in but are they willing to expand ? ETA is a multi-billion-dollar-enterprise to compete with.


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## TNTTNT (Mar 11, 2006)

It may be unlikely but I wonder, and even perhaps hope, some of the bigger players may form a joint venture, and the smaller players can help out by guaranteeing custom. With Breitling there must be enough mass to make the project cost out.

I can't see a problem if many competing firms use the same base movement, because they do now anyway. In a JV at least they can share the load of investment. Who knows, bring in Seiko to the group as well and you may have F1's winning Williams Honda and Maclaren Honda all over again (6 consecutive constructors titles, and 5 consecutive drivers titles.)

May be in my prayers some one will crank on the tooling on lemania 5100's again, even though I doubt Swatch will ever sell or allow the rights.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2007)

TNTTNT said:


> It may be unlikely but I wonder, and even perhaps hope, some of the bigger players may form a joint venture, and the smaller players can help out by guaranteeing custom. With Breitling there must be enough mass to make the project cost out.


Right but *if* Breitling would invest money to create inhouse movements they probably wouldn't share becuase of the technical edge they would generate.



> I can't see a problem if many competing firms use the same base movement, because they do now anyway. In a JV at least they can share the load of investment. Who knows, bring in Seiko to the group as well and you may have F1's winning Williams Honda and Maclaren Honda all over again (6 consecutive constructors titles, and 5 consecutive drivers titles.)


I doubt but future will tell.



> May be in my prayers some one will crank on the tooling on lemania 5100's again, even though I doubt Swatch will ever sell or allow the rights.


The Swatch Group for sure will not share their Lemania 5100 ! Why should they ?


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## TNTTNT (Mar 11, 2006)

I can understand your points and because no one has a crystal ball, who knows the right answer.

I also don't know the dynamics, risks and returns on investment in the watch industry. It may be Breitling may generate more cash from supplying other decent operators, rather than bank on increased sales from selling more watches, due to an exclusive movement. If it is risky, or payback takes a long time, sharing investment may also be worth considering.

The main reason why Breitling might not want to share their toys is for the same reason as Swatch. They may benefit from the death/hindrance of smaller companies. This is especially so given some of these manufacture flight watches, like Sinn.

That's why I like forums like these, because it is good to debate an discuss.


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## dibetu (Feb 12, 2006)

Now, why on earth should the Swatch group (ETA) sell to outside parties if they can hardly keep up with demand within their group.
Swatch (ETA) were happy selling near to cost price a few years ago in order to keep floating. Now, why should they invest millions in a totally different environment, if not billions, to supply others.
ETA will still produce their movements at full capacity just for their own group. And never forget the profit within the SWATCH group is from SWATCH and then from the other brands within the group and only then way down the line from selling of movements to third parties.
Then, wages in Switzerland.... the old story..... wages... for a workforce that is only a few yards ahead of China in eduction and productivity. 
If you have not gotten the philosophy yet , *Hayek's* comments over the past few years: He wants to increase profit margins in Switzerland. Only possible with the top boutique brands. Not the likes of Swatch and movement supply. The only way he will be able, is to stop supplying cheap movements full stop. Up to now his competition that purchased his movements have pulled down his prices. Look at all the Swatch group brands, they have all introduced their own inhouse movements and they will cost more money to buy. Hayek is now going 180 degrees against his own success receipe of supplying cheap watches to the gentry and making sure a watch is a fashion accessory purchased in multiples. His new phylosophy is Breguet, Blancpain, Omega, Glashuette Original, top end horology in Switzerland and Europe. Hayek is also behind the move to make the term Swiss made more restricted, in order for his brands to charge more and make a higher margin. If we want Swiss we will have to pay a lot more.
My take is this: Hayek is a smart Wolf. Don't be fooled. I am active in business in China and I have seen factories built with money from the Swatch Group. They manufacture components at the moment, they are far more modern than anything I have seen in Switzerland. (I have a base and grew up in Biel, the home of the Swatch group.) The workers in China have Gyms and Swimmingpools, Accomodation and the most modern work environments I have seen in my life. They will replace the current ETA movements. A new product offering (superior quality) cheaper than Sellita and the likes. Why do you think did they not develop their movements any further in the past ten years? They never bothered to increase capacity in Switzerland or to replace old tools and machinery. Don't think for a minute that ETA will hand over a business to Sellita or the likes copying 30 year old technology. The new technology will come from the east. (Hayeks own words: We don't fight them, we join them.) ETA will produce automatic movements with all the complications at the fraction of todays production cost in China. Switzerland will be reserved for the very exclusive top end hand made horology for which Swatch will be able to increase its margins.
It is a sneaky push to make the term Swiss made more exclusive, products more expensive and at the same time eliminating his current customers, competion, even more bcause if thay want their own movement millions will have to be invested, millions small firms don't have, so their only option will be far east. We will face a new world....a better Swatch world?


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## TNTTNT (Mar 11, 2006)

dibetu said:


> It is a sneaky push to make the term Swiss made more exclusive, products more expensive and at the same time eliminating his current customers, competition, even more bcause if thay want their own movement millions will have to be invested, millions small firms don't have, so their only option will be far east. We will face a new world....a better Swatch world?


Rather than "a better Swatch world", I would say a nastier Swatch world. Any world where there is less choice and variations can not be a change for the better. Are you saying a world without Sinn and alike is a better world?

In terms of trying to go up market with in house movements is great, unless the movements are worse than the current Valjoux/Lemania offerings. The 33xx series is a bit of a joke. Type 33xx and problem in to google and you should have enough material. It was unreliable, not robust and had design/material flaws.

I Should reign in my negativity, and say that if there is new manufacturing investment, and better conditions for the workers in these plants, this can only be a good thing for economics and humanity.

If the Swiss competition authorities thought we have reached a better Swatch world, they wouldn't have put all the conditions on cessation of supply. I would rather have Omega and family go upmarket by supplying superior products, rather than restricting supply.


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## JustJon (Aug 13, 2007)

Hi,

Forgive my ignorance but I have some questions:

1) Why would they want to stop selling the movements? O.K so some small companies might go down, but surely not that many. And why would a company like Swatch need small companies to collapse, will it really increase their watch sales that much? I would of thought they would loose far more by no longer selling the movements.

2) Which companies use Swatch/ETA movements

3) What are the alternatives?

Thanks


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## Guest (Aug 24, 2007)

JustJon said:


> Hi,
> 
> Forgive my ignorance but I have some questions:
> 
> 1) Why would they want to stop selling the movements? O.K so some small companies might go down, but surely not that many. And why would a company like Swatch need small companies to collapse, will it really increase their watch sales that much? I would of thought they would loose far more by no longer selling the movements.


Reading this thread and other Swatch Gruop related threads will help you to find out;-)



> 2) Which companies use Swatch/ETA movements


The better question would have been: Who's not ? The high-end-brands don't (see Patek P., Vacheron & Constantin, Breguet, A. Lange & Söhne, Galshütte Original, Rolex, AP, GP.........)



> 3) What are the alternatives?


Read this thread and you'll find some alternatives (like Sellita) or do a forum search "Sellita".


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## SENTRAROB (Apr 19, 2007)

It would seem to me that if you're on a budget and would like to purchase a quality swiss timepiece one should do it before 2010. A lot of Chrono's use the ETA/Valjouz 7750 not to mention other mechanical and quartz companies. This will UNDOUBTLY raise the cost of swiss timepieces immensely so that the "average Joe" will never be able to afford one. ETA is on the move to monopolize the movement industry and may well succeed to drive MOST small companies out of business. Very sad indeed!!
Rob L


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## dibetu (Feb 12, 2006)

Yes, Swiss made will be more expensive, more exclusive and hopefully better in quality but who knows. The question at the end of the day is, are customers willing to pay for it or will they loose market share? ETA is preparing to manufacture movements Far East that will jump into the vaccum created, but it will no longer be Swiss Made. There will also be a lot of alternatives out there Swiss Made. In my oinion the quality will be nearly as good, as todays movements, although produced by ETA in Switzerland, a big percentage of parts and materials are of Far East origin already. As I said before, the Swatch group are very calculating and they are not going to give away their bread and butter that is affordable watches, while moving margings in the high end market to a Lolex level.


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## SENTRAROB (Apr 19, 2007)

Can anyone tell me how this will affect TAG Heuer and the LVMH repair/service division?? Will this affect the avaliability of parts needed for repair/replacement of the Valjoux 7750??
Thank you for your help!!
Sincerely,

Rob L:-s


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## ToddG (May 19, 2007)

Any and all 7750 movements used in watches manufactured by non-SWATCH Group companies will *stop* and no longer function at midnight, 1-Jan-2010. Among WUS, this is being called "the Y2k.01 bug" and an entire cottage industry is building up in preparation for the catastrophes that will occur when pilots and divers everywhere can no longer tell time.

Not surprisingly, Apple Inc. is first to respond to the problem with their new iWatch, which is Y2k.01 compatible, is available is twelve different colors, and will retail for only 2-3 times what an otherwise equivalent watch costs (aka, "Rolex pricing"). Lines have already started forming at Apple Stores around the country in anticipation of the September 2009 release.


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## SENTRAROB (Apr 19, 2007)

WOW!! I never thought of that and they think WE are stupid!! (HA HA)


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## dbluefish (Apr 4, 2007)

To heck with Swatch. They messed with Zodiac as i understand it, and now this, and their cars are a joke. But I hear the Selitta 200 is as good or better that the base 2824 and that they can compete quality and price wise all the way up the line.

Is this true? I could see how some enterprising outfit would just love to step in and Selitta has been in the business.

Just my 3 cents worth

paul


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2007)

dbluefish said:


> To heck with Swatch. They messed with Zodiac as i understand it, and now this, and their cars are a joke. But I hear the Selitta 200 is as good or better that the base 2824 and that they can compete quality and price wise all the way up the line.
> 
> Is this true? I could see how some enterprising outfit would just love to step in and Selitta has been in the business.
> 
> ...


Well, as already stated the Sellita 200 is just a clone of the ETA 2824-2. So quality shouldn be an issue. Quantity is the problem. Sellita will not reach the output of ETA without some "big":-d investments.


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## Evil_Alien (Oct 8, 2007)

The point is not, that the swatchgroup is stopping to supply movements, but they are only supplying *completely assembled* movements. Sideeffect is, that the price of an assembled movement is higher, than that of the ebauches.

That leads to 4 basic possibilities for the companies:

1. disassemble the movements, building Your own movements out of the parts:

Makes ingoing quality control quite tough, makes production a lot more expensive.

2. Use the complete unmodified ETA movement, where You will not read the brandname engraved, but just ETA.

That will be the choice of most lowlevel brands, where it really does not matter, how the movement inside the case looks.

3. Transfer Your complete knowhow for addons or modules to ETA and have them produce complete movements to Your specifications (ETA will do that)

That will cause an incredible dependance on ETA, and nobody will voluantarily give up his own knowledge.

4. Develop and/or build Your own movements.

Some companies started with that. Maurice Lacroix has already started with its first basic calibers. Breitling is building a new giant building, where they will probably start full production. The patent for the valjoux 7750 for example has already expired. Everyone could produce it himselfs. Even Eterna has decided to build their own production (which they had until the quartz watch killed it), the Porsche family is investing a couple of millions...

Of course the pricing for those movements will increase, but the dependance on Eta will sink, specially concerning delivery periodes. It happens frequently already, that the whole production of an emboitage (putting movements, dials, hands and case together) stands still, because ETA does not supply parts in time.

All together You have to see that whole situation as a chance to increase competition, force new developments and bring some movement in a market, that is mostly dominated by companies, sitting in small swiss sidevalleys.

When a change is going to happen, You never know, if it will be good or bad, but to improve a situation, You have to change something.

BG
Thomas


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## tzd (Oct 8, 2007)

I dont think Swatch allows retail sales from regular retail stores, so this move would not surprise me.


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## amaille (Nov 5, 2007)

I received the same news, so ETA pulled the plug. I did a research last year, to make your own movement costs approx. 2.000.000 euro (including the research), yahoo for the small companies.

Antoon


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## Dieselgeek (Sep 27, 2007)

I've owned two Euro cars. 1992 300E w/ 177,000 miles great shape runs like a dream.
The other was a 2001 Audi TT 1.8T 150,000 miles on it. For the last 100,000 miles I've been pushing twice the stock boost on the turbo and it runs fine. NO major problems. 

I'm sold.


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## Guest (Nov 8, 2007)

Dieselgeek said:


> I've owned two Euro cars. 1992 300E w/ 177,000 miles great shape runs like a dream.
> The other was a 2001 Audi TT 1.8T 150,000 miles on it. For the last 100,000 miles I've been pushing twice the stock boost on the turbo and it runs fine. NO major problems.
> 
> I'm sold.


Where´s the connection with ETA ?, Watches ?:think::think:


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## Skans (Oct 3, 2007)

I'd love to see Zenith based chronographs!!! I don't know how much more it costs to produce the Zenith 400 or 410 over the Valjoux 7750, but I doubt that it's more than $100 - $200. I'd pay an extra couple of hundred dollars for a Kobold with a Zenith movement in it!!


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## Dieselgeek (Sep 27, 2007)

stuffler said:


> Where´s the connection with ETA ?, Watches ?:think::think:


Sorry I read a couple of pages back where people were \sayin euros were not good cars.


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## aBlogtoWatch (Mar 13, 2007)

*Sellita Movement Makers: A Little Bit of China In Switzerland*








Most watches companies do not make their own movements. Quality watch makers buy their movements from mostly ETA, the quasi-government owned movement powerhouse. In 2010 however, ETA will stop selling its movements to outside companies. It will continue to provide movements for it's house brands, of which there are several. ETA is part of the Swatch Group which makes a number of brands as seen in the link. When ETA stops providing movements to out-side brands, they will have to go elsewhere for movements.

Sellita is a growing movement maker in Switzerland, but has had a bit of a copycat history. They mostly copied ETA movements. Can they do this? Well, probably, at least in the US. Most ETA movements have been around for a while and in the US Patents last for 20 years only. Because movements are machines, they only intellectual property protection they would have is a patent, and presumably the European patent laws are similar to those of the US. Take the ETA 2824-2 movement, which has been around since the 1970s. Because over 20 years has passed since the, copycats are free to make the movements, the only barrier would be technology. Meaning Sellit and other movement makers would have to have the proper machinery to produce the delicate movement parts. China on the other hand would never even think to check on infringing intellectual property rights before copying something.

We can assume that Sellita has such technology because large brands such as Invicta have been buying from them at large for years. It is predicted that Sellita will step in ETA's shoes and start providing movements on a mass scale in the next few years. Right now, Sellita has a reputation for being a bit lower quality, but that will change in the coming years with high production, and consumer demand. We shall wait and see what role Sellita has in the next few years.


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## fabrizio6148 (Mar 3, 2007)

roberev said:


> I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


Yes I read it in a Italian magazine. What means this is easy to understand. The manifactures will live , the others well I don't know.....


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## Xaltotun (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Sellita Movement Makers: A Little Bit of China In Switzerland*



pyrogeist2 said:


> Right now, Sellita has a reputation for being a bit lower quality, but that will change in the coming years with high production, and consumer demand. We shall wait and see what role Sellita has in the next few years.


I had an Oris with the Sellita movement, and through the display back you could see the movement, it looked hastily put together and poorly finished (i.e., rough edges and marked surfaces).

In the light and with the proper angle, you even could see tiny particles of dust (lint?) on it. You can bet it did not give the impression of quality, it looked like a Chinese knock-off.

On the other hand, I had another Oris with an ETA movement and it looked much nicer. The only thing I never warmed to was the red rotor.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2008)

*Re: Sellita Movement Makers: A Little Bit of China In Switzerland*



pyrogeist2 said:


> Most watches companies do not make their own movements. Quality watch makers buy their movements from mostly ETA, the quasi-government owned movement powerhouse. In 2010 however, ETA will stop selling its movements to outside companies. It will continue to provide movements for it's house brands, of which there are several. ETA is part of the Swatch Group which makes a number of brands as seen in the link. When ETA stops providing movements to out-side brands, they will have to go elsewhere for movements.
> 
> Sellita is a growing movement maker in Switzerland, but has had a bit of a copycat history. They mostly copied ETA movements. Can they do this? Well, probably, at least in the US. Most ETA movements have been around for a while and in the US Patents last for 20 years only. Because movements are machines, they only intellectual property protection they would have is a patent, and presumably the European patent laws are similar to those of the US. Take the ETA 2824-2 movement, which has been around since the 1970s. Because over 20 years has passed since the, copycats are free to make the movements, the only barrier would be technology. Meaning Sellit and other movement makers would have to have the proper machinery to produce the delicate movement parts. China on the other hand would never even think to check on infringing intellectual property rights before copying something.
> 
> We can assume that Sellita has such technology because large brands such as Invicta have been buying from them at large for years. It is predicted that Sellita will step in ETA's shoes and start providing movements on a mass scale in the next few years. Right now, Sellita has a reputation for being a bit lower quality, but that will change in the coming years with high production, and consumer demand. We shall wait and see what role Sellita has in the next few years.


I can´t agree that Selita has a reputation for beeing a bit lower quality. The SW 200 even has one more jewel ;-)

You may also read here: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=121543


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## Xaltotun (Apr 19, 2007)

*Re: Sellita Movement Makers: A Little Bit of China In Switzerland*



stuffler said:


> The SW 200 even has one more jewel ;-)


To *_me_*, it seemed the Sellita in my Oris had slightly inferior finishing. _Bien sûr_, I can't speak for all movements produced ( LOL ), but at that time, intrigued, I researched this and many posts in various forums were pointing towards the same conclusions as mine.

And, we all know one more jewel won't be the guarantee of a better movement, just an indication that an additional jewel was used in the movement. After all, haven't I seen somewhere that some Chinese movements even have 30 jewels.... ;-) ?


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## RickH86 (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*

Maurice LaCroix has built a new factory (1 hour from where I live) and are making their own movements now. Assuming they can meet demand, I'm sure some of the smaller companies will buy from them and others developing their own movements.


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## Uncle Bill (Mar 25, 2008)

Interesting thread, one wonders if Switzerland has restraint of trade laws in regards to Swatch Groups business practices. I tend to subscribe to the Nature abhores a vaccuum school of thought. While Sellita need to make an upfront investment to increase capacity, I think it would be in the interests of the independent watch companies see that this company prospers so they can get a secure source of movements. 

Lets not forget what Swatch is running after which is the high end and high margin watch market. Considering the state of the economy in North America depending where you live and what you do, a brand spankin new Omega Planet Ocean may not be on your shopping list if you are in financial services sector and you just got laid off. 

One demographic that Swatch group counts on as customers are hurting big time at the moment so one wonders if moving super high end is the right business model to embrace at this point in time.


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## larsy (May 16, 2008)

I think dibetu has it nailed.

Maybe we Swiss, and others, will begin to innovate more again instead of perfecting ETA casing.

By innovation I don't mean ridiculous complications or the n-th tourbillon variant.
I mean innovation in developing new materials, oils, alloys etc - the boring stuff ;-)

And I wouldn't mind a Seiko, Citizen or other movement in Swiss watches.
Seiko is one of the few manufacturers who can even make the main spring.
Serves us right for only concentrating on the bling instead of substance.


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

John Theobald said:


> Far too much sensationalism here guys! Swatch are not going to stop selling fully assembled ETA movements, but what they are going to do is to stop selling movement "blanks"
> 
> Here is an extract from the Swiss Competitions authority's annual report
> 
> ...


I know this one was last edited well over a year ago and no-one may be paying attention any more, but I can always hope!

First, I guess I don't know the difference between ebauches and blanks. But if non-Swatch companies are refused access to one, but not the other, the difference in price would simply be passed on to the market and life would go on. From what I've seen on the subject of even the retail price of ETA movements, wholesale prices must be derisory, so the difference between ebauches and blanks can't be very serious anyway.

If ETA movements are not going to be available to the likes of Breitling who are essentially dependent on them, and if this situation has been known to be pending for at least five years, I can't believe that alternative suppliers haven't been furiously churning away, developing new movements to take ETA's place.

I also can't believe that people like Breitling themselves haven't been developing the capability to make the their own movements, ETA movements under license, or close equivalents themselves.

And finally, I don't think I can believe that ETA would deliberately deprive themselves of what must be an extremely lucrative source of income...... and for what purpose? If they put the companies who now are dependent on their movements out of business in order to snatch the business for themselves, will they necessarily get that business? What would be their motive?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

artec said:


> I know this one was last edited well over a year ago and no-one may be paying attention any more, but I can always hope!
> 
> First, I guess I don't know the difference between ebauches and blanks. But if non-Swatch companies are refused access to one, but not the other, the difference in price would simply be passed on to the market and life would go on. From what I've seen on the subject of even the retail price of ETA movements, wholesale prices must be derisory, so the difference between ebauches and blanks can't be very serious anyway.


There is no difference in the terms as used between ebauches and blanks. After 2010 Eta will not supply non-Swatch companies with ebauches, which are partially finished movements. You will only be able to buy a complete movement if you are a non-Swatch company. (You can modify it to your heart's content after that... and many will.)



> If ETA movements are not going to be available to the likes of Breitling who are essentially dependent on them, and if this situation has been known to be pending for at least five years, I can't believe that alternative suppliers haven't been furiously churning away, developing new movements to take ETA's place.


Stella(?) and a few others have been doing just that. But producing reliable, accurate, quality movements in quantity at low cost is harder than it seems... I don't think the Chinese have been able to do it yet. And Stella charges more than Eta for essentially the same movement.


> I also can't believe that people like Breitling themselves haven't been developing the capability to make the their own movements, ETA movements under license, or close equivalents themselves.


A lot of the popular Eta mechanicals are out of patent and don't take licensing. The SuperQuartz would be a lot harder to build and I suspect will continue to be sourced from Eta.


> And finally, I don't think I can believe that ETA would deliberately deprive themselves of what must be an extremely lucrative source of income...... and for what purpose? If they put the companies who now are dependent on their movements out of business in order to snatch the business for themselves, will they necessarily get that business? What would be their motive?


The problem that Swatch (and thus Eta) was facing was others buying partial Eta movements (ebauches) finishing and encasing them in Asia, and then saying they were just the same as Swiss watches since they were Eta movements. I am sure this was never aimed at Breitling. Swatch did this to protect it's profit base in quality mechanicals. They didn't want to get only the slice of the pie which is wholesaling movements... they wanted the whole pie which is selling the entire watch. Continuing to supply ebauches was, in their view, having Peter compete against Paul when they owned both... and made more money off Paul's complete watches.

I am sure Breitling will continue to be able to buy thermolines... indeed, they may be the only vendor using them! They may have to buy even more to convince Eta to keep the line open :think:


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## artec (Oct 31, 2006)

Thank you EEEB...... I'm surprised and pleased that anyone was still paying attention!

I understand and agree with much of what you say, but Peter and Paul have got me baffled. If Peter and Paul are both owned by Swatch, they'll continue to be supplied with ebauches even if the degree to which they modify the bits and pieces varied, won't they?

And if Peter is owned by Swatch and Paul isn't, and Paul isn't allowed by buy ebauches, hasn't ETA lost all the sales formerly made to Paul? I'm assuming that the non-Swatch Paul is not really Paul-san.

Do Asian manufacturers advertise to the general public that a product has an ETA movement? I wouldn't have thought that the kind of buyer most Asian manufacturers who buy ETA movements are aiming at would ever find out that the movement was ETA, would know what ETA was or would even know that the movement was any different from the rest of the watch? 

I understand that developing high quality, easy-to-manufacture-cheaply movements from scratch isn't easy, but with a good movement as a starting point, most ambitious designers would be delighted to be offered the opportunity to update and improve, I'd have thought?

By the way, I only gave Breitling as an example of some-one who I knew relied on ETA. Of course, it's also true that I like their Superquartz, but I'm not in the market for any more....... all the new ones seem to get bigger while I wasn't looking!

Do you think Seiko and Citizen would be interested in filling ETA's voids and supplying ebauches to European manufacturers? Or would the lack of "Swiss Made" labels lose too many of the non-collector buyers? I know there are a lot of people who aren't interested in watches but just want something the consider "good" and who wouldn't buy anything except with a "Swiss Made" label, but there must also be a lot of people who just want a watch and never even look at the maker's name, let alone where it was born or whethrer the movement and case were from the same source.

It's an interesting field for endless speculation, isn't it?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

artec said:


> ...
> 
> By the way, I only gave Breitling as an example of some-one who I knew relied on ETA. Of course, it's also true that I like their Superquartz, but I'm not in the market for any more....... all the new ones seem to get bigger while I wasn't looking!
> 
> ...


I think all of this was aimed at Paul-san not Paul... Being able to say "Swiss" in connection with "watch" adds a great deal of panache to the general sales effort. This is one of the reasons the Swiss are trying so hard to protect their name in the market.

I agree on the size of modern watches... I have a very large wrist and a lot of these watches look like pie pans on my wrist... but we live in an age of bling and being ostentatious it seems.

I think everyone is expecting the Chinese to soon dominate the "I don' care what name is on it" market... in the meantime Mitoya seems to be providing lots of cheap quartz for Chinese encasements...


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## Militarywatchdude (Jan 2, 2008)

I think this whole deal with ETA is a good thing. It will force watch companies to become more creative and come up with some great in-house movements.


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## noah (Jan 18, 2007)

This is the biggest new to hit the watch world since they made a clock that can go on a boat... and that was big news...

Yes ETA movements will start to rise in price faster than Oil or gold... mark my words...


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## rap31264 (Apr 30, 2008)

In the June 2008 issue of Watch Time magazine is an article called "The Fall and Rise of the Valjoux 7750" and it does mention in a paragraph about the 2010 cutoff. But it said that (If I remember correctly) that it was to stop selling the "kits" to outside companies but still sell the entire movements to some companies. The 7750 has lost it's patent so many companies have copied it now and are using modified versions of it. The article is a great read.


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2008)

If you flick through the thread you´ll read exactly that


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## Kaeu (Jul 8, 2008)

the representitves of swatch swizerland visited Malta two weeks ago and I had asked them about this.

they said that eta will still provide non-swatch group brands with movements provided that they are good quality brands such as Tag Heuer, bulova.
(but tag were pretty POed when they're calibre S model was delayed from launch because Swatch wanted a percentage of they're company before they delivered the goods...unsure of what happened tag have not give them a share but the damage of the launch is done)

lower brands like Sector which have certain models in eta movements will have to settle for something like Miyota

Another alternative factory might open in swizerland so that watch companies can keep the ''swiss made'' logo.


Swatch have WAY too many side projects at the moment i think they're just trying to cut the crap and keep the good stuff going.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2008)

Interesting. Thank you.


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## Krnbk2 (May 13, 2008)

I know this topic has been beaten to death but I have one question. How does this affect the companies that base their entire being on taking ETA movements and refinishing them or providing complications, Like SOPROD for example?


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## atman (Dec 18, 2006)

Gentlemen, its been a long time since I visited this site, specifically due to work constraints and I'd like to say that I am greatful for the opportunity to do so. With that said, I have heard the same regarding the ETA movements being heavily restricted and apparently Selita Clones being used as replacement movements. I have several watches that contain original ETA's and I am not considering letting them go anytime soon. I have also heard that their value is possibly going to increase due to demand.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2008)

atman said:


> I have also heard that their value is possibly going to increase due to demand.


Nice fairy tale, ETA movements have been and will still be produced in large (not to say huge) scale. Production costs will increase but a "common" ETA movement will not go up in value.


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## noah (Jan 18, 2007)

*Hong Kong Office closed a few monthes ago....*

something big is happening..... :-s


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2008)

????


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## sltoulouse (Aug 15, 2008)

I might be talking through my hat here, but I think the biggest concern at hand is that some folks have been counting on selling their Swiss automatic/mechanical watch collection made up of late model, lower end watches for a big profit. Now the truth is dawning on them. It probablyu will not happen.

How many times have folks in the know warned watch collectors not to count on this? The mehanical/automatic Swiss watch industry has been in crisis never since the quartz revolution started 40 years ago. Purely Swiss Made watches are now both rare and expensive. Nearly all watches depreciate for the first 40 to 50 years of existance, some faster than others, even the expensive ones. This is a fact of life for us watch collectors.

Swiss automatic/mechanical makers have been looking for ways to lower production costs for decades now. Many of the Eta 2824 and 2836 parts are already sourced out to Asia and brought back into Switzerland for final finish and fit. The following numbers or letters on many of the late production Eta movements indicate Asian origins. Swiss Made means that only approximately 51% or more of the watch must be made of Swiss parts. The Movement must also be assembled and cased up in Switzerland. (That does not preclude the movement parts from being imported.) I really doubt there are more than a scant few Swiss Made watches with Swiss Made bracelets anymore. That probably goes for the case parts, crowns, bezels etc., as well. 

Sellita has been making a considerable number of Eta's three hand automatic movements under contract for years now. The Sellita 200 is not new anymore, and has already proven itself to be the full equal of the 2824 in accuracy and dependability. Breightling has been using them for over a year. Other Swiss companies are too now. What does this say to you?

There is no such thing as a reasonably priced purely Swiss Made automatic movement anymore. If you want one, you will have to buy a watch made by the handful of Swiss makers still manufacturing their own movements in house, and you will pay big bucks. Even the majority of these watches will depreciate like all watches tend to do for the first 30 years or so.


It is a global market in our world now. Get used to it and quit worrying about something you can't do a damned thing about. It the watch is accurate, and dependable, that is all that really matters. I would not be looking to make a big profit off your collection any time soon if the watches are less than 30 years old and were a lower end pieces to begin with. That is the reality we all face. just collect them and enjoy them for what they are. Let your kids worry about making a buck off them.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

sltoulouse said:


> ...The mechanical/automatic Swiss watch industry has been in crisis never since the quartz revolution started 40 years ago. ...


*I should have such a 'crisis'!!* :-d

This into my mailbox from The Swatch Group dated for release on 15-Aug-08:


 Biel/Bienne, 15 August 2008



_Strong sales growth of +17.7% at constant exchange rates (+11% at current 30 June 2008 exchange rates) in the Watches and Jewelry segment despite ongoing capacity bottlenecks and unfavorable exchange rates
_
_Sales growth of +13.8% at constant exchange rates for the entire Group (+8.5% at current 30 June 2008 exchange rates)
_
_16% increase in operating profit to CHF 593 million and to an operating margin of 21% (first half-year 2007: 19.6%), despite negative currency effects and sharp rise in the price of raw materials and precious metals
_
_Slight decline of 9.1% in consolidated net income to CHF 418 million (prior year: CHF 460 million) *as a result of unrealized temporary value adjustments on portfolios and foreign investments (emphasis added) *due to exceptionally weak stock markets and exchange rates at the end of June 2008. Return on sales of 14.8%_
*Group overview*
Group growth continued unabated in the first half of 2008. In local currency terms, Group sales rose by an impressive +13.8%, however, the negative exchange effect of -5.3% was significant. The strong Swiss franc and, in particular, the fall in the value of the US dollar and many of the currencies linked to the US dollar, negatively impacted Group sales in Swiss francs.

The Group's strong half-year performance is mainly attributable to the Watches & Jewelry and Production segments. With its internationally known brands in all price categories, the Swatch Group benefits from the strong demand for its watches and jewelry. Market shares, particularly in the watch segment, were also further expanded in the period under review. All regions contributed to the good result. Asia and America achieved clear double-digit growth in local currencies, while sales in this segment in Europe grew at a rate only slightly above the double-digit mark. The sharp rise in sales in the Production segment underlines the sustained demand for watch movements and components.

Additional proprietary retail stores were opened in prime locations. Given the current environment, the Group is consciously exploiting opportunities to consolidate brand presence over the long term.


There is more but you get the idea. Things have never been better for the Swiss... they are crying all the way to the bank. Their main problem was they didn't make as much money this year on their huge hoard of cash and investments as they did last year!

I should have such a 'crisis'!


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## sltoulouse (Aug 15, 2008)

By crisis, I did not mean a financial one. The reality is Switzerland has been already been eclipsed globally in the industry. Actually, the fact that the Swiss are importing so much from Asia is what is saving them from extinction in the industry. The Swiss have been in a losing battle with the Asian watch industry for decades. An aging work force and lack of recruitment has been the biggest factor. They have survived only by getting involved in the Asian industry both technologically and financially. The Swiss hade been exporting watch making machinery and tooling to Asia for decades. Now they import Asian made machinery and tooling. It is the same with labor. the Swiss have been scouring the globe for skilled watch makers to replace their own losses.

Recently in America, there has been a resurgance in the popularity of mechanical/automatic watches in the last decade, especially in the last 5 years. However, even with this increased demand, the market share of all mechanical watches is just over 1% of total global production. Throw in the flood of Asian automatic and mechanical movements and the picture would get grimmer for the Swiss if they had not already taken steps to capitalize on the continuously growing strength of the Asian watch making industry.

We American watch collectors tend to think Swiss Made means just that. That view is pure fantasy. I think Swatch may be attempting to have the industry reevalute its present guidelines of what constitutes a Swiss Made watch for two rrasons The first is to preserve a very small niche for purely Swiss made mechanical/automatic watches. However, rest assured, it will be a very small niche indeed. If this comes to pass, there will not be any more affordable Swiss Made mehanical/automatic watches. Also, those Swiss Made watches under the present guidelines will have their prestige and values diminished within a small group of higher end Swiss watch collectors. The move will help to legitamize the reality of the present day Swiss/Asian watch in the general market. If they succeed, their investments in the Asian Industry will pay off even more. It is a win,win solution.

the Swiss have been among the smartest businessmen in Europe for centuries.They have a long history of mercenary and merchantile success. The Swatch folks are doing exactly what any shrewd business folks would do. They are turning their adversaries' strengths to their own advantage. If you can't lick them, join them. It will ensure the Swiss watch industry's survival for a long time.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Too much for a detailed comment. Just one point on Swatch. Swatch in Swatch Watch is not copying anyone. Swatch is pioneering new technologies in watch materials and watch production. Swatch Watch is profitable and can be made almost anywhere, even Switzerland where most of it is actually made!

Not high end, true. But it is where the market is... there is a reason it is called The Swatch Group and not the Omega/etc. Group.


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## sltoulouse (Aug 15, 2008)

I did not say that the Swiss are not innovative in their own right. Far be it from me. Niether is this a matter of copying but adapting. This is something the swiss have had to do to stay competative.

There is no denying the Swiss have sold very considerable amounts of tooling and machinery to the Asian industry over the last few decades. They've helped train Asian workers in the art. They are now cashing in on their investment. That is smart business. They have imported the cream of that labor force to Switzerland. That is smart business as well

Even the Swiss are haver adopted technology and materials developed by their competitors if it is to their advantage to do so. Not doing so is foolish. The Swiss are no fools. Consider that the Swiss watch industry grew out of the French 18th century automaton industry. The Swiss adopted many American watch making innovations that came out of the developement of the railroad watches of the late 19th century. English and Italian innovations have been incorporated into Swiss watchmaking. So too with the Japanese developements. to say that the Swiss watch industry is now and always has been 100% pure Swiss is pure fantasy.

No individual is a born watch maker. It is a learned skill and science all its own. Neither is only one country responsible for the developement and advancement of an entire industry. Industries develop and evolve by adopting and improving good ideas and techniques as well as developing their own. Adapt or die out is very much a part of it all. That the Swiss watch making industrty is alive and healthy is proof enough that they have adapted very well. So it is not a simple matter of copying.


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## hank68 (Aug 7, 2008)

Making Sense Of The Sellita SW200 Movement: Same As ETA 2824-2

http://ablogtoread.com/2007/12/31/making-sense-of-the-sellita-sw200-movement-same-as-eta-2824-2/


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

sltoulouse said:


> There is no denying the Swiss have sold very considerable amounts of tooling and machinery to the Asian industry over the last few decades. They've helped train Asian workers in the art.


Actually I'd be interested to see some hard facts on that particular point. :think:

Yes, we've all seen advertisements for Chinese watches made 'on Swiss equipment' or by 'Swiss trained craftsmen', but is this really true? (I'm assuming by "Asian", you mean Chinese)

Here are a few facts to consider: The several Chinese manufacturers producing mechanical movements are all enterprises set up in the old command-economy days. The youngest of them (Hangzhou Watch Company) is 35 years old. The earliest of these companies were set up in the late 1950s with Swiss equipment, adapting Swiss designs to suit local conditions; but they have been designing their own movements, making their own tools, and training their own workforces for a couple of generations now. They no longer need the Swiss in order to make a quality product.

Consider the Sea-Gull ST16, a Chinese synthesis of the best features of both Seiko and Miyota. Claro-Semag import ST16 ebauches into Switerland and finish them with the requisite local content to qualify as the 'Swiss Made' calibre CL888. The brilliant thing about this is that the CL888 is a dimensionally exact drop-in replacement for the Miyota 8215, and as a Swiss Movement' it is a competitor for ETA and Sellita. A nice earner for both Claro-Semag and Sea-Gull.

Adding up Claro-Semag, Sellita and a couple of new players that have been reported in the press, ETA's market share of affordable Swiss mechanical watches is going to shrink very rapidly from 2010. Do they care? I think not. Quartz is their bread-and-butter now. Mechanicals (and particularly the high-end ones) only serve to bolster the heritage value of the 'Swiss Made' tag. And that's really all they need.


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## FrancoThai (Apr 25, 2007)

Definitely the most interesting thread in WUS.

One year after joining WUS I cumulate all the possible ETA movement watches at the most affordable price and then jump to a Blancpain FF Flyback ( their own movement ).

It means that at the end if you are knowledgeable about watches ( I do not mean expert ) you should exactly know what you are buying and why you are buying it, the rest is too much mind-bloggling.

Also I can see the trend moving more and more on the high end market with prices that you can never imagine before. Just take the late reproduction of the Marie-Antoinette watch from Breguet.

The rich getter richer and the poor...sorry for them :-(

My 2 cents.

FrancoThai


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## Uncle Bill (Mar 25, 2008)

Interesting thread, I wonder though how many Blancpains, Breguets and top end Omegas will Swatchgroup will be selling during the current economic unpleasentness. Nice watches are essentially a descretionary purchase and even the super rich are cutting back.


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## lone-panther (Jan 1, 2009)

Ricky said:


> "But they would never belong to my way of life, to my culture, to my tradition, so they would never able to satisfy myself."
> 
> Rouge
> 
> ...


are we discussing watches or leather jack-boots?


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## alll87 (Dec 29, 2008)

omg is this real ??? i gonna check it now!!!!


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

alll87 said:


> omg is this real ??? i gonna check it now!!!!


actually reading the thread will assuage your worries.


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## noah (Jan 18, 2007)

*What is a (movement blanks) ??*

Please help, movement over _(movement blanks)_
_how are they different and basicaly what are they ?_


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: What is a (movement blanks) ??*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebauche


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## elliebelly (Dec 12, 2008)

I WAS SURPRISEDHOW MANY HIGH CLASS WATCHES ARE OWNED BY THE SWATCH ORGANISATION
elliebelly


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## Gansan (Aug 21, 2008)

Actually what does ETA stand for?


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## Sea Lion (May 9, 2008)

:2band1:


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## vmaxkevin (Mar 5, 2009)

lysanderxiii said:


> I'll bet there is rejoicing in China on the day Swatch stops exporting movements to Singapore and Hong Kong. There are many little watch casing companies that cannot afford to buy ETA if the price goes up and will turn to the Chinese watch industry.
> 
> Swatch may have shot themselves in the knee, as this decision will only strengthen the Chinese movement industry.


I totally agree. I think this will also put pressure on the R&D of these movements and increase the quality. It will be interesting to see how companies like Breitling and TAG handle the questions about movements from consumers.


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## Guz (May 16, 2008)

Yes I'd like to know why Swatch group would cut their own throats in such hard times.

I think they'll have a change of heart.

As per the Asian Movements, I think they certainly have the knowledge to make a great movement.


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## nytrokiss (Jun 28, 2007)

After coming back from BaselWorld 2009, You see all the new watch companies moving to their own in-house movements. The tide has started turning.....


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## foxint (Dec 26, 2008)

Sir,

ETA has evolved from ETERNA - ETernA

Eterna bought A Schilds AS-movements in the 19th century. Eterna were responsible for many great movements and they split their company into, the watch section ETERNA and the movement section ETA.

For instance the basis of the ETA2892 is the Eterna 1500K or one of its derivatives from the 1960's (I think). Eterna were the first to use the ball bearings on the rotor hence the logo the 5 balls.

When going got tough they sold the movement arm ETA to Swatch. I bet they are now kicking themselves.

Dan
Orange


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## Guest (Apr 13, 2009)

Wikipedia is your friend:

The basis of the Eterna Watch Company was founded in 1851. By the 1900’s wristwatches were just starting to become fashionable. Schild Fréres, as the company was then known, started to produce Lady’s wristwatches from adapted small pocket watches. In 1905 the company changed their name to Eterna. The company continued to be at the leading edge of watch developments and in 1908 they patented the first alarm wristwatch. The watch went into production in 1914 and was launched at the Swiss National Exhibition at Berne in that year.

By 1932 Eterna had set up a subsidiary company, ETA, to make movements for itself and other Swiss watch companies. This same year Theodore retired and handed over the control of the company to his nephew Rudolf Schild. Although retired, Theodore remained on the board of directors until his death in 1950. Eterna produced many innovations in their history, the smallest production wristwatch with a Baguette movement in 1930, an 8 day alarm watch in the 1930’s and their first automatic watch in 1938. Probably the most famous Eterna watch was their Eterna-matic. This watch was launched in 1948. The design of the automatic winding was one of Eterna’s greatest designs. The weight ran on small ball bearings making it very efficient, hence the trademark of 5 ball bearings. The Eterna-matic continued in various styles and was still available in 1998, and has indeed been relaunched.


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## j_hennry (Sep 9, 2007)

The Swatch conglomerate doesn't need another Swatch like conglomerate when its trying to compete with Asia by preserving its brands as luxury, i.e. exclusive. Breitling, TAG and others help support that luxury aura, promoting the Swiss ideal, the swiss tradition. But the proliferation of swiss brands is a threat both to Swatch and to the Swiss marketing model. Swatch will use ETA supply to slow down or end other swiss conglomerates, Grovana. 
The short run gain from supplying ETA movements to multiple manufacturers compramizes Swatch's long run competitive position. 

Modivation behind any business strategy= maximize profit and possition for long run success.
That the Swiss authorities were sucessfull at slowing the reorganization set in motion by the ETA intention. But they probably like the idea of pruning the industry to preserve its long run stature-though not to the extent that Swatch would like. 
So it seems its now a race, the clock is ticking till 2010, Selita and others need to step up. Maybe get absorbed by Grovana to secure R&D resources. 

Just a thought.


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## verse214 (May 31, 2009)

So not to beat a dead horse:

Can we assume that higher end watch makers (Breitling, IWC) that take the ETA movement parts and self-assemble will start charging more for their watches in 2010 since they will either have to unassemble the ETA themselves for the mods or totally create their own movements?


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## AJPeters (Mar 16, 2006)

The financial and ecomomic crisis has not missed the watch industry, so you can be quite sure that the supply of eta stuff is all but ending very soon.
Though the official 'answer' to the crisis by Mr. Hayek (swatch group,eta ceo) on the baselworld fair has been: raise prices on longines, raises prices on tissot
IWC and Breitling have special agreements with the eta i'd guess, so i don't expect some competition by them, biz as usual for them. The most affected are the companies who used fully assembled eta movements, they will have some tough time to come up with either own solutions (less are able to) or some alternatives (ie selitta, ~claro) as there's a high demand for and the first supply shortages appeared in 2007-2008 already.


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## verse214 (May 31, 2009)

AJPeters said:


> The financial and ecomomic crisis has not missed the watch industry, so you can be quite sure that the supply of eta stuff is all but ending very soon.
> Though the official 'answer' to the crisis by Mr. Hayek (swatch group,eta ceo) on the baselworld fair has been: raise prices on longines, raises prices on tissot
> IWC and Breitling have special agreements with the eta i'd guess, so i don't expect some competition by them, biz as usual for them. The most affected are the companies who used fully assembled eta movements, they will have some tough time to come up with either own solutions (less are able to) or some alternatives (ie selitta, ~claro) as there's a high demand for and the first supply shortages appeared in 2007-2008 already.


I thought that Swatch was continuing to provide fully assembled ETA's - if that is case then wouldn't the companies that use the fully assembled ones be unaffected?


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

verse214 said:


> I thought that Swatch was continuing to provide fully assembled ETA's - if that is case then wouldn't the companies that use the fully assembled ones be unaffected?


I believe that is correct.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

Correct. But those who ordered only ebauches like Breitling and mounted springs, balance wheels and other parts (supposed to be of higher/better quality) from other specialized suppliers they will become difficulties. They have to buy complete movements, de-mount and re-mount them. But whjat to do woth the parts they do not need ? Selling back to ETA ? No. To whom ? 
THat´s why a lot of company started to go their own way. The new Breitling movement is a consequence. Other brands will follow.


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## whatadeals (Jul 19, 2008)

did check the swatch website, and i didn't find anything saying this model descountinue.


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## AJPeters (Mar 16, 2006)

verse214 said:


> I thought that Swatch was continuing to provide fully assembled ETA's - if that is case then wouldn't the companies that use the fully assembled ones be unaffected?


Yes, they wouldn't be affected then, i'm not sure if ETA really officially announced a change of their standing yet, but it could be. The official policy has been so about:
out in 2010, each year supply down by 10% (and price up by 10% as well more or less)
Currently the supply of ETA movements is fairly good, most likely due to lower sales in the industry.


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## 6138 (Sep 26, 2008)

This is like the effect 2000, many mas noise that reality ...
the brands of swatch: omega, I measure certina tissot hamilton longines .. everything like before 
Some, as oris or anonymous, already they mount sellita without incident, and others, glycine or unconquered .. and the majority of similars do not modify anything, only they put his logotipe in the rotor, the machine will cost 20 more Euros/ dollars to them that till now 


The topic will finish actually in the half of the half of the predictions .....

Not new at all under the Sun


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Sep 2009 Swatch Group Press Release*

This just off the Swatch Group's financial PR mailing list:

_*Swatch Group: Investigation against ETA*

_

_Biel/Bienne, September 15, 2009 - The Swiss Competition Commission COMCO informed today on their website that an investigation against ETA Manufacture Horlogère SA has been opened._

_It is not the first time that the COMCO investigates against a company of the Swatch Group. The Swatch Group is confident that the results of this investigation will again be positive for ETA._

_However, the timing for such an investigation seems unfortunate. Since approximately once year, the majority of the external ETA clients have massively cancelled or postponed their orders, without any consideration for the ETA personnel, its infrastructure nor the investments which have been considerable also at ETA due to the continuous pressure of the COMCO as a consequence of the complaints from third parties._

_(Ad hoc translation from the German original)_

Mostly I find this interesting for the insight it gives to the ETA order backlog.

Secondarily I find it interesting that an Ad hoc translation made it to the mailing list. Usually releases to financial lists reflect a high level of polish which is missing here.


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## BathysHawaii (Feb 18, 2006)

Aloha,

I wanted to add some facts to this thread, as I see a LOT of misinformation. I have been involved with buying hundreds of both ETA and Sellita movements for the past 4 years, so I know a thing or two bout all this...

Basically Swatch Group decided to stop selling EBAUCHE to outside firms (this has been stated correctly several times in the thread). They did this to prevent Chinese firms from buying ETA ebauche, and then building them into fake Omegas, Blancpain, etc.

Swatch/ETA never said they would stop selling assembled movements to outside users, as this is a large part of their business. It was VERY hard to get ETA movements in 2006 and 2007, because of rapid growth in the automatic watch market, so there were 2+ year delivery times being quoted by ETA. This spurred smaller Swiss movement markers like Sellita to ramp up production of their ETA-like movements like the SW200. Now, even Sellita's delivery times are 2 years out.

So here we are in 2009. Can we get ETA movements, yes we can, and in fact we just ordered 300 ETA 2892 movements to build into Benthics and Aquacultures. We also are doing a run of 100F automatics, some which have ETA others which have Sellita. We are equally pleased with both movements (_and here's one to blow your mind: Sellita makes genuine 2824 movements as well..labeled "ETA", because they assemble for ETA as well as making the SW 200 movements.._). In general, we find Sellita SW 200 movements to be more accurate than ETA 2824-2. It's certainly not like ETA are far better than Sellita, though they are much better-known.

As for Claro movements, well we looked at them, and they look _*much*_ less well-finished than either ETA or Sellita, and have a slow-beat 18J movement. However, in their favor, the watch ran to COSC-like standards. Doubt we'd ever use a Claro though.

Soprod makes beautiful movements, but they are very pricey.

Hope this helps shed some light on all this.


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## frozenbamboo (Sep 27, 2009)

thanks for the post bathy. very informative:-!


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

BathysHawaii said:


> Basically Swatch Group decided to stop selling EBAUCHE to outside firms (this has been stated correctly several times in the thread). *They did this to prevent Chinese firms from buying ETA ebauche, and then building them into fake Omegas, Blancpain, etc*.


Do you have any documentation on this being ETA's stated reason?

I've read reasons given as being to prevent poor-quality finishing tarnishing ETA's reputation (like many small automotive firms stopping kit sales back in the 1970s). And this thread frequently brings up the question of a misguided attempt to control the low/mid end of the 'Swiss movement' market. But this is the first time I've read anything indicating that ETA was pointing the finger at China.

Given that 4 of China's biggest mechanical movement manufacturers are offering movements with designs based on those used by ETA, and also the fact that fakers will use whatever they can fit in a case most cheaply, including movements that look nothing like ETA movements, did ETA really believe that witholding ebauches would stem the tide of counterfeiting? And is it not more likely that the only fakers using poorly-finished ETA movements would be located in Europe?


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## JohnG2 (Feb 11, 2009)

Chascomm said:


> Do you have any documentation on this being ETA's stated reason?
> 
> I've read reasons given as being to prevent poor-quality finishing tarnishing ETA's reputation (like many small automotive firms stopping kit sales back in the 1970s).


Neither, they are now owned by Swatch Group and Swatch doesn't feel like feeding the competition. They are doing this to harm competitors, pure and simple, it is no more complicated than that.


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## pwong017 (May 7, 2009)

so....how long is this thing going to drag on for?


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## inloncom (Dec 3, 2009)

New for 2010 in the North American market, Bulova has released its latest lines of *Bulova* and *Accutron *timepieces. What one *WTForum* member first brought to my attention is that similar to what* Bulova* has been doing in its European market for several years, the latest line of *Accutron* watches carries the *Bulova Accutron* designation under the iconic tuning fork logo, rather than simply, _*Accutron.*_

*Bulova Accutron* has upped the ante for 2010, now offering no less than (9) nine sub-collections:

*Amerigo* 
which features the ETA 2824-2 25-jewel, self-winding mechanical movement, exhibition screw caseback, and a classic-looking onion-shaped crown.

*Corvara*

which is a _very sporty_ 26-jewel self-winding mechanical, _also_ featuring an exhibition caseback and sapphire crystal!

*Curaçao*

Yet *another* 26-jewel offering from *Bulova Accutron!!* This one is a 300 meter water-resistant diver, powered by a _*Sellita SW200*_ movement, anti-reflective sapphire crystal, exhibition screw-back case, rotating bezel ring, and screw-down crown.









*Eagle Pilot*

This is a GMT movement for dual time-zone readings, offered in seven different styles. The casebacks are etched with signature endorsements of former astronaut, _*Buzz Aldrin*[/I], legendary pilot of the Eagle lunar module on *Apollo 11*, the first Moon landing.

The *Eagle Pilot Collection* features both mechanical and quartz movements. *Nice!!*









*Exeter* 
This is a very attractive collection of dress watches featuring layered dials, a retrograde day of the week indicator, big date window, and a mix of Roman and Arabic numerals. *Classy!*









*Gemini* 
*Gemini* is *back!* and obviously *Bulova Accutron* has decided to go all-out with this collection!!







*Thirteen (13) different styles!!* Check out model *64C100*







Featuring mechanical self-winding *and* hand-wound movements, Roman and Arabic numerals, exhibition screw-back cases, and anti-reflective sapphire crystals, these speak for themselves!!

*Kirkwood* 
This is a new collection, also featuring a wide range of ten (10) style choices ranging from skeletonized (reminescent of last year's Gemini skeleton to the stunningly-beautiful rose-gold accented, on-dial aperture portal 26-jewel model *64A100*!







This is another one featuring the *Sellita SW200 movement*

From what I can ascertain, Sellita is a Swiss-movement that is expected to fill the void left when Swatch, in 2010, will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies. It will continue to provide movements for it's house brands, of which there are several. ETA is part of the Swatch Group which makes a number of brands. When ETA stops providing movements to out-side brands, they will have to go elsewhere for movements, and the Sellita, which is based on the same technology as the ETA 2824, will take up a large amount of the void.

*Masella*

This a very attractive collection for the ladies featuring eleven (11) different styles, many with individually hand-set diamonds on bezels and dial faces. *Very chic!!*









*Mirador* 
Yet another new collection for *Bulova Accutron* as they turn up the heat on the competition combining ceramics with stainless steel in five (5) styles. The *Mirador Collection* offers both self-winding mechanicals or quartz movements, and cabachon crowns. I particularly like model no. *65B113* which combines rose-gold plating and black ceramic. This model is driven by a 25-jewel ETA 2824-2 movement.

 Since ETA's will become extinct in non-Swatch watches beginning in 2010, I'm seriously considering purchasing at least one or two of these in the *Bulova Accutron* line-up while the gettin's good!

*Saleya*

Another beautiful Collection for the ladies.







Each model of the *Saleya Collection* is set with 24 diamond tonneau shaped cases, black onyx cabachon crown and case accents, and feature quartz movements. *Elegance personified!!*









*Stratford* 
Last...but certainly not least!







The *Stratford Collection* is *Bulova Accutron's* collection of Oxford's and Chronographs

There are so many variations here, you just have to see them all for yourself!!







The one that meets my eye is the *64C000*







This one features an ETA 7750 Valjoux 25-jewel self-winding chronograph movement in the tonneau shape; rose-gold finish and accents; patterned black dial; and padded and stitched brown leather strap.

As you might have gathered by now...I'm *really* impressed with what *Bulova* has done with the *Bulova Accutron Collection* for 2010!!

*Be on the look-out for January 2010!!*

At least one or two of these babies will be coming home...to papa!!
__________________










"A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins.

Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God."

-Benjamin Franklin​

"...a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles...is absolutely necessary to preserve the blessings of liberty and keep a government free."

-Benjamin Franklin​_


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## kiwidj (Sep 24, 2007)

Sounds good and thanks for the info on the new offerings from Bulova. Pics would be good to see if you have any. Cheers and welcome to the forum. :-!


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

I doubt that Bulova do any movement finishing so they would be buying completely built-up movements anyway and thus unaffected by Swatch Group's decision to restrict ebauches.


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## koimaster (Jul 13, 2007)

Others have picked up the slack and more will follow. Excellent article here
http://watchlords.forumotion.net/al...spensable-movement-manufacturers-t160.htm#343

and a good source of information on things horology here although they may not be a forum sponsor I find the information presented to be of great use in my passion of all things Horology.

http://journal.hautehorlogerie.org/en/


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Now that we've been through all the grief/anger/outrage/indignation/resignation etc, etc, etc,... and had a good laugh, and accurately discerned what the announcement actually meant, and speculated on the consequences...

I guess the next thing is to start to compile a list of all the available drop-in replacements for common ETA mechanical movements ;-)

*2824-2* Sellita SW200, Valanron 24 (Switzerland), Sea-Gull ST21, Hangzhou 6000 (China)

*2836* Valanvron 36 (Switzerland)

*2892* Sellita SW300, Valanvron 92, Soprod A-10 (Switzerland), Sea-Gull ST18 (China)

*7750* Sellita SW500 (Switzerland), Maktime 30664 (Russia), Shanghai 3L, Liaoning 4041 (China)

*6497/6497* Sea-Gull ST36, Hangzhou 9000 (China)

That's all I can think of right now. What have I missed?

(...and let's not forget other Swiss newcomers to the mechanical movement scene providing more alternatives for the 'Swiss Made' crowd, such as Claro-Semag's CL 888, which happens to be a dimensional substitute for Miyota's popular 8215)


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## CLEANS-HIGH (Feb 26, 2009)

I think you will see mote watches with Ronda, Claro, Sellita, ISA movements in the, I did not know that Accutron used automatic Sellita movements but I and wearing on right now as I type this and the movement keeps very good time


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## JohnG2 (Feb 11, 2009)

Chascomm said:


> Now that we've been through all the grief/anger/outrage/indignation/resignation etc, etc, etc,... and had a good laugh, and accurately discerned what the announcement actually meant, and speculated on the consequences...
> 
> I guess the next thing is to start to compile a list of all the available drop-in replacements for common ETA mechanical movements ;-)
> 
> ...


Your post seems to imply that you will not be able to buy ETA movements anymore - but that is not true.

Are people really still confused about what "ébauche" means? This ONLY affects manufacturers. It DOES NOT affect people who want to buy a standard 2836-2 (for example). In 2011 you will still be able to buy movements from Otto Frei or Cousins UK... And in 2012, and 2013, and so on...


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

JohnG2 said:


> Your post seems to imply that you will not be able to buy ETA movements anymore - but that is not true.
> 
> Are people really still confused about what "ébauche" means? This ONLY affects manufacturers.


That was not the intention of my post. Read my other posts on the matter and you will see I know the difference between an ebauche and a fully-built-up movement.

My point is that the manufacturers that I listed (with the exception of Valanvron) have built the entire movement, and therefore are capable of supplying ebauches. Furthermore, Valanvron are sourcing their ebauches from Sea-Gull, thereby proving my point.

Of more immediate relevance to the Swatch group is the fact that all these manufacturers are right now eating into ETA's market share of fully built-up movements.



> It DOES NOT affect people who want to buy a standard 2836-2 (for example). In 2011 you will still be able to buy movements from Otto Frei or Cousins UK...


But how many will want to buy a specifically ETA movement in future? And how many will be happy to buy a functional/dimensional analogue of an ETA movement?


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## Bromo33333 (Jun 15, 2009)

Chascomm said:


> Of more immediate relevance to the Swatch group is the fact that all these manufacturers are right now eating into ETA's market share of fully built-up movements.
> 
> But how many will want to buy a specifically ETA movement in future? And how many will be happy to buy a functional/dimensional analogue of an ETA movement?


Right now there is such a backlog, that anyone able to provide analogs to the workhorse ETA movements, is making sales and having their books filled up - in this environment, unless ETA is willing and able to produce more, they will lose market share whether they sell Ebauches or not.

ETA isn't going anywhere, they are just going to stop enabling their direct competitors. And up the value chain, it will force competitors who have been relying upon ETA ebauches and then customizing the movements with their own complications, to develop their own movements, or find others. ETA costs are so darn low compared to others, this will increase the prices of their watches as well, giving the Swatch Group additional advantages.


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## toddb (Oct 26, 2007)

roberev said:


> i just received the steinhart e-newsletter today and read that swatch has announced that it will stop selling its eta movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-swatch companies (such as doxa) that rely on eta movements?


 how about chronoswiss, ulysses nardin, and breitling ?


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## chris russell (Feb 13, 2006)

*My understanding was that they plan to stop selling kits of their movements to outside*

companies. Complete movements will still be available. One has to wonder, what would happen to dozens of watchcos like Tag Heuer, Bvlgari, even Tudor if they stopped selling movements altogether. :-(


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## AbsoluteMustard (Jun 22, 2009)

*Re: My understanding was that they plan to stop selling kits of their movements to outside*



chris russell said:


> companies. Complete movements will still be available. One has to wonder, what would happen to dozens of watchcos like Tag Heuer, Bvlgari, even Tudor if they stopped selling movements altogether. :-(


They will use other companies. TAG is already using Stellita in a few of their models.


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## pyjujiop (Dec 7, 2009)

*Re: My understanding was that they plan to stop selling kits of their movements to outside*



AbsoluteMustard said:


> They will use other companies. TAG is already using Stellita in a few of their models.


And don't forget the Tag 1887, which as we learned, could more accurately be called the Seiko 6s37B:


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: My understanding was that they plan to stop selling kits of their movements to outside*

so tag heuer uses a japanese based ebauche now in their movements???
sellita is more or less a competitor of eta http://www.sellita.ch/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7&Itemid=12&lang=en&limitstart=1


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: It could become very interesting!*



Francois Boucher said:


> ;-) I am really just trying to tease the gorilla...
> 
> The idea is not absurd to me: japanese calibers have gained enormously in quality over the years. Many Seiko calibers are at least as good, and often better, than the common Swiss ones. They are sometimes even very finely finished. Think of the Credor line, or the Grand Seiko. I have a fine SAGP001 automatic chronograph that has nothing to envy from a V7750 or Nouvelle Lemania 5100. (See pics below) (...I just hope georges zaslavsky does not find my address to come over & eviscerate me...)
> 
> ...


haha thanks for thinking of me. :-d Well Seiko has a nice range of high end watches, problem is that the high end range of seiko watches is sold exclusively in only one seiko boutique in the whole french territory and this doesn't help for the brand recognition because most of the watch retailers are selling the entry level stuff.Seiko has some merits but few watchmakers are willing to repair or service seikos because the spare parts are scarce and some of their movements are more than a pain to repair .


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## mr00jimbo (Apr 26, 2009)

Seiko-based movements would be good, but would obliterate the term "Swiss Made" on the dial, right?

I wonder if Breitling has enough pull to devlop their own movements and sell them to other Swiss manufacturers? As I understand they have developed their own chronograph movement. 

But if everybody starts to shy away from ETA-based movements, what does this mean for the future of watch servicing down the road? Instead of maintaining a familiar 2824 or 2892, there will be a lot of new calibers with new designs floating around.

This kind of reminds me of Cuba, making due with all the pre-embargo 1950s vehicles, holding onto them for dear life.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

mr00jimbo said:


> Seiko-based movements would be good, but would obliterate the term "Swiss Made" on the dial, right?


That depends. Pretty much any ebauche can be finished in such a way as to be certified a 'Swiss Movement' by the FHS. So it would be possible for the Swiss movement finishing companies to switch to Seiko, but what would be the point? By the time you've factored in the necesary Swiss content, you might as well buy in the Chinese Hangzhou 2000 series (virtually the same as the 7s26).

In fact, both Claro-Semag and Valanvron use Chinese Sea-Gull ebauches to make their Swiss movements.



> I wonder if Breitling has enough pull to devlop their own movements and sell them to other Swiss manufacturers? As I understand they have developed their own chronograph movement.


But would a complete Breitling movement be able to compete against a complete ETA 7750? Even an ebauche from Breitling would be struggling to compete price-wise against a fully finished 7750.



> But if everybody starts to shy away from ETA-based movements, what does this mean for the future of watch servicing down the road? Instead of maintaining a familiar 2824 or 2892, there will be a lot of new calibers with new designs floating around.


New calibres, but not necessarily new designs. Take the alternatives to the ETA 2892. Sellita's offering is pretty much identical. So is Valanvron's, even though the bulk of the parts come from China. Only Soprod's A10 is a different design.

Similarly there are clones available of the ETA 2824, 2836, 6497,6498, 7750 and probably others.


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## SwissWatchStore (Jul 16, 2008)

Nice movement photography guys, stunning!:-!


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## Marine Corporal (Feb 8, 2010)

Chascomm said:


> . . .
> But would a complete Breitling movement be able to compete against a complete ETA 7750? Even an ebauche from Breitling would be struggling to compete price-wise against a fully finished 7750.
> 
> . . .


I've read elsewhere that Breitling doesn't yet have the manufacturing capability to satisfy its own needs for in-house movements, much less to supply others.

Who knows? Makes sense to me, but I'm just a guy posting on the internet in a coffee shop in America. Not a Swiss manufacturing consultant.

Peace

Mike


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## Outta Time (Feb 9, 2010)

I've been trying to get some definitive dope on this situation, and all I have come up with is that it will stop at the end of this year, 2010. Whether it will mean no more complete movements outside of Swatch period, or whether it means raw ebauches restriction, I can't get a straight answer. I don't know what would happen to schools like ours if they could no longer get access to ETA movts and parts, maybe the students would be expected to enroll with a box full of movts in their hands, as a prerequisite. I will update if I find anything new.


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## longinus certus (Sep 1, 2010)

but what about the fact that now President Hayek is no longer among us? does that not change some of the swatch group's policies?
and what about the sellita, are the clone movements the same built in quality as the eta originals?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

longinus certus said:


> and what about the sellita, are the clone movements the same built in quality as the eta originals?


Pls. feel yourself invited to flick through Watchuseek. This issue has been discussed here ad extenso. Just use our search function to read more on the Sellita 200 and oder Selitta productsa and their quality.


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## Chev James (Apr 13, 2009)

There was an interview in Watch Time magazine with Nicholas Hayek, CEO of the Swatch Group, right before his death. Here's the rub: OTHER watch companies have been asking Swatch to discontinue selling ETA movements to companies that do NOTHING but put an ETA movement into a case that they have designed. Long term customers have nothing to fear. What the other watch companies and Swatch want to do is cut down on the number of watch companies that are not true manufacturers. You can imagine how a proliferation of "fashion watches" with ETA movements can affect sales of other companies' watches. It was the position of Hayek and other companies, like Patek Philippe, that these other companies should really "get into" watchmaking or get out! If you think that is "anti-competitive," think about this: would Ford or General Motors sell engines and transmissions to another company that wanted to make cars rivaling Ford's or GM's own brands? Yes, I know that such things have been done on a limited basis in the past, but most companies just think it's not good business to support their competitors! Again, however, Swatch's long-term customers are assured that they'll continue to get ETA movements. But Johnny-come-latelys that make no watch parts of their own . . . they will have to find another source of movements!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Chev James said:


> There was an interview in Watch Time magazine with Nicholas Hayek, CEO of the Swatch Group, right before his death. Here's the rub: OTHER watch companies have been asking Swatch to discontinue selling ETA movements to companies that do NOTHING but put an ETA movement into a case that they have designed. Long term customers have nothing to fear. What the other watch companies and Swatch want to do is cut down on the number of watch companies that are not true manufacturers. You can imagine how a proliferation of "fashion watches" with ETA movements can affect sales of other companies' watches. It was the position of Hayek and other companies, like Patek Philippe, that these other companies should really "get into" watchmaking or get out! If you think that is "anti-competitive," think about this: would Ford or General Motors sell engines and transmissions to another company that wanted to make cars rivaling Ford's or GM's own brands? Yes, I know that such things have been done on a limited basis in the past, but most companies just think it's not good business to support their competitors! Again, however, Swatch's long-term customers are assured that they'll continue to get ETA movements. But Johnny-come-latelys that make no watch parts of their own . . . they will have to find another source of movements!


even if this isn't true it makes a lot of sense |> :-d


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

Chev James said:


> There was an interview in Watch Time magazine with Nicholas Hayek, CEO of the Swatch Group, right before his death. Here's the rub: OTHER watch companies have been asking Swatch to discontinue selling ETA movements to companies that do NOTHING but put an ETA movement into a case that they have designed. Long term customers have nothing to fear. What the other watch companies and Swatch want to do is cut down on the number of watch companies that are not true manufacturers. You can imagine how a proliferation of "fashion watches" with ETA movements can affect sales of other companies' watches. It was the position of Hayek and other companies, like Patek Philippe, that these other companies should really "get into" watchmaking or get out! If you think that is "anti-competitive," think about this: would Ford or General Motors sell engines and transmissions to another company that wanted to make cars rivaling Ford's or GM's own brands? Yes, I know that such things have been done on a limited basis in the past, but most companies just think it's not good business to support their competitors! Again, however, Swatch's long-term customers are assured that they'll continue to get ETA movements. But Johnny-come-latelys that make no watch parts of their own . . . they will have to find another source of movements!


Quite unlikely this is true given the history of the Swiss watch industry and the competitive constraints that they work under.

People who believe this have the same mindset as those who get upset when told the maker of vintage Swiss movements can not be identified.

Remember Swatch was forced to delay their exit from the ebauche market by Swiss antitrust agencies (actually, in the Swiss case, more 'trust-regulation' than 'antitrust').

Indeed, I would not be surprised if Swatch isn't being pressured to divest itself of Eta.

You can not use how American business (or the car business) operates to analyze all acts of the Swiss watch market... it just doesn't work.


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## Tzimisces (Apr 22, 2010)

Eeeb said:


> Quite unlikely this is true given the history of the Swiss watch industry and the competitive constraints that they work under.
> 
> People who believe this have the same mindset as those who get upset when told the maker of vintage Swiss movements can not be identified.
> 
> ...


I recently read the interview with Hayek and this is exactly what he says. He claimed that supplying movements, ebauche and parts to competitors was about 2% of their business. He said quite clearly that the intent is to force watch assemblers to put up or get out. The car analogy was Hayeks used in the interview, except he says that what if I were to go to GM and ask them to manufacture cars for me that I would sell under my name. That is how he saw the watch business. He claimed that the level of entry was the lowest of any business. By an ETA movement, have someone make a case and you're in the watch business. 
The interview is in the Aug. 2010 issue of Watch Time. Instead of guessing, read the interview and associated article.


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## Randy9999 (Sep 6, 2010)

JohnT said:


> Far too much sensationalism here guys! Swatch are not going to stop selling fully assembled ETA movements, but what they are going to do is to stop selling movement "blanks"


So my understanding is that this was true when John wrote this in 2007 but that things have changed, correct? In other words, as of January 1, 2011, ETA will no longer supply movements or any other parts to most independent watch brands -- is this right?


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## jakaraga (Jan 16, 2011)

I think the SWATCH decision will not get deep impact to other brand which using ETA movement before, most of their costumers didn't care knowledge about movement or any technical, they think BRAND NAME, small like us here just minority.
and other movement may replace even with minor lack in quality.


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## gmanaight (Jan 25, 2011)

here is an interesting article covering this topic, which summarises the real facts:

Swatch Group Vows That ETA Will Stop Selling Watch Movements To Competitors

Also, I wonder what will happen to watches from smaller companies such as Steinhart. Will we no longer be able to get the Steinhart Watches with ETA movements?

I agree that it will not affect most consumers, as most consumers do not really care about what movement is in their watch, as long as it looks good and expensive. 
Only those freaks like us will care what movement is in the watch they buy.

I also agree that as much as it may suck, it seems right that if Swatch want to stop supply other companies with their movements, they should be allowed to.

Ford and other car comapnies often do supply their engines to other car manufacturers. HOWEVER, they only do so if they wish and can refuse to as they please.


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## sdchew (Jan 31, 2010)

The facts is that SWATCH Group has stopped selling the movement kits but not completed, assembled movements. Let me cite an example with IWC. 

IWC sells many chronograph watches which use modified 7750 movements. In the past, they bought the movement kits and did the modifications and additional finishings in-house. Now, they get SWATCH Group to do the modifications and finishings (?) and ship the complete assembled movements to IWC. IWC makes a case and installs in the movement.


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## raptorvs (Jan 24, 2011)

sdchew said:


> The facts is that SWATCH Group has stopped selling the movement kits but not completed, assembled movements. Let me cite an example with IWC.
> 
> IWC sells many chronograph watches which use modified 7750 movements. In the past, they bought the movement kits and did the modifications and additional finishings in-house. Now, they get SWATCH Group to do the modifications and finishings (?) and ship the complete assembled movements to IWC. IWC makes a case and installs in the movement.


Practically if someone bye an IWC or BREITLING or whatever uses ETA movments, he is bying only a case with a strap marked IWC or BREITLING or whatever brand, but the heart is a SWATCH!!!!!........sh.it.

Better if ETA stops selling ebauches..in this mode if i bye an IWC or BREITLING or whatever i want , it will be a manifacture.Manifacture is a real watch that worth the price.


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## gmanaight (Jan 25, 2011)

All this info is great to know about. SO, all the current makes will still be around with ETA movements. 

I agree with you raptorvs. When you buy a wtach mostly you are paying for the brand name. 

Thats why companies like Steinhart are so appealing in my opinion. You are not wasting your money just to have a big brand name.


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## conjurer (Jan 15, 2008)

*Will the Japanese Save the Swiss Watchmakers?*

We all know now that the Swatch Group is going to turn off the ETA mechanical tap pretty soon now, cutting off a lot of midrange (and possibly some higher end) manufacturers from buying both ebauches and finished movements. This has been in the works for a decade; Nicholas Hayek wanted to cut them off at the turn of the new century, but the Swiss courts pulled him up short.

There's also been a lot of talk from the Swiss Federation about changing the rules governing what constitutes "Swiss Made" on the dial of Swiss watches, mainly, the value of components used, from the 51% now to some other higher percentage.

I think if both of these issues actually come to pass, obviously a large number of watch manufacturers will either have to adapt in some way or they will go out of business, in a groundswell perhaps as appalling as the Quartz Crisis in the 1970's. Hayek's advice to these makers before his death last year was simple: start making your own movements. On the surface this seems obvious--but, as a practical matter, with development times stretching into years and the costs into the millions of dollars to come up with a new movement, most companies didn't have the financial wherewithal to do it.

Now, the other night on ShopNBC, we've finally seen the commerical launch of the new Miyota 9015 movement in a grotesquely oversized diver from Android. We've been waiting for this new movement for sometime, and it might have been used already in some smaller companies, but I haven't seen it yet. The 9015 has been designed by Miyota to take on ETA's premium engine, the 2892. It is 24 jewels, hacking, handwinding, with a 28800 beat-per-hour rate that equals the best of ETA. It's also slim, like the 2892, and so could be used as a tractor for add-on modules for extra complications (Miyota already has these modules in the pipeline, supposedly.)

The problem, of course, is that Miyota is owned by Citizen, and so is a Japanese-made movement, and the Swiss guidelines on "Swiss Made" won't allow the use of a non-Swiss movement on anything that carries that designation--and the lack of that designation means commercial death for companies doing business out of Switzerland. Unlike just about any other product out there, the "Swiss Made" on the dial of a watch guarantees a certain level of quality; there are fine cars made in Japan, Germany, the USA, and England. For watchmaking, however, there's only Switzerland in the eyes of many discerning collectors and consumers.

Miyota is best known for their bulletproof automatic movement, the 8215. This is a 21 jewel three-hand-with-date movement used for decades by lower-end makers based mainly out of Asia. Most of us have owned at least one or two 8215's; the problem with it is that it's ugly, it doesn't hack, and it's yesterday's technology. Even with that, I've personally owned at least two watches that used that movement (one an Invicta Pro Diver and the other a Deep Blue) that kept, as Charlie Sheen would say, warlock time. The 8215 can last for years without service, and it's very cheap cost means that a timepiece using it would be easy to repair if it ever breaks--a watchmaker could throw away the broken movement and put in a new one.

Here's what I'm thinking: could some of the mid-range companies out of Switzerland adopt the new 9015, and come up with a way that doesn't upset the Swiss Federation to call their production nominally Swiss? Perhaps if Miyota was to set up a Swiss production line, this could happen. This sort of thing has already happened, in a way; TAG's new chronograph movement, I forget the caliber, is based on a Seiko design.

This would be, if it comes to pass, a certain karma-like rebound for the Swiss watchmakers--after the Japanese nearly killed their trade in the 1970's with Quartz, then breathing new life into that same trade riding on Miyota's back.

Naturally, all this could be hot air. Right now, Swatch makes about 7 percent of their income from the sales of movements and kits to third parties; giving up that much income when the world is still struggling with a prolonged economic downturn isn't something they would teach in a business class. Also, the 9015 might turn out to be a dud--a bunch of early failures and recalls of the product could cripple the sales of the new movement.

Personally, I think this could be a new age in watchmaking. I look forward to the next couple of years to see how this all shakes out.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Will the Japanese Save the Swiss Watchmakers?*

I seriously doubt that Citizen intend to use the 9015 to get a toe-hold within the Swiss industry. More likely they are hoping to open up a broader market for non-Swiss mechanicals. Prospective Swiss movement makers will need to look elsewhere, if indeed there are any makers feeling a deseperate need to make their own alternative to ETA movements.

Bear in mind that there are now at least two other all-Swiss manufacturers of generic mechanical movements; Soprod and Sellita. In addition there are at least two more makers of Swiss movements using imported ebauches; Claro-Semag and Valanvron. The fact that these two enterprises have started up indicates that any change to the 'Swiss Movement' regulations will be less significant than you think.

I think it is fair to say that the watch industry in Switzerland is already starting to adapt to the new post-ETA paradigm.


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## James Haury (Apr 10, 2008)

IT is now 2011 Did they?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

James Haury said:


> IT is now 2011 Did they?


Yes, they did ...based on what I've read in this thread and a couple of others on this forum, including the "Smoke and Mirrors" threads.

What changed? Very little that would be apparent to the customer.

- Sellita, formerly the leading 3rd party finisher of ETA ebauches, became the leading maker of ETA-clone movements.
- Several top Swiss brands (IWC, Breitling) that formerly custom-finished ETA ebauches themselves, now buy complete movements finished to their custom specifications by ETA.
- Companies buying complete ETA movements continue to do so.
- At least one Swiss company (Soprod) has begun making their own design of ETA-alternative movements.
- At least 2 Swiss companies (Valanvron, Claro-Semag) have started finishing foreign ebauches as 'Swiss Movement' to sell on to other companies.
- One or two low-volume Swiss makers have finished foreign ebauches for their own use.
- TAG-Heuer bought a foreign design to manufacture completely in-house.

Life goes on.


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## Bahoomba (May 1, 2010)

Obviously, this topic is a hot one, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. Amazingly, a lot of the inferior brands are already starting to tout their new Sellita movement watches as if they've invented something. This, of course, after years of touting ETA as the end-all-and-be-all.

But then again, has anyone seen that car commercial when the kid is picking out a fine guitar? His father is holding a cheaper one and says, "this one is just as good."

The kid holding the high end guitar turns to his father and says, "no...no, it isn't."

_Exactly._


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## t20569cald (Sep 5, 2009)

Bahoomba said:


> Obviously, this topic is a hot one, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. Amazingly, a lot of the inferior brands are already starting to tout their new Sellita movement watches as if they've invented something. This, of course, after years of touting ETA as the end-all-and-be-all.
> 
> But then again, has anyone seen that car commercial when the kid is picking out a fine guitar? His father is holding a cheaper one and says, "this one is just as good."
> 
> ...


Actually people dont seem to get it, ETA is not stopping supply of movements, mealy ebauches which affects only those companies that were big enough to be buying them in the first place. Not one company that is considered a micro or small to mid size will be affected in any way.
For the rest, companies like Brietling, and CO, then their bottom line will be affected sure, but its not like they couldn't afford to buy complete movements from ETA.
From a large business standpoint, it would more than likely be far cheaper medium to long term to tool up and design their own.
It can only be good for the watch business in general, and the consumers will get far more choice. 
OK, these companies will pass on the cost to the customer, but the choice and new offerings will be worth it.


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## pexyme (May 22, 2011)

It's not such a bad move from the SWATCH group.
It's a trend that has been happening in other industries eg. limiting the term Champagne only to those champagnes grown in the region.
For those of to whom these things are important, it helps to indicate a certain level of quality and craftsmenship.


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## pexyme (May 22, 2011)

t's not such a bad move from the SWATCH group. 
It's a trend that has been happening in other industries eg. limiting the term Champagne only to those champagnes grown in the region. 
For the consumer/watch appreciator, it helps indicate a certain quality of genuine workmanship and not 'percieved' workmanship. Otherwise it is all disingenuity.


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

* Swatch Group : COMCO opens an investigation against Swatch Group
*

Biel / Bienne (Switzerland), June 8, 2011 - The Swiss Competition Commission COMCO announced today on its website that "COMCO is opening an investigation against Swatch Group".

*This investigation was initiated by Swatch Group *[emphasis added] and should determine which mutually agreed solution is available to allow Swatch Group to reduce gradually its deliveries of mechanical watch movements and assortments to third parties, in the interest of the entire watch industry.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Eeeb said:


> * Swatch Group : COMCO opens an investigation against Swatch Group
> *
> 
> Biel / Bienne (Switzerland), June 8, 2011 - The Swiss Competition Commission COMCO announced today on its website that "COMCO is opening an investigation against Swatch Group".
> ...


...which is discussed here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/how-resolve-eta-situation-551481.html


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## Scottish Steve (Sep 7, 2010)

Eeeb said:


> This investigation was initiated by Swatch Groupand should determine which mutually agreed solution is available to allow Swatch Group to reduce gradually its deliveries of mechanical watch movements and assortments to third parties, *in the interest of the entire watch industry*.


Like the sign in Chengdu Airport Bureau de Change which states

"For your comfort and convenience, a charge of 50 rmb will now be levied for all transactions."

If The Swatch Group had been entirely responsible for the development of the big 3 r 4 mvts in-use out there, I'd think they were behaving ruthlesssly and without heart but within the bounds of normal (i.e. ****ty) business practices. But am I not right in thinking they had nothing to do with developing these mvts and have simply decided to get a stranglehold on their competitors? And a non-Swiss Ebauche which has been finished in Switzerland is NOT a Swiss mvt in my book. The more I learn about watchmaking, the less "Swiss Made" seems to mean.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Scottish Steve said:


> ...And a non-Swiss Ebauche which has been finished in Switzerland is NOT a Swiss mvt in my book. The more I learn about watchmaking, the less "Swiss Made" seems to mean.


Ah, "in my book". That's not how the majority of customers will see it as they simply won't know or care.

Those who buy Breitling or Tag-Heuer or Omega or (add your favourite brand here) will have an interest in a product that is Swiss enough to qualify in your book. And that is what they will continue to get. The Breitling will have an ETA movement customised by ETA to Breitling's spec, the Omega is of course a Swatch Group brand, and the TAG might have a Tag-built movement based on a Japanese design but made entirely in Switzerland. I'm not sure if that Swiss enough in your book.

But if you're in the market of a Fossil or Zodiac or Rotary or Armani, chances are you don't much care. Fossil offer Swiss made and non-Swiss made models. The Swiss ones use a Chinese ebauche finished in Switzerland, but to the customer is is simply 'Swiss'. Likewise Zodiac's automatics use a Chines ebauche. Rotary and Armani offer Swiss made quartz or non-Swiss mechanical, but customer simply sees a famous brand and a skiny skeleton automatic movement. Customer is happy.

When it comes to high-volume sales of mechanical watches, there is an ever growing selection of Non-Swatch Group Swiss made watches out there that will satisfy their customers requirements, and a vast array of non-Swiss options for those customers who don't equate mechanical watches with 'Swiss'.

And for those for whom a non-Swiss ebauche makes for a watch that is 'not really Swiss' but who can't afford either a Swatch-owned brand or one of the others who use enhanced ETA movements, there are those Swiss watch companies who use Sellita and Soprod.

Oh and if you're in the market for a tourbillon, but it must be both Swiss designed and Swiss made, but you can't afford any of the established brands with their in-house movements, there is only one Swiss maker of generic tourbillons, Technotime, and it's not owned by the Swatch Group.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Yet another maker of generic Swiss mechanical movements: Techno Sablier

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/techno-salbier-movements-info-required-please-558054.html

So even as ETA continues to restrict supply of fully-built-up movements, more competition is stepping in to fill the void. Interestingly, the ebauches used by Techno Sablier include not only Sea-Gull, but Shanghai as well, adding to the number of foreign ebauche suppliers able to feed the Swiss movement industry. More will surely follow.

Note that two clients of Techno Sablier are Hanowa Swiss Military and Roamer. Those are a couple of well-known Swiss names who already source their quartz movements from manufacturers other than ETA. Now they are meeting the increasing demand for affordable mechanical Swiss watches without needing to bid for a share of the dwindling supply of ETA movements.


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## stevie_b (Apr 16, 2010)

***Warning - definite re-post***

The Swiss Watch Industry - Swatch Group Record Profit In 2010

Well whatever they did / didn't do in 2010, definitely worked as you can see in the above link.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

stevie_b said:


> ***Warning - definite re-post***
> 
> The Swiss Watch Industry - Swatch Group Record Profit In 2010
> 
> Well whatever they did / didn't do in 2010, definitely worked as you can see in the above link.


That would possibly be due to their success in getting some of their most famous name external clients to buy their custom ETA movements fully built up. The value-adding within ETA's facilities probably returns a greater net profit than bulk selling of ebauches. That in turn may have guided their decision to limit supply of fully-built-up basic-spec movements this year.

I wonder how this affects the industry in terms of employment. Have ETA taken on more staff to do the custom finishing? How many of those previously finishing ETA movements in the client companies have been retained to work on the in-house movements, and how many have gone to work for ETA? And how about all the extra staff employed in recent years by the newly-started generic movement makers (primarily finishing imported ebauches)? Probably little change for Sellita who previously finished ETA movements and now cut their own ebauches and finish them.

There are two aspects to movement manufacture: cutting the major components (the ebauche), and finishing/assembling/adjusting the movement. The former is largely automated to a robotic level, whereas the latter is more labour-intensive. So these days it should be in the finishing that the majority of jobs lie. Therefore the number of people employed in movement manufacturing in Switzerland should have increased. Does anybody have any employment stats to back that up?


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## dstella (Oct 7, 2011)

The most striking example being Eterna, _whose 1411/1424 is the grandfather of all modern ETA movements._ Eterna uses Sellita now and sells its watches for double what it did when it used ETA movements (through the mid-2000s) and four times what it did when it either made its own (like the 1489K) or used elaborated ETAs (like the 12824). That Eterna was cut loose from the Swatch Group after providing all its basic technology is pretty ironic.

D



Bahoomba said:


> Obviously, this topic is a hot one, and it's not going to go away anytime soon. Amazingly, a lot of the inferior brands are already starting to tout their new Sellita movement watches as if they've invented something. This, of course, after years of touting ETA as the end-all-and-be-all.
> 
> But then again, has anyone seen that car commercial when the kid is picking out a fine guitar? His father is holding a cheaper one and says, "this one is just as good."
> 
> ...


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## Stensbjerg (Feb 28, 2011)

roberev said:


> I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


It is true
I hope it will mean they start doing something else then the easy overpriced ETA way:-!


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

joesph-steven said:


> View attachment 548496
> 
> 
> I just received the Steinhart e-newsletter today and read that Swatch has announced that it will stop selling its ETA movements to outside companies in 2010. Is this true? If so, what effect will this have on non-Swatch companies (such as Doxa) that rely on ETA movements?


Read this entire thread and you will know.


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## Pat43Da2 (Nov 12, 2011)

all watches will increase as well....


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## Muslickz (Nov 1, 2011)

*Re: Will the Japanese Save the Swiss Watchmakers?*



Chascomm said:


> I seriously doubt that Citizen intend to use the 9015 to get a toe-hold within the Swiss industry. More likely they are hoping to open up a broader market for non-Swiss mechanicals. Prospective Swiss movement makers will need to look elsewhere, if indeed there are any makers feeling a deseperate need to make their own alternative to ETA movements.
> 
> Bear in mind that there are now at least two other all-Swiss manufacturers of generic mechanical movements; Soprod and Sellita. In addition there are at least two more makers of Swiss movements using imported ebauches; Claro-Semag and Valanvron. The fact that these two enterprises have started up indicates that any change to the 'Swiss Movement' regulations will be less significant than you think.
> 
> I think it is fair to say that the watch industry in Switzerland is already starting to adapt to the new post-ETA paradigm.


I understand and I second that notion....

-M


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## JWM69 (Feb 28, 2011)

*Swatch, Supplier to Rivals, Now Aims to Cut Them Off*

There is an ongoing discussion of the following New York Times article in the Omega forum. However, it seems appropriate to post a link to this article on what appears to be the original thread for this discussion.

"Swatch, Supplier to Rivals, Now Aims to Cut Them Off"
By RAPHAEL MINDER
Published: December 9, 2011
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/business/swatch-group-to-trim-sales-of-watch-parts-to-rivals.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1323678248-7+f2f0gPIEX/jKx0+EuEFg


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

*Re: Swatch, Supplier to Rivals, Now Aims to Cut Them Off*

And here as well: https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/swatch-supplier-rivals-now-aims-cut-them-off-619583.html


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## Muslickz (Nov 1, 2011)

SwissWatchStore said:


> Nice movement photography guys, stunning!:-!


I second that SWS the pics are beautiful.... I can never take crisp pics like that lol A+++

-M


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## dhavetam (Mar 16, 2010)

I think swatch has every right to do so as i guess they arent getting big profits from that. why not focus on a better business model

as for us plebs... we benefit as they will be more movement types around and more competition to be become better movements.


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## bozoweb (Sep 17, 2011)

Apparently the Swatch/EPA is going through on 1/1 (see Sunday New york Times)

.Hypothetical: I have an Oris (non-Swatch) watch w/an ETA movement.
The movement goes bust. Oris has exhausted whatever stockpile of ETA movements it had. How does the watch get fixed?

Question: Until this mess is cleaned up, isn't it safe to only buy a watch from one of the many Swatch watch companies?


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## bozoweb (Sep 17, 2011)

Apparentlly the Swatch/ETA ban is going thru 1/1 (See Sunday New Tork Times Bus. section)>

Hypothetical: I have an Oris (non-Swatch) watch with an ETA movement that goes bust. Oris has exhausted its supply of ETA movements. How does the watch get fixed?

Question: Until this mess is straightened out, isn't safe to only buy a watch from one of the many Swatch companies (excluding companies that make their own movements).


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

^ bozoweb: you are assuming quite a lot, there being insufficient evidence to lay a foundation to support any such assumption. Firstly, the matter is before the Competition Regulators (i.e., it may NEVER happen, and even if it does, it will likely be done in stages as in, phased-out; we just don't know the outcome).

As to ETA, there are no patents on that of which I am aware, being around since forever (note: Rolex' patent on the perpetual self-winding movement was filed in the 30s, upon which literally everything else is based, has long since fallen into the public domain). The problem as I see it is as it relates to springs, supplied to ETA by another Swatch subsidiary (Nivarox-FAR), but which are made by a small handful of independents also [such as Rolex, which has the volume to make it cost efficient for them to do so, indeed, its springs being part and parcel of its own (exclusive to it) patented shock absorption system, a major improvement to everything else]. However, as to the prior stuff, i.e., those made by i.e. Nivarox and supplied to others outside the Swatch (excluding its ceramics, which is no more supplied to others as is Rolex' stuff) there are others with the capability to make their own, it being old technology (i.e., public domain), and many do make their own: such as Seiko, the Richemont Group (includes: Cartier, Van Cleef & Arpels, Piaget, Vacheron Constantin, Jaeger-LeCoultre, IWC, Panerai and Montblanc), the Festina Group (producer and supplier of springs, etc. to its own and outside groups being second supplier after only Nivarox-Far, as I understand it), and seems also that LVMH has it sorted, so far as Tag Heuer was one of the watchmakers originally seeking an injunction against ETA/Swatch to prevent them from phasing out supplies, but dropped out from the suit for relief without comment [I can only assume but do not know for certain that this is because it's not of concern to them any longer, being part of LVMH (which includes Zenith among others), in turn, though Tag Heuer isn't commenting about it, as said].

Meanwhile, and quite apart from this, using Oris as an example, there is such a thing as a warranty, which the supplier MUST honour (meaning, Oris will have and continue to be able to get parts in turn from its supplier for and throughout the balance of the warranty period from, in this case ETA, which is contractually bound to honour same (for your ultimate benefit), and no doubt i.e. Oris will have and does have spare parts on hand for some time to come thereafter, as most makers do, so as not to worry about any transition period, assuming any of this happens in the first place, that is, all of this is bears repeating is before the regulators, whose job it is to protect markets and consumers, etc).

This, not to mention and regardless, watchmakers have parts and/or can easily get them (there are tons of watches out there, tons of parts, as you say not just Swatch but also numerous others using ETA movements, so no worries; heck, I have vintage watches, including a military Rolex for e.g. from the WW2--Rolex long stopped servicing that one, it being over 60 years old, and yet I've no problems getting parts, or rather, my watchmaker doesn't. Lots of parts. Even more true of ETA which powers so much more than a single watchmaker, its "tech" long in the public domain as such, and lots and lots of parts out there so no worries as to your warranty, etc. , at all 

Cheers.


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## blurrycloud (Mar 22, 2011)

*ETA still service-able in the future?*

Seeing that Swatch has now started to stop supplying many smaller companies with ETA movements...
Does that mean that in the future, it will be tougher to find a watchmaker to service your common ETA 2824 and ETA 2893 movements?
Or are there enough ETA-similar movements, that this will not be an issue?


----------



## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

*Re: ETA still service-able in the future?*



blurrycloud said:


> Seeing that Swatch has now started to stop supplying many smaller companies with ETA movements...
> Does that mean that in the future, it will be tougher to find a watchmaker to service your common ETA 2824 and ETA 2893 movements?
> Or are there enough ETA-similar movements, that this will not be an issue?


Servicing an ETA and getting spare parts will be no problem at all.


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## hawkeyes (Aug 21, 2011)

The reduction of movements and Components from swatch will greatly benefit the bigger high end companies (swatch, rolex, lvmh, richemont) at the expense of the smaller or mid-market companies (companies that sells in the $2000-$5000 range). This is because the higher end companies either have their own movements or have the financial ability to invest in in-house manufacturing. The mid-market companies do not have the same ability as their margins are slimmer, and have less financial flexibility. There also are not sufficient alternative supplier of movements to fulfill their needs in the interim.

So my question is, if I am interested in watches in the $2k-$5k range, should I 

(1). Buy it now because a shortage of components will push prices up significantly as companies in this range will increase price to make up for reduction in volume sales due to shortage of units for sale.

(2) Don't buy now because this reduction in supply of movements will result in some of the mid-market companies to disappear or consolidate. Even if these companies are able to source movements from other sources, say miyota etc, they will lose the "Swiss made" brand value. This combined with recession in the euro zone will further compound on their challenges.

(3) Ignore all these changes in the ETA supplies and make buying independent of this.


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## Skippy4000 (Jan 1, 2012)

hawkeyes said:


> The reduction of movements and Components from swatch will greatly benefit the bigger high end companies (swatch, rolex, lvmh, richemont) at the expense of the smaller or mid-market companies (companies that sells in the $2000-$5000 range). This is because the higher end companies either have their own movements or have the financial ability to invest in in-house manufacturing. The mid-market companies do not have the same ability as their margins are slimmer, and have less financial flexibility. There also are not sufficient alternative supplier of movements to fulfill their needs in the interim.
> 
> So my question is, if I am interested in watches in the $2k-$5k range, should I
> 
> ...


Number 3. Even if all of them do go bust, someone will always have to make movements for the boutique brands. And, as much as we like our watch to say Swiss, the Japanese do make a legit and accurate mechanical movement.


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## rumer-willis (Jan 31, 2012)

View attachment 616434


The internet was made for speculation and the OP's is as plausible as any I've seen but my own speculation does not lead to same conclusions.

Here's one from January of 2011 which I interpret as reduced ebauche sales being distinct from movement reduced sales. If my guesswork is correct, the ebauche would dry up ahead of the complete movements and would probably not impact the micro brands as they wouldn't be equipped to work with a "bag 'o parts".

It's also interesting that the 25% of the complete movement market that ETA didn't account for was comprised mostly of people turning ETA ebauches into movements. There are apparently a number of places one can order ETA movements from and I would not consider the difficulties of a US distributor to have much bearing on the supplies available to the micro brands.

One thing which is completely a bastard child of my fallible memory and personal speculation was Swatch's original motivation ten years ago - I could swear I've read that the main issue was cutting off the supply of ebauches that were turning up in counterfeits.

The ebauche is priced considerably less than a movement and the money saved using cheap labor benefits more from an ebauche - the amount of labor saved between someone in Switzerland screwing in a complete movement and someone in China doing likewise is relatively minor compared to the time invested in turning an ebauche into something serviceable. An ebauche assembled for a labor cost of $2.59 is what was giving the late Mr. Hayek a case of the vapors. For all I know, had ETA not been absorbed into Swatch, they would probably be happily blasting boatloads of parts into the PRC - money, after all, is money - right up until your new owners see you pissing in the soup.

But the biggest deal is that ETA is, in fact, still selling ebauches outside the Swatch group as well as movements and I'd guess the movements will be cut back slower than the ebauches if at all - it's the ebauches that got Swatch's knickers in a twist due to where they were turning up.

In the specific case of microbrands, ETA could cut back 98% on complete movements and still have enough that the micros could thrive - as the junior Mr. Halek has already stated, it's not so much that they want to cut off supply - they want the right to say "you, but not you", to have some say in where they go. And micro brands just aren't perceived as a threat to Swatch. Quite the contrary they're a source of income to Swatch.


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## buffalowings (Dec 16, 2011)

hawkeyes said:


> The reduction of movements and Components from swatch will greatly benefit the bigger high end companies (swatch, rolex, lvmh, richemont) at the expense of the smaller or mid-market companies (companies that sells in the $2000-$5000 range). This is because the higher end companies either have their own movements or have the financial ability to invest in in-house manufacturing. The mid-market companies do not have the same ability as their margins are slimmer, and have less financial flexibility. There also are not sufficient alternative supplier of movements to fulfill their needs in the interim.
> 
> So my question is, if I am interested in watches in the $2k-$5k range, should I
> 
> ...


if orient can make their movements in house, middle range makers should be able to do the same


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

The 'ETA ebauches in fakes' line is a complete furphy. Hayek may have said it, but it doesn't mean there's any truth to it. That's like the line about 'genuine Swiss made replica' that sellers of fake Rolexes use. Who'd believe that?

How many fakes actually use ETA ebauches/movements? Why bother? The point about a counterfeit is the deceptive outer appearance. Any movement will do so long as it supports the functions suggested by the outer appearance. e.g. in the case of a fake Rolex, any automatic movement with centre-seconds and date will do. Most fakes are (so far as we know) assembled in small workshops in China using the cheapest available off-the-shelf parts with the minimum modification. When it comes to movements, that means fully-built-up DG, Sea-Gull and Tongji movements. For more specialist designs there are locally-made clones of the ETA 7750 and 6497. Building up ETA ebauches is not the cheap option.

Trawl through this very long thread and you will find many more plausible business reasons for ETA turning off the ebauche tap.


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## Nocturnal310 (Sep 17, 2011)

i think its a good decision....

otherwise luxury watch market was becoming like Laptop market with Omega and Ball being like Sony VAIO...and Hamilton like Dell or HP.


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## Sodiac (Dec 6, 2008)

*Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Here's an article in today's National Jeweler Daily News with some comments from watch manufacturers regarding the reduction in ETA movement supplies.

Interesting that some companies are getting all they need (Ball), while others have been completely cut off of Nivarox and/or other supplies (TAG Heuer, Frederique Constant).

Also, apparently Selitta is having problems keeping up due to some of the parts they're (not) getting from Swatch.


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## Astropin (Dec 13, 2008)

Good article... thanks.


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## Rusty_Shakleford (Jan 19, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Interesting reading. Thanks for the link.

RS


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

The bit that isn't mentioned, or if it is mentioned it'll only be in passing as it is here, is the supply of non ETA parts, specifically mainsprings from Nivarox, another Swatch group owned entity. As I recall, Nivarox controls maybe 80% of mainspring supply. If they stop supplying to non-swatch entities like Sellita and Soprod and whomever else doesn't use that other 20% of mainsprings, then you won't even have those movements from them.

Losing the supply from Nivarox is a bigger threat than losing supply from ETA.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Thanks for posting--that's an interesting and somewhat scary article. While most of us would like more in-house manufacture movements I think the downside could be fewer makers and higher prices. Take a Sinn 556 or Stowa Marine which are great watches fitted with ETA movements at fairly reasonable prices (near $1k) and they become perhaps $3k+ watches with in-house movements. That or they keep prices steady by fitting them with movements that have perception problems (and supply issues of their own). I fear the great middle class of watches will vanish and the choices for the most part will be lower cost, lower prestige movements or much higher cost in-house movements with little in between. I don't think that is all bad, but we may look back on this time right now as a sweet spot where really good watches with Swiss movements could be had for pretty good prices.


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## bluloo (Nov 24, 2008)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



flyingpicasso said:


> I fear the great middle class of watches will vanish and the choices for the most part will be lower cost, lower prestige movements or much higher cost in-house movements with little in between. I don't think that is all bad, but we may look back on this time right now as a sweet spot where really good watches with Swiss movements could be had for pretty good prices.


They won't vanish. The Swiss models will just be (primarily) sold by Swatch Group members, and those that have the best relationship with Sellita.


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## v76 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



flyingpicasso said:


> I fear the great middle class of watches will vanish and the choices for the most part will be lower cost, lower prestige movements or much higher cost in-house movements with little in between. I don't think that is all bad, but we may look back on this time right now as a sweet spot where really good watches with Swiss movements could be had for pretty good prices.


Good prices on Swiss mechanicals/automatics haven't been had since the 1970s ;-)

The scenario painted in the article could prove a windfall for Citizen/Miyota and Seiko.


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## Gordon Fraser (Oct 25, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

As someone trying to start up a timepiece company, finding suppliers of ETA movements has been very very difficult, and when I did find the rare place with enough movements to supply, they were so highly priced because of their rarity. It just means I've been forced to think outside of Swatch/ETA but try and retain the much sought after "Swiss Made" status without the ETA label, especially if I want to try and keep them reasonably priced.

It's daft! There are so so many companies DESPERATE to get a hold of mechanical ETA movements...There's obviously a business reason for Swatch to restrict ETA movements to smaller companies...but I don't know enough to know what that business reason is.

Surely with the right tools, experience and materials anyone can make movements and as far as I know there's nothing unobtainable in a watch movement...there's no rare materials involved...... So why isn't there more companies manufacturing movements as their company..in other words not in house movements but movements available to everyone?

Is it a legal thing i.e. Swatch hold patents restricting anyone from making them? Is it an experience thing i.e. ETA know all the parameters to make an efficient movement and no-one else can work it out? Maybe it's the tooling needed to fabricate these parts like hairsprings or pallet forks in a mass-produced manner being too costly.

Or is it just a case of Swatch own every company that manufactures parts that make up mechanical movements and is not allowing anyone else to get a hold of them?

Whatever it is, I would sure like to know.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Gordon Fraser said:


> As someone trying to start up a timepiece company, finding suppliers of ETA movements has been very very difficult, and when I did find the rare place with enough movements to supply, they were so highly priced because of their rarity. It just means I've been forced to think outside of Swatch/ETA but try and retain the much sought after "Swiss Made" status without the ETA label, especially if I want to try and keep them reasonably priced.
> 
> It's daft! There are so so many companies DESPERATE to get a hold of mechanical ETA movements...There's obviously a business reason for Swatch to restrict ETA movements to smaller companies...but I don't know enough to know what that business reason is.
> 
> ...


Expertise is a limiting factor for sure, but the overriding limitation is money. I think Damasko just brought an in-house developed and produced movement to market at a cost in the millions of Euros.


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## econdreras (Dec 25, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Maybe people will still start to realize that there are other non-Swiss movements that are just as good as ETA for less money. The "prestige" buyer will still only buy a "Swiss Made" watch, but hopefull others might start buying watches with Japanese or Chinese movements.


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## v76 (Dec 29, 2009)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

I wonder which are the mainspring and balance spring manufacturers that supply Swiss brands other than Nivarox.

Hayek Sr. had been indicating since the early '90s that Swatch would cut/curtail supplies of ebauches and components to non-Swatch companies. Wonder if it was apathy or mismanagement that led to the other big players not developing alternate solutions or supply chains.

The Sellita range are drop in replacements for their ETA counterparts (practically clones). Soprod is another alternative ... Technotime and Vaucher at the higher-end. However, even combined they don't have anything close to the production output of ETA.

It's a case of a whole industry (Swiss mechanicals) shooting itself in its collective feet.


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## 3th3r (Jul 20, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

If a large group of the non-swatch brands would pull their heads out of the sand and pool their resources together, I bet they could start manufacturing their own parts/movements. In Switzerland, Germany, or wherever they deemed most advantageous.


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## ljb187 (Nov 6, 2009)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

I'd love it if my Sinn 656 had a Seiko 6R or if my Tutima F2 UTC had a Seiko 4S. Heck I might even prefer it...seems like a cool mash up and a more modern and worldly way of doing things. If Sea-Gull ever gets there then I'm fine with that too. Competition makes everything better and if I can get better movements cheaper (not so much for in-house on watches like these) then I'm all for it.


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## econdreras (Dec 25, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



ljb187 said:


> I'd love it if my Sinn 656 had a Seiko 6R or if my Tutima F2 UTC had a Seiko 4S. Heck I might even prefer it...seems like a cool mash up and a more modern and worldly way of doing things. If Sea-Gull ever gets there then I'm fine with that too. Competition makes everything better and if I can get better movements cheaper (not so much for in-house on watches like these) then I'm all for it.


Agreed. And we all know that Seiko is capable of making a movement that is equal in every way to an ETA. I have a 6R15C in my Seiko SARB065 and besides keeping great time, the power reserve is wicked. And we also know that Seiko invented the Spring Drive which is just an amazing piece of technology.

So much of this comes down to that "Swiss Made" label that has to be one of the best marketing campaigns ever. Your average consumer simply equates Swiss Made as being the best. It's a shame.

I also think that Sea-Gull has a lot to gain from this. As it is, companies are using their eubaches and assembling them in Switzerland so they can use the Swiss Made label. The demand for their product is going to increase significantly which should allow them to invest more of their return into QC, which seems to be their biggest problem. It's not like Sea-Gull isn't capable of making an outstanding movement. We know they are.

Competition is good for everyone. I am looking forward to the future.


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## punch (Jan 24, 2007)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

I found that article VERY interesting. I like this quote espically..



> Members of Swatch Group's controlling family, the Hayeks, have expressed publicly the desire for their company to stop being the industry's "supermarket" for movements. Swatch Group is tired of supplying the critical components of mechanical watches while other brands pour their resources into flashy marketing campaigns.


Less celeberty endorsements, more in-house movements you say?! That sounds way to reasonable.


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## econdreras (Dec 25, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Swatch wants to squeeze out the competition. Period. Once they do that, the can raise the price of their brands significantly. This is all about profit - nothing more. I believe that part of the plan was to be a "good guy" and supply the movements until the Swiss Made tag was entrenched (perception became reality). Now is the time for them to look to control a huge segment of the "middle" Swiss market. This is just my opinion. But it wouldn't surprise me to see Swiss watches consist of $8,000+ watches with in-house movements like Rolex and $2,000+ watches with Swatch movements in them. Just a guess, but I wouldn't be shocked. Get that Tissot Le Locle before it becomes a $1,500 watch.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Swatch Group said:


> _Swatch Group is tired of supplying the critical components of mechanical watches_




What did they expect was going to happen when they bought the key manufacturer of movements that supplies the industry?
That just sounds like rationalising their government supported monopoly and then hoping that no one looks beyond the words.


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## KevinP. (Dec 24, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Thanks for the link, this is very interesting.


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## youcannotbeserious (Jan 5, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

I'm glad I purchased the bulk of my watches before this event.


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## jtstav (Jul 11, 2010)

Just curious, does this mean future repairs for non swatch brands using ETA movements will be more expensive/hard to fix because of their availability? I'd not be surprised if say 5 years down the line a watch from a boutique brand like Steinhart would be challenging to repair because of this. Maybe I'm wrong though. It would really stink to findout parts could only be sourced from Swatch if they make the watch needing the repair. At that point i'd more likely swap in a Seagull copy and call it a day.


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## Rachdanon (Jan 30, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Great article and responses. What all these mean is that soon all (rather the majority) of movements would be 'in-house' so assuming that all the movements are fit for purpose, what differentiates the brands would be image (related to price), finish, etc. sounds good, no more 'oh this watch is better because it is in-house' .


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## bluloo (Nov 24, 2008)

jtstav said:


> Just curious, does this mean future repairs for non swatch brands using ETA movements will be more expensive/hard to fix because of their availability? I'd not be surprised if say 5 years down the line a watch from a boutique brand like Steinhart would be challenging to repair because of this. Maybe I'm wrong though. It would really stink to findout parts could only be sourced from Swatch if they make the watch needing the repair. At that point i'd more likely swap in a Seagull copy and call it a day.


I doubt, very much, that repair parts would be difficult to source.


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

There are a number of articles interviewing Mr Hayek and him explaining why.

Most of the above posts on this page have it entirely wrong. First, ETA was not a movement powerhouse before SWATCH bought them. How many of you have an Eterna watch? There you go.

SWATCH put A LOT of money and human resources into ETA to get where they are, then the government came in and FORCED them to supply their competitors. I am not aware of another arrangement ike this anywhere in the world.

IMHO, if I was running the business under these conditions, I for damn sure wouldn't want to spend a dime increasing capacity in my movement plant so I could increase sales at Hamilton, Omega, et al. I just want all the movements I can make to end up in my brand's watches, which certainly carry more margin % than an ebauche or movement.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

~tc~ said:


> There are a number of articles interviewing Mr Hayek and him explaining why.
> 
> Most of the above posts on this page have it entirely wrong. First, ETA was not a movement powerhouse before SWATCH bought them. How many of you have an Eterna watch? There you go.


Where?

Are you saying that the existence of other generic movement makers in Switzerland prior to the creation of the Swatch Group means that ETA were not a major player? Besides which, Swatch did not 'buy' ETA. ETA, as part of ESA, belonged to one of two major cartels that by the 1980s had swallowed up the greater part of the Swiss watch industry. To ensure their survival (after earlier failing to meet the challenge of quartz watches) the merged to form the Swatch Group. All generic movement manufacture was then centralised under the ETA banner. Designs that competed directly with existing ETA designs were dropped, regardless of their individual merit. Remember AS?

And how exactly does that relate to the current situation under discussion?



> SWATCH put A LOT of money and human resources into ETA to get where they are, then the government came in and FORCED them to supply their competitors. I am not aware of another arrangement ike this anywhere in the world.


The Japanese automotive industry would be a good place to look. Also look at the way the Japanese government has managed steel quotas to heavy industry. You don't need to have a totalitarian political system to have a centrally planned economy.

Watchmaking is one of Switzerland's most important industries and the government has long had a stake in how it was organized, including brokering mergers between corporations. Because Swatch Group controls so much of the industry, they are naturally working closely with the government.



> IMHO, if I was running the business under these conditions, I for damn sure wouldn't want to spend a dime increasing capacity in my movement plant so I could increase sales at Hamilton, Omega, et al. I just want all the movements I can make to end up in my brand's watches, which certainly carry more margin % than an ebauche or movement.


Hamilton and Omega are both properties of the Swatch Group. Omega was the flagship brand of one of those two cartels I mentioned earlier. Hamilton was a formerly US-owned company bought up by the Swiss purely for its name.

Most of the discussion on this thread has not been about whether Swatch Group should be forced to supply components outside of the Group, but rather whether cutting supply is a wise business decision for them, and what the consequences will be for the consumer.


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## GBOGH (Nov 15, 2011)

Interesting...


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## Xeth (Mar 11, 2011)

Servicing my ball watch is going to get expensive?


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## Muslickz (Nov 1, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



youcannotbeserious said:


> I'm glad I purchased the bulk of my watches before this event.


I am so with you on that one  I did the same 

-M


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*The latest in the TAG-Heuer Seiko story*

An interesting example of some of the ways in which non-Swatch Swiss companies will use imported components to reduce reliance on Swatch parts suppliers.

Tag Heuer says Seiko parts won't harm Swiss made | Reuters

It is worth noting that had TAG decided to buy in a Japanese ebauche for Swiss finishing and assembly, then they would have been sunk by Swatches tightening of supply of escapement parts. as it is, by building the majority of the movement themselves, they still have some leeway to import parts while meeting the 'Swiss Made' rules.



> *Tag Heuer says Seiko parts won't harm "Swiss made"*
> 
> Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:06am EDT
> 
> ...


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## Eeeb (Jul 12, 2007)

*Re: The latest in the TAG-Heuer Seiko story*



Chascomm said:


> An interesting example of some of the ways in which non-Swatch Swiss companies will use imported components to reduce reliance on Swatch parts suppliers.
> 
> Tag Heuer says Seiko parts won't harm Swiss made | Reuters
> 
> It is worth noting that had TAG decided to buy in a Japanese ebauche for Swiss finishing and assembly, then they would have been sunk by Swatches tightening of supply of escapement parts. as it is, by building the majority of the movement themselves, they still have some leeway to import parts while meeting the 'Swiss Made' rules.


To the best of my knowledge, TAGHeuer does* NOT* buy ebauches from Seiko. TAGHeuer bought rights to use the Seiko patents. They then re-engineered the movement making a number of improvements. The Calibre 1887 (the movement in question) is made almost entirely in TAGHeuers own facilities in Switzerland. Babin (the TAG CEO) describes this in posts he made in the TAG forum last year.

Historically this is the way Swiss movements evolve -- take a movement you like and improve it. If you want to do this on a movement with patent protection, you need to by rights from the patent holder (which is what TAG did). Often the movement is out of patent protection and no rights need to be acquired. A good example is the evolution of chronographs from Venus to Valjoux to ETA.

Ernie is arranging for me to talk to Babin. I'll ask him to what he was referring in the cited article. He did post this week that the hairsprings have suddenly become unavailable from ETA. So they had to scramble to get dual sourcing from two outside firms... maybe one is sourcing from Seiko.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: The latest in the TAG-Heuer Seiko story*



Eeeb said:


> To the best of my knowledge, TAGHeuer does* NOT* buy ebauches from Seiko.


That's what I said. My point is that if they _had_ done that (and many people seem to see their use of a Seiko design as being the same thing :-s) then they would have been stuck when Swatch/Nivarox tightened supply. As it is they still have enough local content to allow the purchase of some Japanese parts for their certified Swiss Movements.



> Ernie is arranging for me to talk to Babin. I'll ask him to what he was referring in the cited article. He did post this week that the hairsprings have suddenly become unavailable from ETA. So they had to scramble to get dual sourcing from two outside firms... maybe one is sourcing from Seiko.


I'm looking forward to seeing some more detail.

Until you posted, I did not know for sure that it was hairsprings that were the problem, but I guessed it based on TAG's earlier disclosure of which parts they were outsourcing for the cal 1887, as well as posts in this thread indicating that Nivarox were restricting supply.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Recently I came across a brand I'd not heard of before; Alfex
Alfex Swiss Made | Design watches | Alfex

They seem to be a small Swiss independent maker of Swiss made watches comparable to the likes of Tissot or Roamer. Until recently their range was dominated by quartz models but now have started to venture into automatic movements. Seems an odd time to make such a move if the doom and gloom of some of the posts in this thread are to believed.

So how did they manage it? Obviously they're not in a position to design and build their own movements from scratch.

Do they buy generic movements from ETA? No.
Do they buy generic movements from one of ETA's all-Swiss competitors (Soprod, Sellita, Depa))? No.
Do they buy generic movements from a Swiss finisher of Chinese ebauches(Depa, Claro-Semag, TechnoSablier, Valanvron)? No.

Alfex's solution to the affordable Swiss automatic is to buy in Sea-Gull ST18 ebauches direct from China and finish them in-house to meet Swiss Made requirements. So in one move they have not only widened the options for consumers of affordable Swiss made automatics, but they have also developed new in-house skill-sets in the area of movement finishing that I'm sure will be of ongoing benefit to the company.

Notwithstanding the stories of component supply bottlenecks at Nivarox and suchlike, the range of non-ETA options is growing steadily.


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

That's a very interesting point. But I am starting to have problem with more and more watch makers selling none Swiss made watches as Swiss. I mean 100 % none Swiss made, like the old days. I am not 100 % sure what the exact ratio is Is but I think only 51+% needs to be Swiss?

It would be nice for all companies stating what part of the watch is outsourced out side Swiss with some guidelines

To me it is not even a point if out side parts in better or compareable to Swiss made parts, if I am paying more for Swiss made I want it Swiss made not assembled in Swiss from Chinese part.


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Rainman, yes, over 50 gets you the Swiss mark, and some watchmakers are complaining about that, wanting to see the percentage raised. With the Asian in particular Chinese manufacturers moving in to fill the void, I believe that the percentage issue will become more heated in time (inevitable, really: where there's demand, there always follows supply and the Chinese are more than willing, ready and able to supply, as others here and myself have discussed; doesn't surprise me that China has filled this void at all, business is business and if watchmakers without the money/volume and/or know-how to make their own springs for e.g. can't get it from the Swatch Group, then only makes sense they'll outsource from someone else. Very few made their own to begin with, so outsourced as it was. No difference really if it comes from ETA, Japan or China in their minds. Business is business, and do most people--when they buy affordable, reasonably priced watches really care? Given that the majority of the public have never heard of Nivarox/FAR much less know (or care) about parachrom or silicon improvements thereto, does it really matter? I think not. But to most of the public "Swiss Made" on the dial does, this is true and why I believe the issue as to re-visiting what counts as Swiss Made in terms of the percentage is likely to be revisited in time.

China's already taking over as the world's number one supplier of electronics, for e.g. though I understand that many Japanese electronics firms have ruled out "made in China" in terms of outsourcing so far as that nation has a perceived image of poor quality, though this is changing as quality controls are being implemented in China, and wages are likewise rising so far as manufacturing facilities are leaving China to go to other places in the world where the cost of production, labour, etc. is cheaper. Thing is, as the public's perception of China changes overtime, by opening the door as such, one wonders whether the magical "Swiss Made" on the dial will in time have the same meaning in the minds of consumers seeking an affordable watch.

Only time will tell as they say but I believe that, over time, in the minds of John Q. or Jane G. consumer looking to buy an affordable watch that "Made in China" is going to become more and more attractive over time.

Cheers.

EDIT; 
Just to add, re: Markets and Competition (from the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH):

"While the Swiss watch industry is present all over the world (it exports nearly 95% of its production), it does not carry equal weight everywhere. *Asia and Oceania take 47%* of Swiss watch exports in value, Europe 33%, the Americas 19% and Africa 1%...and the top fifteen countries represent over 80 % of these exports. With their worldwide reputation for quality and styling, *Swiss watches are not however the only ones to compete for the favours of customers. They have many competitors in the markets, the most serious of these being the Japanese and Hong Kong producers.*" (emphasis added).

In light of these stats, given that Asia and Oceania take almost half of all Swiss watch exports, as i.e. Chinese wages rise, does i.e. Swatch really think down the road that people looking for an affordable watch will have any issue with "Made in China" which very well could become a matter of National Pride--same as it for the Swiss. Just saying ... 

Cheers.


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Thank you for your deal information. I do business myself with china, and import goods to USA, but just because we make changes or improvement or even assemble the goods we don't just magically call it USA Made products; which we can sell for more money. I think the same rule should apply.

Also if anybody knows I like to know how the 51% rule is meagered?

To must important part of the watch is the movement and if that's imported then what is Swiss?

Also from reading other threads I know there is few Indy Swiss movement makers that companies can purchase from?

On a different note, Sea Gull movements are copy of ETA's isn't that similar to buying copy of Rolex or any other fake watch?


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

You're welcome, but we need to be careful here.

Movement is only part of the watch. And even then, are we talking about actual movement manufacture (a very small handful of Swiss companies actually do that) or are we talking encasement with or without a degree of aesthetic finishing (which be the vast majority of Swiss watchmakers, and has been the case historically). That said, and in fact, can get a Swiss ETA starting at about 150 bucks. See, ETA Mechanical Watch Movements A watch is the sum of its component parts, and the movement is only a part of it (and unless we're talking about so-called "good" watchmakers, well, that's a whole other story as that's not the "affordable, decent made" nor is this high(er) end group generally speaking reliant on Swatch/ETA, at all 

With respect to watches, when it comes to import duties and taxation for e.g., has historically gone something like this: Case, Movement (a matter of degree), and Strap (or Bracelet). Mere attachment of a strap or bracelet to a watch and popping a battery in for e.g. does not make it domestic (yes, a watchmaker actually tried that argument to get around importation rules and taxes, and of course lost. I wonder why  Anywho, some nations attach different import duties to the various components as broken down in the 3 categories set out, others simply use a flat-rate depending on the actual origin (in Canada for e.g., it's 5% duty on a German or Swiss made watch provided it is appropriately designated, that is 

Many (if not most) have their cases, bracelets, etc. made for them (typically in i.e. China or elsewhere in Asia), some merely import them and then finish them to varying degrees, whereas others import component parts and fully assemble them, with varying degrees of polish and/or hand-finishing in-house, whereas others, a very very small handful actually make them/do it all in-house. In reality, most are assemblers, not manufactures, and especially true (obviously) of the "affordables" when it comes to Swiss Made.

In terms of the Swiss Made label itself: the way most countries look at what constitutes national origin has always been a matter of international trade and also revenue, duties and customs law, and as is set out in particular under the WTO/TRiPs (Trade in Intellectual Property, designation of national origin). Moreover, there is a law regulating the use of the designation Swiss or Swiss Made which sets out the minimum conditions that must be fulfilled before a watch can be so designated.

If you're interested in reading up more on the Swiss Watchmaking industry (which I think is great!), then a good place to start is with the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry website itself, which will provide you with lots of information and links to other sites, here: Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry FH - Homepage

Cheers.


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## ed21x (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



RainMan 777 said:


> On a different note, Sea Gull movements are copy of ETA's isn't that similar to buying copy of Rolex or any other fake watch?


They aren't copies of ETA's. I don't think ETA has any movements with indirectly driven second hands and stuff like that. The closest ETA-Chinese relationship would be when the plans and machinery for the valjoux 7734 handwinding chrono were sold to Seagull in the 50's, and that movement eventually evolved into the ST19. But there's been quite a bit of change since then, and I know from recent dissections, no parts are interchangeable at this point.


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

^ Hearing quite a bit about Sea-Gull lately (and good to know!).

Regarding the question of movements and IP rights, just thought to add the fact that, once something falls into the public domain, it's free for all to use and/or improve as they see fit, including the original inventor.

_Rolex_ invented the self-winding perpetual movement in 1931, whose patent long ago fell into the public domain; it's the origin of all modern automatic movements. Once a patent protectin ends (invention falls into the public domain), it is free for all to use and/or improve upon the whole world over. The whole point of a patent is to advance the relevant arts and science by encouraging inventors to innovate and invent by giving the inventor exclusive rights in the thing invented (a limited term monopoloy); this, in exchange for an enabling disclosure by the inventor in which that inventor not only brings new knowledge to the world (and useful products or improvements thereto to market) but also, and in so doing, also teaches all of its competitors how to do the very thing invented such that they are ready to tool-up and hit the ground running, competing directly with the inventor in the marketplace the minute that inventor's patent protection expires, thus encouraging competition and benefiting consumers. Remember, patents (limited monopolies) are an exception to the general rule prohibiting monopolies, the quid pro quo being an enabling disclosure from the inventor.

Take as another e.g. that of Sellita. Its SW200 being more or less a clone of the ETA 2824-2 and is perfectly legitimate and proper as ETA has no proprietary rights on the movement. Then there's the SW300 and SW500 movements, not carbon copies but more or less clones (i.e. same dimensions and functions) of the ETA 2892 and 7750, respectively. The ETA 7750 was first introduced around 1974, utilizing a concept first patented in 1941 by watchmaker Henri Jacot-Guyot, I understand. Once something is in the public domain, it is there for all to use and enjoy, in part or in whole, to improve on or otherwise as they see fit, the whole world over, be it Sea-Gull or Sellita, or anyone at all (and including the original inventor), it thereafter being just a matter of know-how and skill.

Cheers.

See, also: 
SW200. Making Sense Of The Sellita SW200 Movement: Same As ETA 2824-2 ; 
SW300/500, Sellita Further Targets ETA With the SW300 And SW500 Watch Movements


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Sea wolf thanks again, you are very insight full and detailed.

What is your input on smaller Swiss movement makers?


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## ed21x (Feb 11, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

is it just me, or does it seem like valjoux 7750 based chronographs are getting more expensive? I can hardly find one retailing below $1000 now,


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



ed21x said:


> is it just me, or does it seem like valjoux 7750 based chronographs are getting more expensive? I can hardly find one retailing below $1000 now,


I saw few sell on eBay for around $600 a bit lower. Some from Omega.


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Rainman,
You are most welcome, and my pleasure. As to smaller Swiss watchmakers, I think those selling i.e. 40,000 watches a year, give or take, such as Patek are and will continue to do just fine 

All fun aside, in terms of the affordables, etc., I honestly believe they have an opportunity here, as many throughout the thread have said. Much of the tech they use is in the public domain as said, much of it being a matter of skill and know-how, as well as resources which, if they cooperate, etc., they would as a group presumably have not only the resources to do so, but also arguably the numbers (sales, etc.) so as to have economies of scale thereby cost-savings per unit, attracting any talent etc. they might need as well. Of course, with the situation as it is right now (i.e., alternative providers plus outsourcing parts from Asia, etc.), business seems to be continuing as usual, at least for now (such that the sky isn't falling, doom-and-gloom doesn't appear to be around the corner, etc.). Now, what happens ultimately at the Regulatory level and whether or not the "Swiss made" 50 rule is changed, and how if so these things might in turn impact on the industry as a whole, if at all, remain to be seen, if indeed such things happen. However, the small Swiss makers appear to be quite resilient. Bouncing back from the whole quartz crisis of yesteryear, and surving this i.e. ETA situation as well. Lots of options for them to explore, and I for one am glad that there's some serious competition (though in saying this, I also would like to make it known that I have nothing against ETA at all, their movements to be found in some of my favourite watches among my collection in fact, it's just that I am a firm believer in competition which ultimately benefits consumers in terms of prices and choice). Do I believe the 50 rule will heat up? Yes. How the small Swiss makers react, well, they have options which I trust they are putting their minds to, just in case 

Speaking of prices, re: ETA/Val. 7750, you know, for that you can get not just a movement, but also an entire watch. Yeah, some of the prices I see on Ebay sometimes make me shake my head, too (not that I buy a lot on there, but I do from time to time like to see what's out there, too, this is true). Saw a retired Rolex movement for e.g. being offered by one seller "as is" for more or less the same price as a pre-owned Rolex watch containing that movement, with the watch being serviced and coming with a warranty, too. Wonder if some on Ebay really know just how many watches there are out there, or what is contained in what. Can't blame them I guess for trying to capitalize on the whole ETA thing; but seriously, why on earth would one buy a movement when you can buy the whole watch (such as a pre-owned Hamilton or two!) for that price. Seriously, competition is a good thing, as is comparison shopping, I think. 

Cheers


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## kapurkk (Jun 25, 2010)

What is with the dates on this forum - Its 2012 and all the recent posts show 2006 ???


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

Welcome to WUS, Kapurkk. 
What a great thread have you've elected to start upon! Loads of information in this one, along with a couple of others that are related/connected hereto, where you'll learn tons (and I mean tons!) about the watch industry in general as well as that of the ETA/Swatch Group in particular so far as the announcement by Swatch was first made back in 2006, making other announcements subsequently since, such that theres' been adjustment by the industry over this entire period, which adjustment continues (as to be expected, it being a global economy and the Swiss have competitors, particularly from Japan and Hong Kong). Should you be interested in going behind the scenes/learning more about the overall industry (business models, etc.), this thread and a couple of others which are connected hereto will provide you with a ton of information, as well as an enlighted discussion about the changes/adjustments in real-time, as they unfold.

Cheers.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Hong Kong has been mentioned several times in this thread, but which movements are being made there?


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

Janne,
The Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH) itself refers to stiff competition "for the favours of customers (having) many competitors in the markets, the most serious of these being the Japanese and Hong Kong producers." In terms of referring to "Hong Kong" producers, there's Sea-Gull with offices in Hong Kong, but understand actual facilities (production and administration) near Tianjin Airport. In addition, there's the large Hong Kong jewelry retail group Chai Tai Fook which took over hundreds of watch stores and two manufacturing facilities of Peace Mark (Holding) Ltd. in 2008 (Peacemark, a Hong Kong watchmaker and retailer apparently had a deal with Tourneau to open a chain of stores in China, and which had also bought out STM Holdings (Soprod, SFT and Indtecbut), but Peacemark went bankrupt, selling Soprod to the Festina Group (Spain)]. See, for e.g.: Chow Tai Fook Presses On With Hong Kong Listing - WSJ.com (about Chai Tai Fook, world's largest jeweler according to the Wall Street Journal); see also HH Journal: STM Holding, an industrial saga on the road to China - The expert's view - Points of view - news from the world of watchmaking and luxury watches - Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie (about STM, background, 2007).

Cheers.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Janne said:


> Hong Kong has been mentioned several times in this thread, but which movements are being made there?


'Hong Kong' in this context just means mainland China. It is the Swiss perspective. Because the Swiss have long done business with the watch industry in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong middlemen are the lens through which the Swiss currently see the true movement manufacturers on the mainland.

To the best of my knowledge, no mechanical watch movements have ever been produced in their entirety in Hong Kong, they have always been assembled from bought-in ebauches from Switzerland, mainland China, Japan or Russia.


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## jinefly (May 11, 2012)

I'm not sure if the European market is interested in Ger-panese watches.
For me Junghans still has a bad reputation. The brand has really been destroyed by the management. And this seems to be the next step.


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## akasnowmaaan (Jan 15, 2012)

jinefly said:


> For me Junghans still has a bad reputation. The brand has really been destroyed by the management. And this seems to be the next step.


How? I was really interested in their radio-controlled line, they seem to be the most stylish available. Are you recommending me to stay away?


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

Just thought to update everybody, as to the situation regarding the matter of the Swatch before the Swiss regulators. The regulators extended by a year the provisional measures so as to give them more time to complete their investigation before handing down a decision. See,Swiss Competition Body Prolongs Measures on Swatch Movements - Businessweek .

In other words, the "status quo" as it currently stands will be maintained through 2013.

Cheers.


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks again for the update.


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## HJR (Jun 30, 2009)

I am very much poorly informed on this topic and have enjoyed reading through this thread. 

My one observation as a consumer is that I think that speciality complications are the ones that are seeing less of on the market. For example, GMT functions have become produced less and less it appears. For mid-range automatic movements, the ETA 2893-2 stills appears to be the only option and a number of smaller watchmakers have dropped or not produced GMT models.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

HJR said:


> I am very much poorly informed on this topic and have enjoyed reading through this thread.
> 
> My one observation as a consumer is that I think that speciality complications are the ones that are seeing less of on the market. For example, GMT functions have become produced less and less it appears. For mid-range automatic movements, the ETA 2893-2 stills appears to be the only option and a number of smaller watchmakers have dropped or not produced GMT models.


When you say 'only option' I presume you mean for Swiss watches. It might be worth keeping your eyes open for GMTs as a couple of the newer Swiss movement assemblers are now using Chinese ebauches of calibres for which GMT function is available. It is only a matter of time before we see more 'Swiss Made' automatic GMT watches, if the market demand is there.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Sea-Wolf said:


> Just thought to update everybody, as to the situation regarding the matter of the Swatch before the Swiss regulators. The regulators extended by a year the provisional measures so as to give them more time to complete their investigation before handing down a decision. See,Swiss Competition Body Prolongs Measures on Swatch Movements - Businessweek .
> 
> In other words, the "status quo" as it currently stands will be maintained through 2013.
> 
> Cheers.


Going to be interesting to see which Swiss brands take advantage of that extra year to develop movements of their own.


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## HJR (Jun 30, 2009)

Chascomm, you are correct, I meant currently for swiss watches. Regarding future GMT functions, there has been a rumor for a little while that Sellita is about to have, but nothing yet. I for one look forward to more "affordable" swiss movements come out.



Chascomm said:


> When you say 'only option' I presume you mean for Swiss watches. It might be worth keeping your eyes open for GMTs as a couple of the newer Swiss movement assemblers are now using Chinese ebauches of calibres for which GMT function is available. It is only a matter of time before we see more 'Swiss Made' automatic GMT watches, if the market demand is there.


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## eliz (Apr 5, 2012)

went to a local AD awhile ago and had a little chat with the guys. 
was being informed that prices of watches with current ETA movements will be pushed up by at least 5% all the way till a whooping 20% due to this implementation by Swatch.
can anyone confirm if its a DEFINITE that Swatch will stop providing ETAs to 3rd parties or are these all still wild guesses?


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

Eliz, 
Swatch as noted is a consortium of various companies, consisting not only of 19-ish "brands" but also movement, parts and component makers (ETA, Nivarox/FAR, etc.) that was put together basically by Swiss bankers (to save their investments) with the approval of the Swiss regulators (to save all those Swiss jobs) on account of the fact that the undertakings at the time were basically all bankrupt on account of the "quartz crisis" as we know. In doing so, the whole thing was done as such with the "Swiss way" of then doing things at the time--namely, that the Swiss industry as such was based around the guiding principle that manufacturers were either movement makers -OR- watchmakers, but not both (with very few as in a small handful actually doing both, and how it has been historically speaking also, as said). 

Despite this, Swatch which is the world's number one global luxury brand (watch, jewelry and perfume, etc.; Richemont Group being number 2) is seeking greater autonomy to decide sales of movements and parts -and- at what prices to charge, being matters currently before the Swiss regulators to ultimately determine. The regulators in the meantime have to date only approved (and are extending through 2013) the provisional measures in order to complete their investigations into the matter, as said. 

Please read through the thread and you'll see how it is that, in the meantime, the market has more than responded to this reduction already, and with what seems to be a rather seamless transaction thus far in fact, such that nobody is out of business or left out in the cold, etc. Then again, basic economics teaches us that where there is demand supply always follows (i.e., Selitta, Sea-gull, Soprod, and even Seiko, etc.). That said and notwithstanding, Swatch is a regulated ("dominant") entity so far as it does supply movements and parts to a many other Swiss makers--i.e., the "affordables" in particular, who at the very least have another full year as per the provisional measures, etc. Swatch has said it no longer wants to be a supermarket at such, but it is and remains a regulated undertaking as said. To date (it bears repeating): the approval in terms of reduction stems from provisional measures of the regulators pending their ultimate decision of the issues, to be based on a thorough investigation of the facts, which measures have been extended for another year (through 2013) to allow the regulators to complete their investigations proper before handing down their final decision. The measures once again are as follows: reduction of deliveries of movements to non-Swatch members by a mere 15 percent of 2010 levels and deliveries of components that make up movements by a mere 5 percent. 

In other words, the answer to your question is a resounding "NO" . Even if the regulators should approve Swatch' request, nothing if at all will happen over night but done in incremental steps over time, if indeed it is done at all. Meantime, we must wait for the ultimate decision of the regulators who are investigating this as said, with provisional measures remaining in full force and extended as such in the meantime. Keeping in mind also (and always) that supply follows demand. So no need to panic and certainly not at this time, I think. 

(p.s. You're welcome, Rainman et al. Please know that it is my pleasure to keep the community informed where I can. 

Cheers


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## eliz (Apr 5, 2012)

Sea-Wolf said:


> Eliz,
> Swatch as noted is a consortium of various companies, consisting not only of 19-ish "brands" but also movement, parts and component makers (ETA, Nivarox/FAR, etc.) that was put together basically by Swiss bankers (to save their investments) with the approval of the Swiss regulators (to save all those Swiss jobs) on account of the fact that the undertakings at the time were basically all bankrupt on account of the "quartz crisis" as we know. In doing so, the whole thing was done as such with the "Swiss way" of then doing things at the time--namely, that the Swiss industry as such was based around the guiding principle that manufacturers were either movement makers -OR- watchmakers, but not both (with very few as in a small handful actually doing both, and how it has been historically speaking also, as said).
> 
> Despite this, Swatch which is the world's number one global luxury brand (watch, jewelry and perfume, etc.; Richemont Group being number 2) is seeking greater autonomy to decide sales of movements and parts -and- at what prices to charge, being matters currently before the Swiss regulators to ultimately determine. The regulators in the meantime have to date only approved (and are extending through 2013) the provisional measures in order to complete their investigations into the matter, as said.
> ...


oh wow

Thanks for taking out the time to provide such a well-informed post to enlighten someone new to the watch scene like myself.
I deeply appreciate the effort.

Alas, in short.. its right to say that Swatch has been gradually decreasing its supply for their ETA movement n movement parts altogether, since a few years back and with pending decisions by the panel to decide if supplies of the ETA movement will be put to a halt to third parties from then on.

This seems to be one of the biggest hoo-haas in the watch world since I don't know when and I can only hope any drastic measures will only be put in place after careful thoughts by the panel to aid smaller watch companies who depend on the ETAs to surive..


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## RainMan 777 (Mar 26, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Like always sea wolf thank you,

To me what is a bit surprising is ETA will be forfeiting its market share for no good reason at least to me, since it's is subsidery company to Swatch which you would think needs to make profit by increasing maker share. sooner or later one or more movement companies will enjoy the free gift that ETA is sending there way. I hope they will realize the mistake like HP did buying Palm and making Tablets close to a 3 billion lose.

To me ETA set the standard for watch movement and for it not provide movement is disappointment .

Take care,


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

Sea-wolf,

Just catching up to this and your post above. Thanks for it and the link to the Bloomberg Businessweek update.

This part got my attention:



BloombergBusinessweek said:


> The owner of the Omega brand has been required to supply movements to third parties because of its dominant position.


Does anyone here know any more about this? The prospect of seeing Omega 2500C, 8500, and 9300 movements made available to smaller independent watchmakers is compelling.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

marchone said:


> Sea-wolf,
> 
> Just catching up to this and your post above. Thanks for it and the link to the Bloomberg Businessweek update.
> 
> ...


Swatch Group is the owner of the Omega brand. Their movement manufacturing enterprise is ETA. What is being said here is that ETA are required to continue supplying movements outside the Swatch Group. It has nothing to do with Omega movements.


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

You're very welcome, and my pleasure. As soon as the decision comes down, I'll update the thread accordingly.

As to the Co-axial escapement (made by ETA for Omega), that was based on Daniels' patent which has since expired, thus falling into the public domain (among other things meaning that everyone is now free to tool up and make it should they so choose, or do with it as they please, including Swatch/ETA). To the extent that Swatch/ETA owns any improvement patents not yet expired on the original, however, then Swatch/ETA would own the exclusive right(s) to the improvement patents thereon, to the extent of those patented improvements (but not the underlying thing so improved), since patents by definition give the inventor qua patent owner exclusive rights in the thing patented. (Note: patent rights are an exception to the competition rules).

We shall have to wait to see what the decision ultimately holds, but I doubt Swatch/ETA would provide a co-ax to a smaller firm for the asking, since they make it exclusively for Omega's use, and would fight it tooth and nail I think to avoid doing anything but, in light of the fact they're seeking permission to cut "standard" if you will ETA movements and parts, etc. (Note: Swatch/ETA basically wants more discretion to decide to whom and what it should sell, and at what price--all matters pending a decision). That said, such independent watchmakers (and everyone else) are free to make and use everything in the public domain of course, into which patented tech falls the instant the patent-protection period ends. 

(Would be cool though, I agree! And a very good question... 

Cheers.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

Chascomm said:


> Swatch Group is the owner of the Omega brand. Their movement manufacturing enterprise is ETA. What is being said here is that ETA are required to continue supplying movements outside the Swatch Group. It has nothing to do with Omega movements.


I stand corrected. I read the sentence incorrectly.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

marchone said:


> I stand corrected. I read the sentence incorrectly.


Welcome to the higher levels of WISdom (or should that be WUSdom?) in which you know more than the writers of watch related stories in the general press. 

Unlike yourself, your average journo has only limited 'mental bandwidth' available for watch info; and he must present what he knows in a way that connects with his general (not watch-obsessed) audience. The problem for people like us is in reading too much into a news story when we presume (because it is 'news') that it is telling us something we don't already know.


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## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

Thanks for the out but I place blame squarely on Evelyn Woods's speedreading method resulting in 90% comprehension of the written page. ;-)


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## lysanderxiii (Oct 4, 2006)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



RainMan 777 said:


> Like always sea wolf thank you,
> 
> To me what is a bit surprising is ETA will be forfeiting its market share for no good reason at least to me, since it's is subsidery company to Swatch which you would think needs to make profit by increasing maker share. sooner or later one or more movement companies will enjoy the free gift that ETA is sending there way. I hope they will realize the mistake like HP did buying Palm and making Tablets close to a 3 billion lose.
> 
> ...


Forfeiting? No.

Voluntarily abandoning a less profitable market sector? Yes.

Why don't Swiss makers manufacture $10 and $15 dollar watches? They could, most of the assembly of quartz watches is automated, so the Swiss labor cost would not be that much higher that China.

Last year China exported* 682 million watches at an average price of CHF 5.50 (wholesale price), that's a nice market, why aren't the Swiss fighting for a good chunk of it?

Because, the profit margin of luxury watches is higher, much higher. Also last year, Switzerland exported 29.8 million watches, a mere 4% of the Chinese volume, but Swiss revenues were 21.8 billion CHF, over 8 times more than China's watch revenue. More money, less work.

The same goes for ETA. In 2011, Switzerland movement exports were just under a quarter of the watch exports at nearly 7 million movements, yet took in 1.25% of the revenue.

It seems to me if I could translate 10% of the watch movements to watches (CHF 425,600,000 added revenues), and abandoned the remaining 90% of the movements (CHF 201,600,000 lost revenue), I would still come out ahead.....

Granted these figures are for the whole Swiss watch industry, but a large percentage of the movements were from ETA, so the exact numbers are slightly lower, it doesn't change the underlining principle.
_________________________
* this does not count watches made and sold within manufacturing country.


----------



## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

This just posted in another thread on WUS.

Swatch approved to reduce movements supply


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



marchone said:


> This just posted in another thread on WUS.
> 
> Swatch approved to reduce movements supply


Probably the most anti-climatic news in the entire watch industry. Hayek snaps his fingers, and the Swiss government barks in compliance. :roll:


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Thanks, Marchone. Just came here to report on the latest development, but see you beat me to the news on Dow wires. 

What is being reported is yet another tentative agreement (which I have not yet myself reviewed) as reached between Swatch and the Regulators, pending industry comment and response. Swatch/ETA as a dominant entity cannot unilaterally reduce supplies, movements without regulatory approval as said, and all in the industry therefore have time to respond, such that we can expect further negotiations until such time as a final agreement is either reached and approved (voluntary) -OR- a final decision (regulatory) is handed down.

Under the alleged draft agreement with the Swiss regulators (COMCO), Swatch would tentatively be able to reduce the level of movements to 70% of 2010 levels by 2014/15; 50% by 2016-17 and 30% in 2018/19. The levels of other components that Swatch must supply will be gradually reduced to 30% of 2010 levels by 2023. As it relates to Nivarox (springs), they will be reduced gradually, however, dropping by 70% by the year 2023. (All reductions are based on 2010 levels). A final outcome either way is expected by the end of the year.

BTW, this draft agreement as tentatively approved and circulated for comment and response to industry gives us some indication where COMCO is at (i.e., a continued weaning period, as discussed), and it must be remembered that, where possible, competition regulators generally prefer industry-based solutions that make market sense (voluntary agreements as opposed to regulatory decisions, though decisions of course where solutions cannot be arrived at voluntarily or where they make no market sense). Again, a final outcome is on the horizon, expected at the end of the year either way.


----------



## marchone (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Hayek snaps his fingers, and the Swiss government barks in compliance.


Sounds more like the smartest guy in the room to me.


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



marchone said:


> Sounds more like the smartest guy in the room to me.


Perhaps it was this one or another, similar, topic. But I pointed out in detail why this idea is going to horribly back-fire in the end.

Basically, none of the micro brands are going to go away. They'll find a way to stay in business. With Sellita and the other non Swatch Group movement makers being too small to take up the hole which will be left by ETA's very slow but eventual departure, the micro brands will have no choice but to go to Seiko or Citizen to stay in business. And since the Japanese know how to make quality movements, those micro brands will just quietly drop the words "Swiss-Made" from the dials of their watches.

The bigger brands that still use ETA movements? They're big enough to afford the expenses associated with R&D. Then, they'll simply advertise their new in-house movements while increasing prices to help pay for R&D. Or, perhaps we'll see another one take a page out of TAG Heuer's book and simply buy the rights to an older movement from a competitor. Not knocking TAG Heuer for taking the easy road. Plus, Seiko knows how to make very good mechanical movements. So with TAG Heuer, it worked out well.

Old situation: Competitors bought ETA movements from the Swatch Group. SG made a nice profit of supplying ETA movements to the competition.

New situation: Competitors now buy their movements from mainly Seiko or Citizen. SG not only losses out on the profits it used to make on selling ETA movements. But two of their biggest competitors now get those profits. Plus, none of the micro brands go out of business. None of the big name competitors go out of business. All of your competitors stay in business. Two of your biggest ones make more money, while your company losses out on what used to be a segment of your annual profits that were guaranteed.

Smartest guy in the room? Maybe if that room was located in a mental ward. If I was the CEO of Seiko or Citizen I'd sent Hayek a giant gift basket with a "Thank You" note attached.


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Interesting scenario, but here is another: ;-)

Sellita and other substitutes already exist, many ETA movements and parts long in the public domain (no patent protection, there for any and all to use, modify, etc. as they want). Problem as I saw it was that few out there actually have the resources (capital, not to mention know-how) to make springs, even though they've been in the public domain for eons as discussed above. There are alternate suppliers, but not presently at the level which would be needed to replace Nivarox if reduced to i.e. 30-percent of 2010 levels. (This was my own particular concern, but to the extent that supplies will be reduced very gradually over time, and which period of transition can always be revisited later on if the case need be, I am not particularly concerned as this is plenty of time for others to get together and pool their resources to do for themselves and/or for other suppliers to ram up production, with more no doubt coming into the game--where there is demand supply always follows). Either way, by then, the new and improved springs out on the market presently (albeit currently exclusive to their manufacturers/inventors, protected by patents, such as Silicon, Parachrom and therefore not available to anyone outside their respective manufacturers qua inventors of course) will become available for others to make so far as the patent period by then have or be on the verge of expiring. There is also a Rolex patent regarding the manufacture of Parachrom ("method of manufacture") that will likewise run its natural course and fall into the public domain as well, eventually and in turn making it more cost-effective for industry players around the world to make springs down the road as soon as the patent period on that method of manufacture expires (et voila, lots of springs, assuming know-how). All depends thus on the timing, but the market seems well-poised to be able to respond (what do you want to bet that industry will request an extension of the transition period as now proposed, so as to at least dove-tail with the timing of such or other relevant patents, the clock on which is counting down? Wouldn't surprise me at all. 

Yes, my cyrstal ball tells me that prices will no doubt go up all across the board, we're already seeing this as some (finally) learn how to make a movement for themselves in the first place. That said, more choice which is a good thing, yes? Others, such as say Breitling who are independent and not part thus of any group, although its new in-house movements are very well done, will no doubt continue to get supplies from ETA no problem, as no doubt will that other group Richemont--though it may come at a higher cost which no doubt will be passed on to consumers. [Note: Swatch/ETA in turn will be able to "cherry pick" among its customers, supplying those whom it believes are good for the Swiss label, like those having a history of contributing to the watchmaker's art qua watchmaker (as opposed to those who do not), such that "Swiss" will continue to mean something, particularly when it comes to luxury watches, which I don't really see changing any time soon in the minds of consumers.  . This, especially if content requirements as to what it takes to get "Swiss" on the dial is raised, which I also believe is inevitable. More than likely, old(er) ETA movements will be retired. Substitutes such as Sellita's will continue to be available, though. There are always substitutes.

Problem is, if the content rules change, where are all these so-called new highly skilled watchmakers and technicians supposed to come from so as to permit watchmakers to comply with any such heightened rules? This, I honestly don't know. Unemployment levels in Switzerland are quite low (3%), with the watchmaking schools and apprenticeship programs not exactly bursting with students either, such that there's insufficient talent to replace those lost by retirement, etc. as it is in most places around the globe. Suppose manufacturers could all compete to hire the lady at the local cafe and the man sweeping up after her, offering incentives for them to go to watchmaking school, but seriously, I just don't know where all this extra talent is supposed to come from. [Unless it's from smaller makers who are unable and/or refuse to adjust, possibly meaning more consolidation in the industry if even in the form of loosely formed groups (sharing resources by resource pooling), with the potential for the loss of some, but even so. Nice to know no talent will be left behind, though. :-d ]

All fun aside, and seriously, costs of luxury/prestige watches will continue to go up. (Yes, this is sad but I'm far more worried about the rising cost of housing and basic living costs in most G-7/OECD nations; the competition for land use, oil, precious metals and other base materials, etc. drives up the cost of everything, particularly when it comes to the cost of land; this, not to mention the Swiss living cost and corresponding cost of labour). Will consumers, however, continue to have choice from different makers at various price points? You bet. So long as there is demand, supply always follows.

Meantime, smart to offer up a voluntary settlement before the "heavy-hammer" of the regulators comes down? I think so. Let's see what the rest of the industry has to say about it, having the right to respond as mentioned, and which I believe will result in further negotiations so that the industry might be able to sort it for themselves (else it will be decided by means of a decision, as said). Either way, once "humpty dumpty" is built, I am not quite sure how better to break it all up other than slowly, over time, with a lot of weaning and regulatory oversight. Restoring market competition is a good thing, no? 

Cheers


----------



## Admira (May 20, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

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----------



## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Admira said:


> http://www.mhvj.ch
> Dubois Dépraz - Entreprise indpendante au service des grandes marques
> CLARO WATCH :: WELCOME TO OUR WEBSITE
> http://www.durowe.com
> ...


Well said.


----------



## Abbaew (Jan 12, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

In my opinion, the most important factor for this circumstance is the customers . Can they accept the movement changing of their favorite micro brands? if the answer is " yes " it's not the matter to worry about this change. But, if the answer is "no" I don't know what will happen. Finding the source of movement is not the big problem as how can make their customer believe in this changing.
best regard.


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## Ovalteenie (May 4, 2010)

What will this mean for servicing of non-Swatch Group watches with ETA movements? Will independent watchmakers still be able to service them with genuine ETA parts?


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## jtstav (Jul 11, 2010)

Ovalteenie said:


> What will this mean for servicing of non-Swatch Group watches with ETA movements? Will independent watchmakers still be able to service them with genuine ETA parts?


Servicing with genuine parts is iffy. There will probably be sufficient supply of spare parts for some time. Once that supply dwindles I imagine parts will be sourced from brands like Sellita and Sea-Gull (Who now make some ETA copies). A good watchmaker can make his own parts too so I highly doubt this will translate into some famine like situation of ETA parts. I'm not worrying about it.


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## johnj (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Basically, none of the micro brands are going to go away. They'll find a way to stay in business. With Sellita and the other non Swatch Group movement makers being too small to take up the hole which will be left by ETA's very slow but eventual departure, the micro brands will have no choice but to go to Seiko or Citizen to stay in business. And since the Japanese know how to make quality movements, those micro brands will just quietly drop the words "Swiss-Made" from the dials of their watches.


I don't think it will backfire as soon as you indicate. Seiko and Citizen do make remarkably good movements, but that won't eliminate the Swiss brand cache. When people want a Swiss watch, they want a Swiss watch. I believe at first, it will hurt sales of Swiss watch makers that rely exclusively on ETA, and Swatch will see their profits increase due to people purchasing more of their brands as an alternative. Eventually companies like Sellita will make incremental improvements in their movements and manufacturing capabilities. Someday they will become the new desired Swiss movement. Swatch may already see this happening whether they stop selling their ETA movements or not. Part of Swatch's business plan may be to capture some short term market gains before this inevitably occurs. And by short term I mean several years.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



johnj said:


> I don't think it will backfire as soon as you indicate. Seiko and Citizen do make remarkably good movements, but that won't eliminate the Swiss brand cache. When people want a Swiss watch, they want a Swiss watch. I believe at first, it will hurt sales of Swiss watch makers that rely exclusively on ETA, and Swatch will see their profits increase due to people purchasing more of their brands as an alternative. Eventually companies like Sellita will make incremental improvements in their movements and manufacturing capabilities. Someday they will become the new desired Swiss movement. Swatch may already see this happening whether they stop selling their ETA movements or not. Part of Swatch's business plan may be to capture some short term market gains before this inevitably occurs. And by short term I mean several years.


I don't see that happening. Some of the well-established Swiss brands (independent of S.G.) are already taking the needed steps. Oris for example is now using Sellita movements in its range of timepieces. Expect other brands to do what TAG Heuer did when it wanted a good in-house movement. Buy one from Seiko or Citizen, have it made in house, keep the "Swiss Made" lettering on the dial. Let's face it, with that ridiculous 51% rule in effect for a watch to legally be called "Swiss Made;" there's a good chance that the micro brands will find a way of using alternative movements and keeping Swiss Made on their dials after all. Not as though the standards are strict or stringent. Not when the law is 51%.

S.G. just handed the Japanese brands a machine to basically print money. Awhile back, there was a topic about Citizen trying to set up shop inside the country. The plant would produce Miyota movements. Thus, they would be Swiss made movements. Available to any micro brand that wants them.

If I was the CEO of Seiko or Citizen, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank.


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## Levelman (Oct 6, 2012)

SG has been "threatening" this for years. And while they have inarguably reduced the number of movements sold outside their group, I seriously doubt they will ever really end such a profitable practice. 
I think what they are doing is limiting availability to smaller "grey" brand companies in order to curtail the sale of genuine ETA movements in replica watches. 
The move by many companies to Sellita is primarily based on Sellita making a virtual clone of the ETA 2824-2 movement and selling it (still Swiss made) cheaper than ETA. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Levelman said:


> . . . The move by many companies to Sellita is primarily based on Sellita making a virtual clone of the ETA 2824-2 movement and selling it (still Swiss made) cheaper than ETA.


Honestly, bit tough to refer to Sellita's offerings as "clones" of ETA movements. Sellita used to be a sub-contractor for ETA. There are a ton of watches floating around out there with ETA movements inside that were actually assembled by Sellita. There were some early teething problems when Sellita first made their movements available after the sub-contracting ended. But those have been resolved.


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## Levelman (Oct 6, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Honestly, bit tough to refer to Sellita's offerings as "clones" of ETA movements. Sellita used to be a sub-contractor for ETA. There are a ton of watches floating around out there with ETA movements inside that were actually assembled by Sellita. There were some early teething problems when Sellita first made their movements available after the sub-contracting ended. But those have been resolved.


Agreed. When Sellita stopped making ETA movements, they had to change a few things - small things - in order to make their own movements and not infringe on the ETA patents. It took a few tries, but the SW200 movement has really been perfected. The geometry and almost every single part is compatible with the ETA 2924-2. 
Now that they finally got it right, and the movement has proven to be uber-reliable, many watch makers are seing the wisdom of saving a little money and the added bonus of getting out from under the rather sizeable thumb of the SG.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Best part is with a Sellita movement inside, you can get your non-S.G. brand watch serviced properly years down the road when it needs it. 

No need to pay a giant premium for an independent watchmaker to scrounge up a needed ETA part. You're not forced to buy a Swatch Group brand just to get such parts for a reasonable price, when it's time for servicing or repairs.


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## johnj (Apr 13, 2006)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Buy one from Seiko or Citizen, have it made in house, keep the "Swiss Made" lettering on the dial. Let's face it, with that ridiculous 51% rule in effect for a watch to legally be called "Swiss Made;" there's a good chance that the micro brands will find a way of using alternative movements and keeping Swiss Made on their dials after all. Not as though the standards are strict or stringent. Not when the law is 51%.


If you are correct, it sounds like watches that were made with a 100% ETA Swiss designed and built movement will command a premium with collectors.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Perhaps. But a small one at best. At least for the near future anyway.


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## drx86 (Apr 20, 2012)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Ok, so i started reading here but to be honest i still do not fully comprehend what exactly is going to change, wich brands are going to be affected and wich not. What effect it will have on brands like Tissot, Hamilton, Mido, Fortis ect. Is there a short summery somewhere wich explains everything?


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



drx86 said:


> Ok, so i started reading here but to be honest i still do not fully comprehend what exactly is going to change, wich brands are going to be affected and wich not. What effect it will have on brands like Tissot, Hamilton, Mido, Fortis ect. Is there a short summery somewhere wich explains everything?


Huge number of brands rely on ETA for the movements inside their watches. ETA is part of the giant monopoly known as the Swatch Group. Hayek Jr. is the Big Cheese in charge of that giant monopoly. He no longer wants ETA to supply any brand outside of the SG with movements. (Something that ETA has been doing for a very, very, long time. So long in fact that it became an industry norm for "Swiss-Made" watch brands.) Hayek would prefer cutting off the supply immediately. But he needs permission from the Swiss government before he can do that. Hayek gets his way when it comes to dealing with the Swiss government. He just does. It's basically a ridiculous formality. In order for the Swiss government to Save Face, and not _appear_ as though they bend over backwards for Hayek whenever he snaps his fingers; he was asked to slowly diminish the supply of ETA movements to those brands outside the SG, instead of cutting off the supply entirely and immediately. Hayek agreed to this. And we are currently in the very early stages of the diminishment. Brands outside of the SG have no choice but to turn to other movement makers. All of the independent makers currently in the nation, are small. This presents a problem with regards to supply. Some brands will still be able to get quality Swiss-made movements. (Namely the big brands out there.) Some won't. Doesn't mean they'll go out of business though. Both Japanese and Chinese companies exist that make quality watch movements. (Expect their profits to significantly go up in the next few years thanks to Hayeks decision to cut off the supply of ETA movements to non-SG brands.)

Swatch group brands will not be effected at all as they will continue to have access to ETA movements.

Tissot, Hamilton, and Mido are SG brands. For them, it will be business as usual. Business as usual too for all brands that already use Japanese or Chinese movements in their watches. Those brands outside of the SG, especially the micro brands, will have to find a new source for movements to put inside their watches. Oris, for example, has decided to go with Sellita and thus remain "Swiss-Made." Expect the micro brands to realistically turn to Japanese and Chinese movements in order to stay in business. These are the brands that can't remotely afford to make their own in-house movements. Both in terms of money and time. Costs less, and is just faster to buy movements from the Japanese and Chinese. Both of which are more than willing to sell to brands that used to rely solely on ETA for movements.

Thus, Hayek's decision will horribly back-fire as competing watch brands such as Seiko, Citizen, and Sea-Gull will in the near future enjoy huge profits as the new industry norm will change. With Hayek yanking ETA, ETA's previous profits from non-SG brands will now be zero dollars. Picture a pie. When it comes to non-SG brands buying movements to put in their watches, it used to be that the independent Swiss brands along with the Chinese ones received very thin slices. (The type that an anorexic Supermodel might eat.) The Japanese brands received slightly bigger slices in comparison. Still, not very impressive. ETA got the rest! A huge massive piece that was nearly the entire pie. With ETA out of the picture, those movement suppliers now have the rest of that massive piece of the pie to carve up amongst themselves. Record profits for everyone! Those non-SG brands still need movements. They want to stay in business. They're not going to just pack up and leave. Why? Simply because the big kid on the block doesn't want to play ball with them anymore and takes his equipment home? The others still want to play. They'll continue to do that. They'll just get what they need from someone else. Hayek can pack up his gear and equipment and head on home. Everyone left on the playing field will be just fine without him. They'll get what they need to continue playing, from someone else.


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## drx86 (Apr 20, 2012)

Thank you! That explains a lot! Is this going to have an impact on the price of swiss made watches? As they become more "rare" when SG stops supplying micro brands. 

The micro brands themself are going to need to invest in getting new movements so i guess those prices will go up too.

I never heared of mister Hayek before, i've never seen him and never will but i know for a fact that i don't like that man!


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

drx86 said:


> Thank you! That explains a lot! Is this going to have an impact on the price of swiss made watches? As they become more "rare" when SG stops supplying micro brands.


No, not really. Keep in mind those micro brands really aren't Swiss. Not really. You see, the legal definition for a watch being "Swiss-Made" is absolutely ridiculous. Legally speaking, a watch only needs 51% of its parts assembled in that nation for a brand to be able to put the words "Swiss-Made" on the bottom of their dials. That 51% rule was easily satisfied by simply buying ready-made ETA movements from the Swatch Group, and then placing them inside of the cases.

Expect the micro brands to very quietly drop the words in small lettering of "Swiss-Made" from their dials. Watch collectors know the difference between real Swiss brands, and those who are such in name only.



> The micro brands themselves are going to need to invest in getting new movements so I guess those prices will go up too.


Seiko already has movements for sale. So does Citizen. Citizen's Miyota movement is quite good. I predict quite a few micro brands will go with the Miyota. It stacks up very well against ETAs common as dirt 2824 movement.

There are always price increases in the watch world. But among micro brands, I don't see a huge spike coming up soon due to the transition from ETA to (for example) Miyota movements.


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## Medphred (May 29, 2011)

drx86 said:


> I never heared of mister Hayek before, i've never seen him and never will but i know for a fact that i don't like that man!


I don't think he will be offended ... he passed away in 2010.

He actually played a major role in saving the Swiss watch industry during the quartz revolution so if you're a watch fan there are reasons to like him. He also played a role in the creation of the Smartcar.

Personally I don't have a problem with Swatch deciding that they don't want to supply movements to competitive brands. Imagine if Mercedes created most of the engines in the auto industry and then supplied them to rivals like Audi and BMW? They'd insist that Audi, BMW, etc develop their own engines. Swatch has given everyone several years heads up of their intentions so that other companies can step up to fill the void. Ultimately I believe this make for a healthier industry.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Medphred said:


> I don't think he will be offended ... he passed away in 2010.


Not Hayek Sr., Hayek Jr.

It's true that Sr. saved the Swiss watch industry from the Japanese / Quartz revolution of the 1970's. Back then, consolidation was necessary for the survival of many traditional Swiss brands that simply refused to take the Japanese seriously until it was almost too late. But that era has been over for a long time now. The monopoly should have been broken up years ago.

Honestly, I'm glad that Hayek Sr. saved many of those respected Swiss brands from extinction. Ironically though he did it by creating the Swatch brand. A brand that sold cheap, mostly comical-looking, quartz timepieces as fashion accessories to teenagers. (Now that's the very definition of ironic.) Swatch was so successful that the monopoly soon became named after it.

Lots of respect for Hayek Sr.

Hayek Jr. . . . Not so much. (To put it mildly.)


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## codewheeney (Aug 2, 2012)

Long time listener, first time caller to WUS here.

I was just reading in the October 2012 WatchTime about Festina Group's plans to increase movement and parts to fill the gap left by ETA (via their Soprod and MHVJ subsidiaries). It seems like the rates at which Swatch will be reducing supply, from here, gives Festina a pretty good chance to fill in that void. Festina are apparently being pretty aggressive in attempting to increase capacity, according to the article in WatchTime.

I'm new to all this, too, so I'd appreciate hearing opinions on this (I didn't find much searching this thread about Soprod and MHVJ).

JC


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## James Haury (Apr 10, 2008)

This is a great opportunity for the Chinese.


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## dstella (Oct 7, 2011)

How is Eterna (owned by a Chinese concern) now offering 2824-2 equipped watches? See the 1948 model.

D


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## Phrenzy (Nov 20, 2012)

Anyone know what Raymond weil is planning to do movement wise? So much of their cache comes from being a family owned swiss firm that I can't see them using Japanese or Chinese movements...


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## ancreanchor (Aug 4, 2012)

James Haury said:


> This is a great opportunity for the Chinese.


I'd doubt it; "swiss made" still has an allure to it. Part of what makes ETA so great is that the movements can be found on lower and higher end watches so the part availability is increased. By economies of scale I'd much prefer to see a new "ETA" as opposed to multiple brands filling the gaps even if it is a tad monopolyish.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

ancreanchor said:


> . . . I'd much prefer to see a new "ETA" as opposed to multiple brands filling the gaps even if it is a tad monopolyish.


A tad?? 

That's like saying the Statue of Liberty is "a tad" heavy and "a tad" difficult to put in one's pocket.

Reminds me of the Monty Python movie in which the Black Knight gets his arm chopped clean off . . . and then still wants to fight. When the hero points out that his arm has come off, the Black Knight replies, "Tis but a flesh wound. Have at you!." LOL

Yeah, that movie was "a tad" funny. ;-)


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Not Hayek Sr., Hayek Jr.
> 
> It's true that Sr. saved the Swiss watch industry from the Japanese / Quartz revolution of the 1970's. Back then, consolidation was necessary for the survival of many traditional Swiss brands that simply refused to take the Japanese seriously until it was almost too late. But that era has been over for a long time now. The monopoly should have been broken up years ago.
> 
> ...


Of course, those cheap plastic watches re-established the notion of watch style for the sake of style, and the Japanese could make cheap movements but they had not yet learned style. Those plastic watches sold by the millions, and the income from them is what made the industry-saving consolidation possible.

We should also remember that "cheap quartz" was an oxymoron in the early 70's. At that time, quartz watches were premium products and mechanical watches were the workaday models people wore just because they needed to tell time. That situation did not reverse until Casio came on the scene in a big way. By that time, the successful Swiss companies were making quality quartz movements--EBEL, for example, made many of the quartz movements used in the Swiss watch industry. That's when quartz movements went "price point" with Casio and Pulsar. Seiko watches were at that time still considered fairly expensive to those who just wanted to tell time. It seems to me that the S'watch made the final crossing to the concept of watches-as-jewelry. That actually set the stage for a resurgence of mechanical watches, since people were no longer required to think of them as utilitarian.

It seems to me that Sellita and Soprod are making movements that will replace the previous ETA movements for those etabllisseurs who do not make their own. This is consistent with traditional Swiss practice where most watches were made by horizontally organized ebauche manufactures and etablisseurs. Sellita is Spanish-owned but located in Le Chaux de Fonds. Soprod is owned by Festina but located in the Jura Valley. I'm sure both will supply movements of whatever quality etablisseurs are willing to pay for--both already provide chronometer-grade movements if requested. Soprod seems to have aimed at the higher end of the market--the market now dominated by movements like the ETA 2892 in its better grades--while Sellita seems to have aimed at the budget end of the market with its SW200 lookalike of the ETA 2824.

Rick "who'd be as happy with a Soprod movement in a watch as with an ETA" Denney


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

RoelJm said:


> What is with the dates on this forum - Its 2012 and all the recent posts show 2006 ???


Change the settings so that the forum displays the most recent posts last, instead of first.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Rdenney said:


> Of course, those cheap plastic watches re-established the notion of watch style for the sake of style, and the Japanese could make cheap movements but they had not yet learned style. Those plastic watches sold by the millions, and the income from them is what made the industry-saving consolidation possible.


Yes, exactly. That was my main point. The industry wasn't saved by one or two truly high-end brands that catered to the top 10% of income earners. It was saved by a quartz brand that was worn by teenagers as fashion accessories. Plural definitely being the case as during the 1980s it was common to see girls wearing multiple Swatches on their arms.



> We should also remember that "cheap quartz" was an oxymoron in the early 70's. At that time, quartz watches were premium products and mechanical watches were the workaday models people wore just because they needed to tell time.


Perhaps I missed a comma in my previous post. I meant that the Swatches themselves were cheap in terms of overall quality. Not that quartz technology at the time was extremely cheap. (The way it is today.) Also, sorry; but many of us don't buy into the notion that mechanical / automatic watches have today been reduced to mere fashion accessories or Man-Jewelry. Many of us still use such timepieces as, well . . . timepieces. No reason why a watch should be ugly though.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Oh, I wear a watch to tell time. But I don't wear a fine mechanical watch merely to tell time. I wear it as a statement to myself of who I want to be.

It's as much an expression of my fascination with machines as jewelry, though. 

Rick "who waited many years for the ability to say 'fine'" Denney


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Rdenney said:


> Oh, I wear a watch to tell time. But I don't wear a fine mechanical watch to tell time. I wear that because it a statement to myself of who I want to be.


That's perfectly fine. Many individuals choose to do that. I just like having a small machine on my wrist that can keep time without the need of a battery, and pulses delightfully after shaking it a bit so. I find it truly fascinating. 

(I also find it rather disturbing how obscenely dependent the world has become on electricity and batteries to power basically everything that human-beings rely upon everyday. But that's a subject of discussion for a different topic.)


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## watchma (Jul 11, 2012)

RoelJm said:


> Its 2012


and ...its 20*13* last time I looked ;-), talking about 2012 is sooooo last year


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## xjamit (Jan 25, 2013)

Hong Kong has been mentioned several times in this thread, but which movements are being made there?


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## Lemper (Jun 18, 2012)

watchma said:


> and ...its 20*13* last time I looked ;-), talking about 2012 is sooooo last year


LOL, yeah right this!


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## Sea-Wolf (May 10, 2011)

Update (2013) and question re: Chinese/HK alternatives:

There are 2 Chinese companies that make ETA/ Unitas clones. They are the Hangzhou Watch Company and TianjinSea-Gull. Other alternatives from Asia include Japan's Miyota (Citizen) and Seiko. Also, in China, there is supposedly another group known as the "Shanghai Watch Industry Co." that apparently make a variety of watches, etc., including open-heart and tourbillons: see, http://www.shwatch.cn/eng/about.asp. In terms of Swiss alternatives, there's Sellita, Soprod, and also Valanvron.

Valanvron is a relative newcomer, apparently financed by Sea-Gull and also using base movements (ebauches) from Sea-Gull as well. Sea-Gull being a Chinese movement manufacturer, recently granted "National Treasure" status and bought by the Tianjin state, and thus State "nurtured" as such if so: see, HH Journal: Hong Kong Watch & Clock Fair 2012 - Asia - From our correspondents - news from the world of watchmaking and luxury watches - Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie ). The movements are apparently well finished with complications added, such decoration apparently done by a HK company (Nigiro Ltd., its website claiming that it's a complete watch manufacturer, as follows:"Watch Manufactory: Complete watches produce; The sale of mechanical movement; Mechanicalmovement modification; Parts customize," see: http://nigiroltd.com/index.php?lang=ENGLISH&site=ABOUT). The movements are then assembled in Switzerland, some of the components being replaced with Swiss-made ones supplied by the Acrotec Group, which Group is itself backed by the Quilvest Group (private equity investor) and consists of the following: Decovi (bezels, flanges, backs, turned case middles, casing rings, retaining rings, and components for the"movement" section, such as drums, barrel covers, date discs and oscillating weights); KIF Parechoc; Générale Ressorts (springs and energy modules); and Vardeco (screw-machining of components for the electronics industry, including watches).

Meantime, as to the "Swatch/ETA" situation, seems that everyone who wanted to respond have done so, having been given more time to do so (due to translation requirements and requests, etc.), which although those responses are confidential seems the consensus as such was not that ETA/Swatch be prevented from discontinuing supply but, rather, that the industry be given more time to tool up and source alternatives, etc. Thus, if so, a question not of "if" but rather "when" as has been said; based on same, COMCO has apparently drawn up a second draft to which Swatch now has an opportunity respond. If Swatch agrees with the "second draft agreement" (which apparently contains "significant changes" from the earlier draft after being circulated, whatever those changes may be), then it may be expected that COMCO will approve the "settlement"as such and an end to the "situation" may be near, and about which all who are interested can read more here: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4f32ecf2-242d-11e2-9509-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Kc4tCtnd

Cheers


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## philskywalker (May 28, 2009)

Watch for Asian rep/clone movements now, thats my worry


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

philskywalker said:


> Watch for Asian rep/clone movements now, that's my worry.


No worries. Just buy from a brand that is open and honest about what they're using. Oris, for example, has already switched to Sellita for their supply of movements.


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## Lemper (Jun 18, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> No worries. Just buy from a brand that is open and honest about what they're using. Oris, for example, has already switched to Sellita for their supply of movements.


Thanks ,will try Sellita!


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Huge number of brands rely on ETA for the movements inside their watches. ETA is part of the giant monopoly known as the Swatch Group.
> 
> (snip)


Thanks for the summary.

Ya know, my first reaction is to stay away from SG/ETA movements if/when I get a nice new mechanical watch.

Funny as it sounds now, I'm more curious about TAG than before, now that I've read that they're not simply using ETA. I'll keep my ears open.


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## Admira (May 20, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

http://stpch.com/


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## wileywf (Jan 31, 2013)

What will this mean for servicing of non-Swatch Group watches with ETA movements? Will independent watchmakers still be able to service them with genuine ETA parts?


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## little big feather (Mar 6, 2013)

wileywf said:


> What will this mean for servicing of non-Swatch Group watches with ETA movements? Will independent watchmakers still be able to service them with genuine ETA parts?


Don't worry.....Be happy.
Parts will not be a problem. It was complete mvmnts.they are not selling...All this goes back for 10 years or so....Name any watch in the world that makes
an "in-house mvmt."...The factory has a major fire, everything is lost,no parts...Worry about that, more than ETA.


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## CCJ (Nov 14, 2011)

wileywf said:


> What will this mean for servicing of non-Swatch Group watches with ETA movements? Will independent watchmakers still be able to service them with genuine ETA parts?


As I understand it, indie watchmakers will be able to use Sellita parts for ETA movements. Sellita has made parts for ETA under license so I would use their parts with confidence. Someone more knowledgable correct me if I'm wrong though.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

CCJ said:


> As I understand it, indie watchmakers will be able to use Sellita parts for ETA movements. Sellita has made parts for ETA under license so I would use their parts with confidence. Someone more knowledgable correct me if I'm wrong though.


I mentioned that on another watch forum, and was corrected by a well-respected watchmaker who mentioned that the interchangeability between Sellita parts for ETA movements is not nearly as compatible as many think it is.

Worse comes to worst, an independent watchmaker could do a full movement swap. Some might not be too happy with that. But if you like the watch and want it to keep running, it's not as though a Sellita movement is some 2nd-rate copy.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> I mentioned that on another watch forum, and was corrected by a well-respected watchmaker who mentioned that the interchangeability between Sellita parts for ETA movements is not nearly as compatible as many think it is.


Which is what I have always been trying to tell you; that the two movements are not necessarily the same despite being essentially the same design.

Oh wait, wasn't that why you put me on your ignore list; because I kept correcting you on this?


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

drunken monkey said:


> Which is what I have always been trying to tell you; that the two movements are not necessarily the same despite being essentially the same design.
> 
> Oh wait, wasn't that why you put me on your ignore list; because I kept correcting you on this?


No, I originally tossed you on there because you kept following my posts from one topic to the next and just being obnoxious for the sake of being obnoxious. As far as Sellita and ETA movements go, my main point has always been that Sellita doesn't make crappy copies of ETA movements. And that Sellita used to be a sub-contractor for ETA. Making movements that went into watches under the ETA name. All true. Nothing made up there.

Anyway, I recently had a change of heart and took off several individuals who were on my Ignore List. Not everyone though. Not anyone who went on there recently. But figured I was perhaps a bit too hasty several months back. I left Hidden By Leaves on there because he's honestly worse than you are with this weird obsession in following me around. But I did recently take you off my list. Clearly, a mistake on my part.

You know, in an odd way I feel flattered. I post honestly on WUS. I know that will sometimes cause others to get upset with me. (Especially if I post a constructive criticism about any watch from their favorite brand.) I've made some good friends on these boards. Helped out numerous new members who came in with plenty of questions. Ticked off a few members with my blatant honesty. But none had this odd desire to follow my posts like you and Hidden. Oh well ...

Welcome back to my Ignore List. It's mainly full of a few new additions. But you and Hidden have access to the V.I.P. section of the I-Hate-Monocrom fan-club. Welcome back! :-!


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

So basically, anyone who posts things that disagree with you get ignored.

I'd dig out your old posts where you insisted that the SW200 was an identical twin to the 2824 but that'd take too much effort.

I also find it interesting that you take so much pride in your ignore list.
When there is someone that I can't be bothered to respond to, I just don't post.


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## geoffbot (Mar 12, 2011)

Leave it out boys - you're both as bad as each other and would both be in my ignore list if vBulletin allowed mods to have em ;-)


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

geoffbot said:


> Leave it out boys - you're both as bad as each other and would both be in my ignore list if vBulletin allowed mods to have em ;-)




Being a moderator isn't all glamour and fame. Hopefully I give you fewer headaches than most members.


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## geoffbot (Mar 12, 2011)

You're alright Mono


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## Georgef (Aug 14, 2013)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Perhaps it was this one or another, similar, topic. But I pointed out in detail why this idea is going to horribly back-fire in the end.
> 
> Basically, none of the micro brands are going to go away. They'll find a way to stay in business. With Sellita and the other non Swatch Group movement makers being too small to take up the hole which will be left by ETA's very slow but eventual departure, the micro brands will have no choice but to go to Seiko or Citizen to stay in business. And since the Japanese know how to make quality movements, those micro brands will just quietly drop the words "Swiss-Made" from the dials of their watches.


Hello *Monocrom*,

Allow me to add my opinion.

Abandoning the 'Swiss Made' is a radical change of the company's identity and products, of course. If many micro brands do this then they will actually pack their things and leave from the 'Swiss Made' market, which we can safely claim that is captivating for non-experts and connoisseurs too.

So if this does happen and 'Swiss Made' market continues to be much more important than the alternatives then it could be what SG wants. The total pie of the 'Swiss Made' from parts to final watch would be easier to be consumed by Swatch Group with more sales of their watches in a market with less competitors. This could also be assisted by the fact that it competes in an environment where ETA is today technologically and perceptually in front of the smaller Swiss competitors, so ETA watches could be more attractive.

Can the non-SG brands keep 'Swatch Made' with foreign movements thanks to the 51% rule? If this is the case I would expect either a change of the rule or a new label certifying the 'real Swiss made'...
In addition, the non-Swiss movements would have to prove that they are better than and also not a copy of the established ETA...

Thanks.

Regards


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Dropping the "Swiss-Made" label is one option. Though in all likelihood the micro brands which are simply "Swiss-Made" in name only, will find a way to comply with the 51% legal definition. Not as though 51% requires a ton of effort. As for the general buying public, it's all about perception. "Swiss-Made" on the dial of many watches is now just a hollow marketing gimmick. Educated consumers know which brands truly are "Swiss-Made" in all the ways that actually matter, vs. those that are that way in name only.


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## geoffbot (Mar 12, 2011)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Monocrom said:


> Dropping the "Swiss-Made" label is one option. Though in all likelihood the micro brands which are simply "Swiss-Made" in name only, will find a way to comply with the 51% legal definition. Not as though 51% requires a ton of effort. As for the general buying public, it's all about perception. "Swiss-Made" on the dial of many watches is now just a hollow marketing gimmick. Educated consumers know which brands truly are "Swiss-Made" in all the ways that actually matter, vs. those that are that way in name only.


True. It's gone up to 60% though, hasn't it? Not that it makes much difference.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



geoffbot said:


> True. It's gone up to 60% though, hasn't it? Not that it makes much difference.


I might be wrong, but I thought they were still debating that idea. Still, you're right. Not a meaningful improvement at all.


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## WatchILuv (May 25, 2013)

Sorry if this comes across naïve, I'm sort of new to horology, but if ETA is a subsidiary of the Swatch Group, and Swatch Group takes a strategic direction to make ETA movements increasingly exclusive to watches manufactured by Swatch Group, doesn't this amount to ETA movements becoming "in house" to Swatch Group, thereby enhancing the appeal of Swatch Group watches?


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

WatchILuv said:


> Sorry if this comes across naïve, I'm sort of new to horology, but if ETA is a subsidiary of the Swatch Group, and Swatch Group takes a strategic direction to make ETA movements increasingly exclusive to watches manufactured by Swatch Group, doesn't this amount to ETA movements becoming "in house" to Swatch Group, thereby enhancing the appeal of Swatch Group watches?


No, doesn't work that way. Technically "in-house," but in name only. To those in the know, it's not remotely the same thing as an actual in-house movement.


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

Monocrom said:


> No, doesn't work that way. Technically "in-house," but in name only. To the movement snobs more seduced by the concept of "in house" than actually knowing what they're talking about, it's not remotely the same thing as an actual in-house movement.


Fixed it for ya.

Not many "in house" manufactures actually make the movements and assemble the watches in the same building, and of those, many have a separate business unit for the movement manufacture. At that point, the difference between in house and in group is an awfully slippery slope.


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## Raymond Lin (Sep 6, 2013)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*

Does anyone know what will happen to brand stuch as Steinhart?

It has been almost 3 years since this has started and they are still using ETA movements?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

*Re: Interesting article on the effects of ETA movement supply issues*



Raymond Lin said:


> Does anyone know what will happen to brand stuch as Steinhart?
> 
> It has been almost 3 years since this has started and they are still using ETA movements?


Please look into the Steinhart forum, you will find your answer over there.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Am I the only one in favor of this move by Swatch Group?

They're actually giving other manufacturers the opportunity to develop AND INNOVATE movements and movement parts.

More competition = more options for the consumers.


PS: Although technically not related, this also applies to current-gen smartphones.
Every high-end smartphone is relying on Qualcomm's Snapdragon SoCs at the moment.
I fear this is unhealthy in the long run, since Qualcomm will soon dominate and monopolize the mobile processor industry (much like how Nokia monopolized the phone industry before the advent of Google's Android OS), unless Nvidia's Tegra or Intel's Atom mobile processors improve significantly.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Hayek's motivation wasn't to stimulate competition. It was to put the micro brands out of business and make it harder for non-Swatch Group brands to compete. 

However, it was short-sighted of him since the competition has found ways to cope with the situation. Only one losing profits is ETA.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> Hayek's motivation wasn't to stimulate competition. It was to put the micro brands out of business and make it harder for non-Swatch Group brands to compete.
> 
> However, it was short-sighted of him since the competition has found ways to cope with the situation. Only one losing profits is ETA.


I dunno Mr. Hayek personally, so I can't comment further on his actual motivation.

He has stated, though, that it was part of his solution to avoid a "third crisis" that will affect the watch industry in the future. (The only source I've read this from is the internet, and may perhaps be merely speculation.)
The main point was Swiss manufactures will suffer LACK OF INNOVATION from heavy reliance from ETA, and manufactures from other countries like Germany and Japan will eventually surpass Swiss quality (which I believe is slowly happening right now).


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

entropy96 said:


> I dunno Mr. Hayek personally, so I can't comment further on his actual motivation.


I'm sorry, but let's be realistic here. Hayek Jr. does not have a reputation as an altruistic individual who simply wants what is best for the Swiss Watch World. The interviews he's given, the policies that went into effect at the Swatch Group since he took over, etc.

Businessman who wants the Swatch Group to dominate the industry completely? Yes.

Nice guy? Not even remotely. But in fairness, few guys who are in charge of a huge conglomerate rarely are.

A guy goes out with a shy girl. Wants only one thing from her. Tells her at the end of the night that he loves her. Is he being genuine? No. Does she know it? No.

Of course he's not going to be honest about cutting down drastically and ultimately cutting off the supply of ETA movements to non-Swatch Group brands. He's going to go with the "I love you" response of stimulating competition and helping innovation throughout the industry.

As far as that "third crisis" goes, that's what he himself hoped to create. Micro brands that can legally put the words "Swiss-Made" on the dials of their watches go out of business. Bigger brands now forced to spend more money on R&D and thus become less profitable compared to Swatch Group brands. That was his real motivation. And it's rather blatant that that was indeed his intent. If Hayek Jr. wanted to stimulate the industry, why not "help" other Swatch Group brands to "innovate" as well? Yup, just cut off the supply of ETA movements to them as well. "Help" Tissot, Rado, Certina, and Mido (for example) "improve" the quality of their watches as well. Let those Swatch Group brands suffer a bit so that they can in the long run innovate and improve themselves.

Odd how that didn't occur. Actually, no. Not odd at all. This whole issue isn't about innovating, improving, or fighting off the German-made or Japanese-made brands. It's about killing off the smaller micro brands and putting the hurt on the bigger non-Swatch Group brands. It's already been mentioned in this topic why his plans will horribly back-fire. Still, can't blame a businessman for wanting to maximize profits for his brand(s) while crippling competing brands.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

entropy96 said:


> The main point was Swiss manufactures will suffer LACK OF INNOVATION from heavy reliance from ETA...


Contra to that, please bear in mind that many of ETA's former ebauche customers (who did their own enhancements or farmed them out to 3rd parties) still continue to buy their movements from ETA, only now their brand-specific custom enhancements are performed by ETA who supply the completed movement to the customer. So in those instances there has actually been a contraction of 'innovation' etc as (presumably) the movement specialists at those companies will now be seeking employment within Swatch Group/ETA. And there are much bigger profits in selling complete movements with custom enhancements than selling ebauches.

Meanwhile TAG-Heuer and Soprod have both adopted Japanese (Seiko) designs made entirely in Switzerland; one of in-house use and the other for sale as a generic. If Mr Hayek genuinely intended to stimulate greater design diversity and innovation in Swiss made generic mass-market mechanical movements (which is what this is all about), then he didn't succeed. But I don't believe that was his true intention.


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

Chascomm said:


> And there are much bigger profits in selling complete movements with custom enhancements than selling ebauches.


Exactly.

... And even MORE in selling the complete watch. The fact is, so long as they are forced to sell ebauches to competitors, those are movements that can't go into Swatch Group watches. Remember, normal market conditions are not at play here - ETA is FORCED by the Swiss government to sell a certain amount of its product to competitors - I am not aware of another situation like this anywhere.

ETA appears to have used the freed up capacity to indeed help Longines, Tissot, and SWATCH with special movements like the Powermatic 90 and Sistem51.

Lastly, don't confuse Hayek Sr (who started this in motion) with Hayek Jr. I actually DO believe Sr had more altruistic views in mind, but clearly Jr does not - which is not unusual. This is a business after all, and business is about sustainable profit.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2013)

Why the Chinese, with all of their cash reserves, have not jumped feet first into this situation, remains a mystery.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

johndozier said:


> Why the Chinese, with all of their cash reserves, have not jumped feet first into this situation, remains a mystery.


Probably because "the Chinese" are not a single company. They are a nation with many private, public and joint-venture companies (the People's Republic has actually had a market-based economy for about 30 years now). Also "this situation" is specifically about 'Swiss' movements. If the customer wants a 'Swiss watch' or a watch with a 'Swiss movement' then all the hundreds of thousands of mechanical watch movements made annually in China won't meet that demand. They will meet a different demand, which is for those customers for whom the word 'Swiss' is not significant (unless it is also accompanied by certain characteristics in the watch itself) i.e. the bulk of Chinese movement production is competing with Japanese makers such as Seiko/TMI and Miyota.

However _some_ of "the Chinese" _have_ been able to turn "this situation" to their advantage by selling raw ebauches to Swiss movement assemblers/finishers. Both Sea-Gull and the Shanghai Watch Company have found buyers for their product in Switzerland, and this _is_ actually creating diversity within the Swiss watch industry because without an external source of ebauches, there would be few opportunities for companies specialising in the assembly of generic mechanical movements. Remember that Sellita _was_ an assembler of ETA movements before they started cutting their own ebauches, so they (like ETA) are now in the business of selling the completed movement.

Do all these alternative (wholly or partially Swiss) sources amount to a total production volume equalling or exceeding the amount by which ETA have reduced their output? I don't know, but I doubt it. However I think they will grow in the next few years.


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## tobitas (Feb 28, 2011)

Insightful article in the Swiss NZZ newspaper on the supply agreements of ETA movements and Nivarox parts in the next years: http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/wirtschaf...n/lieferzwang-fuer-swatch-bis-2019-1.18173949


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

*ETA/Nivarox supply ends @ 31 December 2019*

All, sorry to start a thread on this topic again but as far as I understood there's a new outcome from Comco. ETA and Nivarox will stop supplying companies outside the SG on 31 December 2020. Until then there will be some decrease every 2 years.

Anyone have news on this? I received a news feed but it's in Portuguese....

Edit: just found the original source

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Swatch_freed_from_supplying_rivals_with_parts.html?cid=37197862
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

*SG supplying others will end on 2020*

New outcome regarding this topic:

Competition Commission rules Swatch can cut parts supplies to rivals. - swissinfo.ch

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

Thanks to orient, citizen and seiko, I don't have to give a damn what Swatch does with their movements.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

DiverBob said:


> Thanks to orient, citizen and seiko, I don't have to give a damn what Swatch does with their movements.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Orient just needs to change it's name!


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

I like the name and the long history of producing solid watches. The name on the dial never bothers me...it's the inflated price tag on too many brands that bother me more.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

JAYMAC10 said:


> Orient just needs to change it's name!


Why?? ... Simply because some have a horribly skewed politically correct mentality that the word "Orient" is somehow racist or derogatory?

Orient is a Japanese company. Owned by Seiko. Also a Japanese company. Obviously, no one at either Japanese company thinks that the name Orient is derogatory or racist. If they did, they would have changed the name.

Orient is well-known and very respected in a number of different nations. Sold in 70 nations across the world. Obviously successful enough that Seiko decided to keep it as a separate brand rather than kill it and just slap "Seiko" across the dials of some of the old Orient models.

Orient is successful, profitable, and popular (though granted, not as popular in North America as it is in other parts of the world). Still, the executives at Orient aren't offended by the name. The customers who buy their watches aren't offended by the name. My Orient Black Mako was just $130 and kept time consistently +1 second out of COSC. For a non-COSC timepiece at that price, I was very happy. Plus, it's just a good-looking watch at any price.

Just like the Orient Express conjures up images of romance, mystery, and sophistication; Orient the watch company (among those of us with experience in owning their watches) conjures up certain images or ideas too ... None of them insulting, derogatory, or racist. I think of quality, accuracy, value, good-looks; that sort of thing.


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

Monocrom said:


> Why?? ... Simple because some have a horribly skewed politically correct mentality that the word "Orient" is somehow racist or derogatory?
> 
> Orient is a Japanese company. Owned by Seiko. Also a Japanese company. Obviously, no one at either Japanese company thinks that the name Orient is derogatory or racist. If they did, they would have changed the name.
> 
> ...


Bravo


----------



## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Why?? ... Simple because some have a horribly skewed politically correct mentality that the word "Orient" is somehow racist or derogatory?
> 
> Orient is a Japanese company. Owned by Seiko. Also a Japanese company. Obviously, no one at either Japanese company thinks that the name Orient is derogatory or racist. If they did, they would have changed the name.
> 
> ...


1. I keep hearing from Asians that "Oriental" is derogatory.

2. I'm sure those who work in Japanese factories do not want to be equated with those who work in Chinese factories, who do not want to be equated to those who work in Indian factories. All wish it were not so, but it is. All are within the classical definition of "Orient".

3. Japan has much greater brand value as a manufacturing nation among consumers than most other Asian nations, particularly China. (Just as Switzerland has greater brand value in this sector compared to, say, Italy.) That was not true 50 years ago, and it may not be true 50 years from now.

Given the number of times I see "MADE IN JAPAN" and "in Japanese factories" highlighted in Orient's ads, I suspect they do not think that being Japanese is a brand detriment (quite the opposite), but those other associations are obviously on their minds.

Rick "wishing the Seiko store would sell Orients like they do Pulsars" Denney


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Rdenney said:


> 1. I keep hearing from Asians that "Oriental" is derogatory.
> 
> 2. I'm sure those who work in Japanese factories do not want to be equated with those who work in Chinese factories, who do not want to be equated to those who work in Indian factories. All wish it were not so, but it is. All are within the classical definition of "Orient".
> 
> ...


Once again, if the Asian executives at both Orient and Seiko aren't offended by the word "Orient;" I see no reason to be.

No news stories of angry protests breaking out at the Orient factory or at Authorized Dealers across the planet.


----------



## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> Once again, if the Asian executives at both Orient and Seiko aren't offended by the word "Orient;" I see no reason to be.
> 
> No news stories of angry protests breaking out at the Orient factory or at Authorized Dealers across the planet.


Hey, you wondered why a person thinks the brand name causes problems, and I gave you some possible answers. You focused only on the first. We've had enough touchiness on this forum alone, extrapolating all manner of mild xenophobia into full-on racism. It doesn't bother _me._ But then I'm not Asian.

Clearly, those Orient executives do think it is an issue, because they emphasize their Japanese manufacturing location more than Invicta brags about being Swiss. Obviously, they don't think it is so much of an issue that they are willing to change the company name (nor do I think they should), but clearly it's on their minds.

Rick "who might be interested in a couple of models, but not without seeing them in the metal" Denney


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Rdenney said:


> Hey, you wondered why a person thinks the brand name causes problems, and I gave you some possible answers. You focused only on the first. We've had enough touchiness on this forum alone, extrapolating all manner of mild xenophobia into full-on racism. It doesn't bother _me._ But then I'm not Asian.


Actually, I didn't wonder why the name causes problems. I think some folks simply enjoy getting offended over nothing just so they pretend to have a high moral character compared to others. It's simply much ado over nothing. Yes, I focused on the first point you mentioned and not the other two. There was no need to.



> Clearly, those Orient executives do think it is an issue, because they emphasize their Japanese manufacturing location more than Invicta brags about being Swiss. Obviously, they don't think it is so much of an issue that they are willing to change the company name (nor do I think they should), but clearly it's on their minds.


With regards to points 2 and 3, Orient's executives don't go out of their way to make it clear they're a Japanese company as opposed to one based in China. You buy a product, you're curious of where it came from, you look for something that says "Made in ______" and that's it. Same with Orient.


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## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

Wow did that escalate quickly!

I find it interesting that in your response (and most people's reaction/response) to me saying Orient needs to change its name, you automatically imply/assume it has something to do with being racist or derogatory. Why? Why not just ask a simple question back like... Why(?) before writing a novel defending Orient?

First off, I have nothing but the highest respect for Orient Watches. I used to own a Mako myself but for some odd reason the pins kept bending so I sold it. Would have kept it had it not been for that. And in fact, I might just pick up an Orient dress watch soon...

Also, please keep in mind, this is my opinion and obviously not the opinion of others, so you don't have to try and argue with me or try to convince me that I'm wrong. I have every right to my own views and opinions and so does everyone else. Obviously, you and others don't think Orient needs to change its name and perfectly fine by me!

The main reason I think Orient needs to or should change its name has to do with perception, not fact or reality. Obviously, being in NA, my opinion is biased and narrow minded. Other areas around the world will most certainly have different perceptions on the word Orient. But I think in general, when someone in NA hears the word "Orient" they think&#8230;. Asia and more specifically, China.

When NA people think of Asia or China, they generally think; mass produced, cheap, lower quality products.

So what I'm saying is here in NA, the name "Orient" doesn't fit with the actual product. Orient isn't even made in China, nor is it lower quality or cheap (well I guess the price is cheap for what you get!). Orient watches are extremely well made, quality, and totally "in-house" awesome but if you asked people off the street, I don't think those are the kinds of words they would use.

If you put two automatic watches, say Orient & Tissot, side by side at a table and asked people walking by which one is better quality, me thinks most people would choose Tissot. Why? Perception.

So IMO they would probably sell more watches if they changed their name, or at least re-branded their watches here in NA, to something that doesn't falsely imply a cheap Asian product.

That's all!



Monocrom said:


> Why?? ... Simply because some have a horribly skewed politically correct mentality that the word "Orient" is somehow racist or derogatory?
> 
> Orient is a Japanese company. Owned by Seiko. Also a Japanese company. Obviously, no one at either Japanese company thinks that the name Orient is derogatory or racist. If they did, they would have changed the name.
> 
> ...


----------



## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Well, thanks for not bothering to explain any of that in the first place. 

I'm sure you also feel that Junkers needs to change their name too ... based off of perception.


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## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

Monocrom said:


> Well, thanks for not bothering to explain any of that in the first place.
> 
> I'm sure you also feel that Junkers needs to change their name too ... based off of perception.


Hey, originally I didn't really feel the need to explain it!

And, no, I would view the name Junkers more of a company being facetious. That's different than the name Orient which, IMO, implies it's made in China where there is truth to some products being cheap and low(er) quality. Hence the negative perception, IMO, on Orient Watches which is unfortunate and obviously totally incorrect.

But now that I have explained my opinion and given the fact it's way off topic, maybe we should get back on topic! 

Cheers,

Jay


----------



## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Isn't the Junkers name related to the manufacturer that also made aircraft that fought in WWII, like the "Stuka" dive bomber?


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## LeopardBear (Aug 7, 2013)

It's literally the same name yes.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

BarracksSi said:


> Isn't the Junkers name related to the manufacturer that also made aircraft that fought in WWII, like the "Stuka" dive bomber?


Yup. It's supposed to be pronounced "Yunkers."


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

At the risk of further thread-derailment I apologise but I can't let this go past:


JAYMAC10 said:


> And, no, I would view the name Junkers more of a company being facetious.


:-s What exactly is facetious about naming a watch comapny after a highly respected but now defunct aircraft manufacturer?

You see, there is where the problem lies: "That brand looks trashy to North Americans therefore it should be changed". Well I'm an English-speaker from a non-North American country and I can tell you that I could see no negative connotations to the name 'Junkers' until some Americans on the forums started saying "What's up with that name?"

Getting back to Orient, I can't see why they would be willing to throw away more than half a century of heritage and international brand recognition just because in the recent years in North America, the word "oriental" has acquired an association primarily with China of which there has (in recent years) risen the perception of low-quality goods.


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## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

Sorry, but my response is based on what I believe would be the standpoint of 99% of the general population, not the 1% hard core watch lovers like everyone on this forum.

Do you really think people who hear the name "junkers" know it's taken from a WWII aircraft? Hell no! They hear the word "Junk" first and foremost.

I stand by what I said.

As for Orient, well I guess it's called marketing. I don't see why that's all that hard to understand? Lots of global companies have various brand names under the one roof. Some brands they heavily promote in one country and don't in another...

Again, I think because you are a watch lover, you know/understand the actual details and everything you say makes sense when viewed from your standpoint. You are preaching to the (1%) choir here.

I'm talking for the other 99%!

Capisce?



Chascomm said:


> At the risk of further thread-derailment I apologise but I can't let this go past:
> :-s What exactly is facetious about naming a watch comapny after a highly respected but now defunct aircraft manufacturer?
> 
> You see, there is where the problem lies: "That brand looks trashy to North Americans therefore it should be changed". Well I'm an English-speaker from a non-North American country and I can tell you that I could see no negative connotations to the name 'Junkers' until some Americans on the forums started saying "What's up with that name?"
> ...


----------



## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

JAYMAC10 said:


> Sorry, but my response is based on what I believe would be the standpoint of 99% of the general population, not the 1% hard core watch lovers like everyone on this forum.
> 
> Do you really think people who hear the name "junkers" know it's taken from a WWII aircraft? Hell no! They hear the word "Junk" first and foremost.
> 
> I stand by what I said.


As you wish, but I also stand by what I said. The 99% that you refer to are Americans. Please accept that perceptions might be different amongst the general population of the world, including other English-speaking countries.



> As for Orient, well I guess it's called marketing. I don't see why that's all that hard to understand? Lots of global companies have various brand names under the one roof. Some brands they heavily promote in one country and don't in another...


 Then perhaps what you meant was that you think that they should offer an alternative brand for the North American market, rather than (as you originally said) change their main brand name.



> Again, I think because you are a watch lover, you know/understand the actual details and everything you say makes sense when viewed from your standpoint. You are preaching to the (1%) choir here.


Not at all. I am talking about the perception of the words 'Orient' and 'Junkers' independent of their watch context. The term 'junker' in the sense that you understand it is not in general use in other countries. True fact.



> Capisce?


What's that? Something to do with fish?


----------



## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

Brand names have problems in every industry. Nikon named its first cameras Nipon, based on the company name Nippon Kogaku. In the 50's (but not today) the brand didn't work in their biggest market, America. No, it's not fair. But they still changed their brand name, and eventually the company name, to Nikon.

Chevrolet came out with the Nova in the late 60's. To Spanish speakers, it meant "no go". GM stuck with it, but that's one model name they have never brought back. I doubt any Spanish speaker really thought that's what GM meant, but branding can work at subtler levels than that. 

Nissan sounded too much like Nippon and so they branded cars Datsun in North America. When the connotation lost its negativity, they changed it back. 

Jaeger sounded too German (despite that Jaeger operated in Paris), and JLCs were sold in the US as just LeCoultre. Soon enough, the German sound became positive and they put it back in. 

Companies can't control perceptions. They just have to make a business decision. "Orient" was exotic back in the day; now, not so much. There are ways to overcome that, but Orient struggles with that. Making videos with a (slightly) Chinese-accented narrator doesn't help, even though those videos highlight the Japanese origins. Again, it's not fair, but you can't put a demand for fairness on a balance sheet. 

I'm not saying they should change their name. But they already emphasis their Japaneseness, showing that they understand the perception issue. Seiko achieved that back in the 70's, following the same play book as Toyota and Honda by focusing on quality (advertising that fact effectively). It's harder now; all mechanical watches are in the luxury segment and perceptions have a different starting point. 

Rick "nobody's claiming it's fair" Denney


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## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

Chascomm said:


> As you wish, but I also stand by what I said. The 99% that you refer to are Americans. Please accept that perceptions might be different amongst the general population of the world, including other English-speaking countries.


Umm&#8230; Ya, I already said that&#8230;



JAYMAC10 said:


> Also, please keep in mind, this is my opinion and obviously not the opinion of others, so you don't have to try and argue with me or try to convince me that I'm wrong. I have every right to my own views and opinions and so does everyone else. Obviously, you and others don't think Orient needs to change its name and perfectly fine by me!
> 
> The main reason I think Orient needs to or should change its name has to do with perception, not fact or reality. *Obviously, being in NA, my opinion is biased and narrow minded.* Other areas around the world will most certainly have different perceptions on the word Orient.





Chascomm said:


> Then perhaps what you meant was that you think that they should offer an alternative brand for the North American market, rather than (as you originally said) change their main brand name.


Do I hear an echo here here here here&#8230;.



JAYMAC10 said:


> So IMO they would probably sell more watches if they changed their name, *or at least re-branded their watches here in NA*, to something that doesn't falsely imply a cheap Asian product.





Chascomm said:


> I am talking about the perception of the words 'Orient' and 'Junkers' independent of their watch context. The term 'junker' in the sense that you understand it is not in general use in other countries. True fact.


Umm ok. I thought were were talking about watches but whatever...

I live in Canada. So I don't really know the perception of various words in other countries. True fact.



Chascomm said:


> What's that? Something to do with fish?


Capisce: Urban Dictionary: capisce



> Capisce (pronounced cah-PEESH) is an Italian word that is used in American slang to say "got it" or "understand."
> 
> To say I understand is capisco (cah-PEE-sko).
> You better get outta my house before I break your face, capisce? Yeah, capisco.


Chascomm, I really hope you understand that I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong. Everything that you are staying is completely correct. When viewed from where you live.

Everything I'm saying is, IMO, correct when viewed from where I live.

Hopefully the light bulb goes off in your head so this thread can get back on track!

Even if the light bulb doesn't go off, I'm done!


----------



## JAYMAC10 (May 14, 2008)

I'm glad you were able to explain it better than me!

Bravo!



Rdenney said:


> Brand names have problems in every industry. Nikon named its first cameras Nipon, based on the company name Nippon Kogaku. In the 50's (but not today) the brand didn't work in their biggest market, America. No, it's not fair. But they still changed their brand name, and eventually the company name, to Nikon.
> 
> Chevrolet came out with the Nova in the late 60's. To Spanish speakers, it meant "no go". GM stuck with it, but that's one model name they have never brought back. I doubt any Spanish speaker really thought that's what GM meant, but branding can work at subtler levels than that.
> 
> ...


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## I gotafevergntlemen (Jan 5, 2014)

The decision has been pushed up to 2020 now.But whoever is the Swiss equivelant of the SEC has passed a decision that by 2020 The Swatch group can only sell parts from ETA belonging to the Swatch group.Unless something changes in between time this ruling will more than likely turn the entire industry on its head as far as the production of automatic and mechanical watches is concerned


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## imaCoolRobot (Jan 1, 2014)

Monocrom said:


> No, doesn't work that way. Technically "in-house," but in name only. To those in the know, it's not remotely the same thing as an actual in-house movement.


The world might realise that nonETA movements are just as good, or even far better than ETA. GOOD JOB Swatch

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

chuasam said:


> The world might realise that nonETA movements are just as good, or even far better than ETA. GOOD JOB Swatch
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Maybe, but not a "regulated" cheap prices like the ETA ones...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## stratct (Jun 17, 2010)

It's now been 4 years and I'm still seeing eta movements in non swatch (Co.) watches. So these companies must have stalked up on movements. How long until they run out I wonder 

Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

stratct said:


> It's now been 4 years and I'm still seeing eta movements in non swatch (Co.) watches. So these companies must have stalked up on movements. How long until they run out I wonder
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS720 using Tapatalk


The reason for your observation isn't that companies stalked up movements, it was the ruling of the Switzerland's Federal Administrative Court which forced the Swatch Group to prolong deliveries. However, since 2012 Jan. 1, Swatch Group is able to lower deliveries of watch parts to rivals to ensure that it has enough supplies for its own brands......


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## Ita (Nov 6, 2013)

stuffler said:


> The reason for your observation isn't that companies stalked up movements, it was the ruling of the Switzerland's Federal Administrative Court which forced the Swatch Group to prolong deliveries. However, since 2012 Jan. 1, Swatch Group is able to lower deliveries of watch parts to rivals to ensure that it has enough supplies for its own brands......


Thanks Mike...

Are the future supplies of ETA Movements guaranteed to non Swatch companies by number or is it at their whim who they supply with what?

Ita


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

stuffler said:


> The reason for your observation isn't that companies stalked up movements, it was the ruling of the Switzerland's Federal Administrative Court which forced the Swatch Group to prolong deliveries. However, since 2012 Jan. 1, Swatch Group is able to lower deliveries of watch parts to rivals to ensure that it has enough supplies for its own brands......


The S.G. was never hurting, as far as supplying ETA movements to its own brands. Not as though there was ever a shortage due to selling to non-S.G. brands. Hayek Jr. decided to sacrifice any profits ETA would have made by selling to non-S.G. brands, in exchange for (in his eyes) a great way to put the hurt on the competition.

The Court could see the blatant move for what it was, and refused to allow him to cut off the supply immediately.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

In a free market, if supply was really limited, price would rise. Swatch would be able to fetch a higher price for their movements. That would make it easier for Sellita and Soprod to compete, and would lower demand for ETA movements as other companies now find that alternatives (including in-house) are competitive with those higher prices. The problem would correct itself over time. It would also improve the image of common ETA movements. 

Swatch wants it both ways (or maybe their regulators do)--being cheapest to dominate the market yet wanting to focus supply on their own brands. 

Rick "seeing unnecessary market distortion" Denney


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

What do you think of this? SWATCH GROUP forced to reopen the doors of its "supermarkets"


Is it fair that Swatch must keep selling movements to competitors?
When considering non-manufacture watches of the type that would have an ETA (pick the level that suits you -- Elabore, Standard, Top, Chronometer) do you care if it's ETA, Sellita, Soprod, Concepto, or whomever's motor inside?
Is the Swiss Competition Commission's (COMCO) decision beneficial or detrimental to the watch industry? The Swiss watch industry?
What impact do you think the COMCO's decision will have on the competitive position of the Swiss versus the rest of the world? The Chinese specifically? The Japanese specifically?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

All the best.


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## ilitig8 (Oct 11, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

Tony, I have an opinion, I just don't know what it is yet.


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## AAMC (May 25, 2011)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

I think there was an update regarding that matter during October 2013

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/Swatch_freed_from_supplying_rivals_with_parts.html?cid=37197862

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



tony20009 said:


> What do you think of this? SWATCH GROUP forced to reopen the doors of its "supermarkets"
> 
> 
> Is it fair that Swatch must keep selling movements to competitors?
> ...





AAMC said:


> I think there was an update regarding that matter during October 2013
> 
> Competition Commission rules Swatch can cut parts supplies to rivals. - swissinfo.ch
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


This could still go multiple directions. The other major watch companies, and the few sizable independents that remain, could (and likely will) step up their development to reduce dependence on Swatch. In house could ultimately become a way of life. What I think is more likely is that you will see an increase in the use of Sellita and even Miyota movements in European watch brands. As additional business comes their way, the increased cash flow will ultimately lead to movement improvements, proliferation, and development "easier". Increased capital = increased room for R&D.

Supply and demand is an age old story. If ETA movements and their parts become less available, somebody will gladly fill the gap. Is it a guarantee that they will be Swiss? Not necessarily. Is it a guarantee that at least one or two of the major replacements will still be Swiss? Yes. Is it a guarantee that they will be of ETA quality? Yes, or their newfound business growth will not last and they will fall by the wayside. Is it a guarantee that it will be interesting to watch? Most definitely.


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

Yep, as AAMC pointed out, that decision has been some what reverted - I'm actually glad that Swatch Group doesn't have this shackle of being forced to supply others with movements and balance springs.

For a group that almost single-handedly saved the Swiss watch industry in 80-90s, it's about time they were given opportunity to start looking after themselves.. Probably the biggest unrecognised hero of the watch industry is the Swatch group and this just might send some wake up calls to some mediocre brands out there. Lazy ass manufacturers can either start investing in their own movements or shut up shop. Weed out derp brands from the rest.

I'm not sure how much Swatch are cutting down, in terms of supplying, but will be interesting to see how things get impacted, considering vast majority of watches sport modified ETA movements. And if the European (Swiss) watch companies start using Chinese or Japanese movements, how the term "Swiss Made" will mean for them and in fact for us too.

I suppose brands like Omega, Tissot, Hamilton, Certina and Longines will still receive ETA movements as it falls under the Swatch Group umbrella, but for the rest, like Panerai, Tag, Tudor, might mean back to the drawing board.


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## Mediocre (Oct 27, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



systemcrasher said:


> Yep, as AAMC pointed out, that decision has been some what reverted - I'm actually glad that Swatch Group doesn't have this shackle of being forced to supply others with movements and balance springs.
> 
> For a group that almost single-handedly saved the Swiss watch industry in 80-90s, it's about time they were given opportunity to start looking after themselves.. Probably the biggest unrecognised hero of the watch industry is the Swatch group and this just might send some wake up calls to some mediocre brands out there. Lazy ass manufacturers can either start investing in their own movements or shut up shop. Weed out derp brands from the rest.
> 
> ...


Paneria, Tag, and Tudor/Rolex all have in-house movements in their portfolio.


----------



## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

yep, no doubt, but I'm thinking more of their "best seller" items - which are mostly ETA based. Especially, for Tag, it is bit pointless talking about their watches without mentioning ETA movements. Considering most their in-house watches are produced in very limited numbers - Monaco V4 or the Mikrograph and Mikrogirder and costs mid-high 5 figures. Unless TH is considering mass producing these watches and bring down the price to what people are willing to pay for a Tag Heuer.

And Tag's Calibre 1887 isn't really their in-house movement - I give that credit to Seiko.

It is my observation that best sellers of aforementioned brands sport ETA based movements and therefore I think these brands will be severely impacted.

But having said that, a lot of people cry about Panerai and Tudor for sporting ETA movements, so might workout better.. You never know


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



systemcrasher said:


> ...
> 
> And Tag's Calibre 1887 isn't really their in-house movement - I give that credit to Seiko.
> 
> ...


I know exactly what you are saying. I really do. Isn't Tag's Calibre 36 or 16 or some other one they have formerly a Zenith El Primero?

That said, Tag bought both movements, so that makes them theirs. You can't buy exactly those movements in some other watch that's now currently being made.

All the best.

As my father always used to tell me, 'You see, son, there's always someone in the world worse off than you.' And I always used to think, 'So?'
- Bill Bryson, _The Lost Continent: Travels in Small Town America _


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## systemcrasher (Aug 10, 2012)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



tony20009 said:


> I know exactly what you are saying. I really do. Isn't Tag's Calibre 36 or 16 or some other one they have formerly a Zenith El Primero?
> 
> That said, Tag bought both movements, so that makes them theirs. You can't buy exactly those movements in some other watch that's now currently being made.


Yep I believe it was the Calibre 16.

Lol I dunno if buying a movement makes them "theirs" - especially for something like Calibre 1887, which even looks almost identical to Seiko's movement..

Much like Intel CPU found in Apple Computers, although Apple bought them, they are not exactly Apple CPUs, still Intel.. Zonda has specially made AMG engines that can't be found in other cars, but tis still Merc AMG engine, not Zonda engine.

I think it's still correct to say "I bought a Tag Heuer" (as an example) to talk about the watch as a whole, but for little details, i think it's different.

Almost reminds me of few threads that were going around trying to sus out what is a "Swiss Made" watch.. Many people had different ideas and standards. I guess defining "in-house movement" has similar elements of for/against arguments, especially if the supposedly in house movement is based on something else. i.e, I wouldn't say my VC Overseas has an in-house movement.

I forgot to ask earlier, where do you get the quotes from? I've seen some great quotes at the end of your posts  do you have a encyclopaedia of quotes or something? lol


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## WillMK5 (Mar 2, 2009)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



systemcrasher said:


> And Tag's Calibre 1887 isn't really their in-house movement - I give that credit to Seiko.





tony20009 said:


> I know exactly what you are saying. I really do. Isn't Tag's Calibre 36 or 16 or some other one they have formerly a Zenith El Primero?
> 
> That said, Tag bought both movements, so that makes them theirs. You can't buy exactly those movements in some other watch that's now currently being made.


Without trying to hijack this thread and turn it into _another_ Tag thread, they do have the 1969 movement, which is entirely in house and being put into the newest Carreras. There is also rumor of a 3 hand in house movement being designed. Still, you are both right about the Seiko and Zenith connections.

As for the original post, if you factor in the updated article allowing Swatch to do this, I think it is a good thing. As seen earlier today, Oris is coming out with their own movement too. I like the innovation it is forcing on the industry. It might raise some prices but there is also enough Sellita pieces around to keep prices from spiraling out of control.


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

Old news


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## brrrdn (Jun 16, 2008)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



systemcrasher said:


> And Tag's Calibre 1887 isn't really their in-house movement - I give that credit to Seiko.


I'm more interested in 1887 than 1969 because of this.


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## Sonic_driftwood (Mar 5, 2014)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

I don't know enough to argue he merits o an individual movement. But, whether or not this appears good or bad might depend more on whether you are interested in the search for cutting edge ingenuity in engineering an design or if you still want to be able to buy a good cheap swiss automatic. I know where I fall!


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



~tc~ said:


> Old news


Will you then point us to the thoughts you shared when it wasn't old news? A link will be sufficient. I won't mind reading your insightful perspectives, projections and/or ideas, even if it was some time back that you first aired them publicly.

All the best.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*

Merged with the 2006 thread.


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## Ita (Nov 6, 2013)

*Re: Whadda Ya Gotta Say About Dat?*



tony20009 said:


> I know exactly what you are saying. I really do. Isn't Tag's Calibre 36 or 16 or some other one they have formerly a Zenith El Primero?


Not sure about the Cal 16 Tony...

The ETA 7750 movement, also known as the TAG Heuer Calibre 16, is perhaps the most successful automatic chronograph movement ever produced. While it has become fashionable to regard the 7750 as a generic, "common" movement, the calibre is easily able to meet COSC Chronometre standards (in top spec) and can be found in a range of high-end watch brands, including IWC, Tudor, Panerai, Hublot and, of course, TAG Heuer.

Ita ;-)


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

tony20009 said:


> Will you then point us to the thoughts you shared when it wasn't old news? A link will be sufficient. I won't mind reading your insightful perspectives, projections and/or ideas, even if it was some time back that you first aired them publicly.
> 
> All the best.





stuffler said:


> Merged with the 2006 thread.


There you go.

People DO realize there is a "search" function right?


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

~tc~ said:


> There you go.
> 
> People DO realize there is a "search" function right?


Yes, indeed people do realize exactly that. I am one of those people. I also know that every time I've tried to use it in the past, it returns either no results or too many to be of any use.

I guess by "there you go" you are saying your thoughts are in the now merged thread? If so, I'll look for them.

All the best.


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## Rdenney (Dec 24, 2012)

~tc~ said:


> There you go.
> 
> People DO realize there is a "search" function right?


With all due respect, the search function leaves out many threads that include the key words, not to mention the general weakness of the search argument structure. I use it all the time to find threads in which I have participated, and it misses a significant percentage of them.

Tag-Heuer makes the 1887, no matter who designed it. And they make the 1969. And their caliber 36 is a Zenith movement. Their dependence on ETA is declining, and even now they use a lot of Sellita movements.

Swatch bought up all the competition in the process of "saving the industry," and forced etablisseurs to buy from them who might have previously bought from A. Schild, Nouvelle Lemania, or a range of other ebaucheries. They can hardly complain that those etablisseurs, who have never been movement manufactures, don't have other options ready to hand.

Rick "thinking real competition would require a breakup of Swatch, not forcing it to be the supermarket" Denney


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## eagle243 (Dec 27, 2017)

Anybody know the latest on this? I keep reading about it, but so far it hasn't happened yet. I've been searching on here and I haven't found useful recent threads...


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

eagle243 said:


> Anybody know the latest on this? I keep reading about it, but so far it hasn't happened yet. I've been searching on here and I haven't found useful recent threads...


Believe the Swiss government enacted measures to prevent the collapse of the affordable end of the Swiss watch industry, should Swatch go thru with their threats.

Also the rise of competitors like STP, Ronda, Soprod and Sellita, as well as Miyota, made them rethink their place in the market.


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## Juclaq (Aug 15, 2018)

Yeah, I would not worry too much. Swatch would be dumb to withhold ETA. Other brands would useother movements such as Sellita. IWC and Tag Heur are already using Sellita


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Juclaq said:


> Yeah, I would not worry too much. Swatch would be dumb to withhold ETA. Other brands would useother movements such as Sellita. IWC and Tag Heur are already using Sellita


As are Oris, Alpina, Eterna, C.Ward, plus Borealis and others are using STP.


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## Jadg (Oct 21, 2015)

Was it the threat (and indeed, it would seem, reality) of big firms substituting ETA for competing movements (like Sellita) that forced Swatch to rethink, or Swiss government action (as noted by Yankeexpress above), or a bit of both?
Has this gone away for good now?


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## obomomomo (Nov 4, 2014)

Jadg said:


> Was it the threat (and indeed, it would seem, reality) of big firms substituting ETA for competing movements (like Sellita) that forced Swatch to rethink, or Swiss government action (as noted by Yankeexpress above), or a bit of both?
> Has this gone away for good now?


Not sure what you mean by "gone away" but many brands have made the switch away from Eta as a result. Presumeably Eta/Swatchgroup's actions coincided with the expiry of any agreement to supply that may have been brokered and/or enforced onto them by the Swiss government. Also interesting to note that soon after this Eta introduced their new Powermatic movement into many of Swatchgroup brands.


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## Jadg (Oct 21, 2015)

Thank you Obomomomo.


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## BarracksSi (Feb 13, 2013)

Jadg said:


> Was it the threat (and indeed, it would seem, reality) of big firms substituting ETA for competing movements (like Sellita) that forced Swatch to rethink, or Swiss government action (as noted by Yankeexpress above), or a bit of both?
> Has this gone away for good now?


The gist of it was, SG pulling the ETA supply from everyone else as quickly as they originally planned would have left other brands without any movements at all.

The government stepped in and said, look, you can't do this yet, nobody else is ready to supply enough to fill in where you leave.

I can totally get Hayek's assertion about the risks of having all the Swiss movement eggs in the ETA basket, that if something bad happened to ETA, the entire Swiss watch industry could collapse. The supply of movements needed diversity, and Hayek had to force it to happen.


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

My understanding is, outside Swatch group, ETA only sells parts nowadays. Hard to find a micro brand using ETA complete movements - I think what you find is NOS. Besides, the new movements like Powermatic 80 are for Swatch brands only.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

There's also a lot of misrepresented info here that is repeated.

The whole deal was that previously, ETA were obliged to provide movements to anyone who asks.

The decisions thereafter were to remove this obligation (in a stepped reduction) and to allow them to say "no". Whether or not they do say "no" is a different matter altogether.

ETA is still a movement supplier.


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## eagle243 (Dec 27, 2017)

Lots of great new info here - thanks everyone!


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