# Watch Movement Decoration such as Perlage?



## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

Rob and I were discussing Watch Perlage and it's value in driving your watch making decisions. For those who may not be familiar with this term this is the machined in decoration on some higher end movements done by the manufacturer. As an example here are two brands from the Swatch group that I own that have this on their inhouse movement:

Stripes on my GO Seventies Panodate:









Movement on my Omega PO










Ball historically has not used that much purlage on it's movements until the release of the 352 movement which is a modified ETA 7750 used in the Trainmaster World Time Chronograph ( See here on the Ball site Welcome to BALL Watch . - Movement)

I've seen some here (including our reigning Ball-Athon champ) champion the use of perlage on movements or comparisons to brands that do not use as much decoration. So what are your thoughts on Perlage. Is it something you would like to see more of on Ball watches?

Let the discussion begin!


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## Balldy (Jan 14, 2009)

I'll kick it off....

Both my watches have solid case-backs (not planning to have a peek at the movements) but if I was looking for a model with the movement on view, I would want it to have no perlage at all -It reminds me too much of the aluminum tables covered in purlage which are now just about in every street when the sun is out. 

For me I would prefer plain and well finished or moderately engraved (not ornate) - perhaps just some parallel grooves.

Balldy


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## DragonDan (Dec 22, 2009)

I like the perlage, both the small circular swirls, or the Geneva stripes. It definitly is a point of pride for a manufacturer to include them


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## timefleas (Oct 10, 2008)

To me perlage is inconsistent with what I consider to be at the heart of the Ball DNA (nuts and bolts--a basic workhorse--no frills please) and thus unnecessary--and at a broader stroke, I really don't care all that much about a highly decorated movement, nor do I need an exhibition back--I wear a watch for what you see on the dial side.


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

I'm watching the perlage Discussion with definite interest, and Michael and I have a running bet as to how the flow of this discussion is going to go. To help, here is a photos of a case backs of non/minimal perlage or other decoration. This example is taken from an Oris BC3 40mm from the early 2000s that is similar to the perlage on most modern Oris watches.



















Here are a few examples of Jaeger's attractive movement decoration, but it lacks the exact "of small, overlapping circles." to fit the exact definition of perlage.


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## Doboji (Dec 21, 2011)

I won't go so far as to say perlage determines my purchase decisions in all my watches, but for a higher end, or elegant piece with a display back it's an absolute must for me. A watch is more than a tool, it's a piece of art, everything from the metalworking on the lugs, the detail on the dial, to the perlage on the movement... it's all important.

Having said that if the back is closed... I don't care... at all.

I mean look at some of these well finished movements. How can you NOT want that? Necessary for all pieces no... but for a truly elegant piece... yes.

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## djy74 (Jun 26, 2008)

I have to say, the Perlage on a movement is not the be all end all determining factor in my purchasing decision, but it is a very nice compliment to any watch.

I just purchased a Zenith Pilot Big Date Special off of Rob, and when I saw the highly decorated El Primero movement, I was in awe. It is quite beautiful.

I also had a Ball Trainmaster Pulsemeter Pro. This was my most decorated Ball Watch, and one of my favorites!


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## ~tc~ (Dec 9, 2011)

I thought it was spelled perlage.

i would prefer watches with display casebacks, and if it has a display, then I would like the movement to be as finished as possible - so, yes, I would want perlage, like my IWC:










However, like above, if the watch doesn't have a display back, I don't care.


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## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

*Watch Perlage?*



~tc~ said:


> I thought it was spelled perlage.
> 
> i would prefer watches with display casebacks, and if it has a display, then I would like the movement to be as finished as possible - so, yes, I would want perlage, like my IWC:
> 
> ...


That's what I get for relying on Google and not a dictionary. I have corrected all posts and titles. I don't want to be the person that a misspelling goes viral like deployment did for deployant! Thanks for pointing that out!


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## Uhrentraeger (Jul 16, 2012)

samanator said:


> Rob and I were discussing Watch Perlage and it's value in driving your watch making decisions. For those who may not be familiar with this term this is the machined in decoration on some higher end movements done by the manufacturer. As an example here are two brands from the Swatch group that I own that have this on their inhouse movement:
> 
> Stripes on my GO Seventies Panodate:
> 
> ...


Instead of decorated movements Ball should be using top grade movements not just for their COSC line of watches but of all their watch movements.


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## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

So I started to go through my photo albums and here are a few from Ball.

The display back was kept off of the EII series to keep the magnetic shield rating for the line. So we do not know what it looks like inside.









The Trainmaster's Power Reserve and Power Glow had similar perlage on the rotor and movement:










From other brands Zenith puts multiple finish items on the Ultra Thin Elite movement. I think one of the elements I like the most is the cut outs in the rotors.










Bremont offers this view on the Alt1-C chronograph:










For some of their LE models there are things like airplane propellers and other forms of decoration.

As far a decorated movements here are a few items I like. For conventional rotors I like the massive decorated rotors on some of the AP (3124)and VC (2450)movements. Micro rotors are a feature I like most on a dress watch with a display back so movements like the very thin Piaget movement or the Chopard LUC and GO (Theirs is kind of big compared to a few others) are pretty cool. Looking through the Watch Time movement guide here are a few standouts as far as decoration:
Corum CO-GB001 linear movement
Gerald Genta 8561 
Girard-Perreguax 9600
GO 46-12
Hermes H1
JLC 177
ALS L001.1
PP 240-SOU
Rodger Dubuis RD1429
UN -200 (Freak)

For the coming Ball In-house movement I'm hoping that Phillip Antille stays true to his Rolex heritage and gives us a 3135 type work horse movement with focus on durability and long service intervals.


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## Ben_hutcherson (Aug 27, 2011)

Perlage is a specific decorating pattern, and I haven't seen any watches in this thread decorated with perlage


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

Ben_hutcherson said:


> Perlage is a specific decorating pattern, and I haven't seen any watches in this thread decorated with perlage


A WIS Easter egg hunt! I see a couple right above your post--the Zenith and Bremont clearly have perlage applied. I think I also saw some others, but you are correct that most only seem to show Geneva stripes or other decoration.


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## dinexus (Nov 18, 2012)

I have a Glycine Airman with some beautiful Geneva Stripes, but it was hardly a factor in the purchase decision, and neither was the exhibition caseback. If I had to choose though, I'd prefer a unique rotor and thoughtful branding over any ornate perlage.

Also, this forum is starting to look suspiciously like potential fodder for next year's Ball-a-thon


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

Ben is of course correct.... Watchtime defines perlage as the following...
_A type of decoration applied to watch movements. It consists of small, overlapping circles. The word is French and means, literally, "pearling." 
_
His photo shows a movement finished in pure perlage. We have been using the word in the more general sense to refer to patterns of watch decoration, pearl shaped or otherwise. In other words, we've been using it wrong. We should probably rename the thread, "Watch Decoration such as perlage."



Ben_hutcherson said:


> Perlage is a specific decorating pattern, and I haven't seen any watches in this thread decorated with perlage


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## tanwl (Jun 7, 2011)

To me a watch that has perlage gave me a sense of vintage feel and I appreciate that.









Longines 24HRS









Ball 120yrs


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## Ben_hutcherson (Aug 27, 2011)

The traditional Ball damaskeen pattern-seen on most of their pocket watch movements-was a wide circular pattern. I've seen at least one Ball watch posted to this thread with a very similar pattern on the rotor



















To expand on my earlier comment on perlage also, I should mention that traditionally, this is a finish reserved more for unseen areas of the watch, like under the dial and between the plate. The view I show above is the pillar plate of an Illinois Sangamo Special, a movement that has a more traditional Geneva stripe finish on the bridges. Nearly all better grade American watches had perlage under the dial.


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## mick arthur (Feb 21, 2011)

In general, I like the the JLC movements below better than some of the others shown in the thread with perlage; the JLCs just scream mechanical quality. The Zenith movements shown in the thread would look just as good without the perlage; to me it's about the rotor and the way the gear sits on the bottom of the plate (someone correct me if I'm technically incorrect). I think the movement needs to be adequately finished but not necessarily decorated. Excellent thread!



robattopper said:


> I'm watching the perlage Discussion with definite interest, and Michael and I have a running bet as to how the flow of this discussion is going to go. To help, here is a photos of a case backs of non/minimal perlage or other decoration. This example is taken from an Oris BC3 40mm from the early 2000s that is similar to the perlage on most modern Oris watches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Balldy (Jan 14, 2009)

mick arthur said:


> In general, I like the the JLC movements below better than some of the others shown in the thread with perlage; the JLCs just scream mechanical quality.


+1

Being from an engineering background draws me to the look of these movements - I am probably biased towards "mechanical quality" rather than decoration - for a given cost (in time and energy invested) I would prefer the vast majority to go towards improving mechanical quality, form and function with only a minimum expended on decoration.

Its great to see varied opinions in this post - a good reminder that we are all different!

Balldy


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## robattopper (Apr 1, 2009)

*Perlage Non-Perlage Photos of Ball Trainmaster Watches*

This really should be the first or second post of this thread, and not the 19th, but these these two watch movements, and the difference in finish are what started our discussion.

First, These are a few photos of the Trainmaster 60 seconds II where the rotor is the primary decoration and that decoration is Geneva Wave Decor.








[



















and here are photos of the Trainmaster Worldtime Chronograph with the perlage decoration on the rotor and a few other components.





































Which movement style of decoration do you prefer and why?


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## timefleas (Oct 10, 2008)

*Re: Perlage Non-Perlage Photos of Ball Trainmaster Watches*

I don't see a huge difference between the two, and personally prefer the steel engraved back (with trains, planes, ships, etc.). With that said, however, IF you are going to have an exhibition back then I suppose the more ornate style of the Worldtimer would be my choice, but I think this is kind of minimalistic compared to some decorated movements that I have seen--to me, neither is worth an open window to see.


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## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

*Re: Perlage Non-Perlage Photos of Ball Trainmaster Watches*

Agree that if you put a display back on give something to look at. It would be nice to see a really decorated models in the TM line (add the EMII Officer) for the higher cost models.


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## RockfordBP (Nov 3, 2012)

*Re: Perlage Non-Perlage Photos of Ball Trainmaster Watches*

I'd prefer the first rotor on the second watch. I like where Zenith are going with the cut outs to show even more of the movement, as the filled in rotors don't really give you an overall sense of the movement like a manual wind watch with a display back does. You are there turning it this way and that to get the rotor to move around to see another bit of the movement.


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## Oklahoma (Feb 9, 2011)

I agree that if it has a display back the movement should be nice to look at. I just wish pocket watches had display backs:
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Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2


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## djy74 (Jun 26, 2008)

There are display backs for pocket watches. There were some movements in a "salesman sample" case. They are out there, you just need to look. They sell just the cases also. 
Just an example:
Vintage Hamilton Watch Co 17 Jewel Salesman Sample Pocket Watch | eBay
Thanks,
-Dan


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## Oklahoma (Feb 9, 2011)

djy74 said:


> There are display backs for pocket watches. There were some movements in a "salesman sample" case. They are out there, you just need to look. They sell just the cases also.
> Just an example:
> Vintage Hamilton Watch Co 17 Jewel Salesman Sample Pocket Watch | eBay
> Thanks,
> -Dan


I guess I should rephrase it to more pocket watches. I have started looking but most are with a movement in them already not just case only.

One of the things I like is the decoration on a movement but I have never based buying a watch because of the decoration on the movement but it has added to the total package of the watch in me liking it. Watches aren't about the movement as much as the case, dial, and design are to me, but if you ar going to make a point of showing it it should look decent not just machined metal with a name engraved on it.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Tapatalk 2


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## mt_hangglider (Feb 20, 2007)

My Speedmaster has fairly nice decoration to the movement:










The Panerai I just bought has a modified Valjoux 7750 movement with nice decoration - a good example of what I understand as perlage. (photo borrowed from web):


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## Ben_hutcherson (Aug 27, 2011)

Empty glassback cases for American PW movements are around, although many of them tend to bring fairly strong prices. I tend to save them for fairly special movements that I want to show off.

Here's a photo of one that I had handy. The movement here may not look too special, but I've managed to get some quality discussion time for it from several Illinois collectors to whom I've shown it.


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## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

Ben_hutcherson said:


> Empty glassback cases for American PW movements are around, although many of them tend to bring fairly strong prices. I tend to save them for fairly special movements that I want to show off.
> 
> Here's a photo of one that I had handy. The movement here may not look too special, but I've managed to get some quality discussion time for it from several Illinois collectors to whom I've shown it.


So what do they call that decoration in the vintage watch collectors circles? That is a beautiful piece. Is the case silver?


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## Ben_hutcherson (Aug 27, 2011)

American collectors, at least, call it damaskeen or damascene(the first spelling is the one I'm more use to). The above pattern, specifically, is called the Sunburst pattern and it's usually seen on Illinois "Bunn" grade watches, as well as a handful of other grades.

Some types of damaskeen lathes allowed a considerable amount of operator input, and the watch companies allowed the operators freedom to create their own designs. The end result was that, at least on a handful of watches from those companies, there are no two movements that are alike(or at least the number of like movements is very small). Waltham is probably best noted for this, in particular on the 1872 model American Watch Company and Am'n watch company grade, the 1883 model Crescent St. grade, and the 1892 model Vanguard grade(before sn ~7.5 million). I have examples of all of the above except for the '72 American Watch Company, although I've really concentrated on the Crescent Sts since they are the most common, least expensive, and have the most variety.














































I'm not sure what the display case is-it's fairly lightweight. I suspect that it's plated brass, or possibly white brass. It's definitely not silver.


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## DanC (Dec 25, 2010)

Balldy said:


> Being from an engineering background draws me to the look of these movements - I am probably biased towards "mechanical quality" rather than decoration - for a given cost (in time and energy invested) I would prefer the vast majority to go towards improving mechanical quality, form and function with only a minimum expended on decoration.
> Balldy


I'm the same way, and I prefer the Geneva Wave Decor pattern on the Trainmaster 60 seconds II over the perlage on the Worldtime.


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