# asking for feedbacks and advices for my hand enameled prototype



## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

First things first. I'm a long time lurker of this forum and almost everything I know about watches is thanks to this forum; there are a little few arguments that are not extensively covered.
So, big thanks to this great community.
Now back to us.
In the last Year I managed to make a dial combining italian tradition in ceramic pottery with new techniques to make it ultra-thin. There was a huge amount of trials and errors, but finally I made it. 
I made a project using my dial and a big pilot-ish case; there are still minor technical issues to solve, but overall it's ready.

Now, I would ask what Wis people think of it and how I could make it better (please be gentle with criticisms  )

case: stainless steel rose with gold pvd coating 47 mm diameter
caliber: modified sel sw200 top grade
strap, dark brown or light brown genuine alligator 22 mm wide
buckle: deployant rose gold pvd coated.


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## PeterK. (Jan 4, 2014)

Well done !
I would change the hands only,(gold tone) the dial is master piece but that is my opinion others might disagree hehe
with time you will make better dials Im sure of it .
I will pm you for one soon.


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## fredlim (Sep 22, 2015)

Very nice dial. Just feel the minute/hour hands not match the dial. I prefer to use pocket watch style hands to match the 1800s ship.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

While the hands seem very modern on that dial, I like that they offer clear contrast over such a detailed design. I would need to wear the watch to get a sense of how clear the 3,6,9,^ marks are. If you decide to make any changes, please keep the primary function of time display in mind.

All in all, it looks fabulous.


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Thanks guys, 
regarding the hands, my first choice were breguet hands, but I found it's very hard to find spare hands that fit this movement, so I settled for this ones and I was surprised that they actually look nice, I think I will set on a middle ground using classic but simple design (leaf hands are now my top choice).

About the time telling, there is a trade off between adding indexes or numbers and covering the painting, I would like to put 12 marks, but how? metal indexes? painted? I've seen big brands like jaeger le coultre when they use hand enamel dials just strip off all the numbers and the second hand.

Right now I'm working on the case design. It's 47mm too big? It fits well on my wrist but I have discovered that my wrist is quite big . Also I'm thinking to go with smoother lines on the top ring, and less bulk. like a classical dress case. What do you think?


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## fredlim (Sep 22, 2015)

Maybe plume hands also fit I think, imply the foremast/mainmast of the ship


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

nice idea, I think I'll try with both and see what happens


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## Frossty (Feb 17, 2017)

Great work on the back side. I really like the graving.

I think the dial is too colorful and to childish. In my opinion there is to little contrast between the dial an the hands in order to read them easily.


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Thank you the engraving on the back is based on a detail of the piri reis map representing a portion of South America.
Regarding the colourfullness, I'm not sure if I got what you meant. The maiolica decorations have traditionally very, very saturated colors, in facts I was carefull to not make it so saturated. What one can do to make it more "adult" is to use less colors, like one or two. I'll attach a trditional plate and a monochormatic sketch of the dial to explain.


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## PeterK. (Jan 4, 2014)

Antikitera do not be discourage by other people posts and opinion some have no clue what is involved to make dials like you did 
childish is not on your dial, an art form is.


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## MechaMind (Mar 23, 2014)

Absolutely great - would like to have your sketching skills perhaps the first dial hat too little contrast between water and sky but I can just guess how difficult it would be to estimate the appearance of a color before it was in the oven to melt....

ohh but one thing ... the date window I would drop that feature.....


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

actually there is no sky in the painting, the boat float metaphisically in the sea of the map behind, it's made on purpose, ancient map had those ships floating around, but they weren't very detailed nor with good perspective.
The date window is another dilemma, I find a kind of a waste to cover a complication if a movement has it, so I designed the decoration around that window adding navigation tracks. is it possible that in the future I'll close that window, but I have to deal with my obsessive compulsive disorder first.

I would appreciate as well suggestions with the case, nobady said anything about that.


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

ok this is the case I would like to use with that kind of dial, what do you think guys?


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## cuevobat (Jun 29, 2010)

I think it's a unique and distinctive piece of functional Jewlery. The case works well with the dial. 


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## omwelementor (Jul 13, 2017)

I will change the style of crown, maybe pumpkin shaped crown or other more elegant look style crown, the current crown are too sporty looking. And will also have same case color plating on caseback too.


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Ok, this my last design, somehow linked to my infancy, and I must say that I like it really much, I changed the numerals to romans (you don't say) and added some black dots as indices, i guess the numbers can be more precise and smaller, and the dots not so much near the border, but overall I'm satisfied.

In the end the aren't much limits on what can I do, so: someone have some cool Ideas for a decoration?


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## bqtime (May 4, 2011)

quick save, will contact you later


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## sachan (Apr 10, 2018)

I would say that hands (in my opinion) should me more vintage, but main concept just looks great!


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## Ruthless750 (Aug 18, 2013)

I like the latest image. Personally I'd say the contrast of the image is too high, since at my first glance I didn't even see the 3 and 9 o'clock numerals. I would say the image should be the base/background unless the goal is to display the image rather than the watch...


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## audiophile (Dec 1, 2017)

Love the dial, it's amazing that it's enamel. As a few others have said, the hour and minute hands don't match the overall aesthetic very well. I think Breguet style hands would be a good choice.


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## faizan1990 (Nov 28, 2016)

Looks great


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## undonewatches (Mar 9, 2016)

Great work! ceramic pottery is a beautiful touch on your Italian homage piece. Only advice we'd offer is to use skeleton hands to give more sight to your masterpiece of a dial


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## torquemada (Mar 20, 2010)

I love the dials, but:
- get rid of the date
- get rid of the numerals
- old style hands would be nice in form of an anchor, or spear


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Oh Well, it's a long time since I logged in the forum (I was sick, now I'm almost recovered).
Believe it or not after one year I'm still working on the prototypes, i'm lucky to work with probably the best ceramic artist here and we are looking for the best glaze the best glazing tecnique and the best temperature to fire it, we are almost there
some things changed frome the photos the most relevant are:
1) better movement
2) the case is like the rendered version, looks like a vintage watch from the 50's and the 60' but bigger, but not bigger as the original one as now it's 43mm
3) the hands as many of you suggested were too modern, so I opted for simple but very elegant leaf hands, the second hand too is quite elegant
4) I left the numerals only in the sail boat dial, because it's mostly a map and numbers on it recall the concept of an old map, also they don't cover much, while on the rome map the cover the best parts, I'm leaving dots to mark the hours though
5) we have made another dial with venice, with a new glaze, I'm still waiting for it to be fired, but I have some photos of it raw, I will upload them soon 
6) the date for now stays, eventually if someone let's say want it without the date we simply make one as such, it's so much simpler without.
7) we added another tecnique, using solid gold to make some details shine.


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## Philipp_Akura (Nov 6, 2017)

That's fantastic news for a great watch project! Have you got some images, would be great to see the new version!


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## BillSWPA (Feb 19, 2015)

I think your dials are absolute works of art. 

Particularly if you are considering commercializing these proto0types, I would strongly encourage registering the copyright promptly so that you have an application filing date in advance of any potential infringement. Once the registration is issued, the application filing date becomes the effective date, and having an effective date prior to infringement is critical for obtaining an award of statutory damages (as opposed to actual damages which must be proven) and attorney fees.

Readability is a high priority for me when selecting a watch, but I recognize that in a watch of this type, readability will take a back seat to the artistic design at least to some extent. With careful selection of hands and markers in colors that provide a relatively high level of contrast with the colors in the immediate background, the readability issue can be mitigated.


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## cleef16 (Feb 2, 2016)

I think you've had a very cool and original idea for this project. We can't really talk tastes as everyone has their own but here's what I'd personally prefer.

I REALLY like the fact that you gave the case back an engraved model that also follows the whole theme of the watch.

I understand what you did with the dial and I like the hour markers that you used but I would have gone with a slightly different design or maybe change the color palette around. I'd definitely change the hands with some that are not modern-looking but vintage (maybe Breguet style hands). Also they need to be a lot more visible and that's why I'd go for a different dial. The dial itself has to have visible time...

I like that you put the date where the X is on the map/dial but maybe it would have been nice for the window to be higher or, perhaps, add a magnifier/cyclops.

I, also, would have gone for a slightly different style of crown. It's alright, and it is the correct size but I feel like it doesn't entirely match with the antique/vintage vibe of the theme of the watch. Maybe an onion-style crown (or at least a modern iteration of it) would look nice.

If you really like to keep the dial, maybe consider adding the rest of the hour markers and/or at least add the minute markers. Since you're going with a bit of a map/exploration theme you could simply draw 2 lines and make a cross on the dial. Lines that connect N with S and E to W. Kind of like the watch below (you get the idea).


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## Tonystix (Nov 9, 2017)

I think you did a very nice job on the dials! Very creative!


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Ok, I have to thank you all for the advices; some of them, I must say, were already in my mind and you just confirmed things I have thoughts, in particular: breguet hands and onion crown. These are probably going to a future project if I continue in this insanity. Another thing that got me interested was baton hands that I didn't even know existed and are now in the bag for future craziness, navy related.
In the end leaf hands won because they are multi purpose and I can buy them in block and use them for different designs.

Nonetheless, I'm very interested in make some breguet hands experiment, problem is I don't know where to buy a set that fit a 2824/2892 movement if someone knows where to buy them let me know.

Now someone asked for the last developments so this is a new prototype with the Amerigo ship, in this photo the gold in the dial is not particularly shining, this is interesting, because depending on how th light is positioned it appear either as plain yellow/orange color OR as full shining gold. in the photo it is kind of middle way. this is fascinating and doesn't happens in other ceramics I've seen with the same threatment. I think is the small surface that makes the trick









This instead is the venice deal, maybe we used a too low temperature, so the surface is still rough, also the new glaze doesn't vitrificate enough and is a bit opaque , on th top of that the glazing method made the dial too thick. long story short we have to experiment and start over again. but I'm satisfied with the overall look of the painting.


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## Chronograph1987 (Apr 2, 2018)

Did you make all the watch ? Amaizing job, if you sell watches definitely i will buy one. Kind regards.


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Chronograph1987 said:


> Did you make all the watch ? Amaizing job, if you sell watches definitely i will buy one. Kind regards.


since I met Angelo I don't even paint anymore, why do that when I have befriended (and hired) the absolute best painter here, I'more kind of a director.


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## hildeant (May 2, 2018)

Hi, I like watch. What program do you use in designing your cases? If you buy your cases. Who from? Thanks Tony [email protected]


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

Meanwhile, the project is basically finished, at last.

since someone asked, the case are designed in rhinoceros, then left to an italian/swiss watch factory that transform the concept adjusting what is needed to adjust, to fit the movement

well, now some photos, this is the final stage except for some minor tweaking let me know what you think


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## MechaMind (Mar 23, 2014)

Nice! How long does it take you for such a dial to manufacture.. how often did you put it into the oven and how do you fix the applica on the dial as this seems not to be a truely cloissone enamel technique (applica seems to be upon the glass - not separating fields


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

MechaMind said:


> Nice! How long does it take you for such a dial to manufacture.. how often did you put it into the oven and how do you fix the applica on the dial as this seems not to be a truely cloissone enamel technique (applica seems to be upon the glass - not separating fields


it's quite difficult to say how much time does it take, however this is not cloissone enamel, it's maiolica, the same thing you can see in italian glazed pottery, it's sent to the oven thre times, the first to create the porcelain base (normal earthenware isn't good with such thin dial), then is glazed, left to dry, the painted, the final glass powder id added on top but is optional (it make it look more glossy) the sailboat doesn't have it , then it goes on the oven at 1000 celsius, then the gold part are painted on top, then it's fired again.

So, the main painting is made one shot, and you can't make mistakes because you can only correct the tiniest ones, and some things like a drop of water or badly mixed colours shows out only after firing.


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## usa-60 (Nov 11, 2018)

Nice models, looks great


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## MechaMind (Mar 23, 2014)

Would be another field of interest to me.. and I just have that many , yet. Buyin a muffle or the ingredienece just to figure out if it would work for me should be hard. I leave that to guys as you .. chapeau, I take my hat.. really nice work!
Just read that the dial blanks should be from pure copper since the expansion coefficent should be similar to the glass.. but I think glass and earthenware could be different as pottery often gets smallish crackles when its heatet (filled with hot soup /tea). At least as it not pure Kaolin porcelain as a base..


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## antikitera (Mar 29, 2017)

MechaMind said:


> Would be another field of interest to me.. and I just have that many , yet. Buyin a muffle or the ingredienece just to figure out if it would work for me should be hard. I leave that to guys as you .. chapeau, I take my hat.. really nice work!
> Just read that the dial blanks should be from pure copper since the expansion coefficent should be similar to the glass.. but I think glass and earthenware could be different as pottery often gets smallish crackles when its heatet (filled with hot soup /tea). At least as it not pure Kaolin porcelain as a base..


thank you for the appreciation, in the process there are many variables involved, temperature, glaze, colours and also coefficient of expansion, it's a mix of tradition, scientific knowledge and trial and errors. so it was matter to find the better experts, trying what they suggest, keeping what works and discard what didn't.


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## CRiTA thee WiSe Wiz (Dec 9, 2013)

That dial is absolutely spectacular! Maybe smaller case? Maybe a stainless case no pvd? 


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## Krispee (May 5, 2012)

This is excellent work. As an artist myself I'm really appreciating the artisan skill involved. Plus enameling is really difficult work. I've looked at it myself for my own project and it's not for the faint of heart. Lot of trial and error, lot of failures. I'd love to have a go one day but not at the moment. Nice work.


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## mahin55065 (Jul 1, 2020)

antikitera said:


> First things first. I'm a long time lurker of this forum and almost everything I know about watches is thanks to this forum; there are a little few arguments that are not extensively covered.
> So, big thanks to this great community.
> Now back to us.
> In the last Year I managed to make a dial combining italian tradition in ceramic pottery with new techniques to make it ultra-thin. There was a huge amount of trials and errors, but finally I made it.
> ...


That is a cool watch.


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## neilwatch (Jan 8, 2013)

antikitera said:


> First things first. I'm a long time lurker of this forum and almost everything I know about watches is thanks to this forum; there are a little few arguments that are not extensively covered.
> So, big thanks to this great community.
> Now back to us.
> In the last Year I managed to make a dial combining italian tradition in ceramic pottery with new techniques to make it ultra-thin. There was a huge amount of trials and errors, but finally I made it.
> ...


I Think it looks awesome. It might be cool to have small stars at five minute increments since stars were such a big part of navigation in the past.


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