# Is Panerai dead ???



## Phass

As a Pam owner ,Pam 321 , I just wanna know is panerai dead ?? Is market is slowing and soft for panerai ???


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## carlhaluss

They just seem to be going in a different direction. Lots of focus on newer, updated models, especially Submersibles this year. Less focus on the more traditional models from what I can see. Business is certainly booming at the local Panerai Boutique here in Vancouver. People seem to really like the newer Luminor Due models, and the green dial special editions.

Anyway, just my perception of how things are going.


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## Phass

Good if the business is booming , I get confused with so many Pam number .lol .also .I thought trend for big size watches is slowing a lot ..


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## DON

Sadly. I haven't paid much attention to any of the newer models since my last purchase in 2005. They held their value back then due the limited number of all the models, but now they're just producing too much and too many models that except for a very small number. Don't hold their value anymore.

Even the highly collected years of 1993 - 1999 models have lost value as Panerai copied and reproduced similar models (DLC/PVD with fake aged lum etc.)

My current two cost less than the price of the least expensive model currently available. Not worth it to me.

DON


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## T1meout

Panerai is going through rough times. It seems the brand is currently in a state of identity crisis. The brand is less popular. Global demand has declined. Most models have depreciated in value. Cost cutting manufacturing compromises, coupled with simultaneous price increases haven’t contributed either. And then there is the current trend towards smaller watches. The abundance of quality counterfeits has also had an adverse effect on the brand.

I wouldn’t consider it dead, but the brand has certainly lost some of its luster.

Regardless, I still adore my pam312 and certainly don’t intend to part with it.


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## Triton9

DON said:


> Sadly. I haven't paid much attention to any of the newer models since my last purchase in 2005. They held their value back then due the limited number of all the models, but now they're just producing too much and too many models that except for a very small number. Don't hold their value anymore.
> 
> Even the highly collected years of 1993 - 1999 models have lost value as Panerai copied and reproduced similar models (DLC/PVD with fake aged lum etc.)
> 
> My current two cost less than the price of the least expensive model currently available. Not worth it to me.
> 
> DON


From a resale point of view ,yes but from a horology and rich history. Panerai is still unique and relevant. The sandwich dial, crown guard and casing, only to panerai that make them stand out from the crowd. I bought just a year ago of a pre owned PAM 111 when the prices are already low. So no damage to me. Yes, Panerai is coming out with a lot of model but at the same time, they are also addressing the problem of using ETA movement with most in house movement that offer greater usage like longer power reserve and functional like GMT. I would love to get another Pam with in house movement(8days power reserve) when the price is right offer by one.

Panerai will still be much alive and is design alone is enough to cement a permanent place in the hall of fame of horology. Despite being 44mm case, its short lug makes it very wearable even on a 6.5 inch wrist.


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## hansbucketofbolts

I'd agree with all the above, as an NYC dweller, I often walk into boutiques on 47th street asking to see any PAM they have and they always look at me funny. One guy legitimately tried to talk me out of buying one. Listen, if I'm coming in to buy a PAM, show me the PAMs. I have not owned a PAM yet but I am personally desperate to have one. 

Seems like a lot of watches these days are losing the classic look and moving more towards a flashy or complex look. Basically, a watch that's noticeable from a distance. I admittedly have a Breitling like that, but I'm over it. I need something I can wear to work without catching attention. I need a PAM.


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## Synequano

I don’t think Panerai is dead,however currently they’re like a blind man trying to do target practice,they shoot all over the place with 38mm due,42mm and 47mm sub...and they (IMO foolishly) downgrade the luminors with snapback,one piece case and spring bar,they kind of minimize the line up on their classic 44 luminors

They should just streamline the line ups:

38mm and 40mm models should only be made in precious metal - this will differentiate the line ups,like the old 40mm zenith radiomirs,just make the 40mm models in standard metal as boutique only piece with very limited production number (100-150 a year?)

While the unique material (carbotech,bmg,composite) should only be used on 47mm or bigger case as these should be the flagship and signature pieces


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## GrussGott

Richemont bought them in 1997 as the brand was turning into THE watch to have, with huge tail winds from Hollywood (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, etc). I still remember meeting a big tech exec in the mid-aughts, complimenting him on his Panerai, and his first words were, "Thanks, you know it's watch the Italian seals use!" And then Panerai didn't do anything to move beyond their big tool-chic look into elegant-chic like Rolex and others did, yet they've continued to raise their prices as if they play in that space when they don't.

This laziness is likely what led to their new CEO hired last year, former Roger Dubuis CEO Jean-Marc Pontroué. At the beginning of this year, he's tried to pivot Panerai into both new materials paired with experiences (the sailing yacht, the South Pacific thing, etc). And IMO, their new materials are super cool and their watches look great ... for $5k or less.

Panerai is thinking they can re-justify their price points by teaming millennial-beloved experiences with their new look, but I don't think it's going to work. If they wanted to add experiences it should be factory delivery of your watch, meet the craftspeople, etc - a cool diving trip doesn't justify a $20k watch. I can buy a bracelet made by a local for $5 and it'll remind me more of the trip than a Panerai. Just my 2 cents. Plus they're still just WAY WAY too big. sure, offer some bigs, but drop to 44 and 42 already.

So, yeah, they're in big trouble, and the new CEO is trying for revival with experiences, but I think only significant price drops combined with low volumes and HQ events to drive engagement will work.

Here's an example - *this watch at $5K in 42 or 44mm sells a metric crap-ton, but it's $21k and 47mm!* Who the feck is going to buy that? If that's the plan, they're dead


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## manofrolex

GrussGott said:


> Richemont bought them in 1997 as the brand was turning into THE watch to have, with huge tail winds from Hollywood (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, etc). I still remember meeting a big tech exec in the mid-aughts, complimenting him on his Panerai, and his first words were, "Thanks, you know it's watch the Italian seals use!" And then Panerai didn't do anything to move beyond their big tool-chic look into elegant-chic like Rolex and others did, yet they've continued to raise their prices as if they play in that space when they don't.
> 
> This laziness is likely what led to their new CEO hired last year, former Roger Dubuis CEO Jean-Marc Pontroué. At the beginning of this year, he's tried to pivot Panerai into both new materials paired with experiences (the sailing yacht, the South Pacific thing, etc). And IMO, their new materials are super cool and their watches look great ... for $5k or less.
> 
> Panerai is thinking they can re-justify their price points by teaming millennial-beloved experiences with their new look, but I don't think it's going to work. If they wanted to add experiences it should be factory delivery of your watch, meet the craftspeople, etc - a cool diving trip doesn't justify a $20k watch. I can buy a bracelet made by a local for $5 and it'll remind me more of the trip than a Panerai. Just my 2 cents. Plus they're still just WAY WAY too big. sure, offer some bigs, but drop to 44 and 42 already.
> 
> So, yeah, they're in big trouble, and the new CEO is trying for revival with experiences, but I think only significant price drops combined with low volumes and HQ events to drive engagement will work.
> 
> Here's an example - *this watch at $5K in 42 or 44mm sells a metric crap-ton, but it's $21k and 47mm!* Who the feck is going to buy that? If that's the plan, they're dead
> 
> View attachment 14382373


I am not massive wristed so that eliminates most of the Panerai offerings for me.
No I would never ever consider a 47mm 21k carbortech watch no way but at 5 to 7 in 40/42 hell yeah ...

I do struggle w the brand because they have a unique look and that is nothing to sneeze at.

I like these two but w the crown guard and 100m water resistance it just doesn't compute .



















Don't think the brand is dead but they need to get cranking , re focus and stop w the LEs.. I know I can't keep up


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## GrussGott

jmanlay said:


> I like these two but w the crown guard and 100m water resistance it just doesn't compute


Totally agree! And the Panerai Luminor Due with 30m water resistance??!? For a military-derived dive watch?? Why not just sell them out of a tent at TJ Maxx? Talk about brand killing moves.

Why am I gonna buy a $20k+ dive watch from a premium brand that makes 30m crap?

This watch is $11,000, 45mm, and has 3 atm of water resistance which doesn't even qualify it as a dive watch. From Panerai. WTF are they doing??


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## manofrolex

GrussGott said:


> Totally agree! And the Panerai Luminor Due with 30m water resistance??!? For a military-derived dive watch?? Why not just sell them out of a tent at TJ Maxx? Talk about brand killing moves.
> 
> Why am I gonna buy a $20k+ dive watch from a premium brand that makes 30m crap?
> 
> This watch is $11,000, 45mm, and has 3 atm of water resistance which doesn't even qualify it as a dive watch. From Panerai. WTF are they doing??
> 
> View attachment 14382623


Shame bcs it is a pretty watch but there is no way I would ever consider the due line. To me it defeats the purpose of a Panerai which is a rugged go camping , diving 
, hunting , war fighting well ok not war fighting but you get the idea.


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## Lowrota

hansbucketofbolts said:


> I'd agree with all the above, as an NYC dweller, I often walk into boutiques on 47th street asking to see any PAM they have and they always look at me funny. One guy legitimately tried to talk me out of buying one. Listen, if I'm coming in to buy a PAM, show me the PAMs. I have not owned a PAM yet but I am personally desperate to have one.
> 
> Seems like a lot of watches these days are losing the classic look and moving more towards a flashy or complex look. Basically, a watch that's noticeable from a distance. I admittedly have a Breitling like that, but I'm over it. I need something I can wear to work without catching attention. I need a PAM.


I find the no.1 easiest brand to identify from over 2m away is Panerai - a Luminor can be spotted from miles away. If you want discreet, Panerai is not it IMO.


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## Lowrota

jmanlay said:


> Shame bcs it is a pretty watch but there is no way I would ever consider the due line. To me it defeats the purpose of a Panerai which is a rugged go camping , diving
> , hunting , war fighting well ok not war fighting but you get the idea.


My guess is its for the Asian market that want the look (slimmed down), but aren't going to hunt for the remains of Red October.


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## manofrolex

Lowrota said:


> My guess is its for the Asian market that want the look (slimmed down), but aren't going to hunt for the remains of Red October.


Could be but what's the point when you can barely wash dishes w it on...


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## RobFrost

Interesting thread. I've recently become enamored with the brand's submersible line. Love the 24/1024 and 682 (me, the faint of wrist). Shocked at how ridiculous some of the models are priced though...I'm probably forced to go 2nd hand just to afford one. Hoping prices come down, but realistically, it's not going to happen.


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## Phass

hansbucketofbolts said:


> I'd agree with all the above, as an NYC dweller, I often walk into boutiques on 47th street asking to see any PAM they have and they always look at me funny. One guy legitimately tried to talk me out of buying one. Listen, if I'm coming in to buy a PAM, show me the PAMs. I have not owned a PAM yet but I am personally desperate to have one.
> 
> Seems like a lot of watches these days are losing the classic look and moving more towards a flashy or complex look. Basically, a watch that's noticeable from a distance. I admittedly have a Breitling like that, but I'm over it. I need something I can wear to work without catching attention. I need a PAM.


So the guy actually not showing any Pams to you ??? So he just talking ........ and no sense ...


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## Synequano

Due is total mess,they should just redo the classic 40/42mm radiomirs for slim,somewhat dressy watch with still respectable WR (100m)










This 338 has 100m WR and still retain the classic Panerai trait


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## Stephen2020

Their aficionado base is built on their history, but they want to flush that down the toilet and churn out Pretenderai Due's.
After a nuclear war the only things surviving will be cockroaches and Panerai "owning" the Marina Militare name.


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## Mystro

(30 years Rolex owner as well as other brands in collection) As I see it:

Panerai at the top end is alive and well as they are actually advancing their watches and movements in every aspect. I will go on record in saying Panerai's top models are better built with a better movement than my latest hot Rolex model with their newest movement which is very good and finally using rotor bearings and a 72hr PR. Rolex movements are finally catching up the the rest of the industry and nothing more. My latest Carbotech with P.9010 movement just tested with over 80 hours of mainspring power reserve. b-)

The exotic material Panerai is punching way above its msrp at the AP forged carbon buyer. Panerai is aiming more upscale with these lines of watches. The DUO line is a mistake but doesnt alter what their top tier line is doing much like Porsche building mico SUV's. We will put up with it as long as the halo line doesnt go away.

The Panerai preowned market is also strong with the exotic materials. I have been watching them for over a year. Panerai is crushing it with their new in-house movements and using exotic materials like Carbotech and BMG. 
They are magnificent but* you have to be a watch enthusiast to recognize this*. The flippers and status brand seekers are picking on Rolex bones now. I am more on fire now with the direction of Panerai than ever before as Panerai is back to being a enthusiast brand.

Carbotech is a gamechanger. Tougher and lighter than titanium and as scratch resistant as ceramic.

44mm Pam 661 Carbotech.


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## Rotaz

Well said. That carbontech is nice wish they made 40mm sizes as it's harder for me wear the 44mm sizes these days.



Mystro said:


> (30 years Rolex owner as well as other brands in collection) As I see it:
> 
> Panerai at the top end is alive and well as they are actually advancing their watches and movements in every aspect. I will go on record in saying Panerai's top models are better built with a better movement than my latest hot Rolex model with their newest movement which is very good and finally using rotor bearings and a 72hr PR. Rolex movements are finally catching up the the rest of the industry and nothing more. My latest Carbotech with P.9010 movement just tested with over 80 hours of mainspring power reserve.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The exotic material Panerai is punching way above its msrp at the AP forged carbon buyer. Panerai is aiming more upscale with these lines of watches. The DUO line is a mistake but doesnt alter what their top tier line is doing much like Porsche building mico SUV's. We will put up with it as long as the halo line doesnt go away.
> 
> The Panerai preowned market is also strong with the exotic materials. I have been watching them for over a year. Panerai is crushing it with their new in-house movements and using exotic materials like Carbotech and BMG.
> They are magnificent but* you have to be a watch enthusiast to recognize this*. The flippers and status brand seekers are picking on Rolex bones now. I am more on fire now with the direction of Panerai than ever before as Panerai is back to being a enthusiast brand.
> 
> Carbotech is a gamechanger. Tougher and lighter than titanium and as scratch resistant as ceramic.
> 
> 44mm Pam 661 Carbotech.


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## Synequano

Usually panerai only made watches in unique materials with bigger case size and carbotech is already light,smaller case might not work with this material - I say might as I haven’t had a chance to try the smaller carbotechs (960)

960 is 42mm,that might be suitable for those looking for smaller pam in unique material...it’ll fit smaller too due to darker case color...


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## Mystro

Rotaz said:


> Well said. That carbontech is nice wish they made 40mm sizes as it's harder for me wear the 44mm sizes these days.


Try the 44mm Carbotech. It is soo light and flat I would imagine about anyone that can wear a 40mm can wear it. It disappears on the wrist it's so comfortable.


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## manofrolex

Mystro said:


> (30 years Rolex owner as well as other brands in collection) As I see it:
> 
> Panerai at the top end is alive and well as they are actually advancing their watches and movements in every aspect. I will go on record in saying Panerai's top models are better built with a better movement than my latest hot Rolex model with their newest movement which is very good and finally using rotor bearings and a 72hr PR. Rolex movements are finally catching up the the rest of the industry and nothing more. My latest Carbotech with P.9010 movement just tested with over 80 hours of mainspring power reserve. b-)
> 
> The exotic material Panerai is punching way above its msrp at the AP forged carbon buyer. Panerai is aiming more upscale with these lines of watches. The DUO line is a mistake but doesnt alter what their top tier line is doing much like Porsche building mico SUV's. We will put up with it as long as the halo line doesnt go away.
> 
> The Panerai preowned market is also strong with the exotic materials. I have been watching them for over a year. Panerai is crushing it with their new in-house movements and using exotic materials like Carbotech and BMG.
> They are magnificent but* you have to be a watch enthusiast to recognize this*. The flippers and status brand seekers are picking on Rolex bones now. I am more on fire now with the direction of Panerai than ever before as Panerai is back to being a enthusiast brand.
> 
> Carbotech is a gamechanger. Tougher and lighter than titanium and as scratch resistant as ceramic.
> 
> 44mm Pam 661 Carbotech.


BMG is great, strength to weight ratio is twice Ti but it is also not too hard to make and not very pricey either and can be used via injection molding so yeah why is it a lot more ???? I guess it sounds cool and it is great for a watch case since a lot harder than ss

Carbotech just looks like plastic to me but your picture looks nice


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## phaphaphooey

They need to stick with what they know and focus on their strengths


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## andyprice

The panerai family for 140 years used the best components - rolex movements provided by cortebert - then richemont bought the name rights in 1998 , shut everything in italy, and began to reproduce these wonderful watch designs with an eta 6497 movement inside - a $50 movement in a $5000 watch !!. eventually all new Panerai will go in the bin and the vintage models will be worth millions . vw own rolls royce - imagine if vw started putting their skoda engines in rolls royce's instead . this approach doesnt tend to work for long


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## koolpep

andyprice said:


> The panerai family for 140 years used the best components - rolex movements provided by cortebert - then richemont bought the name rights in 1998 , shut everything in italy, and began to reproduce these wonderful watch designs with an eta 6497 movement inside - a $50 movement in a $5000 watch !!. eventually all new Panerai will go in the bin and the vintage models will be worth millions . vw own rolls royce - imagine if vw started putting their skoda engines in rolls royce's instead . this approach doesnt tend to work for long


But Andy, all current model Panerais have in-house movements. Pretty good ones, hence the 8 year warranty.

Also nitpicking, Rolex didn't make movements until they took over the (exclusive to Rolex) supplier Aigler in 2004. 

Also Rolex used Valjoux based movements and Zenith El-Primero based movement in their Daytona - funny enough the zenith movement Rolex' are the most sought after today.

Adding my Panerai (maybe I get another one soon) price over the years:










This is not bad at all - even if you bought at a peak - you didn't lose that much compared to other brands.It's not dead - I think they are coming back. More and more people seem to get into the brand again....when I talk to my watch buddies.


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## wsarmstrong

I see a lot of these Panerai dead threads. Far from it. It’s not Rolex, or even Omega, but after those 2, it’s right there. For instance, I’d say it’s more popular than IWC, Tudor or Zenith.


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## Bobcat Sig

Panerai isn't dead. But it is the topic de jour for a lot of watch influencers (and I use that term lightly) and YouTube bros. These crimefighters need content to churn out. Need something new? Find a new brand to discuss or deride. In this case, Panerai is it. You see it with all the big brands.

In the end, it's all about eyeballs. So if you can make a salacious claim about a popular luxury brand, you're bound to get some clicks.

The other thing that seldom gets mentioned in regards to the above; a lot of these internet watch bros (read: influencers) don't have large wrists. So naturally, they aren't too keen on a big-cased watch brand like Panerai.


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## EyeDoubleYouSee

wsarmstrong said:


> I see a lot of these Panerai dead threads. Far from it. It's not Rolex, or even Omega, but after those 2, it's right there. For instance, I'd say it's more popular than IWC, Tudor or Zenith.


It's definitely not the horological equivalent of Omega or Rolex, but from a look standpoint it does its own thing and does it well. Can't really ask for something better than that.


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## espresso&watches

RotorSelfWinding said:


> It's definitely not the horological equivalent of Omega or Rolex


And what exactly does that mean? Not the "equivalent" in terms of popularity with the general public, or not equivalent in terms of watchmaking prowess?


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## mtnslyr

According to consignment site therealreal.com, Panerai was the fastest selling luxury men's watch in 2020. It sold 1.3 times faster in 2020 than the year before. Here's the full report https://realstyle.therealreal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Final2021Resale-Report.pdf.
The report has some old news like Rolex is still the king, and also some new insight like Frank Muller had the highest bump in resale price. If u ask me Frank Muller is riding the Richard Mille wave.


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## EyeDoubleYouSee

espresso&watches said:


> And what exactly does that mean? Not the "equivalent" in terms of popularity with the general public, or not equivalent in terms of watchmaking prowess?


Omega and Rolex make better movements. They are better at the inner workings of a Watch.
It's not a controversial statement tbh


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## bigclive2011

RotorSelfWinding said:


> Omega and Rolex make better movements. They are better at the inner workings of a Watch.
> It's not a controversial statement tbh


I think in the old days of eta you would have been spot on, where Omega and Rolex were definetly ahead.

But nowadays with their in house movement plant that has produced all sorts of advanced engines, including an amazing tourbillion I think they have caught up in that department as well.


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## espresso&watches

RotorSelfWinding said:


> Omega and Rolex make better movements. They are better at the inner workings of a Watch.
> It's not a controversial statement tbh


I own examples of each, and I'd beg to differ.


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## bigclive2011

I think that this might have Rolex and Omega licked?


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## jalquiza

bigclive2011 said:


> View attachment 15680778
> 
> 
> I think that this might have Rolex and Omega licked?


I personally don't think it's about squeezing off one as-complicated-as-possible movement; this example really has no known and accepted level of accuracy and longevity.

I'd think about it more in terms of the median offering, and the Omega 8900 and 9300 movements pervasive among their lineup are stellar movements (IMO with significantly more to offer than both Pan. and Rolex).


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## skorN83

I have a 1321, It is a great movement, with a true GMT hand. It also resets the second hand to zero when setting the time, very handy and something I haven't seen many other watches have.

The quality of the case is sensational, all in all it is an excellent package and feels worth the asking price (although available much cheaper)

I have a ceramic 292 Radiomir, again, it is very well made for the money. A real bargain at the prices it is going for.


That said, I do feel that Panerai have lose their way. I really struggle to understand the 3atm WR in the Due model, especially given the asking price. It seems like a real FU to fans of the brand that their latest release is not even suitable for swimming. A poor reflection on the brand with such strong links to Navy/Military.

Also, the fact that the sandwich dial has been removed from all entry level models is terrible. Is there even a hand wind Luminor with sandwich dial available from their current line any more?


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## Bobcat Sig

skorN83 said:


> I have a 1321, It is a great movement, with a true GMT hand. It also resets the second hand to zero when setting the time, very handy and something I haven't seen many other watches have.
> 
> The quality of the case is sensational, all in all it is an excellent package and feels worth the asking price (although available much cheaper)
> 
> I have a ceramic 292 Radiomir, again, it is very well made for the money. A real bargain at the prices it is going for.
> 
> That said, I do feel that Panerai have lose their way. I really struggle to understand the 3atm WR in the Due model, especially given the asking price. It seems like a real FU to fans of the brand that their latest release is not even suitable for swimming. A poor reflection on the brand with such strong links to Navy/Military.
> 
> Also, the fact that the sandwich dial has been removed from all entry level models is terrible. Is there even a hand wind Luminor with sandwich dial available from their current line any more?


I'm new to Panerai and the brand, so what I'm about to type is all from a beginner's mindset, objectively speaking...

Initially, I didn't understand the Due hate or even what a Due was. After a bit of chain down rabbit holes, I figured it out. While I agree with the sentiments of the Due, I do understand why Panerai introduced that line. Mainly, I suspect, it's for them to offer an entry into the brand at a lower price. Yes, Panerai and its provenance command a higher water resistance rating, but if you're trying to get new watch buyers in, you need to reduce cost somewhere. And in this case; it's water resistance.

Therefore, you hold the features that define Panerai for the up-spec models; the sandwich dial, the diver water resistance, and so on.

I'd also say that Panerai, when compared to other brands like Omega and Rolex, doesn't quite have the market cache, so that's why they expanded the offering with Due. Companies like Rolex or in the case of Omega's inclusion in the Swatch Group don't need to offer lower-spec watches. Rolex has the brand value that they don't need to offer such watches and Omega has other brands like Longines and Hamilton to fill those slots. Panerai has neither.


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## skorN83

Bobcat Sig said:


> I'm new to Panerai and the brand, so what I'm about to type is all from a beginner's mindset, objectively speaking...
> 
> Initially, I didn't understand the Due hate or even what a Due was. After a bit of chain down rabbit holes, I figured it out. While I agree with the sentiments of the Due, I do understand why Panerai introduced that line. Mainly, I suspect, it's for them to offer an entry into the brand at a lower price. Yes, Panerai and its provenance command a higher water resistance rating, but if you're trying to get new watch buyers in, you need to reduce cost somewhere. And in this case; it's water resistance.
> 
> Therefore, you hold the features that define Panerai for the up-spec models; the sandwich dial, the diver water resistance, and so on.
> 
> I'd also say that Panerai, when compared to other brands like Omega and Rolex, doesn't quite have the market cache, so that's why they expanded the offering with Due. Companies like Rolex or in the case of Omega's inclusion in the Swatch Group don't need to offer lower-spec watches. Rolex has the brand value that they don't need to offer such watches and Omega has other brands like Longines and Hamilton to fill those slots. Panerai has neither.


The Due is not their entry level model, it is actually priced quite high, which makes it even worse.

With regards to cost cutting, if the likes of Hamilton & Tissot can provide 10atm + watches in sub $500 pieces, how much is that screw-down caseback and crown gasket costing? These are watches that cost $8000 and look like dive watches, pathetic you can barely get them wet.

Also I think you will find Panerai has a market cache equal too if not bigger than Omega. It is one of the strongest brands and has been for a long time.


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## espresso&watches

skorN83 said:


> The Due is not their entry level model, it is actually priced quite high, which makes it even worse.


Yes, but the Due line is Panerai's foray into dress watches. The water resistance - and price point - is in line with that category. I can't begrudge them for that, but I suppose that's more of a philosophical discussion.



skorN83 said:


> With regards to cost cutting, if the likes of Hamilton & Tissot can provide 10atm + watches in sub $500 pieces, how much is that screw-down caseback and crown gasket costing? These are watches that cost $8000 and look like dive watches, pathetic you can barely get them wet.


Seems like your issue is with the Due line specifically. The updated Base models have 100m (10atm) water resistance, though I do agree that the snap, solid case back and lower WR than their predecessors is an odd choice (though this has been discussed ad nauseam).

But Bobcat Sig raises a valid point - it's not uncommon for brands to reserve their most desirable design language/features for higher end models, and Panerai is clearly taking that approach. I can't begrudge them for that either, though if I were in a position where my budget only allowed for the entry level models, I can imagine that I would feel differently.



skorN83 said:


> Also I think you will find Panerai has a market cache equal too if not bigger than Omega. It is one of the strongest brands and has been for a long time.


Agreed. At least where I live, I see Panerai's more than any other luxury watch; Rolex and Omega are a close second.


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## Bobcat Sig

skorN83 said:


> The Due is not their entry level model, it is actually priced quite high, which makes it even worse.
> 
> With regards to cost cutting, if the likes of Hamilton & Tissot can provide 10atm + watches in sub $500 pieces, how much is that screw-down caseback and crown gasket costing? These are watches that cost $8000 and look like dive watches, pathetic you can barely get them wet.
> 
> Also I think you will find Panerai has a market cache equal too if not bigger than Omega. It is one of the strongest brands and has been for a long time.


Like I said; it was my take as a new entrant into this watch passion.


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## jalquiza

skorN83 said:


> The Due is not their entry level model, it is actually priced quite high, which makes it even worse.
> 
> With regards to cost cutting, if the likes of Hamilton & Tissot can provide 10atm + watches in sub $500 pieces, how much is that screw-down caseback and crown gasket costing? These are watches that cost $8000 and look like dive watches, pathetic you can barely get them wet.
> 
> Also I think you will find Panerai has a market cache equal too if not bigger than Omega. It is one of the strongest brands and has been for a long time.


I sometimes wonder if the Due are actually more water resistant than advertised but Panerai didn't want the line to appear "just as good but suddenly so much more slim" and wanted to retain some some differentiator.

Regarding the discussion as a whole, I'm amazed for them having what feels like 80 models available now following a history of 800 models that there's not one brushed 42mm Luminor 2 hander. Think 562 but 42mm case.


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## fenian

Even though I still adore Panerai, in the last few years it bothers me that Richemont seems to be making the conscious choice of cheapening the brand in the very area that brings us all into it--the Luminor Base & Marinas. "Snap back" casebacks (with a dubious 100m) and springbars? Sometimes I think the best bang-for-buck and "all you'll ever need" Panerais are the basic Luminor models from years past: Zero, 111/112, 510/560, etc.


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## EyeDoubleYouSee

fenian said:


> Even though I still adore Panerai, in the last few years it bothers me that Richemont seems to be making the conscious choice of cheapening the brand in the very area that brings us all into it--the Luminor Base & Marinas. "Snap back" casebacks (with a dubious 100m) and springbars? *Sometimes I think the best bang-for-buck and "all you'll ever need" Panerais are the basic Luminor models from years past: Zero, 111/112, 510/560, etc.*


I definitely get that. What's the new one now? The 915 or something like that? I do feel like Panerai could get away with a huge cut back on the number of models in stainless steel and then build from there. I would love to know why the Due is the way it is (I suppose precious metals aren't meant to be divers)

Make a Luminor, Radiomir, Submersible each with a 3 hand model and a GMT model. Put power reserves on the back of all of them. Make the Luminor, Submersible models manual and the Radiomirs automatic.

Deal with special materials on a case by case basis.

The 400 different models each with a different collection of complications is too much.


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## fenian

RotorSelfWinding said:


> I definitely get that. What's the new one now? The 915 or something like that? I do feel like Panerai could get away with a huge cut back on the number of models in stainless steel and then build from there. I would love to know why the Due is the way it is (I suppose precious metals aren't meant to be divers)


I sort of get the where&why of the Due...dressy, smaller, not meant as a sports model. Ok, understood. A new line created. Not for me, but I kind of get it.


RotorSelfWinding said:


> Make a Luminor, Radiomir, Submersible each with a 3 hand model and a GMT model. Put power reserves on the back of all of them. Make the Luminor, Submersible models manual and the Radiomirs automatic.


Great ideas. I've always loved the idea of a manual-wind Submersible!


RotorSelfWinding said:


> Deal with special materials on a case by case basis.


The way I've heard it explained--it was decided that the Submersible "platform" would be the avant-garde, experimental (materials) side of the Panerai house--as we've now seen for the last number of years.


RotorSelfWinding said:


> The 400 different models each with a different collection of complications is too much.


Far too many.


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## FQ01

They are making another Hublot level hated brand out of a very loved brand with a huge fan base. I'll take 000/005/111/112 or 56x line over any modern reference, and for a quarter of MSRP! 

On the other hand, I feel like it's a fantastic time to pick up older references from the market. Price will not go much further from this level, so at worst you'll lose ~10% for a chance to try a very nice watch!

I enjoy my 590 and 024 Sub a lot. 112/176 and 233 are on my wishlist. Not even considering anything from current line, not even with a discount

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## EyeDoubleYouSee

I wouldn't go that far, but I get your point. The 111 is a solid purchase, for sure.


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## MisterPam

No, it's not dead. In used market, I sold them pretty fast.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## dave.trnr1

manofrolex said:


> I am not massive wristed so that eliminates most of the Panerai offerings for me.
> No I would never ever consider a 47mm 21k carbortech watch no way but at 5 to 7 in 40/42 hell yeah ...
> 
> I do struggle w the brand because they have a unique look and that is nothing to sneeze at.
> 
> I like these two but w the crown guard and 100m water resistance it just doesn't compute .
> 
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> Don't think the brand is dead but they need to get cranking , re focus and stop w the LEs.. I know I can't keep up


Silly question how many times are you going to go over 100m deep, unless you are a pro diver.


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## brianinCA

I wouldn’t say dead, but they need to get it together. Their prices are way out of whack. 

Also, their marketing has issues when models that haven’t even been announced publicly yet are already at the boutique (for example the 40mm PAM 01272 which has yet to be announced but I came across recently at a Panerai boutique).

I do like their decision to make thinner, smaller (38-40mm) watches though.


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## dave.trnr1

They are far from dead just bought a 3day gmt and love it, looking at which one to buy next.


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## Lugan

brianinCA said:


> ... their marketing has issues ...


Agreed, and I'd put a barely functioning website at the top of this list. So many images and links broken, incomplete information, and recently removed ability to filter. It's got to be the worst website in the industry. It would have been embarrassing in 2005, but in 2021, it beggars belief.


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