# helvetia aviator watch 1930's



## foil_guy (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi just bought this watch, impulse really. It was priced right at £80. Bought from a site that usually is full of converted pocket watches, or redials. But this looked authentic. Afterward did alot of digging and found out that it was a type of watch known as the '1928 german military pattern'. basically aviator watches for german pilots, without military marking due to conditions of the versailles treaty. They where made by a host of makers, omega, oris, heuer, natalis, helvetia, seems around 10-20 all told. I've seen them on online sites go from $400-£10,000....there's reference in both Knirim's and Wesolowski's books about them.

Thought i'd share the pic's not sure if i should get restored. Have even managed to find the exact watch, which looks like it has been restored on the Farfo site.










below images of restored Helvetia found on Farfo. Not sure which has the original crown, the this one or mine. Seems this type of watch sported both types.









anyone have any thoughts on these types of watches? Known by some as early 'Luftwaffe' watches.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

First of all: congratulations on a very typical watch, and an aviation classic! :-!

I have been trying to do some research on this type of early aviation watches for some time: I am fascinated by them because they are basically rugged, with a time-measuring mechanism (the rotatable bezel), yet "tools" in a very subdued sense (black dials, luminescent numerals and hands) but perfectly wearable without being "in your face". 

Not sure about the crown on your watch, but the triangle-shaped pointer appears to be missing from the bezel.

Can you tell us something about the crystal type? On many of those watches, both the pointer and the crystal were affixed to the bezel and turned with it, rather than the present-day system of having the crystal extraneous to the bezel and part of the case.

I am not sure to what extent these watches were exclusively "1928 german military pattern" - there seem to have been so many makers of this type of watches that I am inclined to consider them a generic type of the late 1920s to late 1930s, for many countries, and for both civilian and military pilots. (Of course, this would mean that the watch was used by the German Reichswehr in their aviation enterprises, many of them conducted in and with the aid of the Soviet Union, as well) 

I'd be interested to learn where you found the "1928 german military pattern" designation.


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## foil_guy (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi, can't give you any details yet, as the watch is in transit, hopefully to arrive at my doorstep within the next week or so (touch wood). I'm guessing that like my Czech Longines, it will rotate with the glass. As to the reference '1928 german military pattern'. I read this regarding a Natalis and several other watches, Helvetia being one. indeed it was repeated on several Forum sites. One site of note being http://germanwatch.proboards43.com/index.cgi

Where i found a whole host of images and comments. Here's some great pics i found of a range of these fascinating watches.

Oh sorry, just seen that you've seen these beauties in an earlier discussion (several years ago!!)....hope readers still get a buzz out of looking at these beauties all the same. will post info on the watch when i get it.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

It's finally in right hands......


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Congratulations! :-!


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## whifferdill (Jan 11, 2007)

Congrats on a very special find! As an aside and out of interest - any chance of a few pics of that Czech Longines you mention? I have a soft spot for those amongst this type of early pilot watch.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

Crusader said:


> Congratulations! :-!


Thanks!


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

A wonderful find! You asked about restoration, Foilguy? In my opinion, I would ONLY have the movement restored/serviced and the dial cleaned ONLY. To restore it would remove its charm and history.


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

Hi , I just wanted to share a few additions to my collection. Great watches. Thanks Jerry

As you can see I purchased "Zero Hour" and found it to be very interesting and informative. My only disappointment is that this type of watch is not mentioned even when a Zenith Special is found on the book cover. I wondered why ?


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Wonderful watches ! :-!



pilotswatch said:


> My only disappointment is that this type of watch is not mentioned even when a Zenith Special is found on the book cover. I wondered why ?


This type of watch, while being produced by a great number of companies and apparently very popular, is much underrated.

I wish someone other than IWC would make a modern homage to these unobtrusive yet highly functional and dignified watches which were tool watches without being "in your face". b-)


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

pilotswatch said:


> Hi , I just wanted to share a few additions to my collection. Great watches.


Yes,great watches.:-!


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

Here are some pictures of my Longines . I know there are a few things that need to be changed because they are not original. In due time. This was a trade in Paris a few years back.


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## Jerry68 (Jul 23, 2008)

Glad you liked them.
I'm also glad they went to a good home.

Jerry


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## whifferdill (Jan 11, 2007)

pilotswatch said:


> Here are some pictures of my Longines . I know there are a few things that need to be changed because they are not original. In due time. This was a trade in Paris a few years back.


Fantastic all the same and thanks! I love these watches - must get one when I have a decent enough excuse!


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

Third luck.....


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## Billy (Mar 1, 2006)

pilotswatch said:


> Hi , I just wanted to share a few additions to my collection. Great watches. Thanks Jerry
> 
> As you can see I purchased "Zero Hour" and found it to be very interesting and informative. My only disappointment is that this type of watch is not mentioned even when a Zenith Special is found on the book cover. I wondered why ?


Sorry to disappoint - the biggest reason i didn't include the Zenith Special was the fact i was only interested in covering watches i was certain were military issued examples (no military "style" or civilian counterparts). I never came across images of an example i was sure had been issued and thus left them out of the book.

Kind Regards - Billy


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

There is indeed a huge gap of knowledge concerning this style of aviation watches (black face, Arabic numerals, small seconds, neutral bi-directional bezel with marker, distinctive fixed bars). The uniformity, and the number of makers, seem to suggest some sort of standardization which could in turn point to the military as a commissioning authority, perhaps with a spill-off of the design to the civilian market.

In Germany, these watches are usually described as issued by the German military pre-WWII (there is a reference in Knirim about this), but I have seen little, if any, evidence to that effect. So by Billy's strict standards, they are indeed very difficult to consider "issued" (and I myself don't describe them as such), unless you are looking at the CAF Lemania, which is of the same type and was indeed issued.

I am very keen to see if soemeone unearths more about the origin of the uniform design of these distinctive 1930s aviation watches, and their possible connection with military aviation.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Just an idea (stupid): Could a guy like Helmuth Sinn know something? I know he is one generation too young, but maybe he knows something?


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

Janne said:


> Just an idea (stupid): Could a guy like Helmuth Sinn know something? I know he is one generation too young, but maybe he knows something?


That is actually a pretty good idea, Janne. b-)


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

Hi,
Very nice watch. Did you know the the name "Montbrillant" was used by Breitling in its early years. Can you show pics of the back cover and movement?


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Crusader said:


> That is actually a pretty good idea, Janne. b-)


Thanks Crusader! I do not know if "The Man" talks english. Somebody German speaking should email him (or rather email his company, to be forwarded to him). 
When that generation is gone, so much info will be lost!


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## ecalzo (Oct 18, 2006)

wonderful pics


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

pilotswatch said:


> Hi,
> Very nice watch. Did you know the the name "Montbrillant" was used by Breitling in its early years. Can you show pics of the back cover and movement?


Considering opinion of some guys on "Vintage" forum,this shuold be a Breitling.Please see for yourself:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=189701

Regards!

Cris.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

New "flieger" in the collection-Swiss "Rellum" aviator wrist watch from 1930's:


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

Great watch. How about a group shot of your Flieger aviator's watches.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

pilotswatch said:


> Great watch. How about a group shot of your Flieger aviator's watches.


Thanks PW!

It's still s small family of fliegers that I own-theres only 5. of them,so I'll wait for a while before I take a group shot of that family.I will not try to catch up with you,but will wait for some time till few new fliegers come.Sorry.

What do you think about that movement of this "Rellum"?Gays from "Vintage" forum have some doubts about authenticity of that movement.


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

In "Military Timepieces" by Z.M Wesolowski on page 92. He mentions that a Natalis aviator watch used an early cylinder movements. " Perhaps the watchmaker was making economical use of old stock movements?"

This is a movement found in a "Avia special" aviator watch I have,but as you can see it has been modified.

Hope to see your group shot soon.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

pilotswatch said:


> In "Military Timepieces" by Z.M Wesolowski on page 92. He mentions that a Natalis aviator watch used an early cylinder movements. " Perhaps the watchmaker was making economical use of old stock movements?"
> 
> This is a movement found in a "Avia special" aviator watch I have,but as you can see it has been modified.
> 
> Hope to see your group shot soon.


Thanks for the info.:thanks


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## pilotswatch (Nov 9, 2006)

This is a picture of an other Avia special I found on the net. Same as mine and close to yours. As a conclusion I do believe they used older pocket watch movements in this type of watch.


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## jedanzoom (Mar 29, 2008)

pilotswatch said:


> This is a picture of an other Avia special I found on the net. Same as mine and close to yours. As a conclusion I do believe they used older pocket watch movements in this type of watch.


Thanks again-its good enough to me.
"Rellum" was maker of an trench watches back in WWI.,started as "Bellum" but for some reason they changed brand name in "Rellum".They were obviously oriented on military watches for couple decades.


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