# The Citizen Chronomaster AQ4041-54L: Simply superb



## jandrese

This is Citizen's The Citizen Chronomaster AQ4041-54L. It is simply superb. Making a 3-hander this perfect isn't easy. Making a 3-hander that can be studied endlessly is supreme attention to detail and elevated craft. This is haute horology standing shoulder to shoulder with the best in terms of fit and finish. In terms of precision it slays all save its newest sibling the 0100 movement. +/- 5 spy, please, Grand Seiko take a seat, I've got this. Same with hard coated titanium and non-glare crystal. I have Grand Seiko watches with equivalent case finishing, but not in titanium. Better than Grand Seiko case finishing makes this among the best of the best at any price. The tin plate black polish facets are more delicate, flatter, and more reflective than Grand Seiko's in titanium. This also kills in features: perpetual calendar, power reserve indicator, seconds hand reset, shock protection/time reset, minute hand and marker alignment at zero, Eco-drive with many months of in the dark power capacity, 100m WR, etc. As a time keeper, and as a piece of hand crafted wrist art nothing touches The Citizen, this Citizen. 

Mercurial blue sunburst dial with a hint of red and a leaning towards turquoise. This is in the shade. See below for full high beam reflections. Hand beveled perfectly polished hands and applied indicies. Unlike GS the tops of the markers are not polished, they feature a strip of white, which helps in legibility similar to how GS lines the tops on dark dialed models. Can just see the solar cell beneath the dial. The seconds hand lines up perfectly too. The perfect dead beat seconds similar to GS but the action of the seconds hand is different. I don't believe Citizen uses an anti backlash mechanism like GS. 















The lugs feature many angles and polishes that are super delicate and ultra precise. Intense that this was done by hand. Beveled bracelet links and a mix of high polish and satin. This is AP level work except that AP can't do this in titanium.








Twin trigger release buckle is secure and way over engineered with very precise machining even on the parts that can't easily be seen.








Look at that case flank. The crown is inset some for looks more than protection. The case sides angle in towards the bezel and feature very fine and refined horizontal satin finish. The bracelet is thin, supple, and precision made. Comfort and high craft.








Even the case back is good looking and well finished. Polished and stone finish emblem. 








It sparkles! Hello perfect mirrors. 








Eat up this picture. Gorgeous. The Citizen indeed. The Swiss can't do any of this, save finishing, but they can't do that at less than 10-fold the price. Kudos Citizen. Keep it up, I'll keep buying.


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## GaryK30

Thanks for the write up and the photos. This is a beautiful, accurate and well made watch.


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## gangrel

I don't think there's been a less than exceptional watch in the AQ4000's that are, say, 4020 and above. Last 3-4 groups have been stunning.


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## espiga

Thank you, very much jandrese for the pictures and review.
Beautiful watch, enjoy it to the fullest.

Best regards.


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## Ottovonn

I enjoyed your presentation on the AQ4041 immensely -- and, of course, the photos! I also know what you mean about the subtle tint of red. I haven't peeled off the back sticker on mine, so I wasn't aware that the eagle emblem had that level of detail. One of your photos reveals a speckled, grainy texture around the eagle, which I missed. You also delved into the high level of artisanship that isn't immediately apparent in stock sales photos. Like Grand Seiko, the AQ4041 is a watch with subtle beauty becomes more evident the closer you look at it.

This amazing Citizen needs more exposure, so I'm happy seeing more threads about it. Even though I've had the watch for about a month, I continue to be wowed by it.


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## jandrese

Ottovonn said:


> I enjoyed your presentation on the AQ4041 immensely -- and, of course, the photos! I also know what you mean about the subtle tint of red. I haven't peeled off the back sticker on mine, so I wasn't aware that the eagle emblem had that level of detail. One of your photos reveals a speckled, grainy texture around the eagle, which I missed. You also delved into the high level of artisanship that isn't immediately apparent in stock sales photos. Like Grand Seiko, the AQ4041 is a watch with subtle beauty becomes more evident the closer you look at it.
> 
> This amazing Citizen needs more exposure, so I'm happy seeing more threads about it. Even though I've had the watch for about a month, I continue to be wowed by it.


So glad you are enjoying yours. When I wear mine, or my washi dial version, I seriously wonder why I have other watches.


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## achilles

Simply awesome! Love this beauty.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## caesari

Now I know what I'll be saving my pennies for.


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## harald-hans

Very cool watch ...

One question but I think no as far as I can see on the picutres - does it have any kind of lume ... ?


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## jandrese

harald-hans said:


> Very cool watch ...
> 
> One question but I think no as far as I can see on the picutres - does it have any kind of lume ... ?


Not this one. No lume, but as with GS the magnificent finishing gives amazing low light visibility. My other The Citizen with the washi paper dial has impressive lume so it is available on this line of watches.


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## WIS_Chronomaster

Wonderful.


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## harald-hans

jandrese said:


> Not this one. No lume, but as with GS the magnificent finishing gives amazing low light visibility. My other The Citizen with the washi paper dial has impressive lume so it is available on this line of watches.


Thank you for reply ...

I am looking for this one since a long time ...

AQ4030-51E



















Source of picture


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## Chaos_meme

This might steal my GS money. Look at that bezel and crystal dome profile. Very, very nice.

The case hardening, perpetual calendar, and hour advance are features that GS can not touch.


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## Chaos_meme

This might steal my GS money. Look at that bezel and crystal dome profile. Very, very nice.

The case hardening, perpetual calendar, and hour advance are features that GS can not touch.


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## Chaos_meme

I cross referenced the variant of duratect (which covers a wide range of citizen finishing / treatments) and it looks like this watch uses the PTIC VARIANT OF DURATECT, which is a platinum coating if I am understanding this thread correctly...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f905/def...-titanium-ti-ip-duratect-mrk-dlc-3494498.html

So it doesn't look like that watch is getting tha brilliant shine on its own, but in part due to the plating. Regardless, I assume that the Ti metal has to receive Sallaz polishing before the surface treatment, otherwise it would oxidize.


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## GlennO

Chaos_meme said:


> I cross referenced the variant of duratect (which covers a wide range of citizen finishing / treatments) and it looks like this watch uses the PTIC VARIANT OF DURATECT, which is a platinum coating if I am understanding this thread correctly...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f905/def...-titanium-ti-ip-duratect-mrk-dlc-3494498.html
> 
> So it doesn't look like that watch is getting tha brilliant shine on its own, but in part due to the plating. Regardless, I assume that the Ti metal has to receive Sallaz polishing before the surface treatment, otherwise it would oxidize.


Yes it's described as platinum Duratect (with PTIC icon) on the Citizen website (you'll need to click the drop-down arrow & translate):

https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4041-54L


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## Ottovonn

Chaos_meme said:


> I cross referenced the variant of duratect (which covers a wide range of citizen finishing / treatments) and it looks like this watch uses the PTIC VARIANT OF DURATECT, which is a platinum coating if I am understanding this thread correctly...
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f905/def...-titanium-ti-ip-duratect-mrk-dlc-3494498.html
> 
> So it doesn't look like that watch is getting tha brilliant shine on its own, but in part due to the plating. Regardless, I assume that the Ti metal has to receive Sallaz polishing before the surface treatment, otherwise it would oxidize.


The finish is very durable too. My AQ4041 is near pristine -- no scratches or marks on the clasp -- with a few hairline, barely perceptible marks on the polished bezel area.


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## Josh R.

Question -- Does this wear true to its 38.3mm dimensions? I ask because I have 38mm watches that wear like 40mm, and 40mm watches that wear like 38mm. The listed diameter can be deceiving at times. Thanks!


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## jandrese

Josh R. said:


> Question -- Does this wear true to its 38.3mm dimensions? I ask because I have 38mm watches that wear like 40mm, and 40mm watches that wear like 38mm. The listed diameter can be deceiving at times. Thanks!


I just tried mine on to be sure of my answer. Yes, I believe it does wear true, not smaller or bigger. First words out my mouth is my god it's f'ing beautiful.


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## Travelller

Another fantastic piece - congratulations on your growing "The citizen" collection :-!


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## tbgreen

Been for months comparing & considering in between 4030-51L, 4020-xxx and this 4041-54L. Love 4030 of it's Titanium α and that's it. The crown guard of 4020 is excessive. Eventually this 4041-54L attracted me the most of it's sun burst dial, elegantly no crown guard, the stylishly rice beads band, and most importantly the appropriately long second hand had literally helped me made the decision to go for this gem. And yes, I can trade the titanium α with just the appropriately long second hand because I'll be looking on my dial every hour everyday, and I am not sporty enough to must have the α for protection. Now it's the matter of when the bullet will be triggered.


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## HorologicOptic

tbgreen said:


> Been for months comparing & considering in between 4030-51L, 4020-xxx and this 4041-54L. Love 4030 of it's Titanium α and that's it. The crown guard of 4020 is excessive. Eventually this 4041-54L attracted me the most of it's sun burst dial, elegantly no crown guard, the stylishly rice beads band, and most importantly the appropriately long second hand had literally helped me to made the decision to go for this gem. And yes, I can trade the titanium α with just the appropriately long second hand because I'll be looking on my dial every hour everyday, and I am not sporty enough to must have the α for protection. Now it's the matter of when the bullet will be triggered.


You bring up good points. I was not even directly considering the 4041-54L until seeing it talked about more on here. Certainly more elegant with the omission of the crown guards.


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## tbgreen

Pull triggered on this AQ4041-54L.
Now patiently waiting for the shipping & delivery........ Can't wait to see the beauty with own eyes!


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## Ziptie

Not that I'm actually in the market... but do any of these Chronomasters come in something a bit larger? Maybe a 42mm size? I've got a 21cm wrist, and even for a dress watch I'm not excited about going smaller than 40mm.


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## tbgreen

tbgreen said:


> Pull triggered on this AQ4041-54L.
> Now patiently waiting for the shipping & delivery........ Can't wait to see the beauty with own eyes!


Received and got it sized and timed (at Citizen Service Centre) right after out from customs clearance. Now sun bathing for this beauty. My poor shooting skill can't even capture the 10% of this beauty.... indeed difficult to capture the real color & beauty of it's unique sunburst dial


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## tbgreen

Ziptie said:


> Not that I'm actually in the market... but do any of these Chronomasters come in something a bit larger? Maybe a 42mm size? I've got a 21cm wrist, and even for a dress watch I'm not excited about going smaller than 40mm.


The new AQ4030-51L and the old AQ1040 range are 40mm. These are the largest Chronomaster so far. I feel alright with 38mm range for Chronomaster as these are more dressy than active for what the watch is concern about.

https://citizen.jp/s/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4030-51L


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## jandrese

Ziptie said:


> Not that I'm actually in the market... but do any of these Chronomasters come in something a bit larger? Maybe a 42mm size? I've got a 21cm wrist, and even for a dress watch I'm not excited about going smaller than 40mm.


No, and if I were I betting man I'd bet against it ever happening. From what I understand the seconds hand is already about its maximum length. I don't believe the motor can output more torque. Maybe they will be able to upsize the seconds hand on a battery powered model. Anyway, the obvious trend for years now is smaller watches like 38-40 mm and they have that well covered.


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## Ottovonn

tbgreen said:


> Received and got it sized and timed (at Citizen Service Centre) right after out from customs clearance. Now sun bathing for this beauty. My poor shooting skill can't even capture the 10% of this beauty.... indeed difficult to capture the real color & beauty of it's unique sunburst dial


Congrats on The Citizen! I bought mine a few months ago - and I'm still beyond happy with it. I haven't babied it so mine has acquired a few scratches on the bezel but otherwise it's held up better than I thought.

It's such a pleasure to look at and the dial is quite a stunner. Your pics do a great job of capturing its beauty. Enjoy yours in the best!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jbwatchuseek

I hadn't really looked into this line, until now. The recent Chronomaster releases are beautiful and simple -- something I've been looking for. I'm going to piggyback on this thread with a couple questions. How dead on is the second hand to the markers? Is there any service involved? I looked through the manual, and there is nothing. I know there is no battery, but do you at least need the gaskets changed and pressure tested regularly? Being a JDM model, I'm not sure how much of a pain that would be.


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## Ottovonn

Still enjoying this watch about four months later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ottovonn

jbwatchuseek said:


> I hadn't really looked into this line, until now. The recent Chronomaster releases are beautiful and simple -- something I've been looking for. I'm going to piggyback on this thread with a couple questions. How dead on is the second hand to the markers? Is there any service involved? I looked through the manual, and there is nothing. I know there is no battery, but do you at least need the gaskets changed and pressure tested regularly? Being a JDM model, I'm not sure how much of a pain that would be.


I was told that Citizen USA will send these watches back to Japan for servicing.

A few of the markers aren't hit spot on, maybe a mm off, but overall it's pretty spot on. You can ask the dealer for an accurate one. I wouldn't wear this watch swimming but I reckon it'd take a decade or so until it needs some service.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tbgreen

Ottovonn said:


> tbgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Received and got it sized and timed (at Citizen Service Centre) right after out from customs clearance. Now sun bathing for this beauty. My poor shooting skill can't even capture the 10% of this beauty.... indeed difficult to capture the real color & beauty of it's unique sunburst dial
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats on The Citizen! I bought mine a few months ago - and I'm still beyond happy with it. I haven't babied it so mine has acquired a few scratches on the bezel but otherwise it's held up better than I thought.
> 
> It's such a pleasure to look at and the dial is quite a stunner. Your pics do a great job of capturing its beauty. Enjoy yours in the best!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

This watch is simply superb to look at. Especially the dial will forever changing based on surrounding ambient light source; we will never able to capture the same photo which made us feel amazing about this watch.

Beyond happy is the right words to describe us wearing this watch.

Wish u wear with great health and happy for a long time!


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## tbgreen

jbwatchuseek said:


> I hadn't really looked into this line, until now. The recent Chronomaster releases are beautiful and simple -- something I've been looking for. I'm going to piggyback on this thread with a couple questions. How dead on is the second hand to the markers? Is there any service involved? I looked through the manual, and there is nothing. I know there is no battery, but do you at least need the gaskets changed and pressure tested regularly? Being a JDM model, I'm not sure how much of a pain that would be.


I have total six eco drive watches (age 11, 10, 9, 2, 2, new). The oldest Blue Angel Skyhawk is still running strong and the battery is always fully charged. I have never needed any service up so far, the time is kept & running great, no water leakage problem either. But if there is any problem, think we can easily send it to nearer Citizen Service Centre and they will handle it by either repair/service in-house or if for some reason they can't handle it, they will send it back to Japan to do it right away easily.
No worries, wear it with great health and enjoy!


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## Bilibay

I am also the proud owner of the AQ4041 but my watch seems to be jumping ahead by almost a sec each month. Is that normal? I am wearing it every day and have been travelling to hotter mediterranean countries many times this last summer whereas home is UK. Any suggestions or is that normal?


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## Chasy

Bilibay said:


> I am also the proud owner of the AQ4041 but my watch seems to be jumping ahead by almost a sec each month. Is that normal? I am wearing it every day and have been travelling to hotter mediterranean countries many times this last summer whereas home is UK. Any suggestions or is that normal?


As an owner of AQ1040 and AQ4030. And as someone who read a lot of posts like yours from others about Citizen's A660, A010 and A060 movements.
The answer I have in the moment is not going to make you happy. I think that Citizen lies about 5 SPY. The watch in reality should be classified as +/-20 SPY.

My AQ1040 is +5.2 SPY 24/7 on wrist and +11 SPY when 24/7 at room temperature. Note that manual states accuracy will be good between +5+40.
My AQ4030 is currently at +8.6 SPY 24/7 on wrist and +16.2 SPY when at room temperature. Note that manual also states accuracy will be good between +5+40.

Most Citizen watches run at + error. And 1 second per month gain is typical.

Do not waste time with Citizen support. They know about this issue and will go to great length to convince you that you need to observe your watch for entire year, and that it will correct itself blah blah.
They will even send you nice graphs of how your +error will be -error after a few months. They graphs are photoshop not actual data from an actual watch.

My watches run with a slightly accelerating error (+error is getting worse) and they never once decelerated in the last 6 months. And neither 1040 no 4030 ever run within 5 SPY ever in their lifetime.


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## Dania

How do you measure the accuracy?


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## lvt

So the bracelet actually uses screws instead of push-pins?


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## jandrese

Dania said:


> How do you measure the accuracy?


You don't can examine the precision. With watches like these have to do it over long periods of time. Take pictures and compare to a reference clock like an atomic time server online (be sure to refresh often and have a low latency connection).


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## jandrese

lvt said:


> So the bracelet actually uses screws instead of push-pins?


Yes


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## Chasy

Dania said:


> How do you measure the accuracy?


Using NTP server + a custom written program giving +/-5ms time error.

It takes 1 day to know the watch's error close to being useful.

And 3 days to know the watch's error with dead certainty.


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## Wolfman53

I have been researching HAQs recently and had narrowed it down to one of three Grand Seko 9F pieces.
The one I am particularly taken with is the SBGT241









However, as it's a limited edition from some time ago it is proving difficult to find.

Today, I came across the AQ4041 which to my eyes has a similar aesthetic and appears to be readily available. Also it appears to have more features than the GS (perpetual calendar etc.).
As I an new to The Citizen HAQ range it would be good to get some advice from the knowledgeable folk on this forum.
What are the pros and cons compared to GS.
And should I be concerned about the above posts regarding misleading accuracy of the Citizen?
FYI, this would be one of a collection of 12 pieces so would be worn every couple of weeks or so.
I would of course ensured that it was 'topped up' with natural and artificial light.
Any pointers you can offer would be much appreciated.
Thank You
Mike

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## tomchicago

I considered the SBGT241 a while ago but backed off when I noticed several had misaligned seconds hands. I understand this is a very tricky task, but it makes me wonder whether the new, more ambitious, higher volume Grand Seiko can maintain their prior quality.

In general, to me, Citizen seems to have a better HAQ movement than the dated Seiko 9F which is in sore need of an update in my opinion.

However, I've seen rather iffy feedback on Chronomaster owners in the US dealing with Citizen service.

So several dimensions to consider for you. Let us know what you choose and post pics!



Wolfman53 said:


> I have been researching HAQs recently and had narrowed it down to one of three Grand Seko 9F pieces.
> The one I am particularly taken with is the SBGT241
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, as it's a limited edition from some time ago it is proving difficult to find.
> 
> Today, I came across the AQ4041 which to my eyes has a similar aesthetic and appears to be readily available. Also it appears to have more features than the GS (perpetual calendar etc.).
> As I an new to The Citizen HAQ range it would be good to get some advice from the knowledgeable folk on this forum.
> What are the pros and cons compared to GS.
> And should I be concerned about the above posts regarding misleading accuracy of the Citizen?
> FYI, this would be one of a collection of 12 pieces so would be worn every couple of weeks or so.
> I would of course ensured that it was 'topped up' with natural and artificial light.
> Any pointers you can offer would be much appreciated.
> Thank You
> Mike
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## Nolander

Chronomaster vs. GS:
One thing that I don't think was mentioned besides solar power and perpetual calendar is the jumping hour hand that can be set without stopping the watch. It is very handy if changing time zones or for DST. The date also changes exactly at midnight electronically (if that really matters). One other thing is that the hour and minute hands on the citizen are automatically checked and realigned if the somehow become misaligned. I'm not sure how that works, but it is listed as a feature. I hope this helps.


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## drunken-gmt-master

Wolfman53 said:


> I have been researching HAQs recently and had narrowed it down to one of three Grand Seko 9F pieces.
> The one I am particularly taken with is the SBGT241
> 
> However, as it's a limited edition from some time ago it is proving difficult to find.
> 
> Today, I came across the AQ4041 which to my eyes has a similar aesthetic and appears to be readily available. Also it appears to have more features than the GS (perpetual calendar etc.).
> As I an new to The Citizen HAQ range it would be good to get some advice from the knowledgeable folk on this forum.
> What are the pros and cons compared to GS.
> And should I be concerned about the above posts regarding misleading accuracy of the Citizen?
> FYI, this would be one of a collection of 12 pieces so would be worn every couple of weeks or so.
> I would of course ensured that it was 'topped up' with natural and artificial light.
> Any pointers you can offer would be much appreciated.
> Thank You
> Mike


I don't have direct experience w/any of the Grand Seiko HAQ models except for the SBGX261, which was the closest match to the Citizen AQ4020-03E that I ended up getting. Although Citizen's Chronomasters are rather derivative of GS's design aesthetic, I bought the AQ4020 sight unseen (it's almost impossible to encounter in the metal in the U.S.) because it's lower-maintenance (Eco-drive, hardened metal), has more features as already mentioned (perpetual calendar, higher spec movement, independently-adjustable hour hand), is titanium (extra weight is a bug, not a feature, for me--if I liked stainless steel & a plain dial, I could have gotten the AQ4000-51-E & saved almost $1K), & has a more interesting appearance (washi paper dial, mix of brushed & zaratsu polished case & bracelet surfaces). I assumed that the build quality would be comparable & I was certainly not disappointed.

As far as the reports of misleading accuracy, yes I think Citizen should be more clear in their advertising that the rated accuracy is for a watch that you wear all the time. The actual claim made in the instructional manual is: "To maintain this timekeeping accuracy, you must use the watch at ambient temperature (between +5°C and +40°C) and carry it with you approximately 12 hours a day. Please bear in mind that, if the watch is used under any other conditions, the accuracy may be compromised." So you should only be concerned if you actually expect +/- 5 seconds/year with occasional wear. I wear my AQ4020 an average of once/week (it otherwise charges next to a bunch of houseplants in the window w/my other Eco-drive watches) & after the 1st year, it was +9 seconds. I can live with that & have never been tempted to send it back to Japan (via Citizen USA) on warranty. From what I've read, if you are super strict about accuracy, you can manually regulate the 9F movements to a certain extent, so there the advantage goes to GS.


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## Chasy

As much as I dislike Citizen accuracy issue... Chronomaster has no alternatives.

Unique to Citizen:

1. Solar means more than "no battery changes". Seals are undisturbed and one does not risk getting water in after another battery change. A huge plus.

2. Citizen has 99% clear sapphire. Seiko does not. Single coated sapphire as in Seiko looks almost like uncoated sapphire. Citizen has invisible glass.

3. Citizen has Titanium.

4. Lume. A serious plus if you get lumed model.

5. IAHH

6. Perpetual calendar.


Unique to Seiko:
The trimmer. Not even closely enough to offset 1-6 above.


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## jkpa

I'm seriously considering getting one of these, particularly the white dialed Washi paper dialed model. So fantastic looking and has some incredible tech. Beautifully finished as well as this thread shows.


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## Wolfman53

Thanks everybody for their valuable input so far.
It seems that there are compromises to be made whether it's GS or Citizen. Visually the Citizen holds its own and has some very interesting technology which would certainly add something different to the collection. The timekeeping is a bit if an issue for me but in reality we are talking very fine margins. Does it really matter to me if it's 10SPY instead of 5SPY?
I just wish the Washi Dial version was available on the jubilee bracelet.
I will mull it over further ....

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## drunken-gmt-master

Wolfman53 said:


> . . .
> I just wish the Washi Dial version was available on the jubilee bracelet.
> I will mull it over further ....


Not sure which jubilee bracelet you're thinking about, but if the case size/model line is the same, you should be able to order the bracelet separately through your dealer, though you will pay dearly per Citizen's pricing. I had to do that to get a bracelet w/my AQ4020-03E because it was only offered on the white dial version.


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## jandrese

Wolfman53 said:


> Thanks everybody for their valuable input so far.
> It seems that there are compromises to be made whether it's GS or Citizen. Visually the Citizen holds its own and has some very interesting technology which would certainly add something different to the collection. The timekeeping is a bit if an issue for me but in reality we are talking very fine margins. Does it really matter to me if it's 10SPY instead of 5SPY?
> I just wish the Washi Dial version was available on the jubilee bracelet.
> I will mull it over further ....
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


The OP here. People get hung up on some things but understanding the nuances between GS and Citizen Chronomaster is worthwhile.

I have multiple Chronomasters and GS quartz. Both are great in their own way.

I would not say Chronomaster is derivative of GS. They compete in the same market that until recently was essentially closed and insular. The convergence of design is not really a surprise. It's more accurate to say Chronomaster is less known here than GS.

Movement wise GS is the more pure mechanical watchmaker type thingy. Yes, peeps, quartz is mechanical just with a electrochemical power supply. The 9F is remarkable in its precision but is a dumb movement for better or worse. The Citizen is a timekeeping computer. The hands are driven by motors. This arrangement has many advantages like hand alignment and perpetual calendar. Solar power is a really amazing technology.

Case and dial finishing is back and forth. Loupe both and you will find that the GS dial and indices are cleaner/better finished. Citizen is very very good but not GS good. Case finishing, at least in titanium, is better on the Citizen. They just really master titanium.

My blue dial Citizen is so achingly beautiful and the washi paper dial is preferable to me than the GS snowflake, which I sold off.

I love both brands and often for different reasons. Both are worth owning and are not mutually exclusive.


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## tomchicago

I looked at a photo of the A060 movement. It has only 1 coil and so therefore has a gear train same as the 9F. Independent stepper motors I think are only a feature of the most recent ETA HAQ which is in the current Longines VHP.



jandrese said:


> The OP here. People get hung up on some things but understanding the nuances between GS and Citizen Chronomaster is worthwhile.
> 
> I have multiple Chronomasters and GS quartz. Both are great in their own way.
> 
> I would not say Chronomaster is derivative of GS. They compete in the same market that until recently was essentially closed and insular. The convergence of design is not really a surprise. It's more accurate to say Chronomaster is less known here than GS.
> 
> Movement wise GS is the more pure mechanical watchmaker type thingy. Yes, peeps, quartz is mechanical just with a electrochemical power supply. The 9F is remarkable in its precision but is a dumb movement for better or worse. The Citizen is a timekeeping computer. The hands are driven by motors. This arrangement has many advantages like hand alignment and perpetual calendar. Solar power is a really amazing technology.
> 
> Case and dial finishing is back and forth. Loupe both and you will find that the GS dial and indices are cleaner/better finished. Citizen is very very good but not GS good. Case finishing, at least in titanium, is better on the Citizen. They just really master titanium.
> 
> My blue dial Citizen is so achingly beautiful and the washi paper dial is preferable to me than the GS snowflake, which I sold off.
> 
> I love both brands and often for different reasons. Both are worth owning and are not mutually exclusive.


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## HorologicOptic

jandrese said:


> The OP here. People get hung up on some things but understanding the nuances between GS and Citizen Chronomaster is worthwhile.
> 
> I have multiple Chronomasters and GS quartz. Both are great in their own way.
> 
> I would not say Chronomaster is derivative of GS. They compete in the same market that until recently was essentially closed and insular. The convergence of design is not really a surprise. It's more accurate to say Chronomaster is less known here than GS.


I do appreciate your nuanced opinions on the Chronomaster vs 9F dichotomy. It seems there are many who still look at the Citizen watches as derivative of Grand Seiko when both have their modern design language being solidified in the late 90's Japanese domestic market, with much of their design DNA going back even further. Exactly as you noted, insular markets and local tastes drive designs to similar places. It does seem that since Seiko is more well known in the west that they get credit by default for everything they've adopted and adapted over the years.



jandrese said:


> Case and dial finishing is back and forth. Loupe both and you will find that the GS dial and indices are cleaner/better finished. Citizen is very very good but not GS good. Case finishing, at least in titanium, is better on the Citizen. They just really master titanium.
> 
> My blue dial Citizen is so achingly beautiful and the washi paper dial is preferable to me than the GS snowflake, which I sold off.
> 
> I love both brands and often for different reasons. Both are worth owning and are not mutually exclusive.


Great points made. I hope to one day have the chance to hold a loupe to both a GS and Chronomaster in the same sitting. I would be very interested to have multiple references as well, since macro details like divots and burrs on indices and hands tend to vary between watches from what I've seen.



jandrese said:


> Movement wise GS is the more pure mechanical watchmaker type thingy. Yes, peeps, quartz is mechanical just with a electrochemical power supply. The 9F is remarkable in its precision but is a dumb movement for better or worse. The Citizen is a timekeeping computer. The hands are driven by motors. This arrangement has many advantages like hand alignment and perpetual calendar. Solar power is a really amazing technology.


I have not yet seen a full breakdown of either movement. A full deconstruction similar to the kind The Naked Watchmaker conducts and presents would be optimal. If you're aware of any fully realized overviews of the inner workings of these movements, please feel free to enlighten me.



tomchicago said:


> I looked at a photo of the A060 movement. It has only 1 coil and so therefore has a gear train same as the 9F. Independent stepper motors I think are only a feature of the most recent ETA HAQ which is in the current Longines VHP.


I have been curious about getting this information nailed down for some time. I am not (yet) and owner of an A060 movement equipped watch, so I do not have access to one myself for reference. Could you provide the images detailing this geartrain setup? Thanks!


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## tomchicago

Citizen A060. Single coil driving a single step rotor with traditional gear train:








Grand Seiko 9F. Single coil driving a single step rotor with traditional gear train:








Longines VHP (ETA) HAQ movement with independent coil (therefore independent step rotors) for hour, minute & second. Pretty neat and a genuine innovation in HAQ imo. Just wish they would make a less sporty cased version and not so huge.








Here is an excellent video on how quartz movements work: 



And one which shows how quartz technology is used in an analog movement showing how coil & stepper rotor + gear train works: 



 He uses a clock but an analog quartz watch is the same setup just much, much smaller.


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## HorologicOptic

tomchicago said:


> Citizen A060. Single coil driving a single step rotor with traditional gear train:
> View attachment 14806437
> 
> 
> Longines VHP (ETA) HAQ movement with independent coil (therefore independent step rotors) for hour, minute & second. Pretty neat and a genuine innovation in HAQ imo. Just wish they would make a less sporty cased version and not so huge.
> View attachment 14806445


Thanks for providing these. I have seen this official image of the A060 before (incidentally, very well presented), I was hoping you meant a photo with the mainplate in a state of further disassembly. I can see how it looks like there is only one stepper motor involved, especially when referencing the VHP simultaneously. This may very well be the case, but I have personal experience with a movement that obscures its motors behind its plate due to their small size.

The Victorinox Chrono 1/100 features the Soprod SOP FM13D, which features multiple micro-stepper motors. Similar motors could likely perform the functions we see in the A060 equipped watches. The FM13D movement features a perpetual calendar, jumping hands controlled using the pushers and pusher crown, and instant date change at midnight.









Jandrese seems sure that the A060 is, like the FM13D, a "Fly-by-Wire" movement, rather than a "direct drive" style like the 9F. I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

As an aside, the Victorinox Chrono 1/100 is a screaming deal. It is extremely well made and can be had for a ridiculously low price due to its middling sales and resulting obscurity. High grade machining and finishing, CNC engraved caseback text, outstanding and interesting quartz caliber, and just a cool, unique look overall. I say don't sleep on this one if it's at all interesting to you.


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## tomchicago

Quartz chronographs always have multiple stepper motors. Coils are always uncovered to prevent shorting. A060 has only one coil. My 16710 has a jump hour hand which is accomplished entirely mechanically which is what the A060 does.



tomchicago said:


> Citizen A060. Single coil driving a single step rotor with traditional gear train:
> View attachment 14806437
> 
> 
> Grand Seiko 9F. Single coil driving a single step rotor with traditional gear train:
> View attachment 14806439
> 
> 
> Longines VHP (ETA) HAQ movement with independent coil (therefore independent step rotors) for hour, minute & second. Pretty neat and a genuine innovation in HAQ imo. Just wish they would make a less sporty cased version and not so huge.
> View attachment 14806445
> 
> 
> Here is an excellent video on how quartz movements work:
> 
> 
> 
> And one which shows how quartz technology is used in an analog movement showing how coil & stepper rotor + gear train works:
> 
> 
> 
> He uses a clock but an analog quartz watch is the same setup just much, much smaller.


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## HorologicOptic

tomchicago said:


> Quartz chronographs always have multiple stepper motors. Coils are always uncovered to prevent shorting. A060 has only one coil. My 16710 has a jump hour hand which is accomplished entirely mechanically which is what the A060 does.


I see your points, they are sound. I would be happy to see confirmation that the A060 is gear train driven, since that's just pretty neat when considered with all its capabilities. Even so, as it stands unless we have some concrete documentation or a full disassembly of an A060, this still seems speculative. That being said, there certainly are enough jewels in the thing to bet on a gear train! :-!

Edit: I just noticed you added video links to your quoted post. I am a longtime Steve Mould subscriber, so I am familiar with that video. His approaches to simplifying higher concepts are often startlingly inventive. Great share! Additionally, I appreciate that you're the owner of a 16710 as well as an aficionado of Japanese HAQ |>


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## das997

jandrese said:


> The OP here. People get hung up on some things but understanding the nuances between GS and Citizen Chronomaster is worthwhile.
> 
> I have multiple Chronomasters and GS quartz. Both are great in their own way.
> 
> I would not say Chronomaster is derivative of GS. They compete in the same market that until recently was essentially closed and insular. The convergence of design is not really a surprise. It's more accurate to say Chronomaster is less known here than GS.
> 
> Movement wise GS is the more pure mechanical watchmaker type thingy. Yes, peeps, quartz is mechanical just with a electrochemical power supply. The 9F is remarkable in its precision but is a dumb movement for better or worse. The Citizen is a timekeeping computer. The hands are driven by motors. This arrangement has many advantages like hand alignment and perpetual calendar. Solar power is a really amazing technology.
> 
> Case and dial finishing is back and forth. Loupe both and you will find that the GS dial and indices are cleaner/better finished. Citizen is very very good but not GS good. Case finishing, at least in titanium, is better on the Citizen. They just really master titanium.
> 
> My blue dial Citizen is so achingly beautiful and the washi paper dial is preferable to me than the GS snowflake, which I sold off.
> 
> I love both brands and often for different reasons. Both are worth owning and are not mutually exclusive.


Because I'm pretty sure you have/had both, which one is more striking: the Washi dial (AQ4020-54Y) or the blue dial (AQ4041-54L) Chronomaster?

Interesting that we're all hung up on GS vs Citizen - I want a blue dial HAQ and am stuck just like everyone else ;-)


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## LioMon

das997 said:


> Because I'm pretty sure you have/had both, which one is more striking: the Washi dial (AQ4020-54Y) or the blue dial (AQ4041-54L) Chronomaster?
> 
> Interesting that we're all hung up on GS vs Citizen - I want a blue dial HAQ and am stuck just like everyone else ;-)


How about AQ4030-51L with a blue washi dial?


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## das997

LioMon said:


> How about AQ4030-51L with a blue washi dial?


Thought about that one long and hard too. Just not sure I want one more watch with lume (seems everything I have except a SARX055 has lume). Not fussy about all the marking(s) on the rehaut. I have a CTQ57-0934 with a clean rehaut, and I really like that. All that being said, I've never seen one in person. I suspect that's why the intrigue on all this is so high - you spend your money with Seiya or Sakura and if you don't like what you get, the problems start....


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## jandrese

das997 said:


> Because I'm pretty sure you have/had both, which one is more striking: the Washi dial (AQ4020-54Y) or the blue dial (AQ4041-54L) Chronomaster?
> 
> Interesting that we're all hung up on GS vs Citizen - I want a blue dial HAQ and am stuck just like everyone else ;-)


Honestly, I cannot say which is most striking. If you want a blue dial HAQ the version I have is gorgeous. I've seen fantastic blue dial GS 9F quartz too. Indeed, I have the 50th anniversary quartz GMT 9F watch but there are some gorgeous three hand watches available from them too.


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## Daneel

Chasy said:


> As much as I dislike Citizen accuracy issue... Chronomaster has no alternatives.
> 
> Unique to Citizen:
> 
> 1. Solar means more than "no battery changes". Seals are undisturbed and one does not risk getting water in after another battery change. A huge plus.
> 
> 2. Citizen has 99% clear sapphire. Seiko does not. Single coated sapphire as in Seiko looks almost like uncoated sapphire. Citizen has invisible glass.
> 
> 3. Citizen has Titanium.
> 
> 4. Lume. A serious plus if you get lumed model.
> 
> 5. IAHH
> 
> 6. Perpetual calendar.
> 
> Unique to Seiko:
> The trimmer. Not even closely enough to offset 1-6 above.


No alternatives? My Casio Oceanus S5000 does most of that. The standard quartz accuracy can't match these watches, but with radio sync + blue tooth, it has its own way of staying accurate. I have a GS SBGX263 on the way, and am now looking at this watch. I may end up with all three!

What is IAHH? Edit - figured it out, S5000 has that too.


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## NorthMac

Coming late to this thread... can any of the Citizen AQ owners comment on the bracelets- do they have a micro adjust in the clasp, and/or several half links? Having trouble finding photos that make this clear. In my experience, bracelet watches are lovely IF you can get a perfect fit.


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## drunken-gmt-master

NorthMac said:


> Coming late to this thread... can any of the Citizen AQ owners comment on the bracelets- do they have a micro adjust in the clasp, and/or several half links? Having trouble finding photos that make this clear. In my experience, bracelet watches are lovely IF you can get a perfect fit.


Sorry, no microadjustments & no 1/2-links that I can recall (don't have the removed links w/me), at least on my AQ4020's bracelet. The links are small, however, which facilitates fitting.


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## HorologicOptic

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Sorry, no microadjustments & no 1/2-links that I can recall (don't have the removed links w/me), at least on my AQ4020's bracelet. The links are small, however, which facilitates fitting.


This is currently the only source of hesitation for me regarding any of The Citizen line. I believe any high end bracelet watch at the $2000+ price point should have an excellent instant micro-adjust system, but as it stands it seems basic mechanical conveniences are too much to ask of high-end luxury products...


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## Nolander

It does come with 2 half links (about 2/3 links really).


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## NorthMac

HorologicOptic said:


> This is currently the only source of hesitation for me regarding any of The Citizen line. I believe any high end bracelet watch at the $2000+ price point should have an excellent instant micro-adjust system, but as it stands it seems basic mechanical conveniences are too much to ask of high-end luxury products...


Yes, this is a bit odd as many of their lower-mid end watches have a 3 way micro-adjust in clasp; I own one, an AT series radio control watch in Ti. In hot weather when your hand swells a bit, I do use it.


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## NorthMac

HorologicOptic said:


> This is currently the only source of hesitation for me regarding any of The Citizen line. I believe any high end bracelet watch at the $2000+ price point should have an excellent instant micro-adjust system, but as it stands it seems basic mechanical conveniences are too much to ask of high-end luxury products...


Yes, this is a bit odd as many of their lower-mid end watches have a 3 way micro-adjust in clasp; I own one, an AT series radio control watch in Ti. In hot weather when your hand swells a bit, I do use it.


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## hamster 8

jandrese said:


> Not this one. No lume, but as with GS the magnificent finishing gives amazing low light visibility. My other The Citizen with the washi paper dial has impressive lume so it is available on this line of watches.


Thanks for the detailed presentation. I am trying to decide between the one with washi paper and the one with sunburst dial. How would you compare and your recommendation? Which one do you like more or for what occasions and considerations. Thanks.


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## jandrese

hamster 8 said:


> Thanks for the detailed presentation. I am trying to decide between the one with washi paper and the one with sunburst dial. How would you compare and your recommendation? Which one do you like more or for what occasions and considerations. Thanks.


They are both awesome in some similar and some different ways. The most salient functional difference is the lume. If you need that go for the washi dial watch. If you prefer a more intricate case and case finishing go for this blue one. The dials are both attractive in their own unique ways.


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