# AP 15400 Royal Oak Authentic?



## DiscoHippodrome

Hi all,

Is this 15400OR (Rose Gold) Royal Oak authentic? I took it to the AP boutique, and the guy didn't really look closely at the watch/movement closely, but he did enter the number on the case-back (which matches the warranty card) into the system and confirmed that there is five years of warranty left (with the last three years from the warranty card). But again, he didn't closely look at the watch/movement, so just wanted double-assurance from the knowledgeable board members.

Also, what papers does a new AP come with? I posted everything I received: movement booklet, warranty booklet, warranty card, and tag (not in photo).

Is this authentic? Let me know if another angle would help. Thanks!


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## dantan

Surely an Audemars Piguet Authorised Dealer would spend time to properly look at such a high-end Watch. 

Where did you purchase this Watch from, and how much did you pay for it?


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## ACoulson

There are a few details that don’t look right, such as the boldness of the text and the minute track, but that could very well be the photography. It could be authentic. I’m not confident to say more than that.

It’s mainly the story and possible reasons for you asking that makes me doubt it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DiscoHippodrome

OP here. I purchased from a new dealer I've never dealt with. I was referred to him by a friend, so I don't have any specific reason to feel suspicious but just triple-checking.


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## John MS

If you bought from an A. P. authorized dealer you should be ok.


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## arogle1stus

Disco:
Why quibble about issues there may be no problems with
Wear n enjoy!!!I've never seen an AP RO in the wild!!!

X Traindriver Art


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## ZIPPER79

Why are you here. Possibly done your due diligence before. Why didn't you check out the AD thru the AP website.....CAVEAT EMPTOR.


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## Strmwatch

JUST joined the forum and the FIRST post is about authenticity of a high end watch. 

Yeah...


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## DiscoHippodrome

Strmwatch said:


> JUST joined the forum and the FIRST post is about authenticity of a high end watch.
> 
> Yeah...


Ok and is there anything wrong with that? If it's against the rules, you can call the police on me.

I was a lurker on this site and finally decided to make an account to be more active. I am doing this as a triple check due diligence.


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## ACoulson

DiscoHippodrome said:


> Ok and is there anything wrong with that? If it's against the rules, you can call the police on me.
> 
> I was a lurker on this site and finally decided to make an account to be more active. I am doing this as a triple check due diligence.


This may be the first ever instance in the history of WUS where a new member posts about the authenticity of a high end watch and both the watch and post are genuine. We have so many instances of people using the forum to test the quality of their fakes before sale that it does get quite tedious. I can usually spot several reasons why it's a fake and decide not to tell the OP because I don't want to help with their market research for their fakes.

In this case I think the only bits I find questionable are things that may be due to light bleed on camera phone photos in bright situations.

This could well be legit, in which case welcome to the forum.

If it's fake and I've been played then I'm sorry everyone, I've let the side down.

I believe you can search a directory of authorised dealers on the AP website. If they are listed as an authorised dealer there then I would take it at face value. If it's a bricks and mortar shop and AP gave them AD status and subsequently caught them selling fakes there would be jail time and bankruptcy, and I can't imagine that happens often. And I'm sure AP check their dealers.


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## gangrel

DiscoHippodrome said:


> Ok and is there anything wrong with that? If it's against the rules, you can call the police on me.
> 
> I was a lurker on this site and finally decided to make an account to be more active. I am doing this as a triple check due diligence.


As ACoulson noted, a first post like this, is about a fake almost *all* the time.

You bought it through an AD...so...you're saying they might've sold you a fake?

Then you checked, and the serial number's legit.

Good as the collective wisdom is, it's not better than that.


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## DiscoHippodrome

ACoulson said:


> DiscoHippodrome said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok and is there anything wrong with that? If it's against the rules, you can call the police on me.
> 
> I was a lurker on this site and finally decided to make an account to be more active. I am doing this as a triple check due diligence.
> 
> 
> 
> This may be the first ever instance in the history of WUS where a new member posts about the authenticity of a high end watch and both the watch and post are genuine. We have so many instances of people using the forum to test the quality of their fakes before sale that it does get quite tedious. I can usually spot several reasons why it's a fake and decide not to tell the OP because I don't want to help with their market research for their fakes.
> 
> In this case I think the only bits I find questionable are things that may be due to light bleed on camera phone photos in bright situations.
> 
> This could well be legit, in which case welcome to the forum.
> 
> If it's fake and I've been played then I'm sorry everyone, I've let the side down.
> 
> I believe you can search a directory of authorised dealers on the AP website. If they are listed as an authorised dealer there then I would take it at face value. If it's a bricks and mortar shop and AP gave them AD status and subsequently caught them selling fakes there would be jail time and bankruptcy, and I can't imagine that happens often. And I'm sure AP check their dealers.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your explanation. I guess there isnt much I can do to convince others over thr internet that I'm a watch afficianado and not someone trying to give a replica test. I hope there will be more assurance once people check on my posts one week from now.

In any event, I purchased this watch from a dealer introduced to my friend who has bought multiple watches from them. I did my due diligence (including the AP boutique who entered the serial number into the system for warranty), but just wanting to make sure once more from more knowledgeable members here.

Also, I think there may be some distortion due to the camera phone and maybe the plastic that is still on the front of the watch.

Looks amazing and feels hefty (pm weight). Will post some real wrist shots, along with prices in my collection, soon.


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## DiscoHippodrome

Forgot to mention, I'm surprised there is no sub forum for AP here!


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## roman1191

AP looks legit!, Im not AP Expert but not any big Signs. But like most people said, The AD Would know best.


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## bradfordcharles

@OP.

As has been said previously, when there is an authenticity check for a first post, it's usually not a good sign. That said, you seem to be the exception to the rule, so welcome.

The watch looks legit to me, but I could well be wrong. That said, don't worry so much. If you bought from a legit dealer and AP ran the serial, you've got nothing to worry about. Not to mention, if your friend has used this dealer multiple times without issue, you're probably fine.

Go check in at the High End Forum, take off the plastic and show off some pics. Introduce yourself, but don't ask about authenticity. If it's fake, you'll know quickly with a call out or thread lock. Otherwise, enjoy your new AP.


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## Chris Stark

He still hasn't said the dealer was an AP dealer. He said it's a dealer his friend introduced him to. Then he took it to an AP boutique who just verified that both numbers matched. I'm not sure AP verified the authenticity of the watch.

Do I have this right OP?

In any event, if it's not authentic someone went to great pains and expense to produce this piece. But hard to tell with the plastic wrap still on.


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## soaking.fused

Is it just the pic, or is the word 'Automatic' not centered on the underling plate (looks to be a greater margin above VS below)? And that name plate with 'Automatic' wording should be rounded on the bottom edges as seen on the top (can't quite tell from the photos).

And is it just the angle, or does the date font appear off-centre (to the Left)?

Welcome to Watchuseek!


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## kindwater

if it is from the AD, then you are Good, else take it to the AD, and have it authenticated.


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## Watagump

None of us here can 100% confirm its real.


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## mpalmer

If it is fake, it is a very good one. Faking a movement like that along with box and papers would have to be exceedingly rare.


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## mleok

I believe the watch in question is authentic. But, one needs to be very careful with regards to fake watches these days. The following is a fake 3120 movement that is based on the Miyota 9015 movement.


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## Rivarama

Looks real from what I can see.


mleok said:


> I believe the watch in question is authentic. But, one needs to be very careful with regards to fake watches these days. The following is a fake 3120 movement that is based on the Miyota 9015 movement.


The shock protection on that one is an instant giveaway that it is a fake...but a good quality one. Looks closer to Seiko's Diashock more than KIF.


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## Gary123

If you bought from an AP AD, I would not worry.

And if there is something to worry about, it is very possible that no one here could assist you. I spoke to an AP dealer 2 years ago who told me they are seeing extraordinarily high end fakes from Italy that are so finely made a partial disassembly of the movement is necessary to make a determination.


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## dantan

If you purchased this Watch brand new from an Authorised Dealer of Audemars Piguet Watches, then you should not have any doubts of its authenticity.


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## watchRus

I am going to vote fake. Like one other user, I too find the wording a bit 'bold'.

Not seen in the authentic one: Audemars Piguet Royal Oak Ref. 15400OR.OO.D088CR.01


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## UberDave

Dudes! He *DID NOT* buy it from an AD. You're seeing what you want to see, not what he actually said.

He said he bought it from "a dealer" not "an authorized dealer". Unless he's being silly and not making the proper distinction, which, given his posts, I very much doubt...



John MS said:


> If you bought from an A. P. authorized dealer you should be ok.





ZIPPER79 said:


> Why are you here. Possibly done your due diligence before. Why didn't you check out the AD thru the AP website.....CAVEAT EMPTOR.





gangrel said:


> You bought it through an AD...so...you're saying they might've sold you a fake?





kindwater said:


> if it is from the AD, then you are Good, else take it to the AD, and have it authenticated.





Gary123 said:


> If you bought from an AP AD, I would not worry..





dantan said:


> If you purchased this Watch brand new from an Authorised Dealer of Audemars Piguet Watches, then you should not have any doubts of its authenticity.


He did go to a boutique to have the serial checked. But, it would not be difficult for someone to grab a serial number off of an ebay listing. If the boutique did not thoroughly inspect it, I'd say it's still not guaranteed to be real.


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## Rivarama

I will say that the font for the date wheel looks wrong. Also the kerning between the "E" and "T" in Piguet doesn't look right. The watch is wrapped in plastic, so while these photos are clearer than most of the fake post they still are still not 100% clear.


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## Watagump

I know one thing for sure, I want to know for sure if its real.


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## DiscoHippodrome

OP here. Here are additional photos without the plastic:


http://imgur.com/ow3Rb


Not sure why I can't post the pics directly anymore like my original post.


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## UberDave

DiscoHippodrome said:


> OP here. Here are additional photos without the plastic:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/ow3Rb
> 
> 
> Not sure why I can't post the pics directly anymore like my original post.


Based on these images, I'm fairly certain it is not real. Sorry to say, but I'd make a second trip back to the boutique and press them for a more thorough inspection.

Out of respect for forum rules, I'm not going to elaborate. I'll simply say that if it's legit, AP's QC is slipping. Also, I am not an expert anyway.


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## DiscoHippodrome

OP again. Figured out how to post the pics directly. Here are more pics without the plastic:


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## DiscoHippodrome

*New AP Royal Oak 15400OR - Can someone help confirm authenticity?*

Hi all,

I posted this in the public forum, but figured this subforum is more appropriate. Is this 15400OR (Rose Gold) Royal Oak authentic? I took it to the AP boutique, and the guy didn't really look closely at the watch/movement closely, but he did enter the number on the case-back (which matches the warranty card) into the system and confirmed that there is five years of warranty left (with the last three years from the warranty card). But again, he didn't closely look at the watch/movement, so just wanted double-assurance from knowledgeable board members.

Also, what papers does a new AP come with? I posted everything I received: movement booklet, warranty booklet, warranty card, and tag (not in photo).

Is this authentic? Let me know if another angle would help. Thanks!


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## JPCass

Gary123 said:


> And if there is something to worry about, it is very possible that no one here could assist you. I spoke to an AP dealer 2 years ago who told me they are seeing extraordinarily high end fakes from Italy that are so finely made a partial disassembly of the movement is necessary to make a determination.


Thanks for contributing that knowledge - which is scary.

But "superfakes" would be of a expensive high-end watch like this.

And as someone else noted, its serial number being in AP's database, doesn't really mean much - if anything, that's what might be expected of a good fake, that it would use a real serial number that would pass a superficial test. After all, making a really good fake would require having a real watch to work from, plus it wouldn't be hard for serious fakers to visit boutiques, look at watches and acquire other authentic serial numbers.


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## CoffeeDrinker

This watch appears to be a counterfeit.


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## DiscoHippodrome

*Re: New AP Royal Oak 15400OR - Can someone help confirm authenticity?*



CoffeeDrinker said:


> This watch appears to be a counterfeit.


Could you elaborate on why you think so?


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## CoffeeDrinker

It is the normal practice of the WUS forum to not itemize problems with counterfeit watches, lest we aid those who produce and sell them.


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## dantan

Post it to me, and I shall find out whether it is real.

If it is real, I shall keep it.

If it is fake, I shall dispose of it.


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## DilliTime

JPCass said:


> Thanks for contributing that knowledge - which is scary.
> 
> But "superfakes" would be of a expensive high-end watch like this.
> 
> And as someone else noted, its serial number being in AP's database, doesn't really mean much - if anything, that's what might be expected of a good fake, that it would use a real serial number that would pass a superficial test. After all, making a really good fake would require having a real watch to work from, plus it wouldn't be hard for serious fakers to visit boutiques, look at watches and acquire other authentic serial numbers.


My thoughts precisely on the serial number. There are plenty of sales reps out there who wouldn't have the guts to tell a potential customer they couldn't take detailed pics.

I know in this case there is dispute around the dealer being an AD but do we know of cases where ADs have inadvertently sold high-end fakes? It happens in plenty of other industries, all it takes is one player in the distribution chain to be involved, and if the piece is high enough quality and the numbers check out then the average Joe dealer isn't going to spot it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## OfficerCamp

I'm not sure I believe that AP would let watch this expensive get through QC with a non centered 12oclock indice. The one minute mark is practically touching it and the 59 minute mark is much further away.


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## dantan

The more I look at the photos, the more I think it is fake, but I am not an expert.


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## JPCass

OfficerCamp said:


> I'm not sure I believe that AP would let watch this expensive get through QC with a non centered 12oclock indice. The one minute mark is practically touching it and the 59 minute mark is much further away.


Thanks for contributing a clear of example of at least one basic, fairly obvious thing that marks this as suspicious - assuming it's not an optical illusion, but it appears to me that the photograph is dead-on and well-lit enough that's unlikely. I can see a few other things that look a bit off, as well.

I understand those who don't want to give up too much about the points they use for identifying fakes, but I think it's helpful to at least identify one seemingly blatant point like this.


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## ACoulson

OfficerCamp said:


> I'm not sure I believe that AP would let watch this expensive get through QC with a non centered 12oclock indice. The one minute mark is practically touching it and the 59 minute mark is much further away.


I hadn't spotted that! That alone convinced me it's a fake.and it's a good thing to point out because every maker of fakes knows about marker and indices spacing, so you aren't giving anything away.

The new photos suggest a couple of my other concerns may be more substantial than thought.


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## dantan

I am unfortunately unable to copy and paste a picture from Audemars Piguet's web-site, but here is a link to what I believe the OP purchased:

https://www.audemarspiguet.com/en/watch-collection/royal-oak/15400OR.OO.1220OR.02/


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## dantan

.


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## murokello

It is real. Enjoy.


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## StufflerMike

Two threads merged. No need for cross post on WUS, one thread does the trick, don't you think.


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## StufflerMike

DiscoHippodrome said:


> Forgot to mention, I'm surprised there is no sub forum for AP here!


No need for such a forum.


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## Gary123

JPCass said:


> Thanks for contributing that knowledge - which is scary.
> 
> But "superfakes" would be of a expensive high-end watch like this.
> 
> And as someone else noted, its serial number being in AP's database, doesn't really mean much - if anything, that's what might be expected of a good fake, that it would use a real serial number that would pass a superficial test. After all, making a really good fake would require having a real watch to work from, plus it wouldn't be hard for serious fakers to visit boutiques, look at watches and acquire other authentic serial numbers.


Yes, "superfakes" (great name) are only feasible for very expensive watches. The fake makers constantly search the internet looking for serial #'s for to use in their production. Consequently, AP does maintain a database of serial numbers that have been identified on fakes. I forgot to mention that. So while not 100% guaranteed, if a serial # is not reported as used on a fake, it is a good indicator the watch is genuine. But if one buys from an AD, you "should" be good.


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## mlcor

Hard to say for sure without sharper pictures of the movement to see angles and edges. I agree the misaligned "12:01" index is not a good sign...


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## DiscoHippodrome

OP here. Went to the AP boutique again and they confirmed that it is absolutely legit. He said there is no way for fakes to have the right serial and still have stamp approval by AP in their database. Makes sense since they only produce a small number and have tight control on the supplies. 

But I appreciate everyone's observations. It only makes sense that a post title like this would invite only the most scrupulous eyes. Also, some have mentioned misalignment, but that seems to be due to the photo (camera phone macro, the reflection of the tapisserie, the angle, etc.). And note, some the index lines are drawn over the squares, so that also adds to the effect.


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## watchRus

DiscoHippodrome said:


> OP here. Went to the AP boutique again and they confirmed that it is absolutely legit. He said there is no way for fakes to have the right serial and still have stamp approval by AP in their database. Makes sense since they only produce a small number and have tight control on the supplies.
> 
> *But I appreciate everyone's observations. It only makes sense that a post title like this would invite only the most scrupulous eyes. Also, some have mentioned misalignment, but that seems to be due to the photo (camera phone macro, the reflection of the tapisserie, the angle, etc.). And note, some the index lines are drawn over the squares, so that also adds to the effect.*


Why did _you _have doubt in its authenticity?


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## DiscoHippodrome

watchRus said:


> DiscoHippodrome said:
> 
> 
> 
> OP here. Went to the AP boutique again and they confirmed that it is absolutely legit. He said there is no way for fakes to have the right serial and still have stamp approval by AP in their database. Makes sense since they only produce a small number and have tight control on the supplies.
> 
> *But I appreciate everyone's observations. It only makes sense that a post title like this would invite only the most scrupulous eyes. Also, some have mentioned misalignment, but that seems to be due to the photo (camera phone macro, the reflection of the tapisserie, the angle, etc.). And note, some the index lines are drawn over the squares, so that also adds to the effect.*
> 
> 
> 
> Why did _you _have doubt in its authenticity?
Click to expand...

I only had doubts to the extent I was dealing with a new dealer (whom my friend recommended) without meeting him in person. This is also my largest purchase so I wanted to be extra sure. Nothing about the watch itself seems off, but then again I don't have any other AP, which is why I turned to this forum just for assurance from other knowledgeable members.


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## murokello

DiscoHippodrome said:


> I only had doubts to the extent I was dealing with a new dealer (whom my friend recommended) without meeting him in person. This is also my largest purchase so I wanted to be extra sure. Nothing about the watch itself seems off, but then again I don't have any other AP, which is why I turned to this forum just for assurance from other knowledgeable members.


 Yep just enjoy it. There are always people who shout fake even though they have no clue. It is easy to confirm this as a real deal by just looking at the movement.


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## mlcor

DiscoHippodrome said:


> OP here. Went to the AP boutique again and they confirmed that it is absolutely legit. He said there is no way for fakes to have the right serial and still have stamp approval by AP in their database. Makes sense since they only produce a small number and have tight control on the supplies.
> 
> But I appreciate everyone's observations. It only makes sense that a post title like this would invite only the most scrupulous eyes. Also, some have mentioned misalignment, but that seems to be due to the photo (camera phone macro, the reflection of the tapisserie, the angle, etc.). And note, some the index lines are drawn over the squares, so that also adds to the effect.


That's good news--enjoy your AP!


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## Rivarama

Glad you confirmed it was real. If it were a fake they did quite a good job with the movement (from what I can tell from the pictures anyway). I do think the logo looks more bold than examples I have seen and the font on the date wheel is different from what they show on their website but that is not an indication of a fake necessarily and if AP says its real then its fine.

You can also pay to have AP authenticate your watch in writing. This is a very expensive service though as I recall.


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## watchRus

Rivarama said:


> Glad you confirmed it was real. If it were a fake they did quite a good job with the movement (from what I can tell from the pictures anyway). I do think the logo looks more bold than examples I have seen and the font on the date wheel is different from what they show on their website but that is not an indication of a fake necessarily and if AP says its real then its fine.
> 
> You can also pay to have AP authenticate your watch in writing. This is a very expensive service though as I recall.


He doesn't have to pay. Just send the watch in for warranty repair for misaligned 12th hour index.


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## JPCass

DiscoHippodrome said:


> OP here. Went to the AP boutique again and they confirmed that it is absolutely legit. He said there is no way for fakes to have the right serial and still have stamp approval by AP in their database. Makes sense since they only produce a small number and have tight control on the supplies.
> 
> But I appreciate everyone's observations. It only makes sense that a post title like this would invite only the most scrupulous eyes. Also, some have mentioned misalignment, but that seems to be due to the photo (camera phone macro, the reflection of the tapisserie, the angle, etc.). And note, some the index lines are drawn over the squares, so that also adds to the effect.


Given someone's comment that some fakes have gotten so good that it requires partial disassembly of the watch to identify them, and the points that apparently concern some discerning eyes and experienced hands here, I'm not sure that a local boutique has the expertise to address this issue, and I suggest that you take it to a higher level in AP to be sure that you get a good answer that will leave you without question. I don't see how a serial number check can eliminate the possibility that fakers have gotten ahold of a legitimate serial number to use, that AP just doesn't know about - yet.

Since it's been suggested that dial registration issues are legitimate to discuss without risking tipping off fakers about fine points that they might be getting wrong, what jumps out at me, is that the 29 and 31 second ticks don't fall evenly on background grid, not matching the reference photo. But when I looked for other examples online, it seems as if the registration varies up to that point in presumably legitimate examples. I liked the idea in one post, to send it in for warranty service to get the registration fixed, at which point the watch would presumably be scrutinized more closely - but then again, I don't see how you can complain to AP about that, if you bought it that way.

It does occur to me, perhaps AP's quality control varies more than some dealers are happy with, and they're dumping the examples that don't meet their standards on the gray market - which could be an okay deal, as long as you're satisfied with that.


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## JPCass

Gary123 said:


> Yes, "superfakes" (great name) are only feasible for very expensive watches. The fake makers constantly search the internet looking for serial #'s for to use in their production. Consequently, AP does maintain a database of serial numbers that have identified on fakes. I forgot to mention that. So while not 100% guaranteed, if a serial # is not reported as used on a fake, it is a good indicator the watch is genuine. But if one buys from an AD, you "should" be good.


It looks to me as if this is about a $30K list watch - how "very expensive" do you think it would have to be, for it to be at risk of possibly being a superfake? (I got that term over on the Omega forum, where I think it may come from one member in particular who apparently makes a business in Europe of running seminars on identifying fakes). And what about the earlier comment from someone, that nearly indistinguishable fakes were coming out of Italy?

My reading is that this was not bought from an AD, and so that's why the question of the watch's authenticity was raised.


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## dantan

I agree that it sounds as though this Watch was not purchased from an Authorised Dealer of Audemars Piguet, hence the slight doubt about its authenticity. 

Regardless, it is the OP’s Watch, so wear it in good health and enjoy it!


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## DiscoHippodrome

JPCass said:


> Given someone's comment that some fakes have gotten so good that it requires partial disassembly of the watch to identify them, and the points that apparently concern some discerning eyes and experienced hands here, I'm not sure that a local boutique has the expertise to address this issue, and I suggest that you take it to a higher level in AP to be sure that you get a good answer that will leave you without question. I don't see how a serial number check can eliminate the possibility that fakers have gotten ahold of a legitimate serial number to use, that AP just doesn't know about - yet.
> 
> Since it's been suggested that dial registration issues are legitimate to discuss without risking tipping off fakers about fine points that they might be getting wrong, what jumps out at me, is that the 29 and 31 second ticks don't fall evenly on background grid, not matching the reference photo. But when I looked for other examples online, it seems as if the registration varies up to that point in presumably legitimate examples. I liked the idea in one post, to send it in for warranty service to get the registration fixed, at which point the watch would presumably be scrutinized more closely - but then again, I don't see how you can complain to AP about that, if you bought it that way.
> 
> It does occur to me, perhaps AP's quality control varies more than some dealers are happy with, and they're dumping the examples that don't meet their standards on the gray market - which could be an okay deal, as long as you're satisfied with that.


The 29 and 31 second ticks actually do line up. It's the reflection off of the inner-polished bezel and the angle that distort the image.

Also, I have never heard of "super fakes" that use real gold - usually, they use steel with gold plated. If there are such cases, would be interested in seeing pics or reading about real examples (as opposed to hearsay about such products in Italy).


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## murokello

DiscoHippodrome said:


> The 29 and 31 second ticks actually do line up. It's the reflection off of the inner-polished bezel and the angle that distort the image. Also, I have never heard of "super fakes" that use real gold - usually, they use steel with gold plated. If there are such cases, would be interested in seeing pics or reading about real examples (as opposed to hearsay about such products in Italy).


 I have not seen one. Also this talk about "super fakes" that require the whole watch to be disassembled is BS at least when it comes to these AP offshores or other high ends with a see through back. I have never seen a convincing high end fake movement because fakers don't do 1:1 copies of high end movement they just try to make a different movement look like one with modifying parts and putting fake top plates on. That is why it is always the best to look at the movement.


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## DiscoHippodrome

murokello said:


> I have not seen one. Also this talk about "super fakes" that require the whole watch to be disassembled is BS at least when it comes to these AP offshores with a see through back. I have never seen a convincing high end fake movement because fakers don't do 1:1 copies of high end movement they just try to make a different movement look like one with modifying parts and putting fake top plates on.


Exactly. It would make no logical (or business) sense to create a 1:1 copy - it would significantly cut profits, and in any event, they might as well set up shop to become a new, luxury watch company themselves. The fact that this 15400or is full rose gold (and has the weight of it) makes me feel confident. I would be supremely surprised to find a "super fake" that uses real, solid gold for the case.


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## JPCass

DiscoHippodrome said:


> The 29 and 31 second ticks actually do line up. It's the reflection off of the inner-polished bezel and the angle that distort the image.
> 
> Also, I have never heard of "super fakes" that use real gold - usually, they use steel with gold plated. If there are such cases, would be interested in seeing pics or reading about real examples (as opposed to hearsay about such products in Italy).


The ticks don't line up as perfectly as they do on the reference photograph - but they seem not to on quite a few examples, including some loose dials that I found listed for sale (no bezel distortion) for sale, so that seems within AP's quality control norms.

It also struck me that it seemed less than probable that a faker would bother to work in gold, though on further thought that might increase profit margins enough to be worthwhile. But how do we know it's real gold? There's the image at the top of page 3 of this thread used to illustrate a fake Royal Oak movement - which shows a convincing-looking gold-colored case with AU750 marking:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/ap-15400-royal-oak-authentic-4653959-3.html#post45461715

The apparent original source for that image states that it is actually "316L stainless steel, with gold coating":

(I hope it's acceptable to insert that link, in order to illustrate the point here)​
The dial on that fake also looks pretty good at first glance:









That's assuming, of course, that the site isn't pulling the trick of using photographs of an authentic AP Golden Oak - but they're representing that fakes are being executed with that level of detail, so it has to at least be given serious consideration.

This is why I still think that the OP may want to kick it up a level with AP and make absolutely sure that the watch is, well, golden....


----------



## yskhyr

I'm mostly a lurker here, but it was fascinating to read this thread - as an AP owner who has seen and handled a *lot* of APs, I thought there was absolutely no question that your watch was real, even from the initial set of pictures. I was then surprised to read through this thread and see quite a few people calling it as a fake (enough that I was almost starting to doubt my own judgment). 

I guess it goes to show - if you approach something with a skeptical mindset (with which people, for good reason, often approach posts like these) - it's easy to find faults if you convince yourself that they should be there. I would note that many of those calling this a probable fake, though I don't doubt their knowledge and experience, seem to have been operating off of a general knowledge of high-end watches rather than knowledge of AP specifically. Like murokello said, I've never seen a fake (and I've also seen a lot of those - up to the top tier so-called "superfakes") that looked anything close to a genuine cal. 3120.


----------



## DiscoHippodrome

JPCass said:


> The ticks don't line up as perfectly as they do on the reference photograph - but they seem not to on quite a few examples, including some loose dials that I found listed for sale (no bezel distortion) for sale, so that seems within AP's quality control norms.
> 
> It also struck me that it seemed less than probable that a faker would bother to work in gold, though on further thought that might increase profit margins enough to be worthwhile. But how do we know it's real gold? There's the image at the top of page 3 of this thread used to illustrate a fake Royal Oak movement - which shows a convincing-looking gold-colored case with AU750 marking:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/ap-15400-royal-oak-authentic-4653959-3.html#post45461715
> 
> The apparent original source for that image states that it is actually "316L stainless steel, with gold coating":
> 
> (I hope it's acceptable to insert that link, in order to illustrate the point here)​
> The dial on that fake also looks pretty good at first glance:
> 
> That's assuming, of course, that the site isn't pulling the trick of using photographs of an authentic AP Golden Oak - but they're representing that fakes are being executed with that level of detail, so it has to at least be given serious consideration.
> 
> This is why I still think that the OP may want to kick it up a level with AP and make absolutely sure that the watch is, well, golden....


I was speaking more about the solid gold casing - if real, it should have heft to it and would be noticeably heavier. The replica in your link above has a case made of "stainless steel, with gold coating," which would be fairly lighter than a solid gold one. That being said, a stainless steel replica would be harder to identify, I'd assume.


----------



## JPCass

yskhyr said:


> I'm mostly a lurker here, but it was fascinating to read this thread - as an AP owner who has seen and handled a *lot* of APs, I thought there was absolutely no question that your watch was real, even from the initial set of pictures. I was then surprised to read through this thread and see quite a few people calling it as a fake (enough that I was almost starting to doubt my own judgment).
> 
> I guess it goes to show - if you approach something with a skeptical mindset (with which people, for good reason, often approach posts like these) - it's easy to find faults if you convince yourself that they should be there. I would note that many of those calling this a probable fake, though I don't doubt their knowledge and experience, seem to have been operating off of a general knowledge of high-end watches rather than knowledge of AP specifically. Like murokello said, I've never seen a fake (and I've also seen a lot of those - up to the top tier so-called "superfakes") that looked anything close to a genuine cal. 3120.


So is the picture that I linked to (as well as to its source, above), that was originally posted on the top of page 3 of this thread, of a movement (and watch) that is obviously fake to you? And if so, could you share at least one point that you think identifies it as such?


----------



## yskhyr

JPCass said:


> So is the picture that I linked to (as well as to its source, above), that was originally posted on the top of page 3 of this thread, of a movement (and watch) that is obviously fake to you? And if so, could you share at least one point that you think identifies it as such?


Yes, the movement is obviously fake and looks nothing like the real cal. 3120 (other than the rotor, but the printing on that is also of obviously lesser quality than a real one). One characteristic that's off: balance wheel and balance bridge on the fake movement is at 6 o'clock, which is the wrong place.

Mind you, I'm not saying that I would expect someone who has no knowledge of AP to look at the fake movement and identify it as a fake movement - it may look passable to those who aren't familiar with AP. But put a 3120 side by side with the fake movement and there are very obvious differences, and I'm sure murokello and others can also back me up on this. And if you're familiar with AP (and have seen the genuine 3120 many times), you don't need a side by side comparison to do it. It's easy to identify a 3120 at a glance once you're familiar with it, and no fake I've seen comes close to replicating the look.


----------



## JPCass

yskhyr said:


> Yes, the movement is obviously fake and looks nothing like the real cal. 3120 (other than the rotor, but the printing on that is also of obviously lesser quality than a real one). One characteristic that's off: balance wheel and balance bridge on the fake movement is at 6 o'clock, which is the wrong place.
> 
> Mind you, I'm not saying that I would expect someone who has no knowledge of AP to look at the fake movement and identify it as a fake movement - it may look passable to those who aren't familiar with AP. But put a 3120 side by side with the fake movement and there are very obvious differences, and I'm sure murokello and others can also back me up on this. And if you're familiar with AP (and have seen the genuine 3120 many times), you don't need a side by side comparison to do it. It's easy to identify a 3120 at a glance once you're familiar with it, and no fake I've seen comes close to replicating the look.


Thanks for sharing your experience and expertise.

If they're really starting with a Miyota 9015 movement, below, they've done quite a bit - an almost scary amount - of rebuilding of it to try to get things like the bridge and rotor center plate looking, well, passable to the untrained eye.

​








In the course of doing a bit more research and searching, I also found a picture of an earlier-generation fake where they have changed the movement less, such as leaving in the Miyota's 3 screws in the rotor center plate, where the AP has 2 screws and what looks like a visible jewel:


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## murokello

JPCass said:


> The ticks don't line up as perfectly as they do on the reference photograph - but they seem not to on quite a few examples, including some loose dials that I found listed for sale (no bezel distortion) for sale, so that seems within AP's quality control norms. It also struck me that it seemed less than probable that a faker would bother to work in gold, though on further thought that might increase profit margins enough to be worthwhile. But how do we know it's real gold? There's the image at the top of page 3 of this thread used to illustrate a fake Royal Oak movement - which shows a convincing-looking gold-colored case with AU750 marking: https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/ap-15400-royal-oak-authentic-4653959-3.html#post45461715 The apparent original source for that image states that it is actually "316L stainless steel, with gold coating": [LINK REMOVED] (I hope it's acceptable to insert that link, in order to illustrate the point here)[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] The dial on that fake also looks pretty good at first glance:
> View attachment 12953615
> That's assuming, of course, that the site isn't pulling the trick of using photographs of an authentic AP Golden Oak - but they're representing that fakes are being executed with that level of detail, so it has to at least be given serious consideration. This is why I still think that the OP may want to kick it up a level with AP and make absolutely sure that the watch is, well, golden....


 I think if you can't say if that one is fake then you really should have not commented in this thread. I mean just look at the movement. There is so much wrong with it (I'm not going to list them but I can send a PM if you want). Just google "audemars piguet 3120 movement", open some pics like (http://www.armstrongrockwell.com/audemars-piguet/AProseRoyalOakI33876Bk.jpg, http://cdn.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Audemars-Piguet-Calibre-3120-movement-600x450.jpg), put your eyeglasses on and compare. Besides the numerous obvious wrong things with that fake movement just look at the rotor engraving, it is crap. This is no rocket science. Ps. I edited away the link from the text I quoted because of the rules


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## PJ S

Gigaton...sorry, Hippo... as you’ve been told already on TRF, you had nothing to worry about the watch’s authenticity, even before visiting the AP boutique.


----------



## JPCass

murokello said:


> I think if you can't say if that one is fake then you really should have not commented in this thread. I mean just look at the movement. There is so much wrong with it (I'm not going to list them but I can send a PM if you want). Just google "audemars piguet 3120 movement", open some pics like (http://www.armstrongrockwell.com/audemars-piguet/AProseRoyalOakI33876Bk.jpg, http://cdn.luxuo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Audemars-Piguet-Calibre-3120-movement-600x450.jpg), put your eyeglasses on and compare. Besides the numerous obvious wrong things with that fake movement just look at the rotor engraving, it is crap. This is no rocket science. Ps. I edited away the link from the text I quoted because of the rules


I'm trying to learn, and at the point I joined in several people with apparently more history here than me, had expressed doubts or declared it a fake, while I don't think that any of the more expert hands like you had chimed in yet.

One thing I've learned, is that the registration of dial markings on production pieces, like the minute ticks, can vary from reference photographs (even taking into account photographic angles and distortion - another thing to learn about) by more that might necessarily be expected when you "put your eyeglasses on and compare" even on a watch like an AP, so it is more art than science in some ways. I'm lead to wonder if ADs get in some pieces that are more, well, crappy on that account than they're happy with, and dump them on the gray market.​







(stock photo)








(in the wild - and I found worse)








(OP watch photo, detail)

I appreciate the pictures, and did have a closer look at those. It is new to me - and apparently, a relatively new development in the market, see the picture I put up of a more obviously fake Miyota adaptation from just a couple of years ago - that movements are being faked well enough that it's not obvious at first glance.

And, do you think the report in an earlier comment is true or not, that there are some fake movements that can't be identified without partially disassembling the watch? It seems to me that if a couple of points of finish on the Miyota adaptation were better (and could be, in a next generation fake) then it might be necessary to at least take the movement out of the case to see what its base is.

I appreciate your sharing your experience and expertise.


----------



## murokello

JPCass said:


> I'm trying to learn, and at the point I joined in several people with apparently more history here than me, had expressed doubts or declared it a fake, while I don't think that any of the more expert hands like you had chimed in yet. One thing I've learned, is that the registration of dial markings on production pieces, like the minute ticks, can vary from reference photographs (even taking into account photographic angles and distortion - another thing to learn about) by more that might necessarily be expected when you "put your eyeglasses on and compare" even on a watch like an AP, so it is more art than science in some ways. I'm lead to wonder if ADs get in some pieces that are more, well, crappy on that account than they're happy with, and dump them on the gray market.​
> View attachment 12956447
> (stock photo)
> View attachment 12956327
> (in the wild - and I found worse)
> View attachment 12956491
> (OP watch photo, detail) I appreciate the pictures, and did have a closer look at those. It is new to me - and apparently, a relatively new development in the market, see the picture I put up of a more obviously fake Miyota adaptation from just a couple of years ago - that movements are being faked well enough that it's not obvious at first glance. And, do you think the report in an earlier comment is true or not, that there are some fake movements that can't be identified without partially disassembling the watch? It seems to me that if a couple of points of finish on the Miyota adaptation were better (and could be, in a next generation fake) then it might be necessary to at least take the movement out of the case to see what its base is. I appreciate your sharing your experience and expertise.


 I'm not an expert. Just trying to say that it is always easier to start with the movement when doing fake spotting rather than concentrating on some marker that looks to off by a nanometer in one of the pics. If people would have done this they would have immediately noticed that the watch OP posted has an authentic AP movement.


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## WTSP

It’s real. Suivant, next!


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## JPCass

murokello said:


> I'm not an expert. Just trying to say that it is always easier to start with the movement when doing fake spotting rather than concentrating on some marker that looks to off by a nanometer in one of the pics. If people would have done this they would have immediately noticed that the watch OP posted has an authentic AP movement.


I'm used to looking at movements as the major "tell", too - but am used to them being more blatantly wrong, something that's apparently changing and that, yes, I'm getting schooled on. And if there are in fact some even better fakes out there, or the Chinese are already on to the next generation and have learned to duplicate the whole movement rather than just modifying a Miyota, can we really say anything more than that it appears authentic without further inspection?

The marks are off by more than a couple of microns. Some of the first photos posted by the OP made it appear as if the 12 o'clock marks were off by closer to a millimeter, and while it turned out that's not the case, they're certainly off by more like two tenths:








(closeup from OP photo)


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## PJ S

^
They haven’t replicated the movement — all they’ve done is make bridges in the same style as the 3120.
The one thing they can’t do, is relocate the balance wheel and change its design to mimic that of the 3120’s.
Once you know that, spotting a fake is very simple and straight forward.


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## JPCass

Gary123 said:


> If you bought from an AP AD, I would not worry.
> 
> And if there is something to worry about, it is very possible that no one here could assist you. I spoke to an AP dealer 2 years ago who told me they are seeing extraordinarily high end fakes from Italy that are so finely made a partial disassembly of the movement is necessary to make a determination.


Is there any way to verify whether this is true, about the supposed Italian fakes?


----------



## Gary123

JPCass said:


> Is there any way to verify whether this is true, about the supposed Italian fakes?


I don't know how expensive a watch needs to be in order for a "super fake" to be made. My guess is around $25,000 minimum retail. I don't know if AP will comment on this. I was told this by a grey market dealer I have been dealing with for years, one of the largest grey market dealers in the US. He knows because he got burned on a pre owned AP ROO superfake and now is very tentative about buying preowned AP ROO's. He sells grey market direct from manufacturers and AD's, but also finds pre owneds for his clients.


----------



## JPCass

Gary123 said:


> I don't know how expensive a watch needs to be in order for a "super fake" to be made. My guess is around $25,000 minimum retail. I don't know if AP will comment on this. I was told this by a grey market dealer I have been dealing with for years, one of the largest grey market dealers in the US. He knows because he got burned on a pre owned AP ROO superfake and now is very tentative about buying preowned AP ROO's. He sells grey market direct from manufacturers and AD's, but also finds pre owneds for his clients.


Thanks for detailing that. It seems like a fairly solid tip to pass on.

I'm sure everyone would like to see this verified one way or another. If true, it would be a game changer.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Take it back to an AUTHORISED DISTRIBUTER for an estimateto to test time keeping (tell them its running slow) and post here his written estimate to repair

WATCH IS FAKE
Adam


----------



## ridley

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Take it back to an AUTHORISED DISTRIBUTER for an estimateto to test time keeping (tell them its running slow) and post here his written estimate to repair
> 
> WATCH IS FAKE
> Adam


Wrong thread! ??


----------



## HOROLOGIST007

ridley said:


> Wrong thread! ??


Was responding to this
https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/ap-15400-royal-oak-authentic-4653959.html#post45453949

Its FAKE


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## JPCass

PJ S said:


> ^
> They haven't replicated the movement - all they've done is make bridges in the same style as the 3120.
> The one thing they can't do, is relocate the balance wheel and change its design to mimic that of the 3120's.
> Once you know that, spotting a fake is very simple and straight forward.


All we know is that the most recent generation of the openly available sub-$1K fakes that we're aware of, still hasn't replicated the movement closely enough not to be readily obvious to people familiar with the real thing; or to the rest of us if we do the sort of close comparison with real movements that wasn't even necessary with the last, more obvious generation of knockoffs.

I don't think that we don't know that they "can't do" that - replicate the movement - in the next generation of openly available fakes, which could already be out there, or in some more expensive knockoffs that aren't being advertised on websites.

In other areas of collecting that I deal with, pretty much everything that people once said that fakers could never do, or would not go to the trouble and expense to do, has now been done.

I think that now that Adam has chipped in with his opinion and experience, enough doubts have been raised that a piece of this value ought to be verified by someone higher up at AP and with more expertise than a clerk at a boutique, as he suggests.


----------



## m0c021

JPCass said:


> All we know is that the most recent generation of the openly available sub-$1K fakes that we're aware of, still hasn't replicated the movement closely enough not to be readily obvious to people familiar with the real thing; or to the rest of us if we do the sort of close comparison with real movements that wasn't even necessary with the last, more obvious generation of knockoffs.
> 
> I don't think that we don't know that they "can't do" that - replicate the movement - in the next generation of openly available fakes, which could already be out there, or in some more expensive knockoffs that aren't being advertised on websites.
> 
> In other areas of collecting that I deal with, pretty much everything that people once said that fakers could never do, or would not go to the trouble and expense to do, has now been done.
> 
> I think that now that Adam has chipped in with his opinion and experience, enough doubts have been raised that a piece of this value ought to be verified by someone higher up at AP and with more expertise than a clerk at a boutique, as he suggests.


So no base movement that is readily available has the balance wheel and bridges at the correct location. This would mean it has to be backward engineered or made from scratch. The sole purpose of counterfeits is to be able to sell enough to make a profit before the general masses pick up on the telling signs of a fake. Now if a counterfeit company is going to backward engineer or make a new movement for a fake, they will have to sell quite a bit to make up for that initial investment. I don't foresee anyone putting up that kind of money up front with no real guarantee to make it back. At least when you start with a generic movement, the profit margin is so large that you only need to see a small percentage to make up for what was invested. Any additional sales would be profit, even if it sold at 80% off the real item's MSRP.

One thing that I did want to see but was missing in the pictures is a side view of the case. It would be quite difficult to keep it thin and have all the parts in the right location without changing the thickness. However, I did think it was genuine from the initial photos.

Another point in regards to the minute markers (not the hour ones), it is stamped in with a putty. Below is the link to how the dial is made. Please refer to 1:49 to see how it is stamped on. Any small shift of the dial or the putty could have affected where these minute markers were applied. The hour markers are etched to have a dip for the indices to be applied, which can be seen at 0:51 in the same link. The OP's hour markers look to be dead on (compared to the tapisserie pattern).


----------



## JPCass

m0c021 said:


> So no base movement that is readily available has the balance wheel and bridges at the correct location. This would mean it has to be backward engineered or made from scratch. The sole purpose of counterfeits is to be able to sell enough to make a profit before the general masses pick up on the telling signs of a fake. Now if a counterfeit company is going to backward engineer or make a new movement for a fake, they will have to sell quite a bit to make up for that initial investment. I don't foresee anyone putting up that kind of money up front with no real guarantee to make it back. At least when you start with a generic movement, the profit margin is so large that you only need to see a small percentage to make up for what was invested. Any additional sales would be profit, even if it sold at 80% off the real item's MSRP.
> 
> One thing that I did want to see but was missing in the pictures is a side view of the case. It would be quite difficult to keep it thin and have all the parts in the right location without changing the thickness. However, I did think it was genuine from the initial photos.
> 
> Another point in regards to the minute markers (not the hour ones), it is stamped in with a putty. Below is the link to how the dial is made. Please refer to 1:49 to see how it is stamped on. Any small shift of the dial or the putty could have affected where these minute markers were applied. The hour markers are etched to have a dip for the indices to be applied, which can be seen at 0:51 in the same link. The OP's hour markers look to be dead on (compared to the tapisserie pattern).


The most recent generation (that we know of) of fakes openly sold in the $750 range goes fairly far in backward-engineering the most visible parts of the mechanism to look like the real thing. It would only be a few steps more now for them to make a whole replica mechanism, and that's just the process that the Chinese historically have taken in copying Western goods and technology, a patient and incremental one.

Plus someone else, Chinese or, as rumored, Italian, could be making higher-end fakes that they sell for thousands of dollars, but which could be pawned off for tens of thousands of dollars - there are definitely good profit margins in that. I think that there is a larger internal market in Asia (including India, Vietnam, etc.) and other parts of the second- and third-world for fakes than we may realize, meaning that it is easier for producers of bogus goods to recoup startup and setup costs.

The hour markers on the OP's dial may be okay, but the minute markers are definitely off from where they should be, at least ideally, and particularly for such a high-end watch. So is it a sign of AP quality control variations - and that maybe a dealer who got in a watch not up to their standards, dumped it in the gray market - or is it a sign of something more completely wrong with the watch, which several people believe to be a high-end fake?


----------



## m0c021

JPCass said:


> The most recent generation (that we know of) of openly sold fakes in the $750 range goes fairly far in backward-engineering the most visible parts of the mechanism to look like the real thing. It would only be a few steps more now for them to make a whole replica mechanism, and that's just the process that the Chinese historically have taken in copying Western goods and technology, a patient and incremental one.
> 
> Plus someone else, Chinese or, as rumored, Italian, could be making higher-end fakes that they sell for thousands of dollars, but which could be pawned off for tens of thousands of dollars - there are definitely good profit margins in that. I think that there is a larger internal market in Asia (including India, Vietnam, etc.) and other parts of the second- and third-world for fakes than we may realize, meaning that it is easier for producers of bogus goods to recoup startup and setup costs.
> 
> The hour markerson the OP's dial ​may be okay, but the minute markers are definitely off from where they should be, at least ideally, and particularly for so expensive a watch. So is it a sign of AP quality control sloppiness - and that maybe a dealer who got in a watch not up to their standards, dumped it in the gray market - or is it a sign of something more completely wrong with the watch, which several people believe to be a high-end fake?


I have to disagree with your point one. Taking a base movement and adding plates that look like the genuine 3120 movement is not reverse engineering. That is like saying I take a Toyota engine and put it in a Ferrari but then put plastic coverings over the engine that look like the Ferrari one but in different places. The fake 3120 (modified stock) movement has the balance wheel and the bridge in the wrong place compared to the real 3120. That is because all they did was replace the visible pieces and made new ones that look similar to the 3120. To say that is very close to having a completely different design that has components in different locations is a bit far fetched. Even if the counterfeit can magically get a design that has the different components in the right location, it will probably be thicker in design. Even if it is the same thickness as the 3120, they now have to buy/manufacture machines that can make the components and then hire watchmakers that can put it together. The investment it takes to make a replicate movement with similar specs (components in the right location) would cost a lot more than you're suggesting. This is a great thing since it makes faking the movement prohibitively costly.


----------



## MarkieB

Gary123 said:


> AP does maintain a database of serial numbers that have been identified on fakes. .


What happens if you have the genuine watch that the fakers took the serial number from....does it become a fake too.....


----------



## MarkieB

Can never understand why people who make fakes that are so convincing don't make their own brand of watch...... a bit like the baddies in Scooby-Do who can make space crafts and aliens look real and instead of making millions in Hollywood try to scare off a few kids to get $100 worth of gold!


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## HOROLOGIST007

The counterfeiters can NOT make movements. They make fake watches.
They buy the movements from movement manufacturers. That used to be ETA, which was a pain when many legitimate manufactutrers (Breitling, Tag) also used ETA.

The counterfeiters now use (in most cases) Asian movements. The ASIAN movement manufacturers are BIG legitimate companies like Miyota (owned by CITIZEN) , SEAGULL and SEIKO
These companies do NOT make fakes - or reverse engineer anything.

There are some other Asian movement manufacturers that bring out movements that EMULATE ETA or Others and that is now what the "countefeiters" use - BUT these movements look nothing like genuine - the counterfeiter adds all decoration/Names.

For example there is NO Asian 7750 with 25 Jewels!


----------



## WTSP

It doesn't take much to spot a 2824 clone with a custom rotor...










The OP's watch is real. His whole story, plus all the papers in the photo, support that as much as his photos do.


----------



## m0c021

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> The counterfeiters can NOT make movements. They make fake watches.
> They buy the movements from movement manufacturers. That used to be ETA, which was a pain when many legitimate manufactutrers (Breitling, Tag) also used ETA.
> 
> The counterfeiters now use (in most cases) Asian movements. The ASIAN movement manufacturers are BIG legitimate companies like Miyota (owned by CITIZEN) , SEAGULL and SEIKO
> These companies do NOT make fakes - or reverse engineer anything.
> 
> There are some other Asian movement manufacturers that bring out movements that EMULATE ETA or Others and that is now what the "countefeiters" use - BUT these movements look nothing like genuine - the counterfeiter adds all decoration/Names.
> 
> For example there is NO Asian 7750 with 25 Jewels!


Precisely my point. It does not make sense for a counterfeiter to make their own movement to match the genuine such as the 3120 for AP. It's a pretty big leap from simply changing parts out with more decorated ones compared to producing a movement with components at the right location.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007

WTSP said:


> It doesn't take much to spot a 2824 clone with a custom rotor...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The OP's watch is real. His whole story, plus all the papers in the photo, support that as much as his photos do.


That photo is a low end fake. New fakes have a near exact rotor bearing and 22Kt gold rotor

I asked OP to post a few movement photos with the watch hacked. I will reconfirm or apologize once I see thoughs

Best
Adam


----------



## JPCass

WTSP said:


> It doesn't take much to spot a 2824 clone with a custom rotor...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The OP's watch is real. His whole story, plus all the papers in the photo, support that as much as his photos do.


That was what the previous generation sub-$1000 fakes looked like a couple of years ago. This is what they're doing now at the same price point - at least what we know about, and have pictures of - that takes a bit more to spot:










The OP's story, which was somewhat unclear at first, now seems to be that he bought it from a new dealer who he was introduced to, not an AD. At best it's gray market, perhaps dumped by an AD that didn't think the dial was up to their standards; at worst, the dial is a sign that something is really wrong. As several others have said, and at this price point, the OP probably should have someone really knowledgeable at AP look under the hood of the watch.


----------



## HOROLOGIST007

The 3rd generation Super Fakes are way better than above
A


----------



## Vlance

I could tell you with my eyes closed and just picking it up.


----------



## JPCass

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> The counterfeiters can NOT make movements. They make fake watches.
> They buy the movements from movement manufacturers. That used to be ETA, which was a pain when many legitimate manufactutrers (Breitling, Tag) also used ETA.
> 
> The counterfeiters now use (in most cases) Asian movements. The ASIAN movement manufacturers are BIG legitimate companies like Miyota (owned by CITIZEN) , SEAGULL and SEIKO
> These companies do NOT make fakes - or reverse engineer anything.
> 
> There are some other Asian movement manufacturers that bring out movements that EMULATE ETA or Others and that is now what the "countefeiters" use - BUT these movements look nothing like genuine - the counterfeiter adds all decoration/Names.
> 
> For example there is NO Asian 7750 with 25 Jewels!


How then would they get a close enough copy of the AP 2120/1 in-house movement? The Miyota 9015 movement that the fakes illustrated here are based has some fundamental differences in configuration, and thus for instance the balance wheel in a modification of it will presumably always be at a different place on the mechanism (relatively to the stem, and so to the case) than on an AP 2120/1, and is obviously wrong on close inspection and comparison to an AP 2120 even if other details like the balance bridge are replicated.


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## JPCass

m0c021 said:


> I have to disagree with your point one. Taking a base movement and adding plates that look like the genuine 3120 movement is not reverse engineering. That is like saying I take a Toyota engine and put it in a Ferrari but then put plastic coverings over the engine that look like the Ferrari one but in different places. The fake 3120 (modified stock) movement has the balance wheel and the bridge in the wrong place compared to the real 3120. That is because all they did was replace the visible pieces and made new ones that look similar to the 3120. To say that is very close to having a completely different design that has components in different locations is a bit far fetched. Even if the counterfeit can magically get a design that has the different components in the right location, it will probably be thicker in design. Even if it is the same thickness as the 3120, they now have to buy/manufacture machines that can make the components and then hire watchmakers that can put it together. The investment it takes to make a replicate movement with similar specs (components in the right location) would cost a lot more than you're suggesting. This is a great thing since it makes faking the movement prohibitively costly.


I realize that I may have overstated just how far this latest fake example goes towards full replicating the AP movement. But the fakers in this case have done more than just superficial things, they've made a differently configured bridge and other parts, which would at least be more analogous to putting a different cylinder head on an engine. They have a ways to go, but they're obviously working on it - and they, or someone else, may have gotten it already.

However, since we have several reports here that really convincing fakes of this watch, including its movement, are being made, the question here may not be the theory of whether or not it could be done, but what the details are of how, by whom and where it is being done. Is there is a convincing or compelling reason to discount those reports as mistaken or false?

I thought an interesting example would be the Seagull/Tianjin 2130 ultrathin movement with date that replicates the ETA 2824-2, which is is 4.6mm high compared to the AP 3120's height of 4.26 mm, a difference of only .34 mm or barely more than 1/100 of an inch taller, so the Chinese can certainly manufacture thin movements - and at a price point around $100 with perlage and côtes de Genève. Other Chinese manufacturers also clone the ETA, and are known for providing the movements used in some fakes, so the ability to produce such movements is out in the Chinese economy. If someone could produce a convincing-looking AP 3120 copy or clone in small batches at 10 or even 20 times the cost of the SeaGull, there would still be good money to be made selling those into a supply chain that put them in cases costing a couple of hundred dollars and ultimately peddled fakes for tens of thousands of dollars (perhaps along the way selling cheaper fakes into Asian markets, to get the advantages of volume).

I'm not certain if that's happened yet, or if it's the case in the OP's example, but it may be more a question of when, than if.

The question has been asked, why go to the trouble of faking, rather than introducing a new brand. The first answer is that the margins are much higher for names and brands that have recognition and cachet, even when the underlying quality or value are not necessarily outstanding - it's the same problem most artisans and artists face, and why some of them resort to forgery, like the frustrated Chinese modern artist in Queens, NY who wasn't getting the recognition for his work that he had in the old country, and who turned to forging modern masters that the Knoedler Galleries then infamously sold for millions and even tens of millions of dollars. The second answer is that establishing Chinese brands, and even establishing China as a center of luxury watch manufacturing, may in fact be the long term goal; Asian manufacturing has often started out by first producing crude copies, then moving on to knockoffs and counterfeits and finally getting established as legitimate sources and brands. The first Toyotas in the 1930s, for instance, resorted to copying Chevrolet engines when attempts to produce "in-house" designs failed, and they continued to clone Chevy engines and to copy Chrysler chassis ad gearboxes, virtually cloned whole Chevy trucks with parts-compatible engines, and built a copy of the Jeep after the war.


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## murokello

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> That photo is a low end fake. New fakes have a near exact rotor bearing and 22Kt gold rotor I asked OP to post a few movement photos with the watch hacked. I will reconfirm or apologize once I see thoughs Best Adam


 Before he does please tell us why you say it is a fake? Why you need more pics if you already made your mind about it?


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## HOROLOGIST007

murokello said:


> Before he does please tell us why you say it is a fake? Why you need more pics if you already made your mind about it?


Sorry. I dont post my reasons on internet.
I asked for better photos so I can be 100% certain.

A


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## murokello

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Sorry. I dont post my reasons on internet. I asked for better photos so I can be 100% certain. A


 Well if you want to see the balance wheen inertia adjustment screws you can see they are there (even though the watch is running) in the second set of pics the OP provided. That is a real AP movement.


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## HOROLOGIST007

OP has sent me a number of decent photos
I confirm that the watch is 100% GENUINE - NO doubt in my mind.

Apologies for jumping to too quick a decision based on 1st photos, thats a problem with trying to authenticate over the internet.

Thanks to OP - ENJOY your watch
adam


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## DiscoHippodrome

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> OP has sent me a number of decent photos
> I confirm that the watch is 100% GENUINE - NO doubt in my mind.
> 
> Apologies for jumping to too quick a decision based on 1st photos, thats a problem with trying to authenticate over the internet.
> 
> Thanks to OP - ENJOY your watch
> adam


Thanks Adam. For the record, here are the new, more detailed pics I showed; also an opportunity to show off the beautiful movement


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## WTSP

That new improved replica of the AP RO certainly is troubling. On the other hand, I still think that it’s still possible to reliably identify a large majority of fakes. 

Most of us are familiar with key factors:
1- Configuration, color placement, sizing of various cosmetic and design elements
2- Design and finish of the movement
3- Use of genuine materials for the strap, crystal, precious metals, etc.
4- Brand and/or model that is not commonly faked 
5- Presence of properly formatted and well produced papers and box
6- Supplied by a reliable seller
7- Paid for at a reasonably high market price

If you have check marks next to all the items listed above, you can be 99.9% certain your watch is real. People generally seem to focus on factor #1, assuming that there is some sort of arcane knowledge or set of tricks to determine fakes, and underestimating the importance of the other factors. If a buyer were to purchase one of the lesser copied watch models that seemed cosmetically perfect, had a completely reverse engineered movement, had a genuine alligator and sapphire crystal, came with accurate box and papers, and was sold by an AD, then what is there left to do... You’ve been a victim of a criminal mastermind in the face of which we’d all be powerless.

That’s an extremely exceptional scenario though. Typically the hard to spot fakes are popular watches that are cosmetically easy to fake, sold on the second hand market, without boxes and papers. The moral of the story is don’t buy a Hublot Big Bang, Rolex Sub or IWC Pilot without box and papers off of eBay.

Lastly, the OP’s latest photos illustrate one thing that easily identifies high end watches in an instant. They typically have a certain visual sharpness that is impossible to create without having the best materials and finishing at all levels of the watch. It takes a fraction of a second to see and feel. I expect that it is also unlikely to be faked.


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## m0c021

My comments are in bold in the quote. Just to be clear, I am just having an open discussion with other members of this forum. I like to know when I am wrong or if the market has changed since I last looked. I haven't really been worried about fake 3120 movements since I purchased my RO, so my understanding could be outdated.



JPCass said:


> I realize that I may have overstated just how far this latest fake example goes towards full replicating the AP movement. But the fakers in this case have done more than just superficial things, they've made a differently configured bridge and other parts, which would at least be more analogous to putting a different cylinder head on an engine. They have a ways to go, but they're obviously working on it - and they, or someone else, may have gotten it already.
> 
> *Is it really differently configured or is it just a differently shaped parts that replaced the original Miyota? I actually don't know enough about the fakes but I was under the impression, the entire engine is the same just different parts were replacing the original. You are correct in saying that different cylinder head vs a covering.*
> 
> However, since we have several reports here that really convincing fakes of this watch, including its movement, are being made, the question here may not be the theory of whether or not it could be done, but what the details are of how, by whom and where it is being done. Is there is a convincing or compelling reason to discount those reports as mistaken or false?
> 
> *All the convincing fakes are of the decoration. This has absolutely nothing to do with the placement of the components such as the balance wheel and bridge. Of course they can make a movement that has the components in the right location but would be prohibitively costly. Again, every single fake for the 3120 (convincing or not) does not have the components in the right place. If I am wrong, please direct me to any source that has a counterfeit/fake that has the correct location of the components.*
> 
> I thought an interesting example would be the Seagull/Tianjin 2130 ultrathin movement with date that replicates the ETA 2824-2, which is is 4.6mm high compared to the AP 3120's height of 4.26 mm, a difference of only .34 mm or barely more than 1/100 of an inch taller, so the Chinese can certainly manufacture thin movements - and at a price point around $100 with perlage and côtes de Genève. Other Chinese manufacturers also clone the ETA, and are known for providing the movements used in some fakes, so the ability to produce such movements is out in the Chinese economy. If someone could produce a convincing-looking AP 3120 copy or clone in small batches at 10 or even 20 times the cost of the SeaGull, there would still be good money to be made selling those into a supply chain that put them in cases costing a couple of hundred dollars and ultimately peddled fakes for tens of thousands of dollars (perhaps along the way selling cheaper fakes into Asian markets, to get the advantages of volume).
> 
> *Yes, they obviously have the capabilities to manufacture pretty much anything. The 2130 movement you mentioned is being sold as that right? It is not being manufactured solely for the purpose to be a counterfeit, correct? If that is so, they would have a much higher volume of sales, meaning they can recoup the initial cost to set up production. I have some limited experience in manufacturing, but from what little knowledge I do have, it would cost hundreds of thousands to set up shop, even in China with low labor cost. After setting up shop, there is probably a contract of a length of time for the plant, so there would be a cost moving forward regardless of how many movements are being made. That is quite a bit of cost/investment to make up before any profits will show. Again, I could be completely wrong, but as I see it, there is no real threat to a counterfeit movement with all the correct configurations for the 3120 movement right now.*
> 
> I'm not certain if that's happened yet, or if it's the case in the OP's example, but it may be more a question of when, than if.
> 
> The question has been asked, why go to the trouble of faking, rather than introducing a new brand. The first answer is that the margins are much higher for names and brands that have recognition and cachet, even when the underlying quality or value are not necessarily outstanding - it's the same problem most artisans and artists face, and why some of them resort to forgery, like the frustrated Chinese modern artist in Queens, NY who wasn't getting the recognition for his work that he had in the old country, and who turned to forging modern masters that the Knoedler Galleries then infamously sold for millions and even tens of millions of dollars. The second answer is that establishing Chinese brands, and even establishing China as a center of luxury watch manufacturing, may in fact be the long term goal; Asian manufacturing has often started out by first producing crude copies, then moving on to knockoffs and counterfeits and finally getting established as legitimate sources and brands. The first Toyotas in the 1930s, for instance, resorted to copying Chevrolet engines when attempts to produce "in-house" designs failed, and they continued to clone Chevy engines and to copy Chrysler chassis ad gearboxes, virtually cloned whole Chevy trucks with parts-compatible engines, and built a copy of the Jeep after the war.
> *
> So this is basically my point. If they can design a movement from scratch that has the specifications they want, then there is no need to make a replicate/counterfeit. Companies are out there making fake AP RO because they don't have to design a movement. They are just buying mass made movements for $40-$100, change out some parts maybe for a few hundred more, and then selling it for a huge mark up. They don't care if 90% of those fakes get trashed or confiscated because the profit margins are so large, they just need to sell a small % to make a profit.*


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## Brian61992

Hope it turns out!


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## murokello

JPCass said:


> All we know is that the most recent generation of the openly available sub-$1K fakes that we're aware of, still hasn't replicated the movement closely enough not to be readily obvious to people familiar with the real thing; or to the rest of us if we do the sort of close comparison with real movements that wasn't even necessary with the last, more obvious generation of knockoffs. I don't think that we don't know that they "can't do" that - replicate the movement - in the next generation of openly available fakes, which could already be out there, or in some more expensive knockoffs that aren't being advertised on websites. In other areas of collecting that I deal with, pretty much everything that people once said that fakers could never do, or would not go to the trouble and expense to do, has now been done. I think that now that Adam has chipped in with his opinion and experience, enough doubts have been raised that a piece of this value ought to be verified by someone higher up at AP and with more expertise than a clerk at a boutique, as he suggests.


I would like to hear more about those Italian super fakes that you have been talking about. Are you able to provide any information about their existence?


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## JPCass

DiscoHippodrome said:


> Thanks Adam. For the record, here are the new, more detailed pics I showed; also an opportunity to show off the beautiful movement


That's a lovely movement, alright. While researching it a bit to better understand some of the questions that arose, I came to appreciate it, and the story of its development - back when I first encountered AP and the RO, they were outsourcing the movements, which didn't impress me. I looked again a couple of years ago, at their ultrathins, and decided it wasn't quite for me - but I was looking at a stainless model, that gold version is really beautiful.

I'm glad that you got a second opinion about it. It sounds as if there are some fakes out there with movements so close to the real thing that they might even fool dealers, and which require examining details down to things like the balance wheel.


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## JPCass

murokello said:


> I would like to hear more about those Italian super fakes that you have been talking about. Are you able to provide any information about their existence?


Gary123 posted about that originally:

AP 15400 Royal Oak Authentic? - Page 3

More recently he posted a bit more detail about what the AP dealer told him regarding the fakes, but without mentioning the supposed Italian source. I agree, I'd like to know more about that, and getter better confirmation. And apparently Adam thinks that there are fakes out that so closely replicate the AP movement, that they can only be identified with the sort of close-up photos of the balance wheel when hacked, that the OP only posted recently.

I looked around a bit to see if other Swiss in-house movements were actually being cloned, and I came up with information claiming that at least 9 different Rolex models are: disassembled, measured and laser-scanned with an accuracy to .001mm, with the data then fed into a CAD/CAM system driving CNC machines that produce cloned parts. If they can really do that with Rolex, then they could probably do it with AP - and quite possibly in small runs at fairly low cost points. I'd wondered if they were getting to the point of replication with scanning and CNC - some might even call it 3D printing - and if they are, that would explain the fakes that have to be disassembled (exactly what is claimed about the 9 Rolex movements), and be a real game changer. It appears that these fakes would be 50% or more expensive that the 2nd-generation AP ones we've seen photos of here, but still not too far over $1K.


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## DiscoHippodrome

JPCass said:


> murokello said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would like to hear more about those Italian super fakes that you have been talking about. Are you able to provide any information about their existence?
> 
> 
> 
> Gary123 posted about that originally:
> 
> AP 15400 Royal Oak Authentic? - Page 3
> 
> More recently he posted a bit more detail about what the AP dealer told him regarding the fakes, but without mentioning the supposed Italian source. I agree, I'd like to know more about that, and getter better confirmation. And apparently Adam thinks that there are fakes out that so closely replicate the AP movement, that they can only be identified with the sort of close-up photos of the balance wheel when hacked, that the OP only posted recently.
> 
> I looked around a bit to see if other Swiss in-house movements were actually being cloned, and I came up with information claiming that at least 9 different Rolex models are: disassembled, measured and laser-scanned with an accuracy to .001mm, with the data then fed into a CAD/CAM system driving CNC machines that produce cloned parts. If they can really do that with Rolex, then they could probably do it with AP - and quite possibly in small runs at fairly low cost points. I'd wondered if they were getting to the point of replication with scanning and CNC - some might even call it 3D printing - and if they are, that would explain the fakes that have to be disassembled (exactly what is claimed about the 9 Rolex movements), and be a real game changer. It appears that these fakes would be 50% or more expensive that the 2nd-generation AP ones we've seen photos of here, but still not too far over $1K.
Click to expand...

I think that's what Murokello is talking about. There's a lot of "I heard someone say ..." or "I read somewhere that ..." But a lot of this seems to be unverifiable hearsay (or sometimes double, triple hearsay). Would be nice to see if someone could actually substantiate these rumors about "Italian super fakes," other than what an alleged dealer told a stranger on this forum, with perhaps a real hands-on analysis of the "super fakes" mentioned here. I have yet to see even a photo. Just my 2 cents.


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## m0c021

murokello said:


> Before he does please tell us why you say it is a fake? Why you need more pics if you already made your mind about it?





JPCass said:


> Gary123 posted about that originally:
> 
> AP 15400 Royal Oak Authentic? - Page 3
> 
> More recently he posted a bit more detail about what the AP dealer told him regarding the fakes, but without mentioning the supposed Italian source. I agree, I'd like to know more about that, and getter better confirmation. And apparently Adam thinks that there are fakes out that so closely replicate the AP movement, that they can only be identified with the sort of close-up photos of the balance wheel when hacked, that the OP only posted recently.
> 
> I looked around a bit to see if other Swiss in-house movements were actually being cloned, and I came up with information claiming that at least 9 different Rolex models are: disassembled, measured and laser-scanned with an accuracy to .001mm, with the data then fed into a CAD/CAM system driving CNC machines that produce cloned parts. If they can really do that with Rolex, then they could probably do it with AP - and quite possibly in small runs at fairly low cost points. I'd wondered if they were getting to the point of replication with scanning and CNC - some might even call it 3D printing - and if they are, that would explain the fakes that have to be disassembled (exactly what is claimed about the 9 Rolex movements), and be a real game changer. It appears that these fakes would be 50% or more expensive that the 2nd-generation AP ones we've seen photos of here, but still not too far over $1K.


Can you share that source, please? I would like to take a look to see just how much the fakes are doing. If they are literally making every single part, then it would be extremely cost-ineffective to be making a fake. Mind as well make their own brand. However, if they are just replacing the visible parts, then they are still subject to the original movement design such as wheel/bridge placement. You can put identical looking fake parts but if the wheel/bridge is in the wrong place, it's not gonna be fooling anyone that knows the genuine movement.


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## murokello

DiscoHippodrome said:


> I think that's what Murokello is talking about. There's a lot of "I heard someone say ..." or "I read somewhere that ..." But a lot of this seems to be unverifiable hearsay (or sometimes double, triple hearsay). Would be nice to see if someone could actually substantiate these rumors about "Italian super fakes," other than what an alleged dealer told a stranger on this forum, with perhaps a real hands-on analysis of the "super fakes" mentioned here. I have yet to see even a photo. Just my 2 cents.


 Yes. These "Italian super fakes" seem to be as rare as unicorns, no evidence exists about them.


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## mlcor

JPCass said:


> Gary123 posted about that originally:
> 
> AP 15400 Royal Oak Authentic? - Page 3
> 
> More recently he posted a bit more detail about what the AP dealer told him regarding the fakes, but without mentioning the supposed Italian source. I agree, I'd like to know more about that, and getter better confirmation. And apparently Adam thinks that there are fakes out that so closely replicate the AP movement, that they can only be identified with the sort of close-up photos of the balance wheel when hacked, that the OP only posted recently.
> 
> I looked around a bit to see if other Swiss in-house movements were actually being cloned, and I came up with information claiming that at least 9 different Rolex models are: disassembled, measured and laser-scanned with an accuracy to .001mm, with the data then fed into a CAD/CAM system driving CNC machines that produce cloned parts. If they can really do that with Rolex, then they could probably do it with AP - and quite possibly in small runs at fairly low cost points. I'd wondered if they were getting to the point of replication with scanning and CNC - some might even call it 3D printing - and if they are, that would explain the fakes that have to be disassembled (exactly what is claimed about the 9 Rolex movements), and be a real game changer. It appears that these fakes would be 50% or more expensive that the 2nd-generation AP ones we've seen photos of here, but still not too far over $1K.


Wouldn't the truly tricky part be the finishing of those parts? A CNC could produce exact dimensions, but the finishing still requires a lot of skill. Of course, not if you have a solid caseback, but that's why Rolex and solid AP models have always been so popular for fakes.


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## JPCass

m0c021 said:


> Can you share that source, please? I would like to take a look to see just how much the fakes are doing. If they are literally making every single part, then it would be extremely cost-ineffective to be making a fake. Mind as well make their own brand. However, if they are just replacing the visible parts, then they are still subject to the original movement design such as wheel/bridge placement. You can put identical looking fake parts but if the wheel/bridge is in the wrong place, it's not gonna be fooling anyone that knows the genuine movement.


As I understand it I'm not supposed to post a link to something like that, but I think you'll find it if you search for something like Rolex movement clones.

Apparently they ARE doing it cost-effectively with the scanning and CNC machining. 3D printing techniques are allowing for things people once thought impossible, including low price points for low volumes.

There's usually much more money in knockoffs, fakes and even forgery, and much easier money, than in trying to establish a name or brand that people recognize and particularly that they will pay a premium for.


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## JPCass

murokello said:


> Yes. These "Italian super fakes" seem to be as rare as unicorns, no evidence exists about them.


I agree that there hasn't really been satisfactory evidence provided so far, at least here. I'm hoping that Adam may chime in further about issues like clones of in-house movements, and possible techniques like 3D printing to make them. I couldn't readily find any really thorough answers to those sorts of questions online, but I did come across some accounts of how even professionals are challenged with identify the "superfakes". Particularly interesting is the very last quote, about authentic movements from stainless steel cases being put in faked gold cases, which also shows the lengths people will go to in order to capture some of the high price and profit margins on luxury goods:

Crown & Caliber has said that the percentage of fake watches that they're seeing has doubled in recent years, from 5% to 10%.
"For the longest time, even the most novice watchmaker could identify a fake simply by opening up the back of a watch and inspecting the movement inside of it. More recently, replica watch makers have gone so far as to make replica movements which visually appear to be like the authentic ones"
"The real art of identifying fakes comes in when a watchmaker or inspector has a "bad feeling" about a particular watch. They might not immediately be able to identify it as a fake, but Crown & Caliber relies on the collective knowledge its team has, as well as the knowledge from colleagues around the world to help them correctly identify a situation when a watch might be fake. "
"Crown & Caliber does not identify one or two techniques which alone allow them to reach their goal of identifying 100% of the fake watches they receive. Rather, it is a layering of protective techniques, as well as their in-house knowledge library that allows them to effectively and quickly identify the real versus replica high-end watches that come into their doors."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariela...he-art-of-identifying-fake-luxury-timepieces/

Buyer Beware: The Rise of Counterfeit Luxury Watches on the Internet​'These days, watch executives swap stories about counterfeit watches that are such spitting images of the real McCoys that the brands themselves have trouble spotting them. It's not just the imitation of what the industry calls "the appearance parts" (case, dial, bracelet, etc.); it's also the quality of the mechanical movements inside. Michel Arnoux, head of the anti-counterfeiting unit of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH), cites a counterfeit Hublot Big Bang tourbillon watch seized by Swiss customs officials. Everything about the watch seemed like a real Hublot, down to the vanilla-scented rubber strap. Only on closer inspection did he find tell-tale signs of a fake: a piece of plastic in the case where carbon should be, a crystal that should have been nonreflective, but wasn't. But what was most striking was the movement. "That was one of the first times I've held in my hand a fake tourbillon watch, a real high-precision mechanism," Arnoux told Swiss Broadcasting Corp.'s swissinfo.ch news agency. "The counterfeiters have now mastered ultra-complex movements."'
https://www.watchtime.com/blog/buyer-beware-the-rise-of-counterfeit-luxury-watches-on-the-internet/

The Era Of The Super Fake - Counterfeit Swiss Watches​"As a company we have touched on this subject many times in the past. A year or so ago we bought an amazing example of a super fake Rolex Deepsea Seadweller in Hong Kong for $300. In our article we broke a real one down next to a fake one. It was pretty unreal."
"Don't think for a second you can find safe haven buying a watch with box and papers because they are making watches with fake boxes and papers."
"In addition to that, don't even consider the idea that if you buy a second-hand watch and take it to the dealer to authenticate that they will get it right. They may tell you it's fake or has aftermarket parts because they want to sell you one of their own watches. The dealers for the most part are also not educated enough to tell if it's fake and may tell you a fake watch is real. We have seen two examples of this recently."
"One of the most popular methods of putting together an expensive super fake is making a gold case and bracelet. Literally out of solid 18 karat gold! Take a Rolex Submariner for example. It is very common in South America to make these solid gold cases and bracelets to the exact specifications as Rolex (to the untrained eye). Once the case and bracelet have been made the counterfeiters will take the movement from a stainless steel Rolex Submariner. They put the movement from the steel Rolex in the Gold Rolex and then retrofit a nice counterfeit movement in the steel watch."
https://www.raymondleejewelers.net/counterfeit-swiss-watches/


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## HOROLOGIST007

It is AGAINST all rules to discuss/debate FAKES
I will ask moderators to close this thread


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