# Does the El Primero movement 400 hack?



## Jim Jones (Apr 12, 2012)

I have absolutely fallen love with this watch

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/hands-on-with-the-zenith-el-primero-38-mm-a-trimmer-update-to-a-classic-chronograph
Over the last couple of days I have been reading all I can find about it and to my shock and horror I read a comment somewhere that said it not hackable. Can any of you guys verify this for me one way or the other?


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

No. No El Primero movements hack (witht one exception - Zenith Synopsis with ElPrimero 4613 without the chronograph, but still at 36kbph, does hack)
EP 400 movement does not hack. Which in no way detracts from the beauty of this watch.

PS. FYI - Most of Patek and Breguet watches do not hack either. It is not viewed as something that adds to the movements (although non-hacking movements tend to be found primarily in cheaper watches, I admit).


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## Jim Jones (Apr 12, 2012)

Such a shame but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised every time I think I have found my grail something comes along to spoil it. Please don’t take offense you pic is the exact watch that I've fallen in love with I think it's truly a work of art but for me personally no haking = deal killer.

Just my opinion here but one of the points to spending ridiculous amounts of money for a Swiss watch is precession. I love to set my watches to the atomic clock and check their accuracy. Maybe I'm a nerd but I don’t care.

I did know that PP watches did not hack which always bugged me that the best watch money can buy can't be set accurately. Doesn't bother me too much cause PP is out of my price range anyways.


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

If you enjoy precision and chronometry, you will love Zenith. On a hacking movement you get to set the time at zero and slowly watch it diverge away from it. On the El Primero you will set the watch at a point that is within a certain margin of zero, then consistently stick at or near that points for days, weeks and even months if regularly worn and properly regulated.

Take a look at the Elite as well. All 600 series calibers easily exceed chronometer specs and offer hacking.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

You can "manually hack" the El Primero by allowing the permanent seconds hand to reach 60 and then applying back pressure (as if setting the time backwards) on the crown. The movement will stop and on the gong (or whatever the atomic clock gives you), you release the crown, allowing the watch to run again.

I am not sure why the EP doesn't hack. Some say that on such a high speed movement, it would ruin the works. I don't believe that. My theory is the following. When the movement was brought out, it was definitely already a movement of superlatives: deadly accurate, fully integrated chronograph, bidirectionally winding full rotor, extra slim (for a chronograph - the manual ones of that time were only 1mm thinner and the next few automatic chronographs invented added a full mm or even more). All in all, there probably wasn't enough space left for a hacking lever between keyless works and balance so this was deemed one of the less important bits and dropped. It doesn't really bother me at all - especially when I remember that unlike the modern machines, this movement was probably designed entirely without the help of a computer.

Hartmut Richter


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## WTSP (May 6, 2012)

Hartmut Richter said:


> You can "manually hack" the El Primero by allowing the permanent seconds hand to reach 60 and then applying back pressure (as if setting the time backwards) on the crown. The movement will stop and on the gong (or whatever the atomic clock gives you), you release the crown, allowing the watch to run again.
> 
> I am not sure why the EP doesn't hack. Some say that on such a high speed movement, it would ruin the works. I don't believe that. My theory is the following. When the movement was brought out, it was definitely already a movement of superlatives: deadly accurate, fully integrated chronograph, bidirectionally winding full rotor, extra slim (for a chronograph - the manual ones of that time were only 1mm thinner and the next few automatic chronographs invented added a full mm or even more). All in all, there probably wasn't enough space left for a hacking lever between keyless works and balance so this was deemed one of the less important bits and dropped. It doesn't really bother me at all - especially when I remember that unlike the modern machines, this movement was probably designed entirely without the help of a computer.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Apparently the hacking feature wasn't really all that popular back in the sixties when the El Primero was developed. Also there was concern that stopping the balance wheel of a high beat rate escapement would cause problems due to the speed.
Le El Primero et le stop-seconde

The Ebel caliber 137 (Lemania 1340) which replaced the 134 (El Primero 400) doesn't hack either. It's a chronometer grade movement that is also deadly accurate. It seems that classic chronographs often just omitted this feature.


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## SOG (Jun 28, 2012)

I had a post earlier to show the accuracy of my EP, but I am on mobile, I will show you later, the only reason why I stopped the counting was my iPhone's timer somehow reset to zero. But it's one of the most accurate watch I ever own.
But as Hartmut mention, you can manually hack the EP.


Sent from my iPhone 7 using IPhone


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## Jim Jones (Apr 12, 2012)

Hartmut Richter said:


> You can "manually hack" the El Primero by allowing the permanent seconds hand to reach 60 and then applying back pressure (as if setting the time backwards) on the crown. The movement will stop and on the gong (or whatever the atomic clock gives you), you release the crown, allowing the watch to run again.
> 
> I am not sure why the EP doesn't hack. Some say that on such a high speed movement, it would ruin the works. I don't believe that. My theory is the following. When the movement was brought out, it was definitely already a movement of superlatives: deadly accurate, fully integrated chronograph, bidirectionally winding full rotor, extra slim (for a chronograph - the manual ones of that time were only 1mm thinner and the next few automatic chronographs invented added a full mm or even more). All in all, there probably wasn't enough space left for a hacking lever between keyless works and balance so this was deemed one of the less important bits and dropped. It doesn't really bother me at all - especially when I remember that unlike the modern machines, this movement was probably designed entirely without the help of a computer.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


 You are really twisting my arm here.

When I get time I think I'll go check them out at them out at the AD and see how it works. The only non hacking watch I own is an Orient and I just tried what you said so now I understand what you were talking about. It was kind of a PITA though maybe I just need to get used to it.
So thanks guys maybe not all hope is lost after all.


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## Jim Jones (Apr 12, 2012)

SOG said:


> I had a post earlier to show the accuracy of my EP, but I am on mobile, I will show you later, the only reason why I stopped the counting was my iPhone's timer somehow reset to zero. But it's one of the most accurate watch I ever own.
> But as Hartmut mention, you can manually hack the EP.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 7 using IPhone


 Definitely post a link I am interested


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## EnderW (Mar 16, 2015)

Jim Jones said:


> You are really twisting my arm here.
> 
> When I get time I think I'll go check them out at them out at the AD and see how it works. The only non hacking watch I own is an Orient and I just tried what you said so now I understand what you were talking about. It was kind of a PITA though maybe I just need to get used to it.
> So thanks guys maybe not all hope is lost after all.


I understand the desire for hacking movement. Still would recommend trying on ElPrimero in person to see if it sings to you or not.
One small thing to consider - ElPrimero has running seconds on a small subdial. Unlike a 3-hander, the chronographs subdial makes running seconds almost useless. I never try to set it to a second on any of my chronographs, even if they do hack. Since the central second hand belongs to chronograph and does not move most of the time, hacking on chrono is a non-issue for me. I would want to have hacking for any watches with central second hand though.


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## Solomente (Feb 24, 2015)

Jim Jones said:


> Just my opinion here but one of the points to spending ridiculous amounts of money for a Swiss watch is precession.


This is a pretty strange perspective to have since a $15 quartz is far more precise than a mechanical watch. The last thing I'm concerned about with a mechanical watch is precision, as long as it's not grossly off. You're spending ridiculous amounts of money on jewelry -- jewelry that supposedly also has a certain level of design, craftsmanship, and in some cases historical significance (real or perceived). If you want precision you should start by crossing mechanical watches off your list.


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## SOG (Jun 28, 2012)

Here is my previous post
My zenith striking 10th
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=1044137

Sent from my iPhone 7 using IPhone


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## fskywalker (Jul 14, 2014)

Solomente said:


> This is a pretty strange perspective to have since a $15 quartz is far more precise than a mechanical watch. The last thing I'm concerned about with a mechanical watch is precision, as long as it's not grossly off. You're spending ridiculous amounts of money on jewelry -- jewelry that supposedly also has a certain level of design, craftsmanship, and in some cases historical significance (real or perceived). If you want precision you should start by crossing mechanical watches off your list.


Fully agree!!!


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## bluedialer (Sep 16, 2011)

Hacking is a great feature, I take joy in being able to set the seconds in sync with the atomic clock. But yes you can do that back pressure thing, and even if it seems like it would be, it's not supposed to be harmful to the movement. I only have experience doing it on cheaper watches like Orients or Seiko 5s, but it doesn't seem to work if the mainspring is too fully wound. 

The main reason the El Primero chronograph doesn't hack is due to lack of space for the mechanism in the movement, apparently. Hacking should not hurt a 5Hz movement; Seiko has a long history manufacturing 5Hz movements and I'm not sure if they always did, but what they produce currently all hacks. Interestingly though, they do not seem to have a current 5Hz chronograph, if they ever even did...


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## fskywalker (Jul 14, 2014)

bluedialer said:


> Hacking is a great feature, I take joy in being able to set the seconds in sync with the atomic clock.


Not being able to fully stop the watch on Zenith El Primero movement is not an issue for me in terms of checking accuracy since I check it on my Iphone Twixt application, which takes a picture of the watch hands and then compares against the mobile phone time. No need to stop the second hand to do it that way. Can also check accuracy on my time grapher, so no need!


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## UKUSANL1 (Nov 17, 2014)

Wonderful thread and answers - thanks to everyone who posted!

I love the classic Zenith Chronomaster Moonphase (back before the 410-Z) and i had a similar worry. Thanks again everyone


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## UKUSANL1 (Nov 17, 2014)

Actually this might be a stupid question, and i apologize in advance if it is, but i presume the 410-Z does not hack either?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

No, it doesn't. The difference between the 410 and 410Z only related to details in the escapement and not to any functional advances like hacking.

Hartmut Richter


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## UKUSANL1 (Nov 17, 2014)

Hartmut Richter said:


> No, it doesn't. The difference between the 410 and 410Z only related to details in the escapement and not to any functional advances like hacking.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thank you very much Hartmut


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