# Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao (CANCELED) - Discussion Thread



## Crusader

_By JohnF and Crusader_

How to begin? Well, we guess the best way is to simply say what needs to be said, and then fill in some background.

We - i.e. "JohnF" and "Crusader" - have been kicking an idea around for quite some time, and have decided, despite all the turmoil in the world, despite all the worries we all have about the economy and our jobs, that it is time for some righteous WIS action here on Watchuseek. Something to brighten our spirits, to rekindle the flame, to help us fight the fight in our lonely vigil against the darkness. 

Herewith let us announce the brand new, spanking fresh and the one and only: A-11 project.

That's right: this is the official start of the A-11 project, to create the best, most accurate and kick-ass homage to "The Wristwatch That Won The War", the A-11, built by three US manufacturers (Elgin, Bulova and Waltham). No, to at least our great disappointment, none of these companies are around anymore to create us this homage (at least not in a meaningful way), so we put our heads together and came up with what we both think is the very best company to make this unique homage:

*Bill Yao of Mk II Watches*

You've read that correctly: Bill is on the project with us. He will incorporate our designs, work with them to create a viable homage to this watch that will both respect the original design and update it for modern-day use. He's the best man we can think of - and those of you who have his watches will, I think, tend to agree - and his involvement underscores how seriously we've been working on this behind the scenes. An A-11 homage needs a strong American Connection, and Bill Yao has worked hard to become the best in homaging military watches of the past :-!

This isn't a watch that will be ready for Christmas (not this year, anyway ;-)). Heck, this isn't a watch that's going to be ready for Easter! This is a watch that will take time to make because we're going to make it right. No stock cases, dials and hands are available for an A-11 homage, so we need to design and build the watch from scratch.

And it's going to be a Watchuseek watch: it's going to be offered, initially, in a limited edition with the Watchuseek logo and name, placed subtly, underscoring how this watch is, more than anything else, our watch. Not some mass-produced pseudo-"limited edition" that merely stamps a number on the back and says "how many did you want of this again?", but rather one that everyone here can start here with and accompany to the final delivery.

Here are a few pictures of an original 1944/45 Elgin A-11 which we think could serve as reference watch for the project (courtesy of Watchuseek member river_rat - thank you very much!) :





































Here are some of the basics that are proposed for the project:

*manufacturer: *Mk II Corp. (Bill Yao), USA
*approx. diameter: *38-40mm (upscaled from the original 32mm, a small watch); approx. height: ~11-13, mm depending on crystal
German-made *stainless steel case*, designed from the original casing and adapted to the larger size
*lug width: *20mm (the most versatile lug width), lugs drilled-through
*dial: *matte black with white numbers, no date
*hands: *white, lume to be determined (original had none!), central sweep second hand
*movement: *automatic ETA 2824-2, Rhodium plated, Incabloc shock protection, Elaborée grade, fully decorated including Geneva stripes on the rotor and signed MkII, metal spacer ring
*water resistance: *100m, no screw-down crown
*crystal: *double-domed sapphire, inside AR-coated
*strap: *period style canvas
*box: *really cool packaging (ok, a cardboard box that looks the original boxes used to store these watches)
*Watchuseek special edition:* Limited edition of 100; specially engraved caseback (similar to the original); dial (and possibly crown) with Watchuseek name or logo (subdued print)
*price range: *US$ 500 to 650
*deposit amount *(to be made to Bill Yao's separate Paypal account [email protected], and fully refundable until the design is finalized and sampling begins, or if we do not collect the required 100 pre-orders): US$ 275
*production time: *about one year from official launch, so we have a good chance to have the watch in hand by Christmas 2009.

Now, before we all get hot and bothered, now the logistics: Bill will build the watches, and at the end of the day he will decide what is feasible and what isn't.

We will need to collect 100 deposits before we can start signing up suppliers and begin the project in ernest. To maximize our chances of delivery in the 2009 we need to hit the 100 pre-order mark by December 31st 2008. The balance will be due before the watches enter final manufacturing ca. in May 2009.

That said, let the discussion begin! There is a separate thread on the A-11, on both the historical and on technical aspects of the watch, and we'll start up reservation procedures right now (with deposit, but fully refundable as noted above).

Let's get started!


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## Janne

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Jan: 2/100 and 50/100, thank you!
Only 97 to go!

Is a COSC certified movement a possibility?


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## Janne

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*

Is this thread also for the discussion of the design, or will it be done on a separate thread?


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## Crusader

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*



Janne said:


> Is this thread also for the discussion of the design, or will it be done on a separate thread?


As long as we don't know how solid the interest is in the homage watch, please use this thread also for design comments of the homage watch. If the volume rises, we can always separate the thread later on.


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## JohnF

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*

Hi -

Agree with Martin here, let's keep everything in this thread: we can separate out later.

Just a couple of words on the basic philosophy that Martin and I are taking here (if I may be so presumptuous to speak for Martin): we're interested in a homage to a watch that, while based on a fairly restrictive military specification of the time, did see a number of iterations (Elgin, Bulova and Waltham did their own versions of the watch). The important thing in designing this is to keep true to the _spirit_ of the design, as can be seen, basically, in the pictures that RiverRat was so kind to allow us to use.

JohnF


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## whifferdill

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Superb project guys - a real boost for WUS and a great chance to add something truly unique to a collection.:-!


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## lysanderxiii

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

I shall assume the dial will be the Elgin/Waltham pattern no the Bulova pattern, as railroad tracks are a bit over done these days.

Will the name be in black on black just like the originals?

If the knurling is to kept on the front, will the case be a real three piece case?

The crown will have to be huge to keep it in proportion to the case, over 8-1/4 mm.


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## JohnF

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Hi -

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

There will be no 1:1 scaling, as that would violate more than a few design principles. Such a large crown would make it unwearable (would dig into the wrist when worn!), but we'll work out something that makes sense.

JohnF


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## Janne

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

I see that the suggested movement is an automatic, nicely decorated.
I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
This movement is a nice one. 
Very exciting Project MKII !!

If no 2 will be free in the future, (prospective buyer might change his mind) I would like to have the first option on it!

Wow, having an important watch"hommage" from both sides of the conflict!


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## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
> This movement is a nice one.


It might be available. We will actually be making 200 cases as just 100 wouldn't be cost effective. The other 100 will be "Mk II" cases and I am seriously considering the idea of using an exhibition back.


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## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> I see that the suggested movement is an automatic, nicely decorated.
> I would like to be able to buy an engraved exhibition caseback too.
> This movement is a nice one.
> Very exciting Project MKII !!


Most of the preliminary discussion between Bill, John and myself was consumed in the quest for a handwound movement for this watch. But it's just not possible at the price stated. A handwound movement would introduce substantial risks in terms of the final proice, quality control and delivery date.

So we bit the bullet and settled on the decorated movements which Bill has coming in. They are an excellent offer in terms of cost, serviceability, availablilty and quality. And after all, the 2824 is really a handwound movement with an additional mechanism to keep the mainspring in the best state of charge ... ;-)

As for the feasability of an additional viewback (billed separately, presumably, as perhaps not everyone would want to have one) ... Bill?


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## city-dweller

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Crusader said:


> Most of the preliminary discussion between Bill, John and myself was consumed in the quest for a handwound movement for this watch. But it's just not possible at the price stated. A handwound movement would introduce substantial risks in terms of the final proice, quality control and delivery date.


so, the handwound is completely out of question then.
pity...


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## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



city-dweller said:


> so, the handwound is completely out of question then.
> pity...


As a serial feature, yes. :-(


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## Janne

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Not being too familiar with Bill Yao, a (stupid) question: Is Bill also a "movement mechanic"/watchmaker or "just" an designer and manufacturer?
Is there a place on the 'net where I can read about him more in detail?

Edit: I would prefer to have the WUS logo on the caseback, have mr Yao's logo in Black on Black on the dial and have a sterile crown


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## lysanderxiii

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Crusader said:


> And after all, the 2824 is really a handwound movement with an additional mechanism to keep the mainspring in the best state of charge ...


Actually, in terms of introduction date, the ETA 2804 is an ETA 2824 with the automatic winding equipment removed.

But, as a useful watch, an automatic is probably a better choice.


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## chansigril

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

professing my interest in #76 

there's no chance for a date eh :-(

well in for details and follow-ups ;-)


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## DanG

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Crusader said:


> As a serial feature, yes. :-(


At what level of interest does it become possible to have a handwound movement?
Let's be purist as much as possible, even at 32 mm, if need be.
Perhaps eta has a handwound option? Or, even get a bit more homage - perhaps DoD has historic production drawings that can be modernized and made in USA (jobs programs?) - not made in china - more purist expressing desire. If this is done properly, I bet the concept can spread much further than WUS and a made in USA watch could catch fever real quick - especially as a purist homage. I mean, so much stuff that appears homage, is made in china. Cost is not god - not for this type of purist/homage project.
OTOH, let's be realistic about cost projections - see weapons costs
http://spectrum.ieee.org/weapons


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## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



DanG said:


> At what level of interest does it become possible to have a handwound movement?
> Let's be purist as much as possible, even at 32 mm, if need be.
> Perhaps eta has a handwound option? Or, even get a bit more homage - perhaps DoD has historic production drawings that can be modernized and made in USA (jobs programs?) - not made in china - more purist expressing desire. If this is done properly, I bet the concept can spread much further than WUS and a made in USA watch could catch fever real quick - especially as a purist homage. I mean, so much stuff that appears homage, is made in china. Cost is not god - not for this type of purist/homage project.
> OTOH, let's be realistic about cost projections - see weapons costs
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/weapons


Hi Dan....unfortunately the supply of ETA movements is still very tight. The question of availability and final price of the movement make it untenable to base the project on a manual wind movement. A vintage movement is not on the table either because of service/parts issues down the road. JohnF, Crusader, and I examined all of the available options to put a manual wind movement into the watch but no matter which way we looked at it it was just not feasible.

The upside of using an automatic movement is that I can guarantee one of excellent quality and finish and at a price that will enable us to price the watch at a level that will be affordable. This will also allow us the freedom to invest the majority of the price into getting the case, dial, and hands made from the ground up so that we can get what we want not just what is available.

We will be using a German made case so the quality will be there. Finding/developing a US case manufacturer would pose too many execution risks and in all likelihood the timetable and costs would explode. I don't even think there are any case manufacturers of any scale left in the US.


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## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



chansigril said:


> professing my interest in #76
> 
> there's no chance for a date eh :-(
> 
> well in for details and follow-ups ;-)


As for the date option I think that is still doable. It could be done in addition to the non-date version. It will only affect the final price marginally. If you guys think its worth the extra cost it can be done. But the limit would have to be two dial options because assemblers usually have a 50 piece minimum per style.


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## David Woo

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Deposit just made for #53, thanks go out to Martin, John and Bill for a great idea.
A personal preference: can the case be blasted or brushed? I'm not crazy about polished finishes 
David W


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## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



city-dweller said:


> so, the handwound is completely out of question then.
> pity...


Actually the beauty of designing the watch around a 2824 is that a 2801 can be installed. The stem height, stem, and case screw points are all the same as that on the 2824. It just won't be a standard option for this project.


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## frank_be

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Hello everybody,

Would you guys mind if I would make a 3D of the whole watch? Including the dial of course?
It can be very usefull to do this, so we will be able to discuss particular designs-looks-size of the whole watch very easily without producing anything real.

Greetings,
Frank


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## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> Not being too familiar with Bill Yao, a (stupid) question: Is Bill also a "movement mechanic"/watchmaker or "just" an designer and manufacturer?
> Is there a place on the 'net where I can read about him more in detail?
> 
> Edit: I would prefer to have the WUS logo on the caseback, have mr Yao's logo in Black on Black on the dial and have a sterile crown


I am a "designer/watch tech/manufacturer". I wouldn't call myself a watchmaker but I know how to put them together and have been customizing watches since 2003. I started out working on Seikos and other Swiss watches and have worked my way into manufacturing my own brand of watches.Along the way I have had a lot of guidance from a number of kind collectors and watchmakers that have been kind of enough to share their time and knowledge. 

In a past life I was an investment banker.....that having been said I had nothing to do with the tech bubble or the sub-prime mortgage collapse o|
So my hands are clean :-d


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## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> Not being too familiar with Bill Yao, a (stupid) question: Is Bill also a "movement mechanic"/watchmaker or "just" an designer and manufacturer?
> Is there a place on the 'net where I can read about him more in detail?


http://www.mkiiwatches.com/

Where have you been, Janne? ;-) Pil-Mil is full of references to the top quality in design and execution of Bill's watches. 

Seriously I have owned one, I have seen and handled even more, and since I have been into watches on the internet, I have never heard a word of discontent from any owner about Bill's watches. :-!


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## JohnF

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Hi -

Frank, we'd be thrilled if you made up a 3D of the whole watch!

I've posted two very, very large photos of a watch with an A-11 case here and here.

JohnF


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## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Yao said:


> As for the date option I think that is still doable. It could be done in addition to the non-date version. It will only affect the final price marginally. If you guys think its worth the extra cost it can be done. But the limit would have to be two dial options because assemblers usually have a 50 piece minimum per style.


So what is everyone's opinion on a date option? I think there will not be only a date version; it's going to be either a mixture of date and no-date for the LE, or no-date only, IMHO.


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hello all, what a great initiative!

I have sent payment, look forward to news.

4 design suggestions:

1) I would really hope it possible to do a distinctively domed crystal, true to the original style. In my mind, the more domed, the better!

2) May I suggest a plexi dome? Again, true to the original, and easier to fix scratches with Poliwatch, should they appear. This will in my mind really be a huge plus concerning vintage style and looks.

3) Finally, another vintage look point. As I assume the use of tritium for the dial indices is impossible/prohibited..(can someone confirm?) - may I suggest the use of off-white, perhaps slightly yellowish/brown luminova to imitate the patina of older watches? I think the patinaed look combined with the domed crystal would make this one perfect.

4) I support the suggestion of making this one brushed. This should IMO not be a shiny polished watch.OTOH, if they were shiny when originally delivered to troops, so be it.

Again, my suggestions only come from concern that the watch will not look really vintage, for instance due to use of a flat sapphire crystal and screaming white luminova as seen on many other (tribute?) watches

Thanks again for this great initiative!

/Mads


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Sorry, forgot to add; I agree on the no-date, and the use of automatic movement.

/M



thedane said:


> Hello all, what a great initiative!
> 
> I have sent payment, look forward to news.
> 
> 4 design suggestions:
> 
> 1) I would really hope it possible to do a distinctively domed crystal, true to the original style. In my mind, the more domed, the better!
> 
> 2) May I suggest a plexi dome? Again, true to the original, and easier to fix scratches with Poliwatch, should they appear. This will in my mind really be a huge plus concerning vintage style and looks.
> 
> 3) Finally, another vintage look point. As I assume the use of tritium for the dial indices is impossible/prohibited..(can someone confirm?) - may I suggest the use of off-white, perhaps slightly yellowish/brown luminova to imitate the patina of older watches? I think the patinaed look combined with the domed crystal would make this one perfect.
> 
> 4) I support the suggestion of making this one brushed. This should IMO not be a shiny polished watch.OTOH, if they were shiny when originally delivered to troops, so be it.
> 
> Again, my suggestions only come from concern that the watch will not look really vintage, for instance due to use of a flat sapphire crystal and screaming white luminova as seen on many other (tribute?) watches
> 
> Thanks again for this great initiative!
> 
> /Mads


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



thedane said:


> 3) Finally, another vintage look point. As I assume the use of tritium for the dial indices is impossible/prohibited..(can someone confirm?) - may I suggest the use of off-white, perhaps slightly yellowish/brown luminova to imitate the patina of older watches? I think the patinaed look combined with the domed crystal would make this one perfect.


Please note that the original A-11 watches for the Air Force were not lumed. ;-)


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## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Briefly:

Domed crystal is planned. Sapphire, though, but double-domed and AR inside.

Good point on the lume. 

Were delivered to the troops chome on base metal with stainless back to keep cost down; there were some delivered silver case with stainless back (chrome was strategic material, silver not!)...

JohnF


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> Please note that the original A-11 watches for the Air Force were not lumed. ;-)


Martin, a good point, I did not realise this. 

I can easily live without lume, though - so by all means use regular paint if need be, as long as it looks patinaed :-!

Cheers, M


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



JohnF said:


> Domed crystal is planned. Sapphire, though, but double-domed and AR inside.


Sounds great John! For the uneducated (= me), can you just recap what a double dome is?

Basically, as long as it is distinctively domed, I am happy :-!

May I also ask, do you have options as to 'how domed' it will be? or does the option list read: Domed - Yes/No?

Thanks for your patience, you will no doubt all later refer to me as 'The one with all the questions' ;-)

/Mads


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



thedane said:


> Sounds great John! For the uneducated (= me), can you just recap what a double dome is?


A cheap "domed" crystal is domed only on the outside, while the side next to the dial is flat. This distorts the view, and adds to the reflectivity of the dial.

A "double domed" dial will be domed on both sides, so that the crystal will have more or less the same thickness throughout the curve.


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Thanks Martin, sound great!

Best, M


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## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Yes, it is me again, sorry.

2 suggestions:

1) Please no logos or writings on the dial that were not there on the original? I mention this because I would hate the original vintage look 'disturbed' by anything (But by all means do them all on the back of the watch)

2) Size wise, if we have a choice between 38-40 mm, I would vote for 40

/M


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## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

There was writing on the original, but it was done very, very subtly: gloss black on flat black. This is also planned, but we also firmly believe in understatement...

And we love questions. The more the merrier (as long as they're ones that haven't been answered before a thousand times!)... 

JohnF


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## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

A thought about the size:
I think we should go for maybe 39mm maximum, to go bigger will make the watch look like it is made for the visually challenged.

I do not think we should go for the Original size, in that case we might as well get an original/franken and have the movement and dial restored!

The numbers are quite large, the hands are all painted/lumed, no blued rim to visually decrease the size.
I arrived at this conclusion by "playing" with my computer. The original in 39mm diameter looks good. It does NOT look good in 42mm diameter!
Just my thoughts.
To minimise the amount of my boring posts I will tonight post a "wishlist" to Santa Yao!
Being a "wishlist" it is not set in concrete, as with the Laco LE I will accept the majority decision!


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## Paulo

I'm with you Janne, bigger than 39mm it will no longer "feel" as an A-11.

I'd personally prefer even smaller 37-38mm, but I have to be sensitive to the big watch trend (been there, but not nowadays).

BTW, I forgot to express before my joy for the fact that Bill Yao is taking care of this project, IMHO he's the perfect man for an USA military watch project.



Janne said:


> A thought about the size:
> I think we should go for maybe 39mm maximum, to go bigger will make the watch look like it is made for the visually challenged.
> 
> I do not think we should go for the Original size, in that case we might as well get an original/franken and have the movement and dial restored!
> 
> The numbers are quite large, the hands are all painted/lumed, no blued rim to visually decrease the size.
> I arrived at this conclusion by "playing" with my computer. The original in 39mm diameter looks good. It does NOT look good in 42mm diameter!
> Just my thoughts.
> To minimise the amount of my boring posts I will tonight post a "wishlist" to Santa Yao!
> Being a "wishlist" it is not set in concrete, as with the Laco LE I will accept the majority decision!


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## NWP627

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Would a screwed-in crown detract too much from the original look?
N


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## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> I'm with you Janne, bigger than 39mm it will no longer "feel" as an A-11.
> 
> I'd personally prefer even smaller 37-38mm, but I have to be sensitive to the big watch trend (been there, but not nowadays).
> 
> BTW, I forgot to express before my joy for the fact that Bill Yao is taking care of this project, IMHO he's the perfect man for an USA military watch project.


Thanks for your vote of confidence Paulo. 

Technically if one goes directly from 16 mm lugs to 20 mm lugs the watch case would end up scaling up to 40 mm from 32 mm. But that having been said it will come down to how it looks. Ideally we will have to look at it both ways and see. Watch design doesn't come down to a straight math problem ;-) My instinct tells me though that you guys could be right.


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## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



NWP627 said:


> Would a screwed-in crown detract too much from the original look?
> N


Not the look necessarily but perhaps the feel. Non-screw down crowns can be made water resistant up to 300 meters these days.


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## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Bill, would a Silver case and (Silver (coin edge) bezel raise the cost much?
Keeping the caseback and crown in Stainless steel


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## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> Bill, would a Silver case and (Silver (coin edge) bezel raise the cost much?
> Keeping the caseback and crown in Stainless steel


From my personal experience with silver cases it gets too tainted, and the coined bezel will be a pain to clean...


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## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

You can always sell that Cricket to me, Paulo! ;-)

Jan's "A-11-MKII LE" Wishlist:

Size: 39-40mm, lug to lug 20mm
Practical (not to scale) crown
Engraved Full caseback, screwed
Engraved Crystal caseback, screwed
WUS logo also on casebacks
Writing on dial Black on Black
Screw down crown
Normal spring bars (not fixed)
Luminous paint used, "aged" look
Blued screws in the movement (unsure it this is standard on the Elaboree)

(Silver case/bezel? A bit of tarnish is authentic!)

As I said, I will accept the majority decision

Question: Will the amount of work Master Yao is doing make this watch to qualify for a "Made in USA" print on the dial?


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## DanG

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Yao said:


> The question of availability and final price of the movement make it untenable to base the project on a manual wind movement.


Bill / Team:
If I understand your previous responses regarding manual movement, the eta2801 is a drop in replacement to the eta automatic that you are sourcing on this project?

I realize I am pressing against the wall on this, but I am merely asking to find out how far I may press. If I source an eta2801, can I supply it to Bill for fitting into the A-11 that I would commit to purchase? I can see all sort of reason against this customization, but... it might be able to be worked? - I am asking.

I really do not have much use for automatic movements, and especially for an homage piece for me. Is anyone else as hardcore against automatics as I am expressing? I like the automatic movements I own, but I prefer the manual wind movement, cal321, val235, sm30 - I think I would love to own a val725 - does anyone see these for sale? price?


----------



## Janne

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

If it is a drop in replacement maybe you can do it locally?
Is the 2801 hacking?


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> If it is a drop in replacement maybe you can do it locally?
> Is the 2801 hacking?


The 2801 comes in a hacking and a non-hacking variant.

Having the watch locally modified from 2824 to 2801 is certainly an option, but I am not sure to what extent Bill would be willing to mount a customer-supplied movement, what with warranty issues etc.


----------



## city-dweller

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



DanG said:


> I really do not have much use for automatic movements, and especially for an homage piece for me. Is anyone else as hardcore against automatics as I am expressing?


Generally, nothing against an automatic, where appropriate.

But an homage watch with an automatic sounds off-key to me.

Additionally, I would vote for a scaled (larger) crown.
Never had problems with large crowns and cannot see why it should be
such a big problem as some report.
The proportionally scaled crown would just make the watch look much
more similar to the original.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

Crown: I think we will be limited to what is available, not sure if we can get a custom made for this already very low price.

I have been playing with the magnification (again).
What are the thoughts about the number of "flutes" on the coin edges?
The reason I ask is that with the same number of flutes as on the original watch, if magnified to approx 39-40mm the flutes look quite large. Adding 3 flutes or so makes the bezel neater.

Another thing: can an "ordinary" watchmaker remove the screwed caseback if it has the coin edge, or is a special tool needed?


----------



## Shogan191

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I hope you can keep it close to the look and feel of the pic that was first posted. I'd also love to see it a mechanical hand wind and center seconds.


----------



## camfam

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Here's my 2 cents:

2801 movement. ETA movements are not in tight supply, just overpriced. A 2801 should be available from any number of movement dealers for less than $120. There are other very viable swiss-made options, sellita, and at least one other. Yeah a 2824 is easy for Bill because it is his standard movement, and if he's trying to sell another 100, then hand-wind is a tough sell. But for this group hand-wind is I think a much better fit. I guess the question is, is this a WUS project or a MKII project?

A decorated movement is unnecessary in a tool watch. Ditto for display back. Also, a 28XX is nothing great to look at, even with some tarting up.

The coin edge is critical. If you don't keep the coin edge, why not just buy one of the many MK11 hommages?

38mm and 18mm lugs. Again, bigger is more saleable, but is this for the forum or for trying to sell in the general market?

Cam


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

It's both: while Bill has contemplated an A-11 homage before, we (Martin and I) are the ones who have been behind this. Hence: this is a WUS project, much as the Laco project was a WUS project.

There's a curious thing about market prices under monopoly conditions (and ETA is a legal monopoly in Switzerland): ETA movements are in tight supply because they aren't available at a "fair" price, and alternative movements - Seilitta - aren't any better: you can find a few movements available from any number of dealers, but _not_ 100: that is the problem with the 280x.

While we all would like the perfect solution, it's just not gonna happen. The decoration of the movement is a function of the level of quality of the movement here, not a conscious decision to purty things up unnecessarily.

The coin edge is indeed critical and will be an integral part. What you don't have with any of the existing MK II models is the case - three piece case with coin edge top and bottom - and the dial: the dial will be the major piece of work.

Scaling from the original, 20mm lugs work better (direct scaling takes you to 19mm, which is not a path we are willing to take), but I think a consensus is slowly emerging that a 40mm or larger watch is out of the question.

JohnF

PS: The first 100 will be strictly forum: beyond that, Bill may offer any number of options. Depends on demand: buy early and often!


----------



## DanG

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



camfam said:


> 2801 movement. ETA movements are not in tight supply, just overpriced. A 2801 should be available from any number of movement dealers for less than $120.


Since it seems you are knowledgeable about the whereabouts of supply, perhaps the Team could be open to your assistance to find small supply of some 2801 movements that would satisfy the warranty issue and that could be offered as a project option for the few purists in our midst? - I would hardly call myself a purist - just a luddite - but I have already voiced my desire for 2801 and holding out for that eventual development in this project. Wonderful exciting project, by the way - Crusader / JohnF / Bill - thank you very much.


----------



## NWP627

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Jan's "A-11-MKII LE" Wishlist:

Size: 39-40mm, lug to lug 20mm
Practical (not to scale) crown
Engraved Full caseback, screwed
Engraved Crystal caseback, screwed
WUS logo also on casebacks
Writing on dial Black on Black
Screw down crown
Normal spring bars (not fixed)
Luminous paint used, "aged" look
Blued screws in the movement (unsure it this is standard on the Elaboree)

(Silver case/bezel? A bit of tarnish is authentic!)

As I said, I will accept the majority decision

_Jan's "A-11-MKII LE" Wishlist is my wishlist as well and I too will accept the majority decision.
N_


----------



## Shogan191

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my post. It is really a great project and I'm sure will be well supported. Please forgive my noobiness but how much would a mechanical hand wind add to the expense of the watch. 
Automatic ETA= 
Hand Wind ETA= 
I just don't have an idea of what the difference would be. I do know that if it were going to be a hand wind I would have already sent my reservation amount but I'm just not wanting any more automatics now. The watch you're describing in a hand wind is like a hidden treasure, everyone wants it but no one can find it.b-)


----------



## Darkman

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Just made a deposit (for #8 if available).
Sounds like a great idea - congrats, from one "project" to another.

Chris "BaliHaiProject.com" Cihon


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

We are aware of the handwind versus automatic problem, and we could not find a way to procure 100 new handwind movements. The choice was (and is) between an auto project, and no project.

So we decided to put the project to the members with the auto movement, for which the timeline and the price are reasonably predictable.

A handwound LE is not offered because we are daft, or insensitive to the fact that a handwound movement would fit this homage watch better, but for lack of a technically and commercially sound option.


----------



## camfam

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> We are aware of the handwind versus automatic problem, and we could not find a way to procure 100 new handwind movements. The choice was (and is) between an auto project, and no project.
> 
> So we decided to put the project to the members with the auto movement, for which the timeline and the price are reasonably predictable.
> 
> A handwound LE is not offered because we are daft, or insensitive to the fact that a handwound movement would fit this homage watch better, but for lack of a technically and commercially sound option.


I respect the fact that Bill Yao can't find a supplier for a manual wind movement. This is his project and I agree that we have to live with the reality of his operation.

Cam


----------



## Peter Atwood

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Wow, looks like yet another terrific MKII product. I might be in if the watch is 40mm and if the lume is decent.

About the lume...I would prefer to see C3 quality rather than the usual C1 grade that Bill uses. Could be a custom mix to give it that aged look though. Would the entire dial be lumed or just the arabics? Personally I'd like to see all the minute markers done too.

One more thing...what about the dials with railroad tracks? Those are my absolute favorites from that era and one that despite what one poster claimed earlier are practically non existent today. It seems like every maker produced them in WWII yet you cannot find even one decent quality piece in a modern size. The one Glycine makes is very subpar and beyond that no one is making a truly accurate homage to that style. I've tried to talk Stowa into making one since they definitely produced one in the 1940's, their field watch. But Omega made them, IWC, Record, the list is long.


----------



## jbaca

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I want one I cant deposit til 12/15

:-!:-!:-!


----------



## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Janne said:


> Crown: I think we will be limited to what is available, not sure if we can get a custom made for this already very low price.
> 
> I have been playing with the magnification (again).
> What are the thoughts about the number of "flutes" on the coin edges?
> The reason I ask is that with the same number of flutes as on the original watch, if magnified to approx 39-40mm the flutes look quite large. Adding 3 flutes or so makes the bezel neater.
> 
> Another thing: can an "ordinary" watchmaker remove the screwed caseback if it has the coin edge, or is a special tool needed?


The case back being fluted may be an issue. There are more specialized case back removal/opening tools that rely just on friction but I don't know if they are in wide use.

The other option is to use the other A-11 style case back shown here...


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



camfam said:


> I respect the fact that Bill Yao can't find a supplier for a manual wind movement. This is his project and I agree that we have to live with the reality of his operation.
> 
> Cam


This is a WUS project. I am essentially a consultant. I am here to provide technical guidance, suggestions to work around problems, execute the manufacturing phase and my participation makes this project economically feasible. The reason I am willing to assume this kind of project is because I also believe in it. I have always been a fan of the A-11.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Peter Atwood said:


> Wow, looks like yet another terrific MKII product. I might be in if the watch is 40mm and if the lume is decent.
> 
> About the lume...I would prefer to see C3 quality rather than the usual C1 grade that Bill uses. Could be a custom mix to give it that aged look though. Would the entire dial be lumed or just the arabics? Personally I'd like to see all the minute markers done too.
> 
> One more thing...what about the dials with railroad tracks? Those are my absolute favorites from that era and one that despite what one poster claimed earlier are practically non existent today. It seems like every maker produced them in WWII yet you cannot find even one decent quality piece in a modern size. The one Glycine makes is very subpar and beyond that no one is making a truly accurate homage to that style. I've tried to talk Stowa into making one since they definitely produced one in the 1940's, their field watch. But Omega made them, IWC, Record, the list is long.


The difference between C3 vs C1 is actually just the color. The quality level is the same. The color or lack thereof actually affect the performance of the material. The closer you get to its "natural" color the better it performs.

I am throwing out the option of say a display back because there will be also a Mk II version of this watch. It will use the WUS designed hands and case. If there is a strong consensus on features that may not end up on the WUS LE we can do them through the Mk II version. For example if you guys want the WUS LE to have no lume at all we can do the Mk II version with lume.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

That caseback looks perfectly good enough, nice and easy to remove with "normal" tools. Perfect!

Our Posts got crossed in cyberspace, so 1 more query:
If the display caseback is no longer part of the project:
The ETA movement, is it only the Elaboree grade that is COSC certified or can a "lesser" grade be COSC certified?
I rather have a lesser grade but COSC, now if the movement is fully covered.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> That caseback looks perfectly good enough, nice and easy to remove with "normal" tools. Perfect!
> 
> Our Posts got crossed in cyberspace, so 1 more query:
> If the display caseback is no longer part of the project:
> The ETA movement, is it only the Elaboree grade that is COSC certified or can a "lesser" grade be COSC certified?
> I rather have a lesser grade but COSC, now if the movement is fully covered.


The display back won't be used on the WUS LE but was something I was considering for the Mk II version of the A-11 homage. There will be two vesions of the A-11 homage the Mk II version and the WUS LE version. the case body will be the same for both and designed by this forum. As far as I remember the WUS LE was always going to have a solid back.

Actually a lesser grade, as offered by ETA, can't be certified through them. I suppose that any company can submit to the COSC but its beyond the scope of my abilities at this time. The COSC version of the 2824 is its own grade. The TOP grade is the essentially a non-COSC certified movement and then the Elabore grade is just below that.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Thank you for that answer!
I have tried to check out the different grades of the movements on the ETA site, but it is in French and my French is somewhat limited!

This is a very exciting project!
The main difference as I see it (compared to the B-uhr LE) is that we now have a "watch pro" to guide us through the difficulties! :-!


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> Thank you for that answer!
> I have tried to check out the different grades of the movements on the ETA site, but it is in French and my French is somewhat limited!
> 
> This is a very exciting project!
> The main difference as I see it (compared to the B-uhr LE) is that we now have a "watch pro" to guide us through the difficulties! :-!


I could be wrong but another one is that you guys will be driving the case design as well.


----------



## Narruc

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I'm sorry if I missed this posted earlier, but where is this watch going to be assembled?
Thanks


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Narruc said:


> I'm sorry if I missed this posted earlier, but where is this watch going to be assembled?
> Thanks


Most of them will be done in Switzerland given the size of the LE. If there are custom versions they will be assembled in the USA.


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Yao said:


> I could be wrong but another one is that you guys will be driving the case design as well.


In that case, here go my views! :-d


General rule: KISS ;-)
No railwroad tracks, dial looks too busy IMO.
No lume, the A-11 had no lume at a time luming it was possible, so IMO it will be a major detraction from the original.
Fluted back looks much better and nowadays, with those case opener balls selling for less than $5, there's no argument of lack of tools.
ETA 2824 chronometer is available in just one finishing version, so it's a waste of time debating that.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> Fluted back looks much better and nowadays, with those case opener balls selling for less than $5, there's no argument of lack of tools.


It will be okay at first. Just think about the watch several years down the line when there is a lot of gunk built up between the case and back. Up to you guys. :think:


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Yao said:


> It will be okay at first. Just think about the watch several years down the line when there is a lot of gunk built up between the case and back. Up to you guys. :think:


 that's food for thought indeed Bill :think:

Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, with that other caseback style would the caseback be slimmer and, consequently, the watch too?


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Okay... so my deposit has been paid as previously stated.

After reading all of the posts and since I'm a paying part of the project, I figure I'm allowed to weigh in on what I'd like to see.

40mm Case

A sizable crown (not overly huge)

I really want a display case back, even if its produced as an option I can purchase along with the watch, so long as it's engraved with the same serial number as the solid case back that ships with the watch. I would gladly pay a premium for this to be available at the time of delivery.

No date

Vintage looking dial

i can only assume we'll be going with an OD green canvas band?

On a side note I'm super excited. I can't wait until next year! :-!


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> that's food for thought indeed Bill :think:
> 
> Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, with that other caseback style would the caseback be slimmer and, consequently, the watch too?


Actually I don't know I guess that's for you guys to decide. My gut feeling though is that you probably will want a thicker case back because of the size of the crown.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> In that case, here go my views! :-d
> 
> 
> General rule: KISS ;-)
> ETA 2824 chronometer is available in just one finishing version, so it's a waste of time debating that.


KISS = ? 
In the initial specification (see post number 1) it was stated: Elaboree grade. 
Not chronometer. That was my wish. I just did not know what movement grade was chrono. certified. Now I know. Top grade.
Which we will not get. but it is OK with me, as the caseback will be solid.
It will also kep the cost within the limits.


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

The back should match the front, the decagonal case back was used only on the two piece case (All Bulovas and some of the Elgins, and Walthams.)

The three piece case was actually a front loader, the back came off only for ease of regulation and removal of the case retaining screws, the front came off for removal of the actual movement assembly.

As for removing a coin edge case back (and front) they can be easily removed with existing tools (see Figure 1, the 40 mm one should suffice).

I think the case should be made in the same manner as the original, to include the original style of crown gasket. (see Figure 2)









Figure 1









Figure 2​


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> KISS = ?
> In the initial specification (see post number 1) it was stated: Elaboree grade.
> Not chronometer. That was my wish. I just did not know what movement grade was chrono. certified. Now I know. Top grade.
> Which we will not get. but it is OK with me, as the caseback will be solid.
> It will also kep the cost within the limits.


KISS principle ;-)

Sorry, thought I read chronometer somewhere, but the reasoning is the same. To get some vital components of better quality (main spring, balance, anti-shock, etc.) you must get a certain level of finishing, there's no room for tuning/special requests with ETA.

I forgot to add that I fail to see the point in making the watch look vintage. I prefer to see how it looked new and let it age in my watch case.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Yao said:


> The case back being fluted may be an issue. There are more specialized case back removal/opening tools that rely just on friction but I don't know if they are in wide use.
> 
> The other option is to use the other A-11 style case back shown here...


Would it be an option to have the coin-edge on the outside edge of the caseback, and have six or eight holes (not notches) set somewhat inward, like IWC do on some of their watches? That way the edge of the caseback is not interrupted by the traditional notches (that's why IWC do it), and in our case could be in the form of the coin-edge?

See e.g. here: http://watches.infoniac.com/index.php?page=articles&catid=4&id=2


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> I forgot to add that I fail to see the point in making the watch look vintage. I prefer to see how it looked new and let it age in my watch case.


Same here. If we go the lume way at all (as the majority of A-11s were unlumed, and it was especially the Navy/USMC varaint which was lumed), please note that anything different from C1 and C3 (white and pale green, respectively) will necessarily mean a significant degradadtion of luminosity.


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*

That's the ticket Martin. :-!


----------



## Yao

*Re: Proposal for a Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch In Collaboration With Bill Yao*



Paulo said:


> That's the ticket Martin. :-!


That would work as well. :-!


----------



## Topher1556

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> Same here. If we go the lume way at all (as the majority of A-11s were unlumed, and it was especially the Navy/USMC varaint which was lumed), please note that anything different from C1 and C3 (white and pale green, respectively) will necessarily mean a significant degradadtion of luminosity.


I must say "bravo" for a great collaboration. I just wanted to comment after reading about lume vs. no lume vs new vs patina look.

If you really wanted to get a look of patina, but not hinder the luminosity, how about this: a sapphire with a slight brown tint to it. There is a sapphire crystal currently available for Seiko cases to fit the ubiquitous SKX007 and it gives a brand new dial a patina look...but won't hurt the glow of the lume (as the tint is in the glass, not the actual paint).


----------



## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> I forgot to add that I fail to see the point in making the watch look vintage. I prefer to see how it looked new and let it age in my watch case.


My preference for the aged look was under the assumption that the dial would be lumed. If we end up luming it with clear white or green Luminova, my point is that your dial will not look aged at all, even when it is! Luminova does not fade in that beautiful way that tritium does, that is why a 10 year old watch with tritium used for lume looks much better (or at least more vintage) than a 10 year old watch with Luminova used for lume. The luminova watch will look like a 10 year old watch case with 1 day old indices! (admitted, the rest of the dial can fade)

If the only luming option is bright, white or green luminova, I would prefer a non lumed watch (Which I guess is true to the original also)

BTW: What material is used for an unlumed watch? I assume this material will fade with age? If so, I am happy that the watch will fade with age like myself 

Rgds, Mads


----------



## bfgreen

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

This is a great project! I'd be more than happy to offer up my design/illustration skills if needed? I know you have a great watch to model it after, but if you need any assistance with mock-ups please let me know.

This is one I will be keeping a close watch on - no pun intended


----------



## Don Aldo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I'm a little 'scared' (in a figurative sense) and I'll let you in on my fears.

FEAR #1:

Each A-11 variant, although similar to others, has its own 'balance' in terms of design and proportions. My personal favourite is the Elgin A-11 with waterproof case that you don't see too often on the interweb (it's a two piece case with a stepped bezel). My 'fear' is that if you start to marry A-11 design elements together (i.e. a Bulova style case with an Elgin style dial) you can create a 'mutt' that's not at all in keeping with the 1940s watch design aesthetic. Assuage my fear: pick one A-11 variant, and one variant only, and stick with it.

FEAR #2:

Don't touch that crown. Itsy bitsy ~ 30mm case and a proportionately humongous crown - that's a 1940s US mil watch aesthetic that should only be tampered with at your own peril. Keep the proportions of that crown.

FEAR #3:

The case lines: something you can only really see in real life and that photos do a poor job of representing. A 1940s watch has very specific lines that seem almost 'cartoonish' to us in 2008. My fear is that cold angular precision might be used to create a case with lines that look like they were milled in 2008 in the German Black Forest: make those case lines flow and capture that 1940s US watch manufacturer aesthetic. Don't take liberties, go with the flow of the mid century lines.

FEAR #4:

You'll choose to use a knurled bezel. That's more 'pet peeve' than 'fear' but do keep in mind that a knurled bezel was used for very functional reasons (i.e. to be able to screw off the bezel). Since we are producing this watch in 2008 and since water-resistance does matter to us, I highly doubt Mr. Yao will want to machine a case that has a knurled caseback and a knurled bezel that can be removed with minimally dry fingers. Unless your knurled bezel is _functional_, please choose an A-11 variant that has a two piece 'waterproof' case. Knurling for knurling's sake is just plain wrong (and if I were Supreme Intergalactic Commander, it would be _criminal_).


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

all great points IMO.


----------



## city-dweller

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

agree on all four points


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Agreed.
Any chance we can gather photos of the various versions and make a poll where all those that paid reservation can vote to check preferences?


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I think that would be a great idea... obviously there is going to be a bit of feasibility that will need to go into whatever decisions get made. Maybe we are a bit too early in the process for a list like this (still gathering options/feasibilities), but I for one would like to see something like this (for deposit holders only) as soon as its deemed fit. I think it would help everyone, those who have made deposits/those who are still on the fence to start to see a clear direction for the project. I think it'd help it to feel more real since we are still so far from seeing the finished product....


----------



## Shogan191

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Well, I'm excited to see how this turns out. I'm going to hold off and hope I find a manual wind in a watch that looks close to the A11 starting this thread. It should be fun watching how this one takes shape.


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Well, let's get started on the dial. I've acquired a NOS Elgin dial in white:










Inverting this gets us this:










and I've added edge effects to give us some additional feel for the layout of the font:










Now there are a number of things that I can see right off the bat:

First of all, the Elgin name will disappear, to be replaced with a gloss black WUS and WUS logo.

Second of all, there are two distinct fonts. The first is the inner ring of 1-12, the second is the outer ring of 10-60 at 1ß-second intervals. This outer ring numbering should be, of course, white in the new version.

Third, scaling this directly doesn't work. The 1-12 numbers must be made thinner, and the hour and minute markings must be made thinner to successfully transition to the larger size.

Fourth, the differential between the hour and minute markings, if both are made thinner, must be increased slightly to maintain distinction between the two.

I really, really wish I had more time to properly work on these photos, but that will happen (for me) first on Monday. I wanted to get these up for discussion and constructive criticism.

JohnF

PS: will do some more processing tomorrow...


----------



## Billy

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

The NOS dial is not original - a total fake. I actually purchased an identical dial myself, before discovering the truth. Thankfully it wasn't an expensive lesson. The dial will obviously still work for your intended purposes (close enough to the real thing). The font isn't correct on these fake dials, nor should the dial have ELGIN printed on the dial.

Kind Regards,

Billy


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Just did a second look: seems that you're right. There is no difference on Riverrat's A-11 between the two fonts.

Damn. Oh well: if it fooled you as well, then I don't feel so bad...

JohnF


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Don Aldo said:


> I'm a little 'scared' (in a figurative sense) and I'll let you in on my fears.
> 
> FEAR #1:
> 
> Each A-11 variant, although similar to others, has its own 'balance' in terms of design and proportions. My personal favourite is the Elgin A-11 with waterproof case that you don't see too often on the interweb (it's a two piece case with a stepped bezel). My 'fear' is that if you start to marry A-11 design elements together (i.e. a Bulova style case with an Elgin style dial) you can create a 'mutt' that's not at all in keeping with the 1940s watch design aesthetic. Assuage my fear: pick one A-11 variant, and one variant only, and stick with it.
> 
> FEAR #2:
> 
> Don't touch that crown. Itsy bitsy ~ 30mm case and a proportionately humongous crown - that's a 1940s US mil watch aesthetic that should only be tampered with at your own peril. Keep the proportions of that crown.
> 
> FEAR #3:
> 
> The case lines: something you can only really see in real life and that photos do a poor job of representing. A 1940s watch has very specific lines that seem almost 'cartoonish' to us in 2008. My fear is that cold angular precision might be used to create a case with lines that look like they were milled in 2008 in the German Black Forest: make those case lines flow and capture that 1940s US watch manufacturer aesthetic. Don't take liberties, go with the flow of the mid century lines.
> 
> FEAR #4:
> 
> You'll choose to use a knurled bezel. That's more 'pet peeve' than 'fear' but do keep in mind that a knurled bezel was used for very functional reasons (i.e. to be able to screw off the bezel). Since we are producing this watch in 2008 and since water-resistance does matter to us, I highly doubt Mr. Yao will want to machine a case that has a knurled caseback and a knurled bezel that can be removed with minimally dry fingers. Unless your knurled bezel is _functional_, please choose an A-11 variant that has a two piece 'waterproof' case. Knurling for knurling's sake is just plain wrong (and if I were Supreme Intergalactic Commander, it would be _criminal_).


Are you interested in an A-11 homage for yourself, Don Aldo?

My understanding of the project is that we want to produce a modern watch with vintage styling, not re-produce the original watch which is in fact quite available, if someone is keen on wearing a 32mm watch with no WR and high maintenance costs.

The reason I am asking is that you appear to posit in your post that you feel that we on Pil-Mil are incapable of producing a satisfying homage watch. Coming from a person interested in the homage watch for himself this would obviously be different from one not interested in acquiring the homage watch in the first place. ;-)

If you have a look at our Special Pilot's and Military Watch Projects (Laco) subforum, you will find that extreme care and desire for authenticity has gone in the scaled-down Laco B-Uhr Baumuster B - including the fact, well documented in that forum, that a true (as in constant) scaling of the original did not produce as "authentic" a result as the modified scaling eventually employed in that particular watch.

To be honest, I would really like to know what causes the "fears" you have listed - for the time being, I think that the collective input of the forum members so recently demonstrated and borne out in the authenticity of the Laco-Project is, in fact, being slighted by your "fears" being voiced so early in the design process. Frankly, it sounds very much like a solid vote of no-confidence in the project, or the members' ability to contribute to the design process.

Having said that, may I encourage you to post pictures (like the waterproof two-part Elgin case mentioned in your post)? I am sure that this would help the design process along.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Let us show Don Aldo what we can and will do! He has not understood (yet) the power of our combined expertise!

I personally do not _expect_ _and demand_ a 100% true (+resized) Replica, I am very happy with less!
But I do know we will get very close to the 100%! Just like the Laco LE !!

:-!


----------



## Don Aldo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> The reason I am asking is that you appear to posit in your post that you feel that we on Pil-Mil are incapable of producing a satisfying homage watch.


Okay, where do I mention this? I'm a big fan of Mr. Yao's work and since this is the thread that was created for members to add input - that's what I've done. It may not be the input that you like, but it's my input.



Crusader said:


> Coming from a person interested in the homage watch for himself this would obviously be different from one not interested in acquiring the homage watch in the first place. ;-)


Does that mean that the design can't be fleshed out, bandied about and a constructive opinion from a military watch collector thrown in? If you believe I expressed a _destructive _opinion meant to undermine the project: let me know and I'll forever give this forum its peace and never post here again - and you can go ahead ban my membership just to make sure. Let me add that being a big fan of mid 20th century military horology and Mr. Yao, a well put together homage would win my hard earned dollars.



Crusader said:


> To be honest, I would really like to know what causes the "fears" you have listed - for the time being, I think that the collective input of the forum members so recently demonstrated and borne out in the authenticity of the Laco-Project is, in fact, being slighted by your "fears" being voiced so early in the design process. Frankly, it sounds very much like a solid vote of no-confidence in the project, or the members' ability to contribute to the design process.


How exactly am I slighting the Laco Project? In my post I only talked about the A-11 project. Besides that, I wouldn't bother giving a 'vote of no confidence' for any project including the A-11 - such trolling pursuits aren't worth my time and like I said, if you think I am let me know and I'll go away and I won't 'let the door hit me on my way out'.

Let me qualify where my "fears" come from (a term used in a tongue in cheek manner but one is certainly open to interpret it in whichever way he so chooses): I'm an unabashed perfectionist and fan of military horology. I started collecting US mil watches and 'moved on' to other pieces but I've always been a big fan of the US mil watch aesthetic from the second world war. If I could steal away from military watch collecting with only a war-time Hamilton (with the venerable 987S movement) _and_ a Hamilton Model 23, I'd be a gleeful guy.



Crusader said:


> Having said that, may I encourage you to post pictures (like the waterproof two-part Elgin case mentioned in your post)? I am sure that this would help the design process along.


It was the first_ real _mil watch I'd ever owned and one of the few regretful sales I've ever made. I took pics of this watch before I ever owned a digital camera, I've lost the original pics but luckily I posted a pic of it on MWR at some point and by searching through their archive DVD here's a frontal pic of my 'old' A-11:










I admit that someone like me posting over here can be a pain in the rear end if a 'voice of dissent' is seen as a vote of 'non-confidence'. I mainly post on MWR where I've sometimes been such a 'voice of dissent' without having to bear the brunt of a moderator's accusation of bordering on trolling behaviour. It's become quite clear as I'm nearing the end of this reply that you probably don't want to hear my opinion which is perfectly valid; I'll just stay on my end of the playground and let the others play however and whatever they want.


----------



## James Haury

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Has any thought been given to Russian handwound movements?I think they are at least worth investigating.


----------



## daviswalker

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Don, FWIW I took your suggestions to be constructive. Presenting them as "fears" (the quotation marks are yours, not mine) made me believe you were pointing out things that are important, but easy to get wrong. I think you have added positively to the discussion by pointing these out.

My $.02.

Dave


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Here are several images of the various types of cases and their differences:

Dial:









Elgin crown

















Bulova Crown

















Comparison between the Keystone and Star case (Elgin used both, I have only seen Walthams with the Star)


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Don Aldo! Please stay with us and give us (the group incl. you) your opinions. The more-the merrier!
Also, since you have the neccesary interest and knowledge, your opinions might be very, very valuable!
Personally, I can/will have opinions, but not being familiar in person with A-11 watches (as opposed to the B-uhren), my opinions are just opinions, if you understand what I mean!


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

More comparison shots of Keystone and Star watch cases (these are the limited waterproof cases):

Keystone case:

























































Star case:


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Here are two of the types of two piece cases:

Bulova case:

































Waltham case:


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

And the most important difference, the hands. You will note that the Elgin hands are a compound curve, and the Waltham are two simple arcs.

These are the Elgin hands:


















These are the Waltham hands:


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Don Aldo said:


> I'm a little 'scared' (in a figurative sense) and I'll let you in on my fears.
> 
> FEAR #1:
> 
> Each A-11 variant, although similar to others, has its own 'balance' in terms of design and proportions. My personal favourite is the Elgin A-11 with waterproof case that you don't see too often on the interweb (it's a two piece case with a stepped bezel). My 'fear' is that if you start to marry A-11 design elements together (i.e. a Bulova style case with an Elgin style dial) you can create a 'mutt' that's not at all in keeping with the 1940s watch design aesthetic. Assuage my fear: pick one A-11 variant, and one variant only, and stick with it.
> 
> FEAR #2:
> 
> Don't touch that crown. Itsy bitsy ~ 30mm case and a proportionately humongous crown - that's a 1940s US mil watch aesthetic that should only be tampered with at your own peril. Keep the proportions of that crown.
> 
> FEAR #3:
> 
> The case lines: something you can only really see in real life and that photos do a poor job of representing. A 1940s watch has very specific lines that seem almost 'cartoonish' to us in 2008. My fear is that cold angular precision might be used to create a case with lines that look like they were milled in 2008 in the German Black Forest: make those case lines flow and capture that 1940s US watch manufacturer aesthetic. Don't take liberties, go with the flow of the mid century lines.
> 
> FEAR #4:
> 
> You'll choose to use a knurled bezel. That's more 'pet peeve' than 'fear' but do keep in mind that a knurled bezel was used for very functional reasons (i.e. to be able to screw off the bezel). Since we are producing this watch in 2008 and since water-resistance does matter to us, I highly doubt Mr. Yao will want to machine a case that has a knurled caseback and a knurled bezel that can be removed with minimally dry fingers. Unless your knurled bezel is _functional_, please choose an A-11 variant that has a two piece 'waterproof' case. Knurling for knurling's sake is just plain wrong (and if I were Supreme Intergalactic Commander, it would be _criminal_).


#1 - I agree, only one case type should be used as a model. A "mutt," while they very likely may have existed, as military repair facilities may have mixed and matched as necessary, are not what this should be about.

#2 - I agree, the crowns proportions should be kept as close as possible to the original.

#3 - Yes, and I hope my pictures will better display those lines.

#4 - The three piece case is what people seem to use to instantly identify the A-11, even though Elgin, Bulova, and Waltham used the two piece extensively. If making one of those today may incur too much additional expense, then it may not be the best choice, however, these days, (and even in _those_ days) they can be made waterproof, by simply adding gaskets in the proper places.

Personally, the Keystone style is more asthetic than the Star style, but I prefer the Elgin two piece case (Seen on page 150, Figure 142 of TM 9-1575).

My greatest "_fear_" is that by making the watch overly large, the whole feel of the watch will be lost. These watches are mostly black dial; the Keystone, 75% black; the Star, 80% black and the two piece cases, 78 to 79% black. (As opposed to the 72-73% of the Mk 11.) The proportions of the hands is around 30.5% (34% for the Mk 11). This all leads to a relatively short minute hand and a heathly black void beyond the minute track.

At 38 mm, or larger, overall diameter, you will have to increase the relative length of the hands (with an increase in the diameter of the minute track) to keep the void beyond the minute track from taking over the dial, but this may very well make it look like a B-uhr, with an A-11 dial.


----------



## DanG

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



James Haury said:


> Has any thought been given to Russian handwound movements?I think they are at least worth investigating.


Another Chicagoan wanting a handwound movment - great!
I believe that the team already stated elsewhere in this thread that the limited edition of this homage will be the automatic eta 2824 movement, even though the eta 2801 is a direct drop-in hacking movement, but hard to obtain in quantity to offer for this homage edition.
I have not heard back from the team if a buyer supplied 2801 would be considered for fitting by the team into this homage - Bill? Having this done by me as buyer seems contrary to the effort of WUS homage, somehow, plus more work for me:-(
Thanks.


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Thanks for those images! Will comment more on them later, but these appear, to me, to be the real thing, rather than the fake NOS that I picked up (see further down in this thread).

JohnF


----------



## James Haury

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Actually i am standing pat on my collection .For now I am making no new or used watch purchases.I simply cannot afford to.My point is Everyone here seems to be overlooking a potentially excellent source of movements.This could solve the problem of getting a good handcrank movement thereby increasing accuracy of the homage and probably making the watch smaller .Start your search in the Russian watches subforum.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Thank you very much for the excellent pictures, lysander! :-!



James Haury said:


> Everyone here seems to be overlooking a potentially excellent source of movements.This could solve the problem of getting a good handcrank movement thereby increasing accuracy of the homage and probably making the watch smaller .Start your search in the Russian watches subforum.


The reason for the proposed size of 38-40mm (mid-sized by today's standards) is not the movement size which would permit even a 34-35mm watch. As the watch needs to be sold, 38-40mm was chosen with a view to marketability. If the consensus is for a smaller watch (say, 36mm), personally I would welcome that, but my gut feeling is that 38-40mm will be considered attractive by more.

It is not that the option for non-Swiss movements have been "overlooked". ;-) We are only at the start of the project. My first two questions would be:

(1) how would everyone feel about a Russian (or Chinese) movement in an American military homage watch?

(2) Are there any references for hacking, handwound Russian movements in current production?


----------



## Paulo

Don Aldo, IMO the attitude on this 2nd post of yours in this thread is patronising and can be deemed as insulting to the other forumners, so I might have to agree with the moderator that accused you "of bordering on trolling behaviour".

I'm not an expert, but I have sufficient knowledge to say you that you're not the only military watch expert here. Having said that, obviously comments from "someone like you" are welcome, but worth the same as others. In this case, given that some people have advanced allready their money for a reservation, I consider that the opinion of those is worth more.


----------



## Paulo

Yao said:


> That would work as well. :-!


I forgot I had a fine standard example: this Camel Trophy I gave my wife.
Just look how they managed to get a perfect coin edged backcase (the backcase border is at the coin edge, my guess is that the step was needed to make the holes on the back). ;-)


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



DanG said:


> Another Chicagoan wanting a handwound movment - great!
> I believe that the team already stated elsewhere in this thread that the limited edition of this homage will be the automatic eta 2824 movement, even though the eta 2801 is a direct drop-in hacking movement, but hard to obtain in quantity to offer for this homage edition.
> I have not heard back from the team if a buyer supplied 2801 would be considered for fitting by the team into this homage - Bill? Having this done by me as buyer seems contrary to the effort of WUS homage, somehow, plus more work for me:-(
> Thanks.


Sorry Dan. I thought I answered this but its been a long two weeks trying to get watches out to dealers and customers.

I would be happy to install a movement for you if you supply one. However please note that I may not be in a position to give you a discount off the price for your supplying your own movement.


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> Don Aldo! Please stay with us and give us (the group incl. you) your opinions. The more-the merrier!
> Also, since you have the neccesary interest and knowledge, your opinions might be very, very valuable!
> Personally, I can/will have opinions, but not being familiar in person with A-11 watches (as opposed to the B-uhren), my opinions are just opinions, if you understand what I mean!


Hi Don Aldo...I know you from MWR and know you to be a valued and respected contributor there. I also feel that you have a lot to offer this process. However that being said I was a little taken aback by your "fear" post here. To be honest I thought it was counterproductive because it suggested a certain "my way or highway" point of view. We won't be able to satisfy everyone 100% but I think that if everyone keeps an open mind and a certain flexibility we can create a great piece. Your input is certainly welcome.


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

While I'm on the fence about auto vs. hand wound, I think i would prefer a swiss movement over a russian or chinese one any day of the week... regardless of it being an auto.

I'm willing to concede that its more than likely vanity, but I feel like a russian or chinese movement would cheapen the whole project? I can't speak for quality because I own neither, but I'll find it hard to bring up in conversation that my "Limited Edition American Military homage watch" has chinese or russian movement in it?

Or is it just me?


----------



## Don Aldo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Yao said:


> I also feel that you have a lot to offer this process. However that being said I was a little taken aback by your "fear" post here. To be honest I thought it was counterproductive because it suggested a certain "my way or highway" point of view. We won't be able to satisfy everyone 100% but I think that if everyone keeps an open mind and a certain flexibility we can create a great piece. Your input is certainly welcome.


I'm sorry to hear that Bill, you're the main reason why I posted over here in the first place - I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, sir.

That "my way or the highway" stance that I put forward is purely rhetorical and meant to be rejected, shot down, tossed around and spitted out if need be (like it already has been). Take away the style of my post and I hope you'll see the points I brought up are those that, I think, many vintage watch aficionados would like to see considered, mulled around and tossed in or out. The four "fears" are actually, to me, what make vintage watches so special. Style and functionality married into a virtually timeless aesthetic that can take you out of your 2008 'thinking cap' and into the era of the homage: it's been done, with varying degree of success, but I think to disregard these elements is to end up on a slippery slope even with the best of intentions by people with more talent than I could ever aspire for. Hence the "fear" analogy. Again, I'm not Supreme Intergalactic Commander, so you can certainly agree or disagree all you want - I just thought my money draining passion for vintage timepieces could come to some use some day.

All that said, I think much of the input here has been of top notch WIS/Otaku quality and you're no 'chopped liver' either, Bill. One thing's for certain I certainly hope I won't be 100% satisfied with any watch - because if any watch satisfied me 100% my horological collecting and hoarding days would be over; good for my wife but not so fun for me.


----------



## city-dweller

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Feyd said:


> I'll find it hard to bring up in conversation that my "Limited Edition American Military homage watch" has chinese or russian movement in it?
> 
> Or is it just me?


I see your point.
but honestly, ETA 2824 is also nothing to be _really_ proud of.
...and personally, I wouldn't bring up in a conversation
that my watch has a 2824 inside :-x

just my 0.02 EUR


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Don Aldo said:


> I'm sorry to hear that Bill, you're the main reason why I posted over here in the first place - I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, sir.
> 
> That "my way or the highway" stance that I put forward is purely rhetorical and meant to be rejected, shot down, tossed around and spitted out if need be (like it already has been). Take away the style of my post and I hope you'll see the points I brought up are those that, I think, many vintage watch aficionados would like to see considered, mulled around and tossed in or out. The four "fears" are actually, to me, what make vintage watches so special. Style and functionality married into a virtually timeless aesthetic that can take you out of your 2008 'thinking cap' and into the era of the homage: it's been done, with varying degree of success, but I think to disregard these elements is to end up on a slippery slope even with the best of intentions and more talent than I could ever aspire for. Hence the "fear" analogy. Again, I'm not Supreme Intergalactic Commander, so you can certainly agree or disagree all you want - I just thought my money draining passion for vintage timepieces could come to some use some day.
> 
> All that said, I think much of the input here has been of top notch WIS/Otaku quality and you're no 'chopped liver' either, Bill. One thing's for certain I certainly hope I won't be 100% satisfied with any watch - because if any watch satisfied me 100% my horological collecting and hoarding days would be over; good for my wife but not so fun for me.


Stick around Don Aldo and let's get this thing off the ground. :-!


----------



## Yao

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



city-dweller said:


> I see your point.
> but honestly, ETA 2824 is also nothing to be _really_ proud of.
> ...and personally, I wouldn't bring up in a conversation
> that my watch has a 2824 inside :-x
> 
> just my 0.02 EUR


You guys both have good points. Just keep in mind that many companies that have used Russian and Chinese movements have experienced higher rates of warranty problems and the availability of parts may be an issue as well. An ETA product can be serviced anywhere in the world.


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Yao said:


> You guys both have good points. Just keep in mind that many companies that have used Russian and Chinese movements have experienced higher rates of warranty problems and the availability of parts may be an issue as well. An ETA product can be serviced anywhere in the world.


Indeed, just look at Prometheus and its Ocean Diver. They had to switch from chinese movements to Miyota due to reliability issues: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=208544


----------



## Yao

*I really like the Elgin hands...*

what does everyone else think?


----------



## Janne

*Re: I really like the Elgin hands...*

I prefer a Swiss movement. Solid, easy (locally) to service.


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Good point on servicability... I didn't think about that.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



lysanderxiii said:


> These are the Waltham hands:


I like the Waltham hands!
Such an unusual shape today!


----------



## city-dweller

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Yao said:


> many companies that have used Russian and Chinese movements have experienced higher rates of warranty problems and the availability of parts may be an issue as well. An ETA product can be serviced anywhere in the world.


correct.

I also experienced issues with both Russian and Chinese movements.
and serviceability is definitely an important point.

though, neither Russian nor Chinese movements are overly complicated, right? 
and I would expect that any qualified watchmaker would have no problemds with either.

not that I'm totally in love with these options, 
but just think about that -- an American military homage with a Russian movement...
there's something in it ;-)
(of course, if one forgets for a moment about QC issues)
after all, the US and Russia were allies in that war... ;-)

though, I have to confess, I don't know whether there are any Russian movements currently in production 
which would have hacking seconds and satisfy our dimensions constraints...

BTW, am I right that A11 were made in both hacking and non-hacking versions?


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

In the initial specs by Crusader it was stated: Elabore grade, Geneva Stripes etc.
I like that.
When I manage to talk Master Yao into supplying me an extra exhibition caseback, I want to see something nice. Swiss nice!
Good point, that the Soviets were on the Allied side. (Well, they were not in the beginning.)
The Swiss were playing in both teams, so it is not so wrong that either! ;-)


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

The poor ETA 2824-2 is an underrated movement, probably because it is so often used.

Why is the ETA 2824-2 a good movement?

1) Reliability. For an automatic movement, you would be hard pressed to find a movement that surpasses it in reliability for the price. This movement has found use in two well known rugged military watches, the Benrus Type 1 and Type 2 (the Benrus KG 1D21/ETA 2821 is nothing but a 2824 without the calendar parts), and the Marathon GSAR. Also, many of the much touted "tough" watches, Kobald and Ball just to name two, also use this movement.

Further, the ETA 2824 has been in production since 1971 with only minor changes bringing it through the -1 and -2 variations; these modification had nothing to do with reliability or accuracy, but were to streamline production and servicing.

2) Serviceability. With literally millions in service today, parts are available and plentiful. Any watch repairman worth going to, will have some experience with this movement

3) Availability. This movement is currently in production and available.

4) Usability. The ETA 2824, as supplied by ETA is both handwindable, and hacking, something that cannot be said of the Miyota.

5) Accurate. The Elabore grade 2824 is just as accurate, as the similar grade 2892.

The 2824 is a little thicker that its handwinding kin the 2801 or 2804, as well as the only other widely seen Swiss handwind the FHF 96 (now out of production), but in reality, is only 0.5 mm thicker than the original movements: Bulova 10AKCSH - 4.10 mm; Elgin 539 - 4.20 mm; Waltham - 4.10 mm, and can be placed in a case 11 to 12 mm thick (the same thickness as the originals.)

So, you are basically getting the automatic feature for free.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



city-dweller said:


> BTW, am I right that A11 were made in both hacking and non-hacking versions?


I am not aware of a non-hacking version of the A-11.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Thank you Lysander for the excellent summary.

Please let me point out that height is not an issue in the choice of the movement, as the rather large crown (wheteher accurately scaled or not) will require a certain height so as not to dig into the wrist. We don't expect the 2824 to add to the height of the watch vis-à-vis a 2801, e.g.


----------



## thedane

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hello all,

1) I am fine with an automatic movement

2) I like both hand sets - so open for majority vote

3) I understand some may disagree, but may I point out again how great the aged indices look on these two dials - and how I would love if the new dials imitated the colour just a little bit?

Hopefully lysanderxiii will allow the use of excellent photos - This indice nuance is just amazing IMO:










Beautiful!

For the second point, I think some contrast in the paints used for smaller and larger indices would be even more amazing - although the indices on this second dial are somewhat dissolved, what I like here is the contrast between the very white painted smaller numbers and the more patinaed primary indices:











Overall on this issue, I understand if there is some resistance towards making a new dial look exactly like the vintage stuff, but at least a small beige nuance in there? Or at least use some paint(?) that is certain to fade with time, as this did?

/Mads


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Martin is right.

In the original post, I covered the technical aspects: all A-11s were made originally with a 15-jewel subsecond movement that was then modified to a 16-jewel movement with a central sweep seconds via the addition of a pinion bridge attached to the mainspring bridge, as well as a different third wheel with an extended pinion. Further, all movements were originally hacking, with the Elgin and Bulova using an extensible metal finger to pause the balance wheel, while the Waltham used an extensible metal finger to stop the pinion of the central sweep seconds instead.

Field modifications - i.e. repairs - may have removed this, but the specifications call for it.

JohnF


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

The "current production" is the critical point, as we are not looking at acquiring just a few movements, but rather at least 100. This is the greatest stumbling block right now in designing watches, since you can't build them if you literally cannot get the movements...

Now if anyone has a gross of Elgin 539 movements lying around in their basement, originally packed, that'd be a real alternative, but ... that's an alternative universe.

JohnF


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

If you look at all photos of the post from lysanderxiii you'll notice that the 2nd photo you show is the only where the paints differ. That's surely because it's a lumed version. Besides, given that the dial is field type, I assume it's a redial (my bet, given the diference in paint colour between indices and hands) or a variant close to the A-11.



thedane said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 1) I am fine with an automatic movement
> 
> 2) I like both hand sets - so open for majority vote
> 
> 3) I understand some may disagree, but may I point out again how great the aged indices look on these two dials - and how I would love if the new dials imitated the colour just a little bit?
> 
> Hopefully lysanderxiii will allow the use of excellent photos - This indice nuance is just amazing IMO:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful!
> 
> For the second point, I think some contrast in the paints used for smaller and larger indices would be even more amazing - although the indices on this second dial are somewhat dissolved, what I like here is the contrast between the very white painted smaller numbers and the more patinaed primary indices:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall on this issue, I understand if there is some resistance towards making a new dial look exactly like the vintage stuff, but at least a small beige nuance in there? Or at least use some paint(?) that is certain to fade with time, as this did?
> 
> /Mads


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



JohnF said:


> Hi -
> 
> Martin is right.
> 
> In the original post, I covered the technical aspects: all A-11s were made originally with a 15-jewel subsecond movement that was then modified to a 16-jewel movement with a central sweep seconds via the addition of a pinion bridge attached to the mainspring bridge, as well as a different third wheel with an extended pinion. Further, all movements were originally hacking, with the Elgin and Bulova using an extensible metal finger to pause the balance wheel, while the Waltham used an extensible metal finger to stop the pinion of the central sweep seconds instead.
> 
> Field modifications - i.e. repairs - may have removed this, but the specifications call for it.
> 
> JohnF


The Waltham movement uses the same method of balance stop as the Elgin. The only major difference between the two is the spring and balance stop that Waltham used were finer, had more bends and were more prone to breaking.

-------------------------------

Crusader,

The only reason I brought up the height of the 2824 was to show that they are the not really that much thicker than the original movements, so there is no reason _not_ to use them, as they 1) do not require massive changes to the proportions of the case (diameter-to-thickness ratio) and 2) still hand wind, if you chose to do so every day.

As you know, the originals were 11 to 12 mm thick, this is thick enough to house an ETA 2824-2. In fact, the original 32mm two piece case, with a thinner case ring (to allow for a 11-1/2 ligne movement, and no dust cover), will almost fit a 2824-2, as is, it only lacks room for the free spinning of the rotor.

---------------------------

Paulo,

You are correct the second picture of the Elgin hands have been painted (poorly) with luminous material. The luminous paint is NOT original. This is a set of A-11 hands put on an A-17 watch.

---------------------------

All,

The color of the dial printing, and how it ages is dependant on the type of pigment originally used and the environment the dial was subject to over its life.

The Elgin dial has turned beige over the years, the Waltham is white (but no longer a bright white, as it has greyed slightly over the years,) any yellowing seen in the Waltham pictures is due to the incadecent lighting used when the pictures were taken. And Don's A-11 picture seems to show a bright white dial and hands.

No fake aging, please, when Elgin made the watches originally, they were white on black, let's do the same.


----------



## Paulo

lysanderxiii said:


> No fake aging, please, when Elgin made the watches originally, they were white on black, let's do the same.


My feelings exactly! And :thanks for your thorough explanations, I learn a lot reading your posts.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I do not know, but would it not make sense to have a poll which of the three we will "do" ? It is easier to discuss if we know the original!
Also it might bring in more interested guys if they know which one is in the making.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Good idea. Please post your favorite original dials, and we'll set up a poll.


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



thedane said:


> For the second point, I think some contrast in the paints used for smaller and larger indices would be even more amazing - although the indices on this second dial are somewhat dissolved, what I like here is the contrast between the very white painted smaller numbers and the more patinaed primary indices:


Additional information: The large numbers on the A-17 dial (which this is) are painted with red luminous compound, as are the square hour markers. They actually fade too a brownish color, just like all radium based luminous materials.

As for my particular favorite dials

First choice:










Second choice:









Third choice:


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

My dial preference: Waltham
With the coin edged bezel and caseback
In fairness, I do not mind which dial is selected. As long as it has the coin edges


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Case preference: Keystone case style
Dial: simpler version, no railroad tracks

In fact, everything as the Elgin on the post that started this thread.





































With back holes like this.


----------



## city-dweller

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

dial choice: like the beautiful Bulova -- WITH railroad tracks :-!


----------



## vees

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

manual pls


----------



## Don Aldo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Lysander, I'm not sure but I think that the Bulova dial you've shown may be a redial. Beyond being a little too 'crisp' to my eye, there's just something that makes my 'spidey senses' tingle about it. My apologies if I'm mistaken.

I think what might be most useful would be to represent all three dial and hand variants in 'stylistic' fashion; that is to say in a way that makes each represntation void of the extraneous elements (such as the lighting in the photo, how aged the paint has become, etc) which could cloud our judgment vis-a-vis the aesthetic.

If I could operate PhotoShop or if I had any ability at all for that matter, I would like to be able represent the three variations in this style:










Now as to my opinion on which hand and dial variant I think are best: let me put forth that the simplest variant is probably best. All three A-11 dial and hand variants are 'simple' and therefore exquisite at the same time but if you're printing a facsimile/update/homage in 2008 some of the original 'simplicity' could get lost in translation. The sword-like hands on the Elgin A-11 and the Bulova, for example, could end up making the homage look like it has "Sinn 656" hands. In the same breath, the outer track on the Bulova could make the dial look a little too similar to a CWC G10, or any other mil/mil style dial since the 1940s with an outer track. That's why my current vote is for the Waltham A-11 dial and hand variant. The leaf hands have not, to my knowledge, been widely used on many military watches and the seemingly smaller proportion of numerals to dial would - IMHO - translate best into a wider proportioned dial.


----------



## Feyd

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I think I'm with Don Aldo and the previous poster on the Waltham hands... I think that the sharp angles, etc of the other hand options are very close to the Flieger style hands that are on the german pilot watch homages, which I think works really well with the hard-edged/strait/crisp lines of those pieces.

Keeping that in mind I think the "rounder" hands work better at continuing the lines of the case (which will inevitably be a bit softer due to the styling i think we're after) flow better to the inside of the watch.

As far as the dial goes, personally I don't care for the railroad track look, IMO I see it as kind of cluttered, but would be okay with it if it ends up being really faint. I also kind of dig the perimeter "dot" marks rather than the numerals on the rendering in the above post. I see them as a good modern looking alternative in my opinion.

:-!


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I thought we are trying to get the MKII/A-II as close to a agreed watch as possible?
If we are, we should not experiment with dots, lume, faint tracks etc.
The way forward is: 
To decide which of the 3 the majority wants. 
Try to get an original, unmolested/restored watch (unless somebody has one already - River rat, you hear?)
Decide size
Analize the font
Ditto on hands
Design print on dial - (some adjustment will be needed to make it harmonious)
Design size of hands (follows the size/thickness/position of numbers)

Personally, I feel the Waltham is the most "unique" due to the unusual hands.
Same with the coinedge case.

Most of today's Fliegers are looking a little bit lika A-11/A-17/B-uhr A-dial etc.

We must not forget that these watches were designed with one goal - maximum legibility! Consequently the different manufacturers in the different countries have arrived at the approx. same look.
This is the main reason why we should NOT try to change too much.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Don Aldo said:


> The sword-like hands on the Elgin A-11 and the Bulova, for example, could end up making the homage look like it has "Sinn 656" hands. In the same breath, the outer track on the Bulova could make the dial look a little too similar to a CWC G10, or any other mil/mil style dial since the 1940s with an outer track. That's why my current vote is for the Waltham A-11 dial and hand variant. The leaf hands have not, to my knowledge, been widely used on many military watches


And interesting and very valid point, Don Aldo, and one about to sway my preference from Elgin to Waltham. :-!

In fact, I had been thinking that the angles on the Elgin hands would need to be very perfectly designed so as not to invite too much similarity with the Sinn 656 or Damasko DA36 hands. The Waltham leaf hands would get us around that problem indeed, and I agree about the harmony with the rounded lines, too.


----------



## Paulo

Maybe it's just me, because I had this watch, but I can't avoid relating leaf hands with dress watches. :-( o|


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Don Aldo said:


> Lysander, I'm not sure but I think that the Bulova dial you've shown may be a redial. Beyond being a little too 'crisp' to my eye, there's just something that makes my 'spidey senses' tingle about it. My apologies if I'm mistaken.


I know it to be a redial. In one of these threads around here, when I first introduced the watch I stated such.

In the 1930's and 40's, all watches had some "dress" elements, hence the similarity of the Bulova and Elgin hands to typical dress watches of the 40's and 50's. If the Waltham hands are to be used, the Waltham dial should be adopted. If one examines it and the Elgin dial you will note very subtle diferences between the two. Also, the case style is narrowed to the two-piece style and the Star three-piece style. I have never seen the Waltham in a Keystone case.


----------



## malbino

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

As a complete newbie embarrassing myself with constant questions.

I really like the concept and would be happy to put myself down for one ,once i saw a protype.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

If I may advise you (again ?), Malbino, sign up now. It will be a Limited Edition (god, I hate that expression!) of 100 watches, and I guess there will be no prototype as such. First we will retro-design it in the computer, when everybody is happy Master Yao will proceed with having the parts made and assembly.
Or am I wrong? That is what we did to the Laco LE anyway.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> If I may advise you (again ?), Malbino, sign up now. It will be a Limited Edition (god, I hate that expression!) of 100 watches, and I guess there will be no prototype as such. First we will retro-design it in the computer, when everybody is happy Master Yao will proceed with having the parts made and assembly.
> Or am I wrong? That is what we did to the Laco LE anyway.


There is considerable expense involved in creating a prototype; that's why we need the paid commitments. And they are refundable if the project does not fly, or the committer changes his mind.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



thedane said:


> 3) I understand some may disagree, but may I point out again how great the aged indices look on these two dials - and how I would love if the new dials imitated the colour just a little bit?


Mads, we should also keep in mind that for the originally unlumed A-11, the maximum contrast between dial and hands was a key feature. If the project goes in the direction of an unlumed watch, sacrificing the functional feature of the original watch for a purposefully "aged" look takes something away from the homage, IMHO.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> Mads, we should also keep in mind that for the originally unlumed A-11, the maximum contrast between dial and hands was a key feature. If the project goes in the direction of an unlumed watch, sacrificing the functional feature of the original watch for a purposefully "aged" look takes something away from the homage, IMHO.


+1 !
Mads, keep the watch and natural "aging" will happen!


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> +1 !
> Mads, keep the watch and natural "aging" will happen!
> 
> I am very sad that Waltham never used the Keystone fluted bezel :-(


The Star watch case (these were used on Waltham A-11 and A-17 watches) had a fluted bezel, see the image in my last post.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

I am sorry! Getting a bit confused.
My post is edited.
Thanks for the info, Lysanderxiii!!


----------



## racerx454

*Swiss*



Yao said:


> what does everyone else think?


Definitely Swiss over Chinese (yuck) or Russian.

-Kevin-


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Swiss*

Hi -

Just for the record: there are some fine watch movements coming out of China. They may be few and far between, but remember that even Switzerland started out as a low-wage country...

JohnF

PS: Neither would have come into question for a number of reasons, not the least of which is quality and reliability. While Russian watches can be very reliable, modern movements don't meet that description...and getting 100 good Chinese movements would be, at the end of the day, given the time needed for quality control, etc., probably be more expensive than Swiss movements...


----------



## cdmackay

*Re: Swiss*

and, of course, many ETA movements, used in most "Swiss" watches, are assembled in the far east. Since the parts themselves (or, at least > 50% of them) are originally manufactured in Switzerland, and the completed ebauches are shipped back to Switzerland for final case assembly, the resulting watch can still be marked as "Swiss Made". I believe.

Also, note that the very reasonable BHI flying tourbillon is using an all-Chinese movement, and has garnered considerable praise from BHI members, a notoriously snobby lot.


----------



## Paulo

I'd keep with a proven, reliable and reasonably priced movement (i.e., ETA 2824-2). No point in adding unnecessary complexity to the project IMO;: :rodekaart


----------



## Yao

*Re: Swiss*



cdmackay said:


> and, of course, many ETA movements, used in most "Swiss" watches, are assembled in the far east. Since the parts themselves (or, at least > 50% of them) are originally manufactured in Switzerland, and the completed ebauches are shipped back to Switzerland for final case assembly, the resulting watch can still be marked as "Swiss Made". I believe.
> 
> Also, note that the very reasonable BHI flying tourbillon is using an all-Chinese movement, and has garnered considerable praise from BHI members, a notoriously snobby lot.


Sorry I would have to disagree with your statement. This may be true for quartz movements but as far as know this is not the case for mechanical movements.


----------



## cdmackay

*Re: Swiss*

my apologies, I'm happy to be corrected if you know this to be correct. I had read it in a few different places, but I have no first-hand knowledge, and I believe that you can't always rely on the internet 

Do you have any references demonstrating that ETA make and assemble their mechanical ébauches, and other parts, entirely in Switzerland? I would be keen to see that.

[apols for dragging off-topic, as Paulo notes; I've remembered that it was a piece on the Bay review site that noted that ETA movement productions is sourced in China. But that doesn't make it true. anyway, I will shut up now]


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Swiss*



cdmackay said:


> my apologies, I'm happy to be corrected if you know this to be correct. I had read it in a few different places, but I have no first-hand knowledge, and I believe that you can't always rely on the internet
> 
> Do you have any references demonstrating that ETA make and assemble their mechanical ébauches, and other parts, entirely in Switzerland? I would be keen to see that.


Although this is a very interesting question, I fail to see its relevancy for this project, so may I suggest that this question is moved to a more suitable thread? :thanks

Looking at Laco's threads, this will be enormous even if we keep it to the point.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Swiss*

Maybe the odd cog or so!
Have you read the latest IW mag, they mention some nice Chinese watches, in the higher end of the price bracket!



cdmackay said:


> and, of course, many ETA movements, used in most "Swiss" watches, are assembled in the far east. Since the parts themselves (or, at least > 50% of them) are originally manufactured in Switzerland, and the completed ebauches are shipped back to Switzerland for final case assembly, the resulting watch can still be marked as "Swiss Made". I believe.
> 
> Also, note that the very reasonable BHI flying tourbillon is using an all-Chinese movement, and has garnered considerable praise from BHI members, a notoriously snobby lot.


----------



## Narruc

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Just sent in my deposit!

Though I think a Made in the USA hand wound movement would be awesome I agree that it will not happen at this price point or within the proposed schedule for this project. Thus, I'll happily accept an ETA auto as an accecptable second.

As for dials, hands and other parts... I think the Elgin in the first post of this thread is just about perfect. I do not like the railroad tracks. And I agree with those who posted that keeping the crown to case proportions as close to the original as posible would be desireable.

Thanks,

CJ


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

What are the thought about which of the three watch dials we should go for?


----------



## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Janne said:


> What are the thought about which of the three watch dials we should go for?


My thoughts are here: https://www.watchuseek.com/showpost.php?p=1498168&postcount=138 ;-) :-d


----------



## vees

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

sorry....
whats the final specs? still 2824 movement??


----------



## Narruc

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Paulo said:


> My thoughts are here: https://www.watchuseek.com/showpost.php?p=1498168&postcount=138 ;-) :-d


Agreed.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



vees said:


> sorry....
> whats the final specs? still 2824 movement??


Unless someone finds a supply of at least 100 movements ... yes.


----------



## Shogan191

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Does the 2824 have a center seconds? Sorry if that's been answered before but the thread is getting pretty long.


----------



## Narruc

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Shogan191 said:


> Does the 2824 have a center seconds? Sorry if that's been answered before but the thread is getting pretty long.


Yes.


----------



## Bhanu Chopra

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Sorry that I am joining the party in middle ;-)

Movement: Lesson learned from Laco project during the initial discussion was simple modification to ETA 2824 into hand wind movement. Is this a possibility?

Dial: Bill Yao excells at the reproduction of dial and hands :-! With Frank and all of our contribution, this can be a nice homage to the A-11.

I am really enjoying the WUS special edition and kudos to everyone for participating. This is increasing our knowleadge of the watch history, design process, components, and overall production.

Cheers,
Bhanu


----------



## lysanderxiii

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



hotnerd said:


> Movement: Lesson learned from Laco project during the initial discussion was simple modification to ETA 2824 into hand wind movement. Is this a possibility?


The ETA 2824-2 does hand wind, it also winds automatically.

It would not be very practical to attempt to delete the auto-wind capability.

Removing the auto-wind bridge is possible, but it leaves a ugly hole in the train and barrel bridge (where the winding mechanism would normally fit), and the rachet wheel is very fine toothed to engage the reduction gear pinion, for constant hand winding, the ratchet wheel should have gear teeth the same size as the crown wheel.


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Sorry for the absence. I've been extraordinarily busy and just came back from a completely unexpected road trip, and since I don't have mobile emails (yep, the luddite that I am, I don't even have a notebook or a mobile capable of such fripperies) I've been remiss in posting, Sorry!

I think the best way of describing the 2824 with the rotor removed is to call it butchered. Lysander is absolutely correct: unless you do some rework of the keyless works, as well as replacing the mainspring, you've basically turned one of the most robust watch movements around into a cripple that will require quite a bit of maintenance.

So, yes, it can be done (and Laco has done it). It is ugly and was done out of necessity, and I don't think it makes sense to do that here simply to have a hand-wound movement.

The key thing for Bill - if I may be so bold as to speak for him - is quality and professional work (y'all who have one of his watches knows what I mean). Butchering the movement is not his style. I'm not down on the Laco Type B (I have one!), but that choice was theirs, not the members of the forum, and Bill simply won't make that sort of serious compromise in the quality of his work.

And the modification isn't so simple: it's not "merely" removing the oscillating weight and those parts of the movement that it drives, but also, as lysanderxiii says, changing the ratchet wheel, as well as replacing the mainspring with a hand-wind mainspring to match the removal of the automatic winding mechanism. If I remember correctly, the 2804 (non-automatic movement that the 2824 is based on) has a significantly longer mainspring with a different power curve than the 2824, which has a very flat power curve when well wound, but is weaker when the watch is running down (this because the watch is normally very well wound when worn and having a very flat power curve will help in keeping accuracy up as much as possible.

Hence not changing the mainspring -you don't *have* to - means that such movements will only show their best time-keeping qualities when fully wound, and will need frequent winding to do so. Before you think you need to do that with your Laco Type B, stop: that is why they replaced the mainspring!

JohnF


----------



## Dr. Robert

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hello John, thanks for writing the info on movement..... I am a big fan of MKII...I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's size won't be in the school of "big" fashion...bigger diameters and longer case lengths. I can understand updating it from the 32-34mm, but, perhaps...not "super-sizing" it.


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Dr. Robert said:


> Hello John, thanks for writing the info on movement..... I am a big fan of MKII...I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's size won't be in the school of "big" fashion...bigger diameters and longer case lengths. I can understand updating it from the 32-34mm, but, perhaps...not "super-sizing" it.


+1 ! 38-(40mm (max) )!

Any decision re the case?
My rason for the coin edge is that the cases without the very distinctive coin edge risk making just another watch that looks like a Sinn etc etc!


----------



## JohnF

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Hi -

Absolutely: this will not be super-sized, and I think the coin edge will be there. I will try to do some dial work this weekend, but I've got the mother-in-law in for an 11-day visit.

JohnF


----------



## Gansan

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

If pure hand wound movements are really required, will it be OK to consider HMT movements from India? Please don't think of me as presumptuous, I know this is a (at least by my standards) high end project and people will like to have a decorated movement to admire through the see through case backs, which the hmt movements are not. But they are reliable, have been around for a long time and are currently in production. As they provide a link for the movements in their website I suppose they sell them too. If required I can contact them and find out. And they will be quite inexpensive too. I can't come in to the project though, the stated price is way above my orbit! Here is the link for the movements:

http://www.hmti.com/Html/Watches/dsp_MovGallery.asp

Please click on the movement pictures for additional info.


----------



## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Do the Indian movements hack?


----------



## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

The movement does not hack, unfortunately.
After I read Gansan's post this morning, I took one of my HMT Pilots to my tame Swiss watchmaker. I wanted him to give me an opinion as a pro (he is trained and qualified to work on JLC, Rolex, Omega etc) of the movement.
He told me that it is very well designed, seem to be very robust, that it is an old design that is easy to repair and service. He also said that the movement has been assembled with care, no signs of dirt or debris.

I would not mind this movement in the A-11 Project.
Plus side: Old proven construction and design (50 years or so)
Is already being used in a MilPil watch (for many, many years!)
Cost

Minus side: No hacking


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## Paulo

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Still, and we've been there before on this thread, it's difficult to beat the 2824 in what regards serviceability.


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## Gansan

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Thanks Janne, for getting the Swiss watch maker's opinion! It was a revelation to me also and made me look at the watches with a new respect:-!. Even if they don't sell the movements, it would not be difficult to procure 125 watches for good measure (since the requirement is 100 movements) and cannibalise them for the movements. They need not be Pilot watches alone but whichever model that has the same movement. The cost @ INR 515 each will be INR 64375 (about USD 1430). Even assuming the shipping and duties trebles the cost, it will still be USD 4300. Just a thought!


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## Janne

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Any news about the A-11 Project?


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## clew84

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

+1 for more news. I just learned of this project and read through most of the posts and am interested.

Of the 100, how many spots are left?


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



clew84 said:


> Of the 100, how many spots are left?


More than half.


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

*Important: Two people posted here that they wanted to reserve a watch today, and one of the posts was lost when I transfered them to the correct reservation thread, apparently duet to a software glitch.

Coud that person (not Broke-Broker - I have got you covered - but the other one) please post again in the reservation thread https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=207684&page=7 ?

Thank you very much!

*


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## Narruc

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

Are there any updates on this project. It looks like A-11 has been put on the back burner to the Kingston project.

CJ


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*

We are talking to Bill and are expecting to make a statement shortly.


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## Crusader

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*

First of all, let me thank you in the name of JohnF and Bill Yao for your interest and participation in the A-11 project.

Unfortunately, and this is something we all sincerely regret, the A-11 project cannot continue and needs to be canceled.

We have not gotten enough interest to make it viable, with less than 30 overall requests for reserving one of the watches. We needed 100 firm commitments for the watch to be built. Without those firm commitments, which we had hoped to have within 30 days, it's simply not feasible to make the watches.

There's no one really to blame: it happened the way it happened. Among other things, we estimated that demand for the watch would be stronger than it turned out to be: the recession took its toll here, as we've seen this reflected elsewhere amongst the smaller watch manufacturers.

We sincerely regret that we have no better news, and regret any inconvenience caused. Bill will be in touch shortly about refunding any deposits already made.

I will close and unstick the A-11 reservation thread, and will leave the thread on the history of the A-11 watch, as well as this discussion thread, open.


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## Paulo

Thanks for all the effort Martin, John and Bill.
Of course, count me in if/when a new attempt is made. :-!


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## Steve356

that's too bad but perhaps inevitable due to the low traffic on this message board? maybe if the potential customer base can be widened by posting this on some other websites and perhaps the MKII official site, there will be sufficient interest. 
also, to be honest without an actual mock-up of the case and dial/hands, it's difficult to make a commitment.


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## Recht

Steve356 said:


> that's too bad but perhaps inevitable due to the low traffic on this message board? maybe if the potential customer base can be widened by posting this on some other websites and perhaps the MKII official site, there will be sufficient interest.


I was going to say the same thing.


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## Biggie_Robs

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*

Thanks for the effort towards getting this done. I'm disappointed that it didn't happen--it would've been a cool watch.

Does anyone have any idea when MKII will get in touch with us about refunding our deposit? They've not responded to my inquiry 2 days ago.

I'm not trying to be unreasonable; I am just asking if anyone knows when our money will be returned to us--or, failing that, when MKII will at least let us know when our money will be returned.


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## Crusader

*Re: The Wristwatch Which Won World War II: The A-11, An American Watch Icon*

I'll send Bill another e-mail.


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## Yao

*The funds will be returned later this week...*

and I will add additional funds to the transfers (via PayPal) so that the recipients will not be out any money.


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## eganwh

*Re: The funds will be returned later this week...*

Bill,

If it works on your end, could you give us the option of a store credit. Personally, I plan on ordering a TR-900 or Stingray in the near future. I hate to see Paypal making $$ on all these transfers.;-) :thanks


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## bloozy

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



Crusader said:


> We are talking to Bill and are expecting to make a statement shortly.


Hello- Thus far my participation here has been strictly as a lurker and secondly as someone probably interested in purchasing a finished product. Admittedly I have not been here in a few weeks. Am I to understand that this project is in the can? Please advise.


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## Crusader

*Re: Special Watchuseek A-11 Homage Watch By Bill Yao - Discussion Thread*



bloozy said:


> Hello- Thus far my participation here has been strictly as a lurker and secondly as someone probably interested in purchasing a finished product. Admittedly I have not been here in a few weeks. Am I to understand that this project is in the can? Please advise.


Yes.



Crusader said:


> First of all, let me thank you in the name of JohnF and Bill Yao for your interest and participation in the A-11 project.
> 
> Unfortunately, and this is something we all sincerely regret, the A-11 project cannot continue and needs to be canceled.
> 
> We have not gotten enough interest to make it viable, with less than 30 overall requests for reserving one of the watches. We needed 100 firm commitments for the watch to be built. Without those firm commitments, which we had hoped to have within 30 days, it's simply not feasible to make the watches.
> 
> There's no one really to blame: it happened the way it happened. Among other things, we estimated that demand for the watch would be stronger than it turned out to be: the recession took its toll here, as we've seen this reflected elsewhere amongst the smaller watch manufacturers.
> 
> We sincerely regret that we have no better news, and regret any inconvenience caused. Bill will be in touch shortly about refunding any deposits already made.
> 
> I will close and unstick the A-11 reservation thread, and will leave the thread on the history of the A-11 watch, as well as this discussion thread, open.


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## Nalu

Steve356 said:


> that's too bad but perhaps inevitable due to the low traffic on this message board? maybe if the potential customer base can be widened by posting this on some other websites and perhaps the MKII official site, there will be sufficient interest.
> also, to be honest without an actual mock-up of the case and dial/hands, it's difficult to make a commitment.


It was shopped around on another military watch without much resultant interest. If the two largest milwatch forums can't generate 100 orders, I don't think Bill should/would go ahead.


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## Crusader

I must say that the project was dear to my heart (I would still like to have an up-to-date, maintainable, no-worries A-11 re-issue).

Having said that, I am contect that we tried to make the project fly, even if we didn't succeed. But we tried, and I think it is better to tray and fail, than not to try at all for fear of failure. 

I can see why the project was a difficult proposition, and I have learned much about just how crucial the movement question is, and I think the lack of a suitable and interesting movement contributed more to the downfall of the project than other factors combined. Perhaps the economic downturn will make suitable movements available ... ;-)


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## Paulo

Crusader said:


> I must say that the project was dear to my heart (I would still like to have an up-to-date, maintainable, no-worries A-11 re-issue).
> 
> Having said that, I am contect that we tried to make the project fly, even if we didn't succeed. But we tried, and I think it is better to tray and fail, than not to try at all for fear of failure.
> 
> I can see why the project was a difficult proposition, and I have learned much about just how crucial the movement question is, and I think the lack of a suitable and interesting movement contributed more to the downfall of the project than other factors combined. Perhaps the economic downturn will make suitable movements available ... ;-)


I fully agree with you Martin.

The fact that we didn't reach a conclusion on the specific version that was going to be made before asking for the reservation might have contributed too.


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## Janne

Maybe in 2010 or 2011 the interest will be bigger.
Still, I am still interested. maybe Bill can keep an eye open for a suitable movement?

Just as Crusader, I would love a "modern", wearable A-11.


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## Nalu

Crusader is correct in pointing out that the movement situation is changing. Possibly worth a re-look later this year :think:


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## Janne

Crusader said:


> Perhaps the economic downturn will make suitable movements available ... ;-)


Aha! I read the "perhaps", did not see the ";-)" !
So there is perhaps still hope! ;-);-)


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## Guest

.


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## Crusader

Mike. said:


> Hi, do you think that this A-11 project could be "revived" sometimes in future?


Yes, I think it could.


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## CCCP

Crusader said:


> Yes, I think it could.


That would be nice... |> wearing a 32mm vintage is no option


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## Guest

.


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## Enigma

CCCP said:


> wearing a 32mm vintage is no option


I'm wearing mine as I type this at work. I love it!


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## CCCP

Enigma said:


> I'm wearing mine as I type this at work. I love it!


Ok let's say that's subjective...  many people find it too small, and/or don't want to risk damaging a nice vintage watch. For some time i worn a 33mm watch but I prefer 37mm or more ;-)


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## Janne

Is Bill still too busy?
I am in!


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## rationaltime

Hello Janne,

I think the project was canceled because there were not enough buyers
signed up to make the minimum order.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## JohnF

Hi -

The project was canceled for two reasons: not enough buyers and a problem in movement availability.

The latter has been changed.

I'm not at liberty to discuss anything else beyond that.

JohnF


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