# about Smiths watches and other British watch brand!



## nome93

Hello, just wondering if anybody here has experience with Smiths watches! Or do anybody know other british brands of watches?

Hope you know!


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## bjohnson

nome93 said:


> Hello, just wondering if anybody here has experience with Smiths watches! Or do anybody know other british brands of watches?
> 
> Hope you know!


There's a guy named mach on http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk that has a lot of Services watches


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## Chascomm

nome93 said:


> Hello, just wondering if anybody here has experience with Smiths watches! Or do anybody know other british brands of watches?
> 
> Hope you know!


What were you wanting to know?

Smiths (clocks and automotive instruments manufacturer) started manufacturing their own watches in 1947 in a factory in England in 1947. They also entered a joint venture with Ingersoll (the British offshoot, not the US company) to start a watch factory in Wales, that started production in 1940. English Smiths are much higher quality, but Welsh Smiths are very durable. The original Welsh Smiths Empire pocket watch (also branded Ingersoll Triumph) was based on an old Ingersoll design from around 1897. After that came a series of wristwatches. Ingersoll pulled out of the venture in the 1960s and started sourcing their watches from Europe. Smiths gradually replaced their Welsh models with locally-case Seiko movements, and later fully-imported low-grade Swiss watches. The last Smiths watch made in 1980 was the original pocket watch.

There are various other British brands, but nothing in the post-war period to match the English-made Smiths, which are particularly known for their use by the British army. Edmund Hillary wore a Smiths De Luxe to the top of Mt Everest.

Here are my Smiths:

Early 1950s Smiths Empire RY:









Late 1950s Smiths TY:









Some other British watches...

Guildhall, made in 1950 by the Louis Newmark Company








Swiss parts movement, other parts sourced from within Britain. This model would later be manufactured entirely in-house for Newmark and other brands.

Westclox Waterproof, early 1960s








Made in Scotland from 1960 until 1975. Case design USA mid 1950s, movement design USA 1936.

Timex 1978








Actually only the case is made in Scotland, the rest of the parts and final assembly was in Taiwan. Just prior to this one being made, these watches were made entirely in Scotland.

So there's a start. Now you can plug some of those names into the forum search engine and find some older posts ;-)


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## nome93

Thank you!


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## Marrick

See also

http://reviews.ebay.co.uk/A-GUIDE-T...PLEASURE-OR-PROFIT_W0QQugidZ10000000001402028


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## mrsnak

The only Smiths I own, but it's not a timepiece. 










It's in my 1961 Morris Minor


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## ulackfocus

Had this one on for a few minutes at a small GTG recently:



















Ridiculously efficient winding system, but some type of infringement lawsuit halted the production of these.


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## nome93

Thanks, my favorite model of the Smiths watches is De Luxe. But this model is very expensive. I hope I got it one day!


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## Kmeqk

Does anyone know of a good source for vintage smith watches other than ebay? I am thinking more like a dealer in vintage watches.


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## Will

I have one...


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## nome93

Nice Army Smiths!!


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## Outlawyer

Nice Morris! Love it. 103921 miles?


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## Kevg

Got a few Smiths great watches.




























and 1 for the ladies









Go a few more I've not photo'd yet


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## nome93

Nice that first one!


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## Chascomm

Kevg said:


> Got a few Smiths great watches.


Isn't that one of the Seiko-powered models? How is the movement signed?


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## Kevg

Here you go complete Japan movement


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## Chascomm

Thanks! So all those reports about a 'Seiko movement' that I've read are not strictly accurate. This is in fact a Hamazawa movement. Undoubtedly there was some connection with Seiko as these movements were used in the Seiko company's cheap brands School Time and Tomony, and the auto-winding versions used a system for which Seiko held the patent at that time, but Hamazawa was not taken over by Seiko until many years after this watch was made.


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## tomshep

The Seiko story is another urban myth. Smiths were insulated from the real world by exchange controls, Customs and Excise and high taxes on imports. By 1960, that was becoming a thing of the past and Swiss watches, with their cachet were in the ascendancy again. Most of Smiths' production was inexpensive watches at the jointly operated Anglo Celtic works in South Wales. They were never big enough to survive in a global market and I imagine that they are quite rare outside their homeland. Another myth is that the movements were designed or built by Jaeger LeCoultre. Although a senior JLC man worked for Smiths, there was no industrial cooperation.


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## Chascomm

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this Smiths uses the Japanese Hamazawa movement as I remember seeing an Astral watch on ebay with the automatic version. Astral was a Smiths sub-brand formerly made at their Cheltenham factory. The earliest examples that I know about of these Hamazawa movements is in Tomony watches from the late 1960s. So my guess is that these Japanese-powered Smiths may have been produced as a direct replacement both the Cheltenham and Ystradgynlais Smiths men's watches. I recall reading a former salesman remarking that the reputation of the superior Cheltenham-built watches was dragged down by the more common Welsh-built pin-levers. Perhaps that is why Astral was elevated from a model name to a brand name.

As for why Smiths watches started appearing with Japanese movements, Ingersoll pulled out of the Anglo-Celtic joint-venture at Ystradgynlais in 1969, and I've read somewhere that they had been the prime-movers behind the development of the Anglo-Celtic 600-series jewelled-lever movements, so without them it may not have been worthwhile to continue manufacturing mens wristwatches at Ystradgynlais. Ingersoll's departure may have been a tipping point for Smiths who had to carry Anglo-Celtic on their own. 

I wonder if the Japanese movements were cased-up in Britain or whether all the parts were imported. It was not long after this watch was made that Smiths started importing complete Swiss watches.


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## Patrick_Ethan

Just acquired this nifty late 70's Smiths ASTRAL branded auto using what looks to be a Hamazawa automatic
View attachment 983706

View attachment 983707

View attachment 983710


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## Marrick

That's in lovely condition - but I don't think its a Smiths. I think that Smiths sold the Astral name after they gave up on watchmaking. Maybe someone will be able to say for sure.:think:


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## Chascomm

Marrick said:


> That's in lovely condition - but I don't think its a Smiths. I think that Smiths sold the Astral name after they gave up on watchmaking. Maybe someone will be able to say for sure.:think:


Smiths branded watches were still being made until about 1980. This is a bit earlier than that, I think. Also there is the Hamazawa-powered 'Smiths' earlier in this thread. So even if Smiths sold the 'Astral' name soon after closing the Cheltenham factory, there may possibly still have been some connections between Smiths and the new owner of the Astral name.


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## Patrick_Ethan

Chascomm said:


> Smiths branded watches were still being made until about 1980. This is a bit earlier than that, I think. Also there is the Hamazawa-powered 'Smiths' earlier in this thread.


After surfing for a couple days, it looks like there are plenty of Smiths & ASTRAL dialed watches using the Hamazawa movements and almost all look mid-late seventies but not newer. I'm wondering if the ASTRAL name simply vanished or if anyone has a seen a _Japan_ dialed version, and if so produced by which brand?


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## Marrick

I've also invested some time in googling this - and I can't find anything (oyther than Astral Tequila and Astral cigars etc).:-d It seems odd that even the sites provided by Smiths brand experts don't mention under what arrangement the Astral name continued. Never mind - sooner or later a snippet of information will emerge.;-)


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## bubba48

My two "_GT Britain made_"


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## Stuart Eggleton

Marrick said:


> I've also invested some time in googling this - and I can't find anything (oyther than Astral Tequila and Astral cigars etc).:-d It seems odd that even the sites provided by Smiths brand experts don't mention under what arrangement the Astral name continued. Never mind - sooner or later a snippet of information will emerge.;-)


I be interested in find out what happen. Does any one know who Smiths sold the brand too as well before it was resisted by "Time Factor"


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## Chascomm

Stuart Eggleton said:


> I be interested in find out what happen. Does any one know who Smiths sold the brand too as well before it was resisted by "Time Factor"


Regarding the use of the 'Smiths' brand; I have no firm evidence on this, just some stuff that I'm dredging up from the back of my memory, so take what I say with a pinch of salt...

I vaguely recall some story about Roy Taylor of RLT watches putting in a bid to Smiths Industries for the use of the name but without success. And I equally vaguely recall seeing some kind of Swiss made watch with the Smiths brand after that sold I think by some Scotland-based company. And I thought that Time Factors acquired the naming rights directly from Smiths.

Also a friend of mine has a Smiths-branded clock in his MG that was made about a decade or so ago (the clock, not the car). It is a visually accurate reproduction of the Smiths electric panel clocks of old, although the time setting method was unlike any that I've tried before. My friend told me that a clock-making company bought the tooling from Smiths and was permitted to use the brand name but only on that particular product. I have been unable to Google anything about that.

I don't know if any of the above is useful, and it doesn't address the question of what happened to the Astral brand.


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## HOROLOGIST007

I think this is about the rarest Smiths wristwatch you will ever see. It is *a 1963 Smiths Imperial Automatic in 9kt*. In mint condition
What makes this watch so rare - well in 1959, the decision was taken by Smiths to design and create an automatic model that would compete against the best in the world.
A small group of outstanding graduates from the National School of Horology was assembled led by a chap called Peter Amis, Richard Good was also part of the team, and charged with the creation of a self winding movement.
This was the caliber 144, manufactured ENTIRELY in England, it was literally, the Rolls-Royce of automatics at the time. Just look at the finish on rotor and bridges! Rolex couldn't dream of making anything to this standard.

HOWEVER - All was not well. The Smiths design team basically, to put it bluntly, stole the unique winding arrangement that had been designed for IWC by the true genius engineer Albert Pellaton (his father is James Pellaton the escapement genius)
IWC reacted on seeing the Smiths caliber, threatened serious legal action and production ceased immediately
It would appear that only 500 or maxm 1000 pcs were ever made.
Mine is serial 121 - It IS PROMISED to The British Museum in London.
_*There would be automatic Smiths watches later, but with SWISS NOT ENGLISH, made movements in them*_

*This is a very rare piece of English Horology - Destined to the British Museum - London*













ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS: Marcus Hardy -Sold me this piece and mentor

Its a VERY special timepiece

Note after reading this go back to page 1 post 7 - look familiar - yes its mine. Not surprised he was banned to acknowledgement to the owner. 
Regards


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## Mirius

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Not surprised he was banned to acknowledgement to the owner.


That looks like a fantastic finish to the watch. I have no idea though what the above sentence means :-s


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## HOROLOGIST007

Mirius said:


> That looks like a fantastic finish to the watch. I have no idea though what the above sentence means :-s


LOL
I had to think
ULACKFOCUS posted MY watch on page 1 of this thread, no acknowledgement to me.
I went to PM him - but he is banned - so I slyly thought maybe because he used others items. just joking.

PS - the watch is a dream to see.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Smiths ceased production and closed its factories in 1970


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## Eeeb

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> LOL
> I had to think
> ULACKFOCUS posted MY watch on page 1 of this thread, no acknowledgement to me.
> I went to PM him - but he is banned - so I slyly thought maybe because he used others items. just joking.
> 
> PS - the watch is a dream to see.


Is that your arm in the picture? Dennis represented that as his watch. He is a very reputable person and I suspect may be one of the OTHER folks in the world which have this watch.

While discipline actions against individuals are not discussed publicly the main reasons people are banned are spam, rude behavior towards others, dishonesty, and other violations of the rules of the forum. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever charged Dennis with dishonesty. He is one of the best experts on Longines I have ever known. We miss him but ... I can not abide challenges to his ethics when that seems so out of place for him.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Eeeb said:


> Is that your arm in the picture? Dennis represented that as his watch. He is a very reputable person and I suspect may be one of the OTHER folks in the world which have this watch.
> 
> While discipline actions against individuals are not discussed publicly the main reasons people are banned are spam, rude behavior towards others, dishonesty, and other violations of the rules of the forum. To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever charged Dennis with dishonesty. He is one of the best experts on Longines I have ever known. We miss him but ... I can not abide challenges to his ethics when that seems so out of place for him.


It IS MY watch
That GTG he tried it on - in the background is my book with the details of that timepiece

Dennis even says I "tried this watch on at a recent GTG (WTF)#
It is NOT his watch - its mine above

I care not WHY he was banned - really
But that is my watch

Fact

LOOK at the write up I gave
You own this Museum piece and ONLY show your wrist ??


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## Eeeb

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> It IS MY watch
> That GTG he tried it on - in the background is my book with the details of that timepiece
> 
> Dennis even says I "tried this watch on at a recent GTG (WTF)#
> It is NOT his watch - its mine above
> 
> I care not WHY he was banned - really
> But that is my watch
> 
> Fact
> 
> LOOK at the write up I gave
> You own this Museum piece and ONLY show your wrist ??


OK. Glad that got cleared up!

Well, from a credit viewpoint, what is protected is the picture, not the object. You can take pictures of things you do not own and no form of credit is normally needed. Otherwise all my cityscapes could never be used! LOL

For example, I own none of these yachts or cruise liners! :-d


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## HOROLOGIST007

LOL
LUCKY you
Suggest you abandon these forums and jump on it

No I care not about Dennis post - indeed I am flattered

And I am banned from other forums too.


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## Eeeb

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> ...
> And I am banned from other forums too.


Many of us are :-d

It is actually hard to get banned from WUS. It takes either a collective agreement of the moderators that rule violations occurred and the member won't stop after being warned or a unilateral decision of Ernie The Owner that the person is not good for the forum. The latter is how that YouTube watch review guy got axed several months ago...

Just irritating people isn't enough, unless you violate rules while irritating. I'm still around after irritating many Seiko fanatics when I kept pointing out the Spring Drive is just a copy of a Swiss watch that never went into production. Seiko had to wait until the Swiss patents expired before introducing the watch.


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## Chascomm

I question the 'theft' claim. By the time Smiths made the Imperial automatic, Timex were already using a system that was closer to Pellaton's original design than Smiths (i.e. it had both pawls on the same side of the pawl wheel). Did IWC never pursue Timex over the millions of watches that they made up from 1957 until about 1980 using the same system? Not to mention the Pellaton-esque designs by Longines, Cyma, Revue and Citizen that had also been in production prior to 1959...

It would be interesting to find out exactly when the IWC/Pellaton patent expired because in the 1960s there were also Pellaton-inspired auto-winding systems made by Orient, AHS, Seiko, Shanghai and Otero.


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## Chascomm

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Smiths ceased production and closed its factories in 1970


To be precise, Smiths ceased manufacturing watches at their Cheltenham, England factory in 1970. However after Ingersoll sold out in 1969, Smiths became the sole owner of the Anglo-Celtic factory in Wales that continued to produce Smiths-branded pocket-watches until 1980. After that Smiths Industries continued to manufacture non-watch items.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Chascomm said:


> I question the 'theft' claim. By the time Smiths made the Imperial automatic, Timex were already using a system that was closer to Pellaton's original design than Smiths (i.e. it had both pawls on the same side of the pawl wheel). Did IWC never pursue Timex over the millions of watches that they made up from 1957 until about 1980 using the same system? Not to mention the Pellaton-esque designs by Longines, Cyma, Revue and Citizen that had also been in production prior to 1959...
> 
> It would be interesting to find out exactly when the IWC/Pellaton patent expired because in the 1960s there were also Pellaton-inspired auto-winding systems made by Orient, AHS, Seiko, Shanghai and Otero.


Hi. Not sure what there is to question. What I wrote were the facts that happened between Smiths and IWC.
IWC threatened heavy legal action, and Smiths withdrew the watch.
hence only some 500 were ever produced.

That was the chronology of events behind this Imperial watch. 
And the reason the British Museum want and will receive it
it regards.


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Hi. Not sure what there is to question. What I wrote were the facts that happened between Smiths and IWC.
> IWC threatened heavy legal action, and Smiths withdrew the watch.
> hence only some 500 were ever produced.
> 
> That was the chronology of events behind this Imperial watch.
> And the reason the British Museum want and will receive it
> it regards.


These Smiths autos are rare and expensive watches true enough, but I've seen many of
these over the years on Ebay, there are two sitting on Ebay at this moment.
Are you sure only 500 were ever produced?


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## HOROLOGIST007

radger said:


> These Smiths autos are rare and expensive watches true enough, but I've seen many of
> these over the years on Ebay, there are two sitting on Ebay at this moment.
> Are you sure only 500 were ever produced?


Hi radger
really? 21 j Automatic made in England. 
I monitored that search ww on eBay about 2 yrs. never saw another. 
Just did a very quick search and no Imperial 'automatics' came up?
pas I stated Smiths did later make an automatic but it was a Swiss movement and not the caliber 144

can you post links to some of the ones you found.

*STOP PRESS - I searched WW again - both running listings and completed listings , I can find NO Imperial automatics only the Caliber 104 - manual wind.
This watch and my story was checked by British Museum curator and James Dowling who BOTH knew Amis and Richard Good.
*
Regards
adam


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Hi radger
> really? 21 j Automatic made in England.
> I monitored that search ww on eBay about 2 yrs. never saw another.
> Just did a very quick search and no Imperial 'automatics' came up?
> pas I stated Smiths did later make an automatic but it was a Swiss movement and not the caliber 144
> 
> can you post links to some of the ones you found.
> 
> *STOP PRESS - I searched WW again - both running listings and completed listings , I can find NO Imperial automatics only the Caliber 104 - manual wind.
> This watch and my story was checked by British Museum curator and James Dowling who BOTH knew Amis and Richard Good.
> *
> Regards
> adam


Here you are....

Smiths Everest automatic wristwatch. Solid 9 carat gold case, Made in England | eBay

The other is a movement only in completed listings but a search of the www and they don't seem as rare as you
say.

VINTAGE SMITHS EVEREST 25 JEWELS AUTOMATIC WATCH MOVEMENT | eBay


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## Chascomm

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Hi. Not sure what there is to question. What I wrote were the facts that happened between Smiths and IWC.
> IWC threatened heavy legal action, and Smiths withdrew the watch.
> hence only some 500 were ever produced.
> 
> That was the chronology of events behind this Imperial watch.
> And the reason the British Museum want and will receive it
> it regards.


Yes, I accept that. But it does seem like we're only getting part of the story. Why tackle Smiths but not other manufacturers whose designs were at least as similar as IWC's if not more so? After all, Smiths designs incorporated some possibly significant enhancements to the IWC design, unlike Timex's.

I am reminded of Fortis's action against Poljot about 10 years back. Poljot's Aviator 1 series was somewhat like a Fortis design (in common with many other makers of pilot-style watches). Somebody (not Poljot) had converted a batch of these into rather unconvincing fakes of the Fortis Cosmonaut. Fortis used this as justification to take action against Poljot over the Aviator 1 design.

The legal side of the business can be a bit strange at times.


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## HOROLOGIST007

radger said:


> Here you are....
> 
> Smiths Everest automatic wristwatch. Solid 9 carat gold case, Made in England | eBay
> 
> The other is a movement only in completed listings
> 
> VINTAGE SMITHS EVEREST 25 JEWELS AUTOMATIC WATCH MOVEMENT | eBay


These are SMITHS 'EVEREST' not the SMITHS 'IMPERIAL'
I got no idea the difference at all.

ADDED
Inspecting both movements - The one fitted to mine is 'looking' higher quality manufacture'
Regards


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> These are SMITHS 'EVEREST' not the SMITHS 'IMPERIAL'
> I got no idea the difference at all.
> 
> ADDED
> Inspecting both movements - The one fitted to mine is 'looking' higher quality manufacture'
> Regards


Well the movements are marked Smiths Imperial, they look the same to me and are the same caliber.


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## HOROLOGIST007

radger said:


> Well the movements are marked Smiths Imperial, they look the same to me and are the same caliber.


Dont know radger
Agreed same caliber number
Movements are not looking identical to me.
Nothing more I can add

As I said I am searching for a Smiths watch with dial marked Smiths Imperial like mine

Regards


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## HOROLOGIST007

Take a read here - posts 10 and 11


> Rarer than hen's teeth. Smiths finest. Go suck eggs JLC.
> 
> john


Info on this Smiths watch please


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Take a read here - posts 10 and 11
> 
> Info on this Smiths watch please


They are rare, but searching the internet there seems to be many about, Everest and Imperial variety both
using the 25 jewel movement cal 144 movement of which you say 500 only were made...it just doesn't add up.


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## HOROLOGIST007

radger said:


> They are rare, but searching the internet there seems to be many about, Everest and Imperial variety both
> using the 25 jewel movement cal 144 movement of which you say 500 only were made...it just doesn't add up.


.

Can not add any more.
Just gave the facts as I got them about 4 yrs ago.
As I said the BM - seemed to be very interested/desperate to own it, and knew the story as I related it.
The thead I linked to also pointed out they were like 'hens teeth' - why would that be if 1000s were made rather than @ maxm 1000
The moment (144 in the Everest) is not identical to the one in mine.

Regards


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> .
> 
> Can not add any more.
> Just gave the facts as I got them about 4 yrs ago.
> As I said the BM - seemed to be very interested/desperate to own it, and knew the story as I related it.
> The thead I linked to also pointed out they were like 'hens teeth' - why would that be if 1000s were made rather than @ maxm 1000
> The moment (144 in the Everest) is not identical to the one in mine.
> 
> Regards


From what I gather these Smiths 25 jewel automatic 144 cal movements were used in both Imperial and
Everest automatic watches.

Here is yet another on Ebay at this moment......
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smths-Eve...es_Watches_MensWatches_GL&hash=item461014f7e1

They are rare, but not that rare. As I said I've seen many over the years and I'll bet you could go to ebay
almost any time and find one, it just doesn't reconcile with only 500 of these movements ever made.


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## HOROLOGIST007

Yes everest but not Imperial. 
You can not find another Imperial. 
I can see differences in the movements too. 

I will look for the research I
Did prior to buying it. I recall an article explaining it, just need to find it. 

Adam


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Yes everest but not Imperial.
> You can not find another Imperial.
> I can see differences in the movements too.
> 
> I will look for the research I
> Did prior to buying it. I recall an article explaining it, just need to find it.
> 
> Adam


Adam,

I'm sorry, we appear to be going around in circles and I need to clarify your original statements
as I think there is a missunderstanding somewhere along the line.
It is important as over eleven thousand views of this thread over the years and many
more will obviously follow.

Your statement below seems to infer that what makes your Smiths Imperial watch so rare
is the English made, 25 jewel automatic Smiths movement caliber 144.



HOROLOGIST007;6440403[SIZE=5 said:


> I think this is about the rarest Smiths wristwatch you will ever see. It is *a 1963 Smiths Imperial Automatic in 9kt*. In mint condition​[/SIZE]*What makes this watch so rare ​*- well in 1959, the decision was taken by Smiths to design and create an automatic model that would compete against the best in the world.
> A small group of outstanding graduates from the National School of Horology was assembled led by a chap called Peter Amis, Richard Good was also part of the team, and charged with the creation of a self winding movement.
> This was the caliber 144, manufactured ENTIRELY in England, it was literally, the Rolls-Royce of automatics at the time. Just look at the finish on rotor and bridges! Rolex couldn't dream of making anything to this standard.
> 
> HOWEVER - All was not well. The Smiths design team basically, to put it bluntly, stole the unique winding arrangement that had been designed for IWC by the true genius engineer Albert Pellaton (his father is James Pellaton the escapement genius)
> IWC reacted on seeing the Smiths caliber, threatened serious legal action and production ceased immediately
> It would appear that only 500 or maxm 1000 pcs were ever made.
> Mine is serial 121 - It IS PROMISED to The British Museum in London.​_*There would be automatic Smiths watches later, but with SWISS NOT ENGLISH, made movements in them*_​"




It is a fact that this movement was used in both Everest and Imperial models!

Are you saying that your watch has a special variation of the caliber of which a limited edition
of 500-1000 were made?

What are the variations which makes your watch so rare if it is not the reasons you state above
in my pasted quote?

You say that yours has the serial number 121!
I think this is actualy the 'batch number', why would you think this is a serial number in a late production
cal 144?

Are you now saying that it is your particular model variation which is rare and not the movement?


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## HOROLOGIST007

Radger. 
Can you post another Imperial watch same as mine. 
Same face and same movement. The everest movement is not identical. 
If you are so concerned my original post, please request it's removal. 
But so far all you have shown
Is the Everest model. 
And not one Imperial. 

So as not to tedious or argumentative. I will not respond further until you do post links to an Imperial like mine on or recently (say 4 yrs) sold. 
I posted the facts as i 100% believe them. 
Additional links and the BM confirmed the rarity of this Imperial. 
You and others can make up their own minds. 
Adam


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## radger

HOROLOGIST007 said:


> Radger.
> Can you post another Imperial watch same as mine.
> Same face and same movement. The everest movement is not identical.
> If you are so concerned my original post, please request it's removal.
> But so far all you have shown
> Is the Everest model.
> And not one Imperial.
> 
> So as not to tedious or argumentative. I will not respond further until you do post links to an Imperial like mine on or recently (say 4 yrs) sold.
> I posted the facts as i 100% believe them.
> Additional links and the BM confirmed the rarity of this Imperial.
> You and others can make up their own minds.
> Adam


Here's a stainless steel one...

SMITHS ?Imperial Automatic? Batch No 614

Here's another....

My Grandfather'S Smith Imperial - The Watch Forum

Another...

SMITHS IMPERIAL AUTOMATIC 25 JEWELS WRISTWATCH.VINTA (04/10/2012)...

I could go on, but these are all Smiths Imperials and with the English made Smiths cal 144.
These are not identical to yours though, there seem to be a few model variations which is
not unusual from any watch manufacturer.


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## Chascomm

Some useful information about dating English Smiths watches:

Dating Vintage Watches - The Watch Forum - Page 5



> Dating of the 'English-made' Smiths watches
> 
> Unfortunately there is no published 'system' for dating Smiths watches but if the case is solid gold then it's probably best to use the hallmark date letter - this holds true throughout the production period 1947 to 1970. Beware that many Smiths watches have been re-cased and sometimes movements have been repaired with cannibalized parts so it is all a bit of a minefield. However, the following observations should help in ascertaining the date of production:-
> 
> Production started in 1947 and the early ones had just 'Smiths' on the dial. The movements were nickel not gilt, were sub-second and were marked with an engraved serial number which initially had NO PREFIX LETTER
> 
> 1948 saw the introduction of the prefix letter to the serial number - starting with A but within the year a 'B' and finally a 'C' was used.
> 
> 1952 - DeLuxe appears on the dial - movement serials still have 'C' prefix which continues sequentially until 1959. There is quite a 'spread' in the serial numbers c.f. dates suggesting that some movements and/or cases were stored for a significant time before use.
> 
> 1953 - the 17J centre second movement arrives - usually the movement serial is prefixed with a JC but the serial number is in the same sequence as the sub second range
> 
> 1958 - Shockproofing is introduced to the DeLuxe range but initially the dials do not state this. The top-of-the-range 18J was Shockproofed in 1955 as was the cheap 'pin-pallet' range.
> 
> 1958 - the 19J Imperial calibre 0104 is introduced - no serial numbers are ever used on the Imperials - just the calibre and batch number - sometimes. Imperials are always shockproof.
> 
> 1959 - DeLuxe dials now marked 'SHOCKPROOF'
> 
> 1959/60 - DeLuxe movements are no longer serial numbered - just the batch number is used. The last serial number is ~C46xxxx
> 
> 1959 - The Astral is introduced - no serial numbers are used on Astral movements - just the batch number. Astrals are always shockproof.
> 
> 1961 - The 25J Automatic movement (based on the Imperial) is introduced
> 
> 1960 to1962 - Imperial, DeLuxe and Astral continue with just batch numbers on movements and are difficult to date at this point.
> 
> 1963 - Some DeLuxe and all Imperial models are rebranded as EVEREST. Rebranded Imperials have a calibre number 0104E or 10104E. Astral range stays as it was. The 25J Automatic calibre number is 10144G.
> 
> 1964 - Astral dial script is changed to 'SMITHS ASTRAL' in line. Previously the 'Astral' was printed in italics below the name 'Smiths'.
> 
> 1964 - The old 27CS 17J centre second movement is modified to become a 'slimline' movement in line with the then current trend for slim watches. This slimline movement becomes THE standard for all the centre second models.
> 
> 1965 - The calibre number is introduced to all watches - stamped next to the balance.
> 60461E is the 15J sub second
> 60464E is the slimline 17J centre second
> 60465E is the slimline 17J centre second with calendar
> 1967 - 60466E (slimline 17J centre second with hacking) is introduced. Smiths GS4701 Military Watches appear and use this movement
> 
> 1968 - 60474E (slimline 17J centre second with calendar - maybe hacking as well) is introduced for the CM4501 Astral Diver. The 60467E (calendar) is also introduced but I don't know the difference between this and the earlier 60465E calendar. The 60471E 16J sub second is introduced
> 
> If you use the hallmark date letter from gold cased DeLuxe watches as the dating medium, it is possible to get some idea of the serial numbering sequence (please bear in mind that there is sometimes a significant overlap as watch movements and cases were stored before use) - anyway it goes something like this:-
> 
> Pre 1948 - no prefix letter used with serial number
> 1948 - A, B and C prefix used.
> 
> Year serial number
> 1947/48 C794
> 1948/49 C32208
> 1950/51 C53225
> 1951/52 C106845
> 1952/53 C143852
> 1953/54
> 1954/55 C204851
> 1955/56 C253061
> 1956/57 C340318
> 1957/58 C356042
> 1958/59 C408323
> 1959/60 C445920
> 
> This is just a 'first attempt' at dating Smiths and hopefully as more information becomes available it will become more accurate


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## Chascomm

Also this:
Dating Smiths Watches - The Watch Forum

which includes the following:



> There's no mention of the 25J Automatics before 1961. Initially they were named Imperial as the 25J automatic movement was basically a 19J manual Imperial with an IWC design auto module bolted on to it. The Imperial name was dropped in 1963 and both the automatics and manuals were re-badged as Everest - the auto was still in production as an Everest in 1968. Smiths ceased making their own movements in 1970. I have seen no information on production numbers but their rarity now suggests that they were never as plentiful as the manual version. A 9kt gold automatic was nearly £50 in 1964 and quite a premium over say a 9kt Deluxe which retailed at less than £20. The average worker would have earned about £9 a week then so a gold auto was a good 6 weeks pay - equivalent to about £3K now. It was quite a watch then and further evidence that Smiths didn't produce cheap rubbish from their Cheltenham factory.


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## Ric Capucho

Ok, so both my Smiffs GBs're back from the watch fettler in far better shape than they were in when I first got 'em.

All according to the good book:

The Crosshairs one at the front's the snappily named WM 2205/B from the 1968 range. I'm 99% sure it *is* gold-plated aluminium; at least according to the Capucho magnet test performed just before I handed it over to me tame watchmender (don't try this at home). The movement inside's a 7 jewel Streamline, so it all fits. In fact the movement was the problem that made me take it to the menders 'cos the securing screws were missing so it made a rather disconcerting click click on winding as the entire movement moved about. Eek.

Oh, and some bloody idiot had held a magnet to it...

Now I *know* it's a good looking beast (those crosshairs on the silver dial, and all) and at about 34mm it's not *too* small for polite company. But the problem's that the bloody thing's so light that it feels tinny. On a windy day I'd have to put a brick on it. On a calm day I might put a brick through it for fun.

Not really for me; but I'll keep it awhile for reference. Maybe the British Museum wants it (cough).

The one behind's actually a bit bigger; maybe 35mm or a smudge under. The champagne dial's even more retro, but then again it's from the 1964 Cambrian Range (this is the Pembroke model, don'tcha know) and has the 21 jewel TY movement which is about as good as any movement that ever went into a Smiffs GB watch. It even has a *date* window with a proper shortcut, Egads! Very racy for its time. But then again anything coming out of 1964 is a guaranteed vintage, that being my birth year. The lug size surprised me 'cos it's 18mm (the newer Smiff's got 16mm lugs) which is a bonus.

Oh, and it feels much more substantial and better built that t'other. Partly down to weight, and partly down to everything's else.

Much more my thing.

Shall await the arrival of the even earlier (I think 1953) Smiths Made in England De Luxe wot is swimming across the Channel as I type and only then decide which is the quintessentially English watch for a gentleman to wear (well, some arse from Manchester, anyway).

Ric


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## Ric Capucho

Hi All,

So my Smiths de Luxe arrived from Blighty, and I must say it's a completely different beast from the riff-raff Smiffs of Great Britain fare.

The gold-plate remains thick and, erm, golden. The dial is almost perfect considering it's a sixty year old watch. Sixty! According to my Smiths book, those pagoda lugs make it a 1953 model. Everest had only just been climbed. And that's definitely a Calibre 400 movement in there, which incidentally took my breath away when I opened it up. Very very lovely indeed. Dunno whether that serial number pins down a particular year, but nowt useful in the book on the matter.

The watch is a wee beastie to modern eyes at just 31mm, but just look at that racy dial. Those markers! And centre seconds too! Gosh, teacups must have been dropped in the half the parlours of England.

I love it.

Ric


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## novaa77

A few pictures of my sub second Smiths Deluxe manual wind in 9k(?) solid gold.


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## Ric Capucho

novaa77 said:


> A few pictures of my sub second Smiths Deluxe manual wind in 9k(?) solid gold.
> 
> View attachment 1153359
> 
> 
> View attachment 1153364
> 
> 
> View attachment 1153362


Very very nice.

Ric


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## bspargo

All these vintage Smiths look great. I got one at the moment, just got to get around to replacing the mainspring. I just saw on the affordable watches forum a big discussion about Smiths, with photos, good read. But I was slightly disgusted to see that the brand has been 'reinvented' by an online company, and the new 'everest' looks like a rolex explorer rip-off. So wrong, i mean where do I start! Sigh!


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## aditya

*My only Smiths*

Not a watch, but nice nevertheless...










You can read more about this clock here

A Watchmaker's Diary: Smiths Mantle Clock


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## Jigga4040

...my Smiths Astral calibre 27.CS 17 Jewels...


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