# Grand Seiko discounts and "seasonal" offerings lifespan?



## covfefewithsugar

I've done a lot of research for my first really nice watch and I think it's going to be a Grand Seiko. I'm gravitating towards either a quartz or a spring drive, specifically the SBGA415 "winter," SBGA211 "snowflake," SBGA373, SBGP007, and SBGA413 "spring." Trying to avoid a mechanical movement and black dial since I'd like an Explorer I down the road, and I just like the lighter GS dials and accurate movements.

I went to the only GS AD in Georgia to look at the aforementioned models. Although the snowflake was beautiful, it was really big. They did not have a 373 or 413, but they did have the 415. The 415 was also beautiful, but it was more grey in person than in pictures, and I'm not sure if that's a plus or a minus.

After a lot of time and talking about watches, I asked about discounting Grand Seikos (GS in general, not any seasonal or limited edition) and was squarely told no. Apparently it's guidance from Grand Seiko that they are not to discount anything as it cheapens the brand. This sucked to hear as I don't buy new cars that take a big depreciation hit right off the lot, and in the same spirit, I didn't want to buy a quartz or common spring drive model at full price just to lose significant value out the door. This kind of limits my practical options to the 413 or 415 as I think they will hold value better than something common or quartz like the SBGP007. I could buy second hand, and I might, but I was hoping to build some history with this AD for an Explorer I a few years down the road. I was also offered to have the 413 shipped in to look at, which I may take up later.

Anyway, what kind of discounts are you guys getting on Grand Seikos and how long do you think the seasonal 413 and 415 will last? I already see the 413 and 415 going for more money at non-ADs like DavidSW. I'd hate to want it later, see it discontinued, and then only have the option of paying through the nose on the grey market.


----------



## Warong

I managed to get a little off on my snowflake, it was basically the sales tax so I got it shipped to me all in for the MSRP. I tried a couple other dealers and they wouldn't even work with me to make a sale. Understandable since the snowflake model is the most popular, I couldn't see getting huge cut off of the retail price. Happy overall, good service. I think depending on the model of the watch you should be able to get something off. I would recommend checking around to other retailers (think outside of your local area), depending on the market they may be more inclined to work with you.


----------



## jkpa

I suggest @robattopper

Spectacular service, always.

Yes, GS are cracking down on discounts but maybe you have a trade in, etc. It's always worth an email or call to Rob to see what the deal is.

You certainly won't find better service anywhere in my experience.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Warong said:


> I managed to get a little off on my snowflake, it was basically the sales tax so I got it shipped to me all in for the MSRP. I tried a couple other dealers and they wouldn't even work with me to make a sale. Understandable since the snowflake model is the most popular, I couldn't see getting huge cut off of the retail price. Happy overall, good service. I think depending on the model of the watch you should be able to get something off. I would recommend checking around to other retailers (think outside of your local area), depending on the market they may be more inclined to work with you.


Thanks for your experience. If I get really serious, I will be sure to call around. I was hoping to buy locally in case I still want the Explorer I down the road, but I'm not going to leave a lot on the table to do that. I would've been very pleased had they offered me 7% off to cover sales tax.



jkpa said:


> I suggest @robattopper
> 
> Spectacular service, always.
> 
> Yes, GS are cracking down on discounts but maybe you have a trade in, etc. It's always worth an email or call to Rob to see what the deal is.
> 
> You certainly won't find better service anywhere in my experience.


Thank you for the recommendation. Looking on the website, he doesn't even charge sales tax to my ZIP. That's a much sweeter deal.


----------



## clerkpalmer

Just an observation but a lot of grand seikos show up here and Reddit in new condition with pretty large discounts which kill resale. Not sure how these watches get out on the market. I was able to secure a small discount from an AD only to find the same watch listed here BNIB for a much more significant discount.


----------



## Watch19

If your local AD won't budge on a GS, they'll certainly be even less cooperative on that Explorer.


----------



## Rolexplorer

The 413 / 415 are the ONLY reason I would pay full list for a GS.
I would not buy any other GS without a discount.
Not for "value" reasons, but only because the 413 / 415 are the only ones I like enough to consider purchasing.
Still mulling these two over in my mind . . .


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Rolexplorer said:


> The 413 / 415 are the ONLY reason I would pay full list for a GS.
> I would not buy any other GS without a discount.
> Not for "value" reasons, but only because the 413 / 415 are the only ones I like enough to consider purchasing.
> Still mulling these two over in my mind . . .


I'm sympathetic to that. Have you seen the two in person? As I said in my original post, the 415 was more grey and less white than in pics, whereas I've read the 413 is more white and less pink than in pics. I'd like to see the 413 in person since the pictures are so deceiving...


Watch19 said:


> If your local AD won't budge on a GS, they'll certainly be even less cooperative on that Explorer.


Well, I don't expect a discount on an Explorer. They had no watches in the Rolex display case whereas the GS display was the biggest at, I would guess, 50-100 watches. To not discount any of them, including the quartz models, was surprising. They even put plastic wrap on them (which ruined the look of the more intricate dials, but could be removed by request) because "they are handled so much and we don't want them scratched." Seems like they could inspire a little more buying and a little less scratching if they got a closer to market value.


----------



## wrxdev

Is this Mayors at Avalon? They stopped discounting GS and you are better off searching for one on the grey market via WatchRecon. Unlike Rolex, most non LE GS models do take a hit from the MSRP.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

wrxdev said:


> Is this Mayors at Avalon? They stopped discounting GS and you are better off searching for one on the grey market via WatchRecon. Unlike Rolex, most non LE GS models do take a hit from the MSRP.


Yep. When did they stop discounting? The saleswoman rationalized it by saying they are the only AD in the state, which seems silly considering Fedex exists.


----------



## wrxdev

Since late last year when I asked about their spring drive SBGE257. Topper in SF and Timeless in Dallas are always the ADs recommended by folks on this forum for competitive pricing.


----------



## egwatchfan

It’s very possible to get discounts on GS….. I wouldn’t settle for only a small discount (let alone no discount) if the price makes a difference to you.


----------



## ts298

I shopped around (including dealers favored here) and it’s true, no discounts. Ultimately it will end up with GS holding better value, but it’s difficult to swallow when you’ve gotten discounts on the past or buying a model someone else received a big discount on.


----------



## dealta66

covfefewithsugar said:


> I'm sympathetic to that. Have you seen the two in person? As I said in my original post, the 415 was more grey and less white than in pics, whereas I've read the 413 is more white and less pink than in pics. I'd like to see the 413 in person since the pictures are so deceiving...
> 
> Well, I don't expect a discount on an Explorer. They had no watches in the Rolex display case whereas the GS display was the biggest at, I would guess, 50-100 watches. To not discount any of them, including the quartz models, was surprising. They even put plastic wrap on them (which ruined the look of the more intricate dials, but could be removed by request) because "they are handled so much and we don't want them scratched." Seems like they could inspire a little more buying and a little less scratching if they got a closer to market value.






I found this to be the most accurate vid to see the 413/415 in normal day to day lighting. The 415 is def more grey which is a plus if you care about contrast between the indexes and the dial as the 415 the indexes and dial kinda blend together being that brighter metallic dial.


----------



## sticky

I managed to get 10% off my Snowflake and 15% off my 231 diver but I’m a frequent flyer with the AD and they look after me. Perceived wisdom is that discounts on GS are not common.


----------



## Nokie

I have only seen a handful of discount offerings for GS watches in all the years I have been collecting.

Not that common to see, as Sticky pointed out......


----------



## MickCollins1916

I've never seen a blanket discount offer for the brand you're discussing, but wouldn't it be gauche to discuss discounts received from particular ADs on individual pieces?

Bottom line, I suspect the issue under discussion is case-by-case and relationship-based. Enjoying this guy today, which I picked up BNIB, and not at retail.


----------



## Stark1

You can probably squeeze in a bit of a discount on a Snowflake (I did), but really low or no chance in getting a discount on 413 or 415. The latter two models are in high demand and there's really no reason why an AD would offer discounts if they have a hard time keeping them stocked.

That said, I frequently see the 415 go for about 1k less in the used market, so that's definitely a direction you can take. The Snowflake as well. Just work with someone reputable, as others have mentioned above.

Like any GS model, I'd definitely view in person before deciding between them and committing to a purchase. I also found 415 to be more grey than the buttery yellow sometimes seen through photos. Similarly, 413 does look more white in most lighting conditions and less pink than promo ads. As an owner of 413, I still love it and find it fun to try capturing the dial under the perfect angle and lighting condition. It's more "dynamic" than any other watch I own.


----------



## Pun

Stark1 said:


> You can probably squeeze in a bit of a discount on a Snowflake (I did), but really low or no chance in getting a discount on 413 or 415. The latter two models are in high demand and there's really no reason why an AD would offer discounts if they have a hard time keeping them stocked.
> 
> That said, I frequently see the 415 go for about 1k less in the used market, so that's definitely a direction you can take. The Snowflake as well. Just work with someone reputable, as others have mentioned above.
> 
> Like any GS model, I'd definitely view in person before deciding between them and committing to a purchase. I also found 415 to be more grey than the buttery yellow sometimes seen through photos. Similarly, 413 does look more white in most lighting conditions and less pink than promo ads. As an owner of 413, I still love it and find it fun to try capturing the dial under the perfect angle and lighting condition. It's more "dynamic" than any other watch I own.


Few obligatory wrist shots please...
I'm trying to source one through the brand, therefore, I'll be buying without seeing it in person.


----------



## Jabar Braverman

ts298 said:


> I shopped around (including dealers favored here) and it's true, no discounts. Ultimately it will end up with GS holding better value, but it's difficult to swallow when you've gotten discounts on the past or buying a model someone else received a big discount on.


Yep, my AD told me the same thing when I bought my last GS a year ago. A couple of years earlier they gave me a discount when and I bought my Snowflake, so I know they do it. They told me the same thing as the OP, adding that this was a new policy, and that they thought GS didn't want their dealers undermining the prices available at GS boutiques (even though the nearest boutique to this AD is almost 400 mi. away). I'm actually glad to hear that other ADs are doing the same thing, because it means I can trust what mine says. 

I know watch discounts are common at retail, but I can't really complain about a failure to discount. I own my own service business, and I flatly refuse all requests for discounts. I set my prices with intention: it costs what it costs for a reason, and if I give everyone a discount I won't make a profit. Can't fault GS for having the same policy.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Jabar Braverman said:


> I'm actually glad to hear that other ADs are doing the same thing, because it means I can trust what mine says.
> 
> I know watch discounts are common at retail, but I can't really complain about a failure to discount. I own my own service business, and I flatly refuse all requests for discounts. I set my prices with intention: it costs what it costs for a reason, and if I give everyone a discount I won't make a profit. Can't fault GS for having the same policy.


Even though this change is happening at exactly the wrong time for me, I do agree with the policy. Discounts DO cheapen a brand in my opinion, and it's easily rectified by setting prices near what they would discount to anyway. Apparently GS feels confident in their prices now that people are spending like crazy post-covid. They should, however, allow ADs to discount enough to offset sales tax. 8% on a $6300 watch is $500, and it's something an AD has no control over that can cost them a sale.


----------



## GSNewbie

That with the estates is a difficult topic and in other forums in Germany forbidden to discuss.
This is especially true for watches from Geneva😉with the crown.
Personally, I see basically no reason to buy at MRSP and will not do so in the future, no matter what brand of watch. Does anyone here really believe that the prices are calculated🤔😂
It has also been possible to buy watches in the boutique at a discount. Certainly not in the amount as at the dealer but still.
The people who buy watches should be aware that watches are a luxury item and therefore not really brought to life, with this attitude it should also be possible to get appropriate discounts, you just have to be able to wait.


----------



## Stark1

Pun said:


> Few obligatory wrist shots please...
> I'm trying to source one through the brand, therefore, I'll be buying without seeing it in person.


I have a few nice shots on my Instagram account. Check out stradivarest. I've always been self conscious about posting pics of my own watches on there, but the 413 broke the barrier for me. It's just too nice not to share...

FWIW, the photos posted there are a bit more pink than most moments during daily wear. The dial is color and visible texture is hyper sensitive to your surroundings, thus creating a really interesting wearing experience and connection. It feels to me like it's constantly evolving.


----------



## Stark1

GSNewbie said:


> That with the estates is a difficult topic and in other forums in Germany forbidden to discuss.
> This is especially true for watches from Geneva?with the crown.
> Personally, I see basically no reason to buy at MRSP and will not do so in the future, no matter what brand of watch. Does anyone here really believe that the prices are calculated??
> It has also been possible to buy watches in the boutique at a discount. Certainly not in the amount as at the dealer but still.
> The people who buy watches should be aware that watches are a luxury item and therefore not really brought to life, with this attitude it should also be possible to get appropriate discounts, you just have to be able to wait.


Trust me, I hate going the pay MSRP route too. I'm with you there. However, when it comes down to hard facts sometimes, in particular hard to get models, it's worth paying up. Otherwise, it's either unobtainable, or patience plays a large factor and the amount you save in the end could be negligible. Again, I'm speaking to only certain hard-to-get pieces here. I've bought several awesome pieces pre-owned at extremely attractive prices and they've been some of my best purchases to date.

At the end of the day, you go the route that feels most comfortable and right to you. For me, I understood that I'm a practical guy, and waiting for a small discount on 413 did not seem practical.


----------



## GSNewbie

These are probably personal preferences, which is fine.
However, it seems to me that in the last 1-2 years the hunt for the best investment, i.e. buying cheap and selling expensive, has also dominated the watch market.
Most often, the MRSP sell works with limited editions, unless it is Rolex, AP or PP.
In my opinion, the decisive factor here is that the customer believes to have a particularly rare piece and the desirability, one is supposed to believe, is very high.
But driven, as with all other things that are rare, by greed and the thought of owning something that is supposedly rare and therefore particularly valuable.
A question is now, one should run after these whole lemmings, or one makes his own thing.
After all, you don't take any damage, at least not economically, if you don't buy.
But if you absolutely want to buy a certain model watch, of course, then you are also willing to pay more, perhaps even above the MRSP. Often, however, the speculative thought is out of the scope in this case.
Basically, however, all this has little to do with the initial question, topic.
Because here it is about the fact that it is now to be accepted as acceptable by the customers that one may buy to the MRSP.
Embarrassingly enough, that works for many buyers of Rolex watches. I feel sorry for these poor people.


----------



## egwatchfan

I will reiterate…. I have first and second hand knowledge of meaningful discounts being easily obtained for GS. Though I will say this was most recently more than a year ago so I suppose it may be different now post covid (though this really surprises me).
Good luck to everyone currently looking.


----------



## GSNewbie

The fact that after COVID prices are supposed to increase and availability and thus the supposed desirability of a brand is supposed to have risen cannot come as a surprise.
I have the feeling that a kind of Titanic feeling is spreading, as people look at the secondary market and are shocked to find that many models are no longer immediately available. Now, interestingly, these people assume that the desirability has also increased, the demand is enormous and since supposedly little is produced, the price must consequently rise, or at least remain stable.
The manufacturer recognizes this because it knows the market mechanisms better than many individual market participants and can therefore proceed in a coordinated manner.
This then also leads to the fact that one now tries, of course many manufacturers from this area, to push through their MRSP prices.
This works as long as the "herd" does not see through the game and cannot wait.


----------



## Pun

Stark1 said:


> I have a few nice shots on my Instagram account. Check out stradivarest. I've always been self conscious about posting pics of my own watches on there, but the 413 broke the barrier for me. It's just too nice not to share...
> 
> FWIW, the photos posted there are a bit more pink than most moments during daily wear. The dial is color and visible texture is hyper sensitive to your surroundings, thus creating a really interesting wearing experience and connection. It feels to me like it's constantly evolving.


They are great shots. What camera you use, if I may ask? Regards Pun


----------



## egwatchfan

GSNewbie said:


> The fact that after COVID prices are supposed to increase and availability and thus the supposed desirability of a brand is supposed to have risen cannot come as a surprise.


why would prices post covid be higher than prices a year or two pre Covid? And why would availability having risen lead to higher prices? If anything, more availability would lead to lower prices I would think.


----------



## Stark1

Pun said:


> They are great shots. What camera you use, if I may ask? Regards Pun


You'd be surprised. My iPhone 10! The flowers I come by cast a beautiful reflection on the dial, which is how I'm getting these great shots.
Haven't upgraded since I've been locked down from Covid.


----------



## GSNewbie

@egwatchfan
What higher availability?
I wrote about supposedly low availability due to low production capacities.
See now what you mean. The sentence was not quite finished, just from the road😉
Of course, it should say that the supposed desirability increased and thus the availability decreased, although this is not due to demand at a low level, but due to downgraded capacities in production.
Should now be coherent😉
But the question of why prices are now higher, or will rise, should be clear.


----------



## Pun

Stark1 said:


> You'd be surprised. My iPhone 10! The flowers I come by cast a beautiful reflection on the dial, which is how I'm getting these great shots.
> Haven't upgraded since I've been locked down from Covid.


Lovely. It's well said that person behind lense is more important than the device!

I went through the Instagram page and was very pleased to see your photography. Thanks for sharing. Regards


----------



## egwatchfan

GSNewbie said:


> @egwatchfan
> What higher availability?
> I wrote about supposedly low availability due to low production capacities.
> See now what you mean. The sentence was not quite finished, just from the road?
> Of course, it should say that the supposed desirability increased and thus the availability decreased, although this is not due to demand at a low level, but due to downgraded capacities in production.
> Should now be coherent?
> But the question of why prices are now higher, or will rise, should be clear.


Ah ok I follow what you are saying now. I would then think that while prices might remain high in the near term they would return to previous lower levels once GS post-pandemic production is able to catch up with demand. Unless GS were to decide to intentionally not meet the level of demand like some other brands out there&#8230;

would you agree?


----------



## GSNewbie

You might think so. But there are other theories as well. After all, who says that luxury - this also applies to GS, of course - has to be affordable, or even that everyone should be able to experience it with discounts?
I think people are at least trying to take advantage of the situation in the industry to level off at a higher level.
Certainly, GS already has lower capacities than Rolex, for example. The production is also different.
The demand for luxury, as questionable as it is, has just increased massively during the pandemic.
Manufacturers are sensing morning air and the future will show whether this new orientation of the various watch manufacturers is crowned with success.
Unfortunately, I fear that it will.
As a manufacturer of luxury goods, you are not well advised to try to meet demand, regardless of whether you have the capacity to do so or not.
Of course, GS will ramp up their production again, but the increased worldwide demand for luxury, possibly also for GS watches, may not be satisfied.
Which may lead to higher prices and lower discounts in the long run.
LE's can incidentally also ensure that the desirability of a brand and acceptance as a luxury brand with appropriate positioning in the market increases.


----------



## cheu_f50

If you want watches to better retain value, support the move to pay full price and no discounts.

The bigger the discount, the less value the watch will hold.


----------



## GSNewbie

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm this thesis.


----------



## clerkpalmer

AD policy or not, with the exception of the LEs, most grand seikos pop up here, Reddit and Rolex forums for substantial discounts. A lot of them come with full warranties. How do these watches get out to the market? If GS really wanted to control pricing, wouldn’t they stop letting them out to grey market sellers?


----------



## TraserH3

clerkpalmer said:


> AD policy or not, with the exception of the LEs, most grand seikos pop up here, Reddit and Rolex forums for substantial discounts. A lot of them come with full warranties. How do these watches get out to the market? If GS really wanted to control pricing, wouldn't they stop letting them out to grey market sellers?


Are you seeing actually new watches from grey dealers or just "new" watches that individual buyers are selling?
I didn't know GS had a grey market of new watches?

But on secondary market (not grey) most non-LE cannot be sold by individual without a huge hit to the MSRP. Thew demand is just not there. Or put another way, the MSRP is not in sync with the demand, in the opposite way Rolex MSRPs are not in sync with the demand.


----------



## palletwheel

This has become an issue in the US. It's a bunch of BS. In Asia there are discounts to be had. If or when you travel you can buy in person, or you can import from Japan. The usual high quality Japanese suspects still can export to the US, and Seiko so far hasn't stopped them as they are the ones who built the US market to begin with. Only thing you can't get are US market exclusives or the hot LEs. Only caveat is they will most likely come with a Japan only guarantee, not an international one. Which is ok in my book as I'd rather have any guarantee service done in Japan vs New Jersey anyway. I went that route and was, like everyone who had gone before, quite happy.


----------



## palletwheel

cheu_f50 said:


> If you want watches to better retain value, support the move to pay full price and no discounts.
> 
> The bigger the discount, the less value the watch will hold.


It's important to realize that you'll be lucky to get 20 cents on the dollar on any jewelry you sell. If no one sees any intrinsic possibilities with the piece then the best you can do is reclamation cost. The same applies to watches other than Rolex, Patek, VC and maybe AP, except watches have no reclamation cost. GS are not currently collectible and in truth I don't see GS doing anything to change that, the endless colorway changes not withstanding. I personally like some of them, own one, think every collector should have at least just one, but I think the inflated prices of late are going to kill them. They are not competitive anymore, and there are lots of brands to buy instead.


----------



## Sparrowhawk

cheu_f50 said:


> If you want watches to better retain value, support the move to pay full price and no discounts.
> 
> The bigger the discount, the less value the watch will hold.


I have no problem at all with you and others paying full retail to bolster up the value of the GS brand.


----------



## cheu_f50

palletwheel said:


> It's important to realize that you'll be lucky to get 20 cents on the dollar on any jewelry you sell. If no one sees any intrinsic possibilities with the piece then the best you can do is reclamation cost. The same applies to watches other than Rolex, Patek, VC and maybe AP, except watches have no reclamation cost. GS are not currently collectible and in truth I don't see GS doing anything to change that, the endless colorway changes not withstanding. I personally like some of them, own one, think every collector should have at least just one, but I think the inflated prices of late are going to kill them. They are not competitive anymore, and there are lots of brands to buy instead.


And with discounts up front, you devalue things even more because "no one pays retail". It's not even a deal if everyone gets a discount. It's just a sales tactic where they make you feel good.


----------



## Gravyboat6969

covfefewithsugar said:


> I've done a lot of research for my first really nice watch and I think it's going to be a Grand Seiko. I'm gravitating towards either a quartz or a spring drive, specifically the SBGA415 "winter," SBGA211 "snowflake," SBGA373, SBGP007, and SBGA413 "spring." Trying to avoid a mechanical movement and black dial since I'd like an Explorer I down the road, and I just like the lighter GS dials and accurate movements.
> 
> I went to the only GS AD in Georgia to look at the aforementioned models. Although the snowflake was beautiful, it was really big. They did not have a 373 or 413, but they did have the 415. The 415 was also beautiful, but it was more grey in person than in pictures, and I'm not sure if that's a plus or a minus.
> 
> After a lot of time and talking about watches, I asked about discounting Grand Seikos (GS in general, not any seasonal or limited edition) and was squarely told no. Apparently it's guidance from Grand Seiko that they are not to discount anything as it cheapens the brand. This sucked to hear as I don't buy new cars that take a big depreciation hit right off the lot, and in the same spirit, I didn't want to buy a quartz or common spring drive model at full price just to lose significant value out the door. This kind of limits my practical options to the 413 or 415 as I think they will hold value better than something common or quartz like the SBGP007. I could buy second hand, and I might, but I was hoping to build some history with this AD for an Explorer I a few years down the road. I was also offered to have the 413 shipped in to look at, which I may take up later.
> 
> Anyway, what kind of discounts are you guys getting on Grand Seikos and how long do you think the seasonal 413 and 415 will last? I already see the 413 and 415 going for more money at non-ADs like DavidSW. I'd hate to want it later, see it discontinued, and then only have the option of paying through the nose on the grey market.


I got 500 off my Snowflake 3 years ago, and 1000 off my sbgh71 summer last October


----------



## GSNewbie

In a German forum, someone from Austria is selling his SBGA211 aka Snowflake at a discount of 23.3%.
I assume that he also earns something from it.
But discount is nothing self-evident, but should be negotiated individually.
No discount, no purchase. 
Should do the same with Rolex!


----------



## KILOFINAL7

with the mindset of some on this forum, don't ask for a discount when making any purchase, pay the MSRP.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Helpful thread on the state of GS discounts, thanks guys. I've found some excellent used pieces, but now I realize the price is not what's holding me back. I'm starting to find that I love many of the pieces for their finish and design, but they might be too dressy (but also very thick) and almost certainly too scratch-prone for daily wear. To me, something like the Rolex Explorer does not get its value from being exceptionally pretty, so I would scratch it and move on. On the contrary, something like the SBGA415 does get value from exquisite polishing and titanium, so I might cringe if I were to scratch it. I really love many of the models, but I don't know if they are a good purchase for me. I hate to be looking away from GS and towards the Explorer for essentially being "less" watch for more money :l


----------



## MickCollins1916

covfefewithsugar said:


> Helpful thread on the state of GS discounts, thanks guys. I've found some excellent used pieces, but now I realize the price is not what's holding me back. I'm starting to find that I love many of the pieces for their finish and design, but they might be too dressy (but also very thick) and almost certainly too scratch-prone for daily wear. To me, something like the Rolex Explorer does not get its value from being exceptionally pretty, so I would scratch it and move on. On the contrary, something like the SBGA415 does get value from exquisite polishing and titanium, so I might cringe if I were to scratch it. I really love many of the models, but I don't know if they are a good purchase for me. I hate to be looking away from GS and towards the Explorer for essentially being "less" watch for more money :l


There are a few GS options with less shiny parts than others. The 231 is a great option - big on paper, but solidly low-key on the wrist and wears smaller than its measurements.





































Explorer's a great option, price notwithstanding. My polished bezel has nearly 5 years of scratches on it and I still enjoy the hell out of it. Bracelet us all brushed tho, which is a plus.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

MickCollins1916 said:


> There are a few GS options with less shiny parts than others. The 231 is a great option - big on paper, but solidly low-key on the wrist and wears smaller than its measurements.
> 
> Explorer's a great option, price notwithstanding. My polished bezel has nearly 5 years of scratches on it and I still enjoy the hell out of it. Bracelet us all brushed tho, which is a plus.


Lovely pics! I'm not really looking for a diver, but I do find it miraculous that GS can make a 14mm diver when their Hi Beat GMTs are just as thick. I guessed the 231 would be at least 16mm!


----------



## MickCollins1916

covfefewithsugar said:


> Lovely pics! I'm not really looking for a diver, but I do find it miraculous that GS can make a 14mm diver when their Hi Beat GMTs are just as thick. I guessed the 231 would be at least 16mm!


Thanks 

I have the SBGJ201 GMT, which is 14mm thick, and the SBGN005, which is about 12mm. The 231 is the most deceptively thin 14mm of my divers, if that makes any sense and FWIW. The way the case is cut and the caseback sits, plus the titanium&#8230;I hardly notice it.

I wish GS made more thin watches, for sure, but they hide the case height better than some other brands with similar size cases.


----------



## egwatchfan

MickCollins1916 said:


> There are a few GS options with less shiny parts than others. The 231 is a great option - big on paper, but solidly low-key on the wrist and wears smaller than its measurements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Explorer's a great option, price notwithstanding. My polished bezel has nearly 5 years of scratches on it and I still enjoy the hell out of it. Bracelet us all brushed tho, which is a plus.


Ha you sure HAVE worn that explorer!! Great to see you putting it to good use.


----------



## MickCollins1916

egwatchfan said:


> Ha you sure HAVE worn that explorer!! Great to see you putting it to good use.


Ha I wear and enjoy them and recommend others do the same! The bezel on my explorer would drive an OCD person up the wall. 

Looks beautiful to me.


----------



## Stark1

covfefewithsugar said:


> Helpful thread on the state of GS discounts, thanks guys. I've found some excellent used pieces, but now I realize the price is not what's holding me back. I'm starting to find that I love many of the pieces for their finish and design, but they might be too dressy (but also very thick) and almost certainly too scratch-prone for daily wear. To me, something like the Rolex Explorer does not get its value from being exceptionally pretty, so I would scratch it and move on. On the contrary, something like the SBGA415 does get value from exquisite polishing and titanium, so I might cringe if I were to scratch it. I really love many of the models, but I don't know if they are a good purchase for me. I hate to be looking away from GS and towards the Explorer for essentially being "less" watch for more money :l


Watches are made to be worn. Unless you work on a construction site, I wouldn't worry about wearing a GS watch anywhere; the titanium takes the wear and tear just fine. The first scratch might hurt emotionally, but you get over it quickly.
On the thickness, I find the hi-beat models meaningfully taller than most spring drive movement models. I have a pretty small wrist and find the SBGA415 wears exceptionally well. about 2mm is attributed to the domed sapphire crystal, so the on paper measurement is fairly misleading. But as mentioned previously in this thread, you really do need to try these watches on in person and should not make decisions sight unseen.

EDIT: Also worth noting that the US seasons pieces do not have bezels whatsoever. So if you're worried about the OCD scratch thing on the bezel, it's a moot point.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Stark1 said:


> Watches are made to be worn. Unless you work on a construction site, I wouldn't worry about wearing a GS watch anywhere; the titanium takes the wear and tear just fine. The first scratch might hurt emotionally, but you get over it quickly.
> On the thickness, I find the hi-beat models meaningfully taller than most spring drive movement models. I have a pretty small wrist and find the SBGA415 wears exceptionally well. about 2mm is attributed to the domed sapphire crystal, so the on paper measurement is fairly misleading. But as mentioned previously in this thread, you really do need to try these watches on in person and should not make decisions sight unseen.
> 
> EDIT: Also worth noting that the US seasons pieces do not have bezels whatsoever. So if you're worried about the OCD scratch thing on the bezel, it's a moot point.


I would buy one used both to get a better price and also not to put the first scratch on it. Do you have a 415? I'd like to hear testimonials regarding its resistance to scratches. Scratches are fine, but I don't want it looking like sh*t. I did see a 415 in person and liked everything about it. If it were steel like the Autumn and Summer editions, I probably would've bought one by now.


----------



## palletwheel

cheu_f50 said:


> And with discounts up front, you devalue things even more because "no one pays retail". It's not even a deal if everyone gets a discount. It's just a sales tactic where they make you feel good.


In the jewelry business what you paid at retail is irrelevant to secondary market prices. All that matters is market demand and if there isn't any that means if you buy at MSRP then you lose more, assuming you can even sell it. As for discounts as sales tactic, don't knock it, since some people are less adept than others at negotiating, and some people don't even know to ask.

I would also add that if you know how to figure out production costs for watches, you'd be appalled at the multiples to retail the industry is asking now. After around 2005 the Swiss went nuts to the point of going 200% over inflation. GS just followed Japanese inflation so after 2005 the price structure went out of wack relative to the Swiss, so when they went global, well here we are. You can use the plus9 GS price database and the minus4plus6 Rolex price database, and some old Omega prices to figure it all out.


----------



## cheu_f50

palletwheel said:


> In the jewelry business what you paid at retail is irrelevant to secondary market prices. All that matters is market demand and if there isn't any that means if you buy at MSRP then you lose more, assuming you can even sell it. As for discounts as sales tactic, don't knock it, since some people are less adept than others at negotiating, and some people don't even know to ask.
> 
> I would also add that if you know how to figure out production costs for watches, you'd be appalled at the multiples to retail the industry is asking now. After around 2005 the Swiss went nuts to the point of going 200% over inflation. GS just followed Japanese inflation so after 2005 the price structure went out of wack relative to the Swiss, so when they went global, well here we are. You can use the plus9 GS price database and the minus4plus6 Rolex price database, and some old Omega prices to figure it all out.


What you pay at retail is directly reflecting secondary market price. If you can get a SBGA211 for $2,000 in the secondary market, less people are willing to pay the $5,800 to buy new in the US plus tax.

Similarly, because the demand is already there, ever-increasing MSRP will push up secondary market pricing because the cost at retail is higher.

Why would I be appalled at the retail price is I know the production cost? The value of an item is not set by production cost, and there's no cap as to how much profit margin a company is allowed to make.


----------



## Cowboy Bebop

cheu_f50 said:


> If you want watches to better retain value, support the move to pay full price and no discounts.
> 
> The bigger the discount, the less value the watch will hold.


I can contradict this statement...here goes, a few years ago when you can find a steel Submariner on display my manager friend gave me a discount and I didn't even ask for one...I recently learned that this same Submariner was selling for over 2 to 3 thousand more at the time on the second market and currently 5 to 6 thousand USD what I actually paid for... do you think someone getting a discount labels a watch having less value (do you think I caused other owner's values to go under)? I do not believe this to be the case.

It would be the equivalent of someone causing a ripple in the watch world... think of the great words Obi-Wan Kanobi...."I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced" lol

Everyone has a different mindset..I personally don't like paying retail... since it's the equivalent of a car losing value as soon as you drive off the dealership. I'd rather be in a position where I know I didn't overpay for a watch...truth behind this is that dealers get the watches for far less than the manufacturer suggested MSRP and the dealer can set prices accordingly and if a watch isn't selling at MSRP the dealer may offer a discount to move inventory or not if they know that regardless of time it eventually sells. And then there is the part of what is your relationship with the dealership if you're a long time buyer of their, they can discount watches for you when you bargain but by no means I don't feel that I undervalued the brand in fact I just made it more popular.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## cheu_f50

Cowboy Bebop said:


> I can contradict this statement...here goes, a few years ago when you can find a steel Submariner on display my manager friend gave me a discount and I didn't even ask for one...I recently learned that this same Submariner was selling for over 2 to 3 thousand more at the time on the second market and currently 5 to 6 thousand USD what I actually paid for... do you think someone getting a discount labels a watch having less value (do you think I caused other owner's values to go under)? I do not believe this to be the case.
> 
> It would be the equivalent of someone causing a ripple in the watch world... think of the great words Obi-Wan Kanobi...."I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced" lol
> 
> Everyone has a different mindset..I personally don't like paying retail... since it's the equivalent of a car losing value as soon as you drive off the dealership. I'd rather be in a position where I know I didn't overpay for a watch...truth behind this is that dealers get the watches for far less than the manufacturer suggested MSRP and the dealer can set prices accordingly and if a watch isn't selling at MSRP the dealer may offer a discount to move inventory or not if they know that regardless of time it eventually sells. And then there is the part of what is your relationship with the dealership if you're a long time buyer of their, they can discount watches for you when you bargain but by no means I don't feel that I undervalued the brand in fact I just made it more popular.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


You are contradicting yourself with the example of a sub. Since 2016 or 2017, Rolex no longer discount sports models, and secondary market prices followed.

At the end of the day, if you get a discount off MSRP, there's just a retail number the dealer had in mind that you don't know about. The MSRP number is made up, and you are paying retail even if you get a certain percent off MSRP. It's the same thing with a car. The more discount the market gets, the more value it will lose the second it leaves the store vs MSRP.


----------



## Viper98912

MSRP's are calculations by the marketing/sales and finance teams on what they think someone will pay for the watch after all the research they've put together. If people are willing to pay it, then they win. If they aren't, then the company will see the lack of sales and will need to make adjustments, either directly through price decreases or special sales events.

I also have had a GS AD tell me last year that GS is no longer "allowing" discounts. I find it rubbish; just tell me the truth that you're not willing to budge on the price, and I'm ok with that. I walked out of the AD without a purchase, and that was ok for me, and I assume for them, as they didn't try to stop me.

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is your perception as to what you're happy with paying, and subsequently pay. All that marketing research is basically them trying to figure out what neurons are firing in your brain.


----------



## WizardofWatch

I am in the market to purchase a GS and hence, was shopping around. I spoke to 5 ADs and everyone was firm on the no-discount. My regular AD told me that GS is clamping down on discounts. If a AD is found selling a watch below MSRP, they are not allocated watches anymore. So if you have a long relationship with him, he offers you a larger than usual discount on the next watch you buy from him. 
I am inclined to believe him as he has always been straight with me. Gave me a neat discount on the Speedy 3861 as well, when I bought it back in Feb.


----------



## egwatchfan

WizardofWatch said:


> I am in the market to purchase a GS and hence, was shopping around. I spoke to 5 ADs and everyone was firm on the no-discount. My regular AD told me that GS is clamping down on discounts. If a AD is found selling a watch below MSRP, they are not allocated watches anymore. So if you have a long relationship with him, he offers you a larger than usual discount on the next watch you buy from him.
> I am inclined to believe him as he has always been straight with me. Gave me a neat discount on the Speedy 3861 as well, when I bought it back in Feb.


I've heard the same thing from ADs but then they have "reluctantly bent the rules" and given meaningful discounts anyway. I find it hard to believe that it's really true that GS would be doing this. But if they are, I'm hugely disappointed. Negotiations are a cornerstone of watch purchases (and any luxury purchases for that matter). The whole NO NEGOTIATION mindset turns me off from any brand, GS not withstanding. Just my personal opinion. Though my feelings are different for a really hot and scarce LE, for example.


----------



## WizardofWatch

egwatchfan said:


> I've heard the same thing from ADs but then they have "reluctantly bent the rules" and given meaningful discounts anyway. I find it hard to believe that it's really true that GS would be doing this. But if they are, I'm hugely disappointed. Negotiations are a cornerstone of watch purchases (and any luxury purchases for that matter). The whole NO NEGOTIATION mindset turns me off from any brand, GS not withstanding. Just my personal opinion. Though my feelings are different for a really hot and scarce LE, for example.


Interesting. My AD did not budge at all. But then again, I am looking for the SBGA413 'Spring'. 
I agree with you. Paying retail seems so alien to me! But I guess more brands are getting influenced by the Rolex effect! ?


----------



## Cowboy Bebop

cheu_f50 said:


> You are contradicting yourself with the example of a sub. Since 2016 or 2017, Rolex no longer discount sports models, and secondary market prices followed.
> 
> At the end of the day, if you get a discount off MSRP, there's just a retail number the dealer had in mind that you don't know about. The MSRP number is made up, and you are paying retail even if you get a certain percent off MSRP. It's the same thing with a car. The more discount the market gets, the more value it will lose the second it leaves the store vs MSRP.


Yes a margin they're willing to give up on compared to what they paid for the watch from the distributor so long as they making some profit it's fine...of course they may not give it to you at what they bought it for because let's be realistic they wouldn't be in business lol

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk


----------



## covfefewithsugar

After looking at how much of the 62gs case and bracelet are brushed, the lack of a bezel, and the protection of the tall sapphire crystal, I'm going to be on the hunt for the right SBGA415. Might take a while, but I'm looking for one under $5500 in excellent condition that hasn't been polished (I feel like polishing a Grand Seiko outside of Japan is like servicing a Ferrari at Jiffy Lube). Really excited about this (potential) watch, but until then, I'll be rocking my SKX


----------



## TraserH3

egwatchfan said:


> I've heard the same thing from ADs but then they have "reluctantly bent the rules" and given meaningful discounts anyway. I find it hard to believe that it's really true that GS would be doing this. But if they are, I'm hugely disappointed. Negotiations are a cornerstone of watch purchases (and any luxury purchases for that matter). The whole NO NEGOTIATION mindset turns me off from any brand, GS not withstanding. Just my personal opinion. Though my feelings are different for a really hot and scarce LE, for example.


I totally agree with you.
No one got ahead in life by not negotiating, it's no different when buying a watch or anything of large value. One should at least try. If they say no, assess the situation and walk if you have to.

On non-LE GS, my opinion is you just have to get a discount because the MSRP is so so so out of whack with the demand on the secondary market.


----------



## Stark1

covfefewithsugar said:


> I would buy one used both to get a better price and also not to put the first scratch on it. Do you have a 415? I'd like to hear testimonials regarding its resistance to scratches. Scratches are fine, but I don't want it looking like sh*t. I did see a 415 in person and liked everything about it. If it were steel like the Autumn and Summer editions, I probably would've bought one by now.


Sorry for the late reply, as it seems that you've already made up your mind that you'll be purchasing the 415. Good decision. I have the 413, and honestly, I'm not the best person to ask regarding how it scratches. For one, I've only had the watch for about two months. Secondly, I've been working from home full time, so there hasn't been many great opportunities to bang my watches around as of late. Incredibly anecdotal, but I'm not seeing that the titanium scratches more easily than steel. The SA at the Seiko boutique did tell me that the factory applies a protective coating over the titanium to prevent scratching, but unsure of how effective it is.

Anyway, buy the darn thing and wear the hell out of it. Stop worrying so much and enjoy!


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Sent Little Treasury Jewelers in Maryland an inquiry about the "winter" and got a call back soon after. No wire transfer fee, no sales tax, and no shipping charge; just a very straightforward transaction with my debit card. Shoutout to them


----------



## palletwheel

TraserH3 said:


> I totally agree with you.
> No one got ahead in life by not negotiating, it's no different when buying a watch or anything of large value. One should at least try. If they say no, assess the situation and walk if you have to.
> 
> On non-LE GS, my opinion is you just have to get a discount because the MSRP is so so so out of whack with the demand on the secondary market.


This is just something they are doing in the US to create perception of value (which seems to have worked in the case of @chu_f50) because elsewhere in Asia (especially HK) GS is much more "tainted" with the Seiko brush, meaning you can get good discounts. Even in Japan, which sees Seiko positively, you can get ok discounts. I guess Seiko believes it has a chance to start fresh in the US and is taking it. I never got hung up on the Seiko perception issue, I think they are great watches, but they have their flaws. Think on this. Every Rolex that comes out of the factory, all 1mm of them, would qualify as VFA. GS makes a tiny fraction of that, has a new high beat at Rolex prices, but can't make each and every one a VFA? This is the kind of stuff Seiko does that leaves you shaking your head. As they are not competitive any more at the prices they are at, I see them mostly for collectors who want to have something a little different, which is a really small market. To not discount just makes the whole thing worse, especially since they don't retain value.


----------



## TraserH3

palletwheel said:


> This is just something they are doing in the US to create perception of value (which seems to have worked in the case of @chu_f50) because elsewhere in Asia (especially HK) GS is much more "tainted" with the Seiko brush, meaning you can get good discounts. Even in Japan, which sees Seiko positively, you can get ok discounts. I guess Seiko believes it has a chance to start fresh in the US and is taking it. I never got hung up on the Seiko perception issue, I think they are great watches, but they have their flaws. Think on this. Every Rolex that comes out of the factory, all 1mm of them, would qualify as VFA. GS makes a tiny fraction of that, has a new high beat at Rolex prices, but can't make each and every one a VFA? This is the kind of stuff Seiko does that leaves you shaking your head. As they are not competitive any more at the prices they are at, I see them mostly for collectors who want to have something a little different, which is a really small market. To not discount just makes the whole thing worse, especially since they don't retain value.


Well said. Don't forget the movement accuracy of +5/-3 GS lists is BEFORE casing. Rolex advertised accuracy +2/-2 is AFTER casing. Kind of sad, yes. But at the end of the day, we're all here because we love the watches, the design and the brand. I personally just accepts that the Seiko movement or their ability to adjust is inferior to the Swiss. I'm glad the crazy rabid hype train isn't catching up with GS, but for us GS lovers, use that as an advantage and get a good price on every GS addition!


----------



## GSNewbie

I see it differently, at least with the new calibers. 
But basically, I can't seem to say often enough that GS only assures -1/+8 as a dynamic value. Just take a look in the warranty documents😉
But these values also have nothing at all to do with the test in which a movement is certified by GS. 
The certification is made at Rolex, that is so far correctly represented, in the switched-on state, so in the case and values between-2/+2 must be achieved to be certified accordingly.
GS tests, also correctly written, static and the movement alone. Specifications here -3/+5. However, the movement does not have to comply with these specifications in practice, for which you have the dynamic values at GS😉.
Unlike Rolex, the certification also applies to the suitability for everyday use, which means for GS, also in the dynamic value:-2/+2.
I am therefore not surprised that my Rolex DJ41 even beats the SD caliber of my SBGA407☺
Should GS bring here on a similar level movements on the way that have corresponding precision as Rolex, well maybe we would then have a similar market situation as with the Geneva company with the nice side effect that you can speculate excellently, but may pay the MRSP, waiting lists, etc. inclusive😂


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Good discussion on movement accuracy. This is why I wanted either a quartz or SD Grand Seiko. If I'm paying this much for a watch, I want it to be at least -2/+2. One of my SKX runs -5spd, so if I got a Hi Beat that ran +5-8spd, I wouldn't be happy at all. I've seen people report their spring drives to be accurate months later, so if I pay attention to that ugly little power meter when I'm not wearing it, I could possibly get away with not adjusting it for months. That appeals to me.


----------



## palletwheel

covfefewithsugar said:


> Good discussion on movement accuracy. This is why I wanted either a quartz or SD Grand Seiko. If I'm paying this much for a watch, I want it to be at least -2/+2. One of my SKX runs -5spd, so if I got a Hi Beat that ran +5-8spd, I wouldn't be happy at all. I've seen people report their spring drives to be accurate months later, so if I pay attention to that ugly little power meter when I'm not wearing it, I could possibly get away with not adjusting it for months. That appeals to me.


It can't be emphasized enough that a spring drive is a quartz watch. A mechanically driven quartz watch (I love saying that, that's the fun part about SD) but a quartz watch all the same. And, true to this conversation, it keeps time as well as an inexpensive quartz watch  (note: actually my Merci watch with a $12 USD Swiss Ronda movement is keeping around 8spy, pretty amazing).


----------



## covfefewithsugar

palletwheel said:


> And, true to this conversation, it keeps time as well as an inexpensive quartz watch  (note: actually my Merci watch with a $12 USD Swiss Ronda movement is keeping around 8spy, pretty amazing).


Why the face? Perhaps +-2 or 3spd accuracy in a $5,000+ watch isn't important to you, but it is to me. Nothing would irritate me more than knowing it was 30 seconds off within a week. You don't need to pay a lot for accuracy, but I think if you do, you should get it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


----------



## palletwheel

covfefewithsugar said:


> Why the face? Perhaps +-2 or 3spd accuracy in a $5,000+ watch isn't important to you, but it is to me. Nothing would irritate me more than knowing it was 30 seconds off within a week. You don't need to pay a lot for accuracy, but I think if you do, you should get it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


You misunderstood, the face was because it keeps mediocre time for a quartz watch. A spring drive, which is a quartz watch, keeps +- 15spm, which is around what you get as a spec for a $10 - $20 USD quartz watch. 3spd is good for a mechanical and I agree with you, I expect the same for mechanical watches too. You can't compare a spring drive to a mechanical watch, as a spring drive is a quartz watch.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

palletwheel said:


> You misunderstood, the face was because it keeps mediocre time for a quartz watch. A spring drive, which is a quartz watch, keeps +- 15spm, which is around what you get as a spec for a $10 - $20 USD quartz watch. 3spd is good for a mechanical and I agree with you, I expect the same for mechanical watches too. You can't compare a spring drive to a mechanical watch, as a spring drive is a quartz watch.


I take your point, but classifying spring drive as quartz or mechanical is really an academic question. A more useful question is "how accurate is it for a movement with a smooth sweeping hand (smoother than a traditional mechanical, even) and no battery?" To dismiss the accuracy of spring drive because it has a quartz element seems silly when, I think, its lack of a battery and perfectly-smooth sweep make it competition for mechanical watches, not competition for quartz watches.


----------



## GSNewbie

Of course, the accuracy is an important aspect of buying a watch and of course this often plays an important role for people who already have watches from other manufacturers and can therefore compare directly.
But the topic here is actually "discounts and seasonal offers", right?!
Certainly, the accuracy of a watch also plays a role. However, the decision to buy is not only made on this basis.
So it's more a question of what quality I can expect from GS when it comes to precision.
For quartz watches, GS is for buyers who are looking for these watches in an attractive, excellent optical processing, certainly in front compared to other brands.
With SD, GS has a unique selling point and the buyer consciously chooses this technology, regardless of what others think or how the technology is technically classified by some.
So let's move on to purely mechanical watches, with no corrective element as used in SD technology to ensure high precision.
In the past, the buyer was excited by GS because of the pricing and the visual finish, also because you got a product that, if you take into account discounts, still seems attractive compared to the Swiss manufacturers.
Now GS has probably set out to establish itself as a luxury brand higher up. 
Two new movements, in addition to the already known, excellent workmanship, should help GS to position itself.
It's too bad that the Hi-Beat's technical requirements have increased in relation to the much higher price.
So far, it remains with the rather disappointing comparison of the values in the context of the certification with the Swiss luxury brands.
This is exactly where the problem lies. Someone who now wants just under 10k. Euros for a Gs now expects not only more excellent workmanship - which the GS customer often already knows, no also expects precision.
But not only prospective customers of the watches with new movements, who already know GS, look for precision, but also potential new customers.
Is one nevertheless in the "10k league", no, or small discount currently with this policy - should there actually be - with the industry leader alone.
With Rolex there are no discounts.
However, there is guaranteed precision. A claim Reglage within 5 years warranty, should the watch run outside the values -2/+2.
For comparison GS. First of all, two values. But still only the dynamic value with -1/+8 is guaranteed. 
Warranty 3 years.
The customer expects a little more ambition and precision in this price range with corresponding market transparency.
Possibly enough But GS currently first of all already now to be compared directly with the industry leader and first next step to grab the crown?
In any case, the calibers can deliver more precision.
It would have to be introduced in my opinion more in the Reglage, above all, a certification in the switched on condition, in order to create the next jump.
In addition, the claims for precision in the context of an adapted certification for the new calibers( e.g. -1/+4) for the dynamic range and not according to static laboratory conditions, should also give the customer confidence that he has chosen the right brand.
But also the service must improve, if one wants to sell in the future without significant discount.
It is now 6 weeks since a request was made within which tolerance the date should switch, no answer from Japan.
Such a "service" I would expect from a no name brand from China, but not from GS!
In this sense, Happy Pentecost!


----------



## chatman

On "Seasons" pieces (especially the SBGA413), forget about discounts - full price plus tax if you can find one to buy. On regular production pieces, boutiques won't discount but AD's will occasionally will give you a discount equivalent to local sales tax. This is a far cry from a little less than 2 years ago when I picked up my beloved SBGH269 at a 15% discount - and which now sells for well over retail on the secondary market.


----------



## BGBC

chatman said:


> On "Seasons" pieces (especially the SBGA413), forget about discounts - full price plus tax if you can find one to buy. On regular production pieces, boutiques won't discount but AD's will occasionally will give you a discount equivalent to local sales tax. This is a far cry from a little less than 2 years ago when I picked up my beloved SBGH269 at a 15% discount - and which now sells for well over retail on the secondary market.


I was offered 10-12% off by an AD without asking this weekend (10 for winter, 12 for fall/summer, 0 on spring only).


----------



## mitch57

BGBC said:


> I was offered 10-12% off by an AD without asking this weekend (10 for winter, 12 for fall/summer, 0 on spring only).


Would you mind sharing the AD's name that offered you this discount? I'm in the market for the Grand Seiko SBGJ237. Please PM me if you don't want to advertise the AD's name here in the forums.


----------



## TraserH3

palletwheel said:


> You misunderstood, the face was because it keeps mediocre time for a quartz watch. A spring drive, which is a quartz watch, keeps +- 15spm, which is around what you get as a spec for a $10 - $20 USD quartz watch. 3spd is good for a mechanical and I agree with you, I expect the same for mechanical watches too. You can't compare a spring drive to a mechanical watch, as a spring drive is a quartz watch.


spring drive is not " a quartz watch", it has a quartz crystal, everything else from there on is different from "a quartz watch". I have no problem with quartz watch but I still need to point out that distinction.


----------



## palletwheel

TraserH3 said:


> spring drive is not " a quartz watch", it has a quartz crystal, everything else from there on is different from "a quartz watch". I have no problem with quartz watch but I still need to point out that distinction.


Spring Drive has a very sophisticated low power chip driving a quartz crystal oscillator in a phase locked loop with with the stator of an electrical generator. Just because that miniature electrical generator is driven from the energy stored in a spring via your fingers instead of a battery and substitutes circuitry far more complicated for a stepping motor doesn't make it any less a quartz watch.


----------



## munichblue

palletwheel said:


> Spring Drive has a very sophisticated low power chip driving a quartz crystal oscillator in a phase locked loop with with the stator of an electrical generator. Just because that miniature electrical generator is driven from the energy stored in a spring via your fingers instead of a battery and substitutes circuitry far more complicated for a stepping motor doesn't make it any less a quartz watch.


And in your world is a hybrid car also an electric car.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

So, a little twist in my Grand Seiko purchase. I bought the SBGA415, but it didn't blow me away like I was expecting it to. I did not put it on, and I'll be selling it on the forum shortly. Beautiful watch, but it did not scratch the right itch for me.

That being said, I did end up with another Grand Seiko: SBGA427. I was looking for a whiter dial than the 415, and I wished the blued hands of the 415 stayed blue instead of quickly turning black. Also, as the 415 was in transport, I realized how much contact my SKX bracelet had with things, and another user dissuaded me from titanium. The 427 also had a $1300 lower MSRP, a slightly smaller case size (always a positive in my book), a crocodile strap included, and more zaratsu, both on the case and the indices. THIS watch has scratched my GS itch.


----------



## palletwheel

munichblue said:


> And in your world is a hybrid car also an electric car.


Yes if I wind the car.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

palletwheel said:


> Yes if I wind the car.


I still don't understand why whatever subjective category you put it into matters. It sweeps smoothly, doesn't require a battery, maintains incredible accuracy, has a great power reserve, has fewer moving parts to wear down, and even has a neat case back display. On its merits, what's not to like? Is the presence of a quartz crystal really enough to diminish all positive qualities of the movement for you?


----------



## valuewatchguy

covfefewithsugar said:


> I still don't understand why whatever subjective category you put it into matters. It sweeps smoothly, doesn't require a battery, maintains incredible accuracy, has a great power reserve, has fewer moving parts to wear down, and even has a neat case back display. On its merits, what's not to like? Is the presence of a quartz crystal really enough to diminish all positive qualities of the movement for you?


I don't think that's what he's suggesting at all. A lot of people feel that the accuracy levels attained by Spring Drive Should be taken with a grain of salt because of the electro-mechanical way it is achieved vs what Rolex achieves with A purely mechanical movement.

I suppose there's some merit in that argument but I've owned three spring drives and all had no more than +5 seconds per month accuracy. If you wear a spring drive as a daily and have a small rotation I think it makes an exceptional movement for that type of person. Even better than and exceptionally accurate mechanical


----------



## Shoopster

My AD gives me 15% dc on everything. When I ask for an item and ask for the price he just sends me the discounted price instead of the SRP on the website. I didn't realize GS is gonna stop giving them out.


----------



## WizardofWatch

chatman said:


> On "Seasons" pieces (especially the SBGA413), forget about discounts - full price plus tax if you can find one to buy. On regular production pieces, boutiques won't discount but AD's will occasionally will give you a discount equivalent to local sales tax. This is a far cry from a little less than 2 years ago when I picked up my beloved SBGH269 at a 15% discount - and which now sells for well over retail on the secondary market.


I agree. Called around 15 ADs. Not one budged on price. And most of them gave a timeline of 3-5 months for the SBGA413.
I just got lucky that one AD I called received a 413 that very morning. And it's on the way to me now! ?


----------



## Brent L. Miller

We've never received two 413's on the same delivery but it happened last week. Still have one of them if anyone is still hunting one down.


----------



## chas58

clerkpalmer said:


> AD policy or not, with the exception of the LEs, most grand seikos pop up here, Reddit and Rolex forums for substantial discounts. A lot of them come with full warranties. How do these watches get out to the market? If GS really wanted to control pricing, wouldn't they stop letting them out to grey market sellers?


Where do you see newish watches at a discount? Which models? Honestly the ones I've been looking for lately sell for more used than at my AD. Maybe I'm just looking for the popular ones?



wrxdev said:


> Since late last year when I asked about their spring drive SBGE257. Topper in SF and Timeless in Dallas are always the ADs recommended by folks on this forum for competitive pricing.


I called them and several others, and got a NO for a discount on the season's watches SBGA415. I can get a discount locally (although sales tax puts a bit into that)



covfefewithsugar said:


> After looking at how much of the 62gs case and bracelet are brushed, the lack of a bezel, and the protection of the tall sapphire crystal, I'm going to be on the hunt for the right SBGA415. Might take a while, but I'm looking for one under $5500 in excellent condition that hasn't been polished (I feel like polishing a Grand Seiko outside of Japan is like servicing a Ferrari at Jiffy Lube). Really excited about this (potential) watch, but until then, I'll be rocking my SKX


Ha, just bought one from someone here! Love the case. You should be able to find one for $5300-$5400 used (was just talking to a dealer yesterday who had one for $5400, bought off a user here).



Stark1 said:


> Sorry for the late reply, as it seems that you've already made up your mind that you'll be purchasing the 415. Good decision. I have the 413, and honestly, I'm not the best person to ask regarding how it scratches. For one, I've only had the watch for about two months. Secondly, I've been working from home full time, so there hasn't been many great opportunities to bang my watches around as of late. Incredibly anecdotal, but I'm not seeing that the titanium scratches more easily than steel. The SA at the Seiko boutique did tell me that the factory applies a protective coating over the titanium to prevent scratching, but unsure of how effective it is.
> 
> Anyway, buy the darn thing and wear the hell out of it. Stop worrying so much and enjoy!


My snowflake seemed to get light scratches VERY easily. Makes a good case for the 415 IMHO. That polished bezel on the snowflake drove me crazy with how easy it would scratch. Just superficial scratches, but still...
No bezel = no bezel scratches!


----------



## TraserH3

palletwheel said:


> Spring Drive has a very sophisticated low power chip driving a quartz crystal oscillator in a phase locked loop with with the stator of an electrical generator. Just because that miniature electrical generator is driven from the energy stored in a spring via your fingers instead of a battery and substitutes circuitry far more complicated for a stepping motor doesn't make it any less a quartz watch.


spring drive has a quartz crystal to keep time but it also has an escapement to regulate the release of the energy in the main spring. When people say "quartz watch" they're not taking about a watch with an escapement that regulate the release of the energy in the main spring regardless of whether it has a quartz crystal or not.

I don't know why you need to bucket spring drive with normal quartz watch but if that's your coping mechanism for not getting a spring drive watch, fine you do you. I just want to make sure you're not misleading others who are not familiar with spring drive.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

Brent L. Miller said:


> We've never received two 413's on the same delivery but it happened last week. Still have one of them if anyone is still hunting one down.


Very cool of you to offer this to the forum! Also, it was your positive posts and wrist roll of the SBGA427 that actually got me interested in that specific model. Thank you for that.


----------



## mitch57

chas58 said:


> SBGA415





WizardofWatch said:


> I agree. Called around 15 ADs. Not one budged on price. And most of them gave a timeline of 3-5 months for the SBGA413.
> I just got lucky that one AD I called received a 413 that very morning. And it's on the way to me now! ?


I live in the US and I contacted 4 different ADs across the country over the last few days. Every one of them offered me a discount. Anywhere from 100.00 off to 20% off of MSRP. I settled on the Grand Seiko SBGJ237 for an out the door price (including free shipping and no sales tax) for $5744.00. It'll be in my hands on Friday. Here's the watch I purchased for just over 15% discount. SBGJ237 | COLLECTIONS | Grand Seiko

That being said, there were a couple of ADs that told me that Grand Seiko is cracking down on ADs that discount off of MSRP. That may be true but if so, I'm not seeing it with any of the ADs I contacted.


----------



## WizardofWatch

mitch57 said:


> I live in the US and I contacted 4 different ADs across the country over the last few days. Every one of them offered me a discount. Anywhere from 100.00 off to 20% off of MSRP. I settled on the Grand Seiko SBGJ237 for an out the door price (including free shipping and no sales tax) for $5744.00. It'll be in my hands on Friday. Here's the watch I purchased for just over 15% discount. SBGJ237 | COLLECTIONS | Grand Seiko
> 
> That being said, there were a couple of ADs that told me that Grand Seiko is cracking down on ADs that discount off of MSRP. That may be true but if so, I'm not seeing it with any of the ADs I contacted.


Interesting. You are lucky. And congratulations! That's a nice watch.
I was basically looking at purchasing only the SBGA413 with the snowflake (SBGA211) as a backup. If you don't mind, can you check with your ADs if they are offering anything on these 2 models? Or maybe share the AD details via DM if you don't want to share it publicly.


----------



## chas58

Interesting. I got no discount on the season's winter models calling around. I'm not surprised that some models are getting bigger discounts than others. Lord knows the "spring" regularly sells for MSRP on the used market.


----------



## TraserH3

chas58 said:


> Interesting. I got no discount on the season's winter models calling around. I'm not surprised that some models are getting bigger discounts than others. Lord knows the "spring" regularly sells for MSRP on the used market.


I think it's very dependent on location. If these pieces generally don't move quickly and the AD of course will have a sense of that, they will give discounts. In my area it doesn't seem GS has much traction, I see all 4 in stock for at least 3 months.

Another thing is calling and asking for discounts over the phone usually doesn't work well u less the AD is particularly desperate to move the stock. Especially with limited GS ADs in any given area, they're not going to tell you their best price until you're in the store, watch on your wrist, ready to transact.


----------



## mitch57

TraserH3 said:


> I think it's very dependent on location. If these pieces generally don't move quickly and the AD of course will have a sense of that, they will give discounts. In my area it doesn't seem GS has much traction, I see all 4 in stock for at least 3 months.
> 
> Another thing is calling and asking for discounts over the phone usually doesn't work well u less the AD is particularly desperate to move the stock. Especially with limited GS ADs in any given area, they're not going to tell you their best price until you're in the store, watch on your wrist, ready to transact.


This is not the case in my experience. I've been buying watches regularly for about 8 or 9 years. Every watch I've purchase I've bought brand new from an Authorized Dealer. With the exception of two Rolex watches which are pretty much unattainable via an AD no matter where you live in the world.

Not one time have I ever walked into a brick and mortar AD and purchased a watch. All of them have been purchased via a phone transaction where I ask for the price. They always qoute me retail/MSRP. I then ask if they offer any discounts, including military, and they always offer at least some discount. That's when I ask for a bigger discount and the negotiating process begins.

I have about 20 watches in my collection which include, Rolex, Omega, Oris, Ball, Mido, Grand Seiko, Seiko, and Citizen. All brand new and all at a discount over the phone from ADs across the country.


----------



## TyrantKingBen

I think the green hands of the SBGA427 look great.


----------



## covfefewithsugar

TyrantKingBen said:


> I think the green hands of the SBGA427 look great.


I agree; they go very well with the gold logo and white dial. I'm usually not a big fan of the color green, but the green hands on this watch just pop in a way that the blue hands don't. Looks great with the green-stitched croc strap, too.


----------



## palletwheel

covfefewithsugar said:


> I still don't understand why whatever subjective category you put it into matters. It sweeps smoothly, doesn't require a battery, maintains incredible accuracy, has a great power reserve, has fewer moving parts to wear down, and even has a neat case back display. On its merits, what's not to like? Is the presence of a quartz crystal really enough to diminish all positive qualities of the movement for you?


Not at all, opposite in fact. The fun part for me is that it's a mechanically driven quartz watch, a rather fun science experiment if you ask me. So you have it all wrong, I hope people enjoy it for what it is, not isn't. One should in fact not compare the timekeeping to a mechanical, which for some reason keeps happening on this forum as if there is some kind of need for superiority.


----------



## blakestarhtown

wrxdev said:


> Since late last year when I asked about their spring drive SBGE257. Topper in SF and Timeless in Dallas are always the ADs recommended by folks on this forum for competitive pricing.


Called them today, not even 1% off. Better to wait it out in the grey market.


----------



## blakestarhtown

mitch57 said:


> I live in the US and I contacted 4 different ADs across the country over the last few days. Every one of them offered me a discount. Anywhere from 100.00 off to 20% off of MSRP. I settled on the Grand Seiko SBGJ237 for an out the door price (including free shipping and no sales tax) for $5744.00. It'll be in my hands on Friday. Here's the watch I purchased for just over 15% discount. SBGJ237 | COLLECTIONS | Grand Seiko
> 
> That being said, there were a couple of ADs that told me that Grand Seiko is cracking down on ADs that discount off of MSRP. That may be true but if so, I'm not seeing it with any of the ADs I contacted.


Which dealer gave you that price, because I'm looking for that exact same watch.


----------



## Rolexplorer

Well this post comes at the end of many pages (so far.)
I just picked up a Tudor last Saturday at a great discount price. (Tudor Heritage Alarm watch M79620T.) Not a very popular model at all. Hence a major discount.
At that sale I also ordered a Grand Seiko Spring Drive SBGA413 'Spring Blossom.' (They had the 415 Winter dial, but it is far too somber and grayish/brown for me, so no sale, no way, no how.)
I was told directly by the store manager that Seiko has told them <Hyde Park> that there will be NO discounts of any type for the GS 'Seasons' watch line.
These are specifically for the U.S. market and thus discounting is a no-no per Grand Seiko's directive.
That is what the AD manager told me, anyway. So I have to pay full price plus tax in a few weeks when it gets here.


----------



## saul2021

Hi everyone. New to this forum. I recently bought my first “adult watch,” a GS SBGR299 at the Seiko boutique near me in Hong Kong and was given a ~25% discount when I hesitated on the purchase.


----------



## RetiredKarlMarx

saul2021 said:


> Hi everyone. New to this forum. I recently bought my first "adult watch," a GS SBGR299 at the Seiko boutique near me in Hong Kong and was given a ~25% discount when I hesitated on the purchase.


Congrats! Seems like the lack of discount is limited to the US. But then, it might be because the SBGR299 is not one of the sought-after models.


----------



## saul2021

RetiredKarlMarx said:


> Congrats! Seems like the lack of discount is limited to the US. But then, it might be because the SBGR299 is not one of the sought-after models.


Could also be that HK's a duty free port and that allows them to offer deeper discounts off the RRP? Might not be sought-after but it was exactly what I wanted. Hours, minutes, seconds only -- no date and nothing else on the dial.


----------



## Johann23

I got a 10% discount in FL on my 413, granted, it was before that got super popular. I still see the Seasons watches at both my GS dealers under the glass, the 413 is always missing though, others always in stock. 

Had anyone answered the question on projected lifespan of those?


----------



## buggravy

RollieMoly said:


> Had anyone answered the question on projected lifespan of those?


I'm curious about this as well. I know they're not limited by numbers, per se, but with the new batch of seasons watches hitting stores, are the previous versions going to cease being produced?


----------



## RetiredKarlMarx

saul2021 said:


> Could also be that HK's a duty free port and that allows them to offer deeper discounts off the RRP? Might not be sought-after but it was exactly what I wanted. Hours, minutes, seconds only -- no date and nothing else on the dial.


Not meant to be a criticism of your choice, I think it looks great. Just trying to reconcile all the data points in this thread to explain why US people are reporting no discounts.


----------

