# Does Ball know WTF it's actually doing?



## mjwatch

I own 4 Ball watches and have a major pet peeve. There are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour. Ball doesn't seem to realize or acknowledge this reality in its recent designs. I have a Ball Vanguard, a beautiful watch with some cutting edge features. But it has a 48 increment chapter ring as opposed to a conventional 60 increment chapter ring, preventing me from calculating both seconds and minutes correctly. I often have to wait 3 to 4 minutes to set this watch because it can only be set accurately, once every five minutes due to the incongruous chapter ring increments. I complained to Ball who has yet to respond satisfactorily. It's also seems logical that a dual time watch have a 12 hour -- not a countdown bezel. IMO Ball ruined a beautiful watch with some functionally eccentric design choices.









So, today I wake up and find a solicitation for a Ball Marine in my inbox. On this model, which has a similar design to the Vanguard, the geniuses at Ball decided to include a 72 increment chapter ring, once again giving no credence to the reality that there is 60 seconds in a minute and sixty minutes in an hour. As stated in another post, I don't believe the designers at Ball actually wear watches or understand how time functions. As the owner of one of these "down the rabbit hole" watches, I'm very disappointed.


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## swong13

One the green Roadmaster GMT Marine those are not minute markers on the chapter ring. Those marks are the 20 minute increments on the GMT chapter ring. So 02 for 2:00, a mark for 2:20, a mark for 2:40, a mark for 3:00, a mark for 3:20, a mark for 3:40, then 04 for 4:00. I'm guessing 15 minute increments on with the Vanguard.


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## LosAngelesTimer

Grind that axe, brother! This is the second thread you've started featuring this particular whinge.


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## mjwatch

LosAngelesTimer said:


> Grind that axe, brother! This is the second thread you've started featuring this particular whinge.


Reason being, Ball is compounding its mistakes! The 72 increment model neither conforms to my 48 increment model nor a conventional and functional 60 second/minute increment watch. Why 72 increments, why 48 increments? WTF is Ball thinking?



swong13 said:


> One the green Roadmaster GMT Marine those are not minute markers on the chapter ring. Those marks are the 20 minute increments on the GMT chapter ring. So 02 for 2:00, a mark for 2:20, a mark for 2:40, a mark for 3:00, a mark for 3:20, a mark for 3:40, then 04 for 4:00. I'm guessing 15 minute increments on with the Vanguard.


And how do you measure seconds and minutes? What good is the second hand on these models? Decoration, an afterthought?


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## Sparrowhawk

Easiest solution in the world.

Don't buy one.


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## mjwatch

Sparrowhawk said:


> Easiest solution in the world.
> Don't buy one.


I own it, bought on preorder. This post is a word to the wise.


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## Sparrowhawk

Personally, I am not a fan of the preorder process from Ball.

For the more recent solicitation, my earlier post stands.


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## BundyBear

mjwatch said:


> I own 4 Ball watches and have a major pet peeve....it has a 48 increment chapter ring as opposed to a conventional 60 increment chapter ring...., It's also seems logical that a dual time watch have a 12 hour -- not a countdown bezel. IMO Ball ruined a beautiful watch ....
> View attachment 15551775
> 
> 
> ....the Vanguard, the geniuses at Ball decided to include a 72 increment chapter ring,.... reality that there is 60 seconds in a minute...
> View attachment 15551778


I hear ya @mjwatch

I don't think this is going away anytime soon since the designers at Ball thought it was a good idea. I can understand why they did that because the chapter ring is meant for the dial time hand, not the minute or seconds hand which would make sense. Except that we don't know if it's a 36 or 37 minutes past the hour. Yes, dumb I know.

The solution I see it is that these models should have had two tracks. An inner track for fifteen minute increments to match the GMT time offsets for some countries which are half or quarter hour and, an outer track for the minutes and seconds. The seconds hand also needs to extend long enough so that we know where it's pointing to.

In saying that, the GMT hand needs to jump 48 clicks around the dial for fifteen minute increments rather than some weird 60 clicks.


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## Stowie

I think the marks are done at 72 and 48 to function with reading the gmt. (72 meaning each one is a 10, and 48 meaning each is 15) Ball just leaves up up the to user to guess the exact minute. Most people round to the nearest 5mins anyway.

Personally I love both watches. On the list of future buys.


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## singlemalt_18

mjwatch said:


> And how do you measure seconds and minutes?


Buy a chronograph.

Someone once said "watches are not investments, they are consumables.". With that wisdom, owning and wearing a watch should be enjoyable and fun; attention to style and fashion is why someone would own more than ONE I can only imagine as I await delivery of my second Ball, after 8 years of proudly wearing the same one everyday. As with many things in life, obsessive compulsive tendencies seldom lead to satisfaction.


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## mjwatch

@Dogbert_is_fat... That would work! Is to too much to ask for a watch with a seconds and minutes hand to actually measure seconds and minutes? 🙂


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## timefleas

One thread made your point, two is going beyond reason into obsession--how many people here do you think there are? There is a pretty small group of "regulars" and I am pretty sure we all got your "point" the first time. And how about cleaning up your language, or your acronyms--this is just a watch forum, not a street brawl. We get it, you are bothered by the lack of minute increments--the watch with that kind of design is not for you--move on--how many times do you need to stamp the same feet? Buy something else. There are lots of watches by lots of manufacturers that have aspects of their design that don't make sense to me, but they do to others--so be it--this is really not a crusade-worthy issue.


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## LosAngelesTimer

timefleas said:


> this is really not a crusade-worthy issue.


You said it!


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## LosAngelesTimer

mjwatch said:


> I own it, bought on preorder. This post is a word to the wise.


Surely, the renders you plastered all over WUS were available to view _before_ you joined the preorder, no?


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## TheBearded

timefleas said:


> this is really not a crusade-worthy issue.


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## steelcityfishanddive

Haha


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## Mediocre

Did you try to request a refund?


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## [email protected]

LosAngelesTimer said:


> Grind that axe, brother! This is the second thread you've started featuring this particular whinge.


LAT,

How funny! I lived and worked in the U.K. off/on for a few years and as a Yank from the mountain-west, just used to walk around the job grinning like an idiot over so many of the expressions in full use around me (engineering staff). I haven't heard "whinge" for years...

He is on a whinge... ..lol..


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## combat_vet

Ball’s lume is amazing


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## mjwatch

timefleas said:


> One thread made your point, two is going beyond reason into obsession--how many people here do you think there are? There is a pretty small group of "regulars" and I am pretty sure we all got your "point" the first time. And how about cleaning up your language, or your acronyms--this is just a watch forum, not a street brawl. We get it, you are bothered by the lack of minute increments--the watch with that kind of design is not for you--move on--how many times do you need to stamp the same feet? Buy something else. There are lots of watches by lots of manufacturers that have aspects of their design that don't make sense to me, but they do to others--so be it--this is really not a crusade-worthy issue.


Perhaps the post was redundant but when I received a solicitation from Ball for a different model with a similar flaw it pushed my button. The watch is beautiful and I appreciate its mechanical dual time innovation which makes its flaws that much more irritating.


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## [email protected]

mjwatch said:


> Perhaps the post was redundant but when I received a solicitation from Ball for a different model with a similar flaw it pushed my button. The watch is beautiful and I appreciate its mechanical dual time innovation which makes its flaws that much more irritating.


It would be a "flaw" if it failed to perform it's function. It appears as though the designs are a bit whimsical but it's not an unattractive watch. As others have offered - there are lots of alternatives.

Broader point: No one manufacturer does everything that one likes, well. It's the best argument against "fanboyism" there is.


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## Rolexplorer

Yeh. Stupid marker divisions.


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## wirebender

mjwatch said:


> I own 4 Ball watches and have a major pet peeve. There are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour. Ball doesn't seem to realize or acknowledge this reality in its recent designs. I have a Ball Vanguard, a beautiful watch with some cutting edge features. But it has a 48 increment chapter ring as opposed to a conventional 60 increment chapter ring, preventing me from calculating both seconds and minutes correctly. I often have to wait 3 to 4 minutes to set this watch because it can only be set accurately, once every five minutes due to the incongruous chapter ring increments. I complained to Ball who has yet to respond satisfactorily. It's also seems logical that a dual time watch have a 12 hour -- not a countdown bezel. IMO Ball ruined a beautiful watch with some functionally eccentric design choices.
> View attachment 15551775
> 
> 
> So, today I wake up and find a solicitation for a Ball Marine in my inbox. On this model, which has a similar design to the Vanguard, the geniuses at Ball decided to include a 72 increment chapter ring, once again giving no credence to the reality that there is 60 seconds in a minute and sixty minutes in an hour. As stated in another post, I don't believe the designers at Ball actually wear watches or understand how time functions. As the owner of one of these "down the rabbit hole" watches, I'm very disappointed.
> View attachment 15551778


I empathize with your frustration, although your focus seems misdirected. Design choices, whether they be utilitarian or "whimsical" as one commenter has suggested are just that, choices...by the designer. There is no obligation to accept those decisions. As we are all well aware, and it should not require repeating, no one forced you to purchase this product. That being said, I agree with you, the design choice is not to my liking either.

So why is it that I am and will forever be a Ball watch fan, yet you hold contempt for the brand? I think the answer is evident: you made a mistake and you would rather blame Ball than take on the ownership for your decision. You purchased the watch. You believed it "checked all the boxes". You received it. You took the tags off. You kept it. And then you decided that it was flawed, didn't make the grade, poorly designed. YOU changed your mind.

For the very reasons that you dislike your purchase, I would have passed. Perhaps your displeasure should be refocused on your failure to carefully critique the design before you made such an expensive decision? I passed on these models that you've listed, yet I am a proud owner of two Ball watches that I cherish and will pass on to my children. Ball watches are a measure of quality and innovation that I have yet to see in other offerings. I respect what they do, applaud their successes and steer clear of their missteps. As with any brand/company that professes a dedication to innovation, it would be obtuse to assume that innovation goes without a healthy dose of trial and error.

Ball watches have never hidden the fact that their jam is innovation.

You picked the wrong pony.

Live with it.


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## dan360

[sarcasm]

It's the "Railroad Standard"

Common mistake in the western world is to believe that is some sort of statement regarding accuracy. Railroad Standard is 'we get there, when we get there." Sort of like island time, without the kailua pig and a lei

The only accurate timekeeping done by the railroad is break time; honorable mention for having the maximum time allowable to block a crossing before moving down to better than COSC.

We should be lucky Ball at least put the effort into making the gaps uniform, for the most part.

[sarcasm]


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## mjwatch

wirebender said:


> You purchased the watch. You believed it "checked all the boxes". You received it. You took the tags off. You kept it. And then you decided that it was flawed, didn't make the grade, poorly designed. YOU changed your mind.


Hey, I own the watch, I own my mistake, and I'm entitled to express my opinion. A three handed watch that fails to accurately read two of those hands -- minutes and seconds -- is very disappointing in my opinion. I informed Ball of my dissatisfaction and I'm informing potential buyers so they won't make the same mistake. No better place to do that than in the Ball forum, right? Who knows, Ball might even benefit from my comments to produce better watches? I own four Ball watches and my takeaway is that this was my last preorder. Lesson learned.


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## Racer88

wirebender said:


> Perhaps your displeasure should be refocused on your failure to carefully critique the design before you made such an expensive decision?





mjwatch said:


> Hey, I own the watch, I own my mistake, and I'm entitled to express my opinion. A three handed watch that fails to accurately read two of those hands -- minutes and seconds -- is very disappointing in my opinion.


If I'm honest, I might have not picked up that "flaw" if I had browsed and then purchased those watches. It probably would not have occurred to me to count the ticks to make sure it was in increments of five. I would have assumed it, really. I'd also be disappointed upon the discovery after purchase.


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## thx67

Ive been keeping my eye on Ball for a few years but I see where youre coming from. From my perspective their designs have gone off the boil in recent years. I owned a fireman a few years ago and it was a nice clean design, accurate, reliable simple watch that was competitively priced. This is from a casual observer of course but to me their prices are now sky high and their designs are just too much. Some of the hydrocarbons spring to mind. I get emails from all over the place and when I spot an eye catching Ball its always seems to be in £2500+ territory which is a weird price point for me.


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## singlemalt_18

wirebender said:


> Ball watches have never hidden the fact that their jam is innovation.


To add a dose of irony to this teapot tempest, lets consider the definition of "Vanguard":

1. a group of people leading the way in new developments or ideas; as in "the experimental spirit of the modernist vanguard"

Sometimes its not easy being a trailblazer...


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## Mr.Jones82

mjwatch said:


> Hey, I own the watch, I own my mistake, and I'm entitled to express my opinion. A three handed watch that fails to accurately read two of those hands -- minutes and seconds -- is very disappointing in my opinion. I informed Ball of my dissatisfaction and I'm informing potential buyers so they won't make the same mistake. No better place to do that than in the Ball forum, right? Who knows, Ball might even benefit from my comments to produce better watches? I own four Ball watches and my takeaway is that this was my last preorder. Lesson learned.


Some of these responses seem a bit brand defensive. Honestly, I'm not even a picky WIS who tosses everything under a loupe and moans about $200 Seikos, but this would irritate me. Yeah, I guess the OP should've done some more research, but I don't think his complaint is entirely unreasonable.


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## timefleas

dan360 said:


> [sarcasm]
> 
> It's the "Railroad Standard"
> 
> Common mistake in the western world is to believe that is some sort of statement regarding accuracy. Railroad Standard is 'we get there, when we get there." Sort of like island time, without the kailua pig and a lei
> 
> The only accurate timekeeping done by the railroad is break time; honorable mention for having the maximum time allowable to block a crossing before moving down to better than COSC.
> 
> We should be lucky Ball at least put the effort into making the gaps uniform, for the most part.
> 
> [sarcasm]


Of course, you realize that this makes zero sense, with or without the sarcasm, right?

Railroad Standard time, when it was established in the US rail industry, under the guidance of Webb C. Ball (after the 1891 crash) for _all_ pocket watches made by _all _manufacturers used for railway purposes, included this kind of accuracy requirement: _maximum variation of 30 seconds per week (about 4 seconds per day)_.

Ball makes no such claim for any of their modern wristwatches, and follows COSC specs for their chronometers (essentially, under 6 seconds per day), but was the leader in setting the original standards, and forms a base upon which the Ball Watch Company later developed and expanded--a leader of technology and innovation then, and a leader of technology and innovation now...


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## [email protected]

Notwithstanding the OP's purchase decision and/or dissatisfaction, a review of the Vanguard GMT model would have me choosing another model, but maybe not because of the minute/second indexing - it's the GMT function (the whole point, no?).

The concept of Universal Time - Coordinated [UTC, GMT] is that *it doesn't change, *no matter where one is*. It's local time that reflects one's position on the globe - always referenced to GMT [UTC] - that changes when one's location changes.*

Ideally, one hacks the movement to set UTC. When locations change or other local time references are desired, it's that time that should be selectable, in this case with the buttons and without hacking the 24-hour reference. The arrangement of the Vanguard is exactly backward and really doesn't facilitate GMT versus local tine referencing without a bit of inconvenience (unlike Ball's Aero GMT, based on a quick read).

I really can't envision the basis for the design of this watch. Ideas?

180


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## Nokie

Just part of owning this brand, quirky or not. It does not bother me.


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## mjwatch

Racer88 said:


> If I'm honest, I might have not picked up that "flaw" if I had browsed and then purchased those watches. It probably would not have occurred to me to count the ticks to make sure it was in increments of five. I would have assumed it, really. I'd also be disappointed upon the discovery after purchase.


I didn't count ticks and incorrectly assumed the watch conformed to horological convention. My bad! The Ball Vanguard and some comments here (not yours) remind me of the photo below. One would logically conclude this BMW has four wheels. But what if it only had three when you went to kick the tires in the showroom? My Ball Vanguard is vaguely reminiscent of a beautiful three wheel car.


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## [email protected]

And even that...

(3-wheeled BMW's might show up)


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## Racer88

mjwatch said:


> I didn't count ticks and incorrectly assumed the watch conformed to horological convention. My bad!


Dude... I would have totally missed it, just like you.


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## mjwatch

Racer88 said:


> Dude... I would have totally missed it, just like you.


Thanks. I'd guesstimate 95 out of 100 people would miss it.


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## [email protected]

mjwatch said:


> Thanks. I'd guesstimate 95 out of 100 people would miss it.


I haven't seen it mentioned in promotional text, specs, etc..

I used a GMT timepiece in airline service for years and still find the complication and the way various manufacturers design such timepieces interesting, thus my comments in the thread. I would have missed it in photos and probably even in-hand; it should be noted by Ball et al (if it was, I couldn't find it).

In any case, it's an attractive piece and right outta the box, there's a story. No harm-

180


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## mjwatch

[email protected]_180 said:


> I haven't seen it mentioned in promotional text, specs, etc..
> 
> I used a GMT timepiece in airline service for years and still find the complication and the way various manufacturers design such timepieces interesting, thus my comments in the thread. I would have missed it in photos and probably even in-hand; it should be noted by Ball et al (if it was, I couldn't find it).
> 
> In any case, it's an attractive piece and right outta the box, there's a story. No harm-
> 
> 180


It's actually a dual time, not GMT. The dual time mechanism is innovative and simple to use. I believe Ball patented it. If Ball had thought to use a 12/24 hour bezel, as opposed to a countdown bezel, it would be a triple timezone watch. The Vanguard is quite attractive, I agree. Thanks!


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## Hemingway99

Thanks for the heads up.


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## ShadyChemist

I really appreciate this! I've been looking at these GMT watches a lot recently and have never noticed these numerations. I would have felt pretty let down if I only first realized it after purchase. You're a real mensch!

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk


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## drster

I have to say I agree with the OP. I'm glad he started this thread because I was going to buy one of those Roadmaster Marine GMT's but now I'm not. I won't own a watch that does not have a marker for each minute. I understand if there is one or two missing because of a date window or subdial but not to have any is a dealbreaker. That's why I never wore a Panerai.


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## mjwatch

drster said:


> I have to say I agree with the OP. I'm glad he started this thread because I was going to buy one of those Roadmaster Marine GMT's but now I'm not. I won't own a watch that does not have a marker for each minute. I understand if there is one or two missing because of a date window or subdial but not to have any is a dealbreaker. That's why I never wore a Panerai.


Preposterous design blunder!


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## MrBacon

Deleted rant.


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## mjwatch




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## mjwatch

Meet the Vanguard II. Thank you, Ball, for listening. 😏


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## dan360

This thread is horology's equivalent of the guy who complains @ the bar about his wife charging up their joint CC account, and his girlfriend spending all his money.


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## retroorange

mjwatch said:


> @Dogbert_is_fat... That would work! Is to too much to ask for a watch with a seconds and minutes hand to actually measure seconds and minutes? ?


I've always believed any watch worthy of being called such and regardless of clever features and functions should be quick and easy to read, operate and understand. If not then the designers must be on some sort of ego trip or worse fashion designing the piece!


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## mjwatch

dan360 said:


> This thread is horology's equivalent of the guy who complains @ the bar about his wife charging up their joint CC account, and his girlfriend spending all his money.


That comment reminds me of an eavesdropper who isn't grasping the gist of a conversation.


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## rxmar23

I appreciate info like this as a heads up - a software company I used to work with included a BeAware.txt file with each release detailing issues that came up after RTM (back when software came on disks).

I don't think it deserves anger, and I wouldn't call it a flaw, because it's clearly a design decision. Plenty of watches don't have minute markers, and some don't even have hour markers, and I wouldn't call them wrong or "broken."

That said, this would be an easy thing to miss just from looking at photos. I've never had a GMT watch, so I don't know if this would bother me or not, but there are similar things that bother me. For chronographs, I don't like any without individual seconds markers, and I think a 30 minute capacity is silly. For dive watches, I don't like 60 click bezels, and I don't like a bezel that only has minute marks for the first 15 or 20 minutes.

I actually started a list of my preferences so I don't forget to consider them when shopping. The list started when I bought an Edifice that I loved the looks of, but when I first used the chrono, I realized it only had markers every 5 seconds (subdial at 12).









So, I feel the OP's pain, but only to the tune of $80, so that's quite a difference.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a sticky somewhere about unusual or unexpected spec's like this, especially for more expensive watches. (I wouldn't consider my preferences listed above as unusual spec's, BTW.)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PiguetPolo

@mjwatch Glad to hear Ball listened to went to 60 index chapter ring vs. 48 for GMT in their newest iteration. If it were a 1 hand, 12 or 24 hr dial GMT, I could see how 48 chapter rings was necessary.

Ball should have the dealers replace the current watches with new chapter rings for those who request or during service.

I used to have a watch with a buckle that kept popping off as it was a simple friction clasp. After a full service, I was delighted to find that the mfg. had upgraded the clasp design and replaced the old with the new gratis. It was night and day better.


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## Alallthetime

rxmar23 said:


> and I think a 30 minute capacity is silly.


That's the only reason why I haven't bought a Trainmaster Cannonball yet.
No, scratch that - 43 mm size is another one.


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## dan360

mjwatch said:


> That comment reminds me of an eavesdropper who isn't grasping the gist of a conversation.


You gonna dump the first two now that there is one that won't spend all your money?

Pet peeves are usually dealbreakers. Unless you like punishment. The new watch looks better.


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## timefleas

Alallthetime said:


> That's the only reason why I haven't bought a Trainmaster Cannonball yet.


Except that the Cannonball chrono function has a 45 minute capacity...


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## Alallthetime

timefleas said:


> Except that the Cannonball chrono function has a 45 minute capacity...


My bad. Doesn't change much though.


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## timefleas

_Alallthetime "My bad. Doesn't change much though. "_

But...you used that as your _main _determining factor, in addition, _secondarily_, to size...

I personally have zero need for chronographs, and I have fairly small wrists (just under 7 inches) so never considered a Cannonball, until one came up at a great price, so I figured I would at least give it a try, and maybe use it as a "beater"--turned out to be much better than I ever imagined--fit well, looked great, and worth much much more than even the full retail--a true sleeper. Sometimes when one opens their eyes to new things, there are some unforeseen benefits.


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## Alallthetime

Vice versa, I'm all into chronographs. And a Cannonball is a beautiful watch, no doubt about it, especially the no-date white enamel dial variation. The thing is I already have a beautiful white enamel dial watch, the Ball 21st Century. 
I also have a couple of 30 minutes chronographs which proved themselves useless as such. It sounds stupid, I know, because for the majority of people, even here at WUS, all the chronographs are useless. But it is what it is, I need 12 hrs chronos for a real world application, or at least I can pretend that I do.
That said, it's really truly tempting, and we all know that the only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it, so I don't say "never".


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## Dr Obnxs

Oh boy. This wasn't a mistake, it was a design choice. One not to your liking.

A decent set of eyes can do about a tenth of an increment. Without subdivision markers. Seeing the difference between two and three minutes is easy... Or was when I was younger! Ageing sucks...

Anyway, sorry it bothers you....

For me, the tritium is the only lume worth it's glow. The rest fade way to fade to the point of uselessness. I forgive many sins for tritium.

But that's me. I'm a physicist so who's surprised?

Matt


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## mjwatch

Dr Obnxs said:


> Oh boy. This wasn't a mistake, it was a design choice. One not to your liking.
> 
> A decent set of eyes can do about a tenth of an increment. Without subdivision markers. Seeing the difference between two and three minutes is easy... Or was when I was younger! Ageing sucks...
> 
> Anyway, sorry it bothers you....
> 
> For me, the tritium is the only lume worth it's glow. The rest fade way to fade to the point of uselessness. I forgive many sins for tritium.
> 
> But that's me. I'm a physicist so who's surprised?
> 
> Matt


Thanks Matt. as you can see from post #45, Ball corrected it by adopting a 5 increment chapter ring.


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## WTSP

Ball isn't the only company omitting minute markers in dive watches.


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## mjwatch

WTSP said:


> Ball isn't the only company omitting minute markers in dive watches.


Yeah. What's a minute, or 2, or 3, when your running out of oxygen, LOL!


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## PiguetPolo

WTSP said:


> Ball isn't the only company omitting minute markers in dive watches.


Is that the Celine Dion Limited Edition? I didn't know she dove.


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## WTSP

Mais non! Céline Dion doesn't need to wear watches from other brands.


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## Usafwolfe

mjwatch said:


> Meet the Vanguard II. Thank you, Ball, for listening. 😏
> View attachment 15652756


I love this design. It is pretty much exactly what I have been waiting for to pull the trigger on a second Ball. I just don't know if I want to go the pre-order route or wait for them to become available retail or second hand. I'm glad they finally got the minute index correctly laid out.


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## [email protected]

The latest iteration of the 72-increment minute scale.... It's a great colorway, however:


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## mjwatch

[email protected] said:


> The latest iteration of the 72-increment minute scale.... It's a great colorway, however:
> 
> View attachment 15706302


+1 I like the color way too.


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## Greg Di

I'm trying to PM @mjwatch about a watch he's selling but for some reason, I cannot send a PM so maybe he can to me.

Thanks!


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## amard1

I have one Ball watch and I appreciate the comments. Will def take under advisement.


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## samanator

I have chosen to express my feeling about Ball current watches and policies with my wallet. I only have an original DeepQuest. I use to have nearly every new release for close to seventy Ball watches. I have not bought one in over six years and do not see that changing in 2021.


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## samanator

mjwatch said:


> Meet the Vanguard II. Thank you, Ball, for listening. 😏
> View attachment 15652756


That is about the best newer one I've seen in quite a few years. Still has one inexcusable flaw and a second issue that is a more personal preference for me. The tubes in the minute hand needs to be nearly twice as long so it can be distinguished in the dark from the hour hand (flaw) and let's have a no day/Date, or just date option. These are the things I see in most of the models. At least they remembered the tube in the second hand. I want to time things in the dark that is why I fell in love with Ball watches to begin with. My gen one DQ does not have these design flaws.


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## Sparrowhawk

samanator said:


> I have chosen to express my feeling about Ball current watches and policies with my wallet. I only have an original DeepQuest. I use to have nearly every new release for close to seventy Ball watches. I have not bought one in over six years and do not see that changing in 2021.


Michael,

Nice to see you back on the Ball forum.


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## mjwatch

samanator said:


> I have chosen to express my feeling about Ball current watches and policies with my wallet. I only have an original DeepQuest. I use to have nearly every new release for close to seventy Ball watches. I have not bought one in over six years and do not see that changing in 2021.


I currently wear 4 Balls -- HC Original, Submarine Warfare, Vanguard, and Trainmaster 60 Seconds. Wonderful watches but there are other watchmakers out there. Ball gave larger discounts on preorders pre-2020. So, it provided a better value incentive with less supply chain and fulfillment issues.


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## amard1

I think some watches are consumables but some when purchased correctly can and do hold their value and sometimes appreciate. At least that has been my personal experience.


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## samanator

I miss the years Phillipe was at Ball. He drove all the innovations like the proprietary movement, springLock, Amortizer I and II, the magnetic shield for the magneto, and many of the best designs. I saw some of the mockups from some of the earlier designs that were passed on for good reason have now come out as II and III versions of specific models. the older designs have most of the elements correct, but the new ones seem to miss out on simple things like tubes on the second hand, multi colors, appropriate lengths of tubes to distinguish hands in the dark and even proper hand lengths. I see many crowd fund watch basic design mistakes in many of the newer Ball watch. If you going to model after one of this crowd fund group use Czapek not the typical $200 watches in this group. Ball watches were high quality at a reasonable price. Not the cheapest, but worth it. They seem to be missing some of these elements lately? Ball seems to have lost a good deal of the prerelease discounts that they have used over the past four years. When you have to pay for service centers and AD things cost more. Let's hope some of the quality and design come back with the higher cost.


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## kennylorenzo

That would drive me nuts.


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## Dr Obnxs

This originally didn't bother me, now it does.

Oh well. I bought a Vanguard (original) on pre-order. It's not so bothersome I'll sell it. My favorite is still my "Time and Tides" with a blue dial. I'm a sucker for a good moon phase, and Ball does them well (the glowing moon is GREAT!)


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## WTSP

mjwatch said:


> Yeah. What's a minute, or 2, or 3, when your running out of oxygen, LOL!


That's true. However, there seems to be a weird sort of convention in putting a middle tick mark in the center of the five minute scale of certain dive watches. Obviously this Ebel also has all five minute marks on the flat part of the dial so it isn't an issue. That's how Ball and others should do it too.


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## mjwatch

Dr Obnxs said:


> This originally didn't bother me, now it does.
> 
> Oh well. I bought a Vanguard (original) on pre-order. It's not so bothersome I'll sell it. My favorite is still my "Time and Tides" with a blue dial. I'm a sucker for a good moon phase, and Ball does them well (the glowing moon is GREAT!)


Sold my Vanguard.


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## Bill Branscum

I have several Ball Watches ... my Engineer AeroGMT has 60 increments around the dial. Their Hurricane Hunter GMT also has 60 increments.


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## broadarrownati

When did Walmart start carrying Ball Watches? There prices seem pretty decent. See https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ball-Leg...-Watch-Gold-Dial-Date-NM2030D-SJ-GO/459832449


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## King_Neptune

.


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## WTSP

broadarrownati said:


> When did Walmart start carrying Ball Watches? There prices seem pretty decent. See https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ball-Leg...-Watch-Gold-Dial-Date-NM2030D-SJ-GO/459832449


It's just a bunch of grey market sellers offering Ball watches through Walmart's online platform, similar to Amazon.


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## timefleas

WTSP said:


> It's just a bunch of grey market sellers offering Ball watches through Walmart's online platform, similar to Amazon.


Yes, and only the _very _basic model(s).


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## Pj66

mjwatch said:


> I own 4 Ball watches and have a major pet peeve. There are 60 seconds in a minute and 60 minutes in an hour. Ball doesn't seem to realize or acknowledge this reality in its recent designs. I have a Ball Vanguard, a beautiful watch with some cutting edge features. But it has a 48 increment chapter ring as opposed to a conventional 60 increment chapter ring, preventing me from calculating both seconds and minutes correctly. I often have to wait 3 to 4 minutes to set this watch because it can only be set accurately, once every five minutes due to the incongruous chapter ring increments. I complained to Ball who has yet to respond satisfactorily. It's also seems logical that a dual time watch have a 12 hour -- not a countdown bezel. IMO Ball ruined a beautiful watch with some functionally eccentric design choices.
> View attachment 15551775
> 
> 
> So, today I wake up and find a solicitation for a Ball Marine in my inbox. On this model, which has a similar design to the Vanguard, the geniuses at Ball decided to include a 72 increment chapter ring, once again giving no credence to the reality that there is 60 seconds in a minute and sixty minutes in an hour. As stated in another post, I don't believe the designers at Ball actually wear watches or understand how time functions. As the owner of one of these "down the rabbit hole" watches, I'm very disappointed.
> View attachment 15551778


I know this is an old post but I just wanted to thank you for the heads up. I almost got the green version but good thing I read your post and you are absolutely correct! Too bad as I really, really love the green. Yup, highly idiotic of Ball to do the chapter ring to serve the GMT. Only reason I can think of is that hardly no one does that so they thought, why not do it. Well, the reason others don't do it is because it's idiotic! Thanks again, you saved me from disappointment.


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## mjwatch

Pj66 said:


> I know this is an old post but I just wanted to thank you for the heads up. I almost got the green version but good thing I read your post and you are absolutely correct! Too bad as I really, really love the green. Yup, highly idiotic of Ball to do the chapter ring to serve the GMT. Only reason I can think of is that hardly no one does that so they thought, why not do it. Well, the reason others don't do it is because it's idiotic! Thanks again, you saved me from disappointment.


My pleasure. The reason I shared this was to give people a head's up. Ball apparently took notice because they recently introduced a Vanguard II with a 60 increment chapter ring. Bravo to Ball for heeding my advice! Sold my Vanguard due to the love/hate relationship I had with it.


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## hogwldfltr

Bringing up this somewhat old thread. When I was buying my Archangel, the prerelease image on the ball site had the GMT 72 increment second track on the watch. I hadn't noticed it until after I'd ordered the watch. I contacted them and was assured that the watch would have 60 seconds to the minute and 60 minutes to the hour. Fortunately it did. Although I was happy that the final watch came with the correct second track I must admit to being disappointed in their poor review of their web site material as well as their choice for the second track on the GMT. In truth the divergence from the standard 60 tick track is a very poor choice. They might as well have removed the second hand all together since it can't really be easily used for timing purposes.


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