# Zenith 36,000bph VS Zenith Captain El Primero



## tom_hanx

This is the kind of random queries that occupy my mind while waiting for the Captain to surface and try it...

Simple as this:

The Zenith El Primero 36,000bph has MSRP of $7900 (36'000 VPH 03.2040.400/01.C496)
The Zenith El Primero Captain Chrono has MSRP of $6500 (CAPTAIN 03.2110.400/21.C493)

*Both have: *
- New 400 B calibre
- black leather strap
- 42mm diameter

*The 36000:*
- is thicker @12.75mm
- has lume on the hands+dial
- has bigger buttons

*The Captain: *
- is thinner @ 11.80mm
- has no lume
- has smaller buttons

So, my question is, *apart from design*, is there anything else that would justify the $1400 markup? I must be missing something, I know it but cannot see it :think:


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## v76

And the 36,000 has the Zenith star on the seconds hand (and overlapping subdials) :-d

Not sure why it should cost more, though ...


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## LouS

Great question. I think it's just a product line pricing decision. The 36000VPH is the flagship of the chronograph line and is designed as the more imposing piece. Tachy ring, big ol' pushers, multicolored overlapping subdials and the name that rubs your nose in La Vida Hi-Beat!


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## tom_hanx

Thank you, fellas :-!

In my world the thinner and smoother one is the winner. But as you suggested, LouS, there are also those who are willing to pay premium just to show off. Is Zenith effectively throwing the nets to capture all who want to leave Rolex land? :-d


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## v76

tom_hanx said:


> Thank you, fellas :-!
> 
> In my world the thinner and smoother one is the winner. But as you suggested, LouS, there are also those who are willing to pay premium just to show off. Is Zenith effectively throwing the nets to capture all who want to leave Rolex land? :-d


Why get a Rolex chrono (old Daytona) at a premium when you can get the real deal for a lot less (El Primero)? * :-d

*With actual heritage and 36,000 bph ...


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## LouS

tom_hanx said:


> Thank you, fellas :-!
> 
> In my world the thinner and smoother one is the winner. But as you suggested, LouS, there are also those who are willing to pay premium just to show off. Is Zenith effectively throwing the nets to capture all who want to leave Rolex land? :-d


For the record, the 36000 VPH appeals to me! But I take your point too....


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## grinhu

I had the opportunity to try it. It is a fantastic watch, very well finished, with a great design, especially for the dial. The captain looks a bit boring compared to this one.


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## LouS

Thanks for posting a pic! We haven't yet got these on this side of the pond.

Is the polished band around the 3 and 6 subdials actually blue in part, or is it a trick of the light? On the Zenith website it looks grey. If it is blue, great idea to match the chronograph second hand.


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## kurwenal

The one I tried ten days ago had steel grey and silver rings around the subdials, so it looks like a trick of light (reflection from the sweater?). It also came on black leather strap, steel not yet available.
Although I really liked it and asked them to inform me when the first black dial 36' comes in, I'm beginning to have doubts whether the overlapping subdials are a great design or a functional flaw.

Erwin


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## LouS

kurwenal said:


> I'm beginning to have doubts whether the overlapping subdials are a great design or a functional flaw.
> 
> Erwin


Indeed. Strange to obscure part of the minute hand travel on a chrono. And all to make room for a 6 o'clock date it would seem....


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## kurwenal

LouS said:


> And all to make room for a 6 o'clock date it would seem....


Maybe not just that. The AD pointed out to me that the subdials and their hands, or rather, the holes for the hands, are in the positions of any primero mechanism, of course. With the greater space of 42mm, and no considerable bezel taking up the dial's real estate, they needed to increase the size of the subdial radius, else the subdials would look too small, and do it without shifting the dials' centers apart. He went on to say that the subdials on older primeros were the size of the inner circles on the 36000, and the multi-colored rings are "added" to the usual dials.

Erwin


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## LouS

kurwenal said:


> Maybe not just that. The AD pointed out to me that the subdials and their hands, or rather, the holes for the hands, are in the positions of any primero mechanism, of course. With the greater space of 42mm, and no considerable bezel taking up the dial's real estate, they needed to increase the size of the subdial radius, else the subdials would look too small, and do it without shifting the dials' centers apart. He went on to say that the subdials on older primeros were the size of the inner circles on the 36000, and the multi-colored rings are "added" to the usual dials.
> 
> Erwin


Interesting thought, but I'm not sure if it's quite true. The original dials did overlap, and this was handled in one of three ways. The first was simply to make the hour dial smaller, as in the A3818 below. The second was to smush the edges out of round just slightly, as in the A788, and the third was to overlap the hour dial as in the A386, (which impairs functionality a bit less than overlapping the minute hand in a chrono, IMO). In no case were the markers over any part of the subdial arcs deleted, however. In all cases, the hour subdial hand is shorter to avoid impinging on the arc of the other hands. It looks as if the hands are at different levels in the 36000VPH.

It also seems to me that the old subdials overlap the arc of the date wheel at 6 o'clock. The new dial really does seem to have to make some accomodation for the date shown at 6 o'clock, and shown vertically in place of the former date wheel's 'reclining' numbers. Delete that, and the 3, 6 and 9 hour batons, and you have a vast expanse of dial to play with.

Still, an interesting consideration about filling a larger dial size in a visually pleasing way. There is some inherent irony though about the dial elemements being more cramped even though greater area, isn't there ?

A3818








A788








A386


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## kurwenal

once again, I'm awestruck by the wealth of knowledge here. Thank you for showing these photos, and enlightening me on some el primero history!

It seems that over the years, Zenith took different approaches in the attempt to balance design, function, and also readability. Speaking strictly design, the 36000 is a clear winner in my books. Function and readability? imho, the A3818 takes the laurels. (I'm also a fan of having index markers for all 60 seconds on the small seconds dial.) - In your earlier display of your threesome, I favored the 386. But looking closely at all the detail, I must reconsider. Fact is, I'm hunting for yet another vintage Zenith now...



LouS said:


> There is some inherent irony though about the dial elemements being more cramped even though greater area, isn't there ?


indeed! 
On the De Lucas, the subdials were kept neatly separate, with quite some space between them, despite the rather small dial size. But to accurately read the seconds on the DL's 9 o'clock dial, I need a magnifier...

Erwin


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## Hartmut Richter

Personally, I see nothing wrong with keeping the date at 4:30. Out of the way of the subdials, characteristic part of the Zenith brand design - I much prefer it that way!

Hartmut Richter


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## Gombrich

Hartmut Richter said:


> Personally, I see nothing wrong with keeping the date at 4:30.


I agree Hartmut, with the proviso that it's a bit of a pain if you're left-handed like me and wear your watch on the right wrist. Still, it's remarkable how quickly you can adapt to reading the date at right angles to its usual orientation.

Dave


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## Hartmut Richter

I have seen just a few Zeniths that have had the date at 4:30 but oriented "outwards". Now _*that's*_ what a left-handed person would really need!!!

Hartmut Richter


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## chris5

No one mentioned that 36000 vph includes 10atm waterproof (5atm for captain) and also the tachymeter number zone.


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## Fantasio

And the thread rises again after five years, talk about zombie comeback. :-d


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## WTSP

Fantasio said:


> And the thread rises again after five years, talk about zombie comeback. :-d


I suppose that a thread never truly dies, it is merely archived. This revival gives us a chance to see LouS' wonderful photos.

To the OP, I would assume that certain aspects of the 36,000 vph bring on higher costs than the Captain. For example the super dome crystal, the overlapping subdial hands, the more detailed dial, etc. It may also have been a question of the list price for the Captain being from a previous year and the 36k being more recent. At this rate they're probably both headed into the five figures range if they haven't gotten there already.


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