# Love IWC - but not the greatest value for money?



## anthonystclaire

I just want to preface this by stating that I love almost every watch that IWC puts out, and especially their Mark series. But sometimes I'm still left wondering why their watches are so expensive? Especially when compared to their similarly priced counterparts like Tudor and Omega, and especially their offerings that have many more complications in one watch, that are offered for around the same price as the simplest Mark XVIII. 

Is there something I'm missing here? I don't know much about their production process or anything along those lines, so feel free to input any info that you may have. Thanks!


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## VanAdian

I think much of the criticism aimed at (modern) IWC is their use of ubiquitous movements (ETA, Valjoux) rather than in-house - which is not a big problem; but they always tend to aggressively price their pieces relative to others in their price point that do offer updated in house movements- as you mention you likely get more bang for your buck with Omega, Tudor, Nomos, etc. This realistion is also illustrated in the resale value of the pieces - buy these pre-owned at a substantial discount!
I have owned a bunch of IWCs and always enjoyed them. Case and dial finishing of some of the series (such as the Mark series) competes well with Omega, but still inferior imho.


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## oso2276

While IWC does not do everything in-house, IWC does not withhold on quality craftsmanship.
As a luxury item watches are made for different tastes. Before the in-house madness started, using an ETA based movement was not a big deal.
In generate, buy what you like, and while doing it, buy pre-loved (except for Rolex). 

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## anthonystclaire

VanAdian said:


> I think much of the criticism aimed at (modern) IWC is their use of ubiquitous movements (ETA, Valjoux) rather than in-house - which is not a big problem; but they always tend to aggressively price their pieces relative to others in their price point that do offer updated in house movements- as you mention you likely get more bang for your buck with Omega, Tudor, Nomos, etc. This realistion is also illustrated in the resale value of the pieces - buy these pre-owned at a substantial discount!
> I have owned a bunch of IWCs and always enjoyed them. Case and dial finishing of some of the series (such as the Mark series) competes well with Omega, but still inferior imho.


I don't really mind in either way in terms of in house or non in house movements at all - but it would seem to justify their price point a little more. Good point about pre owned as well.


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## gmads

I'll preface this by saying this was awhile ago, but the last time I was looking at IWC at an AD, they started off with a healthy discount, so they weren't as "expensive" as it initially seemed.


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## Leonine

It is frustrating, but they can get away with it.


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## City74

Watches in general aren’t a good value proposition, outside of maybe a $10 Casio. IWC makes fine Watches and if you like them then own one 


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## [email protected]

I think the fact that it’s overpriced is very well reflected in its terrible resale value


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## michael8238

I think most 'luxury' items aren't exactly value propositions...if anything, it's the fact that they are overpriced make them kinda desirable..does it make any sense?
It's the excessiviness that sort of defines luxury---if you have means to go for something excessive and unnecessary, it IMPLIES that you might not need to worry about basic survival.


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## RPF

anthonystclaire said:


> I just want to preface this by stating that I love almost every watch that IWC puts out, and especially their Mark series. But sometimes I'm still left wondering why their watches are so expensive? Especially when compared to their similarly priced counterparts like Tudor and Omega, and especially their offerings that have many more complications in one watch, that are offered for around the same price as the simplest Mark XVIII.
> 
> Is there something I'm missing here? I don't know much about their production process or anything along those lines, so feel free to input any info that you may have. Thanks!


IWC operate boutiques, as opposed to being carried by retailers who carry multiple brands. They are trying to create an image of exclusivity. However, it's very expensive to cultivate such an image, and it reflects in their pricing, as well as the number of watches they make.

IWC doesn't seem as attractive as 20 years ago. They had offerings that put Rolex and Omega to shame in those days, for just a bit more or equal money. You cannot say the same today, save for some exceptional pieces.

The Mark series is a slap-on-a-dial job. A Stowa is less well-made, but spec for spec, the TOx series comes close. But the Mark goes for silly money, especially the recent Rake/Revolution bronze and Hodinkee editions.

IWC needs to up their game several notches because their competitors have much deeper pockets and scale than they do.


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## Wally71

As part of my job I personally know companies which manufacture IWC bracelets, buckles and deployant, they are all Swiss companies. Almost all the cases are manufactured by IWC and some by Parmigiani. That's how "Swiss Made" should work and, according to what these people told me once, anything that is at least 70% "Swiss Made" can't be sold at a price lower that 3.500 euros. On that you have to add cost of boutiques, R&D, advertisement etc...
I do not want to defend IWC, I do not care, I simply love their watches and I'm happy with that, but when you put side by side an IWC and a 1.500 euros alternative (pilot) watch, anyone can appreciate the difference in quality and finishing.
Trying to find a reason for the price of a watch is always tricky in my opinion, I gave up along ago. 
Maybe 80K watches manufactured by IWC against ten times more manufactured by Omega, with a comparable brand reputation (which basically means for them money to spend), can be an additional explanation.


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## Watchbreath

As with almost all watches.


[email protected] said:


> I think the fact that it's overpriced is very well reflected in its terrible resale value


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## Watchbreath

Since "money" these days has no real value, it becomes a perplexing question.


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## Charles.K

I think IWC has its place in the market. Especially in the pilot + Portuguese chrono models. They are doing well.


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## sjo1988

I have an IWC portugese, and while I love the dial and the case, the movement really is a bit disappointing. You can feel the harshness in the manual wind of the ETA movement.


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## saintchuck

Retail price is a bit high, but if you are going to pay full price(or close to full price) for an IWC go to one of their boutiques...they do it right. With rolex, and omega it is your basic process. IWC is an experience, the decor, the people, everything is top notch. Hence the hefty price tag, but they do a spectacular job with their retail stores. 

As with a luxury vehicle, the value is in the pre owned market. I picked up an Aquatimer 2000 for a reasonable deal and it still had warranty on it. I have done some service to it since 2007 but overall it is a great watch.

If you are seriously looking for "value" there are many other brands which have a lower price point, but a pre owned IWC can be a very good choice.


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## bluefoam

Did the OP mention IWC in the same sentance as Tudor? They are not in the same class of watch. You could eqully ask why a Rolex commands a premium price... because brand quality, craft & association... Is any watch truely worth the price they command? You can buy a fully functioning Timex for a few euro... Does that devalue a Patek?


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## Explorer23

I feel similar. Love their Pilot line but the price and ETA movement makes me want to go Omega/Rolex instead. The new Spitfire models though use in-house movements and the new Chrono is in a 41mm case, which means at least they listen to their customers wants. If they make their classic Pilot chrono in a 41mm, I may finally go ahead and buy one. Until then, I have my eyes on the Stowa klassik rather than the mark 18.


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## R.Squire

sjo1988 said:


> I have an IWC portugese, and while I love the dial and the case, the movement really is a bit disappointing. You can feel the harshness in the manual wind of the ETA movement.


Interesting. Didn't know the movement was rough feeling.


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## achilles

I had so many Pilot watches, German and Swiss which I parted with. But the only one that stayed in my collection is the IWC UTC Pilot. Love the IWC quality, attention to detail and above all the bracelet.


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## Chris Stark

I think the Greatest Value is a watch that you like and wear a lot. If you're asking about resale value, most watches/brands do not fair that well.


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## Tony A.H

Chris Stark said:


> *I think the Greatest Value is a watch that you like and wear a lot*. If you're asking about resale value, most watches/brands do not fair that well.


*yes Sir. totally agree*. just enjoy the heck out of wearing it.
i'm often mesmerized when i look at the watch i'm wearing and get this warm fuzz feeling. and i look at it again a few more times. then realized that i don't know what the time is.

who cares about money?. we ain't taking it with us when we kick the bucket.


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## aa909

LOL! wait we seriously talking "value for the money" when it comes to luxury watches??

https://media.tenor.com/images/275bedb1828de2b76194b026467ba2be/tenor.png


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## Hardaway

I totally agree with the OP. And it’s a shame I’ve wanted to a 36mm mark for some time, but have had a hard time justifying it over getting a second Black Bay.


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## jodanjo

i kinda felt the same way when first going through their lineup, but after owning a couple i can say the craftsmanship and attention to detail is worth the extra dough..its a quality piece in many ways


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## veggfodur

I really like the more complecated IWC watches and I think they are great value for there money but not sure about the more basic - also the portugese is in my opinion quite amazing.


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## Hardaway

I totally agree. The same thing could be said about Cartier. But for some reason it doesn't bother me as much with that brand. Perhaps it's because I think if Cartier as a design house/jeweler first. As a result it doesn't seem inappropriate for them to use a customer caliber. IWC on the other hand is first and foremost a manufacture.


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## thekong

I find the subject of in-house vs purchased movements interesting! While when I buy an IWC I do prefer one with the in-house movement, I can’t really find a logical reason (at least to myself) to justify why they are better.

I have both IWC and other watches using ETA movements, and they are at least as accurate as the IWC movements. So, what makes the IWC movements better / preferred?

I understand the IWC movements have better polishing etc., which makes them look better. However, nearly all the IWC models I like (main Pilots and Aquatimers) have closed backs, so I don't get to see the movements anyway!

Maybe it is just the exclusivity of the in-house movement that attracted us. I suppose sometimes we just need to go with our hearts, instead of our heads!


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## thekong

Sorry, double post!


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## Monkwearmouth

I tried on a pilot chrono at an AD recently and was quoted GBP700 extra for a deployant clasp. As the watch is already close to GBP5000 IMHO this is outrageous. 


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## Wally71

Not a fair price from your AD. In Italy iy goes for around 500 (neat, discount included) euros if ordered after watch purchase, roughly 350 euros if bought with the strap and watch.
Stainless steel of course.


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## Wally71

Monkwearmouth said:


> I tried on a pilot chrono at an AD recently and was quoted GBP700 extra for a deployant clasp. As the watch is already close to GBP5000 IMHO this is outrageous.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not a fair price from your AD. In Italy iy goes for around 500 (neat, discount included) euros if ordered after watch purchase, roughly 350 euros if bought with the strap and watch.
Stainless steel of course.


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## frozenbamboo

IWC is clearly moving towards all in-house movements and the slight markup of these compared to the previous ETA/SW movement feels quite reasonable (e.g. new Spitfire line up announced at SIHH, 150th Portugieser). I appreciate this move and feel that this will 'better' justify their value.


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## Watchme7

Flippster said:


> Don't buy for investment purposes.


Like many of us I have yet to acquire my grail. As attached as I am to my (now depleted) watch collection if I need to sell them to trade up I do keep in mind the resale value (my watches will always be in an excellent condition) so it's worth considering if buying pre-loved is a better proposition (bearing in mind the risk) than buying brand new


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## Madugo

buy what you like


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## Hardaway

I will totally concede that on the movement front Omega and Tudor represent far better value props than most every comparable iwc. My problem is that there design aesthetic is so much stronger than just about everything Omega puts out (DSOTM notwithstanding), and most of what Tudor does outside of the Black Bay line that I have reconciled myself to the fact that they are not putting in house movements into their entry level watches.


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## Don Draper

IWC puts more thought and craftsmanship in the design and manufacture of their bracelets as compared to similar watches.

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## Cabinetman

I find IWCs case work to be better than that of the Omegas I own. The case transitions are sharper and more well defined on my Big Pilot and 3777 than they are on my old 2254 and Speedy Pro. Also, I find the bracelet fit to the case is typically tighter on the IWC. It isn't quite Rolex level, but better than the play I get on my Omegas. I'm not saying this makes the IWC worth the asking price, but I do feel like they make a good quality watch. If you shop around you can get good discounts on an IWC which helps soften the blow a little.


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## jimiwilli

IWC Fan here, so maybe I'm biased. Initially, I was thinking the same thoughts the OP had. I could get an Alpina Pilot with a similar movement, or hell, for that matter a Sinn.

However, I sold my Omega Planet Ocean to get my first IWC Chrono 3777-10 used. While the PO fetched the same trade value but also overpriced in my opinion, I was willing to take the risk.

My 3777-10 has been in my collection longer than any watch I've owned. Both the PO and the IWC were grails for me at one point, however the IWC Sings to me. The case, Dial, bracelet, and attention to detail is unmatched in my honest opinion. Yes it's a 7750, but it keeps just as good of time as my 8500 in-house Omega movement.

I've since owned a total of 5 additional IWCs. I keep trying other brands, but none of them check the boxes. When I look down at the dial and the case (the thing you see most when wearing a watch) none of my Bremonts, Omegas, Sinns, 2 different Rolex Explorers, Tudors (especially not Tudors) or any other brand I've owned came close IMHO. I owned a submariner back in 2007, and til this day, that is probably the only watch I've owned that checked all my boxes like IWC. Resale value unfortunately is trash amongst all watches except Rolex, Patek, and AP. Just my 2 cents.

I'll be adding an IWC Portuguese 5007 of some sorts this year, and I'm sure I'll be just as happy 
My Current IWC lineup










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## ILuvSubs

Definitely get it BNIB from a grey on the secondary market and save $$$. I love the history behind IWC (particularly their pilot watches). Their pilot watches exude elegant simplicity. Good to see that the new Spitfire range have the in-house movements, so there is a little more justification for the price.



anthonystclaire said:


> I don't really mind in either way in terms of in house or non in house movements at all - but it would seem to justify their price point a little more. Good point about pre owned as well.


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## Moonfruit

[email protected] said:


> I think the fact that it's overpriced is very well reflected in its terrible resale value


This, just about nails the entire point. And is the reason I always but used!

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## roseskunk

I just bought a little Hamilton Field watch for 1/10 the price of my IWC pilot watch(es). Both have ETA movements in them. Both are accurate and well-made watches, though you might argue that the IWC is nicer. But the movements? Who knows? And if in fact IWC modifies their movements, that only means you'll need to send them to IWC for repair. I think I get as much joy from my 'lowly' Hamilton as I do any of my IWC's.


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## anonymousmoose

If I recall correctly, I spend a bit under $5000 (AUD) on my Pilot back in the day. That wasn't any more than an Omega but yes, it does have the modified ETA movement which can be had for less in a different brand. But then again, Omega were selling Quartz watches for thousands (my favourite is the 'bond' seamaster which I also own).

What's crazy is that I spent $600 on a leather wallet, but I liked it and still do.

End of the day, it's a luxury item which can't be governed by price-quality ratio, but value of ones perception.

When I look at my IWC, I know I made the right choice. That and the brand history, makes it worth the money spent.


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## Vault

I agree with your premise, but when it comes to price, for any product, I believe, as a default proposition, that it is priced where it is simply because it can be priced there - period. If we the consumer will pay then it is a good, or reasonable, value. I do not think it is any more complicated.


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## drhr

Vault said:


> I agree with your premise, but when it comes to price, for any product, I believe, as a default proposition, that it is priced where it is simply because it can be priced there - period. If we the consumer will pay then it is a good, or reasonable, value. I do not think it is any more complicated.


Agree here . . . I'm as eager as the next to avoid overpaying for anything, but that becomes fairly moot when enough are being sold (evidently) such that IWC does not want/have to "lower" their prices. What really bugs me is to have to pass on those watches that I want but cannot afford, sigh . . .


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## anonymousmoose

I was going to make a wife joke and say:

_I she isn't value for money but I love my wife._

but she's an accountant so actually is... and I'm the one buying watches. So the jokes on me.

Not the best metaphor to answer the question posed.

PS
I'll leave the ladies jokes to IWCs marketing department


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## andycoph

We are talking about LUXURY and so we cannot put what is value for money and what is not. For example: A stainless steel blue Rolex Sky Dweller is at the 25,000$ range, while the two toned solid 18k gold white dial Rolex Sky Dweller is at the 15-20k range. Prices in luxury watches area is different so you really cannot compare a casio, hamilton, timex to an IWC watch.


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## mrdeezy

Watches and jewelry are emotional financial decisions. There is no value in anything over 100 bucks realistically.


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## nicholasnick

I would love to see IWC begin to manufacture their own movements. I love the history and the brand. Consider they seem to be doing quite well at the moment...I don't see it happening any time soon


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## drhr

nicholasnick said:


> I would love to see IWC begin to manufacture their own movements. I love the history and the brand. Consider they seem to be doing quite well at the moment...I don't see it happening any time soon


I think they already make some movements in house . . .


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## Wally71

nicholasnick said:


> I would love to see IWC begin to manufacture their own movements. I love the history and the brand. Consider they seem to be doing quite well at the moment...I don't see it happening any time soon


LOL they never stopped. Now they just started even on the entry level line.


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## trebor2

nicholasnick said:


> I would love to see IWC begin to manufacture their own movements. I love the history and the brand. Consider they seem to be doing quite well at the moment...I don't see it happening any time soon


New Spitfire range have in house movements.


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## ralfoto

I think the "in-house" movement trend is a bit overblown actually. Almost no watch except Rolex seems to hold value or go up.....I have owned several IWC, Glashutte Original and Rolex watches ...along with JLC and Tudor Big Block Chroo. My current IWC 3239 is very accurate...as accurate as my Explorer II but I see many less Ingenieurs on wrists than Rolex. 
In the end it might be true that the souynd and feel of manually winding a Rolex is superior to my IWC but mostly as these are automatics it makes no difference to me....and since the 3239 keeps time within COSC tolerances I could care less about "in-house". 
I want a watch that does not need service so every few years, and is accurate and can be serviced by someone local if need be.....that the IWC and Rolex have in common....the Glashutte...well lost my shirt when I let it go but it was more often in the service shop than on my wrist. After all the watch is a "tool" watch.....


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## higginsd

IWC is building wonderful in-house movements. E. g. the 51xxx series is outstanding with 168 hours and only one barrel house. Or the 526xx perpetual calendar, adjustable by simply using the crown without pushers.

Even the 793xx series, based on ETA 7750, is a big in-house improvement of the 7750, enabling COSC quality for the "simple" ETA.

For me a pure in-house movement is of no interest, only the quality, finish and the accuracy of the movement.



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## izecius

Some of their watches are and some aren't. Ultimately, i buy a watch because i love it and want to keep it. The Mark XVIII is a bad value proposition, but no modern Flieger watch comes close to it for me emotionally, so i bought it. The next Mark will probably get an in house movement without a big increase in price, so the value will be improved. They have to, the other manufacturers aren't sleeping and IWC has realised that they need to offer in house movements at every price level.


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## maddizm

I'd have to agree with the subject line, but I'd probably get another one because I like it and not for what it will resale for later on.


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## LodeRunner

izecius said:


> Some of their watches are and some aren't. Ultimately, i buy a watch because i love it and want to keep it. The Mark XVIII is a bad value proposition, but no modern Flieger watch comes close to it for me emotionally, so i bought it. The next Mark will probably get an in house movement without a big increase in price, so the value will be improved. They have to, the other manufacturers aren't sleeping and IWC has realised that they need to offer in house movements at every price level.


This is exactly how I feel about IWC.
Before settling on the Mark pilots (I own three of them now), I went the "value" route and owned a Stowa Pilot, and also owned a Damasko Pilot. They were great "value for money" watches but the moment I held an IWC, even though it had basically a similar ETA movement and cost nearly three times more, it was over for me. I sold my value pieces and didn't look back.

One thing I would note, if you get the IWC on a steel bracelet, the price difference is a little more justified. That IWC steel bracelet is simply outstanding and nothing in the value players have comes even close to it, and gives the watch a real high end feel commensurate with its price bracket.

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## jilgiljongiljing

I like IWC overall but I find that if I have money to buy a watch from them, I almost feel like I'm out of options even though there are so many :|

To begin with, I find their attention to detail and case edging to be quite pleasing. Their dial work is quite sharp and the crystals have excellent AR properties. Not sure why some folks felt the movements weren't up to snuff, the winding has always been ultra smooth and every IWC' I've owned has run well within COSC for years. They also happen to have a few iconic designs that are instantly recognizable be it the Portuguese or the classic Ingeniuer. 

Overall, I put them on par with Breitling for not being great value for money but having something unique to offer and a recognizable brand name and hence getting away with it, but also trying hard to pull back into the market and offer "new" and varied ways to get back into the brand, but this is where I think things have gone awry. 

Off-late the push to in-house has made their design team lazy or just cheap out. The current gen Ingy looks awful be it in 3 hand or chrono forms. The number of variations they are coming out for the basic Pilot watch is way too many, even as a theoritically "gateway" watch. The new Aquatimer doesn't have the charm or appeal of the previous generations and won't have the lasting impression. The brief Titanium limited edition they had showed promise but was overpriced beyond reason. They really need a new watch that folks can really bite into and go WOW. 

Look at it this way, if you bought a Pilot watch and then maybe a Portuguese, you are essentially done with the brand. The rest of the line up is boring until you hit the 10k price point at which point they have some absurd sizes and prices that just don't even show up in my radar


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## Godfather111

IWC is one of those watch brands that you buy because you want it, and for no other reason. It won't appreciate in value like a Rolex, AP or PP bought at SRP, but having an IWC on the wrist makes me happy. Happier than when I wear any my other Swiss watches. 

There's just something about the timeless design, the attention to detail and the impeccable craftsmanship. You can feel that there's a certain amount of pride in designing the watch.


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## Lcater95

Never buy an IWC at retail. They are amazing watches and I love the designs but they are just way too expensive at MSRP.


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## Lcater95

jilgiljongiljing said:


> I like IWC overall but I find that if I have money to buy a watch from them, I almost feel like I'm out of options even though there are so many :|
> 
> To begin with, I find their attention to detail and case edging to be quite pleasing. Their dial work is quite sharp and the crystals have excellent AR properties. Not sure why some folks felt the movements weren't up to snuff, the winding has always been ultra smooth and every IWC' I've owned has run well within COSC for years. They also happen to have a few iconic designs that are instantly recognizable be it the Portuguese or the classic Ingeniuer.
> 
> Overall, I put them on par with Breitling for not being great value for money but having something unique to offer and a recognizable brand name and hence getting away with it, but also trying hard to pull back into the market and offer "new" and varied ways to get back into the brand, but this is where I think things have gone awry.
> 
> Off-late the push to in-house has made their design team lazy or just cheap out. The current gen Ingy looks awful be it in 3 hand or chrono forms. The number of variations they are coming out for the basic Pilot watch is way too many, even as a theoritically "gateway" watch. The new Aquatimer doesn't have the charm or appeal of the previous generations and won't have the lasting impression. The brief Titanium limited edition they had showed promise but was overpriced beyond reason. They really need a new watch that folks can really bite into and go WOW.
> 
> Look at it this way, if you bought a Pilot watch and then maybe a Portuguese, you are essentially done with the brand. The rest of the line up is boring until you hit the 10k price point at which point they have some absurd sizes and prices that just don't even show up in my radar


Personally when I think IWC I think of the genta cased Ingenieur. Its a shame they canceled the in house model for an ETA one and then canceled the genta case for a standard one.


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## achilles

Lcater95 said:


> Never buy an IWC at retail. They are amazing watches and I love the designs but they are just way too expensive at MSRP.


I think this can be said for most if not all watch brands.


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## detroitMD

I just recently purchased another IWC after having sold a previous one a few years back. For me, coming back and putting another pilot Chrono on my wrist had to do with the execution of quality combined with the ruggedness I wanted. When IWC puts anything into a watch, it has a purposeful use. Soft Iron core, check. In-house chrono that's smooth as butter, check. At a glance legibility, check.


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## fruxzak

As much as I like the design of IWC watches, they're simply not good value. 

Brands like Stowa and Sinn offer much better craftsmanship.

Fanboys may throw a tantrum, but 15mm thickness for a chronograph just means you're too lazy to improve on a century old chronograph movement.

If the Daytona can be a reasonable thickness, there's no reason why others cannot.


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## fruxzak

I'll buy a IWC pilot's chrono once they stop using the Valjoux/ETA 7750


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## koolpep

fruxzak said:


> As much as I like the design of IWC watches, they're simply not good value.
> 
> Brands like Stowa and Sinn offer much better craftsmanship.
> 
> Fanboys may throw a tantrum, but 15mm thickness for a chronograph just means you're too lazy to improve on a century old chronograph movement.
> 
> If the Daytona can be a reasonable thickness, there's no reason why others cannot.


Daytona doesn't have a date.


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## desk jockey

fruxzak said:


> I'll buy a IWC pilot's chrono once they stop using the Valjoux/ETA 7750


Ditto. Breitling B01 is built like a tank and at a similar price point. I think we deserve at least a column wheel for IWC prices. Pilot chronos are a great platform for the 89365 movement and, in my mind two, rather than three, subdials look perfectly appropriate for the watch, especially if the three come in the 7750 layout. The Timezoner Chronograph and Blue Angels are a testament to that.


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## jagwap

fruxzak said:


> I'll buy a IWC pilot's chrono once they stop using the Valjoux/ETA 7750


They have. The new Spitfire and some Top Guns are in house 3 dial chronos, and almost similar prices as the 7750. The 89365 is more expensive for reasons I am not entirely able to explain.


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## desk jockey

jagwap said:


> They have. The new Spitfire and some Top Guns are in house 3 dial chronos, and almost similar prices as the 7750. The 89365 is more expensive for reasons I am not entirely able to explain.


From what I read the 69000 calibers share much of the base architecture with the 7750, with some changes. Running seconds is no longer at 9, but at 6 o'clock sub-dial, the caliber also incorporates column wheel and apparently some iteration of Pellaton winding system (e.g. pawls) but is, in essence, a refinement and development on the trusty old 7750. It is, however, made in Schaffhausen so I expect manufacturing quality is top notch.

82000 calibers are fundamentally different - they have loads of ceramic parts, vertical clutch and a different barrel arrangement - thus boasting 3-day power reserve. To me it makes sense that they are more expensive.

I would gladly purchase a 69000-equipped LPP, or grey-dialed pilot chrono in 41mm, mind you. First port of call for me, though, will be the Aquatimer as I have a major soft spot for this line. Roll on 2021!


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## othertbone

Just don't buy from an AD. Buy from a grey market seller either new or used and ONLY buy the in house movements.


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## jagwap

desk jockey said:


> From what I read the 69000 calibers share much of the base architecture with the 7750, with some changes. Running seconds is no longer at 9, but at 6 o'clock sub-dial, the caliber also incorporates column wheel and apparently some iteration of Pellaton winding system (e.g. pawls) but is, in essence, a refinement and development on the trusty old 7750. It is, however, made in Schaffhausen so I expect manufacturing quality is top notch.
> 
> 82000 calibers are fundamentally different - they have loads of ceramic parts, vertical clutch and a different barrel arrangement - thus boasting 3-day power reserve. To me it makes sense that they are more expensive.
> 
> I would gladly purchase a 69000-equipped LPP, or grey-dialed pilot chrono in 41mm, mind you. First port of call for me, though, will be the Aquatimer as I have a major soft spot for this line. Roll on 2021!


Then the Sharks Aquatimer is for you, if you can find one. They are still available in Hong Kong.

I have the 89361 in my IW389001 and it is excellent. Accurate, reliable and rugged (it took a tumble of my wrist on to tarmac in a bike accident at 20kmh and was fine.)


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## desk jockey

jagwap said:


> Then the Sharks Aquatimer is for you, if you can find one. They are still available in Hong Kong.
> 
> I have the 89361 in my IW389001 and it is excellent. Accurate, reliable and rugged (it took a tumble of my wrist on to tarmac in a bike accident at 20kmh and was fine.)


Thanks! I was thinking about this one. I think the dial looks ace on it and it is definitely in the running. There are some listings on Chrono24.

Gotta say that I am slightly jealous of your Top Gun chrono, what a piece that is!


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## jagwap

desk jockey said:


> Thanks! I was thinking about this one. I think the dial looks ace on it and it is definitely in the running. There are some listings on Chrono24.
> 
> Gotta say that I am slightly jealous of your Top Gun chrono, what a piece that is!


It is brand new in Hong Kong at an OK price: IWC IW379506 價錢、規格及用家意見 - 香港格價網 Price.com.hk

Thanks. The Ceramic Chrono was on my grail list for eight years when they finally brought it out in the right size. I had always wanted an IW3786, but missed that limited edition. The Top Gun label really didn't appeal. So when the IW389001 came out in the same size as the IW3786, no visible Top Gun when worn, a lower price, and I could get it tax free the day before it was released, with the currency in my favour, I couldn't resist.


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## watchbreather2

A good tip would be to not buy at at full retail price and buy preowned once you have done your due diligence,you should get a good deal and resale wont hit you as hard.You pay for the quality and name just like rolex,panerai,omega bretiling etc.


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## jagwap

watchbreather2 said:


> A good tip would be to not buy at at full retail price and buy preowned once you have done your due diligence,you should get a good deal and resale wont hit you as hard.You pay for the quality and name just like rolex,panerai,omega bretiling etc.


True. But the link I sent is new and considerably below retail. Hong Kong has some amazing bargains if you don't want Rolex or Patek. No warrantee though.


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## anonymousmoose

fruxzak said:


> I'll buy a IWC pilot's chrono once they stop using the Valjoux/ETA 7750


The Valjoux is what makes them so well priced. Once they go in-house expect a massive price increase.


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## neons

anonymousmoose said:


> The Valjoux is what makes them so well priced. Once they go in-house expect a massive price increase.


For what it's worth, I think the valjoux is a killer movement for that watch. To beat a dead horse here, if in house movements can get finnicky you'll have to send them back to IWC if you don't have someone specialized locally. And same with the ETA (Sellita now) in the Mark Series, which is super slim.

I do agree that they're a lot of money though. If you take out their massive marketing budget I think we would see them priced closer to Sinn


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## jagwap

anonymousmoose said:


> The Valjoux is what makes them so well priced. Once they go in-house expect a massive price increase.


They already have, in the Spitfire Chrono, and the increase was not so big.


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## theotse

I guess we buy the brand, not for profit or to hold value. If you want a watch that will forever hold value, maybe IWC isn't the best choice. Its truly a beautiful brand though!


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## brianinCA

You aren't missing anything. They charge a lot because they have been able to get away with it and they will keep doing so until market conditions makes them change. That being said, I bought pre-owned IWC 3741 and I love it!


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## LCheapo

fruxzak said:


> As much as I like the design of IWC watches, they're simply not good value.
> 
> Brands like Stowa and Sinn offer much better craftsmanship.
> 
> Fanboys may throw a tantrum, but 15mm thickness for a chronograph just means you're too lazy to improve on a century old chronograph movement.
> 
> If the Daytona can be a reasonable thickness, there's no reason why others cannot.


The new Portugieser chrono is 13mm. No date either. I think the design is pretty unique, and with the new in house movement, there is really no reason anymore not to get one...


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## LCheapo

jagwap said:


> They already have, in the Spitfire Chrono, and the increase was not so big.


Ditto for the Portugieser chrono.


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## Commandercody66

IWC is good value if you can get 40% off like I did when I bought my Pilot Chrono LPP through my sister who works in the watch industry. At full MSRP, there are better alternatives out there...


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## ilovewatches888

They need to update the entire 3777 Pilot Chrono line to use the new inhouse column wheel chrono and reduce the size to 41mm. This will make it an instant hit. 

I'm not the only one asking for this and I'm sure there will be 1000s of new customers for IWC if they do this. Exhibition caseback would be nice as well.


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## espresso&watches

ilovewatches888 said:


> They need to update the entire 3777 Pilot Chrono line to use the new inhouse column wheel chrono and reduce the size to 41mm. This will make it an instant hit.
> 
> I'm not the only one asking for this and I'm sure there will be 1000s of new customers for IWC if they do this. Exhibition caseback would be nice as well.


I think it's inevitable the 3777 will eventually get the 69380 Calibre as IWC seems to be increasingly moving in-house. 41mm would be nice as well, but I'm not holding my breath (I'd actually sell my 43mm 3777 and get the updated model if they reduced the diameter - I love the watch, but 43mmx15mm is just too bloody big).

There's zero chance of an exhibition case back - the soft-iron inner case is part of the DNA of the pilot's line, and I can't imagine they'd abandon that for the 69380 movement that's - let's be honest - not particularly enthralling to look at. But time will tell I guess - I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


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## LCheapo

I'd assume that sooner or later they'll switch to a silicon balance, and then the need for a magnetic shield goes away.

Regarding the movement optics: I like the looks of the 69355 in my Portugieser. It's true the winding bridge hides most of the jewels, but the circular graining is done nicely. (Maybe not as nice as on a Hamilton 921, the fancier brother of the movement in my avatar).
There's also some perlage around the circumference (main plate, I assume, and balance cock), and some other parts are polished. (The column wheel shows circular machining marks under the plating or polish.) The top surfaces of the screw heads are polished, but not the slots. No anglage as far as I can tell - i don't know how much you have to spend on a Swiss watch to get that.

But all in all, nice to look at.


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## ilovewatches888

espresso&watches said:


> think it's inevitable the 3777 will eventually get the 69380 Calibre as IWC seems to be increasingly moving in-house. 41mm would be nice as well, but I'm not holding my breath (I'd actually sell my 43mm 3777 and get the updated model if they reduced the diameter - I love the watch, but 43mmx15mm is just too bloody big).


I really hope so. I've wanted a IWC 3777 Petite Prince for so long but I'm not a big fan of the clutch chrono. Had bad experiences with them with things not resetting perfectly to 12 and alignment issues plus I dont like the feel if the chrono operation it just feels cheap to me. A column wheel chrono just feels and operates 1000x nicer.

As soon as IWC update this to their 3777 range I will buy one ASAP.


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## desk jockey

When you say clutch chrono, do you mean cam operated? Because 69380 also uses a lateral clutch, rather than a vertical clutch. It does have a column wheel which makes the operation nicer, although the current 3777 actuation is quite crisp anyway.


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## ilovewatches888

desk jockey said:


> When you say clutch chrono, do you mean cam operated? Because 69380 also uses a lateral clutch, rather than a vertical clutch. It does have a column wheel which makes the operation nicer, although the current 3777 actuation is quite crisp anyway.


Yes. If you operate say a Daytona with a column wheel and you operate the 7750 based one on the 3777 the feeling and smoothness of operation is night and day difference. The column wheel provides a nice and clean operation with perfect resets every single time. Cant say the same the for 7750 based chrono.

After I started handling the Daytona I refuse to buy any chrono that doesnt use a column wheel operation.


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## timothycck

I have an IWC portuguese chrono, love it. but the resale value is not that great.


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## LCheapo

ilovewatches888, would it be possible for you to measure the chrono pusher forces on your Daytona, by pushing it (slowly and carefully) down on a scale? I'm very interested in whether there is a difference (or not) between the force for the initial start and the force for stops and restarts, and how big it is. It doesn't need to be super precise, to the nearest one or two ounces, or 50 grams, would be perfectly fine.


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## p_mmk

Have an LPP Pilot. Think the shade of blue of the dial on the LPP is unique and gorgeous. Got it with a bracelet and while I wear it mostly with a strap, I find the bracelet exceptionally comfortable and love the unique way you adjust it. Bought it used and if I sell it, won't lose much money if any. Can't say that with most consumer goods. 

To me buying a watch over $100 is illogical, so I buy based on what l like. Buying used reduces my financial hit. Buying used with a warranty reduces my risk of repair. If I wanted to make money, I would invest it, not buy a watch that may or may not go up in value.

I do think the IWC has lost some of its luster- which is probably why they are adding more in-house movements. So maybe that will bring them back and the discounts will start to disappear.


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## gk483

p_mmk said:


> Have an LPP Pilot. Think the shade of blue of the dial on the LPP is unique and gorgeous. Got it with a bracelet and while I wear it mostly with a strap, I find the bracelet exceptionally comfortable and love the unique way you adjust it. Bought it used and if I sell it, won't lose much money if any. Can't say that with most consumer goods.
> 
> To me buying a watch over $100 is illogical, so I buy based on what l like. Buying used reduces my financial hit. Buying used with a warranty reduces my risk of repair. If I wanted to make money, I would invest it, not buy a watch that may or may not go up in value.
> 
> I do think the IWC has lost some of its luster- which is probably why they are adding more in-house movements. So maybe that will bring them back and the discounts will start to disappear.


Discounts...that would be nice!


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## Don Draper

An advantage of having the 7750 movement in the 3777 range is that you can shop around for a service (compare pricing and turnaround times), if ALL the pilot chronographs end up using their in-house ticker then it's up to IWC to decide how much $$$$$ and how long the wait time for maintenance. What if they quote you 2k for a service and 4-6 months wait time? 

Sent from my Glacier Bay porcelain throne


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## ilovewatches888

LCheapo said:


> ilovewatches888, would it be possible for you to measure the chrono pusher forces on your Daytona, by pushing it (slowly and carefully) down on a scale? I'm very interested in whether there is a difference (or not) between the force for the initial start and the force for stops and restarts, and how big it is. It doesn't need to be super precise, to the nearest one or two ounces, or 50 grams, would be perfectly fine.


The scales I have would not even register that. I only have a large scale in the bathroom to measure your body weight. I would need a tiny cooking scale which unfortunately I dont have.


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## ilovewatches888

Don Draper said:


> An advantage of having the 7750 movement in the 3777 range is that you can shop around for a service (compare pricing and turnaround times), if ALL the pilot chronographs end up using their in-house ticker then it's up to IWC to decide how much $$$$$ and how long the wait time for maintenance. What if they quote you 2k for a service and 4-6 months wait time?
> 
> Sent from my Glacier Bay porcelain throne


There is no way it will cost $2k for a basic chrono service. Wait times should be similar around 4-8 weeks max. A column wheel chrono is not new - been around for ages decades and decades and any watchsmith should be able to service it (we are not talking perpetual calendar here). IWC are just late at adopting that into their Pilot range. I do agree the 7750 is a workhorse movement and is quite sturdy except for the chrono function. Using the chrono alot can cause the reset lever to slip and the chrono hands to not reset perfectly to 12. Many 7750 based movements suffer from this. A column wheel would pretty much eliminate that problem and also provide the user with a much more satisfying and smoother operation of the chrono.


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## jagwap

It is less than $1k for an in house chrono service with IWC now. 

The watch industry is in trouble right now, but it would do them no good to put people off from ever buying another watch again by gauging them.


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## Don Draper

My point is not the actual price of a service. It's about being "locked in" to a specific service center, a specific price and turnaround time. The "in-house" exclusivity or advancement does not do much for the end consumer (at least the pragmatic ones). 

Sent from my Nokia 7.1 using Tapatalk


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## LCheapo

So there are no third-party watch makers trained and certified for IWC movements, like there are for Omega?


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## ilovewatches888

LCheapo said:


> So there are no third-party watch makers trained and certified for IWC movements, like there are for Omega?


There would be heaps of IWC trained watchsmiths that would go/or have gone independent already. A watch is like a car as long as the watchmaker has access to parts and the service manual they can service it.

My mechanic is a Toyota/Subaru specialist but he can fix and work on ANY car as long as he can get parts and has access to information/manuals. When you think of it the major components of a watch is common to ALL movements. They may change slightly on how they are mounted or operate but the basic function of them is the same just like an engine whether its a Toyota built engine or a Mercedes built engine - they all have pistons, they all have rods, head gaskets etc....


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## LCheapo

Mhmm, that's not quite what I meant. I don't want the watchmaker to practice on my watch. I mean trained and certified for a particular movement, and with a parts account. No such thing for IWC?


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## Kirkawall

LCheapo said:


> Mhmm, that's not quite what I meant. I don't want the watchmaker to practice on my watch. I mean trained and certified for a particular movement, and with a parts account. No such thing for IWC?


There are IWC-authorized service centres outside of the IWC boutiques, suggesting that there are indeed IWC-trained watchsmiths with parts accounts. Here's one:









Authorized IWC Watch Repair & Service Center | CJ Charles


If you're experiencing problems with a IWC Schaffhausen watch, don't fret! Visit our authorized IWC watch repair & service center to make it like new again.




www.cjcharles.com


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## unclemexnyc

So I will agree on the 2 key points that have come up in this thread:

1) Most IWC models don't seem to retain value well; and those who have pointed out the Richemont sales & marketing strategy are on to something...
2) The Pilot's watches have a compelling design.

The solution: buy pre-owned selectively. I picked up this beautiful IWC Big Pilot Annual Calendar pre-owned at a great price. This watch is a BEAST...at 46mm, it's easily the largest watch I own and, while it wears smaller, you feel the difference when I go up from my 41mm Tudor BB GMT or my 39mm AP Kasparov. I also have to give props to the beautiful cal. 52850 in-house movement which is visible through this display case back; 7-day power reserve is an AMAZING complication and fantastic feature for anyone with more than 2-3 watches in their collection. Finally, the OEM Santoni leather strap on the pilots is easily the best I've seen on the market. SO much great value here, provided you don't purchase new AND plan to own it for a bit.

Kinda feel like there is a similiar story for JLCs. Great watches with storied horological presence but not great resale value.


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## ilovewatches888

I just want IWC to update all their Pilot chronos to the new in-house column wheel chrono. Hurry up!!! and I will buy one.  

IWC 3777 Petite Prince in 41mm with new movement. Bang you have a winner and a plethora of new customers.


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## jagwap

ilovewatches888 said:


> I just want IWC to update all their Pilot chronos to the new in-house column wheel chrono. Hurry up!!! and I will buy one.
> 
> IWC 3777 Petite Prince in 41mm with new movement. Bang you have a winner and a plethora of new customers.


I would agree. A white dial chrono on a bracelet for me.

Hey a white/silver Mark XVIII on a bracelet would do.


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## capitalEU

unclemexnyc said:


> So I will agree on the 2 key points that have come up in this thread:
> 
> 1) Most IWC models don't seem to retain value well; and those who have pointed out the Richemont sales & marketing strategy are on to something...
> 2) The Pilot's watches have a compelling design.
> 
> The solution: buy pre-owned selectively. I picked up this beautiful IWC Big Pilot Annual Calendar pre-owned at a great price. This watch is a BEAST...at 46mm, it's easily the largest watch I own and, while it wears smaller, you feel the difference when I go up from my 41mm Tudor BB GMT or my 39mm AP Kasparov. I also have to give props to the beautiful cal. 52850 in-house movement which is visible through this display case back; 7-day power reserve is an AMAZING complication and fantastic feature for anyone with more than 2-3 watches in their collection. Finally, the OEM Santoni leather strap on the pilots is easily the best I've seen on the market. SO much great value here, provided you don't purchase new AND plan to own it for a bit.
> 
> Kinda feel like there is a similiar story for JLCs. Great watches with storied horological presence but not great resale value.
> View attachment 15427762
> 
> View attachment 15427629


Good summary. Buying IWC from an AD without a massive discount is not a good idea.


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## wkw

jagwap said:


> I would agree. A white dial chrono on a bracelet for me.
> 
> Hey a white/silver Mark XVIII on a bracelet would do.


I happened to add a bracelet on my white/silver Mark and I'm pleased with the result.










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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