# Two Designs... Which should I try to work on?



## Karriope

Seeing as the original thread I made is about a different watch concept and I have two newer ones that I want to focus on, guess it was time to make a new thread.

Backstory's the same... since delving further into the despairity of WISdom, I started to try making watch designs and shared them with some friends, so I naturally got the suggestion that I could try getting my own made.

This time around, I have two designs that I think I would want to try to work on for production and possible launch; a more classical "nautical inspired" desk-diver, a boating watch, perhaps, and an aggressive, chunky tool watch more in line with my anti-minimalist aesthetic.
Since I have two very different styles of watch here, I'm thinking which I might want to dedicate resources towards making a prototype. Which would you think? Both are currently specified with the premium series Miyotas, but I'd also consider making them with Swiss movements if viable.

First, the classic style desk-diver. My intent with this was to get an older looking design with some vintage-esque inspiration in a vintage size and thinner profile. I'd intend surfaces to be a mixture of brushing and polished. Lume is minimal for a more classic look, but on a version with a silver/white dial like this the BGW9 on the dial would be 'hidden'. A full-lume dial or lume on the indices is also possible. I'd also consider making this with a sterile dial (no logo). Ignore the plain stock image for the movement, I'd intend a custom rotor at the very least, if additional decoration is hard to get.








Case diameter: 37.5mm
Case lug to lug: 45mm
Case width including crown: ~39.5mm
Case thickness including caseback: ~10.5mm
Overall thickness including box sapphire protrusion: 10.6mm
Case material: 316L, fine brushed finish, polished bezel edge
Caseback: Exhibition
Target water resistance: 150m (15 ATM / 500ft) 
Dial: Ice silver with luminous chapter dots, polished metal applique stick indices (double-stick 12-3-6-9), sloped blue rehaut with luminous numerals
Bezel: unidirectional 120 click, coarse circular brushed steel with engraved timer markings and 60/0 BGW9 Luminova stripe
Lume: C3 Luminova (chapter dots), BGW9 Luminova (hidden cardinal lume)
Crystal: Box sapphire
Movement: Miyota 9039 (28,800vph, hackable, no date)
Hands: Arrow hour & pointed stick minute, spearhead seconds, polished finish, Luminova C3
Strap: Dark blue leather with light blue contrast stitch / black leather with blue contrast stitch / rubber

Dial variant: Black brushed with polished applique indices, luminous, sloped red rehaut with luminous numerals

Second up is the more outlandish one, which features a blocky, chunky case design and _lots _of lume. The half-second hashes are supposed to be luminous too but I forgot to apply the property to those.
I also got feedback that the crown is too small, so I may upsize that. I'm also considering ways to add in a 6'o'clock date that doesn't interfere with the layout too much, as the location of a date wheel isn't something I'd be able to change.
I'm also considering redesigning it into a variant that uses an internal bezel rotated by an outer bezel, ala IWC SafeDive or the Ball Engineer Master II Diver (Pro), more of the latter. I'm not sure how easy that would be to manufacture, but it would certainly bring in something different. Another strong consideration is that I might try to get this made in a left-hand drive layout (aka Destro).








Case diameter: 40.2mm
Case lug to lug: 48.45mm
Case width including crown: ~42.3mm
Overall target thickness: ~11.8mm
Case material: 316L, sandblasted & brushed
Caseback: Exhibition
Target water resistance: 300m (30ATM, 1,000ft)
Dial 1: Pure black / black sunburst / micropattern (haven't decided, basically), deep blue tiered rehaut with luminous hashes and numerals
Dial 2: Dark blue with micropattern, blue rehaut with luminous hashes and numerals
Dial 3: silver with aquablack rehaut
Indices: applique metal with luminous segments, sandblasted finish
Bezel: unidirectional 120 click, sandblasted steel, luminous insert with sapphire glass, different edging from 0-20
Lume: C3 Luminova / BGW9 mix / White Line on crown & seconds counterbalance
Crystal: Double domed, ~1.5mm thick
Movement: Miyota 9039 (28,800vph, hackable, no date)
Hands: Sandblasted finish, BGW9 seconds/hours, C3 minutes
Strap: rubber / sandblasted finish bracelet with brushed bevels

I'm looking for wider feedback on both designs and to decide which I'd like to attempt prototyping first, so hit me!


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## JimFava

I really liked the first one...very clean and pleasing to the eye. The second design was too busy for me. Of course, reading your description, my aesthetic probably leans the opposite of yours. So, to try and take your perspective, would it be possible to make number 1 more aggressive or to simplify No.2 somewhat? For the second design, the shape of the number markers was distracting along with the counterbalance logo on the second hand. Very cool project, good luck!


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> I really liked the first one...very clean and pleasing to the eye. The second design was too busy for me. Of course, reading your description, my aesthetic probably leans the opposite of yours. So, to try and take your perspective, would it be possible to make number 1 more aggressive or to simplify No.2 somewhat? For the second design, the shape of the number markers was distracting along with the counterbalance logo on the second hand. Very cool project, good luck!


Thanks for your feedback!

It's likely you are more interested in a vintage style piece, and I thought making a design like this in an actual vintage size (37.5mm) could possibly appeal to such enthusiasts, or maybe female enthusiasts who would not want a 40mm+ watch.
I don't know if there'd be a way to cleanly make it more "aggressive" without wreaking havoc on the intended aesthetic. Perhaps changing the bezel to an insert rather than fully engraved steel, or making the bezel fully luminous as on an alternate black edition I rendered could work.

For the second, simplicity was not the name of the game, and my personal aesthetic is typically the anti-thesis of minimalist (many of my previous designs were very heavily loaded with lume or detailing). Its intended size at 40.2mm also makes it larger, though I'm wondering how viable it would be to produce it at 38~39mm. That said, I think a chunky and aggressive design like that would be better at a larger/midsize.
I forgot to mention that I was also considering designing a version that uses an internal rotating bezel actuated by an outer ring, like the Ball Diver Pro. Perhaps that might make for a less busy look, but I'm not sure how viable for manufacture that would be.
Could you clarify what you mean by "number markers"? The primary indices? Or the numerals on the rehaut?
The counterbalance logo on the second hand is also present on the first design, but in a much smaller size. I'm not sure what size would be actually viable to produce. On the second design, it is much larger, but in reality is just 2.5mm across and .2mm on each spoke. I'm wondering if it'd be possible to manufacture it still at 1.5mm wide with .1mm spokes.


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## JimFava

Karriope said:


> Thanks for your feedback!
> 
> It's likely you are more interested in a vintage style piece, and I thought making a design like this in an actual vintage size (37.5mm) could possibly appeal to such enthusiasts, or maybe female enthusiasts who would not want a 40mm+ watch.
> I don't know if there'd be a way to cleanly make it more "aggressive" without wreaking havoc on the intended aesthetic. Perhaps changing the bezel to an insert rather than fully engraved steel, or making the bezel fully luminous as on an alternate black edition I rendered could work.
> 
> For the second, simplicity was not the name of the game, and my personal aesthetic is typically the anti-thesis of minimalist (many of my previous designs were very heavily loaded with lume or detailing). Its intended size at 40.2mm also makes it larger, though I'm wondering how viable it would be to produce it at 38~39mm. That said, I think a chunky and aggressive design like that would be better at a larger/midsize.
> I forgot to mention that I was also considering designing a version that uses an internal rotating bezel actuated by an outer ring, like the Ball Diver Pro. Perhaps that might make for a less busy look, but I'm not sure how viable for manufacture that would be.
> Could you clarify what you mean by "number markers"? The primary indices? Or the numerals on the rehaut?
> The counterbalance logo on the second hand is also present on the first design, but in a much smaller size. I'm not sure what size would be actually viable to produce. On the second design, it is much larger, but in reality is just 2.5mm across and .2mm on each spoke. I'm wondering if it'd be possible to manufacture it still at 1.5mm wide with .1mm spokes.


I think you are right about the 1st design. I'm not sure how you would make it more "aggressive." What would you think of using alpha hands? I would de-lume the counterbalance logo on the second hand. Sorry about the "number markers," lol. I meant the indices. But, looking again I think maybe its the triangular shape inside (pointing to the number) that seems too much to me. Perhaps removing the triangular shape on the dial and the number it points to, leaving only the lines that radiate out on the dial. The indices also mimic your logo, yes? I would take if off the counterbalance of the second hand because you are already incorporating the logo in the indices OR make it a lot smaller like the first rendering with no lume and the same color as the rest of the second hand so it does not stand out. I just think that it is distracting to see that spin. As far as size goes, I have wrists on the smaller side, so I wear 38 to 42mm, with 40 being my sweet spot. I know most folks wear bigger, especially divers. The second design would be fine for me, size wise. I wouldn't mind it if the first design was a little bigger...perhaps 39. In my initial comment, I as commenting on the totality of the designs as I felt it all "worked" together. However, if I were purchasing, I might lean toward the second design if there was a little less going on. Anyway, who knows? It's always difficult to comment on someone else's vision because it's yours not mine. I hope you get input from other folks on the board who can be more articulate about what they see. I hope you get one made! This stuff inspires me. It takes a lot of passion for the amount of work involved.


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> I think you are right about the 1st design. I'm not sure how you would make it more "aggressive." What would you think of using alpha hands? I would de-lume the counterbalance logo on the second hand. Sorry about the "number markers," lol. I meant the indices. But, looking again I think maybe its the triangular shape inside (pointing to the number) that seems too much to me. Perhaps removing the triangular shape on the dial and the number it points to, leaving only the lines that radiate out on the dial. The indices also mimic your logo, yes? I would take if off the counterbalance of the second hand because you are already incorporating the logo in the indices OR make it a lot smaller like the first rendering with no lume and the same color as the rest of the second hand so it does not stand out. I just think that it is distracting to see that spin. As far as size goes, I have wrists on the smaller side, so I wear 38 to 42mm, with 40 being my sweet spot. I know most folks wear bigger, especially divers. The second design would be fine for me, size wise. I wouldn't mind it if the first design was a little bigger...perhaps 39. In my initial comment, I as commenting on the totality of the designs as I felt it all "worked" together. However, if I were purchasing, I might lean toward the second design if there was a little less going on. Anyway, who knows? It's always difficult to comment on someone else's vision because it's yours not mine. I hope you get input from other folks on the board who can be more articulate about what they see. I hope you get one made! This stuff inspires me. It takes a lot of passion for the amount of work involved.


Thanks for elaborating. I had a very distinct idea in mind for the first one, so I would not be especially keen to change it up a lot unless the design is outright unpopular. If I want to ride the apparently ongoing vintage wave, I thought it might work for that.

For the indices on the second design, I originally designed that shape to incorporate a date window at 6'o'clock for an older design, but did not use them in the end. The date would have gone into the hexagon portion and all indices would have outline-style lume save for 12 having solid. I'm still not sure they work all around rather than on cardinals only. 
I'm actually strongly considering removing the numerals and the white lines from the main dial to clean up a bit, but the dial felt strangely empty without them.

For the seconds counterbalance symbol, I'm quite certain its not a detail I want to remove - it's inspired, but from where it comes from it's a detail I really like. Maybe taking the lume off might make it less distracting, another option could be to have a nonluminous tip so only the counterbalance glows for the seconds, which would be a bit like how some Seikos have a lume tail instead, which still qualifies for a "running in the dark underwater indication".
As you suggest, maybe it should be smaller - but for now I'll have to find out what would be the size it can actually be manufactured in!

For size, I'm also wondering how viable it is to offer either design in multiple sizes. As far as I know, for the wider world, 40mm is in, but 39mm and below is seeing a strong comeback. The first design I feel would be best to retain a classic size of 37.5mm, but I'm sure that it can be sized up to 40 reasonably and perhaps fit a date at 3/6 in place of the indices comfortably if that were to be done. The second probably would look kind of comical if it were too small.


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## watchobs

Both meritable efforts! Will be fascinated to see where you go with them!


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## JimFava

Karriope said:


> Thanks for elaborating. I had a very distinct idea in mind for the first one, so I would not be especially keen to change it up a lot unless the design is outright unpopular. If I want to ride the apparently ongoing vintage wave, I thought it might work for that.
> 
> For the indices on the second design, I originally designed that shape to incorporate a date window at 6'o'clock for an older design, but did not use them in the end. The date would have gone into the hexagon portion and all indices would have outline-style lume save for 12 having solid. I'm still not sure they work all around rather than on cardinals only.
> I'm actually strongly considering removing the numerals and the white lines from the main dial to clean up a bit, but the dial felt strangely empty without them.
> 
> For the seconds counterbalance symbol, I'm quite certain its not a detail I want to remove - it's inspired, but from where it comes from it's a detail I really like. Maybe taking the lume off might make it less distracting, another option could be to have a nonluminous tip so only the counterbalance glows for the seconds, which would be a bit like how some Seikos have a lume tail instead, which still qualifies for a "running in the dark underwater indication".
> As you suggest, maybe it should be smaller - but for now I'll have to find out what would be the size it can actually be manufactured in!
> 
> For size, I'm also wondering how viable it is to offer either design in multiple sizes. As far as I know, for the wider world, 40mm is in, but 39mm and below is seeing a strong comeback. The first design I feel would be best to retain a classic size of 37.5mm, but I'm sure that it can be sized up to 40 reasonably and perhaps fit a date at 3/6 in place of the indices comfortably if that were to be done. The second probably would look kind of comical if it were too small.


I think leaving the lume on the counterbalance of the second hand is a great idea if you are removing it from the end of the second hand. Accentuates your logo without having two lights spinning. Just wondering if you tried the white lines on the dial without the numerals and the triangle shape between the numerals and the indices? Was it still too empty?


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## JimFava

Karriope said:


> Thanks for elaborating. I had a very distinct idea in mind for the first one, so I would not be especially keen to change it up a lot unless the design is outright unpopular. If I want to ride the apparently ongoing vintage wave, I thought it might work for that.
> 
> For the indices on the second design, I originally designed that shape to incorporate a date window at 6'o'clock for an older design, but did not use them in the end. The date would have gone into the hexagon portion and all indices would have outline-style lume save for 12 having solid. I'm still not sure they work all around rather than on cardinals only.
> I'm actually strongly considering removing the numerals and the white lines from the main dial to clean up a bit, but the dial felt strangely empty without them.
> 
> For the seconds counterbalance symbol, I'm quite certain its not a detail I want to remove - it's inspired, but from where it comes from it's a detail I really like. Maybe taking the lume off might make it less distracting, another option could be to have a nonluminous tip so only the counterbalance glows for the seconds, which would be a bit like how some Seikos have a lume tail instead, which still qualifies for a "running in the dark underwater indication".
> As you suggest, maybe it should be smaller - but for now I'll have to find out what would be the size it can actually be manufactured in!
> 
> For size, I'm also wondering how viable it is to offer either design in multiple sizes. As far as I know, for the wider world, 40mm is in, but 39mm and below is seeing a strong comeback. The first design I feel would be best to retain a classic size of 37.5mm, but I'm sure that it can be sized up to 40 reasonably and perhaps fit a date at 3/6 in place of the indices comfortably if that were to be done. The second probably would look kind of comical if it were too small.


I think leaving the lume on the counterbalance of the second hand is a great idea if you are removing it from the end of the second hand. Accentuates your logo without having two lights spinning. Just wondering if you tried the white lines on the dial without the numerals and the triangle shape between the numerals and the indices? Was it still too empty?


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> I think leaving the lume on the counterbalance of the second hand is a great idea if you are removing it from the end of the second hand. Accentuates your logo without having two lights spinning. Just wondering if you tried the white lines on the dial without the numerals and the triangle shape between the numerals and the indices? Was it still too empty?


I haven't tried simplifying the dial in that manner. I think I would prefer to keep the triangular point of the indices however.
For the numerals, I can see how it looks without those but the white lines. Another thing I'm wondering is whether I ought to use 12 hour or 24 hour numerals.


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## JimFava

Karriope said:


> I haven't tried simplifying the dial in that manner. I think I would prefer to keep the triangular point of the indices however.
> For the numerals, I can see how it looks without those but the white lines. Another thing I'm wondering is whether I ought to use 12 hour or 24 hour numerals.


What about leaving the triangular shape at the 3, 6, and 9... the way you have it lumed?


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## daves2889

Idea for you to implement the date at 6 without chaning current design. How about the instead of a marker at six, you use the shape as a dial cutout to show the date wheel below? Then, if you lumed the entire datewheel, you'd not really notice any break in symmetry in the dark, if you follow what I mean?


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## t3tan3k

I really like the second one (like the first one too, but not a fan of white/light dials). Has that aggressive samurai-like angled lugs and an interesting play on the round indices look. I have a few suggestions/comments:

1. I feel that the inner ring of blue 24 hour indices is distracting and dates the dial with (for me) allusions to Hamilton-type field watch dials.. You got a really cool Hex/Diamond-index design, I would like to see what this one will look like if you really go full bore with those and make them somewhat (or much-) larger while removing the 24 hour scale and keeping the 12-4-8 guide-lines..

2. The particular "purplish" hue of the color blue you use doesn't sing to me, I just photoshopped it into a "desaturated sky-blue" using Hue-Saturation controls and am liking that much better.. Personal preference obviously.


Anyway, those are my thoughts, love the lume layout too!


t3tan3k


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> What about leaving the triangular shape at the 3, 6, and 9... the way you have it lumed?


That might work, yeah.



daves2889 said:


> Idea for you to implement the date at 6 without chaning current design. How about the instead of a marker at six, you use the shape as a dial cutout to show the date wheel below? Then, if you lumed the entire datewheel, you'd not really notice any break in symmetry in the dark, if you follow what I mean?


I _originally_ came up with the shape to actually fit a date window at six inside the luminous shape, making all markers 'hollow' save for 12'o'clock. However, to fit the date window cleanly in the marker at a 40mm size instead of a 38mm size, would require a considerably smaller dial, or a much larger indice. 
A luminous date wheel sounds good, and I kinda intend to find out how viable that is for manufacture. Draken managed that on the Kalahari, but the Kalahari has a very small date wheel rather than a full-size one. Apart from the cost of the lume material there's actually also the fact that adding lume does add weight which can affect drive characteristics.



t3tan3k said:


> I really like the second one (like the first one too, but not a fan of white/light dials). Has that aggressive samurai-like angled lugs and an interesting play on the round indices look. I have a few suggestions/comments:
> 
> 1. I feel that the inner ring of blue 24 hour indices is distracting and dates the dial with (for me) allusions to Hamilton-type field watch dials.. You got a really cool Hex/Diamond-index design, I would like to see what this one will look like if you really go full bore with those and make them somewhat (or much-) larger while removing the 24 hour scale and keeping the 12-4-8 guide-lines..
> 
> 2. The particular "purplish" hue of the color blue you use doesn't sing to me, I just photoshopped it into a "desaturated sky-blue" using Hue-Saturation controls and am liking that much better.. Personal preference obviously.
> 
> Anyway, those are my thoughts, love the lume layout too!
> 
> t3tan3k


Thanks for your feedback! Perhaps you'd like the first one in the black or navy color way?

I was having a hard time with the rehaut for number two. Perhaps I might play with the color more, but somehow I found I liked the deep blue color that I landed on, I'd guess to contrast with the sky blue of the first design. I'll toy with some other colors. When you said dates it to Hamilton Fields, I suppose you mean it makes it feel older?
Said blue ring is actually a two-tier sloping rehaut with hexagonal 'platforms' where the numerals sit, I thought it would make for an interesting aspect to create some depth to the dial. I would actually proportionately prefer to make the rehaut much thinner, but it's also possible making them any smaller would make the numbers hard to actually read.
I'm considering separating the logo from the indices and going back to a design with different quarter indices like an older one, but someone suggested I try this layout. If I make the indices larger I can fit a date window, but I'd have to find some way to fill the resulting gulf between the edge of the dial and the location of the date.
Just to be clear, the guide lines are also at 10 and 2. There's six of them. But somehow I'm wondering if keeping just 12-4-6-8 actually makes for a nicer look, a sort of 'futuristic crosshair'. Somehow I do think they spruce up the dial a little without distracting too much...
In terms of the actual dial color, I think I'd try to go for a solid deep black, the kind that kinda just sucks up all light, if I was doing this particular combination.


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## t3tan3k

All of this makes sense of course. One thing is that the "blue ring" is not what i was referring to, i was talking about the 24 hour inner scale in blue that i wasn't a big fan of. The blue chapter ring looks great tk me as is!


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## Karriope

t3tan3k said:


> All of this makes sense of course. One thing is that the "blue ring" is not what i was referring to, i was talking about the 24 hour inner scale in blue that i wasn't a big fan of. The blue chapter ring looks great tk me as is!


Ah, okay. Yeah, I'm thinking it might be superfluous!

Here are the alternate color versions of Latitude both meant to feature larger quantities of lume:








On the dark blue version the hash marks will probably be made white.

Could I get some feedback on the handset too?

Just for kicks here's a dial design that I ended up not using:


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## t3tan3k

Hah i actually photoshopped the large 3-6-9 hex indices on your design yesterday but decided not to post - looked very similar to the above except with large segmented hex at 12 )) i agree that the original one you posted looks better.. 

Regarding hands, i dont mind the counterweight on seconds and like the shape and the chevron shape on hours. I do think that minutes are too narrow for me maybe.. i think since its syringe sape and lumed different color, you could make it the same width or close to it?..


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## t3tan3k

Oh and i love updated Latitude, that looks really sharp!! Love the hands on this and the indices look very refined! 

I think it completely transformed with blue dial - i dont even mind the 24h scale on this version.


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## spliffsperlunk

The "Latitude Blak Edition" , I really like the look of that mock up.


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## JimFava

Latitude with darker dials look great!


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## JimFava

Design 2, still thinking markers at 3,6,9 could work as in your discarded option if smaller. Same size as other indices with the triangle shape added.


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## Karriope

Glad you like the alternative colors. I'm considering alternative colors for Atlantica, and also have a simple packaging box design.

Would you think Swiss Made or Japanese Made would be worth a higher price?


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## JimFava

Swiss= more $


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> Swiss= more $


Well, definitely. But I mean, do you think that it'd be meaningful to be Swiss Made or Made in Japan as opposed to neither?


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## JimFava

I it's easier to sell a less expensive product and increase prices based on success.


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> I it's easier to sell a less expensive product and increase prices based on success.


Hmm. Okay. Starting with lower ambitions is a sound way of looking at things.

On the other hand, here's a white Atlantica with no 24 scale.


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## JimFava

I like that! What do you think?


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> I like that! What do you think?


It does make for a cleaner, less technical look, and I do think it could work. Perhaps with a slight extension to the decorative lines.

Here's a side-by-side of the intended sizes of both watches:


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## JimFava

Do you think you will try both or pick one to make?


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## Karriope

JimFava said:


> Do you think you will try both or pick one to make?


For now I'd like to focus on one, then return to the other later.
But if it's viable to do them simultaneously, that would be nice, but they don't really share a theme so they might feel really peculiar coming out together!


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## Karriope

Here's a revision of Atlantica with date.


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## Karriope

Update: here are some color ideas.


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## alitaher2009

i would go with first design... the blend of colors 
looking pretty amazing on the dial.


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## T1TactWatch

The Nero-Noire is my favorite.


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## Karriope

T1TactWatch said:


> The Nero-Noire is my favorite.


A black-black type are you? I do like the all-dark look myself, I think it goes well with the design.
I'm also considering red and green schemes and renaming 'Seafarer' to 'Have-Blue'. Feel free to suggest a certain color combination, though I've mainly gone with cold, grayscale and sea-like colors to fit with the theme of the watch.



alitaher2009 said:


> i would go with first design... the blend of colors
> looking pretty amazing on the dial.


By this, do you mean Latitude (the classic-style watch with white dial and blue rehaut) or the original Atlantica (the black dial with blue ring watch), or the first from the left in the color palette above? (Nero-Noire Atlantica)


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## Crash_D

First one by a country mile


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## Karriope

Crash_D said:


> First one by a country mile


Are you referring to Latitude?

Speaking of Latitude, I tried a rendering of it in a open environment.









But I've also since then made some updates to it - the logo is now a flat applique and has been repositioned. The bezel has been changed and the finishes of the rendering have been changed to their original intent.
And I have a full set of colorways, including a revised black and special edition.








I find it surprising how much the personality of the design seems to change by coloring the bezel top surface black.

As for Atlantica, I also have another rendering of it - a close up in the Have Blue variant.


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## Karriope

Another side-by-side but in rendering...


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## JamieWF

I like the one on the right



Karriope said:


> Another side-by-side but in rendering...


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## Karriope

t3tan3k said:


> 1. I feel that the inner ring of blue 24 hour indices is distracting and dates the dial with (for me) allusions to Hamilton-type field watch dials.. You got a really cool Hex/Diamond-index design, I would like to see what this one will look like if you really go full bore with those and make them somewhat (or much-) larger while removing the 24 hour scale and keeping the 12-4-8 guide-lines..


Returning to this comment; I've gotten around to making a maxi-dial version of Atlantica that is the same size and position all around as a date-window and drops the 24 hour numerals. Due to the location of the date, it cramps the dial a bit more, whereas if the size had been increased to this point without moving the indices inwards it might look less so. I feel the smaller indices have a certain elegance that large ones don't, however.








I personally don't like it, but it still looks serviceable.

Among other things I've been refining, is the crown size - I personally thought it looked a bit small, and feedback I received agreed with that. Here's a comparison of the new crown size.









Made prior to that, though, this is the new main render;









And a full palette!








The Have-Blue dial is likely to be adjusted to a more typical darker blue.


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## BavarianZHP

Your concepts and renders are nice! Which software are you using btw?

I really like the Latitude concept! For the Atlantica, I'd probably skip the textured dial (looks like it is like a subtle cross hatch pattern in one of the renders) and just do a flat matte dial. For crown sizes I personally like 6.5 mm diameter crowns (or anything close to that +/- 0.5 mm). It's an eye-catching design! My favorite color is the black nero-noire.


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## Karriope

BavarianZHP said:


> Your concepts and renders are nice! Which software are you using btw?
> 
> I really like the Latitude concept! For the Atlantica, I'd probably skip the textured dial (looks like it is like a subtle cross hatch pattern in one of the renders) and just do a flat matte dial. For crown sizes I personally like 6.5 mm diameter crowns (or anything close to that +/- 0.5 mm). It's an eye-catching design! My favorite color is the black nero-noire.


Thanks for commenting! I'm really hoping to get more feedback, positive ones are encouraging, but constructively critical ones, especially on function, would be great right now.

Having a specific number given for the crown diameter is great - currently, it's 5.7mm, up from being originally 5mm. The smallish crown is due to it being designed to be stunningly thin with a slim midcase, so to keep symmetry, avoid overhang and overlapping the bezel, I set it at 5mm initially. I upped it in response to more people confirming my feeling that the crown looked disproportionately small and possibly fiddly to use.
I'm not likely to do an oversized crown such as with Nick's Orion Calamity, as I feel that doesn't match Atlantica's sleek angular look. But I think I can upsize it to 6mm, or 6.25mm, depending on the final thickness of the case.

The dial texturing on the Have-Blue variant is a light etching of the logo in tessellation. It's more subtle on the earlier rendering above (then labelled Seafarer), perhaps due to the more strong navy blue color on that versus the more light-water blue tone it is now (plan to adjust that). It's probably not for everyone, but I thought it might produce something different.
I'm expecting the Nero-Noire variant to be popular given how people like black divers in general. I think in real life the combination of a matte textured dial with a lightly glossy finished chapter ring will be both understated and contrasty at the same time.
For the original black-blue variant, I'm hoping to be able to use the kind of inky black look for the main dial that seems textureless (think Chronotechna or Doug's No.4) to really create a blank background for the dial details. For Silber, I want to use something akin to automotive metallic silver and a black ring that has a blue shine to it.

Being eye-catching and aesthetically different is what Atlantica's all about - it has no references. I really am hoping that I can bring something different and new looking with it, hopefully.

Latitude on the other hand is acknowledging the vintage trends, yet not paying tribute to any one famous watch. If you have something to add on it as well, I'd love to know.

In regards to the software I'm using, I'm working with an industry standard CAD package that has an iRay renderer included, plus I do some light post-processing in the typical raster editors if needed.


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## Karriope

i.sabin19 said:


> Both are magnificent. Black one !


Thank you. The black versions seem to be a favorite so far...

I'm working out aspects related to making the designs ... well, producible. For Latitude Classico; the bezel is part of that. Do you guys think an _insert_ is better, or would you like the idea of alluding to classic plastic bezel skindivers with an _all-black bezel_? I'm leaning towards the latter.








Other things coming up as issues that might not translate well to production are the 'hidden' lume outlines on the white dial. 
I'm also planning on reworking the case profile to give it a more slender looking mid-case as opposed to the slab-sided look it has now - does anyone think that would be better?

It's very unlikely I'll be able to do a custom bracelet for Atlantica, but the idea I came up with is something like this.








Unfortunately, I've obviously messed up on the model here - finish and that endlink are both wrong - but I think you can get the idea. Worry not, this is a work in progress, I'm going to revisit this when I have time.
Latitude will probably have an oyster-style bracelet, if I can make it an option.


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## daves2889

I do like the way the atlantica is progressing! 

I liek the coloured chapter ring, and I also like the large indices version. If you went with the larger indices, I'd make the coloured chapter ring a bit narrower though.

Overall, really good! Your rendering skills are great


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## Karriope

daves2889 said:


> I do like the way the atlantica is progressing!
> 
> I liek the coloured chapter ring, and I also like the large indices version. If you went with the larger indices, I'd make the coloured chapter ring a bit narrower though.
> 
> Overall, really good! Your rendering skills are great


Thanks! It seems this really is a thing where you feel like continously changing things... I used to have an interest in CGI rendering long ago that gave way to just raster artwork, it's turning out to be helpful now.
The colored chapter ring is definitely what I'd consider one of its signature details, so I'm glad you like it. If I made it narrower on the maxi-dial version though, that would probably skew the proportions and increase empty space on the dial. I could compensate with a wider bezel, however.
On the whole though, I think I'm unlikely to use the maxi-dial variant. But perhaps I can revisit the style in the future.
I'm thinking that the watch head for Atlantica is more or less down, aesthetically. I think I might do a pass on the crown guards and see what else I want to refine and I think the actual thickness of the mid case or the caseback may have to go up which may affect the lug profile, though my thickness target is still 12mm or less with a display back. Manufacturer concerns haven't come into the picture on Atlantica which means things could get changed up a lot more when it's analyzed...









Latitude, on the other hand, I'm progressing on it more as I'm preparing to send a final draft for their technical drafting, plus I wanted to fix up all the little things in the model that I personally felt needed fixing.
So it gives me some pleasure to introduce everyone to version 3 onwards of Latitude. (more angles soon, I might post a side by side of old and new in a while!)








The case profile has been almost completely redone to slimmer than ever, as have the lugs, and the crown guards were just totally redone in a manner I believe more elegant and had hoped for all along. The dial has been brought much closer to the glass as a result, which I hope doesn't have too much effects on its ingress protection.

The dial emblem, I've decided to make it a debossing to make it subtler, adding to the dressy classy feel especially in the icy white dial variant.

Unfortunately, the hidden lume effect where there is outlined lume around the quarter indices, I was told this isn't doable by this particular manufacturer, so the alternative is lume on top of the metal strips.

The arrow hour hand has been modified with some slight projections, I'm kinda on the fence on this one since it makes the shape more detailed but I feel it loses some of the 'vintage' feel. The minute hand was lengthened to touch the center of the lume dots and I returned the tip to its original sharp end rather than curved to match the other two hands. Seconds hand remains speartipped (or Milsub if you will), but the counterbalance has been made larger. I know some of you think the counterbalance should be smaller, but the original was barely a millimetre wide and had spokes that were 50 _microns_ wide, which I believe would be unmanufacturable without specialized equipment. In real life it would have been so small you likely would need a macro lens of magnifying glass to see what it is - to put things into perspective, 50 microns is less than the width of a typical human hair, while the upsized version at 100 microns wide is still well less than ~180 upper range of human hairs. 100 microns is 0.1mm and 0.00393 of an inch!

Another issue I'm facing is that the manufacturer tells me that as exact parts alignment cannot be guaranteed, they recommend changing the bezel start marker to use a different shape rather than with a stripe. Manufacturing tolerances mean alignment won't always be perfect, doubtlessly, but having the stripe will make any misalignment present between the dial, rehaut and bezel significantly more obvious. However, this style was kind of intended from the start and I'm not so keen on changing it, but I'm considering other options such as a circular mark within the triangle instead. I'd like to know everyone's thoughts.

Other to-do is the rotor, I'm told that applying lume to the rotor is technically very challenging and prone to damaging it or other issues such as getting lume particles in the movement or just plain affecting winding properties. It's also impractical and has little benefit as it's not exposed to light under most circumstances, so you'd need to expressly charge the lume for the shot. I know it -can- be done, shout out to Draken here, but it takes some special effort.
At any rate, that's why none of my shots show the casebacks. I have a custom rotor designed already for Atlantica, but I don't want to get anyone's hopes up.


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## Karriope

Couple of Latitude bits for today;

NATO strap suggestion?









And the line of evolution...


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## Karriope

Latitude colorways updated.










And, if the bezel alignment thing turns out to be a problem, these are the other alternatives I've thought of;


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## Panerol Forte

I just discovered your thread... very nice work you did there. I can see a very interesting watch in the making... I will certainly keep an eye on this thread. Keep on the good work! Cheers..


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## crystalclearwatchmaking

Wow, extremely good work! I like the alternative bezels, and wonder if they might look interesting if a circle of the same size and spacing as the minutes was circumscribed in the triangles at 5 and 15.

Overall, amazing work. Brands would be lucky to have you!


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## Karriope

Panerol Forte said:


> I just discovered your thread... very nice work you did there. I can see a very interesting watch in the making... I will certainly keep an eye on this thread. Keep on the good work! Cheers..


I hope to have some physical to show soon, thanks.



crystalclearwatchmaking said:


> Wow, extremely good work! I like the alternative bezels, and wonder if they might look interesting if a circle of the same size and spacing as the minutes was circumscribed in the triangles at 5 and 15.
> 
> Overall, amazing work. Brands would be lucky to have you!


Thanks for the compliment. I quite like your idea and went to see how it looks...it turns out I'm actually not so sure it looks nice when implemented. What's your take? 









For more stuff, the Classico variant if it was using a bezel insert would end up looking something like this:









And here are the Origins and Blak Edition with NATOs as well;


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## Karriope

Alright, if anyone's still checking around here, I'm just about to send my final drawings for Latitude. It's the last chance to throw an idea at me.

I also want some opinions regarding the crystal. Given Latitude is a classic vintage-inspired model, do you prefer the retro heavy distortion of a single-domed crystal, or the clarity and higher thinness of a double-domed crystal?


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## MS_original

I like the larger 40mm one, especially the two color bezel design


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## Karriope

I'm back... I've done some tweaking to Atlantica's crown-side - It now has an asymmetric midcase shape to better shroud the inner edge of the crown and the crown guards have been buffed, as well as wrapping around the crown a little bit.

Leftmost is the original, middle fully wraps the crown, while the right is a version that tapers to expose more of the crown's top to make it easier to use.









here's the oblique view of the new crown guard versions;









Like to know what everyone thinks - whether it's better to keep the block guards that don't wrap the crown or go with one of the newer ones, and whether to keep the guards at the larger size. Larger guards of course have various implications such as weight.


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## watchobs

Though I feel the original has a more ascetically pleasing overall look, I would prefer the more pragmatic design update of model # 3.


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## Karriope

watchobs said:


> Though I feel the original has a more ascetically pleasing overall look, I would prefer the more pragmatic design update of model # 3.


I personally prefer the original from a top-angle too, but for now I'm likely to stick with the third iteration of the crown guards, since it should offer the best blend of function, form and ease of use. The additional taper also creates a more geometric faceted look from the top, which I think adds to the aesthetic!
Thanks for your feedback!


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## Karriope

Here are the three variants of the crown guards side by side:









I can't help but feel I might've made the crown itself too thick now...


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## watchobs

Karriope said:


> Here are the three variants of the crown guards side by side:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can't help but feel I might've made the crown itself too thick now...


 I would tend to agree with your assessment of the crown, That, and it would also appear that with how smooth you've made the crown itself, it might make it rather difficult to extract the crown, based on the newly extended crown guards.


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## Karriope

watchobs said:


> I would tend to agree with your assessment of the crown, That, and it would also appear that with how smooth you've made the crown itself, it might make it rather difficult to extract the crown, based on the newly extended crown guards.


The crown has six deep ridges cut into its edges, I'm uncertain how grippy it would be in practice, but it looks smoother in the renderer than it actually is.
The current depth of the crown is 3.25mm


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## Karriope

Here's Atlantica on a NATO. Somehow to me it hasn't got the same visual impact as the fitted rubber...


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## Karriope

Hey guys. I've been on and off working on some steady refinements to both designs, and hopefully will be making some big moves very soon.

For now, here's a peek at the fully revised case of Atlantica.


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## uperhemi

Karriope said:


> Hey guys. I've been on and off working on some steady refinements to both designs, and hopefully will be making some big moves very soon.
> 
> For now, here's a peek at the fully revised case of Atlantica.


This design of crown guards is definitely unique (or at least rare). I've seen your earlier design from vintage Benrus or MKII's Paradive, but now yours seems to have a good balance from both designs from earlier post. Looking great!


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## watchobs

Karriope said:


> Hey guys. I've been on and off working on some steady refinements to both designs, and hopefully will be making some big moves very soon.
> 
> For now, here's a peek at the fully revised case of Atlantica.


Between the favorable changes you've made, and hopefully coming up as true to rendering form as you can in the institution on your chosen color combinations, I'm sure hoping the potential for possible "big moves" involve "soon to be" production of your very worthy concepts, on both models. This concept needs to now find, true life. My only other hope is that it can stay in an reasonably affordable price range ;-) .


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## Karriope

uperhemi said:


> This design of crown guards is definitely unique (or at least rare). I've seen your earlier design from vintage Benrus or MKII's Paradive, but now yours seems to have a good balance from both designs from earlier post. Looking great!


Thanks for commenting; I certainly want to get a truly distinct look that is recognizable. I was not referencing the Benrus and its homages, but I was wondering if anyone would compare it to the Benrus' unique asymmetric case with shrouded crown. I'm hoping it is a favorable point! It gives an unmistakeable silhouette from the face, and I have obsessively redesigned the profile of the guards so that the edges form the angle of an even hexagon (60°) while continuing the leading line from the tip of the lugs.
With the taper towards the now relatively large crown, I am expecting the crown to be easy to grip despite being (I think) fully protected.



watchobs said:


> Between the favorable changes you've made, and hopefully coming up as true to rendering form as you can in the institution on your chosen color combinations, I'm sure hoping the potential for possible "big moves" involve "soon to be" production of your very worthy concepts, on both models. This concept needs to now find, true life. My only other hope is that it can stay in an reasonably affordable price range ;-) .


Thank you very much for the encouragement! I'm attempting to secure the means to go to prototyping and while I have doubts, thoughts like these tell me to keep going. I'm likely to have both concepts developed simultaneously, both fulfilling different roles.

While I don't imagine that Latitude will end up dramatically different from the renders, Atlantica's design may prove to be more challenging to realize exactly as seen here, given the unprecedented target thickness. I also do not have its material choices down (particularly whether to go for a ceramic bezel scale or the conceptualized sapphire).
Additionally, while I am quite clear on how I expect to be able to _produce_ the intended colors, but as I want to bring out Atlantica's dial in its lead colorway by using a _vantablack_-like finish, that obviously depends on whether that's available.
As for your other hope... yes! Me too!

For fun, I did a half-and-half cut image of the earlier iterations of Atlantica and the current. It's changed, yet it's always been Atlantica!


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## Karriope

Experimenting with alternate crowns:


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## watchobs

Karriope said:


> Experimenting with alternate crowns:


Personally I'm a fan of #3, but, this would also be contingent on the color scheme of the rest of the watch.


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## Karriope

watchobs said:


> Personally I'm a fan of #3, but, this would also be contingent on the color scheme of the rest of the watch.


Hmm. I'm expecting this would be produced by molding, then finished appropriately with the white-glow lume filled in the recesses. It's more of an experiment to subtly put the emblem in.
I'm most likely to stick with the previous iteration of the crown, which has an anodized textured recess with a lume-filled engraving of the insignia.

Can you elaborate a bit more about how the color scheme would relate?


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## neilziesing

I really prefer the first one - the Latitude. Nice clean design and would make such an excellent SUmmer watch with that dial.


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## watchobs

watchobs said:


> Personally I'm a fan of #3, but, this would also be contingent on the color scheme of the rest of the watch.


My bad! I took your crown choices completely out of context! That said, I'm still a fan primarily of #3, with #1 being a close second.


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## Karriope

watchobs said:


> My bad! I took your crown choices completely out of context! That said, I'm still a fan primarily of #3, with #1 being a close second.


Do you think it's better to have the lume as an outline like these examples, or the symbol in the lume as with previous variants?

Another idea I'm considering is to use a monocoque case. Does anyone have an opinion on that?


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## Karriope

Hero render redone.









The idea of doing a monocoque case could open up some more creative options with the caseback, but as with everything there are downsides.









I'm also curious to find out from everyone, for a serious diver/tool watch, do you prefer pure sapphire crystal or a sapphire-coated mineral crystal, which is more shatter resistant, but presumably less scratch-resistant?


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## Karriope

double post


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## rr82

Karriope said:


> Seeing as the original thread I made is about a different watch concept and I have two newer ones that I want to focus on, guess it was time to make a new thread.
> 
> Backstory's the same... since delving further into the despairity of WISdom, I started to try making watch designs and shared them with some friends, so I naturally got the suggestion that I could try getting my own made.
> 
> This time around, I have two designs that I think I would want to try to work on for production and possible launch; a more classical "nautical inspired" desk-diver, a boating watch, perhaps, and an aggressive, chunky tool watch more in line with my anti-minimalist aesthetic.
> Since I have two very different styles of watch here, I'm thinking which I might want to dedicate resources towards making a prototype. Which would you think? Both are currently specified with the premium series Miyotas, but I'd also consider making them with Swiss movements if viable.
> 
> First, the classic style desk-diver. My intent with this was to get an older looking design with some vintage-esque inspiration in a vintage size and thinner profile. I'd intend surfaces to be a mixture of brushing and polished. Lume is minimal for a more classic look, but on a version with a silver/white dial like this the BGW9 on the dial would be 'hidden'. A full-lume dial or lume on the indices is also possible. I'd also consider making this with a sterile dial (no logo). Ignore the plain stock image for the movement, I'd intend a custom rotor at the very least, if additional decoration is hard to get.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case diameter: 37.5mm
> Case lug to lug: 45mm
> Case width including crown: ~39.5mm
> Case thickness including caseback: ~10.5mm
> Overall thickness including box sapphire protrusion: 10.6mm
> Case material: 316L, fine brushed finish, polished bezel edge
> Caseback: Exhibition
> Target water resistance: 150m (15 ATM / 500ft)
> Dial: Ice silver with luminous chapter dots, polished metal applique stick indices (double-stick 12-3-6-9), sloped blue rehaut with luminous numerals
> Bezel: unidirectional 120 click, coarse circular brushed steel with engraved timer markings and 60/0 BGW9 Luminova stripe
> Lume: C3 Luminova (chapter dots), BGW9 Luminova (hidden cardinal lume)
> Crystal: Box sapphire
> Movement: Miyota 9039 (28,800vph, hackable, no date)
> Hands: Arrow hour & pointed stick minute, spearhead seconds, polished finish, Luminova C3
> Strap: Dark blue leather with light blue contrast stitch / black leather with blue contrast stitch / rubber
> 
> Dial variant: Black brushed with polished applique indices, luminous, sloped red rehaut with luminous numerals
> 
> Second up is the more outlandish one, which features a blocky, chunky case design and _lots _of lume. The half-second hashes are supposed to be luminous too but I forgot to apply the property to those.
> I also got feedback that the crown is too small, so I may upsize that. I'm also considering ways to add in a 6'o'clock date that doesn't interfere with the layout too much, as the location of a date wheel isn't something I'd be able to change.
> I'm also considering redesigning it into a variant that uses an internal bezel rotated by an outer bezel, ala IWC SafeDive or the Ball Engineer Master II Diver (Pro), more of the latter. I'm not sure how easy that would be to manufacture, but it would certainly bring in something different. Another strong consideration is that I might try to get this made in a left-hand drive layout (aka Destro).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Case diameter: 40.2mm
> Case lug to lug: 48.45mm
> Case width including crown: ~42.3mm
> Overall target thickness: ~11.8mm
> Case material: 316L, sandblasted & brushed
> Caseback: Exhibition
> Target water resistance: 300m (30ATM, 1,000ft)
> Dial 1: Pure black / black sunburst / micropattern (haven't decided, basically), deep blue tiered rehaut with luminous hashes and numerals
> Dial 2: Dark blue with micropattern, blue rehaut with luminous hashes and numerals
> Dial 3: silver with aquablack rehaut
> Indices: applique metal with luminous segments, sandblasted finish
> Bezel: unidirectional 120 click, sandblasted steel, luminous insert with sapphire glass, different edging from 0-20
> Lume: C3 Luminova / BGW9 mix / White Line on crown & seconds counterbalance
> Crystal: Double domed, ~1.5mm thick
> Movement: Miyota 9039 (28,800vph, hackable, no date)
> Hands: Sandblasted finish, BGW9 seconds/hours, C3 minutes
> Strap: rubber / sandblasted finish bracelet with brushed bevels
> 
> I'm looking for wider feedback on both designs and to decide which I'd like to attempt prototyping first, so hit me!


The first one is gorgeous. Really simple aesthetic and pleasing to the eye. Easy to read as well. Could be 1mm smaller case size. The second watch could benefit from a redesign of the dial, since it's a little too crowded to read easily. Other than that, you are on the right track.


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