# Smaller high-end brands(FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc) vs. the holy trinity (PP, AP, VC)--who wins



## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

I was wondering what you guys think about how the independent high-end brands such as FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc compare to the holy trinity of the haute horologerie brands AP, VC, and PP or maybe including the Lange.

It seems that there are many other smaller brands too, like Roger Dubuois (spell?) and so on.

Besides exclusivity, what do these smaller brand watches offer that justify a higher entry price?
Are the best from these smaller brands better or worse than the best from the holy trinity?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Much lower production numbers and more hands on output.


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## Crunchy (Feb 4, 2013)

*Smaller high-end brands(FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc) vs. the holy trinity...*

i would be worried about service center availability and longevity of the brand.


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## HPoirot (Jan 31, 2011)

*Re: Smaller high-end brands(FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc) vs. the holy trinity...*

Better is a funny word.

Better in what sense?

If we talk about exclusivity, they're way better than the trinity. Workmanship, too might be better in some cases (eg, Laurent Ferrier). More expensive? Definitely.

Price justification is also subjective. If you prefer your $$ to go into complications, then maybe a beautiful, handcrafted FP Journe is 'over-priced'. If you want exclusivity, then the common (relatively) Royal Oak is too expensive.

All houses will have their strong points, you just need to find out which one matches yours.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: Smaller high-end brands(FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc) vs. the holy trinity...*

Why more expensive? exclusivity has a price. A lot of times you can customize more (to a certain degree)with this small independents. 
Better? That's hard to answer, that will have to be answer in a model vs model scenario.

Personally if I am going to expend that kind of money I rather do it on a brand that I know it has history rather to invest on a relatively new brand, regardless if it is small or a big brand. There are some big brands not independent than are relatively new that I wouldn't feel comfortable buying.

Just thoughts..:think:


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

You are paying for the time of someone who is more valuable and exclusivity of something less common and unique.

*Large Conglomerate Brands & Independent Watch Companies:*
Top, historic conglomerate owned "brands" (_A. Lange & Sohne_,_ Breguet_ & _Vacheron Constantin_) and large independent watch companies (_Audemars Piguet_ or _Patek Philippe_) no doubt make fine watches and with a high degree of confidence will be around long after their owners are dead and gone. The level of quality they produce is superb and their distribution and availability while tiny next to say Rolex is relatively large (e.g. Patek likely makes thousands of Calatravas and Nautilus every year).

*Smaller, Independent factory Based Watch Companies:*
Smaller, more recent independent factory based (e.g. many watchmakers) watch companies that are personality driven such as _F.P. Journe_ and _Richard Mille_ make hundreds of watches per year. You indeed are paying for perhaps a small bit of extra detail or complexity in some cases and hand based processes and certainly exclusivity. You do not have the long-term assurance of parts and maintenance like you do with the larger and historic brands.

*Independent Master Craftsmen:*
Lastly, you have watches made by independent master watchmakers like _Philippe Defour_, _Roger Smith_ or _Kari Voutilainen_ who create tens of watches per year. They may have help for certain processes but each watch is supervised and crafted by the master themselves. You are indeed paying for the work of a master craftsman and the exclusivity of something unique. Like the smaller independents, you do not have the long-term assurance of parts and maintenance like you do with the larger and historic brands.

In the end, these watches will be lovingly maintained by some other master watchmaker in the future.



shnjb said:


> I was wondering what you guys think about how the independent high-end brands such as FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc compare to the holy trinity of the haute horologerie brands AP, VC, and PP or maybe including the Lange.
> 
> It seems that there are many other smaller brands too, like Roger Dubuois (spell?) and so on.
> 
> ...


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## GETS (Dec 8, 2011)

Call me a traditionalist but for me it would be the PP or ALS above anything else.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Wow that was edifying.
Thank you.



iim7v7im7 said:


> You are paying for the time of someone who is more valuable and exclusivity of something less common and unique.
> 
> *Large Conglomerate Brands & Independent Watch Companies:*
> Top, historic conglomerate owned "brands" (_A. Lange & Sohne_,_ Breguet_ & _Vacheron Constantin_) and large independent watch companies (_Audemars Piguet_ or _Patek Philippe_) no doubt make fine watches and with a high degree of confidence will be around long after their owners are dead and gone. The level of quality they produce is superb and their distribution and availability while tiny next to say Rolex is relatively large (e.g. Patek likely makes thousands of Calatravas and Nautilus every year).
> ...


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

When dealing with investment pieces, I like to keep in mind that someone, perhaps my heirs, may have need to repair the darn thing at some point in the future. At least with the Maison Ancienne you have someone to call upon. VC, for example, guarantees that it will repair any of their timepieces, even from 1755. The restorations department is a wonderous place to visit...where else can you see an entire tray of vintage minute repeaters? Now cost is another matter...


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## CUSO (Jul 14, 2010)

Here is 1 huge difference. You cant buy a Dufour...

I spent 3 months emailing Dufour 2 years ago. Offering to wire 50k sight unseen for his next watch. Begging practically, and he said he has sold out for the next 10+ years. So it is almost impossible to buy that brand


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Perhaps you should have sent your agent, you may have gotten better results.


CUSO said:


> Here is 1 huge difference. You cant buy a Dufour...
> 
> I spent 3 months emailing Dufour 2 years ago. Offering to wire 50k sight unseen for his next watch. Begging practically, and he said he has sold out for the next 10+ years. So it is almost impossible to buy that brand


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## CUSO (Jul 14, 2010)

Watchbreath said:


> Perhaps you should have sent your agent, you may have gotten better results.


My travel agent? Marketing agent? Career agent? or my secret agent?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Your minion.


CUSO said:


> My travel agent? Marketing agent? Career agent? or my secret agent?


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## CUSO (Jul 14, 2010)

Watchbreath said:


> Your minion.


AHHHHHHH.....

My minions dawdle, they never procure.. Hey, maybe I need a Procurement agent! What do those cost? I do think a secret agent would be more successful though.

My original point being, a Dufour watch may be the hardest thing to obtain in the watch world.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

CUSO said:


> My original point being, a Dufour watch may be the hardest thing to obtain in the watch world.


+1

I've tried emailing him as well but he never even responded to any of my emails.

EDIT:
With regards to the topic of the thread -- FP Journe, Kari Voutilainen, and the like are rare watchmakers who are geniuses in the field of horology.
Most of the time, they build the watch from start to finish. Sometimes without the aid of other hands.
The result is a perfect piece of art, a masterpiece created solely by the master craftsman.

The same thing cannot be said about PP, AP, VC, or ALS.
Half of the work is supervised by machines.
Since there are multiple watchmakers with varying degrees of craftsmanship working on watches, imperfections are inevitable.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

You should order one for your kid or grandchildren!!



CUSO said:


> Here is 1 huge difference. You cant buy a Dufour...
> 
> I spent 3 months emailing Dufour 2 years ago. Offering to wire 50k sight unseen for his next watch. Begging practically, and he said he has sold out for the next 10+ years. So it is almost impossible to buy that brand


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

When you go from 1,000's in production to the 100's or less, everything changes. Exclusivity, price, obscurity, maybe bragging rights - at this level of mechanical art everything flows from the low-production / hands-on / small-scale manufacturing process.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

In terms of the two FP Journe lines that are made of aluminum--- anyone with practical experience in terms of scratches -- dents etc? How does the aluminum compare to steel or the precious metals..


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

*Individual > Small Shop > Large Shop*

Intellectually similar in their ability to conceive horological masterpieces, but Dufour (solo these days, but not always) and Voutilainen (a few watchmakers) are much smaller operations in comparison to Journe. Francois-Paul has ~30 watchmakers at this point and is nearly outputting a 1,000 watches/year. This has more similarity to large shop operations than to Dufour/Voutilainen. The single watchmaker concept does not apply to all operations in the fabrication of a watch. Many of those are just like the historic houses.

Additionally, I disagree with the romantic notion of watchmaking by individual watchmakers in small shops being of inherently higher quality than the larger historic houses. The notion that they have work "supervised by machines" (not sure what that actually means in practice) and this inherently results in imperfection is far from absolute. There are different roads to quality "hell" with each design/build philosophy.

My $.02


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

mark1958 said:


> In terms of the two FP Journe lines that are made of aluminum--- anyone with practical experience in terms of scratches -- dents etc? How does the aluminum compare to steel or the precious metals..


Couldn't say anything about scratches or dings because I have zero experience with that material. But I would be more concern with their resistance to shocks:think:


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

This crossed my mind as well.. Curious if any real experience out there



heuerolexomega said:


> Couldn't say anything about scratches or dings because I have zero experience with that material. But I would be more concern with their resistance to shocks:think:


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: Individual > Small Shop > Large Shop*

I agree and would go farther to state--- human error is more likely to result in some level of error compared to a well run machine -- the ultimate endpoint (in terms of "higher quality") is how good is the QC at the end of each process--- much of which is done by human inspection from what i understand.



iim7v7im7 said:


> Additionally, I disagree with the romantic notion of watchmaking by individual watchmakers in small shops being of inherently higher quality than the larger historic houses. The notion that they have work "supervised by machines" (not sure what that actually means in practice) and this inherently results in imperfection is far from absolute. There are different roads to quality "hell" with each design/build philosophy.
> 
> My $.02


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## gatorforlife (Sep 7, 2013)

*Re: Smaller high-end brands(FP Journe, Philippe Dufour, etc) vs. the holy trinity...*

I agree that finding replacement parts and convenient service centers may be an issue with these brands.


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Re: Individual > Small Shop > Large Shop*



iim7v7im7 said:


> Additionally, I disagree with the romantic notion of watchmaking by individual watchmakers in small shops being of inherently higher quality than the larger historic houses. The notion that they have work "supervised by machines" (not sure what that actually means in practice) and this inherently results in imperfection is far from absolute. There are different roads to quality "hell" with each design/build philosophy.


There are, of course, exemptions to the factors I stated, as with every aspect in this physical, material world we live in.

Notable examples are top-of-the-line Montblanc Villeret pieces and the Credor Minute Repeater, to name a few.
The commitment to perfection by these relatively unknown watchmakers from both large corporations rival that of the independent watchmaker micro-brands.

EDIT:
For those of you Haute Horlogerie afficionados who appreciate the unique Minerva movements, you can visit this site:
http://int.montblanc.com/eng/
(I am not affiliated with Montblanc nor Seiko; merely just a fan of exquisite Haute Horlogerie)


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

*Lets hear from a Master*

Back in 2007, Kari Voutilainen was invited to critically examine the Vacheron Constantin small manual-winding caliber 4400. As one doesn't often get to hear these cross-brand reviews, I'd like to share Kari's comments courtesy of the VC website (also photo credit).









"_My first impression just looking through the case back is that it is a nice clean movement, the balance is not too small which is a good thing. Vacheron Constantin has opted for a classical design and it is obvious that servicing of the movement was in mind, you can see it in the construction.

__The movement has a classical construction and all components are easy to access, you don't need to take the whole movement apart to service or replace the necessary parts. Top quality materials have been used, from the metal of the components to the jewels. I personally would have preferred having not one large bridge but smaller ones. This is however a question of taste and maybe not possible due to certain areas which are too thin to have separate bridges. A large bridge can also be a bit trickier to place correctly as visibility is lower and gears can be damaged if not placed correctly. The bridges are screwed in and not placed on pegs which is the sign of high a quality movement_.

_Vacheron Constantin has decided to jewel many parts, even those which are not traditionally jeweled, this shows great concern for a lasting movement as the less friction there is the longer lasting the parts will be.

Vacheron has opted for a large mainspring barrel and it is a smart move as I'm not for stacked barrels in models having a long power reserves which have long thin springs. There is a lot of friction in the latter and tear and wear is rapid. Here Vacheron has devised a special solution where the mainspring is a regular one but by placing a reverser it has managed to largely increase the power reserve. In the long term this could create some friction on some gears, I prefer a direct contact between the mainspring and the gears but if you want to have a long power reserve I prefer Vacheron's solution to the stacked barrels one._

_The keyless works are very well executed and have a good grip that I like.

__I appreciate the regulating system as well, it is well executed, by turning the screw of the balance spring stud you can easily and precisely regulate the watch without any friction_.

_It's easy to regulate and we can rapidly reach a +1/+2 seconds a day rate result, they're not selling the watch as a chronometer? They should! The tolerances are low and the rate difference between all positions is null, the caliber shows a very stable rate in all positions and this is an excellent surprise.

This regulating system is also very sturdy and in case of a shock the index regulator will not move._

_The Geneva waves are very well done, often the end of the stroke is less than satisfactory but here they are perfect. I particularly like the interior angles which are seen less and less and I'm impressed that Vacheron Constantin uses this method since it is quite a difficult finish execution. The interior angles are a bit too inward but it shows that they are made by hand_.
_
The bevels are very very well done, they are consistent and regular which is a proof of good craftsmanship. I personally would have liked to see more visible thicker angles but that's just a matter of taste.

__The perlage on the top plate under the dial is also very nice even though they are not of the same size in the centre, this could just be a design choice. Vacheron Constantin has given high aesthetic finish to parts no one other than a watchmaker who will take the watch apart can see. I'm impressed.

The sunburst finish of the barrel is really well done and the screws seem to have inward angled heads which is great_!

_I'm very impressed with the movement construction and finish. The movement is easy and logical to assemble, all parts fit in perfectly. You tell me this is a base movement? Then what a base movement! Finishing a movement to be used in very small quantities is something, having a movement with this type of finish in what will be made in large amounts is something thoroughly different! The quality of this movement is much higher than what we see in other high end brands. This is the first modern caliber I see finished so well."
_


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

*Re: Lets hear from a Master*

^
Not sure if Kari is over-praising the brand or a fan of the brand,
Or if he hasn't seen movements from other brands, like Bovet or Laurent Ferrier.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: Lets hear from a Master*



entropy96 said:


> ^
> Not sure if Kari is over-praising the brand or a fan of the brand,
> Or if he hasn't seen movements from other brands, like Bovet or Laurent Ferrier.


This is PR. He could not have made the review just to bash them (and VC would have never let this happen). That said, his argument and analysis make perfect sense to me.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

*Re: Lets hear from a Master*



Galactic Sushiman said:


> This is PR. He could not have made the review just to bash them (and VC would have never let this happen). That said, his argument and analysis make perfect sense to me.


+1


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

I like the vast majority of the smaller brands. The only thing that concerns me about buying their wares is service, not so much the cost of it, but just the timelines and availability of it.

A lot of those brands/guys do great stuff, but in doing it, they sometimes they "reinvent wheels" that don't need reinventing. For me, especially in simple movement pieces, just doing an excellent job of executing things in much the same way others do, but putting one's own "artistic/aesthetic stamp" on it is enough.

I don't care how "masterful" it may be to make a watch that can, say, mechanically present both standard time and sidereal time as observed on Bora Bora, that sort of thing would be a total PITA to take to my local watch-guy for a quick tune up. For that reason, I think were I to buy arcane complications, or even just grand complications, I'd choose a watch from a company I am not worried about them as a going concern be it now or twenty years from now.

All the best.

Do you think, because I am poor, obscure, plain and little, I am soulless and heartless?
- Charlotte Bronte, _Jane Eyre_


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Buying a piece from Philippe Dufour's line wouldnt be a problem because his pieces are fairly basic in function. You would just have to find a really experienced watchmaker to service it for you as once Dufour is gone...he's gone.

FPJ, on the other hand, would not be someone to worry about since he is an independent that slightly expanded to a team of watchmakers. He merely supervises and runs the show but in essence he is a full functioning company...just really small. Once he goes, i would assume the worst case scenario is Richmont or Swatch would take over the brand, plus we are likely to notice a steep climb in his prices and some odd designs that will likely fail. Journe himself is about passion whereas Swatch/Richmont is about money so you will definitely notice that come into play.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

AbuKalb93 said:


> Buying a piece from Philippe Dufour's line wouldnt be a problem because his pieces are fairly basic in function. You would just have to find a really experienced watchmaker to service it for you as once Dufour is gone...he's gone.
> 
> FPJ, on the other hand, would not be someone to worry about since he is an independent that slightly expanded to a team of watchmakers. He merely supervises and runs the show but in essence he is a full functioning company...just really small. Once he goes, i would assume the worst case scenario is Richmont or Swatch would take over the brand, plus we are likely to notice a steep climb in his prices and *some odd designs* that will likely fail. Journe himself is about passion whereas Swatch/Richmont is about money so you will definitely notice that come into play.


That is one thing that that one cannot seem to get around: once a brand becomes quite "big," it's less and less likely to toy with polarizing styles and approaches. That's not to say they don't innovate, but just that they do so in ways that can be deployed to large quantities of buyers. AP seems to push the edge a little bit, and even thinking several ROOs are hideous, I applaud AP for having the pluck to make them.

All the best.

I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin, but you begin anyway and see it through no matter what.
- Harper Lee, _To Kill a Mockingbird_


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> That is one thing that that one cannot seem to get around: once a brand becomes quite "big," it's less and less likely to toy with polarizing styles and approaches. That's not to say they don't innovate, but just that they do so in ways that can be deployed to large quantities of buyers. AP seems to push the edge a little bit, and even thinking several ROOs are hideous, I applaud AP for having the pluck to make them.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> ...


Well, looking at Journe's line, all his pieces practically look the same (ill get heat for this), they share the same base look to be more exact. His movements are all different but then again, it is a small line. His Octa is his automatic line with the time on the right and complications on the left,thats what i mean by basic look. It's more of developing a "style". Then again, every dial is designed from the ground up before the movement is placed and he is one of the few brands that actually do that.

What i meant was, we are probably going to see some FPJ Offshore once he goes, and thank god im privileged to get my hands on the current Journe line in 30 days. (Just placed a special order yesterday).


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

tony20009 said:


> That is one thing that that one cannot seem to get around: once a brand becomes quite "big," it's less and less likely to toy with polarizing styles and approaches. That's not to say they don't innovate, but just that they do so in ways that can be deployed to large quantities of buyers. AP seems to push the edge a little bit, and even thinking several ROOs are hideous, I applaud AP for having the pluck to make them.
> ...
> 
> 
> ...


No flack here. I agree with you. Actually, as go the three brands that this thread is about, I'd say the same thing. Not in terms of specifics, but rather that there's one look that's exploited consistently in pretty much all his pieces, and the differences are merely the result of necessity due to the complications in the various pieces. I agree that's not different the way Calatrava differs from Nautilus, but then it s also not different the way Jacob & Co doesn't have any one watch that looks like the others. Neither is it different in the way Arnold & Son's instrument collection or Royal Collection pieces differ among themselves as well as, often enough, from pretty much everything on the market.

I really meant "small brands" as a class and not so much specifically FPJ, PD or PSM in particular. PSM, of the three, seems to offer the greatest departure from the purely conventional, although even there, it's not that great a step apart.

All the best.

The world is not ready for some people when they show up, but that shouldn't stop anyone.
- Ashley Lorenzana


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## Doug Rees (Apr 18, 2014)

I personally have lust in my heart for a Philippe Dufour watch. I don't care if Dufour is slow, difficult, doesn't answer his emails, etc. etc. He may swipe candy bars from the local supermarket, for all I know--but I DON'T CARE! The man is a consummate artist, and that's enough.

I don't think terms like "better" really have much meaning at this level. But I will say this: If you own a PP, or a Lange, or an AP, you're part of a small elite. But, if you own a Dufour, or a George Daniels, or a Roger Smith--you're royalty!


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Doug Rees said:


> ...
> I don't think terms like "better" really have much meaning at this level. But I will say this: If you own a PP, or a Lange, or an AP, you're part of a small elite. But, if you own a Dufour, or a George Daniels, or a Roger Smith--you're royalty!


I don't buy that at all. Royalty? Elite? Those monikers may apply to the watches, but certainly not to the person who happens to buy one. Not in any way, shape or form.

In matters of popularity, status and prestige, it is always the status of the watch owner that transfers to the watchmaker/watch company/brand. It is never the other way around. You know this is true because if one were the very first person to buy a watch from a given maker and one were truly a king (or some other honored personage), what would then become of the status of the watch and the fellow who makes it? Now ask the same question if the first person to buy the watch is your plumber who just won the lottery.

Another way you know that status doesn't work the way you described is because of the phenomenon of celebrity endorsements. Although the marketing line says that you are capturing a piece of the luminary's glamor by buying the thing they are promoting, the fact is you aren't. Once you acquire a celebrity thing, do people invite you to more receiving lines and take your picture? Do you get your photo taken on the "red carpet?" Of course not. The celebrity can put the watch "on the map," but the item they promote cannot boost the fortunes and worth of the consumer (unless of course the consumer is also a paid endorser).

All the best.


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