# Kingston vs. Raven Vintage



## Choppee (Jan 10, 2008)

Any thoughts on how the Kingston stacks up against the Raven Vintage? The Raven Vintage has a 2836 and more appropriate crystal for about 1/3 of the price of the Kingston. Not sure on build quality of the Raven however.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Just saw it for the first time. The hands are all wrong. The case and bezel assembly is "modern sub". It has crown guards and a trip-lock crown. It's basically a modern sub homage with gilt dial and hands, so no... I don't think it's a good comparison.

The plexiglass dome is nice, but it's likely not as watertight to as many atmospheres.


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

TheDude said:


> Just saw it for the first time. The hands are all wrong.


could you provide a bit more detail on this, please?


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

The minute hand is way too wide. The lume dot on the second hand is too far toward the end. The "tail" - or whatever - or the seconds hand is a rectangle, rather than a skinny piece with a circle on the end. The straight part of the hour hand is tapered. Also there's no gilt surrounds on the hour markers. The case and bezel are modern sub, not what the Kingston is going for.


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## Dent99 (Jun 25, 2008)

A thread on this watch got deleted a few weeks back so I'll get in quick!

Clearly the Raven it is designed to be a 6538 homage, but more of a quick and dirty mish mash of old and new. The track dial is good, the gilt hands are good, and the domed crystal looks very nice, but as austin has pointed out, the attention to detail and replication of period features is not on the same level as the Kingston. I would be curious to knnow how much it is though.

For the mods: I hope this thread does not get deleted as it doesn't really detract from any potential sales MKII could make on an already sold out product!


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

Dent99 said:


> A thread on this watch got deleted a few weeks back so I'll get in quick!
> 
> Clearly the Raven it is designed to be a 6538 homage, but more of a quick and dirty mish mash of old and new. The track dial is good, the gilt hands are good, and the domed crystal looks very nice, but as austin has pointed out, the attention to detail and replication of period features is not on the same level as the Kingston. I would be curious to knnow how much it is though.
> 
> For the mods: I hope this thread does not get deleted as it doesn't really detract from any potential sales MKII could make on an already sold out product!


Well, as I pointed out, it's not really period at all. It has a modern Sub case with crown guards, modern crown, modern bezel assembly and insert. It looks nothing like the early Rolex Submariners.


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

That's a little extreme, given that Jeff's watch looks like a mid-1960s 5512/13 with a gilt dial and hands (and there was at least a gilt dial "transitional" 5512 from around 1965). So it's not exactly based on a 6538 but a watch from less that ten years later. The Kingston is a different watch, but from what I've heard and seen the Raven sub is pretty nice, too (German case and crystal, ETA 2824 or 2836). Maybe someone who will receive a Kingston can do a comparison with pictures.



TheDude said:


> Well, as I pointed out, it's not really period at all.


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## TheDude (Jan 27, 2009)

bakuma said:


> That's a little extreme, given that Jeff's watch looks like a mid-1960s 5512/13 with a gilt dial and hands (and there was at least a gilt dial "transitional" 5512 from around 1965). So it's not exactly based on a 6538 but a watch from less that ten years later. The Kingston is a different watch, but from what I've heard and seen the Raven sub is pretty nice, too (German case and crystal, ETA 2824 or 2836). Maybe someone who will receive a Kingston can do a comparison with pictures.


Okay. Then it's period... Just not the same period. 

When I said "early" Subs, I meant the various references without crown guards that were 36mm.

I suppose without a date window, the Raven does resemble the later gilt 5513.


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

Kingston to me is a Sub vintage big crown homage, the raven is a vintage sub homage with style cues of the 6538. At just over 400 bucks with an ETA movement, I think it's decent value. I'd prefer the Kingston of course though


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

well I'll provide a link so others can see what we're talking about here... Raven Watch Company

and while the Raven may not provide the attention to detail of the Kingston, at least it's available to be had on one's wrist in a few weeks... and they are assembled by Jeff on an as-ordered basis...

I think it's a cracking Sub homage (as is the Kingston)... both are nice and at different price points... and as much as I'd like to own a Kingston, I'll be wearing the Raven Vintage tomorrow... it's always nice to have a choice 

cheers,
Peter


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

this just in... not exactly sure how it stacks up vs Kingston, but it's here and I sure like it a lot... maybe I'll have a Kingston one day to keep it company?

cheers,
Peter


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## Birddogone (Jul 27, 2010)

Ain't nothin wrong with that one Pete, very very nice. :-!

Rod


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## Dent99 (Jun 25, 2008)

Looks nice - the domed crystal really sets it off.


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## coris (May 1, 2009)

Very nice Peter.. Jeff builds a nice one. 

Congrats to all who got a Kingston in time. Both are equally beautiful watches in their own right. The Kingston may have the historic edge, being closer to the Bond watch, but the Raven watches are very nice from what I've seen.

|>


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## Jim C. (May 17, 2006)

Looks great, Peter. "Here" has a quality of its own. 

Is this one of the Ravens recently advertised on MWR?


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## Artonthewrist (Apr 10, 2008)

Wow that is super nice looking, did you get the extra lume or did you buy 
the stock unit and also like your strap if you dont mind who and where did 
you get it from, and lastly how tall is this watch.

thanks and nice pictures,
Dan


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## MartinCRC (Jun 3, 2008)

Here are two I knocked up myself whilst waiting for my Kingston to appear, both using what appears to be the same dial as that in the Raven, but without the extra text:





































The first one is fitted with a Seagull 2824-2 clone and the second with a pukka ETA 2824-2.

Martin


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

^^ couple of nice looking watches. Those hands are much more accurate than the Raven's.


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

MartinCRC said:


> Here are two I knocked up myself whilst waiting for my Kingston to appear, both using what appears to be the same dial as that in the Raven, but without the extra text: The first one is fitted with a Seagull 2824-2 clone and the second with a pukka ETA 2824-2.
> Martin


swell job, Martin! nice that you can put these together yourself :-!

I still prefer the Raven with its gilt dial text & logo and I also like that the Raven hands are wider than the "correct" style hands for easier reading...

cheers,
Peter


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Although I haven't seen one in person, I think that domed crystal without the cyclops is a big touch on the Raven. A little bit of an adjustment on that hand size makes a world of difference. For the price point it makes a good ETA-based Sub for anyone looking for a decent value: there is quite a bit of cr*p out there for about the same price


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

gr8sw said:


> this just in... not exactly sure how it stacks up vs Kingston, but it's here and I sure like it a lot... maybe I'll have a Kingston one day to keep it company?


what is that luminous material? it looks kinda blueish? looks kind of different than the pics on raven;s web site..


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## TimeOnTarget (Feb 11, 2006)

I missed out on the plank order for the Kingston. I have owned several Yao watches over the years, and I am a big fan. I caught the vintage sub bug, but I did not want to spend the big bucks for a Rolex or Tudor although I was mighty tempted in Hong Kong for sure!!!

When I saw this slightly used Raven for a great price ($250), I jumped on it. I don't think that the Raven is any threat to the Kingston as they are not exactly the same, and the Kingston is a true collector's piece that was painfully labored over in every detail.

Jeff is great to work with as I sent my watch back to him for a lume service. He is passionate about watches and takes great care in his work. The build quality of Raven is very high. I have been a WIS for a long time, and I have owned a lot of high end watches. Take my word for it, you don't always get your money's worth.... Like most of us here, I have discovered that independent watch makers often offer a better or equal product for much less $. :-!

I like the bigger hands on this watch- they work for me...


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

TimeOnTarget said:


> I missed out on the plank order for the Kingston. I have owned several Yao watches over the years, and I am a big fan. I caught the vintage sub bug, but I did not want to spend the big bucks for a Rolex or Tudor although I was mighty tempted in Hong Kong for sure!!!
> 
> When I saw this slightly used Raven for a great price ($250), I jumped on it. I don't think that the Raven is any threat to the Kingston as they are not exactly the same, and the Kingston is a true collector's piece that was painfully labored over in every detail.
> 
> ...


+1 TimeOnTarget!

Been wearing my Raven Vintage a week straight now and really love its 60's Sub vintage vibe with modern amenities... so much I ordered a 2nd for back-up :-d great watch for the $$ :-!










cheers,
Peter


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

one more time: the lume really looks very blue. what exactly is it?


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

What do these cost new?


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

It depends. The "regular" dial has some less-than-stellar lume, but Jeff has had many relumed with superluminova (I'm guessing C3 or C5), and those should glow like a torch. The blue tint could come from using that SL color (C7, I think...?) but could just be a slight shift in the color balance of the digital camera. C3 is one of the most common colors and one of (if not _the_) brightest. It appears slightly green in daylight.


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

Received this email earlier today:

_Dear Friends of mechanical watches,
the diver's watch SG9092-007 is finished now. The case is made from stainless-stell 316L. It is brushed with polished facets, the srewed, engraved case-back is polished and round brushed. The case diameter is 39 mm (without crown) and the height is 13,2 mm. The total length is 47 mm and the space between the lugs is 20 mm. The coin-edge bezel is turnable only left side with 60 clicks. The 7 mm crown is engraved. The diver has a outside domed sapphire-glass, inside flat and antireflect. The case-back is engraved with 007 plus jumping number. The jumping number is engraved between the lugs too.
The SG9092 has a automatic movement ETA 2824-2 swiss, 25,6 x 4,6 mm, 25 jewels, 28.800 A/h and runs 48 hours after full winding.
The dial is black matte and the hour-lines, -points and -triangle as well as the hands has a Superluminova in the color of aged Tritium.
The watch has a silver-grey/black Nato-strap with ss-buckle with pin.
The price for the watch which comes in a small wooden box is 245,00 Euro + 9,00 Euro shipping costs. We have made 100 pcs. and start to assemble after getting the order. Free numbers are 007/002 to 007/005, 007/008 to 007/010, 007/12 to 007/100. We need around 12 days for assembling.
Best Regards
Roland Kemmner

_What do you think, worth a new thread?
Menno
Here a few pics:


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

The case and bezel on this one looks really good. I'm not 100% behind the strong orange colour of lume. If this watch wasn't a clear Sub homage I would see past this and see it as a nice dash of colour.
I emailed Roland about the watch and you have the option of a mesh bracelet for extra 16 euro.....

I think its worth its own thread


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

> I think its worth its own thread


Done.

M.


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## gr8sw (Jun 14, 2006)

nullidentitat said:


> What do these cost new?


Raven Vintage is $425 shipped, with standard lume... $90 extra for SL...


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## panheds (Oct 24, 2008)

very nice indeed, the raven looks great.


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## martin_blank (May 19, 2010)

does anyone have pics of the standard lume? i mean is it worth 90 bucs for the SL?


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

martin_blank said:


> does anyone have pics of the standard lume? i mean is it worth 90 bucs for the SL?


This picture was taken in daylight, near a window:


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## martin_blank (May 19, 2010)

wow..that looks pretty good for what is called standard...

thanks for the pic..it would be a kingston for me if possible, but the raven, while different, is great looking and I would love to own one


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## bakuma (Mar 28, 2006)

Sorry Martin, I wasn't clear. This is the superluminova. It glows like a torch. Probably worth the extra $$ if you like a good glow.....



martin_blank said:


> wow..that looks pretty good for what is called standard...
> 
> thanks for the pic..it would be a kingston for me if possible, but the raven, while different, is great looking and I would love to own one


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