# was away for one day, I will never leave my computer again



## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

Dear friends and forum members,

I left the office early yesterday cause I had fiever. came back today and a fire had started. I talked to John in the morning and ironed things out. I personally admit the unprofessionality of the reaction of all parties involved including myself, John and the rest of DOXA. I need to make things clear here, as rumors seem to spread faster than a virus. Although I think it is further improfessional to discuss internal business matters in public, and all of you who own or work for a business know exaactly what I mean but because we dragged you all in, I need make some explanations here:

1. John was not fired because of salary issue. The increase was granted to him before this all started.
2. The reason behind the mess is that 2 grown ups (I apologize to the 2 persons here explicitely) have behaved like children in my eyes. Both are my friends and I will not cover either because they both know that loosing their temper has caused a great deal of problems. If you ask me what is next, I dont know. Time should heal all thes wounds.
3. All new DOXA SUBs are 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor. John assured me that he never mentioned anything like that and I trust him
4. DOXA's core business is building watches, so everything like straps, caps, watch rolls, etc are not necessarily Swiss made. As I have nothing to hide, I will put a list of origin of all what accessories that come to my mind:

1. leather straps EC
2. Watch rolls EC
3. Caps far east
4. T-shirts EC
5. Watch cylinder EC
6. rubber straps are designed in the US, made partially in the Switzerland, EC and China
7. printed matters EC
8. shipping boxes EC
9. plastic boxes for parts EC
10. tools for bracelet replacement EC

As I have noticed that many dont even know that there are 2 Johns here. Both of us have served you in the past and I wish my dear friend John would be able to stay. Apologies have to roll in every direction to dilute the personal humiliations and insults that have taken place yesterday before the situation could change.

John P.


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## dunk50 (Dec 18, 2006)

JOHN P, this needs to get worked out at all levels. I was keeping my 300T anyway.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

John, I hope you feel better soon.

I think everyone here feels a little un-nerved by the events of the last 24 hours. Allegations were made, rumors were started, and a general feeding frenzy ensued. I'm sure you and Rick are in the process of going through all these posts and will take whatever time is needed to address the pertinent issues raised.

Communication with the forum has always been an important part of the Doxa experience. Input from the forum has led directly to new offerings by Doxa, and I know there are _very _few companies that do this.

I urge everyone to please re-read the Doxa forum rules and guidelines. This forum is owned by Doxa. If we don't abide by the rules, Doxa may simply decide to shut down the forum. And I don't think _anyone _wants that to happen.....:think:

Paul


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## Tom R (Mar 11, 2006)

John P. - 

Thank you for your reply and for offering us all a free cap. :rodekaart 



In all honesty, I'd imagine you could apologize a hundred times for what apparently occurred yesterday and you will win some/lose some. I did not have the chance to read the post yesterday that stirred up this hornet's nest, so I am kind of flying blind here. However, news of this is all over the various dive watch forums. Some will continue to complain - rightly so; and, some will blow it all off and move on - rightly so. 

No matter what the case, I have never cared much for folks who air their anger in a public manner - this in reference to what was posted yesterday by your friend. He did a good job of starting a nice stinker, seems you are doing a good job of putting it to bed.

Just keep building good watches. My SUB 750T will never be leaving my stable.

TR


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

Hi John P, Thanks for joining the discussion, I think most of the Doxa-holics here will appreciate your point of view, as we are all a bit unnerved.

True, there are two Johns, and I have had excellent response from you also in my dealings with Doxa.

There is still some unresolved issues beyond the manufacturing, like warranty. It has been stated that tubes and crown will no longer be covered under warranty. If this is fact, it is a bad idea, and doesn't show a commitment on Doxa's part to stand behind their product.

Now that cooler heads prevail, I'm looking forward to resolving these issues that have been brought to light, so we can all feel comfortable with the company and products we support.

Mark


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## Dean in Canuckistan (Aug 22, 2006)

Bravo DOXA!!! Now clear up the warranty issue and we can put this whole mess to bed. Simple and done.

Now... back to enjoying my Doxas.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

*There is still some revisionism going on here.*

"3. DOXA is a 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor. John assured me that he never mentioned anything like that and I trust him"

I cut and pasted John V's e-mail in which he makes those statements because I knew they would be "disappeared."

I love the watches, and Doxa has been good to me, but lying bull-bleep is still lying bull-bleep. I guess the "official" take will be that every forum that has cut and pasted John V."s remarks is just making it up to slander Doxa.

Maybe John V should just stand up and take the hit for what he printed, or admit that he made it up out of spite.


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## Zoodles95 (Mar 9, 2006)

Dean in Canuckistan said:


> Bravo DOXA!!! Now clear up the warranty issue and we can put this whole mess to bed. Simple and done.
> 
> Now... back to enjoying my Doxas.


Agreed... The warranty issue is the one big issue for me. It is keeping me on the fence about a new 750t. Actually it is pushing me over the fence and not to the side that Doxa would want me on.

A full disclosure of that you cover in your warranty would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks in advance...


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## Dean in Canuckistan (Aug 22, 2006)

*Re: There is still some revisionism going on here.*



Mr.Boots said:


> "3. DOXA is a 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor. John assured me that he never mentioned anything like that and I trust him"
> 
> I cut and pasted John V's e-mail in which he makes those statements because I knew they would be "disappeared."
> 
> ...


"Swiss Made" means anything but in practice - have a look at the regulations regarding its use if you're confused by this matter.

Given the realities of globalization and outsourcing, I fail to see why this is something that causes so much fuss? So what if a Chinese watchmaker was involved in the assembly of your watch? Is his or her work somehow inherently inferior to the workmanship of a German?


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## BERNIE (Feb 12, 2006)

*Re: There is still some revisionism going on here.*



Dean in Canuckistan said:


> "Swiss Made" means anything but in practice - have a look at the regulations regarding its use if you're confused by this matter.
> 
> Given the realities of globalization and outsourcing, I fail to see why this is something that causes so much fuss? So what if a Chinese watchmaker was involved in the assembly of your watch? Is his or her work somehow inherently inferior to the workmanship of a German?


No and by the way the best and mostly detailed modelcars in the high price range are assembled in china.

As Dean mentioned let´s face it globalisation is everywhere and a solely one country manufactured product is a thing of the past.
Even ETA movements which everyone of us regards as a swiss movement are using parts manufactured somewhere in asia and are assembled according to the "SWISSMADE" laws set by the Swiss Government.

Regards Bernie


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

*Re: There is still some revisionism going on here.*



Dean in Canuckistan said:


> "Swiss Made" means anything but in practice - have a look at the regulations regarding its use if you're confused by this matter.
> 
> Given the realities of globalization and outsourcing, I fail to see why this is something that causes so much fuss? So what if a Chinese watchmaker was involved in the assembly of your watch? Is his or her work somehow inherently inferior to the workmanship of a German?


Dean, I hear what you're saying and have no problem with outsourcing in the watch industry if it's transparent, but I am compelled to point out that the Swiss watch industry would answer your last question with an unequivocal "Yes", and that they trade on that perception, which they have carefully crafted over dozens of years, quite vigourously - much to the benefit of Swiss watch makers.


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## BERNIE (Feb 12, 2006)

John thanks for making a statement, I guess some of us won´t be satisfied and we will never get a full insight on the whole matter but I don´t care about that, that´s your decission not ours.

For me Doxa makes a great product which gives me the opportunity to save my vintage Doxas from daily wear and that is what counts for me.

Move on and let those new models comming, I would be definetly in for a thick cased Conquistador reedition.

Regards Bernie


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## Tom Connelly (Feb 14, 2006)

I am not going to recant stuff written in other threads, but not everyone is into globalization, thinks that it should apply to certain luxury wearable goods, or that there aren't just as affordable Euro or other alternatives. There is affordable great quality stuff being produced in Switzerland and Germany so I don't buy this bullcrap about the Asian stuff being so that we working folks can afford a real mechanical watch. Sorry guys, it doesn't fly with everyone. For those who can and want to accept it as "standard practice" then fine. As for me I search out firms that make statements about being Swiss Made or German Made or whatever and choose to patronize them when I can. I love my Seikos and Citizen but it is a truth in advertizing issue for me and a cost issue. Less then US$1K then fine but much over and I don't want Chinese if I can avoid it, whether they make moon rockets or not. :-d

I never said that any of you have to agree with me, just undestand that a certain, probably small, percentage of the buying public insists on certain standards and will sekk that out for discretionary purchases when we can. If Doxa or whichever producer doesn't want to cater to that then someone will.

So, I hope the John P's statement about Doxa being 100% Swiss Made is for real and not just legally admissable under Swiss Law which means what we know that it really means. ;-)

Is that a Chairman Mao face staring out from my rice beads? :think:

Be careful Doxa. If you use the Chinese then eventually you will be seeing Chinese fakes of your watches. They don't respect your designs. So far to date I've never seen a Choxa offered anywhere, even on the replica forums where I cruise from time to time. Let's keep it that way.

I think eventually the world will regret having so much IP handed over to China in exchange for cheaper goods.


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## jtpemt (Feb 11, 2006)

I feel sorry for John, and what ever the reason is i'm sure Doxa had a good reason. But I personally feel it is unprofessinal for Doxa to go into details about John's termination. Are there questions that need answers yes, about the product, not the person. I love my Doxa, will someday get another, but I would personally loose respect for the company if they were to air their dirty laundry to the public. And it is possible that John V and Doxa may have a nondisclosure clause in place, and we should respect that. Jason


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

Malyel said:


> Will Doxa please address the issue of edition numbers. Your former employee made the accusation that 111 Divingstars were made in what was supposed to be an edition of 100. Is this true?
> 
> Also can you explain why was John fired if it was not because of the salary issue? :think:


Dear Malyel, sorry for the blunt answer, it is not directed towards you. This is BS. Not a single dial more than 100 was -apart from service parts- was built into a non Divingstar model. I can guarantee this and I am ready to take the challenge anytime. Again. it might sound blunt but it is not against you but against those who made this up to slander DOXA. I am ready to see a proof.

John P.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Dear friends and forum members,
> 
> I left the office early yesterday cause I had fiever. came back today and a fire had started. I talked to John in the morning and ironed things out. I personally admit the unprofessionality of the reaction of all parties involved including myself, John and the rest of DOXA. I need to make things clear here, as rumors seem to spread faster than a virus. Although I think it is further improfessional to discuss internal business matters in public, and all of you who own or work for a business know exaactly what I mean but because we dragged you all in, I need make some explanations here:
> 
> ...


What are the rules for governing the use of the Swiss or Swiss Made label on watches. Do those laws allow content from EC countries other than switzerland to be counted as having Swiss origin?


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

jtpemt said:


> I feel sorry for John, and what ever the reason is i'm sure Doxa had a good reason. But I personally feel it is unprofessinal for Doxa to go into details about John's termination. Are there questions that need answers yes, about the product, not the person. I love my Doxa, will someday get another, but I would personally loose respect for the company if they were to air their dirty laundry to the public. And it is possible that John V and Doxa may have a nondisclosure clause in place, and we should respect that. Jason


Jason, Amen, it is against my business and personal ethics to wash dirty laundry on the forum. John V. admitted that he made a mistake airing this. But for me as a the DOXA forum admin. I will never accept this to a happen. My friends ! dont be upset and dont assume DOXA has something to hide if I dont publish any details about the reasons for the decision that has been made because I do not think it is adequate to do so.

John P.


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## Malyel (Mar 30, 2006)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Jason, Amen, it is against my business and personal ethics to wash dirty laundry on the forum. John V. admitted that he made a mistake airing this. But for me as a the DOXA forum admin. I will never accept this to a happen. My friends ! dont be upset and dont assume DOXA has something to hide if I dont publish any details about the reasons for the decision that has been made because I do not think it is adequate to do so.
> 
> John P.


Seems VERY hypocritical to post why someone was not fired and yet not answer why he was fired. :rodekaart

IMO, If you really cared about not wanting to wash dirty laundry in public you would just say John V was fired, end of story. By discussing any aspect of the firing you are just as guilty of washing dirty laundry as John was last night. :think:


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2007)

Ty John for your interpretation of the mishaps of yesterday...I do not post here often but do read the forum daily|> I know you to be very professional in your duties with Doxa and also as a WIS just like the rest of us here as I learned in the conversation we had and how you took the time out of your day to call me and make my day! I wish you and Doxa the best and look forward to what Doxa has planned in the future:-!


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## GeoffD (Dec 9, 2006)

John MS said:


> What are the rules for governing the use of the Swiss or Swiss Made label on watches. Do those laws allow content from EC countries other than switzerland to be counted as having Swiss origin?


For any interested, this is the official wording.

http://www.fhs.ch/en/swissm.php


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## GeoffD (Dec 9, 2006)

To John @ Doxa

Thank you for speaking up. The silence was getting deafening.

Hopefully you will now be allowed time to catch up on the collective concerns this unfortunate episode had raised across most of the Watch Fora and put our minds at rest on the remaining issues such as CS, QC and W'ty.


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## SurferD (Feb 22, 2006)

Uh, excuse the ignorance, but does EC stand for Ecuador?


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## BERNIE (Feb 12, 2006)

Tom Connelly said:


> Is that a Chairman Mao face staring out from my rice beads? :think:
> 
> Be careful Doxa. If you use the Chinese then eventually you will be seeing Chinese fakes of your watches. They don't respect your designs. So far to date I've never seen a Choxa offered anywhere, even on the replica forums where I cruise from time to time. Let's keep it that way.
> 
> I think eventually the world will regret having so much IP handed over to China in exchange for cheaper goods.


Well Tom , could be that they will fake Doxas sometime in the future but I guess for the moment they make better profits by faking Panny´s and Rolexes, even the Vintage stuff and they are scary good on that, that makes me always wonder do they have the blueprints ?
Something to think about.

And yepp I agree with you 100% on the IP handover problematic, very scary but I guess we both won´t change that .

Regards Bernie

P.S. Hope Mao is not staring out of my ricebead bracelet and stays in the ricefields.:-d


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## Mauri H. (Jan 15, 2007)

SurferD said:


> Uh, excuse the ignorance, but does EC stand for Ecuador?


No, I guess more likely for European community


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## Anomaly (Feb 14, 2006)

SurferD said:


> Uh, excuse the ignorance, but does EC stand for Ecuador?


More likely...European Community.


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

SurferD said:


> Uh, excuse the ignorance, but does EC stand for Ecuador?


EC= European Community. It is the the economic zone formed by member European states, most (but not all) of which are members of the European Union (aka, the EU).


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## NSG1Tausend (Mar 27, 2006)

|> John P, thank you for reponding to us Doxaholic forum members.
Can you tell us about the issue of warranty on the crown and tubes? I love my 750 T  :gold and wonder about clarification on this.

Regards
Robt


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

John, I would really appreciate direct replies to the following questions, which were raised during the broohaha of the last 24 hours:

1. What is the story with John V's claim of Walca handling outsourcing for Doxa? It wasn't specifically stated, but it gave the impression that they handled more than just bracelets. What does Walca outsource for Doxa?

2. What about John V's affirmation that things such as how the lume on the Military style sharkhunter was intentionally weak; how misprinted hour markers where purposely printed in that manner (without a break between the 3 bars); how the misspelled name on the new cosc "Carribean" was spelled that way intentionally; etc, were actually production/quality control errors, and not intentional as has been defended by doxa in the past?

3. What is the story with tubes and crowns? Will those things no longer be covered by your warranty?

Lastly, many of the posters, myself included, posted that there is a real problem in this forum with heavy handed over-moderation. Even when posts aren't made to attack doxa, but rather to inquire about valid issues, they are often locked or summarily deleted. It is understood that as a company you would prefer to show only a positive side, but as you can read from the many posts, many owners and regular forumers have a real problem with the way the forum is handled. For a company that relies so heavily on the forum for its marketing, you might wish to re-asses how you handle discussions on the board. I think more customers would appreciate more open communication and discussion of issues that could be improved. After all, not all criticism is intended to be an attack.

Take care,

Isthmus


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## DoxaDavid (Dec 22, 2006)

*Re: There is still some revisionism going on here.*



Mr.Boots said:


> "3. DOXA is a 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor. John assured me that he never mentioned anything like that and I trust him"
> 
> I cut and pasted John V's e-mail in which he makes those statements because I knew they would be "disappeared."
> 
> ...


Mr.Boots,

I read all the deleted posts and John V never used any profanity. I believe you are paraphasing because I have never read a post or email were John has swore. If you can prove me wrong, I would like to see it.


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

Isthmus said:


> John, I would really appreciate direct replies to the following questions, which were raised during the broohaha of the last 24 hours:
> 
> 1. What is the story with John V's claim of Walca handling outsourcing for Doxa? It wasn't specifically stated, but it gave the impression that they handled more than just bracelets. What does Walca outsource for Doxa?
> 
> ...


Hi Isthmus, I feel like in a court if I forget for a moment that we are DOXAholics, does not matter to me though.

1. Walca sometimes do computer modeling and CNC protptypes according to the CAD models for future DOXAs because they have the computer technology that a traditional Swiss manufacturer lacks. But in regards of manufacturing, please read my reply at the top of the thread

2. those are 3 different unrelated issues in 1 question. The sharkhunter was made out of one piece for 2 batches by applýing the white coating under the lume to enhance the luminousity but unfortunately this did bring the results expected. So we switched back to the 3 bar configuration since February 2007. There is a batch of 10 carribbeans that were recalled to the factory but odd enough nobody wants to return them. I do not remember any defence by DOXA in this regards. I posted this appology myself about this issue and that I am not proud of it. Dont know who defended that??

3. Who said that? On if a crown is crossthreaded using excesssive force which can be easily examined under a microscope this will be rapaired at cost.

I feel the rumor kitchen is cooking but I am here and I am not leaving my computer till everything is sorted out and clarified

John P.


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## SurferD (Feb 22, 2006)

Isthmus said:


> EC= European Community. It is the the economic zone formed by member European states, most (but not all) of which are members of the European Union (aka, the EU).


Thanks for clearing that up guys! 
So I guess it's everything between UK/Spain and former Soviet/Scandinavian countries.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

*John, your response typifies my problem with the Doxa spin.*

John,
You make it sound in your response to Cannon as if someone outside of Doxa made up the story of 11 extra Divingstar dials: *"Again. it might sound blunt but it is not against you but against those who made this up to slander DOXA."*

It was not a "them" who introduced this statement, but John Vargas:

*"I have documents, papers, now, I can go forward with the truth. Your 10 year contract. The 11 additional dials you handed out for the limited edition 100 only Divingstar. The fact that DOXA USA consist of only three people. Everything truthful I have." *

The current spin now seems to be that other people on other forums made this up to slander Doxa. Just because Doxa and the other WUS forums have deleted the words doesn't mean that they were never stated by John Vargas, or that they never existed. Many of us copied the e-mail trail, or travail as it were, and can reference that *these words were written by a Doxa insider*,now fired or not.


I think that you, or better yet, John Vargas, owes Cannon a more honest answer. I have yet to see a posting by John Vargas saying,"I lied." Therefore, we have a right to question your spin control. Some of us refuse to automatically "drink the kool-aid."

Again I love the watches; I own six of them, but I love the truth more.


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## diverx (Jan 20, 2007)

Isthmus said:


> Lastly, many of the posters, myself included, posted that there is a real problem in this forum with heavy handed over-moderation. Even when posts aren't made to attack doxa, but rather to inquire about valid issues, they are often locked or summarily deleted. It is understood that as a company you would prefer to show only a positive side, but as you can read from the many posts, many owners and regular forumers have a real problem with the way the forum is handled. For a company that relies so heavily on the forum for its marketing, you might wish to re-asses how you handle discussions on the board. I think more customers would appreciate more open communication and discussion of issues that could be improved. After all, not all criticism is intended to be an attack.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Isthmus


Isthmus, I'm sure you have read them, as you are a stickler for detail, but the rules are the rules. I'm far from a staunch rule follower, but the rules governing this forum are posted for all to see. Demands, large or small, for clarification of "why" for deleted posts are just going to get you directed to the guidelines.
I understand your concerns, as well as some of your questions(which may get answered), but this isn't the SCWF. As free and loose as that forum is run, which is fun in some ways, may not lend itself to the companys' interest. 
I don't like Howard Stern. I don't listen to him. If one doesn't like something, he doesn't have to be involved.
With that said, Doxa wants to be involved with you and me, thus, this forum. That speaks volumes. This example can be held head and shoulders above Seiko (of which is the majority of my 50 plus watch collection,BTW). If Seiko cared, they would be involved. They are not. If Doxa cared, they would be involved. They are. If we want to continue sharing in this interest with which they share with us, we must consider their guidelines.


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## mambo (Mar 23, 2007)

This is Doxa's forum so we have to limit ourselbves to what doxa want. There is always Dr Millar's forum, which I assume is less moderated in respect of Doxa company policy.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

*I'm don't understand where you get your impression from.*



Doxa600TDiver said:


> Mr.Boots,
> 
> I read all the deleted posts and John V never used any profanity. I believe you are paraphasing because I have never read a post or email were John has swore. If you can prove me wrong, I would like to see it.


"Lying bull-bleep" is my expression for what is going on here. I never attributed it to John V., or to John P. as a quote. If I had, I would have quoted him directly with the proper punctuation. Maybe you should re-read my post.


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

DOXA S.A. said:


> I feel the rumor kitchen is cooking but I am here and I am not leaving my computer till everything is sorted out and clarified
> 
> John P.


Great job John, thats the kind of stuff we need to hear. |>

I'm feeling better about all this.


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

diverx said:


> Isthmus, I'm sure you have read them, as you are a stickler for detail, but the rules are the rules. I'm far from a staunch rule follower, but the rules governing this forum are posted for all to see. Demands, large or small, for clarification of "why" for deleted posts are just going to get you directed to the guidelines.
> I understand your concerns, as well as some of your questions(which may get answered), but this isn't the SCWF. As free and loose as that forum is run, which is fun in some ways, may not lend itself to the companys' interest.
> I don't like Howard Stern. I don't listen to him. If one doesn't like something, he doesn't have to be involved.
> With that said, Doxa wants to be involved with you and me, thus, this forum. That speaks volumes. This example can be held head and shoulders above Seiko (of which is the majority of my 50 plus watch collection,BTW). If Seiko cared, they would be involved. They are not. If Doxa cared, they would be involved. They are. If we want to continue sharing in this interest with which they share with us, we must consider their guidelines.


Thanks DiverX and Thanks John for your replies. Both are well taken, understood and appreciated. Thanks again.


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## Mike748 (Apr 1, 2007)

*Where are the major components (cases, dials and bracelets) made?*

John, can you answer this directly? I think if you do the issue will be closed. Your "100% Swiss" answer has too much wiggle room in it. Are the cases (and bezels) machined in Switzerland as advertised? Are the dials and bracelets made in CH or the EC?

Thanks!

Mike


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: Where are the major components (cases, dials and bracelets) made?*



Mike748 said:


> John, can you answer this directly? I think if you do the issue will be closed. Your "100% Swiss" answer has too much wiggle room in it. Are the cases (and bezels) machined in Switzerland as advertised? Are the dials and bracelets made in CH or the EC?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Mike


According to THIS THREAD, which attributes its information to John P., Cases and Bezels are manufactured in China.

According to John's first post in this thread (in item #10) [replacement] bracelets are manufactured somewhere in the EC.


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## Seamaster73 (Jul 12, 2006)

SurferD said:


> Thanks for clearing that up guys! So I guess it's everything between UK/Spain and former Soviet/Scandinavian countries.


The UK and Spain are both in the EU. So is most of Scandanavia. And several former Soviet countries have already joined or applied to join.


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## Mike748 (Apr 1, 2007)

Isthmus... #10 refers to the Bergeon bracelet tool. I was hoping for a direct answer from John to the case mfg question rather than relying on hearsay from that other post.

BTW I'm a Hokie too. Maybe that's part of the attraction to the color orange.


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## Isthmus (Feb 13, 2006)

Mike748 said:


> BTW I'm a Hokie too. Maybe that's part of the attraction to the color orange.


He he! Small world. Never thought of it that way. I still think in the terms of that t-shirt that says:

"If god wasn't a Hokie, then why did he make fall maroon and orange?"

Now that would be a color combo for a watch... :-!


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

*Re: Where are the major components (cases, dials and bracelets) made?*



Isthmus said:


> According to THIS THREAD, which attributes its information to John P., Cases and Bezels are manufactured in China.


That is information provided by a first-time poster, not John P. I'll wait to hear it from John, to avoid perpetuating more rumors.


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## J.Wayne (Mar 23, 2007)

Hey Mark, 
your according "TO THIS" thread is dead link.
The one about the cases and bezels being made in China.

I can only assume that it has been deleted.



J.


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## 34dean (Aug 27, 2006)

*As an outsider and non-Doxa owner I must say...*

from what I have ready, this is not good at all for Doxa. Too many questions now about the brand and the manner in which it conducts business. If I was going to consider one, I wouldn't now. :think:

Just my two cents.


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Dear Malyel, sorry for the blunt answer, it is not directed towards you. This is BS. Not a single dial more than 100 was -apart from service parts- *was built into a non Divingstar model.* I can guarantee this and I am ready to take the challenge anytime. Again. it might sound blunt but it is not against you but against those who made this up to slander DOXA. I am ready to see a proof.
> 
> John P.


John,

John V. didn't say *non Divingstar models, *he said Divingstar models. So... John V. says that there are 111 Divingstars out there and you say that there are 100.

Why would John V. say that there were 111 if it were not true in a private email to Rick?

Todd.


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## jbuick (Feb 16, 2007)

3. All new DOXA SUBs are 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor.

John P.[/quote]

So John P. .......... How about the 100% truth.
Tell us 100 % where all the components of the actual watch are made. 
Your answer on line 3. was less than informing.


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## golfboy (Mar 14, 2007)

J.Wayne said:


> Hey Mark,
> your according "TO THIS" thread is dead link.
> The one about the cases and bezels being made in China.
> 
> ...


It was a thread started by a new forum registrant and it was his/her first post as Mark's eagle eye picked up. Hardly a credible source.

I had posted to that thread indicating that it doesn't make sense for small company like Doxa who only builds a handful of limited editions to build ANY parts of their watches in China or any other low-cost center. Why? Because the numbers only work if you're making MILLIONS of product! It would probably cost Doxa more money to ensure quality of a small number of cases, bracelets, bezels, or whatever all the way in China. Not to mention the shipping costs. I don't know about you, but I got my watches shipped to me from Bienne, not some warehouse in Hong Kong or Shanghai. Think about it rationally before you believe everything you see written.

Bottom line, if it didn't come from Doxa directly, why should it be true? I for one believe John when he says Doxa's are 100% made in Switzerland because there is absolutely no evidence to prove it otherwise.


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## diverx (Jan 20, 2007)

*Well, I was talking to Dirk Pitt the other day and..*



pepsidiver said:


> John,
> 
> John V. didn't say *non Divingstar models, *he said Divingstar models. So... John V. says that there are 111 Divingstars out there and you say that there are 100.
> 
> ...


 he told me that Clive Cussler had it from a good source that the Orange pigment used in the Dirk Pitt model was actually derived from non-european oranges. He went on to say that it was actually obtained from oranges grown in Florida, from an orchard that John V. has a personal interest in. Well, word got out and the big bosses had to shut that connection down, toute suite! That's really why John V. said all those things...b-)

Come on guys. Give the Mods some time to gather their info and maybe some cold hard facts that can help all to regain their prior confidence in a great product. If you're looking for a quick fix and some fast, wordy appeasements from the mods, you're not going to believe it anyway. I'm not saying to let it blow over, but give them some breathing room.
I believe the truth will come to light.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

All new DOXA SUBs are 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor.

John P.


jbuick said:


> So John P. .......... How about the 100% truth.
> Tell us 100 % where all the components of the actual watch are made.
> Your answer on line 3. was less than informing.


Now come on! He answered the question. Why ask it again? Asking again simply says "John, I think you lied with your first answer, so give me another answer". Geez!

Paul


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

jbuick said:


> 3. All new DOXA SUBs are 100% Swiss made brand so I do not know who started this stupid rumor.
> 
> John P.


So John P. .......... How about the 100% truth.
Tell us 100 % where all the components of the actual watch are made. 
Your answer on line 3. was less than informing.[/quote]

Dear JBuick, All DOXA SUBs re-editions are 100% Swiss made. Only thing I cannot guarantee for because I have not seen it while being manufactured are NOS parts used in the SUB250. The cases are over 25 years old and I was not with DOXA those days, so I cannot guarantee where they were made. But back then, the only source for watch cases was Switzerland, Germany or Japan but I doubt that DOXA has ever imported any watch cases from Japan.

john p.


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## golfboy (Mar 14, 2007)

*Re: Well, I was talking to Dirk Pitt the other day and..*

Lol! How is Dirk these days?

Agreed. Everyone loves a conspiracy even if none exists....if you believe anything, you should believe that a business relies on customers so it is in Doxa's best interests to fight all these fires and smooth things over. Just give them time to do it.


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## lordsinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

I posted my observations as a non-Doxa owner a few hours back in a thread that has now been deleted, due to nefarious content I assume. I expressed hope that this could all be resolved to the benefit of Doxa, Doxaholics, and WUS. Reading this new thread I must congratulate John P - who I neither know nor have had any dealings with - for stepping up and answering all and any questions in the face of considerable pressure. Clearly the events of the last 24 hours have raised some legitimate questions that Doxa will no doubt reflect on...but it has also bought some very unrealistic attitudes from a number of contributors, some of whom clearly have ulterior motives.

Let's give the guy a break now so he can indeed step away from his computer and get some rest. Doxa ain't going anywhere, and there is plenty of time to answer specifics in due course.


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## J.Wayne (Mar 23, 2007)

*John P.

I am censoring myself by deleting this and the above message.

I did NOT come here to bash DOXA and do not want to be involved in 
this mess anymore! I only came here to ask an honest question about
what had happened and how will things be resolved. I happen to love the DOXA brand
mainly because of Jacques Cousteau's association w/ them 30+ years ago.

I was reluctant to say ANYTHING that was contained in a PRIVATE MESSAGE, for 
fear of breaking another rule that I am oblivious to because of my short time here.

I would appreciate it if you would edit your post accordingly.

J.

*


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

golfboy said:


> It was a thread started by a new forum registrant and it was his/her first post as Mark's eagle eye picked up. Hardly a credible source.
> 
> I had posted to that thread indicating that it doesn't make sense for small company like Doxa who only builds a handful of limited editions to build ANY parts of their watches in China or any other low-cost center. Why? Because the numbers only work if you're making MILLIONS of product! It would probably cost Doxa more money to ensure quality of a small number of cases, bracelets, bezels, or whatever all the way in China. Not to mention the shipping costs. I don't know about you, but I got my watches shipped to me from Bienne, not some warehouse in Hong Kong or Shanghai. Think about it rationally before you believe everything you see written.
> 
> Bottom line, if it didn't come from Doxa directly, why should it be true? I for one believe John when he says Doxa's are 100% made in Switzerland because there is absolutely no evidence to prove it otherwise.


Great line of thinking!!:-! I really like your style..........


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> John, you guys need to STOP deleting Posts. No matter what is said, it looks bad on your part! It shows that Doxa is trying to cover-up things, and does not care!
> 
> Todd.


What about posts by trolls that state false information as fact? Leave those for everyone to read? I don't think so.


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

J.Wayne said:


> I just read a private message from John P.
> 
> He responded to my message mentioned in the post above by saying that
> my thread has been "suspended" and would be reinstated later this week.
> ...


Dear Sir, Please mention the whole truth, I explained that our business ethics do not allow us to public post internal reasons why an Employee was fired but feel free to direct your question to him. It is his choice to give you answer. I also explained that the forum policy does not allow prophanity and I requested you to remove those from you postings when I re-instate the thread. I treated you courteously and respectfully and asked you for some patience. Anything wrong with that?

Please check my official reply here: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=57718

john p.


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

MarkJnK said:


> What about posts by trolls that state false information as fact? Leave those for everyone to read? I don't think so.


 Why not? How do you know if the statements are false or not? We need to let all the posts be read, so that everyone can decide for themselves.

Who are you to decide for me, or anyone else, what is true and what is not? I am my own man, and will decide based on what I read. I don't need, or want, you to decide for me what I can read. And I certainly don't want YOU to decide for me!!! This cannot be done when massive censorship is being practiced.

Do you live in China or something?

Todd.


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## jmoors (Feb 13, 2006)

J.Wayne said:


> I just read a private message from John P.
> 
> He responded to my message mentioned in the post above by saying that
> my thread has been "suspended" and would be reinstated later this week.
> ...


John P was busy ... I was trying to work with him concerning a service request that I needed to have taken care of.

I have a lot of respect for John P and I'm sure that he wants to get the issues on the forum taken care of but he also needs to deal with customer request for service, and he did!!!!

Thank You John for all your help, it was an honor dealing with you, please keep up the good work.

John M :-!


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## JMS (Oct 1, 2006)

Just keep up the good work guys and all the best!

James


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Why not? How do you know if the statements are false or not? We need to let all the posts be read, so that everyone can decide for themselves.
> 
> Who are you to decide for me, or anyone else, what is true and what is not? I am my own man, and will decide based on what I read. I don't need, or want, you to decide for me what I can read. And I certainly don't want YOU to decide for me!!! This cannot be done when massive censorship is being practiced.
> 
> ...


No, we do NOT need to let every post stand. Posts that we deem to be abusive, insulting, or demeaning WILL get deleted. Posts that contain inaccurate info, or outright lies, WILL get deleted. This forum has rules that EVERYONE needs to follow. If someone is unable to follow the rules, then their posts will be deleted. And they may be banned, too, if they continue to violate the rules.

I cannot be any clearer than this!

Paul


----------



## J.Wayne (Mar 23, 2007)

*John P.

I am censoring myself by deleting this and the above message.

I did NOT come here to bash DOXA and do not want to be involved in 
this mess anymore! I only came here to ask an honest question about
what had happened and how will things be resolved. I happen to love the DOXA brand
mainly because of Jacques Cousteau's association w/ them 30+ years ago.

I was reluctant to say ANYTHING that was contained in a PRIVATE MESSAGE, for 
fear of breaking another rule that I am oblivious to because of my short time here.

I would appreciate it if you would edit your post accordingly.

J.*


----------



## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

Searambler said:


> No, we do NOT need to let every post stand. Posts that we deem to be abusive, insulting, or demeaning WILL get deleted. Posts that contain inaccurate info, or outright lies, WILL get deleted. This forum has rules that EVERYONE needs to follow. If someone is unable to follow the rules, then their posts will be deleted. And they may be banned, too, if they continue to violate the rules.
> 
> I cannot be any clearer than this!
> 
> Paul


I have no problem with that. But the fact is that there have been many posts deleted here that do not meet your criteria above. Anything that does not put Doxa in a good light, is deleted.

It's not just me who see this type of action by the mods on this forum.

Todd.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> I have no problem with that. But the fact is that there have been many posts deleted here that do not meet your criteria above. Anything that does not put Doxa in a good light, is deleted.
> 
> It's not just me who see this type of action by the mods on this forum.
> 
> Todd.


I'm sorry, that was not meant to be a comprehensive list of all the reasons that posts can be deleted. This is from the official rules and guidelines at the top of the forum:

DOXA watches LTD and its moderators reserve the right to delete posts and/or whole conversations we determine are of an irrelevant, aggressive, abusive, offensive or disruptive nature. Postings containing incorrect details or misleading information about a member, product or the manufacturer will be deleted without prior notice. DOXA is a reputable Swiss watch manufacturer and the name DOXA has stood up for quality, customer friendliness and integrity for over 1 century, In case you are not satisfied with a product or a staff member's reply to an email etc.. *Please direct your feedback, complains or questions directly to DOXA* at [email protected]. Postings offending or questioning the standing, integrity, credibility or strategy of DOXA watches LTD will be also deleted without prior notice.

I hope this helps.

Paul


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Why not? How do you know if the statements are false or not? We need to let all the posts be read, so that everyone can decide for themselves.
> 
> Who are you to decide for me, or anyone else, what is true and what is not? I am my own man, and will decide based on what I read. I don't need, or want, you to decide for me what I can read. And I certainly don't want YOU to decide for me!!! This cannot be done when massive censorship is being practiced.
> 
> ...


Todd, I gave a specific example of a post that stated false claims (obviously IMO). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize the troll with only one post stating claims that were very damaging to the brand. Yet in short order, some people had referenced this post as fact and even linked to it. Removing that post is warranted in my opinion as it did nothing but spread false rumors amongst people that don't take the time to understand the source or the situation.

I don't blame Doxa one bit, and I don't appreciate your last statement.


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

Searambler said:


> I'm sorry, that was not meant to be a comprehensive list of all the reasons that posts can be deleted. This is from the official rules and guidelines at the top of the forum:
> 
> DOXA watches LTD and its moderators reserve the right to delete posts and/or whole conversations we determine are of an irrelevant, aggressive, abusive, offensive or disruptive nature. Postings containing incorrect details or misleading information about a member, product or the manufacturer will be deleted without prior notice. DOXA is a reputable Swiss watch manufacturer and the name DOXA has stood up for quality, customer friendliness and integrity for over 1 century, In case you are not satisfied with a product or a staff member's reply to an email etc.. *Please direct your feedback, complains or questions directly to DOXA* at [email protected]. Postings offending or questioning the standing, integrity, credibility or strategy of DOXA watches LTD will be also deleted without prior notice.
> 
> ...


Paul, Say what you will. But the fact of the matter is that the mods are deleting posts by Doxa owners who have legitimate concerns about the product that they have purchased in good faith from Doxa.

Instead of deleting those posts, Doxa should address these real concerns by Doxa customers, instead of dealing with them by deleting posts. Period!!! Not a good way to run a company. And certainly not a good way to win over possible new customers.

Todd.


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## mangotti (Feb 9, 2006)

T-shirts? Are they available now?


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

MarkJnK said:


> Todd, I gave a specific example of a post that stated false claims (obviously IMO). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize the troll with only one post stating claims that were very damaging to the brand. Yet in short order, some people had referenced this post as fact and even linked to it. Removing that post is warranted in my opinion as it did nothing but spread false rumors amongst people that don't take the time to understand the source or the situation.
> 
> I don't blame Doxa one bit, and I don't appreciate your last statement.


 I apologize for that last statement. But I'm glad that it offended you, it should have. It shows that you actually care about Freedom of speech. You live in Canada, as do I. Freedom of speech is paramount in a free society.

Todd.


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

pepsidiver said:


> Paul, Say what you will. But the fact of the matter is that the mods are deleting posts by Doxa owners who have legitimate concerns about the product that they have purchased in good faith from Doxa.
> 
> Instead of deleting those posts, Doxa should address these real concerns by Doxa customers, instead of dealing with them by deleting posts. Period!!! Not a good way to run a company. And certainly not a good way to win over possible new customers.
> 
> Todd.


Dear Todd, I addressed every concern that appeared in the 48 hours. I did not leave one question unanswered. but with all due respect, there are allegations with no proof that I consider libel and slander attempts and nothing more than that. What would your reply look like towards a vicious allegation towards you or your family? would you publically debate it? or more wisely to turn your back on it and take legal steps? The reason for false allegations is not a request for truth which I will always be more than happy to supply but it is more an attempt to publically question and slander a successful business and drag them with unjustified forces into a debate to bad mouth them. Unfortunately, the truth can be said in simple phrases. Offense and defense do not help the truth to come out but only causes more confusion to matters. This is why I have hidden every questionable posting and I am in the process of contacting every one involved in the those threads to bring out the truth.

John P.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Paul, Say what you will. But the fact of the matter is that the mods are deleting posts by Doxa owners who have legitimate concerns about the product that they have purchased in good faith from Doxa.
> 
> Instead of deleting those posts, Doxa should address these real concerns by Doxa customers, instead of dealing with them by deleting posts. Period!!! Not a good way to run a company. And certainly not a good way to win over possible new customers.
> 
> Todd.


Todd, I understand your feelings. (Although many of the deleted posts were _not _made by Doxa owners, rather by people who have never owned one). But this forum has rules. Period! Moderation will continue as it has been done until/unless Doxa says otherwise. Posts that violate these rules will be deleted. Your point has been made, you don't like the way Doxa handles their forum or their company. That's your perogative. But (to be blunt) either follow the rules or leave.

Paul


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## jbuick (Feb 16, 2007)

I'll tell yah one thing........I didn't spend $3500.00 Canadian to get me a Sub600 T-Graphn Sharkhunter and then find out it's mostly chinese. If I was looking for an Asian watch I would have got me another Seiko. After all Seiko does make one of the most dependable and accurate watches on the face of the earth. I had a top of the line Seiko that I wore for ten years in and out of the jungle that was also subjected to the harshest shock and vibration you could imagine. It only cost me 300 bucks. I wish I had taken better care of it and replaced a couple of seals. I still would have been wearing it today. 
But all that said I have been yearning after a top of the line mechanical SWISS MADE watch for years and after redicovering my old DOXA ARMY I decided to get another. Now I find out that it may contain a lot of asian parts. I'm not happy. Never mind the globalization BS story. I thought I was buying more or less hand made craftmanship. Not some stamped out, lazer cut, parted out from who knows were junk. I got nothing against high tech either by the way. I owned a Rheil Time Sychronar in the early 70's. I just think when you pay for SWISS MADE that's what you should get. By the way......take a look at the outer bezel on my new Sharkie. I've noticed the same thing on a few others I've seen pictured on this site.










*Added by the DOXA forum moderator.*

*First of all, who said that your watch is made in China? Please point me to the source and I will challenge it till the day I die.*

*I will not delete this posting that contains an obvious vicious statement that this DOXA is not a Swiss made watch. I know you are not attempting to bash DOXA, as you are a returning customer with concerns. All I can say is that, your watch is Swiss made and the label on the dial certifies this. If you have no faith in my statement or have any doubts, please go ahead and file a complain with the Swiss watch federation and if you prove to be right with your assumptions or the rumors you heard then DOXA is out of business by to Swiss laws. The Swiss watch federation is the highest instance in the Swiss watch industry. No manufacturer will dare to bypass their strict rules.*

*John*


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Dear Todd, I addressed every concern that appeared in the 48 hours. I did not leave one question unanswered. but with all due respect, there are allegations with no proof that I consider libel and slander attempts and nothing more than that. What would your reply look like towards a vicious allegation towards you or your family? would you publically debate it? or more wisely to turn your back on it and take legal steps?
> 
> John P.


John, I would take legal steps. It's just that the deleting of posts looks bad for you. And it isn't the first time this has happened on this forum for much less serious reasons. It's quite common paractice here by you guys actually to delete anything that is not positive for Doxa. That's all. And I am not alone in this. There are MANY who feel this way.

Todd.


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## JAD3703 (Feb 11, 2006)

Irrespective of people agreeing or disagreeing with Doxa's answers. And irrespective of everyone parsing each word, phrase and sentence to death (which is going on here way too much); the one thing that I've always appreciated about Doxa (in addition to the GMT Pro, which I love, and hopefully a Conquistador with HRV in the near future), is that no matter what, Doxa strives to answer any and all questions posed to them by their customers (us). And they listen to us and put out models with design features that we ask for. I've not seen any other watch company that puts that level of effort into its customer service.

So, in all of the vitrol, accusations and counter-accusations, I'd like to simply say thank you to Doxa for listening to us and making the effort, even when it's got to be crappy at times being in the beaten zone (Army term - not a happy place).

James

PS. How about that Conquistador w/HRV?


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

Searambler said:


> Todd, I understand your feelings. (Although many of the deleted posts were _not _made by Doxa owners, rather by people who have never owned one). But this forum has rules. Period! Moderation will continue as it has been done until/unless Doxa says otherwise. Posts that violate these rules will be deleted. Your point has been made, you don't like the way Doxa handles their forum or their company. That's your perogative. But (to be blunt) either follow the rules or leave.
> 
> Paul


Paul, your response just proves my point about how Doxa sees their customers. It's Doxa's way or the highway.

Todd.


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## JAD3703 (Feb 11, 2006)

Todd,

Yep, it is. Because it's their forum. 

It would be like someone coming into the front foyer of Wal-Mart (or, if you're in Canada, The Bay), and setting up an anti-Bay or anti-Wal-Mart information booth. And then telling the department store that it's not fair when store security kicks them out.

Doxa S.A. has never once not answered a question that has been put to them, although maybe not to your specific satisfaction. If you have concerns, send questions to Rick Marei or John P and ask them to post them on the forum. There may be some proprietary business issues that they cannot answer because of contractual agreements with suppliers or Jenny, but they'll tell you that. 

And all of this is way more than any other watch company has ever done, as far as I know. This is not to get you spooled up or indignant, just to keep things in perspective. This is their storefront.

And I'd buy another Doxa tomorrow, if it's the Conquistador with HRV.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

Regards,

James


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## jmoors (Feb 13, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Paul, your response just proves my point about how Doxa sees their customers. It's Doxa's way or the highway.
> 
> Todd.


I have to agree with Paul ... hell I had my post deleted because I abused the "rules" but after dealing with John P I am happy with the answer I got from him and DOXA ....

There always has to be rules .... I don't want to live in a lawless society ... do you??

Just my 2 cents,

John M


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Paul, your response just proves my point about how Doxa sees their customers. It's Doxa's way or the highway.
> 
> Todd.


Three things. First, I am an un-paid volunteer here. I became a Doxaholic 4 years ago and, because I spent so much time hanging around the Doxa forum, I was asked to help mod the place. So don't think that I'm an employee of Doxa. The things I write are mine.

Second, Doxa sees their customers as real people. Doxa is made up of real people. Try getting anywhere near this amount of info and interaction from the employees of Omega, or Rolex, or Swatch, or Tissot, or.....well, you get the idea. Doxa listens to their customers. They don't always do what we want them to do, but at least they take the time to listen.

Third, and for the last time, this forum has rules. If you can't follow the rules, then don't post here. If you have a problem with following rules, that's your issue, not mine. End of discussion, no more warnings.

Paul


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

pepsidiver said:


> John, I would take legal steps. It's just that the deleting of posts looks bad for you. And it isn't the first time this has happened on this forum for much less serious reasons. It's quite common paractice here by you guys actually to delete anything that is not positive for Doxa. That's all. And I am not alone in this. There are MANY who feel this way.
> 
> Todd.


Dear Todd, exactly because you are one among those who think this way. I explained my point. There is no point of publically addressing lies. There is a big difference between "bad of DOXA" and "lies". not all threads on the forum are good for DOXA and they do not get deleted, only public insults, offenses, inapropriate language, lies and vicious attempts of slander and libel are deleted. Our business ethics do not allow us to reply in public to the above and the forum rules clearly states that type of postings mentioned above are inadequate and inacceptable on this forum, and will be removed. We prefer to be cosidered censoring the forum than publically insulting and replying to insults made towards DOXA on the forum.

As I said, I would rather be called names I obviously hate to hear than to try to spend so much effort and cause so many debates trying to justify the truth and publically condemning and uncovering the truth behind the initiator of the thread. I saw that happen several times before and all I received was more bashing from fellow members, how dare DOXA (the big giant) publically attack a forum member (usually someone who never owned or dealt with DOXA before) and that this should be handeled privately. The essence of this discussion is "I will never be able to please everyone". So please let me do it in the most peaceful and courtous way, by contacting every contributor to the thread and personally clarifying issues with them directly. In most cases, this is appreciated method by the poster and leaves no bad taste on the forum.

You will sure have your reasons and please accept my apologies for the policy we have implimented that has also has proven to be the best for the member and DOXA when it comes to clearing up misunderstandings and resolving disputes. It is also obvious that whatever DOXA will do, it will not be able to please everyone.

Thank you

John P.


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## DoxaDavid (Dec 22, 2006)

Searambler said:


> No, we do NOT need to let every post stand. Posts that we deem to be abusive, insulting, or demeaning WILL get deleted. Posts that contain inaccurate info, or outright lies, WILL get deleted. This forum has rules that EVERYONE needs to follow. If someone is unable to follow the rules, then their posts will be deleted. And they may be banned, too, if they continue to violate the rules.
> 
> I cannot be any clearer than this!
> 
> Paul


And I agree with you Paul. Flush ehm!!!


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Hi Isthmus, I feel like in a court if I forget for a moment that we are DOXAholics, does not matter to me though.
> 
> 1. Walca sometimes do computer modeling and CNC protptypes according to the CAD models for future DOXAs because they have the computer technology that a traditional Swiss manufacturer lacks. But in regards of manufacturing, please read my reply at the top of the thread
> 
> ...


John P., you are one heck of a guy|>|> Please hang in there until all this dies down. There are those of us out there that still love Doxa and can't wait to get our hands on more. ( I am not trying to throw stones at anyone:-!)


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

How long have you had the watch to get tha many scratches? At least you wear it.


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

Who are all these people coming out of the woodwork?? A week ago it was quite lazy around here. Now, there are names that I have not seen before? A little confusing........

Maybe it is time to let the real Doxaholics get back to talking about a watch that they live, eat, and dream about:-!:-!


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## lordsinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

jclevoy said:


> Who are all these people coming out of the woodwork?? A week ago it was quite lazy around here. Now, there are names that I have not seen before? A little confusing........
> 
> Maybe it is time to let the real Doxaholics get back to talking about a watch that they live, eat, and dream about:-!:-!


Don't forget that all this kicked off on the Public Forum last night, so a lot of WUS members saw it there. Their interest, if one can call it that, spilled over to the Doxa Forum today.

I am a regular on the Dive Forum, but I lurk on the Doxa Forum even though I am not an owner. I suspect many do the same, although clearly ownership is not a pre-requisite to comment on any WUS forum. It's pretty easy to spot the troublemakers, though.

All this will pass, and maybe some lessons will be learned by Doxa and the Doxaholics. I mean that in the best possible sense; even as a lurker, the intensity of the Doxa Forum was always noticeably higher than elsewhere on WUS.


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

lordsinclair said:


> Don't forget that all this kicked off on the Public Forum last night, so a lot of WUS members saw it there. Their interest, if one can call it that, spilled over to the Doxa Forum today.
> 
> I am a regular on the Dive Forum, but I lurk on the Doxa Forum even though I am not an owner. I suspect many do the same, although clearly ownership is not a pre-requisite to comment on any WUS forum. It's pretty easy to spot the troublemakers, though.
> 
> All this will pass, and maybe some lessons will be learned by Doxa and the Doxaholics. I mean that in the best possible sense; even as a lurker, the intensity of the Doxa Forum was always noticeably higher than elsewhere on WUS.


It is good to see a non-Doxa owner that is not being negative:-! You are welcome here with us Doxaholics anytime:-d


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## lordsinclair (Mar 21, 2006)

jclevoy said:


> It is good to see a non-Doxa owner that is not being negative:-! You are welcome here with us Doxaholics anytime:-d


I appreciate it! First off, I want a copy of Pete Millar's book when it comes out. And then...who knows? Maybe I'll try one of those fine-looking Searamblers.


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## Mauri H. (Jan 15, 2007)

jbuick said:


> By the way......take a look at the outer bezel on my new Sharkie. I've noticed the same thing on a few others I've seen pictured on this site.


My Pro has the same thing, the outer bezel seems to scratch easily, as it is strongly polished. However I don't mind, I have used my watch everywhere and have not had mercy for it at all. Of course I'd hope that the bezel was made of adamantium so it wouldn't be scratched at all, but it is as it is.

When you see pictures on this site about members watches, I guess you can clearly see looking at the bezel which watch has actually been worn in everyday activities, and which has not. So the scratches just adds some personality to the watch :-!


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

pepsidiver said:


> Instead of deleting those posts, Doxa should address these real concerns by Doxa customers, instead of dealing with them by deleting posts. Period!!! Not a good way to run a company. And certainly not a good way to win over possible new customers.
> 
> Todd.


I'm sorry, did I miss something? Are you a Doxa customer??


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

Seamaster73 said:


> Delete the forum altogether then. It serves no useful purpose if one side of it can arbitrarily decide what goes and what doesn't. So much for discussion, debate and the free exchange of information.


Hi Seamaster73. I do not think that the large community of DOXA owners will applaud to your suggestion. This is an official brand forum and it is a nice place for all DOXA owners to exchange knowledge and not to bash, lie and complain. If this is the type of forum you expect than the DOXA forum is obviously not the right place to be for you. BTW. I never saw you here before and you do not own a DOXA. Did you join the crowd to teach DOXA and the DOXA forum members how to use and run this forum? The forum has been set up 5 years ago and the minority that complains about it are usually those who never contribute and seldomly visit and post here, unless there is something to complain about. If you do not own a DOXA, you will never understand what it means to be part of this great community and if you get carried away with lies and rumors then you should reconsider your view. positive aspects dominate the forum and this community, and negativeness is not really appreciated by those who spend time and money on a hobby to enjoy their lives and their hard earned money.

If you have any constructive input for the DOXA members, you are welcome to stay and contribute to this great place.

John P.


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## siddhartha (Feb 15, 2006)

In the past, I have had nothing but good experiences with Doxa watches, and their customer support. I was fortunate to own the 300T reissue Divingstar, the 600T Divingstar, and now own the 600 Tgraph Sharkhunter.

All were better than stated, in terms of finishing, quality, and timekeeping. I had a minor issue with the caseback of the 600T (as did a few others) which was quickly/professionally addressed, and served to influence the design of the casebacks to follow. 

I admit, I was worried after reading the posts of the past few days, but I feel that Doxa has stood up, and handled this correctly. I do not mind them deleting posts that are not constructive, or merely ask the same questions that have been asked-why is that? 

In the end, the product speaks for itself-it is a fantastic, well-made watch, and has a company that stands behind it. If the hat supplied with my TGraph is made in China, so be it-the watch is 100% Swiss Made. I have no doubt about that, and believe just as I believe it when Rolex, and Omega say the same.

If you have valid questions for John, or Rick, ask them, but don't insult them, or waste their time with nonsense. You asked if the watch was Swiss made-it is. Are some components like bands/hats/t-shirts potentially made off site? Maybe, but does that matter-no! 

THE WATCH IS SWISS MADE!

Chris


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

siddhartha said:


> In the past, I have had nothing but good experiences with Doxa watches, and their customer support. I was fortunate to own the 300T reissue Divingstar, the 600T Divingstar, and now own the 600 Tgraph Sharkhunter.
> 
> All were better than stated, in terms of finishing, quality, and timekeeping. I had a minor issue with the caseback of the 600T (as did a few others) which was quickly/professionally addressed, and served to influence the design of the casebacks to follow.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head!!! Great line of thinking.......


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## diverx (Jan 20, 2007)

*Re: Where can I find some of the personalities...*

Just go to the bottom of the Doxa forum homepage and click on one of the moderators names. You can send a personal message to one of them with any question you may have. Have a great day.|>


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

jclevoy said:


> I'm sorry, did I miss something? Are you a Doxa customer??


Yes I am. Are you?

Todd.


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## pepsidiver (Mar 6, 2007)

DOXA S.A. said:


> Dear Todd, exactly because you are one among those who think this way. I explained my point. There is no point of publically addressing lies. There is a big difference between "bad of DOXA" and "lies". not all threads on the forum are good for DOXA and they do not get deleted, only public insults, offenses, inapropriate language, lies and vicious attempts of slander and libel are deleted. Our business ethics do not allow us to reply in public to the above and the forum rules clearly states that type of postings mentioned above are inadequate and inacceptable on this forum, and will be removed. We prefer to be cosidered censoring the forum than publically insulting and replying to insults made towards DOXA on the forum.
> 
> As I said, I would rather be called names I obviously hate to hear than to try to spend so much effort and cause so many debates trying to justify the truth and publically condemning and uncovering the truth behind the initiator of the thread. I saw that happen several times before and all I received was more bashing from fellow members, how dare DOXA (the big giant) publically attack a forum member (usually someone who never owned or dealt with DOXA before) and that this should be handeled privately. The essence of this discussion is "I will never be able to please everyone". So please let me do it in the most peaceful and courtous way, by contacting every contributor to the thread and personally clarifying issues with them directly. In most cases, this is appreciated method by the poster and leaves no bad taste on the forum.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

Todd.


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## mambo (Mar 23, 2007)

I am a just-about-to-be vintage Ddoxa owner. I am fairly new to the forum so have no axe to grind and have had minimal contact with anybody. I would hope that my opinions are neutral. I will post my thoughts on what I have read over the last few days.

1. Doxa is a company in the business of making money for it's owners. This is any company's priority. If you can keep your customers happy, then even better.
2. Maximisation of profits may require the outsourcing of certain parts. Whilst I am in no way suggesting that Doxa does this and am quite happy to accept their word on this, the watches work and are nice, so would it really matter if some parts were made in China? I am a Hi Fi enthusiast, both my amp and CD player are made in China. The amp is a US design and I got to speak to the designer of the amp on several occasions. He explained that as long as quality control checks were in place, it was possible to produce the exact same quality in China as the USA. Other US built amps used chinese sourced parts anyway. The chinese-built product retailed at $4,000 whilst, had he had to manufacture in the US the product would have to retail at $8,000.
3. This forum belongs to Doxa so whether we like it or not we agree to post here within their company policy. I for one hate censorship, particularly where the power of cencorship is held by the interested and biased party, but you accept those rules when you post here. If you don't like it, don't post.
4. From the posts of his I have read and from the reaction of many Doxa owners to John's "I've been fired thread", it would seem he provided exemplary customer service over and above what one would normally expect. I suppose the fact that he is a big Doxa enthusiast; as his own Doxa collection would suggest, goes some way towards explaining that. 
5. Reading between the lines, there was a disagreement of sorts between himself and management. which led to him being dismissed. When you are as passionate as John obviously is you can get into an altruistic/idealistic mindset about the direction you think the object of your passion should take. This may well conflict with sound business sense. I suspect that the truth may well lie within a similar scenario.
6. Was John wrong to bring his dismissal into the public arena - perhaps. But one has to understand when you are that passionate about something and you have made many friends on a forum such as this, you want to shout to the world that you have been wronged as you see it and you look to your friends to support you through the rough patch. Again, I guess that John's post was along those lines - "Look guys can you believe I've been fired after all the effort I've put into this"...

It is good to see that rather than getting into a slanging match, they appear to have behaved like the responsible adults they are, and avoided getting into a long-term slagging match that would have done nothing positive for either party.


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## Motors1841 (Apr 17, 2006)

Guys,

I agree with Todd on his stand, i work in the law enforcement field. Here in my job we seek the truth and only the truth. John V. e-mailed numerous people including myself with troubling facts about Doxa and it's " I don't care about the American customer/ China made parts/ 11 extra dials etc, etc... I like many here still have all the e-mails sent back and forth between John V. , John P. and [email protected] There was alot of disturbing words stated. All we Doxa owner want is the TRUTH.......remember the old saying " people say the truth when mad "............

Manny

ps: yes i have owned and own Doxa watches....


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## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

I also work in law enforcement and have for many years (going on 13). Doxa has stated numerous times that they are not going into the details of what has happened over the past few days. They also addressed the situation about the 11 extra dials, parts being made in China and other allegations. As usual, people will question Doxa's response, or say that's not enough of an answer for me. 

At some point enough is enough. Some people just want to continually ask questions for no reason. Seriously considering a Doxa, and this is weighing your decision? Call the 800 number for Doxa, speak to an actual person and have your questions answered. This is an official forum owned and run by Doxa. Want to vent and question Doxa in a thread? Don't do it here.. WUS has many forums, the public is one. If you think it is a valid thread, start it there and if those Moderators deem it to be a valid thread, then it will stand. If it violates the rules and guidelines, then it will be removed....


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

Motors1841 said:


> Guys,
> 
> I agree with Todd on his stand, i work in the law enforcement field. Here in my job we seek the truth and only the truth. John V. e-mailed numerous people including myself with troubling facts about Doxa and it's " I don't care about the American customer/ China made parts/ 11 extra dials etc, etc... I like many here still have all the e-mails sent back and forth between John V. , John P. and [email protected] There was alot of disturbing words stated. All we Doxa owner want is the TRUTH.......remember the old saying " people say the truth when mad "............
> 
> ...


Manny, John at Doxa has already responded to these allegations, at least as far as the Chinese parts and the 11 extra dials. As for alleged remarks made by Mr Jenny, well, in law enforcement don't you require proof? Where's the proof? All I saw was 'someone said that someone else said that........'. I'm not sure of the legal term - innuendo, maybe? Regardless, it comes down to a 'he said -she said' argument. Who you believe is up to you. I believe Doxa.

There's also another old saying: In Vino Veritas. In Wine is Truth. Maybe we should all get drunk together and see what comes out! :-d

Please let Doxa proceed with their resolution of this matter without stoking the embers. Please.

Paul


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## DoxaDavid (Dec 22, 2006)

mambo said:


> I am a just-about-to-be vintage Ddoxa owner. I am fairly new to the forum so have no axe to grind and have had minimal contact with anybody. I would hope that my opinions are neutral. I will post my thoughts on what I have read over the last few days.
> 
> 1. Doxa is a company in the business of making money for it's owners. This is any company's priority. If you can keep your customers happy, then even better.
> 2. Maximisation of profits may require the outsourcing of certain parts. Whilst I am in no way suggesting that Doxa does this and am quite happy to accept their word on this, the watches work and are nice, so would it really matter if some parts were made in China? I am a Hi Fi enthusiast, both my amp and CD player are made in China. The amp is a US design and I got to speak to the designer of the amp on several occasions. He explained that as long as quality control checks were in place, it was possible to produce the exact same quality in China as the USA. Other US built amps used chinese sourced parts anyway. The chinese-built product retailed at $4,000 whilst, had he had to manufacture in the US the product would have to retail at $8,000.
> ...


Elegantly stated Mambo. I would agree to all you said and your insight I believe very close to the mark.

David


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## Malyel (Mar 30, 2006)

As much as it hurt to read the accusations made the other day, we have to move on. I am a Doxa owner and unless I see proof to back up the accusations I will not abandon Doxa. I hope we all can just move on.


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## subkrawler (Oct 26, 2006)

pepsidiver said:


> Yes I am. Are you?
> 
> Todd.


Todd, read Jason's signature. I think you'll find your answer:-d


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## opava5 (Apr 17, 2006)

*The truth is lost in the censorship*

I"m not here to take sides either away. I understand that this is "DOXA's" forum, we use it, and we have to play by their rules, blah blah blah, and I don't need to be reminded again, so please do not bother. The only reason I see to leave in all the posts in their unredacted form is that those that are deleted tend to become infamous. People, not having read them, will only be able to guess what was said and what all the controversy is about. Things then get speculated on the blown out of proportion. The truth is lost in the censorship. This is why we live in countries governed by laws that allow for the free exchange/transfer of information. Why secret police are not tolerated, and why freedom of the press is the 1st amendment to the constitution. Again, I know, DOXA owns the forum, its their rules, blah blah blah blah. I'm not arguing that they should not be allowed to govern their own "privately" owned forum, I'm just trying to explain why to some, there's an inherent distrust of censorship, and why some here are uncomfortable with it.



pepsidiver said:


> Why not? How do you know if the statements are false or not? We need to let all the posts be read, so that everyone can decide for themselves.
> 
> Who are you to decide for me, or anyone else, what is true and what is not? I am my own man, and will decide based on what I read. I don't need, or want, you to decide for me what I can read. And I certainly don't want YOU to decide for me!!! This cannot be done when massive censorship is being practiced.
> 
> ...


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## JCJM (May 2, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



opava5 said:


> I"m not here to take sides either away. I understand that this is "DOXA's" forum, we use it, and we have to play by their rules, blah blah blah, and I don't need to be reminded again, so please do not bother. The only reason I see to leave in all the posts in their unredacted form is that those that are deleted tend to become infamous. People, not having read them, will only be able to guess what was said and what all the controversy is about. Things then get speculated on the blown out of proportion. The truth is lost in the censorship. This is why we live in countries governed by laws that allow for the free exchange/transfer of information. Why secret police are not tolerated, and why freedom of the press is the 1st amendment to the constitution. Again, I know, DOXA owns the forum, its their rules, blah blah blah blah. I'm not arguing that they should not be allowed to govern their own "privately" owned forum, I'm just trying to explain why to some, there's an inherent distrust of censorship, and why some here are uncomfortable with it.


Well, I can nothing but agree wholeheartedly with above statements. As a teacher of marketing I have used this very forum to show my students how not to communicate with your clients. And I am sure I am not the only one.

Sure - its the companys forum and the company uses it for promoting itself and its products. That is understandable and there is nothing wrong with it. What is not understandable is that the company takes its customers as fools. - *If customers dont like the rules of the official forum go change them *and maybe win some new customers and gain some of that trust that has been melting away. The official policy seems to be "Doxa way or the highway". Many choose the latter, and I am one of them until the company shifts its attitude. The offering is supposedly very good, the presentation of it really leaves much to improve.

I will time how long it takes this will be erased.

And please - do not reply with email nor PM. I believe in transparency and I think its time for you too.


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## jstawasz (Feb 8, 2007)

I bought my first Doxa in 2003 shortly after missing the last 300T reissue. This is before there was a Doxa USA. A very nice lady in Bienne named Geraldine told me about the new 600T reissue before it was even on the website and would I like to purchase that? Since I had missed out on the original Doxa back in the 70's I was not going to let a piece of dive history slip through my fingers again. It was and is everything I expected. My new 750T Searambler also meets my expectations. Anyhow, like John P I havn't logged onto the Forum for a couple of days and I can't believe all these people badmouthing Doxa and implying that us Doxaholics are either idiots for having faith in Doxa or are freedom haters for following forum rules. MY reply to those who are trying to disrupt the site is read the rules before you register. If you can't live by them, don't agree to them. Doxa has answered all questions so quit beating a dead horse. I have seen people ripping other watch brands on other forums and I thought this forum was immune untill now. Watch collecting is supposed to be fun. If you want investments that will make you money invest in the market. If you are so cynical that you suspect the entire Swiss watch industry of personally ripping you off I suggest you get a new hobby. This forum is supposed to be about the watches Vintage and new. and the people that collect them. Life is too short for this kind of crap. 

Joe


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## JCJM (May 2, 2006)

jstawasz said:


> I bought my first Doxa in 2003 shortly after missing the last 300T reissue. This is before there was a Doxa USA. A very nice lady in Bienne named Geraldine told me about the new 600T reissue before it was even on the website and would I like to purchase that? Since I had missed out on the original Doxa back in the 70's I was not going to let a piece of dive history slip through my fingers again. It was and is everything I expected. My new 750T Searambler also meets my expectations. Anyhow, like John P I havn't logged onto the Forum for a couple of days and I can't believe all these people badmouthing Doxa and implying that us Doxaholics are either idiots for having faith in Doxa or are freedom haters for following forum rules. MY reply to those who are trying to disrupt the site is read the rules before you register. If you can't live by them, don't agree to them. Doxa has answered all questions so quit beating a dead horse. I have seen people ripping other watch brands on other forums and I thought this forum was immune untill now. Watch collecting is supposed to be fun. If you want investments that will make you money invest in the market. If you are so cynical that you suspect the entire Swiss watch industry of personally ripping you off I suggest you get a new hobby. This forum is supposed to be about the watches Vintage and new. and the people that collect them. Life is too short for this kind of crap.
> 
> Joe


I agree - watch collecting is fun. I have or have had Seikos, Certinas, IWC´s, Omegas, Tudors, Glycines, RXW´s, G-Shocks and Baume & Merciers among others that I have enjoyed and continue to enjoy. Most of the watches I have at the moment are Swiss. I also have been pretty close to buy one or two Doxas but havent, and wont, as I have a problem with the policy of the official Doxa forum.

IMHO if people are are not allowed to speak freely of all the attributes that make a watch - those including quality control issues, origin of parts and labor, advertising ethics and so on there is something seriously wrong. Best publicity practice is always complete transparency. In the end truth will always stand tall.

As of Doxaholics being idiots, you said it. Not me. Naiiv? - maybe some. Ignorant - perhaps. Or more likely, most people couldnt care less if they just like their watch. Contrary to what you say Doxa hasnt answered all questions and most likely wont. It gives vague answers and censors all voices that dare to raise their head from the tamed status quo.

I am not questioning anyones faith in Doxa. - What I am seriously questioning however, is Doxas faith in their clients. In a word You.

The discussion of Doxa, its policies and products will continue in other forums. If the company were wiser it would let it happen here where it could answer to it directly. Most likely it wont and as a result the faith of many to Doxa will stumble. It already has and will continue as long as the over monitoring, censoring and smokes and mirrors answering will continue.

Best of luck on your chose path.

I wont beat a dead horse anymore. Draw your own conclusions and if your mileage varies from mine thats Ok. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



JCJM said:


> Well, I can nothing but agree wholeheartedly with above statements. As a teacher of marketing I have used this very forum to show my students how not to communicate with your clients. And I am sure I am not the only one.
> 
> Sure - its the companys forum and the company uses it for promoting itself and its products. That is understandable and there is nothing wrong with it. What is not understandable is that the company takes its customers as fools. - *If customers dont like the rules of the official forum go change them *and maybe win some new customers and gain some of that trust that has been melting away. The official policy seems to be "Doxa way or the highway". Many choose the latter, and I am one of them until the company shifts its attitude. The offering is supposedly very good, the presentation of it really leaves much to improve.
> 
> ...


I don't understand something, maybe you can elaborate. Why should Doxa change the rules of their forum to accomodate a vocal, but very few, individuals who feel that everything posted here should stand as it's written? You said it yourself: it is Doxas forum and they use it to promote themselves and their products. To that end they developed rules for participating on this forum. If you violate those rules, the violations will be deleted. Why is this so hard? We have rules everywhere, and penalties for breaking them. Try driving whatever speed you want wherever you go and see how long you're allowed to stay on the road. The vast majority of the members here abide by the rules. There are always a few who feel the rules do not or should not apply to _them_, because _their _post is perfect or more valid or whatever. I've deleted personal attacks against other members, things like "You're an idiot if you think that way". Yet you seem to feel that this type of interaction is perfectly acceptable. Well, I dont! Doxa has worked hard to keep this forum a friendly and informative place for Doxa owners and lovers to meet and discuss Doxas. I noticed you said the offering is _supposedly _very good. That tells me you don't own a Doxa. So you're willing to jump into the fray, slamming Doxa for their policies on _their _forum, yet you're not even a customer. How would you feel if I walked in to one of your marketing classes and started disrupting it, saying you don't know what you're talking about, and breaking the _rules _you have set for your class. And I weren't even a student there. Is this acceptable to you?

Doxa doesn't believe their customers are fools. Personally, I believe that a very few people who come here exhibit foolish _behavior_. People who deliberately continue to beat a dead horse, ignore the rules set for the forum, then get indignant and self-righteous when they get caught - to me, this seems foolish.

And I know it's not just me, but the great majority of people who visit this forum and actively participate, also feel this way.

You believe in transparency, and you think it's time for Doxa to, too. Well, you're entitled to your beliefs. As am I. As is Doxa. Transparency in government and how your tax dollars are spent is a good thing, IMO. Trying to force a private company to lay out all their internal business affairs, and trying to tell them how they should run their company and their forum, is not transparency. To me it seems arrogant.

Paul


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## JCJM (May 2, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



Searambler said:


> I don't understand something, maybe you can elaborate. Why should Doxa change the rules of their forum to accomodate a vocal, but very few, individuals who feel that everything posted here should stand as it's written? You said it yourself: it is Doxas forum and they use it to promote themselves and their products. To that end they developed rules for participating on this forum. If you violate those rules, the violations will be deleted. Why is this so hard? We have rules everywhere, and penalties for breaking them. Try driving whatever speed you want wherever you go and see how long you're allowed to stay on the road. The vast majority of the members here abide by the rules. There are always a few who feel the rules do not or should not apply to _them_, because _their _post is perfect or more valid or whatever. I've deleted personal attacks against other members, things like "You're an idiot if you think that way". Yet you seem to feel that this type of interaction is perfectly acceptable. Well, I dont! Doxa has worked hard to keep this forum a friendly and informative place for Doxa owners and lovers to meet and discuss Doxas. I noticed you said the offering is _supposedly _very good. That tells me you don't own a Doxa. So you're willing to jump into the fray, slamming Doxa for their policies on _their _forum, yet you're not even a customer. How would you feel if I walked in to one of your marketing classes and started disrupting it, saying you don't know what you're talking about, and breaking the _rules _you have set for your class. And I weren't even a student there. Is this acceptable to you?
> 
> Doxa doesn't believe their customers are fools. Personally, I believe that a very few people who come here exhibit foolish _behavior_. People who deliberately continue to beat a dead horse, ignore the rules set for the forum, then get indignant and self-righteous when they get caught - to me, this seems foolish.
> 
> ...


Ive handled Doxas and liked them. Otherwise I wouldn't have considered buying them. The only problem I have with Doxa is that people are not allowed to speak freely of all the attributes that make a watch - those including quality control issues, origin of parts and labor, advertising ethics and so on.

I am not saying Doxa should reveal its manufacturing costs and things like that in the public. What I am saying it should give people straight answers, even when they are asking difficult questions. - You say this place is informative and yet every time someone dares to ask something that is controversial to the portrayed quality image of Doxa those people who are gathering information possibly even for making a calculated judgment on whether to buy or not to buy their first Doxa will get either banned or their post is censored. - What is missing on this forum is open discussion on all facts of the Doxa watches. Not just those that best fit the portrayed image of them.

There is life outside this forum too and Doxa the company and its offerings are widely discussed elsewhere where the speech is free and one can draw his on conclusions from the facts presented. By forcing all the critics and doubters to speak where you cannot answer them wont do any good to neither Doxa nor the small WIS pond where we all virtually live in.

No one is perfect - no human nor company, but those who will look at the facts and accept their faults will mature by correcting them.

So yeah, I am not even a customer.


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## Chris127 (Mar 17, 2007)

Well said Paul, and I agree 100 percent. I am new to this forum but agree that these issues have been beaten to death. I think you guys at Doxa have done a great job responding to the accusations, and limiting the flame posts. I will admit that when the emails came out my confidence in Doxa was a bit shaken, but after I thought about it, I realized they were just complaints from an irate person (no offense to John V. he has been great and will be missed) that probably wouldn't have surfaced if his situation was handled differently internally. Again I feel that Doxa adequately responded to the accusations, and has restored my confidence, to the point that I already purchased my 2nd Doxa. I think everyone should let issue rest and move on.

Chris


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## W. C. Bartlett (Feb 14, 2006)

*Doxa you still have not addressed the warrantry issue.*

****************************************************************
*Added by the DOXA forum Admin:*
****************************************************************

*First of all, what warranty issues are you talking about exactly? Are there any warranty issues? Or did you hear from someone who heard that someone told him that he heard that there could be a warranty issue?. There is not a single open warranty issue to date Sir !! *

*Every watch that has shown any manufacturing fault over the past years, was repaired and returned back to the customers, all free of charge and if one has slipped through, I will be more than happy to fix it for free. just point me to one case and I will take care of it immediately.*

*We sometimes repair watches that were damaged by their owners, free of charge.*

*John*


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



JCJM said:


> Ive handled Doxas and liked them. Otherwise I wouldn't have considered buying them. The only problem I have with Doxa is that people are not allowed to speak freely of all the attributes that make a watch - those including quality control issues, origin of parts and labor, advertising ethics and so on.
> 
> I am not saying Doxa should reveal its manufacturing costs and things like that in the public. What I am saying it should give people straight answers, even when they are asking difficult questions. - You say this place is informative and yet every time someone dares to ask something that is controversial to the portrayed quality image of Doxa those people who are gathering information possibly even for making a calculated judgment on whether to buy or not to buy their first Doxa will get either banned or their post is censored. - What is missing on this forum is open discussion on all facts of the Doxa watches. Not just those that best fit the portrayed image of them.
> 
> ...


You're right, no one is perfect. If the Doxa forum rules and guidelines, and the moderation of the Doxa forum, are so odious to you, then I can't help. Because these things are not going to change because you think they should. Doxa will just have to take the chance that its customers worldwide - both current and potential customers - understand the appeal of the brand, the value of its products, and the _extra_ benefit of having a forum (however imperfect) to meet and interact in.

Paul


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

> W. C. Bartlett : Doxa you still have not addressed the warranty issue.
> 
> 
> > Sorry Bill, but font size 5 hurt my eyes.
> ...


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*

Well now I appreciate this wise tone. But what I do not understand, what did I leave unanswered? I put a statement and a reply to every question asked in the last 48 hours. If you are talking about why John left DOXA. It is obvious that this is pure business issue between John and DOXA. If John decides to give you details on this, it is his choice, but as a company that respects and run by simple rules of business integrity. You will never hear us airing dirty laundry publicly.

John


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## MarkJnK (Nov 10, 2006)

Come on guys, enough already. I have been contributing to this forum for about 6 months. I came here with lots of questions, and many criticisms of their designs. I presented my views politely, and constructively and not a single one of my posts has been deleted. Some lead to very interesteing dialogue between members. I'm not here to simply blow sunshine up Doxa's backside, if they are doing something I don't like, I say it on the forum, politely and maturely, and it doesn't get deleted. Doxa is a business and I respect that. You should too. 

Allowing people to trash Doxa in a Public official forum without moderation as like someone coming to your work and standing in your cubicle on a soapbox and slandering your work or calling your clients and telling them that you suck. How long would you allow that to happen before trying to moderate the problem?


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## slucas (Feb 11, 2006)

*Nice to have someone else take the heat for a change.*

Last time there was this much interest was when i put my Divingstar 600T up for sale. thank God that's over with.

But seriously, 
John P. keep of the good work and hang in there. I don't envy you.
Doxa back him up please.

Doxas are sweet watches for the price. I had the crown come out of my 750T Pro one day when i attempted to change date. Sent it in and had it back on my wrist in a week. Kudos.


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## gnuse (Jan 3, 2007)

This is truly a new and strange world we live in. Especially when the decision to be a customer or not is based on forum posts. I'm glad things are being discussed in a civil, open manner within the constraints of DOXA's rules. Personally my doubts from earlier this week have been eased and even some from months earlier. Now if I could just get "obie" to put moderator after his name, I wouldn't have to know what the "m" means. o|;-)


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## Jason71 (Jan 30, 2007)

I wish Doxa would suspend this thread already so that we could get back to talking about watches.........


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## shark bait bob (Feb 9, 2006)

With all this talk about Doxa this and Doxa that I was hoping to see a few for sale on the sites so I can pick up more Doxas for the collection. Unfortunately there has not been a mad rush to sell. That has to say something about the watch, the company, and how we love our Doxas. Thanks.|>


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## JCJM (May 2, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



Searambler said:


> You're right, no one is perfect. If the Doxa forum rules and guidelines, and the moderation of the Doxa forum, are so odious to you, then I can't help. Because these things are not going to change because you think they should. Doxa will just have to take the chance that its customers worldwide - both current and potential customers - understand the appeal of the brand, the value of its products, and the _extra_ benefit of having a forum (however imperfect) to meet and interact in.
> 
> Paul


Paul - one question and then I´ll shut up. Could you give me *solid argumentation* why cant things like quality control, origin of parts and labor or advertising claims be discussed openly? - These are the three major issues that people getting banned or posts being deleted focus on. Let me repeat it - I ask for solid argumentation - not mushy lawyer talk about rules nor ownership of the forum. - Please!

Thank you.


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## jbuick (Feb 16, 2007)

jclevoy said:


> I wish Doxa would suspend this thread already so that we could get back to talking about watches.........


Nobody is forcing anybody to post to this most popular of forums:-d :-d :-d


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## Synchron (May 3, 2005)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



JCJM said:


> Paul - one question and then I´ll shut up. Could you give me *solid argumentation* why cant things like quality control, origin of parts and labor or advertising claims be discussed openly? - These are the three major issues that people getting banned or posts being deleted focus on. Let me repeat it - I ask for solid argumentation - not mushy lawyer talk about rules nor ownership of the forum. - Please!
> 
> Thank you.


Hi,

Quality control: we do our best and we stand behind our product and supply best customer service in the business. with the forum small percentages of service issues might burst. We still have one of the lowest repair and returns in the industry. look around any you will find out yourself
Origin of every product: was listed on top of this thread
Advertising: I dont understand exactly what you mean

john


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## Studebaker Hawk (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



DOXA S.A. said:


> If you are talking about why John left DOXA. It is obvious that this is pure business issue between John and DOXA. If John decides to give you details on this, it is his choice, but as a company that respects and run by simple rules of business integrity. You will never hear us airing dirty laundry publicly.
> 
> John


Amen . . . and well put. I have been doing Human Resources consulting for 15 years, and reasons for termination are no one else's business, legally, professionally, and ethically.

I Still have my Doxas and think that you are handling this "mess" very professionally. I think that most companies and brands would stick there head in the sand, or maybe issue a single statement, at best. You are taking the time to pro-actively respond to you customers' (and potential customers') concerns.

I am very satisfied in your actions and responses (and patience with many postings). Thank you for taking the necessary time. As a business this is something that should be done, but is so often not.


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## Searambler (Feb 10, 2006)

*Re: The truth is lost in the censorship*



JCJM said:


> Paul - one question and then I´ll shut up. Could you give me *solid argumentation* why cant things like quality control, origin of parts and labor or advertising claims be discussed openly? - These are the three major issues that people getting banned or posts being deleted focus on. Let me repeat it - I ask for solid argumentation - not mushy lawyer talk about rules nor ownership of the forum. - Please!
> 
> Thank you.


LOL! I'm not a lawyer, sorry if what I've said here and in all the other threads sounds like mushy lawyer talk. I'm just a guy who owns and loves my Doxas. Doxa doesn't pay me to sit here and do everything I do on the forum - I do it because I want to, and (mostly!) enjoy doing it. I frankly don't know any other way to express Doxas policies and procedures relating to the operation of this forum. It's their forum. They have rules for posting here. Violations of those rules will have consequences. I'm sorry if you do not get this, or choose to ignore it, or feel you are owed more. May I suggest you send your request for a different answer directly to Doxa? *Let me repeat it* - send your request *directly* to Doxa, and stop posting it here on the forum. This is not the place.

I think it's time to close this thread. John, if you feel the need, you can re-open it.

Paul


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