# seiko solar GPS



## ronalddheld

eiko Astron. The World's First GPS Solar Watch.
- TOKYO, Japan, March 5, 2012 -

The watch that understands all the 39 official time zones.
At last, the search for totally precise time, everywhere on the planet, is over. By developing our own, patented, low-energy-consumption GPS receiver, Seiko has been able to create a watch that can receive GPS signals and identify time zone, time and date data using the global network of GPS satellites. It recognizes all the 39 time zones on earth. This breakthrough timepiece is called Seiko Astron. Like its celebrated 1969 predecessor which was the World's First quartz watch, the new Seiko Astron developed under the supervision of Seiko Epson Corporation, ushers in a new age of timekeeping technology. Seiko Astron will be released simultaneously in all markets of the world this autumn. Could this be the most intelligent watch ever built ?

Seiko Astron GPS Solar. The World's First truly global watch.

No part of the planet is beyond the
reach of the GPS satellite network.
Accurate time, anywhere on earth.
Once a day, Seiko Astron receives the time signal automatically and, on demand, connects to four or more of the GPS satellites that orbit the earth, thus pinpointing its position and identifying the time zone and the exact time. The hands adjust automatically to the correct local time with Atomic Clock precision. The new Seiko Astron is solar powered, so never needs a battery change, and it also has a perpetual calendar, so the date will always be as accurate as the time.

A complete collection, with innovation in every detail
Seiko Astron is not just a watch. It's already a collection. There are three models in high-intensity titanium, which is stronger than stainless steel but has only 60% of its weight, and two in stainless steel. All have ceramic bezels, the same functions and high specifications, including a dual time sub-dial, in-flight mode indicator and sapphire crystal with Super-Clear Coating*.

The elegance and legibility of the dials disguise the richness of the information that can be displayed. In addition to the traditional date and dual time displays, the status of the GPS signal is indicated by the second hand and indicator at 10 o'clock position when the appropriate button is pressed. At a glance, you see whether a GPS signal has been received, and from how many satellites and whether Daylight Saving Time is activated.

The secret is in energy management
Why now and why Seiko? To combine Seiko's solar technology with GPS required years of painstaking and ground-breaking R&D by Seiko Epson Corporation, which has resulted in no less than 100 patent applications. Only Seiko's advanced energy-efficiency technology could invent the miniature GPS receiver that requires so little energy to receive GPS signals from four or more satellites. Only Seiko's unrivalled skills in micro-engineering could package this technology into a watch that is just 47 mm in diameter and weighs about 135 grams (with high intensity titanium case and bracelet). And only Seiko's advanced IC circuitry expertise could make it possible for the watch to divide the world into one million 'squares' and allocate a time zone to each.

Convenient, simple and easy to wear.
Seiko Astron may be intelligent, but to wear it is a simple joy. When you step off a plane, just press the button and the time and time zone adjust automatically. It takes six seconds or a little more for the time to self-correct (to better than one second every 100,000 years!) and 30 seconds or a little more for the time zone, and the adjustment takes place whether you are stationary or on the move. So, if you can see the sky, you will know the time. The adjustment to or from Daylight Saving Time or Summer Time is also a one-touch operation, and the date is also always exact; Seiko Astron's perpetual calendar is correct until February, 2100. The ease of use is further enhanced by Seiko's solar technology which ensures that maintenance is never an issue. The watch takes power from all kinds of light and never needs a battery change.
Never before has time management been so simple. Wherever you travel, the new Seiko Astron will keep you on time. Effortlessly.

The Seiko GPS Solar Astron collection comprises designs in
both high-intensity titanium and stainless steel.

*sapphire crystal with Super-Clear Coating.
Our proprietary newly-developed anti-reflective coating, applied on both the front and back of the glass.
It prevents 99% of light reflection and allows the dial to be easily legible, even in bright light.

Specifications:

Seiko Astron GPS Solar
Caliber 7X52Hour, minute and second handsDate calendarPerpetual calendar correct to February 2100Signal reception result indicationWorld time function (39 Time Zones)Daylight Saving Time functionPower saving functionAccuracy: +/-15 seconds per month(without receiving a time signal and in temperatures between 5°C and 35°C)..........Case:High-intensity titanium with black hard coating with ceramic bezel (SAST007)
High-intensity titanium with ceramic bezel (SAST003/005)
Stainless Steel with ceramic bezel (SAST009)
Stainless Steel with black hard coating with ceramic bezel (SAST011)

Case diameter: 47.0 mm, thickness: 16.5 mmBand: High-intensity titanium with black hard coating with three-fold clasp with push button release (SAST007)
High-intensity titanium with three-fold clasp with push button release (SAST003/005)
Extra-strength silicon with three-fold clasp with push button release (SAST009/011)

Glass:Sapphire crystal with Super-Clear CoatingWater resistance:10 barMagnetic resistance:4,800 A/mRecommended retail price in Japan:JPY 152,250 - 210,000.For further information: Public Relations & Advertising Dept.
Seiko Watch Corporation
Tel: +81-3-6739-2151 Fax: +81-3-6739-2071
eMail: [email protected]


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## artec

Interesting.... thank you for finding and posting that. It will be even more interesting to see more about these phenomena as the information emerges.

47 mm, though!


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## shtora

Here's what I found:

SEIKO ASTRON - ????????????


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## everose

Brilliant !!! 

This will probably top anything i read about from Basel !!!

I like the Astron link too !!!

Thank You for posting !


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## webvan

Nice but HUGE both width and thickness and I'm not sure why there is the 02/2100 limitation on the calendar, the date doesn't synch with the GPS signal?


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## ronalddheld

This and the Citizen GPS watch are not small.


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## gaijin

webvan said:


> Nice but HUGE both width and thickness and I'm not sure why there is the 02/2100 limitation on the calendar, the date doesn't synch with the GPS signal?


Yes. Time, Day and Date all sync with the GPS signal.

Two models will be initially available. The Titanium model:










And the Stainless model:










It's about time (no pun intended ;-))!

Solar GPS time sync - I can hardly wait.

Cal.45 will hate it, of course, but I think it's great!


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## webvan

Cal.45 ?



> Yes. Time, Day and Date all sync with the GPS signal.


Where did you read that?

This is from the official specs : 


> Perpetual calendar correct to February 2100


Again, something's wrong there

Having given it more thought and having owned several Garmin GPS watches (yes the first ones were huge) and now the TomTom/Nike GPS watch with a 40 day battery life, I'm not sure I'm too excited about that GPS watch, maybe if it was 42mm? Still it's an RC watch on steroids and these watches are not too exciting, a TC watch that works "alone" to keep the time and that can be carefully tweaked if need be (ETA or old quartz with trimmer) is somehow more "magical" to me, but it's probably just me ;-)


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## artec

No, Webvan, it's definitely not "just you". I feel exactly the same and I believe there are a good many others. That's not to say that I don't think that both RC and GPS control have their advantages and their place, but they are both 15 seconds per month watches that get adjusted every day.... just not by the owner.

I think the RC and GPS controlled watches appeal to people who want high accuracy for practical reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that, while people who want inherent accuracy want it for practical reasons but also for some additional satisfaction conferred by the independence of the TC movement. I'm not sure that I understand my own logic here, if it is logic, but I know I'd rather have my 5.5 seconds per year Chronomaster (even though it's outside its own spec) and my 3.4 spy Grand Seiko than the RC Citizen that I recently bought. It has been about 0.3 to 0.4 seconds adrift each time I've checked it and I'm sure it will never be worse than that, but I don't get nearly the satisfaction from it that I get from the other two I mentioned.

Quite aside from the external dependence of RC watches and the Citizen and Seiko GPS controlled models, the two GPS models are monstrous. I don't remember how big the Appleseed is but 47 mm x 16.5 mm for the Seiko is definitely too big for me. I've sold watches that I otherwise quite liked solely because they were 42 or 43 mm in diameter. I know that's not everyone's view but it's certainly an added disadvantage for GPS as far as I'm concerned.

Should we conclude that the size of these GPS models is to be attributed to the needs of the GPS connection?


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## gaijin

webvan said:


> Cal.45 ?
> 
> Where did you read that?


Cal.45 is a member here who believes that anything solar powered is an abomination.

If you watch the "World Time" section of the videa here: SEIKO ASTRON - ???????????? you will note the Time, Day and Date all changing as appropriate as the watch goes around the world.

HTH


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## webvan

Still not trying to understand why there is the usual 02/2100 limitation eh ? Oh well, I've pointed it out twice already...

@Artec - thanks for elaborating on my point, I'd also add that RC being available in $100 watches (possibly less) it also takes away a bit of the "magic" and exclusivity of HAQ.


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## petew

artec said:


> Should we conclude that the size of these GPS models is to be attributed to the needs of the GPS connection?


My thought is the size has more to do with the battery/power requirements than the GPS connection. There are GPS watches out there now that are considerably smaller, albeit with drastically reduced run times. I've got a Garmin that's normal watch sized. However it will only run 3 weeks in normal time only mode..and that's only powering an LCD panel. Analog hands probably require even more energy.


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## Catalin

ronalddheld said:


> eiko Astron. The World's First GPS Solar Watch.
> - TOKYO, Japan, March 5, 2012 -
> ...


I was under the impression that Citizen Appleseed was also GPS Solar ??? :-s :-s :-s


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## gaijin

Catalin said:


> I was under the impression that Citizen Appleseed was also GPS Solar ??? :-s :-s :-s


You're right, but I think with the Appleseed one must tell the watch which time zone it is in - it only gleans UTC time data from the GPS and then the watch displays the time according to the time zone the user sets on the watch.

So, the Seiko Astron is the first GPS Solar watch that automatically changes time zones.

HTH


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## ronalddheld

Has anyone read what the prices will be?


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## Escapemen

webvan said:


> Still not trying to understand why there is the usual 02/2100 limitation eh ? Oh well, I've pointed it out twice already...


Most "perpetual" calendars have a simple 2-bit counter that count a leap year every four years. They do not calculate that every 100 year is not a leap year (2100 is not a leap year), and every 400 year is a leap year (2400 is a leap year).


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## petew

ronalddheld said:


> Has anyone read what the prices will be?


The Japanese prices will range from 152,250 - 210,000 yen. I haven't seen the price quoted for other markets yet.


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## gaijin

petew said:


> The Japanese prices will range from 152,250 - 210,000 yen. I haven't seen the price quoted for other markets yet.


USD 1,800 - USD 2,500?

OK, I'm out.

:-(


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## petew

They prices may or may not translate directly based on the exchange rate. And also, there's a good chance you'd get a discount off of list. That said, they are still expensive.


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## Hans Moleman

Cool technology!
And all that fits inside a watch.

Not too sure about the automatic time zones though, even though it's very impressive.

Timezones seem to be quite fickle. They might need updating after a while.


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## dicioccio

I like the look of this watch. As said by others elsewhere, it is a nice "classic" design, with a clear display and the essential informations provided. Of course we can discuss about details but they're just... details !

The size is a great disadvantage: I like the look, but the size is huge and it is not practical and easy to wear.

We have to thank Seiko to have introduced a good step forward in this technology because it synchronizes automatically to the correct time zone. As pointed out, I don't understand the perpetual calendar "up to feb 2100" feature. In fact the date is easily synchronised with the GPS...

Artec explained very well the vision of TC vs RC/GPS. Leaving apart the practical reasons, once more I have to say I don't understand why TC is not included in RC/GPS package. There are high-end RC watches (i.e. Citizen Exceed) which price wouldn't be affected for sure by the addition of TC. And RC will make much sense because it will correct the quartz aging and will avoid the recalibration processes that are sometimes needed by high-end TC watches.


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## Andrew McGregor

Very cool watch. But... no chrono?

Anyway... TC for the time is missing? Why? That's really, really bizarre because a GPS receiver has to have a TC baseband! So there's a TC system in there, it's just correcting the wrong oscillator... I don't understand what those engineers were thinking.


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## ronalddheld

That is expensive but in line with the Citizen appleseed.


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## sacundim

webvan said:


> Still it's an RC watch on steroids and these watches are not too exciting, a TC watch that works "alone" to keep the time and that can be carefully tweaked if need be (ETA or old quartz with trimmer) is somehow more "magical" to me, but it's probably just me ;-)


I look at it this way: TC is to plain quartz as quartz is to mechanical, while RC is to quartz as automatic winding is to mechanical. TC is about timekeeping, whereas RC is about convenience (the watch sets itself!).

I love RC better than TC, partly because I think intrinsic accuracy in wristwatches is overrated.


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## sacundim

Hans Moleman said:


> Timezones seem to be quite fickle. They might need updating after a while.


This is indeed my biggest fear for this watch. Countries make changes to their timezones and DST rules, and I don't think GPS carries that data (unlike WWVB, which has a "DST in effect" flag).


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## sacundim

Andrew McGregor said:


> Anyway... TC for the time is missing? Why? That's really, really bizarre because a GPS receiver has to have a TC baseband! So there's a TC system in there, it's just correcting the wrong oscillator... I don't understand what those engineers were thinking.


My wild guess is this is related to the low-energy design. I bet all the GPS circuitry must be switched off when not receiving.


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## ronalddheld

No TC based on specs. Yes GPS would be off until manually triggered or the once a day it turns it one.


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## Sabresoft

A little pricey and a little too large, but intriguing nonetheless.


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## ronalddheld

I agree but it is not on my list for this year.


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## artec

And they're still wrist-clocks, though, to my eye, handsome ones.


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## SeikoSam

dicioccio said:


> We have to thank Seiko to have introduced a good step forward in this technology because it synchronizes automatically to the correct time zone. As pointed out, I don't understand the perpetual calendar "up to feb 2100" feature. In fact the date is easily synchronised with the GPS...


At least in RC watches this means that the date will be correct even without syncin till feb 2100...


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## MrMcGoo

The Seikos will be more automated that the Citizen Satelite Wave, i.e., more advanced. Competition is good in my book. Before I buy another GPS watch, I want to see what the competition (Citizen) will offer.

I have a Garmin 910XT to monitor my workouts. It sets the time totally automatically based upon the location it calculates and can get a signal inside my home at times, but the battery only lasts 20 hours before it needs a recharge. My Citizen needs to be outside to get a signal to set the time.

Citizen may have been too early to market. It would not surprise me that the GPS chipset that Seiko uses may be from an outside supplier and even be similar to the chipset Garmin uses except that it must use less power.

Thanks for the link and the information about the Seako specifications.

Bill


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## Andrew McGregor

I'd say it's a certainty that the GPS chipset was made by someone else. Garmin don't OEM their chips, so it won't be a Garmin. But, Trimble, SiRF, SkyTraq, Maxim, and who knows how many others do OEM GPS receivers. The low power part is clearly achieved by keeping the GPS turned off as much as possible.


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## everose

Seiko claim that Astron GPS can even sync whilst you are moving.
If it really can sync so consistently and so effortlessly, then i for one do not see the need for TC.(I know this may not be a popular view around here!)
The argument for TC'ing is diminished over conventional RC imho as a sync should be possible just about anywhere there is sky.
We will soon find out !


I agree that competition is healthy and it appears these GPS Astron Seikos are a clear step or two ahead of Citizens Appleseed in terms of usability.
Seiko also claim a step forward in power consumption issues and i am interested to learn more about this aspect but Seiko seem to have been surprisingly tight-lipped so far.

Even now the specs are not listed on the Astron GPS website. Perhaps some final tweaking is going on.

Here is the site:

SEIKO ASTRON - ???????????? 

How Citizen and/or others respond will be very interesting to see.


Pricing is a very subjective issue.I imagine this GPS Astron will be finished to a level consistent with other models at its price point.
Citizen and Seiko have several conventional RC models in the same price range.Some companies have "humble" non TC quartz models priced above these models.I for one do not think the pricing is so OTT.

I am pleased Seiko are launching a range from the start.I also find the design/styling very pleasing.

I think Hans raises an interesting question regarding occasionally shifting time zones.
If that info is sent to the watch via GPS then it may not be an issue but if it is inbuilt and unalterable then that may not be ideal.

If the watch internally figures out the time zone then i am going to give it a little break on criticising its dimensions quite so much !
For me 16.5mm thickness and 47mm is just about manageable after being used to wearing dive watches for many years.The lugs look to be quite short which should help it wear smaller (..... trying to convince myself !!! :-d )


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## ronalddheld

How many times per day would you need to sync to keep the watch within ~ .03 seconds for the entire day, and what will that do to the battery life/recharge?times?


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## Catalin

everose said:


> Seiko claim that Astron GPS can even sync whilst you are moving.
> If it really can sync so consistently and so effortlessly, then i for one do not see the need for TC.(I know this may not be a popular view around here!)
> ...


There are two things "not so simple" - first of all "while moving" is not telling much - I have seen GPS devices with much, much larger antennas and batteries having problems when NOT moving indoors in many buildings!

Second of course remains the "battery power' - I really wonder what rechargeable battery model they use, but most of those don't have too much power inside and I believe trying to GPS-sync every day will soon kill most rechargeables :roll:


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## gaijin

Catalin said:


> Second of course remains the "battery power' - I really wonder what rechargeable battery model they use, but most of those don't have too much power inside and I believe trying to GPS-sync every day will soon kill most rechargeables :roll:


This from the manual for the Citizen GPS watch "Appleseed:"

*Run time
**Fully charged to fully discharged: 
* *Approximately 2.5 years*
(When receiving the satellite time signal once every two days) 


If Citizen has a comparable product that can go for over 2 years on a charge, I doubt Seiko would be dramatically different. ;-)


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## Catalin

gaijin said:


> This from the manual for the Citizen GPS watch "Appleseed:"
> 
> *Run time
> **Fully charged to fully discharged:
> **Approximately 2.5 years*
> (When receiving the satellite time signal once every two days)
> 
> 
> If Citizen has a comparable product that can go for over 2 years on a charge, I doubt Seiko would be dramatically different. ;-)


I would be tempted to take that as meaning that the battery when full can provide about 400 satellite syncs without further charging - but there is no way I could actually believe that :-s

Is the manual available somewhere as a PDF?


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## ronalddheld

Does the Appleseed sync only when the display is in light?
I have that manual and will find and try to upload it lster today.


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## ronalddheld

I found it quicker than I though initially.


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## Andrew McGregor

Catalin said:


> I would be tempted to take that as meaning that the battery when full can provide about 400 satellite syncs without further charging - but there is no way I could actually believe that :-s
> 
> Is the manual available somewhere as a PDF?


That seems perfectly reasonable, that's implying that it would have a 135 mAh battery (on the basis of 20mW during sync, a 3.7V lithium battery, three minutes of GPS power to do the sync, and 400 syncs). Well, 135mAh of lithium rechargeable will fit in a chunky watch, that's about a 3x8x12mm pouch cell or equivalent volume.


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## petew

Citizen implies in the literature for the Satellite wave that the battery used in the watch is a high capacity cell. I'm sure it's not what you'd see in a normal rechargeable watch is most likely one of the reasons the watch is so large.


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## Catalin

Andrew McGregor said:


> That seems perfectly reasonable, that's implying that it would have a 135 mAh battery (on the basis of 20mW during sync, a 3.7V lithium battery, three minutes of GPS power to do the sync, and 400 syncs). Well, 135mAh of lithium rechargeable will fit in a chunky watch, that's about a 3x8x12mm pouch cell or equivalent volume.


It is nowhere that simple:

- I know of no coin-cell rechargeable battery over 3V in standard use

- the biggest in production that I know off seems to be Panasonic VL3032 - not small by any margin but the Appleseed is huge anyway :-d

- the max spec on that is 100 mAh - workable in theory

- HOWEVER the problem with that one is that the Continuous Standard Drain is 0.2mA at 3V (which is anyway by far the biggest in any coin-size rechargeable) - which provides about 3% of the 'juice' needed above - in other words you need 33 batteries like that to actually make things work :-d :-d :-d (and just for reference the MT920 used in EcoDrive is 5 mAh with drain at 0.04 mA * 1.5V);

- that exercise being done - I actually believe that the battery in Appleseed is something new that was never used before (or possibly a pair chemical+supercapacitor) - most unusual IMHO is the 0C-40C interval (the 'normal' stuff is -20C to +60C); the problem that IMHO still remains is the exponential 'crash' in performance near the max. drain for all the rechargeable batteries; also as a general idea - the number of recharge cycles that the battery can sustain before dying is crashing very quickly in most models once you discharge more than 5% or so;

- finally about that claim in the Appleseed manual - I really doubt that the expression implying that the watch can do such huge amount of GPS syncs in the dark is correct - not just for the drain problems above but also since the watch CAN NOT AUTOMATICALLY WORK AT ALL IN THE MODE IMPLIED IN THAT PARAGRAPH - the auto reception ("circumstantial reception" in the manual) can only work with the watch in sunlight :roll: (which IMHO is telling a huge lot about the 'power squeeze' under which the watch is operating - together with the constant references on how you should recharge the watch very often in direct sunlight). IMHO the 2.5 years is the amount of time the watch could work from full-charge in the dark - which is still impressive given that all the other solar models that go over 2 years in order to achieve that MUST go to power-save models in which all hands are stopped - something that I never saw mentioned for the Appleseed (and probably explained by the over 20x bigger rechargeable).


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## everose

Interesting info Catalin.

I assumed the watch needed to "see sky" in order to sync up with the satellites rather than because of power drain issues, but i could well be wrong !


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## Andrew McGregor

Catilin, I remember that bit in the Appleseed manual... so quite likely you're right about the reality.

However, I wouldn't be entirely sure that one day we won't see a watch that can do that, given the existence of this: Hyperion Catalog

That has a MUCH higher current capability than a watch could possibly need (about an amp), and since batteries get bigger and heavier as current capacity grows...


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## Catalin

Andrew McGregor said:


> Catilin, I remember that bit in the Appleseed manual... so quite likely you're right about the reality.
> 
> However, I wouldn't be entirely sure that one day we won't see a watch that can do that, given the existence of this: Hyperion Catalog
> 
> That has a MUCH higher current capability than a watch could possibly need (about an amp), and since batteries get bigger and heavier as current capacity grows...


Yes, those have better drain currents but in my own experience (I believe with something like gen2 LiPo) the recharging of those is FAR trickier (we rarely got 100 cycles without a very large drop in capacity) - and more relevant the self-discharge in some models was so big that is hard to believe it would still keep relevant power after 12 months let alone 30 months.


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## Catalin

everose said:


> Interesting info Catalin.
> 
> I assumed the watch needed to "see sky" in order to sync up with the satellites rather than because of power drain issues, but i could well be wrong !


Yes, that is also something that I believe helps a lot, there are also mentions on how it might work better with the watch not on your hand. Here is however the list of conditions for auto reception:

"When the following four conditions are met, the watch will start automatic reception:
• The watch is sufficiently charged and operating normally.
• The displayed time is between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m.
• The satellite time signal has not been received for more than 72 hours.
• The watch is outside, or sunlight has been shining on the dial continuously."


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## everose

One other thing i also noticed reading the Appleseed pdf (btw thanks for posting ronaldheld ) is that:

Quote; " The automatic correction feature of this watch is supported until 28/2/2100 " .......end quote.

So it seems to be the same as Astron GPS in this regard.
I also notice some of my RC pieces state a similar message within their manuals.......What is going on regarding this? Does this prove that this info is not transferred to the watch but is always held within the watch itself?


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## Andrew McGregor

Catalin said:


> Yes, those have better drain currents but in my own experience (I believe with something like gen2 LiPo) the recharging of those is FAR trickier (we rarely got 100 cycles without a very large drop in capacity) - and more relevant the self-discharge in some models was so big that is hard to believe it would still keep relevant power after 12 months let alone 30 months.


Yeah. They can be reliably charged; the main thing is not to deep-discharge them very often, so the protective circuitry in a watch would need to be really good. Most of that is cured in the latest formulations, and LiFePO4 chemistry is much better again. And all of those parameters can be tweaked, if a battery maker wants some other combination of properties.

I own a few of those, but they're used for micro-size model aircraft, and in that application they last a fair while so long as you don't over-discharge them.


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## Catalin

everose said:


> One other thing i also noticed reading the Appleseed pdf (btw thanks for posting ronaldheld ) is that:
> 
> Quote; " The automatic correction feature of this watch is supported until 28/2/2100 " .......end quote.
> 
> So it seems to be the same as Astron GPS in this regard.
> I also notice some of my RC pieces state a similar message within their manuals.......What is going on regarding this? Does this prove that this info is not transferred to the watch but is always held within the watch itself?


I believe the GPS signal does not have very much CALENDAR information in itself (unlike most of the radio-sync signals) - the easiest to use is a count of weeks in a 10-bit field about which I also remember that there was a very interesting point made regarding the rollover of that - see

GPS Week Number Rollover

The Appleseed seems to have a (manual-settable) field to adjust for that - the "week rollover number".

The bottom line is that calendar info is in the watch, and most perpetual calendars will need a manual correction on the transition February 28th - March 1st 2100 (2100, 2200, 2300 are not leap years, 2000 and 2400 are). On most such watches advancing the hour 24 hours ahead should fix the problem, however I am curios if a manual correction will be enough in the Appleseed!


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## ronalddheld

That assumes that working Appleseeds will exist in 2100.


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## Sabresoft

dicioccio said:


> As pointed out, I don't understand the perpetual calendar "up to feb 2100" feature. In fact the date is easily synchronised with the GPS...


My understanding from a little digging is that the issue relates to the RC signal which only transmits a two digit date (shades of Y2K all over again). So in theory when it is 2100 the RC signal says "00" and the watch has no way of knowing if the RC means 2000 or 2100, so it would set the date probably as Jan 1, 2000 instead of Jan 1, 2011. On date alone that should not be a problem until midnight Feb 28, 2011 when the watch wants to go to Feb 29 and GPS insists that it is Mar 1. Not sure how the algorithm in the watch would deal with that (2000 is a leap year, 2100 isn't).

The other problem that I see is the day of the week. Not sure if the GPS transmits that information or if the watch just calculates that from the date. January 1, 2000 was a Saturday. January 1, 2011 will be a Friday. By March 1 you'd be off by two days. That's why I believe many watches "terminate" on December 31, 2099.

Now out of curiosity I know that my non-AT Skyhawk shows a 4 digit date in setting mode, so I decided to play with it (I don't wear it too much so wasn't too worried about messing up my settings), and adjusted the year to 2099, then adjusted one more year and it went to 2000!, so really the 20XX is just for show, the calendar is only a 100 year calendar from 2000 to 2099. Just in case I was missing something in the setting mode for setting 2100, I also decided to set it to Dec 31, 2099, 11:59 PM and let it click over to the next day. The day of the week would give me a quick clue. It jumped from Thursday to Saturday, so it went back to 2000!

While I could see watch vendors/designers building in a calendar algorithm beyond 2099, as long as the atomic clock only transmits a two digit year I can see that there would be little point, unless the watch could have a century "preference setting" that the user could set in 2100 to make sure that the watch interpreted the atomic clock signal correctly.

Still this is all highly academic as I know I won't be there to experience it, and even on the off chance that I'd live that long I'd probably be so senile that I doubt that I could understand or even care about the issue. There's probably a very good chance that my grandson wouldn't even be around when that happens. Few watches sold today will probably still be around by then anyway, as many would be lost or damaged beyond repair from daily usage, and yet others will have failed electronically or the batteries will be shot and possibly not replaceable by then.

And by then our AT or ST watches will be ancient curiosities like mechanical watches are today (not saying I don't like them or ignoring the fact that new technologies are still being developed to make them more accurate and reliable), as our descendants if they still wear watches at all may be wearing wrist nuclear devices, or maybe by then we will have computer brain implants and will just know the exact time all the time.


----------



## akasnowmaaan

The thing that has me excited about this watch...is reading the manuals of the currently-available radio watches. None of them feel any easier than just readjusting my automatic mechanical every once in a while.

It seems the US daylight savings complexity means you still have a certain level of configuration and annoyance built in to every watch. Needing to leave it by an open window facing Colorado, some of them don't even work across multiple continents (looking at you, Junghans), many of these watches come with zillions of other features that I don't want, and the UI for making those changes is so weird I have to consult a manual every time something is different.

This one looks brilliant for the fact that all I have to do is get off a plane, hit a button, wait a minute or two and it's set to the new area and all the nonsense is taken care of for me.

Am I alone here?


----------



## artec

I have one RC watch and when daylight saving was introduced recently, it changed over to the new time some time between midnight and 7 am. My Citizen Chronomaster had to have its hour hand adjusted one hour forward, which I had taken care of before going to bed. Neither was very arduous. I've never traveled from one time zone to another with an RC watch, but wouldn't the first correction deliver daylight saving time if that were appropriate? And again, the independent hour-hand adjustment on the Chronomaster is dead easy. 
Maybe the watches with lots of features and complications are difficult to cope with when changing time zones or from daylight saving to CST or vice versa, I don't know. 
I know RC watches change from DSCT to CST but how would an SC watch know about daylight saving? Satellites don't care, do they?


----------



## akasnowmaaan

artec said:


> I know RC watches change from DSCT to CST but how would an SC watch know about daylight saving? Satellites don't care, do they?


If it's GPS, couldn't it figure it out from the location and the date?


----------



## Andrew McGregor

akasnowmaaan said:


> If it's GPS, couldn't it figure it out from the location and the date?


And knowledge of the daylight saving rules at that location. Which can be done... but I'd be worrying about updates, as daylight saving is at the whim of politicians, and sometimes changes with very little warning (I think the record for a time zone change is three weeks notice).


----------



## gaijin

All this great technology, and the watch still can't tell me the day of the week?

:-(


----------



## Catalin

Andrew McGregor said:


> And knowledge of the daylight saving rules at that location. Which can be done... but I'd be worrying about updates, as daylight saving is at the whim of politicians, and sometimes changes with very little warning (I think the record for a time zone change is three weeks notice).


The other thing that I find interesting but I would like to hear more details would be the GPS accuracy - of course that with a lock on 3-4 satellites and good processing power the position can be determined down to 100-10m, but does the watch have all those features inside (plus the power to run all those)? Since in order to know in which timezone the watch is you clearly need to know the position with decent precision!


----------



## Sabresoft

Andrew McGregor said:


> And knowledge of the daylight saving rules at that location. Which can be done... but I'd be worrying about updates, as daylight saving is at the whim of politicians, and sometimes changes with very little warning (I think the record for a time zone change is three weeks notice).


I think that built-in DST is a great feature, but also requires manual override capabilities for those jurisdictions that just have to be different.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Sabresoft said:


> I think that built-in DST is a great feature, but also requires manual override capabilities for those jurisdictions that just have to be different.


Spare a thought for the poor devils that live close to a time zone border. 
This watch will drive them nuts.
The conversion of their location to the correct time zone is very tricky. 
A few million locations in its database won't be enough.

I am sure it has an override function in the watch that allows manual setting.


----------



## Andrew McGregor

Sabresoft said:


> I think that built-in DST is a great feature, but also requires manual override capabilities for those jurisdictions that just have to be different.


And those users who just have to do something odd.


----------



## Eeeb

everose said:


> Seiko claim that Astron GPS can even sync whilst you are moving.
> If it really can sync so consistently and so effortlessly, then i for one do not see the need for TC.(I know this may not be a popular view around here!)
> The argument for TC'ing is diminished over conventional RC imho as a sync should be possible just about anywhere there is sky.
> We will soon find out !...


My GPS phone needs clear sky to synch. My RC watch needs clear ionosphere to synch at night. My TC watches need manual synch every couple of months (or during DST changeovers) (I hate being more than a second or so off...). The only one I can control is my TC watches... The others might or might not be accurate. That drives me nuts, personally. OCD is a pain


----------



## dicioccio

Eeeb, that's a very interesting approach. Seeing things from this perspective makes a lot of sense !


----------



## ronalddheld

Without being so philosophic, is anyone here going to buy the watch?


----------



## petew

I'm toying with the idea. It'll be awhile before it's released though. I don't think they'll be available until the fall.


----------



## everose

ronalddheld said:


> Without being so philosophic, is anyone here going to buy the watch?


Probably....But first I still want to see the full spec and read a review or two by non FB's.

Sir petew will have a growing GPS collection already!!! :-d


----------



## Catalin

petew said:


> I'm toying with the idea. It'll be awhile before it's released though. I don't think they'll be available until the fall.


I can't wait for your review side-by-side with the Appleseed :-!


----------



## webvan

Someone playing with the Seiko Astron GPS here SEIKO WATCH ASTRON SOLAR GPS SAST003 - not sure what they're doing exactly though!


----------



## everose

webvan said:


> Someone playing with the Seiko Astron GPS here SEIKO WATCH ASTRON SOLAR GPS SAST003 - not sure what they're doing exactly though!


Here is the blog article where i believe that video came from.

Âçºå ¿´ºØ¶¶ ¤ä¤ÖÆâ»þ·×ÊÞ¡¡ ¥»¥¤¥³¡¼ ¥½¡¼¥é¡¼GPS¥¦¥ª¥Ã¥Á ¥¢¥¹¥È¥í¥ó SEIKO SOLAR GPS WATCH ASTRON

Its not very clear but the translation would seem to state that a sync was being performed/demonstrated and batt status check etc.

There are also some photos of actual pieces and wrist shots. I do not see any new info re the operation/spec that we did not already know from previous press releases though.


----------



## ronalddheld

Sorry to bump an old thread, but has anyone seen the manual and when is this watch available?


----------



## petew

The manual has not been released yet nor has a firm release date been stated.


----------



## ronalddheld

Thanks. How is your Appleseed performing?


----------



## petew

The Appleseed is performing just as designed. I actually had it on two days ago. I've got two other GPS watches...a Garmin and a Suunto and I experienced an interesting thing recently with the Suunto. That watch actually can receive firmware updates via the internet and after a recent update, I noticed that GPS fix time decreased dramatically. Getting a signal outside my front door (lots of trees in the area) went from about 2 minutes of standing around to about 30 seconds. Makes me wonder what can be done in the programming to allow a faster fix to occur. Anyone have any ideas?

It's unfortunate that the Astron won't allow firmware updates. That would allow auto DST correction as well as updates to timezone geography as it changes throughout the world. These are two factors that sort of stop the Astron from really being as automated and travel friendly as the marketing is leading us to believe


----------



## ronalddheld

Could the appleseed and gps astron be sent back for firmware upgrades?
Which Suunto is it?


----------



## petew

ronalddheld said:


> Could the appleseed and gps astron be sent back for firmware upgrades?
> Which Suunto is it?


I'd be absolutely shocked if Seiko or Citizen provided programming updates for these watches. The Suunto is the Ambit model. Not a watch for HAQ folks, but it's a great athletic training tool. Believe it or not, even though it is a GPS device, the time is not updated via GPS but through the compter interface used when uploading activity results.


----------



## ronalddheld

NO Ambit for me.
I meant updates done at the factories.
I wonder, ignoring the cost, which watch of the two would be worth having?


----------



## Catalin

petew said:


> The Appleseed is performing just as designed. I actually had it on two days ago. I've got two other GPS watches...a Garmin and a Suunto and I experienced an interesting thing recently with the Suunto. That watch actually can receive firmware updates via the internet and after a recent update, I noticed that GPS fix time decreased dramatically. Getting a signal outside my front door (lots of trees in the area) went from about 2 minutes of standing around to about 30 seconds. Makes me wonder what can be done in the programming to allow a faster fix to occur. Anyone have any ideas?
> ...


Most modern chips have like 3 "starting modes" - sometimes called cold, warm and hot - the hot start usually can be done if the chip was only powered-off under a number of hours (like 4 hours ago max) - in that mode the GPS-lock is the fastest. Also for timing purposes some chips have a mode in which information from a much smaller number of satellites is used - in theory even on a single satellite you could get timing accuracy of under 1 second - so if they enabled such a mode in their firmware the difference could be visible.


----------



## Tom2517

Andrew McGregor said:


> I'd say it's a certainty that the GPS chipset was made by someone else. Garmin don't OEM their chips, so it won't be a Garmin. But, Trimble, SiRF, SkyTraq, Maxim, and who knows how many others do OEM GPS receivers. The low power part is clearly achieved by keeping the GPS turned off as much as possible.


The GPS module is co-developed with Epson, but they are pretty much the same company.

I know this because Seiko just did a pre-launch party in Taiwan and that is the info. they provided.

Basically the three biggest obstacle in designing the Astron was:

1. Miniaturize GPS module and reduce the power requirement (the biggest obstacle)
2. Provide stable power when the GPS module is functioning
3. Antenna design


----------



## ronalddheld

is there a link to any of this information?


----------



## artec

Interesting.....thank you to Tom2517. I hope they keep working on the miniaturizing! It seems that the Garmin efforts in that direction were more effective because their GPS watches are a good bit smaller than the Astron.


----------



## Tom2517

ronalddheld said:


> is there a link to any of this information?


In Chinese though. Also Seiko supposedly thought about developing it 10 years ago, but the project only really kicked off in 2006.

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=376&t=2935576&last=38474290


----------



## Tom2517

artec said:


> Interesting.....thank you to Tom2517. I hope they keep working on the miniaturizing! It seems that the Garmin efforts in that direction were more effective because their GPS watches are a good bit smaller than the Astron.


But the garmins are not solar powered are they? It may have something to do with it.....I am guessing.


----------



## Joey.M

Here look at this link.. I just found it.

ROOK JAPAN - Seiko, Astron, Solar GPS


----------



## petew

I would suspect that the Garmins are smaller because they are not self charged and essentially designed for short life cycles between charges so they don't need a large battery like the Astron and Citizen models do.


----------



## artec

Don't you think there would be room for an enormous battery, especially a light recharged one, in the difference in size between the Astron and the Garmins? Granted that the Garmns have no light cells and the batteries they have only have to last for two or three hours.

Looking at the size of eco-drive rc watches like my Citizen CB3000 51E and my eco-drive AQ1020-51E The Citizen, it seems clear that the light cell, charging system and rechargeable batteries are not all that big, so the Astron's girth doesn't appear to be due to the fact that it's light-powered. Nor to the Antenna, since the Garmins need that, too. I realize that we can only speculate, but I don't know enough about electronics to speculate intelligently!


----------



## petew

You can't compare the battery requirements of a standard RC quartz vs. a GPS device. The GPS uses significantly more power than an RC watch. Even the Citizen literature for the Satellite Wave makes reference to a special high capacity cell which is used in the device. Remember, the battery in a typical RC watch can charge in a few to maybe 30 hours of direct sunlight. The battery in the Satellite wave takes 150 hours of direct sunlight to charge completely. That battery is in a different class than what is used in your typical RC watch.


----------



## Tom2517

Personally I think the wave is more unique, but no doubt the Astron is higher tech, although looks like many other Seikos (just bigger).

Then again, some people thinks the Wave looks like a toy watch....


----------



## slooowr6

Tom2517 said:


> In Chinese though. Also Seiko supposedly thought about developing it 10 years ago, but the project only really kicked off in 2006.
> 
> [


A lot of good information from the video in the link. A 6 second press on the button at 2 o'clock will trigger GPS reception, the second hand will indicate how many satellite signal it received, it needs at least 4 satellites to locate itself (time zone) and just 1 to correct time, and it can received up to 11 satellite signals. It's not clear from the link is that if it have the ability to patriotically sync time by itself. Found the info on auto sync, the watch will sync once per day.


----------



## webvan

Can't see a video there, do you have direct link? Thanks!


----------



## Tom2517

Scroll down for some closeups of the Astron.

http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=376&t=2950014#38576616


----------



## slooowr6

webvan said:


> Can't see a video there, do you have direct link? Thanks!


See if this works, SEIKO ASTRON GPS


----------



## webvan

Thanks, got to watch the video but I mudt admit that I couldn't make head or tails of that little dance of the hands!


----------



## slooowr6

webvan said:


> Thanks, got to watch the video but I mudt admit that I couldn't make head or tails of that little dance of the hands!


LOL, it can be confusing. The button at 2 o'clock is the manual GPS reception button. A short 3 second press will trigger time correction by using just 1 satellite, the dial on 10 o'clock will point to "1" indicate just looking for 1 satellite. A long 6 second press will trigger time zone check which will need at least 4 satellites, the dial on 10 o'clock will point to "4" indicate it's looking for at least 4 satellites. After 6 second press, the second hand becomes satellites reception indicator, it'll show how many satellite signals it is receiving. In the video it move back and forth between 6 and 7 satellites, the process can take up to 30 sec. At the end of this process, the second hand will point to "Y" or "N" on the chapter ring to indicate if the process is successful or not.


----------



## webvan

Thanks that's very helpful, did you figure out what the other buttons do? It seems the one at 4 could be a manual adjustment of sorts?

7 satellites, that's impressive, too bad there's no way to display the Lat/Long!


----------



## slooowr6

webvan said:


> Thanks that's very helpful, did you figure out what the other buttons do? It seems the one at 4 could be a manual adjustment of sorts?
> 
> 7 satellites, that's impressive, too bad there's no way to display the Lat/Long!


Check out this picture. The buttons are labeled as A, B and C. The phrase in yellow is the function of the button.
A: DST on/off, cancel
B: Local time GPS reception (3 sec, 1 satellite), Global time GPS reception (6 sec, 4+ satellites), reception status, flight mode.
C: Time zone check, world time adjust.


----------



## artec

Nor could I.... nor did what the girl did with the buttons appear to make any sense. The instruction manual must be as big as the New York phone book. I've got an Astron on order and I'm now looking forward to its arrival with considerable trepidation!
Maybe it'll all make more sense in the metal.


----------



## webvan

Ok, can't say it's going to put me on the right track ;-)

One thing I think the full synch does is show the TZ before it starts ticking again.


----------



## slooowr6

webvan said:


> Ok, can't say it's going to put me on the right track ;-)
> 
> One thing I think the full synch does is show the TZ before it starts ticking again.


 after full sync the second hand points to "Y" or "N" to show if the sync is successful. Press button c will show you current time zone, a long press on C will let you display time of other time zone by pressing B or C. A will act as "Cancel" button in this setup. ;-) Just to confuse you more.


----------



## webvan

Ah yes, I thought the Y/N was on the dial at 10 but they're on the bezel.

We're getting there! I suppose A does more than just cancel the TZ actions?


----------



## slooowr6

webvan said:


> Ah yes, I thought the Y/N was on the dial at 10 but they're on the bezel.
> 
> We're getting there! I suppose A does more than just cancel the TZ actions?


Yes, setting DST on/off, press A within 5 sec press C for 3 sec. Check DST on/off status.


----------



## ronalddheld

We really need to see an online manual. Any chance of that occuring, since I would not ask artec to scan and upload his copy.


----------



## webvan

Thanks, so A won't be getting a lot of action, do you how the Plane (no sync I suppose) mode gets activated? We also have E/F, for Empty/Full?


----------



## petew

Seiko is pretty good about putting their manuals online. Once the Astron is released, I'm betting it will become available.


----------



## ronalddheld

We could see the manual online around October 26th?


----------



## Tom2517

According to the Taiwanese website, Seiko will release Astron within a couple of weeks in Taiwan, maybe I will go check them out at the flagship store in Taipei since it's there for demo now.


----------



## artec

If I had a scanner, I'd be perfectly willing to get the manual scanned and put on line, but I think Pete is probably right and Seiko will enable us to download it once the watch is released.
Somewhere there's youtube of the watch being adjusted and corrected with a Chinese (or maybe Japanese???) voice-over and legend. This could be translated by Google. The watch is to be released on September 27th in Japan and I believe here, too, so the instructions should be available within days of that, I'm sure.


----------



## artec

I think September 28th.


----------



## Tom2517

Yep, online manual is coming soon.


----------



## ronalddheld

Tom, what is the link to that page/


----------



## Stargazer1

Seiko posted the picture on their Facebook page but did not give a link to the manual, yet.


----------



## Tom2517

Hi Ronald, there wasn't any link, Seiko Japan was just showing the picture on their Astron page saying there will be online manuals available late Sept.


----------



## ronalddheld

I suppose we just have to wait a week or so...


----------



## petew

Here's the manual:

http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/resource/pdf/manual/7X52_inst_English.pdf


----------



## Tom2517

Astron is officially on sale in Taiwan now, so should be out in other countries as well.


----------



## webvan

Good to hear and thanks for the link to the manual. Hope they put a good quality quartz in there unlike what Casio does with its RC watches...not the same price point of course.


----------



## Tom2517

Yep, out worldwide.


----------



## gaijin

webvan said:


> Good to hear and thanks for the link to the manual. Hope they put a good quality quartz in there unlike what Casio does with its RC watches...not the same price point of course.


Looking at the specifications, the quartz movement looks like a plain Jane unit:

2. Frequency of crystal oscillator&#8230; &#8230; 32,768 Hz (Hz = Hertz ... Cycles per second)

3. Loss/gain (monthly rate)&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; Loss / gain ±15 seconds on a monthly rate (Except the
case when the watch is used without an automatic time
setting by receiving GPS signal and when it is worn on
the wrist within a normal temperature range between
5°C and 35°C ).

HTH


----------



## webvan

Right no HF or TC of course but there are different qualities of 32Khz QCO's, case in point the superlative SD accuracy (+1 spm at room temp for mine and +3 spm when worn) vs the crappy Casio RC watch accuracy (+1 spd). Given the price point it would make sense for Seiko to have used the same quality as on their SD line.


----------



## ronalddheld

Are there any RC watches in current production that have a notable movement in terms of accuracy without updates?


----------



## dicioccio

ronalddheld said:


> Are there any RC watches in current production that have a notable movement in terms of accuracy without updates?


Ronald, probably there are RC watches with different performances in terms of accuracy. Anyway it seems that all the manufacturers claim the same accuracy with no signal reception, that is +/- 15 spm, the same accuracy of a standard quartz. Therefore, unless we complete an extensive test disabling the signal reception, I think it will be hard to answer to such a question


----------



## ronalddheld

Too bad nothing stands out in specs.
Awaiting an English manual for this watch...


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Too bad nothing stands out in specs.
> Awaiting an English manual for this watch...


Posted 14 hours ago ...




petew said:


> Here's the manual:
> 
> http://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/resource/pdf/manual/7X52_inst_English.pdf


;-)


----------



## chris01

dicioccio said:


> Ronald, probably there are RC watches with different performances in terms of accuracy. Anyway it seems that all the manufacturers claim the same accuracy with no signal reception, that is +/- 15 spm, the same accuracy of a standard quartz. Therefore, unless we complete an extensive test disabling the signal reception, I think it will be hard to answer to such a question


A single data point only, but for what it's worth - my Oceanus (Casio 5012 movement) runs at +44 spy with RC turned off. Rather better than my little Seiko digital RC alarm clock that does +220 spy. With normal RC operation both are stable to +/- 0.1 sec each day.


----------



## webvan

That's pretty good for the Oceanus, is that with 12 hours wearting pattern? I remember some members here had a Seiko Brightz RC and you'd expect these to be pretty decent to.


----------



## chris01

webvan said:


> That's pretty good for the Oceanus, is that with 12 hours wearting pattern? I remember some members here had a Seiko Brightz RC and you'd expect these to be pretty decent to.


Not a very controlled experiment, I'm afraid. I just turned off the RC and wore the watch for random periods for about 10 days - long enough to measure a reasonably consistent rate. A daily rate of +0.10s to +0.15s very soon swamps the measurement errors.


----------



## everose

I have 3 RC G-Shocks and 2 RC ProTreks and all are *way* inside their specs of 15spm when RC is turned off. I have read other posters speculate that RC Casios have inferior (accuracy) mvts compared to non-RC models. I have found no evidence to support this theory in my limited experience.

Re the Astron GPS manual. (Thanks for posting Pete !)
The only thing which really stood out to me was the (potentially) very lengthy leap sec update time. It would seem to be a relatively large drain for such a seemingly simple update.:think:

I guess DST being manual is a much more flexible option as it seems DST's are played around with by officials much more than actual time zones.

Imho Astrons success will boil down to how quickly and easily it can sync. I really don't think its size will be a major issue for the techno-crowd, upon which its initial success depends.

I am eagerly awaiting some reviews by the early adopters around here ! :-d


----------



## ronalddheld

Petew, thanks for the manual. I am concerned about not being able to update the firmwear and reading not easy to see tiny indicators. An extra 2K dollars could not hurt.


----------



## Hans Moleman

everose said:


> The only thing which really stood out to me was the (potentially) very lengthy leap sec update time. It would seem to be a relatively large drain for such a seemingly simple update.:think:


Its just that the satellites don't send that information frequently.

No daylight saving correction is annoying though. But understandable.


----------



## ronalddheld

I just finished reading the guide. I am concerned about easily maintaning sufficient charge and good enough to set time and other data.


----------



## petew

One thing that reading the manual confirmed with me. For those that think that they will be able to step off a plane and have a sync, you will probably be disappointed. The sync to read the time and apply location info involves multiple satellites and can take a long time. Getting that sync in the airport is not probable. So you can either stand outside the airport...if you can find a spot that's relatively open...for a minute or many more waiting for you magical sync, or you can simply say..."I don't have time for this" and manually change your time zone yourself with a couple of button pushes and be done with it. I'll mostly be doing the latter as I tend to get on the timezone I'm travelling to while on the plane anyway.

Neat watch though and I'm looking forward to getting mine and testing it vs. some other GPS watches.


----------



## dwjquest

ronalddheld said:


> Are there any RC watches in current production that have a notable movement in terms of accuracy without updates?


I have two Oceanus RC watches. One is running at a consistent -7 spy and the other at -3 spy (both at a constant 86 F). Of course, both show the typical rate versus temperature curve you would expect from an non TC quartz movement.


----------



## Sabresoft

So now available globally, except Canada! OdesseyTime the Canadian distributor for Seiko looks to have no interest in the Astron. At least as far as can be gleaned from their website (last updated in 2011). 

Seiko has just about disappeared from the Canadian market, with most dealers being small, pathetic excuses for stores. I went into one asking about spring drives only to be told that as it was September I'd have to check back in April! Pathetic. 

Still there are a couple of descent stores in the area that carry Seiko, so I will check with them and see if they will be getting the Astron. If not, thank God for the Internet.


----------



## Tom2517

Someone here should get one!


----------



## artec

There are at least two on their way to new owners who are both here. Mine is going to have a chance to demonstrate its prowess at changing time-zones and correcting its time during the next couple of weeks. It'll be interesting to compare the more complicated maneuvering with just adjusting the hour-hand on my Chronomaster! Having now read the Astron's instructions, but without the watch itself, the whole thing is beginning to look rather demanding. Still, one can't tell till one tries it.


----------



## dicioccio

I wish you, artec, a wonderful "experience" with your new toy. Please, write us a review as soon as you'll have a complete set of informations. And don't forget to add your perfect close shots. Each time I've read your reviews, it seemed like the watch was just in my hands !


----------



## ronalddheld

I am looking forward to a comprehensive review. My concern is that the automatic functions will not work well in the field.


----------



## artec

Thank you for the kind words and good wishes, Ale, but unfortunately I shall be going abroad almost immediately the watch arrives, so I shan't be able to spend much time doing a review and taking photos. I'll try and do a "quick and dirty" first impressions sort of review of it, and I expect there will be at least one new owner who will do a proper review before I get back, towards the end of October. However, I shall be changing time-zones several times while I'm away, so I shall get a pretty good idea of how the controls work. 

I have a mental picture of myself standing in the parking lot of an airport in Germany with the instruction book in one hand and the watch in the other, trying to persuade it to adopt its new (temporary) home. Perhaps it won't be raining!


----------



## Sabresoft

Went to an AD yesterday and saw a placard advertising the Astron. It still doesn't show on the Seiko Canada website. Talked to the manager and he indicated that they will only order on demand. His experience has been that $1000 plus Seikos are a hard sell to anybody but those in the know about the high end product. 

Unfortunate because it would be nice to look at and touch something like this before committing to purchase, but I understand his perspective with not getting stuck with high value inventory for long periods of time on the off-chance a WIS wanders in. He said that he has several Ananta spring drives that have been unsold for a very long time. It's a sad reality that many non-WIS perceive that only the Swiss can make high end watches.


----------



## mycroft

*COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*





































*Quick impressions:*

*Design*: I like the Citizen design better - it looks cooler - looks like a floating pebble (design inspired by a rendition of Atlantis); Seiko probably designed by engineers - functional, conservative but uninspired artistically
Citizen gives more concessions for design over function - the green coils in the periphery of the bezel is a useless design artifice
*Display*: Citizen displays date, day, month; Seiko only shows date
Seiko has very bright Lumibrite indicators and less bright luminous minute and hour indicators; Citizen has phlegm/pus-coloured green indicators which are not luminous at all - how stupid is that!
Citizen only shows 1 timezone. Seiko has 2
Seiko has potentially confusing sub-indicators at 10 o'clock; Citizen has a cleaner dial (even with more date functions)
*Function *- *GPS fix*: Seiko GPS sync is very fast (10sec 1st sync time) even in full cloud cover; Citizen has a 90% sync failure rate at the same spot - forget about syncing in less than full sun or under dense cloud cover
*DST setting*: Seiko DST can be turned on and off
*Leap second*: Seiko will take into account leap second adjustments
Functionally, the Seiko is more advanced - able to sync via GPS fix both time signals (1 satellite needed only) and time zone via GPS location fix (the world is divided into 1 million segments and assigned time zones) with 4 or more satellites. Citizen only syncs time on those occasions when sync is successful (large minority of attempts)
It appears that either the Seiko GPS chipset or GPS antenna (embedded in bezel like the Citizen's) or combination of both is clearly superior in deliverable functionality that is beyond what Citizen can, beyond its pretty face.
*Size-wise*, both are 47mm diameter but Seiko is 16.5mm thick and Citizen is 20mm (if I remember correctly) - evident in the side view pictures
*Materials*: Seiko comes in High intensity Ti (whatever that means!!) with ceramic bezel and Citizen comes in Ceramic bezel and lugs but has a coated Stainless steel midsection for the case.
Pushers are smaller and more discreet in the Seiko and very ornately stylised in the citizen
Citizen does not have a bracelet option. Ultimately the strap will crack and break up. Seiko has a Ti bracelet
Both have solid case backs
*Sapphire Crystal*: Citizen is domed and beautiful; Seiko is flat
*Anti-reflective Coating*: Citizen - none, hence domed crystal is full of reflections and also difficult to photograph well; Seiko has the best anti-reflective coating that I have ever seen on a watch (previous best was Sinn U1) - it is clear, colorless and really looks like there is no crystal over the watch face at all (except for some extreme angles). Few if any coatings are truely colorless, most have a bluish green tinge to it.
*Water-resistance*: Citizen - 30m; Seiko - 100m, with a screw down crown (pushers have no screw down protection)
*Power reserve*: Citizen quotes 2.5yrs; Seiko quotes 6 months running and 2 yrs with power-save 2 option activated immediately after full charge
Both are complicated watches to set and few will be able to fully remember all the steps and trouble shooting settings required beyond simple adjustments. I don't think that either one is clearly simpler in this area

I shall update further as differences cross my mind.

I'm sure others will augment as well when they get their timepieces.


----------



## webvan

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

Great comparison, thanks ! Looks like the Citizen needs some work on the GPS reception side...a bit of a problem for a GPS based watch! Only one TZ on the Citizen but there is a counter on the right, what does it show?

I know that's been hinted at in previous posts but cloud cover really doesn't have an impact on GPS reception, I think this may have come up in the discussion because these are solar watches and that a sync is going to use up a lot of power. What does have a bad impact is blockage by trees/treecover or worse, by buildings.

I notice the watches are not in sync ;-) I was actually wondering if anyone had compared the time shown by the watches after a successful sync with a site like The official U.S. time - clock (or the Abouttime/EarthSunX combo) - any small differences ? Reason I'm asking is that my RC Casio is sometimes a second off from the official time after a sync.


----------



## Joey.M

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

I saw these Seiko Astron on sale on eBay
seiko astron | eBay

and

Rook Japan
ROOK JAPAN - Solar GPS

Is there anywhere else?


----------



## mycroft

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*



webvan said:


> Great comparison, thanks ! Looks like the Citizen needs some work on the GPS reception side...a bit of a problem for a GPS based watch! Only one TZ on the Citizen but there is a counter on the right, what does it show?
> 
> I know that's been hinted at in previous posts but cloud cover really doesn't have an impact on GPS reception, I think this may have come up in the discussion because these are solar watches and that a sync is going to use up a lot of power. What does have a bad impact is blockage by trees/treecover or worse, by buildings.
> 
> I notice the watches are not in sync ;-) I was actually wondering if anyone had compared the time shown by the watches after a successful sync with a site like The official U.S. time - clock (or the Abouttime/EarthSunX combo) - any small differences ? Reason I'm asking is that my RC Casio is sometimes a second off from the official time after a sync.


Webvan, you are very astute in your observations. A few attempted answers, if I may:


Citizen counter on the right shows a 24hr indicator for the local time. I don't remember being able to change this independently of the indicated time.
GPS cover - here in Singapore, I find that low and dense cloud cover and heavy rain interferes with GPS signals as much as trees and tall buildings. Admittedly this experience is drawn from my Garmin Nuvi units, which arguably should be even better at getting GPS fixes as they are not limited by current draw limitations etc. Just my observation.
The Seiko was sync'd prior to the photo, the Citizen had not been sync'd for sometime, since I gave up doing it regularly after all the failures. Certainly, no _automatic _sync for the Citizen had ever been successful in my case. All the attempts were via manual syncs.

Hope this serves to clarify.

Incidentally, mine was the second all black Ti Bracelet Astron sold in Singapore and the 1st after its launch. The AD received 5 pieces of the xxx007 model (Ti with black hardcoat) in total for the island. The other models - limited ed, Stainless steel models were also in stock, but I don't know the numbers. She said that production numbers are relatively low for the Astron and that there might be another shipment till next yr. But that is just conjecture.

I put the limited ed next to mine and IMHO, the non-limited black has better legibility as the stark white indices contrast better than the gold on the Ltd ed and the subdials have a more subdued gray-black, further making the dial less busy looking. And of course, the Ti case/bracelet is a more comfortable lower hypoallergenic wear experience.

Cheers!


----------



## petew

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

I just took the Appleseed and Astron out for a time sync. Semi sunny day, unobstructed view. Astron synced on the first try in 11 seconds. The Citizen took 3 tries. After the sync, the second hands on both watches matches.


----------



## artec

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

I haven't seen any advertised anywhere else but I got mine from a Seiko dealer in Japan and he said he only received one of each model. The prices in the ads you linked were clearly retail, with no discount.

I haven't got an Appleseed so I have no experience with them but so far, my Astron has synchronized perfectly, first time, every time. The attached photo gives an idea of the size of the beast and I hope you find it find it amusing, too!


----------



## mycroft

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*



petew said:


> I just took the Appleseed and Astron out for a time sync. Semi sunny day, unobstructed view. Astron synced on the first try in 11 seconds. The Citizen took 3 tries. After the sync, the second hands on both watches matches.


Petew, I bought my Appleseed largely in part due to your excellent review(s). Though I am a little disappointed with its shortcomings, I cant say that I regret the purchase.

It still is a ..... to sync and therein lies its failure in its primary function!

Cheers!


----------



## webvan

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

Thanks for the additional info guys. Artec, had you asked the nice people at AZ Fine Time for a quote before ordering from Japan? They're good with discounts and there's no risk of getting hit with a massive import tax...


----------



## petew

*Re: COMPARISONS: Seiko Astron Solar GPS vs Citizen Satellite Wave*

I've never understood the best way to get the Appleseed to sync. Sometimes it'll sync quickly on the first try, other times, it can take a few attempts. No question, the Astron is technologically more advanced than the Citizen, but for me, the Citizen is far more fun to wear.


----------



## Tom2517

I have the citizen, while I agree the reception takes several tries, it does work in rain or cloudy cover. 

The problem with the citizen is you have to really hold it away from you, which makes you look funny.


----------



## Stargazer1

They have released the Seiko Astron app in the iTunes Store:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/seiko-astron/id569416749?mt=8

No android version available for now.


----------



## webvan

Thanks for the link, neat app. It doesn't seem to synch the time to atomic time like Emerald time though.


----------



## ronalddheld

It would be useful if it synced to servers to the ms level.


----------



## ronalddheld

I have just joined the club. I walked out of my apartment, and before I could walk to a clear spot, the GPS turned itself on for a time sync. That was quick, although the watch was set to factory time and date. At the clear spot I hit the b button for 6 seconds. I was getting up to 6 satellites and the GPS synch took under a minute.


----------



## Stargazer1

Very cool, congrats. I think it is a very nice looking watch!

As for the app, I think it's primary purpose is to show people how the GPS function works in case people don't want to read the owner's manual. It makes it more simple to see and understand.


----------



## Derek N

Thank you Stargazer1 for the app suggestion. I just downloaded it to my iPhone and played around with it. Don't have the watch yet, but am now comfortable in being able to navigate through the watches' features. This is definitely my next watch purchase for sure!


----------



## webvan

Good question but it's been discussed before, do a search in the thread from the menu at the top.


----------



## ronalddheld

I did a synch last Friday and kept the watch indoors. I checked against my Clocksync program on my phone, and the Seiko was about 1 second fast.


----------



## webvan

That's not very good...Did you mean Emerald Time ? Were they perfectly in synch after the GPS synch?


----------



## ronalddheld

I am on Android so I use Clocksync. I can check when I sync up tomorrow. 
I may be able to repeat it for a shorter interval.


----------



## ronalddheld

It did a sync as soon as it was outside in sunlight. There was no difference with clocksync visually. I will try to sync on Monday and see if there is a difference.


----------



## webvan

Thanks for the update, let's hope they did put a decently aged and hand-picked quartz crystal in there, 1 second in 4/5 days is not very satisfactory for HAQ fans.


----------



## ronalddheld

Back from traveling. For the TZ change, it took about over a minute. The time syncs around 15 seconds. If I go out at the same time each day, when sunlight hits the dail for a few seconds, the time synch would start.


----------



## ronalddheld

Not certain how much interest there is, but I will start a longer test without a sync in a few weeks and will report back with results.


----------



## slooowr6

ronalddheld said:


> Not certain how much interest there is, but I will start a longer test without a sync in a few weeks and will report back with results.


Please report back once you have the result. I'm very interested to see how does it do without sync.


----------



## webvan

Me too yes, your first test was not very promising so that's a concern.


----------



## ronalddheld

How about a month unworn and a few hours/day under a flourescent lamp?


----------



## ronalddheld

For owners of this watch, leap seconds are being updated, so normal time syncs take much longer.


----------



## artec

Ronald, there was a leap second added at midnight on June 30th, 2012. I don't believe there has been another since then....in fact, it's my understanding that they are always added or subtracted on June 30 or December 31, though they can, in theory. be added on other days.


----------



## ronalddheld

The GPS system updates its leap second tables around June 1st and December 1st to prepare for actual leap seconds. Page 30 of the manual explains it with graphics.


----------



## ronalddheld

My update took about 10 minutes. Did a time only sync and it worked normally. I will keep the watch inside for a month or more, and check the offset.


----------



## jayceetee

Hi, everyone. I'm a newbie and I've been browsing the Astron GPS threads. I'm considering buying one, SAST007 or SAST001.
I would be grateful if you can point me to some ADs. What kind of discount can I expect?
Thanks in advance 😊


----------



## heb

Hello,
Although a great idea on paper; too impractical in reality, unless you are stranded on a raft with 24 hour access to the outside sky.

Go figure.

heb


----------



## jayceetee

Point taken, Heb but I just love the Astron's overall design and technology.


----------



## ronalddheld

There are useful posts here and on the Seiko/Citizen forum. You can try Arizona Fine Time snd talk to Joe K.


----------



## jayceetee

Thank you, ronalddheld.


----------



## t_mano

Hi Ronalddhead, Recently purchased the SAST007 and trying to phanthom out the automatic sync of the watch. In UK not too much sunlight and trying to witness/catch when the auto sync happens. Tried performing a full manual sync at midday, successful and then if I walk out 24hours later, I was expecting the auto sync to kick in. It does sync sometime during the day, like to know when it does perform it. Any idea on this.
t_mano


----------



## ronalddheld

Before the update, I found that if 24 hours had elapsed and the watch entered strong sunlight while going outside, the time only sync would start.


----------



## t_mano

ronalddheld said:


> Before the update, I found that if 24 hours had elapsed and the watch entered strong sunlight while going outside, the time only sync would start.


Thanks, I'll try that, hide the watch in darkness for 24Hour plus, weekend task.


----------



## t_mano

Well, so far the sync to GPS happens when it sees sufficient day light instead of full sun light. Trained a web cam with a 1frame/sec capture... (sad i know)
On Friday - kept the watch under cover and when exposed at 14:40, it synced immediately. (then put on camera)
Saturday - 09:11 am soon Sunny Day, soon as the sun hit the face, it sync'd.
Sunday - 08:53 am - gloomy start, must have been bright enough, it sync'd.

I'll keep the camera on for another 3 days, its not quite every 24hours or more...!


----------



## webvan

I finally got a chance to see all the GPS models at the Seiko Center in Paris this week and tried on the titanium version...well I must say I didn't like it, on my 7.25" wrist it's positively huge, both in terms of width and height. I'm a huge "gadget" fan but frankly I have a hard time "getting" that watch, my ETA TC watches are accurate enough at +/- 4spy and a lot more wearable too. Satellite sync is really a "glorified" RC sync and most of us agree here that this is not HAQ territory. Add to this the fact that Ronald's watch seems to gain 1s/5days then it shows Seiko didn't even bother to pick a nice quartz like they did for their Springdrive watches...


----------



## ronalddheld

Not certain my watch is typical, but I will report on the offsets every 2 weeks or a month. Only three of us bought this watch?


----------



## artec

I bought one but sold it already.....much too big for me and inconveniently thick. I'm a gadget hound, too, but in this case I guess it was mostly curiosity. Back to Chronomaster.


----------



## heb

Hello t,
I love your post; that of a true scientist. Nice job.

heb



t_mano said:


> Well, so far the sync to GPS happens when it sees sufficient day light instead of full sun light. Trained a web cam with a 1frame/sec capture... (sad i know)
> On Friday - kept the watch under cover and when exposed at 14:40, it synced immediately. (then put on camera)
> Saturday - 09:11 am soon Sunny Day, soon as the sun hit the face, it sync'd.
> Sunday - 08:53 am - gloomy start, must have been bright enough, it sync'd.
> 
> I'll keep the camera on for another 3 days, its not quite every 24hours or more...!


----------



## t_mano

heb, folks,
Carried on into the weekdays
Monday - 08:39
Tuesday - 08:47
Wednesday - Covered Watch with Thick Black Tshirt, Did Not Sync or attempt as soon as I shone a LED light at the watch surface around about 19:00 it tried away from a clear signal sight.
Thursday - 09:12 gloomy start.

So, concluding --- it will try and sync if there is daylight and looks like from the start of the next day instead of every 24hours!. Once syncronised thats it for the rest of that day period.
Hope this helps to understand a little bit more about the sync.


----------



## harald-hans

Just arrvied ...
View attachment 904670











Greetings from Germany

h-h


----------



## ronalddheld

Congratulations. Let us know your thoughts on the watch after a while.


----------



## stevenbgs1100

Does anyone own a Casio Edifice watch to compare against the Astron? 
I like the Astrons appeal with its relatively clean looks and Seikos technology.
i currently own a Seiko Chronograph watch, Rotary chronospeed and an Edifice EQW-M1100 but fancy something a little more high end. I have read loads of pages on this forum relating to the Astron and watched the YouTube vids that Joe form AZtime did and it still appeals.
I would be looking at the cheapest model in the Astron range at £1750. 
Basically I want to know if I'd be better spending the same money on a TC watch instead. But for £1750 I doubt many TC watches will be in my range.
Is the £1750 Astron justifiably better than a £300 Casio?


----------



## ronalddheld

That is subjective. Better finish than a Casio and less problems receiving signals versus a WWV receiver on the East Coast.


----------



## stevenbgs1100

I previously owned a G-Shock GW-3500B which was an amazing watch with super build quality, accurate hands, easy signal receive and looked cool too.
I paid just £172 for that as well. 
The Edifice EQW-M1100DB is also well made, the bracelet doesn't squeak, the second hand sweep hits all but a few second markers spot on, it picks up signals easy just like all my solar atomic G-Shocks did which were always kept at the back of my living room against a wall facing towards the window.
i understand there are some quality materials used in the Astrons like Ceramic, Titanium, Sapphire Crystal and newer technology which will certainly justify a higher premium than the Edifice. But at £1450 the difference is massive.


----------



## ronalddheld

After a month of no contact, the watch is 5 seconds fast. I may try for another month.


----------



## harald-hans

Now since 3 weeks - no problem - it sync`s every day ...


----------



## artec

Without in any way denigrating your G-Shock or Edifice, I think the Astron is an altogether different story. The engineering involved in the GPS reception and the several levels of automatic and semi-automatic adjustments also justify part of the price difference, I would suggest, and I think the numbers in which the various Astron models are made are probably much lower than the Casios', which will also hike the price up. Without making a direct comparison, with both watches in hand, I don't know that it's possible really to compare the fit and finish.

Having had an Astron for a few weeks, I thought it was an amazing value, though I must admit to having had a generous discount when I bought it. My reasons for selling it had nothing to do with price or value, by the way.


----------



## webvan

ronalddheld said:


> After a month of no contact, the watch is 5 seconds fast. I may try for another month.


Thanks for the update, so that's consistent with your previous 1s/5 days test. Not HAQ but I guess it's not too bad at the end of the day, certainly better than the 1 s/d of many (most?) casio RC watches.

Since you're thinking of running the test for another month, could you do the same test with the watch placed on top of a running computer or router to simulate a "worn" situation ? Hopefully it would slow down a bit.


----------



## ronalddheld

That is a good idea although I do not have a computer on all of the time or a router. Any other suggestions?


----------



## webvan

Hum...a cable box maybe? That usually stays pretty warm.


----------



## ronalddheld

Good idea but no cable.


----------



## webvan

ronalddheld said:


> Good idea but no cable.


Hum...how about a modem for your ADSL? These things pump out some heat? Anyway you know your house better than we do so hopefully you'll find something that stays warm at all times, if not, you still have your wrist ;-)


----------



## artec

He has his other wrist, too, probably!


----------



## ronalddheld

I do have two wrists, ut do not want to risk a sync when I am outside. No ADSL modem.


----------



## webvan

ok, so I'm curious, how do you get on the internet?


----------



## ronalddheld

If not via the phone, an aircard.


----------



## ronalddheld

AFter another month the watch gained not 5 more seconds, but lost ~1.5. I will sync it up today and try for another month in the same location.


----------



## Sabresoft

ronalddheld said:


> Not certain my watch is typical, but I will report on the offsets every 2 weeks or a month. Only three of us bought this watch?


Have had one on order since October. Seiko Canada doesn't actually list the Astron, but was able to reserve one of a limited number available in Canada.

Should have it soon. I could have ordered from Japan as I have done with several other watches, but trying to keep it under the radar, so dealing with a local AD was the preferred route.


----------



## Sabresoft

Checked the Seiko Canada site today and it seems that they have finally updated it to include Astron. Considering that the site was last updated in 2009 that's quite the surprise.


----------



## ronalddheld

I will report on the next month, but uncertain after that. I am looking forward to the performance of the morgenwerk watch. Unfortunately I will only be able to keep one of those GPS watches


----------



## Sabresoft

ronalddheld said:


> I will report on the next month, but uncertain after that. I am looking forward to the performance of the morgenwerk watch. Unfortunately I will only be able to keep one of those GPS watches


I might just take this delay in delivery as an excuse to cancel my order. Still not seeing much activity at Morgenwerk though.


----------



## everose

Some new additions join the Astron GPS line......

???????GPS????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## ronalddheld

Maybe they are waiting until Basel to unveil their watches officially? My email turnaround time with them can be a month, and I did ask to be able to preorder.


----------



## slooowr6

SAST015 looks nice with the red second hand.​


----------



## ronalddheld

Are you thinking of getting it?


----------



## slooowr6

Depends on how much it's going to be.


----------



## Sabresoft

Well finally my Seiko Astron SAST005 Arrived today. Picked it up this afternoon. Picture courtesy of Seiko website.









I'll have to take some pictures this weekend (actually 4 watches need to be added to my gallery).

I am very impressed with the look and feel of this watch, and while it is quite large, it does fit on my wrist quite comfortably.

One minor quibble. The "hollow" hands (especially the minute hand) can tend to disappear in less than perfect light, and when the lumed tip was over an hour marker it virtually totally disappeared on me. The secondary dial hands also can be hard to see in poor light. But in full light the watch looks fantastic. Speaking of lume, it looks good, and tonight I will be able to test it to see how long it lasts.

The watch was on Tokyo time when I picked it up. After leaving the store and sitting in my car reading the quick start guide I lowered the window, initiated a multi-satellite sync, and held my arm out the window. I didn't really time it, but I wasn't there long and as I pulled my arm in, noticed that the hands were moving to local (MST) time. Quite impressive.

The best was when I went in to pick it up, planning to request a discount partly on the basis of how long it took to arrive. As it is a new, limited supply model I didn't expect to get much of a break, but would have been happy with 10 or 15%. The first words out of the salesmen's lips was "There's a 25% discount!".

Considering the pending MorgenWerk watches that my be coming along soon, I was contemplating not keeping this watch, but after seeing it in the flesh I think that it will stay in the collection, and I'll just have to get one more watch later this year!


----------



## jayceetee

Sabresoft said:


> Well finally my Seiko Astron SAST005 Arrived today.
> 
> I am very impressed with the look and feel of this watch, and while it is quite large, it does fit on my wrist quite comfortably.
> 
> The first words out of the salesmen's lips was "There's a 25% discount."


Congrats on your latest acquisition and getting a great compensation for delayed shipment! 
Your description matched exactly what I felt when I first tried on my SAST013G. Wear it in good health.


----------



## jayceetee

everose said:


> Some new additions join the Astron GPS line......
> 
> ???????GPS????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


Hi everose. Thank you for pointing us to the Astron update. 
I really love the color changes in this new SAST015. 
Now to wait for news from the ADs....


----------



## ronalddheld

Coingratulations, Sabersoft. When the morgenwerk watch come out, I will have a hard decision as to which one to keep.


----------



## harald-hans

Astron for me today ...

View attachment 966327


Grüsse 

Gesendet von meinem Smartphone via Tapatalk


----------



## jayceetee

harald-hans said:


> Astron for me today ...


Great lume from your new SAST009. I'm sure it's a great conversation piece too.


----------



## Sabresoft

Well I did the lume test last night (well early this morning). The hour markers are great, the hands less so. Still this is really a daytime watch, and I have plenty of watches with night lighting (Airwolf, 2 Skyhawks, a G-Shock, Protrek and Timex) for nighttime use. Plus a Campanolo with a minute repeater. 

Other major observation is that the seconds hand hits the markers perfectly.


----------



## Sabresoft

ronalddheld said:


> Coingratulations, Sabersoft. When the morgenwerk watch come out, I will have a hard decision as to which one to keep.


That one's easy. I may end up spending retirement living in a box and eating cat food, but I'm going to keep both.

Actually I have been fairly lucky in my acquisition of higher priced watches. To date I have saved about $6000 on all my higher priced watches over the original MSRP cost, paying an average of 69% of MSRP (some good deals on new watches, some used but unworn).


----------



## ronalddheld

I would prefer to keep both, but that is not likely this year.


----------



## Sabresoft

Well here's the first photos. They're not too good. I took pictures of 5 watches. The other came out not too bad, but these two are not very good. I'll have to try again in better lighting (daytime not early evening).

View attachment 967137


View attachment 967138


----------



## ronalddheld

Appreciate your photos.


----------



## Sabresoft

Non scientific check of the Astron reveals about a 30 second gain in two days. Translates to about 8 SPM, or 96 SPY. Since I tolerate up to 10 seconds error in my TC watches, that means I'd have to sync about once a month.


----------



## ronalddheld

Something in incorrect. Could you check your calculations or measurement.?


----------



## Sabresoft

I was still half asleep this morning when I did that. It was 0.30 seconds, so about 8-9 SPM.


----------



## jayceetee

Sabresoft said:


> Non scientific check of the Astron reveals about a 30 second gain in two days. Translates to about 8 SPM, or 96 SPY. Since I tolerate up to 10 seconds error in my TC watches, that means I'd have to sync about once a month.


When I saw your post, it happened that I hadn't been wearing my Astron for more than 2 days so I ran a check. My watch was running at +.3 seconds (over the 2 days) or +0.15 spd. Without syncing, it would be about +55 spy. 
When we're wearing the watch, chances are that it will auto-sync as it needs only one satellite reception to do so. I don't think that should pose any problems.


----------



## ronalddheld

Another month has gone by and it lost 5 seconds. I am going back to wearing it for a while, since the Morgenwerk watch is not coming very soon, AFAIK.


----------



## Sabresoft

ronalddheld said:


> Another month has gone by and it lost 5 seconds. I am going back to wearing it for a while, since the Morgenwerk watch is not coming very soon, AFAIK.


I was hoping that we'd see more about these watches by now.


----------



## ronalddheld

I have been in contact with them but have nothing quantifable to add.


----------



## webvan

Do you know if they are planning to be at Baselworld? I was wondering if I'd pop down there again this year...


----------



## ronalddheld

I do know know whether the watch is to be released at Basel. I will be able to tell you when the website comes up as soon as I am informed.


----------



## Mike Weinberg

ronalddheld said:


> I do know know whether the watch is to be released at Basel. I will be able to tell you when the website comes up as soon as I am informed.


I bought a Seiko Astron GPS in November. It's highly accurate and adjusts frequently.

Interestingly, whenever it adjusts, it slows down to match my Breitling B-1, which hasn't been off by as much as one second in 36 months.


----------



## Eeeb

Mike Weinberg said:


> I bought a Seiko Astron GPS in November. It's highly accurate and adjusts frequently.
> 
> Interestingly, whenever it adjusts, it slows down to match my Breitling B-1, which hasn't been off by as much as one second in 36 months.


That is amazing. Actually I think it is luck... but amazing luck!! :-!


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## RejZoR

I don't quite understand the perpetual calendar till 2100 if the date is synchronized by GPS as well. Wouldn't that mean that it could have the correct time for as long as the watch operates? I mean it doesn't make sense to have a hardcoded date limit if it gets information from satelittes anyway...


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## jayceetee

RejZoR said:


> I don't quite understand the perpetual calendar till 2100 if the date is synchronized by GPS as well. Wouldn't that mean that it could have the correct time for as long as the watch operates? I mean it doesn't make sense to have a hardcoded date limit if it gets information from satelittes anyway...


I agree completely. I hope someone knowledgeable will post some info. It sure would be good to know.


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## ronalddheld

How many people will still use and have maintained this watch for ~90 years?


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## RejZoR

What if you're 15 years old and you expect to live till age of 130 and you just got the Astron watch?


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## ronalddheld

And you will want to wear it when newer better tech will be available in years? It is possible except the GPS system is unlikely to be running in.its.present form in that time span


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## petew

IIRC date information isn't contained in a GPS signal in a straightforward format. The data that comes over has to be calculated by the receiver in order to figure out exactly what date it is and furthermore, I think that the information...the way it's transmitted is only good up until a certain date. So the watch has to do some calculting and maybe use memory to do that work. That could explain why there is a limit. Hopefully someone will chime in with more info.


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## Hans Moleman

> As opposed to the year, month, and day format of the Gregorian calendar, the GPS date is expressed as a week number and a seconds-into-week number. The week number is transmitted as a ten-bit field in the C/A and P(Y) navigation messages, and so it becomes zero again every 1,024 weeks (19.6 years). GPS week zero started at 00:00:00 UTC (00:00:19 TAI) on January 6, 1980, and the week number became zero again for the first time at 23:59:47 UTC on August 21, 1999 (00:00:19 TAI on August 22, 1999). To determine the current Gregorian date, a GPS receiver must be provided with the approximate date (to within 3,584 days) to correctly translate the GPS date signal. To address this concern the modernized GPS navigation message uses a 13-bit field that only repeats every 8,192 weeks (157 years), thus lasting until the year 2137 (157 years after GPS week zero).


From: Wikipedia



Sounds like the Seiko does remember today's date, but only has 13 bits reserved for it. I guess it does not expect to live that long.

Where the 2100 comes from I don't know. I take it, that should be 2137 instead.


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## Sabresoft

I believe that shades of Y2K, the date may only be transmitted as a two digit date, and the watch wouldn't be able to distinguish between 2000 and 2100 based on a 00 year info transfer.


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## everose

The only anomaly i can find about Feb 2100 is that in a *"normal"* 4 year Gregorian calendar cycle it would have been a leap year......* BUT* it is not !

February 29 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Maths is fun......
Leap Years

I would speculate that its the internal firmware of Astron which probably lacks the flexibility to deal with this date rather than the GPS system. Seiko probably decided that it was not an issue requiring a resolution.....I would have to agree !

Anyway its all very academic to me.....I sure won't be around ! :-d


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## petew

everose said:


> I wonder if it is the internal firmware of Astron which lacks the flexibility to deal with this date rather than the GPS system?
> 
> Anyway its all very academic to me.....I sure won't be around ! :-d


This is a good point..we are all assuming that the Astron is calculating the date from the GPS data, but I guess it could be doing it on it's own?


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## Sabresoft

The 2100 limitation applies to RC watches too.


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## everose

petew said:


> ..we are all assuming that the Astron is calculating the date from the GPS data, but I guess it could be doing it on it's own?


I believe Astron GPS does in fact receive date info via satellite signals. 

From p27 of the 7x52 manual:.....
"Mechanism by which this watch sets the time and date

This watch receives GPS signals from GPS satellites to set the
.time and date based on the following information

Precise time and date based on the atomic clock •"


 Because the GPS system has the flexibility to add leap secs (UTC offset) data at irregular and unpredictable intervals, i would speculate that it probably also has the flexibility to deal with Feb 2100. This is why i think its more likely the internal firmware of Astron which may lack the ability to deal with/reconcile the Feb 2100 phenomenon.


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## Sabresoft

I think that most RC watch calibers (and possibly satellite too) only actually deal with a 2 digit date. For example my non-AT Citizen Skyhawk shows a 4 digit date in the setting display so I decided to set the watch to December 31, 2099 to see what happened, and the next day it showed January 1, 2000, so it was really carrying only a 2 digit date.


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## ronalddheld

Isn't a 2 digit date a limitation of the GPS system, for its data format?


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## everose

ronalddheld said:


> Isn't a 2 digit date a limitation of the GPS system, for its data format?


From what i have read dates are calculated by week numbers and transmitted as a 10-bit or 13-bit field....ie week no: 3,232 , and the days within week no 3,232 are calculated by a rolling number of seconds for that whole week.

From Wikipedia:
GPS augmentation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As opposed to the year, month, and day format of the Gregorian calendar, the GPS date is expressed as a week number and a seconds-into-week number. The week number is transmitted as a ten-bit field in the C/A and P(Y) navigation messages, and so it becomes zero again every 1,024 weeks (19.6 years). GPS week zero started at 00:00:00 UTC (00:00:19 TAI) on January 6, 1980, and the week number became zero again for the first time at 23:59:47 UTC on August 21, 1999 (00:00:19 TAI on August 22, 1999). To determine the current Gregorian date, a GPS receiver must be provided with the approximate date (to within 3,584 days) to correctly translate the GPS date signal. To address this concern the modernized GPS navigation message uses a 13-bit field, which only repeats every 8,192 weeks (157 years), thus lasting until the year 2137 (157 years after GPS week zero)."


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## japc

everose said:


> From what i have read dates are calculated by week numbers and transmitted as a 10-bit or 13-bit field....ie week no: 3,232 , and the days within week no 3,232 are calculated by a rolling number of seconds for that whole week.
> 
> From Wikipedia


Yes: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/seiko-solar-gps-658127-24.html#post6100585


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## ronalddheld

Did my first sync in a snowstorm. No problems compared to clear weather.


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## ronalddheld

Thsi is a difficult decision, but I will not be posting about this watch. It is now too heavy for prolonged wear and it is getting harder to read the small dials. Another reason to sell it. because there are no funds for the Morgenwerk watch. Of course I will be interested in other's ongoing experiences.


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## Hans Moleman

ronalddheld said:


> Thsi is a difficult decision, but I will not be posting about this watch. It is now too heavy for prolonged wear and it is getting harder to read the small dials. Another reason to sell it. because there are no funds for the Morgenwerk watch. Of course I will be interested in other's ongoing experiences.


Thanks for your contribution!
Guess that watch was not really made for skinny models dashing off for another photo shoot in Paris.


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## ronalddheld

All true, Hans. I would rather have it stay in the "family" before I put it up on Sales corner. Anyone interested can PM me.


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## ronalddheld

TimeZone : Seiko » Baselworld 2013 - NEW MODEL: Seiko Astron Kintaro Hattori LE..
new from Basel.


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## Pete26

I have had mine for about 3 weeks and I find it great. The SAST003 has synced everyday bar one since I got it as soon as I walk out into sunshine and even inside. The one day it didn't I did a manual sync and it worked fine. Mine is spot on with the atomic clock and has not deviated at all. I think the specs say that if it doesn't sync it will lose/gain gain 10-15 seconds. I agree with other comments about the lume, the markers are great and last all night the hands are less so. If I had the cash I would spring for the LE anniversary, as I love the hands on that.

I love this watch and in a moment of insanity was going to sell it. I'm glad I didn't. I have had atomic watches in Brisbane, but where I live they are hit and miss and you have to set them to Japanese time +DST and place them on a windowsill to sync. Mine have worked most nights, but forget it if you move out of the little hot spot I am in. I can't explain it at all.

The Astron has no such issues and the 10 jewels in the movement seem to hint at the longevity of this watch. The crystal is super clear, I suspect the same formula that Orient uses on the Orient Star SAR series

here are some wrist pics


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## Sabresoft

Amusing discovery last night. I usually select my watch for the next day when I go to bed. Of late I have been charging the lume on my selected watch (if it has serious lume or any lume at all) and sit it beside a recently acquired Traser watch with tritium tubes to compare the two through the night. Most nights of course the lume has it all over the tritium for the first hour or so due to the initial bloom and as the night progresses the tritium takes over, so for example this morning at 5 am the tritium is fully readable, and my Astron has readable, but just barely, hour markers, but the hands with their tiny lume tips cannot be seen. 

Now to the amusing discovery. As I was charging the Astron's lume with a bright LED flashlight, the watch kicked into satellite sync mode, and successfully made a sync in about 15 seconds (I was sitting within about 3 ft. of a window covered with blinds).


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## rd0401

Sabresoft said:


> Now to the amusing discovery. As I was charging the Astron's lume with a bright LED flashlight, the watch kicked into satellite sync mode, and successfully made a sync in about 15 seconds (I was sitting within about 3 ft. of a window covered with blinds).


Interesting bit of info Sabresoft! I've not figured out at what time mine auto synch's. The manual says it auto synchs at the same time of the last successful manual synch but so far I've not managed to catch it auto synching at that time. It definitely auto synchs if left within 2-3 feet of a window. I ideally want it to get it to auto synch on my drive to work in the morning. Currently trying to figure it out by having made it have an unsuccessful synch and now left it near a window to see if I can figure out the time of the next successful synch. I'm pretty dam happy with the Astron but would like to try a different strap, anyone fitted an fitted a different strap to one yet?


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## Sabresoft

I have noticed that quite frequently when wearing the watch and I do I a check on recent sync activity I get a Yes response, so I believe that the watch is autosynching and I just don't notice it. My home office has a large bay window and it seems to manually sync there quite happily and so may be doing so automatically on other days when I just don't notice, and as you suggest the drive to work may well be another opportunity where you just don't notice. Overall it seems that the outdoor, bright light criteria isn't quite as critical as I first thought. Which is good because standing outside with a bare arm for several minutes at subzero temperatures during the middle of winter just isn't too appealing.

As I keep it in a drawer when not wearing it (and have almost two dozen watches, of which I rotate about 16 regularly) there can be quite a long period where it doesn't see light, let alone daylight, so I think that at the first application of significant light (sunlight or bright LED light) the watch will do an automatic sync.


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## everose

Sabresoft said:


> As I keep it in a drawer when not wearing it (and have almost two dozen watches, of which I rotate about 16 regularly) there can be quite a long period where it doesn't see light, let alone daylight,.......


What is the lowest that the PR indicator showed when you first took it out of the drawer after being stored for "quite a long period" and what do you consider to be "quite a long period" in this instance ?

Thanks in advance.


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## ronalddheld

I have observed that while going outside, when the light is intense enought and the watch has not been synched ofr over 24 hours, that it will try to synch up.


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## admiratus

I recently received the Seiko Astron watch as a gift. It was a huge surprise to receive this on my birthday! 
Anyway, i've attached some photos to the post. I think that it's a very handsome watch and I love the crystal on it.

I did have some reservations about the syncing...but it seems to sync quite well. I travel overseas for work and I was able to test it out in a couple timezones on my last business trip and it worked very well. The only complaint I had was that I had to adjust the DST setting manually.

Overall, I really like this watch.


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## Sabresoft

everose said:


> What is the lowest that the PR indicator showed when you first took it out of the drawer after being stored for "quite a long period" and what do you consider to be "quite a long period" in this instance ?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The longest it has sat in the drawer is no more than two weeks. The PR is always reading full.


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## Sabresoft

admiratus said:


> I recently received the Seiko Astron watch as a gift. It was a huge surprise to receive this on my birthday!
> Anyway, i've attached some photos to the post. I think that it's a very handsome watch and I love the crystal on it.
> 
> I did have some reservations about the syncing...but it seems to sync quite well. I travel overseas for work and I was able to test it out in a couple timezones on my last business trip and it worked very well. The only complaint I had was that I had to adjust the DST setting manually.
> 
> Overall, I really like this watch.
> 
> View attachment 1096778
> View attachment 1096779


The DST thing is more political than geographic. For example two jurisdictions that share the same longitude may choose to be different by starting/stopping DST at different dates, or in deed one may opt not to use DST at all. It is difficult for the watch to be able to decipher this (it could be programmed in, but as jurisdictions change policies this programming could/would become obsolete).


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## ronalddheld

With what it does automatically I am not disturbed about manually setting DST.


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## everose

Sabresoft said:


> The DST thing is more political than geographic,.......as jurisdictions change policies this programming could/would become obsolete).


And DST's etc seem to be played around with by politicians much more than i initially thought.

Check out this mess !....
Time Zone News - countries that change their clocks

So an auto DST function (without any ability for regular updating of DST related firmware) would probably be out of date and obsolete within months if not weeks !


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## Sabresoft

Then you get confusions like the Canadian province of Saskatchewan which doesn't use DST, except for the City of Llyodminster which straddles the Alberta/Saskatchewan border so that the whole city is on the same time, as Alberta does follow DST.


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## lucci

I seem to have found a quirk with my Seiko Astron timepiece, and I don't think it is limited to my specific watch. If you have one of these, would you mind trying the following?

Manually set the watch to an incorrect date by following the instructions on p.44. Namely:
1. Unlock the crown.
2. Pull out the crown to the second click.
3. Press Button B or Button C to set the date (random incorrect date).
4. Push the crown back in.

Now do a 4+ GPS sync. Does the date correct itself?

My watch doesn't seem to be able to correct itself after the above procedure, it just stays on the same date. It seems that by "manually setting the date," I have also altered the preliminary date position. I know this because if I follow the instructions on p. 46 "Preliminary position of this watch," the preliminary date is no longer "1," but it is offset by the number of days I changed in Step 3 above.

The watch strangely cannot seem to keep track of the date once you manually set it to a random value. This is definitely not the case when you manually set the watch to an incorrect time, as syncing the watch with the GPS will (obviously) correct the time.

Anyway, I hope this hasn't been discussed before, I just found it kind of interesting.


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## ronalddheld

Have you fed this back to the AD from which you bought the watch?


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## lucci

No, I haven't yet. The last time I contacted my AD, it took him three and a half weeks to respond. So I'm just trying to make sure there is something wrong with watch before I contact him again. Any assistance here is greatly appreciated!


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## rd0401

Did anyone else's astron pick up the leap second data in the last few days? Mine picked it up this morning. Went to get it off the window sill and it was showing leap second data reception. Actually failed as I think it didn't get a strong enough signal. Re-tried it outside and it connected with no issues. The leap second process took about 12-13 mins in total. Need to do some googling on what data actually is and why it's needed! Anyhow just thought it was interesting that it automatically started to download the data.


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## webvan

Odd, no leap seconds since last year -> The Future of Leap Seconds !


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## rd0401

webvan said:


> Odd, no leap seconds since last year -> The Future of Leap Seconds !


Now you've pointed that out it is a bit odd! It was definitely leap second data as it did exactly what the manual says it does when doing leap second data. And I guess it's the right time of the year for leap second data. Maybe it was data saying there wasn't going to be a leap second in June! The manual says the data contains information about the current as well as future leap seconds. Be interested to know if anyone else's astron went in to leap second data mode this June???


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## ronalddheld

I have not tried to see if it did that. i expect no leap seconds for a while, but is the table downloaded twice a year whether it has been updated or not?


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## everose

Apparently the leap-second data preparation function still takes place *even if no leap second is actually added *according to p30 of the English version user manual.

So when it goes into leap-sec prep mode it DOES NOT necessarily indicate that there is definitely a leap second occurring at that time.
Its still probably better to check with sources like timeanddate.com for that kind of info.


Btw Seikojp just released some info re Astron GPS leap second reception on the front page of their website and it seems some people think it indicated that a leap sec had just occurred. I can understand it causing some confusion !

Seiko Astron GPS-All about leap second information.


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## Eeeb

everose said:


> Apparently the leap-second data preparation function still takes place *even if no leap second is actually added *according to p30 of the English version user manual.
> 
> So when it goes into leap-sec prep mode it DOES NOT necessarily indicate that there is definitely a leap second occurring at that time.
> Its still probably better to check with sources like timeanddate.com for that kind of info.
> 
> 
> Btw Seikojp just released some info re Astron GPS leap second reception on the front page of their website and it seems some people think it indicated that a leap sec had just occurred. I can understand it causing some confusion !
> 
> Seiko Astron GPS-All about leap second information.


I believe the timing of leap seconds is subject to change. Certainly one could not predict them eventually. So it makes sense to have devices look for them and have a way of doing the addition or not.


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## ronalddheld

It would be easier not to update the table unless there were an upcoming one and the table was correctly initialized at the factory.


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## Hans Moleman

rd0401 said:


> ... The manual says the data contains information about the current as well as future leap seconds. ...


How does a GPS receiver know in advance that a leap second is about to hit?



> Words six through 10 of page 18 of subframe four of the GPS broadcast navigation
> message contain the values of Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) parameters that
> permit a GPS receiver to determine UTC corresponding to a particular instant of GPS
> Time. This page is transmitted once during the 12.5-minute-long navigation message.
> The parameters include the current number of UTC leap seconds since January
> 1980, when GPS Time was set equal to UTC, as well as information on the most
> recent or announced future leap second.


from: http://iraf.noao.edu/~seaman/leap/GPS-Nov99_Innov.pdf


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## ronalddheld

It is bulletin c from the Earth orientation service http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=mission&lang=en


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## Hans Moleman

ronalddheld said:


> It is bulletin c from the Earth orientation service http://hpiers.obspm.fr/eop-pc/index.php?index=mission&lang=en


The horse's mouth!


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## davidtsee

Hans Moleman said:


> The horse's mouth!


I had a horse once.


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## artec

davidtsee said:


> I had a horse once.


The mouth nd must be a lot better than the other one.


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