# ALS grey market value - too hard to flip?



## tommyjai92

I'd love you hear your thoughts on this, purely for discussion.

Recently I've been browsing watchrecon and this came across my mind.
Common ALS listings range from 20k up to 100k+ I assume one would purchase an ALS for a special occasion (wedding, promotion, milestone) or just because you love the damn watch.
Given ALS is a relatively 'young' brand compared to other swiss manufacturers, there's probably less vintage stock available for trading. So the stock on the grey market would be say less than 5-10 years old? So a lot of it would still be available to be purchased at an AD

So for the money you'd dish out, wouldn't you prefer to visit an AD feel and see the watch in person? Or more importantly, hold the box and papers under your own name
Or from a more pessimistic perspective, for the money you pay wouldn't you want to avoid grey market risks? 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to impose that grey market dealers aren't reputable, I've bought and purchased in the grey market myself and found the community to be highly reputable and helpful.


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## jsg1976

I just bought an ALS from a trusted seller here on the forum. I wouldn't have been able to afford to purchase one without trading in some other pieces, and the trade in values on my existing pieces the trusted sellers were offering vastly exceeded what my AD was willing to offer (if they would even take them). So while the price I paid from the TS was about the same as what I would've paid from my AD, my out of pocket cash was significantly lower. And for my trouble I got a brand new sealed in the plastic ALS, with all the boxes and stamped and dated papers. So while all things being equal I would have preferred to walk into my AD and walk out with a brand new ALS on my wrist (which I wouldn't have done anyway, because I would've had to have it shipped out of state to avoid sales tax), for me the trusted seller route made more sense. 


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## CFR

These are interesting questions.

Many of the gray-market and preowned Lange models are no longer available at ADs. Even the iconic Lange 1 was updated about a year ago with a different movement and slightly different case/dial. Also, the purchaser's name doesn't appear anywhere on Lange's warranty papers. Only the name of the original selling dealer appears there (along with the sale date). So there isn't really such a thing as "holding the box and papers under your own name."

Your point about gray-market risks is well-taken. I bought a brand new Langematik Perpetual from a gray-market dealer 15 years ago, back in 2003, shortly after Lange started delivering those models to dealers. The gray-market dealer delivered it to me with the wrong color winder (a yellow winder instead of a silver winder -- yellow was supposed to accompany the YG models, and silver was supposed to accompany the PT models, which is what I bought). The gray-market dealer wouldn't do anything to change the winder: "I ship everything as I receive it and there's nothing I can or will do" is basically what he said. Also, when you purchase from and AD, the AD will likely cover shipping to/from Lange if you have any problems with the watch during the warranty period. I'd be surprised if any gray-market dealers would do that.

A lot comes down to the spread: "How much will I save if I don't buy from an AD, and is the savings worth the risk?" Fifteen-plus years ago, there was a huge spread between AD vs. gray-market prices. Since then, I believe the spread has narrowed considerably.


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## tommyjai92

What happened with the Langematik in the end? Did you have to take it back to ALS to get replacement parts?

And yea, I've noticed the spread getting smaller, I feel it's because over the years, interest for ALS has grown considerably, which has subsequently led to more buyers. Which is great for the brand as their timepieces are absolutely works of art.


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## CFR

The watch was fine. The winder was just the wrong color, so technically it wasn't supposed to accompany this watch. I did eventually get the correct winder from ALS, but with no help from the gray dealer.

ALS also decreased the AD's profit margin between wholesale and retail from what it was 15 years ago. Now there's less wiggle room than there used to be.


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## Dancing Fire

CFR said:


> The watch was fine. The winder was just the wrong color, so technically it wasn't supposed to accompany this watch. I did eventually get the correct winder from ALS, but with no help from the gray dealer.
> 
> ALS also decreased the AD's profit margin between wholesale and retail from what it was 15 years ago. Now there's less wiggle room than there used to be.


So, No more 30% off from ADs?


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## TJMike

Dancing Fire said:


> So, No more 30% off from ADs?


Considering that grey market sellers usually discount Lange watches by about 20%, it will be difficult getting 30% off from ADs.

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## Solomente

TJMike said:


> Considering that grey market sellers usually discount Lange watches by about 20%, it will be difficult getting 30% off from ADs.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It depends where you are and what model but it's not that difficult. ADs offer me 20% off without any bargaining on my part. You can find 30%+ of with grey market for some models.


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## jwb713

Could someone define what a gray market transaction looks like? Where are they getting the watches and how are they realizing the cost savings? I get the concept in general but new to watches. Thanks!


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## CFR

A grey-market transaction involves a new, unworn watch that is being sold by a dealer who is NOT an authorized Lange dealer. The warranty certificate may or may not have a date on it. Gray-market dealers get their watches from authorized Lange dealers, typically at a discount that's deeper than most consumers would get from the AD. Authorized dealers are not supposed to sell watches to gray-market dealers, and Lange cracks down on this from time to time by ending the company's relationship with the authorized dealers who sell regularly to the gray market.


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## jwb713

Got it. Thanks.


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## CFR

Price is the reason to buy a watch from the gray market.

One major downside of "buying gray" is that it prevents you from establishing a relationship with an AD. That means you'll have no access to desirable pieces (limited editions, etc.) that the AD sells if you want to buy another watch -- say a desirable limited edition Lange. This matters more if you're a collector than if you're a one-time purchaser. In the short term, the downside of buying a gray-market watch is that the gray-market dealer typically won't take care of you at all once you take delivery of the watch. If the watch breaks during the warranty period, then you're on your own when it comes to paying for shipping to/from Lange and dealing with Lange to get it fixed. With a Lange and many other expensive brands most ADs will pay for shipping and take care of all that hassle for you, because the AD wants to keep you as a future customer. But Langes are quite reliable so there usually aren't any issues for many years. If we were talking about buying a brand new FP Journe from a dealer, then you're much more likely to have reliability issues.

Bottom line for me is that if there's a huge price difference, then it makes better sense to buy from a gray-market dealer. Otherwise, it makes sense to pay a bit of a premium and go with an AD.

As an aside, Lange and other brands also have company-owned boutiques. Boutiques may be able to discount and offer certain other unique perks, depending upon the brand. But boutique discounts may not be as generous as AD discounts, and buying from a boutique also prevents you from establishing a relationship with an AD that would give you access to other brands that the boutique doesn't sell (again, this matters only to collectors, not to one-time watch buyers).


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## Icycas

I think the grey market for langes is robust. Earlier releases are sought after, most are now discontinued.


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## mastaplana

Can you guys recommend any reliable grey market ALS dealers? I am looking to find a discontinued model.


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