# Zenith pilot gmt type 20 not winding on winder



## Maybach1

Has anyone encountered any issues with winding this 48mm watch with the in house elite 693? It stays wound when worn and has a great reserve but when I place it on my almost vertical winder (versa) it stops winding after the reserve runs out. I used setting for 650tpd and just upped it to 850tpd. I'll see how it goes.
I've used the same winder for a befitting soh 46 chrono and a Cartier santos chrono without any issues, ever!
Any advice, input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
M


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## MrDagon007

Could it be that the elite winds in 1 direction (I don't know) and that your winder turns only in the other direction?


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## Hartmut Richter

No, the Elite calibre is bidirectionally winding. I suspect that the rotor is loose or something else wrong with the automatic winding system. Does it wind adequately when manually wound?

Hartmut Richter


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## Maybach1

Hartmut is right, it's no directional. I've tried both directions on their own and alternatively with no luck. When I manually wind the watch it seems to be running perfectly. If I wear it for a few days - with some off-wrist time- it keeps time and stays wound until I stop wearing it for a couple days or when I place it on the winder. I was thinking maybe it's the angle at which the watch sits on the winder? I've tried propping the bottom of my winder to make it perfectly vertical but that didn't work either. I was also thinking like you that maybe something is wrong with the mechanism but then why would it work when it's on my wrist? Thanks for the replies and looking forward to your knowledgeable input


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## 99problems

I literally jumped on here to see if others have experienced something similar since I'm on my 2nd Bronze Pilot Extra Special with the Elite 679 mov't. First watch would always stop on the winder. I have 5 winders, tried 3 different ones, both bi-directional, one direction only in both directions, everything from 600 - 1200 tpd. Nothing would keep it going. Sent the watch back 2 times to Zenith and both times they said nothing wrong, serviced it (???) and sent back. My retailer was good enough to exchange the watch for another new one after the 2nd service took 2 months and returned with the same issue, and guess what?.... Same GD thing! So my dealer now has my watch and was testing on their winder, convinced I must be insane since they've not had others returning watches with this issue... but low and behold, after 7 days, on their winder, watch stops... the hypothesis now is that maybe the fact that the winders hold the watch in a vertical position that is the issue (Wolf 2.1). Which if THAT is the case, I'm going to lose my mind. How a manufacturer could create a movement that only winds if at a specific angle in a winder and NOT have that prominently noted to a buyer is a deal breaker for me. Never had this issue with my Panerai, Blancpain, Bremont, Omega, etc. etc... I love the look of the watch, but call the thing a manual wind if every time I want to wear it I'm giving it 20+ turns of the crown to get it moving...


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## Maybach1

Thanks for the information. I'm glad -somewhat- that I'm not the only one and that the watch isn't defective. I'm gonna try winding it with another non vertical winder I have and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted. 

On another note, when you manually wind it - shaking method- do you hear the rotor making a grinding type of sound. Mine sounds like the initial turn is grinding but then it smoothly turns a few times. 


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## 99problems

Maybach1 said:


> Thanks for the information. I'm glad -somewhat- that I'm not the only one and that the watch isn't defective. I'm gonna try winding it with another non vertical winder I have and see how it goes. I'll keep you posted.
> 
> On another note, when you manually wind it - shaking method- do you hear the rotor making a grinding type of sound. Mine sounds like the initial turn is grinding but then it smoothly turns a few times.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't have the watch to test to tell you for sure, but I do recall hearing the rotor make a funny noise in the 1st watch just moving my wrist quickly... as for saying its NOT defective... well, I'm not so sure. I guess strictly speaking if there is a method by which you can get the watch to wind with a specific angle of winder, then the movt isn't broken, but that would be a Sh*t design, and certainly one that Zenith should tell people about before selling them the watch in my opinion.


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## Maybach1

99problems said:


> I don't have the watch to test to tell you for sure, but I do recall hearing the rotor make a funny noise in the 1st watch just moving my wrist quickly... as for saying its NOT defective... well, I'm not so sure. I guess strictly speaking if there is a method by which you can get the watch to wind with a specific angle of winder, then the movt isn't broken, but that would be a Sh*t design, and certainly one that Zenith should tell people about before selling them the watch in my opinion.


I definitely agree with you on zenith disclosing that information. I'm hoping other people will read the post and share their stories. I've read other zenith movements having issues with winders. It must have something to do with the small size of their movements. For now it's not that big of an inconvenience for me as it's my primary watch and my other watches get wound. I will probably get rid of it once it gets more shelf time than wrist.
The watch isn't defective as per their standard but doesn't work properly according to end users so in a way it is defective? Lol

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## 99problems

Maybach1, did you try a tilted winder to see if that solved your issue? Put a ping into my AD to see what the results of his tests were but didn't hear back yet.


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## Maybach1

99problems said:


> Maybach1, did you try a tilted winder to see if that solved your issue? Put a ping into my AD to see what the results of his tests were but didn't hear back yet.


I tried tilting my vertical winder to about a 45 degree angle to no avail. I do have a 45 degree angle winder but figured since I tried the tilted method and it didn't work it would be a waste of time. 
I decided to reach out to zenith and the customer care rep didn't seem to be that knowledgeable or helpful. I figured that out quickly when he insisted on arguing with me about my watch not having a screw down crown. 
I brought it to my local dealer where it was purchased. By just explaining the situation to him, he told me he never heard of that issue. Something I obviously took with a grain of salt as he has more to lose by disclosing such damaging information with me. He thought my winder was the issue as he said whenever there's a winding issue it's usually the winder and not the watch/movement. I told him about my other watches winding without issues so he decided to help out.
He will be running some tests on his "powerful and special" winder and give me an update in 2 weeks.
He also took a listen at the rotor sound which I was worried about but said it wasn't the issue and it sounded fine.
If the test comes out inconclusive or if there is in fact an issue he would send it to zenith for further analysis as it's still under warranty. Just barely. Lol
I'll keep you posted.

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## 99problems

Ugh... De ja vu right there. I went through sending my 1st Bronze Extra Special back 2 times to Zenith for service to no avail as you know. This 2nd watch isn't fairing any better. The disturbing thing is Zenith service, in both cases of getting the watch back, said "they couldn't reproduce the issue" which is TOTAL BS. What that tells me is Zenith likely knows they have an issue with a too small movement/rotor in that large case (presumption on my part about why the watch doesn't stay wound on the winder). My AD has only had it on the angled winder for a couple days, so its still within its power reserve at this point, but I'll know more in a couple days. Neither they, nor I, think it will make a difference as you've already found out. 

I'm planning to get the name of Zenith's NA rep and put a call into him directly. Maybe enough of their customers that buy a pilot with the Elite movement don't go more than 1 week without wearing it, and as such they don't hear from enough pissed off customers to deal with it? I don't see how I could have got 2 brand new watches with a defective movement that misbehaves in exactly the same way unless its a flaw in the design.

Well, lesson learned. This will be my last Zenith, regardless of the outcome. I've had the watch out to service/ AD testing as much as I've had it in my possession, and while its one of my less expensive watches, its still WAY too much money to spend on something that can't perform as advertised. Hugely disappointing, as it is lovely to look at...


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## Maybach1

A few things to note. 
1- I also fell for their unique gorgeous looks. Of course I didn't jump in blindly, my research found nothing but positive feedback regarding the company and their in house movement and THAT combination sold me on the watch. Otherwise I wouldn't spend the thousands on it. 

2- I was also inclined to think that it had to be the size of the movement. I mean what else would cause this issue? But then I thought about the watches dating until the late 90's - when the big cases/movements grew popularity- and all those small watches didn't have any issues with winding- unless I'm wrong?.

3- if the dealer has to send it to zenith, I'm probably gonna sell it. It's gonna hurt because I love the look but I have a watch rotation and I would be putting extra strain on the push screw crown with all the winding I'd have to do. Not worth it.

Let me know what happens with your dealer and I'll keep you posted as well.


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## JodyH

The size of the movement within the case has nothing to do with winding.
A full 360 revolution is a full 360 revolution no matter what the case to movement ratio is.
You could have a 10 meter diameter case with a 30mm diameter movement inside of it and if the case makes a full 360 degree revolution the movement inside also makes a 360 degree revolution.

My Type 20 bronze Pilot has spent weeks on a winder without any issues.
It's also spent 18 hours on the wrist, 8 on the nightstand... repeat... for weeks at a time without any power reserve or winding issues.

I have seen the cheaper Versa winders randomly stop before though, especially with larger diameter or heavy watches.
My Ball Spacemaster is heavy enough that it will occasionally make the winder slow down or randomly stop then restart due to the little tension belt slipping.
If neither the manufacturer nor the dealer can replicate your issue you might look into the winder being the problem, especially if the watch stays wound just fine while on the wrist.


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## Maybach1

JodyH said:


> The size of the movement within the case has nothing to do with winding.
> A full 360 revolution is a full 360 revolution no matter what the case to movement ratio is.
> You could have a 10 meter diameter case with a 30mm diameter movement inside of it and if the case makes a full 360 degree revolution the movement inside also makes a 360 degree revolution.
> 
> My Type 20 bronze Pilot has spent weeks on a winder without any issues.
> It's also spent 18 hours on the wrist, 8 on the nightstand... repeat... for weeks at a time without any power reserve or winding issues.
> 
> I have seen the cheaper Versa winders randomly stop before though, especially with larger diameter or heavy watches.
> My Ball Spacemaster is heavy enough that it will occasionally make the winder slow down or randomly stop then restart due to the little tension belt slipping.
> If neither the manufacturer nor the dealer can replicate your issue you might look into the winder being the problem, especially if the watch stays wound just fine while on the wrist.


Everything you've said makes perfectly logical sense. I actually hope you're right because I don't mind dishing 300-500 on a good quality winder and having the watch properly wound. I am hopeful the dealer says he doesn't encounter any issues that way I know the winder is the issue. A much smaller expense to rectify.

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## Maybach1

JodyH said:


> The size of the movement within the case has nothing to do with winding.
> A full 360 revolution is a full 360 revolution no matter what the case to movement ratio is.
> You could have a 10 meter diameter case with a 30mm diameter movement inside of it and if the case makes a full 360 degree revolution the movement inside also makes a 360 degree revolution.
> 
> My Type 20 bronze Pilot has spent weeks on a winder without any issues.
> It's also spent 18 hours on the wrist, 8 on the nightstand... repeat... for weeks at a time without any power reserve or winding issues.
> 
> I have seen the cheaper Versa winders randomly stop before though, especially with larger diameter or heavy watches.
> My Ball Spacemaster is heavy enough that it will occasionally make the winder slow down or randomly stop then restart due to the little tension belt slipping.
> If neither the manufacturer nor the dealer can replicate your issue you might look into the winder being the problem, especially if the watch stays wound just fine while on the wrist.


By the way which winder are you using on yours?

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## JodyH

Maybach1 said:


> By the way which winder are you using on yours?


Some 4 watch horizontal winder my wife bought me several years ago.
No brand name on it.

I did have two Versa winders that crapped out in under 6 months. 
Both would randomly quit working (especially with heavy or 44mm+ watches).
They seemed to work fine on most watches but with a larger watch they never did work consistently.


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## 99problems

JodyH said:


> The size of the movement within the case has nothing to do with winding.
> A full 360 revolution is a full 360 revolution no matter what the case to movement ratio is.
> You could have a 10 meter diameter case with a 30mm diameter movement inside of it and if the case makes a full 360 degree revolution the movement inside also makes a 360 degree revolution.
> 
> My Type 20 bronze Pilot has spent weeks on a winder without any issues.
> It's also spent 18 hours on the wrist, 8 on the nightstand... repeat... for weeks at a time without any power reserve or winding issues.
> 
> I have seen the cheaper Versa winders randomly stop before though, especially with larger diameter or heavy watches.
> My Ball Spacemaster is heavy enough that it will occasionally make the winder slow down or randomly stop then restart due to the little tension belt slipping.
> If neither the manufacturer nor the dealer can replicate your issue you might look into the winder being the problem, especially if the watch stays wound just fine while on the wrist.


I'm glad your bronze pilot is ticking along nicely. The wear for 18 off for 8 says nothing though, as the watch has a 50 hour power reserve (which I've tested for, and it is hitting that mark. Somehow I've happened upon 2 defective watches then, both brand new. Its not the winders, as I have 5 wolf winders, all of which at this point have attempted to keep the watch wound to no avail. Bare in mind that those same winders keep my automatic Panerai, Blancpain, Omega, Previous Zenith, Bremont, etc. wound without any issue, ever. The Omega, a SeaMaster with a steel bracelet at 45.5 mm, would weigh more than the Zenith, no issue. My previous 48 MM Zenith Pilot 1903 GMT, also not a problem. The AD has replicated the issue on the 2nd watch at the shop now as well, unable to keep it going after several days on the winder without wear. If its not an inherent flaw in the design (which I admit seems unlikely) then the movement itself is at issue, again. I don't believe the service center did attempt to replicate the issue at all, as it's repeatable every time by simply leaving the watch on a winder for 7+ days. Zenith's service center was also completely hopeless as far as providing any information to the AD, including zero notes when the watch came back the 2nd time other than "No issue found. Watch serviced". Its possible I'm the unluckiest purchasers of the Zenith bronze in the world, granted, but how it is that Zenith serviced it and it returned with the exact same issue is the part that I don't get.


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## Maybach1

My jeweller called regarding the watch. I didn't speak with him but he left me a brief message saying they've ran the watch on their powerful winder for the past 10 days and it did not stop. He also offered to send it to zenith in case I wanted to but emphasized the issue lies with my winder. I find that strange but nonetheless I'll give him a call to ask what type of winder he uses and if perhaps I can borrow it for a few days to see if it replicates the same success at my house...with an option of buying it if it does. 


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## 99problems

mine as well, they got an Orbita winder in for it to run on (45-ish degree from what I could tell by the photo). at 7 days it was still going. I just pinged to see if we made it to 10 days without stopping. Hoping thats the answer, which then leaves me with just the gripe of Zenith not providing this caveat up front, but at least having a means to keep the watch wound.


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## 99problems

Well, after 9 days, even the Orbita winder couldn't keep the watch running. So clearly the mov't has an issue. Going with plan B of having the AD's watch maker open it up to check its lubrication, check the rotor to see if maybe its over tightened, or WHAT... clearly Zenith service thinks the mov't is working to spec, but spec apparently stops working on a winder...


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## almeladze

99problems said:


> I'm glad your bronze pilot is ticking along nicely. The wear for 18 off for 8 says nothing though, as the watch has a 50 hour power reserve (which I've tested for, and it is hitting that mark. Somehow I've happened upon 2 defective watches then, both brand new. Its not the winders, as I have 5 wolf winders, all of which at this point have attempted to keep the watch wound to no avail. Bare in mind that those same winders keep my automatic Panerai, Blancpain, Omega, Previous Zenith, Bremont, etc. wound without any issue, ever. The Omega, a SeaMaster with a steel bracelet at 45.5 mm, would weigh more than the Zenith, no issue. My previous 48 MM Zenith Pilot 1903 GMT, also not a problem. The AD has replicated the issue on the 2nd watch at the shop now as well, unable to keep it going after several days on the winder without wear. If its not an inherent flaw in the design (which I admit seems unlikely) then the movement itself is at issue, again. I don't believe the service center did attempt to replicate the issue at all, as it's repeatable every time by simply leaving the watch on a winder for 7+ days. Zenith's service center was also completely hopeless as far as providing any information to the AD, including zero notes when the watch came back the 2nd time other than "No issue found. Watch serviced". Its possible I'm the unluckiest purchasers of the Zenith bronze in the world, granted, but how it is that Zenith serviced it and it returned with the exact same issue is the part that I don't get.


Folks, I started having the same issue. Purchased Zenith Pilot 1903 GMT in April 2017. It was fine till now. A couple of weeks ago I noticed that it had stopped while on the winder. I went through the routine of trying unidirectional and bidirectional winding but the watch keeps stopping. It winds well manually and on the wrist. Granted initially I woke the watch a lot more than I do now (summer makes the bund strap watch uncomfortable wear). I use a Heiden winder purchased on Amazon and I've had no issues with it in the 2 years that I've owned it. It winds 2 of my Ulysse Nardins, a JLC and a Raymon Weil just fine. It's got about a 45 degree angle. I want to try winding the watch at the most tpd. If that doesnt help I will switch the watches around. Lastly, I will try another winder winder which I have in my other home (a vertical one). Afterwards, I will call my dealer and/or Zenith to give them my piece of mind. I am not too excited on sending the watch to the service center but my take it to Cellini's for testing if the problem persists.

Granted the stopping issue is not as annoying as it would have been had this watch been equipped with a calendar, but someone in this thread did mention something about putting a strain on the crown with regular winding. I do not know if this a real concern but since I am paranoid about my watches bow I have one more thing to worry about


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## Maybach1

99problems said:


> Well, after 9 days, even the Orbita winder couldn't keep the watch running. So clearly the mov't has an issue. Going with plan B of having the AD's watch maker open it up to check its lubrication, check the rotor to see if maybe its over tightened, or WHAT... clearly Zenith service thinks the mov't is working to spec, but spec apparently stops working on a winder...


The orbita kept it wound for 7 days but after 9 it stopped? Maybe the movements lubricant dries quicker? I had dust particles that appeared under my sapphire - it started with 1 and eventually I had 3 particles under the glass. The dealer said they may have gone in there when I unscrewed the crown to wind it- thanks to the winding issues. Maybe having to open the crown so often to wind it dries out lubricant...catch 22 scenario though...I'm almost out of ideas.

My watch was sent to zenith last week to check 3 things;
1- the watch winder issue
2- lint/dust particles inside watch
3- check water proof after opening it.

Should take 2-3 weeks for them to come back with an answer but I'm sure I'll hear the same as you did. Just a hunch.

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## almeladze

All, I have the same issue with my watch. bought it in April. Initially it worked fine and winding had no issues. Granted initially after purchase I used the watch a lot more often than I do in this scorching heat (bund strap makes wearing it in the summer a little uncomfortable). I use a Heiden winder which holds watches at a 45 degree angle. It winds my JLC, Raymond Weil and 2 Ulysse Nardins just fine. However, in the last month my Zenith pilot type 20 GMT started randomly stopping while in the winder. It does this in 1-2 days of sitting in the winder (in other words doesnt need a week to stop). I have not addressed my dealer and Zenith with this issue yet but I guess I am going to have to do it sooner or later. I do have one more winder (a vertical one purchased from torneau in NYC) in my other home and I want to test the watch there before starting to ring the alarm bells. however, I must agree that it is a total turn-off if Zenith cant address this issue. I was looking at the new Zenith Defy El Primero skeleton for my next purchase but now I will think twice before committing to it.


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## 99problems

almeladze said:


> All, I have the same issue with my watch. bought it in April. Initially it worked fine and winding had no issues. Granted initially after purchase I used the watch a lot more often than I do in this scorching heat (bund strap makes wearing it in the summer a little uncomfortable). I use a Heiden winder which holds watches at a 45 degree angle. It winds my JLC, Raymond Weil and 2 Ulysse Nardins just fine. However, in the last month my Zenith pilot type 20 GMT started randomly stopping while in the winder. It does this in 1-2 days of sitting in the winder (in other words doesnt need a week to stop). I have not addressed my dealer and Zenith with this issue yet but I guess I am going to have to do it sooner or later. I do have one more winder (a vertical one purchased from torneau in NYC) in my other home and I want to test the watch there before starting to ring the alarm bells. however, I must agree that it is a total turn-off if Zenith cant address this issue. I was looking at the new Zenith Defy El Primero skeleton for my next purchase but now I will think twice before committing to it.


The different angle of the winder won't make a difference, but like you, I wanted to be sure. The distressing part to me is that after sending the watch to Zenith service 2 times, both times I was told no issue. So going back to my previous post, zenith's "Spec" for the movement clearly allows for the rotor to stop turning by virtue of some issue (either lubrication, over tightening, other?) which means sending it back to them didn't solve the issue. We'll see where I get to with my AD's watch maker/repair guy checking it. Not sure what my next steps after that will be, but at minimum I'm going to ask the AD for a direct contact at Zenith to address the issue to, not their cust. service #.


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## almeladze

99problems, thank you for the reply. I am getting even more frustrated. I recently went on a trip that spanned 5 days and consciously only took one watch with me to force myself to wear on this piece (to test if the watch was winding OK on the wrist). Having take it off the winder in a stopped condition I wound it and wore all day Thursday. Friday it sat on a bedtime table for most of the day (only wore it for 2-3 hours in the evening). Same on Saturday. Despite frequently shaking my wrist on Saturday evening to make sure the watch wounded it stopped around between 3-4 AM on Sunday. Sunday morning I manually wounded the watch and wore it all day, plus all day Monday. I just discovered that by Tuesday 8 PM it had stopped again even though it was on my wrist. SOOO ANNOYING!!! I am doing an experiment now - I wound the watch manually (around 25-30 turns) and placed it in a watch box. I want to see when it stops if I dont move it. Just curious if it will even keep the promised power reserve. Maybe it's a manual wound watch and I didnt realize it? LOL Sooo sad...


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## 99problems

Sorry to hear that almeladze. I haven't experienced an issue with the watch while wearing, and mine did keep going for the stated 50 hour power reserve. Sounds like yours may have a bigger issue than just not winding on a winder. 

I just got mine back from my AD yesterday after having his watch maker lubricate the movement to see if that helps to keep it running. I know that a pretty small subset of Zenith Pilot watch owners are on this forum, and an even smaller subset are on this thread saying they've had similar issues with the movt stopping... but, I've never experienced this with any other brand of watch I've owned (over a dozen), nor have I seen it as a topic on their respective forums. I'd hope Zenith would want to look into it if they hear from us owners either directly, or via the AD, but having gone through a service return of my 1st example of the watch twice to no effect, I have zero confidence in their service people. As such, it will be the last Zenith I buy. I hope to keep it if it will start to behave properly, as I do love the look of it, but there are far too many options in the luxury Swiss watch market to have to put up with idiosyncrasy of this type.


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## almeladze

100%! I was thinking of picking up the new El Primero Defy skeleton model next but now will think twice about it. being that the watch is a limited edition model I can barely find any discussions or information on it save reviews of the watch itself  It's the second day that the watch is sitting in a watch box after a full wind. So far it is running. let's see what it does tomorrow around this time of the day.



99problems said:


> Sorry to hear that almeladze. I haven't experienced an issue with the watch while wearing, and mine did keep going for the stated 50 hour power reserve. Sounds like yours may have a bigger issue than just not winding on a winder.
> 
> I just got mine back from my AD yesterday after having his watch maker lubricate the movement to see if that helps to keep it running. I know that a pretty small subset of Zenith Pilot watch owners are on this forum, and an even smaller subset are on this thread saying they've had similar issues with the movt stopping... but, I've never experienced this with any other brand of watch I've owned (over a dozen), nor have I seen it as a topic on their respective forums. I'd hope Zenith would want to look into it if they hear from us owners either directly, or via the AD, but having gone through a service return of my 1st example of the watch twice to no effect, I have zero confidence in their service people. As such, it will be the last Zenith I buy. I hope to keep it if it will start to behave properly, as I do love the look of it, but there are far too many options in the luxury Swiss watch market to have to put up with idiosyncrasy of this type.


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## almeladze

So my watch eventually stopped after sitting in a watch box for approximately 42.5 hrs. I am running the test again, this time I gave its crown a full 30 turns when I manually wound it. I am not sure how many turns wind the mechanism completely, so I want to see how long it lasts with 30 turns instead of 20 to 25.



almeladze said:


> 100%! I was thinking of picking up the new El Primero Defy skeleton model next but now will think twice about it. being that the watch is a limited edition model I can barely find any discussions or information on it save reviews of the watch itself  It's the second day that the watch is sitting in a watch box after a full wind. So far it is running. let's see what it does tomorrow around this time of the day.


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## almeladze

Maybach1 What was the outcome of your problem? Did you get to the bottom of it?



Maybach1 said:


> The orbita kept it wound for 7 days but after 9 it stopped? Maybe the movements lubricant dries quicker? I had dust particles that appeared under my sapphire - it started with 1 and eventually I had 3 particles under the glass. The dealer said they may have gone in there when I unscrewed the crown to wind it- thanks to the winding issues. Maybe having to open the crown so often to wind it dries out lubricant...catch 22 scenario though...I'm almost out of ideas.
> 
> My watch was sent to zenith last week to check 3 things;
> 1- the watch winder issue
> 2- lint/dust particles inside watch
> 3- check water proof after opening it.
> 
> Should take 2-3 weeks for them to come back with an answer but I'm sure I'll hear the same as you did. Just a hunch.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maybach1

Hey all, my watch is still with the AD who sent it to zenith but I haven't received any updates from zenith or my AD. One thing to note is when I called the USA customer service number (they handle tag heuer and other brands) the agent told me it takes 40 turns to manually wind the watch according to his specifications catalogue for that movement. Sucks to hear there are others having the same difficulties. I'm not sure how much faith I have in zenith and their ability to fix such a strange, undocumented and almost taboo problem. 
I'll keep you guys posted. 
One last thing is the guy on the phone said zenith will be off the first two weeks in august and all repairs will be pushed back that timeframe...hopefully the workers don't wear zenith and place their watch on a winder otherwise they may be off indefinitely! Lol


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## TheGiant

Maybach1 said:


> Has anyone encountered any issues with winding this 48mm watch with the in house elite 693? It stays wound when worn and has a great reserve but when I place it on my almost vertical winder (versa) it stops winding after the reserve runs out. I used setting for 650tpd and just upped it to 850tpd. I'll see how it goes.
> I've used the same winder for a befitting soh 46 chrono and a Cartier santos chrono without any issues, ever!
> Any advice, input is greatly appreciated.
> Thanks
> M
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have the type 20 GMT and had no issues on the winder. Perhaps I am stating the obvious but make sure the winder is in the clockwise rotation. Counter clockwise won't wind.

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## Maybach1

TheGiant said:


> I have the type 20 GMT and had no issues on the winder. Perhaps I am stating the obvious but make sure the winder is in the clockwise rotation. Counter clockwise won't wind.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


The movement allows for both counter and clockwise. I can speak for myself and say that I've tried running the watch on bi directional and clockwise both to no avail. What kind of winder are you using and what's your tpd settings? How old is your zenith?

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## DesmoIsland

I have a Bronze cal. 679 on a Wolf with no issues.


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## almeladze

Has nothing to do with it. I've tried all three options - CW, CCW and bi-directional; I have tried various TBDs from 650 all the way up to 1850 but nada... zilch! Makes no difference. It's like the watch is allergic to the watchwinder!



TheGiant said:


> I have the type 20 GMT and had no issues on the winder. Perhaps I am stating the obvious but make sure the winder is in the clockwise rotation. Counter clockwise won't wind.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## almeladze

DesmoIsland, that's a different watch with a different size, different case material and different movement... Has almost no bearing on our problem.



DesmoIsland said:


> I have a Bronze cal. 679 on a Wolf with no issues.


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## DesmoIsland

Also have a GMT USA Edition with no issues.



almeladze said:


> DesmoIsland, that's a different watch with a different size, different case material and different movement... Has almost no bearing on our problem.


----------



## almeladze

USA edition meaning with blue strap with white stitching? Mine is a GMT version (1903 kind with a bundstrap) also purchased in the US but has all kinds of problems. Looks like you have better luck with your Zeniths than we do!



DesmoIsland said:


> Also have a GMT USA Edition with no issues.


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## almeladze

So I ran the experiment again. I manually wound the watch. This time I counted the turns of the crown to 30 (having read that it takes about 40 turns to wind this mechanism all the way) and placed it in the watch box. Much to my surprise the watch ran over 57 hours before stopping. SOO WEIRD!



almeladze said:


> So my watch eventually stopped after sitting in a watch box for approximately 42.5 hrs. I am running the test again, this time I gave its crown full 30 turns when I manually wound it. I am not sure how many turns wind the mechanism completely, so I want to see how long it lasts with 30 turns instead of 20 to 25.


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## 99problems

almeladze said:


> DesmoIsland, that's a different watch with a different size, different case material and different movement... Has almost no bearing on our problem.


I have that same Bronze watch, with the same issue as others reporting the watch not winding on a winder. Interestingly, like DesmoIsland, I too use a Wolf winder, and all 5 of mine yield the same result. There is an issue with these Pilots it seems, but obviously not for everyone. I had the 1903 GMT, and had no such issue while I owned it. My AD had his watch maker lubricate the watch in the event that was the issue, but after 5 days, watch has stopped yet again... Next step i think is to contact the NA rep for Zenith and see what he proposed to do to resolve this issue. I have no faith in the service center as I've stated before. Maybe I just need to part ways with this watch and move on from Zenith all together. More aggravation than its worth at this point.


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## almeladze

I was so happy with my 57 hour power run that I decided to wear the watch again yesterday. I set it in the morning (after it had stopped overnight), gave it a 5 turn winding and figured the rest would happen on the wrist (since I have a habit of often shaking my wrist when I wear hefty watches). I wore the watch for several hrs (from about 10 AM till about 2 PM), then removed it in the afternoon for about 3 hrs and set it down; then put it back on and wore it till about 11:30 PM/midnight. I was sure that after almost the full day's wearing and a lot of shaking the watch would be fine till the morning. Much to my surprise it stopped at about 2:15 AM. My guess is that either this watch really takes a long time to wind which is why neither watch winders nor hand shaking manages to keep it wound and the only time I get a full 2 days' run is on a manual wind (30 turns or more), or something is really off here.



almeladze said:


> So I ran the experiment again. I manually wound the watch. This time I counted the turns of the crown to 30 (having read that it takes about 40 turns to wind this mechanism all the way) and placed it in the watch box. Much to my surprise the watch ran over 57 hours before stopping. SOO WEIRD!


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## Maybach1

In a way I'm glad I started this thread but on the other hand it kind of sucks that this aesthetically beautiful piece of time can't wind properly. From what I've been reading it seems the 1903 (black camo/combat version) winds better, perhaps it's a newer version? Zenith secretly realized their problem and fixed it? If anyone has the direct contact for a zenith rep in North America or worldwide, please share and most importantly to all owners experiencing the same issue we should unite and contact zenith to see what can be done to fix it. Let's not let zenith become the apple of watches (known issues are dismissed and not acknowledged). Thanks M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99problems

My AD is contacting his Rep today about it. we were texting back and forth last night, and he basically said to me "I'm hoping there is something else in the shop you'd like it its place". I do love the look, but i'm not willing to go through another 2 month return to service for no fault found and more of the same. I honestly don't know what the Rep could offer at this point, but we'll see if anything is offered at all.


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## DesmoIsland

almeladze said:


> USA edition meaning with blue strap with white stitching? Mine is a GMT version (1903 kind with a bundstrap) also purchased in the US but has all kinds of problems. Looks like you have better luck with your Zeniths than we do!


Yes, the North America Edition was a 2016 50 piece limited; Titanium/Black DLC Case, Blue Dial, Blue Alligator.


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## almeladze

Beautiful watch! That is the model that got me interested in these pilot watches but I have a blue themed watch already (and another one whose black dial looks like blue) and opted for the 1903 with a beige bundstrap. Subsequently I saw the same watch with Rolling Stones dial and black bundstrap. Would have loved to own it but alas! Enjoy the blue beauty.



DesmoIsland said:


> Yes, the North America Edition was a 2016 50 piece limited; Titanium/Black DLC Case, Blue Dial, Blue Alligator.
> 
> View attachment 12445173


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## Hartmut Richter

Maybach1 said:


> Let's not let zenith become the apple of watches (known issues are dismissed and not acknowledged)


"It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

(Oh, wait a moment - that was Microsoft, wasn't it?! :think

Hartmut Richter


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## almeladze

Maybach1, I am glad you started it too! Otherwise, I would have gone senile with my little problem. Great reference to apple. I hate that evil corporation! In another live we could have been best friends 



Maybach1 said:


> In a way I'm glad I started this thread but on the other hand it kind of sucks that this aesthetically beautiful piece of time can't wind properly. From what I've been reading it seems the 1903 (black camo/combat version) winds better, perhaps it's a newer version? Zenith secretly realized their problem and fixed it? If anyone has the direct contact for a zenith rep in North America or worldwide, please share and most importantly to all owners experiencing the same issue we should unite and contact zenith to see what can be done to fix it. Let's not let zenith become the apple of watches (known issues are dismissed and not acknowledged). Thanks M
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## almeladze

Hartmut, the best you could do under the circumstances was to lash out at Microsoft? LOL Wait, how touch responsive is the screen of your mac? Oh snap, I forgot, apple's still working on a touch-screen laptop LOLOL



Hartmut Richter said:


> "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"
> 
> (Oh, wait a moment - that was Microsoft, wasn't it?! :think
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Hartmut Richter

As far as I'm concerned, they're all as bad as each other.

Some computer industry acronyms (from the 1990s!):

APPLE: Arrogant Product Placement Loses Equity
MACINTOSH: Most Applications Crash, If Not, The Operating System Hangs
MICROSOFT: Most Intelligent Customers RealiseOur Software Only Fools Teenagers*
WINDOWS: Will Install Needless Data On Whole System

(*Alternative interpretation: Most Idiots Can't Realise: Obsolete Software Organisation, Flawed Technology)

But then, as Confucius said: "In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?!"

Hartmut Richter


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## almeladze

Great  Now what do we do with our flawed watched? Mine stopped again at around 5:20 AM in a watch winder. And that's having spend all day on my wrist. I am getting more and more annoyed with this situation 



Hartmut Richter said:


> As far as I'm concerned, they're all as bad as each other.
> 
> Some computer industry acronyms (from the 1990s!):
> 
> APPLE: Arrogant Product Placement Loses Equity
> MACINTOSH: Most Applications Crash, If Not, The Operating System Hangs
> MICROSOFT: Most Intelligent Customers RealiseOur Software Only Fools Teenagers*
> WINDOWS: Will Install Needless Data On Whole System
> 
> (*Alternative interpretation: Most Idiots Can't Realise: Obsolete Software Organisation, Flawed Technology)
> 
> But then, as Confucius said: "In a world without walls and fences, who needs Windows and Gates?!"
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## 99problems

almeladze said:


> Great  Now what do we do with our flawed watched? Mine stopped again at around 5:20 AM in a watch winder. And that's having spend all day on my wrist. I am getting more and more annoyed with this situation


Great question. I'm afraid I decided to part ways with mine (and Zenith as a brand). My AD was good enough to take the watch back to swap for something else of similar value. I think he is as tired of dealing with the thing as I am. Best of luck to those that are trying to keep the watch, and actually have it work on a winder and keep time using the rotor. Hopefully Zenith service can sort it out for each of you where they couldn't with mine.


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## almeladze

What did you get, if you dont mind me asking?



99problems said:


> Great question. I'm afraid I decided to part ways with mine (and Zenith as a brand). My AD was good enough to take the watch back to swap for something else of similar value. I think he is as tired of dealing with the thing as I am. Best of luck to those that are trying to keep the watch, and actually have it work on a winder and keep time using the rotor. Hopefully Zenith service can sort it out for each of you where they couldn't with mine.


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## Maybach1

99problems- I'm sorry to hear about your loss but I hope you get something that won't cease to work.
I've found this website http://m.zenith-watches.com/en_en_m/

I selected the customer service option and sent them an email detailing the issue and referencing this thread. I couldn't find a telephone number but if someone has one, please pass it along. For now I encourage anyone who has the same issue to voice your concerns to zenith on the above website. 
Good luck and I will keep you posted when And if I hear back

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99problems

Maybach1 said:


> 99problems- I'm sorry to hear about your loss but I hope you get something that won't cease to work.
> I've found this website Zenith - Swiss Luxury Watches & Manufacture since 1865
> 
> I selected the customer service option and sent them an email detailing the issue and referencing this thread. I couldn't find a telephone number but if someone has one, please pass it along. For now I encourage anyone who has the same issue to voice your concerns to zenith on the above website.
> Good luck and I will keep you posted when And if I hear back
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't want to derail this thread with talk of other brand watches, so I'll PM that bit. But my AD did hear back from his rep who asked to have the 2nd bronze Pilot sent overnight to them to see it (I presume to the service center). In his conversation with the AD he apparently mentioned that there had been some defective rotors they know about dating back to a 2014 production run ( 3 years ago now, but ok?) and the presumption was maybe BOTH watches I was sold had them? I may have an opportunity to speak to the Rep if they call me, so I'll see if he gives me any more specific info. The other watch i'm looking to exchange it for is still inbound. To be honest at this point, I'm not sure what it would take for me to keep the Zenith. In theory now they get it back, go "Whooops, that's the faulty rotor we thought. Now that we swap that bit, you should be A-OK"... Cool, except you had my 1st watch at the service center over 3 months total on 2 separate occasions with "No issue found" and resent to me. Your PRODUCTION set up then also used a known faulty rotor in putting both those movements together in the 1st place without removing them from stock and placing in 2 watches produced in 2016. I've lost faith in the brand I guess is what I'm getting at.


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## almeladze

Maybach1, did you hear back from customer service?



Maybach1 said:


> 99problems- I'm sorry to hear about your loss but I hope you get something that won't cease to work.
> I've found this website Zenith - Swiss Luxury Watches & Manufacture since 1865
> 
> I selected the customer service option and sent them an email detailing the issue and referencing this thread. I couldn't find a telephone number but if someone has one, please pass it along. For now I encourage anyone who has the same issue to voice your concerns to zenith on the above website.
> Good luck and I will keep you posted when And if I hear back
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## almeladze

I kinds always assumed Zenith was a bit dysfunctional. Their watches always looked yesteryear to me, dating back to early 2000s. The reason I picked up this watch was because I saw their revamped designs and read up how they've changed and updated the company. I hadnt looked at them in ages and all of a sudden they had these new and contempo designs... I guess some things never change. Although I do love their new Defy 21 El Primero in skeleton  It will be a dilemma fr me what to do 



99problems said:


> Don't want to derail this thread with talk of other brand watches, so I'll PM that bit. But my AD did hear back from his rep who asked to have the 2nd bronze Pilot sent overnight to them to see it (I presume to the service center). In his conversation with the AD he apparently mentioned that there had been some defective rotors they know about dating back to a 2014 production run ( 3 years ago now, but ok?) and the presumption was maybe BOTH watches I was sold had them? I may have an opportunity to speak to the Rep if they call me, so I'll see if he gives me any more specific info. The other watch i'm looking to exchange it for is still inbound. To be honest at this point, I'm not sure what it would take for me to keep the Zenith. In theory now they get it back, go "Whooops, that's the faulty rotor we thought. Now that we swap that bit, you should be A-OK"... Cool, except you had my 1st watch at the service center over 3 months total on 2 separate occasions with "No issue found" and resent to me. Your PRODUCTION set up then also used a known faulty rotor in putting both those movements together in the 1st place without removing them from stock and placing in 2 watches produced in 2016. I've lost faith in the brand I guess is what I'm getting at.


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## Hartmut Richter

Well, fancy how tastes differ. I personally have always likedthem becausethey have always had some "normal" looking watches in their lineup, not the industrial looking monsters that some companies have churned out in recent years (Richard Mille, JLC AMVOX series.....). At the same time, their "normal" line also has a certain elegance in many specimens IMO, not like Rolex where even the "Datejust" looks a hint sporty. But then, there's no accounting for taste..... ;-)

Hartmut Richter


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## almeladze

I know that Richard Mille is despised by most. Actually, I have yet to find a person who likes them. Rafa wears them because he gets paid to do so... I have seen once my CPA, who normally wears a yellow gold perpetual calendar PP wear one much to my surprise. Having said that I have a soft spot for skeletons and actually happen to like RMs. JLC has certainly lost its elegance over the past decade. I am not a big fan of the AMVOXes even though I adore the brand. Rolexes are Toyotas of the watch world to me - reliable, maintain value, no super watches (like tourbillons), crap design and easily recognizable... As for Zenith, yes, ever-since I got into watches they had a normal look albeit a little dated plus some grotesque-looking pieces I am compelled to mention: https://www.chrono24.com/zenith/def...ograph-pvd-titanium--18k-gold--id5417265.htm; https://www.chrono24.com/zenith/def...h-mens-watch-960528402121r642--id6814884.htm; and mac daddy of them all https://www.chrono24.com/zenith/defy-xtreme-zero-g--id5613079.htm. But them again, I assume there is a market for them if Zenith still maintains them in their lineup 



Hartmut Richter said:


> Well, fancy how tastes differ. I personally have always likedthem becausethey have always had some "normal" looking watches in their lineup, not the industrial looking monsters that some companies have churned out in recent years (Richard Mille, JLC AMVOX series.....). At the same time, their "normal" line also has a certain elegance in many specimens IMO, not like Rolex where even the "Datejust" looks a hint sporty. But then, there's no accounting for taste..... ;-)
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Maybach1

almeladze said:


> Maybach1, did you hear back from customer service?


I received a call from zenith service centre acknowledging receipt of watch and the following:
1- lint under the crystal- they said was due to the dual being loose.
2- winding issues- they said was also potentially due to the dial being loose BUT after insisting on other users similar issues they will test the watch. Who knows what will come out of the tests they do? A very nice fellow on this forum has contacted zenith for me and will ensure they perform adequate testing and fix the issue. I am now hopeful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maybach1

Desmolsland mentioned that the elite 693 has gone through several updates since it's release. One of those updates includes a heavier rotor which may be the root of our issues. He contacted zenith for me and they will hopefully put in that update for my movement so it functions properly. I will let you guys know once I get the piece back from service. Great community and thanks to all! Sent from my iPhone lol 


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## WTSP

This has been a very interesting thread, despite it reflecting badly on Zenith. The level of information exchange and collaboration is one of the reasons I feel that Zenith is a unique brand: it attracts a more engaged type of watch enthusiast. 

As for my own experience, I'm glad to report that my Zenith Class Elite HW 650 has no automatic rotor problems.


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## Hartmut Richter

Glad to hear it. As for the issues, I also think that it's important that these things aren't brushed under the carpet. Threads such as these give the companies important feedback. At the same time, the true nature of a company shows itself not when selling with little effort to satisfied customers but rather when facing massive technical and PR problems and dealing with extremely irate customers. I only hope that Zenith will learn the right lessons from this, get the problem solved AND still maintain people like you as customers.

Hartmut Richter


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## almeladze

I am planning to bring my watch to the seller in 2 days. Glad to hear that somebody identified the rotor problem. I will make sure to point it out to the guy. I am not too sure if I should have them send the watch to Zenith or have it repaired elsewhere (e.g., Torneau). I guess, I'll hear what he recommends and what his arguments will be and then make a decision. Will post an update.



Hartmut Richter said:


> Glad to hear it. As for the issues, I also think that it's important that these things aren't brushed under the carpet. Threads such as these give the companies important feedback. At the same time, the true nature of a company shows itself not when selling with little effort to satisfied customers but rather when facing massive technical and PR problems and dealing with extremely irate customers. I only hope that Zenith will learn the right lessons from this, get the problem solved AND still maintain people like you as customers.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


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## Maybach1

I just received my watch back yesterday. It was delivered to my AD in a great looking Zenith sporty travel case which I get to keep. 
As for the watch, both dealer and zenith advised me to manually wind the watch (30-40 crown turns should suffice). This will keep the watch fully charged. Next they said it's imperative I use the 650tpd/bidirectional setting on my winder. This should do the trick. I'm very skeptical and hesitant but I have no choice. The watch was placed on a winder last night around 20:00 after wearing it for a good 5 hours and manually winding it as prescribed.
The rotor on my watch sounds a lot smoother than it did before I sent it. According to zenith all they did was fix my loose dial...they ran tests and it appears the watch is properly functioning. 
The final and true test will take place on my winder by Friday if it's still running on my winder I will stay a loyal zenith fan. I'll keep everyone updated by then.
Thanks!
M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 99problems

Best of luck to you Maybach1. I hope for your sake the issue was resolved. I never did hear anything from the Zenith Rep after having mine overnighted to them for inspection, etc. and my AD giving them my info. But as Mr. Richter aptly stated "the true nature of a company shows itself not when selling with little effort to satisfied customers but rather when facing massive technical and PR problems and dealing with extremely irate customers".. And while I wouldn't say I qualify as extremely irate, the experience definitely did inform my decision to move on from Zenith as a brand. For those that stay, enjoy your Pilots!


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## Maybach1

It's now almost 60 hours since I placed my watch on the winder. I have the setting at 650tpd bi directional turning. I'm using a vertical versa winder...cheap but it covers all the tpd my various watches need.
So far the pilot is still keeping accurate time and wound! I'm gonna keep her on there a few more days to confirm because I heard someone here saying after 7 days the watch stopped. Maybe my loose dial was the issue? I'm hopeful this will keep me happy with zenith an my pilot. Let you guys know by Sunday 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maybach1

Still wound on the winder. I'm excited and nervous all at once...it's like watching the season finale of game of thrones on my iPhone with 10% battery! 


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## almeladze

Maybach1, I did arrive at 30 turns to wind the watch manually through trial and error (25 turns only gave me around 42 hrs of power reserve, whereas 30 turns went for almost 54 hrs). However, 650 tpd does surprise me. I tried everything from 650 to 1800 cw, ccw, bi-directional... you name it. Anyway, I am glad to hear your watch is working now. Pls remind me, did your watch only have a problem winding on teh winder or on the wrist as well?

Rotor noise - mine makes a purring sound too. I wonder if lubricating the watch may reduce it. Although I remember reading somewhere in this thread that someone did have the watch lubricated (in the attempt to identify the problem) but the problem remained unsolved. Loose dial sounds strange to me but who knows.

Overall I think that Zenith fixed your watch but is continuing to pretend that there is no problem with this model.



Maybach1 said:


> I just received my watch back yesterday. It was delivered to my AD in a great looking Zenith sporty travel case which I get to keep.
> As for the watch, both dealer and zenith advised me to manually wind the watch (30-40 crown turns should suffice). This will keep the watch fully charged. Next they said it's imperative I use the 650tpd/bidirectional setting on my winder. This should do the trick. I'm very skeptical and hesitant but I have no choice. The watch was placed on a winder last night around 20:00 after wearing it for a good 5 hours and manually winding it as prescribed.
> The rotor on my watch sounds a lot smoother than it did before I sent it. According to zenith all they did was fix my loose dial...they ran tests and it appears the watch is properly functioning.
> The final and true test will take place on my winder by Friday if it's still running on my winder I will stay a loyal zenith fan. I'll keep everyone updated by then.
> Thanks!
> M
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maybach1

Almeladze, my watch is winding and keeping time now since last Tuesday or Wednesday. I finally took it off the winder today - I couldn't bare to look at that gorgeous watch not being on my wrist. I do think zenith fixed my issue. 
The loose dial may have been the issue or the lubrication? I did not get a note from zenith clarifying what they actually did to my watch but the lint was off my crystal and it's flawless.
In fact zenith will ship me a hard copy of my instruction manual because I was clumsy and lost it during my move.
Overall I am very satisfied and will keep this beautiful watch. 
I recommend you bring yours in for a checkup and see what they can do. You might be pleasantly surprised like I was.
Godbless 
M


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maybach1

One more thing, my watch was running perfectly on my wrist so perhaps the loose dial can make sense. The winder turns at in steady and repetitive way so if the loose dial obstructed the winding mechanism, my sudden and jerking wrist movements -no pun intended- may have allowed the rotor to turn and wind whereas the winder wasn't strong enough. Just my opinion based on the limited knowledge inside my watch case's movement.


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## almeladze

Thank you Maybach1. Really glad for you! I love the looks of it as well. Mine actually gets a lot of stares when I wear it. I soooo miss it. BTW, mine came with an El Primero manual which was weird. Then again, I have yet to buy a watch which came with a matching manual (and this is all from ADs!). My re-seller told me that they sent my watch to Zenith as well. Where did you get yours serviced, if you know? Springfield, NJ?



Maybach1 said:


> Almeladze, my watch is winding and keeping time now since last Tuesday or Wednesday. I finally took it off the winder today - I couldn't bare to look at that gorgeous watch not being on my wrist. I do think zenith fixed my issue.
> The loose dial may have been the issue or the lubrication? I did not get a note from zenith clarifying what they actually did to my watch but the lint was off my crystal and it's flawless.
> In fact zenith will ship me a hard copy of my instruction manual because I was clumsy and lost it during my move.
> Overall I am very satisfied and will keep this beautiful watch.
> I recommend you bring yours in for a checkup and see what they can do. You might be pleasantly surprised like I was.
> Godbless
> M
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## almeladze

Guys, so I finally received my watch back. Zenith seems to have taken care of the problem. Although my AD had to fight with them and show this thread discussion... I wore the watch on my wrist for about a week to 10 days and it worked fine (didnt try it on the winder). But guess what, they returned the watch with a dirty sapphire crystal. there was lint and oily stains on the inside. So I had to return it back to my dealer to send it to Zenith now for cleaning. I will be without the watch for another couple of month. Sooo frustrating!


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## almeladze

Finally, finally I received the watch back from Zenith after the New Year's 2018. Amazing - from September to January I was out of possession of the watch. But after 2 tours at the NJ authorized repair center it is working well and the crystal lens is clean and clear. Alleluia! I am sure if the service center was in NY, it would have taken them one attempt as opposed to two, but that's New Jersey for ya!


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## 99problems

I just popped in here to see if other owners did finally get this sorted. Funny story, after parting with mine and moving on, about a month passed after I'd sent the watch to Zenith, my AD told me that after a couple phone calls and many tests, the Zenith repair folks did in fact manage to replicate the issue of the watch stopping on the winder... but had no idea why it was happening at that point. This dates back to prob Sept/Oct time frame. Hopefully that lead to a 'real' fix, not the excuse of nothing wrong, service the movement, send back. Hope yours runs smoothly Almeladze, now that its clean too


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## Maybach1

Hey all, wanted to give an update. After receiving the watch from zenith, i places it on a winder for a week to test it out. Turns out the watch had an amazing power reserve. 

I eventually wore it less often and left it on the winder for over a week...guess what...it stopped!!!

I initially thought it was my cheap winder so I bought a wolf winder 2.7 viceroy. That didn’t help.

I was so upset I had to get rid of the watch. Walking by it everyday knowing there was something mechanically wrong just didn’t sit well with me. Besides I hate having to wind auto watches, I rely on my winder for ease of use and this watch was a nuisance.

I sold my watch at a loss because after sending it to zenith and confirming all was fixed, I felt I can’t trust this brand anymore. Had I been the only victim perhaps I might’ve reconsidered but too many of us dishes thousands on these timepieces only to be played for fools.


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## Maybach1

*dished thousands $$


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## Maybach1

Essentially the watch worked flawlessly when I got it back from zenith and it kept running longer on the watch winder ( depending on how wound it was, it ran 7 days on winder). But when the watch stayed on the winder longer than a week, it stopped.

I contacted zenith and they offered to look at it again but I didn’t want to bother knowing they would:
1- have the watch for a few months
2- say that the watch runs perfectly (true) and nothing wrong mechanically.

I felt like I didn’t need this headache of thinking “is this watch going to work this time around?” This shouldn’t be a thought coming into the owner of a +$5000 watch. Shame on zenith for not putting more Effort into this problem and fixing it. I can vouch 100% that I am never owning another zenith, no matter how nice they look. 


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## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the update and I'm rather sorry that it never worked out for you. I wonder whether you got a "Monday" watch as we would call them in Germany. I am sure that there are plenty of Cal. 682 owners out there with perfectly working watches so I would think that you just got unlucky and received a dud. However, I don't doubt your statements and I am somewhat appalled that Zenith didn't solve the problem by just offering you another identical watch! You can try to fix a watch once, twice at most but after that, it's time to bin it and send something that you know works.

The alternative would have been to test the winder - maybe they should have asked you to send it in and tested it?!

Hartmut Richter


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## 99problems

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thanks for the update and I'm rather sorry that it never worked out for you. I wonder whether you got a "Monday" watch as we would call them in Germany. I am sure that there are plenty of Cal. 682 owners out there with perfectly working watches so I would think that you just got unlucky and received a dud. However, I don't doubt your statements and I am somewhat appalled that Zenith didn't solve the problem by just offering you another identical watch! You can try to fix a watch once, twice at most but after that, it's time to bin it and send something that you know works.
> 
> The alternative would have been to test the winder - maybe they should have asked you to send it in and tested it?!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Sadly mine went in for "repair" twice, then my AD swapped it... But guess what? 2nd Brand new one did the same thing. They have an issue with that movement, plain and simple. I'm sure there are some out there that don't have an issue, but doesn't bring much comfort to those owners who ran into it. Sadly I feel the same as Maybach1, Zenith has some very beautiful pieces, but I'll never buy another one. I was very fortunate to have a rockstar AD that took the 2nd watch back and gave me full credit to swap for something else.


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## Maybach1

I understand my watch may have been a “Monday” watch. I also believe their inventory was stocked with a bad case of Monday’s. Honestly, some owners have it as their primary watch and/or rotate their watches so frequently that they may never notice this issue. For someone who owns multiple high end watches, there is absolutely no excuse for this.
As far as taking the winder for a checkup, I would have to send them about 4-5 of them because none of them worked to keep this Monday watch wound. All the same winders kept my Cartier, breitling and rolexes (still winding them all). As we say here in Canada, if everyone sees a polar bear but you see fox...you may want to get your eyes checked (lol ok I made that expression up) but you get the point.

As stated by 99problems, zenith isn’t interested in fixing or recognizing the issue. Sad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WTSP

99problems said:


> Sadly mine went in for "repair" twice, then my AD swapped it... But guess what? 2nd Brand new one did the same thing. They have an issue with that movement, plain and simple. I'm sure there are some out there that don't have an issue, but doesn't bring much comfort to those owners who ran into it. Sadly I feel the same as Maybach1, Zenith has some very beautiful pieces, but I'll never buy another one. I was very fortunate to have a rockstar AD that took the 2nd watch back and gave me full credit to swap for something else.


Sad to hear these stories. Brands should learn that they can pick up a buyer with a first sale, but the only way to keep them and sell more watches to a loyal buying in the future is to provide proper servicing. It's not good to hear that Zenith can't support its products.

On a separate note, what will you be swapping to?


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## 99problems

WTSP said:


> Sad to hear these stories. Brands should learn that they can pick up a buyer with a first sale, but the only way to keep them and sell more watches to a loyal buying in the future is to provide proper servicing. It's not good to hear that Zenith can't support its products.
> 
> On a separate note, what will you be swapping to?


Mine ended up swapping into one of the new Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra 150M models, the Steel and Sedna gold version. Totally different watch, but I'd also recently picked up a Bell & Ross GMT that filled in for the occasions that I'd previously used the Zenith bronze pilot for.


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## WTSP

99problems said:


> Mine ended up swapping into one of the new Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra 150M models, the Steel and Sedna gold version. Totally different watch, but I'd also recently picked up a Bell & Ross GMT that filled in for the occasions that I'd previously used the Zenith bronze pilot for.


Cool, I wasn't familiar with Sedna gold. Interesting. I especially like the AT with the rubber strap.


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## almeladze

It does boss  I am loving it. In the summer wear it w/o the bundstrap and in the winter with!



99problems said:


> I just popped in here to see if other owners did finally get this sorted. Funny story, after parting with mine and moving on, about a month passed after I'd sent the watch to Zenith, my AD told me that after a couple phone calls and many tests, the Zenith repair folks did in fact manage to replicate the issue of the watch stopping on the winder... but had no idea why it was happening at that point. This dates back to prob Sept/Oct time frame. Hopefully that lead to a 'real' fix, not the excuse of nothing wrong, service the movement, send back. Hope yours runs smoothly Almeladze, now that its clean too


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## almeladze

Maybach1, responding to your 3 posts above, when I got my watch fixed my dealer told me that the printout of this chat/forum was of great help for him to push zenith to fix my timepiece. Having said that, I completely agree, these things should not be happening when you pay a premium for what otherwise costs a lot less. But my experience has been the same with Bvlgari. Anything and everything I ever bought from those schmucks falls apart and they're real koks anout servicing their own products.

As for the watch itself, all of my watches stop every so often on the winder. Plus I travel a lot and every so ofter I have to put the watches in a safe. Naturally, they stop and distort my understanding of how they last on the winder. My winder is also a cheap Heiden purchased on Amazon which itself needs servicing a couple of times a year. But since I got it for free and servicing it costs me pennies, I am not complaining... ADs do recommend manually winding watches every so often anyway. But all in all, I am with you. If I knew there was an issue with teh watch for sure, it'd bother me as well.



Maybach1 said:


> Essentially the watch worked flawlessly when I got it back from zenith and it kept running longer on the watch winder ( depending on how wound it was, it ran 7 days on winder). But when the watch stayed on the winder longer than a week, it stopped.
> 
> I contacted zenith and they offered to look at it again but I didn't want to bother knowing they would:
> 1- have the watch for a few months
> 2- say that the watch runs perfectly (true) and nothing wrong mechanically.
> 
> I felt like I didn't need this headache of thinking "is this watch going to work this time around?" This shouldn't be a thought coming into the owner of a +$5000 watch. Shame on zenith for not putting more Effort into this problem and fixing it. I can vouch 100% that I am never owning another zenith, no matter how nice they look.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## almeladze

99problems, aside from the mechanical problems with the watch, please share with us your experience of owning/wearing a bronze watch. they're really coming in now. IWC started making them for one. I am curious about the experience with this metal - how scratch resistant is it? did it have a tendency to develop patina? etc. Thnx!



99problems said:


> Mine ended up swapping into one of the new Omega Seamaster Aqua Terra 150M models, the Steel and Sedna gold version. Totally different watch, but I'd also recently picked up a Bell & Ross GMT that filled in for the occasions that I'd previously used the Zenith bronze pilot for.


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## Longjean

Not exactly a thread hijack but as I have posted here before I will repeat that my Class Elite Dual Time with the 682 movement has never wound on my wrist. Took it to a local watch repairer after I bought it as NOS for a full service but it still would not wind. I returned it to him but he said it was working perfectly on his winder.

I have been winding it manually ever since and the winding-works seem to be very robust since no harm appears to have been done.

I have contacted the UK Zenith service centre about the problem but received a standard reply asking me to send it to them for a full service . I am reluctant to spend £400 and not have it fixed which was the experience of those above

I have searched the internet for a solution and found suggestions that the rotor is too light and/or that the mainspring is too strong for the rotor to wind. What I have not found is someone who has received an explanation, in writing, from Zenith either admitting that there is a problem or what the fix is and I am not holding my breath on that one.

The ironic thing is that I am wearing a Zenith Respirator x today, which was serviced last year, it winds and runs perfectly. It will be 50years old this year (cal 2552 PC ) but I hear you say that that movement was acquired when they bought Movado so no credit to Zenith!


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## sempervivens

The cal. 2552 PC has nothing to do with Movado, it is a Zenith movement, developed in their Ponts-de-Martel workshop by the former Martel watch co. As in fact was the whole series of cal. 25xx movements from ca. 1960 until 1975. These are indeed excellent automatic movements, I never experienced a problem with the automatic winding. 

I never heard about this problem with the Elite before (except from you), however I did experience similar problems with ETA 2892-2, also an ultra-thin movement from the 1990's.


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## Longjean

Thanks, I got Movado and Martel mixed up . Memory not so good, I had been reading a Movado book this week so that is my excuse and I am sticking to it.


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## sempervivens

The problem remains and I'm sorry I cannot help. As for my eta 2892-2 chronograph, I've tried changing the mainspring, but it didn't make a difference.


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## Hartmut Richter

ETA 2892-2 chronograph?! Do you mean the ETA 2894?

As for Movado, they did have movements used by Zenith: the high beat Cal. 405 (day-date) and 408 (date only). But Movado also had access to and used the 25X2 series, e.g. in some of the "Museum" watches.

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

ETA 2892-2 with a chronograph module. I'm thinking now the problem may be the reverser wheel.

As for Movado, they did use the Zenith cal 25xx series, but not in the 'Museum' watches.


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> ETA 2892-2 with a chronograph module. I'm thinking now the problem may be the reverser wheel.
> 
> As for Movado, they did use the Zenith cal 25xx series, but not in the 'Museum' watches.


That must be a different module to the ETA 2894 then (possibly by Dubois-Depraz).

As for the Museum watch, there is a specimen in Brunner/Pfeiffer-Belli (page 301) which is a Museum watch with date and which has a Cal. 2552 C. I can only presume that this is the Zenith 2552 C since Movado didn't have such a calibre. Unless the specifications in that book are erroneous.....

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Interesting. Most mechanical Zenith Movado Museum watches have a Zenith cal 1730.

However there also exist a few Zenith Movado Museum watches with date. These are rare models.

I found this one with movement code 388. We don't have that code in our movement list yet. It could be a cal. 2552 C.

Some further searching revealed this one in 14 K gold which does have a cal. 2552 C. So I think model code 388 refers to cal. 2552 C. I would recommend adding it to the list of model codes.

Some more searching also revealed an automatic version with date here. This has movement code 491/496, which is probably based on ETA 2892.

And yet another here has a Movado cal. 408.

That's all I could find.

I conclude that your source is correct and there are some rather rare Zenith Movado Museum watches around with cal. 2552 C.

Is the one in Brunner/Pfeiffer-Belli also in gold?


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## WTSP

Longjean said:


> Not exactly a thread hijack but as I have posted here before I will repeat that my Class Elite Dual Time with the 682 movement has never wound on my wrist. Took it to a local watch repairer after I bought it as NOS for a full service but it still would not wind. I returned it to him but he said it was working perfectly on his winder.
> 
> I have been winding it manually ever since and the winding-works seem to be very robust since no harm appears to have been done.
> 
> I have contacted the UK Zenith service centre about the problem but received a standard reply asking me to send it to them for a full service . I am reluctant to spend £400 and not have it fixed which was the experience of those above
> 
> I have searched the internet for a solution and found suggestions that the rotor is too light and/or that the mainspring is too strong for the rotor to wind. What I have not found is someone who has received an explanation, in writing, from Zenith either admitting that there is a problem or what the fix is and I am not holding my breath on that one.
> 
> The ironic thing is that I am wearing a Zenith Respirator x today, which was serviced last year, it winds and runs perfectly. It will be 50years old this year (cal 2552 PC ) but I hear you say that that movement was acquired when they bought Movado so no credit to Zenith!


That model has a transparent case back right? When the watch isn't on your wrist can you make the rotor turn when moving it around?


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## Hartmut Richter

That page in that book actually has two such watches: a ladies' model with Cal. 1110 "form" movement (presumably also by Zenith) without date and a gents' model with date in the "sun" with Cal. 2552 C. The ladies' model is in white gold, the gents' model in yellow gold. What is dubious is the date indication: 1975 for both watches.

I'll add the calibre code to out list. Thanks for doing the research.

Hartmut Richter


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## Longjean

WTSP said:


> That model has a transparent case back right? When the watch isn't on your wrist can you make the rotor turn when moving it around?


Unfortunately it has a solid steel back.


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## Longjean

Hartmut Richter said:


> That page in that book actually has two such watches: a ladies' model with Cal. 1110 "form" movement (presumably also by Zenith) without date and a gents' model with date in the "sun" with Cal. 2552 C. The ladies' model is in white gold, the gents' model in yellow gold. What is dubious is the date indication: 1975 for both watches.
> 
> I'll add the calibre code to out list. Thanks for doing the research.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Here is the movement used in that gold museum " date in the dot" watch.

2572c " kein Sek " Was used 1972-1978 in the "date in the dot"

Zenith cal.2310 = Movado cal. 2320 was also used in the Museum.


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## Longjean

By 1980 Movado mechanical movements were no longer being made but stock movements were still being used in the more expensive range.
In the 1960s/70s the Movado movements from Zenith were given the same cal. No. that Zenith used, here is an exception (bought as an ebauche )

M 2320 = Z 2310


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## Hartmut Richter

That is very interesting! It would mean that Brunner/Pfeiffer-Belli are wrong in their exact calibre designation, but no the date. Does yours also have the ".388" as a reference? If so, I can change the indication in our code listing from 2552 C to "2572 C minus seconds indication".

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Longjean said:


> Here is the movement used in that gold museum " date in the dot" watch.
> 
> 2572c " kein Sek " Was used 1972-1978 in the "date in the dot"


Interesting, where is that information from? A Movado book? But how come the picture you have attached to this is actually a 2552 C (and not 2572 C)?

@ Hartmut: note that the 388 designation which I first found (see here) was on a Zenith Movado co-signed watch. So it is not a Movado code.

The actual picture of a cal 2552 C I found (see here) was in a 14 K gold Movado watch. Inside the case is a Movado code '254-224-001'.

Still I agree now that 388 is the Zenith code for 2572 C 'without seconds', as I have found an example on a German forum here.

The question then remains: what is the code for cal 2552 C? Perhaps the few Museum watches with cal 2552 C didn't have a model code, because they were made before 1973.


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## Longjean

The Movado cal. 275 = z 2552C. 1971-1983
cal. 257 = z 2562C. “”””””””””””
cal. 366 = z 2572C “”””””””””””

The case reference during this period is similar to that of Zenith ie. xx xxxx xxx 
So the gold cases in the museum watches illustrated would begin 30 for yellow gold and 31 for the ladies’ white gold one.
The final three numbers were the cal.No, so 275 for the yellow gold and 150 for the ladies’ or 154 if it was sold in the USA.

The 254 224 001

254= cal.No.
224= 14K round dial
001= non sapphire, non faceted.
Used 1966- 1971

Existing problems are: 254 I cannot find this cal.
1971 - 1983 nine digit number moved from the inside to outside of the case back so the 1975 date on the museum watches indicates watches with numbers on the outside.

movadolookup.wordpress.com

Sorry I cannot post a proper link since my computer is kaputt.

Ref. von Osterhausen. 1996


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## sempervivens

Very interesting. So in the Movado codes it is the first number that denotes the movement. As for the Movado code 254: as shown in the link in my previous post, it is a Zenith cal 2552 C. The double use with the code 275, perhaps can be explained in the same way as the double use by Zenith of codes 365 and 388 for cal 2572 C: one is for the normal movement, the other one is for the same movement without the seconds.

As for the Zenith end-code 388: all this confirms again that it is clearly a Zenith code for cal 2572 C (without the seconds). 

Now all Hartmut has to do, is update our list again. :-!


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## Hartmut Richter

sempervivens said:


> As for the Zenith end-code 388: all this confirms again that it is clearly a Zenith code for cal 2572 C (without the seconds).
> 
> Now all Hartmut has to do, is update our list again. :-!


Done!

Hartmut Richter


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