# Dial refinishing?



## chronodeco (Jun 28, 2007)

One of my main sources of GRIEF regarding watch restorations is having the dial refinished. I don't like any refinished dials but sometimes there is no other option. I have used International Dial (US) and Dialcraft (Canada) many times in the past but they are slow and the results seem to be potluck - ranging from very good to unusable. They have both done jobs that I had to send back. I have used Kirk a few times and the work was good but at 3 to 4 times the cost, its not someone many of my customers want to pay for. So, I would like to hear about some alternatives if there are any - especially customer ratings. My perception of dial refinishers in general is that they are all a little flakey.
Thanks, Craig at Chronodeco.com


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## Biased&Critical (Sep 16, 2010)

I do them myself, as a rule, by handpainting them. Thats the rule. There are rules, they should be followed. 

Seriously though, I'm just a hobbyist. I have re-done a few dials, and I have created a few from scratch; I have done them all carefully and over lots of time by handpainting. 

If refinishing dials is something you come across often, then you may want to look into a printer. Or find a reliable outsource.


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## JohnInMinnesota (Jan 11, 2011)

Artists are generally flakey and if you find one that is consistent(ly good) you should pay them their asking price. Painting a dial is an aquired skill and I would imagine it requires a lot of resources to be able to do it with any amount of authentic results. I find watchmaking to be something that just takes time (pardon the pun). Reminds me of this poster I saw recently:


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## Alex R (Jan 4, 2010)

I've just recently use International dial first time and the last.
Very slow, rude, hard to communicate and the job is not 100%, not even close.
I hope I can find other place to send my future work.
Alex


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

chronodeco said:


> One of my main sources of GRIEF regarding watch restorations is having the dial refinished. I don't like any refinished dials but sometimes there is no other option. I have used International Dial (US) and Dialcraft (Canada) many times in the past but they are slow and the results seem to be potluck - ranging from very good to unusable. They have both done jobs that I had to send back. I have used Kirk a few times and the work was good but at 3 to 4 times the cost, its not someone many of my customers want to pay for. So, I would like to hear about some alternatives if there are any - especially customer ratings. My perception of dial refinishers in general is that they are all a little flakey.
> Thanks, Craig at Chronodeco.com


Hi Craig,

I use two sources, a dial company in Israel that does somewhat irregular quality for my less critical ones and a company here in Japan that sends them out to Korea where they do beautiful jobs, but cost around $ 300 (Gasp!). I've seen several examples of Korean dial refinishing and it is of an extremely high standard.

In the past I' ve used places in Venezuela (crappy work & expensive) in Spain (very good and expensive) , Italy (very good and expensive) and Germany (very good and expensive) .

Learning how to do dial reprinting means investing some time in learning dial printing. As usual, the basics take around 30 minutes and it takes the rest of your life time to get really good.

Bill


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## clock40man (Nov 2, 2009)

I conducted a poll on the NAWCC message board a while back that you may find informative. The title is *Poll: Who is your favorite dial refinisher and why? *We discussed all the companies in the U.S. that do dial repair (at least, all that we could think of).


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## chronodeco (Jun 28, 2007)

Clock40man - thanks for refering me to that thread on NAWCC. I used to be a member of NAWCC and went to several of their trade sales events in the Northwest but when they started allowing sellers of fakes and other junk into these shows, I gave up. Hopefully they have cleaned that up. Thanks again.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

*jewels*

Chronodeco, did you ever find your jewels?

That's pretty interesting about the nawcc events. The regionals always used to be full of junk (read treasure) and that's part of the reason I attended. The nationals seemed to have less of the threadbare/partial parts assortments and tool sets that I am always looking for.

This is the first inference that I've heard of "fakes" being sold - at any appreciable level - at a nawcc event. Fakes at one of their events is kind of like painting a swimmer up to look like a shark, covering him with chicken blood and throwing him into a tank full of the real thing - it's not going to fool anyone and it's going to be fairly interesting for the swimmer!

Can you be more specific - were the "sellers of fakes" selling fakes at an actual nawcc regional? If so, what did the "fakes" consist of and how prevalent were they?

Thank in advance for your response.


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## chronodeco (Jun 28, 2007)

If you are referring to the Zenith 146 (U285) - yes I did. One of my suppliers took them out of a parts movement. He also had the 4th wheel and drive wheel which I also ended up needing. Someone had install the WRONG 4th wheel in the movement? The guy that sold it told my customer that it was running "erratically". Big hands ran about 10 MINUTES PER HOUR SLOW - that is not what I would call erratic! I could tell as soon as I looked at the movement that someone had done a hack job on it. Looked a lot like the crap I have seen repaired in S America. Hackers always leave their mark - scratches all over the movement. I had 6+ hours into this movement before I discovered the wrong 4th wheel and had to take it all apart again.
Some real watchmaker HELL!


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

Chronodeco, I was editing my post as you were posting a response to the original version of it.


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## JohnInMinnesota (Jan 11, 2011)

From International Dial Co., Inc's website home page (link here: International Dial Co. Inc. )

"We have over 40,000 print dies and 100,000 name dies. Our extensive catalogue includes almost all of the dies for Hamiton, Elgin, Bulova, Gruen, Benrus, Waltham, Illinois, Longines, and Wittnauer. We also have a large selection of Swiss dies for Rolex, TAG, Tudor, Patek, Omega, and many others. We also have a large selection of emblems to add that special touch to any dial. If we don't have the exact die to refinish a dial we will probably have one that is close enough. We can also make new dies if necessary. Dial refinshing is the only thing we do. Your dial will recieve our complete attention. "

I think this summarizes the commitment it would take to do top notch authentic style dial restoration/refinishing!
John


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## clock40man (Nov 2, 2009)

International is the only dial refinisher I've ever used. I've had to send a few dials back when the missed some lettering, but all in all I'm pretty satisfied with their work. They did a great job on this gloss black Bulova divers watch and nice 2-tone Bulova drivers watch

.


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## radger (Nov 18, 2007)

Look what a dial finisher did to the dial of this Venus 140 regulator style chronograph .
They painted the 30 min register subdial as a 60secs subdial, how daft is that.


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

radger said:


> Look what a dial finisher did to the dial of this Venus 140 regulator style chronograph .
> They painted the 30 min register subdial as a 60secs subdial, how daft is that.


We have a saying here in Japan that sometimes even monkeys fall out of trees. No matter how much care anyone takes, there is the occasional slip up.


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## JohnInMinnesota (Jan 11, 2011)

Somewhere else said:


> We have a saying here in Japan that sometimes even monkeys fall out of trees. No matter how much care anyone takes, there is the occasional slip up.


And when you focus on the minutia of something too much without backing away to see the bigger picture, you are bound to miss the obvious sometimes. I've never personally done it, mind you... ;-)


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## JohnInMinnesota (Jan 11, 2011)

clock40man said:


> International is the only dial refinisher I've ever used. I've had to send a few dials back when the missed some lettering, but all in all I'm pretty satisfied with their work. They did a great job on this gloss black Bulova divers watch and nice 2-tone Bulova drivers watch.


These look very nice. I would love to see the process first hand to get a better understanding of what they do with these to get them looking "original". If you don't mind, would you share a ballpark on what these cost for restoration?

John


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## kset51 (May 6, 2011)

I have been repairing watches for 34 years and have used most of the dial refinishers and have come to the conclusion that is is hit and miss with most.
I used International Dial for years and was friends with Rob, the owner. He had a high turnover in personnel and the quality went down hill. 
I have used Kirk Dial of Pa and Seattle and they were hit and miss
Kirk Rich used to be the go to guys but their work isn't the same and it is expensive.
I have used a refinisher in Spain and it was so-so.
My favorite two are Kirk dial of Georgia and Superior Dial in LA.
The work is, mostly good and the prices fair. Turnaround for Kirk is usually quick and they are easy to deal with.


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## kset51 (May 6, 2011)

JohnInMinnesota said:


> These look very nice. I would love to see the process first hand to get a better understanding of what they do with these to get them looking "original". If you don't mind, would you share a ballpark on what these cost for restoration?
> 
> John


I have spent time in the International Dial shop and can tell you how they refinish dials. A die is cut into a steel block. A photo is taken of the dial and enlarged. The dial is traced from the photo to a steel block using a pantograph with a diamond tip. The steel block is used in conjunction with a silicone pad printing machine. (there are some good videos on ebay showing how pad printing works). Basically, the dial is placed in a holder in the pad printing machine and the die is next to it. The die is inked and a silicone pad (looks like upside down pyramid) is touched to the die. It is swung on the arm to the dial and touched there transferring the ink. It takes a light touch to get the imprint just right.


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## ej0rge (Jan 13, 2011)

kset51 said:


> I have spent time in the International Dial shop and can tell you how they refinish dials. A die is cut into a steel block. A photo is taken of the dial and enlarged. The dial is traced from the photo to a steel block using a pantograph with a diamond tip. The steel block is used in conjunction with a silicone pad printing machine. (there are some good videos on ebay showing how pad printing works). Basically, the dial is placed in a holder in the pad printing machine and the die is next to it. The die is inked and a silicone pad (looks like upside down pyramid) is touched to the die. It is swung on the arm to the dial and touched there transferring the ink. It takes a light touch to get the imprint just right.


 Pantograph? Here i was dreaming that surely by now at least someone was using photoshop + laser etching. I mean, had i my druthers, and a laser etching machine, that's what I'd do. It's been four or five years since the ubernerds were using DIY-built laser etching systems to put penguin logos on things.


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## derbymike (Feb 7, 2011)

I have a Camy watch with "sputnik " on the dial.
It is a far-out green color. I bought it because I was a little boy when the Soviet Union launched the first satellite, and everybody freaked out.
I was really young, but I remember. I just had to have the "Sputnik " watch--
BUT--when I got it I saw that the dial says " 21 jewels "---I knew it was wrong, but I checked and it is a 17 jewel movement.
Talk about a lame re-finish job !


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## Somewhere else (Feb 17, 2006)

derbymike said:


> I have a Camy watch with "sputnik " on the dial.
> It is a far-out green color. I bought it because I was a little boy when the Soviet Union launched the first satellite, and everybody freaked out.
> I was really young, but I remember. I just had to have the "Sputnik " watch--
> BUT--when I got it I saw that the dial says " 21 jewels "---I knew it was wrong, but I checked and it is a 17 jewel movement.
> Talk about a lame re-finish job !


Thought you might like to know that Camy is a watch that has always specialized in the Iberian market. they are still around to this day.


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## mruseful (May 22, 2011)

Hi. Can you give me an idea how much they charged to refinish your Bulova dial as I have an old Bulova from the 50's and could do with the same work carried out.
Many thanks if you can help. 
I love your black one, by the way.
Cheers,
Simon


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## tomshep (Jun 5, 2007)

I used International once and they did a poor job to begin with but once it had been returned to them, the job was turned around to my critical satisfaction and great delight. they were apologetic and very diligent with the second go so it would not harm to use them because they will work hard to get it right. I'm a fussy customer but a satisfied one.


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