# Sticky  A SHORT HISTORY OF MARTEL WATCH CO and ZENITH CHRONOGRAPHS



## sempervivens

*Martel watch co* was founded in *1911 *in *Les Ponts-de-Martel *by *Georges Pellaton-Steudler. 
*(see http://www.antiquewatchworld.com/watch/html/watch_co.html)

*1911 *was also the year that *Georges Favre *retired and changed his company name from "*Georges Favre-Jacot" *to "*Zenith*" (see Roessler, p.11-12).

Note that Zenith and *Universal *were both in *le Locle*, at approx. 10 km from Martel.

Around *1918 *Martel is seen supplying Universal with chronograph movements (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Genève#1930s-1949:_The_Chronograph_and_.22Watch_Couturier.22_er a). 

Universal Geneve claims on their website that in *1917* they launched *the world's first wristwatch chronograph* (see http://www.universal.ch/newsletter/en/details/didyouknow.htm). 

 Combining this information we can conclude that "the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal", probably used a movement made by Martel.

From this advertisement (ca. 1927?) we can see what those early Martel wristwatch chronographs looked like :








Next thing we know around *1932 *Universal launched *the world's first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers*.

The wristwatch chronograph with two pushers as we still know it today, was born!

And it will become clear from the watches produced during the 1930's that the movement had been created by Martel. 

The next year in *1933 *Universal launched *the world's first **two pusher chronograph with three counters*. (other sources say it was *1934*).

The chronograph with three subdials, another important and exciting improvement which remains a classic until today!

Thus the two chronograph movements were born which Martel was going to make for 37 years (1932-1969).

These two could easily be made in different sizes : of 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 lignes.
Zenith named them according to their size *cal. 122, 136, 146, 156, 166*. They are all basically the same, different in size only. Each can be made with two or three counters: cal. 136 *D *and cal. 136 *H*, and so on.

Universal used the same movements and of course their own caliber codes, caliber 281 and so on.

It should remain clear that Universal had the initiative. Zenith perhaps got in the project thanks to its investment power in those days. Exactly at which date Zenith got in the project, we don't know, but it was probably quite early.

 In *1933* *Raoul Perret*, the son of Georges Perret (the co-founder of Universal Watches in 1894), came in charge of Universal. The same Raoul Perret can be found in *1935* on the board of administration of Zenith :









Through Raoul Perret the Universal and Zenith Watch companies could easily cooperate in the field of the new wristwatch chronographs with two pushers.

Thanks to this cooperation Zenith from the beginning around 1932 had the same first wristwatch chronographs with two pushers available, as Universal had.

Take a look at this 1930's advertisement for Zenith chronographs:









This probably dates to around 1932-35. It could be the first known advertisement for a two pusher chronograph. The title is : "_A new chronograph caliber with two pushers_".

The text mentions that it is one and the same caliber for different sizes_,_ with as a result the ease of interchangeable parts : a characteristic of Martel calibers. 
Zenith praised the extraordinary quality of the movement and the reasonable price.

The advertisement also mentions that the chronograph dials could easily be exchanged. This is interesting, because it is possible that changing the dial was about the only thing that Zenith had to do in the making of these chronographs. There is a plausible theory that in this period not only the movements were made by Martel, but the chronographs were then also cased by Universal, before they were delivered as complete chronographs to Zenith.

In any case since Martel was making the movements, all there was left for either Universal or Zenith was adding the dials, hands, and cases to the movements, with the company names and numbers.

An example of the gold watch in the advertisement, an early 1930's Zenith chronograph with two pushers and Martel movement (Zenith caliber 136), can be seen in this thread :
https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/my-grandfathers-zenith-596561.html

In Roessler's book about Zenith, we can also see several examples of early Zenith chronographs with two pushers, made in the 1930's (p. 216-218). 

Around *1936* Universal then introduced the "_Compur_" and "_Compax_" names for chronographs with two or three subdials. Zenith used these names as well.

Roessler shows some Zenith chronographs from this period with 'Compur' on the dials (p. 219-220).

From advertisements we also know that there was a direct and open collaboration between Universal and Zenith, both using the Compur and Compax name. This advertisement for the Compur must date to ca. 1936 :









Here is another one :








And here is an advertisement from the same period (ca. 1936), where we find Zenith (and Universal is mentioned as well) advertising the Zenith Compax :









Next we should mention the renaming of Universal as *Universal Genève* in *1937*. (Again I found some uncertainty about the exact date: some sources cite 1934, but 1937 is more likely to be the correct date).

 Due to the succes of the chronographs in *1941 *Universal Geneve had to build a new, ultramodern production line for chronographs (see for instance : http://www.montreshorlogerie.com/histoire-montres-universa-geneve.html ). 

From this follows an example of a mistake which originates from one site, and is then copied by others. The opening of a new production line for chronographs in 1941 was misinterpreted by somebody as the founding date of Martel. This mistake has since spread to more sites, who copied the wrong information. As a result, some people have started believing that Martel was only founded in 1941. Please note that Martel was _not _founded in 1941 by Universal, as it had already been founded in 1911 by Georges Pellaton-Steudler. 

 Around *1942* the *Martel/Universal Geneve/Zenith *collaboration then led to *the first wristwatch chronograph with date*. (see for instance Page Modèles)

A Zenith example of the first chronograph with date can be seen in Roessler on p. 217. 
It is estimated by Roessler as "1930"(s), this should probably be "1940"(s). Interestingly the movement is signed with two caliber codes : "287" and "146" (a Universal Geneve and a Zenith caliber code for the same movement).

But this chronograph with date was only the last step before Martel came to make the star product, the *first wristwatch chronograph* *with full calendar and moonphase *in *1944*. 

And Zenith also got it: an example of the Zenith "Tricompax" can be seen in Roessler p. 221. 

Then towards the 1950s it seems that Universal Geneve shifted its attention more and more to that other novelty of those years : the automatic wristwatches. This eventually led to the Universal Geneve *Polerouter*, which (starting in *1954*) became another success for Universal Geneve. 

Zenith in the meantime started using the Excelsior Park chronograph movements as well. During the 1940's, starting ca. 1942, a movement was made by Excelsior Park which was then used by Gallet, Girard-Perregaux and Zenith for their chronographs (see Page Modèles).

Still at the same time Zenith remained faithful to the Martel chronographs as well.

Thus for a period of ca. 10 years (1946-1956) Zenith used both Excelsior Park and Martel chronographs. 

We then find Martel ca. *1956 *happily, independently and optimistically doing business.

Martel all the time had continued to supply Zenith and Universal Geneve with chronograph movements during the 1940's and '50's.

But now they also had watches under their own brand name.








An interesting non-chronograph with full calendar and moonphase.

Around 1956 they can be seen advertising for their own new automatic watch with date. 






















Note how this ad mentions that the watch was made in the best Martel tradition of precision and that Martel already had more than *40 years *experience at that time :

"...*precision workmanship and impeccable quality guaranteed by Martel's 40 year reputation for dependability and outstanding service to the watch trade*."

This funny ad dates to ca. 1957 :









Shortly afterwards, around *1958*, Zenith bought the entire Martel Watch co. 
Usually *1960 *is cited as the date of the acquisition (for instance by Roessler). Elsewhere I read *1959*. But in Roessler's movements and calibers' list (p. 32) 1958 is indicated as the date when they effectively started with the Martel 25x2 movements. 

Not only was Martel the supplier of excellent chronograph movements for Zenith since (at least) the early 1930's, by 1956 they also had developed a modern automatic watch (with rotor), with date, and the same Martel precision. Zenith could use a modern automatic movement. Until then Zenith only had bumper automatics. 

The Zenith Martel cal. 25x2 could also be used for handwound watches. It became the main Zenith movement line during the 1960's and '70s (until 1975). It was further developed and updated by Zenith almost every year during the 1960's, until ca. 1975. 

At the same time the Zenith Martel chronographs could be continued and developed further, now also by bringing all the new technologies together : wristwatch - chronograph ; automatic - with date; with the addition of a very high frequency (a novelty from the 1960's).

As a result, in *1969* the *Zenith El Primero *was born. 

Martel had made *the worlds' first automatic wristwatch chronograph movement*.

And not only that : they made it straight away with chronometer precision; with three counters; with date (and quickset); they made it ultra-thin; with a very high frequency (36000 bph); and yet very solid and stable, durable and reliable.

In *1971 *followed *the worlds' first automatic wristwatch chronograph with full calendar and moonphase (*Zenith *Espada)*.

Unfortunately for Zenith and the mechanical watch industry in general, at the same time during the '60s other people had been experimenting with electronic and quartz watches.

As a result *Bulova*, owner of an electronic watch movement, was able to buy Universal Geneve in *1967*.

And in *1972* a *Zenith radio (and television) company* was able to buy Zenith watches. 

In *1975 *the Zenith radio company ordered Zenith watches in Switzerland to stop the production of mechanical movements altogether, including the chronograph production in Martel and selling the Martel building and destroying all their tools.

_Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
When I'm sixty-four?
_
Martel was 64 years old, when it was not needed any more.

Fortunately Charles Vermot (who for 40 years was chef of ébauches production at Zenith), at that time went against the foreign orders and saved many tools, machines as well as know-how from the Martel building, which all proved to be very valuable for Zenith ten years later in 1985 when the El Primero was revived. Charles Vermot was a visionary and saved the finest tools and machines from the Martel plant in Ponts-de Martel. 

You can see a moving interview with Charles Vermot on the Zenith site :
http://www.zenith-watches.com/en/#/manufacture/saga/el-primero/saving-el-primero/movie

A golden age came to an end, however soon to be revived.

In the early 1980's a few business men bought up the old stocks of Zenith's Martel chronograph movements (both automatic as well as handwound chronograph movements), cased them, and sold them with a profit. 
Soon orders for new movements followed and around *1985 *the El Primero was resurrected.

The rest is history.

Through the El Primero, which is now more alive than ever, the legacy of the small Martel Watch Company from Les Ponts-de-Martel also lives on.

But it also lives on in the many fine watches from the past, such as most Zenith chronographs starting from around 1932 and many Zenith watches from the 1960's (until 1975).

*In memory of the Martel watch company, founded a hundred and one years ago (in 1911) in **Les Ponts-de-Martel by Georges Pellaton-Steudler. Among its accomplishments are the world's first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers (1932), with three registers (1934) with date (1942) and with full calendar and moonphase (1944); and the world's first automatic wristwatch chronograph (with three registers, date, high frequency and ultra-thin) (1969) and with full calendar and moonphase (1971). *


----------



## nicola1960

Bravissimo ! ;-)



sempervivens said:


> ...Around 1936 Universal then introduced the "_Compur_" and "_Compax_" names for chronographs with two or three subdials. Zenith used them as well....
> 
> ... But this chronograph with date was only the last step before Martel came to make the star product, the first wristwatch chronograph with full calendar and moonphase in 1944....
> 
> And Zenith also got it: an example of the Zenith "Tricompax" can be seen in Roessler p. 221....


Rassegna di


----------



## sempervivens

Thank you Nicola ! And credits should go to you for providing some of the most essential information and illustrations which I could find (for instance concerning the role of Raoul Perret and the Universal Geneve/Zenith joint advertisements). 
b-)

edit : I've added three more old advertisements, found on the page for which you gave the link (Rassegna di) and I should mention that it also contains many interesting pictures of actual watches, early Zenith chronographs, Compur's and Compax and so on.

Thank you !


----------



## v76

Great job summarizing the intertwined histories of Martel, UG and Zenith. Thank you for putting this together, it should definitely be a sticky!


----------



## nicola1960




----------



## LouS

Wow, what an impressive compendium! Your radically revisionist recitation certainly raises several interesting points, and if it turns out to be accurate, is revolutionary. Many a chronograph collector will be surprised to learn that all of the mechanical achievements of the vaunted UG brand are actually those of Martel, a company that until about the 1950s did not produce a wristwatch with its name on it. It raises several questions as well, and leaves me somewhat confused.For the sake of clarification and a little critical evaluation, let me present a few points and express some reservations


sempervivens said:


> Around 1918 Martel is seen supplying Universal with chronograph movements (see Universal Genève - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a).


On further examination, this statement appears to be unsupported. Your source is wikipedia, and their source is no less an horological authority than a reporter for the Singapore Business Times, whose article states only that Martel bought Zenith in 1960 - nothing about Martel supplying UG. Check it yourself: http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/sub/supplement/story/0,4574,453681,00.html?You have pointed out elsewhere that statements can become fact by simple repetition on the internet - we see here an example of how. On the italian site, Nicola extracts an apparently supporting statement from inevneitetfecit.com (Rassegna di). However, again tracking back to the source, we see that this is in reference to the Datocompax, known to be manufactured at the UG facility at Ponts-de Martel after 1941. Unfortunately, this unsupported assumption about Martel being the source of UG movements proves rather key in all that follows, as here


sempervivens said:


> we can conclude that the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal around 1917-18, probably used a movement made by Martel.


In_ Universal Watch Geneve_, Pietro Giuliano Sala has written an horological history that more lavishly documented from primary sources than all but a few others. He has stated thatn in 1933, upon his accession to the management of UG with the death of his father, Raoul Perret concentrated all manufacturing operations in Geneva, which would seem to preclude Martel being a source of movements.


sempervivens said:


> "_A new chronograph caliber with two pushers_".The text mentions that it is one and the same caliber for different sizes_,_ with as a result the ease of interchangeable parts : this is a characteristic of Martel calibers.


...and of UG calibers, which the advertisement is in fact talking about.


sempervivens said:


> In any case since Martel was making the movements, all there was left for either Universal or Zenith was adding the dials, hands, and cases to the movements, with the company names and numbers.


Wouldn't it be odd for UG to have bought ebauches from Martel, and the sold them - as ebauches - to Eberhard, Jaeger LeCoultre and Vacheron & Constantin, all well documented in Sala, as if those firms did not know Martel's telephone number themselves? Now, there is no doubt the Swiss watchmaking industry works in mysterious ways, with all sorts of collective agreements that do not jibe with expectations of competitive corporate culture, but that seems curiously complicated and improbable to me.


sempervivens said:


> Then it is reported by some that due to the succes of the chronographs by *1941 *Universal Geneve had to open a new, ultramodern production line for chronographs


This piece of information is not "reported by some." It is documented. I will quote Sala at length "This latest chain of events (_Zenith's demand for UG ebauches - my note_) convinced the partners to build a new plant in Pont-de-Martel in record time, where they began manufacturing chronographs and timekeepers for military and industrial purposes...the new factory was opened on 31 January 1941....It was in this facility that, among others, the new chronograph presented on 6 November 1940 was built: the Aerocompax...in the following year, production of a new totalizing chronograph fro aviation commenced, along with other watches and chronographs for purely military purposes which dominated the period." Along with this, Sala offers two pictures of the plant itself with "UNIVERSAL" across the front of the building. This last suggests strongly that you are right that the establishment of this plant is different from the establishment of Martel, the point of confusion being the place name. It also raises the possibility that the identity of Martel watch and UG's Pont de Martel facility have been conflated in other ways, namely that many of the achievements of the UG works have been ascribed to Martel Watch company when in fact the two are different. Here is a good example of that:


sempervivens said:


> Around *1942* the *Martel/Universal Geneve/Zenith *collaboration then led to *the first wristwatch chronograph with date*. (see for instance Page Modèles)



The DatoCompax is plainly a UG product, made at the Pont-de-Martel works. That, as you have showed, is not the same as a Martel product. The author of invenitetfecit (your source) regards the two as synonymous, it now seems to me erroneously. Very confusing...




sempervivens said:


> only the last step before Martel came to make the star product, the *first wristwatch chronograph* *with full calendar and moonphase *in *1944*.



That will surprise many people! Again Sala, shortly after discussing the Tri-Compax introduction for UG's 50th anniversary, "All chronographs produced (Unicompax, Compax, Medico-Compax, Dato-Compax, Aero-Compax, and Tri-Compax) along with more simple pieces, were equipped with movements designed and manufactured entirely in-house."

So, I'm skeptical - to say the least - of your casting Martel as the "little man behind the curtain" to Universal Geneve's Wizard of Oz, and assigning all of UG's accomplishments to little Martel. Nevertheless, there remain many ambiguities. Left to explain is the Martel-UG shared, near-identical triple-calendar moonphase with the cal 291, the cal 146 which entered into Zenith's posession as well as the 'Victorious' product line, similarly in Zenith's portfolio. From where did each originate?

It seems to me that four elements clearly existed and must be accounted for
1. Martel watch company established in 1911
2. a wholly-owned UG facility at Pont de Martel
3. an independent Martel watch company functioning in the 1950's with self-branded products, some of which are shared with UG
4. an entity named 'Martel' which Zenith bought 1958-1960, and which brought a new time-only watch movement (never used by UG), and UG-derived chronograph movement, and the 'Victorious' product line into the Zenith portfolio

To me, the 1911 Martel seems unrelated to anything else. The only statement that relates it to UG is an unsupported Wikipedia item. As a footnote, I should mention that "Martel" does not enter Sala's history until the plant is build there in 1941. The UG facility and the independent 1950s Martel are linked by the cal 291 triple-calendar moonphase watch. The independant Martel and Zenith are linked by teh 25x2 series calibers and the 'Victorious.' The UG facility and Zenith may be linked by the cal 146 - I know of no Martel-branded chronograph at all.

From this, my hypothesis: 1911 Martel died or was absorbed at some undetermined point in the past. UG built a chronograph works at Pont de Martel in 1941, and spun it off as a separate brand, perhaps wholly independent, perhaps not, in the 1950s, using a name from the past that had fallen into disuse, as many companies have done recently. That company developed the 25x2 series of calibers to support a time-only watch line as a main product. That brand and the physical facility in Pont de Martel was acquired by Zenith, looking for a rotor automatic and an in-house chronograph. UG's accomplishments belong to UG and no one else, and UG was the parent of 1950s Martel, sold to Zenith.


----------



## sempervivens

but dear Lou, Whatever the fans of Universal Geneve or Zenith may think or say about the UG or Zenith chronographs being made wholly "in-house", you should see through all that.

Tell me, what movements did Universal Geneve use when it started, in the 1930's? Everybody knows that these were identical to the Zenith calibers, they were Martel made movements.

The Zenith advertisement from ca. 1932-1935 for the two new chronograph caliber with two pushers is not about Universal Geneve calibers, it is about Zenith chronographs with Zenith cal. 122 and 136.

But whether called Universal cal. 281 or Zenith cal. 122, the movement was the same, and it was designed and made by Martel.

Take a look also at the advertisement for the Martel single pusher wristwatch chronograph from ca. 1927, another addition thanks to Nicola.

Nicola has studied the thing more and we seem to agree on this short history being correct!

Take your time to study the movements.

Thanks


----------



## sempervivens

v76 said:


> Great job summarizing the intertwined histories of Martel, UG and Zenith. Thank you for putting this together, it should definitely be a sticky!


Thanks V!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks you, sempervivens, for the write up and LouS for the additional comments. My only contribution at this stage is two corrections:

1. The Zenith Cal. 126 was not a chronograph movement, not was it made by Martel. It is the in house cousin of the Cal. 106 (HW, sub second but 12''' instead of 10'''). You are thinking of the (Martel chronograph) Cal. 122.

2. Prior to using the 25xx P(C) series, Zenith had only one automatic movement (Cal. 133) and derivatives (Cals.133.8 and 71) but these were in house. Zenith did not obtain external automatic movements at that stage.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## John Chris

SV, thank you so much for your intrepid and valuable research. This issue has long interested me (ever since I read in a JLC book that UG had subcontracted chronograph manufacture to Martel in order to keep up with demand in the late '40s), and it is all so hard to pin down! Fascinating to learn that UG's Raoul Perret was on the board of Zenith! I have to admit that information I have seen (admittedly not as much as you have seen!) has always indicated that UG developed and manufactured its chronograph movements in-house in the '20s, '30s and '40s, being, with Lemania, one of the only houses to do so outside of the ebauche-makers, Ebauches S.A., Venus and Valjoux. It is so interesting to see the connections in those days between Universal, Zenith and Martel!

Your conclusion "that the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal around 1917-18, probably used a movement made by Martel" seems rather thinly supported to me. Lang and Meis, "Chronograph Wristwatches, To Stop Time" (1993) credit the Moeris firm with the first small (13''') chronograph movements marketed as wristwatche around 1910. Frustratingly, they barely mention Martel except to note a 1937 patent concerning the hour register wheel drive.

Incidentally, you have repeated what I have read elsewhere that Zenith ceased mechanical manufacture in 1975 on the orders of its parent Zenith Radio Corporation, deviously undermined by the sainted Charles Vermot. It is clear, however, that Zenith Le Locle continued to produce the El Primero 01.0200.415 "Fernseher" (TV set) (and no other) right up to 1978 when the last 50 were produced in black (see how our purchases guide our research; see also Roessler, p. 241). My assumption has been that this continued production was tolerated by ZRC because it used up existing parts and connected in to the TV set image - they were advertised under ZRC's slogan "The quality goes in before the name goes on." But I have never seen an authoritative explanation for this limited continued mechanical production from 1975-1978. Anyone?

SV, thanks again!

Chris


----------



## sempervivens

John Chris said:


> SV, thank you so much for your intrepid and valuable research. This issue has long interested me (ever since I read in a JLC book that UG had subcontracted chronograph manufacture to Martel in order to keep up with demand in the late '40s), and it is all so hard to pin down! Fascinating to learn that UG's Raoul Perret was on the board of Zenith! I have to admit that information I have seen (admittedly not as much as you have seen!) has always indicated that UG developed and manufactured its chronograph movements in-house in the '20s, '30s and '40s, being, with Lemania, one of the only houses to do so outside of the ebauche-makers, Ebauches S.A., Venus and Valjoux. It is so interesting to see the connections in those days between Universal, Zenith and Martel!
> 
> Your conclusion "that the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal around 1917-18, probably used a movement made by Martel" seems rather thinly supported to me. Lang and Meis, "Chronograph Wristwatches, To Stop Time" (1993) credit the Moeris firm with the first small (13''') chronograph movements marketed as wristwatche around 1910. Frustratingly, they barely mention Martel except to note a 1937 patent concerning the hour register wheel drive.
> 
> Incidentally, you have repeated what I have read elsewhere that Zenith ceased mechanical manufacture in 1975 on the orders of its parent Zenith Radio Corporation, deviously undermined by the sainted Charles Vermot. It is clear, however, that Zenith Le Locle continued to produce the El Primero 01.0200.415 "Fernseher" (TV set) (and no other) right up to 1978 when the last 50 were produced in black (see how our purchases guide our research; see also Roessler, p. 241). My assumption has been that this continued production was tolerated by ZRC because it used up existing parts and connected in to the TV set image - they were advertised under ZRC's slogan "The quality goes in before the name goes on." But I have never seen an authoritative explanation for this limited continued mechanical production from 1975-1978. Anyone?
> 
> SV, thanks again!
> 
> Chris


Thank You Chris.

I agree that there is not much documentation concerning the chronograph which Universal claims they launched around 1917, 'the world's first wristwatch chronograph'. It is possible that *Moeris *had one before Universal, or both arrived at the same time. Difficult to tell. The only point being made here is that the one which was launched by Universal around 1917, was possibly designed by Martel and then maybe looked like one of those which can be seen in the *Martel advertisement from ca. 1920's*.

There is the mention on the Universal Geneve Wikipedia page that Universal started using Martel movements as early as 1918: I couldn't verify the source for that. But anyway it is general knowledge that Martel supplied chronograph movements to Universal.

Concerning the ending of the production in 1975 and the production of 'TV' El Primero's after that (until 1978) : it is my understanding that in 1975 the production of movements was halted. But Zenith had plenty of stock movements and cases to continue producing some more TV Primero's during the next years. To produce the black TV Primero in 1978 they only had to order 50 more black dials from the company that supplied their dials.

@ Hartmut : thank you for the comments and corrections ! I've edited the text with your corrections.

Strange that Zenith called the 12 lignes version caliber 12*2* and all the others with a* 6* : cal. 136, 146, 156, 166 : that got me confused.


----------



## LouS

Great thread, and high time we tried to hash this out.



sempervivens said:


> but dear Lou, Whatever the fans of Universal Geneve or Zenith may think or say about the UG or Zenith chronographs being made wholly "in-house", you should see through all that.


I see through this as well as the Martel fans see through the Martel origin of the movements ;-)



sempervivens said:


> Take your time to study the movements.
> 
> Thanks


I would love to, but I can't find any Martel movements to study. None in the Ranfft database, none in Lang & Meis's _Chronograph Wristwatches_, no mention of any in Ghidoni & Ribolini's _Il Cronografo Interpretato_, no mention of any in Salm's _Armband Chronographen_. At the same time, Lang & Meis has 7 Universal Geneve movements and Ranfft has 16. Further, neither existing UG monograph - Bonifacio & Rivolta's _Universal Geneve_, and Sala's _Universal Watch Genev_e - make any mention of Martel movements, and of course there are no Martel monographs. Nor do I find any mention of Martel in Antiquorum's storied Universal Geneve sale of 9 April 1994. The tracks of Martel are so well covered that the story begins to ask for a conspiracy theory.



sempervivens said:


> Tell me, what movements did Universal Geneve use when it started, in the 1930's? Everybody knows that these were identical to the Zenith calibers, they were Martel made movements.


Universal started making wrist chronographs in 1917 from 17 ligne pocket watch ebauches (Sala), ebauches presumably Universal's own. This does give some room to speculate on the source of the ebauches, but certainly stops well short of affirming an outside source, much less Martel. As for 'identical to Zenith calibers,' one need hardly bend over backwards to arrive at an explanation - Zenith was supplied by UG, as amply documented by Sala using UG archives. He actually has photographs of records of the Zenith watches from UG archives, entered before they left the UG works to go to Zenith.



sempervivens said:


> The Zenith advertisement from ca. 1932-1935 for the two new chronograph caliber with two pushers is not about Universal Geneve calibers, it is about Zenith chronographs with Zenith cal. 126 and 136.
> 
> But whether called Universal cal. 281 or Zenith cal. 126, the movement was the same, and it was designed and made by Martel.


Nothing in this supports a Martel origin.



sempervivens said:


> Take a look also at the advertisement for the Martel single pusher wristwatch chronograph from ca. 1927, another addition thanks to Nicola.
> 
> Nicola has studied the thing more and we seem to agree on this short history being correct!


Again, the advertisement proves nothing at all other than Martel was producing wrist chronographs that could be mistaken for those of a dozen other manufacturers by that date. Martel could just as easily have outsourced its movements from UG, or from another supplier. I have read Nicola's valuable posts as best I can with the help of Mr. Google, and I do see that he suggests that UG was obtaining movements from Martel before 1941 (In merito a Universal.....). Here, though, I believe he makes the error of conflating the UG works in Pont-de-Martel with the company Martel (Bonifacio & Rivolta suggest there was a UG facility there which was demolished to make way for the new 1941 factory).

Here's a photo of the new factory of 1941 - clearly not a Martel Watch Co. Facility









Back we come to the central issue - how was 1911 Martel related to the Universal Geneve works in Pont-de-Martel? Did 1911 Martel die and was the UG works a totally separate entity? Was it bought by UG and demolished, the Pont de Martel works representing its descendant? And if it was bought, what intellectual property came with it? Was UG producing 1911 Martel hardware, or did it simply use the real estate to augment production of its own from Geneva?

If UG received ebauches from Martel, the absence of traces from the historical record are hard to explain. Has any other movement supplier been as thoroughly buried?


----------



## LouS

We were posting siumulatenously, SV - obviously much engaged in this topic!



sempervivens said:


> I agree that there is not much documentation concerning the chronograph which Universal claims they launched around 1917, 'the world's first wristwatch chronograph'. It is possible that *Moeris *had one before Universal, or both arrived at the same time. Difficult to tell. The only point being made here is that the one which was launched by Universal around 1917, was possibly designed by Martel and then maybe looked like one of those which can be seen in the *Martel advertisement from ca. 1920's*.


here is a cautious, well-qualified remark - "possibly designed by Martel...maybe looked like one of those in the Martel advertisement"
No evidence in favor, and none against - just informed speculation - a responsible researcher's statement.



sempervivens said:


> There is the mention on the Universal Geneve Wikipedia page that Universal started using Martel movements as early as 1918: I couldn't verify the source for that. But anyway it is general knowledge that Martel supplied chronograph movements to Universal.


There is no source to verify. The footnote refers to the second statement in the sentence, that Zenith bought Martel (and a cites a "lifestyle" article in the Singapore Business News - gotta love Wikipedia). As for Martel supplying movements, here is the "conflation error" - the source of all the misunderstanding. The Universal works in Pont de Martel supplied chronograph movements to Universal - but what was Martel Watch Company?


----------



## sempervivens

LouS said:


> Great thread, and high time we tried to hash this out.
> 
> ...
> 
> Universal started making wrist chronographs in 1917 from 17 ligne pocket watch ebauches (Sala), ebauches presumably Universal's own.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lou. There is no hurry, but I hope we will learn and find out more.

If the first Universal wristwatch chronograph from around 1917 was 17 lignes, as you quote, that would agree perfectly with the Martel advertisement from the 1920's, where they advertised a 17 lignes chronograph. 
Since you say it was only "presumably" Universal's own movement, then it might as well be presumed that it was not their own movement but bought from a specialist like Martel.

Martel was a typical ébaucheur : an ébaucheur does not take any credit for the watches they delivered to the établisseurs. They don't boast about what they do. All the advertisement business is left to the établisseur. That's why we can find very little information about Martel.

Perhaps you should take another look at the advertisement for Martel's "Victorious" watch (ca. 1956). The advertisement mentions : *"impeccable quality guaranteed by Martel's 40 year reputation for dependability and outstanding service to the watch trade". *1911-1956 = 45 years. The ad confirms the uninterrupted existence of the 1911 Martel, which never 'died' (until it was closed by the Zenith Radio company in 1975).

The fact that Martel was the original creator of the chronograph movements of course doesn't mean that Universal (and Zenith) did not invest a lot of money in Martel : the money needed for investing in further chronograph developments was obviously coming from Universal and Zenith. And considering that they paid for the development and practically were the sole customers of Martel, I can understand that Universal would still claim that it was wholly their in-house movement.

Also this doesn't exclude that from 1941 onwards there came an _additional plant _in Les Ponts-de Martel for chronograph production and that this new production line was wholly owned by Universal Geneve. Apparently it is so. However it is possible that Universal Geneve then paid Martel for the right to start producing the chronograph movements directly themselves (from 1941 onwards) and still did this with the help and under supervision of Martel (hence the location).

Two questions for you: the Universal building in Les Ponts-de-Martel was built in 1941. Why exactly in Les Ponts-de Martel, if Universal Geneve was producing everything else in Geneva? And where were the Universal chronograph movements produced _before _the new plant opened in 1941?

Note that the Martel building in Les Ponts-de-Martel can still be seen in the video with Charles Vermot (around minute 4).


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> ... The ad confirms the uninterrupted existence of the 1911 Martel, which never 'died' (until it was closed by the Zenith Radio company in 1975)...


1921








1922








1923









1929








1933


----------



## Aranya2

Thanks for this great post !


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## LouS

sempervivens said:


> If the first Universal wristwatch chronograph from around 1917 was 17 lignes, as you quote, that would agree perfectly with the Martel advertisement from the 1920's, where they advertised a 17 lignes chronograph.
> Since you say it was only "presumably" Universal's own movement, then it might as well be presumed that it was not their own movement but bought from a specialist like Martel.


...or someone else. There is no evidence it was Universal, but neither is there evidence it was Martel. It is all presumption.



sempervivens said:


> Martel was a typical ébaucheur : an ébaucheur does not take any credit for the watches they delivered to the établisseurs. They don't boast about what they do. All the advertisement business is left to the établisseur. That's why we can find very little information about Martel.


Such a degree of anonymity is not typical at all, I think. When we think about other chronograph ébaucheurs - Valjoux, Venus, Landeron - we find that they leave plenty of traces in the horological record. The names of the movements are in common circulation, and the companies that use them - think Breitling, Heuer - make no hay about having in-house movements. Universal Geneve is completely different - we hear in house all the time, and we don't know of any Martel movement. What is a Martel movement, other than what we here on the forum call the movements that came into Zenith possession when they bought the Universal Geneve Ponts-de-Martel works?



sempervivens said:


> Perhaps you should take another look at the advertisement for Martel's "Victorious" watch (ca. 1956). The advertisement mentions : *"impeccable quality guaranteed by Martel's 40 year reputation for dependability and outstanding service to the watch trade". *1911-1956 = 45 years. The ad confirms the uninterrupted existence of the 1911 Martel, which never 'died' (until it was closed by the Zenith Radio company in 1975).


Yes, this statement, plus the documentation that Nicola has supplied shows that Martel was in continuous operation. That part of my hypothesis is invalidated.



sempervivens said:


> The fact that Martel was the original creator of the chronograph movements of course doesn't mean that Universal (and Zenith) did not invest a lot of money in Martel : the money needed for investing in further chronograph developments was obviously coming from Universal and Zenith. And considering that they paid for the development and practically were the sole customers of Martel, I can understand that Universal would still claim that it was wholly their in-house movement.


I'm not entirely satisfied that a company can receive ebauches from an independant manufacturer and claim they are in house. Have we any similar examples from horology? And remember that UG sold ebauches further on. It would be strange for other companies to buy them from UG when they were available from Martel. 
Assuming that Martel and UG were related, could the relationship have been the inverse of what you have hypothesized? Namely, could Martel have been retained as a subcontractor to produce additional UG movements, perhaps when Universal was in Le Locle? It would explain the absence of Martel movements, and UG as the sole source of UG ebauches perhaps.



sempervivens said:


> Also this doesn't exclude that from 1941 onwards there came an _additional plant _in Les Ponts-de Martel for chronograph production and that this new production line was wholly owned by Universal Geneve. Apparently it is so. However it is possible that Universal Geneve then paid Martel for the right to start producing the chronograph movements directly themselves (from 1941 onwards) and still did this with the help and under supervision of Martel (hence the location).
> 
> Two questions for you: the Universal building in Les Ponts-de-Martel was built in 1941. Why exactly in Les Ponts-de Martel, if Universal Geneve was producing everything else in Geneva? And where were the Universal chronograph movements produced _before _the new plant opened in 1941?


Some excerpts from Sala(S) and Bonifacio & Rivolta(BR) to reconstruct the geographic history of UG: 
18 January 1894: Descombes & Perret founded "Universal Watch Company" on rue du College in Le Locle for the purpose of "Fabricatoin de boites, des cuvettes, des cadrans, de mouvements, d'etuis et emballages des montres" (S)
1897: Perret & Berthoud take over all patents and trademarks, establishing at no 7, rue Daniel Jean Richard, Le Locle (S, BR)
1918: a shop (by which I understand a retail outlet) opens in Geneva (S)
1919: administrative offices transferred to Rue de L'Arabesque, Geneva, but "A Le Locle venne mantenuta la parte ideativa e construttiva." "Le Locle remained the creative and construction hub" (S)
1933: upon the accession of Perret fils to the directorship after the death of his father, "all manufacturing operations were concentrated in Geneva" (S) "THe Manufacture des Montres UNiversal Perret & Berhtoud SA Geneve was founded" (BR)
1935: head office moved to 43 rue du Rhone, Geneva (S) 
1941: unable to keep up with demand, UG opens a new plant in Ponts-de-Martel (S). INterestingly, BR state that there was an old property there "In January 1941, faced with the prospect of either turning down orders fro chronographs or boosting the productivity of the Ponts-de-Martel factory, *which had already been making them for years*, Universal in less than 6 months demolished the old premises and openeda new manufacturing facility on the same site. Far ahead of its time, the factory featured telephones in every room, goods lifts, pilot clocks throughout the factory and innovatively designed machinery that boosted the quality of its output even further. The plant produces the latest additions to the UNiversal range, the AeroCompax and the totalizer chronograph fro airline pilots. " (BR)
mid-1940s: Geneva premises refurbished to include workshops on the top floor (BR)
1954: new manufacturing plant opened in Carouge (a municipality of Geneva) (S, BR) apparently to accommodate production of the microrotor movements

So in answer to your questions: Question 1: the plant in Ponts de Martel opened there because UG already had real estate there where it was making movements before. The fact that it had 'UNiversal' across the front makes it improbable that it was a Martel facility, as already discussed. We have no images of the antecedent facility. Two possibilities appear to exist. It was a UG property, set up nearby when the directorate was in Le Locle (10km away). Alternately, it was a Martel plant that was replaced. However, it seems to me that UG would have had to purchase the facility, if not the whole company (P-d-M is not that large - it's not clear to me how many physical plants 1911 Martel could have had) to put 'Universal' across the front. That's not impossible, but it seems highly unlikley that such a transaction would have gone unrecorded in the Swiss press, based on the items that Nicola has found so far. I rely on him to find some evidence of such a transaction.

Question 2: first in Le Locle, then in Geneva and Ponts de Martel

In fact, I think futher clues lie in the press and trademark and patent office records. For example, it would be interesting to compare the board of directors and executives of UG and Martel at some equivalent moment in time. It would be interesting to see when Martel registered its little circle with wings trademark that it used on its 1950s watches, when it registered its 'Victorious' trademark, and what movement patents it held.



sempervivens said:


> Note that the Martel building in Les Ponts-de-Martel can still be seen in the video with Charles Vermot (around minute 4).


Yes, I saw that - it was converted into something ignominious like a dry goods warehouse or something similar....can you be sure it is the same building? To me, it looks like the same building with two rows of large set-back windows and two floors below. I ask because that would at least help us determine that it was Universal plant that Zenith bought.


----------



## sempervivens

LouS said:


> ...or someone else. There is no evidence it was Universal, but neither is there evidence it was Martel. It is all presumption.


 Yes but it is a logical presumption. Since Universal always used Martel chronographs, this cooperation _probably _started as early as 1917. I agree there is no 100 % proof here. But Martel was there, they were chronograph specialists, they had a 17 lignes wristwatch chronograph, it probably was that which Universal used.



> Such a degree of anonymity is not typical at all, I think. When we think about other chronograph ébaucheurs - Valjoux, Venus, Landeron - we find that they leave plenty of traces in the horological record. The names of the movements are in common circulation, and the companies that use them - think Breitling, Heuer - make no hay about having in-house movements. Universal Geneve is completely different - we hear in house all the time, and we don't know of any Martel movement. What is a Martel movement, other than what we here on the forum call the movements that came into Zenith possession when they bought the Universal Geneve Ponts-de-Martel works?


I'm no expert, but it seems anyway there is not so much knowledge around about the earliest wristwatch chronographs.

Breitling also claims they launched the first wristwatch chronograph in 1915:

"1884 - In St. Imier, in the Jura mountains of Switzerland, Leon Breitling opens a workshop specialising in making chronographs and precision counters for scientific and industrial purposes. In 1914 Leon Breitling dies and the company is passed over to his son Gaston, a year later Gaston creates the first wristwatch chronograph and subsequently provides pilots with the first wrist instruments. By 1923 Breitling had developed the first ever independent chronograph pushpiece." (Breitling watches at Watches.co.uk) On the official Breitling site there are more confused claims, I don't think they know their own history all that well either.

Also about Valjoux, Venus, and Landeron I would say there is relatively little that we know, considering they are responsible for so many chronographs.

The difference is that the Valjoux, Venus and Landeron chronograph ébauches were available for everyone and effectively were sold to many different brands. 
Obviously there nobody can claim a Valjoux or Venus to be their own in-house movement (maybe some do).

Universal on the contrary seems to have reached an early exclusivity agreement with Martel. Nobody but Universal and Zenith got to use the new Martel chronographs with two pushers.

Universal possibly owned a part of the stock of Martel. That could be.

Martel Watch Co SA took the legal structure of a stock corporation (Société anonyme) in 1914 as Nicola has shown.

In December 1929 the capital was raised from 100 000 to 150 000 franks. That is a clear sign of an important investment being made!

And a few years afterwards, in 1932 appears the first "modern" chronograph with two pushers.

Universal has IMO some right to call it their own in-house movement, since they had the exclusivity and helped developing it by their investments (with the help of Zenith also).

Universal however never concealed they got the chronographs from Martel. This is part of general knowledge after all. It seems to me that many people in the watch world already know or have heard that the Universal Geneve chronograph movements came from Martel!



> 1933: upon the accession of Perret fils to the directorship after the death of his father, "*all manufacturing operations were concentrated in Geneva*" (S) "THe Manufacture des Montres UNiversal Perret & Berhtoud SA Geneve was founded" (BR)
> 1935: head office moved to 43 rue du Rhone, Geneva (S)
> 1941: unable to keep up with demand, UG opens a new plant in Ponts-de-Martel (S). INterestingly, BR state that there was an old property there "In January 1941, faced with the prospect of either turning down orders fro chronographs or boosting the productivity of the Ponts-de-Martel factory, *which had already been making them for years*,


It is clear from this quotation that we should understand that "when all manufacturing operations were concentrated in Geneva", this means : _all except the chronographs_ (which were being made in Les Ponts-de-Martel).

Due to the succes of the first two pushers chronographs which were launched in the 1930's, Universal could open a modern new production facility in 1941 for chronographs.

The new Universal building was then apparently an _additional _production centre where Universal could produce more chronographs, however still in cooperation with Martel.

Is the addres of that building mentioned?

It is in the same style, but to me it seems a different building from the Martel building, that can be seen in the Vermot video.



> Yes, I saw that - it was converted into something ignominious like a dry goods warehouse or something similar....


The Martel building after 1975 was taken over by "une entreprise d'alimentation", that is French for a company specialised in food products. And they kept the name Martel apparently, so they didn't have to remove the Martel name on the building. Who knows how long that lasted; that video must have been made in the nineties.


----------



## John Chris

Originally Posted by *sempervivens* 
Note that the Martel building in Les Ponts-de-Martel can still be seen in the video with Charles Vermot (around minute 4)."

"Yes, I saw that - it was converted into something ignominious like a dry goods warehouse or something similar....can you be sure it is the same building? To me, it looks like the same building with two rows of large set-back windows and two floors below. I ask because that would at least help us determine that it was Universal plant that Zenith bought."(LouS)

Being a detail kind of guy, I reviewed the Charles Vermot video carefully and compared the shot of the Martel manufacture with Lou's photo of the 'new' Universal factory in Les Ponts de Martel. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that they are one and the same building (the details of # of panes of glass in outlying windows as compared to central windows, etc. are a dead giveaway). The question remains, how did that factory come to change hands? Did Universal build it to expand its chronograph production, then decide it was too much capital, sell it to Martel and sub-contract its chronograph production? Or was it always a Martel facility that bore the Universal name until its production ceased being almost entirely for Universal? (Just as the Aegler facility in Biel bore the name Rolex long before it was owned by Rolex.) Over to youse guys!

Chris


----------



## sempervivens

John Chris said:


> Being a detail kind of guy, I reviewed the Charles Vermot video carefully and compared the shot of the Martel manufacture with Lou's photo of the 'new' Universal factory in Les Ponts de Martel. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that they are one and the same building (the details of # of panes of glass in outlying windows as compared to central windows, etc. are a dead giveaway). The question remains, how did that factory come to change hands? Did Universal build it to expand its chronograph production, then decide it was too much capital, sell it to Martel and sub-contract its chronograph production? Or was it always a Martel facility that bore the Universal name until its production ceased being almost entirely for Universal? (Just as the Aegler facility in Biel bore the name Rolex long before it was owned by Rolex.) Over to youse guys!
> 
> Chris


 Yes I also see it now, it is the same building. That is also more logical than a big additional building. That must have been in the Rue de l'Industrie then.

I would conclude that the older Martel facility was replaced by a new building in 1941, which then got the name of Universal on the facade. Probably Universal owned a part of the Martel stock and chose to have their own name on the building for promotional reasons. Apparently later Martel became wholly independent again and had its own name placed on the building.

Zenith then bought the entire stock of Martel ca. 1958. The independent stock corporation Martel Watch co S.A. ceased to exist.

Still Zenith never had the Martel name removed from the building in Les-Ponts-de-Martel, although it was their property and it was the place where they produced all the chronographs, including the El Primero. So Zenith did the opposite from what Universal had done : although in 1941 Martel was still a separate entity, Universal put their name on the building; Zenith on the contrary, although they fully owned Martel, let the name Martel be there.


----------



## LouS

sempervivens said:


> Yes but it is a logical presumption. Since Universal always used Martel chronographs, this cooperation _probably _started as early as 1917. I agree there is no 100 % proof here. But Martel was there, they were chronograph specialists, they had a 17 lignes wristwatch chronograph, it probably was that which Universal used.


Well, I don't think it's quite so self-evident, but it is certainly possible


sempervivens said:


> I'm no expert, but it seems anyway there is not so much knowledge around about the earliest wristwatch chronographs.


Clearly - a very confused picture


sempervivens said:


> Also about Valjoux, Venus, and Landeron I would say there is relatively little that we know, considering they are responsible for so many chronographs.


Well, the point is we know that the movements exist. They are named according to the appellation of the ebaucheurs - but no Martel movements until the 1950s


sempervivens said:


> Universal on the contrary seems to have reached an early exclusivity agreement with Martel.


Or Universal just farmed out production of its own ebauches to Martel (again assuming a relationship there). Or Martel was a wholly-owned subsidiary. Or there was no relationship with Martel until later. That's the point of the thread, I think. We really don't know the nature of the relationship


sempervivens said:


> Universal has IMO some right to call it their own in-house movement, since they had the exclusivity and helped developing it by their investments (with the help of Zenith also).


More speculation presented as fact. All of that remains to be shown, including the part about Zenith helping. The 1941 UG works at PdM was apparently built in large part to satisfy demand from Zenith, implying that Zenith was simply a client - no suggestion of investment before delivery of goods. The UG records appear to show that they supplied completed watches to Zenith, and the Zenith watches with UG calibers have case and reference numbers on them in line with UG convention, not Zenith. So Zenith and UG invest, and UG becomes the exclusive owner of the movement, and Zenith a paying customer? Doesn't make sense.


sempervivens said:


> Universal however never concealed they got the chronographs from Martel. This is part of general knowledge after all. It seems to me that many people in the watch world already know or have heard that the Universal Geneve chronograph movements came from Martel!


Yes, Wikipedia says so. :-d Good golly, all of this good back and forth and you suddenly declare that the matter under consideration is general knowledge? Sala, Berthoud & Rivolta appear not to be in the know, nor Lang & Mies. Or do you mean that they came from the place, Martel?


sempervivens said:


> It is clear from this quotation that we should understand that "when all manufacturing operations were concentrated in Geneva", this means : _all except the chronographs_ (which were being made in Les Ponts-de-Martel).


well, not exactly clear, but I see what you mean - something must have remained in PdM to demolish and replace with the state-of-the-art works in 1941.


sempervivens said:


> The new Universal building was then apparently an _additional _production centre where Universal could produce more chronographs, however still in cooperation with Martel.


I don't see how it follows that there was another production center, nor the cooperation with Martel.


sempervivens said:


> Is the addres of that building mentioned?


Unfortunately not, nor does GoogleMaps have a streetview of PdM so we can tool around and find it. There is an Alimentation Proxi at 26 Grand Rue....Anyone want to make a grocery run to PdM and find out what is what?


John Chris said:


> Being a detail kind of guy, I reviewed the Charles Vermot video carefully and compared the shot of the Martel manufacture with Lou's photo of the 'new' Universal factory in Les Ponts de Martel. There is no doubt whatever in my mind that they are one and the same building (the details of # of panes of glass in outlying windows as compared to central windows, etc. are a dead giveaway). The question remains, how did that factory come to change hands? Did Universal build it to expand its chronograph production, then decide it was too much capital, sell it to Martel and sub-contract its chronograph production? Or was it always a Martel facility that bore the Universal name until its production ceased being almost entirely for Universal? (Just as the Aegler facility in Biel bore the name Rolex long before it was owned by Rolex.) Over to youse guys!Chris


Yes, agree


sempervivens said:


> Still Zenith never had the Martel name removed from the building in Les-Ponts-de-Martel, although it was their property and it was the place where they produced all the chronographs, including the El Primero. So Zenith did the opposite from what Universal had done : although in 1941 Martel was still a separate entity, Universal put their name on the building; Zenith on the contrary, although they fully owned Martel, let the name Martel be there.


One might equally - or even more logically - conclude that Zenith and Universal were consistent - both left the Martel name on the building to commemorate an enterprise they had absorbed. Regardless, one does not know one way or the other. All of this awaits some kind of documentary evidence. As I see it, what we know is that there was a Martel SA in PdM, established in 1911. It became somehow associated with UG at the latest sometime in the 1950s, when it shared the cal 291 and the UG cal 285/Martel 749, and was sold to Zenith in 1959-60, bringing the 749 and a rotor automatic to Zenith. We also know that Zenith acquired the Universal Geneve factory built in 1941, very likely at the same time and as part of the same transaction.

I'll also point out something we haven't considered yet - that UG started to use Valjoux 72 engines for its Compax line around the time of the sale of the PdM plant, although the Tri-Compaxes continued to be made with UG calibers into the late 1960s and early 1970s. Thus, the PdM facility does not appear to have been the only site of manufacture of UG chronograph calibers.

We are left to explain why a building with Universal across the front represented the physical manifestation of Martel SA (which rather makes it look to me like UG was holding the leash at this point) and to understand the relationship between Martel and UG before 1941.


----------



## sempervivens

LouS said:


> no Martel movements until the 1950s.


No Martel movement _names _until the 1950's. The internal designation which Martel used for its chronograph caliber(s) is not as well known as the UG and Zenith names and numbers.

And yet, the Martel caliber number _is _known. You have said it, it is Martel caliber *749 *- at least in the 1950's it was called like that. 
We don't know yet what caliber designation they used in the 1930's. If not already cal. 749, it was probably something similar.

Martel was an anonymous stock corporation since 1911.

They were quite active in the 1920's, as demonstrated by Nicola with numerous documents.

Martel was an ébaucher, specialised in the creation and production of watch movements, and one of their speciality's were chronographs. these are all plain facts.

In 1929 came about a capital raise of 50 % from 100 to 150 thousand swiss franks. Martel nearly doubled in size. Fact.

The nature of an anonymous stock corporation is such that we cannot find out who owned that stock and where the investment came from. We can only presume. It is impossible to prove anything in this field.

It seems quite likely to me that in 1929-30 it was Universal who paid for that capital raise of the Martel company, which then allowed UG a controlling participation of 30 % of the Martel company.

This then allowed Martel Watch co to (further) develop the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers for Universal watch co.

Next Universal shared it (only) with Zenith. Why did they share it with Zenith ? To share the cost of the investments, there can hardly be another plausible reason. Zenith paid to have access to the first chronograph caliber with two pushers : in this way Zenith took part in the investments needed for a chronograph movement, which was continuously further developed by Martel in that context, from 1932 until 1944, from the first double pusher chronograph until the Tricompax.

Due to the high demand for the chronographs, in 1941 Martel got a new building on their old site. The investment was again (presumably) paid for by Universal and it was promoted as if the building was their own. Universal however (presumably) possessed only a third of the Martel stock, so technically they only owned part of (the company who owned) the building.

For Martel Universal became their only client from ca. 1930 onwards until an unknown date around 1950.

Zenith in this period (1932-1950) (presumably) got the chronographs through Universal, who (presumably) first cased the chronographs.



> We really don't know the nature of the relationship...


The relationships simply are, that Martel and Universal Genève were _independent stock corporations_, with one investing in the other and obtaining a controlling part of the stocks of the other.

Universal "presumably" owned one third of the stock of Martel, after the Martel capital raise in December 1929.

But we have proof that Martel in *1933 *was still led by its founder Georges Pellaton as president with his sons *Georges Pellaton-Perrelet *as vice-president and *René-Philippe Pellaton *as secretary.

Zenith and Universal were also independent stock corporations, which had however a working agreement and a joint administrator: Raoul Perret, who was president of Universal and on the board of administration of Zenith.

Zenith and Universal worked together in the chronograph field from the beginning of the two pusher chronograph in 1932, made by Martel. Zenith (presumably) had to pay and Universal delivered chronographs to them. Zenith and Universal advertised the chronographs together as well as separately. Zenith had no direct relationship with Martel until much later.

Later (ca. 1950's) Martel clearly had regained independence from Universal.

Perhaps Universal had sold their part of Martel stock back to the Martel owners (presumably still Pellaton family) in the early 1950's; maybe to help finance the Polerouter (1954) and the Universal Genève caliber *215 with micro-rotor (1955)*, "the thinnest automatic of its time".

As a result there was a short period in the 1950's when Martel was open again for new clients.

It lasted only a short time, since Martel was then bought and completely incorporated by Zenith (ca. 1958). Zenith bought the entire stock of Martel and the independent Martel watch co SA ceased to exist, it was incorporated by Zenith. Maybe the founding Pellaton family had decided to retire and that's why they sold their entire stock to the Zenith company.

A lot of perhaps and maybe's.

But we are certain : Martel Watch co in 1956 was still the same separate entity, an independent stock corporation "société anonyme", as it was founded in 1911. And we are certain it was Martel who made the two pusher chronographs for Universal and Zenith since 1932.



> you suddenly declare that the matter under consideration is general knowledge? Sala, Berthoud & Rivolta appear not to be in the know, nor Lang & Mies.


I don't know Sala, B&R & L&M personally, but I do surf around the internet occasionally.

If it is known on the internet, I would say that it is general knowledge.

This is an example of the essence which many seem to know already :
*
"Sometime in the thirties, Martel had developed a chronograph movement for **Universal** Genève.
With the takeover of Martel Watch, the caliber 749 - or the **Universal** 285 - became the **Zénith** caliber 146 family."*
(Zenith History - Watchchrono Magazine)

Or this :

"*Es war einmal....
in Neuchatel die Firma Martel Watch&Co., ein Rohwerkhersteller. Vintagefans kennen diesen Namen gewiss. In der Nachbarschaft gab es eine weitere, heute noch bekannntere Uhrenfirma, nämlich Universal Geneve.
Universal baute zwar eigene "normale" Kaliber, hatte aber keine Chronowerke zur Verfügung. 
Diese kauften sie von Martel zu. So auch das Kaliber 749. 
Dieses wurde also von Martel gebaut und für Universal Geneve reserviert . 
Dort firmierte es dann als Kaliber UG 285. Das war bereits in den dreissiger-Jahren des letzten Jahrhunderts. Viel später, im Jahr 1960 wurde Martel dann von Zenith aufgekauft. 
Und damit entstand aus dem Kaliber "Martel 749", bzw. "UG 285" dann das "Zenith 146" wie es in meiner Uhr tickt. Eine nette Odyssee. 
*(• Thema anzeigen - Wohl eine der schönsten Zenith´s)

To translate some of the saliant points:
*"Once upon a time... there was in Neuchâtel an ébaucher by the name of Martel watch co. Vintage fans know its name for sure. 
In its neighbourhood there was another ... watch company, by the name of Universal Geneve. 
Universal built its own "normal" calibers but didn't have chronograph movements at its disposal. These they bought from Martel. Including caliber 749. 
This was built by Martel and reserved for Universal Geneve, who then signed it as caliber 285.
That was already in the 1930's. Much later in 1960 Zenith bought the entire Martel company."

*Or this :
*"In 1960, Zenith acquired Martel Watch Company, a producer of movements for chronographs and other complicated watches (such as calendar and moonphase watches). Martel was well-known as the supplier of chronograph movements for Universal Geneve" (http://www.onthedash.com/docs/Project99.html)

*
These examples show that in this thread I have only brought together illustrations and clarifications concerning something which was essentially already part of general knowledge.



> I'll also point out something we haven't considered yet - that UG started to use Valjoux 72 engines for its Compax line around the time of the sale of the PdM plant,


That's another clear indication that the original Universal cal. 285 chronograph was Martel's creation _and _that it always remained Martel's property. Why would Universal start using Valjoux 72 if caliber 285 was their own property? Unfortunately for Universal they had sold their participation in Martel and lost the rights to their "own" caliber 285.



> We are left to explain why a building with Universal across the front represented the physical manifestation of Martel SA (which rather makes it look to me like UG was holding the leash at this point) and to understand the relationship between Martel and UG before 1941]


 As was suggested by Chris, the Universal name on the facade could have been there for purely promotional reasons. It does not imply necessarily that Universal was the owner of the building. More likely is that Martel remained the owner of its premises all the time. Technically Universal probably only owned a part of the owner of the building. As you suggest, Universal only "held the leash" at that time.

Approximately ten years later Martel (apparently) became fully independent from Universal again; and then some years later again Zenith bought the entire Martel company, including the building and all of the intellectual property rights for the chronograph and other movements, including the Victorious brand name and the rest of it.

The Martel building was (presumably) always in the Rue de l'Industrie, since 1911.

There is some speculation here and there in telling the story and connecting the facts together but it is on the other hand exceptionally well substantiated by solid facts and documents, most of which were brought to us by Nicola.

Nicola has delivered all of the evidence. Really, it is Nicola who has told the story, not by an abundance of words, but by means of proof only, in the form of authentic documentation from the past.


----------



## nicola1960

;-)









(courtesy of Fjodor (O.&.P), by "Wristwatch chronology", Brunner & Pfeiffer-Belli.


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> But we have proof that Martel in 1933 was still led by its founder Georges Pellaton as president with his sons *Georges Pellaton*-Perrelet as vice-president and René-Philippe Pellaton as secretary....
> 
> ...Later (ca. 1950's) Martel clearly had regained independence from Universal.
> 
> Perhaps Universal had sold their part of Martel stock back to the Martel owners (presumably* still Pellaton family*)...


----------



## LouS

Nicola, excellent! Is it possible to find if Martel had any patents related to chrongraph movements from 1917 to 1941? That would really clarify things....



sempervivens said:


> Martel was an anonymous stock corporation since 1911.
> 
> They were quite active in the 1920's, as demonstrated by Nicola with numerous documents.


Established, no argument.



sempervivens said:


> The nature of an anonymous stock corporation is such that we cannot find out who owned that stock and where the investment came from. We can only presume. It is impossible to prove anything in this field.


I don't think that's true. Look how much has already been proved by the newspaper items and patent records. Find UG naming a member to Martel's board, or even vice versa, and already something has been proved.



sempervivens said:


> It seems quite likely to me that in 1929-30 it was Universal who paid for that capital raise of the Martel company, which then allowed UG a controlling participation of 30 % of the Martel company.


Ok, an interesting speculation. Although 30% is not controlling. And we don't know that it was Universal. In any case, I like to think that there would be some evidence of this in the business press if nowhere else...



sempervivens said:


> Next Universal shared it (only) with Zenith....Zenith paid to have access to the first chronograph caliber with two pushers
> : in this way Zenith took part in the investments needed for a chronograph movement


It's not clear to me why you understand Zenith to have participated in the initial investment. My interpretation would be 'Universal *sold* the movements to Zenith....Zenith paid for the actual movements as they were delivered. In this way Universal recovered its capital investment' (regardless of who ultimately built the movements).



sempervivens said:


> Due to the high demand for the chronographs, in 1941 Martel got a new building on their old site. The investment was again (presumably) paid for by Universal and it was promoted as if the building was their own. Universal however (presumably) possessed only a third of the Martel stock, so technically they only owned part of (the company who owned) the building.


This hypothesis seems to me especially tortured, only because it seems extremely bizarre that a buyer (Universal in your model) would build a manufacturing plant for a supplier. But perhaps that is less bizarre than the supplier (Martel) building a facility and putting the client's name on it! This is the part of the relationship that begs most for clarification, and about which the records are least revealing. Did UG at this point acquire Martel, in the same way that, say, Montblanc acquired Minerva, and use them as a self-contained "in-house" expert?

Working backwards, it seems clear from the video that when Zenith bought Martel, it acquired the building that UG built in 1941. As Martel was actually producing watches under its own trademark for a brief time prior to this, and as the building had the Martel name on it, Martel seems to have replaced Universal as the primary tenant in that building at some point. Because some Martel intellectual property was shared with UG (cal 285, 291), it seems likely there was an association prior to that. But what was it? Who had the control, and for our interest, who had the design and creative initiative? Unresolved.



sempervivens said:


> Zenith in this period (1932-1950) (presumably) got the chronographs through Universal, who (presumably) first cased the chronographs.


I would say all the way to 1960 possibly, and there is no presumption about UG first casing them. Apart from Sala's archival evidence, we know the chronographs carried UG serial and reference numbers, not Zenith numbers.



sempervivens said:


> A lot of perhaps and maybe's.


A great many, and a few too many for me. We have different threshold for the tolerance of speculation.



sempervivens said:


> And we are certain it was Martel who made the two pusher chronographs for Universal and Zenith since 1932.


'We' are not, although you have convinced me of many things. Find a Martel patent, and we'll have evidence. The patent system was operating in 1932 - the document should exist in Switzerland of all places.



sempervivens said:


> If it is known on the internet, I would say that it is general knowledge.


Oi! You made a good point earlier about how half-truths and misapprehensions are promulgated on in the internet without substantiation, one person copying from another. And it is not only the internet. I am always surprised in my own field to learn how many so called facts begin with someone of supposed authority making an unsupported statement from a rostrum that gets repeated by people who do not do their own investigation. I suggest we not feed that beast, especially as it appears likely some documentation could exist.



sempervivens said:


> That's another clear indication that the original Universal cal. 285 chronograph was Martel's creation _and _that it always remained Martel's property. Why would Universal start using Valjoux 72 if caliber 285 was their own property? Unfortunately for Universal they had sold their participation in Martel and lost the rights to their "own" caliber 285.


Well, except that UG continued to make Tri-Compaxes with a very similar base caliber (cal 281) into the 1970s. Where were those produced after Martel passed into the hands of Zenith?



sempervivens said:


> The Martel building was (presumably) always in the Rue de l'Industrie, since 1911.


remind me where we have this address from? I've lost track of this part.



sempervivens said:


> There is some speculation here and there in telling the story and connecting the facts together but it is on the other hand exceptionally well substantiated by solid facts and documents, most of which were brought to us by Nicola.
> 
> Nicola has delivered all of the evidence. Really, it is Nicola who has told the story, not by an abundance of words, but by means of proof only, in the form of authentic documentation from the past.


Well, certainly full credit to Nicolas who speaks in pictures and conveys more information that I do in English! I think you deserve credit too, and some grains of knowledge were gleaned from the Vermot video, and the UG and chronograph books. I think you've done something very substantial here, even if I am not such a big fan of speculation. Although piecemeal, this might just be the most complete history of the Martel-UG-Zenith _tourbillon _(in the original sense of 'whirlwind') extant. AND we now know exactly what we are looking for. I suggest it is
1. Martel patents from 1932 to 1941, heck let's say 1917 to 1941
2. notices of stock exchanges, board membership, etc. between UG and Martel in the period 1917 to 1941 and again in the late 1940 and early 1950s.
3. any evidence for UG production facilities in PdM prior to 1941


----------



## sempervivens

Next you'll ask us to prove that the sun also rises :-d. Seriously, I don't see the need for further proof. The only thing torturous I see here is you trying to reconcile the fact that it was Martel who made the chronographs, with your previous belief that it was Universal who made the chronographs themselves. Apparently Sala held that information back from you.



> It's not clear to me why you understand Zenith to have participated in the initial investment.


 I didn't suggest Zenith participated in the initial investment before 1932. It is possible, but I wouldn't presume that. But starting around 1932, Zenith paid to get the chronographs and thus helped in the investments. Zenith also shared the costs of advertising the new chronographs with Universal. Zenith helped to launch the new product. Because making a new product requires investments; but launching it on the market still requires more investments.

Presumably Universal had 30 % in Martel from ca. 1929 until ca. 1954. When you say that 30 % of the stock of a company is not a controlling participation, do you speak as an expert in stock corporations or do you at least have some knowledge about them? Because I seem to remember that 30 % of the stock of a company can give you a lot of powers in a stock corporation (for instance "veto rights").



> Martel seems to have replaced Universal as the primary tenant in that building at some point. Because some Martel intellectual property was shared with UG (cal 285, 291), it seems likely there was an association prior to that. But what was it? Who had the control, and for our interest, who had the design and creative initiative? Unresolved


Martel was always the only tenant /owner of the building in Les Ponts-de-Martel since 1911. They were there in 1911 and they were still there in 1958. Universal never owned Martel nor the building. Why is that so difficult to understand? Universal only helped in financing Martel, including their new, modernised building in 1941.
The design and creative work to make the chronographs, was entirely Martel's. 
Universal helped to finance Martel, presumably since 1929. In exchange Universal got exclusivity. 
It was a partnership which lasted twenty years (ca. 1930-1950). 
Universal during this period had some control over Martel, presumably by holding 30 % of the stock of Martel (which can be seen as an insurance in exchange for their investments in Martel).

The address of Martel in the rue de l'Industrie is mentioned in the 1914 document (from the swiss fédération horlogère).

Why ask for patents ? It is clear that Martel held the intellectual rights for the chronograph movement. Otherwise those rights could not have been included in the 1959 acquisition of the Martel company by Zenith. 
Of course additional documentation is always welcome, but it is not necessary.

At this point, I'm only wondering about what you say : that Universal still made the Tricompax in the 1960's. Did Universal obtain the intellectual rights for the Tricompax from Martel ? or could it have been that Universal Geneve in the 1960's simply used up an old stock of Tricompax movements?


----------



## nicola1960

LouS said:


> Nicola, excellent! Is it possible to find if Martel had any patents related to chrongraph movements from 1917 to 1941? That would really clarify things....


At your order, Sir! :-d


----------



## LouS

Brilliant Nicola!

Does the brevet have any more information about details of the movement?


----------



## Gombrich

Blimey, you lot have been busy. I tried to follow this from the start but got brain-boggle after the first few posts. Hopefully a useful summary of the various points will follow once the issues have been thrashed out.

Dave


----------



## nicola1960

LouS said:


> Brilliant Nicola!
> 
> Does the brevet have any more information about details of the movement?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Gombrich said:


> Blimey, you lot have been busy. I tried to follow this from the start but got brain-boggle after the first few posts. Hopefully a useful summary of the various points will follow once the issues have been thrashed out.
> 
> Dave


Tell me about it! I'm the poor sod who has to _moderate _all this!! So, no skipping over posts or reading between the lines. And all that just at the point where I get another forum and Dan is away on sick leave..... :-(

Hartmut Richter


----------



## v76

Amazing collection of documentation by nicola, thank you! But, it still seems like it hasn't been conclusively proven that Martel was the "invisible" hand developing/supplying movements to UG between 1917-1941 like you guys (Lou and SV) have been back-and-forthing.

I must say though that the discussion has been great, and I've learned a lot in the past few days.


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Tell me about it! I'm the poor sod who has to _moderate _all this!! So, no skipping over posts or reading between the lines. And all that just at the point where I get another forum and Dan is away on sick leave..... :-(
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Dan perhaps would have taken the wise decision and closed the thread immediately. But it had to happen like this.



> Blimey, you lot have been busy. I tried to follow this from the start but got brain-boggle after the first few posts. Hopefully a useful summary of the various points will follow once the issues have been thrashed out.
> 
> Dave


Nice to hear that you guys have been following. I agree, it has become too long, it's all to blame on me entering in discussion with LouS, who has played his role as advocate of the devil well.

Nicola, the supporter of Martel, has convinced me long ago.

To those still in doubt, I would say : you can't keep doubting forever.

But on the other hand it was also for Lou, who didn't know the history of Martel, that I wrote it. And it is also thanks to Lou, that more information and documentation has come up.

I analysed the last addition - the content of the 1937 Martel chronograph patent - and understood that this is "only" a patent for an improvement in _a part _of the chronograph. It is about an invention which allows easier construction and layout of the chronograph, because as a result wheel n° 12 could be positioned more freely.

Before and after this there must have been many more chronograph patents by Martel.

So from one point of view you may conclude that this is still not a conclusive proof that the whole Universal chronograph caliber was Martel's creation.

The more proof is gathered, the more you can keep asking. Next you can ask to see _all t_he patents. Or at least the more important ones.

But from another point of view there has already been delivered enough proof to establish beyond a _reasonable _doubt that the _old knowledge _that it was Martel, who made the famous chronographs for Universal and Zenith, is entirely correct.


----------



## LouS

Gombrich said:


> Blimey, you lot have been busy. I tried to follow this from the start but got brain-boggle after the first few posts. Hopefully a useful summary of the various points will follow once the issues have been thrashed out.
> 
> Dave


Well, let me have a go. SV will chime in if I misrepresent anything.

Martel Watch was established in 1911. For 20 years, they did little but ring the doorbell at the Universal Geneve works in nearby Le Locle and run away. When the telephone was installed in this part of Switzerland, they would call M. Raoul Perret both at work and at home and hang up. Universal eventually moved away from the area because of this relentless nuisance, becoming Universal Geneve. Sometime in the early 30s, the Martel boys found a rusty UG ebauche in the abandoned UG factory. Taking advantage of an administrative oversight on thepart of UG, they patented it, and then used it to prop a wonky leg on the table in the Martel clubhouse. This allowed them to return to their endless games of pinochle. In 1938, tired of the overgrown lawn and broken bottles on the sidewalk in front of the Martel works, the community of Ponts de Martel issued a notice of eviction. It took the prefet de police another two years to actually find a Martel director to serve the warrant, when he was picked up for vagrancy and suspicious activities in a nearby sheep pasture. Universal bought the property, demolished the building and set up an actual watch movement factory.

It wasn't long before the Martel guys were back to their old shenanigans, letting the air out of the tires in the cars in the UG employee parking lot, stealing the decorative shrubbery on the UG grounds, etc. They were back in police custody within the year. Martel Watch was created as a vocational rehabilitation program by the municipality to prevent the Martel boys from falling back into a life of petty crime. They were given a sorry brand name 'Victorious' and a crappy movement to work with. The employees being who they were, it was not long before inventory went missing from the UG plant down the road. On the sales side, reps fanned out to every fleabag seaport in Southern europe and pioneered 'streetcorner marketing,' selling the latest models from the inside of their trenchcoats. Profits flowed back to Ponts de Martel in a dozen discredited and devalued currencies, further inventory went missing from UG and the product line expanded.

It was the legendary Chaux de Fonds poker game of September 21, 1958 that resulted in the transfer of Martel assets to Zenith in circumstances that remain mysterious to this day.

Have I got it right?



Hartmut Richter said:


> Tell me about it! I'm the poor sod who has to _moderate _all this!! So, no skipping over posts or reading between the lines. And all that just at the point where I get another forum and Dan is away on sick leave..... :-(
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I'm shocked...shocked I tell you...that you don't trust us!:-(


----------



## sempervivens

"We want....a *shrubbery*!!!"


----------



## Gombrich

Thanks Lou, that's much clearer.:-d

Dave


----------



## nicola1960




----------



## LouS

Nicola,

this gets better and better. I am tremendously impressed at your ability to find exactly he most revealing material. The US Patent office document is crystal clear. 

Is it possible to find the Martel patent for their simple two-pusher chronograph model?


----------



## sempervivens

Incredible. Where do you find it Nicola ? 
A Universal patent for a Martel invention. An indication that the inventions from the 1940's - the first chronograph with date and the Tricompax - may also have been Universal patents and intellectual property.

Now we know of at least four Pellatons behind the Martel watch co, Georges Pellaton-Steudler, the founder, and his sons Georges Pellaton-Perrelet, René-Philippe Pellaton and (here) the inventor *Raoul *Pellaton.


----------



## nicola1960

LouS said:


> Nicola,
> 
> this gets better and better. I am tremendously impressed at your ability to find exactly he most revealing material. The US Patent office document is crystal clear.
> 
> Is it possible to find the Martel patent for their simple two-pusher chronograph model?


I apologize, but with this photo I have exhausted my resources. :-(
I hope of to have helped you. ;-)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

LouS said:


> I'm shocked...shocked I tell you...that you don't trust us!:-(


Ah, well.........trust is good - but control is better!!!!! b-)

Hartmut Richter


----------



## LouS

Well, it has been a remarkable thread, so it deserves a serious effort at summary, so here goes. Jump in if I get it wrong.

The matter of the thread is the relationship between Martel, UG and Zenith. It is contended that Martel was the supplier of chronograph movements to UG, and via UG to Zenith. 

Martel was established in Ponts de Martel in 1911, not far from Le Locle, were Zenith and at that time Universal have already been in business for a few decades. Various documentations demonstrate that Martel produced chronographs under its own name in the 1920s and remained in operation through the 1920s and 1930s. In the early 1930s, Zenith and Universal began to jointly promote a two pusher chronograph, the first of its type. Raoul Perret, the director of Universal - headquartered in Geneva by this time, was also on the board of directors of Zenith, offering evidence of some shared management between the two firms. It is hypothesized that Martel provided the movement for this and later chronographs produced by the two firms. Although no direct documentary evidence exists of this particular fact, the close relationship between Martel and Universal is clear from later patent records. Archival evidence from UG, as well as Zenith pieces sporting case numbers and reference numbers in UG format rather than Zenith format, suggests that Zenith obtained its watches complete from UG rather than simply ebauches. 

In 1941, UG built a new state of the art production facility in Ponts de Martel for the manufacture of chronographs. The capital investment appears to have been made in large part because of the sizeable and reliable demand from Zenith. Patent records from the US indicate that the Aero-Compax movement, introduced at this time and manufactured at the PdM facility, was a Martel design, assigned by that firm to UG. It is now clear that Martel is producing movements for UG, very probably in the factory built in PdM.

Advertising evidence reveals that sometime in the late 1940s or early 1950s, Martel began to produce watches under its own trademark, namely an automatic time-only watch called the Victorious and a Triple calendar moonphase which is also produced under the UG trademark, powered by the caliber known as the 291 in the UG movement roster. 

In 1958 or 1959, Zenith acquired Martel, bringing the cal 146 (Martel 749/UG 285), as well as the 25x2 automatic movements and the "Vicrorious" name into its portfolio. From the Charles Vermot video on the Zenith website, it is clear that it acquires the former UG building in PdM, apparently the Martel physical plant, in the deal. Around this same time, UG begins to use Valjoux 72s in its simple chronographs, suggesting that with the acquisition of Martel by Zenith, it lost access to their own movements for these pieces. However, it does continue to produce Tri-Compaxes to the very late 1960s-early 1970s with its own cal 281 movement from the same family as the 285. It is not entirely clear how UG retains the use of this movement - possibilities include continued production by UG, acquisition under licence from Zenith, or use of movements already stockpiled. 

Thus, to summarize the summary, UG appears to have had a very close and apparently exclusive relationship with Martel, to the extent of holding patents for that firm's innovations, acquiring their output, and probably housing Martel personnel and production on its premises by 1941 and possibly before. Martel appears to have preserved some independent identity however, even as it served as the source of "in-house" chronograph movements for UG. Zenith appears to have obtained much of its early chronograph volume from UG, and the two firms co-marketed for a time. At some point in the late 1940s-1950s, Martel began to operate independently out of the former UG facility in Ponts de Martel, but was acquired by Zenith in 1959 or so, at which time UG evidently had to turn to other sources for chronograph ebauches.

Howzat?


----------



## sempervivens

Slowly you're getting there ;-) Most importantly, we now agree that the chronographs were Martel's creations.

But I could criticize several points here. And I should, since you've also been critical.



> in 1911, ... Universal [had] already been in business for a few decades.


Universal was founded in 1894, only 17 years before Martel, not exactly 'decades'.



> Zenith pieces sporting case numbers and reference numbers in UG format rather than Zenith format


 Well put. This is a theory, but has not been proven. Could be interesting to explore.



> In 1941, UG built a new state of the art production facility in Ponts de Martel for the manufacture of chronographs. The capital investment appears to have been made in large part because of the sizeable and reliable demand from Zenith.


Why do you say the demand was coming mainly from Zenith ? In part there must have been demand from Zenith, but more chronographs in this period may have been made under the Universal name.

And above all, why do you think that UG owned the building in les Ponts-de-Martel ? Because Sala says it was theirs ? But Sala apparently doesn't mention Martel at all: too complicated to tell the whole story and therefore Sala simplified it to 'Universal made their chronographs in a separate production facility in les Ponts-de-Martel', without mentioning that it was actually a different company (Martel) who made the chronographs.

It seems more likely that Martel owned their own building. Martel must have had its own premises somewhere, from 1911 until 1958. We know that Martel owned the building around 1958 when they were sold to Zenith. So it is likely that Martel _always _owned that building. Otherwise we have to invent a theory that "at a certain point Martel sold their own building to Universal, who later constructed a new building on the same site in 1941, which they later sold back to Martel ". Why make it so difficult ? Can't it be much simpler : Martel owned a building since 1911. In 1941 Universal paid (or helped to pay) a new building for Martel on the same site. Universal in exchange didn't get ownership of the building - which would have been of no use to them - but it got something much more valuable in exchange : the intellectual rights, the patents. We have seen it documented that in the 1940's Universal got patents for Martel's inventions.

This could also have included the patent for the Tricompax. This would explain why UG could still make the Tricompax in the 1960's (and also why Zenith didn't make any Tricompax in the 1960's).

Martel may have sold the patent for the Tricompax to Universal : it is not 100 % proven but at this point I find it likely.



> Advertising evidence reveals that sometime in the late 1940s or early 1950s, Martel began to produce watches under its own trademark


The advertisements I know of date to 1956, which is second half of the 1950's, not exactly 'late 1940's or early 1950's.'



> Martel appears to have preserved some independent identity


That is an understatement. Martel always remained an independent stock corporation, separate from Universal, and led by different people.



> UG... probably housing Martel personnel and production on its premises by 1941 and possibly before.


Again you suggest that the Martel building in les Ponts-de-Martel was owned by Universal, and Martel was Universal's tenant. But there is no proof for that. Martel and Universal were separate companies. Martel had its company seat in Les Ponts-de-Martel and Universal had its seat in Geneva. I think the building in les Ponts-de-Martel remained Martel property all the time. In that theory Universal only helped financing the construction of a new building for Martel in Les Ponts-de-Martel in 1941. For promotional reasons Universal had their name on the new building (for some time), but it remained Martel's property. UG was rewarded with patent rights for Martel's new chronograph inventions in the 1940's. There is no proof for this theory either. But it is this or 'Universal bought the premises from Martel and Martel became the tenant of Universal Geneve until later they bought the building back from Universal'.

Another suggestion : if Universal owned a participation in the stock of Martel (before I have suggested they maybe owned 30 % since 1929), it seems this is already enough to be considered _a holding company_. If it owned enough voting stock, it could be considered a parent company.


----------



## John Chris

I still think Martel always owned the PdM building(s), and popped "UNIVERSAL" on the new one because they had a contract from UG for the manufacture of movements for UG, and that's what the building was for. 

Later, Martel changed its name to Mattel and began making toys in the USA. Everyone knows this! :-d


----------



## georges zaslavsky

a very good read:-! thanks for sharing everyone


----------



## sempervivens

1937 ad, only a small pic. Still, one can read the text.



> 432000 oscillations a day, equal to 13.000 km a year, is what the balance of a watch performs.
> Only a high class product like the Zenith can undergo a similar effort and be MATHEMATICALLY PRECISE.
> 
> Artistic catalog n° 4 with 50 different models will be sent free of charge, asking for it at the propaganda office "ZENITH-UNIVERSAL" postbox 7987 Milan.


----------



## Tick Talk

What a gold mine this thread has been in my research on Martel as a supplier of chronograph ebauches to other "names" in the Swiss watch industry! Many thanks to all who have contributed  Here is an example of a Martel 13 ligne 2-reg chrono ebauche supplied to Vacheron & Constantin from 1937 to 1940.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Tick Talk said:


> What a gold mine this thread has been in my research on Martel as a supplier of chronograph ebauches to other "names" in the Swiss watch industry! Many thanks to all who have contributed  Here is an example of a Martel 13 ligne 2-reg chrono ebauche supplied to Vacheron & Constantin from 1937 to 1940.


Thanks for your kind words and thanks for the shot of the nice Martel!!

:-!

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Thank you.

I'd be curious to learn more about the Martel - V&C chronographs. Did V & C change the bridge ? And what case did they use ? Do you think UG or Zenith acted as a go between ?

Here is a pic of an early Zenith example :


----------



## Tick Talk

V&C pretty well standardized on 13 ligne chronograph movements until the 1970s. To this date they have not manufactured their own chrono wristwatch ebauche, although one is currently under development. Beginning in 1915, Reymond Freres was the major supplier, followed by Martel, then Valjoux 22 and 23-based ebauches. In fact, all three were in use within different models during the 1930s and 40s!Victorin Piguet provided chronographs with complications on special order. Sorry but I cannot tell you if the chronograph bridge was added by Martel or V&C.


----------



## LouS

sempervivens said:


> I'd be curious to learn more about the Martel - V&C chronographs. Did V & C change the bridge ?


Sala has but a single page on V&C, in which he states that the movements were not modified at all, but V&C did add refinements in finish such as beveling. The bridge in the example above is a standard UG shape, FWIW


----------



## sempervivens

Lou, I don't quite understand, what does Sala say about it : that V & C got the movements from UG ? 

Thank you Tick Talk, for that additional information. Allow me to me add (for those who may not be aware of it) that Reymond Frères (founded in 1901) is the same chronograph manufacturer which later (in 1929) was renamed Valjoux. 

Anybody knows if there were more companies who used the Martel Watch co chronograph movements, besides Universal Geneve, Vacheron & Constantin and Zenith?


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> Lou, I don't quite understand, what does Sala say about it : that V & C got the movements from UG ?
> 
> Thank you Tick Talk, for that additional information. Allow me to me add (for those who may not be aware of it) that Reymond Frères (founded in 1901) is the same chronograph manufacturer which later (in 1929) was renamed Valjoux.
> 
> Anybody knows if there were more companies who used the Martel Watch co chronograph movements, besides Universal Geneve, Vacheron & Constantin and Zenith?


Jaeger LeCoultre (Jaeger, LeCoultre)


----------



## LouS

sempervivens said:


> Lou, I don't quite understand, what does Sala say about it : that V & C got the movements from UG ?
> 
> Anybody knows if there were more companies who used the Martel Watch co chronograph movements, besides Universal Geneve, Vacheron & Constantin and Zenith?


Yes, V&C got the movements from Universal. He also lists Girrard Perregaux and Jaeger as clients of Universal, with photographic images from the factory archives in support.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

I should add that the most recent (manual) chronograph movements used by VC were from Lemania. Presumably now that Lemania are in the Swatch group (VC are in Richemond) and have become sole manufacturers for Breguet (they changed their name from Nouvelle Lemania to the Manufacture Breguet), VC are not likely to get new stocks of these movements.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Some screenshots of the* Martel *watch co building and *Charles Vermot*.


























In the last pic he is about to say that when he asked permission to save the tools to make the El Primero, the company management probably thought about him as 'ce petit Monsieur Vermot de Ponts-de-Martel'. 
("that little mister Vermot from Ponts-de-Martel")

The permission was denied.

The first pic shown of Mr. Vermot is where he quotes his colleagues, who told him back then in the 1970's: "_Il faut que tu sors de ta caisse, tu fais rire avec ton chronographe automatique_". ("You should get out of your box, you make a laughing-stock of yourself with your automatic chronograph")

His colleagues were also against it.

It is good to stick to what you believe is right, even if it means you have to go against the current, against all others.


----------



## D N Ravenna

I tried to fix your picture links sempervivens, but could not do so.
Sorry!
Dan


----------



## sempervivens

D N Ravenna said:


> I tried to fix your picture links sempervivens, but could not do so.
> Sorry!
> Dan


Thanks Dan. I fixed the pics.


----------



## D N Ravenna

Now I do, but not on the orginal post.

Thanks!

Dan


----------



## sempervivens

Here is one more screenshot from the documentary "le retour du tic-tac".









What you see is the foot of the Martel building, with in front of it a truck of the food company who took over the building, after Zenith sold it ca. 1975.
Apparently this food company was named "Du Martel" : perhaps they chose this name, because it allowed them to keep the Martel name on the building.









Keep it in mind if you ever go on a pilgrimage to les Ponts-de-Martel : this is the place where the El Primero was created and produced. This in fact is the place where they made all Zenith chronographs.

(And the Universal Geneve chronographs, the Vacheron & Constantin chronographs and the Jaeger-LeCoultre chronographs).


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Just to add to this thread a little: today, I finally managed to get a copy of the latest "ArmbandUhren" (German watch magazine). One reason why I bought it was a special "Vintage" article which they sometimes have (but not always) - this one on Zenith automatics! I.e. the Cal. 25xx series. Quite an interesting read. I can't vouch for the statements made but I presume that they were well researched (the article is by Michael P. Horlbeck, who is also the author of the German book on wrist alarms: "_Der Armbandwecker - Geschichte einer unterschätzten Komplikation_"). Among the sztatements were:

1. In the late forties, Martel Watch Co. was owned by Universal Geneve

2. In the fifties, Martel had received the order from UG to develop an automatic chronograph movement for UG "and it's partner Movado"

3. Martel was sold by UG to Zenith since they were't doing too well and needed a cash injection

4. The 25xx series was commissioned by Zenith from Martel before the take over in 1959-60 [personal note. presumably because they were geographically close and Zenith was getting movements from them anyway - but this may just be conjection]

5. When Zenith and Movado (and Mondia) joined in 1969, Movado were the "upper class" brand in the group. Zenith grew in renown only in the seventies.

On the whole, the article is quite interesting and gives some of the technical details of the movements. The Cal. 2572 has a quick date setting which works exactly the same as the El Primero: Pos. 0 for winding, Pos. 1 for setting the watch and Pos. 2 for the date setting. The reason for this is that the date quickset was added _post hoc_ and made possible by an extra wheel on the winding stem which was outside the normal crown-and-castle wheel. Maybe the same techical solution was devised for the El Primero which led to this sort of arrangement?!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> I can't vouch for the statements made but I presume that they were well researched


if the author does not state any source for his statements it may all be conjecture ; if it was well researched, why wouldn't he mention his sources;



> Among the statements were:
> 
> 1. In the late forties, Martel Watch Co. was owned by Universal Geneve


If Martel was completely owned by Universal Geneve, it would normally have been incorporated (as Zenith did around 1960).
It remains therefore much more likely IMO that UG owned only an important participation, a controlling interest in Martel, but not the complete company.



> 2. In the fifties, Martel had received the order from UG to develop an automatic chronograph movement for UG "and it's partner Movado"


Movado was UG's partner ? The automatic chronograph was actually UG's idea already launched in the fifties ? I don't know about the first, but the second I find rather unlikely, since UG was occupied with the Polerouter, Martel on the contrary around 1955 apparently regained complete independence from UG, and thirdly there is no indication whatsoever that Martel already started developing an automatic chronograph in the 1950's.



> 3. Martel was sold by UG to Zenith since they were't doing too well and needed a cash injection


This seems only a logical result of the previous conjecture that UG completely owned Martel. If you first state that UG completely owned Martel, then the next logical conjecture is that it was UG who sold Martel to Zenith. But on the contrary, we have seen it illustrated in this thread that in the 1950's (at least after 1955) Martel was clearly acting independently, with their own patents, their own advertisements and their own watches. So it remains more likely IMO that UG sold their participation in Martel earlier in the 1950's. To whom ? Possibly UG sold their part of the Martel stock back to the founders and owners of Martel - the Pellaton family.



> 4. The 25xx series was commissioned by Zenith from Martel before the take over in 1959-60 [personal note. presumably because they were geographically close and Zenith was getting movements from them anyway - but this may just be conjection]


I can only repeat that according to the caliber list in Roessler, Zenith started already in 1958 with the Martel 25xx series. But we don't even have an exact date for the takeover by Zenith, so it is possible that the takeover itself already took place in 1958.

We know that Martel was already advertising their new automatic movements in 1956 under their own name, so it is unlikely that it was Zenith who had commisioned Martel to create it for them.



> 5. When Zenith and Movado (and Mondia) joined in 1969, Movado were the "upper class" brand in the group. Zenith grew in renown only in the seventies.


From my perception, Zenith has always been a bigger name than Movado, except in America. Or in other words, Movado was only big in America, Zenith was a big name in several European countries. 
In the 1970's Zenith did not grow in renown, on the contrary, it went down.



> On the whole, the article is quite interesting and gives some of the technical details of the movements. The Cal. 2572 has a quick date setting which works exactly the same as the El Primero: Pos. 0 for winding, Pos. 1 for setting the watch and Pos. 2 for the date setting. The reason for this is that the date quickset was added _post hoc_ and made possible by an extra wheel on the winding stem which was outside the normal crown-and-castle wheel. Maybe the same techical solution was devised for the El Primero which led to this sort of arrangement?!


On the whole I find the article lacks any foundation. It is interesting that somebody wrote an article about Martel and UG and Zenith in the first place, but there it ends. I would expect some serious sources for such an article, not so many statements that seem mere conjecture and are even going against facts which we have seen illustrated by Nicola.

The technical details about the movements are perhaps the best part.
I already thought the relationship between the date system in the El Primero and in the 25xx series was rather obvious. It seems that not only the date quickset but the whole date system was added 'post hoc' to the movement, it is somewhat external to the movement. It is the weakest part in both movements. A problematic detail is for instance the 'instantaneous date change' : this system is apparently rather delicate and difficult to service and as a result it often becomes 'non instantaneous' after service. That is also a common characteristic for both the 25xx series and the El Primero.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for your reply.



sempervivens said:


> if the author does not state any source for his statements it may all be conjecture ; if it was well researched, why wouldn't he mention his sources;


Here, I would have to disagree. "ArmbandUhren" is a glossy magazine and makes no pretence at a scientific approach. You never see any quotations and sources in any of the articles printed there.



sempervivens said:


> The technical details about the movements are perhaps the best part.
> I already thought the relationship between the date system in the El Primero and in the 25xx series was rather obvious. It seems that not only the date quickset but the whole date system was added 'post hoc' to the movement, it is somewhat external to the movement. It is the weakest part in both movements. A problematic detail is for instance the 'instantaneous date change' : this system is apparently rather delicate and difficult to service and as a result it often becomes 'non instantaneous' after service. That is also a common characteristic for both the 25xx series and the El Primero.


I have never taken an El Primero apart but I must say that I never had any cause to complain about the date mechanism in mine - and it supports a full calendar plus moonphase! And it is one of the most instantaneous calendars in all my watches....

The rest of your comments I can live with - they certainly make sense. Thanks again for contributing.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## D N Ravenna

Hartmut Richter said:


> <<snip>>
> I have never taken an El Primero apart but I must say that I never had any cause to complain about the date mechanism in mine - and it supports a full calendar plus moonphase! And it is one of the most instantaneous calendars in all my watches....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


My biggest issue with the EP date change has been, and will always ever be, that you have to go past the time setting position to set it. So on a month like April that has only 30 days, you have to risk upsetting your time setting to change the date. One reason why I never wear my EP FB during end of months. On my other watches, one click past the zero position and you can change the date w/o messing with the time.

The EP FB is still a fantastic watch. Just a feature I care less for.

Cheers!

Dan


----------



## nicola1960

Congratulations to everybody.;-)


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Here, I would have to disagree. "ArmbandUhren" is a glossy magazine and makes no pretence at a scientific approach. You never see any quotations and sources in any of the articles printed there.
> 
> I have never taken an El Primero apart but I must say that I never had any cause to complain about the date mechanism in mine - and it supports a full calendar plus moonphase! And it is one of the most instantaneous calendars in all my watches....
> 
> The rest of your comments I can live with - they certainly make sense. Thanks again for contributing.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thanks to you too Hartmut. Well, one could expect articles in a glossy to carry illustrations of what they are claiming.

You never encountered any problems with your Chronomaster's date mechanism : I'm not saying it is that problematic that it will _always _cause problems, on the contrary : the date mechanism can _sometimes _cause _slight _problems and therefore seems to be the more vulnerable part in the otherwise rock-solid mechanism. An example is a non-instantaneous date change - which is obviously not a big problem, on the contrary, something I can live with. Another example is what Dan mentions and what every El Primero manual mentions : one should be careful when changing the date.

Thank you Nicola for yet another wonderful illustration !

Apparently Martel in 1924 already had a lot to offer, including a 16''' wristwatch-chronograph ("bracelet-chronographe"); a thin 17''' pocketwatch ("remontoir simple plat"); and 17''' and 19''' pocket watches (lepine and savonettes) with chronograph and repetition complications.


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> ...
> On the whole, the article is quite interesting and gives some of the technical details of the movements. The Cal. 2572 has a quick date setting which works exactly the same as the El Primero: Pos. 0 for winding, Pos. 1 for setting the watch and Pos. 2 for the date setting. The reason for this is that the date quickset was added _post hoc_ and made possible by an extra wheel on the winding stem which was outside the normal crown-and-castle wheel. Maybe the same techical solution was devised for the El Primero which led to this sort of arrangement?!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Discussed this with my watchmaker today : caliber 2572 PC indeed has a _unique _system for the date quickset, with an extra wheel on the winding stem (as described in the article by Michael P. Horlbeck).

The similarity with the date quickset for the El Primero however is only in outward appearance (that is: Pos. 1 of the crown for setting the watch and Pos. 2 for the date setting). 
Internally the El Primero has a different system for the date quickset. Though we know the calibers 25x2 and 3019 were both designed by Martel, they are completely different.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the extra information! Good to know. Yes, despite others claiming that there are similarities, I was always aware that the El Primero Cal. 3019 was never developed from the Cal. 25x2 series.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Some more information for the thread :

note that the early Martel chronographs of course did not use incabloc. Although incabloc was invented around the early '30s, it certainly was not used systematically in the '30s.
Incabloc came into use gradually : in the 1940's some watches got it, but still many did without. For some time Swiss companies (like Zenith) kept making watches without shockproofing while they made others with shockproofing. 
This went on until ca. 1955, after which they stopped making watches without shockproofing.
The same may have been true for Martel chronographs = i.e. for some time, say starting in the 1940's, Martel may have made chronographs with or without incabloc and only after 1955 they all had incabloc.
In 1969 - the last production year of the handwound Zenith Martel chronographs - came another late development : cal. 146 D*P* and 146 H*P.
*The P probably stands for 'plat' (French for flat) : indicating the use of a flatter coil. This version also used Kif instead of incabloc and had a glucydur balance.

Here is a drawing of caliber 146H:


----------



## John Chris

I thought (and still believe) that the "P" stands for "parachoc", and indicates the use of a shockproofing system. No?


----------



## sempervivens

John Chris said:


> I thought (and still believe) that the "P" stands for "parachoc", and indicates the use of a shockproofing system. No?


No. Here are some reasons why it is a mistake to think that the "P" refers to the shockdevice:

- Parashock exists, but it is the name of a shockdevice by Citizen;
- Zenith never used the suffix "P" to indicate the use of a shockdevice;
- in the period when Zenith made watches with and without shockdevice (ca. 1934-1955) Zenith did use a suffix to indicate the presence of a shockdevice : 
the suffix used was always "-*6*"; for instance caliber 126-6 ;
- Zenith did use the suffix "P" in the same period (1934-55) but this was only to indicate a movement with a different edge, for instance caliber 126-P; the explanation usually is that P here stands for "pincé";

Later in the 1960's Zenith used the suffix "P" to indicate automatic watches (usually explained as P for "Perpétuel"): for instance caliber 2542PC, cal. 3019PHC.

But in 1969 Zenith also made the handwound Martel caliber 146DP and cal. 146HP. 
So what does the "P" mean here ?

Roessler only mentions (p. 210) that cal. 146DP has "*Flat coil and shock protection, from 1969*."

Indeed, the cal. 146DP and 146HP must date to 1969, because if you see a Zenith chronograph with cal. 146DP or 146HP, they always have caseback serial numbers from the period ca. 1969 (except the Cairelli's, which don't have Zenith serial numbers).

But the "P" surely does not refer to "1969". And the "P" does not refer to the shockdevice either.

Because the caliber 146 already had shock protection long before this. You can find numerous examples of cal. 146 D from the 1960's with incabloc.

So Roessler should have mentioned that the version caliber 146P only had a _different _shockdevice (namely Kif instead of Incabloc).

Indeed one can see in pictures of cal. 146D and cal. 146DP that whereas cal. 146D uses incabloc, caliber 146DP instead has Kif.
















Therefore the only logical and only remaining explanation for the "P" in caliber 146 DP is that it refers to the Flat coil (P for French "Plat" = flat).

This explanation I read both on an Italian forum and on a German forum and I believe it is correct.

The German forum also mentioned that cal. 146DP uses Kif instead of incabloc and has a glucydur balance wheel. Again, I think it is correct.

The Italian forum pointed out that cal. 146DP also has a different system for adjustment, which seems correct as well.

To conclude I'd like to mention the famous Zenith Cairelli, which uses cal. 146DP. 
Still one often reads the mistake that 'the Cairelli was made starting in the early sixties'. 
On the contrary, the movement cal. 146DP was only made in 1969 and moreover the dials and cases for the Cairelli were only made in 1970 
On 11th March 1970 Zenith ordered 2500 dials for the Cairelli from their fournisseur Lindner.

You can read it here : • Thema anzeigen - Wohl eine der schönsten Zenith´s


> 146P bzw. 146DP = (Plat) Flachspirale ohne Spiralklötzchen, Glucydurunruh, Kif-Stoßsicherung,19800 a/h, 17 Steine,
> 
> Die Zifferblätter des Chronos kamen vom Fournisseur Lindner, bei dem Zenith am 11. März 1970 2500 Zifferblätter bestellte. Zenith selbst bestätigt, dass es von der Uhr max. 2500 Exemplare gegeben hat.
> Das Gehäuse aus Edelstahl mit Schraubboden, Hesalithglas, Aluminium-Drehlünette,wassergeschützt,Weicheisen-Innengehäuse
> Die Werke wurden wohl 1969 und die Gehäuse 1970 produziert.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Nice write up! The only thing I have to add is that the "P" in the Cal. 25x2 series (e.g. 2572 PC) apparently stands for "Power" (i.e. automatic winding). The source is Rössler (the section on the development of the El Primero, top of p. 237).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## John Chris

Grazie, SV - I stand enlightened!


----------



## sempervivens

Thanks!

But why did Zenith never use the "shockprotection suffix""-6" for a Martel chronograph, as they did with the Excelsior Park cal. 40 chronographs, which were named Zenith cal. 143 (without incabloc) or cal. 143*-*6 (with incabloc)?

Some suggestions :

- the Zenith Excelsior Park chronographs with cal. 143-6 were made from 1945 until 1956 : during the period when Zenith used the suffix -6 the most;

- it is possible that during the same period (until 1956) there simply were _no _Martel chronographs with incabloc ;

- furthermore it is possible that starting in 1956 _all _the Martel chronographs had incabloc. But at the same time (1956) Zenith stopped using the suffix -6, simply because from now on _all _their watches had shock protection, so it didn't make sense to use the suffix -6 any more.

If anybody can contradict this by showing a pre-1956 Martel chronograph with incabloc and/or a post-1956 Martel chronograph without incabloc, that would be interesting.

As long as it can't be contradicted, this could be a working hypothesis.


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> *Martel watch co* was founded in *1911 *in *Les Ponts-de-Martel *by *Georges Pellaton-Steudler.
> *(see http://www.antiquewatchworld.com/watch/html/watch_co.html)
> 
> *1911 *was also the year that *Georges Favre *retired and changed his company name from "*Georges Favre-Jacot" *to "*Zenith*" (see Roessler, p.11-12).
> 
> Note that Zenith and *Universal *were both in *le Locle*, at approx. 10 km from Martel.
> 
> Around *1918 *Martel is seen supplying Universal with chronograph movements (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Genève#1930s-1949:_The_Chronograph_and_.22Watch_Couturier.22_er a).
> 
> Universal Geneve claims on their website that in *1917* they launched *the world's first wristwatch chronograph* (see http://www.universal.ch/newsletter/en/details/didyouknow.htm).
> 
> Combining this information we can conclude that "the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal", probably used a movement made by Martel.


....Pellaton progetta un movimento cronografico. Calibro di buona qualità che si guadagna l'apprezzamento dei fornitori degli eserciti, tra i quali *Universal.* I suoi primi cronografi da polso (1917) sono equipaggiati con un Martel Watch da 17 linee....
...Pellaton designing a chronograph movement. Caliber of good quality that you gain an appreciation of the suppliers of hosts, including *Universal*. His first wrist chronographs (1917) are equipped with a Martel Watch from 17 lines ....

Vetroplastica.it • Leggi argomento - Martel Watch, El Primero e non solo: la storia dimenticata


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Pellaton? Do you mean Alfred Pellaton? The one who introduced the excentre automatic winding mechanism at IWC?

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

As reported by Nicola, Marco Strazzi is presenting a wonderful article about Martel Watch co, from its founding by Georges Pellaton-Steudler until the break-up with Universal and the sale to Zenith, including the development of the Primero, which started in 1963 under the guidance of Raoul Pellaton (son of of Georges Pellaton).

Apparently Mr. Strazzi has inside sources who used to work for the company and access to Martel archives.

The good news for me is that his article largely confirms what was written in the thread here, including some parts which previously remained somewhat hypothetical, which are now confirmed by this excellent source.
For instance, as Nicola already mentioned, he confirms that is was Martel who delivered the chronograph movement for Universal's first wristwatch chronograph. He confirms that Martel always remained independent and always owned the building. Interesting note: just as Chris did in this thread, Mr. Strazzi draws a comparison between Martel and Universal and Aegler and Rolex.

Later I will try to make a synthesis and translation of the most important points which can be added to the thread here.
Just to begin with an example, about Georges Pellaton. There were so many Pellatons in the watchmaking part of Switzerland. 
Now this Georges Pellaton, before starting his own company with the help of his wife Steudler (foundation of Martel watch co in 1911) apparently was already very experienced as technical director at Le Phare (known for complicated pocketwatches with chronograph, full calendar, moonphase and quarter repeater all in one !) before he took the plunge when he was 45 and started his own company, the Martel watch co.


----------



## coali

Wow, alot of information here! Unfortunately, I just know enough to be dangerous! I came across Zenith watches in the last couple of months and was looking to purchase an El Primero with the 4021 movement. 

However, the main reason aside from the beauty of the watch was for the movement. I want to add to my collection a watch with a complete in-house movement and after reading this thread I am a little confused as to the direction of it. Is the consensus (and the facts) saying Zenith movements are purely and truly in-house or not? Thanks for helping me out!


----------



## John Chris

coali said:


> Wow, alot of information here! Unfortunately, I just know enough to be dangerous! I came across Zenith watches in the last couple of months and was looking to purchase an El Primero with the 4021 movement.
> 
> However, the main reason aside from the beauty of the watch was for the movement. I want to add to my collection a watch with a complete in-house movement and after reading this thread I am a little confused as to the direction of it. Is the consensus (and the facts) saying Zenith movements are purely and truely in-house or not? Thanks for helping me out!


Yes - they are truly in-house. This thread discusses, in part, how the house they are in came to be Zenith's!


----------



## nicola1960

;-)










Les Ponts-de-Martel - Jura Neuchtelois - Switzerland


----------



## Hartmut Richter

And yet another nice piece of research there - thanks, nicola. Hmmmm - there seems to be an "L" missing in that name - signs of dereliction?!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## John Chris

Honestly - first Zenith loses the eight o'clock marker from the El Primero G581 it advertised, then misplaces the 'L' from MARTEL! What's next? El Primer?


----------



## LouS

John Chris said:


> Honestly - first Zenith loses the eight o'clock marker from the El Primero G581 it advertised, then misplaces the 'L' from MARTEL! What's next? El Primer?


...or El Primero without a chronograph?


----------



## Hartmut Richter

John Chris said:


> What's next? El Primer?


They managed that already. The result was called "Prime"! b-)

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Usually it is the other way around... The _établisseur_, a well known watch brand, pretends that it also produces the movement for the watch - but in reality the job to create and make the movement is left to the _ébaucheur_, producer of raw movements.

Martel watch, although ébaucheur for most of its existence, for a few years between 1955-1959 also acted as an établisseur.

Here is an example :







It's a nice logo IMHO.

The face has some scars ...








...holes and nails, "repairs" from the past!









Back is also signed Martel, but only on the outside.

The movement is also signed Martel, but it is a Fontainemelon (FHF 73). Fortunately ! no problem to get spare parts (new setting spring)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Very interesting! Looks like the dial feet broke off and someone found an, ehrm, "novel" way to make some new ones!! Interestin that Martel chose an FHF movement when they had their own (or did the Cal. 2512 only come out in 1960?!).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## plaverty

sempervivens said:


> Usually it is the other way around... The _établisseur_, a well known watch brand, pretends that it also produces the movement for the watch - but in reality the job to create and make the movement is left to the _ébaucheur_, producer of raw movements.
> 
> Martel watch, although ébaucheur for most of its existence, for a few years between 1955-1959 also acted as an établisseur.
> 
> Here is an example :
> View attachment 813799
> 
> It's a nice logo IMHO.


Another example?

































Not in my possession, else you would see movement.

Paul


----------



## sempervivens

plaverty said:


> View attachment 840389
> View attachment 840391


Paul, thank you for posting that.


----------



## sempervivens

*In the beginning of this thread *I've mentioned (based on a claim on Universal's website) that *Universal/Martel *made the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers. 
I'd like to correct this: the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers was probably made by *Breitling/Landeron*, with Universal/Martel being a close second.

To do this, I would like to share a synthesis of some things I learned from : http://www.invenitetfecit.com/modeles/premiers_chronographes_breitling.html .

_Let me put it in chronological order :

_The idea of having a chronograph with pushers that can start, stop and restart the chronograph independently from the reset, can be traced back as far as *1878*, when *M. Grossmann *made a chronograph with three pushers. In *1893* *Paul-Louis Droz* patented a chronograph mechanism with two pushers, allowing the same possibilities. These were probably the very first chronographs with two (or three) pushers, a convenient mechanism which included the possibility of restarting the chronograph without having to reset it first.

Part of this chronograph history is also the history of the 'separate chronograph pusher'. 
In *1895* *Nicolet Fils et Cie* patented a chronograph with a separate chronograph pusher : a pusher that was not integrated in the crown but positioned separately, at 6 o'clock, a system with several advantages. Based on this patent Nicolet Fils et Cie made some very small chronographs with a 13 lignes movement: so small that it is even possible that it was also used as a wristwatch. In the same period, possibly even earlier, there also existed a "*Fidelis*" chronograph (a brand registered by *Favre-Leuba*) which had a separate chronograph pusher at 9 o'clock.

The first wristwatch chronograph was probably made by *Omega* in *1913*. The movement was constructed in such a way that it could easily be made in lépine version (with the chronograph pusher integrated the crown) or as a savonette (with the pusher positioned separately at 6 o'clock).

In the same year (1913) *Nathan Weil* also marketed a wristwatch chronograph. The movement for this was probably made by *Marcel Dépraz *(of the illustrious house of *Dubois-Dépraz*)*.

*The same Marcel Dépraz probably made the movement for the first wristwatch chronograph by *Breitling* in *1915*. 
This Breitling was the first chronograph that had a separate pusher positioned _at 2 o'clock_, a very practical position.

Next one can mention that in *1917* Martel Watch co. made Universal's first wristwatch chronograph.

Although a chronograph with two pushers was already patented in 1893, it still took until *1933-34* when there were three companies who brought out wristwatch chronographs with two pushers : Breitling, Universal and *Angélus*.

On the basis of their patent deposited on the *6[SUP]th[/SUP] October 1933*, Breitling is generally recognised as having made the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers. 
It is not sure that the patent was valid, considering the earlier patent of a system with two pushers dating to 1893. However, based on the date of this patent, Breitling can be given the honour of having marketed the first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers. 
The movement was probably made by *Landeron* (but it was made exclusively for Breitling).

Universal's *Compur* (made by Martel) then was the second wristwatch chronograph with two pushers. 
The Compur name was deposited on *9[SUP]th[/SUP] June 1934*.

Note that the first Compur had a movement with _two column wheels_ (a system that was soon simplified).
The second column wheel can be seen on the dial side of the movement:















During the following years, Universal/Martel took the lead when they made the first wristwatch chronograph with three counters (including a register for the chronograph hours).

A fact that is little known, is that it was first called the *Contax*, before being renamed *Compax*. 
On *19 November 1935* the Contax name was registered by Universal Watch co. 
On *13 February 1936 *Martel Watch co. deposited their first patent for a chronograph with hour counter. 
An additional patent was deposited on *8[SUP]th[/SUP] December 1937*. Nicola has posted these Martel patents earlier in this thread.

One can deduct that the first chronograph with three subdials (including hour counter) was made by Martel in 1936 (far ahead of the competition), but the movement was still being improved, until in *1938* it finally became known as the Compax (and that was still a year ahead of the competition).

In *1940 *followed the *Aero-Compax *and in *1944 *the* Tri-Compax.

*From the patent application of the Aero-Compax (also posted earlier in this thread by Nicola) we know that the inventor was *Raoul Pellaton*.

One can only hope to learn more about this Raoul Pellaton, who apparently was the inventor of some of the most remarkable chronographs of the 20th century : the Compax, the Aero-Compax, the Tri-Compax, and later the El Primero and Espada. So far it could only be established that he was born around the year 1900. On 17th May *1930 *he married *Jeanne Angèle Roulet *(° 1903- + 2000). Around *1950 *(after the passing away of his father) he came to lead the family company, together with his brothers. He was the one responsible for the development of the new calibers, his last masterpiece being the Zenith El Primero. He retired around *1968-69*: the period when the El Primero was launched. He passed away on the 3rd of April *1977 *(two years after the liquidation of Martel, around the time when the El Primero was also buried).

To conclude for now, let me thank Nicola for his research. For those who understand Italian, I would like to refer again to Marco Strazzi's article *Martel Watch, El Primero e non solo: la storia dimenticata*. Later I hope to supply a further translation and synthesis of this article.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Full calendar with moonphase? I'd certainly like to know what calibre is inside - and whether it was made by Martel. Or whether an _ebaucherie _with only a small output of their own watches resorted to generally available generic movements (AS, Venus, etc.) for this complication.....

Thanks for showing.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the additional information - it was very interesting! I wonder whether Charles Hahn (Landeron) ever designed their own chronograph movements. Certainly the famous lever chrono system which is the bulk of Landeron's output after the mid thirties was designed by Dubois-Depraz for a Landeron base movement and made and assembled by Landeron. So, in the end, perhaps the first two button chrono was made by D-D as well?!?

Hartmut Richter


----------



## plaverty

Hartmut Richter said:


> Full calendar with moonphase? I'd certainly like to know what calibre is inside - and whether it was made by Martel. Or whether an _ebaucherie _with only a small output of their own watches resorted to generally available generic movements (AS, Venus, etc.) for this complication.....
> 
> Thanks for showing.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


V90








V88















U-G Calber 291 signed Martel




















HR is much more familiar with the _ebaucherie _offerings of this period than most of us.

But we are both intrigued with the perhaps equally likely possibility that the Martel chronograph with full calendar (day-of-week, date-of-month, month-of-year), including moonphase introduced earlier in this thread was, for example, based on a Valjoux 88 ebauche omitting the moonphase disc co-axial hour counter register providef for at 6-o'clock, or alternatively and no less likely, an elaboration of a Martel chronograph adding full calendar and moonphase by the inhouse team, for whom such elaborations were not foreign.
(This mini-topic typifies this thread. Despite the resources of the internet, these lapses in our knowledge of horological events evoke the inevitable paradox in any pursuit of knowledge; the more knowledge we obtain, the more seemingly impenetrable are the subsequent mysteries we encounter.)

Paul


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for those pictures. Holy maccaroni! - a UG movement with moonphase/full calendar elaboration and "Martel" on it?! That makes you wonder whether any pre-1960 UG movements were ever made by them without Martel's help.....

You are right - when I say that full calendar chronograph, I immediately thought "Valjoux". However, I also thought that it would be odd for a chronograph specialist to resort to other maker's chronograph movements just to put a moonphase and full calendar on the watch. Once you had got past the complexities of developing an in-house chronograph movement, the calendar feature on the dial side is usually the least of your worries!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## plaverty

plaverty said:


> V90
> 
> But we are both intrigued with the perhaps equally likely possibility that the Martel chronograph with full calendar (day-of-week, date-of-month, month-of-year), including moonphase introduced earlier in this thread was, for example, based on a Valjoux 88 ebauche omitting the moonphase disc co-axial hour counter register providef for at 6-o'clock, or alternatively and no less likely, an elaboration of a Martel chronograph adding full calendar and moonphase by the inhouse team, for whom such elaborations were not foreign.
> 
> Paul


U-G Caliber 481 (Martel)


























U-G Caliber 481 should dispel any question of Martel being intimidated by dial-side complications. I could not resist the last two shots (damn the height, stack up more complications).

Paul


----------



## sempervivens

Thank you for those illustrations.

I came upon another thread by Nicola on Universal chronographs, Universal Genève: i cronografi della famiglia, and decided to share here a few of the illustrations gathered there by Nicola, in order to illustrate my last update (yesterday) on the first chronographs with two pushers, the Compur, the Compax and so on.

*An advertisement for the first chronograph with two pushers (patented by Breitling on 6 October 1933)

*








*Two advertisements for the Universal / Zenith Compur (created ca. 1934).

*
















*An example of the Universal Genève Contax (ca. 1936)

*








*Three advertisements for the Compax (1938)

*






















*An advertisement for the Aero-Compax (1940)

*








*Two advertisements for the first chronograph with date, the Dato-Compax (ca. 1942)

*
















*Five advertisements for the famous Tri-Compax (1944)

*








































*

And one advertisement for the Medico-Compax (1945)*, the only one which brought a simplification instead of a further complication!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Thanks for the information. Yes, that watch is a little on the thick side. Looks like my Zenith ChronoMaster Cal. 410. Which goes to show just how slim the El Primero is for what it offers.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> *An example of the Universal Genève Contax (ca. 1936) *


Others examples.;-)


----------



## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> Other examples.;-)


Thank you, Nicola, for these examples of the rare "Contax".

As mentioned above the Contax was the first wristwatch chronograph in history with a register for the chronograph hours. It was made for a brief period in 1936-37 and then replaced by the "Compax". There is an interesting detail about the Contax : the construction is such, that when setting the hours (through the crown) the chronograph hour register is also engaged. 
So if one advances the time with for instance three hours, the chronograph hour register is also advanced by three hours.


----------



## nicola1960

Consegnato dalle mani di Jean-Frèdèric Dufour, CEO di Zenith, ieri 27 ottobre 2012.;-)

Delivered by the hands of Jean-Frèdèric Dufour, CEO of Zenih, yesterday October 27, 2012. ;-)

Zenith e O&P di nuovo assieme: Venezia 27 Ottobre.























































M.W. = Martel Watch ?


----------



## nicola1960

Con il permesso dell'autore:
"&#8230;Lo studio comincia nel 1963, guidato da *Raoul Pellaton*. Disegni fatti a mano, come si usa all'epoca. Nel 1968 i prototipi sono pronti ed è a questo punto che entra in scena il testimone con cui mi sono intrattenuto qualche mese fa: *Pierre-Alfred Roulet*, giovane laureato assunto con l'incarico di presiedere all'ingegnerizzazione dei componenti in acciaio, vale a dire l'adattamento alla produzione su scala industriale. Tra i dilemmi di quei mesi c'è la *frequenza*: i Pellaton sono favorevoli alle 36.000 alternanze/ora, ultimo grido della tecnica, ma la scelta dell'oscillatore giusto (bilanciere-spirale) si rivela complicata. È proprio Roulet, insieme con René Gygax (che in seguito passerà a Rolex), a trovare la soluzione giusta&#8230;"

With permission: 
"...The study began in 1963, led by* Raoul Pellaton*. Handmade designs, as used at the time. In 1968, the prototypes are ready and it is at this point that enters the witness with whom I spoke a few months ago: *Pierre-Alfred Roulet*, young graduate taken with the task of chairing the engineering of steel components, which say the adaptation to the production on an industrial scale. Among the dilemmas of those months is the frequency: Pellaton are in favor of 36,000 alternations / hour, the last cry of the technique, but the choice of the oscillator just (balance-spiral) proves complicated. It is Roulet, along with René Gygax (who later switches to Rolex), to find the right solution..." 
Martel Watch: capitolo 3


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Personal delivery by the CEO himself?! You must certainly be well connected.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

thank you Nicola!

This picture seems bigger so maybe also worth posting:









One can see that the Pellatons occupy strategic positions in the picture (#1 Georges Pellaton, #2 René Pellaton, #7 Georges Pellaton jr. and last but one in the last row: Raoul Pellaton).

The family resemblance is obvious. Raoul Pellaton is the more robust one though. He also looks the youngest.








René-Philippe - Georges - Raoul - Georges (jr.) Pellaton

In this picture (taken in 1941) the founding father Georges Pellaton was 75 years old. It was exactly thirty years since he founded Martel watch. He passed away ca. 1950.

His sons took over the company.

On his left his son René-Philippe (responsible for administration); on the far right Georges jr. (responsible for instruments and raw movements); and on his right is Raoul (responsible for finishing, assembly and sales).

Raoul is named as inventor of the Aero-Compax in the 1940 patent. Therefore one may wonder if he was also the inventor of the Compax and Tri-Compax?

It is certain that under the guidance of Raoul Pellaton the El Primero was developed, starting in 1963. But we should not forget his brother Georges, who was responsible for raw movements and instruments and is also mentioned as inventor in a 1957 Martel patent for an automatic watch: it is possible that he also helped to lay the basis for the El Primero.

It is not known until what date Georges continued to work for Martel, but Raoul worked for Martel (Zenith) until ca. 1968-69, when the El Primero was ready.

(picture and general information from Marco Strazzi's article in Vetroplastica/10e10.ch : http://www.vetroplastica.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1173 ) (the patents mentioned were posted earlier in this thread by Nicola1960)


----------



## nicola1960

Hartmut Richter said:


> Personal delivery by the CEO himself?!


;-)


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> Personal delivery by the CEO himself?! You must certainly be well connected.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


It is a a little off-topic but let me explain. Zenith organised a dinner evening on Oct. 27th for Italian O&P forum members in Venice. Each guest got a book on the history of the El Primero, with a dedication by mr. Dufour. You can see pictures and videoclips of the evening on pages 22-25 of the thread (see the link posted by Nicola : Zenith e O&P di nuovo assieme: Venezia 27 Ottobre. - page 23). Apparently the book contains pictures of original El Primero drawings by M.W. (Martel Watch ?) and that's why Nicola posted it here.


----------



## nicola1960

nicola1960 said:


> *Con il permesso dell'autore*:
> "&#8230;Lo studio comincia nel 1963, guidato da *Raoul Pellaton*. Disegni fatti a mano, come si usa all'epoca. Nel 1968 i prototipi sono pronti ed è a questo punto che entra in scena il testimone con cui mi sono intrattenuto qualche mese fa: *Pierre-Alfred Roulet*, giovane laureato assunto con l'incarico di presiedere all'ingegnerizzazione dei componenti in acciaio, vale a dire l'adattamento alla produzione su scala industriale. Tra i dilemmi di quei mesi c'è la *frequenza*: i Pellaton sono favorevoli alle 36.000 alternanze/ora, ultimo grido della tecnica, ma la scelta dell'oscillatore giusto (bilanciere-spirale) si rivela complicata. È proprio Roulet, insieme con René Gygax (che in seguito passerà a Rolex), a trovare la soluzione giusta&#8230;"
> 
> With permission:
> "...The study began in 1963, led by* Raoul Pellaton*. Handmade designs, as used at the time. In 1968, the prototypes are ready and it is at this point that enters the witness with whom I spoke a few months ago: *Pierre-Alfred Roulet*, young graduate taken with the task of chairing the engineering of steel components, which say the adaptation to the production on an industrial scale. Among the dilemmas of those months is the frequency: Pellaton are in favor of 36,000 alternations / hour, the last cry of the technique, but the choice of the oscillator just (balance-spiral) proves complicated. It is Roulet, along with René Gygax (who later switches to Rolex), to find the right solution..."
> Martel Watch: capitolo 3


Ringrazio l'autore Marco Strazzi.;-)


----------



## sempervivens

I've promised to translate more information from Marco Strazzi's article about Martel: here's another bit.

Previously I thought that only the chronographs were made by Martel and that at least the normal handwound and automatic watches were produced by Universal themselves.

But according to Marco Strazzi, Universal Genève didn't become a manufacture until *1955*, when they broke with Martel to start manufacture their own watches.

For instance Universal cal. 138 (bumper automatic, 1948-55 according to Ranfft) is actually a movement by Marc Favre.

According to M. Strazzi, Martel bought the rights to cal. 138 from Marc Favre and then ceded the rights to Universal.

Or take Universal cal. 262 (handwound) : it is equivalent to Marc Favre 595; several companies used it and nobody knows who actually produced it (information from Roland Ranfft, see https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/cyma-cal-586-a-721863.html).

I conclude that it is quite possible that until 1955 Martel produced not only the famous chronographs for Universal Genève, but also many normal handwound and automatic watches.

Additionally, Universal Genève may have bought movements from various manufacturers (according to M. Strazzi this could have included movements such as ETA, AS, Felsa, Fontainemelon).

Then, only in 1955, Universal Genève started their own watch manufacture.

But even after 1955 Universal Genève still used movements by other companies (for instance Roland Ranfft lists Universal 56 as equivalent to Movado 345 : bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Universal 56 (Movado 345) ).

Note : Marco Strazzi's article *Martel Watch, El Primero e non solo: la storia dimenticata *can be found here :Vetroplastica.it • Login


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Repeaters?!! Wow - I certainly would like to see some of those! Not many companies that were able to make them in those days.....(or even now!).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## pyiyha

Thank you for this wonderful read!
A must read for Zenith owner/fan ...
I feel like I am back in school and have just gone through an intense education on the history of Martel/Zenith/Universal Geneve.
This thread really oughta be a sticky and once again thank you all for such an education.

Personally, I thank SV for directing me to my first Zenith (Zenith prime) which is en route as I write this.
Now, I will have a greater appreciation and better enjoyment of the watch.
I look forward to further posts by you all and await further education.

Best regards,
Peter


----------



## sempervivens

Here's another bit for history lovers:

*The economic crisis in 1920-22* hit the Swiss watch industry badly.

In *1923 *Martel watch was on the verge of bankruptcy.

To diversify production, Georges Pellaton created a simple, thin, 17 lignes 'time only' movement, which can be seen in the middle of this advertisement:









Martel watch was saved by this new movement and ... the great Kanto Earthquake in 1923 in Japan.

As a result of the earthquake, local watch companies in Japan had to buy Swiss movements to keep their commitments to their clients. For instance Seiko saw their Ginza headquarters and the Seikosha factory all burned down. 1500 watches that had been left with the company by customers for servicing or repairs, were nonetheless replaced by Seiko with equivalent new timepieces.

Martel received a huge order from Japan for their new 17 lignes movement and was saved from its financial problems. This became the beginning of a period of growth for Martel.

In *1927 *Martel created a new chronograph, which from *1929 *onwards was reserved for Universal.

In *1932 *Georges Pellaton invested and bought back stock from co-investors, making him the sole owner.

Martel survived the Great Depression without problems and in *1934 *presented a novelty : the Compur was the second wristwatch chronograph with two pushers in history (one year after Breitling had patented theirs).

In *1936 *Martel Watch created the Contax (in *1938 *renamed as the Compax) : the first chronograph in history with hour counter.

In 1936 Universal Genève acquired a participation in Martel Watch: the beginning of a cooperation very similar to that between Rolex and Aegler.

In *1940 *the Martel factory was rebuilt, enlarged and modernised in 6 months time. It was a big happening for the small village of Les Ponts-de-Martel. Martel Watch had 80 employees at the time (the village only had 1500 inhabitants). The new building was officially inaugurated on 31st January *1941*.

I've already written about the creation of the Aero-Compax (1940), the Dato-Compax (ca. 1942) and the Tri-Compax (1944).

But during the war Martel also made many instruments, which Universal sold for military airplanes.

Martel furthermore diversified production with calendar watches and a 'Time only' with directly-driven central seconds.

After the war the demand for chronographs dwindled. Martel and Universal compensated this with new calibres, a 'time only' and a (bumper) automatic watch. 
Martel bought the rights to cal. 138 from Marc *Favre *and then ceded the rights to Universal. Martel produced cal. 138 for Universal from *1948 *until *1955*.

Note that Louis-Edouard *Berthoud *died on the 3rd March of *1947 *and in *1950 *Georges Pellaton passed away.

During the 1950's, Universal Genève decided to become a manufacture of their own. In *1954 *U.G. opened a manufacturing plant in Carouge (a municipality of Geneva). 
In *1955 *Universal Genève suddenly presented their calibre 215 with microtor and broke its relationship with Martel.

For the first time in its history, Universal Genève became a 'real manufacture'... only to be sued immediately by *Buren *for patent infringement. 
Buren won the case and U.G. had to pay Buren royalties for each microrotor it used until their own patent was granted.

Martel from their side tried to stand alone (see also the Martel advertisements in *1956*, posted in the beginning of this thread).

But Martel really needed a new 'sponsor'. And so it happened that in *1959 *Martel was entirely taken over by Zenith.

According to Rössler, Martel already started in *1958 *making calibres 2511, 2522 and 2522C for Zenith.

Of course Martel continued making chronographs for Zenith, but it also created the famous calibre 25xx series, which during the 1960's and '70s became Zeniths main calibre for wristwatches! This is another proof that Martel was not just a chronograph specialist, but also made 'time only' movements, thin movements with sub seconds or central seconds, handwound or automatic, with or without date, and all with chronometer precision.

Although most Zenith movements can be used as chronometers, there were only two Zenith wristwatches that were developed as chronometers from the beginning : the famous calibre 135 and (the even more famous) 'El Primero' calibre 3019 PHC. With the El Primero, Martel Watch created one of the best watches in history.

From *1962 *until *1968*, Martel Watch developed the Zenith El Primero. It is the ultimate watch, which is all in one : very thin - with sub seconds - with a chronograph with central seconds, minute and hour counter - with date - it can also be equipped with full calendar and moonphases - it is fully automatic but it can also be handwound - and with chronometer precision.

However, the same company that unwittingly helped to save Martel Watch in 1923, now helped to cause its downfall. In the 1970's Seiko not only brought out the first quartz wristwatch, but it also flooded the market with mass-produced automatic chronographs, which in the 1970's sold much better than the Zenith El Primero.

In *1971 *the American Zenith Radio Corporation was able to to take over Zenith.

In *1974 *the ZRC ordered Zenith to stop the production of all mechanical watches and as a result Martel Watch was shut down.

But it was too late... the king of watches was born and could not be killed any more...

(note : the illustration and most of the information come from Marco Strazzi's article in Vetroplastica/10e10.ch : http://www.vetroplastica.it/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11736 ; with some additions amongst others from _'A journey in time. The remarkable history of Seiko' _(Seiko Watch corporation) and _'Zenith, Swiss watch manufacture since 1865'_ (Manfred Rössler); and some additions of my own).


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Wow, that is quite some (extra) information - in a thread that is already full of it! However, I think that when you talk of the Cals. 2511 and 2522 in 1958, you probably mean the Cals. 2511 (indirect subsecond hand at 6:00) and 2512 (direct centre seconds hand). Interesting that Martel also made a simple pocket watch movement in the early twenties. I could swear that I have seen that bridge layout before..... - must look out for it in future.

I think that this thread is important enough by now (and probably has been for some time) to deserve a sticky. Here goes!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Hartmut Richter said:


> However, I think that when you talk of the Cals. 2511 and 2522 in 1958, you probably mean the Cals. 2511 (indirect subsecond hand at 6:00) and 2512 (direct centre seconds hand).


Quick recantation after a discussion via PM and a belated look at the book: it is actually a Cal. 2511 and 2522. Zenith forgot to designate their first direct central seconds version as Cal. 2512 (25 for 25mm, 1 for the first movement of that type in house and 2 as central seconds). 

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Lemper

Thanks for posting the history semper. Was quite an interesting read!


----------



## WatchFred

thanks to all involved here - and to Mr. Strazzi, of course.
hugely interesting.


----------



## MMMD

"Short History" my #%*. 

At last I have a small contribution to make to this legendary thread.

Here is a new acquisition, a Martel Cal 1111, from the short-lived period of Martel's independence, ca. 1955-58.














































Maybe the immediate predecessor of the Zenith 2511 (from Ranfft):










Here is a similar model with less decorated movement, currently on the 'Bay:


----------



## Hartmut Richter

That is very interesting! It looks as if when Zenith took over the movement, the bridge shape was changed - and then, it was changed back again when they converted the Cal. 2552 to the Cal. 2562:

bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Zenith 2562

Apart from that, the calibres are obviously related and the subseconds is obviously indirectly driven (normally, it's the other way round, of course - indirect central seconds off a subsecond watch).

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Pretty nice, MMMD, good find, you lucky #%*. . 
Thanks for pointing out the similarity with cal. 2562, Hartmut. 
Here is another marvellous Martel illustration, thanks to Nicola:


----------



## nicola1960




----------



## nicola1960

;-)



1923


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Goodness me!! I'm sure we have had a few of those on the Vintage forum. At least ones with that bridge layout. Now I know what they are - or at least could be. Most informative, thanks very much!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> ...Note that the first Compur had a movement with _two column wheels_ (a system that was soon simplified).
> The second column wheel can be seen on the dial side of the movement:
> 
> View attachment 840613
> View attachment 840615


Today is mine.;-)

Il raro cronografo Universal Watch "Compur", 1ª serie


----------



## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> Today is mine.;-)


Congratulations, Nicola! You've deserved this fine watch!


----------



## sempervivens

sempervivens said:


> Here's another bit for history lovers:
> 
> *(...)*
> 
> In *1940 *the Martel factory was rebuilt, enlarged and modernised in 6 months time. (...) The new building was officially inaugurated on 31st January *1941*.
> 
> (...)
> 
> *during the war... Martel furthermore diversified production with calendar watches *...




Here is an example of such a "calendar watch", Universal Genève cal. 291, with triple calendar and moonphase. The movement was created by Martel during the second world war, at the same time when they also made the famous Tri-compax. 









(See for more pics of this watch: https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/question-about-universal-geneve-cal-291-a-876142.html)


The calendar-watch was presented on *August 21st 1943* in Genève at the same time as the Tri-compax:

"*1943 : 21 August/6 September. Presentation of the "Calendar-watch" at the Maison de Genève*_, with or without moon phases, subsidiary seconds at 9 o'clock, calendar at 3 o'clock, day of the week at 12 o'clock, month and moon at 6 o'clock"_

The Tri-compax was officially launched during the Basel Fair in April 1944 on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of Universal Genève, but it "_had previously been shown at the Maison de Genève from August 21, to September 6, 1943". __(see: Antiquorum - Universal, Genève, circa 1910.Very fine and rare, 18K pink gold gentleman's wristwatch with single button chronograph on the crown, register and pulsometer.)_

Secondly, here is another interesting document dug up by Nicola1960 concerning Martel Watch co in *1942*:










Apparently in 1942 Raoul Perret became Chairman of the Board of Martel Watch Co S.A.

However, one certainly shouldn't overestimate the meaning of this.

Allow me to translate the French as well as the legal significance of this excerpt of changes in the statutes of Martel Watch co.

To begin with, in March 1942 Martel adapted its statutes to changes in the law (nothing really interesting in this part).

At the same time Martel appointed Raoul Perret as its president instead of Georges Pellaton, who became vice-president.

The other members of the board were René-Philippe, Georges (jr.) and Raoul PELLATON.

The power of attorney which previously had been granted to Raoul Pellaton, was cancelled.

From now on it required two signatures to commit the company.

This last fact is the most important. It implies that Raoul Perret, even though he was appointed president of the board, couldn't do anything on behalf of Martel without approval of the Pellatons. The Pellatons on the contrary could still do whatever they liked without the approval of Perret (including appointing a new president whenever they wanted).

Conclusion: this document is a proof that in 1942 the ownership of Martel Watch Co S.A. remained firmly in the hands of the Pellaton family. 

Georges Pellaton (now 76) retired to become vice-president. Raoul Perret was made president instead, but this was only an honorary position. Perret was obviously granted this position because he represented Martel's most important client, Universal Genève.

It becomes therefore clear from this document that from now on (1942) the three Pellaton brothers were leading Martel Watch Co.












René-Philippe - Georges - Raoul - Georges (jr.) Pellaton 

(In this picture, taken in 1941, the company founder Georges Pellaton was 75)


----------



## Hartmut Richter

That is really interesting! I am glad that I stickied this thread.....

Thanks, sempervivens.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## sempervivens

Hartmut Richter said:


> That is really interesting! I am glad that I stickied this thread.....
> 
> Thanks, sempervivens.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I would like to share the link again to the article by *Marco STRAZZI*, to whom we owe a lot of the additional information in this thread: Vetroplastica.it • Login

And together with all Zenith El Primero lovers, I am also indebted to *Pierre-Alfred ROULET*, who worked for Zenith in the Martel plant during the final year of creation of the Zenith El Primero. Here is a picture of Pierre-Alfred Roulet and Marco Strazzi together:









And another picture of Pierre-Alfred Roulet :








We recognise a beautiful Zenith El Primero on his wrist. And another wonderful twist of fate it is: this watch was presented to him by Energizer, for Roulet's 25 years of service, however without their being aware that he (Roulet) had helped to create the Zenith El Primero.

Note: Pictures by Marco Strazzi (see Vetroplastica.it • Login)


----------



## sempervivens

Nicola found an interesting article on the celebration of the 50th anniversary of Martel Watch Co's foundation (1911-1961).















It seems from this article as if Martel Watch Co continued an independent existence, although Zenith had bought it a year or two before this.

Perhaps we can read between the lines that this celebration was also a fare-well party to the independent existence of Martel Watch Co.

We learn that Raoul Pellaton was the Chairman of the Board of Martel Watch Co.

Raoul Pellaton had 40 years of service for the company and his brother Georges Jr. 50 years.

Their brother René is mentioned for his role in the early years, but otherwise there is no trace of him: apparently he was not working for Martel any more.

We are told about the history of the Pellaton family and the history of Martel and the evolution of its specialisation from repeaters to chronographs and calendar watches.

Charles Vermot also gets mentioned for his 25 years of service.

I had to cut the article in two to make it fit here. This is what the full article looks like:









(Note: original post by Nicola can be seen here: Informazioni sul cronografo monopulsante)


----------



## sempervivens

The obituary of Raoul Pellaton, who passed away on 10th April 1977 (Easter Sunday 1977).









(originally posted by Nicola here: Raoul Pellaton, l)


----------



## sempervivens

And yet another find by Nicola: 

*the celebration of the retirement of Georges Pellaton in 1965 after 54 years of service as a pioneer in watchmaking. 
*
He had been working for Martel Watch Co since its foundation in 1911.

Speakers at the event were Raoul Pellaton and Charles Vermot.









...and his death 4 years later on 13th July 1969.









*Georges Pellaton and Raoul Pellaton can be considered the main inventors of the El Primero movement. *

Since Georges retired in 1965, Raoul was the only one (of the two creative Pellaton brothers) who overlooked the creation of the El Primero movement from the beginning until the end.

Raoul Pellaton started working for Martel Watch Co in 1921. He has also been credited for the invention of the Aero-compax and Tri-compax (in the 1940's).

A few others were there all along to help him, like *Charles Vermot*, who started to work for Martel in 1936 and who stayed on until the end (in 1975) and even beyond (the resurrection).

Of course many others contributed as well: like René Gygax, Pierre-Alfed Roulet, and others who are still unknown to us.


----------



## SilkeN

I guess no further information but as an addition the 16'' movement (16'' I guess with 36,9 cm in diameter/ 3,55 mm thin) of the simple "timer only" watch looks like the 17'' one as Nicola has shown:

















It's running strong and only a safty pin on the right side near the angel lever is lost. I found this one about two years ago in the bay in south america/ argentina. My watch maker liked her .


----------



## Rdenney

We were traveling in Switzerland last week, and I had a chance to run over to Les Ponts-de-Martel to find the old Martal Watch Company factory that has been pictured several times in this thread. It looks much the same as it did in the 2011 picture shown up-thread. But here it is again. For those making the pilgrimage, the address is Rue de la Chappele 3, 2316 Les Ponts-de-Martel, NE, Switzerland.

The current occupant is Micronex, SA, a company that makes watch bracelets in gold and steel, plus watch boxes, with a site here and in Le Locle.

Les Ponts-de-Martel is a tiny village, seemingly much more agricultural than industrial, and decidedly working-class. To my American eyes, it seems an unlikely place for a place where the Pellaton brothers and Charles Vermot would have lived--I would have expected them to be more at home in the far more cosmopolitan environs of Le Locle. One would have to drive to Le Locle, or even La Chaux-de-Fonds or Neuchatel, for just about anything other than a loaf of bread or a pizza. But that's the way this part of Switzerland is, I suppose. The Martel building is really undistinguished from the hoouse blocks and other buildings, and up close it is not nearly as large as it seems in these pictures, which are made from down the hill slightly and look up to the building.

The ground floor is obscured by the cars parked in the foreground, but it is lined with roll-up cargo doors, not the people doors and windows visible in Nicola's clipping from above. These may be left over from when the food distributor was using the building.










Rick "feeling a little sorry for that missing L" Denney


----------



## sempervivens

Nicola posted a 1937 catalog of Zenith and Universal.

It contains historical chronographs made by Martel as discussed earlier in this thread:








Zenith Compur, early wristwatch chronograph with two pushers








Universal Genève Contax: the first wristwatch chronograph with hour counter

You can see the full catalog here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/brochure-zenith-universal-1937-a-1281706.html


----------



## SilkeN

This is a gread thread with a lot of informations and I can and should add some pics from a 1118'er of my friend who find it last christmas under the christmastree. Here a movement pic in comparison with the Zenith 2522 PC ("2512" not availible - it might be the 1118 labelt- seen once) With his kind regards:









and both without rotor









as an addition the perfect correlation of the handwinders but with timelag:









Kind regards Silke and friends

and to have some fun as attachment a wrist shot on my to thin arm of the automatic:


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Wonderful posts, both of them (sempervivens & SilkeN). That Martel Windsor from the late fifties looks about 10-15 years ahead of its time!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## SilkeN

Thank you Hartmut and I admire all the informative work sempervivens put in this thread.

We think also that the Martel looks ahead in fashion. A little bit but we have cheated by using a clasp strap out of the 70 ties. Usually I dislike "timemixures" but in this case the pattern works perfect together and the hole pic match together. Personal I find remarkable by the handwinders that the Zenith 2511 from 1958 differ in the bidge design and that they went back to the (Martel)roots 1972 with the Zenith 2562.

Addition the handwinder Martel sporto a very modern but quite common design in the 50 ties:









Kind regards Silke


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## UnknownSekonda

What a marvelous thread to read. I'm inspired all the chrono vintages watches. 

I knew I need to own a legendary watch like Universal Geneva Tri-compax and I did! I'm 24 years old and I can't believe my watch is more than 60 years old than me, I know my watch will still continue ticking way after I'm dead. Fascinating when you think about it. I enjoy this thread alot as I have learn so much. Thanks for making this happening.


----------



## tle

Great post...whoever own Zenith known the watch was built with greatest craftsmanship and the quality was kept at highest level through nearly hundred of years, but it does feel a bit sad when someone approach me and dont know anything about the brand. Which one of the reason why Zenith might be the underdog to JLC but i think the quality is on par, never the doubt.


----------



## sempervivens

For future reference I'd like to mention this post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/translation-subtitling-story-el-primero-3225394.html

This also includes the obituary of Charles Vermot, who passed away on 11th January 2005:the day after Zenith El Primero 46th birthday.

'In his 94st year': I think this means he was 93 when he died, and would have been 94 in 2005. Therefore he was born in 1911, the foundation year of Martel (and also the year when 'Georges Favre-Jacot' became 'Zenith').


----------



## sempervivens

*Re: A SHORT HISTORY AND OVERVIEW OF THE ZENITH CHRONOMASTER*

Here is another small addition for this thread:









This measures only 32 mm. It's an early Zenith cal. 136 chronograph ca. 1939. Back then they still believed in making highly complicated watches as small as possible.









Nobody wanted it, so I adopted it. It is a rare piece of history, especially Zenith history.

I think this was used as a military pilot's chronograph, as it came from the former Yugoslavia: same as the better-known Zenith military pilot chronographs, used by the Yugoslav air force in the 1950's.








(Zenith cal. 143-6, made ca. 1955 for the Yugoslav air force, see also https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/vintage-zenith-military-pilot-chronograph-703780.html)

However this smaller version from the late 1930's is much rarer.









I couldn't find another one with the same dial in steel!

I did find two Zeniths with the same dial in 18 K gold cases:















The second one has slightly different numbers and different hands, but it also has a case number from ca. 1938.

Back to the cal. 136 in steel.

















The Zenith staybrite steel case was most attractive to me, with a Zenith case number which dates it to ca. 1938/39.

It is a Zenith number: unlike most other early Zenith chronographs which (in the years immediately before and after this) used Universal Genève case numbers.

Therefore Zenith archives should still be able to date this watch.

In a few catalog pages of the late 1930's, you can also see the similarities:

for instance this black Universal Genève model from 1936 has the same case.








Combine the larger subdials of the white dial on the left and the baton hands of the black dial and it is a close match.

And this black Zenith with fancy case from 1938 also has a similar dial:









This advertisement is also from 1938:









For the period ca. 1938-39 I've now seen four Zenith chronographs with Zenith case numbers (two in 18 K gold, and two in staybrite steel, including this one).

During WW II, Zenith cal. 136 chronographs went back to Universal Genève case numbers.

When the war was over in 1945 again a few cal 136 chronographs emerge with Zenith case numbers (I've seen two, one example can be seen here).

Then by the late 1940's, Zenith started producing cal 143-6 chronographs, but that is stuff for another overview.

I hope you enjoyed this small addition to the Martel history. Maybe you'll find the dial a bit aged, and the case a bit small, but you can't be picky with history!


----------



## crhempel

Great writeup. Thank you.


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> No Martel movement _names _until the 1950's. The internal designation which Martel used for its chronograph caliber(s) is not as well known as the UG and Zenith names and numbers.
> 
> And yet, the Martel caliber number _is _known. You have said it, it is Martel caliber *749 *- at least in the 1950's it was called like that.
> ...


Denominazione dei calibri cronografici della Martel Watch Co


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Now this is very interesting! Thanks for posting that, Nicola. However, in my mind, this poses several questions.

Zenith generally had a three number calibre code system that showed the size of the movement (in old french _lignes_) and also the how many'th movement of that size this was at Zenith. Hence the famous Cal. 135 was 13''' (30mm) in diameter and was the fifth movement of that type at Zenith (the bumper wind Cal. 133 must have been the third and it seems that not all movements made it into production since we lack a Cal. 131, 132 and 134). When they took over, they adopted the Martel numbering system. Hence the Cal. 25## series were not 25''' but instead 25mm across, the ##1# to ##7# denoted the first to seventh calibres of that type and the ###0 was for "time only movement, no seconds hand", the ###1 was for "...subseconds hand" and the ###2 was for "...centre seconds hand". The famous Cal. 3019 PHC stood for "30mm across, first movement of that type and chronograph movement".

From the above, we can see that Martel also had a four digit system but that (i) the size was in french _lignes_, not mm and (ii), the suffixes don't quite match up with the later Zenith system. ##1# still seems to be the first movement of that type (they seem to have had two 14''' chronograph movements, the Cal. 1416 and the Cal. 1426) but ###9 is not a chronograph movement but rather a stop watch movement ("_compteur_"). Instead, ###6 is a chronograph movement. Unless I am missing something here.....

Hartmut Richter


----------



## nicola1960

Non so rispondere. :-(


----------



## Mateusz P.

Hallo
With great pleasure I reading this post since two year.
In november 2014 on local market (Warsaw, Poland) I bought this Beautiful Martel Victorious. I paid 50pln (about 15$). And what have I done... I sold it two month ago. It could be the end of this story, but some days letter wrigth to me some Collector of Zenith, Paweł Paraponiak, and give me first information about Martel. 
I found this post and starting reading and learning. I talk to Paweł and we thing that Martel in his independent period 1955-58 produced no more than 3000-3500 watches. What is the basis of such a claim? On the beck side first 7 numbers refers to model/movement for egzample in any Victorious.




























We thing that for numbers is series number. The last Martel I recognize this number was 2886. Of course it's our hipothesis.









Mateusz


----------



## Mateusz P.

Another interesting question in why Martel used Felsa 692 Bidynator for everyone Victorious? Probably kal. 1118 wasn't ready in 1955 byt Martel need customers and have to earn money, when Universal broke with Martel. 
Another interesting photo. Zenith Capitan chronometre with kal. 1118 Martel. I think it's egzample when kal. 2522 wasn't ready, probably first half 1958.
















For the and a lucky final this  Six months ago this man, who bought my Martel call to me and ask "Listen Mat I open new workshop and I need add money, don't you want buy lot of vintage watches?" He send me a photo and what I see... of course my ex Martel Victorious  Now is saved in my collection and for sure I dont sell is second time. Unfortunetlly he heven't original crown but is still beautiful.

Mateusz


----------



## sempervivens

Hi Mateusz, thank you for your interesting post. 

However concerning the Zenith Captain with cal 1118, it is strange, as Zenith only made this model ('turtle' Captain) in the late 1960's, with cal 2542 PC or 2552 PC.


----------



## Mateusz P.

Yes it is strange. This Capitan in my friend watch and he was alsow suprised that he ad Martel movement. I dont think so someone had change it. Maybe Zenith had some numbers of old Martels movement and want to used it.


----------



## Herold

In first moment I really had some doubt about this theory with these numbers. But after some investigation I also found two watches with the same numbers. One of them owns a watch collector in another forum, the other one is one of my Martel watches. So I think it would make sense to investigate deeper in this theory. Maybe it is possible to encrypt the numbers a little bit? Because sometimes those numbers doesn't tell the model only, but also the case material or complications like date for example. So I think we should add some known facts of Martel watches. Maybe we will find a logical?

Here some examples of Martel watches I've found:


 (Model)
No. Ser. No. Model Caliber Automatic Hand winded Case material Case
Cover material 1126154 W​ 928​ Sporting​ 1112​ X​ GF​ SS​ 1126154 W​ 987​ Sporting​ 1112​ X​ GF​ SS​ 1129120 W​ 331​ --​ FHF 67​ X​ SS​ SS​ 1189106 W​ 1586​ Victorious​ Felsa 692​ X​ SS​ SS​ 1189171 W​ 4​ Windsor Memodate​ 1118​ X​ SS​ SS​
 GF = Gold filled
SS = Stainless steel

Also two pics with matched numbers.

Greetings,
Herold


----------



## Rdenney

sempervivens said:


> Nicola found an interesting article on the celebration of the 50th anniversary of Martel Watch Co's foundation (1911-1961).
> 
> View attachment 1264234
> View attachment 1264236
> 
> 
> It seems from this article as if Martel Watch Co continued an independent existence, although Zenith had bought it a year or two before this.
> 
> Perhaps we can read between the lines that this celebration was also a fare-well party to the independent existence of Martel Watch Co.
> 
> We learn that Raoul Pellaton was the Chairman of the Board of Martel Watch Co.
> 
> Raoul Pellaton had 40 years of service for the company and his brother Georges Jr. 50 years.
> 
> Their brother René is mentioned for his role in the early years, but otherwise there is no trace of him: apparently he was not working for Martel any more.
> 
> We are told about the history of the Pellaton family and the history of Martel and the evolution of its specialisation from repeaters to chronographs and calendar watches.
> 
> Charles Vermot also gets mentioned for his 25 years of service.
> 
> I had to cut the article in two to make it fit here. This is what the full article looks like:
> 
> View attachment 1264237
> 
> 
> (Note: original post by Nicola can be seen here: Informazioni sul cronografo monopulsante)


I was looking for something else in old press reports, and happened to come across this exact article in the February 17, 1961 edition of L'Impartial, the local newspaper in La Chaux-de-Fonds (and surrounding region).

There are some things to note in the article that bears on various speculations. The main one was that this was a celebration of 50 years of existence for Martel Watch. There is not one single mention that I can find of Universal Geneve in the article. The speculation that Universal owned control of Martel would surely have been written, or mentioned during the event, or reflected in a representative from Universal being on hand.

Here is my summary of the facts presented in the article. For me, dates are facts 

In 1911, Georges Pellaton-Dubois opens a factory in Le Locle.

In 1915, he moves the factory to a building in Les Ponts-de-Martel. The building, as pictured in 1901 and described in the article, had garages on the ground floor, and rooms on the first floor, where they did the design work.

In 1937, they converted the garages to workshops.

Through 1940, they added two floors, creating the final factory as it persisted. At this point, "all the manufacture of the watch was grouped under the same roof". Before that time, final work was done in space "above the Mathey-Tissot factory".

Speaking, or notably present, were:

Raoul Pellaton, President of the Board of Directors of Martel Watch
Fritz Mathey, and
Eric Perrenoud, both representing the District Watchmakers Association
John Perret, President of the Ponts-de-Martel Communal Council
Hermann Feuz, Vice President of the Communal Council
Samuel and Alfred Emery, representing the Balance Assemblers of Ponts-de-Martel
Jean-Pierre de Montmollin, Chairman of the Board of Directors of Zenith
Zenith Board Members Hainerd, Rober, and Oesch

The article praised the relationship Martel had built with its neighbors, business partners, its employees, and with Zenith. No mention of Universal.

Then, as described above, those with long standing at Martel received acknowledgement:

Georges Pellaton, 50 years (1911 to 1961, when the event took place)
Raoul Pellaton, 40 years (so, what was he doing from 1911 to 1921? Maybe he had a day job elsewhere, before the business grew enough to be able to support him.)
Miss Bluette Vuille, 40 years
René Huguenin, Alfred Jeanneret, Samuel Randin, Arnold Thiebaud, Henri Thiebaud, Charles Vermot, and Pierre Randin, each with 25 years (a big expansion in 1936!)
Mr. and Mrs. Pierre Randin are credited for 20 years of service, but in a different way than the employees, and I think they provided house services in the factory (cleaning, etc.)
Willy Humbert, a current employee, spoke on behalf of the employees.

Some interesting points:

1. As already mentioned, there is no mention of or involvement by Universal. Sure, Zenith might have prevented it, but that isn't really the way the Swiss work, by my reading of these reports. Either Universal and Martel had a serious falling out, or Universal didn't have the ownership or control that has been speculated in this thread. That would have been too important a role not to at least be mentioned at the company's 50th anniversary celebration. At the time Universal was very much a going concern. I am now quite convinced that the images of the factory with "UNIVERSAL" on the wall were just like the pictures of the Aegler factory with "GRUEN" on the sign in place of "ROLEX"--a doctored fabrication for publicity but not an actual photo.

2. This is confirmation that Charly Vermot started at Martel in 1936, which we knew, and was still considered an employee of Martel 1 or 2 years after the Zenith acquisition.

3. As Simpervivens said, Martel clearly still maintained its corporate structure even after the Zenith acquisition, though I have seen other records that suggest all their stock and assets ware purchased by Zenith. Zenith kept it as a separate subsidiary company with its own identity. Otherwise, we'd have publicity pictures of the Martel building with "ZENITH" emblazoned across it.

4. The Martel factory was still in operation, which we knew anyway.

5. The Martel factory employed "more than a quarter" of the resident families of Ponts-de-Martel. The municipality of Ponts-de-Martel had 1429 residents in 1960 (according to Wikipedia). Today, there are 500 private households, with only slightly less total population. That tells me that in 1961, Martel had between 150-200 employees, or thereabouts. That seems like a lot for that building, but it does not seem like a lot for all the 2500-series movements Martel was making at the time for Zenith, plus the caliber 146 hand-wind chronograph.

I never cease to be amazed to see full-fledged factories hiding in the corners of obscure and tiny mountain villages. I could walk from one end of Les Ponts-de-Martel in ten minutes. But in that old Martel building, which still (almost) says "Martel" on it, currentlhy resides Micronex SA, which machines tiny watch parts for watch factories, including screws for cases, braceletes, and movements; pins and arbors; bracelet links and end pieces; clasp parts; crown tubes; rehauts and dial bezels; and all types of parts for mechanical movements. This is their Number 2 site--their main location is over the hill in Le Locle.

Oh, and I did indeed recognize Nicola's fingerprints in that archive.

Rick "who was really looking for the announcement of Vermot's retirement from Zenith...still looking" Denney


----------



## sempervivens

Thank you for the comments, on the article. As for Universal ownership, others speculated about that. I think this thread made it clear enough that Martel always was an independent company, until it was incorporated by Zenith. 

As for Raoul Pellaton, and 'what was he doing from 1911 until 1921': perhaps he was studying at the time. Remember, he was the youngest son. We have not found out his date of birth yet. He may have been born around 1900 for all we know.


----------



## Rdenney

Another article from L'Impartial, dated December 18, 1965. This one describes the retirement party for Georges Pellaton-Rickli.

Couple of tidbits that maybe everyone but me knew. One is that the founder of what became Martel was Georges Pellaton-Dubois, and the Georges Pellaton who ran Martel for nearly all of its existence was his son. The move from Le Locle to Ponts-de-Martel seems to have coincided with when M. Pellaton-Dubois turned it over to his three sons, Georges, Raoul, and Rene.

Another is further confirmation that Martel was still Martel after the Zenith acquisition. In 1965, everyone still worked at the Martel building, including Charly Vermot. And Vermot was by that time in charge behind the owners--he spoke for the employees at the party.
















Rick "who was trying to connect the various and numerous Pellatons and ran across this" Denney


----------



## sempervivens

It is the same article as posted on page 14 of this thread.

Unfortunately there is a lot of information scattered all over this thread so one should read it all from the beginning until the end - and then correct some of the small mistakes - to get a clear picture.

Two interesting points which you make here if I may say so:

1. it is still a mystery how and when Martel watch co was exactly incorporated in Zenith after the take-over ca. 1959, since Martel could continue to present itself as an independent company in 1961 and even as late as 1965. Apparently Martel remained to some extent independent - perhaps until the last of the Pellatons retired (ca. 1969)?

2. according to this newpaper article the name of the founding father of Martel watch co was Georges Pellaton-Dubois. According to the information which I found when I started this thread (see p. 1 line 1), his name was Georges Pellaton-Steudler. The page which I mentioned as my source for that information does not exist any more, but his name is still mentioned as Georges Emile Pellaton-Steudler here: https://watch-wiki.org/index.php?title=Pellaton. According to this entry he was born in 1865 and died in 1960. This must be correct and he must be our man since in a picture of 31 January 1941 (see page 11 of this thread) he was 75 years old. So why is his name mentioned in a few newspaper articles as Pellaton-Dubois? Was it the name of his second wife?

In any case Georges Pellaton the father remained the president of Martel watch co for a long time. I must object against your statement that 'the Georges Pellaton who ran Martel for nearly all of its existence was his son'. I think you misunderstood the content of this article. Georges Pellaton the son worked for Martel from the beginning in 1911 until 1965, but not as its president. As mentioned before (see page 11 of this thread) Georges Pellaton jr. was responsible for raw movements and instruments and was also mentioned as inventor in a 1957 Martel patent for an automatic watch. Also we know that Raoul Pellaton was the president of Martel in the 1960's, presumably until his retirement ca. 1968/69 (?).

Raoul Pellaton passed away on 3rd April 1977 (Palm Sunday). His wife Jeanne Angèle Roulet was born in 1903. One can presume that Raoul Pellaton was about the same age as his wife, perhaps a couple of years older, therefore born ca. 1900.

His brother Georges Pellaton was perhaps 10 years older. He worked for Martel from the beginning in 1911 until his retirement in 1965, after which he passed away in 1969.

The third son, René-Philippe Pellaton, was responsible for administration; we don't know much more about him.

Another interesting remark in this 1965 newspaper article is the statement that Georges Pellaton (the father) started Martel watch co in 1911 in_ Le Locle_ and the company was transferred to Ponts-de-Martel _four years later_. This information fits with a newspaper extract from 1914 (see here) which mentions that Martel watch co S.A. was registered in June 1914 in Ponts-de-Martel. So the first four years (1911-1914) the company was located in Le Locle.


----------



## Rdenney

I have several times read the entire thread, but you will forgive me if I'm unable to remember every detail in it. This thread is not a book, and lacks the organization or bibliography of one. I simply didn't remember this article. But this thread has much better information about the Martel connection than either of the Zenith books I have. 

Yes, I agree that I got a little creative about the younger George's role. But I've seen the spouse name Dubois in several articles quoting one of the sons directly. It could be a second wife, but we also have to admit that there are a lot of Pellatons in the Jura, and even in Ponts-de-Martel. And a lot of them made watches. 

Rick "back to my usual Ebel research" Denney


----------



## nicola1960

sempervivens said:


> *Martel watch co* was founded in *1911 *in *Les Ponts-de-Martel *by *Georges Pellaton-Steudler.
> *(see http://www.antiquewatchworld.com/watch/html/watch_co.html)
> ...


La Martel Watch SA prima che divenisse Martel Watch SA, 1913.;-)


----------



## sempervivens

nicola1960 said:


> La Martel Watch SA prima che divenisse Martel Watch SA, 1913.;-)


Let me help to explain : this is a 1913 advertisement of Martel Watch Co before it became Martel Watch Co, when it was still called '_Manufacture d'Horlogerie Georges Pellaton-Steudler_' and located in Le Locle.

This helps to fill the gap between the founding by Georges Pellaton of his own company in 1911 and the continuation of it in 1914 when it became _Martel Watch Co. S.A._ in the rue de l'Industrie in Ponts-de-Martel.








Advertisement for *Manufacture d'Horlogerie Georges Pellaton-Steudler (1911-)1913*








*Registration of Martel Watch Co. S.A. in 1914*


----------



## nicola1960

Grazie ;-)


----------



## nicola1960

;-)


----------



## karltrain

Big fan of Martel - a shame they didn’t last longer as their own brand. Such great design and quality! Here’s mine 🙂


----------



## Herold

Nice watch, karltrain.
Is it possible to see the back of the watch?

Herold


----------



## VintageWatchGuy

Until today i though that Martel was a low end brand comparable to dugena etc.
Big surprise after reading this article &#55357;&#56833;
Thank you for writing down such a story!


----------



## Gerton

sempervivens said:


> *Martel watch co* was founded in *1911 *in *Les Ponts-de-Martel *by *Georges Pellaton-Steudler. *
> (see http://www.antiquewatchworld.com/watch/html/watch_co.html)
> 
> *1911 *was also the year that *Georges Favre *retired and changed his company name from "*Georges Favre-Jacot" *to "*Zenith*" (see Roessler, p.11-12).
> 
> Note that Zenith and *Universal *were both in *le Locle*, at approx. 10 km from Martel.
> 
> Around *1918 *Martel is seen supplying Universal with chronograph movements (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Genève#1930s-1949:_The_Chronograph_and_.22Watch_Couturier.22_er a).
> 
> Universal Geneve claims on their website that in *1917* they launched *the world's first wristwatch chronograph* (see http://www.universal.ch/newsletter/en/details/didyouknow.htm).
> 
> Combining this information we can conclude that "the world's first wristwatch chronograph, launched by Universal", probably used a movement made by Martel.
> 
> From this advertisement (ca. 1927?) we can see what those early Martel wristwatch chronographs looked like :
> View attachment 648307
> 
> 
> Next thing we know around *1932 *Universal launched *the world's first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers*.
> 
> The wristwatch chronograph with two pushers as we still know it today, was born!
> 
> And it will become clear from the watches produced during the 1930's that the movement had been created by Martel.
> 
> The next year in *1933 *Universal launched *the world's first **two pusher chronograph with three counters*. (other sources say it was *1934*).
> 
> The chronograph with three subdials, another important and exciting improvement which remains a classic until today!
> 
> Thus the two chronograph movements were born which Martel was going to make for 37 years (1932-1969).
> 
> These two could easily be made in different sizes : of 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16 lignes.
> Zenith named them according to their size *cal. 122, 136, 146, 156, 166*. They are all basically the same, different in size only. Each can be made with two or three counters: cal. 136 *D *and cal. 136 *H*, and so on.
> 
> Universal used the same movements and of course their own caliber codes, caliber 281 and so on.
> 
> It should remain clear that Universal had the initiative. Zenith perhaps got in the project thanks to its investment power in those days. Exactly at which date Zenith got in the project, we don't know, but it was probably quite early.
> 
> In *1933* *Raoul Perret*, the son of Georges Perret (the co-founder of Universal Watches in 1894), came in charge of Universal. The same Raoul Perret can be found in *1935* on the board of administration of Zenith :
> 
> View attachment 647873
> 
> 
> Through Raoul Perret the Universal and Zenith Watch companies could easily cooperate in the field of the new wristwatch chronographs with two pushers.
> 
> Thanks to this cooperation Zenith from the beginning around 1932 had the same first wristwatch chronographs with two pushers available, as Universal had.
> 
> Take a look at this 1930's advertisement for Zenith chronographs:
> 
> View attachment 647874
> 
> 
> This probably dates to around 1932-35. It could be the first known advertisement for a two pusher chronograph. The title is : "_A new chronograph caliber with two pushers_".
> 
> The text mentions that it is one and the same caliber for different sizes_,_ with as a result the ease of interchangeable parts : a characteristic of Martel calibers.
> Zenith praised the extraordinary quality of the movement and the reasonable price.
> 
> The advertisement also mentions that the chronograph dials could easily be exchanged. This is interesting, because it is possible that changing the dial was about the only thing that Zenith had to do in the making of these chronographs. There is a plausible theory that in this period not only the movements were made by Martel, but the chronographs were then also cased by Universal, before they were delivered as complete chronographs to Zenith.
> 
> In any case since Martel was making the movements, all there was left for either Universal or Zenith was adding the dials, hands, and cases to the movements, with the company names and numbers.
> 
> An example of the gold watch in the advertisement, an early 1930's Zenith chronograph with two pushers and Martel movement (Zenith caliber 136), can be seen in this thread :
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/my-grandfathers-zenith-596561.html
> 
> In Roessler's book about Zenith, we can also see several examples of early Zenith chronographs with two pushers, made in the 1930's (p. 216-218).
> 
> Around *1936* Universal then introduced the "_Compur_" and "_Compax_" names for chronographs with two or three subdials. Zenith used these names as well.
> 
> Roessler shows some Zenith chronographs from this period with 'Compur' on the dials (p. 219-220).
> 
> From advertisements we also know that there was a direct and open collaboration between Universal and Zenith, both using the Compur and Compax name. This advertisement for the Compur must date to ca. 1936 :
> 
> View attachment 647882
> 
> 
> Here is another one :
> View attachment 648342
> 
> 
> And here is an advertisement from the same period (ca. 1936), where we find Zenith (and Universal is mentioned as well) advertising the Zenith Compax :
> 
> View attachment 648264
> 
> 
> Next we should mention the renaming of Universal as *Universal Genève* in *1937*. (Again I found some uncertainty about the exact date: some sources cite 1934, but 1937 is more likely to be the correct date).
> 
> Due to the succes of the chronographs in *1941 *Universal Geneve had to build a new, ultramodern production line for chronographs (see for instance : http://www.montreshorlogerie.com/histoire-montres-universa-geneve.html ).
> 
> From this follows an example of a mistake which originates from one site, and is then copied by others. The opening of a new production line for chronographs in 1941 was misinterpreted by somebody as the founding date of Martel. This mistake has since spread to more sites, who copied the wrong information. As a result, some people have started believing that Martel was only founded in 1941. Please note that Martel was _not _founded in 1941 by Universal, as it had already been founded in 1911 by Georges Pellaton-Steudler.
> 
> Around *1942* the *Martel/Universal Geneve/Zenith *collaboration then led to *the first wristwatch chronograph with date*. (see for instance Page Modèles)
> 
> A Zenith example of the first chronograph with date can be seen in Roessler on p. 217.
> It is estimated by Roessler as "1930"(s), this should probably be "1940"(s). Interestingly the movement is signed with two caliber codes : "287" and "146" (a Universal Geneve and a Zenith caliber code for the same movement).
> 
> But this chronograph with date was only the last step before Martel came to make the star product, the *first wristwatch chronograph* *with full calendar and moonphase *in *1944*.
> 
> And Zenith also got it: an example of the Zenith "Tricompax" can be seen in Roessler p. 221.
> 
> Then towards the 1950s it seems that Universal Geneve shifted its attention more and more to that other novelty of those years : the automatic wristwatches. This eventually led to the Universal Geneve *Polerouter*, which (starting in *1954*) became another success for Universal Geneve.
> 
> Zenith in the meantime started using the Excelsior Park chronograph movements as well. During the 1940's, starting ca. 1942, a movement was made by Excelsior Park which was then used by Gallet, Girard-Perregaux and Zenith for their chronographs (see Page Modèles).
> 
> Still at the same time Zenith remained faithful to the Martel chronographs as well.
> 
> Thus for a period of ca. 10 years (1946-1956) Zenith used both Excelsior Park and Martel chronographs.
> 
> We then find Martel ca. *1956 *happily, independently and optimistically doing business.
> 
> Martel all the time had continued to supply Zenith and Universal Geneve with chronograph movements during the 1940's and '50's.
> 
> But now they also had watches under their own brand name.
> 
> View attachment 647888
> 
> An interesting non-chronograph with full calendar and moonphase.
> 
> Around 1956 they can be seen advertising for their own new automatic watch with date.
> View attachment 647891
> 
> View attachment 647892
> 
> View attachment 648308
> 
> 
> Note how this ad mentions that the watch was made in the best Martel tradition of precision and that Martel already had more than *40 years *experience at that time :
> 
> "...*precision workmanship and impeccable quality guaranteed by Martel's 40 year reputation for dependability and outstanding service to the watch trade*."
> 
> This funny ad dates to ca. 1957 :
> 
> View attachment 647894
> 
> 
> Shortly afterwards, around *1958*, Zenith bought the entire Martel Watch co.
> Usually *1960 *is cited as the date of the acquisition (for instance by Roessler). Elsewhere I read *1959*. But in Roessler's movements and calibers' list (p. 32) 1958 is indicated as the date when they effectively started with the Martel 25x2 movements.
> 
> Not only was Martel the supplier of excellent chronograph movements for Zenith since (at least) the early 1930's, by 1956 they also had developed a modern automatic watch (with rotor), with date, and the same Martel precision. Zenith could use a modern automatic movement. Until then Zenith only had bumper automatics.
> 
> The Zenith Martel cal. 25x2 could also be used for handwound watches. It became the main Zenith movement line during the 1960's and '70s (until 1975). It was further developed and updated by Zenith almost every year during the 1960's, until ca. 1975.
> 
> At the same time the Zenith Martel chronographs could be continued and developed further, now also by bringing all the new technologies together : wristwatch - chronograph ; automatic - with date; with the addition of a very high frequency (a novelty from the 1960's).
> 
> As a result, in *1969* the *Zenith El Primero *was born.
> 
> Martel had made *the worlds' first automatic wristwatch chronograph movement*.
> 
> And not only that : they made it straight away with chronometer precision; with three counters; with date (and quickset); they made it ultra-thin; with a very high frequency (36000 bph); and yet very solid and stable, durable and reliable.
> 
> In *1971 *followed *the worlds' first automatic wristwatch chronograph with full calendar and moonphase (*Zenith *Espada)*.
> 
> Unfortunately for Zenith and the mechanical watch industry in general, at the same time during the '60s other people had been experimenting with electronic and quartz watches.
> 
> As a result *Bulova*, owner of an electronic watch movement, was able to buy Universal Geneve in *1967*.
> 
> And in *1972* a *Zenith radio (and television) company* was able to buy Zenith watches.
> 
> In *1975 *the Zenith radio company ordered Zenith watches in Switzerland to stop the production of mechanical movements altogether, including the chronograph production in Martel and selling the Martel building and destroying all their tools.
> 
> _Will you still need me, will you still feed me,
> When I'm sixty-four?_
> 
> Martel was 64 years old, when it was not needed any more.
> 
> Fortunately Charles Vermot (who for 40 years was chef of ébauches production at Zenith), at that time went against the foreign orders and saved many tools, machines as well as know-how from the Martel building, which all proved to be very valuable for Zenith ten years later in 1985 when the El Primero was revived. Charles Vermot was a visionary and saved the finest tools and machines from the Martel plant in Ponts-de Martel.
> 
> You can see a moving interview with Charles Vermot on the Zenith site :
> http://www.zenith-watches.com/en/#/manufacture/saga/el-primero/saving-el-primero/movie
> 
> A golden age came to an end, however soon to be revived.
> 
> In the early 1980's a few business men bought up the old stocks of Zenith's Martel chronograph movements (both automatic as well as handwound chronograph movements), cased them, and sold them with a profit.
> Soon orders for new movements followed and around *1985 *the El Primero was resurrected.
> 
> The rest is history.
> 
> Through the El Primero, which is now more alive than ever, the legacy of the small Martel Watch Company from Les Ponts-de-Martel also lives on.
> 
> But it also lives on in the many fine watches from the past, such as most Zenith chronographs starting from around 1932 and many Zenith watches from the 1960's (until 1975).
> 
> *In memory of the Martel watch company, founded a hundred and one years ago (in 1911) in Les Ponts-de-Martel by Georges Pellaton-Steudler. Among its accomplishments are the world's first wristwatch chronograph with two pushers (1932), with three registers (1934) with date (1942) and with full calendar and moonphase (1944); and the world's first automatic wristwatch chronograph (with three registers, date, high frequency and ultra-thin) (1969) and with full calendar and moonphase (1971). *


Great article, nice to see confirmed what i allready knew. 
I happen to have two of these handwound chrono's.
One is an old Zenith 156 tricompax with a 18k rosegold case made in Besancon France according to Zenith's response to my questions.
The other one is from the '80's both running great still.
Here are the pic's.
Enjoy.
Gerton.


----------



## sempervivens

Welcome to the forum.
The first one is not made in Besançon but Switzerland; Zenith simply can't place the case numbers, because it was delivered by Universal Genève and has their case numbers. Going by the dial style it was made ca. late 1940's or early 1950's. It looks like the dial was restored.
The second one dates to ca. 1969/70. It should have a case number on the back, unless that was polished away. The style of the bridge signature is somewhat unusual.
Nice pair, fairly rare with the hour counter.


----------

