# Steinhart released a new ST.5 automatic movement



## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

Not sure how many of you noticed it. But here it is:
Steinhart Watches - fine exclusive timepieces


Automatic caliber ST.5 11 1/2''
Hour, minute and central second
Date display with quickset function
Hacking second
Anthracite galvanized bridges in cube-design
28,800 vibrations per hour
25 jewels
Shock protection with geometrically shaped, rotating spring
Decorated, skeletonized gilt rotor

Sounds like an ETA 2824-2 with decorated bridges and different rotor. Anyone knows about other actual changes to the movement made by Steinhart themselves? I can't say i'm all hot for the looks of it, it is kinda weird looking for some reason. Is there more than we can see from photos?


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks, this movement was announced about a month ago and has been the subject of several threads so far


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## garydusa (Jan 16, 2013)

_Well, for myself....I'm all hot for it, and proud of Steinhart for taking the steps to bring the new movement together with their newest release of the "Ocean One Vintage"!__

I'm wearing my "ST.5" now!!...._










...ok, so I couldn't just pass up this opportunity to post another pic!...:-x


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

RejZoR said:


> Not sure how many of you noticed it. But here it is:
> Steinhart Watches - fine exclusive timepieces


Oooh brother... hopefully you had received enough warmth hibernating with the bears in those early winter countries... 
It's a ETA2824, with decorations "designed" by STEINHART. ETA makes the movements for 'em.


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Ed.YANG said:


> It's a ETA2824, with decorations "designed" by STEINHART. ETA makes the movements for 'em.


Not exactly. It's not a true "in-house" designed movement as it is undoubtedly an ETA-2824 clone, but ETA and the Swatch group have no role in the production of the ST.5.

ETA continues to limit the number of it's finished movements which it makes available to 3rd party makers like Steinhart, they are certainly not entering into agreements to produce clones of their own movements for the 3rd party's. The whole point of this movement is to provide a valid alternative to the ever increasingly hard to get ETA-2824 so Steinhart doesn't continue to experience delays and shortages like it has over the last year or two. Most 3rd party makers are actively seeking less dependence on ETA, the ST.5 happens to be Steinhart's solution to the problem.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

RejZoR said:


> Sounds like an ETA 2824-2 with decorated bridges and different rotor. Anyone knows about other actual changes to the movement made by Steinhart themselves? I can't say i'm all hot for the looks of it, it is kinda weird looking for some reason. Is there more than we can see from photos?


ETA makes custom movements for other watch brands for many years, famous brand like Breitling also has the movements (with all decoration) done by ETA.

BTW, it's a good move by Steinhart, a time-tested movement like the 28xx will give the watches a reassuring factor.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

It is also possible this could be one of those "Swiss" made 2824's that have the parts made in China and put together by the Swiss. Valanvron? Seems easier to make the "Steinhart in house" movement happen this way, rather than an actual ETA. I'm just throwing out a guess.....but it's likely when we consider the price point of the watch.


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

This thread is starting to just rehash all the previous ones.

- this is not an ETA made, produced, decorated, etc movement. It is a Swiss clone of an ETA2824, nothing else.
- Breitling buys completed ETA movements then customizes them themselves, not vice versa.
- the ST.5 is just as Swiss Made as ETA. Both, like pretty much everything else manufactured on this Earth, contain parts made in China. Everyone just needs to get over that.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

mithrilG60 said:


> This thread is starting to just rehash all the previous ones.
> 
> - this is not an ETA made, produced, decorated, etc movement. It is a Swiss clone of an ETA2824, nothing else.
> - Breitling buys completed ETA movements then customizes them themselves, not vice versa.
> - the ST.5 is just as Swiss Made as ETA. Both, like pretty much everything else manufactured on this Earth, contain parts made in China. Everyone just needs to get over that.


Those are some bold facts, do you have some links so that I could know a bit more in details ?


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

lvt said:


> Those are some bold facts, do you have some links so that I could know a bit more in details ?


Regarding Breitling, Google is your friend. It's very well documented that Breitling, along with many other luxury brands such as Omega, IWC and Panerai for years bought and used ETA ebauches as the basis for many of their movements. ETA produced the only the blank templates, Breitling customized it and made it their own movement. Since ETA stopped supplying incomplete movements Breitling has continued to use it's stockpiled ETA ebauches while their own in house movements were developed. The B01 was first to come from that effort. Any ETA movements current purchased by Breitling are fully finished and, just like everyone else, if they want to customize them they tear them down and start replacing parts. If you want a quick source this is an interview with Breitling's Martketing Director which confirms it. ETA did not and does not provide Breitling with customized movements, nor have they done so for any brand outside those in the Swatch Group since 2010. They do however still sell complete movements which 3rd party makers like Steinhart buy and put varying degrees of customization on, typically cosmetic.

Regarding the ST.5; search for the other threads started at the time of it's announcement and read those. The Chinese Conspiracy Theory and claims that the ST.5 is actually an ETA produced movement have been discussed ad nauseum already, there's no need to regurgitate that discussion again. The quick and dirty synopsis is what I've already said; it's an ETA clone, not ETA movement, intended to reduce Steinhart's dependency on ETA and while it probably does contain some Chinese parts it's as Swiss any other movement bearing that mark.

Starting point: https://www.watchuseek.com/f275/new-upcoming-releases-steinhart-764546-34.html#post7013169



Triton said:


> _As many here have guessed already, the new ST.5 is the same basic construction as the ETA 2824, making it an efficient workhorse for a selection of our automatics. The important part is, that it's Swiss Made and that the components for it are sourced from Swiss manufacturers that are not owned by any large holding company, making it an independent option for STEINHART. It has been tried and tested extensively and promises to be a very reliable and precise engine. The ST.5 will not replace the ETA 2824-2, we will continue to gladly work with ETA for as long as possible. But like the 2824, the ST.5, although decorated, will not be observable through an exhibition case back._


Additionally this concept that Chinese parts are somehow inferior is frankly just stupid, and not just as it applies to the watch world. The majority of manufactured goods currently produced involve significant amounts of Chinese materials and/or assembly. It's a simple fact of life in a globalized economy which makes it uneconomic to manufacture goods in most developed nations.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

^ whatever...


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

mithrilG60 said:


> Additionally this concept that Chinese parts are somehow inferior is frankly just stupid, and not just as it applies to the watch world. The majority of manufactured goods currently produced involve significant amounts of Chinese materials and/or assembly. It's a simple fact of life in a globalized economy which makes it uneconomic to manufacture goods in most developed nations.


I'd love to reply to this in detail, but that would mean derailing this thread onto a tangent. In short, yes, Chinese parts are a reality of modern day manufacturing, but to assume that they are always on par with those that they've replaced is a big mistake. I also disagree with the statement that it's not economical to manufacturer goods in "developed" nations; private businesses are driven by profit margins, something that they selfishly maintain at all costs. Manufacturing goods in your own backyard is often still a possibility, but it would would result in smaller profits, a scenario that most companies refuse to entertain.

As for this repeat thread, and with respect to the ST.5, Steinhart is doing what needs to be done in order to keep its business model of offering affordable watches moving forward. And its customers need to be cognizant of the fact that affordable watches DO NOT contain in-house movements. The bottom line is that there are other "Swiss-made" options for watch movements now aside from ETA, and Steinhart has decided to personalize one of those options with decorations of its own design while managing to keep its pricing modest. The adage that you get what you pay for should never be forgotten, but when it comes to Steinhart, it would be hard to dispute the claim that its watches represent some of the best _bang-for-your-buck_ options available to a watch buyer.


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## nb101 (Aug 20, 2012)

Uwe W. said:


> I'd love to reply to this in detail, but that would mean derailing this thread onto a tangent. In short, yes, Chinese parts are a reality of modern day manufacturing, but to assume that they are always on par with those that they've replaced is a big mistake. I also disagree with the statement that it's not economical to manufacturer goods in "developed" nations; private businesses are driven by profit margins, something that they selfishly maintain at all costs. Manufacturing goods in your own backyard is often still a possibility, but it would would result in smaller profits, a scenario that most companies refuse to entertain.
> 
> As for this repeat thread, and with respect to the ST.5, Steinhart is doing what needs to be done in order to keep its business model of offering affordable watches moving forward. And its customers need to be cognizant of the fact that affordable watches DO NOT contain in-house movements. The bottom line is that there are other "Swiss-made" options for watch movements now aside from ETA, and Steinhart has decided to personalize one of those options with decorations of its own design while managing to keep its pricing modest. The adage that you get what you pay for should never be forgotten, but when it comes to Steinhart, it would be hard to dispute the claim that its watches represent some of the best _bang-for-your-buck_ options available to a watch buyer.


Hear, hear!!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Reaper85 (Apr 6, 2013)

Shock protection looks the same as on Hangzhou 6300 or the Sea-Gull ST2130.
Not that I mind, if only the movement is assembled in Swiss by a qualified person in a clean environment, and everything works as it should, I am satisfied.
Of course I wouldn't mind a teardown and a comparison to Swiss ETA or Sellita.

But seeing as Sea-Gull makes perfectly fine movements by themselves, the two ST2130's I own are one of my best movements, I think we shouldn't have to worry, as this one can only be better.


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Uwe W. said:


> I'd love to reply to this in detail, but that would mean derailing this thread onto a tangent. In short, yes, Chinese parts are a reality of modern day manufacturing, but to assume that they are always on par with those that they've replaced is a big mistake. I also disagree with the statement that it's not economical to manufacturer goods in "developed" nations; private businesses are driven by profit margins, something that they selfishly maintain at all costs. Manufacturing goods in your own backyard is often still a possibility, but it would would result in smaller profits, a scenario that most companies refuse to entertain.


I never said all Chinese producs are fantastic, however the implication always associated with the term "Chinese parts" is that anything made in, coming from or containing parts from China is inferior crap. The simple reality is that with very very few exceptions most products now contain Chinese contributions; and that includes everything from cheap dollar store tat to the most expensive and exclusive luxury brands. I also never said you can't manufacture wherever you want, you certainly can. Whether you can do it and be competitive enough to survive is a different matter. You can if you are in certain segments where the customer is willing to pay the higher associated costs. Most brands are not in that level.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

If it is sourced from Sea-Gull I'd have to say I'm amazed with the accuracy...


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Refer to the comment I quoted from Triton (that is the official Steinhart account on WUS). This is not an Chinese movement, period.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

mithrilG60 said:


> Refer to the comment I quoted from Triton (that is the official Steinhart account on WUS). This is not an Chinese movement, period.


I read what you posted / they quoted but that does not prove it's not Sea-Gull parts assembled in Switzerland using some Swiss parts and all Swiss labor. I believe it would still technically be Swiss Made and that would be likely and would resolve these two significant issues;

1 - cost. This watch is affordable and it would seem virtually impossible to provide a full Swiss manufactured watch at this price point.

2 - design. As previously shown in photos, it looks identical to the Sea-Gull. You don't think so?

Look, I like Steinhart and own the O1V (and have owned several others) so I'm not coming from a "hater" perspective, rather a common sense one.


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Believe whatever you want, personally I choose to believe the manufacturer when they say the parts are sourced and assembled by Swiss companies but you're free to believe it's Chinese labelled Swiss if you want. Either way. I'm not arguing this any further.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

mithrilG60 said:


> Believe whatever you want..........
> 
> .......Either way. I'm not arguing this any further.


I will.

Thank you.


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## kelt (May 17, 2013)

Hoppyjr said:


> ...../
> 2 - design. As previously shown in photos, it looks identical to the Sea-Gull. You don't think so?
> 
> Look, I like Steinhart and own the O1V (and have owned several others) so I'm not coming from a "hater" perspective, rather a common sense one.


Sea Gull manufactures ETA copycats, hence the similarity in design.

There is a difference in the movement decoration, Steinhart's Swiss has a nice finish while the Chinese copy shows rough tooling marks.


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## zpyder (Jun 17, 2010)

Regarding the look of the st5,my very first thought when I saw it was "batman". To me it screams Gotham city, body armour, and the detail on the rotor if looked at from the corner of the eye looks like the bat logo...? 

Sent from my GT-N8010 using Tapatalk 4


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

kelt06 said:


> Sea Gull manufactures ETA copycats, hence the similarity in design.
> 
> There is a difference in the movement decoration, Steinhart's Swiss has a nice finish while the Chinese copy shows rough tooling marks.


I do agree, the ST.5 is finished much nicer. I also think the shock protection on the ST.5 looks identical to the movements of Chinese origin, but nothing like the ETA 2824 (see previously posted photos). This leads me to assume these movements come from China, likely in disassembled form, and are finished and possibly upgraded in Switzerland. This would allow them to be legally called Swiss Made, but also explains the aforementioned similarities to the Chinese movement.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

I know Triton well enough to say that he's a stand-up guy. And if he states that the ST.5 isn't a Chinese movement, then it *isn't* a Chinese movement regardless of whatever "Swiss-Made" wordplay is being applied to it.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Who is he Uwe?


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## Reaper85 (Apr 6, 2013)

It took me some time to figure out what you wanted to ask.
Uwe meant Triton by "he". Particularly he meant this post:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f275/new-upcoming-releases-steinhart-764546-34.html#post7013896

But this is not true for me:


> the components for it are sourced from Swiss manufacturers that are not owned by any large holding company


Which Swiss manufacturer has that kind of shock protection? ETA and Sellita have different. Only Chinese Hangzhou and Sea-Gull have the same kind. So for me this isn't a Swiss manufacturer.
I think they should just be honest.

EDIT:
I also found Valanvron, but it is exactly the same as ST.5, ST2130 finished in Switzerland:
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Clone_Movements


> The Valanvron watch company in Switzerland assemble and finish ST21 ebauches as legally 'Swiss Made' movements, designated Valanvron 24.


So I think this debate can be finished.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

^ Yes, I understood Uwe meant Triton but I was asking who Triton was. Is it Gunter?

Also, I do believe its based on the Val-24 and that is fine, I would simply like Steinhart to acknowledge this if correct. 

Finally, while the Val-24 may qualify as Swiss Made - and it is surely Swiss finished and assembled - I don't agree this is "Swiss parts and manufacturing" in the traditional sense. If correct, I understand the Val-24 to originate, at least in component form, in China not Switzerland....


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

To further clarify; I don't object to watch manufacturers using MIC sourced components, I only desire that they be transparent about it. I also like to know the "full story" about products I purchase.


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## dpeter (Sep 8, 2012)

Same here, would also like to know the origin of a product. A small word like based on movement.... . Trying to hide it with a new name does not make it better.


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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

Reaper85 said:


> ... this is not true for me ... So for me this isn't a Swiss manufacturer... I think they should just be honest.


That's a pretty caustic remark on your part; I hope that you're sure of yourself...



Reaper85 said:


> Which Swiss manufacturer has that kind of shock protection? ETA and Sellita have different.


From Wikipedia:
_...The 2824 is an automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement, available in four executions or grades: Standard, Elaborated (improved), Top and Chronometer. The key components which differ at the line of demarcation between Elaborated and Top are the barrel spring, *shock protection system*, pallet stones, balance wheel & hairspring and the regulator mechanism._





















dpeter said:


> ...Trying to hide it with a new name does not make it better...


I didn't feel like Steinhart's statement is trying to hide anything...

What's up with with all the conspiracy theories, anyway... :think:


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm not trying to turn it into a conspiracy, I would just like confirmation/clarification on the origin of the movement.


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## bvc2005 (Mar 15, 2007)

Makes sense to me. Full disclosure is the best form of business.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Hoppyjr said:


> Who is he Uwe?


The only Steinhart representative who posts on WUS; he's the company's watch designer.


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## mlb212 (Sep 17, 2013)

Uwe W. said:


> The only Steinhart representative who posts on WUS; he's the company's watch designer.


I like your work.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Uwe W. said:


> The only Steinhart representative who posts on WUS; he's the company's watch designer.


Thanks Uwe


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Travelller said:


> That's a pretty caustic remark on your part; I hope that you're sure of yourself...


Exactly. Personally I thought it was pretty impressive that he was able to, on the basis of nothing more than some relatively low resolution pictures off the internet and random conjecture, determine with absolute certainty that Steinhart's watch designer was in fact intentionally misleading everyone as to the source of the movement. I wish I had that level of insight |>


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## Reaper85 (Apr 6, 2013)

That was actually not me. When I first found out about this movement, I Googled it, and on both pages I found, they were quite positive it is a Chinese Hangzhou or Sea-Gull movement.
New Things at Steinhart and Archimede | watch reviews on worn&woundwatch reviews on worn&wound - under commentaries
Neues Werk von Steinhart - Kaliber ST.5 - UhrForum - Seite 5 (use translate)

But yes, I am now looking at my ETA 2824-2 standard grade, and it has the same shock protection.

So for now, anyone can believe what they want. I am still not convinced that all parts are made in Swiss, it is just impossible for this price.


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## adzman808 (Jun 9, 2012)

Reaper85 said:


> I am still not convinced that all parts are made in Swiss, it is just impossible for this price.


This intrinsically rings true.

It's all about the supply chain at the end of the day

If company X buys a complete movement from company Y, then company Y buys components from companies A, B, C, & D, who in turn outsource manufacture of these components to companies E, F & G

There's a whole alphabet of supply chain here guys, it's how the world works

Personally my only concerns would be is the product worth the money & how good the watch is, and only time will tell with the ST.5....

iirc there's a Tag with a movement that started off life as a Seiko (& is labelled Swiss made!)

If it truly bothers "you" about where the parts of your watch are manufactured, then do a lot of research & find your self buying very expensive watches from a fairly small selection of brands that are not owned by groups and fashion houses....

Or chose to continue with the spirit of brands like Steinhart, offering good watches at great prices


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## Riker (Mar 31, 2007)

Fella's this isn't going to go any further from Steinharts end. Triton has clearly put it out there the origins of the movements so that should be seen as enough. Anyone expecting they should know will never be told the entire in's & out's in question here & rightly so. It is proprietary information of a private company. Ask the same of many other quality movement/watch manufacturers about movements/parts, case production & their origins & you are likely to get a similar answer. Regardless of where the raw materials come from the end result is a Swiss manufactory producing a product & sourcing their raw materials from a number of legitimate & respectable sources. The top quality of their products rests on the top quality of the parts used.


Further, as far as Triton is concerned he is an integral part of Steinharts operation. A consultant, chief designer & doyen of the Steinhart brand. The few comments he makes here about Steinhart & their products are very much appreciated & supported by the business.


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## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

Hoppyjr said:


> I would just like confirmation/clarification on the origin of the movement.


SWITZERAND.


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## bvc2005 (Mar 15, 2007)

Switzasia is more like it.


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## at2011 (Jan 23, 2011)

Aesthetics wise, I find the ST5 ugly, very unappealing and cheap looking. Sorry, that's just my opinion, not meant to hurt anyone's feelings.


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## Tony A.H (Aug 2, 2009)

Reaper85 said:


> I am still not convinced that all parts are made in Swiss, it is just impossible for this price.


 some Think that if they Pay More they got their money's worth.!!:think:
there's a big Mark up on Goods especially when it comes to Big Names.

Swiss Watch Manufactures as you know make a Huge Profit.. HUGE.
take a Panerai for Example. a Base Model with a Simple UNITAS 6497 Caliber Cost over 5 Thousand Bucks, and you can Buy a Nicer & Better Movement with Complication from OMEGA for that kind of money and maybe even less.. 
doesn't that make you Wonder why some Charge More than others ??! simply because they can.

also, you pay Premium when you buy it Brand New, and take a loss around 40, 50, and even higher % when you Sell it slightly used. 
has the Quality Changed when you Bought it Used for Half the Price than when it was New. ? No
so that explains my very 1st Point

I believe that Steinhart Watches are Priced Low and sold for a little profit. 
I also believe that in order for some to stay afloat and healthy in this Competitive Market is to: Sell More for Less.. 
that's my humble opinion. of course.

Cheers


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Reaper85 said:


> That was actually not me. When I first found out about this movement, I Googled it, and on both pages I found, they were quite positive it is a Chinese Hangzhou or Sea-Gull movement.
> New Things at Steinhart and Archimede | watch reviews on worn&woundwatch reviews on worn&wound - under commentaries
> Neues Werk von Steinhart - Kaliber ST.5 - UhrForum - Seite 5 (use translate)


So you read another user forum and the *user comments section* on an opinion blog then took that as gospel truth and a basis call Steinhart out as intentionally misleading everyone as to the source of this movement? Nice |>



Reaper85 said:


> I am still not convinced that all parts are made in Swiss, it is just impossible for this price.


You mean the same price that was being previously charged for watches containing an ETA movement? Your logic in all this makes zero sense.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Reaper85 said:


> I am still not convinced that all parts are made in Swiss, it is just impossible for this price.


I don't think that's the question here given that ETA movement parts are not all made in Switzerland either. At this price range you have to expect some percentage of Chinese content. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, even though from first-hand experience I would debate that the quality of those parts is not on par with the ones that were formerly manufactured elsewhere.

The real question here concerns the movement supplier, which according to Triton and what I believe to be true, is that it's a Swiss-based company. Where that particular company gets its parts from is another matter, perhaps a moot one given that it's unlikely anyone here will get an official answer for the first part of the question.

I get that people want to know what's under the hood of the products they buy. But is that a question that is ever completely answered? Like so many other consumer products, with watches at this price level you just have to expect that it's a mix of parts made in various countries because that happens to be the reality of manufacturers wanting to maintain healthy profit margins.


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## rightrower (Feb 19, 2013)

garydusa said:


> _Well, for myself....I'm all hot for it, and proud of Steinhart for taking the steps to bring the new movement together with their newest release of the "Ocean One Vintage"!__
> 
> I'm wearing my "ST.5" now!!...._
> ...ok, so I couldn't just pass up this opportunity to post another pic!...:-x


Probably my first time seeing this watch. I have not been checking steinhart since my last steinhart.

Beside the movement, it resembles a favorite of mine - blancpain ff.

Looks like a winner - vintage diver look with in-house movement. Is it like blancpain, the power reserve can last 100 hours?

If so, I will be drooling.

*drooling* 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

rightrower said:


> ...it resembles a favorite of mine - blancpain ff... Looks like a winner - vintage diver look with in-house movement. Is it like blancpain, the power reserve can last 100 hours?


Yeah, well... the "vintage diver" part is correct... 








_c/o Bernhard_


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

rightrower said:


> vintage diver look with in-house movement. Is it like blancpain, the power reserve can last 100 hours?


It's not an _in-house_ movement: "A very important step in this direction is the development of our own watch movements, and now we have, *with the help of our Swiss partners*, succeeded in introducing a new automatic caliber to the market."

As for the reserve, I don't recall having seen an official number, but I'd be shocked if it wasn't in the 40-hour range.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

And how about the accuracy numbers? Is it unadjusted or adjusted? And if adjusted, to how many positions?


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Okapi001 said:


> And how about the accuracy numbers? Is it unadjusted or adjusted? And if adjusted, to how many positions?


If you read through the https://www.watchuseek.com/f275/ocean-one-vintage-951185.html thread you'll find that it's as accurate as the 2824-2, which was to be expected. That means it's on par with the majority mechanical movements. How many positions was it adjusted to? I don't know, but does it really matter if a watch is already running in or around COSC specs?


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

I could care less what specs say or how it's adjusted. Mine is running around +4 daily (that is my average since delivery). Impressive.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Hoppyjr said:


> I could care less what specs say or how it's adjusted. Mine is running around +4 daily (that is my average since delivery). Impressive.


Yes, it is impressive. I recently bought a Hamilton with an ETA 2801 and it's running +20 s/d - and that's a watch that came from a Swatch Group company, the same corporation that owns ETA. I rarely wear the same watch for more than one day, so it really isn't an issue for me, but with a +4 accuracy you can wear a watch for two weeks and still be within the same minute of its set time.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Uwe W. said:


> If you read through the https://www.watchuseek.com/f275/ocean-one-vintage-951185.html thread you'll find that it's as accurate as the 2824-2, which was to be expected. That means it's on par with the majority mechanical movements. How many positions was it adjusted to? I don't know, but does it really matter if a watch is already running in or around COSC specs?


There are 4 grades of 2824. Standard is adjusted to 2 positions, elabore to 3 and top/chronometer to 5. ETA obviously thinks it's important for buyers to know that (and all other information about accuracy) so I believe Steinhart too should release official information about adjustment and accuracy of its movement. And some additional infromation (about material used for main/hairspring and shock system) would be nice, too.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Okapi001 said:


> There are 4 grades of 2824. Standard is adjusted to 2 positions, elabore to 3 and top/chronometer to 5. ETA obviously thinks it's important for buyers to know that (and all other information about accuracy) so I believe Steinhart too should release official information about adjustment and accuracy of its movement. And some additional infromation (about material used for main/hairspring and shock system) would be nice, too.


I'm well aware of the differences in ETA grades, the various materials used in their construction, and the different shock absorption systems fitted to each. All of those specs make for very compelling reading and present a nice rhetoric for promotional materials. However, in the absence of such detail, does any of it really matter when in the real world your watch equipped with a Standard grade movement keeps time as well as one powered by a Top movement? I own many watches that run on ETA movements and they vary in grade from the lowly Standard to the better spec Top, and more often than not, when it comes to accuracy it's impossible to tell them apart.

I get the theory behind higher spec movements, the lure of a better shock absorption system, and I even somewhat understand the desire to buy a watch with a movement that has all the latest and best features. But is there an appreciable real world reason for wanting those movements?

Granted, this might be an oversimplified example, but this discussion reminds me of hockey sticks. The majority of guys that I play hockey with are best described as typical men: They are swayed by high-tech solutions and are on a constant hunt for the best equipment money can buy because they're convinced such gear will have an appreciable effect on their play. As a result many buy the lightest and most exotic composite sticks available even though in the real world those sticks do very little to improve their shots, and even less to improve their game. Conversely, I buy the cheapest wood sticks available because I know in the real world the difference between a $400 and $40 stick - in my hands - is negligible. That's how I feel about ETA movements too. Why pay more for something that is supposed to perform better on paper when on your wrist you would be hard pressed to prove it has an edge in performance over a lower grade movement?

I'd suggest that you contact Steinhart directly with your questions. Ask for a breakdown of parts used in the ST.5 and how it was regulated post-assembly. And IF you get an answer, please share it with us; although I agree that it would be interesting information to know, I doubt that it would have much of an impact on the majority of Steinhart buyers who are happy to just get a decent watch for an even more-decent price.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Uwe W. said:


> Conversely, I buy the cheapest wood sticks available because I know in the real world the difference between a $400 and $40 stick - in my hands - is negligible. That's how I feel about ETA movements too. Why pay more for something that is supposed to perform better on paper when on your wrist you would be hard pressed to prove it has an edge in performance over a lower grade movement?


Exactly, and that's why I don't buy ETAs at all - Seagull ST2130 performs equally well for less than half the price. But that has nothing to do with the desire to be informed. I'm a certified Sceptic and instantly suspicious if the company is hiding any such information. In other words - for me the information that the movement is Swiss made is not enough, regardless of its performance. Otherwise why bother with the "Swiss made" info in the first place - knowing that the movement is accurate should suffice. Are you sure that the "Good movement inside" would have the same effect as "Swiss made" on the dial?;-)


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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

Uwe W. said:


> I'm well aware of the differences in ETA grades...


Now there's only one grade... "crispy" :-(

Swatch fire strikes at heart of watch mechanism production | Reuters


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Travelller said:


> Now there's only one grade... "crispy" :-(


And when it turns out to be arson, can you imagine having to compile a list of suspects? ;-)


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## mlb212 (Sep 17, 2013)

Uwe W. said:


> And when it turns out to be arson, can you imagine having to compile a list of suspects? ;-)


i.e. every non-swatch group company that uses or used ETA movements


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

The movement does appear to be highly based on the chinese movement. It is expected at this price range. 

Does any one have any preliminary accuracy data on the new St 5 movement? Runs strong?

Thanks.


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

usc1 said:


> The movement does appear to be highly based on the chinese movement. It is expected at this price range.
> 
> Does any one have any preliminary accuracy data on the new St 5 movement? Runs strong?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not sure if it's in this thread or not, but a few of us have posted accuracy info. Mine is running a consistent +4 daily rate, since receiving it two weeks ago.


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## twintop (Nov 16, 2012)

usc1 said:


> The movement does appear to be highly based on the chinese movement. It is expected at this price range.
> 
> Does any one have any preliminary accuracy data on the new St 5 movement? Runs strong?
> 
> Thanks.


Mine has an average daily rate of -4sec


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

Promising to see it is accurate thus far. thanks.


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## Lost Cosmonaut (Apr 14, 2009)

Ooh! Ooh! Let me beat a dead horse too!!

All I know is the more O1V pictures I see posted, the more I gotta have one!

It's a good thing guys like ETA and Rolex and others are so perfectly 100% honest about the sources and construction of all their movements and parts, so that we can criticize a dark horse for trying to stop suckling the reluctant teat of the big names. ;-)


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Lost Cosmonaut said:


> Ooh! Ooh! Let me beat a dead horse too!!
> 
> All I know is the more O1V pictures I see posted, the more I gotta have one!
> 
> It's a good thing guys like ETA and Rolex and others are so perfectly 100% honest about the sources and construction of all their movements and parts, so that we can criticize a dark horse for trying to stop suckling the reluctant teat of the big names. ;-)


Where in WA are you? If in the Seattle area I'll let you buy me a cup of coffee and ogle my O1V....


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## Lost Cosmonaut (Apr 14, 2009)

Hoppyjr said:


> Where in WA are you? If in the Seattle area I'll let you buy me a cup of coffee and ogle my O1V....


Yeah, I better not, I'd probably start throwing my wallet at you!


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## Hoppyjr (Aug 11, 2006)

Lost Cosmonaut said:


> Yeah, I better not, I'd probably start throwing my wallet at you!


You would LOL! Its a lovely watch, even better in person.


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## lgking (Nov 23, 2009)

Seeing how Steinhart's watch case...case-back...bracelet...bezel...crown...and (most likely) dial are Chinese produced, yet state that they are 'Swiss Made' is whole reason that anybody would question the source of this new movement. _"To further clarify; I don't object to watch manufacturers using MIC sourced components, I only desire that they be transparent about it. I also like to know the "full story" about products I purchase."_


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

This topic has been beaten to death several times in this thread already, so unless you have some form of verifiable proof that a reputable company like Steinhart is mis-marketing Chinese made watches, risking serious lawsuit under Swiss law in the process, perhaps it's time to these mildly paranoid conspiracy theory's go?


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## Riker (Mar 31, 2007)

lgking, I don't know where the base of your statement comes from but it is a negative on your thinking re Chinese produced cases, casebacks, bezels, & dial. They *are* manufactured in & sourced from Swiss branded & based companies. Maybe you are referring to where the raw materials are smeltered & turned into stainless steel or aluminum sheets as being sourced from China..? This could also be inaccurate to a degree as you would need to include Australia, S.Africa as other possible countries where relevant produced materials are sourced from.

I agree it would be a 'nice to have' knowing the 'full story' about products I purchase but I am not under any allusions in that ever being a considered reality. It will never happen & further no company is required to be 100% transparent in regard to furnishing proprietary information & they shouldn't have to be if they have legally legitimate proprietary considerations & sources to protect..



lgking said:


> Seeing how Steinhart's watch case...case-back...bracelet...bezel...crown...and (most likely) dial are Chinese produced, yet state that they are 'Swiss Made' is whole reason that anybody would question the source of this new movement. _"To further clarify; I don't object to watch manufacturers using MIC sourced components, I only desire that they be transparent about it. I also like to know the "full story" about products I purchase."_


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

It is not unreasonable to expect that some of the smaller components in the affordable movement would be sourced from Asia. Perhaps bigger assemblies. Nothing wrong with that if these are up to quality standards.
What people get upset about is how these partly rumours and partly facts undermine the myth of the superior Swiss watch engineering.
I had posted before about the Soprod movement used in some Steinharts; which is in fact almost certainly a Seiko design, and i did notice the icy silence on this matter by the regulars here 
But, I don't mind, I will soon have my superlume new flieger with Seikoprod and I know it will be awesome. I just find it funny how defensive people can get when confronted with this kind of information. Also witness the hoopla about the Tag Heuer chrono movements, largely based on Seiko as well - in my opinion a quality feature, not something to hide.


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Has anyone tried asking Steinhart? It would be interesting (assuming they answer)...


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Ipromise said:


> Has anyone tried asking Steinhart? It would be interesting (assuming they answer)...


Why wait? I sent an email through their contact page. And now, the waiting game...


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## mithrilG60 (Mar 21, 2010)

Ipromise said:


> Why wait? I sent an email through their contact page. And now, the waiting game...


There is no waiting game to be played, read the quote in post #10 of this thread. That is as official a Steinhart statement as you will get. If anyone still believes that Steinhart is passing off Chinese watches as Swiss I'd suggest they should contact the Swiss authorities rather than bumping up 6 month old threads on a topic that had already been beaten to death when this thread was started.

Of course the Swiss Made designation is one of the most vigorously defended trademarks in the world so you'd think that if a company as well known as Steinhart had been falsely passing off Chinese copies as Swiss watches for almost a year the Swiss would have already filed injunctions and began seeking legal redress. However I'm sure you're all right and these really are Chinese made movements, cases, crystals and dials :roll:



MrDagon007 said:


> I had posted before about the Soprod movement used in some Steinharts; which is in fact almost certainly a Seiko design, and i did notice the icy silence on this matter by the regulars here


There was nothing to say, anecdotal evidence of similarly to a Seiko movement aside, the Soprod A10 is still a premium Swiss movement. No one can, or has tried to dispute that. Nor are Seiko movements considered inferior to Swiss.


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## MrDagon007 (Sep 24, 2012)

mithrilG60 said:


> There was nothing to say, anecdotal evidence of similarly to a Seiko movement aside, the Soprod A10 is still a premium Swiss movement. No one can, or has tried to dispute that. Nor are Seiko movements considered inferior to Swiss.


Anecdotal evidence of similarity? In my opinion, pictures that demonstrate that they are EXACTLY the same are much stronger evidence than a mere anecdote. Yes, it is a premium movement, after all it was used in Credors, but the "Swissness" of it is not that clear. It is at the very least least not a Swiss design. Whether it uses japanese parts is not known. Interestingly Soprod never responded to a watchmaker on this topic.
Again, I don't mind the Seiko origin, stronger even - I think it is a quality. But it is amusing how this irritates people who strongly adhere to the swissness of their watches.


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

mithrilG60 said:


> There is no waiting game to be played, read the quote in post #10 of this thread. That is as official a Steinhart statement as you will get. If anyone still believes that Steinhart is passing off Chinese watches as Swiss I'd suggest they should contact the Swiss authorities rather than bumping up 6 month old threads on a topic that had already been beaten to death when this thread was started.
> 
> Of course the Swiss Made designation is one of the most vigorously defended trademarks in the world so you'd think that if a company as well known as Steinhart had been falsely passing off Chinese copies as Swiss watches for almost a year the Swiss would have already filed injunctions and began seeking legal redress. However I'm sure you're all right and these really are Chinese made movements, cases, crystals and dials :roll:
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## Riker (Mar 31, 2007)

Guy's I do not understand what all the fuss is about or why anyone would expect they should be told everything about the ST.5 & where it's movement or it's parts are sourced from. This is proprietary information of Steinhart & they are well within their right to say what they want & nothing more just as every other brand privately owned does. They are not answerable to us here & rightly so. They are not a publically listed company with a shareholder interests & as such are not answerable to anyone but themselves, one or two Acts governing proper business practice & the sale of goods & of course the tax man. If anyone believes Steinhart is hiding something in not divulging proprietary information to questions asked of them or utilising the 'Swiss made' moniker illegally then you should make direct representations to Steinhart outside of this forum. 

Fella's, they are good movements regardless of the original source & if they meet all of the particulars set out in Swiss laws in regard to what constitutes being 'Swiss made' & who is able to affix & use the 'Swiss made' term to an item then that should be enough for all of us here.


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## Ipromise (Jan 14, 2013)

Riker said:


> Guy's I do not understand what all the fuss is about or why anyone would expect they should be told everything about the ST.5 & where it's movement or it's parts are sourced from. This is proprietary information of Steinhart & they are well within their right to say what they want & nothing more just as every other brand privately owned does. They are not answerable to us here & rightly so. They are not a publically listed company with a shareholder interests & as such are not answerable to anyone but themselves, one or two Acts governing proper business practice & the sale of goods & of course the tax man. If anyone believes Steinhart is hiding something in not divulging proprietary information to questions asked of them or utilising the 'Swiss made' moniker illegally then you should make direct representations to Steinhart outside of this forum.
> 
> Fella's, they are good movements regardless of the original source & if they meet all of the particulars set out in Swiss laws in regard to what constitutes being 'Swiss made' & who is able to affix & use the 'Swiss made' term to an item then that should be enough for all of us here.


The fuss is we're all watch nerds.  What's the fuss about any watch, period? It's just curiosity and love of time pieces - that's why we're all here, right?

For me, if it's a good movement, I'll still buy it no matter where it's from.


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## Ed.YANG (Jun 8, 2011)

Pardon me for off track a little here... 
It was my yesterday's trip to Bayrons Bay in Australia where we passes by some plantations, that I come to know the existence of Banana and Sugarcane cultivation in the Eastern part of this pacific continent which most of us have stronger impressions that they may be much stronger on "cold fruits" such as grapes, apples, oranges, pears as well as other fruits that are not tropical spieces.
And it's kind of surprising that their national label, Holden Motors new range of cars are not built by Auspices anymore... But the Koreans.

So... Is there any relevance to the subject? 

It does. It's all about general impressions on consumer products. And on watches, it's getting more n more kind of confusing, and doubts grows stronger when Seven Days timepiece have Japanese movements used with their watches yet labeled with Swissmade.

Watch nuts like some... Including me, initially... Will tend to be doubtful of the ST5 movements if I just join this section not for long.

Eventually... Same kind of scenario will happen in Australia when a new immigrant comes in and perhaps wants to own an Australian car... Which he may thought it's Aussie Made...


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## Riker (Mar 31, 2007)

Ed, I get that you trying to align your comments to the topic in discussion here but it isn't entirely accurate mate. Even though Holden is Australian it is owned by GM in the US just as Opel in Europe is, Vauxhall in the UK is, various Koreans brands etc. For this entire arrangement to work there will be product sharing between the companies under the GM banner & this is the same for us here. *However, you are incorrect as we do have the Australian designed & made Holden Commodore*. In saying that it will cease production here after 2017 & Holden will then become an entirely import brand sourcing it's product from Opel, GM US subsidiaries & Korean subsidiaries. The same practice occurs in UK, EU & US.

OK, back to watch talk...


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## Talebi (Apr 20, 2012)

Even ETA sources some parts in Asia, yes it's common for them to do this and save on costs but I don't look at their movements any less. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Travelller (Apr 24, 2012)

Ed.YANG said:


> ...doubts grows stronger when Seven Days timepiece have Japanese movements used with their watches yet labeled with Swissmade...


I'd be thrilled to hear that the ST.5 uses Japanese* parts... ;-) I happen to think that Seiko's mechanical-watch division ranks up there with the best of the Swiss houses in terms of component and production quality (as well as other areas).

*And just so we're all clear, using the term "Asian" _(used recently by another poster)_ is much too generalized and should be avoided in all such discussions.


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## lumishield (Jan 5, 2014)

Well, the ETA 2824 patent expired so the design is basically can be made by other companies. With the 3D printer technology Chinese or not, the precision of the hi tech scanner & printer can be off only 10 micron ( which is 1/1000 of a millimeter). So the precision and spec are not a problem anywhere. Chinese hi-tech are very good now and not like 30 years ago. Many European or American companies are using Chinese companies to manufacturing super precision parts in aerospace industries as long as it has supervision by European or US Engineer. Apple use Chinese to make phones and computers. Using the 3D printing technology. I have seen Rolex Clone Caliber Movement to the exact spec even to the color gear and they dare expert to tell the different. This is not copy, but clone. The case can be milled to exact. It is scary. I am pretty sure real Rolex make their case and crown and movement in Swiss using 3D printing. Even carve out the ceramic bezel to save cost and have the precision benefit. Omega and Rolex did it but Tudor did not see this coming. Steinhart is a good company and they are very smart to manufacturing their movement. First, they can control production quantity, quality and cost, not rely on ETA. Second, they can control the services and part for repair. They can sell you one watch but you will be back for service or buy parts for servicing your movement. Third, they can sell their movement to other watch companies at cheaper cost when ETA limited their quantity production to raise price. More money here in the long run. Very smart CEO.


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## Chicawolverina (Jul 4, 2009)

Gosh though, even the name "Steinhart" sound like another Chinese owned brand. And this whole thing sounds like a similar argument about Seemeg 888's or whatever and how they claimed to have invented what was so obviously the Miyota, or DG design movement, and those come to us from the A. Schild calibers that were really originally Swiss designs. Really, these companies give the Chinese watch industry a worse name just for dealing with all of these Swiss Watch wannabe criminals that subvert the Swiss Swatch industry with all of their rotten money. Steinhart has to be liars at work, or they wouldn't be trying so hard to sound Swiss?


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## 25fishing (Oct 13, 2009)

All I know is I ordered a OVO last night and will be very happy to have it


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## bvc2005 (Mar 15, 2007)

Nothing like marketing....is there?


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## Laszlo Aspiens (Dec 6, 2015)

Respond, the real owners. The movement is good to use? You can buy it? They offer a bit used for a good price.


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