# Are panerai prices falling?



## socialpro

I just looked up 243's and they are being sold for mid 4K! When I picked up mine around a year ago they were all in upper 5s and thats what I paid for mine (full sets!)

I see tons of base pams now in the 3K range which again was hard to come by year ago. Anybody have any input on this?


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## Synequano

Yup,the pre owned price has fallen,people got bored with Panerai as they're stuck in their comfort zone for too long,now is the time to shop for older,nice models with significant discount

Now I just gotta hope for pre owned 368 for less than $10k LOL


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## nguyenquangdung1985

that is a good news or bad for Pam fan?


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## Raymond9010

I would love to add couple of PAMs to my collection, price is the major factor. it will happen.


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## Estilo

Definitely good news to me as I am in the market for a 112. Hope this price trend reaches my part of the world soon. Panerais are still highly popular here. 

If it's any consolation, my first and only expensive watch is a 214270. Explorers can't generally be counted on to price appreciate, but I don't buy watches hoping to profit from them.


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## Synequano

Whether it's a good or bad news is depending on the person

For me,with my already crowded,Pam-centric watchbox,it's a good way to get the pieces that I want at better price (117,190,368,203 came to mind...though 203 is still a long way to go)


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## gerzzzzz

Estilo said:


> Definitely good news to me as I am in the market for a 112. Hope this price trend reaches my part of the world soon. Panerais are still highly popular here.
> 
> If it's any consolation, my first and only expensive watch is a 214270. Explorers can't generally be counted on to price appreciate, but I don't buy watches hoping to profit from them.


Where are you based?


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## ilitig8

Synequano said:


> Whether it's a good or bad news is depending on the person


I just wish the bottom would fall out of the vintage Panerai market... just waiting to pick up an Egiziano Piccolo for $10-15k.


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## Synequano

If that's the case,then I do hope for 203 or 267 for 10-15k us$ LOL

C'mon collectors,why do you keep the watch when the price is falling


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## Hockeymonkey

I am a huge Panerai fan and it is interesting to observe that for the new Panerais, they have actually gone up in price. But I would agree with Synequano, Panerai designs are basically the same to those untrained in the brand. Plus like any "hot" brand in Hollywood, the fad will only last so long before something else is "hot". I think the used market prices will keep creeping downward and I doubt that most used Panerais will hold value as well as Rolex.


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## prs77

For true fans, it's great that prices are falling. It allows you to purchase pieces you've always wanted. If you're a watch flipper, then you should be slightly concerned.


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## gerzzzzz

Synequano said:


> If that's the case,then I do hope for 203 or 267 for 10-15k us$ LOL
> 
> C'mon collectors,why do you keep the watch when the price is falling


I'd jump like a fat kid in a donut store having 80% off


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## socialpro

Hockeymonkey said:


> I am a huge Panerai fan and it is interesting to observe that for the new Panerais, they have actually gone up in price. But I would agree with Synequano, Panerai designs are basically the same to those untrained in the brand. Plus like any "hot" brand in Hollywood, the fad will only last so long before something else is "hot". I think the used market prices will keep creeping downward and I doubt that most used Panerais will hold value as well as Rolex.


Yes I've been shopping around for a rolex (s) for the past few weeks and def notice that price holds very strong, especially relative to its 'new' price.

Lets hope the panerai downward trend does not continue long and de value the brand.


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## profzhu

Over here in Singapore the prices are taking a hit but not like how much it's tanking in the US. The brand has been too hot for the past decade. Private dealers made millions back when PAMs became popular but weren't imported to Singapore yet.

In general used watch prices for Rolex is cheaper in Singapore as compared to US but for PAMs it's cheaper to buy from US as compared to in Singapore.


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## nguyenquangdung1985

agree
But it should for some point of time. For long time, no one want the panerai value become too low


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## philskywalker

Raymond9010 said:


> I would love to add couple of PAMs to my collection, price is the major factor. it will happen.


+1


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## Keaman

Unfortunately for me I found out the hard way. I make it a point to never loose money on watches and always buy used. Panerai is the only brand I've lost money on (a lot) since buying used and flipping 3 of them. Unfortunately I never really gelled with them, maybe I just haven't had the right one yet.


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## smallappliance

Only in the secondary market...new models being offered are more costly.


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## Navy Sailor

I've just been recently scouring the net trying to learn more about Panerai and it seems they are actually affordable to me now! I'm all for a bit of a price drop. That is until I buy one and try to resell it haha!


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## Hockeymonkey

I was just in Hong Kong and a few of the places I looked in, the dealers were more than willing to negotiate. It seems that my friends are telling me that Panerai is falling out of favor in Asia (the Rolex prices still seemed high though). Then on the Archieluxury youtube channel, this guy is stating that Panerai is done/dead according to his dealer network.
I have always worried that Panerai was started by Hollywood and like all things in Hollywood, they tend to peak and die off as the movie stars are always looking for ways to be first in new trends. The question is what would they go to - Rolex? Tag ? Cartier? Patek? They all seemed played out in my mind. 
Given all of this turmoil, I am debating whether to keep my Panerai. I remember having the Tiffany G-57, a beautiful sports watch that was hot in LA. Paid $5k USD at the time for it and now I would be lucky to get $500. Panerais are a much bigger investment and the fall might be harder....


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## Synequano

With the fall of pre owned price,it's a good time if you want to go upmarket,recently I saw 190 and 233 asking for around $7500ish each,and the base models such as zero can go for around 3500ish (depending on conditions) is a good point to enter the world of Panerai with the strap craziness

In the middle level,there's 372 for around $6k

With the weaker pre owned price and crazy brand new price,I think I will buy mainly pre owned pieces for now...


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## TheITGuy

Synequano said:


> With the fall of pre owned price,it's a good time if you want to go upmarket...


Yes.....yes it is......


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## timetostart

I think about watches like I think about art ... Some artists create work that retains value from year to year. Some artists catch fire for some reason and the value of their work skyrockets. Most typically, the value of the work declines as trends and tastes change. The only metric one should worry about is whether they enjoy the work on a personal level. Deriving pleasure from market value (or celebrity favor) is a sure path to disappointment. 


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## Hockeymonkey

"The only metric one should worry about is whether they enjoy the work on a personal level. Deriving pleasure from market value (or celebrity favor) is a sure path to disappointment" - so well stated!!!!!


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## M.N.A

Hockeymonkey said:


> I was just in Hong Kong and a few of the places I looked in, the dealers were more than willing to negotiate. It seems that my friends are telling me that Panerai is falling out of favor in Asia (the Rolex prices still seemed high though). Then on the Archieluxury youtube channel, this guy is stating that Panerai is done/dead according to his dealer network.
> I have always worried that Panerai was started by Hollywood and like all things in Hollywood, they tend to peak and die off as the movie stars are always looking for ways to be first in new trends. The question is what would they go to - Rolex? Tag ? Cartier? Patek? They all seemed played out in my mind.
> Given all of this turmoil, I am debating whether to keep my Panerai. I remember having the Tiffany G-57, a beautiful sports watch that was hot in LA. Paid $5k USD at the time for it and now I would be lucky to get $500. Panerais are a much bigger investment and the fall might be harder....


Do you really rely on Archie for information on Panerai or any other brand for that matter !? Actually Panerai have lowered their asking price in early 2015 in the US market and yes they are little cheaper nowadays but not because the brand is dying or because the fad is over this is not true at all...

The fact of the matter is the brand has become more stable and mature now coupled with too many variations & increasing number of watches produced. 5-10 years ago the brand was more exclusive "some popular models were on waiting lists". Today the brand is more available, the competition is tough, and many parts of the world are in bad economic shape that is affecting the Swiss watch industry.

Personally, I believe Panerai is a strong brand, and more importantly the company it self is on top of things evident by their introduction of new models, concepts and in-house movements to name a few.

And finally, the prices of all watch brands have witnessed significant drop in prices in the past 2 years including Rolex, where many of their watches can be bought for a decent discount these days with the exception of very few models.


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## Hockeymonkey

@MNA, I agree that Archie is not a go-to source for information but I observed exactly what he was talking about in Honk Kong with large discounts. Having too many models creates brand confusion leading to less stability and lower prices (especially in the secondary market). The Panerai brand has a lot of different watches but to most non-Paneristis in the market for a $10k watch, they all look very similar. The fact is that there is a huge excess inventory on dealer shelves and you even see that in the Richmont group financials for Panerai.
While I love the Panerai brand, here in the United States the brand is going through a transition from Hollywood hot to cooling off as the movie stars who are the trend setters are moving on. While the older generation may appreciate a wind up watch, the young 20 and 30 year old demographic has shifted.The new cool thing is all about fitness, healthy and even connectedness - none of which the Panerai or even other luxury brands have. 
Only time will tell if Panerai stays big or goes back to the tiny small off brand that it was many years ago.


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## Estilo

M.N.A said:


> And finally, the prices of all watch brands have witnessed significant drop in prices in the past 2 years including Rolex, where many of their watches can be bought for a decent discount these days with the exception of very few models.


Please enlighten us where you've found 'decent discounts' for Rolex's, used or new, compared to their prices 2 years ago, for I only seeing hurtful premiums and am still punching myself in the jaw for not buying at the time.


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## M.N.A

Estilo said:


> Please enlighten us where you've found 'decent discounts' for Rolex's, used or new, compared to their prices 2 years ago, for I only seeing hurtful premiums and am still punching myself in the jaw for not buying at the time.


In my home country, the submariner with date is sold for $ 7,500 brand new from the authorized dealer, and you get bigger discounts for Rolexes that are more expensive made of precious metals.

I understand this might not be the case in other parts of the world however, Jomashop for eg is currently offering 18% discount on the sea dweller and there are some pretty good discounts for other models as well, I know it is gray market but I prefer a new watch rather than used one.

And buy the way, when you buy a used Rolex there is big difference if you buy it from a trader or from the owner, as traders usually make 10% - 20% gain on sales.

Finally, the thing with Rolex is they tend to increase their prices more frequent than other watch brands so what seems expensive today might be a good deal in 2 years time just my 2 cents


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## venom550pm

I called an AD today (for a PAM) and got a price quoted that was 13% of MSRP and I didn't even haggle.


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## Guelerct

Owning a Panerai I am fine to see a significant drop in price. I will still like them and will more easily put more models into my watch box!


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## Vingard

I was lucky to get in and out of a 390 without losing a cent. Not sure that would hold true now. Some dealers are even reluctant/unwilling to take Pams on a trade.


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## LikeClockWork

I hope! I'd love to snag a nice Panerai for a thousand bucks, but I'll keep dreaming


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## T1meout

Vingard said:


> I was lucky to get in and out of a 390 without losing a cent. Not sure that would hold true now. Some dealers are even reluctant/unwilling to take Pams on a trade.


Being out a PAM doesn't sound so lucky to me.


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## Estilo

Perhaps to make it easier for all let's chime in on where you've seen Panerai prices falling, whether local or somewhere you visited, and the market: used, grey market or brand new. 

I'm in Indonesia, brand new prices have not budged one bit. Used prices vary, but for the more common models they've been resilient. For other brands Indonesia's usually a great market to source bargains, BTW.


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## eesh

Hi,

Read this thread started by me, maybe it will indicate what is happening.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f23/my-d...ing-sub-why-i-did-not-buy-pam000-3339066.html


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## M.N.A

eesh said:


> Hi,
> 
> Read this thread started by me, maybe it will indicate what is happening.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f23/my-d...ing-sub-why-i-did-not-buy-pam000-3339066.html


I disagree with your approach on buying watches or rationalizing a watch purchase based on its cost price.

Rolex dealers make much more profit margin on Rolex watches than what you projected as is the case with all luxury goods especially jewelry, where gross profit margin is usually between 25 to 50%. Moreover, comparing Rolex prices to Panerai is not just. We all know that Rolex brand is more established, and is more known to the general public against any other brand period.

In my opinion, Panerai prices & resale value are still much better than many other watch brands such as Omega, Breitling, TAG ...etc.


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## MrBlahBlah

Always better to buy a watch you love and not worry about flipping. Purchased a new 574 and hope to have it for a long long time. 

That being said I totally understand the itch and sometimes you need to make room for new items in the collection. 

For me the Panerai was something I aspired to own so will hold it dear. 


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## snakeeyes

venom550pm said:


> I called an AD today (for a PAM) and got a price quoted that was 13% of MSRP and I didn't even haggle.


i get 20% off ss rolex here in canada...and i dont need to haggle....

whats your point?...discount is normal for ALL brands including AP PP VC etc....only a fool pays 'list'....ADs love fools....


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## snakeeyes

Estilo said:


> Perhaps to make it easier for all let's chime in on where you've seen Panerai prices falling, whether local or somewhere you visited, and the market: used, grey market or brand new.
> 
> I'm in Indonesia, brand new prices have not budged one bit. Used prices vary, but for the more common models they've been resilient. For other brands Indonesia's usually a great market to source bargains, BTW.


its all horsecrap.....the latest issue of watchtime 'Aug' has a great article on ALL brands suffering due to the 'grey' market and less demand in asia.......

anyone can get a rolex from a'grey' for MUCH cheaper than an AD......the resale market is flooded with run of the mill see everywhere submariners.....subs can be picked up cheap pre-owned these days as well......

its not just a Panerai thing.......as for trading in?....go ahead...trade in a rolex to an AD and see the 'haircut' you get........


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## Wlover

I don't get it. Buy what you like. Not what others like or what holds value better. It's strapped on your wrist anyway. 

My friends said I should try ap and pp but they just don't sing to me at all. 

Panerai FTW!!


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## Christopher Chen

I don't think it's hard to buy something that you like AND retains value well. Just keep shopping around the major brands and you'll find something nice.


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## ShanDaMan

Estilo said:


> Definitely good news to me as I am in the market for a 112. Hope this price trend reaches my part of the world soon. Panerais are still highly popular here.
> 
> If it's any consolation, my first and only expensive watch is a 214270. Explorers can't generally be counted on to price appreciate, but I don't buy watches hoping to profit from them.


Dream on mate. Common Indonesian only have 2 brands in their mind ATM. Rolex and Panerai. RM getting really famous as well for a wrong reason LOL (our chief of staff theatrically slam his RM). To make it worse, so many fakers try to act like they are worthy of their watch. Makes the Gen buyers looks like an idiot buying a Gen. Somehow, buying used in here is dodgy like hell.

If you wanted to get a PAM, buy it in singapore. Apply for BCA card buy cheap (promo) ticket then get it at the AD. Pay it with cash + CC. I think BCA has 1 year 0% installment. Tho, be prepared for your mates dissing you and thinking you're buying fake. I'm still in the market for my first PAM actually. Got one 114 and 632 on my name list if you want (base PAM is really hard to came by in here). Too bad I skipped them cause I got better deal for other brand. If you have Mandiri, you can get 24 months 0%. They were priced at Rp. 70ish M. PM me if you're interested. I'll hook you up with my concierge.

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## ShanDaMan

snakeeyes said:


> i get 20% off ss rolex here in canada...and i dont need to haggle....
> 
> whats your point?...discount is normal for ALL brands including AP PP VC etc....only a fool pays 'list'....ADs love fools....


Hey snakeeyes, do you get a VAT refund over there? Might be good to stop by in Canada during my flight to Portland for business trip.

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## tomatoes

This thread needs freshening up since 2017. It seems panerai has gone belly-up
in most parts of Asia. 

-Grey dealers refusing to take in more stock, plus offering unprecedented discounts.
-Panerai offering buy-back policies to overstocked ADs.
-Private sellers taking huge hits on resale.
-Richemont losing traction on profit margins (is suspect due to poor sales on panerai watches)

The current climate does not bode well for the brand, akin to the fate of Franck Miller which is kind of on its way out of the watch scene.

Anyone wanna chime in?


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## leograye

Maybe the revalue of the Swiss currency finally pushed the price of all brands to unrealistic values. It's easy to get 30 -35% discount. But overproduction and a slowing Asian market will always effect volume sales of every brand


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## Rwm514

FWIW, I recently listed a PAM 24 for sale on paneristi. I was told by a potential buyer that prices had dropped and I was asking too much. I almost dropped my price and sold it to him but within a couple days had many interested parties and sold it 2 weeks later for asking price which was $100 less than I paid for it in 2012.


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## EdmundGTP

The only trend of of downward price mobility I've seen recently among PAMs seems to be relegated to models that are slightly less popular, or instances in which the seller is eager to move the piece. Neither of which would actually qualify as a "trend" I suppose.


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## pukka

Vingard said:


> I was lucky to get in and out of a 390 without losing a cent. Not sure that would hold true now. Some dealers are even reluctant/unwilling to take Pams on a trade.


Dealers are unwilling to take PAMs on trade, not because of their failing popularity, but because the replica market for these are SO good now, it's almost impossible to tell real vs fake. Too many dealers/watch stores/pawn shops getting stung.


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## pukka

Q; with the recent "UPGRADES" made to many PAM lines, do you think the prices may stay strong for the previous generation models as demand for those may increase from paneristi purists?


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## Synequano

Locally I heard about increased demand for older models with more conservative colors on the dial (312/392) as opposed to the newer models with blued hands and "automatic" on the dial (1312/1392) but I'd guess the demand isn't that strong to demand increased price,especially in current market condition...

There's also increased demand for sandwich dial as opposed to painted on the P5000 8 days models


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## EdmundGTP

Synequano said:


> Locally I heard about increased _*demand for older models with more conservative colors on the dial (312/392) as opposed to the newer models with blued hands and "automatic" on the dial (1312/1392)*_ but I'd guess the demand isn't that strong to demand increased price,especially in current market condition...
> 
> There's also increased demand for sandwich dial as opposed to painted on the P5000 8 days models


I won't lie.. That aesthetic shift was part motivation for me to buy a 312 when I did (recently).


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## tomatoes

pukka said:


> Dealers are unwilling to take PAMs on trade, not because of their failing popularity, but because the replica market for these are SO good now, it's almost impossible to tell real vs fake. Too many dealers/watch stores/pawn shops getting stung.


Are you saying that dealers are not in the business to make any profit? Of course they are culling their pam stocks due to decreasing popularity, at least from what they perceive the current market to be.

But also of course, the replica market is just one of a myriad of reasons for the brand's recent decline.


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## pukka

tomatoes said:


> Are you saying that dealers are not in the business to make any profit? Of course they are culling their pam stocks due to decreasing popularity, at least from what they perceive the current market to be.
> 
> But also of course, the replica market is just one of a myriad of reasons for the brand's recent decline.


No - im saying dealers are not willing to take the risk on PAMs as much because there's a greater chance that they will be unable to tell if it's the real deal. Of course dealers are in the business to make money, but they aren't going to if they keep getting 99.99% replicas from sloppy trades. Better to just not take the risk in the first place. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.


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## MrButterman

pukka said:


> No - im saying dealers are not willing to take the risk on PAMs as much because there's a greater chance that they will be unable to tell if it's the real deal. Of course dealers are in the business to make money, but they aren't going to if they keep getting 99.99% replicas from sloppy trades. Better to just not take the risk in the first place. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.


So I can better understand the market....

I know you were trying to make a point, but is your belief really that 99.99% of 'sloppy' trades result in replicas? Is the consensus feeling that there are more reps out there than genuine pams? If so, has the move to in house (away from eta) helped to slow this or is the feeling that the mods have caught up at this point?

How does geography effect this? I live outside a major us city, and can honestly say I have never seen another Pam in the wild. This is of course anecdotal and doesn't prove much, but from the way it sounds sometimes you'd think everyone was running around with a fake.


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## pukka

MrButterman said:


> So I can better understand the market....
> 
> I know you were trying to make a point, but is your belief really that 99.99% of 'sloppy' trades result in replicas? Is the consensus feeling that there are more reps out there than genuine pams? If so, has the move to in house (away from eta) helped to slow this or is the feeling that the mods have caught up at this point?
> 
> How does geography effect this? I live outside a major us city, and can honestly say I have never seen another Pam in the wild. This is of course anecdotal and doesn't prove much, but from the way it sounds sometimes you'd think everyone was running around with a fake.


Maybe you misunderstood - I didn't say 99.99% of trades end in replicas, I said sloppy trades result in them taking in 99.99% replicas - as in, reps are so good these days that its just too much of a risk, sometimes even for the initiated.

To address your point - of course dealers are in it to make money, that's a given. Let's take the base PAM000 for example - rough preowned market value right now is ~$3750-$4000. Probably more so if we are talking dealer pricing. I would imagine it's far more likely that if the market demand and thus market value drops, dealers will just offer you less and make less of a profit, but still getting the sales. However, the PAM000 is also probably the most replicated PAM out there and the quality of those reps is SCARY good now. If there's the slightest chance that you miss something, even if you're paying a favorable trade in price, you're losing good money if you screw up your authentication - and with Panerai refusing to authenticate watches, you're on your own.

Obviously geographic location does play into it. I've seen my fair share of PAMs amongst the other brands. Not an everyday occurrence i'll admit, but they are out there. Now, whether they are all authentic, that's another story. Don't underestimate just how many replicas there are out there - I've found reps on ebay, Chrono24, WUS, even Panerisiti. Not saying people are scammers, sometimes genuine sellers have been duped and don't know what they have, but they are everywhere.

I'm not sure of your collection, but if you have ever tried to purchase a preowned PAM and done you're due diligence on ALL the tells of a replica of a particular model, it's enough to make you think twice, and many choose not to even get into PAM ownership for that very reason. I remember one purchase, I met the seller with a caseback opener and a loupe - felt like a complete d!ck, but you have to do what you have to do.

Maybe we are just coming at this from different sides, with different experiences.


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## MrButterman

pukka said:


> Maybe you misunderstood - I didn't say 99.99% of trades end in replicas, I said sloppy trades result in them taking in 99.99% replicas - as in, reps are so good these days that its just too much of a risk, sometimes even for the initiated.
> 
> To address your point - of course dealers are in it to make money, that's a given. Let's take the base PAM000 for example - rough preowned market value right now is ~$3750-$4000. Probably more so if we are talking dealer pricing. I would imagine it's far more likely that if the market demand and thus market value drops, dealers will just offer you less and make less of a profit, but still getting the sales. However, the PAM000 is also probably the most replicated PAM out there and the quality of those reps is SCARY good now. If there's the slightest chance that you miss something, even if you're paying a favorable trade in price, you're losing good money if you screw up your authentication - and with Panerai refusing to authenticate watches, you're on your own.
> 
> Obviously geographic location does play into it. I've lived in London and Chicago and seen my fair share of PAMs amongst the other brands. Not an everyday occurrence i'll admit, but they are out there. Now, whether they are all authentic, that's another story. Don't underestimate just how many replicas there are out there - I've found reps on ebay, Chrono24, WUS, even Panerisiti. Not saying people are scammers, sometimes genuine sellers have been duped and don't know what they have, but they are everywhere.
> 
> I'm not sure of your collection, but if you have ever tried to purchase a preowned PAM and done you're due diligence on ALL the tells of a replica of a particular model, it's enough to make you think twice, and many choose not to even get into PAM ownership for that very reason. I remember one purchase, I met the seller with a caseback opener and a loupe - felt like a complete d!ck, but you have to do what you have to do.
> 
> Maybe we are just coming at this from different sides, with different experiences.


Thanks for the additional insights. I do agree with the math - any 'deal' for a dealer on a used 'fake' watch is pure lose and not a way to run a business. So avoiding hat risk can be a smart move. I also agree that you can buy a fake from a well intentioned person who themselves believes it to be real. That is one point that made me hesitant to make the purchase online despite the many positive reviews/feedback and positive people on this and other sites.

I am new to PAM (have learned a good deal from the more experienced on this forum) and my only Panerai purchase so far is a preowned from an established AD (Pam 572). I did my research on this and other models (from here on WUS, from scouting the rep forums, other sites, etc.)

Mine came with box, papers, stickers, still stated as under warranty, etc. (no original receipt). As a side note, I don't think bringing a loupe is a dick move at all. As I've said in other threads, I went the AD route bc they have a reputation to protect by getting it right and if I and they did miss something and on its service it is flagged as fake, I'll have a physical store to go back to.

This discussion makes me ask another question, are the Panerai fakes any better or more prevalent than a Rolex rep? Again from a newbie position, from listening to everyone it sounds like the problem is proportionally much bigger for Panerai than other brands - or is this just bc I am reading a Panerai forum .......


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## jjvd21

Any AD I've spoken to about Panerai fakes / replicas has said they can spot one in 5 seconds once they have the case back off. 


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## pukka

jjvd21 said:


> Any AD I've spoken to about Panerai fakes / replicas has said they can spot one in 5 seconds once they have the case back off.


Of course they would, not likely to admit they can't tell the difference between a $200 rep and the heavily marked up watch they are trying to sell you.


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## jjvd21

It's obvious to me as well after doing a little research


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## Ruby8six

Ive never seen or handled a fake PAM but wouldnt it just feel off? Like the weight or balance not correct, the finishing not the same, things like that without even having to get into the movement.


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## EdmundGTP

Not that I like even putting out there, but if one were to take a few minutes and browse some replica watch forums, you'd be absolutely amazed at the lengths to which some are going to replicate PAM watches. To assume that one might be able to tell them apart simply by something as subjective as "feel" is nowadays ridiculous, to put it lightly. To the point that they're currently working to even replicate the correct Incabloc shock hardware (the most common current "dead giveaway"). There are reports of instances where even a legitimate PAM will be procured and split (movement/case) and used to create 2 replicas. Both of which would end up with a minimum of 50% of their critical features being completely indistinguishable from a 100% bona fide.. As others have put it previously, it is a scary prospect when dipping a toe into the second hand PAM market. 

One thing that the "newer" in-house movements has brought is an extra layer of conspicuous hardware that has not yet been duplicated. In other words, your odds of coming across an in-house movement PAM watch that's an indistinguishable fake are far far lower than encountering the same with any of the ETA based PAMs. It would seem to me that that factor, in and of itself, also lends some fuel to any price/value fluctuations, especially in the second hand market, and also especially with respect to price and value changes as they uniquely pertain to in-house vice ETA based PAMs.


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## leograye

If an AD cant tell a Rep Panerai without taking the case back off, they really don't know their stuff.
If you handle a rep, you'll see the lug casing is usually concave, where the Gen is full and flat.
Then the lugs are usually a different shape etc.
Even Rolex reps now have perfect repped movements, but easily spotted, as the metal is different (rough finish) to look at.


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## pukka

leograye said:


> If an AD cant tell a Rep Panerai without taking the case back off, they really don't know their stuff.
> If you handle a rep, you'll see the lug casing is usually concave, where the Gen is full and flat.
> Then the lugs are usually a different shape etc.
> Even Rolex reps now have perfect repped movements, but easily spotted, as the metal is different (rough finish) to look at.


It amazes me that people keep throwing it out there that ADs are these top level experts in their field. Do you think a watch manufacturer gives their sales staff training in spotting fakes? The people you talk to in a AD are nothing more than salespeople. Sure, they may know the history of the brand, but I've been in ADs and known more about the watches and movements than they have. They aren't an authority on real or fake watches, just there to take your money. Sure, there may be some higher level manager that may know more, but experts and the last word in authority on the matter - no. The only way you'll know for sure is to send said watch into the manufacturer themselves for verification - but hey, Panerai don't even do that, so swat up on the internet because that's all you have got.


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## pukka

EdmundGTP said:


> Not that I like even putting out there, but if one were to take a few minutes and browse some replica watch forums, you'd be absolutely amazed at the lengths to which some are going to replicate PAM watches. To assume that one might be able to tell them apart simply by something as subjective as "feel" is nowadays ridiculous, to put it lightly. To the point that they're currently working to even replicate the correct Incabloc shock hardware (the most common current "dead giveaway"). There are reports of instances where even a legitimate PAM will be procured and split (movement/case) and used to create 2 replicas. Both of which would end up with a minimum of 50% of their critical features being completely indistinguishable from a 100% bona fide.. As others have put it previously, it is a scary prospect when dipping a toe into the second hand PAM market.
> 
> One thing that the "newer" in-house movements has brought is an extra layer of conspicuous hardware that has not yet been duplicated. In other words, your odds of coming across an in-house movement PAM watch that's an indistinguishable fake are far far lower than encountering the same with any of the ETA based PAMs. It would seem to me that that factor, in and of itself, also lends some fuel to any price/value fluctuations, especially in the second hand market, and also especially with respect to price and value changes as they uniquely pertain to in-house vice ETA based PAMs.


THIS


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## chrisboulas

pukka said:


> It amazes me that people keep throwing it out there that ADs are these top level experts in their field. Do you think a watch manufacturer gives their sales staff training in spotting fakes? The people you talk to in a AD are nothing more than salespeople. Sure, they may know the history of the brand, but I've been in ADs and known more about the watches and movements than they have. They aren't an authority on real or fake watches, just there to take your money. Sure, there may be some higher level manager that may know more, but experts and the last word in authority on the matter - no. The only way you'll know for sure is to send said watch into the manufacturer themselves for verification - but hey, Panerai don't even do that, so swat up on the internet because that's all you have got.


That's the rule rather than the exception from what I've seen to boot. The majority of the time I know more than the AD does. Last time i was at the Rolex AD I asked when they expect to get more sub LV's in stock and they didn't know which model I was referring to.


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## korneevy

As long as you have papers, boxes, warranty receipts etc., most second hand dealers will take your watch on a trade, no questions asked in majority of cases...what's clear is that you'll get about 20-30% less than you could have been offered only 2-3 years ago, but that's not too different from other major brands out there (including most models from Breguet, Blancpain, JLC etc etc.. and if you ever try selling a used Breitling or Ebel, you'll cry your eyes out). So let's not go all negative on this, that's just a market correction that had to happen, Panerai had been red-hot for 10 years or so, with very strong (many said bubble-like) pre owned market etc, so people just need to adjust their expectations to reality and stop getting shocked when they get offers of 30-40 cents on the dollar for their used pieces. While I also happen to think that Panerai are not doing enough to put a stop to all that Chinese high end fakes supply, that's hardly the deciding factor in these declining sales, it is simply the case of over-expansion, over-production, market's change of preferences towards slimmer, smaller-size, elegant watches and the hollowing lack of real history or large vintage catalog to fall back onto that is damaging the brand. Prices have come down in the way of larger discounts offered by ADs and I think they will need to come down at full retail some 15%-20% more to start getting the market slightly more in line with the demand...what is an open question (for me) is whether Panerai and its CEO actually have the acumen and correct reading of the current situation they find themselves in to take difficult decisions, cull the excess, re-focus the brand and put some creativity into it (instead of greed). Not sure, not sure...


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