# accuracy of a seagull movement



## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi all

As you know last week I bought a timex luxury sports man watch fitted with one of the highest grade chinese made movements, the seagull st2504. Before I purchased it, the watch was timed at the machine at +8 sec per day, after a week of daily wearing, I have come to the conclusion that this watch is an oustandingly accurate watch. 
Here are the results, I observed during a week of daily wearing:
friday 30th january to saturday 31th january: +4 seconds
saturday 31th january to sunday 1st february: +10 seconds
sunday 1st february to monday 2nd february: +0 seconds
monday 2nd february to tuesday 3rd february: +0seconds
tuesday 3rd february to wesdneday 4th february: -1 seconds
wednesday 4th february to thursday 5th february: -3 seconds
thursday 5th february to friday 6th february: -2 seconds 

This watch is as accurate as any of my Omegas and also bear in mind that it costs 30 time less what a PO or a sub costs for exactly the same accuracy results. So where does such an accuracy come? The fact that most of the seagull movements have better tolerance and factory adjustment than some swiss movements out of the box. I know a guy who own a seagull moonphase since 6 months and who has an accuracy of +4 sec per week. On the openheart self winding movements from seagull the triovis regulating accuracy system is responsible of such a consistence in the accuracy. The triovis regulating system is a much better regulation device than the etachron which dislikes frequent services and is not very shock resistant.
From my personal point of view, I rate the seagull above the seiko automatics in terms of fit, finish and accuracy. Bare also in mind that the movement in my watch is not a cosced one, imagine if the chinese submitted their movements at the cosc!! The problem with Seiko is that very few watchmakers repair them, many watchmakers dislike the chrono movements from Seiko due to their very poor parts availability and crude finish. The main advange of the seagull or shanghai movements is that they are improved copies of eta, valjoux, piguet and venus movements. Seagull is quality wise on par with Lemania if we are speaking of the chronographs, tourbillons and other complications alone. And accuracy of any seagull movement is excellent out of the box. 

Some people will say: "but you can't compare a chinese brand that is unknown to a great swiss brand". I will answer them: "No" for these reasons:
-Chinese with Seagull have developped the same complications on movements than the swiss brands like Breguet and Blancpain: like the handwound column wheel chrono with moonphase, the double tourbillon, the carrousell tourbillon, the flyingwheel with openheart and the minute repeater
-Accuracy even if the watch isn't cosced is more than excellent, just see my results
-the price is 30th or 20 times less than what costs a swiss watch of an equivalent category.
This thread is mainly a food for thought for people thinking that Chinese made watches are inferior to Swiss made watches. For the anedocte, a guy with a 15000$ Blancpain asked me about my Timex Luxury Sports watch, he couldn't believe how much I paid for it. He told me :"That is a more than a lot of watch for the money." 

best regards

georges


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

1. Will it become widely recognized as collectible?

2. Will it's value hold or diminish over time?

3. How long will parts be available for it? Will seagull promise a decade or more of parts available after they stop producing the movement, if they ever do?

4. Service, or how well is service handled?


I can go on, but value is not always about how much money is saved. I am not comparing the above point to Omega, but just everything. All of the above points can be argued too. 

Your points about Chinese vs Swiss is hard to argue, and not the point I am trying to get across. I am glad you are happy with your watch, that is what is most important, but I am not put back that it is so cheap compared to my overpriced luxury Swiss watch, because I am buying more then the watch in most cases, and I know it.

I suggest that instead of comparing overall price of the watch, compare what is most important to your point:

What does the Chinese movement offer compared to a similar Swiss movement. But even that is difficult to equate in terms of cost, due to China's ability to produce at very little cost to themselves, so even cost is skewed in favor of the Chinese. So the Seagull movement is a good value compared to what ETA movement? Say a 2824-2? 

Good Luck!


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## DMB (Sep 9, 2007)

Good post Georges. A lot of the reluctance to purchase Chinese is just watch snobbery. My criteria for a watch is simple: Must look good and keep reasonably accurate time. I don't buy anything that I won't wear under any conditions, so no winder queens or Sunday "inside the house" watches for me. I don't buy for investments, status, or rarity. I buy them to wear and enjoy. If they are made in China ... so be it. ~ David


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

SpringDriven said:


> 1. Will it become widely recognized as collectible?
> 2. Will it's value hold or diminish over time?
> 3. How long will parts be available for it? Will seagull promise a decade or more of parts available after they stop producing the movement, if they ever do?
> 4. Service, or how well is service handled?
> ...


Hi spring driven

Before saying the Chinese movements are bad or whatever, here is some history about the Chinese watch industry:
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Chinese_Standard_Movement
Two main chinese movement and watch manufacturers are in the business:
Seagull
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Tianjin_Seagull
Shanghaï
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Shanghai_ZuanShi_(Diamond)_Watch_Factory
Seagull remained the most important one. Seagull is also recognized for its ability to make complications such as flying with open heart, double tourbillon, carrousel tourbillon, hand wound column wheel chrono with moon phase and minute repeaters.
Seagull produced clones of the 2824 and the 2892 that even beat the swiss eta, an article relative to these movement is here 
http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43661&st=0&sk=t&sd=a (for the anecdote M4tt suggested it to me, now I suggest it to you and read it from the first to the very last page)
Here are some seagull movements:
here is the st8004-2, a selfwinding tourbillon with retrograde date and retrograde power reserve 
http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=154 
(check how beautiful is the movement) 
here is the st8006, a hadwound tourbillon with regulateur hour and minute display
http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=156
here is the st3600 (a chinese improved clone of the eta unitas 6497-6498)
http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=163
here is the st2504 a derivative of the st26 which has retrograde date and power reserve (it is the movement that is in my timex, except that mine has a much better finish)
http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=127

Here are some seagull made watches, their styling is nice and they can easily take the comparison with the most prestigious swiss brands:
seagull m171s with retrograde day and date and flying wheel with open heart (as you can see the watch has beautiful case, dial and hands)
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=164
seagull m222s a nice aviator watch with a a high grade seagull st 36 (which is an improved copy of the eta unitas 6497-6498) http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=194
seagull st189s with gmt function, retrograde calendar and power reserve
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=180
seagull st9100g, a clone of the breguet handwound minute repeater
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=186 
seagull st8080, handwound watch with double tourbillon
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=200
seagull st8003 sa, clone of a breguet watch with a tourbillon movement
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=204
seagull st8007g tourbillon with moonphase, 24 hours indicator, power reserve indicator and calendar
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=210
seagull st2590 perpetual calendar with date hand at 3H,leap year hand at 4.5,month hand at 6H,week hand at 9H,moon-phase at 12H,
http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=188

1) Collectibility is depending of how unique and how good is the watch. Is a modern breitling or any eta based panerai collectible? No, not really because the movement are so common and these watch can be found in several thousand examples that they have no value on the market. Of course there is also the quality of the movement that says a lot. Also in 2010, brands that are not belonging to the swatch group will not be longer authorized to do modifications on Eta ebauches themselves. A watch like a Breitling will just remain another eta based watch. Collectible also means something unique, uncommon and never seen.
2) I think Chinese watches have a bright future, check some of the watches made by Seagull compare them to what ask the top tier swiss brands and you will see that the Chinese have enough major cards to conquer some intresting market shares in Europe.
3) I don't know, but knowing that Seagull produces a quarter of the world's mechanical watch movements, and has been manufacturing watches and movements since 1955, I don't think parts availability should be a problem.
4) Basically the seagull are as easy to service as any swiss movements, the problem is that you need have qualified personel to work on these watches and of course only experienced people can do it.

I hope this answered your questions and was enough convincing to see that a Chinese brand like Seagull has enough arguments to make the swiss brands nervous and/or frustrated.

best regards

georges


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## 9978 (Mar 13, 2007)

Would hardly think any Swiss manufacturers are losing any sleep right now.

While Chinese manufacturers are taking over in a lot of areas (mainly electronics and clothing and such) luxury watch buyers are not like your average consumer looking for cheap items and don't care where they were made. Those consumers will just go to quartz anyway.

It's going to be a tough sell to convince the distinguishing, educated luxury watch buyer - much less enthusiast - to buy a "Sea-Gull" branded watch over an Omega, Rolex, Patek, or what-have-you. Those who want a "nice watch" to enjoy and impress their friends know "Omega" or "Rolex". I'll risk it to predict "Sea-Gull" is not going to get a lot of oohs and aahs, tourbillon or no.

Take a look at Grand Seiko - there is undeniable excellence there, but they are not really popular outside of Japan. "Seiko" means something else here, and it's not mid or high-end mechanicals. I myself am checking out the links you provided.

Let's face it - the name on the watch dial is what counts to folks outside watch forums, and not what's ticking away inside. Not saying I agree with it, but it seems to be the truth.

That said, I'd certainly believe your statements regarding quality, technical prowess, etc. I'd certainly be interested to check them out. I really thank you, Georges, for providing this excellent information and sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm about these promising watches.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

You are welcome Frank. I am always pleased to share information and make people discover things they are unaware of and/or don't know necessarily the existance. Seagull is now looking to establish a network of retailers in Europe and in USA as well. I have given contacts of Seagull Europe to one watchmaker who I am good friends with (l'esprit du temps in St Germain en Laye) in order to be the first Seagull retailer in France. He sells watch brands which use Seagull movements and recognized that the potential of Seagull in France is important.
Of course Omega and Rolex are well liked brands but the price have skyrocketed in an unreasonable manner forcing people to buy something else. Marketing is marketing but value for money and outstanding price/quality ratio are not negligible especially when the purchasing power of the majority of people is not at its highest level. In time of crisis all costs more: food, gasoline, healthcare, electricity and costs of isp/telecommunications are also going up. The restricted budget of the average joe doesn't let him much choice when he wants a good watch offering the same level of quality than the top tier brands. In the european watch brands, Jacques Etoile, Nomos, Maurice Lacroix and Rainer Brand are what I would call reasonabily priced but for some people, they are still too expensive, that is why Seagull is the definite alternative. I mean who on the market offers a handwound column wheel chrono based on the venus 175 for less than 1000€???? None. And Seagull offers one which is nicely finished and that can easily take the comparison from the top tier brands.
Problem with quartz is that most of the swiss watch industry, (except Rolex (in the past till 2000-2002) and Omega (till 1980)) used basic eta electronic calibres, it is still the case today. I don't think that all people like quartz watches, I know I am not a fan of them anymore. Expensive quartz watches are nothing special. They are not really comparable with a nice mechanical watch. Not to mention that some batteries are not made for quartz movements anymore. Some people like marketing it is up to them. Marketing is not always synonymous of quality. Remember the 33xx story which was said to be one of the greatest Omega movements but which is still a mediocre movement even today.


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi spring driven
> 
> Before saying the Chinese movements are bad or whatever, here is some history about the Chinese watch industry:
> http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Chinese_Standard_Movement
> ...


You have answered many of my questions, by your answers. They tell me the following:

1. You did not read or understand what I wrote.

2. Your answers are well rehearsed and defended, which means you are not open.

3. Your point #3 speaks volumes about Seagull.

Listen George, there are levels to everything. This is what we call apples and oranges. Your Timex, and most Seagull movements, good as they are, are apples. The Omega and Rolex you want to compare to, are Oranges. You simply can't compare them except on very basic levels.

a. They tell time.
b. They are accurate.

To some that is enough, to others, there are many more things they desire.

None of which I have said here or earlier is meant to say that Seagull, or the Chinese Watches you are promoting, are bad in any way. I am positive that they are good. But as it has already been stated, Japan has incredible watches too, but they might as well be Blueberries if we try and compare them as well.

In the end, I am glad you like your watch, but I will pass on the Kool-Aid.

You might wonder why? "This is just as accurate, and $2000 less..."

1. I don't want Chinese products, there is a reason they are cheap, even if the quality is very high...

2. There is no love, no heart. What about all of the watch, for some, I need more then just a movement, and the Timex, or most anything that would have a Seagull movement in it, would fall short compared to my PO. I know this to be true.

3. Customer service I brought up before. Horror stories aside, I am sure that Omega/Rolex is miles better then anything Seagull or Timex would offer. I bet Timex would just send out a new watch... I think I would loose this fight, but I feel it would be a good one.

4. There is more then accuracy/complications when it comes to a movement. How efficient is the drive train? How long will it last?

I give up, I don't think I have the heart to continue, because I know what a base ETA 2824-2 looks like, and I know that Seagull probably does make a great movement, but I can only simplify my ramblings with Apples and Oranges, as it takes more then the movement to make a watch. Yes I have tool watches, and I have watches that I am very glad I can afford to own, a luxury... Apples, and Oranges...


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## 23fengshui (Aug 21, 2007)

I think you are both talking around each other, Springdriven (and others). Georges admires the technical aspects of movements and horological accomplishments. You bring up factors relating to market preferences and customer relationships with the company. Both opinions are valid but miss each others' points.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

SpringDriven said:


> You have answered many of my questions, by your answers. They tell me the following:
> 
> 1. You did not read or understand what I wrote.
> 
> ...


Hi spring driven

I understood what you wrote in a wrong way, my fault but I am all open for discussion.
If we speak about volumes, Rolex makes about 600000 to 900000 watches per year and Omega makes about 200000-300000 watches per year, so they are both making an important number of watches as well.
1) So cheap if I understand you, might not be fitting your standards, ok fine.
2) Your PO is a diver but it is matter of taste, and tastes are different like people.
3) From who did you horror stories? From people owning Seagulls? Were those epray purchased watches or new in box bought watches? I am all ears to hear these horror stories. I have heard more horror stories since 2003 from Omega USA at the time in was Lancaster as well as in Seacaucus than for what concerns Seagull. I am not also mentionning the despicable policy of Rolex service centres in USA especially the one in New York and the other one in Bevrly Hills with a more than crappy work on vinatge Rolex and poor regulating on modern Rolex watches. 
4) What makes you think the drive train is not efficient or won't last long? :-s

Do you think all the Seagull are based on the 2824-2? That is not the case, most of their openheart selfwinding movements with other complications are based on the st25, seagull's premium movement with complications (which itself a derivative clone of the st26 (which is itself an improved clone of the 2892 in its elaboré grade)). 
check the 
st2508 http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=129
st2505 http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=128
st2504 http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=127 
st2503 http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=126
st2502 http://www.tjseagull.com/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=125
You will notice that on all the winding system and the ball bearing are exactly the same than on the st26(chinese improved clone of the 2892).
The st25 is much larger than the 2892 in diameter 30.4mm of diameter for a st25 against 26.4mm for a 2892 and 7.4mm of height for an st25 against 4.6mm of height for a 2892. Jewel count is not the same as well, 39 jewels for the st 25 against 21 for the 2892. Bare also in mind that if you want to add complications on a 2892, you have to add dubois depraz or claret modules which are expensive and make the watch more fragile because the complications are not integrated as it is case in the st 25.
But of course one is entitled to judge not to like and/or like the Seagull. I own also vintage Omegas which are of excellent quality. I too can afford luxury watches but why would I pay something over 3000€ when I can have something comparable for the fraction of cost???

regards

georges


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## Sappie66 (Dec 20, 2007)

Good on you Georges. A very respectful reply to a somewhat disrespectful post. I see your point. I may not be inclined to follow suit for my own irrational reasons, but I see what you are saying.


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## 9978 (Mar 13, 2007)

Hey Georges,

I checked out the links you posted, and I really like some of the designs, especially the Aviator and the perpetual calendar. Really unique, and classy looking, and the movements thru the display backs look well done. I only wish there was more English on the sites so I could learn more.

I'd love to be able to see these in person. Biggest issue so far - they couldn't come up with a better name than "Sea-Gull".

Thanks again for posting this - it's nice to see some fresh, new watches to check out and discuss, instead of re-hashing the same old stuff...


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## Henry T (Feb 9, 2006)

Among my collection of Swiss, German and Japanese watches is this Tianjin Seagull Chronograph. Yes, for a fraction of the price of a Swiss one. I like it. 


















Why do some people look at a low priced watch unfavourably and readily accepts a higher priced one as good quality? Answer: marketing, and the Swiss have done very well.

Watchmaking is not rocket science. Even rocket science technology can be acquired and skill honed. What the Chinese watch industry lacks is image. They will get there and who knows, one day it may be fashionable to be seen wearing a Chinese watch. Remember, in the 1960s, Japanese products are a joke, but not anymore.


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## Anthony (Jan 14, 2007)

I wouldnt like to get anything, and specially not wristwatches, made in china, because usually they do not work.

But thats just me.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

fmalloy said:


> Hey Georges,
> 
> I checked out the links you posted, and I really like some of the designs, especially the Aviator and the perpetual calendar. Really unique, and classy looking, and the movements thru the display backs look well done. I only wish there was more English on the sites so I could learn more.
> 
> ...


glad you liked them I think the websites will evolve when Seagull will get a more international distribution. Ok the name Seagull is not perhaps as known as Rolex or Omega but the products when seen in person are enough convincing to see that Seagull shouldn't be underestimated.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

I totally agree with your post Henry T. BTW nice plaaf chrono reedition


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

It depends which range of watches, you are talking about Anthony. The alpha are without a doubt the cheapest chinese watches and the movements are very far to equal the Seagull watches. People was before reluctant to buy Seiko but after they have seen that Seiko wasn't that bad and started to buy them. But the Chinese Seagull selfwinding movements like the st25, the st24 and the st26 have one big advantage over Japanese Seiko movements, the fact that they can be wound manually thing that is impossible with a Seiko or with an Orient. Also out of the box accuracy is far more than excellent, with a basic Seiko, accuracy is more or less acceptable. The Grand Seikos are of course another league but they are not distributed worldwide. Also, I wouldn't consider a Paneraï as better than a Seagull watch especially when a Paneraï is more a typical product of marketing than something else. Same comment can be said about Breitling who just engrave Etas with the Breitling name, make them pass the cosc tests and charges between 3000-4000$ for a watch which offers just another more than very common eta.
I judge a watch by its ability to offer something innovative, different and with a movement of the highest quality. Seagull offer interesting complications for a real bargain price. Compare what a swiss brand charges for a watch of the same category, the swiss watch costs 30 times more and the price is not always justified.


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## Henry T (Feb 9, 2006)

The Chinese did themselves no favours by having a thriving copycat industry, but hey, many other countries also started that way. IMO, this may be the negative impact to their image.

The Chinese' contributions to the world are: paper, gunpowder, compass & the escapement mechanism (_installed in an ancient clock and driven by a water wheel._)

The current world population is slightly more than 6 billion with 2/3 (about 4 billion) in Asia and the Pacific. With such a huge potential market in her backyard it is in China's best interest to improve her product quality and image. A country can't be in the OEM industry forever. She has to build up her brands. Look at Japan, Korea and Taiwan today.

China was slowed down by one generation due to her self imposed isolation while under Chairman Mao. She has a lot of catching up to do, that's for sure. The human spirit is strong. She will grow from strength to strength.

Their watch industry is just a small part of the jigsaw puzzle. Btw, I understand that some smaller European brands are using Chinese movements in their watches now.


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## graybabs (Jun 10, 2007)

I cannot comment on the accuracy/quality of Chinese watches but I can say that at Christmas 2007 I bought the most expensive watch I have ever had, (a Tutima) which has spent more time at their factory than I have worn it. Within 2 weeks the chrono would not reset and 6 weeks later when it was returned, the timekeeping was all over the place, then it stopped. Back to the factory again for another 6 weeks and it was no better, then it stopped again and the back fell off . This time it has taken since October and it is just back at the AD. I have told them to check it, if they think it's OK to sell it, I am so fed up with the whole thing, I never want to see it again .
The moral is, if you like it and it works ENJOY it and it doesn't matter what name is on it, and this applies to all goods not only watches.


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## watchboffin (May 24, 2008)

georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi all
> 
> As you know last week I bought a timex luxury sports man watch fitted with one of the highest grade chinese made movements, the seagull st2504. Before I purchased it, the watch was timed at the machine at +8 sec per day, after a week of daily wearing, I have come to the conclusion that this watch is an oustandingly accurate watch.
> Here are the results, I observed during a week of daily wearing:
> ...


The accuracy seems to have settled the latter part of the week as the daily deviation was varying quite wildly and outside cosc the first few days.

It would be interesting to see if it's holding the current consistent 1-2 sec deviation per day for the coming weeks. 
This is quite amazing for an affordable movement.

As someone else mentioned, how long it could run consistently & the length of time before it needs a service 
would also need consideration before a direct comparison can be made with a luxury swiss movement.

My Dad loves the Seagull brand. He collects Seagull cameras with design copies of some famous German camera brands. I assume they're part of the same company being chinese.

Thanks for the insight :-!


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

watchboffin said:


> The accuracy seems to have settled the latter part of the week as the daily deviation was varying quite wildly and outside cosc the first few days.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if it's holding the current consistent 1-2 sec deviation per day for the coming weeks.
> This is quite amazing for an affordable movement.
> ...


Hi watchboffin

The only day where the watch ran outside cosc specs was day 2, where i gained 10 seconds, for the rest of the days it was in the cosc norms (-4 to + 6 seconds per day are the cosc norms). The only way to know how long the watch runs consistently is to daily wear it for years.
This is my first seagull based watch and it won't be the last one.


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

Sappie66 said:


> Good on you Georges. A very respectful reply to a somewhat disrespectful post. I see your point. I may not be inclined to follow suit for my own irrational reasons, but I see what you are saying.


Great, I have an Anti-Cheerleader... Wooo... <|

Anyways.

So, George, good reply, I will try and follow suit so we are seen as being on the same page. 23fengshui has a good outlook on our conversation and I hope to wrap it up here.

I cannot just buy a movement. I have to buy a watch. With that being said:

1. Cheap is a negative term, I should not have used it. China can maintain a low cost margin for their products that others cannot maintain. For this reason alone I am suspect of their luxury products.

2. You deflected my PO comparison to a Seagull watch, by talking about a diver watch compared to a Seagull dress watch. I was trying to say that if I put an Omega next to a seagull, say my PO, the quality of the PO will outshine what ever it is the Seagull has. Not that it looks like a Diver, but:

The dial, the hands, the applied markers, the case etc... The PO as a whole will demonstrate a higher standard, and this alone is what I am trying to base my argument on. One of the new ATs with the cal. 8500? I bet no contest, and this is apples and oranges, Swiss Luxury to Chinese Luxury. Nothing to do with marketing, just higher quality.

I DO AGREE with you George that the Seagull can and will and does compete with many Swiss Luxury brands that use base ETA movements. But there is a point where this comparison ends and becomes pointless and it will be obvious to someone who know what he wants in his watch.

3. I meant horror stories about Omega, not Seagull. I am certain that Omega has better service because they can afford to. What kind of warranty does the Timex come with, or a Segull brand watch?

4. I did not want to imply that a Seagull is inefficient or weak. I mean to say that the art in making an Orange from an Apple is by making the Apple better then when it started, or making an Orange from the beginning. An example, the 1120, derived from a base ETA gained some hours of operation by being more efficient. 30T2 to 30T2RG... There is always room for improvement. How long will this ST25 in your Timex run smoothly before needing regulation or a service? Maybe a long time, do we know? This is something that is improved upon in some luxury watch brands over a base model mass produced movement.

The 2892 vs the ST25... It got bigger not smaller, not a good indication of tight tolerances or machining standards. It has more jewels, but I know that means very little. Remember the 50j movements of the 60's? Sorry, that just is not impressive. It is well known that a base movement only requires 17j, and that 23j is about the max effective jewels a movement can use, any more is either wasted, marketing, or for extra complications. (Autowind, stopwatch etc...)

Here is your final qoute:

I too can afford luxury watches but why would I pay something over 3000€ when I can have something comparable for the fraction of cost???

So, as 23Fengshui said, you are very impressed with your Chinese movement. I can agree with you that it can stand on it's own (I know I can see the difference) and compete against some base ETA movements. But your final statement is vague, what are we comapring? Based on what you wrote we are comparing movements. And what I am trying to say is that there is more to a watch then a movement, and you pay for that. Quality, Luxury, Service, Resale. I am not saying you are wrong for considering your purchase a bargain, I am saying it is not a fair comparison to be so broad in your statements as to just knock everyting else over. I can empathize with you, that there are many Swiss watch brands that cost too much and are nothing special. I think this is what you are aiming at, and I am ok with that.


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## watchboffin (May 24, 2008)

georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi watchboffin
> 
> The only day where the watch ran outside cosc specs was day 2, where i gained 10 seconds, for the rest of the days it was in the cosc norms (-4 to + 6 seconds per day are the cosc norms). The only way to know how long the watch runs consistently is to daily wear it for years.
> This is my first seagull based watch and it won't be the last one.


I was referring more to the differing change of rate between one day to the next the first few days & not so much the average daily rate...I think the mean variation rate for cosc is 2 seconds. So this was out of cosc spec the first 3 days.

Once the average daily rate is say -2 seconds every day then the mean variation rate is theoretically zero and this consistent -2 seconds daily loss could be easily regulated closer to zero absolute.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Accuracy of the saegaull based st 25 timex week 2:
friday 6th february to saturday 7th february: +0 
saturday 7th february to sunday 8th february: +0
sunday 8th february to monday 9th february: +0
monday 9th february to tuesday 10th february: -2
tuesday 10th february to wednesday 11th february: +4
wednesday 11th february to thursday 12th february: +0
thursday 12th februrary to firday 13th february: -3
excellent accuracy so far confirming the of the shelf accuracy from the st25 which is itself based on the st26. The accuracy is exactly the same from the one you get from on Omega or a Rolex.


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## 124Spider (Feb 1, 2009)

It's kind of amusing to see this thread, at the same time there's another one about "value" in watches.

I absolutely understand those who would only buy Rolex or Omega (or the like). They are beautiful, well-respected watches. And, yes, they cause your friends and colleagues to be impressed.

But "value" means so many different things to different people. While I find the Swiss watches to be beautiful, they are tremendously expensive for what you get in terms of watch. For much less money, I can (and did) get a Seiko Spring Drive, which is more interesting (to me) than any Swiss watch, exquisite in the looks department (to me), keeps better time than any Swiss mechanical watch (and as good as any Swiss quartz watch) and has every bit of the quality and customer service of the Swiss companies.

Many folks on this forum wouldn't touch a Japanese watch, regardless of acknowledged quality, simply because it lacks the "wow" factor with friends and colleagues. In their lives, that's fine.

But none of that excuses the crass ways so many people on this forum dismiss any watch not a Swiss watch. 35 years ago, Detroit thought the Japanese cars were kind of amusing, but no threat. They were wrong. Now, the Swiss (or, at least, their proxies) dismiss the Asian watches as not worthy of notice. I have little doubt that, in 35 years, they will be singing a different tune.

In the last couple of weeks, my wife and I (for some reason) have gone on a watch-buying binge. I started it with the purchase of a Seiko (Spring Drive), despite not having worn a watch for over 35 years; I was highly intrigued by the ingenuity of the movement, and loved the looks of the watch when I went to look at it. My wife today bought two Swiss watches; after loving various Rolex and Omega watches, she ultimately chose to buy a Raymond Weil and a Rado, which together cost less than any of the Rolex or Omega watches she had liked.

And, as a bit of a lark, we have ordered five various Sea-Gull watches, which promises to be great fun. The total cost of the Sea-Gull watches? Less than $900, delivered to my door.

These Asian watches are here to stay, and they will only get better.


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

Funny, I have a Seiko Spring Drive (What my forum name originally came from) too... Unbelievably nice watch and I could write a whole page on the reasons why I love it.

Let us know what you think of your new arrivals!


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

Just a little accuracy report of my based seagull watch, ticking +2/+3 sec per day since the 14th februrary.


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## SolitarySoul (Feb 1, 2009)

Somebody's smokin' sumthin' if they think I'm reading all of this! :-d


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## tempus edax rerum (Feb 16, 2009)

Too bad you posted this in Omega, where it'd be perceived as flame bait right off the bat, without any regard to the merits of your post. It definitely is food for thought, and makes me more curious about seagull.


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## ChuckMiller (Mar 4, 2008)

Georges would you post a picture of this watch?



georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi all
> 
> As you know last week I bought a timex luxury sports man watch fitted with one of the highest grade chinese made movements, the seagull st2504.
> best regards
> ...


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## Born2bwire (Sep 28, 2008)

I bought a Seagull from their store here in Hong Kong back in October, they had just opened the store recently at the time. It seems to me that they are trying to establish themselves in a higher market, by expanding their distribution into the US and Europe and operating a high-end store on the Nathan Road strip. But from what I have heard they haven't completely stepped up on the products they are offering. The watch I purchased was less than $150 new a few months before I bought mine but they are selling it for around $230 now. The watch ran fine, about +13 seconds a day but it stopped running in December. I don't know what happened to it since it stopped in the night. It took a month for them to fix it at the store and it's run fine since I got it back but it's still consistently +10 seconds a day. Why they couldn't regulate it back I don't know now that I think about it. Personally I don't particularly care too much for their designs and I think they are overcharging for some of the movements, especially when you compare the prices to other watches that use their movements. For example, Fossil has a skeleton watch that uses the same movement as my skeleton, but it costs around $80, almost a third of what they are charging, but I really do not care for the aesthetics of it. I guess one of the drawbacks to being such a large supplier is that it's they have to compete with themselves in a way with the exception of their higher end movements like the Tourbillions.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

yes here are the pics of my watch


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Hang on Georges...

That is, without doubt or question, a Tianjin ST26 in that watch.

*The ST26 is a direct copy of the ETA 2892/2

ROFL!* (And that is literally the first time that I have ever said that on WUS.)

Now I'll be honest, over our many exchanges I have developed a real respect for your knowledge, straightness and consistency. So I really do apologise for the fact that I am just going to take the mickey mercilessly for a short while...

After all those years of continuously slagging off the 2892/2 to anyone who would listen, you have bought a watch with a *fake *2829/2 and are singing its praises. The irony is, well, ironic.

However, as you say:



> Let's not forget that the basic eta 2892-a2 cost 120$ and its refined version in higher grade version 250$. Eta is a middle of the range movement manufacture and it is nothing exceptionnal in terms of overall durability or accuracy.


quite so:








http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Seagull-ST6-Chinese-Mens-automatic-watch-movement-NEW_W0QQitemZ260379432845QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item260379432845&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

(I know, the ST 26 is twenty dollars or so more)

*:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d:-d**:-d*

Ok, I have finished now.

(phew)


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

George admits in post #9 of this thread that the ST-25 is a derivative of the ST-26 which is a clone of the ETA 2892.

He states that it is an improvement of the ST-26... Which implies it is an improvement over the 2892... I do see that the balance bridge in his pictures is a full balance bridge, which is quite different compared to a 2892 which has a half balance bridge... Yeah I know that does not mean it is better, but it is quite a "modification" if it is indeed a clone. Of course this is debatable...

Good lord knows that I am not defending George, as his Seagull is not something I desire, but I just thought I would also state the obvious... 

Anyways, I believe George gave up on me. He is happy with his movement and based on the movement alone wants to dismiss (vaguely I might add) more expensive Swiss watches. He is satisfied with his watch, but I still don't enjoy reading that he aims his watch at many more expensive watches without being more specific. I am not talking about names, but particular movements in general. Were he to say "I would rather spend $250 on my Timex with the Seagull ST-25 then over $1000 for a Tudor with an ETA 2824-2 movement"... I could live with that... But I know in my gut that he is reaching for more then just comparing his watch to other Swiss manufacturers that use base ETA movements, which is just not going to be easy... It would be nice if he just admitted that his Timex satisfies his needs instead of vaguely comparing it to more expensive Swiss watches.

P.S. I guess it is ok to clone a movement, (not as much money spent in R&D) sell it for less (for many reasons that would require many more words) and then be considered as competition against the product that it copied? That makes no sense to me, not logical sense anyways.

P.P.S. Why the dive bezel? Seems like a watch that is confused about it's identity, oh wait, we are only talking about the basis of the movement...


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

hahahhaaha :-d me buying a fake eta ?;-) That is the best joke I have heard in a while. I can only thank you for the laugh. I hope that one day if we encounter I will be able to offer you a beer. 
Coming back to watches, I bought a watch that has a much better finished and better quality movement than the eta 2892-a2 in the elaboré grade. My watch has also a flying openheart, retrograde power reserve and retrograde date indicator. I have a st2505 in my watch not a st 26, mine is a complication, the 2505 is 30,4mm of diameter and 7.4mm of height that is much bigger than the st26 and the standard 2892. Jewel count of the st2505 is 39 jewels and bph is 21600 that is different from the st26 and the 2892. The st 2505 is not your standard three hands movement, even guys with much more expensive watches always ask me about my affordable but great Timex. The accuracy is as good as any of my Omegas. 

have a great night

best regards

georges


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Glad to be of service. 

However, just as the Omega Reduced, while having the DD module stuffed on top, is still essentially powered by a 2892 so is this. Are the complications built in or modular? Can you get some high resolution shots of this 'superior' finish?

Cheers, 

Matt


A beer would be fine sometime. I suspect we would get chucked out eventually;-)


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## AIKO (Oct 27, 2008)

Maybe it is me and my ignorance but I cannot wrap my head around buying a Chinese watch. Chinese products have the perception of being inexpensive and cheap, poor construction with many products (in my mind). Maybe I am thinking fakes/replicas coming from China. Kind of like eating an American eggroll-just seems wrong.;-)


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

Cost. Value. Anyone has the ability to make a quality product if they choose to.

There are limits to what you can do and still remain affordable, there have to be cuts made somewhere to keep the cost down.

I can list some cuts (that would be fun for me) but it would all be speculation.

I end this post with a favorite saying of mine:

You get what you pay for. Or, If it is too good to be true, it is. Pick one, they are both applicable to most of our obsessions on this forum...


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

Given how inexpensive that Timex was, I just ordered one.
Got the white dial.
Nothing wrong with having a lot of fun on the cheap. Nice traveling watch I won't have to worry about.

Thanks, Georges. :-!


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> Given how inexpensive that Timex was, I just ordered one.
> Got the white dial.
> Nothing wrong with having a lot of fun on the cheap. Nice traveling watch I won't have to worry about.
> 
> Thanks, Georges. :-!


You just had to go and take the middle way!


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

M4tt said:


> Glad to be of service.
> 
> However, just as the Omega Reduced, while having the DD module stuffed on top, is still essentially powered by a 2892 so is this. Are the complications built in or modular? Can you get some high resolution shots of this 'superior' finish?
> 
> ...


 The complication are built in because the diameter of the st 26 is 30.4mm and the height of the movement is 7.4 mm that is much larger and taller that any 2892-a2 with a dd module. Jewel count is also different 39 jewels and accuracy regulating device it is a triovis design not an etachron.
I unfortunately haven't got a camera with zoom so I can't get some high resolution shots but as soon as I have on I will do it.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

I found the Elgin version!








http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-MENS-ELGIN-AUTOMATIC-OPEN-HEART-EXOTIC-WATCH-BNIB_W0QQitemZ350185239156QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Jewelery_Watches_Watches_MensWatches_GL?hash=item350185239156&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

and now the Lois Bolle version:








http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LUXURY-38J-AUTOMATIC-RETROGRADE-MULTI-FUNCTION_W0QQitemZ360143634577QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Jewelery_Watches_Watches_MensWatches_GL?hash=item360143634577&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

The improbably named but rather pretty Wohler:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WOHLER-RETROG...hash=item150190640523&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

I'm still looking for the original.


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

M4tt said:


> You just had to go and take the middle way!


Couldn't resist. Cheaper than staying home. Ships tomorrow. I'll post some shots when it comes.


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

M4tt said:


> I found the Elgin version!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Louis Bolle is not bad. Actually, this watch, no matter how and who cases it, reminds me of a Trias. Had one a few years ago that served me well for no-worries travel.


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

Here's the white-dialed version of Georges' Timex. Just arrived last night. Lost 3 seconds overnight.
Not a bad watch for the money.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

nice shots mr snak  3 sec per day is cosc accuracy for the 10th of the price of an eta based omega. Movement finish is very good, it looks like the 1120 but the bph is different. Enjoy your watch.


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## reverendkb (Dec 12, 2007)

Georges, when I first got onto WUS I found myself combing your posts, as well as Vandice's, for educational purposes. Your knowledge is vast--almost encyclopaedic :-!. That said, I must respectfully demure for personal reasons that supercede horology. 

I will not get overtly political or ethical about this, but I couldn't personally buy the watch even if the movement's accuracy rivaled my Breitling SQ or if the case and bracelet lay on my wrist as nicely as my 45mm PO. <|<|<|

Just one man talking, however.


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## watchboffin (May 24, 2008)

reverendkb said:


> but I couldn't personally buy the watch even if the movement's accuracy rivaled my Breitling SQ or if the case and bracelet lay on my wrist as nicely as my 45mm PO. <|<|<|.


And why not specifically? Is it the design or the "TIMEX" logo ? :roll:


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

Seagull has been making watch movements since 1955. That's a lot of experience.

I think politics and "ethics" (whatever that is) do play a part when it comes to perception of Chinese products, no matter how good they might be.

The bigger picture is that manufacturing has traditionally always moved to the countries that produce things the cheapest and the best. The US became that because they were cheaper than Europe, and not restricted by the guilds and taxes.

It's truly more of a global economy now. Many Swiss watches use Chinese parts. Might be a couple in that Breitling :-d


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

Three points:

1. The watch is confused. Why does it have a dive bezel???

2. There is a huge difference between good value and cheap. Most people want cheap, this is proven on all levels.

3. There has to be cuts to get the cost down to where it is on this watch. So I wonder where those cuts are? I bet it is very obvious... 

You can't compare this to a swiss watch and call it a good value. It was true a long time ago that if accuracy is the standard that watches are based on, then the Japanese quartz would have destroyed all other watch manufacturers, which almost did happen and this watch is no better then a Casio in the accuracy department. The truth is cost is what this is all about. Since the Swiss watch industry still exists, people want more then just accuracy in a watch and they don't mind paying for it. Swatch owns the majority of the luxury watch brands because it sells inexpensive watches under the Swatch name and makes a killing. Cost. Value. Cheap. Cost is the only constant. Cheap and value are subjective terms. The truth is that people don't like spending a lot of money to get what they want.

This Timex, or Elgin, or Lois Bolle, or Wohler are massed produced copies of high end watches. I am still waiting on a direct comparison to which Swiss watch this is better then, because it is not better then all of them, or a whole brand name of watches. I am very glad it is accurate, but I would rather own a Citizen or Seiko that would be even more accurate then this, so it is not about how accurate the watch is, now is it? George talks about how well finished the movement is, jewel count and complications, but that does not make it good value it only makes it known that he is happy with this watch because he has yet to compare his Timex to any other specific watch, because it will be obvious it is inexpensive for a reason, and I am still waiting to hear the answer for why it is so inexpensive. I will add some reasons:

1. Cheap labor.
2. Almost no R/D costs to create the base, since it is a ETA copy.
3. Cheap materials.
4. No Service costs, it is a throw away watch to the manufacturer.

Or am I supposed to wake up from my dream and realize the following, that the ETA movement is considerably over priced, that the Swiss manufactures that use ETA movements in their watches overprice their wares? I already know this, but their reasons are different then this watch approach. They offer warranties, provide customer service, advertising, hand work, more expensive labor, better materials and QC...

Cost. This watch wants to be cheap and affordable, and does everything it can to be so. So it begs to be asked, are other watches that George vaguely compares this too overpriced and why are they overpriced? I still feel that George has found a watch at a price he enjoys, but he needs to step up and openly state specifically what watches this is better then instead of just openly stating that this watch is competition to the Swiss watches. Yeah, we know George, so was the Japanese quartz, because they were cheap, not because they were better. I don't see a better watch, I just see a Timex that costs less.


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

mrsnak said:


>


I am going to borrow MrSnak's Image of the movement, I can immediately see that the finishing is course, I bet I can count the lines in the Geneva Stripes. The turning on the plates below are not bright at all, so they too are course, but that could be a matter of lighting, but I doubt it. I don't see anything polished.

Anways, here are some good price ideas on movements:

http://www.ofrei.com/page1119.html

This is a list of Chinese movements and their prices. How do the Chinese keep their prices so low? So many have finishing and complications too...

Same list but for ETA movements:

http://www.ofrei.com/page_183.html

ETA can be cheap too, or really expensive. This list leaves out many grades of the different movements.

I am still trying to find a ETA 2892 Elabore grade movement to compare MrSnak's movement picture above to, since this is the only movement George has directly compared his Seagull Timex too.

Here is one I attached, it is from a Tag. Hmmm, does not look too nice to me too. I could stand to discuss that this Timex might be a good value compared to a Tag Calibre 7. I did say discuss, I can see where the discussion about being chronometer certified and resale value might win out, unless that is not important to the owner...

Again, are the Chinese better? To have this discussion we have to have points to discuss what is better. Accuracy is not enough, because most quartz watches are better, but it is a good benchmark. Finish? Then we can compare on grades. Complications? I don't think so... Materials?

This watch needs to be aimed at another specific watch, it cannot be stated that Seagull and this watch are better then a $3000 Swiss watch. Which $3000 dollar watch are we talking about?


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

Three points:

1. The watch is confused. Why does it have a dive bezel???

It's rated for water. Purely a subjective comment.

2. There is a huge difference between good value and cheap. Most people want cheap, this is proven on all levels.

So why can't a good value be inexpensive? Timex warranties the watch. 
I don't require "cheap". The bulk of my collection is certainly not that.
What I do like is fun without pretense.
Knew this watch would raise some ire... :-d

3. There has to be cuts to get the cost down to where it is on this watch. So I wonder where those cuts are? I bet it is very obvious...

Movement seems fine. Company has the experience. Fit and finish are nice. Not compared to my Rolex or Omega, but quite decent for the price. If this watch dies in 5 years, I will have gotten 5 years of fun out of it.

You can't compare this to a swiss watch and call it a good value. It was true a long time ago that if accuracy is the standard that watches are based on, then the Japanese quartz would have destroyed all other watch manufacturers, which almost did happen and this watch is no better then a Casio in the accuracy department. The truth is cost is what this is all about. Since the Swiss watch industry still exists, people want more then just accuracy in a watch and they don't mind paying for it. Swatch owns the majority of the luxury watch brands because it sells inexpensive watches under the Swatch name and makes a killing. Cost. Value. Cheap. Cost is the only constant. Cheap and value are subjective terms. The truth is that people don't like spending a lot of money to get what they want.

You still miss the point. This is an excellent time-keeping automatic.
I didn't buy this for accuracy. Bought it because it was fun and knew it would give me more than a few days of amusement. Why not?
I also will spend a whole lot more for a watch that may not keep as good of time.

This Timex, or Elgin, or Lois Bolle, or Wohler are massed produced copies of high end watches. I am still waiting on a direct comparison to which Swiss watch this is better then, because it is not better then all of them, or a whole brand name of watches. I am very glad it is accurate, but I would rather own a Citizen or Seiko that would be even more accurate then this, so it is not about how accurate the watch is, now is it? George talks about how well finished the movement is, jewel count and complications, but that does not make it good value it only makes it known that he is happy with this watch because he has yet to compare his Timex to any other specific watch, because it will be obvious it is inexpensive for a reason, and I am still waiting to hear the answer for why it is so inexpensive. I will add some reasons:

1. Cheap labor.
2. Almost no R/D costs to create the base, since it is a ETA copy.
3. Cheap materials.
4. No Service costs, it is a throw away watch to the manufacturer.

Or am I supposed to wake up from my dream and realize the following, that the ETA movement is considerably over priced, that the Swiss manufactures that use ETA movements in their watches overprice their wares? I already know this, but their reasons are different then this watch approach. They offer warranties, provide customer service, advertising, hand work, more expensive labor, better materials and QC...

Cost. This watch wants to be cheap and affordable, and does everything it can to be so. So it begs to be asked, are other watches that George vaguely compares this too overpriced and why are they overpriced? I still feel that George has found a watch at a price he enjoys, but he needs to step up and openly state specifically what watches this is better then instead of just openly stating that this watch is competition to the Swiss watches. Yeah, we know George, so was the Japanese quartz, because they were cheap, not because they were better. I don't see a better watch, I just see a Timex that costs less.[/QUOTE]

I don't see a better watch either. I see something fun and different at a low price point.
Notice that I've never said that more expensive watches are overpriced. I'm the guy currently saving for a Patek. :-d


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

SpringDriven said:


> I am going to borrow MrSnak's Image of the movement, I can immediately see that the finishing is course, I bet I can count the lines in the Geneva Stripes. The turning on the plates below are not bright at all, so they too are course, but that could be a matter of lighting, but I doubt it. I don't see anything polished.


Yes, but who cares? This watch costs next to nothing.
I'll post some better pix for your viewing pleasure, though


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

mrsnak said:


> Three points:
> 
> 1. The watch is confused. Why does it have a dive bezel???
> 
> ...


I don't see a better watch either. I see something fun and different at a low price point.
Notice that I've never said that more expensive watches are overpriced. I'm the guy currently saving for a Patek. :-d[/QUOTE]

Thanks MrSnak, your answers are rational and the norm that I expect most people to have and I do not think you need to defend your purchase on my comments. George says this is a better watch then a $3000 dollar watch, but does not provide any direct comparisons. It is what it is, and you have clearly stated as such. George does not reflect the same in his statements, as his are direct challenges to others. You and I and many other people will gladly spend more money elsewhere, but why is the answer and George wants us to believe we are wasting that money from what I read of his statements.

P.S. Cheap and inexpensive are meant to be the same, just one is seen as a negative. So it can be inexpensive and or cheap.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

mrsnak said:


> Three points:
> 
> 1. The watch is confused. Why does it have a dive bezel???
> 
> ...


Ok I will have to reply.
1) agreed 
2) We agree here
3) Compared to a Breitling based 2892-a2, Girard Perregaux based 2892-a2 or an Omega 1109 or 1120, the 26 and the st 25-05 still stand the comparisons in terms of finish, accuracy wise they are good too. Of course the st 25-05 and the st26 are not comparable to a 2500 but you have to recognize that the movement has quite a lot of merits. The st 2505 isn't in the same field than a coaxial 2500 or 3135. 
When swatch will stop to supply movements to non swatch group firms in 2010 what will the firms in question become? Perhaps go bankrupt or either outsource their parents as does zodiac who uses chinese movements. Paying +3000$ for a watch that has the very same movements than others with zero technical improvements just aside the name of the firm engraved of the rotor is pure crookery. The 7750, the 2824 and the 2892 are seen everywhere, the handwork done by the majority of firms is in the majority aesthetical and not technical. Only two firms know how to modify their eta based movements: IWC and OMEGA. Concerning customer service and quality control, you can get lemons and awful quality of basic repairs as it was the case with Omega in Lancaster or Rolex Beverly Hills of course ymmv. Aside that many people just buy marketing but marketing is not everything.
Does a Breitling, a Cartier, a Panerai Luminor, a Longines, an Eterna, an Alain Silberstein, an Edox, an Ulysse Nardin or a Cuervo y Sobrinos watch justify a +2000$ for a watch offering just an engraved eta 2892-a2?

just my two modest cents

best regards and have a great easter/passover holiday

georges


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## hpark21 (Oct 8, 2007)

georges zaslavsky said:


> 3) From who did you horror stories? From people owning Seagulls? Were those epray purchased watches or new in box bought watches? I am all ears to hear these horror stories. I have heard more horror stories since 2003 from Omega USA at the time in was Lancaster as well as in Seacaucus than for what concerns Seagull. I am not also mentionning the despicable policy of Rolex service centres in USA especially the one in New York and the other one in Bevrly Hills with a more than crappy work on vinatge Rolex and poor regulating on modern Rolex watches.


I do not know about other things but hear this one.

I have Seagull M182SK skeleton. There is a ding on the case and some marks on the crystal.

I got it from USSeagull.com

I asked Kevin at USSeagull:
Can you sell me the case with crystal on it and I will perform the transfer. I am willing to pay $50 or so that the case will cost.

He tells me:
Sorry, I can not get those parts, ship the watch to me and pay for return shipping + $60 (for his shipping to and from factory) + labor + part cost to get it fixed if you wish.

Now, what is wrong here when the US AD can not get ANY parts from the factory? Seagull is basically making a throw away watch by not having any facility to fix the watch here in this country. So, I have $189 watch which will as soon as warranty is over will cost over $100 + whatever part/labor charge to get it fixed. Also, I can not just bring it over to my watch maker as he can not get parts from Seagull (apparently even AD can not get the parts from the factory)


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## hpark21 (Oct 8, 2007)

georges zaslavsky said:


> the swiss watch costs 30 times more and
> the price is not always justified.


When it comes to highend luxury things, it is VERY difficult to get what you pay in direct proportion.

Do you feel that:
Handbag that cost $25 and a LV or Coach bag that costs $600.

Do you think one gets 25x value out of that?

I had a talk with someone at Fatwallet one time.

I suggested that buying a Rolex is not too bad because:
A Rolex that you buy for $2000 in 1994 can be sold today for about the same price. So, you enjoy it for 15 years and did not loose anything.

If you have to buy a $100 watch every 3 years, you spent $500.

Now, technically, at decent interest rate, you lost $1500 in 15 years in interest that you may earn and that was his argument, I LOST $1500.

Now, I also argued, take ANYONE on the street and tell them that they can LEASE a Genuine Rolex for $15/ mo. How many people will take up on it? I would think quite a few. In 15 years, $15/ mo will be enough to cover the service cost + interest and at the end, you can sell the watch and recoup the initial investment and you enjoyed the watch for $15/mo. Not bad, no?
Or late night informercial quite frequently say for 50cents/day, you can enjoy the Genuine Rolex Watch that you can Proudly wear. :-!


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

hpark21 said:


> I do not know about other things but hear this one.
> 
> I have Seagull M182SK skeleton. There is a ding on the case and some marks on the crystal.
> 
> ...


But it's a very inexpensive watch!!! Ever try getting a Casio repaired?
In my case, Timex holds the warranty. Mine will get fixed or replaced during the warranty period (1 year parts & labor). 
Hard to say what their arrangement is with them after that. The longevity of availability of parts after the initial launch is most likely determined by the popularity. 
The movements are readily available.


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## hpark21 (Oct 8, 2007)

mrsnak said:


> But it's a very inexpensive watch!!! Ever try getting a Casio repaired?
> In my case, Timex holds the warranty. Mine will get fixed or replaced during the warranty period (1 year parts & labor).
> Hard to say what their arrangement is with them after that. The longevity of availability of parts after the initial launch is most likely determined by the popularity.
> The movements are readily available.


Crystal and case is rarely if EVER warrantied.

If you have deep scratch on your case which can not be buffed out, or if you have ding on your crystal, then that is it for the watch.

Even if I wanted to pay (to me) a reasonable price for the case and crystal, I can not buy it for my seagull.


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

hpark21 said:


> Crystal and case is rarely if EVER warrantied.
> 
> If you have deep scratch on your case which can not be buffed out, or if you have ding on your crystal, then that is it for the watch.
> 
> Even if I wanted to pay (to me) a reasonable price for the case and crystal, I can not buy it for my seagull.


I once tried to get a Casio G-Shock's 5 year old case replaced. They didn't have the parts, so not available at any price.


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## mrsnak (Mar 17, 2007)

hpark21 said:


> Crystal and case is rarely if EVER warrantied.


On any watch.


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## Fatpants (Sep 6, 2007)

Is that all Seiko movements, Georges? If so, you need to look again at Seiko's movement range (Grand Seiko's, 8L35, Credor movements, Spring Drive, Anata range) before making such a statement. If we're talking 6R, 7S and below then maybe, but not those mentioned above, not by a long shot.


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## SpringDriven (Sep 7, 2007)

Bah, I missed the bus...


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## reverendkb (Dec 12, 2007)

watchboffin said:


> And why not specifically? Is it the design or the "TIMEX" logo ? :roll:


I thought my reply was, frankly, less than obtuse. Horology is secondary here, to me. It has NOTHING to do with design or logo. This is not a political forum so I tried to soft-pedal. So maybe I'll get flagged--I couldn't buy the watch because of the PRoC's labor and human rights policies. Period. "People's Republic"? Please.

As for all this "global economy" dialogue and swipes at my Breitling, I know all that, too. I wish "Swiss Made" really meant that, but it doesn't. But if given the choice I'll take something that's 50% Swiss, or German, or Italian, or USA made etc.

I don't fault Georges for buying the watch. It's his money. The movement seems accurate (so far), and the design is okay, albeit a bit busy for me. All I'm saying is that I couldn't do it for personal reasons. Anyone else can do what he or she wishes to do.


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## watchboffin (May 24, 2008)

reverendkb said:


> I thought my reply was, frankly, less than obtuse. Horology is secondary here, to me. It has NOTHING to do with design or logo. This is not a political forum so I tried to soft-pedal. So maybe I'll get flagged--I couldn't buy the watch because of the PRoC's labor and human rights policies. Period. "People's Republic"? Please.
> 
> As for all this "global economy" dialogue and swipes at my Breitling, I know all that, too. I wish "Swiss Made" really meant that, but it doesn't. But if given the choice I'll take something that's 50% Swiss, or German, or Italian, or USA made etc.


I understand your sentiments. But if you stopped buying everything possible from China you would have a very empty house minus the dry wall as well in some places(but thankfully without a stench!)

The Swiss don't have a squeaky clean political history either. But I hear where you're coming from.

Good luck with your Breitling.


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## reverendkb (Dec 12, 2007)

watchboffin said:


> I understand your sentiments. But if you stopped buying everything possible from China you would have a very empty house minus the dry wall as well in some places(but thankfully without a stench!)
> 
> The Swiss don't have a squeaky clean political history either. But I hear where you're coming from.
> 
> Good luck with your Breitling.


Thanks for the gentlemanly reply. I wish a "transparency in manufacturing" international law would go into effect. I won't hold my breath.

I read somewhere that Rolex and Omega were/are lobbying to get the "Swiss Made" law upgraded to reflect the parts content better. If that is so, I imagine those two mid-tier brands have little to hide. I might be wrong.


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## Quartzian (Apr 29, 2015)

georges zaslavsky said:


> SpringDriven said:
> 
> 
> > You have answered many of my questions, by your answers. They tell me the following:
> ...


Respect to George! A true watch guru!


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## T. Wong (Apr 5, 2006)

No one seen a Seagull? Well, here is their 55th anniversary bought some years ago...for $180. It has the small ST6 movement but quite accurate.
I have kept this one for its beautiful dial...
rose gold bezel rim good by blingmeister, on Flickr


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## Bucks (Mar 7, 2016)

I bought the Seagull moonphase M308S and just can't believe the accuracy and quality. Saphire crystal front and back. It's accuracy differs from week to week but it is ALWAYS within 10 seconds fast by the end of the week. Most often it's six seconds fast over a week. I can't actually remember the last time I set it. Also, you don't need to wear it for long to be fully wound. The only fault is it doesn't seem to hold 40 hours power reserve when fully wound but I over look that as I wear it every day. Awesome watch. I won't be buying a European mechanical. I have the real deal in a beautiful Seagull, AND at a decent price!


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## KWoodco (Apr 14, 2018)

SpringDriven said:


> 1. Will it become widely recognized as collectible?
> 
> 2. Will it's value hold or diminish over time?
> 
> ...


Interesting Point as for Investment but if China can produce a Quality Timepiece for little money than go for it.I too am a Fan of Omega and compare it to a Rolex in craftmanship and longevity but as for Parts it getting very difficult,for instance a 1408 Quartz Omega has a Chrono Type Crown which sets the time by pushing in the Center,its not marked with an Omega Logo quite generic but at $48.00 and up Wholesale by a third party is quite ridiculous as I know Omega didnt manufacture it.The Swatch group is putting us,the Watchmaker out of business slowly with parts unavail. to the Public.I stockpile Swiss Parts over the years so have no problem,especialy the Workhorse 2824 and 2824-2 as well as 2836 etc,one forgets that Branded Watches with these Movements only design the Case and Dials from Croton to Raymond Weil,many Invistas use ETA's and the used prices can skyrocket and its a great watch for the price New talking about Pro Diver and Grand Diver with NH35A Automatics which are Japans Seiko 24 Jewel Automatics,a G without the Guilt,Brass but a workhorse,Seiko Cal.9S86 37 Jewel (Higher Jewels basically arent better than 24)Movement found in the Grand Seiko bring the $ up so much thats its better to buy Swiss,Ive seen them run $3000.00 and Up for a Seiko?Thats crazy,anyway,i give alot of credit to China for low prices Seagull Movements that most can afford and parts available and Yes,Omega is my #2 Favorite owning over 75 Constellations,Seamasters,Dynamic's etc,Im a 36 yr Watchmaker.


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## Deli (Jul 19, 2014)

That is quite hard to decipher for us.


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## drunken monkey (Jun 22, 2011)

i) zombie
ii) 50centparty(?)


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

KWoodCo - a bit less capitalization would make your post more readable.

FYI: https://www.scribendi.com/advice/capitalization.en.html


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## James_ (Sep 5, 2011)

Than*


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