# SEAGULL 1963 Air Force Chronograph (re-issue)



## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

I would like to warmly thank Markus aka "cnmark" for this great/fast/friendly transaction and very nice watch he sent me.

This little chronograph is a real beauty, is very pleasent to wear and the quality of the watch is good for a very fair price!

Enough words...


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2007)

Thanks for sharing these excellent shots :-!:-!:-!:-!:-!


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## gigfy (Apr 13, 2007)

Very Nice! 

I have to keep asking myself, 'Why don't I have one of those by now?' 
And I don't really have an anwser.

Cheers, 
gigfy


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## achu (Sep 5, 2007)

is this brand new? How do I get one of these? How much?


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

Awesome Pictures :-!



achu said:


> is this brand new? How do I get one of these? How much?


I also bought one from Markus. They are brand New $195 plus shipping. ST-19 Movement. Follow the link for info:
http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/SalesForum/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=79000

HTH

P.S. I haven't seen mine yet it's a Christmas present. I can't wait

Chris


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

OMG, where did you get these background photos? cool....:-!

and you take very good quality pictures, but can you take some pictures of back of the watch? I heard the ST19 is very beautiful back view of 4 colors, white steel, blue screws, golden gear and red ruby bearing. :-d


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

particleman said:


> Awesome Pictures :-!
> 
> I also bought one from Markus. They are brand New $195 plus shipping. ST-19 Movement. Follow the link for info:
> http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/SalesForum/webbbs_config.cgi?noframes;read=79000
> ...


http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=158

:roll:
The cheapest sea-gull ST19 watch is this one, M192S, it is listed 4800RMB, that is $US640. Other ST19, such as M200S

http://www.seagullwatch.com/cn/product_detail.asp?productid=160

It is listed 5600RMB, or US$750.

why?


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi guys!

For more detailed pictures and how to order from Markus just follow the link ;-) :

http://www.pmwf.com/cgi-bin/SalesForum/webbbs_config.cgi?read=79000

For a brief history of the brand, Seagull:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=96865

and another happy Markus customer:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=95145


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## ranocean (Nov 25, 2007)

I like it so much. It is limited edition.


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## nikarlo (Aug 26, 2007)

Very good


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## tigrotto (Oct 7, 2007)

good choice msaint,
and great photos; as a matter of fact i saved a few 
in my personal album.
i'm very pleased of the little chinese, nice and accurate.
ciao


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

Can cnmark tell us where did you get these watches?

The watch has a hallow star which is different than normal Sea-gull 1963, and without a series number. The minute hand is inside the circle, but what I saw was outside.

Most important, the price of the watch is only 30% of the offical price listed on the seagull website of similar watch with stop watch function.

Definately these watches are not made in Tianjin by Seagull. Even the Hongkong Seagull should not be so cheap.


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

I posted these photos and the selling website to a very famous watch forum in China. hopefully somebody from Tianjin Seagull could confirm if it is genuin seagull or fake seagull.

Anyway it should be made in China too.


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

sphinx88 said:


> I posted these photos and the selling website to a very famous watch forum in China. hopefully somebody from Tianjin Seagull could confirm if it is genuin seagull or fake seagull.
> 
> Anyway it should be made in China too.


They are genuine. As I Understand it Seagull has two prices. One for domestic & one for export. Believe it or not Seagull's are more expensive In China. China puts a high tariff on Swiss watches. They also want these Swiss watches to sell so they artificially inflate the price of domestic brands. This was discussed but I can't find the thread.
HTH


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## STELLA (Aug 7, 2006)

Very very Nice! I also bought one from Markus.

Giuseppe


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

particleman said:


> They are genuine. As I Understand it Seagull has two prices. One for domestic & one for export. Believe it or not Seagull's are more expensive In China. China puts a high tariff on Swiss watches. They also want these Swiss watches to sell so they artificially inflate the price of domestic brands. This was discussed but I can't find the thread.
> HTH


hi particleman, I asked someone knows Seaguall, the price is only 30% of the official price, that is not possible for both Tianjin Seagull and Hongkong Seagull, for domeistic or for exporting. The most possible is the watches are made by another factory located in Canton or Shenzhen. There is a lawsuit ongoing for this issue.

But, from the looking the watch is as good as seagull, even better! If they can make watches with quality same as the Seagull watch, (anyway the movenment is the same)we don't need to care about if this is true seagull or not. :-d


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## cnmark (Jul 30, 2006)

Well, I was reluctant to put this here (has some Seagull internals), but maybe some clarification is needed. That's a long post, take your time to read (and enjoy).

Some Mainland Chinese do have difficulties understanding the dual system of Seagull's distribution (local: retail only / international: wholesale only) via 2 channels. And the fact that Seagull is a mass producer (;-) "a whore" if you all excuse my language), doing about everything a customer wants.

One nice example of a Seagull customer is www.watch.ag in Germany. See these two watches:
http://www.watch.ag/de/shop_detail_gottlieb_371.html
(A special series of 1963 watches made with display back)
http://www.watch.ag/de/shop_detail_gottlieb_311.html
(A Seagull 0440 with German branding)
Mike Stuffler did a post somewhere here in the Chinese Watches Forum - posting some "German" watches produced by Seagull. Most of Seagull's international customers do not like the "Seagull" name on their watches - they want their own name on the watches. Very few international customers actually buy the watches with "Seagull" branding.

Seagull's distribution structure:

On one side there is the local, Mainland Chinese, retail only distribution via the motherhouse in Tianjin, by mail order mainly. Tremendous prices, kept artificially high. The prices quoted by sphinx88 are correct at roughly the USD 700 equivalent for a chronograph. If you order not only 1, but 2 watches you have a chance of ~30% discount.

On the other side there is the international distribution via Hong Kong. Called Tsinlien Seagull Group. No retail sales at all. Wholesale only. If you order enough watches (they do not sell you just 1 or 2 watches) you can get a wholesale price that's in the range of 20% suggested retail price, if you order really many watches, the wholesale price drops even further. The MSRP is: "_wholesale price x 10_" to keep the price high (but some customers do not follow this recommendation). The customer is free to set his own price. I have seen Seagull produced watches priced in the range from "_wholesale price x 25_" and as low as "_wholesale price x 2_".
If you order enough, Seagull just makes the watches for you - to your specifications (dial printing / case back engraving). Production lead time is 45 to 90 days, depending on model. And it's correct, the export production is done in Seagull's Shenzhen plant, my 1963 all were from there.

Comment: Because of the price difference many Mainland Chinese try to order small batches of 10 pieces or so from Hong Kong at wholesale prices, but Hong Kong is not allowed to sell into Mainland China. I am also not allowed to sell into Mainland China, that's part of my contractual agreement with Seagull. Makes some Mainland Chinese angry at me - I am living in China but can not sell to Chinese.
Tianjin went so far and has stated to some Mainland Chinese retail customers that Hong Kong is not part of the Seagull Group. This is not true - Tsinlien Seagull in Hong Kong is the international representative of the entire Group.

The Group structure of Seagull is to my knowledge as follows:

Top level is Tianjin Watch (Group) Company Ltd, 天津手表（集团）有限公司 in Tianjin, basically "The Owner", managing all assets, directly responsible for Chinese local sales and local market production in Tianjin (Complete non-chronograph watches and movements for the local market). Research and Development together with Seagull Hong Kong (for international input), R&D facilities are in in Tianjin and (smaller) Shenzhen. Movement production also outsourced to Yantai Watch Company (local market, as movement source for other Chinese watch manufacturers only - "cheap low quality stuff" according to Seagull Hong Kong's management).

Already next, nearly parallel, within the Seagull Group structure is Seagull Hong Kong (Tsinlien Seagull Group), managing all international sales, international representation of Seagull (Basel Fair, Hong Kong Watch Fair). Directly managing the export sales and the production in the Shenzhen plant. Seagull Hong Kong has lots of independence within the Group - they are not really "managed by" Tianjin, better wording is "reporting to" Tianjin. The watch model lineup offered by Hong Kong is not identical to the lineup of Tianjin. You can see the different model lineups by checking the Chinese Watch Industry links in the sticky threads above.
From a financial point of view Tsinlien in Hong Kong is much more important within the Group than Tianjin. The Seagull Group revenues come mostly from supplying movements to international watch brands - Timex is one brand to mention. These contacts and contracts are all done via Hong Kong.

Current main production plants for the Group are Tianjin and Shenzhen. Guangzhou - closed. Yantai is to my knowledge not (or only partially) owned by the Seagull Group but working for them. Many parts of the entire production are actually outsourced: Cases, bands, crystals. Only assembly of watches and movement production is done in-house (apart from the cheap movements from Yantai...). 
All chronographs - to my knowledge including those sold on the Mainland market - come from the Shenzhen plant now. High End watches: The tourbillons are made in Tianjin (a few in Shenzhen, but more production shall move to there, for ease of quality control), the repeaters are currently only made in Tianjin.

Finally a little more about the "1963":

In the Chinese Mainland the "1963" is currently sold as "Limited Edition" with serial numbers on the case back. An attempt to keep prices high in the Mainland by doing a "Limited Edition", but it might actually backfire to Seagull Tianjin. I can not imagine the Mainland Chinese buyers not getting angry when they learn that the very same watch is available for much lower prices elsewhere - only with a different case back.

To my knowledge totally over 3000 of the "1963" watches have already been produced, first in 3 production runs of 300 pieces each from January to June 2006. Later the watch went "hot" on the market, is not done anymore as "current production", only as "production on order".

Other (special) production runs I do know of are: The Mainland Chinese "Limited Edition" of 1700 pieces (June to August), an order of 200 or 300 pieces for the above mentioned German watch store (with the display back) in August/September, 500 pieces with Russian(!) writing on the case back and face for a Russian customer in August and September and my order of only a mere 100 in September/October. The fact that I am one of the smaller customers always causes my orders to be processed last...

So: my current Seagull 1963 stock are not the Mainland Chinese "Limited Edition" watches - just a small run done for me. Apart from the missing serial number, some other minor differences to the Mainland Chinese limited edition might exist, e.g. on the dial (different manufacturing run). The "Red Star" was a surprise to me as well. As I am basically sold out I will order more "1963" in this week - due to the high demand 200 pieces this time.

Cheers, thanks for reading and understanding,

Markus


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

cnmark said:


> One nice example of a Seagull customer is www.watch.ag in Germany. See these two watches:
> http://www.watch.ag/de/shop_detail_gottlieb_371.html
> (A special series of 1963 watches made with display back)












Thanks Markus :-!
I like the red on the inside of the display back. Is it just me or do all guys like red?
I dont like the website engraved in the back.
Cheers


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## SlaveToTheTimePiece (Nov 11, 2007)

That is on cool watch! But is it practical? How often must it be wound? Is it water resistant enough to hit the water parks in? Also how long is the lead time to get the watch?


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

Thank you very much for your post Cnmark.
I think seagull really messed up their products and sales channel.
:-!
Tianjin Seagull actually publicly stated that they do not acknowlege the 1963 without a series number and certificate. Furthermone, they do not provide service to these 1963. Anyway, it can be serviced anywhere.:-d


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

SlaveToTheTimePiece said:


> That is on cool watch! But is it practical? How often must it be wound? Is it water resistant enough to hit the water parks in? Also how long is the lead time to get the watch?


Of course it is very practical. I've seen the crown is big in diameter, to me it means easy to be wound by hand. Because a big diameter reduces torque.

The watch was made for military use, that is another guarranty of its practical, reliable and accurate, water proof. I think you need to wind it once per 24 hours, in order to maintein its stable accuacy.|>


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## Gunscrossed (Feb 10, 2006)

Wow, fantastic photos!

Thank for posting


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## Paulo (Feb 14, 2006)

Stunning photos, thank you! :-!


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

if it has a see thru back, it will be a perfect one! consider this beautiful movement with 4 colors.:rodekaart


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## siyexcalibur (Aug 2, 2007)

Actually there is one variation seagull 0437 with a display back and sapphire crystals front and back
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=324345#poststop


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## watsonhsu (Nov 28, 2007)

Post a inside picture


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## watchNoob (Dec 3, 2007)

cnmark said:


> The Seagull Group revenues come mostly from supplying movements to international watch brands - Timex is one brand to mention. These contacts and contracts are all done via Hong Kong.


Given this information, I was just curious if the whole Sea-Gull conglomeration produces quartz and/or digital modules that you find in Timex and other low-end brands. The Japanese watch companies seem to put out a very broad range from sub-$10 LCD modules to high-end movements but in China it seems a lot more fragmented. :think:


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## andytyc (Feb 6, 2007)

Lovley! I've got one of the 1963 re-ssues as well from Markhus. It's an earlier one without the red filling in the star(which I prefer). The size, bulid and function of these watches are amazing for the price. The only problem I had was finding the right strap to go with it! It's a bit between a military watch and a dress watch because of the polished case, fine thin blue steel hands and champagne dial. I didn't like the olive Nato that came with it, tried a Brown aviator strap that looked too robust for the fine features. Hence never wore the watch much but at the same time couldn't bring myself to selling it. But i've just got a lovely dark brown Hirsch leather strap on it and it looks superb. I've worn it much the whole week!


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

andytyc said:


> i've just got a lovely dark brown Hirsch leather strap on it and it looks superb. I've worn it much the whole week!


Picture please


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

New bracelet to start 2008. I switched to a thin and nice 18mm Bund b-)


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## CCCP (Jul 1, 2006)

Nice combo! :-!


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## SiebSp (Nov 1, 2006)

andytyc said:


> ....The only problem I had was finding the right strap to go with it! It's a bit between a military watch and a dress watch because of the polished case, fine thin blue steel hands and champagne dial. I didn't like the olive Nato that came with it....


I've bought a (navy) blue and a light beige canvas strap for this watch. (Sorry no pics, the straps can be seen at http://www.timefactors.com/tfstrap.htm).
The blue strap colours nicely with the blue of the hands, and the beige one with the dial and the gold of the indexes.


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## Paulo (Feb 14, 2006)

A possibily is something similar to the Archimede strap, which I've put on this one (but it's 20mm).


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## quoll (Feb 10, 2006)

I have mine (also from Markus) on canvas.


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

New pics of this little Chinese on a bund! ;-)




























note the hand stiched bund, made only by female soldiers under the rain! :-d


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## sphinx88 (Jul 31, 2007)

the Chinese people in those pictures look healthier than those in hollywood film.


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## Aarifin (Jan 23, 2008)

hi there Msaint.

Just wanted to let you know that the gorgeous 1963 made stunning by your photographic skills. Mind to share the equipment used and setting. Me too have downloaded the photos into my library if you do not mind.

Nice work there and nice watch too.:-!

And yes i have one too!

[/quote]


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

Hello Aarifin and thank you very much for you comments.
I am actually using the great Lumix DMC6LX2. It has Leica lenses and is perfect for macro shooting.
The other element is sun light, I only shoot with natural light.


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## Aarifin (Jan 23, 2008)

wow! It's true like what people say.. it's the photographer, and not the camera. Thanks for sharing!:-!


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## lauvergnat (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi all,

Nice to see all these pictures of this watch. I already knew how MSaint is talented, but these ones are really amazing.

I am a new french member, follow the forum since few weeks, and have ordered to Markus a 0437 model of Seagull. Not that the 1963 is out of stock for a while, but just because I prefer the 0437 model.:-d

I saw the picture from Paulo with an Archimede strap, and found it very suitable for this watch. I wonder about the size of the strap regarding the lug width (20mm --> 18mm) 
How do you make a larger strap fit the watch?

Thank you for your help,

lauvergnat.


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## jakisbck (Feb 13, 2006)

Some people shave it down and then others just squeeze it a bit to make it fit. It all depends on the strap .



lauvergnat said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Nice to see all these pictures of this watch. I already knew how MSaint is talented, but these ones are really amazing.
> 
> ...


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## lauvergnat (Jan 24, 2008)

Hi jakisbck,

Thanks for your reply. The squeezing method seems interesting cause you don't have to change the strap irreparably. 
I guess you use a crowbar for this operation...

Thanks,

lauvergnat


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## Quarks (Sep 11, 2006)

Wow. This deserves a bump.


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## saigonblack (May 1, 2008)

Damn this one made me see stars! I so want one!

Sorry for my silly questions as Im new to Chinese movements, but the one with the open see-through back is in limited edition and not available anymore right? cnmark only carries the re-run of the closed back?

The see through looks absolutely stunning!


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Last time I asked CNmark is out of all of them - I think that he will get them in again at some point in the future. Actually, I need to apologise: if Markus reads this; he sent me a lovely long message telling me all about the '63. Unfortunately I was deeply tied up with work and never replied. This just reminded me and it really is far too late to get back.


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## saigonblack (May 1, 2008)

M4tt said:


> Last time I asked CNmark is out of all of them - I think that he will get them in again at some point in the future. Actually, I need to apologise: if Markus reads this; he sent me a lovely long message telling me all about the '63. Unfortunately I was deeply tied up with work and never replied. This just reminded me and it really is far too late to get back.


I just got a reply from him as well on this. It's sold out but stocks are coming in. Am on the waiting list now as well. :-!


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## dbluefish (Apr 4, 2007)

I am on the list also and it will be my only Chinese watch through and through. I think it looks great.

paul


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## LEF (Sep 30, 2007)

Hi MSAINT, very beautiful pictures as usually.
Thanks for having given me desire again to take pictures and made us know this beautiful watch.
Bernard


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

LEF said:


> Hi MSAINT, very beautiful pictures as usually.
> Thanks for having given me desire again to take pictures and made us know this beautiful watch.
> Bernard


Thank you very much for your nice comments LEF, I just need to understand how to post large but light images without killing the quality ;-)

I hope to see your picture very soon. :-!


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## LEF (Sep 30, 2007)

I need it too. ;-)

That's done, there:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1001098#post1001098


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

LEF said:


> I need it too. ;-)
> 
> That's done, there:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?p=1001098#post1001098


Mais quel trou du luc celui là! :-d

Did not recognized your name dear ol' friend! ;-)


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## LEF (Sep 30, 2007)

Explain "_trou du luc"_ please.;-)

I'm here "_incognito_" you know.

It's nice to meet you here.


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## frogonwheels (Jun 13, 2007)

LEF said:


> Explain "_trou du luc"_ please.;-)
> 
> I'm here "_incognito_" you know.
> 
> It's nice to meet you here.


Hey oui, ca veut dire quoi " trou du luc " ?
Tu veux quand meme pas dire " trou du ...... " ?
Salut,


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## MSAINT (Mar 29, 2006)

Si, si Thierry c'est bien ça! Mais Bernard sait très bien ce que cela veut dire, je te rassure!


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## mwynn2 (Jun 11, 2008)

Hi all! I have been reading the forums for months now and I finally thought I would jump in!!!

I have been looking to get my hands on this watch myself. Thanks for the contact. I have tried sending emails to Tsinlien Sea Gull Co directly with no luck. :-( I wish I could get this watch with the back display. I really like the blue hands and red second hand. Anyone seen this combination? The only display back I saw had black hands and I think it was model 0437? There was another model as well but I do not remember the model number.Well I hope he contacts me cause I would really like to add this to my collection.


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

mwynn2 said:


> I wish I could get this watch with the back display. I really like the blue hands and red second hand. Anyone seen this combination?


Welcome to the forum :-!. You can get this watch with a display back. See my post & quoted link in this thread from November 27th.
Cheers


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## mwynn2 (Jun 11, 2008)

particleman said:


> Welcome to the forum :-!. You can get this watch with a display back. See my post & quoted link in this thread from November 27th.
> Cheers


Thanks!! I did see this link and emailed him about a week ago. He must be slammed. I have not gotten a reply as of today. I think it was this thread stating he is still in back order and had ordered like 100 more making it a total of 300? I think? I also saw on this link it was not the back display. I did find a back display with the blue hands and red colored in star on this thread posted by Markus, but it was a German company. 
http://www.watch.ag/de/shop_detail_gottlieb_371.html%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG
I did the conversion from Euros to American dollars and they wanted roughly $600 for it. I think I'll stick with what Markus has instead of paying that!:roll:

I really enjoy all the pics you guys take. I will play around and post some as well. I do not have a real impressive collection of watches so we will see how they turn out!!;-)


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## particleman (Nov 1, 2006)

mwynn2 said:


> I do not have a real impressive collection of watches so we will see how they turn out!!;-)


Give It time :-d


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