# Doxa homages that go a little too far



## Thomas Miko (Oct 25, 2011)

Hi
I haven't been here in a long time. Yesterday The Facebook had an ad for a brand called Seestern (German for sea star i.e. starfish) and the ad showed a watch that looked very much like a 1960s Seiko diver. Out of curiosity I clicked, and discovered a whole set of 100% imitation Doxa 300T type watches in the same dial colors as the originals. I am not recommending these watches at all. The no-decompression numbers on the outer bezel looked like I could lick them off (but then again, that's also my complaint about my real Doxa 600T). Isn't this level of "homageness" (homageity?) illegal i.e. a copyright infringement???


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## BobMartian (Sep 23, 2011)

Ask Steinhart or Squale


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## Pongster (Jan 7, 2017)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery


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## Watchout63 (Mar 1, 2021)

Seestern homaged Maranez


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

They just show Doxa doesn't go far enough?


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## chriswalkerband (Feb 6, 2011)

Here’s your cookie, and another homage for ya…copyright infringement doesn’t apply to doxa


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## capilla1 (Aug 10, 2021)

Look up Heimdallr, Pagani, Steeldive many more on Ali-express. Apparently homages are acceptable as long as the name or logo is different.


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## FullFlavorPike (Aug 9, 2017)

this thread has come up 100x before, but tl'dr version of the answer you're going to get eventually is that it I guess you can rip off a design but it's illegal to use someone else's logo.


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## gstand (Mar 10, 2021)

These "homages" are basically counterfeiter parts thrown together with a "branded" dial. That's why they look so good.

Actually, I'd rather see these counterfeiter parts used to make these cheap "Parnis" or "Seestern" watches than actual Doxa, Rolex, Omega counterfeits. It's a legit outlet for an otherwise illegit bunch of watch parts.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

For Seestern see also Maranez and Tactical Frog... and there are a couple of threads in this forum discussing them all which are worth a scan through. For me the straight copies are beyond the pale, especially when the watch they are copying is a current model, but, right or wrong, they have been popular and the cheap (but pretty good quality) homages of all brands aren't going away. Guess its a personal thing if you think its ok or not and there are a fair number of people who are happy with the look for a bargain price.


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## leadbelly2550 (Jan 31, 2020)

BobMartian said:


> Ask Steinhart or Squale


in fairness, Squale no longer does the 1545 homage - pretty much resting on vintage Squale designs - no more sub-looking handsets, bezels, dials.


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## TaxMan (Nov 3, 2016)

So, confessional time. I did purchase one of these Seestern copies (please don’t use the “h” word). I had always been interested in the 300t. It has such great diving heritage. But I ran hot and cold: at times I swore one would be my next purchase, at other times, meh. There’s no place around me to try one on, though. I saw a YT video that compared the Seestern to the original, and it’s spot on in terms of dimensions, weight is close, and a negligibly different case. So I waited for a sale and plunked down $168 for a light blue dialed one. (If I get a real Doxa, it would be orange, but for this, I decided to get in on the light blue thing.)

I’ve had it for about 2 months now and came to the following conclusions

This is a very well made watch. NH35, solid links and end links, great bezel action, sapphire crystal. Screw down crown with visible gasket, beautiful engraved caseback. You’d be hard pressed to find much better for twice the price. The dial color is very washed out compared to the 300t.
Never had a beads of rice bracelet. These are great! I figured it would be like a jubilee, which I don’t like, but I like this. I would get a BoR for some of my other watches.
The most important thing: I don’t want a 300t. I liked it at first, but I ultimately fell out of like because the size of the dial is so small relative to the size of the case. It’s not to my taste.

So this little copy served it’s purpose. I’ll probably enjoy it for the rest of the summer and put it up for sale (or give it to my son or nephew). I had fun, and I don’t have 4 figure watch to unload. Mission accomplished.


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## leadbelly2550 (Jan 31, 2020)

TaxMan said:


> I’ve had it for about 2 months now and came to the following conclusions
> 
> This is a very well made watch. NH35, solid links and end links, great bezel action, sapphire crystal. Screw down crown with visible gasket, beautiful engraved caseback. You’d be hard pressed to find much better for the twice price. The dial color is very washed out compared to the 300t.
> Never had a beads of rice bracelet. These are great! I figured it would be like a jubilee, which I don’t like, but I like this. I would get a BoR for some of my other watches.
> The most important thing: I don’t want a 300t. I liked it at first, but I ultimately fell out of like because the size of the dial is so small relative to the size of the case. It’s not to my taste.


have always thought those bracelets work well with that watch....and i would also never wear that watch either, not my cup of tea.


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## OogieBoogie (Oct 3, 2021)

TaxMan said:


> The most important thing: I don’t want a 300t. I liked it at first, but I ultimately fell out of like because the size of the dial is so small relative to the size of the case. It’s not to my taste.


This is why I'm going to invest in the Tactical Frog version. If I get along with it I'll buy the Doxa in a different colour. If I find something's not right for me then it's an inexpensive lesson. (I'm also concerned that the dial will irritate after a while)


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## 617 (Nov 3, 2021)

The legality of 'homages' (as if the creators of the design should be honored and grateful that their work is making money for other people) is one issue. For me the issue is different - is the watch its own thing, or is it a copy?

Some homage-ness I can deal with. Christopher Ward has some models which refer to, but are not copies of, historical divers and military watches. I have no issue with this, the originals are not available, and these watches are reinterpretations, with new cases and better craftsmanship than the originals.

With the many makers of 'bauhaus' 'marine' or 'flieger' designs (from Laco to Lange), I have no problem. These designs didn't come from a single place, and are again, historical references improved by modern manufacturing.

In both cases, I would buy them if the watches were made by reputable outfits who offered quality and good support, as well as a healthy enough secondary market.

With Seestern it is different. These watches are designed and marketed to be duplicates. The model names refer to other watches. At best all they will do is remind you that you couldn't afford the real thing. You aren't getting quality anything close to the originals. And yes, you are undoubtedly supporing the manufacture of counterfeits because to my eyes these watches use the same parts.

With Steinhart's submariner watches, the quality may be there, but there is no value added with regards to design. That feels fraudulent to me, as a designer by trade. You have to make it your own, even if it means alienating people who just want a sub but can't afford one.


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## FullFlavorPike (Aug 9, 2017)

I think the @TaxMan approach is a fair one. 

Also fair to call it a "copy" not an "homage." 

As a normative matter, I am with @617 and it feels lazy to me to copy someone else's design. I would rather see that energy go into sometime innovative!


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## 617 (Nov 3, 2021)

FullFlavorPike said:


> I think the @TaxMan approach is a fair one.
> 
> Also fair to call it a "copy" not an "homage."
> 
> As a normative matter, I am with @617 and it feels lazy to me to copy someone else's design. I would rather see that energy go into sometime innovative!


That's the basic idea. All designs take from existing references, and some then add something back. For a creative culture to flourish, people need to be giving back more than they are borrowing. Not every watch needs to be a Ploproff or a Nautilus or some other era-definining design, but if it's all homages there won't be anything left worth homaging. Nobody is going to be inspired by Steinhart to design a beautiful new watch. Frankly, Steinhart bothers me the most because the craftsmanship seems very high.


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## DiversWatch (Dec 5, 2015)

I must admit, that I bought such a watch. But when looking closer I found that it was a copy of a 300T made in the 70's and not a todays design. The watch has the thicker case but flat bottom. Means a style which is not offered by Doxa today.


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## Omar009 (Oct 8, 2015)

I have been in this hobby long enough to come to the conclusion that no homage or even a 1 to 1 copy can fulfill the desire for the real thing. Having said that, i can see people buying Homage watches or even 1 to 1 and frankly i am ok with that and here is why, take for example Rolex (one of the most copied/homage watch brands) so the GMT master. The GMT Master is a beautiful watch in terms of size, proportions, functionality, and style. If you want to buy a the Rolex GMT master because its a Rolex and you love the brand then a homage will not be fulfilling for you. If you want to buy the Rolex GMT Master to flip it for a profit then a homage will not be fulfilling for you, however if you want a GMT watch and are interested in the appearance/design of the Rolex but don't care for the brand name on the dial then i think that a homage would work - especially with the current Rolex market and availability. 

add to that these homage watches are now better quality than what they use to be before, companies producing them are really paying attention to details and have excellent fit and finish - not all of them, but for the most part yes they are good. 
I am not going to name any brands but seriously some of them are very well made and yes i am talking about microbrands / companies out of china.


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## BigBluefish (Aug 13, 2009)

Thought about the pale blue Seestern to see if I really wanted the 300T Aquamarine. But I _know _I do, so, what’s the point? 

I’m seriously considering picking up a gilt dial pipped Proxima Scubamaster. I’ve always wanted a MM300, but the width & height, not to mention the price, prevented me from pulling the trigger when the -001 -003 and even the -017 were still in production. The latter models with the “X” and the modern bezel inserts and without “Marinemaster” on the dial are a no-go aesthetically. Seriously, WTF Seiko???

My theory being if I can pull it off height & size wise, and like the look & heft when I’m wearing it (how many watches look cool in pics but when finally on your wrist you’re like “… meh?” Or just “${]£, it’s too big!”) then I can commit to looking for a nice used -001 or -17. I’d have to sell quite a few watches to afford it, but you gotta do what you gotta do. And at least this way, I’d know what to do.


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## martin_blank (May 19, 2010)

I have no issue with homages to watches that are long gone or insanely rare as a way to get a piece of the experience…

With existing, readily available watches like a 300t, it’s designed to take market share from the “original” and to me that’s not what I’m looking for in a watch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

As I have said before they make great 'Testers'. Had the Seestern's been around last spring I would have bought one and tried it on then probably sold in on Ebay a few days later for just £20 less than I paid for it (I did it with a Steeldive Seiko Tuna copy).

Way cheaper than me travelling 200+ miles to the nearest Doxa dealer (I live in a city already).

I wouldn't keep a homage that was a direct copy of a specific watch by a specific company. But I'd probably keep a homage that was a more generic design like a A/B dial flieger that historically made to contract by several companies.

I still think Doxa needs to drop its prices really.


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## seanc01 (Jun 15, 2020)

There is a point when a watch becomes "popular" or well known enough that it becomes a "generic" style. Maybe Doxa has just reached that point.

You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Rolex Submariner or Explorer, "homage". They have become ubiquitous enough that nobody even considers them a "homage" any more. It is a generic "sub", "explorer" type.

Then there are the extreme priced, VC, Moser, PP, GS, et al. That have designs so generic and non descript. Are THEY are at their 20k+ price points a "homage" to everybody else?. Is GS knocking off a Hamilton jazz master? Is it a "homage" of a VC "traditional"? Are both of them knocking off a Timex?

At some point. There has to be SOMETHING, other than the logo on the front that sets it apart. Generally, movement, fit, finish, quality. That you need to look under the hood. And in the case of the high end, looking closely can generally determine authenticity. 

But, it is on the originals to continuously up their game. Generic style, Generic movements, Generic case, hands etc.. And with Asian quality really getting extremely good. It gets harder and harder to justify the 25k+ stainless case with, generic ETA movement, and quality equal to or behind the $200 Chinese "knock off". It becomes more a "pride of ownership", "status symbol". And there is absolutely a place for that. And "No substitute for the REAL THING".

It's almost equivalent to: only you, your spouse and you closest friends know that you buy and wear $2,000 underwear. If you get something out of it, then great.


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## Thomas Miko (Oct 25, 2011)

FullFlavorPike said:


> this thread has come up 100x before, but tl'dr version of the answer you're going to get eventually is that it I guess you can rip off a design but it's illegal to use someone else's logo.


I'm sure it has (Rolex/Steinhart) but I have always assumed that the larger companies would sue to stop these manufacturers (if the copyright has not expired)


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## FullFlavorPike (Aug 9, 2017)

Thomas Miko said:


> I'm sure it has (Rolex/Steinhart) but I have always assumed that the larger companies would sue to stop these manufacturers (if the copyright has not expired)


as I understand it (with a limited understanding of IP law), the overall designs of the watches don't get protection as intellectual property, but the logos do. Rolex can sue to stop somebody making fake rolexes, but the can't really sue to stop somebody making watches that look like Submariners with somebody else's logo on them. 

There are also probably some design _*features *_that can have patent or trademark protection, but I bet that extends more towards something like a particular way of manufacturing a helium escape valve on a dive watch or something.


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## Sampo2 (Jun 11, 2021)

I fully understand people who prefer the "real thing", but homages or copies are legal and that´s that whether we like it or not.

I have no problem whatsoever with homages, but I do have a problem with current brands who continue milking designs from 40 years ago that someone else designed back then when the brand was probably owned by someone else entirely, with little or no relationship with the current owners. 
Frankly, I find it difficult to be on the side of brands charging ridiculous prices that have no correlation with the actual quality and craftmanship of a given watch. At decent prices, yes, give me the original any day. But with today´s absurd pricing policy (and this is not just a Doxa problem, almost any brand has gone down that road) the brands themselves have created a space for homages and copies. It´s no surprise Chinese manufacturers seized the opportunity and stepped in, now that they can offer excellent quality at competitive prices.

Some folks are happy paying more for a brand name, and that´s all well and good, I do it too. But not when I feel I am being ripped off. In those cases I fully understand people who buy homages and I could do it myself without remorse.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

I do wish people would stop using the word "homage" to all and every COPY.
I mean why waste a perfectly good word that is intended for watches that 'PAY HOMAGE' rather than outright COPY?
Why so much "euphemism"??

Anyway, built these these two, from ground up, using disparate parts.
A COPY? Maybe - IDK, I didn't check DOXA all that carefully. I just liked the case, and the combo.


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Real quick and dirty answer. Anyone can make a watch that is an exact copy of a doxa sub provided they don't use the word Doxa. Only patent was nodeco bezel. That expired years ago


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## blackdog1101 (12 mo ago)

617 said:


> At best all they will do is remind you that you couldn't afford the real thing. You aren't getting quality anything close to the originals. And yes, you are undoubtedly supporing the manufacture of counterfeits because to my eyes these watches use the same parts.


I own both Seestern and Doxa. They are both fine watches, and externally I cannot differentiate very much between one and the other. If course the Doxa uses an ETA movement. Is that worth another $1500? In my case I’m sort of disappointed with Doxa for not delivering more for the money. Seestern has nailed it for under $200.


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## OogieBoogie (Oct 3, 2021)

blackdog1101 said:


> I own both Seestern and Doxa. They are both fine watches, and externally I cannot differentiate very much between one and the other. If course the Doxa uses an ETA movement. Is that worth another $1500? In my case I’m sort of disappointed with Doxa for not delivering more for the money. Seestern has nailed it for under $200.


So it begs the question: is it possible to put an ETA2824-2 movement in one of the copies? If so, haven't you created an equal to the Doxa for $400?


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Definitely possible. ..but.....I looked at this but only from the point that i have a spare 300T dial on an Eta movement. NH35 has the movement spacer built into it. The Dial on the maranez / seestern it wider so there is a gap with the doxa dial and no way of stopping the doxa stuff from moving forward to hit the crystal. Could something be done to make wverything fit? Yea, but not a simple task



OogieBoogie said:


> So it begs the question: is it possible to put an ETA2824-2 movement in one of the copies? If so, haven't you created an equal to the Doxa for $400?


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## 617 (Nov 3, 2021)

OogieBoogie said:


> So it begs the question: is it possible to put an ETA2824-2 movement in one of the copies? If so, haven't you created an equal to the Doxa for $400?


My point is that our purchases incentivize certain practices, not that the seestern isn't an attractive or appealing watch.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Haven't seen a Seestern in the flesh but I have a Maranez (non Doxa dial) and a couple of Frogs (not forgetting the most recent more Doxa-ish DevilRay) and I'd say there is quite a difference between them and the Doxa, overall and in the detail. Whether the 'real thing' is worth the price difference to you, or how you stand on funding blatant (and some of the homages are more blatant than others) copies, is a personal preference.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

blackdog1101 said:


> I own both Seestern and Doxa. They are both fine watches, and externally I cannot differentiate very much between one and the other. If course the Doxa uses an ETA movement. Is that worth another $1500? In my case I’m sort of disappointed with Doxa for not delivering more for the money. Seestern has nailed it for under $200.


This is why I feel Doxa (and a lot of other companies) really need to look at what they are offering over these and adjust prices downward accordingly.


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## martin_blank (May 19, 2010)

daglesj said:


> This is why I feel Doxa (and a lot of other companies) really need to look at what they are offering over these and adjust prices downward accordingly.


Seems like plenty of people feel it’s “worth” it…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Watchout63 (Mar 1, 2021)

daglesj said:


> This is why I feel Doxa (and a lot of other companies) really need to look at what they are offering over these and adjust prices downward accordingly.


You won't force Doxa to adjust their prices to suite a "fair" or "value" price, that's for sure. But that's the beauty of capitalism and alternatives like Maranez, Seestern, etc. You get the look at a fraction of the Doxa pricetag.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

martin_blank said:


> Seems like plenty of people feel it’s “worth” it…
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd say Doxa sales are almost negligible in the grand scheme of things. Be surprised if it makes a profit to be honest. Probably a handy tax sink for the large parent company.


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## gstand (Mar 10, 2021)

OogieBoogie said:


> So it begs the question: is it possible to put an ETA2824-2 movement in one of the copies? If so, haven't you created an equal to the Doxa for $400?


well........yes


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## ross2187 (Sep 16, 2016)

Thomas Miko said:


> Isn't this level of "homageness" (homageity?) illegal i.e. a copyright infringement???



You assume China cares about these things. I can assure you they do not.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

martin_blank said:


> I have no issue with homages to watches that are long gone or insanely rare as a way to get a piece of the experience…
> 
> With existing, readily available watches like a 300t, it’s designed to take market share from the “original” and to me that’s not what I’m looking for in a watch.
> 
> ...


"With existing, readily available watches like a 300t, it’s designed to take market share from the 'original' and to me that’s not what I’m looking for in a watch."

I really don't see how a $200 watch is going to take a market share away from a $2200 watch. There's many folks out there who will never be able to, or willing to afford a Doxa, but who would enjoy the case style and design. 

I, at one time, had seven Doxas and more here and there that went out to pay for the newest release, but then their prices became ridiculous and their pre-order discounts weren't discounts when the watch actually hit the market, and their resale value was pitiful. I ended up selling my Doxas. 

I've bought a number of the Doxas "homages" to wear as beaters, and found that they were damned good watches for the money. Actually, more bang for the buck than a new Doxa. Nobody has yet done a homage of the Doxa 5000T which I had in each color, and loved, but went to finance several Tudors and a Rolex back when used Rolexes were dirt cheap. I'd buy a Doxa 5000T homage in a heartbeat, particularly since I haven't seen one for sale in years.

Just my opinion, of course.


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## waruilewi (May 18, 2008)

Omar009 said:


> I have been in this hobby long enough to come to the conclusion that no homage or even a 1 to 1 copy can fulfill the desire for the real thing. Having said that, i can see people buying Homage watches or even 1 to 1 and frankly i am ok with that and here is why, take for example Rolex (one of the most copied/homage watch brands) so the GMT master. The GMT Master is a beautiful watch in terms of size, proportions, functionality, and style. If you want to buy a the Rolex GMT master because its a Rolex and you love the brand then a homage will not be fulfilling for you. If you want to buy the Rolex GMT Master to flip it for a profit then a homage will not be fulfilling for you, however if you want a GMT watch and are interested in the appearance/design of the Rolex but don't care for the brand name on the dial then i think that a homage would work - especially with the current Rolex market and availability.
> 
> add to that these homage watches are now better quality than what they use to be before, companies producing them are really paying attention to details and have excellent fit and finish - not all of them, but for the most part yes they are good.
> I am not going to name any brands but seriously some of them are very well made and yes i am talking about microbrands / companies out of china.


Agreed. I f you purchase a rep because you may find it checks the boxes, at some point you'll be motivated to find the genuine article if the enthuisiasm for that look endures.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Here is another - though no 'Searambler' version :










Maybe not affect new sales but I do wonder how the homages and copies are hitting used Doxa demand and prices - could just be the increased availability of non limited Doxas


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

If I remember right this was a limited run on a Spanish or German forum. I believe it is based on the Seestern. Actually, other than the Maranez vintage which uses a slimmer case and the Tactical Frog which uses a nice thin case but different bezel system, all these 300T style watches use the thicker last gen Synchron case. Same as the Synchron Military. Never was my favourite case.



8505davids said:


> Here is another - though no 'Searambler' version :
> 
> View attachment 16586519
> 
> ...


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

I think you're right about that from what I could pick up on the internet - wasn't sure when it came out but if its the Seestern case must be pretty recent.

My preference moves between the two styles on a regular basis! Sometimes I like the chunky cases of the current 300T, the 1200T and the Maranez ... sometimes I prefer the slimmer vintage look of my 300 and Nivada Antartic. No doubting the TF wears well - it was a surprise they didn't just trot out a full Doxa clone like the others which, regardless your opinion on homages and the infamous half-bezel, I suppose they get a little credit for.


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## ean10775 (Nov 8, 2012)

I ordered a Seestern the other day in their “Tiffany Blue” dial configuration. I’ve wanted a Doxa since I got into watches, but never pulled the trigger on a 1200T or one of the Sub 300 anniversary LEs. With no access to try on a Doxa, this seemed like a fairly inexpensive trial run.

(As an aside wonder which will arrive first - the Seestern or the Sub 300 I ordered from Jomashop).


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## BigBluefish (Aug 13, 2009)

My money is on the Seestern showing up on your doorstep.


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

I use to hate knock offs but now take no issue with them. Some can’t afford to spend thousands on watches. If it allows them to enjoy the hobby, why not? The greater number of people in this hobby the better i think. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

usc1 said:


> I use to hate knock offs but now take no issue with them. Some can’t afford to spend thousands on watches. If it allows them to enjoy the hobby, why not? The greater number of people in this hobby the better i think.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well folks down the line aint getting any richer...


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## usc1 (Jun 25, 2007)

daglesj said:


> Well folks down the line aint getting any richer...


Unfortunately, the middle class in the USA is steadily decreasing according to Pew research. The divide is becoming larger with newer tech innovations. I cannot imagine it is any different in the UK.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

usc1 said:


> Unfortunately, the middle class in the USA is steadily decreasing according to Pew research. The divide is becoming larger with newer tech innovations. I cannot imagine it is any different in the UK.


Indeed, I'm just waiting for the articles in the tame media saying "Food - Do you really need it for you and your children?" or "Heating problems for the over 70's? Wrap yourself in loft insulation!", "Shoes - Are they overrated for kids?"

Who in the West will have $50,000 for a 'basic' Rolex in 15 years time?


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## Alex Thyl (Apr 24, 2008)

A lot of watchmakers have an "homage" that goes a little too far.

But, hey, if you like the watch, buy and enjoy it.

P.S.: Actually I don't like this expression. Watchmakers have been using, borrowing each others design elements from the very beginning. Most watchmakers don't bother to patent designs. Moreover design patents expire after 15 years and become public property.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

usc1 said:


> Unfortunately, the middle class in the USA is steadily decreasing according to Pew research. The divide is becoming larger with newer tech innovations. I cannot imagine it is any different in the UK.


I've heard it said that this is bcz more middle class people have moved UP, to join the "uppers."
Great spin.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

Chronopolis said:


> I've heard it said that this is bcz more middle class people have moved UP, to join the "uppers."
> Great spin.


Oh is that the wonder of 'trickle down economics' at work? Or better still "the American dream"? Ignoring the fact 80% of the 1% inherited their wealth and never had to work a day in their lives. 🤣

That gap between the 1% and the 99% is just getting bigger and bigger. I often wonder what the corporations will do when they have leached all the cash from the 99%. Who is going to buy their burgers, trainers, laptops, watches and cars then? Can't see Bezos or Buffet in a F150, certainly not Musk.

Anyway back to watches...


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

daglesj said:


> Oh is that the wonder of 'trickle down economics' at work? 🤣
> 
> That gap between the 1% and the 99% is just getting bigger and bigger. I often wonder what the corporations will do when they have leached all the cash from the 99%. Who is going to buy their burgers, trainers, laptops, watches and cars then?


I, too, wonder about this every day.
What, exactly, do the 1% want? 
What, exactly, is their idea of a good world / good life?
I ask this also about the ones who say they want to "burn the whole system down." 
I wish I could get a clear answer from them, to the Q: Supposing you succeed. Then what?


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## supawabb (Aug 27, 2007)

A little too far? Nope. I certainly enjoy mine.






And to those who will say the Seestern's a fake, a homage, you need to buy the real thing... blah blah blah... here you go.



The Seestern for less than 10% of the price of a Doxa... it is simply outstanding. Lume easily lasts the entire night. The bezel clicks are very good, though not the best I've felt, with a small amount of bcckplay but line up perfectly to each indice. Crown screws down very nicely. The caseback is engraved with far more detail than many brands out there costing double or even triple. The movement, it's a basic NH35A. And you know what... mine is running spot on when worn ~8 hours a day. If worn 12-14 hours, it'll run +1-2 seconds a day. One surely cannot complain with that. All in all, I've had much more expensive watches that were not even near the quality of this little gem and am proud to wear it, in fact I have the silver dialled variant on it's way as well.

As for my two Doxa's, I've owned my Searambler since 2006 and the Professional since 2007. Both are NIB and not for sale 👍


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

Seestern strikes again!


__
http://instagr.am/p/Ce0sz02LFYs/


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Holy Sheeet.

I had heard they were going to do one but woooooo. Wonder if it has a flat caseback



bigvic said:


> Seestern strikes again!
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ce0sz02LFYs/


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Interesting! Especially like to see a side on wrist pic for the obvious reasons ...doubt they will have a black/ceramic bezel option .... wonder if its the same case as the other copy ...San Martin I think?


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

If they make a 1500T version I'm in.


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## BigBluefish (Aug 13, 2009)

bigvic said:


> Seestern strikes again!
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ce0sz02LFYs/


San Martin has one in the works as well, but it looks like The Starfish beat ‘em to the punch.

I encouraged SM to do theirs with a flat caseback that would fit the Doxa model. Wonder if Seestern got the message?


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Say one thing for these homage companies Maranez/TF/Seestern etc they do seem to listen and react pretty well ...


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

8505davids said:


> Say one thing for these homage companies Maranez/TF/Seestern etc they do seem to listen and react pretty well ...


Yeah the thing is they are on like a 3rd revision in less than 18 months. Give it another 6 months and their versions will be far superior to Doxas.

Could be already.


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## JIFB (May 7, 2017)

daglesj said:


> Yeah the thing is they are on like a 3rd revision in less than 18 months. Give it another 6 months and their versions will be far superior to Doxas.
> 
> Could be already.


Yep, but they still will not be the real Doxa brand.
But at least it will leave a choice for those whon do not want to invest in a real Doxa.


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## blackdog1101 (12 mo ago)

bigvic said:


> Seestern strikes again!
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Ce0sz02LFYs/


Is this for real? I’m interested if they do this!


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

blackdog1101 said:


> Is this for real? I’m interested if they do this!


Looks like you’re in luck then.


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## bigvic (May 15, 2010)

I was never really a fan of the 600T and these do nothing for me but I received a vintage Samui from Maranez today and I’d say it’s a step up from Seestern.


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## Watchout63 (Mar 1, 2021)

Wait, the 600T is even smaller case size than the 300T? 40 vs 42.5mm? I guess pictures can be deceiving.


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

They really do just specialise in straight rip off copies though - their Zenith Pilot copy, amongst others, is just shameless....but there is certainly a market...


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## Loevhagen (Dec 15, 2013)

Seestern is just another Pagani: PAGANI DESIGN Official Store

Personally I do not understand why the @Doxa Watches Official allow this part of the Watchuseek forum allow discussions like this encompassing copies (e.g. Seestern) of Doxa watches.

All these threads and topics should be moved and moderated to another part of the Watchuseek forum TBH.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

Loevhagen said:


> Seestern is just another Pagani: PAGANI DESIGN Official Store
> 
> Personally I do not understand why the @Doxa Watches Official allow this part of the Watchuseek forum allow discussions like this encompassing copies (e.g. Seestern) of Doxa watches.
> 
> All these threads and topics should be moved and moderated to another part of the Watchuseek forum TBH.


I think it's good for Doxa when they drop by for a look every 6 months, to know "we know".

At the end of the day I don't think Doxa cares enough. They are just another micro-brand themselves really. Somewhere for the larger company to push the cash around the books.


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## Watchout63 (Mar 1, 2021)

Loevhagen said:


> Seestern is just another Pagani: PAGANI DESIGN Official Store
> 
> Personally I do not understand why the @Doxa Watches Official allow this part of the Watchuseek forum allow discussions like this encompassing copies (e.g. Seestern) of Doxa watches.
> 
> All these threads and topics should be moved and moderated to another part of the Watchuseek forum TBH.


While I agree that we shouldn't be discussing or posting the homages in the Doxa forum, I'm not sure Doxa really cares. In fact you may have to send them a link so they know how to get back to this forum. Although they do tend to remember when it's time to hype an upcoming model.


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

My usual position is it is distasteful for a competitor to make a clone of a watch that is currently in production. This is based on my belief that design IP and brand investment ought to be protected for the original manufacturer.

Doxa, on the other hand, seems to be focused on marketing designs that are 40 to 50 years old. 

I find it difficult to argue for design protection to last forever. It doesn’t work that way in other industries, so why should the watch business be any different?

I would much prefer for these Doxa clone manufacturing companies to add at least something to the original design (new dial colors, new materials, etc.), but if a brand is living off of only legacy designs, this is a business risk you need to anticipate.


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## valerian839 (Jan 7, 2021)

daglesj said:


> At the end of the day I don't think Doxa cares enough. They are just another micro-brand themselves really. Somewhere for the larger company to push the cash around the books.


Doxa's current management reminds me of when wealthy husbands buy their wife a business so the wife has something to keep her busy and make her feel important...


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

I agree that whether homages are morally acceptable or not (IMO) is that they are not copying current production models and the fact that some effort should be made to avoid direct copies (TF with their indices/case/half-bezel, Maranez at least initially not using the NoDeCo scale on the bezel and selection of Army dial colours, NTH with a sizeable hint of Doxa but much more originality) - but Seestern and the like are just really complete rip offs (I don't care that they offer decent quality/VFM) ....had they got their 600s on the market before Doxa got round to it then I'd see that as fair enough. But they didn't - in fact the only reason they are doing it is because its been reissued by Doxa. Its some hard neck really - see what is popular and then just copy it. But there are lots of buyers.

Should the homages have a place on the Doxa forum ... well yes and no ... they are a Doxa related issue and relevant to Doxa customers I guess, so I've no real problem with limiting them to a single thread within this forum. Now I'm going to have a nice dram of locally made Cragganmore and watch the golf...


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## BSwed (Jul 14, 2021)

Well if nothing else sometimes you be lucky enough that a Seestern 300T bracelet is a more or less perfect fit for an early 300T case. Total plug and play - I used endlinks, pins and all from the Seestern.


















Now I just have to decide if I should brush the bracelet a bit to dull it down to match the case. The second picture exaggerates the difference in shine a bit - in real life the match is pretty good.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

I do wonder if the hands will be a good fit too...


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

BSwed said:


> Well if nothing else sometimes you be lucky enough that a Seestern 300T bracelet is a more or less perfect fit for an early 300T case. Total plug and play - I used endlinks, pins and all from the Seestern.
> View attachment 16709414
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe put the strap in a jar with some sand and turn it on a powerdrill for a couple of minutes?


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## Ryeguy (Jun 24, 2009)

daglesj said:


> I do wonder if the hands will be a good fit too...


I doubt it. I don't know what movement the Seastern uses, but if it is a Seiko movement, I don't think the pinion holes are the same size as required for the ETA in the Doxa.

FWIW, even if they did fit, I would rather have an "honest" old Doxa that showed its age a bit than a "perfect" looking frankenDoxa. 

The bracelet doesn't bother because those get changed all the time, but internal parts I'd personally try to keep as original as possible.


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Light brushing with the green plastic pot scrubber pad will take the bling off the beads



BSwed said:


> Well if nothing else sometimes you be lucky enough that a Seestern 300T bracelet is a more or less perfect fit for an early 300T case. Total plug and play - I used endlinks, pins and all from the Seestern.
> View attachment 16709414
> 
> 
> ...


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

$189 for it. But it looks like the also made an exact copy of the caseback, replacing the Jenny fish with the Seestern wave. They do quote it as being 13.5mm thick as opposed to the 600T which is14.15mm. So maybe caseback is flatter



bigvic said:


> I was never really a fan of the 600T and these do nothing for me but I received a vintage Samui from Maranez today and I’d say it’s a step up from Seestern.


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## BSwed (Jul 14, 2021)

Flyingdoctor said:


> Light brushing with the green plastic pot scrubber pad will take the bling off the beads


Thanks, it worked quite well!


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Looks like the Seestern '600' has a similar thick back to the Doxa so will likely wear much the same - tickles me a wee bit that they are so focused on copying things that they have even copied the major issue with this watch for most folks. 1mm less in height (13.5mm) so might be bit better. They are also showing coloured bezels but only the steel versions in their store at the moment.


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## Flyingdoctor (Feb 11, 2006)

Pretty sad really. Just because you can copy something doesn't mean you should. Yea, there are no restrictions in terms of patent or unique design etc etc to doing it, but at least by changing the caseback or tweaking the design a bit and improving on it, they could have been seen to be taking the higher ground, although not much. This just makes me shake my head.


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## BigBluefish (Aug 13, 2009)

Don’t know why they didn’t go flat caseback. Seems to me it could have been an easy fix. 

It really is odd. They can do better. Their little 37mm 62Mas homage is great. They did a Grand Seiko-esque homage that just dropped. It’s not a GS, it’s not an Omega case or a Doxa Sub 200 case but has elements of both and a very GS bracelet but it’s ultimately its own thing. I like it.

They did keep their standard printed logo on the dial which looks quite out of place on the dressier watch so there is that one, glaring mistake. They need something a little classier. The little cartoon starfish definitely would NOT cut it on this watch.


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## jorgenl (Dec 1, 2017)

I just received a Maranez Samui Vintage Searambler.

I already own to Doxa's 300 Pro and 300T Divingstar Poseidon, I also used to own a 1200T Pro and a 1500T Searambler.

I had been on the lookout for a 300/300T Searambler for awhile and order a 300T from Jomashop back in March, we all know how that went ;-)

So after reading this thread and Doc's Maranez review I thought, what the heck, and ordered one.

My first impressions:

1. Shipping was very fast..
2. Finish is actually very good.
3. Bezel action is on par with Doxa
4. The silver sunburst dial does not seem as "pronounced" as it was on my 1500T SR
5. I prefer the shape of the doomed crystal on my 300 Pro
6. The case back is a little "rough" in the "engraved" area
7. As Doc mentioned it came with a quite nice watch roll
8. It also included an Isofrane style strap which was a surprise to me
9. Bracelet seem to have more "play" and feels sloppier than the Doxa bracelet.
It is also the longest bracelet I have ever seen.
I have a 7.75" or so wrist (my Rolex submariner fits perfectly straight out of the box, as did my GMT II)
The Maranez bracelet un-sized must fit at least a 9" wrist.

I did not have time to size the bracelet last night so I took it off and slapped on the first NATO I could find in the strap box.


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## carlens.lal (7 mo ago)

they have been popular and the cheap (but pretty good quality) homages of all brands aren't going away.





Speed Test​


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## 8505davids (Jan 14, 2017)

Yeah they won't go away ... I just wonder if there is room in the market for any more - or whether any new ones will make an effort like NTH or TF to juggle the design a bit or just trot out straight copies like Seestern and Maranez who seem have decided that its safe to copy the NoDeCo now. As above I'd say Seestern have missed an open goal by not combining the great view-from-above of the 600 with a bit of curve in the case/lugs or flatter case back so its not a wrist high-rider.

Per jorgeni I also prefer the domed crystal of the 300 to the Samui Vintage - I know some folks don't like the distortion of the dial but I love how it makes that dial look even smaller against the flatter cushion case. A 300 Searambler would likely be my next Doxa too.


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## Watchout63 (Mar 1, 2021)

Decided it was a great day to put on my Maranez as I keep this for a summer watch.


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## gstand (Mar 10, 2021)

valerian839 said:


> Doxa's current management reminds me of when wealthy husbands buy their wife a business so the wife has something to keep her busy and make her feel important...


....or vice versa


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## BigBluefish (Aug 13, 2009)

Another miss by Seestern on “their” 600t ( they aren’t shy about it are they?): they used the wrong hands. Specifically, they’re using the dwarf hour hand from the classic Doxa subs. It just looks wrong. 

Funny, their pre launch renders showed 600-ish hands, but their IG post has a watch with the old squinchy hour hand. Looks like the just cheaper out and used stock on hand. Fail! 

If you’re gonna do a freakin’ copy … 

V2 will likely address this and maybe bring out a flatter caseback. 

For better, or worse.


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## Chronopolis (Apr 8, 2009)

I got a suntan just looking at that photo! 



Watchout63 said:


> Decided it was a great day to put on my Maranez as I keep this for a summer watch.
> 
> View attachment 16731797


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

BigBluefish said:


> Another miss by Seestern on “their” 600t ( they aren’t shy about it are they?): they used the wrong hands. Specifically, they’re using the dwarf hour hand from the classic Doxa subs. It just looks wrong.
> 
> Funny, their pre launch renders showed 600-ish hands, but their IG post has a watch with the old squinchy hour hand. Looks like the just cheaper out and used stock on hand. Fail!
> 
> ...


Yeah just wait 6 months...no one needs a 600T that bad anyway.


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## BSwed (Jul 14, 2021)

daglesj said:


> Yeah just wait 6 months...no one needs a 600T that bad anyway.


I'd say 3 months tops - Seestern are fast.


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## Blackdog (Apr 27, 2007)

As a diver I'm very curious about the SUB300... I have dived with most of the classic designs, Sub, SD, PO, Seiko Tuna and Turtles... And some micros too, lately I've been using a Helson Sharkmaster 300 that has been surprisingly good underwater, but I recently sold it for no good reason... I use a dive computer, but like to also wear a watch on which I usually keep dive time.

Recently have been wanting to understand the appeal of the Doxa300 design. After reading Flyingdoctor's articles and reviews on the Maranez, I decided to give it a try to see how I feel with the design.
Yesterday I received this one:









Quality is pretty amazing for the price, and does not feel as big as it looks in pictures.

I intend to put it on the supplied Iso rubber strap and dive with it this Summer. Let's see how it goes... I see three possible scenarios: A) Not for me, thanks. And flip it. B) Not bad for the task, but this one is good enough. C) Hey, I've seen the light, and go for a real Doxa.

First impressions are good, though not sure how easy this bezel will be to read elapsed time... It is certainly very easy to handle though.


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

Blackdog said:


> First impressions are good, though not sure how easy this bezel will be to read elapsed time... It is certainly very easy to handle though.


I did a post about this over a year ago about how readable is that bezel underwater or for anyone over the age of 40.


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## Blackdog (Apr 27, 2007)

daglesj said:


> I did a post about this over a year ago about how readable is that bezel underwater or for anyone over the age of 40.


Found your post !
My fears exactly ! I'm counting on the magnification of underwater diffraction to help.... We'll see.... (BTW, I'm already in my fifties.... Fifty-twelve exactly.)


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

Well its not as bad as trying to use a Seiko Flightmaster! I still love that watch though.


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## dnodelman (Aug 12, 2020)

Truthfully most "homages" go too far.


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## jorgenl (Dec 1, 2017)

jorgenl said:


> I just received a Maranez Samui Vintage Searambler.
> 
> I already own to Doxa's 300 Pro and 300T Divingstar Poseidon, I also used to own a 1200T Pro and a 1500T Searambler.
> 
> ...


UPDATE:

So, I have owned the Maranez for a couple of months now and some additional thoughts:

1. I finally resized the bracelet and put it back on the watch. It just does not seem to have the same finish and feel as my Doxa BORs (as expected I guess)
2. The crown "feel" when unscrewing, winding, setting time, screwing back in is way inferior to my Doxas.
3. The silver dial does not pop as much as the 1500 Searambler that I had and the way the 300 Searambler looks like in photos. probably because of lack of or less pronounced sunburst.
4. It does not wear as nice as the Doxa 300T, mid case is thicker which seems to add to this.

If it stays in the herd, it will be on NATO, Erika or Isofrane and be considered a beater....


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## daglesj (Jan 5, 2020)

jorgenl said:


> and be considered a beater....


That's why you buy a homage...keep the real one for day to day/best and the homage for times when that wouldn't be a good idea. Like going to LA or such...


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## enaheli (Jan 16, 2019)

Nice watch


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## enaheli (Jan 16, 2019)

Blackdog said:


> As a diver I'm very curious about the SUB300... I have dived with most of the classic designs, Sub, SD, PO, Seiko Tuna and Turtles... And some micros too, lately I've been using a Helson Sharkmaster 300 that has been surprisingly good underwater, but I recently sold it for no good reason... I use a dive computer, but like to also wear a watch on which I usually keep dive time.
> 
> Recently have been wanting to understand the appeal of the Doxa300 design. After reading Flyingdoctor's articles and reviews on the Maranez, I decided to give it a try to see how I feel with the design.
> Yesterday I received this one:
> ...


Maranez is really a good looking watch


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## alabbasi (Apr 12, 2006)

TaxMan said:


> So, confessional time. I did purchase one of these Seestern copies (please don’t use the “h” word). .....................I decided to get in on the light blue thing.)


I bought the same one for exactly the same reason. It's a beautiful watch but I rarely wear it as I have a big wrist and it looks a bit small for me. 
I've been eyeballing the Doxa for about 15 years and was always on the fence. This watch did help me get off the fence.


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## Blackdog (Apr 27, 2007)

enaheli said:


> Maranez is really a good looking watch


It is a really well made watch. But I ended up flipping mine.
I found I was not comfortable with the "homage that went a little too far" concept. Euphemism for "copy" as TaxMan put it...
But it served its purpose. I confirmed that I don't like the design (or find it practical, for that matter) enough to spend money on the real thing either.
It was one of the foreseeable scenarios anyway.


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