# Vacheron and Constantin Service is the Worst



## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

[HR][/HR]Im in total disbelief about how crappy the attention and service VC offers their "customers". Its seriously at a level that is shocking. From giving me false information for how long my initial wait would be when I bought my VC overseas, to sending me expired chocolates as a "sorry" to now having waited over 3 MONTHS for them to do something as simple as send me 3 screws to replace ones that simply feel out. Serious 3 months to not provide any service on my watch, but rather just have to put 3 screws in an envelope and put them in the mail.

How can a brand like this stay in business this long with service levels equal to the government.

My next luxury watch purchase will definitely not be a VC simply based on the fact that they send a clear message they do not care about my experience.

VC can eat a bag of dcks.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> [HR][/HR]Im in total disbelief about how crappy the attention and service VC offers their "customers". Its seriously at a level that is shocking. From giving me false information for how long my initial wait would be when I bought my VC overseas, to sending me expired chocolates as a "sorry" to now having waited over 3 MONTHS for them to do something as simple as send me 3 screws to replace ones that simply feel out. Serious 3 months to not provide any service on my watch, but rather just have to put 3 screws in an envelope and put them in the mail.
> 
> How can a brand like this stay in business this long with service levels equal to the government.
> 
> ...


I have experienced very protracted delays regarding servicing another high end watch. I discussed it in a thread not that long ago. Sometimes I'm shocked.


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## alexwatch (Sep 12, 2012)

Maybe we should question the words[ high end] sometimes' its easy to give a free pass. Sorry for your trouble.


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## GETS (Dec 8, 2011)

Just interested?

Did you buy from a high street AD, internet grey market, or private used?


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## rogerfromco (Sep 15, 2010)

That is bad CS. These are simple things and when they fail there, you have to wonder how they will perform when it comes time for service. 

For me, Blancpain was a bust too. When they serviced my watch, they noted that the hands were scratched (not sure how) but the cost to replace was cheap so I said yes. They sent the watch back with completely different style of hands on it and said nothing about it! When I called, they said they were discontinued. I protested since the watch was less than 5 years old and amazingly, they found some. All in all, it was a 5 month process that left me far from satisfied with the company, but I still love the watch.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

This is quite amazing.. I have not heard of good service --- prompt and accurate --- from any of these high end brands. I know there is going to be some ascertainment bias because more likely for folks to respond with problematic service.. but still.. This is amazing..


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

GETS said:


> Just interested?
> 
> Did you buy from a high street AD, internet grey market, or private used?


What difference would that make if he pays for the service?


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## Drop of a Hat (Dec 16, 2011)

lmcgbaj said:


> What difference would that make if he pays for the service?


Believe it or not, to some companies, it matters. Even if they don't say explicitly it does.


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

Drop of a Hat said:


> Believe it or not, to some companies, it matters. Even if they don't say explicitly it does.


When you send your watch under warranty it needs to have the AD stamped on the warranty card and the proper date. When you just send it for service out of warranty and you pay, the manufacturer does not know or care how you got the watch. You don't send them any paperwork.


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## Drop of a Hat (Dec 16, 2011)

lmcgbaj said:


> When you send your watch under warranty it needs to have the AD stamped on the warranty card and the proper date. When you just send it for service out of warranty and you pay, the manufacturer does not know how or care how you got the watch. No?


Watch companies don't like it when you buy grey market. I'm not just saying this arbitrarily. I worked for an AD for a bit a long time ago, and then more recently, for a major Swiss company.


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

Drop of a Hat said:


> Watch companies don't like it when you buy grey market. I'm not just saying this arbitrarily. I worked for an AD for a bit a long time ago, and then more recently, for a major Swiss company.


That I understand completely. I am sure they do.

My point was that for out of warranty work you don't need to send any paperwork so they don't know where the watch came from. Not sure if there is any database that they cross check to see where the watch came from.


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## Drop of a Hat (Dec 16, 2011)

lmcgbaj said:


> That I understand completely. I am sure they do.
> 
> My point was that for out of warranty work you don't need to send any paperwork so they don't know where the watch came from. Not sure if there is any database that they cross check to see where the watch came from.


For higher end companies, they usually check the serial numbers anyway against the stolen watches registry. So I assume it can tell them other things....


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## incomplet (Jul 1, 2012)

I'm not looking forward to sending my Patek Philippe in for a service if i'll be getting similar CS from VC. Down right outrageous and really they should offer some kind of compensation since they are taking so long. I know Hublot have a scheme which loans your out a temporary 'quartz' watch whilst your watch is being serviced.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sassicaia said:


> [HR][/HR]Im in total disbelief about how crappy the attention and service VC offers their "customers". Its seriously at a level that is shocking. From giving me false information for how long my initial wait would be when I bought my VC overseas, to sending me expired chocolates as a "sorry" to now having waited over 3 MONTHS for them to do something as simple as send me 3 screws to replace ones that simply feel out. Serious 3 months to not provide any service on my watch, but rather just have to put 3 screws in an envelope and put them in the mail.
> 
> How can a brand like this stay in business this long with service levels equal to the government.
> 
> ...


TY for sharing.

I don't yet own any VC. The watch I have planned for next Summer is a VC, the 1972. I haven't seen the watch in person, so I don't know if it has screws to hold the case back or to hold the strap(s), or both even. I do know I wouldn't be keen for either to come undone, especially if I have the watch on at the time, which would undoubtedly be at some formal function given the style of that watch. I think a great movement inside a watch is pointless if it's going to fall out because the case back falls off. Better to offer a quartz watch with a run of the mill movement so it's not such a pain to deal with if/when if such a thing is going to happen.

Can you share what screws fell out and the relevant model? That's the kind of thing I'd expect to hear -- screws falling out -- about eyeglasses, not watches, and certainly not any watch costing what VC charge. Your anecdote has put me off VC a little. It's not that I expect to need anything special in the way of service, but three months to put some screws in the mail is well below my expectations.

I won't lie. When I hear of such mundane things as your situation, OP, and that the company involved is really, really dragging their feet resolving it, I begin to wonder if there's some major corporate change afoot. I wonder things like: are they on the verge of going out of business? Are they about to be bought/sold to some other organization? Regardless of how hand crafted their products may be, do the run such an inefficient operation that they can't have something like screws just hanging out in a box on a shelf somewhere?

TY for any additional insights you have have to share. BTW, did you happen to visit a VC boutique to see if they might have the screws you need?

All the best and good luck on getting a resolution?


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

1.) It doesnt matter if I bought the watch from an AD, off the street or if it was handed down from my grand dad. Im not asking for any freebee or warranty service. Im happy to pay full pop for the parts, and shipping. ( i bought it from an AD).
2.) "grey market" is 100% supported from ADs AND manufactures  If the ADs and manufactures hated them as much as they said they would kill them. After all the ball to do so is 100% in their court.
3.) Fck them. 


im talking about 3 screws. Even if I paid 15k for a watch grey market im at least in the VERY SMALL market of people who drop large dollars on high margin watches. Its best not to piss me off. Guess what? Im never buying a VC again and I have the means too.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Drop of a Hat said:


> Watch companies don't like it when you buy grey market. I'm not just saying this arbitrarily. I worked for an AD for a bit a long time ago, and then more recently, for a major Swiss company.


Well, if they don't like folks buying grey market, they could offer different sales and inventory turn requirements to their ADs so the ADs don't sell the watches to the grey market dealers. In some cases, the manufacturers could just themselves not sell the products to grey market.

But of course to eliminate the grey market sales could well mean no sales at all for a good number of the upper tier makers. There's no doubt that the markup on high end watches is astronomical in comparison to many other high end goods. I think anyone can plainly see that it'd be very tough to remain in business selling only $100K+ watches to the few folks who'll pay that kind of money. That means that, just like any other manufacturer, the high end companies have to live off their bread and butter products which are the ones at the lower end of their price ranges.

The only way to live off those products is for them to sell, but the fact is that despite what it may seem like here on WUS and on other such forums, the general population doesn't much go for spending that kind of money on a watch and when there are a swarm of companies all vying for those dollars, it's no wonder Rolex had done so much to make it's brand "the" go-to brand for luxury watches. Part of that means a subtle wink and nod will do if it means that a great many of their products make it to consumers at a discount. The manufacturer doesn't any any economic reason to care if their products are sold on the grey market because it got it's money in the transaction between it and it's AD. If a swarm of watches stay in the grey market seller's shelves, the watch manufacturer has no short term reason to care. In the long term, and particularly if the demand is so low the grey market guys have a glut of a specific brand's product, the manufacturer may need to adjust it's production schedules and possibly rethink its strategy with its ADs.

I just used Rolex's name; I don't truly know if they are the wink and nod type or if they genuinely take exception to the grey market's existence. Given their dominance in the market, I suspect it's more the former than the latter. One thing is certain, it'll take a a lot more marketing resources than many high-end makers have available to spend for other brands to compete in Rolex's section of the field. Omega can make a go at it, but not many others can. Rolex isn't spending all that much (comparatively) on new watch design. Instead, it spends tons on ads and promotion, and capitalizes on it's existing designs. How many ways can they dress up and Oyster? The answer remains to be seen. I think the PPs and VCs and so on in the industry know this, which is why mostly you don't see anything from them that even remotely seems like an Oyster watch. They play where Rolex doesn't: the very elegant dress watch arena. Think about it, take VC. They offer the Overseas collection. Put that up next to the countless flavors of Oyster Rolex offers and one can only reason that VC offers it just to be competitive and have something as an alternative.

Take a Calatrava 5120 that right now retails for $25K, but could be had for $18K at a grey market outfit. Even to someone willing to spend $25K, $7K of savings is significant. I know without a doubt that if I've budgeted to spend $25K and I find the watch elsewhere for $7K less than my budget, I'm going to end up with at least two very nice watches, or one very nice one and a couple nice ones. If my budget were $15K, might stretch it to buy something I really liked for $18, but I wouldn't stretch it to $25K regardless of how much I like the item. I suspect I'm not alone feeling that way about it. Frankly, I think but for the grey market sellers a great many folks wouldn't buy any or as many of the high end products as they do buy. I think the same dynamic is at play across the entire spectrum of price points.

All the best.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

incomplet said:


> I'm not looking forward to sending my Patek Philippe in for a service if i'll be getting similar CS from VC. Down right outrageous and really they should offer some kind of compensation since they are taking so long. I know Hublot have a scheme which loans your out a temporary 'quartz' watch whilst your watch is being serviced.


A PP was the brand I was referring to in a previous post.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Drop of a Hat said:


> Believe it or not, to some companies, it matters. Even if they don't say explicitly it does.


Yup, same thing with high-end car brands. Don't buy an Aston-Martin from a dealership if you plan on using a different Aston-Martin dealership for warranty maintenance or other servicing of your ride. That's just one example. They're all pretty terrible that way.


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## renovar (Oct 7, 2013)

I don't have a Vc so can't directly relate to OP.

My personal experience with a Breguet AD and purchasing experience has been very good. First a haggle-free discount. Then when the watch is delayed my rep included a leather bound notebook to"thank" me for being patient. Then when I brought it in to get the bracelet resized (this is after I have paid) and their watchmaker is out a couple days -they took my watch (so I don't have to come back as I live an hour away) had the bracelet sized for free then they even ship it to me without charge! I dunno if this is standard but I must say is mad solid customer service.


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## renovar (Oct 7, 2013)

In regards to the service part I will say for my ALS (bought in asia AD) my local US AD would not take it for service without papers (which I left in a safe in Asia). I took it to tourneaus who would agree to service it w/o papers (for a large fee of course) had to call ALS headquarters to verify serial number before they would touch it.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

TimelessFan said:


> This is baffling to me. Then why do they "flood" the market with more watches than there are demands?
> 
> PS I sent in one of my APs in for service two weeks ago (warranty expired). They called me back and told me $800 and it'll take, get this, SIXTEEN WEEKS (not days, WEEKS).
> 
> Anyone take their watch to a local/reputable watch shop to service/repair their timepiece?


No, but have though about it after I "lost" one for 6 MONTHS being 'serviced'!!!!


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## alexwatch (Sep 12, 2012)

If your truly high end than backing your product is as important as selling it.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

alexwatch said:


> If your truly high end than backing your product is as important as selling it.


I agree, but I think backing your product high end or not is essential! Arguably, if one is willing to spend a premium, then customer service should be stellar. My Mercedes dealership makes me feel like a king when I bring my car in for service, and I almost don't mind spending big bucks for the service because of the treatment I receive. It should be the same for the high end watches as well.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

Just to add that in addition to having a good relationship with the AD, I feel that when the AD is a big account for the brand it makes a difference. Actually it was implied on phone conversations that I had with a representatives of the brand.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

GlenRoiland said:


> I agree, but I think backing your product high end or not is essential! Arguably, if one is willing to spend a premium, then customer service should be stellar. My Mercedes dealership makes me feel like a king when I bring my car in for service, and I almost don't mind spending big bucks for the service because of the treatment I receive. It should be the same for the high end watches as well.





heuerolexomega said:


> Just to add that in addition to having a good relationship with the AD, I feel that when the AD is a big account for the brand it makes a difference. Actually it was implied on phone conversations that I had with a representatives of the brand.


I do see that. I went to a conference this week where one of the reps I deal with told me I am his largest account, and he showed how that results in special treatment, etc. He also informed me that I am one of his "easiest" low maintenance account which further accentuates his treatment of us and the product.


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## alexwatch (Sep 12, 2012)

Good point GlenRoiland ' look at Smith&Wesson and Ruger I have had work done and these firearms where many years old and in one case it was my fault" they repaired and sent them back to me at there expense' that to me is high end service.


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## TimelessFan (Aug 19, 2013)

GlenRoiland said:


> No, but have though about it after I "lost" one for 6 MONTHS being 'serviced'!!!!


According to AP, I won't get my dual timer back until 2014, hence my search for another GMT. Withdrawl is a betch!


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

Assuming a watch is out of warranty--- how do folks feel about sending their watch to a very reputable repair facility. There are a number of widely used ADs with good reputations that have large high end repair facilities?


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> Are you expecting me to come back to you with a world wide scientific study that provides the real reason people buy expensive watches?
> 
> Even if there was such a thing, and even with guaranteed anonymity, people would still not tell the truth so it would still be debatable whether those results are scientific and unbiased
> 
> Of course this is pure speculation on my side. But when you look at how much Rolex produces and sells every year just because they project status in more eyes than any other brand - and yes, this is a FACT  - I am sure I am not that far away from the truth.


Thx for clarification, don't actually include Rolex when I contemplate "expensive timepiece *only* purchased for status". I guess I fall in the 10% who purchase for status as well as other reasons such as those you mention ;-) . . . .


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sassicaia said:


> The screws that feel out were not actually from the case back but rather a piece that holds a part of the main case which the strap attaches to. When I went to my AD the first question I asked was if they had screws that fit. They said no, and that no one would. The size/length is proprietary I guess.


OK. Fair enough. I was just curious given what you'd said earlier. Have you shared your thoughts/problem here: http://www.thehourlounge.com. That is VC's own forum. Presumably they monitor it.

If it helps any (doubt it does, but....) VC doesn't seem to care much about any of its customers. They delivered a watch to the King of Thailand (richest of the royals these days), for his birthday no less, and the thing didn't even work. Maybe they are still busy fixing his piece, which is why they haven't gotten round to your screws. ;-)

Here's another link where you can find others moaning and groaning about their VC: Vacheron Constantin Discussion Forum: Search '' . Have you checked Timezone? I find it to be a much better resource than WUS for high-end stuff. Unfortunately, it's website design is a bit linear. (TimeZone)



Sassicaia said:


> I mentioned the chocolates because its an example of how they just dont care. Not check the expiry date? I mean the gift itself was pathetic considering I had to wait 3 months. The reason I found out they were expired was because the chocolates looked old and banged up.


OK, fine. Truthfully, someone buying a VC-any model getting upset over chocolates, expired, melted, or whatever else is surprising to me, but you're entitled to be as outraged as you want to be. They did send them to you.

For myself, I'd see the candy as nothing more than a gesture. I don't think it'd upset me if they were expired, assuming I even noticed that they were, because I'd already know, by the experience of seeking service, that the company is a mess administratively and process wise, with the thing that is their core business. I'd hardly foist upon them an expectation that they pay enough attention to notice if the chocolates expired. That just seems much like expecting that a dog will never bite; it's just an unrealistic expectation given the fact pattern to which you're already privy.

As I said, though, you are well within your rights to be incensed.



GETS said:


> Count me in to the 10% then. For a start off I complain like a 'mother'.....


I would too.



Galactic Sushiman said:


> Are you expecting me to come back to you with a world wide scientific study that provides the real reason people buy expensive watches?
> 
> Even if there was such a thing, and even with guaranteed anonymity, people would still not tell the truth so it would still be debatable whether those results are scientific and unbiased
> 
> Of course this is pure speculation on my side. But when you look at how much Rolex produces and sells every year just because they project status in more eyes than any other brand - and yes, this is a FACT  - I am sure I am not that far away from the truth.


LOL. I keep coming back to this thread because it is hilarious. (not the OP's plight, but the comments in the thread)

Well, as a matter of fact, yes. If you are going to cite a very specific statistic as you did, absolutely, if asked for one, I'd expect you to have something based in fact or empirical analysis to cite. Barring that, I would expect you (or anyone else) not offer baseless figures and measures that aren't at least qualified so it's clear that they represent only you own speculation. There's no paucity of information available on the WWW, and you could well have come across something the rest of have not.



TimelessFan said:


> This is baffling to me. Then why do they "flood" the market with more watches than there are demands?
> 
> PS I sent in one of my APs in for service two weeks ago (warranty expired). They called me back and told me $800 and it'll take, get this, SIXTEEN WEEKS (not days, WEEKS).
> 
> Anyone take their watch to a local/reputable watch shop to service/repair their timepiece?


I think the discussion I posted earlier about the grey market explains, in part, why the market is "flooded," if indeed it is. The makers really just want to have their cake and eat it to. It's basic selfishness, but it's also business. Makers want to lend their watch an element of prestige, so they have this network of ADs who are posh jewelry stores, single brand boutiques and posh watch stores. Most all of that is image oriented. The makers also know quite well that they can't possibly sell (at full MSRP) as many watches as they can make in a year. There aren't enough WISs in the world to make that happen. Most rich folks may well buy a pricey piece, but they aren't going to have 20 of them, not at $15K+. Sure, there are folks who will buy that many, but not enough folks.

The makers have seen what happens if they let ADs openly haggle down the price. The car industry is a fine example of what happens. Plus some ADs will have skilled negotiators, and some won't. The manufacturers don't even want to get into that mess so the official line is that ADs sell at one price. But the manufacturer requires the AD to sell a certain quota so that the maker can expect to get paid. Well the AD has to sell them to somebody. If there aren't enough basic consumers buying the thing, the AD has to find another customer. Enter the grey market.

Now what do you notice when you check a grey market website? You notice the price is listed. Now go to a great many high end websites and look for a price. In many cases, it's not there. Why not? I don't know exactly, but I have enough sense to know it's not for my benefit. (A guy here offers a reason. I think his reason is BS, but it's a reason)

Traditionally, when a store didn't list a price clearly in it's display case it was because it forced the consumer to interact with a sales person, thereby increasing the odds of making a sale. The advent of telephones and the internet, and just a general glut of information being available, has resulted in that opportunity basically being lost. Moreover, most salespeople have no idea how to motivate a telephone sale and most callers aren't going to be keen on the tactics one must employ to do so. Consumers expect to find the item and it's price quickly and be done. The grey market provides exactly that in the vast majority of cases.

So back to the manufacturers. They and the consumer are the beneficiaries of the grey market. The full price retailers are the losers. As long as that watch maker gets its money, it doesn't care who bought the watch or how, you and me via an AD or the grey market seller via an AD. Either way, the watch is a sold piece of inventory to the manufacturer.Dr. Accounts Receivable/Cash
Dr. Cost of Goods Sold
Cr. Finished Goods Inventory
Cr. Revenue​That sales done. Next customer, please.

You have to remember that the watch industry is only recently entering the wold of having to figure out how to operate as much more than a sole proprietorship. They are only of late leaning how to manage the entire span of their supply chain. Hell, I suspect a great many of them weren't exactly blessed with the best operations managers around. These were after all outfits made of folks who were essentially artists, sculptors of tiny bits of metal. Watchmakers, painters, sculptors, cabinetmakers, _et al_ are essentially the same breed of craftsmen. They are not business managers normally, although the ones who manage business well enough have made it to the 21st century. This is also why you see all the consolidation in the industry -- the real business management types see opportunity.

I believe that were Rolex not so dominant in the industry, it'd have long been folded into a conglomerate organization. It remains to be seen how long they remain independent. It could be quite a while though for they should be just raking in money as basically they have hundreds of models all sharing one movement and one basic case design. If Porsche have the laziest car design unit, Rolex has the laziest watch design unit. Essentially nothing's changed much for over 50 years. One can only surmise that Rolex have by now recovered and gained far more than they initially invested in infrastructure and R&D to develop the products they now sell/make. For them, unlike many other brands, the more watches the grey market sells, the better for it perpetuates their market position and makes it all the harder for others to approach them be it in sales or as a takeover target.

Rolex were rumored to have lost about $1 billion to Bernie Madoff. How many other high end watch companies could survive that (assuming it's true) and remain standing strong? Patek produces about 20K watches a year. Pick an average price point that suits you and you do the math. Double the production and try again and you'll then begin to get a sense of just how dominant Rolex really is. Then when most folks don't have the issues that the OP has identified with his VC, plus the watches can really take a beating, it's hard to see why many "typical Joes" would bother buying a great number of other upscale brands. They are the Lexus or Brooks Brothers of the watch world.

Here's some interesting reading about the industry. It seems very editorial in places, but it's written from an academic viewpoint of the industry, so well worth reading even if you don't agree with all the premises and conclusions. It's longer than my posts typically are, so be prepared: Time On-Line, The New Global Grey Market - TimeZone

All the best.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

tony20009 said:


> OK. Fair enough. I was just curious given what you'd said earlier. Have you shared your thoughts/problem here: http://www.thehourlounge.com. That is VC's own forum.
> 
> LOL. I keep coming back to this thread because it is hilarious. (not the OP's plight, but the comments in the thread)
> 
> Well, as a matter of fact, yes. If you are going to cite a very specific statistic as you did, absolutely, if asked for one, I'd expect you to have something based in fact or empirical analysis to cite. Barring that, I would expect you (or anyone else) not offer baseless figures and measures that aren't at least qualified so it's clear that they represent only you own speculation. There's no paucity of information available on the WWW, and you could well have come across something the rest of have not.


You're rather a walking encyclopedia, thx for comments/insights/info . . . .


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

tony20009 said:


> LOL. I keep coming back to this thread because it is hilarious. (not the OP's plight, but the comments in the thread)
> 
> Well, as a matter of fact, yes. If you are going to cite a very specific statistic as you did, absolutely, if asked for one, I'd expect you to have something based in fact or empirical analysis to cite. Barring that, I would expect you (or anyone else) not offer baseless figures and measures that aren't at least qualified so it's clear that they represent only you own speculation. There's no paucity of information available on the WWW, and you could well have come across something the rest of have not.


You are very funny indeed, did you really expect someone to be able to justify something as visibly silly as "90% of the buyers of expensive watches do so because of status'? Did you even read my answer where I prove that even if such data existed it would have been easily discarded as obviously biased? Do you realize how ridiculous all this sounds?

Please get down from your high horses and use your discernment to differentiate an obvious funny provocation to prove a point - we are on a forum - and scientific facts. Thx.


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## ImitationOfLife (Oct 15, 2010)

TimelessFan said:


> Anyone take their watch to a local/reputable watch shop to service/repair their timepiece?


Yes. I had an independent watchmaker service my PP because I like being able to communicate with the watchmaker instead of wondering what's going on. It also gave me the freedom to make a list of what I wanted done and have none of the funny business manufacturers insist is necessary, like replacing perfectly good, functional parts with fresh ones. I would have raised hell if a service center polished my watch, too.

I've never used a service center, and I don't intend to unless absolutely necessary.


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## lmcgbaj (Aug 7, 2012)

ImitationOfLife said:


> Yes. I had an independent watchmaker service my PP because I like being able to communicate with the watchmaker instead of wondering what's going on. It also gave me the freedom to make a list of what I wanted done and have none of the funny business manufacturers insist is necessary, like replacing perfectly good, functional parts with fresh ones. I would have raised hell if a service center polished my watch, too.
> 
> I've never used a service center, and I don't intend to unless absolutely necessary.


Interesting. I have not found a watchmaker to whom I would feel confident to give my high end pieces.

You must like and trust your watchmaker. I would really like to find a trusty competent local watchmaker but it has not happened yet.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Keep looking, it's like finding a good barber.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

It takes less time for a bad haircut to heal than getting a watch serviced. There are many more good barbers than watch makers



Watchbreath said:


> Keep looking, it's like finding a good barber.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:-! At this moment, I have both.


mark1958 said:


> It takes less time for a bad haircut to heal than getting a watch serviced. There are many more good barbers than watch makers


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## ImitationOfLife (Oct 15, 2010)

lmcgbaj said:


> Interesting. I have not found a watchmaker to whom I would feel confident to give my high end pieces.
> 
> You must like and trust your watchmaker. I would really like to find a trusty competent local watchmaker but it has not happened yet.


Yep, I trust him. He provides pictures of every step of the service in a document as well. It's really amazing.

He's not actually local to me. I still send my watches out, but that doesn't bother me.


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

Ok did someone check if the AD sent the watch on time?
Maybe they waited for another watch to cut the expences in both ways. Customs &shipping expences, usually they do it especially if not bought from them as they have nothing to loose.
I dont try to protect them by anyway just a notice...

br
emso

p.s: sent from my ****ty phone so sorry for typing mistakes


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

For people like me who is relatively new to mechanical watches, this video is incredibly insightful and explains why these watches take forever to service.

Patek Philippe Maintenance - YouTube

It looks so tedious...


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Yep, not a job for someone who likes to operate a jackhammer.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

shnjb said:


> It looks so tedious...


It is tedious. But every major watch brand has talented, skilled, and experienced watchmakers working for them. Yet, not all of them practice such a low level of customer service or ridiculously long wait times. Around 8 weeks is average. Perhaps a bit longer if it's a serious issue on a watch with quite a few complications.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> It is tedious. But every major watch brand has talented, skilled, and experienced watchmakers working for them. Yet, not all of them practice such a low level of customer service or ridiculously long wait times. Around 8 weeks is average. Perhaps a bit longer if it's a serious issue on a watch with quite a few complications.


I think it is expected that a VC watch takes more time to service than most of the "every major watch brand."


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

shnjb said:


> I think it is expected that a VC watch takes more time to service than most of the "every major watch brand."


I was referring to other, established, High-End brands as well. Not all of them offer migraine-inducing customer service with very long wait times.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> I was referring to other, established, High-End brands as well. Not all of them offer migraine-inducing customer service with very long wait times.


Really?
What is the average wait time for high-end watch brands?
Some numbers from experienced members who have serviced their Lange, PP, AP, Breguet, VC, etc would be very informative to this discsussion.

I've only serviced a G-shock and a Rolex from non authorized dealers so i wouldnt know


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## ImitationOfLife (Oct 15, 2010)

shnjb said:


> For people like me who is relatively new to mechanical watches, this video is incredibly insightful and explains why these watches take forever to service.
> 
> Patek Philippe Maintenance - YouTube
> 
> It looks so tedious...


Thanks for posting that. Enjoying it so far.


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## ImitationOfLife (Oct 15, 2010)

Okay, I'm impressed that PP makes it a point to say they won't polish the watch if the owner wishes to skip that part of the service. Very cool.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

shnjb said:


> Really?
> What is the average wait time for high-end watch brands?
> Some numbers from experienced members who have serviced their Lange, PP, AP, Breguet, VC, etc would be very informative to this discsussion.
> 
> I've only serviced a G-shock and a Rolex from non authorized dealers so i wouldnt know


I've had typical upkeep service take from three weeks to three months. The only difference is that when I submitted the watches, they told me how long it'd be and every time, I got the watch back sooner, sometimes a few days sooner (Rolex), sometimes as much as a week or two sooner (Breguet and Rolex) when I was given what seemed like a long time to me in the first place, so I really don't have much to gripe about.

I think for me if they manage my expectations correctly, I really don't care too much how long it takes. Then again, I always ask for a "not longer than" time period too. I've gotten callbacks saying this or that needed doing and it'll cost extra. That's okay by me because it tells me they are doing something besides letting my watch sit in a queue.

I had my Omega serviced at the in Shenzhen by "some guy" in a watch store to whom I was referred by one of my client's employees. He was very quick to turn it around -- four days -- and I haven't been able to discern any difference. He even said _bu hao isi_ for taking so long. _Mei wen ti_ I said. By far the least expensive and fasted service I've ever seen.

For those who can get to Shenzhen, if memory serves, it was in the Coco Park mall, on one of the upper levels -- 2nd? Facing the building from the front, it'd be almost in the back left corner of the mall, I want to say the store has a very prominent Vacheron display right up front and a fancy sunglasses boutique adjacent to them.

All the best.


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

Watchbreath said:


> Keep looking, it's like finding a good barber.





mark1958 said:


> It takes less time for a bad haircut to heal than getting a watch serviced. There are many more good barbers than watch makers


I've only found one decent barber in my life. He charged £8 for a cut. Every time was perfect. Guy knew what he was doing, and cared *every* *single* *time*. For £8.

[he was Turkish - is that relevant? Are Turks the Swiss of barbery?]


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> I've only found one decent barber in my life. He charged £8 for a cut. Every time was perfect. Guy knew what he was doing, and cared *every* *single* *time*. For £8.
> 
> [he was Turkish - is that relevant? Are Turks the Swiss of barbery?]


interesting. I feel the same way about my baber, and he too is Turkish. In fact, the entire shop is stated with all Turkish barbers except one, and I have used three of them, all great.

edit: and mine charges $10.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

|> Mine charges $25 and I give her a $5 tip and I'm happy to do it. I hate looking like I've been 
run over by a lawn mower.


Der Amfangreisemann said:


> I've only found one decent barber in my life. He charged £8 for a cut. Every time was perfect. Guy knew what he was doing, and cared *every* *single* *time*. For £8.
> 
> [he was Turkish - is that relevant? Are Turks the Swiss of barbery?]


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> I've only found one decent barber in my life. He charged £8 for a cut. Every time was perfect. Guy knew what he was doing, and cared *every* *single* *time*. For £8.
> 
> [he was Turkish - is that relevant? Are Turks the Swiss of barbery?]


No ... Depends entirely on the individual. Though if it were a cultural or racial thing, it would make it far easier to find a great barber. I found one, but he's not the one located one block down from me. I have to get in my car and drive to that shop. (Definitely worth it though.)


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## BusyTimmy (Jul 24, 2009)

rogerfromco said:


> That is bad CS. These are simple things and when they fail there, you have to wonder how they will perform when it comes time for service.
> 
> For me, Blancpain was a bust too. When they serviced my watch, they noted that the hands were scratched (not sure how) but the cost to replace was cheap so I said yes. They sent the watch back with completely different style of hands on it and said nothing about it! When I called, they said they were discontinued. I protested since the watch was less than 5 years old and amazingly, they found some. All in all, it was a 5 month process that left me far from satisfied with the company, but I still love the watch.


wow.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

BusyTimmy said:


> wow.


Note to self. Don't buy a blancpain.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

shnjb said:


> Note to self. Don't buy a blancpain.


uh, oh too late for me 'cause this is just a few days new, but I'm not returning it, at least not for the servicing risk . . . .


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Taking long or charging too much is one thing.
Claiming that they don't have parts because a model is discontinued is not acceptable on a supposed "heirloom" type of a watch.


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## monsieurxu (Jun 2, 2012)

shnjb said:


> Note to self. Don't buy a blancpain.


+1

Had a similar problem with my Fifty Fathoms. The thing literally fell apart, apparently this was widespread enough that they removed the rubber bezel in the next series.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

monsieurxu said:


> +1
> 
> Had a similar problem with my Fifty Fathoms. The thing literally fell apart, apparently this was widespread enough that they removed the rubber bezel in the next series.


Good to hear/read/know, my brand new current model FF's should hold up well then, hopefully . . . .


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## rogerfromco (Sep 15, 2010)

drhr said:


> Good to hear/read/know, my brand new current model FF's should hold up well then, hopefully . . . .


My BP experience was really due to poor QC IMHO. When the watch (Trilogy GMT) came back from the NJ Service Center, they sent it back with skeletonized hands.










When I called them on it, they said the original hands were discontinued and those were the correct replacement (total BS). In the end after lot of back and forth and an e-mail to Switzerland, I was told to send it back in and they would find some "similar hands". This is what they sent it back with...









and how it originally came from the factory...


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

Trying to work out why they keep wanting to take the hands off anyway. Other than it being an excuse to drive the cost up.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Poor QC, if I were to bring that up at that WIS luncheon I attended back in early 2006, that was hosted by BP. I 
would have been thrown out bodily. They really have a "God's gift attitude". Then again, so do most of the others.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

rogerfromco said:


> My BP experience was really due to poor QC IMHO. When the watch (Trilogy GMT) came back from the NJ Service Center, they sent it back with skeletonized hands.
> When I called them on it, they said the original hands were discontinued and those were the correct replacement (total BS). In the end after lot of back and forth and an e-mail to Switzerland, I was told to send it back in and they would find some "similar hands". This is what they sent it back with...
> and how it originally came from the factory...


Thx, appreciate the specific info, glad it turned out well, even with the hassle . . .


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Been sitting back and watching this thread develop. As a VC owner, including an Overseas, I'd likely be accused of bias but in fact have seen both the bad and good side of VC service. Like the OP, I've ranted and bellowed about shoddy work, especially when I had to send one piece back three times! Now I'm a bit more calm and try to connect directly with a person for any issues. Still, the current Overseas has a problem with the four screws that attach the bracelet/strap to the head; they occasionally fall out! This is usually from a lack of loctite on the screws; occasionally from the factory, sometimes after servicing, but mostly by the owner when changing between the available rubber or leather strap and steel bracelet. Owners also tend to mangle the slots with improper tools ;-) IMHO VC should provide a supply of extra screws, a small screwdriver, appropriate loctite and instructions with the purchase of this watch. Now, although I had yet to lose a screw, I was concerned and wanted spares too. An email to the NY boutique brought a very friendly reply and once it was discovered we would both be at SIHH, the manager agreed to meet for a direct handover. Once in Geneva, not only did I receive a set of screws from the NY staffer, but another gentleman from the factory service department approached with an envelope of even more screws, relating that he'd received the request from NY but couldn't judge which model Overseas I had so to be sure he brought the other size as well. I think I have a lifetime supply now!

It seems to me the quality standards organizations such as the Hallmark of Geneva, Fleurier Quality Foundation, and even the in-house Patek Seal, should mandate that participating brands disclose a standardized set of service-related performance metrics so customers can judge this very important aspect of "quality" so often overlooked in the excitement of purchasing.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

So I bought a blancpain complete calendar just over a month ago across the border. I noticed that the date hand indicator was a little misaligned. I contacted my the place i got it from in LA,US and he said the waiting time for a warranty repair is around 1 month. Not bad i figured. So, for convenience, i took it to Royal De Versailles in Toronto and with full confidence (noticed pretty hot saleswomen as well;-)) walked to the service booth. I explained the problem and the lady grabbed a piece of paper, looked through it and said "it'll take 4 to 6 months". My face from  --->:-| ---->:think: ----->o|!!! Having difficulty taking that in...i was hoping she would stress how it might take less than that...she only stressed it might take longer! Dang!

I had no choice and i figured since i spent alot on this piece i would want it to be perfect. I dont want to wait five years until servicing and then having to pay out of pocket. Walking out of the place my wrists felt naked...
I am having mixed feelings of shock, anger and straight out sadness...

*Copied from a thread i just started https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/warranty-service-wait-time-shock-932353.html
Moderator feel free to delete the thread unless you think it can be its own topic


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

AbuKalb93 said:


> So I bought a blancpain complete calendar just over a month ago across the border. I noticed that the date hand indicator was a little misaligned.


List price: $29K
Time spent checking over watch pre-dispatch: not enough


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> List price: $29K
> Time spent checking over watch pre-dispatch: not enough


Stainless Steel for $15K. It was quite obvious. Im not sure how they dont notice, especially since they probably check at least 2-3 of these a day


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

AbuKalb93 said:


> Stainless Steel for $15K. It was quite obvious. I'm not sure how they don't notice, especially since they probably check at least 2-3 of these a day


They likely did notice ... They just didn't care.

Customer who buys it, might be willing to live with it. If not, well; they'll deal with the issue _then_.


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

Monocrom said:


> They likely did notice ... They just didn't care.
> 
> Customer who buys it, might be willing to live with it. If not, well; they'll deal with the issue _then_.


Guess thats the last Blancpain i buy then!


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## Alex Ghotbi (Oct 24, 2013)

Dear all,

I'm stepping here as Vacheron Constantin Community Manager and have a question regarding these issues as they were brought to my attention in March (long delay in treating the issue, chocolates etc..) and I had thought all had been resolved.

Sassicaia please advise as if this is still outstanding and if it is I will see what can be done as obviously you have been waiting for a long time for these screws


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping here as Vacheron Constantin Community Manager and have a question regarding these issues as they were brought to my attention in March (long delay in treating the issue, chocolates etc..) and I had thought all had been resolved.
> 
> Sassicaia please advise as if this is still outstanding and if it is I will see what can be done as obviously you have been waiting for a long time for these screws


Yihaa! VC has a community manager! and being VC, it takes only 9 pages of thread to have an answer 

The fact that you chose an iconic symbol of the mafia as an avatar is a very... interesting message  (well, tbh, the simple fact that the VC CM does not have a WUS account is quite crazy to me ).

Still, now that I am done with the crappy jokes, 'better late than never', good luck sorting out this situation Alex!


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping here as Vacheron Constantin Community Manager and have a question regarding these issues as they were brought to my attention in March (long delay in treating the issue, chocolates etc..) and I had thought all had been resolved.
> 
> Sassicaia please advise as if this is still outstanding and if it is I will see what can be done as obviously you have been waiting for a long time for these screws


Is nice to see you here Alex, I seen your posts in the hour longue and purist (I am member as well). I hope everything gets resolved with or without chocolates . Hopefully I don't need VC CS for mine until is due.:-!


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping here as Vacheron Constantin Community Manager and have a question regarding these issues


Hey Alex  Any response to the suggestion that the Hallmark of Geneva, et al, include service standards as part of their "quality" measures?


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## tdk (Oct 21, 2008)

Now we only need a Blancpain Community Manager to chime in. No I 'm serious. I have a Blancpain and want someones contact info in case I need it.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Yep, as usual there's three sides to every story.


tdk said:


> Now we only need a Blancpain Community Manager to chime in. No I 'm serious. I have a Blancpain and want someones contact info in case I need it.


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## Alex Ghotbi (Oct 24, 2013)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> Yihaa! VC has a community manager! and being VC, it takes only 9 pages of thread to have an answer
> 
> The fact that you chose an iconic symbol of the mafia as an avatar is a very... interesting message  (well, tbh, the simple fact that the VC CM does not have a WUS account is quite crazy to me ).
> 
> Still, now that I am done with the crappy jokes, 'better late than never', good luck sorting out this situation Alex!


Oh the avatar is one I've been using for the past 15 years or so on different fora and way before I joined VC so nothing to do with this situation


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## Alex Ghotbi (Oct 24, 2013)

heuerolexomega said:


> Is nice to see you here Alex, I seen your posts in the hour longue and purist (I am member as well). I hope everything gets resolved with or without chocolates . Hopefully I don't need VC CS for mine until is due.:-!


Thanks for the welcome message Jorge


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Oh the avatar is one I've been using for the past 15 years or so on different fora and way before I joined VC so nothing to do with this situation


Well, as you introduced yourself as the VC CM one would expect that you do NOT use your historical avatar, as it represent Alex G. (a fantastic guy I am sure) but not your official role 

Still, it's really a detail and very unimportant compared to what people are debating in this thread.

Thank you for showing up and trying to solve an issue, it shows how serious VC is about their customer, let's make sure this is followed by actions in the near future.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Alex Ghotbi (Oct 24, 2013)

Tick Talk said:


> Hey Alex  Any response to the suggestion that the Hallmark of Geneva, et al, include service standards as part of their "quality" measures?


Something which would need to be suggested to the Geneva authorities to whom the Hallmark depends on, however what criteria would you use to rate these service standards?


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## rogerfromco (Sep 15, 2010)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Something which would need to be suggested to the Geneva authorities to whom the Hallmark depends on, however what criteria would you use to rate these service standards?


I can think of a few that any service organization should be tracking:

1) Response time to customer inquires (how long does it take VC to provide answers to customers?)
2) Time required to provide customer service quotation once product is received
3) % of on-time completion (did you finish on or ahead of the schedule given to the client)
4) % of re-work (what % of watches submitted for service come back in for re-work that was not done properly the first time?)
5) Post-service customer satisfaction (using a survey questionnaire, do the customers feel they received fair, honest and competent service)


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Something which would need to be suggested to the Geneva authorities to whom the Hallmark depends on, however what criteria would you use to rate these service standards?


Yes, that would be an interesting exercise. I'm sure the collector community could make suggestions, but the participating brands would have to agree on a few key ones that would have validity for both buyers and sellers. Would you be able to share what VC currently uses to measure the effectiveness and efficiency of their Service department?

My suggestion would begin with the initial failure rate of any particular "certified" model, which speaks to quality of design, construction and assembly. Add some measures on the repair process itself; how fast does each level of the process occur (diagnosis/estimate/work), at what cost in relation to the initial price of the watch, how reliable is the repair (warranty period), what avenues are available if the customer isn't satisfied (mediation process), at what point is a defective watch simply replaced rather than repaired to avoid repeated returns, when/if a loaner timepiece should be issued, etc. There are so many angles and I would anticipate a great deal of study would be involved before a workable set of service standards was agreed to, but the key outcome is to ensure the timepiece survives it's new warranty or service warranty period in functional condition without imposing any hardships upon the purchaser due to failures.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

2.5) Length of line in front of customer.


rogerfromco said:


> I can think of a few that any service organization should be tracking:
> 
> 1) Response time to customer inquires (how long does it take VC to provide answers to customers?)
> 2) Time required to provide customer service quotation once product is received
> ...


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

Since Vacheron Constantin boutiques have watchmakers on site, does this mean that if one buys a VC from a VC boutique then one will have a more straightforward time with servicing etc?


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## Alex Ghotbi (Oct 24, 2013)

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> Since Vacheron Constantin boutiques have watchmakers on site, does this mean that if one buys a VC from a VC boutique then one will have a more straightforward time with servicing etc?


This effectively could mean a shorter turn around time (which in average is currently 2 months for an uncomplicated piece). However, complicated and vintage pieces are sent back to Geneva


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> This effectively could mean a shorter turn around time (which in average is currently 2 months for an uncomplicated piece). However, complicated and vintage pieces are sent back to Geneva


So imagine say: the Patrinomy Contemporaine bought from your Old Bond Street boutique in London and taken there for a totally standard service..... would that be done in situ? How do you imagine that would affect turn around time?


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Tick Talk said:


> Yes, that would be an interesting exercise. I'm sure the collector community could make suggestions, but the participating brands would have to agree on a few key ones that would have validity for both buyers and sellers. Would you be able to share what VC currently uses to measure the effectiveness and efficiency of their Service department?
> 
> My suggestion would begin with the initial failure rate of any particular "certified" model, which speaks to quality of design, construction and assembly. Add some measures on the repair process itself; how fast does each level of the process occur (diagnosis/estimate/work), at what cost in relation to the initial price of the watch, how reliable is the repair (warranty period), what avenues are available if the customer isn't satisfied (mediation process), at what point is a defective watch simply replaced rather than repaired to avoid repeated returns, when/if a loaner timepiece should be issued, etc. There are so many angles and I would anticipate a great deal of study would be involved before a workable set of service standards was agreed to, but the key outcome is to ensure the timepiece survives it's new warranty or service warranty period in functional condition without imposing any hardships upon the purchaser due to failures.


Everything you outlined could be summarized with the words ... "Excellent customer service."

It is both rather unfortunate and telling that _Excellent customer service_ needs to be broken down in detail for *any* watch brand recognized as a High-End one.


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## Der Amf (Sep 5, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> Everything you outlined could be summarized with the words ... "Excellent customer service."
> 
> It is both rather unfortunate and telling that _Excellent customer service_ needs to be broken down in detail for *any* watch brand recognized as a High-End one.


As customers we're not so much interested in the stats of customer experience as the our own individual experience. Purchasing from any serious luxury watch manufacturer we should be able to expect excellent customer service, without any worry or doubt that we won't receive it. The best way for a company larger than a handful of employees to guarantee ECS is for them to build incentives in for themselves to acheive it.

Here is a suggestion for what constitutes ECS:

no watch will ever leave an AD with a single visible flaw.
a standard service done within five years of purchase is guaranteed to be completed with, say, eight weeks
a standard service done for a watch bought and then returned to a brands own boutique for servicing to be completed within a month
any further repair job to be given, after assessment a guaranteed time period for completion. This assessment to be made within four weeks of watch being dispatched to Switzerland, to within two weeks of being taken to the boutique

The compensation for missing these standards should be high:

if an watch leaves an AD with a visible flaw, immediate 20% refund; if a watch leaves a boutique with a visible flaw, immediate 40% refund
for each week or part of a week delay in service: 25% refund on the service charge
for each week or part of a week delay in service from a boutique: 50% refund on the service charge
for any repair job that proves to be more complicated than initially assessed: no charge for the further work or parts

However this company achieves this:

all ADs have a member of staff qualified to look over every watch as it arrives in stock. In a boutique _all _staff should be able to do this: at the moment of sale, the salesperson should repeat this, in front of the customer, with a checklist: hands, indices, face etc
the company should be aiming for all watches to be serviced within six weeks. Servicing teams should receive a bonus for each watch serviced within six weeks. For each watch serviced in over eight weeks a penalty to be deducted from existing accumulated bonus (bonuses to be assessed and paid out quarterly)
boutiques should be aiming to service watches within a week. The refunds to come out of the boutiques pool of sales commission
a bonus scheme for those assessing work needed, with reward for every accurate assessment

Throughout repair and servicing process, an automated system should be in place to inform by email the stage that watch has reached: dispatch to Switzerland, arrival in Switzerland, assessment, work, watch approved for return to customer, watch dispatched to AD/customer, arrival at AD for collection. When the watch's transit is afflicted by things beyond the company's control then they will already be showing that it was down to forces beyond their control.


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## Monocrom (Nov 11, 2010)

Excellent post. Once again, those are all things that a recognized High-End brand such as VC should be completely aware of on its own. 

Seriously ... Pointing out examples of excellent customer service to a High-End brand is like teaching a dolphin how to swim. Some things, certain "entities" should just already know how to do. You don't need to teach a beaver how to build a dam. You don't need to teach a puppy how to be playful. You don't need to teach a bird how to fly.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Der Amfangreisemann said:


> As customers we're not so much interested in the stats of customer experience as the our own individual experience. Purchasing from any serious luxury watch manufacturer we should be able to expect excellent customer service, without any worry or doubt that we won't receive it. The best way for a company larger than a handful of employees to guarantee ECS is for them to build incentives in for themselves to acheive it.
> 
> Here is a suggestion for what constitutes ECS:
> 
> ...


I like the theme of your ideas. The principles they embody are consistent with business management theory. As a practical matter, I think the concept is implementable, but the specific suggestions I fear might well bankrupt most watch companies. I say that because several of your suggestions require significant HR policy changes that will support aligning customer service objectives with employee compensation and performance evaluation. In principle a very good thing for the employees who have a customer service role.

Anytime a company is going through major HR-related policy changes, there are a swarm of things that have to be considered, and even if the company adopts them, the change can only be thought of as business transformation. On the spectrum of change to the way a business functions, transformational change is the most dramatic, expensive and complex. Even large companies that have the money to do it, find it almost impossible. The only place I've seen such sweeping changes actually be possible to implement is in China where the labor supply is so much greater than the jobs available that employees will put up with it more so than in the US or Western Europe.

Aligning business operations and HR policy is in most companies handled largely through the subjective element of employee performance evaluations. Under such auspices, an employee can be "dinged" for causing a negative impact on overall performance of a unit. For example, even if an employee, perhaps a movement worker of some sort, lets an existing customer's movement needing re-oiling "sit" for so long that it causes an inordinate delay in getting the watch back to the customer. That very same employee could be given a lower year end performance rating than a peer who "cranks through tasks" a bit slower, but who never caused a delay to an overall process.

The specific tactics you cite above, though innovative, are likely quite hard to implement in the high end, in-house segment of the watch industry because it relies, particularly in smaller _maisons_, on skilled craftsmen. Not just anybody can do certain things. As a result, implementing some of your tactics may well lead to a shutdown in production and service if they are enforced. If they are not enforced for some to whom they apply and are for others, creates employee morale issues. Yes, the company can create additional classes of employees, but then that just adds to the complexity factor, especially when there are labor laws and such with which the company has to comply. Lastly, there's the systems -- human or technology -- that would be needed to support any such policies. Those systems need to be designed and incorporated into the business process in an efficient way. That's not at all difficult, especially if technology is to be used, but it can be expensive.

Business transformation is very, very expensive. Most companies lack the internal resources as well as internal and cultural objectivity to do such a thing on their own. As a result, they have to engage consultants to help do it. That's expensive, especially the type of consultants that are needed for any non-technology-specific services, and plenty of those will be needed in the earlier phases of the endeavor. In addition to the cash costs, such projects effect varying degrees of productivity slowdowns over their lifetime. Large companies can typically mitigate or absorb the cost of an operational slowdown, but smaller ones like watch companies have a much harder time doing so, so much harder that it could have a significant, negative affect on their earnings. If that happens, there become a host of other issues they must manage internally. From an external perspective, one issue is their ability to continue as an independent company, or will they become a takeover target?

So, having said I like the spirit of your ideas, but not the practicality of them, what would I suggest instead? Well, one thing I'd suggest is that these companies do a much better job of managing expectations. The companies know what they can accomplish re: service timelines. So, simply communicating accurate and realistic timelines to customers would go a long way toward improving things. I think this is good for several reasons:

It establishes a standard to which the employees should be able perform because it's not really different than what they are already doing. The initial change impact is pretty much non-existent, yet as the standard moves higher, the impact is kept minimal 
The standard it creates can be used as a tool to look for subsequent opportunities for process improvement if it's found, for example, that sales are being lost to close competitors because they are offering and meeting shorter service timelines. 
It establishes a relationship of integrity with customers, who may not like that "it takes so long" but at least they know what to expect and will deal with it. And as long as one delivers on time, most customers will be quite content when all is said and done. 
Another suggestion is to produce the lower price point products using machinery and reserve for items having much lower sales volume the hand made process. This may already be how they do it, I don't know. I do know that one wants the fastest possible build and service process for the highest volume pieces because the folks who spend $15K-$30K are, for some reason, guaranteed to be fussier about "how long it takes" than will customers who buy $50K+ pieces. I don't know why that is, but I know from reading the complaints here and in other places that it's so. I also know it because I'd be ticked if Tag took forever on my Aquaracer, but I could care less what time window I get from JLC or PP.

Well, that's enough "free consulting." As I think I said earlier, I like your post for it's reasonableness, completeness of thought, quality of substance and for it's themes. I also like that you presented a positive approach, showing that you want to be part of the solution rather than just complaining about the problem.

All the best.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

Great discussion indeed! It is interesting to observe the range of strategic thought that occurs; some look in the rear-view mirror to note what should or should not have been done in the past to avoid the current state, others look forward from the present to speculate how the current trajectory can be altered for incremental improvements. I prefer to look from the desired future backwards and firmly believe that all can be tied together with proper outcome measures which firstly provide the visionary guidance as to why things should done a new way (thus avoiding the need to repeatedly examine the past for such reference), and provide a freedom of thinking without being blinkered by existing practices so that old orthodoxies are challenged and new questions asked.

This was the basis of my earlier suggestion that quality assurance organizations such as the Seal of Geneva could realistically apply a key outcome measure that each "certified" timepiece is required to pass it's new warranty or service warranty period in functional condition without imposing any hardships upon the purchaser due to failures not attributed to negligence. The quality assurance organization need not consider how each manufacture goes about achieving this goal, only that they do. Of course, the Seal would act as a clearing house of best practices, and as mediator/arbitrator between manufacturer and customer.

Is this likely to happen? Well, looking in the rear-view mirror myself; I see organizations like COSC that have put themselves forward as independent quality assurance organizations but IMHO, rather than create improvements across the industry, have instead reduced customer expectations to meet the lowest common denominator :-( The real discipline will have to come from the brands themselves not to game their oversight organization. LOL, when the "new" Seal of Geneva was first proposed I noted their governance was dominated by industry insiders with a complete lack of consumer advocates - same with the Patek Seal. And neither create an annual report to the public...


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

Alex Ghotbi said:


> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping here as Vacheron Constantin Community Manager and have a question regarding these issues as they were brought to my attention in March (long delay in treating the issue, chocolates etc..) and I had thought all had been resolved.
> 
> Sassicaia please advise as if this is still outstanding and if it is I will see what can be done as obviously you have been waiting for a long time for these screws


Hi Alex,
I must say that you personally were great to deal with. As far as the previous issues were concerned (chocolates, communication on arrival date, poor follow up, and a total disregard from VC to speak directly) those issues are behind me (although obviously not forgotten). I had no intention of rehashing those issues, and only started this thread on a new issue related to getting replacement screws that fell out of the back of my VC OS. The past issues seemed to re service since the discussion of customer service and VC become more robust in this thread. I requested the screws in July and have yet to receive them. 3 months to put something in an envelop is inexcusable.

Given the amount of issues I experienced, and the fact it happened on different occasions about unrelated problems I cant be the only one who has had poor experience with service. Of all the other high end products I purchase and get serviced i.e. cars, clothing, furniture etc Never have I experienced delays and issues even close to what I have experienced with VC. Not from any other company, not in any other industry. Keep in mind my only interaction with VC has been to buy a watch, and get 3 replacement screws. Two things you would consider to be simple, yet I have experienced a laundry list of problems.

To answer your question more directly. Yes, the previous issues are behind me. I am still waiting on 3 replacement screws. Last week I was forced to send an email voicing my frustration. Until then I only asked and sent polite follow up requests. Tuesday last week i was told "they are being sent and willl arrive wednesday this week (why not overnight at this point?)". This tells me its not that they didnt have the screws, or wouldnt/couldnt send them its that they simply we not on the ball enough to fulfil a simple request to someone that owns one of their watches.

Someone previously mentioned that there should be a "yelp" type review system for this industry. I think thats a great idea. Part of the experience of owning a watch is also the interaction the owner has with the source of it. Customer service should be as meticulous as the timepiece itself.

While I appreciate your offer at this point nothing needs to be done unless another month goes by and still the screws dont show up.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

Sassicaia said:


> Hi Alex, I had no intention of rehashing those issues, and only started this *threat* on a new issue related to getting replacement screws that feel out of the back of my VC OS. They seemed to re service since the discussion of customer service and VC become more robust in this thread. I requested the screws in July and have yet to receive them. 3 months to put something in an envelop is inexcusable.
> .


Given your experience, I'm sure it wouldn't be inappropriate and perhaps called for, but hope you meant *thread *as did have a double take . . .


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> Someone previously mentioned that there should be a "yelp" type review system for this industry. I think thats a great idea.


I second that, that would be great so we can have a better idea of what are we dealing with before buying.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

drhr said:


> Given your experience, I'm sure it wouldn't be inappropriate and perhaps called for, but hope you meant *thread *as did have a double take . . .


 thanks...yes that was a typo and I corrected it.


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## jpohn (Jun 19, 2009)

Great discussion so far...and an important one to have! A servicing database would be an asset for watch collectors, although it would take a long while to gather statistically-significant results.

First, there is the issue of first-time buyer expectations. There is no such thing as the Watch Consumer Reports and very few dealers bother to condition their clients before their first impulse purchase. So disappointment is inevitable when the milestone mechanical watch requires its first servicing.

Some of the things I have learned over time:

The more complicated the watch, the less reliable it ought to be.
The more exclusive the movement, the less reliable it ought to be.
The more exclusive the movement, the longer it will take to service it.

All of this leads to the most important lesson: The more expensive the watch, the less reliable it will be and the longer it will take to get it fixed.

Once the client becomes conditioned to the long service times, there is still the issue of inconsistent communication and inconsistent results. Before addressing the quality of the work done, overall client satisfaction could be improved through better communication between the service departments and the client. There is nothing worse than getting a watch back after two months and discovering that the original problem was not properly addressed. It has happened to me and others I know, so I imagine it is a fairly common occurance with some brands (*cough* LVMH). I'm often left wondering where the breakdown in communication occurred. Was the service department made aware of my specific issues? If so, did they pass along these issues to the watchmaker assigned to the servicing? Did the department ensure these specific issues were addressed before the watch was shipped back to the client?

When a problem requires multiple trips to the service center, the client may wonder if the service department is cutting corners to improve turnover time and reduce servicing costs to a price point - a price point which is still very high. What happens when it costs a service department $800 to thoroughly service and clean a watch and the department cuts corners to reduce the client's bill to $500? Everybody lands up pissed off. I wonder how often this happens.

Finally, I wish deficient brands would copy the best practices of their competitors. Return the replaced parts in a little baggie. Besides being fun to play with, they provide the client with visual proof that the movement was taken apart and thoroughly serviced. Proper documentation of the servicing - timing tests and water resistance tests - are also greatly appreciated. They help the client quantify the amount of time and effort undertaken to service the watch.

Of course, a Christmas card and/or a delicious box of chocolates can be the cherry on top...when everything else goes right.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

I think it's been 2-3 times that I see a thread of customer service and I think Vacheron it's in at least 2 of them. But I think VC is not too different from others so I suspect there are other factors that I can't point at the moment.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

WOW...what a difference nine pages of invective make. Are we, as a society (not only WUS society) at the point where it really takes violent protest for anyone to bother to address with integrity the concerns of persons feeling ignored or maligned by the perfunctory behavior of another, be it an entity, group or individual? It's sad, to me at least, that after having in modern times seen any number of non-violent protest movements -- the Montgomery, AL Bus Boycot, March on Washington, South African National Day of Protest, the Salt March -- it is yet only after aping the model given by violence -- Boston Tea Party, the Storming of the Bastille, Act-Up, any number of acts we declare "acts of terrorism."

Though the gravity of the OP's VC watch screws lacks the scale and significance of any of the events I cited, the contrast in tone between the sentiment he expressed in his first post (and several following it) and those of of his last one (as I write this) seem fitting illustration the dichotomy of I'm highlighting. It's hardly the first time someone chose to aggressive/offensive/combative/negativistic tactics to toll their tribulation, but would not it be wonderful were it the last? Is yelling the only way to be heard wether or not life, livelhood and limb are at stake?



Sassicaia said:


> [HR][/HR]Im in total disbelief about how crappy the attention and service VC offers their "customers". Its seriously at a level that is shocking. From giving me false information for how long my initial wait would be when I bought my VC overseas, to sending me expired chocolates as a "sorry" to now having waited over 3 MONTHS for them to do something as simple as send me 3 screws to replace ones that simply feel out. Serious 3 months to not provide any service on my watch, but rather just have to put 3 screws in an envelope and put them in the mail.
> 
> How can a brand like this stay in business this long with service levels equal to the government.
> 
> ...





Sassicaia said:


> ...Keep in mind my only interaction with VC has been to buy a watch, and get 3 replacement screws. Two things you would consider to be simple, yet I have experienced a laundry list of problems.
> 
> ...I am still waiting on 3 replacement screws. Last week I was forced to send an email voicing my frustration. Until then I only asked and sent polite follow up requests. Tuesday last week i was told "they are being sent and willl arrive wednesday this week (why not overnight at this point?)". This tells me its not that they didnt have the screws, or wouldnt/couldnt send them its that they simply we not on the ball enough to fulfil a simple request to someone that owns one of their watches.
> 
> ...


From my first post in this thread, I have been in agreement with the OP about his assertions and right to indignation over how VC has handled the matter. I remain in accord with him in that regard. It's not his fault the screws fell out of the watch and he couldn't recover them. Inasmuch as the OP had taken a proactive role in securing a timely solution to the screw matter, it seems all the more plain that a simple response from VC following his first attempt to reach out to them could have prevented a lot of hard feeling and harsh comments. I can only wonder if had VC responded early on to openly admit they didn't have extra screws around and would have to order some from a supplier, or make them, or whatever how the OP may have reacted. For all the greatness they muster to create a time piece, little of it appears once the sale is made.

In closing, it may be worth noting that VC isn't alone in having pitiful customer services processes. The Escort radar detector company is, IMO, worse. If you call their sales line, you'll be on hold for hardly 20 seconds. If you call their customer support number, 20 minutes or more is the norm. I've seen better response times from the IRS during tax season and the DMV at the end of the month. With both companies, one can only wonder if they actually care about much besides their high-end profit margins.


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## jpohn (Jun 19, 2009)

tony20009 said:


> I can only wonder if had VC responded early on to openly admit they didn't have extra screws around and would have to order some from a supplier, or make them, or whatever how the OP may have reacted. For all the greatness they muster to create a time piece, little of it appears once the sale is made.


From what little I've pieced together, the servicing of the watches generates little to no profit compared to the sales. The other issue is that reliability and maintenance costs are not major considerations in the average purchasing decision, unless the watches are really, really unreliable. I think it is impossible to avoid the case of the fussy high end watch - if it's handmade in small batches and it's complicated, chances are something will eventually go wrong. What can be avoided is poor communication from the service centers and mediocre repair work. The number of ways we can communicate with one another is nearly infinite nowadays, so there is no reason to keep clients in the dark during the servicing process.

Many brands provide excellent service and many brands provide unsatisfactory service. Some brands set themselves up for customer service showdowns, producing watches with ceramic cases that cost thousands to repair if the watch is dropped. These issues are seldom discussed at the point of purchase - many considering ceramic watches would run away at the thought of a $4000 ....... floor accident - so escalation after the fact will continue to be an efficient and effective tactic.

If brands were ranked every year based on their ability to provide affordable and efficient aftermarket service, the situation would improve drastically. For now, brands continue to be ranked exclusively on prestige, design, branding and finishing - with bonus points for a good background story, so that is where the bulk of the investment goes. We should do a better job of documenting the brands that do aftermarket service well and those who fail miserably - then we'd see improvement.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

jpohn said:


> ...
> 
> *If brands were ranked every year based on their ability to provide affordable and efficient aftermarket service, the situation would improve drastically. For now, brands continue to be ranked exclusively on prestige, design, branding and finishing* - with bonus points for a good background story, so that is where the bulk of the investment goes. We should do a better job of documenting the brands that do aftermarket service well and those who fail miserably - then we'd see improvement.


Your's is an excellent idea.

The management shortcoming -- relying on those characteristics in isolation rather than in tandem with first class management practices -- is not uncommon for companies and industries where family ownership and prestige are common.


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## Tick Talk (May 14, 2010)

tony20009 said:


> WOW...what a difference nine pages of invective make. Are we, as a society (not only WUS society) at the point where it really takes violent protest for anyone to bother to address with integrity the concerns of persons feeling ignored or maligned by the perfunctory behavior of another, be it an entity, group or individual? It's sad, to me at least, that after having in modern times seen any number of non-violent protest movements -- the Montgomery, AL Bus Boycot, March on Washington, South African National Day of Protest, the Salt March -- it is yet only after aping the model given by violence -- Boston Tea Party, the Storming of the Bastille, Act-Up, any number of acts we declare "acts of terrorism."
> 
> Though the gravity of the OP's VC watch screws lacks scale and significance of any of the events I cited, the contrast in tone between the sentiment he expressed in his first post )and several following it) and those of of his last one (as I write this) seem fitting illustration of the dichotomy of I'm highlighting. It's hardly the first time someone chose to be aggressive/offensive/combative/negativistic tactics to toll their tribulation, but would not it be wonderful were it the last?


A stirring monologue but unfortunately too much for me to follow... although the OP began in a rather distasteful manner, most of the following participants have recognized this important issue was worthy of more rational discussion, yours included. Let's keep that going!

A couple of thoughts come to mind...as part of the Richemont group, I wonder if the still-secret internal standards of after-sales service are homogeneous across their brands? When do the central bean-counters decide that profits can be enhanced by increasing quality and service or increasing marketing? Richemont calls themselves a "Luxury Holding Company", as they recognize that status is their actual deliverable and the products are simply the tangibles used to provide this outcome to the consumer.

I also resent the business model followed by corporations that separates sales and service into competing profit centers. This is their internal construct used to justify why one hand (sales profits) cannot/will not wash the other (after-sales service); simply a self-justifying excuse to disregard the needs of the customer. Time to revolt, march in the streets, storm the walls! Ooops, got carried away there


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Tick Talk said:


> A stirring monologue but unfortunately too much for me to follow... although the OP began in a rather distasteful manner, most of the following participants have recognized this important issue was worthy of more rational discussion, yours included. Let's keep that going!
> 
> A couple of thoughts come to mind...as part of the Richemont group, I wonder if the still-secret internal standards of after-sales service are homogeneous across their brands? *When do the central bean-counters decide that profits can be enhanced by increasing quality and service or increasing marketing?* Richemont calls themselves a "Luxury Holding Company", as *they recognize that status is their actual deliverable* and the products are simply the tangibles used to provide this outcome to the consumer.
> 
> I also resent *the business model followed by corporations that separates sales and service into competing profit centers*. This is their internal construct used to justify why one hand (sales profits) cannot/will not wash the other (after-sales service); simply a self-justifying excuse to disregard the needs of the customer. Time to revolt, march in the streets, storm the walls! Ooops, got carried away there


You offer some thought provoking ideas. My comments about them may seem like I refuting or criticizing them. I'm not; I'm just offering a point of view and continuing the discussion.

Marketing vs Service
Companies that see service as an element of the order-to-cash business process don't structure their service and sales units as you described. However, as I have said several times before, if the entity organized itself along the tradition model of some 30 years ago, it'll take quite a lot of resources to restructure. Yes, it's best practice to use the integrated business process model, and there are tons of systems that make that integration possible, but it's all but impossible to do so using systems that don't support that approach. Nigh impossible not because it cannot be done manually and with spreadsheets and whatnot, but because the quantity of human resources and time spend tracking the relevant data is too costly in terms of salaries as well as time, the last of which often more important than the salary cost.

It is common to see sales and service distinguished to some degree, but more for overall internal budget measurement and performance target measurement than anything else. The VP Sales and VP Service (or whatever the titles are assigned to those two roles) have to coordinate their operations just as sales must coordinate with the manufacturing and procurement units. It's easy for anyone to say that, but accomplishing it is tantamount to reaching Everest's summit alive.

Many Fortune 500 manufacturers have made good headway toward achieving the goal, but few have achieved it completely. In many cases, but for their size and ability to absorb costs, getting there might have bankrupted them. While they are on the path toward achieving an fully integrated set of business processes, the "back office" overhead costs can be staggeringly high. That's the trade off for having better access to timely information. If the keep at it, when they finally do get to the nirvana of full integration, the overhead costs get down to the bare minimum and the information access is at its maximum.

Status as a Deliverable
I can see why the may have that view. Taking that view, however, necessarily must put marketing above other business units in priority. It's a high risk strategy, but it's also a high profit one. In the short run, it may not be a bad approach for it'll garner quick, copious revenues/margins. The trick is to balance selling the illusion of status with the reality of the selling something from which customers demand a level of performance. Cadillac used to sell "status" and they got so arrogant about it that they produced the Cimmaron (a Chevy with a Caddy label). Then they began to compete on price rather than the merit of the product. You see where it got them, though they are now recovering from those mistakes as the ATS they now offer shows.

"Status" cannot be a long term, ongoing deliverable because at some point value for dollar spent comes into the equation. Typical consumers who "stretch" to buy the status product will revolt if the product doesn't live up to the hype. Wealthy customers don't buy them to garner status because they had that without the product; it's their purchases that support the product's status image not the other way round. All the seller can do is put out uppity marketing campaigns and make the product be pricey, the latter of which will yield exclusivity only because of the economic realities most folks face. (I'm hoping that's enough to see where I'm going. I'm making a concerted effort to make my posts shorter as folks have said they are too long.)

All the best.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

Funny, but on friday I returned from a trip to notice a screw/pin was missing from a Tumi carry on bag. The bag is 3 years old, and no longer produced. I called Tumi customer service to see if they would have this obscure piece. I received a shipping confirmation for the piece from them this morning.

Thats how VC should handle things.

Tumi didnt make any money of this, its from a product that has been discontinued and i was fully expecting to be out of luck. 2 days later the issue is resolved.


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## GETS (Dec 8, 2011)

Sassicaia said:


> Funny, but on friday I returned from a trip to notice a screw/pin was missing from a Tumi carry on bag. The bag is 3 years old, and no longer produced. I called Tumi customer service to see if they would have this obscure piece. I received a shipping confirmation for the piece from them this morning.
> 
> Thats how VC should handle things.
> 
> Tumi didnt make any money of this, its from a product that has been discontinued and i was fully expecting to be out of luck. 2 days later the issue is resolved.


You've definitely got a screw loose.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Sassicaia said:


> Funny, but on friday I returned from a trip to notice a screw/pin was missing from a Tumi carry on bag. The bag is 3 years old, and no longer produced. I called Tumi customer service to see if they would have this obscure piece. I received a shipping confirmation for the piece from them this morning.
> 
> Thats how VC should handle things.
> 
> Tumi didnt make any money of this, its from a product that has been discontinued and i was fully expecting to be out of luck. 2 days later the issue is resolved.


Tumi has a long history of standing behind their products. Then again, the first time I bought luggage from them (1989; ~$400 for a suitcase & $400 for a garment bag), they covered their stuff with a lifetime warranty. That was one of their tactics (I presume) to steal market share from Hartman. The last time I bought something of theirs was sometime around 2003. The price had increased by about $100 and the warranty had dropped to five years. That doesn't stress me out too much as I have yet to actually need to use the warranty coverage.

At the moment, Briggs and Riley offer a lifetime warranty, and if they do the next time I need luggage, I'll likely buy that brand. In contrast, I don't expect much to go awry with a watch, and that's been my experience. (Clearly, given this thread, things can go wrong.) I only know of a few brands of anything that offer a lifetime warranty.

Citizen - may be the only manufacture having such a warranty. It's the only one that readily comes to mind, though I don't think all Citizens are manufacture. pieces.
Skagen
Victorinoxx
Charles Hubert
Croton

I get why many high-end mechanical watches don't have super long and broad warranties: there's a lot that could go wrong and there're a lot of thing that could cause things to go wrong. Plus, whereas VC's automatic movement, for example is "all this and that," CH's is just a run of the mill Japanese automatic movement that works. It's not there to be pretty to look at, or be admired for its Rh plating or blued screws.

Regardless of the price point, it's reasonable to believe that any product having some sort of lifetime warranty is quite well put together and one shouldn't have too much concern about buying them. Sometimes one really is unlikely to have to use the warranty coverage such as has been my experience with watches. Other times, one absolutely wants it because of the punishment or lackadaisical care one'll give to the item, say tools (hammers, saws, etc.) or luggage.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Cartier is still regreting giving a lifetime warranty on it's watches some years back.


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## tony20009 (Sep 25, 2013)

Watchbreath said:


> Cartier is still regreting giving a lifetime warranty on it's watches some years back.


Well, if you make stuff that doesn't live up to the hype, I guess you will regret doing that. LOL.


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## GlenRoiland (Jul 4, 2012)

I didn't think this would generate 13 pages!


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## refugio (Jul 1, 2011)

Sassicaia said:


> Tumi didnt make any money of this, its from a product that has been discontinued and i was fully expecting to be out of luck. 2 days later the issue is resolved.


Last week I couldn't find one of the silicone rings from one of our Takeya pitchers (about $13 on Amazon), and I couldn't find a replacement part on their web site so I called them. The next day I received a set of both silicone rings.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

No hype, Bedat has a 5 year warranty.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

although my screws have not arrived I have been told they are on their way. Should they come next week it will have taken a total of 19 weeks for them to arrive.

Seems reasonable for something as complicated as putting 3 screws into an envelope then placing them in the mail.

19 weeks.

As a point of reference I built a 3500 sqft house in less time then that.


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## ev13wt (Oct 21, 2013)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> ...The thing is, because 90% of the people who own an expensive timepiece only do it for the status, and not for the quality of the product/service, they never really complain/react, they just sport their gold watch and that's it
> Arf...


99% The rest is on forums. Maybe. (Bear in mind this is my opinion)

I always hear great customer service, prices on services and turnaround about the various microbrands. Its always the big guns who obviously sell so much that their just don't care.

I think that the big swiss guys, statistically, sell 1 watch per generation which gets worn on special occasions else lives in a drawer. I would guess that only 20% of buyers actually understand the term "service" and 1/4th of those even consider it. Watch runs fine, happy camper.

Everyone outside of this forum I know in rl, that have expensive watches, have 1. 2 guys have 2. I know that is statistically irrelevant but I do think its pretty close the the grand scale / scheme.


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## shartouh (Oct 9, 2013)

If someone bought luxury Watches not watch from retail. without original warranty, then they do not care about service. many reasons .....
example protects its own market level.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

They do care when something goes wrong and boy do they whine.


shartouh said:


> If someone bought luxury Watches not watch from retail. without original warranty, then they do not care about service. many reasons .....
> example protects its own market level.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

Why on earth should service levels vary depending on if you bought a watch from an AD/retail or not? I get that the manufacture does not honour the warranty in some cases, but that does not mean a level of service should waver in any capacity if someone asks for service with money in hand. 90% of the poor experiences I received was when dealing directly with VC and an AD when trying to purchase a watch anyway.

If my grandfather hands me down a vintage VC in his will should I expect and accept a lower level of service from VC because I received it as an heirloom rather then buying it from an AD? That makes absolutely no sense at all. None.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

So, when do we start that 'yelp' for high end watches thingy I suggested a couple of pages back?


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

Galactic Sushiman said:


> So, when do we start that 'yelp' for high end watches thingy I suggested a couple of pages back?


you mean a website?


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

I guess you could call it a 'social network'.

High level:

- Register, have access to all reviews available by all users and able to post reviews
- Review ADs, and manufacturers/facilities quality of service (time, issues post servicing, etc...) 
- Aggregates everything automatically and give an average mark (for instance 4 stars out of 5) to each AD and each facility/manufacturer
- Make sure it's a respected and valued 'club' that the high end community uses and populates (the magic part )

A few months after its creation, you are likely to see the following:

- customers will start making educated choices, and will incorporate the rating in their consumption
- ADs and manufacturers/facilities will really start competing again, resulting in a much better quality of service for consumers

I imagine there would be some limits though:

- it would only about quality of service, not a data bank of the rebate given by each AD on each brand 
- it would probably need some kind of deep typology (time and quality for complicated pieces, non-complicated, ETA/generic movements, this and that )


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

how would such a website pay for itself?



Galactic Sushiman said:


> I guess you could call it a 'social network'.
> 
> High level:
> 
> ...


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## Emtee (Mar 23, 2013)

Just thought I would chime in with the following - My Dad just bought a pre-owned Overseas and took it to the VC Boutique in London for a service. They had a quote back to him within 3 days and the watch should be ready for collection in 8 weeks. They treated him extremely well, gave him a tour of the workshop, a free leather travel case and the price was actually very reasonable for a full service + bracelet restoration.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

shnjb said:


> how would such a website pay for itself?


Like any other social network, selling influence.


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## jpohn (Jun 19, 2009)

I think a watch database site - "Yelp for watches" - would be a useful addition to the online community; something where people around the world (in semi-anonymous fashion) could list all of the watches in their collection and attach things like photos, reviews, service events, purchase events, interesting information (misc. comments) and requests for information. The possibilities are endless, really, but tracking service events is key in my mind.

The service data would start off anecdotal (like it has in this thread), but if enough collectors recorded all of their service events - especially the services that went fine - the aggregated data could turn out to be really useful. Right now, it's very difficult for an industry "outsider" to figure out which brands offer good service and whether the servicing is consistent across geographical regions. With a an interesting supporting blog and a decent web team, the site should be able to pay for itself.

I actually played with the idea about a year ago, going as far as sketching out the interface and I even worked on a database schema. I wanted to build a site around such a database and a supporting blog, but I passed the technical buck off to a friend. In the end, the database never saw the light of day and the blog (The Ticking Truth | Watch Blog and Watch Buying Guide | The Ticking Truth)...well it is a bit of a nightmare from design standpoint. I've since learned that my photography skills are slow-to-improve too, but I continue to enjoy writing material when I have the time.

If there is serious interest in creating a "Yelp" for watches (and putting in the development time), I'd be willing to discuss.



Galactic Sushiman said:


> Like any other social network, selling influence.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

jpohn said:


> I think a watch database site - "Yelp for watches" - would be a useful addition to the online community; something where people around the world (in semi-anonymous fashion) could list all of the watches in their collection and attach things like photos, reviews, service events, purchase events, interesting information (misc. comments) and requests for information. The possibilities are endless, really, but tracking service events is key in my mind.
> 
> The service data would start off anecdotal (like it has in this thread), but if enough collectors recorded all of their service events - especially the services that went fine - the aggregated data could turn out to be really useful. Right now, it's very difficult for an industry "outsider" to figure out which brands offer good service and whether the servicing is consistent across geographical regions. With a an interesting supporting blog and a decent web team, the site should be able to pay for itself.
> 
> ...


I am a specialist in communication in general, and online in particular, and I can also help on the design side. But this is the work of a team, I am just throwing the idea in the air, hoping someone like you will catch the ball


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## jpohn (Jun 19, 2009)

I'll take that as a promise that I can count on you and the rest of the thread participants for early-stage testing, design & feedback!

The next few weeks are very critical for me business-wise, but I will try to whip up a virtual "watch box" site over the holidays because it's been on my "to-do" list for a while...


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

That's exactly what I meant, I'll be happy to feedback on a prototype along the way (on design, UI and usability). I really hope the other people interested in this thread will follow


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## IGotId (Feb 14, 2012)

Sorry to bump an old thread. 

I'm considering purchasing an Overseas & thought I'd do some research. I searched for servicing threads & cam across this thread. Don't know if the OP is still around but thought I'd see how/if the situation was resolved.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

Im still around, and I resolved the situation myself buy buying an Overseas that was in stock rather then order one in. Of course I also used a different dealer. It was never "resolved", but I did a work around. 

Never changed my opinion on the watch itself.


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## IGotId (Feb 14, 2012)

Sassicaia said:


> Im still around, and I resolved the situation myself buy buying an Overseas that was in stock rather then order one in. Of course I also used a different dealer. It was never "resolved", but I did a work around.
> 
> Never changed my opinion on the watch itself.


Thanks for the reply


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## plastique999 (May 17, 2014)

Sassicaia said:


> Im still around, and I resolved the situation myself buy buying an Overseas that was in stock rather then order one in. Of course I also used a different dealer. It was never "resolved", but I did a work around.
> 
> Never changed my opinion on the watch itself.


Curious what you mean by order one in. I am awaiting a VC Overseas that I ordered through an AD and I'm curious now if it may take a while.

Sent from my 16M


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## kkchome (Aug 12, 2008)

I recently got my overseas chonometer (42042) serviced. It took 8 weeks. It wasn't cheap, but not too crazy expensive (except for some of the parts):

Complete Service & Polishing (light polish): HK$5,600
Replacement sapphire crystal: HK$1,720
Replacement white gold hand: HK$1,290
Folding Clasp for bracelet : HK$7,500
Replacement Crown: HK$630

Total: HK$16,740. This works out to about $2,160 US Dollars.


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

plastique999 said:


> Curious what you mean by order one in. I am awaiting a VC Overseas that I ordered through an AD and I'm curious now if it may take a while.
> 
> Sent from my 16M


I went the same route as you. If you read my initial post you will see that I was told an arrive date if i paid in full by a certain date. After paying the arrival date changed drastically. If you ordered one in and were given an arrive window that you are happy with then IMO there is nothing to worry about.

Mine changed, and while that can happen the response to it was poor (IMO).


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## Sassicaia (Jan 27, 2013)

kkchome said:


> I recently got my overseas chonometer (42042) serviced. It took 8 weeks. It wasn't cheap, but not too crazy expensive (except for some of the parts):
> 
> Complete Service & Polishing (light polish): HK$5,600
> Replacement sapphire crystal: HK$1,720
> ...


Given the work done that actually seems reasonable. Considering a full service and polish only equalled about $720 USD assuming my conversion is correct.


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