# Advice regarding marine watches



## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

I am not a watch collector, and so I am not very knowledgeable. I did not know exactly where to post this thread, but most marine watches I like are German, so maybe this is the best place.

I am looking for a new (or new to me) marine watch. I have read all the threads I could find here on the subject, but none are very recent, so I thought I would ask the community for some advice. I think I am close to some choices. The budget is +/- $1,000 maximum. Less is better, of course, but the best would be the best "value versus cost".

The basic requirements are:
Hand-wound preferred. Automatic could be OK, but only with no date.
40-42mm stainless steel case.
White, enamel, or silver dial; heat-treated blued hands.
Classic marine watch face with outer "railroad track".
Arabic numbers only, in a simple and elegant font.

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I really like the Glashütte Original Senator Automatic; the Hentschel Hafenmeister H2; IWC Portuguese FA Jones; and any Dornblueth would be a grail&#8230;I think that they are the most elegant and beautiful. But I cannot afford any of those. Even to afford one of those I am looking at I would have to sell 2 of my watches.

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The brands I have dis-counted so far are:
Archimede Deck Watch: OK, but I am not fond of the "open" 9 or of the font in general. (At least they finally dispensed with the "HANDAUFZUNG" above the seconds dial.)
Hamilton - no models appeal.
Laco - no models appeal.
Steinhart Marine Chronometer 44: I really do not like the dial/numbers, and 44mm is a bit too large.

*********************************************
That leaves, so far:
Kemmner: OK, from what I have read. I wish that the "Kemmner" was all caps, with no "Mechanik" beneath it.

Schaumburg Unikatorium Marine Hand Made: I know absolutely nothing about this brand.

Stowa MO; I love the design, the heritage, and the reputation. This seems to be by far the most recommended marine watch, here on WUS, in this budget range.

Tourby Marine: these seem very similar to the Stowa. Is the movement, finish, quality the same as Stowa? Some of the descriptions on the Tourby site are a bit vague to me.

I am not down to a Stowa versus Tourby only comparison; it is simply that I have come across these two the most. I will need to look at the other brands and/or new recommendations more carefully before deciding.

The Stowa/Tourby fonts look very similar (I prefer the Tourby "3" and "5"). I prefer the seconds hand with the tail on the Stowa. I prefer the small Stowa triangle at 12 to the Tourby bar. I am undecided on the hour/minute hands; both look nice. Ironically I far prefer the new TOURBY logo to their old script one, while I far preferred the old Stowa logo to their new one.

If those with experience and expertise can provide advice/comments/recommendations between these various choices, or suggest other brands that I have not yet found, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

Don't overlook the Stowa Marine Automatic. It's smaller and cheaper than the MO. I would have preferred the MO, but the diameter and lug-to-lug were just too big. The pictured watch also might be fitted with a handwound movement if you prefer--inquire with Stowa. There are sometimes options available that are not on the website. I have had this watch (date version) for a few years and absolutely love it in all respects. Good luck with your search!


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

I guess I'd go with the Stowa out of the ones you've narrowed it down to, as long as you can live with the new logo (a lot of people can't). For every nit-pick you've stated for not liking the Archimede, the Stowa logo trumps them all for most.

I personally would go with the bronze Archimede because:
1) It's actually German Made, not just German assembled.
2) The CusN8 is very high quality, it's unique, and very appropriate for such a watch.
3) Has flame blued hands manufactured in-house.

The Stowa will have the better decorated Unitas, and (for some) the more pleasing font. Is that worth the $300 difference in price? 

The merits that one has over the other are easy to appreciate for both.

Side note: As you have mentioned non-German pieces like the Hamilton and IWC, I'd also suggest looking at the new Seiko Presage. The biggest bang for the buck of them all, and the nicest looking as far as I'm concerned.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

flyingpicasso said:


> Don't overlook the Stowa Marine Automatic. It's smaller and cheaper than the MO. I would have preferred the MO, but the diameter and lug-to-lug were just too big. The pictured watch also might be fitted with a handwound movement if you prefer--inquire with Stowa. There are sometimes options available that are not on the website. I have had this watch (date version) for a few years and absolutely love it in all respects. Good luck with your search!


Thank you. 
Interesting option, maybe. I feel drawn still to the sub-seconds, for tradition, design, and difference from my other watches (all center-seconds), but will look at this option.

I just looked on Stowa, and the MA Klassik 40 Silver (no date) comes standard with an automatic ETA 2824-2 Top, but as you mentioned a hand-winding ETA 2804-2 is an option for +17 EUR.

I know a bit about the ETA 2824-2, since my Damasko has one, but I know nothing about any differences between the hand-wound center-seconds 2804-2 and the Unitas 6498-1 sub-seconds. Is there a significant quality/durability difference?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> I guess I'd go with the Stowa out of the ones you've narrowed it down to, as long as you can live with the new logo (a lot of people can't). For every nit-pick you've stated for not liking the Archimede, the Stowa logo trumps them all for most.
> 
> I personally would go with the bronze Archimede because:
> 1) It's actually German Made, not just German assembled.
> ...


Thank you. I will look at that Archimede model again.
Do you consider the Stowa not truly German Made because of the movements? Isn't the Archimede movement the same exact one?

Too bad the Archimede bronze Deck watch doesn't come with black hand-applied numerals from the Archimede Klassik. That could look nice.

Whatever happened with the Schauer/Durowe thing anyway?

I agree re: the new Stowa logo, but it seems that one can, with patience, find a old-logo MO.

I'm not, at this point, committed to Stowa _per se_, or even German, really.

I looked at the Seikos you suggested just now, but I don't see any no date/Arabic numeral models. I'm not fond of Roman numerals, and the stick marker models are (aesthetically, I mean) fairly similar to my "Blue Spark" in some ways...in any case I guess I don't see the Presage or the Blue Spark as a traditional marine watch.

That said, the SSA343J1 and SPB045J1 do look quite nice; just not really what I am looking for.


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## gerasimos33 (Dec 24, 2015)

You can also have a look at the Tourby marine arabic. It uses a different font and they will soon release their new 40.5mm cases if 43mm is too big for you.

This is the 43mm from their website:


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

I like that font, thanks. I can't recall where I have seen that curved "4" before...maybe GO? 40.5mm would be nice.

What is the feeling regarding no numerals on the sub-seconds dial versus numerals?

Does it feel too sparse with no numerals?


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Thank you. I will look at that Archimede model again.
> Do you consider the Stowa not truly German Made because of the movements? Isn't the Archimede movement the same exact one?
> 
> Too bad the Archimede bronze Deck watch doesn't come with black hand-applied numerals from the Archimede Klassik. That could look nice.
> ...


I consider Stowa an assembler because they produce nothing themselves. The dials are German Made, and the straps may be, but that's it .

Archimede (along with Defakto and Limes) is a brand of the Ickler family who have been manufacturing cases in Germany for over 90 years. They produce their own steel hands now as well. Watches are more than just a movement.


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## rreimer91 (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't have the models you are looking at, but I do have a Stowa no logo flieger (40mm auto) and a Tourby Argentum (hand wind 42mm). 

Both are excellent quality especially for the price. I don't think you can go wrong with either. I slightly prefer the Tourby for feel on the wrist. 

So I think you should go with which ever looks better to you. On the two you mention above, I like the Tourby a little better - the arabic numerals look a little cleaner to me and I actually like the reduced clutter of no numerals on the seconds dial. But I would be by no means disappointed with the Stowa.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

I was in pretty much the same situation as you last summer, looking at picking up a marine watch, and looking at the various options that were out there, and deliberated over them for a good 10 months or so before finally deciding which one not too long ago. Considered pretty much all the exact same options that you have mentioned, and I did stretch my glance to the Dornbluth 99.1 (the proportions/placement of the subdial is nicer there, but that would've have also blown the budget by a few times) and the Hentschels as well.

Ultimately, I did decide on the Stowa Marine Original. For a small wrist, the smaller 41mm case was a factor; only the Hamilton Navy Pioneer is smaller at 40mm (short of happening across a preowned RGM EoT). And the big bold fonted German design appealed to me more than the more reserved Tourby take on it, or the Hamilton 21 inspired pieces. The Archimede bronze was its main competition, and I'm sure I read through every Archimede vs Stowa (vs whatever else) marine watch thread on the forums at least a few times. The Stowa's decorated movement with swan neck regulator edged it out eventually though. And neither the Archimede or Kemmner's dial/hands looked quite as refined in various close up photography posted by others.

Obviously there's some cost difference between these different models as well, so I think the value is pretty good for what you get for any of these; the Stowa just happened to be the at the right place for what I wanted for style, finishing, and what I had in mind for budget.

Oops, can't leave a watch thread without posting a picture, so...










(Yeah, I would've liked the old Stowa logo as well, but that wasn't a deal-breaker for me.)


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Iandk said:


> I was in pretty much the same situation as you last summer, looking at picking up a marine watch, and looking at the various options that were out there, and deliberated over them for a good 10 months or so before finally deciding which one not too long ago....


Thank you.
That's a nice MO. Is that white dial or silver?

Yes, I know the feeling! I have looking at these things on/off for a couple of years, but would really like to finally buy something this summer.

I know nothing of the Schaumburg brand, and my issues with the other brands that I listed above always come down to the same ones, so at least that is consistent.

It does always seem to come down to Archimede versus Stowa versus Tourby. For me, the deal-breaker on the Archimede is the font; I just can't stand it. It feels very gimmicky to me, and is far more bothersome to my eye than the old v. new Stowa logo. Kemmner/Stowa/Tourby Marine Silver are all very similar to me, and in the end it seems to come down to Stowa v. Tourby. The Stowa swan's neck is a big plus, in my opinion. A mint Stowa MO old logo would probably be ideal.

I am intrigued by the "new" Tourby Arabic 40.5 that gerasimos33 posted above, but can't decide if the new font is too "modern" for this application, and whether or not the blank sub-seconds (I mocked up a numbered sub-seconds to see what a traditional numbered dial would look like) is more elegant or is too blank.... o|


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## horolicious (May 31, 2015)

Tourby will take time to calibrate move to chronometer grade performance. They can finish the movement to your liking. 

More pics on the 📨


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

horolicious said:


> Tourby will take time to calibrate move to chronometer grade performance. They can finish the movement to your liking.
> 
> More pics on the 


Yes, but that is also what is unclear to a non-expert like myself.

I think the old Tourby website was more clear regarding options/upgrades; now, I find it very difficult to understand what a Tourby with any upgrades would cost, let alone even know which questions to ask.


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## a to the k (Apr 4, 2014)

I am an owner and big fan of the Archimede DeckWatch. 
The "new" blued hands make it by far the best bang...

On such a "toolish" watch I also prefer solid caseback, which is an option with the Archimede.

What I can contribute is:
I love the proportion of the "only" 20mm lug strap to the case - this gives the watch even more a vintage look.
Next thing is case quality: this is quiet perfect! A very smooth brush, way over it's price range.
Dial: Print quality is top notch. Really. I also like the font, no idea what bothers you with that...

Anyway, and this might be important for you: I have/had Rolex, Omega, Stowa, Seiko, Citizen, ... BUT: Honestly, the Archimede is my personal best price-performance ratio off all the watches I owned. And even more - it is a very well made, just perfect watch for me (7,2 wrist) that definitely can compare in quality to lots of watches out there over 1000,00 EUR.

Unfortunately, there seem to be no pics in the web that show the beauty of this watch. And since I am a bad photographer, I can't contriibute anything at that point...

I would highly recommend any watch made by Ickler. As already said: really inhouse watches for incredible "low" prices.

Sorry for my English.

Hope this helps.

Good luck & Cheers


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

Consider this one. Both case and dial are Made In Germany. Tremendous value at $695.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Your Damasko houses an ETA 2836-2. The first with an ETA 2824-2 will be the DSub1 to be launched soon.
However, 2824-2 and 2836-2 have the same pedigree.
The most important difference comparing the Unitas 6498 (formerly a pocket watch movement) and ETA 2804-2 is the beat rate. The Unitas 6498-1 beats at 18.000, the 2804-2 with 28.800. interesting read on beat rate differences: Why the obsession with high beat rate and its supposed superiority?.
The 2804-2 is a movement with date indication. The date wheel is removed by Stowa for no-date watches. But you still have three cron positions: winding, setting hands, setting date.

Stowa Marine 2801-2


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

The Durowe 7440 is available for additional $$. See web site and Jörg's most recent thread on the 7440 on our Stowa Forum.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

a to the k said:


> I am an owner and big fan of the Archimede DeckWatch.
> The "new" blued hands make it by far the best bang...
> 
> On such a "toolish" watch I also prefer solid caseback, which is an option with the Archimede.
> ...


Thank you. Your English is perfectly clear (it is not my first language either). 
You make some excellent points, like CM Hunter did as well.
I do like the case, and the Ickler provenance. I am sure the Archimede is a very, very fine watch in that price range.

The real problem I still have is the font.
I am an architect and designer, and these small details are important to me. Of course, it is all subjective.

My feelings are that a marine watch is maybe best with a very neutral font, like the Kemmner, Tourby Marine Silver, and Stowa. These are "background" fonts, no? The "new" Tourby Arabic; the Archimede Deck Watch; etc., are definitely more "designed" fonts. They call attention to themselves, regardless of the dial, hands, etc.

Here below, in maybe a not-so-fair comparison, is the Archimede DW next to a (to me, grail) Dornbluth 99.1, which I think is really elegant and clean. Of course the Dornbluth numerals are applied, and so are completely different (and even more elegant) but let's forget that. Still, I think the Stowa/Tourby numerals are much closer in spirit to the Dornbluth than the Archimede numerals are.

* In general, for me, the Dornbluth numerals are much lighter and much more open...clearly more square in proportion. The Archimede numerals seem to use twice the ink to say exactly the same thing. The Dornbluth numerals seem to float; by comparison the Archimede numerals appear heavy, sagging.

* The Dornbluth numerals are all closed, completed figures; no open figures.

* The Dornbluth numerals have very subtle, elegant serifs, almost invisible but still there, which cleanly terminate the figures. The Archimede "serifs" are quite exaggerated, at the very limit of too much...almost comical, like some bad soccer team uniforms.

* Because of the more square proportions of the Dornbluth numbers, I think the compound curves ("2", "3", "8") are far more elegant. The figures are all more round and balanced on the dial, in my opinion.

And yet, even though I find the Archimede font so much more compressed and squished, I actually could live with it in general... but then the extremely aggressive, sharp "4" and the weak, open "9" really ruin it for me.

In any case, in the end this is only an aesthetic debate for me, since I will never be able to afford a Dornbluth. But it does help me look at these things, I guess, and try to find a decent compromise within my means.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> Consider this one. Both case and dial are Made In Germany. Tremendous value at $695.


Where are they? They are "assemblers" too? I cannot even find a website.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> Your Damasko houses an ETA 2836-2. The first with an ETA 2824-2 will be the DSub1 to be launched soon.
> However, 2824-2 and 2836-2 have the same pedigree.
> The most important difference comparing the Unitas 6498 (formerly a pocket watch movement) and ETA 2804-2 is the beat rate. The Unitas 6498-1 beats at 18.000, the 2804-2 with 28.800. interesting read on beat rate differences: Why the obsession with high beat rate and its supposed superiority?.
> The 2804-2 is a movement with date indication. The date wheel is removed by Stowa for no-date watches. But you still have three cron positions: winding, setting hands, setting date.
> ...


Thank you Mike. Oops, yes, ETA 2836-2 on the DA 36.

I know you are an expert; I am certainly not. I will read the link you posted, but in case I do not understand it all, which is the more durable movement for a hand-wound, the Unitas 6498 or the ETA/Stowa-modified 2804-2/2801-2?

The photo you posted is a Stowa Klassik with 2801-2, is that right? That looks like a very, very, very beautiful watch. Stunning simplicity. And with the old logo.
Is it still available, even with the new logo? I love it.

So is a hand-wound center-seconds preferable/more durable than an automatic center-seconds?



stuffler said:


> The Durowe 7440 is available for additional $$. See web site and Jörg's most recent thread on the 7440 on our Stowa Forum.


Thank you again. I will read that also. In general, is there any consensus or not as to the Durowe being a better movement for the price?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

All the movements mentioned in this thread proved to be work horses over decades. So a difference in durability will only be marginal if any. The 2804-2 is just a 2801-2 + date wheel. 
Service intervals may differ a bit (necessity of lubrication on slow and fast beater, see the other thread I linked to) but this is marginal as well and shouldn't be an issue for the the average Joe.

The Marine 2801-2 with the old logo and silver dial is a discontinued model. Available on the second hand market only and hard to get btw. Silver dial Marine with 2804-2 and new logo is available for $1000.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> iInteresting read on beat rate differences: Why the obsession with high beat rate and its supposed superiority?.


OK. I read that thread, and basically did not understand any of it. I do not have the knowledge to be able to take in the most basic (even pretty verbose, at that, for an amateur) pro/con arguments each side make, so I still have no idea at all regarding the quality/durability of the Unitas 6498 versus the ETA 2804-2. Not even a clue. Maybe some less technical help/advice is possible?



stuffler said:


> The Durowe 7440 is available for additional $$. See web site and Jörg's most recent thread on the 7440 on our Stowa Forum.


This was a much more clear read, thank you.
But now I find myself very much intrigued by the Stowa center-seconds Marine 2801-2...it looks perfect to me.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> All the movements mentioned in this thread proved to be work horses over decades. So a difference in durability will only be marginal if any. The 2804-2 is just a 2801-2 + date wheel.
> Service intervals may differ a bit (necessity of lubrication on slow and fast beater, see the other thread I linked to) but this is marginal as well and shouldn't be an issue for the the average Joe.
> 
> The Marine 2801-2 with the old logo and silver dial is a discontinued model. Available on the second hand market only and hard to get btw. Silver dial Marine with 2804-2 and new logo is available for $1000.


Thank you again Mike.

Too bad the 2801-2 w/old logo is now difficult to find. It is really gorgeous.

I see the 2804-2 (Marine Klassik 40 white polished) on the Stowa site, but I really prefer no date.

Is there any current 28XX-X, etc., Stowa offering with no date and with center-seconds, like the 2801-2 you posted above?


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

A slight sidenote on the stowa logos: the marine original black dials should come with the old logo still. The pics on stowa's website show that, and late last year I got the old logo on my MO-arabic-black. 

As for back to the original question - I'd say, go with Stowa. The (handground) case finishing on the brushed cases is magnificent. (If you have the choice, I would *strongly* suggest asking for a brushed case - afaik on most if not all MOs it's an option you can specify during ordering).


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## Diabolic Coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

Just a toss out as a contender: I really love my tangramatic Nereid. No dat, but it does have small seconds and a 24 hour clock in a marine chrono style. It's a Miyota 8215 movement, and at the lower end of the watches suggested here; but the enamel is gorgeous and I've loved mine ever since it arrived. May be worth a look.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Sold out according to web site.

The Miyota is a non hacking movement. Hands are too small and badly laquered, at least the tips of minute and hour hand seem to be not completely blue.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Where are they? They are "assemblers" too? I cannot even find a website.


Read the dial, their website matches it.

Yes assemblers too. If you're stuck on one, you might as well consider another. And it's more German for WAY less money. Go figure.

Basically you're wanting the same font used by pretty much everybody putting out their version of a deck watch. Except the fact that "their version" looks just like everybody else's chosen reference. Historical examples of these Chronometers were not all exactly the same. Not your cup of tea granted, at least Archimede is sticking by that and is doing their own thing (kinda like offering a bronze case) by offering a different, yet still historically used look.

Here's an example. As classy as anything else if you ask me.


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## gerasimos33 (Dec 24, 2015)

cadenza said:


> I like that font, thanks. I can't recall where I have seen that curved "4" before...maybe GO? 40.5mm would be nice.
> 
> What is the feeling regarding no numerals on the sub-seconds dial versus numerals?
> 
> ...


I prefer the numerals of the Marine Arabic myself. Reminds me of the Portuguese handwound.

Shamelessly stolen of the net:
https://zegarkiipiora.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/iwc_portuguese_hw8d_12.jpg

But, that's just my preference. I think the Marine Arabic has been around for a few years in 43 and 45mm but they just developed their 40.5mm - 9mm thick, which is close to the limit for a Unitas. That watch is also on my list.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

cadenza said:


> Thank you.
> That's a nice MO. Is that white dial or silver?


It's the white dial.



cadenza said:


> Yes, I know the feeling! I have looking at these things on/off for a couple of years, but would really like to finally buy something this summer.
> 
> I know nothing of the Schaumburg brand, and my issues with the other brands that I listed above always come down to the same ones, so at least that is consistent.
> 
> ...


Looking at historical examples of marine chronometers (but pocket watches in general as well), the majority seem to have a labelled subdial (at least, in the pictures I've run across, I have no statistics nor have I handled that many in person), so that just feels more 'right' to me. Granted, the proportions of the font used and scale of the lines can vary, which may make or break the appearance, depending on your preferences.

About some of the other options, the Wilson Watch Works subdial is not inset, while the Kemmner one is. The handset on those are also a different style than those found on most of the historical marine chronometers I've seen (which is the style used by Stowa and Tourby), and not a style which I've seen on any marine chronometer at all, so that was another point against them on my end. The Archimede's handset is more in the style of the Hamilton Model 21/22's (and so is the Hamilton Navy Pioneer watch's hands, obviously), which seemed a bit odd to me without the Hamilton-styled dial. Given my personal preference for a more historic look, you can see how this ended up going towards the Stowa. Obviously, if you have different preferences towards the details, and don't mind some mixing & matching or unique changes, this may not matter to you as much or at all.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

X2-Elijah said:


> A slight sidenote on the stowa logos: the marine original black dials should come with the old logo still. The pics on stowa's website show that, and late last year I got the old logo on my MO-arabic-black.
> 
> As for back to the original question - I'd say, go with Stowa. The (handground) case finishing on the brushed cases is magnificent. (If you have the choice, I would *strongly* suggest asking for a brushed case - afaik on most if not all MOs it's an option you can specify during ordering).


Thank you.
I am only looking for a white or silvered dial, but my feeling is that regardless of logo the Stowa is most likely the best choice at this point.

Definitely a brushed case; thank you for the reminder.

The new v. old logo is in no way a deal-breaker for me. If the "new" logo had always been the original Stowa logo, I would be completely happy with it. I do not find it offensive at all.



Diabolic Coffee said:


> Just a toss out as a contender: I really love my tangramatic Nereid. No dat, but it does have small seconds and a 24 hour clock in a marine chrono style. It's a Miyota 8215 movement, and at the lower end of the watches suggested here; but the enamel is gorgeous and I've loved mine ever since it arrived. May be worth a look.


Thank you. That looks interesting. I will look into it.

Oops, apparently sold out per Mike, below. If the hands are in fact painted, that is also not a draw for me.



stuffler said:


> Sold out according to web site.
> 
> The Miyota is a non hacking movement. Hands are too small and badly laquered, at least the tips of minute and hour hand seem to be not completely blue.


Thank you Mike.

But, are any of the movements discussed in this thread hacking movements, though?



gerasimos33 said:


> I prefer the numerals of the Marine Arabic myself. Reminds me of the Portuguese handwound.
> 
> Shamelessly stolen of the net:
> https://zegarkiipiora.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/iwc_portuguese_hw8d_12.jpg
> ...


Thank you.

I emailed Tourby yesterday evening, and Lisa replied almost immediately:
_"The Marine Arabic in 40 will come in 2018 or 2019. The Marine Silver 40 will come in September 2017.

You can choose different hands (Marine style) with the Marine Silver.

Attached_ (I have re-attached below) _are pictures of our new 40 watch case. It will have the same design like the 43 and 45 watch case. This is our own design. We will not work any more with 42 watch case, because these are standard designs you will find same from many other brands.

42 models will be still available until June 2018."_



Iandk said:


> It's the white dial.
> 
> Looking at historical examples of marine chronometers (but pocket watches in general as well), the majority seem to have a labelled subdial (at least, in the pictures I've run across, I have no statistics nor have I handled that many in person), so that just feels more 'right' to me. Granted, the proportions of the font used and scale of the lines can vary, which may make or break the appearance, depending on your preferences.
> 
> About some of the other options, the Wilson Watch Works subdial is not inset, while the Kemmner one is. The handset on those are also a different style than those found on most of the historical marine chronometers I've seen (which is the style used by Stowa and Tourby), and not a style which I've seen on any marine chronometer at all, so that was another point against them on my end. The Archimede's handset is more in the style of the Hamilton Model 21/22's (and so is the Hamilton Navy Pioneer watch's hands, obviously), which seemed a bit odd to me without the Hamilton-styled dial. Given my personal preference for a more historic look, you can see how this ended up going towards the Stowa. Obviously, if you have different preferences towards the details, and don't mind some mixing & matching or unique changes, this may not matter to you as much or at all.


Very nice watch.

Thank you for the info. The labelled subdial does look more interesting and proper to me as well. I am not so convinced re: the WWW; it seems pretty non-authentic, including for the reasons you noted. I guess, to my inexpert eyes the WWW, Archimede, and even Kemmner look very much at their price-point, whereas the Stowa and Tourby look more than above their price-point. I think that that is not an insignificant factor.

gerasimos33: here are the photos of the 40.5mm case from Lisa at Tourby:


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## Diabolic Coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

stuffler said:


> Sold out according to web site.
> 
> The Miyota is a non hacking movement. Hands are too small and badly laquered, at least the tips of minute and hour hand seem to be not completely blue.


I think that what you're seeing is just the picture. The hands actually look pretty good, but I think you're right that they are lacquered.









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Diabolic Coffee said:


> I think that what you're seeing is just the picture. The hands actually look pretty good, but I think you're right that they are lacquered.


I do like the design.

How long have you had it? How well has it/does it run?


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## Diabolic Coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

cadenza said:


> I do like the design.
> 
> How long have you had it? How well has it/does it run?


About two years. Runs perfect.

I really do love the watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Diabolic Coffee said:


> About two years. Runs perfect.
> 
> I really do love the watch.


Thank you. My feeling is for a Stowa or Tourby, but I just added my address to their mailing list to be advised of the re-issue as I research it further. Looking at the website, I really don't much like their other designs but this one intrigues me. I cannot tell from looking at internet images; are both sub-dials recessed?


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

The subdial of the Stowa is not so much inset as it is an odd hump that's been a questioned topic in another thread.

The Wilson has a German Made case, a German Made dial, sapphire crystal, flame blued hands, and a plain Unitas that has been upgraded with Novodiac shock protection. I'm not sure where someone would "see" a higher quality product from Stowa or Tourby that could possibly justify a $400 price difference. There's no better quality materials used, and there's no way the cost can be seen in what either has to offer with their movements. That hand finishing must really be something, but more likely it's the fact that the novelty of certain name brands on a dial can help to justify a lot.

To be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I've made my choice personally for a watch covering this niche, and couldn't be more satisfied. I've offered two different options to consider, and not just one to be "pushed" onto somebody. Whichever marine watch is chosen here will have its own merits, and I hope it's enjoyed for a lifetime.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

If you are thinking about stretching for a Tourby or Stowa, I think both are well worth the additional cost in comparison to Archimede. Don't get me wrong; Archimede provides good value. But as a current/former owner of watches from all 3 brands, I appreciate the higher level of finish throughout the watch (dial, case, movement, etc.) for Stowa and Tourby.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> The subdial of the Stowa is not so much inset as it is an odd hump that's been a questioned topic in another thread.
> 
> The Wilson has a German Made case, a German Made dial, sapphire crystal, flame blued hands, and a plain Unitas that has been upgraded with Novodiac shock protection. I'm not sure where someone would "see" a higher quality product from Stowa or Tourby that could possibly justify a $400 price difference. There's no better quality materials used, and there's no way the cost can be seen in what either has to offer with their movements. That hand finishing must really be something, but more likely it's the fact that the cache of certain name brands on a dial can help to justify a lot.
> 
> To be clear, I have no dog in this fight. I've made my choice personally for a watch covering this niche, and couldn't be more satisfied. I've offered two different options to consider, and not just one to be "pushed" onto somebody. Whichever marine watch is chosen here will have its own merits, and I hope it's enjoyed for a lifetime.


I don't understand your first sentence. What do you mean by "hump"? The Stowa sub-dial looks recessed to me, but I am only looking at images online, and have never held one irl.

The watches listed in your signature are all pretty stellar, so I am curious: you seem to expressly dislike Stowa, but I cannot really understand why. Have you owned one, with a bad experience, etc.?

Which watch did you buy in this niche? The bronze Archimede DW you mentioned in your first post?



CM HUNTER said:


> I guess I'd go with the Stowa out of the ones you've narrowed it down to, as long as you can live with the new logo (a lot of people can't). For every nit-pick you've stated for not liking the Archimede, the Stowa logo trumps them all for most.
> 
> *I personally would go with the bronze Archimede because*:
> 1) It's actually German Made, not just German assembled.
> ...


Looking further at the Wilson, I see your points. I just cannot find many images of that watch. I wonder if they would sell it without the " *** USA *** " under the WWW logo.

How do you feel the WWW is different from a Kemmner?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> If you are thinking about stretching for a Tourby or Stowa, I think both are well worth the additional cost in comparison to Archimede. Don't get me wrong; Archimede provides good value. But as a current/former owner of watches from all 3 brands, I appreciate the higher level of finish throughout the watch (dial, case, movement, etc.) for Stowa and Tourby.


I see, thanks.

Is the durability of all three pretty equal, or are the Stowa and Tourby somehow also more durable? I guess that although the finish level might be higher on Stowa and Tourby, the durability will be equal among all three, correct?


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

cadenza said:


> I don't understand your first sentence. What do you mean by "hump"? The Stowa sub-dial looks recessed to me, but I am only looking at images online, and have never held one irl.
> 
> The watches listed in your signature are all pretty stellar, so I am curious: you seem to expressly dislike Stowa, but I cannot really understand why. Have you owned one, with a bad experience, etc.?
> 
> ...


There's a thread doing a side by side comparison with a Dornblueth Marine watch because a Stowa owner noticed how the subdial on his watch has an unusual hump (for the lack of a better term) on it. Use the search function on here or with a search engine using appropriate keywords and the thread or images will no doubt be available.

I have nothing at all against Stowa. My wife had a Antea KS that was nothing but a headache, but that's more a fault with the movement (ours wasn't the only watch where this movement has proven to be faulty, and not just from Stowa either). When I joined this forum over 6 years ago, I could easily see where people were coming from with the quality to price ratio one would get from Stowa. At today's prices for one, I just simply can't get on board with that anymore.

Wilson has been mentioned in the same breath as Kemmner, Tourby, and Eddie Platts (Timefactors) for basically being the same type of outfits, sourcing from basically the same sources. I think Tourby has tried to branch out some from that, but the prices have exponentially gone up because of it.

Wilson can offer a sterile dial in either the enamel dial or the sterling silver dial. He only recently removed those options from his website.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

cadenza said:


> I see, thanks.
> 
> Is the durability of all three pretty equal, or are the Stowa and Tourby somehow also more durable? I guess that although the finish level might be higher on Stowa and Tourby, the durability will be equal among all three, correct?


Correct.

For additional thread pics, my current marine watches:



















And incoming:


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## Diabolic Coffee (Feb 9, 2016)

cadenza said:


> Thank you. My feeling is for a Stowa or Tourby, but I just added my address to their mailing list to be advised of the re-issue as I research it further. Looking at the website, I really don't much like their other designs but this one intrigues me. I cannot tell from looking at internet images; are both sub-dials recessed?


The designer is a guy named Francis Del Mundo, and he's out of Sydney. It's a one man shop as far as I know, and his designs are intriguing. He likes to experiment a bit, but makes great stuff. He posts on twitter .tangramatic to see his stuff.

I like a lot of them, but this one I love. I tried to catch the recessed dials and the glint of blue from the hands. Really, this one punches easy above the price.

Best I could do on an iPhone.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## gerasimos33 (Dec 24, 2015)

cadenza said:


> I emailed Tourby yesterday evening, and Lisa replied almost immediately:
> _"The Marine Arabic in 40 will come in 2018 or 2019. The Marine Silver 40 will come in September 2017.
> 
> You can choose different hands (Marine style) with the Marine Silver.
> ...


Thank you for the additional information. I didn't know that Marine Arabic would be that late. Bummer.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> There's a thread doing a side by side comparison with a Dornblueth Marine watch because a Stowa owner noticed how the subdial on his watch has an unusual hump (for the lack of a better term) on it. Use the search function on here or with a search engine using appropriate keywords and the thread or images will no doubt be available.
> 
> I have nothing at all against Stowa. My wife had a Antea KS that was nothing but a headache, but that's more a fault with the movement (ours wasn't the only watch where this movement has proven to be faulty, and not just from Stowa either). When I joined this forum over 6 years ago, I could easily see where people were coming from with the quality to price ratio one would get from Stowa. At today's prices for one, I just simply can't get on board with that anymore.
> 
> ...


This thread, with this image, correct?
https://www.watchuseek.com/f8/stowa-vs-d-dornblueth-sohn-682409-2.html

I can see that that would be a bother, but I also wonder if that is common among Stowas or if that was a one-off.
On the other hand that macro image illustrates to me the general good quality of the Stowa dial.

Of course, if I had the $, I would probably choose a Dornbluth too.

I will contact Wilson re: the dial, thanks.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> Correct.
> 
> For additional thread pics, my current marine watches:
> 
> ...


Wow. All three are gorgeous.

The Dornbluth is fantastic, but so far out of my budget. :-(

What is the blue one?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Diabolic Coffee said:


> The designer is a guy named Francis Del Mundo, and he's out of Sydney. It's a one man shop as far as I know, and his designs are intriguing. He likes to experiment a bit, but makes great stuff. He posts on twitter .tangramatic to see his stuff.
> 
> I like a lot of them, but this one I love. I tried to catch the recessed dials and the glint of blue from the hands. Really, this one punches easy above the price.
> 
> Best I could do on an iPhone.


Thanks. So the dials are in fact recessed? I could see quite liking that watch. I think I will email him, rather than just wait to be notified (if ever) regarding a re-issue.



gerasimos33 said:


> Thank you for the additional information. I didn't know that Marine Arabic would be that late. Bummer.


Yes, I was disappointed as well. September 2017 is fine, but '18/'19 are just too far off. I wonder why it would take so long, if they already have the cases (or at least the prototype Lisa sent the photos of).


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Wow. All three are gorgeous.
> 
> The Dornbluth is fantastic, but so far out of my budget. :-(
> 
> What is the blue one?


Thank you. The blue is one of Stowa's recent anniversary watches. While Stowa is celebrating its 90th year, Pforzheim is celebrating the 250th anniversary of its jewelry and watch industry. This watch, the Marine Automatic Blue Limited Edition (MABLE), commemorates Pforzheim's anniversary. All 250 have been sold.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> Thank you. The blue is one of Stowa's recent anniversary watches. While Stowa is celebrating its 90th year, Pforzheim is celebrating the 250th anniversary of its jewelry and watch industry. This watch, the Marine Automatic Blue Limited Edition (MABLE), commemorates Pforzheim's anniversary. All 250 have been sold.


Fantastic, congratulations. They are all three wonderful.

My mother was a silversmith, and went to a school in Pforzheim for a while. I always wanted to visit the area, but so far never have.


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## X2-Elijah (Dec 25, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> To be clear, I have no dog in this fight. [..] I've offered two different options to consider, and not just one to be "pushed" onto somebody.


Well then, stop pushing the Wilson already


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

cadenza said:


> I see the 2804-2 (Marine Klassik 40 white polished) on the Stowa site, but I really prefer no date.


The *Marine Klassik 40 Silber* is avaialable for €980 in no date version with auto movement. The 2804-2 is just €20 plus. You will get a Stowa Marine No Date Silver Dial with hw 2804-2 movement for €1000 (as already posted).


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

re: Hacking

Why not reading the Stowa FAQ ?

For your convenience! Here's what Stowa say:

*Second stop function at STOWA watch movements*

>>>>The movement ETA 2801 (handwinding), ETA 2824-2, ETA 2836-2 as well as Valjoux 7753 (all automatic) are delivered from the manufacturer already with a second stop (after drawing the crown the second hand stops).

Originally the movements Unitas 6498 and Peseux 7001 (both movements are based on elder constructions) were not delivered with a second stop.

We do not offer a modification of those movements as the expenditure of costs and time is too high (though it is not impossible).

Normally such modificated movements are offered only by more expensive trade marks and we do not know a single watch in the price category of the STOWA collection which is offered with exactly this function.

Therefore we don't intend to produce our models AnteaKS starting at € 980,- and Marine Original starting at € 1.280,- with a second stop to maintain the excellent cost/performance ratio. A modification to second stop would increase the price of these watches considerably.<<<<

Not updated yet: The 2804-2 does come in a hacking version as well.


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## gerasimos33 (Dec 24, 2015)

stuffler said:


> Originally the movements Unitas 6498 and Peseux 7001 (both movements are based on elder constructions) were not delivered with a second stop.
> 
> We do not offer a modification of those movements as the expenditure of costs and time is too high (though it is not impossible).
> 
> ...


It is not a common feature. The only one I can think of, is Guinand Series 31 which has a central second hand with stop at 60 position, which is one step beyond hacking. Slightly more expensive though at about €1500.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

gerasimos33 said:


> It is not a common feature. The only one I can think of, is Guinand Series 31 which has a central second hand with stop at 60 position, which is one step beyond hacking. Slightly more expensive though at about €1500.


That's not the common "hacking". If you pull the crown on a Guinand Series 31 the second hand runs to and stops at 60. Guinand describe this complication as "seconds zeroing". "Hacking" is different: you pull the crown and the second hand stops where it is.

Both not to be mixed up with the ALS ZERO-RESET mechanism. As soon as the crown is pulled to set the time, the movement stops and the seconds hand automatically jumps to zero. This function is handled by an intricate system of levers. When the crown is pushed home, the movement starts running again, as does the seconds hand.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> The Marine Klassik 40 Silber is avaialable for €980 in no date version with auto mogement. The 2804-2 is just €20 plus. You will get a Stowa Marine No Date Silver Dial with hw 2804-2 movement for €1000 (as already posted).


Thanks much Mike.

I think my choice will come down to either the Marine Klassik 40 Silver no date w/hand-winding 2804-2 or the Marine Original Silver 925/000 arabic with Unitas 6498-1, and it will not be an easy choice.

Do you have an opinion regarding any quality differences between these two movements, and/or the difference between the Unitas 6498-1 and the Durowe 7440?



stuffler said:


> re: Hacking
> 
> Why not reading the Stowa FAQ ?


Thank you; that is very helpful. I wondered where any FAQ were, and did not realize they are kind of buried under the "Service" tab.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

cadenza said:


> I can see that that would be a bother, but I also wonder if that is common among Stowas or if that was a one-off.
> On the other hand that macro image illustrates to me the general good quality of the Stowa dial.


Went to double-check and see if there was any distortion in the subdial on my MO, and if there is any, it's too small for my eyes to detect. I don't have as good of a macro lens for as good a photograph though. Doesn't look like the subdial is as inset as the roman dial in the example posted above.










Though if you've decided a silver dial, you'll probably avoid the issue completely, as the waviness is likely an artifact from pooling of whatever the white enamel-like layer is when it was applied.

(Edit: Also wanted to note that there is a RGM EoT for sale out there, though it is only in combination with a Hamilton 22; alas not something I could consider for myself)


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Iandk said:


> Went to double-check and see if there was any distortion in the subdial on my MO, and if there is any, it's too small for my eyes to detect. I don't have as good of a macro lens for as good a photograph though. Doesn't look like the subdial is as inset as the roman dial in the example posted above.
> 
> Though if you've decided a silver dial, you'll probably avoid the issue completely, as the waviness is likely an artifact from pooling of whatever the white enamel-like layer is when it was applied.
> 
> (Edit: Also wanted to note that there is a RGM EoT for sale out there, though it is only in combination with a Hamilton 22; alas not something I could consider for myself)


There seems to be a very tiny ridge between "10" and "20", but it is certainly much less prominent than the bulge on the MO CM Hunter referenced. I think the macro and a very particular angle of light probably really exaggerate those things, and I doubt they are so noticeable at a normal look/size.

In any case, if I were to order a MO white, I'm sure that I could communicate any concern to Stowa and that they would then send me a watch with a "ripple-less" sub-dial.

I haven't decided at all between a silver or white dial, if I do buy a Stowa. I have read the thread here that compares the two, but I couldn't glean that much from the photos, on my computer. I did email Luisa at Stowa to ask if she could send me some direct-comparison images.

I looked at that RGM EoT (TZ, right?). It is odd indeed that the two items are being sold only as a pair; I too would have no interest in the 22. The RGM EoT is nice, but too specific for my tastes/needs. I do not need such a more formal watch, and am really just wanting to have 3 watches:
1) 1958 Omega Seamaster (family heirloom; will never sell)
2) Damasko DA 36
3) whatever marine I choose


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

CM HUNTER said:


> There's a thread doing a side by side comparison with a Dornblueth Marine watch because a Stowa owner noticed how the subdial on his watch has an unusual hump (for the lack of a better term) on it. Use the search function on here or with a search engine using appropriate keywords and the thread or images will no doubt be available.
> 
> I have nothing at all against Stowa. My wife had a Antea KS that was nothing but a headache, but that's more a fault with the movement (ours wasn't the only watch where this movement has proven to be faulty, and not just from Stowa either). When I joined this forum over 6 years ago, I could easily see where people were coming from with the quality to price ratio one would get from Stowa. At today's prices for one, I just simply can't get on board with that anymore.
> 
> ...


Let me throw my small Wilson dog into the fight.

One advantage to Wilson is that you can get it with a superior movement, a COSC-rated ETA 6498-2. Here's mine, sterile dial, +2 secs a day on wrist or off. The 60 hour PR is a real bonus.









and


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> Let me throw my small Wilson dog into the fight.
> 
> One advantage to Wilson is that you can get it with a superior movement, a COSC-rated ETA 6498-2. Here's mine, sterile dial, +2 secs a day on wrist or off. The 60 hour PR is a real bonus.


Is that the D) movement upgrade on this page? It doesn't state "COSC", but I'm not experienced so perhaps COSC is somehow implicit in the description?
https://wilsonwatchworks.sharepoint.com/Pages/PricingGuidelines.aspx

"D) Swiss Made ETA 6498-2 handwind 21.600 a/h, Incabloc shock protection nickel plated movement with Glucydur balance wheel, brushed bridge decoration with polished beveled edges, polished screws and sun bursted winding wheels. + $265.00."

I'll be honest: I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out which WWW upgrades would then equal the Stowa MO Silver.

Tourby upgrades are not so easy to figure out, either. If I recall, the Tourby website was much more clear in that regard a few years ago.

This makes it difficult for me to understand what are the real apples/apples comparisons.


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## rreimer91 (Apr 18, 2017)

whineboy said:


> Let me throw my small Wilson dog into the fight.
> 
> One advantage to Wilson is that you can get it with a superior movement, a COSC-rated ETA 6498-2. Here's mine, sterile dial, +2 secs a day on wrist or off. The 60 hour PR is a real bonus.
> 
> ...


Really like the look of it. How did you buy? I checked out his website but it is hard to navigate and pages not loading properly on phone.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

rreimer91 said:


> Really like the look of it. How did you buy? I checked out his website but it is hard to navigate and pages not loading properly on phone.


"...hard to navigate..." is an under-statement. So many pages, so much text, very few linked images, etc. It is very fatiguing to say the least.

Too bad, because it seems that these might bear more research. My fear is that at the end of the day, with the various upgrades (movement; case/bezel brushing; dial; crystal; etc.), one could be near or at Tourby/Stowa prices. But, I am unable to even get that far, because it is really not so easy for an inexperienced person to know what is what.

For instance, whineboy posted that a COSC movement upgrade is available, but I do not see it listed under the "42mm Handwind Timepiece", but I do see it listed under the "42mm Vintage Handwind Timepiece." Very confusing.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

cadenza said:


> Do you have an opinion regarding any quality differences between these two movements, and/or the difference between the Unitas 6498-1 and the Durowe 7440?


Better ? Technically ? Quality differences ? No.

But the modifications of the Unitas done in-house at Stowa are worth the premium since the modification contribute to the uniqueness of the watch. There's no other watch but the Stowa being equipped with a Durowe 7440. Craftsmanship is what counts here and craftsmanship ist something beyond technical judgement. It is more about beauty and appreciation. However this maybe, both are quality products, both *are* Stowa which is a quality mark as good as "Made in Germany".


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

rreimer91 and Cadenza,

Agree that the WWW website is hard to navigate - I ended up clicking through all pages to see what was available.

WWW is a one-man operation (well, he has a watchmaker to help, so I guess 2). I don't think of the website as being designed for direct internet ordering, to me, it's more of a a showplace to give you an idea of what they have. I agree that it's hard to navigate and you can easily miss something good if you don't look in just the right place.

IMHO, the best thing to do is to get an idea of the case, dial, hands and movement you like from the watches he shows and the photobucket pages, then pick up the phone and call Chris Pappas, the owner. When I did that we talked about the available dials, hands and crowns (I sent him screen snips of the ones I saw on the website that I liked, he told me what could be used on the design). And we had a good number of emails going back and forth. All told I think it took two days for me to settle on the design and about a week for Chris to build, test and ship it. Yes, this is a parts watch made from a pile of sourced components, but, heck, I think many many other watches are, not all companies make their own cases/hands/dials. One nice thing about WWW is taht you can pick from all of the available components - for example, I loved the Breguet hands he has, they help set the watch apart, not something I could find at Stowa/Laco/Archimede, and I was able to get them. I think of my WWW as a custom watch, much like a custom suit - the tailor buys the fabric, buttons, zipper and puts them together for you.

I also spent a lot of time on the photobucket photo site checking out earlier marine watches he made, I found one very close to the one I spec'd, so I was confident I'd like what I'd ordered. In fact, I am wearing it today in honor of this thread. Here's the subfolder: Marine by Chris Pappas | Photobucket

The 6498-2 movement can be seen on photobucket at the first entry under vintage movements: Vintage by Chris Pappas | Photobucket

Obviously Chris has a number of movements that were destined for Walthams, he can tell you the story of how he came by them.

Here is the page that lists most options you can get - https://wilsonwatchworks.sharepoint.com/Pages/PricingGuidelines.aspx

The movement I got is "Swiss Made Waltham 6498-2 C.O.S.C. Certified Chronometer with official certificate", it's under the 42 mm Vintage Handwind Timepiece (it's the one you flagged, Cadenza). It was important to me to get a -2 because the 6498-1s are so common, the -2 really elevates the watch. The only other watch I found with a 6498-2 was the Tissot T-Complication Chronometre, which is a hulking Darth Vader of a watch - I bought it from Amazon and returned it. Picture from Joma:









The finishing on the 6498-2 is nice but, frankly, not at the level of the Stowa. The timekeeping, however, is beyond reproach.

Tourby is probably the most similar to WWW in regard to customization, I think they are at a higher level, and priced accordingly. For me to have gotten a 6498-2 movement in a marine watch would have been about double the price.

Happy to answer a PM if you have a question that you don't want to post.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

whineboy said:


> rreimer91 and Cadenza,
> 
> Agree that the WWW website is hard to navigate - I ended up clicking through all pages to see what was available.
> 
> ...


This is exactly how to approach WWW products. It's a run down of options as opposed to exact examples for direct ordering. The beauty of a smaller, attention to detail oriented operation. Something to be said about a bespoke piece for sure.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> rreimer91 and Cadenza,
> 
> Agree that the WWW website is hard to navigate - I ended up clicking through all pages to see what was available.


Thanks whineboy for the thorough post.

So, if I understand it, just to have an idea, anything with a price next to it is an upcharge (i.e. brushed case), correct?

Therefore a watch similar to a Stowa MO Silver Arabic, but with a COSC movement, would cost:
42mm Handwind Timepiece...$695.00
Swiss Made Waltham 6498-2 C.O.S.C. Certified Chronometer with official certificate...$295.00
Case hand brushed in Germany...$25.00
Hand brushed bezel and caseback...$25.00
Swiss made domed sapphire crystal with inside AR coating...$50.00
German made 925 pure sterling silver Marine dial...$95.00
Total...$1,185.00

Is that correct?

The warranty is for 1 year?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> This is exactly how to approach WWW products. It's a run down of options as opposed to exact examples for direct ordering. The beauty of a smaller, attention to detail oriented operation. Something to be said about a bespoke piece for sure.


Does WNC Mountains mean Western North Carolina? If so, do you own any WWW or have you been to the shop?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Layman questions:
Is a 6498-2 a 6498-1 but with a COSC certificate; the movement itself being the exact same movement?
Is a WWW 6498-2 COSC more accurate/durable over time than a Stowa 6498-1 with the swan's neck regulator?


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> Thanks whineboy for the thorough post.
> 
> So, if I understand it, just to have an idea, anything with a price next to it is an upcharge (i.e. brushed case), correct?
> 
> ...


Exactly right on pricing. A base charge for the watch plus upgrades. 
I recall my Marine was around $1000, I did not go for brushing or the sterling dial. So, your price sounds reasonable. 
Rather than my guess at the warranty, I think you should just ask WWW.
Good luck!


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> Layman questions:
> Is a 6498-2 a 6498-1 but with a COSC certificate; the movement itself being the exact same movement?
> Is a WWW 6498-2 COSC more accurate/durable over time than a Stowa 6498-1 with the swan's neck regulator?


Hi Cadenza,
NO! The -2 is not just a certified -1. A 6498-2 is a far superior movement with many better quality parts (balance wheel, hairspring, some of the internal gears have finer teeth...) and a faster beat rate (the -1 beats at 18000 vibrations per hour, the -2, at 21600 per hour, and a faster beat rate gives a smoother second hand sweep and may be less affected by bumps and jars during wearing). 
All things being equal, the -2 is more accurate than the -1. That assumes each watch is properly adjusted and serviced. A well-regulated -1 could outperform a badly-regulated or worn -2. But for new watches like we are talking about, the -2 should be significantly more accurate than any -1.
Lifespan of the two movements should be the same if they are properly cared for (meaning, each could last for decades if periodically cleaned and lubricated). 
I believe Stowa uses elabore grade 6498-1s, which is really only 1 step below the chronometer grade (not to throw a lot at you but a chronometer grade ETA movement is really a top grade ETA movement that has been tested by COSC, the parts in the chronometer movement and top grade movement are the same). 
The -2 has a better mainspring so it can store more power, meaning it runs for ~60 hours after a full wind, vs. 48 hours for the -1.
To me, the chronometer certification was not so important, I was more concerned with the accuracy and the longer power reserve.
I would not hesitate to buy a watch with a 6498-1 movement, provided it was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's up to you whether the $300 is worth it to have the -2.
(WIS-ers, I know I've simplified some things, Cadenza is still learning about watches).


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> Exactly right on pricing. A base charge for the watch plus upgrades.
> I recall my Marine was around $1000, I did not go for brushing or the sterling dial. So, your price sounds reasonable.
> Rather than my guess at the warranty, I think you should just ask WWW.
> Good luck!


Thank you again. $1,185.00 for all that does sound quite reasonable.
The Stowa Marine Original silver 925/000 arabic with Unitas 6498-1 costs $1,486.06 It does have the swan's neck, though.

On one of the WWW pages the warranty for ETA movements is cited as 1-year. I will ask him if the COSC movement carries a longer warranty.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> Hi Cadenza,
> NO! The -2 is not just a certified -1. A 6498-2 is a far superior movement with many better quality parts (balance wheel, hairspring, some of the internal gears have finer teeth...) and a faster beat rate (the -1 beats at 18000 vibrations per hour, the -2, at 21600 per hour, and a faster beat rate gives a smoother second hand sweep and may be less affected by bumps and jars during wearing).
> All things being equal, the -2 is more accurate than the -1. That assumes each watch is properly adjusted and serviced. A well-regulated -1 could outperform a badly-regulated or worn -2. But for new watches like we are talking about, the -2 should be significantly more accurate than any -1.
> Lifespan of the two movements should be the same if they are properly cared for (meaning, each could last for decades if periodically cleaned and lubricated).


Thanks again for the very clear replies.
Would the 6498-2 COSC be closer to the Durowe 7440 then?



whineboy said:


> I believe Stowa uses elabore grade 6498-1s, which is really only 1 step below the chronometer grade (not to throw a lot at you but a chronometer grade ETA movement is really a top grade ETA movement that has been tested by COSC, the parts in the chronometer movement and top grade movement are the same).


That is correct, regarding the 2 Stowas I am considering.
The Marine Klassik no-date base movement is the ETA 2804-2 Elabore.
The Marine Arabic Silver base movement is the Unitas 6498-1 Elabore.
I do not know if Stowa offer those movements in the TOP (according to them, equivalent to COSC) versions.



whineboy said:


> The -2 has a better mainspring so it can store more power, meaning it runs for ~60 hours after a full wind, vs. 48 hours for the -1.
> To me, the chronometer certification was not so important, I was more concerned with the accuracy and the longer power reserve.
> I would not hesitate to buy a watch with a 6498-1 movement, provided it was made by a reputable manufacturer. It's up to you whether the $300 is worth it to have the -2.


This all makes the -2 a very appealing upgrade, esp, the longer PR.



whineboy said:


> (WIS-ers, I know I've simplified some things, Cadenza is still learning about watches).


 
So very true. The teachers here are great, I must say!
|>


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> Better ? Technically ? Quality differences ? No.
> 
> But the modifications of the Unitas done in-house at Stowa are worth the premium since the modification contribute to the uniqueness of the watch. There's no other watch but the Stowa being equipped with a Durowe 7440. Craftsmanship is what counts here and craftsmanship ist something beyond technical judgement. It is more about beauty and appreciation. However this maybe, both are quality products, both *are* Stowa which is a quality mark as good as "Made in Germany".


Thanks Mike.

I am curious, what are the modifications Stowa do to the Unitas 6498-1?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

cadenza said:


> Thanks Mike.
> 
> I am curious, what are the modifications Stowa do to the Unitas 6498-1?


Read about the 7440 in our Stowa Forum. Differences are visible to the naked eye.

Here's a 2011 prototype pic



Two other pics from our Stowa Forum:

















The aim regarding the Durowe 7740 was defined as follows:

"Permanent increase of added value by manufacturing additional parts such as screws, jewels, ratchet, precision adjustments etc. in Germany up to production of enauches. The trains, pinions, balance and anchors will not be manufactured by Stowa."


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> Read about the 7440 in our Stowa Forum. Differences are visible to the naked eye.
> 
> The aim regarding the Durowe 7740 was defined as follows:
> 
> "Permanent increase of added value by manufacturing additional parts such as screws, jewels, ratchet, precision adjustments etc. in Germany up to production of enauches. The trains, pinions, balance and anchors will not be manufactured by Stowa."


Oh, OK, I did read that. The Durowe is gorgeous. I was confused because in your previous post you wrote...



stuffler said:


> But the modifications of the *Unitas* done in-house at Stowa are worth the premium since the modification contribute to the uniqueness of the watch. There's no other watch but the Stowa being equipped with a Durowe 7440. Craftsmanship is what counts here and craftsmanship ist something beyond technical judgement. It is more about beauty and appreciation. However this maybe, both are quality products, both *are* Stowa which is a quality mark as good as "Made in Germany".


...and so I thought that you were saying that Stowa had also modified the Unitas 6498.

*EDIT:* I just read on Wikipedia that "Jörg Schauer plans to recommence production of DUROWE-branded movements in the future. According to DUROWE's website, this movement is likely to be the Calibre 7440, a hand-wound movement based upon the Unitas 6498,"

I did not know the Durowe 7440 is based on the Unitas 6498.... Now it is clear.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Does WNC Mountains mean Western North Carolina? If so, do you own any WWW or have you been to the shop?


Yes, Western NC mountains. I do not own a WWW yet and I've never been to his shop. A few of my watches have been for servicing. I've chatted with Chris on several occasions being that we are from the same state. I understand how he runs his operation. If I'm ever looking to add another chronograph to my collection he will be who I'll call. The value he offers for a 7750 based watch is just to good to look past.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> Yes, Western NC mountains. I do not own a WWW yet and I've never been to his shop. A few of my watches have been for servicing. I've chatted with Chris on several occasions being that we are from the same state. I understand how he runs his operation. If I'm ever looking to add another chronograph to my collection he will be who I'll call. The value he offers for a 7750 based watch is just to good to look past.


Thank you.
The value in general seems pretty good, actually.

I am sending you a PM, on a completely non-watch-related subject.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

I have not made any firm decision on a marine yet, but I wonder if you experts could help with a sizing question, even though I understand it is a very subjective issue.

One of the watches I like is the Tourby Marine Arabic, but the 40.5mm version will not be available until 2018/19. The 43mm version is available now. I have never owned a 43mm watch, and obviously cannot try a Tourby on for size.

The largest watch I own is a Damasko DA 36: 40mm x 12.2mm x 48mm lug-to-lug.
The Tourby Marine Arabic 43 is 43mm x 9mm x 50mm lug-to-lug.

The photos below are:
Top 3: My Damasko DA 36 (40mm) on my 19.0cm wrist.
Middle 3 (blue shirt): A Tourby Marine Arabic 43 on the wrist (19.2cm) of a Tourby watch-maker (photos that Lisa at Tourby was kind enough to make/send me).
Bottom: A Tourby 43 on the wrist (20.3cm) of a forum member who was kind enough to steer me to the photo. He sold the watch because he felt it wore too large.

I am curious as to whether you think that, in general and just as an impression, a 43mm would fit me or if it would look too large.

Thank you.


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

My personal opinion and preferences is that it's fine. The lugs have a decent curve, and 50mm lug-to-lug isn't anything outrageous. Pair it with a decently padded strap and it'll balance out pretty well.

43mm/~50mm L2L on my 6" wrist would be near the upper end of my comfort level, but those are all divers so would tend to stand out less due to the presence of a bezel. (The largest watch being a 44mm/53mm L2L, which I prefer to wear on a beefy nato, rather than a svelte strap that would contrast with and emphasize the large size of the case). For reference, I'd probably say 40mm is my sweet spot, with my favourite watches sitting in the 38mm-42mm range.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you.
That's a good point re: the strap width (the Damasko is 20mm, the Tourby 22mm) and thickness.

The problem is that I have never worn a 43mm, and at that one with such a large dial-to-bezel proportion, and it is really so hard to judge from photos of other's wrists.

One idea that could work was suggested to me by a member here: buy the Marine Silver 40,5 now, and then have Tourby replace the dial with the Marine Arabic 40,5 dial when it is released in 2018 or 19 (the case is the same for both models). I wrote Tourby to see if that is a possibility and if so what it would cost.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

I feel like 43mm with a 50mm lug-to-lug is pushing it, but would probably work on a 19cm wrist. If Tourby were to release this watch in a 36-38mm size with a nice handwound movement I would buy one in a heartbeat. Such a beautiful watch, in both styles!


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Yes, thank you.

Lisa at Tourby seems to think so too. She says that after our conversations (she is really great at replying/helping) that the 43 would fit me perfectly fine, but that the watch/dial is probably a bit too too large, aesthetically, for my tastes. She is recommending a 40. I feel that she is correct.



flyingpicasso said:


> I feel like 43mm with a 50mm lug-to-lug is pushing it, but would probably work on a 19cm wrist. If Tourby were to release this watch in a 36-38mm size with a nice handwound movement I would buy one in a heartbeat. Such a beautiful watch, in both styles!


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

OK, brass (actually, brushed stainless steel) tacks time.

I sincerely appreciate all the kind replies to this thread. I have learned a lot.
I am really conflicted and would appreciate any advice as to these candidates. I am not concerned about resale value, as I would buy to keep. These are the options I have narrowed it down to, in order of price:

*1)* *USED Stowa Marine Original White 41. *
41mm. White dial; brushed case; standard crown; leather strap; deployment buckle. 
Standard Stowa Unitas 6498-1 Elaborè.
Made in 2011, serviced by Stowa in March 2017, never worn since.
The seller has provided excellent communication and photographs.
Would come with original box, strap, all papers and receipts, etc.
US $750 shipped.
Pros: Stowa MO; old logo; swan's neck regulator; recent Stowa service.
Cons: Used (second owner, I would be the third); white (not silver) dial.









*
2) NEW Wilson Watch Works Marine Silver 42. *
42mm. Silver dial (sterile); brushed case; standard crown; leather strap. 
Swiss Made Waltham 6498-2 C.O.S.C. Certified Chronometer with official certificate.
US $1,200 shipped.
Pros: new; 6498-2 movement; silver dial.
Cons: sub-seconds dial not inset; not a huge fan of the hands.









*3) NEW Tourby Marine Silver 42.*
42mm. Silver dial; brushed (Fricker) case; standard crown; marine hands (not the Breguet in the photo); croco strap; deployment buckle.
Tourby Marine Silver 42 ETA Unitas 6498-1 Decorated SCDG. No swan's neck regulator.
US $1,315 shipped.
Pros: new; better price than Stowa; silver dial.
Cons: if *4)* is available, I might prefer that Tourby.









*4) NEW Tourby Marine Arabic Silver 40.*
(May be available in October 2017, still to be determined by Tourby.)
40.5mm. Silver dial; brushed case; standard crown; marine hands; cordovan strap; deployment buckle.
Tourby Marine Arabic ETA Unitas 6498-1 Decorated SCDG. No swan's neck regulator.
US $1,572 shipped.
Pros: new; silver dial; maybe the best size; Tourby-designed case; Tourby sapphire IWC-style crystal; thinnest (9mm) case.
Cons: none, really, except price. Not certain about the lack of numerals in the sub-seconds dial (interesting story behind that).









*5) NEW Stowa Marine Original Silver 41.*
41mm. Silver dial; brushed case; standard crown; croco strap; deployment buckle.
Standard Stowa Unitas 6498-1 Elaborè.
US $1,596 shipped.
Pros: new; silver dial; swan's neck regulator.
Cons: none, really, except price.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

I would ask myself if the others are worth twice the price (except the Wilson, still being the obvious bargain of the bunch) than the used Stowa. If they are, then dump the used Stowa from the equation immediately. If not, choose the used Stowa and enjoy. That would be my starting point personally.

If you've determined that this is more than just filling a niche and therefore the used Stowa is off the table, then I'd honestly just go with the one that sings to you the most. And for the one Tourby that's coming later, only you can know if you have the patience/desire enough to wait that long. (Even though the 43mm would fit you fine, is it really the one you would prefer?)


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you.

I am not sure that they are worth 2x. I was surprised, for instance, that the new Stowa 5), was the most expensive of all. It may in fact be the first off the list. The WWW has the best movement/PR. I simply cannot afford for instance the Stowa MO new with Durowe 7440, and adding a COSC movement to a Tourby costs an additional $1,300.

I am conflicted between the 2 Tourby. 3) is basically the Stowa without the swan's neck regulator (I am not sure the swan's neck is so important to have). The big caveat with the Tourby Marine Arabic 40 is that it may be available this October, but only if I and 3 other people commit to buy it. So, I could commit to it, but if 3 others don't do so as well it would not be available until 2018/19....too long a wait. I have pretty much decided against a 43.

I think that in my head the choices are the used Stowa, the WWW, or the Tourby Maarine Arabic 40 if available. But it is very difficult to decide even between those 3.

What do you mean by "If you've determined that this is more than just filling a niche and therefore the used Stowa is off the table,"? This watch would be both filling a niche (I have nothing like it) and could easily become my preferred watch. But why would the used Stowa be off the list in that case? Simply because it is used (even though it was very recently fully serviced by Stowa)?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Regarding the Wilson Watch Works options, I just spoke with Chris Pappas on the phone. It was a good conversation. I think the 6498-2 movement is worth it.

The configuration I would likely order would have the following specs/upgrades:
Swiss Made Waltham 6498-2 C.O.S.C. Certified Chronometer with official certificate.
Swiss made domed sapphire crystal with inside AR coating.
Brushed case and bezel.
Flat polished crown.

The dial and hands are the tricky part. The dial options are glossy white enamel or 925 silver. I am very unfamiliar with the differences between an enamel dial and a silver one, so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The 925 silver dial has no "MADE IN GERMANY" at the bottom, so if I order that dial it would likely be completely sterile.









The glossy white enamel dial (which also costs $95 less) can be ordered with or without the 3-line "WILSON WATCH WORKS *** USA ***" logo. 
In any case, these dials do have "MADE IN GERMANY" at the bottom, regardless.









However, Chris does have one last glossy white enamel dial in stock, with an older 2-line "WILSON WATCH WORKS" logo, and with no "*** USA ***" and no "MADE IN GERMANY". This dial might be the best choice.

Here are 3 PhotoShop options I just made, with the 3 hand choices. I am leaning toward this dial, with the leaf hands.

*MARINE HANDS:*








*BREGUET/MOON HANDS:*








*LEAF HANDS:*








Impressions, comments?
Thank you.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

Nevermind, missed the croco and deployant clasp. Was wondering how you got to such a high # for the Stowa.

FWIW, I would pass on both of those add-ons.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> Nevermind, missed the croco and deployant clasp. Was wondering how you got to such a high # for the Stowa.
> 
> FWIW, I would pass on both of those add-ons.


Probably me as well.
I was just trying to keep the various options as "apples to apples" as possible.

The Stowa croco + deployant add US $130 to the base cost, so it would still cost $1,466 shipped.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Probably me as well.
> I was just trying to keep the various options as "apples to apples" as possible.
> 
> The Stowa croco + deployant add US $130 to the base cost, so it would still cost $1,466 shipped.


Thought I only saw the crocodile strap on one other watch, even though the pic of that Tourby didn't show a croc strap.

I agree with CM: if as you said you intend to keep this watch forever, pick the one that sings the best to you. In the long run, the difference in price between the 4 new watches at least is quite negligible. For me, aesthetics trump everything else.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> Thought I only saw the crocodile strap on one other watch, even though the pic of that Tourby didn't show a croc strap.
> 
> I agree with CM: if as you said you intend to keep this watch forever, pick the one that sings the best to you. In the long run, the difference in price between the 4 new watches at least is quite negligible. For me, aesthetics trump everything else.


I guess you're right; compiling all this has been pretty exhausting. But, in any case straps and clasps are not the determinants. I have no idea how to make this decision; it's really difficult between the top 3. I think it's one thing if one is actually holding the candidates in hand...off the internet is quite a bit different....


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

No, I didn't mean that the used Stowa isn't worthy of being a keeper. I meant, as the previous poster stated, that the other 4 being some what equally priced must have something else going for them in your mind that the used Stowa doesn't. So, you might as well take it away as an option. I don't feel that way personally, but that's just me.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

cadenza said:


> Regarding the Wilson Watch Works options, I just spoke with Chris Pappas on the phone. It was a good conversation. I think the 6498-2 movement is worth it.
> 
> The configuration I would likely order would have the following specs/upgrades:
> Swiss Made Waltham 6498-2 C.O.S.C. Certified Chronometer with official certificate.
> ...


I really like the marine hands currently on the Wilson being offered as-is on the site. I think the diamond-like shape towards the end of the minute hand is very elegant/classy as it's own design while still keeping the overall traditional character. However, I absolutely wouldn't turn down the leaf option.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

CM HUNTER said:


> No, I didn't mean that the used Stowa isn't worthy of being a keeper. I meant, as the previous poster stated, that the other 4 being some what equally priced must have something else going for them in your mind that the used Stowa doesn't. So, you might as well take it away as an option. I don't feel that way personally, but that's just me.


OK, Thanks. 
No, the used Stowa is definitely not off the list. It has a lot of good things good for it.
Used Stowa: best price; old logo; "prettiest" movement.
New WWW: best movement; custom options; good price ($1100 with the enamel dial...Pappas actually prefers glossy enamel over silver with a brushed case).
New Tourby Arabic 40.5 (if available); best size by a little bit; nicest case/crystal/font (imo). Lots of $ though.



CM HUNTER said:


> I really like the marine hands currently on the Wilson being offered as-is on the site. I think the diamond-like shape towards the end of the minute hand is very elegant/classy as it's own design while still keeping the overall traditional character. However, I absolutely wouldn't turn down the leaf option.


What do you think of the old dial?
.....WILSON
WATCH WORKS

I kind of like it better than the new dial.

Yes, I think Leaf #1; Marine #2; Breguet #3 for me.

Another option could be Marine hour / Leaf minute hybrid:


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## Iandk (Mar 26, 2016)

Given the different options, and staring at the pictures for a while, I'd probably place the Tourby 40 as main contender (of course, personal preferences; small wrists here, and I'm a bit of a stickler for the hands).

Main downside to that, is as you said, availability time is uncertain.

Does Tourby have an enamel(-style) dial for the 40?


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> OK, Thanks.
> No, the used Stowa is definitely not off the list. It has a lot of good things good for it.
> Used Stowa: best price; old logo; "prettiest" movement.
> New WWW: best movement; custom options; good price ($1100 with the enamel dial...Pappas actually prefers glossy enamel over silver with a brushed case).
> ...


I greatly prefer the sterile (no-logo) WWW dial. The text is too thin and elongated. IMHO, the WWW branded dial looks worse than the Archimede (which, I realize, you do not like).

Regarding hybrid hands, that's an interesting thought, but you might end up having to pay for two sets of hands (I believe hands are sold in sets so WWW would have to sacrifice a set for you).


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

CM HUNTER said:


> I consider Stowa an assembler because they produce nothing themselves. The dials are German Made, and the straps may be, but that's it .
> 
> Archimede (along with Defakto and Limes) is a brand of the Ickler family who have been manufacturing cases in Germany for over 90 years. They produce their own steel hands now as well. Watches are more than just a movement.


I think I understand your history with Stowa and feel bad you did not have good experience. However, I have visited Stowa and their parts manufacture a few times, and I can tell you first hand seeing Stowa dials printed in Glashutte Original dial factory in Pforzheim, Fricker cases, straps are from either Italy and Germany, and hands from famous Swiss manufacturer (heated blue by Stowa). I own both Stowa and Archimedes, not one but several since 2005, I have yet to get one Stowa serviced. I had my Archimedes serviced, but that was understandable due to vintage Junghans movement.

I am just trying to even the conversation. Calling Stowa assemblers is the same as calling Apple a design company. There is lot more involved than assembly.

Cheers

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Bhanu Chopra said:


> I think I understand your history with Stowa and feel bad you did not have good experience. However, I have visited Stowa and their parts manufacture a few times, and I can tell you first hand seeing Stowa dials printed in Glashutte Original dial factory in Pforzheim, Fricker cases, straps are from either Italy and Germany, and hands from famous Swiss manufacturer (heated blue by Stowa). I own both Stowa and Archimedes, not one but several since 2005, I have yet to get one Stowa serviced. I had my Archimedes serviced, but that was understandable due to vintage Junghans movement.
> 
> I am just trying to even the conversation. Calling Stowa assemblers is the same as calling Apple a design company. There is lot more involved than assembly.
> 
> Cheers


Thank you.



whineboy said:


> I greatly prefer the sterile (no-logo) WWW dial. The text is too thin and elongated. IMHO, the WWW branded dial looks worse than the Archimede (which, I realize, you do not like).


Looking at it further, I completely agree with you. It is extremely thin, and does feel off in some way.



whineboy said:


> Regarding hybrid hands, that's an interesting thought, but you might end up having to pay for two sets of hands (I believe hands are sold in sets so WWW would have to sacrifice a set for you).


Spot on:
Reply from Chris Pappas today:
_"I would have to check to see if the color of the 2 different hand sets are exactly the same color. I'm not sure they are. If they match well I can do it but I would have to use 2 hand sets for the build."_

So, if I go WWW, I would abandon this idea, and just stick with the leaf hands.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Iandk said:


> Given the different options, and staring at the pictures for a while, I'd probably place the Tourby 40 as main contender (of course, personal preferences; small wrists here, and I'm a bit of a stickler for the hands).
> 
> Main downside to that, is as you said, availability time is uncertain.
> 
> Does Tourby have an enamel(-style) dial for the 40?


I think you are right, and, man, may I be in trouble now! I think this one is my favorite.

Are the hands different from the Stowa hands? They look the same to me.

Reply from Lisa at Tourby today:
_"Hi,
My boss told me it is OK with him to start the production of Marine Arabic 40 as soon as possible. But he will not change design of sub second. All sizes need the same design.

We request full payment in advance. Payment via PayPal or bank wire. Delivery time is October 2017.

Price is 1,325.00 Euro included Cordovan leather strap. Same but with genuine Alligator strap is 1,400.00 Euro. But we don't ship genuine gator outside of Europe. It would be held by customs.

Let me know..."

_What is the general feeling regarding the no-numeral sub-seconds dial? Is it OK?

Tourby will not add numerals to the sub-seconds dial, because of an ongoing lawsuit instigated by the IWC/Richemont bullies regarding this watch and the "Art Deco" model.








_
_Good idea re: the enameled dial. I will ask Lisa if that is an option, and I will let you know.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Iandk said:


> Does Tourby have an enamel(-style) dial for the 40?


Tourby replied that the only dial for this particular watch is the silver dial.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> Tourby will not add numerals to the sub-seconds dial, because of an ongoing lawsuit instigated by the IWC/Richemont bullies regarding this watch and the "Art Deco" model.
> 
> View attachment 12299482
> 
> ...


It was news to me that Tourby was sued by IWC/Richemont. I did some digging and found a nice writeup of the story here (in German so I had to run it through Google Translate to understand it):

Tourby: Armbanduhr im â€žArt Decoâ€œ-Stil vor Gericht

Here are the most interesting parts:

_Cologne, Landgericht, 21.03.2017, AZ .: 33 O 36/16: Erdal Yildiz, owner of the watchmaker Tourby Watches, was invited, and as the applicant the Richmont Group, owner of the IWC brand. Following an interim injunction against the sale of the Tourby "Art Deco" watch, a procedure followed, which prohibited the sale, followed the main proceedings.

__ The IWC's accusation at Tourby Watches is to have copied the IWC Portugieser with 8-day hand-lift, which is denied by Tourby Watches. Tourby had used his art deco for the extensive art treasures of the Art Deco era, and the result was similar to the IWC. He also emphasized the differences in the shape of the case (the tourby is flatter) and the processing details (logo, other number typo, others) Crown, no date, cylindrical sapphire crystal).

This argument was not followed by the court. In the first place, the judge presented the various possibilities of the legal protection against imitation, which can be applied to a product with its own design. Even if there is no taste protection in this case, a product under the law against unfair competition may not give the impression of being from a certain other manufacturer. 
_
_
* * * *

Since the outcome of the legal dispute is thus not clearly foreseeable and in order to abbreviate the proceedings, the judge suggested a settlement which both parties considered. Finally, in a joint meeting, the dialect should be changed to the effect that the IWC no longer has any objections to the design. So it would save Erdal Yildiz, his model Art Deco without a back cover of the IWC changed to the market and a new injunction to risk, because the Portuguese line of the IWC has many different designs ..._

And so now we know why Tourby has to take care not to produce a watch that is confusingly similar to the IWC Portuguesier that was said to have been copied.

Seems to me a lot of homage watch manufacturers should be worried that they could be hauled into a German court for similar reasons.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

That's interesting. Seems like a stretch from IWC. Although if they've handled the Art Deco Anthracite, I imagine it was hard for them to swallow their own msrp afterwards. As a former owner of the Art Deco and someone who's handled the 8 day Portuguese on a number of occasions, very little is given away by the Tourby in terms of dial and case finishing.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> It was news to me that Tourby was sued by IWC/Richemont. I did some digging and found a nice writeup of the story here (in German so I had to run it through Google Translate to understand it):_
> * * * *
> _
> And so now we know why Tourby has to take care not to produce a watch that is confusingly similar to the IWC Portuguesier that was said to have been copied.
> ...


Very interesting, thanks.
Apparently that is why Tourby cannot sell the "Art Deco" in Germany, nor list it on their website, and why the Marine Arabic has different hands, no sub-seconds numerals, etc.

I know nothing of these markets, but I assume that IWC/Richemont is a Goliath compared to brands like Tourby, etc. Also, it seems to me that many other brands have very similar looking watches. Is IWC/R suing all of them? I do not really understand what is in it for IWC, in the end.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> That's interesting. Seems like a stretch from IWC. Although if they've handled the Art Deco Anthracite, I imagine it was hard for them to swallow their own msrp afterwards. As a former owner of the Art Deco and someone who's handled the 8 day Portuguese on a number of occasions, very little is given away by the Tourby in terms of dial and case finishing.


Wow, high praise indeed for the Tourby. That is a beautiful watch.


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

Bhanu Chopra said:


> I think I understand your history with Stowa and feel bad you did not have good experience. However, I have visited Stowa and their parts manufacture a few times, and I can tell you first hand seeing Stowa dials printed in Glashutte Original dial factory in Pforzheim, Fricker cases, straps are from either Italy and Germany, and hands from famous Swiss manufacturer (heated blue by Stowa). I own both Stowa and Archimedes, not one but several since 2005, I have yet to get one Stowa serviced. I had my Archimedes serviced, but that was understandable due to vintage Junghans movement.
> 
> I am just trying to even the conversation. Calling Stowa assemblers is the same as calling Apple a design company. There is lot more involved than assembly.
> 
> ...


Nah. No "history with Stowa". We are talking about one watch I had, and I even put the issues it had on the movement itself. Never knocked the actual watch at all. It's cool you got a few people liking your comment. It's just odd that they liked a point posted by you that supports mine perfectly.

So again, you've seen an outside plant make their dials, you know they have Fricker cases (and no doubt also know like everyone else that Fricker has a Chinese facility). Chinese plant or German one, the case is still sourced so that point is still relevant. Nice sourced hands. Nice sourced straps. I understand you want to make "the conversation even" (didn't realize it was a contest, just facts about how brands operate), but I don't see how your "arguement" changes the assembler status of Stowa.

P.S. Yeah it's a vintage Junghans movement that you had serviced. That's kinda like me saying I had issues with the movement in the Stowa, not the actual watch isn't it?


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

CM HUNTER said:


> Nah. No "history with Stowa". We are talking about one watch I had, and I even put the issues it had on the movement itself. Never knocked the actual watch at all. It's cool you got a few people liking your comment. It's just too bad they liked something that you blew way out of proportion.
> 
> So again, you've seen an outside plant make their dials, you know they have Fricker cases (and no doubt also know like everyone else that Fricker has a Chinese facility). Still, Chinese plant or German one, the case is still sourced so that point is still relevant. Nice sourced hands. I understand you want to make "the conversation even" (didn't realize it was a contest, just facts about how brands operate), but I don't see how your "arguement" changes the assembler status of Stowa.
> 
> P.S. Yeah it's a vintage Junghans movement that you had serviced. That's kinda like me saying I had issues with the movement in the Stowa, not the actual watch isn't it?


Thanks for replying on how you perceive things. BTW, I really like your collection. You have an impressive mix of German watches!

Cheers


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

I am curious, is this watch a possible contender?

Schaumburg Watch "Unikatorium Marine Handmade".

I am finding it extremely difficult to find any information/reviews on this brand/model.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

cadenza said:


> I am curious, is this watch a possible contender?
> 
> Schaumburg Watch "Unikatorium Marine Handmade".
> 
> ...


Not for me. I do not find the case attractive. That said, I generally do like the watches Schaumburg produces, and owned one of their dive watches that I found to be very impressive.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

omeglycine said:


> Not for me. I do not find the case attractive. That said, I generally do like the watches Schaumburg produces, and owned one of their dive watches that I found to be very impressive.


Thanks. 
After some more research, the case is 42mm, the movement is apparently a Schaumburg Watch SW07 (Unitas 6498-1), and I can't quite figure out the dial finish.

In some other photos I found, the case looks like the Tourby, etc. "A-style" case (screw-in, longer lugs, etc.), of which I am not really a fan. I do far prefer the new Tourby case (based on their "B-style" case).
And, this Schaumburg is even $200 more than the Tourby. Plus, zero reviews that I can find re: this model.
I think I'll stick with the Marine Arabic 40.5.


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## hidden830726 (Oct 23, 2013)

Been following this thread for awhile.

Anyway. I think the tourby is really a strong candidate. Go for it TS.

On the topic about Stowa,

Once upon a time CM hunter love his Stowa tho. Just saying. But I do understand CM opinion, it's just like how i don't like Nomos for having a nonsense legal case against Stowa back then. I support his view too.

On the other hand, Stowa is more than an assembler tho. It's a matter of company direction. From what I know, it's the company strategy to source the best parts to give the most value within the budget.

Lets not forget that Jorg himself is an award winning watch maker. He can pretty much build a watch from scratch. 

Assembler or not, if it gives good value, nothing wrong. 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

Going off-topic, but since you mentioned Schaumburg, I have been thinking about this one lately:

Tree of Luck


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> Very interesting, thanks.
> Apparently that is why Tourby cannot sell the "Art Deco" in Germany, nor list it on their website, and why the Marine Arabic has different hands, no sub-seconds numerals, etc.
> 
> I know nothing of these markets, but I assume that IWC/Richemont is a Goliath compared to brands like Tourby, etc. Also, it seems to me that many other brands have very similar looking watches. Is IWC/R suing all of them? I do not really understand what is in it for IWC, in the end.


Tourby is an easy target - small company, limited resources. An easy win that IWC/Richemont can show to other companies as a warning. Taking on a Swatch Group company or a well-funded independent would be much harder.

I don't think the German court pointed to a single feature to establish similarity, it was all the features together. So it's the overall 'look and feel'. I'm a patent lawyer and, even to me, this area of intellectual property law, trade dress protection, seems vague and hard to predict.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

Hmm, Shlain has done better in the past.


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## omeglycine (Jan 21, 2011)

stuffler said:


> Hmm, Shlain has done better in the past.


There's a large range in the prices of Maximilian's work. This is on the lower end, but I like this piece as much for its subject matter as the technical merits of the engraving.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

Bhanu Chopra said:


> Thanks for replying on how you perceive things. BTW, I really like your collection. You have an impressive mix of German watches!
> 
> Cheers


Oh, wow, I didn't realize you owned watches from all of those brands. That is a very impressive collection indeed, CM! Do you have a favorite among them?


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

hidden830726 said:


> Been following this thread for awhile.
> 
> Anyway. I think the tourby is really a strong candidate. Go for it TS.
> 
> On the topic about Stowa...


Thank you. Yes, the Tourby is definitely the #1 candidate, and I think it is the one I will buy.

Regarding Stowa/CM Hunter, I do understand your point, but, like you, I also completely understand his experiences and preferences, and I have learned a lot from his posts and opinions. I am very thankful to him for that.



omeglycine said:


> Going off-topic, but since you mentioned Schaumburg, I have been thinking about this one lately:
> 
> Tree of Luck


Ha ha ha! I saw that watch on their website, and I agree that it is beautiful.

However, I was born in 1958. I do (vaguely) remember Woodstock, etc., and I am very certain that the only time I ever wore tie-dyed bell-bottom pants was for a few months in 1968-69 (it may have been 1967-68, or 1969-70...I do not really remember). 

That said, it is a really nice piece, but just not my style these days.
Plus, while I respect and admire Terrence Malick, "Tree of Life" (close enough?) is not really my favorite of his films.



whineboy said:


> Tourby is an easy target - small company, limited resources. An easy win that IWC/Richemont can show to other companies as a warning. Taking on a Swatch Group company or a well-funded independent would be much harder.
> 
> I don't think the German court pointed to a single feature to establish similarity, it was all the features together. So it's the overall 'look and feel'. I'm a patent lawyer and, even to me, this area of intellectual property law, trade dress protection, seems vague and hard to predict.


Thank you.

Yes, it certainly does seem extremely complicated.

As does trying to figure out what the US Customs duties/taxes might be on a new $1500 Tourby or Stowa, etc.
Do you know anything about that?

I emailed the companies. They (completely correctly, both being in Germany) have no concrete idea.
I just called FedEx (the courier for both companies). FedEx has no idea at all. Odd.
I guess will have to to try US Customs on July 5. 
From what I learned reading some older (~2009-2012) threads here on WUS...US Customs will _definitely_ have no idea.
Great. :roll:
If the import duties/taxes are US $20-30, it is one thing. If they are US $200-300, it is a different matter entirely....



stuffler said:


> Hmm, Shlain has done better in the past.


Hmm, I've seen some work by Zzyxx _(complete Southern California joke ;-))_ that _completely_ surpasses that, by about 10 miles.
Who or what is Shlain?



omeglycine said:


> There's a large range in the prices of Maximilian's work. This is on the lower end, but I like this piece as much for its subject matter as the technical merits of the engraving.


I guess he/Maximilian is the aforementioned Shlain?



flyingpicasso said:


> Oh, wow, I didn't realize you owned watches from all of those brands. That is a very impressive collection indeed, CM! Do you have a favorite among them?


Does CM Hunter actually own all those?
My impression, from his signature title, is that he definitely admires them, with which I concur 100%.
If he actually owns all those, wow indeed.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> As does trying to figure out what the US Customs duties/taxes might be on a new $1500 Tourby or Stowa, etc.
> Do you know anything about that?
> 
> I emailed the companies. They (completely correctly, both being in Germany) have no concrete idea.
> ...


I recall the duty on my Stowa MA (~$1K price) was around $45. FedEx sent me a bill about 3 weeks after the watch was delivered. So my guess is you are looking at 1.5-2x that. Duty in the US is based in part upon the value of the components, some have higher duties than others.

I don't see this as a deal-breaker issue . I wish the Tourby 40.5 mm case option was available when I was looking at pocket watch movement-driven handwinders, I might have gotten that instead of the WWW. It's lovely!


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> I recall the duty on my Stowa MA (~$1K price) was around $45. FedEx sent me a bill about 3 weeks after the watch was delivered. So my guess is you are looking at 1.5-2x that. Duty in the US is based in part upon the value of the components, some have higher duties than others.
> 
> I don't see this as a deal-breaker issue . I wish the Tourby 40.5 mm case option was available when I was looking at pocket watch movement-driven handwinders, I might have gotten that instead of the WWW. It's lovely!


Thanks much, I appreciate it.

When did you buy your Stowa?
Isn't there an $800 "duty-free exemption" now?
Meaning, if your fees were $45/$1000 the duty/import tax was ~4.5%. Does that mean on $1,500 I can now subtract $800 = $700 taxable x 4.5% = $31.50 in duty/fees?

In any case, definitely not a deal-breaker. I am really liking the Tourby, and their customer service has been amazing. 
To be fair, Stowa and WWW have also been excellent in communicating quickly and replying precisely.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

cadenza said:


> Thanks much, I appreciate it.
> 
> When did you buy your Stowa?
> Isn't there an $800 "duty-free exemption" now?
> ...


Bought my Stowa from the only place you can buy them, Stowa's website (well, the German department store, Manufactum, used to sell white-faced Partitios, not sure if they still do). Stowa's business model is direct sales only, there are no retailers selling them.

I think the $800 exemption is for goods you bring into the U.S., not items shipped in. I suggest you check the Customs & Border Patrol website for more info. Also, there are websites to estimate import duty - I tried one for a $1500 watch, it estimated the duty would be $75. IMHO, I would not focus on duty, since the amount will be much less than sales tax had you bought a watch locally.

One last point to keep in mind, since you are relatively new to fine watches. Mechanical watches require service (disassembly/cleaning/oiling/timing adjustment) every 5 years or so. Keep that in mind - I see Tourby charges 150 euros for that service, which seems like a very reasonable price. Fortunately for you, the ETA 6498-1 is common and can be serviced locally if you prefer. Probably for about the same amount. Just a cost of ownership to factor in.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

whineboy said:


> I think the $800 exemption is for goods you bring into the U.S., not items shipped in. I suggest you check the Customs & Border Patrol website for more info. Also, there are websites to estimate import duty - I tried one for a $1500 watch, it estimated the duty would be $75. IMHO, I would not focus on duty, since the amount will be much less than sales tax had you bought a watch locally.


I will have to check, but as you wrote it is not a deal-breaker either way.

Re: the $800 exemption, on the cycling forums I frequent much more often, there was a lot excitement about that, since everyone was posting that one could now buy (mail order) up to $800 of components, etc. duty-free from the various UK shops (much better prices, though some are grey-market, than online or brick and mortar in the US). But, perhaps those fellows were wrong about that, I'm not sure.


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

hidden830726 said:


> Lets not forget that Jorg himself is an award winning watch maker. He can pretty much build a watch from scratch.


Regarding this, I am an architect, and I have liked the Stowa building in the photographs I have seen. During my correspondence with Stowa I asked who had designed their building, out of curiosity.

















The reply from Stowa.
_"Mr. Schauer designed our building by himself. The buildings are really nice."_

I am impressed; it looks good to me.


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## dinkerson (Mar 2, 2014)

cadenza said:


> Does CM Hunter actually own all those?
> My impression, from his signature title, is that he definitely admires them, with which I concur 100%.
> If he actually owns all those, wow indeed.


I think there's a slight difference here between admiration and ownership. Much like assembly and manufacture.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## CM HUNTER (May 16, 2011)

dinkerson said:


> I think there's a slight difference here between admiration and ownership. Much like assembly and manufacture.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


Indeed.

FWIW, out of my "list of admiration" I own:
Lange, GO x2 (one is a Senator Observer so no need to own a Dornblueth or Hentschel), NOMOS, Damasko, UTS, Junghans. Not on the list include Laco, Sinn, Ickler from Germany, and nine other Swiss, Japanese, Russian, and micro/independent pieces.


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## adilbhatti (Oct 10, 2017)

COOL PIECE


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

adilbhatti said:


> COOL PIECE


Which one is cool?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

I forgot completely that I had started this thread so long ago. Thanks again for all the advice.

Anyway, to wrap up, about 8 months ago I found a mint (basically NIB, all papers, etc) Stowa Marine Original; old logo; white dial; brushed case; just perfect. So I bought it and am very happy with the decision still, no regrets at all.

The MO really is a gorgeous example of the type, and the fit is perfect.

One question: the watch came with a Stowa croco strap, but it is a lighter brown color, sort of a British Tan, which I do not see on the Stowa website now. I might want a darker strap, but definitely not black.

How is the Stowa "Croco strap brown" color in real life?
Other darker croco strap suggestions, maybe in USA for shipping, etc?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

A Kaufmann Aligator Full Cut with aditional inner rubber lining should look good. Bought it for my Schauer Kulisse.


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## Suds (Dec 26, 2015)

Btw many thanks to all the contributors to this thread - fantastic read for a newbie like me


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

stuffler said:


> A Kaufmann Aligator Full Cut with aditional inner rubber lining should look good. Bought it for my Schauer Kulisse.


Thank you.

The photos do look very nice indeed, and the color is great, but I cannot find any sellers to the USA (or in English).

The Kulisse sure are truly beautiful watches!


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

Suds said:


> Btw many thanks to all the contributors to this thread - fantastic read for a newbie like me


Same here; this thread quickly became my one and only "decision resource" when I was looking. I learned a lot, enjoyed it all, and the advice was all very good. Highly appreciated.

And, it is a very civil forum too, which is great.


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## tommyboy31 (Jan 22, 2017)

Well I thought I wanted one of the Stowa deck watches but after reading this whole thread, I have no idea what I'll want now.

Sent courtesy of Delos, Inc


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

tommyboy31 said:


> Well I thought I wanted one of the Stowa deck watches but after reading this whole thread, I have no idea what I'll want now.


I am very happy with the Stowa MO I ended up with.
To me it came down to two choices: Stowa MO or Dornbluth 99. My budget was the deciding factor. I think the Stowa MO is a super watch, and has a real feel of legitimacy to me compared to other brands at that same price point, plus better aesthetics (for me).

Which marine watches are you debating?


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## tommyboy31 (Jan 22, 2017)

Dornbl the would definitely be on my shortlist if I had that kind of money. Stowa definitely, Tourby is an attractive option to me. Reading through this thread opened my eyes to Wilson. I might be about where you were when you started this thread!

Sent courtesy of Delos, Inc


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

tommyboy31 said:


> Dornbl the would definitely be on my shortlist if I had that kind of money. Stowa definitely, Tourby is an attractive option to me. Reading through this thread opened my eyes to Wilson. I might be about where you were when you started this thread!


It sounds like it. It was a fun voyage.

Dornbluth was my top choice, with Hentschel, after a lot of research, time, correspondence, head scratching, head pounding, wallet-looking.

In the end I just could not comfortably afford/justify either one, even used (very hard to find).

Simultaneously I was looking at ~$1000 (or less used, mint +) , and ended up with:
#1: Stowa MO
#2: Wilson Watch Works
#3: Tourby
#4: Archimede
#5: others

I was not happy about some of the Archimede issues/options.
I thought both WWW and Tourby were excellent homage watches, but exactly that. Close, but not the cigar.
Stowa MO; nearly new, absolutely mint; with active warranty/papers/box; for $800 shipped; for me, was the cigar.

Communication with Stowa, Tourby, and WWW was excellent. I too was very intrigued by WWW, after I read the recommendations in this thread. Communication with Wilson seemed to support those recommendations 100%.

I think many would be happy with any of those top 3, really.

Have fun and good luck!


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## tommyboy31 (Jan 22, 2017)

cadenza said:


> It sounds like it. It was a fun voyage.
> 
> Dornbluth was my top choice, with Hentschel, after a lot of research, time, correspondence, head scratching, head pounding, wallet-looking.
> 
> ...


I've definitely got a few more watchrecon alerts too set.

Sent courtesy of Delos, Inc


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## cadenza (Nov 6, 2009)

tommyboy31 said:


> I've definitely got a few more watchrecon alerts too set.


Ha ha! Thanks for the reminder; I need to turn some off now...they send ~25/day!


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