# New Junghans HAQ Meister Mega ?



## Old bill

I know Junghans are known for their radio controlled watches. However if the spec is true then this watch will stick to 8 seconds per year without any signal .
https://www.firstclasswatches.co.uk/blog/2018/07/new-junghans-meister-mega-radio-controlled-watch/

https://www.junghans.de/en/junghans-collection/watches/junghans-meister-mega.html


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## ronalddheld

I know nothing about this watch. HAQ/BT/RF might have an appeal.


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## Tom-HK

I was looking at this watch the other day. Somehow I missed the 8 SPY spec. I wonder how they are achieving that. Apologies if I am being a complete idiot but aside from careful construction I cannot see anything about the underlying technology that is being employed to achieve HAQ status.


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## gangrel

There are several reviews I've found that mention that 8 SPY. I'd like to see something from Junghans, tho. 

My other concern is battery life.

The Max Bills are using the same movement, and look to be just a tad less. These puppies are not cheap.


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## gangrel

Not sure it's crossed the pond yet. Junghans USA doesn't show it, and neither does WatchBuys.


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## ronalddheld

I have had poor success with Junghans,so I would pass.


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## hughesyn

In the manual for the J101.65 movement it says:

>>Even without time synchronisation the time shown is always extremely accurate The time deviation range that is possible in quartz mode has been minimised to +/– 8 seconds a year. When worn normally, the watch’s actual deviation is thus 8 seconds a year at most.<<

Battery life is 2 years according to the manual. 

Interestingly they are also developing an app for phone synchronization that uses radio signal (no mention of BT)
I know people have made these before, but an official manufacturer app is nice.

These are available in the UK at a 300 GBP premium over a standard quartz £790 vs £490 for a Max Bill.


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## gangrel

Actually it might be NFC. NFC's intended as a transient connection, and it shouldn't take much to change the time zone. That's what they said it was for.

2 years...ugh. Not that bad, I suppose. It really does tick off the points otherwise, if it's as advertised, and the size is great.


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## Old bill

I was looking though the Firstclass watches website. They are currently offering £150.00 off watches over £300. I do not have any connection to the website. I just noticed the offer and thought it might be of use.


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## gangrel

Old bill said:


> I was looking though the Firstclass watches website. They are currently offering £150.00 off watches over £300. I do not have any connection to the website. I just noticed the offer and thought it might be of use.


Looks to be a UK offer. I'm getting 10% off watches over $175, which would still help.

Funny thing. Our resident measurement lovers would probably love to test the 8 SPY...and on that basis it'd be quite appealing, as it's half the price of a 9F. BUT, having the RF makes that impractical, if you actually intend to wear it.

I'm not looking right now. Had I not gotten my Meister hand wound (at about 30% off list)...I might be more interested, but I did. I'm *trying* to hold the line to pieces that have been on my short list for a long time now, or have something compellingly different. That's down to an Omega with a coaxial escapement, and the Citizen caliber 0100. And this has a fairly big strike against it for me...battery.


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## dicioccio

Nice watch, it even has lume ! They claim it's the "World’s most elegant radio-controlled watch" which is unfair to Seiko and Citizen. Maybe too expensive ?


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## Tom-HK

dicioccio said:


> Nice watch, it even has lume ! They claim it's the "World's most elegant radio-controlled watch" which is unfair to Seiko and Citizen. Maybe too expensive ?


Unfair to Casio, too.


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## dicioccio

Tom-HK said:


> Unfair to Casio, too.


Don't tell that to me ! I'm in love with my OCW-S100 but it seems that, since it's "just a Casio", unfortunately the brand awareness is very low... which of course I don't care at all hahaha !!!


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## Tom-HK

dicioccio said:


> Don't tell that to me ! I'm in love with my OCW-S100 but it seems that, since it's "just a Casio", unfortunately the brand awareness is very low... which of course I don't care at all hahaha !!!


That's exactly the watch I had in mind!


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## hughesyn

gangrel said:


> 2 years...ugh. Not that bad, I suppose. It really does tick off the points otherwise, if it's as advertised, and the size is great.


Given Junghans expertise with solar, it's a shame they didn't combine the two technologies to make the ultimate HAQ.

I might still get one, despite the daft battery life.

7 spy + RF sync + Bauhaus styling, what's not to like?


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## gangrel

hughesyn said:


> Given Junghans expertise with solar, it's a shame they didn't combine the two technologies to make the ultimate HAQ.
> 
> I might still get one, despite the daft battery life.
> 
> 7 spy + RF sync + Bauhaus styling, what's not to like?


I have to suspect they're going for aesthetics, especially with the Meister. Solar requires the dial to pass light through to the cell under the dial. Plus, it'll increase the overall thickness.

That said, I'm hoping this is the version 1 of the movement; getting 8 SPY AND connectivity AND RF all in one package is quite the accomplishment. Version 2 with solar may come out down the line...even if it's in a slightly thicker movement, and therefore more into a sport/field style watch.


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## Tom-HK

I have just noticed a video/animation promo of the new watch on the Junghans website and it mentioned that the high degree of accuracy is achieviled through a patented 'light barrier' system. Googling 'Junghans light barrier' led me to a press release that contains some pretty dreadful waffle. Here's the best of it :

1. "...maximum time deviation of 8 seconds per year" - despite this boast in the press release, the actual product spec on the website (now strangely removed, along with any mention of '8 SPY', but still available (in German) in the user manual) adds the not-unexpected caveat that this rate is contingent upon 'normal wear'. Standard sort of thing, these days, of course. The stated SPY will be achieved only if you wear the watch consistently, maintaining a fairly stable temperature.

2. Regarding the 'light barrier' system, the press release states "The ITC technology (Intelligent Time Correction) ensures that the position of the second hand is compared with the most recently received time information 1,440 times per day - and adjusted when necessary". 1,440 times per day. For those keeping count at home, that's once per minute. I suppose it sounds more impressive to say 1,440 times per day. So they use a 'light barrier' to check whether the second hand is where it is expected to be once per minute. In other words, this does not, directly, have anything to do with the 8 SPY claim after all. What's important is how closely the IC is tracking time since the last sync.

3. "Even greater accuracy comes from the SHM technology (Smart Hand Motion), which ensures that the watch is even more precise, thanks to the half-second steps of the second hand." Okay, so they have decided to make the second hand move twice per second. Nothing to do with improved accuracy. You could argue that with certain measurement techniques, a greater number of ticks per second allows for a more precise reading, but this is not related to the accuracy of the watch.

4. "The Meister MEGA from Junghans is not just precise, it is also convenient to operate. Time synchronisation of the movement takes place automatically every day." Just like every other RC watch in the world, then.

All that being said, I am still interested to know what approach Junghans have taken to achieving their stated spec. My two existing Junghans HAQs are fantastic performers and whilst I cannot attest to the quality of their more recent offerings, I would love to see if there is substance behind the waffle.


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## dicioccio

Sometimes it is very hard to separate the technical characteristics (the good ones) from the advertising. According to what Tom-HK said, actually we have just a lot of advertising and not really much of technical informations.

As for the claim regarding accuracy related to the wearing pattern, I think it is just an honest claim since it is a true statement for every watchmaker, not just for Junghans...

Nevertheless I expect these new Junghans to be good watches with a lot of accuracy, not mentioning a very classy look.


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## gangrel

I don't mind the assertion that they're the most elegant...at least for the Meister. OK, I'm probably a touch biased, just having picked up a Meister hand wound a couple weeks ago.  But the straight, 3-hand Meister models are classic dress pieces...even formal ones with the right dial colors. I like the looks of the S100, but it's a sport-dress. And I have a Seiko Dolce, which is the dressiest RF Seiko. The Meister's more elegant.

Besides, that's pure puffery. 

Yeah...nothing in there seems to relate to the fundamental rate accuracy outside the sync window, or at least not to a large degree. I suppose tracking the second hand regularly might avoid small-scale drift due to the movement itself, rather than due to the rate, but I've got no idea how significant that could get.


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## Igorek

Way too pricey for a 2 year battery watch. My $300 four year old Citizen RC & Solar does a perfect job.

It looks nice though.


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## kapahoo

Looks really good. Cool specs and case back too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lexurg

"the half-second steps of the second hand"—that is nice, but definitely contributes towards battery drain.
Also, checking the second hand position every minute seems too frequent to me.


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## LCLaddict

It's nice to see an independently-adjustable hour hand. And you can turn off the time sync function, that should help w/ the battery life. It has a perpetual calendar (until 2400, if I'm not mistaken) and the accuracy on its own is still very good. I think 2 years is enough (and quite impressive) IF the battery is easily replaceable.


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## Tom-HK

I see that the 8 SPY RC movement is now also featuring in Max Bill models ('Max Bill Mega').,

Can't see a great deal of difference between the Meister and Max Bill lines, to be perfectly honest, but I am sure they are different enough in the eyes of some to make this interesting news.


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## tmathes

Looking at the Junghans web page, it says the crystal is "convex hard plexiglass with coating for enhanced scratch resistance". Is that basically polycarbonate plastic or some kind of acrylic (hesalite?) with a scratch coating?


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## gangrel

Max Bill Megas have been announced.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f8/junghans-news-junghans-max-bill-mega-4772587.html


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## Mavrobasilis

MBM sure looks good, given the 8spy and 1/2s steps of the seconds hand and considering Junghans' use of automatic GS movements, I'm wondering whether there might be some kind of liaison


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## gangrel

Well, with the news that WWV could get shuttered, there's no RF watch I could suggest at this time, not for those of us in the US anyway.


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## ppaulusz

gangrel said:


> Well, with the news that WWV could get shuttered, there's no RF watch I could suggest at this time, not for those of us in the US anyway.


I also could suggest something: Stop spreading false news!;-)
WWV is all about shortwave, it has nothing to do with RF clocks/watches even if it gets shuttered due to defunding, your RF clocks/watches won't be affected!
On the other hand - as far as I know - WWVB that transmit at 60kHz longwave and provides time for RF clocks/watches in North America is not proposed for defunding so again your RF clocks/watches won't be affected!


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## gangrel

Wasn't intended as fake news, but it was a mis-read. The proposal does not include shutting down WWVB, so there should not be a problem at this point.


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## tmathes

ppaulusz said:


> I also could suggest something: Stop spreading false news!;-)
> WWV is all about shortwave, it has nothing to do with RF clocks/watches even if it gets shuttered due to defunding, your RF clocks/watches won't be affected!
> On the other hand - as far as I know - WWVB that transmit at 60kHz longwave and provides time for RF clocks/watches in North America is not proposed for defunding so again your RF clocks/watches won't be affected!


Bzztt. Wrong answer. I was not "false news".

WWV AND WWVB are in the proposed budget to be shuttered. Get the facts straight first before typing.

http://www.osec.doc.gov/bmi/budget/FY19CBJ/NIST_and_NTIS_FY2019_President's_Budget_for_508_comp.pdf

It's right there in the budget proposal, pg. 25:

"NIST will discontinue the dissemination of the U.S. time and frequency via the NIST radio stations in Hawaii and Ft. Collins, CO. _*These radio stations transmit signals that are used to synchronize consumer electronic products like wall clocks, clock radios and wristwatches, and may be used in other applications like appliances, cameras, and irrigation controllers.*_"


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## ppaulusz

tmathes said:


> Bzztt. Wrong answer. I was not "false news".
> 
> WWV AND WWVB are in the proposed budget to be shuttered. Get the facts straight first before typing.
> 
> http://www.osec.doc.gov/bmi/budget/FY19CBJ/NIST_and_NTIS_FY2019_President's_Budget_for_508_comp.pdf
> 
> It's right there in the budget proposal, pg. 25:
> 
> "NIST will discontinue the dissemination of the U.S. time and frequency via the NIST radio stations in Hawaii and Ft. Collins, CO. _*These radio stations transmit signals that are used to synchronize consumer electronic products like wall clocks, clock radios and wristwatches, and may be used in other applications like appliances, cameras, and irrigation controllers.*_"


Gangrel mentioned the shortwave transmitter that has nothing to do with RF clocks/watches and when it was pointed out he admitted that he misread it. Fine.

Now, about your point that WWVB are also in the proposed budget to be shuttered. I found this:
https://hackaday.com/2018/08/20/what-will-you-do-if-wwvb-goes-silent/
"_The problem lies with the ambiguity of the statement. That the older and largely obsolete stations will be shuttered is really no surprise, but because the NIST budget doesn't specifically state whether or not the more modern WWVB is also included, there's room for interpretation. Especially since WWVB and WWV are both broadcast from Ft. Collins, Colorado_."

Finally, about getting the facts straight before talking: One thing is reading/writing and quite the other thing is comprehending. I can see that you can read and can copy and paste... so far so good! Keep up the good work and the comprehending part will come naturally! In the meantime here is a hint: Relax, your RF clocks/watches will keep receiving WWVB's 60kHz transmissions well beyond 2019!


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## tmathes

ppaulusz said:


> Gangrel mentioned the shortwave transmitter that has nothing to do with RF clocks/watches and when it was pointed out he admitted that he misread it. Fine.
> 
> Now, about your point that WWVB are also in the proposed budget to be shuttered. I found this:
> https://hackaday.com/2018/08/20/what-will-you-do-if-wwvb-goes-silent/
> "_The problem lies with the ambiguity of the statement. That the older and largely obsolete stations will be shuttered is really no surprise, but because the NIST budget doesn't specifically state whether or not the more modern WWVB is also included, there's room for interpretation. Especially since WWVB and WWV are both broadcast from Ft. Collins, Colorado_."
> 
> Finally, about getting the facts straight before talking: One thing is reading/writing and quite the other thing is comprehending. I can see that you can read and can copy and paste... so far so good! Keep up the good work and the comprehending part will come naturally! In the meantime here is a hint: Relax, your RF clocks/watches will keep receiving WWVB's 60kHz transmissions well beyond 2019!


Thank you for the concern and especially for the cheap shot. May I have another? You're fantastic at dishing them out.


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## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator suggests we keep the discussions technical and not personal.


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## gangrel

https://swling.com/blog/2018/08/nist-official-response-to-closure-questions/



> The President's full NIST FY 2019 budget request to the Congress is available at the link below, including a brief description of why the shutdown of NIST's time and frequency radio stations is proposed. The proposal includes shutdown of NIST's three radio stations, WWV, WWVH, and WWVB, which communicate with consumer clocks, watches, broadcasting systems and other devices. It is important to note that no changes to NIST services have occurred, and if the proposal were to be implemented, public notice would be provided.


And that's asserted to be an official response from NIST. You'd have to claim they're outright lying about the release, and that seems unlikely.

So, sorry ppaulusz. I agree the text in the budget proposal is ambiguous...but this isn't. They do indeed want to shut down WWVB as well.


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## ronalddheld

Leave the WWV topic to the other thread


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## Igorek

Question what if we use a 10 year battery and disable auto radio sync will the battery last 10 years?


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## chris01

Igorek said:


> Question what if we use a 10 year battery and disable auto radio sync will the battery last 10 years?


Good luck with that. The Junghans uses the CR1025 lithium, which has one third the rated capacity (30 vs 90 mAh) of the 10-year CR2016 used in the old Longines VHPs.


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## FeltZ4

Wouldn't do for me at all. The perp calendar only goes to 2400.


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## kapahoo

Wrong thread...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tom-HK

I see there's now an app for the Meister/Max Bill Mega. It appears to allow you to set the watch's time using the manual RC reception mode on the watch and communicating the desired time in the form of a signal via your 'phone's speaker.

Edit : quite besides making the Junghans watch more used if you live (or travel) outside of an area of radio reception, I am thinking that this app (like the other signal emulators available) could be rather handy for any RC watch owner in similar circumstances (assuming the app works with other RC watches (and I see no reason why it wouldn't, as long as your RC watch is similarly multi-band)).


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## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I see there's now an app for the Meister/Max Bill Mega. It appears to allow you to set the watch's time using the manual RC reception mode on the watch and communicating the desired time in the form of a signal via your 'phone's speaker.
> 
> Edit : quite besides making the Junghans watch more used if you live (or travel) outside of an area of radio reception, I am thinking that this app (like the other signal emulators available) could be rather handy for any RC watch owner in similar circumstances (assuming the app works with other RC watches (and I see no reason why it wouldn't, as long as your RC watch is similarly multi-band)).


Possibly not. I tried the app installed in an Android tablet with my 6-band Oceanus S100. No joy there. There doesn't seem to be an iOS version.

The app produces regular ticks though the speaker but it probably doesn't radiate enough RF signal. Maybe a coil of wire around the watch, plugged in the headphone socket might do something. I'll try again when I have the time to experiment.


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## Tom-HK

I, too, have now had a chance to try it on a couple of RC watches, including a five-band Citizen and a six-band Casio. Sadly, as Chris has already found, the app does not appear to work with non-Junghans watches. At least, not in the manner demonstrated in the app. I tried multiple watch positions (in case the antenna in the Casio or Citizen is in a different position to that in the Junghans) and I tried setting the app variously to UK and German time, just on the (highly unlikely) off-chance that the output signal was matched to the reception mode.

Still, if the app works with the Junghans watches then it would, at least, improve their marketability somewhat beyond the usual RC signal reception areas. The app also suggests that the watch can be put into 'quartz' mode when outside of signal areas in order to prevent its periodically checking for a non-existant signal and thereby saving some power. That's a) fairly sensible and b) good for HAQers looking to test Junghans' 8 SPY claim.

I still think the lack of solar power is a terrible oversight, however, especially given that solar powered RC watches are not an unknown technology to Junghans. I mean, two years' battery life? Hardly any point having a perpetual calendar, really.


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## gaijin

Just FYI, in the Apple App Store there is an App called "Clock Wave" which syncs RC watches. It can be set to automatically choose the transmitter/freq based on your present location, or can be manually set to transmit a sync signal for BPC, Shanghai, China; JJY, Fukuoka, Japan; WWVB, Fort Collins, USA; MSF, Anthorn, Cumbria, UK; or DCF77, Mainflingen, Germany.

I have used this with several different RC watches, all set to WWVB, with no problems at all - it's really kind of magical.

It works by retreiving the correct time from the internet, then transmitting a signal through the iPhone's speaker. This makes it independent of the actual RC transmitter being replicated, so even if the wild rumor that the WWVB transmitter will be shut down does come to pass, this App will still work for RC watches which currently rely on WWVB.

I do not have a Junghans watch, so cannot confirm it works with them; but if the Junghans watch syncs using standard frequencies/formats it should work.

I do not know if an Android version is available.

The App is free, so no harm giving it a try, right?

HTH


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## Tom-HK

Yeah, there's no Android version of Clock Wave available. I will admit that I have on occasion been tempted to cross over to dark side and dip my toe in the waters of the Apple ecosystem but for now I am still with Android. There's a JJY emulator, but it appears to be a bit limited.


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## ronalddheld

I did that a few years ago, but still use an Android phone for certain apps.


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## chris01

gaijin said:


> Just FYI, in the Apple App Store there is an App called "Clock Wave" which syncs RC watches. It can be set to automatically choose the transmitter/freq based on your present location, or can be manually set to transmit a sync signal for BPC, Shanghai, China; JJY, Fukuoka, Japan; WWVB, Fort Collins, USA; MSF, Anthorn, Cumbria, UK; or DCF77, Mainflingen, Germany.
> 
> I have used this with several different RC watches, all set to WWVB, with no problems at all - it's really kind of magical.
> 
> It works by retreiving the correct time from the internet, then transmitting a signal through the iPhone's speaker. This makes it independent of the actual RC transmitter being replicated, so even if the wild rumor that the WWVB transmitter will be shut down does come to pass, this App will still work for RC watches which currently rely on WWVB.
> 
> I do not have a Junghans watch, so cannot confirm it works with them; but if the Junghans watch syncs using standard frequencies/formats it should work.
> 
> I do not know if an Android version is available.
> 
> The App is free, so no harm giving it a try, right?
> 
> HTH


I'm tempted, but there is only one online review: a UK user who couldn't make it work with 2 watches, and it isn't free. Only £1.99 but I would really resent paying for a useless app. So, with just two reports, we're in the position of "a man with two watches never knows the correct time".  A limited trial version would inspire more confidence.


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## gangrel

I'm actually in both camps...Android phone, but Android tablet hardware is far behind these days...Qualcomm lost a good 12-18 months with the problems they had. And no one was putting out a *tablet* with the good SoCs. So I got an iPad about a year ago. You can tell I'm schizo, tho...cuz I also run Windows AND Linux. 

I'll have to get the Clock Wave and see.

Oh, and I agree that the lack of solar disqualifies these for me, but...the perpetual calendar is actually an Eeek, who cares that it fails? Because you'll generally be resetting the watch via RF...somehow...and bingo. That *should* reset the calendar. All the info it needs is in the time data.


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## dr.sphinx

Maybe it's old news now: No TC. They claim to achieve the rated accuracy by using 480s EEPROM inhibition. No word about whether it means it's set individually for each watch. 

Rather tellingly, the info I got also contains the "high accuracy at normal tempreature" disclaimer of sorts. 

Bummer in any case. 

How do I know? Asked my local AD to ask Junghans. Surprisingly I got an answer


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## dicioccio

...quite disappointing, especially from a manufacturer like Junghans who uses accuracy as its showpiece...


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## dr.sphinx

Plus minus 8/year is good - as long as it works as specified (at least for most). But AFAIK no modern (32768 plus tuning fork) caliber managed to have this or better accuracy spec without TC. Yet. Some only lied about it. Whether Junghans pulled it off - very skeptical. RC and TC would have made so much sense. 

I had a chance to see two specimens in the metal - the LE with the global dial. Seconds hand perfectly on indexes on one, really poorly on the other. Wish the caseback wasn't tinted. I suppose the movement needs a bit of UV protection. No biggie though. TC or not, quite a charming piece of technology if you're into the Junghans thing.


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## Hans Moleman

dr.sphinx said:


> Plus minus 8/year is good - as long as it works as specified (at least for most). But AFAIK no modern (32768 plus tuning fork) caliber managed to have this or better accuracy spec without TC. Yet. Some only lied about it. Whether Junghans pulled it off - very skeptical. RC and TC would have made so much sense.
> 
> I had a chance to see two specimens in the metal - the LE with the global dial. Seconds hand perfectly on indexes on one, really poorly on the other. Wish the caseback wasn't tinted. I suppose the movement needs a bit of UV protection. No biggie though. TC or not, quite a charming piece of technology if you're into the Junghans thing.


The 8 seconds per year reference, has disappeared from the Meister Mega page.
An app for Android and IOS has taken its place.

It was fun while it lasted.


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## ronalddheld

Hans Moleman said:


> The 8 seconds per year reference, has disappeared from the Meister Mega page.
> An app for Android and IOS has taken its place.
> 
> It was fun while it lasted.


Coincidence it just happened now?


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## Tom-HK

ronalddheld said:


> Coincidence it just happened now?


The claimed spec actually disappeared from the website fairly early on (I don't seem to have posted about it, but I could have sworn that I did). Not all that long after we all started to notice Junghans' curious 8 SPY movement, the claim disappeared from the website but still appeared in the downloadable user manual. This would have been late August or early September, I guess. The claim still appears in the user manual that accompanies the app.

The app itself appeared on the first of October and I don't recall anything on the site or in the manual to suggest that an app was in the works. I do wonder at some watch brands' strategies, sometimes.

As for the apparent lack of TC, I don't quite know what to make of this yet. I am in the camp that believes a modern watch ought to offer something more than HF in order to stake a claim to HAQ status, and TC is generally what we think of in this regard. But if there is some other new advance in technological development that allows for consistent sub-10 SPY performance across a range of temperatures likely to be experienced by a typical owner, then I am at least curious to know more. Right now I am not too proud to admit that I know nothing about EEPROM inhibition approaches to achieving high accuracy.


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## dr.sphinx

Case closed :-(

I still think it's an interesting watch. There are enough RC fanatics around and this is a good statement piece. I am still on the fence whether I should get it or not, it's interesting on its own terms. But the disappearance of the vaunted accuracy from the official site leaves a lot of bad aftertaste in any case.


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## dr.sphinx

Tom-HK said:


> ...But if there is some other new advance in technological development that allows for consistent sub-10 SPY performance across a range of temperatures likely to be experienced by a typical owner, then I am at least curious to know more. Right now I am not too proud to admit that I know nothing about EEPROM inhibition approaches to achieving high accuracy.


That's the thing - a non-TC caliber (HF or not) with TC qualities would be a really exciting development. Re EEPROM: I'm no engineer, correct me if I'm wrong, but its use could mean that inhibition could be either dialed in for each watch, or that they could change it depending on performance. But I don't expect either.


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## gangrel

From the manual, just accessed:



> Even without time synchronisation the time shown is always extremely accurate The time deviation range that is possible in quartz mode has been minimised to +/- 8 seconds a year. When worn normally, the watch's actual deviation is thus 8 seconds a year at most


https://www.junghans.de/en/junghans-service/instruction-manual.html

then scroll down; the manuals for both the Max Bill MEGA and Meister MEGA are there.


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## hughesyn

dr.sphinx said:


> Maybe it's old news now: No TC. They claim to achieve the rated accuracy by using 480s EEPROM inhibition. No word about whether it means it's set individually for each watch.


It seems unbelievable that they can get 8 spy without TC.

If they are saying it's 8 spy only at a constant, controlled temperature, the manual and marketing is very misleading.

The 8 spy claim without radio is made in this Hodinkee review.


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## dr.sphinx

HAQ (or wanna-be HAQ) reviews - even favorable ones in respectable outlets penned by respectable people - tend to be very uncritical and uninformed (just think those Bulova specious claims being perpetuated by people who should know better). 

BTW the hour and minute hands share one motor only - so IAHH changes take a while.


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## gangrel

Guys, how do you know it doesn't have TC?


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## cheznous

I am a touch disappointed in the build quality of the Junghans. After a week I noted the date was not lining up in the window.
Took watch back and I believe they maybe just reset the watch as it only took a day.
Three weeks later same issue albeit not quite as bad.
The glass is plexiglass which I guess helps the slim shape but really it should be sapphire crystal.


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## Tom-HK

gangrel said:


> Guys, how do you know it doesn't have TC?


To put this one to bed, I have just received an e-mail directly from Junghans confirming that they do not use any form of thermocompensation. It's a bit of a VFA approach with an inhibition period of 480 seconds and a slightly unusual XO rate of 32,670 Hz.

Edit - they have also just confirmed, in a follow-up e-mail, that they can easily regulate the watch "in about 5 minutes" and that they would, therefore, regulate an off-spec watch at their service centre, rather than replace the movement. They question whether anyone would really ask them to regulate a radio controlled watch, but I guess that just means they haven't spent much time on the HAQ forum.


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## Tom-HK

Sorry to wake a sleeping dog, but today I received a further e-mail from the fellow who appears to be in charge of the Meister Mega project; this time regarding the app.

To refresh memories : this is a Junghans app that allows your phone to sync your RC watch via a signal sent from the speaker. I had thought that this would be a jolly useful thing if it could work with non-Junghans watches but in my limited experiments with a Casio and a Citizen I could not persuade the sync to happen and I had wondered whether Junghans used some special, proprietary method.

Anyway, the response came today to say that no, there is no proprietay method at play. The audible 'ticks' eminating from the app do mark the production of sync signals, but they are of no significance beyond that. According to the Junghans chap, the app ought to be able to sync any RC watch to the phone's time (either as set by the carrier or from and NTP source, depending on your settings).

So, if anyone is willing to give it a go I would be interested to hear results. The Junghans chap told me that the app was conceived as a way to help sell the watch to markets such as India, where there is no time signal, but I can also see it being of use to RC watch owners who live in weak signal areas or who travel outside of signal areas.

Anyway, there it is. A watch with an unusual XO frequency; a VFA approach to achieving sub-10 SPY; and an app to help keep it sync'd wherever you happen to be in the world. Shame about the battery life, but an interesting watch none the less.

Copied, here, is the meat of today's received e-mail for those who may be interested :

"_Regarding the App:

The ticking sound is the start of the pulse each second while the 'real' signal is in between @ higher frequency (13.333 to 15.500 Hz) & the correct frequency is the 4th harmonic of that (40kHz is for Japan signal / 77.500 for DCF - 15.500 *4 = 77.500)

So the signal of your phone is not very strong (which is also a matter of legality (at least in some countries incl. Germany) of transmitting devises - this one is legal since it's not a strong signal)

We're not using any proprietary or encrypted technology.

I never tried to sync a Casio or Citizen watch but I believe it should be possible.

* loudness during transmission should be set to 100%

* signal transfer is possible by speaker and headphone

* in our user manual of the App you can see the position of the watch in relation the phone (around 1cm from the speaker). Our watch is turned so that the 7 (or 8) hours position is pointing to the speaker since our antenna inside the watch is at that location (I don't know the antenna location of Casio & Citizen).

Starting the App you need to select first your country by touching the world symbol and you need to start synchronization of your watch.

In case your watch doesn't select the right frequency automatically you need do adjustments at your watch.

The App is using your local telephone provider's time - for better accuracy you may select under settings-general (App): use NTP time instead of device time (tick the box - internet connection required)._"


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## ronalddheld

Really should save for the Cal 0100 watches.


----------



## Tom-HK

Success! I used a 5-band RC Citizen that does not detect the UK signal. The watch is set to UK time. I set the watch to manually receive a signal then I set the Junghans app to 'Germany', pointed the speaker at the 7 to 8 o'clock mark on the dial and turned the volume all the way up. The watch sync'd and now displays the correct UK time. I also tried it with the app set to 'UK' but it didn't work when I did this. Perhaps it was trying to broadcast a UK signal (which, of course, my watch cannot pick up)? That's just speculation. A number of things might have resulted in an unsuccessful sync.

But anyway, the app works with non-Junghans watches.


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## watchcrank_tx

Valuable info. Thank you for persevering in your experiments and posting your results. It's posts like yours that give f9 the best signal-to-noise ratio on Watchuseek.


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## Stary Huy

Hello, Friends! 
Does it have _thermocompensation_?


----------



## Tom-HK

Stary Huy said:


> Hello, Friends!
> Does it have _thermocompensation_?


No, it doesn't. It's pretty odd, really. They appear to have put a fair bit of thought into achieving 8 SPY, with a curiously low XO frequency and something of a 'VFA' approach to hitting the sweet spot in terms of rate, but they tell me they decided not to add thermocompensation because of the power drain! With a battery life of only two years, I guess they decided that any additional technology that would push that number even lower would be a Bad Thing.

So, what exactly is draining the power already that makes their current approach a better solution than TC? Honestly I don't know. They have a system that optically checks the position of the second hand once per minute and I suppose that must draw some power, but it is still a bit of a mystery. I asked them why they didn't go with solar power and the rather cryptic response I got was that a solar powered version could not be ready before the announcement of the 2019 lineup. So, possibly for 2020, then?


----------



## Stary Huy

Tom-HK said:


> So, possibly for 2020, then?


OK. Let's wait 2020. 
Thank you, sir!


----------



## cheznous

Still no app for os users despite being promised for October 18 I believe.


----------



## gangrel

I suspected that this version, sans solar, might be a "let's get something on the market" version.

Power hit is processing. They're reading the RF for some period, that has to be interpreted, and then you're looking at tweaking hand position. Fine, it's safe to assume you can do that with low power drain, but it is doing it regularly.


----------



## Barbababa

cheznous said:


> Still no app for os users despite being promised for October 18 I believe.


I use the Clock Wave app with iOS, works perfect. It also works for my Citizen and Casios.
I love the vintage look of the watch and it´s a cool watch on paper. In reality it´s not so cool  
It rarely recives radiosignal when the rest of my watches do, sitting next to each other in the windotw. The date is floating around in the window within a few days after reset. Makes calendar a useless feature if you can not read it with out resetting the hands. The 8spy is probably with minimum temperature deviation. Mine is of by 1sek/2days.


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## veggfodur

Something with that MEGA dial that I like


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## Bauhus

1 second per 2 days seems completely off from the 8 seconds per year claim. I wonder if other owners of this watch have the same experience - this kind of feedback has really cooled my ambitions to get this watch.



Barbababa said:


> I use the Clock Wave app with iOS, works perfect. It also works for my Citizen and Casios.
> I love the vintage look of the watch and it´s a cool watch on paper. In reality it´s not so cool
> It rarely recives radiosignal when the rest of my watches do, sitting next to each other in the windotw. The date is floating around in the window within a few days after reset. Makes calendar a useless feature if you can not read it with out resetting the hands. The 8spy is probably with minimum temperature deviation. Mine is of by 1sek/2days.


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## nycddancer

Bauhus said:


> 1 second per 2 days seems completely off from the 8 seconds per year claim. I wonder if other owners of this watch have the same experience - this kind of feedback has really cooled my ambitions to get this watch.


My results so far:
* -11spy +/- 4spy after 21 days at 8C +/- 1C
* +75spy +/- 3spy after 30 days at 23C +/- 1C

It's currently finishing the last part of the test at 33C which will be done in a few weeks. Extremely disappointing results, obviously.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## IgorRomanovsky

cheznous said:


> I am a touch disappointed in the build quality of the Junghans. After a week I noted the date was not lining up in the window.
> Took watch back and I believe they maybe just reset the watch as it only took a day.
> Three weeks later same issue albeit not quite as bad.
> The glass is plexiglass which I guess helps the slim shape but really it should be sapphire crystal.


I have the same problem. I bought the watch in December. Date gets misaligned during unsuccessful sync in the night. It took so many time to explain this to the seller, they were trying to convince me it is okay. But finally o got my watch replaced. It took 2 months. The new watch has the same problem. Date window gets misaligned after unsuccessful sync in the night. It gets misaligned by around 1/3 of the day number each night. So in my example, after long rest in the closed for a couple of weeks, dates shows 21 instead of 25, so 4 days missed. Rest helps. But until the next night. Hugely disappointed.


----------



## pr1uk

hughesyn said:


> In the manual for the J101.65 movement it says:
> 
> >>Even without time synchronisation the time shown is always extremely accurate The time deviation range that is possible in quartz mode has been minimised to +/- 8 seconds a year. When worn normally, the watch's actual deviation is thus 8 seconds a year at most.<<
> 
> Battery life is 2 years according to the manual.
> 
> Interestingly they are also developing an app for phone synchronization that uses radio signal (no mention of BT)
> I know people have made these before, but an official manufacturer app is nice.
> 
> These are available in the UK at a 300 GBP premium over a standard quartz £790 vs £490 for a Max Bill.


Never tried a Radio Controlled watch before but just picked up a Junghans Mega with digital date display and yes it does say good for +/- 8 seconds a year if no signal found, got it off the Bay for £83 so worth a gamble I thought. Can never test this +/- 8 seconds a year as it appears I have a strong radio signal but I have ordered new batteries and will swap the battery on my birthday next month then I will know but that will be way in the future. Like you I don't understand why they are making an additional app unless it is for people completely off the grid who can never receive a radio signal. First thing I did was reset the time and it updated very quickly but it was German time which was then 1 hour ahead, read the manual (unusual for me) and advance the hour to UK time was worried if this would happen again. Well over the weekend it set the time to British Summer time with no issues at all so that was great no more resetting the time before wearing like my other watches. One thing I love about this model (10/4001 1012) is you can cover the date completely to be honest my old eyes have problems reading small date windows anyway. 
Only been days but so far I have become a Junghans Mega RC lover


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## pr1uk

[/QUOTE]
Seemed silly to make comments and not add a snap so here it is


----------



## gangrel

pr1uk said:


> Like you I don't understand why they are making an additional app unless it is for people completely off the grid who can never receive a radio signal.


That's more than you probably realize. Some people can't receive the signals...out of range, or potentially shadowed, or blocked by their building...the US station's in Colorado, so if you live, say, east of the Mississippi AND have only an east-facing window? Not gonna work. Sync is often erratic inside a regular house, for that matter.

Next up...there are 5 or 6 common stations. They don't all use the same frequency, and it's possible there are variations in the signal structure. Not everyone incorporates the capability to pick up and process every signal.

Last: daytime reception is far more problematic.

You can use an app any time, anywhere.


----------



## Tom-HK

When I e-mailed them about the app, I was surprised that I (eventually) got a reply from the man at Junghans who actually led the development of the watch. He said the point of creating the app was so they could target the watch to the Indian market, which represents a sizeable potential customer base and yet no radio time signal.

(Edit - I am not always in a part of the country where my 5-band watches can pick up a signal (my 6-band watch never has a problem), so I use the Junghans app occasionally to set those watches that failed to sync at night)


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## Barbababa

The 8spy promise without thermocompensation i find very strange. Any quartz crystal is able to zero deviation if the temerature is perfect. They are usually tuned to be a little quick in the temperature range when worn, and a little slow when not worn. Therefor landing in the +15spm range. I have quite a few quartzwatches that performs around +20spy with no thermocompensation when resting in the stable temerature of the box.
This watch is by far the worst functionwise that I own. Absolutly love the design and the idea of having a vintage style watch witch RC and a cool movement, like a Hot Rod, but this is not the one!


----------



## Tom-HK

Tom-HK said:


> No, it doesn't. It's pretty odd, really. They appear to have put a fair bit of thought into achieving 8 SPY, with a curiously low XO frequency and something of a 'VFA' approach to hitting the sweet spot in terms of rate, but they tell me they decided not to add thermocompensation because of the power drain! With a battery life of only two years, I guess they decided that any additional technology that would push that number even lower would be a Bad Thing.
> 
> So, what exactly is draining the power already that makes their current approach a better solution than TC? Honestly I don't know. They have a system that optically checks the position of the second hand once per minute and I suppose that must draw some power, but it is still a bit of a mystery. I asked them why they didn't go with solar power and the rather cryptic response I got was that a solar powered version could not be ready before the announcement of the 2019 lineup. So, possibly for 2020, then?


Further to the prediction that a solar powered version may be released in 2020, Junghans have just announced a solar version :

https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/51127/click

(still not HAQ by our definition, but still claiming +/-8 SPY without thermocompensation)


----------



## OutOfSpec

Tom-HK said:


> Further to the prediction that a solar powered version may be released in 2020, Junghans have just announced a solar version :
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/51127/click
> 
> (still not HAQ by our definition, but still claiming +/-8 SPY without thermocompensation)


Interesting. They don't discuss the intrinsic accuracy of the movement, so maybe it could be HAQ? Given that the analog display can be set by a smartphone app and they use something called "Smart Hand Motion" , I am assuming that there is an electronic crown and this is fly-by-wire? Also, the movement is pretty.


----------



## ronalddheld

Tom-HK said:


> Further to the prediction that a solar powered version may be released in 2020, Junghans have just announced a solar version :
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/51127/click
> 
> (still not HAQ by our definition, but still claiming +/-8 SPY without thermocompensation)


Without any indication of TC, plus solar, I will pass.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ronalddheld said:


> Without any indication of TC, plus solar, I will pass.


Not a fan of solar in general?


----------



## gangrel

Tom-HK said:


> Further to the prediction that a solar powered version may be released in 2020, Junghans have just announced a solar version :
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/51127/click
> 
> (still not HAQ by our definition, but still claiming +/-8 SPY without thermocompensation)


Watches by SJX posted a similar article 2 weeks ago.

The Junghans US shop shows it's up for pre-order, they're saying June delivery.

I'd probably get one but I've got my Seiko. I don't need 2 RF watches. That said...I might well get the Junghans over the Seiko if I had it to do over. The Seiko was notably less at the time, tho, so that would play a role.


----------



## ronalddheld

OutOfSpec said:


> Not a fan of solar in general?


Cannot keep solar watches charged without a iightbox.


----------



## ronalddheld

OutOfSpec said:


> Not a fan of solar in general?


Cannot keep solar watches charged without a iightbox.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ronalddheld said:


> Cannot keep solar watches charged without a iightbox.


Is a window sill a practical option? Yes, this means that the watch is always out...


----------



## ronalddheld

OutOfSpec said:


> Is a window sill a practical option? Yes, this means that the watch is always out...


Window faces north. Many decades has shown a solar watch will eventually die. With all the watches I own, a battery change is not that big a deal.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ronalddheld said:


> Window faces north. Many decades has shown a solar watch will eventually die. With all the watches I own, a battery change is not that big a deal.


This is interesting, and something I've been considering in regards to The Citizen Chronomaster. Does that mean that you would not consider this watch - or would you feel that the capacitor change isn't a big deal when the time came?


----------



## ronalddheld

I cannot speak to other watches, bit I would rather recharge a watch or get a battery change then deal with the state of charge of a solar watch.


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## RegularStormy

I think that whether solar works for you depends on your habitat, collection, and personal situation. 

One guy on the forum lived in a rather far north location, where there was very very little sunlight... he had a challenge keeping his charged. I live where there is an abundance of sunlight and haven't had to ever think about a solar watch that gets worn regularly. And one I have that used too get worn very infrequently was easy to keep charged by sitting out of in the window one weekend a season. Or, indoor light can be sufficient. 

If you have a large number of solar watches or some that you never wear, charging is something you'll need to keep track of. 

Simpler / cheaper solar watches usually don't have a power reserve function while nicer ones do (often hidden behind a button push). Not having one is pretty annoying to not know if it has a month left or 9 months.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> I think that whether solar works for you depends on your habitat, collection, and personal situation.
> 
> One guy on the forum lived in a rather far north location, where there was very very little sunlight... he had a challenge keeping his charged. I live where there is an abundance of sunlight and haven't had to ever think about a solar watch that gets worn regularly. And one I have that used too get worn very infrequently was easy to keep charged by sitting out of in the window one weekend a season. Or, indoor light can be sufficient.
> 
> If you have a large number of solar watches or some that you never wear, charging is something you'll need to keep track of.
> 
> Simpler / cheaper solar watches usually don't have a power reserve function while nicer ones do (often hidden behind a button push). Not having one is pretty annoying to not know if it has a month left or 9 months.


I have a Citizen Stilleto (non-HAQ) which is solar and has no power reserve indicator. This is very frustrating because there is no way to know when the watch will quit. I have it on my window sill every day!


----------



## Barbababa

Tom-HK said:


> Further to the prediction that a solar powered version may be released in 2020, Junghans have just announced a solar version :
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/51127/click
> 
> (still not HAQ by our definition, but still claiming +/-8 SPY without thermocompensation)


And you can now get a sapphire that looks just like the plexi. I contacted Jurawatches uk and asked them about the extra for a sapphire, £270.
I really have a love/hate relation with the J101.65 that I own, but with solar you just need to keep it charged so maybe I give it a go, a bit expensive maybe... I have been running mine in quartzmode and worn it every day last week, and it was about +2sek over a week.


----------



## Tom-HK

Barbababa said:


> And you can now get a sapphire that looks just like the plexi. I contacted Jurawatches uk and asked them about the extra for a sapphire, £270.
> I really have a love/hate relation with the J101.65 that I own, but with solar you just need to keep it charged so maybe I give it a go, a bit expensive maybe... I have been running mine in quartzmode and worn it every day last week, and it was about +2sek over a week.


Junghans have told me that it is quick and easy for them to adjust the rate and that they would gladly do so for any customer who returned an off-spec watch. Gather your data and give them a call, perhaps?


----------



## Barbababa

I have contacted them before regarding my problems, but all they would do was just a reset at that time. There is no Junghans AD i Sweden so I need to send it to Germany. If they have better service now I have not notised it yet, I contacted them at the same time as I did Jurawatches uk. Jura replied the next day and Junghans is still to be heard from... I dont know if you have read my earlier post on the issues I (and a few others) have had with the J101.65 caliber, but the RC is very slow and weak, it even takes 15+ minutes to synchronize with the app. And if it misses a synch the date slips 1/8 down the window. So after four missed synchronizations there is two half dates in the window. So if I want to read the date I need to run it in quartz mode and set the time manually...


----------



## Tom-HK

Barbababa said:


> I have contacted them before regarding my problems, but all they would do was just a reset at that time. There is no Junghans AD i Sweden so I need to send it to Germany. If they have better service now I have not notised it yet, I contacted them at the same time as I did Jurawatches uk. Jura replied the next day and Junghans is still to be heard from... I dont know if you have read my earlier post on the issues I (and a few others) have had with the J101.65 caliber, but the RC is very slow and weak, it even takes 15+ minutes to synchronize with the app. And if it misses a synch the date slips 1/8 down the window. So after four missed synchronizations there is two half dates in the window. So if I want to read the date I need to run it in quartz mode and set the time manually...


I am sorry to hear how much trouble this has given you. I must admit that I have not been in touch with Junghans customer service. The person I spoke to was the lead engineer in charge of the Meister Mega project. We discussed the technical details of the watch at some length and he told me it would be easy to adjust the rate as it uses as straightforward EEPROM setup. He told me he (and I took him to mean 'Junghans') would be happy to adjust a watch. And now, suddenly, all those Dilbert cartoons depicting the disconnect between engineering, marketing and service departments start to make sense...


----------



## Barbababa

:-d:-d:-d


----------



## Alexander-Kos

Barbababa said:


> The 8spy promise without thermocompensation i find very strange. Any quartz crystal is able to zero deviation if the temerature is perfect. They are usually tuned to be a little quick in the temperature range when worn, and a little slow when not worn. Therefor landing in the +15spm range. I have quite a few quartzwatches that performs around +20spy with no thermocompensation when resting in the stable temerature of the box.
> This watch is by far the worst functionwise that I own. Absolutly love the design and the idea of having a vintage style watch witch RC and a cool movement, like a Hot Rod, but this is not the one!


----------



## Alexander-Kos

I got Junghans Meister Mega Small Seconds. 8SPY without radio- correction is present in its manual. I put the watch in sleeping mode for couple weeks. After that period the watch gained ~ 3 seconds. So I would change 8 SPY for 8 SPM! This model in not a HAQ watch!!!


----------



## Barbababa

Alexander-Kos said:


> I got Junghans Meister Mega Small Seconds. 8SPY without radio- correction is present in its manual. I put the watch in sleeping mode for couple weeks. After that period the watch gained ~ 3 seconds. So I would change 8 SPY for 8 SPM! This model in not a HAQ watch!!!


I know the new solar model is a bit over priced, especially with sapphire crystal, but from what I have read and heard, it´s supposed to have a new/uppdated caliber with much stronger and faster RC. Together with titanium case It could be a really cool watch


----------



## 12MP

*Junghans Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde

A Bumpy Ride*​
I have always been fascinated by high-end classical watches that have interesting quartz movements. Over the years I have owned and regretted selling several, including a Jaeger leCoultre Master Control Chrono ref 145.2.31 and an IWC Fliegerchronograph ref. 3741 (both fitted with JLC's 631 Calibre Mecaquartz movement), and a Grand Seiko SBGT005 with a 9F thermocompensated movement.

I first came across the Junghans Meister series seven years ago. The look (especially with the silver dial) is pure classic 1950s, but I was put off by the useless 3ATM water resistance, lack of sapphire crystal, and bulbous case backs, especially on the chrono models which are absurdly thick.

But when Junghans added the MEGA model to the Meister range a couple of years ago I was immediately interested. At about 9.5mm thick the Meister MEGA is reasonably thin and, to make things more appealing, Junghans now offer an optional sapphire crystal with double sided AR coating. Fitting the watch with a sapphire crystal increases water resistance from a useless 3ATM to a more useful 5ATM - good enough for wearing in a regular low pressure shower. Depending on which model you chose, the movement is Junghans' J101.65 or J101.66, an analogue quartz movement that synchronises every day with one of five AM time signals: one in the US, one in the UK, one in Germany and two in Japan. Provided the watch is within a thousand miles or so of one of these radio stations, it automatically synchronises itself to the relevant atomic clock signal at around 2a.m. local time. If the watch is out of range of a radio signal (which would be the case if you are in Central or South America, anywhere in Africa, the Middle East, Central or Eastern Europe, most of Russia, most of Asia with the exception of Japan, and Australia) the watch operates in what Junghans calls "Quartz Mode", which basically means as a normal autonomous quartz watch. What intrigued me was that on their website and in countless publicity pieces, Junghans claim an accuracy of 8SPY in Quartz Mode. For example, on their website Junghans say: *"If the watch is outside of the reception range, it continues to run automatically with the accuracy of an especially precise quartz movement - with a maximum time deviation of 8 seconds". *As you will read further down, after 5 months of ownership and returning the watch to Junghans for a replacement, this claim has proved to be blatantly false and totally misleading.

I was determined to learn more about the Meister MEGA range, but found much of the material on Junghans' website and in publicity materials to be confusing, contradictory and in many cases just plain wrong. In essence, there are two families of Meister MEGA models: the Meister MEGA with a central second hand and Junghans' J101.65 movement, and the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with its second hand in a sub dial at the six o'clock position and Junghans' J101.66 movement. Each is available with silver or blue dial, a plexiglass or sapphire crystal, and leather or steel bracelet. The Meister MEGA is available with a gold PVD case, but for some reason the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is not. There is also a special edition of both with a map of the world printed on the dial, and a sapphire crystal, see-through case back, and steel bracelet as standard although, again for some unintelligible reason, the special edition of the Meister MEGA is only available with a blue dial and the special edition of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is only available with a silver dial. At the risk of indulging in national stereotyping, one would have expected a greater degree of rigorous logical German thinking applied to the model line-up, particularly given that Junghans makes such a big deal about being German and describes itself as the "German Watch".

I struggled to make sense of the descriptions of these watches on Junghans' website. For example, the website said that the Meister MEGA is 8.9mm thick, the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is 9.2mm thick, and the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is 9.6mm thick. There is no explanation of the reason for the different thicknesses, and the website did not make clear whether the 8.9mm and 9.2mm measurements for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde apply to the watches with the standard plexiglass or the optional sapphire crystal, or both. There was also no explanation of whether the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is due to the sapphire crystal or the see through case back, or both. To further confuse matters, the pictures of the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back show the case back is engraved 5ATM, whereas the Meister MEGA and standard Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde have case backs engraved 3ATM. There is also no explanation of how the watches achieve 8SPY in Quartz Mode. The frequency is a standard 32,768Hz and there is no mention of thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology.

I emailed Junghans' International Sales Director asking for clarification on thickness, water resistance, and accuracy in Quartz Mode, and waited for a reply. Three weeks passed with no reply, so I emailed again. Still no reply, so I emailed the company's CEO. Again, no response. A week later I sent a strongly worded email to the CEO basically telling him to get a grip on his company, and the following day got a phone call. The lady who called me explained that when Junghans fit a sapphire crystal, water resistance goes up from 3ATM to 5ATM because of the tighter fit of the sapphire compared to the plexiglass. But she could not explain the confusion around thickness of the various models, or explain the basis for the company's 8SPY claim while in Quartz Mode. She referred me at this point to the company's Head of Product Development, with whom I then had a series of helpful emails, some of which are reproduced below.

In summary, the company's Head of Product Development said that Junghans had initially used a slightly thicker case for the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde because the J101.66 movement is slightly thicker than the J101.65 movement due to the small second hand at six o'clock. He said that once the definitive production design was finalised, Junghans decided to use the slightly thicker case for both models. He said that this has not been communicated through to marketing, who still were under the impression that the two cases sizes were slightly different. He confirmed that there is no difference in thickness between the steel case back and the see through case back, and that the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde Special Edition is entirely due to the sapphire crystal. He confirmed that water resistance for all models is 5ATM when fitted with a sapphire crystal, but was not able to tell me why Junghans do not engrave the case back of models with the optional sapphire crystal with 5ATM instead of 3ATM, whereas the special edition with a sapphire crystal as standard is engraved 5ATM. For this, he referred me to someone in marketing, who emailed back a rather pathetic reply saying that this was due to cost savings. This makes no sense given that each case back is individually engraved with a unique watch serial number. The Head of Product Development did tell me though that if I bought either model with the optional sapphire crystal, Junghans would provide a certificate of water resistance testing at 5ATM, even though they would not be able to put 5ATM on the case back. This sounded slightly ridiculous to me, but I let it pass.

The Head of Product Development and I then engaged in an interesting email exchange about Junghans' claimed 8SPY in Quartz Mode. He confirmed that the watch does not have thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology, and instead relies on some sort of customised EEPROM to maintain accuracy. He said that Junghans' accuracy claims under Quartz Mode *require that the watch is kept at a constant 27*C*. Is common knowledge that there are loads (probably the majority?) of cheap non thermocompensated watches that can achieve 8SPY if kept at a constant temperature. Junghans condition of constant temperature shows that the 8SPY claim is utter nonsense for anyone who wears their watch all day every day. I reproduce some of the email correspondence below:

*19th May 2020 (from me to Junghans)*
_Page 45 of the attached English Language user manual for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde says that accuracy in "Quartz Mode" (i.e. when NOT connected to one of the 5 time signal stations) is +/- 8 seconds a year. Normal quartz watches are accurate to 10 to 15 seconds a month, or 120 to 180 seconds a year. The accuracy of a normal quartz watch is affected by the precision of the oscillator and the variations in temperature that the watch experiences during a normal day (sleep, exercise, shower, summer, winter, etc). Certain manufactures produce High Accuracy Quartz movements for example: Citizen Chronomaster +/- 5 Seconds a year, Grand Seiko 9F +/- 9 Seconds a year, Bulova 262 kHz UHF +/- 10 Seconds a year, and various watches fitted with the ETA F06.411 "Precidrive" movement +/- 10 seconds a year, etc. etc. These movements are either thermo-compensated, or operate at much higher frequencies than normal quartz movements. I do not understand how the Junghans 101.65 and 101.66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is not thermo-compensated, and would like to know how you can make this accuracy claim._

*20th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
_Our watch is working with a 32kHz quartz without thermo-compensation. Precidrive is using the quartz and IC in one package for easy temperature measuring - we can't do that because we're using a big advanced Microcontroller-IC & Receiver IC. Junghans ever used higher frequencies to increase accuracy but this will reduce battery life significantly. Japanese Brands are using an additional IC to measure temperature so that the MCU can correct that. But this also reduces battery life! They don't care that much since they have solar or other rechargeable function. Junghans develops a radio-controlled battery watch with 3 (!) motors and small dimension - so one of our focus was on battery life (and we're also using an advanced bidirectional control function between rotor and IC - with asservissement). In order to achieve a high accuracy we're using a re-programmable (EEPROM) inhibition system with very high inhibition time (480 seconds) leading to a high accuracy under normal temperature. To correct the deviation we're controlling the motor cycle time by software (means that the next motor pulse will not come exactly after 1 seconds - it will be a bit more or less depending on the oscillator)._

*20th May 2020 (from me to Junghans).*
_The explanation from [x] does not answer my question. In summary he says that you use a 32KHz (actually 32,768 Hz) quartz oscillator and a programmable inhibition compensator to calibrate the motor impulses. 32,768 Hz is a standard frequency for quartz, and inhibition compensation is a common technique for adjusting quartz watches. Inhibition compensation allows the watch to be calibrated by the watchmaker at the factory, but it does NOT allow the watch to self-compensate for variations in temperature once it has left the watchmaker and is returned to the customer. The temperature coefficient of frequency for a quartz watch driven by a 32,768 Hz quartz oscillator is .035ppm / *C^2. Therefore a watch that is calibrated at 28*C but which is used in an environment where the average temperature is 18*C will lose 3.5ppm which is 110 seconds a year. This is almost 14 times the maximum annual deviation of 8 seconds a year that you specify. [X] says that the movement is accurate "under normal temperature" conditions, but what does "normal" mean? If "normal" means that the watch is only accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is in your temperature-controlled factory, then this is NOT normal conditions! Therefore I still do not understand how the J101.65/66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use. An accuracy of +/- 8 seconds a year on the wrist in normal daily use is only seen with a) ultra-high frequency oscillators, or b) dual oscillators, or c) thermo-compensation, or a combination of these technologies. I look forward to an explanation of how the J101.65/66 movement can achieve +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use on the wrist, and not just in your temperature-controlled factory. On a separate note, [X] says that you do not use thermo-compensation because of the effect that this has on battery life. Junghans says that the J101.65/66 movement using a CR1025 lithium battery needs a new battery every two years. For your information, A 2 year battery life is considered relatively short, although I do accept that your bi-directional stepper motors and other technologies in the J101.65/66 movement reduce battery life compared to other movements that do not use these technologies. _

*27th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
_We're using a 32,760 Hz (due to some reasons it's not the common 32,768 Hz) quartz. And you're right: inhibition is a common method. The difference to others is that we're using a microcontroller (mask programmed) in combination with a EEPROM with a lot of software (made from us). Your calculation about temperature drift is right. And we're doing the calibration at around 27°C which we evaluated is about the average temperature when wearing the watch at the wrist. The effect of outside temperature is not much (when wearing the watch) but we're aware that there is an effect because skin temperature is not the same with all people and temperature is lower when having a lot of hairs. 'Normal condition' is a description from our marketing and it's the same wording as other brands are using. This is common and - you're right: a bit misleading. The latest development from Citizen for example has an accuracy (or max. deviation) of 1s/year (which is per calculation almost 1,3). They said: 'under normal conditions'. They are using a high frequency quartz with high current consumption. As you know whether using inhibition or high frequency or so: the mentioned accuracy is always based on one temperature only. And even high frequency quartz watches will have a high deviation at lower or higher temperatures. That's why those watches are much more precise than COSC requirement at 23°C. But it 8°C and 38°C they can't achieve the requirement from COSC. So without temperature compensation a quartz watch can't be a quartz-chronometer._

So, there we have it. Junghans admit that their 8SPY claim is only valid under perfect conditions of little or no temperature variation from 27*C. By this point I felt that I understood the watch as well as I was going to, and started looking for the best place to buy it. Junghans have an official importer in the UK, which has appointed several authorised agents. There are also number of unofficial sellers and outlets online, one of which was able to undercut quite significantly the price offered by the main UK dealer. I spoke to the official importer about this, who told me that Junghans' warranty is only valid if the watch is bought through an authorised agent, or through the importer. The official importer implied that they frequently have problems with Junghans watches and it would be better to buy it through official channels. I placed an order through the biggest authorised UK agent for a Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a silver dial, and an optional sapphire crystal. The agent was able to get the importer to get Junghans to supply the watch with a see-through case back at no extra cost, but Junghans would not change the engraving from 3ATM to 5ATM to reflect the watch's actual water resistance. Three weeks later the watch arrived.

The watch is beautiful, elegant, and intelligently designed. First impressions are that the watch is all dial. There is no bezel and no rehault, and only 1mm between the edge of the sapphire crystal and the edge of the watch. The convex dial is lovely; a matt silver with highly polished steel markers applied at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. The steel hour markers have a low profile, which helps keep the watch thin. The marker at 12 o'clock is slightly broader than the markers at 3, 6 and 9. The markers at 1, 2, 4, 5 etc are a printed fine line that looks superb and balanced. There is no lume on the dial or the markers. Apart from the steel markers and the printed markers, the only other things on the dial are Junghans' 8-pointed star logo, the company name, and the word MEGA in upper case. All very restrained, sophisticated, and elegant. I do wonder though about the name "MEGA" which, in the context of a quartz watch, would imply an oscillator frequency in the millions of Hertz. The MEGA's oscillator runs in the thousands of Hertz (i.e. KHz), not millions of Hertz (i.e. MHz). Again, maybe a bit misleading? Seconds are displayed on a large, slightly recessed sub dial at 6 o'clock. The second hand moves in half-second increments which, given that the oscillator frequency is 32,768Hz (2 to the power of 15 = 32,768) is something that any quartz watch can do. The date is displayed behind a window - perhaps a little too recessed for my liking, but probably the best that can be done given the convex shape of the dial. According to Junghans, the watch has three separate stepper motors, one for each hand. This allows the hands to move independently of each other. For example, the minute hand does not move until the second had hits the 60 second mark, at which point it advances smoothly to the next minute. The date similarly moves independently, although I do not understand how it does this without its own separate motor. I ordered the watch with the optional sapphire crystal. The crystal is AR coated on both sides, with little if any blueing visible under most lighting conditions. There is also hardly any distortion at the edges. Junghans were kind enough to also supply the original plexiglass crystal. When comparing the two, you can see that the plexiglass is 0.4mm thinner, and is gently convex, whereas the sapphire crystal is more of a top hat, but not entirely flat on top. This slim elegance continues into the vertical profile of the watch, which cleverly tapers in towards the case back, so that the case appears to be only 2mm or so thick - the rest being hidden by the tapering profile which sits well into one's wrist. It is a very clever design trick and from most angles, the watch looks super slim. Despite its 38.4mm width, the watch measures only 42.5mm lug-to-lug. It achieves this by mounting the lugs onto the tapered part of the watch, thereby enabling the bracelet pins to sit remarkably close to the edge of the watch. On the side of the case there is a small, unguarded winding crown with two pull-out stops, and also an all but invisible pusher, used to set the time and synchronisation. The case back is held onto the watch with five screws. Junghans fitted my watch with the see-through case back normally reserved for the special edition Meister MEGA. The see-through crystal is much more heavily tinted than it appears in Junghans' website and other publicity materials. When I queried this, Junghans told me that they changed to a darker tint because the lack of heavy tinting was interfering with radio reception. This does not make sense to me, but maybe someone else can comment? The dark tinting of the see through case back means that the movement is not easily visible, which is a shame as it is fascinating to look at. I initially ordered my watch with Junghans' cordovan leather strap, but as you will read further down, I received the stainless steel bracelet some months later. The quality of the cordovan leather strap is not particularly high. It is thin, flimsy, and rather cheap-looking, and I would imagine that anyone buying this watch would want to buy a decent leather band with a bit more thickness and substance to it.








Junghans advertises a number of innovative features in its J101.65 and J101.66 movements. Some of these sound like marketing fluff but, for what it is worth, they are: i) ITC (Intelligent Time Correction) technology which synchronises the position of the second hand against the most recently received time information 1,440 times a day. In addition, the position of hour and minute hands gets checked daily by something Junghans calls a "Light Barrier" and the position of the date once a month. If necessary, e.g. after a shock or interference from a magnetic field, a correction is made, ii) SHM (Smart Hand Motion) technology which ensures precise indication of the seconds is by displaying the seconds in half-second steps, iii) Advanced Moving Function (AMF) which moves the hands a fraction of a second before the time changes. As a result what is shown is the actual time without any delay at all, and iv) a supposedly super-accurate quartz movement which Junghans claims is accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode (i.e. when the watch is out of range of a radio signal).

Junghans claims a two-year battery life when used in radio controlled mode. The watch uses a CR1025 (i.e. 10mm diameter x 2.5mm thick) 3 volt lithium battery, which is typically rated at 30mAh. This is a low power output when compared to most 3 volt button cells. While I am sure that Junghans looked at other cell sizes, they would have been limited by i) the need to use lithium manganese dioxide chemistry to provide 3v (the more common silver oxide button cells, normally designated by the SR prefix, only provide 1.5v), and ii) the overall depth available which, given the thinness of the movement, is not much. Even so, a CR1225 (i.e. 12mm x 2.5mm) button cell would be good for 50mAh, i.e. almost twice the CR1025 and only 2mm wider, and a CR1130 would provide 70mAh.










The watch has two modes of operation: normal radio controlled mode and "Quartz Mode" which is when the radio reception is switched off. According to Junghans, the watch in Quartz Mode is accurate to 8SPY. Putting the watch into Radio Controlled mode is a simple as pressing the side pusher in and holding for a couple of seconds. The watch responds with a fascinating display of different hands twirling around in different directions at different speeds before it settles down, locks in on a radio signal, and synchronises. Once in Radio Controlled mode there is no need to do anything more, and the watch synchronises itself every night at around 2a.m. and stays in Radio Controlled mode. Pushing the side button in and holding it in tells the watch to tell you which time signal station it is locked onto. It does this by moving the seconds hand to one of several different positions on the dial. You note this position then flip the watch over where a map is printed on the case-back. Personally, I do not see what the point of this is, but I suppose someone might find it useful. Watches with the see-though case back have the map printed on the dial instead of the case back, which I find a bit tacky. If you want to keep the watch in radio Controlled mode but are out of range of a radio station, Junghans have an iPhone app that emits a whale-like clicking noise which can be used to synch the watch. It is easy to use and can be set to use the iPhone's internal clock, or the NTC server. Junghans recommend using the NTC server, but do not offer any explanation as to why. I ran the watch in radio controlled mode for a few days and it works perfectly, keeping absolutely in synch with atomic time. But I was much more interested to try out Quartz Mode and test Junghans' claim of 8SPY.

Putting the watch into Quartz Mode and setting the correct year, month, date, and time is a bit fiddly, requiring pushing the pusher at different times and for different periods of time while the crown is in different positions. It is all set out clearly in the instruction manual. I put the watch into Quartz Mode and synchronised the watch using the time display on my iPhone. After one week, and with great anticipation, I checked the watch against my iPhone and was shocked to see that the watch had lost almost 5 seconds. I reset the watch, re-synched it and tried again - with the same result. I tried the same thing a number of times again, but used different references for setting the time such as WWV on shortwave, the telephone time speaking clock, time.com, the Junghans app time display, etc always using the same reference to set and the check the time after a week. I even changed the battery, making sure to buy a new CR1025 cell with several years left before expiry (when changing the battery I noticed that Junghans had mistakenly fitted a battery cover that said J101.65, not J101.66). The watch continued to lose approximately 5 seconds a week, which is approximately 260 seconds a year which is more than 30x the maximum deviation of 8SPY that Junghans claims. Something was clearly wrong. I also noticed that the hour hand was not lined up perfectly with the hour marker when the minute hand was at 12 o'clock. This really bugged me, particularly given that Junghans publishes a lot of PR fluff about its "light barrier" system that checks that the hands are correctly aligned.

I emailed Junghans Head of Product Development again and received the following reply:

_A standard quartz movement (i.e. from Swatch) is adjusted to +/-0.5 seconds a day while the Meister Mega is adjusted to +/- 8 seconds a year - both at 23°C. Anyway both movements are not temperature compensated so the accuracy will change with the temperature. The temperature drift for both movements follow a parabolic curve with a vertex of the parabola at 23°C. In case there is an increase or decrease of temperature the frequency will get lower and the watch is getting slower by following the below function:

f = f0 *[1-0,04ppm/°C2 * (T-T0)2]
f: resulting frequency at temperature
f0: frequency at 23°C
-0,04ppm/°C2 : the maximum parabolic coefficient
T: actual temperature 
T0: 23°C

The actual deviation is a sum of the temperature effect and the basic adjustment at 23°C. So if the cheap Swatch watch is advertised with +/-0.5 seconds a day or a Junghans with +/- 8 seconds a year this can be considered as misleading since it's both only at 23°C but this is a common practice and understanding in watch industry. Anyway we'll review our advertisement to be more precise on this.

Regarding the quartz frequency: the watch (Microcontroller) is getting a 32,768 Hz Signal indirect from the quartz. But the quartz has 32,760 Hz. This 32,760 Hz quartz is used for the receiver IC as a mixer together with another quartz. The resulting frequency at Microcontroller after pass through the receiver IC is 32,768 Hz.

The tolerance in gear travel is less than 1 minute but there is also some tolerance in hand assembling, dial, dial fixation etc. We perform the test at 6 o'clock and the maximum deviation is allowed to be +/- 2 minutes. So your misalignment with 7 minutes is definitely our mistake and we really apologise for that._

I contacted the official UK importer about the matter and received the most extraordinary, bizarre response. Basically, they told me that Junghans had decided that I was a "difficult customer" because of my frequent emails to the company (most of which went unanswered) and that it had been decided to offer me a full refund. When I pointed out that my watch i) was quite clearly NOT accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode, and ii) had an hour hand that did not line up accurately with the hour markers, the official UK importer said that Junghans was not Patek Philippe and that I was being unreasonable in expecting such high quality from a £1,000 watch. They said that I was clearly far more knowledgeable than most other customers and that, because of this, I would never be satisfied, no matter what Junghans did. I slightly got the impression that the official UK importer was frustrated with Junghans, possibly over misleading marketing claims or even quality control issues. Nonetheless, I was pretty annoyed with the UK importer and told them that I had spent good money on a watch and wanted the problem sorted out. After a week, they came back to me saying that Junghans would supply a replacement watch, and would take particular care to calibrate it and check that the hands were correctly aligned. Junghans wanted my watch back so that they could use the sapphire crystal (fair enough) and quoted a two week turnaround time. I dropped the watch off at the UK importer, and it was sent off to Junghans. About a week later I received an official apology from Junghans admitting that the hour hand had not been correctly aligned, and confirming that they would calibrate the new watch at 27*C, instead of the normal 23*C. This made more sense to me given that normal skin temperature is around 34*C. In light of Junghans' official apology, I told Junghans' official UK importer that I wanted Junghans to supply me with the optional stainless steel bracelet at no cost, as a way of compensating me for the trouble they had put me to . To their credit, Junghans agreed, and one week later the replacement watch arrived, resplendent in its stainless steel bracelet.

I wore the watch in Radio Controlled mode for a week to make sure that everything was working, which it was. The stainless steel bracelet is beautifully made. It has 9 segments across, 5 brushed and 4 highly polished, and a smooth, secure, and well-engineered butterfly clasp. Adjustment is via pins, and the whole bracelet exudes quality. I think it would look better with 7 or even 5 segments across instead of 9, but it still looks and feels superb. After a week of wearing it, I decided that the 4 highly polished segments were out of character with the watch, and decided to have them refinished in a fine brushed finish, to match the other 5 segments. I have a master watchmaker who has done outstanding high-quality work for me before, and he agreed to refinish the bracelet so that it was entirely brushed, and also to refinish the tops of the lugs so that they match the bracelet. I made it clear to him that he was not to disassemble the watch, or even remove the case back, and agreed a one to two week turnaround time at a reasonable cost. Before sending him the watch, I set it to Quartz Mode and synchronised the time, reasoning that it would spend the next couple of weeks in a stable environment.








One and a half weeks later I got the watch back and congratulated the master watchmaker on an outstanding job. I was also eager to check the watch's timekeeping in Quartz Mode and was delighted to see that it had kept absolutely perfect time during its trip to the watchmaker (I confirmed with him that he had not re-set the time himself). For the first time in months I was now truly happy with the watch.

My happiness was not to last though. Over the following two weeks of operation in Quartz Mode the watch started losing time again. The deviation was now down to 3 seconds a week, an improvement on the earlier 5 seconds a week, but still nowhere near Junghans' promised 8SPY. The fact that the watch had kept perfect time during its 1 ½ weeks with the master watchmaker told me that there something about my environment or my use of the watch that was causing it to run slow. The reason that I always insist on my watches being water resistant to at least 5 ATM is that I wear them in the shower (yes, I know that 10 ATM is recommended&#8230. Could this be what was causing the watch to run slow? I measured the water temperature coming out of the shower head at 42.5*C. My shower is 10 minutes at most. If you assume that the water cools to 40*C by the time it hits the watch and plug these numbers into the standard equation for determining the frequency/temperature drift of an XY cut quartz oscillator: 0.035ppm / (40*C-23*C)^2 you get a timing difference of 0.1 seconds over a 10 minute exposure to a temperature of 40*C. Assuming one shower a day, this amounts to 0.7 seconds a week, 3 seconds a month, or 36.5 seconds a year. This is well within standards for a normal quartz watch, but my watch was losing 3 seconds a week which is more than four times what the equation tells us should be the case.










I think I have exhausted all options and have got as far as I can get. Junghans' claim of 8SPY is clearly nonsense in all but the most strictly controlled constant temperature conditions, and they have effectively admitted as much. But I do not understand why the watch performs so much worse in Quartz Mode than a cheap Swatch. I can live with it though, even though my confidence in Junghans' quality control has been severely and irreparably shaken by the first watch's terrible accuracy, misaligned hands, and incorrect battery cover. I will keep testing the watch in Quartz Mode to see if things get better, but will switch back to normal radio controlled mode in a month or so when I start (hopefully) travelling again.


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## LosAngelesTimer

Can someone put together an executive summary? 
Kthnxbye


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## gaijin

LosAngelesTimer said:


> Can someone put together an executive summary?
> Kthnxbye


Sure.

Junghans is not HAQ.

HTH


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## Tom-HK

I am not sure that I understood the nature of the problem with the different thicknesses of the different versions. I always assumed a small seconds version might be a bit thicker than a centre seconds version if the change to the movement had necessitated the addition of parts to the gear train (though I admit that the central hand stack could be shorter), but I think I am misunderstanding the point. 

Anyway, it is rare, these days, to see someone so dedicated to understanding the workings of a quartz watch or to testing and unpicking the claims of precision and it is nice to see such dedication displayed on these pages again. I have had similarly enlightening discussions with Junghans about this series of watches and I feel that you may have saved yourself a lot of time by first having read these pages in depth. You have definitely shed some new light on the movement but we already know that they use an XO with a unique frequency and an EEPROM system with no thermocompensation and that quartz watches are calibrated to 'around body temperature', with all precision claims being subject to certain climatic conditions and wearing patterns being adhered to. Also, other owners have shown how Junghans' 8 SPY claim failed the WUS F9 test some time ago.

I note two things: Junghans pointed out to you that their XO does not use a standard 32,768 Hz frequency, but a unique 32,760 Hz frequency. That is a very minor point but you mis-state the frequency several times so it is worth pointing out as your write-up is extremely detailed and informative in other regards.

The second point I should make is that the number of steps a second hand makes each second bears no relation to the frequency of the XO or how easily the frequency can be divided by two. Those two things haven't been connected since the days of the Beta 21. The IC fires the stepper motor that drives the second hand as often as it has been programmed to do so. Most often this is once per second but there is no reason why it cannot be more. Some quartz watches have two ticks, some three, some four and some 16 ticks per second. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were other examples that I have forgotten.


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## 12MP

Tom-HK said:


> I am not sure that I understood the nature of the problem with the different thicknesses of the different versions. I always assumed a small seconds version might be a bit thicker than a centre seconds version if the change to the movement had necessitated the addition of parts to the gear train (though I admit that the central hand stack could be shorter), but I think I am misunderstanding the point.
> 
> Anyway, it is rare, these days, to see someone so dedicated to understanding the workings of a quartz watch or to testing and unpicking the claims of precision and it is nice to see such dedication displayed on these pages again. I have had similarly enlightening discussions with Junghans about this series of watches and I feel that you may have saved yourself a lot of time by first having read these pages in depth. You have definitely shed some new light on the movement but we already know that they use an XO with a unique frequency and an EEPROM system with no thermocompensation and that quartz watches are calibrated to 'around body temperature', with all precision claims being subject to certain climatic conditions and wearing patterns being adhered to. Also, other owners have shown how Junghans' 8 SPY claim failed the WUS F9 test some time ago.
> 
> I note two things: Junghans pointed out to you that their XO does not use a standard 32,768 Hz frequency, but a unique 32,760 Hz frequency. That is a very minor point but you mis-state the frequency several times so it is worth pointing out as your write-up is extremely detailed and informative in other regards.
> 
> The second point I should make is that the number of steps a second hand makes each second bears no relation to the frequency of the XO or how easily the frequency can be divided by two. Those two things haven't been connected since the days of the Beta 21. The IC fires the stepper motor that drives the second hand as often as it has been programmed to do so. Most often this is once per second but there is no reason why it cannot be more. Some quartz watches have two ticks, some three, some four and some 16 ticks per second. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were other examples that I have forgotten.


Thank you for your comments. The point I was trying to make about thickness is that the information on Junghans' website is wrong. All models are 9.2mm thick with standard plexiglass and 9.6mm thick with sapphire. What did you make of Junghans information on XO frequency and how the watch seems to combine two signals to make 32,768Hz? I don't understand it, and was wondering if you might?


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## Tom-HK

Junghans aren't combining signals to make up to 32,768 Hz; they are just going with a 32,760 Hz XO. Their explanation was not very detailed but they told me that the lower frequency suited their implementation better. Make of that what you will. Clearly it hasn't helped them to get to a dependable 8 SPY and, on the face of it, the frequency seems to make as much sense as the mechanism that checks the position of the hands once a minute.

Edit: There isn't any inherent reason why most brands use 32,768 Hz. That is just what has become standard since Girard Perregaux introduced it in the '70s. Before that, brands used 8 kHz and 16 kHz XOs. Brands have also used 40 kHz, 196 kHz, 262 kHz, 2.4 MHz, 4.2 MHz and 8.4 MHz.


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## DaveM

Tom-HK said:


> There isn't any inherent reason why most brands use 32,768 Hz. That is just what has become standard since Girard Perregaux introduced it in the '70s. Before that, brands used 8 kHz and 16 kHz XOs. Brands have also used 40 kHz, 196 kHz, 262 kHz, 2.4 MHz, 4.2 MHz and 8.4 MHz.


*Just speculating, but it is probably because their inhibition-software always advances time ( ie adds rather than inhibits pulses) .*
This could make the software a bit simpler, and so long as they can make the XTAL within 200-parts-per-million 7Hz would give the headroom.
*
Many thanks to 12MP for the fascinating post.
And compliments to Junghans for* ( be it with some persuasion)* engaging in a meaningful technical discussion.*
I suspect that whether the watch is 8 seconds per year or 8 seconds-per-month in 'independent' mode is of little commercial importance, but to judge from posts on this site achieving 5ATM water-resistance is. 
Most luxury-goods marketing-departments seem to be more interested in publicising their brand-ambassadors than talking to 'difficult customers', but history shows that 'difficult customers' ( Bill Gates and IBM ? ) often inspire technical advances !


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## Barbababa

12MP said:


> *Junghans Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde
> 
> A Bumpy Ride*​
> I have always been fascinated by high-end classical watches that have interesting quartz movements. Over the years I have owned and regretted selling several, including a Jaeger leCoultre Master Control Chrono ref 145.2.31 and an IWC Fliegerchronograph ref. 3741 (both fitted with JLC's 631 Calibre Mecaquartz movement), and a Grand Seiko SBGT005 with a 9F thermocompensated movement.
> 
> I first came across the Junghans Meister series seven years ago. The look (especially with the silver dial) is pure classic 1950s, but I was put off by the useless 3ATM water resistance, lack of sapphire crystal, and bulbous case backs, especially on the chrono models which are absurdly thick.
> 
> But when Junghans added the MEGA model to the Meister range a couple of years ago I was immediately interested. At about 9.5mm thick the Meister MEGA is reasonably thin and, to make things more appealing, Junghans now offer an optional sapphire crystal with double sided AR coating. Fitting the watch with a sapphire crystal increases water resistance from a useless 3ATM to a more useful 5ATM - good enough for wearing in a regular low pressure shower. Depending on which model you chose, the movement is Junghans' J101.65 or J101.66, an analogue quartz movement that synchronises every day with one of five AM time signals: one in the US, one in the UK, one in Germany and two in Japan. Provided the watch is within a thousand miles or so of one of these radio stations, it automatically synchronises itself to the relevant atomic clock signal at around 2a.m. local time. If the watch is out of range of a radio signal (which would be the case if you are in Central or South America, anywhere in Africa, the Middle East, Central or Eastern Europe, most of Russia, most of Asia with the exception of Japan, and Australia) the watch operates in what Junghans calls "Quartz Mode", which basically means as a normal autonomous quartz watch. What intrigued me was that on their website and in countless publicity pieces, Junghans claim an accuracy of 8SPY in Quartz Mode. For example, on their website Junghans say: *"If the watch is outside of the reception range, it continues to run automatically with the accuracy of an especially precise quartz movement - with a maximum time deviation of 8 seconds". *As you will read further down, after 5 months of ownership and returning the watch to Junghans for a replacement, this claim has proved to be blatantly false and totally misleading.
> 
> I was determined to learn more about the Meister MEGA range, but found much of the material on Junghans' website and in publicity materials to be confusing, contradictory and in many cases just plain wrong. In essence, there are two families of Meister MEGA models: the Meister MEGA with a central second hand and Junghans' J101.65 movement, and the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with its second hand in a sub dial at the six o'clock position and Junghans' J101.66 movement. Each is available with silver or blue dial, a plexiglass or sapphire crystal, and leather or steel bracelet. The Meister MEGA is available with a gold PVD case, but for some reason the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is not. There is also a special edition of both with a map of the world printed on the dial, and a sapphire crystal, see-through case back, and steel bracelet as standard although, again for some unintelligible reason, the special edition of the Meister MEGA is only available with a blue dial and the special edition of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is only available with a silver dial. At the risk of indulging in national stereotyping, one would have expected a greater degree of rigorous logical German thinking applied to the model line-up, particularly given that Junghans makes such a big deal about being German and describes itself as the "German Watch".
> 
> I struggled to make sense of the descriptions of these watches on Junghans' website. For example, the website said that the Meister MEGA is 8.9mm thick, the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is 9.2mm thick, and the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is 9.6mm thick. There is no explanation of the reason for the different thicknesses, and the website did not make clear whether the 8.9mm and 9.2mm measurements for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde apply to the watches with the standard plexiglass or the optional sapphire crystal, or both. There was also no explanation of whether the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is due to the sapphire crystal or the see through case back, or both. To further confuse matters, the pictures of the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back show the case back is engraved 5ATM, whereas the Meister MEGA and standard Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde have case backs engraved 3ATM. There is also no explanation of how the watches achieve 8SPY in Quartz Mode. The frequency is a standard 32,768Hz and there is no mention of thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology.
> 
> I emailed Junghans' International Sales Director asking for clarification on thickness, water resistance, and accuracy in Quartz Mode, and waited for a reply. Three weeks passed with no reply, so I emailed again. Still no reply, so I emailed the company's CEO. Again, no response. A week later I sent a strongly worded email to the CEO basically telling him to get a grip on his company, and the following day got a phone call. The lady who called me explained that when Junghans fit a sapphire crystal, water resistance goes up from 3ATM to 5ATM because of the tighter fit of the sapphire compared to the plexiglass. But she could not explain the confusion around thickness of the various models, or explain the basis for the company's 8SPY claim while in Quartz Mode. She referred me at this point to the company's Head of Product Development, with whom I then had a series of helpful emails, some of which are reproduced below.
> 
> In summary, the company's Head of Product Development said that Junghans had initially used a slightly thicker case for the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde because the J101.66 movement is slightly thicker than the J101.65 movement due to the small second hand at six o'clock. He said that once the definitive production design was finalised, Junghans decided to use the slightly thicker case for both models. He said that this has not been communicated through to marketing, who still were under the impression that the two cases sizes were slightly different. He confirmed that there is no difference in thickness between the steel case back and the see through case back, and that the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde Special Edition is entirely due to the sapphire crystal. He confirmed that water resistance for all models is 5ATM when fitted with a sapphire crystal, but was not able to tell me why Junghans do not engrave the case back of models with the optional sapphire crystal with 5ATM instead of 3ATM, whereas the special edition with a sapphire crystal as standard is engraved 5ATM. For this, he referred me to someone in marketing, who emailed back a rather pathetic reply saying that this was due to cost savings. This makes no sense given that each case back is individually engraved with a unique watch serial number. The Head of Product Development did tell me though that if I bought either model with the optional sapphire crystal, Junghans would provide a certificate of water resistance testing at 5ATM, even though they would not be able to put 5ATM on the case back. This sounded slightly ridiculous to me, but I let it pass.
> 
> The Head of Product Development and I then engaged in an interesting email exchange about Junghans' claimed 8SPY in Quartz Mode. He confirmed that the watch does not have thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology, and instead relies on some sort of customised EEPROM to maintain accuracy. He said that Junghans' accuracy claims under Quartz Mode *require that the watch is kept at a constant 27*C*. Is common knowledge that there are loads (probably the majority?) of cheap non thermocompensated watches that can achieve 8SPY if kept at a constant temperature. Junghans condition of constant temperature shows that the 8SPY claim is utter nonsense for anyone who wears their watch all day every day. I reproduce some of the email correspondence below:
> 
> *19th May 2020 (from me to Junghans)*
> _Page 45 of the attached English Language user manual for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde says that accuracy in "Quartz Mode" (i.e. when NOT connected to one of the 5 time signal stations) is +/- 8 seconds a year. Normal quartz watches are accurate to 10 to 15 seconds a month, or 120 to 180 seconds a year. The accuracy of a normal quartz watch is affected by the precision of the oscillator and the variations in temperature that the watch experiences during a normal day (sleep, exercise, shower, summer, winter, etc). Certain manufactures produce High Accuracy Quartz movements for example: Citizen Chronomaster +/- 5 Seconds a year, Grand Seiko 9F +/- 9 Seconds a year, Bulova 262 kHz UHF +/- 10 Seconds a year, and various watches fitted with the ETA F06.411 "Precidrive" movement +/- 10 seconds a year, etc. etc. These movements are either thermo-compensated, or operate at much higher frequencies than normal quartz movements. I do not understand how the Junghans 101.65 and 101.66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is not thermo-compensated, and would like to know how you can make this accuracy claim._
> 
> *20th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
> _Our watch is working with a 32kHz quartz without thermo-compensation. Precidrive is using the quartz and IC in one package for easy temperature measuring - we can't do that because we're using a big advanced Microcontroller-IC & Receiver IC. Junghans ever used higher frequencies to increase accuracy but this will reduce battery life significantly. Japanese Brands are using an additional IC to measure temperature so that the MCU can correct that. But this also reduces battery life! They don't care that much since they have solar or other rechargeable function. Junghans develops a radio-controlled battery watch with 3 (!) motors and small dimension - so one of our focus was on battery life (and we're also using an advanced bidirectional control function between rotor and IC - with asservissement). In order to achieve a high accuracy we're using a re-programmable (EEPROM) inhibition system with very high inhibition time (480 seconds) leading to a high accuracy under normal temperature. To correct the deviation we're controlling the motor cycle time by software (means that the next motor pulse will not come exactly after 1 seconds - it will be a bit more or less depending on the oscillator)._
> 
> *20th May 2020 (from me to Junghans).*
> _The explanation from [x] does not answer my question. In summary he says that you use a 32KHz (actually 32,768 Hz) quartz oscillator and a programmable inhibition compensator to calibrate the motor impulses. 32,768 Hz is a standard frequency for quartz, and inhibition compensation is a common technique for adjusting quartz watches. Inhibition compensation allows the watch to be calibrated by the watchmaker at the factory, but it does NOT allow the watch to self-compensate for variations in temperature once it has left the watchmaker and is returned to the customer. The temperature coefficient of frequency for a quartz watch driven by a 32,768 Hz quartz oscillator is .035ppm / *C^2. Therefore a watch that is calibrated at 28*C but which is used in an environment where the average temperature is 18*C will lose 3.5ppm which is 110 seconds a year. This is almost 14 times the maximum annual deviation of 8 seconds a year that you specify. [X] says that the movement is accurate "under normal temperature" conditions, but what does "normal" mean? If "normal" means that the watch is only accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is in your temperature-controlled factory, then this is NOT normal conditions! Therefore I still do not understand how the J101.65/66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use. An accuracy of +/- 8 seconds a year on the wrist in normal daily use is only seen with a) ultra-high frequency oscillators, or b) dual oscillators, or c) thermo-compensation, or a combination of these technologies. I look forward to an explanation of how the J101.65/66 movement can achieve +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use on the wrist, and not just in your temperature-controlled factory. On a separate note, [X] says that you do not use thermo-compensation because of the effect that this has on battery life. Junghans says that the J101.65/66 movement using a CR1025 lithium battery needs a new battery every two years. For your information, A 2 year battery life is considered relatively short, although I do accept that your bi-directional stepper motors and other technologies in the J101.65/66 movement reduce battery life compared to other movements that do not use these technologies. _
> 
> *27th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
> _We're using a 32,760 Hz (due to some reasons it's not the common 32,768 Hz) quartz. And you're right: inhibition is a common method. The difference to others is that we're using a microcontroller (mask programmed) in combination with a EEPROM with a lot of software (made from us). Your calculation about temperature drift is right. And we're doing the calibration at around 27°C which we evaluated is about the average temperature when wearing the watch at the wrist. The effect of outside temperature is not much (when wearing the watch) but we're aware that there is an effect because skin temperature is not the same with all people and temperature is lower when having a lot of hairs. 'Normal condition' is a description from our marketing and it's the same wording as other brands are using. This is common and - you're right: a bit misleading. The latest development from Citizen for example has an accuracy (or max. deviation) of 1s/year (which is per calculation almost 1,3). They said: 'under normal conditions'. They are using a high frequency quartz with high current consumption. As you know whether using inhibition or high frequency or so: the mentioned accuracy is always based on one temperature only. And even high frequency quartz watches will have a high deviation at lower or higher temperatures. That's why those watches are much more precise than COSC requirement at 23°C. But it 8°C and 38°C they can't achieve the requirement from COSC. So without temperature compensation a quartz watch can't be a quartz-chronometer._
> 
> So, there we have it. Junghans admit that their 8SPY claim is only valid under perfect conditions of little or no temperature variation from 27*C. By this point I felt that I understood the watch as well as I was going to, and started looking for the best place to buy it. Junghans have an official importer in the UK, which has appointed several authorised agents. There are also number of unofficial sellers and outlets online, one of which was able to undercut quite significantly the price offered by the main UK dealer. I spoke to the official importer about this, who told me that Junghans' warranty is only valid if the watch is bought through an authorised agent, or through the importer. The official importer implied that they frequently have problems with Junghans watches and it would be better to buy it through official channels. I placed an order through the biggest authorised UK agent for a Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a silver dial, and an optional sapphire crystal. The agent was able to get the importer to get Junghans to supply the watch with a see-through case back at no extra cost, but Junghans would not change the engraving from 3ATM to 5ATM to reflect the watch's actual water resistance. Three weeks later the watch arrived.
> 
> The watch is beautiful, elegant, and intelligently designed. First impressions are that the watch is all dial. There is no bezel and no rehault, and only 1mm between the edge of the sapphire crystal and the edge of the watch. The convex dial is lovely; a matt silver with highly polished steel markers applied at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. The steel hour markers have a low profile, which helps keep the watch thin. The marker at 12 o'clock is slightly broader than the markers at 3, 6 and 9. The markers at 1, 2, 4, 5 etc are a printed fine line that looks superb and balanced. There is no lume on the dial or the markers. Apart from the steel markers and the printed markers, the only other things on the dial are Junghans' 8-pointed star logo, the company name, and the word MEGA in upper case. All very restrained, sophisticated, and elegant. I do wonder though about the name "MEGA" which, in the context of a quartz watch, would imply an oscillator frequency in the millions of Hertz. The MEGA's oscillator runs in the thousands of Hertz (i.e. KHz), not millions of Hertz (i.e. MHz). Again, maybe a bit misleading? Seconds are displayed on a large, slightly recessed sub dial at 6 o'clock. The second hand moves in half-second increments which, given that the oscillator frequency is 32,768Hz (2 to the power of 15 = 32,768) is something that any quartz watch can do. The date is displayed behind a window - perhaps a little too recessed for my liking, but probably the best that can be done given the convex shape of the dial. According to Junghans, the watch has three separate stepper motors, one for each hand. This allows the hands to move independently of each other. For example, the minute hand does not move until the second had hits the 60 second mark, at which point it advances smoothly to the next minute. The date similarly moves independently, although I do not understand how it does this without its own separate motor. I ordered the watch with the optional sapphire crystal. The crystal is AR coated on both sides, with little if any blueing visible under most lighting conditions. There is also hardly any distortion at the edges. Junghans were kind enough to also supply the original plexiglass crystal. When comparing the two, you can see that the plexiglass is 0.4mm thinner, and is gently convex, whereas the sapphire crystal is more of a top hat, but not entirely flat on top. This slim elegance continues into the vertical profile of the watch, which cleverly tapers in towards the case back, so that the case appears to be only 2mm or so thick - the rest being hidden by the tapering profile which sits well into one's wrist. It is a very clever design trick and from most angles, the watch looks super slim. Despite its 38.4mm width, the watch measures only 42.5mm lug-to-lug. It achieves this by mounting the lugs onto the tapered part of the watch, thereby enabling the bracelet pins to sit remarkably close to the edge of the watch. On the side of the case there is a small, unguarded winding crown with two pull-out stops, and also an all but invisible pusher, used to set the time and synchronisation. The case back is held onto the watch with five screws. Junghans fitted my watch with the see-through case back normally reserved for the special edition Meister MEGA. The see-through crystal is much more heavily tinted than it appears in Junghans' website and other publicity materials. When I queried this, Junghans told me that they changed to a darker tint because the lack of heavy tinting was interfering with radio reception. This does not make sense to me, but maybe someone else can comment? The dark tinting of the see through case back means that the movement is not easily visible, which is a shame as it is fascinating to look at. I initially ordered my watch with Junghans' cordovan leather strap, but as you will read further down, I received the stainless steel bracelet some months later. The quality of the cordovan leather strap is not particularly high. It is thin, flimsy, and rather cheap-looking, and I would imagine that anyone buying this watch would want to buy a decent leather band with a bit more thickness and substance to it.
> 
> View attachment 15559525​
> Junghans advertises a number of innovative features in its J101.65 and J101.66 movements. Some of these sound like marketing fluff but, for what it is worth, they are: i) ITC (Intelligent Time Correction) technology which synchronises the position of the second hand against the most recently received time information 1,440 times a day. In addition, the position of hour and minute hands gets checked daily by something Junghans calls a "Light Barrier" and the position of the date once a month. If necessary, e.g. after a shock or interference from a magnetic field, a correction is made, ii) SHM (Smart Hand Motion) technology which ensures precise indication of the seconds is by displaying the seconds in half-second steps, iii) Advanced Moving Function (AMF) which moves the hands a fraction of a second before the time changes. As a result what is shown is the actual time without any delay at all, and iv) a supposedly super-accurate quartz movement which Junghans claims is accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode (i.e. when the watch is out of range of a radio signal).
> 
> Junghans claims a two-year battery life when used in radio controlled mode. The watch uses a CR1025 (i.e. 10mm diameter x 2.5mm thick) 3 volt lithium battery, which is typically rated at 30mAh. This is a low power output when compared to most 3 volt button cells. While I am sure that Junghans looked at other cell sizes, they would have been limited by i) the need to use lithium manganese dioxide chemistry to provide 3v (the more common silver oxide button cells, normally designated by the SR prefix, only provide 1.5v), and ii) the overall depth available which, given the thinness of the movement, is not much. Even so, a CR1225 (i.e. 12mm x 2.5mm) button cell would be good for 50mAh, i.e. almost twice the CR1025 and only 2mm wider, and a CR1130 would provide 70mAh.
> 
> View attachment 15559534
> 
> 
> The watch has two modes of operation: normal radio controlled mode and "Quartz Mode" which is when the radio reception is switched off. According to Junghans, the watch in Quartz Mode is accurate to 8SPY. Putting the watch into Radio Controlled mode is a simple as pressing the side pusher in and holding for a couple of seconds. The watch responds with a fascinating display of different hands twirling around in different directions at different speeds before it settles down, locks in on a radio signal, and synchronises. Once in Radio Controlled mode there is no need to do anything more, and the watch synchronises itself every night at around 2a.m. and stays in Radio Controlled mode. Pushing the side button in and holding it in tells the watch to tell you which time signal station it is locked onto. It does this by moving the seconds hand to one of several different positions on the dial. You note this position then flip the watch over where a map is printed on the case-back. Personally, I do not see what the point of this is, but I suppose someone might find it useful. Watches with the see-though case back have the map printed on the dial instead of the case back, which I find a bit tacky. If you want to keep the watch in radio Controlled mode but are out of range of a radio station, Junghans have an iPhone app that emits a whale-like clicking noise which can be used to synch the watch. It is easy to use and can be set to use the iPhone's internal clock, or the NTC server. Junghans recommend using the NTC server, but do not offer any explanation as to why. I ran the watch in radio controlled mode for a few days and it works perfectly, keeping absolutely in synch with atomic time. But I was much more interested to try out Quartz Mode and test Junghans' claim of 8SPY.
> 
> Putting the watch into Quartz Mode and setting the correct year, month, date, and time is a bit fiddly, requiring pushing the pusher at different times and for different periods of time while the crown is in different positions. It is all set out clearly in the instruction manual. I put the watch into Quartz Mode and synchronised the watch using the time display on my iPhone. After one week, and with great anticipation, I checked the watch against my iPhone and was shocked to see that the watch had lost almost 5 seconds. I reset the watch, re-synched it and tried again - with the same result. I tried the same thing a number of times again, but used different references for setting the time such as WWV on shortwave, the telephone time speaking clock, time.com, the Junghans app time display, etc always using the same reference to set and the check the time after a week. I even changed the battery, making sure to buy a new CR1025 cell with several years left before expiry (when changing the battery I noticed that Junghans had mistakenly fitted a battery cover that said J101.65, not J101.66). The watch continued to lose approximately 5 seconds a week, which is approximately 260 seconds a year which is more than 30x the maximum deviation of 8SPY that Junghans claims. Something was clearly wrong. I also noticed that the hour hand was not lined up perfectly with the hour marker when the minute hand was at 12 o'clock. This really bugged me, particularly given that Junghans publishes a lot of PR fluff about its "light barrier" system that checks that the hands are correctly aligned.
> 
> I emailed Junghans Head of Product Development again and received the following reply:
> 
> _A standard quartz movement (i.e. from Swatch) is adjusted to +/-0.5 seconds a day while the Meister Mega is adjusted to +/- 8 seconds a year - both at 23°C. Anyway both movements are not temperature compensated so the accuracy will change with the temperature. The temperature drift for both movements follow a parabolic curve with a vertex of the parabola at 23°C. In case there is an increase or decrease of temperature the frequency will get lower and the watch is getting slower by following the below function:
> 
> f = f0 *[1-0,04ppm/°C2 * (T-T0)2]
> f: resulting frequency at temperature
> f0: frequency at 23°C
> -0,04ppm/°C2 : the maximum parabolic coefficient
> T: actual temperature
> T0: 23°C
> 
> The actual deviation is a sum of the temperature effect and the basic adjustment at 23°C. So if the cheap Swatch watch is advertised with +/-0.5 seconds a day or a Junghans with +/- 8 seconds a year this can be considered as misleading since it's both only at 23°C but this is a common practice and understanding in watch industry. Anyway we'll review our advertisement to be more precise on this.
> 
> Regarding the quartz frequency: the watch (Microcontroller) is getting a 32,768 Hz Signal indirect from the quartz. But the quartz has 32,760 Hz. This 32,760 Hz quartz is used for the receiver IC as a mixer together with another quartz. The resulting frequency at Microcontroller after pass through the receiver IC is 32,768 Hz.
> 
> The tolerance in gear travel is less than 1 minute but there is also some tolerance in hand assembling, dial, dial fixation etc. We perform the test at 6 o'clock and the maximum deviation is allowed to be +/- 2 minutes. So your misalignment with 7 minutes is definitely our mistake and we really apologise for that._
> 
> I contacted the official UK importer about the matter and received the most extraordinary, bizarre response. Basically, they told me that Junghans had decided that I was a "difficult customer" because of my frequent emails to the company (most of which went unanswered) and that it had been decided to offer me a full refund. When I pointed out that my watch i) was quite clearly NOT accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode, and ii) had an hour hand that did not line up accurately with the hour markers, the official UK importer said that Junghans was not Patek Philippe and that I was being unreasonable in expecting such high quality from a £1,000 watch. They said that I was clearly far more knowledgeable than most other customers and that, because of this, I would never be satisfied, no matter what Junghans did. I slightly got the impression that the official UK importer was frustrated with Junghans, possibly over misleading marketing claims or even quality control issues. Nonetheless, I was pretty annoyed with the UK importer and told them that I had spent good money on a watch and wanted the problem sorted out. After a week, they came back to me saying that Junghans would supply a replacement watch, and would take particular care to calibrate it and check that the hands were correctly aligned. Junghans wanted my watch back so that they could use the sapphire crystal (fair enough) and quoted a two week turnaround time. I dropped the watch off at the UK importer, and it was sent off to Junghans. About a week later I received an official apology from Junghans admitting that the hour hand had not been correctly aligned, and confirming that they would calibrate the new watch at 27*C, instead of the normal 23*C. This made more sense to me given that normal skin temperature is around 34*C. In light of Junghans' official apology, I told Junghans' official UK importer that I wanted Junghans to supply me with the optional stainless steel bracelet at no cost, as a way of compensating me for the trouble they had put me to . To their credit, Junghans agreed, and one week later the replacement watch arrived, resplendent in its stainless steel bracelet.
> 
> I wore the watch in Radio Controlled mode for a week to make sure that everything was working, which it was. The stainless steel bracelet is beautifully made. It has 9 segments across, 5 brushed and 4 highly polished, and a smooth, secure, and well-engineered butterfly clasp. Adjustment is via pins, and the whole bracelet exudes quality. I think it would look better with 7 or even 5 segments across instead of 9, but it still looks and feels superb. After a week of wearing it, I decided that the 4 highly polished segments were out of character with the watch, and decided to have them refinished in a fine brushed finish, to match the other 5 segments. I have a master watchmaker who has done outstanding high-quality work for me before, and he agreed to refinish the bracelet so that it was entirely brushed, and also to refinish the tops of the lugs so that they match the bracelet. I made it clear to him that he was not to disassemble the watch, or even remove the case back, and agreed a one to two week turnaround time at a reasonable cost. Before sending him the watch, I set it to Quartz Mode and synchronised the time, reasoning that it would spend the next couple of weeks in a stable environment.
> 
> View attachment 15559540​
> One and a half weeks later I got the watch back and congratulated the master watchmaker on an outstanding job. I was also eager to check the watch's timekeeping in Quartz Mode and was delighted to see that it had kept absolutely perfect time during its trip to the watchmaker (I confirmed with him that he had not re-set the time himself). For the first time in months I was now truly happy with the watch.
> 
> My happiness was not to last though. Over the following two weeks of operation in Quartz Mode the watch started losing time again. The deviation was now down to 3 seconds a week, an improvement on the earlier 5 seconds a week, but still nowhere near Junghans' promised 8SPY. The fact that the watch had kept perfect time during its 1 ½ weeks with the master watchmaker told me that there something about my environment or my use of the watch that was causing it to run slow. The reason that I always insist on my watches being water resistant to at least 5 ATM is that I wear them in the shower (yes, I know that 10 ATM is recommended&#8230. Could this be what was causing the watch to run slow? I measured the water temperature coming out of the shower head at 42.5*C. My shower is 10 minutes at most. If you assume that the water cools to 40*C by the time it hits the watch and plug these numbers into the standard equation for determining the frequency/temperature drift of an XY cut quartz oscillator: 0.035ppm / (40*C-23*C)^2 you get a timing difference of 0.1 seconds over a 10 minute exposure to a temperature of 40*C. Assuming one shower a day, this amounts to 0.7 seconds a week, 3 seconds a month, or 36.5 seconds a year. This is well within standards for a normal quartz watch, but my watch was losing 3 seconds a week which is more than four times what the equation tells us should be the case.
> 
> View attachment 15559543
> 
> 
> I think I have exhausted all options and have got as far as I can get. Junghans' claim of 8SPY is clearly nonsense in all but the most strictly controlled constant temperature conditions, and they have effectively admitted as much. But I do not understand why the watch performs so much worse in Quartz Mode than a cheap Swatch. I can live with it though, even though my confidence in Junghans' quality control has been severely and irreparably shaken by the first watch's terrible accuracy, misaligned hands, and incorrect battery cover. I will keep testing the watch in Quartz Mode to see if things get better, but will switch back to normal radio controlled mode in a month or so when I start (hopefully) travelling again.


Dam B! I could have told u to keep the watch upp the ass like an OG-rectal-thermometer to make it keep time, I do with mine  (just kidding)
You should be very happy with it since you actually can make it run in RC-mode, mine is so week it can´t sychronize even with the app. Trying to make it synch over night, and fail, the date is sliding 1/4 every failed atempt, leaving two 1/2 dates in the window after 4 times. I now run it in quartzmode with ok result (not 8spy obviously). I was kind of hopeful with the solar version being better but have not read any reports on it yet...


----------



## hoverdonkey

12MP said:


> *Junghans Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde
> 
> A Bumpy Ride*​
> I have always been fascinated by high-end classical watches that have interesting quartz movements. Over the years I have owned and regretted selling several, including a Jaeger leCoultre Master Control Chrono ref 145.2.31 and an IWC Fliegerchronograph ref. 3741 (both fitted with JLC's 631 Calibre Mecaquartz movement), and a Grand Seiko SBGT005 with a 9F thermocompensated movement.
> 
> I first came across the Junghans Meister series seven years ago. The look (especially with the silver dial) is pure classic 1950s, but I was put off by the useless 3ATM water resistance, lack of sapphire crystal, and bulbous case backs, especially on the chrono models which are absurdly thick.
> 
> But when Junghans added the MEGA model to the Meister range a couple of years ago I was immediately interested. At about 9.5mm thick the Meister MEGA is reasonably thin and, to make things more appealing, Junghans now offer an optional sapphire crystal with double sided AR coating. Fitting the watch with a sapphire crystal increases water resistance from a useless 3ATM to a more useful 5ATM - good enough for wearing in a regular low pressure shower. Depending on which model you chose, the movement is Junghans' J101.65 or J101.66, an analogue quartz movement that synchronises every day with one of five AM time signals: one in the US, one in the UK, one in Germany and two in Japan. Provided the watch is within a thousand miles or so of one of these radio stations, it automatically synchronises itself to the relevant atomic clock signal at around 2a.m. local time. If the watch is out of range of a radio signal (which would be the case if you are in Central or South America, anywhere in Africa, the Middle East, Central or Eastern Europe, most of Russia, most of Asia with the exception of Japan, and Australia) the watch operates in what Junghans calls "Quartz Mode", which basically means as a normal autonomous quartz watch. What intrigued me was that on their website and in countless publicity pieces, Junghans claim an accuracy of 8SPY in Quartz Mode. For example, on their website Junghans say: *"If the watch is outside of the reception range, it continues to run automatically with the accuracy of an especially precise quartz movement - with a maximum time deviation of 8 seconds". *As you will read further down, after 5 months of ownership and returning the watch to Junghans for a replacement, this claim has proved to be blatantly false and totally misleading.
> 
> I was determined to learn more about the Meister MEGA range, but found much of the material on Junghans' website and in publicity materials to be confusing, contradictory and in many cases just plain wrong. In essence, there are two families of Meister MEGA models: the Meister MEGA with a central second hand and Junghans' J101.65 movement, and the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with its second hand in a sub dial at the six o'clock position and Junghans' J101.66 movement. Each is available with silver or blue dial, a plexiglass or sapphire crystal, and leather or steel bracelet. The Meister MEGA is available with a gold PVD case, but for some reason the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is not. There is also a special edition of both with a map of the world printed on the dial, and a sapphire crystal, see-through case back, and steel bracelet as standard although, again for some unintelligible reason, the special edition of the Meister MEGA is only available with a blue dial and the special edition of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is only available with a silver dial. At the risk of indulging in national stereotyping, one would have expected a greater degree of rigorous logical German thinking applied to the model line-up, particularly given that Junghans makes such a big deal about being German and describes itself as the "German Watch".
> 
> I struggled to make sense of the descriptions of these watches on Junghans' website. For example, the website said that the Meister MEGA is 8.9mm thick, the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde is 9.2mm thick, and the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is 9.6mm thick. There is no explanation of the reason for the different thicknesses, and the website did not make clear whether the 8.9mm and 9.2mm measurements for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde apply to the watches with the standard plexiglass or the optional sapphire crystal, or both. There was also no explanation of whether the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back is due to the sapphire crystal or the see through case back, or both. To further confuse matters, the pictures of the special edition Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a sapphire crystal and see through case back show the case back is engraved 5ATM, whereas the Meister MEGA and standard Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde have case backs engraved 3ATM. There is also no explanation of how the watches achieve 8SPY in Quartz Mode. The frequency is a standard 32,768Hz and there is no mention of thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology.
> 
> I emailed Junghans' International Sales Director asking for clarification on thickness, water resistance, and accuracy in Quartz Mode, and waited for a reply. Three weeks passed with no reply, so I emailed again. Still no reply, so I emailed the company's CEO. Again, no response. A week later I sent a strongly worded email to the CEO basically telling him to get a grip on his company, and the following day got a phone call. The lady who called me explained that when Junghans fit a sapphire crystal, water resistance goes up from 3ATM to 5ATM because of the tighter fit of the sapphire compared to the plexiglass. But she could not explain the confusion around thickness of the various models, or explain the basis for the company's 8SPY claim while in Quartz Mode. She referred me at this point to the company's Head of Product Development, with whom I then had a series of helpful emails, some of which are reproduced below.
> 
> In summary, the company's Head of Product Development said that Junghans had initially used a slightly thicker case for the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde because the J101.66 movement is slightly thicker than the J101.65 movement due to the small second hand at six o'clock. He said that once the definitive production design was finalised, Junghans decided to use the slightly thicker case for both models. He said that this has not been communicated through to marketing, who still were under the impression that the two cases sizes were slightly different. He confirmed that there is no difference in thickness between the steel case back and the see through case back, and that the 9.6mm thickness of the Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde Special Edition is entirely due to the sapphire crystal. He confirmed that water resistance for all models is 5ATM when fitted with a sapphire crystal, but was not able to tell me why Junghans do not engrave the case back of models with the optional sapphire crystal with 5ATM instead of 3ATM, whereas the special edition with a sapphire crystal as standard is engraved 5ATM. For this, he referred me to someone in marketing, who emailed back a rather pathetic reply saying that this was due to cost savings. This makes no sense given that each case back is individually engraved with a unique watch serial number. The Head of Product Development did tell me though that if I bought either model with the optional sapphire crystal, Junghans would provide a certificate of water resistance testing at 5ATM, even though they would not be able to put 5ATM on the case back. This sounded slightly ridiculous to me, but I let it pass.
> 
> The Head of Product Development and I then engaged in an interesting email exchange about Junghans' claimed 8SPY in Quartz Mode. He confirmed that the watch does not have thermocompensation or any other HAQ technology, and instead relies on some sort of customised EEPROM to maintain accuracy. He said that Junghans' accuracy claims under Quartz Mode *require that the watch is kept at a constant 27*C*. Is common knowledge that there are loads (probably the majority?) of cheap non thermocompensated watches that can achieve 8SPY if kept at a constant temperature. Junghans condition of constant temperature shows that the 8SPY claim is utter nonsense for anyone who wears their watch all day every day. I reproduce some of the email correspondence below:
> 
> *19th May 2020 (from me to Junghans)*
> _Page 45 of the attached English Language user manual for the Meister MEGA and Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde says that accuracy in "Quartz Mode" (i.e. when NOT connected to one of the 5 time signal stations) is +/- 8 seconds a year. Normal quartz watches are accurate to 10 to 15 seconds a month, or 120 to 180 seconds a year. The accuracy of a normal quartz watch is affected by the precision of the oscillator and the variations in temperature that the watch experiences during a normal day (sleep, exercise, shower, summer, winter, etc). Certain manufactures produce High Accuracy Quartz movements for example: Citizen Chronomaster +/- 5 Seconds a year, Grand Seiko 9F +/- 9 Seconds a year, Bulova 262 kHz UHF +/- 10 Seconds a year, and various watches fitted with the ETA F06.411 "Precidrive" movement +/- 10 seconds a year, etc. etc. These movements are either thermo-compensated, or operate at much higher frequencies than normal quartz movements. I do not understand how the Junghans 101.65 and 101.66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is not thermo-compensated, and would like to know how you can make this accuracy claim._
> 
> *20th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
> _Our watch is working with a 32kHz quartz without thermo-compensation. Precidrive is using the quartz and IC in one package for easy temperature measuring - we can't do that because we're using a big advanced Microcontroller-IC & Receiver IC. Junghans ever used higher frequencies to increase accuracy but this will reduce battery life significantly. Japanese Brands are using an additional IC to measure temperature so that the MCU can correct that. But this also reduces battery life! They don't care that much since they have solar or other rechargeable function. Junghans develops a radio-controlled battery watch with 3 (!) motors and small dimension - so one of our focus was on battery life (and we're also using an advanced bidirectional control function between rotor and IC - with asservissement). In order to achieve a high accuracy we're using a re-programmable (EEPROM) inhibition system with very high inhibition time (480 seconds) leading to a high accuracy under normal temperature. To correct the deviation we're controlling the motor cycle time by software (means that the next motor pulse will not come exactly after 1 seconds - it will be a bit more or less depending on the oscillator)._
> 
> *20th May 2020 (from me to Junghans).*
> _The explanation from [x] does not answer my question. In summary he says that you use a 32KHz (actually 32,768 Hz) quartz oscillator and a programmable inhibition compensator to calibrate the motor impulses. 32,768 Hz is a standard frequency for quartz, and inhibition compensation is a common technique for adjusting quartz watches. Inhibition compensation allows the watch to be calibrated by the watchmaker at the factory, but it does NOT allow the watch to self-compensate for variations in temperature once it has left the watchmaker and is returned to the customer. The temperature coefficient of frequency for a quartz watch driven by a 32,768 Hz quartz oscillator is .035ppm / *C^2. Therefore a watch that is calibrated at 28*C but which is used in an environment where the average temperature is 18*C will lose 3.5ppm which is 110 seconds a year. This is almost 14 times the maximum annual deviation of 8 seconds a year that you specify. [X] says that the movement is accurate "under normal temperature" conditions, but what does "normal" mean? If "normal" means that the watch is only accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year if it is in your temperature-controlled factory, then this is NOT normal conditions! Therefore I still do not understand how the J101.65/66 movement can be accurate to +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use. An accuracy of +/- 8 seconds a year on the wrist in normal daily use is only seen with a) ultra-high frequency oscillators, or b) dual oscillators, or c) thermo-compensation, or a combination of these technologies. I look forward to an explanation of how the J101.65/66 movement can achieve +/- 8 seconds a year in normal daily use on the wrist, and not just in your temperature-controlled factory. On a separate note, [X] says that you do not use thermo-compensation because of the effect that this has on battery life. Junghans says that the J101.65/66 movement using a CR1025 lithium battery needs a new battery every two years. For your information, A 2 year battery life is considered relatively short, although I do accept that your bi-directional stepper motors and other technologies in the J101.65/66 movement reduce battery life compared to other movements that do not use these technologies. _
> 
> *27th May 2020 (from Junghans to me)*
> _We're using a 32,760 Hz (due to some reasons it's not the common 32,768 Hz) quartz. And you're right: inhibition is a common method. The difference to others is that we're using a microcontroller (mask programmed) in combination with a EEPROM with a lot of software (made from us). Your calculation about temperature drift is right. And we're doing the calibration at around 27°C which we evaluated is about the average temperature when wearing the watch at the wrist. The effect of outside temperature is not much (when wearing the watch) but we're aware that there is an effect because skin temperature is not the same with all people and temperature is lower when having a lot of hairs. 'Normal condition' is a description from our marketing and it's the same wording as other brands are using. This is common and - you're right: a bit misleading. The latest development from Citizen for example has an accuracy (or max. deviation) of 1s/year (which is per calculation almost 1,3). They said: 'under normal conditions'. They are using a high frequency quartz with high current consumption. As you know whether using inhibition or high frequency or so: the mentioned accuracy is always based on one temperature only. And even high frequency quartz watches will have a high deviation at lower or higher temperatures. That's why those watches are much more precise than COSC requirement at 23°C. But it 8°C and 38°C they can't achieve the requirement from COSC. So without temperature compensation a quartz watch can't be a quartz-chronometer._
> 
> So, there we have it. Junghans admit that their 8SPY claim is only valid under perfect conditions of little or no temperature variation from 27*C. By this point I felt that I understood the watch as well as I was going to, and started looking for the best place to buy it. Junghans have an official importer in the UK, which has appointed several authorised agents. There are also number of unofficial sellers and outlets online, one of which was able to undercut quite significantly the price offered by the main UK dealer. I spoke to the official importer about this, who told me that Junghans' warranty is only valid if the watch is bought through an authorised agent, or through the importer. The official importer implied that they frequently have problems with Junghans watches and it would be better to buy it through official channels. I placed an order through the biggest authorised UK agent for a Meister MEGA Kleine Sekunde with a silver dial, and an optional sapphire crystal. The agent was able to get the importer to get Junghans to supply the watch with a see-through case back at no extra cost, but Junghans would not change the engraving from 3ATM to 5ATM to reflect the watch's actual water resistance. Three weeks later the watch arrived.
> 
> The watch is beautiful, elegant, and intelligently designed. First impressions are that the watch is all dial. There is no bezel and no rehault, and only 1mm between the edge of the sapphire crystal and the edge of the watch. The convex dial is lovely; a matt silver with highly polished steel markers applied at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. The steel hour markers have a low profile, which helps keep the watch thin. The marker at 12 o'clock is slightly broader than the markers at 3, 6 and 9. The markers at 1, 2, 4, 5 etc are a printed fine line that looks superb and balanced. There is no lume on the dial or the markers. Apart from the steel markers and the printed markers, the only other things on the dial are Junghans' 8-pointed star logo, the company name, and the word MEGA in upper case. All very restrained, sophisticated, and elegant. I do wonder though about the name "MEGA" which, in the context of a quartz watch, would imply an oscillator frequency in the millions of Hertz. The MEGA's oscillator runs in the thousands of Hertz (i.e. KHz), not millions of Hertz (i.e. MHz). Again, maybe a bit misleading? Seconds are displayed on a large, slightly recessed sub dial at 6 o'clock. The second hand moves in half-second increments which, given that the oscillator frequency is 32,768Hz (2 to the power of 15 = 32,768) is something that any quartz watch can do. The date is displayed behind a window - perhaps a little too recessed for my liking, but probably the best that can be done given the convex shape of the dial. According to Junghans, the watch has three separate stepper motors, one for each hand. This allows the hands to move independently of each other. For example, the minute hand does not move until the second had hits the 60 second mark, at which point it advances smoothly to the next minute. The date similarly moves independently, although I do not understand how it does this without its own separate motor. I ordered the watch with the optional sapphire crystal. The crystal is AR coated on both sides, with little if any blueing visible under most lighting conditions. There is also hardly any distortion at the edges. Junghans were kind enough to also supply the original plexiglass crystal. When comparing the two, you can see that the plexiglass is 0.4mm thinner, and is gently convex, whereas the sapphire crystal is more of a top hat, but not entirely flat on top. This slim elegance continues into the vertical profile of the watch, which cleverly tapers in towards the case back, so that the case appears to be only 2mm or so thick - the rest being hidden by the tapering profile which sits well into one's wrist. It is a very clever design trick and from most angles, the watch looks super slim. Despite its 38.4mm width, the watch measures only 42.5mm lug-to-lug. It achieves this by mounting the lugs onto the tapered part of the watch, thereby enabling the bracelet pins to sit remarkably close to the edge of the watch. On the side of the case there is a small, unguarded winding crown with two pull-out stops, and also an all but invisible pusher, used to set the time and synchronisation. The case back is held onto the watch with five screws. Junghans fitted my watch with the see-through case back normally reserved for the special edition Meister MEGA. The see-through crystal is much more heavily tinted than it appears in Junghans' website and other publicity materials. When I queried this, Junghans told me that they changed to a darker tint because the lack of heavy tinting was interfering with radio reception. This does not make sense to me, but maybe someone else can comment? The dark tinting of the see through case back means that the movement is not easily visible, which is a shame as it is fascinating to look at. I initially ordered my watch with Junghans' cordovan leather strap, but as you will read further down, I received the stainless steel bracelet some months later. The quality of the cordovan leather strap is not particularly high. It is thin, flimsy, and rather cheap-looking, and I would imagine that anyone buying this watch would want to buy a decent leather band with a bit more thickness and substance to it.
> 
> View attachment 15559525​
> Junghans advertises a number of innovative features in its J101.65 and J101.66 movements. Some of these sound like marketing fluff but, for what it is worth, they are: i) ITC (Intelligent Time Correction) technology which synchronises the position of the second hand against the most recently received time information 1,440 times a day. In addition, the position of hour and minute hands gets checked daily by something Junghans calls a "Light Barrier" and the position of the date once a month. If necessary, e.g. after a shock or interference from a magnetic field, a correction is made, ii) SHM (Smart Hand Motion) technology which ensures precise indication of the seconds is by displaying the seconds in half-second steps, iii) Advanced Moving Function (AMF) which moves the hands a fraction of a second before the time changes. As a result what is shown is the actual time without any delay at all, and iv) a supposedly super-accurate quartz movement which Junghans claims is accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode (i.e. when the watch is out of range of a radio signal).
> 
> Junghans claims a two-year battery life when used in radio controlled mode. The watch uses a CR1025 (i.e. 10mm diameter x 2.5mm thick) 3 volt lithium battery, which is typically rated at 30mAh. This is a low power output when compared to most 3 volt button cells. While I am sure that Junghans looked at other cell sizes, they would have been limited by i) the need to use lithium manganese dioxide chemistry to provide 3v (the more common silver oxide button cells, normally designated by the SR prefix, only provide 1.5v), and ii) the overall depth available which, given the thinness of the movement, is not much. Even so, a CR1225 (i.e. 12mm x 2.5mm) button cell would be good for 50mAh, i.e. almost twice the CR1025 and only 2mm wider, and a CR1130 would provide 70mAh.
> 
> View attachment 15559534
> 
> 
> The watch has two modes of operation: normal radio controlled mode and "Quartz Mode" which is when the radio reception is switched off. According to Junghans, the watch in Quartz Mode is accurate to 8SPY. Putting the watch into Radio Controlled mode is a simple as pressing the side pusher in and holding for a couple of seconds. The watch responds with a fascinating display of different hands twirling around in different directions at different speeds before it settles down, locks in on a radio signal, and synchronises. Once in Radio Controlled mode there is no need to do anything more, and the watch synchronises itself every night at around 2a.m. and stays in Radio Controlled mode. Pushing the side button in and holding it in tells the watch to tell you which time signal station it is locked onto. It does this by moving the seconds hand to one of several different positions on the dial. You note this position then flip the watch over where a map is printed on the case-back. Personally, I do not see what the point of this is, but I suppose someone might find it useful. Watches with the see-though case back have the map printed on the dial instead of the case back, which I find a bit tacky. If you want to keep the watch in radio Controlled mode but are out of range of a radio station, Junghans have an iPhone app that emits a whale-like clicking noise which can be used to synch the watch. It is easy to use and can be set to use the iPhone's internal clock, or the NTC server. Junghans recommend using the NTC server, but do not offer any explanation as to why. I ran the watch in radio controlled mode for a few days and it works perfectly, keeping absolutely in synch with atomic time. But I was much more interested to try out Quartz Mode and test Junghans' claim of 8SPY.
> 
> Putting the watch into Quartz Mode and setting the correct year, month, date, and time is a bit fiddly, requiring pushing the pusher at different times and for different periods of time while the crown is in different positions. It is all set out clearly in the instruction manual. I put the watch into Quartz Mode and synchronised the watch using the time display on my iPhone. After one week, and with great anticipation, I checked the watch against my iPhone and was shocked to see that the watch had lost almost 5 seconds. I reset the watch, re-synched it and tried again - with the same result. I tried the same thing a number of times again, but used different references for setting the time such as WWV on shortwave, the telephone time speaking clock, time.com, the Junghans app time display, etc always using the same reference to set and the check the time after a week. I even changed the battery, making sure to buy a new CR1025 cell with several years left before expiry (when changing the battery I noticed that Junghans had mistakenly fitted a battery cover that said J101.65, not J101.66). The watch continued to lose approximately 5 seconds a week, which is approximately 260 seconds a year which is more than 30x the maximum deviation of 8SPY that Junghans claims. Something was clearly wrong. I also noticed that the hour hand was not lined up perfectly with the hour marker when the minute hand was at 12 o'clock. This really bugged me, particularly given that Junghans publishes a lot of PR fluff about its "light barrier" system that checks that the hands are correctly aligned.
> 
> I emailed Junghans Head of Product Development again and received the following reply:
> 
> _A standard quartz movement (i.e. from Swatch) is adjusted to +/-0.5 seconds a day while the Meister Mega is adjusted to +/- 8 seconds a year - both at 23°C. Anyway both movements are not temperature compensated so the accuracy will change with the temperature. The temperature drift for both movements follow a parabolic curve with a vertex of the parabola at 23°C. In case there is an increase or decrease of temperature the frequency will get lower and the watch is getting slower by following the below function:
> 
> f = f0 *[1-0,04ppm/°C2 * (T-T0)2]
> f: resulting frequency at temperature
> f0: frequency at 23°C
> -0,04ppm/°C2 : the maximum parabolic coefficient
> T: actual temperature
> T0: 23°C
> 
> The actual deviation is a sum of the temperature effect and the basic adjustment at 23°C. So if the cheap Swatch watch is advertised with +/-0.5 seconds a day or a Junghans with +/- 8 seconds a year this can be considered as misleading since it's both only at 23°C but this is a common practice and understanding in watch industry. Anyway we'll review our advertisement to be more precise on this.
> 
> Regarding the quartz frequency: the watch (Microcontroller) is getting a 32,768 Hz Signal indirect from the quartz. But the quartz has 32,760 Hz. This 32,760 Hz quartz is used for the receiver IC as a mixer together with another quartz. The resulting frequency at Microcontroller after pass through the receiver IC is 32,768 Hz.
> 
> The tolerance in gear travel is less than 1 minute but there is also some tolerance in hand assembling, dial, dial fixation etc. We perform the test at 6 o'clock and the maximum deviation is allowed to be +/- 2 minutes. So your misalignment with 7 minutes is definitely our mistake and we really apologise for that._
> 
> I contacted the official UK importer about the matter and received the most extraordinary, bizarre response. Basically, they told me that Junghans had decided that I was a "difficult customer" because of my frequent emails to the company (most of which went unanswered) and that it had been decided to offer me a full refund. When I pointed out that my watch i) was quite clearly NOT accurate to 8SPY in Quartz Mode, and ii) had an hour hand that did not line up accurately with the hour markers, the official UK importer said that Junghans was not Patek Philippe and that I was being unreasonable in expecting such high quality from a £1,000 watch. They said that I was clearly far more knowledgeable than most other customers and that, because of this, I would never be satisfied, no matter what Junghans did. I slightly got the impression that the official UK importer was frustrated with Junghans, possibly over misleading marketing claims or even quality control issues. Nonetheless, I was pretty annoyed with the UK importer and told them that I had spent good money on a watch and wanted the problem sorted out. After a week, they came back to me saying that Junghans would supply a replacement watch, and would take particular care to calibrate it and check that the hands were correctly aligned. Junghans wanted my watch back so that they could use the sapphire crystal (fair enough) and quoted a two week turnaround time. I dropped the watch off at the UK importer, and it was sent off to Junghans. About a week later I received an official apology from Junghans admitting that the hour hand had not been correctly aligned, and confirming that they would calibrate the new watch at 27*C, instead of the normal 23*C. This made more sense to me given that normal skin temperature is around 34*C. In light of Junghans' official apology, I told Junghans' official UK importer that I wanted Junghans to supply me with the optional stainless steel bracelet at no cost, as a way of compensating me for the trouble they had put me to . To their credit, Junghans agreed, and one week later the replacement watch arrived, resplendent in its stainless steel bracelet.
> 
> I wore the watch in Radio Controlled mode for a week to make sure that everything was working, which it was. The stainless steel bracelet is beautifully made. It has 9 segments across, 5 brushed and 4 highly polished, and a smooth, secure, and well-engineered butterfly clasp. Adjustment is via pins, and the whole bracelet exudes quality. I think it would look better with 7 or even 5 segments across instead of 9, but it still looks and feels superb. After a week of wearing it, I decided that the 4 highly polished segments were out of character with the watch, and decided to have them refinished in a fine brushed finish, to match the other 5 segments. I have a master watchmaker who has done outstanding high-quality work for me before, and he agreed to refinish the bracelet so that it was entirely brushed, and also to refinish the tops of the lugs so that they match the bracelet. I made it clear to him that he was not to disassemble the watch, or even remove the case back, and agreed a one to two week turnaround time at a reasonable cost. Before sending him the watch, I set it to Quartz Mode and synchronised the time, reasoning that it would spend the next couple of weeks in a stable environment.
> 
> View attachment 15559540​
> One and a half weeks later I got the watch back and congratulated the master watchmaker on an outstanding job. I was also eager to check the watch's timekeeping in Quartz Mode and was delighted to see that it had kept absolutely perfect time during its trip to the watchmaker (I confirmed with him that he had not re-set the time himself). For the first time in months I was now truly happy with the watch.
> 
> My happiness was not to last though. Over the following two weeks of operation in Quartz Mode the watch started losing time again. The deviation was now down to 3 seconds a week, an improvement on the earlier 5 seconds a week, but still nowhere near Junghans' promised 8SPY. The fact that the watch had kept perfect time during its 1 ½ weeks with the master watchmaker told me that there something about my environment or my use of the watch that was causing it to run slow. The reason that I always insist on my watches being water resistant to at least 5 ATM is that I wear them in the shower (yes, I know that 10 ATM is recommended&#8230. Could this be what was causing the watch to run slow? I measured the water temperature coming out of the shower head at 42.5*C. My shower is 10 minutes at most. If you assume that the water cools to 40*C by the time it hits the watch and plug these numbers into the standard equation for determining the frequency/temperature drift of an XY cut quartz oscillator: 0.035ppm / (40*C-23*C)^2 you get a timing difference of 0.1 seconds over a 10 minute exposure to a temperature of 40*C. Assuming one shower a day, this amounts to 0.7 seconds a week, 3 seconds a month, or 36.5 seconds a year. This is well within standards for a normal quartz watch, but my watch was losing 3 seconds a week which is more than four times what the equation tells us should be the case.
> 
> View attachment 15559543
> 
> 
> I think I have exhausted all options and have got as far as I can get. Junghans' claim of 8SPY is clearly nonsense in all but the most strictly controlled constant temperature conditions, and they have effectively admitted as much. But I do not understand why the watch performs so much worse in Quartz Mode than a cheap Swatch. I can live with it though, even though my confidence in Junghans' quality control has been severely and irreparably shaken by the first watch's terrible accuracy, misaligned hands, and incorrect battery cover. I will keep testing the watch in Quartz Mode to see if things get better, but will switch back to normal radio controlled mode in a month or so when I start (hopefully) travelling again.


Many thanks for this account. I am currently choosing an HAQ watch and was getting very excited by the possiblity of the combo of the 8SPY+RF+good looks. Very glad to have found out the truth before buying one. What a shame though, it otherwise ticked all my boxes.


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## Towr

hoverdonkey said:


> Many thanks for this account. I am currently choosing an HAQ watch and was getting very excited by the possiblity of the combo of the 8SPY+RF+good looks. Very glad to have found out the truth before buying one. What a shame though, it otherwise ticked all my boxes.


I'm in the same boat. I've been tempted by Junghans but it seems like a brand to stay away from.


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## bibbes67

I have bought a Junghans Form Mega 6 months ago. Since that time I had my watch just a few weeks at home due the same problems that are mentioned here.
The clock went too fast, about 1 second/day without reception of the radio-station. I sent the watch to Junghans. Junghans readjusted the EPROM. After that everything seemed to be fine- the clock went absolutely accurate. But now the clock-hands tried to readjust every day at 12:00 o'clock. I again sent the watch back to Junghans. This time the problem was a defect in the light barrier. After almost 4 weeks they returned the watch again to me. Now again the problem is back, that the clock has a deviation of about 1 second a day. I have now applied for conversion.


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## bibbes67

Hereby a picture of that beautiful watch...


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## simplify

Thanks for sharing these experiences. I'm a fan of Junghans and have both automatic and quartz watches from them - was excited by the technology in the mega solar lineup, but seems like they have some kinks to work out before its stable (and that's what I was most worried about).


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## Barbababa

I now own the new Max Bill MEGA Solar and it works as expected. Very happy so far


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## 6L35

Barbababa said:


> I now own the new Max Bill MEGA Solar and it works as expected. Very happy so far


Titanium & mesh?


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## Barbababa

6L35 said:


> Titanium & mesh?


Yes & No


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## Own2hands

Wow. I was so close to purchasing a Mega Solar. I think I will wait. Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone.


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## Barbababa

Own2hands said:


> Wow. I was so close to purchasing a Mega Solar. I think I will wait. Thanks for sharing your experiences everyone.


I just stated that I am happy with the solar mega, what did you read that changed your mind?


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## Own2hands

Lack of HAQ timekeeping other than radio control. I am in the south east US and worry about getting reliable reception or the tower being defunded. In either of those scenarios, I would have paid a premium for a standard quartz movement. I have a Seiko 33mm thermo compensated HAQ that I really like. The Junghans would have been a great upgrade with solar and radio control.

Customer service sounds a little rough.

Plexi crystal with coating may not respond well to polywatch. I would guess that they can do a sapphire upgrade, but sounds like it would be really expensive. My 33mm HAQ has sapphire. I have worn it backstage at work on occasion and didn't worry about the crystal at all. I have chipped a mineral crystal on a different watch at the same job in the past.

I originally searched this thread to see if anyone experienced the case back screws backing out over time on the Junghans. I have never had a non-plastic watch with that case back design.

I think the grey prices for the Junghans Mega are a good value. I will keep my eye open for more owner comments.


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