# Kingston Prices



## AdamR

Hi all,

Just a quick note to share that there is a Kingston for sale right now on WUS sales forum...
Non-plank, worn a few times - 1899$ asking price... I wonder how much it will sell for...

As far as I know I think we're still around 1600$ for a plank Kingston, right? or is it still going up?

Note: the pics are of my Kingston. I just like adding pics if I can 

Cheers!
Adam


----------



## curt941

Saw that. Can't believe it. Wasn't a plank Kingston like $1k brand new?


----------



## BigHaole

Is there any talk of doing an additional run of Kingston (or Kingston "style") watches? With resale prices that high, there is clearly demand for this watch. I'd like to see Bill benefit from this demand.


----------



## INDECS

BigHaole said:


> Is there any talk of doing an additional run of Kingston (or Kingston "style") watches? With resale prices that high, there is clearly demand for this watch. I'd like to see Bill benefit from this demand.


I think Bill's main concern right now is delivering the first run of Kingstons before he thinks of an additional run. 

But yeah, there has indeed been talk about a general release Kingston. Though it will be quite different... small crown, non gilt, no Kingston name on the dial.


----------



## TheGanzman

There was a no-date gilt dial, gold hand, BK-W9 Plank Kingston that some dude had up a coupla weeks ago for US$2,100.00; never tagged as "Sold", IIRC...


----------



## AdamR

@Kurt941: I think that the first 100 planks were sold for even less than 1k actually, but I am NOT sure. I don't remember where but I read 700$ somewhere, but I just have a hard time believing it, eventhough we all know Bill keeps his prices very reasonable. But anything is possible, maybe someone can answer that? 
Last december Bill had a few Kingstons slots open up, so a few reservations were for sale, he made an announcement and a couple weeks later it was on the site for a very short while. He said about those new slots that they would be more expensive than the original price but nowhere near the crazy prices they are going for on the forum (I'm paraphrasing). If my memory serves me right, it was somewhere between 900$ & 999$. 

@INDECS: thanks for that info  very interesting. No gilt though? If that is so, the only reason I could think of to not offer a gilt dial/hands would be out of respect to the people who bought the Kingston as a limited edition... because outside of that it seems that the gilt dial/hands is by FAR the most popular, right?


----------



## White Tuna

I believe that it has been stated that a gilt dial may be an option for the MKII GMT. Also, please forgive me but I did see a GREAT looking non-gilt Kingston posted. I was VERY interested in it but when the last ~10 opened up on November first gilt was the only option. Also BGW9 was also the only option IIRC. The cost with the NATO strap, shipping and 6 position regulation came to $1089.95 without any spare parts kit. My general order/phase 3 came to $984.95 with the same options. 

This is why I believe the plank kits will hover AT LEAST around $1,000 dollars since a person who ordered GO not want to take too much of a bath if they wish to sell for some reason. General orders do not have the spare parts kit so they will be less desireable on the resale market.


----------



## powerband

As far as the gilt hand/dial Kingston that I have on my wrist right now, I've thought about this a lot: I'd happily pay $1,800 for it. Cost and worth are different things. To me, in its comparison to other expensive watches I've owned, the Kingston is worth that much.

Best,


----------



## Arthur

curt941 said:


> Saw that. Can't believe it. Wasn't a plank Kingston like $1k brand new?


Original Planks were a little under 800.00 USD with kit, 2nd stage around the same price less the kit. As far as the prices, the last few plank kits have all sold in the 1600.00 USD price range. I haven't seem a completed sale for a 2nd stage non plank, but iwould suspect something in the range of 1200-1300 USD would be realistic. The particular watch mentioned here is a 2nd stage, no spare parts kit, and I would guess the price the seller is asking is quite high. Having said that, something is worth what a willing seller and a willing buyer agree on, so if someone wants a Kingston really badly, and has the cash, who knows? Another thing I have noticed the number of Kingstons coming up for sale has dropped off in the past weeks. In fact there was a 3 week span on WUS between the last one for sale and this one.


----------



## powerband

And sold:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mkii-kingston-644759.html

Not sure if it sold for a different price than what is marked in the post, but I would not be surprised if it sold of asking.


----------



## Thieuster

Over on the TZ-UK is one for sale for quite a while now; it's a 'plank' version. Price has been dropped several times: 1100 GBP at the mo.

Menno


----------



## powerband

Thieuster said:


> Over on the TZ-UK is one for sale for quite a while now; it's a 'plank' version. Price has been dropped several times: 1100 GBP at the mo.
> 
> Menno


Currently, 1100 GBP is USD $1,731.


----------



## sunster

Please remember those of us in Europe have to pay 20% odd extra on customs taxes


----------



## Fullers1845

I'm the buyer of the watch in question, and I couldn't be happier. I'll let the seller reveal the purchase price if he wants to. Worth every penny, IMO.


----------



## powerband

Hey, Nice! Congrats. 
I agree: worth every penny!
Great picture, too.
Wearing mine as typing...


----------



## sunster

There's an unused one for sale in tz-uk for £1100 which is good considering the owner had to pay customs on his order in the first place. Just in case anyone is interested


----------



## AdamR

It really is! I love mine, it's my favourite watch. I sold most of them...



Fullers1845 said:


> I'm the buyer of the watch in question, and I couldn't be happier. I'll let the seller reveal the purchase price if he wants to. Worth every penny, IMO.


----------



## AdamR

Plus the model you got has that great simple balance I love: no date, gilt dial and bezel without markers on the first quarter of the bezel. It makes it so simple and SO sharp.


----------



## Arthur

As we have said before, a willing seller and a willing buyer make a deal. I'm sure both of you are satisfied with thetransaction. One thing I have learned to do, and it's sometimes very difficult is to not look back at a deal I made. When you pay what you think is a pretty fair price for something, don't beat yourself up if the same item comes up for sale later at a lower price. I'm sure you will enjoy the Kingston, the configuration you got is my favorite.

On another note, someone got a really nice deal on a Plank kit which sold in a heartbeat to the first person to respond. The asking price was 1400.00 USD !! Watch was used, but looked real nice. Unfortunately, only one person will win out on a deal like that. You could watch the sales forum for a year, and you might be lucky enough to be searching the Kingstons for sale ads, at the same time one is posted for that kind of price. Get there 30 minutes later and it's gone!!


----------



## Fullers1845

AdamR said:


> Plus the model you got has that great simple balance I love: no date, gilt dial and bezel without markers on the first quarter of the bezel. It makes it so simple and SO sharp.


Exactly why I love it. I sold my Rolex 14060M nearly a year ago and have missed the symmetrical simplicity of the no-date Sub Dial.


----------



## Fullers1845

Arthur said:


> As we have said before, a willing seller and a willing buyer make a deal. I'm sure both of you are satisfied with thetransaction. One thing I have learned to do, and it's sometimes very difficult is to not look back at a deal I made. When you pay what you think is a pretty fair price for something, don't beat yourself up if the same item comes up for sale later at a lower price. I'm sure you will enjoy the Kingston, the configuration you got is my favorite.
> 
> On another note, someone got a really nice deal on a Plank kit which sold in a heartbeat to the first person to respond. The asking price was 1400.00 USD !! Watch was used, but looked real nice. Unfortunately, only one person will win out on a deal like that. You could watch the sales forum for a year, and you might be lucky enough to be searching the Kingstons for sale ads, at the same time one is posted for that kind of price. Get there 30 minutes later and it's gone!!


Agreed. I subscribe to the adage that one difference between men and women is: A woman will buy something she doesn't need just because it is on sale. A man will pay more than necessary to get something he really wants. WIS interpretation: Buy the watch, not the deal. The Kingston is a winner, hands down in that department.


----------



## zivadavis

Arthur said:


> As we have said before, a willing seller and a willing buyer make a deal. I'm sure both of you are satisfied with thetransaction. One thing I have learned to do, and it's sometimes very difficult is to not look back at a deal I made. When you pay what you think is a pretty fair price for something, don't beat yourself up if the same item comes up for sale later at a lower price. I'm sure you will enjoy the Kingston, the configuration you got is my favorite.
> 
> *On another note, someone got a really nice deal on a Plank kit which sold in a heartbeat to the first person to respond. The asking price was 1400.00 USD !! Watch was used, but looked real nice. Unfortunately, only one person will win out on a deal like that. You could watch the sales forum for a year, and you might be lucky enough to be searching the Kingstons for sale ads, at the same time one is posted for that kind of price. Get there 30 minutes later and it's gone!!*


*

*well....truth be told i am that someone, who in all honesty, literally blindly stumbled onto that plank kit by accident about an hour after it was posted on wus for sale and i was somehow the first person other than the seller to view the for sale thread in the very early morning hours...i was not even looking for plank kits at the time....i had completely missed the kingston boat from the initial pre-order plank offering (first stage kits) all the way to the back-up waiting list for the general ordering offering as i was completely unaware of mkii products or its existance.....all lists etc were overly full and "sold out" for a very long time by the time i had discovered mkii watches and became enchanted with mr yao's work and the watches he offers for sale....had i known about mkii watches when the kingston was first offered as a pre-order in plank kit form i would have been on the list for at least one kit with zero hesitation...

that all said i had passed on several new unworn "plank kits" that had been put up for sale on other boards/forums during the recent holidays for the exact same asking price as this one cost ($1400)...some were first stage plank kits with all the goodies and some were later stage planks without the extras....i passed on the planks i had previously seen during the holidays as they were in a configuration that was not to my liking (date window present) and i wanted a no date version of the kingston with or without plank kit....

yes the plank kit #5X i bought is pre-owned and has been used/worn a few times by the seller who was the original owner BUT other than a trivial very superficial scuff/swirly on the bracelet clasp locking tab and an even more trivial scuff on the side of the case opposite the crown it is pristine....i could have easily put more "character" on the watch during my first or second wearing than was present when the watch arrived 2 days ago....basically the watch was in much better condition overall than the seller had described.....all of the first stage plank extras are present and had been left unopened and untouched by the seller including the extra gaskets and their shipping container that apparently were shipped under seperate cover

it doesn't matter to me what the original owner paid or what the initial offering planks all the way to the general ordering pieces cost from mkii...the watch alone, to me, is well worth more than the price i paid for the entire plank kit...the kingston is that nice of a watch...i do not often feel that paying more than the initial asking price especially for a pre-owned/used piece is worth it but in this case i feel it is....i'll say it again "the kingston is that nice of a watch"....

zivadavis


----------



## Arthur

Congratulations and welcome to MKII watches. You did indeed get a great deal, as well as a very nice watch with a great configuration. Enjoy it and by all means WEAR IT!! These were meant to be worn, just like the vintage Rolexes it was modeled after.


----------



## powerband

zivadavis said:


> it doesn't matter to me what the original owner paid or what the initial offering planks all the way to the general ordering pieces cost from mkii...the watch alone, to me, is well worth more than the price i paid for the entire plank kit...the kingston is that nice of a watch...i do not often feel that paying more than the initial asking price especially for a pre-owned/used piece is worth it but in this case i feel it is....i'll say it again "the kingston is that nice of a watch"....
> 
> zivadavis


Fore sure!


----------



## ds99

mkii kingstons, with no plank kits are selling for about $1,700 these days. and they sell REAL QUICK!


----------



## White Tuna

ds99 said:


> mkii kingstons, with no plank kits are selling for about $1,700 these days. and they sell REAL QUICK!


USED


----------



## lipjin

There was a plank kit sold for 2200 a couple days ago. Getting a little crazy.


----------



## ds99

i think its because they only made 300 and there really isnt any else like it, sure there are other rolex submariner clones, but none which look quite right, and a used 6538 rolex is $35,000 and even a used 14060m, which doesnt really look like a 1950s rolex at all,will cost you $5,000. and the tudor black bay, which has the same movement as the kingston is $4,000.

when look at these prices, suddenly used kingston prices make a bit more sense.


----------



## ds99

some recent ebay kingston sales......

MKII Kingston Automatic Watch Excellent Condition BGW9 Lume Gilt Dial | eBay

MKII Kingston Automatic Watch Plank Kit Excellent Condition Limited Edition | eBay


----------



## Fullers1845

ds99 said:


> some recent ebay kingston sales......
> 
> MKII Kingston Automatic Watch Excellent Condition BGW9 Lume Gilt Dial | eBay
> 
> MKII Kingston Automatic Watch Plank Kit Excellent Condition Limited Edition | eBay


Well the listings have ended. Can we confirm that they were actually sold?


----------



## ds99

no, but look at kingston prices on WatchRecon - they are all about $1,600 - $1,800 for a non-plank used one and they sell pretty damn quick.


----------



## Eugeneglen

Price are getting crazy, Am feel so lucky am one of the owner!


----------



## tmoris

When i bought the 007 serial less than half a year ago, i was pretty confident that its gonna be a good investment even at a small premium. Its nice to see prices going up asuring me about the decision 

Sent from my HTC using Tapatalk


----------



## Thieuster

My wife is currently wearing my (plank) Kingston on a Hirsch (I think) strap. I asked her to be extra careful with the watch, since prices are up every day...

Menno


----------



## Plat0

Yeah. Looks like the Kingston prices are out of my tolerable range (I don't mind spending that amount on a watch or more, I have a problem with morons inflating the market way too fast). Looks like I'll be a Nassau owner and be content with that.


----------



## ds99

you could say the same about Rolex or Omega used prices. they are also inflated. is a 1950s rolex really worth $35,000??


----------



## Darwin

Look at what some people are asking for used Nassaus. Insanity when you can buy from Bill for $895. Most egregious example is on eBay right now: $2999! Lots in the $1025 - 1250 range, though.


----------



## elbilo

i agree. the prices are certainly getting to a range where i couldn't justify a purchase. i'm just glad the kingston didn't appeal to me much, or else i'd go crazy trying to get one at a fair/reasonable price. i actually like the nassau better, specifically the upcoming explorer dial, so hopefully i'll have the funds to get in on that when it comes out. then again, i'm wondering if i should hold out and wait for a non-date version, assuming there will be one.



Plat0 said:


> Yeah. Looks like the Kingston prices are out of my tolerable range (I don't mind spending that amount on a watch or more, I have a problem with morons inflating the market way too fast). Looks like I'll be a Nassau owner and be content with that.


----------



## ds99

the nassau is not available on the mkii website anymore, hence the absurd prices elsewhere


----------



## buzz819

ds99 said:


> the nassau is not available on the mkii website anymore, hence the absurd prices elsewhere


You haven't been about in a while! Their back up, lead time is 26 weeks though...

Buzz


----------



## heebs

ds99 said:


> the nassau is not available on the mkii website anymore, hence the absurd prices elsewhere


Actually, Nassau ordering has just recently been opened up again, although the lead time on a Nassau is now 26 weeks, whereas it used to be 14. People have caught on and are fully willing to wait (somewhat) patiently for Master Bill's work.


----------



## ds99

if they re-open ordering for the kingston then i wonder if thats going to lower used kingston prices?


----------



## buzz819

ds99 said:


> if they re-open ordering for the kingston then i wonder if thats going to lower used kingston prices?


Did you mean to write Kingston or Nassau in your original post?

The Nassau is reopened, the Kingston is still shut.

Buzz


----------



## ds99

if they re-open ordering for the kingston in the future, then i wonder if thats going to lower used kingston prices? i guess it depends on if the watch is exactly the same as the original batch of kingstons

anyway, yes kingstons are overpriced. but a) you get what you pay for in this world, and b) the market will dictate the prices.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

ds99 said:


> if they re-open ordering for the kingston in the future, then i wonder if thats going to lower used kingston prices? i guess it depends on if the watch is exactly the same as the original batch of kingstons
> 
> anyway, yes kingstons are overpriced. but a) you get what you pay for in this world, and b) the market will dictate the prices.


:roll: The Kingston was strictly a Limited Edition of 300 watches -- My understanding is that they won't be back.

-Hence the prices, driven up by the rule of supply versus demand. :think:


----------



## buzz819

ds99 said:


> if they re-open ordering for the kingston in the future, then i wonder if thats going to lower used kingston prices? i guess it depends on if the watch is exactly the same as the original batch of kingstons
> 
> anyway, yes kingstons are overpriced. but a) you get what you pay for in this world, and b) the market will dictate the prices.


If it were re-opened and stock available in a timely manner, of course the prices would drop...

Buzz


----------



## White Tuna

Kingston Limited Edition was limited to 300 pieces, of which I believe all have been delivered, so it is highly unlikely that the Kingston ordering will be opened.

The next best bet will be the MKII Key West which may also have a gilt dialed option. That may affect the Kingston Prices but I am not sure if it will have much affect and it could also increase demand for the Kingston.

The Kingston is a really nice watch and my everyday companion.


----------



## navyman

I agree with White Tuna. The Kingston is a really nice watch. It is so nice that I actually have two a gilt date and a gilt non date. I couldn't decide which I would like better that is why I have two. I bought mine used at a premium price and feel that they are worth every penny. Even if prices go down I am happy with them.


----------



## gman54

Thieuster said:


> My wife is currently wearing my (plank) Kingston on a Hirsch (I think) strap. I asked her to be extra careful with the watch, since prices are up every day...
> 
> Menno


 That's why I bought a Nassau and ordered a GMT plank for my wife... hoping that she will quit looking longingly at my DLD Kingston.


----------



## Mrwozza70

I've a theory that since the Nassau has become available that some Kingston owners are feeling they can let their limited watches go and fill the void left with the almost as wonderful Nassau. And those poor craving WIS out there (me included) cannot resist the urge to own to own those limited pieces that come onto the market rather than wait for a Nassau or whatever might be in store in the future. 

I've no problem with people inflating the prices as this is simply supply and demand. The prices will probably remain high until there is a competing object of desire. All testament to the quality of Bill's watches and how we value them as owners and buyers.


----------



## Darwin

Today on the sales board: plank kit (gilt dial, no date) Kingston $2500 and Kingston Gilt Dial with date $1850... market is heating up!


----------



## tmoris

Darwin said:


> Today on the sales board: plank kit (gilt dial, no date) Kingston $2500 and Kingston Gilt Dial with date $1850... market is heating up!


sick! if this sells, i might even put up the 007 on ebay from $1 and see what happens


----------



## White Tuna

tmoris said:


> sick! if this sells, i might even put up the 007 on ebay from $1 and see what happens


For what you paid for it I am not sure if I would risk it on eBay with a $1 minimum. I think you could do quite well on a watch forum.

BTW: I do not think that $2,000 would be excessive for a new non-plank kit but of course YMMV.


----------



## AlphaWolf777

i noticed a lot of Kingstons and Nassaus up for sale as of late.


----------



## White Tuna

AlphaWolf777 said:


> i noticed a lot of Kingstons and Nassaus up for sale as of late.


Kingston sales had slowed down for a few weeks then a nice sale and they have started again.


----------



## Darwin

I'm SERIOUSLY tempted by the non-plank Kingston with date... I've drafted three or four inquiries about availability and shipping to Canada to the seller that I have not sent because I am trying to be good at the moment. Being good is hard. The Kingston was the watch that originally drew me to MKII. If I knew for sure that a Nassau with date at the 3 o'clock position on an otherwise standard Nassau dial was a possibility, I would wait and order a new one direct from Bill. As it stands, I keep torturing myself, trawling the sales boards and writing notes that I never send. Cripes! I'm like a lovesick middle schooler!


----------



## White Tuna

Darwin said:


> I'm SERIOUSLY tempted by the non-plank Kingston with date... I've drafted three or four inquiries about availability and shipping to Canada to the seller that I have not sent because I am trying to be good at the moment. Being good is hard. The Kingston was the watch that originally drew me to MKII. If I knew for sure that a Nassau with date at the 3 o'clock position on an otherwise standard Nassau dial was a possibility, I would wait and order a new one direct from Bill. As it stands, I keep torturing myself, trawling the sales boards and writing notes that I never send. Cripes! I'm like a lovesick middle schooler!


Get a GMT.


----------



## Darwin

I've been tempted by the idea of the GMT, but never ventured too far into the Project GMT thread to find a rendering of it. Glad you spurred me to do so - I like it! Will definitely be interested to see what options are offered for bezel inserts and handsets (will read the thread carefully, now - this question may already be partially answered there). Thank you, White Tuna. Just the sort of reality check that I needed: there will be other MKII offerings down the pike. Patience grasshopper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, patience! How long will that take?


----------



## Dave Wallace

Darwin said:


> I've been tempted by the idea of the GMT, but never ventured too far into the Project GMT thread to find a rendering of it. Glad you spurred me to do so - I like it! Will definitely be interested to see what options are offered for bezel inserts and handsets (will read the thread carefully, now - this question may already be partially answered there). Thank you, White Tuna. Just the sort of reality check that I needed: there will be other MKII offerings down the pike. Patience grasshopper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, patience! How long will that take?


I gave in on a Kingston a while back, actually wore it for my wedding this last weekend. It is a great watch, best I own by far. I am also looking forward to the GMT. I am setting money to the side as we speak, just not real sure when when it will come out so it is hard to plan...but patience will pay off I am sure!


----------



## Arthur

The Kingston's have definitely bucked the usual trend with watches.In most cases, the prices go down, some pretty drastically. What lots of folks don't realize is those very expensive Rolex watches actually didn't start to appreciate until about 25 or so years ago. Back in the late 70's and early 80's you could hardly give a Daytona away. They didn't become a cult classic for many years.
The Kingston is selling at a premium I believe for two reasons, one it is such a well made watch, by far the best homage to the Rolex 6538 to come down the pike, and actually selling now at it's true value, and second it's truly a very small run limited edition. Only 300 built, and no guys, there aren't going to be any more!!! I believe that Bill is a man true to his word, and he said all along there would be thee runs of 100 each, and that was it. So, if you don't have one already, your only hope is the secondary market,and obviously the demand still exceeds the supply, thus the prices are at least steady, if not higher.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ds99

Mkii could REALLY clean up if they made 300 more. They could easily sell them for $2,000 each.


----------



## White Tuna

Darwin said:


> I've been tempted by the idea of the GMT, but never ventured too far into the Project GMT thread to find a rendering of it. Glad you spurred me to do so - I like it! Will definitely be interested to see what options are offered for bezel inserts and handsets (will read the thread carefully, now - this question may already be partially answered there). Thank you, White Tuna. Just the sort of reality check that I needed: there will be other MKII offerings down the pike. Patience grasshopper. Yeah, yeah, yeah, patience! How long will that take?


Talk is of a gilt dial and Mercedes hands on the black one, though the hands may be smaller like the Nassau? So that is why I mentioned it as it could be a pretty nice replacement for the Kingston to those who are patient, think they can get in on it when it opens up and do not mind the GMT and Date. Good luck!


----------



## Arthur

ds99 said:


> Mkii could REALLY clean up if they made 300 more. They could easily sell them for $2,000 each.


Bill could, but he won't. If you do something like that, you betray the trust of those folks who invested in the Kingston project and then waited for a couple of years to see it come to fruition. These loyal fans are the backbone of a small companies success.

Other MKII watches have been introduced,sold for a time, and then retired, so the Kingston limited edition run is not something new.

There are and will be plenty of other opportunities to own a nice MKII in the future, just not a brand new Kingston.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## White Tuna

Arthur said:


> Bill could, but he won't. If you do something like that, you betray the trust of those folks who invested in the Kingston project and then waited for a couple of years to see it come to fruition. These loyal fans are the backbone of a small companies success.
> 
> Other MKII watches have been introduced,sold for a time, and then retired, so the Kingston limited edition run is not something new.
> 
> There are and will be plenty of other opportunities to own a nice MKII in the future, just not a brand new Kingston.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I know I have a brand new Kingston sitting in the box with plastic wrap and I am sure there are a few others. This BNIB plank kit just sold within the last day: https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/bnib-mkii-mk-ii-kingston-no-date-878626.html


----------



## Plat0

Arthur said:


> Bill could, but he won't. If you do something like that, you betray the trust of those folks who invested in the Kingston project and then waited for a couple of years to see it come to fruition. These loyal fans are the backbone of a small companies success.


To play devils advocate (and maybe reveal my true feelings?), bill should reintroduce the things that made the Kingston special, namely the gilt dial). I would pay a premium directly to Bill for a Nassau with a gilt dial knowing that the money will go to a well deserved place and not the pockets of some "fan" who hasn't even unwrapped their Kingston yet. And that's another thing... These supposed "fans" who would be "betrayed" if Bill were to reintroduce the Kingston due to HEAVY demand. Anybody ever take Bills feelings into account? How many "fans" have already betrayed MKII by not enjoying their wrapped up Kingston's but instead flip them till their value triples in value?

You'll see this a lot in life I guess... Don't mind me. I'm just bursting with envy of those who get to strap a Kingston to their wrist in the morning.


----------



## heebs

Plat0 said:


> To play devils advocate (and maybe reveal my true feelings?), bill should reintroduce the things that made the Kingston special, namely the gilt dial). I would pay a premium directly to Bill for a Nassau with a gilt dial knowing that the money will go to a well deserved place and not the pockets of some "fan" who hasn't even unwrapped their Kingston yet. And that's another thing... These supposed "fans" who would be "betrayed" if Bill were to reintroduce the Kingston due to HEAVY demand. Anybody ever take Bills feelings into account? How many "fans" have already betrayed MKII by not enjoying their wrapped up Kingston's but instead flip them till their value triples in value?
> 
> You'll see this a lot in life I guess... Don't mind me. I'm just bursting with envy of those who get to strap a Kingston to their wrist in the morning.


DOUBLE LIKE and very well put. I think the same thing when I see a plastic wrapped Kingston in the sales forum. I also hope that the new models (GMT, 300) end up on wrists and not in safes to be sold a year or 2 later.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

White Tuna said:


> I know I have a brand new Kingston sitting in the box with plastic wrap and I am sure there are a few others. This BNIB plank kit just sold within the last day: https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/bnib-mkii-mk-ii-kingston-no-date-878626.html


Hey White Tuna, 

*Why don't you wear it?* I have a hunch that people have purchased these as *Investments*, based on their appreciation as a result of *demand,* driven by *desire*.

I know I was waiting for the stock market to peak before I made a change the other day, and moved some money off of stocks and back to bonds, as the market dropped. :think: Perhaps some are doing a similar thing with their 'closet-ed' Kingstons....wondering if the value has peaked, so they realize maximum appreciation. _Perhaps they are trying to do what I was never good at, buying low and selling high..._ :think:

Anyway, I'm not sure the one you linked to was a plank kit. It looks to me, to be one of the last ones to be produced, maybe left over to the end, as the result of 'plankers' or others who fell out of the Project sometime before it ended. After following closely on the forum here, it appears there were as many as four or five that shipped in April just before Bill went to Basel.

I am eagerly awaiting my *Key West*, and whatever the dial ends up to be, black or white, I am sure it will tickle some of the same nerve-endings Kingston has stroked, _if you catch my drift..._.In a Good Way. ;-)

And after reading about the new 3-6-9 stealth-date dial coming on the Nassau, with the new blasted-silver plate dial as explained by Bill in a previous post, I know there are spectacular developments ahead, which will result in even more MKII's in my little collection.  _I can't wait to see that one 'up close and personal' - But I guess I'll have to.... (Patience, just a little patience...) _ ;-)

-Best to You, Have a Good Day!-


----------



## Darwin

No, White Tuna is right - there have been at least three plank kits on offer - two with date - in the past couple of weeks. One with date was $2200 and one without date $2500 (I think that is the ad White Tuna wanted to link to but the ad has already disappeared). The other with date was $1975, if memory serves? That ad has gone by-by as well!


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Darwin said:


> No, White Tuna is right - there have been at least three plank kits on offer - two with date - in the past couple of weeks. One with date was $2200 and one without date $2500 (I think that is the ad White Tuna wanted to link to but the ad has already disappeared). The other with date was $1975, if memory serves? That ad has gone by-by as well!


The same seller (as linked to above) had another 'used or worn' date-dialed Kingston that he sold previously. According to the listings both watches were purchased from MKII in April 2013. There was another $2500 plank kit no-date Kingston listed from a different seller previously....I know, because I was trying to get it...someone else beat me to the punch on that one...._(I must be slowing down in my advancing age)_....;-)

Anyway, prices are definitely up, driven by demand and desire....

-Best-


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Arthur said:


> Bill could, but he won't. If you do something like that, you betray the trust of those folks who invested in the Kingston project and then waited for a couple of years to see it come to fruition. These loyal fans are the backbone of a small companies success.
> 
> Other MKII watches have been introduced,sold for a time, and then retired, so the Kingston limited edition run is not something new.
> 
> There are and will be plenty of other opportunities to own a nice MKII in the future, just not a brand new Kingston.


:think: Let's count 'em down... 

*Nassau* (now available for order at MKII)

*Project 300* (sapphire bezel, classic RN-SM300 design, modern homage-improvement)

Project GMT, aka *'Key West*' (gilt GMT date-dial, black or white, 'kingston-design-based' case and bracelet)

MKII *Fulcrum* (LRRP-based evolutionary development of lineage...)

*'Nassau'* (3-6-9 stealth-date dial with chemically-etched iridescent silver substrate - evolutionary development from Kingston)

I would say that if one looks at this from an evolutionary point-of-view, with the Kingston as the 'origin' of the species, *the Kingston's influence and heritage certainly live on*...Kingston begat Project GMT, Nassau, Nassau descendants...and so one, and so on....;-)

|>|>


----------



## White Tuna

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Hey White Tuna,
> 
> *Why don't you wear it?* I have a hunch that people have purchased these as *Investments*, based on their appreciation as a result of *demand,* driven by *desire*.
> 
> I know I was waiting for the stock market to peak before I made a change the other day, and moved some money off of stocks and back to bonds, as the market dropped. :think: Perhaps some are doing a similar thing with their 'closet-ed' Kingstons....wondering if the value has peaked, so they realize maximum appreciation. _Perhaps they are trying to do what I was never good at, buying low and selling high..._ :think:
> 
> Anyway, I'm not sure the one you linked to was a plank kit. It looks to me, to be one of the last ones to be produced, maybe left over to the end, as the result of 'plankers' or others who fell out of the Project sometime before it ended. After following closely on the forum here, it appears there were as many as four or five that shipped in April just before Bill went to Basel.
> 
> I am eagerly awaiting my *Key West*, and whatever the dial ends up to be, black or white, I am sure it will tickle some of the same nerve-endings Kingston has stroked, _if you catch my drift..._.In a Good Way. ;-)
> 
> And after reading about the new 3-6-9 stealth-date dial coming on the Nassau, with the new blasted-silver plate dial as explained by Bill in a previous post, I know there are spectacular developments ahead, which will result in even more MKII's in my little collection.  _I can't wait to see that one 'up close and personal' - But I guess I'll have to.... (Patience, just a little patience...) _ ;-)
> 
> -Best to You, Have a Good Day!-


I wear a Kingston as my daily wear with a couple of other watches (White Tuna) in the rotation. 

After missing out on the plank and first general order I got in on the last general order phase (just dumb luck) and placed a deposit for a MKII Kingston on or slightly before *Tue 9/14/2010 10:48 AM*. You have no idea how lucky I felt knowing my Kingston was only months away! I paid my balance on or slightly before *Sun 6/26/2011 10:49 PM*. Iwill say I made a mistake, paid too much, and had a problem with my order and opened a ticket. Contrary to MKII folklore communications were great and no problems. 

_The ticket was resolved within 24 hours. _

Bill announced in this thread that he was going to make the last few Kingston's available for purchase: 

https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/kingston-general-ordering-599150.html

These last few Kingston's were offered at an increased price and with 6 way regulation (*TOTALLY WORTH IT! WILL DO AGAIN!*),shipping and Bond NATO were a little less than $1,100 with no plank kit. I PM'd a few people who had PM'd me months earlier stating their interest in purchasing my Kingston, which I did not have yet, and I do not think a single one purchased one of these Kingston's. At first I resisted the urge to order my second Kingston. The watches sat there all day and I could not resist any longer and placed my order. The watches finally sold out and ordering was closed the next day. I was floored that the watches lasted that long. 

So people who think I am aan ass to people who mention slow response, lack of communication, lack of hand holding and long walks on the beach by Bill, please note that at the time I ordered my second Kingston I had only had 4 correspondences in about a year with MKII and would have had much less if I had not made a mistake and still had no watch. 

Prior to the time these Kingston's were made available Kingston's were going for about $1,500 on the secondary market and there was a lot of discussion about where prices were going and when the "bubble" was going to burst. Many people were selling their Kingston's at this time as they received them stating the wait was a huge turn off for them, changed taste and I am sure because the after market prices were profitable. I wonder if any of thosepeople regret those sales now? 

Here is a thread with poll discussing Kingston prices for those who have more time then sense:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f325/what-will-used-kingston-worth-485001.html

I received my build in progress for my second Kingston the end of May 2012 and the watch itself the middle of June. I received the build in progress of my original Kingston prior to the delivery of that Kingston. So I never wore or tried on that second Kingston. I waited for my original order to be delivered in July. I have been wearing that watch as my daily watch once I received the Hadley Roma and had itsized. 

I personally really like my watch and it was running spot on for time until it took a few trips off the night stand around April. 

I have no plans to sell either Kingston now but due to financial reasons I may actually have to sell my second Kingston to pay the balance on my GMT orders.

I know that is a lot of words and I am sure most will not read it but I thought I would put it out there for the purists.


----------



## White Tuna

Plat0 said:


> To play devils advocate (and maybe reveal my true feelings?), bill should reintroduce the things that made the Kingston special, namely the gilt dial). I would pay a premium directly to Bill for a Nassau with a gilt dial knowing that the money will go to a well deserved place and not the pockets of some "fan" who hasn't even unwrapped their Kingston yet. And that's another thing... These supposed "fans" who would be "betrayed" if Bill were to reintroduce the Kingston due to HEAVY demand. Anybody ever take Bills feelings into account? How many "fans" have already betrayed MKII by not enjoying their wrapped up Kingston's but instead flip them till their value triples in value?
> 
> You'll see this a lot in life I guess... Don't mind me. I'm just bursting with envy of those who get to strap a Kingston to their wrist in the morning.


Some people already feel betrayed because the Key West may have a gilt dial. I am not one of them.


----------



## Plat0

White Tuna said:


> Some people already feel betrayed because the Key West may have a gilt dial. I am not one of them.


And to the people who do feel betrayed: to heck with them!

Bill will do what he has to do. MKII is a business who happens to make some pretty remarkable art we can strap to our wrists. I do realize that actually crafting the gilt dials is a painstaking duty that I'm sure Bill just simply cannot outright pull off with the limitation of his small operation (with his beloved OCD for perfection). But that damn dial is just so stunning its a shame to me to watch others profit from his crafts more than he does.

Am I shooting myself in the foot by prompting a MKII price increase?


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Plat0 said:


> And to the people who do feel betrayed: to heck with them!
> 
> Bill will do what he has to do. MKII is a business who happens to make some pretty remarkable art we can strap to our wrists. I do realize that actually crafting the gilt dials is a painstaking duty that I'm sure Bill just simply cannot outright pull off with the limitation of his small operation (with his beloved OCD for perfection). But that damn dial is just so stunning its a shame to me to watch others profit from his crafts more than he does.
> 
> Am I shooting myself in the foot by prompting a MKII price increase?


I don't believe you are prompting a price increase that Bill has already announced concerning the Nassau. :think:

I see (and have personally experienced) extraordinary value in Bill's creations. I don't mind paying more to own these, if the price goes up - and it most likely will increase, as the cost of everything seems to do. :roll:

To me, even though the secondary-market Kingston price has increased (driven by desire and demand) - the Kingston, even at $2000, is still a good value, maybe even a great or superb one! ;-)

As noted above though, I believe that even more wonderful watches are yet to come....


----------



## JFingers

I paid 1850 for a used (3rd hand) plank kit, gilt-date, about 6-9 months ago. I think I got a steal! It is by far my favorite watch. I'm just kicking myself for not knowing about MKII soon enough to get money down on a Key West plank kit.

Blue skies y'all,
-only jake


----------



## White Tuna

JFingers said:


> I paid 1850 for a used (3rd hand) plank kit, gilt-date, about 6-9 months ago. I think I got a steal! It is by far my favorite watch. I'm just kicking myself for not knowing about MKII soon enough to get money down on a Key West plank kit.
> 
> Blue skies y'all,
> -only jake


You still have a chance to get in on the Key West and the Key West plank kit is not nearly as *"Crazy Eddie" * as the Kingston but I am not sure there has, or ever will be, a plank kit that generous. So if you catch the general order you will be good. Good luck!


----------



## gman54

White Tuna said:


> Some people already feel betrayed because the Key West may have a gilt dial. I am not one of them.


 I ordered two Key West watches hoping to have a gilt on one of them. Will look nice with my gilt dial Kingston.


----------



## Darwin

o| Am again obsessed with the Kingston. Thank you so much, people... NOT! I should have jumped a month ago - the little flurry of selling activity seems to have died down. Will try to catch next wave... or I'll be a good boy, save my allowance, and try to get in on a Nassau date or one of Bill's future offerings.


----------



## ds99

My Kingston just sold on the sales forum within a few hours, at the exact same price I paid for it 18 months ago (even when you include the paypal/shipping fees). 

So... still a strong demand.


----------



## mlb212

ds99 said:


> My Kingston just sold on the sales forum within a few hours, at the exact same price I paid for it 18 months ago (even when you include the paypal/shipping fees).
> 
> So... still a strong demand.


There have been very few Kingsons for sale recently...


----------



## White Tuna

mlb212 said:


> There have been very few Kingston's for sale recently...


I remember there was a handful of people who sold before they received the watch or right after they received the watch because they were so turned off by the wait. I am sure some of them do not regret the sale but I have to believe at least some do. It seems to me such a petty act of defiance that nobody would know about unless you took the time to let people know.

I was thinking about this over the holiday. I received my Kingston's in May/June of 2012. I think I may have actually been wearing my Kingston for longer than I had waited for it. If not that day is coming soon. The wait is long forgotten and the watch is my almost daily companion.


----------



## TheMeasure

mlb212 said:


> There have been very few Kingsons for sale recently...


Agreed..hopefully they are finding permanent homes, I know mine has.;-)


----------



## lipjin

ds99 said:


> My Kingston just sold on the sales forum within a few hours, at the exact same price I paid for it 18 months ago (even when you include the paypal/shipping fees).
> 
> So... still a strong demand.


Well being the guy who bought that Kingston , thanks!

I sold my plank kit about 6 months back (was the 2nd owner) - that had a bond config with no date. I haven't seen many red triangle configs with a date and I missed having a Kingston - been trawling the forums for months and they are very rare these days.

From my point of view, MKII is a direct competitor to Tudor (sans marketing) since the movement is the same (arguably better finishing!). With BBs going for 2.5-2.8, I think MKII represents good value at this price point.


----------



## Chromejob

I suspect that some were sold soon after delivery simply as an investment (instantly doubling one's buy-in, or better), or the delivered watch wasn't as pleasing as expected, or other grail watches were now being pursued. Any number of reasons. It was a seller's market.

And I have to gloat that there was healthy conjecture that prices would drop steadily as time marched on, I didn't see that happening, and I'm a little pleased to see my suspicions were correct. Prices may have dropped a little, but I don't think we're seeing them in the sub-$1500 range, are we?


// Tapatalk for iOS//


----------



## mlb212

The first Kingston of the year is up...

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mk-ii-kingston-1440490.html


----------



## Chromejob

Interesting choice of asking price....


// Tapatalk on iPad - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech BT kybd //


----------



## bbuckbbuck

lipjin said:


> From my point of view, MKII is a direct competitor to Tudor (sans marketing) since the movement is the same (arguably better finishing!). With BBs going for 2.5-2.8, I think MKII represents good value at this price point.


whoa, that's a pretty bold statement. I know I'm in the MKII forum, but I'm inclined to think that assessment is a little bit overdrawn. I mean, Tudor has a legacy of their own, doing very unique designs based off their own legitimate heritage. It's not just ETA plus marketing, as you seem to suggest. I mean, at the end of the day, the Kingston is THE BEST sub homage in the world, there's no question about that. But, it's still a homage. The question is: Is the BB just a sub homage? I don't think so.

In short, MKII is definitely not in the same league as Tudor.


----------



## lipjin

bbuckbbuck said:


> whoa, that's a pretty bold statement. I know I'm in the MKII forum, but I'm inclined to think that assessment is a little bit overdrawn. I mean, Tudor has a legacy of their own, doing very unique designs based off their own legitimate heritage. It's not just ETA plus marketing, as you seem to suggest. I mean, at the end of the day, the Kingston is THE BEST sub homage in the world, there's no question about that. But, it's still a homage. The question is: Is the BB just a sub homage? I don't think so.
> 
> In short, MKII is definitely not in the same league as Tudor.


Well I had someone offer to trade me a heritage BB for my Kingston plank kit so I'm not the sole owner of that viewpoint


----------



## Thieuster

lipjin said:


> Well I had someone offer to trade me a heritage BB for my Kingston plank kit so I'm not the sole owner of that viewpoint


Certainly not! I fully agree - as I have written in the past. First time when I had a Black Bay with the red bezel on my wrist.

- First, MKII is a one man band. Bill is a master when it comes to finding the right supplier for the parts he needs. Most time consuming is waiting for suppliers to deliver according Bill's specs.
- Tudor / Rolex have the money to come up with a list of demands and with their own tooling they can achieve their high standards. Comes to think: when Bill's sales prices are as high as Tudor's, what would be the level of detail on MKIIs? 
- The initial sales price of the Kingston was 1/3th or 1/4th of the BB's. 
- When talking about parts: both have the same movement. MKII's is even better finished... Accuracy-wise, a MKII can easily compete with a COSC-certified Tudor.
- Tudor has higher costs when it comes to marketing, dealers, etc. But certainly, they will have a higher margin on their watches, making it easier to invest in new equipment.

Finally this: I really think that someone in Geneva is reading this forum closely:
- Vantage? Rolex turns up the 39mm wide Explorer
- LRRP? Rolex returns the big arrow hand on their GMT
- LRRP again: 42mm wide. Rolex comes with the wider versions of their Sub cases...
- Red and gilt Kingston? Rolex turns out the red bezel BB.
- I would not be surprised to see the return of the pepsi bezel on Rolex when the Key West arrives.

Menno


----------



## lipjin

Awaiting a Ss ceramic Pepsi or coke GMT from rolex - the WG Pepsi owners will be hopping mad


----------



## DEV.Woulf

lipjin said:


> From my point of view, MKII is a direct competitor to Tudor (sans marketing) since the movement is the same (arguably better finishing!). With BBs going for 2.5-2.8, I think MKII represents good value at this price point.


There's two ways of looking at that. It terms of quality no doubt, the Kingston would be a competitor as many people speak of what a great watch it is on the forum. In terms of prestige? No way... how could it? The design itself is a copy of a Rolex design. Tudor on the other hand can copy Rolex because they are Rolex.

I think MK II and it's "homage" watches should be looked at in their own right because trying to compete with the real thing is stupid. I wish Bill would get more confidence in himself and start producing completely original designs to compete with other companies. Since it appears that his quality is moving up, I think it's time to start producing *true* homage watches, meaning not copies of any particular design but something designed from within his mind taking inspiration from vintage styles. The Fulcrum was the start of that and hopefully that's the direction moving forward. Go for it Bill, you can do it! :-!



lipjin said:


> Awaiting a Ss ceramic Pepsi or coke GMT from rolex - the WG Pepsi owners will be hopping mad


YES! :-d


----------



## gnome666

Devarika Woulf said:


> There's two ways of looking at that. It terms of quality no doubt, the Kingston would be a competitor as many people speak of what a great watch it is on the forum. In terms of prestige? No way... how could it? The design itself is a copy of a Rolex design. Tudor on the other hand can copy Rolex because they are Rolex.
> 
> I think MK II and it's "homage" watches should be looked at in their own right because trying to compete with the real thing is stupid. I wish Bill would get more confidence in himself and start producing completely original designs to compete with other companies. Since it appears that his quality is moving up, I think it's time to start producing *true* homage watches, meaning not copies of any particular design but something designed from within his mind taking inspiration from vintage styles. The Fulcrum was the start of that and hopefully that's the direction moving forward. Go for it Bill, you can do it! :-!
> 
> YES! :-d


I agree, partially. Totally agree that new designs are welcome. +1 that the fulcrum was a welcome addition, and a good example of a "homage" in the sense that it pays tribute to the spirit of the watches designed at the time, and their functions. Although pt widely available, the same holds try for the graywater.









The only thing I disagree with, is that I think there is definitely a need/desire to continue to produce homage watches which closely echo the "classics". Just think about how many folks there are out there that love the design of the bond submariner (Kingston) or the McQueen explorer (LRRP Capstone) who will never come close to having enough money to owning an original. I know that's true for me personally. I like those watches not because they are rolex, or because they are "rare" but because of their inherent design. I'd like them if they were originally swatch, hamilton, Waltham, omega, IWC, etc designs. I for one am glad that there is a reasonable possibility that May one day own a kingston.

While there are no doubt other micro brands do similar homages, I am glad that there is a "high end" option like MKII for us conosiouers to choose from









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ds99

I think one of the main reasons for the high re-sale price of the Kingston is the face that only 300 were ever made. If 2,000 had been made you would be able to pick one up for $600 and they would be regarded much like Raven watches.


----------



## gnome666

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chromejob

While I don't disagree with any of the arguments, you guys need to read up on COSC certification requirements.

While qualitatively a Mk II is comparable to a prestige brand, the COSC certification is beyond what Mk II can (at present) command until the MSRP goes up. A whole bunch of tests and conditions. Not all COSC certified watch buyers know what that piece of paper really means, but some do, and scoff at comparisons by boutique brands. 

I agree, the Graywater and another forum LE that Bill did that escapes my memory take the Mk II into a higher bracket. Some of the LRRP combinations (remember that it was a custom order model, with an obscenely marvelous array of choices: case, bezel insert, hands, dial, HEV option IIRC) were either an extension of the "mod business" or a step towards original, custom design watches, depending upon your POV.  

ds99 is correct, the exclusivity of the Kingston contributes to its resale value. They are very much a LE, rara avis for collectors. 


// Tapatalk on iPad - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech BT kybd //


----------



## White Tuna

ds99 said:


> I think one of the main reasons for the high re-sale price of the Kingston is the face that only 300 were ever made. If 2,000 had been made you would be able to pick one up for $600 and they would be regarded much like Raven watches.


I do not think so. I have both the Raven Vintage and the Kingston is a much more classic design. I like the Raven but it is over the top in an almost cartoonish way. The styling of the 2 watches is very different.

That being said, I do not think that MKII is a competitor with Tudor. There is MUCH more consumer awareness of Tudor out there than MKII. I also think there is a large percentage of watch guys that will never own a MKII because of "homage". The two brands fill two different niches.


----------



## DEV.Woulf

gnome666 said:


> The only thing I disagree with, is that I think there is definitely a need/desire to continue to produce homage watches which closely echo the "classics". Just think about how many folks there are out there that love the design of the bond submariner (Kingston) or the McQueen explorer (LRRP Capstone) who will never come close to having enough money to owning an original. I know that's true for me personally. I like those watches not because they are rolex, or because they are "rare" but because of their inherent design. I'd like them if they were originally swatch, hamilton, Waltham, omega, IWC, etc designs. I for one am glad that there is a reasonable possibility that May one day own a kingston.
> 
> While there are no doubt other micro brands do similar homages, I am glad that there is a "high end" option like MKII for us conosiouers to choose from


I'm starting to feel different about homage watches. I sort of feel they are not paying homage but disrespecting the brand they are basing the watch on. A copy can't be compared to an original in any way. Those watches you mentioned have evolved and exist today in the modern-day SubC and Explorer II. Different, but that's the way it is. I think it's best to respect if a brand discontinues their watch and moves on with new versions. We should move on too unless you can find one used. If we like the styling so much, better to create an original watch that is similar in appearance and feel to said watch but not a direct copy. I might be alone in my thinking, though. :think:

Seeing how talented Bill is makes me desire more originals like the Graywater which is a very handsome watch and gets better every time I look at it! Can you imagine if he had taken the elements from vintage Rolex (gilt dial, white dial, colored bezel triangle, colored bezels, etc...) and made his own watch from those elements? Would have been even nicer than a direct homage. No matter, there's always the future for those ideas if he wants to.


----------



## Chromejob

White Tuna said:


> I do not think so. I have both the Raven Vintage and the Kingston is a much more classic design. I like the Raven but it is over the top in an almost cartoonish way. The styling of the 2 watches is very different.
> 
> That being said, I do not think that MKII is a competitor with Tudor. There is MUCH more consumer awareness of Tudor out there than MKII. I also think there is a large percentage of watch guys that will never own a MKII because of "homage". The two brands fill two different niches.





Devarika Woulf said:


> I'm starting to feel different about homage watches. I sort of feel they are not paying homage but disrespecting the brand they are basing the watch on. A copy can't be compared to an original in any way. Those watches you mentioned have evolved and exist today in the modern-day SubC and Explorer II. Different, but that's the way it is. I think it's best to respect if a brand discontinues their watch and moves on with new versions. We should move on too unless you can find one used. If we like the styling so much, better to create an original watch that is similar in appearance and feel to said watch but not a direct copy. I might be alone in my thinking, though. :think:
> 
> Seeing how talented Bill is makes me desire more originals like the Graywater which is a very handsome watch and gets better every time I look at it! Can you imagine if he had taken the elements from vintage Rolex (gilt dial, white dial, colored bezel triangle, colored bezels, etc...) and made his own watch from those elements? Would have been even nicer than a direct homage. No matter, there's always the future for those ideas if he wants to.


Well, here I see the usual contradiction, or paradox if you will. "Homage" != "copy" IMHO. Read Bill's Worn & Wound interview, he's quite clear about taking the elements of the original, adjusting and improving with today's capabilities, to create a new rendition of a classic. In the way that Ian McKellan's RICHARD III done in WWII era production design casts the classic in a new light. Or, Baz Lurhmann's (sp?) ROMEO + JULIET.

The Raven 6538 looks "cartoonish" because of limitations in design precision and parts. Bill's has a different quality to its design.

Does it make it on par with a Tudor? That's in the eye of the beholder. But the "market presence" of a Tudor doesn't make it "better" than a small batch boutique watchmaker any more than high quality prestige coffee roasts are any better than a local shop roasting beans to their own exacting standards. Surely, the small numbers of a boutique brand's output make those models as desirable as a mass produced model from a firm with painstaking quality standards, to some collectors.

'Round and 'round the mulberry bush we go, no one's answer is more correct than another's.

And frankly, saying that if you like the vintage Sub look you should go find an original, is preposterous. An early 60s Sub will cost you a fortune, in purchase price, and restoration and servicing. A painstakingly made high quality homage will cost less, and serve you in function and style about as well, without the issue of "are you seriously wearing a fifty year old collectable watch as your daily wear timepiece?"

// Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


----------



## lipjin

Man. Opened a can of worms with the tudor vs mkii comparison 

I love my MKIIs for what they are: well made watches that are very affordable and ordered to my custom specifications. I love Rolexes for its history and contribution to classic tool designs. And I love Patek for its high haute horologie movement finishing and overall great complications.


----------



## DEV.Woulf

Chromejob said:


> And frankly, saying that if you like the vintage Sub look you should go find an original, is preposterous. *An early 60s Sub will cost you a fortune, in purchase price, and restoration and servicing.* A painstakingly made high quality homage will cost less, and serve you in function and style about as well, without the issue of "are you seriously wearing a fifty year old collectable watch as your daily wear timepiece?"


I understood that when I made my post: They cost an arm & a leg and most all will never own one. The thing is Rolex made that decision to let those versions fall to time but the models _still exist _and are affordable. I think take those elements from the 50s/60s and create your own watch but leave Rolex to Rolex. If Rolex wants to produce fat cases with crown guards, white diamond maxi-dials, and ceramic bezels, let them. Take that vintage sprite and create your own answer to that. But when you use the Rolex design, it leads to comparisons like with the Tudor one above and MK II may not be able to compete with the real thing. That was the point I was originally trying to make.

No can of worms meant, just the direction I'd like to see the brand go moving forward. After the Key West and Project 300 are done, let's see some more Fulcrums and such. Sometimes the comparisons to the original models can overshadow Bill's work so why not become the originals?


----------



## Chromejob

Devarika Woulf said:


> ... but the models _still exist _and are affordable....


Wha-?


----------



## White Tuna

Chromejob said:


> Wha-?


Yeah, I did not understand this part. I figured I was reading it wrong.


----------



## Pentameter

Devarika Woulf said:


> I understood that when I made my post: They cost an arm & a leg and most all will never own one. The thing is Rolex made that decision to let those versions fall to time but the models _still exist _and are affordable.


No, they don't still exist&#8230; they exist in a modern evolved form, but not in the classic form. While they may share the same name, they're very different watches. Also, what is affordable to you (whatever a sub or explorer costs new) may NOT be affordable to someone else.

I also find your comment about homage watches being "disrespectful" pretty offensive, not to mention bizarre. Is it fair to make that judgement on someone else's creation without KNOWING their intent? Who are you to make that claim? I think if you asked anyone that makes a homage piece, they would say they're doing it from a standpoint of love & appreciation, fully intending it as a sign of respect to the original.


----------



## Chromejob

Some people just don't get the diffr' between a copy (fake, counterfeit) and an homage (replica, reissue). And I'm tired of hearing from them. Really.


----------



## BigHaole

Chromejob said:


> Some people just don't get the diffr' between a copy (fake, counterfeit) and an homage (replica, reissue).


Exactly! When you get right down to it, there are only so many ways to "uniquely" make a watch. Just about everything is derivative of something else. Some are open about what they are homaging (thank you, MKII), some release their own watch which is very similar (how many watches look like a Rolex Sub or a Blancpain 50 Fathoms?), and some flat out copy (fake or counterfeit). I am fine with #1 and #2 and I may have even come across a #3 in my collection, but they don't make me nearly as happy as the other two.


----------



## bbuckbbuck

I'm all for open convos on WUS, but at the same time... these damn homage-bashers, who come to an MKII forum no less (which is a forum about company that, on the whole, makes homage watches!) and perform the same tired "homage sucks blah blah blah" song and dance --- well, the mods should immediately just delete the post.

You're not adding anything new, or insightful, or even interesting. There's 10,000 threads that have already litigated the homage question to death. Put down your broken stick and stop beating that lifeless horse! We honestly can't take it anymore.

Look, I'm not even a big fan of homage watches, *but who cares!?* At least I have the common decency and courtesy to shut up about it and not broadcast an otherwise utterly banal and pointless view. Like many things in the watch world, it IS totally preference. Some like homages, and some don't. And I get that that's exactly why we all come here: to discuss taste and preference. The world of watches is like the world of art. We share judgements, and tastes, and conceptions of beauty and so forth.

_*But*_ with respect to the like-don't like homage question. Get on with it. Grow up. If you don't like homage watches, write about it your diary. But please spare us.


----------



## Chromejob

bbuckbbuck said:


> I'm all for open convos on WUS, but at the same time... these damn homage-bashers, who come to an MKII forum no less (which is a forum about company that, on the whole, makes homage watches!) and perform the same tired "homage sucks blah blah blah" song and dance --- well, the mods should immediately just delete the post.
> 
> You're not adding anything new, or insightful, or even interesting. There's 10,000 threads that have already litigated the homage question to death. Put down your broken stick and stop beating that lifeless horse! We honestly can't take it anymore.
> 
> Look, I'm not even a big fan of homage watches, *but who cares!?* At least I have the common decency and courtesy to shut up about it and not broadcast an otherwise utterly banal and pointless view. Like many things in the watch world, it IS totally preference. Some like homages, and some don't. And I get that that's exactly why we all come here: to discuss taste and preference. The world of watches is like the world of art. We share judgements, and tastes, and conceptions of beauty and so forth.
> 
> _*But*_ with respect to the like-don't like homage question. Get on with it. Grow up. If you don't like homage watches, write about it your diary. But please spare us.


I'm just quoting this so it's said twice.

// Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


----------



## DEV.Woulf

I find these posts pretty harsh for me speaking an opinion for myself. I never suggested what you guys buy or wear, only that I'd to see more originals from Bill because I like the ones I've seen from him better than the homages. You all disagree and that's fine, but it is my opinion. I never said anything bad about MK II or Bill or anyone here so I find these posts very unjustified & rude. My post wasn't negative, definitely compared to some other stuff people have said about homages. Sensitive much? :think:



Chromejob said:


> Wha-?





White Tuna said:


> Yeah, I did not understand this part. I figured I was reading it wrong.


The Submariner and Explorer II, which inspired the Kingston and Capstone, still exist, negating a need for an homage to be made. Same with the GMT-Master and Key West. That's what I meant.



Pentameter said:


> No, they don't still exist&#8230; they exist in a modern evolved form, but not in the classic form. While they may share the same name, they're very different watches. Also, what is affordable to you (whatever a sub or explorer costs new) may NOT be affordable to someone else.
> 
> I also find your comment about homage watches being "disrespectful" pretty offensive, not to mention bizarre. Is it fair to make that judgement on someone else's creation without KNOWING their intent? Who are you to make that claim? I think if you asked anyone that makes a homage piece, they would say they're doing it from a standpoint of love & appreciation, fully intending it as a sign of respect to the original.


No offense meant by this but _who are you_ to say that they're different watches? Are you Rolex? No.  Rolex still sells the Submariner and it looks like the same classic watch to me. The Explorer II and GMT-Master as well, which looks almost the same. I can't afford a Rolex either but like anyone if you save up for a few years you could. As for the disrespectful comment, first, I meant bringing back a design which a company itself chose to retire. They retired _their own_ design and it should be respected unless _they_ bring it back. Second, tell Rolex how much you love and appreciate and respect their design of a watch that _still exists_ so much that you will copy it and then not give them a dime at all of the profits you make from said copy.



Chromejob said:


> Some people just don't get the diffr' between a copy (fake, counterfeit) and an homage (replica, reissue). And I'm tired of hearing from them. Really.


Well, the owners of the original copyright should _really_ be the only ones with the right to release a replica or reissue in the first place but no, I get how most people feel about the two, I'm just not a fan of either and prefer originals. You obviously don't which is absolutely fine too. Ignore my post if it upsets you, what else can I say?



BigHaole said:


> Exactly! When you get right down to it, there are only so many ways to "uniquely" make a watch. Just about everything is derivative of something else. Some are open about what they are homaging (thank you, MKII), some release their own watch which is very similar (how many watches look like a Rolex Sub or a Blancpain 50 Fathoms?), and some flat out copy (fake or counterfeit). I am fine with #1 and #2 and I may have even come across a #3 in my collection, but they don't make me nearly as happy as the other two.


That's just a cop out. There is a big difference between an inspiration and a copy: Inspirations are imaginative and playful and create a different feeling when on wrist, while copies...are just copies of something else. Originality should always be encouraged for everything in life. Also, this is what happens when you make your watch look like a Rolex. That comparison and negative review towards the Kingston would *never* have been made if it was an original design and that was my main point.



bbuckbbuck said:


> I'm all for open convos on WUS, but at the same time... these damn homage-bashers, who come to an MKII forum no less (which is a forum about company that, on the whole, makes homage watches!) and perform the same tired "homage sucks blah blah blah" song and dance --- well, the mods should immediately just delete the post. You're not adding anything new, or insightful, or even interesting. There's 10,000 threads that have already litigated the homage question to death. Put down your broken stick and stop beating that lifeless horse! We honestly can't take it anymore. Look, I'm not even a big fan of homage watches, but who cares!? At least I have the common decency and courtesy to shut up about it and not broadcast an otherwise utterly banal and pointless view. Like many things in the watch world, it IS totally preference. Some like homages, and some don't. And I get that that's exactly why we all come here: to discuss taste and preference. The world of watches is like the world of art. We share judgements, and tastes, and conceptions of beauty and so forth. But with respect to the like-don't like homage question. Get on with it. Grow up. If you don't like homage watches, write about it your diary. But please spare us.


:-d Well, I am not like you and I speak whatever my mind feels, respectfully and kindly, of course. I encourage more great MK II originals which there have been very little of and less of homages which are truly no longer needed going forward. Why should my post be deleted, because you disagree with it?! I stated a preference and posted it very respectfully towards Bill and his company, and anyone else who felt the same. If I didn't speak, how could he hear my opinion when it comes to the next project decision? Maybe he'll choose to do an original watch again next time if enough people showed interest? It's my right to encourage a style direction, who the heck are you to deny this or my words? Buy whatever you prefer, I never said otherwise.

I've said how I feel. I don't want to turn this into an ongoing argument because I believe everyone has the right to wear what they like but I must defend myself. Thanks for reading. o|


----------



## White Tuna

Devarika Woulf, I agree with most of what you said but I did not understand that a big crown was still available.


----------



## mlb212

Devarika Woulf said:


> The Submariner and Explorer II, which inspired the Kingston and Capstone, still exist, negating a need for an homage to be made. Same with the GMT-Master and Key West.


This is not correct.



Devarika Woulf said:


> No offense meant by this but _who are you_ to say that they're different watches?


I am mlb212.



Devarika Woulf said:


> Rolex still sells the Submariner and it looks like the same classic watch to me. The Explorer II and GMT-Master as well, which looks almost the same.


You need to see an ophthalmologist. Gluacoma is a very serious disease but can be stopped saving your vision if caught early.



Devarika Woulf said:


> Well, the owners of the original copyright should _really_ be the only ones with the right to release a replica or reissue in the first place


Somebody needs to explain to me how it's fine to cover/sample another persons songs, tell somebody else's jokes, build buildings based on Roman or Greek designs (every college campus in America or most old government buildings in Washington) but it's wrong to build a watch inspired by another watch from the 1950s? Better yet, explain how a squale 20atm, breitling super ocean, fifty-fathoms, every deep blue watch, every Tudor watch, etc. aren't copies of another watch.



Devarika Woulf said:


> what else can I say?


Not much.



Devarika Woulf said:


> There is a big difference between an inspiration and a copy: Inspirations are imaginative and playful and create a different feeling when on wrist, while copies...are just copies of something else.


Nope, a very fine line. I would even argue the only difference is a matter of opinion.



Devarika Woulf said:


> Originality should always be encouraged for everything in life.


Very much disagree, and I believe upon reexamination of your statement you would disagree as well. For example, my accountant I do not want to be original. Also my lawyer, please do not be original. And most importantly, my financial advisor and broker; for the love of God, do not be original.

Thanks for reading.


----------



## TheDude

We should probably point out that MkII's mission as a company is to take military and/or tool watches and update/improve them (creating a "MkII" if you will). If you object to the watches, then certainly you must object to the mission and also the company. 

The regulars are here because we believe in that mission, the company, and its products. I can't fathom why someone who doesn't share that would want to be here. 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chromejob

TheDude said:


> We should probably point out that MkII's mission as a company is to take military and/or tool watches and update/improve them (creating a "MkII" if you will). If you object to the watches, then certainly you must object to the mission and also the company.
> 
> The regulars are here because we believe in that mission, the company, and its products. I can't fathom why someone who doesn't share that would want to be here.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


In a word ... troll. That's why.

// Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


----------



## White Tuna

I personally do not think Devarika Woulf is trolling. I am not criticizing anyone, just adding my opinion.


----------



## DEV.Woulf

White Tuna said:


> Devarika Woulf, I agree with most of what you said but I did not understand that a big crown was still available.


A big crown isn't available anymore sadly but the Submariner itself *is* still around, y'know? I'm just growing out of the copycopycopy thing. As I said before I'd like to see more original takes on the homage like the Fulcrum was going forward. Use what you want from this and that (such as a big crown) and make something new and unique. It's just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me because that's not what MK II usually does but that's fine.



mlb212 said:


> This is not correct. I am mlb212. You need to see an ophthalmologist. Gluacoma is a very serious disease but can be stopped saving your vision if caught early. Somebody needs to explain to me how it's fine to cover/sample another persons songs, tell somebody else's jokes, build buildings based on Roman or Greek designs (every college campus in America or most old government buildings in Washington) but it's wrong to build a watch inspired by another watch from the 1950s? Better yet, explain how a squale 20atm, breitling super ocean, fifty-fathoms, every deep blue watch, every Tudor watch, etc. aren't copies of another watch. Not much. Nope, a very fine line. I would even argue the only difference is a matter of opinion. Very much disagree, and I believe upon reexamination of your statement you would disagree as well. For example, my accountant I do not want to be original. Also my lawyer, please do not be original. And most importantly, my financial advisor and broker; for the love of God, do not be original.


It is correct, the models still exist. A little fatter and a bit different looking, not unlike most people at 60 years old, but that's them. / Is your middle name Rolex? :-d / They look like the evolved equivalents. / Inspired by an old watch is great but copying everything? Those watches don't look exactly like a copy of any particular watch to my "glaucomaed eyes." / ...OK, / Let me rephrase that: Everything in _art_.



TheDude said:


> We should probably point out that MkII's mission as a company is to take military and/or tool watches and update/improve them (creating a "MkII" if you will). If you object to the watches, then certainly you must object to the mission and also the company. The regulars are here because we believe in that mission, the company, and its products. I can't fathom why someone who doesn't share that would want to be here.


I like the mission and the company but prefer that improvement in ways the Fulcrum did. The Fulcrum reminded you of vintage Rolexes but didn't look exactly like any particular one and I liked and respected that a lot. That was unique for Bill. I wish to see more of that vision of the homage but as I'm learning I am the only one that feels that way.



Chromejob said:


> In a word ... troll. That's why.


Not that simple. I'm a potential customer like anyone else who gave an opinion on what models I prefer and like to see more of. I now realize that I am the only one that wishes to see MK II do more originals and less the straight up homage type after the Key West, Project 300, and Stingray II are done. Hopefully Bill can get some extra help so he will be able to do both the homage and the inspiration watches at the same time to appeal to both types of fans. With that said I apologies to anyone who was offended by my thoughts and unless there is any more friendly Rolex debate, I want to drop this. Please enjoy your watches.


----------



## Chromejob

Well, to your point ... *Graywater*. We all love the variation on classic themes.

// Tapatalk on iPad Mini - Misspelling courtesy of Logitech folio kybd //


----------



## Dragoon

Devarika Woulf said:


> A big crown isn't available anymore sadly but the Submariner itself *is* still around, y'know? I'm just growing out of the copycopycopy thing. As I said before I'd like to see more original takes on the homage like the Fulcrum was going forward. Use what you want from this and that (such as a big crown) and make something new and unique. It's just my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree with me because that's not what MK II usually does but that's fine. [quote/]
> 
> The fact that watch models change and progress, or in some cases digress, can be very influential in the desirability of certain versions of the same "model" watch. This can happen in the same model year with differing versions or as progressions in a year to year pattern. So, I do not follow your logic in statements that the current Sub should satisfy any desires for the last 55 years of Rolex sub models. Not to mention the inability or desire of most folks to purchase the originals which many times cost in the 10's of thousands $.
> 
> My thoughts on the matter include a very narrow definition of what constitutes a 1958 Big Crown Submariner 6538. And the desirability of that very important watch to both collectors and fans of that particular Rolex model in particular. A 2015 Rolex Submariner will never scratch that particular itch. So, while I understand your very special definition of what you enjoy or would like to see from MKII; I think your vision of where you would like MKII to go is contrary to what MKII is striving to achieve.
> 
> And, yes, there will be Fulcrums and Graywaters and watches of similar ilk in the future that may not have exact versions in the past in the MKII repetoire. But, to suggest that is where MKII should focus just is silly and completely contrary to the mission statement the Bill has presented and bases his MKII watch company upon.
> 
> No offense taken in your suggestions but it is just a pipe dream on your part and I understand this is a watch forum and of course you are entitled to your statement. I do not think you can seriously consider your suggestions have any real merit in directing the path of MKII. And you are most welcome to your opinions. No harm, no foul.


----------



## Pentameter

Devarika Woulf said:


> No offense meant by this but _who are you_ to say that they're different watches? Are you Rolex? No.  Rolex still sells the Submariner and it looks like the same classic watch to me. The Explorer II and GMT-Master as well, which looks almost the same. I can't afford a Rolex either but like anyone if you save up for a few years you could. As for the disrespectful comment, first, I meant bringing back a design which a company itself chose to retire. They retired _their own_ design and it should be respected unless _they_ bring it back. Second, tell Rolex how much you love and appreciate and respect their design of a watch that _still exists_ so much that you will copy it and then not give them a dime at all of the profits you make from said copy.
> 
> Well, the owners of the original copyright should _really_ be the only ones with the right to release a replica or reissue in the first place but no, I get how most people feel about the two, I'm just not a fan of either and prefer originals. You obviously don't which is absolutely fine too. Ignore my post if it upsets you, what else can I say?


Look, a name alone is NOT all that makes something what it is. Is a sting-ray Corvette from the 60's or whatever THE SAME CAR as a modern Corvette? I would say the answer is either SORT OF or NOT REALLY - it's the same model name, but is it made the same way? Does it look the same? Is the stuff inside it the same?? NO - it is evolved, it's different. It shares some DNA & tradition from the original, but it's NOT the same car! Do you really think Rolex would claim that their modern Sub's are the "same watch" as the 6538 or whatever we're talking about from ~50 years ago? I really don't think they would, and I'm not sure how you keep claiming that when there are clear & obvious differences. Why is there a need for all these reference numbers if they're 'the same' ?

Also - Rolex's patents on the sub design have expired, so no-one owes them anything. Saying "They retired _their own_ design and it should be respected unless _they_ bring it back" is something you're free to believe in, but I just find that ludicrous. There is obviously a market out there for these retro designs, and Rolex is choosing not to fill it, so _who are you_ to tell others that they can't or shouldn't? They're fully within their rights, so please, come down off your high horse. This is all just STUFF, things that make people happy. We're not talking life & death or serious violations of law here&#8230; Would you really want to deny someone else's happiness out of some misguided sense of respect to Rolex? I seriously doubt they care as much as you seem to about this.


----------



## ezekiel33

Let's just Say MKII is respectfully glorifying the awesome vintage watches we all like. It's like having a piece of something good rather than nothing at all. 

There is no reason to get upset over a guy like Bill bringing some Joy our way. 

I once read...... 

Put away from you a deceitful mouth, And put perverse lips far from you. Let your eyes look straight ahead, And your eyelids look right before you.


----------



## Maxy

Latest one is for sale on $2450. Personally, I would buy Tudor Black Bay Heritage with Red bezel and gilted dial for that price but if you really want it then this is the current choice.


----------



## mlb212

Maxy said:


> Latest one is for sale on $2450. Personally, I would buy Tudor Black Bay Heritage with Red bezel and gilted dial for that price but if you really want it then this is the current choice.


I belive there are two Kinstons for sale, both Bond non-date and both for $2450; one in Sweden and one in California.


----------



## Darwin

There are a couple of Kingstons for sale at those prices, too!



mlb212 said:


> I belive there are two Kinstons for sale, both Bond non-date and both for $2450; one in Sweden and one in California.


----------



## Chromejob

mlb212 said:


> I belive there are two Kinstons for sale, both Bond non-date and both for $2450; one in Sweden and one in California.





Darwin said:


> There are a couple of Kingstons for sale at those prices, too!


Um.... Yep. Just waking up this morning, are we?


----------



## tmoris

GO Kingstons for 2.4k? What are the plank prices nowadays?


----------



## mlb212

tmoris said:


> GO Kingstons for 2.4k? What are the plank prices nowadays?


We havnt seen a plank for sale in awhile. But considering these two Kingstons sell for $2400, and planks themselves sell for $600, the maths work out to $3k. One could draw the ire of the MKII community and go the frankenkingston route (GO $2400 and franken $1700) for $4100.


----------



## tmoris

Wonder what these will sell for, but GO at these levels is certainly not what i have anticipated when i sold mine  for the sake of general amusement, i bought the 007 plank in 2013 for 2.2k


----------



## mlb212

tmoris said:


> Wonder what these will sell for, but GO at these levels is certainly not what i have anticipated when i sold mine  for the sake of general amusement, i bought the 007 plank in 2013 for 2.2k


You did well at $3.5k for the 007.


----------



## Chromejob

Remember these are asking prices, not sell prices. Someone here on the forum was listing gently used Kingstons for about this on eBay a couple of years ago, and the auctions would regularly expire without a sale, and get relisted. I watched for a while out of curiosity. The seller claimed that they were as much a calling card for his other wares as a legit auction (my choice of words, but close). 

IMHO a plank kit might command more due to all the parts (and you can have a watchsmith change out your dial & hands, maybe even bezel, every year for some variety), but essentially you're still buying a single watch.


----------



## tmoris

mlb212 said:


> You did well at $3.5k for the 007.


Lol, i wish. Who told you that sum?


----------



## mlb212

tmoris said:


> Lol, i wish. Who told you that sum?


I could be mistaken


----------



## White Tuna

mlb212 said:


> I could be mistaken


Ride it out dude! He's got nothing! :-d

But seriously, I remember when 007 sold and I thought it was over priced but seeing what is going on now I think that was a good price.

Are these two Kingston's used? I am too lazy to look for the listings. I love my Kingston and am looking for a comfortable leather of softish cloth Nato.


----------



## DVNE

Maxy said:


> Latest one is for sale on $2450. Personally, I would buy Tudor Black Bay Heritage with Red bezel and gilted dial for that price but if you really want it then this is the current choice.


Nothing special about a readily available Tudor though (at least in my opinion). The dial isn't spectacular. Maybe I expected more from Tudor when I handled it at the AD.

I'd pick the Kingston over the Black Bay every time.


----------



## Maxy

DVNE said:


> Nothing special about a readily available Tudor though (at least in my opinion). The dial isn't spectacular. Maybe I expected more from Tudor when I handled it at the AD.
> 
> I'd pick the Kingston over the Black Bay every time.


Good for you and I'm not at all suprised to hear that on a MKII sub-forum.


----------



## MHe225

tmoris said:


> Wonder what these will sell for, but GO at these levels is certainly not what i have anticipated ......


Same here; tells you what I know. Around the time GO-delivery started, I got offered a Plank-kit for $1,250 (watch was still unworn). I thought that was a rip-off and declined. Through a twist of fate, I still ended up with a full Plank-kit:









I will say, it was all "stressful" and I promised myself "never again". I just sign up at the earliest opportunity when (Plank) ordering opens for new projects. The wait is indeed long, but stress levels are low ;-)

PS - too many words in this thread and not enough pics, so decided to remind y'all how a Plank kit looks.


----------



## powerband

DVNE said:


> Nothing special about a readily available Tudor though (at least in my opinion). The dial isn't spectacular. Maybe I expected more from Tudor when I handled it at the AD.
> 
> I'd pick the Kingston over the Black Bay every time.


I've owned and loved older Tudors, and not too long ago I owned the Tudor BB with the red bezel; the gold print on the dial is abysmal and the case is a clumsy block with little aesthetic balance. I'd take the Kingston again with its sparkle gold and total (Rolex) balance for the same price, any day.

Sent from my slingshot using Tapatalk


----------



## powerband

Maxy said:


> Good for you and I'm not at all suprised to hear that on a MKII sub-forum.


An opinion about the design of the Tudor Black Bay in an MKII forum (or any forum) doesn't lower the value of the statement.

Sent from my slingshot using Tapatalk


----------



## Aceldama

Anyone else watching this on eBay?: MKII Kingston Bill Yao&apos;s Tribute to &apos;Bond&apos; Submariner 6204 6538 | eBay

NOT mine. Interested in it, but have seen two bids get retracted in the last 24 hours.

Ace


----------



## Maxy

powerband said:


> An opinion about the design of the Tudor Black Bay in an MKII forum (or any forum) doesn't lower the value of the statement.
> 
> Sent from my slingshot using Tapatalk


ACTUALLY, it does. Any comparision of the brands tend to favor the one where the question was asked. (example: Omega vs Rolex, Grand Seiko vs Rolex, MKII vs Tudor, etc..) You get different responses based on where you ask the question.

Ask the same question in Rolex & Tudor forum and lets see if even 50% pick Kingston over Black Bay. That proves my point.

Btw, here's some old and well done review. 
http://www.watchesbysjx.com/2012/09/face-off-tudor-black-bay-vs-mk-ii.html


----------



## White Tuna

Maxy I agree it does matter where the question is asked. I have not handled one personally but I was lukewarm on the Black Bay at first. Then someone pointed out that the round indices with the snowflake hands really was not the best choice. It has since grown on me. But I am MUCH more interested in the Pelagos. I think that is the shiznet.


----------



## mlb212

Aceldama said:


> Anyone else watching this on eBay?: MKII Kingston Bill Yao&apos;s Tribute to &apos;Bond&apos; Submariner 6204 6538 | eBay
> 
> NOT mine. Interested in it, but have seen two bids get retracted in the last 24 hours.
> 
> Ace


Wow, that's a steal if it goes for anything close to 1k quid.


----------



## powerband

Maxy said:


> ACTUALLY, it does. Any comparision of the brands tend to favor the one where the question was asked. (example: Omega vs Rolex, Grand Seiko vs Rolex, MKII vs Tudor, etc..) You get different responses based on where you ask the question.
> 
> Ask the same question in Rolex & Tudor forum and lets see if even 50% pick Kingston over Black Bay. That proves my point.
> 
> Btw, here's some old and well done review.
> http://www.watchesbysjx.com/2012/09/face-off-tudor-black-bay-vs-mk-ii.html


I get what you're saying -- you'll get a frequency of opinion favoring the watch that represents the forum. My point is the validity of an opinion on a watch shouldn't be dismissed. Cheers.

Sent from my slingshot using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxy

White Tuna said:


> Maxy I agree it does matter where the question is asked. I have not handled one personally but I was lukewarm on the Black Bay at first. Then someone pointed out that the round indices with the snowflake hands really was not the best choice. It has since grown on me. But I am MUCH more interested in the Pelagos. I think that is the shiznet.


I totally get Kingston is great watch and bargain for its price but even above review picks Black Bay over Kingston with 3 times the price. Now, picking Kingston over Black Bay with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Kingston prices is going overboard.

Btw some pics of Black Bay vs Kingston. If people don't see the finish on Black Bay better, I have nothing more to add.


----------



## mlb212

Maxy said:


> I totally get Kingston is great watch and bargain for its price but even above review picks Black Bay over Kingston with 3 times the price. Now, picking Kingston over Black Bay with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Kingston prices is going overboard.
> 
> Btw some pics of Black Bay vs Kingston. If people don't see the finish on Black Bay better, I have nothing more to add.


I totally get Picasso is great painter and bargain for its price but even above review picks Matisse over Picasso with 3 times the price. Now, picking Picasso over Matisse with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Picasso prices is going overboard.

Btw some pics of Matisse vs Picasso. If people don't see the finish on Matisse better, I have nothing more to add.


----------



## cpotters

Maxy said:


> I totally get Kingston is great watch and bargain for its price but even above review picks Black Bay over Kingston with 3 times the price. Now, picking Kingston over Black Bay with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Kingston prices is going overboard.
> 
> Btw some pics of Black Bay vs Kingston. If people don't see the finish on Black Bay better, I have nothing more to add.


Maxy,

I totally get what you're saying, and - more often than not - would agree with you. As a comparison for two modern watch designs, the BB has better fit and finish. If it didn't, at least 20 people at Rolex would have been fired on the day of it's release. But it's in the esthetics of the watch itself that the value is driven for some folks, myself included.

My personal preference is for a brand new-in the box-new old stock Rolex Big Crown Submariner. I simply like that watch's design and fit on my wrist. Now, price not withstanding, Rolex simply does not make that design any more...if they did, I'd buy it and be done with it. However, if that is my ideal design for a tool watch, I'd prefer to come as close as I can to the original and - for all practical purposes - the Kingston fits the bill much better than the Black Bay.

What I'd recommend is to hold a period-correct James Bond Sub along side the Kingston and the Black Bay at the same time, and then - when realizing that the minty Sub is around $50,000, the Kingston...which has always seemed to be the closer match to that watch....seems like a bargain. That doesn't take away from the BB, it just explains why I favor the Kingston (even if the prices were identical).


----------



## Dragoon

I would anticipate that the MKII forum would most certainly favor a Kingston over a Tudor for many if not most participants as the Poster, Maxy, has stated. I also think it depends on many other factors. Some WIS love any thing to do with Rolex and Tudor over any other brand. This is not at all uncommon and as a watch philosophy for collections I cannot find fault with their logic. A very safe and conservative approach to creating a very wonderful collection that will also hold value over time, if not evaluate to boot. And, Rolex and Tudor pieces have the brand recognition and quality of manufacture to certainly back up any discussion about those two topics.

Individual desirability of a comparison between a Black Bay and a Kingston is so subjective that there is no right or wrong answer. Both beautiful Pieces. I would have a very difficult time deciding between the two. Probably have to get both if it was possible as I really like the Black Bay also. 

And, of course, you ask about a Kingston vs. fill in the blank watch, in the MKII forum and you can expect some favoritism for the underdog and beautifully gorgeous Kingston. 

I agree with Tuna in that I would chosse a Pelagos over a Black Bay if I was going with the Tudor.


----------



## BigHaole

cpotters said:


> What I'd recommend is to hold a period-correct James Bond Sub along side the Kingston and the Black Bay at the same time, and then - when realizing that the minty Sub is around $50,000, the Kingston...which has always seemed to be the closer match to that watch....seems like a bargain. That doesn't take away from the BB, it just explains why I favor the Kingston (even if the prices were identical).


Completely fair. If you're coming from the position of wanting a James Bond Sub, the Kingston is the best way to get there, without breaking the bank. Personally, I came to this discussion from the point of view of wanting a gilt dialed/gold hand dive watch with a retro vibe. I was not looking for (or opposed to) a James Bond Sub. When I got the chance to wear a red Black Bay, in person, it was all over. A absolutely love the watch. Fit, feel, style, heritage, modern/retro. It ticks all the boxes for me. Now, I've never worn a Kingston to compare, so I won't pretend to answer the "which is better" question. But I can say that, for me, the Black Bay is an awesome piece and one I'm not likely to flip.


----------



## Maxy

^^ Both good posts from *Cpotters *and *Dragoon*.

I think people are missing or overlooking the point I made. Kingston is fantastic watch but its the relative part about pricing which is the issue discussed in this thread. Tomorrow if someone wants to sell Kingston for $5K, I would suggest to get some vintage Rolex even though it might not be Big Crown but its at least 1 step closer. Similary, if Kingston is treading over Tudor's pricing, I would mention the same. Lot of watches are great but doesn't mean they are worthy at whatever prices they keep getting asked for. I wouldn't fathom buying Kingston over $5k after couple of years. At some point, the pricing has to stop regarding its value.

Another reason I find funny is that lot of folks scoff at the name of Rolex/Tudor and yet come out with daggers when something is mentioned about MKII which is actually a homage to them. You are dismissing the original and forgetting the reason Kingston is out there. Without Rolex/Tudor watches, there is no Kingston. So, my point is pretty simple, if the price of an homage keeps reaching closer the original, you buy the original. Simple as that!!


----------



## Pentameter

I love the Black Bay, it's absolutely beautiful… but I think I prefer the Kingston overall. It's not a tool if it doesn't have drilled-lugs.


----------



## Darwin

One issue is that as I have watched Kingston prices go up, I have also seen used prices for Rolex/Tudor dive watches going up. There's no Tudor that I am aware of that consistently sells today for less than $2800 USD used, which would put a Tudor at ~$300 to $1000 more than the last few Kingstons I've seen for sale. For myself, if I could swing it I'd have both. If I have to choose it's the Kingston because the design appeals to me more... for now!


----------



## powerband

Maxy said:


> I totally get Kingston is great watch and bargain for its price but even above review picks Black Bay over Kingston with 3 times the price. Now, picking Kingston over Black Bay with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Kingston prices is going overboard.
> 
> Btw some pics of Black Bay vs Kingston. If people don't see the finish on Black Bay better, I have nothing more to add.


I don't disagree with what you've been saying. As an owner of both the Kingston and the Tudor Black Bay, I've examined them closely and found that the Tudor's fit and finish are better, but only _marginally_ better -- and in order to see this minimal difference, you'd have to inspect both watches with expanded view through a macro-lens or a loupe. What is arguably apparent, however, is the gilt quality of the Kingston is observable at a distance to be exponentially better, and the aesthetic balance (even if borrowed from Rolex) being more favorable in weight and feel in the hand and on the wrist. Both are great watches, but the overall appearance at real-world ranges, the _readily and immediately_ visible and palpable quality, is the reason I personally would chose the Kingston over the Tudor BB.


----------



## powerband

Maxy said:


> Another reason I find funny is that lot of folks scoff at the name of Rolex/Tudor and yet come out with daggers when something is mentioned about MKII which is actually a homage to them. You are dismissing the original and forgetting the reason Kingston is out there.


I haven't seen anyone dismissing the brands Rolex or Tudor. A few of us critiqued the model Black Bay as a direct comparison to the Kingston and stated our preferences for one model over another. No watch brand has been assassinated. Besides, I have owned and still proudly own Rolex and Tudor watches and I'm wearing a Rolex as I'm typing this. We don't need to turn this into an "Us-against-them" or "Brand-against-brand" thread. We're talking specific watch models, regardless of who makes them.



Maxy said:


> So, my point is pretty simple, if the price of an homage keeps reaching closer the original, you buy the original. Simple as that!!


This I agree. But, it doesn't make a good argument against those of us who prefer the Kingston over the Black Bay at $2,300. I'm certain the Kingston and the Black Bay have no market at $5,000 or higher, to even make the argument that "buying the original is preferred."


----------



## mrklabb

Maxy said:


> I totally get Kingston is great watch and bargain for its price but even above review picks Black Bay over Kingston with 3 times the price. Now, picking Kingston over Black Bay with similar price is no way sane to me. My point is fair to this thread saying that Kingston prices is going overboard.
> 
> Btw some pics of Black Bay vs Kingston. If people don't see the finish on Black Bay better, I have nothing more to add.


My issue with the black bay and pelagos are the thickness. They are too thick for my taste.


----------



## kkwpk

Calm down guys. I own both Kingston and red BB. Tudor is much better made watch. You don't even need microscope to see the diffrences in quality of the case building. Only in it  (and bracelet) But Kingston has its own persoanlity which makes it unique. And the most important thing is that I wil never sell them.


----------



## Chromejob

mlb212 said:


> Wow, that's a steal if it goes for anything close to 1k quid.


Sounds like it was a plank kit (#100 < x < #130)? ... but no mention of the plank kit parts included? Uh-hum....

// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## mlb212

Maxy said:


> ^^ Both good posts from *Cpotters *and *Dragoon*.
> 
> I think people are missing or overlooking the point I made. Kingston is fantastic watch but its the relative part about pricing which is the issue discussed in this thread. Tomorrow if someone wants to sell Kingston for $5K, I would suggest to get some vintage Rolex even though it might not be Big Crown but its at least 1 step closer. Similary, if Kingston is treading over Tudor's pricing, I would mention the same. Lot of watches are great but doesn't mean they are worthy at whatever prices they keep getting asked for. I wouldn't fathom buying Kingston over $5k after couple of years. At some point, the pricing has to stop regarding its value.
> 
> Another reason I find funny is that lot of folks scoff at the name of Rolex/Tudor and yet come out with daggers when something is mentioned about MKII which is actually a homage to them. You are dismissing the original and forgetting the reason Kingston is out there. Without Rolex/Tudor watches, there is no Kingston. So, my point is pretty simple, if the price of an homage keeps reaching closer the original, you buy the original. Simple as that!!


Any judgement of value/quality/beauty is an aesthetic. Markets determine worth in terms of money. Markets are influenced by a myriad of factors, supply and demand are two. The market for a 6538 or 6204 is relatively thin compared to the thick market for a Kingston.

FYI, the Matisse is clearly better than the Picasso.


----------



## White Tuna

Chromejob said:


> Sounds like it was a plank kit (#100 < x < #130)? ... but no mention of the plank kit parts included? Uh-hum....
> 
> // Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


Plank owners had an opportunity to choose their number so we cannot tell if a watch is plank by SN.


----------



## Chromejob

I thought there was a range that serial numbers could be within for Plankers. I know my GOs were 240something and 270something. 

BTW ... Monet FTMFW. 


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## Mrwozza70

Chromejob said:


> Sounds like it was a plank kit (#100 < x < #130)? ... but no mention of the plank kit parts included? Uh-hum....
> 
> // Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


I've asked a few questions about the watch... the SN... the plank parts... and more. Will update if/when i get a reply. Which lume do you think this has?


----------



## Chromejob

Clearly BGW9. IMHO..


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## White Tuna

If someone changed the E in the title to a K I would feel obligated to post in this thread at least once a day.


----------



## Chromejob

White Tuna said:


> If someone changed the E in the title to a K I would feel obligated to post in this thread at least once a day.


Why?


----------



## luschu99

Aceldama said:


> Anyone else watching this on eBay?: MKII Kingston Bill Yao&apos;s Tribute to &apos;Bond&apos; Submariner 6204 6538 | eBay
> 
> NOT mine. Interested in it, but have seen two bids get retracted in the last 24 hours.
> 
> Ace


Hi, what is the difference between this Ebay watch and the Kingston on sale here?
https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mkii-kingston-1792514.html

Cheers


----------



## Darwin

The "e" is in "prices"...



Chromejob said:


> Why?


----------



## Darwin

The seller answered and the answer is on the ebay posting - NOT a plank kit watch, or at least that is how I interpret #3 below...:



> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for enquiry, no worries at all please ask away.
> 
> 1) Confirm, original owner and watch was unmodified. I have the receipts and plank update emails.
> 2) Confirm, original movement, caseback has never been opened.
> 3) Confirm, original Kingston and not assembled from parts - I never bought the extra parts kit (regrettably) and have never bought any Bill Yao parts at all (again regrettably)..
> 
> Good luck!


At the moment, it is reasonably priced compared to the other Kingstons on offer here...



Mrwozza70 said:


> I've asked a few questions about the watch... the SN... the plank parts... and more. Will update if/when i get a reply. Which lume do you think this has?


----------



## luschu99

Darwin said:


> The seller answered and the answer is on the ebay posting - NOT a plank kit watch, or at least that is how I interpret #3 below...:
> 
> At the moment, it is reasonably priced compared to the other Kingstons on offer here...


Ok so the Ebay Watch looks good, not a fake and not modified. Interesting... Maybe I will give it a try


----------



## Mrwozza70

Some damage on the lug... I have a better photo from the seller if you are interested.


----------



## Aceldama

At this point? About $1000...



luschu99 said:


> Hi, what is the difference between this Ebay watch and the Kingston on sale here?
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mkii-kingston-1792514.html
> 
> Cheers


----------



## Chromejob

Darwin said:


> The "e" is in "prices"...


Yeah, no kidding, Sherlock. There is only one 'e' in the title "Kingston Prices." I still don't know what anyone could mean by Kingston Pric*s.


----------



## Darwin

Yeah, well... good point. I don't know either?



Chromejob said:


> Yeah, no kidding, Sherlock. There is only one 'e' in the title "Kingston Prices." I still don't know what anyone could mean by Kingston Pric*s.


----------



## mlb212

Darwin said:


> Yeah, well... good point. I don't know either?


Some sort of Jamaican football or cricket thing I suppose...


----------



## luschu99

Mrwozza70 said:


> Some damage on the lug... I have a better photo from the seller if you are interested.


Yes, can you please post the pic? Thanks


----------



## cybercat

'
I don't think it's anything that couldn't be fixed, looking at the (enhanced) auction pic.









It sold for £1,171 GBP in the end, so about US$1,750.


----------



## Mrwozza70

Did anybody here snag it? I was patiently waiting for the 11pm auction end with a glass or two of wine... fell asleep and missed it


----------



## MHe225

Chromejob said:


> I thought there was a range that serial numbers could be within for Plankers. I know my GOs were 240something and 270something.


It's been my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Mr. Yao had reserved #1 - #100 for Plank watches, but then some (prospective) owners requested different numbers. 
That's how some GO's ended up with low serial numbers and some Planks with really high s.n. like, oh, let's say 299 ;-)


----------



## Pentameter

Did all plank orders come w/ the parts kit? I thought they had the option to buy it (at a pretty generous price) but wasn't included in the base price.


----------



## White Tuna

MHe225 said:


> It's been my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Mr. Yao had reserved #1 - #100 for Plank watches, but then some (prospective) owners requested different numbers.
> That's how some GO's ended up with low serial numbers and some Planks with really high s.n. like, oh, let's say 299 ;-)


I do not think that a number set was ever reserved for Plank, GO or second GO.



Pentameter said:


> Did all plank orders come w/ the parts kit? I thought they had the option to buy it (at a pretty generous price) but wasn't included in the base price.


Plank came with the parts kit. The first GO had the option to purchase for additional price.


----------



## tomr

My recollection is that the parts kit was included with the first 100, while the second 100 had the option to purchase the kit for $200.00. There was no option for the kit in the GO.


----------



## Aceldama

I put in my best snipe attempt for the eBay sale, but got out bid. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dragonutity

Tudor> MKII?


----------



## mlb212

Dragonutity said:


> Tudor> MKII?


Not for reasonable people who value craftsmanship and style.


----------



## powerband

Dragonutity said:


> Tudor> MKII?


As a brand? Yes. More financial support. More R&D. More reach. Longer history. Association to a company of exponential valuation.

As model-to-model comparison? Depends on which models and what you value.

Your question is vague.


----------



## Pentameter

Dragonutity said:


> Tudor> MKII?


Apples to Oranges. Tudor is a big company, with the resources to execute things that very few companies can, let alone a one-man shop in Pennsylvania. Conversely, I kinda like the idea of a small shop, able to maintain the type of INSANE quality control that only a small "dictatorship" could. How many hands touch the average Tudor that comes off the factory line? I mean it's two very different approaches, IMHO.


----------



## andygray8

007 might well be up for sale soon. I will watch this thread with interest.


----------



## tmoris

andygray8 said:


> 007 might well be up for sale soon. I will watch this thread with interest.


I thought you might have gotten it from thogi. Were you too late?


----------



## Dragoon

Just remember.... you are not allowed to sell for more the $750 which is the price the original Planks sold for when they were released. (chuckle, chuckle)



andygray8 said:


> 007 might well be up for sale soon. I will watch this thread with interest.


----------



## andygray8

Tudor smashes MKII out of the park on fit and finish, but they have the rolex group to fall back on. I have both colour BB's and neither my Kingston nor Nassau can hold a candle to them for quality.


----------



## mrklabb

I'll just leave this here... https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=1798538 looks like the QC and engineering is lacking on the bb


----------



## JFingers

andygray8 said:


> Tudor smashes MKII out of the park on fit and finish, but they have the rolex group to fall back on. I have both colour BB's and neither my Kingston nor Nassau can hold a candle to them for quality.


Oh I'd love to have the Blue Bay along with my Kingston... Any chance you can post a photo of the two together?


----------



## andygray8

i have another watch for diving with, my BB's will probably only ever go near a swimming pool and that is unlikely.


----------



## andygray8

JFingers said:


> Oh I'd love to have the Blue Bay along with my Kingston... Any chance you can post a photo of the two together?


I'm afraid my Kingston is about to be sold. So no chance of a pic i'm afraid. The either BB is about 2 steps in class at least if i'm honest. And i'm keeping my Nassau.


----------



## mlb212

andygray8 said:


> I'm afraid my Kingston is about to be sold. So no chance of a pic i'm afraid. The either BB is about 2 steps in class at least if i'm honest. And i'm keeping my Nassau.


Sarcasm...Yeah, you are right. Nobody in the their right mind would pay more than $1500 for any Kingston, maybe $1600 for special Kingstons like the 007 or 001 plank kits. End of sarcasm.


----------



## Chromejob

I get PMs periodically asking to be contacted if and when I sell mine, so demand is still alive and well. So long as that's the case, I don't see prices dropping considerably. 

I think that Tudor BB thread is an inflated kerfuffle. A wee bit of evidence, some presumption, and total guesswork as to what Tudor would do about it. 


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## POR901

Looks like Andygray8 just sold his 007 for $3,150.00. I know of one other low serial number Kingston plank for sale that's in the neighborhood of $3,500.00. I guess the values are going up fast.


----------



## White Tuna

Dragonutity said:


> Tudor> MKII?


I would not say that MKII watches are better than Tudor watches. I think Tudor is stepping up their game recently as well. But how many Tudor's are produced a year? How many Black Bays? How many Pelagos?


----------



## mlb212

The Kingston market is healthy as evidenced by recent sales. GO Kingstons are going for $2000 to $2500, and Plank Kit Kingstons are going for $2500 to $3100. Obviously, desirable serial numbers are at the upper end of each price category.


----------



## dwg

I'd never pay that kind of money for Kingston, but I'm going to get a Key West, while I could have a used Tudor BB for similar price. I don't care about limited editions or resale value - it's just hard to find a nice diver with reasonable size, beautiful proportions and clean design. The big advantage of MKII is, that they only need to design a beautiful watch, while Tudor (or Rolex) need to design a beautiful watch, while satisfying the taste of the masses. 

I agree, that the Tudor is better made, and to be honest, I feel that kingston/nassau/gmt case is a bit outdated. I believe that Paradive or Fulcrum would compare much better.


----------



## BigHaole

dwg said:


> I feel that kingston/nassau/gmt case is a bit outdated.


As homages to watches from the 50s and 60s, I guess that's too be expected. 

What I really wonder is, why are the Kingstons getting flipped so frequently?


----------



## Maxy

dwg said:


> I'd never pay that kind of money for Kingston, but I'm going to get a Key West, while I could have a used Tudor BB for similar price.


You are lucky if you already ordered Key West as I expect Key West to touch $4k to $5k in couple of years, judging Kingston's value.


----------



## Maxy

BigHaole said:


> What I really wonder is, why are the Kingstons getting flipped so frequently?


To buy the Tudor with that money! 
But actually, I think the great ROI is tempting, not many can resist!


----------



## Chromejob

dwg said:


> ... to be honest, I feel that kingston/nassau/gmt case is a bit outdated....


Thank you, that's actually a compliment, and reason that some of us buy these homage watches.



BigHaole said:


> As homages to watches from the 50s and 60s, I guess that's too be expected.
> 
> What I really wonder is, why are the Kingstons getting flipped so frequently?


Are they? I don't think they are.

// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## dwg

Chromejob said:


> Thank you, that's actually a compliment, and reason that some of us buy these homage watches.
> 
> Are they? I don't think they are.
> 
> // Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


I'd say the details and edges on bezel, case and lugs were sharper on old rolexes, but I'm only comparing pictures, so I can be wrong. 
It actually was a compliment, as I feel there is a constant progress of mkII designs and if Bill was reworking the case now, I believe, it would be better. Not sure, if I'd be willing to wait though


----------



## tmoris

wow

seems like yesterday when it was flying back with me from SFO and noone wanted it being ridiculously overpriced at that time so I took the poor baby in..


----------



## BigHaole

Maxy said:


> You are lucky if you already ordered Key West as I expect Key West to touch $4k to $5k in couple of years, judging Kingston's value.


I am also a plankholder, but I completely disagree with expecting a $4k or $5k price. I think the KeyWest will settle in at around the Kingston free-market price, or a little bit lower. Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be worth $5k, but I absolutely don't expect it.


----------



## Maxy

BigHaole said:


> I am also a plankholder, but I completely disagree with expecting a $4k or $5k price. I think the KeyWest will settle in at around the Kingston free-market price, or a little bit lower. Don't get me wrong, I would love for it to be worth $5k, but I absolutely don't expect it.


That $4K-$5K is not really my number; only point I'm trying to make is I feel Key West is far more rarer (with more limited numbers per dial variation) than Kingston and all I'm saying is that it should fetch more than a Kingston price after couple of years. I just mentioned it should fetch more than a Kingston and didn't expect Kingston going for almost $3.5K, so expecting $500more ($4K+) for paying twice the price on Key West is not unimaginable.


----------



## BigHaole

Didn't the Kingston have variations in bezel, pip, date/no-date? Plus some came with the spare parts. And, the Kingston can reasonably be pointed to with the resurgence of gilt dials. I stand by what I said, I think KeyWest prices settle in below or, at best, meeting Kingston prices. Factor in the spare part kits, and it could be well below the Kingston market price.

We all have to remember, these are very limited run watches, with very small fan bases. If 301 people want a Kingston, prices start to rise. But if it were only 299, no one flips their Kingston for a profit.

That being said, if anyone wants to buy my plank spot for $5000, I'm willing to sell it...today only! Added bonus...you get to tell me how wrong I was about the price. That's worth something extra!


----------



## Chromejob

It's a more complicated, expen$ive movement. 


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## andygray8

this has replaced the Kingston



to go alongside this favourite....


----------



## Thieuster

I've just seen the pic of the white dialed Key West on MKII's FB page. The price of that watch will go through the roof in days after it's release, pulling the Kingston prices up as well. MKII will become a brand with the 'well you just GOT to have a MKII'... aura.

Menno


----------



## kkwpk

Thieuster said:


> I've just seen the pic of the white dialed Key West on MKII's FB page. The price of that watch will go through the roof in days after it's release, pulling the Kingston prices up as well. MKII will become a brand with the 'well you just GOT to have a MKII'... aura.
> 
> Menno


I don't think so.


----------



## Dragoon

I think you are on the money with this prediction, Menno! Wow, is all I can say with the reveal of the Albino Key West GMt.

I was thinking I would not be contemplating the Albino Key west Pan Am homage but, I am doing a complete 360 degree shift after seeing those images.

Lets just consider the original Rolex white dial GMT as one of the most elusive Rolex watches that was ever produced (and that is assuming that we can agree that they were originally produced.)

And, now, it can be purchased as a new release with all the quality, gilt dial beauty, and very substantial build and ETA Auto movement. Yikes!

It has just moved up to a "must have" on my short list. This one is not just going to be a "conversation piece" that you can wear on your wrist. This Albino Key West is going to be "missing link" to the whole Pan Am story and their white dial GMT's.

Every watch publication, in print or online, is going to have a spread on this one. Hold on... going to be quite a ride.



Thieuster said:


> I've just seen the pic of the white dialed Key West on MKII's FB page. The price of that watch will go through the roof in days after it's release, pulling the Kingston prices up as well. MKII will become a brand with the 'well you just GOT to have a MKII'... aura.
> 
> Menno


----------



## mrklabb

Dragoon said:


> I think you are on the money with this prediction, Menno! Wow, is all I can say with the reveal of the Albino Key West GMt.
> 
> I was thinking I would not be contemplating the Albino Key west Pan Am homage but, I am doing a complete 360 degree shift after seeing those images.
> 
> Lets just consider the original Rolex white dial GMT as one of the most elusive Rolex watches that was ever produced (and that is assuming that we can agree that they were originally produced.)
> 
> And, now, it can be purchased as a new release with all the quality, gilt dial beauty, and very substantial build and ETA Auto movement. Yikes!
> 
> It has just moved up to a "must have" on my short list. This one is not just going to be a "conversation piece" that you can wear on your wrist. This Albino Key West is going to be "missing link" to the whole Pan Am story and their white dial GMT's.
> 
> Every watch publication, in print or online, is going to have a spread on this one. Hold on... going to be quite a ride.


While I agree that the watch is quite the potential unicorn I think it will fly under the radar much like its inspiration.


----------



## Maxy

BigHaole said:


> Didn't the Kingston have variations in bezel, pip, date/no-date? Plus some came with the spare parts. And, the Kingston can reasonably be pointed to with the resurgence of gilt dials. I stand by what I said, I think KeyWest prices settle in below or, at best, meeting Kingston prices. Factor in the spare part kits, and it could be well below the Kingston market price.
> 
> We all have to remember, these are very limited run watches, with very small fan bases. If 301 people want a Kingston, prices start to rise. But if it were only 299, no one flips their Kingston for a profit.
> 
> That being said, if anyone wants to buy my plank spot for $5000, I'm willing to sell it...today only! Added bonus...you get to tell me how wrong I was about the price. That's worth something extra!


Honestly I think $3-3.5K is max for the micro brands and already cutting into Tudor, beyond that its the luxury market from Omega, Rolex, so on. I would be very surprised if this reaches $5K for plank spot.


----------



## Dragoon

Well, I certainly am not stating in my post that every man, woman, and child in the Western Hemisphere is going to be dreaming of Moby Kingstons and KWs and that all the folks in the free world will have the name MKII and Key West GMT Ivory dial wagging their tongues.

No, of course not.

And, I have no clue on the value it obtain or not obtain. It will be a nice watch and certainly the nicest rendition of the white dial GMT I have seen since Rolex or Omega.

Point being, not many folks know about what a Kingston is. If you went in your local Wal Mart and asked about a Kingston I doubt anyone would know about what you are speaking.

So, when you say the KW is going to fly under the radar I am not sure if I agree or disagree. I think anyone who has an appreciation of vintage Rolex or Rolex inspired pieces and is interested in watches will have a fairly good interest or chance of reading about the Key West Ivory dial or whatever the name of it will be.

It is an interesting story and the type of watch that will CREATE its own interest and fanbase. Very similar to the Kingston, IMO, in that regard.

I completely agree that very few Wal Mart customers will be aware of what and where a Moby Kingston might be obtained!!!|> And certainly not in the seafood section.



mrklabb said:


> While I agree that the watch is quite the potential unicorn I think it will fly under the radar much like its inspiration.


----------



## Chromejob

Maxy said:


> Honestly I think $3-3.5K is max for the micro brands and already cutting into Tudor, beyond that its the luxury market from Omega, Rolex, so on. I would be very surprised if this reaches $5K for plank spot.


Not necessarily. There are boutique brands around the world that make expensive watches for customers that include celebs. I was looking at a Norwegian brand I think that produces very fine watches. The fact that the expensive mass-produced brands are more visible doesn't make them the only source in the upper price ranges.

// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## Maxy

This is a great deal if you buying together. I'm tempted to buy but don't like Vantage and buying only Kingston doesn't look like bargain.

Folks, take advantage.. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mk-ii-kingston-vantage-mkii-1820538.html


----------



## BigHaole

BigHaole said:


> ...if anyone wants to buy my plank spot for $5000, I'm willing to sell it...today only!


In case anyone was wondering, no one took me up on my generous offer (remember it also include the right to tell me I was wrong). I guess I'm going to have to keep my Key West for my own enjoyment!


----------



## Maxy

BigHaole said:


> In case anyone was wondering, no one took me up on my generous offer (remember it also include the right to tell me I was wrong). I guess I'm going to have to keep my Key West for my own enjoyment!


You don't have Key West in your hand, thats the difference. Once you have the watch, there's no limit to temptation!


----------



## Maxy

BigHaole said:


> In case anyone was wondering, no one took me up on my generous offer (remember it also include the right to tell me I was wrong). I guess I'm going to have to keep my Key West for my own enjoyment!


BigHaole, On other hand; some idea about how to sell your spot before your watch arrives! 

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mkii-kingston-limited-edition-plank-owner-430753.html


----------



## Thieuster

kkwpk said:


> I don't think so.


... because?

When you read this complete (years long) thread, you'll see that the Kingston prices are far above anything we ever imagined. $3100 for a Kingston is 3/4 of the price you'll have to pay for a 14060 Rolex ND. Who would have thought that? With the interest at an all time low, combined with the fact that all MKIIs have proven to be a solid investment over the years, I think that a new kind of 'collector' will step up and will dictate the price. Same is happening with classic cars. "Bubble" you'll say. Well, perhaps. But that's not relevant to us, the people who bought the watch from Bill at a fair price.

Therefore I think that the price of the Key West will elevate all MKII prices. (is elevate the correct phrase here?)

Menno


----------



## BigHaole

Maxy said:


> BigHaole, On other hand; some idea about how to sell your spot before your watch arrives!


Don't worry, I'm not planning to sell it and I'm not a "flipper" by nature. I was just saying that anyone who thinks it's a $5k watch, I'm happy to sell them my spot, right now. No one did, so I guess I'll just have to love and enjoy my KeyWest.


----------



## Chromejob

Nevermind, Tapatalk selected the WRONG THREAD.


----------



## andygray8

another addition post-kingston


----------



## Chromejob

Let's stay on topic.... :-/


// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## Arthur

I bought one of my Kingston's from a guy who got discouraged and wanted out before delivery. Luckily for me, he lives about 70 miles away, and we had some mutual acquaintances that vouched for him. I gave him a 50% deposit with the balance on delivery. This was for a 2nd stage order. I believe I paid about 1200.00 USD, and it was delivered directly to me from MKII. I saw his ad on WUS, emailed him about 5 minutes after it was up for more info, and 2 minutes later the ad was gone! WUS will not let you sell anything that you don't physically have in hand, so the sale of his "position" was against WUS rules. I already had a GO Kingston in the pipeline, but this gave me the option of a date dial as well as a non date.

Honestly, I'm pretty amazed that Kingston prices are where they are. I was one of those naysayers that predicted the prices would go down after all 300 were delivered, which didn't happen. I also said that over time the prices would probably creep back up, as fewer watches hit the market. Looks like they went up and stayed up!!! 

AFA the Key West, I would expect since the numbers are similar to the Kingston and they are selling at a higher price point initially, they will command a healthy premium on the secondary market. Not sure about that 5k figure, but 3-3.5k would be reasonable to expect. I do think that one problem with these higher prices, while the value is there, no doubt, they are beginning to compete with well advertised and popular mid range brands like Omega, Tudor and quite a few others. These brands have one big advantage, interested buyers can visit a jeweler or AD and try on any of the other brands. With the Key West, unless the buyer knows someone close by that owns a Key West, he is buying sight unseen. For those of us who have owned several MKII's, that probably wouldn't be a problem, but to a new buyer, it might be a cause for concern.

One thing, once they begin to be released, some will almost immediately hit the sales forums, so it won't take long to establish a price range.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxy

Arthur said:


> I bought one of my Kingston's from a guy who got discouraged and wanted out before delivery. Luckily for me, he lives about 70 miles away, and we had some mutual acquaintances that vouched for him. I gave him a 50% deposit with the balance on delivery. This was for a 2nd stage order. I believe I paid about 1200.00 USD, and it was delivered directly to me from MKII. I saw his ad on WUS, emailed him about 5 minutes after it was up for more info, and 2 minutes later the ad was gone! WUS will not let you sell anything that you don't physically have in hand, so the sale of his "position" was against WUS rules. I already had a GO Kingston in the pipeline, but this gave me the option of a date dial as well as a non date.


This isn't going to happen with KeyWest. Bill has confirmed this and there is discussion in the other thread.


----------



## Arthur

Maxy said:


> This isn't going to happen with KeyWest. Bill has confirmed this and there is discussion in the other thread.


I know that. It was discussed back then as well. In fact while Bill discouraged the practice, he didn't ban it, he just said that he would only ship to the person who made the initial preorder and all the details were between the seller and buyer. I emailed Winnie and told her what we were doing and she said it was OK and she actually sent both the original buyer and I emails of the progress. One difference here, the original buyer had already paid the deposit to MKII. These "code sellers" haven't paid a dime, they are just trying to turn a fast buck. Logistically dealing with deals like this is a nightmare and I can see why Bill wouldn't condone this practice. I don't know why Winnie was OK with the deal I made, maybe because I had another Kingston in the order stage and had bought several watches from Bill over the years, but at any rate it worked out.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxy

Maxy said:


> This is a great deal if you buying together. I'm tempted to buy but don't like Vantage and buying only Kingston doesn't look like bargain.
> 
> Folks, take advantage..
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mk-ii-kingston-vantage-mkii-1820538.html


Back to the thread topic...

Vantage is sold but Kingston is still waiting to be sold at $2.1K and now expecting reasonable offers.... hmmm...


----------



## mrklabb

To be honest, the most surprising thing with Kingston prices in my eyes is the Nassau. You could get a very similar watch from the manufacturer for a lot less than a gilt Kingston yet the secondary market showed a healthy interest. I know there has been speculation, but is there any hard evidence that we will see an every day GMT model like the project GMT but without gilt?


----------



## Maxy

mrklabb said:


> To be honest, the most surprising thing with Kingston prices in my eyes is the Nassau. You could get a very similar watch from the manufacturer for a lot less than a gilt Kingston yet the secondary market showed a healthy interest. I know there has been speculation, but is there any hard evidence that we will see an every day GMT model like the project GMT but without gilt?


I don't think so as GMT without gilt(black dial) is already included in the 300 number as option.


----------



## Pentameter

Maxy said:


> I don't think so as GMT without gilt(black dial) is already included in the 300 number as option.


First, I believe you're wrong - there _will_ be a Nassau-like version of the Key West. The Key West is a limited edition, but there will be a proper release version like the Nassau, though likely without gilt as an option. I think it is even alluded to on the official Project GMT page on MkII's website.

Second, the Kingston was also available as non-gilt, and virtually no-one went w/ that option. This is likely to be the same w/ the Key West.


----------



## Maxy

Pentameter said:


> First, I believe you're wrong - there _will_ be a Nassau-like version of the Key West. The Key West is a limited edition, but there will be a proper release version like the Nassau, though likely without gilt as an option. I think it is even alluded to on the official Project GMT page on MkII's website.
> 
> Second, the Kingston was also available as non-gilt, and virtually no-one went w/ that option. This is likely to be the same w/ the Key West.


Thanks and good to know. I didn't find any discussion about follow up Key West model anywhere but it makes business sense for MKII to make one.


----------



## Dragoon

You probably would see a GMT in the MKII model selection but the fact that ETA movements are so difficult to source is going to make this possibility unlikely.

As MKII is not utilizing alternate movements besides ETA (except the Soprod) we will see if at some point in time if Bill starts using the 9015s and SW200/500's or other movments like the SII NE15's in the future besides using the Soprod A-10 which he currently uses.



mrklabb said:


> To be honest, the most surprising thing with Kingston prices in my eyes is the Nassau. You could get a very similar watch from the manufacturer for a lot less than a gilt Kingston yet the secondary market showed a healthy interest. I know there has been speculation, but is there any hard evidence that we will see an every day GMT model like the project GMT but without gilt?


----------



## Chromejob

Pentameter said:


> First, I believe you're wrong - there _will_ be a Nassau-like version of the Key West. The Key West is a limited edition, but there will be a proper release version like the Nassau, though likely without gilt as an option. I think it is even alluded to on the official Project GMT page on MkII's website.
> 
> Second, the Kingston was also available as non-gilt, and virtually no-one went w/ that option. This is likely to be the same w/ the Key West.


Plank owners got those dials, as I recall. I could be mistaken...



mrklabb said:


> To be honest, the most surprising thing with Kingston prices in my eyes is the Nassau. You could get a very similar watch from the manufacturer for a lot less than a gilt Kingston yet the secondary market showed a healthy interest. I know there has been speculation, but is there any hard evidence that we will see an every day GMT model like the project GMT but without gilt?


I agree, with the Graywater, KW, and past LRRPs (I almost bought one, and you see them in the WRUW thread), a GMT watch would not be new to Mk II.



Maxy said:


> I don't think so as GMT without gilt(black dial) is already included in the 300 number as option.


See above. No reason a non-gilt KW variant (different name and dial branding) couldn't appear in the boutique.

// Posted from Tapatalk 3.2.1 for iOS - later versions are pfft //


----------



## Arthur

Dragoon said:


> You probably would see a GMT in the MKII model selection but the fact that ETA movements are so difficult to source is going to make this possibility unlikely.
> 
> As MKII is not utilizing alternate movements besides ETA (except the Soprod) we will see if at some point in time if Bill starts using the 9015s and SW200/500's or other movments like the SII NE15's in the future besides using the Soprod A-10 which he currently uses.


I agree, the deciding factor would be the availability (or lack of) of movements. Since ETA has really choked off movements to everyone outside the Swatch group, it has caused a shortage of movements pretty much across the board. Unless a reliable, reasonable source of GMT movements develop, I expect the 300 will be all that are produced.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dragoon

I think this was discussed during the early stages of the KW cycle. And, I think Bill actually stated as much in the thread.



Arthur said:


> I agree, the deciding factor would be the availability (or lack of) of movements. Since ETA has really choked off movements to everyone outside the Swatch group, it has caused a shortage of movements pretty much across the board. Unless a reliable, reasonable source of GMT movements develop, I expect the 300 will be all that are produced.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Arthur

Dragoon said:


> I think this was discussed during the early stages of the KW cycle. And, I think Bill actually stated as much in the thread.


You are correct. This would be a limited run like the Kingston's.
Who knows, it may reappear with another name, sort of like the Kingston/Nassau, but here again finding movements may well be the limiting factor.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Maxy

Maxy said:


> Back to the thread topic...
> 
> Vantage is sold but Kingston is still waiting to be sold at $2.1K and now expecting reasonable offers.... hmmm...


Can someone help me here? Why is this Kingston not getting sold at $2.1K whereas another one from same seller sold quickly a week ago for $2.45K? Whats the difference?

$2100 Not sold yet https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-mk-ii-kingston-vantage-mkii-1820538.html
$2450 sold - https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/sold-mk-kingst-n-1786322.html


----------



## Mrwozza70

Why are you that bothered... but perhaps condition, description, photos better... or seller hasn't had the offer needed... or maybe there just isnt a buyer for a non plank at that price. Asking prices are not necessarily sold price so take thd price delta as a loose indication. Timing is everything... It will sell... there will always be a market


----------



## Maxy

Mrwozza70 said:


> *Why are you that bothered*... but perhaps condition, description, photos better... or seller hasn't had the offer needed... or maybe there just isnt a buyer for a non plank at that price. Asking prices are not necessarily sold price so take thd price delta as a loose indication. Timing is everything... It will sell... there will always be a market


Kinda rude reply from you when it wasn't directed towards you.

I'm bothered since I'm interested to buy but timing is not right. Am trying to understand the difference from both same seller and and both non-plank kits and directly asking prices $2450 and $2100 from his original post(not the selling price). I just like to know the differences so that I can know the difference if I get a chance to buy in future.


----------



## Mrwozza70

Maxy said:


> Kinda rude reply from you when it wasn't directed towards you.
> 
> I'm bothered since I'm interested to buy but timing is not right. Am trying to understand the difference from both same seller and and both non-plank kits and directly asking prices $2450 and $2100 from his original post(not the selling price). I just like to know the differences so that I can know the difference if I get a chance to buy in future.


Apologies Maxy as it was not meant to be rude... just you appeared to have highlighted the availability of a single sellers watches on more than one occasion and my initial reaction was why?

Although its tempting to follow the current market I try not to worry myself until I'm in the market. Apologies once again I misread the signals and should have kept my thoughts to myself.


----------



## Maxy

Mrwozza70 said:


> Apologies Maxy as it was not meant to be rude... just you appeared to have highlighted the availability of a single sellers watches on more than one occasion and my initial reaction was why?
> 
> Although its tempting to follow the current market I try not to worry myself until I'm in the market. Apologies once again I misread the signals and should have kept my thoughts to myself.


Thanks, all good!


----------



## Darwin

I'm sorry that you found Mrwozza70's reply rude. I don't find I particularly so, but we each have our own threshold, and I wasn't on the receiving end, so... Now, re: the two watches in question, I suspect that Mrwozza70 is right when he suggests that the price difference has to do with condition. If you look at the ad for the piece currently on offer, there is tape on the bottom of each lug and the seller notes that there is some scratching on the lugs due to strap changes. He also notes that this one has not been a safe queen and has been regularly worn and not babied. The other I presume was sold in near mint/mint condition. All speculation on my part, of course.

FWIW, my advice is that if you want a Kingston, take the plunge and buy one. Prices have only gone up since I started looking in January 2012, at which time I was horrified at the then $1350-1500 asking price (I recall regularly seeing Plank kits for @$1700). I bought mine about 18 months ago and paid close to $1700 USD for a non-plank kit (I had made a few overtures for plank kit Kingstons in the $2100 range, configured as I wanted them with the date, but got cold feet before money changed hands due to anxieties about customs fees and shipping - pissed the sellers off ROYALLY, I can tell you. I'm probably the reason why one of them flat out states in his ads now that he will not entertain offers from Canada. To him, all I can say is that I am sorry. Again.). When I finally bought mine, I plugged my nose and jumped feet first into the water; if I hadn't, I'd probably still be looking. With the exception of a couple of outliers (I missed out on a gilt no-date this past summer for $1100), the prices have been steadily increasing since I bought mine and I can't really see them going down, unless we all ditch our actual watches and start wearing iWatches (it'll be a frosty day in H-E-double hockey sticks before I do that). I've purchased a spot on the Key West preorder and am excited about that watch. However, I am still torn whenever I see a Kingston on offer as there are a couple of configurations that I would like to try (gilt dial with date and red triangle bezel insert followed closely by a gilt dial non-date with either bezel insert. Mine is a non-gilt date model with red triangle bezel). I can totally understand how OCM wound up with 7 of them!



Maxy said:


> Kinda rude reply from you when it wasn't directed towards you.
> 
> I'm bothered since I'm interested to buy but timing is not right. Am trying to understand the difference from both same seller and and both non-plank kits and directly asking prices $2450 and $2100 from his original post(not the selling price). I just like to know the differences so that I can know the difference if I get a chance to buy in future.


----------



## White Tuna

Maxy said:


> Kinda rude reply from you when it wasn't directed towards you.
> 
> I'm bothered since I'm interested to buy but timing is not right. Am trying to understand the difference from both same seller and and both non-plank kits and directly asking prices $2450 and $2100 from his original post(not the selling price). I just like to know the differences so that I can know the difference if I get a chance to buy in future.











I would ask the seller your question as that person has the answer.


----------



## Rspwatch

I am the buyer on the previous Kingston listed at $2,450 by watcholic. I cannot speak to the condition of the current watch, but I can say the one I purchased was barely worn. It also has kept perfect time for 6 days. And you shouldn't assume the list price is the final sales price.


----------



## Arthur

Rspwatch said:


> I am the buyer on the previous Kingston listed at $2,450 by watcholic. I cannot speak to the condition of the current watch, but I can say the one I purchased was barely worn. It also has kept perfect time for 6 days. And you shouldn't assume the list price is the final sales price.


Condition is everything with used watches, no matter the scarcity. I have two Kingston's one has been worn very, very little, the other is a regular user. I would expect that even though superficially they both look great, but on closer examination, the user has some wear which would affect the price.
As to the poster above (Maxy), looking for a Kingston, you can analyze and analyze to your hearts content, but in the end, if you see one for sale that fits your specs, I would buy it. You may pay a bit more than you think is a "good" price, but if you wait, the prices are only going to go up. There were only 300 Kingston's built. A lot of those are in homes where they will never be sold. The pool of watches for sale get's smaller and smaller which will keep the prices high.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Chromejob

Maxy said:


> Can someone help me here? Why ...





Mrwozza70 said:


> Why are you that bothered... but perhaps condition, description, photos better... or seller hasn't had the offer needed... or maybe there just isnt a buyer for a non plank at that price. Asking prices are not necessarily sold price so take thd price delta as a loose indication. Timing is everything... It will sell... there will always be a market





Maxy said:


> Kinda rude reply from you when it wasn't directed towards you.
> .


You're right, you directed your question to EVERYBODY, and he gave you a reasonable answer.

NO one here has a crystal ball. Perhaps the first sold for a "near reasonable offer" that the seller accepted. It had some marks on one of the lugs, and was said to have scratches on the caseback. The current one on offer has fewer detailed photos and some tape on the sides. (shrug)

Maybe no wants a Kingston right now. Maybe there's concern about what's not shown. Maybe with one just sold, the seller needs to wait for another buyer to pop up. Maybe, maybe, maybe.... There are myriad reasons. Take your pick, or formulate your own. But don't snipe at others because you don't like the way the answer is phrased. You have the ability to put anyone on your Ignore List who offends your sensibilities.


----------



## Maxy

Chromejob said:


> You're right, you directed your question to EVERYBODY, and he gave you a reasonable answer.
> 
> NO one here has a crystal ball. Perhaps the first sold for a "near reasonable offer" that the seller accepted. It had some marks on one of the lugs, and was said to have scratches on the caseback. The current one on offer has fewer detailed photos and some tape on the sides. (shrug)
> 
> Maybe no wants a Kingston right now. Maybe there's concern about what's not shown. Maybe with one just sold, the seller needs to wait for another buyer to pop up. Maybe, maybe, maybe.... There are myriad reasons. Take your pick, or formulate your own. But don't snipe at others because you don't like the way the answer is phrased. You have the ability to put anyone on your Ignore List who offends your sensibilities.


I don't get some folks here. Why is everyone trying to jump in for the issue which was between 2 folks and its been resolved a day or two back.

This thread is about Kingston prices and I posted a deal and then trying to research more about the model to give the reasonable offer to the seller. If my question starts *"can someone help me here"* and your reply starts with *"why are you bothered"* its kinda rude IMO. Honestly I didn't even feel half bad but I just made it clear it was "kinda rude" but still went ahead and replied to the person who at least replied to my question and got over it pretty soon. But you guys seem interested to keep it dragging when everything is done and dusted.

If you don't want to answer to any question, you can ignore(there are tons of thread in this forums where folks never get replies) but I don't see the point of replies.. we don't have crystal ball, don't ask us; ask the seller kind of answers.

I think its my fault since I expected some information but getting all kinds of replies for simple question. I've been part of many sub-forums in this site for many years but this one is gotta be the most unfriendliest and unwelcoming sub-forum out there(I'm not the only one to say this, many folks own MKII watches but don't want to be part of this sub-forum for its members behavior).

Anyways, I'm done with this for now. I hope folks don't drag this topic more as I won't be here to reply on this thread.


----------



## mlb212

Maxy said:


> I don't get some folks here. Why is everyone trying to jump in for the issue which was between 2 folks and its been resolved a day or two back.
> 
> If you don't want to answer to any question, you can ignore(there are tons of thread in this forums where folks never get replies) but I don't see the point of replies.. we don't have crystal ball, don't ask us; ask the seller kind of answers.


We don't have a lot to do. We need something to talk about.


----------



## Chromejob

:roll:


----------



## Mrwozza70

This thread needs a picture of reputably the most expensive Kingston on earth 

007 relaxing in the sun...


----------



## TheDude

Shocked by the Vantage price. I paid $615 for mine new plus $12.50 for shipping. July '08.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## BigHaole

TheDude said:


> Shocked by the Vantage price. I paid $615 for mine new plus $12.50 for shipping. July '08.


I heard ya, TheDude! I was just on the website and saw that they have the 3-6-9 Nassau up at $999,999.00. They were so much cheaper, just a year or so ago, when they first launched. Crazy inflation. But, given MKII's track record, I expect those will be worth $4 to 5 million in a few years, so better order one now!


----------



## sennaster

BigHaole said:


> I heard ya, TheDude! I was just on the website and saw that they have the 3-6-9 Nassau up at $999,999.00. They were so much cheaper, just a year or so ago, when they first launched. Crazy inflation. But, given MKII's track record, I expect those will be worth $4 to 5 million in a few years, so better order one now!


Agreed, they are very nice watches. I love mine. I've worn it at least 5x per week since it arrived. Because of usual wear, i would consider letting it go for ~$900K however ... what a steal!


----------



## Mrwozza70

Feels amazing value every time this is placed on my wrist...


----------



## White Tuna

Mrwozza70 said:


> Feels amazing value every time this is placed on my wrist...


Congratulations. Is it BGW9?


----------



## Mrwozza70

White Tuna said:


> Congratulations. Is it BGW9?


Yes it is... I've had it a while... and it was a significant purchase  but it strikes me every time I wear it the quality and value shine through.

Anybody who wonders what all the fuss is about can't have had the good fortune to handle and wear one.


----------



## White Tuna

Mrwozza70 said:


> Yes it is... I've had it a while... and it was a significant purchase  but it strikes me every time I wear it the quality and value shine through.
> 
> Anybody who wonders what all the fuss is about can't have had the good fortune to handle and wear one.


I catch mine in the mirror from across the room sometimes and you can see the gilt quite a bit away under the right conditions.


----------



## mlb212

How better to revive this thread then with the first Kingston plank kit for sale in a while...$3250 red triangle

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-plank-mkii-kingston-17-300-a-2283522.html


----------



## Chromejob

(gulp) Wow. Not to be jerk, but for that price, I sure as heck would hope the seller would throw in a nylon strap. Heck for that, I'd throw in one of Jim's Seal's Bond straps (or Phoenix), 4 Marathon SAR shoulder-less spring bars, maybe a Bergeon (branded or non-branded) tools, some Earl Grey tea leaves, and an autographed 5x7" pic of Keye Luke.[1] When I considered flipping mine (*sorry, it's not in the cards, so don't PM me to ask*), I was going to include those and more.

Still,... plank kit is a plank kit. Best of luck to the seller, it may not take long. It's a seller's market.

[1] If you get the reference, I'll send you a Bond strap.


----------



## mlb212

Chromejob said:


> (gulp) Wow. Not to be jerk, but for that price, I sure as heck would hope the seller would throw in a nylon strap. Heck for that, I'd throw in one of Jim's Seal's Bond straps (or Phoenix), 4 Marathon SAR shoulder-less spring bars, maybe a Bergeon (branded or non-branded) tools, some Earl Grey tea leaves, and an autographed 5x7" pic of Keye Luke.[1] When I considered flipping mine (*sorry, it's not in the cards, so don't PM me to ask*), I was going to include those and more.
> 
> Still,... plank kit is a plank kit. Best of luck to the seller, it may not take long. It's a seller's market.
> 
> [1] If you get the reference, I'll send you a Bond strap.


I think you have gremlins...


----------



## White Tuna

I think he could do better on the description because even though it is a red triangle the spare bezel is not so that ups the audience. 

Also he does not mention the spare dial or what lume is on either dial. Nice watch. I just had a scare with mine as I dropped it on a sidewalk. Luckily no cosmetic damage but I had it serviced because it was losing a lot of time. 

There are still watches that interest me, because I look, but I do not think I could find a better daily wear.


----------



## Thieuster

mlb212 said:


> How better to revive this thread then with the first Kingston plank kit for sale in a while...$3250 red triangle
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-plank-mkii-kingston-17-300-a-2283522.html


Thanks for sharing this with us. I am interested to see where this ends... My guess? It will sink down to page 3,4 etc of the FS pages and finally into oblivion 'cause the price is very very high!

Menno


----------



## Mrwozza70

I'm guessing that fewer of these will come up for sale as the prices slowly creep up and they end up as prized trophies in collections.

Sellers market and still very much sought after... and the reason is plain to see


----------



## mlb212

Kingston plank kit (17/300) price reduction to $3000. Its beginning to enter the much discussed price range for plank kits of $2600 to $3000.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f29/fs-plank-mkii-kingston-17-300-a-2283522.html


----------



## mlb212

With Nassaus and Kingstons in short supply, those wanting that classic MKII look will have to start looking at alternatives...

TimeZone : TZ Showcase » FS : Rolex 1665 1,7m TROPICAL MK2 Brown dial DRSD thin case '67


----------



## Aceldama

Still kicking myself for not picking up a Kingston 2 years back for $1300 locally. Forgot who was selling it. I don't regret the price I recently paid because I don't intend to re-sell. I have 3 keepers: my father's Seamaster, my godfather's Rolex Submariner, and the Kingston.


----------



## Plat0

Thieuster said:


> Thanks for sharing this with us. I am interested to see where this ends... My guess? It will sink down to page 3,4 etc of the FS pages and finally into oblivion 'cause the price is very very high!
> 
> Menno


I love my Kingston and I wish I had kept my second one but I would not pay that price. Nobody should unless Mr. Yao (God forbid) suddenly meets his demise. The fine watch prices in general are already obscene and they don't need to be driven up by needless markups.


----------



## Pentameter

I have similar thoughts about many old Rolex's, but people continue to pay exorbitant prices for them, proving the idea that things are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them, and I really have no clue when it comes to assigning value to limited, sentimental objects. I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn't pay for something if it's important enough to them.


----------



## mlb212

Red triangle kingston GO OHPF at $2200, for those keeping score.


----------



## TheGanzman

...and EVERYONE that EVER is considering selling any THING online should read that FS Thread - THAT is how you sell something! Nice job, Omega Cosmic Man; although I HOPE you have a second Kingston, or I predict postpartum depression...


----------



## White Tuna

TheGanzman said:


> ...and EVERYONE that EVER is considering selling any THING online should read that FS Thread - THAT is how you sell something! Nice job, Omega Cosmic Man; although I HOPE you have a second Kingston, or I predict postpartum depression...


Holey-Whack-A-Moley Batman!










What a well written for sale post. Usually when there are a lot of pictures there usually is a poor description.

I think that OCM may have another Kingston or two lying around after this sale.

Good luck OmegaCosmicMan and I hope all is well with you and your family.


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Thanks for the kind words, guys -- The Kingston.... It really sells itself. 

:think: All I try to do is describe what I see in it...those wonderful things about it that appeal to me. 

- And if another person comes along, who appreciates it and sees it as I do - Well.... - We can both be happy. 

Myself, and the wonderful Lady-who-lets-me Live-with-Her are fine....

Thanks for your Kind Words and Good Thoughts.

|>|>


----------



## Pentameter

TheGanzman said:


> ...and EVERYONE that EVER is considering selling any THING online should read that FS Thread - THAT is how you sell something! Nice job, Omega Cosmic Man; although I HOPE you have a second Kingston, or I predict postpartum depression...


haha, agreed! I have enjoyed looking at his MkII FS posts as they are FILLED w/ amazing photos&#8230; I am pretty confident he could leave out the elaborate descriptions (which are also fantastic) and the watches would sell themselves on the pics alone.


----------



## TheGanzman

Pentameter said:


> haha, agreed! I have enjoyed looking at his MkII FS posts as they are FILLED w/ amazing photos&#8230; I am pretty confident he could leave out the elaborate descriptions (which are also fantastic) and the watches would sell themselves on the pics alone.


Well, us old guys like to "elaborate" on most things, LOL. I suspect that he's like me - "Ask him what time it is and he'll tell you how to build a clock." - which is what a conversation with ME is described as!


----------



## Chromejob

TheGanzman said:


> Well, us old guys like to "elaborate" on most things, LOL. I suspect that he's like me - "Ask him what time it is and he'll tell you how to build a clock." - which is what a conversation with ME is described as!


And then there's us types that will regale you with the story of Harrison's maritime chronometer and what it meant for world navigation, exploration, trade.....


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

Chromejob said:


> And then there's us types that will regale you with the story of Harrison's maritime chronometer and what it meant for world navigation, exploration, trade.....


:-d I saw that on PBS!

-- Seriously though, History is a good teacher.....|>|>.

(Awww, never mind.)


----------



## Chromejob

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> :-d I saw that on PBS!
> 
> -- Seriously though, History is a good teacher.....|>|>.
> 
> (Awww, never mind.)


 The BBC movie with Jeremy Irons and Michael Gambon, or the Nova documentary? Both are excellent.

http://www.blu-ray.com/dvd/Longitude-DVD/16423/


----------



## Mrwozza70

Another amazingly detailed and interesting sales post of a rare Kingston matte dial, non gilt, date variant.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=2406954

Amazing stuff OmegaCosmicMan and congratulations to new owner.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Knoc

Right on and expected that to flip fast.


----------



## TheGanzman

Mrwozza70 said:


> Another amazingly detailed and interesting sales post of a rare Kingston matte dial, non gilt, date variant.
> 
> FS MKII Kingston MK II
> 
> Amazing stuff OmegaCosmicMan and congratulations to new owner.


I have it on good authority that, several years ago, Omega Cosmic Man sold a pair of binoculars to Stevie Wonder; two days later Stevie brought his friend Ray Charles by to purchase a pair of binoculars from OCM...


----------



## OmegaCosmicMan

TheGanzman said:


> I have it on good authority that, several years ago, Omega Cosmic Man sold a pair of binoculars to Stevie Wonder; two days later Stevie brought his friend Ray Charles by to purchase a pair of binoculars from OCM...


Naaaah.... That was that other guy that looks just like me. He does a lot of stuff that I get blamed for..... :-|

--- Be Well ---

|>|>


----------



## Dragoon

OmegaCosmicMan said:


> Naaaah.... That was that other guy that looks just like me. He does a lot of stuff that I get blamed for..... :-|
> 
> --- Be Well ---
> 
> |>|>


As Yogi Berra used to say.... "I didn't really say everything I said." And.... "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."

Good luck with the non gilt! Its a beautiful design.

I did nt warm up to the non gilt Kingston when they were offered just because the gilt dials were so amazing. I remember a few guys really liked em.


----------



## MHe225

Dragoon said:


> .... I didn't warm up to the non gilt Kingston when they were offered just because the gilt dials were so amazing ....


Side-by-side, really no contest. I did consider a non-gilt dial for the spare in my Plank kit, but couldn't bring myself to order it, knowing that I could have a spare gilt.Now I have the best of both worlds as I also have a BC Nassau


----------



## goyoneuff

The book gents, the book !!! It is so awesome !!!!! 


Chromejob said:


> And then there's us types that will regale you with the story of Harrison's maritime chronometer and what it meant for world navigation, exploration, trade.....





OmegaCosmicMan said:


> :-d I saw that on PBS!
> 
> -- Seriously though, History is a good teacher.....|>|>.
> 
> (Awww, never mind.)





Chromejob said:


> The BBC movie with Jeremy Irons and Michael Gambon, or the Nova documentary? Both are excellent.
> 
> http://www.blu-ray.com/dvd/Longitude-DVD/16423/


----------

