# Damasko, shake don't wind?



## snoozer 60 (Apr 2, 2010)

I recently purchased my 1st Damasko, DA-36 from WatchMann. When the watch arrived it was accompanied by a note to "shake, not wind the watch" to start the movement. The DA-36 has a ETA 2836-2 movement, which to my knowledge is pretty common. I called the service tech at WatchMann and he basically repeated the same mantra and suggested I use this advice on all my auto movement watches, has anybody heard this before?


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## a-Tom-ic (Mar 3, 2009)

Yes, we've had threads on this before, some specific to Watchmann's insert and some not. To me it seems like good, intuitive advice. Less wear on the train to wind via rotor versus crown. Shake the watch a dozen times, set it, then wear it for a day- that's what I've been doing with success.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

I am winding not shaking. Damasko and all other watches.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

:roll: It's advice given by twits.


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## WatchMann (Mar 3, 2007)

Name calling watchbreath? That is sad on an otherwise civil forum. 

Our watchmaker sees eta automatic movements with stripped gears in the manual wind assembly on a regular basis.


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## krs (Nov 10, 2006)

i no longer wind watches.
i have a doxa t-graph and kobold seal and another valjx 7750 watch.
i shake them a few times and am off and running.
twits? oh, i don't know - that is a bit heavy handed, is it not?
i have been doing this for a few months now and read about it on the doxa forum. and it works prefectly, i can surely inform you of that.
a bit less wear and tear on the crown/tubing, wouldn't you agree?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

No.


krs said:


> i no longer wind watches.
> i have a doxa t-graph and kobold seal and another valjx 7750 watch.
> i shake them a few times and am off and running.
> twits? oh, i don't know - that is a bit heavy handed, is it not?
> ...


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

Hello,

It has been reported on the forum that the ETA automatic movements
have brass winding gears, while the manual wind movements such as
the ETA/Unitas 6497 and 6498 have steel winding gears. Thus, it was 
recommended in those posts to not make a daily practice of manually
winding the automatic movements. I will look for the posts. You can
read them and decide if you agree.

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

For a new watch you should wind it using the crown to at least 50% of PR instead of shake it, then set the date and wear it.


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## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

Fine, call me a twit if you must. I now never manually wind an automatic watch, and that's the advice I'd give...

Shake (gently) the watch for a few seconds, set the time and just wear it. I've never had a watch stop on me while wearing it.

I have stripped the gears on two inexpensive automatic watches when I first got into this hobby. Both watches still work just fine and I can wear then and they'll wind automatically, but try to wind by the crown and there's horrible grinding sounds.

Why risk doing that to your watch?


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

HilltopMichael said:


> ...
> I have stripped the gears on two inexpensive automatic watches when I first got into this hobby. Both watches still work just fine and I can wear then and they'll wind automatically, but try to wind by the crown and there's horrible grinding sounds.
> 
> Why risk doing that to your watch?


Hello Michael,

Based on your choice of watch size I guess you are not someone who 
worries about getting bumped. Still, this is and will remain a friendly forum.

Thank you for relating your personal experience. Did you get those 
watches new? Do you recall and care to relate how long it took for
the first occurrence of those hand winding issues?

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

According to Lysanderiii some movements are ok to handwind, others not so much. The 7750 is ok, the 2824 not so much. There are reasons for this, but you'd have to search his posts for them, they're technically beyond me.


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## mattcantwin (Aug 17, 2007)

These two...

shaken, not stirred, not wound, no problems. :-!


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## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

rationaltime said:


> Did you get those watches new? Do you recall and care to relate how long it took for the first occurrence of those hand winding issues?


Both watches that I broke were relatively inexpensive watches with Chinese movements that I had purchased new. One failed at about six months and the other failed after only a couple of months. I still have both watches and they still run perfectly and keep acceptable time - it's just that you can't manually wind them anymore.

I try not to be too rough with my watches, but I would wind those watches like I would my 6497 based watches. I suspect that I was just turning the crown much too fast on those automatic watches, and I wound them daily. I never had any problems with my manual wind movements (and for those I always fully wind them until they can't be wound anymore)

After the second one broke, I read up on this on various forums and found some posts stating that if you wind an automatic too quickly there's a chance that you'll spin one of the gears much too fast. Something about how the rotor needs to spin many times to give the same winding effort as a small turn of the crown. I also found other threads about not needing to manually wind an automatic - just get it started and wear it - that that just made sense to me.

Why bother manually winding an automatic watch when wearing it is all that's required?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

HilltopMichael said:


> Why bother manually winding an automatic watch when wearing it is all that's required?


If you put it on near bedtime or even late in the day and don't wind it chances are it'll run down overnight (assuming no winder to put it on).

But otherwise, I think it's probably prudent to let the motion of your wrist wind it.

Or, give it 20 winds or so. The Vostok diver's movement says wind it no more than 15-20x, implying less winding is better than more.


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## David Woo (Feb 12, 2006)

This is an interesting discussion, with valid points on each side.
I can understand that different movements were designed for different methods of winding, with differing results/consequences if they are wound "the other way." So the conflicting advice actually makes sense to me.

I've always been of the understanding that a movement will function closer to the intended spec if the power reserve is closer to full, then if it was low on reserve. This is why I manually wind (I switch watches daily, and have to wind and set my watch each day) the watch 10-20 times before setting the time and strapping it on. 

But what do I know, lol? Maybe that's why I've often had problems with ETA movements, hard to wind, stops often... 
DW


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

|> Yep, a watch is at it's highest accuracy at the top 25% of it's power
reserve.


David Woo said:


> This is an interesting discussion, with valid points on each side.
> I can understand that different movements were designed for different methods of winding, with differing results/consequences if they are wound "the other way." So the conflicting advice actually makes sense to me.
> 
> I've always been of the understanding that a movement will function closer to the intended spec if the power reserve is closer to full, then if it was low on reserve. This is why I manually wind (I switch watches daily, and have to wind and set my watch each day) the watch 10-20 times before setting the time and strapping it on.
> ...


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## Fingolfin (Nov 20, 2009)

hilltopmichael said:


> both watches that i broke were relatively inexpensive watches with chinese movements


shocking!


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## Andy S. (Feb 18, 2006)

I'm manually winding all my auto watches whenever i have the inclination or need & i don't worry about it....it's there to be used.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

David Woo said:


> I've always been of the understanding that a movement will function closer to the intended spec if the power reserve is closer to full, then if it was low on reserve. This is why I manually wind (I switch watches daily, and have to wind and set my watch each day) the watch 10-20 times before setting the time and strapping it on.DW


Isochronism is definitely important to bring into the discussion. Yesterday my 2893 was nearing the end of its wind and it lost 10 seconds in a few hours (it's normally +3/day). Whether that's excessive isochronism or normal I don't know and in a way can't know because I don't know just how wound down it was.

Automatic movements should (and do) suffer less isochronism than manual winding watches because it's assumed automatics are generally at least 75% wound as worn.

In order to balance out wear on the winder with effects of isochronism winding 15-20 times just might be a sweet spot, whereas winding 60-70 times would be unnecessary and could be harmful to the movement (again, depending on the movement). Unless I'm putting the watch on at night where I won't be moving much until morning I don't see any reason to give a full wind to an automatic watch :think:.


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## HilltopMichael (Mar 5, 2008)

David Woo said:


> I've always been of the understanding that a movement will function closer to the intended spec if the power reserve is closer to full, then if it was low on reserve. This is why I manually wind (I switch watches daily, and have to wind and set my watch each day) the watch 10-20 times before setting the time and strapping it on.


It's probably true that if the watch is always near it's full power reserve that it could be more accurate than if the power reserve varied wildly.

However, if you switch watches daily is that even a concern? Shake the watch in the morning to get it going, set the time and wear it for the day. Repeat with a different watch the next morning...


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## krs (Nov 10, 2006)

12 hours ago i picked up my fricker made nur spec (vljx 7750) and have been timing it. it is less than +1 second right now and i would expect it will be the same as always - about +2 seconds a day.
did i wind it? nope. i just shook it a few times side to side and wore it.

so the accuracy is not affected at all by the shake to start method.
as long as you shake the watch a few times and then wear it the power reserve will increase through out the day anyway.
and if it stopped at 2 : 17 for example and you make a mental note to start the watch at that time, you do not even need to unscrew the crown.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

For the effects of continually handwinding a 2824, as opposed to a 2801, see:

WatchTime Forum • Thema anzeigen - ETA 2824 "Handaufzug" (in German).


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

Martin (Crusader) posted up on this thread a link on a German forum. Now, for those who can't read German, here's the low-down:

The manual winding mechanism on the 2824 family of watches is weak: the mechanism is not as well built as, say, the 280x family of watch movements, which is basically the 2824 without the automatic assembly (rotor and auto-winding mechanism).

The difference? The crown gear in the 2824 family of watch movements allows the watch to be wound via the auto-winding mechanism without having the entire keyless works moving as well when the watch is worn. This Is A Good Thing, since it saves wear and tear on the coupling part of the keyless works (which you use to set the watch!).

On the 2824 family, this gear, made of very hard steel, rests on an eccentric post that allows this gear to bypass the keyless works when the watch is being wound via the auto-winding mechanism. This post is made of the same material as the base plate of the watch, i.e. a relatively soft steel alloy (soft in order to make the machining of this baseplate significantly easier, reducing manufacturing costs).

The link shows a watch with user-documented wear: the watch was worn only on the weekends for 10 years. Hence it was wound manually 520 times, full, and the time was set. The wear on this part is non-trivial (0,3mm removed!) and of course the metal shavings ended up in the watch movement and led to the watch stopping.

The manual-wind version of this watch has a single, non-eccentric post with a hardened steel inlay that prevents this wear.

Hence: while this is not a show-stopper (the 2824 continues to be a great work-horse movement!), the recommendation to shake and not wind isn't a bad idea at all: you _*do*_ reduce wear on the winding mechanism of the 2824 family and that _*can*_ save you a repair job further down the road.

You mileage may vary: however, it is reality, as can be seen by the pictures in the link that Martin (Crusader) supplied. You're welcome to your own opinions, but facts are facts...

JohnF


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## Fingolfin (Nov 20, 2009)

JohnF said:


> The manual winding mechanism on the 2824 family of watches is weak: the mechanism is not as well built as, say, the 280x family of watch movements, which is basically the 2824 without the automatic assembly (rotor and auto-winding mechanism).
> 
> The difference? The crown gear in the 2824 family of watch movements allows the watch to be wound via the auto-winding mechanism without having the entire keyless works moving as well when the watch is worn. This Is A Good Thing, since it saves wear and tear on the coupling part of the keyless works (which you use to set the watch!).
> 
> On the 2824 family, this gear, made of very hard steel, rests on an eccentric post that allows this gear to bypass the keyless works when the watch is being wound via the auto-winding mechanism. This post is made of the same material as the base plate of the watch, i.e. a relatively soft steel alloy (soft in order to make the machining of this baseplate significantly easier, reducing manufacturing costs).


Thanks for the post. |>

In comparison to the mechanism described above, does anyone know if the ETA 2836-2(used by Damasko) differs in method or metallurgy, or is it the same as the 2824?

The other question is regarding the example given of a stoppage. It is stated this watch was worn 10 years and manually wound. Was the watch serviced at all during this time? If the stoppage was due to chips from wear, proper maintenance may have prevented the problem. The only other factor is how critical the wear is to function when it relates to dimensional changes.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

Fundamentally, yes.

ETA's approach to dual-direction winding is based on letting a gear slip between two directions by using an eccentric post. This is true on the 2824 and the 2839, but in the case of the 2836 it's not so much that the post is eccentric, but rather than the space for the gear itself is eccentric, allowing for the gear to move...

Woops, just checked the 2836 schematics: the post is eccentric, but it's not got quite the same play as the other calibers....the eccentric post is on the barrel bridge reverse side (part #105), where the crown gear (#420) attaches.

From what I could gather, the watch had not been serviced in the meantime (and the owner hadn't had it serviced, relying instead on the "get it serviced when it breaks or starts acting funny" school of maintenance, which, given the generally excellent performance of ETA movements, is certainly a very legitimate approach to servicing).

It's not so much that the watch was manually wound: it is more that it was manually wound 520 times, 52 times a year for 10 years, and that once wound power was generated via the automatic winding system. Proper maintenance would not have prevented the problem: after all, this wear happened in a place where there are usually not a lot of forces involved and where it shouldn't have made a difference. Because ETA expects users to follow a certain profile - i.e. actually wear the watches to run the automatic winding system and not manually wind the watch up all the time - they have manufactured the watch to meet operating criteria with the minimum of effort. 

Do note that changing this would require a hardened metal insert into the base plate, one that itself would generate basically the same problem but take much longer to do so. The eccentric shape needed to accommodate dual-direction winding is the problem here. Other systems avoid this (for instance, the Elgin auto-wind system uses jewels to avoid the wear that you see here, and the Seiko "magic fingers" system uses a completely different principle).

A 7750 doesn't have this problem, for instance, because it is a single-direction automatic winding system...

JohnF


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

JohnF said:


> On the 2824 family, this gear, made of very hard steel, rests on an eccentric post that allows this gear to bypass the keyless works when the watch is being wound via the auto-winding mechanism. This post is made of the same material as the base plate of the watch, i.e. a relatively soft steel alloy (soft in order to make the machining of this baseplate significantly easier, reducing manufacturing costs).
> 
> The manual-wind version of this watch has a single, non-eccentric post with a hardened steel inlay that prevents this wear.
> 
> Hence: while this is not a show-stopper (the 2824 continues to be a great work-horse movement!), the recommendation to shake and not wind isn't a bad idea at all: you _*do*_ reduce wear on the winding mechanism of the 2824 family and that _*can*_ save you a repair job further down the road.


that's definitely an achilles heel of the 2824 with its eccentric post made out of soft steel alloy in order to save a few bucks. I know you provided only one example, but if that's even close to representative it puts the service life of this eccentric post at ~520 winds. Manual winding with this movement is more a liability than a feature, especially when few people will find out about this compromise in its design to at least have the option of changing their winding behavior. I won't call the 2824 a "workhorse" movement anymore, not with its potential limp if a feature is used as advertised with no warning concerning overuse. At least Vostok is candid with advising handwinding their automatics not more than 15-20 times.

Handwinding doesn't seem like such a high-end feature anymore, at least not with the 2824. All to save a few bucks <|o|


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

My bad, as I have not explained it well enough!

The problem isn't the automatic winding: it works very well, and as designed! It is an excellent performer and very robust.

The problem is winding the watch _*manually*_. When the auto-wind mechanism is in use, there is no problem!

The 2824 remains a great workhorse movement: just don't wind it up manually all the time. Shake, not wind!

JohnF


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

JohnF said:


> Because ETA expects users to follow a certain profile - i.e. actually wear the watches to run the automatic winding system and not manually wind the watch up all the time - they have manufactured the watch to meet operating criteria with the minimum of effort.


And it's the WIS who will be most affected by this design compromise, given we own many watches, and many of us refuse winders. But, again, in the scheme of things we represent a small percent of ETA sales.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

JohnF said:


> Hi -
> 
> My bad, as I have not explained it well enough!
> 
> ...


That was my bad, John, I said "automatic" when I meant manual wind (since corrected)." Automatic winding is of course fine for the watch :-!. And I know I'm verging on alarmist about this design compromise but it only becomes a real problem when parameters of normal vs. abnormal use of the watch winding mechanisms are withheld by ETA/manufacturers because we (WIS) are too small a group to alarm the whole. Thank goodness for WUS.


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## rationaltime (May 1, 2008)

Hello John,

Thank you for writing the summary of the discussion in German.

I am not a watchmaker. Looking at the ETA specs I fail to to detect the difference
between the ETA 2836-2 and 2824-2 winding mechanisms. To my uneducated eye
the drawings and part numbers look the same. (I wish I could XOR the drawings.)
I also see the crown wheel and "click" are specified to be lubricated with Moebius D5
or HP-1300. I don't know whether lubrication of the gear teeth or pivot might affect
the wear.

On the ETA 2892-2 the winding gear train is different, but the crown wheel is the
same part number as on the ETA 2824-2. I could not translate the opinion about
whether the ETA 2892-2 might be subject to the same wear pattern. Please, could
you clarify that for us?

Thanks,
rationaltime


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## stockae92 (Feb 10, 2006)

same question as rationaltime, so for (supposing) higher end 2892 movement, should we still shake and not (manually) wind?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

stockae92 said:


> same question as rationaltime, so for (supposing) higher end 2892 movement, should we still shake and not (manually) wind?


:-d same question and reaction if it's no different from the 2824: I won't call the 2893 a "higher end" movement.


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## FlyPenFly (May 18, 2009)

It seems extremely rare that even a WIS would wind up their automatic to full power reserve that often. The 7750 also has other weaknesses in its manual winding system though.


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## mattcantwin (Aug 17, 2007)

Worthwhile discussion here...


might be worth sharing elsewhere on WUS.


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## aerovac63 (Jun 30, 2008)

I love your twins


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## Aldehyde (Feb 1, 2016)

I know this is a dead post, but as a relatively new member of WUS I just want to say thank you to the members. The depth of knowledge here is impressive.


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

The "issue" of winding usually comes up about once a month.


Aldehyde said:


> I know this is a dead post, but as a relatively new member of WUS I just want to say thank you to the members. The depth of knowledge here is impressive.


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## akitadog (Sep 3, 2009)

I can attest to the fact that DA36 should be wound as little as possible. Mine developed a problem as I liked to wind my watches.

Akitadog, from the WET coast of BC Canada


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## Jeffro1 (Feb 22, 2013)

Hmm, no. I've heard of shaken, not stirred tho! Seriously, maybe I'll shake more.


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## CastorTroy3 (Dec 24, 2015)

So are we shaking only ETA movements?


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## Watchbreath (Feb 12, 2006)

Don't include ME in the "we".


CastorTroy3 said:


> So are we shaking only ETA movements?


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## Buramu (Oct 19, 2015)

CastorTroy3 said:


> So are we shaking only ETA movements?


This is indeed a question that begs to be asked. And I'm wondering how that translates to e.g. the Sellita SW2x0 movements, which are based for the most part on the 2824 design. Or the various Miyota movements that claim to be "handwindable"?

I don't mind the shake-n-go approach, but I tend to give my automatics a 5 or 6 twists of the crown before letting them run free (also because I love the subtle haptic sensations of handwinding the spring).


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## bruno47 (Nov 12, 2012)

I just bought a DA47. The watch could not be winded days after i got the watch. The crown was just spinning with no resistance. I sent it straight back. I have had no such problem with my three other Damaskos.


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