# three generations of Vostok Precision



## storyteller

I recently started a thread about some obscure details of Vostok Precision movement, which quickly moved to a discussion on how to distinguish a VP from a mule or franken. Honestly, I'm never sure, but some general trends still exist and today I made some photos to illustrate them.

The first generation of VP 2809 is with white movement and I have seen it only with this type of dial:









It was produced 1957 - 1960 and has quarter and year of production stamped on the bridge.

In parallel, a lower grade 2809 'Volna' was produced between 1958 and 1960 with white movement and quarter / year of production indicated on the bridge.









However, notice the difference in the fonts and the quality of engraving. The A in "_22 кАмня_" in VP is sharp angled, compared to the more rotund "_22 камня_" in Volna. This important observation belongs to Egern from watch.ru

















The shockproof device on VP looks a bit different. Maybe some more knowledgeable forum member could help?

The second generation of Vostok Precision was produced between 1961 and 1964. It has yellow (gold-plated) movement and =ЧЧЗ= logo.









This is the most common type of VP and unfortunately the most difficult to tell from the ordinary Volna / Vostok 2809A, which - according to the Soviet state standards (ГОСТ) had inferior acuracy - +/- 30 sec. per day against +5/-10 for VP (actually, I wonder why it should be +5/-10, instead of +/-8, or +10/-5; never mind). Plenty of VP dials with this type of movement - from early ones, like on the first photo, to latest ones usually associated with third-generation VP movements.

The problem is that there are also plenty of Vostok simple, without Precision adjective, with the same yellow movement with =ЧЧЗ= logo.









While in the same time there are several honest Volna with white movement and =ЧЧЗ= logo, produced between 1961 and 1964.









So how to explain the yellow =ЧЧЗ= movements in Vostok non-Precision watches? The strongest theory is that these are VP movements which didn't pass quality tests. (_I have some doubts - because the first and third generations movements were obviously produced on different lines; I can't imagine that they first passed the tests, hen were disassembled, had their bridges or mainplate engraved, and reassembled - but still have to admit that this is the best argumented theory_).

The third generation of VP was produced after 1964 and has two important modifications - the "В" (like " Восток") logo and usually has smaller jewels. Most of the VP with such logo have 18mm lugs (against the 16mm lugs of the earlier generations). All of them are yellow.









All VP from this B-logo generation that I have, have 2809 engraved under the balance

























In parallel, a Vostok non-precision was produced with white movement, smaller jewels, and B (looking a bit like @) logo.

















It has 2809A engraved under the balance wheel.









Again, these are just trends - a specific type of movement is most often associated with specific dial and case. I can imagine situations that older movements stocked from earlier years, were put in newer cases under newer dials (or vice versa). So consider this post as a beginning of a discussion.


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## arktika1148

Been after a Volna for quite awhile but a nightmare to follow so many thanks for the thread.
Still can't understand as to why so many different dials for a run of so few years.
Wish they re-started production in a st.st. 38 or 40mm case


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## watch22

Does a Volna also need "precision" on the dial, or are all Volnas precision?


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## Vaurien

Are there such Vostok 2809 with not screw back?
I have many Volnas and Vostok precision and not, but all with screw-in back.


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## storyteller

Vaurien, all honest 2809 - incl. Almaz, Volna, Vostok, and Vostok Precision that I have seen, have two-piece caseback + screw-in ring. There are cases of obscure origin with one piece caseback, I don't remember if they were snap or screw-in, currently available on that frankenmasters' wallmart, aukro.ua.

Watch22, Volna was produced between 1958 and - it seems - 1964, when it was replaced by Vostok-branded watches with white 2809A movement. They never had 'Precision' adjective, because they were not precision class watches. Under the Soviet standards, Volna had an expected daily accuracy of +/- 30 sec. per day, which was lower even than 1st class Poljot movements, let alone the chronometer class (or 'Precision class' in Soviet terminology) VP. Old Volna could be very accurate (I have one with - 6 sec. per day), but they were not supposed to be 'Precision', this is one of the few things I am sure.


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## bubba48

storyteller said:


> Vaurien, all honest 2809 - incl. Almaz, Volna, Vostok, and Vostok Precision that I have seen, have two-piece caseback + screw-in ring. There are cases of obscure origin with one piece caseback, I don't remember if they were snap or screw-in, currently available on that frankenmasters' wallmart, aukro.ua.
> 
> ...


Do you think that this Vostok is a franken?




























...and this too?




























Both have the same snap caseback


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## watch22

storyteller said:


> Watch22, Volna was produced between 1958 and - it seems - 1964, when it was replaced by Vostok-branded watches with white 2809A movement. They never had 'Precision' adjective, because they were not precision class watches. Under the Soviet standards, Volna had an expected daily accuracy of +/- 30 sec. per day, which was lower even than 1st class Poljot movements, let alone the chronometer class (or 'Precision class' in Soviet terminology) VP. Old Volna could be very accurate (I have one with - 6 sec. per day), but they were not supposed to be 'Precision', this is one of the few things I am sure.


I didn't know that.

Now I regret sending back that Boctok Precision that arrived broken (one of the few watches I ever sent back) figuring I didn't really need it since I had a Volna.


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## storyteller

bubba48 said:


> Do you think that this Vostok is a franken?
> 
> ...and this too?


Yes, I do.


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## bubba48

storyteller said:


> Yes, I do.


Meaning that dials and movements are original but recased?


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## Topi

bubba48 said:


> Meaning that dials and movements are original but recased?


The upper one with the better dial is probably a redial job.

Topi


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## Vaurien

Thank you Storyteller and topi! A very interesting thread.


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## storyteller

Thank you too, Vaurien.

Bubba48, I think both watches were recased. Actually, people from watch.ru who bought such cases from aukro.ua, seem quite satsified - after all, this is a new perfectly fitting stainless stell case against the old poorly chromed one. 
You can read opinions of satisfied customers here (http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=1086974&highlight=Волна+корпус#post1086974) and here (http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=986934&highlight=Волна+корпус#post986934).

The upper watch from your first post seem a bit problematic. The dial looks like this one









available on aukro (Ð¦Ð¸Ñ„ÐµÑ€Ð±Ð»Ð°Ñ‚ Ð¾Ñ‚ Ñ‡Ð°Ñ�Ð¾Ð² Ð'Ð¾Ñ�Ñ‚Ð¾Ðº ÐŸÑ€ÐµÑ†Ð¸Ð·Ð¸Ð¾Ð½Ð½Ñ‹Ð¹, Ð½Ð¾Ð²Ñ‹Ð¹ (2566662818) - Aukro.ua - ÐºÑ€ÑƒÐ¿Ð½ÐµÐ¹ÑˆÐ¸Ð¹ Ð¸Ð½Ñ‚ÐµÑ€Ð½ÐµÑ‚-Ð°ÑƒÐºÑ†Ð¸Ð¾Ð½ Ð£ÐºÑ€Ð°Ð¸Ð½Ñ‹. Ð'ÐµÐ·Ð¾Ð¿Ð°Ñ�Ð½Ñ‹Ðµ Ð¿Ð¾ÐºÑƒÐ¿ÐºÐ¸ Ð¸ Ð¿Ñ€Ð¾Ð´Ð°Ð¶Ð¸ Ð² Ð¸Ð½Ñ‚ÐµÑ€Ð½Ð). The movement looks like a first-generation Volna, the second hand and the crown also are a replacement, but the hour and minute hands could be original.
Regarding the second watch - the movement has 2809 engraved under the balance, so it certainly is from a VP. The dial and hands also look authentic. I can't say for sure if the left the factory together - I have three VP with this type of dial and all of them have =ЧЧЗ= logo movements - but I think everything is fine.


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## bubba48

Many thanks Storyteller. I've a lot to study and learn about the Russian watches.


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## SrtJunky

Being a proud new owner of a Volna, this thread is a gem!



storyteller said:


> Volna was produced between 1958 and - it seems - 1964, when it was replaced by Vostok-branded watches with white 2809A movement. They never had 'Precision' adjective, because they were not precision class watches. Under the Soviet standards, Volna had an expected daily accuracy of +/- 30 sec. per day, which was lower even than 1st class Poljot movements, let alone the chronometer class (or 'Precision class' in Soviet terminology) VP. Old Volna could be very accurate (I have one with - 6 sec. per day), but they were not supposed to be 'Precision', this is one of the few things I am certain


Noticed this morsel of info, and couldn't help but think it was odd that my Volnas movement is etched "4-57" as its manufacture date.










Is this fourth quarter '57 just sort if close enough as far as your date range?

Also, I think I see another face in this thread that is very similar to my watch... but it's hard to believe that a dial this clean is original.










Is this a re-dial?

Here's the back:



















Thoughts and comments welcome.


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## storyteller

Welcome to 2809 addicts! Your watch is a redial, but the movement is one of the earliest and very rare one, so you are lucky.

The 2809 movements from 1957 are a puzzle for me, that is why I didn't discuss them in this thread. Instead, I tried to systematize my questions here (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html).


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## Topi

Also, the font of the "a" at "_22 камня_" seems to be a bit different from the others. The other early (3-57) watch shown at https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html has a similar font that differs from the fonts shown on the first page of this thread.

Topi


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## fcafca

o| On a Sunday evening in late September, while an old volna (170909542910) with "first generation vp movement" was sold, I was waiting at the store to buy my tobacco :


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## SrtJunky

storyteller said:


> Welcome to 2809 addicts! Your watch is a redial, but the movement is one of the earliest and very rare one, so you are lucky.
> 
> The 2809 movements from 1957 are a puzzle for me, that is why I didn't discuss them in this thread. Instead, I tried to systematize my questions here (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html).


Thanks for the warm welcome! Great to be here.

Well, this news is bitter-sweet. Glad the movement looks to be genuine (and a rare early production!) but sad that it's a re-dial.

Is it at least a "decent" re-dial? I think a saw an original Volna dial that looked to have a similar font and "sun burst" design. I think this dial is gorgeous. That might be all that matters. 

Pretty funny, but I only started learning about and collecting vintage watches about a month ago. No small coincidence, that 3 of the 5 watches I've acquired are Soviet.

There's something about that that has more character, and feeling, to me at least. More mystery. More "unknown" due to where and when they came from.


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## Topi

Well, I think the dial is a remake of an original dial - similar dials have obviously been originally used in Volnas. 

On the other hand, concerning the origin of the dial - well, your guess is as good as mine. I don't think they're new old stock, though, in the sense that a stash of original, unused Soviet-era dials has been found at a distant warehouse.

However, main point is you like the watch. Also, the movement really is a bit on the rare side.

Topi


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## storyteller

Similar dials were offered on aukro.ua a few months ago. They are a remake of the original dial and look quite nice, I think. The same seller offered also Volna dials with waves. 
I think you are lucky, it is a huge sweet candy and only a tiny amount of bitter aftertaste. The movement is really rare and I will gladly exchange any fully original Volna of mine for the movement you got.


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## cestommek

Great Thread comrade.Thanks for sharing your knowledge !

I have one, i have had it 9 years and today runs +6 seconds per day :-d
I guess it's a VIP generation movement, case gold plated and 17 mm lugs:think: the case is in pretty good shape and looks marked "S"U20 in one of the lugs... :think:

regards


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## SrtJunky

Topi said:


> Well, I think the dial is a remake of an original dial - similar dials have obviously been originally used in Volnas.
> 
> On the other hand, concerning the origin of the dial - well, your guess is as good as mine. I don't think they're new old stock, though, in the sense that a stash of original, unused Soviet-era dials has been found at a distant warehouse.
> 
> However, main point is you like the watch. Also, the movement really is a bit on the rare side.
> 
> Topi


I guess it would have been more "up front" if the seller would have told me this... assuming he knew. Oh well. I'll take the rare movement, and very beautiful period correct redial any day.



storyteller said:


> Similar dials were offered on aukro.ua a few months ago. They are a remake of the original dial and look quite nice, I think. The same seller offered also Volna dials with waves.
> I think you are lucky, it is a huge sweet candy and only a tiny amount of bitter aftertaste. The movement is really rare and I will gladly exchange any fully original Volna of mine for the movement you got.


Wow! This movement must be VERY rare for this kind of offer 

What would you say is the number of movements (2809s) total that may have been made in 1957?


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## 103ssv

fcafca said:


> o| On a Sunday evening in late September, while an old volna (170909542910) with "first generation vp movement" was sold, I was waiting at the store to buy my tobacco :
> 
> View attachment 869693
> 
> View attachment 869694


Well, it got a good home. ;-)
Unfortunately it stopped running after a few hours, so I'll have it serviced in the near future.


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## SrtJunky

I've been looking long and hard at all of the pictures in the first post of this thread, reading the info, and trying to compare them, and the info with what I can see in the pictures of the 2809 in my Volna. 

What gets me, is that the VP movement mentioned and pictured is described as a higher grade/quality movement than the Volna 2809 movements. 

Looking as closely as I can, I cannot seem to see any difference in perceived quality between the VP 2809, and the 2809 in the Volna on the way to me as I write this (minus the slight font difference, I guess). 

The etchings on my Volna’s 2809 seem to be of equal quality. The movement’s parts all seem very well fit. So, I guess my question is, what about these “lower grade” Volna 2809s that were made in parallel, was less quality? Maybe the very early 2809 movements (4th quarter ’57) in Volnas got the VP 2809s? 

Maybe not ... 

Sorry for the rambling. Just passing the time until my 2809 gets here.


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## AID

SrtJunky said:


> ... What gets me, is that the VP movement mentioned and pictured is described as a higher grade/quality movement than the Volna 2809 movements.


I did my own research on this topic a few years ago and also carefully read what other posted since. But until I see some solid proof (like factory documents, or a least a statement from someone who worked at Vostok at the time) I will still maintain that all these movements are the same quality with exception of a balance wheel, or may be even just a hair spring. This does not include a lower grade movements used in Almaz watches of course.


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## emoscambio

fcafca said:


> o| On a Sunday evening in late September, while an old volna (170909542910) with "first generation vp movement" was sold, I was waiting at the store to buy my tobacco :


On ne sort plus le dimanche soir depuis l'apparition de eBay! One does never go out on a Sunday evening since eBay exists.


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## storyteller

What remains clearly established is that VP had - 10 / + 5 allowed daily accuracy, while Volna +/ - 30 sec. This is indicated in Soviet standards from that time.


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## SrtJunky

storyteller said:


> What remains clearly established is that VP had - 10 / + 5 allowed daily accuracy, while Volna +/ - 30 sec. This is indicated in Soviet standards from that time.


So sorry to bring this thread back after long absence. But I do have my beautiful Volna now in my possession. And it is truly a gem. Just beautiful.

It keeps fantastic time. It is only about +10/12 seconds in 24 hours! I'll take that.

Plus, I just bought another watch from the same seller (mid 80's KGB Edition Amphibia!!), and he has agreed to send me two or three ORIGINAL Volna dials with this new watch, free of charge. I'm very excited to see what he sends.


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## amphibic

This is my second generation Vostok Precision with gold plated movement.
It is running with +2.7 second per day!
Still very accurate...


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## SrtJunky

Amphibic, your VP is gorgeous!

I'm glad I stumbled upon my early 2809 Volna, and its keeping great time. But I'd love to get a VP version of this movement.


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## AID

I find it amusing how after all the discussions about "daily rate" and "positional error" terms people still claim "my watch runs only within a few seconds per day". But that's ok. I am happy for everyone who has a very reliable and accurate watches. After all these Volna and VP watches are real special indeed ))))


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## schnurrp

I agree, AID. There's some chance involved I would think when it comes to the daily accuracy of any mechanical watch although I must say a properly running 2809 is a very solid machine. But come on, amphibic, 2.7 seconds! How did you measure that?


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## AID

Yes, that's what I mean. I have 135 years Buhre that I recently restored that runs a average about +10 to +12 seconds per day. Does it mean that it's more acurate than most VP and as accurate as most current production Swiss watches? Of course not! It has over a minute of positional error. But I was able to adjusted to about -30 seconds dial up and about - 40 seconds dial down and about +30 seconds crown down and about +40 seconds crown to the side and on average I have almost a chronometer )))

But, I am not being sarcastic when I say that I am happy for the people who make statements about accuracy of their vintage watches. I am truly happy if they are happy. But for myself I know that in my watch-box there is no example of a watch that actually runs within 2.7 seconds per day by COSC standards. I guess knowledge is not always a good thing.


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## OhDark30

Here's mine: a first gen dial with 2nd gen movement and hands






















At the top of the dial is Г Ч З(?) ЧИСТОПОЛЬ








It seems pretty accurate - under 10s a day on the wrist - but LOUD!

Thanks for the sharing of all your expertise - this is why I love old Russian watches


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## amphibic

I measured its accuracy with chronometer of my iphone. 
I started the chronometer when the watch showed 12 o'clock and after 24 hours, I stopped it when the watch showed 12 again.
The chronometer showed 23:59:57:3
That's it.

I was wearing the watch while I test it.

Is there any wrong?


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## Oliverb

AID said:


> I find it amusing how after all the discussions about "daily rate" and "positional error" terms people still claim "my watch runs only within a few seconds per day". But that's ok. I am happy for everyone who has a very reliable and accurate watches. After all these Volna and VP watches are real special indeed ))))


Got you all beat! ZERO seconds/day gain or loss. Junghans Atomic. Not Russian but close by - Germany. :-d


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## Dront

I was hunting it for years . A very sly trophy . Got it at last ! Welcome, Vostok 2803! And jubilee edition moreover!





This edition is dedicated to 40-th anniversary of the Tatar Autonomous Republic within the USSR .


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## pmwas

Now you've made me sad, man... I've been hunting for years as well and... these are impossible to get . Oh' I'd like one very much... 

Why is ther no 'dislike' button anyway???


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## Dront

Oh,I am so sorry! I have some more shocking items to show, but should I stop ?


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## storyteller

A great find, CONGRATULATIONS!

And one of the greatest Soviet watch puzzles for me. You might be interested to read Chascomm's analysis here: (https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380-post5348896.html#post5348896) which makes the mystery even deeper.

Congratulations again!


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## pmwas

Dront said:


> Oh,I am so sorry! I have some more shocking items to show, but should I stop ?


No, go on please... unless you have a GosChasZavod type II III or IV it won't get any worse than 2803... The rest - I can live without


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## Dront

pmwas said:


> GosChasZavod type II III or IV


GChZ type II,III, you said ... I`d better stop for your mental health.;-)


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## Dront

I should correct this post : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/three-generations-vostok-precision-740114-4.html#post6574055 . It is not a Vostok 2803 , but 2802 with replaced balance bridge from 2809 . The mechanism have no incabloc bouchon at dial side.



This is bad news. But I have good news too !





One more Jubilee 2802, with proper bouchon now and gold platted marks !

P.S. Sorry for phone shots.


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## pmwas

Dront, are you producing these  ? Howcome you can find two of them, when a dozen of us just on Polish forums are looking for them and noone has found even a single plate :*(...


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## Dront

Just a lack. Sometime it happens.


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## asingh1977

A nice and informative thread.


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## pmwas

Dront said:


> Just a lack. Sometime it happens.


I'd like some luck searching for a type 2... Again - no luck so far. Luckily I got a decent Type I to cheer me up. Back to the gold plated markings, I think they used to be black... I always wanted to have a decent K28 with the famous red markings, but when I finally got a very nice, mvery early Precision Class from 1959:










it had black painted markings. I wanted to wear it occasionally, I found a much, much better case (not top, but you don't want to know how bad it was - I wonder how could the dial survive in such good condition!), and I had it serviced. It returned like this:










nice, brassy, sluightly reddish markings! The paint on K28 was apparently not too resistant to cleaning solutions and it simply disappeared 

Of coures, I don't say there were no gold-marked pieces, but many seem to be just paintless


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## Dront

Actually this 2802 has rather red marks than gold. It depends of illumination angle.


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## michele

Bumping this old thread to post this question:

*What's the final year of production for Vostok 2809/2809A?* Years '70s?

I need to date one piece with enough precision.


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## S.H.

Probably after 1971 : I have a Vostok "Precision Class" with paper, stamped 12 07 1971. Movement 2209 n°73858, gold plated.


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## michele

S.H. said:


> Probably after 1971 : I have a Vostok "Precision Class" with paper, stamped 12 07 1971. Movement 2209 n°73858, gold plated.


The Vostok that i have under my eye is marked 1979...i don't think serial number would be helpful, since it was not applied in chronological order (as far as i know).

Maybe some stock watches were still available (albeit not produced) in 1979?


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## S.H.

Possible : I do not know if the date on the paper is the actual production date, or only the date when the watch got out of the factory into the distribution network...
1979 seems very late indeed for a 2809. Any picture of it?


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## storyteller

Andrej Krukovich, moderator of the main Russian-language watch forum and old school watchmaker mentions 1973 as the end of production for 2809 movement. His source are contemporary lists of replacement movements and spare parts, so I think the info is quite reliable.

http://forum.watch.ru/showthread.php?p=206182#post206182

But when the last watch with this movement left the factory - I have no idea whatsoever


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## amphibic

a second generation Vostok Precision from my collection:
(still in chronometer limits)


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## Gustilik

Hello! I.m new to this forum and i arrived here in searching for more information about russian watches. So, in my first post i would like to ask a question about a Volna watch wich seems to have a golden 2809 movement. As far as i read about identifing a precise 2809 movement, this seems to be one of them, besides the fact that is found in a Volna case, as you can see in the photos bellow. Is it the ONE?Thank you!


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## Neruda

Gustilik - so far as I can see it looks good. However, it does appear to be quite a curious export version which I haven't seen before. The movement is marked 22 Jewels but the dial is marked 22 Rubis, so perhaps destined for the French market?


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## Gustilik

Thank you for the answer Neruda. 22 rubis on the dial, 22 jewels on the movement and the chirilic name Volna on the dial. It.s probablly what i would call globalisation.  Happy to know that this might be a Vostok precise movement. Any other oppinions? I.m about to buy this watch and a certain answer would help my a lot.


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## bpmurray

Gustilik said:


> Hello! I.m new to this forum and i arrived here in searching for more information about russian watches. So, in my first post i would like to ask a question about a Volna watch wich seems to have a golden 2809 movement. As far as i read about identifing a precise 2809 movement, this seems to be one of them, besides the fact that is found in a Volna case, as you can see in the photos bellow. Is it the ONE?Thank you!


I don't think that is legitimate. Every Volna I have ever seen has lugs blended into the case:









Also, I'm almost certain that those hands are not correct for a Volna.

Finally, it's a general rule that Cyrillic/Latin are never intermixed on a dial, which sets off immediate alarm bells.

I'd wait for someone more knowledgeable to chime in, but I think this is wrong and would advise you to steer clear.


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## schnurrp

bpmurray said:


> I don't think that is legitimate. Every Volna I have ever seen has lugs blended into the case:
> 
> View attachment 12594191
> 
> 
> Also, I'm almost certain that those hands are not correct for a Volna.
> 
> Finally, it's a general rule that Cyrillic/Latin are never intermixed on a dial, which sets off immediate alarm bells.
> 
> I'd wait for someone more knowledgeable to chime in, but I think this is wrong and would advise you to steer clear.


I agree with you, comrade. That "B" branded movement in the straight lug case with the baton hands was never made with a "Volna" dial like that. Second hand looks like a replacement, replacement, too.


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## Gustilik

Thank you, bpmurray. Besides doubting the case beeing original, what is your oppinion about the movement? Would you say it.s a precise one? About the case i found some photos on a blog, with a Vostok 22 jewels, with 2809 movement, that resembles to the form of the case i posted above.


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## Gustilik

So it might be a franken. I am mostly interested in the movement. For about 25 dollars, i could live with the fact that is a franken, but only if i knew the movement is a precise one.


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## schnurrp

Gustilik said:


> Thank you, bpmurray. Besides doubting the case beeing original, what is your oppinion about the movement? Would you say it.s a precise one? About the case i found some photos on a blog, with a Vostok 22 jewels, with 2809 movement, that resembles to the form of the case i posted above.


That one appears to be legit except, perhaps, the second hand is replaced.

Probably should have this second hand:


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## bpmurray

Gustilik said:


> So it might be a franken. I am mostly interested in the movement. For about 25 dollars, i could live with the fact that is a franken, but only if i knew the movement is a precise one.


The Vostok 2809 movement is engineered to be precise (chronometer grade), but not all 2809's are created equal. The condition of the movement will be the most significant factor in determining its precision. My most accurate watch is a Gostrest Tochmeh from the 1920's that was lovingly maintained and serviced regularly. If all you want is precision, get a watch with a radio link to the atomic clock signal like the Citizen series. Or any gas station quartz watch will far exceed the accuracy of any Vostok 2809.


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## Gustilik

I might have said that i want an accurate mechanical/automatic movement. I own two watches with quartz. Sorry for not beeing precise.


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## bpmurray

Gustilik said:


> I might have said that i want an accurate mechanical/automatic movement. I own two watches with quartz. Sorry for not beeing precise.


No problem. Vostok Precision is certainly engineered to be the most precise among Soviet watches. I would highly recommend waiting for an authentic one in good, original condition to pop up. If you really are hoping for COSC Chronometer specifications (-4/+6s / day on average), you will almost certainly need to have it professionally serviced and regulated. Even then, there is no guarantee of getting it to that level, as any Vostok Precision you are able to find will be at least 30+ years old. In short, for vintage watches, the condition of ANY movement outweighs almost any other factors in determining accuracy and precision.

Personally, I don't find myself needing a watch with that level of accuracy, a minute or two per day out of sync is fine as I will re-set it the next morning. If I need incredibly accurate timing, I use my cell phone. However, if you are certain that what you want is incredibly accurate timing in a mechanical/auto watch, the Seiko Spring Drive is the best there is, although that is electrically regulated. Beyond that is past my level of expertise, but I think most chronometer-grade mechanical movements are found in watches that are $500+ made in Switzerland or Japan.


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## Neruda

When the 2809 movement came out (in the late 1950s), the best regulated versions were classed as chronometers - very accurate! However the movement was used in several Chistopol brands including the Almaz and the Volna, apparently only the Vostok Precision received this chronometer status. There seems to be an inconclusive debate whether the Almaz and Volnas were really any less accurate. Later in the 1960s there were two variations, 2809A and 2809B, which didn't have the chronometer designation.

Regarding your first watch, there are versions with similar hands. But, I'm not sure these are authentic or not. For example:







The lug arrangement does seem more like the later Vostok Precision Class. However, if (and a big if!) this was a small run for export, I guess it's not an impossible combination. You'd probably never prove it definitively one way or the other unless you found another example with impeccable provenance! If it was cheap I might take a chance, others with more demanding criteria might well pass.

However, any mechanical watch which is 50 years old is something of a gamble in terms of time-keeping. A loss or gain of five minutes per day wouldn't be impossible or unreasonable. A thorough service would help, but it's not always easy or cheap to find someone to do this. If accuracy is your prime consideration, I would look at a new watch. You might take a look at the Vostok Partner range, for example.


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## Gustilik

Is it me, or the two jewels near the two wheels, from the first photos, are missing? I might be wrong though.


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## storyteller

I think the dial is a bit older than the movement. The movement is a precision class, so congratulations, if you bought it. 
Regarding the accuracy of the movements - I agree that everything is a matter of maintenance and a bit of luck now, 60 years after the production. still, the Soviet GOST standard required much higher accuracy from VP than from Volna. As for Almaz, it was a 18 jewels movement, designed as entry level for 2809 line.


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## Gustilik

Thank you all for your answers. Storyteller, i haven.t bought it yet, because as i wrote above, it seems that the two rubbies near the two wheels, are missing. Am i wrong?


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## storyteller

Looks fine to me. The jewels of the last generation 2809 are a bit smaller in general, and those on the photo could be a bit dirty, but otherwise it is fine. It definitely is not a 18 jewels Almaz. 
But frankly, Volna is quite cheap and you can easily find a fully authentic watch, if you want. 
This comes from somebody who began collecting 2809 with paying 700 for a batch of 4 frankens, so i'm not in a position to provide advice.


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## mroatman

Neruda said:


> However, if (and a big if!) this was a small run for export, I guess it's not an impossible combination.


Yes, there was a small run for export, but these fell under the "Raduga" brand name (or rarely "Wolna"), not Bолна. Think about it....an export dial with Cyrillic writing... :think:

View attachment collage.jpg


The watch in question almost certainly has a repainted dial. A mix of Cyrillic and another language (not to mention overall sloppy printing) is a sure sign of a redial.

That combined with the wrong hands, case, and movement mean I, personally, would not buy this watch at any cost.


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## CorneliusT

Hi... if somebody is still reading this: i just buyed a Raduga (Rainbow) USSR watch made for export. Pictures are bellow. Its mine a chronometer version due to how the first "A" is written?? what about the year? thank you


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## mroatman

CorneliusT said:


> Hi... if somebody is still reading this: i just buyed a Raduga (Rainbow) USSR watch made for export. Pictures are bellow. Its mine a chronometer version due to how the first "A" is written?? what about the year? thank you


Very, very nice piece. I believe this particular Raduga export model was intended for Poland -- is that where you got it?

If I'm not mistaken, the movement is 2809A (i.e. non-chronometer).


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## CorneliusT

mroatman said:


> Very, very nice piece. I believe this particular Raduga export model was intended for Poland -- is that where you got it?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the movement is 2809A (i.e. non-chronometer).


It was bought from Sweden.
So i should find somewhere written 2809A? 
I was hoping that the angled "A" in 22 kama will mean that this was a Chronometer version


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## mroatman

CorneliusT said:


> It was bought from Sweden.
> So i should find somewhere written 2809A?
> I was hoping that the angled "A" in 22 kama will mean that this was a Chronometer version


Ah, if it were only that easy. You might enjoy reading this thread as well: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html.

The take home, for me, is that this area of collecting is quite murky and ill-defined. Despite valiant attempts to distill everything into a neat little rule book, we can only get so far before exceptions or "transition periods" throw a wrench into the works. There are some general principles, however, which suggest to me your watch is not a chronometer:

- Movements produced before 1964 had the Chistopol logo (=ЧЧЗ=). (Yours has the Chistopol logo, so your movement was manufactured before 1964.)
- Movements produced after 1960 did not have the quarter and year stamp engraved on the bridge. (Yours does not have a date stamp, so your movement was produced after 1960.)
- Precision-grade movements produced after 1960 should be gold-plated. (Yours is not gilt, so it follows that your movement is not a chronometer.)

At the end of the day, the caliber 2809 (chronometer) and 2809A (non-chronometer) are both extremely accurate movements, both based on the exact same design, and both capable of excellent timekeeping if properly maintained. So that begs the question -- if your watch presently meets COSC standards (or doesn't), does it matter if it originally did (or didn't)?

I could be mistaken on the Poland theory. It's just that most of the "precision" Radugas I've seen (and that's not many) have been in Polish collections. I'm still looking for "mine".... :roll:


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## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> if your watch presently meets COSC standards (or doesn't), does it matter if it originally did (or didn't)?


Personally, as a collector, it's more important to me that the item collected has all its original parts present than whether it works as new. It's pretty rare, I would imagine, to find a 50+ year old watch that still meets the COSC standards, particularly if it was not rated as such originally.


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> It's pretty rare, I would imagine, to find a 50+ year old watch that still meets the COSC standards


That was exactly my point, though I'm not sure I articulated it well. Why worry about whether a watch was originally COSC-certified when it is highly unlikely to be up to spec today? It's just a label, no more.

I'd worry more about present condition, maintenance, and regulation. Even a non-chronometer can keep great time.


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## storyteller

Very interesting watch, why don't you post it on watch.ru for some expert opinion? I don't collect watches anymore and don't keep in my RAM memory all the images of 2809 as I used to, so can't say anything for sure. Still, the movement looks like one of the oldest ones and possibly chronometer class, while I'm a bit suspicious of the caseback. The dial and hands look like earliest genuine Volna.


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## schnurrp

mroatman said:


> Why worry about whether a watch was originally COSC-certified when it is highly unlikely to be up to spec today?


Because if the watch is the type that should have the chronometer-grade movement that was COSC-certified when new I would like to see it there regardless of how it is running now. I would prefer that to one with the incorrect movement running great.


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## CorneliusT

Thank you all for answers! I will post on the russian site also. And it is really more important to know that your watch has not been butchered and that it have not major problems. I hope to post soon pictures with this after revision. I also bought today a twin yellow "Brother" for him  there are some interesting differences on the movement inside...


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## CorneliusT

Hi, again!
Sorry for pictures quality, there are not mine, because the watch its on its way to me right now 

This is another Raduga made for export with same dial and case shape, but with gold applied.
The movement inside is also a 2809, but with the engraved 22 kama superficial this time, with no sharp angle "A" and with a different shockprotection?!
what do you guys think?


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## mroatman

schnurrp said:


> Because if the watch is the type that should have the chronometer-grade movement that was COSC-certified when new I would like to see it there regardless of how it is running now. I would prefer that to one with the incorrect movement running great.


Yes, sorry, I didn't know the authenticity was ever in question. It's my opinion that Cornelius' Raduga is absolutely authentic, right down to the unusual "mushroom" export crown. But I don't believe it ever had a precision movement.

The Soviets exported two versions of the Volna, to my knowledge: 1) the "Wolna", and 2) this Raduga (which later became "Wostok"). Both had identical movements as were found in Volna watches: caliber 2809A. These were excellent movements! But they were *not* chronometer grade.



storyteller said:


> Still, the movement looks like one of the oldest ones and possibly chronometer class, while I'm a bit suspicious of the caseback. The dial and hands look like earliest genuine Volna.


According to your own expert analysis which began this thread, the earliest movements should always be date stamped, no? ;-) Therefore it couldn't be _that_ early. This watch also fits with the known history that the Soviets were rapidly expanding their export offerings beginning in the early 1960s.

I believe the caseback is also correct for an export model. These were not engraved like the domestic models. See two more here, both blank:


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## mroatman

Perhaps it bears repeating that the only Soviet wristwatches ever to achieve COSC certification were Vostok Precisions (caliber 2809).

Volna watches (caliber 2809A) were *not* chronometer grade.
Almaz watches (caliber 2809B) were *not* chronometer grade.


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## storyteller

mroatman said:


> According to your own expert analysis which began this thread, the earliest movements should always be date stamped, no? ;-) Therefore it couldn't be _that_ early. This watch also fits with the known history that the Soviets were rapidly expanding their export offerings beginning in the early 1960s.


Well, I have always happily admitted my own limitations. At least in this field. And regarding the earliest 28xx I have never been sure. The movement seems similar to the oldest ones in style of workmanship and engraving and definitely better than Volna from 1959 on. Was this because it was for export - so better finished than those for domestic market - or because we have a 2809 movement, I can't say. 
As for the lack of date stamped on the bridge - yes, this is unusual for the earliest movements, but don't trust too much the fellow who started this thread. He admits from the very beginning that there are mostly mere coincidences in Soviet watches, no clearly set rules.


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## mroatman

storyteller said:


> As for the lack of date stamped on the bridge - yes, this is unusual for the earliest movements, but don't trust too much the fellow who started this thread. He admits from the very beginning that there are mostly mere coincidences in Soviet watches, no clearly set rules.


Having spent countless hours scrutinizing this topic in detail, I still await fresh evidence which refutes this theory 🧐

But of course, like you say, anything is possible...


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## storyteller

At last I remembered where I have seen a similar movement. Here, of course. precision-vostok2
I'm getting old, sorry.


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## mroatman

storyteller said:


> At last I remembered where I have seen a similar movement. Here, of course. precision-vostok2
> I'm getting old, sorry.


Thanks for that!

So, as suspected, definitely a non-chronometer after all.


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## CorneliusT

storyteller said:


> At last I remembered where I have seen a similar movement. Here, of course. precision-vostok2
> I'm getting old, sorry.


Thank.You!! I ser that the movement and mode of writting are identical, also the serial numbers are very close (6xxx). This means that they are from same era? Pre-1960 or after?


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## storyteller

I think it is post-1960. Still, the engraving is better than usual for Volna from that time, so the movement you have is not common.


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## CorneliusT

storyteller said:


> I think it is post-1960. Still, the engraving is better than usual for Volna from that time, so the movement you have is not common.


Thank You for answering and sharing your knowledge


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## jenya79

Thanks for this... Nice collection.


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## Grant J

Just resurrecting an old thread which I have read many times over the last 18 months or so.

After looking for a bit over a year I have finally acquired a 1957 Volna, so it seemed appropriate to share it here on the very thread that got me looking for an older issue.

The important bit:







A pity about the scratch on the "22" in jewels, but these movements don't turn up often enough to be fussy.
I was also pleased to see the triangular pin.

The dial:







The end of the second hand seems to have broken off (like many).
Worn crown - as expected.

It is probably a Franken, but it will do me.

Moral of the story: Good things come to those who wait.

Thank you so much to all of you for the knowledge accumulated here.
A true inspiration.

Grant


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## Odessa200

Grant J said:


> Just resurrecting an old thread which I have read many times over the last 18 months or so.
> 
> After looking for a bit over a year I have finally acquired a 1957 Volna, so it seemed appropriate to share it here on the very thread that got me looking for an older issue.
> 
> The important bit:
> View attachment 15542457
> 
> A pity about the scratch on the "22" in jewels, but these movements don't turn up often enough to be fussy.
> I was also pleased to see the triangular pin.
> 
> The dial:
> View attachment 15542462
> 
> The end of the second hand seems to have broken off (like many).
> Worn crown - as expected.
> 
> It is probably a Franken, but it will do me.
> 
> Moral of the story: Good things come to those who wait.
> 
> Thank you so much to all of you for the knowledge accumulated here.
> A true inspiration.
> 
> Grant


Congrats. It looks good to me. All is just fine. Including hands.


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## Straight_time

What comrade Odessa200 said. Short seconds hand is correct for this model, it doesn't need to extend beyond the seconds scale.


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## storyteller

A really rare watch. Notice the way how the serial number is stamped - only the earliest movements are like this. Congratulations!


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## Grant J

storyteller said:


> A really rare watch. Notice the way how the serial number is stamped - only the earliest movements are like this. Congratulations!


Thank you. 
I have a few serial numbers in this style. Hopefully one more coming... When/if it arrives I'll post photos. They are from 1958.


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## Grant J

Straight_time said:


> What comrade Odessa200 said. Short seconds hand is correct for this model, it doesn't need to extend beyond the seconds scale.


I see. Yes! I noticed the second scale wasn't on the edge, but didn't put that into the total equation.







I expected a longer hand like the watch on the left, however the seconds scale is at the edge of the dial.
The watch on the right has either a broken hand or the wrong hand/dial combination, correct?
Thank you. I'd never noticed this.
Still learning...

Grant


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## mightymiloquinn

Grant J said:


> I see. Yes! I noticed the second scale wasn't on the edge, but didn't put that into the total equation.
> View attachment 15544193
> 
> I expected a longer hand like the watch on the left, however the seconds scale is at the edge of the dial.
> The watch on the right has either a broken hand or the wrong hand/dial combination, correct?
> Thank you. I'd never noticed this.
> Still learning...
> 
> Grant


The watch on the left has incorrect hands, I can't really speak to the one on the right.


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## Grant J

mightymiloquinn said:


> The watch on the left has incorrect hands, I can't really speak to the one on the right.


Yes, you are right. I was using it as an example and forgot the hands were wrong.
I have a nicer one with what I believe are the correct hands.







This model Volna dial (1958) is my favorite so far, I like the way the numbers catch the light.
Sorry for the confusion.


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## mightymiloquinn

Grant J said:


> Yes, you are right. I was using it as an example and forgot the hands were wrong.
> I have a nicer one with what I believe are the correct hands.
> View attachment 15544679
> 
> This model Volna dial (1958) is my favorite so far, I like the way the numbers catch the light.
> Sorry for the confusion.


I like this version a lot as well. It's very hard to find one in decent condition. For whatever reason, these dials particularly deteriorate around the minute track.


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## Grant J

storyteller said:


> A really rare watch. Notice the way how the serial number is stamped - only the earliest movements are like this. Congratulations!


Yesterday my latest "small serial number" Volna arrived, so I can now share some "research" photos. 5 have small numbers the last is normal, but from Q3 '58 as a comparison.









The serial numbers appear to be not stamped as such, but very nicely engraved.
Sample from Q4 1957 with triangular stud.









Sample from Q1 1958 also with triangular stud.









Sample from Q2 1958 also with triangular stud. A bit dirty but purchased as a complete runner.









Another sample from Q2 1958 also with triangular stud.









Sample from Q3 1958 most likely the triangular stud has been replaced (different clip too). A "franken" watch which I only bought for the small serial number movement.









Another sample from Q3 1958 also with triangular stud but the bigger (normal) serial number.









Not sure what the significance of the smaller number is/was.
Maybe one day we will have an answer, or maybe we are over thinking the whole thing 
Either way the 2809 is a beautiful movement, in any combination.


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## Odessa200

Wowoowowow! Fantastic set!


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## Grant J

Thank you. It has taken a while.
I think I'll ease off buying early small serial number models now that I have a few.
That will leave some for the others to buy


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## Supdany

This is my Vostok Precision, it is very precise. The case, dial, crown, hands are new.


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## Brblesh

2nd generation export dial, with 3rd generation case and movement? Franken or could it have left the factory like that? 2809 stamps seem to be in right places, balance wheel in kinda bad shape...


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## palletwheel

Brblesh said:


> 2nd generation export dial, with 3rd generation case and movement? Franken or could it have left the factory like that? 2809 stamps seem to be in right places, balance wheel in kinda bad shape...
> 
> 
> View attachment 16298402
> View attachment 16298403
> View attachment 16298404


In all of this thread there is no discussion of the parallel chronology of movements with their respective dials. So that's a tough but interesting gap. We rely on the movement chronology and then see what watch types in aggregate they turn up in. I guess that's as good as it can maybe get. This combination would be an outlier. Not that perhaps it _couldn't _happen in the transition to consolidation in 1964-65, but there's a high burden of proof involved. Therefore given the nature of the way dealers make marriages of convenience I would tend to the Franken side of the equation. I would also suggest posting these kind of things in the Franken thread and saving this thread for solid examples or deeper scholarly discussions on open topics.


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## Supdany

Supdany said:


> This is my Vostok Precision it looks to be a late serie, but it is very precise.
> View attachment 16211993
> 
> 
> View attachment 16211994
> 
> 
> View attachment 16211995
> 
> View attachment 16211997


Hi they where comments on my watch. Any feedback on what it is? Thanks


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## Brblesh

palletwheel said:


> In all of this thread there is no discussion of the parallel chronology of movements with their respective dials. So that's a tough but interesting gap. We rely on the movement chronology and then see what watch types in aggregate they turn up in. I guess that's as good as it can maybe get. This combination would be an outlier. Not that perhaps it _couldn't _happen in the transition to consolidation in 1964-65, but there's a high burden of proof involved. Therefore given the nature of the way dealers make marriages of convenience I would tend to the Franken side of the equation. I would also suggest posting these kind of things in the Franken thread and saving this thread for solid examples or deeper scholarly discussions on open topics.


Thank you for the reply, and I apologize if i missed the topic. Actually the original post ends with a comment on dials and movements "a specific type of movement is most often associated with specific dial and case. I can imagine situations that older movements stocked from earlier years, were put in newer cases under newer dials (or vice versa). So consider this post as a beginning of a discussion."
I didn't see much talk about that later, and i thought it might be an interesting question here, considering the one i posted is also an export dial, so i was thinking whether that could also have an impact on the dial-movement "missmatch".
Anyway, i apologize again if i cluttered the thread.


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## Supdany

Supdany said:


> This is my Vostok Precision it looks to be a late serie, but it is very precise.
> View attachment 16211993
> 
> 
> View attachment 16211994
> 
> 
> View attachment 16211995
> 
> View attachment 16211997


I have understood that this Vostok Precision is a fully restored with new manufactured parts, at least, the dial, hands, crown, crystal are new. But what do you think about the movement?


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## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> I have understood that this Vostok Precision is a fully restored with new manufactured parts, at least, the dial, hands, crown, crystal are new. But what do you think about the movement?


what do you mean? These movements are vey hard to fake and they are usually correct.


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## Supdany

I understand that the movement is original. But is it fully original or some parts are not period correct ? and what period is the movement as they are so many variants of the 2809? thanks for your expertise.


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## Odessa200

2802, 2803 : precision 21j with sub second. Appears in 1960 catalog. 
2809: precision 22j. Vostok Precision. Exact production years not known. Approximately 1960s
2809a: non precision 22j. Vostok (made till 1970) Volna (Made till 1973)
2809б: non precision 18j. Almaz (made till 1967)


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