# Certina magic



## Shum

We really need a dedicated Certina thread and a place to share our experience with Certina watches.

I give you the most sought after Certina model there is. Maybe not the most expensive but one of the hardest to find in good condition.








The amagnetic and this one is from 1964 and was only sold as a special model fore those that needed extra protection. These have either 014 or 114 cases and are a little thicker then the 012, 013, 112 and 113 cases.








I had a lot of trouble getting it open and failed with the superglue method as there wasn't enough metal to glue against but I found a old case key that fit perfectly and had a long handle so opened it was. Automatics has this special case back and the manual models only have the toad. The first generation of Certina DS only had a blank caseback though.

No, those scratches are not my doing but others failing to have it opened.








Under the caseback one finds the rubber suspension and a thick inner lid. I had to use a case knife to get the lid off as it was snap fit against the movement holder.








Pure perfection (Certina Caliber 25-651) so I had to take my time when servicing it and after it was done it ran +/- 1 second in six positions so this movement has not run much over the years. Observe one needs to remove the movement holder before one can remove the rotor. Why I say this is because you need to remember to install the rotor before the movement holder and before one puts on the hands as well.








Even the dial is extra thick and goes against the movement holder.

Sorry for the colors in some of the pictures but they were only for me and posting them was only a after thought..


----------



## Giotime

Thank you for showing this. I really enjoy learning about Certina. That a magnetic is very interesting. I now have a virtually NOS Bristol 228 and a DS which needs some work. Is there any trick to removing the suspension? Will it tear easily or is there difficulty in putting it back in? I am trying to replace the crystal.


----------



## Shum

Giotime said:


> Thank you for showing this. I really enjoy learning about Certina. That a magnetic is very interesting. I now have a virtually NOS Bristol 228 and a DS which needs some work. Is there any trick to removing the suspension? Will it tear easily or is there difficulty in putting it back in? I am trying to replace the crystal.


There must have been a special tool once but I have never seen it so one need to do it correct as not to damage the movement holder or rubber supension.








First remove the stem and then insert a screwdriver like on the picture and then bend back a little so the package comes up a bit then insert the screwdriver deeper so you get a more shallow angle then bend back again and do this a few times, the rubber suspension well now start to come up and you can remove the movement from the case.

Do not try to bend around the edge of movement holder as this will only damage it!

To get it back in the case put the movement on a soft plinth and rap the rubber ring around the movement holder then put the case on top then press it down so it starts to grab, then hold tight and turn it over, now you use a hard rounded peace of wood or metal and at the same time as you push down on the rubber ring press it to the sides as well so the rubber will contract as it goes down. You will find it not to hard if you do it in this way.

The crystal to use if you don't have an original is the Sternkreuz ATCT diver crystal. And it should have a diameter of 31.0 mm and nothing else! There are a few wrong suggestions on the net about this so don't follow those.
Divers Chrome Ringed Glass ATCT

*EDIT:* Cousins that sell these crystals have had the wrong sizes in the packages so be sure to buy 1 size larger crystals as well just to be sure.


----------



## bsshog40

That's nice, I like it!


----------



## pithy

Shum said:


> . . . . and failed with the superglue method as there wasn't enough metal to glue against . . .


How many pounds of air pressure did you use?


----------



## Shum

pithy said:


> How many pounds of air pressure did you use?


Air pressure?

Am I missing something here?


----------



## Dan S

Shum said:


> Air pressure?
> 
> Am I missing something here?


I never thought of this, but perhaps @pithy is implying you could use an air impact wrench on the hex nut. It sounds like overkill, so maybe this is a joke, but in principle it would definitely help break the seal to get the threads unstuck. In general, when threads are stuck, it's often more effective to provide a sharp impact than a large amount of steady torque. Personally, I would probably be more tempted to use a long-handled wrench and give it a gentle whack with a mallet. However, if you did try an impact wrench, to avoid damaging the case, you'd need to be careful that the thickness of the nut was more than enough to accommodate the depth of the driver bit.

Sorry to hijack the thread. Please carry on, because I'm still looking to add my first Certina to my collection.


----------



## pithy

Shum said:


> Air pressure? Am I missing something here?


Perhaps.

I am regularly presented the undoable - work that has been abandoned or refused by others.

Engraved backs receive cynoacrylate.

Raised backs get epoxy.

I have a regulator attached directly to my wrench.

With the pressure turned down low I let the socket rattle.

I could break the bond between the nut and back at any time with sufficient torque.

Few threads can refuse this strategy.


----------



## pithy

badbackdan said:


> . . . . However, if you did try an impact wrench, to avoid damaging the case, you'd need to be careful that the thickness of the nut was more than enough to accommodate the depth of the driver bit. . . .


Indeed.

I have leather washers in the socket to dampen the impact.

It's still easy to dimple the caseback on a lightly constructed dress watch if to much pressure is applied.

On severe occasions you can mount the case - with pine blocks between the lugs - in a bench vise.

The added rigidity of this mounting amplifies the positive effects of the repeated small impulses.

I have on rare occasions mounted a watch in a four jaw chuck in a tool room lathe and mounted a key to a tailstock and dogged it off.

Feed was then added to secure the engagement and the drive pulley was used as a lever to effect the breakout.

Chemicals, pyrotechnics, the vagaries of heat and cold shock, etc. having been previously applied few watches can resist this but it can dislodge the odd lug.

A spanner can be engaged and struck with a mallet but this often tears the keying and or twists the lugs.


----------



## Giotime

Shum said:


> There must have been a special tool once but I have never seen it so one need to do it correct as not to damage the movement holder or rubber supension.
> 
> View attachment 13007307
> 
> First remove the stem and then insert a screwdriver like on the picture and then bend back a little so the package comes up a bit then insert the screwdriver deeper so you get a more shallow angle then bend back again and do this a few times, the rubber suspension well now start to come up and you can remove the movement from the case.
> 
> Do not try to bend around the edge of movement holder as this will only damage it!
> 
> To get it back in the case put the movement on a soft plinth and rap the rubber ring around the movement holder then put the case on top then press it down so it starts to grab, then hold tight and turn it over, now you use a hard rounded peace of wood or metal and at the same time as you push down on the rubber ring press it to the sides as well so the rubber will contract as it goes down. You will find it not to hard if you do it in this way.
> 
> The crystal to use if you don't have an original is the Sternkreuz ATCT diver crystal. And it should have a diameter of 31.0 mm and nothing else! There are a few wrong suggestions on the net about this so don't follow those.
> https://www.cousinsuk.com/product/divers-chrome-ringed-glass-atct


Thanks Shum. I did manage to remove my DS movement and change the crystal as per your instructions. All worked great. I had already bought a crystal from someone who said it was original. Paid too much I think $28. Not sure it was an original piece but it did fit perfectly -nice snug press in. One more question if you don't mind... I also have a stem problem. 25-66 movement. Watch will wind but won't set. I notice that my stem is a 2 piece split stem. Is this correct? When I look for a replacement it looks like the 25-66 uses a one piece and not split. Which is correct? And is $20-$25 about the correct price for a stem. Of course I am not even sure if it is a stem issue.


----------



## Shum

Giotime said:


> Thanks Shum. I did manage to remove my DS movement and change the crystal as per your instructions. All worked great. I had already bought a crystal from someone who said it was original. Paid too much I think $28. Not sure it was an original piece but it did fit perfectly -nice snug press in. One more question if you don't mind... I also have a stem problem. 25-66 movement. Watch will wind but won't set. I notice that my stem is a 2 piece split stem. Is this correct? When I look for a replacement it looks like the 25-66 uses a one piece and not split. Which is correct? And is $20-$25 about the correct price for a stem. Of course I am not even sure if it is a stem issue.


If it winds then the stem is as it should be and the problem is in the setting mechanism. All DS-2 have a split stem so this is also correct and these stems are really hard to find so this is why you don't find it on eBay that often.


----------



## KasperDK

Drool drool


----------



## pithy

Certina! Certina!


----------



## debussychopin

i have a Certina DS 1 , it is a dark grey dial w rose gold indices and hands, 39mm. It is a very unassuming watch, at least for me, as most of my watches are on the larger side like 44 (turtle, JR terrascope, etc) but I love it for its refined mature handsomeness. When I look at my arm w it on, it makes it look like an older man's arm (in a good way) and that is much different than putting on my invicta (yes i have one) and it making my arm look like a young punk's arm.


----------



## Dan S

debussychopin said:


> i have a Certina DS 1 , it is a dark grey dial w rose gold indices and hands, 39mm. It is a very unassuming watch, at least for me, as most of my watches are on the larger side like 44 (turtle, JR terrascope, etc) but I love it for its refined mature handsomeness. When I look at my arm w it on, it makes it look like an older man's arm (in a good way) and that is much different than putting on my invicta (yes i have one) and it making my arm look like a young punk's arm.


Photos please.


----------



## georges zaslavsky

a very nice report and a great quality watch, thanks for sharing


----------



## debussychopin

badbackdan said:


> Photos please.


----------



## pithy

debussychopin said:


>


Big boy watch.

We need more CERTINA CONTENT!


----------



## Shum

Modern watches are just a bit to hard cut for my taste but this one sure is much nicer then most other modern watches.


----------



## kazrich

For you Certina junkies, here's John Steeds watch from the 1969 Avengers episode ' Take- over '


----------



## debussychopin

I have a dark brown De Beers oiled calf skin leather band. I was thinking perhaps I will swap the bracelet off my ds1 and put that on instead. Would that dark brown work w the dark grey dial?


----------



## knownothing

Maybe the DS 1 Amagnetic's predecessor?


----------



## Shum

No, but a nice wtach from the 40's.


----------



## DeepBlue1

Not sure if this is the most sought after model but it sure is a rare one and very nice looking!


----------



## Shum

DeepBlue1 said:


> Not sure if this is the most sought after model but it sure is a rare one and very nice looking!


For a die hard collector it probably is as it wasn't really ment for ordenarey consumers but there are some other rare models out there and also more vasluble ones.


----------



## priamo

More magic from Certina. Noticed this on WUS sales. $119.


----------



## Shum

Just wonderful!


----------



## journeyforce

Certina is a off the radar brand for a lot of folks which is very sad as Certina made/still makes attractive watches


My only Certina is a Volvo 50th anniversary Certina Blue Ribbon. It was given to all Volvo employees in 1977 to celebrate Volvo turning 50. I actually bought it back when I had my Volvo 240DL as I was all into Volvo. I just dug it back up and took it over to the watchmaker for servicing.


----------



## priamo

journeyforce said:


> Certina is a off the radar brand for a lot of folks which is very sad as Certina made/still makes attractive watches
> 
> My only Certina is a Volvo 50th anniversary Certina Blue Ribbon. It was given to all Volvo employees in 1977 to celebrate Volvo turning 50. I actually bought it back when I had my Volvo 240DL as I was all into Volvo. I just dug it back up and took it over to the watchmaker for servicing.


Please post photos when you have it back.


----------



## Amadeus

At a well-known watch marketplace on the Internet, I found a nice looking Argonaut - my favourite Certina line.

But something seems to be wrong with the hands, no? No lume from what I can tell. Why were the original hands switched on a watch that does not seem to have been worn much?


----------



## Shum

It was normal that people with bad eyesight would have the hands and hour markers painted or replaced on their watches so they could be seen easier and this seams to have been done to your watch, the secondhand is original at least.


----------



## Amadeus

Thanks for your reply, Shum! I did not buy the watch and will probably not do so. Better to wait for an untouched one (which seems to turn up once in a while).


----------



## Shum

A model range that has been a bit misunderstood is the Club 2000 series. It was sold during the 70's and you can find many different models but many now think it was Certinas budget range and many watches were but some were top of the line so you can find some gems for very little money if you are lucky.

I got these two from a member for free as he didn't really like Club 2000 models and they are in need of some work. I did point out that one was really valuable but he didn't mind. 








Here is a classic budget model and you can see right away if you look at the serial number on the back that it is a cheaper model. The number 623.3442.42 tells us that it has a caliber ETA 2783 movement and 42 at the end is for a chrome case.








25-011 is Certina code for ETA 2783 and this movement is not bad in any way but it is a cheaper movement that can be found in most automatics during the 70's from many manufacturers.








Now this is a top model with a striking dial sold at the same time as the other watch. The serial number 919.3874.41 tells us that inside is a Certina caliber 919-1 and 41 at the end is for a steel case.








And here it is, Certinas last in house movement, the caliber 919-1 and is one of the most sought after movements today and is a step up from the ETA 2783.

They did something special to this model after the horror of the date change mechanism on the caliber 25-651 that is a bit funny and I had a good laugh when I first saw what they had done but this will have to wait. There are also some mistakes made and I'll show these as well but they never had the time to fix them as they stopped making their own movements after this series.


----------



## Amadeus

Thanks for posting these, Shum! Looking forward to the rest of the story. 🙂


----------



## georges zaslavsky

Certina are outstanding quality for money


----------



## sculldogg86

Shum said:


> View attachment 13007239
> 
> 
> .


Best caseback I have seen in a while!


----------



## Shum

sculldogg86 said:


> Best caseback I have seen in a while!


Don't know if you can call it that but it's just as thick as one.


----------



## KasperDK

Not sure if it qualifies as magic but got this one today at fleamarket, in a moment of weakness I didn't haggle but paid 50dkk /8usd

Measures 30mm across but wears bigger er due to the shape.

Cal. 25-36 20 micron plate 
Serial number: 6338340 should mean from 1965.


----------



## Dan S

One of the most striking examples I have seen, unfortunately only 30mm. I posted this in another thread for a woman who was looking at mid-size watches, but if the moderators don't mind, I wanted to add it here as well, since this thread may serve as a Certina archive. Unfortunately, no movement shot.


----------



## Shum

The EA branding was what I understand for the US market only but sometimes they show up here in Europe. The serial number dates it to ca 1949.


----------



## busmatt

Here's an interesting one on eBay

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/282927266457



















Ceramic case

Matt

Brought to you by HYPNOTOAD


----------



## Shum

Nice watch to own so buy it!


----------



## Shum

I have been working on a Certina DS-2 Super PH1000 for some time now.








Here is how the case looked when I got it.








On this model there is a glass/bezel ring one need to snap off before one get's to the mechanics then a screw on locking ring. And boy was it dirty!








There are 4 small cylinders with a spring in each that when you press down on the bezel unlocks the mechanism so the bezel rotates freely with very little friction.








Next comes the ring that actually is connected to the bezel that rotates on top of the springs.








On top of that ring comes a locking ring that locks into the case so the ring is fixed and intern goes against the rotating ring so you get the notched effect when one turns the bezel.








Then the crystal with a O-ring goes inside the case and the screw on cap fixes everything into place.








And here is the watch all ready with the crystal polished and the caliber 25-651 serviced. The hands are a bit vandalized but everything has that wonderful worn look so it's perfect like this.


----------



## TallWatch

Hi Shum, great reading and learning from your post. I really respect you can do your own repairs !


----------



## probep

My vintage Certina 5101, mid-1960s, cal 25-36.


----------



## Shum

Certina made a series of watches named New Art and some of these are really nice.








This is a dress watch from 1964 in a Monocoque steel case so the movement needs to come out by first removing the crystal.








The case is worn but then I only buy junk so that is generally what I get. Inside is a automatic caliber 25-651 and if you have followed this thread you'd know it's the same movement like I the other watches I have shown.








The crown is a replacement and without the Certina logo it's just not right.








New crown and looks much better.

The reason I got the watch cheap ($25) was that the crown was not original and was lose, there is also a small scratch on the dial. People just don't understand that these watches have a split stem and because the stem was lose the movement had rotated a tiny bit so the outer stem would not attach to the inner part but this was easy to fix and it snapped in place with a new crown.

I could stop here and resell the watch for $50 but that's not fun so I'll service the movement and clean the case and then sell it on.


----------



## Shum

The next magic watch is this Certina DS diver.








It is in a rather ruff shape but then these watches were made for the outdoors and many were actually used as intended.








Classic automatic case back.








Always check for the Certina logo on the crown.








A wonderful caliber 25-65 and one would think the inside would match the outside but remember this is a DS and back in the day this meant it could take a beating.

One can see this is an early DS diver as it doesn't have a PH rating on the dial and they changed this around 1965. There is a sound coming from the balance and something is touching and could just be dirt bur we will see later.


----------



## Amadeus

I have a fondness for late 60s/early 70s watches, and espescially the brand Certina

For the last 20 years, I have been wearing an Argonaut 280 most days of the week. Here it is alongside the ladies version (which my wife doesn't appear to wear that much, but that's another story







) and then another, NOS 280, an earlier Argounaut without a number, the Chrono, a DS-2 and a DS Junior.

I have better close-up shots of the watches, but the forum software somehow displays them 90 degrees off even though I have rotated them before saving. Will try to find out how to do it right.

View attachment DSC_0684.JPG


----------



## Shum

I prefer the Argonaut 280 and Waterking 215 myself and the DS Junior is also A watch I really like.

The Junior has it's own unique problem though. 
https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/certina-horror-story-1790698.html


----------



## kinaed

Unfortunately, my only Certina is a ~15(?) year old DS Pilot:















I need to start looking for some vintage pieces...

-k


----------



## Shum

Now the DS diver is disassembled.








Here one can see the main fault of the watch movement and if you look to the right you can see the setting lever spring arm has broken off so the crown doesn't have the click when you pull it out and it won't sty out when you try to set the time.








Here you can see the difference between a caliber 25-65 and a caliber 25-651. They made the movement thicker to incorporate the date mechanism on the caliber 25-651 and by doing so they also use higher versions of the Centre second wheel, cannon pinion and hour wheel. On the Caliber 25-652 they put an extra plate with the week day mechanisms on top of this so a third height of these components were used.

I show this because it's easy to understand which parts are used for the different movements if you know the difference between them. Also to know to stay away from the caliber 25-652 if you are like myself a amateur as these movements and parts are very hard to source.

Also note that on the movement on the right the date disc is curved as to give space to the curved dial and that on more modern watches with flat dials a flat disk is used and that you can't move these discs between these watches.

A tip is that do not use a more modern caliber 25-651 (3 spoke balance wheel) to repair an older version as there are some other very small differences to some parts and won't work that well.


----------



## TallWatch

Thanks SHum, nice read and good pictures. I ams till on the hunt for a ds ph200 with the sword hands. Hope i dont have to buy the new version later this year ;-)


----------



## Sansoni7

Great thread.
I am a Certina fan too.
Here it is one of mine...


----------



## Shum

And here it is all ready to go home. Nothing to do about the bezel but the watch looks really nice now. Notice the hour hand and how it points up at the end and this is so it will pass over the Certina logo and the same with the minute hand but for the hour markers. There are some marks round the edges on the crystal but I like it this way as it matches the worn look of the watch.


----------



## yorknobby

A pair of Town and Countries









Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## georges zaslavsky

yorknobby said:


> A pair of Town and Countries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Two lovely examples


----------



## jsaen

Here’s my only Certina. I plan to add more soonish.


----------



## Shum

My favorite model is the Waterking 210/215 (1968-1971) or rather a model with a specific dial.








The watch on the left is an odd construction. What is wrong you might ask and the answer is that someone has replaced the hands from a different model and as it happens I had the right dial as seen on the right and was looking for the hands for it, and this is the model I love the most.

It has a good crown but the crystal is not the right one and the case is a bit better so A dial transplant is in order.








The movement is very nice and never touched, one can see that the movement has been taken out as there are marks on the holder screws. The caliber is a manual 25-661.


----------



## Shum

And here it is all ready for the streets.

Well it turned out that the hands wasn't for this model (almost) but for a similar dialed DS-2 but I'll keep in like this for now.


----------



## Shum

Here we have an earlier Certina.








It is water damaged but you don't redial a dial until it's really bad as it removes much of the history of the watch Also this look grows on you the more you work on vintage watches and I myself just love it.








These early automatics had a smaller crown and it was partly tucked into the case so they are hard to manually wind. Later they removed this design as most like to wind their automatics.








The movement is a caliber 25-45 and it's so hard to find part for it so you try to use what's already there. Here you see some water damage to the rotor but it's only cosmetic.


----------



## Shum

I founds an unused strap from the same period and put it on.








It shows it's age but then so does the watch. I found it on an old Omega from the 50's that had been in storage with a watchmaker for many many years.








You can see the quality of the leather better here and I also put on a Certina buckle from the same period.


----------



## Giotime

I was hoping for some help with this DS-2 that I picked up at a rummage sale recently. Seems clean and is running. But the stem is not engaged. It pulls out from the movement. It is a split stem. First, is the stem release done by push button? I can't seem to engage the stem by pushing what seems to be the push button. Then I thought maybe the stem was faulty so I began looking to find a replacement to try that. But as I researched it looks like the stem should be a one piece type? Does this 25-66 take a split stem or one piece? Appreciate any help or advice as to where I go from here. (Other than my watchmaker - was hoping this could be a do it yourselfer). Thanks


----------



## Shum

Nice watch!

A split stem is correct but what has happened is that the button has been pushed down to deep and got stuck so the stem can't lock anymore so the movement needs to be taken out and the hands and dial come off to get at the setting mechanism.


----------



## Amadeus

I inherited this watch from my father who passed away a year ago. He was not one who replaced things that were still working, and he went through only three watches during his lifetime.

He recieved this Certina as a gift in 1955 (serial no. starts with 178, so probably manufactured in the early 50s) and it was his only watch until the mid 70s when he got himself a Citizen Crystron. The Certina still runs very well, but is probably in need of a service as it is a bit hard to wind. I have had it running for a week, and the accuracy was within +10 seconds a day.

I recall that the crown was replaced during a service at some point and that the original crown was somewhat smaller. What would an original crown for this model look like?


----------



## Olciakk

A little magic I just found in my inbox 
Lady Certina DS from 1969


----------



## Penduyboy

I also have few Certina in my collection. I love this vintage piece


----------



## Amadeus

Today wearing my Argonaut Chrono.


----------



## Olciakk

My next nice find. A petite solid gold Certina in original box 
It's a shame it's only 9ct gold though. I wondered it could be 18ct, like I have found in a catalogue. But it still is a great purchase


----------



## mmmmnnnnnnnacho

just got this one ...


----------



## mmmmnnnnnnnacho

& another post of the mechanism


----------



## Hessu

Resently a watch model Certina "Black Knight" has surfaced (mainly by this Wrist Chronology), Vintage Certinas do not have any specific knowledge about the model. So what do you think guys, is it a somekind of a con or simply has somebody given a name for watch and tells it's rare and wanted one? At least here in link the asking price for this Certina DS Automatic is plain outrageous!

The seller Wristchronology tells it's early version of DS Automatic. No, it's not early version. Early versions 1959 did have 25-45 movement and did not yet have turtle at the back. Also DS model is not a diver's watch, Certina did have specific models for that.

https://www.wristchronology.com/vintage-ure/certina-ds-early-diver-cross-dial-automatic-anno-1960/


----------



## Liizio

Hessu said:


> Resently a watch model Certina "Black Knight" has surfaced (mainly by this Wrist Chronology), Vintage Certinas do not have any specific knowledge about the model. So what do you think guys, is it a somekind of a con or simply has somebody given a name for watch and tells it's rare and wanted one? At least here in link the asking price for this Certina DS Automatic is plain outrageous!
> 
> The seller Wristchronology tells it's early version of DS Automatic. No, it's not early version. Early versions 1959 did have 25-45 movement and did not yet have turtle at the back. Also DS model is not a diver's watch, Certina did have specific models for that.
> 
> https://www.wristchronology.com/vintage-ure/certina-ds-early-diver-cross-dial-automatic-anno-1960/


I also came across this so-called "black knight". It's an attractive and uncommon dial, but I think the name is something someone just recently came up with to give the watch more appeal by differentiating it from other DS's flooding the market. It's a nice watch, but I can't see why it would be ten times more valuable than a regular DS. So I call shenanigans ;-)


----------



## Shum

Yes, sounds like utter nonsense.

Certina did market some watches differently depending on the market but Black Knight is nothing I have ever come across, but then I mostly only buy watches from the Scandinavian market.


----------



## knownothing

Just finished this one.


----------



## Shum

Labora was only sold in stainless steel here in Sweden but in for example Germany it was almost only sold in chrome.


----------



## knownothing

That's where it came from; Germany


----------



## knownothing

Another one just finished 

This took three years to find all the parts required and the case replated. I love these 40s early 50s Certinas |>


----------



## Shum

Nice work!

Not a run of the mill model that's for sure.


----------



## yorknobby

Looking for some info on this estate find. Would it be from mid 40's?

































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shum

Yes, it's from 1947. If it was sold in Sweden I would have said a bit earlier but it has the US import codes for Certina/Grana and the US market were a few years behind in taste back then. The case is made of stainless steel and the dial is in rather nice condition. The movement is a K.F 414 and has some rust but looks not too bad and rusted parts can be replaced if one wants (the regulator needs to be replaced). Someone has stolen the jewel and Incabloc spring for the balance but easy to fix. Looking at the screw heads, they are in very good condition so it's almost untouched (at least not by a heavy hand).

It has had a metal bracelet that has worn two of the lugs a little, so if you want to use this watch in the future do not put one of these on!


----------



## yorknobby

Thanks for that Shum. It is currently not running, think it has a broken main spring as will not wind up, and the balance is not moving freely. Think I will try to find a donor. 
What is the US import code on it ?


----------



## Shum

The code is on the balance cock and is "VOB" for Certina.

The 414 shares parts with the 410 and 411.


----------



## Olciakk

Did you know that there was a camera called Certina? This is a different Certina though, a vintage brand from Germany, but still I thought I have to have it. Maybe I will try to use it some day


----------



## Shum

That was new to me.


----------



## Olciakk

Shum said:


> That was new to me.


It's a great feeling to be able to teach you a little something after so much precious knowledge about Certina I have gained thanks to your research


----------



## Shum

Olciakk said:


> It's a great feeling to be able to teach you a little something after so much precious knowledge about Certina I have gained thanks to your research


You are welcome!

I was hoping to do more investigation like what crystal sizes different models use but I got very sick last year and now I'm just trying to hang on.


----------



## Olciakk

Shum said:


> You are welcome!
> 
> I was hoping to do more investigation like what crystal sizes different models use but I got very sick last year and now I'm just trying to hang on.


I hope you will get healthy soon. The world needs people like you 

If my 20pcs collection of woman's Certinas can be any help I will make any measures you would need. I really appreciate your work.


----------



## Half Dozen

New to the Certina club: DS First Day-Date C014.407.16.031.00
Specs are: 200M WR, 40mm wide, 50mm L2L:


----------



## Shum

I'm not sure a modern DS cuts it here.

No chance you will buy a 60s DS, DS-2 or a DS 2 - 4 from the 70s or DS-5 from the early 80s? Or a relaunch model from the mid 80s?

What I'm trying to say is that there are plenty of vintage DS models out there just for you.


----------



## Half Dozen

My apologizes, I think you're right. I had too many tabs open and posted in the wrong thread, That said, I am glad to be here, planning to buy vintage as soon as I find the right one.


----------



## Shum

I figured as much but fun to see a new face in here. There are Certina watches from $30 quartz up to $4000 divers, so a lot of choice.


----------



## Amadeus

Well, this thread seems like the right place to ask. Does anyone (Shum? ) know around what years Certina moved from radium to tritium lume on the dials, and from tritium to whatever came after that?


----------



## Shum

Amadeus said:


> Well, this thread seems like the right place to ask. Does anyone (Shum? ) know around what years Certina moved from radium to tritium lime on the dials, and from tritium to whatever came after that?


Not really as Certina just didn't print this on the dials, but we know that most brands switched to Tritium when the 50s turn over into the 60s. With some brands you can tell if a specific model is from the 50s or 60s just by looking for the T down at Swiss Made.

So in short, I don't know.


----------



## Amadeus

Thanks anyway, Shum. I have the "T" signs on a couple of dials, though. (Argonauts from late 60s)


----------



## Shum

Yes, later they put the T on the dial but sad to say not during the switch.


----------



## yorknobby

I have just acquired this old Certina pocket watch. 28-10 movement, 10 micron gold case but only a reference number, unfortunately no serial number so difficult to date

































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shum

It's from 1974-1980 but hard to pin down more precise. Certina stopped advertised pocket watches in around 1976 but sold them even into the 80s, then as quartz models.


----------



## yorknobby

2 mid 60's DS's, both 25-651, 2 different case backs. Have not seen the pattered DS back before. Was this a common thing? Serial number on turtle back starts with 552, the one on ds back 585.

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shum

Finished restoring this Certina Argonaut 280 from 1971.









I do like these rugged watches. A few dings on the case but nothing too bad.









Inside you find the base 25-66 caliber.


----------



## Hessu

I bought this Certina 288 Certidate at June. It had damaged hour wheel of which I eventually found from eBay three weeks ago. The movement is very rare 25-682.
288 watches do have a saphire crystal, one of the first ones at 70's.


----------



## Amadeus

Shum said:


> Finished restoring this Certina Argonaut 280 from 1971.
> 
> View attachment 15437469
> 
> I do like these rugged watches. A few dings on the case but nothing too bad.
> 
> View attachment 15437485
> 
> Inside you find the base 25-66 caliber.


Well done! 👌

My favorite Argonaut case and my preferred Certina movement. In my opinion 25-66 is a very reliable and handsome caliber.


----------



## Shum

Hessu said:


> I bought this Certina 288 Certidate at June. It had damaged hour wheel of which I eventually found from eBay three weeks ago. The movement is very rare 25-682.
> 288 watches do have a saphire crystal, one of the first ones at 70's.
> View attachment 15437618
> 
> 
> View attachment 15437623


Very nice!

I agree those special parts for the day/date versions are very hard to find and often a donor is the only way unless one has the patience to wait one out.



Amadeus said:


> Well done! ?
> 
> My favorite Argonaut case and my preferred Certina movement. In my opinion 25-66 is a very reliable and handsome caliber.


Thanks! I picked a 25-66 for this reason and it runs just like new.


----------



## KasperDK

Stumbled over this today, it's from a danish newspaper January 1978.

"Certina LCD quartz, worlds flattest stopwatch"
24 hour display
Liquid crystal constantly shows hours, minutes, seconds and date. Also shows month. Light for night reading. Super stopwatch with 1/100 sec. accuracy splittimes read easily. Steel case with hardened mineralglass and steel bracelet - 1385dkk with band 1285 - 140dkk downpayment, the rest over 9 months.

1385dkk is 220usd in todays rate - Comparatively the newspaper costed 2.25, today it costs 22 (but is obviously sold in much smaller volumes, so you can't really compare that way, but still). It was a front page add on the biggest selling tabloid paper, so in all likelyhood it would have been quite expensive to advertise there (especially since we didn't have advertisement on TV back then).

Been looking for one of these for a while myself, but im too cheap to pay the general going rate


----------



## DC guy

Shum said:


> Finished restoring this Certina Argonaut 280 from 1971.
> 
> View attachment 15437469
> 
> I do like these rugged watches. A few dings on the case but nothing too bad.
> 
> View attachment 15437485
> 
> Inside you find the base 25-66 caliber.





Amadeus said:


> Well done! 👌
> 
> My favorite Argonaut case and my preferred Certina movement. In my opinion 25-66 is a very reliable and handsome caliber.


Agreed! I have this Argonaut 280, which Shum may remember fixing up for me... thanks again, my friend!





  








C55ABA0C-DB51-45B3-8E0B-52DF377C168C.jpeg




__
DC guy


__
Jul 16, 2020


----------



## Shum

That's gorgeous! 37 mm wide and use 20 mm straps. It's like Certina was thinking about the future and what people want now.


----------



## Amadeus

Since we're talking Argonauts, let me share this mid 70s Swedish folder.

I will try to make a very rough translation of the text, as it paints a picture of the type of customer Certina apparently had in mind:

"Youth - it's all speed and action. Full speed off the road or in the discotheque. It is about new colours and shapes. To break with conventions and still think that life is a carefree adventure. It is to be happy and sad, to dress funny when the elderly expect strictness. And to be elegant with a personal taste when you feel like it.

It is great that Argonaut is there when you are young. The Certina for the taste and wallets of young people. And with design and quality, that can hold up to the young lifestyle."

(What's really funny is that in the second picture, it doesn't even look as if the guy's wearing an Argonaut  )


----------



## Shum

Looks like a 288.


----------



## DC guy

Super cool that you had that old material! Thanks for sharing it! It’s really useful to note some of the original dial colors.

I still think Argonaut was an odd choice of name for a watch without serious WR. Jason and the Argonauts were some of the original “Seamasters.”


----------



## Amadeus

Thanks! I can as well share the other Argonaut ads I've got. They are from two catalogs which do not seem to include all variants, but a choice few from every line. The older one is undated, but might be from 1974, the other one is from 1976. I should probably go through the trouble of scanning them in their entirety at some point, but they are tricky to get into the scanner.

The later version of 280 (a bit strange that it didn't get a new number) is advertised as high beat, so I suppose it has the 919-1 movement. But I'm sure Shum would be the one to know.


----------



## Shum

I'm not sure any of these dials were ever released as they are Argonaut 285. Confirmed by the case number 1285. They could exist in some specific region but not here in Sweden.

And indeed they come with the caliber 919-1


----------



## Liizio

Another new old Certina for me, I was given this DS2 as a compensation for a small watch repair job for a friend. Case is hardly in great shape, as is often the case with these, but the green dial looks pristine.

Apparently received as a christmas gift back in '77. I pity the poor jewelry shop worker who had to try and scribble that engraving on the side of the case with his gravograph. I usually kinda like engravings, but I'll strongly consider removing this one.


----------



## laikrodukas

I would leave that. Looks so bad it's actually good


----------



## Shum

Or just replace the case.


----------



## Amadeus

I recently got this late 1940s model with a very nicely preserved dial. Needed a new mainspring, balance and crown but is now ready to wear.


----------



## Shum

Very nice!


----------



## Liizio

Got the DS2 serviced, not the perfect example, but works for me, and runs great.


----------



## yonibliss

Lovely dial


----------



## Onewatchhh

Perfect enough - that's a beauty! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DC guy

Onewatchhh said:


> Perfect enough - that's a beauty!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nah, clearly too many flaws for him to be happy. Ship it to me immediately! ?


----------



## Onewatchhh

DC guy said:


> Nah, clearly too many flaws for him to be happy. Ship it to me immediately!


NO! Me! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## laikrodukas

Well it looks more than great!


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Onewatchhh said:


> NO! Me!


I CLAIM MODERATOR'S RIGHTS!!! 

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Amadeus

Liizio said:


> Got the DS2 serviced, not the perfect example, but works for me, and runs great.
> View attachment 15552904


It looks absolutely superb! That dial is gorgeous.

Mine is even less perfect, but that dial color makes up for anything.


----------



## ObertBarkley

Hey Shum, I've been reading your forms on Certina watches in my research on my own Certina pocketwatch. I see you're the best expert on the subject, I was just wondering if you could help me find the model/year 
of one I received from my Great Grand-Father. If you have any insights I'd be delighted to know, I've had trouble with the serial and reference numbers, thank you very much.


----------



## Shum

ObertBarkley said:


> Hey Shum, I've been reading your forms on Certina watches in my research on my own Certina pocketwatch. I see you're the best expert on the subject, I was just wondering if you could help me find the model/year
> of one I received from my Great Grand-Father. If you have any insights I'd be delighted to know, I've had trouble with the serial and reference numbers, thank you very much.
> View attachment 15554066
> View attachment 15554067
> View attachment 15554069


Hello there!

You have a very nice caliber K.F. 260 pocket watch from 1947 with a 20 micron Gold filled case.

Certina pocket watches are rather rare and I have actually never owned a mechanical one as they always run away in price at actions and because yours has a gold filled case it's a bit above most of them in quality.


----------



## ObertBarkley

I


Shum said:


> Hello there!
> 
> You have a very nice caliber K.F. 260 pocket watch from 1947 with a 20 micron Gold filled case.
> 
> Certina pocket watches are rather rare and I have actually never own a mechanical one as they always run away in price at actions and because yours has a gold filled case it's a bit above most of them in quality.


Thank you for the response, it's great to discover what model it is, I had a feeling it was around that decade but very happy to hear! It's wonderful to know the history, I'd like to thank you again for replying


----------



## Shum

ObertBarkley said:


> I
> 
> Thank you for the response, it's great to discover what model it is, I had a feeling it was around that decade but very happy to hear! It's wonderful to know the history, I'd like to thank you again for replying


Certina is such an underrated brand today but has started to get more and more attention so buy some nice Certina watches for yourself before they go up too much in price.


----------



## Liizio

Many thanks on the comments on the DS2! One question regarding the watch: Do you think the crystal is original? Its kinda angular in look, and has a wide split tension ring, which also goes under the crystal. I tried to draw what I mean.


----------



## TheNightsWatch

Shum said:


> We really need a dedicated Certina thread and a place to share our experience with Certina watches.
> 
> I give you the most sought after Certina model there is. Maybe not the most expensive but one of the hardest to find in good condition.
> 
> View attachment 13007233
> 
> The amagnetic and this one is from 1964 and was only sold as a special model fore those that needed extra protection. These have either 014 or 114 cases and are a little thicker then the 012, 013, 112 and 113 cases.


I know this is random, but that minimal Certina logo is decades ahead of it's time. Up to this point I thought that was a new, modern Certina logo.


----------



## Shum

Liizio said:


> Many thanks on the comments on the DS2! One question regarding the watch: Do you think the crystal is original? Its kinda angular in look, and has a wide split tension ring, which also goes under the crystal. I tried to draw what I mean.
> View attachment 15554308
> View attachment 15554309


Never seen that type of tension ring on Certina crystals myself.



TheNightsWatch said:


> I know this is random, but that minimal Certina logo is decades ahead of it's time. Up to this point I thought that was a new, modern Certina logo.


They went back to the 80s logo a few years ago but the 80s logo is a throwback to ca 1950.


----------



## Onewatchhh

Finally I get to play! I LOVE this watch 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shum

Onewatchhh said:


> Finally I get to play! I LOVE this watch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, we like! 

My favorite DS-2 dial to boot!


----------



## Apestapatas

I only have projects, can I post these on here as well?


----------



## Shum

Apestapatas said:


> I only have projects, can I post these on here as well?


Sure you can, the more the merrier.


----------



## Olciakk

Magic egg


----------



## Shum

Great DS-2! But what's on your arm?


----------



## Olciakk

Shum said:


> Great DS-2! But what's on your arm?


It's not DS-2. It's a ladies DS without a number 

















I'm collecting ladies Certinas


----------



## Shum

Olciakk said:


> It's not DS-2. It's a ladies DS without a number
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm collecting ladies Certinas


Now, that's impressive! It would have been a DS-2 if only Certina had sold the first DS as a ladies version.


----------



## Olciakk

Shum said:


> Now, that's impressive! It would have been a DS-2 if only Certina had sold the first DS as a ladies version.


It's a shame they didn't. I like the look of early DS. It would be awesome to have a solid gold DS but there wasn't a ladies version of it either. On the other hand there are ladies Certinas without any male equivalent, like those little gold cuties.








(Sorry for non-Certinas on the photo)


----------



## Shum

They are so adorable! There are so many to collect and if one keeps to plated watches there are some nice ones in white gold and also solid silver from the early 70s.


----------



## Olciakk

Shum said:


> They are so adorable! There are so many to collect and if one keeps to plated watches there are some nice ones in white gold and also solid silver from the early 70s.


Well in fact these watches are solid gold  Respectively 14k (Certina), 18k (Zodiac) 14k (Roamer), 18k (Certina)
Unfortunately I don't have any silver or white gold plated Certina yet. But I have a half of solid white gold 










Don't know why somebody dumped only the top half to scrap. But someday I may need the movement so here it is, hidden in my collection.

Also I have one Certina that is 40 micron yellow gold plated, which was new to me. I only saw 20 mic plating on Certinas before. Sorry I don't have a stamp photo, it's between the lugs.


----------



## Apestapatas

Shum said:


> Sure you can, the more the merrier.


Thanks! I am a bad picture taker so please forgive me in advanced.
First is a certina 414. The dial is in really bad shape. I have two movements and two cases as some one put dial dots on the dial on the right to make a frankenwatch.









Just a quick note on the dial on the top right. These are now being sold on Taobao in large numbers.









The next one is my favorite. Certina 23-35 water king. When I took it apart half the spring was missing and the hair spring was tangled up. I have a donor 23-35 but some of the fasteners are corroded. This will be my next project.
















The donor movement.









The other is a kf-320 pointer. It took me a long time to finish this one as it had a broken pallet fork pivot and both balance wheel pivots were broken. The donor's balance wheel was wobbly so it was pushing down on the pallet fork and binding. I had to source another pallet fork that wouldn't bind. This was hard as I got perma banned from the bay, I still don't know why and no explanation was given. Now I'm getting 215 amplitude and 1.3 beat error. I think the wobble on the balance wheel and an old main spring are giving me the bad numbers.
The dates on the dial look like they were touched up. The 28 is on there twice, so I may just redial it in the future.

















As I finish the other projects I'll post them up. Thanks for taking a look and it's great to see all the other beautiful Certinas out there.


----------



## Shum

I can tell you that those new looking dials are fake so don't buy them!

The Waterking is a bit odd and must be a special model for the local market so that's a very nice watch. The Pointer date Certina is also special and we didn't get any of these models here in Sweden that I know of.


----------



## Apestapatas

Shum said:


> I can tell you that those new looking dials are fake so don't buy them!
> 
> The Waterking is a bit odd and must be a special model for the local market so that's a very nice watch. The Pointer date Certina is also special and we didn't get any of these models here in Sweden that I know of.


Yes, there are a couple of stores here stamping out these "vintage" dials and second hand sellers installing them and trying to sell the watches at premium prices. You can find some interesting movements sometimes in common looking watches as resellers will try to piece together a franken to make a quick buck.


----------



## Shum

Apestapatas said:


> Yes, there are a couple of stores here stamping out these "vintage" dials and second hand sellers installing them and trying to sell the watches at premium prices. You can find some interesting movements sometimes in common looking watches as resellers will try to piece together a franken to make a quick buck.


As long as you know what you are buying it's not a problem I guess.


----------



## Shum

Here we have a special model made for Volvo in 1977 as a 50th year celebration. I remember this summer as Volvo workers got a Certina watch and their families here in Sweden got to go to Liseberg (our amusement park in Gothenburg) during a wonderful summer day.









The men should all get this Blue Ribbon model with a caliber 25-651M and the women a Mayfair with a caliber 17-351 ladies watch. It didn't turn out this way though as Certina couldn't produce this watch with the Certina caliber 25-651M in the numbers needed, so there was a big lot of watches that look much the same but with the caliber 25-011 (ETA 2783).









On the back you get Volvo 1927-1977 and the 913 stands for 25-651M and on the ETA 2783 version it starts with 623.









Inside you find the 25-651M with a plastic movement holder but this watch is a bit special! You see that there is no text on the rotor and above you see a rotor taking from a scraped Volvo watch and how it should look. The polish patterns don't look the same and could be they made a change here but why use such poor texting?

They must have been forced to take the rotor from the production line without stamping and coloring in the text. It actually had text but I didn't notice this text was water decals, so they floated away when I put all the parts in the cleaner. Now it's extra special with no printing on the movement.

I think it just looks fantastic like this.


----------



## Shum

Today we are going to look at a very special model.









A Coronation Chronométre.









It is a steel watch with a sheet of gold pressed on top "Gold on Steel".









A nice back with the Certina logo. There is a serial number (106214) stamped here as well but very shallow. Observe that this is a special 6-digit number that Certina only put on special model like Gold, Chronographs and Chronometers.









On the inside of the case back you find the referees number 5821.200.









And here we see the caliber 25-651 that Certina put in their finest watched, but this is special in that the same serial number on the back is stamped on the movement as well.


----------



## Olciakk

Wow Shum, where did you find such a rare piece in such a perfect condition? It's stunning! Are you planning to wear it?


----------



## Shum

Thanks. It was a trade in for multiple service jobs and some gold.

I wouldn't dare to wear it! It's just fun to be able to look close at it but I'm no collector, so It's going to a new home one of these days.

To be honest, I'm not sure if I should even service it and just polish the crystal.


----------



## Giotime

I have come upon a Certina Automatic Bumper cal 360. Would this be considered collectible being an early in house movement. Gold filled Bezel has a good bit of wear thru and the dial is kind of tired looking. But it is working and does have a distinctive vintage look. At $100. I passed on it but still thinking about it. Sorry no photo. Thoughts on the 360?


----------



## Shum

Any bumper of any brand is collectable! If it's a USA Certina EA model then even better, so if it looks nice then buy it!


----------



## Shum

Today I'll show 2 DS models that are next on my list to fix up.









On the left is a manual wind and on the right we have an automatic. The automatic does look a bit cloudy because someone has installed some unknown crystal on it so the light breaks in a strange way.









The manual wind models got a plain turtle and the automatic get a bit extra.









On the left we have the caliber 25-661 and on the right the caliber 25-651. The automatics get a bigger movement holder as to protect the rotor.


----------



## cineaste

Which year is your manual DS from?


----------



## Shum

cineaste said:


> Which year is your manual DS from?


The model is from ca 1962 but the watch itself is from 1967. This means the case reference number is 5301.013. and not 5301.113 as one would think. The automatic's reference number is 5801.112.


----------



## Shum

I was going to start on this DS.








At 10 o clock there is a mark but not that big deal right? Turns out it not only a mark it's a dent or rather someone has pulled at the dial so that one of the dial feet has pulled the dial.









Here you see it better. The mark is the dial foot and around it you see the dent.

I was thinking of replacing the dial with this one.








Found this in a junk lot and me, I just love patina like this.

Someone really made this watch suffer as there are other thing wrong as well.


----------



## yorknobby

Here's something a bit different. Certina Quattro from 1983. Released in conjunction with Audi to celebrate the release of the Quattro. Only 1000 produced and initially only released in Germany

































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shum

That sure is different!

The fact that it's a mechanical watch makes all the difference, so a great collector's watch.


----------



## Olciakk

What is the case material? It doesn't look like steel


----------



## yorknobby

The movement is a Valjoux 7750. They used a number of different Valjoux movements in the Chronolympic range.
I believe the case is Titanium coated steel.
There is a story about these on the Vintage Certina website,


----------



## Shum

Here we have the DS with the replacement dial.









I do like some patina.


----------



## Amadeus

This Certina Argonaut ad recently sold at a Swedish online action. What immediately struck me is that the case for the Argonaut 280 to the left appears to have the wrong shape; too wide and without the phased edges. Is this some kind of prototype? Or is the picture just a bit too bright and misleading?


----------



## Shum

Amadeus said:


> This Certina Argonaut ad recently sold at a Swedish online action. What immediately struck me is that the case for the Argonaut 280 to the left appears to have the wrong case; too wide and without the phased edges. Is this some kind of prototype? Or is the picture just a bit too bright and misleading?
> View attachment 16391139
> 
> View attachment 16391153


I have never seen that case but as you say it could be the picture. I have seen an Argonaut 285 ad with the wrong case so it's hard to say. There are a couple of different cases but they differ just slightly. Is there some serial number or case numbers in the ad?


----------



## Steven79

Hello guys,

My name is Istvan from Hungary.I'm new member and vintage Certina fun.
I would like some help.
I have Certina DS.The ref.no.is 854 1410 41
Manual wind,quick date set and second stop.
The quesrion is the case is stainless steel or chrome plated?


----------



## Steven79

Steven79 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> My name is Istvan from Hungary.I'm new member and vintage Certina fun.
> I would like some help.
> I have Certina DS.The ref.no.is 854 1410 41
> Manual wind,quick date set and second stop.
> The quesrion is the case is stainless steel or chrome plated?
> View attachment 16780670


Thank you Shum,

Could you help with the exact definition and approx.value?


----------



## Shum

Steven79 said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> My name is Istvan from Hungary.I'm new member and vintage Certina fun.
> I would like some help.
> I have Certina DS.The ref.no.is 854 1410 41
> Manual wind,quick date set and second stop.
> The quesrion is the case is stainless steel or chrome plated?
> View attachment 16780670


Hello there Istvan.

I'm half Hungarian myself! What you have there is a rarer DS model from 1976-78. It has a stainless steel case and has a caliber 854 inside. It is a bit odd that they launched a DS model when they at the same time sold the DS-4. I think it was done as they were hoping a lot from the new calibers 854 and 919 so wanted a fresh start. It was a bit of a flop though because of quartz becoming cheaper and cheaper.

We are not allowed to give a value but just finding these DS models are hard so they usually go for bit more than the older DS-2.

The dial might look a bit plain in the picture but they are stunning in daylight!


----------



## Steven79

How small the world is.
Now I would have the opportunity to exchange one almost NOS Certina Waterking 215.I prefer the most simply and thinner manual wind Certina's.


----------



## Steven79

I do appologise for the value question.


----------



## Shum

Steven79 said:


> How small the world is.
> Now I would have the opportunity to exchange one almost NOS Certina Waterking 215.I prefer the most simply and thinner manual wind Certina's.


The 215 is my favorite model but it is small so not for everyone. The DS is much more collectable, so will go up more in value in the future. If one comes up fore auction here in Sweden you can bet people will fall over themselves bidding for the DS.


----------



## Steven79

Possible is change the white/silver Waterking 215 dial(without date window) for some bicolor dial with index and marks?


----------



## Shum

Steven79 said:


> Possible is change the white/silver Waterking 215 dial(without date window) for some bicolor dial with index and marks?


I did this on a version with date in this thread so you can do that if you have the dial.


----------



## Steven79

And where to buy the one bicolor dial for the 215?

Anyway: my DS is beautiful just to heavy for me.My another favorite the manual wind Argonaut 280 without date.Just I can't find some nice to my collection.


----------



## Shum

Steven79 said:


> And where to buy the one bicolor dial for the 215?
> 
> Anyway: my DS is beautiful just to heavy for me.My another favorite the manual wind Argonaut 280 without date.Just I can't find some nice to my collection.


That is the problem finding a dial you want. Trying to find a donor watch might be easier. I have a few donors so I'll take a look tomorrow and see what dials they have. The Argonaut 280 is popular so I don't have many of them left but shall take a look at them tomorrow as well.


----------



## Steven79

Thank you very much!
Have good night and see you tomorrow.


----------



## Amadeus

Steven79 said:


> And where to buy the one bicolor dial for the 215?
> 
> Anyway: my DS is beautiful just to heavy for me.My another favorite the manual wind Argonaut 280 without date.Just I can't find some nice to my collection.


The manual Argonaut 280 is definitely a favorite. Such an all-round design that works as well together with a sporty outfit as with a suit. The date window makes the appearance more busy, so for me the no-date version is definitely the preferred one.

My most worn watch since 25 years is a plain, manual 280 with silver dial.


----------



## Steven79

I aggre with you Amadeus.
Not to big,not to heavy,like my DS.The movement is simply,just show the time-perfectly.
Long time ago looking some Argonaut 280 manual wind with white dial.
Nowdays the price is ridiculus expensive.


----------



## Steven79

My another and favorite Certina:

I bought from one swedish girl and I was found the box on swedish auction site.
I really like the case shape.No patina,no scratches.Simply elegant watch.


----------



## Steven79

My Certina mission:

I am looking for someone in Hungary who has it Certina Chronolympic for Hungarian Air Force.I know I have no chance, but it's exciting and challange.


----------



## Amadeus

Here's my Argonaut 280.


----------



## Steven79

Congratulation,is beautiful.
Exactly which I looking for my wrist.


----------



## Shum

I picked these Argonaut 280s from my big Certina junk box. The only none date manual wind I had was the one in gold on the left but the date version on the right is really nice.


----------



## Steven79

_Transplantation.The black dial to the stainless steel case.
I'm just joke.Really nice pieces._


----------



## Shum

Yes, we can transplant it to a steel case, I have 2 but need to see how good they are.









This is what I have in 215.


----------



## Steven79

Sorry,must go to work.After 10pm I will back.


----------



## Steven79

Hello,

My shift is finish.
Shum how can I send private massage?


----------



## Shum

Sent you one.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Click on your icon on the top right (the green one with the big "S"), select "Conversations" and then "Start a Conversation". Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Steven79

Gents,

Thank you!


----------



## Steven79

Blue Ribbon (the Hungarian version)

The international boat race around Lake Balaton, called the Blue Ribbon, recently ended. This was the 54th. The first one was held in 1934. It's true that we don't have a sea, but the lake was also beautiful.


----------



## Steven79

​


Steven79 said:


> Blue Ribbon (the Hungarian version)
> 
> The international boat race around Lake Balaton, called the Blue Ribbon, recently ended. This was the 54th. The first one was held in 1934. It's true that we don't have a sea, but the lake was also beautiful.






Steven79 said:


> Gents,
> 
> Thank you!


My latest Certina:

Manual wind,25-66 movement,beautiful condition.


----------



## Shum

Really nice!


----------



## Steven79

It's not from my favorite decade, but at least it's diverse.


----------



## tigger6

Does anyone know if a 60'd DS is supposed to have only one gasket on the stem or also another one at the crown like a DS-2 has? I cannot find good photos of a DS stem online..


----------



## Shum

tigger6 said:


> Does anyone know if a 60'd DS is supposed to have only one gasket on the stem or also another one at the crown like a DS-2 has? I cannot find good photos of a DS stem online..


The original DS and second generation DS came with a gasket only inside the crown. The last DS generation came with a gasket on the stem and it had the same crown as on the DS-2 so easy to recognize. The first generation DS didn't even come with a split stem.

It can be very tricky to find the right combination stem and crown as also the pipe size changed, so when ever you see a DS make sure to take a close look at the crown so it sits tight to the case.









The first generation side by side with the last (with a second generation dial). You see how the newer crown is a bit bigger and less rounded.









Split stem and a grove for a gasket.


----------



## tigger6

And all of them have a gasket in the crown? I think that one is missing on mine (the stem gasket is there):


----------



## Shum

That is normal as they age and turn into sticky goo and then powder. You can put a new one in but it's hard if you don't remove that little washer inside the crown. They can be hard to remove without bending them and then they won't fit anymore.

Here is a tip on how to remove the washer.








Crown revival: Seiko 6105 and 62MAS crown gasket replacement


It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a Seiko man (or woman) in possession of a good pre-1976 150m divers watch, must be in want of a crown gasket that does not leak.* But let’s face i…




adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com


----------



## tigger6

Shum said:


> That is normal as they age and turn into sticky goo and then powder. You can put a new one in but it's hard if you don't remove that little washer inside the crown. They can be hard to remove without bending them and then they won't fit anymore.
> 
> Here is a tip on how to remove the washer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crown revival: Seiko 6105 and 62MAS crown gasket replacement
> 
> 
> It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a Seiko man (or woman) in possession of a good pre-1976 150m divers watch, must be in want of a crown gasket that does not leak.* But let’s face i…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adventuresinamateurwatchfettling.com


Awesome. Thanks! I'll post photos once it's done. I hope I'll find a good gasket in a bag of small gaskets I ordered off cousins.


----------



## Liizio

A little something I picked off a flea market this weekend. I'm not usually a huge fan of quartz DS's, mainly because they often are snap-cased, almost dress-watch-like things with nothing to do with robust DS's of ole. This one, however, has all the good DS stuff: proper screw-down caseback, rubber antishock ring around the movement, and split stem with double gaskets. It was very dirty when bought, but after cleaning, and polishing the crystal, it looks much more presentable.

In the last photo is the next project, pretty intimidating 44mm beast. Needs at least a new index wheel.


----------



## Shum

Liizio said:


> A little something I picked off a flea market this weekend. I'm not usually a huge fan of quartz DS's, mainly because they often are snap-cased, almost dress-watch-like things with nothing to do with robust DS's of ole. This one, however, has all the good DS stuff: proper screw-down caseback, rubber antishock ring around the movement, and split stem with double gaskets. It was very dirty when bought, but after cleaning, and polishing the crystal, it looks much more presentable.
> 
> In the last photo is the next project, pretty intimidating 44mm beast. Needs at least a new index wheel.
> View attachment 16924924
> View attachment 16924925
> View attachment 16924926
> View attachment 16924927
> View attachment 16924928
> View attachment 16924929


The DS-4 is so stylish! Next was the DS-5 and was the last real DS and can be found with the old logo like these and without, so something fun to try to find.


----------



## tigger6

tigger6 said:


> Awesome. Thanks! I'll post photos once it's done. I hope I'll find a good gasket in a bag of small gaskets I ordered off cousins.


Well, that was dumb. I ordered a pile of gaskets but they are all stem gaskets :/ I'll need to do cousins order #5 for this watch it seems.


----------



## ned-ludd

I was given this last week; it belonged to my recently deceased uncle. It seems to work okay.








I added the strap and gave the crystal a light polish.


----------



## Shum

ned-ludd said:


> I was given this last week; it belonged to my recently deceased uncle. It seems to work okay.
> View attachment 16940221
> 
> I added the strap and gave the crystal a light polish.


If you hold that watch in front of a Certina collector, he would do party tricks for you.


----------



## tigger6

Someone is selling this one. I don't need another one but the dial...


----------



## ned-ludd

Shum said:


> If you hold that watch in front of a Certina collector, he would do party tricks for you.


I don't know when my uncle acquired this but the serial number is 7026xxx. I guess that makes it a 1968 model?
That date makes some sense as he was a very active, senior television journalist at the time and a rugged watch like the DS would have suited him well. I'm confident that he would have bought it new.


----------



## Shum

ned-ludd said:


> I don't know when my uncle acquired this but the serial number is 7026xxx. I guess that makes it a 1968 model?
> That date makes some sense as he was a very active, senior television journalist at the time and a rugged watch like the DS would have suited him well. I'm confident that he would have bought it new.


Must have been one of the last watches of that model as the DS-2 divers were incoming. Keep it safe and out of the water as it's very valuable.


----------



## Scaramanga.

ned-ludd said:


> I was given this last week; it belonged to my recently deceased uncle. It seems to work okay.
> View attachment 16940221
> 
> I added the strap and gave the crystal a light polish.


Congrats! That´s a lovely watch.


----------



## tigger6

Late update on crown gasket for posterity. I thought there wasn't one in but I was wrong, it was just not particularly tight after more than 50 years. I fashioned a hook out of a pin and while trying to fish it out the whole thing popped cleanly out. Much better than the seiko gasket stuffing method though perhaps less reliable. But, the original gasket seems to have a sort of elliptical profile, while it has the same size more or less as my replacement gaskets, it's taller: 








Is this some known gasket type or did it just expand while drying out and cracking? I'm thinking of replacing it with two gaskets instead.


----------



## Shum

tigger6 said:


> Late update on crown gasket for posterity. I thought there wasn't one in but I was wrong, it was just not particularly tight after more than 50 years. I fashioned a hook out of a pin and while trying to fish it out the whole thing popped cleanly out. Much better than the seiko gasket stuffing method though perhaps less reliable. But, the original gasket seems to have a sort of elliptical profile, while it has the same size more or less as my replacement gaskets, it's taller:
> View attachment 16979542
> 
> Is this some known gasket type or did it just expand while drying out and cracking? I'm thinking of replacing it with two gaskets instead.


There were many more shapes and sizes in the old days so we take what we can find.


----------



## tigger6

Not finding anything similar I stuffed it with two correct width o-rings. This seems to be snug buy slide in and out easily. I might think of a way to pressure test it but I'm still waiting for a jewel, I ordered a replacement for one I lost somehow but the package got lost. Cursed jewel!


----------



## Shum

tigger6 said:


> Not finding anything similar I stuffed it with two correct width o-rings. This seems to be snug buy slide in and out easily. I might think of a way to pressure test it but I'm still waiting for a jewel, I ordered a replacement for one I lost somehow but the package got lost. Cursed jewel!


Next best thing is to just buy a donor movement. You find a lot of them here in Sweden as so many gold watches have been scraped over the years.


----------



## tigger6

Shum said:


> Next best thing is to just buy a donor movement. You find a lot of them here in Sweden as so many gold watches have been scraped over the years.


As it's a standard incabloc it only costs like 3gbp for a pair (though, strangely, the price increased to 5gbp once I ordered the second one, thanks to Mrs. Truss likely). But I did find spare part stores in Sweden as you say...


----------



## tigger6

Looks done.


----------



## Liizio

tigger6 said:


> Looks done.
> 
> View attachment 16992693
> 
> 
> View attachment 16992706


That is absolutely beautiful! Rare to see old DS's in such a good condition, they were usually worked to death, at least here.


I actually got the beast working! Still waiting for the new crystal to arrive, I'll post better pictures when it's installed. But very happy to finally wear this thing. It's so big, bulky and awkward, love it to bits!


----------



## tigger6

Liizio said:


> That is absolutely beautiful! Rare to see old DS's in such a good condition, they were usually worked to death, at least here.
> 
> 
> I actually got the beast working! Still waiting for the new crystal to arrive, I'll post better pictures when it's installed. But very happy to finally wear this thing. It's so big, bulky and awkward, love it to bits!
> View attachment 16995672


Yes, the dials seem to be very prone to spotting and this one is flawless. I was actually wondering how hard it would be to buy a $30 basket case and refinish it but probably pretty difficult 

How repairable are those certronics? I nearly bought a amazing dial broken omega f300 but it went over my budget and I really need like 5 fewer watches, not one more.


----------



## Liizio

tigger6 said:


> How repairable are those certronics? I nearly bought a amazing dial broken omega f300 but it went over my budget and I really need like 5 fewer watches, not one more.


I'm certainly no expert on tuning fork watches, but I've always found them very intriguing. I've serviced a couple, a Longines Ultronic and and this DS, and the seem to work nicely now. Longines went smoothly, but this Certina had pretty much all the common problems I've heard swiss tuning forks having:

-The index wheel was stripped.
-Third wheel, with it's built in friction for hand adjustment, was seized. This probably caused the index wheel being stripped when somebody adjusted the hands backwards.
-one coil was broken.
-Plastic day-wheel had damaged tooth. I glued them back together to the best of my ability, and it seems to be holding on for now. Hope it does, because I have no real hope of sourcing an intact finnish day wheel.

So yeah, it's not an easy watch to get running. Parts availability is the biggest problem. I've bought some movements for spares whenever I've got a chance, but it's getting rarer to see them for sale cheap. They are also pretty easy to break, both by users and watchmakers not well versed in them.


----------



## Steven79

Hello Members,

Does anyone know anything about Shum? He doesn't even respond to my messages. I'm starting to worry.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Steven79 said:


> Hello Members,
> 
> Does anyone know anything about Shum? He doesn't even respond to my messages. I'm starting to worry.


Maybe you are on his "Ignore" list. Other than that, maybe he is on holiday (hasn't shown up for a week or so). Just wait a little longer.

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Liizio

Finally got the new crystal, looks much nicer now.


----------



## Steven79

Hartmut Richter said:


> Maybe you are on his "Ignore" list. Other than that, maybe he is on holiday (hasn't shown up for a week or so). Just wait a little longer.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


I don't think so, because he has 2 Certinas for servicing. Now I'm seriously worried.


----------



## Steven79

Hello Guys,

Still no one knows anything about Shum? He is not answering my messages. I hope he is well.


----------



## Shum

Steven79 said:


> Hello Guys,
> 
> Still no one knows anything about Shum? He is not answering my messages. I hope he is well.


Hello, been to hospital but now I'm back. Sent you a PM and your watches are ready.


----------



## Hartmut Richter

Great to see you back, Shum!!! 

Hartmut Richter


----------



## Shum

Hartmut Richter said:


> Great to see you back, Shum!!!
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Thanks! Someone needs to take care of Certina.


----------



## Giotime

Shum said:


> Thanks! Someone needs to take care of Certina.


That’s for Sure-tina! Apologies


----------



## Asmundje

Amadeus said:


> Since we're talking Argonauts, let me share this mid 70s Swedish folder.
> 
> I will try to make a very rough translation of the text, as it paints a picture of the type of customer Certina apparently had in mind:
> 
> "Youth - it's all speed and action. Full speed off the road or in the discotheque. It is about new colours and shapes. To break with conventions and still think that life is a carefree adventure. It is to be happy and sad, to dress funny when the elderly expect strictness. And to be elegant with a personal taste when you feel like it.
> 
> It is great that Argonaut is there when you are young. The Certina for the taste and wallets of young people. And with design and quality, that can hold up to the young lifestyle."
> 
> (What's really funny is that in the second picture, it doesn't even look as if the guy's wearing an Argonaut  )
> 
> View attachment 15445921
> View attachment 15445922
> View attachment 15445923
> View attachment 15445924
> View attachment 15445926
> View attachment 15445927


Hi! I’’m writing an article about these watches. Any chance i can use these images? Please dm me. 👍🏻


----------



## Amadeus

Asmundje said:


> Hi! I’’m writing an article about these watches. Any chance i can use these images? Please dm me. 👍🏻


Message sent. 🙂


----------

