# What The Heck Is A "Franken" Watch?



## Karma (Oct 31, 2009)

HI All,
I have read the word here and on other forums. I have never seen a definition. I suspect I have a Franken Speedy Pro. But I don't really know what is meant by "Franken". It doesn't sound like a compliment.

Thanks, Sparky


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

Karma said:


> HI All,
> I have read the word here and on other forums. I have never seen a definition. I suspect I have a Franken Speedy Pro. But I don't really know what is meant by "Franken". It doesn't sound like a compliment.
> 
> Thanks, Sparky


Why do you suspect you have one if you don't know what it means?

It means the watch is not all original - real original parts mixed with replica or after-market parts in/on it.

Post a pic of your watch and we'll at least tell you what it looks like from the outside or even better if you can post a pic of the movement.


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## S.L (Jul 11, 2008)

Think "Frankenstein".
Something put together of parts not originally destined to belong by it's original maker.

Not necessarily a bad thing IMO but some frown upon it on principle.
I have a 'franken' Speedy myself and love it,










/Stefan


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## S.L (Jul 11, 2008)

TheBluePrince said:


> It means the watch is not all original - real original parts mixed with replica or after-market parts in/on it.


Not necessary replica/after market IMO, it can also mean ALL original parts but in a configuration never released by the OEM.

/Stefan


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

S.L said:


> Not necessary replica/after market IMO, it can also mean ALL original parts but in a configuration never released by the OEM.
> 
> /Stefan


Yes, that too :-!


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## Swiss Precision (Nov 3, 2009)

Not sure where the term was originated, but for many its a derogatory term. 
How boring life would be it we didn't change things up a bit. "Stock" is a term used by many types of enthusiast as a 'starting point'. Could you imagine the bike world (and so many others) if they kept to the way they came from the factory. Franken Harley?!?


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## Karma (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Blue,
Well, its not quite that simple. My Speedy Pro is a Ref. 145.022 manufactured in 1971 with the original Lemania Cal. 861 movement. When I bought it it was completely original except for the hands. How do I know? The tritium lume on the dial was totally used up but the hands glowed nicely. I think the sub-dial hands are original. The replacement hands are the correct style to be original. But the Luminova on the hands is not.

I wanted good lume on the dial so I went web shopping. I found zero dials that were exactly the same as the original dial. Not from Omega, not from Frei, not on eBay, and not from other suppliers others had suggested. Frei did have a beautiful dial that they recommended for my watch (meaning it fit my case and movement and was an Omega product). But it was hybrid dial. It had an applied Omega symbol (looks great; I can see why collectors prefer the applied symbol), no "Professional" designation (it just says Omega Speedmaster) and no tritium lume. The lume designator down by the Swiss Made does not have the double T's. Thus, it is a modern version of the 1965 series of the Speedy which actually did walk on the Moon.

I bought the dial and it is on the watch now. I kept the original dial. The new dial looks wonderful. Only a Speedmaster guru would ever know the dial is not original because it does not match the later case design and the case back. But I know. I'm not sure I care. It was never a true collectors watch which I can only credit to the original Cal. 321 Speedy that did Moon walk. I can say the watch looks new and is beautiful. I also replaced the dented original bezel but the new one is identical to the original.

So, is this a "Franken" watch? If it is, it's all my fault. And I love the result.

Sparky

Edit: Oh, after all this discussion, I should tell you that the new dial's lume glows like a new watch. I sure am glad!! It would have been a bummer if the dial just went dark at night. :-!


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

Thanks for the detailed explanation! Some would say it's "modded", some would say "Franken" i guess. Well done for not caring - i wouldn't either. I'm all for modding watches to make them look like YOU want them to not how Omega or any other manufactuer or bores on a watch forum tell you they should look. The dial does sound like a modern genuine Omega replacement for the older dials; a great find which you did well to pickup. Enjoy! :-!


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## jwalther (Dec 31, 2006)

I think "Franken" is generally used as a perjorative term-meaning a non-original watch being passed off as something it's not. On the other hand, a "Mod" watch generally refers to one altered by the owner without intent to decieve as to its true nature. I would call Stefan's Speedmaster a Mod, and a beautiful one at that :-!.


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## watch-man7777 (Feb 17, 2007)

I think as long as you disclose changes that could possibly effect a potential buyer's decision to buy your watch at the time of sale, fraken, modded, whatever who cares! It's your watch customize it how you want.


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

I don't think franken always means something being passed off as something it's not. Many people build, sell, buy and trade them with full honesty about what they are. But as another recent thread and as S.L pointed out above in this thead after my explanation the meaning is not 100% defined and means different things to different people.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

The 'in the eye of the beholder' point is very true.

For example, take this 30T2SC:










As you can see the balance bridge is not the original; it's appropriate to the 1941/42 movement, with no shock protection, but finished in gold rather than copper. For a perfectionist this would be a Franken and the value of the watch is probably reduced by as much as a third for a watch like this.

On the other hand, here is a total franken:










The case is a JLC one, the dial is from a Timefactors watch and the hands are Swatch, the movement is a Tissot 2824. Total Franken.

However, I had bought the case, with dial, stem crown and hands in the faint hope of finding the correct JLC 352 movement. Several years later, I did. I replaced the movement into the JLC:









far right!

Now, this is the correct movement in the correct case with all the correct parts (yes, even the gold crown). For all I know, the movement came from this very watch in the first place. However, the watch has had two incarnations since I have had it and the likelihood is that the watch and movement didn't come out of the factory together even if there is no indication whatsoever of this. So is the current JLC Master Quartz a franken? I'm not sure. Fortunately I have no intention of selling so it doesn't matter.


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## EL (May 30, 2009)

In addition to the terms "franken" and "mod," you should also include "custom." There are a number of forum members that like to create custom watches with authentic Omega parts. I tend to think of custom as an "eye of the beholder" type modification that one does to a watch for their primary enjoyment and could be reverted back to original spec for resale.

For example, I customized my 2254.50 with a new dial, a new seconds hand and a new bezel. It now bears some resemblance to a PO and uses all Omega parts. Why did I do this? Because I've owned a PO and it was always a little bit thick and heavy to be comfortable on my wrist, yet I really enjoyed its features that had a bit more sparkle to them. The 2254.50 has a thinner case and lighter weight which sits perfectly on my wrist, yet its more simple aesthetics make it a bit more rugged/tool looking than the PO's bling/jewelry look. I wanted the best of both worlds, so I created this watch. I've been wearing it almost non-stop for a month and I'm still loving it.










If I ever decided to sell it, I still have the original parts from the 2254.50 and it could be reverted.

Regards,
Eric


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## Sgian Dubh (Mar 7, 2007)

What the heck is a Franken watch?

A crime against watches.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> What the heck is a Franken watch?
> 
> A crime against watches


.

Bwahahaha










hahaha










How can it be bad when it feels so good?


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## OzO (Aug 27, 2008)

this thread just craves the mighty Omlex


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> this thread just craves the mighty Omlex


Oh if you insist!

Rolex Oyster Case, Omega 601 movement, MkII dial, Omega Dyanamic minute and hour hands, Omega 300 second hand, Grand Seiko Strap. When you want to build your personal perfect hand wind watch you have to go Franken.










When someone unwisely tells you it wouldn't last five minutes in the real world, you have to test it properly!










As used by tombraiders!




























Mind you, I have to confess that El's SMP PO looks even better and is a work of daring genius.


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## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

EL said:


> If I ever decided to sell it, I still have the original parts from the 2254.50 and it could be reverted.
> 
> Regards,
> Eric


Which I believe, also applies to the OP. He did say he kept the original dial, and parts didnt he?. So-While he now has a modified or customized SpM-if the time came that he ever wanted to sell- all he would have to do is tell the "tale" even though its a bit complicated.

So-without getting too semantic about "franken" I'm going to say I think this OPs watch falls into the "exceptions to the franken rules" category. (You know? The 'Official' handbook of rules for Omega Forum terminology. I'm betting one exists-somewhere.). But still-OP (oh-and note to the op-it took me a year to figure out what 'op' stood for and I didn't want to ask-so: OP="original poster{of this thread}" is right about "franken" not sounding much like a "complimentary" term. And I always thought of the term as referring more to the unscrupulous (or less likely: the innocently unaware) seller who sold a watch as "authentic" AND "original" when in fact it was not.

But-even if the op's watch does fit the same description of a watch that could be called a 'franken' he has the story, the parts, and some proof and isnt that what a good collector is looking for? A reasonable explanation for why a watch is not in its original state? [As for effect on value? I couldnt say in a case like this.?] He has some of the orig. parts which is good, I suppose. At least its better than a 'franken' with NO explanation to what happened to it, its original parts, etc. For this reason alone-the fact that he can explain and prove, to an extent, what the history of his watch is-it should have a label less pejorative than 'franken'. Though, beats me what that term would be?

Unless 'franken' isnt always as bad or as demeaning a term as I'm imagining:think:

Perhaps I'm linking it forever to the first time I understood what it meant when the very first "100% original/authentic" SM I won on ebay turned out to be a 'franken'. It was before I signed up here @ WUS and I dont remember the watch site but the forum 'master' was a guy named Zach-who basically savaged the SM:-| along with my 1904 re-cased pocket watch. I resold** the SM 120 on ebay for a small loss because I described it as an "exc.cond. SM refurbished with authentic Omega parts at some time unknown to seller, re-dialed...etc etc" [Note-I did NOT use the term franken back then as I wasn't even sure if it was "real" watch terminology. This was back in 2006 and I stayed away from Omega's(until my WUS join date-an hour afer I bought a near mint 100% -for real-for real-SM1040 and came here to ask what I just bought. And its been a true education ever since.

**As proof of the value of WUS-knowing NOW what I didnt know then I should NEVER have resold that 'franken' SM 120-despite the trashing it got from Zac on whatever that forum was. Even with 'wrong' redial and a supposedly wrong or even non-Omega bezel-It still had the case ref# of some SM (think it was 136.xxx?)and it was pointed out the mediocre re-dial should have had 'automatic' on it because there was an cal. 565 inside.(or maybe it was the wrong cal?) So-like I said-If I'd of kept this 'franken' {which in 2006 were 1/8th the price they go for now} I'd at the least have a perfectly good cal. 565 and the case of a SM to try and build upon. I could have sourced the 'proper' dial BEFORE the prices skyrocketed! PLUS-told the hands were incorrect which was true- they were mint and I could be using them right now in my SpM auto 1140 to replace the worn ones in there now.

SO-to OP-if your really interested in knowledge about Omega-vintage or new-stick around. Its amazing what you can pick up in a year or less.--Now -because I suppose there's no other way to put it but -I tend towards cheapness and remain willing to take chances bidding on vintage ebay Omegas under-say-$400usd -"Frankens' are always an 'issue'.-At least now I know when a watch is likely to have some 'franken' about it. And because of WUS and the 'franken' issue-I have learned to chance it only with watches that are just as likely to be 100% authentic as they may be 'franken'-.[And I guess I am also claiming, in saying this, that there are degrees to 'frankeness'. I like to think the watches I'm gambling on-will only have a part or two replaced and not be a complete and total mish-mosh of parts. So there are 'frankens' and there are FRANKENS'-i submit. Though technically-one could argue its a bit like being a "little bit pregnant" :rodekaart]

So far I've been pleasantly surprised once, Stunned once(totally 100% and in much better cond. than photos) and a 3rd time I got what I expected-no more-no less-a 'mostly' orig. connie with some parts of a cal. 565 in it.

And I still say the real excitment in Omega world is going to be in the vintage market over the next coming few years. With Omegas plan already in implementation to overtake Rolex at best and at least position itself as a strictly luxury only brand for the 'haves only' and no longer the "work-hard and can haves some day". Knowing about 'Frankens' will be absolutely crucial to any serious collector/used buyer and no longer just with pie-pans, upper-end SMs and the like.

Sorry I ranted on and on-but then whats new?

p.s.- While i'm rolling along here- and -we're on forum terms: I still don;t know what it means when posters in the sales f. advertise their watches and then constantly follow the orig. post with: "bump",. Bump, bump bump. What on earth is "BUMP"?:think: (where I come from a price bump is a rise -so that doesnt make much sense.):thanks


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## John_in_MA (Jul 4, 2006)

To the OP this is how I personally define it.

Franken

To replace original parts with non-original parts or parts from another watch of the same model from a simlar era
Used to deceive a buyer

Restored

To replace original parts with parts from another watch of the same model from a similar era or factory fresh pieces
Typically used by people of honest intent when it comes to sell a watch

Modded

To replace original parts for a particular model with original parts designed for a different model
Only uses original manufacturer parts.
No aftermarket pieces

Custom

To replace original parts for a particular model with parts designed for a different model.
A mixture of original manufacturer parts and aftermarket parts

So, your Speedy, El's SMP and S.L's speedy are Mods by my personal definition.

I had a speedy with the same dial as your's.










This is a mod.

I have this which currently has an aftermarket insert on it. It is a custom.









I made a new insert once for a SM300. Original bezel, but homemade insert. This is a custom.










This particular watch was to my knowledge a custom as I wasn't sure if the dial was authentic or not. If it was, it was a mod.


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Bumping - simply posting to take the post to the top of the forum where it will be more easily noticed.


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## Karma (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi All,
Thanks for all the replies. I think I do have a much better idea of the meaning of "Franken". It also seems clear that there is no exact meaning to any given person. Some of the "modded" watches shown above are beautiful. I don't think anyone would object to having any of them. If they are referred to as frankin then the term is not always negative.

The one part of the definition that repeats is when the watch is sold-is it being represented honestly? If this definition holds then a franken watch is not a frankin watch until it hits the market and the deal is made. I'm not sure this definition is broad enough. I understand that the case of watches that are not original in all aspects needs a catagory but I'm not convinced that "frankin" is the word. By the way, I love the word frankin. It is so imaginative.

As for my situation, I kept all the pieces so my Speedy could be restored to its original state, grainy, yellowed, disfunctional lume and all. Would it then be declared a reincarnated franken watch? ;-) But, I don't mind it being referred to as frankin-because, honestly, I love term so much. However, I really don't like the negative baggage of the term. 

I can tell you that my Speedy is both better looking and more functional than it was when I bought it. Love that applied Omega symbol. And it still looks like a genuine Speedmaster "Moonwatch". Oh, and it also works well too. I have to admit it is a bit of a sham but a very good one.

Sparky


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## Karma (Oct 31, 2009)

HI John in SC,
Does your dial have the applied Omega symbol? I can't tell from the pic. If it does then it is the same as mine. But, no matter. your Speedy looks great.

Sparky


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## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

Karma said:


> Hi All,
> Thanks for all the replies. I think I do have a much better idea of the meaning of "Franken". I By the way, I love the word frankin. It is so imaginative.
> 
> As for my situation, I kept all the pieces so my Speedy could be restored to its original state, grainy, yellowed, disfunctional lume and all. Would it then be declared a reincarnated franken watch? ;-) But, I don't mind it being referred to as frankin-because, honestly, I love term so much. However, I really don't like the negative baggage of the term.
> ...


I probably said this before in too many words but: I don't see why anyone would refer to your watch as a 'franken' (of course-your correct-if you tried to sell it as 100% auth/orig w/o disclosing what has been dome to it then-I suppose-a buyer could accuse you a selling them a 'franken'

But that would be totally absurd. What you have-or what you did is what 100s of speedy owners would LOVE to have done to their worn out old watches. Read some of the threads where guys say "back from the spa..." which is a euphemism for: they just spent between $700 and $2000usd to have their watches redialed , new hands, and all the things your watch has done. I seriously doubt that any spm sent off to Bienne CH to be refurbished at $1000 would be advertised as a 'franken' speedy anywhere watches like this are sold. Plus-with all the original bits and pcs? I bet you probably have what a LOT of guys would consider better than an original spm. After all-the refurbishng already has been done-with proof,(the parts) your story and what they now pretentiously refer to in used watch parlance (like vint. wines) as provenance. Proof of the watches 'story' can make it worth a bit more rather than much less-like a 'franken' would be.(

But- I'm not a speedy nut. Am I wrong? It sure seems like common sense.


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## snootydog (Sep 15, 2007)

I hate the term "Franken watch". Its nearly always used as a derogatory remark.......ARGHHHHHHHHHH dont get me started on that,lol. Ive seen people torn to shreds for proudly showing their non original,modded,whatever,watches and its not nice. I say,if you dont like the look of a watch because its not as it was originally made,then say "its not for me" but dont lay into it with the "Franken watch " comments. I know a forum (not this one) where they just love to pounce on anything not quite original. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |> -Andy


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## EL (May 30, 2009)

M4tt said:


> Mind you, I have to confess that El's SMP PO looks even better and is a work of daring genius.


Thank you! I will admit that it took me a little while to adjust to my "uber 2254" mod. I kept looking at it and wondering what it was...a PO Lite? A Fancy 2254? I was not quite sure how I felt about it during the first week or two, but now that I've worn it almost daily, it looks natural to me and honestly think it is close enough to something Omega *could* make that I have no shame in wearing this mod. In particular, the applied elements on the dial really look great and the bezel is much more refined than the original 2254.










Someone asked about "bump" and what it means. I once thought it was just a creative use of the word, like "I'm bumping into this post to push it to the front" or something. That seems plausible, but learned from someone else that BUMP as an acronym = Bring Up My Post.

Regards,
Eric


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## DaBaeker (Jan 29, 2008)

M4tt said:


> Oh if you insist!
> 
> Rolex Oyster Case, Omega 601 movement, MkII dial, Omega Dyanamic minute and hour hands, Omega 300 second hand, Grand Seiko Strap. When you want to build your personal perfect hand wind watch you have to go Franken.
> 
> ...


Is that Petra and Galilee? Looks like but cant say for sure? Sorry-dont mean to pry-just curious

Second-that is a VERY cool watch you got there. It has given me a good idea {and some confidence} of what my SS Date-Just would look like with a beefy shiny black strap which is something I have been tempted to do for a while but hesitate because the oyster band is such an integral component to an otherwise dull watch. Weird how the lugs look so much longer than I can picture w/o removing band and the black/SS looks great.) So-what on earth inspired you? And is there a reason the cal. 601 has a rotor/other parts that look so much like the cal1040 rotor/mvnt? At first I thought this was a sly joke but its too serious and nice looking to be funny.(I swear I saw a pict of a rotor movmnt that looked like a 1040. But I just read 'hand wound' so I don't know whose picture I'm referring to now-sorry)

So-why am I posting yet again???

!!!o| Your 'Omlex'. Its reminding me of and giving me ideas to find/post photos of my '76/'72 Triton-another wondrous fusion-though of two classic British twins. If an 'omlex isnt a joke-(i mean-sometimes things do fly over my head:think But if it isnt-I think I'm going to have to break my own pledge to boycott 'what ______ owners drive...' threads.

Then-I'd also have to dig out this extra ( beat up, no crystal and 'bent' fluted bzl) rlx day-date case I was given (with NO plans what-so-ever for). And without the skills to build my own fused watch-I dont even know what Om movement would be appropriate for a 39mm oyster? But-After I accomplish all this and am satisfied I will then find old pics and- post my '76/'72 'Triton Comboville- (the principle thinking--was that the superior Bonneville engine placed in superior handling/stability Norton "isotonic" frame) significantly reduced vibration at high speeds which was definitely a plus {especially if you know pre-80s British twins} in the days when rear brakes were still shoes and ...heaps of different non-watch related reasons.)

But WOW! How cool would that be? Riding down a country lane with two British twins fused between your legs and two fused Swiss mechanicals strapped to your arm? Its kind of like the 'Ultimate in excess thrills and luxe- except ..... well not quite. But definitely interesting and fun.

Anyway-the below photo isnt exactly what my Triton looked like. Mine was white, built my own version od seat, ( different/not as pretty). Also- didnt have cafe racing tank either (which was pretty much one of the main reasons to fuse: racing)-so you can get a better idea of how much uglier of a hybrid mine was. But I thought it was gorgeous. And surprisingly easy to figure out ways to retrofit almost any parts from either of the two bikes. [if only my fingers could handle watch movmnt parts like cycle parts:-|] And while a '73 Norton 850 was by far the craziest and most dangerous bike fun I ever owned**-I did have a blast on the Triton for its short life-span.

**i'm thinking about all the young guys here with their new POs , Speedies, and SMs that have Ducati's, Suzukis, Buells,etc---Bikes that would literally BLOW the Norton away today. I suppose its cliche but just like I love the old Omegas-there is something about putting your trust in a '72 Laverda 750 or a '73 Norton 850 (bored out to 900 with racing Magnito ...), shoe brakes on the rear, 90mph, 70s technology...Man was it thrilling. But I wasnt a speed junkie at heart. Then I had baby girl #1. Sold out I guess? Sold 'em all and eventually settled on vintage BMWs (the 'volvo' of road bikes)

I'm sure your omlex will hold up for a lifetime w/o threatening it either.

(and so...Is the omlex a 'project' watch of your own design? or a custom pc. you had done for your own pleasure? Was it a challenge? (as in VERY difficult to build or: "bet you couldnt make a watch like...?) Not sure why at first glance I thought you were joking? Maybe because I owned that Triton and I can't tell you how many US biker guys thought I was joking at the time I rode it and how it was just-or only one 'crackpots' {me} goofy project bike . If only ...:roll

Again- Nice watch. And here's somebody else's-not my- Triton:


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

> BUMP as an acronym = Bring Up My Post.


You learn something new every day!


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## M4tt (Jan 18, 2007)

Slimline featherbed if I'm not mistaken, VERY nice. I did something similar with a T90 engine many many years ago. I am just old enough that the old British stuff was cheap when I was a kid and, before I went to Uni I did a couple of years apprenticeship as a mechanic. It's funny how your life changes direction...

Anyway, mine was Triumph/Greeves, a Grumph. It was a bit tall, but ultralight and with a lovely stiff frame. I'll try to find some old photos, but it looked a bit like a rough green version of this


__
https://flic.kr/p/3068799381

with telescopic forks. It's another classic build and rally quite easy once you sort out the engine plates and line up the chain.

Anyway, the Omlex was completely my own idea. I had the 601 rebuilt by the guy who did my watches but I posted the whole thing here:

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=250027&highlight=omlex

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=233285&highlight=omlex

And the photos are of The Valley of the Kings from above and the old British fort at the head of the Nile at Aswan.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=250027&highlight=omlex

As for the sea of Galilee, that's fourth down!

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=127722&highlight=israel

Now I'm just showing off!


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## TheBluePrince (Oct 22, 2009)

I think we can seperate this into two main categories.

People who think that "franken" is a negative term used by scammers who then will use many various other terms to describe any non standard watches that have been "played with" that they own, like or would like to have. Anything they don't find to their taste or somehow isn't upto their particular standards will be called franken.

People who don't label things so much, aren't judgemental or watch snobby and keep an open mind and find it easier to just use the term "franken" for any played with, modded, changed, altered watch.


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## Blipvert (Aug 10, 2007)

I definitely don't think a modified watch should be considered a Frankenwatch... mods are additions, options, and other cobblings done for the sake of personalization and whimsy/taste. A Frankenwatch in my opinion is most usually applied to a vintage watch which is made up of parts which are different and usually inferior to the original parts. 

Adding lume or different hands to a vintage watch doesn't necessarily make it a franken, I don't think. Repair parts (especially in other countries) weren't always readily available or affordable. However, when you see, say, a completely wrong dial, case, or movement in a watch... it's become something other than the vintage watch it is. These mongrels are still not frankenwatches however... they become frankens when they are worn, sold, or displayed disingenuously. In other words, it's the actions of the owner, not the watch itself that casts the disparaging light... but that's just how I see it.


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## BaCaitlin (Sep 6, 2009)

S.L said:


> Think "Frankenstein".
> Something put together of parts not originally destined to belong by it's original maker.
> 
> Not necessarily a bad thing IMO but some frown upon it on principle.
> ...


SL

That is a beauty:-!

If you ever get tired of it, let me know ;-)


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## Karma (Oct 31, 2009)

HI All,
In this thread I have read a wide variety of what people think the term Franken means. There is some agreement and a lot of disagreement. Like many words not in the dictionary, there is no fixed meaning. It is more of a "folk" term. This makes using the term very scary and maybe it should be avoided totally. It is certainly not a definitive description of a watch.

Now, I want to play devil's advocate. I will argue against myself. Clearly, none or most of you all are formal watch collectors. You may own a large variety of watches. You are watch lovers. But you are not Formal collectors. There is a big difference between the two. Formal collectors of anything, from watches, to cameras, to furniture, etc., have certain fixed rules and these have nothing to do with the size of the collection. It does have everything to do with worth. Worth is determined by an items uniqueness, availability, provenance, nearness to original condition, and market demand. Often, the original price is a factor but not always. Collectors will almost never collect modifications of the original piece. They are ALWAYS sensitive to original condition; the more original the better. The more provenances, which documents the history of the item, the better. All these things add to the value of the item. Formal collections are all about value in a very restricted market.

The exception is the odd collector who has a collection based on non-original items; that's its theme. The reason this type of collector is not a factor in the collector world is because other collectors are not interested in the odd collector's obsession. IOW, this type of collection has no value in the collector's world. Thus, I will leave this odd collector alone other than to acknowledge its existence.

Collecting watches is no different than other collections. A watch, such as my "modded" Speedy, is of no interest to the collector. Why? Because it is not original, among other reasons. If my watch had been a truly collectable Speedy, such as the original Moonwatch with the Lemania 321 movement, and the non-Moonwatch case back, and the original case, dial and hands, I would not have modified it. I also would not wear it. And what fun is that? The original Moonwatch is worth real money and will continue to appreciate sometimes in spite of condition. But my Speedy is relatively common, despite its age (1971), and thus, not worth close to the same as on original Speedy. I knew this before I considered the modification. I knew I would not lose much if anything. So, I did the mod.

If I had modified an original condition Moonwatch, a Formal collector would be justified calling the result a "Frankenwatch", a mongrel, an abortion, etc., and his interest in such would be zero. And he would be right. If the collector terms my Speedy a Frankenwatch, I could not object. It really is a Frankenwatch but the collector would not really be concerned. My watch is simply not worth enough to tickle his fancy. My Speedy is just an after thought.

Thus, I think the use of the term Frankenwatch should be correctly limited to the vocabulary of the Formal collector. From his point of view and interests, my watch is indeed a Frankenwatch and its value is limited, as are all the modded watches shown in this thread nice as they may be.

Sparky


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## ezinternet (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi SL, 

Would you please indulge us with the detail of parts that make up your white-dial Speedie ("Franken" as you put it)? Are the dial and hands Omega parts or aftermarket? 

It really is a very striking look!


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## S.L (Jul 11, 2008)

ezinternet said:


> Hi SL,
> 
> Would you please indulge us with the detail of parts that make up your white-dial Speedie ("Franken" as you put it)? Are the dial and hands Omega parts or aftermarket?
> 
> It really is a very striking look!


Thank you.

All parts are genuine Omega and belong to different Speedmaster models. Last time I looked around on the Watchco site both the dial and hands were available there.

Some say that this is a genuine Speedy configuration (I've seen a few FS w/o any mentioning of them being put together, there was one on chrono24 a while ago for example) but as long as I cannot see some real supporting evidence of that I'm quite sure that this is not the case.
I've been told by more than one knowledgeable WIS that the dial belongs to a WG Ltd Ed Speedmaster sold exclusively in Italy. 
IIRC from what I was told the hands for that model should not have any lume, so my guess is that my configuration is franken/custom (since it has a steel case and lumed hands).

For me it is one of the most beautiful Speedys I've seen and I'm a bit amazed that Omega never did one quite like this considering the number of Speedy variations they have produced. :-d

And I've taken it even further now on the franken/custom path by adding a sapphire caseback,



















/Stefan


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## Nalu (Feb 14, 2006)

S.L said:


> Some say that this is a genuine Speedy configuration (I've seen a few *FS w/o any mentioning of them being put together*, there was one on chrono24 a while ago for example) but as long as I cannot see some real supporting evidence of that I'm quite sure that this is not the case.
> 
> /Stefan


And this is the problem with frankens made of genuine parts IMO (I think frankens with fake parts speak for themselves). Not all sellers are knowledgeable or attentive enough to know the difference or mention it, and some are simply dishonest and don't mention it. I know Stefan will pass on the pertinent information should he ever sell this gorgeous piece, but not every WIS or dealer is in his league when it comes to integrity.

I agree that Omega should make this as an official model, but I also think they've jumped the shark WRT styling and don't expect them to have that kind of insight into enthusiasts' tastes.


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

A Franken Watch? I'd say that it's this one here:










(yes, I could not resist)


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## Mockingbird (Nov 1, 2009)

EL said:


> \
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, but what do you do when it's time to send it in for service?


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## Patsbox7 (Jul 22, 2012)

Someone gave me a very simple explaination. Think a box of random watch parts from different watches assembled to resemble something that it isn't. If your watch just has some updated parts most wouldnt consider it a franken.


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## Spacefruit (Jan 13, 2012)

Patsbox7 said:


> Someone gave me a very simple explaination. Think a box of random watch parts from different watches assembled to resemble something that it isn't. If your watch just has some updated parts most wouldnt consider it a franken.


agree.

Dr Frankenstein created a monster from body parts assembled from several cadavers. He then animated this disparate collection of dead parts into life, in order to imitate a human.

A franken watch is surely a watch assembled from parts salvaged from many others, put together in such a way that the whole loosely imitates, but does not replicate, a watch built by a factory.

A franken watch should also, by inference, be easily identified, just as the monster is easily identified from humans from which its parts are salvaged. Indeed if the watch in question started as a complete watch, I cannot see how the simile would be valid, as the parts of Dr Frankenstein's monster came from different sources.

I think it is commonly used (a little arrogantly) some by people who wish to denigrate, or derogate modified or customised watches where the builder has followed his own passions and designs, often only changing a dial and handset. Hardly a re-animation.

I would use the term if the built up watch consists of parts from more than one source, and didn't look right.


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## richardew (Apr 7, 2011)

Is a modified watch a Franken? I don't think so. A Franken is put together from different watches and passed off as an original.


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## Patsbox7 (Jul 22, 2012)

I think we just put the nail on the coffin on this one. Read the last three responses and you will get the idea on a franken...


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## Kizzi (Jul 12, 2010)

Good summary, but there's also the über snobby "put-together-watch".

https://www.watchuseek.com/f20/put-together-speedmaster-2998-1-a-776860.html

My Speedmaster 861 is currently at Bienne being serviced. I've asked them to take a look at the hands, because although I've owned it since new, when it was serviced about 10 years ago at Omega Servicing centre in the UK they refreshed the hands with those from an Omega Speedmaster 125. I don't think Omega really cared in those days. I've read they would regularly replace the dial with the latest one (and I imagine bin the old one).

As for the the patina of old watches, I'm torn between it looking nice and looking worn out. For me, it's a working watch, and if I can't tell what time it is in the dark, it should be in a display case, not on my wrist.


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## Noisy Nova (Feb 2, 2008)

Origional:










Modified:


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

It's interesting to see this thread revived and that there's still relatively little consensus about what falls under the pitiable estate of "frankenwatch".



richardew said:


> Is a modified watch a Franken? I don't think so. A Franken is put together from different watches and passed off as an original.


I think this is pretty much my view. But it's an interesting one in that the intent to deceive is what causes a watch to cross the threshold into disrepute. This implies that there is no watch which is intrinsically a Frankenwatch - only when it becomes the object of misrepresentation or fraud does it become so. As a corollary, when such a watch is discovered to be fraudulent, say after a sale, it no longer remains a Franken so long as its owner remains honest.

So, taking an example from my own collection, this watch is an entirely legitimate custom watch:










But becomes an illegitimate Franken if I try to pass it off as a rare 1965 "transitional" Straight-lug Pro.

Does that definition satisfy people?


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## Spacefruit (Jan 13, 2012)

ASRSPR said:


> It's interesting to see this thread revived and that there's still relatively little consensus about what falls under the pitiable estate of "frankenwatch".
> 
> I think this is pretty much my view. But it's an interesting one in that the intent to deceive is what causes a watch to cross the threshold into disrepute. This implies that there is no watch which is intrinsically a Frankenwatch - only when it becomes the object of misrepresentation or fraud does it become so. As a corollary, when such a watch is discovered to be fraudulent, say after a sale, it no longer remains a Franken so long as its owner remains honest.
> 
> ...


Not me.

thats a beautiful watch.

To be a franken, there has to be some element of ugliness.

Even if the ugliness is internal.


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## georges zaslavsky (Feb 11, 2006)

I am not into frankens but to each their own


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

georges zaslavsky said:


> I am not into frankens but to each their own


I imagined that you'd say that, Georges. It's certainly a reasonable position, but how would you define it exactly? This is the question that I think we've been trying to grapple with: the term has negative connotations, so I imagine that a large majority of WUS participants are "against frankens". But what this means is up in the air because we never define it precisely.

I think we can probably all agree that a brand new watch purchased from an AD is not a Franken. I think most people would agree that a new watch purchased from a gray-market dealer is also not one. I think that we'd probably also all agree that, say, the fake made-in-India Ranchero redials can be considered Frankens.

It's the edge cases that are tough.

What about:
1. A watch that has been serviced at an AD with parts matching its originals?
2. A watch that has been serviced by Omega with different replacements parts because the originals have gone out of stock (e.g. pre-moon Speedy with dot-next-to-90 bezel)
3. A watch that has been serviced by a third party watchmaker with different replacement parts?
4. What if these parts are "major" parts like the dial, movement, or case (e.g. Omega replacing a cal. 863 Speedy with a cal. 1863)
5. A watch that matches original specs, but every part been piecemeal replaced over the years (e.g. Ship of Theseus)
6. A watch newly made from such original parts (e.g. watchco SM300, but with an entirely NOS cal. 5xx movement created from parts)
7. A Watchco SM300?
8. An original Omega watch with some parts replaced by non-Omega parts (e.g. generic crown or crystal)
9. An original Omega watch customized by an non-watchmaker amateur (e.g. nearly my entire Omega collection)
10. An original Omega watch customized as to resemble another Omega watch, but without deception (e.g. a Gen 1 X-33 modified with Gen 2 parts)

As is evident throughout this discussion, there's alot of gray areas that make it necessary to really dive into semantics. I don't imagine that we'll be able to form any kind of forum consensus on the matter, but I'm interested in what people really mean.

Legitimacy is an interesting property - especially when it comes to luxury goods, where it is the central commodity. From what I've read over the years here, it's even taken on a quasi-theological significance, whereby a watch is instilled with a soul upon its assembly, never to be divided or transmuted except by its Creator lest it be turned into some kind of forsaken monster.


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## Rrr22777 (Dec 31, 2013)

What are some reputable dealers that sell "Franken" Watches?


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## dantan (Dec 16, 2014)

Just as Frankenstein is someone (something) you would want to avoid, avoid a Franken watch! I bought one off eBay (a supposedly Vintage Longines watch) and was not aware that it was a Franken watch (did not even realise that they existed) and when I realised it, I literally threw it in the bin.


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## GoBuffs11 (Sep 28, 2010)

Frankenberry


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## Prashant pandey (Jun 24, 2013)

Dear friends, 

I found this thread extremely enlightening and interesting . I intend to revive this thread as I wanted to gather the views of the knowledgeable members here on the below mentioned points :

1). If a watch is assembled outside the watch factory, let's say by a watch repairer using all original parts brought either new from the company or salvaged from original watches. Would it be called Franken. Especially in case of watches where each watch does not have an individual serial number. 

2) Over time if the watch keeps getting parts replaced by genuine or aftermarket parts or parts from watches from other brands due to wear or depreciation due to age. In such a scenario, when does a watch become Franken or ceases to become an original watch. 

Thanks in advance for your responses.


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## GTTIME (Jun 28, 2009)

Prashant pandey said:


> Dear friends,
> 
> I found this thread extremely enlightening and interesting . I intend to revive this thread as I wanted to gather the views of the knowledgeable members here on the below mentioned points :
> 
> ...


We have the exact same discussion about vintage cars, I restore classic mustangs.

The first I would call a tribute and the second is restored or refurbished. I don't think either are try frankens but could see why people think that.


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## Prashant pandey (Jun 24, 2013)

GTTIME said:


> We have the exact same discussion about vintage cars, I restore classic mustangs.
> 
> The first I would call a tribute and the second is restored or refurbished. I don't think either are try frankens but could see why people think that.


Thanks for your reply. Would the first one still be called tribute if the company is still producing the same watch/car and an exact model is assembled using parts by someone outside factory. Also, for the second one at what stage of parts replacement will the car or watch will cease to be an original


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## bgrisso (Apr 22, 2013)

These are matters of opinion, not fact. But I will give you my opinion.....both scenarios listed above are not what I would generally call franken.


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## GTTIME (Jun 28, 2009)

I think bgrisso above has hit the nail on the head there is no definitive 51% of replacement parts equals X or Y it's a matter of opinion and judgment personally I agree I don't think either of those would fall into the category of Franken. Although I have more issue with A watch assembled outside of the factory then I do with a watch that is refurbished with parts.


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## Prashant pandey (Jun 24, 2013)

I agree second scenario is definitely quite difficult also because the changes made to the watch are mostly gradual and every time the watch goes for service parts might be replaced till one day the watch might end up quite different from how it started from the factory 

The first issue is also not easy because all the parts are original but assembled not inside the watch company. 

I thank all of those who have taken the trouble of responding to my query and I look forward to more inputs from the helpful and experienced members on this forum.


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## mario24601 (Jun 17, 2009)

WOW!!!!



S.L said:


> Think "Frankenstein".
> Something put together of parts not originally destined to belong by it's original maker.
> 
> Not necessarily a bad thing IMO but some frown upon it on principle.
> ...


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## happy_junker (Mar 10, 2017)

Oh man, that watch is so pretty. Just wondering where did you get that dial from? I wanna get something like that beauty! I believe its an apollo XI 25th year anniversary dial but i like the hands more than the original apollo XI ones.


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## ABN_80 (Feb 4, 2015)

Modding (franken)doesn't bother me as long as it enhances the look of the watch and it is declared at time of sale


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## DocJekl (May 19, 2014)

S.L said:


> Think "Frankenstein".
> Something put together of parts not originally destined to belong by it's original maker.
> 
> Not necessarily a bad thing IMO but some frown upon it on principle.
> ...


Nice, I have everything to do this mod (with the option of red sweep seconds hand), as well as the Mitsukoshi mod with silver hands. Now all I need are the watches to go with the parts.


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