# Please don’t buy Steeldive watches.



## USA_Fred (Sep 5, 2020)

I'm a big fan of Chinese Homage watches. They are the absolute best watches when it comes to quality compared with price. They're just unbeatable. However, the industry has a long way to go before it can be considered legitimate, in my eyes.

I think that there is a lot of speculation about what exactly is going on behind the factory doors of watch companies in China. Some people suggest that there is link between homage watches and counterfeit watches. Although there is no evidence of this as of yet, that has seemed to have surfaced (please correct me if I'm wrong) on watch forums, it's a logical conclusion based upon case design and it's possible replication in homage and counterfeit watches. Assuming that such logic is correct, some people lump counterfeit watches in with homage watches based upon a moral argument that assumes that there is something illegal or possibly suspicious going on with the watch industry in China.

As I said before, I really like Chinese homage watches, and up until recently I have had lot of respect for how the industry was able to offer such high quality watches for such an affordable price. However, a recent experience with Steeldive has made me think otherwise. It is my conviction, based upon the evidence presented in this post, that Steeldive and other Chinese homage watches are indeed connected and are also involved in illegal activities. Please review the following pictures:
















As you can see in the pictures, the word "Rolex" is etched on the rehaut of two Steeldive watches that I purchased recently. I assume that the Steeldive factory polishes down the etchings of fake Rolex watches and then turns these watches into Steeldive watches by adding parts. I suppose that what they do could be just considered a modification of counterfeit watches. ​Previously my assumption was that Steeldive watches were made using factory specifications for cases that may have also been used for counterfeit Rolex watches as well. Clearly, I was wrong. It was just wishful thinking on my part.

Why does this even matter? If you like a watch then who cares what other people think. Who even cares if it's a knockoff, counterfeit, or homage? The reason why it so incredibly important is because the very same people who are making illegal watches are also responsible for making the homage that you buy. Based upon the evidence that I've presented here and my logic, every time you buy a homage watch you are essentially putting money in the pocket of people involved in illegal activities. So, there needs to be a change in the industry to correct this problem and or an intelligent consumer response from the watch community, which conveys that this type of action in intolerable.

As a side note: I bought both watches on Aliexpress and I strongly recommend that you do not buy from any seller on Aliexpress, ever. Aliexpress is involved in a lot of illegal counterfeit activities and there is no legal path that you can follow if something bad happens to you as a consumer. Additionally, ​I've seen some community members just bully and harass the writer of a recent post concerning price gouging by Heimdallr. If you disagree with my logic then please present a convincing argument against my viewpoint and present tangible evidence. I'm not interested in ignorant political viewpoints or stupid racist garbage. I'm not interested in hearing or listening to the nonsense of bullies. Please go somewhere else and post if you're affiliated with Steeldive or Aliexpress. You're not welcome to post here and I will contact the forum moderator immediately if you anyone tries anything. Thank you for your time.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

You should post this in the affordables forum, too.


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## WooGuy (Nov 18, 2020)

Clearly there is a connection (at least sometimes). Thanks for letting us know. Will avoid.


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## funkmon (Jul 14, 2020)

Whoa


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## GrimFandango (May 8, 2018)

It does not surprise me that some of the same parts and machines are used to make both. Especially given the fact that the dimensions and specifications of both are sometimes the exact same. It would make too much sense for it not to happen. 

That is how a lot of counterfeit products are made. Making use of resources originally put into place to make a legitimate product. It works that way in the textile industry as well.


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## jjohn73 (Dec 26, 2014)

So now you know...

Rolex outsources their case manufacturing with Steel Dive.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeff Pesos (May 17, 2020)

jjohn73 said:


> So now you know...
> 
> Rolex outsources their case manufacturing with Steel Dive.
> 
> ...


100% Rolex quality with 0% luxury markup. They really are disrupting the industry. Brb buying my Steeldive.


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## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

USA_Fred said:


> I'm not interested in ignorant political viewpoints or stupid racist garbage. I'm not interested in hearing or listening to the nonsense of bullies. Please go somewhere else and post if you're affiliated with Steeldive or Aliexpress. You're not welcome to post here and I will contact the forum moderator immediately if you anyone tries anything.


In your first ever post on WUS you threaten to contact the mods "if anyone tries anything". Bold.


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## BeardyBoy (Jun 5, 2017)

I have just bought a watch from Parnis on AliExpress. It is not a copy/homage/look a like watch, but just a nice design with a Miyota movement, which looked great value. I received the watch after a couple of weeks and I am really pleased with it.

However, my golden rule when buying from China is to not spend money that I am not prepared to lose. I always expect to receive the goods, but if it breaks or is rubbish quality, you have no guarantee's... Caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, especially with Chinese watches. 

It's disappointing to see support for blatant fakes...but sadly not that surprising.


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## combat_vet (Nov 12, 2016)

Fergfour said:


> In your first ever post on WUS you threaten to contact the mods "if anyone tries anything". Bold.


Very bold.


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## drdas007 (Oct 2, 2012)

No real surprises there, but thanks for the heads up!


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## GeorgeGordon (Jan 15, 2019)

Sure, yeah, nothing suspect about a new account with a single post providing astounding evidence of wrongdoing. Totally on the up and up, nothing suspicious here at all.


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## Ew322538 (Feb 27, 2017)

As the executive VP for the Ali group of companies, I am shocked to hear that you’ve seen this bullying happen. I will ensure it won’t happen again.

interesting first post bud.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

GeorgeGordon said:


> Sure, yeah, nothing suspect about a new account with a single post providing astounding evidence of wrongdoing. Totally on the up and up, nothing suspicious here at all.


Exactly my thoughts this is what we call: slander and punishable by law. I will report this topic. If he has real proof he should take it to court, not here.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Maybe he works for rolex.
Looks like the same watch in two different crappy photos
Maybe the rehauts are rolex rejects and sold off as scrap, or to steeldive and their polishing was a bit off that day
Maybe it's none of the above
Maybe it's all of the above
Maybe it's the greys (the aliens, not the sellers)
IBTL


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Ew322538 said:


> As the executive VP for the Ali group of companies, I am shocked to hear that you've seen this bullying happen. I will ensure it won't happen again.
> 
> interesting first post bud.


Sir your not allowed to post here as a representative of Ali.

PS when will you fix the coffee machines?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Seabee1 said:


> Maybe he works for rolex.
> Looks like the same watch in two different crappy photos
> Maybe the rehauts are rolex rejects and sold off as scrap, or to steeldive and their polishing was a bit off that day
> Maybe it's none of the above
> ...


But this topic is 100% slander and should not be here.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Also why are the pictures of such low quality, come on now....


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Szechuan said:


> But this topic is 100% slander and should not be here.


I think technically it's libel since it's written
I think he used the now-infamous "Potato Camera" duh duh duuuuuuuu (law and order)


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Mr.Jones82 said:


> You should post this in the affordables forum, too.


Please no.... Come on open your eyes this picture is such low quality. This is slander.



WooGuy said:


> Clearly there is a connection (at least sometimes). Thanks for letting us know. Will avoid.


There is? How do you take this as proof, look at those pictures. Anyone with a bit of photoshop skills....



BeardyBoy said:


> I have just bought a watch from Parnis on AliExpress. It is not a copy/homage/look a like watch, but just a nice design with a Miyota movement, which looked great value. I received the watch after a couple of weeks and I am really pleased with it.
> 
> However, my golden rule when buying from China is to not spend money that I am not prepared to lose. I always expect to receive the goods, but if it breaks or is rubbish quality, you have no guarantee's... Caveat emptor, let the buyer beware, especially with Chinese watches.
> 
> It's disappointing to see support for blatant fakes...but sadly not that surprising.


It's not all that bad....



drdas007 said:


> No real surprises there, but thanks for the heads up!


Your serious? One post by this guy and two pictures? And you trust him? Next time he photoshops you with a knife in your hand and your a serial killer?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Seabee1 said:


> I think technically it's libel since it's written
> I think he used the now-infamous "Potato Camera" duh duh duuuuuuuu (law and order)


In my country:
Slander = when you are on purpose saying something bad that's not true and doing so publically.
Libel = it is based on truth but still you shouldn't have done so.

I don't know anything about USA law. What I do know it's either libel or slander and both shouldn't belong here.

As for the camera: It's a wonder Loch Ness and Big Foot + Elvis weren't seen on it either.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Szechuan said:


> In my country:
> Slander = when you are on purpose saying something bad that's not true and doing so publically.
> Libel = it is based on truth but still you shouldn't have done so.
> 
> ...


Just depends on where a lawsuit (or charges) are brought.


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## drdas007 (Oct 2, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> Please no.... Come on open your eyes this picture is such low quality. This is slander.
> 
> There is? How do you take this as proof, look at those pictures. Anyone with a bit of photoshop skills....
> 
> ...


Ha ha. I'd trust him with my life!


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Seabee1 said:


> Just depends on where a lawsuit (or charges) are brought.


It does remain a very meretricious action which makes me feel very incommodious. I don't think it's equitable, to put it like he did. It's now up to the good people to offer some delineation on how to mollify the untrue animadversions raised by this topic starter.


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## Donerix (Apr 10, 2010)

Of course they make fake watches as well. If you have ever been to China you know that the culture has zero respect for design or brand rights. That is how they got started in the first place. And lets be honest what is the difference between an "honest" fake and an homage that you can order with any dial print to your liking or can be easily replaced with a different dial? I personally don't care. It doesn't seem to harm companies like Rolex or Seiko since they keep selling their watches and whatever prices they decide. I believe in the freedom to do what you want with your own money. If you try to sell a fake for the real deal - that is a whole other set of circumstances.
Most watch lovers here mod their watches for them and not for others to enjoy and I think that's just fine.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Donerix said:


> Of course they make fake watches as well. If you have ever been to China you know that the culture has zero respect for design or brand rights. That is how they got started in the first place. And lets be honest what is the difference between an "honest" fake and an homage that you can order with any dial print to your liking or can be easily replaced with a different dial? I personally don't care. It doesn't seem to harm companies like Rolex or Seiko since they keep selling their watches and whatever prices they decide. I believe in the freedom to do what you want with your own money. If you try to sell a fake for the real deal - that is a whole other set of circumstances.
> Most watch lovers here mod their watches for them and not for others to enjoy and I think that's just fine.


Turkey also has fake watches and such. It's part of life. The roman empire had counterfeit coins etc. It's something humans have been doing ever since...

I do however not believe that Steeldive or San Martin are doing this (making reps). I do not have any proof that they aren't. I just don't see the point.... These microbrands are quite new... Reps aren't.... So they made reps first and then went legit? Or did they go legit to finance the making of reps?

It just makes no sense to me....


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## crAss (Nov 11, 2018)

USA_Fred said:


> As a side note:
> I bought both watches on Aliexpress and I strongly recommend that you do not buy from any seller on Aliexpress, ever. Aliexpress is involved in a lot of illegal counterfeit activities and there is no legal path that you can follow if something bad happens to you as a consumer. Additionally,
> I've seen some community members just bully and harass the writer of a recent post concerning price gouging by Heimdallr. If you disagree with my logic then please present a convincing argument against my viewpoint and present tangible evidence. I'm not interested in ignorant political viewpoints or stupid racist garbage. I'm not interested in hearing or listening to the nonsense of bullies. Please go somewhere else and post if you're affiliated with Steeldive or Aliexpress. You're not welcome to post here and I will contact the forum moderator immediately if you anyone tries anything. Thank you for your time.


Did you open a dispute with Aliexpress for these watches? You can get full refund of your money because of this. When you open a dispute there is a clear category you can choose that the goods you were being sold were fakes.


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## Tclassen (Nov 9, 2019)

Hopefully Rolex sues the hell out of SteelDive Watches and shuts them down !


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## john_marston (Aug 29, 2019)

Hmm not sure what to make of this. A rather weird first post and OP to say the least... 

I've seen countless Steeldives reviewed by reputable people here and on YouTube, never heard of anyone having rep branding. Although I wouldn't be shocked if this was real, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions based off this one weird post.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

thewatch_guy said:


> Hopefully Rolex sues the hell out of SteelDive Watches and shuts them down !


If someone sees you with a knife in your hand in the kitchen. 
Would it be fair if you were then put on a trial for murder?
How gullible are you to believe someone after two potato quality pictures?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

john_marston said:


> Hmm not sure what to make of this. A rather weird first post and OP to say the least...
> 
> I've seen countless Steeldives reviewed by reputable people here and on YouTube, never heard of anyone having rep branding. Although I wouldn't be shocked if this was real, I'm not gonna jump to conclusions based off this one weird post.


My philosophy is: When you do something that's wrong and you shouldn't do, you should be really careful. 11 years ago I did actually cheat in exams but I was very careful to never get caught.

I don't think this is true. If it is I would like to see a video and not two potato pictures.


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## leastonh (May 29, 2012)

Suspicious first post is suspicious!


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## K42 (Jun 22, 2009)

Szechuan said:


> Also why are the pictures of such low quality, come on now....


It's like all of the low quality pictures of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster...


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## RotorRonin (Oct 3, 2014)

Unless I’m wrong, the argument here seems to be “don’t buy brands made in factories that produce reps/homages.” 

Isn’t it well known that a great many factories in China who make legit items also make counterfeits after hours?

If you don’t want to buy reps or copy “homages” that’s fine but I don’t think you can really avoid purchasing items from the factories that make them.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Szechuan said:


> It does remain a very meretricious action which makes me feel very incommodious. I don't think it's equitable, to put it like he did. It's now up to the good people to offer some delineation on how to mollify the untrue animadversions raised by this topic starter.


MDNoobie? Dat you?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Seabee1 said:


> MDNoobie? Dat you?


Nope you could say curiousity killed the cat and I clicked on that link of yours, thought it was funny to mess around a bit.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

K42 said:


> It's like all of the low quality pictures of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster...


But those are all real right? I read so on facebook.


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## Mr.Boots (Feb 13, 2006)

Fergfour said:


> In your first ever post on WUS you threaten to contact the mods "if anyone tries anything". Bold.


Bold? You're too charitable. I see it as obnoxious. Bad introduction by setting up a strawman situation and then threatening the folks that he's trying to persuade to his position.


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## sarbmaster (Jul 20, 2018)

crAss said:


> Did you open a dispute with Aliexpress for these watches? You can get full refund of your money because of this. When you open a dispute there is a clear category you can choose that the goods you were being sold were fakes.


This.
You can definitely find counterfeit items on AliExpress (and Amazon, eBay, etc).
Sometimes sellers even hide the fact that they are counterfeits such that you may not even realize that is what you are ordering (to avoid being flagged by the platform).
In all AliExpress cases I'm aware of, if you report the item as counterfeit upon receipt (with pictures) then you will get a full refund and the counterfeit seller will not get paid.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

sarbmaster said:


> This.
> You can definitely find counterfeit items on AliExpress (and Amazon, eBay, etc).
> Sometimes sellers even hide the fact that they are counterfeits such that you may not even realize that is what you are ordering (to avoid being flagged by the platform).
> In all AliExpress cases I'm aware of, if you report the item as counterfeit upon receipt (with pictures) then you will get a full refund and the counterfeit seller will not get paid.


This is true had this issue with some earphones.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

There's been a huge number of people on this forum who have bought Steeldive and none have reported this issue with plenty of pics of their watches as evidence.

But for the sake of argument lets just assume the OP's very bad photos are legit and despite the appearance suggesting otherwise there was no effort to doctor the photos to make it appear as if something nefarious is going on with Steeldive to fulfill some kind of agenda the OP has against the company. The first thing you have to ask yourself is why only a partial rehaut engraving? Such an effort would require a completely separate process, so why would a manufacturer stop with a partial and decide to throw it in the homage bin. Then you have to wrap your head around how such a thing would pass Steeldive's QC process. 

Next, Steeldive like pretty much ever other Chinese manufacturer (or Swiss for that matter) operate inside a manufacturing center where separate factories produce individual watch components. Virtually all microbrands (and most of the mass producers) will never produce all or even most of their components in house. They will rely on outside sources for their parts. It's virtually impossible to insure every single source of these parts have never produced parts for a counterfeiter. If that is the litmus test one wants to use for legitimacy, it's hard to imagine all but the most very expensive watches ever passing muster, including most Swiss manufacturers who most certainly do source parts from Asia.

Regardless the OP makes a most unconvincing argument.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Szechuan said:


> Turkey also has fake watches and such. It's part of life. The roman empire had counterfeit coins etc. It's something humans have been doing ever since...
> 
> I do however not believe that Steeldive or San Martin are doing this (making reps). I do not have any proof that they aren't. I just don't see the point.... These microbrands are quite new... Reps aren't.... So they made reps first and then went legit? Or did they go legit to finance the making of reps?
> 
> It just makes no sense to me....


This is hardly the first time that there have been homage watches with fake branded parts included, numerous Parnis homages of Rolexes and Tudors have been shipped with fake signed crowns, and other such components. Similarly, Rodina Nomos homages have shipped with fake signed casebacks. Whether or not it makes sense to you, the fact remains that many homage watches seem to tap into the same supply chain that supplies fake watches, which should really come as no surprise given how accurately replicated the cases are.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

GrimFandango said:


> That is how a lot of counterfeit products are made. Making use of resources originally put into place to make a legitimate product. It works that way in the textile industry as well.


Except that in this case, the causation is reversed. Unless of course you're suggesting that Rolex rehaults are made in China.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

mleok said:


> This is hardly the first time that there have been homage watches with fake branded parts included, numerous Parnis homages of Rolexes and Tudors have been shipped with fake signed crowns, and other such components. Similarly, Rodina Nomos homages have shipped with fake signed casebacks. Whether or not it makes sense to you, the fact remains that many homage watches seem to tap into the same supply chain that supplies fake watches, which should really come as no surprise given how accurately replicated the cases are.


Well the factory has more customers they make what the client wants. If they have a client that wants fake, they'll make fakes. That they use the same supply chain does not mean that they are selling reps on the offside.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

sarbmaster said:


> This.
> You can definitely find counterfeit items on AliExpress (and Amazon, eBay, etc).
> Sometimes sellers even hide the fact that they are counterfeits such that you may not even realize that is what you are ordering (to avoid being flagged by the platform).
> In all AliExpress cases I'm aware of, if you report the item as counterfeit upon receipt (with pictures) then you will get a full refund and the counterfeit seller will not get paid.


I just received a fake Omega bracelet from AliExpress where they photoshopped the branding out of the photos in the listing. I think people who believe that homage makers are totally above board are just being a bit naive.


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## MichTONY (Nov 14, 2020)

IMHO they just copy everything 1:1 and forgot to erase out the chapter ring marking


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Szechuan said:


> Well the factory has more customers they make what the client wants. If they have a client that wants fake, they'll make fakes. That they use the same supply chain does not mean that they are selling reps on the offside.


These highly accurately replicated case components exist because of the fakes, not the other way around.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

mleok said:


> This is hardly the first time that there have been homage watches with fake branded parts included, numerous Parnis homages of Rolexes and Tudors have been shipped with fake signed crowns, and other such components. Similarly, Rodina Nomos homages have shipped with fake signed casebacks. Whether or not it makes sense to you, the fact remains that many homage watches seem to tap into the same supply chain that supplies fake watches, which should really come as no surprise given how accurately replicated the cases are.


I'm pretty sure Parnis is or at least mostly is just a parts manufacturer. You will find all sorts of unnamed builders who use Parnis parts, and you can buy Parnis parts yourself easily on ebay, Ali, etc., and build your own watches. As such just because a watch says Parnis on the dial, doesn't mean the watch was made by Parnis and in all likelihood, it wasn't. The supply chain in China is very much like the supply chain in Switzerland in the 19th century. You have suppliers which simply fill orders from builders who could care less whether they are building legit or counterfeit watches.


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## Ew322538 (Feb 27, 2017)

Szechuan said:


> Sir your not allowed to post here as a representative of Ali.
> 
> PS when will you fix the coffee machines?


I've already told you, when your Rehaut polishing skills improve. Plus caffeine makes you jittery, harder to handle those tiny watch parts.


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## leastonh (May 29, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> But those are all real right? I read so on facebook.


The Loch Ness monster is real. So is Santa. I can't comment on bigfoot though.

What cracks me up about the OP here is that they seem to think avoiding buying products imported from China is actually possible. I'd love to know more about how they do that.


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## dfwcowboy (Jan 22, 2017)

mleok said:


> These highly accurately replicated case components exist because of the fakes, not the other way around.


This is almost certainly true, but as time goes on there is more business with legit than fake so it becomes less true. It's worth noting the Swiss watch industry started the exact same way replicating high quality American watches. So the same could be said for them. The difference being that instead of 10-20 years removed they are 100-200 years removed from the dirty business of IP theft.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

dfwcowboy said:


> This is almost certainly true, but as time goes on there is more business with legit than fake so it becomes less true. It's worth noting the Swiss watch industry started the exact same way replicating high quality American watches. So the same could be said for them. The difference being that instead of 10-20 years removed they are 100-200 years removed from the dirty business of IP theft.


In fact, the "Swiss Made" label was forced upon the Swiss by the US FTC, to ensure that American customers were not duped into thinking Swiss made pocket watches with American sounding brand names were made in the USA.


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## Len Baird (Feb 27, 2020)

mleok said:


> I just received a fake Omega bracelet from AliExpress where they photoshopped the branding out of the photos in the listing. I think people who believe that homage makers are totally above board are just being a bit naive.


I bought a pair of sunglasses off of Amazon, and the online ad showed unbranded "homage", but it arrived full on counterfeit branding of the expensive sunglasses it was copying.


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## leadbelly2550 (Jan 31, 2020)

I have never purchased a watch from that company or that site, and I don't have an opinion about homage or clone watches - i don't buy clones, but if people like them, great. 

In this case, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. First and foremost, no one buying a watch with a Steeldive watch face believes they're buying a Rolex. Second, it's misguided to suggest the street corner fake Rolex watch is cutting into the sales of authentic Rolex. Finally, it's not noteworthy that the same factory that makes cheap homage watches also makes cheap fake watches.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

dfwcowboy said:


> This is almost certainly true, but as time goes on there is more business with legit than fake so it becomes less true. It's worth noting the Swiss watch industry started the exact same way replicating high quality American watches. So the same could be said for them. The difference being that instead of 10-20 years removed they are 100-200 years removed from the dirty business of IP theft.


The fact remains that a homage like a Steinhart can survive without near perfect replication of the original, but a fake cannot, so there is a much greater incentive with a fake to achieve that near perfect replication.


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## Seabee1 (Apr 21, 2017)

Len Baird said:


> I bought a pair of sunglasses off of Amazon, and the online ad showed unbranded "homage", but it arrived full on counterfeit branding of the expensive sunglasses it was copying.


But did you know that would happen, or just coincidence?


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Personally, I'm inclined to believe the photos, as they look like a fake branded rehault that has been sanded down with a slightly misaligned lathe. This doesn't necessarily suggest that Steeldive is engaged in the manufacture of fake watches, but it does suggest that at least one of their parts suppliers also supplies components to the makers of fake watches, which again I do not find to be a surprising revelation.


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## Len Baird (Feb 27, 2020)

Seabee1 said:


> But did you know that would happen, or just coincidence?


I thought they would be unbranded like the pics. They arrived as fake POC sunglasses haha.


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## Brey17 (Mar 29, 2016)

Since we are into full-on conspiracy mode, maybe this poster bought a steeldive watch and popped a fake rehaut in it.


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## leastonh (May 29, 2012)

5hrs later.... 58 replies....nothing further from op! 😂


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## CRW161 (Feb 1, 2016)

Some people on here seem to think that fake knock-offs are a victimless crime, but I can tell you from experience they are absolutely not.
I work for a company (brand) that puts a lot of investment into the research and development of our products, and to making sure they are up to the quality standard. Yet 95% of the adverts on ebay and Amazon that feature our brand name are fakes, produced by people who have simply copied our product without any investment or any thought of whether what they are producing is fit for purpose. 
Then they steal our business potential on which we had planned to recover our investment costs.
Even a simple fake sticker using a properly registered trade name is still theft.
I can't talk for Ali Express, but of course Amazon and ebay don't care, however much you complain to them, they are still making their commissions.


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## Ginseng108 (May 10, 2017)

I have no comment because OP chose to make the post in dark text and microscopic so I can't even read it in dark mode.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Ew322538 said:


> I've already told you, when your Rehaut polishing skills improve. Plus caffeine makes you jittery, harder to handle those tiny watch parts.


Sorry boss I forgot I wasnt on the night shift. It wont happen again! Please do not fire me

I will make sure to do a better job next time.


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## catsteeth (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm sorry if it's already been said, but I got bored of the subject.

Surely Mr 1 post USA_Fred is just a *non de plume*, or even in this situation a ruse de guerre for a WUS regular.


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## DonQuixote (May 13, 2014)

Fergfour said:


> In your first ever post on WUS you threaten to contact the mods "if anyone tries anything". Bold.


Agreed. First post. Inflammatory and accusatory and threatening... maybe we should report OP's thread to mods?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

mleok said:


> These highly accurately replicated case components exist because of the fakes, not the other way around.


Though would you not acknowledge it's a good thing that these homages sell? They borrow the design of others but slap on they're own name and seem to move away from reps. I dont get it how this is bad? If more companies would follow it would be great.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Szechuan said:


> Though would you not acknowledge it's a good thing that these homages sell? They borrow the design of others but slap on they're own name and seem to move away from reps. I dont get it how this is bad? If more companies would follow it would be great.


It's better than selling fakes, but without the fakes, these high quality copies of the cases would not exist, so they are inextricably dependent on the continued existence of suppliers who make fake components, at least when it comes to "homaging" new watches that may arise.


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

combat_vet said:


> Very bold.


Erm... very, very bold


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> Exactly my thoughts this is what we call: slander and punishable by law. I will report this topic. If he has real proof he should take it to court, not here.


That's not slander. Slander is the spoken word. If what he's saying isn't true, that would be libel.

If you're about to pull on your big-boy pants and talk tough, you have to get it right.


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## one onety-one (Jul 20, 2020)

OP made a single post and launched four pages of responses. Are we a sensitive bunch? 😄


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> Please no.... Come on open your eyes this picture is such low quality. This is slander.
> 
> There is? How do you take this as proof, look at those pictures. Anyone with a bit of photoshop skills....
> 
> ...


And there it is again.... it isn't slander.


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## Kele1976 (Mar 22, 2020)

thewatch_guy said:


> Hopefully Rolex sues the hell out of SteelDive Watches and shuts them down !


Hmm 🤔 on the basis of some random post by some random guy on an open web forum. Yeah, sure... I hope you meant that in sarcasm.


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> It does remain a very meretricious action which makes me feel very incommodious. I don't think it's equitable, to put it like he did. It's now up to the good people to offer some delineation on how to mollify the untrue animadversions raised by this topic starter.


Good old 'Word of The Day' loo roll.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

PeteJ said:


> That's not slander. Slander is the spoken word. If what he's saying isn't true, that would be libel.
> 
> If you're about to pull on your big-boy pants and talk tough, you have to get it right.


I'm not sure if this is going to blow your mind mr big-boy, but there's more countries then the USA, united kingdom and whatever. And these countries do actually have different laws and different qualifications.


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

CRW161 said:


> Some people on here seem to think that fake knock-offs are a victimless crime, but I can tell you from experience they are absolutely not.
> I work for a company (brand) that puts a lot of investment into the research and development of our products, and to making sure they are up to the quality standard. Yet 95% of the adverts on ebay and Amazon that feature our brand name are fakes, produced by people who have simply copied our product without any investment or any thought of whether what they are producing is fit for purpose.
> Then they steal our business potential on which we had planned to recover our investment costs.
> Even a simple fake sticker using a properly registered trade name is still theft.
> I can't talk for Ali Express, but of course Amazon and ebay don't care, however much you complain to them, they are still making their commissions.


If that wasn't enough, in my past life and quite a bit in this one I have experience in identifying where the money for these such endeavours went. They didn't go to jolly hard working businesses who spent the money on staff, research, facilities and tax.

Make no mistake about it, this former law enforcement officer assures you, if you bought fake watches, you funded organised crime and terrorism. No hyperbole, no exaggeration, you were two to three links in the chain away from death.

You might not like the message, but I know it to be true.


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> I'm not sure if this is going to blow your mind mr big-boy, but there's more countries then the USA. And these countries do actually have different laws and different qualifications.


I'm sure there are. I'm living in one now.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Kele1976 said:


> Hmm 🤔 on the basis of some random post by some random guy on an open web forum. Yeah, sure... I hope you meant that in sarcasm.


I actually have found proof that a woman has spread corona all over the world:









It's my sincere hope they will find her and give her the death penalty for all that she has done!


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## PeteJ (Jan 5, 2012)

Szechuan said:


> Though would you not acknowledge it's a good thing that these homages sell? They borrow the design of others but slap on they're own name and seem to move away from reps. I dont get it how this is bad? If more companies would follow it would be great.


If the same people make homages and sell them than make counterfeit watches, we're very close to funding unsavoury activity there.

Your money, your choice. I could point you to some weapons dealers and people traffickers if you wanted - cut out the middle man, just give them your money direct?


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

PeteJ said:


> If that wasn't enough, in my past life and quite a bit in this one I have experience in identifying where the money for these such endeavours went. They didn't go to jolly hard working businesses who spent the money on staff, research, facilities and tax.
> 
> Make no mistake about it, this former law enforcement officer assures you, if you bought fake watches, you funded organised crime and terrorism. No hyperbole, no exaggeration, you were two to three links in the chain away from death.
> 
> You might not like the message, but I know it to be true.


I don't see how reps out of China lead to terrorism. First of all the Chinese are having a war with terrorism themselves.
Organized crime? That might be, but the Chinese are quite strict.... Let's say I'd rather be caught with cocaine in the UK then I would in China.

Also as a former law enforcement officer, you would know this image in the OP would not be good proof in a court case, if it was the only proof. There's no real proof to back up his claims for real.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

PeteJ said:


> If the same people make homages and sell them than make counterfeit watches, we're very close to funding unsavoury activity there.
> 
> Your money, your choice. I could point you to some weapons dealers and people traffickers if you wanted - cut out the middle man, just give them your money direct?


Of course they will have learned from the rep farms and markets. But reps are of a low quality. You find hairs and poorly oiled movements. How come San Martin. Steeldive and other brands do not have this issue? It's because they are not making those movements in illegal sweatshop farms. I do not think San Martin, Steeldive and or Heimdallr are involved in such activities, as in that they are making replica's on the side. They do homages.

And sure you could point me towards those, but people traffickers, no one owns the brand human, and as for guns as long as they shoot I'd be cool with it. Even if it's a replica. I however do not see these things going hand in hand with homage watches.

It's as if I say sugar gives rise to more violence in kids and creates serial killers. Just because sugar is a stimulant that stimulate kids. It's kind of pulling everything out of context and making the crimes fit. Something a corrupt prosecutor would do.


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## Kele1976 (Mar 22, 2020)

PeteJ said:


> And there it is again.... it isn't slander.


Here are some definitions from the UK govt website (HSE)

"A defamatory statement is one which injures the reputation of another person: it "tends to lower him in the estimation of right-thinking members of society generally1".

2. Such a statement constitutes a "libel" if it is: 

published (publication, for these purposes, is simply the communication of the defamatory matter to a third person)2; and 
in writing, print or some other *permanent form*. 
3. A statement will amount to a "slander" if it is 

published; and 
made orally or in some other *transient form. *
The assumption that slander was limited to spoken word is outdated. This web forum is easily edited or even deleted (like tweets) so the appropriate legal term for this form of defamation (assuming the allegations are untrue) could well be slander.


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## Kele1976 (Mar 22, 2020)

Either way I’m not sure about the legality of letting this thread continue and WUS may be taking a legal risk if it does... just my 2p


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Kele1976 said:


> Here are some definitions from the UK govt website (HSE)
> 
> "A defamatory statement is one which injures the reputation of another person: it "tends to lower him in the estimation of right-thinking members of society generally1".
> 
> ...


Thanks I didn't know how it was in the UK but it seems it's around the same as in my country then.

Also I've been thinking and posted it in a different topic. If there was Rolex on the rehaut of a Steeldive watch. The Steeldive watch uses a N35. A submariner rep would use a highbeat movement rep, a ETA clone or even a Rolex inhouse clone. Why would the rehaut of a N35 casing have Rolex on the rehaut. It makes no sense.


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## Szechuan (Oct 1, 2020)

Kele1976 said:


> Either way I'm not sure about the legality of letting this thread continue and WUS may be taking a legal risk if it does... just my 2p


I do agree and have already filed a report, but nothing has been done as of yet. 
This however in my opinion is just slander.

What if I would make a topic that Rolex locks up small childeren and they staged the Epstein suicide, but actually smuggled him to a bunker in a Swiss mountain? Obviously that would be slander and it shouldn't be allowed.


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## CMSgt Bo (Feb 12, 2006)

Replica discussion, politics, xenophobic generalizations, discussion of Mod actions, thread crapping...this thread has it all, and now it is closed.

On a side note, slander is the act of making false spoken statements damaging to a persons reputation...nothing in this thread is slanderous.


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