# Chinese Watch Industry Wiki



## Chascomm

This is the Wiki Sticky :-d

If you've got a question regarding Chinese watches, here is a good place to start; and it can only get better if you contribute what you know ;-)

The Chinese Watch Industry Wiki!
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

(thanks Ian)


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## NutellaBear

Chascomm said:


> This is the Wiki Sticky :-d
> 
> If you've got a question regarding Chinese watches, here is a good place to start; and it can only get better if you contribute what you know ;-)
> 
> The Chinese Watch Industry Wiki!
> http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
> 
> (thanks Ian)


I love the idea of a Wiki. The problem is the format though. You just can't go in and browse the articles. That is usually how I read a knowledge base, I flip through the pages just like a magazine.

With Wikis in particular, that isn't necessarily a problem when they have everything on earth in them like Wikipedia. Then you could use a search engine within the Wiki or even Google to find things and then branch off the links in a given article when you get close to the subject matter you were seeking.

Even then though, sometimes when I have nothing to do I just like flipping through pages to see what I find. Wouldn't just a regular old forum for reference material do the job just as well?

I've been working on networks far too long I suppose and am turning into a luddite.... (or at least, as the other half informed me the other day, getting crotchety)

/Tim


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## nderwater

I know exactly what you mean - what we're really missing right now is a table of contents or site map page.

In the mean time, here's what I've been doing - I use the built-in search function to search for a generic term ('watch' works well) and the search results effectively become my table of contents.


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## nderwater

nderwater said:


> I know exactly what you mean - what we're really missing right now is a table of contents or site map page.


...So I've created one. It's not automated, so when new pages are added the TOC/Site Map needs to be updated as well, but it's a step in the right direction.

In updating the "Swiss Made" page this afternoon, I've even learned about a movement I'd never heard of before. I think I'm already learning as much from the wiki as I am adding to it - thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.


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## gigfy

I was thinking about some sort of catalog for movements / models for the wiki. What do you guys think? This preview was done on googlepages, so I'd have to see what I could do inside wiki.

The first section is a very rough idea of a movement 'database'. I used pictures from cousins for the test. I didn't 'steal' any of these pictures but I did link to their site. Is that OK? One problem with linking to an external site is if they discontinue the model or go out of business, the links will be broken. We could use our own pictures and keep them on the wiki but it wouldn't be complete. I guess we could use what we have and supplement with external links and replace as we can.

I don't think it would be necessary to include all different variants (2501, 2502, 2503, etc). I just slapped it together without much thought and then added the text below a few of the movements. I think it would probably be best if I focused on the top level calibres (ST16, ST18, ST19 etc) right now. I can always go back and add more later. What website should I use to link the pictures? (Ofrei, Cousins, Ranfft)

The second section is just a small summary and some pics of one of my Shanghai's. Should we standardize what info is presented? I think a dial, caseback, & movement shot (aka Soviet style) is a good standard for the pictures. :-!

http://chinesemechanicalwatches.googlepages.com/movements

Cheers,
gigfy


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## nderwater

Awesome - movement database would be an fantasitc addition. It's definitely something I had in mind from the outset, wasn't sure how to execute the idea. Fortunately, I've experimented a little and have confirmed that wiki entries understand HTML code, which opens up a whole new realm of formatting capabilities.

I don't see any problem with using photos from other sources, so long as the source is mentioned & linked to on the page where they are used.


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## nderwater

To make posting photos easier, I've enabled the image upload function for logged-in users. After uploading your image(s), refer to the following tutorial page to learn how to add the images to pages in the wiki: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Images

For examples, refer to the Trias page which I've just added images to:
http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Trias


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## sphinx88

Wow, nice job, thanks!!


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## Ernie Romers

Ian,

I've added a link to the Wiki on top of the forum. Would it be possible to link to this forum on your Wiki pages?


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## Chascomm

Watchuseek Admin said:


> Ian,
> 
> I've added a link to the Wiki on top of the forum. Would it be possible to link to this forum on your Wiki pages?


OK, this gets back to my earlier idea about an entry for Forums.

Watchuseek deserves top billing for being the first to host an English language forum dedicated to Chinese watches, however recognition also needs to be given to the Chinese language forums who are now starting to show an interest. Today I will attempt to throw together an entry to cover all that, but it will need some contributions from others more capable than myself.

In addition to that; Ian do you think it appropriate to add a comment on the introductory page to the effect that the wiki was initiated by members of the Watchuseek Chinese Mechanical Watches forum?


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## nderwater

Chascomm said:


> ...do you think it appropriate to add a comment on the introductory page to the effect that the wiki was initiated by members of the Watchuseek Chinese Mechanical Watches forum?


Thanks, and certainly - I've added a WUS link to the homepage.


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## sphinx88

If there are pictures with the articles it would be much better!:roll:


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## Chascomm

sphinx88 said:


> If there are pictures with the articles it would be much better!:roll:


I agree. The Trias page has a couple of pictures for example of the format for anybody who wants to contribute.

Does anybody have any good quality images of the Chinese Standard (Tongji) movement? What we need is the basic movement, a skeleton, and perhaps and automatic. I've got some pictures on my HD but I 'borrowed' them from other forum members, and my own photos are... <|

The Swiss Made page would also be enhanced by a non-copyright image of the CL888 and ST16 for comparison.


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## soviet

Chascomm said:


> I agree. The Trias page has a couple of pictures for example of the format for anybody who wants to contribute.
> 
> Does anybody have any good quality images of the Chinese Standard (Tongji) movement? What we need is the basic movement, a skeleton, and perhaps and automatic. I've got some pictures on my HD but I 'borrowed' them from other forum members, and my own photos are... <|
> 
> The Swiss Made page would also be enhanced by a non-copyright image of the CL888 and ST16 for comparison.


I will try to take some movement pictures including Tongji(40 jewels Beijing Shuangling?), and Chunlei 19 jewels with some decorations.


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## Chascomm

sphinx88 said:


> If there are pictures with the articles it would be much better!:roll:


I've added some pictures to the Sea-Gull page, but it was a bit of a rushed job. I'd be delighted if somebody with better resources could edit it with improved pictures.


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## Chascomm

I just deleted a spam entry from the Wiki :-(

Is there nowhere in the world that is safe from spam? o|


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## nderwater

I've been swamped for a week with a project at work and trying to sell a car at home. I'll look into the spam post and see what can be done about that.


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## Pawl_Buster

Does the Wiki not work with Firefox?

I have only seen it properly displayed once or twice but most times I just see the HTML header code and no content :-(


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## nderwater

I created and maintain it though Firefox, so I can't imagine what the problem might be.

Does the homepage for the domain load correctly for you? http://www.tractionink.com/


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## gigfy

I use Firefox 2.0.0.14 and it works fine for me.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## Pawl_Buster

nderwater said:


> I created and maintain it though Firefox, so I can't imagine what the problem might be.
> 
> Does the homepage for the domain load correctly for you? http://www.tractionink.com/


Yes, it's working now :-!

Don't know what the problem was...maybe I tried viewing while changes were being made???


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## Chascomm

Help! I've lost my edit access!

I am no longer able to edit pages that I have created :-(


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## nderwater

A week or so ago I updated the site permissions so that you have to be logged in now to make edits. Are you still able to log in successfully? If so, let me know if there any threads which you are able to edit once you've logged in (ie, are only some restricted?)


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## Chascomm

nderwater said:


> A week or so ago I updated the site permissions so that you have to be logged in now to make edits. Are you still able to log in successfully? If so, let me know if there any threads which you are able to edit once you've logged in (ie, are only some restricted?)


Unfortunately, when I am logged in, I am unable to edit any threads.


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## nderwater

Rookie mistake. This should be fixed now - let me know if the problem continues.


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## nderwater

After reading a recent post by Ray MacDonald, moderator at large here at WUS, I was motivated to add a History section to the wiki's "Swiss Made" section to address the marketing propaganda which buoys Swiss watches in the marketplace, while maligning the terrific watches produced by of the rest of the world.

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Swiss_Made


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## Shogan191

Thanks alot for the Wiki guys. Just discovered it today and enjoyed looking around.

I was surprised reading that WUS is the only English/chinese watch forum. I did take a look at the other sites shown even though navigating was a little tough.

Anyway I appreciate the work that went into putting it together. I agree with someone else that posted that WUS should get more recognition for being the first with this useful information.


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## Chascomm

I've added a section about the Fiyta Spacemaster to the Mechanical Chronograph page. If anybody has any more details to add, please do so.


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## Aaron Weikart

I just updated the SEA-GULL page with information about the introduction of SEA-GULL into the US market. I also added some movement information for the different variations of the ST19. Feel free to correct any errors I might have made. ;-)


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## stevk

wow... really a good job.. I didnt know much about chinese watches history till i read those articles in the wiki... well written


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## Chascomm

I've revised the Claro-Semag page in light of a recent discovery.

Finally I figured out that the Semag Autoking uses a Felsa movement, so there are currently *no* (0) automatic movements known to have been designed and built by Claro or Semag.

I still await James Elsener presenting evidence to the contrary on that other forum where the question was raised. There might have been a Semag-designed automatic back in the 1960s and if so, I really want to know for the sake of accuracy on the wiki entry.


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## Chascomm

I've just added entries for Sunboro (China Army) and IK Colouring. I've also edited the ETA entry to make it more relevant to a _Chinese_ watch industry wiki.

If anybody has some photos that they would like to contribute to any of the pages, especially the tourbillon page, please do so. Or if you experience any difficulty with editing the wiki, please post the photos here and I'll link them up. Thanks.


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## GuySie

Chascomm said:


> If anybody has some photos that they would like to contribute to any of the pages, especially the tourbillon page, please do so. Or if you experience any difficulty with editing the wiki, please post the photos here and I'll link them up. Thanks.


What kind of pictures do you need? Would one of these help:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=244896

Or is there some particular shot you want of a tourbillon? I can't remove the movement from the watch so no dissection shots, but I could make some more macro's of any features you found relevant.


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## Chascomm

GuySie said:


> What kind of pictures do you need? Would one of these help:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=244896
> 
> Or is there some particular shot you want of a tourbillon? I can't remove the movement from the watch so no dissection shots, but I could make some more macro's of any features you found relevant.


Very nice photos! |> I was really just after general reference photos. I've picked out one of yours and attached it to the article. Thank you.


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## Harry Withenfields

I can't find anything about Parnis in the wiki. Am I looking in the wrong place, somehow, or is Parnis too new to have an entry?
Cheers, Harry


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## Chascomm

Harry Withenfields said:


> I can't find anything about Parnis in the wiki. Am I looking in the wrong place, somehow, or is Parnis too new to have an entry?
> Cheers, Harry


I'll look into it.

But if anybody else wants to write up something, please don't hold back.

The difficulty with some of these new brands is that it is often hard to find anything about who actually makes the watches.


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## nderwater

...and new brands often disappear as quickly as they appear. The brands listed in the wiki have been around for a few years and are still selling.


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## Chascomm

By contrast, Alpha has stood the test of time and is getting bigger all the time.

I think we need to expand Alpha's wiki entry, but I'm not really the person to do it. We need one of the many Alpha fans to assist.


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## Chascomm

I've completed the entry for Beijing Watch Factory. Thank you Gigfy and Soviet for all the help. Anything I've got wrong or missed, please let me know.


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## Chascomm

*Fakes, replicas and homages*

The next thing that I think needs refining is the Homages entry. What I have in mind is to expand it to Fakes, Replicas and Homages.

'Fake' simply defines illegal counterfeits. Could also dispell some myths about 'big factory' faking vs. the reality of generic parts, fake dials, small scale assembly.

'Replica' defines the correct meaning i.e. a reissue by the original manufacturer or current brand owner vs. the common/popular usage as a euphamism for fake.

'Homage' is basically the existing text of the article.

The last bit of the Sea-Gull page, dealing with fakes and homages, could be shifted to the Fakes, Replicas and Homages page as a kind of case study.

It has also been pointed out that for all instances of the word 'copyright' in the wiki, the intended meaning is probably 'trademark', or more generally 'intellectual property'.

The reason why I'm raising this here rather than just pushing ahead is that this is a delicate issue that should be covered right to avoid offense or confusion; so I'd welcome some feedback, suggestions, corrections etc in reply to this thread.


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## AlbertaTime

*Re: Fakes, replicas and homages*



Chascomm said:


> The next thing that I think needs refining is the Homages entry. What I have in mind is to expand it to Fakes, Replicas and Homages...


Although this isn't the usual terminology on WUS, I actually appreciate Mike Stuffler's distinction between Homages and "Lookalikes".

An _homage_, in the sense Mike uses the term, is a watch (even heavily but respectfully) influenced in design by another model but differing in at least some noticeable details, while _lookalike_ is what we usually refer to as an homage--actually a very, very close if not exact copy with only a differing brand and usually, say, a less expensive movement.


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## Chascomm

*Re: Fakes, replicas and homages*

The Fakes, Replicas and Homages entry is complete. Obviously it will not satisfy everybody, given the contentious nature of the subject, but I think I've covered most of it. The last section was shifted from the Sea-Gull article.

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Fakes,_Replicas_and_Homages

Did I mention that I've added a couple of other entries recently? Have a browse and let me know what needs fixing.


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## AlbertaTime

*Re: Fakes, replicas and homages*



Chascomm said:


> The Fakes, Replicas and Homages entry is complete. Obviously it will not satisfy everybody...


Well done, Chascomm. The entry certainly addresses the distinctions made in my post above--and much more. Thank you.


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## soopah

*Re: Fakes, replicas and homages*



Chascomm said:


> The Fakes, Replicas and Homages entry is complete. Obviously it will not satisfy everybody, given the contentious nature of the subject, but I think I've covered most of it. The last section was shifted from the Sea-Gull article.
> 
> http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Fakes,_Replicas_and_Homages
> 
> Did I mention that I've added a couple of other entries recently? Have a browse and let me know what needs fixing.


I would take a minor issue with this paragraph:


> *Bogus Brands*
> Some of the cheapest Hong Kong watches of the 1960s and 70s bore brand names intended to appear similar to more famous brands. Likewise with some of the cheapest Swiss watches from the 1850s to the beginning of the quartz era e.g. Omeqa, Longreene, Hormilton. This practice has been continued by modern Chinese watch companies e.g. Minorva, Orkina, Benarus. Strangely in both vintage and modern bogus brand watches, the watch very rarely looks anything like the famous watch whose name it emulates.


I own Benarus watches and I do not feel they are a bogus brand, in name or product. I see the closeness to the now mostly defunct brand Benrus, but that was not the association the owner was intending to make. You can find the reason for the name posted in their sub-forum on 3T.

The attached images show; my Benarus Barracuda on bracelet, a Benarus Sea Devil on leather strap (sold), my pre-ordered Benarus Megalodon, and my just shipped Benarus Morays in British Racing Green and Sea Foam Blue (these are just sample shots, my blue Moray was ordered with an orange minute hand).

As you can tell, I am a fan of Benarus watches, and I'd rather not see their name included along with bogus watch brands.

Of course, it is no secret Benarus have their watches manufactured in China, and they use Miyota movements, for the most part, with Swiss ETA movements planned for the Megalodon and WORLDIVER GMT Automatic.

Regards,
David (soopah)

David Lalonde


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## Chascomm

*Re: Fakes, replicas and homages*



soopah said:


> I would take a minor issue with this paragraph:
> 
> I own Benarus watches and I do not feel they are a bogus brand, in name or product. I see the closeness to the now mostly defunct brand Benrus, but that was not the association the owner was intending to make. You can find the reason for the name posted in their sub-forum on 3T.
> 
> The attached images show; my Benarus Barracuda on bracelet, a Benarus Sea Devil on leather strap (sold), my pre-ordered Benarus Megalodon, and my just shipped Benarus Morays in British Racing Green and Sea Foam Blue (these are just sample shots, my blue Moray was ordered with an orange minute hand).
> 
> As you can tell, I am a fan of Benarus watches, and I'd rather not see their name included along with bogus watch brands.
> 
> Of course, it is no secret Benarus have their watches manufactured in China, and they use Miyota movements, for the most part, with Swiss ETA movements planned for the Megalodon and WORLDIVER GMT Automatic.
> 
> Regards,
> David (soopah)
> 
> David Lalonde


The identification of Benarus as a bogus brand was in no way intended as any kind of judgment of the quality of the watch, just the name.

The US distributer of Benarus has echoed your sentiments on the wiki by editing out the Benarus reference in the article, and he explained that Benarus is apparently named after a mythological figure. My own cursory google of the name did not turn up any 'god of the sea', but did turn up a couple of forum references to people confusing Benrus with Benarus. All the same it's a small point and I don't intend to put Benarus back on the bogus list.


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## Chascomm

I've recently added a couple more entries and cross-referenced a whole lot. 

The biggest new thing is the Made in Hong Kong entry; feedback please.

And I've re-arranged the site index page for what I think is easier navigation, but I might just be weird, so again; feedback please.


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## Chascomm

Latest updates:

- Updated Sea-Gull and Beijing Watch Factory to reflect latest tourbillon, repeater and perpetual calendar developments.

- Added short articles explaining Perpetual Calendar and Ebauche.

- Added Cecil Purnell, Stuhrling Original and Dixmont-Guangzhou pages.

Does anybody own a Trias Automatic Tourbillon and have a couple of nice photos which I could use for the DG page?


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## nderwater

Great update |>


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## Chascomm

Lots of new content this week.

New entries for 
- Dalian Golden Knight
- Minorva
- Qingdao Zixin
- Liaocheng Watch Co.

Company histories added to
- Liaoning Watch Factory
- Dixmont-Guangzhou

A couple of brands linked up to those companies.

Next tasks will be:
- tracking down Shanghai Golden Time
- following up on some of the brand names listed on the index but not linked
- begging for help with a few phtos, once I figure out what is most needed.

Meanwhile, enjoy the new stuff!

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page


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## Chascomm

Latest updates:

- Company history added to the Shanghai Watch Factory entry.

- Shanghai Golden Time entry added. I'm holding off on the company history until I can confirm which factory they originated from.

- Swissebauches Ltd entry added. Fairly sketchy as there's little reliable info out there and no current corporate website.

- Several minor brands and manufacturers added.

- PTS Resources catalogue run-down updated to reflect the 2009/2010 catalogue.

- Added a couple of pictures (thanks Ron). Heaps more needed so don't be surprised if you guys with the big collections start getting PMed by me ;-)


So that's it for the moment. 

I'm considering an entry for Miyota as they do produce quartz movements in Guangzhou and their Japanese automatics are a kind of 'industry standard' that has shaped the developement of some recent Chinese movements.

And I'm still looking into Fujita. I need more info. Were they bult up from an old clockc factory or a completely new enterprise? Were they a factory planted by a Hong Kong business, or a joint venture between foreign and local businesses? Are they really the only Chinese manufacturer of complete mechanical watch movements with no prior history as a state-owned enterprise? They're a shady mob, but undeniably interesting.


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## nderwater

I second the addition of a Miyota entry. Thanks for your continued work - the wiki has grown to the point where it is averaging about 10,000 hits per week from all over the world. It truly has become the go-to resource for quick reference material about the Chinese watch industry!


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## Chascomm

nderwater said:


> I second the addition of a Miyota entry.


Done ;-)

http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Miyota



> Thanks for your continued work - the wiki has grown to the point where it is averaging about 10,000 hits per week from all over the world. It truly has become the go-to resource for quick reference material about the Chinese watch industry!


Cool b-)

Your vision for a one-stop-shop for independent information on Chinese watches really is starting to come true.

...and yet there is still so much to do.


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## nderwater

I've begun a page on clone movements featuring info gathered from a number of other pages in the wiki.

I would like begin the page by addressing the legal/ip status of these movements - but there's a real shortage of facts about this. Many of today's popular ETA movements are based on decades-old movements, some of which were developed by marques which went bankrupt in the 1960's and 70's. I'm assuming these movements were patented - are the patents for these still valid? The most prevalent Miyota and Seiko movements are similar-aged. Are their designs still protected?

In the case of Chinese clones of these famous movements, each clone has subtle differences which make it unique from the originals - do these variations in effect render them their own, unique movements? If not... what about instances such as the ST16, where are clearly influenced by an earlier design yet deviate substantially from that design with additional refinements and features?

It would be terrific if we found someone with factual insight into these issues, instead of the usual internet speculation.


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## gigfy

Grades of Chinese watches page added.

This is from a post I've written (and edited) many times. Feel free to correct anything or make changes.

Cheers,
gigfy


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## Chascomm

Great work Gigfy!

(I might insert some cross-references if I can find the time)

Great work also Ian for the Clone Movements page. I've added a bit on Orient clones, but I hope others can help add some hard facts to this topic.


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## AlbertaTime

Link to Navigating Taobao for Watches tutorial added to On-line Chinese Watch Forums, Private Collections and Other Resources section.


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## Chascomm

AlbertaTime said:


> Link to Navigating Taobao for Watches tutorial added to On-line Chinese Watch Forums, Private Collections and Other Resources section.


Thanks! A very useful addition to the resources page :-!


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## gigfy

Chascomm said:


> Thanks! A very useful addition to the resources page :-!


+1 Thank you for sharing your knowledge AT!

cheers,
gigfy


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## DSLAM

Hey guys, I just added the info from cnmark:thanks regarding official government Chinese watch standards. You can see the page here: http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Official_Chinese_Mechanical_Watch_Standards
I added a link to it from the Table of Contents as well under Other Resources.
Only problem I had was that the Wiki does not allow uploading of PDFs for some reason. :rodekaart 
So, I'm not sure how to make the actual PDF available. Can it be hosted somewhere? It's 15 pages so I decided not to upload each page as a separate jpg for obvious reasons ;-)


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## DSLAM

Oh, and please change it or make suggestions as needed. This was my first time doing this. :-d


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## nderwater

DSLAM said:


> Only problem I had was that the Wiki does not allow uploading of PDFs for some reason so I'm not sure how to make the actual PDF available.


The file has been added. Thanks!


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## DSLAM

Just a note, I updated the Alpha page on the Chinese Watch Industry Wiki here: http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Alpha


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## Chascomm

Thanks!


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## rexscates

Can someone add Semdu Watches information?
I don't want to as I might be considered Bias.
All the information is on my website.
-Rex


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## DSLAM

Hi Rex, since no one has responded maybe it would be ok for you to add a basic entry. If not, somebody please comment. 
I would think that as long as you dont make it into a sales pitch (which I dont think you would), but rather add factual info it should be fine. 

Anybody feel otherwise? 

If you prefer, you could send me the info and I could post it as well I guess. :think:


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## nderwater

Rex - please feel free to add your info. As long as it's fairly objective and doesn't read like an advertisement, I don't think anyone will mind.


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## Chascomm

*Cecil Purnell is back in*

Toholio has re-created the Cecil Purnell page and given his reasons in the Cecil Purnell thread on this forum. I've added a link to the thread on the CP wiki entry to hopefully head off any more hasty guerilla actions.

By the way Toholio, nice work on the headings on the Tourbillon page. Feel free to reformat as many pages as you like :-!


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## Martin_B

*Re: Cecil Purnell is back in*

Is this page not mentioned on the "Intro" page on purpose?

Regards,

Martin


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## nderwater

*Re: Cecil Purnell is back in*

Be advised that our friends at InvWG have complained about the content of their page. I am reviewing the article to ensure that it is objective in tone and factual to the best extent that we have been able to determine.


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## Chascomm

*Re: Cecil Purnell is back in*

I think you've done a good job of levelling the bumps out of my prose. Much more objective tone now. Beyond that, they're going to have to provide some specific reasons for concern.

It's all a bit Panerai, isn't it?


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## Chascomm

*Re: Cecil Purnell is back in*

The wiki seems to be down right now. Any idea why?


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## nderwater

*Re: Cecil Purnell is back in*

It's working for me - let me know if you are still unable to pull it up.


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## Chascomm

*Sorry for the panic...*



nderwater said:


> It's working for me - let me know if you are still unable to pull it up.


It's working fine. There was just a few minutes when it was failing to load.

I'm just getting jumpy.


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## nderwater

*Re: Sorry for the panic...*

*Notice:* Due to the recent surge in spam activity, I've had to lock down the account creation function. If you would like to be able to contribute to the wiki, please send me or Chascomm a PM requesting access and we'll set up a user account for you.


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## Pawl_Buster

*Re: Sorry for the panic...*



nderwater said:


> *Notice:* Due to the recent surge in spam activity, I've had to lock down the account creation function. If you would like to be able to contribute to the wiki, please send me or Chascomm a PM requesting access and we'll set up a user account for you.


Thanks for that. I'm just surprised it took this long, given the special interests of some folks :-d


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## Chascomm

*PTS Resources entry updated*

The entry for PTS Resources has been updated to reflect the latest catalogue.


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## chrisbo28

*Re: PTS Resources entry updated*

Would someone mind adding the Hangzhou 6311 to the movement section? It is not common movement but if someon looks for a decent chinese clone movement...:roll:


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## Chascomm

*Re: PTS Resources entry updated*

Done


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## Martin_B

*Nanning page updated*

While looking for something I found a factory page for Nanning, which was not on the Wiki:
Nanning Watch Factory

I took the liberty of adding it there.

Regards,

Martin


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## Chascomm

*Re: Nanning page updated*

Thanks. Much appreciated.


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## Chascomm

*Links to private collections*

Saskwatch's VCM (Vintage Chinese Mechanicals) collection has been gathered under as single thread in the Image Gallery sub-forum, with links to the original threads.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f101/my-vcms-545478.html

I have added a link to the VCM thread on the Wiki under Forums and Other Resources.

On-line Forums - Chinese Watch Industry Wiki

Are there any other private collections that our members would like to share via the Wiki?


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## farseer

Thank for share.


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## Chascomm

I've added a page for TechnoSablier; a Swiss company finishing Chinese ebauches for the Swiss Made market:

TechnoSablier - Chinese Watch Industry Wiki


----------



## Chascomm

*An Invicta question*

The following remark has been posted on the Wiki:
"Eyal Lalo, is a descendent of founder Raphael Picard is incorrect. Please provide documentation to verifiy the claim"

Does anybody have any information to volunteer to clear this up?

On the one hand, the company owner's ancestry is incidental to the reason for the wiki entry, which is specifically to cover Invicta's links to the Chinese watch industry; on the other hand, we need to make sure that whatever information that is presented is accurate.

The Invicta Watch Group have consistently stated that Lalo is Picard's descendant. I wouldn't have thought this was a matter to be contested. I guess beneath the question is the deeper question of whether the present Invicta company popped up out of nowhere like a mushroom and claimed a defunct old Swiss brand. My instinct is to change the wording to say that Eyal Lalo 'claims' to be a descendant of Raphael Picard ... and then wait for the lawyers to call. :roll:


----------



## IanC

*Re: An Invicta question*

I was checking the seagull page but i noticed that there is no mention of the TY2826 movement? Is it listed as a different model?


----------



## Chascomm

*Re: An Invicta question*



IanC said:


> I was checking the seagull page but i noticed that there is no mention of the TY2826 movement? Is it listed as a different model?


TY28 is the export code for ST16. I'm not sure if the 26 suffix is the same.


----------



## IanC

*Re: An Invicta question*



Chascomm said:


> TY28 is the export code for ST16. I'm not sure if the 26 suffix is the same.


Oh that explains a lot. I tried to edit the wiki to put that bit of info in, but strangely theres no edit button .


----------



## Chascomm

*Re: An Invicta question*



IanC said:


> Oh that explains a lot. I tried to edit the wiki to put that bit of info in, but strangely theres no edit button .


You need to sign in (so that the changes can be tracked). You may need to register a new account.


----------



## marzook

*Re: An Invicta question*



Chascomm said:


> The Invicta Watch Group have consistently stated that Lalo is Picard's descendant. I wouldn't have thought this was a matter to be contested. I guess beneath the question is the deeper question of whether the present Invicta company popped up out of nowhere like a mushroom and claimed a defunct old Swiss brand. My instinct is to change the wording to say that Eyal Lalo 'claims' to be a descendant of Raphael Picard ... and then wait for the lawyers to call. :roll:


Simply write the truth as you know it: According to statements of company`s (spokesman, website, etc), Lalo is a descendant of...
BTW, "Eyal Lalo" is an israely name. Could may well be a descendant of european immigrates to Isreal.


----------



## ecthelion

Stuhrling Original's caliber ST-90150 is most definitely a skeletonized Chinese Standard movement (I wasn't able to add it to the page on Sturhling Original, so I figured I'd post it here so someone who can edit the page can add it him/her self). I know this because 1) this caliber is what's used in the Stuhrling Original 'Montague,' and it is definitely a Chinese Standard movement (albeit a very well-finished one) and 2) I have actually modded this particular watch with hands from a pocketwatch purchased from one of those eBay "mushroom brands", which also definitely used a (lower-quality) skeletonized Chinese Standard movement.


----------



## Chascomm

ecthelion said:


> Stuhrling Original's caliber ST-90150 is most definitely a skeletonized Chinese Standard movement (I wasn't able to add it to the page on Sturhling Original, so I figured I'd post it here so someone who can edit the page can add it him/her self). I know this because 1) this caliber is what's used in the Stuhrling Original 'Montague,' and it is definitely a Chinese Standard movement (albeit a very well-finished one) and 2) I have actually modded this particular watch with hands from a pocketwatch purchased from one of those eBay "mushroom brands", which also definitely used a (lower-quality) skeletonized Chinese Standard movement.


Thanks for that :-! I'll add it in.

Sorry that you're having trouble registering. I'm sure the admin is not far away.


----------



## nderwater

Hi guys - the wiki was recently infected with malware via a PHP-injection attack. I've spent the afternoon repairing the site and it should now be clean. Please report it here if you notice any further issues with the wiki. Thanks!


----------



## tony1951

I am getting warnings from Google when I try to access it five days after your last post.

That's a shame. I hate those weirdos that mess up useful stuff like that.


----------



## dasmi

Malware warnings. Really wish someone would fix that.


----------



## timesofplenty

I'd like to see some information as to how long some (all) of the companies have been producing watch cases.
The wiki makes it seem as if this is a new development.
Hong Kong/China watch and watch case production aren't anything recent. I've had high-quality 1960s Bulova watches and others with Hong Kong cases.


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## IanC

I know this has been mentioned before but google is STILL reporting it as an attack site. Can the site owner, whoever it is, let google know it's not an attack site so the warning can be removed?


----------



## Lemper

IanC said:


> I know this has been mentioned before but google is STILL reporting it as an attack site. Can the site owner, whoever it is, let google know it's not an attack site so the warning can be removed?


Yeah, but it takes time usually!


----------



## Lemper

dasmi said:


> Malware warnings. Really wish someone would fix that.


Not showing for me...what browser are you using?


----------



## mmacleodbrown

Generally are the BJWAF movements considered better quality than their sea-gull variants? Im asking as Im about to buy a SB18-6 based watch and Im struggling to find anything about it?


----------



## monsieurxu

mmacleodbrown said:


> Generally are the BJWAF movements considered better quality than their sea-gull variants? Im asking as Im about to buy a SB18-6 based watch and Im struggling to find anything about it?


Hi mmacleodbrown, I refrained from replying initially since I'm guessing the watch you are buying is mine, but since no one has responded, please see the discussion here -
https://www.watchuseek.com/f72/brand-new-sb18-movement-beijing-865182.html

Let me know if you need anything cleared up and I will ask Beijing.

As for quality, BWAF movements tend to be more interesting and beautiful compared to their equivalent Seagull movements - eg the SB18 vs the ST 18. They are 100% Beijing developed as well.


----------



## summerhu

except Wiki, Smay, Snobi, Curren...are there any other famous Chinese brand watch?


----------



## Pawl_Buster

summerhu said:


> except Wiki, Smay, Snobi, Curren...are there any other famous Chinese brand watch?


Sorry; I've never heard of those brands.
Famous would be Sea-Gull, Shanghai, Beijing, etc.


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## RON in PA

The Wiki article seems to have disappeared.


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## DSLAM

You're right. When I go there it says: "*Parse error*: syntax error, unexpected T_NAMESPACE, expecting T_STRING in */home/ingenue/tractionink.com/watch_wiki/includes/Namespace.php* on line *49"*


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## Chascomm

Ian hasn't posted here for a while but I've seent him a message to see what he knows.

Otherwise if anybody knows how to recover a cached copy of the entire wiki and how to reproduce it elsewhere, now would be a good time to do so.


----------



## LCheapo

Oops, just opened a new thread on the same subject. The webarchive.org has a copy from last september.


----------



## temporal-monitor

Quite a few pages are archived at Archive.is


----------



## walkersp

LCheapo said:


> Oops, just opened a new thread on the same subject. The webarchive.org has a copy from last september.


Exactly, I've been accessing the wiki through https://web.archive.org/web/2013091...nink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

But it would very nice to see the wiki fully restored as it's such an useful source of information


----------



## phillip.wareham

hi, everyone. I'm a brit now living in guangzhou. i can speak, read and write fairly well, so while I'm here looking for info on possible purchases and a project to build a watch from parts, i may also be useful in some way. Phil

Sent from my MI 2SC using Tapatalk now Free


----------



## WesB

Chascomm said:


> This is the Wiki Sticky :-d
> 
> If you've got a question regarding Chinese watches, here is a good place to start; and it can only get better if you contribute what you know ;-)
> 
> The Chinese Watch Industry Wiki!
> http://www.tractionink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
> 
> (thanks Ian)


Bad link


----------



## Chascomm

WesB said:


> Bad link


Yes. It has been noted in the later posts on this thread. I've left the sticky here for now in the vain hope that one of our members will find the time and energy to recreate the wiki on another site. It won't be me.


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## LCheapo

So, there is no hope for reestablishing contact with the original wiki host (Ian?)? It seems all that is required is to get mysql working again on the server. I tried to put a copy on Google sites, but there is no easy way to clone a whole site. I think I have a local copy, but that's as far as I got. Does anybody have any idea on how to easily recreate the structure on google sites? The archived site used php, and all saved pages are of the form 'index.php?title=Sunboro' (for example).


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

Chascomm said:


> I've left the sticky here for now in the vain hope that one of our members will find the time and energy to recreate the wiki on another site. It won't be me.


Folks, I have decided to step up to the plate here. I just registered the domain name chinesewatchwiki.net, and have installed MediaWiki on a server that I was already operating for some other sites. It's a fairly low end server which I mostly use for serving static webpages, so the performance may not be fantastic (though I've tried to improve it where I can, e.g. I am using SQLite instead of MySQL, which will also make the wiki less fragile), but this let me get things up and running straight away for minimal cost. If it turns out we need hosting which is a little more "fang zhen" then if people are happy to chip in for proper hosting somewhere I am more than happy to migrate the wiki there. In fact, that might be best in the long run - if the wiki is on its own server, separate from my own personal websites, then I can happily share the server login details with some of the moderators here, and if I get hit by a bus we won't have to start from scratch _yet again_.

Because I do not have access to the original database, the only way to repopulate the wiki with all the old pages is to manually copy and paste things. I have done this for a few articles already, but there is a strong bias toward VCM related pages and not stuff on mushroom brands, OEMs, etc, because of where my own interests lie. I am happy to migrate _all_ the other stuff over eventually, but it will take time and I will prioritise things as I see fit. If you want to see your favourite content moved across sooner rather than later, you are very welcome to pitch in and help out yourself to get things across faster.

I have changed the name from "Chinese Watch Industry Wiki" to "Chinese Watch Wiki" (and knocked up a nice new logo with a tongji diagram), simply because to me it seemed more to the point, easier for folks to remember, quicker to type, etc. I hope this hasn't upset anyone, particularly the person who named the original wiki, if indeed they are still around anywhere. If anybody has especially strong feelings on this, I may be persuaded to change it back.

In principle, me ressurecting the wiki in this way, by copying and pasting articles from the old one, is only kosher with the permission of the individuals who wrote the original articles. This is because, as far as I can see, the old wiki was not set up in such a way that by submitting material the submitter agreed to it being licensed in a particular way, and as such the copyright for each individual page is still with the corresponding individual author. It's not practically possible for me to get permission for everything in this way - I have gone ahead in the good faith assumption that the original authors wrote what they did out of a willingness to share knowledge on a subject they love with a wider audience, and as such would rather see the material moved to a new site than languish in obscurity on archive.org. If anybody here is an original author of anything and they object to the way this has been done, please speak up. I will happily and immediately remove the copied page(s), and then happily rewrite them in my own words. On a similar note, I have configured the new wiki such that submissions become licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license (there is an agreement notice about this above the "submit" button on edit pages). This esssentiallly lets people do whatever they want with the material on the wiki as long as they acknowledge the wiki as the original source, do not make any money from what they do, and give these same rights to users of any material they produce using the wiki's material. This seems, to me, like a suitable license for this endeavour, but if anybody who envisions themselves being a frequent contributor would prefer a different CC license, then once again I may be persuaded to change this setting by a reasonable argument.

I have a lot of plans for revamping and reorganising the wiki, adding lots more information and making it easier to navigate. But I'm also aware that I'm a relative newcomer to this forum, which is strongly associated with the wiki, and that other people here may have their own strong opinions on the way the wiki should look and what should be in it. I don't want to be seen as charging in and single-handedly taking over what should be a community resource, so I will try to discuss my plans openly in this thread (or in another thread if people think that is more appropriate) over the next few days as I start trying to put content up and structure things nicely. I will welcome discussion and opinions from other members on how things are proceeding.

I hope other people are as excited as I am about having the wiki up and running again. Let's work together to make the wiki into something even greater than it already is! (and the old wiki _was_ great - its article on the Chinese Standard Movement is what convinced me to buy my first VCM)


----------



## DSLAM

Hi J.F., that sounds great to me. Sounds like a plan. I say go for it. I remember I added a tiny bit of original content before. I'm not much help on the back-end of things but I'm happy to edit some when it goes back live.


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

DSLAM said:


> Hi J.F., that sounds great to me. Sounds like a plan. I say go for it. I remember I added a tiny bit of original content before. I'm not much help on the back-end of things but I'm happy to edit some when it goes back live.


Hi DSLAM, thanks for the encouragement! The wiki should be live now, if it's not working for you, please let me know. It might be some kind of DNS propagation issue, which will sort itself out in time.

It seems like when this wiki was first launched, there was some popular support for the idea of a movement database. I created a page today which is in this spirit. I have filled in just some basics to get things started, and will work on it more in days to come, but it would be fantastic if people would help to fill it out by adding their favourite movements to the list.

I'm going to start a similar list of brands soon, too. My hope is that the wiki becomes densely interconnected in a way that is very conducive to interesting random walks. If you look up a particular movement, you sould be able to click on the name of the factory that made it, and find a list of all the movements they made. Then you can click on one of those movements and find a list of all watch brands using that movement, and so on.


----------



## DSLAM

Wow, that looks great. I want to start browsing it again. I'm sure the fellow watch nuts will want to start adding more info too now. And yes, I like the idea of that movement section too, fantastic. I think you should start a new posting in the group announcing the new incarnation of the wiki so people will know about it.


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

DSLAM said:


> I think you should start a new posting in the group announcing the new incarnation of the wiki so people will know about it.


I think that's a good idea. I hope the reason that nobody has commented so far is just because nobody has noticed this conversation up in the Wiki Sticky. After this post, I will make another one in the general forum. I have also put a link to the new wiki in my signature, so hopefully people will notice that too.

I have been pretty busy working on the forum today, and have made lots of changes. I want to detail them here so that people know what has happened, can offer feedback on the changes I've made, and know where to contribute.

First up, there are now three database-style pages which I hope will become exhaustive lists of the important factories, movements and brands in the industry, with basic details. The pages are:

List of Chinese watch factories 
List of Chinese watch movements 
List of Chinese watch brands 
I have tried to set the ball rolling with these pages, but there is a _lot_ more work to do, and a lot of things I don't know. But I hope that the stuff I've put there so far makes the format clear so that other members can quicklky and easily get started contributing stuff they know. Please get stuck in!

Secondly, in response to some comments I read right at the beginning of this thread about how the wiki was not convenient to casually browse through like a magazine, I have made three "portal" pages, which are linked to from the main page:

Vintage Chinese watch portal 
Modern Chinese watch portal 
High-end Chinese watch portal 
The idea is for these pages to contain links to important articles on their relevant topics, so people can easily browse within a particular subject. I have no problem with people adding additional portals if there are coherent subjects other than these which people think we will accumulate a lot of articles for. At the moment, the three portals above are _very_ rough. The vintage portal is the most developed so far (surprise, surprise), but even that is still just a bunch of links, but they are at least organised into sections. There are very few links on the high-end and modern portals. It would be _great_ if people who are knowledgable and enthusiastic about these subjects could help to develop these portals - even if it's throwing down some organised links to articles which you think _should_ exist but don't yet, and leave them for someone more knowledgable to write.

Thirdly, for the sake of people who _don't_ have a particular topic that they want to explore, I have created a very broad and general page, called History of Chinese watchmaking. I have thrown this together very quickly by writing the introductory paragraph myself and then just copying and pasting stuff from the other articles. But I would like to see this article receive a lot of polish in time. The idea is for it to summarise the history of Chinese watchmaking, from the WuXing to today, in such a way that the overall story is very interesting and easy to read so that people can end up with a high-level picture of the industry without getting bogged down in details, and maybe then they'll have a better idea of what they'd like to read about (and from there they can hit up the portals). Like the portals, the vintage sections of this article are much better developed than the later ones. It would be great if people could contribute to this - if nothing else, it would be great if somebody with a really good understanding of the history could confirm that the 3-part division I have used in the current article is basically sound.

Fourth, and I'm a little nervous about this, I have rewritten the main page. I hope this causes no offence to the original author, if indeed they are still around. From my perspective, the original main page was a little strange, in that it was very Swiss-centric. The very first sentence on the very first page of the Chinese Watch Industry Wiki was a statement about the Swiss watch industry! The primary perspective seemed to be considering the rise of Chinese watch manufacturers in the 21st and the threat they posed to established European manufacturers, and how this was "frightening" for timepiece collectors (a very strange sentiment, for me). The main page text made _no_ reference to vintage watches at all, though of course actual articles did. I don't want to suggest that these sorts of concerns have no place in the wiki - they _do_. But personally I don't feel like they should be placed front and center. The new main page attempts to quickly introduce what I think are all the most important facets of the Chinese watch industry, of the past and today, and emphasises that the wiki is concerned with _all_ of them. I strongly welcome feedback on the new main page, and if the majority of members feel like I have changed it in the wrong direction then I am more than happy to discuss this and revise the page in line with the community consensus.

I _think_ that's all! I am probably going to take it fairly easy tomorrow and not write too much, but if anybody has any problems with the wiki, do comment here, I will probably still see them. At the moment, anybody should be able to sign up for an account and start editing. When I find the time I am going to configure things so that new accounts must be approved by an admin - I wish this weren't necessary, but sadly I know from experience that it _is_. If I leave things as is, it's only a matter of time before spam bots start signing up and ruining things. I strongly encourage the members here who are interested in contributing to sign up now, before I put the restriction in place, just because that will make things easier for you!

Oh, one other thing - the new wiki has new pictures yet! If you have good pictures of watches, movements etc. which are relevant to any of the articles which are currently there, _and you are happy with them being CC by-nc-sa licensed_, then please upload them!

*EDIT*: If anybody feels like spending some time working on the movement list, there is a lot of great information in the forum here. If anybody feels like spending some time on the factory list, a good source is this page on Saskawatch's site. Incidentally, I just noticed that the introductory text for that page expounds the same three-part division of the history of Chinese watchmaking that I jused in the wiki's history page. I am absolutely certain that I read this sometime in past and this is where I got this understanding from, so thanks and credit to Saskawatch!


----------



## LCheapo

Very nice! Thanks a lot! If you have a copy of all the old pages, could you throw a link to each of them on the new map page, and either link that or better even put that list on the main page? That would really help I think.


----------



## AlbertaTime

Great job, JF!! Thank you. Now linked at AMCHPR.


----------



## soviet

Many thanks for your new effort! 
For some unknown reasons, my connection to WUS has been very slow for the last couple of years, and the links to your new site is broken at the moment.


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

soviet said:


> Many thanks for your new effort!
> For some unknown reasons, my connection to WUS has been very slow for the last couple of years, and the links to your new site is broken at the moment.


Sadly, the wiki is down right now due to some problem with the host provider. This started a few hours ago. This happens very occasionally, it's cheap hosting and they get hit by DDoS attacks once or twice a year. It should be back up sometime in the next 24 hours, sorry about the inconvenience. 

*EDIT*: The wiki is back! It was down for something like 5 hours.


----------



## saskwatch

Thank you, J. F. Sebastian, for reviving the wiki. I'm willing to help, but before I go much further I have a few questions.

What is the preferred spelling: Seagull, Sea Gull, Sea-Gull? Even on the company website the spelling is inconsistent.

For the list of movements, should we list different variants of the same movement, e.g. SM1A and SM1A-K, together or separately?

I can add exhaustive factory and brand name lists. Are we aiming to be as complete as possible, or should we include major names only? Alphabetical order?


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

saskwatch said:


> Thank you, J. F. Sebastian, for reviving the wiki. I'm willing to help, but before I go much further I have a few questions.
> 
> What is the preferred spelling: Seagull, Sea Gull, Sea-Gull? Even on the company website the spelling is inconsistent.
> 
> For the list of movements, should we list different variants of the same movement, e.g. SM1A and SM1A-K, together or separately?
> 
> I can add exhaustive factory and brand name lists. Are we aiming to be as complete as possible, or should we include major names only? Alphabetical order?


Excellent questions, Saskwatch, I have been thinking about these kinds of things myself. I welcome input from others, but here are my thoughts so far:

On Seagull/Sea Gull/Sea-Gull: I started out using "Seagull" when I was trying to quickly get as much stuff up on the wiki as possible, so that's currently (I think) the majority spelling. But I did notice pretty early on that a lot of the old wiki articles used "Sea-Gull". I am surprised and a little dismayed to hear that their own website is inconsistent. I suppose the authoritative source would be whatever their registered business name in China is: I don't know if that's easy to find out (on a similar note: the old wiki calls them "Tianjin Sea-Gull Watch Factory", Wikipedia calls them "Tianjin Seagull Watch Group" and usseagull.com calls them "Tianjin Seagull Watch Co., Ltd." - ignoring the hyphenation issue, is it Factory, Group or Company?). It is possible to make, e.g., the wiki page "Tianjin Seagull" redirect to "Tianjin Sea-Gull", so that contributors can link to either without thinking too much and readers won't really notice, but it would be nice to aim for consistent usage.

A similar question revolves around the placing of hyphens in movement names. For now I have just been copying whatever source I am using, but there is probably inconsistency among them. Do we use A581 or A-581? ST5 or ST-5? Do different factories have different conventions on this?

With the list of movements: At the moment, the SM1A and SM1A-K are listed separately, but I had imagined making both link to the same page (with the second one possibly linking to a specific section of that page). However, I am starting to reconsider this, because it will seriously expand the list in some cases (e.g., the old wiki lists 9 different variants of the ST19) for relatively little benefit. So perhaps we should just list the "base" model in all cases (SM1A, ST5, ST19) and let the individual articles expand things out (I noticed this morning that you corrected and expanded my list of ST5 variants in the ST5 article, which I'm most grateful for).

With factories and brands, I think we should aim for completeness, and alphabetical order seems to make sense (I know that so far I've not alphabetised those lists). I think even minor brands should show up in the list, but I expect that only major brands will end up having articles written about them (unless of course there are some especially interesting minor brands). There are a few things I have been thinking about on the factory front:

One is how to name the article for factories/companies which have changed their name a lot. Following the old wiki, the new wiki's article for Seagull is entitled "Tianjin Seagull" (though see my question above about what their full name really is), but whenever I link to it I've been careful to use the text "Tianjin Watch Factory" in articles about movements or brands from that time, and "Seagull" for articles about modern movements. I think this is a good practice. Of course, we could just as easily have called the article "Tianjin Watch Factory" and still kept the convention of using context-appropriate link text. Which ones makes more sense? Using a factory's oldest name seems to make more sense than using its latest name, only because the oldest name never changes while the newest name might. But by that convention, Seagull's page should actually be called "Tianjin WuYi Watch Factory", which is neither the name they are most well-known by or the name under which they did their best-known work. Factory renaming seems to have been fairly common in the 50s and 60s, so this is not just an issue which affects Tianjin/Seagull.

The other is what to do about situations like Shanghai, where there is a No. 2 factory, a No. 3 factory, etc. I do think it is best to list these separately in the table, because they have distinct dates of operation and distinct factory codes, and it's best to separate those out. But I don't know if those entries should link to separate pages, or if all the Shanghai factory links should point to the "Shanghai Watch Factory" page and we should just list all the other factories there. I'm uncertain on this because I don't actually have any understanding of to what extent No. 2, No. 3 etc. were/are just extra manufacturing facilities for "the one true" Shanghai Watch Factory or were actually distinct and autonomous organizations who got those names simply because all factories in Shanghai were given a name of the form "Shanghai Watch Factory No. X". Linking them all to one page sends the message that they are all basically parts of the same whole, and I don't know if that's true.


----------



## J. F. Sebastian

J. F. Sebastian said:


> A similar question revolves around the placing of hyphens in movement names. For now I have just been copying whatever source I am using, but there is probably inconsistency among them. Do we use A581 or A-581? ST5 or ST-5? Do different factories have different conventions on this?


Oh dear, oh dear. I was just looking over this great post on early Shanghai movements, with the plan of integrating that information into the wiki. The 2nd entry is:

*A-581 *
1958-1967
dials w. applied indicators appeared around 1964
_A-581_ 1958-1963 
_A581_ 1963-1965 
_581_ 1966-1967 

So it looks like it was hyphenated originally, but then after 5 years they dropped the hyphen?! And then 2 years later they took a year off and when they came back decided to drop the A too? This is worse than Seagull vs Sea-Gull!

It's also unclear to me to what extent that list is tracking movements and to what extent it is tracking watch models. Sometimes it's very clear, e.g. there is an SS1 entry and it lists 1120, 1523, 1524, etc. under it. Other times it's not so clear, e.g. there is an entry for A-582, but it seems likely that this is actually a watch model, which is just the A-581 watch with lume and not a new movement? Maybe the answer is hidden in here. Lots and lots of work to do!


----------



## soviet

南京手表廠（26）
上世纪六十年代，手表做为高消费进入中国普通市民生活。年青人参加エ作后还是买不起手表的。降低手表价格，市場无穷大，南京手表廠看准商機应运而生，
1955年2月几家私营商店集资建成江南造钟厂股份有限公司筹备处。1956年改名江南造钟厂股份有限公司。
1958年改名“紫金山造钟厂”。 主要生产闹钟，地址南京中山门外四方城1号。
1958-1960年开始研制“七一”手表； 
1959－1960年研制生产“紫金山”手表。“紫金山”表，机芯是“粗機粗馬”機芯，6鉆，型号为：“SN1”。 后被轻工部列为定点生产经济表的厂家。企业代号为：“SN”。生产了大量廉价的“紫金山”牌手表，外表看不出與其他表的区別，投放市場后很受广大人民群众欢迎，滿足了低工资人们的需求。


但是這種手表精度低，故障率高，尽菅价格低，但不能载，所以很快被市場淘汰。但确是收藏家追求的目标。.
钟山牌手表的前身是“紫金山” 牌手表， 1968年前后在SN1基础上又研制了，“粗機细马”9鉆機芯，“SN2”型。由于改为细马所以精度大为提高，增加到9鉆，故障率大为降低，基本上达到可载程度，
1971年,手表和闹钟分厂经营,正式成立南京手表厂.
用SN2组装的手表1968年更名为：“鐘山”牌。从此开始了南京手表廠的大发展，钟山牌手表在全国打开銷路。目前該表存世量很大。随后該廠又研制了17钻“SN3”男表机芯，该机芯为细机细马，形似统机，又不是统机，用其机芯装配不少中型“钟山”表。根据市场需要又研制出“SN4”女式细機细马機芯，生产不少女式“钟山”表。
总之，南京“钟山”表存世量很大，很容易收集到。
由于厂址在紫金山明萧陵神道上，故2006年10月搬迁到城北伏家厂128号。
1974年左右生产定型的九钻钟山表，钟山表生产步入成熟期。
1976－1984年，钟山表鼎盛时期，1984年年产量达到220万只。
1986年,以钟山表为龙头,以南京手表厂为主体成立了南京手表工业公司.该厂是轻工部和南京市定点生产手表的重点骨干企业.现有生产设备,仪器3000余台(套),其中大型,精密,稀有设备仪器89台(套),通用设备,仪器1209台(套),手表加工与检测的专用设备,仪器959台(套). 拥有3000多名职工的老厂。生产的”钟山”手表是国产5大名表之一.
主要产品有：钟山牌系列机械手表；照相机快门；电子表；9钻机械系列手表及表机芯(单机、单日历),0钻系列机械手表机机芯(单机、单历),17钻系列机械手表及机芯(单机单日历、双日历),17钻系列手表及机芯,钟表仪器设备、材料、元器件等。
1990年曾风靡一时的“钟山表”停产。
1990年与台商联合组成：台发钟表有限公司，开始生产“时友”牌手表。
南京手表厂的手表收藏主要应集中在：试制品“七一”表；早期产品“紫金山”。两个品种。当然四块专用机芯不能少。SN1机芯（紫金山）；SN2机芯（钟山）SN3（时友）
SN4（钟山女）。南京手表厂产品没有统一机芯表。
=================================================================================

Nanjing Watch factory

It is mentioned in this article that the SN1 is a 6 jewels movement. I alway thought it was a 5 jewels one. The earliest Roamer copy movement is not mentioned.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Thank you, Soviet! I have just quickly updated the movement list to include all the SN* models which were missing. Later tonight I will read through the Google translation more carefully and add any further info on these movements or on the factory which I can find.

I quite enjoyed the way the different SN movements were described (or at least Google's rendition of it)! The SN1 is "rough machine, rough horse", the SN2 is "rough machine, fine horse", and finally the SN3 is "fine machine, fine horse". :-d


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## J. F. Sebastian

Soviet, can you please confirm that I have understood the following correctly?

From 1958-1960, Naning made watches under a brand that Google translates as "July". I think the hanzi is “七一” and the pinyin is "qiyi"? Could be wrong. No details on movement used.
From 1959-1960, Nanjing made watches with the SN1 movement under a brand that Google translates as "purple". I think the hanzi is "紫金山" and the pinyin is "zijinshan"? Could be wrong.
From 1968-1990, Nanjing made watches with the SN2 movement under the brand "Zhongshan".
There is also an SN3 movement, but I'm not sure when it was made? In the 1990s it was used in some "friendship with Taiwan" watches, but I think the movement must be older than that?
There is also an SN4 movement, made for women's watches, but again I am not sure when it was made.

谢谢!


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## saskwatch

J. F. Sebastian said:


> Excellent questions, Saskwatch, I have been thinking about these kinds of things myself. I welcome input from others, but here are my thoughts so far:
> 
> On Seagull/Sea Gull/Sea-Gull: I started out using "Seagull" when I was trying to quickly get as much stuff up on the wiki as possible, so that's currently (I think) the majority spelling. But I did notice pretty early on that a lot of the old wiki articles used "Sea-Gull". I am surprised and a little dismayed to hear that their own website is inconsistent. I suppose the authoritative source would be whatever their registered business name in China is: I don't know if that's easy to find out (on a similar note: the old wiki calls them "Tianjin Sea-Gull Watch Factory", Wikipedia calls them "Tianjin Seagull Watch Group" and usseagull.com calls them "Tianjin Seagull Watch Co., Ltd." - ignoring the hyphenation issue, is it Factory, Group or Company?). It is possible to make, e.g., the wiki page "Tianjin Seagull" redirect to "Tianjin Sea-Gull", so that contributors can link to either without thinking too much and readers won't really notice, but it would be nice to aim for consistent usage.
> 
> A similar question revolves around the placing of hyphens in movement names. For now I have just been copying whatever source I am using, but there is probably inconsistency among them. Do we use A581 or A-581? ST5 or ST-5? Do different factories have different conventions on this?
> 
> With the list of movements: At the moment, the SM1A and SM1A-K are listed separately, but I had imagined making both link to the same page (with the second one possibly linking to a specific section of that page). However, I am starting to reconsider this, because it will seriously expand the list in some cases (e.g., the old wiki lists 9 different variants of the ST19) for relatively little benefit. So perhaps we should just list the "base" model in all cases (SM1A, ST5, ST19) and let the individual articles expand things out (I noticed this morning that you corrected and expanded my list of ST5 variants in the ST5 article, which I'm most grateful for).
> 
> With factories and brands, I think we should aim for completeness, and alphabetical order seems to make sense (I know that so far I've not alphabetised those lists). I think even minor brands should show up in the list, but I expect that only major brands will end up having articles written about them (unless of course there are some especially interesting minor brands). There are a few things I have been thinking about on the factory front:
> 
> One is how to name the article for factories/companies which have changed their name a lot. Following the old wiki, the new wiki's article for Seagull is entitled "Tianjin Seagull" (though see my question above about what their full name really is), but whenever I link to it I've been careful to use the text "Tianjin Watch Factory" in articles about movements or brands from that time, and "Seagull" for articles about modern movements. I think this is a good practice. Of course, we could just as easily have called the article "Tianjin Watch Factory" and still kept the convention of using context-appropriate link text. Which ones makes more sense? Using a factory's oldest name seems to make more sense than using its latest name, only because the oldest name never changes while the newest name might. But by that convention, Seagull's page should actually be called "Tianjin WuYi Watch Factory", which is neither the name they are most well-known by or the name under which they did their best-known work. Factory renaming seems to have been fairly common in the 50s and 60s, so this is not just an issue which affects Tianjin/Seagull.
> 
> The other is what to do about situations like Shanghai, where there is a No. 2 factory, a No. 3 factory, etc. I do think it is best to list these separately in the table, because they have distinct dates of operation and distinct factory codes, and it's best to separate those out. But I don't know if those entries should link to separate pages, or if all the Shanghai factory links should point to the "Shanghai Watch Factory" page and we should just list all the other factories there. I'm uncertain on this because I don't actually have any understanding of to what extent No. 2, No. 3 etc. were/are just extra manufacturing facilities for "the one true" Shanghai Watch Factory or were actually distinct and autonomous organizations who got those names simply because all factories in Shanghai were given a name of the form "Shanghai Watch Factory No. X". Linking them all to one page sends the message that they are all basically parts of the same whole, and I don't know if that's true.


From the company website: 天津海鸥表业集团公司. It appears that Seagull is used in the company name more often than not, but the brand name seen most frequently is Sea-Gull. Maybe we should use that as the standard until a more knowledgeable person corrects us?

Factories weren't always consistent in their use of hyphens. I would suggest that the listings of base movements avoid hyphens, but variants on the individual movement pages could have them when appropriate.

Re complete lists: there were dozens of factories and hundreds of brand names -- the lists will be long. In the brand name list I think it would be best to use the factory name(s) when the brand was manufactured.

Re manufacturer articles: It might be best to use the current name of factories/companies that are in business now. For closed factories, the best known name seems appropriate.

Although the Shanghai factories operated under a larger organisation, they should be listed separately. Each had its own history and purpose.


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## saskwatch

J. F. Sebastian said:


> Soviet, can you please confirm that I have understood the following correctly?
> 
> From 1958-1960, Naning made watches under a brand that Google translates as "July". I think the hanzi is "七一" and the pinyin is "qiyi"? Could be wrong. No details on movement used.
> From 1959-1960, Nanjing made watches with the SN1 movement under a brand that Google translates as "purple". I think the hanzi is "紫金山" and the pinyin is "zijinshan"? Could be wrong.
> From 1968-1990, Nanjing made watches with the SN2 movement under the brand "Zhongshan".
> There is also an SN3 movement, but I'm not sure when it was made? In the 1990s it was used in some "friendship with Taiwan" watches, but I think the movement must be older than that?
> There is also an SN4 movement, made for women's watches, but again I am not sure when it was made.
> 
> 谢谢!


I can help with some of it:

"七一" = 71 = qiyi = July 1. I've never seen one.

Zijinshan = Purple Mountain.

SN3 (looks like tongji but not tongji?), "friendship with Taiwan" = Shiyou.

My Shiyou has what I think is an SN5 inside, but it appears that the article is calling it an SN3. Or is the SN5 based on the SN3? :-s

What happened between 1960 and 1968?


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## soviet

J. F. Sebastian said:


> Thank you, Soviet! I have just quickly updated the movement list to include all the SN* models which were missing. Later tonight I will read through the Google translation more carefully and add any further info on these movements or on the factory which I can find.
> 
> I quite enjoyed the way the different SN movements were described (or at least Google's rendition of it)! The SN1 is "rough machine, rough horse", the SN2 is "rough machine, fine horse", and finally the SN3 is "fine machine, fine horse". :-d


I have read a watch repair book that listed all the nick-names of what those parts and componets were called by local guys. It would give a good translator a very hard time to cope with.
SN1 is one of the few pin-lever (粗马，rough horse) movements China ever made.


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## soviet

saskwatch said:


> I can help with some of it:
> 
> "七一" = 71 = qiyi = July 1. I've never seen one.
> 
> Zijinshan = Purple Mountain.
> 
> SN3 (looks like tongji but not tongji?), "friendship with Taiwan" = Shiyou.
> 
> My Shiyou has what I think is an SN5 inside, but it appears that the article is calling it an SN3. Or is the SN5 based on the SN3? :-s
> 
> What happened between 1960 and 1968?


Thanks for your help.

I have a few watches with that SN3 movement. But none of them are signed. Is your watch signed SN5?

Nanjing's best movement could be that Roamer R372 copy similar to Beijing model one's. But it was not mentioned. Pehaps, they were just imported left over ones?


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## saskwatch

soviet said:


> Thanks for your help.
> 
> I have a few watches with that SN3 movement. But none of them are signed. Is your watch signed SN5?
> 
> Nanjing's best movement could be that Roamer R372 copy similar to Beijing model one's. But it was not mentioned. Pehaps, they were just imported left over ones?


The movement inside my Shiyou is not signed, but movements of this design have been called SN5 on the CMW forum. I reread an old thread about it, and it appears that we may be basing the idea that there was an SN5 on what one seller said once.

Of course I don't know, but the Nanjing Roamer-style movement could possibly be imported. There are many other examples of watch factories using outsourced movements and/or parts before manufacturing their own.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Well, as I knew they would, the spambots have already arrived.  Some 16 spam accounts were registered while I slept last night. Three cheers to Saskwatch who responded quickly by blocking all of them and undoing all their revisions. I have temporarily disabled the ability to create new accounts, and I sincerely apologise to any legitimate would-be contributors who are inconvenienced by this. This evening I will try to find time to install the ConfirmAccount extension, which should put an end to this kind of thing, after which I will open account creation up again. Hopefully it won't be too long before things are running like normal again.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Hi folks, a quick update. I have the ConfirmAccount extension installed, but it is dependent upon Mediawiki being able to send email, and I'm having trouble getting that to work. But I'm working on it, and hope to have things running normally ASAP. Sorry again for the delay.


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## J. F. Sebastian

I _think_ that everything should be working now! I have created a dummy account to test the new account confirmation system, and it seemed to work, but I'm not super confident about it because I had to do some ugly hacks to get it working (it turns out the ConfirmAccount extension is not designed to support SQLite ). If you'd like an account at the wiki, please request one and I will endeavour to approve it within 24 hours. If you experience any kind of technical problems, please send me a PM!


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## Seele

JF,

Thanks for your efforts - along with other contributors - in rebuilding the Wiki; I have also done some extremely minor contributions as well.

Judging by pages like that on watch brands, I hope it's alright for me to make a suggestion.

The list is organised in alphabetical order, but when a Chinese name is put in it takes the first place. This may or may not be a major issue, but here is something I would do personally:

Chinese watches were marked in three manners: Roman transliteration, English, and Chinese, and sometimes a particular brand could be marked in more than one way. For instance, Shuangling and Double Rhomb were both used on the watch dial, although I am not sure if examples were marked as such.

Therefore, I wish to make a suggestion of putting the names on the left-most column in a unified format, such as in this transliteration - English - Chinese format. Using the previous example, it would be Shuangling - Double Rhomb - 雙菱 . If any of them was never used, we would either mark it as such (say, in italic) or leave it blank altogether.

I feel that this method has some merits but it'd be interesting to see how fellow members think about it. Thanks!


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## saskwatch

Seele said:


> JF,
> 
> Thanks for your efforts - along with other contributors - in rebuilding the Wiki; I have also done some extremely minor contributions as well.
> 
> Judging by pages like that on watch brands, I hope it's alright for me to make a suggestion.
> 
> The list is organised in alphabetical order, but when a Chinese name is put in it takes the first place. This may or may not be a major issue, but here is something I would do personally:
> 
> Chinese watches were marked in three manners: Roman transliteration, English, and Chinese, and sometimes a particular brand could be marked in more than one way. For instance, Shuangling and Double Rhomb were both used on the watch dial, although I am not sure if examples were marked as such.
> 
> Therefore, I wish to make a suggestion of putting the names on the left-most column in a unified format, such as in this transliteration - English - Chinese format. Using the previous example, it would be Shuangling - Double Rhomb - 雙菱 . If any of them was never used, we would either mark it as such (say, in italic) or leave it blank altogether.
> 
> I feel that this method has some merits but it'd be interesting to see how fellow members think about it. Thanks!


Seele,

Thank you for stepping up and helping with the wiki. I hope you can continue, as you bring a perspective that would greatly enhance its quality. Please make any suggestions you see fit.

Re the brand list: I was thinking about it from a perspective of a non-Chinese-speaking collector. To find information about a brand, I think it would be good to see it as the brand name appears on the watch (be it English, transliteration, or Chinese) in an alphabetical list to make it easier to find. Of course it becomes more difficult when taking Chinese-only and number brands into account. It might be helpful to separate listings for brands with two names, e.g. Shuangling/Double Rhomb.

I hope members of this forum will share their opinions on this and other matters. In the end I'd like the wiki to be as useful as possible.

There's still an enormous amount of work to do, and I invite members to contribute their knowledge. Even if you don't think you know much, there are things that can be done. Adding pictures and improving some (my ;-)) awkward writing comes to mind.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Seele, I also want to thank you for the contributions you've made to the wiki thus far, I have noticed them and I assure you that they are appreciated.

Thanks for your suggestion on the brand list, this is the kind of thing that it's great to have feedback on. I encourage anybody who has an opinion or perspective on this to chime in. For my part, like Saskwatch, I have so far been thinking about things from the perspective of readers with no or minimal Chinese language proficiency (although, for the sake of completeness, when making pages for brands, I have been including the brand name in hanzi in brackets after the pinyin name). I feel like the most likely use-case is that somebody sees a brand name printed on a watch or a photo of a watch, goes to the list, and uses Ctrl-F to search for exactly what is printed on the watch, so we should definitely make sure that this form is always listed.

I do think that maybe Saskwatch is on the right track with proposing that we split up e.g. Shuangling and Double Rhomb, or Chunlei and Budlet (are there many other cases of watches which were produced under both English and Chinese names?). It's probably okay for both listings to point to the same actual article, though. One drawback to this approach is that any changes to the details on manufacturer, movements, years of production, etc. need to be made in two places, and if someone forgets to do this, or is unaware of the alternative brand name, then we can end up with inconsistent data.

I am not averse to hanzi names appearing on the list (we do this for factories in the factory list, after all), but I think the "Shuangling - Double Rhomb - 雙菱" format has a substantial drawback in that (to my knowledge, and I am happy to be proven wrong) the middle component will be "None" for more than 90% of the brands, which seems kind of messy or wasteful.

On something of a related note, we currently have separate tables for vintage brands, modern in-house and modern out-of-house brands. There are a small number of brands which belong in both vintage and modern in-house, e.g. Shanghai, Sea-Gull. At the moment, the exact same information has been copied from the vintage table into the modern table. The sensible course of action, to me, seems to be to fill out the two tables with era appropriate details, e.g. in the vintage table we list the Sea-Gull manufacturer as Tianjin Watch Factory, with ST5 as the movement used and in the modern table we list the manufacturer as Tianjin Seagull Watch Group with ST16, ST19, etc. for the movements. Do people agree with this?


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## Seele

Gentlemen,

I just tried the old link to the old CWI Wiki at tractionink, and found that it's still intact but at web archive org, archived at 23rd October 2013. It might be an idea to download everything (preferably by more than one member) and then put on the new host, with suitable editing and updating.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Seele said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I just tried the old link to the old CWI Wiki at tractionink, and found that it's still intact but at web archive org, archived at 23rd October 2013. It might be an idea to download everything (preferably by more than one member) and then put on the new host, with suitable editing and updating.


A great many, but by no means all, of the articles on the old wiki have indeed already been copied across in this manner, or have had their key information consolidated into new pages. But there are also plenty which have not been copied yet, and I encourage people who want to help with the new wiki to copy across old articles which they would like to see preserved.


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## J. F. Sebastian

Hi folks. I just thought it was time for a bit of an update on the wiki. So far I am quite happy with the progress which has been made on migrating over old material and on adding new information. I want to thank everybody who has contributed to the project, both by actually joining the wiki and editing articles, and also by contributing to threads here on the forum where we try to gather information to put up there, such as the recent "great Tongji documentation drive". Special thanks go to Saskwatch who has worked tireless on the lists of brands, factories and movements. These are starting to look like really exhaustive resources are brilliant (though, of course, there is plenty of scope for more contributions from other members of the community, _especially_ those who are more knowledgable about modern factories and brands, as those parts of these lists are looking less impressive than the vintage parts at the moment).

I thought I'd throw out a few ideas and ask a few questions about the future of the wiki here, for those who want to follow along and/or participate.

First of all, on a fairly unimportant note, today I threw together a new logo for the wiki, and I was curious about what people thought. Here it is full size:










I think it looks pretty cool at this size, but unfortunately Mediawiki's default theme requires the logo be no larger than 160 pixels in either direction, and at this stage it's a bit blury and, I think, less striking. I've set it up on the wiki so people can see how it looks at that size and in that context, but the old logo is there to revert to if people like. I'm keen to know what people think, in particular are people worried that this logo either (i) has uncomfortable political connotations that we don't want associated with the wiki; or (ii) makes the wiki seem only focussed on VCMs and not Chinese watches from all time periods? I worry that either of these may be the case because the logo bears a fairly strong resemblence to old propaganda posters from the Maoist days. Also, the Chinese text at the top is supposed to read "Chinese Watch Wiki". I know the "Chinese Watch" part is correct, but I have no idea if Google has given me a correct transliteration of "wiki", if any Chinese speakers can confirm or correct the current text, I'd appreciate it. I mostly just made this for fun, so if people hate it, plese be frank and I'll change it right back. _*Also, if anybody else has the inclination, please feel absolutely free to design your own logo and post it here. I'm happy to put whichever the logo the community likes most up on the wiki.*_ Just remember the 160px size limit on either dimension.

On to a few more substantial matters...

I think that the Tongji documentation drive has turned out pretty well, we certainly saw some major changes and polish to the Chinese Standard Movement article - and there is no reason to think the work on that article is over! Do people like the idea of having these kind of targetted "drives" on a regular basis? If so, what do we think is a good kind of schedule: weekly? Fortnightly? Monthly? Does anybody have any suggestions for subjects of future drives? Ideally these should be subjects of broad importance or interest which many people in the community are either knowledgable about or interested in.

I also just wanted to let people know that I've updated the Vintage Chinese watch portal somewhat recently and added the following links:

* Vintage Chinese electronic watches
* Vintage Chinese military watches
* Vintage Chinese pocket watches

The first two of these don't exist yet, and the last is just a stub. If anybody knows a bit about these subjects, please feel free to create those pages. With the electronic watches page, I am thinking in particular of Ron's quartz Baoshihua, of the 1979 digital watch made a Qingdao (which I know nothing about, but it's mentioned at the old wiki), and any other watches in that vein. With the military watch page, I am thinking about the famous 24 jewel Shanghai diver, the 1963 PLAAF chronograph and any other well-documented military watches, I am sure there must be more. I imagine all of these pages probably not being an awful lot more than an introductory paragraph or two and a list of links to relevant articles, but if anybody knows enough about these subjects to go into more detail, please feel free!


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## Chascomm

Thanks JF for all the work that you've put into this so far, and thanks also to everybody else who has chipped in. :-!



J. F. Sebastian said:


> ...as those parts of these lists are looking less impressive than the vintage parts at the moment


Iinteresting to see how things have changed. When the old wiki was created, the focus was definitely on the current watch industry because that was perceived to be where the interest lay outside of this forum i.e. person buys watch, discovers that it is made in China, gets curious and hits Google, finds the wiki, tells friends about the joys of Chinese watch ownership. So the historical bits were only included to provide context for the current scene. For example I considered putting together a page on Zhongshan watches but there was no point because they were out of production with no descendents.



> First of all, on a fairly unimportant note, today I threw together a new logo for the wiki, and I was curious about what people thought ... in particular are people worried that this logo either (i) has uncomfortable political connotations that we don't want associated with the wiki; or (ii) makes the wiki seem only focussed on VCMs and not Chinese watches from all time periods?


IMHO, it doesn't strike me as political, and one has to already be familiar with the Tongji to interpret the image as focussing on historical watch production.



> I think that the Tongji documentation drive has turned out pretty well... Do people like the idea of having these kind of targetted "drives" on a regular basis? If so, what do we think is a good kind of schedule: weekly? Fortnightly? Monthly?


It will probably be only a rough schedule anyway, but I think a fortnight is frequent enough to sustain momentum without inducing fatigue, and allows enough time between to unpack the subject indetail with the help of less regular contributors.



> Does anybody have any suggestions for subjects of future drives? Ideally these should be subjects of broad importance or interest which many people in the community are either knowledgable about or interested in.


I'd like to see some detail documented about the history of electric/electronic/quartz watches in China; however I'm aware that it is probably of lesser interest to the broader readership, is a difficult topic to research and the later quartz/digital part of the story lies beyond the scope of this forum. I guess the attraction for me is that I'm sick of all the quips about 'cheap Chinese quartz' thrown out in all the other forums, usually in reference to a watch with a Japanese or Swiss movement. Also I'm aware that there were some makers of what appear to be quality quartz movements who deserve to be distinguished apart from the likes of Swissebauches Ltd.



> I also just wanted to let people know that I've updated the Vintage Chinese watch portal somewhat recently and added the following links:
> 
> * Vintage Chinese electronic watches
> * Vintage Chinese military watches
> * Vintage Chinese pocket watches
> 
> The first two of these don't exist yet, and the last is just a stub. If anybody knows a bit about these subjects, please feel free to create those pages. With the electronic watches page, I am thinking in particular of Ron's quartz Baoshihua, of the 1979 digital watch made a Qingdao (which I know nothing about, but it's mentioned at the old wiki), and any other watches in that vein.


Seems like we're thinking on similar lines.



> With the military watch page, I am thinking about the famous 24 jewel Shanghai diver, the 1963 PLAAF chronograph and any other well-documented military watches, I am sure there must be more. I imagine all of these pages probably not being an awful lot more than an introductory paragraph or two and a list of links to relevant articles, but if anybody knows enough about these subjects to go into more detail, please feel free!


A thorough overview of Chinese military watches would be an excellent resource for collectors, and might even encourage on or two of the old firms to consider some more reissues ;-)


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## J. F. Sebastian

Chascomm said:


> Iinteresting to see how things have changed. When the old wiki was created, the focus was definitely on the current watch industry because that was perceived to be where the interest lay outside of this forum i.e. person buys watch, discovers that it is made in China, gets curious and hits Google, finds the wiki, tells friends about the joys of Chinese watch ownership. So the historical bits were only included to provide context for the current scene. For example I considered putting together a page on Zhongshan watches but there was no point because they were out of production with no descendents.


I know that it currently must not seem like it, but when I rebooted the wiki, my intention was very much to _expand_ its focus, rather than _shift_ it. I'd like the wiki to be able to answer the questions of your hypothetical new watch buyer _and_ to be a place for VCM otaku to geek out about exactly what year factory X switched from producing movement Y to movement Z. There's been a strong bias thus far toward updating and expanding the vintage section, but that's just because I personally find VCMs a lot more interesting than, say, mushroom brands. I assume that there are folks out there who feel the opposite way, and they are 100% welcome to step up to fill in the blanks in the wiki which are relevant to their interests. I've tried to do my best to highlight those blanks to make this clear. In addition to setting up Vintage and Modern portals, I also set up the High-end portal so we can work on educating the Swissophiles. 



Chascomm said:


> I'd like to see some detail documented about the history of electric/electronic/quartz watches in China; however I'm aware that it is probably of lesser interest to the broader readership, is a difficult topic to research and the later quartz/digital part of the story lies beyond the scope of this forum. I guess the attraction for me is that I'm sick of all the quips about 'cheap Chinese quartz' thrown out in all the other forums, usually in reference to a watch with a Japanese or Swiss movement. Also I'm aware that there were some makers of what appear to be quality quartz movements who deserve to be distinguished apart from the likes of Swissebauches Ltd.


I'd love to see this too. I suspect you're right that it's of less broad interest, but personally I am very interested in early quartz watches and the kind of material you described above is certainly welcome on the wiki as long as I'm at the helm. I have deliberately avoided putting any text in the wiki which would suggest that it is exclusively focussed on mechanical watches. I understand that this particular WUS subforum _is_ for Chinese _mechanical_ watches - feel free to use the Discussion pages on appropriate wiki pages as a kind of crude psuedo-forum to coordinate research efforts on electronic Chinese watches if you want.

I have some concerns that this sticky page is a little "invisible" to most of the forum. I feel like "real threads" on wiki-related stuff get noticably more "likes" or replies in a given amount of time than anything I post in here. At the same time, I don't want to bombard the forum proper with wiki-related threads if there are not of interest to a lot of members. I wonder if a wiki-focussed subform would be appropriate, but that may not make things any more visible. It's also arguably not really appropriate, as the wiki is ultimately independent of WUS, even if a lot of contributors will come from here.


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## Seele

At a mom-and-pop watch shop off the main shopping areas in Hong Kong, I bought a NOS Chinese watch branded "Hero", and also marked "Fangzhen, 17 zuan" on the dial. A very pretty all-steel watch with no date complication, it is marked in an arc "Stainless Steel -Shockprotected" on the caseback around the Hero branding in the middle, and beneath it says "Jiangzu China, 1201".

As we all known, the English "Hero" and pinyin "Yingxiong" were often used interchangeably in China, but the list of brands in the Wiki lists Yingxiong as a Hangzhou-based brand. In fact I had not encountered a Hero-branded example before. Perhaps one of my learned fellows can shed some light on this.


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## J. F. Sebastian

I'm afraid I don't know much at all about the Yingxiong brand, but I can tell you this: the odds of you having your question answered in this particular thread are pretty low. I think most people do not check the Sticky posts for new content very often.


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## Seele

When I am home I'll start a thread on it, of course.


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## LCheapo

Is there an equivalent to this page in the new wiki? https://web.archive.org/web/2013102...onink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Site_Map
It seemed like a good portal to find things, in particular on modern Chinese movements and watches.


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## J. F. Sebastian

LCheapo said:


> Is there an equivalent to this page in the new wiki? https://web.archive.org/web/2013102...onink.com/watch_wiki/index.php?title=Site_Map
> It seemed like a good portal to find things, in particular on modern Chinese movements and watches.


That page has, basically, been replaced by three separate "portals", which are supposed to be maps / overviews for three main topic areas:

Vintage Chinese watch portal
Modern Chinese watch portal
High-end Chinese watch portal
However, you can still see _all_ the pages on the wiki (without any structure) here.

There's not an awful lot of modern watch material on there yet (though I think the most important pages from the old wiki have been moved across), but we are working to fix that right now!

I decided to move away from the approach of having one huge site map for the entire wiki because I hope that the wiki will grow large enough in time that having everything on one page would just be way too cumbersome, and also because I thought people would probably often be interested in either mainly vintage or mainly modern stuff, and being able to focus on their field of interest would be useful. If a number of people speak up and say they really prefer the old way, though, I'm not averse to changing it back.


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## kronological

Is there a problem with the Chinese Watch Industry Wiki? When I try to access it, I get this message: 

"This error (HTTP 500 Internal Server Error) means that the website you are visiting had a server problem which prevented the webpage from displaying.
For more information about HTTP errors, see Help."

Has this been abandoned?


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## Chascomm

I got a timeout message when I tried.


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## infinitesd

Chascomm said:


> I got a timeout message when I tried.


Domain for sale when I tried it. In the words of Bones.."It's dead Jim!"


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## Chascomm

infinitesd said:


> Domain for sale when I tried it. In the words of Bones.."It's dead Jim!"


It's working for me now.

Meaning the current generation of the wiki that has a link off the main forum page, rather than the old one that started this thread.

Chinese Watch Wiki


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## J. F. Sebastian

Sorry for the downtime, folks! While there may be almost nothing in the way of regular activity at the moment, the wiki is very much still alive in that I am continuing to renew the domain name and maintain the server, and intend to keep doing so for the foreseeable future. Any downtime exceeding 24 hours should be considered unplanned and unwanted, and a PM to me here is probably the fastest way to get me to look into things.


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