# More vintage Zenith



## Hans61

Hello.
Because of the interesting development of my first thread I want to show you more old watches.

Cal 12-4-P-6-50 and Cal 120-T
What ist the meaning of the "P"?
Thank you


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## Gombrich

Nice Pilot. I have one identical to yours but yours is the first I have seen apart from my own.

Sorry, I have no idea what the P stands for though.










Dave


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## Hartmut Richter

The P should stand for "pince". I believe that it is an old designation to show that the edges of the movement are tapered, possibly to allow the movement to be put into a watch that is barely bigger and still permit the use of a lens-shaped case to make the watch look more elegant. If you look closely, your Cal. 120 T also deserves that description but by the time that movement was made, Zenith probably dropped the "P" suffix because such a movement shape had become relatively standard.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Hello.
I think you are right.
3 x Cal 12-4-6 without "P"


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## Hans61

And a watch Cal 106-P, angled too


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## D N Ravenna

Hans61 said:


> And a watch Cal 106-P, angled too


Interesting hands. Are they original?
Thanks for the pictures!
Dan


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## Hans61

Original? I don't know. Please say to me.
You want more?
Cal 133.8 and Cal 40-T


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## Hans61

Is it possible to edit the order of the pictures?

Here you can see a very old watch.
Cal ??


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> Is it possible to edit the order of the pictures?
> 
> Here you can see a very old watch.
> Cal ??


Now that is really interesting - at least to me. Why? The movement serial number is rather close to the one in my PW. Do you know how old your watch is?

As for calibre, the watch has a PW watch calibre (if small, intended for a ladies pendant watch) and the exact designation depends on the calibre size. Tell me how wide the movement is across and I'll give you a better movement designation (alternatively, you can look it up in Rössler's book yourself).

Hartmut Richter

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

The movement is 28,0 mm or 1,09 in and the watch is from 1929?


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> The movement is 28,0 mm or 1,09 in and the watch is from 1929?


The age sound right - that's what I would have estimated for mine. 1929-1930 (allowing for a little stock piling of cases before they were used - just as for the movements) looks like the era when our watches were made. As for the movement, allowing for the hidden edge dial side to hold the movement, it ought to be a 29.58mm Cal. 13''' N.V.S.I, later designation 13'''-2 (for the savonette version - the lepine version is the 13'''-1 calibre) or even later designation 13-2-T. Made in 100.600 pieces from 1905-1935. b-)

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

I made more pictures - surprise - movement number 632164.
No Swiss made and unusual back.
Cal 106-50-6


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## Hartmut Richter

Yet more confirmation - thanks for showing that!

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Hello.
Are you interested in more watches?
Who knows something about my Zeniths?
My only information is Rösslers Zenith.


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## Hartmut Richter

Bloody hell, how many more of those have you got?! Interested in more Zeniths? Always! However, my only source for information (other than my brain, with what I collected from over the years) is Rössler as well.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

A few are there more. ;-)
For diversity something different:


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> A few are there more. ;-)
> For diversity something different:


Goodness me! Now that is really lovely. A Cal. 18''' N, one of the older Zenith calibres predating the 18''' N.V.S. series. And the case is really special. Thanks for showing!

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

The last for today - I have to go to bed.


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## georges zaslavsky

those are nice zeniths, congrats and thanks for sharing


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## Hartmut Richter

Another nice watch - an Ottoman market Zenith with Billodes movement. Thanks for sharing.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Today I want to show you one of my favorite watches.


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## Shibboleth

Here's a couple of arty shots of my Zenith.


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## Hartmut Richter

A nice early to mid sixties Zenith Cal. 2542 - very clean and well looked after! Gold or gold plated?

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

very nice pocketwatch Hans ! 
must be hundred years old ?

ps if you use the 'insert image' tool you can share pics directly in the thread


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## Hartmut Richter

A Billodes Cal. 109 (since lepine - the 108 is the savonette version). Late 19th century. Lovely bridge layout - they really don't make them like that any more!

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Shibboleth:A fine watch. Very classic.
sempervivens: I think a few years more.
I didn't find the insert image tool. :think:
Today I want to show you two watches gold filled 20 microns.
Cal 2542 and Cal 2562


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## Shibboleth

Hartmut Richter said:


> A nice early to mid sixties Zenith Cal. 2542 - very clean and well looked after! Gold or gold plated?
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Serial number places in about '67 or '68. It's gold plated, and unfortunately, some of the plating has come off, but the movement is in good condition.


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## Hahanna

Can anyone help me to determine the production year of my vintage zenith. It has (i believe) cal 12-4-p movement (definitely a 12-4 series , and no shock protection) and the mvt number is 3320773. The case is made of steel, in bauhaus style, with minimal bazel







and has a number 8291579. Unfortunately the dial is in a bad shape and my scans are bad too.

Thanx in advance.


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## Hans61

This are dates of my watches:

3430992 Kaliber 12.4.6 vom 10.12.1942
3439310 Kaliber 12.4.6 vom 26.01.1943
3492453 Kaliber 12.4.6 vom 20.01.1944
3545119 Kaliber 12.4.P 50 vom 15.02.1946


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## Hartmut Richter

Only Zenith will be able to give you a definite date. It should be late thirties or early forties, though. The closest matches I can find in terms of movement serial number is another Zenith with 330xxxx from 1941 and another with 345xxxx from 1943. The movement serial number did not progress linearly, however - it is possible to find two watches close together in terms of SN with the higher number being used a little earlier.

Generally, Zenith broke the 2 million mark in terms of movement SN around 1917. They then broke the 3 million mark around 1930. However, with the great recession of 1929 and WWII in the early forties, it took them around 20 years to break the 4 million mark around 1950.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hahanna

Thanx. The previous owner said it was from WWII, to the best of his knowledge. He could be right then. How do I write to Zenith? I didn't find any email address on their web site.


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## Hans61

infoATzenith-watches.com

Today I want to show you a very curious watch.
Cal 106 number 4124474 from fifties with fine-setting from cal 10 1/2'''N.S.I.


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> infoATzenith-watches.com
> 
> Today I want to show you a very curious watch.
> Cal 106 number 4124474 from fifties with fine-setting from cal 10 1/2'''N.S.I.


And still they keep coming! Quite a collection you have there.....

Superficially, the Cals. 12-4 and 106/126 are so close to the 10''' and 12''' pocket watch calibres in their bridge layout and wheel positioning that I often wonder if they weren't developed from these. If this should be the case, parts interchangement should be very simple so that a PW fine adjustment in a wristwatch with a later calibre would not seem to extraordinary.

Thanks for showing!

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

I am with Hartmut here. Thanks for sharing with us!!
Dan


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## v76

Amazing collection of vintages Hans, I'm in awe! Thanks for sharing as well ...


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## Hans61

Thank you, too.
You don't think, the case is older than the movment?
Now a later watch, Cal 2572PC without number:


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## m300raj

Hi i have one simlar to this cal.2532


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## m300raj

And one identical with not such a good dial


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## Hans61

Hello m300raj 
The body is different.
Very nice watches!
So I have to play a joker.


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## sempervivens

your joker looks very good Hans that is a strong card to play

interesting also in that it looks like a later production from Besançon

they made very good watches in Besançon 

this is an amazing thread the neverending story


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## LouS

m300raj said:


> Hi i have one simlar to this cal.2532
> 
> View attachment 353670
> View attachment 353671
> View attachment 353672


I like that case and the horizontal hour batons


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## Hans61

LouS, what do you want to say with _the horizontal hour batons_?

And - please also show your vintage Zeniths. Like that:


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## LouS

I mean the hour markers are oriented circumferentially rather than radially



Hans61 said:


> And - please also show your vintage Zeniths.
> Like that:


Like this?;-)


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## v76

Ahhh so much vintage eye candy! Not fair, guys ... just got my second EP, and I'm wanting a few others now


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## Hans61

LouS_ circumferentially_

What an word! And I thought german is a hard language. b-)
But now I understand. You mean the "Stonehenge-Style". Really very unusual.

Very nice chronographs.
I have got one too, but it's not yet the time.
I don't play all jokers at one time. :-d

What movement is inside the Cairelli?

All friends of Zenith, the show must go on!
Please do with.


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## LouS

"Stonehenge-Style" - excellent

Cairelli runs on a 146DP - full post here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f27/zenith-cairelli-cp-2-modem-killer-406134.html

What makes you think I have played all my jokers? ;-)

Onwards....._gerade aus_!


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## Hans61

LouS Pff - bluff - I think you have empty hands b-)
you do not have the slightest chance :-d

Nobody else with vintage Zeniths?


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## Gombrich

Hans61 said:


> Nobody else with vintage Zeniths?


I think I have a couple tucked away somewhere.










Dave


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## LouS

Gombrich said:


> I think I have a couple tucked away somewhere.
> 
> Dave


I believe Dave's got the whole deck! Unless I am mistaken this is the first time we are seeing the "Gombrich" collection in all its grandeur, is it not? Very impressive!

Whoo, didn't realize how large that Patrouille de France cal.146 was when you showed it alone.



Hans61 said:


> LouS Pff - bluff - I think you have empty hands b-)
> you do not have the slightest chance :-d


well, lemme look around here, since you are provoking me.....oop, found a few more....:-d


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## v76

Wow, amazing collection of Zeniths, Dave ... I need a drool bib! 



Gombrich said:


> I think I have a couple tucked away somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


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## Hans61

Gombrich and LouS
Very nice!!! 

But please mooooooooooooooore pictures.


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## Gombrich

Hans61 said:


> Gombrich and LouS
> Very nice!!!
> 
> But please mooooooooooooooore pictures.


I've posted most of them on the forum previously. If there's any of particular interest I'll see what I can do.

Dave


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## Hans61

I want to see all. I can not decide.
What do you think about a common virtual museum?


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## m300raj

Very impresive here's another for you to see defy sub sea


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## sempervivens

Are you having a garage sale ?

I'll take the small box (top left).

And why not that 01.180.415, now we're at it, and if you'll allow me.

But I couldn't find your new diary anywhere?










And Lou, it seems you could spare a few as well.










Please choose which one of these three you want to get rid of :










The blue one seems to be running a bit slow anyway (as compared to the other two)...


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## ezinternet

Thank you Hans for starting this great thread! And all the others sharing their lovelies.

For now, let me contribute this little one ...

This watch was found in an estate sale and posted on the site back in May and I bought it from the forum member. The case was a seriously rough, so I re-cased it into a slightly larger NOS Sporto case. This left a bit of the dial exposed near the bezel, but I think it's OK. Movement is a 12-4-P-6; that's late 1940's, right?

The dial was given a gentle cleaning, and the hands were re-lumed, by Craig Bergsma at Chronodeco who, I think, did a fine match on the patinated tone. The strap is a NOS Zenith lizard with a proper buckle.


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## Gombrich

sempervivens said:


> And why not that 01.180.415, now we're at it
> 
> But I couldn't find your new diary anywhere.


Thanks. Actually, it's an 01.0150.415 - the grey version.









Yes, the collection has grown a bit since that photo was taken (how did that happen?). As well as the "diary" there's an S.58 and A788 to fit in somewhere. I need a new watch box.

Dave


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## Hans61

ezinternet movement 364XXXX

My nearest movement 354XXXX Cal 12.4.P 50 was made in 15.02.1946

Now I want to show you a watch from the late 1930th?


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## Hans61

View attachment 354820
a

And another Cal 133.8


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## D N Ravenna

Hans61 said:


> View attachment 354820
> 
> 
> And another Cal 133.8
> 
> View attachment 354984


You may want to edit your post as the other picture does not show up.
Thanks for sharing!
Dan


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## Hans61

Hi boys and girls.
Please further take part.


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## IndigoC

just wanted to say a big thx to all those for sharing on this thread, totally blown away by the pics!


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## Hartmut Richter

Well, here is my one and only (working) vintage: pocket watch from the late 1920s with Cal. 19''' N.V.S.I (or 19-34-1, giving the more modern description. I used to think it was a Cal. 18 1/2''' but have since learnt that the base plate has a lip which holds the movement in place in the case.

The dial is very likely generic - I have seen identical dials on other watches of that period, including an Omega. Helps to date it!

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

Very very nice.
Twins?


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## D N Ravenna

Here is my contribution to the vintage world. The bridges are light weight as if they are made of aluminum, but I know that is not so.

Cheers!

Dan

PS -- So much for that. The software fails to load my pictures!:-( I guess now I need to figure out why. <|


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## ezinternet

I'll try another!

Not quite certain what I have here. Is it a real "transitional" pocket->wrist watch whose lugs were attached in the past? Or is it a modern, Ukranian conversion of a pocket watch?

The dial is newly finished, and the lume is a weird tint. But I do think the dial is reminiscent of a picture in the Zenith book. Did hands like these ever grace a "works" released watch?

The movement? ... please tell me!


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## Hans61

Movement number 190XXXX?
I think 1914.
I think the lugs do not fit that time.


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## Gombrich

ezinternet said:


> Or is it a modern, Ukranian conversion of a pocket watch?


Yes, I'm afraid it has Ukraine written all over it. There are a few variants of Zenith Special pilots watches but that is definitely a pocket watch conversion as you yourself suspect.

My "Special".


























Dave


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## ezinternet

Love those hands, Dave; like stained glass!


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## Hans61

Hi Dave.
Very nice watch, please give details. :-!
You are scottish?

I have got a similar watch. I think 12''' and made in 1918.
What do you say to my taste? ;-)





















Hans


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## Gombrich

Hans

It's 15''' NVSI with clear movement cover (celluloid?), screw on caseback with a pilot's rotating bezel. This is an early one without seconds hand, about 1920. The case is 40mm diameter.

Yes, I'm Scottish and like a drop of Islay malt as you seem to.

Nice military style one you have there too. What diameter is the case?

Dave


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## Hans61

Hi Dave.
The watch masures 33 mm.

Your watch could have a seconds hand, but it would be by 9 o'clock.
Because movement for lepine in contrast to my watch with movement for savonette.

Bunnahabhain is the only Islay I like, I'm non-smoker. b-)

Hans


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## Gombrich

Hans61 said:


> Bunnahabhain is the only Islay I like, I'm non-smoker. b-)


Well there we differ. I'm very much partial to a smoky Lagavulin or the lovely cask-strength Laphroaig. Think I feel the call of a dram right now.

Dave


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## D N Ravenna

Gombrich said:


> Well there we differ. I'm very much partial to a smoky Lagavulin or the lovely cask-strength Laphroaig. Think I feel the call of a dram right now.
> 
> Dave


Lagavulin is quite good. Got really different when a friend had me a whole bottle after his wedding. But the price of it has gone through the roof. Now-a-days, I am enjoying Balvenie Double Wood.


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## Hans61

My favorites are
Glenfarclas 12 Years
Balvenie Double Wood
Glenlivet 12 Years
Bunnahabhain 12 Years
I buy bottles with 1L and so there are relativly good value.
Laphroaig I used "homeopathic" for blend-experiments.

But we are here not for fun!!
Cal 2541


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## D N Ravenna

D N Ravenna said:


> Here is my contribution to the vintage world. The bridges are light weight as if they are made of aluminum, but I know that is not so.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Dan
> 
> PS -- So much for that. The software fails to load my pictures!:-( I guess now I need to figure out why. <|


Trying to add pictures now...


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## Hans61

Hi D N Ravenna

I see you have the same problem with one of the pictures - the preview is wrong.


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## D N Ravenna

Hans61 said:


> Hi D N Ravenna
> 
> I see you have the same problem with one of the pictures - the preview is wrong.


I think it depends on how you play with it. Here the next three should be in a line:





















And they are. In the old way, they were shown below. Not sure which is better, but here you have it.

Cheers!

:-!

Dan


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## Hans61

Hi Dan.

_I think it depends on how you play with it._ :think:

Very fine El Primero HW.

Roswell?? That Roswell??


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## LouS

Gombrich said:


> Yes, I'm afraid it has Ukraine written all over it. There are a few variants of Zenith Special pilots watches but that is definitely a pocket watch conversion as you yourself suspect.
> 
> My "Special".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


And mine....a 15-2 also with clear movement cover, screw on caseback and rotating bezel. Lume is a sloppy mess - cleaning that off is on the to-do list Movement number puts it at about 1936-38


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## D N Ravenna

Hans61 said:


> Hi Dan.
> 
> _I think it depends on how you play with it._ :think:
> 
> Very fine El Primero HW.
> 
> Roswell?? That Roswell??


Thanks!!! I no longer own it, but it was a fine watch indeed.

FWIW, I live in Roswell, GA where the aliens we have did not come from outer space.

Cheers!

dan


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## revhrd

That is one pristine sub. Are these rare? I would love to hunt one down.


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## cance

hi,
i also have a vintage zenith from my grandfather... but when i found it, it was nearly trash... it has not got cyrstal and ofcourse it isnot working... i found a repairman and a cyrstal... now its working but is not mint due to its great condition when i found but i dont know what model is it and when is this produced...i am not sure if the back case is original one but it writes 9155015 on the back.. now its time for photos...


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## D N Ravenna

cance said:


> hi,
> i also have a vintage zenith from my grandfather... but when i found it, it was nearly trash... it has not got cyrstal and ofcourse it isnot working... i found a repairman and a cyrstal... now its working but is not mint due to its great condition when i found but i dont know what model is it and when is this produced...i am not sure if the back case is original one but it writes 9155015 on the back.. now its time for photos...


I think we would need a view of the movement in order to provide more information, but I applaud you in getting it back to working shape again! Many times, people will either throw the watch away or have it completely redone where it is not recognizable.

Thanks for sharing!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter

I wouldn't worry about the case back - that looks OK. The crown is probably a replacement - I can't recollect a Nato star being used on a Zenith watch that early. Your watch is from the fifties and the Nato star was introduced in the early to mid sixties.

Hartmut Richter


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## Hans61

A very nice watch.
I'd like to see the movement.

And the show must go on.
Where are the millions of old Zenith watches?

Cal 106-P-50 approximately from 1947


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## Hartmut Richter

Hans61 said:


> A very nice watch.
> I'd like to see the movement.
> 
> And the show must go on.
> Where are the millions of old Zenith watches?
> 
> Cal 106-P-50 approximately from 1947
> 
> View attachment 362359
> View attachment 362360
> View attachment 362361


A nice watch! However, the hands don't really look original. They may well be, but I feel that there is a definite imbalance between the thin hands and the thick markers, particularly at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00. Either someone swapped something or Zenith didn't quite get it right IMO. The dial effect at the edges is very nice, though.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna

Hans61 said:


> A very nice watch.
> I'd like to see the movement.
> 
> And the show must go on.
> Where are the millions of old Zenith watches?
> 
> Cal 106-P-50 approximately from 1947


I agree with Hartmut on the hands, but I really like that dial. That was a nice find!
Thanks for sharing,
Dan


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## Hans61

Hello.
It's christmas, so I want to make you a joy.


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## Hartmut Richter

I am sorry, your picture has been messed with again. The first time I called briefly, there was a lovely vintage Zenith chronograph but now, all I can see is a Casio G-shock! The vintage Zenith is a "rare chronograph from ca. 1965 with Cal. 146H, possibly a precursor to the deLuca" (to quote Rössler, where you will find it on Page 233).

Thanks for showing that and "fröhliche Weihnachten!".

Hartmut Richter


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## LouS

Har, I saw the G-shock too, and I thought Hans was trying to be a holiday wise guy!:-d

Nice chrono, now that you've changed it!


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## Hans61

Hi Hartmut and all others.

After some deletions and new-loads I hope the picture runs now.
I don't know the reason, why I sometimes have problems.
I have got no picture of a Casio!!

My watch is a little different to the one in Rössler's book.

Feliz Navidad
I want to wish you a merry christmas
Ich wünsche euch schöne Weihnachten

Hans


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## D N Ravenna

Thanks for the post Hans and Merry Christmas to you as well!
Dan


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## Hans61

Rössler's watch has arabic numbers and only 3 of them are complete.
Normally I'm not worried about cutted numbers, but in this case I want to say, my watch looks better.

What do you think about the subdial on the right?
My watch goes up to 30 and Rössler's watch goes up to 45.
Are both caliber 146H?
And how does Rössler's watch work - how I have to read the time after a few hours timekeeping?


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## m300raj

Well here's another one to look at I particulary like the colour of the dial off this one deep blue and the rare shpe with the bracelet hidden


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## georges zaslavsky

very nice chrono hans  thanks for sharing


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## D N Ravenna

m300raj said:


> Well here's another one to look at I particulary like the colour of the dial off this one deep blue and the rare shpe with the bracelet hidden
> View attachment 367231


I like the use of different colors like the blue. Thanks for sharing!

Dan


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## Hans61

Very nice. I like the simple blue dials - also such as #36 and #54 - very much.

I want to repeat my question:

_What do you think about the subdial on the right?
My watch goes up to 30 and Rössler's watch goes up to 45.
Are both caliber 146H?
And how does Rössler's watch work - how I have to read the time after a few hours timekeeping?

_Hans


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## ezinternet

Hans, to answer your questions ... 
- I like the subdial on the right, up to 30  
- I think your watch is a 146HP, like this one. 
- Can't say how Rossler's works.

Happy New Year Zenith Fans!

(Not yet mine, but hopefully soon after the new year)


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## Hans61

ezinternet - I hope you get it.
Very nice, it's the same type.

Here is the next watch - cal 126-6


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## Hans61

Another cal 126-6


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