# ETA 28XX vs. Powermatic 80 Movement - Thoughts or Concerns?



## SpaceCadet65 (Oct 12, 2017)

I see that a variant of the 80-hour ETA movement is being put in a bunch of watches from the Swatch group including Hamilton. I've read wildly different reactions about this movement that range from "This is a landmark design that will change the way movements are made," to "This is a throw-away design made for cost-cutting purposes." I imagine that the reality is somewhere in the middle. Much of the criticism seems to be about synthetic parts and the lack of adjustability of a standard regulator. But it would appear that many ETA movements have synthetic in them including the universally acclaimed 7750. And there was a watchmaker that posted to another forum that said the adjustments can be made if needed, it's just not as easy. 

Any thoughts?


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

Don't forget the drop in beat rate from 28800 to 21600.


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## SpaceCadet65 (Oct 12, 2017)

Yes. A lot of folks have a problem with that. Doesn't bother me a bit. I'm more concerned about longevity since I like to keep my watches for a very long time.


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

appleb said:


> Don't forget the drop in beat rate from 28800 to 21600.


I do find that a little amusing. One guy complained about the same thing in another post saying if he wanted a quartz watch he'd have bought one.

Current Audemars Piguet movts run at 21,600vph, recent vintage Rolex run at 21,600 and my 1964 Hamilton also runs at 21,600 - so what does it matter what the vph is?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mason Delpino (Mar 3, 2015)

Personally, I own the Khaki with the H-10, and have to say I don't care about the vph. The power reserve was a much more important factor to me than the vph. I also picked mine up for $250, so there's that  The longevity of the movement will most likely not be an issue, as it's basically a 2824-2. It does have a problem with gummed up/dry reversing wheels, so I will be replacing them myself.


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## RainDog (Jun 20, 2016)

I have the new movement in my Tissot PRC200. Also own a couple regular ETAs. Nothing to be said about the ETAs, we all know them. The Powermatic 80 (which is the H10 for Tissot) is very accurate so far. The lower beat rate doesn't bother me, I see it as part of the charm.. each watch has its own charm imho. I believe that if Swatch is replacing proven workhorses with new movements, they must be very confident the new movements have no issue whatsoever. My only concern is how/when will they be popular enough for the independent watchmaker to understand them fully.. also will they be able to find parts from reputable sources is a question I have in mind.

Edit: some people confuse this new movement with the movement in the new auto Swatches, I believe system51 is what they are called. They are not the same, and the H10 is NOT supposed to be a disposable movement.


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## Watchman Dan (Jun 29, 2014)

I feel that it is a downgrade from the good old eta 2824, and I actually prefer a Sellita to a Powermatic movement. I really don't see the point of a longer reserve on an automatic, since It winds constantly as it is worn. I feel it was primarily done for marketing and cost reasons. But, if you must have a Powermatic 80, then get the COSC version with Silicon hairspring, ETA cal. 80.811. It will have a traditional long-life metal/ruby lever and wheel escapement, and come fully hand-adjusted (more accurate than laser alone) from the factory. The basic ETA C07.111 version used in the Tissot and the Certina, takes out the pallet stones and replaces the lever and wheel with PLASTIC, making this movement an unadjustable throwaway! These are clearly identified with 23 jewels instead of 25 jewels. They claim this reduces friction, but it's an unacceptable sacrifice in the name of increased power capacity. Thankfully, Hamilton, Mido and Rado knew better than to use this crapper in their PM 80 versions.

PM 80 Downsides:
1) a slower beat rate is less demanding and typically used in cheaper, less reliable movements = less overall accuracy and choppier seconds hand.
2) replacing a regulator with balance screws = no easy way to adjust for best accuracy, requiring purchase of the COSC version.
3) thinner mainspring = shorter life span and replacement at servicing.
4) Some base versions: Plastic lever and escape wheel, removal of 2 ruby pallet stones = shorter life span, greater risk of breakage, and replacement at servicing


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

Dan Finch said:


> PM 80 Downsides:
> 1) a slower beat rate is less demanding and typically used in cheaper, less reliable movements = less overall accuracy and choppier seconds hand.
> 2) replacing a regulator with balance screws = no easy way to adjust for best accuracy, requiring purchase of the COSC version.
> 3) thinner mainspring = shorter life span and replacement at servicing.
> 4) Some base versions: Plastic lever and escape wheel, removal of 2 ruby pallet stones = shorter life span, greater risk of breakage, and replacement at servicing


Just for interest here's my take on these points:

1. My most accurate watch - +-0SPD is my old Rolex 1675 running at 21,600 vph. It's true that a lower beat rate usually has increased inaccuracy but not always the case in practice. Choppier second hand doesn't mean jerky, it's just got 4 ticks per second vs 6 of a 28,800 movt.

2. True, however any decent watchmaker should have sufficient skills to be able to regulate it - it's just more time consuming to do is all.

3. Most of the power reserve gain is from dropping the beat rate rather than having a thinner mainspring per se. No indications that the lifespan is shortened by that and routine replacement at factory service is likely for any movement.

4. Reducing friction of the entry and exit pallet stones was the reason G. Daniels invented the co axial escapement. A plastic escapement might not require lubrication (like the co axial) and engineered plastics can often put perform their traditional counterpart.

These movements haven't really been around long enough for any real long term observations about their potential longevity and the use of plastic, whilst no doubting their cost cutting use, is more of a perception of being cheap and tacky rather than that being actually being the case. Time will inevitably tell!!


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

My only concern is that they are still relatively new, so in terms of longevity a bit untested compared to a traditional 2824, so it seems like a rather risky move to suddenly put these in such a large number of lower end Swatch luxury models. But I guess I took the risk and decided I trusted that the decision by Swatch was not made after a company wide Vegas bender. 
I can say my Powermatics are all +5 or less, so I have not personally seen any accuracy issues and if anything they seem to be more accurate on average than my 2824's, Sellitas and even Miyotas. That is purely anecdotal and only on average. The most accurate watch I own is actually a top grade 2824. 
I think one of the biggest hurdles for it to overcome is disinformation. People always mix it up with Swatch's Sistem51, which has significantly hampered its WIS image.


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

Don't know about the P-80 but in regards to the H-10, the mainspring doesn't seem to be thinner, right? But I don't know. Maybe thinner in this case cannot be grasped in plain sight:
https://www.j-tajima.com/hpgen/HPB/entries/22.html


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## Avo (Mar 1, 2010)

My understanding is that Swatch service now gives you back a serviced movement from someone else's watch, while your movement gets serviced and put into yet another person's watch later.


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## NC_Hager626 (Sep 20, 2018)

Avo said:


> My understanding is that Swatch service now gives you back a serviced movement from someone else's watch, while your movement gets serviced and put into yet another person's watch later.


Is this based on hearsay or is this based on facts that you have read?

There is an article on the internet describing this practice. And, in this particle article, it makes the following points:

1) we live in a throw-away society, and the watch industry is no different,
2) with a shortage of qualified watch technicians, the watch manufacturers in reducing the lead time for the service of a watch's movement have resorted to exchanging that particular movement with a refurbished or even a new movement, whichever is cheaper; and more importantly, 
3) this practice is not only limited to Swatch's mechanical and quartz movements, but to other watch brands as well.

I would have to assume the author who wrote this article is basing it on facts the he observed. And, so what if this is the current state the watch industry in practicing - at least we assured of get our own watch's back once they have been properly serviced by the repair center.

If you have not read this article, then I would encourage you to search for it on the internet and read it prior to making any further sweeping and generalized statements about the "Swatch service now gives you back a serviced movement from someone else's watch . . ".


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

Avo said:


> My understanding is that Swatch service now gives you back a serviced movement from someone else's watch, while your movement gets serviced and put into yet another person's watch later.


Not if it's COSC certified since there's a serial number that's tied to the COSC certificate. However it's common practice to exchange a movt at service rather than actually tear it down and service it, and even Tudor used to do this until they started using their in house COSC movements. It's a perfectly logical and cost effectively reasonable thing to do.


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## NC_Hager626 (Sep 20, 2018)

hub6152 said:


> Not if it's COSC certified since there's a serial number that's tied to the COSC certificate. However it's common practice to exchange a movt at service rather than actually tear it down and service it, and even Tudor used to do this until they started using their in house COSC movements. . .


Unfortunately, this may not be the case. This article does talk about COSC, in which it states:

_"Even chronographs equipped with an ETA 7750 that have been C.O.S.C. certified are being exchanged for refurbished models sent back from the factory. Movement serial numbers that were once unique to your watch are now being replaced with records updated to match the C.O.S.C. database. Your old movement complete with your individual serial number will later down the track be placed into someone else's watch entirely . . . Companies that produce in-house calibers certified by C.O.S.C. with individual serial numbers are also replacing movements with refurbished or even new movements."
_

So even COSC movements are either recycled or replaced all together.


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

NC_Hager626 said:


> Unfortunately, this may not be the case. This article does talk about COSC, in which it states:
> 
> _"Even chronographs equipped with an ETA 7750 that have been C.O.S.C. certified are being exchanged for refurbished models sent back from the factory. Movement serial numbers that were once unique to your watch are now being replaced with records updated to match the C.O.S.C. database. Your old movement complete with your individual serial number will later down the track be placed into someone else's watch entirely . . . Companies that produce in-house calibers certified by C.O.S.C. with individual serial numbers are also replacing movements with refurbished or even new movements."
> _
> ...


Interesting but not surprising. I don't see it as a big deal anyway. Like I said it makes perfect sense from an economic and time perspective and as long as the freshly "serviced" watch performs properly then what's wrong with it anyway!


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

That to me is a huge disappointment. If instead of a real service they replace the entire movement with a NEW one, then, that's fine. But I don't like the idea of putting a movement that beat on someone else's wrist inside my precious watches. I only accept that if I'm buying a vintage watch.

If in 8 years there are not local watchmakers able to tear down, clean and re-oil an H-10 (or any other movement I have) then I think I'll simply run my watch until it dies and then keep it as a "relic" once it's dead... 8-15 years (or even more) of use it's fine I guess. Hope that by using watches in rotation once they run out of oil, I can extend their life as much as possible.

Nothing seems to last forever.


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

c185445 said:


> That to me is a huge disappointment. If instead of a real service they replace the entire movement with a NEW one, then, that's fine. But I don't like the idea of putting a movement that beat on someone else's wrist inside my precious watches. I only accept that if I'm buying a vintage watch.
> 
> If in 8 years there are not local watchmakers able to tear down, clean and re-oil an H-10 (or any other movement I have) then I think I'll simply run my watch until it dies and then keep it as a "relic" once it's dead... 8-15 years (or even more) of use it's fine I guess. Hope that by using watches in rotation once they run out of oil, I can extend their life as much as possible.
> 
> Nothing seems to last forever.


What does it matter if it's been refurbished to as new condition and works as perfectly as a brand new one does!!


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

hub6152 said:


> What does it matter if it's been refurbished to as new condition and works as perfectly as a brand new one does!!


Because in part it wouldn't be "my watch" anymore. If it gets parts newly produced I can feel it as when you repair your car, that's nice. But getting parts from someone else's watch... That's as getting part of the soul of someone else's watch.

Anyway, I might be ok with it as long as they keep all the case and crown untouched. Do they usually need to change the entire crown during a service?

I don't know. As I said, to me, maybe it's simply easier from a mental point of view to run a watch until it dies...


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

c185445 said:


> Because in part it wouldn't be "my watch" anymore. If it gets parts newly produced I can feel it as when you repair your car, that's nice. But getting parts from someone else's watch... That's as getting part of the soul of someone else's watch.
> 
> Anyway, I might be ok with it as long as they keep all the case and crown untouched. Do they usually need to change the entire crown during a service?
> 
> I don't know. As I said, to me, maybe it's simply easier from a mental point of view to run a watch until it dies...


You'd never be able to tell which parts had been replaced anyway assuming you would even take off the case back to look. And with a display back you'd still not be able to tell. And the parts that might be retained would be the mainplate, bridges, balance wheel and cock and some going train wheels. None of which you'd ever be able to discern from a brand new watch or fully overhauled movement.

Yes crowns are routinely replaced because they wear, but they'd be replaced with a new one rather than a used one.


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

I searched for "watch cock" on Google images and didn't get the info I wanted at first, but I think I know what it is now.

You say they would keep the mainplate, bridges, balance wheel and cock and some wheels from the train. Would they keep as much? I thought the point of being cost-effective was to simply pull out everything and replace without having to fiddle with the movement piece by piece. If they kept as much then I wouldn't have a problem with such kind of service. But any guarantee?

In regards to the crown, that's good to know. What if the crown shows no sign of wear? Do you think they'd keep it?


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

c185445 said:


> I searched for "watch cock" on Google images and didn't get the info I wanted at first, but I think I know what it is now.
> 
> You say they would keep the mainplate, bridges, balance wheel and cock and some wheels from the train. Would they keep as much? I thought the point of being cost-effective was to simply pull out everything and replace without having to fiddle with the movement piece by piece. If they kept as much then I wouldn't have a problem with such kind of service. But any guarantee?
> 
> In regards to the crown, that's good to know. What if the crown shows no sign of wear? Do you think they'd keep it?


The only things that are routinely replaced at a service are mostly the mainspring and occasional going train or motion works wheels, that have worn pivots/damaged teeth and maybe the pallet fork if chipped pallet stones. Occasionally the jewel bearings might be replaced too. Oscillating Rotor bearings likely also replaced. Any seals in the pendant/crown tube, caseback seal and crown O ring seals will also be replaced. If the crystal is scratched/chipped that will be replaced. The crown thread condition (if a screw down type) will dictate if that's replaced or not.


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

I see, thanks, it's good to know.

In regards to the Swatch service centers replacing the movement, so there are things from the movement they'd keep? Wouldn't that imply having to re-oil some parts? I thought they'd take the entire movemenet out and put some other movement that had been freshly refurbished and ready for assembly.


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

c185445 said:


> I see, thanks, it's good to know.
> 
> In regards to the Swatch service centers replacing the movement, so there are things from the movement they'd keep? Wouldn't that imply having to re-oil some parts? I thought they'd take the entire movemenet out and put some other movement that had been freshly refurbished and ready for assembly.


Any movement that is serviced is fully stripped down to every last part, ultrasonically cleaned and reassembled with either new or existing parts and properly lubricated before being regulated ready to reassemble into the watch - with final regulation being done after casing up. However these freshly serviced movements may well be prepared in advance in separate facilities and then simply swapped for the existing movement at the time the watch is sent in.


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

Don’t forget that ETA movements are not hand made or assembled to being with. They’re mass produced on automated production lines which is why I’m not even sure the old movements are even refurbished at all but simply replaced for new ones as it’s cheaper to do that than it is to pay a watchmaker to service the existing movement. The exception to this is the higher tier brands within the Swatch group.


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## Mr.Jones82 (Jul 15, 2018)

I sent a Mido back on warranty because the rotor was spinning when winding, and within 2 weeks it was returned to me with a new movement; they did not bother to fix it. I imagine with mass produced movements like 2824's and powermatics, it is far cheaper to replace than repair.


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

hub6152 said:


> Don't forget that ETA movements are not hand made or assembled to being with. They're mass produced on automated production lines which is why *I'm not even sure the old movements are even refurbished at all but simply replaced for new ones* as it's cheaper to do that than it is to pay a watchmaker to service the existing movement. The exception to this is the higher tier brands within the Swatch group.


That they don't get a real service by official centers seems to be well known around this forum and I think I'm ok with that. But to me there is a huge difference if the replacement is with a new movement or simply with a refurbished one that has been used by someone else in the past.

If that in bold you wrote is true, then I'm ok with these cost-effective "services". Perhaps it's simply cheaper to put 1000 "cocks" or balance wheels or whatever in the same oven and melt it and use the recycled material for building new movements by the machines. Rather than trying to salvage parts from old movements, test them, re-install them in other watch, and all that jazz...


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## clayteson (Jan 5, 2016)

I find this as an interesting concern considering it's in the Hamilton forum. These watches are mass produced and distributed with fairly insignificant price tags compared to many others. Even if Omega was doing this with Co-Ax movements, I wouldn't have a care. Could you actually highlight the differences between a refurbished movement and a new movement? Of course, you've drummed up some sentimental value with this watch, but unless you've actually torn down the movement yourself, do you actually have any attachment there?

The car analogy here is a good one. I own a variety of cars; classic cars, daily drivers, motorcycles, etc. If I took my non-numbers matching 1960 Impala to a service center (which would never happen) and they pulled the motor and put a new one in, I'd be pretty upset. Even though it's not an original motor, I've toiled over the car for countless hours. Although the new motor may run and perform better, there's some attachment there because I've already built the existing motor. If I take my Honda Accord in for service (which I don't really do either) and they put a new motor in it, HECK YES!! Sign me up. I haven't built that motor, I have no sentimental attachment to the hard parts on my daily driver, and I'm leaving better off than I came. At some point we have to face reality. At this price point, I'm not sure I would expect anything different. Of course, couldn't you just take it to a local watchmaker if you were that concerned?


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## hub6152 (Feb 17, 2014)

Well articulated and I totally agree with every word.


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## c185445 (Feb 10, 2018)

clayteson said:


> [...]Of course, couldn't you just take it to a local watchmaker if you were that concerned?


I'll definitely consider that when the time comes. Also the official service center if that will make my watch run no matter what.

But I don't know... I've been reading stuff as this:
How often does a watch need a service? | Watch Guy

That means a watch can run "fine" for 8-10 years (that's what oils last) and then if the watch is not full of dirt or got water inside, it might run for several more years before it breaks. Maybe running until "it dies" isn't such a bad approach. Or better, maybe in 8 years I'll be in need of a change and I might keep my current watches stored with care in the closet while I wear something else. Retiring them before they truly break but after a lot of years of use. Knowing they can tick even if not nicely to be used as timekeepers.

But I don't know, I love my current humble collection a lot... I'll enjoy them before worrying too much about services.


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## clayteson (Jan 5, 2016)

c185445 said:


> But I don't know, I love my current humble collection a lot... I'll enjoy them before worrying too much about services.


Ditto. My hammy keeps awesome time and was fairly inexpensive. I imagine when the time comes I'll compare costs to service and take whichever route is cheapest. I'd love to learn more about watch movements and simple repairs, which I'll also probably consider if the watch is old enough. At this point I've got enough hobbies, and enough tools to accompany their nuances.

In the instances I've needed to service more expensive pieces I've always sent them off to the mfg. I'll only start to worry when the watch doesn't function as expected upon return. Usually necessity is the mother of invention. IE I'll probably only start to REALLY learn how this stuff works when something breaks and isn't fixed as it should be.


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## ToyPanda (Jan 3, 2019)

Usually, I'd like a smoother sweep, but the 80-hour power reserve is so convenient for me to switch out watches and don't need to worry about resetting the time and date even after three days. So I don't really mind the "downgrading".


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## zippotone (Oct 7, 2016)

Interesting discussion. I've worn a Khaki field with the Powermatic movement for 2 and a half years, and it's consistently kept time well within COSC parameters (less than +2 secs/day). 

Long story short: I lost it a few months back (or so I thought), missed it so much I bought it 2nd hand with an ETA 2824-2 inside.

The day after I receive the 2nd hand Hammy, I find the other one. Turns out it wasn't lost, after all... 

Now I have two watches that look identical but have a different movement inside.

Which one should I get rid of? The one with the ETA its keeping great time, too (+4 secs / day).



Enviado desde mi 2201116PG mediante Tapatalk


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## Scottwach (Jan 14, 2016)

c185445 said:


> Because in part it wouldn't be "my watch" anymore. If it gets parts newly produced I can feel it as when you repair your car, that's nice. But getting parts from someone else's watch... That's as getting part of the soul of someone else's watch.
> 
> Anyway, I might be ok with it as long as they keep all the case and crown untouched. Do they usually need to change the entire crown during a service?
> 
> I don't know. As I said, to me, maybe it's simply easier from a mental point of view to run a watch until it dies...


Boy, I sure hope you never need an organ transplant.


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## Mazer (Feb 6, 2020)

I sent my Hammy chrono (H717260) back to the factory for it's first service and I seriously hope they don't replace the movement, they already said they were replacing the crown, even though I had zero issue with it. I never send a watch in for service unless there is something wrong with it, and in this case the second hand would not go back to the 12 o'clock position when resetting the chrono (It got worse than in the pic below). On a quartz, easy to adjust, but this one is an automatic. The last time I sent an automatic chrono in for service was my Regatta timer, it cost a lot of money to fix, and they sent back a lot of parts they replaced. But, bottom line, is that if they are going to replace a movement they should at least say so in the list of work they did maybe even offer it as a choice with a lesser cost? This repair and service quote is close to half as much as the last one (the crown to start the "countdown" timer had locked shut) than this one....so...guess we'll see.


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