# 1970's Delvina watch - Worth the repair?



## Ceristimo

Hi everybody,

So, since the bracelet of my normal watch snapped and it really isn't worth a new bracelet anymore, I started digging around in some old closets and cabinets to see if I could find another watch.

There I found an old watch. The brand is Delvina. I recognized the watch as my fathers old watch, so I asked my mother about it.
She told me she bought it for him somewhere in the early 70's. She claims is was a quite expensive watch, but I can't find anything about it on the internet, so I have my doubts about that.

On the front is says: "Delvina Geneve - 17 jewels Incabloc". On the back it says: "Compressor Swiss Made". And below that: "Brevet - 2346Z4

My mother said she believed it came with an leather strap, but it now has a metal bracelet.

Anyway, it's a mechanical watch and the first thing I did was to rewind it. 
The first 3 hours it looked to be accurate, but it's now been running for seven hours and it's going too fast. It's already three minutes off. So this thing certainly needs some servicing, I guess.

Anyway, my question is: Has anyone ever heard of this brand and would it be worth the repair? Does anyone know what could be wrong with it (since it's running wáááy too fast) and can anyone give me a rough estimate of what it would cost to get it fixed?

My broken watch was a quartz-watch and it never had to be looked after. Is a mechanical watch the same (except it needs to be rewound every day) or does it need some special care? Is it a real hassle to keep a mechanical watch, or are they troublefree, once everything works like it should?

Just so you know what kind of watch I'm talking about:
It looks a lot like this one, I found on E-bay:
http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230237212240&indexURL=#ebayphotohosting

Except the watch on Ebay is all scratched, and that my watch still looks like new, and my faceplate is a kind of green-blue color. Quite special. I'll try and make a photo of it, if anyone 's interested.


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## Eeeb

Watches of this type are "underappreiated". The specific watch you have is representative of the pre-quartz era of Swiss watch making. In this period there were lots of companies making watches under different names. Some made the entire watch. Most bought the movement (the insides) from one of several vendors and customized it and cases for sale under their name. 

Many of these companies disappeared when quartz watches caused the total sales of the industry in half in five years. If the brand still exists, I suspect it is because the name was bought.

The movement inside your watch represents over a hundred years of refinement of manual wind watches. You can today buy mechanical watch movements that are slightly better, but cost a great deal more.

Mechanical watches require periodic cleaning and lubrication and then a subsequent regulation so that they can tell decent time. For a watch with no other problems, this could cost about $100. 

With a new gasket on the back and in the crown (the knob on the side) the watch will probably be water resistant but you might not want to use if for swimming unless you watchmaker tested it. Once a watch is water (and dirt) resistant, it should be able to go for years without another cleaning, etc. You will know when that is necessary as it will start to not keep good time -- like yours is doing now. But a mechanical watch will never have as accurate a second hand as a quartz watch.

The upside over quartz is there are no batteries to replace and most folks seem to like to have their watch 'ticking' 

I could go more into this but you will find folks around here are often passionate about quartz vs mechanical... it's sometimes the Hatfields vs the McCoys :-d

But to summarize, if I could have my father's watch working for only $100, I'd do it in a New York second!!


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## Chascomm

I've never heard of Delvina either. The 'ST' movement is a 'Standard' job from the ETA combine that included many manufacturers. This points to the watch being the kind of generic Swiss piece typical of its era. On the other hand, the mysterious 'Waterproof Compressor' _Brevet_ (patent) suggests that Delvina may have at least done some of their own design work.

If anybody here knows how to search Swiss patents, could they look up # 2346Z4 ? (unless that's just the serial number)

I suspect that your watch just needs the basic service and clean, and then should hopefully run to within 30sec per day. I wouldn't trust the case to be more than splash-proof after all this time, even with new seals. And bear in mind that although the watch is 'shockproof' it won't take the same beating as a quartz.


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## Ceristimo

Thanks for the information guys. Appreciate it. I'll go to my local watchmaker somewhere this week, when I've found the time to do that.
Strange thing though: I rewinded the watch this morning, and it has been keeping accurate time. I'll see how it holds up the next days. Maybe it was running too fast the first time because it was so eager to be used again after more then ten years?

Oh, and about the rewinding. Since I've never owned a mechanical watch, I don't actually know how to do that. How often should I do it? My guess is once per day. And how far should you wind it? All the way untill the crown won't turn anymore or is that bad for the spring?

And does anyone know of a little trick to set the date? My previous watch had a crown which you could pull out in two little steps. The first click was to set the date, and when you pulled it all the way out, you could set the time. It seems this watch can't do that, and when I set the date yesterday, I had to manually skip the watch a few hundred hours. That took some time. Is it okay to turn it counterclockwise?

Oh, and for those interested, a nice little picture:









Notice that the bracelet has a different color then the casing of the watch, but I'll have the bracelet replaced once I've decided if I keep it for everyday use. (365 days a year, 16 hours a day).


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## Janne

Bloody hell, man, STOP WINDING THE WATCH UP!!!!!!!! o|o|o|
Would you start and drive a car that has not been used for 10 years????

The chance is great that the oils have dried out, and by winding the watch up, you can cause huge amounts of unneccesary wear on all contact surfaces!
It is not "a watch", it is "Your old fathers watch". In my eyes- priceless!
Also, you state that you never serviced your old dead quarts. It maybe just needs a battery change? ;-) Even a quarts need a little bit of TLC sometimes...

You being a " WatchVirgin": I would let the Watchmaker instruct me how to set/change the time and date. Safer that way...

I sometimes think of watches like women: To be used, but not abused!


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## sixtysix

I am just going to say what everyone else did. That watch looks nice enough to spend the $$ on a clean and service, should be about $100 for a quality job. They should polish the case and bracelet as well. As long as it's not seized up (and it's not) it should be easily fixable. You have to decide if it's worth it. I would spent the $$ on it. Nice watch.


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## Ceristimo

@Janne
Okay. Your message is clear. I won't rewind it anymore, and take it to the watchmaker a.s.a.p. I'll get an estimate for the the oiling and cleaning and a new bracelet.
About my broken watch: The clock still runs, but one of the pins of the metal bracelet snapped. And since it wasn't a real expensive watch, and it also needs a thorough cleaning and a new glass, I'd rather spend that money on my father's old watch than a 13-in-a-dozen quartz-watch I bought eight years ago.


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## Janne

Thank you for that!, Ceristimo! The watch might not be "valuable" in $$, but it has a great sentimal value. I guess your Father is not among us anymore. If I were you, after the clean and service,, I would use it as it is and save money for a new daily (beater) watch. And since you have managed to find WUS ( BTW, Welcome to the WUS, the no 1 Internetsite for watch nerds) you might develop a taste for watches!

PS. I would not buy a new bracelet at the Watchmaker. I would look around on the "Net" and buy a nice leather strap. WUS will help. So many nice straps are made! 
PPS I sincerely hope you did not take offence from my previous post. It was harsh but well ment!

GReetings Janne


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## Ceristimo

Just got back from a trip to the juweler. The watch-maker wasn't there, he'll be in tomorrow again. Normal servicing for a watch (oiling, cleaning) is 40 euro's. So that'll be $62,-. Servicing a watch is alot cheaper here in Holland than in the US, I guess.
A new bracelet will be somewhere between 15 and 40 euro's. The woman behind the counter couldn't tell me what if would cost to make it waterproof again. I'll aks the watchmaker when I bring the watch in tomorrow.

@Janne
No offence taken, really. Altough it was kind of a shock to read it. I'm still wearing the watch now, though. Since I rewinded it this morning and I can think of no way to make it stop ticking, I can just as well wear it untill I bring it in for servicing tomorrow-morning. With a little luck a complete wind will last me a bit more then 24 hours, so I can still make full use of it today and tomorrow-morning, hèhè.
Oh, and by the way: It's still accurate.

About the straps: I don't like leather straps. I want a watch to weight heavy and jump up and down my wrist as I move, and when I shake my wrist I want to hear that nice tinkling sound from the bracelet. I want to feel it's there, and I don't feel it with a leather strap.

Oh, and Janne, I don't know about developing a taste for watches, But I have however already developed a taste for the nice ticking-sound a mechanical watch has. That 'tickety-tickety-tickety'-sound which is just barely audible in a quiet room is really soothing.


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## Hartmut Richter

Welcome to Watchuseek also from myself. For what it's worth, your movement is originally an FHF (Fabrique d'Horlogerie Fontainemelon) movement. If you haven't seen it before, here's a link:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk&Standard_974

...although the surface finish may be different if you open it up. You don't have a rapid date setting by an intermediate crown position but chances are that you can set it to click over around 24:00, go back to about 20:00-21:00, click over again by going to 24:00, and so on. It's a little quicker than going twice round in the forward direction!

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

@Harmut
Wow, thanks! I've never seen the inside of a mechanical watch, but it certainly looks a lot nicer than my quarz-watch (I've seen the inside of that, and there wasn't alot to see actually)

I just tried your little trick, and it works. The date clicks over exáctly at 24:00 (and starts to move at 23:00, which also is nicer then my quartz which started to move at 23.30 and made the click at 23.45), and if I go back to 21.00 it clicks again when passing 24:00. Great! Thanks for the tip! This saves alot of time setting the right date.

P.S. Gangreserve is noted as 46 hours. So this means I only have to wind the watch every other day?
And I could ofcourse ask the watchmaker tomorrow how to wind the watch, but maybe someone here can instruct me on that too? How far do you need to wind a watch? I can't imagine it's good to wind it all the way up, because I guess there's extreme tension on the spring by then.


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## JohnF

Hi -

It's a good idea to simply wind the watch up every morning when you wear it. The reason for this is that a freshly wound watch performs better than one where the spring is almost unwound (there is a power curve involved), and if you wind it in the morning, you're best performance will be during the day.

It is fine to wind it up to the point where you can't wind it any more: as a matter of fact, that is how they are designed to be used. Winding it up only partially just doesn't give the watchworks the energy that it needs to operate as precisely as possible. But you don't need to be obsessive about keeping it wound: just once a day, in the morning when you put the watch on, is one of the best performance enhancers for watches out there. And you got it for free here!

But do have it worked on: we hate to see watches abused...

JohnF


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## Janne

Ceristimo said:


> 1: No offence taken, really.
> 2: It's still accurate.
> 
> 3: About the straps: I don't like leather straps. I want a watch to weight heavy
> 
> 4: Oh, and Janne, I don't know about developing a taste for watches, But I have however already developed a taste for the nice ticking-sound a mechanical watch has. That 'tickety-tickety-tickety'-sound which is just barely audible in a quiet room is really soothing.


 (Numbers added by Janne)

Hi! 
re: 1: Thanks, absolutely no offence meant. 
re: 2: Means the movement is quality and not worn out! |>
re: 3: Advise: Look for a 70ies design, maybe Mesh  or flexible?
re: 4: HA! You are already hooked!!!! :-d

Enjoy it sensibly! Greetings Janne


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## Ceristimo

@Janne
I hate flexible's, but I do like those mesh-bracelets. Will have a look into that tomorrow. Altough by the looks of it, those mesh-bracelets seem quite expensive. Thanks for the advice, though. :-!

@John F
Thanks for the info!


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## Ceristimo

Just dropped it off at the watchmaker. If there are no further problems it will be ready by the end of the following week. If he finds any problems with it, he'll give me a call, so I can decide if it's worth the extra money.
Also got a new bracelet for it. No mesh-bracelet (too expensive), no flexible, just a normal steel bracelet for 30 euro's ($46,80).

So, I'll keep my fingers crossed the following ten days, praying there's nothing wrong with the watch, and it only needs normal servicing. I'm affraid it'll get too expensive for me, if some parts need replacing.

Only annoying thing now is that I have no watch. Well, my mobile phone keeps the time (probably more accurately then that old mechanical watch ever will:-d), but I just can't stand that naked feeling on my left wrist. Really gets on my nerve.

So, I've fiddled around with the broken pin on my quartz-watch and got it to snap back in the hole again. Ofcourse, there's only one side of the pin keeping the bracelet together now, so here's hoping it holds on for the next 10 days.:roll:


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## Eeeb

Ceristimo said:


> ...
> Only annoying thing now is that I have no watch....


This is why everyone should have several dozen watches! ;-)


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## Janne

Eeeb said:


> This is why everyone should have several dozen watches! ;-)


Many thanks for that sentence! I will use it the next time my Wife complains.....:-!

:thanks Janne


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## Ceristimo

I guess you're all getting tired of my Delvina by now, but still....









Watchmaker just called me. It'll get a bit more expensive, since it also needed a new crown. The original crown was worn out. So now instead of €40,- this servicing will cost me €49,-. ($76,80). Still cheaper than you all estimated, thoughb-)

There's nothing in the watch that needs replacing. He said the movement itself had absolutely no trace of any wear.

When I asked him when I need to have it serviced again, he said that he thought that a service every five years would be unnecessary. He said: "Just bring it it whenever it's not running good anymore, to have it cleaned and oiled".
So, total cost wil be 70 euro's with the bracelet ($110,-). For that kind of money I could have also gotten a normal quartz-watch, but that wouldn't have been my fathers, and besides...I really like the looks of this Delvina. I've never seen a faceplate in this color.

Watchmaker expected this watch to run for decades to come.
Who knows, maybe I'll never need another watch again...:-! (altough a cheap quartz-watch to use as an everyday beater isn't such a bad idea, but since I'm everything but wealthy I'll first have to save some money for that. This watch has costed me enough as it is already)


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## Ray MacDonald

Glad it worked out for you. You now have a nice Vintage watch that belonged to your father and for not too much money it's going to be clean, oiled and ready to serve you for many years.
It's really satisfying to see a Vintage watch put to good use again. :-!


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## Ceristimo

Just picked my watch up from the watchmaker. I have to wait yet another week for the new bracelet (the one I choose wasn't in stock), but aside from that everything seems perfect.
The watch has been cleaned, there's a new crown, it's oiled and checked for water resistance and it's happily ticking away the hours now.

Just one question though, purely out of curiosity:
When I asked him how he regulated the watch, he told me he had it set so it gains 20 seconds a day. When I asked him if that wasn't a bit too much, he said that a watch slows down when you wear it, so the seconds it looses by wearing it, should get balanced out at night when it's stationary.
What's your opinion on that? Is a 20 second gain normal to set a watch to, or is it a bit too much?

When the new bracelet arrives I'll post a new pic, and then this topic can be set tot resolved.
Just want to thank you guys for all the advice, especially Janne. If it wasn't for his reaction I would probably still be wearing the watch now without oil, taking for granted that it would sometimes gain 5 minutes in a short period of time.:-d

So, hopefully this watch will last me my lifetime, so I can pass it on to one of my future children :-!


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## Eeeb

Ceristimo said:


> ...
> Just one question though, purely out of curiosity:
> When I asked him how he regulated the watch, he told me he had it set so it gains 20 seconds a day. When I asked him if that wasn't a bit too much, he said that a watch slows down when you wear it, so the seconds it looses by wearing it, should get balanced out at night when it's stationary.
> What's your opinion on that? Is a 20 second gain normal to set a watch to, or is it a bit too much?...


Watches vary in their timing depending on their relationship with gravity. Every watch is slightly different. Every wearing/use pattern is different. Regulating a watch is somewhat hit or miss and, in the real world, might take several passes to get to levels you can tolerate.

Personally I time mine to the minimum loss/gain possible and hack them to an RC clock every time I put them on. If I had to stick to only one watch, I'd pick a quartz... but I don't have to so I don't!


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## Ray MacDonald

I'd just wear it for a while and see what happens. It's an older watch and 20 sec per day isn't out of the ordinary.
http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/accuracy.shtml


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## Ceristimo

Ray MacDonald said:


> I'd just wear it for a while and see what happens. It's an older watch and 20 sec per day isn't out of the ordinary.
> http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/accuracy.shtml


Thanks for the replies, guys. Interesting link, so thanks for that.

Well, it it would be off by 20 seconds a day, I could live with that. I don't really care whether it's 12.00h or 12.01h or 11.58h.

However: My watch seems to be losing around two to three seconds per hour. That, in my opinion, is a bit too much. That would mean it would lose around 72 seconds per day, and I don't think that is acceptable. Well, maybe the oil needs some burning in time or something?
I'll have to go to the watchmaker by the end of the next week for my new bracelet anyway, so I can ask him to take a look at it again, when it's still losing that much time. So I'm not too concerned about that at the moment.

I'll post back the following week to let you know how it all went b-)


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## Hartmut Richter

20 seconds does sound a bit much. On the other hand, it is best to wear it for a while, running it in and allowing the oils to distribute a tiny bit before you re-regulate. The performance of a watch will differ on the arm vs. lying on the sideboard but 20 seconds seems too much to make up. On the other hand, it is a vintage watch. More important is also the deviation around that value - i.e. 20 seconds every day can be eliminated by shifting the arm on the balance, a mean value of zero with a performance of +20, -20, +20, -20, etc. (i.e. 20 seconds deviation around the mean daily rate) would require a re-service or even parts replacement.

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

Well, according to the link Ray MacDonald provided, 20 seconds off per day isn't out of the ordaniray for a watch this age. And I can live with 20 seconds off, but more then a minute off per day is just a bit too much.

Anyway, the watchmaker just called that he had my bracelet, so I just got back from a third trip to the watchmaker. Never thought I would see that guy that often...:-d

So, got the new bracelet and I told him that the watch loses three seconds per hour. He agreed that was way too much, so he just re-regaluted the watch. But he also said that regulating a watch is also a bit trial-and-error, so chances are I have to go to the watchmaker several times again, to get it as accurate as possible.

Ah well, just look on the bright side: I'll never have to get the battery replaced:roll::-!

And, last but not least, some pictures:










The Delvina compared to my old quartz-watch. I still need to get used to the fact that the Delvina is a bit smaller than my old quartz.










Wrist-shot:-d










The watch and the new bracelet.

So once again: Thanks for all the advice guys, and if I ever experience some kind of trouble with this watch, you all will be the first to know!;-)


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## sixtysix

I like the look with that bracelet! Turned out great! Thanks for sharing.


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## Ceristimo

@Sixtysix
Thanks! At first I needed to get used to it, especially because I was affraid this watch would look a bit tiny on my wrist, but after all it turned out to look great.

And you know what is the most amazing thing about this watch? Believe it or not, but since my watchmaker re-regulated it this saturday it has gained 6 seconds in 4 days! That's a little less then 2 seconds a day!!
I'm really astouned!!I was hoping it would not gain or lose more then 10 seconds a day, but I would have never expected this!
It's not a special watch, nor a special movement, but it's very accurate. I'm just very very lucky, I guess.

And the best part is in the morning: Sitting on the edge of your bed, winding the watch up. I really love that part:-!

It's official now: I have fallen in love with mechanical watches!:-d


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## Ceristimo

Two little things I'd like to add, just as a final closure:

1. It now has a steady rate of gaining 15 seconds during the day, although sometimes it will gain up to 20 seconds, and at night it loses 4 seconds when I put it flat on it's back. I don't have a clue why it was so darn accurate the first week after the oiling, but here's my theory: I only checked the watch every morning agains my RC alarmclock, and I think that it gained and lost quite alot during the day and night, but I never noticed that. Apparently the gain and loss was almost cancelled out again when I woke up and checked it. Now that the oil has settled in it has become more accurate in the sence that it now gains a steady rate every day and loses a steady rate every night. <<--Does that sound like a plausible theory?:-d

When I have time I'll go to the watchmaker again to have it re-regulated, and I can hopefully get it to gain not more then 10 seconds a day.

And secondly:
I finally began with my late springcleaning. And look what I found, somewhere stuffed away in a box full of papers? The original certificate that came with this watch. Too bad there is no year specified, so I will never know the exact year this watch was bought. The price was 147,50 guilders (today US price would be a little over $500,- or €320 Euro's)

So now I've got the whole watch complete again. Too bad my father threw the original leather strap away when he replaced it with that godawful metal bracelet as can be seen in the first picture I posted, or else the whole thing would still be original. Not that I would wear the leather strap, but it would be nice to have it thoughb-)


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## Hartmut Richter

The accuracy of a watch depends on many things:

1. Don't mistake accuracy for consistency. A watch that loses 60 seconds every day is very inaccurate but very consistent. Consistency is more difficult to obtain than accuracy - the former just requires a little regulating (shifting the arm on the balance over to lengthen/shorten the hairspring), the latter may require a major service.

2. Oils do need to settle down a bit aftre a service before the watch acquires its long-term rate.

3. The position of a watch also affects its daily rate the watch differs between horizontal and vertical positions. Whether the watch will gain or lose in one or the other will depend which side of the point of isochronism it is.

4. The same as in 3. can be said for the effect which the degree of winding has on the daily rate. Generally, the watch will perform differently with a fully wound and a nearly unwound mainspring. Whether it will gain or lose will depends on isochronism.

Hartmut Richter


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## Shangas

This has been a very interesting thread to read, Ceristimo, congratulations on getting your father's old mechanical wristwatch running again. I wish my family had such delightful heirlooms... 

I was curious, a watch (or clock or any other mechanical timepiece) that gains time each day, does that indicate that the pallet is stiff and thus not swinging the full distance, which would lead to more frequent (but shorter) swings, which would therefore lead to a speed-up in time? Just trying to learn a few things here...


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## JohnF

Hi -

There could be any number of reasons why a watch runs fast. However, what do you mean by "pallet is stiff"?

Another cause of running significantly fast is a mainspring that is too powerful for the movement (sometimes caused by a watchmaker cutting corners, putting in a mainspring that fits, rather than putting in the right one...), or dirt in the balance pivots, which brake the balance swings and result in the watch going too fast.

But you're right: a balance wheel turning more frequently is more often than not the cause of a movement running too fast...

JohnF


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## Shangas

Sorry, my watch terminology isn't the greatest, I was referring to the pallet that swings back and forth, regulating the speed of the escape-wheel (and which, if I'm correct, produces a watch's distinctive quick, ticking noise). If the pallet was stiff and not moving back and forth correctly, making shorter-than-normal swings, wouldn't that stop and start the balance-wheel more often and speed up the watch? 

Apologies if I'm not making any sense here...


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## Ray MacDonald

If the pallet is not working right you can get a phenomenon called "overbanking" which can stop the watch. I had a bad pallet assembly in my 1909 Elgin which caused this problem.


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## Hartmut Richter

To my knowledge, "knocking the banking" (or overbanking) is more associated with problems in the hairspring (not tight enough) or the mainspring (too much force imparted), not the pallet. The pallet can't really be stiff - if it was, the watch would stop, period! You probably mean the balance wheel, the large wheel swinging to and fro. This will certainly vary in the extent of its swing, depending on a whole load of factors (oiling, regulating, etc.).

Hartmut Richter


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## Ray MacDonald

Well as I remember the pallet had gotten bent or somehow messed up so that the impulse jewel could not go into the fork properly. I think the pallet was on the wrong side when the balance swung round. This definitely would stop the watch. After I got a "new" pallet from 1920 or so, the problem went away, the watch got into beat and everything was OK. It was definitely a problem with the pallet lever though.


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## Ceristimo

I have no idea about the whole pallet and overbanking stuff. To be honost, I don't have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.:-d

But for everybody who, like me, thought there were little gnomes that make a mechanical watch tick: we're wrong!
I came across these two clips on Youtube, and I was amazed. That really is mechanical art!









I now love my watch even more;-)


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, it would stop the watch but it shouldn't result in knocking the banking. Or is "overbanking" different to "knocking the banking"?!

Hartmut Richter


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## JohnF

Hi -

Overbanking is when there are too many banks for the number of potential customers, and there is of course the phrase "knocking over a bank" which has nothing to do with knocking the banking.

In my job, we knock the banks all the time, because their portfolio management usually is pretty bad...

Oh, were we talking about watches?

Never mind... 

Overbanking has to do with the geometry relationships between pallets and escapement wheel, while knocking the banking is something that happens when the escapement and pallet geometry are so far off that rather than meshing perfectly, they effectively bounce off of each other and the banks - banks here in the sense of the movement arcs within which the balance wheel moves - effectively knock, like an engine knocks (irregular detonation of fuel/air mixture).

Knock, knock...

JohnF


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## georges zaslavsky

great watch, normal accuracy when a watch is perfectly tuned even non cosced is from -4 to + 6sec per day.


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## Ceristimo

I still have one little question about this watch (or mechanical watches in general for that matter):
Is it normal that they gain more when it's hot outside? Since yesterday the summer finally settled in, and temperatures here have gone up from a normal 20 degrees celcius (68F) to as much as 33 degrees celcius (91F) outside (this combined with Holland's moisture environment really makes it hard to actually be doing anything with this heat). And now my watch seems to be gaining a lot more (45 seconds a day!). That isn't a good sign, now is it? Ofcourse, I have been outside all day long (walking the dog, sitting in the backyard etc) and the watch has been in the sun all this time, but when I checked it this evening I was shocked to discover it gained nearly 45 seconds since this morning. I got up at 10.30 (had some work to do that lasted till deep in the night) and checked it around dinnertime (18.00). But it now seems to be stable, since it hasn't gained anymore since dinnertime till now (21.45)

I also noticed that the watch gains it's normal 15 seconds in about the first three hours after I wind it in the morning. It will then become stable and almost not gain or lose anything during the day, and then at night it will lose around 3 seconds again, making an avarage gain of 12 seconds per day. So it seems that the force of the mainspring has quite a big impact on the gain. And then I started to think: If I will not rewind it completely, but stop a few turns before the crown won't turn anymore, wouldn't that mean it would almost not gain anything anymore during the day? And would it be bad for the watch to not rewind it a 100%, but only a 90%? Or should I go back and have it re-regulated? (I'm guessing yes)


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## Ray MacDonald

Wind-up watches are designed to be wound fully once a day and then allowed to let themselves down over the course of the next 24-36 hours. With proper design, the tension in the mainspring should not be a major source of variation. Position and heat/cold are bigger factors.
I doubt you can control accuracy much by partially winding the watch.
If I may say so, you are being a little obsessive over accuracy in what is a nearly 40 year old mechanical watch. You are not dealing with quartz accuracy here.
Here's an article on watch adjustment from a website on Elgin watches:

http://elginwatches.org/technical/adjustments.html


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## Ceristimo

Of course you may say so, but allow me to refute that statement. I'm not that obsessive about it's accuracy. I know I can't get it to gain or lose nearly 0 seconds a day and that is't accuracy is nothing compared to my old quartz. And like I said before: I don't really care when it gains or loses a certain amount a day. I've even started to not check the second hand closely anymore, but to see it as an indication the watch is running, not to acutally measure something. I do ofcourse still check the watch from time to time (once every few days) to see how it runs. But yesterday it was somehow a full minute faster then my RC-alarmclock. That is quite out of what I've come to expect from this watch since the month I've been wearing it, so I decided to monitor it closely today.
And so I discovered that it's now gaining alot more then it normally did, and thát concerns me. I mean, I'm not talking about a few seconds here but a 30 seconds gain from what it normally did.

I don't know if that's obsessive behaviour. Maybe it is. I clean the chrystal almost every day and wipe the watch clean quite regularly and sometimes closely inspect it for new scratches. Sometimes I just sit and stare at the thing, admiring the beauty a mechanical watch is. Maybe that's obsessive too, I don't know.
I only posted my question here to see if you guys (who to me are gods when it comes to knowledge about watches) thought 30 seconds off the ordinary is alarming, considering the hot weather outside.
But if you really think I'm getting obsessive about this, forget I even posted it. I'll just continue setting the watch back every day, and when the weather cools down the end of this week, it'll hopefully return to it's normal gain.
If it doesn't, I'll hop by the watchmaker and see what he thinks of it.
Thanks for the link anyway, I'm still learning about watches and websites like that certainly help! 

And I promise I won't bring this watch up ever again, unless something really bad happens and I really need your advise 
Sorry.


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## Eeeb

First off, almost everyone on WUS exhibits some forms of OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Behavior) so don't think it's abnormal around here! :-d I didn't see anything in Ray's response that should cause offense.

Mechanical watches CAN change their timing due to temperature. The springs behave differently at different temperatures. Same for the level of wind in the spring... Indeed, a Nobel prize for physics was awarded to a Swiss scientist who figured out how to minimize all this. |>

However, gravity and variations in position will usually have a much stronger effect on mechanical watch timing than temperature and wind level.

Timing error on the range of 30 seconds per day is pretty large for a new watch... but more important is a CONSISTENCY of error. If the watch is consistently 30 per day off, it can be regulated and made fairly accurate.

If it is off 30 seconds one day and 5 the next and 60 the next, then you have some problems...

Most well running vintage can be adjusted to better than a minute a day... some to 10 to 15 seconds per day... and a few to 2-3 seconds per day.

hope that puts things into perspective... :think:


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## Ray MacDonald

No offense intended and you can post about your watch as much as you want.
Maybe it's just me but I never worry about accuracy on a vintage mechanical watch unless it's gaining 5 minutes a day. Just wind it and set it. Wear it for fun. You can get the exact time off your PC every 30 seconds if you need to.
I take my watches in when they need cleaning and get the watchmaker to regulate it as best he can at that time. Then I never think about it. Most of mine don't hack anyway.


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## Ceristimo

That certainly puts things in perspective. Thanks. I should be glad with the normal 12 seconds gain I get from this watch .

@Ray
I only worried because it gained around 12 seconds a day for a month now (sometimes a few seconds more), and now it suddenly gained 45 seconds, instead of the usual 12-15. Thát got me a bit worried.

About the wearing for fun: at the moment this is the only watch I've got, and I intend to wear it everyday (have been wearing it everyday since I got it back from the watchmaker five weeks ago). When this watch was made it was made to be worn every day, so why shouldn't I? Ofcourse I take greater care of this watch then my quartzwatch. I take it off when I wash my hands or when I'm doing dirty work (working in the garden for instance). I also don't wear it when playing sports. The rest of the time it's always on my wrist. It's accurate enough for day-to-day use (even when it sometimes seems to gain 30 seconds more then usual) and I set it every four to five days to my RC-clock. I set in one minute behind, so after four to five days it has catched up, and then I set in one minute back again.

Well anyway, now I know that I shouldn't be too worried about the watch sometimes gaining a bit more then usual, I just let it be and enjoy it. Maybe go by the watchmaker to have it re-regulated and set to run a lííítle bit slower. Not too slow though: If it gains I don't care, but I couldn't stand a watch that loses seconds everyday 

P.S. My watch doesn't hack either. That's why I've 'learned' myself to ignore the second hand, and to only use it for an indicator that the watch is actually running.


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## Ray MacDonald

Well let me take on the obsessive part for a minute. If you really want to help the watchmaker, let it run for a week or so with winding every day at the same time and normal usage. When you wind it each morning, check its deviation from the actual time off your PC. Don't reset it, just let it run on it's own.
Then you'll see if its gain/loss is consistent or variable. If consistent it's easier to regulate. If variable, it'll take more time and effort to do it.
This type of activity takes lots of time and effort and was one of the main differences between a cheaper and more expensive watch 100 years ago.


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## Ceristimo

Thank you, Ray. That's a helpfull tip. Ofcourse I want to help my watchmaker, so I'm going to do that the following week.


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## Ceristimo

I'm sorry to bother you guys again, but....

Well, the good news is I don't have to monitor my watch for a week to find out how it runs, the bad news is that there seems to be something wrong. Badly.

After one month of fairly consistent running, my watch now somehow runs way too fast after I've wound it. It now gains around 2 minutes and 16 seconds in about the first four to five hours after I've fully wound it. After that it will 'calm down' and continue to run quite smoothly throughout the day, with only gaining an extra 6 seconds or so the rest of the day.

This is not what I had hoped for. I hoped it would run quite nicely after a cleaning and regulation, but now I'm afraid this watch has some underlying problems.

Does anyone know what's causing this? I've been very carefull with this watch, and this strange behaviour just started completely out of the blue a three days ago. I haven't dropped it, haven't bumped it into anything and haven't put in somewhere close to a magnet.

The easy solution will probably be to not fully wind it, or to wind it when I go to bed, so I can set it back two minutes every morning when I get up, but I'm afraid that problems like this will turn into bigger problems later on.


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## Eeeb

Ceristimo said:


> ... Does anyone know what's causing this? ...


Things break. Your watchmaker will be able to say what.

The solution to your concern is simple... get more watches! If you have a bunch of watches then one of them breaking like this is just another watch you have to have your watchmaker look at! It puts things in better perspective :-d


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## Marrick

The watchmakers I have used guarantee their work for 6 months or a year. Take it back to him - he might sort it out for free. Or at least for very little as he will know that the movement has just been properly cleaned. Good luck.


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## Hartmut Richter

I suspect that the watch might be "knocking the banking". This happens when the balance wheel swings round too far, thereby knocking the outsides of the anchor (lever) fork with its transmission stone. The fork is normally there for the transmission stone to hit the inside on its swing round, thereby

a) flicking the lever over to allow the escapement wheel to move round by one tooth (so to speak) and

b) passing on some energy to the balance wheel for the next swing round.

If the transmission stone hits the outside of the fork, it will meet severe resistance and bounce off it, making the balance spin erratically for a while until it settles down again. Needless to say, the accuracy of the watch will suffer - the watch will gain markedly.

Knocking the banking is often the result of too strong a mainspring (too much force transmitted to the balance). This seems to be confirmed in your case since the phenomenon is occurring mainly when the watch is freshly wound up. A mainspring replacement is relatively simple and, due to the comparatively generic nature of mainsprings (not like bridges, plates and friction springs, which are highly movement specific), should be feasible in a vintage movement.

Good luck!

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

@Eeb
Haha, you're probably right. Altough this is my father's old watch and therefore will always be more special to me then another. I'm also not really the kind of person to collect watches. If I would have five watches, there will always be one I find the most beautifull or special, and that will probably be the only watch I'll wear then. 
I do now have two mechanical watches though. I just found my great-grandfather's watch (it was in the same drawer as this Delvina watch, but I somehow missed in the first time I was searching through the drawer) but I'll open another topic on that one.

@Marrick and Harmut
Hmm, funny how some of you guys were discussing the whole overbanking issue on the previous page, and now my watch seems to be suffering from it. Well, off to the watchmaker once again to see what he thinks about it. I hope this is still covered by guarantee. The shop is closed in the weekends, and the watchmaker isn't around untill tuesday, so I have to wait a few days. I'll report back to you guys on what my watchmaker makes of this.


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## Ceristimo

Okay, just got back from the watchmaker who got to play with it this morning.

He thought that the hairspring wasn't the original one, but he wasn't certain about this. So this left me with two options:

1.) I'll have him replace the hairspring for €25,- ($39,-), without the gaurantee that it would actually solve anything
2.) I leave the watch at his shop so he can examine it more closely, but this would cost me also.

And then he said: "If I were you, I just let it be. It gains only one to two minutes and I can assure you that this isn't in any way harmfull to the watch. If it would gain a few hours with a fully wound mainspring I would do something about it, but this isn't something you should worry about".

So, I've decided that I'm not going to do anything about this. It has already become a second nature to wind it when I go to bed and set it back one minute when I wake up anyway, so I can't really be bothered with this little quirk. It gains only 1 to 5 seconds during the day, so it's more then accurate enough for everyday life (as long as you don't forget to set it back one or two minutes in the morning  )If the problem gets progressively worse I ofcourse will take the watch to the watchmaker again.


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## Hartmut Richter

That sounds somewhat disappointing - in more ways than one! It doesn't really answer the question as to what is at the root of the problem. If the hairspring isn't original (presumably it is too weak), he should be able to tell whether it really is knocking the banking when fully wound. Doesn't he have an electronic timing machine? If so, the pattern of the output when the watch is fully wound should immediately confirm or disprove that problem (it looks very erratic). This alone should tell that either the mainspring is too strong or the haispring is too weak. Replacing either would only be useful if you pick a replacement of the right strength. Just guessing is no use - and it sounds a little as if that's what he is doing. If you pay that much cash, you have a right to be guaranteed the right result at the end.

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

He said the watch wasn't knocking the banking (that's why he said this problem wasn't harmfull). I'm not sure if he has an electronic timing machine. I think he has one, 'cause he does al kinds of watchrepairs and regulating. Regulating without a timingmachine would be kinda hard to do, isn't it? But maybe he was just guessing about the watch not knocking the banking, because I had the feeling he based this upon the fact that the watch only gains one or two minutes, instead of hours.

And you're right: When I left the shop I also had this annoying feeling that he was just guessing as to what the root of the problem is, and that he acutally just doesn't want to look at the watch. Because when he told me my options and I was still thinking about them, he suddenly came with this "if i were you, I wouldn't do anything about it".
Problem is: I don't know any other watchmakers in the near vicinity, so I don't really have anybody else to turn to. 
And ofcourse, when paying that much cash, he should guarentee me that the problem is solved. That's why I choose not to replace the hairspring.

So what are you suggesting? That I go back and demand that this is going to get fixed? My guess is that he's just going to replace parts, untill the problem is fixed, or that he's going to say he doesn't know what the problem is (after replacing the hairspring).


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## Ray MacDonald

I think for now I would just leave it and wear it for a month or so and see.
I have this 1953 Waltham wind-up that I dropped and broke the balance staff.
My watchmaker friend replaced the staff and adjusted the hairspring using his timing machine.
Soon after I moved 400 Km away from him. Then my Waltham started gaining 15 minutes a day when I wound it up. I was just about to send it back to my friend by mail when it stopped doing this and now it runs fine. No appreciable gain or loss.
I might suggest you take off your watch after you wind it at night and try leaving it at rest in various positions - dial down, dial up, crown down, crown up - and see if this makes a difference. When my Waltham gained time it was always with the dial up and off my wrist.


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## Ceristimo

I always take off my watch when I'm going to bed. I always have it dial up, flat on it's back, but I'll try other positions. I have no idea what the crown down and crown up postitions are (your Waltham watch would be crown down in that picture?), but I'm going to experiment with it the following days. I'll let you know how it turns out.

B.T.W.: Nice watch. I really love those off-centre second hands.


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## Ray MacDonald

Right. The Waltham in the picture is crown down.
I'm wearing it now. It's actually quite a tiny watch, not much larger than a postage stamp. But I have small wrists so it's OK. It's very comfortable and light - almost unnoticeable.


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## Hartmut Richter

The reason why I though it is knocking the banking is that the problem only occurs when the watch is fully wound (maximum mainspring power). I know of no other way that this could occur but am willing to be corrected by an expert. However, obviously, your man isn't an expert either in spite of his shop and trade! I would certainly not press him - if he doesn't want to do business with you, you can't force him. At best, he is clueless, at worst, he is lazy. In spite of all that, I would be wary of running the watch if it is really knocking the banking, at least at full power where this seems to be happening - it can shatter the transmission stone and that would be hell to get a replacement for.

Good luck.

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

But can it really be knocking the bank when it gains so little? From all I've read on the internet, watches that are knocking the banking are gaining several hours with a fully wound spring.
Is there any way of telling that a watch is 'knocking the bank'? Is this audible when you listen closely?
The watchmaker assured me that this wasn't harmfull, but then again: He indeed seemed a bit clueless, so he might as well just be saying something to stop me from coming in with this watch.


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## Hartmut Richter

Yes, you're right, you would expect a watch to gain more if it was knocking the banking. However, if the problem only came at full mainspring power and then subsided, the gain wouldn't be so much.

You should be able to hear "knocking the banking" - the regular "tick-tick" gets extremely erratic every now and then (sort of "tick tick tick *ticka-ticka-ticka-tick* tick tick" with the bold bit going very fast). The only other thing I can surmise is that the watch is way off isochronism and therefore liable to go either faster or slower at full mainspring power (which of the two it is depends on which side you are of isochronism). This would be consistent with someone having buggered up the hairspring and/or this not being original. However, I am surprised that this is only happening at absolute full power and that the rate doesn't gradually deteriorate further but settles down to a nice even rate. Normally, bad deviations from isochronism only become apparent when you are working below 50% power or so.

Hartmut Richter


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## Ceristimo

Well, I have listened very closely to the watch (with a fully wound spring) for about five minutes (after that I almost fell asleep:-d), and it's just a very nice even ticking-sound. Never heard one erratic beat.

And here's something strange: I tried another position this night. I kept it crown up. When I checked it this morning it had not gained a second! Now, maybe this is purely coincidential and it will gain a few minutes again this night in the crown up position, but we'll just have to wait and see. I really hope another position will solve this problem, so I can finally enjoy this watch without having to worry about it.


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## Hartmut Richter

Right, so we can rule out knocking the banking then!

The fact that the watch gains when put face up/down and doesn't gain when put crown up is no coincidence. The friction on the ends of the balance staff is greater in the "hanging" positions than in the "lying" positions so that the balance will swing less strongly when the watch is "hanging" which should result in a slower rate. if you started with a gain, the relative loss will now make the watch go accurately. Maybe it was adjusted to the "lying" positions in the first place. In any case, you obviously have bad deviation from isochronism, meaning that the degree of swing of the balance depends greatly on the force imparted and the frictional forces involved. If you hit the point of isochronism, the balance will take exactly the same amount of time to execute a large swing as a weak one. You are obviously nowhere near that. Replacing the hairspring is the first step towards solving this problem but you then have to tailor the new one to the balance! Obviously not the job for your chappie who offered to "try" for 39 bucks or so.

You're right - accept the fact and try to keep it overnight in the right position or spend some cash on it - but please, for the sake of our peace of mind, go to someone else!

Hartmut Richter


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## Ray MacDonald

I agree with Hartmut that seeking another watchmaker would be a good idea. This one you have selected seems a bit strange to me as well. I'm sure that some of our colleagues from the Netherlands can help with a recommendation.
However, I think the time has come to just let things be with this watch. You can always look for another mechanical watch and then you can occupy your time and money with that one. That is the normal progression in this collector's hobby.


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## JimH

At the risk of prolonging what has become a very long thread I have a few comments.

First, at one point in the thread the movement in the watch was said to be an ST 974. How was this determined? I have never seen a picture of the actual movement by the OP (original poster). If this determination was made from the ebay watch auction the OP posted saying that it looked like his watch then it should be remembered that this was not the OP's actual watch.

Second, I think the watchmaker in this scenario has been taking a undeserved beating. All comments attributed to the watchmaker are second-hand re-telling from the OP who is not a watchmaker. Apparently he has gone back to the watchmaker with advice (not all good) from this forum and then tells us what he thinks the watchmaker said. One example was about possible "knocking". Now the watchmaker (any watchmaker) would immediately know if "knocking" was occurring and he told the OP that it was not "knocking". The statement about the, "hairspring might have been replaced", sounds like it has lost something in translation. I suspect that the watchmaker probably was talking about the "mainspring" not hairspring since the wrong mainspring (too strong) would be a likely cause for "knocking". This discussion was probably just theoretical musing by the watchmaker since he knew the watch was not "knocking". Note that even if the watch were not "knocking" the balance amplitude at full-wind of the mainspring might be too high affecting accuracy.

This watch (not really a high-quality watch to start with) is 40 years old and possibly has not been well maintained. It may have significant wear and may no longer be capable of maintaining a consistent rate in the various positions (if it ever was). If this is the case it is impossible to set the watch to a rate which will be precisely accurate for all patterns of wearing, resting position, etc. For example, the watch may be quite fast in some positions and quite slow in others. It sounds like the watchmaker originally set the watch to a rate that was 20 sec/day fast in one position with the expectation (from knowing the rates in the other positions) the average rate would then be acceptable.

Bottom line: the watch was serviced and the crown replaced for a reasonable fee and the watch improved from being more than 10 minutes fast per day to being much more accurate. The measurements by the OP seem to be all over the place (from almost dead-on to +15 seconds, to +2 minutes, etc.). How does anyone know if these are really accurate measurements? The watchmaker has basically been saying, "Hey, this is a 40 year old watch with a generic movement, more work may not improve time-keeping accuracy and might be money ill-spent". He might also feel that the expectations of the OP are unrealistic. Not every ordinary watch performs like a certified chronometer nor should it be expected to.


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## Ceristimo

JimH said:


> At the risk of prolonging what has become a very long thread I have a few comments.
> 
> First, at one point in the thread the movement in the watch was said to be an ST 974. How was this determined?


Indeed by the watch that was on ebay, which is the exact same watch (apart from the colour of the dial).


> Second, I think the watchmaker in this scenario has been taking a undeserved beating.


You may be right about that one. He did after all did a great job on the cleaning and oiling.


> This watch (not really a high-quality watch to start with) is 40 years old and possibly has not been well maintained.


Seeing how this watch almost looks new I beg to differ. My dad has always been very caring about this watch. About the high-quality. I'm not sure about that, since I have no knowledge about the movement. Still, this wasn't the cheapest watch around.


> Bottom line: the watch was serviced and the crown replaced for a reasonable fee and the watch improved from being more than 10 minutes fast per day to being much more accurate.


 Not much of a suprise there. It hadn't be used for almost ten years, so a cleaning and re-oiling alone would make it a lot more accurate.


> The measurements by the OP seem to be all over the place (from almost dead-on to +15 seconds, to +2 minutes, etc.). How does anyone know if these are really accurate measurements?


Because I timed this with two clocks, acutally. A digital stopwatch and my radiocontrolled alarmclock. Both my stopwatch and alarmclock where telling the exact time. Now, unless they're both broken, it's safe to say they were right. When I first got the watch back, it lost more then a minute a day. After the regulating it was almost spot on. After a week or so it started to gain around 15 seconds a day, and then out of the blue it started to gain with a fully wound spring, and then settled down to a normal rate. Those are all measurements made by using two different clocks, so they're a quite accurate.


> The watchmaker has basically been saying, "Hey, this is a 40 year old watch with a generic movement, more work may not improve time-keeping accuracy and might be money ill-spent".


No, he said: I can change the spring. I don't know if it's gonna help, I give you no guarentee. If the spring doesn't help, I'll try something else. That gave me the feeling he either didn't know what caused the erratic behaviour of the watch, or he just didn't care.


> He might also feel that the expectations of the OP are unrealistic. Not every ordinary watch performs like a certified chronometer nor should it be expected to.


And I wasn't! Before I brought this watch to the watchmaker, I've read alot of topics on this forum about accuracy, I've googled alot and opened a topic. I knew it wouldn't perform like my quartzwatch. And frankly, I didn't care. I can live with a watch gaining a certain amount a day, as long as it's a bit constintent. A watch that gains nothing one day, and two minutes the following is just plain annoying and I don't think that this is something I should take for granted, nor something to be expected.
I brought this watch to the watchmaker, told him the problem (it doesn't keep good time and hasn't been used for 10 years) and asked him if he could fix it. He said a cleaning, oiling and regulating would probably be enough, but if he bumped into any problems, he'd call me. He díd call me, and said the crown was worn out. He also said that the movement *didn't show any signs whatsoever of any wear, and that I could expect this watch to run consistent and to use it for decades to come*. Well, and it hasn't, and this got me pissed of a bit.

That's all. But you're right. This topic is way to long, and we can be jabbing about this watch forever. I'll use it as it is, and if it start's to act funny again it's going back in the drawer where it came from.
I'll go back to the average 50 dollar quartzwatch. At least you can throw does away without remorse when they're broken.


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## JimH

Ceristimo said:


> Indeed by the watch that was on ebay, which is the exact same watch (apart from the colour of the dial).


Note that your watch may have a different movement even though it appears externally to be identical. It really makes no difference, but, I was interested because the auction item link is now no longer available.



Ceristimo said:


> Seeing how this watch almost looks new I beg to differ. My dad has always been very caring about this watch. About the high-quality. I'm not sure about that, since I have no knowledge about the movement. Still, this wasn't the cheapest watch around.


By well maintained I mean getting the watch serviced every 5 years or so. If this is not done old, contaminated lubrication can cause internal wear. You probably wouldn't know the service history of the watch. Note that this has nothing to do with the sort of physical care your father gave the watch. I'm sure he babied it but many watch owners ignore the service intervals opting to wait until the watch has a problem.

On quality: If the movement is, indeed, an ST 974 then this is an average quality movement which might have have been accurate to -20+20 seconds per day when it was new.

Regarding accuracy of timing:



Ceristimo said:


> Because I timed this with two clocks, actually. A digital stopwatch and my radiocontrolled alarmclock. Both my stopwatch and alarmclock where telling the exact time. Now, unless they're both broken, it's safe to say they were right. When I first got the watch back, it lost more then a minute a day. After the regulating it was almost spot on. After a week or so it started to gain around 15 seconds a day, and then out of the blue it started to gain with a fully wound spring, and then settled down to a normal rate. Those are all measurements made by using two different clocks, so they're a quite accurate.


OK, I'll take your measurements as accurate. What is the watch doing now?



Ceristimo said:


> No, he said: I can change the spring. I don't know if it's gonna help, I give you no guarentee. If the spring doesn't help, I'll try something else. That gave me the feeling he either didn't know what caused the erratic behaviour of the watch, or he just didn't care.


Of course, my statement was the intent of what the watchmaker was trying to convey to you not a literal quote. Specifically I was referring to your quote from the watch maker, *"If I were you, I'd just let it be. It gains only one to two minutes and I can assure you that this isn't in any way harmful to the watch. If it would gain a few hours with a fully wound mainspring I would do something about it, but this isn't something you should worry about".* What you quote the watchmaker as saying now is new.

More news from you (the bold section):



Ceristimo said:


> I brought this watch to the watchmaker, told him the problem (it doesn't keep good time and hasn't been used for 10 years) and asked him if he could fix it. He said a cleaning, oiling and regulating would probably be enough, but if he bumped into any problems, he'd call me. He díd call me, and said the crown was worn out. *He also said that the movement didn't show any signs whatsoever of any wear, and that I could expect this watch to run consistent and to use it for decades to come*. Well, and it hasn't, and this got me pissed of a bit.


You didn't mention this statement from the watchmaker before. It sounds more now like you are upset with the watchmaker in that you feel he gave you false expectations of what you should expect from the watch. Given the nominal amount that you were charged for the service & repair I doubt that the inspection of the movement could be so thorough that the watchmaker could or should have made such a statement. Perhaps you felt the watchmaker should have made good on his statement gratis no matter what it took?



Ceristimo said:


> That's all. But you're right. This topic is way to long, and we can be jabbing about this watch forever. I'll use it as it is, and if it start's to act funny again it's going back in the drawer where it came from. I'll go back to the average 50 dollar quartzwatch. At least you can throw does away without remorse when they're broken


Sounds sensible. However, try not to be so disappointed in your father's old watch. I'm sure it was no more reliable for him when he last used it. It may be that your research has led you to overestimate the performance of vintage watches. What is reported here and elsewhere is generally just the good news. You don't hear as much of the bad news. After all who wants to brag about how inaccurate their watch is? ;-)


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## Ray MacDonald

OK we've all had a good discussion on this and many good points have been made. The last two posts summarized the whole situation quite well and I don't want this to become a Cafe type dialog. So this thread is closed.


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