# Riedenschild



## LACYJEN1999 (Jan 14, 2007)

Is this brand considered a german watch brand. I saw some of their models posted on RLT's website. I thought the chronograph models looked pretty good. But I nevered heard of the brand or the movement they use. Can any one provide any information regarding this brand and the movement they use..


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## Tragic (Feb 11, 2006)

Assembled in Germany using Swiss quartz and auto mvmnts.

http://www.riedenschild.de/english/


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

You may use our search the forum button or you may click here to get some information.


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

It seems people on the board don't quite get that Riedenschild is made in Germany. This aint no Trias folks. 

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2007)

Hi Thomas,

Are you the Tom Carey who - according to MacUser.de - is affiliated with fine-time.us and selling Riedenschild ? Just curious.

source: http://macuser.de/forum/showthread.php?t=275559&page=4


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## heb (Feb 24, 2006)

*I'm thinking about getting one of their chronograph watches*

:-sHello,

But, based on pictures of them, I can't figure out how to read their elapsed time sudials to get...the elaspsed time. Are they using the base 10 number system? Take a look.


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## Nauticus (Jun 24, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Hi Thomas,
> 
> Are you the Tom Carey who - according to MacUser.de - is affiliated with fine-time.us and selling Riedenschild ? Just curious.
> 
> source: http://macuser.de/forum/showthread.php?t=275559&page=4


Hi Mike,

there are two things I would pay money for to get installed:
1.) An official guideline that clearly defines the legal claim for 'made in Germany'
2.) Sort of an affirmation, that each member of this forum doesn't act with a professional interest...(for those, there is the seller's area available)

Thank's for your doggedness and constancy ;-)


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2007)

Nauticus said:


> Sort of an affirmation, that each member of this forum doesn't act with a professional interest...(for those, there is the seller's area available)


Well that´s why I asked him. ;-)
It´s not gentleman like if you sing somebody´s praise and hiding you´re a dealer. Other guy´s don´t hide and I really appreciate that.

BTW: Thanks for your kind words.


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## XTrooper (Feb 8, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Well that´s why I asked him. ;-)
> It´s not gentleman like if you sing somebody´s praise and hiding you´re a dealer. Other guy´s don´t hide and I really appreciate that.
> 
> BTW: Thanks for your kind words.


While I don't disagree, this doesn't invalid his statement. Riedenschild watches *are* assembled in Germany. b-)


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

Yes I am the Tom Carey from Fine-Time. As a dealer of the brand I do know a lil about them. =) sheesh web translation still has a long way to go. Thanks for posting that link. It does not seem to be too flattering. They also seem to not like each other too much. Oh and I am not trying to hide. At the same time I am not trying to sell which is why I am not in here saying hey check out my site I am a dealer etc... I just made a simple statement.

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## whachudoin (Jun 20, 2007)

I believe they use Citizen Miyota 8215.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

_"It seems people on the board don't quite get that Riedenschild is made in Germany."_

Tom, thank you for the insight. When you type such a sentence, you should also disclose that you are a dealer and you are speaking from first hand knowledge. Don't just say that we "don't get it".

The watches are made in Germany but the company uses unmodified Swiss as well as Japanese movements. I am not sure about the cases and other parts. You can perhaps enlighten us.

_"This aint no Trias folks."_
Well.....hmmmmmm

Cheers


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

Let me change this to they are hand assembled in Germany. They do have a model coming out later this year that is 100% German made. Also there are many changes coming regarding the type and source of movements. No this does not mean they are going to chinese movements. Can't say more about it as there has not been an official release of info yet. The cases and so on come from the same place that 80-90% of the markets cases etc. come from. Those parts are also made in the same manner. Fact is they are not chinese watches that are pretending to be something else like many of the watches on the market these days. 

At the same time these are not Stowas, Sinns, Omega's etc. 

They are at a higher level than Trias and it's brethren. 

Which is reflected in their higher prices. 

They are quality watches for the average middle class blue collar worker. Who wants a quality time piece that fits their budget. 

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2007)

Tom Carey said:


> Let me change this to they are hand assembled in Germany. They do have a model coming out later this year that is 100% German made. Also there are many changes coming regarding the type and source of movements. No this does not mean they are going to chinese movements. Can't say more about it as there has not been an official release of info yet. The cases and so on come from the same place that 80-90% of the markets cases etc. come from. Those parts are also made in the same manner. Fact is they are not chinese watches that are pretending to be something else like many of the watches on the market these days.
> 
> At the same time these are not Stowas, Sinns, Omega's etc.
> 
> ...


I am not going to discuss if Riedenschild (or Cellino, Thunderbirds) are (any) better than Trias. I´ll leave that to Sisyphus but I am keen to get to know what "Gematik" (German made movements according to openPR.de and other sources) will be about:

(quote Riedenschild GmbH press release)
• movements
o Swiss Made movements (ETA, Ronda, ISA)
o Japan Made movements (Citizen, Seiko)
o German Made (Gematik)
(end quote)

This one is supposed to be equipped with a Gematik caliber ?










Pic by uhren-ass.de. 379 Euro with a german made movement. I can´t believe it´s fitted with a german made movement. Qua dial I´d say it´s a Seagull or a vintage Venus movement. But you can hardly get a Venus movement fo 379 Euro. So Tom what is it ???


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

Mike,

The Cellino is just a fashion watch brand and I would not say it's better than Trias. Also I am not saying Trias is a bad brand at all. I own some of their watches myself. I am simply saying Riedenschild is at a higher level in the market and the price reflects. Just as Sinn is at a higher level than Riedenschild. For the moment at least. The brand may head upscale at some point. One never knows.

Here is a ton info on the Gematic. No it's not Chinese.

This bit of history Of the movement comes from James Elsener owner of Edouard Lauzieres (His fine brand will be in the North American market this fall. I will be carrying the brand as well.) and the most knowledgable person I know of in the swiss watch industry. This was originally posted on my forum at bdwf.

"To evaluate the true core of the *GEMatic* automatic movements we have do dive somewhat into the history of German watch making. 

The Germans have a very long tradition in precision mechanics that spans back centuries much like the Swiss do. 

The German centre of excellence in precision mechanics was centred on the town Ruhla in Thuringia. Around Ruhla they had found iron ore and the German coal mines were not far off either. What started out before the dark ages as sword, knife and weapons industry turned in the 1860s into precision mechanics. Let's say that the people's DNA hold the steel-gene by that time just like the steel-gene is part of the gene pool of the people in the Swiss Jura Mountains region. 

In 1862 the brothers Thiel founded a company making various items in steel. Slowly they evolved into watch making too. The rapid expansion began in 1892 when they launched the pocket watch 'Fearless'. This watch was exported to the US in huge numbers and became an instant hit there. The success of the fearless led to the rapid expansion of the Thiel-empire. In 1906 they launched the first Thiel wristwatch the Thiela. In this watch they used a Swiss movement which they later started manufacturing under licence themselves. Their movement of the 'Fearless' was too big to be housed in a wrist watch. 

Next to the Thiel Company, firms like Glashütte, A. Lange & Söhne saw the light of the day. They were all founded by people that had once worked for or with the Thiel brothers. All in all some 60 to 70 firms were founded in the region by former Thiel employees or former partners. 

Ruhla became a very big centre of excellence in precision mechanics and above all watches. In the 1930s it was probably the world's biggest watch manufacturing town. Above all of them towered the Ruhla-Werke, the company founded by the Thiel brothers. 

After the war they started up manufacturing watches again in what was then the Soviet occupied zone that later spawned into the DDR (German Democratic Republic). In 1952 the Thiel-Werke were nationalised by the GDR's government and were welded into the unruly VEB Rhula (VEB standing for company owned by the people of the GDR) together with most of the other watch makers of the region. Amongst them were Urosa, Rossla-Werke, Guhl Glashütte, A. Lange & Söhne and Eichmüller. 

In 1963 the Ruhla-Werke launched their famous calibre 24. It was a hand-winder in the best tradition of watch making. It was based on the the technology the Thiel brothers had licenced from their Swiss suppliers. Needless to say that the GDR conveniently 'forgot' to continue paying the royalties agreed upon. Till the demise of the VBE Ruhla-Werke in early 1990s they manufactured some 120 millions pieces of this movement! The calibre 24 was used in most of the watches made in the GDR in those years. The manufacturing of the movement was from the start highly automated. Back then we in Switzerland were still toying with adding more manpower to our factories and robots were close to unknown of here. The strange thing is that robotics was spawned by Ruhla-Werke in the early 1960s with the advent of the calibre 24. Imagine that the GDR started robotics to replace people in the manufacturing chain. The GDR being known as the workers' and peasants' paradise! 

Shortly after the collapse of the GDR in 1989 the VEB Ruhla-Werke was dismantled and the different units either started a life of their own like Guhl, A. Lange & Söhne or Glashütte, brands that quickly went to the top part of the market again where they were before having been nationalised in the 1950s or simply disappeared after a while like Urosa, Rossla, Thiela or EichmÃ¼ller did. What did not disappear however were the moulds and dies, the machinery and the blue-prints of the movements made by the VEB Ruhla-Werke group of companies. The German Treuhandanstalt (the government body that oversaw the dismantling and decommissioning of the industry of the GDR), strangely kept the factories mothballed. Why, no one knows! 

Eichmüller was on of the best German movement manufacturers. Some investors bought up the remnants of the firm and started making movements again in small numbers a few years ago. These movements are trustworthy ones and will be even better in the years to come. They invest princely sums in the evolutionary development of the movements and in the basic research they do jointly with universities' labs and companies in the watch making and metallurgy industries in Germany, in Switzerland and in Japan for instance. So whenever Riedenschild or any other German watch company decides on using Eichmüller movements in their watches they go for a sound technology. 

Just a short note on how advanced the Eichmüller people were. They were the first to develop a movement that got its accuracy impulse through radio waves from an atomic precision clock at the University of Berlin. This was in the early 1960s when they were ordered to start developing the highest precision watches possible for the officers of the defunct Soviet Union's atomic bomb attack forces. The principle of the radio controlled watch was invented by the Germans in the 1940s already. Back then technology did not permit getting it truly alive and kicking. The VEB Ruhla-Werke launched the first series of these radio controlled watches by the mid-1960s. Today only a few manufacturers still make these watches. Most of them in Germany. Junghans and Gardé coming to mind at that. 

The *GEMatic* is a direct descendant of the Calibre 24' automatic version and thus a descendant of the movement that later evolved into ETA's 2824 and 2892 ranges. I personally wish the investors the success they merit with their initiative. They represent a good alternative to ETA. To me this avenue is closed however as their precision automatic movements are made in Germany only. 

Hope to have shed some light on the German watch industry and on the Eichmuller in particular."

The movement is being made exclusively for Riedenschild by a company in Japan using the original tooling which James talked about in his post. Riedenschild has other movements coming this year as well. At least one I know of will also carry the Gematic name. The Gematic mechanical really is a gorgous movement with a long history. 

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2007)

If Gematic is produced in Japan - let's say with original german tools, it's a japanese movement, right ? Like a Poljot 3133 produced with swiss tools is a russian movement ?:think: German made is absolutely misleading, wouldn't you agree,

I read your post on TheWatchBoard.com too so I knew the watchmaking story already but I saw this pic which imho doesn't show any german made related movement. Imho it is a Seagull movement which I believe to be the ST 19. You stated: "First up here is a picture of a Gematic movement as seen through a Blue Pearl Chrono exhibition back."










ST 19 pic borrowed from equation of time:










I wonder what you are talking about.

BTW: You wrote that the Gematic is a direct descendant of the Calibre 24' automatic version and thus a descendant of the movement that later evolved into ETA's 2824 and 2892 ranges. 
Isn't the ETA 2824 (first appeared in 1962) a descendant of the 1948 Eterna-Matic movements (1198) ?










I wonder what the cal. 24 is about ? Could you share some more details, pics ?


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## Tom Carey (Jul 5, 2007)

Mike,

Where did I personally say the movement is related somehow to the 2824. I did not. However the person I quote did. So you would have ask him. Also now you are telling me that the chinese designed their own movements? ROTFL!


Also where did I say the Gematic is now German made? You are so fun to post with. :-! Now why don't you go ahead and say we are all lieing and the movment is really made in China do it. Say the Riedenschild company is lieing. =) 

Next your going to tell me your favorite German brands are german made even those that have Swiss movements correct? 

Best Regards,

Thomas Carey


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2007)

Tom Carey said:


> Mike,
> 
> Where did I personally say the movement is related somehow to the 2824. I did not. However the person I quote did. So you would have ask him. Also now you are telling me that the chinese designed their own movements? ROTFL!


Point taken, it was another guy though and you just took his text and checked not back ? I never said that the Chinese designed their own movements. What I did say: The Gematic looks very similar to a chinese movement ST 19 which - as we all know - is copied from a swiss Venus movement of "better times". You may search this forum for "Seagull" and you`ll find my statements regarding the "history" of Seagull movements but I am sure they are produced in the PRoC.



> Also where did I say the Gematic is now German made? You are so fun to post with. :-! Now why don't you go ahead and say we are all lieing and the movment is really made in China do it. Say the Riedenschild company is lieing. =)


Point taken but I clearly quoted a Riedenschild press-release ( http://openpr.de/news/120310/Das-Wa...enschild-dockt-endlich-in-Nordamerika-an.html ) and quoted your post on TheWatchboard.com. I am not saying that you or Riedenschild are lying but who ever states that the Gematic movement in the pic shown by you at TheWatchboard.com is related to "made in Germany" or "German made" must be wrong. I can`t see any differences to the ST 19, besides some more decoration.



> Next your going to tell me your favorite German brands are german made even those that have Swiss movements correct?


No. But there's still a difference of "Made in Germany with a swiss heart" and "Made elswhere pretending to be german made", right ?


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

The movement in the Riedenschild definitely looks like the Chinese made Seagull ST-19. The striping is the same on the balance cock. 

The Chinese may not have come up with the movement, but they have been using it since the 60's. Seagull produces all their movements in mainland China. 

If you were to put that pic of the Riedenschild in the Chinese forum, many would say it was just another watch with the Seagull ST-19. I personally think it is a good movement, but it does need better quality control to make it more robust and it needs better made parts. If these are being sourced from Asia, Riedenschild should ask for blank movements and really make them their own and make them better quality. They should also be more upfront about the Gematic company. I have no problems with the movement coming from Asia. My problem comes when it is trying to be something it is not.


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## Riedenschild (Dec 18, 2006)

Hi
I have been following this tread and feel i need to chime in here. The 1st Generation of Gematic movements are Seagul but were only used as a initial movement to test the quality. The price also reflects this movement being used. GeMatic is also a movement that has various qualities of movements offered. Gematic will be using a various of base movements from around the world as base and building/ decorating them. GeMatic also has it's own movement that is according with the statement from James elsner with the history of Eichmüller. This movement will be 100% German made and also decorated from Thomas Ninchritz... This is a watchmaker in nürnberg that has been decorating movements in third generation. Also a note of History THE FIRST WEARABLE WATCH CAME OUT OF NÜRNBERG GERMANY, in the 1520's Peter Henlein google and you will find this ! The GeMatic Movements will be tested and certified and award winning .... The GeMatic movements will be placed in the differnt lines of riedenschild products and to be honest in a few others that we love and hold dearly as certain groups in switzerland has closed it doors for buying potential and also with the new rules 80/20 the majority of SWISS MADE brands we love and hold dearly will not be SWISS MADE anymore ! That will awaken the market. I am in no way a expert in the watch world but being in this world as a manufacture and not as just a customer with a bit of forum knowledge it does give me the advantage to have a bit of other information. I would love to see the eyes of some of the writers in different forums when they were to get to go to Hong Kong watch and clock fair as a buyer and really look around... It is really a whole different world. 

I hope this clears up any issues and misunderstandings or maybe in created more. Really does not matter to us though as we have a strong customer base that is growing and growing and still a very low return rate! So if everything was chinese we would gone out of business along time ago. Also if the worlds largest Distribution network in China is now carrying Riedenschild along with 100 other known brands i would think they would have done their homework first or? 

Cheers and have fun reading and please keep your comments original and educated and not off the cuff and unprofessional... I do not respond or get involved in ...edited..., no time and or desire to waste the beutifull TIME we have to enjoy life ! And if you do not like or believe what i am saying then dont buy our watches, real easy or try and produce something of your own first and then we can chat again ;-)

Cheers once again
Dr. James Newell
Riedenschild Precision Instruments 
Director of International operations
Owner of Riedenschild Precision Instruments of North America

Edited by moderator: Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language. Members who have personal issues with other members must resolve their differences outside the forum.


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## cnmark (Jul 30, 2006)

thodgins said:


> The movement in the Riedenschild definitely looks like the Chinese made Seagull ST-19. The striping is the same on the balance cock.
> 
> The Chinese may not have come up with the movement, but they have been using it since the 60's. Seagull produces all their movements in mainland China.
> 
> If you were to put that pic of the Riedenschild in the Chinese forum, many would say it was just another watch with the Seagull ST-19. I personally think it is a good movement, but it does need better quality control to make it more robust and it needs better made parts. If these are being sourced from Asia, Riedenschild should ask for blank movements and really make them their own and make them better quality. They should also be more upfront about the Gematic company. I have no problems with the movement coming from Asia. My problem comes when it is trying to be something it is not.


Right, it's definitely a Seagull ST19 - I just answered to that very question in the Chinese forum...


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## Guest (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks for chiming in. Time will tell though


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

When will the first German made Gematic movements be made available? Also how is Gematic and Riedenschild making the Seagull ST-19 movement better and different? I would totally decorate those hand winding chronograph movements differently and make them your own to distance yourself from Seagull. Just a thought. 

I totally look forward to these future movements. Please keep us totally updated. 

Thank you for the clarification.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

_ "Really does not matter to us though as we have a strong customer base that is growing and growing and still a very low return rate!"_

Ford said the something similar about the Pinto cars.

James, thank you for the post and I look forward to the development of Gematic movement.

However, I will be honest that one of the main reason I buy German watches is the attention to the customer and buying experience. I enjoyed that experience with Stowa, Nomos, Glashutte Original, Tutima, Guinand, Chronoswiss, and Lange.

After reading your post I believe I cannot receive the same attention and service from Riedenschild. Your "take it or leave it" attitude is very different than other respected German watch makers.

I am glad that you are mass marketing the watch in China and elsewhere.

I wish you all the best.


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## Riedenschild (Dec 18, 2006)

hotnerd said:


> _ "Really does not matter to us though as we have a strong customer base that is growing and growing and still a very low return rate!"_
> 
> Ford said the something similar about the Pinto cars.
> 
> ...


Sorry if i gave you the impression of take it or leave it. I am actually very keen on customer service and the expierence. I just do not enjoy some of the quote or uneducated statements alot of forum guests make. I am a put up or shut type of guy and either you (not meaning YOU) have something educated to say or wait untill you are hammered and say it then, at least you have an excuse  if you read alot of the customer comments from other forums who have bought our watches, you will see that i personnally thank them. I spend about 3 hours a week only to that. We also include often in mailings a gift certificate around christmas time to give to friends and family... both marketing and customer service is addressed. We also offer all watch purchases to be pickup up in the factory in Fuchsstadt where the watch will be assembled and fitted in front of the customer eyes... I am sure these things do not get told often forums but to respond to your comment of German attention, I do not see any other of the brands you listed doing this.. just a thought. could be wrong. On top one of the brands you listed has filed chapter 11 and left millionen from customers hanging. On top this brand is owned by the large group everyone knows in switzerland (i do not mention names on purpose) it is only a ploy to dump costs and raise profit and restart fresh. A bit dubious or? Well i will keep everyone informed on the movements as soon as i have info and pictures .

we do plan on making the decorations our own.. They will be fantastic for the price and individule!

Take care and keep posting

james


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## tribe125 (Mar 7, 2006)

Slinging mud at another company (we all know which one it is) doesn't do you any favours either.

And the majority of forum members are not 'uneducated' or ill-informed, and have access to reliable information on the provenance of watch movements.


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2007)

> We also offer all watch purchases to be pickup up in the factory in Fuchsstadt where the watch will be assembled and fitted in front of the customer eyes... I am sure these things do not get told often forums but to respond to your comment of German attention, I do not see any other of the brands you listed doing this.. just a thought. could be wrong.


Well, some thoughts right out of my "cache":

Stowa: T-shirts and other gimmicks as a give away
Schauer/Stowa: Open Days in 2003 and 2004 (2004 with a small trade fair) everyone is welcome to pick up his watch at Engelsbrand as some of our frequent postes have done and reported. The Open Schauer days have been reported here and on PMWF as well as on equation of time.
Nomos: offers guided tours (hotnerd an me had the pleasure to be hosted for a whole day at Nomos, read my report "A visit to Nomos" here on WUS) and tours on special request, gift: the NOMOS book.
Glashütte Original: a lot of merchandizing stuff as give away (pens, caps, loupes, DVD, CD, booklets), guided tours as well, pickup of watches on special request
A. Lange & Söhne: guided tours (exquisit), give aways: DVD, CD
Chronoswiss: guided tour on demand
Guinand: Everybody is welcome to visit Guinand, afaik hotnerd visited old Mr. Sinn, the celebration of 
Sinn: if I remember right there was a WUS-WIS come together hosted by Mr. Schmidt. If interested in the whole story please check the Sinn forum here on WUS.


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## Crusader (Apr 30, 2005)

stuffler said:


> Sinn: if I remember right there was a WUS-WIS come together hosted by Mr. Schmidt. If interested in the whole story please check the Sinn forum here on WUS.


Exactly. Sinn very graciously hosted a Watchuseek tour of their facility and discussed their projects with the members that left all participants much impressed: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=51359


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## Riedenschild (Dec 18, 2006)

Great stuff ! Good to hear. As i mentioned i am not a expert in this area, I have only time to invest in my own brand and those events offered are good to hear. We need to do a bit more. Ideas or requests would be great, would love to give a short tour as we are not as big as the others mentioned but we love what we do. 

edited by moderator: please keep it a friendly place and re-read our rules and guidelines.I know nobody being ill informed and uneducated.
Thank you.

Enjoy


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

_"I am actually very keen on customer service and the expierence."_
Thanks for stating that first hand James 

_"I am sure these things do not get told often forums"_
You are right, and that's why your posting on forum will increase awareness. However, you should be able to handle both the positive with the negative. The forum is for people who appreciate watches and express their opinion.

_"I do not see any other of the brands you listed doing this"_
If you were to search under my login or Mike's login you will notice that I either visited all the watch manufacturies mentioned or had an excellent one-on-one conversation at the Basel fair.

I had the pleasure to visit Stowa, Nomos, Glashutte Original, Lange, and Guinand manufacturies. It only convinced me even more that German watch manufacturers make watches a very personal experience for me.
It's not just the gift they offer. It is care and passion about watch making and personlizing watches as a customer wants. They do not bad mouth anyone or sell a watch but let you interact with the watch makers and learn more about them.

_"On top one of the brands you listed has filed chapter 11 and left millionen from customers hanging"_
I am not aware of any brands that I mentioned in my post had filed Chapter 11 and left millions of customers hanging. Please backup your facts. You just stated that people on various forum speak poorly of your company and post uneducated statements. You are doing just that by making such claims without presenting them with actual facts.

_"On top this brand is owned by the large group everyone knows in switzerland (i do not mention names on purpose) it is only a ploy to dump costs and raise profit and restart fresh."_
Glashutte Original and Lange are both owned by larger parent companies. But again, after visiting the manufacturies, I know first hand the quality and the customer experience is very personal. The ploy of the big company is the furtherest from the truth. When you interact with the master watchmakers and designers, it is not the arm of the big company that is looming over your head. These people are dedicated and passionate about making watches and it rubs off on you.

_"Well i will keep everyone informed on the movements as soon as i have info and pictures ."_
I look forward to the Gematic movements information.

Regards,

Bhanu


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

Interesting... 


> Next to the Thiel Company, firms like Glashütte, A. Lange & Söhne saw the light of the day. They were all founded by people that had once worked for or with the Thiel brothers. All in all some 60 to 70 firms were founded in the region by former Thiel employees or former partners.


 umm... I don't want to be pedantic, but Glashutte is in Saxony, not Thuringia. it's nowhere near Ruhla.



> Ruhla became a very big centre of excellence in precision mechanics and above all watches. In the 1930s it was probably the world's biggest watch manufacturing town. Above all of them towered the Ruhla-Werke, the company founded by the Thiel brothers.


Nevertheless, their stock in trade was the low-tech yet bullet-proof pin-lever 'Fearless' model. Thiel Bros. were never a high- or even mid-grade brand.



> In 1963 the Ruhla-Werke launched their famous calibre 24. It was a hand-winder in the best tradition of watch making. It was based on the the technology the Thiel brothers had licenced from their Swiss suppliers.


 Can somebody else verify this please? OK, maybe I'm ignorant, but I always presumed that because the 24 appeared to share a common architecture with those older pin-lever calibres it replaced that it was therefore an in-house Ruhla design with no Swiss content.

Come to think of it, why would UMF-Ruhla require 'Swiss suppliers', given that they were a machine-tool design and manufacturing enterprise as well as a watchmaker?



> The manufacturing of the movement was from the start highly automated. Back then we in Switzerland were still toying with adding more manpower to our factories and robots were close to unknown of here. The strange thing is that robotics was spawned by Ruhla-Werke in the early 1960s with the advent of the calibre 24.


True, and genuinely a credit to UMF-Ruhla. When Seiko achieved the same level of automation a decade later (but with far better QC), their ads proclaimed 'One day all watches will be made like this'. Hand-made is not always better. And yet part of the appeal of so many new niche models on the market seems to be 'hand-made in Germany'.



> The VEB Ruhla-Werke launched the first series of these radio controlled watches by the mid-1960s. Today only a few manufacturers still make these watches. Most of them in Germany. Junghans and Gardé coming to mind at that.


Mid-80s actually, by VEB-Ruhla subsidiary Eurochron, subsequently purchased by Junghans. Garde is substantially the core of the old Ruhla enterprise. None of this however relates to the business of making mechanical timekeepers.



> The *GEMatic* is a direct descendant of the Calibre 24' automatic version and thus a descendant of the movement that later evolved into ETA's 2824 and 2892 ranges.


 ... sorry, I think my brain just exploded.

The ETA 28xx calibres were derived from the Ruhla 24 ?! Are you insane? Have you even looked at these two calibres alongside one another? The 24 has no jewels, a pin-lever escapement, indirect seconds and a pillar-and-plate construction.

And there was never an automatic version. There was a date version, a moon-phase, an alarm, a chronograph, a jump-hour, a non-jumping direct reader, and one with a cute cartoon character on the dial whose eyes waggled in time with the escapement. It even served as the basis for the quartz calibre 28! But there was no auto version.



> The Gematic mechanical really is a gorgous movement with a long history.


Albeit a fairly cloudy history.

I think further clarification will be required by somebody other than James Elsener owner of Edouard Lauzieres 'the most knowledgable person I know of in the swiss watch industry'. Perhaps somebody who is more familiar with German watchmaking?


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2007)

Chascomm said:


> Can somebody else verify this please? OK, maybe I'm ignorant, but I always presumed that because the 24 appeared to share a common architecture with those older pin-lever calibres it replaced that it was therefore an in-house Ruhla design with no Swiss content.


Hi Chascomm,

Here's what some WIS found out:

Ruhla cal 24 ? Maybe the UMF 24 was meant ?










You all probably know about this one: At the peak of the watch production in tzhe German Democratic Republik 25.000 calibres were produced a day, fully automated production as can be seen here:

http://www.christophlorenz.de/watch/movements/umf_24.php?l=en

Ranfft is another scource: http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&&2uswk&UMF_24_30

If I interpreted all sources right the cal. 24 was a movement with 0 jewels, no jewels whatsoever, and can be best compared to a comparable Timex movement.
The last two versions of the cal. 24 - according to Ranfft - had two jewels.

Couldn't find any "traces" of an automatic movement so far, but maybe somebody in our large WUS-community knows if there has been a module to pimp the cal. 24 to become an automatic movement ?


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

stuffler said:


> Hi Chascomm,
> 
> Here's what some WIS found out:
> 
> ...


Ruhla 24 or UMF 24 is the same calibre, and I am quite familiar with it. I have a Saxon (24-32) dress watch, a Digi 73 jump-hour and several non-functioning Sumatic alarms. My sister-in-law wears a 'Max & Morits' with the waggling eyes. A friend of mine has a couple of Saxons, a Stopp-Meister chrono and a Midimatic alarm.

Those links you provided say everything necessary about this particular calibre (for which I have a strange affection). It is very low-grade and could not possibly be refined sufficiently for the modern market.

I suspect 'Ruhla calibre 24' is simply a Trojan horse by which another Germasian watch enters the market.


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## Bhanu Chopra (Apr 1, 2006)

chascomm you are 100% correct!

It was amusing at first how some watch companies reached pretty deep to create a history. 

But now they are just flat out lying and assuming that consumers couldn't tell a difference between modified Chinese movement and a vintage German movement.

It will be interesting to see what's behind Riedenschild's Gematic movement????

Cheers


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2007)

I got an invitation and will find out ;-) Need to check my schedule. Maybe I can arrange something when driving to Italy or back to Berlin in September.


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## XTrooper (Feb 8, 2006)

Hope you can manage it, Mike. I'd be very interested in reading the report of your visit. |>


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## dalstott (Feb 13, 2006)

Parts of the discussion remind me of an old saying.

If you can not stun them with brilliance
then baffle them with Bull...t

Here is a solution to the extra hour hand at 6 on some ST19 watches. Remove the regular hour hand and you have created a regulator dial chronograph like the Buran.


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## Unlcky Alf (Aug 19, 2007)

LACYJEN1999 said:


> Is this brand considered a german watch brand. I saw some of their models posted on RLT's website. I thought the chronograph models looked pretty good. But I nevered heard of the brand or the movement they use. Can any one provide any information regarding this brand and the movement they use..


IMO they make some nice, affordable watches, however their resale does not appear to be good. I own a Dark sea diver which I've been trying to sell for some time now, I want to upgrade to the pro-edition but can't justify owning two such similar watches.

I've barely worn the DSD, it will be sold with all the papers and packaging and I've now had to drop the price to such a level that, by the time I've paid postage, I'm going to lose well over half my money, and that's assuming that someone buys it without further reductions. I certainly didn't buy it as an investment piece:-d but to lose that amount on an "as new" watch in under 6 months is a bit too much IMO. I've never had any other watch depreciate anything like as much in that timescale. It's a shame as they are really good quality and well worth the money, but if circumstances change and you need to part with it :-(

BTW this isn't a plug for my sales ad, it's not on WUS.


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## cornflakes (Feb 21, 2006)

They have way too much unnecessary text on the dials for my taste. It doesn't help that it doesn't always make sense ("mechanic chronograph"). Why does it need to say "Hand Assembled in Germany" on the dial? If you feel you need to say that ON the watch, put it on the case back.


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## Chascomm (Feb 13, 2006)

hotnerd said:


> chascomm you are 100% correct!
> 
> It was amusing at first how some watch companies reached pretty deep to create a history.
> 
> ...


There has been more discussion of the latest Riedenschilds on other forums. Attempts at clarification appear to have added to the confusion. I'm hoping Mike's visit will sort out the issues to the satisfaction of German watch enthusiasts.

I thought it was very interesting that I was the first one to comment on the true origins of the Ruhla 24. Although this was Germany's most numerous calibre ever (possibly the world's most numerous?), it doesn't register on the radar of the average German watch enthusiast because it is simply too low-grade. There isn't even much out there on the web. I suspect this is why the spin-doctor cited it; because it was too obscure to be recognized, yet successful enough to have credibility.

Notice too how Edouard Lauzieres spuriously claimed this successful design had some 'Swiss' heritage? Thus it has double credibility of being 'Swiss' and 'German'. This preoccupation with country of origin as a mark of quality is why any undoubtedly Asian movement used by Riedenschild/Thunderbird is claimed to be 'Japanese', because it sounds better than 'Chinese'. The latest I read on another forum was that the 'Germatic' chronograph movement was actually not the Sea-Gull ST19, but a _Japanese_ version of the Venus 175! (this was after a forumer had posted some quotes of mine about the link between the ST19 and 175) Why a Japanese company in the 21st century would want to reverse-engineer the 175 is a mystery to me.

Either way, the Germatic was supposed to be an automatic of German design, not a hand-winder of Swiss design. It sounds like 'rolling justification' to me. I wish they would just say 'quality Chinese movements checked, serviced and cased-up by hand in Germany' and take pride in that.


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## Onkel C (Jun 18, 2006)

Chascomm said:


> Either way, the *Germatic* was supposed to be an automatic of German design, not a hand-winder of Swiss design. It sounds like 'rolling justification' to me. I wish they would just say 'quality Chinese movements checked, serviced and cased-up by hand in Germany' and take pride in that.


Actually, the movement is called "Gematic" (without the "r"), which adds further to the assumption that the "reputation" of Riedenschild is mostly built around toying around with the "Made in Germany" attribute. Since the term "Made in Germany" isn't protected at all, I would not put too much emphasis or even value on it. Personally, I don't know what to make out of people who choose a watch only because of the (claimed) country of origin.

Greetings from Bonn,

Christian


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2008)

*Update*



Riedenschild said:


> Hi...... GeMatic also has it's own movement that is according with the statement from James elsner with the history of Eichmüller. This movement will be 100% German made and also decorated from Thomas Ninchritz... This is a watchmaker in nürnberg that has been decorating movements in third generation.....


Due to a similar post on TZ I mailed Thomas Ninchritz twice.
He phoned me this morning (20 march, 2008) and I asked him what his contribution to Riedenschild watches in general or the Gematic movement in particular is or was and he told me that he had *modified 20 movements* for Riedenschild after they met at the HK watch fair. 
To know: He constructed another bridge for a chinese movement so that it'll look (a bit) different to the original.

Beside that work there has been no further cooperation in watchmaking. Ninchritz watches have been exhibited on the Inhorgenta 2008 together with Riedenschild, Laco and other brands at the same booth runned by Riedenschild (kinda synergetic effect to keep the costs low).

According to Mr. Ninchritz that' s it.


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Update*

It sounds like not much is being done with this Gematic movement. I was looking at a sales site and they are calling most of their movements Gematic, but most are just ETA/Chinese/Japanese movements with a different rotor. If this was a true manufactured movement, then these watches wouldn't be that cheap.

Plus their Gematic site still says nothing about their movements. If you click on the link below, you'll just see a pic of a faded movement. That hasn't changed since it was put up.
http://www.gematic.com/gematic/

I came upon a watch brand out of Hong Kong called Perpetual and they are also using a 30 jeweled Seagull ST19. In my mind, the Gematic chronograph movement is a base Seagull movement with extra jewels which are showing up in different watches and they all have the same decoration.

I think Riedenschild just needs to be more upfront.


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## brainless (Jan 3, 2008)

Would it be possible, that "Gematic" is only an acronym, created by an marketeer who wanted to tell us: "Sold as *Ge*r*m*an, but made in *A*sian *tic*-tac companies."<|:rodekaart

brainless


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## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2008)

LACYJEN1999 said:


> Is this brand considered a german watch brand. I saw some of their models posted on RLT's website. I thought the chronograph models looked pretty good. But I nevered heard of the brand or the movement they use. Can any one provide any information regarding this brand and the movement they use..


I think this gives an idea as to thier components:

Mechanischer Chronograph 
Handaufzug GEMATIC
ETA 2824-2 Swiss Made
Stoppfunktion
Gehäuse: Edelstahl 316L
Gehäuse, Indizes und Zeiger 18 Karat Rosegold
Durchmesser 40mm
20 mm Bandanstoß
Verschraubter Boden
Glas: Saphir Glas
Zifferblatt: in schwarz (matt)
Band: Echtes Lederband mit Lousiana Kroko-Prägung in schwarz - Doppelnaht*
Wassergeschützt (5 bar Prüfdruck nach DIN-Norm 8310)

Biansi


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

First of all: Welcome to the German Watches Forum and welcome to Watchuseek as well.

Second: 

Your quote is more than irritating:

A "Mechanischer Chronograph Handaufzug GEMATIC" (which means mechanical chronograph handwinding GEMATIC) can´t be an "ETA 2824-2" because the ETA 2824-2 is an automatic movement. It can´t be a chrono movement either because it needs a module to become a chrono. A Dubois-Depraz module would do it.
The watch pic you have added is neither fitted with an ETA 2824-2 nore with a german movement. It is a chinese Seagull ST 19.

You may read the complete thread to find out that GEMATIC does not mean anything.;-)


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## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2008)

I had no idea this thread had so many postings. I simply cut and pasted the German description at www.time-line24.de of the pictured watch. I know no German and so simply noted the ETA movement and ?alligator strap. Obviously, if hand wound, this cannot be an ETA 2824-2. Sorry to have so irritated you. The above site though had what I thought was a very cheap Aristo doctor's watch at about 50 euros. I bought one as the other handful of sites selling this watch are doing so for approx. £200 (e.g. chronomaster.co.uk). I believe the Aristo has a 2824-2 ETA movement. I am happy to be corrected though.


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## [email protected] (Mar 28, 2008)

BTW this is from the RLT website and they would not get away with selling a manual wind watch as an automatic! So who is right as I am none the wiser:

*Riedenschild - Black Pearl - 1114-01-S14R*

Movement: Automatic calibre Swiss ETA 2824-2 (25 Jewels) with Date
Casing: 18K Rose Gold plated on 316L Steel, Diameter: 40mm
Screw down back case
Glass: Sapphire Glass
Dial: Black.
Rose gold plated on steel bracelet.
Water Resistant (5 bar pressure proofed DIN-Norm 8310)
24 Month International Manufacturer's Warranty
Certificate of authenticity/ origination and instruction manual.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

I have no doubts that the Riedenschild - Black Pearl - 1114-01-S14R is fitted with an ETA 2824-2, but the Black Pearl Chrono Gematic movement with 30 jewels is of chinese origin.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2008)

On This Forum Not Be Respected


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2008)

Appeal to Commodoredste:

I had to edit your post because you merged two different posts (my post with the pic and a Riendenschild post of Mr. Newell) into one quote which isn't correct and misleading for our visitors and members.

So my urgent appeal: If you copy and paste posts or parts of posts (which is no problem at all) please try to quote correctly by setting each quote into [ quote ].....[ /quote ]. Thank you.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2008)

*Gematic 0388 launched*










Similar movement has been seen in fake IWC watches sold on the bay (the original and its copy signed IWC)


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Gematic 0388 launched*

I noticed on the Gematic website that they have more movements listed. Some look to be of Swiss origins and others of Asian origins.

http://www.gematic.com/gematic/


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Gematic 0388 launched*



thodgins said:


> I noticed on the Gematic website that they have more movements listed. Some look to be of Swiss origins and others of Asian origins.
> 
> http://www.gematic.com/gematic/


Are you reffering to the 0888 ? If "swiss made" wouldn't the movement say so ? With 26 jewels it looks quite similar to this one (which isn't swiss however the engraving does say so):


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## thodgins (Feb 11, 2006)

*Re: Gematic 0388 launched*

Very true I hadn't looked closely. So most likely they are all of Chinese origin.


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## chaadster (Oct 13, 2008)

All,

Any update on the Gematic 0888? Do Riedenschild decorate, balance rotors, or in any way improve these most likely Chinese ETA 2824 copies that would make them more proprietary, reliable, or accurate (and ergo, valuable)?

Or am I vainly hopeful there's more to the Gematic story!

Stuffler, did you make a Riedenschild visit yet?


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2009)

chaadster said:


> Stuffler, did you make a Riedenschild visit yet?


It should be Mike ! And no, I think travelling from London to Riedenschild isn't worth the money. A lot of their movements are now signed Gematic and I don't know what they do with the movements (if they do).


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## chaadster (Oct 13, 2008)

Mike,

Too bad, but you're probably right. There would surely be less obfuscation and more celebration were Gematic making something special.


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