# FP Journe: The Brand, the best FP Journe, comparison to other high end (PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breg)



## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

Guys,
I have not see many threads about FP Journe watches and the more I research into this brand the more i fall in love with it. I am by no means an expert in watches but I am a big fan and have been collecting them for a little while. I currently wear the likes of PP, AP, JLC, IWC, Rolex and I have been researching what is next and FP Journe seems to be the way to go.

I am starting this thread to answer the following questions.

1. What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand and Francois-Paul Journe himself
2. For those already in love with the brand. What is in your opinion the "best" Journe out there?
3. How would you rank this brand against other high end brands (PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet, others)?

Highlights:
FP Journe has won 7 GPHG (3 Aiguille D'Or, 2 men's watch, 1 special jury prize, and 1 complicated watch prize). Not sure if this is true but he won so many times that it was because of him that they changed the rules and now the company/watchmaker that wins the Aiguille D'Or cannot participate the year after (he won 2004, 2006 and 2008).

Released the first wrist watch in 1991, in 1994 won the Gaia watchmaker of the year award, in 1999 the chronometres collection is released (he designed it 4 years earlier), in 1999 also presents the first tourbillon watch with "remontoir" (he created this in 1982), in 2000 releases the "sonnerie souverain", in 2000 he invents the first ever resonance wrist watch, in 2001 he introduced the first ever movement to ensure precision timekeeping for 5 days when not worn (Collection octa), this movement can also incorporate many different complications into the same "shell", all octa collection watch are exactly the same size and thickness (no matter the complication, amazing!), 2002-2012 wins many awards see above, in 2008 introduces the ultra thin minute repeater, in 2012 he launches the chronometre optimum which he calls the "masterpiece" and houses his manufacture movement and all the technologies that he has developed (parallel arrangement of double barrel with two springs, the constant remotoire device (patented), the EBHP high performance bi-axial escapement housing two wheels and working without lubricant and what else do you want? come on!

His famous "Invenit e Fecit" really is the perfect wording for what him and his company are about. This means that ALL FP Journe watches are invented and made in house. The dial, the hands, the crown, the case, the strap, the balance, the date, the movement, everything. You will see this very clearly on all his watches. If you look closely if you look an FP Journe from the side you will see that the crown will ALWAYS be dead center because aesthetically this is what looks best. Other high end brands have created great movements but "pile on" different layers onto the movement for different complications, in these cases the crown would be off-center if you look at the watch from the side.

For more info go to:

Montres Journe SA - Invenit et Fecit - Watches - Geneva, Switzerland and
In-Depth: The FP Journe Chronométre Optimum Explained (VIDEO)

sorry for the long post but i want to get a really good discussion going. Please on your posts first, answer the 3 questions above.

thank you and enjoy this picture.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

I like your discussion and do not have any real insight into the issues you raised other than I have been intrigued by the FP line. However, I sometimes start to think that some of these models are more novelty and after time i wonder if i would get tired of them.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

*FP Journe: The Brand, the best FP Journe, comparison to other high end (PP, A...*

1. What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand and Francois-Paul Journe himself

I can't tell for the man, but clearly the brand only generates respect and genuine interest among all high end lovers around me... And that's very rare for young brands.

2. For those already in love with the brand. What is in your opinion the "best" Journe out there?

'best' is not that precise  still, the chronometre bleu appears to me as the most appealing design, one of its simplest movement (and simplicity is one of the main reason I love FPJ), and the best candidate to become a 'classic' in the future. I imagine this is subjective though.

3. How would you rank this brand against other high end brands (PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet, others)?

To me FPJ surely is up there with the other high end brands you just quoted. The difference is that it does not come with a 100 year + legacy like VC for instance, so in terms of pure 'investment' FPJ can be perceived as a bit more risky... Still, in terms of pure watchmaking I don't see why FPJ would be ashamed of anything in their process compared to the PP and ALS of this world.

That said, ranking all of those brands (and FPJ in there) seem a bit useless and unfair in my mind, they are a group of respected high end brands, with different strength and weaknesses...


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

*I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

_*1. What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand and Francois-Paul Journe himself?*_

A newer micro-brand, quite exclusive, well marketed with a well controlled boutique driven distribution channel. FPJ himself is a stellar watchmaker but a boer of an individual who is legendary to watch industry insiders as to conducting himself in a manner considered by most to be totally unacceptable from a business standpoint and non-customer focused (I am putting this nicely).

_*2. For those already in love with the brand. What is in your opinion the "best" Journe out there?*_

I prefer their simpler pieces such as Chronometre Souverain or Chronometre Bleu.

_*3. How would you rank this brand against other high end brands (PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet, others)?*_

As a brand, as others have said, it is personality focused and tied to an individual. Its longevity is uncertain unless it is purchased by a large conglomerate in my opinion (which I think is a likely end game). FPJ is positioned very much how Franck Muller was 15-20 years ago or how Richard Mille is today. All the other brands and companies that you mention have capitalization, stability and history.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Wow, great post.


What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand and Francois-Paul Journe himself

FPJ, as a watch brand, is an iconoclast in almost all aspects. Fracious-Paul only designs and manufactures watches that meet his incredibly-high expectations and which, he thinks, will past the test of time. The fact they sell is actually lower on the priority list. As I said in another post, Francois-Paul is a genius - and like most geniuses he is single-minded, quirky and completely dedicated to his mechanical creations and his company.


For those already in love with the brand. What is in your opinion the "best" Journe out there?

My personal favorite, from an aesthetic point of view, is the Chronometre Bleu. The dial is incredible and I have a thing for Tantalum. It's a watch I wear very often. 
My second favorite is the Centigraphe Souverain as it's just a very cool complication.
Next in line is the Tourbillon Remontoir d'Egalite which I believe is one of the most beautiful Tourbillons I have ever seen.
Rounding out the top four would be the Chronomètre Souverain Ti with the ruthenium dial, a special edition watch made for the opening of the Japan boutique in Tokyo.


How would you rank this brand against other high end brands (PP, ALS, AP, VC, Breguet, others)?

I am not a big fan of "brand ranking" but, for me, FP Journe is at the top of my watch collection. I love everything about this brand, its history, and creator/founding. It's the one watch I collect and never sell. Some would argue Patek is the only true investment watch but, for me, FP Journe fits that bill.


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## seanwontreturn (Aug 9, 2013)

i think the premise of owning likes of pp als is overlooked here. What OP in fact want to know, is if FP Journe is a good addition to his collection.

Of course it is, Jaquet D, Parmigiani F, Franck M are too famous for a collector like op that wants a real niche.

In the end, literal answer to op, i dont know FP J at all, but if someone invests on a new factory and hire some true masters, the works can be as good as PP ALS.

Sean


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> Wow, great post.
> 
> 
> What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand and Francois-Paul Journe himself
> ...


westlake I thought you were going to be the first one to reply! Thanks for your feedback and again you have one of the best FP Journe collections i have ever seen.

Everyone keeps ranking the Chronometre Bleu in first place. I will have to check it out this weekend when I am at the Boutique. Hopefully they will have one.

If i see any other cool limited pieces i will try to take pictures if they let me!


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> westlake I thought you were going to be the first one to reply! Thanks for your feedback and again you have one of the best FP Journe collections i have ever seen.
> 
> Everyone keeps ranking the Chronometre Bleu in first place. I will have to check it out this weekend when I am at the Boutique. Hopefully they will have one.
> 
> If i see any other cool limited pieces i will try to take pictures if they let me!


Check out the Centigraphe in Rose Gold - I am negotiating to trade my Platinum for that watch. Boutique only and I think just stunning. Hopefully they have a Tourbillon to show, its a pretty cool watch for sure. Also the FPJ perpetual calendar is a great looking watch as well. The FPJ SportLine watches are very cool given what when into making a functional watch out of aluminium alloy. Not sure I particularly like the styling, but you cant believe how light they are! Have fun and do try and post some pictures if possible.


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## metallic (Jan 8, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Love the watches. Love the platinum CS. I am really afraid of dropping big money on a small independent watchmaker though.


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## Mr.Sam Patek (Feb 24, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



metallic said:


> Love the watches. Love the platinum CS. I am really afraid of dropping big money on a small independent watchmaker though.


The CS in Red Gold is also very cool.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

This one is quite cool. I like it



Mr.Sam Patek said:


> The CS in Red Gold is also very cool.


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## ilikebigbutts (Feb 27, 2013)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

They don't appeal to me visually. That's the end of it for me, I am afraid. Same with Franck Muller.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



ilikebigbutts said:


> They don't appeal to me visually. That's the end of it for me, I am afraid. Same with Franck Muller.


Yeah, but at the same time, you like big butts, so you know...


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## mchent (Dec 19, 2011)

I really like FP Journe watches and everything I've heard about them is they are fantastic. I think the design has influenced a lot of other watch brands. Personally, I like the Octa Reserve de Marche. It's the classic FP Journe watch IMO. The great thing with the offset dial is you don't need to show the entire watch from under your shirt sleeve to read the time, assuming you wear it on your left wrist. 

The only thing that concerns me with boutique brands like FP Journe, Urwerk, Hautlence, etc is they are so founder driven and have such specialized manufacturer movements in most cases, that once the namesake passes, I wonder what will happen to the company and for me future service becomes a concern. For those reasons I seem to still stick to AP, Rolex or the higher-end brands owned by Richemont, Swatch Group, or LVMH,... at least for now. 

-Troy


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Galactic Sushiman said:


> Yeah, but at the same time, you like big butts, so you know...


you may be onto something there.

FPJ also doesn't appeal to me visually.


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

I was very hot to get a FPJ watch and had my eye on a Centigraphe in platinum. I was invited to a FPJ watch GTG in Toronto and a good friend of mine was scheduled to do a private interview with him at a hotel lobby. I accompanied my friend at his request and sat at another table quietly about 20 feet away while they conducted the interview. At the end of the interview my friend told Mr. Journe that his friend was a huge watch fan and was looking at purchasing one of his watches and would love to meet him and say hello. Francois-Paul said no, would not say hello or shake my hand but instead went outside to have a smoke. I have decided I don't really need an FP Journe watch.


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## Mr.Sam Patek (Feb 24, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Donut said:


> I was very hot to get a FPJ watch and had my eye on a Centigraphe in platinum. I was invited to a FPJ watch GTG in Toronto and a good friend of mine was scheduled to do a private interview with him at a hotel lobby. I accompanied my friend at his request and sat at another table quietly about 20 feet away while they conducted the interview. At the end of the interview my friend told Mr. Journe that his friend was a huge watch fan and was looking at purchasing one of his watches and would love to meet him and say hello. Francois-Paul said no, would not say hello or shake my hand but instead went outside to have a smoke. I have decided I don't really need an FP Journe watch.


I have a Rosegold CS and it is a spectacular watch. However I never have an allusion that FP Journe was other than an arrogant European artist. Why would you expect otherwise? Beautiful watches though!


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## metallic (Jan 8, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Donut said:


> I was very hot to get a FPJ watch and had my eye on a Centigraphe in platinum. I was invited to a FPJ watch GTG in Toronto and a good friend of mine was scheduled to do a private interview with him at a hotel lobby. I accompanied my friend at his request and sat at another table quietly about 20 feet away while they conducted the interview. At the end of the interview my friend told Mr. Journe that his friend was a huge watch fan and was looking at purchasing one of his watches and would love to meet him and say hello. Francois-Paul said no, would not say hello or shake my hand but instead went outside to have a smoke. I have decided I don't really need an FP Journe watch.


Interesting story. Confirms what I have heard from others. My biggest concern with FPJ was future servicing concerns. His attitude however would most likely carry over to the way he runs his company. I can't imagine the difficulties if I had a problem with the watch. My interest in FPJ is rapidly waning.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



metallic said:


> Interesting story. Confirms what I have heard from others. My biggest concern with FPJ was future servicing concerns. His attitude however would most likely carry over to the way he runs his company. I can't imagine the difficulties if I had a problem with the watch. My interest in FPJ is rapidly waning.


So how many executives from high-end watch manufacturers have you met and liked? Have you spent much time at the Basel Watch Fair conversing with these guys? I have and they are, as a whole, extremely brand-myopic, insular and rather boorish. They rarely engage with those outside a very small and elite circle. Some, such as Mr. Journe, border on genuis when it comes to watch design and mechanics. They are clearly very smart and effective at running these conpanies with great success, but If any of them actually had to sell watches to the average customer, their respective brands might suffer mightedly.


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## aardvarkbark (Oct 27, 2010)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> So how many executives from high-end watch manufacturers have you met and liked? Have you spent much time at the Basel Watch Fair conversing with these guys? I have and they are, as a whole, extremely brand-myopic, insular and rather boorish.


Maybe their boorishness was a reflection of present company? I have spent evenings with Stephen Urquhart and Nick Hayek Jr at charity events and found these gentlemen to be personable and outgoing and they each exhibited what I thought was a willingness to discuss the watch industry with a broad view, and even topics completely unrelated with watch manufacturing and distribution, so not at all 'brand-myopic.' I've heard similar assessments of Nick and Giles English of Bremont.

I agree with Metallic's assessment that one's general attitude toward people affects the culture of the workplace, more so in a small boutique shop than in a larger enterprise where even if the CEO was aloof and insular, there would be middle managers to ensure a general positive attitude amongst the labor force.


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Donut said:


> I was very hot to get a FPJ watch and had my eye on a Centigraphe in platinum. I was invited to a FPJ watch GTG in Toronto and a good friend of mine was scheduled to do a private interview with him at a hotel lobby. I accompanied my friend at his request and sat at another table quietly about 20 feet away while they conducted the interview. At the end of the interview my friend told Mr. Journe that his friend was a huge watch fan and was looking at purchasing one of his watches and would love to meet him and say hello. Francois-Paul said no, would not say hello or shake my hand but instead went outside to have a smoke. I have decided I don't really need an FP Journe watch.


Hmmmm, I'm not naive with regard to our human frailties and faults but wish I hadn't read this. Thankfully only the CS really draws me in and I wouldn't pay for any of his other models (which we can subjectively all say about something). May not miss a CS acquisition . . . .


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

*I am sorry, but...*

Being a horological genius does not entitle one to be rude nor does it obviate one from behaving in what is generally considered an ethical manner in dealing with partner companies and clients. Civil behavior and ethical practice is a reasonable expectation for all individuals and businesses.


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## Mr.Sam Patek (Feb 24, 2012)

*Re: I am sorry, but...*



iim7v7im7 said:


> Being a horological genius does not entitle one to be rude nor does it obviate one from behaving in what is generally considered an ethical manner in dealing with partner companies and clients. Civil behavior and ethical practice is a reasonable expectation for all individuals and businesses.


You shouldn't assume someone is not ethical just because he is aloof. Given what he does for a living it should not be surprising JPJ is not a people person. Many artists are not. Further, in parts of Europe often people are not as comfortable with strangers as Americans may be inclined to be. Just walk the streets of Germany, France and Switzerland and say hello to everyone you meet.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



aardvarkbark said:


> Maybe their boorishness was a reflection of present company? I have spent evenings with Stephen Urquhart and Nick Hayek Jr at charity events and found these gentlemen to be personable and outgoing and they each exhibited what I thought was a willingness to discuss the watch industry with a broad view, and even topics completely unrelated with watch manufacturing and distribution, so not at all 'brand-myopic.' I've heard similar assessments of Nick and Giles English of Bremont.
> 
> I agree with Metallic's assessment that one's general attitude toward people affects the culture of the workplace, more so in a small boutique shop than in a larger enterprise where even if the CEO was aloof and insular, there would be middle managers to ensure a general positive attitude amongst the labor force.


So, to recap, you "heard through others" that Mr. Journe is a less desirable person and, based on that, a poor manager of his company and products (which you have never owned). On the other hand, spending time with Mr. Urquhart and Mr. Hayek at charity events, perhaps sponsored by Swatch, presumably having cocktails, nice food and in a party-like atmosphere, qualifies them as "good guys" and worthy managers of the Swatch empire? We all have our opinions, but my experience actually _running companies_ and, through my watch collecting, interfacing with some of these executives leads me to a very different opinion.


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## Omjlc (Dec 19, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> So how many executives from high-end watch manufacturers have you met and liked? Have you spent much time at the Basel Watch Fair conversing with these guys? I have and they are, as a whole, extremely brand-myopic, insular and rather boorish. They rarely engage with those outside a very small and elite circle. Some, such as Mr. Journe, border on genuis when it comes to watch design and mechanics. They are clearly very smart and effective at running these conpanies with great success, but If any of them actually had to sell watches to the average customer, their respective brands might suffer mightedly.


I think MBF might be the exception. I have met Max Busser who I think pulls the same horological punch as FPJ and he was one of the most decent humans beings I have ever met. I'm not in a position to acquire his watches yet but his attitude, friendliness and lack of aloofness left a really positive impression of his brand and even lead me to buy some artwork from his gallery.


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## iim7v7im7 (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: I am sorry, but...*

I am assuming nothing...I wasn't responding to any post in this thread but to first hand stories from industry insiders whom I have a relationship and trust.



Mr.Sam Patek said:


> You shouldn't assume someone is not ethical just because he is aloof. Given what he does for a living it should not be surprising JPJ is not a people person. Many artists are not. Further, in parts of Europe often people are not as comfortable with strangers as Americans may be inclined to be. Just walk the streets of Germany, France and Switzerland and say hello to everyone you meet.


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## Donut (Aug 27, 2007)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Mr.Sam Patek said:


> I have a Rosegold CS and it is a spectacular watch. However I never have an allusion that FP Journe was other than an arrogant European artist. Why would you expect otherwise? Beautiful watches though!


I only responded with my story because the OP had posed the question : _1. What do watch experts think about the FP Journe brand *and Francois-Paul Journe himself
*_
Now I don't actually claim to be a watch expert but I thought I would share my experience. _*Why would I expect otherwise ? *_Well, I guess simply put I don`t start out by thinking badly about someone I don`t know.

I have met Thierry Stern president of Patek Philippe, I was his guest in Switzerland and he was very cordial and most hospitable to me and several watch enthusiasts that I was travelling with.

I have had dinner with Jean-Frederic Dufour of Zenith watches and spent hours discussing watches and his company, he was extremely pleasant and friendly.

I had the opportunity to have lunch with Jean-Marc Jacot, CEO of Parmigiani Fleurier, again a very enjoyable afternoon. During my time with Jean-Marc I mentioned that I was having a watch built by Daniel Roth, the man not the company, and Jean-Marc explained to me that the watch would be perfect, he said the only thing Daniel was better at than building watches was being a man, that he was simply a great human being.

When I had the opportunity to fly to Geneva I e-mailed Daniel Roth and asked if his workshop was within driving distance of Geneva, could I rent a car and come to see his workshop. His reply was *NO,*I could not rent a car but that it would be his pleasure to drive to Geneva and pick me up and show me his workshop. He spent the whole day touring me around Switzerland and showing me everything Horological, he showed me his workshop, we shared a bottle of wine in his living room and he took me with his family for a wonderful lunch by the lake. It was a day I will never forget. This was before my near meeting with FP Journe and I asked him if he knew FP Journe and he replied that he did and that they talked on the phone almost daily.

Now please understand that I was not expecting anything like I what I received from these other men. I certainly wasn`t expecting this kind of hospitality from any of these men. However, I was literally 10 feet away from him and he refused to say hello to me or shake my hand when asked to. Instead he went outside and smoked a cigarette by himself. I`m sure it could have waited for 15-30 seconds to say hello and shake one man`s hand.

Of course this is just my opinion, and I`m sure FP Journe Inc is doing fine without my money.

Best,
Rob


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## metallic (Jan 8, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> So how many executives from high-end watch manufacturers have you met and liked? Have you spent much time at the Basel Watch Fair conversing with these guys? I have and they are, as a whole, extremely brand-myopic, insular and rather boorish. They rarely engage with those outside a very small and elite circle. Some, such as Mr. Journe, border on genuis when it comes to watch design and mechanics. They are clearly very smart and effective at running these conpanies with great success, but If any of them actually had to sell watches to the average customer, their respective brands might suffer mightedly.


I have not had the pleasure (or displeasure) of meeting many top watch executives. I also have not attended Basel or SIIH. I do have occasional conversations with fellow collectors. I also gather information from sources on the internet such as Rob (Donut) that I trust to be true. I have heard, albeit secondhand, from several trusted sources that Mr. Journe can be a very boorish individual. Having talent at an occupation does not grant a license to be an a$$. There is certainly no law against such behavior, but I will personally use all of the information I can obtain before spending $34,000 on a watch from a small boutique watch company with the owners name on it.

I own a fairly large company. I can assure you that the behavior and attitude that I display to prospective customers is a representation of how my company operates and treats its customers. My attitudes and behavior also trickle down and directly influence the behavior of my employees. Lead by example.

If F.P. Journe were simply the CEO of Swatch or Richemont, I might be able to overlook the behavior and still purchase the conglomerate's products. But Mr. Journe is the brand representative. His name is on the product. It is a small boutique product. Buying an FPJ watch means you are buying the man behind the watch as well as the attitudes and principles of his company.

I like the CS. I highly doubt I will purchase one. C'est la vie.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

This thread is very surprising, hate me for this post, I do not care.

Are you guys seriously that self centered that you think that the watch creators you respect should be (genuinely) interested in your person and take some of their personal time for you? Seriously?

If they show any interest for you and accept to share time and discussions it's because you are clients, and it has a name actually, it's called PR/customer service, and it's just a commercial ploy, nothing else.
They don't do it for you, they do it for the journalists around (the example 'I was with the CEO of Swatch _at a cocktail_ and he was not a jerk! Take that FPJ!' is very amusing...), and they also do it for you to come to influential places like WUS and spread the news 'I KNOW THE CEO OF XXX, AND HE IS A GREAT GUY, WE DISCUSSED WATCHES!'.

Seriously? A bunch of educated, powerful and rich people like you explaining how they will not buy a FPJ cause FPJ himself was not nice to them is the most childish thing I've ever seen on this forum where I lurk for years... We are not a bunch of teenagers talking about the new Justin Bieber album, but a group of adult talking about watches, let's try to act as such.

Mathieu - possibly committing a WUS High End forum suicide


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Galactic Sushiman said:


> A bunch of educated, powerful and rich people like you


maybe this is why.

I imagine that rich powerful people like these guys usually like to be treated like VIPs.


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## metallic (Jan 8, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Galactic Sushiman said:


> This thread is very surprising, hate me for this post, I do not care.
> 
> Are you guys seriously that self centered that you think that the watch creators you respect should be (genuinely) interested in your person and take some of their personal time for you? Seriously?
> 
> ...


I doubt anyone gets offended by your post. I certainly don't. There is nothing wrong with expressing an honest opinion.

You are missing the point though. Let me give you an analogy. Sometimes I attend art exhibitions. Often the artist is present at these type of exhibitions. Let's suppose I find a piece of art that I really love and I am strongly considering buying it. Then I am introduced to the artist. He is a total ass to me or my wife. Guess what, no sale. I hope your overpriced painting collects dust on that gallery wall for a decade.

Those art exhibitions are nothing short of events to maximize sales of the artist. In that type of scenario, the artist is likely to be very cordial to the attendees to maximize his sales. Lets suppose I am not at an art event, just randomly browsing a gallery. The artist in question just happens to be present. Someone attempts to introduce me to him and the same result happens, total a-hole. Again, same result, I am not buying that piece of art.

Watches from these tiny boutique producers are similar to little pieces of art. You are buying the artist as much as you are buying the piece. You are also taking on substantial risk vs. buying from an established house like PP or ALS. You have to get something in return for that risk. Unfortunately price appreciation is typically not one of those returns.

Then the argument is you are buying genius, so you have to accept a certain social ineptitude. Well, guess what, todays horological genius is tomorrows Frank Muller.

In the end, all of us get to decide when, where, and with whom we spend our hard earned money based on any criteria we choose.


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Galactic Sushiman said:


> This thread is very surprising, hate me for this post, I do not care.
> 
> Are you guys seriously that self centered that you think that the watch creators you respect should be (genuinely) interested in your person and take some of their personal time for you? Seriously?
> 
> ...


Great post

FPJ will continue to sell all 800 watches he makes a year till he passes-on. If a buyer or buyers choose not to buy his watches due to some snub they received or from an unflattering thread they read in a WUS forum, it won't have any effect on François-Paul, his company or product. And that's the point really - like him or hate him, it won't change what he does or how he does it, which (in his eyes) is making watches for this and future generations. He could sell 10x as many watches as he currently does, snubs notwithstanding, but that's not his plan. One (or more) fewer buyers will have no effect on anything.

And _Metallic's_ reference to artists and art collecting is an interesting one. Big collector there as well - Art Basel South Beach and Switzerland, Armory Show in New York, London Art fair, etc. - for many, many years. Years ago wife and I made an effort to meet the artists of works we bought. For some, an enriching experience, for others not so much. Did that stop us from picking up some great works from artists that we didn't like? No, not in the least and it didn't stop us from meeting some great people along the way we still call friends such as Chuck Close and Robert Rauschenberg (before his passing). I mean, in the end, who cares? I bought their watch or work of art - but Its not like these folks have to come to dinner every night!


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## incontrol (Sep 11, 2010)

I would find it amazing that someone would buy a "work of art" from an artist that treated them badly. It would make for interesting conversation: "Yes, I actually met this artist and he was very rude to me, so I bought this watch from him!" This would be embarrassing to me. Maybe if he was the only great artist making watches I may have to swallow my pride to buy one. Otherwise there are too many other choices!


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

incontrol said:


> I would find it amazing that someone would buy a "work of art" from an artist that treated them badly. It would make for interesting conversation: "Yes, I actually met this artist and he was very rude to me, so I bought this watch from him!" This would be embarrassing to me. Maybe if he was the only great artist making watches I may have to swallow my pride to buy one. Otherwise there are too many other choices!


The vast majority of collectible art is sold through auction or art galleries. Its rare, in the extreme, that an artist is selling direct to collectors. Even Damien Hirst sold through auction when he cut the galleries out. So "meeting an artist" is an arranged-affair typically through the gallery that negotiated and sold the piece to you.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

Interesting brand, it's a brand that I wouldn't hesitate to say that is haute horlogerie. A brand that focus more on quality than quantity. With pristine finishes, dials and case. With all that is so unfortunate that I don't like them enough to invest on one of them. I read those comments about the man not being as friendly, but I don't think that's the problem, I think the issue is that you have to like the watches enough. Because if someone do, that person will buy the watch regardless. Hey I listen to recordings of Herbert Von Karajan regardless of all the things said about him. Just listen to him conducting Strauss Metamorphosen and you quickly forget whatever said about him.


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## shnjb (May 12, 2009)

there are a lot of reasons why i wouldn't buy a watch from a company for.
it could be as trivial as salesperson at store X sucked.
it could be that the design has no appeal.
it could be that the brand is run by a former sex offender, great horologist or not.
it could be that the CEO is an ahole.

we all make the judgment call on some subjective criteria.


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

shnjb said:


> maybe this is why.
> 
> I imagine that rich powerful people like these guys usually like to be treated like VIPs.


And this is my point! Basically by giving value to a VIP treatment one does put the 'customer experience' above the product, which is, as stated just above, perfectly fine, but I am different. Probably because it's partly my job to create those experiences, to give the sentiment to belong to a club and to be 'special', I tend to base all my choices on the product, and only the product 



metallic said:


> I doubt anyone gets offended by your post. I certainly don't. There is nothing wrong with expressing an honest opinion.
> 
> You are missing the point though. Let me give you an analogy. Sometimes I attend art exhibitions. Often the artist is present at these type of exhibitions. Let's suppose I find a piece of art that I really love and I am strongly considering buying it. Then I am introduced to the artist. He is a total ass to me or my wife. Guess what, no sale. I hope your overpriced painting collects dust on that gallery wall for a decade.
> 
> ...


First I would like to thank you for the cordial response, I could learn from you in that field for sure 

That said, I am sorry, but the example does not convince me at all. I may not be as fortunate as some of you but I also have a few collections, one of them being experimental/electronic vinyls from the 80s/90s - yeah I know it's not as classy as art but still  - I had to chance to meet a lot of the early creators of the electronic genre, and as westlake said, some were fantastic (a little minority though) and the big majority was extremely boring and not really at ease with people. 
We have to respect that people express themselves in different way, and some people are only able to communicate interesting, rich and deep messages through their art, but at the same time are totally enable to do it in a discussion. The fact that FPJ prefers to talk to customer through his craft than in a discussion makes him even more respectable in my eyes. If anything, that story about him preferring to smoke a cigarette alone than to talk to one of his fan/customer makes him more authentic in my eyes - and makes his watches even more desirable 



westlake said:


> Great post
> 
> FPJ will continue to sell all 800 watches he makes a year till he passes-on. If a buyer or buyers choose not to buy his watches due to some snub they received or from an unflattering thread they read in a WUS forum, it won't have any effect on François-Paul, his company or product. And that's the point really - like him or hate him, it won't change what he does or how he does it, which (in his eyes) is making watches for this and future generations. He could sell 10x as many watches as he currently does, snubs notwithstanding, but that's not his plan. One (or more) fewer buyers will have no effect on anything.
> 
> And _Metallic's_ reference to artists and art collecting is an interesting one. Big collector there as well - Art Basel South Beach and Switzerland, Armory Show in New York, London Art fair, etc. - for many, many years. Years ago wife and I made an effort to meet the artists of works we bought. For some, an enriching experience, for others not so much. Did that stop us from picking up some great works from artists that we didn't like? No, not in the least and it didn't stop us from meeting some great people along the way we still call friends such as Chuck Close and Robert Rauschenberg (before his passing). I mean, in the end, who cares? I bought their watch or work of art - but Its not like these folks have to come to dinner every night!


Exactly my point, thx for putting it together more subtly 



shnjb said:


> there are a lot of reasons why i wouldn't buy a watch from a company for.
> it could be as trivial as salesperson at store X sucked.
> it could be that the design has no appeal.
> it could be that the brand is run by a former sex offender, great horologist or not.
> ...


And that's totally ok! It's just not the way I think


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## drhr (Mar 14, 2011)

shnjb said:


> there are a lot of reasons why i wouldn't buy a watch from a company for.
> it could be as trivial as salesperson at store X sucked.
> it could be that the design has no appeal.
> it could be that the brand is run by a former sex offender, great horologist or not.
> ...


I think so, too, with opinion on both sides, obviously. And this is really the gist of it, with no end in sight 'till there's only one person standing on this spinning orb. And even then, he/she will be judging, except that no one will be able to disagree/offer another opinion. Interesting and entertaining this thread, as with all of life in my experience . .


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> Check out the Centigraphe in Rose Gold - I am negotiating to trade my Platinum for that watch. Boutique only and I think just stunning. Hopefully they have a Tourbillon to show, its a pretty cool watch for sure. Also the FPJ perpetual calendar is a great looking watch as well. The FPJ SportLine watches are very cool given what when into making a functional watch out of aluminium alloy. Not sure I particularly like the styling, but you cant believe how light they are! Have fun and do try and post some pictures if possible.


As promised here are some pics of the watches that I am going to consider for my next purchase and a picture of the Tourbillon which I am NOT considering because I can't afford it . They are all rose gold as my next piece will be in rose gold for sure.

The Chronometre Souverain: 








The Octa Reserve de Marche:








The Centigraphe Souverain (Boutique Collection):








If I get the Centigraphe it would actually be one of these two versions with the strap shown above with the Octa Reserve de Marche (light tan):















I have found that all rose gold FPJ watches with that light tan strap look amazing:

which one do you vote for?

And finally here is the Tourbillon Souverain:


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> As promised here are some pics of the watches that I am going to consider for my next purchase and a picture of the Tourbillon which I am NOT considering because I can't afford it . They are all rose gold as my next piece will be in rose gold for sure.
> 
> The Chronometre Souverain:
> View attachment 1195192
> ...


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> which one do you vote for?


Of those The 40mm Octa Reserve de Marche, but for my money get a Lange 1st.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Which specific Lange is the one in the top photo.. with the second hand with arabic numerals?



heuerolexomega said:


> Of those The 40mm Octa Reserve de Marche, but for my money get a Lange 1st.
> 
> View attachment 1195258
> 
> View attachment 1195259


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



Donut said:


> I was very hot to get a FPJ watch and had my eye on a Centigraphe in platinum. I was invited to a FPJ watch GTG in Toronto and a good friend of mine was scheduled to do a private interview with him at a hotel lobby. I accompanied my friend at his request and sat at another table quietly about 20 feet away while they conducted the interview. At the end of the interview my friend told Mr. Journe that his friend was a huge watch fan and was looking at purchasing one of his watches and would love to meet him and say hello. Francois-Paul said no, would not say hello or shake my hand but instead went outside to have a smoke. I have decided I don't really need an FP Journe watch.


Oh please, give him a break. The guy was desperate for a cigarette and perhaps he does not like surprises. If you want to talk to him personally, ask in advance for a meeting or go to some marketing events he organizes (if any).

About FPJ behavior on doing business, I heard he made some enemies in Swiss watchmaking industry because he broke the traditional rule that the watchmakers should remain anonymous behind some big manufacture houses that cash in on their work. One cannot blame the guy for wanting more visibility, be independent and build his own brand.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



mark1958 said:


> Which specific Lange is the one in the top photo.. with the second hand with arabic numerals?


That's the Grand Lange 1 "Lumen". A beautiful piece.


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## metallic (Jan 8, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

I will say one last thing about this and then cease beating this horse.

F.P. Journe has done a remarkable job launching and branding a high end watch company. No small task considering that his customer base is an extremely discriminating, persnickety group of buyers.

He has achieved success by being the face of the company. He is also the horological talent and the spokesman of the company. If an individual wants to wear all of those hats, they better be reasonably competent in wearing those hats. It may be time for him to take a step back, relish in his role as founder, inventor and creator of the brand, and hire the appropriate public relations individuals to further market the brand. I would suspect that taking a step back and serving predominantly as the creative genius behind the brand would serve the company well. In the creative genius role, the aloofness and quirkiness of the artist is better understood. Leave the public relations to the smiling face people. Of course, F.P. Journe knows about a billion times more about the watch business than I do. I do know though that these luxury brand based companies can be fragile beasts.

Maybe someday I will purchase an F.P. Journe watch. With his smoking addiction, who knows how long he will be around.


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



mark1958 said:


> Which specific Lange is the one in the top photo.. with the second hand with arabic numerals?


Awesome pieces all!
When the time comes for the next purchase maybe we can start a new thread on which one to go with. An FPJ or a Lange. There are MANY benefits for each, but i will not get into this right now, many things can change in 12 months! 

I got exactly what I wanted from this thread great discussions, many different opinions and some different options. I have said this many times before. A great watch collection needs to have a PP, an AP, a VC, a Lange, a Breguet, a Rolex (Daytona or Vintage), and the rest will be dependent on what you like (FPJ, A&S, PD, MB&F, JLC, IWC, UN, RM, RD, FM, etc, etc). Some independent watch makers, some big companies with long history, but at the end from that pool I think its up to the owner. Really is all up to the owner but those 5 brands are a must in my mind.

Why I am thinking of going with FPJ before Lange, Breguet or VC? You got me, i just love those watches as you can see by my original post!

thanks all!


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



metallic said:


> I will say one last thing about this and then cease beating this horse.
> 
> F.P. Journe has done a remarkable job launching and branding a high end watch company. No small task considering that his customer base is an extremely discriminating, persnickety group of buyers.
> 
> ...


What you say make sense, but I don't think he wants the marketing avenue or care about the smiling face people. He doesn't need to, but I suspect that when he leaves this brand, it will probably end up with one of the conglemarates and they will do that. But then it wont be the FP Journe that we know today, so it might not be as desirable as it is today. And I guess that's part of the fear of investing in a brand like this. Maybe for the season collector that already has the Pateks or Langes that he wanted, is probably a no brainer to get this pieces. So I might someday be there.

Too many of these above: I Suspect, I guess, Maybe's etc.. I am just thinking loud :-d,


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## Orex (Jul 17, 2012)

incontrol said:


> I would find it amazing that someone would buy a "work of art" from an artist that treated them badly. It would make for interesting conversation: "Yes, I actually met this artist and he was very rude to me, so I bought this watch from him!" This would be embarrassing to me. Maybe if he was the only great artist making watches I may have to swallow my pride to buy one. Otherwise there are too many other choices!


I have seen once in a museum (I think it was MoMA in NY) a small closed metallic cane with the title "the artist's ....". Apparently in the 60s some modern artist actually collected his poo in 50 such canes - they sold like hot cakes (one ending up in the museum). Talking about relationships between artists and their consumers, it looks like many consumers could accept anything from their preferred artist. And BTW, FPJ IS such a great watchmaker artist that creates unique timepieces on par with others such as Vautilainen or Ferrier.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

OK i see the price for that one.. At least i have good taste... since after seeing that photo.. i did want one.. LOL



heuerolexomega said:


> That's the Grand Lange 1 "Lumen". A beautiful piece.


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



mark1958 said:


> OK i see the price for that one.. At least i have good taste... since after seeing that photo.. i did want one.. LOL


I know, its platinum. Set aside the price, is hard to find one!


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> As promised here are some pics of the watches that I am going to consider for my next purchase and a picture of the Tourbillon which I am NOT considering because I can't afford it . They are all rose gold as my next piece will be in rose gold for sure.
> 
> The Chronometre Souverain:
> View attachment 1195192
> ...


*AWESOME...*


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## westlake (Oct 10, 2011)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



metallic said:


> I will say one last thing about this and then cease beating this horse.
> 
> F.P. Journe has done a remarkable job launching and branding a high end watch company. No small task considering that his customer base is an extremely discriminating, persnickety group of buyers.
> 
> ...


François-Paul puts "Invenit et Fecit" on the dial of every watch FPJ makes. It roughly translates to "[He] invented it and made it", so I doubt he will ever take a back seat or reduced role so long as he is capable (in his eyes) of running the whole show. For better or worse, it begins and ends with him. His approach is no different than any of the other master watchmakers such as Kari Voutilainen or Philippe Dufour; they make a limited number of watches to their own aesthetic, design, quality and level of complication. Not sure someone will ever be able to replace them in their roles atop these manufacturers.


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



westlake said:


> *AWESOME...*


My favorite is the Octa Reserve de Marche! Simple but it has it all!
will probably be my next piece!


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## entropy96 (Nov 9, 2010)

FP Journe is a horological genius.
He is one of the best, amongst the likes of Philippe Dufour, Roger Dubuis, et al.

The talent and skill of this man is undeniable, his personality notwithstanding.

Generally, I view watches made by said watchmakers to be above well-established brands (ie. PP, ALS, Credor) in quality and prestige. Although there are some pieces from MontBlanc Villeret and PP that I consider to be on par with their works.
They belong in a different niche, a class of their own.


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

I like his watches too.. I took note of the Urban Jurgensen and Sonner and have to say those watches are very impressive. I do not see those listed anywhere in the USA for sale.I found one US AD... expensive .. and then what if you need repairs.. That is what concerns me.



entropy96 said:


> FP Journe is a horological genius.
> He is one of the best, amongst the likes of Philippe Dufour, Roger Dubuis, et al.
> 
> The talent and skill of this man is undeniable, his personality notwithstanding.
> ...


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Guys,
I am reviving this post as I have finally decided on my next piece. I will be picking up my Chronometre Bleu this weekend! After this thread and other threads about FP Journe many suggested that I consider this piece. I did and fell in love with it!

thanks all for the suggestions and I will post pics soon after I receive it this weekend!

SO EXCITED!


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## heuerolexomega (May 12, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> Guys,
> I am reviving this post as I have finally decided on my next piece. I will be picking up my Chronometre Bleu this weekend! After this thread and other threads about FP Journe many suggested that I consider this piece. I did and fell in love with it!
> 
> thanks all for the suggestions and I will post pics soon after I receive it this weekend!
> ...


I love that watch ! Congrats . Can't wait to see those pics !|>


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Buying that same piece in a few months hopefully, Wear it in good health!


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## mark1958 (Nov 30, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*

Congrats on the purchase. I am fairly certain the Chronometre Souverain is going to be my next purchase. I need a little more time to work on finances though&#8230;


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## Galactic Sushiman (Dec 3, 2012)

Excellent choice!!


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## jforozco (Dec 31, 2009)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



mark1958 said:


> Congrats on the purchase. I am fairly certain the Chronometre Souverain is going to be my next purchase. I need a little more time to work on finances though&#8230;


Thanks! All FP Journe pieces are awesome, it has quickly become one of my favorite brands! The CS is a beauty and has the same movement as the CB. IMO one of his most impressive and accurate movements! He uses the twin barrels for precision and not power reserve like most! Post pics when you buy it.



AbuKalb93 said:


> Buying that same piece in a few months hopefully, Wear it in good health!


It is one of the best buys in all of high end watchmaking IMHO! Are you going to buy from the boutique or an AD?



heuerolexomega said:


> I love that watch ! Congrats . Can't wait to see those pics !|>


Thanks Jorge!



Galactic Sushiman said:


> Excellent choice!!


Off course I agree with that!  Thanks!


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

*Re: I am not an expert, but here is my $.02...*



jforozco said:


> It is one of the best buys in all of high end watchmaking IMHO! Are you going to buy from the boutique or an AD?
> !


AD


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## zypher84 (Oct 23, 2007)

*Re: I am sorry, but...*



iim7v7im7 said:


> Being a horological genius does not entitle one to be rude nor does it obviate one from behaving in what is generally considered an ethical manner in dealing with partner companies and clients. Civil behavior and ethical practice is a reasonable expectation for all individuals and businesses.


this is like saying you would never buy apple products because steve jobs was an ....... in real life


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## AbuKalb93 (Dec 17, 2012)

*Re: I am sorry, but...*



zypher84 said:


> this is like saying you would never buy apple products because steve jobs was an ....... in real life


i hate apple because everyone (the general consumer choice) loves apple


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## bazluca (Jan 9, 2012)

*Re: I am sorry, but...*

i have n.2 annual calendar patek Philippe and i have a fp journe annual calendar, more i use it, more i love it, after 2 years that i own it i prefer it to my other patek Philippe annual calendar


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## mediasapiens (Jul 18, 2019)

This is very telling video produced by the brand themselves. It showcases their collaboration with old gun maker from UK and to me it shows that FPJ is mostly machine made watch touted to be a handmade rarity. Without taking away their design and engineering that goes into their AutoCAD machines I was disappointed to see that Holland & Holland is much more true to artisanal handmade tradition than FPJ. Again, both produce exceptional items , but FPJ clearly creates artificial scarcity.


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## 37 (Jan 7, 2020)

mediasapiens said:


> This is very telling video produced by the brand themselves. It showcases their collaboration with old gun maker from UK and to me it shows that FPJ is mostly machine made watch touted to be a handmade rarity. Without taking away their design and engineering that goes into their AutoCAD machines I was disappointed to see that Holland & Holland is much more true to artisanal handmade tradition than FPJ. Again, both produce exceptional items , but FPJ clearly creates artificial scarcity.


FPJ produces just under 1000 watches per annum. Regardless of their recent popularity, especially with the "investment" crowd, they aren't likely going to increase output to meet demand. They used to be readily available but their output never changed.

Where their artificial scarcity happened was a few years back when Govberg (here in the US) bought up nearly all of the FPJ watches available on the secondary market and jacked up prices. That was true market manipulation. One can easily argue that FPJ deserves recognition as a great watchmaker but what ruined it for enthusiasts was manipulation from an outside entity. That in turn pushed FPJ towards an application process to purchase a new watch from their boutiques, making the only choice for many being to suffer the secondary market price. Again, they could increase output but risk making too many if the watch market reverses. There's no great answer at this point.

Regarding automation, all of the big names are automated. Lange, VC, AP, Patek, and Rolex are all made entirely by machines and use CAD to design movements. The difference is final finishing, quality control, and output numbers. FPJ used to have reliability issues not that long ago so one could argue that CAD and automation are the best solution.

Holland and Holland is now owned by Beretta and likely wouldn't survive today without that investment. H&H currently enjoy the use of AutoCAD and CNC machines to produce their actions and stocks, even if they are hand carved and hand finished in the end. Their output per annum is still fewer than 100 units.

That aside, the H&H stainless Chronometre is a beautiful watch. I'm sure all 66 will go to existing H&H customers who own multiple $100k+ shotguns and are also watch enthusiasts. I don't see FPJ wanting these to end up on the secondary market.

The video was great. Thank you for sharing. 🍻


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## mediasapiens (Jul 18, 2019)

37 said:


> FPJ produces just under 1000 watches per annum. Regardless of their recent popularity, especially with the "investment" crowd, they aren't likely going to increase output to meet demand. They used to be readily available but their output never changed.
> 
> Where their artificial scarcity happened was a few years back when Govberg (here in the US) bought up nearly all of the FPJ watches available on the secondary market and jacked up prices. That was true market manipulation. One can easily argue that FPJ deserves recognition as a great watchmaker but what ruined it for enthusiasts was manipulation from an outside entity. That in turn pushed FPJ towards an application process to purchase a new watch from their boutiques, making the only choice for many being to suffer the secondary market price. Again, they could increase output but risk making too many if the watch market reverses. There's no great answer at this point.
> 
> ...


The HH watch is already available on Chrono. So these are being flipped already, unfortunately. CnC is great, no doubt. My point was that I am surprised to learn that he is no Defour when it comes to making watches. He intentionally position his machine made watches as extremely limited collector items.
Finishing-shmininshiing; even engraving is done by machines.
One thing is clear FPJ is a great watch designer, he is to classic watches what Richard Mille to sports watch.


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## 37 (Jan 7, 2020)

mediasapiens said:


> The HH watch is already available on Chrono. So these are being flipped already, unfortunately. CnC is great, no doubt. My point was that I am surprised to learn that he is no Defour when it comes to making watches. He intentionally position his machine made watches as extremely limited collector items.
> Finishing-shmininshiing; even engraving is done by machines.
> One thing is clear FPJ is a great watch designer, he is to classic watches what Richard Mille to sports watch.


No one is at the same level as Phillipe Defour. His watches are truly hand-made and sell for hundreds of thousands to millions. Everyone, including Breguet, will look like a robot factory in comparison.

It’s interesting to see one of the H&H on C24 already. That same dealer has quite a few rare FPJ references available. While disappointing it’s not surprising. Even one of the recent VC Everest chronograph models ended up on C24 not long after launch. But, my point wasn’t that none would be flipped but instead to say that FPJ’s intentions are that they not be flipped. One or two will likely get out there but with 66 total it won’t be an easy watch to find.

FPJ has designed unique and interesting movements and combined complications in ways no one before him ever has. Regardless of how much handwork goes into his watches or how few are made, it’s hard to argue against his designs. They aren’t for everyone and of course the limited production solidifies that, but CAD and CNC are found under nearly every watch brand’s roof these days.

I‘m not defending FPJ here. I’m simply pointing out that automation in manufacturing is part of the industry.

At least we still have mechanical timepieces to enjoy. We could all be wearing G-Shocks and stuck with a digital Seconde Morte as our only option.


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## mykii (Oct 22, 2010)

37 said:


> FPJ produces just under 1000 watches per annum. Regardless of their recent popularity, especially with the "investment" crowd, they aren't likely going to increase output to meet demand. They used to be readily available but their output never changed.
> 
> Where their artificial scarcity happened was a few years back when Govberg (here in the US) bought up nearly all of the FPJ watches available on the secondary market and jacked up prices. That was true market manipulation. One can easily argue that FPJ deserves recognition as a great watchmaker but what ruined it for enthusiasts was manipulation from an outside entity. That in turn pushed FPJ towards an application process to purchase a new watch from their boutiques, making the only choice for many being to suffer the secondary market price. Again, they could increase output but risk making too many if the watch market reverses. There's no great answer at this point.
> 
> ...


Beautifully put!


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## mediasapiens (Jul 18, 2019)

I would say that Roger W. Smith is the same as Defour or perhaps even more handmade. I bet Defour does not make his own hairsprings.


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## WatchEater666 (May 27, 2019)

I don’t think some of you posting here realize how hard it is to scale a manufacturing operation like FPJ. Even with “plenty” of automation it’s not easy to increase output 3x in a year lol.

Watches have relatively bad margin relative to something like beauty with 90%+ GM, which means scaling is stupid expensive. If an entrepreneur doesn’t want to run highly levered or sell equity to fund that, then they grow output at a lower rate.

So to the point above, I don’t think FPJ is doing much, it’s all govberg/watchbox manipulating the used market.


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## 37 (Jan 7, 2020)

mediasapiens said:


> I would say that Roger W. Smith is the same as Defour or perhaps even more handmade. I bet Defour does not make his own hairsprings.


Other than price, yes. RW Smith is iconic because of who he mentored under but unfortunately isn't appreciated at the same level as Defour.

Very few if any independents make their own hairsprings. That's something where automation has saved an industry.


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## 37 (Jan 7, 2020)

WatchEater666 said:


> I don’t think some of you posting here realize how hard it is to scale a manufacturing operation like FPJ. Even with “plenty” of automation it’s not easy to increase output 3x in a year lol.
> 
> Watches have relatively bad margin relative to something like beauty with 90%+ GM, which means scaling is stupid expensive. If an entrepreneur doesn’t want to run highly levered or sell equity to fund that, then they grow output at a lower rate.
> 
> So to the point above, I don’t think FPJ is doing much, it’s all govberg/watchbox manipulating the used market.


Agreed. And assuming FPJ knows his market is where it is because of Govberg, I don't expect him to increase production even if he could. If the watch market falls out and he's making 3x in a year, now he's far worse than the old days where 1x was the right amount. It's easier to expand than it is to fire employees, sell equipment and go back to a smaller building.

I lay blame on Govberg, even if FPJ's popularity is deserved. Market manipulation ruins the hobby.

I'm all for automation myself. We wouldn't have today's watches without it. Output would be far less than it is now.


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