# Minimalist design dress sport (with miyota automatic)



## Nalco

Salute to everyone,

Last month I draw some 42 mm, miyota powered( 9215 or 9015) dress sport. Here what I can adapt to my limited photoshop knowledge. Need your comments, though the case-lug combin is a bit unusual, as the backlid is the lugs at same time. Design can be used only cushion or leather nato/zulu.


----------



## Bram Utrecht

I like the minimalistic looks of the watch. Keep it up!


----------



## dspt

looks a bit thick to me
also, a longer minutes hand would be nice


----------



## Nalco

Overal height is 14,2 mm ,if you consider 42 mm case laterally and 54 mm lug to lug, isn't it plausible (miyota 8215 thickness is 5,67 and the sapphire screen nest will be 2 mm thick the screen will be lower than the upper point so that the screen will be much more protected to scratches and impacts, if you add the backlid, the security spaces and dial, hands space etc only it can get thinner in case of use of Miy 9015 or ETA 2824-2,sellita 200 sth). Please comment. The hands will be replaced with longer but minimal design ones as original. I will keep the sandwich dial.


----------



## dspt

AUTODROMO GROUP B has the same styled lugs and Miyota 9015 (3.9mm height) and the total height is 10mm
Smith PRS-40 with similar design has only 8.4 mm height (but it uses quartz)

So while your construction is technically plausible, design-wise it's significantly thicker then some "competitors" 
It might look better on more detailed renders, I just don't know. 
If you are targeting people that like oversized pieces, you might think of increasing other dimentions as well.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you dspt. I have checked the AUTODROMO site(it seems they are fashion type and 5 atm,nice watches and collection), yes design slightly resembles (our case is assymetric) but the manufacturing technique is much more different.I saw that they use standard backlid, where we do not. Our backlid platform is the lugs at same time. If we consider ,the salient big size watches are prefered nowadays, and if this will be dress/sport, I will not touch the thickness.I made a mock up from polystrene and put a 20 mm nato on it two days ago, it seems ok for height,not so thick.The reason is angeled concave shaved case I think.It gets and fits to 42 mm at bottom, at screen edge the diameter is smaller(think like a volcano cone) I have some watches from 80s the case sizes around 36 mm and thickness below 10 mm. They look weird on wrist now, and I wondered how I weared these. And I hear lots of people talking on watch case thicknesses. Some prefer thin some thick.I don't know, majority of ladies prefer thin, gentlemen prefer masculine ,thick cases I think.


----------



## mkws

Nalco said:


> gentlemen prefer masculine ,thick cases I think.


Tell that to Jaeger-LeCoultre, Vacheron Constantin, Piaget, Zenith, Omega, and Patek Philippe.
The majority of proper watch companies work on developing _thinner_ watches, and work on that since - approximately - the 1950s.
I'm a man, and I don't prefer thick watch cases, since they're a) heavy b) uncomfortable c) not fitting properly under a shirt cuff d) blingy. They're fashionable alright, but I have usually seen massive watches on people, who due to a large wrist size just couldn't wear anything smaller, and on people who sacrificed their personal comfort to look "fashionable". With the latter, the result was, that the watch was rising over the wrist like Mount-bloody-Everest, and the lugs were sticking out well beyond the wrist.
42mm is fine, but the watch is simply too thick.
A chunk of steel on the wrist is no good, unless the size is justified by the tech specs of the watch- for example, in a diver watch, like the Eterna Super KonTiki or the Omega Ploprof.
200m water resistance like in your concept can be achieved without making the case look like a chunk of iron. 
I can't see how it's a "dress sport" watch. It's a sports watch alright, with an unnecessarily massive case. Nothing dress about it, though.


----------



## Nalco

thank you mkws.Great points and contribution. The design will be biased to sport & tool then. Lets see how we can improve the case for thickness, lets check the feasibility technically:

the sapphire screen nest thickness: 2 mm
the hands section layer 2 mm
the dial 0,40 mm
the miy 8215 5,67 mm
the security gap for rotor 1 mm
the backlid thickness(for case nest) 1,7 mm

the feasible lowered thickness as 12,77 mm overall. It is better than 14,2mm first thickness. The autodromo and smith can not be compared since they are not 20 atm WR. My OMEGA SM PO is almost 16 mm sth. In use of miy 9015 , we can reduce thickness a bit more I think.


----------



## dspt

I think it's possible to machine the backlid to be thinner below the movement. You probably don't need all 1.7mm thickness there, just at the screws and lugs.
Once again, what do you think of making other dimensions bigger? your watch can be 45mm wide, for example, and this might make the proportions more balanced. Nowadays it's a rather common size for sports watch (while me, personally, I prefer smaller watches)


----------



## Nalco

20 atm is a serious pressure where this means you can dive deep more than 14 m actually. I planned manufacturing at 5 axis ,not mould process(it is expansive and need huge press mould) If the watch had planned 5-10 atm may be 1 mm it was ok, but for diving purposes it has to be robust. The actual thickness of the backlid platform is 2 mm( 1,7 mm is the nest of case sits) 1,7 thickness with backlid allen bolts nests are 0,5 mm deep (1,7-0,5 it has 1,2 actual thickness of weakness that the bolts catch and sit on stainless steel plate on back) BTW I planned M 1,4 x 3 (0,3 pitch) allen bolts for backlid. It will be better to make a poll for size here. I am not sure for size it may be between 42 to 45. Screen opening is 30 mm. I want the dial and hands on a glance easy read scale.


----------



## Nalco

Before 3D renders and poll , the hands are revised and the case side connection of backlid-lug platform- parts are shaved.( this time as MKWS said, "chunk" look is terminated also with reducing height to 12,77) What you think about the gun barrel,revolver like x6 case grooves 60 deg. angeled? I aimed to give a military look like character, complying with ( sergeant sign) chevron 12 sandwich index. Originally I had been inspired over Iver Johnson .22 (circa 1880s) and Prescot Navy .38 (rimfire 1860s ) but I could not reflect or attribute the features of guns. Prescot was used by US Navy officers.


----------



## Maverick223

I like the dial and the integrated lug bars, but I agree with respect to the thickness...the revised thickness is much more tolerable. I also like the case shape changes with the fluting added (though I'm not a revolver guy). Personally I would loose interest if the size were increased beyond 42mm as that is the high-end of the sweet spot for me when it comes to sports watches (with 40mm being the top end for dress style watches).

One last detail...don't cheap out and change the back screws to slotted!...they are a PITA to properly remove and tighten and have been the cause of many a scratch. Allen, torx (which you may want to consider, as they are a superior fastener head IMO), or even Robertson style heads are far better designs as they aren't "open-ended" (thereby greatly reducing the chance of slipping and damaging the watch), have less propensity to wear prematurely (even when over-torqued, which can lead to the unintended side effect of sheared fasteners when folks apply the "gorilla-grip"), and tend to retain the fastener on the tip of the driver (particularly the case for torx).


----------



## Nalco

Thank you Maverick. I understand your concern. Frankly, I have discovered and tested a way to manufacture steel and titanium watches, without using conventional methods. No need for moulds for cases and backlids, no MOQ restrictions.I am sure ,many of manufacturer, new comers are frustrated with MOQ restrictions of Honk Kong ,etc manufacturers(a common problem). Instead, I will manufacture this series in Europe, and the price of watch will not exceed USD 350.We are talking about a budget friendly timepiece and I do never think to use a fund rising campaign, or pre order way. I will directly put the watches on website,keep a security stock and feed it, to fulfil orders and accept paypal or wire. I am sure people are getting bored to wait products they pledge or unexpected difficulties of rookie manufacturers. I will never offer a watch to people, that I can not wear. First, I have to be convinced by myself.

For the backscrews, yes you are right.The standard slotted bolts/screws are pita, thats why I used allen head bolts. I d like to have custom made ones ,but this will increase the costs, and it will make difficult to find screws in market for users.If we consider that, the backlid platform will be opened by watch repairers and authorised people, no need to worry for allen heads.They are quite secure to tighten or loose, and they already in market,and possibility of scratch is minimum.Here are some shots of the allens I will use and movement for first model Miyota 8215 for X1 I will upgrade movement to 9015 at X2. I started to obtain/gather parts. I have already started the concept of dial with my dial maker.


----------



## Maverick223

That sounds like a fair price for what looks to be a solid watch. I know you have a ways to go, but I look forward to seeing them enter the marketplace.


----------



## Nalco

The first contributors are precious to manufacturing.You are seperating time,and giving your honest ideas. If we can manufacture the X1 , I will have some solid surprise for dspt,mkws and maverick. Conceptual and technical contributers are always welcomed. Just being in centre, we watchmakers may miss some points, due many points we have to deal with.I am glad watch lovers and enthusiasts are very meticulous and pushing.


----------



## Nalco

I thought the brushed finish overall, as my experiences and user advices leads to keep away from fluted shiny and sand/bead blasted surface. Especially the blasted, I like the texture but easily shows scratches. With a shiny finish, the posture will loose its tool like look. The brushed seems advantegous. We have to regard the look and practical usage together. Any ideas?


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> The first contributors are precious to manufacturing.You are seperating time,and giving your honest ideas. If we can manufacture the X1 , I will have some solid surprise for dspt,mkws and maverick. Conceptual and technical contributers are always welcomed. Just being in centre, we watchmakers may miss some points, due many points we have to deal with.I am glad watch lovers and enthusiasts are very meticulous and pushing.


Thank you for the kind words, _Nalco_.



Nalco said:


> I thought the brushed finish overall, as my experiences and user advices leads to keep away from fluted shiny and sand/bead blasted surface. Especially the blasted, I like the texture but easily shows scratches. With a shiny finish, the posture will loose its tool like look. The brushed seems advantegous. We have to regard the look and practical usage together. Any ideas?


I wouldn't go for polished for exactly the reasons you describe, but I really like the bead blasted appearance and haven't found it to show scratches easily (I have one or two Ti and several Stainless watches with this finish), though I would concur that it shows scratches more than does a brushed finish (though that often depends upon the way the finish was applied, because a scratch that goes "against the grain" would probably show more than on a comparable blasted finish). That said, I like brushed almost as much and have several watches with that finish as well. In fact it coincides with most of my watches which are mostly as follows: Polished dress watches (natural choice IMO; most have leather straps), Brushed sports watches (divers, aviation watches, most have bracelets instead of straps), and Blasted utilitarian watches (military inspired watches like fliegers and field watches; most have NATO/Zulu straps). This watch would seemingly fit perfectly in the second style, though I would lean towards a Perlon/braided nylon strap, just to be different (this should go nicely on the integrated lugs).


----------



## Nalco

Just thinking loud, what if the cone case is brushed and backlid-lug platform is sandblasted? Kinda combination of finishes?
I checked, perlon/braided, they are very nice. We can use khaki and gray striped colors, I think original,and will look different & authentic with case.Perlon/braideds are quite different than velcro and fabric ones I think.The mesh structure lets air circulation and prevents sweat.Thats nice! Thank you Maverick. We have also options of leather preferances on zulu style. Here I put in sequence: Perlon/braided, the nato/zulu (camo and khaki), and leather zulu (s)


----------



## mkws

Combination of different finishing types throughout the case is perfectly fine, it's known as contrast polishing. Being a vintage watch aficionado, I've seen a lot of cases with mirror polishing and fine brushing, but sandblasted and brushed sounds good to me as well.


----------



## Maverick223

I really like the idea of the dual blasted/brushed finish and would even go one step further and brush the fluting on the side of the case as well as the top. I think it would really set it apart while not making it gaudy or detracting from the utilitarian appearance.

I mentioned in my PM that there was one thing that could detract from potential buyers. That's the lug design; which, as it stands now, precludes the installation of anything that isn't a NATO/Zulu design from being used (but also makes for a stronger design and makes it unusual and interesting), but I have a solution for that. I think it might be useful to make the lug/strap holders open ended on one side, but have them interface with the case in such a way that it would effectively lock when the case-back is screwed down. In other words: you would be able to add a traditional strap or more importantly a bracelet (I know many a watch wearer that won't wear one without a bracelet) with lug holes by removing and reinstalling the back. This would, in my humble opinion, be the best of both worlds (very strong/secure & permit the use of traditional bracelets/bands).


----------



## Nalco

yes then, we can imagine upper body brushed and caseback-lug platform sandblast finish. This type of lug-backlid design will reduce cost. If we return to conventional lug design pin grooves,pins,lugs... manufacturing method will be different and we have to put a conventional backlid to watch as result the look and design will be ordinary, moreover the price will soar. We can not have all at same time I think, we have to leave metal bracelet aside( I want to give this option but the design and restrictions do not let us), but wide range material nato-zulu designs straps will compansate the metal bracelet need.As you know,yet some of conventional designs do not let you to replace bracelet to metal (except mesh) due case fix parts and lug apparatus. I can not cahnge my Omega or Orient with ordinary ss bracelet eg.


----------



## dspt

Hi, interesting developments,
Looking at the case grooves you have introduced, I can't help thinking about Alba aqua gear with similar 6x grooves (the obvious difference is wider divers bezel and lugs)
(pic borrowed from SCTF user JamesTTS)









here you can see an approximate of how the top of your watch might look like in metal. Note how polished and brushed finishes are mixed together on the side of such case. I'm not sure if this is done on purpose, or such combination was technically easier to do then full brushed finish on the sides
The inner part of the "screen nest" on this watch (with a sort of index marks as part of the case) can be an inspiration too.

As for the lugs, if you plan leather nato and zulu , make sure they will fit the holes, as they are thinner then neylon

I've read you are not planning crowd-sourcing for your watch. Please consider crowd-sourcing being not only a financing tool, but also a marketing tool, letting you spread info about your product in a cheap and efficient way. Even if you don't need extra money to fund your production, do you have marketing strategy?


----------



## Maverick223

I don't believe that my design would cost a great deal more, it would just take a little more machining (there would still be no springbar) because the case itself would have a protrusion that met the open end of the hook and retained the strap. I picture an "L" that is met with a protrusion from the case that completes the loop. Don't get me wrong, I like your design (I think it will look a great deal better than the one pictured above because it should be thinner and have traditional strap attachment locations on the side rather than beneath the case) I just feel that this revision might make it a bit more marketable.


----------



## Nalco

yes this is a real humpdy dumpty( sorry aqua gear brand but this size looks like 1000 m at least 500). looks like 1000 m but only 200. X1 will be thinner, very thinner. The screen will be sinked like this to prevent scrathes and the grooves will be more slight smooth (will look like Magnum or revolver style). The strap holes will be 2 mm thick, and 22 mm wide, if we consider, we redused the thickness of watch, it will be enough space.
Crowd source can be used for marketing, yes true, but not for sole funding. I think, the entrepreneur use it, just to expand the qtty, they aready make followers from different channels.In last couple of months I heard a lot of people using crowdfunding, and most of their manufacturers are causing problems as deviations and late deliveries etc. EG: A drone company lastly bankrupted with couple of millon dollars,and delivered only small portion of pledges.


----------



## Nalco

Do you mean opening the lugs like this?











Maverick223 said:


> I don't believe that my design would cost a great deal more, it would just take a little more machining (there would still be no springbar) because the case itself would have a protrusion that met the open end of the hook and retained the strap. I picture an "L" that is met with a protrusion from the case that completes the loop. Don't get me wrong, I like your design (I think it will look a great deal better than the one pictured above because it should be thinner and have traditional strap attachment locations on the side rather than beneath the case) I just feel that this revision might make it a bit more marketable.


----------



## Maverick223

More like these modified renderings depict:


----------



## dspt

Nalco said:


> yes this is a real humpdy dumpty( sorry aqua gear brand but this size looks like 1000 m at least 500). looks like 1000 m but only 200.


This Alba (Seiko sub-brand) aqua gear is actually about 13 mm thick according to its' specs
Case 45 mm at base and 41 mm at bezel


----------



## Nalco

Ok got it. At first, the manufacturing method was from 316 or 304 grade ss 4 mm thick plates (lazer cut or 3-5 axis cut), if we apply conventional lug system (lugs integrated to case body) then we have to carve (drill/lathe) from solid mass rolled piece min radius 55 or 60 mm.And as dspt indicated at first, our case will look like exact modified copy of Smith prs 40,the point is people gonna say "it likes ....." :


----------



## Nalco

It was good , I saw some resemblances at the beginning.Thank you dspt. Since yesterday , I get cold from adding revolver style grooves. It was a nice muse but, we have to leave the inspirations aside.If this model will be authentic, it must not look like sth. Lets keep the clean, minimal case, like at begining:


----------



## Maverick223

I understand both the desire to create something unique and different as well as keep the manufacturing costs low, but personally I believe the flutes are one of the features that really set this watch apart from the competition (sure the Seiko/AquaGear has somewhat similar flutes, but the rest of the watch is very different). I believe that the original case was too "sterile", there needs to be something added to make the case a little more interesting. This doesn't necessarily have to be flutes, and really shouldn't be complications (due to the utilitarian nature of the watch), but something to break up the lines without adding unnecessary parts/weight/intricacy would add visual appeal, at least for me. The flutes are actually utilitarian in nature, as they serve to lighten the watch without reducing the case thickness, thus making it weaker and more susceptible to damage. I doubt the difference is significant, but that's my thoughts.


----------



## Nalco

If you say so, and if we count utilitarian part ,as reducing weight, I can leave the grooves/flutes, but they must be different and must not resemble to Seiko/AquaGear or any other model. Here comes, I am open to any inspirations. Pls just give me solid unique idea to furnish the case body,*I INVITE EVERYBODY*, lets review all ideas here at forum (like think thank or brainstorming), select best one(s) and apply to design, and have a watch like not any other before.



Maverick223 said:


> I understand both the desire to create something unique and different as well as keep the manufacturing costs low, but personally I believe the flutes are one of the features that really set this watch apart from the competition (sure the Seiko/AquaGear has somewhat similar flutes, but the rest of the watch is very different). I believe that the original case was too "sterile", there needs to be something added to make the case a little more interesting. This doesn't necessarily have to be flutes, and really shouldn't be complications (due to the utilitarian nature of the watch), but something to break up the lines without adding unnecessary parts/weight/intricacy would add visual appeal, at least for me. The flutes are actually utilitarian in nature, as they serve to lighten the watch without reducing the case thickness, thus making it weaker and more susceptible to damage. I doubt the difference is significant, but that's my thoughts.


----------



## Maverick223

How about this for an idea...seven or eight spiral flutes (much like that of a spirally fluted rifle bolt; see this image search for inspiration). They would end up slanted, rather than having curvature, so it shouldn't be that difficult of a machining operation, but I'm no machinist, so I don't know for certain. I think it would be both unique (I can't think of anything like it) and interesting. I'm not trying to ram this idea forward, it's just the first thing that popped into my mind...I too would like to hear other folks opinions and ideas (I'm only one man, and thus can't predict what the entire market would enjoy).


----------



## Nalco

It is nice and creative, I added. |>



Maverick223 said:


> How about this for an idea...seven or eight spiral flutes (much like that of a spirally fluted rifle bolt; see this image search for inspiration). They would end up slanted, rather than having curvature, so it shouldn't be that difficult of a machining operation, but I'm no machinist, so I don't know for certain. I think it would be both unique (I can't think of anything like it) and interesting. I'm not trying to ram this idea forward, it's just the first thing that popped into my mind...I too would like to hear other folks opinions and ideas (I'm only one man, and thus can't predict what the entire market would enjoy).


----------



## Maverick223

I'm glad you like it!


----------



## Nalco

Just diving into finishing sauce, that will complete the design and give final touches of unity, I would like to give a brief how we came to this point. You will see the analysis of a design and core concept, which can be inspiring and make you to feel contributing, complying with whole concept.Please see the first rough watch illustrations I put here, and see how the design core & concept seems familiar/ common and at the same time original.The reason is reflection of multi source inspirations and muse cumulated:

The designing and manufacturing a minimalistic watch idea was in my mind 8 months ago.I read somewhere,while looking at some early submachine guns,I saw STEN ( the simple, effective, easy to manufacture WWII era British submachine gun, you can check from wikipedia) and would like to adapt the idea of manufacturing to watchmaking especially to CNC.See first Sten:

and over this manufacturing, using standard machinery and raw materials, the dial have to be simple but original. Using common international signs as "sergeant sign at 12H" and water drop style sandwich index, not used in any other brands or models directly, on grey textured surface, with light green superluminova, basic and clear laser cut hands:















The case was a combination of 2 pieces : the upper body and backlid/lug platform. The upper part of body was a reflection of nature(sea urchin shell):









The conshelf underwater research home designed by J.J. Cousteau:









and 70s cult series U.F.O., the orbit satellite alarming earth for ufo "intruder detector -grasshoper):









up far, do you see the characteristics of the objects I indicated? Then the backlid/lug platform, the famous apollo lunar module.See the legs, and X1 lugs position:









and the F 117 Stealth fighter jet.The narrow angle,sharp edges, continious flat surfaces:









finally I added and removed last week the grooves (as flutes) of revolver, which I like very much of hand made(can see file lines on the cock) article from 1800s,interesting part of my collection.I J .22:

I was aiming to create a watch can be used in every occasion, in dress, casual, sport, dive, leisure, travel, at work, daily in summer,winter, in every condition.A piece that will make people to wear in joy, just only to make wear other collection parts for fun and difference, at rest of time, X1 to be prefered to wear and not to take it off whole day.Salient but "screaming in dignity" that will attract attention, and make friends to ask" WOW, look at this ,where you get it from?" Affordable, but high end looking, durable with 8215 and 9015 Miyota work horses, that will give the easy servicing, low maintenance, easy to find spare parts,accurate and reliable.


----------



## Certa

What is the sport and what is the dress part on this watch, I dont get it. For a dress watch it looks to simple for me and for a sports watch I miss any sports functions, the bezel is blank and no stop funktion ?.? 
I would change the colors of the dial and the bezel maybe....



Nalco said:


> Salute to everyone,
> 
> Last month I draw some 42 mm, miyota powered( 9215 or 9015) dress sport. Here what I can adapt to my limited photoshop knowledge. Need your comments, though the case-lug combin is a bit unusual, as the backlid is the lugs at same time. Design can be used only cushion or leather nato/zulu.
> View attachment 6501538
> View attachment 6501554
> View attachment 6501562
> View attachment 6501570


----------



## Nalco

Thanks Certa, well the perfection for a dress can be counted as "jaeger lecoultre geophysic" very clean ,simple look.For Sports, it has no need to be many functions on it. There are many samples from different brands,pls check omegas,orients etc., X1 will be 20 ATM WR , can be used at water sport activities as well. And the version X2 will be Miy 9015, which has stop function. Then what you offer for the dial and bezel? Can you give some specific ideas pls?The concept itself "Minimalistic-Dress/Sport" I have not actually put many functions and selected simple movement, may be just may be can be chrono version possible in fture, without turning it to a mumbo jumbo gadget.



Certa said:


> What is the sport and what is the dress part on this watch, I dont get it. For a dress watch it looks to simple for me and for a sports watch I miss any sports functions, the bezel is blank and no stop funktion ?.?
> I would change the colors of the dial and the bezel maybe....


----------



## Nalco

Good News everybody ! As update, the technical drawings of main components and base will be finished within this week, so we can adapt the final changes, revisions, make up, size on and jump to render, prototyping soon, where I guess can be possible in end of Feb or March.


----------



## Nalco

Hey Maverick, I was expecting DSPT to find it , but one of my friend send me link today of some as in link when I shared your idea, if you mean this type of spiral flute it is made, we can also apply this to whole curved body, it is feasible and low cost but what if it looks like a giant automotive gear cogwheel? Still good idea , I will keep it, we can do the teeth slight, not very deep.



Maverick223 said:


> How about this for an idea...seven or eight spiral flutes (much like that of a spirally fluted rifle bolt; see this image search for inspiration). They would end up slanted, rather than having curvature, so it shouldn't be that difficult of a machining operation, but I'm no machinist, so I don't know for certain. I think it would be both unique (I can't think of anything like it) and interesting. I'm not trying to ram this idea forward, it's just the first thing that popped into my mind...I too would like to hear other folks opinions and ideas (I'm only one man, and thus can't predict what the entire market would enjoy).


----------



## jalaludin.ayubi

Qvp

Sent from my HM 1SW using Tapatalk


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> Hey Maverick, I was expecting DSPT to find it , but one of my friend send me link today of some as in link when I shared your idea, if you mean this type of spiral flute it is made, we can also apply this to whole curved body, it is feasible and low cost but what if it looks like a giant automotive gear cogwheel? Still good idea , I will keep it, we can do the teeth slight, not very deep.


That's a little smaller and greater in number than what I had pictured, but I like that too...perhaps even more than the few/deeper ones. At the risk of looking like a cog (I don't believe it will, but you never know until you see a rendering), I definitely like the idea of continuing the design through the entire case (otherwise it would appear as though it had a rotating bezel).

One thing to keep in mind, regarding the movement you select. The 9015 is a good bit thinner than the 8215, so you might want to either slightly modify the case for the thinner movement or [if funds permit] just use the 9015 in all of the watches.


----------



## dspt

I'm not comfortable giving design suggestions, as I think it's up to Nalco to decide. But I think this "fluted rifle bolt" pattern Maverick223 talks about is too fancy for this concept. I can't imagine STEN machine gun or stealth jet decorated like that.
While some shallow pattern on the case might be a good idea, not sure. Maybe stonewashing the sides as a finish, like they do with blades?


----------



## Nalco

Every idea must be appreciated, please do not run into that uncomfort. Every thought, every inspiration is valuable and contributive. Do you mean, full sandblasting both case and lower platform? Just in minute, I thought what if we black PVD treat the case? What you think? Upper black matte, lower sandblasted? Just idea. What we do is trying to improve, generate many ideas. One brain thinks one, multiple brains, multiple choices. Result: best, optimal result(s)



dspt said:


> I'm not comfortable giving design suggestions, as I think it's up to Nalco to decide. But I think this "fluted rifle bolt" pattern Maverick223 talks about is too fancy for this concept. I can't imagine STEN machine gun or stealth jet decorated like that.
> While some shallow pattern on the case might be a good idea, not sure. Maybe stonewashing the sides as a finish, like they do with blades?


----------



## dspt

Ok, so I'll throw in a few suggestions to consider. Once again, it's up to you to decide whether they fit the concept. As for the finish, I was referring to stonewashing, which is a rough version of beadblasting (I believe such a finish is very scratch-proof), but PVD is fine too. (all borrowed pics below)









1. I think it's possible to place some text on the side of the watch to decorate it. It can be name, logo, some extra info, like water resistance. Something like this

























2. Another suggestion is to pay attention to the chapter ring - the inner rim between the dial and the crystal. In most watches the chapter ring is blank, but it can be decorated. In most cases it has markers









sometimes something more interesting









You watch might have rifling pattern there, for example, to compliment military theme









or something else.

3. Another thing is a crown. Personally, I'm a fan of recessed crowns. They are more comfortable to wear and they look better. The case also acts as a guard around recessed crown. It's not common for screw-down crowns, so if you are planning a screw-down, this can be excessive. Some examples

























thanks


----------



## Nalco

Yes these all quite impressive, especially stonewash finish on case. This may disguise the future scratches and melt the scratches in texture(nice feature for scratch-fobia people), another option is treating the case with Tungsten carbur( the very heavy industrial drills are coated like this to last long, but has a slight problem, the object becomes very shiny, like a silver spoon). For side engravings, most of people are getting irritated from Invicta style outher-side bold engravings, but this style goes well with U-boats, it is strange. I think just because of the big and bold style of U boat cases.If we do that the concept will much lean to Sport style then dress. And also the recessed crown. I was planning 6,5-7 mm diameter vs 3-3,5 mm thick crown.Maybe we can carve the body up to 0,5 or 1 mm and make it sink to body a little bit.Nice idea! I still work on the body fluting, the options here are quite satisfying.


----------



## mkws

dspt is right about the chapter ring- I would say that the watch would benefit greatly from having that. A simple, brushed steel ring would do.
As to the bezel, I don't think that any rifling or fluting is necessary. Keep it simple. 
Affordable sports watches tend to have a lot of decorations- Invicta is a quite unfortunate example of that.
With the military-inspired marker at 12 o'clock, I'd suggest some military inspirations for the entire design:
British military "W.W.W." watches, AKA the "Dirty Dozen"
The Bulova A17A
The F-22 Raptor
The first generation of the Land Rover Defender (originally designed as a military vehicle)
The original Jeep
The BMW Sahara motorcycle
Colt M1911
Webley revolver

Just throwing in some ideas, based on associations.


----------



## Maverick223

I like some of the new ideas that have been brought forth since I last checked in. Particularly the stonewashed case and the chapter ring (personally I would want some sort of decoration added to it, like minute markers or something of the like). I'm on the fence about a recessed crown...I love them on a dress watch, but I actually like the look and utility of a chunky crown on a sports watch (even though it occasionally digs into your wrist). I would, however, keep text off of the sides of the watch as I believe it both cheapens the look and add unnecessary machining expense.


----------



## Nalco

Gentlemen, we have gone quite far in short time. Regarding the last days ideas, I compiled all, including todays ideas. The crown recessed in case body slightly (like in Omega SM series) DONE!, The angeled chapter ring added (with red second markers on) this give 3D feeling to dial.DONE!. For fluting, I today remembered a scene from a documentary about ISS (International space station) There on one of panel a fluted switch knob.I applied the figure here( I could not perfectly give the feeling and angle in photoshop but will in renders). Previously, the number of grooves were 6, now for every hour marker (except 3H) and they are angeled, not going down to whole body of case.Just slight, gentle,shallow carves, that they will never let catch dirt etc.DONE! I worked on the dial with chevron(as usual) with 12 marker, and double drop at 12H.DONE! I need your comments (BTW we are really turned the base to a very authentic timepiece, the whole forum started to check I think):


----------



## Maverick223

I really like the new look. The flutes make it complex enough to be interesting without adding clutter or unnecessary parts/features that detract for the utility of the watch (and 12x is a natural number to go with!). With respect to the dial, I rather like the original Sergeant chevrons, but honestly the double dot looks interesting as well (I hated it to begin with, but it keeps growing on me)...the arabic "12" is too commonplace nor does it fit the theme IMO.

On a different, but related, note...how difficult would it be to produce the watch with a 24hr. dial? I don't know if Miyota/Citizen produces one in either/both movements, nor do I know how it would be received by the masses (definitely a smaller audience, but also far fewer watches to choose from with this feature, especially in the price segment this would fit into), but I have been longing for a 24hr. watch (on the main register, not a sub-dial) for some time now, and I think it would be a perfect fit in this design.


----------



## mkws

I find the "sergeant" hour marker at 12 o'clock the best of the three options.
Looks really great with the new chapter ring.


----------



## Nalco

24 H feature is another story, let me give some info: The central hand movements are limited the eta 2893 series (quite expensive) or clone hangzhou 6460 (which is not reliable according to experts) or a quartz option Ronda 515.24 H (used by Vic.Infantry and some mid end brands, nice movement but quartz) Our dial opening will not let to put 24 h scale, if we put it will be mess.Moreover we have to change the technical cavity for movement in case(the stem heights and diameters, thicknesses are different. Lets move on just now with Miy 8215 and 9015, after manufacturing, I will look possibility for independent 24 H hand model.



Maverick223 said:


> I really like the new look. The flutes make it complex enough to be interesting without adding clutter or unnecessary parts/features that detract for the utility of the watch (and 12x is a natural number to go with!). With respect to the dial, I rather like the original Sergeant chevrons, but honestly the double dot looks interesting as well (I hated it to begin with, but it keeps growing on me)...the arabic "12" is too commonplace nor does it fit the theme IMO.
> 
> On a different, but related, note...how difficult would it be to produce the watch with a 24hr. dial? I don't know if Miyota/Citizen produces one in either/both movements, nor do I know how it would be received by the masses (definitely a smaller audience, but also far fewer watches to choose from with this feature, especially in the price segment this would fit into), but I have been longing for a 24hr. watch (on the main register, not a sub-dial) for some time now, and I think it would be a perfect fit in this design.


----------



## Maverick223

I expected as much. I figured there was a reason for the lack of mid-priced 24hr. automatic watches in the marketplace. Thank you for investigating my ponderings.


----------



## mkws

A 24h movement wouldn't be a good idea, I think. But a GMT- why not? Although it might make the dial look a bit... overcrowded.


----------



## Nalco

Good news, the rough technicals finished, though these for 42 mm (I feel that 42 will be the optimal, but lets see) and here the lumination of hands and index. The most effective applications used. (acc. to luminova chart values, BGW9 95 % brightness, and C5 89% brightness) next step will be renders.


----------



## dspt

Great the see the progress! A few questions
- I don't see the asymmetry of lugs any more in the tech drawings. I thought the idea at some point was to have the top lug longer.
View attachment 6651722


- The second hand will keep the round-in-square marker? since other hands were redesigned, this look a bit alien right now
- about the logo. Will there be some kind of logo or other mark below 12? this part of the dial looks a bit empty right now.



Maverick223 said:


> I expected as much. I figured there was a reason for the lack of mid-priced 24hr. automatic watches in the marketplace. Thank you for investigating my ponderings.


OFFTOPIC for Maverick223 - there's a variety of Russian affordable mechanicals with 24-h dial (most are handwind but some are automatics, using Russian movements) if you are looking for options
View attachment 6749434


----------



## Nalco

Yes the lugs are symetrical, the design process goes on like this: I reflect the inspirations and ideas first on paper using fuse pen or tablet, then I put the sketches on photoshop to see the design in approximate sizes and colors(it is easy to change and make revisions is compared render programs) then if everything ok I apply to autocad or ZWcad then 3D render programs. Do not take care proportions at photoshop visuals. Now coming the 3D renders, I think these will be more realistic look before making samples.



dspt said:


> Great the see the progress! A few questions
> - I don't see the asymmetry of lugs any more in the tech drawings. I thought the idea at some point was to have the top lug longer.
> View attachment 6651722
> 
> 
> - The second hand will keep the round-in-square marker? since other hands were redesigned, this look a bit alien right now
> - about the logo. Will there be some kind of logo or other mark below 12? this part of the dial looks a bit empty right now.
> 
> OFFTOPIC for Maverick223 - there's a variety of Russian affordable mechanicals with 24-h dial (most are handwind but some are automatics, using Russian movements) if you are looking for options
> View attachment 6749434


----------



## Nalco

PS: The second hand will be revised , we have wide range of possibility.I will finalise it with the dial maker. Logo will be on renders.


----------



## Maverick223

dspt said:


> Great the see the progress! A few questions
> - I don't see the asymmetry of lugs any more in the tech drawings. I thought the idea at some point was to have the top lug longer.
> [attachment removed]
> - The second hand will keep the round-in-square marker? since other hands were redesigned, this look a bit alien right now
> - about the logo. Will there be some kind of logo or other mark below 12? this part of the dial looks a bit empty right now.
> 
> OFFTOPIC for Maverick223 - there's a variety of Russian affordable mechanicals with 24-h dial (most are handwind but some are automatics, using Russian movements) if you are looking for options [attachment removed]


-Perhaps I haven't paid enough attention, but honestly I missed that detail to begin with. What, precisely, was the reason behind the asymmetrical lugs? I don't mind it either way, but I'm just curious. BTW, they were left off of the ACAD files shown above (which I'll address in more detail below), but were retained in the artist rendering below those drawings.
-With regards to the second hand; I agree, the square looks a little funky on with the other hands. I think a triangular marker about 2-3mm from the end would look nice. Here is a nice example (though I would love the triangle a little more inboard to prevent it from obscuring the hour markers)

On the topic of 24hr. watches; I know of the Poljot watches and similar and I might even end up with one at some point in the future. My problem is that I'm not a real big fan of hand-wind movements, and there isn't a great deal to choose from with an automatic movement available. For the most part, you have to choose between a low quality Chinese movement (I'm not talking about a Sea-Gull here) or a fairly high-end watch (I really want a Breitling Navitimer Cosmonaute in an auto, Poljot made a similar watch, but it was a hand-wind as well...and only 40mm) like Glycine.


----------



## Nalco

The previous photoshop backlid was a distortion(error, not done on purpose). There is no way for a "ASSYMETRIC LUGS". At least, it will not stay on wrist in balance.No logic. You will see clear, realistic, 1:1 renders with 3D program soon. Till we did was concept improvement and we talked on fine and done things better in short time. This is the last point(with details) we are on,the 3D renders, you will see in couple of days with brand logo on, just below chevron index (I tried to make round shape second hand or spare triange pointer) :


----------



## Maverick223

The logo balance the dial well and the second hand looks much better (My preference is the triangular one shown outside of the watch, but both look better than the square one). One thing that you may want to consider is adding a signed crown...I think the logo would be perfect since it is basically the same character turned in different orientations...so adding an "m" would look good...not a big deal at all, just something to consider.


----------



## Nalco

Hi everybody, it is best to have a break just to digest the ideas, and put the things in certain and definite places. we got the pre-render lately . It was hard to imagine the overall concept in 2Ds, and I think attached below will help to understand how X1 will look when manufactured. First of all, The chapter ring we put have to be in different color, not same as the dial or dark colors, just to break the steel monotone cold looking, I changed the ring color to white. Then the second hand, runing changed to triange one. Case body stone washed or brushed, backlid platform is sandblasted remains. Maverick, I thought your concern last week for pin lugs. If possible, it will be better to get some trial manufacturing samples of solid lug backlid and open ended pin holed backlid at the same time. We can compare then, may be we can give both as option.The backlid concept will be same( backlid integrated lugs.) the thickness lowered to 12,50 from 12,77 with a thickness study(still we use Miy 8215) Pls give me your thoughts. This is pre render, more realistic will come in full set:


----------



## mkws

My thoughts are that I really like the way it looks now!


----------



## Maverick223

Agreed. It looks to be coming together nicely!

I like the idea of adding a through-holed lug design too. That makes swapping straps/bracelets much easier! That said, the original is nice too (I like NATO/Zulu style straps, and they fit the styling and purpose well).


----------



## Nalco

We completed the realistic renders. The previous flutes on case body were too thin, we will keep the 0,5mm shallow depth but width per will be 2 mm, more bold and salient.If we make them bold my concern over them as holding dirt etc will be solved too.

The original lug system with perlon braided black 22 mm strap, side look and backview.If there won't be surprise case is 42x54 mm and by sequance, option is conventinal lug system with pins, I put on sandblasted mesh strap(to match with the lug platform as it is sandblasted too) this time case is 42x52 ( 2mm shorter lug to lug) No questions in my mind.Maybe small touches and small revisions (short specs: 42x54 or 42x52 mm 316 L sand blasted and brushed/stone washed case thickness 12,5 mm, miy 8215, superluminova, 20 atm, sapphire ) next step will be sampling, I liked and enjoyed every moment of creation:


----------



## Nalco

Revisions and upgrades at drawings: Double gasket for back, using different size gaskets backlid-case & backlid-movement holder sections, adding a third one to below saphire screen possible. No way of trespassing water! (compatible to DIN 8310 and ISO 6425 requirements) X series will fight with water to last drop of their blood!


----------



## Nalco




----------



## dspt

impressive


Nalco said:


> View attachment 6989794


----------



## Nalco

I think I exagerated the WR, most divers have single gasket, but X series will have double system,we can not leave the WR issue to single gasket. If we say durability, Hydroforces will never compromise.


----------



## Maverick223

Sounds great. I know little about the design of watertight equipment (save for dams and piping systems, but that's a little different), but that makes perfect sense to me. I doubt that it would add much in the way of complexity or machining/assembling difficulty, so it should be negligible cost for the improvement, which is always a good thing!

The only suggestion that I have is to look into Fluorocarbon, henceforth referred to by the more common trademark name: Viton, O-rings (which may very well be the industry standard in watchmaking, I honestly don't know). Years ago I used to own an air compressor business and noted that in nearly every case the Viton o-rings would greatly outperform (both from the standpoint of high-pressure stress resistance as well as longevity under harsh conditions such as high-temperatures) those made out of Buna-N rubber. I specified O-rings out of that material for all of my repairs (when possible/applicable) and never had one come back due to failure of that part.


----------



## Nalco

Wow , I am happy we put the technical issues into the design. Thank you Maverick for technical info.I get my pen and notebook. Really taking notes. VITRON O rings(known FKM). and Buna -N Rubber(nitrile-known NBR).Our crown ring will be vitron but I m not sure for backlids, probably they are FKM or NBR. Gaskets made of rubber composites,and frankly every brand and model needs to be gasket renewal after a some time period, Maverick will confirm this, and as far as I know 1 to 3 years, at least must be checked if you actually dive with it, and if you care your watch)



Maverick223 said:


> Sounds great. I know little about the design of watertight equipment (save for dams and piping systems, but that's a little different), but that makes perfect sense to me. I doubt that it would add much in the way of complexity or machining/assembling difficulty, so it should be negligible cost for the improvement, which is always a good thing!
> 
> The only suggestion that I have is to look into Fluorocarbon, henceforth referred to by the more common trademark name: Viton, O-rings (which may very well be the industry standard in watchmaking, I honestly don't know). Years ago I used to own an air compressor business and noted that in nearly every case the Viton o-rings would greatly outperform (both from the standpoint of high-pressure stress resistance as well as longevity under harsh conditions such as high-temperatures) those made out of Buna-N rubber. I specified O-rings out of that material for all of my repairs (when possible/applicable) and never had one come back due to failure of that part.


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> Wow , I am happy we put the technical issues into the design. Thank you Maverick for technical info.I get my pen and notebook. Really taking notes. VITRON O rings(known FKM). and Buna -N Rubber(nitrile-known NBR).Our crown ring will be vitron but I m not sure for backlids, probably they are FKM or NBR. Gaskets made of rubber composites,and frankly every brand and model needs to be gasket renewal after a some time period, Maverick will confirm this, and as far as I know 1 to 3 years, at least must be checked if you actually dive with it, and if you care your watch)


Actually I have found that Viton and silicone (which I don't think would be suitable in this application) o-rings to last a long time if properly cared for. I doubt that a replacement would be necessary for at least a decade, probably quite a bit longer than that. UV is one of the big factors that quickly degrade seals and gaskets, which (like most o-ring applications) isn't an issue here. It's probably a good idea to test the watch every year or two if you use it whilst SCUBA diving (in which case it is both more susceptible to wear/degradation and a vital piece of equipment)...same goes for any other watch.


----------



## Nalco

Today I got the lock system screw down crown set samples. Two options: The inside threaded screw down crown(the tube inside threaded ) and tube outside threaded sets. Both SWISS made, SS. I will decide which one to use after the case samples finish.


----------



## Maverick223

I would imagine that the outside threaded tube would be a little stronger, but it shouldn't incur much stress at all, so I doubt that it would make a great deal of difference. Honestly I'm not sure which method my screw-down crown watches use (just checked the Orient Enforcer that I have on, and it happens to be outside threaded). Perhaps someone with more knowledge of and experience with screw-down crowns can chime in with a reason for one over the other (most of mine don't use a screw-down crown, I think I have 3 with it).


----------



## Nalco

Yes sure, mostly the tests of water pressure, crash and easy to loose-tighten will lead which to use. I never used inside threaded sets but lets give chance, one of the biggest pros is the gasket and thread will be inside, both will not face with dirt etc. and wear off of the threads will be in very very long term if compared outher threadd ones, the tube and body seems quite resilient and robust structure.



Maverick223 said:


> I would imagine that the outside threaded tube would be a little stronger, but it shouldn't incur much stress at all, so I doubt that it would make a great deal of difference. Honestly I'm not sure which method my screw-down crown watches use (just checked the Orient Enforcer that I have on, and it happens to be outside threaded). Perhaps someone with more knowledge of and experience with screw-down crowns can chime in with a reason for one over the other (most of mine don't use a screw-down crown, I think I have 3 with it).


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> Yes sure, mostly the tests of water pressure, crash and easy to loose-tighten will lead which to use. I never used inside threaded sets but lets give chance, one of the biggest pros is the gasket and thread will be inside, both will not face with dirt etc. and wear off of the threads will be in very very long term if compared outher threadd ones, the tube and body seems quite resilient and robust structure.


Sounds logical to me.


----------



## Nalco

The Case size poll is over.The 42 mm option hit ceiling, besides 45 mm get "0" I understand that big size, humpty dumpty cases trend is over. Slimmer, plausible size watches are prefered now. We will manufacture 42 mm of X1

I ordered the hand samples, within a week or ten days I will receive them as in design exactly. I am different to use silver laser cut or white plated SECOND HAND instead red. Also there will be option of these samples will arrive! I will share the sample hands photos as usual.

The dial drawings already finished, I will order couple of samples.

In January, the movement manufacturers mostly the miyota, announced the price increase of 20% for general. The others like Epson /TMI (seiko-citizen group) and eta,sellita side I don't know the situation, but my target price may differ like 10% ( I will share this increase half with possible X1 users) Also I am planning a limited time "pre-order" rebate to protect payers for upcoming price increases in following days.


----------



## Maverick223

I'm really excited to see the prototypes! I think you have designed a near perfect utilitarian daily-wear watch. 42mm is the perfect size in my opinion.

I think the red second hand would be the most visible and would therefore suit the utilitarian nature of the watch the best, but honestly I think the silver (or a blued hand) would look better aesthetically, so honestly I think it's a wash. I really don't think you would be doing the watch a disservice with either choice and, at least without seeing the prototypes, I haven't a strong preference either way.

Personally I'm not a big fan of Miyota (I'm more of a Seiko and even more so an Orient guy), but it's not as if they produce an inferior movement, I just think their primary competition does it a bit better (as far as I know Orient doesn't sell ebauches, but the 6R15 is an excellent movement that can be purchased in the raw if that would be in the same price bracket).

I'll likely be out of the loop for a month or so starting next week as I finish the last few hundred miles of my Appalachian Trail Thru-Hike (couldn't quite finish up last summer/fall), but I hope that the prototypes come out great and look forward to seeing them upon my return. FWIW I'll be wearing the cheap, simple, lightweight, reliable Seiko-5 SNK-xxx (whichever the olive version is) on a matching nylon NATO strap from Maratac on my expedition.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you maverick, it is great to hear see expeditors like me! I do trekking in my spare time.In every opportunity, I pack my gear and find a destination to explore.The deep clear waters, mists in forests, the wuthering sounds of silence.The nature is my fuel injection and sparkles my creativity afterwards.

I know, I like my fathers orient (44 years old, bigger then me) still running well after a haul, I am a true orient fan. For Seiko, I am complaining how nice made watches ,always a gap left like lack of screw down crown, low water resistancy, clicking rotating bezel or low lume etc etc. Only couple of dollars investment lack, makes nice watches retarded.(in most models, divers are exceptional they are full)

Every micro brand almost uses miyota 9015 , it is more expensive than 8215 but 8215 is the workhorse of miyota. Miyota movements are reliable, easy to fix, spare parts abundant movements. Especially 8215 is a WORKHORSE. Most micro divers and expediton watches running with 8215.

Next time, in your next expedition, you will be wearing Hydroforce X1 ! Then we will test it at real extreme conditions.My main aim was creating a multipurpose wristwatch like legend "Jaeger LeColtre Geographic" Minimal, reliable,authentic BUT affordable  Take care yourself at expedition my friend, especially the cracks in rocks, and slippery parts, and be far away from avalance districs.See you soon.Take care.



Maverick223 said:


> I'm really excited to see the prototypes! I think you have designed a near perfect utilitarian daily-wear watch. 42mm is the perfect size in my opinion.
> 
> I think the red second hand would be the most visible and would therefore suit the utilitarian nature of the watch the best, but honestly I think the silver (or a blued hand) would look better aesthetically, so honestly I think it's a wash. I really don't think you would be doing the watch a disservice with either choice and, at least without seeing the prototypes, I haven't a strong preference either way.
> 
> Personally I'm not a big fan of Miyota (I'm more of a Seiko and even more so an Orient guy), but it's not as if they produce an inferior movement, I just think their primary competition does it a bit better (as far as I know Orient doesn't sell ebauches, but the 6R15 is an excellent movement that can be purchased in the raw if that would be in the same price bracket).
> 
> I'll likely be out of the loop for a month or so starting next week as I finish the last few hundred miles of my Appalachian Trail Thru-Hike (couldn't quite finish up last summer/fall), but I hope that the prototypes come out great and look forward to seeing them upon my return. FWIW I'll be wearing the cheap, simple, lightweight, reliable Seiko-5 SNK-xxx (whichever the olive version is) on a matching nylon NATO strap from Maratac on my expedition.


----------



## Nalco

I checked 6R15 Seiko mov, it is available by my supplier, but price is triple of 8215. For X2 project, we can use 6R15 (ligne 12) instead 9015. For isosynchronysm, we can use swiss made eta 2824-2 elaborates or sellita SW200 's even, but this time X2s will be higher and higher in price.I do not want the watches pass USD 500 retail limit.Lets finalise X1 first.


----------



## Maverick223

I'm right there with you regarding Seiko always missing a mundane detail on most of their watches, despite the great workmanship and excellent movements (for the price). I would very much like to have the opportunity to wear an X-1 on my next waltz in the woods (which will probably be a mambo up a mountain...Denali if the plan develops as I hope), and I'm confident that it will make an extraordinary companion!

I'm really surprised that the 6R15 is that costly. While I like it more than the 8215 (or the 9015 for that matter), it is positively not three times the movement of the Miyota. As good as it is, I don't believe it's 3x as good as the 7S26 (which I believe is relatively on par with the 8215) either. The only things I dislike about Miyota movements are the inefficient rotor (they tend to be sluggish and only wind in one direction) as well as the difficulty I've had regulating them to achieve the accuracy I want. It's still a decent (and very reliable) movement, and I wouldn't hesitate to add another one to the winder.

I believe it is a smart move keeping the X-2 under $500 and this one under $350USD. I believe it will do quite well at those prices with the features, construction, and materials.


----------



## Nalco

Yes the biggest handicap of miyota automatics are the oscilator(rotor) they are dumb a kind sth. My researches showed that original Seiko movements like 6R15 not available for out brands(like ETA group do not supply high end movements to outisde) Seiko directs the manufacturers to TMI/Epson (a citizen -seiko co) the supplementary products, equivalents. There I found 6R15 equivalent but not same as it is.The price is low too, but what it means if it is not original? 6R15 or not. As I said, there will be a wide range of opportunity for X2 ( I may prefer a solar powered quartz movement also, capacitors have 30 years 80% stock life or AGTs are possible-autokinetic movements ,quartz like with charging capacitor-rotor combo)


----------



## Maverick223

I know the NH25 or NH35 (which are basically the same movements, the 35 series just having handwinding/hacking capabilities) are available as raw ebauche movements. I think they are similar to (if not the same as) the 7S26 & 4R35 respectively.

As far as the solar quartz, I like them quite a bit (though they never seem to get a great deal of wear and therefore sometimes need to be left outside in the sun to charge for a day), but I doubt that you'll get a lot of good feedback from them on here. Interestingly enough, I think that Citizen builds the best solar movement (but I have Seiko as well, and they're not a bad movement) because it tends to last a bit longer on a charge and the chronograph doesn't need to be reset after the capacitor is depleted (both of my Seikos needed the chronograph adjusted because they would no longer regulate to "0" after the capacitor was depleted).


----------



## Nalco

Yes sure I agree nh35m is the solution quite nice movement, I got a sample of it if I can find my inventory(epson/tmi branch of seiko/citizen) I have made many trials in past, here is one of prototype sample(never manufactured,subcontracted to China,and I did not liked the manufacturing style and craftsmanship of far east,you know me so far, I am very meticulous and sensitive on products.Because of that reason from now on X series and other models will be manufactured domestic or in-house) Here in it Seiko ssc017 diver solar (chronograph) movement equivalent Vs75A solar movement.It is marvellous! 1 sec or 2 deviation per month.The biggest handicap is, the watch do not like to be left in dark  you can not store it in box or drawer etc more than 6 months. I had designed it as tool watch(2 years ago) A all in one style 15 count pulsometer, tp meter, telemeter on it and 1/5 chronograph.Morse code engraved on backlid.( Ps all stainless 42 x50 , 10 atm all pushers and crown screw locked)
View attachment 7343346


----------



## Maverick223

That was the problem that I encountered with my solar watches. When I returned from an extended trip all were drained and had to be left outside to charge for a while and reset to start running (the Seiko models also required recalibrating the chronograph, which is a fairly simple procedure, but aggravating nonetheless).

P.S.: Ever since I noticed a telemeter on a Poljot a while back I have been really wanting a watch with one (though I'm sure there is a formula that would allow me to use my slide-rule bezel to calculate distance based upon visible/audible time delay, a simple scale on the dial would be easier). They're not the most practical instrument in the world (unless you are in the military and I would still think that applications would be limited), though it is a neat addition and I'm sure that I could find a use for it (like calculating lightning distance). As an engineer complications (if you can call a printed scale a complication) such as this interest me...and I usually put them to use in some capacity. That said, I have no idea what a TP meter is, can you describe it?


----------



## Nalco

Ok, let me give short descriptions of all functions and the things you can do with your watch(knowlede is nothing if you do not share it), if I am wrong pls correct:
Tachymeter: Measuring the speed of vehicle in 100 m / 100x10 m scale.Start the chrono at first sign point, and stop the chrono when vehicle pass second 100m or1000 m stone/indicator/sign etc. the reading is your km /h speed
Telemeter: Measuring the distance using sound-light travel difference.Start chrono when you see light, stop chrono when you hear the voice, the reading is the km distance between you and the source.(eg:useful for batteries/artillery using obus/cannon to describe the distance of enemy fire or the thunder distance in a storm)
Pulsometer: count 15 or 30 pulse to gain time instead 60 sec pulse reading.Start chrono hold pulsing when you count 15 or 30 stop chrono, the reading is the 60 min pulse of victim,patient etc...
TP tele product meter: Used at factories /facilities to quick calculate the efficiency and completion portion of work per minute.Dial is divided to 100 pieces in 10 increments. Start chrono when worker start to manufacture/assembly sth then stp when finished. reading is the % counter-efficiency input in 60 second terms.
Finding the northpole with your watch: on North hemisphere, direct your hour hand to sun, put a ray between 12 H and first hand then, the opposite between these two ray directs to north.Apply opposite at south hemispehere.
I do not describe the lap seconds or how the chronograph will be used, I assume everybody knows.
The E6B ruler : for basic multiplication, or division operations (at breitling relaunch models etc) some convert gallons to liter, km to mile knots etc etc. the outher circle and inner circle used for inputs. The problem is the results can be either comma digits before 0 or + digits after number.EG: Lets do 22x35 , find inner scale 10 indicating 22 on outher scale ring, find 35 at inner ring, 35 projection on outher ring can be read 770 ,division is the opposite of this application.


----------



## Maverick223

I've actually never heard of the tele product meter, but that sounds like it could be useful for many different applications (much like the slide-rule calculator). Thank you for the explanation.


----------



## Nalco

With pleasure Maverick. Hope I could be enlightening to watch lovers with this. If we turn to X1, nowadays X1 is my passion.I sleep and wake up with this model.


----------



## dspt

decimal scale (TP tele product meter) is really rare nowadays, though it was present on many nice chronos. The way I understand it, it's used when you need to convert seconds to minutes and minutes to hours (will not work with hours to days, unless you have a 24h watch) for further calculations
For example, one step takes 36 seconds, we need to know how many minutes it will take to perform 300 steps

Usual approach: 36 * 300 / 60 (last operation is needed to get from seconds to minutes)
Decimal scale approach: (36 seconds reads 60 on a decimal scale, meaning it's 60% of a minute) 0.6 * 300
So with decimal scale we have one operation less


----------



## Nalco

Hi everybody! Today the hand samples arrived.As I mentioned before , I was indifferent to put metalic or white second hand instead red( the red second hand was present in my previous high end brand, we will receive a red hand from different facility, I am waiting it) + I plan to engrave "hand made" & "Made in EU zone" expressions on backlid. This will be a distinctive indication from far east ordered cases or far east assembly of other microbrands. At last, the owners will have a hand made case microbrand watch.

View attachment 7515210
View attachment 7515226


----------



## Nalco

+ The hands lume test result: PASSED (68% lumination kept after first 18 min, here photographs taken 10 min later light source turned off)
+ The dial drawings :FINISHED & CONFIRMED (sample delivery expected in April)
+ The case drawings passed to facility to turn to 3D and prep for sampling.
View attachment 7619874
View attachment 7619890


----------



## timefan44

For some reason I can't see the pictures. ??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nalco

can see the attached(s)? if not, I will contact the moderator for the problem


----------



## timefan44

Still can't on taptalk app but I'll try on my computer 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nalco

yes timefan, I think wus started to put links instead direct images(big size ones) in while ago.I can see the images clicking on attachments at different desktops.



timefan44 said:


> Still can't on taptalk app but I'll try on my computer
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dspt

I can't see the last attachments too. Deleting and re-adding pictures helped me in some cases. Are you using some fancy image format?


----------



## Nalco

I will attach again here ,sorry for inconvenience all .jpeg but....DSPT pls inform me if they still invisible ok?


----------



## Nalco




----------



## dspt

I can see the two last images now, looks great, thanks!


----------



## timefan44

Thanks now I can see them!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Nalco

Great! The dial mould charges are paid. Dial samples will arrive at end of April if everythig goes well + I will share the case making stages here in following days. Still working on 3D and reviewing/cross checking the technical sizes for flawless action


----------



## Maverick223

Well, I made it back (I'm told I was the first to complete a thru-hike of the AT this year, something I didn't expect)...and just in time to see the new developments with the dial and hands it seems.

I see that you decided to go with white enameled minute and hour hands. I'm somewhat partial to polished silver, but the white probably gives better contrast which is never a bad feature for a dive watch, so you'll hear no complaints from me. After seeing the examples you have pictured above, I do, however believe that I would choose either red or silver for the second hand though...the white just somehow doesn't look "right". I think the red might complement the 5th intervals on the chapter ring.


----------



## Nalco

welcome back Maverick. I have not decide yet to use red or white enamel second hand. Lets receive the samples of dial first.I would like to make a contrast test with both red and white. We will go on a bit contingency here as we see, renders, paper on tests , cold-warm color applications and contrast assumptions (with pantone codes and color libraries) as per when the manufactured pieces come, every thing is set to beginning. The paper/screen and reality is a bit different. I will put the hands on dial and we will decide alltogether. Thats better and I think you will agree me.



Maverick223 said:


> Well, I made it back (I'm told I was the first to complete a thru-hike of the AT this year, something I didn't expect)...and just in time to see the new developments with the dial and hands it seems.
> 
> I see that you decided to go with white enameled minute and hour hands. I'm somewhat partial to polished silver, but the white probably gives better contrast which is never a bad feature for a dive watch, so you'll hear no complaints from me. After seeing the examples you have pictured above, I do, however believe that I would choose either red or silver for the second hand though...the white just somehow doesn't look "right". I think the red might complement the 5th intervals on the chapter ring.


----------



## Maverick223

You're right about that...looking back at that photo I can't precisely discern whether the rightmost second hand is silver or red (it actually appears to be rose gold on my screen, which I'm sure it isn't).


----------



## Nalco

Yesterday, I visited my partner "medical implant manufacturer" on 15 KM North, where the cases will be manufactured. We reviewed the drawings and transfered to 3D. A couple of touches needed but we finalised case inside part. The case will bear ILCS (integrated lug caseback system, will be patent pending) and IDGS (integrated double gasket system, will be patent pending) applications made.Hereby, at forum I also declare, both these systems are from now on intellectual property. Still a bit to go, but if everything goes well we will have a test case end of this month ( we made some upgrades on lugs, they will be conventional, but will like as suggestion at beginning of the thread. Special thanks to Maverick,dspt,mkws:


----------



## dspt

less angular shapes for the lugs too, as far as I can see


----------



## Nalco

Yes, small touches as when we get to 3D, we realised that the case and lugs appearanace besides the technology we will apply, must be "distinctive" "one of its kind" or lets say "authentic" I want the case to be UNIQUE case not resembling to other brands cases, and be recognizable from 5 m away.We trimmed the sharp angles and give sweet clean surface from beginning of case edge. For me, still roghneck, but now had a polite, graceful manner. isn't it? This Friday I will be at facility again, we will work on to get final. The partner facility engineer and technicals informed me to manufacture the cases from surgical titanium(degree 2 or 5).I know this will increase the sales prices since when all manufacturers turned to 316 or 314 L SS (DIN 4441) I insist on the 316 and 304. The titanium is nice but, it is PITA. Needs too many tungsten burrs, it can catch fire easily at process, high scrap ratio. Question is: Is it worth for lighter weight? My previous work was Ti5, and making the cases wind me up.


----------



## Nalco

I realised the lugs angular shapes previously resembles to Smiths' and Tudor North Flag.Thats why I intervened to lugs angles.Now lugs are unique I guess.



dspt said:


> less angular shapes for the lugs too, as far as I can see


----------



## Maverick223

Happy to be of some service, Nalco. It looks as if it's coming together nicely.

While I love Ti (I prefer a lighter watch) I understand your hesitation to work with it...it will flat tear up machining equipment and has just the right combination of malleability and hardness to cause all sorts of problems for manufacture. One question though, why is aluminum alloys not used for watch cases (at least that I'm aware of)? Durability concerns (due to the much softer material) I imagine? Nonetheless, with proper coatings (hard anodized finish, et cetera), I think it would be serviceable for years for all but the most abusive of consumers. I would be happy to sacrifice a little durability for a much lighter case (it is significantly lighter than titanium). It also tends to take coatings well and is very easily machined. Just something to ponder...


----------



## Nalco

Thank you. Aesthetic issues are far back now. I am glad. Yesterday I did one more visit to facility to finalise the case (chamfers/flutes alligned the sizes are checked once more) For aluminium case, well the threatment on surface of any watch is as strong as its material manufactured of. A high vickers/rohs application do not mean anything if soft aluminium case face an impact of scratch. Maybe just maybe an alloy of alumin, hardened with a technique can compete Ti... The best solution seems doing PVD,DLC (too common and abundant) or options which we have upper league something patented and unique like, Corr-ı-dur or Cerakote (ceramic) threatments on case body. I will decide one of when case finished and brushed.



Maverick223 said:


> Happy to be of some service, Nalco. It looks as if it's coming together nicely.
> 
> While I love Ti (I prefer a lighter watch) I understand your hesitation to work with it...it will flat tear up machining equipment and has just the right combination of malleability and hardness to cause all sorts of problems for manufacture. One question though, why is aluminum alloys not used for watch cases (at least that I'm aware of)? Durability concerns (due to the much softer material) I imagine? Nonetheless, with proper coatings (hard anodized finish, et cetera), I think it would be serviceable for years for all but the most abusive of consumers. I would be happy to sacrifice a little durability for a much lighter case (it is significantly lighter than titanium). It also tends to take coatings well and is very easily machined. Just something to ponder...


----------



## Nalco

Pls suggest the best colors (as only be applied on body case not the lug-backlid platform, this part will remain as sandblasted light gray) here are some applications of link here: cerakote, I do not know if all colors available domestic,we will see but lets do assumptions.


----------



## Nalco

PS: Cerakote is available in all colors, today I got the confirmation. Possible ceramic threatment for upper part I made a study as attached. Which combination will be perfect ? All pastel colors, and feels like sth tactical/military.This will be option if the cost will not rise. The case turn to very very scratch resistant.


----------



## dspt

there are plenty of aluminum watches.
Swatch had irony scubas in aluminum, with a nice matte finish. I own one







Lip Mach 2000 has very soft aluminum (here's mine abused reissue)







Soviets were using aluminum alloys for watch cases and Jean Richard had a funky anodized one







But I do think they are softer and can't take much beating.

Cerakote is a great option, but I'm not sure about colours. Besides light grey or milk white variations I guess I'd be interested to see marine blue (it's a diver, after all).


----------



## dspt

also, what will happen to the crown? will it be cerakoted too?


----------



## Maverick223

Cerakote is a fantastic coating, extremely durable while providing an even finish. I prefer the "Opaque Camo Gray" of the choices listed, but my favorite is the "H-237Q Tungsten" because it's dark enough to differentiate it from other metals yet light enough not to be mistaken for black. "H-210Q Sig Dark Gray", "H-112Q Cobalt", and "H-234Q Sniper Gray" look pretty good too. Personally I would stay away from black or silver because that would be too mundane, but also bright colors to stay true to the design/purpose/styling.

Thanks for the information, dspt. I will have to investigate those in further detail.


----------



## Nalco

as you know vitron rings in it, people informed me not to touch crown. Polished 316L remains. As where the some microns inner sizes will differ after treatment and case needs to preparedd before treatment.



dspt said:


> also, what will happen to the crown? will it be cerakoted too?


----------



## Nalco

thank you, I will try to offer wide range of options. Maverick as you say, black and silver tones are not interesting where we have wide range of option.


----------



## Nalco

+ My heart and brains says "opaque camo gray" also


----------



## Nalco

This nasty coyote looks like GLOCK pistol if we will apply opaque camo gray CERAKOTE and fixed with sandblasted mesh strap.Reversed inside curved lugs look like devilish horns. More or less,with assumtions, it will look like this with new lugs. Crazy!


----------



## dspt

I'm a bit worried there are three different colours/textures on the watch case: top, lugs, crown. Not sure how it will come together.
Also, is the dial finalized? I think the bottom writings could use some size-spacing-kerning refining
a quick sketch








also, if we are not doing the seconds hand in red, I'd skip red color on the dial too


----------



## Nalco

Don't worry dspt, all arranged and writings alligned by dial manufacturer.The dial samples will arrive end of this month (due cliche prep. and set ups) The coloring of case, well ceratkote seems option, not will be certain. The original combo of stone washed/brushed upper case and sandblasted lug-backlid still valid and we have to reach to the case and samples first. Treatments are +1 in pocket


----------



## Nalco

PS: If Jean Richard did RED-GREEN_BLUE on same watch, in sample photo you put, why we can't?



dspt said:


> I'm a bit worried there are three different colours/textures on the watch case: top, lugs, crown. Not sure how it will come together.
> Also, is the dial finalized? I think the bottom writings could use some size-spacing-kerning refining
> a quick sketch
> View attachment 7874882
> 
> 
> also, if we are not doing the seconds hand in red, I'd skip red color on the dial too


----------



## MechaMind

I think in the flat appearance/ view it would be ok, but in another view the Milanese bracelet will be far too filigran / thin for the massive case.... but wee will see!!!


----------



## Nalco

Yes I agree, we can not say anything certain when base watch is assembled. In my mind: Black Nato or Black Perlon standard , kevlar,black leather and milanese/mesh optional...


MechaMind said:


> I think in the flat appearance/ view it would be ok, but in another view the Milanese bracelet will be far too filigran / thin for the massive case.... but wee will see!!!


----------



## Nalco

Hi all, as while waiting samples of dial, we finalised the case 3D, get the data of parts ready to transfere cad/cam machines . Made some drill/cutter /burss arrangement and process flow chart.*HERE* you can see latest study.


----------



## Nalco

Spirit of watch making. MEW Hydroforce X1 dial sample bases. Needs finish,enamelling, lumination, press print, and chapter index..... we are only one week beyond the overall schedule.So far so good! I look back from beginning Jan 1,and the previous 8 months of very first concept, I see the milestones. + I share also at FB page. Very nice feedback coming from watch lovers, and other microbrand owners.


----------



## Maverick223

That's a sharp looking dial. I think it will look great after adding enamel and lume. Speaking of which...would adding tritium tubes to the double chevron (4 small tubes) be prohibitively expensive or create design challenges (due to the added height of the tubes)? It might be something to consider if not.


----------



## Nalco

Yes, hope to have a nice dial when finished. Also there will be optional dial (surprise) I will share both here when finished.
The tritium, T100 probably, needs higher budget to invest. Not all dial makers have licence to use T. In some countries also may need decleration of low radiation emitting while watch entering customs.The fine and neat application of superlume is enough I think.



Maverick223 said:


> That's a sharp looking dial. I think it will look great after adding enamel and lume. Speaking of which...would adding tritium tubes to the double chevron (4 small tubes) be prohibitively expensive or create design challenges (due to the added height of the tubes)? It might be something to consider if not.


----------



## Maverick223

I figured that might be the case. Superluminova is indeed good stuff, I wish my new Hamilton Khaki X-Patrol Auto-Chrono had it...why is it that nice Swiss watches have the worst lume?


----------



## Nalco

I like the Hamiltons.Years ago, I once intended to buy a hamilton khaki field, somehow that day I couldn't. Your auto chrono is nice watch, you know it had Valjoux 7750 a premium auto chrono by eta.For almost all chrongraphs ,lume is weak due to structure of subdials, limited dial space etc. I am lume obsessive, see my previous prototypes(not put in serial production) compared with omega seamaster po. From left to right movements ronda 512.24H, in middle, epson vsa solar chrono.











Maverick223 said:


> I figured that might be the case. Superluminova is indeed good stuff, I wish my new Hamilton Khaki X-Patrol Auto-Chrono had it...why is it that nice Swiss watches have the worst lume?


----------



## Maverick223

Wow, I love the lume on the flieger on the left. Assuming that it's in the moderately sized 40mm range (most fliegers are large for my taste) and you could pop a good auto movement in it and I would be all over that one...especially given the GMT function (or is that just a 24hr. indicator?)!

The middle one isn't bad either (hour markers are a bit difficult to discern, but hands are the important part anyway and they are crystal clear.

P.S.: My Hamilton has one of the new H-21 "in-house" movements (which is really just a Valjoux 7750 with a better mainspring giving it a longer power reserve), and I really like the watch, but on a recent red-eye flight I couldn't see the dang thing to regulate the time to the new time zone. I think the black lume (which mine has) is inferior to the standard white, but man does it look sharp in the daylight. I think I'll be going back to the tried & true Citizen AT4010-50e for bi-coastal travel henceforward (it makes time zone changes really simple and the lume is pretty good to boot...until, that is, you decide to release the aforementioned GMT flieger...that'd be the ticket right there!


----------



## Nalco

Thanks , yes the "flieger" pilot has real gmt function,42 mm and has independent 4th hand for another time zone or city(with quartz ronda 515 .24 H, I wrote wrong in my previous message, sorry).Radium colored hands&index on sunray gray dial.Maybe in future, we can adapt eta 2893-2 to the design and make it premium automatic. The middle one is the solar powered chrono one(with epson vs72a), I put photo of it in previous weeks. A tool watch with cumulated functions.Both my design and prototypes. But the main issue is Hydroforce X1. Sure, nothing will compare with it.



















Maverick223 said:


> Wow, I love the lume on the flieger on the left. Assuming that it's in the moderately sized 40mm range (most fliegers are large for my taste) and you could pop a good auto movement in it and I would be all over that one...especially given the GMT function (or is that just a 24hr. indicator?)!
> 
> The middle one isn't bad either (hour markers are a bit difficult to discern, but hands are the important part anyway and they are crystal clear.
> 
> P.S.: My Hamilton has one of the new H-21 "in-house" movements (which is really just a Valjoux 7750 with a better mainspring giving it a longer power reserve), and I really like the watch, but on a recent red-eye flight I couldn't see the dang thing to regulate the time to the new time zone. I think the black lume (which mine has) is inferior to the standard white, but man does it look sharp in the daylight. I think I'll be going back to the tried & true Citizen AT4010-50e for bi-coastal travel henceforward (it makes time zone changes really simple and the lume is pretty good to boot...until, that is, you decide to release the aforementioned GMT flieger...that'd be the ticket right there!


----------



## Maverick223

I love everything about the flieger except the size. 42mm (in a large dialed watch, such as this, which wears big) is just a little large. At any rate, keep me posted on its progress after the diver is complete. I could even deal with the quartz if the 24hr functionality was retained...I've been wanting a 24hr watch and having a GMT function just makes it that much better.


----------



## Nalco

Absolutely! We shaped the X1 here altogether, and coming models will be here first and then FB...



Maverick223 said:


> I love everything about the flieger except the size. 42mm (in a large dialed watch, such as this, which wears big) is just a little large. At any rate, keep me posted on its progress after the diver is complete. I could even deal with the quartz if the 24hr functionality was retained...I've been wanting a 24hr watch and having a GMT function just makes it that much better.


----------



## hedgehog_

I do like the watch! However the lugs look a bit disproportionate with the rest of elements


----------



## Nalco

Hi Hedgehog.Thank you. I think you have seen the very first sketches. I work first on paper and photoshop to see how the created concepts look like.There, by mistake, I made lower lug longer than upper lug first. My fault.

The very first sketches then became rafined here, since Jan 1st, evolved and matured. With great contribution of watch lovers to X1, especially the case turned to a unique design of 42x50 mm and patented innovation technologies included as ILCS & ILGS. If you have time, pls check the pages from beginning to see how it came to this point. Now, just waiting the dial samples and we are at eve of manufacturing & assembly, I here put the evolution of design from first to last(as you will appreciate, the best review will be after test sample(s) assembled, on paper or screen, visuals can be distracting):


























hedgehog_ said:


> I do like the watch! However the lugs look a bit disproportionate with the rest of elements


----------



## Maverick223

Any news or are we still awaiting dial sample (with enamel) delivery?


----------



## brandon\

I don't mean to be that guy that pisses down your leg and tells you it's raining, but...

- The hands (more so the minute hand than the hour hand) is too short.
- Hydromax is an odd name for a watch without a functional bezel.

Just my $0.02.


----------



## Nalco

We have started the case. I will share the stages here turning the cut 316L steel block to a upper case...


----------



## Nalco

Thank you:
-Hour 8 mm , min 12 mm where the index opening is 12mm radius, it is in limits(you can not put 13 mm minute hand)
-Model name is not Hydromax it is Hydroforce ,pls kindly check panerai acacia, VDB watch models without turning bezel ....many more models. We hope you to join us for next model at design stage.



brandon\ said:


> I don't mean to be that guy that pisses down your leg and tells you it's raining, but...
> 
> - The hands (more so the minute hand than the hour hand) is too short.
> - Hydromax is an odd name for a watch without a functional bezel.
> 
> Just my $0.02.


----------



## Nalco

Solid transformation. Fresh from oven, before everywhere , first at WUS f77 forum !


----------



## dspt

Nice! (though I still think the lettering on the lower part could be smaller)
Can you put the hands on the dial to see the combination together?


----------



## Maverick223

That dial and chapter ring (which needs "chapters", but I assume that's in the works) looks really sharp. The matte finish fits the style perfectly and the lume came out good as well.

I'm guessing the four holes on the periphery are for indexing the chapter ring?


----------



## Nalco

Hi! Not yet dspt because the chapter ring is missing. At subway, café, queue I see watches on wrists, and would like to see the brand and writings on dial, but too small. I look like quasimodo to see the name on dial, and it would not be proper to ask"excuse me I liked your watch, what brand /model is that" so, let the brand and etching on dial remain BIG. Get proud of name and model...

Yes Maverick, absolutely! Eveything seems as they have to be. Lume is Swiss superluminova C5. 
Applied at least 0.2 , so quite thick to glow for hours.The four holes for to fix the chapter ring, you are right. The big surprise: Soon , I will put the crude case photos(it has almost finished) and the axis cnc process videos here! I feel like recording a "watch making p..n"


----------



## Nalco

After 5 months, here is crude case figures:

making case1
making case2


----------



## Maverick223

Looking good, I'm excited to see the progress after drilling, finishing, and milling the back. Keep up the good work, *Nalco*.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you Maverick. Also, I will share the finished dials here soon. I got the photos. 
They are fantastic!



Maverick223 said:


> Looking good, I'm excited to see the progress after drilling, finishing, and milling the back. Keep up the good work, *Nalco*.


----------



## Nalco

Here are dials. My dial master prepared 2 type: with red second markers on chapter and full black second markers. Still at parcel service, I await them to recieve.


----------



## dspt

impressive height of the markers. that must be bright!


----------



## Nalco

No restriction of swiss c5 superluminova. The nicest part, MEW Hydroforce X1, will be partially hand made E.U. zone watch. I shot the case making footages by myself.



dspt said:


> impressive height of the markers. that must be bright!


----------



## Nalco

Backlid crude form shaped. Lots work to do, the angular part of lugs and shaving of back, preparing pressure channels for IDGS system, softening corners and sharp edges, brushing ......


----------



## Maverick223

The red chapter hashes look good, though I have to admit that I rather liked the black background that from the original sample had (with white or silver and red hashes). Perhaps my opinion would change after seeing it inserted into the case, but that's my initial impression. The caseback is looking good as well.


----------



## Nalco

Hi all, with melting point hot summer merged with funeral of a relative, and delay of dials, I am back 1 month of the schedule. Otherwise, all components are ready. I found time at last to check the versions.Here full white hands and silver color second hand(this matches the chapter index metallic color background).Red second hand looked like shiny little girl bicycle and I did not liked the paint application craftsmanship.I got sick when I put on to look(it will not satisfy me ), and the chapter red dashes are dim and do not match with sharp shiny thing at all.By the way red second hand loosing the contrast and easy reading structure.As result we have 2 options:


----------



## Maverick223

I'm sorry to hear about the passing of your family member. Your family is in my thoughts and prayers.

I'm indifferent given the choice between those two hand options, though I would probably prefer all silver unless that creates visibility problems.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you maverick. I lost my aunt last week.R.I.P.
Seems silver second hand with white hands. all I noted.

I'm indifferent given the choice between those two hand options, though I would probably prefer all silver unless that creates visibility problems.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Maverick223

What I was inquiring about was keeping the hour and minute hands silver too...would that create problems?


----------



## Nalco

It will loose serious time, best way to apply silver second hand and leave white hour minute hands in my opinion. I will be at facility this afternoon for cases an finish.



Maverick223 said:


> What I was inquiring about was keeping the hour and minute hands silver too...would that create problems?


----------



## dspt

I'm a tiny bit more like all-white hands when choosing between this two options.


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> It will loose serious time, best way to apply silver second hand and leave white hour minute hands in my opinion. I will be at facility this afternoon for cases an finish.


Fair enough. I don't think the white will look bad and DSPT may very well be right about the uniform color looking better. I don't think visibility will be a problem either way.

I do like the shorter second hand better, but I imagine that either color would be in that length on production models.


----------



## Nalco

Then we will assemble full white hands. No problem. I got the last shoots today, The upper case will be brushed finish and lower backlid sandblast as planned before.You see still crude form of case parts but all will be refined within a week.I left a dial sample at facility for perfect fitting and adjustments etc.


----------



## Nalco

PS: anybody heard from mkws? Long time passed.


----------



## mkws

OK, I'm back. First of all, sorry for your loss. 

Regarding the watch- I'd suggest all hands white, it'll give it the tool watch appearance in a Speedmaster sort of way. But then again, the other alternatives would look good as well. Truth be told, a plain steel second hand could be an unnecessarily dressy accent in an otherwise very sporty piece- although it wouldn't disturb the design. That said, although I'd stick to keeping all hands white, if they turn out to be part white, part polished in the final version, it'll still be good.

I wouldn't say that the red markers are too dim, at least in the pictures they don't look this way. The lume appears to offer a really decent legibility, and that's great.

The case... By Jove, the thing looks massive. Sort of like the "cone" case on 1970s Omega f300 tuning fork watches. 

Oh, and looking into the earlier pages of the thread, that's a nice flieger watch- I would only change the name to "Pilot" and give it the MEW logo like on the X1, without the winged skull (which I wouldn't mind if I were a biker), and it would be even better (just my opinion). Maaaaybe also cut "heavy duty & ops instrument" to "heavy duty instrument". ETA might no longer be available, they're cutting off the supply to manufacturers outside the Swatch Group, but maybe an ETA clone by Sellita would do.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you.Nice to hear from you again. We are half without you!

All well noted. Unanimously, all hands will be white. For logo yes, I trimmed the initial start logo and finialised to "MEW" only. Yes eta stopped some automatics supply, quartz still possible. Quartz swiss alternative "RONDA" is a good option besides. ETA do not supply premiums to outside only elabore and standards possible such as 2824-2 or some valijoux etc... Soprod is pain but sellita is ok I heard. For X2 and coming models automatic swiss movement is possible but it will be clear that price will be higher.



mkws said:


> OK, I'm back. First of all, sorry for your loss.
> 
> Regarding the watch- I'd suggest all hands white, it'll give it the tool watch appearance in a Speedmaster sort of way. But then again, the other alternatives would look good as well. Truth be told, a plain steel second hand could be an unnecessarily dressy accent in an otherwise very sporty piece- although it wouldn't disturb the design. That said, although I'd stick to keeping all hands white, if they turn out to be part white, part polished in the final version, it'll still be good.
> 
> I wouldn't say that the red markers are too dim, at least in the pictures they don't look this way. The lume appears to offer a really decent legibility, and that's great.
> 
> The case... By Jove, the thing looks massive. Sort of like the "cone" case on 1970s Omega f300 tuning fork watches.
> 
> Oh, and looking into the earlier pages of the thread, that's a nice flieger watch- I would only change the name to "Pilot" and give it the MEW logo like on the X1, without the winged skull (which I wouldn't mind if I were a biker), and it would be even better (just my opinion). Maaaaybe also cut "heavy duty & ops instrument" to "heavy duty instrument". ETA might no longer be available, they're cutting off the supply to manufacturers outside the Swatch Group, but maybe an ETA clone by Sellita would do.


----------



## Nalco




----------



## Nalco

We have did a final assemble test today. Everything seems ok and fit in case. No adjustments needed.Everything precise.
The only remaining part is backlid trim.(it will be trimmed/carved and curved shape be given) only couple of stages left for case including engravings,sandblasting,finishes ,polishes......You will see the assembled test sample and video here also the wristshots in my next entry. After 6 months over my first thread entry here it is X1:


----------



## dspt

impressive!


----------



## Nalco

Hi all. I would not share the finished backlid but the thing we have created is awesome! The technicians invented an apparatus to fix the piece on axis carver platform.The backlid thinned to 1.5mm.This is another success over rigor wave after patented ILCS & IDGS. Normally these case pieces made in mould and finished on CNC. We have made it at full CNC.Pin holes and surface finish expected...


----------



## Maverick223

It's looking great, _Nalco_! I really like the way the caseback cups the movement, that should help to reduce the clearance and make the watch less susceptible to shock. My only recommendation at this stage (and it may have been mentioned before) is to make through-holes in the lugs for the strap. I can't imagine that it would be a more difficult operation and it would make swapping straps a simpler task.

I'm looking forward to seeing your design for the back.


----------



## Nalco

Don't worry maverick. If you have seen the classic style lugs, they will be bridged with classic spring pins. The user can replace the straps between nato/leather/rubber/nylon/SS bracelet/cordura....and nice point no scratch risk at replace while using sharp edge things to loose the pins.Because the pin holes will be continious on the side of lugs. Just push with a thick needle from outside and replace the strap.Thats all!



Maverick223 said:


> It's looking great, _Nalco_! I really like the way the caseback cups the movement, that should help to reduce the clearance and make the watch less susceptible to shock. My only recommendation at this stage (and it may have been mentioned before) is to make through-holes in the lugs for the strap. I can't imagine that it would be a more difficult operation and it would make swapping straps a simpler task.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing your design for the back.


----------



## Maverick223

Smart decision, Nalco. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Nalco

Now we need only engravings and surface finishes... See the pretty bow on backlid of ergonomy for wrist curve.


----------



## Maverick223

That's a good idea. I'm sure that it's been used on other watches, but I have no idea why it's so uncommon, because it should (in theory) make the watch more comfortable.


----------



## dspt

I like what I see!
a few suggestions to consider.
- the idea of the through-holes in the lugs is great in terms of strap-changing comfort, but design-wise the holes look not very pretty, because they are placed too close to the sharp facet edge. A small change in the lugs geometry would make them look better.
- the indent for the crown might make it harder for the user to pull the crown out. I think there's a need to remove some more metal to make the use of the crown more comfortable. A few pics to make clear what I mean.


----------



## Nalco

Thank you dspt ,yes well noted:

-The distance left for pins is on purpose due to thick custom vaketa leather or rubber straps, where almost 2,5-4 mm thick.
-The crown will pop out when loosened.It will be easily handled.The crown groove depth is less than a milimeter.It is screw down. No need for carving.Also the all sharp edged including the crown groove will be softened at surface threat.The easy handle curve is added mostly at push -pull crowns.I know the tudor chrono at above sample.In case if needed we will apply carving, no doubt.


----------



## watchcrazy007

not for me


----------



## Nalco

Excited.Still working on backlid engravings. After photos, I realised that nothing better than seeing a watch in solid condition since drawings. A big trio "hurray" for contributers here...


----------



## Maverick223

It's nice to see it near complete with the crystal installed. I'm looking forward to the final result after all your hard work.


----------



## dspt

it is indeed very nice to see the watch assembled!

Have you tried to put it on the hand already?


----------



## Nalco

Let say pre-assembled. Still lots of work as backlid engrave, changing gaskets( we will exchange gaskets half size bigger),water pressure and tremble/shock resistance tests. If you ask the ergonomy check, pls see attached. I tried the case with ss bracelet and rubber 3 mm strap. The weight and balance of case is fine.You feel it, but never dusturbs you.The backlid integrated lugs and the optimum angle of lugs make fit the case on wrist. My wrist size is small to medium, but will not look small on big size wrists. A kinda polite roughneck style. Even my sister and mom ordered one when it goes on manufacturing. And, finally.the pin holes.Great ease to change straps in seconds, no scratch risk. I wish all cases had these type pin holes. I don't know. So far so good I think!


----------



## Nalco

It is all our efforts. With pleasure.



Maverick223 said:


> It's nice to see it near complete with the crystal installed. I'm looking forward to the final result after all your hard work.


----------



## Nalco

PS: I was in deep thought for hytrel I gaskets for sapp.chrystal.that will be exposed to sun dirt cold and higly for most of watches stomach pain for water resistance.The most weak part of a watch.I did a meeting today with assembler family. We decided to use UV bond instead hytrel I gaskets. Eteranal solution. applied once, durable almost forever.(If you do not broke sapphire????) I do not want to hear "my watch is leaking water inside". This will be a total solution.Need more effort but I am relieved.


----------



## Maverick223

That sounds like a novel idea to me.


----------



## mkws

Nalco said:


> PS: I was in deep thought for hytrel I gaskets for sapp.chrystal.that will be exposed to sun dirt cold and higly for most of watches stomach pain for water resistance.The most weak part of a watch.I did a meeting today with assembler family. We decided to use UV bond instead hytrel I gaskets. Eteranal solution. applied once, durable almost forever.(If you do not broke sapphire????) I do not want to hear "my watch is leaking water inside". This will be a total solution.Need more effort but I am relieved.


In other words, you want to glue the crystal in?

Sapphire is really resistant to scratches, but it is still brittle. As to leaks, gasket issues happen even to diver watches by Omega. That said, you can do your best to reduce the risk of such a situation taking place, but you cannot eliminate that risk entirely.


----------



## Maverick223

I think that's the idea. Do you have any insight on that. Personally I've only ever broken one crystal (it was, fortunately, mineral)*, so I haven't much experience with their replacement or installation (I had it replaced by my local Swiss watchmaker). As an engineer, I know that some adhesives, if properly selected and applied correctly, have exceptional strength and can be quite flexible without exhibiting creep (when the cured adhesive "runs" or moves under load; this phenomena is what led to concrete ceiling slabs becoming dislodged and impacting vehicles/motorists in the Boston "Big Dig" tunnels). Honestly the relatively inexpensive, ubiquitous Silicone RTV would probably create a perfectly adequate seal on the crystal without much worry of deterioration due to environmental elements (just make sure the surfaces that it's adhered to are free of lubricants and clean).

*EDIT: I lied...I've broken 2. I forgot about the one on an old Seiko quartz tank that I had in junior high school...it was undoubtedly mineral crystal as well, but was not repaired.


----------



## Nalco

Mineral chrystals are not so hard on Rohs scale, seiko uses Hardlex a kind of mineral but better than regular mineral, I know sapphire chrystals 9th on 10 scale. It could be "desk diver" not everybody go far beyond pool swimming but we have to catch DIN 8310 and ISO 2281 standards or go beyond.



Maverick223 said:


> I think that's the idea. Do you have any insight on that. Personally I've only ever broken one crystal (it was, fortunately, mineral)*, so I haven't much experience with their replacement or installation (I had it replaced by my local Swiss watchmaker). As an engineer, I know that some adhesives, if properly selected and applied correctly, have exceptional strength and can be quite flexible without exhibiting creep (when the cured adhesive "runs" or moves under load; this phenomena is what led to concrete ceiling slabs becoming dislodged and impacting vehicles/motorists in the Boston "Big Dig" tunnels). Honestly the relatively inexpensive, ubiquitous Silicone RTV would probably create a perfectly adequate seal on the crystal without much worry of deterioration due to environmental elements (just make sure the surfaces that it's adhered to are free of lubricants and clean).
> 
> *EDIT: I lied...I've broken 2. I forgot about the one on an old Seiko quartz tank that I had in junior high school...it was undoubtedly mineral crystal as well, but was not repaired.


----------



## Nalco

I want to make sth different and salient ob backlid that will go well with overall design. I attach the study of what we can write on backlid using photoshop(regarding the first renders). Much or less it will look like that.After lazer engravings surface will be sandblasted with thinner particules to get smooth surface,finish and erase lazer burns. Ok, new ideas welcomed! Lets share.


----------



## Maverick223

Nalco said:


> Mineral chrystals are not so hard on Rohs scale, seiko uses Hardlex a kind of mineral but better than regular mineral, I know sapphire chrystals 9th on 10 scale. It could be "desk diver" not everybody go far beyond pool swimming but we have to catch DIN 8310 and ISO 2281 standards or go beyond.


That's true, but honestly Hardlex isn't much better than regular mineral crystal as far as scratch resistance. Where it shines is the better shatter resistance (because it's tempered), though I still managed to defeat it (I think I got a scratch in it first, which really weakens tempered glass). I've heard that sapphire isn't quite as shatter resistant, but I haven't had any problems with any of my watches with a sapphire, so it can't be too great a difference.

As far as backlid designs go, I would keep it terse, only including the important information (make, model, water resistance, and maybe the movement) but add in a design of some sort. Something that is interesting, but descriptive, perhaps an image of a shark, dive flag, mask & regulator (or snorkel), diver, fish bones, or the like (located near the center, between the make/model and other information). That said, it's not that big of a deal...few people will ever see the back and those that do probably won't pay a great deal of attention to it.


----------



## Nalco

I got it.If we return to early days of concept, do you remember the pile of inspiration objects? Under the surface of seas and the up in sky thema were both elements. I plan to make engrave a basic fish figure symbolizing sea space and orbital sign for space. At last, this watch will be suitable for both extreme conditions besides being daily watch.May be too idealistic, but I will try to reach to upcoming sci fi movie director(s)/costume designers, just to ask if X1 can take place in a scene, or a face watch of movie sth. Just an idea.









Maverick223 said:


> That's true, but honestly Hardlex isn't much better than regular mineral crystal as far as scratch resistance. Where it shines is the better shatter resistance (because it's tempered), though I still managed to defeat it (I think I got a scratch in it first, which really weakens tempered glass). I've heard that sapphire isn't quite as shatter resistant, but I haven't had any problems with any of my watches with a sapphire, so it can't be too great a difference.
> 
> As far as backlid designs go, I would keep it terse, only including the important information (make, model, water resistance, and maybe the movement) but add in a design of some sort. Something that is interesting, but descriptive, perhaps an image of a shark, dive flag, mask & regulator (or snorkel), diver, fish bones, or the like (located near the center, between the make/model and other information). That said, it's not that big of a deal...few people will ever see the back and those that do probably won't pay a great deal of attention to it.


----------



## Nalco

I understand the legends of horology once more, how hard to create a watch from scratches. Today we are lucky, we can find movement etc. What if we lived 100 years ago. Still I appreciate the masters today, who manufactures the components, movements in their workshops like Philippe Dufour.


----------



## Nalco

Next week, I will do the official launch. Here is the last process engraving shots.We will do the engravings 2 microns more deeper or 5 sets more in serial manufacturing.


----------



## Nalco

I will share the results.Here is WR test.22 atm granted.


----------



## Nalco

And... the final.everything ok. Test results ok. My assembler master said that "do not change any measures" we will arrange some couple of things in manufacturing like embedding the backlid screws more into the backlid, more refined finish etc. With fine tuning the accuracy is +3 sec per day.Here is the link I shot this morning.DSPT :No carving needed for crown nest below, it pops out and set easily(see the shot). 42x50 mm case incredibly ergonomic and the thickness granted 12,20 instead 12,77


----------



## Maverick223

The final product looks great, Nalco!


----------



## Nalco

Thank you.With your help.



Maverick223 said:


> The final product looks great, Nalco!


----------



## Maverick223

Absolutely. It was my pleasure.



Nalco said:


> Thank you.With your help.


----------



## freshprince357

Definitely a cool and unique watch. I'd love to try it on even though it's not my style


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

