# Antique Zenith Pocket Watch



## mspil (Mar 31, 2007)

Having asked questions about this family heirloom watch in another forum, I was advised bu Hartmut Richter to post it on this forum. I was seeking any information available, and am grateful to Hartmut for his help. 
Inside the front cover of the watch is the number 1410027. As can be seen, there is no script at all on the face. The outer rear cover is inscribed on the inside "CWC Co", with a star and crescent moon and the words Trade Mark. The serial number 1410027 is repeated here.
The inner rear cover is inscribed, also on its inner face 
"Warranted
Crescent
25 Years" The serial number is repeated again here. The movement has the word "Zenith". The mechanism is still in working order, though it has had no attention probably for 50 years or more. The diameter of the watch body is 48mm.
I apologise for the quality of the attached images. My camera is very limited in its macro capability.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Having posted on the Vintage forum, I'll kick off the discussion here as well with the newer info (if I may - without asking too!).

The watch has no serial number on the movement. This is also indicative of a greater age. If you go to http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk, at the bottom of a long list, you'll find links to Zenith calibres. There is a PW calibre 16''' and another 18.5''' and both have movement serial numbers. The older is dated 1910 and, even though that's approximate, most if not all Zenith watches from about 1910 - 1965 which I have seen have had movement serial numbers, enabling you to get an exact date off Zenith. The lack of movement serial number confirms my earlier suspicions of the watch's age (pre-1910, possibly late 19th century).

The case serial number probably isn't worth much. I am not sure whether Zenith made or make their own cases but I am reasonably sure they didn't when that watch was made so it isn't necessarily a Zenith mark.

The overall structure is similar to the (lepine) calibre Zenith 18.5''' in Ranfft's archive - the main difference is the fine adjustment on the balance cock.

I would strongly recommend you to go to http://monsite.wanadoo.fr/zenhitsite/page4.html and compare your watch to those on that site!

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

*The case >>>*

is not original to the watch. It would be marked Zenith if it were. That is not too uncommon. As well, cases were made and saved for use, so there manufacture date, if you could find it, would most likely have no relationship to the watch. This could be true even of the case manufacturer was the watch manufacturer! These watches saw much wear and a case would wear out and be replaced. My Zenith PW has an American case as well.

It looks like Hartmut got you started on the movement questions, so let's see where it goes from there.


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

mspil said:


> Having asked questions about this family heirloom watch in another forum, I was advised bu Hartmut Richter to post it on this forum. I was seeking any information available, and am grateful to Hartmut for his help.
> Inside the front cover of the watch is the number 1410027. As can be seen, there is no script at all on the face. The outer rear cover is inscribed on the inside "CWC Co", with a star and crescent moon and the words Trade Mark. The serial number 1410027 is repeated here.
> The inner rear cover is inscribed, also on its inner face
> "Warranted
> ...


I have a pocket-watch [PW] with same case as yours, except no front cover [i.e. open face PW]. The case marks are the same. The case number is marked on rear cover + dust cover => 2570717. On the dust cover I have that "radar flash" markings?? Case looks to be 9 or 10 carat Y/gold but I cannot find any markings. I suspect is American origin.

The PW comes in a nice velevet & silk case marked inside: 
LONG, 40 Summer St., Boston. 
The PW fits snug into the velevet bedding, which makes me think that box is original.

However, the rest of the PW is different than that of MSPIL.
Dial = gold roman hours, Briguet blue-steel arms. Marked ZENITH below 12 o'clock and "swiss" below 6 o'clock.

Movement is even better:
marked => Zenith Watch Co. - 19 jewels - Prima- Swiss - 8 Adj.- fine regulator. Looks to me like cal. 135, but bigger. Works V.well. Also, SN = 2511585

I would like to know more about the case and movement. Any ideas?!
Also I would like to know how to set the watch - I get the feeling it works by opening glass cover [sholder provided for easy opening] and adjust like a ship's chrometer??

Kind regds
Jimmy


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

watchjimmy said:


> I have a pocket-watch [PW] with same case as yours, except no front cover [i.e. open face PW]. The case marks are the same. The case number is marked on rear cover + dust cover => 2570717. On the dust cover I have that "radar flash" markings?? Case looks to be 9 or 10 carat Y/gold but I cannot find any markings. I suspect is American origin.
> 
> The PW comes in a nice velevet & silk case marked inside:
> LONG, 40 Summer St., Boston.
> ...


Can't say much without pictures, I'm afraid - most significant thing is that the movement holds a serial number, which a) makes it later than that of mspil and b) means that you are strongly advised to write to Zenith about it ([email protected]), quoting that serial number so that they can give you some more details.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Can't say much without pictures, I'm afraid - most significant thing is that the movement holds a serial number, which a) makes it later than that of mspil and b) means that you are strongly advised to write to Zenith about it ([email protected]), quoting that serial number so that they can give you some more details.
> 
> Good luck and let us know what happens.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Gotta go with Hartmut on this one. Email Zenith. They may or may not take some time to respond, but the answer will give you more information than you have now.

Please keep us posted!

Dan


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Can't say much without pictures, I'm afraid - most significant thing is that the movement holds a serial number, which a) makes it later than that of mspil and b) means that you are strongly advised to write to Zenith about it ([email protected]), quoting that serial number so that they can give you some more details.
> 
> Good luck and let us know what happens.
> 
> Hartmut Richter



View attachment 51102


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Hmmm - a little blurred for a precise estimate, but I have a gut feeling that the dial style will say 1920s, if not 1930s.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hartmut Richter said:


> Hmmm - a little blurred for a precise estimate, but I have a gut feeling that the dial style will say 1920s, if not 1930s.
> 
> Hartmut Richter


Not much to disagree with that. I know that in the US, metal dials on men's watches occurred in the 30s and 40s and later. The porcelain ones are more costly to make.

Please keep us posted!

Dan


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

D N Ravenna said:


> Not much to disagree with that. I know that in the US, metal dials on men's watches occurred in the 30s and 40s and later. The porcelain ones are more costly to make.
> 
> Please keep us posted!
> 
> Dan


Yes, I tend to agree about the era of the movement => late 20's to 30's.
Have e-mailed ZENITH on the 2nd June 2007 - Supplied all the markings found on the movement and a few photos. No reply yet.

But I still have no answer to the case markings; i.e. Who is CWC Co??
What the 25 years is all about?

Also, hwo do you set the time?? Any idea on that?

Must learn how to get better photos - I have a Panasonic Lumix, model DMC-FZ1.

Will get back later,
jimmy


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

watchjimmy said:


> Also, hwo do you set the time?? Any idea on that?


What - you don't pull out the crown, just the same way you do in a wristwatch?!! Something must have got stuck!

In very old PWs, there is no crown and the thing is wound and set by a key, which you insert through two holes (one over the mainspring barrel to wind it, one entrally to set it) in the inner cover on the back. In not-quite-so-old PWs, there is a small pin on the case, next to the crown stem. You rotate the crown to wind the watch, you rotate it with pin pushed in to set the watch. Since this is a more modern PW movement (rather like the Unitas 6497/6498 or the Molnija 3603/3603), I would expect it to be operated the same way as you would a wrist watch, though.....

Hartmut Richter


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

Hartmut Richter said:


> What - you don't pull out the crown, just the same way you do in a wristwatch?!! Something must have got stuck!
> 
> In very old PWs, there is no crown and the thing is wound and set by a key, which you insert through two holes (one over the mainspring barrel to wind it, one entrally to set it) in the inner cover on the back. In not-quite-so-old PWs, there is a small pin on the case, next to the crown stem. You rotate the crown to wind the watch, you rotate it with pin pushed in to set the watch. Since this is a more modern PW movement (rather like the Unitas 6497/6498 or the Molnija 3603/3603), I would expect it to be operated the same way as you would a wrist watch, though.....
> 
> Hartmut Richter


OK chaps - here it is - fresh from ZENITH

Movement is indeed made by Zenith about Sept 1921 and was sold to American dealers which packaged the movement with own case.
Caliber 17 3/4 NVI with 19 jewels.

Have to go now but will be back.

Jimmy


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

watchjimmy said:


> OK chaps - here it is - fresh from ZENITH
> 
> Movement is indeed made by Zenith about Sept 1921 and was sold to American dealers which packaged the movement with own case.
> Caliber 17 3/4 NVI with 19 jewels.
> ...


There is more!!

Have taken additional photos which I hope will show the beauty of this movement.;-)


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

That is very nice. I am jealous! Thanks for sharing!

Dan


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## watchjimmy (Jun 2, 2007)

D N Ravenna said:


> That is very nice. I am jealous! Thanks for sharing!
> 
> Dan


Hello Chaps,

I need your expertise again, about the old PW.

The case I found out is G/Filled and I have a feeling not original.
My question to you fellows is:
What size of case will fit that movement?? Any Zenith case from the 1920"s will do? Only open face case will work?









Pls let me have your input.
TKS

jimmy


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

What makes you think that the case isn't original? That there are some other maker's hallmarks on it?! I am not aware of Zenith having made their own cases (even these days, I believe that they buy cases, dials, crowns and hands in before assembly) so it would be bound to have other maker's hallmarks. The fact that it is gold filled, not 18k? Even up to the nineties, Zenith not only made 18k watches but also gold plated (=filled) watches. Also some PWs in silver. Or are there definite indications that you have a "mariage" (="Frankenwatch") - e.g. loose movement, bits filed away here or here?!!?

If you really want to get another case, the answer to your question would just be that it has to be at least the size of the movement, that it has to have the holes (e.g. for the winding stem) in the right place, that it has to hold the dial (otherwise you can replace that too - making sure that THAT fits the movement!!) and that, if it is suddenly bigger than the old one, you will need a movement holder of sorts to fit the gap. On the whole, on the basis of the evidence so far, I'd stick with what you've got.....

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Hartmut put some good things in his post. I'll add a few of my own.

There are Zenith marked cases, but not all Zenith pocket watches came in them. In America, one would typically pick out their pocket watch movement and the case separately. That allowed the customer to "customize" their purchase. As best as I can tell, Zenith movements would fit in American cases, you just had to know the correct size.

Also, you can put a movement made for a hard case in an open face case, but it does not work well to do the opposite. It is not that you can't, it just ends up looking odd.

It is hard to tell if a case is original to the watch. The most sure way is to look on the back side where the screws go in. The two screws that hold the movement to the case will leave a mark on the case. If you see marks elsewhere on that part of the case (like another movement was in there with screw holes in different places), the case is not likely to be original.

Hope that all makes sense!

Dan


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