# The SELLITA SW200 vs ETA 2824 thread



## enricodepaoli

Since this issue has been boiling the waters around here recently, I decided to post to articles I have just found from "aBlogtoRead"

ARTICLE 1

Lots of people are starting to notice that watch makers are starting to indicate the movement of a watch as "Swiss Movement." For most of us, such an ambiguous designation is unacceptable, as this can mean just about anything. Strictly speaking, for a watch or movement to legally have the "Swiss Made" designation upon it, the watch or movement does not have to be made or assembled completely in Switzerland. In fact, only a certain percentage of the components must be made in Switzerland, and the watch does not need to be put together in Switzerland.
Regardless, of the circumstances where you see "Swiss Movement," this means essentially one thing, the movement in the watch is going to be either an ETA or Sellita movement. Ablogtoread.com wrote an article regarding Sellita's presence here. Occasionally there are other potential makers, but this is rare. So you ask yourself, "I don't know what movement I am getting? What am I even paying for?" This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, but consider this. Lets say ETA are the "name brand" movements, and the Sellita movements are the "generic brand." Each is identical in construction and function. Small differences might lay in the quality of manufacture, and special modifications for the manufacturers, but for the most part, the movements function the same, and have similar accuracy and reliability.
Sellita is a Swiss movement manufacturer and for the most part copies ETA movements. It does this because it has the machinery capable of such work, along with the fact that the ETA designs are old enough to likely no longer be protected under any Patent rights. For this reason Sellita can make copies of ETA movements just like drug companies can make generic drugs after a period of time.
Having said that, when you see the Sellita SW200 movement in a watch, it is the same movement as an ETA 2824-2. The reason watch makers are using Sellita movements, is not so much about cost, but more having to do with the fact that ETA is slowing down production and will cease to provide movements to watch makers outside the Swatch Group in 2010. So because ETA movements are harder to get, watch makers will use an ETA or Sellita movement depending on what they are able to acquire in time to put the watches together.
Fear not the Sellita movements as they appear to be just as good as ETA. The true test will come in a few years, but know that the parts are the same, and ETA parts will fit into Sellita movements to the best of my knowledge. Despite this, some people are still all about having an ETA movement, you can rest assured that most watch makers are complete sticklers for quality, and would not use any movement that would do their name injustice.


ARTICLE 2

Most watches companies do not make their own movements. Quality watch makers buy their movements from mostly ETA, the quasi-government owned movement powerhouse. In 2010 however, ETA will stop selling its movements to outside companies. It will continue to provide movements for it's house brands, of which there are several. ETA is part of the Swatch Group which makes a number of brands as seen in the link. When ETA stops providing movements to out-side brands, they will have to go elsewhere for movements.
Sellita is a growing movement maker in Switzerland, but has had a bit of a copycat history. They mostly copied ETA movements. Can they do this? Well, probably, at least in the US. Most ETA movements have been around for a while and in the US Patents last for 20 years only. Because movements are machines, they only intellectual property protection they would have is a patent, and presumably the European patent laws are similar to those of the US. Take the ETA 2824-2 movement, which has been around since the 1970s. Because over 20 years has passed since the, copycats are free to make the movements, the only barrier would be technology. Meaning Sellit and other movement makers would have to have the proper machinery to produce the delicate movement parts. China on the other hand would never even think to check on infringing intellectual property rights before copying something.
We can assume that Sellita has such technology because large brands such as Invicta have been buying from them at large for years. It is predicted that Sellita will step in ETA's shoes and start providing movements on a mass scale in the next few years. Right now, Sellita has a reputation for being a bit lower quality, but that will change in the coming years with high production, and consumer demand. We shall wait and see what role Sellita has in the next few years.


----------



## FlyPenFly

Some of this is factually wrong and I've communicated with Ariel Adams about this issue.

ETA is stopping shipment of ebauches, not complete movements. I expect in a few years it's more likely they'll completely stop movement exports outside of the Swatch group but probably not until there are more Soprods and Setilla expands its production lines.

While a Setilla movement is probably very good, if given the choice between a Setilla and an ETA or even a higher end Made in Japan Seiko movement, Setilla would be my last choice.


----------



## toloen

and can you tell us why please?:think:


----------



## FlyPenFly

Swiss made ETA movements are the finest most tested movements under $500. They have a long history of quality and consistency. Seiko Japanese made movements is a close second in terms of reliably delivering movements of a high quality. Setilla is probably very good as well but so far hasn't had the history to back it up and it's unclear if their QC process is as thorough as ETA or Seiko since they're still relatively new and not in as wide adoption.

I certainly wouldn't refuse to buy a watch with a Setilla movement but the price better reflect it. If I were given the option to choose a watch at the exact same price with the exact same design but the only difference being movement, my choice would be:

1. Soprod A-10
2. Swiss ETA
3. Japan Seiko
4. Swiss Setilla


----------



## h2xmark

ETA use to sends movements to Sellita for extra finish work in the past, such as pearling and decorating movement, Sellita got into the movement building part in 2003 with there first movement the sw200, almost a copy of the 2824, they also have the sw220 , sw240 [day/date wheel] they also have the sw300 and the sw500 automatic chronograph. Stellita opened in the 1950's and has been a very successful business. Some people refuse to accept that they make a excellent product, but some people still think the world is flat. lol


----------



## FlyPenFly

We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.

Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.


----------



## Redrum

What is the difference between the ETA and the Soprod?
I know that Ball uses the Soprod in the EHCIII.

Take care

RR


----------



## h2xmark

FlyPenFly said:


> We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.
> 
> Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.


You might be right about that for now, but i think that watch company's[ not swatch] will start using Sellita a lot more in the future, and they will continue to expand, I think there product will continue to improve and more people will accept them as maybe an equal ;-)


----------



## Ray916MN

Is there any proof that an ETA 2824 is superior to an SW200 in terms of reliability, accuracy or resistance to shock? 

I'd be a bit surprised if the 2824 was superior and wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true. 

The Sellita is a more modern rendition of the movement, made using recent manufacturing techniques, processes and machinery, and the refinement that is possible when you can study something that has a long production history instead of starting from scratch.

What is clear to me is that Sellita and the SW200 has less marketing value, than ETA and the venerable 2824. I would be very surprised if the superior marketing value isn't one of the principle drivers for the selection of the 2824 over the SW200. 

Of course, the ugly truth of watches, as with all luxury goods, is that marketing value is probably more important than any other product content.


----------



## wilfreb

i really dont care what movt is inside a timepiece, as long as it is from a reputable watchmaker that puts their watches to a battery of quality tests.


----------



## nm4710

wilfreb said:


> i really dont care what movt is inside a timepiece, as long as it is from a reputable watchmaker that puts their watches to a battery of quality tests.


Bingo. If Tag puts it in there it's probably very well made. There are so many movement snobs on these forums it's amazing. I can understand paying more for a manufacture movement if it offers better performance (ie significantly better power reserve, additional complications, perhaps even better aesthetics)...but other than that if the movement is accurate and reliable the manufacturer of the movement doesn't make a huge difference to me. I think it's hilarious when people get obsessed over slight differences in movements - esp those behind a steel caseback anyway.

My guess is the Sellita is just as good as an ETA. And that's coming from someone who owns at least 5 ETA-driven watches.

NM


----------



## enricodepaoli

I am no expert, but I'd say even the so called manufactures outsource a lot of parts to their watches.


----------



## Eeeb

enricodepaoli said:


> I am no expert, but I'd say even the so called manufactures outsource a lot of parts to their watches.


Dr. Ranfft said Roamer made every part in its movements (down to the screws!) but they were a rare bird for doing so...


----------



## publandlord

FlyPenFly said:


> We can continue to talk in circles about it but I'll just cut to the chase.
> 
> Companies use Sellita when they can't get a hold of an ETA or a Soprod is too expensive.


The Swiss watch industry is one of the most conservative in the world so it would take a century to wean them off their current suppliers no matter how superior the competition.

BTW Sellita is a subcontractor for ETA. An ETA movement from ETA with ETA on it might have been made by Sellita.


----------



## Mychronos

My invicta 9937 has a sellita sw200, its running -3sec/day so far for 1 month now,,awesome watch for just $220 you cant beat that...



publandlord said:


> The Swiss watch industry is one of the most conservative in the world so it would take a century to wean them off their current suppliers no matter how superior the competition.
> 
> BTW Sellita is a subcontractor for ETA. An ETA movement from ETA with ETA on it might have been made by Sellita.


----------



## maxroch

There has been too much emphasis on the watch movement. Of course it is important to have a high quality Swiss movement ticking inside your timepiece, especially if the movement is visible through the exhibition back or even the skeletal front. However, whether or not we want to admit it, a man's watch is not so much of of a functional tool but more of an item of jewelry. Anyone can buy an expensive quartz and be happy with the superior accuracy of its time-keeping function. When we shell out hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a micromechanical engine encased in an exquisite design, it is more about art and beauty. Wearing a mechanical watch, automatic or otherwise, is about making a statement. And it would be a weak statement if the watch case, band or bracelet, material, design, and workmanship are not reflecting the statement we want to make. Except for the watch aficionado community, most people would be lost on the intricacies of movement history and minor variations between one calibre and another. At the end, as long as you have a quality movement ticking inside the watch case, it is all about how the looks and feel of the complete timepiece appeal to you and others, IMHO.


----------



## 78finn

I work in Design/Engineering for manufacture and have a close friend that worked for ETA up until very recently.

Sellita are not Swiss or even based in Switzerland. They are a Chinese company that manufactures components & assembles Swiss movements. There biggest single client is ETA.

The Sellita Sw200 & ETA 2824 are almost 100% identical in aesthetic / engineering & function. The accuracy test underline this fact 100% - there is vurtually no difference of any measurable significance. Just because you have an ETA movement, supplied by ETA, with 'ETA' etched onto it does not mean that some or all of the components have been made or assembled else where.

Most of the opinions on here regarding this matter are really lacking in any technical knowledge or real understanding of how these company's operate in a commercial manufacturing sense.

I get the impression that there is a bit of snobbery connected to a movement being from ETA...because its an older, more established brand and most importantly, not based in China. This is fair enough if you are purist and insist in a 100% Swiss made watch. The very fact that ETA buy huge QTY's of parts from Sellita to populate there 2824 is an endorsement of the quality that Sellita is able to supply.

Oris now supply the majority of there diver range with Sellita movements - which in my opinion are the best Divers under $2K. Omega have Sellita manufacturing various components for there watches also.

People should also understand that even a watch manufacturer that states '100% Swiss' is still able to purchase or have third party companies based outside of Switzerland manufacture and supply them parts. most countries will allow this kind of statement if more than 60-70 of th product is either manufactured or assembled onshore. I just finished a product (admittedly not a watch) for a company that was manufactured 100% in China, but then shipped to Australia for assembly and sales. It has the green 'Australia Made' tag proudly embossed on in packaging. 

Unless you are paying serious dollars for a small/limited production run (50-100) Swiss high end watch, the chances are that some if not a great many of the components tht make up your watch have come from somewhere outside of Switzerland i.e. China, Japan, Malaysia etc.

The simple fact is that the SW200 and 2824 are 99.9% identical in every respect other than there names.


----------



## selfwind

Yesterday I opened up a SW200 for to be regulated. FYI it was a 2010 Aquaracer 300 (WAN2111.BA0822). I noticed the movement retainer ring was plastic which I guess is a sign of the times even in a $2100 watch! The movement finish was average but not rough by any means.

The conventional wisdom has been that one mark on the regulator on a ETA 2824-2 is 5-6 seconds. The owner wanted 1 shot at regulation, replace the back and hope for the best. Since I don't own a Greiner timing machine, I agreed. The watch was gaining 5-6 second per 24 hours so I moved the regulator exactly one mark. 

After 2 days the owner says it is now +/- 1 second per 24 and cannot be happier. Sometimes you just luck out! I really don't have any complaints with the SW200 since its performance seems identical to the ETA. If you own a SW200 you can also tell people "Well I have one more jewel than your ETA 2824-2!"


----------



## calibre 11

Interesting post and I agree with most of your points. Yes, they do a lot for ETA, yes, they have made ETA movements that are branded ETA and yes, they're for all purposes the same (extra jewel here and there)

Not sure where you got your info on Sellita's ownership though. I haven't been out to see them, but have talked with them at their head office in La Chaux-des-Fonds (home of TAG Heuer). The company is owned by a Spaniard- Miguel Garcia. You can check the ownership here:

Proprietor Sellita Watch Co S.A. - Commercial register and company data
Proprietor Sellita Holding SA - Commercial register and company data

What makes you say that they are a Chinese company?

David


----------



## tpd80

selfwind said:


> Yesterday I opened up a SW200 for to be regulated. FYI it was a 2010 Aquaracer 300 (WAN2111.BA0822). I noticed the movement retainer ring was plastic which I guess is a sign of the times even in a $2100 watch! The movement finish was average but not rough by any means.
> 
> The conventional wisdom has been that one mark on the regulator on a ETA 2824-2 is 5-6 seconds. The owner wanted 1 shot at regulation, replace the back and hope for the best. Since I don't own a Greiner timing machine, I agreed. The watch was gaining 5-6 second per 24 hours so I moved the regulator exactly one mark.
> 
> After 2 days the owner says it is now +/- 1 second per 24 and cannot be happier. Sometimes you just luck out! I really don't have any complaints with the SW200 since its performance seems identical to the ETA. If you own a SW200 you can also tell people "Well I have one more jewel than your ETA 2824-2!"


My sw200 was running +24s a day and I was able to regulate it to +2s per day on the first try.

I like to regulate it and let it run overnight crown up (slowest position) until i get -1 or -2s in that position then on my wrist it seems to get very accurate time.

I too was shocked to see a black plastic movement ring in my LINK with an eta2895. My fraction of the price Deep Blue has a pretty metal ring even. I realize plastic probably does the job just fine and keeps the weight down but its nice to see the better quality materials. I also like more weight to my watches.

*update: results are in from my deepblue eta2824 regulation and using my method mentioned above my deep blue went from +20spd to running +0s over 24 hours crown-up(slowest position) and +1s over 12 hours dial-up (fastest position). I expect to get somewhere between 0s to +2s per day accuracy.

**Update 2: its been 24 hours and the freshly regualted watch is running 0s/day. I keep checking the minute hand to see if its correct because i cant believe its doing 0spd.

Anyway i guess my point is either sw200 or eta2824 are capable of great time keeping. Im proud to own both.


----------



## vanilla.coffee

Accuracy of my SW200 equipped Carrera Cal 5










Performing faultlessly and accurately.


----------



## Der Biermeister

Good stuff in this thread -- I have learned a lot. I own a SW200 watch (about 1 1/2 years old) that is losing approx 40 secs a day. I am going to get it regulated. I have read where the regulation shouldn't cost more than $15-20. Is this about right?


----------



## tpd80

sounds about right. some times its done for free if your lucky and have a cool watch maker.

Also, if your losing that much time the watch may need a cleaning. I know you said its 1 1/2 years old so it shouldn't need one but you never know.


----------



## Rogi

If I had the choice I'd go ETA, Selitta is nice and I probobly have it in my Aquaracer but I'd prefer a ETA just like I'd prefer a Lambo. Engine inside a Lambo instead of a Audi Engine inside a Lambo I'd be disapointed if they started making Omegas with Selittas, because they own the rights to the ETA line (it won't happen just saying ) 

Just like I'd rather Swiss Made over a Swiss movement or Japan Made vs Japan Movement. If I wanted to buy a product that wasn't manufactured fully in those countrys (or whatever it takes to be called "Swiss made" etc) I'd stop buying Swiss Made, Japan Made (Seikos, Tags, Omegas etc) and go buy a Cheapo Digital Chinese, Taiwanese, Philipino etc watch from Walmart tells time, is cheaper and sucks the passion out of collecting.

Watch collecting is a passion and companies to attract more customers and make more profit in reaching out to every walk of life, are going from the "exclusive" to the "reguler" in terms of pricing, 

ok so you can't afford the "Japan Made" Model for 50 bucks more and it doesn't mean anything to you so go buy the Japan Movement Seiko cased in where ever that isn't Japan. Cause the watch lady in the department store that has no idea about watches tells you its still "Japanese" Its just two words in watch collecting but there important, your buying the watch cause you enjoy it and it gives you pleasure and stupid stuff like Japan Made, make or break a deal in some people's eyes.

Japan Made, Swiss Made means a lot to me, would I pay a premium for it (a couple $$ more) yes, but to a point. Just like I'd pay more for other brands than others, same with movements. If you had a ETA and a Selitta watch (same brand power, same Swiss Made, same quality, same price) Then I'd go ETA, mostly cause your stuck on a good thing that you know is good. 

Its the same in scale modeling, we have like modeling glue we've been buying for ever (some formulas that even date back to the start of modeling round the 50s) because people like what works first for them and they'd rather not take a risk on a unknown. Until something goes wrong with your original formula or through word of mouth and maybe a test run with the new item, you take a shot.


----------



## katobayker

I have owned a Schaumburg AQM II for a month now. I think it has a Selitta/SW-something.......(would love to know exactly, not Cosc ver.)

Set it to the Colorado atomic clock to the second a month ago..... Checked it this morning and it is 2 seconds off. Call it perfect for my active lifestyle self winding-wise or what? ....but I'm pretty impressed........


----------



## Wisconsin Proud

Rogi said:


> Japan Made, Swiss Made means a lot to me, would I pay a premium for it (a couple $$ more) yes, but to a point. Just like I'd pay more for other brands than others, same with movements. If you had a ETA and a Selitta watch (same brand power, same Swiss Made, same quality, same price) Then I'd go ETA, mostly cause your stuck on a good thing that you know is good.


I had to read your full post three times and I'm still not sure what you are saying.

But the above portion has me confused. ETA is part of a larger company contolled by Swatch. That makes it larger, not better.

I currently have 3 automatic watches: 2 SW200 and 1 ETA. The ETA is a 2834 day/date Maurice LaCroix. Visually it has a bit more decoration but functionally is not as accurate as my TAG Aquaracer (SW200) or my Accutron Kirkwood (SW200).

These movements are so close to being identical they are virtually the same.

Staying with good because you know it's good just seems silly in this comparison


----------



## Eeeb

I bet in the intervening 8 months the poster you quote has wondered into Swatch Land... :-d


----------



## waldoh

Chinese Swiss movement, I haven't warmed up to the whole idea of Sellita yet.


----------



## Eeeb

waldoh said:


> Chinese Swiss movement, I haven't warmed up to the whole idea of Sellita yet.


Ohhh, Chinese Swiss! Hummmmm..... well, this is the Internet so it must be true!


----------



## enricodepaoli

Eeeb said:


> Ohhh, Chinese Swiss! Hummmmm..... well, this is the Internet so it must be true!


kkkkkkkk


----------



## calibre 11

Yes, I never got a reply on the "China" claim. I wonder if he was thinking of Soprod, which was Hong Kong owned until 2008?


----------



## waldoh

Eeeb said:


> Ohhh, Chinese Swiss! Hummmmm..... well, this is the Internet so it must be true!


This is Sellita: We have been making parts for ETA for years. We have all the equipment and manufacturing know how to build our own movements. Lets hire someone to engineer some new movements... Wait ETA's patents have run out... Lets just copy them and stick an extra jewel somewhere unneeded, Brilliant!

So again, Swiss movements with a Chinese methodology.


----------



## enricodepaoli

Chinese methodology would include more copy than know-how


----------



## Eeeb

waldoh said:


> This is Sellita: We have been making parts for ETA for years. We have all the equipment and manufacturing know how to build our own movements. Lets hire someone to engineer some new movements... Wait ETA's patents have run out... Lets just copy them and stick an extra jewel somewhere unneeded, Brilliant!
> 
> So again, Swiss movements with a Chinese methodology.


No, the Swiss pioneered "the patents have expired -- let's make a similar movement!"... They have been doing it since the 1930s at least. The most vivid recent example I know of is the Seiko Spring Drive -- not introduced until the Swiss HPM patents expired.

The history of movements is mostly a history of evolution from previous designs...


----------



## drunken monkey

Wait, so you are now changing your original claim that Sellita was Chinese to it simply being that Sellita copy like the Chinese.

Right, so what about that Steinhart Ocean 1 in your signature then?
Because that is in no way a copy of a Submariner, is it?

If I used smilies, here's where I'd roll my eyes.


----------



## tewkewl

Mychronos said:


> My invicta 9937 has a sellita sw200, its running -3sec/day so far for 1 month now,,awesome watch for just $220 you cant beat that...


For me, the fact that this movement is used by Invicta is a detriment and not a selling point. Invicta is the, well, Invicta of watches... in the same way that Walmart is the Invicta of retailers... or Yugo is the Invicta of cars... or Coby is the Invicta of electronics.:-d


----------



## Eeeb

Invicta bashing should be beneath the TAGHeuer Crew! It is not nice to pick on the lame and crippled...


----------



## gastubesgalore

I been wearing an SW 200 on my wrist 6 weeks removing it only to shower or to clean the watch with dish soap and an old tooth brush. I just looked when I sync'd (37 days ago) I'm -5 seconds since then. I have a good size pocket watch collection and always kept logs on their performance. My curiosity was killing me. I try to steer clear of Chinese junk myself. I am very hapy with my SW200. I'm wearing an Invicta Grand Diver 6619 Tritium, #319, Sellita SW200, with a Wachadoo Bracelet. I highly doubt its adjusted to temperature and 6 positions like a high quality pocket but it sure keeps time. I have not worn any of my Seiko Mechanicals and sold all of my Deep Blues with Miyota 8215s. Call me a cheep sob but I dont believe in spending thousands on a watch. My ETA 2824-2 in my Laco don't run that tight. So I'm curious. What's the final answer on Sellita and being Chinese?


----------



## gastubesgalore

I agree with the Invicta remark and this is the only Invicta I have however......I must pick back on the big money....Does seem mine works as good as yours do and my wallet remains thick! You TAG SNOBS can send me one of yours with the SAME MOVEMENT any time LOL! I paid a minuscule $175 for mine its got REAL read me in the dark ability with tritium and its accurate. IT IS OF COURSE my beater or daily wear. Change oil, chop wood any and all activities where the high dollar watch would cringe......Pickin' on the Invicta "UNDERDOG" 

Sellita SW 200 gets A+ in my book! 

I can't speak for anyone else but this has me disturbed. I simply don't do Chinese knowingly. If the SW 200 is "MIC" it is getting sold.


----------



## Eeeb

Parts of the world that are accumulating surplus money and have an active industry in some sector commonly buy suppliers in other parts of the world. India bought Jaguar from the Americans, for example. It is the way of capitalism. (Zenith Radio in Chicago once bought the Swiss watch maker Zenith just because of the name... strange.)

I have no knowledge of Stella's current ownership. I could delve into search engines and see what I could find. But I am fairly sure it will have no effect on their products. So I personally am not that interested. The Swatch Group has assured Stella's survival no matter what their ownership.


----------



## BathysHawaii

I want to jump in here. I own Bathys Hawaii and we've used both ETA movements and Sellita movements extensively. Hundreds of each. They are basically equal in every way. I would say the anti-shock on the ETA is better and the Sellita tend to have a better rate. 
This is literally a Ford vs Chevy thing. 
Or Coke vs Pepsi. 
Amsoil vs Mobil. 
Bridgestone vs. Michelin. 
Apple vs Windows. 
Army vs Navy vs Air Force vs Marines
Bears vs Packers
Collingwood vs Carlton
quartz vs mechanical
Ferrari vs Lamborghini
and I could go on and on...

However now ETA has restricted access to movements - and even spare parts have become very hard to get for ETA pieces. Watchmakers are freaking out. 
ETA, as part of the Swatch Group is unquestionably moving the "Swiss Made" automatic movement WAAY upscale as they start to see less men wearing watches in the future. When I go to Baselworld I can walk right into the booth of Selitta and make an appointment and meet with the President Mssr. Garcia and he is affable and helpful. Even getting an appointment with ETA at the Basel Fair when you're a small-time player like Bathys Hawaii is not possible. My Swiss partners can and do have meetings; but no one will take time to speak to me personally. That's fine. I eat a few chocolates, ogle their hired model/hostesses and I'm out. 
I look back at Ariel's initial post and he was spot on. 
Making automatic movements that WORK is hard stuff. I give props to both ETA and Sellita as they both do great work. The ETA 2892-2 we used in the Benthic Pro Diver is sweet - no doubt! This is simply a business decision by Swatch Group - nothing more. 
As we wean off of the ETA teat, please have some kindness for Sellita - I know them personally and they have the 'average watch lover's' interest at heart. I support them fully and I hope the WUS community will too. I'm not trying to make it a good guy/bad guy thing - I think most Swatch brands will move more upscale (except Hamilton) - and Sellita will step in and largely take up production for the non-Swatch group brands. Just different strokes for different blokes.

(I note that back in 2010 when this thread began the word here was that is was _<<seulement ebauche>>_, but it was around that time that those of us in the industry heard it was going to be movements as well - which is what it has become now._ C'est la vie_.)


----------



## Wisconsin Proud

Good info, Bathys.

what I dont understand is that when I pick up a magazine and see "new" brands (or on TZ where Jorge lists new watch brands), some of these new brands are using ETA/Valjoux movements.

Why is it that established brands are being forced out yet new brands have access? Is this because the new brands had orders for a few years back and locked in orders?

In a matter of a few years, the shakeup will sort itself out. I assume Sellita will pick up as much slack as possible but the Japanese movement brands will have many more clients at their doors.

In closing, I think many people will begin to buy watches with Japanese movements, realizing "hey, these arent so bad afterall" and because the cost of swiss made movements will continue to skyrocket and make some watches unaffordable to many.


----------



## BarracksSi

Just wanted to chime in and congratulate everyone on making this thread easier to find in a search by including various misspellings of "Sellita".


----------



## CM HUNTER

China always comes up when a tried and true, fan-worthy brand with a following like ETA has true competition whose product is every bit as good, if not better (certainly quieter) than they are. Being that Sellita supplies ETA and always has, then that means ETA is every bit as Chinese as Sellita. More fact than fiction though is, neither one is Chinese and the ETA faithful just throws China into the mix because they have nothing else in the way of facts to convince you that ETA is superior to Sellita. Again though, if one is then the other is in this case, so the China connection against Sellita doesn't hold any weight. ETA, Soprod, and Sellita all have production facilities in Switzerland... that's a fact, and the only one that has any merit to me. So, any other speculation that any of these companies produce their movements (or even a certain amount of their parts) anywhere else is just that... speculation. Nothing more.


----------



## Eeeb

I don't think ETA cares what people think... like The Phone Company before the antitrust breakup (in the US), they are a monopoly (for Swatch companies) and they don't have to care. Their market is captive. They are a cost center, not a company.

... and therein lies the seed of their probable decline.


----------



## chas1133

So the Eterna Kon Tiki's using this....any breakdowns or issues known..? This is a few years past the OP.


----------



## HoustonReal

I saw an article from last year that tested the Sellita SW200 against the ETA 2824-2. The Sellitta was more accurate in every position, easily qualifying for chronometer status. The hair spring in the SW200 is thinner.

I'm sure there are a number of watch snobs that will continue to prefer the ETA movement because of it's history an association with Omega, but the Sellita is objectively as good or better.

*Clone Wars: Sellita SW200 Vs. ETA 2824 | Watch Flipr - Expert Wristwatch Blog*


----------



## Rallyfan13

(I can't quite come to terms with the reasoning people are using to associate Sellita with... China. Is it a complete misunderstanding of geography? Is it some sort of insecurity or trauma?)

Anyway: I'm in no position to know what happens to Chinese copies of relatively famous watches that are seized by customs in a country that has a proud history (the name escapes me). I'm also in no position to know how many of those watches aren't destroyed or sent back to China. I've no idea how many end up in the private collections of civil servants and how many of those civil servants open up the watches and examine what's inside to get a feel for the quality of the copy.

_I therefore cannot know that the actual Chinese copies of Sellita SW200 exceed in quality the actual Chinese copies of the ETA 2824-2 routinely. _

Could the quality of fakes correlate directly to the quality of the originals? I don't know. Anything.

For what it's worth I don't see much difference between an brand selecting an ETA or a Sellita -- or a Seiko.

In this I'm in good company; TAG see little difference also from what history has shown.


----------



## khaled_

Question is, how to know which movement is in the watch? 

Thanks


----------



## Rdenney

khaled_ said:


> Question is, how to know which movement is in the watch?
> 
> Thanks


If it has a display back, look at the stamping under the balance wheel. The interlocking-L Sellita logo and the caliber number will appear there, or the ETA shield logo and their caliber number. I recently added a Movado Museum Watch to my collection, and that was was originally supplied with an ETA 2892. The the one I bought had an SW300, which I was able to confirm with a 10x loupe and five seconds of getting the light to shine into the movement usefully.

But the SW300 also has a differently shaped rotor and a smaller rotor bearing track, so now that I know what it looks like, it's recognizable at a glance just the same as the 2892.

Rick "who'd still like to see a real tear-down test of the SW300, to see where Sellita put those extra four jewels if nothing else" Denney


----------



## colgex

delete, repost


----------



## colgex

I saw this article, have not seen it posted before.

For many years, Sellita operated as one of ETA's major out-sourced assembly operations for their 2824 movements.
They would receive 2824 movement kits from ETA and assortments from Nivarox directly (now part of the Swatch Group) and simply add wheels and screws and sell the movements to many famous Swiss watch brands as ETA 2824-2 movements, which in effect they were.
When it was announced that ETA would no longer be providing unfinished movement kits, this threatened Sellita's survival as a business. Their solution was to buy the parts from suppliers outside the Swatch Group with the exception of Nivarox who, as a result of the long-standing relationship over 50 years, they continued to use. At first, they weren't sure if they would have IP issues if they copied the movement exactly so they re-engineered the movement, changing some minor details These changes, although minor, added up to reduced reliability in the pre-series movements and so, Sellita decided (having now learned that there were no remaining patents for the 2824) to return almost entirely to the ETA movement design.
We started to use Sellita's SW200 ( the name for Sellita's 2824-2) at this point and, having checked the performance of each subsequent delivery of both movements, we are able to confirm the movement performance exactly matches the ETA.
Aesthetically, the movements are identical and difficult to separate and the only significant difference is in the number of jewels. Sellita added a 26th jewel on the upper side of the barrel axis which sits just below the ratchet wheel. This jewel slightly reduces the friction associated with automatic winding. However, as the ETA movement has never had a problem of reliability in this regard, it is my view that this is most likely a marketing device used by Sellita to create some separation from the ETA movement although one could make a case for the small benefit in reliability the adjusted jewel height gives.
Overall, however, the two movements are so identical in every aspect, it is difficult to have a meaningful discussions about the differences.

Johannes Jahnke

The ETA v Sellita Story


----------



## Tman10

I am uncertain which movement my new Aquaracer Cal 5 300 comes with, any advice?


----------



## Rdenney

Tman10 said:


> I am uncertain which movement my new Aquaracer Cal 5 300 comes with, any advice?


Depending on age, it could be either a 2824 or a SW200. Both are of similar (excellent) quality and are functionally identical. The only way to know is to look (with a loupe) at the plate under the balance wheel, where the movement maker put their mark. ETA uses a shield logo and Sellita uses a stylized S logo. The caliber numbers will be stamped there, too.

Rick "probably an SW200 if it's new" Denney


----------



## Tman10

Rdenney said:


> Depending on age, it could be either a 2824 or a SW200. Both are of similar (excellent) quality and are functionally identical. The only way to know is to look (with a loupe) at the plate under the balance wheel, where the movement maker put their mark. ETA uses a shield logo and Sellita uses a stylized S logo. The caliber numbers will be stamped there, too.
> 
> Rick "probably an SW200 if it's new" Denney


Thanks for the info Rick, I'm not sure of the date of manufacture but the watch (shown) was purchased last month. I think this particular model was brought to market in 2011? I've been wearing it for about a fortnight and it seems to keep perfect time.


----------



## Tman10

And yes you can all tell by my lack of a tan that I'm British.


----------



## Rdenney

Tman10 said:


> Thanks for the info Rick, I'm not sure of the date of manufacture but the watch (shown) was purchased last month. I think this particular model was brought to market in 2011? I've been wearing it for about a fortnight and it seems to keep perfect time.
> View attachment 1942154


Only way to know is to look at the movement.

Rick "could have gone either way in 2011" Denney


----------



## Tman10

But if, as you say, they are identical movements so its probably a mute point. Do you know if the ETA 2824 an actual 'Swiss' designed - built movement?


----------



## bvc2005

Tman10 said:


> But if, as you say, they are identical movements so its probably a mute point. Do you know if the ETA 2824 an actual 'Swiss' designed - built movement?


I'm no expert but, the ETA rotor would read 25 jewels. while the Sellita would read 26 jewels.


----------



## colgex

bvc2005 said:


> I'm no expert but, the ETA rotor would read 25 jewels. while the Sellita would read 26 jewels.


Not always, I've seen Oris and Edox pieces for example that completely redecorate the rotor and do not leave the 26 jewel stamp. In this case, it may be more difficult since that Tag probably does not have a display back.


----------



## bvc2005

colgex said:


> Not always, I've seen Oris and Edox pieces for example that completely redecorate the rotor and do not leave the 26 jewel stamp. In this case, it may be more difficult since that Tag probably does not have a display back.


I stand corrected!


----------



## Rdenney

Tman10 said:


> But if, as you say, they are identical movements so its probably a mute point. Do you know if the ETA 2824 an actual 'Swiss' designed - built movement?


Both are Swiss designed and built. ETA is in Grenchen, and Sellita is in Crêt-du-Locle, between Le Chaux-de-Fonds and Le Locle.

Rick "who parked in Sellita's lot to photograph the Cartier manufacture" Denney


----------



## Tman10

Rdenney said:


> Tman10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> But if, as you say, they are identical movements so its probably a mute point. Do you know if the ETA 2824 an actual 'Swiss' designed - built movement?
> 
> 
> 
> Both are Swiss designed and built. ETA is in Grenchen, and Sellita is in CrÃªt-du-Locle, between Le Chaux-de-Fonds and Le Locle.
> 
> Rick "who parked in Sellita's lot to photograph the Cartier manufacture" Denney
Click to expand...

Thanks Rick "Man with the answer" Denney!


----------



## Deli

colgex said:


> We started to use Sellita's SW200 ( the name for Sellita's 2824-2) at this point and, having checked the performance of each subsequent delivery of both movements, we are able to confirm the movement performance exactly matches the ETA.
> Aesthetically, the movements are identical and difficult to separate and the only significant difference is in the number of jewels. Sellita added a 26th jewel on the upper side of the barrel axis which sits just below the ratchet wheel. This jewel slightly reduces the friction associated with automatic winding. However, as the ETA movement has never had a problem of reliability in this regard, it is my view that this is most likely a marketing device used by Sellita to create some separation from the ETA movement although one could make a case for the small benefit in reliability the adjusted jewel height gives.


The main issue with these Sellitas is the automatic bridge and its associated parts. It can happen on refurbished or new movements. 
The rotor and its ball bearings are easily stucked, the rubies are sometimes badly pressed into the automatic bridge, and after a few months of daily use, one can see dark residues all over the bridges (old stocks of D5?) . Anyway, there's clearly an automatic winding issue on these Sellitas, lots of customers say they do not get sufficient running time with their Sellita-powered watch.


----------



## Rdenney

Deli said:


> The main issue with these Sellitas is the automatic bridge and its associated parts. It can happen on refurbished or new movements.
> The rotor and its ball bearings are easily stucked, the rubies are sometimes badly pressed into the automatic bridge, and after a few months of daily use, one can see dark residues all over the bridges (old stocks of D5?) . Anyway, there's clearly an automatic winding issue on these Sellitas, lots of customers say they do not get sufficient running time with their Sellita-powered watch.


Are these current issues?

There was talk of some issues early on in Sellita's self-branded production, with subsequent talk that these issues had all been cleared up. But talk is self-regenerating on the Internet, whether it has data to back it up or not. Many highly respected companies are using Sellita movements, and risking their reputations and warranty liabilities on them.

Rick "looking for data to back up such claims" Denney


----------



## Deli

Rdenney said:


> Are these current issues?
> 
> There was talk of some issues early on in Sellita's self-branded production, with subsequent talk that these issues had all been cleared up. But talk is self-regenerating on the Internet, whether it has data to back it up or not. Many highly respected companies are using Sellita movements, and risking their reputations and warranty liabilities on them.
> 
> Rick "looking for data to back up such claims" Denney


This is data coming right from the workbenches. I'm not taking these information from Internet, but from "real" people complaining about the low power reserve (a consequence of this automatic system issue). New watches BTW. I don't know if these are currently produced ones or coming from old stocks in the shops, though.

And guess what : each time, their watch contain a Sellita. It does happen with ETA, but this is mostly unsignificant in this case.


----------



## kenji1903

Deli said:


> This is data coming right from the workbenches. I'm not taking these information from Internet, but from "real" people complaining about the low power reserve (a consequence of this automatic system issue). New watches BTW. I don't know if these are currently produced ones or coming from old stocks in the shops, though.
> 
> And guess what : each time, their watch contain a Sellita. It does happen with ETA, but this is mostly unsignificant in this case.


i wore my Aquaracer 300m around 10 hours a day, maybe a little bit less during weekends...
as an IT guy, wrist movements are mostly during going to and off work and lunch time...
when its not worn at night, i leave it no the table crown up...

i personally observed a low power reserve initially when i bought it... that lasted for about... 6 months or so... 
during that period, i wind my watch every week or 2 just to ensure there's enough power for the coming week

after that it just got better, after 6 months, i didn't wind my watch for at least 3 months now, its still going!


----------



## Tman10

kenji1903 said:


> Deli said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is data coming right from the workbenches. I'm not taking these information from Internet, but from "real" people complaining about the low power reserve (a consequence of this automatic system issue). New watches BTW. I don't know if these are currently produced ones or coming from old stocks in the shops, though.
> 
> And guess what : each time, their watch contain a Sellita. It does happen with ETA, but this is mostly unsignificant in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> i wore my Aquaracer 300m around 10 hours a day, maybe a little bit less during weekends...
> as an IT guy, wrist movements are mostly during going to and off work and lunch time...
> when its not worn at night, i leave it no the table crown up...
> 
> i personally observed a low power reserve initially when i bought it... that lasted for about... 6 months or so...
> during that period, i wind my watch every week or 2 just to ensure there's enough power for the coming week
> 
> after that it just got better, after 6 months, i didn't wind my watch for at least 3 months now, its still going!
Click to expand...

would somebody be kind enough to explain why it's necessary to stand the watch "crown up" when left off the wrist overnight?


----------



## BarracksSi

Tman10 said:


> would somebody be kind enough to explain why it's necessary to stand the watch "crown up" when left off the wrist overnight?


Mechanical watches will have some slight imbalance and run faster or slower depending on positioning, right?

Hopefully, a watch is adjusted to run so that its crown-up position rate is opposite that of its crown-down rate -- say, +5 sec/day crown down, and -5/day crown up. The idea is that crown-down is more common during the day, when the wearer is standing and walking around. Then, when not being worn at night, crown-up will compensate for the drift that happened during the day.

That's my awkward explanation.


----------



## Tman10

Very interesting thanks for the explanation.


----------



## ReaperOneTwo

Okay, I've read through the entire thread today, and I want to bump it with a question surrounding all the made-in-china-talk.

Almost exactly a year ago (24 feb 2014) I purchased an IWC Portofino Chronograph (brand new) from an AD, as my first luxury/prestige watch. I wanted something different, not a Rolex/Omega/Breitling like all other 20-year olds. So I bought this Valjoux 7750 powered IWC Chronograph thinking it's a nice, exclusive watch with a good ETA/Valjoux movement that has proven itself to be a true workhorse since the early 70s. Now, almost a year later I learn about Sellitas SW500 - which is their take on the 7750 - and I find out that my IWC, along with the rest of the Portofino family at least uses Sellita movements. I mailed IWC about this and they came back to me telling me the movement inside my very watch was designed in collaboration by IWC with Sellita, and that they've named in the Grandjean (named after Pierre Grandjean, who was/is the founder of Sellita).

Where I don't believe that there's a chance in hell my watch is made in china, it's still not impossible that some parts are/were. And if that's case, what parts of the movement would that be? Am I too paranoid? As somebody said before, so far there are only claims that Sellitas might be made in china, but I really hope they're not, because it drastically sinks the value of the watch for me, at least in affection.


Edit: might also add that I am thinking of buying and Oris Aquis Date that utilizes the SW200. From what I read here, it seems it won't be a problem really, it's all about that pedigree.


----------



## Rdenney

You're too paranoid. There's no greater likelihood that parts in a Sellita SW500 as used in an IWC has Chinese parts than an ETA in an IWC. 

ETA is cutting back on supplying movements to non-Swatch companies. What do you expect traditional etablisseur companies to do? If that IWC had an in-house movement, you wouldn't have been able to afford it. Since Swatch and other companies have bought up all the independent Swiss movement manufactures except for Sellita and Soprod, there's not much alternative for companies that have always used supplied ebauches. 

When I photographed the Cartier Manufacture in La Chaux-de-Fonds, I was (literally) standing in Sellita's parking lot, right next to the Crêt du Locle train station. Patek Philippe's facility was in view, as was Jacquet Droz. Breitling Chronometrie was down the street to the left, just around the corner from TAG-Heuer. Le Locle, home of Zenith, Montblanc, Renaud et Papi, Tissot, and many others was two clicks in the other direction. Those two towns are less than an hour from Grenchen, home of ETA. Sellita is as Swiss as it gets.

Rick "enjoy your watch" Denney


----------



## mato123

Interesting reading guys. What are your thoughts on the parts and service in the future? I have ETA 7750 based ORIS and ETA 2892 based IWC. Let's say 10-20 years from now, do you think there will be ETA parts available to companies outside Swatch group? Or will Oris, IWC and others use Sellita parts to service their older watches?


----------



## atomicfront

Rdenney said:


> You're too paranoid. There's no greater likelihood that parts in a Sellita SW500 as used in an IWC has Chinese parts than an ETA in an IWC.
> 
> ETA is cutting back on supplying movements to non-Swatch companies. What do you expect traditional etablisseur companies to do? If that IWC had an in-house movement, you wouldn't have been able to afford it. Since Swatch and other companies have bought up all the independent Swiss movement manufactures except for Sellita and Soprod, there's not much alternative for companies that have always used supplied ebauches.
> 
> When I photographed the Cartier Manufacture in La Chaux-de-Fonds, I was (literally) standing in Sellita's parking lot, right next to the Crêt du Locle train station. Patek Philippe's facility was in view, as was Jacquet Droz. Breitling Chronometrie was down the street to the left, just around the corner from TAG-Heuer. Le Locle, home of Zenith, Montblanc, Renaud et Papi, Tissot, and many others was two clicks in the other direction. Those two towns are less than an hour from Grenchen, home of ETA. Sellita is as Swiss as it gets.
> 
> Rick "enjoy your watch" Denney


They could make their own movements like Swatch Group does. As Swatch put their own movements in 150 dollar watches I dont see an issue other than they would have lower profit rates and maybe have to spend less on their advertisng and more on their watches.


----------



## Taran2ula

h2xmark said:


> You might be right about that for now, but i think that watch company's[ not swatch] will start using Sellita a lot more in the future, and they will continue to expand, I think there product will continue to improve and more people will accept them as maybe an equal ;-)


Apparently you have bought a watch with one of these Selitta movements since yoo seem to want to defend their quality. The fact is, Selitta is not a high quality watch movement maker, but rather a knock off maker. If anyone had a choice of movements, they should choose Selitta LAST. Believe what you like.


----------



## Taran2ula

Ray916MN said:


> Is there any proof that an ETA 2824 is superior to an SW200 in terms of reliability, accuracy or resistance to shock?
> 
> I'd be a bit surprised if the 2824 was superior and wouldn't be surprised if the opposite were true.
> 
> The Sellita is a more modern rendition of the movement, made using recent manufacturing techniques, processes and machinery, and the refinement that is possible when you can study something that has a long production history instead of starting from scratch.
> 
> What is clear to me is that Sellita and the SW200 has less marketing value, than ETA and the venerable 2824. I would be very surprised if the superior marketing value isn't one of the principle drivers for the selection of the 2824 over the SW200.
> 
> Of course, the ugly truth of watches, as with all luxury goods, is that marketing value is probably more important than any other product content.


Why dont you buy one the and tell us all about the quality and how it is better than ETA. RIGHT!


----------



## BarracksSi

Okay...


----------



## zooshooter

Taran2ula said:


> Apparently you have bought a watch with one of these Selitta movements since yoo seem to want to defend their quality. My opinion is, Selitta is not a high quality watch movement maker, but rather a knock off maker. If anyone had a choice of movements, they should choose Selitta LAST. Believe what you like.


FTFY. I have yet to see any actual facts that show that Sellita is any better or worse than ETA. Someone should do a tear-down of an SW200 and an ETA 2824 with photos under a microscope, metallurgical analyses, and stress-testing. I have yet to see any such reports though. In the meantime, my SW200 only gains 5 secs/day. I'm perfectly happy with that in a mechanical. If I wanted greater accuracy I'd wear my Eco-Drive or my Timex.


----------



## Rdenney

atomicfront said:


> They could make their own movements like Swatch Group does. As Swatch put their own movements in 150 dollar watches I dont see an issue other than they would have lower profit rates and maybe have to spend less on their advertisng and more on their watches.


Do you think Swatch sprang from the earth making movements? They started with ASUAG, which was a loose consortium that included ETA and about a dozen other movement manufactures that had been consolidating since the 30's. ASUAG supplied the bulk of the Swiss industry for decades, long before they merged with SSIH to become SMH, later renamed Swatch.

For a company to make high-quality automatic movements starting with an empty building, costs would be enormous and would likely exceed marketable prices. Tissot makes a couple million watches a year; IWC a few tens of thousands. But the movements in Tissots are still not finished nearly to the same standard as are the Sellita movements in those IWC models that use them. The notion that they have the cost as those installed in $150 watches by Swatch is unevidenced.

The real damage to the traditional Swiss industry has been the loss of independent or semi-independent ebaucheries. The availability of those made it possible for a diversity of watch designs to feed a diversity of tastes.

Rick "thinking Swatch's current strategy carries out the objective to weed out small producers at middle price points" Denney


----------



## Rdenney

Taran2ula said:


> Apparently you have bought a watch with one of these Selitta movements since yoo seem to want to defend their quality. The fact is, Selitta is not a high quality watch movement maker, but rather a knock off maker. If anyone had a choice of movements, they should choose Selitta LAST. Believe what you like.


Have you ever studied one?

Rick "seeing no evidence of same" Denney


----------



## OmegaSMPMan

As long as the watch keeps decent time I really don't care about movements.


----------



## notional

I have had watches with both movements now for several years. Both have been with me in the ocean, mountain biking, and even to the pistol range a time or two. Both still keep on going, both keep great time, both seem to be able to handle shock well, and both haven't caused me any issues. The only difference I notice between the two is that when I wind them after not having worn them in a while - the Sellita SW200's second hand starts ticking before the ETA2824 does. Not that that means anything at all, it's just an observation. The Sellita will start ticking away after about 5-8 winds when the ETA starts after about 15-25. Overall, I have no issues between either of the movements and would welcome either movement again into my home without worries.


----------



## BarracksSi

OmegaSMPMan said:


> As long as the watch keeps decent time I really don't care about movements.


I hope this thread was worth the bump.


----------



## arbyjr

Wow didn't notice that this topic was originally from 2010, but I guess after 6 years we could hear accounts of how the Sellita movements have compared to the ETA's.


----------



## Orange_GT3

Taran2ula said:


> Apparently you have bought a watch with one of these Selitta movements since yoo seem to want to defend their quality. The fact is, Selitta is not a high quality watch movement maker, but rather a knock off maker. If anyone had a choice of movements, they should choose Selitta LAST. Believe what you like.


That is your opinion, but you happen, on this occasion, to be wrong.

Sellita actually used to (may still??) make movements for ETA because ETA could not keep production up with the demand.

If you are going to slam Sellita, you are also slamming ETA.


----------



## Watchbreath

Yep, bashing ETA is a favorite sport around here for 'snob-wannabes'.


Orange_GT3 said:


> That is your opinion, but you happen, on this occasion, to be wrong.
> 
> Sellita actually used to (may still??) make movements for ETA because ETA could not keep production with the demand.
> 
> If you are going to slam Sellita, you are also slamming ETA.


----------



## notional

There's a good article on the Christopher Ward blog about Sellita and ETA and their story - https://www.christopherward.com/blog/the-eta-v-sellita-story/

Enjoy!


----------



## arbyjr

In a way I feel that the ETA decision was a bit of a "dick move" (sorry for that). But for years some of these large companies depended on these products.

I understand, but also ETA was sitting as a supplier of movements, and with the Swiss watch movement companies over the years being bought out and pulled into the swatch group. That was like buying up all the competition. Then deciding that nope we are now only going to supply to our self. With the argument that they were trying to make the Swiss watch industry "better" or "Stronger". Although, it felt more like a monopolizing move. I feel hopeful that Sellita, now with the support of those LARGE company's now in need of fine movements, can take Sellita, from a "copycat" company and help them improve their products.

The 2824-2 has been a fine movement for so many years, but other than just adding that one extra jewel there is more room for improvements. As it was ETA would work to improve the movement for some of their own company brands, but even though IWC, Brietling or others would work with them to get "better" quality, it was still just "basic" ETA movements they received. So yea maybe this could help to make the Swiss watch industry better. But also could help Sellita to move past their stereotype of just a copycat, with the statements of "Oh its exactly like the bla, bla bla...", maybe in a few years we can her that Sellita movements are better instead of exactly the same.

_Please forgive my rambling, my brain is still mushy, I haven't had time to decompress from working with images all day..._


----------



## yankeexpress

As an owner of a bunch of each movement, (as well as 9015 and an A-10) I appreciate them for what they are, without getting too carried away:

Hand winding a 2824 movement has definitely caught the attention of many owners.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/eta-2824-winding-issue-2322506.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/f6-2824-handwinding-thread-866942.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/eta-2824-2-winding-question-847082.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/why-soprod-a10-considered-better-movement-2679010.html

BTW, ETA is restricting the parts to repair 2824 to outside watchmakers. Watches sent to Swatch (ETAs owner) for repair or service just get a different, renovated 2824 swapped in. Your old movement goes in to be renovated by semi-skilled labor, assembly line style and is eventually put in some other guys watch later on.

None of this has stopped me from buying 2824 or SW200 watches as I personally have not yet had any issue with my several dozen of them.


----------



## Deli

yankeexpress said:


> Watches sent to Swatch (ETAs owner) for repair or service just get a different, renovated 2824 swapped in. Your old movement goes in to be renovated by semi-skilled labor, assembly line style and is eventually put in some other guys watch later on.


Apart from the COSC, EP etc. , Tag does exactly the same


----------



## WatchMedic

I don't have any ETA movement watches, but I've been very pleased with my watches running 4r36 and 6r15 seiko movements as well as my oris with the soprod a10 movement and even my miyota 9015 watches. 
I dont know much about precise movement manufacturing locations, but I haven't heard anything bad about the sellita movement yet.


----------



## mtate

I have a WAN2111 Aquaracer that has always run within COSC standards and after a recent overhaul by TAG it now runs +2 seconds per day. It has a SW200 movement.


----------



## JC_2012

I have a fairly new Bulova Calibrator with the SW200-2 and the rotor bearing has quite a bit of play since day 1. If you gently tap the watch, the rattle sound is quite bad, to the point I don't wear the watch much (maybe 6 times in the last year). I checked the rotor for play and it's the bearing as the rotor can be moved 1mm+ on the horizontal plane. The screw holding the bearing is tight. Needless to say I am disappointed in the QC. I've had 50+ mechanical watches over the years and had high hopes for the SW200, but not exactly impressed, I even passed on buying several new watches that had the SW200 because of this. From what I researched, the SW200 has had reports of noisy bearings.

I will agree with other posts that the movement is quite accurate and it starts working as soon as you pick it up and has good power reserve. I'm hoping I had a bad example, but for the price of the watch I expected better.

I have various ETA 2824-2 (and ETA 2836) movements in my other watches and I prefer the ETA as I have not had any problems with them other than occasionally regulating them.


----------



## Michael Day

All mechanical movements are superior to Quartz. 
All Asian movements are inferior to Swiss. 
Selita are inferior to ETA
ETA are inferior to in-house 
TAG Heuer are inferior to Heuer 
TAG Heuer & Heuer are inferior to Tudor. 
Tudor are inferior to Rolex. 
Rolex are inferior to Patek Philippe. 

I know I am right because marketing and forum snobs tell me 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MorbidSalmon00

@Michael Day - you had me going there for a bit, until I read you last sentence.


----------



## Watchbreath

No, 'snob-wannabes' tell you.


Michael Day said:


> All mechanical movements are superior to Quartz.
> All Asian movements are inferior to Swiss.
> Selita are inferior to ETA
> ETA are inferior to in-house
> TAG Heuer are inferior to Heuer
> TAG Heuer & Heuer are inferior to Tudor.
> Tudor are inferior to Rolex.
> Rolex are inferior to Patek Philippe.
> 
> I know I am right because marketing and forum snobs tell me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## arbyjr

MorbidSalmon00 said:


> @Michael Day - you had me going there for a bit, until I read you last sentence.


I know right because who really Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk, makes them all sound odd, an iPhone really? I would have believed every one but who uses an iPhone???

Sent from my non iPhone using some app other than Tapatalk


----------



## arbyjr

Michael Day said:


> All mechanical movements are superior to Quartz.
> All Asian movements are inferior to Swiss.
> Selita are inferior to ETA
> _*ETA are inferior to in-house*_
> TAG Heuer are inferior to Heuer
> TAG Heuer & Heuer are inferior to Tudor.
> Tudor are inferior to Rolex.
> Rolex are inferior to Patek Philippe.
> 
> I know I am right because marketing and forum snobs tell me
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is this still true for brands like Tissot or Hamilton or even Swatch where ETA are essentially in-house movements?


----------



## Watchbreath

The same question could be asked about Oris when they were part of the Swatch Group.


arbyjr said:


> Is this still true for brands like Tissot or Hamilton or even Swatch where ETA are essentially in-house movements?


----------



## cufflinkcraze

I believe The Monaco 211p uses Sellita movement.


----------



## bullkeo

Anyone tells me that those use Sellita and ETA movement can get Cosc or only in-house movement ? Thank you.


----------



## Orange_GT3

bullkeo said:


> Anyone tells me that those use Sellita and ETA movement can get Cosc or only in-house movement ? Thank you.


Yes, these movements can be COSC certified, it just adds to the cost.


----------



## JKclassic

I saw the several pictures of the both movements and they were identical to me. So you guys are basically arguing for the difference that most of you would not even able to detect, if there is any.

The only difference would be, one is a sunrise, while the other is a sunset. Maybe it's time for change of generation.


----------



## rosborn

Why, after all this time of its being used, are we still discussing the Sellita SW-200 movement? It's just as good and as capable, as are the other Sellita movements, as any ETA movement. For crying out loud, Sellita made movements for ETA for years.


----------



## rosborn

What engine do you think is in my 500M Aquaracer Chronograph? ETA or Sellita?









Would you be surprised if I told you I don't care? It runs at +1 spd. Whatever movement is in it you can't get much better than that.


----------



## Michael Day

Watchbreath said:


> The same question could be asked about Oris when they were part of the Swatch Group.


Interestingly, prior to their Swatch takeover they made hundreds of their own movements. Then when they bought their independence back a condition was that they had to use ETA movements. Then obviously now Swatch has decided that even though they made Oris use them... now they won't be able to. So I guess Oris will.go back to what they used to do very well, make their own movements.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## hooliganjrs

My humble update as it happens to be my 2 most favorite watches each have a ETA 2824 and SW200 movement - my Sinn U1-T from 2016 has the SW200 movement and it only gains about 1 second off the wrist in a day and losses maybe .5-1 second a day on the wrist (my most accurate timekeeper). However, my WCT100 with the ETA2824 (elabore grade as I'm told) is an abysmal +24 seconds a day, but consistent no matter which position the watch is in. I know it really goes down to luck of the draw but my WCT1000 is not a gleaming example for ETA timekeeping - one of these days I'll get it regulated but for now I just deal with it.


----------



## rosborn

Michael Day said:


> Interestingly, prior to their Swatch takeover they made hundreds of their own movements. Then when they bought their independence back a condition was that they had to use ETA movements. Then obviously now Swatch has decided that even though they made Oris use them... now they won't be able to. So I guess Oris will.go back to what they used to do very well, make their own movements.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Well, Oris uses Sellita movements at the present. They have developed their own movement but it is available only in their higher tier models at the present.


----------



## rosborn

hooliganjrs said:


> My humble update as it happens to be my 2 most favorite watches each have a ETA 2824 and SW200 movement - my Sinn U1-T from 2016 has the SW200 movement and it only gains about 1 second off the wrist in a day and losses maybe .5-1 second a day on the wrist (my most accurate timekeeper). However, my WCT100 with the ETA2824 (elabore grade as I'm told) is an abysmal +24 seconds a day, but consistent no matter which position the watch is in. I know it really goes down to luck of the draw but my WCT1000 is not a gleaming example for ETA timekeeping - one of these days I'll get it regulated but for now I just deal with it.


Great looking watches! I am a huge Sinn fan but have only owned the UX. The U1 is on my "someday" wish list.

If I can be honest, I love the fact that Sellita and Soprod have allowed independent watchmakers to flourish. Probably the best thing that ever happened was when ETA decided not to sell movements outside of the SWATCH group anymore. That decision forced European watchmaker, especially, to either start making their own in-house movements or source their movements from Sellita or Soprod. Yes, it was painful at first but, in the long run, it has proved to be a very successful situation for everyone.

For what it's worth, I've had ETA and Sellita movements that were excellent and I've had ETA and Sellita movements that were stinkers. Like I wrote above, I really don't know what is running my Aquaracer but, whatever it is, it's running at +1 second per day. I'll take that all day every day.


----------



## Ducati_Fiend

Just to put in my .2 cents I have a Sinn U1 and a Tag Calibre 5, both use the SW200. Both of these are very consistent on my timegrapher @ +2 spd and +3 respectively. I have numerous ETA's and they all perform very close and in some cases not so close with the exception of the COSC ETA's in my collection. All of the SW200's I have ever owned have been extremely accurate and I have had zero problems with them. On the other hand I haven't really had any issue's with any of my ETA's either.


----------



## Ducati_Fiend

Couple of pics


----------



## adriandavidb

Had an interesting chat with a guy who repairs Swiss watches for a living here in London (no names; no pack drill!); turns out that Sellita movements typically last about 18 months before breaking down, whereas ETAs fair much better. So much for the marketing hype and the extra jewel! In the wake of Swatch's decision to limit the supply of ETAs, looks like many watch manufacturers bought loads of Sellitas (before Swatch changed their minds!), so many 'upper end mid price' (if you'll pardon the term!) brands known for quality; Sinn for example, are putting these movements in their watches, and presumably will continue to do so until they've used up their stocks of Sellitas . . . Ouch!

This was divulged to me on taking in a new diver in in to have the (profoundly vital) crown tube gasket fitted that had been left off during assembly and not spotted during QC! Not saying the make 'cos it was done under warranty and I don't want anyone to get into trouble for speaking their mind!


----------



## adriandavidb

adriandavidb said:


> Had an interesting chat with a guy who repairs Swiss watches for a living here in London (no names; no pack drill!); turns out that Sellita movements typically last about 18 months before breaking down, whereas ETAs fair much better. So much for the marketing hype and the extra jewel! In the wake of Swatch's decision to limit the supply of ETAs, looks like many watch manufacturers bought loads of Sellitas (before Swatch changed their minds!), so many 'upper end mid price' (if you'll pardon the term!) brands known for quality; Sinn for example, are putting these movements in their watches, and presumably will continue to do so until they've used up their stocks of Sellitas . . . Ouch!
> 
> This was divulged to me on taking in a new diver in in to have the (profoundly vital) crown tube gasket fitted that had been left off during assembly and not spotted during QC! Not saying the make 'cos it was done under warranty and I don't want anyone to get into trouble for speaking their mind!


It wasn't a Sinn BTW


----------



## notional

Wasn't a Bell & Ross, a Zodiac, Eterna or an Ocean7 either. LOL 18 months? Have one that's 6 years old and still going strong without any issue. What facts does the Londoner Swiss watch repair give to support that Sellita moments don't last as long as ETA? Heck, even ETA contributors (Eterna) even use Sellita.


----------



## Rdenney

adriandavidb said:


> Had an interesting chat with a guy who repairs Swiss watches for a living here in London (no names; no pack drill!); turns out that Sellita movements typically last about 18 months before breaking down, whereas ETAs fair much better. So much for the marketing hype and the extra jewel! In the wake of Swatch's decision to limit the supply of ETAs, looks like many watch manufacturers bought loads of Sellitas (before Swatch changed their minds!), so many 'upper end mid price' (if you'll pardon the term!) brands known for quality; Sinn for example, are putting these movements in their watches, and presumably will continue to do so until they've used up their stocks of Sellitas . . . Ouch!
> 
> This was divulged to me on taking in a new diver in in to have the (profoundly vital) crown tube gasket fitted that had been left off during assembly and not spotted during QC! Not saying the make 'cos it was done under warranty and I don't want anyone to get into trouble for speaking their mind!


Not my experience at all.

Don't think repair techs are incapable of jumping to conclusions based on a more limited sample than you might realize.

Rick "Sellita doesn't provide crown gaskets--that's the case maker's job" Denney


----------



## adriandavidb

Rdenney said:


> Not my experience at all.
> 
> Don't think repair techs are incapable of jumping to conclusions based on a more limited sample than you might realize.
> 
> Rick "Sellita doesn't provide crown gaskets--that's the case maker's job" Denney


In fairness, unless you repair watches or are involved in the industry professionally, the likelihood is that he has been exposed to more Sellita and ETA movements than the average watch enthusiast . . .

If you do have direct professional knowledge, then fair enough


----------



## adriandavidb

notional said:


> Wasn't a Bell & Ross, a Zodiac, Eterna or an Ocean7 either. LOL 18 months? Have one that's 6 years old and still going strong without any issue. What facts does the Londoner Swiss watch repair give to support that Sellita moments don't last as long as ETA? Heck, even ETA contributors (Eterna) even use Sellita.


In his words, he sees about 10 Sellita ETS 2824 clones for every ETA 2824, that needs repair, as opposed to just coming in for a service


----------



## Rdenney

adriandavidb said:


> In his words, he sees about 10 Sellita ETS 2824 clones for every ETA 2824, that needs repair, as opposed to just coming in for a service


We should remember that Sellita has sold their cheapest version of the SW200 to the cheapest brands, while the 2824 has been sold in much higher percentages in its more upscale versions to bigger companies with more extensive quality control. It wasn't until five or six years ago that luxury (non-Swatch Group) brands started buying Sellita movements in bulk.

My Sellita-equipped watches have required less repair than my ETA-equipped watches, but I don't own more than one or two watches with standard-grade movements. If a watchmaker has substantive data, we should be able to evaluate what has been going wrong, the relationship to watch-company price point and QC, and any trends over time.

Example: I have heard many American car mechanics of deep experience complain that Toyota and Honda use bolt sizes one size too small for any given task, compared to traditional American carmakers. I happen to hold that view myself, based on (professional) experience from so long ago that it is probably no longer relevant. But Toyotas are still undoubtedly more reliable than those other brands.

And some even deeply experienced mechanics will also have deep-seated opinions about Ford versus Chevy, based as much as anything on what their pappy liked, and will color their own experience with that bias.

There are lots of ETA movements that passed through the Sellita factory, when Sellita was doing mostly contract work for ETA. That doesn't make data any easier to interpret.

Rick "extrapolation causes a lot of Internet FUD" Denney


----------



## notional

Okay, let's skip the repairer of watches and go right to the manufacturer who uses Sellita watches. This is what Christopher Ward had to say - https://www.christopherward.com/blog/the-eta-v-sellita-story/ (In short, they use Sellita movements and the differences are so insignificant, that it's not even worth discussing).


----------



## Michael Day

I think it's important that this argument moves away from the Selita movement looking almost identical to ETA and that for most people being able to pick the difference type arguments. 

More technical information on layman's terms should be used by those that know. 

Why?
The arguments as they often are presented now could just as easily be used to support the purchase of game watches rather than the real Mccoy. If you can't see a perceivable difference, why buy the original? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## adriandavidb

Rdenney said:


> We should remember that Sellita has sold their cheapest version of the SW200 to the cheapest brands, while the 2824 has been sold in much higher percentages in its more upscale versions to bigger companies with more extensive quality control. It wasn't until five or six years ago that luxury (non-Swatch Group) brands started buying Sellita movements in bulk.
> 
> My Sellita-equipped watches have required less repair than my ETA-equipped watches, but I don't own more than one or two watches with standard-grade movements. If a watchmaker has substantive data, we should be able to evaluate what has been going wrong, the relationship to watch-company price point and QC, and any trends over time.
> 
> Example: I have heard many American car mechanics of deep experience complain that Toyota and Honda use bolt sizes one size too small for any given task, compared to traditional American carmakers. I happen to hold that view myself, based on (professional) experience from so long ago that it is probably no longer relevant. But Toyotas are still undoubtedly more reliable than those other brands.
> 
> And some even deeply experienced mechanics will also have deep-seated opinions about Ford versus Chevy, based as much as anything on what their pappy liked, and will color their own experience with that bias.
> 
> There are lots of ETA movements that passed through the Sellita factory, when Sellita was doing mostly contract work for ETA. That doesn't make data any easier to interpret.
> 
> Rick "extrapolation causes a lot of Internet FUD" Denney


You make a very good point in para 1; the likelihood is that a typical watch tech will see a greater proportion of cheaper watches containing cheaper movements because in all probability there will be more of these floating about.

However, whilst I don't know a huge amount about movements, but I was under the impression the only differences between lower and higher grade movements is specific components (shock protection; balance wheels and hairsprings etc), and that the rest of it was bog-standard, assembled in the same way to the same tolerances, thus unless failure is in these areas (possible with shock protection I suppose), then there shouldn't be that much difference in reliability, only accuracy.

I didn't have time to explore in detail the areas where Sellitas fail, so I can't comment. If I get the chance I'll do so.


----------



## adriandavidb

posts seem to disappear and reappear on here, how odd


----------



## notional

Rdenney said:


> We should remember that Sellita has sold their cheapest version of the SW200 to the cheapest brands, while the 2824 has been sold in much higher percentages in its more upscale versions to bigger companies with more extensive quality control. It wasn't until five or six years ago that luxury (non-Swatch Group) brands started buying Sellita movements in bulk.
> 
> My Sellita-equipped watches have required less repair than my ETA-equipped watches, but I don't own more than one or two watches with standard-grade movements. If a watchmaker has substantive data, we should be able to evaluate what has been going wrong, the relationship to watch-company price point and QC, and any trends over time.
> 
> Example: I have heard many American car mechanics of deep experience complain that Toyota and Honda use bolt sizes one size too small for any given task, compared to traditional American carmakers. I happen to hold that view myself, based on (professional) experience from so long ago that it is probably no longer relevant. But Toyotas are still undoubtedly more reliable than those other brands.
> 
> And some even deeply experienced mechanics will also have deep-seated opinions about Ford versus Chevy, based as much as anything on what their pappy liked, and will color their own experience with that bias.
> 
> There are lots of ETA movements that passed through the Sellita factory, when Sellita was doing mostly contract work for ETA. That doesn't make data any easier to interpret.
> 
> Rick "extrapolation causes a lot of Internet FUD" Denney


Where did you get all this information on Sellita? I Googled the $#!t out of it and couldn't corroborate any of your information as either fact or fiction. Also, what are the 'cheaper brands' that use Sellita? Thank you for your elaboration ahead of time so I can wrap my head around some of these statements.


----------



## yankeexpress

notional said:


> Where did you get all this information on Sellita? I Googled the $#!t out of it and couldn't corroborate any of your information as either fact or fiction. Also, what are the 'cheaper brands' that use Sellita? Thank you for your elaboration ahead of time so I can wrap my head around some of these statements.


Better fix your google:

https://www.christopherward.com/etasellitastory.html

Lots of affordables have Sellita inside, starting with some Invicta like model 9937....

https://www.watchuseek.com/f220/sub...nvicta-8926obv2-vs-invicta-9937-a-912474.html

Other affordable Sellita users include C.Ward, Eterna, Oris, Deep Blue....


----------



## notional

yankeexpress said:


> Better fix your google:
> 
> https://www.christopherward.com/etasellitastory.html
> 
> Lots of affordables have Sellita inside, starting with some Invicta like model 9937....
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f220/sub...nvicta-8926obv2-vs-invicta-9937-a-912474.html
> 
> Other affordable Sellita users include C.Ward, Eterna, Oris, Deep Blue....


Nothing in any of those articles said that they are 'cheaper brands' which buy 'cheap sellitas'. No facts to support any of the OP's statements. Just opinions.


----------



## harryst

notional said:


> Nothing in any of those articles said that they are 'cheaper brands' which buy 'cheap sellitas'. No facts to support any of the OP's statements. Just opinions.


This is one of the basic premises of almost every discussion around here. You are welcome to question it - but you are going to have a different discussion (different than the one in this thread, for sure).


----------



## Sean779

I've become unhappy with Sellita SW200s because of excessive isochronism. The last 10 hours of power reserve can slow down as much as 30 sec. when previously the SW200 was running slightly fast. Nothing scientific mind you, but I haven't experienced this with ETA2824s. And I put all movements through the ringer, 6 positions over 24 hours noting the curve of their accuracy.

AFAIK, Sellita didn't manufacture movements to assemble for ETA, they simply assembled movements ETA gave them. If that's true, I wonder at how fast Sellita got up to speed cloning the 2824, esp. when I've read ETA's fine-tuning of the 2824 over decades resulted from superior use of metallurgy for reliability and longevity, something that can't be easily cloned if you're rushing to market.


----------



## Sean779

btw, this isochronism with SW200 is important to me because I'm not active enough to keep SW200s 75% wind, more like 25% wind, at which point it starts losing seconds precipitously.


----------



## adriandavidb

The guy I spoke didn't give me any corroboration; simply his opinion based on servicing & repairing watches. Whilst it's possible he has some subjective bias (haven't all of us?), I think it's fair to say he has significantly greater exposure to the reliability issues of various ETA & Sellita movements than those of us on this site not involved in the watch industry professionally; which I imagine is most of us.

It's is most certainly not my intention to ruffle the feathers of those who own watches with Sellita movements; simply to provide another perspective to everybody as a whole, divorced from the machinations of those have most to gain from 'talking-up' their products. The more info we all have, the better, surely? I don't doubt that the likes of Christopher Ward_ et al _would like to reassure us all that Sellita and ETA are equivalent; but then he would wouldn't he  BTW, I happen to really like his stuff, particularly the C60 Trident.

I also happen to really like Oris and Sinn; both of whom seem to have bought a job lot of Sellitas before it became apparent that Swatch had decided to rescind their decision to sell to those outside the Group.

Ultimately most sources of information have a level of bias, and it's up to the reader to make their own decision, I personally thought it wise to make I what heard available to all, so please don't shoot the messenger.

I welcome other opinions; I'm not interested in being right; simply on knowing the truth, so far as that is possible . . .


----------



## Michael Day

adriandavidb said:


> The guy I spoke didn't give me any corroboration; simply his opinion based on servicing & repairing watches. Whilst it's possible he has some subjective bias (haven't all of us?), I think it's fair to say he has significantly greater exposure to the reliability issues of various ETA & Sellita movements than those of us on this site not involved in the watch industry professionally; which I imagine is most of us.


Don't forget though, you're not comparing him to one of us. You are comparing his single experience to the collective of the forum. As a collective I would think our experience is greater.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## notional

And as part of the collective...resistance is futile.


----------



## Watchbreath

Now if it were 7 of 9; maybe.


notional said:


> And as part of the collective...resistance is futile.


----------



## Rdenney

Data are good. Opinions, expressed as such and properly bounded and qualified, are fine (though they may be challenged on the basis of those boundaries and qualifiers). Myth and lore does not add to the collective store of useful information--indeed, it subtracts from it. 

Rick "careful with boundaries and qualifiers" Denney


----------



## BarracksSi

Data. Not Lore.

(although I'll quickly acknowledge that a watchmaker has more hands-on experience than I ever will... but also acknowledge that a watchmaker can only know so much about movements he doesn't work on, too)


----------



## adriandavidb

BarracksSi said:


> Data. Not Lore.
> 
> (although I'll quickly acknowledge that a watchmaker has more hands-on experience than I ever will... but also acknowledge that a watchmaker can only know so much about movements he doesn't work on, too)


Absolutely true; he works on both Sellita AND ETA


----------



## adriandavidb

Michael Day said:


> Don't forget though, you're not comparing him to one of us. You are comparing his single experience to the collective of the forum. As a collective I would think our experience is greater.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Then perhaps we should define what you mean by 'collective'; if by that you mean members a group who venture opinions on disparate parts of a watch forum (albeit an excellent one I should add), all well and good; but are these collated and presented as hard data; I think not. Ultimately such 'information' will therefore suffer from the same subjective issues as those expounded by the watch repairer himself.


----------



## adriandavidb

Rdenney said:


> Data are good. Opinions, expressed as such and properly bounded and qualified, are fine (though they may be challenged on the basis of those boundaries and qualifiers). Myth and lore does not add to the collective store of useful information--indeed, it subtracts from it.
> 
> Rick "careful with boundaries and qualifiers" Denney


Absolutely, hard data is always preferable . . . However I don't see how the opinion of a guy who spends all day, day in, day out repairing and servicing ETA and Sellita movements can be relegated to the status of 'myth and lore' when it's based on his very real direct experience. No more likely to be myth or lore than your opinion, my opinion, or that of anyone else on here surely? Your personal experience of a movement, for example, can hardly be regarded and myth and lore simply because WE don't have the facts, and have to take your word for it,  From that perspective his opinion is no less valid that that of any contributor to this site!

As I've all ready intimated, all this is subject to the veracity of what he imparted to me, and for all I know there may be a disparity here, but frankly I doubt it, because . . . whilst as I've already mentioned, there is always the possibility of huge bias on his part for some reason as yet unknown to us, is this really likely to be anything other than informed by his direct experience and therefore completely sound? Ultimately I for one am willing to put my faith in the opinion of somebody with his volume of direct experience, and it will make me think twice about buying a Sellita; that is my personal prerogative of course 

Opinions not benefiting from such extensive experience will be necessarily less reliable precisely because they have not been informed by such a large data set, and consequently are not as viable, in statistical terms; a bit like the bloke who thinks that, because his Grandad smoked and lived to 90, then smoking must be harmless. . . I think we've all met one of those. . .


----------



## Rdenney

adriandavidb said:


> Absolutely, hard data is always preferable . . . However I don't see how the opinion of a guy who spends all day, day in, day out repairing and servicing ETA and Sellita movements can be relegated to the status of 'myth and lore' when it's based on his very real direct experience. No more likely to be myth or lore than your opinion, my opinion, or that of anyone else on here surely? Your personal experience of a movement, for example, can hardly be regarded and myth and lore simply because WE don't have the facts, and have to take your word for it,  From that perspective his opinion is no less valid that that of any contributor to this site!
> 
> As I've all ready intimated, all this is subject to the veracity of what he imparted to me, and for all I know there may be a disparity here, but frankly I doubt it, because . . . whilst as I've already mentioned, there is always the possibility of huge bias on his part for some reason as yet unknown to us, is this really likely to be anything other than informed by his direct experience and therefore completely sound? Ultimately I for one am willing to put my faith in the opinion of somebody with his volume of direct experience, and it will make me think twice about buying a Sellita; that is my personal prerogative of course
> 
> Opinions not benefiting from such extensive experience will be necessarily less reliable precisely because they have not been informed by such a large data set, and consequently are not as viable, in statistical terms; a bit like the bloke who thinks that, because his Grandad smoked and lived to 90, then smoking must be harmless. . . I think we've all met one of those. . .


I never said his opinions were myth and lore. I said they were opinions subject to boundaries and qualifiers, like all poorly evidenced opinions.

Myth and lore is what happens when unbounded and unqualified opinion is spread by the unknowing on forums on the basis of the presumed credentials of the source, and eventually solely on the basis of repetition.

Not all myth and lore is false, of course, but it is all unreliable.

Rick "photographs of specific failures and their contexts would be data" Denney


----------



## BarracksSi

What kind of Data?


----------



## Michael Day

adriandavidb said:


> Then perhaps we should define what you mean by 'collective'; if by that you mean members a group who venture opinions on disparate parts of a watch forum (albeit an excellent one I should add), all well and good; but are these collated and presented as hard data; I think not. Ultimately such 'information' will therefore suffer from the same subjective issues as those expounded by the watch repairer himself.


Agreed. Just a collection of non imperical data. Much as the OP was. Nevertheless given they are both the same I would back multiple people's direct experience over a single persons. Also as a forum we are being asked as end users generally. No one's post carries with it a CV of their actual knowledge, while its also clear that some posts are more like football supporters who blindly follow their brand and can't see clearly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Watchbreath

The bottom, 'Control'; inside joke.


BarracksSi said:


> What kind of Data?


----------



## Neognosis

A local watch repair person might see less expensive watches overall. This could skew their data.


----------



## adriandavidb

Neognosis said:


> A local watch repair person might see less expensive watches overall. This could skew their data.


True, but in this case the company he works specialises in, and carries the contracts for warranty work for, many important Swiss brands. I don't want to say who in open forum, because I really don't want anything rebounding on him after his candour in telling me his opinion.


----------



## adriandavidb

Rdenney;43641647[B said:


> ]I never said his opinions were myth and lore[/B]. I said they were opinions subject to boundaries and qualifiers, like all poorly evidenced opinions.
> 
> Myth and lore is what happens when unbounded and unqualified opinion is spread by the unknowing on forums on the basis of the presumed credentials of the source, and eventually solely on the basis of repetition.
> 
> Not all myth and lore is false, of course, but it is all unreliable.
> 
> Rick "photographs of specific failures and their contexts would be data" Denney


Then profound apologies for misconstruing what you said


----------



## adriandavidb

Michael Day said:


> Agreed. Just a collection of non imperical data. Much as the OP was. Nevertheless given they are both the same I would back multiple people's direct experience over a single persons. Also as a forum we are being asked as end users generally. No one's post carries with it a CV of their actual knowledge, while its also clear that some posts are more like football supporters who blindly follow their brand and can't see clearly.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


I agree, but can't help feeling that is a good thing that all that experience goes through the one person, I think there are many issues with forming an opinion based trusting what you (not specifically you, I mean all of us) might read on a site, even one as excellent as this one (and I do mean that, in my opinion it is currently the best watch forum in existence), for example:

1) Many of us are watch enthusiasts, constantly flipping watches to make way for new stuff, thus often not owning any particular watch for long enough for issues to become apparent, it's often someone else's problem by then, although conversely many of us buy more expensive brands used, which may count in the other direction . . . Therefore data by retail cost may become skewed too

2) Someone made the point about the average quality level of watch a watch repairer might see; same goes for us on here, there will be far more commentary on low to mid tire (Steinhart's up to Glycine say), than higher end (IWC containing modified ETAs rather than in-house, as some of them do) resulting in a similar effect to point 1) above, at least potentially.

3) Data is generally skewed by psychology; people being far more likely to hit the keyboard to report an negative experience than a positive one. Ultimately we don't know how many people there are who are happy with a given watch, we are more likely to hear from those with a negative experience!

4) This is a big site; how much info do people miss, even if rigorously pursuing an interest in movement reliability? Posts constantly being made in different threads dotted all over the shop

5) Many of us have modest (some more immodest than others!) collections, resulting in watches not getting as much wrist time as those being worn by people who arn't members of a forum like this. This can result in reliability issues not becoming manifest, since 'mean time between failures' is always going to be a function of,_ inter-alia ,_wrist-hours. Although It's also true that wearing the same watch all the time reduces the failure rate per unit time it's operating of course; watches don't like sitting idle, lubricants thicken etc

I take your point, but can't help feeling that all that experience filtered through one bloke leads to a more balanced view of the situation, rather than the necessarily more piece-meal experience of forum members. Don't get me wrong, I think member contributions are very valuable and very interesting too, otherwise I wouldn't be on here


----------



## Rdenney

adriandavidb said:


> True, but in this case the company he works specialises in, and carries the contracts for warranty work for, many important Swiss brands. I don't want to say who in open forum, because I really don't want anything rebounding on him after his candour in telling me his opinion.


Fair enough. There are some self-selection things going on there, even with the most reputable of repair techs. For example, if I am an authorized Swatch Group repair center, I will see many ETA-powered watches that are in for routine service. But I might only see a Sellita movement from walk-in customers when they are broken. That will influence the percentage of each that I see that need parts. Also, watches at lower price points are not routinely serviced as are watches at higher price points, also increasing the percentage that come in broken versus just needing routine servicing.

Someone mentioned metallurgy. I would be surprised if Sellita uses weaker metals than ETA, but evidence of that would require some kind of testing, or at least analysis of failures that have occurred, beyond the unexplained and unevidenced statement, "I've seen a lot of failed parts." Which parts? What kinds of failures? Under what conditions? There were reports from Sellita's early days about barrel gears, as I recall (maybe incorrectly), and those persist in myth and lore, despite many other reports that Sellita corrected the problem years ago.

Repair techs are not statisticians, and are subject to sampling bias as much as anyone.

Just look at the opinions that have been rendered about Rolex movements over the years--they range widely despite being from techs who all have deep experience. Example: Rolex's use of a pin bearing for the rotor (versus an ETA-style ball bearing) has received criticism as being wear-prone. There are pictures of the wear, plus pictures of the rotor's rub marks in the movement that occur when that bearing gets sloppy, in some of those reviews. But we still don't really know how common those problems really are, and they are countered by thousands of friend-of-a-friend stories of Rolexes that work perfectly after 40 years without service.

But this is fact: Swatch Group has stated for years their intention to restrict the supply of ETA movements, reserving them only for companies in the group. Sellita is one of the very few alternatives. If we like companies that produce unique and interesting designs but don't have their own movement factories, we will at some point have to rally behind Sellita and other companies like it. Hearing people opine on the basis of poor evidence that Sellita is no good plays into Swatch's anti-competitive strategies.

Rick "also biased" Denney


----------



## johnMcKlane

arbyjr said:


> Sent from my non iPhone using some app other than Tapatalk


hahahhaahhahahaha


----------



## adriandavidb

Rdenney said:


> Fair enough. There are some self-selection things going on there, even with the most reputable of repair techs. For example, if I am an authorized Swatch Group repair center, I will see many ETA-powered watches that are in for routine service. But I might only see a Sellita movement from walk-in customers when they are broken. That will influence the percentage of each that I see that need parts. Also, watches at lower price points are not routinely serviced as are watches at higher price points, also increasing the percentage that come in broken versus just needing routine servicing.
> 
> Someone mentioned metallurgy. I would be surprised if Sellita uses weaker metals than ETA, but evidence of that would require some kind of testing, or at least analysis of failures that have occurred, beyond the unexplained and unevidenced statement, "I've seen a lot of failed parts." Which parts? What kinds of failures? Under what conditions? There were reports from Sellita's early days about barrel gears, as I recall (maybe incorrectly), and those persist in myth and lore, despite many other reports that Sellita corrected the problem years ago.
> 
> Repair techs are not statisticians, and are subject to sampling bias as much as anyone.
> 
> Just look at the opinions that have been rendered about Rolex movements over the years--they range widely despite being from techs who all have deep experience. Example: Rolex's use of a pin bearing for the rotor (versus an ETA-style ball bearing) has received criticism as being wear-prone. There are pictures of the wear, plus pictures of the rotor's rub marks in the movement that occur when that bearing gets sloppy, in some of those reviews. But we still don't really know how common those problems really are, and they are countered by thousands of friend-of-a-friend stories of Rolexes that work perfectly after 40 years without service.
> 
> But this is fact: Swatch Group has stated for years their intention to restrict the supply of ETA movements, reserving them only for companies in the group. Sellita is one of the very few alternatives. If we like companies that produce unique and interesting designs but don't have their own movement factories, we will at some point have to rally behind Sellita and other companies like it. Hearing people opine on the basis of poor evidence that Sellita is no good plays into Swatch's anti-competitive strategies.
> 
> Rick "also biased" Denney


True, but might a repairer just as likely see many Sellitas for service and ETAs only when they break down? Maybe your presumption is that a repairer might see_ higher grade _ETAs for service and_ lower grade _Sellitas only when they become U/S? After all, it would be all to easy to assume that owners of higher-end watches are more assiduous about getting their watches serviced, whilst owners of less expensive watches only bother seeing a tech when their watch breaks down entirely. Comparing apples with oranges_ will _skew results; I think we should be careful with our assumptions.

The general thrust of what I have been saying over the last few posts is that a tech's opinion about movement reliability is no less valid than members opinions on this forum and therefore worthwhile delineating, for reasons I have already stated. I think we've flogged this to death _ad nauseam _now, so I'm not going to post any further on the matter in this thread, as I think this will go on and on.

I shall continue post any further opinions I hear, from whomever, on this subject; forum members can use their own critical faculties to sort the wheat from the chaff. 

Very interesting info on Rolex BTW, I didn't know that.

Regards

Adrian (just as biased as the rest) Braham


----------



## adriandavidb

johnMcKlane said:


> hahahhaahhahahaha


indeed!


----------



## notional

tinmichael said:


> ETA 2824-2 gets my vote.


Why?


----------



## Neognosis

I own five automatic watches with the following movements:

Seiko 4R36
Seiko 6R15
Oris 733 (Selita SW 200-1)
ETA 2834-2



I have to say that each movement has let me down in small ways and also performed fantastically at other times. I think that it's also hard to come to any kind of a conclusion based on a small sample of the watches in any of our relatively small collections. And when you factor in that many of us get watches on the pre-owned or gray market, it makes the comparisons even less relevant. For example, I bought my selita new from an AD... and it has performed as well as +2 a day for weeks, and then suddenly jumped up to +7, and then ended up back down at +2 later. The ETA movement I have was bought on the gray market, and it had consistent +5 performance for three years... when suddenly it jumped up to +15 and would not hand wind... so it is obviously in need of a service. But what happened to that ETA while in the hands of the gray market? How long was it sitting around? Was it handled a lot and then allowed to wind down every day? Who knows? I certainly don't, and I wouldn't want to make a judgement between the selita or the ETA just based on my experience. 


So far, I'm happy with my selita movement. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Selita, or another ETA. Or any of the Seiko movements either....


----------



## dan360

Give me all the Sellita movements I can get. Up yours, Swatch.


----------



## slickvolt

Wow, I just read this entire thread from 2010 until now...2018...wth is wrong with my life!

let me summarize the absolute chaos going on to date...

intially, 8 years ago, there was a simple question asked...Sellita (or Setilla as some geniuses posted it for months!) or ETA?
then some Setilla speller accused Sellita of being a Chinese knock off, this unfounded accusation went on for literally years...the sad part was, on about page 2 or 3 of the comments, the ownership of Sellita was provided and shown to be GENUINE Swiss. But that didn’t slow down the Chinese company accusations one iota, no, nope, no way..they went on for 5 years as though the evidence to the contrary was ever shown..it was..it’s a f’n Swiss company...period. And I would be remiss if I failed to credit Rick “I got photos” Denny of stating on NUMEROUS OCCASIONS he has the physical evidence.

then we had some voices of sanity that REMINDED EVERYBODY WHO CAN READ ENGLISH...that ETA and Sellita started with a working relationship, even as Sellita initially made its own movements. We learned that Sellita reengineeredthe ETA 2824-2 movement and added a 26th jewel. Then some pretty good personal experience stories with the ETA and Sellita movements ensued...all pretty much stated on balance they were about the same overall...each having its own unique quirks.

then we had numerous horological articles posted that outright stated no appreciable differences between the ETA vs Sellita movements...and I do mean numerous...I don’t think any but three (counting me) actually read them, as nonsense comments continued directly refuted by the FACTS provided..now that’s a forum normale! 

Then in the last last two years a kind of a children on the playground dispute about the Borg and assimilation into the collective ensued...and I’m just sitting here mumbling the obvious to myself...which I know a few others here are as well:

ITS BEEN 8 YEARS ON THIS STRING, SELLITA MOVEMENTS HAVE PROVED THEMSELVES, WATCHES HAVING THEM ARE NOT EXPLODING, MANUFACTURERS ARE IN FACT USING THEM, AND THEY ARE EXPANDING....HISTORY HAS KILLED THE NAY SAYERS, SELLITA IS THE NEW ETA


----------



## Neognosis

Pretty much sums it up. 

Another personal anectdote... i own both an ETA and a Selitta, and both have run very well, at COSC, at various times over the years. I have no lroblem or hesitation buying either.

Seiko’s movements, however.....


----------



## Carl.1

Love it, just read all this. Sellita ETA....really all the same thing.


----------



## Michael Day

Carl.1 said:


> Love it, just read all this. Sellita ETA....really all the same thing.


No need to read the thread to know that Selita is Swiss and virtually the same as ETA. Most numb nuts wouldn't be able to pick the difference with branding removed. But then like everyone else, some people are just so freekin stupid.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Carl.1

True.


----------



## notional

Good enough for these clients of Sellita - Invicta, Eterna, Bell & Ross, Deep Blue, Sinn, Bulova, Breitling, Jean Richard, Tag Heuer, Aristo, Gruman, Alpina, Oris, Marathon, Chronoswiss, TAWATEC, Christopher Ward, Ocean7, Zelos, IWC, Montblanc, Doxa, Muhle Glashutte, Louis Erard, Baume & Mercier, Frederique Constant, and Marcello C, then good enough for little old me. Just sayin'. For those who present opinion, I welcome it, but if you wish to sway me, don't present opinion without fact.

Some references for the 'facts' - https://www.grumanwatches.com/blogs/discover/the-movements, https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Sellita, https://www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=SW_220, Watches in Depth - Movement Calibres - The Baily Blog, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/zelos-abyss-2-dive-watch/, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/iwc-da-vinci-automatic-edition-150-years-watch-2018/, https://www.ablogtowatch.com/montbl...-chronograph-manufacture-chronograph-watches/, ad nauseam, ad infinitum


----------



## Glashutte72

I've been reading this thread with interest for a month or so as I was planning to replace my 2010 Breitling that used an ETA movement with a watch with an SW200 movement. Having now owned that watch - a Mühle Terrasport III - for 10 days, I can report that it's religiously gaining 2 seconds a day, which is actually slightly better than the more expensive ETA powered Colt it replaced. It's early days, but so far I'm very impressed by both Mühle and Sellita.


----------



## Watchbreath

It all comes down to the effort made during regulation.


Glashutte72 said:


> I've been reading this thread with interest for a month or so as I was planning to replace my 2010 Breitling that used an ETA movement with a watch with an SW200 movement. Having now owned that watch - a Mühle Terrasport III - for 10 days, I can report that it's religiously gaining 2 seconds a day, which is actually slightly better than the more expensive ETA powered Colt it replaced. It's early days, but so far I'm very impressed by both Mühle and Sellita.


----------



## Miller Time II

I read the first two pages, then jumped to the last page and read your summary. Boy am I glad I did!

Thank you for providing this summary.


----------



## AllenP

The opinion you have regarding a particular piece depends very much on where in the developmental timeline you read about it.

My understanding is that Sellita (not Setilla) was an official outsource manufacturer of ETA 2824-2 movements. Faced with the loss of their principal income stream they decided to market movements under their own name.

Initially concerned that an exact copy of a 2824 movement would be problematic, Sellita made some minor changes. Those changes, it turned out, diminished the performance of the movement.

But the situation changed. Informed that all the copyrights had expired on the 2824, Sellita began to manufacture movements which were, with one exception, exact copies of the venerable ETA. That exception?...Sellita added a 26th jewel to the barrel axis. The added jewel probably reduced the friction of automatic winding; but probably not enough to matter performancewise. My guess is that it's a move with future marketing in mind.

In sum, there is little, if any difference between the SW200 Sellita PRODUCES NOW, and the ETA 2824-2. Comparing images of them side by side they look identical. Anybody who tells you they are substantially different is probably working off old information. 

Remember, Sellita built 2824-2 movements for a very long time. They probably know how.

CWORLD had a very good article on this subject.


----------



## Sapphire44

My WAY2012 has a ETA 2824


----------



## vtknight

AllenP said:


> The opinion you have regarding a particular piece depends very much on where in the developmental timeline you read about it.
> 
> My understanding is that Sellita (not Setilla) was an official outsource manufacturer of ETA 2824-2 movements. Faced with the loss of their principal income stream they decided to market movements under their own name.
> 
> Initially concerned that an exact copy of a 2824 movement would be problematic, Sellita made some minor changes. Those changes, it turned out, diminished the performance of the movement.
> 
> But the situation changed. Informed that all the copyrights had expired on the 2824, Sellita began to manufacture movements which were, with one exception, exact copies of the venerable ETA. That exception?...Sellita added a 26th jewel to the barrel axis. The added jewel probably reduced the friction of automatic winding; but probably not enough to matter performancewise. My guess is that it's a move with future marketing in mind.
> 
> In sum, there is little, if any difference between the SW200 Sellita PRODUCES NOW, and the ETA 2824-2. Comparing images of them side by side they look identical. Anybody who tells you they are substantially different is probably working off old information.
> 
> Remember, Sellita built 2824-2 movements for a very long time. They probably know how.
> 
> CWORLD had a very good article on this subject.


Thank-you for this thread. I do have one question that I have not seen the answer to yet; what about longevity? One watch person I spoke with who is in the business stated that the movements are in fact near identical - component materials can vary however. He stated he was seeing the Sellita movements only last about 2-3 years and then they do not get foxed - they just get replaced - while the "work horse" ETA 2824 movements can and are serviced with "much" longer life.

I am interested to hear those with experience how they feel about their being a longevity difference - or if it is just Swiss conspiracy...


----------



## Michael Day

vtknight said:


> Thank-you for this thread. I do have one question that I have not seen the answer to yet; what about longevity? One watch person I spoke with who is in the business stated that the movements are in fact near identical - component materials can vary however. He stated he was seeing the Sellita movements only last about 2-3 years and then they do not get foxed - they just get replaced - while the "work horse" ETA 2824 movements can and are serviced with "much" longer life.
> 
> I am interested to hear those with experience how they feel about their being a longevity difference - or if it is just Swiss conspiracy...


Very simple answer... Untrue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## vtknight

Michael Day said:


> Very simple answer... Untrue.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Thank-you Michael - when you say it is untrue - you are stating that longevity for the Sellita movements has been on par with the ETA movements in your experience or in what you have heard?


----------



## Michael Day

vtknight said:


> Thank-you Michael - when you say it is untrue - you are stating that longevity for the Sellita movements has been on par with the ETA movements in your experience or in what you have heard?


Both. They are virtually the same movement. Anyone starting differently had a vested interest or is plain wrong. It's a bit like the Seiko crowd who falsely believe a JDM version of a watch is better made.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## enricodepaoli

I don't have any experience owning a Sellita. All I can say is that my TAGs with ETA movements are true workhorses. And they are over 20 years old.


----------



## Tekkamaki

Big fan of the Miyota 9000 series automatic 4k movements. I like Japanese watches, but Seiko isn't doing it for me lately. Would like a GS though : )

My two Miyotas run +1 & +2 seconds daily.


----------



## Skratch

2020 bump.


----------



## BarracksSi

Skratch said:


> 2020 bump.


WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY


----------



## hooliganjrs

Skratch has to get that post count up to start selling those Seiko mods man 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wandering_Watcher10

Selita make a good movement. My Tag Autavia, Raymond Weil Freelancer, and Maurice Lacroix Aikon have it. All tell superb time and have given me 0 issues.


----------



## smleex

My Oris Aquis has Raymond Weil Maestro both have the SW200 and they keep great time.


----------

