# WW2 Laco-Sport - need help!



## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi all,

I just found this forum - I'm glad it is here. 

I'm a long-time collector of WW2 militaria, with a few watches thrown in over the years. I recently found a WW2 German Laco-sport that I'd like to get back up and running - it has the Laco 524 movement, fixed lugs, full stainless steel body, is marked as waterproof on the back.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157622777846704/

I am running into numerous roadblocks - my local watch guy said that while the watch is generally in OK condition, the mainspring is broken and a replacement is not available, and it needs a full cleaning. He wouldn't (or couldn't) tell me the part number or specs on it.

I found one guy who said he's sell me one just like mine "for parts" for the bargain price of $400. He then offered an alternative, which was for him to buy my watch for $30.00 so he could refurbish it and sell it for $500. I thought he was joking right up until I realized he was serious. I found another guy who had a spring but wouldn't sell it to me unless he could also do a $400 repair and installation.

I'd really like to get this watch up and running - I'd like to do this for hopefully less than the watch would retail for. So, questions:

1. Are mainsprings available for this watch?
2. If mainsprings are not available, can one be made?
3. How much is this watch actually worth running? Non-running?

Thanks!


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2009)

First of all:










The watch is in horrible condition, I wouldn´t even consider to buy it. Restoring it will burn a hole into your pockets.


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

stuffler said:


> First of all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gosh, what a helpful reply.

Internally the watch is in pretty OK condition, and the dial is excellent. Yes, the crystal is scratched, but the watch DID go through WW2. These models are quite collectible, and repaired bring a fair price. According to the local watch guy who looked at it, it's worthy of being repaired if he could find a new mainspring. I'm doing research to find out actual availabilities of a mainspring. Do you have any information about that?


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Have you tried to contact Laco? I had my 1944 B-uhr fixed by them, it was not as expensive as you have been quoted.
Laco's master watch maker is really very good.

Your watch is in an OK condition, IMO well worth restoring. Just be aware that Vintage watches (even PilMil) are much less worth than we would like them to be. The only exceptions are certain Tutima and Hanhart chronos, and the 55mm B-uhren.

You seem to be pretty sure it is a Mil watch. Why?


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> Have you tried to contact Laco? I had my 1944 B-uhr fixed by them, it was not as expensive as you have been quoted.
> Laco's master watch maker is really very good.


Hmm, that's a great idea. I didn't consider it - I collect WW2 optics mostly, and restore them. Despite the fact that many of the original companies that made binoculars and cameras are still in business today, they do not service their pre-1945 items. I assumed the same thing would be true for Laco. I'll contact them!

Thanks.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

The contact at Laco is Mr Peter Pfeiffer at [email protected].
He is also a WUS member (LACO-Pfeiffer)


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

I think you should concentrate on the Optics. ;-)

Just PM me if you want to do that, I can help you dispose of your broken watches......!


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> I think you should concentrate on the Optics. ;-)
> 
> Just PM me if you want to do that, I can help you dispose of your broken watches......!


lol how much? I'd like to keep it though


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

:-! 
I need to keep low on investments, as I have 2 other watch projects in the pipeline!

(and an $$$$$$ house being built as we speak)


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

AH! You got sensible, and want to keep it! Well done!
Do not forget, those watches are getting rarer and rarer.
It is probably not an Issued watch (lacks the markings).
Laco can possibly tell you more about it.
I know it does not make ££ sence to restore stuff like this, but to have a fully functioning (mil) watch is worth a bit, IMO.


What other watches do you have?
BTW, what other WW2 stuff do you have?


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> AH! You got sensible, and want to keep it! Well done!
> Do not forget, those watches are getting rarer and rarer.
> It is probably not an Issued watch (lacks the markings).
> Laco can possibly tell you more about it.
> ...


It is my understanding that these Laco watches were in fact military and that the "DH" markings were reserved for Swiss-made examples, and in fact all three of my "DH" watches are made in Switzerland.

I have a number of military watches, all WW2, including the DH-marked examples. I have a U.S. nurses watch (non-running), and some other random watch stuff. I think the nicest watch I have is a rose gold Omega pocketwatch from around 1900. I have six or seven wristwatches from the 50s and 60s. It's not what I collect primarily however. Mostly I collect German optics from the War and pre-war periods. I have a lot of Flak binoculars as well as the standard Dienstglas models of all different powers.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

You really should take some pics of your watches and post them on the PilMil forum. We love stuff like that!
Also, if you do a similar thread on Vintages Forum (with shots of the movements) you wil get a lot of info there too!


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> You really should take some pics of your watches and post them on the PilMil forum. We love stuff like that!
> Also, if you do a similar thread on Vintages Forum (with shots of the movements) you wil get a lot of info there too!


I'll dig 'em up!


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Ugh, so I talked again to the watch guy who looked at my Laco and he said it's going to be expensive to fix, so I've decided to sell it - If it's worth something I can turn it into more Dienstglas binoculars, which is my real love. I've started it on eBay for a dollar.

*[edited by mod, no links to ebay auctions according to rules & guidelines]*


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Move this to the Sales forum.


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> Move this to the Sales forum.


Can I do that?


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Yes, I think so, just delete your post above and make new one in the Sales Forum.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2009)

According to Konrad Knirim DH ("Deutsches Heer") markings are to be found on all officially issued watches. Most of them have been swiss made. 
B-Uhren haven`t been marked with DH, they< had to fit the requirement of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2009)

Spencer PK said:


> Gosh, what a helpful reply.
> 
> Internally the watch is in pretty OK condition, and the dial is excellent. Yes, the crystal is scratched, but the watch DID go through WW2. These models are quite collectible, and repaired bring a fair price. According to the local watch guy who looked at it, it's worthy of being repaired if he could find a new mainspring. I'm doing research to find out actual availabilities of a mainspring. Do you have any information about that?


Well I just stated what I think. If you don´t like to read it just skip.



















Couldn`t find a Laco 524, could probably be a Durowe movement. Laco 523 basicly was a Durowe 410, Laco 526 was a Durowe 412.


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

I got a GREAT email from Herr Duck, the master watchsmith at Laco - he seemed pretty OK with working on the watch, and fairly confident about being able to get it up and running again. He said that if a mainspring wasn't available he could craft one out of stock, but that this might mean that the watch might only run for 30 hours instead of 36. Even with this and a full rebuild he said it probably should be around 80 Euros! Unbelieveable! 

After talking to my local watchsmith yesterday I was pretty down about the chances for bringing this watch back from the dead. I'll send it off to the Mother Ship in Germany and see what they can do. I'll post updates!

So great suggestion to talk to Laco directly. I'll send it off to him.

The 524 movement in this watch is simpler - not pretty, just a workhorse. Looks like 16 jewels, but it doesn't say.


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Janne said:


> Yes, I think so, just delete your post above and make new one in the Sales Forum.


Actually, I'll hold onto it for now - see my above post


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

stuffler said:


> According to Konrad Knirim DH ("Deutsches Heer") markings are to be found on all officially issued watches. Most of them have been swiss made.
> B-Uhren haven`t been marked with DH, they< had to fit the requirement of the Reichsluftfahrtministerium.


I'm going by what Weselowski said:

*German-made Military watches, unlike their Swiss counterparts, were not stamped with the DH marks according to Military watch historian Z.M. Wesolowski. In his famed "Military Timepieces" book he states "DH" ordnance numbers were never used for German-made Military pieces. Wesolowski: "The wartime German watch companies had no need to mark the watches which they supplied with the DH stamp. The industry was under government control, and any wristwatches that were produced were solely for the use of the Wehrmacht. Since there could never be any dispute as to their authorship, the need to mark them never arose." *

Now, in the world of Dienstglas (military binocular) collecting, there are all kinds of "authorities" who claim one thing or another about this or that - 3-letter maker codes in place of brand marks for example (E. Leitz Wetzlar becoming 'beh'). Some people swear this change was ordered in 1940 so went into effect in 1941, others say all brand-marked binocs must pre-date 1940 etc. A thousand different opinions. I'm sure the world of watch collecting is no different, especially with wartime stuff where the records have gone missing in part or in toto. So I take everything with a grain of salt. I know this Laco-Sport has a military-style dial, was made in the early 40s, and that German-made watches of this period were almost always taken and issued to the Military. The same is true of sniper scopes - supplies were so low that it was quite common to have a supply of commercial hunter scopes taken by the military, and issued to soldiers. There are guys who have claimed for DECADES that this never happened, yet it did. I've held examples in museums myself. It is just common sense to say that in a full-on war economy, you adapt anything you can to help adjust to wartime pressures. So I would assume that the weight is in favor of this being a military used watch. I could be wrong, but who knows. Maybe Laco will know more after I send them the watch.


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## Guest (Nov 11, 2009)

Well a LacoSport wasn`t issued to military units. 

Laco: "Our model LacoSport is inspired by an original Laco watch
manufactured in the 1930s." Laco does not mention the Sport with regards to any military use.

Believe what you want to believe.



Pix by WUS member Axel66


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

You deleted my own response in my own thread??

I'll say it again, and I'll copy it and repost as many times as needed: 

Nothing you quoted there says anything other than to confirm that Laco made a Sport watch in the 1930s. It has no bearing on this conversation, or this watch, or what Laco did during the war. I'm amazed you can be so certain, especially in the face of the quote from Weselowski.

And I'll say it again: you can say "believe what you want to believe" but do so at home, looking into a mirror.

Now, are you going to delete my post again? I've already reported you for abusive behavior, and I'll do it as many times as I have to.


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## Janne (Apr 16, 2007)

Laco will possibly be able to tell you about the "issued" part.
As you have sent it to Laco, means that you have withdrawn it rom the Ebay selling?

Do not orget that the Germans were (and still are) a very ordered country, with precise rules etc.
IMO most military issued stuff had military markings somewhere, be it on the storage box/container, watch case etc. Even the boots were marked (my maternal grandfather had a factory making boots for the Wehrmacht).
I am not sure about the Sniper scopes. In my experience (have sniper training) all military scopes are very specific, as they go on a specific type of mount, on a specific type of rifle. The unit stores them separately, and you just take one rifle, one mount and one scope, assemble everything, some 50 rounds of adjustment and you have to hit a target up to about 1000m (depending on equipment) - one shot -one kill.
This is just not feasible if the scopes are of a too different construction. Just imagine the workshop the Armourer would need, as he needs to be able to repair the stuff.
If museums have different, civilian scopes - creative assembly by the curator.

Yes, the State had total control over the production during the war. But they still produced stuff for the civilian market. Usually they had an order for x number of units to the armed forces, and the specs and price were given. The rest of the production was for the civilians.
Some industries (like Mercedes Benz) had _almost_ 100% military production 1939-1945. But NOT 100%!


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Some info from Laco here: http://www.laco.de/Lacher Geschichte lang.pdf (german only)


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## RandyRP (Jul 26, 2009)

Spencer PK said:


> I got a GREAT email from Herr Duck, the master watchsmith at Laco - he seemed pretty OK with working on the watch, and fairly confident about being able to get it up and running again. He said that if a mainspring wasn't available he could craft one out of stock, but that this might mean that the watch might only run for 30 hours instead of 36. Even with this and a full rebuild he said it probably should be around 80 Euros! Unbelieveable!
> 
> After talking to my local watchsmith yesterday I was pretty down about the chances for bringing this watch back from the dead. I'll send it off to the Mother Ship in Germany and see what they can do. I'll post updates!
> 
> ...


Please do keep us posted. It's awesome to see the are helping you and not taking you to the cleaners price wise too..


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

Spencer PK said:


> Nothing you quoted there says anything other than to confirm that Laco made a Sport watch in the 1930s. It has no bearing on this conversation, or this watch, or what Laco did during the war. I'm amazed you can be so certain, especially in the face of the quote from Weselowski.


This is an interesting thread. Please keep us posted on the progress of your Laco, how long it took to repair it, the costs and what work they did.

As far as this ongoing debate regarding its authenticity, I think you need to take everything with a grain of salt. There are a lot of parasites on places like eBay passing off all kinds of junk as rare WW2 timepieces. If the stuff is so rare, where is this endless supply coming from? And why is most of it coming out of Russia and the Ukraine? Sure there were many prisoners of war and many died there (no doubt none were buried with their watches), but with the quantity constantly available on eBay, you would have thought the war ended last month, not 64 years ago.

Personally, I think you have a civilian issue watch. But, just as you pointed out with sniper scopes, it's absolutely possible that your watch was worn by a serviceman. I'm sure many servicemen wore their own personal watches during the war as reminders of better times. Maybe your watch was on the wrist of a sniper in Stalingrad... or a 65 year-old school teacher. No one will ever know, and its a pointless argument.

The only thing of importance is what value this Laco holds for you. If you feel it's a military artifact, then that's all that matters; in a way you could say anything manufactured during that time period is. I think your watch is a spectacular looking piece, even with the scratched up crystal. I would buy more period watches (I have a DH Arsa and a KM Alpina) myself but they're just so small. And I don't have the budget for the bigger variations (B-Uhrs, Hanharts and Tutimas). What are the dimensions of your watch?

Good luck with your project. |>


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## por44 (Dec 21, 2007)

When I hear the word "project" associated with repairs - I get a little nervous.


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## Uwe W. (Jan 7, 2009)

por44 said:


> When I hear the word "project" associated with repairs - I get a little nervous.


Sorry, let me rephrase that... good luck with your restoration. :-d


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Uwe W. said:


> This is an interesting thread. Please keep us posted on the progress of your Laco, how long it took to repair it, the costs and what work they did.
> 
> Good luck with your project. |>


Thank you for the thoughtful reply - things have given me some odd turns recently. I buy and sell military items, mostly German, mostly optics. Recently I bought a set of WW2 E. Leitz Wetzlar binocs from the war - unit-marked for a Flak battalion that operated in Italy during the war. I talked to the seller, and he had a lot more from the same veteran, a Canadian. I bought the whole collection for essentially nothing - $65. When the box showed up, there was more in there than what the seller had told me, including a stainless steel 1950 Omega "bumper" 351. Working. Military issued - it had the man's service number on the back.

So, long story short: one project watch at a time, and I'll take a working Omega over a totally non-working Laco anytime. I put the Laco up on eBay for $80 and it sold immediately. I sold the majority of the stuff associated with the Canadian veteran and made more than enough to have the Omega serviced, so I should hopefully be getting a 1950 Omega in perfect working condition for free.

Back to the subject of military / non-military - I found a wartime civilian "sport" laco on German eBay with a German military style band but in a blue color. No story on it, non-working, band broken. But a genuine military band, on a small Laco. The seller called it a "ladies watch" because of the small size. Who knows. In the end, unless I was able to get the watch itself to talk, we'll never know.

I do have other project watches to think about though - a 1962 gold Cyma, a 1960 Girrard Perregaux, and going through my collection for something else, I found a WW2-era Waltham military watch - the movement says 6/0 '42 on it along with a serial number. Black face, black hands, red second hand. I'll start a new thread about that watch restoration.


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## zenskar (Feb 26, 2008)

Spencer PK said:


> I got a GREAT email from Herr Duck, the master watchsmith at Laco - he seemed pretty OK with working on the watch, and fairly confident about being able to get it up and running again. He said that if a mainspring wasn't available he could craft one out of stock, but that this might mean that the watch might only run for 30 hours instead of 36. Even with this and a full rebuild he said it probably should be around 80 Euros! Unbelieveable!
> 
> After talking to my local watchsmith yesterday I was pretty down about the chances for bringing this watch back from the dead. I'll send it off to the Mother Ship in Germany and see what they can do. I'll post updates!
> 
> ...


Very interesting. I have a non-working Laco-Sport with a 526 movement. This belonged to my father's uncle who fought for the Wehrmacht. Not sure if it was issued or he bought it, but I do know its provenance (thanks, Dad, and thanks for your 1961 Omega Seamaster 300 b-).) Will try Laco.


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