# Longines VHP 2017 Collection



## ronalddheld

TimeZone : Public Forum » Pre-Basel 2017 - Longines Conquest V.H.P. Collection
Who will buy one?


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> TimeZone : Public Forum » Pre-Basel 2017 - Longines Conquest V.H.P. Collection
> Who will buy one?


Very interested in the 3-handers, depending on price, of course. And the big one: do they have IAHH? Good to see PerpCal, at last.
Nothing about the two movements on the ETA site; hardly surprising as they're Longines-specific.


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## kapahoo

ronalddheld said:


> TimeZone : Public Forum » Pre-Basel 2017 - Longines Conquest V.H.P. Collection
> Who will buy one?


Of course it is dependant on the price but... well... better not promise anything... 

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## quattro98

Doubt I'll get one since I tend to prefer wearing my Grand Seikos over the Certina chrono, but looks like a great addition to the line. Longines has a wider distribution than Certina, so this should be easier to find in the US. Not sure why the WR is only 50 meters and then featured so prominently on the dial. Glad they added a perpetual calendar.


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## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> TimeZone : Public Forum Â» Pre-Basel 2017 - Longines Conquest V.H.P. Collection...


"_These movements have a high degree of precision for an analog watch *(± 5 seconds per year deviation)*._.."
That would be the tightest ever accuracy specification from a Swiss manufacturer!


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## gangrel

Probably too big for me at 41. 

Perhaps the most interesting aspect, tho, is they're asserting 5 SPY. And a wholly new movement series? Checking on ETA's site, I don't see the movement in their Overview. Wonder how long the enhanced battery life will be. 

I think these are gonna be up there, tho. Maybe not GS price point, but I suspect they'll be in that ballpark.


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## shtora

chris01 said:


> Very interested in the 3-handers, depending on price, of course. And the big one: do they have IAHH? Good to see PerpCal, at last.
> Nothing about the two movements on the ETA site; hardly surprising as they're Longines-specific.


IAHH is there: https://www.longines.com/novelties/conquest-vhp

The only watch news that could excite me more would be one of a new Oysterquartz. Finally, a new masterpiece by Longines. The lume looks green, so maybe this one will have real lume. Unfortunately, no human size (36-37mm)...

Here some info on prices and wristshot, showing that the watch is too big : http://www.watchtime.com/wristwatch...gines-conquest-v-h-p-a-new-quartz-revolution/


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## webvan

That's unexpected ! Too bad the price is probably going to be "silly" and like the recent ETA HAQs they're unlikely to be user adjustable...

I wonder why they mention a 400Hz motor, could that mean a sweeping second ?

Also that looks like the first PC HAQ Chronograph ?


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## Ahriman4891

Interesting movement, but why make such a big sporty watch with only 5 atm WR? I'll sit out this round, especially given the impending 100th anniversary of Citizen in 2018 and the Seiko Astron's 50th one in 2019. Maybe they'll issue more models with better WR and slimmer design in the upcoming years.


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## ronalddheld

I informed my AD about these watches. He will get back to me when he has prices and release dates.
I wonder if a three handed person can adjust the new movements?


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## Hans Moleman

Longines must have been very happy with its previous VHP model to re-use it now.

The hands correction was a problem that needed to be solved. There were a few seconds here and there that were unexplained. 

The calibration will be spot on this time?


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## gangrel

Ah, excellent. That page has more info.

I note the movement is on the tall side, a bit, and an uncommon size. Or at least, not a size I remember seeing. 12 1/2''', or if you prefer, 28.2 mm. For the 3 hander. Makes me think we may not see a slim, svelte 38 or 39 mm dress watch using this, which is disappointing. Chrono's basically 30mm, but one needs the size for the subdials. But perhaps this is a forerunner, and the movement line will be expanded, and *possibly* find its way into some Rado models. Rado doesn't, that I can recall, have the HA pedigree, but do have a reasonable track record with quartz. I'd NOT expect these movements to show up inside Tissot or Certina; seems like they can have a nice functionally-based tier structure, with 'basic HAQ' and 'enhanced HAQ'. But one of these movements in a Rado ceramic piece might represent a high-end, high-accuracy model. Ah...found the article finally:

Introducing the Rado True Thinline Colours, an Ultra-Thin Ceramic Watch with a Ceramic Bracelet | Watches By SJX










These are listed at 2000 swiss francs with what's described as a basic ETA quartz movement, so one has to suspect that a combination of this case style and the new movement would be pushing $3000.


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## Tom-HK

I could well be tempted by a three-hander. Shame they couldn't get 200m of water resistance out of it, though.


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## ronalddheld

Maybe a three handed for me...


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## kapahoo

*Longlines VHP 2017 Collection*

A Hydro-version would be nice...

Price-wise, wouldn't the logical thing be somwhere between regular quartz and auto Conquests?

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## dirkpitt73

Maybe there will be a resurgence in Swiss HAQ afterall? I'm shocked and pleasantly surprised. It looks to be drive-by-wire, which is awesome - hoping that means IAHH too. Very nice!


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## gangrel

kapahoo said:


> A Hydro-version would be nice...
> 
> Price-wise, wouldn't the logical thing be somwhere between regular quartz and auto Conquests?


The watchtime article posted on page 1 says $1k for the 3 hander, $2k for the chrono. Somewhat less than I expected.



> Maybe there will be a resurgence in Swiss HAQ afterall? I'm shocked and pleasantly surprised. It looks to be drive-by-wire, which is awesome - hoping that means IAHH too. Very nice!


We can hope, but a) how willing is Swatch to sell HAQs to others...but I'm thinking that this movement *could* mean they'll sell the older ones, because this movement has notable, promotable advantages, b) at what kinda price, and c) how many companies want to add HAQ?

Oh...but of course on another track...

d) will this encourage Ronda to shoot for an HAQ? and e) will this encourage Citizen and Seiko to continue moving forward...or will they simply see this as ETA moving to catch up.

And that is all the microphones that I have...............
<plunk>


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## ronalddheld

If it were a new company selling TC watches I might he more optimistic. Ronda may just want volume sales with their cheap movements. Seiko and Citizen have a different mind-set and may not care enough short of distributing more of what they already produce. So says the nearly opaque ball.


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## nevada1995

very nice, I'll be waiting for more details


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## Time

I'm disappointed at the 50 m. It would of have been nice at least 100 m with screw down crown and back. A V.H.P classic looking diver would be nice at 200 m or 300 m. Also, they could of put the V.H.P on their dress watches just like before in the Flagship collection. This way they will have it in the sport and dress collections.


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## woodville63

Look good. I hope they can get the seconds hand to hit the markers. I found with Longines and Omega HAQs that they weren't as good as Citizen at doing this.


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## kapahoo

1500-2500$ according to:
http://watchesbysjx.com/2017/03/lon...quartz-that-runs-within-5-seconds-a-year.html

Thats a bit too much...

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## chris01

kapahoo said:


> 1500-2500$ according to:
> Longines Introduces the Conquest V.H.P., an Ultra-Accurate Quartz That Runs Within 5 Seconds a Year | Watches By SJX
> 
> Thats a bit too much...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's Singapore dollars, I think.

The cheapest at Swiss francs 950 = US$938 / £772 / €885
The most expensive at SFr 1590 = US$1570 / £1292 / €1482

Not so bad.

Probably plus VAT (~20%) in EU.


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## woodville63

Watch the movie.


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## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> That's Singapore dollars, I think.
> 
> The cheapest at Swiss francs 950 = US$938 / £772 / €885
> The most expensive at SFr 1590 = US$1570 / £1292 / €1482
> 
> Not so bad.
> 
> Probably plus VAT (~20%) in EU.


Glad to be corrected! 

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## hughesyn

Why, oh why, did they ruin the rehaut with additional second markers, AND sub-second markers?

What could possibly be the point of sub-second markers on a 1Hz ticking quartz, other than to see how far out the hand alignment is?

Nice move by Longines, but for that reason I'm out.


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## shtora

The seconds hand ticks once per second in the youtube video.


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## Tom-HK

hughesyn said:


> Nice move by Longines, but for that reason I'm out.


I get what you're saying but in most respects this watch isn't just a step in the right direction but a giant leap. The inclusion of a couple of key features which we had resigned ourselves to never seeing from ETA again - IAHH, perpetual calendar - plus the hand alignment tech and the very pleasing 5 SPY, make this watch an easy choice in my book. For me, proper water resistance and the ability to adjust the rate would be higher priorities than the detail on the rehaut.


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## ronalddheld

Do we know of the user can adjust the rate? At 5 s/y it might not be needed until aging is significant?


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Do we know of the user can adjust the rate? At 5 s/y it might not be needed until aging is significant?


Since this is almost certainly a PreciDrive-based movement (with an upgrade from the original PowerDrive rate from 200 to 400 Hz) the chance of it being end-user adjustable is approximately zero.

My only practical experience of ageing (or some other form of rate drift) is with my original 1986 Ti VHP (basic 3-hand + date) which ran at a steady +2 SPY for 5 years and then slowly deteriorated to around +6 to +7 when it was 24 years old. However I've experienced later, used, VHP PerpCal models that were running at least +48 when I received them.


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## chris01

woodville63 said:


> Look good. I hope they can get the seconds hand to hit the markers. I found with Longines and Omega HAQs that they weren't as good as Citizen at doing this.


The big difference between the Swiss and Japanese movements is in the number of motors. Citizen (I think) and Oceanus RC (I know) use a separate motor to drive the second hand, while the two ETA PC movements drive the three H/M/S hands with one motor and a gear train. The other ETA motor runs the date display. The new 3-hand has three motors, so the second hand may get better treatment.


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## tsteph12

I very much like the look of the three hand versions, but will not likely purchase given WR of only 5 bar.


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## tmathes

My guess is the +/- 5 sec. /yr. is tighter trimming and/or perhaps a temp test added in production. Or it could be test sorting going on. Since Longines often sell for more than Certinas Swatch can afford to do this on the pricer product.

I make this assumption based on my experience in the semiconductor industry (I'm a chip designer). It's called 'speed binning' for parts like microprocessors and memory chips. The parts that test as fastest get stamped with the fast sort markings and the customer is charged accordingly. Same design between slower and faster parts but at test you 'weed' out the slow parts from the fast that happen due to manufacturing process variation. I'm guessing same thing is going on here: no new movement design, just picking the best of the lot.


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## 0b5cur1ty

Great to see this from Longines/ETA. The black dialled 3-hander is very interesting... Just a shame its so big.


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## gangrel

tmathes said:


> My guess is the +/- 5 sec. /yr. is tighter trimming and/or perhaps a temp test added in production. Or it could be test sorting going on. Since Longines often sell for more than Certinas Swatch can afford to do this on the pricer product.
> 
> I make this assumption based on my experience in the semiconductor industry (I'm a chip designer). It's called 'speed binning' for parts like microprocessors and memory chips. The parts that test as fastest get stamped with the fast sort markings and the customer is charged accordingly. Same design between slower and faster parts but at test you 'weed' out the slow parts from the fast that happen due to manufacturing process variation. I'm guessing same thing is going on here: no new movement design, just picking the best of the lot.


Anyone who's been into building their own computers knows all about speed binning.  And IIRC, Seiko's supposed to do the same thing.

And it probably is true that the first stages aren't any different. There might be improvements in the TC aspect, but that doesn't invalidate your point in my book. The later stages are new, tho; it's got the perp calendar, for one thing. The drive aspects, as have been noted, appear to be different, likely to support the shock-correction capability.


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## John MS

Nice to see the 3 hand VHP in production with 5 spy accuracy. I like the design with a couple of exceptions. The size is just too darned big for my wrists and the extra seconds track on the bezel makes the dial a bit too busy. My wallet will likely stay closed.


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## ronalddheld

Almost all new watches are too large for my small wrists. I just have to decide on a case by case basis, although weight is far more critical.


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## GlennO

I might be tempted by the 3 hander with blue dial. But I'll have to find the L2L length. I suspect that it will be too long for me.


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## Borys Bozzor Pawliw

With Longines suggested prices, you can pretty much take 20% off without debate, and you may even manage to get them to go around 30%+ off. That is the usual story with the Longines/Rado/Tissot retailers. However, if these models make a hit, then it may be only 20% off, if that. Good value though even at that.


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## YoureTerrific

I'm genuinely excited about these. Would this movement be Switzerland's most precise mass-produced movement ever?


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## asr53

I don't get it a lot of people talk of the watch being to big, i have small wrists and wear a breitling seawolf 45mm its not to big for my wrist, and i can read the time easily, i have many quartz 42-44mm watches, i have never understood why folk like small watches, there is a limit granted, say a Breitling super ocean avenger at 48mm or a 50mm that would be a step to far, but 41 -45 most watches are in that sizes nowadays. For me i like to have a watch that have presents on the wrist, easy for me to read as well as i get older eyesight ect. So rolex i always thought of small for such expensive watches, i guess its all about taste, but like i say i have a small wrist and 41 or 45mm i have no problem with.


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## Tom-HK

YoureTerrific said:


> I'm genuinely excited about these. Would this movement be Switzerland's most precise mass-produced movement ever?


To the best of my knowledge, yes. In fact, I cannot think of ANY Swiss watch - even limited editions and watches from small, independent manufacturers - that have spec'd to better than 10 SPY.

Outside of Switzerland, of course, Citizen, Grand Seiko, Morgenwerk and Hoptroff have all trod in this territory before, but for this to be coming from the Swatch group is truly exciting. The Swiss establishment once again taking HAQ seriously!


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## G. I.

chris01 said:


> Since this is almost certainly a PreciDrive-based movement (with an upgrade from the original PowerDrive rate from 200 to 400 Hz) the chance of it being end-user adjustable is approximately zero.


Which ±5spy HAQ movements are user adjustable?


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## Tom-HK

G. I. said:


> Which ±5spy HAQ movements are user adjustable?


Vintage ones! Seiko 9983 and Citizen 7370, for starters. In modern watches, only the limited edition 5 SPY Grand Seiko cal. 9Fs are user adjustable.


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## ppaulusz

Tom-HK said:


> Vintage ones! Seiko 9983 and Citizen 7370, for starters. In modern watches, only the limited edition 5 SPY Grand Seiko cal. 9Fs are user adjustable.


Also the Seiko Cal.9980 (±5spy) & Cal.9681 (±5spy) and the Citizen Cal.8650 (±3spy)!


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## yankeexpress

"LongLines" trademark is owned by AT&T. I worked on their ship Long Lines.


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## kapahoo

asr53 said:


> I don't get it a lot of people talk of the watch being to big, i have small wrists and wear a breitling seawolf 45mm its not to big for my wrist, and i can read the time easily, i have many quartz 42-44mm watches, i have never understood why folk like small watches, there is a limit granted, say a Breitling super ocean avenger at 48mm or a 50mm that would be a step to far, but 41 -45 most watches are in that sizes nowadays. For me i like to have a watch that have presents on the wrist, easy for me to read as well as i get older eyesight ect. So rolex i always thought of small for such expensive watches, i guess its all about taste, but like i say i have a small wrist and 41 or 45mm i have no problem with.


Agree. Also very much dependant of the bezel thickness, dial details, the lugs and the over all feel.

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## 0b5cur1ty

asr53 said:


> I don't get it a lot of people talk of the watch being to big ... i guess its all about taste, but like i say i have a small wrist and 41 or 45mm i have no problem with.


You've answered your own point there. ;-) For many, like you, it will not be too big but for those of us who prefer a 'classical' wristwatch size (say, somewhere around the 35mm mark) this, in common with most current wristwatches, is pretty huge. I like the styling of the plain black dial model but 43mm is just too much for me. :-(


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## asr53

I suppose you cannot please everyone, i see folk already moaning it does not have this or should have that, i think Logines amongst others are doing fine, lots of watches and lots of choices = spoilt for choice.:-!​


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## dicioccio

Watches, being wearable objects, are subjects to fashion ad style, which change over time. Nowadays wristwatches tend to be big to be visible and appear just as every other accessory. If you introduce a new watch during these days, you must consider that. Seiko and Citizen have their own "consolidated" lineup and tend therefore to be more conservative and classical.

Even if I don't like these new Longines, it is good to see producers trying to do something different, otherwise we would have a maket filled with all similar models...


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## G. I.

Tom-HK said:


> Vintage ones! Seiko 9983 and Citizen 7370, for starters. In modern watches, only the limited edition 5 SPY Grand Seiko cal. 9Fs are user adjustable.





ppaulusz said:


> Also the Seiko Cal.9980 (±5spy) & Cal.9681 (±5spy) and the Citizen Cal.8650 (±3spy)!


Thanks, so it seems this feature went out of fashion unfortunately...


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## webvan

More to the point, which current HAQ movements are user adjustable ? That would be something like zero I think...Well I suppose the 9Fs are, but with a limited range and very few have tried and reported on it here, actually I can't think of anyone apart from dwjquest What Can Be Accomplished in Regulation?

I for one will not be buying an HAQ that I can't regulate as I've found the drift to be pretty significant over the years and I already have too many anyway...

PS - can someone fix the spelling of LONGINES in the title, this is after all a forum for people interested in accuracy ;-)


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## Tom-HK

webvan said:


> More to the point, which current HAQ movements are user adjustable ? That would be something like zero I think...Well I suppose the 9Fs are, but with a limited range and very few have tried and reported on it here, actually I can't think of anyone apart from dwjquest What Can Be Accomplished in Regulation?
> 
> I for one will not be buying an HAQ that I can't regulate as I've found the drift to be pretty significant over the years and I already have too many anyway...
> 
> PS - can someone fix the spelling of LONGINES in the title, this is after all a forum for people interested in accuracy ;-)


I have regulated my 9F very successfully. Twiddle the little wheel and each increment is 8 SPY. Far easier than the highly sensitive analogue systems of Seikos and Citizens of old. The point is a good one, though. The old generation of VHPs weren't especially difficult to adjust (except where you had to move a large, ten-year cell to get at the regulation nodes). But the modern breed of HAQ movements just seem designed to ensure the continued existence of the service centre cash cow. After a dreadful experience with Citizen's service efforts I, too, now shudder at the thought of buying a new HAQ that I wouldn't be able to regulate myself. I still might get a new VHP, though, as (Grand Seiko aside) I don't think there's likely to be much of an alternative if I want a new HAQ in the future.


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## chris01

One caveat about the 5 SPY: this may rely on a defined wearing pattern, as do specified accuracy claims for some other TC watches. The detailed spec and/or user manual will need careful study if/when they appear. Since 'perfect' TC is almost unachievable, a modified wearing routine may provide a partial solution to the absence of formal regulation by the end user. I believe that the latter feature is now gone forever in new TC watches.


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## webvan

Hum...that would be bad news but then could explain how they get to +/- 5 spy compared to the of the +/- 0.0055spd (or +/- 20 spy) of the Omega 1680.

On the other hand Citizen and Seiko have (always ?) resorted to that wearing pattern trick if memory serves so I suppose ETA couldn't be blamed if they were to play that game too.


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## chris01

webvan said:


> Hum...that would be bad news but then could explain how they get to +/- 5 spy compared to the of the +/- 0.0055spd (or +/- 20 spy) of the Omega 1680.
> 
> On the other hand Citizen and Seiko have (always ?) resorted to that wearing pattern trick if memory serves so I suppose ETA couldn't be blamed if they were to play that game too.


Certina's PreciDrive watch user manuals refer to +/-10 SPY *under normal conditions of use*.


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## webvan

Whereas no conditions were specified for the 1680 (although there is a reference to temperature above for "Quartz Watches" :


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## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> Certina's PreciDrive watch user manuals refer to +/-10 SPY *under normal conditions of use*.


My impression (from my ds-8 and reading this forum) is that they usually hit just outside that range. But thats another topic....

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## DaveM

Looks good
>5s per year
>Perpetual calendar
>3 motors so easy independent time-zone (hour-hand) set
>Detects shocks or problems and re-aligns the hands. Perhaps the line-up to minute-markers will be very good.

What has improved over the VHP perpetual-Calendar introduced about 20 years ago ?
>5s per year (original 12s)
>3 motors and auto hand-align
What is worse
>5 year battery-life (original 10 years)

With 20 years improvement in semiconductors you would have thought that they could have either
>achieved the same or better battery life
or
>included recharge (solar or watch-motion)

Perhaps the dealers object to a feature which eliminates part of their revenue-stream
Did the original VHP battery really last 10years ? I think that mine did, but have not kept records.


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## chris01

DaveM said:


> What is worse
> >5 year battery-life (original 10 years)
> 
> With 20 years improvement in semiconductors you would have thought that they could have either
> >achieved the same or better battery life
> or
> >included recharge (solar or watch-motion)
> 
> Perhaps the dealers object to a feature which eliminates part of their revenue-stream
> Did the original VHP battery really last 10years ? I think that mine did, but have not kept records.


Depends on the battery. The original Ti VHP had a "5-year" 371/SR920 1.5V silver oxide battery, and this was certainly correct, as mine lived through four 5-year batteries. This watch was too small to accommodate the CR2016 3V lithium (which probably didn't even exist in the mid-80s) used in the later perp.cal. models. These may well do 10 years but I have not had any of them long enough yet.

The 394/SR396 1.5V in the Certina DS-2 PreciDrive chrono is supposed to last 5 years so this may be similar to what Longines are now using, and maybe PreciDrive technology wants only 1.5 volts, and not 3. For a 10-year life they would certainly need a 20mm lithium in the new watches. Of course, they may just be trying to keep the thickness down.


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## chris01

kapahoo said:


> My impression (from my ds-8 and reading this forum) is that they usually hit just outside that range. But thats another topic....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With daily wear my DS-2 chrono runs +5 to +6 SPY. Unworn it's a lot faster, probably 10 to 12. Unusually, it's faster when colder; all my other TC watches are slowed a bit by cold.


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## wchsailor

I do not understand why just 50 meters WR. Everything else, awesome


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## asr53

wchsailor said:


> I do not understand why just 50 meters WR. Everything else, awesome


50meters or 150 feet, do folk really need it to go any further, do they want to dive deeper than 150 feet, then a dedicated divers watch would be better.


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## gangrel

WR is misleading at best, but 50m WR is considered adequate for showering and swimming. The issue is the disconnect between how they styled the watch, and ONLY giving it 50m. It's a sport watch on a bracelet; going for the 100m certainly can be supported. Put the movement into a 39mm with a sunburst dial on bracelet, and 50m is probably above average.


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## ronalddheld

Any idea of the weight of these watches, since they have SS bracelets?


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## gangrel

I scanned through the release announcements...Longines' site and several of the review sites...couldn't see weight mentioned. But, it's not gonna be released for 4 months or so, and I don't think we're seeing final watches sent out for reviews. We'll probably have to wait for a few more months.


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## ronalddheld

gangrel said:


> I scanned through the release announcements...Longines' site and several of the review sites...couldn't see weight mentioned. But, it's not gonna be released for 4 months or so, and I don't think we're seeing final watches sent out for reviews. We'll probably have to wait for a few more months.


Unlikely any new releases will mention the weight. Maybe when they are in the official website and for sale?


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## gangrel

ronalddheld said:


> Unlikely any new releases will mention the weight. Maybe when they are in the official website and for sale?


My feeling as well. If not for sale, once the release date (and final form) is locked in. Figure they'll be sending out journalist samples for review too, before the release, and at least some reviewers will weigh it. (Some others might just report whatever Longines says.)

If they set up a pre-order link, I'd certainly expect the weight at that point.

But we know the answer. Heavy-ish from the bracelet. I would wonder what the weight of the head alone is. For quartz, it's probably on the hefty side.


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## kapahoo

Journalist samples:
http://www.ablogtowatch.com/longines-conquest-vhp-high-precision-watches/

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## shtora

kapahoo said:


> Journalist samples:
> Longines Conquest VHP 'Very High Precision' Watches Return | aBlogtoWatch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This confirms some good news: the use of C3 luminova and the case sides are curvy, similar to Conquest Classic.


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## ronalddheld

gangrel said:


> My feeling as well. If not for sale, once the release date (and final form) is locked in. Figure they'll be sending out journalist samples for review too, before the release, and at least some reviewers will weigh it. (Some others might just report whatever Longines says.)
> 
> If they set up a pre-order link, I'd certainly expect the weight at that point.
> 
> But we know the answer. Heavy-ish from the bracelet. I would wonder what the weight of the head alone is. For quartz, it's probably on the hefty side.


Probably too heavy for me. Maybe a strap can be swapped in?


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## chris01

With the considerable interest in these new watches I thought it would be useful to provide an accessible collection of all the published data. If anyone has any more verified info, please let me know and I'll update the table.

The model numbers for the two sizes appear to be the same; this seems likely to change. The price is in Swiss Francs, including Swiss VAT.


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## gangrel

ronalddheld said:


> Probably too heavy for me. Maybe a strap can be swapped in?


Looked like it. Bracelet looked to have end links. But I'm not at all sure it'll look right on leather. Rubber might work, actually, at least with some dials. Carbon fiber strap for the carbon fiber dial, maybe. BUT, saying that...it makes the 50m WR that much more disappointing.

I think I'll wait for the Midos.  If Swatch reserves these for Longines...foolish, IMO...and Longines goes with these, and Hydroconquests (that'd make sense, but have no appeal for me)...no big deal. I don't *need* more watches of any stripe, and my trio, plus the Pulsar and the RF Seiko, fill the needs.

A side of this that we haven't mentioned. I hate to phrase it like this, but these models are high-end HAQ...the additional functionality, and a chrono? Can the more historically knowledgeable among us point to a prior *chrono* HAQ? 5 SPY and perp calendar offer more direct challenges to the A010, A060, and 9Fs. Aesthetically, these are no challenge whatsoever to The Citizen or GS...but those are *arch* conservative, visually. Still, the price difference can't be ignored. Are these going to push our Asian favorites to respond...on features where necessary, on price, on styles?


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## webvan

Yes I already mentioned that before, AFAIK it's the first HAQ Chronograph with a PC.


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## gangrel

Yes. Silly me, of course. Certina has 10 SPY chronographs. I need more sleep, clearly. Fitting today.........


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## ronalddheld

DST is a mental problem just not a watch reset problem.
I see no problem with 60 m WR as I never bathe or swim with my watches. 
Maybe a rubber strap with the carbon fiber dial?


----------



## gangrel

The carbon fiber would probably work well with rubber. The blue might work well on denim or blue canvas. Seat belt NATO...the seat belt material isn't glossy the way the standard nylon is. Suede might play better, or a distressed leather, than a cordovan or high-polish leather like Chromexcel.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> With daily wear my DS-2 chrono runs +5 to +6 SPY. Unworn it's a lot faster, probably 10 to 12. Unusually, it's faster when colder; all my other TC watches are slowed a bit by cold.


Try double that. My DS-2 is more like 25 sec/yr. I've had it a year later this month, it's gained 24 seconds as of last week. I used the IAHH to change date and DST changes. Good enough for me but I do wear it around once per week, it gets a lot more wrist time than any other watch in my collection.

My DS-8 on the other hand is around 15-16 sec/yr.


----------



## webvan

That would annoy me to no end...have you bugged Certina about it considering it's out of specs? I (and djwquest if memory serves) remember wasting time and money trying to get Bulova to regulate the Precisionist piece of crap they sold with 10 spy accuracy back in 2010 only to be told that accuracy varied with temperature§


----------



## gangrel

webvan said:


> That would annoy me to no end...have you bugged Certina about it considering it's out of specs? I (and djwquest if memory serves) remember wasting time and money trying to get Bulova to regulate the Precisionist piece of crap they sold with 10 spy accuracy back in 2010 only to be told that accuracy varied with temperature§


That may not be out of spec. COSC is 0.07 seconds per day, which is 25 SPY. IIRC, that's all they assert with the .411 movements.

And the 262K movements are considered borderline here, because of the temperature issue. They aren't TC. Mr. Moderator mentioned in another thread that Bulova's taken the accuracy claim down from their web pages, which IIRC has been mentioned before. Gotta love fine print, right?


----------



## Hans Moleman

webvan said:


> That would annoy me to no end...have you bugged Certina about it considering it's out of specs? I (and djwquest if memory serves) remember wasting time and money trying to get Bulova to regulate the Precisionist piece of crap they sold with 10 spy accuracy back in 2010 only to be told that accuracy varied with temperature§


Agreed!

If a company promises are not fulfilled, you have a right to recourse:
Send it back.

To Longines' credit, I did not see many weasel words in the promotional material so far.


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> That may not be out of spec. COSC is 0.07 seconds per day, which is 25 SPY. IIRC, that's all they assert with the .411 movements.
> 
> And the 262K movements are considered borderline here, because of the temperature issue. They aren't TC. Mr. Moderator mentioned in another thread that Bulova's taken the accuracy claim down from their web pages, which IIRC has been mentioned before. Gotta love fine print, right?


I won't bother sending in the DS-2. With Swatch Group's lousy service reputation out of the NJ facility (the only Certina warranty location listed in the US) I do not want to take a chance. Getting 10 sec/yr improvement just is not worth the risk.

As for the Bulovas, I have two 262kHz powered watches, their moon watch and a 3 hander Accutron II. The moon watch has been within more like +5-6 sec./yr with a similar wear pattern as my DS-2. The Accutron II is more like +10 sec/yr. with that wear pattern. So far it's very much beating the 5 sec/month claim (which is the new 'spec' in Bulova manuals).


----------



## PeterG_SVK

wchsailor said:


> I do not understand why just 50 meters WR. Everything else, awesome


Because of starting point for new 200m WR Omega's Seamaster using the same movement  (just a guess, of course). Omega is above Longines in Swatch Group ranking. Makes it sense?


----------



## Ahriman4891

PeterG_SVK said:


> Because of starting point for new 200m WR Omega's Seamaster using the same movement  (just a guess, of course). Omega is above Longines in Swatch Group ranking. Makes it sense?


If your guess is correct, there may be an Omega in my future (I actually said it, wow). They could still make the Longines VHP 100m, it should have been reasonably easy. I suspect the "magic crown" is the culprit behind low WR.


----------



## chris01

Ahriman4891 said:


> I suspect the "magic crown" is the culprit behind low WR.


That's a clear possibility, although having a rather busy crown didn't prevent the old Conquest VHP PCs having 10 and 20 bar WR. The Flagship with the same movement was only 3 bar, however, as the back was a push fit rather than screwed.


----------



## Deity42

I am really impressed with these, especially the three handers and price point!

I am going to wait to see if they put the movement in a more dressier model. The Conquest styling is a little too much for me. I'd like to put this on a strap to make it less sporty/more every day, but those lugs look huge. Would have to evaluate in-hand.


----------



## gangrel

PeterG_SVK said:


> Because of starting point for new 200m WR Omega's Seamaster using the same movement  (just a guess, of course). Omega is above Longines in Swatch Group ranking. Makes it sense?


Not really. Omega's almost completely abandoned quartz on the mens' side. They're almost completely committed to the co-axials. There's one AT, and the X-33; that's all I can recall. X-33 has all those other features; they won't bother with WR as the separator. Mind: it might make sense if *Longines* wants to do Hydroconquests with 200m, as has been suggested. I'm just not sure where Longines' design people think this watch will fit, or who/what it's for. Wouldn't surprise me that the chrono is the more successful, actually.


----------



## chris01

gangrel said:


> Not really. Omega's almost completely abandoned quartz on the mens' side. They're almost completely committed to the co-axials. There's one AT, and the X-33; that's all I can recall. X-33 has all those other features; they won't bother with WR as the separator. Mind:  it might make sense if *Longines* wants to do Hydroconquests with 200m, as has been suggested. I'm just not sure where Longines' design people think this watch will fit, or who/what it's for. Wouldn't surprise me that the chrono is the more successful, actually.


Yes, don't forget that Longines already have three new technology chrono calibres, of which the L440 and L442 are PreciDrive. The L441 may be PreciDrive but is almost certainly a PowerDrive derivative. This one is their bizarre highly specialised horse jumping model.

L440 has the same functionality as the DS-2 chrono, so is most likely an ETA 251.264. L442 is the ETA 251.294. L441 = who knows? 

The L440 and L442 Conquest and HydroConquest models all have 30 bar WR. The Horse Jumping chrono, L441, is 5 bar.


----------



## gangrel

chris01 said:


> Yes, don't forget that Longines already have three new technology chrono calibres, of which the L440 and L442 are PreciDrive. The L441 may be PreciDrive but is almost certainly a PowerDrive derivative. This one is their bizarre highly specialised horse jumping model.
> 
> L440 has the same functionality as the DS-2 chrono, so is most likely an ETA 251.264. L442 is the ETA 251.294. L441 = who knows?
> 
> The L440 and L442 Conquest and HydroConquest models all have 30 bar WR. The Horse Jumping chrono, L441, is 5 bar.


So it would all fit together.

a) Add non-chronograph HAQ to the Longines catalog to fill a gap
b) Better than the lower-level Swatch movements
c) go one-up on Seiko 
d) the new chronograph model keeps equivalent performance, which is better for branding, and means the extra expenses for the new tricks are spread over more offerings.

So a plausible inference is the existing Hydro HAQs are soon to be replaced to complete the alignment process.


----------



## chris01

As there seems to be nothing new from Basel to add to the official launch, here is my updated table.
The model numbers are now correct - they were all buried deep in the Press Kit.


----------



## Verdict

Love the prices on the 3 hander, street price and grey market should be lower.


----------



## chris01

Towards the end of this interview (4m18s), Walter von Känel talks about the new VHPs:


----------



## gangrel

Interesting news there was the release date...July earliest, September latest.


----------



## ronalddheld

Looking forward to forum members buying and evaluating the new VHPs.


----------



## kapahoo

gangrel said:


> Interesting news there was the release date...July earliest, September latest.


The Ablogtowatch interview said hopefully september.

http://www.ablogtowatch.com/longines-conquest-vhp-high-precision-watches/?amp

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## webvan

Thanks for the link, guy's on top of things, you don't mak'em like that anymore ;-)


----------



## chris01

kapahoo said:


> The Ablogtowatch interview said hopefully september.
> 
> Longines Conquest VHP 'Very High Precision' Watches Return | aBlogtoWatch
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, VP says September, Pres says July-September.
At least they have had publicly visible working watches since their first announcement, unlike the MorgenWerk story. 
I'm 90% convinced I want one; just have to shift an older VHP to make a space!


----------



## ronalddheld

I would need a shake or two of the money tree to buy one in that time frame.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Well, VP says September, Pres says July-September.
> At least they have had publicly visible working watches since their first announcement, unlike the MorgenWerk story.
> I'm 90% convinced I want one; just have to shift an older VHP to make a space!


Funny how Longines considers the lack of any connection, a desirable feature.









Sign of the times, I guess.

BTW. Who would have guessed that's the way to pronounce Longines? From the horse's mouth.


----------



## ajsthe3

These things are gonna be sick. Definitely checking it out in the metal as soon as I can. And at those prices with those dials...probably gonna be in the watch box.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Funny how Longines considers the lack of any connection, a desirable feature.
> 
> View attachment 11322210
> 
> 
> Sign of the times, I guess.
> 
> BTW. Who would have guessed that's the way to pronounce Longines? From the horse's mouth.


I struggle to think of any other way to pronounce it.


----------



## Verdict

Black or white for the 3 hand model?


----------



## GlennO

Verdict said:


> Black or white for the 3 hand model?


Blue ;-)


----------



## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> Well, VP says September, Pres says July-September.
> At least they have had publicly visible working watches since their first announcement, unlike the MorgenWerk story.
> I'm 90% convinced I want one; just have to shift an older VHP to make a space!


Best case: november then! 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

Hans Moleman said:


> Funny how Longines considers the lack of any connection, a desirable feature.
> 
> View attachment 11322210
> 
> 
> Sign of the times, I guess.
> 
> BTW. Who would have guessed that's the way to pronounce Longines? From the horse's mouth.


Watching the videoChris posted, it operates similarly to many Citizens. I have two Citizens that are not coupled mechanically to the crown and I vastly prefer it to the pure mechanical coupling to the crown. It also eliminates my issue with IAHH in a mechanical coupling: hour hand is never aligned correctly and can break over time. Both my IAHH watches with ETA movements (Omega AT with the Omega 8500, Certina DS-2 chrono with Precidrive) do not hit the hour markers properly on the hour. None of my "normal" watches have the issue out of the box. Plus changing the date in those watches is a complete pain, I feel like I'm hastening a costly repair.


----------



## Hans Moleman

tmathes said:


> Watching the videoChris posted, it operates similarly to many Citizens. I have two Citizens that are not coupled mechanically to the crown and I vastly prefer it to the pure mechanical coupling to the crown. It also eliminates my issue with IAHH in a mechanical coupling: hour hand is never aligned correctly and can break over time. Both my IAHH watches with ETA movements (Omega AT with the Omega 8500, Certina DS-2 chrono with Precidrive) do not hit the hour markers properly on the hour. None of my "normal" watches have the issue out of the box. Plus changing the date in those watches is a complete pain, I feel like I'm hastening a costly repair.


I read 'no connexion' as no Bluetooth, no internet.
But you're interpretation, smart crown, may be what was meant.

That's language for you. The reader makes up what suits best.

Maybe not


----------



## tmathes

Hans Moleman said:


> I read 'no connexion' as no Bluetooth, no internet.
> But you're interpretation, smart crown, may be what was meant.
> 
> That's language for you. The reader makes up what suits best.
> 
> Maybe not


You're likely right regarding the 'no connection'. But the crown is not coupled mechanically to the movement, from the video Chris posted it seems to be like the Citizens I own, motor driven. For an IAHH I vastly prefer that to what is offered in the Precidrive, this is definitely not like the movements in the Certinas to date.

Looks promising. What I still don't care for is the large Arabic numerals but that's just me.


----------



## gangrel

I presumed it meant it didn't connect to a phone. The mechanical connection tmathes mentions, is too esoteric a feature for a VP to bring up. This is from the Le Temps article, translated by Google:



> For Longines, this lack of relationship with the connected universe becomes like a selling point. "No connection" is one of the first indications that appears during the presentation. And Juan-Carlos Capelli insists: "This watch has the advantage of not dealing with any of the constraints of the connection. It should not be recharged, it emits no wave and does not make absolutely dependent ... "


None of this is new. Those are the standard negatives everyone mentions WRT smartwatches.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> You're likely right regarding the 'no connection'. But the crown is not coupled mechanically to the movement, from the video Chris posted it seems to be like the Citizens I own, motor driven. For an IAHH I vastly prefer that to what is offered in the Precidrive, this is definitely not like the movements in the Certinas to date.
> 
> Looks promising. What I still don't care for is the large Arabic numerals but that's just me.


The crown appears to be 'drive by wire', completely decoupled from the mechanicals, like the Citizen Exceed E510 I owned, which was the most technically advanced HAQ I've seen. I just hope that the two-speed crown operation is better than the PoS Aerospace.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> The crown appears to be 'drive by wire', completely decoupled from the mechanicals, like the Citizen Exceed E510 I owned, which was the most technically advanced HAQ I've seen. I just hope that the two-speed crown operation is better than the PoS Aerospace.


From the video you posted the action looked very similar to how Citizen pulls it off so it should operate nicely.

With the volumes mentioned by the exec in the video my guess is you can pick one up new for a nice discount if you're willing to wait.


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> ...*** Aerospace....


Much appreciated word of caution that.


----------



## tmathes

One item that's curious in a video I saw regarding the watch: when the battery runs out you might have to send it a Swatch service center for replacement due to the perpetual calendar reset (again, that's implied in the video). 

If true, then that's a deal-breaker for me. I have a Citizen with a perpetual calendar function (not an RC watch) and it's easy to set the perpetual calendar on it. If I have to send in a quartz watch for a battery change forget it, especially at Swatch service center prices.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Much appreciated word of caution that.


In reality, you can't hate an inanimate object, but that came as close as possible.


----------



## Hans Moleman

tmathes said:


> One item that's curious in a video I saw regarding the watch: when the battery runs out you might have to send it a Swatch service center for replacement due to the perpetual calendar reset (again, that's implied in the video).
> 
> If true, then that's a deal-breaker for me. I have a Citizen with a perpetual calendar function (not an RC watch) and it's easy to set the perpetual calendar on it. If I have to send in a quartz watch for a battery change forget it, especially at Swatch service center prices.


I can't remember where I read it, but you have something like 6 months to replace the battery after it runs out.
The calendar supposedly keep running fine during that time.

6 months? I can't remember precisely. A fair period.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> One item that's curious in a video I saw regarding the watch: when the battery runs out you might have to send it a Swatch service center for replacement due to the perpetual calendar reset (again, that's implied in the video).
> 
> If true, then that's a deal-breaker for me. I have a Citizen with a perpetual calendar function (not an RC watch) and it's easy to set the perpetual calendar on it. If I have to send in a quartz watch for a battery change forget it, especially at Swatch service center prices.


You raise an interesting point. The old VHP PC models, with 10-year battery, always retain the calendar intact during a change (unless you fiddle with the calibration), and it isn't difficult to reset it if you have the instructions. The new one may be OK - see the third paragraph on this page: Longines Conquest VHP 'Very High Precision' Watches Return | Page 2 of 2 | aBlogtoWatch - but this refers specifically to keeping the calendar for 6 months when the battery runs down. Of course there's not much point in doing that if it's going to dump the calendar as soon as you finally replace the battery. Obviously something to be checked when more info becomes available.


----------



## marker2037

Hans Moleman said:


> I can't remember where I read it, but you have something like 6 months to replace the battery after it runs out.
> The calendar supposedly keep running fine during that time.
> 
> 6 months? I can't remember precisely. A fair period.


6 months is correct. When the battery dies, all hands go to zero, but the perpetual calendar still has enough juice to be powered for 6 months. I'd say that's plenty of time to get a battery changed.

I'm not even a quartz fan (sorry guys, I only own one, my Victorinox), but the tech and design of this watch has me drooling over it. I've always loved the style of the Conquest and combine this tech with the new design of the dials and I'm pretty much sold on having one in the collection. No more needing to check an atomic clock 

Blue and white (TBD) 3 hander in 41mm thank you very much.


----------



## Trevor M

Quite impressed with these Longines.


----------



## tmathes

marker2037 said:


> 6 months is correct. When the battery dies, all hands go to zero, but the perpetual calendar still has enough juice to be powered for 6 months. I'd say that's plenty of time to get a battery changed.


I read that also but what happens with NO voltage applied? A spent battery usually has some residual energy in it, unlike an open circuit. Remove it and then the entire thing stops, don't know if the calendar info is gone too (ie it's in volatile memory).

If it freezes the date when you change the battery then great. I do know of some watches that require you send them in for a battery change if it has a perpetual calendar. One that comes to mind is one of the Timex IQ watches. I thought that was ridiculous, especially considering the target market changes their own battery or will go to a local Walmart/Target to get it done for them while they wait.


----------



## chris01

Minor updates, but good to see some prices and estimated dates from a UK AD.
April 2017 does seem a bit unlikely for the L3.727.4.76.6, though!


----------



## Avantgardetime17

chris01 said:


> The crown appears to be 'drive by wire', completely decoupled from the mechanicals, like the Citizen Exceed E510 I owned, which was the most technically advanced HAQ I've seen. I just hope that the two-speed crown operation is better than the PoS Aerospace.


Chris I do not understand your dislike of the Aerospace. It is one of my favorite watches of all time and I have owned my share of nice pieces ranging from HEQ Citizen Chronomaster, GS 9F all the way to Grand Seiko Spring Drives. Love them all but the Aerospace is really special to me.

Never had an issue with it. Maybe I am lucky?


----------



## chris01

Avantgardetime17 said:


> Chris I do not understand your dislike of the Aerospace. It is one of my favorite watches of all time and I have owned my share of nice pieces ranging from HEQ Citizen Chronomaster, GS 9F all the way to Grand Seiko Spring Drives. Love them all but the Aerospace is really special to me.
> 
> Never had an issue with it. Maybe I am lucky?


I'll make one more off-topic comment. To me it's the worst-designed, overhyped piece of garbage I ever owned. I'm not going to waste any more electrons on listing all my issues with it.


----------



## chris01

Minor update. Jura are now showing list prices for all 16 models. The silver 44mm chrono is the only one not shown as pre-order, but I can't believe that they have a genuine delivery date yet. I haven't seen any other retailer showing information.


----------



## Nom de Forum

From what I have seen these are very good looking watches with many great features and one serious design flaw: lack of a screw down crown and minimum 10 Bar WR. I am sure many will not agree with me about this design flaw but I think it will reduce sales. If these had better WR I would unhesitatingly buy one when available, but as currently designed I am very hesitant.


----------



## chris01

Nom de Forum said:


> From what I have seen these are very good looking watches with many great features and one serious design flaw: lack of a screw down crown and minimum 10 Bar WR. I am sure many will not agree with me about this design flaw but I think it will reduce sales. If these had better WR I would unhesitatingly buy one when available, but as currently designed I am very hesitant.


Yes, it's unfortunate. The earlier Conquest VHP PC's had a similar multi-function non-screw-down crown but still managed 10 BAR and 20 BAR.


----------



## wchsailor

chris01 said:


> Yes, it's unfortunate. The earlier Conquest VHP PC's had a similar multi-function non-screw-down crown but still managed 10 BAR and 20 BAR.


...waiting for Hydro VHP...


----------



## kapahoo

Still no news about when they hit the market?

Here is a german dealer that shows pictures of black versions of all variants:
https://www.brogle.de/longines/conquest/conquest-vhp-41/#138014

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

kapahoo said:


> Still no news about when they hit the market?
> 
> Here is a german dealer that shows pictures of black versions of all variants:
> https://www.brogle.de/longines/conquest/conquest-vhp-41/#138014
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting new option; haven't seen those anywhere else.

For estimated delivery from one UK AD, see my post #122 above.

I'll also repeat what I posted some time ago:

Towards the end of this interview (4m18s), Walter von Känel talks about the new VHPs:


----------



## kapahoo

Another retailer with the black watch option:
https://www.lepage.fr/smallsearch/resultsmall/?q=vhp

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## thermalboyz

Today went in AD, spoken to the staffs and they said they might get it around Sept. I've seen most of the AD website there are on pre-order stages eta Nov. So bit confused on the dates. 

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

My AD thought September.


----------



## dicioccio

After reading all the posts, I'll try to resume the characteristics:
- all steel but no titanium version
- no surface treatment, except for the black versions
- size at 41 mm - 42 for the chrono version (no informations about the thickness ?)
- all the same dials (with 12 and 6 numerals), actually 4 different colours / textures
- crown guards for all models
- sapphire crystal (flat or slightly convex?)
- perpetual calendar + independent adjustable hour hand + end of life indicator
- battery powered - 5 years
- high accuracy, 5 seconds per year (probably not user adjustable)
- supposingly, drive by wire (all the hands have a dedicated stepper motor?)
- no diving waterproof
- fair priced (900-1000€ for the 3 hands steel)

Please, feel free to add all the characteristics I've forgot or try to reply to the details and questions I've put in the parenthesis.

After its launch, I'd like to have a comparison with the Certina, especially regarding the quiality and finish.


----------



## Tom-HK

Surely we have already established it is five seconds per year?

As with all other recent PreciDrive movements, we have assumed it is going to be adjustable only by the manufacturer.


----------



## Tom-HK

dicioccio said:


> After reading all the posts, I'll try to resume the characteristics:
> - all steel but no titanium version
> - no surface treatment, except for the black versions
> - size at 41 mm - 42 for the chrono version (no informations about the thickness ?)
> - all the same dials (with 12 and 6 numerals), actually 4 different colours / textures
> - crown guards for all models
> - sapphire crystal (flat or slightly convex?)
> - perpetual calendar + independent adjustable hour hand + end of life indicator
> - high accuracy, but still no specifications declared (10 seconds per year ? is it user adjustable?)
> - supposingly, drive by wire (all the hands have a dedicated stepper motor?)
> - no diving waterproof
> - fair priced (900-100€ for the 3 hands steel)
> 
> Please, feel free to add all the characteristics I've forgot or try to reply to the details and questions I've put in the parenthesis.
> 
> After its launch, I'd like to have a comparison with the Certina, especially regarding the quiality and finish.


Perhaps refer to Chris's fairly comprehensive table (albeit composed before the existence of the black versions was known) at post 122 for details. Particularly important (from a HAQ standpoint) to note the SPY is 5, not 10.

Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 13


----------



## ronalddheld

I speculate only the factory can go the adjustments. I certain would prefer to be incorrect.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> I speculate only the factory can go the adjustments. I certain would prefer to be incorrect.


The chance of their having retained user-adjustability, after it has completely vanished with the advent of PreciDrive, is zero. If you want an adjustable VHP, I have an unused 25-year old for sale.


----------



## StevePCTech

50M (5Bar) WR, definitely pass on these.


----------



## thermalboyz

Price up on this website

https://www.lepage.fr/montres-homme/marques/longines.html?collection=conquest_longines

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## hughesyn

I can't get past the sub-second markers in a quartz watch with a one Hz tick.


----------



## chris01

hughesyn said:


> I can't get past the sub-second markers in a quartz watch with a one Hz tick.


Obviously it has no practical use, and it seems to be there to convey a 'technical' aspect, or a sense of accuracy (hardly necessary with a VHP). The older VHPs mostly had the same decoration, except for some Conquest VHP PCs and all the Flagship models. The other HAQ makers seem to have avoided this, but it's widely used on many mechanical watches, even the many that don't tick at 5/second. Pretty damn useless anywhere, even on a chrono, as it's just about impossible to read to that level of precision.


----------



## ronalddheld

Seems a useless decoration, but maybe not a deal breaker.


----------



## kapahoo

Not that it is of much more use but can't the markers be used for the minute hand which (probably) moves a bit more "sweepingly"?
But yes I know that since there is a seconds hand no one will actually look at the minute hand between minutes so to speak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gangrel

Lemme flip the question.

Even if this was mimicking a hi-beat mechanical, so the second hand was moving several times a second, would the sub-seconds dial really mean anything? Can you really read to a 1/4 or so second resolution while the hands are moving? And when would you need to? I don't count accuracy tracking, because IMO most of these short-term methods are just too error- or noise-prone. 

Makes sense if you have a stopwatch function...and a higher beat rate, of course. Otherwise, it's clutter whether we're talking 1 Hz or 16 Hz or more for the movement.


----------



## GMF

I've had my Grand Seiko now for several years, and just recently picked up a "The Citizen" with the A010 movement. I'd like to add one of these Longines VHPs to my HEQ collection, but I can't find them for sale anywhere. Does anyone know when they will actually be available for purchase?


----------



## hughesyn

Jura in the UK have it for pre-order with an estimated delivery in November.


----------



## gangrel

hughesyn said:


> Jura in the UK have it for pre-order with an estimated delivery in November.


Wow, that seems late. Weren't we hearing August-September time frame?

Is this the first time it's up for pre-order? The reason I ask...I finally got my Nomos Club Aqua this week. Took an extra month because Nomos had to allocate the first production run. Pre-orders were that huge. And the AD actually said, they didn't get enough to cover all the pre-orders they'd gotten. Sooo...if pre-orders had been ongoing, they may know they'll have to wait for a 2nd allocation.

Suppose it's also possible they have extensive orders for other models they consider higher priority.


----------



## Philipnwh

gangrel said:


> Wow, that seems late. Weren't we hearing August-September time frame?
> 
> Is this the first time it's up for pre-order? The reason I ask...I finally got my Nomos Club Aqua this week. Took an extra month because Nomos had to allocate the first production run. Pre-orders were that huge. And the AD actually said, they didn't get enough to cover all the pre-orders they'd gotten. Sooo...if pre-orders had been ongoing, they may know they'll have to wait for a 2nd allocation.
> 
> Suppose it's also possible they have extensive orders for other models they consider higher priority.


Does anyone know about any update on the sale of the Longines VHP? I haven't been able to find any information online.


----------



## chris01

Philipnwh said:


> Does anyone know about any update on the sale of the Longines VHP? I haven't been able to find any information online.


Plenty of information from this seller, even if it's not in the right country for you:

https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/search?q=vhp&type=product


----------



## kapahoo

Is the white/silver chrono really in stock at Jura? 
Great news if that is the case!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thermalboyz

kapahoo said:


> Is the white/silver chrono really in stock at Jura?
> Great news if that is the case!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you can add to basket then that's great.

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

kapahoo said:


> Is the white/silver chrono really in stock at Jura?
> Great news if that is the case!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't get too excited.  I think that one is an error, and they somehow missed the pre-order bit that's shown for all the other models.. It gives no indication of a delivery date, and I doubt that you'd get better info if you called them.


----------



## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> Don't get too excited.  I think that one is an error, and they somehow missed the pre-order bit that's shown for all the other models.. It gives no indication of a delivery date, and I doubt that you'd get better info if you called them.


Yeah, I know. ;(

Saw that brogle.de have estimated "oktober" for some of the VHP-models though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## kapahoo

I saw a Canadian shop having some of the vhp-models ready for checkout. If they actually are there...? Who knows. Still, they may arrive before november!


----------



## ssalb

I just called the Longines Boutique, World Trade Center in NYC. They said they will not get them until sometime in November.


----------



## Verdict

I really dislike the polished bezel around the VHP models. It doesn't do much for aesthetics and is just a scratch magnet.


----------



## ronalddheld

November 7th is the official US launch in Manhattan boutique at the World Trade center.


----------



## kapahoo

ronalddheld said:


> November 7th is the official US launch in Manhattan boutique at the World Trade center.


Ok!

Should be pretty much the same in the rest of the world. Seen them listed on more online shops every week now. Getting closer!

The ring with seconds (and more...) markers on the blue version - is it black?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

kapahoo said:


> Ok!
> The ring with seconds (and more...) markers on the blue version - is it black?


From the various photos that have appeared since the original announcement, it seems that the seconds ring and date wheel are the same colour on each model. White on the white (silver) watch, and black on the black, blue and carbon versions. Very disappointing that they didn't do blue on blue - can't have saved much on the manufacturing cost.


----------



## doinggood

I keep going to Jura to pre-order then get cold feet. I love the LNG1117 all-black 44mm chrono. Anyone else getting one?


----------



## Tom-HK

doinggood said:


> I keep going to Jura to pre-order then get cold feet. I love the LNG1117 all-black 44mm chrono. Anyone else getting one?


44mm is a bit large for my taste, but I am definitely weighing up the possibility of buying one of the 41mm models. I, too, have visited the pre-order page a number of times. If I had just a bit more spare cash in the bank then I would order one without hesitation.


----------



## thermalboyz

Been told by one of AD in UK that the VHP had some delays in production and eta around January 18. If Longines will be able to release it before Xmas it would be a great. 

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


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## ronalddheld

Will try to remember to ask my AD today. Maybe the US release date is sooner?


----------



## kapahoo

Several posts on the Longines fb-page about a european launch of the VHP at some sort of horse race a couple of weeks ago. It must be really close now otherwise that wouldn’t make any sense.

Edit: they only seem advertise the white/grey threehander though. Might be problems with the chronos or something else.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GT27

What with the recent Euro roll out, these should be hitting the US shortly. Anyone else on the list to get one? I think I'm going to grab a black dial when they arrive.


----------



## ronalddheld

Asked my AD to inform me if they are getting the models around the time of the iIS launch.


----------



## GT27

Does anyone have an image of the 41mm and 43mm side by side for comparison?


----------



## Tom-HK

GT27 said:


> Does anyone have an image of the 41mm and 43mm side by side for comparison?


The only side-by-side shot I have seen has been on a German site : https://www.neueuhren.de/die-neu-longines-conquest-v-h-p-setzt-neue-massstaebe/

It is unclear whether they are of different sizes but (to my eyes, at least) the black dial on the far left looks a bit bigger than the white dial, centre-right.


----------



## kapahoo

GT27 said:


> Does anyone have an image of the 41mm and 43mm side by side for comparison?


Scroll a bit here:
http://watchesbysjx.com/2017/03/lon...quartz-that-runs-within-5-seconds-a-year.html

Hard to see what a real life difference is though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GT27

Cheers guys, yep that black on the far left looks like the 43mm to me. The date window looks a smidge bigger. Not 100% sure though.



Tom-HK said:


> The only side-by-side shot I have seen has been on a German site : https://www.neueuhren.de/die-neu-longines-conquest-v-h-p-setzt-neue-massstaebe/
> 
> It is unclear whether they are of different sizes but (to my eyes, at least) the black dial on the far left looks a bit bigger than the white dial, centre-right.


----------



## GT27

Out of interest; what configurations are people going with?


----------



## Dan_957

Got two VHPs in the shop today(!), a blue 43mm and a 41mm carbon fiber dial, both look really good. I got to play with a 41mm white dial last month and in considering the 3 I gotta say the white, IMO, looks the best with the color accents though carbon fiber is my number 2. I think the most surprising quality of the piece was the heft as its not anywhere near as light as my Certina with the precidrive/ powerdrive COSC movement. But, I'm thinking this is a must add for the collection, these are just too neat - especially when you get to see the GPD system at work.


----------



## GT27

Hi Dan, please can you post a picture of them side by side if you get a chance? Thanks!



Dan_957 said:


> Got two VHPs in the shop today(!), a blue 43mm and a 41mm carbon fiber dial, both look really good. I got to play with a 41mm white dial last month and in considering the 3 I gotta say the white, IMO, looks the best with the color accents though carbon fiber is my number 2. I think the most surprising quality of the piece was the heft as its not anywhere near as light as my Certina with the precidrive/ powerdrive COSC movement. But, I'm thinking this is a must add for the collection, these are just too neat - especially when you get to see the GPD system at work.


----------



## Dan_957

GT27 said:


> Hi Dan, please can you post a picture of them side by side if you get a chance? Thanks!


Here's a side by side,... the difference doesn't seem too dramatic until you see them side by side and the 43mm dial really shows its width.


----------



## chris01

The full range is now on the Longines UK web site:


----------



## GT27

Cheers Dan, that's very helpful. What's your initial impression of them? Quality, how they wear etc?



Dan_957 said:


> Here's a side by side,... the difference doesn't seem too dramatic until you see them side by side and the 43mm dial really shows its width.
> View attachment 12628477


----------



## Dan_957

Generally speaking, my overall initial impression is that Longines really did quite well with the VHP line and as far as bang for buck I think they pegged a sweet price point. What I liked best about them so far is that they have a fair heft for a quartz watch, and a really sharp look as far as solid dial color, blacked out markers hands, and red accents - feels sporty, fresh, and while certainly a casual watch its rather versatile (with straps and outfits). The movement is really cool too, as far as they automatic functionality to magnetic fields, shocks, etc. it's cool to see how it really is aware of itself lol... and so yeah, I'm a big fan of these so far.


----------



## ronalddheld

Still working with my AD to find out when they are getting their stock.


----------



## chris01

Dan_957 said:


> Generally speaking, my overall initial impression is that Longines really did quite well with the VHP line and as far as bang for buck I think they pegged a sweet price point. What I liked best about them so far is that they have a fair heft for a quartz watch, and a really sharp look as far as solid dial color, blacked out markers hands, and red accents - feels sporty, fresh, and while certainly a casual watch its rather versatile (with straps and outfits). The movement is really cool too, as far as they automatic functionality to magnetic fields, shocks, etc. it's cool to see how it really is aware of itself lol... and so yeah, I'm a big fan of these so far.


Is the left-hand watch in your picture the blue dial? If so it looks much darker than all the preview pictures I've seen. Is it really that dark or just a lighting effect?


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> Is the left-hand watch in your picture the blue dial? If so it looks much darker than all the preview pictures I've seen. Is it really that dark or just a lighting effect?


Surely it's the black dial? No? I am relying on my phone's screen, but it looks black to me.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> Surely it's the black dial? No? I am relying on my phone's screen, but it looks black to me.


Fair comment, but Dan said he had the blue 43 and the carbon 41. It's only slightly blue on my PC, though. If it's really that dark blue then the black date dial won't look so wrong.


----------



## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> Fair comment, but Dan said he had the blue 43 and the carbon 41. It's only slightly blue on my PC, though. If it's really that dark blue then the black date dial won't look so wrong.


You're quite right; he did say that. Logically it should be the blue one but I'm blowed if I don't see a black dial in that particular photo.


----------



## GT27

It's blue on my screen, gents.


----------



## Tom-HK

GT27 said:


> It's blue on my screen, gents.


I think only Tumblr can resolve this debate.

#TheWatch


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I think only Tumblr can resolve this debate.
> 
> #TheWatch


o|

Runs away, rubbing his eyes and screaming.

Let's hope that Dan responds with the correct answer!


----------



## kapahoo

I see blue as well!

Darker than expected. Perhaps this mixes better with the black inner bezel and datewheel?

The whole VHP line is now up at longines.com along the other conquests.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dan_957

Sorry about the lighting in that pic but it is definitely blue - I was having a tough time avoiding the over head lights. It is definitely a darker shade (think navy-ish) of blue but I suspect you'll find, in person, it is not so dark.


----------



## chris01

Dan_957 said:


> Sorry about the lighting in that pic but it is definitely blue - I was having a tough time avoiding the over head lights. It is definitely a darker shade (think navy-ish) of blue but I suspect you'll find, in person, it is not so dark.


Thanks. I guess we may be able to see one soon!


----------



## GT27

Dan, thanks for all the first hand feedback. It's helping me narrow down my purchase, which will be unseen.

If a black dial comes your way, please post a picture!



Dan_957 said:


> Sorry about the lighting in that pic but it is definitely blue - I was having a tough time avoiding the over head lights. It is definitely a darker shade (think navy-ish) of blue but I suspect you'll find, in person, it is not so dark.


----------



## GT27

There's a FB Live feed tomorrow with Andre Agassi to celebrate the US launch. 

The watch seems to be getting favorable reviews. The only reoccurring criticism is coming from people that think $1K is too much for a quartz watch.


----------



## GMF

I just ordered a silver dial in 41 mm from the Longines web site.


----------



## ronalddheld

Anything usable from the FB video on the US launch?


----------



## ronalddheld

FWIW: https://www.watchtime.com/wristwatc...-17&utm_campaign=WW+11-11-17&utm_medium=email


----------



## gangrel

The interview does make it clear that their target market's a younger crowd.


----------



## hughesyn

ronalddheld said:


> FWIW: https://www.watchtime.com/wristwatc...-17&utm_campaign=WW+11-11-17&utm_medium=email


The article is quite misleading.

It says that no one has made a 5 second / year quartz before.
However, the Citizens have been rated at that for years, as well as a couple of LE Seiko 9Fs.

One thing is for sure, the marketing department of Longines is a lot more successful that Citizen.


----------



## gangrel

hughesyn said:


> The article is quite misleading.
> 
> It says that no one has made a 5 second / year quartz before.
> However, the Citizens have been rated at that for years, as well as a couple of LE Seiko 9Fs.
> 
> One thing is for sure, the marketing department of Longines is a lot more successful that Citizen.


This surprises you? 

Has Citizen pushed anything but Eco Drive qua Eco Drive, in the last 15-20 years? Outside Japan, that is. The whole JDM-only is anti-marketing.

That said...that wasn't the Longines VP. That was the WatchTime writer, in the intro. Sure, it's likely enough it was a fed line, but still...this wasn't a Longines claim, it was a mis-stated fact in the writer's story. Magazine's fault.


----------



## ronalddheld

My AD has three in stock. PM me for details. I cannot post two poor images now.


----------



## Tom-HK

ronalddheld said:


> My AD has three in stock. PM me for details. I cannot post two poor images now.


I asked my AD, today. They replied with a fairly lengthy e-mail that that described how the brand was "currently in the process of producing these exquisite timepieces" and which went on to reassure me that they would "liaise directly with the brand" on my behalf, but which essentially said "We have absolutely no idea when we will be getting it".


----------



## gangrel

I'm seeing a slogan t-shirt dying to find a silk screen press there, Tom......


----------



## obsidian

hughesyn said:


> The article is quite misleading.
> It says that no one has made a 5 second / year quartz before.
> However, the Citizens have been rated at that for years, as well as a couple of LE Seiko 9Fs.


This is true; Longines is "only" matching the performance specs of the Citizen Chronometers, including their perpetual calendar function (which Grand Seikos don't have) for what... less than half the price? 
In addition, they also have that "position detection system" which I don't think Chronomasters have, but which some higher-end Citizen Attesa Eco-drives and Casio Tough Mvmt. Solars do have.
Where Longines would be one-upping everyone is in the VHP chronographs. No other company, Japanese or Swiss, has a 5 sec./yr. chronograph movement.


----------



## gangrel

obsidian, we're talking a pure matter of fact about the accuracy. Nothing more. That statement is incorrect. We're not complimenting or criticizing the watch's capabilities.


----------



## wbird

If anyone is interested, I noticed that that store that has a big parade in NYC on Thanksgiving is listing the three hand in white on their app as available for order. Might even be able to use a discount coupon when you buy it, that would be sort of like a miracle on 34th st.


----------



## chris01

They're even on US eBay now.


----------



## GMF

Has anyone uncovered any specs (other than accuracy) on the movements in the VHP watches?


----------



## chris01

What exactly are you looking for? Have you read this entire thread and looked at all the press releases? Let us know what's missing for you.


----------



## GMF

chris01 said:


> What exactly are you looking for? Have you read this entire thread and looked at all the press releases? Let us know what's missing for you.


Yes, and I don't recall seeing anything regarding jewel count or the size of these movements (3 hand or chrono).


----------



## gangrel

Look at the Longines VHP brochure

https://www.longines.com/novelties/conquest-vhp

12 1/2 ''' and 13 1/4 ''' chrono's larger (duh)

Jewel count's not listed.

Puck of a movement, for quartz. 3.9mm. Awfully thick for the 3-hander at least.


----------



## ppaulusz

GMF said:


> ...I don't recall seeing anything regarding jewel count or the size of these movements (3 hand or chrono).


Jewel count could be zero as the hands are driven by motors (fly-by-wire).


----------



## Dan_957

Just got a silver dial 41mm in this morning, still my favorite dial variation, things a beauty. 

And I gotta say I'm hardly surprised these are thick movements, I mean its running at 400 steps per second with 3 independent two way motors with some type of G force and magnetic field sensors (just guessing, please correct me if I am wrong), and some type of chip or micro controller that keeps track of time when the external freezes up,... and I agree I'd not be surprised if no jewels were necessary.


----------



## ronalddheld

No jewels are really needed to a quartz movement.


----------



## wbird

Might want to mention that 3 models are in the store in NJ. For those folks that like to handle them before buying. You could use the store's web site and see if they are in a store near you.


----------



## ronalddheld

Three are in a suburb of Philly, as mentioned previously.


----------



## GT27

Anyone have a real picture of a 41mm on the wrist?


----------



## thermalboyz

Got mine 3 hand Blue today in UK.


----------



## chris01

thermalboyz said:


> Got mine 3 hand Blue today in UK.


I'd be interested to know which dealer has them. No sign at the two big chains near me. PM me if possible, please.


----------



## Tom-HK

The two UK dealers I've seen have estimates varying from 'February' to 'no idea'.


----------



## thermalboyz

Got them from Ernest John's Leeds. Pre order back in june/July. 

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

thermalboyz said:


> Got them from Ernest John's Leeds. Pre order back in june/July.
> 
> Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


[Ernest Jones?] They're probably filling all their back orders, while showing 'out of stock'. Thanks for that. I'm not interested in placing an order until I've handled one. And the lack of instructions may well be a deal breaker for me, as I'm guessing Longines won't change their long-term habit of issuing only the same irrelevant PoS manual.


----------



## GT27

That looks great, congrats. What size?



thermalboyz said:


> Got mine 3 hand Blue today in UK.


----------



## thermalboyz

41mm sorry its ernestjones not John's the phone dictionary prediction

Sent from my VKY-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## NL-NO

Picked mine up this week as well. Really impressed by its looks. Was in doubt between silver and blue one for while -still am.

My first HAQ -although not my first Longines. Prob not my last HAQ either...

Got increasingly annoyed with setting my mechanical watches so often, as i usually swap watches every few days.

The quoted service costs for my auto. HydroConquest were roughly 75% of the current retail price, prob due to the ridiculous hourly rates over here. Also, I rather wait every 5 years on a few minute battery change than having to send my watch in for week or two.


----------



## Tom-HK

NL-NO said:


> Picked mine up this week as well. Reslly inpressed by the looks. In doubt between silver and blue one for while -still am.


I think you made the right choice. The silver seems better, to me. Longines' decision to pair a black date wheel with the blue dial seems, to me, almost as lazy as their not bothering to produce a user manual.


----------



## NL-NO

Tom-HK said:


> I think you made the right choice. The silver seems better, to me. Longines' decision to pair a black date wheel with the blue dial seems, to me, almost as lazy as their not bothering to produce a user manual.


I agree with the date wheel, although i rather have it in black than in white. I think blue is a really difficult color to get right and imho Longines nailed it with the VHP, especially in combination with that circular pattern. Was amazed how much bigger the white one looks compared to the darker dial versions.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## chris01

NL-NO said:


> I agree with the date wheel, although i rather have it in black than in white. I think blue is a really difficult color to get right and imho Longines nailed it with the VHP, especially in combination with that circular pattern. Was amazed how much bigger the white one looks compared to the darker dial versions.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Having now seen a decent photo of the blue one, I would definitely not have one with that black date wheel, and the white date on the silver dial doesn't look great for me either. If I do eventually get one (rather unlikely in view of the user manual) it will have to be black. I can't understand what they were thinking of with the carbon dial.


----------



## kapahoo

I like the blue as well as the silver. From the recent pictures I get the impression that the black and blue mix is a pretty good one. And the grey look almost white which I find nice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dirkpitt73

NL-NO said:


> Picked mine up this week as well. Really impressed by its looks. Was in doubt between silver and blue one for while -still am.
> 
> My first HAQ -although not my first Longines. Prob not my last HAQ either...
> 
> Got increasingly annoyed with setting my mechanical watches so often, as i usually swap watches every few days.
> 
> The quoted service costs for my auto. HydroConquest were roughly 75% of the current retail price, prob due to the ridiculous hourly rates over here. Also, I rather wait every 5 years on a few minute battery change than having to send my watch in for week or two.
> 
> View attachment 12718555


Looks great, the silver is growing on me. Which size is it? Did you get a manual with the watch? Assume you purchased from an AD.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

Tom-HK said:


> I think you made the right choice. The silver seems better, to me. Longines' decision to pair a black date wheel with the blue dial seems, to me, almost as lazy as their not bothering to produce a user manual.


That's a common gripe with all brands at all price points:

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/watches-date-displays/


----------



## NL-NO

dirkpitt73 said:


> Looks great, the silver is growing on me. Which size is it? Did you get a manual with the watch? Assume you purchased from an AD.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


Through my AD. Its called silver but looks more like white to me. Anyway, manual is not the updated one, but i have no doubt my AD will provide me with a new one once it becomes avail. Its the 41mm, big enough for most ppl i recon.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## bobusa

thermalboyz said:


> Got mine 3 hand Blue today in UK.


What is your wrist size? How is the fit? How that Blue look in person?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gangrel

NL-NO said:


> Anyway, manual is not the updated one, but i have no doubt my AD will provide me with a new one once it becomes avail.


Longines' existing manuals suggest you'll run through your 3rd battery before that happens.


----------



## thermalboyz

@bobusa

Wrist size 6.5inch. Watch 41mm, in general little thick for quartz but it's alright for me.

More pictures below :


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> Longines' existing manuals suggest you'll run through your 3rd battery before that happens.


:-d :-!

I don't understand how a big company like that can introduce a new product that doesn't work like anything else on the market and not supply customers with basic operating instructions.

I bought an el-cheapo Bluetooth gizmo for my car last week from Amazon to allow me to stream music from my phone to the FM radio in my car via the phone's BT connection (I have a rather old car). That whopping $13 item had a decent manual with it. But a $1000 watch doesn't warrant one too?

THIS is why I'm convinced Swatch will eventually put themselves out of business: customer indifference. You can see it with warrany repairs that are too often shoddy, lack of simple operating instructions supplied with the product and/or lousy initial quality. I don't get it, not when their basic market is declining.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> :-d :-!
> 
> I don't understand how a big company like that can introduce a new product that doesn't work like anything else on the market and not supply customers with basic operating instructions.
> 
> I bought an el-cheapo Bluetooth gizmo for my car last week from Amazon to allow me to stream music from my phone to the FM radio in my car via the phone's BT connection (I have a rather old car). That whopping $13 item had a decent manual with it. But a $1000 watch doesn't warrant one too?
> 
> THIS is why I'm convinced Swatch will eventually put themselves out of business: customer indifference. You can see it with warrany repairs that are too often shoddy, lack of simple operating instructions supplied with the product and/or lousy initial quality. I don't get it, not when their basic market is declining.


Your frequently-stated antipathy for Swatch Group is well reported here  but I am in full agreement in respect of the VHP failings. In contrast, while Certina's marketing (and some of their QC) is very lacklustre, they do at least document their watches pretty well. It's also helpful that they use mostly standard ETA movements that are also very well-documented online. Their avoidance of wild enthusiasm for "Ambassadors of Elegance" and horses jumping over sticks has allowed them to concentrate on watches.


----------



## gangrel

tmathes said:


> :-d :-!
> 
> THIS is why I'm convinced Swatch will eventually put themselves out of business: customer indifference. You can see it with warrany repairs that are too often shoddy, lack of simple operating instructions supplied with the product and/or lousy initial quality. I don't get it, not when their basic market is declining.


Is this Swatch, or just Longines, with the manual? I can't speak to warranty repairs or initial product QC, as the only watch I've got from them is my Tissot Ballade, and it's had no issues in the limited time I've had it.

And for the most part, most watches don't need their own manuals. Still, not recognizing that this movement *does* need one, is very bad, and very weird to me.


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> Is this Swatch, or just Longines, with the manual? I can't speak to warranty repairs or initial product QC, as the only watch I've got from them is my Tissot Ballade, and it's had no issues in the limited time I've had it.
> 
> And for the most part, most watches don't need their own manuals. Still, not recognizing that this movement *does* need one, is very bad, and very weird to me.


The manual issue applies to Omega also. The repair, QC issues and customer relations applies to all of Swatch.


----------



## DaveM

I have just collected from watch-shop.
Here is a picture of the inside :-
..No jewels
..Small battery. The case is quite thick, so you would have thought that they could have fitted a bigger battery to give the 10year-life of old VHP.
..No obvious adjustment-mechanism (? hole on edge just below the battery).
The guy at the shop understood the adjustment-procedure and explained it almost as well as GMF. I think on the whole it is an improvement, on old VHP the stem was very stiff and sometimes hard to find position 2 (hour zone).
The minute-adjust seems to be in steps of 10s. This granularity still makes it easier to accurately set the minutes hand, but since the seconds-hand hacks to 12oclock it would have been better if the minute hand adjusted to the exact minute in minute steps. This seems like a no-brainer, I wonder why they did not do it.
I will see how good the timekeeping is !


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Your frequently-stated antipathy for Swatch Group is well reported here  but I am in full agreement in respect of the VHP failings. In contrast, while Certina's marketing (and some of their QC) is very lacklustre, they do at least document their watches pretty well. It's also helpful that they use mostly standard ETA movements that are also very well-documented online. Their avoidance of wild enthusiasm for "Ambassadors of Elegance" and horses jumping over sticks has allowed them to concentrate on watches.


The lackluster quality applies to Longines and Omega too Chris.  I had issues with both of those brands, the watches were from an AD (and he's also a forum sponsor).

I love the horses jumping over sticks part, well stated!! And I wholeheartedly agree about the ambassadors part, that's the biggest waste of marketing dollars imaginable.


----------



## tmathes

DaveM said:


> I have just collected from watch-shop.
> ...No obvious adjustment-mechanism (? hole on edge just below the battery).


I think the adjustment is via the two tri-pin triangle shaped contact clusters on the PCB (above the 'AV41' marking) and is done with special test equipment. However it's done I would guess it's all done via a digital interface and not usable adjustable.


----------



## DaveM

tmathes said:


> I think the adjustment is via the two tri-pin triangle shaped contact clusters on the PCB (above the 'AV41' marking) and is done with special test equipment. However it's done I would guess it's all done via a digital interface and not usable adjustable.


I agree. It seems a shame. On the old VHP you pressed the crown in for date, month and leap-year setting. A bit of a fiddle, but it worked !
You have the same crown push-in position on new VHP (and separately driven seconds-hand which could do mode-indication).
But as far as we can tell the push-in position does not do anything.
So why provide it ?
? commonality with chrono version
? feature we have not found yet


----------



## chris01

As there are now a few of these watches in the hands of enthusiasts, would somebody please do some measurements and tell us the thickness, lug-to-lug, and total weight with full bracelet. You could then send this data to Walter von Känel and he can put it on his websites. Thank you!


----------



## tmathes

DaveM said:


> I agree. It seems a shame. On the old VHP you pressed the crown in for date, month and leap-year setting. A bit of a fiddle, but it worked !
> You have the same crown push-in position on new VHP (and separately driven seconds-hand which could do mode-indication).
> But as far as we can tell the push-in position does not do anything.
> So why provide it ?
> ? commonality with chrono version
> *? feature we have not found yet*


You figured it out!! Now the hard part is figuring out WHAT.

I'd bet you didn't know it's an Easter egg.... :-d


----------



## ronalddheld

Could the push in position have to do with rate adjustment?


----------



## wbird

I seem to recall a thread about the Certina DS-8, the manual seemed to leave owners a little underwelmed. So Swatch seems to do a crappy job across the board. Granted there is no excuse for putting out a watch with a crappy manual, but on the list of reasons why I buy a watch the manual is pretty far down the list. I think I would rate the box it comes in higher, that's forever, I can eventually get the info I need.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> I seem to recall a thread about the Certina DS-8, the manual seemed to leave owners a little underwelmed. So Swatch seems to do a crappy job across the board. Granted there is no excuse for putting out a watch with a crappy manual, but on the list of reasons why I buy a watch the manual is pretty far down the list. I think I would rate the box it comes in higher, that's forever, I can eventually get the info I need.


That was from me likely. It never really explained how to properly set the moon phase, it's not like typical moon phase displays, a simple mechanical wheel like a date wheel. It's a motor driven wheel and it took quite a bit of experimenting to get it set correctly. Swatch never states that.


----------



## kapahoo

But besides that the manual for the ds-8 is ok as I recall. And they make an attempt to explain the moonphase setting as well.
It is acceptable and nothing like the lack of manual for the VHP.


I have hade lots of issues with my ds-8 chrono though. Back and forth to service centers but never really fixed. But that is perhaps for another thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveM

chris01 said:


> As there are now a few of these watches in the hands of enthusiasts, would somebody please do some measurements and tell us the thickness, lug-to-lug, and total weight with full bracelet. You could then send this data to Walter von Känel and he can put it on his websites. Thank you!


This may not be good enough for Walter, but here is what I have found out :-
>Longines call it 41mm ( £690 in UK ) model. 41mm is outside-diameter of case 'round part'
>12.2mm thick
>39.4mm 'bezel' outside diameter
>33.0mm 'dial' outside diameter
>50.0mm lug-to-lug
>45.5mm edge-to-edge over crown
>147 gm with 3 links removed

3 motors, second, minute/hour and date
>1 step to move 1 second for seconds hand
>6 steps to move 1 minute for the minutes hand
>maximum speed 400 steps per minute (? minute and seconds motors)

3 crown-positions
>Spring-loaded push in >> does nothing or to be determined
>Normal
>Stay-put pull out to adjust

The hour-hand is geared to minute-hand, all adjustment are 'electronic' using the date, minute and seconds motors.
Adjustments
> After 60s in adjustment-position the watch does a hand-align, all hands go to 12-oclock and stay there until normal position selected
>> But when normal is reselected time is not changed (so long as nothing else has been done)
> Quick forward/reverse rotations of crown change hour (by moving minutes-motor), but minutes are retained
> Slow forward/reverse rotation stops the watch, seconds hand hacks to 12-oclock, minutes-hand is adjusted (to the nearest 10s)

Silver-oxide battery (not lithium) so battery-life cannot be more than 5 years (& will be shortened if you play with adjustments).
No jewels
No obvious method to reset month/year memory or calibrate time-keeping.

As I say my best estimates, may be a load of hogwash
Dave


----------



## GMF

DaveM said:


> No jewels
> 
> ...
> 
> As I say my best estimates, may be a load of hogwash
> Dave


Yes, I'd say the "no jewels" is a load of hogwash. Given that many of ETA's "economy" quartz movements from the Trendline range have at least three jewels, and the movement used by Longines in the VHP is from the Flatline (high-end) range, I'd say the VHP movement would have at least six jewels based on the the jewel count of most other Flatline movements.


----------



## gangrel

GMF said:


> Yes, I'd say the "no jewels" is a load of hogwash. Given that many of ETA's "economy" quartz movements from the Trendline range have at least three jewels, and the movement used by Longines in the VHP is from the Flatline (high-end) range, I'd say the VHP movement would have at least six jewels based on the the jewel count of most other Flatline movements.


You're assuming jewels correlate to quality...which with quartz makes no sense. Mechanicals want them for low friction and wear resistance, on things like a balance wheel. Not needed. On the hands...not needed because these hands are motor-driven.


----------



## gaijin

GMF said:


> Yes, I'd say the "no jewels" is a load of hogwash. Given that many of ETA's "economy" quartz movements from the Trendline range have at least three jewels, and the movement used by Longines in the VHP is from the Flatline (high-end) range, I'd say the VHP movement would have at least six jewels based on the the jewel count of most other Flatline movements.


I thought this was pretty self-explanatory:









"NO (0) JEWELS"

HTH​


----------



## GMF

gangrel said:


> You're assuming jewels correlate to quality...which with quartz makes no sense. Mechanicals want them for low friction and wear resistance, on things like a balance wheel. Not needed. On the hands...not needed because these hands are motor-driven.


Not true. Unless the hands are direct drive (doubtful) there is a gear train in the watch, and a jeweled bearing surface for the gears is still the most friction free surface. An analog quartz movement is still a "mechanical" movement, and jeweled bearing surfaces are a plus just as in mainspring driven mechanical movements. The Seiko 9F movements have 9 jewels; The Citizen A010 and A060 movements have 30 jewels. The ETA chronograph movements in the Flatline range have 27 jewels. Do you think there may be a reason behind that?


----------



## GMF

gaijin said:


> I thought this was pretty self-explanatory:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "NO (0) JEWELS"
> 
> HTH​


I had not seen the proof by way of a picture of the movement. Very interesting...and surprising.


----------



## gaijin

tmathes said:


> :-d :-!
> 
> I don't understand how a big company like that can introduce a new product that doesn't work like anything else on the market and not supply customers with basic operating instructions.


The 2017 Conquest VHP User Manual is available online here: https://www.longines.com/uploads/cu...s-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf

Good info!

HTH


----------



## DaveM

gangrel said:


> You're assuming jewels correlate to quality...which with quartz makes no sense. Mechanicals want them for low friction and wear resistance, on things like a balance wheel. Not needed. On the hands...not needed because these hands are motor-driven.


I agree. But it shows that this is not just a slightly tweaked Flatline and a long way from the previous VHP. Using the motors for adjustment must be the right way to go (even without documentation and with 'could do better' software). It works almost as well as my £120 Skagen hybrid !


----------



## gaijin

GMF said:


> I had not seen the proof by way of a picture of the movement. Very interesting...and surprising.


Here's a pic of the movement from the User Manual - admittedly a little hard to see:










HTH


----------



## chris01

DaveM said:


> I agree. But it shows that this is not just a slightly tweaked Flatline and a long way from the previous VHP. Using the motors for adjustment must be the right way to go (even without documentation and with 'could do better' software). It works almost as well as my £120 Skagen hybrid !


Another example is the Citizen E510 calibre, used in various Exceed and Attesa models. One of the most technically advanced HAQ movements ever, and zero jewels.


----------



## DaveM

gaijin said:


> Here's a pic of the movement from the User Manual - admittedly a little hard to see:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing, the link was not there 3 days ago ! Perhaps we have made them get their fingers out !
> Both GMF and myself had correspondence with Longines/Swatch and received useless replies.
> 
> The manual is not bad, but again could do better.
> >They make a big deal of the GPD (datum fuction). Never missed it on the old VHP
> >Hacking is a good feature which is hardly explained.
> 
> As for the hardware
> >Minutes hand should always adjust to nearest minute to give really easy 'set watch to time-signal'
> >Pulling crown to position 2 should ONLY do hour-zone adjust (as now with fast tweak). This is the feature that will be used most
> >To set time (do it every new-years day to keep within 10s)
> >>push crown in for 5s. Seconds-hand hacks to 12, minutes to next exact minute
> >>rotate crown to change minute (if needed)
> >>at time-signal press in crown to restart the watch
> >>How good would that be ?
> >1 day to change battery is good, can still do it myself. Lack of 'crown-driven' month adjust (like old VHP) still seems silly


----------



## tmathes

gaijin said:


> The 2017 Conquest VHP User Manual is available online here: https://www.longines.com/uploads/cu...s-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf
> 
> Good info!
> 
> HTH


Thanks for the link. And it's about time. Hopefully the manual gets put in the box soon too. And it doesn't have any instructions on use of the chrono (for example: does it have a lap function?). Better than nothing I guess.

Regarding jewels: several 3 hander quartz watches I own have no jewels in them, one two hander I own dates to 1982 (a Seiko tank-style super-thin watch), it still keeps great time and the battery lasts 2 1/2 yrs (rated life is 2 yrs). From what I can glean from the picture for the chrono movement in the VHP manual it doesn't have jewels in it either, that is really strange. Most quartz chronos movements have jewels in them in my experience.

BTW, has the VHP chronograph model been seen in the wild? In the US all that's listed for sale in retail outlets and on Longines' US web site is the 3 hander only.


----------



## tmathes

DaveM said:


> gaijin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pic of the movement from the User Manual - admittedly a little hard to see:
> 
> As for the hardware
> >Minutes hand should always adjust to nearest minute to give really easy 'set watch to time-signal'
> >Pulling crown to position 2 should ONLY do hour-zone adjust (as now with fast tweak). This is the feature that will be used most
> >To set time (do it every new-years day to keep within 10s)
> >>push crown in for 5s. Seconds-hand hacks to 12, minutes to next exact minute
> >>rotate crown to change minute (if needed)
> >>at time-signal press in crown to restart the watch
> >>How good would that be ?
> >1 day to change battery is good, can still do it myself. Lack of 'crown-driven' month adjust (like old VHP) still seems silly
> 
> 
> 
> Much of what you describe is similar to a couple of Citizens I have, both have a perpetual calendar but do allow you to set the date. I wonder why ETA chose to not allow users that option but it's not unheard of.
> 
> I also like the comment in the manual that only their service centers are authorized to change the battery. Um, I don't think so gents....
Click to expand...


----------



## chris01

Two items give me concern:

How reliable will the EOL and EOE indications be? The thought of having to send the watch to SG Service for complete reprogramming, just because the battery didn't behave as expected, is not appealing. My recent experience highlights this: one of my VHP Perp Cal watches just stopped, with no EOL warning. As I had been checking the timing daily, I certainly didn't miss the warning. However, insert a new battery and rehack the time, no need to touch the PC; why did they have to design potential failure into the new model?

A big omission from all the documentation is a definition of the daily wear pattern required for meeting their 5 SPY spec. I don't believe that they have a 'perfect' TC that will handle all ambient temperatures.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I also like the comment in the manual that only their service centers are authorized to change the battery. Um, I don't think so gents....


If you think that's bad, my Aerospace experience was mind-boggling. Having failed to achieve any rate adjustment by the normal ETA methods, and finding no help on this forum, I asked the question on a (non-WUS) B forum. The only reply was from the Mod, who said I had no right to open my own watch; only Breitling Service were permitted to do this.


----------



## gaijin

chris01 said:


> A big omission from all the documentation is a definition of the daily wear pattern required for meeting their 5 SPY spec. I don't believe that they have a 'perfect' TC that will handle all ambient temperatures.


If one pays close attention to the wording in the manual, the specification for accuracy is, "Typically + 5 seconds/year." A lot hangs on that word "Typically." It can mean generally, usually, in most cases, etc. but NOT in ALL cases. I guess we will only know how much wiggle room Longines has in their "spec" of + 5 seconds/year after enough of these watches have been carefully measured by users for the next year or so.

I'm sure we all remember the Bulova "spec" of + 10 seconds/year for the Precisionist models when they were first introduced ... that didn't go very well. I hope Longines has a better handle on accuracy.

HTH


----------



## GMF

tmathes said:


> Regarding jewels: several 3 hander quartz watches I own have no jewels in them, one two hander I own dates to 1982 (a Seiko tank-style super-thin watch), it still keeps great time and the battery lasts 2 1/2 yrs (rated life is 2 yrs). From what I can glean from the picture for the chrono movement in the VHP manual it doesn't have jewels in it either, that is really strange. Most quartz chronos movements have jewels in them in my experience.


I suspect the reason these movements don't have jeweled bearing surfaces is because there is no gear train (except for the date function). The 3 hand VHP has three independent motors for each hand and these must be direct drive.


----------



## chris01

gaijin said:


> If one pays close attention to the wording in the manual, the specification for accuracy is, "Typically + 5 seconds/year." A lot hangs on that word "Typically." It can mean generally, usually, in most cases, etc. but NOT in ALL cases. I guess we will only know how much wiggle room Longines has in their "spec" of + 5 seconds/year after enough of these watches have been carefully measured by users for the next year or so.
> 
> I'm sure we all remember the Bulova "spec" of + 10 seconds/year for the Precisionist models when they were first introduced ... that didn't go very well. I hope Longines has a better handle on accuracy.
> 
> HTH


My personal experience of Longines/ETA accuracy has been excellent, especially as the quite significant effects of ageing could always be negated by user intervention. However, that's no longer possible and I suspect that SG Service will not take seriously a complaint that a new VHP has gained 6 seconds during its first year of use. Their service equipment can only set a rate based on a short period of measurement, and we all know that a true annual rate, on or off the wrist, can be very different. The PreciDrive technology of the last few years has already introduced this issue and it's not going away.


----------



## tmathes

gaijin said:


> If one pays close attention to the wording in the manual, the specification for accuracy is, "Typically + 5 seconds/year." A lot hangs on that word "Typically." It can mean generally, usually, in most cases, etc. but NOT in ALL cases. I guess we will only know how much wiggle room Longines has in their "spec" of + 5 seconds/year after enough of these watches have been carefully measured by users for the next year or so.
> 
> I'm sure we all remember the Bulova "spec" of + 10 seconds/year for the Precisionist models when they were first introduced ... that didn't go very well. I hope Longines has a better handle on accuracy.
> 
> HTH


In my experience ETA/Swatch is no better than Bulova in claimed and observed accuracy.

The typical claimed accuracy for Certinas with the Precidrive movement is +/- 10 sec/yr. My DS-2 chrono exhibits +24 sec/yr, my DS-8 around +15 sec/yr. The two watches were bought from about year apart, I assumed this is a typical production variance.

My two Bulovas are as good or better, so far, than the two ETA movements. My Surveyor is trending to +16 sec/yr., my moon watch seems to be trending to under 10 sec/yr (haven't had it a year yet). I just bought a Bulova Curv last week, it'll be interesting to see how it's accuracy stacks up to it's siblings.

I still think a lot has to do with how the movement was trimmed during production more than wear pattern. I wore my DS-2 for a month straight, after the first month it was about 2 sec. fast. Wearing it less frequently didn't change it's accuracy from what I can tell so the TC is doing it's job.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> In my experience ETA/Swatch is no better than Bulova in claimed and observed accuracy.
> 
> The typical claimed accuracy for Certinas with the Precidrive movement is +/- 10 sec/yr. My DS-2 chrono exhibits +24 sec/yr, my DS-8 around +15 sec/yr. The two watches were bought from about year apart, I assumed this is a typical production variance.
> 
> My two Bulovas are as good or better, so far, than the two ETA movements. My Surveyor is trending to +16 sec/yr., my moon watch seems to be trending to under 10 sec/yr (haven't had it a year yet). I just bought a Bulova Curv last week, it'll be interesting to see how it's accuracy stacks up to it's siblings.
> 
> I still think a lot has to do with how the movement was trimmed during production more than wear pattern. I wore my DS-2 for a month straight, after the first month it was about 2 sec. fast. Wearing it less frequently didn't change it's accuracy from what I can tell so the TC is doing it's job.


Nothing to say about Bulova. With ETA the key is having one of the older TC movements, while with PreciDrive there appears to be luck involved. I have three VHP PCs that will finish the year at or below +3, a VHP (sold) that would have been +2, and another VHP that is +5 but would be around +2 if I had estimated the correction more accurately a year ago. My only PD (DS-2 from 2013) is a very steady +6 but I have no hope of getting that tweaked down to +2.


----------



## nightbass

Is there no actual picture/video of the black bracelet variant yet?


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Nothing to say about Bulova. With ETA the key is having one of the older TC movements, while with PreciDrive there appears to be luck involved.


Hence why I contend it's not the movement itself but the mfr. process, namely how well the movement is trimmed at final test. Swatch has lousy quality control so I would not be surprsied their final test isn't that great either compared to competitors, at least for HAQ trim (that requires quite precise testing in a high volume environment). I'm sensitive to stuff like this since my line of work demands it (high precision analog design).

Also, has the VHP chrono been released anywhere yet? I've only seen the 3 hander for sale so far.


----------



## chris01

Here's an interesting little item. See the 3-hand movement picture in the instruction manual:









and note the little character just to the left of "SWISS V8".

Then see the ETA manufacturing information document for the 251.264 PreciDrive movement used in the DS-2 chrono:









Looks familiar? It would be no surprise to me if the VHP was based on the PreciDrive/PowerDrive technology, as why invent yet another technology when they have a modular, programmable movement. Up the data rate from 200Hz to 400Hz and there you have it.

However, DaveM's picture of his own watch shows the absence of the PD logo:
Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 24

and the manual's picture of the chrono movement doesn't show it either.


----------



## GMF

I think the electronics of the L288.2 may be derived from ETA's Precidrive technology, but I think the mechanical side of the watch, with independent motors for each hand, is totally unique to this movt.


----------



## chris01

GMF said:


> I think the electronics of the L288.2 may be derived from ETA's Precidrive technology, but I think the mechanical side of the watch, with independent motors for each hand, is totally unique to this movt.


I don't know about the 3-hander, and none of the PD versions to date have really been worthy of an HAQ description. However, the top-class PD chronos are much higher quality. The 251.264 has five motors, the same as the new L289.3, although they will be deployed differently.


----------



## kapahoo

thermalboyz said:


> @bobusa
> 
> Wrist size 6.5inch. Watch 41mm, in general little thick for quartz but it's alright for me.


Thanks for the pics. Looks good!
I passed a shop window with a black-faced VHP the other day and noticed that the '6' and '12' (and perhaps the hands...?) were almost black as well. Hadn't noticed that in the pictures. Is it the same for the blue version. Some kind of blackish steel color. Looked good on that watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveM

chris01 said:


> I don't know about the 3-hander, and none of the PD versions to date have really been worthy of an HAQ description. However, the top-class PD chronos are much higher quality. The 251.264 has five motors, the same as the new L289.3, although they will be deployed differently.


Does anybody know if ETA make any other movements with reversible motors ?

I did not know how watch-motors work, but found
http://www.engineerguy.com/videos/learn-more/physics-teacher-crane-quartz.pdf
in one of our threads. It gives an excellent explanation.
But only works for unidirectional motion !
The only way I can see to get reversal with a motor that 'looks the same from above' is to add another coil underneath.

This could be the answer :-
a) the movement at 3.9mm is very thick for a 3-hander
b) it is 400Hz (2 coil, 90 degree step ?), the standard Precidrive movement (1 coil, 180 degree step) is 200Hz
It could also partly explain why Longines/ETA are so worried about GPD (new motor, perhaps less robust, 1 lost step on minutes motor is 10s)


----------



## GMF

DaveM said:


> The only way I can see to get reversal with a motor that 'looks the same from above' is to add another coil underneath.


You would not need two coils; all you would need is a switching circuit to switch the polarity of the DC voltage to the coil for each motor.


----------



## DaveM

GMF said:


> You would not need two coils; all you would need is a switching circuit to switch the polarity of the DC voltage to the coil for each motor.


Not TRUE !
Plus or minus current in the coil makes a step, a unidirectional stepper has 2 step-types 0-180 an 180 to 360. So a single 2-state coil is enough
A bi-directional stepper has 4 step-types 0 to 180, 180 to 360, 360 to 180 and 180 to 0. So 2 off 2-state coils (4 coil-states) are needed.

For a one-coil simple stepper Advance or Retard depends upon the shape of the stator. For an Advance-stator :-
>Coil positive-pulse is advance 180 degrees, coil negative-pulse is advance another 180 degrees( back where I started)
So both positive and negative pulses ADVANCE 180 degrees
If I give it 3 positive-pulses in a row only the first will move the rotor by a step, pulses 2 and 3 will just make it shake.
If you do not believe me read the hyperlink, it gives much better explanation than I can !


----------



## cat of a different coat

For anyone who has one of these yet:


-How well does it (41mm three hander) hide under a dress shirt sleeve? I understand it's not a 'dress watch', and that's fine, but i'm more concerned about the height and chunkiness of it. Something that wears like an Aqua Terra would be fine.

-Is the bracelet comfortable? Good microadjust? Any rattling?

-Where is the best place online to buy? Anywhere below MSRP?


And just a general question, as I've never owned a non-disposable quartz watch. Do these need any regular service other than battery change (assuming that I always change the battery immediately upon noticing the seconds ticking every 5 seconds)? I'd probably expect to keep it 20 years. If something in the movement goes wrong other than the battery, is it pretty much toast?


----------



## GMF

cat of a different coat said:


> For anyone who has one of these yet:
> 
> -How well does it (41mm three hander) hide under a dress shirt sleeve? I understand it's not a 'dress watch', and that's fine, but i'm more concerned about the height and chunkiness of it. Something that wears like an Aqua Terra would be fine.
> 
> -Is the bracelet comfortable? Good microadjust? Any rattling?
> 
> -Where is the best place online to buy? Anywhere below MSRP?
> 
> And just a general question, as I've never owned a non-disposable quartz watch. Do these need any regular service other than battery change (assuming that I always change the battery immediately upon noticing the seconds ticking every 5 seconds)? I'd probably expect to keep it 20 years. If something in the movement goes wrong other than the battery, is it pretty much toast?


I'm an attorney and I routinely wear dress shirts, both French cuffs with links and button cuffs. The VHP is a thick watch, but I've not had any problems with mine (41mm) fitting under the cuff of my shirts.

The bracelet is comfortable. There are no provisions for micro adjustments. No rattling.

I can't answer about where to order online. I ordered mine directly from the Longines U.S. web site and paid retail.

I've not seen any recommended service intervals for the VHP movements. Since the L288.2 (ETA E56.111) movement represents the pinnacle of ETA's capabilities when it comes to quartz movements, I would surmise that this movement will easily go decades without any problems, provided the watch is not abused. As for whether or not it's toast if something goes wrong, I think that would depend on just what "goes wrong."


----------



## 5x10

cat of a different coat said:


> For anyone who has one of these yet:
> 
> -How well does it (41mm three hander) hide under a dress shirt sleeve? I understand it's not a 'dress watch', and that's fine, but i'm more concerned about the height and chunkiness of it. Something that wears like an Aqua Terra would be fine.
> 
> -Is the bracelet comfortable? Good microadjust? Any rattling?
> 
> -Where is the best place online to buy? Anywhere below MSRP?
> 
> And just a general question, as I've never owned a non-disposable quartz watch. Do these need any regular service other than battery change (assuming that I always change the battery immediately upon noticing the seconds ticking every 5 seconds)? I'd probably expect to keep it 20 years. If something in the movement goes wrong other than the battery, is it pretty much toast?


I picked up the blue faced model, 41mm. I concur with GMF's comments regarding it's thickness, comfort and lack of rattle. I picked mine up at Macy's for MSRP ($1,000) less 15%, $850 plus tax. It comes with a two year factory warranty. Generally, anything electronic will go bad in the first 90 days of operation. With a two year warranty, a five year battery life coupled with ETA construction, I'll put my money on it running a good long while. I made the mistake of picking up a Breitling Colt Skyracer for twice the cost. The Skyracer is less accurate, has no perpetual calendar and it's second hand is not hitting it's markers. It's enroute back to Breitling for warranty work after just three months. I'm very pleased with the Longines VHP and will probably pick up their chrono model when it's released.


----------



## ronalddheld

5x10 said:


> I picked up the blue faced model, 41mm. I concur with GMF's comments regarding it's thickness, comfort and lack of rattle. I picked mine up at Macy's for MSRP ($1,000) less 15%, $850 plus tax. It comes with a two year factory warranty. Generally, anything electronic will go bad in the first 90 days of operation. With a two year warranty, a five year battery life coupled with ETA construction, I'll put my money on it running a good long while. I made the mistake of picking up a Breitling Colt Skyracer for twice the cost. The Skyracer is less accurate, has no perpetual calendar and it's second hand is not hitting it's markers. It's enroute back to Breitling for warranty work after just three months. I'm very pleased with the Longines VHP and will probably pick up their chrono model when it's released.


Welcome. Good choices for first HAQs even if the Colt had problems.


----------



## cat of a different coat

Thanks all. It's tough to decide between this, skimping and getting the Seiko Dolce, or spending a bit extra and getting a Grand Seiko or Citizen Chronomaster. I think overall I like the sportiness of the VHP the best though.



5x10 said:


> I picked mine up at Macy's for MSRP ($1,000) less 15%, $850 plus tax.


Any tips for getting a discount at Macy's? I tried a 25% off coupon on the website that I got for signing up for email marketing, but when I added the VHP to my cart and checked out, it didn't work because watches (at least this one) were in the exclusions.

I'd prefer to buy online as I know our local Macy's store here won't have it, and I really don't like dealing with retail anyway, especially not in the holiday season.

The longines site appears to be sold out.


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## tmathes

Macy's often doesn't have Longines as eligible in their coupons but a few times a year they do. As I remember back around Mother's Day the Longines watches were eligible for coupon discounts.

Another route is to try the Longines forum's sponsor, Topper Jewelers. Give Rob Caplan a call (he and his brother own the store, Rob is "the watch dude"). He is fantastic to deal with. Make sure you tell him you're a WUS member. I've bought 4 watches from him. Rob may not have this one in stock but can get nearly any Swatch brand in the US catalog and at a price I think you will be satisfied with.


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## Tom-HK

I see there's now another version on offer:


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## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I see there's now another version on offer:


That must be the Christmas_Special_With_Free_Instruction_Book version. One day only sale. Are they charging extra for the incompatible colours? I guess that once they start down that road, they'll be producing custom paint jobs for every customer. Go-faster stripes are of course completely banned.


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## Tom-HK

I think I recall having read that it is for the 2018 Commonwealth Games.


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## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I think I recall having read that it is for the 2018 Commonwealth Games.


Which events? Broken watch hurling. EOL hand jumping. Synchronised swimming (in very shallow water).


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## Tom-HK

chris01 said:


> Which events? Broken watch hurling. EOL hand jumping. Synchronised swimming (in very shallow water).


A fittingly dry sense of humour, you have there, Chris ;-) . I didn't want to dive too deeply into the particulars of the model. Someone clearly thought a splash of colour wouldn't hurt (at least, not as much as a splash of water). And if the rationale behind the design is as impenetrable as the operating instructions then at least Longines is being consistent.


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Which events? Broken watch hurling. EOL hand jumping. Synchronised swimming (in very shallow water).


Sounds like the makings of a good Monty Python sketch. :-d


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## chris01

If you can't have a good laugh at Herr Walter von Känel's expense, then you should take up a more serious hobby, like bungee jumping or mud wrestling. A Merry Christmas and a very watch-intensive New Year to all. As for 5 SPY: Viel Glück damit, meine Freunde!


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## GMT-man

At least it is accurate (ehe..) to say that my Christmas will be merry. While the V.H.P.s will not arrive in local shops until February or so, I will be wearing one tomorrow evening, sourced by Santa himself (herself in this case)... A white 41mm one.

Happy Holidays!


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## bobusa

GMT-man said:


> At least it is accurate (ehe..) to say that my Christmas will be merry. While the V.H.P.s will not arrive in local shops until February or so, I will be wearing one tomorrow evening, sourced by Santa himself (herself in this case)... A white 41mm one.
> 
> Happy Holidays!


My white one arrived today that I purchased from one of the gentleman member here. I liked it but I guess blue version will look much better. Not available yet in their US site

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Willwulf

Bought my 3 hander on November 28th 2017 for $850 at Macys in Fairfax Virginia USA. Love it. Had it on my wrist now for almost one month and it hasn't gained or lost 1 second. The only two things I would like improved upon would be WR of, at least, 100 meters and a slightly smaller size...either 39 or 40mm. Other than that, I am quite satisfied. I think Longines has a real winner with this one. I am saving up to buy the chronograph model.


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## bobusa

Willwulf said:


> Bought my 3 hander on November 28th 2017 for $850 at Macys in Fairfax Virginia USA. Love it. Had it on my wrist now for almost one month and it hasn't gained or lost 1 second. The only two things I would like improved upon would be WR of, at least, 100 meters and a slightly smaller size...either 39 or 40mm. Other than that, I am quite satisfied. I think Longines has a real winner with this one. I am saving up to buy the chronograph model.


What color?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bender.Folder

anyone got the chronograph model ? Would likely see some real life wristshots, all those on internet are a bit too commercial or 'pro' to my taste.


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## Soh1982

I have tried emailing a couple of ADs to find out if they have the chronograph version yet but have gotten no reply. Does anyone know if chronograph version has been released in USA?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmathes

Soh1982 said:


> I have tried emailing a couple of ADs to find out if they have the chronograph version yet but have gotten no reply. Does anyone know if chronograph version has been released in USA?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If the Longines web store is a good proxy of what is available from ADs, then the answer is "no".


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## gaijin

Maybe I missed it, but has anyone done an accuracy study of the new VHP to confirm the claim of +5spy? After the initial Bulova Precisionist fiasco, I'm a little gun shy about trusting a manufacturer's spec at time of new product introduction.

Any info would be appreciated.


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## ronalddheld

Chris would remember.


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## chris01

gaijin said:


> Maybe I missed it, but has anyone done an accuracy study of the new VHP to confirm the claim of +5spy? After the initial Bulova Precisionist fiasco, I'm a little gun shy about trusting a manufacturer's spec at time of new product introduction.
> 
> Any info would be appreciated.


Since 1 Jan, when I started testing, mine has remained below +4 SPY, but has varied considerably and I don't believe that I yet have a stable result for predicting (guessing) a full year's performance. The only true measure of annual performance is of course 12 months' measurement. The factors to be considered are

(a) Variation in ambient temperature and wearing pattern. This has an effect on any watch, including TCs. After all, if you put any quartz in an oven at the optimum temperature _*for that individual watch*_, it will outperform any watch left in the free air. To allow just for seasonal variations you need to test for a whole year. Then there is the difficult issue of wearing pattern ...

(b) Compounded measurement errors. An error of 50mS in a single day's measurement will be an error of 18 SPY. So the longer the period of testing the better. After 1 month the same measurement error will be about 0.6 SPY.

(c) Variation in the basic performance of the watch. This can be due to all sorts of unknown factors, and we have to hope that our watch behaves itself.

I run concurrent tests on several well-understood watches (mostly older VHP) and I am not yet seeing the hoped-for settling into a pattern that I expect from my other watches.

To illustrate, here is my early plot of results. The blue and red lines are Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar models; green is a Flagship VHP PC; the brown is an older VHP ladies' model; and black is the new VHP. I removed the first couple of days' values as they were all over the place. The old VHP was restarted after a battery change. Ignore the dotted purple line; this is a temperature indicator that is meaningless in this context.


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Chris would remember.


I don't remember seeing anything very specific. The expected "dead nuts accurate!", that we see too often, hasn't yet become common.


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## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> I don't remember seeing anything very specific. The expected "dead nuts accurate!", that we see too often, hasn't yet become common.


Mr. Moderator knew you would be the one most likely to have the answer.


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## Soh1982

gaijin said:


> Maybe I missed it, but has anyone done an accuracy study of the new VHP to confirm the claim of +5spy? After the initial Bulova Precisionist fiasco, I'm a little gun shy about trusting a manufacturer's spec at time of new product introduction.
> 
> Any info would be appreciated.


For 2 weeks it didn't lose or gain a single second. But it's just 2 weeks.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Soh1982

tmathes said:


> If the Longines web store is a good proxy of what is available from ADs, then the answer is "no".


That's what I am afraid of too because I couldn't find it on us web store. But I hope we are wrong because I really want that chronograph!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GMT-man

Soh1982 said:


> For 2 weeks it didn't lose or gain a single second. But it's just 2 weeks.


I set my VHP in time on Christmas Day, as accurately as I could with *time.is* server, maybe within 50 ms. Now they still are perfectly in sync as far as eye can see.


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## tmathes

GMT-man said:


> I set my VHP in time on Christmas Day, as accurately as I could with *time.is* server, maybe within 50 ms. Now they still are perfectly in sync as far as eye can see.


I wasn't aware of that site. I compared it to time.gov and the .gov web site every so slightly leads the .is site. I tried refreshing both a few times, no difference.

How can you tell which is "more correct"? Use the WWV shortwave broadcast as a tie breaker? :-d


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## GMT-man

tmathes said:


> I wasn't aware of that site. I compared it to time.gov and the .gov web site every so slightly leads the .is site. I tried refreshing both a few times, no difference.
> 
> How can you tell which is "more correct"? Use the WWV shortwave broadcast as a tie breaker? :-d


I compared three different sites (Time.is, time.gov and Finnish government site) and they all were slightly different. I have my laptop locked to the Finnish site and it seems to wary up to almost 2 seconds sometimes from Time.is, and my VHP, so I trust time.is more. At least time.is gives an approximation of the sync error which the others do not do.

time.gov for me is slightly late from both the Finnish site and time.is, maybe because distance delays. Which might be accounted for, or not, does not say. Anyway the difference is about 3 deciseconds at most.

Summa summarum: internet time servers are NOT exactly right to the millisecond, not even centisecond, but maybe to decisecond. Time.is seems to sync within 1-4 centiseconds by its own reckoning.

Radio time signals are very inaccurate if digital signal relay systems are used in the transmission chain. Analog signals used to be accurate to within a decisecond, now digitally transmitted signals can be off, that is, late, a full second even. Radio systems designed for time signals only are a different matter, of course.


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## ChristopherJ

Getting accurate time is a subject that I find confusing when several sources purporting to show accurate time are not in sync. At the moment, having updated my computer time to time.windows.com and also with time.nist.gov, both are between 1.7 and 1.9 seconds behind time.is. I then set worldtimeserver.com and time.is running alongside each other in separate windows on my desktop windows 10 PC and found that there is a further 2 seconds difference so between them all I have a range of nearly 4 seconds! I know that when we are talking about accuracy with these watches as long as you use a consistent reference point then that should be fine but I am really confused as to how you start off trying to get the "correct" time in the first place.

I am aware that digital signal processing can introduce all sorts of timing errors. You only have to put two digital TVs of different makes together to hear that but I did at least think that I could get an accurate time on the internet. There has been a debate in the UK press recently about the supposed (in)accuracy of the Greenwich Time Signal BBC "pips". I am well aware that the DAB signal is now always behind the FM. Sailors at sea used to rely on these to set navigation equipment where a second difference could mean a mile or so at sea. Nowadays I suppose they are mostly using GPS? 

I do have several clocks in my house taking the NPL MSF signal from Anthorn and they are all in sync. What should I trust as an accurate reference? Is there a recognised "world" standard and if so, how can you be sure you are seeing it in real time without caching or signal processing delays?


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## chris01

ChristopherJ said:


> Getting accurate time is a subject that I find confusing when several sources purporting to show accurate time are not in sync. At the moment, having updated my computer time to time.windows.com and also with time.nist.gov, both are between 1.7 and 1.9 seconds behind time.is. I then set worldtimeserver.com and time.is running alongside each other in separate windows on my desktop windows 10 PC and found that there is a further 2 seconds difference so between them all I have a range of nearly 4 seconds! I know that when we are talking about accuracy with these watches as long as you use a consistent reference point then that should be fine but I am really confused as to how you start off trying to get the "correct" time in the first place.
> 
> I am aware that digital signal processing can introduce all sorts of timing errors. You only have to put two digital TVs of different makes together to hear that but I did at least think that I could get an accurate time on the internet. There has been a debate in the UK press recently about the supposed (in)accuracy of the Greenwich Time Signal BBC "pips". I am well aware that the DAB signal is now always behind the FM. Sailors at sea used to rely on these to set navigation equipment where a second difference could mean a mile or so at sea. Nowadays I suppose they are mostly using GPS?
> 
> I do have several clocks in my house taking the NPL MSF signal from Anthorn and they are all in sync. What should I trust as an accurate reference? Is there a recognised "world" standard and if so, how can you be sure you are seeing it in real time without caching or signal processing delays?


Not an easy problem to solve. One important point about using a Windows PC to display the time (from whatever source) is the rather unpredictable delay in collecting the data and then putting that information on the screen. Especially so if you're running several windows to compare time sources. Not unlike the BBC time signal, there's a lot of stuff going on in the background. I have never been impressed with the consistency of the displayed time from the various web sources.

At one time I used a GPS receiver connected to my PC's serial port, with some clever software to extract the time and the GPS 1PPS signal. This gave a very good internal clock setting, but actually displaying that on the screen was unreliable. My current setup, which would probably be overkill for many people  , is a LeoNTP GPS clock with NTP time server that has its own OLED time display. Not hugely more accurate in setting the base time, but there is no appreciable delay in displaying it. LeoNTP Networked Time NTP Server [NTP_Server] - 300.00GBP : Leo Bodnar, Simulator Electronics

Given that the main requirement in assessing our watches' performance is consistency, rather than absolute accuracy, your RC clocks may be your best source. Any delay in displaying the received time data is likely to be pretty constant. Try testing your clocks against each other (you could force a synch just before measuring, to minimise the subsequent inaccuracy of the free-running clocks), plot the results, and pick the most reliable as your time source.

In case you haven't seen it, here is a good thread on time measurement: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752.html


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## wbird

I guess we could revisit the reference thread again, because I couldn't reproduce this error. I loaded time.is, time.gov on a pretty fast computer connected directly to the router, and syncd a Citizen RC, a Casio RC, a Garmin GPS, loaded emerald time via wifi to the same router on the iPhone, than checked them all by burst photography and they all were within 100ms. The resolution of burst photagraphy.

I allowed them all to stabilize for a couple of minutes after a couple of refreshes. I could see the differences on the initial load of the time sites and app.

Perhaps this is a Europe or Internet carrier speed issue, or any one of a number of things don't know. But if all else fails an Apple watch is good to 50ms.


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## DCOmegafan

I tried this watch on them other day at Tourneau. It fit my small 6.5" wrist well, and what really pleased me was the dial texture. Really sharp. I'm on the fence about the Arabic indices, and I would.also like 100 wr. Basically, I like the idea of a highly precise grab and go watch that I can take anywhere, dress or casual, beach or office, and have the precise time. This comes close, as does the Certina chronometer.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Willwulf

Hi bobusa,
I bought the white dial model; also, it has neither gained nor lost one second as of this writing, almost two months now on my wrist.


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## Tom-HK

Willwulf said:


> Hi bobusa,
> I bought the white dial model; also, it has neither gained nor lost one second as of this writing, almost two months now on my wrist.


It's great that people care about accuracy and are tracking it in these new VHPs. Having said that, I would like to briefly promote the merits of a scientific approach to measuring the accuracy of HAQs. When measuring the performance of a watch that is spec'd to gain or lose no more than five seconds over twelve months, measurements need to be fairly precise and start from a defined baseline.

After two months a VHP should be within about 0.8 seconds, if it's on-spec. The problem with the eyeball method without a defined baseline is that still being 'within a second' of true time could, in theory, mean an actual drift of nearly two seconds.


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## GMT-man

Willwulf said:


> Hi bobusa,
> I bought the white dial model; also, it has neither gained nor lost one second as of this writing, almost two months now on my wrist.


My month old white dial 41mm V.H.P. is running +0.01 sec a day, has gained 0.3 sec (estimate, but I think quite accurate). That would mean +3.9 SPY, well within spec.


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## adashu

new youtube review out on it


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## ChristopherJ

I can see how you can change the hours or minutes but is there a way to set the watch against a specific time signal? Everything that I have seen and read so far implies that once Longines has set the second hand when the watch is first programmed then that is then set and cannot be changed by the user. I have never had a watch before that could not be synchronised to an external time source. Maybe this watch is so accurate that once set you live with "Longines" time?


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## chris01

ChristopherJ said:


> I can see how you can change the hours or minutes but is there a way to set the watch against a specific time signal? Everything that I have seen and read so far implies that once Longines has set the second hand when the watch is first programmed then that is then set and cannot be changed by the user. I have never had a watch before that could not be synchronised to an external time source. Maybe this watch is so accurate that once set you live with "Longines" time?


That's a complete misunderstanding of how it works. You can find the user manual here:
https://www.longines.com/user-manual


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## GMT-man

ChristopherJ said:


> I can see how you can change the hours or minutes but is there a way to set the watch against a specific time signal? Everything that I have seen and read so far implies that once Longines has set the second hand when the watch is first programmed then that is then set and cannot be changed by the user. I have never had a watch before that could not be synchronised to an external time source. Maybe this watch is so accurate that once set you live with "Longines" time?


You can stop the watch, second hand goes automatically to zero, set minute and hour hands where needed, push the crown in which starts the watch running. When I got the watch it was a few seconds off, so I did this and I was able to sync in with time.is server with about 0.05 sec accuracy, or as accurately as eye can see. I did this at Christmas, now the watch is about +0.3 sec, which means about +3 SPY, as good or better than promised.

Date can be adjusted only +- one day by the user to keep the perpetual date accurate.


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## ChristopherJ

Thank you Chris01 for your post but I had read the manual but found it a bit confusing. It talks of adjusting the time hour by hour or minute by minute but not second by second. I was uncertain if when then second hand returned to 12 it could be started from there on a time signal or would jump back to where the processor had deemed it should be somewhere else when the crown was pushed back in. GMT-man has now confirmed that you can actually stop the watch and start it on a time signal which is what I was hoping. The manual does not make this clear in my opinion.


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## chris01

ChristopherJ said:


> Thank you Chris01 for your post but I had read the manual but found it a bit confusing. It talks of adjusting the time hour by hour or minute by minute but not second by second. I was uncertain if when then second hand returned to 12 it could be started from there on a time signal or would jump back to where the processor had deemed it should be somewhere else when the crown was pushed back in. GMT-man has now confirmed that you can actually stop the watch and start it on a time signal which is what I was hoping. The manual does not make this clear in my opinion.


Quite apart from not even including a relevant manual with the watch, Longines have done a pretty poor job with the downloadable version.

One point that seems to be discoverable only by experiment is the behaviour on slow and fast twirling of the crown.

If you pull out the crown and do a fast twist, the seconds hand is unaffected and the correct time will be resumed when the crown is pushed in.

If you turn the crown slowly the seconds hand is set to 12, ready for adjusting the time and then hacking on the minute. However, if you then do a fast twist before pushing in the crown, the seconds hand will resume its prior setting.

It all seems unnecessarily complicated, especially when compared with the VHP perpetual calendar models of the early 2000s, which worked as you would normally expect, and which also allowed you to adjust the calendar setting (provided you had the required documentation!).


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## ChristopherJ

I couldn't agree more strongly. I currently have one of the last of the old series bought in 2006 and previously owned but sold one of the earlier series back in the early 90s. It is almost as though the technical people who I believe have done an excellent job live on a different planet to the marketing people who presumably are responsible for the packaging and customer documentation. To launch a range that must have been in preparation for many a month, if not years, in an expensive box with an enormous manual in multifarious languages that is totally irrelevant to the actual watch in the package would be a sacking offence in my book. Heads would definitely roll in the world in which I earned my living before retirement. It makes the company look totally incompetent which is very sad as they actually make some very good products.


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## chris01

ChristopherJ said:


> I couldn't agree more strongly. I currently have one of the last of the old series bought in 2006 and previously owned but sold one of the earlier series back in the early 90s. It is almost as though the technical people who I believe have done an excellent job live on a different planet to the marketing people who presumably are responsible for the packaging and customer documentation. To launch a range that must have been in preparation for many a month, if not years, in an expensive box with an enormous manual in multifarious languages that is totally irrelevant to the actual watch in the package would be a sacking offence in my book. Heads would definitely roll in the world in which I earned my living before retirement. It makes the company look totally incompetent which is very sad as they actually make some very good products.


I believe the problem with Longines is that they have become so distracted by their obsession with brand ambassadors, minor 'celebrities', horses, skiing, and tennis that they have forgotten what their core business used to be: producing fine watches and caring about their customers. Like you I've had an enthusiasm for VHPs since my first in 1986, and I still have three PC models, and a ladies' VHP, if Swatch ever get round to fixing it. The new watch is interesting but I can't describe it as any kind of improvement on the 15-year old versions. The manual is a disgrace.

And if you want some truly meaningful VHP news try this:
https://timeandtidewatches.com/even...chan-opens-longines-flagship-sydney-boutique/


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## DCOmegafan

chris01 said:


> I believe the problem with Longines is that they have become so distracted by their obsession with brand ambassadors, minor 'celebrities', horses, skiing, and tennis that they have forgotten what their core business used to be: producing fine watches and caring about their customers. Like you I've had an enthusiasm for VHPs since my first in 1986, and I still have three PC models, and a ladies' VHP, if Swatch ever get round to fixing it. The new watch is interesting but I can't describe it as any kind of improvement on the 15-year old versions. The manual is a disgrace.
> 
> And if you want some truly meaningful VHP news try this:
> https://timeandtidewatches.com/even...chan-opens-longines-flagship-sydney-boutique/


Longines is making boatloads of money right now, primarily in China. They don't care.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## chris01

DCOmegafan said:


> Longines is making boatloads of money right now, primarily in China. They don't care.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Of course, and it's their right to run their business as they see fit. I just don't see the point of developing a (partly) brand-new technology, making a big deal about it, then releasing such a mediocre package, whichever continent it's sold in.


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## DCOmegafan

chris01 said:


> Of course, and it's their right to run their business as they see fit. I just don't see the point of developing a (partly) brand-new technology, making a big deal about it, then releasing such a mediocre package, whichever continent it's sold in.


We don't disagree.

Frankly, most of their designs are unremarkable. They cater to people attracted by brand but who otherwise aren't into watches. This they pour money into branding. I do like the VHP, though.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## cfmcmillan

I recently got a Longines VHP and decided to measure its performance in the same way I have measured a Morgenwerk, Tissot HAQ and several Bulovas, that is, using a MicroSet 4 to measure the drift relative to the Pulse per Second (PPS) output from a GPS receiver. I have described this technique fully in other posts so I won't elaborate here.

The graph below shows the performance of my particular VHP over about a three day period. The slope of the line indicates the number of seconds drift per day.







​Using all of the data points, a least-squares fit to these data produces a drift of -0.023 +- 0.00002 s/day or approximately 8.4 s/yr fast. At least for this particular instantiation of the watch, it is not consistent with the +- 5 s/yr advertising (I would note that they say "typically" so I'm sure this gives them an "out").

For comparison, using the same measurement technique, the Bulova Moon Watch is running about 2.5 s/yr slow and the Bulova Accutron II is running about 8.1 s/yr fast. The Tissot with an ETA F06.411 is running about 11 s/yr fast. Thus, while it appears that ETA may have made a movement that's a bit better than the F06.411, the Bulovas hit very similar performance marks with much less advertising hype and at a much lower price point.


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## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> I recently got a Longines VHP and decided to measure its performance in the same way I have measured a Morgenwerk, Tissot HAQ and several Bulovas, that is, using a MicroSet 4 to measure the drift relative to the Pulse per Second (PPS) output from a GPS receiver. I have described this technique fully in other posts so I won't elaborate here.
> 
> The graph below shows the performance of my particular VHP over about a three day period. The slope of the line indicates the number of seconds drift per day.
> ​Using all of the data points, a least-squares fit to these data produces a drift of -0.023 +- 0.00002 s/day or approximately 8.4 s/yr fast. At least for this particular instantiation of the watch, it is not consistent with the +- 5 s/yr advertising (I would note that they say "typically" so I'm sure this gives them an "out").
> 
> For comparison, using the same measurement technique, the Bulova Moon Watch is running about 2.5 s/yr slow and the Bulova Accutron II is running about 8.1 s/yr fast. The Tissot with an ETA F06.411 is running about 11 s/yr fast. Thus, while it appears that ETA may have made a movement that's a bit better than the F06.411, the Bulovas hit very similar performance marks with much less advertising hype and at a much lower price point.


Interesting to see the first report of a not 'dead nuts accurate' VHP, after some proper measurement. I wasn't going to report on mine yet, but I get exactly the same rate (+7.9 to +8.1 SPY) after 6 weeks' daily measurement. This is worse than any of my other HAQs. Mine is going back to Longines via my very sympathetic AD, and I'll report on what happens. My three old VHP PCs are currently at +2.3, +0.2 and -0.1 under the same conditions.


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## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Interesting to see the first report of a not 'dead nuts accurate' VHP, after some proper measurement. I wasn't going to report on mine yet, but I get exactly the same rate (+7.9 to +8.1 SPY) after 6 weeks' daily measurement. This is worse than any of my other HAQs. Mine is going back to Longines via my very sympathetic AD, and I'll report on what happens. My three old VHP PCs are currently at +2.3, +0.2 and -0.1 under the same conditions.


8 seconds per year for an unworn watch isn't bad. When I assume that neither of you has worn the watch while measuring.

But it is not under five, as claimed by Longines.

They need to be more conscientious with their claims.


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## DCOmegafan

I respect the Bulova movements, but their HAQ watches tend to be stupid big or just plain ugly. I'd happily buy one with better designs.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## DCOmegafan

I take it back. Here's one Bulova Accutron II I find seriously tempting: Amazon


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## tmathes

I have four Bulova watches with their 262kHz movement and all four are within +14 sec/yr. or trending so in the last 18 months (Lunar Pilot, Surveyor, CURV and Precisionst). One (Lunar Pilot) is within 7 sec/yr in the last 9 months. That's better than either of my two Certinas Precidrives, made several months apart from each other and in very different designs (DS2 and DS8), they are more like 15-16/sec/yr (DS8) and 24 sec/yr for the DS2. 

I have no doubt Swatch can make a high accuracy quartz movement that doesn't drift and hits their claimed specs but their manufacturing processes leave much to be desired compared to the Japanese, specifically, Swatch does a lousy job trimming in production. In my limited sample I have six watches that reinforce the point. 

I know trimming precisely is a big deal to pull off properly since I design precision analog circuits for a living and know how hard it is in production. I just don't think Swatch takes enough care to hit such amazing tight tolerances in a high volume environment. This is the same company that can't get the hands on a watch to align properly when they charge you $5,000 (yes, I experienced that personally on more than one occasion also, an Omega and even on my first DS2).


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## tmathes

DCOmegafan said:


> I take it back. Here's one Bulova Accutron II I find serious....
> 
> I have the "more rounded" Surveyor design of this watch, same movement. I love it: smooth sweep second hand, excellent accuracy, as good as the Precidrive (actually better) in my experience makes it worth it. If you like that watch grab it NOW. The entire Accutron II line went out of production last year and that particular model is getting tough to find and typically sells for much more than Amazon charges.


----------



## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> Interesting to see the first report of a not 'dead nuts accurate' VHP, after some proper measurement. I wasn't going to report on mine yet, but I get exactly the same rate (+7.9 to +8.1 SPY) after 6 weeks' daily measurement. This is worse than any of my other HAQs. Mine is going back to Longines via my very sympathetic AD, and I'll report on what happens. My three old VHP PCs are currently at +2.3, +0.2 and -0.1 under the same conditions.


A sample size of two watches is still VERY small, but it's noticeably bigger than one. Let me know what happens with the servicing on your VHP. If it improves things, I may well send mine in and have them calibrate it.


----------



## cfmcmillan

Hans Moleman said:


> 8 seconds per year for an unworn watch isn't bad. When I assume that neither of you has worn the watch while measuring.
> 
> But it is not under five, as claimed by Longines.
> 
> They need to be more conscientious with their claims.


You're right. While I've worn the watch, I can't measure it and wear it at the same time.


----------



## DCOmegafan

tmathes said:


> I have four Bulova watches with their 262kHz movement and all four are within +14 sec/yr. or trending so in the last 18 months (Lunar Pilot, Surveyor, CURV and Precisionst). One (Lunar Pilot) is within 7 sec/yr in the last 9 months. That's better than either of my two Certinas Precidrives, made several months apart from each other and in very different designs (DS2 and DS8), they are more like 15-16/sec/yr (DS8) and 24 sec/yr for the DS2.
> 
> I have no doubt Swatch can make a high accuracy quartz movement that doesn't drift and hits their claimed specs but their manufacturing processes leave much to be desired compared to the Japanese, specifically, Swatch does a lousy job trimming in production. In my limited sample I have six watches that reinforce the point.
> 
> I know trimming precisely is a big deal to pull off properly since I design precision analog circuits for a living and know how hard it is in production. I just don't think Swatch takes enough care to hit such amazing tight tolerances in a high volume environment. This is the same company that can't get the hands on a watch to align properly when they charge you $5,000 (yes, I experienced that personally on more than one occasion also, an Omega and even on my first DS2).


I would happily buy the Bulova moon watch if it were smaller. I find it odd that it should be larger than the Omega moon watch. The Omega fits my wrist well, thanks in part to a short lug-to-lug distance. The Bulova hangs over by quite a bit.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> You're right. While I've worn the watch, I can't measure it and wear it at the same time.


Longines may have blundered by not specifying a wearing pattern. While Certina can be accused of many failings in their marketing and presentation, at least their perfectly adequate manual for the DS-2 chrono (included with the watch!) states "around +/-10 SPY (under normal conditions of use)". No reasonable person could describe being one watch in a rotation of 20 as "normal", so there is an implied wearing pattern. Longines, however, seem to have little regard for what the stupid customer does once they have received his money.


----------



## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> Longines may have blundered by not specifying a wearing pattern. While Certina can be accused of many failings in their marketing and presentation, at least their perfectly adequate manual for the DS-2 chrono (included with the watch!) states "around +/-10 SPY (under normal conditions of use)". No reasonable person could describe being one watch in a rotation of 20 as "normal", so there is an implied wearing pattern. Longines, however, seem to have little regard for what the stupid customer does once they have received his money.


While I agree with you I also believe that most customers will be very happy with +8 seconds a year or so. And I don't think many will go through and dissect the phrasing in the manual as we do here.
But! Of course it is stupid of Longines not to just borrow that phrase from sister Certina. Not meeting specs is always bad. Lets see how the new VHPs will turn out in real life!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tom-HK

kapahoo said:


> While I agree with you I also believe that most customers will be very happy with +8 seconds a year or so.


This is one of the things that gets my goat, so to speak. Not meaning this as a personal attack, you understand, but just expressing my personal sense of irritation as a HAQer at what appears to be a fairly common sentiment : _it doesn't matter if a watch is off-spec because it's still pretty good by most measures_.

Off-spec is off-spec, regardless of how good it may be in comparison to most of the competition, and when that spec was a key selling point then owners _should_ hold the manufacturer to their promise. I was banging my head against a wall for weeks with Citizen when my 5 SPY watch was running at nearly 7 SPY and they tried over and over again to persuade me not to send it back to Japan because "it's still very accurate".


----------



## kapahoo

Tom-HK said:


> This is one of the things that gets my goat, so to speak. Not meaning this as a personal attack, you understand, but just expressing my personal sense of irritation as a HAQer at what appears to be a fairly common sentiment : _it doesn't matter if a watch is off-spec because it's still pretty good by most measures_.
> 
> Off-spec is off-spec, regardless of how good it may be in comparison to most of the competition, and when that spec was a key selling point then owners _should_ hold the manufacturer to their promise. I was banging my head against a wall for weeks with Citizen when my 5 SPY watch was running at nearly 7 SPY and they tried over and over again to persuade me not to send it back to Japan because "it's still very accurate".


Oh! I agree. Totally. I just don't think Longines will lose much money beeing off spec a sec or three here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

kapahoo said:


> Oh! I agree. Totally. I just don't think Longines will lose much money beeing off spec a sec or three here.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


While you are almost certainly right, I am more in agreement with Tom's view. Assuming that Longines/ETA haven't abandoned all calibration facilities for this movement (as opposed to making it inaccessible without special equipment) there is no acceptable reason for them to release watches that are way off spec. The concern I have is that their testing/calibration process depends on an average ambient temperature that is only achieved by a specific wearing pattern, and that they will report NFF. If their TC is good enough then it shouldn't matter.

We are currently beset by products being sold with a headline performance that cannot be achieved in reality - just consider car fuel consumption and emissions data (but please don't start a car debate here!).


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## ronalddheld

In the world, only those regularly here, and the Time-nuts really really care about precision in watched and other references.


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## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> In the world, only those regularly here, and the Time-nuts really really care about precision in watched and other references.


But that's still enough for Walter von Känel to predict that the first 40,000 VHPs would be 'gone' (needs expressive sound and hand gesture). Therefore many people must be attracted by the (possibly spurious) accuracy claim, even if they won't generally find out the truth.

See the video, from 4:18


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> But that's still enough for Walter von Känel to predict that the first 40,000 VHPs would be 'gone' *(needs expressive sound and hand gesture)*. Therefore many people must be attracted by the (possibly spurious) accuracy claim, even if they won't generally find out the truth.
> 
> See the video, from 4:18


Don't forget those fantastic eyebrows too! :-d

Maybe they'll hit those sales targets but only at deep discounts and not via authorized dealers. The watch is already showing up in the US on the gray market. That was fast, I expected at least a year before I saw that, not 3-4 months.


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## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> Longines may have blundered by not specifying a wearing pattern. While Certina can be accused of many failings in their marketing and presentation, at least their perfectly adequate manual for the DS-2 chrono (included with the watch!) states "around +/-10 SPY (under normal conditions of use)". No reasonable person could describe being one watch in a rotation of 20 as "normal", so there is an implied wearing pattern. Longines, however, seem to have little regard for what the stupid customer does once they have received his money.


In the measurements I made there were substantial temperature variations during the measurement. Warm during the day and cool at night. It looks to me like their temperature compensation is working pretty well. It's not obvious to me that we'd see a substantial change in rate at body temperature. Did you look at that in any detail in your measurements?


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## ronalddheld

Not likely at all that there are more than about a dozen regulars here. Maybe 2 dozen active Time-nut posters.


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## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> In the measurements I made there were substantial temperature variations during the measurement. Warm during the day and cool at night. It looks to me like their temperature compensation is working pretty well. It's not obvious to me that we'd see a substantial change in rate at body temperature. Did you look at that in any detail in your measurements?


My test has been mostly unworn, with the watch sitting on my desk. The temperature range (measured daily elsewhere in the house) has been 15-18 deg C.
The cumulative SPY values are shown as:
BLACK = new VHP
PURPLE = Certina DS-2 chrono
RED,BLUE,GREEN = old VHP Perpetual Calendar models
The dotted line is the arbitrary temperature, shown as a running 30-day average.









It does seem that the new VHP is running at a stable rate, as good as the PC watches, but is in need of rate adjustment. The DS-2 is worn almost daily and, if unworn, the rate rises significantly and cannot be adjusted by me. It should eventually settle down to 6-6.5 SPY.

The measurements were by the Stopwatch Method, with a GPS clock/NTP server as reference. I also tried a high-speed video (200 fps), with frame counting, and got the same result for the new VHP, within 0.2 SPY.


----------



## GMT-man

chris01 said:


> My test has been mostly unworn, with the watch sitting on my desk.


When I got my V.H.P. at Christmas I wore it continuously for about 3 weeks, running at less than +0.01 sec/day. Now, mostly unused, it seems to run slightly faster, but still within specs. Maybe the same is happening to your VHP, runs a bit fast unworn?


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## cfmcmillan

I took another look at my data and believe it may be possible to get a rough estimate of the slope variation - almost certainly the result of temperature variations. The graph below is slopes calculated over a 10 minute period (think of this as like boxcar averaging only with slopes) they are plotted centered on the 10 minute period).





​This is a very noisy plot, but nevertheless, you can see the daily trends. Remember that in these plots a negative slope means that the watch is running faster. Thus we see that mid-day, when the temperature is higher, the watch is running slower, in early morning when the temperature is lowest, the watch is running faster. Unfortunately, I wasn't running my temperature logger while I was collecting these data so I don't know the ambient temperature. It's easy to redo the experiment running the temperature logger. In addition, this prompts me to think about building a simple oven (ice chest with a low wattage light bulb in it??) to see if I can approximate something close to body temperature.

In short, it does look as though the watch will run slower if it's closer to body temperature.


----------



## ronalddheld

Good to see such a flat slope on the new VHP. Now if it could be regulated to 5s/y or better by Longines?
Should people wait a year to get theirs recalibrated, to take aging into account?


----------



## chris01

Rate v temperature is an interesting study, which in the short-term needs facilities that I don't have. Over a whole year's measurements, I have found that the VHP PCs, and an even older Ti VHP, all run faster in the summer than in the winter, while the PreciDrive (DS-2) runs faster when cooler. The newer watches seem to have a flatter response to the seasons. One would hope that the state of the TC art was giving an improved temperature insensitivity, but I'm not going to wait 6 months before finding that it doesn't.

The advantage of the older watches, of course, is that they can be tuned to the best rate for actual usage.


----------



## GMT-man

cfmcmillan said:


> In short, it does look as though the watch will run slower if it's closer to body temperature.


My thought exactly. My watch box is in a room where the average temperature is around 18C at the moment. I would think the wrist temperature for a watch would be somewhere around 30-32C or so. It is not the body temperature 37C unless you need wear the watch at a POW camp...


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## cfmcmillan

GMT-man said:


> My thought exactly. My watch box is in a room where the average temperature is around 18C at the moment. I would think the wrist temperature for a watch would be somewhere around 30-32C or so. It is not the body temperature 37C unless you need wear the watch at a POW camp...


I'm testing the temperature of an ice chest with a 25 watt light bulb in it right now. I should know if I can get into the 30-32 C range pretty quickly. If that works, then I should know what the rate of the watch is at those temperatures in a few days.


----------



## cfmcmillan

ronalddheld said:


> Good to see such a flat slopebon the new VHP. Nonifbit could be regulated to 5s/y or better by Longines?
> Should people wait a year to get theirs recalibrated, to take aging into account?


A lot more data will be required to answer the aging question.


----------



## DaveM

tmathes said:


> I know trimming precisely is a big deal to pull off properly since I design precision analog circuits for a living and know how hard it is in production.


I hear what you are saying, but a quartz-watch is a very special case. After the oscillator it is a totally digital system, so if the oscillator is stable and the software well designed production-line trimming should be easy.
The quartz crystal is the only hard bit. To be confident of 5s per-year its stability and the stability of its temperature-drift-curve need to be extraordinary.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to age each crystal for 10 years (like a good Scotch whisky). After all a bottle of Scotch is much cheaper than a Longines watch ! Longines could then publicise the 'heritage' laid down in their 'cellar'.

I am sceptical about any (not-manufacturer) rate-measurement method which use a timing-period of less than 5 day
A tolerance of 14ms due to detection-method or inhibition then gives an error of only 1 second per year !


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> I am sceptical about any (not-manufacturer) rate-measurement method which use a timing-period of less than 5 day
> A tolerance of 14ms due to detection-method or inhibition then gives an error of only 1 second per year !


One of the nice things about the MicroSet as a timing device is that it has a TC time base and measures at the microsecond level. I regularly test the calibration of the time base against the GPS PPS signal and have found it to be both stable and accurate. In addition, Bryan Mumford has put a 10-turn pot on the time base so that if it does drift, it's easy to recalibrate using the GPS signal.

I am, of course, making the assumption that GPS PPS is the time of the gods (or at least as close to that as we mortals are likely to get).


----------



## Miguel

Hi Everyone,

I took the plunge and bought the L3.716.4.76.6 version and started measuring on 2018-01-30. I am wearing the watch around 12 hours a day, rotating with my other watches. I take the measures on Mondays at 6:00 PM. The room temperature is between 18 and 21 degrees Celsius. The values in the graph represent 15 days:

Week 1: 6 days (set up at 5:00 PM on Tuesday 2018-01-30)
Week 2: 7 days
Week 3: current week, so only two days for now

So, in the few 15 days the watch is doing around 1.14 spy. I will wait 30 days of this pattern and then measure how it behave not wearing it. I would prefer if it was 40mmor 39mm. It is the same diameter as the Certina DS-2 Titanium but it wears bigger

Regards,

Miguel


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## DaveM

cfmcmillan said:


> One of the nice things about the MicroSet as a timing device is that it has a TC time base and measures at the microsecond level. I regularly test the calibration of the time base against the GPS PPS signal and have found it to be both stable and accurate. In addition, Bryan Mumford has put a 10-turn pot on the time base so that if it does drift, it's easy to recalibrate using the GPS signal.


I am willing to trust the MicroSet, but 2 things worry me

1) Inhibition. You need to know details of the mechanism in order to know how big a short-term alias it produces.
Adjustments due to the temperature-compensation mechanism could be very troublesome.

2) Detection. Hand-movements can be aliased by friction or gear backlash. Even sneaky 'flux detect' schemes could be aliased by noise on the flux signal.


----------



## cfmcmillan

Miguel said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I took the plunge and bought the L3.716.4.76.6 version and started measuring on 2018-01-30. I am wearing the watch around 12 hours a day, rotating with my other watches. I take the measures on Mondays at 6:00 PM. The room temperature is between 18 and 21 degrees Celsius. The values in the graph represent 15 days:
> 
> Week 1: 6 days (set up at 5:00 PM on Tuesday 2018-01-30)
> Week 2: 7 days
> Week 3: current week, so only two days for now
> 
> So, in the few 15 days the watch is doing around 1.14 spy. I will wait 30 days of this pattern and then measure how it behave not wearing it. I would prefer if it was 40mmor 39mm. It is the same diameter as the Certina DS-2 Titanium but it wears bigger
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Miguel


Could you please say a word about how you're doing the measurements?


----------



## cfmcmillan

I've done a quick test using the light bulb in the ice chest as a rough way to manage temperature. Using this very crude "oven" the temperature was held to 27+-1C over a couple of day period. Using the same measurement method as before, the drift of the VHP is 2.46 +- 0.0007 s/yr fast. Within the next day or so, I expect to receive a simple on/off temperature controller that should give me much stable temperatures in an insulated box. From a quick look at the data I've already collected, I suspect that the watch will be very stable at about 29C. 

It certainly looks as though the watch comes into spec very nicely at a somewhat higher temperature. It also sounds as though chris01 and I keep our houses at about the same average temperature.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> I've done a quick test using the light bulb in the ice chest as a rough way to manage temperature. Using this very crude "oven" the temperature was held to 27+-1C over a couple of day period. Using the same measurement method as before, the drift of the VHP is 2.46 +- 0.0007 s/yr fast. Within the next day or so, I expect to receive a simple on/off temperature controller that should give me much stable temperatures in an insulated box. From a quick look at the data I've already collected, I suspect that the watch will be very stable at about 29C.
> 
> It certainly looks as though the watch comes into spec very nicely at a somewhat higher temperature. It also sounds as though chris01 and I keep our houses at about the same average temperature.


Perhaps I should keep it in the kitchen with the oven door open. 

I'm now running a test with daily (14-hour) wear. Not that this will ever represent actual use.

Quartz movements | COSC

Interesting to note that the central temperature for quartz COSC certification is 23 deg, with +/-15 deg also specified.


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> 1) Inhibition. You need to know details of the mechanism in order to know how big a short-term alias it produces.
> Adjustments due to the temperature-compensation mechanism could be very troublesome.


The inhibition behavior can be seen in the plot below:








It looks as though the inhibition is occurring over a period of a couple of minutes rather than a couple days as the Morgenwerk does. However, it is certainly possible that something more will show up on longer time scale measurements.

However, given the smaller drift I'm seeing at higher temperatures (~27C), I suspect what you see here is the sum total of the of the inhibition.


----------



## Hans Moleman

cfmcmillan said:


> The inhibition behavior can be seen in the plot below:
> 
> View attachment 12902091
> 
> It looks as though the inhibition is occurring over a period of a couple of minutes rather than a couple days as the Morgenwerk does. However, it is certainly possible that something more will show up on longer time scale measurements.
> 
> However, given the smaller drift I'm seeing at higher temperatures (~27C), I suspect what you see here is the sum total of the of the inhibition.


Don't forget that for one measurement the MicroSet averages over 10 seconds.

You'll never see the exact time of the periodic VHP inhibition correction.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> The inhibition behavior can be seen in the plot below:
> 
> It looks as though the inhibition is occurring over a period of a couple of minutes rather than a couple days as the Morgenwerk does. However, it is certainly possible that something more will show up on longer time scale measurements.
> 
> However, given the smaller drift I'm seeing at higher temperatures (~27C), I suspect what you see here is the sum total of the of the inhibition.


I have no idea how to interpret this graph, but for information, the old VHP perp cal movement (ETA 252.611) had an inhibition period of 8 minutes, while for the DS-2 PreciDrive chronograph (ETA 251.264) it is 16 minutes, according to ETA's technical docs. No information on the new movement, of course.


----------



## cfmcmillan

Hans Moleman said:


> Don't forget that for one measurement the MicroSet averages over 10 seconds.
> 
> You'll never see the exact time of the periodic VHP inhibition correction.


Yes - you're certainly right.


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> I have no idea how to interpret this graph, but for information, the old VHP perp cal movement (ETA 252.611) had an inhibition period of 8 minutes, while for the DS-2 PreciDrive chronograph (ETA 251.264) it is 16 minutes, according to ETA's technical docs. No information on the new movement, of course.


That task is one of several done on this forum.


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> That task is one of several done on this forum.


Mr Moderator, we should have a sticky with fat bold letters: *The search function of WUS is excellent and your best friend so please, use it! ;-)*


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## Miguel

Hello,

I am using the stopwatch method using the time.is page as time reference. I also compare against my radio-controlled citizen to be sure it agrees with time.is. I found that I need to refresh time.is sometimes to have an accurate time.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> That task is one of several done on this forum.


Not sure what you're referring to. If it's my inability to follow the discussion on Microset, etc., then I really couldn't give a damn.
If there's a problem with providing known data that may have some impact on the puzzle about the new watch, then I plead guilty, but don't know what the problem is.


----------



## DaveM

cfmcmillan said:


> The inhibition behavior can be seen in the plot below:
> 
> View attachment 12902091
> 
> It looks as though the inhibition is occurring over a period of a couple of minutes rather than a couple days as the Morgenwerk does. However, it is certainly possible that something more will show up on longer time scale measurements.


Try this on for size :-
One year is 31,536,000 seconds
Assume that the xtal ticks 32,768 times every second.

Assume that the resolution of the inhibition mechanism is one second-per-year. 
If one tick is added (or subtracted) per inhibition this resolution is achieved by an inhibition-period of 16 minutes.
(31,536,000/32,768 seconds).

With 4 seconds per year resolution (adjust-per-push for old VHP) minimum inhibition-period is 4 minutes.
If the 32.768Khz XTAL generates a square-wave so that the 2 edges make a 65.536Khz clock we arrive at 2 minutes !

But for new VHP to be adjusted to 5 seconds-per-year a resolution of about 1 second-per-year would be needed
But perhaps the new VHP uses a higher xtal frequency ?


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr Moderator has tried to suggests search in the forum before posting questions. It has not met with much success.


----------



## cfmcmillan

*Early Results using temperature control*

I've made a few improvements to my temperature control setup. I'm now using a Styrofoam shipping box (intended for shipping medicines with blocks of ice inside) with a 7.5 watt light bulb inside as a heating element. The temperature controller also arrived, a simple on/off controller from Bayite (BTC201). It is only controlling the heating element, I do not have a cooling element (although it would control that as well if I had one). Since the ambient temperature is lower than the target temperatures, the box drifts down a few tenths of a degree C in a few minutes. Because the heating element is low power, there doesn't seem to be much overshoot. The controller allows 0.1°C control steps. My procedure has been to set the cut-off point 0.1°C above the target and to allow it to drift 0.1°C below the target.

Here are pictures of the outside of the "kluge oven" and the controller.















While the control probe is close to the watch, it is in a slightly different place. Hence, I've put the temperature logger on top of the watch as I do the measurement. I would also note that neither the logger nor the control probe are NIST traceable (nor have I done the obvious checks of putting them in ice water and boiling water as a quick check) so I would look at the temperature values with a bit of a jaundiced eye. Nevertheless, I believe it's fair to say that the temperature controller is holding the box at the location of the probe to about ±0.1°C.

I will include pictures of the inside of the box once I finish this data run. In addition, I will then pull out the temperature logger and read it to find out what it believes the temperature to be at the watch. However, as long as I'm collecting data, I want to leave the inside of the box in a stable configuration and not pull off the lid.

After a bit of running the temperature up and down, doing a few short runs against the GPS and some interpolation, I decided to do serious data collection at 25.7±0.1°C (as measured at the control probe). These data are shown below:








Note that the ordinate now has a much smaller range than before (and it's not just because of a shorter recording period). The slope of this line yields a rate of 0.64±0.06 sec/yr fast. As you can see, these data were recorded over about 12 hours; more are obviously needed. While this is probably not the exact temperature at which Longines did the calibration, it's probably pretty close. More data to follow. In addition, it's now relatively easy to do temperature runs at a range of temperatures and map out the rate as a function of temperature. That will take some time, but I suspect that it will illuminate Longines' assumptions in choosing their calibration temperature.


----------



## Miguel

chris01 said:


> Interesting to see the first report of a not 'dead nuts accurate' VHP, after some proper measurement. I wasn't going to report on mine yet, but I get exactly the same rate (+7.9 to +8.1 SPY) after 6 weeks' daily measurement. This is worse than any of my other HAQs. Mine is going back to Longines via my very sympathetic AD, and I'll report on what happens. My three old VHP PCs are currently at +2.3, +0.2 and -0.1 under the same conditions.


Hi Chris,

Have you already sent back the watch to through the AD? It really seems that there is something wrong with it. After just 18 days, mine goes at +1.04 spy and I am getting (finally) very consistant with my measurements (of course 18 days is not really significative). I wear it around 12 hours a day and will wait a little to start measuring with no wear time. Hopefully it will maintain still a good performance.

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> Try this on for size :-
> One year is 31,536,000 seconds
> Assume that the xtal ticks 32,768 times every second.
> 
> Assume that the resolution of the inhibition mechanism is one second-per-year.
> If one tick is added (or subtracted) per inhibition this resolution is achieved by an inhibition-period of 16 minutes.
> (31,536,000/32,768 seconds).
> 
> With 4 seconds per year resolution (adjust-per-push for old VHP) minimum inhibition-period is 4 minutes.
> If the 32.768Khz XTAL generates a square-wave so that the 2 edges make a 65.536Khz clock we arrive at 2 minutes !
> 
> But for new VHP to be adjusted to 5 seconds-per-year a resolution of about 1 second-per-year would be needed
> But perhaps the new VHP uses a higher xtal frequency ?


Your logic makes sense to me and probably explains why 4 minutes was chosen as the inhibition period for the ETA F06.411. In the plot shown below for one of the these movements, the inhibition is clearly seen:










The differences in peak heights are almost certainly because of aliasing as a result of the fact that the Microset samples every 10 seconds. Looking across six of the inhibition cycles they come in at ~4 minutes (3.997 if anyone cares what I mean by approximately) as advertised by ETA. The inhibition correction appears to be 873 ticks at 32768. I expect we'll eventually learn more about the ETA movement in the Longines but they may be holding details close to the chest right now.


----------



## chris01

Miguel said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Have you already sent back the watch to through the AD? It really seems that there is something wrong with it. After just 18 days, mine goes at +1.04 spy and I am getting (finally) very consistant with my measurements (of course 18 days is not really significative). I wear it around 12 hours a day and will wait a little to start measuring with no wear time. Hopefully it will maintain still a good performance.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel


Hi Miguel
Yes, it's going back to Longines. Unfortunately illness is preventing my trip to the dealer, so I'm running a test with daily wear, to see what difference that makes.
Good to hear that yours is doing well.
Chris.


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> Mr Moderator has tried to suggests search in the forum before posting questions. It has not met with much success.


If this was addressed in my direction then please explain. I'm not aware that I have recently asked any (dumb) questions.


----------



## cfmcmillan

After about 16 hours of recording, the error in the slope had been reduced to about 6% so I decided to start collecting data at other temperatures. The slope was 0.64±0.04 s/yr fast when the controller was set at 25.7°C. When I finished this collection, I read the data logger. The plot is shown below:








The average temperature recorded at the logger was 28.7±0.4°C (1 sigma). If the calibration of the logger is to be believed, it was a bit warmer at the watch than it was at the probe. It will be interesting to see what emerges in additional measurements.

Photos of the internal arrangement of the "kluge oven" are below.












​
In the photo on the right, the temperature probe enters on the top; the data logger that measures temperature is on top of the watch while the watch is on top of the inductive sensor.


----------



## ronalddheld

Chris, I am not calling younput. I would want Posters new to this forum, to use the search function first.


----------



## DaveM

cfmcmillan said:


> Your logic makes sense to me and probably explains why 4 minutes was chosen as the inhibition period for the ETA F06.411. In the plot shown below for one of the these movements, the inhibition is clearly seen:
> 
> The differences in peak heights are almost certainly because of aliasing as a result of the fact that the Microset samples every 10 seconds. Looking across six of the inhibition cycles they come in at ~4 minutes (3.997 if anyone cares what I mean by approximately) as advertised by ETA. The inhibition correction appears to be 873 ticks at 32768. I expect we'll eventually learn more about the ETA movement in the Longines but they may be holding details close to the chest right now.


I found a link to the manufacturing-information for F06.411 ( ETA portal ) on this old thread
forums.watchuseek.com/f9/disappointed-f06-411-eta-4353898.html

It says ( and all of this seems to be the Precidrive standard):- Typical initial rate with a normal wearing between 20 and 30C is +/- 10 seconds per year
COSC prescriptions :-
-73 to +73 ( typically 20) spy at 8C
-26 to +26 ( typically 10) spy at 23C
-73 to +73 ( typically 20) spy at 38C
The inhibition period is 960 seconds.
The rate must be checked with an instrument that allows measuring a period of 960 seconds and a precision of 0.1 ppm.
Check the rate at a temperature between 22° C and 24° C.

The only way that I can reconcile this specification with your curves is if they calculate inhibition over 16 minutes and then implement it in 4 approximately equal 4-minute doses. This would give 1 second-per-year resolution with 1/4 of the maximum time-jump. 
So your trace might be jumps of 883,883,883,884 instead of 1 jump (every 16 minutes ) of 3533


----------



## DaveM

Sorry about the 3-time posts above. My PC went a bit haywire !


----------



## watch-addict

DaveM,

Is something wrong with your keyboard - no need to post your scientific query three times.

I also wonder who cares about losing/gaining 8.7654321 or 8,7123456 per year.

Come on people - write something more interesting about VHP watches than all this temperature versus anything......


----------



## watch-addict

I would ask moderator to add a delete and edit function for us who post. Strange that both are not there.


----------



## ronalddheld

watch-addict said:


> DaveM,
> 
> Is something wrong with your keyboard - no need to post your scientific query three times.
> 
> I also wonder who cares about losing/gaining 8.7654321 or 8,7123456 per year.
> 
> Come on people - write something more interesting about VHP watches than all this temperature versus anything......


Mr. Moderator would suggest you refrain from making comments like that. This forum is more technical than most,and data collection drives our conclusions.


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> The only way that I can reconcile this specification with your curves is if they calculate inhibition over 16 minutes and then implement it in 4 approximately equal 4-minute doses. This would give 1 second-per-year resolution with 1/4 of the maximum time-jump.
> So your trace might be jumps of 883,883,883,884 instead of 1 jump (every 16 minutes ) of 3533


While I many not understand inhibition correctly, the way my watch seems to be set up is that it is intentionally running fast and then the deltas from inhibition are adjusted to give a stable run rate. Thus, I would expect that they might be different on each watch depending on the details of the crystal frequency.


----------



## Tom-HK

You often find that ETA's thermocompensated movements employ two forms of inhibition. The first is a correction of pre-programmed size at intervals of ten seconds. This corrects for the slightly fast running of the XO.

The second inhibition correction also comes at regular (albeit longer) intervals and applies a count adjustment of varying size according to the measured temperature. The precise size of the correction is determined by a pre-programmed reference table of the XO's thermal performance.


----------



## DaveM

cfmcmillan said:


> While I many not understand inhibition correctly, the way my watch seems to be set up is that it is intentionally running fast and then the deltas from inhibition are adjusted to give a stable run rate. Thus, I would expect that they might be different on each watch depending on the details of the crystal frequency.


Yes, it all makes sense. The crystal is probably manufactured to be nominally 100 parts-per-million fast to allow plenty of margin for the inhibition mechanism. The inhibition is then set up on the production-line, the 16 minutes overall period allowing a resolution of 1 second-per-year.
The running watch will also add in thermo-compensation, but this will be tiny compared with the constant 'calibration' element.


----------



## Hans Moleman

cfmcmillan said:


> While I many not understand inhibition correctly, the way my watch seems to be set up is that it is intentionally running fast and then the deltas from inhibition are adjusted to give a stable run rate. Thus, I would expect that they might be different on each watch depending on the details of the crystal frequency.


Have a look at Dwjquest measurements

One large periodic correction every 480 seconds. The calibration correction. It is a fixed amount. 
Two smaller periodic corrections within that. The temperature corrections. They are variable.

Inhibition: periodic corrections.

ETA advises to take measurements exactly 480 seconds apart. That is good advice. You need to make sure you've included all their corrections.


----------



## ppaulusz

Hans Moleman said:


> ...ETA advises to take measurements exactly 480 seconds apart...


Actually there have been 3 different inhibition (calibration correction) periods by ETA depending on the models:
- 240 seconds
- 480 seconds
- 960 seconds


----------



## jthole

Look what you all did!

I couldn't resist, and I have a 41mm VHP with a blue dial incoming ;-)

It was a tough competition between this, and a radio controlled quartz. But in the end, the appreciation for a watch that is inherently extremely accurate won me over. I hope to have it on my wrist before the end of the week.


----------



## watch-addict

jthole,

I'm sure you will like it. Got mine two weeks ago.


----------



## jthole

watch-addict said:


> jthole,
> 
> I'm sure you will like it. Got mine two weeks ago.


The bracelet is awful though ... already swapped that with a leather strap.


----------



## cfmcmillan

I have now collected rate data as a function of temperature from about 15°C to 30°C. I found that I needed about 16 hours of data collection to push the rate errors below about 10%. In order to reach 15°C and 20°C, I put a block of ice (in a plastic container of course) inside the thermal box shown in earlier posts. Since my "kludge oven" doesn't have a fan, this inevitably led to stratification with the air at the bottom being a bit cooler than the air above it. I chose to take the reading of the thermal logger that was sitting directly on top of the watch as a reasonable estimate for the temperature of the watch.

The plot below shows the relationship between watch rate and temperature including 1 sigma error bars in each direction:









Over this range, the results are approximately linear with the rate given by R [s/yr] = 1.004*T-29.3, in simple terms, the rate varies by about 1 s/yr for each change of 1°C and appears to be centered around a point between 29 and 30°C. The raw data are shown below - note that in this nomenclature, negative rates are fast, positive rates are slow:

T [°C] Rate[s/yr]


14.5-14.718.8-10.425.1-4.328.6-0.628.9-0.9729.751.3

As you can see, for temperatures between 25 and 30°C, the rate is well within the Longines spec. As an example of what might be a "normal" wear pattern, consider 16 hours at about 30°C and 8 hours at about 19°C. This would yield an average rate of 2.6 s/yr fast. Very respectable and again, well within specs. I'm sure there are many variations of the above that a watch manufacturer would have to consider, but it's at least an indication that, with what they might consider a reasonable wear pattern, the watch meets specs.

For those of us who are more likely to wear the watch intermittently, it may be that storing the watch in a cheap oven, such as the one I've built, at about 30°C is the functional equivalent of the mechanical watch owners who figure out which orientation to set their watch on the table at night so that the overall rate is about right.

Now that I am able to keep the watch at a stable temperature, I've taken another look at the inhibition behavior. Below are four minutes of the integrated error measured at 28.9°C using the TC timer in the MicroSet 4:








The inhibitions occur every 60 seconds and are each about 30 µsec in amplitude (I suspect that they are one tick at 32,768 Hz = 31 µsec). As you can see, at this temperature, they come very close to countering the cumulative error that has built up over the minute. There's probably more complexity to this that will emerge with longer measurements, but for a start, this part of the behavior seems pretty clear.

I should note one other improvement to the "kludge oven". I tried mounting the control sensor (hung from it's wire) in free space above the watch and temperature logger. This led to much better agreement between the setting of the controller and the temperature logger. In addition the temperature as recorded by the logger is much more stable than when the control sensor was mounted in the wall of the box. If anyone wishes to duplicate this "oven", I strongly recommend mounting the sensor in free space. As with other aspects of this oven, my solution is a kludge - I straightened a paper clip, wrapped it around the sensor wire and poked the end into the Styrofoam - simple, but effective.


----------



## DaveM

cfmcmillan said:


> The inhibitions occur every 60 seconds and are each about 30 µsec in amplitude (I suspect that they are one tick at 32,768 Hz = 31 µsec). As you can see, at this temperature, they come very close to countering the cumulative error that has built up over the minute. There's probably more complexity to this that will emerge with longer measurements, but for a start, this part of the behavior seems pretty clear.


I like it ! This is the obvious way to do it with a more capable control-chip. Rather than simplify the calculations by making one big correction at a uniform repetition-rate it calculates the fast/slow situation every few ms and subtracts (or adds ?) a clock-pulse when the time is out by more than one tick. On previous watches there is variable jump, fixed period. On this one fixed jump ( 1 tick), variable period.

I am a bit surprised by the time-rate vs temperature, the variation looks like a nice straight line, so why not reduce the variation ?
I guess that the variation is variable between xtals and they compensate to an average. They could not afford to measure the variation of each xtal !


----------



## Hans Moleman

cfmcmillan said:


> I have now collected rate data ...


Wow! That is very, very thorough.

And fortunately, it does not disagree with previous preliminary measurements.

I am happy that it looks like ETA put some novel ideas into this. And it has paid off.

The inhibition period, I am unconvinced. As you say; more complexity when you measure longer periods.

But that is some great measuring cfmcmillan.
|>


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> I am a bit surprised by the time-rate vs temperature, the variation looks like a nice straight line, so why not reduce the variation ?
> I guess that the variation is variable between xtals and they compensate to an average. They could not afford to measure the variation of each xtal !


I wonder what the overall volume is for a watch like this? I bought my watch while on vacation in Switzerland (Interlaken to be exact) from a Longines "boutique" there. They indicated that they had only gotten three of these watches since Oct. It left me with the impression that they aren't making a huge number of these.


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> I like it ! This is the obvious way to do it with a more capable control-chip. Rather than simplify the calculations by making one big correction at a uniform repetition-rate it calculates the fast/slow situation every few ms and subtracts (or adds ?) a clock-pulse when the time is out by more than one tick. On previous watches there is variable jump, fixed period. On this one fixed jump ( 1 tick), variable period.


The variable period, fixed correction amount is what is done by the Morgenwerk. It does a fixed 0.5 sec correction approximately every 2.5 days and adjusts the correction period based on the GPS sync. By using the GPS, it appears to take into account the average temperature of the watch as well as crystal aging.


----------



## cfmcmillan

While I think it unlikely that the watch will be as warm as 35°C, I've added a data point in that region for completeness. The data table is now:

Temp [°C] Rate [s/yr]


14.5-14.718.8-10.425.1-4.328.6-0.628.9-0.9729.751.334.75.8

The graph is still approximately linear and, with the new data point, the fit is R [s/yr] = 1.013*T - 29.5.


----------



## DaveM

Hans Moleman said:


> Wow! That is very, very thorough.
> 
> And fortunately, it does not disagree with previous preliminary measurements.
> 
> I am happy that it looks like ETA put some novel ideas into this. And it has paid off.
> 
> The inhibition period, I am unconvinced. As you say; more complexity when you measure longer periods.
> 
> But that is some great measuring cfmcmillan.
> |>


It is easy ( even in machine-code ) if you are a bit sneaky and uses very little computing power.
I agree about cfmcmillan's measuring and it is presented in a very easy-to-understand way


----------



## Hans Moleman

DaveM said:


> It is easy ( even in machine-code ) if you are a bit sneaky and uses very little computing power.
> I agree about cfmcmillan's measuring and it is presented in a very easy-to-understand way


Not only is it well presented, it is extremely useful:

It is a great predictor of "real life accuracy".

Everything on the surface of this earth is exposed to temperature changes. Blame the sun, if you must.

How little the watch is affected by these temperature changes, determines how accurate it runs.

Guess we now wait a few years until "real life accuracy" numbers roll in.


----------



## gaijin

cfmcmillan said:


> While I think it unlikely that the watch will be as warm as 35°C, I've added a data point in that region for completeness. The data table is now:
> 
> Temp [°C] Rate [s/yr]
> 
> 
> 14.5-14.718.8-10.425.1-4.328.6-0.628.9-0.9729.751.334.75.8
> 
> The graph is still approximately linear and, with the new data point, the fit is R [s/yr] = 1.013*T - 29.5.


You've done some great work here, thanks.

I'll admit I,m a bit confused, however. There have been various references by a few posters that this movement is Thermo-Compensated(TC), but there is no reference to TC in the Longines manual. Further, aren't your data at different temps a textbook example of a movement that is NOT TC?

So ... if the movement is TC, is it working appropriately? If not TC, shouldn't we make that clear when talking about this movement?

Again, thanks for the great work.


----------



## watch-addict

jthole,

I have no problems with bracelet and think it compliments the dark blue dial extremely well. My worst experience was a bracelet to Rado Centrix L, watch which costs twice as much as Longines VHP Quartz. It looked like a bracelet for a price of 15 Euros and got scratches after three days of wearing! I complained to the seller of the watch and they sent me an original brown Rado leather strap to satisfy my purchase.

What it's you opinion of Longines VHP watch you purchased? I still am extremely impressed by the change of dial color during the day.


----------



## ronalddheld

gaijin said:


> You've done some great work here, thanks.
> 
> I'll admit I,m a bit confused, however. There have been various references by a few posters that this movement is Thermo-Compensated(TC), but there is no reference to TC in the Longines manual. Further, aren't your data at different temps a textbook example of a movement that is NOT TC?
> 
> So ... if the movement is TC, is it working appropriately? If not TC, shouldn't we make that clear when talking about this movement?
> 
> Again, thanks for the great work.


The thermocompensation is working, but it is not 100% in removing all temperature effects.


----------



## jthole

Well, I am mostly interested in whether the watch meets the specs in practice, and how long it will keep doing that.

The watch is a nice looker, but not perfect. For instance, the colours of the dial and the date ring don't match. And I don't like the busy rehaut.

Maybe it would have been more comfortable if the bracelet didn't have a butterfly clasp. But then still the links are not rounded enough, so the edges push into my skin. Fortunately the watch works on leather as well.


----------



## watch-addict

jthole,

May I kindly ask you why you bought this watch? Too tight bracelet it was? Date ring? Busy rehaut?? I just can't get it.....

I had already strong look at it in March 2017 and it has meet my expectations. No problems at all with edges of bracelet on my part. 

Excellent to see the perfect tolerance in this VHP watch, when I hear that Rado automatic watches have tolerance of +10/-10 seconds per 24 hours.


----------



## jthole

Watch-addict, glad that you love the watch.

I am very interested in following the accuracy measurements, even if I can contribute very little myself.


----------



## DaveM

ronalddheld said:


> The thermocompensation is working, but it is not 100% in removing all temperature effects.


How can you be so sure ? They make a big deal about GPD but do not mention thermocompensation in any document that I have seen.
It also struck me that they might have managed to get the basic stability to a level where they do not think that thermocompensation is needed.
This movement is a different animal to standard Precidrive.


----------



## jthole

DaveM said:


> How can you be so sure ? They make a big deal about GPD but do not mention thermocompensation in any document that I have seen.


It would surprise me if they have not used any precidrive technology, especially since TC is proven ETA technology, and it would be way more difficult to reach 5spy without it. Without more information about the E56.111 movement, it remains a guess, of course (but it is interesting indeed that Precidrive movements have '411' in the model number).

In short; I don't know, but I am very curious.


----------



## DaveM

jthole said:


> It would surprise me if they have not used any precidrive technology, especially since TC is proven ETA technology, and it would be way more difficult to reach 5spy without it. Without more information about the E56.111 movement, it remains a guess, of course (but it is interesting indeed that Precidrive movements have '411' in the model number).
> 
> In short; I don't know, but I am very curious.


Yes, I hear what you say. My comment was based on 4 differences :-
>No Jewels
>2 way motors on time-axes
>GPD
>Different inhibition mechanism


----------



## hughesyn

DaveM said:


> How can you be so sure ? They make a big deal about GPD but do not mention thermocompensation in any document that I have seen.
> It also struck me that they might have managed to get the basic stability to a level where they do not think that thermocompensation is needed.
> This movement is a different animal to standard Precidrive.


There's no way it can not be thermocompensated.

20 spy difference between 14 and 35 degrees - there's no way normal quartz could achieve that.
And don't tell me it's high frequency, it ain't.


----------



## cfmcmillan

hughesyn said:


> There's no way it can not be thermocompensated.
> 
> 20 spy difference between 14 and 35 degrees - there's no way normal quartz could achieve that.
> And don't tell me it's high frequency, it ain't.


Another piece of evidence that seems to point to thermocompensation is the shape of the curve - linear rather than quadratic. Over this temperature range, an uncompensated crystal would be expected to exhibit a quadratic rate vs. temperature - typically center at ~25°C. This watch shows linear behavior in this temperature region.


----------



## jthole

Today I have set mine as accurately as possible against the pool.ntp.org time source. I'm going to use the stopwatch method to measure deviations. Since I rotate between watches, my results will reflect my "real life" use, and not the optimal wearing pattern.

I've set an alarm for four weeks from now, to gather the first data. From there on, I will check every four weeks again.


----------



## gangrel

jthole said:


> Without more information about the E56.111 movement, it remains a guess, of course (but it is interesting indeed that Precidrive movements have '411' in the model number).


Don't read too much into that. That holds for the F0x line, but not for their older chronograph movements. It looks like they normalized their numbering, to a degree at least, with the F-range Trendlines, but the E64 is an older model.

F-series: F0s.abc
https://www.eta.ch/en/our-products/quartz-movements/trendline

s relates to size. abc is model. a == 1, standard quartz. a == 4, PreciDrive.
b: in what they're showing, 0 is no date, 6 is big date at 12, 1 is standard date at 3. NOT sure if this holds for some of the variants like GMT that were announced last year.

The numbering is even worse with, say, the G-series chronographs. They're completely confusing! Fashionline summary:
https://www.eta.ch/en/our-products/quartz-movements/fashionline


----------



## chris01

Well, I don't really care it it's a genuine PreciDrive or something else, provided that Longines gets mine working within their spec. However, you may care to refer to my earlier post, and its enclosed link. I hope that doesn't send the uninformed speculation into overdrive.

Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 27


----------



## gangrel

chris01 said:


> Well, I don't really care it it's a genuine PreciDrive or something else, provided that Longines gets mine working within their spec. However, you may care to refer to my earlier post, and its enclosed link. I hope that doesn't send the uninformed speculation into overdrive.
> 
> Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 27


Do we have reason to care? Does anyone know what PreciDrive and PowerDrive mean, on a technical level? Far as I know, they're trademarks.

I'll say this. They don't *want* PreciDrive or PowerDrive used here. They're obfuscating the movement deliberately. Longines almost always does this anyway, from what I've seen...the primary name for their movements is an Lxxx, but they usually also show the ETA model number when there is one. They don't need to do this until the movement shows up in a different Swatch brand, and they promote the air of exclusivity by leaving out any ETA-related indicator.

PreciDrive, in itself, also only asserts COSC-level daily accuracy...25 SPY. And it gives them a nice, trademarked term for that...without going to the expense of undergoing a formal certification...for marketing purposes. They may not want to use the PreciDrive approach; it might not be good enough. Or it might just be that they do a better job of checking key parts. The Seiko 9F82 is used in both 10 SPY and 5 SPY models in the current GS catalog, for example.

Push comes to shove, who cares about the label? It's the results, as chris notes.


----------



## jthole

gangrel said:


> Longines almost always does this anyway, from what I've seen...the primary name for their movements is an Lxxx, but they usually also show the ETA model number when there is one. They don't need to do this until the movement shows up in a different Swatch brand, and they promote the air of exclusivity by leaving out any ETA-related indicator.


Well ... they do indicate an ETA number (56.111 and 57.111) but without further information, that is meaningless indeed.

What they do say in the specs is "NTC" which probably is the same mechanism as used in the watches ETA labels as "Precidrive". But that only tells how they measure the temperature, and not much more.

Patent US20170176945A1 may be relevant in terms of the motorisation of the watch, with each hand driven by a separate motor, and for the "GPD" system: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20170176945A1/en

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7d/1a/05/ff35b2272dbe21/US20170176945A1.pdf


----------



## gaijin

jthole said:


> What they do say in the specs is "NTC" which probably is the same mechanism as used in the watches ETA labels as "Precidrive". But that only tells how they measure the temperature, and not much more.


Or ... *NTC* = *N*ot *T*hermal(Temperature) *C*ompensated?


----------



## jthole

Possible but unlikely. AFAIK it would mean Negative Temperature Compensation.


----------



## gangrel

I couldn't find the ETA movement designation in the promo literature, and I did try...but it's of course entirely possible I missed it.


----------



## jthole

gangrel said:


> I couldn't find the ETA movement designation in the promo literature, and I did try...but it's of course entirely possible I missed it.


Me neither, and it's absolutely not certain that the patent I posted is related to the L288.2 motor drive. But could be.


----------



## Dan_957

#


----------



## chris01

gangrel said:


> I couldn't find the ETA movement designation in the promo literature, and I did try...but it's of course entirely possible I missed it.


Since the two new movements are supposed to be exclusively for Longines for 2 years, there's no reason for ETA to publish anything about them. Nobody else can buy them (at least, that's the public position).


----------



## jthole

chris01 said:


> Since the two new movements are supposed to be exclusively for Longines* for 2 years* ...


Interesting! Did Longines or ETA specify the 2 years period? Or is that based on knowledge about existing Swatch / ETA policy?


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> Interesting! Did Longines or ETA specify the 2 years period? Or is that based on knowledge about existing Swatch / ETA policy?


The exclusivity ("at present") is mentioned by Walter at the start of his chat about the VHP (4:18):





I've read somewhere else about the 2 years, probably in one of the VHP press releases from early 2017.


----------



## jthole

chris01 said:


> I've read somewhere else about the 2 years, probably in one of the VHP press releases from early 2017.


Yes, I had heard about the exclusivity but not about the two years period.


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> Yes, I had heard about the exclusivity but not about the two years period.


What does "two years" really mean in the world of watches?


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> The exclusivity ("at present") is mentioned by Walter at the start of his chat about the VHP (4:18):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've read somewhere else about the 2 years, probably in one of the VHP press releases from early 2017.


It was mentioned here.


----------



## jthole

By the way, is this new, or just clever phrasing of a technology which was already applied to watches before? (Seiko maybe?)

"In an advantageous variant, *motor module 1 comprises at least one sensor 600, which can, in particular, form means for detecting the position of the gear trains, and in particular of its own gear train* 6"

I assume this describes the GPD system Longines features prominently in the communication about the VHP?


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> It was mentioned here.


That's where I read it, but nowhere else.


----------



## tmathes

Sometimes exclusivity is even longer. The Tissot T-Touch movement to my knowledge has never been used by anyone else except Tissot.


----------



## Pauel

tmathes said:


> Sometimes exclusivity is even longer. The Tissot T-Touch movement to my knowledge has never been used by anyone else except Tissot.


Well, looks like some Rado from the last Basel uses the very same movement as VHP. To be precise Rado Hyperchrome Light Series

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## chris01

Mad-Hollander said:


> Well, looks like some Rado from the last Basel uses the very same movement as VHP. To be precise Rado Hyperchrome Light Series
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


Interesting. Do you have a reference?


----------



## Pauel

chris01 said:


> Interesting. Do you have a reference?


There was some press release but I can't find the link. They were mentioned E57 caliber. This caliber uses 3-6-9 totalizer layout, not 2-6-10. And they said that there is five independent motors in this movement. And as I remember a perpetual calendar.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## jthole

Edit: link removed because it pointed to another forum, and I don't know if that's allowed.

Edit2: the forum post I pointed to was written by @Mad-Hollander so that kind of a circular reference anyway.

Apart from that, I have not found anything about a Rado E57 movement, or a recent quartz chronograph.


----------



## gangrel

Mad-Hollander said:


> Well, looks like some Rado from the last Basel uses the very same movement as VHP. To be precise Rado Hyperchrome Light Series
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk


The only model I can find that incorporates Hyperchrome and Light in any way, is an auto...the Hyperchrome Ultra Light.

Beyond that, I can find only one Hyperchrome quartz, a 45mm chronograph. And I see no info about the movement...which is a Rado habit that I do not care for.

https://www.rado.com/collections/rado-hyperchrome/hyperchrome-chronograph-0131202593215

NO detail on the movement whatsoever.



> Sometimes exclusivity is even longer. The Tissot T-Touch movement to my knowledge has never been used by anyone else except Tissot.


I think that says more about the movement. Like...maybe no one else wants it.


----------



## Pauel

gangrel said:


> The only model I can find that incorporates Hyperchrome and Light in any way, is an auto...the Hyperchrome Ultra Light.
> 
> Beyond that, I can find only one Hyperchrome quartz, a 45mm chronograph. And I see no info about the movement...which is a Rado habit that I do not care for.
> 
> https://www.rado.com/collections/rado-hyperchrome/hyperchrome-chronograph-0131202593215
> 
> NO detail on the movement whatsoever.
> 
> I think that says more about the movement. Like...maybe no one else wants it.


Not ultra light but Light Series









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## ronalddheld

We should try to stay on topic given this massive thread.


----------



## Pauel

ronalddheld said:


> We should try to stay on topic given this massive thread.


Agree. We were discussing on how unique the VHP's caliber is.

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## cfmcmillan

*GPS offset data over a ~5 day period during which the watch was worn*

The graph below shows data collected from my Longines VHP over a period during which I wore the watch and, when it was not being worn, measured the GPS offset in the "kludge oven" at 29.1±0.1°.









The blank periods are when I was wearing the watch. Over this entire period, including those when it was worn, the watch ran ~0.3 s/yr fast. If one assumes that the watch on my wrist is close to the temperature in the box, this is very consistent with the temperature dependent rate measurements shown earlier.

I have left the range of the ordinate relatively large to show that there are data points that parallel the shape of the main trace 10s of msec away. These may provide clues as to what's happening with the thermal compensation?

*Update that explains the 1 ms difference*

I went back and looked at my measurement of individual ticks. Pairs of ticks are not equal length - however, when taken together they are very close to 2 seconds. A short list of a few seconds looks as follows:


0.9995011.0005120.9994861.00050.9994981.0005180.9994821.000510.9994891.000516

When you look at the difference between short and long ticks, it is ~1 ms. What's happening is that sometimes the first pulse after the GPS signal is the short one, sometimes it's the long one. The difference is the 1 ms observed parallel bands on the graph.


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## Hans Moleman

cfmcmillan said:


> I have left the range of the ordinate relatively large to show that there are data points that parallel the shape of the main trace 10s of msec away. These may provide clues as to what's happening with the thermal compensation?


Could be the movement of the other hands. They may be scheduled a few ms before or after the movement of the seconds hand.

Maybe.


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## cfmcmillan

Hans Moleman said:


> Could be the movement of the other hands. They may be scheduled a few ms before or after the movement of the seconds hand.
> 
> Maybe.


Very reasonable idea - I wonder how I could test it? I can't think of a way to stop the second hand and keep the others moving.


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## jthole

I benchmarked my stopwatch measurements, and it looks like 0,1s is a safe accuracy limit. Maybe rounding to 0,05 but that's stretching it.

Anyway, the conclusion is that, after a week, I cannot measure any significant deviation from the pool.ntp.org time source yet. Probably it will take about four weeks until I can say anything meaningful.

My wearing pattern during the last six days; three days on the wrist, three days in the watch box.


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## Hans Moleman

cfmcmillan said:


> Very reasonable idea - I wonder how I could test it? I can't think of a way to stop the second hand and keep the others moving.


Try to see the pattern. The 10 second averaging does not help here.

Wasn't there an option where you can ask the MicroSet to ignore late/early pulses?


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## jthole

Someone stayed up at night ... with a cool video as result: 




(just to be clear, not my video and not my watch)


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## cfmcmillan

Hans Moleman said:


> Try to see the pattern. The 10 second averaging does not help here.
> 
> Wasn't there an option where you can ask the MicroSet to ignore late/early pulses?


I don't recall seeing an option like that, but I can go look at the manual. It certainly does lots of interesting things.

I went back through the manual for the MicroSet 3, the GPS module and the software. There's a blanking window that you can control for the acoustic sensor to turn down the gain between beats on a mechanical watch - I don't think that will help with the GPS offset. There's also a noise trimming function in the software - it replaces a spike that's off-scale with the mean of the record on either side. I can always do this with software later if I want to - it seems like a bad idea to throw away real data you collect - even if it is noisy. If you see something else, let me know.


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## jthole

First measurement point, using the "stopwatch method"; the watch has lost *no! gained* 0.1s in 10 days. So far, it seems to be within spec, but I need more measurement points over multiple weeks to say more.

As I have rounded it to the first digit, two weeks is really too short to say something specific. I also have not worn it for a few days, and my feeling (unproven yet) is that the watch runs slightly too slow off the wrist.

*Edit2: I should look at my data before posting ......*

Febr. 24 (10 measurements, 10 seconds intervals): time recorded on stopwatch 10.11 seconds
March 6 (10 measurements, 10 seconds intervals): time recorded on stopwatch 9.97 seconds

So over the past 10 days, the watch has gained 0.14s (rounded to 0.1 due to measuring accuracy). Of course, 10 days is too short to say anything meaningful (that remains true  ).

Apologies for the confusion ...


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## kapahoo

So finally I got one!
Measurements of time will obviously come later. 
The blue face shifts with the surrounding light in a nice way and the long seconds hand hits the markers remarkably well. Obviously the "5bar(50 meter)"-printing feels unnecessary and I guess the red stuff looks better on the whiteish face but that is nitpicking. 
I find the watch very comfortable. Always thought that butterfly clasps were one of the watch industries most stupid ideas but this one fits me relatively well. Not very good fine-adjustments possibilities though, let's see how I feel about the bracelet in the summer...
Other than that, as stated by many others, the watch is quite thick and heavy. That gives the feeling of a well built, solid thing but also... well... thick and heavy... or perhaps sporty!

More later.


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## NL-NO

Congrats with your blue VHP. Hope you like it as much as I do mine. And mine hasn’t lost a second since I’ve set it in beginning of December. Very impressed. I’ve been back a few times to have the bracelet re-sized. Finally found the right combo of links vs. 1/2 links. Not a perfect fit but it’s pretty close. I had the same issue with the HydroConquest. This thread needs more pics tho! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## jthole

New measurements:

Febr. 24 (10 measurements, 10 seconds intervals): time recorded on stopwatch 10.11 seconds

March 10 (10 measurements, 10 seconds intervals): time recorded on stopwatch 9.96 seconds

Extrapolated deviation based on these measurements is better than 5.2 spy. Again; not enough time has passed really to extrapolate to a full year.


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## watch-addict

kapahoo,

Also congrats from here. 

Mine blue dial VHP 41 mm has been on my wrist for almost 1 month now. I can almost agree with your remarks, but I don't find this watch thick and heavy. It's very comfortable and bracelet fits my wrist perfekt. No problems with butterfly claps. Got many compliments from people - all say that it's beautiful watch with a lot of style and class. So far it's not lost/gained one second.


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## jthole

NL-NO said:


> This thread needs more pics tho!


I'd say that the Longines forum is a great place to post VHP pics, because this watch seems virtually unknown over there.

Since this is the HAQ forum, I think most are more interested in measurements than in photos (unless they are of measurement setups  ).


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## cfmcmillan

*"Real World Measurement"*

Over the last ten days I have been on travel and have been wearing the VHP approximately 15 hours/day and had it on the stand by the bed for the remaining time. Since I made a good measurement of the offset from the GPS prior to leaving, I am now able to give an estimate of how the VHP behaves with a "normal" wear pattern. One can think of this measurement as a bit like a stopwatch measurement on steroids since the MicroSet can track the offset from the GPS at the microsecond level. The data are as follows:

19:28:56 1 Mar 2018 GPS Offset = 0.271756
17:59:09 11 Mar 2018 GPS Offset = 0.216070

This leads to a difference of 0.0557 over approximately 10.4 days. Thus, the watch is running fast by approximately 2 s/yr. While this is not a surprise given the earlier temperature dependent measurements, it is gratifying to see that with a normal wear pattern and reasonable house temperatures at night the system is not inconsistent with the specs.


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## kapahoo

watch-addict said:


> kapahoo,
> 
> Also congrats from here.
> 
> Mine blue dial VHP 41 mm has been on my wrist for almost 1 month now. I can almost agree with your remarks, but I don't find this watch thick and heavy. It's very comfortable and bracelet fits my wrist perfekt. No problems with butterfly claps. Got many compliments from people - all say that it's beautiful watch with a lot of style and class. So far it's not lost/gained one second.


Yes, I've also experienced a couple of compmliements already!  That's nice.
And yes, I agree that it is comfortable. I wear mine at night as well and the lume lasts to the morning sun.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kapahoo

A weird thing...
Two days ago, the watch showed exactly the same time as the Watchville app. Now the VHP is two seconds ahead.
Is the probable cause of that the app being unreliable or is it perhaps the VHP? I do not want to go down the swatchgroup service road again...


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## jthole

kapahoo said:


> A weird thing...
> Two days ago, the watch showed exactly the same time as the Watchville app. Now the VHP is two seconds ahead.


Two seconds!?

I would first check against a reliable time source. I personally use the "pool.ntp.org" time servers.

My procedure:
1) stop the NTP daemon on my machine
2) for a time sync
3) start the NTP daemon again

The local clock on my machine easily drifts half a second per day, so I resync before each measurement.


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## kapahoo

jthole said:


> Two seconds!?
> 
> I would first check against a reliable time source. I personally use the "pool.ntp.org" time servers.
> 
> My procedure:
> 1) stop the NTP daemon on my machine
> 2) for a time sync
> 3) start the NTP daemon again
> 
> The local clock on my machine easily drifts half a second per day, so I resync before each measurement.


Also, I did not wear the watch for one of the two days.
The watchville app syncs with... ehh... something so it should be allright, i guess....

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## jthole

Still a second per day sounds ridiculous.


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## cfmcmillan

jthole said:


> Still a second per day sounds ridiculous.


I agree with RonaldHeld, that's certainly not what I'm seeing with my VHP.

I'm not acquainted with the app you cite, but you can get phone apps that show GPS time. That might provide a useful crosscheck.

If you happen to be running a linux box (or a raspberry pi) somewhere, you can easily configure NTP to keep the system clock synchronized to within 10's of milliseconds. Of course, if you're really a time nut (I plead guilty to this charge) you can set up GPS receivers to provide a pulse-per-second signal to your linux boxes and then keep things sync'ed to ~10 microseconds or better. Of course, the logical question is "why?" Answer, "because I can"?


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## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> I agree with RonaldHeld, that's certainly not what I'm seeing with my VHP.
> 
> I'm not acquainted with the app you cite, but you can get phone apps that show GPS time. That might provide a useful crosscheck.
> 
> If you happen to be running a linux box (or a raspberry pi) somewhere, you can easily configure NTP to keep the system clock synchronized to within 10's of milliseconds. Of course, if you're really a time nut (I plead guilty to this charge) you can set up GPS receivers to provide a pulse-per-second signal to your linux boxes and then keep things sync'ed to ~10 microseconds or better. Of course, the logical question is "why?" Answer, "because I can"?


Not the cheapest by any means, but certainly a very simple to set up and easy to use option:
LeoNTP Networked Time NTP Server [NTP_Server] - 300.00GBP : Leo Bodnar, Simulator Electronics

GPS receiver provides an NTP server for your local network, a 1 PPS indicator, and the current date & time displayed on an OLED screen, within a millisecond or two of the PPS. All without any other boxes, just a GPS aerial stuck inside a window.

Why? Because I want to, and it satisfies my OCD (obsessive chronometric disorder).


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## DaveM

jthole said:


> Still a second per day sounds ridiculous.


I agree, my Grandfather-clock is better than that !
If you have not already done it :-
>Pull out the crown. After 1 minute all hands should go to 12 oclock
If the seconds-hand does not go to exactly 12 oclock there has been a shock (mechanical or magnetic) which has misplaced it.
There is automatic-correction at 3am every 3 days, so in no more than 3 days the fault should go away.
>Push the crown back in and re-check the time


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## watch-addict

kapahoo,

Just crosschecked my VHP with GPS time on my Samsung Galaxy S6 - still no gain/no loss.

Some picks of my watch.


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## jthole

watch-addict said:


> kapahoo,
> 
> Just crosschecked my VHP with GPS time on my Samsung Galaxy S6 - still no gain/no loss.


Are we talking seconds or sub-seconds here? What measuring interval? Any idea how that extrapolates to a full year?

I'm not wearing mine every day (actually only a few days per week) and I doubt whether mine will end below 5 seconds. It will be good to hear from someone who has it on the wrist daily!


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## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> Not the cheapest by any means, but certainly a very simple to set up and easy to use option:
> LeoNTP Networked Time NTP Server [NTP_Server] - 300.00GBP : Leo Bodnar, Simulator Electronics
> 
> GPS receiver provides an NTP server for your local network, a 1 PPS indicator, and the current date & time displayed on an OLED screen, within a millisecond or two of the PPS. All without any other boxes, just a GPS aerial stuck inside a window.
> 
> Why? Because I want to, and it satisfies my OCD (obsessive chronometric disorder).


My solution is the Timemachines 1000A (https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/) as well as the TM2000A that provide a GPS disciplined ovenized crystal that supplies PTP as well as NTP. It's satisfying that we mortals can have devices of this character.


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## jthole

I'm wearing the VHP again today. It has been in my watch box for almost a week now. The box is in our bedroom, so the box is a bit below room temperature most of the time (varying between 10C and 18C, I guess, depending on the circumstances). Not very scientific measurements 

Anyway, it looks like the watch is running slightly slower when worn frequently, and slightly faster when stored in a cooler environment (at the end of this month, I will have enough data for a first graph). On average, it looks like it will end up between 5 and 6 spy.


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## kapahoo

Thanks for all your answers, concerns, tips and worries! 

I guess the autocorrection thing put its magic spell, or perhaps the app resynced/refreshed or something (I did check with other sources though and they all gave the same difference un time).
Woke up this morning and the VHP is back on track (i e as good as the eye can see).

Now this makes me happy and a bit worried.
Happy that it works!
Worried that there is something wrong still. Why off with two seconds all of a sudden? I didn’t do anything out of the ordinary, drop it or anything like that. Can the minute and/or hour hands also just pop out of sync with the watches actual timekeeping? Now that could actually cause the miss of a train departure, being late to a meeting or similar.

Well, I guess time will tell 




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## jthole

The watch aligns the hands with the internal time each night at 3am, so that can explain why it is now on track again. I have no explanation for the 2 seconds difference.


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## DaveM

jthole said:


> The watch aligns the hands with the internal time each night at 3am, so that can explain why it is now on track again. I have no explanation for the 2 seconds difference.


It all ties in with a slight (2 seconds) position-loss on the seconds hand.
It also ties in with all of the stuff in Longines sales-literature about GPD and position-reset. I think that they found that the separate, reversible second-hand drive was easily disturbed.

But to be fair
> We have only seen it happen on seconds hand. Minutes/hours motor has bigger gear-ratio and probably much more robust
> Only one or two seconds
> Put right at the next calibrate
> I just tried to disturb my watch by very vigorous shaking & it would not go wrong

I cannot see any real-world situation where one or 2 seconds for a day (or 3 days, not sure) is a problem.
And it is good that the automatic re-calibrate (GPD) feature is included.


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> Are we talking seconds or sub-seconds here? What measuring interval? Any idea how that extrapolates to a full year?
> 
> I'm not wearing mine every day (actually only a few days per week) and I doubt whether mine will end below 5 seconds. It will be good to hear from someone who has it on the wrist daily!


I ran a 30-day test, 15 consecutive days worn 14 hours daily, and 15 days unworn at ambient temperature. Worn was a steady +3.1 SPY, unworn +7.9 SPY. So just to achieve +5 SPY I'd have to wear it 4 to 5 days each week. Damn all use to me as I have other watches to wear. It's going back to Longines, hoping they can and will slow it a bit.

edit: And regarding the large changes reported, I've seen nothing like this, with daily timing.


----------



## DaveM

chris01 said:


> Damn all use to me as I have other watches to wear. It's going back to Longines, hoping they can and will slow it a bit.
> 
> I cannot understand why 7.9 as against 5 seconds = Damn all use.
> > 1 adjust per year and never more than 10s in error will make me happy.
> > I will let them have a 'benefit of the doubt' factor of 2


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## ronalddheld

Anyone not obsessed by accuracy may not feel comfortable here.


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## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> I ran a 30-day test, 15 consecutive days worn 14 hours daily, and 15 days unworn at ambient temperature. Worn was a steady +3.1 SPY, unworn +7.9 SPY. So just to achieve +5 SPY I'd have to wear it 4 to 5 days each week.
> .


It's encouraging that we're seeing similar behaviors between at least two of the watches when they are measured carefully.


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## jthole

chris01 said:


> I ran a 30-day test, 15 consecutive days worn 14 hours daily, and 15 days unworn at ambient temperature. Worn was a steady +3.1 SPY, unworn +7.9 SPY. So just to achieve +5 SPY I'd have to wear it 4 to 5 days each week. Damn all use to me as I have other watches to wear. It's going back to Longines, hoping they can and will slow it a bit.
> 
> edit: And regarding the large changes reported, I've seen nothing like this, with daily timing.


I wonder what you will end up with after it's returned from Longines.

Mine is on my wrist two days per week on average, and I currently estimate that it's going to be close to +6 SPY. I also observe that it runs faster when off the wrist, but I don't have the accurate equipment you have.


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## jthole

To be fair to Longines; it looks like their claim is valid, provided that the user wears the watch most of the days.

And really; how many buyers are going to check after 12 months?


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## chris01

DaveM said:


> chris01 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Damn all use to me as I have other watches to wear. It's going back to Longines, hoping they can and will slow it a bit.
> 
> I cannot understand why 7.9 as against 5 seconds = Damn all use.
> > 1 adjust per year and never more than 10s in error will make me happy.
> > I will let them have a 'benefit of the doubt' factor of 2
> 
> 
> 
> Well good luck to you. I know what I expect and can achieve from my watches, and that usually makes me happy. While we put up with cars that are advertised as doing 60 MPG and then we have to tolerate 35, that doesn't make over-inflated claims by manufacturers acceptable.
Click to expand...


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> To be fair to Longines; it looks like their claim is valid, provided that the user wears the watch most of the days.
> 
> And really; how many buyers are going to check after 12 months?


That's presumably what Longines are relying on. But, unlike Certina for example, they make no stipulation anywhere about wearing pattern. Therefore they can be criticised if their watch fails to perform under any reasonable conditions, including unworn in normal domestic ambient temperatures.


----------



## jthole

DaveM said:


> > I will let them have a 'benefit of the doubt' factor of 2


Factor two!?

I agree with Chris that a claim is a claim.

If it turns out to be 6 SPY, I am not going to complain. But if it's going to be 10 SPY, then I am surely disappointed. It's not like I store the watch in the freezer ...


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> Factor two!?
> 
> I agree with Chris that a claim is a claim.
> 
> If it turns out to be 6 SPY, I am not going to complain. But if it's going to be 10 SPY, then I am surely disappointed. It's not like I store the watch in the freezer ...


What really p---es me off is that this is my only "5 SPY" watch; all my others are "10 SPY". Unfortunately, in reality it is my least accurate HAQ. If Longines had advertised it as a 10 or had specified everyday wear, I wouldn't have bothered with it.


----------



## DaveM

[QUOTE
Well good luck to you. I know what I expect and can achieve from my watches, and that usually makes me happy. While we put up with cars that are advertised as doing 60 MPG and then we have to tolerate 35, that doesn't make over-inflated claims by manufacturers acceptable.
QUOTE]

OK you are right, I am being too kind to Longines. Just 3 points
1) I am amazed that Longines did not put any 'weaselly words' in their declaration of 5s per year
2) Since the watch only indicates time to the nearest second it is unfair to condemn it (2.9 spy out of spec) on a 15-day test. 
3) Your watch gained off-the wrist, which normally means colder. The tests of McMillan show about 1s/year/C slower when colder

As regards 3) perhaps I have I got my signs wrong, but thinking about it McMillan results were very convincing, and with 1s/year/C temperature-drift 5s per-year off the wrist even in the 20C environment of my centrally heated house is very unlikely.


----------



## Miguel

Hi,

After 44 days, my VHP is doing 2.19 spy, with the last 4 week, so the last 28 days, being completely unworn at an average room temperature of 20 degrees Celsius. So it is behaving as claimed.

And I also agree: a claim is a claim. Citizen specifies, for example, that the accuracy of their watches is obtained if they are worn 12 hours a day (at least on my Exceed manual). Longines does not mention such a requirement in their user manual, so I would expect that 5 spy can be achieved, in a reasonable range of temperatures of course, and if not, I would simply consider it defective.

Unless the term "typically" in the guide means "loosely around that accuracy"...  

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## cfmcmillan

DaveM said:


> [QUOTE
> As regards 3) perhaps I have I got my signs wrong, but thinking about it McMillan results were very convincing, and with 1s/year/C temperature-drift 5s per-year off the wrist even in the 20C environment of my centrally heated house is very unlikely.


You got the sign right. In my system of measurement, a negative slope means the watch is running fast. I know this seems backwards, but having now posted many measurements with this sign convention, I'd probably better stick with it. The reason for the sign convention is that the time between the watch tick and the GPS PPS is _decreasing_ for a tick that is later than the GPS signal - hence the watch is running fast relative to the GPS time.

For the VHP, the watch runs faster the colder it is at about 1 s/yr/°C as you rightly said. On my watch the temperature at which it neither gains nor loses is between 29 and 30°C.


----------



## chris01

DaveM said:


> [QUOTE
> Well good luck to you. I know what I expect and can achieve from my watches, and that usually makes me happy. While we put up with cars that are advertised as doing 60 MPG and then we have to tolerate 35, that doesn't make over-inflated claims by manufacturers acceptable.
> QUOTE]
> 
> OK you are right, I am being too kind to Longines. Just 3 points
> 1) I am amazed that Longines did not put any 'weaselly words' in their declaration of 5s per year
> 2) Since the watch only indicates time to the nearest second it is unfair to condemn it (2.9 spy out of spec) on a 15-day test.
> 3) Your watch gained off-the wrist, which normally means colder. The tests of McMillan show about 1s/year/C slower when colder
> 
> As regards 3) perhaps I have I got my signs wrong, but thinking about it McMillan results were very convincing, and with 1s/year/C temperature-drift 5s per-year off the wrist even in the 20C environment of my centrally heated house is very unlikely.


I fully agree with you on points 1 and 3 (except for cfm's correction - cold = negative = fast). However, I don't think that 2 is a valid comment, and I'll explain how I work, so you can possibly reconsider.

My timing reference is a LeoNTP GPS clock and NTP server. As well as displaying the current time, it has a 1PPS indicator that is accurate to one microsecond or better. I have another independent GPS clock that consistently flashes its 1PPS at the same moment, as shown by video.

My measuring technique over fairly short periods is to video the watch and the reference together, at 200 fps, giving a frame spacing of 5 mS. So, assuming the watch is slightly fast, I step through the frames until the second hand starts to move, then I count the number of frames until the 1PPS light illuminates. Divided by 200, this gives the lead time in seconds, with a resolution of +/-5 mS. Note that I have checked the camera's frame rate and found that it's consistently 199 to 201 frames between 1PPS pulses.

Assuming a sort of worst case, with consecutive timings being out in the 'wrong' direction, this would give an error of 10 mS. For one day's timing, multiply by 365 to give an error of 3.65 SPY in the calculated rate. As the timing period increases, the actual error doesn't, and over 15 days the annual rate error is now 10 ms x 365 / 15 = 0.24 SPY.

For the pedantic statisticians out there, I know that's not a very precise evaluation of the error, but it's good enough in this context. The further check is to plot the annual rate on a daily basis, and after a few days the graph settles to a fairly straight line, usually within +/-0.1 SPY.


----------



## Hans Moleman

DaveM said:


> ... Since the watch only indicates time to the nearest second ...


How very true.

If I make a picture of my watch, I can't tell from that picture how long the second hand sat on that marker.
The time that picture was taken was between 11:02:20 and 11:20:21. Nothing more precise.

If I look at the watch for a period, I can tell to the nanosecond at what time the watch thought the new second started. The time when the second hand started to move was 11:20:34:000. To the nanosecond.

That's why people use the video method. Only use frames where things change.

The difference between accuracy and resolution.

If a clock only had an hour hand that jumped from marker to marker, then that clock can still be very accurate.


----------



## DaveM

Hans Moleman said:


> How very true.
> 
> If I make a picture of my watch, I can't tell from that picture how long the second hand sat on that marker.
> The time that picture was taken was between 11:02:20 and 11:20:21. Nothing more precise.
> 
> If I look at the watch for a period, I can tell to the nanosecond at what time the watch thought the new second started. The time when the second hand started to move was 11:20:34:000. To the nanosecond.
> 
> That's why people use the video method. Only use frames where things change.
> 
> The difference between accuracy and resolution.
> 
> If a clock only had an hour hand that jumped from marker to marker, then that clock can still be very accurate.


I agree that you can accurately measure to sub-second accuracy using camera-methods (but my camera-methods run out of steam below about 100 microseconds (Nanoseconds -- no way unless you can afford very expensive cameras). However if you take it too far (too short a sample) the 'analogue' world of moving the seconds-hand can alias the spy measurement
> Inhibition
> Slight backlash delaying the start of hand-move
> Perhaps even subtle defects in the measuring technique.

So my point is that if you are going to get into an argument with Longines about how accurate the watch is the best approach is to measure accuracy over a long enough time to exclude sub-second measurement arguments.

Thanks to cfmcmillan for putting me right on signs. So it looks pretty convincing that Longines cannot meet 5spy over a realistic temperature-range.
I guess that this means that the temperaure-drift varies between xtals and they use a 'median' compensation rather than one measured for each xtal.

So a fair (tough) spec could be :=
within 5spy or 1 second (which ever greater)
warranty for 3 years (renew if Longines-approved battery change)
15C to 30C

If Longines read this thread I think that they will soon update manual to make 5spy more 'ify'


----------



## DaveM

chris01 said:


> I fully agree with you on points 1 and 3 (except for cfm's correction - cold = negative = fast). However, I don't think that 2 is a valid comment, and I'll explain how I work, so you can possibly reconsider.
> 
> My timing reference is a LeoNTP GPS clock and NTP server. As well as displaying the current time, it has a 1PPS indicator that is accurate to one microsecond or better. I have another independent GPS clock that consistently flashes its 1PPS at the same moment, as shown by video.
> 
> My measuring technique over fairly short periods is to video the watch and the reference together, at 200 fps, giving a frame spacing of 5 mS. So, assuming the watch is slightly fast, I step through the frames until the second hand starts to move, then I count the number of frames until the 1PPS light illuminates. Divided by 200, this gives the lead time in seconds, with a resolution of +/-5 mS. Note that I have checked the camera's frame rate and found that it's consistently 199 to 201 frames between 1PPS pulses.
> 
> Assuming a sort of worst case, with consecutive timings being out in the 'wrong' direction, this would give an error of 10 mS. For one day's timing, multiply by 365 to give an error of 3.65 SPY in the calculated rate. As the timing period increases, the actual error doesn't, and over 15 days the annual rate error is now 10 ms x 365 / 15 = 0.24 SPY.
> 
> For the pedantic statisticians out there, I know that's not a very precise evaluation of the error, but it's good enough in this context. The further check is to plot the annual rate on a daily basis, and after a few days the graph settles to a fairly straight line, usually within +/-0.1 SPY.


Cannot fault the argument, and the results are not 100 miles from cfmcmillan regulate at 29C with drift of 1spy/C


----------



## chris01

DaveM said:


> I agree that you can accurately measure to sub-second accuracy using camera-methods (but my camera-methods run out of steam below about 100 microseconds (Nanoseconds -- no way unless you can afford very expensive cameras). However if you take it too far (too short a sample) the 'analogue' world of moving the seconds-hand can alias the spy measurement
> > Inhibition
> > Slight backlash delaying the start of hand-move
> > Perhaps even subtle defects in the measuring technique.
> 
> So my point is that if you are going to get into an argument with Longines about how accurate the watch is the best approach is to measure accuracy over a long enough time to exclude sub-second measurement arguments.
> 
> Thanks to cfmcmillan for putting me right on signs. So it looks pretty convincing that Longines cannot meet 5spy over a realistic temperature-range.
> I guess that this means that the temperaure-drift varies between xtals and they use a 'median' compensation rather than one measured for each xtal.
> 
> So a fair (tough) spec could be :=
> within 5spy or 1 second (which ever greater)
> warranty for 3 years (renew if Longines-approved battery change)
> 15C to 30C
> 
> If Longines read this thread I think that they will soon update manual to make 5spy more 'ify'


What is very noticeable with (relatively) high-speed video is just how much is going on each time the second hand ticks. I always time from the start of the 'tick' as you usually see a very small displacement from the resting position. The next frame or two is blurred as the hand is moving fast, and then it overshoots the next marker and bounces back. The overall time from position 1 at rest to position 2 at rest is around 20 to 30 mS.

Measuring from the start is pretty reliable I think, while waiting for the end of the process is much less determinate.

I'll add my 30-day graph and hope this will illustrate the points I made earlier.

The real problem we have always had is that there isn't a 'perfect' TC so we are still subject to issues of wearing pattern and ambient temperature. What I see with this watch is not greatly different from my other HAQs, while I had hoped that the technology would have significantly improved over the last 30+ years.


----------



## hughesyn

chris01 said:


> View attachment 12977763


Good chart.

So it lives up to their 5 spy claim when worn, but not unworn.

As already said, the mistake on Longines part was not putting a statement in the manual about being worn.

I think Longines are within their rights to say that the 5 seconds is over the course of a year.
For example, it might be 7 seconds out at some point, but then come back to within 5 seconds later on.


----------



## cfmcmillan

*Dialog between Longines engineering and marketing *(with apologies to Galileo)

*Engineering:* "We've come up with this great new technology that linearizes the dependence of watch rate on temperature and leads to a very _precise_ watch over a wide range of temperatures and wearing patterns."

*Marketing:* "Cool. What do the specs look like?"

*Engineering: *(Going to the white board) "Let's define a few terms. Let "a" be the coefficient of temperature dependence measured in [s/yr/°C] (for this watch, it's really low say about 1 s/yr/°C), let R be the actual rate of the watch [s/yr] and R0 [s/yr] be the true rate of time. Define T0 be the temperature at which R=R0. Now, the average rate of the watch is given by






​
where "t" is obviously time. Now the precision "P" of the watch measured over a year is given








​
but since the first integral is just Rbar*Δt this means P < 5 s/yr is pretty doable given that the rate of the the watch is stable, the integration time is a year and we assume that the annual temperature and wear cycle are about the same each year. It's just not very sensitive to the vagaries of wear and temperature. This is a spec we can meet and are pretty proud of."

*Marketing:* "Wow, that sounds like a pretty _accurate _watch."

*Engineering:* "Yes it is. However that's a different spec. That spec would would look something like this








​
Where "A" is the accuracy. In order to keep this to 5 s/yr, you'd need to keep the time average of the temperature difference down to something less than 5°C. "

*Marketing:* "Those look about the same to me but I'll admit right up front this is all Greek to me anyway. What does that last bit about 'time average of the temperature difference' really mean anyway?"
*
Engineering: *"Well, there are a bunch of ways you could do this. Say someone wore the watch 24/7, that would probably keep the watch running at better than 5s/yr accuracy. Say they wore the watch every day and put it on the table at night, as long as their house wasn't a meat locker or a sweat shop, that would also probably meet the 5s/yr spec as well. There are a bunch of ways this could work."

*Marketing: "*Listen, all this integral crap isn't going to look very good in the advertising. You say "precision" and "accuracy" aren't the same thing, fine! How about we call this thing the "Very High Precision" in honor of old watch. It will look good in the advertising."

*Engineering:* "Great and it has the advantage of being true as well."

*Marketing: *"The consumer won't know the difference anyway."

*Engineering:* "Pretty cynical!"

*Conversation between marketing and tech writing a year later:* "Engineering said we needed to be sure to include the word 'precision' somewhere in the manual, make sure it shows up."

*What comes out of tech writing* (per the Longines Manual for the VHP)

On the first page: "This movement is renowned for its high degree of precision for an analog watch ( ± 5 sec / year)"

On the second page: "The watch ensures the display of hours, minutes and seconds to an accuracy of ± 5 sec / year. This extreme accuracy is achieved through an ultra-precise quartz combined with time display correction in the event of a disturbance."

*The outcome:* Engineering runs screaming from the room. Legal doesn't pay any attention.

(I beg your forbearance for the hand written equations and bad penmanship - remember, I was getting these off the white board. It was quicker than figuring out how to get TeX input into HTML.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> *Dialog between Longines engineering and marketing *(with apologies to Galileo)
> 
> *The outcome:* Engineering runs screaming from the room. Legal doesn't pay any attention.


Good luck explaining that to Walter von Känel 

Here's another crazy idea from Engineering, with no equations required:

"See these little contacts inside, marked + and - ? Well, if you find your watch runs at, say +12, because you live in Greenland, or you don't wear it very often, then just get a friendly watchmaker to take a wire from the battery and tap it on a contact, once for each 4 seconds you want to slow the watch. Three taps will give you +/-0 SPY."

Never catch on, would it?


----------



## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> Good luck explaining that to Walter von Känel


I notice he has a sales background - maybe that would be close enough to marketing for the dialog to work?


----------



## Watchman Dan

I confess I have always wanted to try out a Longines, To see how it compares in between a Tissot and Omega. The new conquest VHP is a quartz watch with some interesting features, but I can't bring myself to spend $840 (best online price I found) on a quartz without COSC, especially when the Longines Conquest Automatic is about the same price ($825) 

If I was going to get a Longines, I would probably just go for the older, regular Conquest Quartz, as I like the slightly sportier Rolexy styling, better water resistance (300m vs. 50m !!) and lower price ($540 online). It strikes me as a practical everyday quartz tool watch with enough of an upscale name to set it apart from the base brands.

I already own a Certina DS Action that has the accurate Thermoquartz movement and is COSC that can be had online for only $300. I think I read that a Quartz MUST be thermocompensated to be COSC. It has been running about + .75 sec/mo. So +8 sec./yr. is good enough for me. Being thermocompensated, it seems to run the same whether on or off the wrist. Both watches are both kinda similar, being Swatch brands and tool watchy. The Certina reminds me a lot of an Omega Aqua Terra Quartz ($1800) or to a lesser extent, the Tudor North Face.


----------



## watch-addict

I'm scratching my head about this accuracy.

My VHP watch is on and off my wrist during the week, worn outside in the 0 degrees C and inside at 20-22 degrees C. No difference recorded.

I don't have so specified measure equipment as apparently some of the posters have, but comparing to radio controlled watch and GPS time, I haven't noticed any gain/loss. 

For me, it's shooting sparrows with cannons. If you want to find a fault, you will always find it.

For me, to have an excellently looking watch with minimal loss/gain of seconds per year, it's great pleasure. Even if somebody put a highly technical diagram with this and that, I don't care.

I acknowledge however that some posters are crazy with accuracy down to 0.0005 seconds and temperature difference from 0 to 35 degrees C.


----------



## Tom-HK

watch-addict said:


> I acknowledge however that some posters are crazy with accuracy down to 0.0005 seconds and temperature difference from 0 to 35 degrees C.


Yeah, they should make a special forum for those guys...


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> Yeah, they should make a special forum for those guys...


But wouldn't that just annoy the rest of us? Elitist HAQ snobs with their weird obsessions. We've had a lot of rain recently and my clepsydra is good enough accuracy for anyone.


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator wonders about asking to stay on topic? I should ask what Time-nuts think of us HAQs...


----------



## GMT-man

watch-addict said:


> worn outside in the 0 degrees C and inside at 20-22 degrees C. No difference recorded.


It is not the ambient temperature of the watch that matters, it is the temperature of the watch itself. I have an old Suunto Observer sports watch which has a thermo compensated barometer/altimeter, and also displays the temperature of the compensation unit. That is naturally the temparature of the watch, not air around the watch (even though some users seem to expect the watch to be miraculously able to measure that while on the wrist). As I recall the temperature has always been between 29 and 32 C no matter where I am, and if I want to measure the ambient temperature I have to hang the watch on a tree branch or something for 20 minutes to get an accurate reading.

My VHP was running at about +2.5 SPY when I was wearing it, now that it has been mostly in a drawer (at 18-20C) it seems to be approaching +5 SPY. I do not feel cheated, but I do understand that Longines should have added "+-5 SPY when worn daily" just to cover their behind from nitpicekers.


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## ppaulusz

GMT-man said:


> ...My VHP was running at about +2.5 SPY when I was wearing it, now that it has been mostly in a drawer (at 18-20C) it seems to be approaching +5 SPY. I do not feel cheated, but I do understand that Longines should have added "+-5 SPY when worn daily" just to cover their behind from nitpicekers.


I'd like to make a small but rather important point here in the defense of watch manufacturers (not only Longines/ETA but all of them):
Every watch is made foremost for wear on the wrist (this is the environment it is designed for optimum performance) as every wall clock is made for placement in a rather non-changing physical environment (for optimum performance)!


----------



## cfmcmillan

ppaulusz said:


> I'd like to make a small but rather important point here in the defense of watch manufacturers (not only Longines/ETA but all of them):
> Every watch is made foremost for wear on the wrist (this is the environment it is designed for optimum performance) as every wall clock is made for placement in a rather non-changing physical environment (for optimum performance)!


This may be sacrilege, but for those of us who don't wear one watch all the time, it's pretty easy (and inexpensive) to simulate the temperature conditions on the wrist. As I've shown in earlier posts, a simple Styrofoam box, a 7 watt light bulb and a controller that costs about $30 US can hold the temperature at 29-30°C very nicely and when that is done, the VHP (and I suspect many other watches as well) keeps time amazingly well. I admit that I'm OCD (Obsessive Chronmetric Disorder as defined previously) enough that I've _thought_ about doing this; I haven't actually done it. Why not? First, I haven't been able to figure out a convenient place to put the box - it's ugly and I'm pretty sure my wife would object. Second, I suspect that if I put a watch (or watches) in such a box it would be "out of sight, out of mind" and I would fail to wear watches that I enjoy as often as I might. Hence I keep the watches in a box where I can see them when I'm making a choice of which one to put on in the morning and consciously accept a bit lower long-term accuracy than I know would be possible if I wore the watch every day or stored it in a different way. At some point my OCD may get the upper hand and I'll resort to putting watches in an ugly box, I may devise a box that's acceptable or, who knows, maybe someone will manufacture a box that's attractive that we can just buy - too bad humidors are targeted at a lower temperature range, they are the right idea. In any case, there is a simple (albeit inelegant) solution to the problem of not wearing the same watch every day.

While writing this post, I had a crazy idea. What about putting an electric heating pad under the watch box, putting the sensor for the temperature controller in the box and using that as a simple way to get the temperature about right? Who knows, it might work. I think I'll give it a try.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> This may be sacrilege, but for those of us who don't wear one watch all the time, it's pretty easy (and inexpensive) to simulate the temperature conditions on the wrist. As I've shown in earlier posts, a simple Styrofoam box, a 7 watt light bulb and a controller that costs about $30 US can hold the temperature at 29-30°C very nicely and when that is done, the VHP (and I suspect many other watches as well) keeps time amazingly well. I admit that I'm OCD (Obsessive Chronmetric Disorder as defined previously) enough that I've _thought_ about doing this; I haven't actually done it. Why not? First, I haven't been able to figure out a convenient place to put the box - it's ugly and I'm pretty sure my wife would object. Second, I suspect that if I put a watch (or watches) in such a box it would be "out of sight, out of mind" and I would fail to wear watches that I enjoy as often as I might. Hence I keep the watches in a box where I can see them when I'm making a choice of which one to put on in the morning and consciously accept a bit lower long-term accuracy than I know would be possible if I wore the watch every day or stored it in a different way. At some point my OCD may get the upper hand and I'll resort to putting watches in an ugly box, I may devise a box that's acceptable or, who knows, maybe someone will manufacture a box that's attractive that we can just buy - too bad humidors are targeted at a lower temperature range, they are the right idea. In any case, there is a simple (albeit inelegant) solution to the problem of not wearing the same watch every day.
> 
> While writing this post, I had a crazy idea. What about putting an electric heating pad under the watch box, putting the sensor for the temperature controller in the box and using that as a simple way to get the temperature about right? Who knows, it might work. I think I'll give it a try.


Yes, a perfectly sound idea, if a bit cumbersome. But consider this: just about any quartz watch, if stored at its optimum temperature, can perform about as well as the best TC watch. So why bother with buying an expensive HAQ if all you're doing is compensating (!) for the inadequacies of the technology? Wear it one day then pop it in its little oven to correct it enough for its next outing. While it's not exactly approved of here, using an RC or GPS watch, especially if it has a decent uncorrected rate between daily syncs (which is not always the case), is much simpler.


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## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> Yes, a perfectly sound idea, if a bit cumbersome. But consider this: just about any quartz watch, if stored at its optimum temperature, can perform about as well as the best TC watch. So why bother with buying an expensive HAQ if all you're doing is compensating (!) for the inadequacies of the technology? Wear it one day then pop it in its little oven to correct it enough for its next outing. While it's not exactly approved of here, using an RC or GPS watch, especially if it has a decent uncorrected rate between daily syncs (which is not always the case), is much simpler.


Will have to ruminate over this post.


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## Hans Moleman

"Thermo compensation" means running at a rate independent of temperature.

That does not gel with "wearing pattern". 

Those two words are contradicting each other.

And that's why a Longines isn't very happy to use the word "wearing pattern". It simply flies in the face with the of the rest of the PR.

So lets get honest here please. Measure a rate at a temperature. Yes, temperature (still) effects the rate. A lot less than without TC fortunately, but still.

A COSC declaration always struck me as the more trustworthy. Simply because they do mention temperature. Sorry to say, but it still needs to be mentioned.


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## cfmcmillan

It looks like the heating pad concept works reasonably well for keeping the watch box at between 29-30°C. However, it doesn't work by putting the heating pad under the box - too much heat loss. Rather, I have opened the box and set it loosely over the top - not touching the watches. Here's a photo:






​
The heating pad required a little modification since it had an automatic shut-off after an hour. I removed the controller that came with the heating pad, measured the resistance of the heating element (about 375 ohms) and confirmed that the current was only about 1/3 Amp. (The control box will handle 10 Amps). I've just laid the sensor in the box at about the level of the watches and let the thermal controller turn the heating pad on and off. The temperature as measured by the temperature logger is shown below:







​Because of the substantial thermal mass of the heating pad, the temperature overshoots when the heating pad is turned off by the controller. However, as you can see, even with the overshoot the temperature is staying comfortably between 29-30°C and is approximately sinusoidal. This should hold the watches fairly close to body temperature. I'll see about making some VHP measurements over time to see whether this is keeping it about right.


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## GMT-man

Storing the watch box on the top of your refrigerator might achieve the same...

Anyway, this is quite interesting and I have (again) contributed to this thread, but thinking even for a second what all this fuss is actually about, well...


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## cfmcmillan

GMT-man said:


> Storing the watch box on the top of your refrigerator might achieve the same...
> 
> Anyway, this is quite interesting and I have (again) contributed to this thread, but thinking even for a second what all this fuss is actually about, well...


Yes, there are several other interesting options - the stereo amplifier if it's left turned on, a computer ... There are lots of sources of just a little bit of heat.


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## GMT-man

cfmcmillan said:


> Yes, there are several other interesting options - the stereo amplifier if it's left turned on, a computer ... There are lots of sources of just a little bit of heat.


As long as it is far enough from strong magnetic fields.


----------



## jthole

I see a market for heated watch boxes


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## chris01

jthole said:


> I see a market for heated watch boxes


I see a market for properly thermo-independent watches, instead of Heath-Robinson fixes.


----------



## jthole

chris01 said:


> I see a market for properly thermo-independent watches, instead of Heath-Robinson fixes.


Touché ;-)


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> I see a market for properly thermo-independent watches, instead of Heath-Robinson fixes.


I'd settle for better production trimming of what they have right now.


----------



## Watchman Dan

OK I bought the *regular* quartz Conquest at a price I couldn't resist, and I do like it! Even though it is not the VHP movement, I want to let people know that the regular model has been been upgraded with the hi-end E6.4111 Preci-drive movement with thermo compensation. I have a lower level series F Preci-drive in my Certina COSC that is getting -.75 sec./mo. So I expect this Longines to also be <10spy -- almost as accurate as the VHP!

The cases are identical between the auto and the quartz, so there's the same quality between them! Only way to tell is the tiny "Quartz" on the dial and of course, the seconds hand stepping. I confirmed that the case is in fact, made in Switzerland, by opening the caseback and finding it stamped inside. This watch disproves the theory that quartz watches are just cheap beaters and there aren't any high quality ones out there. There are times when I like the set and forget convenience of Quartz and not having to mess with winding, and I think much of Longines market does as well. Got the 43mm model with a non tapered 22mm band, and it has a lot of presence. It's big (& heavy), but not quite too big for me. But nice to see they also offer a 41mm. The fit & finish is about the same any of the other Swatch group brands, which is excellent. But the immpeccible design and pedigree set it apart and make it look more expensive, almost Omega-like in Quality, and Rolex-like in styling. You can tell they did their homework. And like the classic Rolex style, the Conquest will certainly appeal to a wide range of tastes. The blue face is a deeper shade than the photos, with a slighty indigo tint, making it look more sophisticated than the brighter blue of the Rolex. You can no longer even get a quartz Rolex, and Omega only does a few men's watches in Quartz, the closest being the Aqua Terra. But that one will set you back around $2,000 discounted, with a less accurate movement, half the water resistance, and small 38.5mm size, I really don't see enough justification to spend that much more than the Longines.

All in all, I'd say the Conquest is just about the best everyday, all around quartz watch you can wear in the $500 to $1,000 category. You certainly can't go wrong with it!


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## jthole

I saw two regular quartz Conquest watches. In both ones, the seconds hand missed most of the indices. That would drive me crazy.


----------



## cfmcmillan

chris01 said:


> I see a market for properly thermo-independent watches, instead of Heath-Robinson fixes.


I freely agree to the Heath-Robinson/Rube Goldberg nature of the fix. Nevertheless, measured over a ~5 day period, gently warmed by the heating pad, the watch ran ~1.5 s/yr slow when the temperature logger read temperatures between 29-30°C. This probably means the watch is a little warmer than the temperature logger. Like others, I'd prefer less dependence on temperature. On the other hand, I'm impressed with how well they have done and am willing to cut them a little slack since they can't predict what my wearing pattern will be (for that matter, neither can I). While not directly germane to this thread, I will point out that the MorgenWerk attempts to correct for the average temperature and wearing pattern that it's exposed to. It does what it sets out to do very well.

I'll be interested to see the behavior of chris01's watch when it comes back from Longines.


----------



## chris01

cfmcmillan said:


> I freely agree to the Heath-Robinson/Rube Goldberg nature of the fix. Nevertheless, measured over a ~5 day period, gently warmed by the heating pad, the watch ran ~1.5 s/yr slow when the temperature logger read temperatures between 29-30°C. This probably means the watch is a little warmer than the temperature logger. Like others, I'd prefer less dependence on temperature. On the other hand, I'm impressed with how well they have done and am willing to cut them a little slack since they can't predict what my wearing pattern will be (for that matter, neither can I). While not directly germane to this thread, I will point out that the MorgenWerk attempts to correct for the average temperature and wearing pattern that it's exposed to. It does what it sets out to do very well.
> 
> I'll be interested to see the behavior of chris01's watch when it comes back from Longines.


I do think a more interesting experiment would be to take any old quartz watch, measure its rate v temperature, then see if you can get 1 SPY with it. Rather more of an achievement than forcing a 5 SPY VHP to do what it's supposed to.

I have a bad feeling about Longines service, and am expecting no good news; either they'll refuse to do what's asked of them, or they will just do their normal setup that only works for a full-time wearer.

My lack of enthusiasm is aggravated by my ongoing experience with my wife's (old) VHP. After running happily at +5 SPY (my least accurate VHP of 2017), it suddenly started losing 2 SPD (-690 SPY). Battery replacement had no effect. Longines service assured me that a full service would fix it (I had no confidence in this, but what the hell). After the service it was running at .... exactly the same -690 SPY. Back to Longines again to have another try. So not only did they not fix it, they didn't even test it properly, since you don't need anything very powerful to measure -2 SPD.


----------



## Watchman Dan

jthole said:


> I saw two regular quartz Conquest watches. In both ones, the seconds hand missed most of the indices. That would drive me crazy.


Hmmm, yes I just noticed it too. On mine it is spot on for all the applied indexes on the flat part of the dial, but off up to .4 sec on the printed seconds marks on the angled collar. It is mostly just on the 20 sec span between 9 o'clock and 1 o'clock. I think it could be due to printing distortion on the angled collar. My Certina Rookie, also with a collar, has some of this irregularity in a different spot. And even my Certina Action Quartz COSC with an all flat dial, has it to a lesser extent (< .2 sec). So I'm thinking that this may be a problem with a lot of stepped seconds hand Quartz if they have seconds markers. If you think about it, with an automatic sweep seconds, you probably wouldn't notice an error even if it was there.


----------



## DaveM

Walked past Longines shop in Londons Oxford-street. All of window-advertising and big product-display was for Longines VHP.
Jean Paul Biver (the famous Swiss cheese-maker) once said ' Blancpain will NEVER make a (look of disgust on his face) quartz-watch'.
Perhaps things are changing. In a few years time might we see a new OysterQuartz ?


----------



## jthole

Just like mechanical watches were retro for the quartz generation, quartz watches are retro for the smartwatch generation. So times are changing indeed, also for the Swiss.


----------



## jthole

In the past 15 days, my VHP got almost no wrist time, and gained 0.44 seconds. That's disappointing indeed, because at that rate it would end at 10 SPY.

I don't monitor the temperature in the bedroom, but in winter I guess it will range between 15 and 18 degrees. Window open or not, daytime or night, outside temperature.


----------



## DaveM

jthole said:


> In the past 15 days, my VHP got almost no wrist time, and gained 0.44 seconds. That's disappointing indeed, because at that rate it would end at 10 SPY.
> 
> I don't monitor the temperature in the bedroom, but in winter I guess it will range between 15 and 18 degrees. Window open or not, daytime or night, outside temperature.


I think that corresponds with what we are seeing.
The watch is well calibrated at the 'on wrist' temperature of about 28C

The thermal compensation is working, 10C change on an uncompensated watch might result in a change of 110 seconds per year (see excellent sticky).
But Longines compensate to an average curve, and there is variability in the actual curves (remember that 1 spy is about 1 part in 30 million).
So the typical 'off wrist' error is more than 5spy (although some samples may be spot on).

Longines should have either included 'on the wrist' in their specification or spent a bit more money taking the 'thermal fingerprint' of each xtal and then compensating for it.


----------



## chris01

DaveM said:


> Longines should have either included 'on the wrist' in their specification or spent a bit more money taking the 'thermal fingerprint' of each xtal and then compensating for it.


Or, retained the simple regulation facility that makes every VHP (apart from the original Li VHP) potentially supremely accurate for each user. We don't even know if the new one can be regulated.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> I do think a more interesting experiment would be to take any old quartz watch, measure its rate v temperature, then see if you can get 1 SPY with it. Rather more of an achievement than forcing a 5 SPY VHP to do what it's supposed to.
> 
> I have a bad feeling about Longines service, and am expecting no good news; either they'll refuse to do what's asked of them, or they will just do their normal setup that only works for a full-time wearer.
> 
> My lack of enthusiasm is aggravated by my ongoing experience with my wife's (old) VHP. After running happily at +5 SPY (my least accurate VHP of 2017), it suddenly started losing 2 SPD (-690 SPY). Battery replacement had no effect. Longines service assured me that a full service would fix it (I had no confidence in this, but what the hell). After the service it was running at .... exactly the same -690 SPY. Back to Longines again to have another try. So not only did they not fix it, they didn't even test it properly, since you don't need anything very powerful to measure -2 SPD.


Silly Chris, it is running correctly. 2 sec/day is well within spec for a COSC watch, we all know that mechanicals are the only true watches so what is the problem? :-d

I have to wonder what in the world happens in these service centers. Is it

1) guy at receiving opens the watch, customer sent a detailed letter what was wrong
2) guy at receiving makes notes on the repair ticket, send it to a 1st line tech
3) t1st line tech looks at the watch, makes some notes, sends it to a 2nd line tech
4) 2nd line tech gets the notes: WATCH EEZZZ BRRROKE. He puts in a new battery, hears ticking, "ees feexxx'd"

I swear that's what happens. If you're "really lucky" they'll scratch the case, put a juicy fingerprint under the crystal and break the spacer ring. And add some dust on the dial for good measure. :roll:

And don't think that's over-the-top satire, I had something similar to that happen to me once from a well known watch company (not Swatch Group but I've heard of some of the same things about Omega's US service in NJ). It's why I refuse to send a watch in for warranty work unless something is REALLY wrong with the watch.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Silly Chris, it is running correctly. 2 sec/day is well within spec for a COSC watch, we all know that mechanicals are the only true watches so what is the problem? :-d


That was exactly my thought about what had happened. And it's not even a COSC (just a humble VHP), so that performance is very good. o|


----------



## chris01

Basel 2018 has brought two VHP announcements. The chrono doesn't seem to be greatly different from last year's model, just cosmetic I think. Did the original chrono ever actually make it into the shops?

The interesting one is the GMT. At last there's a use for the push-in crown: switching between local and remote time zones, which seems pretty useful. The other, unexpected item is the flash time setting from a phone app, with a photo detector embedded in the 12 numeral. This is supposed to allow independent setting of the two time zones. I hope they do a better job with the instruction manual; otherwise this will be a seriously crippled watch.

Flash setting brings back memories of the departed Xonix and Telstar self-calibrating watches. My two digital models are completely hopeless, but the analogue (non-TC of course) Telstar has been running unattended for 653 days and has lost 1.05s = -0.6 SPY. Beat that, Longines and Citizen!

Edit: the 1.05s is corrected for the leap second in Dec. 2016, and the watch was not adjusted for DST.


----------



## ronalddheld

I remember the Xonix thread. 
I wonder if they will have a flash setting for the time only VHP?


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> I remember the Xonix thread.
> I wonder if they will have a flash setting for the time only VHP?


I can't see that happening, without some major increment in complication(s). It would require a new dial at least (not to mention a new user manual :-(). The GMT seems a good place for it, with two independent times to manage.

No idea whether the GMT is the same size as the 3-H, but I suspect it might be a bit thicker, to allow for the 4th hand and the 24H ring. Longines never give that dimension in their material.


----------



## ronalddheld

chris01 said:


> I can't see that happening, without some major increment in complication(s). It would require a new dial at least (not to mention a new user manual :-(). The GMT seems a good place for it, with two independent times to manage.
> 
> No idea whether the GMT is the same size as the 3-H, but I suspect it might be a bit thicker, to allow for the 4th hand and the 24H ring. Longines never give that dimension in their material.


Well it was just a thought. Should be saving for the caliber 0100.


----------



## Tom-HK

GMT HAQs are few and far between, so this is a welcome addition, in my book. Plus, of course, the 24hr track should address the problem some had with the sub-second markers on the original 3-hander.

It may still be luck-of-the-draw, however, as to whether you get one that runs at 5 SPY off the wrist.


----------



## ronalddheld

anyone going for the GMT version?


----------



## chris01

ronalddheld said:


> anyone going for the GMT version?


Probably nothing to panic about for the next 6-9 months, but another year or two before the Citizen arrives. I'm waiting to see if they can get my 3-H working to my satisfaction first.


----------



## chris01

As has been noted on the Longines forum, the GMT appears to have been 'disappeared'. Maybe Longines decided the technology wasn't ready.


----------



## jthole

After having worn the watch for most of the past 10 days, it looks like 5spy is attainable again ... the projected deviation is now 5.2 seconds. No doubt it would be less if I kept up this wearing pattern.


----------



## Miguel

Hi,

After 61 days, the watch being worn the first 2 weeks during this period and the rest of the time at room temperature varying between 18 and 22 degrees Celsius, my Longines forecast is 3.19 spy.

The one that worries me is my DS-2 titanium that after around two weeks of heavy use of the chronograph some time ago, it is now showing an accuracy of 12 spy, while in the pass it was around 6 spy, perhaps a battery issue :-(

Cheers,

Miguel


----------



## chris01

Miguel said:


> The one that worries me is my DS-2 titanium that after around two weeks of heavy use of the chronograph some time ago, it is now showing an accuracy of 12 spy, while in the pass it was around 6 spy, perhaps a battery issue :-(
> Cheers,
> Miguel


I doubt that it's battery, even with a lot of chrono use. Mine has lasted so far 53 months, with light chrono use.
Your timekeeping variation is more in line with wearing pattern, being very close to my rates for unworn and worn, respectively.
Anyway, you'll soon find out if it really is the battery dying.


----------



## Miguel

chris01 said:


> I doubt that it's battery, even with a lot of chrono use. Mine has lasted so far 53 months, with light chrono use.
> Your timekeeping variation is more in line with wearing pattern, being very close to my rates for unworn and worn, respectively.
> Anyway, you'll soon find out if it really is the battery dying.


Thanks Chris for your comment.

Regards 
Miguel


----------



## Watchman Dan

Are we even sure that the VHP Movement is actually thermocompensated? I can find nothing online to indicate that it is. I would think that ETA would mention it somewhere if it was. Some posters are saying that their VHP accuracy is different depending on the temperature, which seems to suggest against the movement being thermocompensated. It sounds like the accuracy comes from hi frequency and possibily by using separate motors.

Now, I know for a fact that the Regular Conquest Does indeed have a thermocompensated movement, even though it is not advertised as such. Perhaps because Longines don't want us to know that the regular model at a measured 10spy is almost as accurate as the new VHP at a stated 5spy... I mean, who would get excited over such a small 5 sec. a year improvement! Member cfmcmillan measured it at +8.5 spy, which makes it even more negligible. I opened my regular Conquest and it uses a E64.111. This movement is in fact, thermocompensated and has been around for quite a few years.


----------



## Hans Moleman

Dan Finch said:


> Are we even sure that the VHP Movement is actually thermocompensated? I can find nothing online to indicate that it is. I would think that ETA would mention it somewhere if it was. Some posters are saying that their VHP accuracy is different depending on the temperature, which seems to suggest against the movement being thermocompensated. It sounds like the accuracy comes from hi frequency and possibily by using separate motors.
> 
> Now, I know for a fact that the Regular Conquest Does indeed have a thermocompensated movement, even though it is not advertised as such. Perhaps because Longines don't want us to know that the regular model at a measured 10spy is almost as accurate as the new VHP at a stated 5spy... I mean, who would get excited over such a small 5 sec. a year improvement! Member cfmcmillan measured it at +8.5 spy, which makes it even more negligible. I opened my regular Conquest and it uses a E64.111. This movement is in fact, thermocompensated and has been around for quite a few years.


E64.111 comes in a Precidrive option:

Here's how to tell what you've got:


----------



## chris01

Dan Finch said:


> Are we even sure that the VHP Movement is actually thermocompensated? I can find nothing online to indicate that it is. I would think that ETA would mention it somewhere if it was. Some posters are saying that their VHP accuracy is different depending on the temperature, which seems to suggest against the movement being thermocompensated. It sounds like the accuracy comes from hi frequency and possibily by using separate motors.
> 
> Now, I know for a fact that the Regular Conquest Does indeed have a thermocompensated movement, even though it is not advertised as such. Perhaps because Longines don't want us to know that the regular model at a measured 10spy is almost as accurate as the new VHP at a stated 5spy... I mean, who would get excited over such a small 5 sec. a year improvement! Member cfmcmillan measured it at +8.5 spy, which makes it even more negligible. I opened my regular Conquest and it uses a E64.111. This movement is in fact, thermocompensated and has been around for quite a few years.


Please don't think I'm wishing to be rude, but it does seem that you haven't spent much time in studying this forum. The idea that ETA just abandoned a technology of which they (via Longines) were pioneers, in favour of plain HF quartz, is just not credible. The new VHP movements are almost certainly an evolution of the quite new PreciDrive (thermocompensated) technology. Some individual calibres, including your E64.111, as Hans has pointed out, can be with or without PreciDrive. Does yours carry the PD logo and does it really run at 10SPY over 12 months?

Almost any TC watch will display temperature sensitivity, as is evident in the variance between worn and unworn annual rates that is very common. There is currently an issue for some new VHP owners that their watch doesn't meet the Longines spec, especially if not worn daily. Since Longines neglected to mention any required conditions, it's not entirely unreasonable to expect their much-hyped new movement to have a better temperature insensitivity than older watches. This, however, appears to be a vain hope. Whether 5SPY v 10SPY is a negligible improvement is possibly a matter for Longines to explain, since it's a major USP for them, and it is not an unqualified success. We all know what happens when sales & marketing get to override the engineers, and hope that nobody notices. We probably won't achieve compensation on a VW scale though.


----------



## Watchman Dan

Hans Moleman said:


> E64.111 comes in a Precidrive option:
> 
> Here's how to tell what you've got:
> 
> View attachment 13031127


Actually, Precidrive is NOT really an option. Either a given Caliber has it or doesn't...
For example, The E64.111 only comes as a Precidrive. (your diagram shows an incorrect number E6411). Compare this to the E64.041, which is not a Precidrive. See www.eta.ch for a more detailed listing of each caliber's features.

The only option here is whether the movement is COSC. Although all precidrives are cable of COSC accuracy (+/-2sec/mo -- and most exceed it in practice), not all are officially registered as COSC. If they are it will have a serial number as indicated.... For example My Longines Precidrive E64.111 does _NOT_ have COSC. But my Certina Precidrive _DOES_ have COSC and it has a serial number.

Thanks!


----------



## gaijin

Dan Finch said:


> ...(your diagram shows an incorrect number E64.11) ...


The diagram clearly shows "E64111" In the magnified portion to the right, the final "1" is cut off by the circle indicating the limit of the magnified portion.

FYI


----------



## Watchman Dan

chris01 said:


> Please don't think I'm wishing to be rude, but it does seem that you haven't spent much time in studying this forum. The idea that ETA just abandoned a technology of which they (via Longines) were pioneers, in favour of plain HF quartz, is just not credible. The new VHP movements are almost certainly an evolution of the quite new PreciDrive (thermocompensated) technology. Some individual calibres, including your E64.111, as Hans has pointed out, can be with or without PreciDrive. Does yours carry the PD logo and does it really run at 10SPY over 12 months?
> 
> Almost any TC watch will display temperature sensitivity, as is evident in the variance between worn and unworn annual rates that is very common. There is currently an issue for some new VHP owners that their watch doesn't meet the Longines spec, especially if not worn daily. Since Longines neglected to mention any required conditions, it's not entirely unreasonable to expect their much-hyped new movement to have a better temperature insensitivity than older watches. This, however, appears to be a vain hope. Whether 5SPY v 10SPY is a negligible improvement is possibly a matter for Longines to explain, since it's a major USP for them, and it is not an unqualified success. We all know what happens when sales & marketing get to override the engineers, and hope that nobody notices. We probably won't achieve compensation on a VW scale though.


_*Please don't think I'm wishing to be rude, but it does seem that you haven't spent much time in studying this forum.* _
Actually, I have. Given that this thread is 35 pages, highly technical, and requires some speculation due to a lack of technical information from Longines, I think readers will differ on reaching their own conclusions. Based on what we know so far, I offer my opinions to help explain what others are experiencing. Take them or leave them, as I am not really looking for validation of my knowledge here.

_*The idea that ETA just abandoned a technology of which they (via Longines) were pioneers, in favour of plain HF quartz, is just not credible.*_
Several points I'd like to make in response:
1) The nature of technology is for newer technology to replace old. We may not really know exactly what new technology is employed in the new VHP. But, we do know that Longines has previously "abandoned" several technologies over the years as have other watchmakers, as necessary to say competitive. Take the obsolete Ultra-Quartz technology of 1970. In the VHP, they have dropped HF. In mechanical movements, ETA has dropped the rate from 4Hz to 3Hz in their high tech escapements of the PowerMatic 80.
2) ETA was not the pioneer of Thermocompensation as you state. AsuLab was in 1984, developing the L276.2 for the Longines VHP 276. ETA merely refined it later by adding adjustment to the rate, along with changing the Lithium cell to Silver Oxide. L174.2 (ETA 255.561).
3) The new VHP is most likely not HF, since no specs are given. Old VHPs were HF (262K), but went standard in 1994 (32K). They only state hand stepping of 400 Hz, which may be high Freq for stepping motors, but not for oscillators! This sounds like an improvement of their 200 Hz PowerDrive technology. The "Hand Position Detector" technology, sounds like their HeavyDrive technology. What else makes it so accurate, we don't know for sure. It's a different animal with 3 motors and no jewels, which hints at possibly no drivetrain.

*The new VHP movements are almost certainly an evolution of the quite new PreciDrive (thermocompensated) technology. 
*Precidrive is 5 years old, so not really "quite new". However, Thermocompensation is quite old, dating from 1984. We have to assume that the new VHP doesn't have TC, in the absence of any official mention of TC from Longines. Correct me if they have...

*Some individual calibres, including your E64.111, as Hans has pointed out, can be with or without PreciDrive. 
*This is incorrect. Individual Calibers of a specific number are either PreciDrive or not, never both. The E64.111 of the regular Conquest is PreciDrive and therefore, has TC. Refer to www.eta.ch to see which Calibers have TC in the movement specs. Unfortunately, the new VHP cals. ETA E56.111 and ETA E57.211 (chronometer) specs are not listed, so we can only speculate. Hans diagram shows that a given Precidrive movement can be either COSC or not. As most people familiar with COSC already know, the two are easily distinguished by the presence of a COSC serial number. They come both ways, but have similar performance. Neither the preciDrive Conquest nor the VHP Conquest is COSC. Surprising, given that Tissot and Certina offer COSC on Quartz watches in the $300 range, but perhaps Longines as a brand don't offer it.

*Does yours carry the PD logo?
*Yes, but it is not really necessary to look at this microscopic logo if you know the cal. number. One can simply look up the caliber number on ETA's website. The best way to tell visibly, is to simply look at the Quartz component. A common "can type" quartz crystal indicates that it's regular and not TC. A TC quartz looks like a flat circuit component.

*and does it really run at 10SPY over 12 months?
*A similar movement in my Certina (F06.411) runs at +.75 SPM, or about 10 SPY off the wrist. In my Regular Conquest, it is the same +.75 SPM for the month I've owned it, so I'm expecting the same.

_*Almost any TC watch will display temperature sensitivity, as is evident in the variance between worn and unworn annual rates that is very common. There is currently an issue for some new VHP owners that their watch doesn't meet the Longines spec, especially if not worn daily. Since Longines neglected to mention any required conditions, it's not entirely unreasonable to expect their much-hyped new movement to have a better temperature insensitivity than older watches. This, however, appears to be a vain hope. *_
I would think that Longines stated 5SPY is off the wrist. Most COSC testing is done at at a reference of 23 C or room temp 73 F deg. For COSC Quartz (which must be TC) the spec calls for +/- 2 sec/mo @ 23 C, and +/- 6 sec/mo at 38 C or 100 F deg. So it is possible that TC does not eliminate all variation as you suggest. Applying this to Longines 5 SPY at room temp, it indicates we might get up to 15 SPY on the wrist, assuming it is TC. Even if it isn't, temp variation may play an even bigger role in some of the differences posters here are reporting.

_*Whether 5SPY v 10SPY is a negligible improvement is possibly a matter for Longines to explain, since it's a major USP for them, and it is not an unqualified success. We all know what happens when sales & marketing get to override the engineers, and hope that nobody notices. We probably won't achieve compensation on a VW scale though.*_
If the VHP is very close to the old PreciDrive in terms of accuracy, I don't think we'll hear anything about it from Longines for obvious reasons.


----------



## ppaulusz

Dan Finch said:


> *Please don't think I'm wishing to be rude, but it does seem that you haven't spent much time in studying this forum.*
> Actually, I have. Given that this thread is 35 pages, highly technical, and requires some speculation due to a lack of technical information from Longines, I think readers will differ on reaching their own conclusions...
> 3) The new VHP is most likely not HF, since no specs are given. Old VHPs were HF (262K), but went standard in 1994 (32K)...


I'm afraid you should have studied this forum a bit longer and/or deeper because you do not really understand the concept of the HF (262kHz) quartz in the earlier VHP models. That HF (262kHz) quartz worked exactly the same way as the thermo-sensor that replaced it in the later VHP models. It purely registered the temperature of the movement as part of the thermocompensation scheme. It did not run the timekeeping oscillator (which was a 32kHz quartz) so even the old VHP models were not HF in the sense of the current Bulova Precisionist models or the earlier Seiko Perpetual Calendar models (Cal.8F family) not to mention the MHz-range quartz watches from the late 70s.


----------



## hughesyn

Dan Finch said:


> In the absence of any official mention of TC from Longines, we must assume that the VHP doesn't have it.


Of course it has thermocompensation :roll:


----------



## chris01

Another one for the Ignore List.


----------



## Tom-HK

Dan Finch said:


> 2) ETA was not the pioneer of Thermocompensation as you state. AsuLab was in 1984, developing the L276.2 for the Longines VHP 276. ETA merely refined it later by adding adjustment to the rate, along with changing the Lithium cell to Silver Oxide. L174.2 (ETA 255.561).




It's nitpicking, I know, but since we're already in that territory - Chris did not say that ETA was _*the*_ pioneer of thermocompensation (Rolex and Seiko got there first). What AsuLab kicked off in 1984, ETA developed. And not just in the refinements that they made to the dual oscillator VHP but in their further development of thermistor-based designs. Whilst the Japanese persisted with dual oscillators and HF movements, and Rolex couldn't get their quartz watches to do much better than 60 SPY, ETA set the standard for 10 SPY, thermistor-based operation. To have gone back to the mid-70s approach of using high frequency oscillators is, as Chris said, not credible.




Dan Finch said:


> 3) The new VHP is most likely not HF, since no specs are given. Old VHPs were HF (262K), but went standard in 1994 (32K).




As another member pointed out, the 262 kHz oscillator in the early models was only ever an auxilliary oscillator. I do find ETA's use of their auxilliary oscillator to be distinct from Seiko's approach, and in that respect quite interesting. Whilst Seiko (in the 'Twin Quartz' range) had both oscillators running all the time, ETA's auxilliary 262 kHz oscillator fired up only once every inhibition cycle. I have discussed the implications of this in another post, somewhere, but the result was a watch with better long-term performance than those produced by Seiko at the time. Anyway, to cut a long story short, as the other poster said, the early VHPs were definitely still 32 kHz watches.



Dan Finch said:


> *The new VHP movements are almost certainly an evolution of the quite new PreciDrive (thermocompensated) technology.
> *Precidrive is 5 years old, so not really "quite new". However, Thermocompensation is quite old, dating from 1984. In the absence of any official mention of TC from Longines, we must assume that the VHP doesn't have it.




Nitpicking again, but the first thermocompensated watch was released in 1977 (just not by ETA). Now why on earth must we, in the absence of any specific mention by Longines, assume that the new VHP does not have thermocompensation? Every high-accuracy quartz movement turned out by ETA over the last thirty-odd years has had thermocompensation. And it isn't just ETA. Wherever anyone else (aside from Bulova, who have specifically made a point of going all HF) from Seiko and Citizen to Hoptroff, Morgenwerk and DeHavilland have attempted to make a high accuracy quartz watch, they have employed thermocompensation. I would also point out that a watch without thermocompensation cannot be considered for COSC chronometer status. Now, whilst I don't believe there is currently a chronometer-certified version of the new VHP, it would simply not make sense for ETA to have gone and developed a completely new movement that could not possibly be submitted to the COSC at any point in the future. ALL of their current range of high-accuracy movements (currently designated 'PreciDrive') can be submitted for COSC certification.


----------



## Watchman Dan

hughesyn said:


> Of course it has thermocompensation :roll:


OK, then kindly share your reference for this. I am happy to stand corrected!


----------



## Watchman Dan

ppaulusz said:


> I'm afraid you should have studied this forum a bit longer and/or deeper because you do not really understand the concept of the HF (262kHz) quartz in the earlier VHP models. That HF (262kHz) quartz worked exactly the same way as the thermo-sensor that replaced it in the later VHP models. It purely registered the temperature of the movement as part of the thermocompensation scheme. It did not run the timekeeping oscillator (which was a 32kHz quartz) so even the old VHP models were not HF in the sense of the current Bulova Precisionist models or the earlier Seiko Perpetual Calendar models (Cal.8F family) not to mention the MHz-range quartz watches from the late 70s.


Interesting, I wonder why they clocked one crystal at 262kHz, but not the other. Different approaches I guess. Thanks for making the distinction!


----------



## hughesyn

Dan Finch said:


> OK, then kindly share your reference for this. I am happy to stand corrected!


Stating the bleeding obvious.

You might want to contact A Blog to Watch and ask that the references to thermocompensation be removed from their article.


----------



## jthole

Why would it not have thermocompensation? I mean, why invent something new when you have something on the shelf that's working?

It might be that the characteristics of each individual crystal are not mapped specific enough, but it would require quite some effort to _design_ a non-TC movement to consistently fall within the 10spy or less range.


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator suggests we concentrate on technical aspects and less on personal implicit sniping.


----------



## Miguel

Dan Finch said:


> OK, then kindly share your reference for this. I am happy to stand corrected!


"The most prominent feature of the new models and the entire VHP collection is of course the accuracy of ±5 seconds per year, owing to a thermo-compensated quartz L289.2 (ETA E57.211) caliber" from:

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/longines-conquest-vhp-chronograph-watch/

"What they created, was a thermo-compensated quartz movement, with a perpetual calendar, gear-position detection system, shock correction system, end-of-life indicator, and a smart crown to operate it all with." from:

​http://www.gearzeit.com/home/2018/2/2/longines-vhp-review

​


----------



## DaveM

Miguel said:


> "The most prominent feature of the new models and the entire VHP collection is of course the accuracy of ±5 seconds per year, owing to a thermo-compensated quartz L289.2 (ETA E57.211) caliber" from:
> 
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/longines-conquest-vhp-chronograph-watch/
> 
> "What they created, was a thermo-compensated quartz movement, with a perpetual calendar, gear-position detection system, shock correction system, end-of-life indicator, and a smart crown to operate it all with." from:
> 
> ​Longines VHP Review ? Gearzeit
> 
> ​


Micro Crystal are the company in Swatch who specialise in timing crystals.
They have a real-time clock-module 'RV-8803-C7 'with thermo-compensation.
One would expect that they work with ETA on the 'heart' of quartz movements.

The module is only specified to +/- 1.5 ppm ( about 45s per year), but that is over 0 to 50C and looks to be a conservative figure for a basic model. 
So with a bit of tweaking it might be as accurate as the new Longines VHP.

It is worth reading the manual (just search for RV-8803-C7). Lots of complicated stuff, but also some very interesting information :-
> Ageing (3ppm per year, this suggests crystal pre-ageing is required for VHP watches).
> Effect of vibration.
> Information about how thermo-compensation works.

It is like a high-end Thermo-compensated VHP chronograph
>Perpetual calendar
>Stop-watch
>Alarm
All this on a chip (3.2mm by 1.5mm) which only uses about 250nA (40 years on a CR2016) and costs less than £2 (1-off).
You could make a nice pocket-watch with it, perhaps a good final-year project.
It is also good that Swatch group are doing this, I can see a lot of technical (if not commercial) synergy between watches and Internet-of-things clocks.

The more I dig around the greater my confidence that the new VHP uses a 32khz thermocompensated crystal.
Micro Crystal make high-frequency devices, but nothing interesting.


----------



## hughesyn

Miguel said:


> "The most prominent feature of the new models and the entire VHP collection is of course the accuracy of ±5 seconds per year, owing to a thermo-compensated quartz L289.2 (ETA E57.211) caliber" from:
> 
> https://www.ablogtowatch.com/longines-conquest-vhp-chronograph-watch/
> 
> "What they created, was a thermo-compensated quartz movement, with a perpetual calendar, gear-position detection system, shock correction system, end-of-life indicator, and a smart crown to operate it all with." from:
> 
> ​Longines VHP Review ? Gearzeit
> 
> ​


To be fair, those blogs might have made the same assumption that most of us did.
There is always the possibility that ETA have invented a quartz oscillator that is loads less temperature sensitive, so gives good performance with no form of thermocompensation.

In the absence of a statement from Longines spelling it out, we just have to assume that they have used a small amount of unobtanium to stabalise the crystal.


----------



## chris01

hughesyn said:


> In the absence of a statement from Longines spelling it out, we just have to assume that they have used a small amount of unobtanium to stabalise the crystal.


Not quite enough for mine.


----------



## Hans Moleman

hughesyn said:


> In the absence of a statement from Longines spelling it out, we just have to assume ...


That is some very screwy logic.

Example: I won't tell you if I've broken my leg.

Reaction: "Oh my God he's broken his leg!"

No, it does not work that way.

Not disclosing something, does not allow you to deduct anything from it.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> That is some very screwy logic.
> 
> Example: I won't tell you if I've broken my leg.
> 
> Reaction: "Oh my God he's broken his leg!"
> 
> No, it does not work that way.
> 
> Not disclosing something, does not allow you to deduct anything from it.


Given the rest of that sentence, isn't it just possible that he omitted the smiley? Or should we make an unwarranted assumption that he's not very bright?  o|


----------



## hughesyn

Hans Moleman said:


> That is some very screwy logic.
> 
> Example: I won't tell you if I've broken my leg.
> 
> Reaction: "Oh my God he's broken his leg!"
> 
> No, it does not work that way.
> 
> Not disclosing something, does not allow you to deduct anything from it.


Good point, well made. :roll:

Just to be clear: unobtanium is very hard to get hold of, so it's very unlikely that they used it to stabilise the crystal. It's rather more likely that it is thermocompensated.


----------



## Hans Moleman

hughesyn said:


> Good point, well made. :roll:
> 
> Just to be clear: unobtanium is very hard to get hold of, so it's very unlikely that they used it to stabilise the crystal. It's rather more likely that it is thermocompensated.


I personally prefer the unobtanium fantasy.
At least I can imagine an Indiana Jones character searching in the depth of the jungle. Until he stumbles on a rock that mysteriously glows blue.

That sells a lot better than relying on that trusted 20 year old technology called thermo compensation. That's just boring.


----------



## Watchman Dan

Hans Moleman said:


> I personally prefer the unobtanium fantasy.
> At least I can imagine an Indiana Jones character searching in the depth of the jungle. Until he stumbles on a rock that mysteriously glows blue.
> 
> That sells a lot better than relying on that trusted 20 year old technology called thermo compensation. That's just boring.


You may have stumbled upon the reason Longines/ETA don't mention TC anywhere... It's not exactly new, and doesn't fit the "new achievement" hype!

"_*The Conquest V.H.P. represents a new achievement in the field of quartz, combining great precision, high technicality and a sporty look, marked by the brand's unique elegance." 
*_-_Longines Press Release, April 2017_


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> I personally prefer the unobtanium fantasy.
> At least I can imagine an Indiana Jones character searching in the depth of the jungle. Until he stumbles on a rock that mysteriously glows blue.
> 
> That sells a lot better than relying on that trusted 20 year old technology called thermo compensation. That's just boring.


Given Longines' obsession with equine sport, I suspect the technology is based on something more fundamental.


----------



## jthole

The last three weeks, I have been traveling, so I have worn the VHP almost every day. The measurements are surprising, and a bit confusing:

1-3 10.08 sec (10 metingen)
5-3 9.97 sec (10 metingen)
9-3 9.96 sec (10 metingen)
15-3 9.86 sec (10 metingen)
24-3 9.52 sec (10 metingen)
1-4 9.65 sec (10 metingen)
7-4 9.70 sec (10 metingen)

The results of March 24 could be a measurement error. But it looks like the watch is losing time when it's mostly worn, and gaining time when it's in the watch box.

FYI; the time measured is the time passed between the time.is time source and when the watch passes the 10 seconds mark. So a shorter measured time means that the watch runs faster.

Given my stopwatch measurement method, I doubt whether 0,05 seconds are significant, so I take the deviation between last Saturday and today with a pinch of salt.


----------



## chris01

jthole said:


> The last three weeks, I have been traveling, so I have worn the VHP almost every day. The measurements are surprising, and a bit confusing:
> 
> 1-3 10.08 sec (10 metingen)
> 5-3 9.97 sec (10 metingen)
> 9-3 9.96 sec (10 metingen)
> 15-3 9.86 sec (10 metingen)
> 24-3 9.52 sec (10 metingen)
> 1-4 9.65 sec (10 metingen)
> 7-4 9.70 sec (10 metingen)
> 
> The results of March 24 could be a measurement error. But it looks like the watch is losing time when it's mostly worn, and gaining time when it's in the watch box.
> 
> FYI; the time measured is the time passed between the time.is time source and when the watch passes the 10 seconds mark. So a shorter measured time means that the watch runs faster.
> 
> Given my stopwatch measurement method, I doubt whether 0,05 seconds are significant, so I take the deviation between last Saturday and today with a pinch of salt.


The worn v unworn performance is not (to me at least) surprising.

Perhaps your raw data would be less confusing if you could convert them into SPD/SPW/SPM/SPY, whichever is more appropriate, so that we can all get a feel for what's going on. A graph is often the best tool.


----------



## Hans Moleman

jthole said:


> The last three weeks, I have been traveling, so I have worn the VHP almost every day. The measurements are surprising, and a bit confusing:
> 
> 1-3 10.08 sec (10 metingen)
> 5-3 9.97 sec (10 metingen)
> 9-3 9.96 sec (10 metingen)
> 15-3 9.86 sec (10 metingen)
> 24-3 9.52 sec (10 metingen)
> 1-4 9.65 sec (10 metingen)
> 7-4 9.70 sec (10 metingen)
> 
> The results of March 24 could be a measurement error. But it looks like the watch is losing time when it's mostly worn, and gaining time when it's in the watch box.
> 
> FYI; the time measured is the time passed between the time.is time source and when the watch passes the 10 seconds mark. So a shorter measured time means that the watch runs faster.
> 
> Given my stopwatch measurement method, I doubt whether 0,05 seconds are significant, so I take the deviation between last Saturday and today with a pinch of salt.


I could not wait, and had to view your data as a graph.


----------



## Watchman Dan

ppaulusz said:


> I'm afraid you should have studied this forum a bit longer and/or deeper because you do not really understand the concept of the HF (262kHz) quartz in the earlier VHP models. That HF (262kHz) quartz worked exactly the same way as the thermo-sensor that replaced it in the later VHP models. It purely registered the temperature of the movement as part of the thermocompensation scheme. It did not run the timekeeping oscillator (which was a 32kHz quartz) so even the old VHP models were not HF in the sense of the current Bulova Precisionist models or the earlier Seiko Perpetual Calendar models (Cal.8F family) not to mention the MHz-range quartz watches from the late 70s.


Do you know how many quartz crystals are in the new VHP 3 handers? I wonder why they put 3 motors in and if each one has its own oscillator. Is this how they got better accuracy?


----------



## Tom-HK

Dan Finch said:


> Do you know how many quartz crystals are in the new VHP 3 handers? I wonder why they put 3 motors in and if each one has its own oscillator. Is this how they got better accuracy?


There'll be one quartz oscillator in the new VHP, as normal. The use of multiple motors allows the hands to move independently of each other. This allows for hands to perform multiple functions (such as, with a perpetual calendar, indicating months and leap years, for example). With single motor designs, all three hands have to run off the same gear train.


----------



## jthole

Dan Finch said:


> Do you know how many quartz crystals are in the new VHP 3 handers? I wonder why they put 3 motors in and if each one has its own oscillator. Is this how they got better accuracy?


Did you read the patent application I posted here? That explains how the motors are driven.


----------



## Watchman Dan

DaveM said:


> I think that corresponds with what we are seeing.
> The watch is well calibrated at the 'on wrist' temperature of about 28C
> 
> The thermal compensation is working, 10C change on an uncompensated watch might result in a change of 110 seconds per year (see excellent sticky).
> But Longines compensate to an average curve, and there is variability in the actual curves (remember that 1 spy is about 1 part in 30 million).
> So the typical 'off wrist' error is more than 5spy (although some samples may be spot on).
> 
> Longines should have either included 'on the wrist' in their specification or spent a bit more money taking the 'thermal fingerprint' of each xtal and then compensating for it.


Came across and interesting reference to temps, but it applies to PreciDrive...

_*"PreciDrive** can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c."*
www.eta.ch

_Not quite sure how to interprerate this. COSC is 25 SPY @ 23 C, and 73 SPY from 8 C to 38 C.
So does ETA mean they get 25 SPY or better from 20 C to 30C ? (68 F to 86 F, which is roughly room temp on & off wrist.)_
_
Compared to ETA's original claims of 10 SPY, it looks like they are now backing off this. Not sure if that's because they don't meet 10 SPY under the entire range of 20 C - 30 C, or if they don't want PreciDrive to look so good when compared to the new VHP!

_*"Using its new exclusive PreciDrive technology, ETA is proud to offer annual precision of +/- 10 seconds."
*-Original ETA Precidrive Press Release

_


----------



## jthole

Hans Moleman said:


> I could not wait, and had to view your data as a graph.
> 
> View attachment 13041227


I have some graphs too, will post them tomorrow. The 24-3 measurement looks to be an error indeed.


----------



## Tom-HK

Dan Finch said:


> Came across and interesting reference to temps, but it applies to PreciDrive...
> 
> _*"PreciDrive** can achieve a precision which can pass the COSC chronometer certification, provided the watch is not exposed to impacts, and kept at a temperature of between 20°c and 30°c."*
> www.eta.ch
> 
> _Not sure how to interprerate this. COSC is 25 SPY @ 23 C, and 73 SPY from 8 C to 38 C.
> So does ETA they mean they get 25 SPY from 20 C to 30C?_
> _
> Compare this to ETA's original claims of 10 SPY. It looks like they are now backing off this. Not sure if that's because they don't meet it, or if they don't want PreciDrive to look so good when compared to the new VHP!
> 
> _*"Using its new exclusive PreciDrive technology, ETA is proud to offer annual precision of +/- 10 seconds."
> *-Original ETA Precidrive Press Release
> 
> _


When they said their movement could pass chronometer certification, they did not say by how much. This is important because brands can charge more for watches that have chronometer certification and it would fundamentally undermine the value of that certification if they were to openly publicise the fact that their own in-house spec is already considerably tighter than the COSC standard.

ETA guarantee 10 seconds per year (now 5, with the new VHP movement), often with a handful of caveats about temperature or wearing pattern. For HAQ, this is about the current industry standard. It's 10 SPY (sometimes 5) for Grand Seiko; 5 SPY for Citizen. The 25 SPY COSC certification is, by-and-large, irrelevant.


----------



## Tom-HK

Whilst I am loitering in this thread, today, I thought I might stick my neck out and rehash something that is already covered in the stickies but which perhaps has not been clearly stated in the open forum for a while and which may not have been noticed by some people who are perhaps newer to HAQ.

Temperature is the enemy of quartz. As temperature changes, so does the rate at which a quartz crystal oscillates. A quartz watch works by counting the number of oscillations that the crystal makes and advancing the hands when roughly 32,768 oscillations have occurred. If a quartz crystal is oscillating too fast, the next second will fall ahead of when it should.

So the problem of temperature has to be addressed if you want a truly high accuracy watch. There are three approaches:


1) fix a steady temperature
2) use a more thermally insensitive oscillator
3) compensate for the thermal changes

In practice, some combination of these is always used. Whether you are using a less thermally sensitive XO or are making certain corrections for measured temperature changes, you still want to specify a temperature range for which your promised rate will apply. A regular wearing pattern helps, as the wrist does wonders for keeping a watch at a steady temperature, but a good HAQ implementation, finely and properly adjusted, should be able to deliver on-spec high accuracy even off the wrist and at a sensible range of normal climatic conditions.

So, short of keeping your watch in an oven, you are going to need either a less thermally sensitive XO or some method of compensating for measured temperature changes (or both).

In the early days of quartz watches, they went with AT-cut, MHz range crystal oscillators. These had much better thermal performance than lower frequency, XY-cut crystals, but for one reason or another they fell out of fashion. Seiko persisted, for a while, with 196 kHz oscillators, but they could offer only 20 SPY at the best of times, and were easily outclassed by the 10 SPY and 5 SPY offerings from the thermocompensated brigade.

Thermocompensation comes in several forms. You could either measure the temperature of the watch and adjust the voltage going into the XO in order to tweak its rate of oscillation, or you could measure the temperature of the watch and then adjust the frequency count on the IC side. You could use a single oscillator coupled with a thermistor, or you could use two oscillators with different thermal properties in order to measure changes in temperature. But either way you had to have programmed into the IC a record of the XO's temperature-frequency profile.

What it all boils down to is the fact that you are measuring and then compensating for changes in temperature - you are using thermocompensation. Different brands use different methods, but aside from Bulova, everyone else ditched the thermoinsensitivity approach years ago. Everyone else, in making a high accuracy quartz watch, uses some method of actively adapting to temperature changes - thermocompensation.

And that's it. Essentially, if you want a high accuracy watch and don't plan on having an incubator as your watch box, then you have only one simple choice : you must either use a high frequency oscillator or employ some model of thermocompensation. The use of dual oscillators went out decades ago, so everyone now uses thermistors, but the other aspects of how each manufacturer crafts its thermocompensation set-up is not usually publicly disclosed and knowledge is therefore pieced together from research on fora such as this.


----------



## Tom-HK

I see the VHP GMT is possibly back on the cards, following its little disappearing act.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/wearables/time-obsessed-tech-infused-longines-conquest-watch-takes-accuracy-to-the-next-level/


----------



## Tom-HK

My one comment on the above-linked VHP GMT article is that it seems to have been written by someone who does not demonstrate a strong understanding of how quartz watches work. More specifically, where the article states

"because due to these components the watch knows when the time is wrong and automatically readjusts"

it seems to imply that the watch somehow knows what the correct time is and adjusts its own display of time to match. This is, perhaps, slightly misleading. The movement, of course, does not know the true time; it tracks only what _should be_ the correct time (to within about 5 seconds per year) based on a corrected count of oscillations. What the VHP has to offer is the ability to track time independently of the movement of the hands, and to 'know' where the hands are in relation to the dial. This is not, of course, a feature completely unique to Longines. Any time you have a watch with multiple motors and a perpetual calendar you find a watch with a movement that tracks time independently of the hands. This allows the hands to go off and perform other functions (typically related to the date but also sometimes in relation to power, in the case of solar-powered watches) and then have the watch resume its normal function with the hands advancing to the proper positions for the current time.

The added features of the VHP, of course, are the adjustment of the hands after a shock and the pausing of the hands during strong magnetic interference. I'm not clear whether the periodic check and realignment of hands is unique to the VHP, or whether this is something similar to what we have seen in the DS-2.


----------



## woodville63

GMT flash setting reminds me of Xonix self-calibrating. Pretty cool technology - Xonix should have stuck at it.


----------



## Tom-HK

You can still pick up Xonix watches and I even saw an app for the old Atom Time system on the Google Play store, a few days ago. It definitely isn't wide-spread, but it seems the flashing technology is still lingering in places.


----------



## woodville63

Tom-HK said:


> You can still pick up Xonix watches and I even saw an app for the old Atom Time system on the Google Play store, a few days ago. It definitely isn't wide-spread, but it seems the flashing technology is still lingering in places.


I always wanted them to add 5spy.:-d


----------



## DaveM

Tom-HK said:


> I see the VHP GMT is possibly back on the cards, following its little disappearing act.
> 
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/weara...quest-watch-takes-accuracy-to-the-next-level/


The interface using light-sensor sounds quite clever. Perhaps it gives useful connectivity with minimal impact on battery life.
There is no downside :-
-- the watch is still completely self contained rather than being a 'slave' to the phone
-- It can talk to the phone
--- but on its own terms


----------



## jthole

Here is the measurement data so far, extrapolated to one year. I assume that the March 24 measurement was either an error, or wrongly noted down. I am currently wearing the watch a lot because I am traveling. I'll leave it for two weeks in the box again soon, and see if the pattern repeats. If yes, then that is worrying, because it would indicate that it runs way too fast at room temperature (19C).


----------



## chris01

woodville63 said:


> I always wanted them to add 5spy.:-d


If you read my earlier post on the GMT, you'll see that Xonix with 5SPY would have been a considerable downgrade. 

Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 52


----------



## woodville63

chris01 said:


> If you read my earlier post on the GMT, you'll see that Xonix with 5SPY would have been a considerable downgrade.
> 
> Longines VHP 2017 Collection - Page 52


As our Cilla would say, gob-smacked. Xonix could be the kings of haq if they wanted it.


----------



## woodville63

Longines VHP Commonwealth Games advert. Looks pretty good. Looks to be hitting the seconds markers.:-!


----------



## Tom-HK

It's been a while since the Commonwealth Games version was first advertised and I can't say that it has grown on me at all over the last four months.

Is anyone planning on getting one of these? If the GMT version comes into being, I might hold out for that one.


----------



## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> It's been a while since the Commonwealth Games version was first advertised and I can't say that it has grown on me at all over the last four months.
> 
> Is anyone planning on getting one of these? If the GMT version comes into being, I might hold out for that one.


There's a new one on eBay, but it's 43mm. I don't know if they did the smaller size. The GMT (if it ever really exists) looks a better bet to me. But only if there's a manual. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Longines-Conquest-Quarz-VHP-Gold-Coast-2018-Commonwealth-Games-neu/222915601707?hash=item33e6ce252b:g:AmkAAOSwWxxayf3w


----------



## cfmcmillan

jthole said:


> Here is the measurement data so far, extrapolated to one year. I assume that the March 24 measurement was either an error, or wrongly noted down. I am currently wearing the watch a lot because I am traveling. I'll leave it for two weeks in the box again soon, and see if the pattern repeats. If yes, then that is worrying, because it would indicate that it runs way too fast at room temperature (19C).


My measurements would suggest that at 19°C, it would run about 10 s/yr fast. That probably qualifies as "way too fast". It's encouraging to see that we're getting similar results.


----------



## tmathes

jthole said:


> Here is the measurement data so far, extrapolated to one year. I assume that the March 24 measurement was either an error, or wrongly noted down. I am currently wearing the watch a lot because I am traveling. I'll leave it for two weeks in the box again soon, and see if the pattern repeats. If yes, then that is worrying, because it would indicate that it runs way too fast at room temperature (19C).


I have no experience with temperature compensation in any watch except the two Precidrives I own and so far it's not that impressive; maybe I expected too much.

How does the modern VHP's t/c perforamnce stack up to the previous VHP and to the Seiko 9F and the Citizen HAQ offerings? From what I've read on F9, the t/c circuits in modern ETA movements isn't as good as the others I mentioned but I would like to hear comments of owners of the other watches, perhaps what I'm interpreting is wrong.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I have no experience with temperature compensation in any watch except the two Precidrives I own and so far it's not that impressive; maybe I expected too much.
> 
> How does the modern VHP's t/c perforamnce stack up to the previous VHP and to the Seiko 9F and the Citizen HAQ offerings? From what I've read on F9, the t/c circuits in modern ETA movements isn't as good as the others I mentioned but I would like to hear comments of owners of the other watches, perhaps what I'm interpreting is wrong.


The big advantage of all the older VHPs, except the very first Li VHP from ~1984, is that they can be quite easily regulated in steps of +/-4SPY, by anyone prepared to get their hands dirty. At least some of the PreciDrives can probably be regulated by a service centre, but not, in my experience, at home. The new VHP is a matter of debate, as Longines are giving me a replacement watch instead of what I assumed would be a minor tweak.

My own experience of VHPs, going back to 1986, is that +/-2SPY is achievable with some care in measuring the initial rate and allowing for seasonal ambient temperature changes. My own new VHP was +7.9 / +3.1 unworn/worn. Basically, crap.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> The big advantage of all the older VHPs, except the very first Li VHP from ~1984, is that they can be quite easily regulated in steps of +/-4SPY, by anyone prepared to get their hands dirty. At least some of the PreciDrives can probably be regulated by a service centre, but not, in my experience, at home. The new VHP is a matter of debate, as Longines are giving me a replacement watch instead of what I assumed would be a minor tweak.
> 
> My own experience of VHPs, going back to 1986, is that +/-2SPY is achievable with some care in measuring the initial rate and allowing for seasonal ambient temperature changes. My own new VHP was +7.9 / +3.1 unworn/worn. Basically, crap.


Thanks Chris. If I read your post properly, the t/c is about the same but initial trim is off?

I've been critical of initial trim from Swatch, it is not that tight. My two Certinas show the 10 sec/yr claim to be a target and not a spec as mine miss the mark by 60-150%.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Thanks Chris. If I read your post properly, the t/c is about the same but initial trim is off?
> 
> I've been critical of initial trim from Swatch, it is not that tight. My two Certinas show the 10 sec/yr claim to be a target and not a spec as mine miss the mark by 60-150%.


Yes, if you accept that the temperature insensitivity is no better than older TCs from ETA. I had hoped that they would have improved it. It will of course be interesting to see what the new one is like when it arrives. Previously the initial trim was not very important if you didn't mind poking about inside. My first VHP perp cal, which was about 10 years old when I got it, was running at +96 SPY. I sold it a few months later (only because the steel/gold wasn't my style) and it was at +1.5 SPY. OTOH, my very first Ti VHP, bought new, gained 10s in its first 5 years, without adjustment. So it can be done right!


----------



## WSN7

Has anyone bought the chronograph version yet? Absolutely love it, and will most likely be buying one after a promotion. Just want to see some real life pictures of it on wrist and want to know how much thicker/bigger it is than the standard three hand


----------



## Watchman Dan

tmathes said:


> Thanks Chris. If I read your post properly, the t/c is about the same but initial trim is off?
> 
> I've been critical of initial trim from Swatch, it is not that tight. My two Certinas show the 10 sec/yr claim to be a target and not a spec as mine miss the mark by 60-150%.


My Certina DS Action COSC with a PreciDrive F06.411 has been getting a consistent 10 SPY over the past 4 months. It mainly stays in the box at room temp, and gets worn occasionally.


----------



## tmathes

Dan Finch said:


> My Certina DS Action COSC with a PreciDrive F06.411 has been getting a consistent 10 SPY over the past 4 months. It mainly stays in the box at room temp, and gets worn occasionally.


Trimming is inconsistent with the Precidrives. I have a DS-2 Ti chrono that is around 24-25 sec/yr and a DS-8 that is 15-18 sec/yr. Both were bought from an AD. This was what partially prompted my original question, that and the previous conversation about performance over temperature. I thought it odd some were proposing (musing?) about storing the watches at elevated temps to meet spec but my thought was "why? if they're t/c shouldn't that eliminate the temp issue?"

Most owners here get much better than me, around 10 sec/yr like you do. I don't think anything is wrong with the watches but Swatch Group isn't the best at trimming these high accuracy movements.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> Trimming is inconsistent with the Precidrives. I have a DS-2 Ti chrono that is around 24-25 sec/yr and a DS-8 that is 15-18 sec/yr. Both were bought from an AD. This was what partially prompted my original question, that and the previous conversation about performance over temperature. I thought it odd some were proposing (musing?) about storing the watches at elevated temps to meet spec but my thought was "why? if they're t/c shouldn't that eliminate the temp issue?"
> 
> Most owners here get much better than me, around 10 sec/yr like you do. I don't think anything is wrong with the watches but Swatch Group isn't the best at trimming these high accuracy movements.


"Temperature compensation" unfortunately has not yet achieved "temperature independence". I have never seen a TC watch that didn't care whether or not it was worn. All my older VHPs ran/run faster when warm, slower when cold. The newer ETA calibres appear to reverse this, as my PreciDrive Certina DS-2 chrono does +6 with daily wear and around +12 unworn. This is similar behaviour to my new VHP (+3.1, +7.9). Since I can't regulate these two, I would have been much happier if they were both 4 SPY slower.


----------



## j708

just stumbled across this beauty in the shop today. watched a review and wow! love the stand by mode and the price is too good to be true.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> "Temperature compensation" unfortunately has not yet achieved "temperature independence". I have never seen a TC watch that didn't care whether or not it was worn. All my older VHPs ran/run faster when warm, slower when cold. The newer ETA calibres appear to reverse this, as my PreciDrive Certina DS-2 chrono does +6 with daily wear and around +12 unworn. This is similar behaviour to my new VHP (+3.1, +7.9). Since I can't regulate these two, I would have been much happier if they were both 4 SPY slower.


Even at -10 sec/yr shift with daily wear, one of my watches, the DS-2, wouldn't hit their claimed values. I consider 10 sec/yr is a target, not a spec since they don't put temp specs around that value plus they don't say "plus/minus xx seconds/yr). Also, I'd risk getting the watch munged up if I sent it in for adjustment, I do not trust Swatch's repair group in NJ, way, way too many bad stories from that repair center on other forums.

I like Swatch's designs in general but I find their assembly quality and trimming/adjusting of watches to be inconsistent. I've had more than my share of quality problems with their watches out of the box, WAY too many (and in each case the AD agreed it was shoddy what I was shipped when they examined it upon return). The mechanicals I own are also at the edge of their spec, they all run 10-12 sec/day fast. Funny thing is the 'inferior' Sellita SW200 powered watch I own was COSC accurate out of the box. Go figure.


----------



## Robinoz

A Longines VHP watch has been produced for the Commonwealth Games recently held at Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia. I've seen it advertised on TV while watching the games and would really love to hear how many they sold at the GC as a result.


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## jthole

Worn for another week; it looks like when worn, the watch gains around 2 seconds per year.

In May and June, I am probably travelling a lot less; I'll see what happens then when I leave the watch in the box.


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## jthole

jthole said:


> Worn for another week; it looks like when worn, the watch gains around 2 seconds per year.


Actually less. Worn for almost a month now, 5 days per week. If I would keep doing this, it looks like the watch will be close to 0spy. So far the pattern, or my measurement method, is not very consistent yet.









Edit: I am using the stopwatch method (10 measurements each time), and I am not sure if differences of less than 0.5 seconds are actually meaningful.


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## jthole

There's no denying that the watch slows down when worn (almost) every day. It is going in my watch box now for the next two weeks, and then I'll measure again.









(And this time I saved the spreadsheet for re-use ;-) )


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## Miguel

Hello,

90 days since I bougth the Longines VHP three-hand. It have not yet gain its first second! It is randomly worn, competing with my mechanics and the Certinas. Projected accuracy based on the 91 days: *3.13 spy*. So far so good. I will also post the Certinas in the corresponding thread.

Regards,

Miguel


----------



## myn5054

Hello, please if someone helps me with the consultation. The bracelet is born in 20mm and goes shrinking to 16 or 18mm. or is it 20mm in its entire length? Thank you very much for your comments.

Enviado desde mi SM-T813 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## kapahoo

myn5054 said:


> Hello, please if someone helps me with the consultation. The bracelet is born in 20mm and goes shrinking to 16 or 18mm. or is it 20mm in its entire length? Thank you very much for your comments.
> 
> Enviado desde mi SM-T813 mediante Tapatalk


For the 41mm-version: shrinking to 18 mm.
I measured mine while searching for a suitable ratcheting clasp. Didn't find any that was a sure fit though...

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Old bill

I have been running some tests sinc the time change about 40 days ago. I have two Longines VHPs one stainless steel and one DPD coated. The DPD one is the newer version . Both have not been worn and have been kept in the same set of draws. The steel one is 1.1 sec fast which works out to about 10 spy. The DPD one is -0.3. Which at the moment comes to about 2.75 spy. I wonder if the DOD coated one has a slightly revised movement:
Just to compare I am also running one of the new COSC Certinas. That is running at 0.3 after 40 days.


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## myn5054

kapahoo said:


> For the 41mm-version: shrinking to 18 mm.
> I measured mine while searching for a suitable ratcheting clasp. Didn't find any that was a sure fit though...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks!!

I looking for the white model. Maybe this month I will buy one.

Enviado desde mi SM-T813 mediante Tapatalk


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## jthole

Old bill said:


> Just to compare I am also running one of the new COSC Certinas. That is running at 0.3 after 40 days.


I also have a COSC Certina, which will be well within 10spy if I can believe the measurements so far.

I don't measure that watch very frequently because I have to pry it off my wife's wrist first ;-) I made the "mistake" of giving it to her, and it has become her daily watch.


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## Hammermountain

myn5054 said:


> Thanks!!
> 
> I looking for the white model. Maybe this month I will buy one.
> 
> Enviado desde mi SM-T813 mediante Tapatalk


Same here! Just found this beaut. So next time I'm by the AD I'll check the sizes - a bit worried that the 41 will still be a tad bit too big for my 6,5 wrist...


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## myn5054

Last week I tried it on at a Longines boutique. Its beautiful. I have a trip in a few weeks I will see if I can buy it in the free shop at the airport.









Enviado desde mi SM-T813 mediante Tapatalk


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## Hammermountain

So I tried on the 41 yesterday. And I have to say it felt fantastic, and wore smaller than I imagined (sorry no pic). This is a strong contender now...


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## johant

Okay, I am definitely onto something; the watch runs slow when on the wrist frequently, and runs fast when it spends most time in the watch box.

Look at the data and graph for the details:









I didn't wear it much in March, wore it most of April (because I travelled between time zones twice a week), and didn't wear it much again in May.


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## woodville63

johant said:


> Okay, I am definitely onto something; the watch runs slow when on the wrist frequently, and runs fast when it spends most time in the watch box.


I was wondering whether a NATO would have an impact as it will act as an insulator maintaining a constant(ish) temp whether on the wrist or not? Probably less of a question with thermo-compensated quartz, but you never know.


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## WSN7

Can anyone let me know if the bracelets have screws or if they're push pins?


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## kapahoo

WSN7 said:


> Can anyone let me know if the bracelets have screws or if they're push pins?


Push pins.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WSN7

kapahoo said:


> Push pins.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks for the quick response. Bummer


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## chris01

johant said:


> Okay, I am definitely onto something; the watch runs slow when on the wrist frequently, and runs fast when it spends most time in the watch box.


You are undoubtedly correct in your observation, although this is a well-established deficiency in the thermo-compensated performance of most HAQs. My experience is that the older Longines VHPs run slower when cold, faster when warmer; while the new movements - PreciDrive and the latest VHP - show the opposite effect. The rather depressing fact is that, even after the Longines/ETA developments of the last 35 years, the temperature independence (worn v unworn) has not noticeably improved. I would have expected that by now there should be no more than, say, 1 or 2 SPY difference in rate, and that a correctly regulated watch from the factory should run well within its spec, at least until some ageing of the electronics shows its ugly head.


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## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> You are undoubtedly correct in your observation, although this is a well-established deficiency in the thermo-compensated performance of most HAQs. My experience is that the older Longines VHPs run slower when cold, faster when warmer; while the new movements - PreciDrive and the latest VHP - show the opposite effect. The rather depressing fact is that, even after the Longines/ETA developments of the last 35 years, the temperature independence (worn v unworn) has not noticeably improved. I would have expected that by now there should be no more than, say, 1 or 2 SPY difference in rate, and that a correctly regulated watch from the factory should run well within its spec, at least until some ageing of the electronics shows its ugly head.


That requires:
A thermometer that's spot on. No lag or nothing neither.
Frequent temperature measurements and corrections. Every 8 minutes is far too rough. You're missing a lot if you wait that long.

Mmmm. I am sure thermo compensation is a valid method. It needs a lot more fine tuning for those last few seconds.


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## DaveM

chris01 said:


> You are undoubtedly correct in your observation, although this is a well-established deficiency in the thermo-compensated performance of most HAQs. My experience is that the older Longines VHPs run slower when cold, faster when warmer; while the new movements - PreciDrive and the latest VHP - show the opposite effect. The rather depressing fact is that, even after the Longines/ETA developments of the last 35 years, the temperature independence (worn v unworn) has not noticeably improved. I would have expected that by now there should be no more than, say, 1 or 2 SPY difference in rate, and that a correctly regulated watch from the factory should run well within its spec, at least until some ageing of the electronics shows its ugly head.


I Agree.
From the results reported it seems to me that there is a small amount of variation in the temperature vs rate curves of the timing crystals. It is easy to forget how tiny the changes are, 1spy is about 1 part in 32 million ! ETA could measure the curve for each crystal and load a custom compensation-curve, but they have decided that this is too expensive.
We focus on the spy specification, but this is meaningless unless the temperature-range under which it will be achieved is also specified.
Longines best attempt is 'Typically 5s per year'.
This is almost as good as 'Down to 5s per year' !
I prefer a 10s per year watch engineered and tested to meet the spec over (say) 10 to 30C during the warranty period.


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## chris01

DaveM said:


> I Agree.
> From the results reported it seems to me that there is a small amount of variation in the temperature vs rate curves of the timing crystals. It is easy to forget how tiny the changes are, 1spy is about 1 part in 32 million ! ETA could measure the curve for each crystal and load a custom compensation-curve, but they have decided that this is too expensive.
> We focus on the spy specification, but this is meaningless unless the temperature-range under which it will be achieved is also specified.
> Longines best attempt is 'Typically 5s per year'.
> This is almost as good as 'Down to 5s per year' !
> I prefer a 10s per year watch engineered and tested to meet the spec over (say) 10 to 30C during the warranty period.


It may be that they have discarded the ultimate tool for keeping the watch accurate. It is debatable whether some or even any PreciDrive movements can be regulated after they leave the factory, almost certainly not by the end user or their local watchmaker. The new VHP is worrying, as my first, out-of-spec, example was simply replaced instead of receiving a quick tweak. As for the second watch - watch this space.


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## DaveM

chris01 said:


> It may be that they have discarded the ultimate tool for keeping the watch accurate. It is debatable whether some or even any PreciDrive movements can be regulated after they leave the factory, almost certainly not by the end user or their local watchmaker. The new VHP is worrying, as my first, out-of-spec, example was simply replaced instead of receiving a quick tweak. As for the second watch - watch this space.


Yes, if a watch is designed to be this accurate it is crazy not to have a convenient post-manufacture regulation-mechanism.
> Best if it can be carried out by the owner
> Acceptable if it can be carried out by a competent local watchmaker
> Not acceptable if only Swatch service-organisation can carry it out
The previous VHP perpetual-calendar which was introduced about 22 years ago, must be rated as a classic design 
In 22 years the amount of computing-power that can be achieved within a given power-usage and cost budget has increased by several orders of magnitude, but in a lot of ways the capability of the 'Longines VHP' offering has gone backwards.
The previous version offered
> 10 year battery
> local-watchmaker regulation and perpetual-calendar reset


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## chris01

DaveM said:


> Yes, if a watch is designed to be this accurate it is crazy not to have a convenient post-manufacture regulation-mechanism.
> > Best if it can be carried out by the owner
> > Acceptable if it can be carried out by a competent local watchmaker
> > Not acceptable if only Swatch service-organisation can carry it out
> The previous VHP perpetual-calendar which was introduced about 22 years ago, must be rated as a classic design
> In 22 years the amount of computing-power that can be achieved within a given power-usage and cost budget has increased by several orders of magnitude, but in a lot of ways the capability of the 'Longines VHP' offering has gone backwards.
> The previous version offered
> > 10 year battery
> > local-watchmaker regulation and perpetual-calendar reset


Yes, dead right. Over the last 4 full years my three VHP PCs averaged +1.9, +0.2, +0.6 SPY, respectively, without any regulation. Obviously I regulate them myself when necessary and also do the required calendar reset after regulation (not needed after just a battery change). They are all less dependent on wearing pattern than the new model.


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## dr.sphinx

Am I right that except for Basel 2017 attendees (who were likely presented with a mock-up anyway) nobody has yet seen the chronograph? Frankly, the 3-hander is quite a disappointment, mainly from design and workmanship perspective (case thickness, general dial work - the concentric circular concept is neat, but the alignment of indexes in the watch I handled was quite abysmal, even for a 1k+ watch). 

I am particlularly wondering about the chronos - if they're going to work like the Precidrive Certinas (especially on terms of chrono resetting), in my book that would be a clear indication of the modern VHPs being (just) better spec'd Precidrives. 

On the whole, the whole presentation of the 3-hander VHPs at my local dealer's was quite unconvincing - as if the Swiss, who unleashed the whole fashion-watch trend on us through Swatch were not sure what audience it wants to speak to with a HAQ.


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## chris01

dr.sphinx said:


> I am particlularly wondering about the chronos - if they're going to work like the Precidrive Certinas (especially on terms of chrono resetting), in my book that would be a clear indication of the modern VHPs being (just) better spec'd Precidrives.


The very slim instruction booklet that now (after a long delay) arrives with the 3-hander does also describe the chrono. It makes no mention of resetting the hands, so maybe the GPD feature does that job automatically. It seems to me very likely that this is an upgraded PreciDrive technology, since that is now displacing all the earlier ETA TC movements in currently offered watches (especially Certina).


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## dr.sphinx

Sorry I didn't put it well. GPD should do the job of hand alignment competently enough as it's marketed as one of the highlights. I've read the "instructions" - then again, if Rolex can supply minimal information in their booklets, why can't Longines. Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi, oh well.

What I had in mind was resetting the chrono after operation - blazingly fast, almost on mechanicals' level with the DS-2. Also, in the DS-2 the chrono keeps going past 12hrs - quite a wonderful feature in a quartz chrono. I sold my DS-2, maybe the VHP will be a good replacement - as long as it does what Certina Precidrive can.


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## jthole

dr.sphinx said:


> Am I right that except for Basel 2017 attendees (who were likely presented with a mock-up anyway) nobody has yet seen the chronograph? Frankly, the 3-hander is quite a disappointment, mainly from design and workmanship perspective (case thickness, general dial work - the concentric circular concept is neat, but the alignment of indexes in the watch I handled was quite abysmal, even for a 1k+ watch).


That's interesting, because I think the finishing of my VHP is quite good (including the bracelet), especially when I compare it to my Certina Action DS. Sounds like either there is a lack of QA, or maybe tolerances are slightly more sloppy for the 2018 models. Or it is just a matter of different expectations.

With regards to the second hand hitting the indices; mine is absolutely spot-on, across the entire dial. Given how sloppy some other brands are (yes, I am looking at you, Omega!) that is one of the little enjoyments of the VHP for me.


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## dr.sphinx

The finishing is on a higher level than the Certinas, that's for sure. Here, I felt that the size of the indexes was not really proportional to the size of the dial, let alone how crooked they were. The chrono might take care of the proportions issue. 

Different expectations: sure, not all HAQ is on GS or The Citizen level re finishing etc. but the new VHPs are cheaper so that's fine. It's the proportions that bother me more. 

To get more things off my chest: I have to say that I am not totally into the complete fly-by-wire operation, but that could be just me, fair enough in a super-modern caliber. The crown looks weird. 5 ATM almost feels like they must have actively tried to reduce WR, then they oddly say how sporty it's supposed to be. Not just my own issue by any means  In theory, they might have had to let go of basic decent WR features because of this stupid high-tech crown of theirs. 

I really wanna see them actually launch the chronos, it's time really.


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## tmathes

dr.sphinx said:


> The finishing is on a higher level than the Certinas, that's for sure. Here, I felt that the size of the indexes was not really proportional to the size of the dial, let alone how crooked they were. The chrono might take care of the proportions issue.
> 
> Different expectations: sure, not all HAQ is on GS or The Citizen level re finishing etc. but the new VHPs are cheaper so that's fine. It's the proportions that bother me more.
> 
> To get more things off my chest: I have to say that I am not totally into the complete fly-by-wire operation, but that could be just me, fair enough in a super-modern caliber. The crown looks weird. 5 ATM almost feels like they must have actively tried to reduce WR, then they oddly say how sporty it's supposed to be. Not just my own issue by any means  In theory, they might have had to let go of basic decent WR features because of this stupid high-tech crown of theirs.
> 
> I really wanna see them actually launch the chronos, it's time really.


There is _nothing _special nor new about that "magic crown" in this ETA movement. Citizen was doing the same thing at least 10 years ago. One of their later movements with this idea, the E650 movement (used in the likes of the AT4008-54E watch) is similar to the Longines and was introduced around 2010 or 2011. I owned an AT4008-51E for over 6 years now, I thought the fly-by-wire hand movement is a slick idea and I love it (especially that the seconds hand goes to zero when you need to set it). The Citizen's operation isn't identical to the Longines' but it's the identical idea, 'fly by wire'. So nothing Longines did with that movement is so new nor innovative at all in that regard nor the is the anti-shock features. I found a US patent from Citizen that describes a similar system:

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4404510A/en

I also found another one more recent than that (I think around 2005) but couldn't locate it right now.

I do agree with you about wanting to see the chrono, it's been vaporware for nearly 18 months. They're mimicking Omega in that regard....


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## dr.sphinx

You're obviously right, I didn't mean to imply that Longines came up with it. When it comes to standard HAQ, I find the The Citizen solution (regular crown/hands coupling, user-adjustable PC, extra motor (am I right?) for the date change that happens on the dot - the VHPs actually appear to do the same based on available videos) the best. 

But - if I'm right that the smart crown or whatever is the reason for the comparatively low WR, I would have preferred the less fancy coupling. 

How do those Citizens you mention do on terms of WR? I really might be full of **** when it comes to the WR theory :-d


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## chris01

dr.sphinx said:


> You're obviously right, I didn't mean to imply that Longines came up with it. When it comes to standard HAQ, I find the The Citizen solution (regular crown/hands coupling, user-adjustable PC, extra motor (am I right?) for the date change that happens on the dot - the VHPs actually appear to do the same based on available videos) the best.
> 
> But - if I'm right that the smart crown or whatever is the reason for the comparatively low WR, I would have preferred the less fancy coupling.
> 
> How do those Citizens you mention do on terms of WR? I really might be full of **** when it comes to the WR theory :-d


The Citizen E510 Eco-Drive movement was completely drive-by-wire and was superior in every way to the new Longines. Much easier to use and I think it's one of the most technically advanced 3-hand movements ever. Unfortunately mine was a bit out of spec and (as proved by the gentleman I sold it to, who sent it back to Citizen for regulation) not able to be regulated.

I can see no reason for the feeble 5 bar WR of the new VHP. The older VHP PCs all had an active crown, which actually did something useful when pressed in against a spring, Depending on the model (Flagship with clip on back, 2 screw-back Conquests), they had 3 or 10 or 20 bar WR, all with much slimmer, lighter cases. The Citizen E510 Exceed, EB174-1742, was 10 bar, with a Ti case similar in size to the two Conquest PCs.


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## DaveM

Hans Moleman said:


> That requires:
> A thermometer that's spot on. No lag or nothing neither.
> Frequent temperature measurements and corrections. Every 8 minutes is far too rough. You're missing a lot if you wait that long.
> 
> Mmmm. I am sure thermo compensation is a valid method. It needs a lot more fine tuning for those last few seconds.


I disagree. The temperature experienced by the electronics rarely changes quickly. I think that every 8min is acceptable so long as the temperature-measurement is accurate and noise-free.
As previously discussed I think that the problem is matching the (slightly different) temperature-curves of each crystal.


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## tmathes

Everyone, there is no difficulty in building a very accurate temp sensor into a watch. I build temp sensor circuits into my power IC designs often, their output (in mV/C) can be very accurate with no trim since you're using the diode junction built into every IC process to be the thermometer. It's a common IC design technique and these circuits are so accurate I found errors in my calibrated temp chamber set point one time.

Like I said before, getting the TC right isn't a matter of circuit design, it's how much a company is willing to spend on the back-end, that is, during manufacturing and in particular final test. From what I can tell Swatch won't spend the time (aka money) whereas Seiko and Citizen will. Then again the HAQ offerings from the Japanese "Big Two" are priced much higher but in return you do get vastly better materials and finishing. It's also why I don't find any of the Swiss offerings to be HAQ if 10 sec/yr is the definition, they don't turn out a product hitting those claimed targets repeatedly. I'm sure that statement will get me banned. :-d

I've found my el-cheapo non-TC 262kHz Bulovas (Citizens) are more consistent with their performance, which goes back to the final test thing; they claim 5 sec/mo but in my experience it's more like 1-2 sec. per month. I just do not think the Swiss pay as much attention since their bread and butter is mechanical movements. For crying out loud they couldn't even be bothered to put in an owner's manual with such an unusual design as the new VHP so it would not surprise me if their final test processes just are not that tight to hit what they claim in a high-volume production environment.


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## Hans Moleman

DaveM said:


> I disagree. The temperature experienced by the electronics rarely changes quickly. I think that every 8min is acceptable so long as the temperature-measurement is accurate and noise-free.
> As previously discussed I think that the problem is matching the (slightly different) temperature-curves of each crystal.


Take your watch off your wrist. Its temperature drops within seconds. Nothing feeds heat to it anymore.

I've seen the speed drop in my measurements within seconds after taken off the wrist. And when the movement decides that it can wait with taking a temperature for a few minutes, that error remains uncorrected.

Should a movement correct for temperature every second then?
That would be best but would cost a fair bit of energy.

Clearly there was a trade off at one time, and 8 minutes was 'good enough'.
If that trade off is still valid, I don't know.


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## ronalddheld

Too much power used for short term sampling and correction. Has anyone ever read how 8 minutes was chosen?


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## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> Too much power used for short term sampling and correction. Has anyone ever read how 8 minutes was chosen?


The inhibition period is not necessary 8 minutes in case of the ETA movements as you can find 16 minutes and even 4 minutes inhibition periods offered by ETA.
The fact that these movements make 1 correction in the inhibition period does not _necessary_ mean that only 1 temperature sampling is taken place during the inhibition period! It only means that 1 correction is applied but could mean _theoretically_ any number of temperature sampling in that given period. I _can argue _that the above inhibition periods were inverted to circumvent patent issues. We do not know for sure!


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## ppaulusz

Just a note: I can feel again that somehow the tone of this discussion is moving (again!) towards this: the Japanese (Citizen and Seiko) know how to do proper thermocompensation and the Swiss (ETA) don't. 
This is an old story in this forum and simply not true! It is ridden (unfortunately) by bias not by measured evidence.
Actually when forum members took the trouble and measured and compared thermocompensated movements from Citizen, Seiko and ETA it was easy to see that the Seiko 9F movements offered the best thermocompensation performance in the given temperature range. Citizen (A660 and E510) and the ETA (252.611) offered similar performance to each other but clearly not as good as the Seiko 9F. I can afford to be objective as I had a couple of the above mentioned Citizen movements and ETA movement fitted watches but so far I never had a Seiko 9F fitted watch.
Important note: the Seiko 9F can be calibrated even by the end-user though the calibration range is fairly limited while there is no such limitation with the early (non-current!) ETA movements as they can be calibrated without limit (I couldn't find so far any limit). Unfortunately even the top The Citizen (eg: A660) lacks calibration option and not just by the end-user but by the factory as well according to the unpleasant experiences of forum members who had sent back their out of specifications The Citizen to receive them back weeks later without any change in their running! I yet to read any report with evidence that factory re-calibration improved the performance of the The Citizen or that factory re-calibration had taken place at all! Replacement of the electronic parts of the movement is not re-calibration!


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## chris01

ppaulusz said:


> The inhibition period is not necessary 8 minutes in case of the ETA movements as you can find 16 minutes and even 4 minutes inhibition periods offered by ETA.
> The fact that these movements make 1 correction in the inhibition period does not _necessary_ mean that only 1 temperature sampling is taken place during the inhibition period! It only means that 1 correction is applied but could mean _theoretically_ any number of temperature sampling in that given period. I _can argue _that the above inhibition periods were inverted to circumvent patent issues. We do not know for sure!


The choice of the inhibition period (not, of course, the measurement frequency) could be explained as follows:

Frequency of the oscillator (in most cases) = 32768 Hz
The smallest correction possible is skipping or adding one pulse
If the correction was made each second this would change the overall rate by 1/32768 = 0.000030518 = +/-962 SPY
An inhibition period of 8 minutes would reduce the net effect of +/- one pulse by a factor of 8 x 60 = 2 SPY
16 minutes ... 1 SPY, 4 minutes ... 4 SPY

Just an afterthought:
Most ETA TC movements, including PreciDrives, have an inhibition period of 8 minutes, and (excluding the PDs) can be regulated in steps of +/-4SPY.. The 955.652 used in the Sinn UX diver has a 4 minute period and can be regulated only in steps of +/-8 SPY.


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## dr.sphinx

tmathes said:


> ...it's how much a company is willing to spend on the back-end, that is, during manufacturing and in particular final test. From what I can tell Swatch won't spend the time (aka money) whereas Seiko and Citizen will. Then again the HAQ offerings from the Japanese "Big Two" are priced much higher but in return you do get vastly better materials and finishing...


As ppaulusz says, the ETAs can perform very well too (as far as measurements by TC diehards on this forum go). But you nailed it on terms of everything else on top of the movement - it just feels to me like Longines are really confused about how to position their HAQ offerings. The JP crowd might appreciate the lower price, but comparatively unacceptable dialwork etc. will not leave them impressed (100% my own sentiment), HAQ veterans are going to hate the non-adjustability and general service dependency, the young sporty crowd they seem to target in their marketing may not give a damn and go for cheaper (and better looking?) non-HAQ offerings, even from Longines portfolio. Just my thoughts, don't mean to play the part of a self-proclaimed watchbiz marketing dude.

Anyway, where the hell are the chronos.


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## DaveM

Hans Moleman said:


> Take your watch off your wrist. Its temperature drops within seconds. Nothing feeds heat to it anymore.
> 
> I've seen the speed drop in my measurements within seconds after taken off the wrist. And when the movement decides that it can wait with taking a temperature for a few minutes, that error remains uncorrected.
> 
> Should a movement correct for temperature every second then?
> That would be best but would cost a fair bit of energy.
> 
> Clearly there was a trade off at one time, and 8 minutes was 'good enough'.
> If that trade off is still valid, I don't know.


1/ I guess that you could calculate a wrist-on/wrist-off cycle-time which would give a significant error if applied to an 8minute temperature-update watch for a few days, but the normal cycle-time is expressed in tens of hours (ie take it off at night). Short cycles (ie take it off for a shower) only occur a few times a day. So I stand by my assertion that in the real world 8 minutes would be OK.
2/ As Ppaulusz says an inhibition update every 8minutes can be based on much more frequent error-calculations. A well designed 'correct every 8 minutes' watch could provide accurate thermal compensation even if Hans exposed it to totally unrealistic operating conditions !


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## johant

Another week off the wrist, resulting in the watch running fast for another week; in June I will wear it again for a few weeks.

Of course, my watch box is not temperature controlled, so my measurements cannot be taken as too precise indications.


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## chris01

johant said:


> Another week off the wrist, resulting in the watch running fast for another week; in June I will wear it again for a few weeks.
> 
> Of course, my watch box is not temperature controlled, so my measurements cannot be taken as too precise indications.


Can you show an annualised total SPY value on your graph?


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## gaijin

chris01 said:


> Can you show an annualised total SPY value on your graph?


With apologies to @johant, and excuses for my American date format, I have slightly re-formatted johant's data to make a simple Sec/Year plot:










NOTE: Negative Sec/Year values are Fast. E.g. -1.49 Sec/Year is 1.49 Sec/Year Fast.

I had to assume all measurements were made at about the same time of day, but it should be a pretty good representation of the Sec/Year values.

HTH


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## jthole

@gaijin Thanks!

Personally I think my measurement period, and the limited accuracy, don't warrant a SPY calculation yet. I think I am going to include an aggregate SPY extrapolation at the quarterly measurement points.


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## ronalddheld

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/longines-vhp-conquest-review-hands-on/
Comments besides a HAQ plug?


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## ronalddheld

https://www.watchtime.com/featured/longines-vhp-conquest-review-hands-on/
Comments besides a HAQ plug?


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## Tom-HK

I thought it was a fairly reasonable write-up from several perspectives. I could take issue with a couple of points but compared with most HAQ reviews these would certainly be minor niggles. 

Overall I felt it reached the threshold for what I'd consider to be a decent contribution to this forum. Not that a few more knowledgeable members wouldn't want to jump in with corrections, of course, but definitely better than I had been expecting when I saw the familiar opening caveat of 'sorry this isn't a mechanical watch review'.


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## chris01

Tom-HK said:


> I thought it was a fairly reasonable write-up from several perspectives. I could take issue with a couple of points but compared with most HAQ reviews these would certainly be minor niggles.
> 
> Overall I felt it reached the threshold for what I'd consider to be a decent contribution to this forum. Not that a few more knowledgeable members wouldn't want to jump in with corrections, of course, but definitely better than I had been expecting when I saw the familiar opening caveat of 'sorry this isn't a mechanical watch review'.


Agreed. He seemed to have a more perceptive and informed approach than many other writers, who usually just repeat a somewhat mangled version of the company's press releases, that are themselves not very clear or informative. It's interesting that without exception, journalists and many on this forum just accept without question Longines' accuracy claim. I suspect if you ask an ETA engineer if it's really a 5 SPY movement, the response would be "it depends on what you mean by 5 SPY".


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## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> https://www.watchtime.com/featured/longines-vhp-conquest-review-hands-on/
> Comments besides a HAQ plug?


It's not up to the expectation of this forum...;-)


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## chris01

Longines Conquest VHP L3.716.4.56.6, 3-hand 41mm model.

Having reached the end of my experiences with the 2017 VHP model, it's time to produce a full report.

WATCH No.1

The accompanying graph shows the timing results over a 30-day period. This was done with high-speed (200 fps) video recording of the watch and a GPS clock/network time server.
Over the first 15 days, when the watch was unworn and kept at ambient domestic temperature, the annualised rate was +7.9 SPY.
The next 15 days, when the watch was worn for about 14 hours per day, showed a rate of +3.1 SPY.
The overall rate, equivalent to wearing for 3.5 days per week over 30 days, was +5.5 SPY.
Further wear would be required to bring the overall rate down to the highly-promoted 5 SPY, meaning that the watch would have to be worn at least 5 days per week just to reach the advertised rate.

The graph shows SPY against elapsed days. The red line is the unworn period; the blue line is ~14 hours' daily wear. The green line is the overall performance during the 30 days.









This is not my only watch and will be worn for a maximum of one or two days per week. Since Longines make no reference anywhere to a wearing pattern, and I would not have considered buying this watch if, for example, daily wear was a requirement, I regarded this performance as unacceptable.

With the very kind and helpful assistance of the manager of a local AD, this watch was replaced by another of the same model. For some reason there was no attempt made to regulate it (perhaps not actually possible?) and a replacement part (the entire movement?) was not available.

WATCH No.2

This was measured in the same way as the first watch, except that after the initial test periods - 15 days' unworn then 15 days of daily wear - another 15 days' unworn were timed.
Over the first 15 days, when the watch was unworn and kept at ambient domestic temperature, the annualised rate was +11.7 SPY.
The next 15 days, when the watch was worn for about 14 hours per day, showed a rate of +0.6 SPY.
The overall rate, equivalent to wearing for 3.5 days per week over 30 days, was +6.2 SPY.
The next 15 days, when the watch was unworn, the annualised rate was +10.4 SPY. 
The overall rate, equivalent to wearing for 2.3 days per week over 45 days, was +7.5 SPY.

As above, the graph shows SPY against elapsed days. The two red lines are the unworn periods; the blue line is ~14 hours' daily wear. The green line is the overall performance during the 45 days.









It is worth noting that the second watch was tested from mid-April to the end of May, when the ambient temperature was significantly higher than for the first watch, tested in February. Therefore, it would be expected that the second watch would run generally slower than the first. This was true for the period of daily wear but clearly not so when unworn.

Also, there was a large difference in the comparative worn/unworn rates of the two watches.
Watch no.1 showed *worn +3.1 / unworn +7.9*, a difference of +4.8 SPY.
Watch no.2 showed *worn +0.6 / unworn (+11.7&+10.4)*, a difference of +10.5 SPY.

It is impossible to reconcile this data with the manufacturer's claimed +/-5 SPY, without any stipulated wearing pattern.

After further discussion with my AD, we agreed that I would return the watch for a full credit against something else.

Here ends the tale of two VHPs. In 32 years of VHP ownership, totalling 9 watches, these were the least accurate models I have owned.


----------



## johant

That's a shame Chris ... I hope that Longines will increase the consistency (probably by better calibration in the factory).

My measurements are a bit confusing, and the circumstances were certainly not ideal as well. I have hardly worn the watch in May, but we had a very warm month, with daytime temperatures close to 30 degrees. 
We don't have airco, so that reflects the temperature inside as well.

Anyway, the only thing I can say at this point is that it looks like my VHP is going to end up well within the 5 SPY range. In June, I am going to wear it again for most of the days, and I'll see how that affects the measurements.
I also guess the "stopwatch method" might not be accurate enough for these kind of measurements, or there is too much variation in my reaction speed.









Edit: when testing the "stopwatch method" against the same time source, measuring a 10 seconds interval (10 measurements) gives me an a actual result of 9.99 seconds. That is consistent with the last time I did this test, when I measured against the same time source, and got a result of 9.96 seconds. So I do think measurement differences > 0.1 seconds are relevant.


----------



## chris01

johant said:


> That's a shame Chris ... I hope that Longines will increase the consistency (probably by better calibration in the factory).
> 
> My measurements are a bit confusing, and the circumstances were certainly not ideal as well. I have hardly worn the watch in May, but we had a very warm month, with daytime temperatures close to 30 degrees.
> We don't have airco, so that reflects the temperature inside as well.
> 
> Anyway, the only thing I can say at this point is that it looks like my VHP is going to end up well within the 5 SPY range. In June, I am going to wear it again for most of the days, and I'll see how that affects the measurements.
> I also guess the "stopwatch method" might not be accurate enough for these kind of measurements, or there is too much variation in my reaction speed. I am not sure if differences smaller than 0.5 seconds are really meaningful with my method.


It does look as if you can stay within the 5 SPY without too much effort. Obviously I could wear watch #2 daily and be satisfied with the performance, but that's not for me.

I usually use the S/W method for extended test periods, as I find video a fiddly and inconvenient method. With its 5 mS resolution (200 fps) it's useful, however, for looking at short periods, even daily rates. Much depends on your time source. A GPS receiver with a 1 PPS indicator is good well below 1 mS, while RC or internet time is not so predictable. Given a reasonable source, I have found decent consistency with the S/W after 10 days or so. I take 14 consecutive readings, discard the 2 highest and 2 lowest values then average the remaining 10. A bit laborious!

Good luck with it and keep us informed.

###
Just read your update to the last post: very encouraging if you can be confident in your measurements.


----------



## johant

Regarding the time source; what I do is this:

1) I stop the NTP daemon on my laptop
2) I manually force synchronisation against the NTP time source (pool.ntp.org)
3) I start the NTP daemon on my laptop again

While this probably is not as precise as a GPS time source (i.e. due to network latency), I think it is good enough for my weekly measurement intervals.


----------



## DaveM

johant said:


> That's a shame Chris ... I hope that Longines will increase the consistency (probably by better calibration in the factory).
> 
> My measurements are a bit confusing, and the circumstances were certainly not ideal as well. I have hardly worn the watch in May, but we had a very warm month, with daytime temperatures close to 30 degrees.
> We don't have airco, so that reflects the temperature inside as well.
> 
> When testing the "stopwatch method" against the same time source, measuring a 10 seconds interval (10 measurements) gives me an a actual result of 9.99 seconds. That is consistent with the last time I did this test, when I measured against the same time source, and got a result of 9.96 seconds. So I do think measurement differences > 0.1 seconds are relevant.


I do not think they are at all confusing, your spread-sheet shows exactly what you did.
It is nice to see the raw deviation-data with the time-elapsed between the measurements.


----------



## chris01

johant said:


> Regarding the time source; what I do is this:
> 
> 1) I stop the NTP daemon on my laptop
> 2) I manually force synchronisation against the NTP time source (pool.ntp.org)
> 3) I start the NTP daemon on my laptop again
> 
> While this probably is not as precise as a GPS time source (i.e. due to network latency), I think it is good enough for my weekly measurement intervals.


Can't see anything wrong with that.


----------



## Miguel

chris01 said:


> Can't see anything wrong with that.


What a shame. It is really disappointing that with Swatch Group is kind of hit and miss. I was "lucky" then (because it seems as a lucky thing) that my VHP is in specs. While wearing the watch it was around +3.3 spy and in rotation with the two Certinas it is now 3.80 after some three or four weeks of tracking.

I hope Citizen comes with interesting watches using the cal. 0100.


----------



## chris01

Miguel said:


> I hope Citizen comes with interesting watches using the cal. 0100.


Perhaps if the engineers can keep sales and marketing out of the loop, we'll get some honest data before we start buying the (as yet undefined) watch.


----------



## ppaulusz

chris01 said:


> Perhaps if the engineers can keep sales and marketing out of the loop, we'll get some honest data before we start buying the (as yet undefined) watch.


The big difference is - and that is a huge one - that the new Longines VHP was not supported by technological advancement (regarding precision/accuracy) so I was not expected any better accuracy/precision by it than the 35 year old technology allows so I did not purchase the new Longines VHP as only an advancement in the applied technology would have forced me to buy one as I did not particularly like its aesthetics while the Citizen Cal.0100 promises new technologies (8,4MHz quartz and improved thermocompensation scheme) that by the law of physics should offer much better accuracy/precision than the current (35 year old!!!) technology even if it won't meet the marketing department's 1 second/year claim. That new Citizen Cal.0100 will definitely perform better (precision/accuracy-wise) than any quartz caliber before it. How much better? I don't know, we shall see but it will be clearly better for sure (I'd say it will be no worse than 2 seconds/per year even in worst case scenario based on the promised applied technologies).


----------



## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> Perhaps if the engineers can keep sales and marketing out of the loop, we'll get some honest data before we start buying the (as yet undefined) watch.


I am delighted that more members are measuring the accuracy of their watches.
Some myths need busting.

And I think it was a good way you approached your AD.
"This is what I hope for, can you deliver?"

The question may be over AD's head, at least he was warned about requirements he usually can ignore.

And since the answer had to be 'No, we can't fulfill that requirement', there was no sale.

No need to jump in and hope for something that may or may not match your requirements.


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> I am delighted that more members are measuring the accuracy of their watches.
> Some myths need busting.
> 
> And I think it was a good way you approached your AD.
> "This is what I hope for, can you deliver?"
> 
> The question may be over AD's head, at least he was warned about requirements he usually can ignore.
> 
> And since the answer had to be 'No, we can't fulfill that requirement', there was no sale.
> 
> No need to jump in and hope for something that may or may not match your requirements.


The contributory factors here were, firstly, an AD whose primary concern was/is keeping her customer satisfied, especially once she understood that I am very serious about the issue and, secondly, her contact in Swatch Service who is similarly sympathetic. I had already been in contact with him over a different problem with an old VHP, and found that he was extremely helpful and fully aware of the meaning of VHP.

It would be interesting to know if any of this gets back to the Longines people who make decisions.

If we accept that the new watch is essentially a graft of updated (PreciDrive-Plus?) technology onto existing TC, then the big problem they have created for everybody is removal of the accessible regulation facility, without suppressing the vestigial temperature sensitivity. This would have allowed me, or a local watchmaker, to 'fix' Watch No.1, and to keep it fixed in the future as it aged or the climate changed. Having to send it to Service will probably cause the same issues as Tom_HK has reported with Citizen in Japan, i.e. it returns after an indefinite period with no change in performance, since their calibration procedure doesn't exactly reproduce the individual user's environment.


----------



## kapahoo

So... I've had mine for three months now.
For the first two I used the VHP for about 50% of the time and for the last month it's been on my wrist most of the time, say 90% or so. The sleeping pattern, or rather lack of pattern, of my kids have made me used to wear my watch during the night as well. (The lume on the VHP is great! Extremely easy to read in the dark.)
After numerous problems with different Certinas and Swatch Group Service and also with an automatic Seiko it seems this time I've been lucky, at least so far. Using the stop watch method, I'd say it's still bang on target. The errors I get are so small, and also both fast and slow so to speak, that I'm almost impressed of my own accuracy pressing the stop watch button.
I got very nervous at first(as described earlier in this thread) when it drifted two seconds for a day but it autocorrected itself back on track again. That is the only bump in the road so far. And It is a bit hard to find a good size on the bracelet. Butterfly clasps should be eternally banned from the planet Earth....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ppaulusz

kapahoo said:


> ...And It is a bit hard to find a good size on the bracelet. Butterfly clasps should be eternally banned from the planet Earth....


Butterfly clasp and lack of size-adjustability have nothing to do with each other! Butterfly clasps are great invention of watchmaking. The lack of size-adjustability indicates bad design.


----------



## jthole

ppaulusz said:


> Butterfly clasp and lack of size-adjustability have nothing to do with each other! Butterfly clasps are great invention of watchmaking. The lack of size-adjustability indicates bad design.


The problem seems to be that Longines USA does not sell half links. Here it was no problem at all to get a half link from the AD the watch came from.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## kapahoo

jthole said:


> The problem seems to be that Longines USA does not sell half links. Here it was no problem at all to get a half link from the AD the watch came from.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


Even with more halflinks there is no real possibility to quickly adjust the bracelet or at least fine tune with minor effort. 
With a foldover, preferably ratcheting clasp that would not be an issue.
Maybe this discussion is for another part of these forums though?


----------



## jthole

kapahoo said:


> With a foldover, preferably ratcheting clasp that would not be an issue.
> Maybe this discussion is for another part of these forums though?


Agreed ... though the Longines forum seems completely oblivious of the VHP.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## Tom-HK

I have found a video of the VHP GMT which appears to differ from that which I saw earlier in the year. It does not appear to be a new video, but since I cannot recall having seen it mentioned here before, I am linking to it now.






I apologise if this is something everyone has already seen.

I notice there is a price listed in the video, so possibly this watch might not be quite the vapourware that I had supposed it to be.


----------



## ronalddheld

http://forums.timezone.com/index.phpt=tree&goto=7538158&rid=669#msg_7538158


----------



## gangrel

Getting a 404 Not Found error on that link, ronald.


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> http://forums.timezone.com/index.phpt=tree&goto=7538158&rid=669#msg_7538158


Link does not work :-s


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## Hans Moleman

gaijin said:


> Link does not work :-s


I guess this was the intention.


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## ronalddheld

Hans Moleman said:


> I guess this was the intention.


Yes. Sorry for the bad link.


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## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> I guess this was the intention.


At last they've fixed the somewhat unpredictable performance. High Accuracy Diamond is the new HAQ. Add the brand ambassadors' expertise in watchmaking and they have a double winner. The grinning gargoyle gets in all these photos so I guess he's somehow part of the TC mechanism.


----------



## tmathes

Tom-HK said:


> I have found a video of the VHP GMT which appears to differ from that which I saw earlier in the year. It does not appear to be a new video, but since I cannot recall having seen it mentioned here before, I am linking to it now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apologise if this is something everyone has already seen.
> 
> I notice there is a price listed in the video, so possibly this watch might not be quite the vapourware that I had supposed it to be.


The WUS Longines forum sponsor, Topper Jewelers, is taking pre-orders for the VHP GMT and chrono:

https://shop.topperjewelers.com/col...vement_quartz+price_-1000-to-3000+gender_mens

List prices are on there along with model numbers. I've pre-ordered from them before (dealt with the store owner, Rob Kaplan), you can give him a call and ask any details. Rob's a great guy to deal with plus his store moves a lot of Swatch Group product, if anyone has an idea when these watches will show up it's him.


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## Soh1982

Does anyone know when these models will be available. I pre ordered vhp chronograph from last year and still haven’t received it. It just seems odd that longines has not fulfilled the orders for last year’s models and now they are taking pre orders for this year’s models???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WSN7

tmathes said:


> The WUS Longines forum sponsor, Topper Jewelers, is taking pre-orders for the VHP GMT and chrono:
> 
> https://shop.topperjewelers.com/col...vement_quartz+price_-1000-to-3000+gender_mens
> 
> List prices are on there along with model numbers. I've pre-ordered from them before (dealt with the store owner, Rob Kaplan), you can give him a call and ask any details. Rob's a great guy to deal with plus his store moves a lot of Swatch Group product, if anyone has an idea when these watches will show up it's him.


Thanks for posting this. I've been waiting for the chrono, but feared it might be a little too big for me (I thought the dial looked so much better with the chrono, though). Now I actually see some measurements on the GMT from Toppers and really love it. Think the white GMT is going to be my purchase! Now we wait a little more.


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## tmathes

Soh1982 said:


> Does anyone know when these models will be available. I pre ordered vhp chronograph from last year and still haven't received it. It just seems odd that longines has not fulfilled the orders for last year's models and now they are taking pre orders for this year's models???
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are no "last year's models" or "this year's models" for the chrono from my understanding. They never released the VHP chrono nor GMT to the market, they've only shown them off at trade shows.

I've pre-ordered from Topper before and Rob gave me general estimates of when the watch I pre-ordered would ship BUT he added a few caveats:

- The date could easily slip months since Swatch Group often slips dates. A good example was a particular Omega that didn't release for 18 months after intro at Basel. In my case though (a Longines limited edition last year) it shipped at the later end of the window he thought it would ship. Announcement of that model was January 2017, shown at Basel in March 2017, shipped in late September/early October 2017.

- Pre-orders help in giving the store a larger allotment of watches since he could show HQ he had customers ready to purchase. Again, no guarantee you'd get among the first batch of watches since even he didn't know how many he'd be allotted.

I don't remember Topper taking pre-orders for the chrono nor GMT versions of the watch last year, just the 3 hander.

The only thing you can do right now is check with your AD as to the status of your pre-order. Out of curiosity, did he/she not give you an estimate of when the chrono would ship?


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## tmathes

duplicate deleted


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## Soh1982

tmathes said:


> There are no "last year's models" or "this year's models" for the chrono from my understanding. They never released the VHP chrono nor GMT to the market, they've only shown them off at trade shows.
> 
> I've pre-ordered from Topper before and Rob gave me general estimates of when the watch I pre-ordered would ship BUT he added a few caveats:
> 
> - The date could easily slip months since Swatch Group often slips dates. A good example was a particular Omega that didn't release for 18 months after intro at Basel. In my case though (a Longines limited edition last year) it shipped at the later end of the window he thought it would ship. Announcement of that model was January 2017, shown at Basel in March 2017, shipped in late September/early October 2017.
> 
> - Pre-orders help in giving the store a larger allotment of watches since he could show HQ he had customers ready to purchase. Again, no guarantee you'd get among the first batch of watches since even he didn't know how many he'd be allotted.
> 
> I don't remember Topper taking pre-orders for the chrono nor GMT versions of the watch last year, just the 3 hander.
> 
> The only thing you can do right now is check with your AD as to the status of your pre-order. Out of curiosity, did he/she not give you an estimate of when the chrono would ship?


I didn't use topper, I used Jura. I was given an estimate of latter end of last year then start of this year and then May 2018. So yes I have had several estimates, lol. When I finally contacted them last month, they said now they don't have an estimate. Previous estimates were apparently given to them by Longines but now there is no estimate.
My rant was not about topper. I have dealt with them and they are great. My gripe is with Longines for introducing these models last year and the initial plan to release them at the end of 2017 but not doing that and then coming up with new models in 2018 with still no sign of them in the stores.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tmathes

Soh1982 said:


> I didn't use topper, I used Jura. I was given an estimate of latter end of last year then start of this year and then May 2018. So yes I have had several estimates, lol. When I finally contacted them last month, they said now they don't have an estimate. Previous estimates were apparently given to them by Longines but now there is no estimate.
> My rant was not about topper. I have dealt with them and they are great. My gripe is with Longines for introducing these models last year and the initial plan to release them at the end of 2017 but not doing that and then coming up with new models in 2018 with still no sign of them in the stores.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Typical Swatch Group practices. It's why I shy away from putting a deposit on any production product. I only put one down on that Longines last year since it was a limited edition, there was no fancy new movement so hitting release dates was easier than with an all-new design.

Any way to just get your $$ back? I personally would. Give it until next year and I'm betting the gray market will be full of these at steep discounts. I'm seeing a lot of Certinas on the gray market (Precidrive ones) at some pretty good prices, I'm expecting the same for these VHP models. I sometimes wish I'd waited instead of going the AD route with the two I bought. I could have gotten the two I own for not much more than the price I paid for one.


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## Soh1982

tmathes said:


> Typical Swatch Group practices. It's why I shy away from putting a deposit on any production product. I only put one down on that Longines last year since it was a limited edition, there was no fancy new movement so hitting release dates was easier than with an all-new design.
> 
> Any way to just get your $$ back? I personally would. Give it until next year and I'm betting the gray market will be full of these at steep discounts. I'm seeing a lot of Certinas on the gray market (Precidrive ones) at some pretty good prices, I'm expecting the same for these VHP models. I sometimes wish I'd waited instead of going the AD route with the two I bought. I could have gotten the two I own for not much more than the price I paid for one.


I don't know. I am so sick of it that I might just try to get my money back. It's just that I got a smoking deal. Got the chrono for the price of the 3 hander. Had a discount coupon for Jura. If I get my money back then the coupon goes to waste. 
But you are right, even with the discount I got, gray market price would still probably be better or at least as good.
I guess I will wait a couple of months and if I get nothing then I will ask them to give me my money back. I just hope it's as accurate as they are claiming it to be. Otherwise I would be really upset.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## johant

Well, I am seeing a rather disturbing trend ...

Granted, it has been unusually warm here last month, and I have worn the watch almost every day, but it seems to be running slower than expected when on the wrist.









Edit: SPY deviation estimate added (progressing over three measurement periods)


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## ronalddheld

https://deployant.com/new-release-two-limited-edition-longines-conquest-v-h-p/


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## abstruse1

This may be a silly question, but I'm interested in the VHP (3 hand) and don't own any 50m WR rated watches.

My question is, what water exposure can this watch resist? 50m? If so, swimming should be just fine, but it seems that these WR ratings can't be taken literally.

BTW, does it have a screw down crown?


----------



## ronalddheld

abstruse1 said:


> This may be a silly question, but I'm interested in the VHP (3 hand) and don't own any 50m WR rated watches.
> 
> My question is, what water exposure can this watch resist? 50m? If so, swimming should be just fine, but it seems that these WR ratings can't be taken literally.
> 
> BTW, does it have a screw down crown?


Have you done any searches in this thread?


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## gangrel

Man, double posting seems rampant. I get the "no speed posting" thing quite a bit.

Anyway...yeah, abstruse, there's a ton of discussion on WR over in Public. Or google something like "watch water resistance."


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## tmathes

ronalddheld said:


> https://deployant.com/new-release-two-limited-edition-longines-conquest-v-h-p/


Um, no thanks. I value my retinas and optic nerves.


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> Man, double posting seems rampant. I get the "no speed posting" thing quite a bit.
> 
> Anyway...yeah, abstruse, there's a ton of discussion on WR over in Public. Or google something like "watch water resistance."


Seems to happen if you reply to a post and click "Post Quick Reply". but not if you hit "Go Advanced". I think it started doing that junk about 2-3 weeks ago.


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## jthole

ronalddheld said:


> https://deployant.com/new-release-two-limited-edition-longines-conquest-v-h-p/


Let them focus on delivering the best quartz movements, and leave the bling bling to someone else.

Yes, I know the current quartz movements are made by ETA, and not by Longines themselves.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


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## ppaulusz

jthole said:


> ...Yes, I know the current quartz movements are made by ETA, and not by Longines themselves...


Since 1985 they have been made by ETA... so not only the current ones but all of them in the past 33 years.


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## tomchicago

I really like the vhp. If it had higher water resistance with still clean design lines I would get one. Minimum 10 bar. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## gviddy

tomchicago said:


> I really like the vhp. If it had higher water resistance with still clean design lines I would get one. Minimum 10 bar.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Agree. Even if you don't plan on swimming with it, 50m resistance is just a bit soft IMO.


----------



## matty1

DaveM said:


> I have just collected from watch-shop.
> Here is a picture of the inside :-
> ..No jewels
> ..Small battery. The case is quite thick, so you would have thought that they could have fitted a bigger battery to give the 10year-life of old VHP.
> ..No obvious adjustment-mechanism (? hole on edge just below the battery).
> The guy at the shop understood the adjustment-procedure and explained it almost as well as GMF. I think on the whole it is an improvement, on old VHP the stem was very stiff and sometimes hard to find position 2 (hour zone).
> The minute-adjust seems to be in steps of 10s. This granularity still makes it easier to accurately set the minutes hand, but since the seconds-hand hacks to 12oclock it would have been better if the minute hand adjusted to the exact minute in minute steps. This seems like a no-brainer, I wonder why they did not do it.
> I will see how good the timekeeping is !
> 
> View attachment 12724363


DaveM,

Just out of interest, is the space a plastic or metal one. is the writing just printed or pressed? thanks


----------



## johant

Here are some new data ... I have not worn the watch since mid June, but interestingly we had two heat waves since then (temperatures above 30 degrees).


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## ronalddheld

https://deployant.com/first-impressions-longines-conquest-v-h-p-a-technical-masterpiece/


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## MarkieB

According to the Longines website 50m is suitable for swimming and snorkelling so I assume they operate a system of rating the same as Omega. I'm going to be swimming in mine as that's what Longines says I can do.

Let's face it WR by depth is a pointless measure anyway as it's all based on static pressure. After all the deepest your wrist can get swimming (assuming you aren't sinking) is less than a meter so if depth was a true measure a 2m WR watch would be suitable for swimming.


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## jthole

MarkieB said:


> According to the Longines website 50m is suitable for swimming and snorkelling so I assume they operate a system of rating the same as Omega.


I completely agree. And that's what I said six months ago here indeed, *based on info directly from Longines*. Still doesn't make sense to put it prominently on the dial, but if people read this thread, there is a ton of info!


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## kris1942

I think the original VHP was a partnership between Longines and ETA


----------



## Alansmithee

Any sign of a release date for the GMT?


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## ronalddheld

Another review: https://deployant.com/review-one-smart-watch-longines-conquest-v-h-p/


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## tomchicago

Shame about the water resistance on this line.


----------



## MarkieB

tomchicago said:


> Shame about the water resistance on this line.


Longines states 50m is suitable for swimming and snorkelling. Done both in mine and no issues.

Can't understand why people don't do proper research rather than making assumptions based on their limited knowledge


----------



## thx67

Just been browsing a few threads on the VHP. I’ve just bought one and I’m really pleased with it so far. Good value and and interesting movement. However mine seems a few seconds out. Maybe 7 or 8. Does this mean a trip back to longines? Or is there a complete reset option by holding the crown down for a few seconds? Apologies if this is a stupid question. I’m from mechanical watch land.


----------



## chris01

thx67 said:


> Just been browsing a few threads on the VHP. I've just bought one and I'm really pleased with it so far. Good value and and interesting movement. However mine seems a few seconds out. Maybe 7 or 8. Does this mean a trip back to longines? Or is there a complete reset option by holding the crown down for a few seconds? Apologies if this is a stupid question. I'm from mechanical watch land.


Do you mean that it has lost 7-8 seconds since you bought it, or is it just not set correctly?

If the former then take it back. If the latter then just set it following the instructions. If you got one with only the huge, pointless, generic instruction book then you can download the details here:

https://www.longines.com/uploads/cu...s-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf


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## thx67

chris01 said:


> Do you mean that it has lost 7-8 seconds since you bought it, or is it just not set correctly?
> 
> If the former then take it back. If the latter then just set it following the instructions. If you got one with only the huge, pointless, generic instruction book then you can download the details here:
> 
> https://www.longines.com/uploads/cu...s-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf


Thanks for the info and apologies for the question. I guess I'm a tad confused about how the watch works. It sets itself but it's a few seconds out but it can be manually adjusted. What happens if I put it into low power mode? When I push the crown back does it set to my adjusted time or the default time? Im just curious really as I'm really pleased with the watch, I just do t get how it "remembers" the exact time. Thanks once again.


----------



## chris01

thx67 said:


> Thanks for the info and apologies for the question. I guess I'm a tad confused about how the watch works. It sets itself but it's a few seconds out but it can be manually adjusted. What happens if I put it into low power mode? When I push the crown back does it set to my adjusted time or the default time? Im just curious really as I'm really pleased with the watch, I just do t get how it "remembers" the exact time. Thanks once again.


I think you're attributing too much intelligence to this watch. Exactly like your mechanical watch(es), the only way it knows the correct time is if you set it correctly. It has no access to external time sources, unlike a radio-controlled watch. Once set, it makes its best effort to keep to that time. Its inherent accuracy will keep it somewhere around the claimed +/-5 seconds per year. When in power-saving mode it carries on ticking away inside so it can reset the hands to its internal time when you push the crown back in. The hands are only an indicator for the internal time. Pulling the crown disconnects the hands but doesn't affect the internal clock. I hope that explains it.


----------



## thx67

chris01 said:


> I think you're attributing too much intelligence to this watch. Exactly like your mechanical watch(es), the only way it knows the correct time is if you set it correctly. It has no access to external time sources, unlike a radio-controlled watch. Once set, it makes its best effort to keep to that time. Its inherent accuracy will keep it somewhere around the claimed +/-5 seconds per year. When in power-saving mode it carries on ticking away inside so it can reset the hands to its internal time when you push the crown back in. The hands are only an indicator for the internal time. Pulling the crown disconnects the hands but doesn't affect the internal clock. I hope that explains it.


I get that (I think). I didnt explain myself very well. I assume the watch has a pre programmed chip that keeps the calendar in synch and the time when it leaves the factory is set to swiss time before being put into power save mode? When I got the watch, hands were set to 12. Pressed in the crown and the hands whizzed to an hour or two off local time. I used the quick set to adjust the hour and that was it. I had the radio on and when the hour pips chimed the watch was about 10 seconds out. Maybe that was the bit I didnt get. I didnt quite see the point of the auto set mode if it wasnt quite right. I set it using the old fashioned way and its running spot on. I guess my question is now, does the watch now synch itself to this newer, manually adjusted time if I put it into power save for say a month? or will it revert to its "factory setting". I note from the manual that there is some form of auto correction at 3am. What is it using to correct the time? the factory setting or my new setting? The implication from the manual is if there is any drift from "the real time" it corrects itself but it was technically wrong out of the box! So I adjusted it. Does it remember my adjustment? if so, how? by just pushing the crown in? If so thats great. Just to clarify, im not complaining about the watch at all. I really like it and im intrigued by the whole high accuracy quartz thing. My OCD is greatly calmed by the seconds hand hitting every second. For the money its a fantastic watch. Longines are a very under estimated brand. I had a conquest auto a few years ago and that was cosc accurate. Thanks again for your input.


----------



## chris01

thx67 said:


> I get that (I think). I didnt explain myself very well. I assume the watch has a pre programmed chip that keeps the calendar in synch and the time when it leaves the factory is set to swiss time before being put into power save mode? When I got the watch, hands were set to 12. Pressed in the crown and the hands whizzed to an hour or two off local time. I used the quick set to adjust the hour and that was it. I had the radio on and when the hour pips chimed the watch was about 10 seconds out. Maybe that was the bit I didnt get. I didnt quite see the point of the auto set mode if it wasnt quite right. I set it using the old fashioned way and its running spot on. I guess my question is now, does the watch now synch itself to this newer, manually adjusted time if I put it into power save for say a month? or will it revert to its "factory setting". I note from the manual that there is some form of auto correction at 3am. What is it using to correct the time? the factory setting or my new setting? The implication from the manual is if there is any drift from "the real time" it corrects itself but it was technically wrong out of the box! So I adjusted it. Does it remember my adjustment? if so, how? by just pushing the crown in? If so thats great. Just to clarify, im not complaining about the watch at all. I really like it and im intrigued by the whole high accuracy quartz thing. My OCD is greatly calmed by the seconds hand hitting every second. For the money its a fantastic watch. Longines are a very under estimated brand. I had a conquest auto a few years ago and that was cosc accurate. Thanks again for your input.


You're still apparently concerned that the watch has some invisible 'force' that's taking care of time-keeping. 

This is just not the case. Once the watch has been set to the correct (or an arbitrarily wrong) date and time in the factory, it's responsible for just running as accurately as it can but has no way to correct itself, except for the tiny temperature-related adjustments that make it a VHP. If it leaves Switzerland 10 seconds slow it will stay that way until its own internal inaccuracy gradually makes that error worse or better. There is no way to have it display the correct time other than by you syncing it with an accurate clock. The date is a bit different, as if it's set incorrectly by the factory, or it gets out of step when the battery runs down then it can only be reset by Longines/Swatch Service. Meanwhile it just follows the pre-programmed algorithm that manages the perpetual calendar according to simple arithmetic.

The power saving feature is simply a battery saver that avoids unnecessary hand movement, while the electronics continues unaffected.

One other feature is the self-check which ensures that the hands are correctly aligned with the expected dial markings. It has no effect on the internal time-keeping.

The basics are that once it's set correctly you should never have to adjust it again until the accumulated natural error begins to annoy you. Apart from DST or time zone changes, you can relax and enjoy your new watch!

Edit: I should also mention that the occasional Leap Second adjustment may trigger your OCD and require a one-second re-hack. For many contributors on this forum this is a BIG issue.


----------



## Hans Moleman

> I get that (I think). I didnt explain myself very well. I assume the watch has a pre programmed chip that keeps the calendar in synch and the time when it leaves the factory is set to swiss time before being put into power save mode? When I got the watch, hands were set to 12. Pressed in the crown and the hands whizzed to an hour or two off local time. I used the quick set to adjust the hour and that was it. I had the radio on and when the hour pips chimed the watch was about 10 seconds out. Maybe that was the bit I didnt get. I didnt quite see the point of the auto set mode if it wasnt quite right. I set it using the old fashioned way and its running spot on. I guess my question is now, does the watch now synch itself to this newer, manually adjusted time if I put it into power save for say a month? or will it revert to its "factory setting". I note from the manual that there is some form of auto correction at 3am. What is it using to correct the time? the factory setting or my new setting? The implication from the manual is if there is any drift from "the real time" it corrects itself but it was technically wrong out of the box! So I adjusted it. Does it remember my adjustment? if so, how? by just pushing the crown in? If so thats great. Just to clarify, im not complaining about the watch at all. I really like it and im intrigued by the whole high accuracy quartz thing. My OCD is greatly calmed by the seconds hand hitting every second. For the money its a fantastic watch. Longines are a very under estimated brand. I had a conquest auto a few years ago and that was cosc accurate. Thanks again for your input.


I think you're confusing a watch with, for example, a thermometer.

A perfect thermometer you take out of the box, it interacts with its environment and then it displays the temperature. You don't need to do a thing.

A watch can't pick up the time from its environment. It needs to be set. Once set, it keeps track of time by counting quartz vibrations.

Your watch was set in the factory. And was, by the looks of it, 10 seconds out. Or was you radio 10 seconds out? Compare it with other time references, you'll be amazed.

No such thing as "factory setting" or inbuilt "real time".


----------



## chris01

Hans Moleman said:


> Your watch was set in the factory. And was, by the looks of it, 10 seconds out. Or was you radio 10 seconds out? Compare it with other time references, you'll be amazed.


A very good point. If you're listening to the Greenwich time signal on an FM radio, it will be very close indeed to the correct time. If your radio transmission comes via a digital medium - DAB radio, digital TV, etc. - it can be several seconds slow. There's no fix for that issue. There are several internet-based resources that will give a more precise time.


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## kapahoo

chris01 said:


> A very good point. If you're listening to the Greenwich time signal on an FM radio, it will be very close indeed to the correct time. If your radio transmission comes via a digital medium - DAB radio, digital TV, etc. - it can be several seconds slow. There's no fix for that issue. There are several internet-based resources that will give a more precise time.


Ten seconds is a bit too much though, isn't it?
Can't assume that this is a human "error"? Either at the dealer or from the last person who checked it in Switzerland?

Anyway...
It is six months in with my VHP. I've had a hot summer romance with a Seiko Alpinist so during the last three months I've only been wearing the VHP for about, say one third of the time. But it has indeed been a hot summer so temperature wise it may have been less affect than otherwise off the wrist.

Last time I made a real check, three months ago, I couldn't see any deviation at all. If I just try to look att the VHP and compare to a reference clock it is still hard to see if it has gone off in any direction. The stopwatch method gives that it has been running a little fast though. Not much but the average of my measurements is 0.3 seconds fast. That would still giva a very good year average and so far I am very happy with the watch.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## chris01

kapahoo said:


> Ten seconds is a bit too much though, isn't it?
> Can't assume that this is a human "error"? Either at the dealer or from the last person who checked it in Switzerland?


Of course. In the UK it's usually around 2 to 4 seconds. My point was really that digital broadcasting of otherwise accurate time signals is of no value for HAQ purposes.


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## thx67

chris01 said:


> You're still apparently concerned that the watch has some invisible 'force' that's taking care of time-keeping.
> 
> The basics are that once it's set correctly you should never have to adjust it again until the accumulated natural error begins to annoy you. Apart from DST or time zone changes, you can relax and enjoy your new watch!
> 
> Edit: I should also mention that the occasional Leap Second adjustment may trigger your OCD and require a one-second re-hack. For many contributors on this forum this is a BIG issue.


I appreciate the watch isnt powered by unicorn dust and can think for itself but its the auto set that threw me. For whatever reason, when I bought it, I pushed the crown in and set itself to the wrong time (about 10 seconds out according to FM radio and my radio controlled clock at home). I had to manually adjust it. Thats fair enough. I have to manually adjust my automatic watch now and then. If this auto set feature was not on the watch, I wouldn't have questioned it and set it to the correct time and off we go. Having kept an eye on it the past couple of days its now correct which goes back to my original question of does it remember (reset, recalibrated, call it whatever) my manually adjusted time once i press the crown in? there is a digital element to this watch as well as analogue so I was just curious to learn if there is a some sort of manual override of the factory setting. Again, not knocking the watch, the more I read up on it, the more impressed I am with the tech. Ive never looked at quartz watches until recently and assumed all quartz watches were highly accurate. Ive even been looking at the citizen (chronomaster?) what a piece of kit! Thanks again for all the responses.


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## thx67

MarkieB said:


> Longines states 50m is suitable for swimming and snorkelling. Done both in mine and no issues.
> 
> Can't understand why people don't do proper research rather than making assumptions based on their limited knowledge


You went swimming with your VHP? Youre a brave man. I know its rated to 50m but im used to screw down crowns and the thought of swimming without a reassuring crown check just freaks me out. A friend of mine jumped off a boat in the sea wearing an omega speedmaster and I nearly had kittens. Ive alway been curious as to how they would cover water ingress on a 50m watch.


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## chris01

thx67 said:


> I appreciate the watch isnt powered by unicorn dust and can think for itself but its the auto set that threw me. For whatever reason, when I bought it, I pushed the crown in and set itself to the wrong time (about 10 seconds out according to FM radio and my radio controlled clock at home). I had to manually adjust it. Thats fair enough. I have to manually adjust my automatic watch now and then. If this auto set feature was not on the watch, I wouldn't have questioned it and set it to the correct time and off we go. Having kept an eye on it the past couple of days its now correct which goes back to my original question of does it remember (reset, recalibrated, call it whatever) my manually adjusted time once i press the crown in? there is a digital element to this watch as well as analogue so I was just curious to learn if there is a some sort of manual override of the factory setting. Again, not knocking the watch, the more I read up on it, the more impressed I am with the tech. Ive never looked at quartz watches until recently and assumed all quartz watches were highly accurate. Ive even been looking at the citizen (chronomaster?) what a piece of kit! Thanks again for all the responses.


OK, this is my final comment. There is no "auto set" of any sort on this watch. It never sets itself to any external or internal time. All that happens is that the internal (dumb but pretty consistent) digital clock keeps ticking at a steady rate, unless and until the user chooses to reset it via the analogue interface. When the hands stop moving (power-saving) they just sit there waiting for you to reconnect them to the internal clock. The <ONLY> time the watch ever knows is that one being constantly maintained by the internal clock. Any change/reset to that clock will only occur if you manipulate the hands according to the printed instructions.


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## kapahoo

thx67 >> Longines states it is suitable for swimming and the answer to your question is ”yes, it will remember the time you set ot to”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tomchicago

5 bar water resistance is barely sufficient for swimming. Longines should really bring it up to 10 bar it wouldn't be a big project. It's a great watch but to me the 5 bar wr is a tragic flaw. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Hans Moleman

chris01 said:


> OK, this is my final comment. There is no "auto set" of any sort on this watch. It never sets itself to any external or internal time. All that happens is that the internal (dumb but pretty consistent) digital clock keeps ticking at a steady rate, unless and until the user chooses to reset it via the analogue interface. When the hands stop moving (power-saving) they just sit there waiting for you to reconnect them to the internal clock. The <ONLY> time the watch ever knows is that one being constantly maintained by the internal clock. Any change/reset to that clock will only occur if you manipulate the hands according to the printed instructions.


A sleeping computer is at least blinking. 
How is one to know that a VHP sleeps?

I think that a lot of people are having a few disappointed minutes when they find that the watch has run out of battery overnight. Somehow exactly at 00:00.


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## thx67

Hans Moleman said:


> A sleeping computer is at least blinking.
> How is one to know that a VHP sleeps?
> 
> I think that a lot of people are having a few disappointed minutes when they find that the watch has run out of battery overnight. Somehow exactly at 00:00.


Push the crown 800 times which recharges it. Leave it an hour, then press "auto set", the aerial pops up, it goes online and you're good to go. I think.


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## MarkieB

thx67 said:


> You went swimming with your VHP? Youre a brave man. I know its rated to 50m but im used to screw down crowns and the thought of swimming without a reassuring crown check just freaks me out. A friend of mine jumped off a boat in the sea wearing an omega speedmaster and I nearly had kittens. Ive alway been curious as to how they would cover water ingress on a 50m watch.


All a screw down crown does is stop it getting accidentally pulled out, it doesn't offer any further protection. I have a Luminox 200m,Seiko Pressage 100m & Sunnto 100m all without screw crowns and I've never had an issue with any of them.

Jumping off a boat, now that's dangerous...cold water shock will kill you quicker than water ingress will kill your watch.....


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## Tom-HK

More information on the GMT version:

https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/37197/click


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## ronalddheld

Tom-HK said:


> More information on the GMT version:
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/37197/click


Beat me to it, Tom. Anyone thinks it is worth buying?


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## ronalddheld

Tom-HK said:


> More information on the GMT version:
> 
> https://api.watchville.co/v2/posts/37197/click


Beat me to it, Tom. Anyone thinks it is worth buying?


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## Tom-HK

ronalddheld said:


> Beat me to it, Tom. Anyone thinks it is worth buying?


Vs, say, a GS GMT? My only HAQ GMT is an 8F56, so I have been thinking about something a bit more accurate / modern for travelling. That being said, a good incarnation of an 8F56 is still pretty hard to beat, features-wise. If only the VHP had an easily adjustable rate. The GS wins in that regard but I am not loving the overall offering from GS at the moment.

Honestly, nothing recently announced has come close to persuading me to stop saving up for whatever a cal. 0100 may eventually look like.


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## tmathes

Are any of the non-3 handers available to customers, aka the chrono and the GMT?

Longines introduced the chrono March 2017 with the 3 hander but best I can tell it still isn't available for sale, much less the GMT.


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## ronalddheld

My HAQ dollars are waiting for the Caliber 0100 watches


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## tomchicago

What are these?


ronalddheld said:


> My HAQ dollars are waiting for the Caliber 0100 watches


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## ronalddheld

tomchicago said:


> What are these?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


They do not exist yet. We assume there will be wristwatches based on Citizen caliber 0100 in 2019.


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## ronalddheld

tomchicago said:


> What are these?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


They do not exist yet. We assume there will be wristwatches based on Citizen caliber 0100 in 2019.


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## Michael Weare

*Longines Unveils Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting Watch In Style*










This weekend Watchuseek was honored to be invited as one of only 3 US media outlets to attend the global launch of the Longines Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting watch.

Just for good measure, the thrilling Longines Global Champions Tour of Rome show jumping event was served up the day prior to the launch under the sizzling September sun in the eternal city. But for Watchuseek readers it's quite possibly the watch rather than the horses which is more likely to be of interest, so let's talk about that.

*LONGINES CONQUEST V.H.P. GMT FLASH SETTING*










_09/09/18: Longines CEO Walter von Kanel launches the Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting watch in Rome










Lanterna di Fuksas

_In the undeniably 'flash setting' of the glass and steel Lanterna di Fuksas event hall, Longines unveiled their latest Conquest V.H.P. model last night.

Four years in development, Longines builds on its long and impressive track record in the field of quartz technology with the Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting watch; an ingenious mix of high precision quartz - accurate to +/- 5 seconds a year - elegant attitude and a brilliantly simple 'not connected' way to set home time and overseas time via an app.
As anyone who has owned a smartwatch will know, the battery time can be woefully short, and fiddling around trying to connect it to Bluetooth can, especially when traveling, be nothing short of exasperating._
*
*_*PERPETUAL CALENDAR GOOD TILL 2399*_*










*
_The Conquest V.H.P. L287.2 (ETA E56.411) movement features a Gear Position Detection (GPD) system that resets the hands after an impact or magnetic field exposure, a smart crown, and a very long battery life with a perpetual calendar that extends to 2399, nudging ever closer to the Zager and Evans one hit wonder '2525'.

*EASY FLASH SETTING FUNCTION*_*










* _As with all GMT watches the Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting watch features a second time zone, the difference is, this is operated via a light-driven management system, known as Flash Setting. With the flash setting function, you simply download the Longines app to your smartphone (it requires no external connection, such as WiFi or Bluetooth) then the information recorded in the app is transmitted via a series of rapid light sequences emitted by the smartphone's flash to a tiny opening on the watch dial, concealed in the number 12.

*ADJUST BY APP OR BY HAND*_*










*_This is really nothing more than high-speed Morse code instructing the watch to change the time to your desired destination without using the crown. But if you prefer to do things the old school way without the use of a fancy app, you can set the watch manually using the crown and still enjoy all the high precision the watch offers. The watch also has a swap function which allows you to interchange between home time and travel time on the display simply by applying pressure to the crown._*









*_It's a clever watch rather than a smartwatch, made all the cleverer because it does not rely on any technology such as Bluetooth or your Android/Apple device to make the magic happen._*










*_The watches come in stainless steel or black PVD in 41mm or 43mm dials. As an affordable and supremely accurate GMT watch, this new piece from Longines is certainly worthy of serious attention. While an automatic or mechanical movement is great for a dress watch, the precision and ease of use of the Conquest V.H.P. GMT Flash Setting are perfect for overseas travel, when tight timekeeping is always a prime concern.

*HOW MUCH?*

The stainless-steel Conquest V.H.P. GMT models will retail for* $1,350* (white, blue, black dial)

The stainless-steel Conquest V.H.P. GMT models in PVD will retail for *$1,750* (blue, black dial w/black PVD)

*SPECIFICATIONS*_*










* 
Calibre: Quartz movement L287.2 (ETA E56.411)

Functions: Hours, minutes, seconds, date aperture at 3 o'clock (perpetual calendar) and second __timezone "Flash Setting": light-driven management system

Cases: Round, stainless steel or black PVD, Ø41.00mm or Ø43.00mm

Sapphire crystal with a multi-layered anti-reflective coating

Dials: Black, silvered, blue or carbon, with 2 applied Arabic numerals and 10 applied bar indexes with Super-Luminova V.H.P. inscription in red "Home Time" and "Travel Time" symbols at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock in redFlash Setting photo-detector concealed in the number 1 at 12 o'clock
_*
* _
Hands: Black

Water resistance: 50 meters

Bracelet/Strap: Stainless steel or black PVD with triple safety folding clasp and push-piece opening mechanism

Black or blue rubber with double safety folding clasp and push-piece opening mechanism  *

*_Visit Longines


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## tmathes

The VHP chronograph, introduced 18 months ago, it still isn't for sale and they introduce yet another model in the VHP line that's unavailable for who knows how long?

I don't get it.


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## chris01

tmathes said:


> The VHP chronograph, introduced 18 months ago, it still isn't for sale and they introduce yet another model in the VHP line that's unavailable for who knows how long?
> 
> I don't get it.


Pretty standard for Longines. My one consolation about the predictable unavailability of the GMT, which is in principle a very attractive watch, is that it's likely to be just as far out of spec as the 3-hand VHP, and therefore I won't be buying one.


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## chris01

Just an observation about the three pictures of the blue, white and carbon dials in the first post: in each case the GMT hand is out of sync with the local hour hand.

The blue dial shows 10:09 local, while the GMT hand is at some minutes *before *09.
The white and carbon dials show 8:22 local, while the GMT hand is at some minutes *before *03.

Probably not actual watches (I hope).


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## ronalddheld

Pass again.


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## tmathes

ronalddheld said:


> Pass again.


This one will be made easier to pass up since you can't buy it anytime soon. Maybe the Citizen super-duper watch will show up first:-d

Omega does kind of thing routinely, I don't know if it's a corporate (Swatch) thing or just common in the watch industry. I know in other businesses, like technology and auto markets for example, doing this kind of intro and then crickets for nearly 2 yrs. ends up loosing you customers in the end. By the time your product hits the market everyone's forgotten about it.


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## hughesyn

*Longines VHP GMT Flash*

Sorry if this has already been on 9f.

Ablogtowatch review


I like this a lot more than a regular VHP because it ditches the sub-second markers.


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## gaijin

*Re: Longines VHP GMT Flash*

As has been pointed out before, I am perplexed that in all photos of this watch - both stock photos from Longines and reviewers' pics - the GMT hand is always pointing incorrectly behind (slower) where it should on the dial.

At first I chalked this up to parallax error, or photoshop error in stock photos; but it is consistent in all extant photos.

I know the watch is not officially released yet, but I am still surprised that such a glaring error in product presentation has existed this far into the product announcement cycle - does not bode well for actual release examples.

HTH


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## nodnar

The literature notes that travel time is adjustable in 15 minute increments from home time. As misguided as this might be, it appears they are utilizing this in the publicity photos. 

Edit: therefore the GMT hand could “look off” if the photos are deliberately showing the ability to track time zones 15, 30 or 45 minutes off the hour. 

Just my guess, of course. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hans Moleman

*Re: Longines VHP GMT Flash*



nodnar said:


> The literature notes that travel time is adjustable in 15 minute increments from home time. As misguided as this might be, it appears they are utilizing this in the publicity photos.
> 
> Just my guess, of course.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The resolution of the GMT hand is only 15 minutes.









Source


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## gaijin

nodnar said:


> The literature notes that travel time is adjustable in 15 minute increments from home time. As misguided as this might be, it appears they are utilizing this in the publicity photos.
> 
> Edit: therefore the GMT hand could "look off" if the photos are deliberately showing the ability to track time zones 15, 30 or 45 minutes off the hour.
> 
> Just my guess, of course.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's a very clever guess. I agree with you that, if true, it is misguided in that it gives the impression of an imprecise GMT hand time indication.

My guess is we'll have to wait until production versions are in users' hands to see what the reality is.


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## cheznous

Having owned the VHP for a month now I have to say I am impressed by its accuracy. Still spot on measured against GPS and NTP time signal.
Amongst other watches I own in terms of accuracy I have the Junghans Meister Mega and the Morgenwerk M2-X and I seem to be favouring the Longines as it does not need outside help to remain accurate.
Why that should matter to me I do not know. 
I had looked to get a Grand Seiko but model choice in the UK is not great and concern over warranty over Japanese imports pushed me to the Longines. Early days but so far I am impresses with finish and accuracy and the fact the second and minute hands do line up (usually).


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## ppaulusz

cheznous said:


> ...Amongst other watches I own in terms of accuracy I have the Junghans Meister Mega and the Morgenwerk M2-X and I seem to be favouring the Longines as it does not need outside help to remain accurate...


I'm not familiar with the Junghans Meister Mega so I won't comment on them but I am familiar with the Morgenwerk Satellite Precision watches (I own two of them: M1-3 and M3-1) and I can tell you that they do not need more outside help to remain accurate than your Longines VHP! The Morgenwerks are simply more sophisticated, that is all! They are most importantly user calibrate-able for accuracy unlike your VHP (my older VHP watches are user calibrate-able models but not as effortlessly as the Morgenwerks as a Morgenwerk self-calibrates itself). Let's not confuse self-calibration with merely automatic time-correction as per RF-watches/clocks and simple GPS watches/clocks!
When you set up any "normal" watch including your VHP for the exact time, you rely on a reliable outside(!) time-source and do it manually(!) while any RF or GPS watch does it by receiving info from longwave RF signals if available(!) at that particular geographic location in case of the RF watches or receiving satellite signals (available everywhere) in case of the GPS watches.
Every 32kHz quartz watch even with the best thermocompensation-algorithm(!) would benefit from calibration that would tailor-made the accuracy of the watch for the environment and user habits. Some thermocompensated watches had offered analogue calibration by trimmer (unfortunately the trimmer itself can be an accuracy-hazard so while it helps in most cases it can be a disadvantage in certain cases) and some had offered digital calibration terminal (like for example the old VHP watches and the Seiko 9F movements among others mainly ETA movements). The digital calibration terminals do not have any disadvantage only advantage, they are the most useful aid beside thermocompensation itself to provide accurate running for the timepieces. However when calibration is an option it is usually a manual process and could be very fiddly... and here comes the Morgenwerk that offers self-calibration, a superb feature!
My bottom line is: the Morgenwerk needs no more external help to maintain accuracy than a current VHP! Both might be very accurate/precise out of box and both can be a little bit(!) less accurate out of box. In the latter case the Morgenwerk offers a simple solution while the current VHP can't offer anything just a visit to the service center and most probably a new movement or a new watch if its precision is out of the yearly 5 seconds limit(!). The more you think about it, it is obvious if your goal is the outmost accuracy/precision (forget aesthetics and other considerations - we are in the HAQ forum after all) then the Morgenwerk is extremely hard to beat and it is no more heavily relying on external help than your VHP but it uses it more elegantly and with very little effort from the user compared to any watch.


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## cheznous

ppaulusz said:


> I'm not familiar with the Junghans Meister Mega so I won't comment on them but I am familiar with the Morgenwerk Satellite Precision watches (I own two of them: M1-3 and M3-1) and I can tell you that they do not need more outside help to remain accurate than your Longines VHP! The Morgenwerks are simply more sophisticated, that is all! They are most importantly user calibrate-able for accuracy unlike your VHP (my older VHP watches are user calibrate-able models but not as effortlessly as the Morgenwerks as a Morgenwerk self-calibrates itself). Let's not confuse self-calibration with merely automatic time-correction as per RF-watches/clocks and simple GPS watches/clocks!
> .


I hear what you say and I do like the Morgenwerks but assuming you did not take a GPS signal say 7 times per year then would it be as good at the Longines at 5 seconds per year. I do find also that the hands on the Morgenwerk seem to need calibrating occasionally so I sort of go of it a bit at times. I accept this may be my watch and not general and it is very small increments. I believe without the automatic time update the Junghans claims around 8 seconds per year but not convinced it is quite that good to be honest.


----------



## ppaulusz

cheznous said:


> ...assuming you did not take a GPS signal say 7 times per year then would it be as good at the Longines at 5 seconds per year...


Out of the box the Morgenwerk could be as accurate/precise as the current Longines VHP. Both uses thermocompensation to achieve accuracy. Out of the box the Morgenwerk even could be more accurate than the current Longines VHP or the Morgenwerk can be less accurate than the Longines VHP out of the box. Anything can happen. Taking the GPS signal with the Morgernwerk is not a burden but rather a well planned feature! As a matter of fact you do not need to take the GPS signal 7 times per year to achieve better accuracy performance with the Morgenwerk than with the VHP provided you subjects both watches to identical circumstances/environments. 
The Morgenwerk is the answer for an old dream of this forum members (well, then members... back all those years ago... that is... when we really discussed accuracy/precision issues in this forum almost exclusively): we always wanted easily executable calibration options on top of our wish list, not to mention self-calibration!
I have a feeling that for some mysterious reasons there is still confusion of self-resetting the time (like an RF watch) and self-calibration (like the Morgenwerk). One is a convenient way to reset the time of an ordinary watch, the other is the pinnacle of high-accuracy quartz technology!


----------



## Independent George

tomchicago said:


> 5 bar water resistance is barely sufficient for swimming. Longines should really bring it up to 10 bar it wouldn't be a big project. It's a great watch but to me the 5 bar wr is a tragic flaw.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


I am going to disagree. I feel that 5 bar is enough for swimming and showering. Perhaps not for swimming the Channel or skin diving, but enough for sitting in a Vegas Pool or general swimming. I swam 2000 meters a day for an entire year wearing a 3 bar watch, and it was fine. Yes, 10 bar would be great, and if Orient can sell 10 bar Bambinos, then a 10 bar for a Longines should not be that difficult. But saying 5 bar is a tragic flaw is a bit of an exaggeration.


----------



## jthole

Given that Longines have officially stated that their 5 bar water resistant watches are suitable for swimming and snorkeling, that debate is getting ridiculous by now. Some people just like to complain??

In the meantime, my VHP is cruising towards a 2.5 SPY deviation. I can't complain.

With all the moaning about water resistance and whatnot, I am not even sure if anyone in this topic would still be interested in the more detailed time measurement graphs ...

To be fair, the way this topic is progressing, I am out.


----------



## cheznous

I for one am very happy with my VHP and would like to see more reporting on the deviation or hopefully lack of it.
With regards the 5 bar I care not a jot as long as I can wear it in the bath.


----------



## Hans Moleman

cheznous said:


> ... and would like to see more reporting on the deviation or hopefully lack of it.
> ...


Same here. I hope you reconsider. I'd love to know what actual accuracy is achieved by the VHP. 
And your measurements in that heatwave were priceless.


----------



## wbird

ppaulusz said:


> Out of the box the Morgenwerk could be as accurate/precise as the current Longines VHP. Both uses thermocompensation to achieve accuracy. Out of the box the Morgenwerk even could be more accurate than the current Longines VHP or the Morgenwerk can be less accurate than the Longines VHP out of the box. Anything can happen. Taking the GPS signal with the Morgernwerk is not a burden but rather a well planned feature! As a matter of fact you do not need to take the GPS signal 7 times per year to achieve better accuracy performance with the Morgenwerk than with the VHP provided you subjects both watches to identical circumstances/environments.
> The Morgenwerk is the answer for an old dream of this forum members (well, then members... back all those years ago... that is... when we really discussed accuracy/precision issues in this forum almost exclusively): we always wanted easily executable calibration options on top of our wish list, not to mention self-calibration!
> I have a feeling that for some mysterious reasons there is still confusion of self-resetting the time (like an RF watch) and self-calibration (like the Morgenwerk). One is a convenient way to reset the time of an ordinary watch, the other is the pinnacle of high-accuracy quartz technology!


I agree with you "Anything can happen," the Morgenwerk TC can be every bit as good as the Longines, just haven't seen any data to support that claim. Likewise the Morgenwerk may be able to achieve 5 spy accuracy after a year of self calibration but again haven't seen any data to support that it can, or that the self calibration does indeed work. Unfortunately it seems the Morgenwerk watches have run into problems prior to completing a year of self calibration or had failures during the following year so couldn't answer how well they perform.

I also agree that the ability to precisely set the watch using the gps signal is a great feature. Longines seems to have incorporated this into the new GMT model albeit doing it in a different manner.

It does appear that there are a few of those VHP's meeting the 5 spy specification.


----------



## wbird

jthole said:


> Given that Longines have officially stated that their 5 bar water resistant watches are suitable for swimming and snorkeling, that debate is getting ridiculous by now. Some people just like to complain??
> 
> In the meantime, my VHP is cruising towards a 2.5 SPY deviation. I can't complain.
> 
> With all the moaning about water resistance and whatnot, I am not even sure if anyone in this topic would still be interested in the more detailed time measurement graphs ...
> 
> To be fair, the way this topic is progressing, I am out.


Not so much as a complaint, as disappointed. I don't doubt out of the box I could swim with it, but how about in a year or two. I would prefer a little more margin of error, and a little attention to the other details in my "Very High Performance" sport watch. With a 10 bar watch pretty confident it will last till I have to do a battery change, 5 bar not so much.

Nice to see the accuracy is exceptional and meeting specs. Personally not really interested in a graph or table unless it going to provide some additional meaningful info. Doubt if you're seeing any wild swings in accuracy or big changes when worn or unworn.


----------



## ppaulusz

wbird said:


> I agree with you "Anything can happen," the Morgenwerk TC can be every bit as good as the Longines, just haven't seen any data to support that claim. Likewise the Morgenwerk may be able to achieve 5 spy accuracy after a year of self calibration but again haven't seen any data to support that it can, or that the self calibration does indeed work. Unfortunately it seems the Morgenwerk watches have run into problems prior to completing a year of self calibration or had failures during the following year so couldn't answer how well they perform...


I've never heard that a faulty Morgenwerk was not serviced by the manufacturer. A non-faulty one is destined to be extremely accurate as the self-calibration indeed is working and after a few months (after a few self-calibration has taken place) the watch performs to its factory specification that is much tighter(!) than 5 seconds per year. The Morgenwerks are limited edition watches so some issues might be present with a few samples but these problems are promptly fixed by the manufacturer. As I mentioned earlier, I have two Morgenwerks (M1-3 and M3-1) and my Brother has an M1-1 and we are extremely happy with the performances of the three timepieces. They do work/perform as promised, I guess, we can't ask more than that and I wish, I could have said the same about all of my watches of past and present...


----------



## tomchicago

The should get this up to 10bar minimum.


----------



## wbird

ppaulusz said:


> I've never heard that a faulty Morgenwerk was not serviced by the manufacturer. A non-faulty one is destined to be extremely accurate as the self-calibration indeed is working and after a few months (after a few self-calibration has taken place) the watch performs to its factory specification that is much tighter(!) than 5 seconds per year. The Morgenwerks are limited edition watches so some issues might be present with a few samples but these problems are promptly fixed by the manufacturer. As I mentioned earlier, I have two Morgenwerks (M1-3 and M3-1) and my Brother has an M1-1 and we are extremely happy with the performances of the three timepieces. They do work/perform as promised, I guess, we can't ask more than that and I wish, I could have said the same about all of my watches of past and present...


All good, post your results over on the Morgernwerk thread. You'll be the first to post 6 or 12 month sync free results. If you have a TC curve better yet. All will be a nice addition to that thread since accuracy hasn't been discussed there in nearly a year and a half.


----------



## ppaulusz

wbird said:


> All good, post your results over on the Morgernwerk thread. You'll be the first to post 6 or 12 month sync free results. If you have a TC curve better yet. All will be a nice addition to that thread since accuracy hasn't been discussed there in nearly a year and a half.


Thanks for finding me programs/activities to fill my spare time... Perhaps you should really read thoroughly the Morgenwerk thread then we can go further. How about that for a start?!


----------



## cheznous

One thing that puzzles me about the VHP is that if a modestly priced watch like the Longines can achieve 5 spy then why do not all other manufacturers follow suite with their Quartz range.
The Longines so far has exceeded my expectations and I tend to favour it over my IWC Portuguese which cost 15 times as much albeit an automatic mechanical.
I know my Junghans would not achieve the accuracy without the daily sync and though possibly the Morgenwerk may I am not convinced it would without 7 or 8 GPS syncs. Of course it would then give
about 0.75 seconds a year but assuming 7 GPS syncs does should mean the same ballpark of 5 SPY.
I am not dissing the Morgenwerk, it is a cool watch ( I have the M2-X) but the Longines is rather special for the price.
I paid 621 pounds in UK as most jewellers will give you 10 per cent off retail you ask nicely.


----------



## wbird

ppaulusz said:


> Thanks for finding me programs/activities to fill my spare time... Perhaps you should really read thoroughly the Morgenwerk thread then we can go further. How about that for a start?!


Again good advice and fortunately I have been following the MW thread for a few years. That's why I suggested you post your results there. Specifically in post #1030 on May 15 2017 on that thread, you mentioned that your brother is no longer syncing his watch and you completed your 3rd sync of seven.

Assuming 45 days between syncs, you would have completed the 7th sync around November of 2017.

Based on this and the posts here about the accuracy of your families MW watches I inferred that you had the data. I certainly wouldn't ask you to do any additional work, if you have the data great, like I said it would be a great addition to that thread.

Not sure how much further we should take this tangent on this thread after all this thread is about the VHP.


----------



## ronalddheld

Perhaps the MW posts will be moved into that thread.


----------



## tomchicago

cheznous that's the magic of high accuracy quartz movements. I've all but lost interest in my mechanicals. One good bang on a door jamb and off to service it goes for 2 months and $600usd.


----------



## wbird

tomchicago said:


> cheznous that's the magic of high accuracy quartz movements. I've all but lost interest in my mechanicals. One good bang on a door jamb and off to service it goes for 2 months and $600usd.


Pretty sure that a hit big enough to damage my mechanical pieces will probably also take out my HAQ pieces, and a VHP. Both will be gone for a couple of months, but the HAQ watch might be cheaper to repair.


----------



## dicioccio

Hello everybody, I would like to know if there are reports of the accuracy of these VHP. I also would like to know how their movements are related to the ones produced by ETA.


----------



## chris01

dicioccio said:


> Hello everybody, I would like to know if there are reports of the accuracy of these VHP. I also would like to know how their movements are related to the ones produced by ETA.


If you read through this thread you'll find many and varied answers to your question about accuracy. And yes, these movements are produced by ETA, presumably in collaboration with Longines, and will quite likely be generally available (as far as that applies to Swatch movements) in the future. They may be based on the current PreciDrive technology, but there's no official info on that.


----------



## cheznous

dicioccio said:


> Hello everybody, I would like to know if there are reports of the accuracy of these VHP. I also would like to know how their movements are related to the ones produced by ETA.


I have had mine a month now and it is still accurate to the second. I remain amazed how good the VHP is. I have a Certina DS Precidrive but over the same period it has gained slightly. I do not regret my purchase one bit.


----------



## dicioccio

chris01 said:


> If you read through this thread you'll find many and varied answers to your question about accuracy. And yes, these movements are produced by ETA, presumably in collaboration with Longines, and will quite likely be generally available (as far as that applies to Swatch movements) in the future. They may be based on the current PreciDrive technology, but there's no official info on that.


Hello chris, I know the accuracy is claimed up to 5 spy but I've seen no accuracy report based on a long run. And the only things written here and there are that they "seem" to be pretty accurate but, again, not yet any "real proof".

Of course I already suspected the movements are from ETA and also based on the Precidrive technology so the obvious question is: why are the ones on the VHP performing so much better than the ones on the Certina ? I don't see any practical reason...


----------



## chris01

dicioccio said:


> Hello chris, I know the accuracy is claimed up to 5 spy but I've seen no accuracy report based on a long run. And the only things written here and there are that they "seem" to be pretty accurate but, again, not yet any "real proof".
> 
> Of course I already suspected the movements are from ETA and also based on the Precidrive technology so the obvious question is: why are the ones on the VHP performing so much better than the ones on the Certina ? I don't see any practical reason...


Very good question. My experiments with two VHPs (described in this thread) show them to be somewhat less accurate than all my other (old) VHPs. Of course nobody has yet reported on a full year's test but for me my results were good enough to reject both watches. My only PreciDrive watch (DS-2 chrono) is worse than the old VHPs, and, like the new VHPs, cannot be regulated by me. As for the claimed accuracy improvement, this is long overdue, as VHPs of 30 years ago were just as good as today's watches. What have they been working on since then?


----------



## dicioccio

Yes, very very good point... It seems that the old VHP have everything we would in a modern HAQ (TC, PC, IAHH and user-trimmable) so what kind of improvements have been done during these 30 years ? What's worse is that they try to sell us nowadays watches as if no one has memories of the past. As for me, the only thing I don't like of the old VHP is the styling but, apart of this, everything is perfect, especially the small size. Bah, I'm very disappointed...


----------



## DaveM

dicioccio said:


> Yes, very very good point... It seems that the old VHP have everything we would in a modern HAQ (TC, PC, IAHH and user-trimmable) so what kind of improvements have been done during these 30 years ? What's worse is that they try to sell us nowadays watches as if no one has memories of the past. As for me, the only thing I don't like of the old VHP is the styling but, apart of this, everything is perfect, especially the small size. Bah, I'm very disappointed...


Also in favour of the old VHP :-
10 year lithium battery
Jewelled movement
Resetable perpetual calendar..


----------



## ppaulusz

dicioccio said:


> ... the only thing I don't like of the old VHP is the styling...


Apart from the Conquest models (I prefer those ones) there was the Flagship VHP Perpetual Calendar as well with a different styling (you might prefer that one):


----------



## chris01

ppaulusz said:


> Apart from the Conquest models (I prefer those ones) there was the Flagship VHP Perpetual Calendar as well with a different styling (you might prefer that one):


An excellent alternative to the Conquests - much nicer bracelet or a strap if required, slimmer, and I believe significantly cheaper (not sure of this). Downsides are no lume, silver hands tend to vanish on a white dial, and 3 BAR WR (clip-on back) is really a bit feeble. Also, not easy to find used. Mine is consistently my most accurate HAQ in annual tests.


----------



## dicioccio

As I said, unfortunately I dislike everything about the style of the old VHPs: the dial, the hands, the bezel, the crown, the case, the bracelet, the lack of lume... So sad !!!


----------



## ppaulusz

chris01 said:


> An excellent alternative to the Conquests - much nicer bracelet or a strap if required, slimmer, and I believe significantly cheaper (not sure of this). Downsides are no lume, silver hands tend to vanish on a white dial, and 3 BAR WR (clip-on back) is really a bit feeble. Also, not easy to find used. Mine is consistently my most accurate HAQ in annual tests.


As I mentioned earlier, I do prefer the style of the Conquest (especially the bicolor models).
You are right, the Flagship was significantly cheaper.
The 100m WR Conquest VHP Perpetual Calendar and the Flagship VHP are both 9mm slim as far as I can remember (I had both but sold later the Flagship). The 200M WR Conquest is about 12mm thick but feels much less on the wrist, in my opinion.


----------



## Markhp

chris01 said:


> Very good question. My experiments with two VHPs (described in this thread) show them to be somewhat less accurate than all my other (old) VHPs. Of course nobody has yet reported on a full year's test but for me my results were good enough to reject both watches. My only PreciDrive watch (DS-2 chrono) is worse than the old VHPs, and, like the new VHPs, cannot be regulated by me. As for the claimed accuracy improvement, this is long overdue, as VHPs of 30 years ago were just as good as today's watches. What have they been working on since then?


Hello,
I received my Conquest VHP (41mm, silver dial 3 hand) on Christmas 2017. It was purchased directly from Longines. I fired her up & it has run continuously since. The watch was synced with my stand alone digital atomic clock.
I've made 3 manual hourly time changes & wear it in a rotation ~25% of the month.
So far, it has gained +1 second at the end of every three months, almost on que. As of today, it is running +4 seconds. If it remains consistent I'd expect it to be running +5 seconds right around this Christmas.

The watch meets all my expectations. The quick set & perpetual calendar functions are appreciated & really cool.
the hands align with the markers perfectly & I think it is a very good looking piece. Wish the lume was stronger.
overall, it is a quartz watch I am proud to own.


----------



## ronalddheld

Miguel said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> Here are some results after 23 days since the repair, for my DS-2 Chrono Titanium. For now, no wear whatsoever. Seems promising:
> 
> View attachment 13595441
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miguel.


Maybe posted in an incorrect thread?
Cleanup done.


----------



## PetWatch

I am considering one of these watches, primary reason being 5 SPY. I have browsed and searched through this long thread, would appreciate if someone who has read through it all can provide an estimate, in percentage terms, of getting a watch that falls within 5 SPY based on owners reports.

I realize reported time periods and methods will vary and non have been tested over a long period of time. I am willing to take a chance on this if the odds of getting 5 SPY as reported on here are sufficiently good.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## chris01

PetWatch said:


> I am considering one of these watches, primary reason being 5 SPY. I have browsed and searched through this long thread, would appreciate if someone who has read through it all can provide an estimate, in percentage terms, of getting a watch that falls within 5 SPY based on owners reports.
> 
> I realize reported time periods and methods will vary and non have been tested over a long period of time. I am willing to take a chance on this if the odds of getting 5 SPY as reported on here are sufficiently good.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I think you are being multiply optimistic here. First, you are expecting someone else to do the 'hard work' of reading an often interesting thread - you would probably learn a lot of useful stuff by doing it yourself. Then you expect an objective assessment of a consistently subjective phenomenon. The claimed/expected/hoped for/perceived/actual performance of this watch (or almost any other) is so dependent on the reporter's environment, test method, and competence, all coloured by their hopes and prejudices, that expecting to calculate a meaningful percentage of anything is just delusional. Then how do you apply any statistical evaluation to the instance of a single watch? I assume you're not intending to buy 10. My own experience of two was enough to persuade me to give up, but others will feel quite differently.


----------



## PetWatch

chris01 said:


> I think you are being multiply optimistic here. First, you are expecting someone else to do the 'hard work' of reading an often interesting thread - you would probably learn a lot of useful stuff by doing it yourself. Then you expect an objective assessment of a consistently subjective phenomenon. The claimed/expected/hoped for/perceived/actual performance of this watch (or almost any other) is so dependent on the reporter's environment, test method, and competence, all coloured by their hopes and prejudices, that expecting to calculate a meaningful percentage of anything is just delusional. Then how do you apply any statistical evaluation to the instance of a single watch? I assume you're not intending to buy 10. My own experience of two was enough to persuade me to give up, but others will feel quite differently.


First off, thank you for your response. I was expecting something along these lines, hence my brief explanation. As I mentioned, I have browsed and searched for relevant info in this thread, if reading every post in this long, not doubt informative thread, is the only way for due diligence regarding the matter I inquired about, than I am guilty of slacking off and expecting others to do my work.

I am simply trying to gauge reported accuracy here with all its flaws, knowing full well that the accuracy of the next watch may vary. Had I read every post here, I would be able to say there is an approximate 50/50 chance of meeting specs, 80/20, or whatever. That's all. Under approximately 70% meeting specs would be an easy pass for me, higher, flawed, inconclusive reported figures may lead me to further consideration to determine if I want to take a chance on a purchase, one purchase, and likely read the whole thread.


----------



## Hans Moleman

PetWatch said:


> ... slacking off ...


Don't slack! 
This may sound very nerdy, and I make no apologies for that.

There is so much fun to be had in understanding something. Yes, it takes effort. Just look beyond that.

No, you don't need to read every post. Posts about colorful straps can be skipped.


----------



## woodville63

PetWatch said:


> I am simply trying to gauge reported accuracy here with all its flaws


It's a good question that I would be interested in the answer to as well. But, you probably need a sample of 200 for stat sig results. Plus, there's measuring the deviation and measuring the deviation. Some people measure using fancy photography (the real way), others like me look and see (estimate). If a bunch on people get on board it would be interesting to know how accurate the second hand strike the markers as well. Nowadays, I'm more OCD about that than accuracy. Heresy.


----------



## chris01

woodville63 said:


> It's a good question that I would be interested in the answer to as well. But, you probably need a sample of 200 for stat sig results. Plus, there's measuring the deviation and measuring the deviation. Some people measure using fancy photography (the real way), others like me look and see (estimate). If a bunch on people get on board it would be interesting to know how accurate the second hand strike the markers as well. Nowadays, I'm more OCD about that than accuracy. Heresy.


After all that, there's still the question of how will MY one watch perform. If you can be as fortunate as I was, having a very understanding and cooperative AD plus her equally helpful contact at Longines, then you can hope to return the watch if you're not satisfied. I might have fared better with a second watch but no such luck, and I thought that it was time to retire gracefully. Of course, many buyers will be perfectly happy with a watch that runs better than 10 SPY, and really don't care too much about the other 5 seconds. I just felt that Longines' engineering should be required to deliver on the much-hyped promises of the marketing people.


----------



## woodville63

chris01 said:


> After all that, there's still the question of how will MY one watch perform.


Yes, stats and probability: your sample of one could be an outlier. Saying that, the fact you have had a bad experience puts me off ever buying one given you gave them two attempts.


----------



## wbird

woodville63 said:


> Yes, stats and probability: your sample of one could be an outlier. Saying that, the fact you have had a bad experience puts me off ever buying one given you gave them two attempts.


Of course with possible exception of Breitling and Apple every other maker of HAQ watches have examples of product that failed to meet specs on this forum. Just saying if you're into getting a HAQ watch not many sure things out there.


----------



## PetWatch

This wasn't a complicated question, but it got lost in the weeds.

I'll assume, with all that entails, that since no one is bragging about how almost all or the vast majority of these watches perform to spec. thus far, there is no further need for me to pursue this avenue for a reliably expected 5 SPY watch. Appreciate your comments nonetheless.


----------



## PetWatch

wbird said:


> Of course with possible exception of Breitling and Apple every other maker of HAQ watches have examples of product that failed to meet specs on this forum. Just saying if you're into getting a HAQ watch not many sure things out there.


True, but it would be helpful for some of us to know which of the others are more likely to perform to spec., even with all the prone to error reports, insufficient data and the limited sample size. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have. At 80% I'll take my chances at 65% not.


----------



## chris01

PetWatch said:


> True, but it would be helpful for some of us to know which of the others are more likely to perform to spec., even with all the prone to error reports, insufficient data and the limited sample size. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have. At 80% I'll take my chances at 65% not.


I think the biggest problem with watches meeting their advertised spec, or not, is the dreaded 'wearing pattern'. If you wear your watch every day, and you live in a moderate climate, then you have a good chance of keeping the average environment close to the temperature at which the manufacturer calibrated the watch (remember that 'perfect' temperature compensation is still a distant prospect). However, if you don't meet these requirements your watch is unlikely to be comfortably within the accuracy that you found so appealing. In addition, after some years of use, the ageing of components will usually cause a rate drift that can be quite noticeable.

The worst thing that has happened in recent years is the disappearance of an accessible calibration feature that allowed a watch to be reset to match the user's experience - just like every respectable mechanical watch. With the introduction of the PreciDrive movement, and its likely evolution for the new VHP, ETA has removed a simple feature that allowed a keen user or an intelligent watchmaker to regulate their own watch to within fine limits. Now, their movements are either fixed for life or, possibly, can be regulated only with specialised equipment. This is true of just about every current HAQ watch on the market with the exception of the Grand Seikos and a few watches that still use the older ETA movements. The Sinn UX is a good example of the latter, but no sane person would open their oil-filled watch just to access the +/-8 SPY adjustment. Returning the watch to a service centre for a rate adjustment from an actual +10 to a desired < +5 SPY is really a gamble.

That is why I am sticking with my 4 various old VHPs, that are all comfortably within 0 to +3 SPY, until something comes along that either can be regulated or offers a new higher accuracy technology - perhaps the forthcoming Citizen.


----------



## wbird

PetWatch said:


> True, but it would be helpful for some of us to know which of the others are more likely to perform to spec., even with all the prone to error reports, insufficient data and the limited sample size. Sometimes you just have to work with what you have. At 80% I'll take my chances at 65% not.


The thing is the difference between 60 and 80% is sort of way too small to differentiate. The odds of you getting a watch that meet specs would be what 3 out of five versus 4 out of five. This is way to small to guarantee you anything on a single watch purchase. This is assuming all kinds of statistical things like we represent a random sample and a significant sample size.

The easier thing to look at from what you see here is that are quite a few watches are meeting specs, so this watch does have examples out there that can meet specs. If the odds are 50% and you have a decent AD that will take a return, you have a decent chance of getting your watch.


----------



## tmathes

chris01 said:


> I think the biggest problem with watches meeting their advertised spec, or not, is the dreaded 'wearing pattern'. If you wear your watch every day, and you live in a moderate climate, then you have a good chance of keeping the average environment close to the temperature at which the manufacturer calibrated the watch


I think you're missing one extra factor: how well the manufacturer will adjust/trim the watch at the factory.

My personal experience with the Precidrive line says it's not that well trimmed. I have 8-9 sec/year difference in two Certinas stored and/or worn under nearly identical conditions (16 sec/yr for one unit, my other one shifted from 24 s/yr in the 1st year to 26 sec/yr in the latest 12 month tracking). The variation alone is nearly the spec itself, which means Precidrive, while it can be within 10 sec/yr, isn't consistently at that value no matter what their "spec" claims to be.

From what I have observerd it is not TC related (that part seems very, VERY good, nearly no t/c at all!!), it's how well ETA can trim the movement initially. From what I can tell Chris the same would apply to the new VHP from what you experienced, it was trim related.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> I think you're missing one extra factor: how well the manufacturer will adjust/trim the watch at the factory.
> 
> My personal experience with the Precidrive line says it's not that well trimmed. I have 8-9 sec/year difference in two Certinas stored and/or worn under nearly identical conditions (16 sec/yr for one unit, my other one shifted from 24 s/yr in the 1st year to 26 sec/yr in the latest 12 month tracking). The variation alone is nearly the spec itself, which means Precidrive, while it can be within 10 sec/yr, isn't consistently at that value no matter what their "spec" claims to be.
> 
> From what I have observerd it is not TC related (that part seems very, VERY good, nearly no t/c at all!!), it's how well ETA can trim the movement initially. From what I can tell Chris the same would apply to the new VHP from what you experienced, it was trim related.


Yes, I'd have to agree with you in a general way. However, in the case of my two VHPs things were a bit different. One was +8 unworn, +3 worn, while the other was +10 unworn, +1 worn. A bit of trimming could have slightly improved things, but I wouldn't call that very good TC, and it's not obvious that post-manufacture trimming was actually possible. Then, of course, on what 'wearing pattern' should Longines base their initial setup? The second watch, if worn almost daily, was very good but not for my lifestyle. Give me a tweakable watch and I can do much better for myself, although not necessarily for anyone else.


----------



## kapahoo

So, another three months has passed and I've been a proud owner of my VHP for nine. As reported earlier, after three months I could not get any deviation at all and after six it was 0.3 seconds fast.

.

Today it is running pretty much exactly 1 second fast. It has picked up some pace which may be due to that the summer was very warm and now it is distinctively cooler. Still a pretty damn accurate watch though. Would be nice if it could pass the year with less deviation than two seconds..I wear my watch about 50% och the time. 


Sent from my H8324 using Tapatalk


----------



## Markhp

Just a follow up to a previous post I made a while back.
Today marks one full year of continuous running for my VHP.
It was started & then synced to a stand alone digital atomic clock on Christmas morning 2017.
Ive been monitoring it since. It's gone through 3-4 hourly time changes but was never stopped, re synced/hacked.
As of this morning it is running @ +6 seconds. It's gains were consistent & predictable over the year.
Considering it is only been on the wrist ~25% I think the performance is pretty darn good. I'm going to hack & sync it again. We'll see what an additional year brings.
Thought I'd report on this in case anyone else was interested.
The calander function has been flawless.
Overall, I am very pleased with all aspects of the watch. For me it's a keeper.
Happy holidays & New Years to all.....


----------



## GMT-man

I got my V.H.P as a Christmas present a year ago and it has gained 4.5 seconds in a year (reference: time.is website). I have been wearing it about 25% of the time, mostly as a dress watch and during weekends. Actually I have grown quite fond of it.

My only worry is that are the good people who give it to me going to notice it I get a GMT version and start wearing that?


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGbUGdpqS1-qWchO2jt2rZTZ4esPQ
Just saw this.


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGbUGdpqS1-qWchO2jt2rZTZ4esPQ
Just saw this.


----------



## Real Artman

Mine says hello!


----------



## csw1984

*Longines VHP Seconds Hand at Date Change*

Hi,

Got a white face 3 hand 43m model Three weeks ago and only just noticed in the last couple of nights that when the date changes, the seconds hand lags, then naturally goes back to where it should in terms of its correction feature.

Is this by design or a fault?

Thanks.


----------



## kapahoo

csw1984 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Got a white face 3 hand 43m model Three weeks ago and only just noticed in the last couple of nights that when the date changes, the seconds hand lags, then naturally goes back to where it should in terms of its correction feature.
> 
> Is this by design or a fault?
> 
> Thanks.


By design. The change 28th february to 1st of march is fantastic.

Sent from my H8324 using Tapatalk


----------



## csw1984

kapahoo said:


> By design. The change 28th february to 1st of march is fantastic.
> 
> Sent from my H8324 using Tapatalk


Many thanks for that. Shame they couldn't combat the issue.

It's lost a few miliseconds in Three weeks (just eye balling it) using Time.is Been wearing 24/7

Can anyone concur whether that's running properly or not?


----------



## gaijin

csw1984 said:


> Many thanks for that. Shame they couldn't combat the issue.
> 
> It's lost a few miliseconds in Three weeks (just eye balling it) using Time.is Been wearing 24/7
> 
> Can anyone concur whether that's running properly or not?


If you can eye ball a few milliseconds, sounds like you don't need any help.


----------



## csw1984

gaijin said:


> If you can eye ball a few milliseconds, sounds like you don't need any help.


Well, its out, ever so slightly, so my estimate is milliseconds and it's certainly not seconds. It's not hard, is it?


----------



## csw1984

Can anyone that has a new generation VHP confirm that the miliseconds out that it seems to have lost in Three weeks, is in spec?


----------



## ppaulusz

csw1984 said:


> Well, its out, ever so slightly, so my estimate is milliseconds and it's certainly not seconds. It's not hard, is it?


No, it is not hard... at this end... but looks pretty miserable at your end.


----------



## csw1984

ppaulusz said:


> No, it is not hard... at this end... but looks pretty miserable at your end.


What have I actually done wrong to get Two men on a HAQ watch forum give me dodgy respones for noticing my watch has lost milliseconds in Three weeks?


----------



## ronalddheld

Can you quantify the offset and the method that you used? Just saying milliseconds is too imprecise for this forum.
If the spec is 5 s/y, you might estimate the offset as 5*3/(4^12) or 5/16 s.


----------



## csw1984

ronalddheld said:


> Can you quantify the offset and the method that you used? Just saying milliseconds is too imprecise for this forum.
> If the spec is 5 s/y, you might estimate the offset as 5*3/(4^12) or 5/16 s.


I don't profess to have knowledge in correctly measuring a watch, just looking at the hands. They've been ticking in sync until Two days ago, now Time.is is ever so slightly taking to the next second whilst the watch second hand ever so slightly chasing it.

Like I said, I'm no expert, but it's the first time I've seen a change since buying the watch and would like to see whether it's following the spec of the VHPs'

Hell, no doubt it probably is, but I thought I'd ask.


----------



## ronalddheld

csw1984 said:


> I don't profess to have knowledge in correctly measuring a watch, just looking at the hands. They've been ticking in sync until Two days ago, now Time.is is ever so slightly taking to the next second whilst the watch second hand ever so slightly chasing it.
> 
> Like I said, I'm no expert, but it's the first time I've seen a change since buying the watch and would like to see whether it's following the spec of the VHPs'
> 
> Hell, no doubt it probably is, but I thought I'd ask.


I am not trying to berate you. This is a more technically oriented forum than most, with people using equipment to make measurements from stopwatches, to videos,as an example.


----------



## ppaulusz

csw1984 said:


> I don't profess to have knowledge in correctly measuring a watch, just looking at the hands. They've been ticking in sync until Two days ago, now Time.is is ever so slightly taking to the next second whilst the watch second hand ever so slightly chasing it.
> 
> Like I said, I'm no expert, but it's the first time I've seen a change since buying the watch and would like to see whether it's following the spec of the VHPs'
> 
> Hell, no doubt it probably is, but I thought I'd ask.


It's getting worse, I'm afraid. You have started with "_milliseconds_" now it's "_ever so slightly_".
The problem with the milliseconds is that you could not have perceived it with the naked eye. The problem with the "_ever so slightly_" is that you seriously can't expect us to translate it to an exact number. Can you?!
But here is a hint that would suggest that you really got it wrong: Let's say for argument's sake that your watch is late 10 milliseconds per day (not 3 weeks only a single day!). Now that would translate to less than 4 seconds per year. Your watch is rated for 5 seconds per year... Shall I continue?! If it is only some milliseconds in 3 weeks then how on Earth you could not have realized that it would mean a performance well within factory specifications?! If it was rather some hundreds of the second in that 3 weeks period then you should not have used the term of milliseconds to start with. 
Conclusion: I let you to figure it out...


----------



## csw1984

ronalddheld said:


> I am not trying to berate you. This is a more technically oriented forum than most, with people using equipment to make measurements from stopwatches, to videos,as an example.


I didn't feel berated, just noticed a out of sync seconds movement just as I noticed the seconds hand movement issue regarding the date change, hense my initial post.



ppaulusz said:


> It's getting worse, I'm afraid.


Can you read?



csw1984 said:


> I don't profess to have knowledge in correctly measuring a watch[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> csw1984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I'm no expert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> csw1984 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hell, no doubt it probably is, but I thought I'd ask.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> I am not trying to berate you. This is a more technically oriented forum than most, with people using equipment to make measurements from stopwatches, to videos,as an example.


You see, Ron, at the end of the day he'll be a genius and we will look like fools because only fools like us wasting their time with a genius like him.
When one lamented that this forum reached ground-zero level then here we go... and this time I'm not comparing the current state of the HAQ forum to the good old days (the golden years of HAQ), no only to yesterday!:-d


----------



## ronalddheld

Maybe this subthread should stop for now. 
Back to awaiting the GMT version.....


----------



## GMT-man

csw1984 said:


> I didn't feel berated, just noticed a out of sync seconds movement just as I noticed the seconds hand movement issue regarding the date change, hense my initial post.


In plain English: 5 seconds per year translates into 0.1 second per week. That is still within the manufacturer's specs, and can be seen with a naked eye when comparing against time.is . If it has taken 3 weeks to get to this point you watch is working better than promised, likely in the 2-3 SPY range.

On this forum when you write "millisecond" you must actually mean one thousandth of a second, not just something barely noticeable, because you can not "see" milliseconds (decisecond can be noticed; 0.1th of a sec). This is because we are very technically oriented here, and when somebody gives exact figures we tend to believe them (or question it).


----------



## csw1984

GMT-man said:


> In plain English: 5 seconds per year translates into 0.1 second per week. That is still within the manufacturer's specs, and can be seen with a naked eye when comparing against time.is . If it has taken 3 weeks to get to this point you watch is working better than promised, likely in the 2-3 SPY range.
> 
> On this forum when you write "millisecond" you must actually mean one thousandth of a second, not just something barely noticeable, because you can not "see" milliseconds (decisecond can be noticed; 0.1th of a sec). This is because we are very technically oriented here, and when somebody gives exact figures we tend to believe them (or question it).


Thank you. We got there in the end. 

As for Paul... *****...

Again thanks.


----------



## ronalddheld

My AD has a VHP GMT in stock. PM me for more details.


----------



## ronalddheld

https://timeandtidewatches.com/longines-vhp-gmt-review/


----------



## TankCommander1554

The video that goes with this review is pretty cool - I'm not really into the whole smart watch thing, but this seems like a neat concept. Talk about quick set time...might have to reconsider Longines


----------



## Huchiz

Bought my 41mm blue vhp GMT in New Zealand this week. Love it. Gonna wear it daily.


----------



## Tomc1944

Bought my 43mm blue VHP this week and it is a beautiful watch. I have wanted a Longines since I lost the one my father gave me for high school graduation. So the VHP is my grail.


----------



## Celtictoc

Hi!!.
I'm seriously thinking about buying the VHP white 41mm. But I have serious doubts about the adjustment of the bracelet. I see that it has 2 half links next to the closure. I wonder if this will be enough to adjust it correctly to the size of the wrist.

I have a Hydroconquest auto 41 mm and the closure is totally different with micro adjustments, to which I had to buy a half link for me to stay perfect in size.

My wrist measures 7.25 "

Have you had any problem in this regard with the VHP ?.

Thank you.


----------



## Tomc1944

I bought a 43mm VHP last week and used half links to fit bracelet. It fits perfect and I love the watch. Real quality.


----------



## Celtictoc

Tomc1944 said:


> I bought a 43mm VHP last week and used half links to fit bracelet. It fits perfect and I love the watch. Real quality.


Ok. And where have you got the half links ?. I have searched the internet and it is quite complicated to find spare parts of Longines.

Thanks.


----------



## gaijin

Celtictoc said:


> Ok. And where have you got the half links ?. I have searched the internet and it is quite complicated to find spare parts of Longines.
> 
> Thanks.


Two half links come with the watch:










No need to purchase as a spare from Longines.

HTH


----------



## HEQAdmirer

Nice, but prefer my Certina DS Eagle Quartz Precidrive, accuracy within 10 seconds per year


----------



## Tomc1944

Half links come on bracelet. Removed both to make the watch fit.


----------



## Celtictoc

gaijin said:


> Two half links come with the watch:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No need to purchase as a spare from Longines.
> 
> HTH





Tomc1944 said:


> Half links come on bracelet. Removed both to make the watch fit.


Ok Ok.

I had misunderstood. Sorry.

I have a Hydroconquest auto and it also has 2 half links. But they are the ones closest to the closing and with a fixed pin, so it is not easy to change them if you do not ask for help from a watchmaker. In this case, the watch or I was loose or tight even removing or putting normal links and playing with the micro-adjustment of the closure. Then I had to buy a half link on the internet and now it fits perfectly.

The VHP has no micro-adjustment. I knew that it incorporated 2 half links, but I did not know that both had a removable pin. (Thanks to _gaijin_ for the enlarged photo).

My fear is yes I will need another half link for me to fit on my wrist of 7.25 ", because if I had problems with Hydro, with VHP it will be worse, so I asked where they could get.

In this review, the author complains about the same thing.

https://journeywindjunk.com/2018/04/16/review-longines-conquest-v-h-p-watch/

Thanks guys and sorry again.


----------



## cheznous

"Having now had my VHP coming up to a year it is currently running at 3 seconds fast which fits in within the 5 second per year parameter.
I am impressed as this includes both periods of wearing and non wearing. So hats off to Longines considering its price compared to say the Grand Seiko.
Of course I would love the new Citizen calibre 001 but only when the price is more appropriate for me to justify it."

Apologies but just rechecked this morning and it is back to 2 seconds fast which is mightily impressive.


----------



## davidn

cheznous said:


> "Having now had my VHP coming up to a year it is currently running at 3 seconds fast which fits in within the 5 second per year parameter.
> I am impressed as this includes both periods of wearing and non wearing. So hats off to Longines considering its price compared to say the Grand Seiko.
> Of course I would love the new Citizen calibre 001 but only when the price is more appropriate for me to justify it."
> 
> Apologies but just rechecked this morning and it is back to 2 seconds fast which is mightily impressive.


Have had my replacement 43mm, 3 hander 4 months now and tracking at 2 secs fast over this time period so, 6 secs per year at this stage, not bad


----------



## vintorez

How big does the VHP wear? I'm a bit put off by the 50mm L2L considering I have 6.5" wrists. Would it be too big?


----------



## Mr.Jones82

vintorez said:


> How big does the VHP wear? I'm a bit put off by the 50mm L2L considering I have 6.5" wrists. Would it be too big?


 I don't think you'll have any issues with the 41 because the lugs curve downward. I own the 43mm and was surprised to find it wears a lot smaller than the measurements would suggest.


----------



## fclass308

Yes. It would look inappropriate. My 41 mm wears pretty large on my 8.5" wrist...but perfectly sized.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

vintorez said:


> How big does the VHP wear? I'm a bit put off by the 50mm L2L considering I have 6.5" wrists. Would it be too big?


Not the 41mm, in my experience (I have a 6.5" left wrist & usually max out at 50mm L2L), though it is a big, thick watch. Of course, a lot depends on the shape of your wrists/arms & personal preferences. As long as a watch wears comfortably, I only care that it doesn't look oversized to someone else from a normal distance, say 3 feet away (most wrist shots, like selfies, are unrealistic because they're taken w/wide angle lenses at close distances).


----------



## Skeptical

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am interested in the VHP and don't understand how the perpetual calendar works. I looked up the manual online and there doesn't seem to be any instructions on how to set it. Does it come pre-set from the factory?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Skeptical said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am interested in the VHP and don't understand how the perpetual calendar works. I looked up the manual online and there doesn't seem to be any instructions on how to set it. Does it come pre-set from the factory?


Yes, it's pre-set at the factory.


----------



## GMT-man

Skeptical said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am interested in the VHP and don't understand how the perpetual calendar works. I looked up the manual online and there doesn't seem to be any instructions on how to set it. Does it come pre-set from the factory?


V.H.P. is what we here have come to call a "smart quartz" watch, meaning that it has a separate independent time keeping electronics (computer if you like) and mechanism for moving the hands. The inbuilt "time computer" has a calendar which is good until year 2399. Calendar is preset at the factory and can not be adjusted more than +-1 day by the user to prevent messing it up. If the battery dies totally the watch has to be reset by Longines service. There is a 6 month warning period before the battery dies, though.


----------



## Skeptical

Thanks for the replies. I did end up getting one (41mm blue dial 3 hands). I hope this will work as an everyday watch, and look forward to testing the long term "on the wrist" accuracy.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gtuck

Just picked up my VHP 3 hander yesterday. This is my first high accuracy piece coming from a word of mechanical watches. So, my first newbie question. Is there any discernible positional variation like there is with a mechanical piece. Obviously it would be much less. I'm finding the watch and bracelet to be quite comfortable. The AD took out 2 full and one half link to fit my 7" wrist. Bracelets with screws I easily handle but am a klutz when it comes to pins.


----------



## ronalddheld

gtuck said:


> Just picked up my VHP 3 hander yesterday. This is my first high accuracy piece coming from a word of mechanical watches. So, my first newbie question. Is there any discernible positional variation like there is with a mechanical piece. Obviously it would be much less. I'm finding the watch and bracelet to be quite comfortable. The AD took out 2 full and one half link to fit my 7" wrist. Bracelets with screws I easily handle but am a klutz when it comes to pins.


You are not going to see any positional effects.


----------



## ronalddheld

gtuck said:


> Just picked up my VHP 3 hander yesterday. This is my first high accuracy piece coming from a word of mechanical watches. So, my first newbie question. Is there any discernible positional variation like there is with a mechanical piece. Obviously it would be much less. I'm finding the watch and bracelet to be quite comfortable. The AD took out 2 full and one half link to fit my 7" wrist. Bracelets with screws I easily handle but am a klutz when it comes to pins.


You are not going to see any positional effects.


----------



## gtuck

ronalddheld said:


> You are not going to see any positional effects.


Thanks


----------



## dwalby

I picked up a VHP and had the bracelet resized at the local watch repair. The guy noticed that the number of links in the bracelet were not symmetrical on each side between the clasp and the lug (one more link on one side than the other). Is this the way they come from the factory, or was mine worn by someone else and returned without all the links?


----------



## Skeptical

I think I had 5, plus a half link on one side and 6 plus a half link on the other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dwalby

Skeptical said:


> I think I had 5, plus a half link on one side and 6 plus a half link on the other.


yeah, that's how mine is, he took the two half links out and I have 5 links on one side and 6 on the other. I've also noticed a similar count in a VHP photo on the web somewhere. Never paid any attention to this before, are most watches symmetric? Seems logical that they would be, but I don't have a clue because I've never bothered counting them before.

edit: here's a picture of the VHP from jomashop and it shows the same thing 5-1/2 links on one side, 6-1/2 on the other, so I guess that's normal?? I sent an e-mail to Longines this AM asking the same question, but haven't received a reply yet.

https://www.jomashop.com/longines-watch-l3-716-4-76-6.html


----------



## Tomc1944

Skeptical said:


> I think I had 5, plus a half link on one side and 6 plus a half link on the other.
> 
> Same as mine. That is the way they come. Rule of thumb. If you need to take out odd number of links always take out the odd one from the side with the extra link. Usually on the 12 o'clock side.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 j


----------



## dwalby

dwalby said:


> I sent an e-mail to Longines this AM asking the same question, but haven't received a reply yet.


my correspondence with Longines turned out to be a comical experience. I asked them in very clear wording if the non-symmetrical link count was typical for this watch. After a couple of tries I got a reply from the spare parts dept. telling me the links were back-ordered for 3 to 4 weeks, but they would gladly take my order. Told them I didn't want to buy links, just wanted to know how many were in the bracelet from the factory. They replied saying a typical bracelet is 7 to 8 inches in length. Asked again, in very clear wording, they still couldn't answer and suggested I call customer service and talk to someone there. That part took about 6-7 exchanges, I don't know how they could have misunderstood my request so many times.

On the phone the person said the bracelets are typically symmetrical, but they didn't really sound like they knew anything specific about the VHP, they were talking in very general terms. So other than get a few laughs out of their complete inability to read and comprehend a 2 sentence e-mail, I got nothing from Longines of any value.


----------



## dwalby

Skeptical and TomC

Did you guys buy through an AD, or Internet??


----------



## ronalddheld

dwalby said:


> Skeptical and TomC
> 
> Did you guys buy through an AD, or Internet??[/QUOTE
> Responses via PM.


----------



## ronalddheld

dwalby said:


> Skeptical and TomC
> 
> Did you guys buy through an AD, or Internet??[/QUOTE
> Responses via PM.


----------



## Skeptical

I got mine from Jomashop.


----------



## thx67

dwalby said:


> my correspondence with Longines turned out to be a comical experience. I asked them in very clear wording if the non-symmetrical link count was typical for this watch. After a couple of tries I got a reply from the spare parts dept. telling me the links were back-ordered for 3 to 4 weeks, but they would gladly take my order. Told them I didn't want to buy links, just wanted to know how many were in the bracelet from the factory. They replied saying a typical bracelet is 7 to 8 inches in length. Asked again, in very clear wording, they still couldn't answer and suggested I call customer service and talk to someone there. That part took about 6-7 exchanges, I don't know how they could have misunderstood my request so many times.
> 
> On the phone the person said the bracelets are typically symmetrical, but they didn't really sound like they knew anything specific about the VHP, they were talking in very general terms. So other than get a few laughs out of their complete inability to read and comprehend a 2 sentence e-mail, I got nothing from Longines of any value.


To be fair to their customer care, they probably wouldnt have access to this info and are probably nowhere near any factory or warehouse to be able to find this info out. Not ideal but imagine the type of database they would need to answer questions like this. They would need spring bar measurements, rotor weights, screw sizes, which clasp matches which bracelet, link dimensions etc. The info would literally be endless considering all the watches they currently make and they all have to support their back catalogue of products which is why you got a copy and paste response. I would go into a bricks and mortar store and ask them. Make up a story about buying one for your brother or something. Im sure theyll help you out.


----------



## dwalby

thx67 said:


> To be fair to their customer care, they probably wouldnt have access to this info and are probably nowhere near any factory or warehouse to be able to find this info out. Not ideal but imagine the type of database they would need to answer questions like this. They would need spring bar measurements, rotor weights, screw sizes, which clasp matches which bracelet, link dimensions etc. The info would literally be endless considering all the watches they currently make and they all have to support their back catalogue of products which is why you got a copy and paste response.


If their customer care responded originally with "we don't have access to that information" then your comments here would be applicable. What happened instead was a series of e-mails going off on tangents for no reason at all, for things that I never requested, because it appeared they simply didn't take the time to read the two sentence question I asked. Even after politely replying back (more than once) that they must have mis-understood the question, please read it again, they kept replying to things that had nothing to do with my original question. It was actually entertaining because of the level of cluelessness being displayed.


----------



## Tomc1944

I got mine from Jomashop also.


----------



## tmathes

dwalby said:


> If their customer care responded originally with "we don't have access to that information" then your comments here would be applicable. What happened instead was a series of e-mails going off on tangents for no reason at all, for things that I never requested, because it appeared they simply didn't take the time to read the two sentence question I asked. Even after politely replying back (more than once) that they must have mis-understood the question, please read it again, they kept replying to things that had nothing to do with my original question. It was actually entertaining because of the level of cluelessness being displayed.


Unfortunately that's way, way too typical with customer support via email. I've had that exact experience several times over the years with way too many companies.


----------



## konax

How much is the OEM rubber at your AD? Here it's around $220 (strap with clasp) and I find it a little ridiculous. 
Or any decent alternative rubber straps with curved (fitted) ends? Right now I'm using Barton Elite Silicone and while the comfort is good, it just feels like something is missing.


----------



## Mawnan

Posted elsewhere on this forum, I now realise this is where I should have posted in the first place.

Late last year (2018) I purchased from U.K. authorised dealers both a Certina DS Podium chronograph chronometer (-/+ 10 spy) and the new Longines VHP (-/+ 5 spy).

On January 1st this year I reset them both to TimeIs.com at midday. Today, 16th August, the Certina is running 1 second fast and the Longines is running 1 second slow.

Granted, they are not worn on a daily basis but I find that pretty damned remarkable.

Regards,

Jay.


----------



## gtuck

My first HAQ watch after years of owning mechanicals and being obsessed with accuracy on the wrist, nightly positioning, watching for magnetic threats, and shocks is delighting me. I know this is hardly a "scientific" measure but my 3 hander VHP hasn't drifted a bit in the first two plus weeks. I've worn it the majority of most days and understand that if it sits off-wrist for significant time, it may speed up. But so far, it's proving a great deal of fun.


----------



## dwalby

I have a question about the movement used in the VHP, wonder if anyone can shed some light on this.

The VHP movement is the first one I've owned that has the minute hand move in six discrete steps per minute, once every 10 second interval, rather than in a continuous movement over the entire minute. I've also noticed this movement type in some videos of a Casio oceanus t200s here:






and I think I saw a similar thing in another video, but I can't recall for sure. So I'm curious, how many other quartz watches are using this minute hand control method, has this become a common thing, or is it limited to only a few watches??


----------



## nodnar

dwalby said:


> I have a question about the movement used in the VHP, wonder if anyone can shed some light on this.
> 
> The VHP movement is the first one I've owned that has the minute hand move in six discrete steps per minute, once every 10 second interval, rather than in a continuous movement over the entire minute. I've also noticed this movement type in some videos of a Casio oceanus t200s here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and I think I saw a similar thing in another video, but I can't recall for sure. So I'm curious, how many other quartz watches are using this minute hand control method, has this become a common thing, or is it limited to only a few watches??


I have a citizen that does this. The key I think is that the second hand and minute hands are not geared together. For example, any watch that uses the seconds hand to point to something during functions would be able to step the minute hand.

Interestingly, (maybe not) I have a quartz without any seconds hand, and it's minute hand steps every 20 seconds, my guess is to save battery power.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dwalby

nodnar said:


> any watch that uses the seconds hand to point to something during functions would be able to step the minute hand.


I think you're onto something there. Now that I think of it, both watches I noticed this on were 'atomic' radio adjusted watches, and their second hands were multi-function pointers as well as being a second hand. The VHP is similar in that its second hand is more a pointer driven to a position to match the seconds count of an internal clock and not a typical mechanically driven hand coupled to the minute hand with gears.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

nodnar said:


> Interestingly, (maybe not) I have a quartz without any seconds hand, and it's minute hand steps every 20 seconds, my guess is to save battery power.


I've observed the 20 second steps of the minute hand on many two-hand quartz watches and, like you, assume it is to save battery.


----------



## gtuck

gtuck said:


> My first HAQ watch after years of owning mechanicals and being obsessed with accuracy on the wrist, nightly positioning, watching for magnetic threats, and shocks is delighting me. I know this is hardly a "scientific" measure but my 3 hander VHP hasn't drifted a bit in the first two plus weeks. I've worn it the majority of most days and understand that if it sits off-wrist for significant time, it may speed up. But so far, it's proving a great deal of fun.


Well, it's been a whole month and using WatchTracker and my somewhat reasonable eye-hand coordination, the watch hasn't drifted at all. Simply incredible I say. I love this watch and am thinking that there may be a GMT version in my future when we start traveling again.


----------



## col

nodnar said:


> I have a citizen that does this. The key I think is that the second hand and minute hands are not geared together. For example, any watch that uses the seconds hand to point to something during functions would be able to step the minute hand.
> 
> Interestingly, (maybe not) I have a quartz without any seconds hand, and it's minute hand steps every 20 seconds, my guess is to save battery power.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I always remember my omega x33 had 30-second jumps, where the minute hand jumped between the markers as second hand passed the 6 position, then over to the next tick when the second hand reach the 12.


----------



## farmerboy

Looking for your opinions.
Which of the dial colors is easier to read in real life versus on a computer screen?

Also, I have read several review concerning the bracelet being just OK to not very good.
To you who own this watch. Is the bracelet preferred or is the rubber strap a better buy?


----------



## dwalby

farmerboy said:


> Looking for your opinions.
> Which of the dial colors is easier to read in real life versus on a computer screen?
> 
> Also, I have read several review concerning the bracelet being just OK to not very good.
> To you who own this watch. Is the bracelet preferred or is the rubber strap a better buy?


re: dial color. I already had a blue watch and black watch, so I pretty much counted those two out from the start and looked at the carbon fiber and white/silver. On my wrist, a quick look down at the carbon fiber dial seemed like the second hand was the same color as the dial and hard to see. I suspect the black dial would be similar. The blue dial has decent contrast, but its a bit of an odd shade of blue and with the red minute markers it never thrilled me even though I'd ruled it out already. The white/silver has great contrast, the only downside is its a bit boring compared to the other colors. Its easily readable in low light, which probably isn't true with the carbon and black, and the blue is probably marginal in that regard. In total darkness the lume is decent, but not great, and its applied in fairly thin lines on the hands and markers so it doesn't jump out at you like a dive watch for example.

re: bracelet. I've heard people knock the bracelet for lack of finishing, but for overall feel I think its very good. I switch between it and an Omega Seamaster Pro and find the overall wrist feel to be similar. Its not polished around the edges as well as more expensive watches, but that doesn't matter to me. The VHP weight is pretty much identical to my SMP, so they feel very similar on my wrist, and to me that's all that matters. It doesn't feel like a cheap watch, it feels like its made well to me, but all I owned before it was the Omega and a Rolex Sub so I never owned a cheap watch to know exactly how they feel in comparison. I paid $695 for mine, and I think its one of the best deals out there for a quartz watch by a Swiss brand name. I think if you shop used you can get them in the $400-500 range.

And, its the only watch I own with a perpetual calendar, which is kind of a cool thing that I find to be useful, and it changes time zones without having to re-set the watch.


----------



## konax

farmerboy said:


> Also, I have read several review concerning the bracelet being just OK to not very good.
> To you who own this watch. Is the bracelet preferred or is the rubber strap a better buy?


IMO the bracelet is nicely designed and very well finished, end link fitment is superb. It lacks microadjustment, also I'm not a fan of butterfly clasps in general and just feels very heavy. If I were buying again I'd get the strap (and I'm saying this as a big bracelet guy).
As for the dial, I have the blue one and it's very easy to read in any situation, no issues whatsoever. The lume is pretty decent too.


----------



## farmerboy

Thank you both for posting. Very helpful comments.
Part of what led to my questions is the early discussion on this thread about the blue color and the carbon.
So many times blue is black or purple on a computer.

I'm on the hunt so any and all opinions are appreciated.


----------



## dwalby

farmerboy said:


> Part of what led to my questions is the early discussion on this thread about the blue color and the carbon.


Don't think I read the part about the blue and carbon dials, was it a contrast issue, or more about the color being accurately represented in the photo?

I've found that seeing a watch in person is never quite the same as viewing pictures online because of the variation in lighting in the photos, and depending on the color of the watch it can vary quite a bit from one picture to another. I like videos because they tend to provide a bit more realistic view of the watch from angles other than straight on, and as the watch changes angles with the light you get a better idea of how it looks. And, they usually show a shot with the watch on someone's wrist, which helps too. I was planning on buying the carbon fiber version until I tried one on, and there were definitely contrast issues for me in a well lighted store. If you want to be able to tell the time with a quick glance out of the side of your eye, there's not much contrast. The two main hands are OK, but you really have to look closely to pick up the second hand. I probably should have gone back a second time to be absolutely sure about it, but my first impression was I prefer something with more contrast than the carbon fiber provided.

you may have already found this on a search, but in the link below the picture that comes up in the right side box with the white and carbon versions side by side is a good representation of what they look like in real life. Another thing I've noticed about watch pictures in general is they are almost always "larger than life size" so the dial jumps out more in the pictures than it does on your wrist. The diameter of the actual crystal is about 33mm across, so if you resize the page to match that dimension on your monitor it should be realistic. Another variable is the monitor you're viewing on, they all look a little different as well.

https://www.google.com/search?q=lon...roQ9QEwAnoECAkQCQ#imgrc=0wHPnMYkiSdSnM:&vet=1


----------



## farmerboy

It was mainly the color a photo shows vs real life in this thread or one in the Longines forum also spoke of contrast.
I do not have a store closer than 3 hours each way so I ask a lot of mundane questions.
After 85 pages you'd think a person would have all the ? answered.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

One thing to consider with the bracelet is that it doesn’t taper. It is really thick and chunky, and definitely has a very toolish vibe about it (all the toolish looks, yet only given 50m wr?), but that nontapering bracelet isn’t exactly comfortable, especially when you have a butterfly bracelet without microadjustments. I still like mine and actually like the bracelet for what it is, but if you cannot get a good fit on the bracelet it could be very uncomfortable for you.


----------



## farmerboy

Yes, that 50m wr is silly (sems a real oversight) especially with the non-VHP being 30 bar.
I should go ahead a buy one so that Longines will then come out with a 30 bar VHP. 

I have a Strap Code adjustable clasp resting on my desk. 
This could perhaps make up for the factory bracelets shortfall.


----------



## gtuck

I have the silver/white dial face version. To my aging eyes, it is highly legible. I have found watches with black faces and "silver" hands to be a challenge. Unless the light is reflecting off of the hands, they appear dark grey and blend into the background dial. That is certainly true of my Rolex Explorer. The exception is when the hands are broad and contain significant white lume, such as the Tudor Ranger. The VHP has "silver" hands which also appear dark grey but against the silver/white dial they provide excellent contrast. This has become my everyday watch which has found a home on my wrist every day for three months. It may have gained 0.3 seconds during that time. Love this watch!!


----------



## farmerboy

My eyes aren't aging, they are just plain old!!
Thank you gtuck.

One of the major attributes for me is that the VHP comes in a 43mm size.
This not only for easier reading, but for preference, comfort, wearibility, preference and most of all preference.


----------



## thx67

farmerboy said:


> Thank you both for posting. Very helpful comments.
> Part of what led to my questions is the early discussion on this thread about the blue color and the carbon.
> So many times blue is black or purple on a computer.
> 
> I'm on the hunt so any and all opinions are appreciated.


I need good legibility in a watch as my eyes aren't great. I found the carbon dial looked a bit plasticky (entirely personal), the white was nice but i think you have to have a couple of watches in a rotation to really enjoy a white watch as I think they can look a bit plain or washed out. So I ended up with the blue. The dial on the blue is really stunning in sunlight and it has a splash of red in the dial. If I was going to be critical though, the lume is pretty poor although im used to heavy lume on watches. I also see why the bracelet gets negative reactions. Theres nothing wrong with it but I think the end lugs are a bit odd from certain angles and I would say the bracelet is where theyve cut the costs as the watch is a fantastic buy and incredible value for money. Heres a couple of photos of the dial in the sunlight.


----------



## kapahoo

farmerboy said:


> I have a Strap Code adjustable clasp resting on my desk.
> This could perhaps make up for the factory bracelets shortfall.


Yes it would! Please let us know if you succeed with putting that clasp to the stock longines braclet.

Apart from the clasp - the bracelet is fine. Looks and feels good.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


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## farmerboy

Really appreciate the in put. Thank you.
If a purchase works out I will attempt to post. And will include the clasp if it fits.


----------



## farmerboy

Unfortunately the Strapcode adjustable clasp I have will not fit readily fit the VHP bracelet.

The bracelet links are reversed (short side/long side) to what the clasp needs.
Since I have this clasp, I may experiment. Some sort of small tubing (brass?) could be used as spacers for each side.
Even something such as connecting ferrules for very small diameter wire may be made to work.
The VHP (silver dial) watch is really nice. An adjustable clasp would really be a great addition.


----------



## farmerboy

Dan Finch said:


> [FONT=&]OK I bought the *regular* quartz Conquest at a price I couldn't resist, and I do like it! Even though it is not the VHP movement, I want to let people know that the regular model has been been upgraded with the hi-end E6.4111 Preci-drive movement with thermo compensation.
> 
> Can someone clarify if the above mentioned E6.4111 movement is what Longines calls the 157 (L157) movement?


----------



## koolpep

The eta E64.111:

https://shopb2b.eta.ch/technical_documents/index/pdf/id/2177/

Esslinger says:

https://www.esslinger.com/eta-3-han...-e64-111-6-date-at-6-00-overall-height-3-2mm/

Quote:
E64.111
"Replaces ETA 255.111, 255.112"

So the answer is - yes (edit: well no actually, it replaces it in the eta offering though) it replaces the movements used in the VHP


----------



## koolpep

Oh and sorry forgot the L157 is an eta 255.112


----------



## farmerboy

Update to the Strapcode clasp

The Longines VHP bracelet uses push pins to hold the clasp. The Strapcode clasp uses springbars.
This clasp is not designed for this type bracelet. If others find a good alternative to the bracelet please post.


----------



## gtuck

Using highly unscientific methods and WatchTracker on my phone, I'm pretty confident my 3 hand VHP would come in at around +2 spy if worn every day. Wearing it in rotation does cause it to speed up a bit.


----------



## tomchicago

VHP is a great watch. I passed only because, as a dress watch, it's too chunky/sporty, and as a sport watch its WR rating is too low for me. However, I love the movement and look forward to refined models in the future.



gtuck said:


> Using highly unscientific methods and WatchTracker on my phone, I'm pretty confident my 3 hand VHP would come in at around +2 spy if worn every day. Wearing it in rotation does cause it to speed up a bit.


----------



## dwalby

tomchicago said:


> as a dress watch, it's too chunky/sporty, and as a sport watch its WR rating is too low for me.


As a VHP owner, I can't argue with that logic. The 50m WR rating turned me off initially too. I eventually gave in for the perpetual calendar and easy timezone/DST changes, plus the heavy discounts available off of MSRP.


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## farmerboy

I agree that the price and features on the VHP watch is compelling. I bought one. 
The water resistance at first seemed a negative. 
Truth is it can be dunked washing dishes or washing hands, plunged when landing a fish, splashed while cleaning the horse trough and even wore during casual swimming.

If my life style was more water oriented, it would not be my first choice.
Having a large wrist I was not sure a 43mm would work. The 43mm VHP is high ratio dial to watch case.
For me it works perfectly......my 1st HAQ watch. I like it.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

farmerboy said:


> I agree that the price and features on the VHP watch is compelling. I bought one.
> The water resistance at first seemed a negative.
> Truth is it can be dunked washing dishes or washing hands, plunged when landing a fish, splashed while cleaning the horse trough and even wore during casual swimming.
> 
> If my life style was more water oriented, it would not be my first choice.
> . . .


My experience is similar, though as a city guy, the biggest water resistance challenge I routinely encounter is getting caught in a downpour without an umbrella (many of my vintage watches have failed or would fail that test) & 50m/5atm is more than sufficient to handle that without difficulty.


----------



## polendo

Just got mine! 41mm , blue, bracelet.


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## Tomc1944

Congratulations. Beautiful watch. I hope you like it as much as I love my Blue dialed VHP GMT.


----------



## polendo

Thanks! I certainly will. It was so hard to find something this classic in this size. I just completed my three watch collection (though I have other watches). This one, Junghans 1972 and Victorinox INOX . 


Enviado desde mi iPad utilizando Tapatalk Pro


----------



## stuartb12

Does anyone know the thickness of the GMT? I didn’t go to the end of the earth looking, but I didn’t find it in a quick search. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## signum8

koolpep said:


> The eta E64.111:
> 
> https://shopb2b.eta.ch/technical_documents/index/pdf/id/2177/
> 
> Esslinger says:
> 
> https://www.esslinger.com/eta-3-han...-e64-111-6-date-at-6-00-overall-height-3-2mm/
> 
> Quote:
> E64.111
> "Replaces ETA 255.111, 255.112"
> 
> So the answer is - yes (edit: well no actually, it replaces it in the eta offering though) it replaces the movements used in the VHP


I'm thinking of getting it and a discount is icing on the cake, but a Longines warranty and this new 64.111 is what I want. Any recommended online shops that offer that? I don't want to be stuck with a display model or old remainder.


----------



## ronalddheld

signum8 said:


> I'm thinking of getting it and a discount is icing on the cake, but a Longines warranty and this new 64.111 is what I want. Any recommended online shops that offer that? I don't want to be stuck with a display model or old remainder.


Respond via PM.


----------



## stuartb12

stuartb12 said:


> Does anyone know the thickness of the GMT? I didn't go to the end of the earth looking, but I didn't find it in a quick search. Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In case anyone else is interested, I reached out to Longines directly and the agent said that the thickness on the VHP GMT is 12.5mm. Very wearable . . .

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## koolpep

signum8 said:


> I'm thinking of getting it and a discount is icing on the cake, but a Longines warranty and this new 64.111 is what I want. Any recommended online shops that offer that? I don't want to be stuck with a display model or old remainder.


Hmmm I don't know since when these movements are used. Let me see if I can open my case back and have a look. Update.

Opened the case back. Mine is still the 56.111

My watch was according to the Longines Brand Heritage info: 
Invoiced to Swatch Group USA on 18th April 2018.


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## Tikim

Hello,

I think there is a misunderstanding here, although it's maybe just me who misunderstood the whole conversation. 

As far as I know, there is no link between the 64.111 movement and the movement present in the 2017 Conquest VHP. The Longines Conquest VHP (3-hander) has the L288 movement, which is called E56.111 by ETA (This can be seen in a document called longines-technical-information-quartz-en.pdf, you can Google it, unfortunately my low post count prevents me from adding a link here).

The 64.111 movement replaces other parts of the Longines quartz collection, but not the Longines Conquest VHP (2017-present) series. Not the 3-hander, not the chrono and not the GMT. The 64.111 movement is inferior to the L288 movement in many ways. 

If you want a Longines Conquest VHP (3 hands), go for the one which your AD can provide you, it will have the L288/E56.111 movement inside as there's no reason for anything else to be there.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

koolpep said:


> Hmmm I don't know since when these movements are used. Let me see if I can open my case back and have a look. Update.
> 
> Opened the case back. Mine is still the 56.111
> 
> My watch was according to the Longines Brand Heritage info:
> Invoiced to Swatch Group USA on 18th April 2018.


If I may ask, how did you get the production information on your VHP? I wasn't sure if the Certificate of Authenticity service (https://www.longines.com/certificate-of-authenticity) applied to modern watches, so I sent an email to Longines customer service, but they said they couldn't help me.


----------



## koolpep

stolen-gmt-master said:


> If I may ask, how did you get the production information on your VHP? I wasn't sure if the Certificate of Authenticity service (https://www.longines.com/certificate-of-authenticity) applied to modern watches, so I sent an email to Longines customer service, but they said they couldn't help me.


I went here just a few weeks ago:

https://www.longines.com/certificate-of-authenticity

Choose or tell them you want the history of your watch via email. Send pics of the watch and serial number. That's what I did. Took a few days.

Cheers.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

koolpep said:


> I went here just a few weeks ago:
> 
> https://www.longines.com/certificate-of-authenticity
> 
> Choose or tell them you want the history of your watch via email. Send pics of the watch and serial number. That's what I did. Took a few days.
> 
> Cheers.


Thanks for clearing that up, general customer service didn't even point me back to the Certificate of Authenticity service.


----------



## signum8

Tikim said:


> Hello,
> 
> I think there is a misunderstanding here, although it's maybe just me who misunderstood the whole conversation.
> 
> The 64.111 movement replaces other parts of the Longines quartz collection, but not the Longines Conquest VHP (2017-present) series. Not the 3-hander, not the chrono and not the GMT. The 64.111 movement is inferior to the L288 movement in many ways.


The confusion was on my side. Thanks for clearing it up, koolpep and Tikim as well as providing photos and a verifiable source from Longines.

Much appreciated! :-!


----------



## signum8

On the 50m or 50bar water resistance, Longines does certify it for swimming and snorkeling. So regular splashes are not a problem. I tend to think that chemicals whether shampoo or whatever your hands come into contact with might not be good for the seals. Then there is aging. So testing is a good thing. Anyway, here is Longines WR notes:

https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/userguide/technical/pdf/EN_Screw_down1.pdf


----------



## tomchicago

Why does the base VHP movement (not chrono) have 3 coils? Is there a greatly reduced gear train then?


----------



## Tom-HK

tomchicago said:


> Why does the base VHP movement (not chrono) have 3 coils? Is there a greatly reduced gear train then?


Where you need to have hands moving independently of each other then you can't have a traditional gear train (or, at least, it would be easier not to). The perpetual calendar and the ability to move the hour hand independently of the minute hand (for example in the switch between 'home' and 'local' time) would typically require independent stepper motors.


----------



## DaveM

tomchicago said:


> Why does the base VHP movement (not chrono) have 3 coils? Is there a greatly reduced gear train then?


Calendar, seconds, hours geared to minutes.
This has a lot of advantages.
Because the seconds hand is on its own it can be driven more accurately.
Time and time-zone adjustments are much easier to make because the minute/hour motor can quickly change the indicated time
The seconds-hand can be set to zero during time adjustment or 'parked' to save power.


----------



## TraserH3

Got the 41mm blue GMT version just now. Made the decision to get this watch in couple hours because of it's uniqueness and technical to price proposition. My prediction is this piece (GMT version with flash setting) will one day become a highly collectable piece. Here are the factors (I don't really care for Longines brand, have not handled one ever):

1. The thermocompensated ETA quartz capable of +- 5 sec/year
2. Price around $1000 which no other HAQ watch can meet even with 10 sec/year rating
3. Unique flash setting via the photo sensor and a smartphone and the Longines app. This is very unique

I tell myself don't wear this piece and just keep it locked away but I think I'll be wearing it for sure!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

TraserH3 said:


> 2. Price around $1000 which no other HAQ watch can meet even with 10 sec/year rating


Certina and JDM Seiko both sell good HAQ for well under $1k. Citizen used to; not sure if they still do.

That said, the VHP GMT is a very nice watch, and I'm vicariously thrilled that you have one and love it. |>b-)


----------



## TraserH3

watchcrank said:


> Certina and JDM Seiko both sell good HAQ for well under $1k. Citizen used to; not sure if they still do.
> 
> That said, the VHP GMT is a very nice watch, and I'm vicariously thrilled that you have one and love it. |>b-)


Thanks! Do you know if those are 5 sec/yr rated?
Will definitely be enjoying this unique piece!


----------



## watchcrank_tx

TraserH3 said:


> Thanks! Do you know if those are 5 sec/yr rated?
> Will definitely be enjoying this unique piece!


The Seiko Dolce line are 10 spy. I believe the Citizen Exceed were too, but my memory is fuzzy. The Certinas have also been rated 10 spy whether or not they had a COSC certificate (the COSC quartz requiements being far wider than 10 spy though tighter than they used to be back when my Swatch chronometer chronograph was certified in the early 2000s).

The Longines is a better watch than the low end Seikos, Citizens, and three-hand Certinas, no doubt. You are right to prize and enjoy it! b-)


----------



## TraserH3

Was wondering if I missed some models in my research that also have 5sec/yr rating or better. I know there is the Citizen with 1sec/yr but it's crazy expensive.


----------



## ronalddheld

TraserH3 said:


> Was wondering if I missed some models in my research that also have 5sec/yr rating or better. I know there is the Citizen with 1sec/yr but it's crazy expensive.


In current production, only caliber 0100 has better specs than 5 s/y.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

TraserH3 said:


> Was wondering if I missed some models in my research that also have 5sec/yr rating or better. I know there is the Citizen with 1sec/yr but it's crazy expensive.


Some number of Citizen Chronomaster and The Citizen models are 5 spy, but not I believe all (could be wrong - I am no expert). Various Grand Seiko 9f models - usually marked with a gold star on the dial - are 5spy instead of the usual 10 spy. Every one of the top flight Citizen and Grand Seikos are far more expensive than the VHP. The VHP is a great bargain. They fit funny on my wrist for some reason, but I still debate getting one all the time.


----------



## koolpep

I still love mine. The quick set our hands are cool when flying and not having to stop the movement. Mine is the 2018 41mm normal Conquest VHP.

Enjoy the GMT! It’s a cool watch.


----------



## jrpippen

I’ve only found these watches today, but they look awesome! I’ve been hovering over a 9F for the accuracy, but I think this looks better. Finishing aside etc. Price point is unbeatable.

Gonna take a punt on a second hand 3 hander and if it does what it says on the tin I’m gonna make the GMT a place in the watch box. 


Nice on Longines!


----------



## jrpippen

So guys. . . 

Once and for all: 

Is the VHP aN ETA PreciDrive?


----------



## Tikim

jrpippen said:


> So guys. . .
> 
> Once and for all:
> 
> Is the VHP aN ETA PreciDrive?


Welcome to the VHP world !

No, the VHP family (3 hands, chrono, GMT) embeds new movements with their own characteristics, that only exist for those three watch series. Some of the technologies inside exist in other movements such as the PreciDrive,. but many features here are specific to the Longines VHP: 5 SPY, automatic hands position detection and correction, magnetic field detection, shock detection, perpetual calendar, quick hour setting with the electronic crown, quick flash setting for the GMT version, faster motors, etc. Those movements are unique and can only be found in the VHP series.


----------



## DaveM

Tikim said:


> Welcome to the VHP world !
> 
> No, the VHP family (3 hands, chrono, GMT) embeds new movements with their own characteristics, that only exist for those three watch series. Some of the technologies inside exist in other movements such as the PreciDrive,. but many features here are specific to the Longines VHP: 5 SPY, automatic hands position detection and correction, magnetic field detection, shock detection, perpetual calendar, quick hour setting with the electronic crown, quick flash setting for the GMT version, faster motors, etc. Those movements are unique and can only be found in the VHP series.


For me the key difference, which I think ETA only implement on VHP, is separate motors for seconds and minute hands (hours hand geared to minutes hand). This leads to many of the features listed by Tikim .
I think that it is a major advantage, in particular quick hour-setting works much better than the mechanical system used on the previous 'classic' version of VHP.

Morgenwerk have taken the advantage one step further by making the second-hand multi-purpose
> Park to save power
> Indicate seconds
> Indicate date
> Indicate time-zone
They have replaced the rotary-crown by simple push-buttons, eliminated the date-window and made the date easier to read !

I think that the classic VHP is unique in using 2 (units and decades) motors for the date mechanism.


----------



## tomchicago

Are the hour and minute hands really geared? There are 3 separate coils thus separate stepper motors in the base VHP movement. So is the 3rd motor to advance the date if so?











DaveM said:


> For me the key difference, which I think ETA only implement on VHP, is separate motors for seconds and minute hands (hours hand geared to minutes hand). This leads to many of the features listed by Tikim .
> I think that it is a major advantage, in particular quick hour-setting works much better than the mechanical system used on the previous 'classic' version of VHP.
> 
> Morgenwerk have taken the advantage one step further by making the second-hand multi-purpose
> > Park to save power
> > Indicate seconds
> > Indicate date
> > Indicate time-zone
> They have replaced the rotary-crown by simple push-buttons, eliminated the date-window and made the date easier to read !
> 
> I think that the classic VHP is unique in using 2 (units and decades) motors for the date mechanism.


----------



## DaveM

tomchicago said:


> Are the hour and minute hands really geared? There are 3 separate coils thus separate stepper motors in the base VHP movement. So is the 3rd motor to advance the date if so?
> 
> View attachment 14887757
> 
> 
> Yes, I am 99% confident that this is the case.
> In order to advance the time-zone by 1 hour the minutes motor does a 1-rev spin.
> 
> I think that the green-coil is the date motor, without this February-to-March date-change would normally need 96 revs of the minute motor !
> 
> You can see 2 date-coils on 'classic'VHP (red arrows, the seconds-gear-minutes-gear-hours coil is blue arrow).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On these watches the tens date-index is also used for leap-year indication (unlike new VHP date-cycle setting is user-adjustable).
> The disk can display ' ',1,2,3,I,II,III, or IV so having 2 motors makes 'complicated' date-changes and leap-year-cycle indication a lot nicer.
> 
> I also collect mechanical clocks. If I disable striking and date-change mechanisms the clocks can run with lower weights and are much more reliable.
> So I think that the no-service life of a quartz watch is almost certainly increased by having separate minutes and date motors !


----------



## Pugzilla

Hi,
Just some questions as I'm considering a VHP.
How would the 41mm version fit on 6.7 inch (17cm) wrist?
Is it possible to change the VHP movement battery by yourself or does it need to be serviced by Longines?
Also what battery type does it take? Can't find that info anywhere.
Thanks


----------



## gtuck

Pugzilla said:


> Hi,
> Just some questions as I'm considering a VHP.
> How would the 41mm version fit on 6.7 inch (17cm) wrist?
> Is it possible to change the VHP movement battery by yourself or does it need to be serviced by Longines?
> Also what battery type does it take? Can't find that info anywhere.
> Thanks


My wrist is barely and I mean barely 7 inches and it looks fine. I look off the stainless bracelet and replaced it with a chevron nylon band--lighter and more comfortable. The battery is supposed last between four and five years so there probably isn't anyone with experience changing it themselves. I've seen discussion regarding the type of battery on this forum I believe.


----------



## Tikim

Pugzilla said:


> Hi,
> Just some questions as I'm considering a VHP.
> How would the 41mm version fit on 6.7 inch (17cm) wrist?
> Is it possible to change the VHP movement battery by yourself or does it need to be serviced by Longines?
> Also what battery type does it take? Can't find that info anywhere.
> Thanks


Here is a quote from the official manual:


> Only approved service centres are authorised to change the battery and synchronise
> Conquest V.H.P. watches.


----------



## Barbababa

If you are considering the white dial you have the option of 36mm as well. I have about 18cm (7 inch) and I think the 36mm looks great. I did own the 41mm and it looked good to


----------



## DaveM

You can see from previous pictures in this thread that it is not physically difficult to change the (SR936W) battery.
So long as you replace the battery within 1 day re-synchronisation is not required.


Tikim said:


> Here is a quote from the official manual:


This quote is from the previous version of the manual (snapshot below)
The current version of the manual includes instructions on how to use the new GMT-version, but the battery life-time, battery change, accuracy (and almost all other technical) information has been left out !
It does :-
a) Warn that if you change the battery it invalidates the 2 year warranty
b) Exclude the battery from the warranty. Why ?? the warranty only lasts 2 years


----------



## kip595

Tried one on at the local AD the other day. Nice look, good feel, but between the price and low WR, doubt I'll pick one up anytime soon.


----------



## TraserH3

There is a 36mm version????!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## konax

TraserH3 said:


> There is a 36mm version????!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I guess he meant the regular Conquest, not the VHP


----------



## Tom-HK

There is a 36mm ladies VHP. Well, I suppose a man could wear it, but it's rather shiny.


----------



## skriefal

Tom-HK said:


> There is a 36mm ladies VHP. Well, I suppose a man could wear it, but it's rather shiny.


Loosk good to me. But manufacturer photos can be misleading:

https://shop.us.longines.com/l33164766-conquest-v-h-p-36mm-stainless-steel.html


----------



## watchcrank_tx

skriefal said:


> Loosk good to me. But manufacturer photos can be misleading:
> 
> https://shop.us.longines.com/l33164766-conquest-v-h-p-36mm-stainless-steel.html


I believe that is the one and only 36mm variant that doesn't have a mother-of-pearl dial with rhinestone indices. I wish they made blue and black dial equivalents.


----------



## ronalddheld

https://timeandtidewatches.com/longines-conquest-v-h-p-video/


----------



## Barbababa

Yes. It´s branded as a ladies model. Two dials to choose from. Dark MOP with stones, or a regular white/silver wich is similar to the 41mm model. I think it´s a good size, but would prefer the black LP dial if i would buy one.


----------



## tomchicago

I'd love to see Longines issue a VHP where they clean up the honking big crown and tone down the dial/hands in a thinner/smaller case. Such a great movement this one but I can't do any of the styles unfortunately.


----------



## ronalddheld

How about a dial with all Normal sized Arabic numbers aligned nonradially and remove the crown guards, as a start?


----------



## Barbababa

Does any one have the dimensions of the caliber L288 (e56.111)?


----------



## gaijin

Barbababa said:


> Does any one have the dimensions of the caliber L288 (e56.111)?


Here: https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/detail/cs-use-technical/pdf/longines-technical-information-quartz-en.pdf

Diameter: 12 1/2'" - 28.00 mm
Height: 4.80 mm

HTH


----------



## Helruyn

Hi!


I am interested in getting one V.H.P. I really like the sporty design and the technology inside is awesome (I already have a Tissot T-touch, so not unfamiliar with fancy quartz.  ). 

I like the dark dials, might got for the blue one, but still hesitant with the black or carbon (my T-touch is carbon, so might be redundant).


I had a bunch of questions, but I managed to answer some of them by reading the thread. So here are my remainingquestions:


1) For owners: the watch is now three years old: what are your current feelings?

2) Is accuracy still on track? (btw, I loved all the plots and in this thread).

3) How is the scratch resistance of the steel (case and bracelet)?

4) Is it doable to change the battery ourself? I read we need to send it to the "approved service centres" to "change the battery and synchronise Conquest V.H.P. watches". But what about only changing the battery before it is dead (so no need to synchronise the perpetual calendar)? The warranty is only 2 years anyway.

5) Finally, and probably the most tricky part: are the second hand hits precisely the markers in general? Due to lockdown in UK, I will likely order it via website (but from a chain which also has physical stores), so one of my fear is getting a watch where the second hand does not hit precisely the markers, which would be a shame (but I could always return it back).


Thank you in advance!


----------



## konax

Helruyn said:


> Hi!
> 
> I am interested in getting one V.H.P. I really like the sporty design and the technology inside is awesome (I already have a Tissot T-touch, so not unfamiliar with fancy quartz.  ).
> 
> I like the dark dials, might got for the blue one, but still hesitant with the black or carbon (my T-touch is carbon, so might be redundant).
> 
> I had a bunch of questions, but I managed to answer some of them by reading the thread. So here are my remainingquestions:
> 
> 1) For owners: the watch is now three years old: what are your current feelings?
> 
> 2) Is accuracy still on track? (btw, I loved all the plots and in this thread).
> 
> 3) How is the scratch resistance of the steel (case and bracelet)?
> 
> 4) Is it doable to change the battery ourself? I read we need to send it to the "approved service centres" to "change the battery and synchronise Conquest V.H.P. watches". But what about only changing the battery before it is dead (so no need to synchronise the perpetual calendar)? The warranty is only 2 years anyway.
> 
> 5) Finally, and probably the most tricky part: are the second hand hits precisely the markers in general? Due to lockdown in UK, I will likely order it via website (but from a chain which also has physical stores), so one of my fear is getting a watch where the second hand does not hit precisely the markers, which would be a shame (but I could always return it back).
> 
> Thank you in advance!


1) I should have bought it on strap, not the bracelet - it's a bit too heavy, eventually had to put it on a Barton silicone. I thought about buying the OEM rubber separate, but it's too damn expensive now. Other than that, it's a great "grab and go" watch. Lume is great, this is something rarely mentioned. Also I can use it to regulate all my autos.
2) By eye measurement (useless, I know) mine gained about 2 seconds in a little over a year.
3) Brushed surfaces looks almost like new, few hairline scratches on polished parts, mostly the bezel.
4) No idea.
5) I handled two different ones in the store (blue 43 and white 41) and they seemed to be spot on. When I received mine (blue 41) it was spot on too, now it looks like it's off in certain spots - but looking that super close you can never be quite sure if it's really off, or just your own eyes deceiving you because of some weird angle. 12 o'clock marker looks to be dead center.


----------



## GMT-man

Helruyn said:


> 4) Is it doable to change the battery ourself? I read we need to send it to the "approved service centres" to "change the battery and synchronise Conquest V.H.P. watches". But what about only changing the battery before it is dead (so no need to synchronise the perpetual calendar)? The warranty is only 2 years anyway.


I do not really see why not? As long as you can do it in less than 30 minutes (battery out, to keep the perpetual calendar running), which should be easy enough if you have the right kind of battery ready. With 50m WR do not worry about pressure testing... Light swipe of the gasket with silicone sprayed Q-tip should take away the worry about ruining the O-ring during reassembly.

Synchronising V.H.P. watches must mean resetting the calendar if the watch has been off-power for too long, normal battery change does not cause that to happen.


----------



## OutOfSpec

GMT-man said:


> I do not really see why not? As long as you can do it in less than 30 minutes (battery out, to keep the perpetual calendar running), which should be easy enough if you have the right kind of battery ready. With 50m WR do not worry about pressure testing... Light swipe of the gasket with silicone sprayed Q-tip should take away the worry about ruining the O-ring during reassembly.
> 
> Synchronising V.H.P. watches must mean resetting the calendar if the watch has been off-power for too long, normal battery change does not cause that to happen.


New battery is a dud, battery plate cover screw goes missing...all of a sudden it's been over 24 hours and you have to send the watch back to Swatch anyway to get the perpetual calendar reset. I'd only have it changed by them...


----------



## Barbababa

OutOfSpec said:


> New battery is a dud, battery plate cover screw goes missing...all of a sudden it's been over 24 hours and you have to send the watch back to Swatch anyway to get the perpetual calendar reset. I'd only have it changed by them...


I would not recommend any one who is not familiar with battery change, or have the proper tools to do it them self. If you are, no problems


----------



## signum8

What's the operating temperature of the VHP Conquest?


----------



## gaborv

Hi,

I bought brand new Longines VHP Chronograph (L3.717.4.56.6) two months ago from AD, unfortunately yesterday morning seconds hand started to jump in 5 seconds increment. According to user manual it means battery low (EOL). And by today morning all hands settled at 12 o'clock. This means battery in end of energy status (EOE). 

Firstly I thought I simply got a bad battery in the brand new watch, despite this is very unlikely. However the very quick draining of energy is a sign that something is very bad within the movement, i.e. it is draining the energy too quickly.

I'm extremely disappointed ((

Anyone experienced similar symptoms?

(Of course I will visit authorised service station tomorrow and see how they can cure the otherwise nice watch.)


----------



## OutOfSpec

gaborv said:


> Hi,
> 
> I bought brand new Longines VHP Chronograph (L3.717.4.56.6) two months ago from AD, unfortunately yesterday morning seconds hand started to jump in 5 seconds increment. According to user manual it means battery low (EOL). And by today morning all hands settled at 12 o'clock. This means battery in end of energy status (EOE).
> 
> Firstly I thought I simply got a bad battery in the brand new watch, despite this is very unlikely. However the very quick draining of energy is a sign that something is very bad within the movement, i.e. it is draining the energy too quickly.
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed ((
> 
> Anyone experienced similar symptoms?
> 
> (Of course I will visit authorised service station tomorrow and see how they can cure the otherwise nice watch.)


Perhaps Swatch will give you a new one since you're under warranty. Good luck!


----------



## Barbababa

gaborv said:


> Hi,
> 
> I bought brand new Longines VHP Chronograph (L3.717.4.56.6) two months ago from AD, unfortunately yesterday morning seconds hand started to jump in 5 seconds increment. According to user manual it means battery low (EOL). And by today morning all hands settled at 12 o'clock. This means battery in end of energy status (EOE).
> 
> Firstly I thought I simply got a bad battery in the brand new watch, despite this is very unlikely. However the very quick draining of energy is a sign that something is very bad within the movement, i.e. it is draining the energy too quickly.
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed ((
> 
> Anyone experienced similar symptoms?
> 
> (Of course I will visit authorised service station tomorrow and see how they can cure the otherwise nice watch.)


That sucks. If a new battery won´t do the trick you are in for a long wait I´d say :-(


----------



## gaborv

Barbababa said:


> That sucks. If a new battery won´t do the trick you are in for a long wait I´d say :-(


Update: Service tried with new battery and concluded the power drain rate is absolutely normal, however the watch lost perpetual calendar. This is a pure sign something is wrong because after entering EOE mode (all hands at 12 o'clock) it should keep time in memory for 6 (!) months. It was failing to do it for 1 day...... They simply do not understand it, and they will contact manufacturer to clarify..... I smell it will be a loooooong wait till they will repair it (I doubt), or they will conclude: it should be replaced. (The question is if movement will be replaced or entire watch.)

One thing is sure, and needless to say, I'm absolutely disappointed in this "quality". Maybe just a unique thing, we will see in the future if this is a larger scale problem with VHP models........

(And also a BIG question how and how quick Longines will handle this problem..... as a premium priced manufacturer I would expect a replacement watch by DHL in 2 days, but this is very far from reality )))))))

Also started to think about an automatic watch, even if it needs weekly setting of time, and 5 times per year setting of date. I started giving up the wish for a " set and forget, care free" watch...... Btw in the first two months the VHP was perfect time keeper, was fast by approx half sec only.


----------



## tmathes

gaborv said:


> . I started giving up the wish for a " set and forget, care free" watch...... Btw in the first two months the VHP was perfect time keeper, was fast by approx half sec only.


If you receive the appropriate shortwave radio signal a "NEVER set it and forget it" watch is an RC model like Citizen, Seiko and Casio make. Another option is a GPS watch. Both versions will set themselves even initially upon signal reception so you don't even have to mess with getting it set to the right time out of the box.

Neither option is HAQ but they're the ideal if you want completely zero-interaction and know your watch is always spot on (even after a Daylight Saving change). And being solar is the extra bonus.


----------



## gaborv

tmathes said:


> If you receive the appropriate shortwave radio signal a "NEVER set it and forget it" watch is an RC model like Citizen, Seiko and Casio make. Another option is a GPS watch. Both versions will set themselves even initially upon signal reception so you don't even have to mess with getting it set to the right time out of the box.
> 
> Neither option is HAQ but they're the ideal if you want completely zero-interaction and know your watch is always spot on (even after a Daylight Saving change). And being solar is the extra bonus.


Yeah, thanks, I'm over this phase. Radio is quite unreliable in my area, especially next to bed (i.e. far from window, if I wake up in the night I like to see the watch) it is rarely syncing with DC77. So I sold my nice Citizen, Casio radio controlled watches long time ago. GPS needs visible sky, which is quite problematic in the winter months, -but tbh I never had this type-.

So, when after a while I "suffered" checking if radio sync was good or not (I know it is my fault )))) I started to look around. Then I had a Oceanus, syncing with iPhone, however it works only when app is running in the background, and I regularly delete all apps from memory, i.e. then killing sync possibility later in the night. Anyhow, after all these things....... I wanted full independence, lets see HAQ watches......... Then I bought The Citizen, which is really an amazing watch, unfortunately that seems very small on wrist (especially the dial and hands are too small by design), so went back to dealer. Then I saw Certina Precidrive diver announced last winter. I did not like on wrist, somehow it was plastic like, so did not buy.

So this was "my route" and then I arrived to VHP by this April. Actually I loved it for two months (on paper 42mm, in reality 41mm, but fine), unfortunately it is now a huge disappointment because of the mentioned breakdown. Hopefully this is 1. an isolated issue, 2. they will solve it quickly.

(Very long time ago -15 yrs- I had Fortis Cosmonaute, that was nice looking, but two weeks after the setting it was regularly 30-40 sec off, and I did not like this fact. Especially the reliability of difference was not constant. All you know, depending on temperature, daily activity, resting position during night, etc. effecting accuracy. Tbh, I started to think about it, but I'm sure, by now I'm in too much in love with the independence and "fire and forget" concept )))))


----------



## GMT-man

gaborv said:


> Yeah, thanks, I'm over this phase. Radio is quite unreliable in my area, especially next to bed (i.e. far from window, if I wake up in the night I like to see the watch) it is rarely syncing with DC77. So I sold my nice Citizen, Casio radio controlled watches long time ago. GPS needs visible sky, which is quite problematic in the winter months, -but tbh I never had this type-.
> 
> So, when after a while I "suffered" checking if radio sync was good or not (I know it is my fault )))) I started to look around. Then I had a Oceanus, syncing with iPhone, however it works only when app is running in the background, and I regularly delete all apps from memory, i.e. then killing sync possibility later in the night. Anyhow, after all these things....... I wanted full independence, lets see HAQ watches......... Then I bought The Citizen, which is really an amazing watch, unfortunately that seems very small on wrist (especially the dial and hands are too small by design), so went back to dealer. Then I saw Certina Precidrive diver announced last winter. I did not like on wrist, somehow it was plastic like, so did not buy.
> 
> So this was "my route" and then I arrived to VHP by this April. Actually I loved it for two months (on paper 42mm, in reality 41mm, but fine), unfortunately it is now a huge disappointment because of the mentioned breakdown. Hopefully this is 1. an isolated issue, 2. they will solve it quickly.
> 
> (Very long time ago -15 yrs- I had Fortis Cosmonaute, that was nice looking, but two weeks after the setting it was regularly 30-40 sec off, and I did not like this fact. Especially the reliability of difference was not constant. All you know, depending on temperature, daily activity, resting position during night, etc. effecting accuracy. Tbh, I started to think about it, but I'm sure, by now I'm in too much in love with the independence and "fire and forget" concept )))))


You should look at Grand Seiko 9F series HAQ watches. They are +-10 SPY or better and come in various styles. They are a step up in quality (and price...) from the V.H.P.. This is the one I have, running at +5 SPY, diameter perfect 39mm:


----------



## Barbababa

gaborv said:


> Yeah, thanks, I'm over this phase. Radio is quite unreliable in my area, especially next to bed (i.e. far from window, if I wake up in the night I like to see the watch) it is rarely syncing with DC77. So I sold my nice Citizen, Casio radio controlled watches long time ago. GPS needs visible sky, which is quite problematic in the winter months, -but tbh I never had this type-.
> 
> So, when after a while I "suffered" checking if radio sync was good or not (I know it is my fault )))) I started to look around. Then I had a Oceanus, syncing with iPhone, however it works only when app is running in the background, and I regularly delete all apps from memory, i.e. then killing sync possibility later in the night. Anyhow, after all these things....... I wanted full independence, lets see HAQ watches......... Then I bought The Citizen, which is really an amazing watch, unfortunately that seems very small on wrist (especially the dial and hands are too small by design), so went back to dealer. Then I saw Certina Precidrive diver announced last winter. I did not like on wrist, somehow it was plastic like, so did not buy.
> 
> So this was "my route" and then I arrived to VHP by this April. Actually I loved it for two months (on paper 42mm, in reality 41mm, but fine), unfortunately it is now a huge disappointment because of the mentioned breakdown. Hopefully this is 1. an isolated issue, 2. they will solve it quickly.
> 
> (Very long time ago -15 yrs- I had Fortis Cosmonaute, that was nice looking, but two weeks after the setting it was regularly 30-40 sec off, and I did not like this fact. Especially the reliability of difference was not constant. All you know, depending on temperature, daily activity, resting position during night, etc. effecting accuracy. Tbh, I started to think about it, but I'm sure, by now I'm in too much in love with the independence and "fire and forget" concept )))))


Seiko Astron GPS does not need a clear sky, just sky ;-) As long as you are outdoors it will synchronize 100% of the times. indoors not at all 
I really feel sorry for you with the VHP :-( In my experience the AD and the manufacturer will try to find the problem and in the end put in a new movement if nessesary. So you will most likely not get a new watch. And, that will take time... And you must inspect your watch wery carefully before leaving the boutiqe to see that it´s ok. It sure sucks! I hope you are in luck.


----------



## gaborv

GMT-man said:


> You should look at Grand Seiko 9F series HAQ watches. They are +-10 SPY or better and come in various styles. They are a step up in quality (and price...) from the V.H.P.. This is the one I have, running at +5 SPY, diameter perfect 39mm:
> 
> View attachment 15181193


Thank you, I saw several GS, however all without lume (( This one has, and looks good, I will visit Seiko AD.


----------



## gaborv

Barbababa said:


> Seiko Astron GPS does not need a clear sky, just sky ;-) As long as you are outdoors it will synchronize 100% of the times. indoors not at all
> I really feel sorry for you with the VHP :-( In my experience the AD and the manufacturer will try to find the problem and in the end put in a new movement if nessesary. So you will most likely not get a new watch. And, that will take time... And you must inspect your watch wery carefully before leaving the boutiqe to see that it´s ok. It sure sucks! I hope you are in luck.


Yeah, sky......  , as I read in manual it starts a sync sequence when it sees it is outdoor (i.e. I guess it senses if it is in brighter light conditions). However in winter time it will miss mostly, especially if under long coat. Also again I will be "slave of watch" start looking every few days if sync was successful )))) So, I vote for full independence )))

After two days I calmed down. Things go wrong (a perfect car can break down), however if the watch (car) is good and fullfills my requirements, then simply I have to wait for solution/repair/change. Overall I liked the watch (good look, IAHH, long battery life....LOL, quality, perpetual calendar, fly by wire, etc.), it is a true technically perfect watch for me. So instead of abandoning this, I have to wait...... patiently... LOL.. Yeah, I agree, I do not need new watch, just new movement AND it is CRITICAL to check it before leaving shop. The first VHP I had has suffered from minute hand alignment problem, and because it is fly by wire, it is critical to check it. (As it is a chronograph, the seconds hand is np, as very small.)

Thanks for good words/advice!


----------



## DaveM

gaborv said:


> Update: Service tried with new battery and concluded the power drain rate is absolutely normal, however the watch lost perpetual calendar. This is a pure sign something is wrong because after entering EOE mode (all hands at 12 o'clock) it should keep time in memory for 6 (!) months. It was failing to do it for 1 day...... They simply do not understand it, and they will contact manufacturer to clarify..... I smell it will be a loooooong wait till they will repair it (I doubt), or they will conclude: it should be replaced. (The question is if movement will be replaced or entire watch.)
> 
> One thing is sure, and needless to say, I'm absolutely disappointed in this "quality". Maybe just a unique thing, we will see in the future if this is a larger scale problem with VHP models........
> 
> (And also a BIG question how and how quick Longines will handle this problem..... as a premium priced manufacturer I would expect a replacement watch by DHL in 2 days, but this is very far from reality )))))))


Even from the best manufacturer there is the occasional watch that has problems.
So long as this event is rare it can be an opportunity for the manufacturer to exhibit the excellence of their after-sales service.
I hope that Longines provide excellent service ( like replacement watch in 2 days) !

When deciding which brand to consider my priorities are :-
1) Quality of product
2) After sales service
3) Marketing material
I think that (3) may have the highest short-term impact on sales, in the long-term 3) without 1) and 2) leads to decline!


----------



## gaborv

DaveM said:


> Even from the best manufacturer there is the occasional watch that has problems.
> So long as this event is rare it can be an opportunity for the manufacturer to exhibit the excellence of their after-sales service.
> I hope that Longines provide excellent service ( like replacement watch in 2 days) !
> 
> When deciding which brand to consider my priorities are :-
> 1) Quality of product
> 2) After sales service
> 3) Marketing material
> I think that (3) may have the highest short-term impact on sales, in the long-term 3) without 1) and 2) leads to decline!


Thank you, I agree 1000%, BUT Houston, we have a problem:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/e-o-l-already-my-v-h-p-4603823.html

Exactly this is what happened to my watch!!!!! I hope service now will not investigate the problem for 3-4 months!!!!!! Unfortunately it seems this is a TYPICAL error for VHP....... I think, despite I did not want, have to consider some other watch....... ((((((


----------



## skriefal

gaborv said:


> Update: Service tried with new battery and concluded the power drain rate is absolutely normal, however the watch lost perpetual calendar. This is a pure sign something is wrong because after entering EOE mode (all hands at 12 o'clock) it should keep time in memory for 6 (!) months. It was failing to do it for 1 day...... They simply do not understand it, and they will contact manufacturer to clarify..... I smell it will be a loooooong wait till they will repair it (I doubt), or they will conclude: it should be replaced. (The question is if movement will be replaced or entire watch.)


Bad battery? EOE mode would still be powered from the battery.


----------



## Tikim

gaborv said:


> Update: Service tried with new battery and concluded the power drain rate is absolutely normal, however the watch lost perpetual calendar. This is a pure sign something is wrong because after entering EOE mode (all hands at 12 o'clock) it should keep time in memory for 6 (!) months. It was failing to do it for 1 day...... They simply do not understand it, and they will contact manufacturer to clarify..... I smell it will be a loooooong wait till they will repair it (I doubt), or they will conclude: it should be replaced. (The question is if movement will be replaced or entire watch.)
> 
> One thing is sure, and needless to say, I'm absolutely disappointed in this "quality". Maybe just a unique thing, we will see in the future if this is a larger scale problem with VHP models........
> 
> (And also a BIG question how and how quick Longines will handle this problem..... as a premium priced manufacturer I would expect a replacement watch by DHL in 2 days, but this is very far from reality )))))))
> 
> Also started to think about an automatic watch, even if it needs weekly setting of time, and 5 times per year setting of date. I started giving up the wish for a " set and forget, care free" watch...... Btw in the first two months the VHP was perfect time keeper, was fast by approx half sec only.


Sorry to hear about this issue. Out of curiosity, which service are you mentioning here ? Is it an official Longines/Swatch Group service ?


----------



## gaborv

Tikim said:


> Sorry to hear about this issue. Out of curiosity, which service are you mentioning here ? Is it an official Longines/Swatch Group service ?


Update: So, the service (local, authorised by Longines) called me today that the watch is ready (!). I collected the patient and talked with them a little. They told that the battery was empty (below 1.25V) for some reason, probably it was a defective one (Renata type). The current consumption is 1.59 uA of the movement which is perfectly normal, i.e. no short circuit, no major error. They do not understand why watch memory did not hold the perpetual calendar data which should be in the brain for 6 months after watch enters in EOE mode, and they had to contact Swiss guys, then made a complete reset, and then reprogram the watch which "needs quite a long time". I.e. it can be done locally, not necessary to send back to factory. They inserted an Energizer type battery, hopefully will survive the next 4 years as claimed in user manual. Fingers crossed...... (The only question is if this repeats at next battery change, when out of warranty period...., i.e. a normal battery change needs 2 days because memory lost, and can be done only in an authorised service.)


----------



## gaborv

And if we talked a lot about him  , here is a pic:


----------



## DaveM

gaborv said:


> Update: So, the service (local, authorised by Longines) called me today that the watch is ready (!). I collected the patient and talked with them a little. They told that the battery was empty (below 1.25V) for some reason, probably it was a defective one (Renata type). The current consumption is 1.59 uA of the movement which is perfectly normal, i.e. no short circuit, no major error. They do not understand why watch memory did not hold the perpetual calendar data which should be in the brain for 6 months after watch enters in EOE mode, and they had to contact Swiss guys, then made a complete reset, and then reprogram the watch which "needs quite a long time". I.e. it can be done locally, not necessary to send back to factory. They inserted an Energizer type battery, hopefully will survive the next 4 years as claimed in user manual. Fingers crossed...... (The only question is if this repeats at next battery change, when out of warranty period...., i.e. a normal battery change needs 2 days because memory lost, and can be done only in an authorised service.)


*I am not an expert on batteries, but the symptoms could make sense*
During EOE mode the watch uses less current (hands parked) but the computer is still running (to drive the date-memory).
A good battery will take more than 6-months to go from 'volts dangerously low' to 'computer stops working and the date is lost'. 
For a faulty-battery the warning-period may be only a few days, or could be minutes if the battery suddenly dies due to a broken 'micro-wire'.
Once the main battery has failed we still have the emergency battery' (capacitor) provided to allow for battery-change, but this is only good for about 30 minutes.

*It is good that they could re-program locally*.
My thought would be that if it is a battery-fault the problem is solved, if a movement fault it will probably recur quite soon.
There is no reason to think that the next (after 4 years) battery-change will be problematical.

*The problem is probably solved, but I will keep my fingers crossed for you !*


----------



## Robert999

694C1ED6-BE05-4290-B909-50B0DC130D54 by Robert, on Flickr


----------



## a1awan

Hello everyone
This is my first post here and I will start with oneof those questions whose answer should be included in any review or discussion about any specific watch: weight.
Whenever I search for the weight of watch it's really difficult to find it and when I succeed it takes a good amount of time.

I've been looking at the Longines Conquest VHP SS and intend to use it as a toolwatch at the job as a train manager. I like watches between 40 and 45 mm, but weight has a lot to say before I choose. The ideal weight for me is 120-200 gram. When I had the Seamaster Planet Ocean Chronograph, weighing 260 gram it was a relief to take it off when back home after work.

I had a challenge in deciding between the white and blue dial. After days of considerations I concluded the white dial would possibly be more easy to read quickly. On the other hand the visual look was way more beautiful on the blue dial. Normally I don't prefer white dials as they are not dynamic and sporty as more colorful dials or bezels but here it's all about reading precise time (minutes and seconds) in fewest possible milliseconds,

Now who can tell the weight of the Conquest VHP 41mm and 43mm?
Any contribution in these questions are more than welcome......


----------



## ronalddheld

a1awan said:


> Hello everyone
> This is my first post here and I will start with oneof those questions whose answer should be included in any review or discussion about any specific watch: weight.
> Whenever I search for the weight of watch it's really difficult to find it and when I succeed it takes a good amount of time.
> 
> I've been looking at the Longines Conquest VHP SS and intend to use it as a toolwatch at the job as a train manager. I like watches between 40 and 45 mm, but weight has a lot to say before I choose. The ideal weight for me is 120-200 gram. When I had the Seamaster Planet Ocean Chronograph, weighing 260 gram it was a relief to take it off when back home after work.
> 
> I had a challenge in deciding between the white and blue dial. After days of considerations I concluded the white dial would possibly be more easy to read quickly. On the other hand the visual look was way more beautiful on the blue dial. Normally I don't prefer white dials as they are not dynamic and sporty as more colorful dials or bezels but here it's all about reading precise time (minutes and seconds) in fewest possible milliseconds,
> 
> Now who can tell the weight of the Conquest VHP 41mm and 43mm?
> Any contribution in these questions are more than welcome......


Welcome. Did you find any weights by searching this thread, and then this forum?


----------



## a1awan

Thanks Ronald
I ran through the first 15 pages of this thread but found no mention of weight. Then I looked at the last couple of pages too...still no hit. Can not rule there are posts in this thread telling the weight....a little help would indeed be appreciated.


----------



## konax

a1awan said:


> Thanks Ronald
> I ran through the first 15 pages of this thread but found no mention of weight. Then I looked at the last couple of pages too...still no hit. Can not rule there are posts in this thread telling the weight....a little help would indeed be appreciated.


Weighed my 41: head only is 71 grams, with bracelet (adjusted for my 17.5 cm wrist) is 154 grams. I used a kitchen scale so it might be off a few grams.


----------



## a1awan

konax said:


> Weighed my 41: head only is 71 grams, with bracelet (adjusted for my 17.5 cm wrist) is 154 grams. I used a kitchen scale so it might be off a few grams.


Thanks a lot for your help Konax...that sounds acceptable.
Of course I would take the 43mm if the difference is not too much, up to160-165 gram.


----------



## JesseBertone

I'm not buying one, but that blue dial sure is nice. I'd like to see one in person to better analyze if i'd want one.


----------



## Helruyn

Thanks for your reply to my previous message on the Conquest!

Last weekend I finally jump into it and bought a Conquest V.H.P. 41mm, with blue dial. Very happy with it so far.

I bought it in a A.D. and it was the one in display. So I was able to carefully check that the second hand aligns with the indices, otherwise it would have been a no-go.

I like all the small details on the dial and all the features (Smart crown for fast time setting, perpetual calendar, 1/6e movement for minute hand, sleep mode for battery saving, E.O.L, E.O.D, GPD system).

Regarding the weight, it is 146 gr (both head + bracelet in stainless steel).

I will keep an eye on the precision over the next months.


----------



## gtuck

Helruyn said:


> Thanks for your reply to my previous message on the Conquest!
> 
> Last weekend I finally jump into it and bought a Conquest V.H.P. 41mm, with blue dial. Very happy with it so far.
> 
> I bought it in a A.D. and it was the one in display. So I was able to carefully check that the second hand aligns with the indices, otherwise it would have been a no-go.
> 
> I like all the small details on the dial and all the features (Smart crown for fast time setting, perpetual calendar, 1/6e movement for minute hand, sleep mode for battery saving, E.O.L, E.O.D, GPD system).
> 
> Regarding the weight, it is 146 gr (both head + bracelet in stainless steel).
> 
> I will keep an eye on the precision over the next months.
> 
> View attachment 15340886


Congratulations!! Hope you love your VHP as much as I love mine.


----------



## gaborv

According to this info after inserting new battery there will be a “setting request” to program PC.

Text:

“If the watch battery is changed in E.O.L. mode or within around six months of entering E.O.E. mode, there will be no need to adjust the perpetual calendar. If this is not the case, when the watch battery is inserted, the perpetual calendar programming will be automatically displayed with a setting request.”

Anybody has an idea what is this “setting request”, how it works exactly? Maybe a brave person - not me)) - can remove battery for one hour, replace and see what happens. (Obviously risking it must be sent to authorized service station to reprogram.) Or maybe somebody has a friend at service station who can reveal how to do reprogramming. (I guess it is not a rocket science.)


----------



## konax

All I know it is not done via the crown, the watch needs to be (partially) disassembled


----------



## DaveM

gaborv said:


> According to this info after inserting new battery there will be a "setting request" to program PC.
> 
> Text:
> 
> "If the watch battery is changed in E.O.L. mode or within around six months of entering E.O.E. mode, there will be no need to adjust the perpetual calendar. If this is not the case, when the watch battery is inserted, *the perpetual calendar programming will be automatically displayed with a setting request*."


I did not notice this sentence in the manual.
But what does it mean ? 
How can the watch display 'perpetual calendar programming' or make a 'setting request' ?

The previous version of the manual was very clear :-
_If the battery is exhausted ( or removed from the movement more than one day ), the
watch needs to be totally resynchronised (reprogrammed). All the functions are affected.
If the battery is removed from the movement less than one day, only the hour needs to
be resynchronised.
Only approved service centres are authorised to change the battery and synchronise
Conquest V.H.P. watches._

The previous VHP had leap-year legends on its date-wheel, ie 
30
31
I
II
III
IV
1
I wonder if the current one has ?
Next time I am awake at midnight on the last day of the month I will watch a date-change !


----------



## cheznous

What I find interesting is that my wife has a Longines ladies quartz which admittedly cost more than the VHP. After 9 months ownership the VHP is five seconds fast whilst her watch is just 2 seconds slow. Go figure.


----------



## Helruyn

gaborv said:


> According to this info after inserting new battery there will be a "setting request" to program PC.
> 
> Text:
> 
> "If the watch battery is changed in E.O.L. mode or within around six months of entering E.O.E. mode, there will be no need to adjust the perpetual calendar. If this is not the case, when the watch battery is inserted, the perpetual calendar programming will be automatically displayed with a setting request."
> 
> Anybody has an idea what is this "setting request", how it works exactly? Maybe a brave person - not me)) - can remove battery for one hour, replace and see what happens. (Obviously risking it must be sent to authorized service station to reprogram.) Or maybe somebody has a friend at service station who can reveal how to do reprogramming. (I guess it is not a rocket science.)


No, as I understand, the "setting request" would only occurred when you change the battery if the battery was fully exhausted. During E.O.L/E.O.E you need to change the battery within a day. Then the perpentual could continue as normal. If the battery is exhausted, then the perpentual calendar stop running and needs to be reprogrammed, at the factory.


----------



## Helruyn

DaveM said:


> I did not notice this sentence in the manual.
> But what does it mean ?
> How can the watch display 'perpetual calendar programming' or make a 'setting request' ?
> 
> The previous version of the manual was very clear :-
> _If the battery is exhausted ( or removed from the movement more than one day ), the
> watch needs to be totally resynchronised (reprogrammed). All the functions are affected.
> If the battery is removed from the movement less than one day, only the hour needs to
> be resynchronised.
> Only approved service centres are authorised to change the battery and synchronise
> Conquest V.H.P. watches._
> 
> The previous VHP had leap-year legends on its date-wheel, ie
> 30
> 31
> I
> II
> III
> IV
> 1
> I wonder if the current one has ?
> Next time I am awake at midnight on the last day of the month I will watch a date-change !


There is a video on Youtube for the passage of date: 




Spoiler alert: 30-31-Logo Longines-1-2


----------



## DaveM

Helruyn said:


> There is a video on Youtube for the passage of date:


Thanks for that.
Just speculation but the 'Longines' symbol between 31 and 1 could mean 'calendar needs to be re-programmed'.


----------



## signum8

I just checked my Blue 43mm VHP Conquest that I recorded as hacked May 5th. Still has not budged a second as of Jul 18th. People have their grail watches. Mine is the one that keeps the time and hits the marks. For $1100, I'm there.


----------



## Tomc1944

Just got mine and iLove it.


----------



## gtuck

signum8 said:


> I just checked my Blue 43mm VHP Conquest that I recorded as hacked May 5th. Still has not budged a second as of Jul 18th. People have their grail watches. Mine is the one that keeps the time and hits the marks. For $1100, I'm there.


I think mine would run about +2s/y if I wore it every day. Putting it down while wearing other watches tends to have it run a bit faster. Absolutely love this watch! Perhaps should have gotten the GMT version but frankly, my traveling days are probably over.


----------



## Tikim

cheznous said:


> What I find interesting is that my wife has a Longines ladies quartz which admittedly cost more than the VHP. After 9 months ownership the VHP is five seconds fast whilst her watch is just 2 seconds slow. Go figure.


5s in 9 months is slightly too much. How often do you wear it ?

If you wear it every day, it should be much less than that.


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## cheznous

Tikim said:


> 5s in 9 months is slightly too much. How often do you wear it ?
> 
> If you wear it every day, it should be much less than that.


I accept that as I don't wear it every day. But the point is many high end quartz watches are very accurate anyway.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DaveM

Tikim said:


> 5s in 9 months is slightly too much. How often do you wear it ?
> 
> If you wear it every day, it should be much less than that.


*Its all about statistics.*
For critical timing applications a quality-controller might specify
-- Within 5spy over 10 to 35C case-temperature to a 6-sigma confidence level

*The Longines-VHP would not be in the right ball-park*
When worn all the time perhaps 5spy to 3-sigma ?
I am sure that Longines QA people apply strict statistical accuracy-limits to their production
-- But their limits will be 'top secret', 5spy is 'on a good day' number for the sales people.

*But to be objective about it*
-- Most VHP are probably within 5spy when worn
-- The limits applied to the current VHP are probably narrower than those applied to the previous (10spy) version.
-- Some examples of 'not VHP' watches might be within 5spy within a narrow range of case temperatures.
-- The Longines VHP that I have is within 15spy, I only adjust it once a year ( on new-years day) !


----------



## signum8

Can the VHP be regulated? I was thinking of sending my silver dial model in because it's gaining a second every three weeks. I would guess they have the equipment for it.


----------



## konax

signum8 said:


> Can the VHP be regulated? I was thinking of sending my silver dial model in because it's gaining a second every three weeks. I would guess they have the equipment for it.


By the service center, yes. I think it's covered by warranty.


----------



## galavanter

I read this entire thread with great interest. My white dialed 41 mm arrives tomorrow. There _is_ a white dialed 36 mm, L3.316.4.76.6, with 18mm lug width, but I don't know the circumference of the bracelet. It would certainly work with a strap. If it was readily available I may have gone with it.

Here's a corny video with lots of wrist shots (I think mostly 41 mm on males); of course one never knows if it's the _right_ size until it's on your own.


----------



## galavanter

I like it. I have around a 7-7 1/4" wrist, and the 41 mm case (measures slightly less from what I read), almost 50 mm lug to lug, along with the 12mm height (not bad, really) will do nicely for a daily wear watch. I removed 2 links (split pins), and I may get lucky with the bracelet fitment as well.

When warm, it may get a little snug, but my Oris Classic Worldtimer is the same way. A plug for the Oris: Nothing beats the two pushers for changing the hour, while on the wrist, with ease. 37.5 mm too.

I might have one thing to add to this thread that hasn't already been mentioned. Many, including me, have watched videos of the IAHH method of quickly spinning the crown, while fretting that a failed attempt would lose the HAQ time setting, with the second hand auto resetting to twelve.

The good news is, while this happened to me, that is I didn't spin the crown quickly enough, and the second hand reset to twelve, an immediate second quick spin attempt, successful this time, not only adjusted the hour by one, but the second hand abandoned the 12 o'clock position and went back to keeping the previous set time, to the second.

I tested this several times, and even messed up twice in a row on the fast spin. After the first mishap, the second hand went to 12. Another subsequent failed attempt, and it remained at 12! Finally, on my third attempt, I did it successfully, the hour changed by one, and the second hand (and maybe minute hand if it had been moved) went back to keeping the correct, original HAQ time.

I may get the hang of it eventually, but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it with the watch on the wrist. All in all, for $700 all in (first time gray market purchase), I'm satisfied. It's an attractive, intrinsically accurate, highly legible watch with the one function I depend on while truckin'around the U.S. Of course it will take a few months to estimate its time keeping prowess. Time will tell.

Oh, the color red, and the numbers on the rehaut? Neither is really noticeable on the wrist, except maybe the tiny "V.H.P" imo.


----------



## DaveM

galavanter said:


> I might have one thing to add to this thread that hasn't already been mentioned. Many, including me, have watched videos of the IAHH method of quickly spinning the crown, while fretting that a failed attempt would lose the HAQ time setting, with the second hand auto resetting to twelve.
> 
> The good news is, while this happened to me, that is I didn't spin the crown quickly enough, and the second hand reset to twelve, an immediate second quick spin attempt, successful this time, not only adjusted the hour by one, but the second hand abandoned the 12 o'clock position and went back to keeping the previous set time, to the second.
> 
> I tested this several times, and even messed up twice in a row on the fast spin. After the first mishap, the second hand went to 12. Another subsequent failed attempt, and it remained at 12! Finally, on my third attempt, I did it successfully, the hour changed by one, and the second hand (and maybe minute hand if it had been moved) went back to keeping the correct, original HAQ time.
> 
> I may get the hang of it eventually, but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it with the watch on the wrist.


I agree.
The 'smart crown' works, but is a bit of a fiddle.
For me a 3-pusher system with 'mode indication' seconds hand can be way better
a) Very easy to use. Just one or two pushes to change the time-zone
b) Even on the latest VHP I often struggle to pull the crown out
c) A 'smart crown' is mechanically complex and hard to make watertight. Pushers are easy !


----------



## galavanter

I just wanted to make the point that the IAHH is idiot proof. The concern about losing the original HAQ time setting is unwarranted, and indeed the feature works better than advertised.

I've found that spinning the outer smooth rim of the crown is the secret. Don't try to do it with the ribbed portion, as the crown guards will inhibit your movement (I'm slow to grasp the obvious at times). I was even successful with the watch on my wrist!

Personally, I'd prefer a 39 mm, but other than that, I have no complaints about what I received in relation to the price. I just realized this is the first "nice" watch I've ever purchased new.

Well almost new, because despite calling Jomashop as a first time customer to confirm stock and newness and being assured of both, the watch arrived (quickly) sans the black plastic guard piece to hold the crown in sleep mode, running and set to Brazil time, not Switzerland. 

I liked it enough to forgo the hassle of a return (while on the road) and keep it.


----------



## RegularStormy

How does the dial of the silver model look? The blue is a ghosty, unfocused blue. The black also has a unique look. Some online pictures make the silver dial look silver, but most of the time white. Does that depend on the light?


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> How does the dial of the silver model look? The blue is a ghosty, unfocused blue. The black also has a unique look. Some online pictures make the silver dial look silver, but most of the time white. Does that depend on the light?


Yep, the light. I was in my truck when I read this, so I took a pic inside, on a dreary, overcast day. It definitely seems slightly silver, although the pic doesn't really reflect it. Then I put the watch in the light, still overcast, and it looks white. The last pic back indoors and next to an old _silver_ Mac, it exhibits a sunburst effect thanks to the usually invisible guilloche dial. Hopefully the difference between pics help. It's quite nice.

I like the dial layout a lot. The shape of the hands, just 12 and 6 for numbers. I realized a favorite old G-Shock, the GW2500, has an identical layout. 

I've had black dialed watches with polished indices. They are not very legible in many instances, although the VHP has lume inserted between the sticks, which should help. I'm happy I chose the "silver carved" dial. When I saw the now retired Longines CEO Walter von Känel wearing one, that made up my mind.


----------



## RegularStormy

galavanter said:


> Yep, the light. I was in my truck when I read this, so I took a pic inside, on a dreary, overcast day. It definitely seems slightly silver, although the pic doesn't really reflect it. Then I put the watch in the light, still overcast, and it looks white. The last pic back indoors and next to an old _silver_ Mac, it exhibits a starburst effect thanks to the usually invisible guilloche dial. Hopefully the difference between pics help. It's quite nice.
> 
> I like the dial layout a lot. The shape of the hands, just 12 and 6 for numbers. I realized a favorite old G-Shock, the GW2500, has an identical layout.
> 
> I've had black dialed watches with polished indices. They are not very legible in many instances, although the VHP has lume inserted between the sticks, which should help. I'm happy I chose the "silver carved" dial. When I saw the now retired Longines CEO Walter von Känel wearing one, that made up my mind.
> 
> View attachment 15400537
> 
> View attachment 15400538
> 
> View attachment 15400539


Thanks for the description and pics. Seems that legibility is one of the key elements of its design. I have a dislike of silver dials (perhaps due to the typical lack of contrast), but am very intrigued by this one.


----------



## Tikim

galavanter said:


> I like it. I have around a 7-7 1/4" wrist, and the 41 mm case (measures slightly less from what I read), almost 50 mm lug to lug, along with the 12mm height (not bad, really) will do nicely for a daily wear watch. I removed 2 links (split pins), and I may get lucky with the bracelet fitment as well.
> 
> When warm, it may get a little snug, but my Oris Classic Worldtimer is the same way. A plug for the Oris: Nothing beats the two pushers for changing the hour, while on the wrist, with ease. 37.5 mm too.
> 
> I might have one thing to add to this thread that hasn't already been mentioned. Many, including me, have watched videos of the IAHH method of quickly spinning the crown, while fretting that a failed attempt would lose the HAQ time setting, with the second hand auto resetting to twelve.
> 
> The good news is, while this happened to me, that is I didn't spin the crown quickly enough, and the second hand reset to twelve, an immediate second quick spin attempt, successful this time, not only adjusted the hour by one, but the second hand abandoned the 12 o'clock position and went back to keeping the previous set time, to the second.
> 
> I tested this several times, and even messed up twice in a row on the fast spin. After the first mishap, the second hand went to 12. Another subsequent failed attempt, and it remained at 12! Finally, on my third attempt, I did it successfully, the hour changed by one, and the second hand (and maybe minute hand if it had been moved) went back to keeping the correct, original HAQ time.
> 
> I may get the hang of it eventually, but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it with the watch on the wrist. All in all, for $700 all in (first time gray market purchase), I'm satisfied. It's an attractive, intrinsically accurate, highly legible watch with the one function I depend on while truckin'around the U.S. Of course it will take a few months to estimate its time keeping prowess. Time will tell.
> 
> Oh, the color red, and the numbers on the rehaut? Neither is really noticeable on the wrist, except maybe the tiny "V.H.P" imo.


Glad you like your VHP 

I personally didn't have any issue with using the quick setting while my watch is on my wrist. However, if you end up in a situation where you don't succeed to do it and you're afraid you'll lose the second synchronization, you can still let the watch untouched for one minute. It will automatically go to sleep mode, with the hands at 12:00. After that, once you push the crown again, you'll retrieve your original time.

This is also a good way to increase the watch autonomy if you're not wearing it everyday. Just let it sleep and push the crown when you want to wear it.

As for the pushers, if I remember correctly, the chrono version of the VHP allows to increase/decrease the hour with the pushers.


----------



## galavanter

Tikim said:


> Glad you like your VHP
> 
> As for the pushers, if I remember correctly, the chrono version of the VHP allows to increase/decrease the hour with the pushers.


The user instructions for time setting are the same for both the three hander and the chronograph.



https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/detail/cs-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf



Neat thought, but the Longines VHP chrono sizes, at 42 mm and 44 mm, are larger than my preferred dimensions. Still researching the circumference of the 36mm VHP bracelet.

EDIT: I just got off the phone with Topper Jewelers, an authorized Longines dealer and forum sponsor. I've never bought from them, but have called them twice, and over the phone they have been very courteous and responsive. I got owner/ forum member Rob the first time, and he likes to shoot the sh** as much as I do.

They don't currently have the 36 mm silver dial in stock, but can get it rather quickly, sourced from the U.S. I was told the 36 mm would fit my 7"+ wrist, and I would probably have to remove links just as I did with the 41 mm.

The price they quoted me is hard to beat as well.


----------



## jrpippen

Still enjoying mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## OutOfSpec

galavanter said:


> The user instructions for time setting are the same for both the three hander and the chronograph.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/detail/cs-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Neat thought, but the Longines VHP chrono sizes, at 42 mm and 44 mm, are larger than my preferred dimensions. Still researching the circumference of the 36mm VHP bracelet.
> 
> EDIT: I just got off the phone with Topper Jewelers, an authorized Longines dealer and forum sponsor. I've never bought from them, but have called them twice, and over the phone they have been very courteous and responsive. I got owner/ forum member Rob the first time, and he likes to shoot the sh** as much as I do.
> 
> They don't currently have the 36 mm silver dial in stock, but can get it rather quickly, sourced from the U.S. I was told the 36 mm would fit my 7"+ wrist, and I would probably have to remove links just as I did with the 41 mm.
> 
> The price they quoted me is hard to beat as well.


I'm also tempted by the 36mm, but don't want to spend 1K on it.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

OutOfSpec said:


> I'm also tempted by the 36mm, but don't want to spend 1K on it.


Agreed. The lowest I've seen it is $800.


----------



## RegularStormy

I couldn't hold out any longer, I ordered the 36mm. I'll post when it arrives.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

RegularStormy said:


> I couldn't hold out any longer, I ordered the 36mm. I'll post when it arrives.


Congrats! Really look forward to seeing it!


----------



## galavanter

That feeling you get when you've worn a watch for a week and still can't tell whether it's gaining or losing time.


----------



## Incident

galavanter said:


> That feeling you get when you've worn a watch for a week and still can't tell whether it's gaining or losing time.


The VHP GMT I have is currently running at +/-0.0spd for 2 months and 3 days. It's pretty amazing.


----------



## cheznous

Incident said:


> The VHP GMT I have is currently running at +/-0.0spd for 2 months and 3 days. It's pretty amazing.


On basis the second hand moves in second jumps then won't it always be 0 or a variation of a number of seconds out. 
I find when not worn all the time the accuracy not much different to any good quartz.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gaijin

Incident said:


> The VHP GMT I have is currently running at +/-0.0spd for 2 months and 3 days. It's pretty amazing.


How are you measuring your offset/rate, and what are you using for a time reference?

TIA


----------



## Tomc1944

cheznous said:


> On basis the second hand moves in second jumps then won't it always be 0 or a variation of a number of seconds out.
> I find when not worn all the time the accuracy not much different to any good quartz.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yours must be defective. I have had mine a year and it is at +3 seconds.


----------



## cheznous

Tomc1944 said:


> Yours must be defective. I have had mine a year and it is at +3 seconds.


No, I don't wear it all the time and would guess it is running maybe up to 10 secs per year. 
My wifes Longines quartz which she wears daily is better. 
The point is that good quartz watches are all pretty accurate.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Incident

gaijin said:


> How are you measuring your offset/rate, and what are you using for a time reference?


I simply use the WatchCheck app on an Anfroid phone. I have set this watch only once, and used the reference time off of time.is.

In my opinion, the method I use (and I think what many people use) is really sort of a joke. The simple fact that I have to use my finger to hit a 'button' on my phone to record the time is in itself going to only give perfectly inaccurate results...certainly not within 1/10 second increments.

For me, knowing that when I do check the accuracy of a watch using this method, it really only gives me a sense of the overall direction a watch movement is heading...slowing down or speeding up, over the course of time.


----------



## ronalddheld

Methods of Determining the Accuracy of a Watch


We are indebted to South Pender and Catalin for developing this post. Since this is a sticky, please confine follow on posts to those germane to the topic. Methods of Determining the Accuracy of a Watch WUS HEQ Members, March, 2010 There are several ways of determining just how much your...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## galavanter

cheznous said:


> No, I don't wear it all the time and would guess it is running maybe up to 10 secs per year.
> My wifes Longines quartz which she wears daily is better.
> The point is that good quartz watches are all pretty accurate.


Yet in the Grand Seiko forum, you compare your Spring Drive favorably to the Longines VHP:



cheznous said:


> Maybe I am one of the lucky ones but my Springdrive is as accurate as my Quartz Longines VHP as best I can tell. I would like the Citizen 001 quartz when it is more available though.


I think many of us post anecdotal statements on WUS ("guess, maybe, better, pretty accurate, as best I can tell") regarding accuracy. I made a simple post above celebrating my first HAQ watch, obviously not scientific (visible and audible clicks using an atomic clock app).



cheznous said:


> The point is that good quartz watches are all pretty accurate.


Posting them over and over again, especially in the HAQ forum, seems a bit trollish.


----------



## cheznous

galavanter said:


> Yet in the Grand Seiko forum, you compare your Spring Drive favorably to the Longines VHP:
> 
> I think many of us post anecdotal statements on WUS ("guess, maybe, better, pretty accurate, as best I can tell") regarding accuracy. I made a simple post above celebrating my first HAQ watch, obviously not scientific (visible and audible clicks using an atomic clock app).
> 
> Posting them over and over again, especially in the HAQ forum, seems a bit trollish.


Don't understand your point. 
Yes absolutely prefer my Snowflake but at the price differential that shouldn't be unexpected.

The accuracy of the Springdrive is better than GS suggest which pleasantly surprised me whilst I became a tad disappointed with the Longines. But again I don't wear it every day and that does reflect in the accuracy or lack of.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TraserH3

Why not just set it to time.gov, then check deviation from time.gov a month later.


----------



## galavanter

galavanter said:


> That feeling you get when you've worn a watch for a week and still can't tell whether it's gaining or losing time.


So just two days later, still using visual and audio ticks from the free Atomic Clock (Gorgy Timing) app, (set to synch on startup), I can now see and hear that the VHP is gaining time (hurray). Time.is (Iceland) also has audible second beeps (More info > Scroll to bottom > Sound).

I got lucky on my first attempt at setting the watch to the app. When it arrived, it was running almost a second slow, but as I stated earlier, Jomashop sold me a used (if only slightly) watch. It was not set to Switzerland time and was running. I set it with the app, and the second hand was hitting the next mark exactly (to my brain) at the audible tick of the app. Now the second hand obviously hits the mark before the audible tick. Only a small fraction of a second, but I can see and hear the difference. The sound option is a great help.

My concern was that the watch might lose time, which none of us want. It now appears the watch was messed with enough after the factory time set, and set manually, but not precisely to the very second.

The only drag is that I just drove from PA to FL, and didn't have the opportunity to use the IAHH while actually on the road. I'll post a video when I do (jk).


----------



## RegularStormy

The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


Congrats! I've never been this excited for someone else to receive a watch.

Looks great size wise. What's your wrist size and how big is the bracelet?


----------



## RegularStormy

galavanter said:


> Congrats! I've never been this excited for someone else to receive a watch.
> 
> Looks great size wise. What's your wrist size and how big is the bracelet?


My wrist is 6.5 inches, and my bracelet is slightly loosely sized. There are 3 links removed, and they total 1.25". It should be able to go up to 7.75".


----------



## watchcrank_tx

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


Congrats! That looks perfect for wrists like yours and mine.


----------



## RegularStormy

watchcrank_tx said:


> Congrats! That looks perfect for wrists like yours and mine.


Thanks. It does feel a bit small, but I'm sure I'll acclimate to it. I guess this is what I get by thinking that the chronomaster was slightly too big.


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> Thanks. It does feel a bit small, but I'm sure I'll acclimate to it. I guess this is what I get by thinking that the chronomaster was slightly too big.


37.5 mm Chronomaster is too large, and 36 mm VHP is too small? You have a worse case than the rest of us.  That Washi dial on the Chronomaster is something to behold.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


This looks really great and perfect on your 6.5" wrist. I've really wanted to see this example in real life. Thanks for posting these pictures. I still don't love the crown guard, but I can live with it. The 36mm is on my list. Where did you purchase it from and what was the price?


----------



## RegularStormy

galavanter said:


> 37.5 mm Chronomaster is too large, and 36 mm VHP is too small? You have a worse case than the rest of us.  That Washi dial on the Chronomaster is something to behold.


LOL! Yes, I can't be pleased. The bracelet makes it wear smaller than on strap, that's what I was referring to.


----------



## RegularStormy

OutOfSpec said:


> This looks really great and perfect on your 6.5" wrist. I've really wanted to see this example in real life. Thanks for posting these pictures. I still don't love the crown guard, but I can live with it. The 36mm is on my list. Where did you purchase it from and what was the price?


The crown guard doesn't contact the wrist, so it is comfortable. I kinda like its shape. 
I got mine from Topper for a decent price, give them a call.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> The crown guard doesn't contact the wrist, so it is comfortable. I kinda like its shape.
> I got mine from Topper for a decent price, give them a call.


This has been talked about before, but the silver dial and hands look almost white and black respectively, especially in your photographs. In fact, I'd prefer the to be perceived as white and black most of the time. What colors do they appear most often to you?


----------



## RegularStormy

OutOfSpec said:


> This has been talked about before, but the silver dial and hands look almost white and black respectively, especially in your photographs. In fact, I'd prefer the to be perceived as white and black most of the time. What colors do they appear most often to you?


I asked this same question before I bought because I have always had a dislike of silver color on things: cars, kitchen appliances, watch faces, etc. Silver carries no personality, imho. The guy that answered said that it is almost always white, but it's sometimes silver based on the lighting (or that is what I remember him saying).

I've had it for 30 hours now and while I haven't had the chance to see it in bright sunlight, the face has always been vibrant and white, not dull. I can say that the pictures you've seen online are accurate. The contrast with the markers is great... very legible.

The lume is also good. Light- adjusted eyes can read the time easily all night long (well, at least 6 hours). Here is an unfair picture a few minutes after exposure.


----------



## dwalby

OutOfSpec said:


> This has been talked about before, but the silver dial and hands look almost white and black respectively, especially in your photographs. In fact, I'd prefer the to be perceived as white and black most of the time. What colors do they appear most often to you?


I've had mine for about a year now and to me it always looks white. I've never seen anything that I would call silver, other than the fact that there is a bit of a sheen to the dial at various angles, but it still looks white to me. The hands and markers always look black, which provides great contrast in any light.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> I asked this same question before I bought because I have always had a dislike of silver color on things: cars, kitchen appliances, watch faces, etc. Silver carries no personality, imho. The guy that answered said that it is almost always white, but it's sometimes silver based on the lighting (or that is what I remember him saying).
> 
> I've had it for 30 hours now and while I haven't had the chance to see it in bright sunlight, the face has always been vibrant and white, not dull. I can say that the pictures you've seen online are accurate. The contrast with the markers is great... very legible.
> 
> The lume is also good. Light- adjusted eyes can read the time easily all night long (well, at least 6 hours). Here is an unfair picture a few minutes after exposure.


Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the lume shot. I know that your Citizen is another level of finish altogether, but how do you feel this 36mm Longines compares to your Citizen?


----------



## OutOfSpec

dwalby said:


> I've had mine for about a year now and to me it always looks white. I've never seen anything that I would call silver, other than the fact that there is a bit of a sheen to the dial at various angles, but it still looks white to me. The hands and markers always look black, which provides great contrast in any light.


Cool. Thanks for your insight. Do you also have the 36mm? Is there a difference in finish (hands/dial) between the 36mm, 41 and 43 (I think the answer is "no").


----------



## RegularStormy

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the lume shot. I know that your Citizen is another level of finish altogether, but how do you feel this 36mm Longines compares to your Citizen?


As you noted, the 2 are different levels, designed for different situations. The Citizen is a more refined piece, with much more design going on in the shape of the case. The combination of polishing and brushing is nice. Once you get over the weight of the titanium, it feels like it's price.

The Longines is a sports watch. All brushed except for the bezel. The shape of the case is rather simple... like it was designed for a price point. It feels solid. It is better than any other watch I've had in one area-- finishing between the lugs. Every bracelet equipped watch I've had has a noticeably poorer level of brushing between the lugs, as is the maker wants to punish you for preferring a Zulu or leather strap (in fact, I'd say that the Tudor Pelagos has no finishing there, just lines from the scraping of the case leaving the mold). But the VHP shaping and brushing are totally consistent with the rest of the case.

When it comes to the dials, they are equally enthusing in their own ways. Both have a date window as large, legible, and as well integrated as possible... something most makers and consumers have avoided due to the effort it takes to do it right. Both have hands that are an appropriate length.

The biggest drawback for the Longines i have at the moment is the thickness. It is comfortable, but no case slimming tricks were done to it (it measures the same as the Citizen), so it feels slightly chunky.

Both watches accomplished what they set out to do. Which design speaks to you more?


----------



## dwalby

OutOfSpec said:


> Cool. Thanks for your insight. Do you also have the 36mm? Is there a difference in finish (hands/dial) between the 36mm, 41 and 43 (I think the answer is "no").


I have the 41, but from what I see in pictures I think the finish is the same on all 3 sizes.


----------



## Barbababa

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


Congrats! Looks perfect in size and the date window sits perfect at the edge 
But I think it´s about time they did something new with the design on this now. Like you said, the hight is a few mm to many...


----------



## TypeR10

It makes more sense asking here.

What a good looking watch. Only the crown guard does not fit aesthetically.
How much is the thickness? 

Does the bracelet taper? How big is the clasp? Would you mind taking a photo of it, please?


----------



## Pugzilla

Hi, I'm interested in the VHP.

Just have a few questions if people here don't mind. 

Would the 41mm VHP suit a 7 inch wrist? 

Longines state a 4 year plus battery life, but has anyone needed to replace their battery prematurely? 
Can you change the battery yourself without sending it back to Longines?

Has anyone seen the cermaic bezel options? What's the better choice? Steel or ceramic bezel?

Thanks


----------



## dwalby

TypeR10 said:


> It makes more sense asking here.
> 
> What a good looking watch. Only the crown guard does not fit aesthetically.
> How much is the thickness?
> 
> Does the bracelet taper? How big is the clasp? Would you mind taking a photo of it, please?


Not sure how consistent these measurements will be across the 3 different sizes, but for my 41mm version:

thickness is about 12.0-12.1mm
bracelet tapers from 19.6mm at lug to 17.8mm at clasp.



https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3_plGQcR7GRgCZC6wr-NUJDtYm5fxMeqsIbbDjylTFImHIpa1lD8&usqp=CAc


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> It makes more sense asking here.
> 
> What a good looking watch. Only the crown guard does not fit aesthetically.
> How much is the thickness?
> 
> Does the bracelet taper? How big is the clasp? Would you mind taking a photo of it, please?


The 36mm is 10.8mm thick (sometimes it measures as 11mm, but my calipers are kinda low quality). My bracelet is in the box, I'll have to dig it out tomorrow.


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is 10.8mm thick (sometimes it measures as 11mm, but my calipers are kinda low quality). My bracelet is in the box, I'll have to dig it out tomorrow.


An online seller lists 10.8 thickness as well for the 36mm, and 18mm lug width. Two weeks after my inquiry asking for specifics, I got a reply today from Longines USA stating the 36 mm "might" fit a man.  You said before you removed 3 links, which makes the bracelet about the same circumference as the 41 mm, of which I removed 2 for links for my 7" wrist.

So it's a mm thinner than the 41 mm at 12 mm, which is almost 3 mm thinner than the Tudor Black Bay GMT at 14.8 mm, which, along with the "issue", ruled that out for me. That's too thick.

We are wearing the most accurate Swiss watch ever made, and we got it for a song. I like the crown guard too. 😃 It adds a contemporary twist to the otherwise traditional Swiss look, which in light of the "Smart crown", I can appreciate.

I think this watch is a home run for Longines.

Went to Dallas and now headed back east. The IAHH works great on the road!


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> As you noted, the 2 are different levels, designed for different situations. The Citizen is a more refined piece, with much more design going on in the shape of the case. The combination of polishing and brushing is nice. Once you get over the weight of the titanium, it feels like it's price.
> 
> The Longines is a sports watch. All brushed except for the bezel. The shape of the case is rather simple... like it was designed for a price point. It feels solid. It is better than any other watch I've had in one area-- finishing between the lugs. Every bracelet equipped watch I've had has a noticeably poorer level of brushing between the lugs, as is the maker wants to punish you for preferring a Zulu or leather strap (in fact, I'd say that the Tudor Pelagos has no finishing there, just lines from the scraping of the case leaving the mold). But the VHP shaping and brushing are totally consistent with the rest of the case.
> 
> When it comes to the dials, they are equally enthusing in their own ways. Both have a date window as large, legible, and as well integrated as possible... something most makers and consumers have avoided due to the effort it takes to do it right. Both have hands that are an appropriate length.
> 
> The biggest drawback for the Longines i have at the moment is the thickness. It is comfortable, but no case slimming tricks were done to it (it measures the same as the Citizen), so it feels slightly chunky.
> 
> Both watches accomplished what they set out to do. Which design speaks to you more?


Very interesting, thanks for this reply. I agree about the Lognines' thickness, although, I believe that the 36mm version is thinner than the 41mm and 43mm.

Honestly, I like both watches, and would like to acquire both at some point, but that isn't possible at the moment. I see the Longines VHP 36mm as almost the perfect every day watch - sporty and casual, with high legibility and lume and with the HAQ pedigree that we all like in this forum.


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> It makes more sense asking here.
> 
> What a good looking watch. Only the crown guard does not fit aesthetically.
> How much is the thickness?
> 
> Does the bracelet taper? How big is the clasp? Would you mind taking a photo of it, please?


The 36mm bracelet tapers from 18 to 16 at the butterfly clasp. It has heft/presence and balances out the watch head.


----------



## GMT-man

Pugzilla said:


> Would the 41mm VHP suit a 7 inch wrist?
> 
> Longines state a 4 year plus battery life, but has anyone needed to replace their battery prematurely?
> Can you change the battery yourself without sending it back to Longines?


I have 6.7" wrist and 41mm V.H.P. looks and feels just fine. I even wear a 44mm GS sometimes without problems.

I suppose that the battery change is not any more complicated than in any quartz watch, but you can not have the watch without a battery for too long or you loose the perpetual calendar, which means a service visit. Was it 30 minutes or so?


----------



## dwalby

GMT-man said:


> I suppose that the battery change is not any more complicated than in any quartz watch, but you can not have the watch without a battery for too long or you loose the perpetual calendar, which means a service visit. Was it 30 minutes or so?


I seem to recall 24 hours, it was long enough that it should never be an issue.


----------



## MFoley1956

I just bought a 43mm Longines VHP and IMO it looks very good on my 7 1/2" wrist. It seems to wear a bit smaller than other 43 watches I've tried. I don't think it will be too big for a 7" wrist, particularly on a NATO or other pass-through strap.
The bracelet was a little flashy for me.


----------



## MFoley1956




----------



## RegularStormy

MFoley1956 said:


> View attachment 15424311


How do you like that blue dial? I have the silver, and I've seen the blue in a display case. Neither of these dials appear like standard faces. It's like they have a glowing unfocused personality.


----------



## MFoley1956

RegularStormy said:


> How do you like that blue dial? I have the silver, and I've seen the blue in a display case. Neither of these dials appear like standard faces. It's like they have a glowing unfocused personality.


I was torn between the silver and blue, but I have a white dial Halios Tropik that I'm wearing a lot, so the blue won. I'm still getting used to it, but so far I like it a lot. It changes personality in every different light and angle. Was a bit concerned that the big 12 and 6 would be too flashy for me, but the black chrome is nicely subdued - they can flash for a moment in the light then nearly disappear at a different angle.
IMO, the watch is richer-looking than the price.


----------



## RegularStormy

galavanter said:


> An online seller lists 10.8 thickness as well for the 36mm, and 18mm lug width. Two weeks after my inquiry asking for specifics, I got a reply today from Longines USA stating the 36 mm "might" fit a man.  You said before you removed 3 links, which makes the bracelet about the same circumference as the 41 mm, of which I removed 2 for links for my 7" wrist.
> 
> So it's a mm thinner than the 41 mm at 12 mm, which is almost 3 mm thinner than the Tudor Black Bay GMT at 14.8 mm, which, along with the "issue", ruled that out for me. That's too thick.
> 
> We are wearing the most accurate Swiss watch ever made, and we got it for a song. I like the crown guard too.  It adds a contemporary twist to the otherwise traditional Swiss look, which in light of the "Smart crown", I can appreciate.
> 
> I think this watch is a home run for Longines.
> 
> Went to Dallas and now headed back east. The IAHH works great on the road!


Yes, the 36mm is wearable by a man. I am tired of "pulling off" watches...I just want something that fits. It looks small in the mirror, but looks right in first person (which is what i look at).

You are completely right, this watch is a sleeper home run. I had overlooked it for a long time. Only tried an HAQ on a lark... and glad I did. Citizen only does refined HAQs, which is a shame because a sporty watch is what suits me best.

I hesitate to call the VHP affordable because it's still not a price I'd admit to at work, but for what it is, it is a great price proposition. More refinement is more limiting, but this is very wearable.


----------



## PetWatch

I picked this one up a few weeks ago so I can't comment on accuracy yet, on track thus far. Second hand hits all the min. markers. After a meticulous search for a watch likely to meet the HAQ standards of this forum, in my opinion this is by far the best value for a new cutting edge tech. HAQ watch in terms of $ for accuracy. The proof is in the pudding, we shall see.

A few pics for reference.

7.25 in. wrist, 41mm model. In reality a tad smaller than shown.










Longines describes the dial as silver carved. Assuming this is an accurate description which I have no reason to doubt, nonetheless, the predominant appearance is white with a metallic sheen in parts depending on lighting. This may be due to the shadows cast by the concentric rings on the dial and their play on light, or more likely the opposite, the widely disseminated sunburst dial affect creates the appearance of white across the dial. Would like to hear from an expert on this matter.




























Sunlight.


----------



## OutOfSpec

So, anyone have a guess why the MSRP of all the basic VHP 3 hand models are 1k, but on grey market sites, the 36mm is consistently priced higher than the 41/43?


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> Yes, the 36mm is wearable by a man. I am tired of "pulling off" watches...I just want something that fits. It looks small in the mirror, but looks right in first person (which is what i look at).
> 
> You are completely right, this watch is a sleeper home run. I had overlooked it for a long time. Only tried an HAQ on a lark... and glad I did. Citizen only does refined HAQs, which is a shame because a sporty watch is what suits me best.
> 
> I hesitate to call the VHP affordable because it's still not a price I'd admit to at work, but for what it is, it is a great price proposition. More refinement is more limiting, but this is very wearable.


Do you mind digging out your calipers one more time and telling me the lug to lug measurement?


----------



## RegularStormy

galavanter said:


> Do you mind digging out your calipers one more time and telling me the lug to lug width?


43.7mm


----------



## RegularStormy

OutOfSpec said:


> So, anyone have a guess why the MSRP of all the basic VHP 3 hand models are 1k, but on grey market sites, the 36mm is consistently priced higher than the 41/43?


It's a men's style in a ladies size. ADs probably aren't ordering them to have on hand, so there's fewer out there in dealer inventory.


----------



## galavanter

RegularStormy said:


> 43.7mm


Thanks! I'm comparing it to my Citizen pmd56-2951, which is 45 lug to lug and fits me great.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> It's a men's style in a ladies size. ADs probably aren't ordering them to have on hand, so there's fewer out there in dealer inventory.


Makes sense. Jomashop has the 41mm for $695. Would like to find the 36mm for that, but probably can't.


----------



## TypeR10

RegularStormy said:


> It's a men's style in a ladies size. ADs probably aren't ordering them to have on hand, so there's fewer out there in dealer inventory.


Why would it be women's size? Many 36 mm men's pieces are out there.
Anyway only the white dial is available in 36 mm, is not it?


----------



## RegularStormy

OutOfSpec said:


> Makes sense. Jomashop has the 41mm for $695. Would like to find the 36mm for that, but probably can't.


That is going to be a tough price point to get new. Look on the positive side, your best price comes with factory warranty!


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> Why would it be women's size? Many 36 mm men's pieces are out there.


I'm going to have to partially agree and then go on a rant. 36mm has become a barron wasteland. Women's watch range from 20-something up to 32-34mm, typically, so 36 is unusual in that market.

All the talk about watch sizes coming down in size is only half the story. Men's watches have been dying up in the 36-38mm range. Manufacturers have been solidifying in the 39mm and up size and trying to call that small (along with 48mm LL). Yes, there are still 36mm men's watches, but they exist in 3 categories: holdovers from the past (rolex, Tudor), reissues (Longines legend diver, rado), and micros who refuse to add a date window. There is a real lack of variety in the 36mm (and 44mm LL) and under size.


----------



## konax

If anyone have an idea for a fitted rubber strap for the 41 model, without spending at least $150 at the AD, I'm all ears. I've tried most of the ebay options and these are all for Conquest or Hydroconquest cases.


----------



## Pugzilla

How do people find the lume? Does it last all night long?


----------



## PetWatch

Pugzilla said:


> How do people find the lume? Does it last all night long?


It's easily visible all night with a quick few seconds charge with led flashlight before bedtime as I do with all my lumed watches. Good.

I don't know if this has been mentioned but this watch ticks louder than most other quartz I have. In a quite room I can hear it about 8-12 inches away. Seconds tick is audible about 4-6 inches away from an ear in a relatively quite room.

Anyone else notice this? Not bothersome in any way for me, just something I noticed.


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> That is going to be a tough price point to get new. Look on the positive side, your best price comes with factory warranty!


That's true. Actually, I'd go for a pre-owned model, but there's none around. Demand low, I imagine.


----------



## TypeR10

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm bracelet tapers from 18 to 16 at the butterfly clasp. It has heft/presence and balances out the watch head.


The clasp doesn't have micro adjustment, does it?


----------



## RegularStormy

PetWatch said:


> I don't know if this has been mentioned but this watch ticks louder than most other quartz I have. In a quite room I can hear it about 8-12 inches away. Seconds tick is audible about 4-6 inches away from an ear in a relatively quite room.
> 
> Anyone else notice this? Not bothersome in any way for me, just something I noticed.


Yes, it is quite loud.


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> The clasp doesn't have micro adjustment, does it?


No, it doesn't, which is the draw back of any butterfly clasp. it does have some short links so you can get some refinement if you play with which links you leave in.


----------



## koolpep




----------



## TypeR10

TypeR10 said:


> Why would it be women's size? Many 36 mm men's pieces are out there.
> Anyway only the white dial is available in 36 mm, is not it?


please confirm if white dial version is available in 36 mm case only.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

TypeR10 said:


> please confirm if white dial version is available in 36 mm case only.


No, the "silver carved" (not white) dial is available in the larger sizes, for example here & here.


----------



## galavanter

TypeR10 said:


> please confirm if white dial version is available in 36 mm case only.


Confirmation is best found here:
Longines.com


----------



## TypeR10

drunken-gmt-master said:


> No, the "silver carved" (not white) dial is available in the larger sizes, for example here & here.


I was not so precise. I wanted to know which version is available in 36 mm as I found the silver only.
anyway how do you like craftmanship and quality comparing to the price?
is that true that ran out if power and stopped it needs to be sent to Longines to reset the time?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

TypeR10 said:


> I was not so precise. I wanted to know which version is available in 36 mm as I found the silver only.
> anyway how do you like craftmanship and quality comparing to the price?
> is that true that ran out if power and stopped it needs to be sent to Longines to reset the time?


Per galavanter, you can search the Longines web site for the other VHP models that are available in 36mm.

I've had the 41mm blue dial VHP (regular, non-GMT) for about a year & I think the craftmanship & quality is very good for the price. The bracelet is heavy & I don't like butterfly clasps, but that's just my personal preference. I haven't experienced the power failure issue because the watch is still relatively new. However, the instruction manual does warn about the reset issue:

END OF LIFE (E.O.L.) AND END OF ENERGY (E.O.E.)

The watch indicates "End Of Life"
mode (end of "battery life") by
moving the second hand forward
in five second jumps.

After around six months in this
mode, the watch will enter E.O.E.
mode: the watch hands stop at
the 12 o'clock position.

If the watch battery is changed in E.O.L.
mode or within around six months of
entering E.O.E. mode, there will be no
need to adjust the perpetual calendar.

If this is not the case, when the watch
battery is inserted, the perpetual calendar
programming will be automatically displayed
with a setting request.


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> I was not so precise. I wanted to know which version is available in 36 mm as I found the silver only.
> anyway how do you like craftmanship and quality comparing to the price?
> is that true that ran out if power and stopped it needs to be sent to Longines to reset the time?


I believe that the "silver carved" is the same finish/color which is available in all 3 sizes of 3 handers. The black and blue are not available in 36mm. The only men's style in 36mm is the silver, which is what i have and typically appears white.

The quality is good and in my opinion fits the price. It feels nice in the hand. I wouldn't say that it "punches above its weight", but it's not overpriced either. Strictly my opinion.

Earlier in this thread people talk about this movement giving the low power indication with a couple of months to spare before it dies. And if it does die, yes you'll need to send it in. The GMT versions do not need to be sent in, but they are only available in the bigger cases.


----------



## TypeR10

RegularStormy said:


> I believe that the "silver carved" is the same finish/color which is available in all 3 sizes of 3 handers. The black and blue are not available in 36mm. The only men's style in 36mm is the silver, which is what i have and typically appears white.
> 
> The quality is good and in my opinion fits the price. It feels nice in the hand. I wouldn't say that it "punches above its weight", but it's not overpriced either. Strictly my opinion.
> 
> Earlier in this thread people talk about this movement giving the low power indication with a couple of months to spare before it dies. And if it does die, yes you'll need to send it in. The GMT versions do not need to be sent in, but they are only available in the bigger cases.


How much time can it be without battery. Sometimes stated as 30mins sometimes 24 hours.. Thanks.


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> How much time can it be without battery. Sometimes stated as 30mins sometimes 24 hours.. Thanks.


I've heard both numbers too, but I'd assume that it is 30 minutes.

What I plan to do when the low battery indication occurs is research the battery type, have it on hand, then open it up to do the swap. I am not going to let it run in low battery mode for more than a week.

Or I may get the battery and take it to a place that will do the pressure check when done, as if like to make site the basket is still good to withstand a dip in the pool.


----------



## RustyRoses

Been thinking about one of these for a while - what's the real world battery life like? Is it as good at the 8 years on my Skyracer?


----------



## jrpippen

Mine has gained 3.6 seconds in 151 days. But that's been in power saving mode for all but around 5 days, so not sure if that effects it.

Using WatchTracker.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## galavanter

RustyRoses said:


> Been thinking about one of these for a while - what's the real world battery life like? Is it as good at the 8 years on my Skyracer?


Since the watch has not been available longer than the promised battery life (4-5 years), one might say the data is not yet in.


----------



## Ziptie

galavanter said:


> Since the watch has not been available longer than the promised battery life (4-5 years), one might say the data is not yet in.


Unless people are already experiencing battery failure.


----------



## galavanter

Ziptie said:


> Unless people are already experiencing battery failure.


I haven't heard any reports, but I am convinced should that happen to anyone, it will be me.


----------



## Pugzilla

Anyone here have the ceramic bezel option? Is it worth the upgrade over the steel bezel?


----------



## TypeR10

I am still plyaing with the idea of getting a 36mm VHP.
There is no jewel inside what make the movement more stable and durable, that makes me a bit worried. Especially at self-teszt executed in every three days by moving the hands like hell. How do you feel that?
The other thing, I have read about unprecise marker hitting. The user made it precise but the synchronising mechanism reverted it to the previous position. Have you experienced the same?


----------



## RegularStormy

TypeR10 said:


> I am still plyaing with the idea of getting a 36mm VHP.
> There is no jewel inside what make the movement more stable and durable, that makes me a bit worried. Especially at self-teszt executed in every three days by moving the hands like hell. How do you feel that?
> The other thing, I have read about unprecise marker hitting. The user made it precise but the synchronising mechanism reverted it to the previous position. Have you experienced the same?


I am not familiar with the self test procedure, so I can't speak to that. There are millions of quartz movements out there with various levels of jewels. If there is an issue, it won't be for 20 years or so.

When it comes to high end quartz, there are no guarantees of the second hand hitting the marks correctly. An HAQ is only more likely to hit the marks. My Citizen Chronomaster and the VHP hit them well. I have seen several GS quartz that don't hit well and people rave about their alignment. Sometimes I think I see it hit just a bit off, but then again, I'm really looking to be disappointed.

If you are concerned about alignment, then you are likely to always look for misalignment (as I am). Based on viewing angle you can always imagine/perceive a misalignment. You'll need to accept that no watch is guaranteed to hit perfectly (but if you really need it, buy several and sell/return the ones that don't please).


----------



## ronalddheld

If alignment is critical, go to a store with an AD. See if you can find a watch that hits all its marks.


----------



## kapahoo

Also. If alignment is an issue - the Longines VHP does a good job hitting the marks. It will definitely be one of the top choises.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## jrpippen

Mine does hit the marks. “Phew!” 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomchicago

More like supply low...



OutOfSpec said:


> That's true. Actually, I'd go for a pre-owned model, but there's none around. Demand low, I imagine.


----------



## gtuck

Mine has gained 0.8 seconds in 140 days. It seems to be right on day after day if I wear it. If I set on the nightstand and wear a different watch for a few days, it seems to gain a tiny amount but probably still within 5s/yr. This has become my favorite watch wearing it day in and day out. Other much more expensive watches sit in the watch boxes.


----------



## GMT-man

TypeR10 said:


> There is no jewel inside what make the movement more stable and durable, that makes me a bit worried.


Mechanical watches have jewels as bearings, and they need it. The hands in the V.H.P. are directly driven by separate motors, thus there are no bearings which would affect the accuracy of the watch. Thus no jewels are needed any more than your laptop or smartphone needs them, or your car a steam engine.


----------



## DaveM

GMT-man said:


> Mechanical watches have jewels as bearings, and they need it.


 Yes, I agree. There are 2 reasons why jewels are more important for mechanical watches
a) The 'bearing friction' of a mechanical watch effects timekeeping
b) The mechanical escapement is at the 'fast-end' of a long gear-train from a high-torque energy-store ( spring).



GMT-man said:


> The hands in the V.H.P. are directly driven by separate motor .


Not all of the VHP hands are directly driven, the minute-motor is at the 'fast-start' of a short gear-train to the hour-hand.

High quality jewels may still improve the reliability and service-interval of a quartz watch.
A good jeweled bearing has lower friction than a plain bearing and does not need lubrication.
A lubricated plain bearing has a low initial friction, but 'gets tight' if it is not lubricated every few years.
So my guess is that if a non-jeweled 'oiled' quartz watch is not serviced it will stop working after 10 or 20 years.
So long as the battery is changed a 'well-jeweled' quartz watch might last for 100 years without service.

This is only a guess, but it is supported by the reliability of my own quartz watches.
Most cheap ones stop working after less than 10 years, some good ones are still working after over 30 years.
The 'early stoppers' can normally be revived by a drop of watch-oil !


----------



## TypeR10

DaveM said:


> Yes, I agree. There are 2 reasons why jewels are more important for mechanical watches
> a) The 'bearing friction' of a mechanical watch effects timekeeping
> b) The mechanical escapement is at the 'fast-end' of a long gear-train from a high-torque energy-store ( spring).
> 
> Not all of the VHP hands are directly driven, the minute-motor is at the 'fast-start' of a short gear-train to the hour-hand.
> 
> High quality jewels may still improve the reliability and service-interval of a quartz watch.
> A good jeweled bearing has lower friction than a plain bearing and does not need lubrication.
> A lubricated plain bearing has a low initial friction, but 'gets tight' if it is not lubricated every few years.
> So my guess is that if a non-jeweled 'oiled' quartz watch is not serviced it will stop working after 10 or 20 years.
> So long as the battery is changed a 'well-jeweled' quartz watch might last for 100 years without service.
> 
> This is only a guess, but it is supported by the reliability of my own quartz watches.
> Most cheap ones stop working after less than 10 years, some good ones are still working after over 30 years.
> The 'early stoppers' can normally be revived by a drop of watch-oil !


As I understand it would be adequate to use jewels in a quartz movement including VHP.


----------



## gaijin

DaveM said:


> Not all of the VHP hands are directly driven, the minute-motor is at the 'fast-start' of a short gear-train to the hour-hand.


If that's the case, then how is the hour hand independently adjustable?


----------



## DaveM

gaijin said:


> If that's the case, then how is the hour hand independently adjustable?


*The current VHP*
Has 3 motors
-- Seconds
-- Minutes and hours
-- Date
To change time-zone by one hour
-- The seconds hand runs as normal.
-- The minutes hand rotates by 1 revolution (in addition to its normal ticks).

*The previous (perpetual calendar) VHP*
Had 2 motors
-- Seconds, Minutes and hours
-- Date
Time-zone was changed by a mechanical mechanism between crown and hour-hand

I think that going from normal (1 motor, mechanical date-change) to 3-motor system is a huge advantage for both reliability and convenience.
Fitting separate minute and hour motors would have no significant advantage.


----------



## GMT-man

DaveM said:


> Not all of the VHP hands are directly driven, the minute-motor is at the 'fast-start' of a short gear-train to the hour-hand.


In any case slight bearing friction does not effect the accuracy of the V.H.P. in any way.



TypeR10 said:


> As I understand it would be adequate to use jewels in a quartz movement including VHP.


Not a "smart quartz" like V.H.P. because there is no "mechanism" in the traditional sense of the word. There is a computer which keeps the time, and motor unit moving the hands with several separate motors. Totally different from a jewelled mechanical watch or traditional stepper motor "dumb quatrz" which benefits form jewels in its long gear train. Not so much for keeping accurate time, but saving energy.

Why would a car maker put a jet engine in a car because jet airplanes need those?


----------



## jrpippen

Would be interesting to see a movement comparison between a VHP and say a 9F “dumb Quartz”


----------



## DaveM

*GMT-man asked



Why would a car maker put a jet engine in a car because jet airplanes need those?

Click to expand...

*Both jet-engines and car-engines need bearings.
A jet-engine will not run without high-quality bearings
A car-engine will run with low-quality bearings, but will be more reliable with high-quality bearings.

Both mechanical and quartz watches need bearings.
A mechanical watch will not keep good time without jewelled bearings
The time-keeping of a quartz watch will not be improved by jewelled bearings.
But I suspect that its long-term reliability will be improved !



jrpippen said:


> Would be interesting to see a movement comparison between a VHP and say a 9F "dumb Quartz"


*Here is current VHP*
I think that the bearing in the middle of the movement is for the seconds hand.
The 'smudge' indicates that it has been oiled.









*Here is the original VHP, a single motor watch.*
It is about 30 years old, works perfectly and do not think that it has ever been serviced
You can see that the 3 main bearings are jewelled. No sign of any oil !










*Which watch do you think will need service first ?*


----------



## Pugzilla

Those photos just killed any desire for the new VHP. The lack of jewels seems like a cynical cost cutting exercise.


----------



## GMT-man

Pugzilla said:


> Those photos just killed any desire for the new VHP. The lack of jewels seems like a cynical cost cutting exercise.


V.H.P. is not a "watch" in the traditional sense of the word. It does need jewels any more than your car needs a steam engine.


----------



## Pugzilla

The old jeweled VHP movement went 30 years without a service. Will the new oiled jeweless movement do the same? I honestly don't know.


----------



## dwalby

Pugzilla said:


> The old jeweled VHP movement went 30 years without a service. Will the new oiled jeweless movement do the same? I honestly don't know.


I doubt that I'll go another 30 years without a service, so its a moot point for me.


----------



## Pugzilla

dwalby said:


> I doubt that I'll go another 30 years without a service, so its a moot point for me.


Is the current VHP movement even serviceable? What happens in ten years time if the current movement isn't available anymore?


----------



## dwalby

Pugzilla said:


> Is the current VHP movement even serviceable? What happens in ten years time if the current movement isn't available anymore?


I have other quartz watches that have lasted more than ten years, so I'd expect the VHP to also be able to last that long. If not, and its not repairable, then it goes in the trash and life moves on.


----------



## galavanter

If the VHP weren't arguably the most accurate Swiss watch ever made, along with being the most inexpensive (by far) Swiss watch I have ever lusted for, I might care more about serviceability and longevity. But at this price point, with its class leading accuracy, functionality, and gorgeous looks, I'm content with my purchase.

Swatch, makers of the non-serviceable Sistem 51 _mechanical_ watches, own Longines. It makes even less sense to make a quartz watch serviceable in this day and age. If an issue arises, drop in a new movement. Will the movements still be available in ten or twenty years? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Again, the price point.

I discovered the Longines VHP after going on a analog G-Shock binge. All were, no surprise here, too large and thick for my traditional tastes. If the Swiss made VHP lasts through a couple of battery changes, I will feel I have gotten my money's worth.


----------



## TypeR10

galavanter said:


> If the VHP weren't arguably the most accurate Swiss watch ever made, along with being the most inexpensive (by far) Swiss watch I have ever lusted for, I might care more about serviceability and longevity. But at this price point, with its class leading accuracy, functionality, and gorgeous looks, I'm content with my purchase.
> 
> Swatch, makers of the non-serviceable Sistem 51 _mechanical_ watches, own Longines. It makes even less sense to make a quartz watch serviceable in this day and age. If an issue arises, drop in a new movement. Will the movements still be available in ten or twenty years? I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. Again, the price point.
> 
> I discovered the Longines VHP after going on a analog G-Shock binge. All were, no surprise here, too large and thick for my traditional tastes. If the Swiss made VHP lasts through a couple of battery changes, I will feel I have gotten my money's worth.


However I got your point it is still an 1000 USD watch. Many fellows work 2 months for it (in the Western works, not mentioning developing countries) therefore just throwing it away seems to be not the most appropriate manner.


----------



## galavanter

TypeR10 said:


> However I got your point it is still an 1000 USD watch. Many fellows work 2 months for it (in the Western works, not mentioning developing countries) therefore just throwing it away seems to be not the most appropriate manner.


Swiss watches are completely unnecessary luxury items. Your problems are first world to the extreme. Don't want to "gamble" with your hard earned money? Don't buy it. Mind if I still enjoy mine?

P.S. Your premise is speculation. I'm happy to be an early adopter. I'll let you know.


----------



## RegularStormy

One must be careful chasing notions of future-proofing on any commodity. You can really pay out the nose for something with more durable parts only to have some mundane routine service part go out of production (like specialty gaskets). It can be difficult to predict which companies will continue to support their products after the original production run has stopped. There are horror stories of watch companies refusing to service their own movements 10 years later. Others have dusted off old specs and manufactured parts for 80 years old movements (and charged accordingly).

These are luxury watches. They are as durable as allowed within profitability. And longevity is no longer a marketable feature. 

Get your money's worth by enjoying it and hope it can be serviced or fixed when needed. The only company I'd trust for longevity/ serviceability is rolex, but I'm not willing to pay for that.


----------



## signum8

Around March I purchased a silver vhp from Jomashop and fitted it with a Barton leather strap. After a while I noticed it was way out of the 5 spy spec and rather than send it back, I had a talk with Swatch repair center. They were great about it and serviced it without charge. Pressure test, replaced the stem and got it to 009 (?) seconds per month. Don't know if they do that for everyone, but now I know it never hurts to ask and they have a repeat customer.


----------



## jrpippen

RegularStormy said:


> One must be careful chasing notions of future-proofing on any commodity.
> 
> Get your money's worth by enjoying it and hope it can be serviced or fixed when needed. The only company I'd trust for longevity/ serviceability is rolex, but I'm not willing to pay for that.


Don't trust Rolex. They won't service anything vintage. . . Useless.

Patek however.. . . Different story. But be sitting down when the bill comes!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gaijin

signum8 said:


> Around March I purchased a silver vhp from Jomashop and fitted it with a Barton leather strap. After a while I noticed it was way out of the 5 spy spec and rather than send it back, I had a talk with Swatch repair center. They were great about it and serviced it without charge. Pressure test, replaced the stem and got it to 009 (?) seconds per month. Don't know if they do that for everyone, but now I know it never hurts to ask and they have a repeat customer.


How is 9 sec/month anywhere close to 5 sec/year?


----------



## signum8

gaijin said:


> How is 9 sec/month anywhere close to 5 sec/year?


It isn't. The "009" figure is more likely 0.09 spm. The decimal is missing on the card, but it's not 9 seconds or it would not have leading 0s, hence the (?) until I know for sure.

One example is the 30 y.o. VHP movement a few posts up marked as "0.33" spm, so I'm sure that's what they mean.


----------



## RegularStormy

jrpippen said:


> Don't trust Rolex. They won't service anything vintage. . . Useless.
> 
> Patek however.. . . Different story. But be sitting down when the bill comes!!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Perhaps I heard incorrectly about rolex. They do service some old watches, but perhaps they are selective about which models they'll accept? I don't follow them because they are outside my price comfort level.


----------



## gaijin

signum8 said:


> It isn't. The "009" figure is more likely 0.09 spm. The decimal is missing on the card, but it's not 9 seconds or it would not have leading 0s, hence the (?) until I know for sure.
> 
> One example is the 30 y.o. VHP movement a few posts up marked as "0.33" spm, so I'm sure that's what they mean.


I wouldn't be so sure.

When I sent my Omega X-33 in to be serviced and had the movement replaced with the Calibre 1666C thermocompensated version, the test card came back like this:










On this card, "002" was clearly 2 Sec./Month - leading zeroes were definitely present.

May be a little apples to oranges (i.e. Omega to Longines), but I'm always suspicious when the user is left to interpret whether a decimal should be present - and where.

Have you tracked the accuracy after service to measure how it is running?

HTH


----------



## Tikim

signum8 said:


> Around March I purchased a silver vhp from Jomashop and fitted it with a Barton leather strap. After a while I noticed it was way out of the 5 spy spec and rather than send it back, I had a talk with Swatch repair center. They were great about it and serviced it without charge. Pressure test, replaced the stem and got it to 009 (?) seconds per month. Don't know if they do that for everyone, but now I know it never hurts to ask and they have a repeat customer.


What was the rate before that you send it ? And did you wear it every day ?

If worn every day, it must fit within the 5s/year spec. If not, I'd suggest you to contact Longines directly.


----------



## signum8

gaijin said:


> I wouldn't be so sure.
> 
> When I sent my Omega X-33 in to be serviced and had the movement replaced with the Calibre 1666C thermocompensated version, the test card came back like this:
> 
> On this card, "002" was clearly 2 Sec./Month - leading zeroes were definitely present.
> 
> Have you tracked the accuracy after service to measure how it is running?
> 
> HTH


Well if they mean +9 seconds per month, that's some of my better Casios and worse than my 1 spm COSC Tissot
That's not the Longines VHP Conquest 5 spy factory spec which the card said it was returned to.

Before I sent it in to the Longines Repair Center, it was gaining a second per 3 weeks, which was definitely out. I checked multiple times while wearing this watch 3 months before mailing it in. If it's 9 spm, it came out worse than it went in. I just got it in today, so I'll check the accuracy and I have a 4 month warranty on this repair. I'll report back.


----------



## TraserH3

This may help some folks on the fence about the 41mm VHP. 

The bezel diameter is actually 40mm. It’s listed as 41mm because the Side of the case is slightly bellied so protrudes a little bit. But it’s really and wears as a 40mm


----------



## Miroslav

Hello,
is it ticking loudly? can it be heard in everyday life, for example in a quiet room?
I could not find information on the subject, so I turn to those who have experience with the model.
Thanks in advance!


----------



## konax

Miroslav said:


> Hello,
> is it ticking loudly? can it be heard in everyday life, for example in a quiet room?
> I could not find information on the subject, so I turn to those who have experience with the model.
> Thanks in advance!


Less loud than a timex or swatch, but still audible. If it's on a night stand next to your head you can definitely hear it.


----------



## MaDTempo

Miroslav said:


> Hello,
> is it ticking loudly? can it be heard in everyday life, for example in a quiet room?
> I could not find information on the subject, so I turn to those who have experience with the model.
> Thanks in advance!


This is a tough question. It partly depends on how good your hearing is. At 45, I have a little presbycusis (age-related hearing loss) and I can't hear mine on my night stand but someone 20 years younger might. For a comparison, it is no where near as loud as a vintage Swatch quartz or a ETA 6497 (pocket watch movement).


----------



## kapahoo

I'm wearing mine while sleeping. Never heard it. I have a couple of automatics in rotation and they can be annoying if the position is unfavourable. 

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk


----------



## Miroslav

Thanks for the answers.
I can't understand why quartz watches have been becoming more and more noisy for some time ...
I observe a similar trend in many different manufacturers - Hamilton, Casio Edifice, etc.
Unfortunately, Longinus also falls into this category. For comparison, I have the older Conquest 41mm quartz. To hear him tick, I have to put my hand to my head in the evening. In quiet room even a few inches from my head can be heard at all.
In contrast, the new garbage produced by Casio, such as EFV 100d, I have to store it in another room, because even stored in inside the nightstand can be heard ..
Anyway details.
The watch is definitely great. Obviously I have to look at it first at the AD to find out exactly how noisy it is ..


----------



## galavanter

TraserH3 said:


> This may help some folks on the fence about the 41mm VHP.
> 
> The bezel diameter is actually 40mm. It's listed as 41mm because the Side of the case is slightly bellied so protrudes a little bit. But it's really and wears as a 40mm


Bellied! Yes, it's bellied! What a great word!

I've admired the left side of the case often (the right, as you know, is not bellied). This adds to my fondness of the flat-topped crown guard on that side.

I would still like to try on the 36 mm.

Side note: Last week drove from PA to Reno, down to Vegas, and am now headed back across the 40 to Richmond. The IAHH is so cool and functional!

Subtle silver:


----------



## OutOfSpec

Miroslav said:


> Thanks for the answers.
> I can't understand why quartz watches have been becoming more and more noisy for some time ...
> I observe a similar trend in many different manufacturers - Hamilton, Casio Edifice, etc.
> Unfortunately, Longinus also falls into this category. For comparison, I have the older Conquest 41mm quartz. To hear him tick, I have to put my hand to my head in the evening. In quiet room even a few inches from my head can be heard at all.
> In contrast, the new garbage produced by Casio, such as EFV 100d, I have to store it in another room, because even stored in inside the nightstand can be heard ..
> Anyway details.
> The watch is definitely great. Obviously I have to look at it first at the AD to find out exactly how noisy it is ..


I don't mind hearing a tick of a quartz if I put my ear to it. But, hearing it across a room? I'd prefer not to, and that sounds kind of cheap. I don't like super loud mechanicals either. Again, nice to hear it if its near your ear, otherwise, quiet please!


----------



## galavanter

Why, with the nifty electronic crown, didn’t Longines make a clockwise spin advance the time an hour? A clockwise spin turns the hands counter clockwise, or back an hour.

Some horological tradition I’m not aware of?

Does slow setting the time work the same way? I’m not messing with mine to find out.


----------



## tomchicago

Re: earlier post about serviceability of this movement, it appears to be entirely serviceable. Quartz service interval is on the order of decades, not years. I have 30+ year old quartzes that run dead accurate +/- 0.50 sec/day, every day.

You don't even need to disassemble the gear train. Just remove whatever components you can and spray the movement with quartz watch cleaning spray. Lubricate the pivots with Moebius quartz oil and they're good for another 30-50 years.

I am down to only two automatic mechanical movement watches. Frankly they would both be gone were it not for their sentimental value.


----------



## OutOfSpec

tomchicago said:


> I am down to only two automatic mechanical movement watches. Frankly they would both be gone were it not for their sentimental value.


This is the road I'm going down as well!


----------



## Tikim

galavanter said:


> Why, with the nifty electronic crown, didn't Longines make a clockwise spin advance the time an hour? A clockwise spin turns the hands counter clockwise, or back an hour.
> 
> Some horological tradition I'm not aware of?
> 
> Does slow setting the time work the same way? I'm not messing with mine to find out.


You can do all the tests you want with the slow setting without messing with your time : just wait a minute for the hands to be parked at 12:00 and push the crown again, you'll retrieve the original one.

If you don't want to wait, you can use the quick hour setting to change the hour in one direction, then in the other. While doing it, regardless of where you were with the slow setting, you'll retrieve the minute and second of the watch.


----------



## dwalby

galavanter said:


> Why, with the nifty electronic crown, didn't Longines make a clockwise spin advance the time an hour? A clockwise spin turns the hands counter clockwise, or back an hour.


Yeah, I noticed that too, and agree with you that I find it counter-intuitive. I'd prefer that a clockwise twist advanced an hour as well.


----------



## Miroslav

Hello,
I have a few questions about the 41mm version of the watch and I hope those who have it will help me .. and in particular I turn to fellows with a smaller wrist - mine is 16.5cm.
Is it comfortable on the wrist? Isn't the crown too big to stick to the hand? I am used to wearing my watch freely on my wrist, does this model allow such wearing or is it too heavy for the purpose?
I didn't have a watch with a butterfly clasp and I don't know if it's appropriate to wear it freely?
I like it a lot and I want to buy it for everyday use, but for me the situation is more complicated. For some unknown reason, the official distributor of the brand does not import a 41mm version of the model, only 43mm. i.e. I have nowhere to try it on my hand and I have to order blindly ... for that I will be grateful for frank opinions.
I watched reviews on YouTube and honestly it was Nick Shabaz's review that made me write here and ask you, because he said so many negatives about the model that he almost refused me ...
Thanks in advance to those who responded!
Greetings!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Miroslav said:


> Hello,
> I have a few questions about the 41mm version of the watch and I hope those who have it will help me .. and in particular I turn to fellows with a smaller wrist - mine is 16.5cm.
> Is it comfortable on the wrist? Isn't the crown too big to stick to the hand? I am used to wearing my watch freely on my wrist, does this model allow such wearing or is it too heavy for the purpose?
> I didn't have a watch with a butterfly clasp and I don't know if it's appropriate to wear it freely?
> I like it a lot and I want to buy it for everyday use, but for me the situation is more complicated. For some unknown reason, the official distributor of the brand does not import a 41mm version of the model, only 43mm. i.e. I have nowhere to try it on my hand and I have to order blindly ... for that I will be grateful for frank opinions.
> I watched reviews on YouTube and honestly it was Nick Shabaz's review that made me write here and ask you, because he said so many negatives about the model that he almost refused me ...
> Thanks in advance to those who responded!
> Greetings!


I have the same size wrist, 6.5" in 'merican, & don't find the 41mm VHP to be too big & the crown doesn't dig into my wrist. By "wearing [your] watch freely", do you mean loosely? If so, I don't think the VHP + bracelet are any more uncomfortable or unwieldy than watches of a similar genre, e.g., a Rolex Explorer or Omega Aqua Terra; they will all slide around. It is somewhat heavy, as would be expected for a 41mm steel sports watch, but the (also somewhat) heavy bracelet acts as a counterbalance. Personally, I'm not a fan of butterfly clasps because they typically don't allow for micro-adjustments & most modern bracelets have links that are too big to allow for a proper fit. The Longines bracelet has the standard butterfly clasp & big oyster-style links, but I was able to make it fit loosely (or "freely") rather than uncomfortably tight; I can always substitute a strap or aftermarket bracelet for a tighter &/or more flexible fit.

As far as Nick Shabazz, I had to Google him, but can't be bothered to sit through his 28 minute Youtube review. Can you or someone else summarize his criticisms of the VHP?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

galavanter said:


> Why, with the nifty electronic crown, didn't Longines make a clockwise spin advance the time an hour? A clockwise spin turns the hands counter clockwise, or back an hour.
> 
> Some horological tradition I'm not aware of?
> . . .


I don't know why, but many watches have movements where hands go in the opposite direction of the crown, so it's not peculiar to Longines or the VHP.


----------



## wpbmike

drunken-gmt-master said:


> As far as Nick Shabazz, I had to Google him, but can't be bothered to sit through his 28 minute Youtube review. Can you or someone else summarize his criticisms of the VHP?


He's a YouTube gear reviewer. His specialty is spending fifteen minutes explaining how the item fails to comport with his unique OCD. He's also skilled at demonstrating incorrect methods for disassembling folding knives.


----------



## Miroslav

drunken-gmt-master said:


> I have the same size wrist, 6.5" in 'merican, & don't find the 41mm VHP to be too big & the crown doesn't dig into my wrist. By "wearing [your] watch freely", do you mean loosely? If so, I don't think the VHP + bracelet are any more uncomfortable or unwieldy than watches of a similar genre, e.g., a Rolex Explorer or Omega Aqua Terra; they will all slide around. It is somewhat heavy, as would be expected for a 41mm steel sports watch, but the (also somewhat) heavy bracelet acts as a counterbalance. Personally, I'm not a fan of butterfly clasps because they typically don't allow for micro-adjustments & most modern bracelets have links that are too big to allow for a proper fit. The Longines bracelet has the standard butterfly clasp & big oyster-style links, but I was able to make it fit loosely (or "freely") rather than uncomfortably tight; I can always substitute a strap or aftermarket bracelet for a tighter &/or more flexible fit.
> 
> As far as Nick Shabazz, I had to Google him, but can't be bothered to sit through his 28 minute Youtube review. Can you or someone else summarize his criticisms of the VHP?


I apologize in advance that my terminology is a bit lame. English is not my first language ...
Yes, that's exactly what I meant, I prefer to wear freely.
Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, you touched on exactly what interests me. When worn freely, it is very important that the bracelet serves precisely as a counterbalance, because I have worn similar models on a silicone strap and it is not a pleasant experience.

About Nick's review ... it generally has a lot of negatives about the model, about the workmanship, about the bracelet that there are sharp corners everywhere and you can easily scratch. That it was too tall, handling of the crown was not very adequate, etc.
Quite a negative statement. He hesitated my decision to buy it, so I decided to write here.
Thanks again!
Greetings!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Miroslav said:


> I apologize in advance that my terminology is a bit lame. English is not my first language ...
> Yes, that's exactly what I meant, I prefer to wear freely.
> Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, you touched on exactly what interests me. When worn freely, it is very important that the bracelet serves precisely as a counterbalance, because I have worn similar models on a silicone strap and it is not a pleasant experience.
> 
> About Nick's review ... it generally has a lot of negatives about the model, about the workmanship, about the bracelet that there are sharp corners everywhere and you can easily scratch. That it was too tall, handling of the crown was not very adequate, etc.
> Quite a negative statement. He hesitated my decision to buy it, so I decided to write here.
> Thanks again!
> Greetings!


You're welcome. I would not feel bad about your English as it is much better than many "native" speakers I encounter on the Internet! As far as Mr. Shabazz's criticism of the bracelet, it doesn't have any more sharp edges & doesn't scratch any differently than a Rolex Oyster or similar style bracelet. I also disagree if his opinion of the workmanship/build quality. It's too bad that you can't try on the watch in person. It is a nice model, especially for the price.


----------



## GMT-man

I have never heard my V.H.P. tick until now when I put is against my ear. Even then just barely.

I have the 41mm version and my wrist is 6.7". Totally comfortable in every way. Butterfly clasp is a bit more bothersome to close than some other designs, but otherwise no complaints. Accuracy has been +3.7 SPY for almost 3 years now.


----------



## 6L35

ronalddheld said:


> TimeZone : Public Forum » Pre-Basel 2017 - Longines Conquest V.H.P. Collection
> Who will buy one?


Are they really +/-5 spy?


----------



## Miroslav

Hello,
What do you think about the longevity of the L288 movement?
I know that it has been commented earlier in the topic, but I wanted more people to enter the discussion.
I recently had the opportunity to get the Omega Seamaster 300 M Quartz 2541.80 with the OMEGA 1538 movement, but I gave up because I scared of the age of the movement...22 years seemed like too much time for such fine mechanics, despite 7 jewels.
This made me think about VHP... a movement without jewels...
Has it been used so far in a model that has survived in time?
Best regards!


----------



## dwalby

Miroslav said:


> Hello,
> What do you think about the longevity of the L288 movement?
> I know that it has been commented earlier in the topic, but I wanted more people to enter the discussion.
> I recently had the opportunity to get the Omega Seamaster 300 M Quartz 2541.80 with the OMEGA 1538 movement, but I gave up because I scared of the age of the movement...22 years seemed like too much time for such fine mechanics, despite 7 jewels.
> This made me think about VHP... a movement without jewels...
> Has it been used so far in a model that has survived in time?
> Best regards!


FWIW, I have an Omega Seamaster quartz that is 17 years old and still works perfectly. Its mostly electronic, not mechanical, so I don't think age affects it all that much. I have a VHP as well, and they both keep very similar time, even though the Omega isn't technically an HAQ movement.


----------



## GMT-man

Miroslav said:


> This made me think about VHP... a movement without jewels...


I think this has been discussed already, but the VHP mechanism does not need jewels, because there are no places in the mechanism where friction wold affect the accuracy of the "watch". Time is kept with a computer, time is the shown with hands driven with separate motors. Seconds hand is pushed forward once per second, minute and hour hands advance every 10 seconds, If there is more or less friction in the system this still happens anyway as commanded by the time keeping central unit. VHPs are not watches in the traditional sense and they do not have critical mechanical parts which would affect the time keeping going on in the background. Thus no jewels, as there are no jewels in an Apple Watch either.


----------



## DaveM

GMT-man said:


> I think this has been discussed already, but the VHP mechanism does not need jewels, because there are no places in the mechanism where friction wold affect the accuracy of the "watch". Time is kept with a computer, time is the shown with hands driven with separate motors. Seconds hand is pushed forward once per second, minute and hour hands advance every 10 seconds, If there is more or less friction in the system this still happens anyway as commanded by the time keeping central unit. VHPs are not watches in the traditional sense and they do not have critical mechanical parts which would affect the time keeping going on in the background. Thus no jewels, as there are no jewels in an Apple Watch either.


Yes, I agree
And it is also true that quartz bearings have an easier life because the motor drives the hands through reduction gearing.
In a mechanical watch the spring (motor) drives the hands through step-up gearing !

But I still suspect that a well-jeweled quartz watch will run longer without maintenance,
I have a couple of non jeweled quartz which stopped working after about 15 years. A drop of watch-oil got them going again.
Never seen this on my jeweled watches, some of which are more than 20 years old ! 
In another 10 or 20 years we will see if the new VHP has the same longevity as its (jeweled) predecessors !


----------



## gaijin

DaveM said:


> Yes, I agree
> And it is also true that quartz bearings have an easier life because the motor drives the hands through reduction gearing.
> In a mechanical watch the spring (motor) drives the hands through step-up gearing !
> 
> But I still suspect that a well-jeweled quartz watch will run longer without maintenance,
> I have a couple of non jeweled quartz which stopped working after about 15 years. A drop of watch-oil got them going again.
> Never seen this on my jeweled watches, some of which are more than 20 years old !
> In another 10 or 20 years we will see if the new VHP has the same longevity as its (jeweled) predecessors !


I believe you are missing the point that in the VHP, hands are advanced with stepper motors which are directly connected to the hands - no gears, and thus no bearing surfaces. In short, nowhere to put a jewel even if one wanted to.

HTH


----------



## ronalddheld

Do not think I will be moderating here in 20 years to check on the VHPs.


----------



## DaveM

gaijin said:


> I believe you are missing the point that in the VHP, hands are advanced with stepper motors which are directly connected to the hands - no gears, and thus no bearing surfaces. In short, nowhere to put a jewel even if one wanted to.
> 
> HTH


*Sorry, but your statements are not true. *
a) The VHP has seconds, minutes and date motors, the hour-hand is geared to the minutes motor. When you do time-zone change the minutes hand does one-rev per hour.
b) The seconds and minutes hands are also geared, It would be nice use 60-steps-per-rev 'direct drive' steppers, but they would be much more expensive than the kind of simple (usually 180-degree-step) motor used in watches. If you look at pictures of the VHP you can see bearings and oil-stains !


----------



## GMT-man

DaveM said:


> But I still suspect that a well-jeweled quartz watch will run longer without maintenance,
> I have a couple of non jeweled quartz which stopped working after about 15 years. A drop of watch-oil got them going again.


Traditional quartz watches and "smart quartz" watches like VHP are totally different animals in this respect.

Traditional quartz watches have gear trains largely similar to mechanical watches and need a couple of jewels to reduce friction and make them more reliable.

VHP type "smart quartz" watches have no gears to speak of, and the friction there does not affect the time keeping. They are more similar to Apple Watch, but use hands to show time instead of a screen.

I am not going to buy a Tesla before they put a small gasoline engine in there. That actually makes more sense than demanding jewels into a VHP...


----------



## Mee-Losh

RegularStormy said:


> The 36mm is here. I'm rather pleased with it so far. Hands are the correct length, excellent contrast.


Hey, @RegularStormy , would you mind sharing a 4-month update on how you like the watch now that some time has passed?

And thanks for all the useful feedback you've already shared here and in a few other topics related to this watch, it's much appreciated. I have a similarly sized wrist (6.6") and strongly leaning towards trying my luck with the 36mm version. I haven't had that small of a watch before (smallest I have is a 38mm Seiko Sarb035), so I'm a little weary, but I really prefer watches in the 38mm range, so the 41mm is out. Wish there was a 38 or at least a 37mm version - but there's not - so 36mm it is! 

I know the comfort will be there, but how do you feel when you wear it out and about? This question may sound sort of stupid, but does it ever feel at all... emasculating? With its diminutive size and all.

Additionally, anybody with the 36mm version is more than welcome to chime in, I'd appreciate all the input I can get.


----------



## RegularStormy

Mee-Losh said:


> Hey, @RegularStormy , would you mind sharing a 4-month update on how you like the watch now that some time has passed?
> 
> And thanks for all the useful feedback you've already shared here and in a few other topics related to this watch, it's much appreciated. I have a similarly sized wrist (6.6") and strongly leaning towards trying my luck with the 36mm version. I haven't had that small of a watch before (smallest I have is a 38mm Seiko Sarb035), so I'm a little weary, but I really prefer watches in the 38mm range, so the 41mm is out. Wish there was a 38 or at least a 37mm version - but there's not - so 36mm it is!
> 
> I know the comfort will be there, but how do you feel when you wear it out and about? This question may sound sort of stupid, but does it ever feel at all... emasculating? With its diminutive size and all.
> 
> Additionally, anybody with the 36mm version is more than welcome to chime in, I'd appreciate all the input I can get.


Has it been that long? Well, I've worn it probably 70% of the time since I got it. My initial impressions have held up rather well.

I wrote 2 titanium watches pretty exclusively before I got the 36mm VHP, so the shock of the weight is the biggest issue for me. The Chronomaster (30 grams) is completely unfelt on the wrist and the VHP is only 20 grams heavier, so I realize that I'm quite the weenie. Really, the weight is fine though of your strap fits good. And on bracelet, it would be well balanced.

The VHP is also a bit thick for its size, but that is forgivable. Given my small wrist (6.5") and desire to wear a leather strap, the lug to lug is quite important, and frankly I think people are unreasonable by saying 48mm is good for small wrists. It is not for me. I can see sufficient strap when looking at my wrist... actually looks like wrist shots that I see all day long on here of watches that I want to fit me but don't. Sometimes I think it is a bit small, but the Chronomaster at 37.5 is equally too big. In the mirror though, it is easily small... but i don't care what other people see. Plenty of non watch people wear too big or too small without a care in the world. A friend of mine wears what has to be a 32mm Tiffany watch...I tried to tease him but it didn't work. He has the confidence to make it work. And I chose to do the same. It's manly because I'm a man. But it's also an appropriate size for me.

I took a few pics to show the size on my wrist as I see it in first person. Sorry for the low light, but there is a cat on my lap.


----------



## Mee-Losh

RegularStormy said:


> Has it been that long? Well, I've worn it probably 70% of the time since I got it. My initial impressions have held up rather well.
> 
> I wrote 2 titanium watches pretty exclusively before I got the 36mm VHP, so the shock of the weight is the biggest issue for me. The Chronomaster (30 grams) is completely unfelt on the wrist and the VHP is only 20 grams heavier, so I realize that I'm quite the weenie. Really, the weight is fine though of your strap fits good. And on bracelet, it would be well balanced.
> 
> The VHP is also a bit thick for its size, but that is forgivable. Given my small wrist (6.5") and desire to wear a leather strap, the lug to lug is quite important, and frankly I think people are unreasonable by saying 48mm is good for small wrists. It is not for me. I can see sufficient strap when looking at my wrist... actually looks like wrist shots that I see all day long on here of watches that I want to fit me but don't. Sometimes I think it is a bit small, but the Chronomaster at 37.5 is equally too big. In the mirror though, it is easily small... but i don't care what other people see. Plenty of non watch people wear too big or too small without a care in the world. A friend of mine wears what has to be a 32mm Tiffany watch...I tried to tease him but it didn't work. He has the confidence to make it work. And I chose to do the same. It's manly because I'm a man. But it's also an appropriate size for me.
> 
> I took a few pics to show the size on my wrist as I see it in first person. Sorry for the low light, but there is a cat on my lap.


Thanks for the update, it's very much appreciated. You're one of the few people here who have the 36mm version, so your words and impressions on the subject carry a lot of weight. Unfortunately, I'm in one of those countries where I don't have the chance to try it out in person before ordering, so I have to rely even more so on the good WUS folk like yourself, that care to share their experience.

So if I'm reading what you've written correctly - it does feel kind of smallish, but at the same time the comfort is not quite as one might expect from a 36mm watch? To be honest - the main reason why I'm leaning towards getting a 36mm watch is because I'm sort of hoping for that next level comfort. And I want quartz and all the hassle-free usability that comes with it. And I want a high quality watch with high level finishing. Preferably from a name brand, although that's not a must. And my upper limit would be around 1K. So Longines does seem to stand on its own in that group pretty much and it's kind of winning now by default. I'm not looking for reasons to buy it (I'm already there), I'm querying for potential reasons not to, if that makes sense.
So while you're not glowingly recommending it - having it on your wrist 70% of the time, as you mentioned, does speak a lot in favor of the little bugger. 

So, just for clarification - do you actually find it comfortable on your wrist or does the fact that it's a bit chubby and heavy(ish) leave something to be desired in terms of comfort?


----------



## RegularStormy

Mee-Losh said:


> Thanks for the update, it's very much appreciated. You're one of the few people here who have the 36mm version, so your words and impressions on the subject carry a lot of weight. Unfortunately, I'm in one of those countries where I don't have the chance to try it out in person before ordering, so I have to rely even more so on the good WUS folk like yourself, that care to share their experience.
> 
> So if I'm reading what you've written correctly - it does feel kind of smallish, but at the same time the comfort is not quite as one might expect from a 36mm watch? To be honest - the main reason why I'm leaning towards getting a 36mm watch is because I'm sort of hoping for that next level comfort. And I want quartz and all the hassle-free usability that comes with it. And I want a high quality watch with high level finishing. Preferably from a name brand, although that's not a must. And my upper limit would be around 1K. So Longines does seem to stand on its own in that group pretty much and it's kind of winning now by default. I'm not looking for reasons to buy it (I'm already there), I'm querying for potential reasons not to, if that makes sense.
> So while you're not glowingly recommending it - having it on your wrist 70% of the time, as you mentioned, does speak a lot in favor of the little bugger.
> 
> So, just for clarification - do you actually find it comfortable on your wrist or does the fact that it's a bit chubby and heavy(ish) leave something to be desired in terms of comfort?


I do find it comfortable enough to wear, although for me there is room for improvement. I started going with smaller watches for the aesthetic quality. The VHP is not next level comfort. The underside of the watch has some sharp edges both on the case back relief and the edges of the lugs, depending on how sensitive your skin is you may feel that. Surprisingly, I don't feel the crown guards at all.

I got the vhp blind, knowing that mine would be the first one for sale on the forum if I didn't like it. I might lose a few hundred, but it will sale due to the interest and rarity.

Some people really enjoy the heft that comes with a higher end SS watch... and to that end, it feels as hefty and comfortable as my 38mm GS. A lot of people are turned off by titanium as it really does tend to feel cheap in comparison. My Chronomaster felt like a plastic toy when I opened it and even after a year, it doesn't feel like a quality watch, I just know that it is.

Next level comfort is small, smooth bottomed, and titanium. And it won't feel like quality. Even then, my Chronomaster isn't as comfortable as my 34mm plastic Swatch.

I'm actually really interested in the Knot 36mm Ti Solar watch... it should be the next level comfort. The only thing it's missing is high level finishing and likely second hand alignment.


----------



## Mee-Losh

RegularStormy said:


> I do find it comfortable enough to wear, although for me there is room for improvement. I started going with smaller watches for the aesthetic quality. The VHP is not next level comfort. The underside of the watch has some sharp edges both on the case back relief and the edges of the lugs, depending on how sensitive your skin is you may feel that. Surprisingly, I don't feel the crown guards at all.
> 
> I got the vhp blind, knowing that mine would be the first one for sale on the forum if I didn't like it. I might lose a few hundred, but it will sale due to the interest and rarity.
> 
> Some people really enjoy the heft that comes with a higher end SS watch... and to that end, it feels as hefty and comfortable as my 38mm GS. A lot of people are turned off by titanium as it really does tend to feel cheap in comparison. My Chronomaster felt like a plastic toy when I opened it and even after a year, it doesn't feel like a quality watch, I just know that it is.
> 
> Next level comfort is small, smooth bottomed, and titanium. And it won't feel like quality. Even then, my Chronomaster isn't as comfortable as my 34mm plastic Swatch.
> 
> I'm actually really interested in the Knot 36mm Ti Solar watch... it should be the next level comfort. The only thing it's missing is high level finishing and likely second hand alignment.


I hear you. My longest tenured "real" watch (some 8 years and counting) is a titanium Victorinox. It is extremely light, but at 50g watch head, as you mentioned in another post, I doubt I'd have weight issues with the Longines. The only thing that worries me is the thickness compared to the diameter, but it is what it is, I guess.

Anyway, thanks for all the valuable feedback, RegularStormy, let's see which direction that helps push me in.  I don't know of anything else in that price range that's quartz with that level of quality and from an established brand no less, so I sooo _want_ to like it. If it were 38mm it would really be a no-brainer for me. This way I still have some thinking to do. I think I'll take the weekend to decide. If I do end up buying it, I'll make sure to come back to this thread and share.


----------



## Mee-Losh

Ok, so I got the chance to try another 36mm white dial watch today. Granted, it has thinner lugs and is about 1mm shorter in l2l, but it's as close as I can get to the "real thing".

And I have to say - I'm out. :/

While it was certainly quite comfortable and looked pretty decent from first person view, in third person (a friend has wrists similar to mine at ~6.6", so he modeled  ) the watch just looked to darn small.  And let me tell you, I'm definitely NOT one of the folks that enjoy big watches. I like 'em nice and proportionate, but looking at the watch on my friend's wrist... it just felt off, right at the first glance.
So, as much as I wanted to like it, I mean reaaally wanted to like it - I just don't.

Having said that, Longines 36mm is thicker so there's a chance it wears larger and feels better proportioned than the 36mm Vaer that I tried on. But I wouldn't risk this much money to find out. So yeah, I'm out when it comes to the 36mm version.

At the same time, I think the 41mm version might be too large (especially with the white dial), so... maybe a 38 or 39mm version comes along at some point, who knows. One can only hope.


----------



## Mee-Losh

double post


----------



## OutOfSpec

RegularStormy said:


> Has it been that long? Well, I've worn it probably 70% of the time since I got it. My initial impressions have held up rather well.
> 
> I wrote 2 titanium watches pretty exclusively before I got the 36mm VHP, so the shock of the weight is the biggest issue for me. The Chronomaster (30 grams) is completely unfelt on the wrist and the VHP is only 20 grams heavier, so I realize that I'm quite the weenie. Really, the weight is fine though of your strap fits good. And on bracelet, it would be well balanced.
> 
> The VHP is also a bit thick for its size, but that is forgivable. Given my small wrist (6.5") and desire to wear a leather strap, the lug to lug is quite important, and frankly I think people are unreasonable by saying 48mm is good for small wrists. It is not for me. I can see sufficient strap when looking at my wrist... actually looks like wrist shots that I see all day long on here of watches that I want to fit me but don't. Sometimes I think it is a bit small, but the Chronomaster at 37.5 is equally too big. In the mirror though, it is easily small... but i don't care what other people see. Plenty of non watch people wear too big or too small without a care in the world. A friend of mine wears what has to be a 32mm Tiffany watch...I tried to tease him but it didn't work. He has the confidence to make it work. And I chose to do the same. It's manly because I'm a man. But it's also an appropriate size for me.
> 
> I took a few pics to show the size on my wrist as I see it in first person. Sorry for the low light, but there is a cat on my lap.


To my eyes, that doesn't wear small. It's perfect on your wrist!


----------



## Miroslav

Hello,
let me take you back to the unpleasant noisy ticking ..
Does anyone have a problem with it? Personally, it drives me crazy ... I don't know how they can design it like that ... it's not Timex, but in certain situations it's quite unpleasant.
Is there a solution to the issue? I don't know how adequate it is, but I think, if sound insulation is glued to the back of the case back, will things improve?


----------



## Pugzilla

Any chance we'll get an updated VHP in the next year or so? The current model is 4 years old at this stage. I'm hoping they could make it thinner and improve the WR.


----------



## gangrel

41 is also somewhat limiting; a slimmer 38 would broaden appeal.

FHH is doing Watches and Wonders as a virtual show, in early April. That's basically the SIHH brands, and Swatch isn't a part of it. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Swatch does a big virtual show of their own around that time frame...much like they'd considered doing last year, after pulling out of Baselworld. 

I don't pay that much attention to Swiss quartz, but I don't think they make that kind of alteration all that often. I doubt the VHP sales would be that large, either; Longines has had an extremely popular run of mechanical models in the last few years.


----------



## dwalby

Miroslav said:


> let me take you back to the unpleasant noisy ticking ..
> Does anyone have a problem with it? Personally, it drives me crazy ... I don't know how they can design it like that ...


how loud is the ticking on your copy? On mine I can hear the second hand tick if I put the watch directly on my ear, but after its an inch or two away I can barely hear it if I pay attention, and beyond that I can no longer hear it.

compared to my Omega SMP quartz its maybe just a little louder ticking, but nothing that I've ever noticed in normal wearing.


----------



## aneflan

solved


----------



## dwalby

aneflan said:


> solved


care to elaborate?


----------



## gaborv

Hour hand is not resetting to zero, anybody knows how to set it back to zero? (It is like that for more than a week, so automatic hand resetting is not working.)


----------



## DaveM

gaborv said:


> Hour hand is not resetting to zero, anybody knows how to set it back to zero? (It is like that for more than a week, so automatic hand resetting is not working.)
> View attachment 16073785


*Very strange !*
Have you tried switching to energy-saving mode ( crown position 2 for more than 60s) ?
All of the hands ( I think ) should move to 12.

*The watch has 5 motors :-*

date
time seconds
time minutes ( with gear to hours )
chrono seconds
chrono minutes( with gear to half-hours )
The two chrono-motors have moved their hands to 12, but the chrono-minutes motor needs to do 1 more revolution ( the half-hour hand is reading one-half ).

*Gear-position detection is to look after small hand-changes due to vibration or magnetic-fields.*
Your watch seems to have lost a whole revolution ! 
My best guess is that there is a bug in the watch software .


----------



## gaborv

DaveM said:


> *Very strange !*
> Have you tried switching to energy-saving mode ( crown position 2 for more than 60s) ?
> All of the hands ( I think ) should move to 12.
> 
> *The watch has 5 motors :-*
> 
> date
> time seconds
> time minutes ( with gear to hours )
> chrono seconds
> chrono minutes( with gear to half-hours )
> The two chrono-motors have moved their hands to 12, but the chrono-minutes motor needs to do 1 more revolution ( the half-hour hand is reading one-half ).
> 
> *Gear-position detection is to look after small hand-changes due to vibration or magnetic-fields.*
> Your watch seems to have lost a whole revolution !
> My best guess is that there is a bug in the watch software .


I agree very strange.... 

Energy saving mode did not solve.


----------



## pizza_dog

Picked up a 41mm VHP GMT last week. Happy with it so far, but I’d love to swap out the clasp for something with microadjust. Has anyone managed to do it?


----------



## pizza_dog

Didn’t solve the clasp, but I tried out this spare Uncle Seiko bracelet I had left over from an Alpinist I’d flipped and it fits remarkably well.


----------



## mcmikey

I joined the new generation vhp club last week. A few days ago I put the watch into energy saving mode and when I woke it up yesterday it set to almost the correct time but the seconds hand was 20 seconds slow. Easily adjusted of course but has anyone else experienced that?

Cheers
Mike


----------



## Aspiniou

My new Longines VHP 36 mm. Posting some pictures because I couldn't find almost any when I was researching this watch. My wrist size is somewhere between 6.5 and 6.7 in.

Hitting all markers, looking good and Sleek, surprisingly heavy for such a small water but I enjoy the feel. The bracelet does have some sharp sides but fortunately for me I was able to adjust it so that I the fed is good and this problem only applies when the brace of this in misadjusted.


----------



## mcmikey

Here is my 41mm on my 7.5” wrist. Looks similarly proportioned I think.


----------



## attilab

Hello there, this is my first post on this forum.

Thanks to all the super useful information found in this thread, I was able to make an informed decision on whether or not to buy a VHP. So I’m a happy owner of a 41mm VHP GMT since today. I’m excited as this is my very first quartz watch, let alone a HAQ. I’m fascinated by the potential of it being accurate while also being an “offline” piece.

I’ve just sized the bracelet – I only needed to remove a half link to fit my 20.5 cm (~8”) wrist – and it feels OK size-wise, I still need to get used to to its shape and weight. The outer edges of the lugs are quite sharp to my liking, and in general wearing it comes with a slightly uncomfortable feeling – we’ll see if this passes with time. Oh, and despite being aware of its dimensions, I think this watch is thicker than its water resistance would warrant – but I’m cool with the 50m rating as it is.

I couldn’t quite get my head around how to set the time accurately using the crown. It always just moved the minute hand in 15 min increments no matter how I tried to spin it: slow or quick turns, long and short turns. Luckily the flash setting app worked like a charm, and I could set it – well at least to my phone’s clock.

Here’s some wrist shots in poor lighting.


----------



## mcmikey

Congratulations on your purchase! I have the non GMT version and I love it. It is certainly a bigger watch than I’m used to and the white dial makes it look even bigger but I have got used to it. The 50M WR is good for swimming and snorkelling so unless you Scuba dive it shouldn’t be a problem. I haven’t had a problem setting the time using the crown - it might just be a question of technique.


----------



## pizza_dog

@attilab The 15 minute thing means you’re in travel time mode. Push the crown once and seconds hand will jump to the house or the plane. Click once from there and it’ll swap the mode.

Quick “flicks” of the crown change the time hour by hour. The VHP app has a manual built in, or you can find them on the Longines website. The “smart crown” isn’t super intuitive, so it’s worth reading through that stuff.


----------



## attilab

@pizza_dog Gotcha, thanks. Now I've read the manual and was able to try out all the functions. Actually, the thick book with all the languages has a section for the GMT model now, I guess they caught up with it since 2017.
It's a cracking little piece, I like it a lot!

@mcmikey Thanks, actually, the 41mm isn't too big. I have a 44mm diver and a 43mm sports watch which don't look out of bounds at all on me, this one almost feels diminutive next to them, it's actually good that the dial is light. I'm sure 50m WR is just fine, as long as Longines say it's OK for swimming, I'm not fussed.


----------



## attilab

OK, as much as love the watch so far, it didn't take me long to ditch the bracelet. What a shame it doesn't come with any micro adjustments!
So I got this lovely strap instead, I think it goes well with the red accents in the dial.


----------



## johant

attilab said:


> OK, as much as love the watch so far, it didn't take me long to ditch the bracelet. What a shame it doesn't come with any micro adjustments!
> So I got this lovely strap instead, I think it goes well with the red accents in the dial.


Lovely combination. However, you can (or could) get half links from Longines.


----------



## mcmikey

attilab said:


> OK, as much as love the watch so far, it didn't take me long to ditch the bracelet. What a shame it doesn't come with any micro adjustments!
> So I got this lovely strap instead, I think it goes well with the red accents in the dial.
> 
> View attachment 16362379
> View attachment 16362377
> View attachment 16362378


I struggled for quite a while with the bracelet until I managed to find the right combination of half (actually 0.7) links and full links and now it’s fine. How it will work out in the summer is another matter. I read on another thread someone saying that white dials are far more versatile than black dials at strap-matching but I find the reverse to be true. Your red strap looks great but I’m not sure I could pull that off at work! I have just received an Artem sailcloth strap which I will try but so far I haven’t had any luck finding a strap I like.


----------



## attilab

Yes, the links next to the butterfly clasp are half links both sides on the full bracelet, I just had to remove one of them to get a more or less adequate fit. After a few days I figured it just didn't cut the mustard for me, even though I like a good bracelet.

So I removed it with a set of tweezers so the watch can live a multi-strap life from now on 
I have a dressier option too, but I needn't go dressy much these days. So many firsts for me with this watch: 1st quartz (a HAQ at that), first white dial, first GMT, first Longines, and first where I didn't like the bracelet. Still love it though!


----------



## bgroth393

I have looked all over the place (including the Longines forum on this site) but have been unable to find a programming manual for the month and leap year on a L3.716.4 watch (newer VHP edition watch). Looks like the ETA manual for the previous version is pretty widely available, and i am hoping someone can post the latest version's manual. i accidentally let the battery run out on mine, had a new battery put in but it lost its month and leap year status and i am trying to avoid sending it back to longines. any help would be greatly appreciated! 

Thanks so much!


----------



## attilab

attilab said:


> OK, as much as love the watch so far, it didn't take me long to ditch the bracelet. What a shame it doesn't come with any micro adjustments!
> So I got this lovely strap instead, I think it goes well with the red accents in the dial.


The quest to find the best red strap continues.
This is the Bonetto Cinturini 300. The clasp is mediocre quality at best, but it has "on the wrist" micro adjustments, and the natural rubber is quite supple!





















In other news, my VHP seems to be at about +0.95 s after 7 weeks of ownership which roughly translates to +7 SPY. Not quite the advertised +/-5 SPY but then I've only worn it for about 2 weeks total.


----------



## MikiBa

Hi, new here and soon to be a proud owner of a 36mm VHP ( small wrist men ). 
After months (or more likely years) of searching the perfect watch to add to my small GShocks and one piece ( Boldr Venture ) mechanical watch. 
spent time and time searching and looking at some awesome mechanical Swiss pieces but nothing was ticking all my boxes and I wasn’t confortable spending that kind of money on something that wasn’t perfect for me. And then suddenly some days ago a bit by luck I found that HAQ existed ( was probably reading things about GS spring drive who some models are dreams for me ). Saw a lot of The Citizens and Grand Seiko but availability and price where brake, and then here it is. The Longines V.H.P popped out of nowhere during my hours spent at looking for options in Reddit. Then I found this threat and the magic worked. I needed that watch. Even more after founding that a 36mm option existed ( can’t found it on Longines Website) Luckily for me, being in Switzerland mean it wasn’t really hard to found the 36mm option ( white dial ) and bonus to that with a 40% sale that made the Price competitive enough for me to jump on it even if the watch didn’t seemed to tick all the Boxes (but at this price I’m way more open to sacrifice some boxes than let’s say something 10x more expensive)
So all that to say thanks you all for all the pictures and info I found here and that helped me a lot in ordering it. Now a couple of days of waiting and it should be finally on my wrist


----------



## DaveM

Longines seem to have hugely reduced their range of VHP watches.
I Looked at UK, USA and Germany web-sites, all offered the same range.
Most of these options were listed 2 years ago :-








The red boxes indicate options which are no longer listed

No GMT
No 36mm, ceramic, diamonds or PVD cases
No carbon or MOP dial
No leather or rubber straps
Their web-site only lists

Time-only :- 41 & 43mm case - silver, blue & black dials
Chrono :- 42mm case - silver, blue & black dials
Most of the original options can still be found in the market-place, but in a years time ?
Perhaps this is just a reaction to current shortages !


----------



## ronalddheld

DaveM said:


> Longines seem to have hugely reduced their range of VHP watches.
> I Looked at UK, USA and Germany web-sites, all offered the same range.
> Most of these options were listed 2 years ago :-
> View attachment 16488678
> 
> The red boxes indicate options which are no longer listed
> 
> No GMT
> No 36mm, ceramic, diamonds or PVD cases
> No carbon or MOP dial
> No leather or rubber straps
> Their web-site only lists
> 
> Time-only :- 41 & 43mm case - silver, blue & black dials
> AChrono :- 42mm case - silver, blue & black dials
> Most of the original options can still be found in the market-place, but in a years time ?
> Perhaps this is just a reaction to current shortages !


Is this due to current economic conditions, or a harbinger of new models coming out?


----------



## attilab

DaveM said:


> No GMT
> No 36mm, ceramic, diamonds or PVD cases
> No carbon or MOP dial
> No leather or rubber straps


When I researched before purchasing my VHP not long ago I realised these are already being phased out. At least I got mine at a moderately discounted price, I don't mind.

It's also worth noting that Swatch group or not, the initial catalog had quite an ambitious range, I'm not surprised they rationalised it – too bad it's the more interesting models that are gone now.


----------



## MikiBa

My new little VHP is arrived home, grabbed it to the AD less than one hour ago and already loving the watch on my wrist. 36mm looks great for my size and liking. Bracelet isn’t perfectly fit ( slightly too loose ) but way good enough to wear it ( 1 link and 2 half links removed ) and some straps are on the way anyway.


----------



## OutOfSpec

MikiBa said:


> My new little VHP is arrived home, grabbed it to the AD less than one hour ago and already loving the watch on my wrist. 36mm looks great for my size and liking. Bracelet isn’t perfectly fit ( slightly too loose ) but way good enough to wear it ( 1 link and 2 half links removed ) and some straps are on the way anyway.
> 
> View attachment 16491619
> 
> View attachment 16491620
> 
> View attachment 16491617
> 
> View attachment 16491618
> 
> View attachment 16491616


That's the perfect size for you.


----------



## tmathes

DaveM said:


> Longines seem to have hugely reduced their range of VHP watches.
> I Looked at UK, USA and Germany web-sites, all offered the same range.
> Most of these options were listed 2 years ago :-
> View attachment 16488678
> 
> The red boxes indicate options which are no longer listed
> 
> No GMT
> No 36mm, ceramic, diamonds or PVD cases
> No carbon or MOP dial
> No leather or rubber straps
> Their web-site only lists
> 
> Time-only :- 41 & 43mm case - silver, blue & black dials
> Chrono :- 42mm case - silver, blue & black dials
> Most of the original options can still be found in the market-place, but in a years time ?
> Perhaps this is just a reaction to current shortages !


I still see the 41mm GMT on the US site available for order. 









CONQUEST V.H.P. GMT


Discover the L3.718.4.96.6 quartz watch from the CONQUEST V.H.P. GMT collection and let yourself be charmed by its stainless steel strap




www.longines.com





The 41mm time-only in blue shows "on request", which I assume means out of stock. White is availble though.






Longines® Watches Official e-shop in the United States | Longines®


Browse our collections of Swiss watches and discover Longines' expertise, built on tradition, elegance and performance since 1832




www.longines.com





But you're right nothing but bracelets, other dial designs are gone and the 36mm line are gone. The 36mm line going away is surprising since they'e not been out that long.


----------



## rozsid

MikiBa said:


> Hi, new here and soon to be a proud owner of a 36mm VHP ( small wrist men ).
> After months (or more likely years) of searching the perfect watch to add to my small GShocks and one piece ( Boldr Venture ) mechanical watch.
> spent time and time searching and looking at some awesome mechanical Swiss pieces but nothing was ticking all my boxes and I wasn’t confortable spending that kind of money on something that wasn’t perfect for me. And then suddenly some days ago a bit by luck I found that HAQ existed ( was probably reading things about GS spring drive who some models are dreams for me ). Saw a lot of The Citizens and Grand Seiko but availability and price where brake, and then here it is. The Longines V.H.P popped out of nowhere during my hours spent at looking for options in Reddit. Then I found this threat and the magic worked. I needed that watch. Even more after founding that a 36mm option existed ( can’t found it on Longines Website) Luckily for me, being in Switzerland mean it wasn’t really hard to found the 36mm option ( white dial ) and bonus to that with a 40% sale that made the Price competitive enough for me to jump on it even if the watch didn’t seemed to tick all the Boxes (but at this price I’m way more open to sacrifice some boxes than let’s say something 10x more expensive)
> So all that to say thanks you all for all the pictures and info I found here and that helped me a lot in ordering it. Now a couple of days of waiting and it should be finally on my wrist


hey there, i am new here too. looking for this 36mm. tried to pm you but mayb being new i can't seem to. May i ask how much you got it for?


----------



## MikiBa

rozsid said:


> hey there, i am new here too. looking for this 36mm. tried to pm you but mayb being new i can't seem to. May i ask how much you got it for?


Didn’t see where to found PM, but can answer that here. I got it for 570CHF


----------



## rozsid

MikiBa said:


> 570CHF


nice thats very affordable. unfortunately where i am, the 36mm model isnt avail anymore.  great watch. wear it well


----------



## gtuck

This is so sad....the silver three hand VHP 41mm is one of my favorite watches. My others, much much more expensive, sat lonely and unworn for a couple years.


----------



## vintorez




----------



## skspectre

I'm glad I got my 41 black dial VHP GMT when they first came out. When I was still flying around the country, the quick crown press to change between 'home' and 'away' time zones was great. Perpetual calendar is nice too. I just wish they hadn't darkened the indices; dark on black is hard to read except in bright light.


----------



## DaveM

skspectre said:


> I'm glad I got my 41 black dial VHP GMT when they first came out. When I was still flying around the country, the quick crown press to change between 'home' and 'away' time zones was great.


*The time-zone change is a vey nice feature.*
It could easily be implemented on 'basic' VHP which currently ignore crown-presses.

*Today is 'clocks forward 1 hour for daylight saving' day in the UK.*
When I flash-programmed the GMT it learnt how to calculate 'UK savings-day' and now it automatically makes the change for me.
I think that it is the only watch which makes this change without a 'hint' from an outside intelligence ( ie satellite) .
It is surprising that Longines do not mention this nice feature in their publicity !


----------



## JohnDr

I got mine today from an AD. Black dial, black case and bracelet. Not available anymore from the Longines website. 










When I got my first „luxury watch“ (an Omega), I thought I would never buy an expensive Quartz watch. And here I am.


EDIT:

I cannot understand why they put such an uncomfortable butterfly clasp on such a nice and expensive watch. 

Is this common in other Longines watches as well?


----------



## Colourise

Has anybody changed the battery by themselves on a VHP conquest (2017)?

I have been quoted 5 to 7 working days by a Longines boutique here in the UK which seems excessive just to change a battery. I was told on the telephone that it was a special battery.

I thought the battery was a 380/SR936W which appears to be widely available. If anyone can give me some advice on this I should be grateful.
thank you


----------



## DaveM

Colourise said:


> Has anybody changed the battery by themselves on a VHP conquest (2017)?
> 
> I have been quoted 5 to 7 working days by a Longines boutique here in the UK which seems excessive just to change a battery. I was told on the telephone that it was a special battery.
> 
> I thought the battery was a 380/SR936W which appears to be widely available. If anyone can give me some advice on this I should be grateful.
> thank you


Changed the battery on mine, used 380/SR936W as printed on movement.
Found it difficult to replace the 2 battery-cover screws ( my lack of watch-making skill).
Apart from that all went well & the watch is working fine.


----------



## Colourise

@DaveM 
Thanks for the reply. That sounds encouraging.

Did you use a particular make of tool to remove the back of the watch?
The "Slots" are not square and wondered if a special tools was required. I have a "Jaxa" type of case opener. Would this be OK?

thanks


----------



## DaveM

Not sure what a "Jaxa" is, but anything with 3 pins that fit in the slots should work.
I use this :-








It is a cheap 'for amateurs' item but works very well. 
I have just Googled 'Rolson watch case opener' & found them at prices between £3.02 and £9.91.
How can they be so cheap ?


----------



## Colourise

@DaveM 
Thanks for the information.
That is the type of case opener I have, which means it should work, if I use it correctly.

My understanding is that the three pin case openers are referred to as a JAXA or "JAXA type" case opener. Perhaps another forum member can provide more information and/or will correct me if I am wrong)

Thanks once again for your help


----------



## MikiBa

I have an issue with my one month old ( or something like that ) VHP 36. The crown didn’t work anymore. Couple of days that I noticed the watch wouldn’t go into battery savings mode when I pull the crown out after a minute. It usually now go way later and exits the savings mode as soon as I touch the watch in the morning. And with the crown pulled I now can’t even set the time. Fast or slow. Nothing change. Did someone already had an issue like that ?


----------



## DaveM

MikiBa said:


> I have an issue with my one month old ( or something like that ) VHP 36. The crown didn’t work anymore. Couple of days that I noticed the watch wouldn’t go into battery savings mode when I pull the crown out after a minute. It usually now go way later and exits the savings mode as soon as I touch the watch in the morning. And with the crown pulled I now can’t even set the time. Fast or slow. Nothing change. Did someone already had an issue like that ?


Sounds like an unreliable 'crown out' contact.
The crown is quite a complex switching system & probably the least reliable part of the watch.
It is also the reason for water-resistance being only 5bar.
Needs a warranty-visit, but you might get it to work by a bit of a 'crown out push' with your finger-nail between the back of the crown and the case.


----------



## JohnDr

I checked the accuracy of my VHP (bought about 3 weeks ago) and I am not really excited. +0.9 sec in 16 days… Thats a little far from the +/- 5 sec/year a VHP should have. I will check it for another month an maybe send it to Longines.


----------



## mcmikey

JohnDr said:


> I checked the accuracy of my VHP (bought about 3 weeks ago) and I am not really excited. +0.9 sec in 15 days… Thats a little far from the +/- 5 sec/year a VHP should have. I will check it for another month an maybe send it to Longines.


Have you been wearing it all the time? I’m fairly convinced the 5spy is if it is worn continuously.


----------



## JohnDr

mcmikey said:


> Have you been wearing it all the time? I’m fairly convinced the 5spy is if it is worn continuously.


No, not continuously. 

Yes, what you say has been reported by others as well. However, Longines does “promise” this range of 10 sec (+/- 5 sec/year) no matter if you wear it or not. 

And, to be honest, almost 1 sec in 16 days is a lot… We’ll see.


----------



## konax

Someone asked about real world battery life vs Longines stated 4 years, mine (regular time and date version, not chrono and not gmt) lasted 3 years and one month and now have entered the EOL mode. I bought it brand new from an AD.


----------



## DaveM

JohnDr said:


> Longines does “promise” this range of 10 sec (+/- 5 sec/year) no matter if you wear it or not.
> 
> And, to be honest, almost 1 sec in 16 days is a lot… We’ll see.


Where do Longines *Promise *Anything about the VHP accuracy ?
I cannot find any mention of 5spy in their up-to-date documentation.
Based on my tests (of only 3) VHP a *new* watch may well be within 10 spy.
This one was bought a couple of months ago








My 2 year old GMT is within 10spy when warmer than 18C
But my 5 year old VHP is now about 23spy slow ( 1 second in 16 days) at 14C.
And how 'Longines factory' old is a 'new from shop' watch ?


----------



## Mister Owen

Longines references +/-5 seconds/year in the watches' documentation, in advertising and did so explicitly when they launched the model. Here's an example:

VHP Info Longines US

My VHP GMT was between 3 and 4 seconds off in its first year and that's been the standard rate so far (bought in 2020). I also experienced deviations of one or two seconds in a relatively short time frame, but came out in spec at the end of the year. The way this watch works (at least that's how I understand it), you can't extrapolate from a deviation logged over a certain timeframe to what the deviation will be in a month or a year. The VHP has an internal digital clock and regularly checks if the motor driven hands are positioned correspondingly. If not, it will correct itself. So running late a second over a week doesn't mean it will be off by 50 after a year.


----------



## JohnDr

DaveM said:


> Where do Longines *Promise *Anything about the VHP accuracy ?
> I cannot find any mention of 5spy in their up-to-date documentation.



For example here
 https://www.longines.com/uploads/c...pdf/longines-technical-information-vhp-en.pdf



DaveM said:


> And how 'Longines factory' old is a 'new from shop' watch ?


That’s a good question…



Mister Owen said:


> Longines references +/-5 seconds/year in the watches' documentation, in advertising and did so explicitly when they launched the model. Here's an example:
> 
> VHP Info Longines US
> 
> My VHP GMT was between 3 and 4 seconds off in its first year and that's been the standard rate so far (bought in 2020). I also experienced deviations of one or two seconds in a relatively short time frame, but came out in spec at the end of the year. The way this watch works (at least that's how I understand it), you can't extrapolate from a deviation logged over a certain timeframe to what the deviation will be in a month or a year. The VHP has an internal digital clock and regularly checks if the motor driven hands are positioned correspondingly. If not, it will correct itself. So running late a second over a week doesn't mean it will be off by 50 after a year.


That’s interesting. Thank you.


----------



## ZinnU1B

I have only one V.H.P., but check it every 2-3 days.
So my experience is, that my watch does not want to be set. It runs so-so around 8 seconds per year, but whenever I set the watch (to bring the seconds close to zero) it takes more than two weeks (which are 6-8 precise comparisons) to find back to a smooth run. And with age it seems to get a little faster (increases the spy).
See for yourselves








x-axis: every line is a week


----------



## DaveM

VHP accuracy


JohnDr said:


> For example here
> https://www.longines.com/uploads/cu...pdf/longines-technical-information-vhp-en.pdf


You are right, if you dig around you can find old documents which mention 5spy.
But I have just browsed the latest UK sales-information and see no mention of 5spy

Here is what Longines have to say about their VHP and their 'Standard' Conquest watches.
*VHP*

















*Standard Quartz















*
10spy is my opinion on the precision of the VHP, and 10spy is good enough for me !
I think that non-perpetual calendars are negative feature. They

Are a practical waste of time
Reduce the reliability of the movement
The main downside of the VHP is 5bar WR as against 30bar for the standard quartz.
Many contributors to our forum have commented on this weakness.


----------



## konax

I tried to replace the battery today: crown pulled, removed the caseback, unscrewed the screws holding that little "basket" that contains the battery, put a fresh one (Renata 380, same as factory), put it back together, screwed everything back. While I was putting the little screws back, the hands started doing their crazy dance back and forth, which I guessed was for adjusting the time. After a while they stopped at 12.00 and now just stay there, no matter crown in or out.
What did I screw up?


edit: This watch is way smarter than I am. Apparently by removing the battery I entered time setting mode, mind you it was not like the standard "crown out" time setting, but more like synching hands AND the date too. Pretty neat feature, albeit tricky to understand for the first time. But now I'm spot on with the atomic clock and with a fresh battery. Also looks like once it is set you cannot enter this mode again without removing the battery again.


----------



## DaveM

konax said:


> edit: This watch is way smarter than I am. Apparently by removing the battery I entered time setting mode, mind you it was not like the standard "crown out" time setting, but more like synching hands AND the date too. Pretty neat feature, albeit tricky to understand for the first time. But now I'm spot on with the atomic clock and with a fresh battery. Also looks like once it is set you cannot enter this mode again without removing the battery again.


Glad that it is now OK, I was worried that my problem-free battery-change had encouraged others to enter dangerous waters.
Just to be clear :-
If you leave the crown pulled out for more than 1 minute the watch enters 'power save' mode
The 3 hands park at 12 ( but date does not change)
It may not matter, but I use this battery-change procedure :-

Crown out
Wait until watch enters power-save mode ( hands park at 12 )
Change battery
Wait 1 minute then push in the crown


----------



## attilab

I now started to wonder if the GMT models' flash setting via the phone app doubles as a "factory date setting". As in, would it be able to still take the date/time even if it were out of juice for too long?


----------



## RCS1300

I have had the white dial with date complication model for over one year. It is very accurate. It gains about 1 second every four months. Many times I put it in storage mode by pulling out the crown and then storing the watch in a watch roll for a month or two. When I take it out of storage I simply push the crown back in and the current time and date are presented within seconds. Very nice.

The downside is that because it is a battery powered quartz watch the seconds hand does not give you the feel of a quality automatic and the water resistance is almost non-existent with the push down crown. The upside is that I never have to wind it or set it.


----------



## Ziptie

RCS1300 said:


> the water resistance is almost non-existent with the push down crown.


Honestly, the WR is an embarrassment, and one of the reasons I talked myself out of this model. Citizen has shipped plenty of watches with 200m WR and push-pull crowns. I don’t understand why Longines can’t.


----------



## DaveM

Ziptie said:


> Honestly, the WR is an embarrassment, and one of the reasons I talked myself out of this model. Citizen has shipped plenty of watches with 200m WR and push-pull crowns. I don’t understand why Longines can’t.


All VHP have a 'push in' crown, but the feature is only used on the GMT.
I think that It would be very simple to modify 3-hand and Chrono versions from 'push in' to 'screw-down' crown.
Their WR could then increase to the 300m of the mechanical Conquest .


----------



## Ziptie

DaveM said:


> All VHP have a 'push in' crown, but the feature is only used on the GMT.
> I think that It would be very simple to modify 3-hand and Chrono versions from 'push in' to 'screw-down' crown.
> Their WR could then increase to the 300m of the mechanical Conquest .


It’s a common myth that threads increase WR. Mostly threads secure the crown in place to protect the crown/stem from impact. It’s the gaskets that provide WR. Hence watches mentioned above with high WR and no threads. 

Whatever the reason, their engineers considered the options and tradeoffs. Perhaps the electronics are more sensitive to humidity than a mechanical movement. Maybe they really wanted the user experience of the push in function and that’s harder to seal against risk of impact. Could be a combination of things.


----------



## DaveM

Ziptie said:


> It’s a common myth that threads increase WR. Mostly threads secure the crown in place to protect the crown/stem from impact. It’s the gaskets that provide WR. Hence watches mentioned above with high WR and no threads.
> 
> Whatever the reason, their engineers considered the options and tradeoffs. Perhaps the electronics are more sensitive to humidity than a mechanical movement. Maybe they really wanted the user experience of the push in function and that’s harder to seal against risk of impact. Could be a combination of things.


The user does not have the 'experience of the push in function' on 3-hand and chrono models ( 99% ? of production ).

I agree that gaskets provide WR.
In a screw-down crown the threads just keep the 'gasket-gate' firmly closed.
So it should be easy to

Replace the 'push-down spring' by a thread
Replace the 'push-down switch' by a gasket

When the VHP was designed the options that the push-in crown gave for future products was probably thought to outweigh the reduction in WR.
5 years later :-

None of the models on the UK web-site use the push-in crown
Feedback from this forum suggest that the reduction in WR is a significant barrier to sales
Need I say more ?


----------



## RCS1300

Ziptie said:


> It’s a common myth that threads increase WR. Mostly threads secure the crown in place to protect the crown/stem from impact. It’s the gaskets that provide WR. Hence watches mentioned above with high WR and no threads.
> 
> Whatever the reason, their engineers considered the options and tradeoffs. Perhaps the electronics are more sensitive to humidity than a mechanical movement. Maybe they really wanted the user experience of the push in function and that’s harder to seal against risk of impact. Could be a combination of things.


The threads allow the crown to compress the gasket crown and provide a tighter seal compared to a push down crown. The water resistance difference a screw down crown makes is meaningfully significant.

Put a different way, if what you suggest is true all manufacturers would have push down crowns as they are less expensive to manufacture.


----------



## Ziptie

RCS1300 said:


> Put a different way, if what you suggest is true all manufacturers would have push down crowns as they are less expensive to manufacture.


I’m not denying threads can help, especially at higher WRs. Just they’re not necessary to get up to 200m.

In most cases (on non-dive watches), I suspect it’s a marketing feature, because everybody thinks they need screw crowns. Just like nobody needs a mechanical movement when a cheaper quartz is more accurate and more reliable. It’s aesthetic.


----------



## Ziptie

DaveM said:


> The user does not have the 'experience of the push in function' on 3-hand and chrono models ( 99% ? of production ).
> 
> I agree that gaskets provide WR.
> In a screw-down crown the threads just keep the 'gasket-gate' firmly closed.
> So it should be easy to
> 
> Replace the 'push-down spring' by a thread
> Replace the 'push-down switch' by a gasket
> 
> When the VHP was designed the options that the push-in crown gave for future products was probably thought to outweigh the reduction in WR.
> 5 years later :-
> 
> None of the models on the UK web-site use the push-in crown
> Feedback from this forum suggest that the reduction in WR is a significant barrier to sales
> Need I say more ?


I never said it was a good decision, just that they made the trade off.


----------



## ronalddheld

I must be an outlier, as splash resistant is good enough for me.


----------



## attilab

Also, the Longines manual states that their 50m WR VHP is fine for swimming so I'm OK with that. Although I have to admit that I never swam with my VHP on the wrist but that's only by coincidence, I suppose.


----------



## RCS1300

I would not wash a car with my Longines VHP watch. Concerned about the water pressure the watch would experience dealing with pressurized water.


----------



## attilab

RCS1300 said:


> I would not wash a car with my Longines VHP watch. Concerned about the water pressure the watch would experience dealing with pressurized water.


Well, I wouldn't wash my car with my wrist on it either but I suppose not because of pressurised water. I mean, if I managed to somehow aim the nozzle of my pressure washer at my wrist, I'd have a bigger problem than my watch getting wet 
Jokes aside, I'd be more concerned by the exposure to chemicals, like car shampoo'd water in the bucket, or the residue on the crystal from wax or detail sprays etc.


----------



## JohnDr

After being a mechanical watch guy since 2017 and after having worn my VHP for approximately 2 months, I have to say I find it to be a very good watch. Of course, having a better water resistance would be nice. The butterfly clasp is not something to love. 

BUT, it is a good-looking, smart and precise Quartz watch. I own the simple version, but I find the GMT version extremely helpful for somebody who’s crossing different time zones.


----------



## Mister Owen

attilab said:


> Also, the Longines manual states that their 50m WR VHP is fine for swimming so I'm OK with that.


As far as I remember, the Longines manual states that WR50 is ok for swimming with watches that have a screw down crown. I explicitly asked Longines customer service if they recommend the VHP WR50 for a swim in the pool and they plainly said no.


----------



## attilab

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that. Like I said, I haven't swum with my VHP yet and I will probably not going to after learning this.


----------



## RCS1300

I have a VHP and the AD that sold me the watch said the same. Do not swim with the watch and suggested that I not even shower with it. But, the watch is awesome and accurate as advertised. It is a lazy man's watch and I like that.


----------



## Mister Owen

This is from a product documentation of watches with screw down crowns often referred to as a general rule for all Longines watches. 

But the VHP is explicitly not for the pool. Personally, I think that is its biggest weakness, 100m and pool compatibility would make it a near perfect travel watch.


----------



## RegularStormy

Mister Owen said:


> View attachment 16634967
> 
> 
> This is from a product documentation of watches with screw down crowns often referred to as a general rule for all Longines watches.
> 
> But the VHP is explicitly not for the pool. Personally, I think that is its biggest weakness, 100m and pool compatibility would make it a near perfect travel watch.


I'm sorry I'm missing it, but where on there does it say that is for screw down Crowns only? That looks like a general page that would exist on every watch manual.


----------



## Mister Owen

Look at the filename of the PDF in the URL. And like I said, I asked them, and they said this doesn't apply to VHPs.


----------



## Aspiniou

Mister Owen said:


> But the VHP is explicitly not for the pool. Personally, I think that is its biggest weakness, 100m and pool compatibility would make it a near perfect travel watch.


Well, that's a shame. I was just thinking of taking my VHP to my vacation that will involve swimming. Guess I'll take a G-Shock and have the peace of mind. Thanks for making sure!


----------



## kapahoo

Been swimming, showering etc with mine. No problem.
But of course, thats just one watch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TypeR10

hey, by any chance I'll find VHP 36mm ( L33164766 ) new somewhere? I've not done it yet unfortunately.
and by any chance someone here who can compare its quality to a Smith's Everest, please?


----------



## attilab

TypeR10 said:


> hey, by any chance I'll find VHP 36mm ( L33164766 ) new somewhere? I've not done it yet unfortunately.
> any by any chance someone here who can compare its quality to a Smit's Everest, please?


I own a VHP GMT and while I don't own or have handled the Everest, I have a Speedbird III (with a PRS-1 dial). I would say the build quality of the case is probably on par – which is a shame to Longines. Both have sharp-ish lug edges but generally OK although the thickness of the VHP does not feel justified. The oyster style bracelet of the VHP however is better than the bracelet of the Speedbird, the former more "liquid" in motion and overall a nicer wearing experience. Both have great dials, but being very different in style, there's not much to compare there. The second hand of the VHP hits the markers perfectly which is a nice touch.

Hope that helps a little.


----------



## TypeR10

attilab said:


> I own a VHP GMT and while I don't own or have handled the Everest, I have a Speedbird III (with a PRS-1 dial). I would say the build quality of the case is probably on par – which is a shame to Longines. Both have sharp-ish lug edges but generally OK although the thickness of the VHP does not feel justified. The oyster style bracelet of the VHP however is better than the bracelet of the Speedbird, the former more "liquid" in motion and overall a nicer wearing experience. Both have great dials, but being very different in style, there's not much to compare there. The second hand of the VHP hits the markers perfectly which is a nice touch.
> 
> Hope that helps a little.


it does a lot, thanks.
I'd not have thought they're par on case quality.
Spedbird's bracelet is a bit different than the Everest's one. hope the latter is a bit better.
not convinced about worth changing 2 of Everests for a VHP but admit that looks stunning and the quartz movement is awesome.


----------



## attilab

TypeR10 said:


> ut admit that looks stunning and the quartz movement is awesome.


well, yes, I didn’t state the obvious, the movement of the VHP, especially in GMT form, where the smart crown becomes usable, it is indeed a technical feat!


----------



## skspectre

TypeR10 said:


> not convinced about worth changing 2 of Everests for a VHP but admit that looks stunning and the quartz movement is awesome.


As someone who currently owns a VHP GMT and previously had a Smiths Everest, I can say there is no comparison between the two. While Longines is lower on the Swatch totem pole, the quality is much better than Smiths. I found Smiths to be of comparable quality to San Martin. Since they are both made in China, it certainly looks like they share the same case and other components. They are finished well for the price, but not (IMHO) to the same standards as Longines.


----------



## attilab

Maybe it's just me but I don't see or feel a particular quality jump in case finishing when comparing my Speedbird to my VHP. One could argue the Longines is better – I'll give you that it probably is, but it's miles away even from my Formex Essence.


----------



## TypeR10

skspectre said:


> As someone who currently owns a VHP GMT and previously had a Smiths Everest, I can say there is no comparison between the two. While Longines is lower on the Swatch totem pole, the quality is much better than Smiths. I found Smiths to be of comparable quality to San Martin. Since they are both made in China, it certainly looks like they share the same case and other components. They are finished well for the price, but not (IMHO) to the same standards as Longines.


intersting debate however not really about Longines. Smiths is definetely made in China as is the San Martin.
I can easily admit that finishing standard seems to be not on par with Longines (however attilab experienced differently) but the price also a half of it... maybe not the finishing standard too.


----------



## JohnDr

I just checked the website and the GMT versions of the V.H.P. seem to have disappeared (in Germany).
This is strange. Moreover, the prices of the normal (non-GMT versions) have been reduced.


----------



## dwalby

A few observations on low battery mode (second hand jumps in five second intervals), and the process of changing the battery.

First, once it goes into low battery mode, you can't adjust the time. It won't go into the battery save mode either, the normal crown functions appear to all be disabled. I was a bit surprised at that, since supposedly the low battery mode gives you 6 months to change the battery, so I expected the watch to work normally in that mode.

Then, after replacing the battery it went into the battery save mode, with all hands at 12 o'clock, and seemed to be stuck there. Normally just pressing the crown inward puts it back in normal timekeeping mode, but that didn't seem to work. Then I tried pressing the crown inward and held it for a few seconds and it started ticking. 

After that, pulling the crown out and rotating it did something unusual, the minute hand would move in either 5 minute, or 15 minute intervals, not the usual way it works. A little more crown twisting and then it finally went into the normal time adjustment mode where turning the crown slowly advances the minute hand.

Curious if anyone else has changed the battery on theirs, and if they noticed this same odd behavior.


----------



## tomchicago

Maybe some new models coming around, perhaps with 10+ bar WR?


----------



## gangrel

Not the case on the US site. The chronographs are listed...3 dial colors. There's only 1 dial option for the 43 mm 3-hander, the blue. All the 41 mm 3-handers are listed as Notify Me When Available. These days, we can't be sure if that's "we're getting rid of it" or "there are supply chain issues messing with us." But all the 41's...the GMT too...have that.

I'm not seeing the prices being any lower.

JohnDR: I wonder if you were looking at the Conquest page? That's completely separate from the Conquest VHP page. The Conquest does have 41 and 43, and the dials are 90% the same too. Clarity in marketing.....what a concept!!!


----------



## ZinnU1B

I fear I observe an early battery change mode such that the rate per day over the last 25 days drops from +8s/y over 0 now to -2s/y. To be forearmed, can you tell me the appropriate battery? I have 20 different batteries in stock, but it happens that the one I need is just not there. When the 5s mode enters, I want to be able to change battery immediately.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

There have been a few posts about changing the VHP batteries in the long "Longines VHP 2017 Collection" thread, starting here.


----------



## JohnDr

gangrel said:


> JohnDR: I wonder if you were looking at the Conquest page? That's completely separate from the Conquest VHP page. The Conquest does have 41 and 43, and the dials are 90% the same too. Clarity in marketing.....what a concept!!!


I was looking at the Conquest V.H.P. page. 
prices are again a little bit higher in the meantime. But the GMT models are still missing. 
Crazy…


----------



## Nokie

I have changed the battery in mine before, but experienced none of the issues you had with yours. 

They can be finicky, but it should not make those sudden movements, IMHO.

Good luck. Hope you get it working as it should.


----------



## JohnDr

After 5 months with the V.H.P. I have to say that it is an awesome and extremely accurate watch! I have the all-black version and I love it. 

A steel version with a WR of 100M would be a nearly „perfect“ GADA watch.


----------



## DaveM

dwalby said:


> A few observations on low battery mode (second hand jumps in five second intervals), and the process of changing the battery.
> 
> First, once it goes into low battery mode, you can't adjust the time. It won't go into the battery save mode either, the normal crown functions appear to all be disabled. I was a bit surprised at that, since supposedly the low battery mode gives you 6 months to change the battery, so I expected the watch to work normally in that mode.
> 
> Then, after replacing the battery it went into the battery save mode, with all hands at 12 o'clock, and seemed to be stuck there. Normally just pressing the crown inward puts it back in normal timekeeping mode, but that didn't seem to work. Then I tried pressing the crown inward and held it for a few seconds and it started ticking.
> 
> After that, pulling the crown out and rotating it did something unusual, the minute hand would move in either 5 minute, or 15 minute intervals, not the usual way it works. A little more crown twisting and then it finally went into the normal time adjustment mode where turning the crown slowly advances the minute hand.
> 
> Curious if anyone else has changed the battery on theirs, and if they noticed this same odd behavior.


*I had not used my GMT for a few weeks when I noticed that the second hand was jumping in 5s steps*
– a signal that a battery change is needed.
Having already changed the battery on another (time only) VHP I thought that it would be easy.

*I pulled out the crown* to put it into ‘sleep’ mode before changing the battery.
Hour-adjust (fast tweak) worked, but *minute adjust did not work*.
*The watch would not enter sleep mode ( all hands at 12).*
These symptoms are the same as reported by Dwalby.
Perhaps ‘sleep’ mode is inhibited so that the ‘5s tick’ warning is not hidden.

*Then I changed the battery. *The time-reading did not change :-
- 22 minutes and 27 seconds after 12, 12.5 hours GMT
- Date half way between 5 and 6 ( the correct date was 19th )

I pushed in the crown. The watch did not do a ‘re-align hand-dance’, but started to tick
I flash-set the watch to my local time.
The reading changed to 22minutes and 27s (12.5 hours GMT-hand) fast of the correct time
* - The watch indicated the wrong time
- The seconds hand did not correctly indicate home/travel icons
- The 4 hands did not go to 12 in 'sleep' mode.*
Apart from the hand alignment and date problems it seemed to work OK.

The manual says :-
_The GPD system (Gear Position Detection ) automatically resets the hands
after a shock or exposure to a magnetic field, either :-
immediately, or at 3am if the problem isn’t resolved right away. _
*It worked, the next morning seconds, minutes, hour and GMT hands were working perfectly !

The date was still wrong, but it had changed from 5/6 to 6/7.
I think that because of the low battery the date had ‘jammed up’ half way between 2 numbers before the battery-change. It needed a re-calibration, but it seems that routine GPD does not correct the date-wheel.*

I guessed that the hand-alignment problem had occurred because the watch had not noticed that the battery had changed.
*I decided to try again with this procedure :-
- Crown Out
- Remove battery and wait 5 minutes
- Fit battery*
The date-wheel did a big dance then went to the correct date
The other hands did a big dance then went to the 0am ‘sleep’ position.

*All looked good, the only problem was that the watch seemed to have died in its sleep ! *
I started to worry, but found the post from Dwalby and tried long inward presses of the crown. Eventually it woke up and the hands moved around a bit before it started to tick. I set the correct time and everything worked perfectly.

*I decided to try again and ended up with this procedure :-
- Crown Out
- Remove old battery and wait 5 minutes
- Fit new battery.* Date and hands do big dance and end up at 0am, correct date.
* - Push crown back in 
- Push crown down for a few seconds. Time goes to 2:10 and 40s
- Release crown then push down again for a few seconds
- Watch starts to work normally

I think that my experiences are same as reported by Dwalby.
I did not have problems on the previous battery-change of my time-only watch*
? pulling out the crown
? time without battery
Also the previous-change watch did not have a date-wheel problem

*Battery-change does seem tricky, but my final procedure seems to work OK
If the watch does not recover from the battery-change immediately do not panic !*


----------



## dwalby

DaveM said:


> *Battery-change does seem tricky, but my final procedure seems to work OK
> If the watch does not recover from the battery-change immediately do not panic !*


Since my post I came upon information that explained what we were seeing with the weird hand movements upon restart, its related to setting the perpetual calendar, which apparently can be reset by the user. I'm not going to repeat what it said, because the person wasn't sure about the exact details, so I don't want to provide incorrect information on the process.

But, he/she seemed to have figured out the process well enough to explain the stages. The first step where the hands all go to 12 allows for individual hand re-alignment if necessary. Holding the crown in for 2-3 seconds moves past that stage. Then when it goes into the hands moving in 5 minute steps stage, that displays the month/year/decade info with the hands for setting the perpetual calendar. Holding the crown in for 2-3 seconds moves past that stage.

Do not press the crown while the hands are moving during either of these stages, wait until they are stopped and do a long crown press of 2-3 seconds after each one. A short crown press will enter an adjustment mode, which shouldn't be needed for either of these steps, so just do the long press after each one.


----------



## DaveM

dwalby said:


> Since my post I came upon information that explained what we were seeing with the weird hand movements upon restart, its related to setting the perpetual calendar, which apparently can be reset by the user. I'm not going to repeat what it said, because the person wasn't sure about the exact details, so I don't want to provide incorrect information on the process.
> 
> But, he/she seemed to have figured out the process well enough to explain the stages. The first step where the hands all go to 12 allows for individual hand re-alignment if necessary. Holding the crown in for 2-3 seconds moves past that stage. Then when it goes into the hands moving in 5 minute steps stage, that displays the month/year/decade info with the hands for setting the perpetual calendar. Holding the crown in for 2-3 seconds moves past that stage.
> 
> Do not press the crown while the hands are moving during either of these stages, wait until they are stopped and do a long crown press of 2-3 seconds after each one. A short crown press will enter an adjustment mode, which shouldn't be needed for either of these steps, so just do the long press after each one.


I thought that the '2 hours, 10 minutes and 40s' time that I saw was some sort of message !

The date window went to 21
40 seconds = 8 times 5 = August
10 minutes = 2 times 5 = 2 years
2 hours = 2 = 20 years
*So the watch thought that the date was 21st August 2022 !*
I made a long press of the crown to accept this date & the watch left set-up mode
After a short press I could have modified it !

I made a video of the "dance before hands go to 12' but it is 156MB & too big to post here.
The movements were also quite complicated, it looks as if GPD does more than just alignment at one angle.


----------



## DaveM

*I have done more battery-changes on my GMT & used the following procedure several times without problem.*
Before the change I flash-set the date to 12th November 2028 to check that the re-synchronisation works.
*I do not pull out the crown,* but it does not seem to matter whether you pull it out or not.

*I Remove the battery, and leave the watch without battery for 5 minutes.*
I have found that the watch does not enter the correct ‘new battery’ procedure unless given a few minutes to detect that the battery has been removed.

*I then fit the new battery*
The date wheel does a complicated dance to check its position, but it ends up where it started.
The hands do a complicated dance to check their positions, then they all park at 12 o-clock

*After the hands have parked I wait for 5 minutes.*
I have found that the watch ignores any crown-presses for a few minutes after the end of the hand-dance. Perhaps it is preparing for the synchronisation procedure. When I first tried doing battery-changes this ‘sleep time’ had me worried !

*I then long-press the crown.*
After about 2 seconds the hands move to :-

Seconds hand at 11-hour mark = November
Minutes hand at 8-hour mark = 8 year
Hour hand after the 2-hour mark = 20 year
The date stays at 12.
The watch has remembered the pre-change date of 12th November 2028
Normally I would then long-press the crown to resume normal operation, but because I had flash-set the wrong date I need to do a re-synchronisation.
*I need to change the date back to 25th August 2022.

I short-press the crown and the seconds hand rocks.
- By rotating the crown, I move it to 8
After another short-press the date rocks.
- By rotating the crown, I move it to 25
After another short-press the minutes hand rocks.
- By rotating the crown I set the time to 10 minutes past 2.*
After another short-press of the seconds hand rocks, the procedure could be repeated.
If I leave the watch alone for more than 1 minute the hands go back to 12. and the adjustments are lost.

*At the end of the procedure the watch is reading :-
- 2 hour 10minutes and 8 seconds on the 25th *which indicates a date of 25th August 2022
*I long-press the crown.
After about 2 seconds :-

The seconds, minute and hour hands go to 12
The date does not change.
The watch starts to tick
When I check the GMT hand, both time-zones are showing 12am
*
I correct the time in the normal way and everything is back to normal.
Before the change both time-zones had been set to British summer-time, one hour early of GMT.
When I flash-set the local time to BST neither local nor travel-time changes.
This shows that the time-zones have been remembered.

I have not done the ultimate test of leaving the watch without battery for a few days.
The re-synchronisation described above would probably still work, but it is possible that other settings might be lost. One -unlikely but possible- problem is the loss of rate-calibration, which would be serious !
I have only used this procedure on the GMT. Based on my experience and various posts I think that the 3-hander will work in the same way.

*The bottom line is that battery-change and resetting the month and year is quite easy.
I do not know why Longines have been secretive about it !*


----------



## Chasy

With so many pages to read... could anyone update us on accuracy of aged VHPs?

Is there any rate drift over years?

I recall there is no user calibration....


----------



## ronalddheld

Chasy said:


> With so many pages to read... could anyone update us on accuracy of aged VHPs?
> 
> Is there any rate drift over years?
> 
> I recall there is no user calibration....


Which VHPs recent or vintage?
Did you search this thread?


----------



## Chasy

ronalddheld said:


> Which VHPs recent or vintage?
> Did you search this thread?


Recent. Without +- terminals. I believe these are called Conquest V.H.P.

I searched some, cant figure out if VHP is aging well or not. In any case, when it comes specifically to seeing aging performance, nothing beats asking this question once in a while.


----------



## ronalddheld

The latest VHPs are too young to make that determination.


----------



## Chasy

For Citizen A010/A060 5 months was more than enough to see they age poorly.





ronalddheld said:


> The latest VHPs are too young to make that determination.


----------



## Barbababa

Chasy said:


> For Citizen A010/A060 5 months was more than enough to see they age poorly.


I have to say that I find your attempt at _making a myth_ out of ageing quartz crystals (wich comes down to your own poor experience with A010/A060 accuracy) a bit lame at this time. You should spend some time reading up on how the quartz crystals in quartz caliber are made and how they work instead.


----------



## Chasy

Barbababa said:


> I have to say that I find your attempt at _making a myth_ out of ageing quartz crystals (wich comes down to your own poor experience with A010/A060 accuracy) a bit lame at this time. You should spend some time reading up on how the quartz crystals in quartz caliber are made and how they work instead.


Obviously you have not read the forum. I am far from being alone in reporting poor aging performance of Citizen.

What I find curious moderator just liked your post, which brings no value to discussion, but is plain trolling+pesonal attack.


----------



## ETA2824-2

Chasy said:


> Obviously you have not read the forum. I am far from being alone in reporting poor aging performance of Citizen.
> 
> What I find curious moderator just liked your post, which brings no value to discussion, but is plain trolling+pesonal attack.


I'm still missing a minimal piece of evidence for your claims. 
BTW: This is a VHP-Thread.


----------



## Barbababa

Chasy said:


> Obviously you have not read the forum. I am far from being alone in reporting poor aging performance of Citizen.
> 
> What I find curious moderator just liked your post, which brings no value to discussion, but is plain trolling+pesonal attack.


It´s not a personal attack, it´s just that your personal experience with 2 watches will not help any one when there is no data to support it. If you want to state that it´s aged quartz that is the issue with your 2 watches, you need to provide proof there of. First you need to provide all data of how the watches have been worn and stored when not worn. Then you need to have records of temeratures and humidity (just like when making COSC test) and readings of the accuracy over time. And as long as you have not made tests to the actual quartz crystal, coils or circuit boards, chances are the poor accuracy comes from other factors than the quartz it self. That just comes from my own experience with quartz watches. Just drop it and move on, you will most likely never hear from a user about ageing quartz crystals, because they don´t have the tools needed to test them.
Enjoy your sunday and your watch (what ever you are wearing instead of The Citizen)


----------



## Toweruser

DaveM said:


> *After the hands have parked I wait for 5 minutes.*
> I have found that the watch ignores any crown-presses for a few minutes after the end of the hand-dance. Perhaps it is preparing for the synchronisation procedure. When I first tried doing battery-changes this ‘sleep time’ had me worried !
> 
> *I then long-press the crown.*
> After about 2 seconds the hands move to :-
> 
> Seconds hand at 11-hour mark = November
> Minutes hand at 8-hour mark = 8 year
> Hour hand after the 2-hour mark = 20 year
> The date stays at 12.
> The watch has remembered the pre-change date of 12th November 2028
> Normally I would then long-press the crown to resume normal operation, but because I had flash-set the wrong date I need to do a re-synchronisation.
> *I need to change the date back to 25th August 2022.
> 
> I short-press the crown and the seconds hand rocks.
> - By rotating the crown, I move it to 8
> After another short-press the date rocks.
> - By rotating the crown, I move it to 25
> After another short-press the minutes hand rocks.
> - By rotating the crown I set the time to 10 minutes past 2.*
> After another short-press of the seconds hand rocks, the procedure could be repeated.
> If I leave the watch alone for more than 1 minute the hands go back to 12. and the adjustments are lost.


Thanks a lot for this very useful tutorial! One day this stuff certainly will become essential for a VHP owner and should be part of the regular manual the watches are shipped with.

However, one question remains: Since the calendar is valid for 400 years (as claimed by Longines) how can the century be set?

I am asking for a great-great-grandson of mine.


----------



## DaveM

Toweruser said:


> Thanks a lot for this very useful tutorial! One day this stuff certainly will become essential for a VHP owner and should be part of the regular manual the watches are shipped with.


I hope that my tutorial will be useful to other 'VHP owners'.
I am now able to battery-change with some confidence

because I have taken a few risks when playing with my watches
because of the information posted by other users in this thread.
This thread is now very long, I am thinking it might be a good idea to edit the tutorial and post it in a new thread


Toweruser said:


> One question remains: Since the calendar is valid for 400 years (as claimed by Longines) how can the century be set?
> 
> I am asking for a great-great-grandson of mine.


Good thought !
I just tried to set a 22nd century date on the Samsung phone that I use to flash-set the GMT
- it would not accept anything later than 2036.
When I get bored I will set the watch to 31st December 2099 then look at its date the next day.


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator would consider making it a stickies.


----------



## MrDisco99

DaveM said:


> *I have done more battery-changes on my GMT & used the following procedure several times without problem.*
> Before the change I flash-set the date to 12th November 2028 to check that the re-synchronisation works.
> *I do not pull out the crown,* but it does not seem to matter whether you pull it out or not.
> 
> *I Remove the battery, and leave the watch without battery for 5 minutes.*
> I have found that the watch does not enter the correct ‘new battery’ procedure unless given a few minutes to detect that the battery has been removed.
> 
> *I then fit the new battery*
> The date wheel does a complicated dance to check its position, but it ends up where it started.
> The hands do a complicated dance to check their positions, then they all park at 12 o-clock
> 
> *After the hands have parked I wait for 5 minutes.*
> I have found that the watch ignores any crown-presses for a few minutes after the end of the hand-dance. Perhaps it is preparing for the synchronisation procedure. When I first tried doing battery-changes this ‘sleep time’ had me worried !
> 
> *I then long-press the crown.*
> After about 2 seconds the hands move to :-
> 
> Seconds hand at 11-hour mark = November
> Minutes hand at 8-hour mark = 8 year
> Hour hand after the 2-hour mark = 20 year
> The date stays at 12.
> The watch has remembered the pre-change date of 12th November 2028
> Normally I would then long-press the crown to resume normal operation, but because I had flash-set the wrong date I need to do a re-synchronisation.
> *I need to change the date back to 25th August 2022.
> 
> I short-press the crown and the seconds hand rocks.
> - By rotating the crown, I move it to 8
> After another short-press the date rocks.
> - By rotating the crown, I move it to 25
> After another short-press the minutes hand rocks.
> - By rotating the crown I set the time to 10 minutes past 2.*
> After another short-press of the seconds hand rocks, the procedure could be repeated.
> If I leave the watch alone for more than 1 minute the hands go back to 12. and the adjustments are lost.
> 
> *At the end of the procedure the watch is reading :-
> - 2 hour 10minutes and 8 seconds on the 25th *which indicates a date of 25th August 2022
> *I long-press the crown.
> After about 2 seconds :-
> *
> 
> *
> The seconds, minute and hour hands go to 12
> The date does not change.
> The watch starts to tick
> When I check the GMT hand, both time-zones are showing 12am
> *
> 
> I correct the time in the normal way and everything is back to normal.
> Before the change both time-zones had been set to British summer-time, one hour early of GMT.
> When I flash-set the local time to BST neither local nor travel-time changes.
> This shows that the time-zones have been remembered.
> 
> I have not done the ultimate test of leaving the watch without battery for a few days.
> The re-synchronisation described above would probably still work, but it is possible that other settings might be lost. One -unlikely but possible- problem is the loss of rate-calibration, which would be serious !
> I have only used this procedure on the GMT. Based on my experience and various posts I think that the 3-hander will work in the same way.
> 
> *The bottom line is that battery-change and resetting the month and year is quite easy.
> I do not know why Longines have been secretive about it !*


This is amazing info... thanks!

Has anyone tried it on a non-GMT model?


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## DaveM

MrDisco99 said:


> This is amazing info... thanks!
> 
> Has anyone tried it on a non-GMT model?


I have a 3-hander which I bought in 2017. I had to fit a new battery about a year ago.
- no problem but I did not record the details

*I just removed the battery (on 30th August 2022 ) and followed my change-procedure.
The watch did the same things as my GMT except that the 'synchronisation read-out' went to :-
- 3 hours 5 minutes and 40 seconds on the 30th*
On my GMT this would mean 30th August 2031 ( because of flash-set tests I am pretty sure of this )
*Very strange ! I will see if the watch gets the next leap-year (2024) right.*


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## DaveM

DaveM said:


> *the 'synchronisation read-out' went to :-
> - 3 hours 5 minutes and 40 seconds on the 30th*
> On my GMT this would mean 30th August 2031


*I could not resist checking my 3rd (bought 6 months ago ) VHP 3 hander.
Everything worked as expected !
the 'synchronisation read-out' went to :- 
- 2 hours 10 minutes and 40 seconds on the 30th*
This means 30th August 2022 - todays date

So It looks as if my first watch is set to the wrong leap-year !
My guess is that when I changed the battery:-

Hands at 12
Long press the crown
Hands went 10 minutes past 2
I tried to adjust the time
long-pressed the crown because the watch was not ticking

*I will leave it alone and see what happens in 2024 !*


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## MrDisco99

Sounds like the Longines VHP super secret calendar reset procedure has been found at last! Good to see that it's user accessible, works on all versions, and doesn't require special equipment.

If you're feeling extra bold, you could try setting it to Feb 28 2024 and see what happens. 

I don't have one yet or I might try it myself. This is making me feel better about getting one, though.


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## DaveM

MrDisco99 said:


> If you're feeling extra bold, you could try setting it to Feb 28 2024 and see what happens.


*Good idea !*
I am getting a lot of practice at changing batteries !
The trickiest part is handling the 2 little battery-screws. A poor design.
I get the impression that the Longines design-brief was to make battery-change difficult !

*I did another change on my 2017 VHP.*
As expected the ‘synchronisation read-out’ went to :-
- 3 hours 5 minutes and 40 seconds on the 30th (30 August 2031)
As previously reported I think this is because I botched the original battery change

*I changed the ‘synchronisation read-out’ to
- 2 hours 20 minutes and 10 seconds on the 28th (28 February 2024)*
- I re-started the watch and adjusted the time to 10pm

*2 hours later when the watch indicated midnight the date advanced to 29th (Leap Year day) !!
This makes me confident that :-*

* I had botched the original battery change*
*My interpretation of the ‘synchronisation read-out’ is correct for both GMT and 3-hand watches*
 I cycled the battery again and changed the ‘synchronisation read-out’ to
- 2 hours 10 minutes and 40 seconds on the 31st (31st August 2022, todays date)
- I re-started the watch and corrected the time.

*Job done ! I now have 3 correctly synchronised VHP watches.*


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## MrDisco99

Amazing

The community of Longines VHP aficionados (for what it is) owes a debt to your pioneering spirit.


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## Toweruser

@DaveM I did a bit of research regarding the (somewhat weird) missing century set feature. As it seems there is actually no issue at all because the next 400 years it simply doesn't matter in which century we are in.

My train of thought is as follows:

All month have the same length, the only exception is the February if we are in a leap year:

January (31 Days)
March (31 Days)
April (30 Days)
May (31 Days)
June (30 Days)
July (31 Days)
August (31 Days)
September (30 Days)
October (31 Days)
November (30 Days)
December (31 Days) 

The calendar Longines implemented is valid for 400 years. So I generated a list of all leap years for the next 400 years and it turned out there is no need to set the century.
The distribution of leap years in each century is exactly the same and so will the occurrence of the longer Februaries.

2004, 2008, 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024, 2028, 2032, 2036, 2040, 2044, 2048, 2052, 2056, 2060, 2064, 2068, 2072, 2076, 2080, 2084, 2088, 2092, 2096, 
2104, 2108, 2112, 2116, 2120, 2124, 2128, 2132, 2136, 2140, 2144, 2148, 2152, 2156, 2160, 2164, 2168, 2172, 2176, 2180, 2184, 2188, 2192, 2196, 
2204, 2208, 2212, 2216, 2220, 2224, 2228, 2232, 2236, 2240, 2244, 2248, 2252, 2256, 2260, 2264, 2268, 2272, 2276, 2280, 2284, 2288, 2292, 2296, 
2304, 2308, 2312, 2316, 2320, 2324, 2328, 2332, 2336, 2340, 2344, 2348, 2352, 2356, 2360, 2364, 2368, 2372, 2376, 2380, 2384, 2388, 2392, 2396

In conclusion the *28 February 2024* is as good as the *28 February 2124 *or the* 28 February 2224 *or the *28 February 2324*. All leap years fall into this pattern.
In every years I mentioned the day after the 28 Feb will be the 29 Feb.

So if my math is correct I am pretty sure you didn't miss anything!


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## SeveHands

Hi, apologies for replying to a year old post. Hopefully your watch isn’t a distant memory.. I’ve got one of these arriving tomorrow and have the same size wrist as you. I’m wondering, do you know how many links you removed? Thanks either way. 




Aspiniou said:


> My new Longines VHP 36 mm. Posting some pictures because I couldn't find almost any when I was researching this watch. My wrist size is somewhere between 6.5 and 6.7 in.
> 
> Hitting all markers, looking good and Sleek, surprisingly heavy for such a small water but I enjoy the feel. The bracelet does have some sharp sides but fortunately for me I was able to adjust it so that I the fed is good and this problem only applies when the brace of this in misadjusted.
> View attachment 16193041
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