# Are the upgrades to the movement or the anti reflective coating worth it for a Laco Augsburg?



## leapinglizard (Sep 19, 2020)

I'm looking at buying the blue Lace Augsburg in 39mm. I've been eyeing this watch for a while now, and I've recently noticed that there is 2 upgrades available on Laco's site. 

The first one is an upgrade from the standard Miyota 821A to a Miyota 8315 for 70 USD. I could not find much information about this movement online, but it seems like it has a slightly longer power reserve (about 60 hours) and the same beat rate. It would be nice to have an ETA upgrade option, for those who want to pay a bit more. 

The second upgrade is AR coating on both sides of the sapphire crystal, for 60 USD. This is the one I was considering over the upgraded movement. Is this worth it? 

Any feedback would be appreciated.


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## jessemeyer (Sep 29, 2020)

I've been eyeing the blue Augsburg 39 too, with the only thing holding me back being the 821a movement, which doesn't hack. I haven't checked Laco's site recently, but that'd be great if they offered the Augsburg with the 8315 movement, because it is a hacking movement. That's kinda crap if they're gonna charge you $70 more for it though. I think it should be standard on a $400 watch etc.


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## SkullLeader (Sep 25, 2019)

jessemeyer said:


> I've been eyeing the blue Augsburg 39 too, with the only thing holding me back being the 821a movement, which doesn't hack. I haven't checked Laco's site recently, but that'd be great if they offered the Augsburg with the 8315 movement, because it is a hacking movement. That's kinda crap if they're gonna charge you $70 more for it though. I think it should be standard on a $400 watch etc.


I believe the version of the 821a that they use now does in fact hack. It certainly does on the Aachen Taupe 39mm that I purchased a few months ago.


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## leapinglizard (Sep 19, 2020)

jessemeyer said:


> I've been eyeing the blue Augsburg 39 too, with the only thing holding me back being the 821a movement, which doesn't hack. I haven't checked Laco's site recently, but that'd be great if they offered the Augsburg with the 8315 movement, because it is a hacking movement. That's kinda crap if they're gonna charge you $70 more for it though. I think it should be standard on a $400 watch etc.


Agreed with SkullLeader, I believe the new 821a does hack now. And it should say on their site as well. That was also a big consideration when I was looking at buying it awhile back!


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## jessemeyer (Sep 29, 2020)

That's good to hear. I've always read conflicting reports re: the 821a, in that it wasn't a hacking movement, but was going to updated soon. Most sellers won't list which particular version of the movement is in the watches that the're selling (or don't know themselves). For example, the Augsburgs currently on sale at Long Island Watch & via Teddy Baldesarre's website don't contain hacking movements, but Teddy said in his review that they were going to update the movement in the near future. All very confusing, which is why I've held off pulling the trigger on buying one until I'm confident that the watch I'll buy will have hacking. I'd pay extra if they'd just throw a 9015 in there and call it done LOL


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## Buramu (Oct 19, 2015)

That 8315 movement caught my eye the other day. I don’t recall seeing that before. Interesting that they offer that instead of going for the more modern 90xx movements.

As much as I love a good 8xxx (I’m not overly hung up on hacking) it’s not a particularly sophisticated movement for a brand like Laco.


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## Jiayaw (Sep 2, 2020)

I got my Laco 39mm Ausburg Taupe limited edition that has the 821a and I can confirm that it hacks.

Surprisingly, the movement is a lot quieter that my other watches that have the miyota 8 series movement, possibly because of the high built quality from laco helping with isolating the sound.

Amazing accuracy over course of 5 days though precision is a bit all over the place as it goes faster and slower. Regardless, it is still amazing for an entry movement to be getting an average of -0.8sec/day! So you can really see Laco's effort in regulating even these entry movements. Considering I paid $285 USD plus tax for the watch, I'm really happy.

FYI the watch wears really large, I can't imagine what it'll be like to wear the 42mm model as the 39mm I got wears larger than my 40mm Timex Marlin and even feels larger than my Seiko baby snowflake


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## BundyBear (Mar 3, 2018)

leapinglizard said:


> I'm looking at buying the blue Lace Augsburg in 39mm. I've been eyeing this watch for a while now, and I've recently noticed that there is 2 upgrades available on Laco's site.
> 
> The first one is an upgrade from the standard Miyota 821A to a Miyota 8315 for 70 USD. I could not find much information about this movement online, but it seems like it has a slightly longer power reserve (about 60 hours) and the same beat rate. It would be nice to have an ETA upgrade option, for those who want to pay a bit more.
> 
> ...


Hi @leapinglizard - in my opinion, the Miyota 821A is good enough as I purchased on recently and it has worked like a dream. Hacking movement as all the other posts above said. Just make sure you don't buy a older stock which still has the non- hacking movement but any purchases direct from Laco would be okay. Mine has performed well, to -6 seconds per day and as good as any ETA movement.

Just a point of reference for you because you mentioned that you would like to an ETA. If that is what you desire, then you have to look at the Heidelberg or Speyer which is from the "Original" range and not the "Basic" range which the Augsburg is.

As for the AR, I got them on mine and I like it but I am fine either which way as reflections don't really bother me.

Good luck on your search and we look forward to welcoming another new Laco owner here. 😁


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## leapinglizard (Sep 19, 2020)

Jiayaw said:


> I got my Laco 39mm Ausburg Taupe limited edition that has the 821a and I can confirm that it hacks.
> 
> Surprisingly, the movement is a lot quieter that my other watches that have the miyota 8 series movement, possibly because of the high built quality from laco helping with isolating the sound.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the pics @Jiayaw !



Dogbert_is_fat said:


> Hi @leapinglizard - in my opinion, the Miyota 821A is good enough as I purchased on recently and it has worked like a dream. Hacking movement as all the other posts above said. Just make sure you don't buy a older stock which still has the non- hacking movement but any purchases direct from Laco would be okay. Mine has performed well, to -6 seconds per day and as good as any ETA movement.
> 
> Just a point of reference for you because you mentioned that you would like to an ETA. If that is what you desire, then you have to look at the Heidelberg or Speyer which is from the "Original" range and not the "Basic" range which the Augsburg is.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice @Dogbert_is_fat ! Unfortunately, Laco only offers the blue dialled 39mm variant in the basic line, so that's what I'm gunning for! I will definitely share pics with this forum when I get it!


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## K42 (Jun 22, 2009)

I have an Augsburg and Aachen with the old stock 821A that does not hack and has no AR on the crystal. I've had non-hacking before and just learned to live with it, especially since I don't wear them everyday. If I were to pick one feature, I'd go with the AR since it doesn't seem like the upgraded Miyota is a top shelf movement. However, I have no real insight to Miyota movements. All that said, I've been very happy with the quality and performance (for the price) on both of my standard old stock.


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## davidinjackson (May 10, 2020)

jessemeyer said:


> That's good to hear. I've always read conflicting reports re: the 821a, in that it wasn't a hacking movement, but was going to updated soon. Most sellers won't list which particular version of the movement is in the watches that the're selling (or don't know themselves). For example, the Augsburgs currently on sale at Long Island Watch & via Teddy Baldesarre's website don't contain hacking movements, but Teddy said in his review that they were going to update the movement in the near future. All very confusing, which is why I've held off pulling the trigger on buying one until I'm confident that the watch I'll buy will have hacking. I'd pay extra if they'd just throw a 9015 in there and call it done LOL


Agree. I confirmed with Long Island Watch yesterday.


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

I went through the same decision with my Augsburg and later Aachen. The non-hacking earlier version of the Miyota 821A can actually be hacked (in the same way as the SKX007/9 or Omega Speedmaster) with slight back-pressure on the crown. I found that this only works though when the movement is close to be totally unwound.

The anti-reflective coating of the sapphire crystal was more of an issue for me than the movement. Is it worth it if you can find a watchmaker to do such a replacement? I think so!

Eventually, I sold both of my Basic series Lacos and upgraded to an Original series watch, a Leipzig Blaue Stunde. I got a very good deal through the For Sale section of Watchuseek from a trusted seller and I am extremely pleased with the watch. The difference between the flat crystal of the Basic series watches and the slightly domed sapphire crystal with AR coating is significant -- at least to me. It is something that I happen to be very sensitive to. A couple of other watches that I've owned in the past, notably the Hamilton Khaki Automatic and the Bulova Moon Watch (now called the Lunar Pilot) had so many reflections from the non-coated sapphire crystals that it made telling the time at a glance a real chore. With my Leipzig (I happen to be wearing it as I type this), it has made a great watch a sheer delight to own.


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## davidinjackson (May 10, 2020)

Lee_K said:


> I went through the same decision with my Augsburg and later Aachen. The non-hacking earlier version of the Miyota 821A can actually be hacked (in the same way as the SKX007/9 or Omega Speedmaster) with slight back-pressure on the crown. I found that this only works though when the movement is close to be totally unwound.
> 
> The anti-reflective coating of the sapphire crystal was more of an issue for me than the movement. Is it worth it if you can find a watchmaker to do such a replacement? I think so!
> 
> ...


Would like to hear more about the reflective issue. I have a Steinhart OVM with a domed sapphire crystal and AR coating. I love the watch but find it almost makes the dial harder to view clearly in indoor settings (it works perfectly outside on a sunny day). Another watch I have with a flat sapphire crystal and no AR seems more legible in more conditions. I am interested in the Augsburg for its clear legibility and would like to know your experience. Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

A domed crystal will pull light in from many angles and therefore is subject to reflections. A flat crystal will only pull in reflections that are coming from the oblique angle to the viewer. By nature, flat crystals are less reflective than domed. This can be mitigated somewhat by adding a layer or two of anti-reflective coating. By precisely coating the surface of a sapphire with a very specific depth of magnesium fluoride (usually, but there are other materials used), the reflections can be canceled out and therefore the transmission of the light to the dial is less impeded.

Here's a photo of two watches, neither which have any anti-reflective coating on their crystals.










On the Bulova Moon Watch (now the Lunar Pilot), there is an overall grayish haze caused by reflections from the window on the left of this photo. It has a flat crystal. On the Seiko Tuna, the reflective light is harsher but more localized. I have found with slightly domed crystals like seen on the Steinhart OVM (I've owned two of them in the past), the reflections are more like the Tuna than the Moon Watch. They are less intense because of the anti-reflective coating that Steinhart applies underneath the inner surface.










Now, Damasko, Breitling, Omega, and many other manufacturers provide multiple layers of anti-reflective coating that can make the reflections nearly invisible. Here's a DA42 outside on a sunny day under a tree. It makes the crystal nearly invisible. This is a flat sapphire crystal.










Both of these Omegas are shot on the same desk as the watches above. Both have layers of anti-reflective material on top and underneath the crystals. Both have domed sapphire crystals.










Finally, the Augsburg I owned had a flat sapphire crystal and no anti-reflective coating. Note the same grayish haze as seen on the Bulova above.










To summarize: anti-reflective coatings help reduce reflections greatly. Some of the best make the crystal seem invisible, no matter whether on a flat or a domed crystal.


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## K42 (Jun 22, 2009)

On my Augsburg and Aachen, the reflection is really focused because the crystal is flat. It’s like a direct spotlight. 

I have a Hardlex on my Seiko that does not have AR. The reflection on that isn’t as sharp because it gets dispersed by the dome. 

With my 2 Laco, I had no problem reading the time throughout the day. But when I spend some time admiring the watch, the reflection is annoying.


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## CrownJewels (Sep 20, 2020)

I received my Laco Augsberg Blaue Stunde 42mm from the Laco AD in Ontario this week. No upgrades - stock with the Miyota 821a movement. Debated a bunch about going higher-end...even to the Munster for about 2.5x the price. So glad I went this way. I think based on what I read that the stock Miyota can have a fair bit of variability in accuracy. But the AD checked the movement on this one for me and assured me it was a particularly good/accurate one...he was dead on. Since I got it (3 days), the watch is -4spd, which is extraordinary and way above spec for this movement...better than the ETA average specs for the Munster!!! Thrilled with the value:


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## fuentecigar (Oct 1, 2019)

I have sort of been following this thread. I'm wondering if someone more knowledgeable than I am; can shed some light on what the movement upgrade accomplishes. I would think it would be something very tangible for $70. But, again; I don't know. Unless it is a great deal more accurate, perhaps the money for the movement and coating is better put towards the Munster. I'm interested in any opinions.


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## fuentecigar (Oct 1, 2019)

I think I found what the deal is on the upgrade. It is rated at the same accuracy -10 ~ +20/ per day. But, you get blued screws and a larger power reserve (from Laco's website).


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## Buramu (Oct 19, 2015)

fuentecigar said:


> I think I found what the deal is on the upgrade. It is rated at the same accuracy -10 ~ +20/ per day. But, you get blued screws and a larger power reserve (from Laco's website).


It upgrades the power reserve to 60 hours.


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## fuentecigar (Oct 1, 2019)

Buramu said:


> It upgrades the power reserve to 60 hours.


Thanks.


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## davidinjackson (May 10, 2020)

Thanks very much for your response here.



Lee_K said:


> A domed crystal will pull light in from many angles and therefore is subject to reflections. A flat crystal will only pull in reflections that are coming from the oblique angle to the viewer. By nature, flat crystals are less reflective than domed. This can be mitigated somewhat by adding a layer or two of anti-reflective coating. By precisely coating the surface of a sapphire with a very specific depth of magnesium fluoride (usually, but there are other materials used), the reflections can be canceled out and therefore the transmission of the light to the dial is less impeded.
> 
> Here's a photo of two watches, neither which have any anti-reflective coating on their crystals.
> 
> ...


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## Andfit91 (Oct 26, 2020)

I've been contemplating the Augsburg Taupe 39mm...truthfully I don't like the 821a being there. The movement has a date wheel, no? So the crown has a ghost date position- big turn off for me. Does anyone know if they changed this?


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

There is no ghost date position on the 821A in the Aachen/Augsburg.

Edit: the current hacking 821A movements do indeed have a ghost date position. Thank you to Laco for the clarification.


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## Andfit91 (Oct 26, 2020)

Lee_K said:


> There is no ghost date position on the 821A in the Aachen/Augsburg.


How is this possible? I'd be thrilled if this is the case, but I own a Laco Daintree which also uses the Laco 21 (aka 821A) and also hacks. Yes it has a date window, and the crown has a position to change the date, but wouldn't all 821As have that position? What did they do differently for the Aachen/Augsburg?


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't know, but Laco's representative follows most of these threads and could possibly weigh in here. I've had two Aachens and one Augsburg and none of them have a ghost date position. In = winding, out = time set (without hacking, mine are the older variants).

Perhaps the newer hacking movements do have a date function position?


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## Laco Pforzheim (Oct 4, 2010)

It's correct that the Laco21 movement (based on the Miyota 821A) has a ghost date position.There are three crown positions and the second has no function if the watch has no date window. As we currently use the same movement for the models with date and the models without, all those watches have the seocnd crown position. At the moment unfortunately we also don't have the chance to disable this function. If someone read about this, it was for the "original" pilot watches with Swiss ETA movement. On those models we disable the second crown position if there is no visible date on the watch.


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## Lee_K (Jan 20, 2016)

Thank you for the clarification.


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## davidinjackson (May 10, 2020)

I prefer no date and am not bothered by a "ghost" position.


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## mrk (May 13, 2013)

I ordered the Aachen 39mm with both the AR coated sapphire option and the 8315 movement. Really looking forward to it as been eyeing up a pilot watch from either Laco or Stowa (Flieger Classic 36). The fact that with both options the Aachen was over half the price of the Stowa sealed the deal for me. Yeah the Stowa has an elabore grade ETA movement but having seen pics of the Laco31 8315, it too looks quite nice with visible jewels, blued screws and the Laco rotor.

Accuracy I am confident should be decent. Anything within 10s is fine by me. I won't be wearing the watch every day so will be syncing every other day of wear anyway. I have had Miyota 9039 movements in my other watches too and they have all been exceptionally accurate although the rotor is loud - Which I quite like!

Photos to follow and thoughts.

Btw I have ordered a Joseph Bonnie Khaki coloured tropic strap as am not a fan of any leather strap. I think this will go well with the Aachen, vintage style strap on such a watch.


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## treyzinsser (Jan 23, 2021)

@mrk - did you receive your Aachen yet? Any updates on your satisfaction with the Laco31/8315 or AR upgrades? Does the 8315 have a ghost date position also? Photos and/or thoughts would be much appreciated!

Sorry for so many questions. I am also considering these two upgrades, but on the Augsburg Blaue Stunde 39...

Thank you!



mrk said:


> I ordered the Aachen 39mm with both the AR coated sapphire option and the 8315 movement. Really looking forward to it as been eyeing up a pilot watch from either Laco or Stowa (Flieger Classic 36). The fact that with both options the Aachen was over half the price of the Stowa sealed the deal for me. Yeah the Stowa has an elabore grade ETA movement but having seen pics of the Laco31 8315, it too looks quite nice with visible jewels, blued screws and the Laco rotor.
> 
> Accuracy I am confident should be decent. Anything within 10s is fine by me. I won't be wearing the watch every day so will be syncing every other day of wear anyway. I have had Miyota 9039 movements in my other watches too and they have all been exceptionally accurate although the rotor is loud - Which I quite like!
> 
> ...


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## mrk (May 13, 2013)

treyzinsser said:


> @mrk - did you receive your Aachen yet? Any updates on your satisfaction with the Laco31/8315 or AR upgrades? Does the 8315 have a ghost date position also? Photos and/or thoughts would be much appreciated!
> 
> Sorry for so many questions. I am also considering these two upgrades, but on the Augsburg Blaue Stunde 39...
> 
> Thank you!


Hi, it did indeed arrive and I have posted a review of it over here: The Aachen with Laco31 movement and AR sapphire upgrades... (video on page 2)

In short though it's superb, the AR I really like and the movement is great too. My accuracy is around +6s a day and yes there is a ghost position for the date but I don't consider this an issue however.


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## treyzinsser (Jan 23, 2021)

mrk said:


> Hi, it did indeed arrive and I have posted a review of it over here: The Aachen with Laco31 movement and AR sapphire upgrades... (video on page 2)
> 
> In short though it's superb, the AR I really like and the movement is great too. My accuracy is around +6s a day and yes there is a ghost position for the date but I don't consider this an issue however.


Perfect, thank you! I'll check it out.


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