# Panerai vs JLC



## gargir78

I am looking to spend under 8k

The watches I am looking at are 
1) Pam 321
2) Pam 320
3) Pam 312

JLC 
1) master calendar
2) master dual time
3) master compressor gmt

I need help making a decision. I am looking for company history, and a watch that will retain value. As this will probably be my big watch purchase


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## Janne

You should also think of what you like.


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## aznseank

Here is my two cents to your inquiry. If retaining the watch value is more important for you, then you should go with a Panerai. If company history is more important, then go for the JLC dual time. But in all honesty, for 8k, get a used Rolex Submariner(ceramic model) . It retains, if not increases, its value over many years. 

Pros of owning a Panerai:
-it will be very easy to liquadate this watch within the next 5 years.. 100% guaranteed
-it is popular among the younger crowd (mid 20s to mid 30s)

Cons of owning a Panerai:
-it might not do so well in 10years
-only pimps, ..... directors, professional atheletes should wear this abomination 

Pros of owning a JLC
-peerless craftmanship and in house complication
-long tradition and history
-excellent finish/ a respectable watch in the eyes of any watch aficionado
-gives you class

cons of owning a JLC
-does not retain its value so well
-unnoticed by most people

From your post, I think retaining value is the biggest condition for your next purchase. In this case, I would hands down recommend a Rolex Sub. However, if you want both, then you might be able to obtain a used Patek Calatrava for a bit more. Obviously, with the Calatrava, you get both value retention and history!


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## Guarionex

JLC. Way too many Panerai watches in the city.


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## bar2020

I would go for a pre-owned JLC. If you get a decent deal, you should not take a big hit if you try to sell it. JLC is a great company, a true "Manufacture"


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## Donut

aznseank said:


> Cons of owning a Panerai:
> -only pimps, ..... directors, professional atheletes should wear this abomination


and US Presidents...


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## Janne

Wonder what he is thinking.... See the smile?

I am not a pimp, director and def. not a pro athlete, but my PAM is my favourite Fashion watch.

But JLC are better.


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## mikeyc

It's not even close for me, JLC fer sure.


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## amine

They aren't in the same league at all, if you post on this forum then the choice is obvious...JLC all the way.


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## Spinning

They are both very different styles there. 
For me, JLC - for sure!


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## Nishant

JLC .. Left right and center


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## jb68902

JLC. There is simply no debate.

I'm not sure about the PAMs you have listed, however, many of them do not even have in-house movements. They have little horological value as compared to JLC and some of its more iconic watches like the Reverso. JLC is one of the leaders in the industry. They are right up there with Patek.

Spending 8k on a JLC will always be a better decision. They are better watches, better made, and infinitely more tasteful.


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## gargir78

Does JLC hold their value, because allot of people say they don't


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## flyingpicasso

gargir78 said:


> Does JLC hold their value, because allot of people say they don't


Very, very few watches hold their value and even fewer increase in value. I'd venture to say that the watches you are considering will all decrease in value. If you are looking to sell later for no loss or a possible gain you should save your money. Really. If you are looking to keep the watch get the one you like. Everyone doesn't have to approve of it for it to be the right choice for you. I would personally pick a JLC, but I'm not going to be wearing it. Good luck.


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## Mr.Kane

Is this serious... Jlc my friend. Ur welcome


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## Aliisloo

Donut said:


> and US Presidents...


I would say, like some other aspect of his life, the great man has mend his ways.









Go for JLC!

Ali


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## Jebhut

I like FlyingPicasso's answer...(just got carried away on answering your other post regarding JLC resale, but had to respond here too)...it's a JLC crowd- unbiased polling? Always get a kick out of opinions expressed on forums with such certainty. Such black & white timepiece expertise to base your decision on - yet, ironically never knew watch lovers in the real world (not on forums) so opinionated on 'higher end' watches...

IMHO, never make your watch buying decision on other people's opinions, _especially_ on forums! Most just sell a brand because they own it...*buy what makes your heart stop for a second when it goes on your wrist. *Otherwise, what's the point??

FWIW, you're comparing 40mm dress JLc's, one diver JLC, and 3 44mm Panerais?? Totally different watches? Have you even tried them on? Will you be wearing it daily (sounded like it?) Do you wear busines attire? If so, maybe the 40mm JLC's are more appropriate/classic. That said, the PAM 321 is the hottest of the 6 IMO. In house movement. Fine watch - nicer watch than most people could ever dream of owning. You want compliments from women (Panerai) or old men (40mm JLC)  Kidding...kind of...

Panerai's resale values exceeded most any brand out there for y_ears! _ Pretty cool history of a small boutique selling small limited numbers to the Italian Navy til Richemont took them over, and became one of the best selling watches in the industry, selling through entire inventories yearly, unlike any other brand - ever. Never saw a brand phenom like they were at their peak when you literally had waiting lists on many of their models, some being bought at premiums!? People built Panerai collections - 6 Panerais, tens of thousands of dollars..rarely known anyone to have more than 1 or 2 JLC's. Rarely got a compliment on a watch til I got a Panerai.

I've loved my JLC's, but what exactly is the tremendous benefit of being a manufacture? Not accuracy. Not dependablility. I was into all that...I get it...but only important to YOU! Nobody else really cares. Especially if you're not on a forum. It's a watch. All the watchmaking prowess and in house movements don't mean diddly if you never flipped over it (and yes, appreciated the craftsmanship).

Own both brands. Love them both. Most watch lovers I knew never set foot on a forum! And unless you work on Wall St, (even then), most just own the well known status symbol brands in the movies or in magazines or on billboards. Different kinds of watch buyers buy for different reasons...


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## Dancing Fire

JLC all the way!! ...at least 2 levels above Panerais.


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## callfriday

I agree with you wholeheartedly Jebhut. I do not think anyone could dispute anything that you have said here. If I was to add my comments here, for what it is worth, I would say that as a daily homage watch wearer, Especially for Panerai watches, it is the same difference as who drives a 1990's Bently and a Rolls Royce?

We all know that the real snot-nosed, conservative rich, those who perhaps have lineage, position and class always own a Rolls, but the more Entreprenure types, those who were more play boys and exciting types, always had Bentleys. 

I would say, that a JLC watch is akin to the Rolls Royce and a Panerai seems to have a more practical Bently prestige about it which quickly gets peoples admiration and attention. This is something a JLC watch just cannot do. However, in a dark alley, you will most likely get mugged for your Panerai!

So, the saying is, "if a thief has got good taste, then you must have"!

A Panerai will get you envy. Women seem to know a lot about Panerai's. I hope you are not married!


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## tech_controller

having owned plenty of PAMS....the JLC is on a different level than panerai. Panerai's new in-house movements need work and their ETA sourced movement watches are over priced. JLC by a mile...

But in the end...get the watch that SPEAKs to you and the one that brings a smile to YOUR face


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## bazza.

You could always try and found a Panerai 190 then you get the best of 
of both worlds with a 8 day JLC movement and Panerai case 

I buy and sell a lot of watches and the only watch I've really lost any 
money on was a JLC ,great watches but if your not going to keep it for 
a very long time forget it IMHO


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## Dancing Fire

Jebhut said:


> I've loved my JLC's, *but what exactly is the tremendous benefit of being a manufacture?* Not accuracy. Not dependablility. I was into all that...I get it...but only important to YOU! Nobody else really cares. Especially if you're not on a forum. It's a watch. All the watchmaking prowess and in house movements don't mean diddly if you never flipped over it (and yes, appreciated the craftsmanship).


easy answer...b/c your not getting a remodified movement.


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## rooneb

for someone who owns both they are like chalk and cheese . go with what your heart says. good luck or whatever you choose


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## Donut

bazza. said:


> You could always try and found a Panerai 190 then you get the best of
> of both worlds with a 8 day JLC movement and Panerai case


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## rob-s

I would also recommend to buy the watch you like, not the one that is more likely to keep or even rise in value.

Good alternatives in your price class:
-Rolex Submariner Ceramic (used)
-Blancpain Fifty fathoms (used)


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## wixonjewelers

That's such a difficult question. You'll definitely get more recognition out of your PAM but JLC makes some fantastic watches too... it just depends what you're looking for.

Good luck and let us know what you choose!


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## Ferrari 312T

When weighing up what to get between a JLC Master Compressor Chrono and a PAM 312 I decided on the JLC. I thought the Panerai would be a bit plain and too big. The JLC is a classy piece, has great finish and a great movement. However the retail in AUD was $12,000!! I picked a LNIB example that had just been serviced for less than half that. The JLC's are great classy watches at the higher end of the watch tree which means that a lot of people do not know them and they do not retain their value. I don't care as it is a nice piece and I won't sell it but keep it in mind. 

Guess what my next watch is going to be. Yes the PAM 312. Very different than the JLC which is good as I don't want all my pieces to be the same. It has a in house movement, sandwich dial, 1950's case and has real presence. It will be a great casual watch which is what I want. I bought it used in LNIB condition so I did not pay the over inflated retail price. I don't know if I will keep it forever but I think that if you are a WIS with an interest in more than one brand you have to try a PAM at least onece.


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## telackey

JLC hands down.

That said, if this is going to be your big purchase before sitting pretty for a while, also consider VC, AP, Breguet, or Glashutte Original. With a little patience, you can find a gently used Overseas, Royal Oak, around $8k and a Type XX/XXI* for less. There are several impressive Glashutte watches in that range brand new, and some well under like the calibre 100 Navigators.

I mainly mentioned sport watches because that seemed to be more in keeping with your options. For dressier watches, JLC has a lot of value. I think they would be hard to beat without spending a lot more. Perhaps a GO PanoReserve could do it...

Anyway, main thing is don't rush it. I thought I wanted a bunch of things along the way before I finally bought my big watch, but I couldn't be happier with it and am thankful I didn't buy too soon.

* The Type XXI Transatlantique Flyback would be near the top of my list in this range. Breguet as a manufacture is near the tippy top, and the watch itself has a beautiful style.

*EDIT* Also, as to retaining value over time, don't just look at brand there but also style. A more classic style is likely to both wear better and retain value over time than something way out there in styling. Some PAMs and JLCs are timeless classics and some aren't...


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## omega1234

I personally dislike Panerai and love JLC, so I'd say JLC


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## GoodEyeSniper

Jebhut said:


> IMHO, never make your watch buying decision on other people's opinions, _especially_ on forums! Most just sell a brand because they own it...*buy what makes your heart stop for a second when it goes on your wrist. *Otherwise, what's the point??


I would strongly advise against this, and recommend to see a cardiologist if this is a common occurrence, as there may be underlying health concerns there...


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## Pilgrim7

As a newbie to this forum I was convinced that a Panerai would be my next purchase, but after only my second day and an hour or so of browsing, it has become patently clear that I should probably get a JLC (or at least look into it more).

But, my Lord, that radiomir 8 days above looks unbelievable!!!

Confused.com!!!


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## gouverneur

Panerai strikes me as the kind of watch made for people who wear Domenico Vacca suits and drive Maseratis. It's flashy, but if you want permanent style, buy something more understated. The 8 day Panerai is actually quite an elegant design, but the 321, in my opinion, looks like a blown up child's watch.

Plus, who wants to get something popularized by Sylvester Stallone?


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## usc1

Donut said:


> and US Presidents...


No, Clinton was mentioned. He would be in the pimp category.

To answer your question, JLC. I had two Panerai models 111 and the 104. I found the watches uncomfortable to wear on my 7.5" wrist. I took ownership twice because I decided to give it another try. I am now staying away from them.


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## eliz

a no brainer question. JLC for me without a doubt. watch oozes class.
as someone else mentioned, it's like comparing a Bentley to a Rolls-Royce. so take your pick


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## Kittysafe

I have to say I like the look of the Panerai more than the JLC.
When I look at the JLC I don't think, this watch is worth $10,000.


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## Nishant

Kittysafe said:


> I have to say I like the look of the Panerai more than the JLC.
> When I look at the JLC I don't think, this watch is worth $10,000.


U need to see an ophthalmologist


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## gouverneur

That's fine, JLC's style is understated. If you want a watch that looks as if the strap was made out of refashioned $100 dollar bills and a case made out of melted-down Bentley hubcaps, go with Panerai. It's a loud watch.



Kittysafe said:


> I have to say I like the look of the Panerai more than the JLC.
> When I look at the JLC I don't think, this watch is worth $10,000.


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## JP Chestnut

eliz said:


> a no brainer question. JLC for me without a doubt. watch oozes class.
> as someone else mentioned, it's like comparing a Bentley to a Rolls-Royce. so take your pick


Actually, it's probably more like comparing a high end BMW with an entry-level Jaguar with a Ford designed engine.


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## Jebhut

gouverneur said:


> That's fine, JLC's style is understated. If you want a watch that looks as if the strap was made out of refashioned $100 dollar bills and a case made out of melted-down Bentley hubcaps, go with Panerai. It's a loud watch.


These are exactly the type of (repeated - once wasn't enough)  opinionated negative forum statements that show why you should never listen to forums for your buying decision. But then, never known true watch connoissuers to behave like that, with so much uncalled for hostility towards what has become one of the biggest success stories in the industry...literally couldn't buy them 5 years ago they were in such demand - NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN THE INDUSTRY!!

I own both...my opinion's unbiased. Both top quality. Never got a compliment on my 3 JLC's...and often, JLC resale sucks _compared_ to Panerai's. Numerous (yes, from people who know/have class) compliments/conversations started on my Panerais.

Most of the watch lovers I've known over 25 years never set foot on a forum - too busy to 'show off'...and most buy expensive watches as part of their lifestyle/business 'statement' - figure out why you're buying one - to be noticed...duh?! Why buy a watch NOT to be noticed? By anyone? Ever? Really?!

Go to a store, and buy which one you love! If you buy what people on forums tell you to buy (JLC makes their own movements...partly why I bought mine, but so...big deal...who cares if YOU don't LOVE your watch!), you'll likely fall out of love with it, and wind up like all the other flippers trying to impress everybody else with their new acquisition! Nothing wrong with a Longines or classic B&M (just an _example_ guys!!) IF you love it (it will show you appreciate watchmaking vs marketing - unlike the top 'over advertised' mass produced brands at twice the price or more). JMHO of course!!

In the end, 95% of the 'real' world won't know the difference...or care what brand watch you wear...especially if you 'wear it well'!


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## gouverneur

Haha, I'll admit I have very strong feelings against Panerai, but mostly it's just a personal aesthetic preference. I was a little more caustic than I should have been. Here are a few points:

1. It goes without saying that people should buy a watch that speaks to their taste. Panerai is big and bold, while JLC is more subtle. I was mainly reacting to the poster who said that when he sees a JLC, he doesn't think he's looking at a $10,000 watch. That's, in some ways, exactly the point -- the watches speak for themselves in terms of quality, but it's not a brand that has widespread cultural awareness (at least in the U.S.), and the watches haven't been oversized or blinged out in an attempt to inform everyone, even those who aren't in the know, that you are wearing an exquisite piece of work. I think Panerai makes this a little more obvious, but there is nothing wrong with this -- I compared it to driving a Maserati earlier, and obviously I'm not saying that a Maserati is a car that isn't worth owning.

2. I also disagree pretty strongly with the emphasis on immediate re-sale value when people ask for help choosing between two watches. Concededly, the poster asked which watch would hold value -- but let's be honest, none of us really have any idea. When people talk about re-sale value, they mean something like, "If you got tired of this watch in 6 months, would you be able to flip it for a small loss?"

I guess there's a prevailing culture of flipping watches here on the forums, but when you get a watch that costs as much as a Panerai or a JLC, it strikes me that you should be expecting to keep the thing and love it for the next decade, if not the rest of your life. If you're thinking long term, then you should realize a few things. First, Panerai's brand has been on the rise in the last 10 years or so, but there's no guarantee that it'll be the more value-holding watch a decade down the line. Second, _no one_ has the capacity to predict these things, aside from a few very likely propositions, like Rolex holding its value.

So let's have peace! The 8-day PAM is a gorgeous watch, a JLC Master Grande Ultra Thin is a gorgeous watch, the original poster really won't regret it either way.



Jebhut said:


> These are exactly the type of (repeated - once wasn't enough)  opinionated negative forum statements that show why you should never listen to forums for your buying decision. But then, never known true watch connoissuers to behave like that, with so much uncalled for hostility towards what has become one of the biggest success stories in the industry...literally couldn't buy them 5 years ago they were in such demand - NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN THE INDUSTRY!!
> 
> I own both...my opinion's unbiased. Both top quality. Never got a compliment on my 3 JLC's...and often, JLC resale sucks _compared_ to Panerai's. Numerous (yes, from people who know/have class) compliments/conversations started on my Panerais.
> 
> Most of the watch lovers I've known over 25 years never set foot on a forum - too busy to 'show off'...and most buy expensive watches as part of their lifestyle/business 'statement' - figure out why you're buying one - to be noticed...duh?! Why buy a watch NOT to be noticed? By anyone? Ever? Really?!
> 
> Go to a store, and buy which one you love! If you buy what people on forums tell you to buy (JLC makes their own movements...partly why I bought mine, but so...big deal...who cares if YOU don't LOVE your watch!), you'll likely fall out of love with it, and wind up like all the other flippers trying to impress everybody else with their new acquisition! Nothing wrong with a Longines or classic B&M (just an _example_ guys!!) IF you love it (it will show you appreciate watchmaking vs marketing - unlike the top 'over advertised' mass produced brands at twice the price or more). JMHO of course!!
> 
> In the end, 95% of the 'real' world won't know the difference...or care what brand watch you wear...especially if you 'wear it well'!


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## mikeyc

aznseank said:


> -only pimps, ..... directors, professional atheletes should wear this abomination


LOL!!!!
I agree with the rest of your post also BTW.


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## georges zaslavsky

JLC is synonym of history and is a prestige watchmaker. Panerai watches appeared lately on the market but are more fashion watches than something else. I also don't like the panerai crown system.JLC is class and soberty. Panerai is definitely screaming "have you seen me" and is of arrogant design. When I see women wearing +44mm of diameter panerai on their wrists I can't stop laughing.


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## Jebhut

georges zaslavsky said:


> JLC is synonym of history and is a prestige watchmaker. Panerai watches appeared lately on the market but are more fashion watches than something else. I also don't like the panerai crown system.JLC is class and soberty. Panerai is definitely screaming "have you seen me" and is of arrogant design. When I see women wearing +44mm of diameter panerai on their wrists I can't stop laughing.


Is that what its like in France now?  NEVER seen a woman wearing a Panerai in the USA...guess France is different. Also, the whole beauty of Panerai was its simplistic 'understated' dial?? You want 'look at me', get a Rolex or big Breitling with diamonds, etc. Only watch connoseurs (mostly) even know what a Panerai is in my experience...and it is just as hard, maybe harder, to create and build simply designed timepieces where every flaw is more easily noticed if not perfect.

Still, I love both brands, owned both brands, just don't get the animosity towards Panerai - THE most successful brand to 'wake up' the watch industry in decades...never known an obnoxiously garrish Panerai owner yet!?


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## georges zaslavsky

Jebhut said:


> Is that what its like in France now?  NEVER seen a woman wearing a Panerai in the USA...guess France is different. Also, the whole beauty of Panerai was its simplistic 'understated' dial?? You want 'look at me', get a Rolex or big Breitling with diamonds, etc. Only watch connoseurs (mostly) even know what a Panerai is in my experience...and it is just as hard, maybe harder, to create and build simply designed timepieces where every flaw is more easily noticed if not perfect.
> 
> Still, I love both brands, owned both brands, just don't get the animosity towards Panerai - THE most successful brand to 'wake up' the watch industry in decades...never known an obnoxiously garrish Panerai owner yet!?


Hi Jeb

It is like that in France. For many French buyers from what I could perceive, understated goes with brands like GO,Zenith, Breguet, IWC, JLC, Omega and Rolex but certainly not Panerai. The huge case of the Panerai watches makes of it a flashy item. Panerai used to use ETA movements in their watches before being helped by JLC to make their own, so it is not really a real manufacture. It is more a brand which relied heavily on marketing rather than having a real history unlike the brands I quoted before. Panerai for many is a synonym of flamboyance and arrogance.

best regards

georges


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## westlake

I own over 60 Panerai (ok, no comments) and a handful of JLC's.
If I didn’t have a bunch of watches and the decision was down to Panerai vs JLC, I would choose the JLC without question. Their watches have great pedigree, excellent in-house movements, and robust engineering. That said, they aren’t much on the forefront of design and innovation (on the outside of the case) and wrist-presence is questionable in the States. Still you won’t ever go wrong buying a JLC.

Now if you want varienty and if you get "bit" by the watch bug, Panerai is a great place to undulge...


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## Jebhut

georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi Jeb
> 
> It is like that in France. For many French buyers from what I could perceive, understated goes with brands like GO,Zenith, Breguet, IWC, JLC, Omega and Rolex but certainly not Panerai. The huge case of the Panerai watches makes of it a flashy item. Panerai used to use ETA movements in their watches before being helped by JLC to make their own, so it is not really a real manufacture. It is more a brand which relied heavily on marketing rather than having a real history unlike the brands I quoted before. Panerai for many is a synonym of flamboyance and arrogance.
> 
> best regards
> 
> georges


_Clearly a 'class' response would never be to name call buyers of a class watch so negatively and aggressively...sorry! _

Not to overplay this intercontinental debate, but it is totally opposite here in the USA...if you're saying a 40mm or even 44mm Panerai case is flamboyant, with their simple understated designs, couldn't diagree more. (Panerai history is there by the way) Guess you just buy the big name brands who spend millions on advertising as a few of the mass produced brands you've listed...guess it works??)

As short a time ago as the 70's, the entire Swiss watch industry was almost dead...so this history thing is seriously overplayed on numerous brands I hear about and have indeed bought, only to hear a few swiss brands, 'German' brand, and famous 'diver' brand with so called rich 'history' wasn't even totally 'real'?? While you've listed the handful of the top Swiss and German brands (a few I _do_ love, a few mass produced over-priced nowadays)...might want to reconsider if brands like IWC, Omega are _true_ manufactures, and for how long? Using ETA's bad, huh? 'New' watch collector? Might want to check the facts that up until VERY recently almost all Swiss brands relied on (ETA, JLC or a few other)_ true _manufactures to 'mod' base movements and call them their own named calibres...bu ironically, it seems the 'new' collectors, trying to prove themselves so knowledgeable in horology, seem to often use this flawed theory, as justification for _their_ brands superiority!

And again...if you wanted flamboyant and 'arrogant' (arrogant - really, from wearing a Panerai - Wow!?) I would again suggest any number of other watches that would way surpass flamboyancy - Gold Cartiers, MontBlanc (new brand to watchmaking but status symbol name), any of the numerous diamond studded or flashy gold watches, Winstons, Grahams, 48mm Breitling Bentleys or Super Avengers (never saw a 'rap star' wearing a Panerai !) , the big 46mm IWC Big Pilot or DaVinci's (isn't a big attention drawing status symbol?), and pretty much a_ny _Rolex, would all scream desire NOT to go unnoticed or be understated way more than Panerai. Look to wall St., been there...the epitome of excess...loaded with Rolex, and some of your 'understated' list as well as even more exclusive, big money brands. All worn way more status symbols than Panerai ever was...get remarks on their beautiful unique design, but not near as many 'regular folks' know what a Panerai even is (vs Rolex, Omega, Tag, mass produced/heavily advertised brands, etc.)

Nothing at all I would even consider saying about GO or Breguet, class watches, beautifully made, not over-advertised...but totally different 'occasion use' watches...no reason to even compare them, as they're for totally different markets - sport vs 'dress'?? BUT, they are respected for very similar reasons - exclusivity, _under _advertised, low production/hand craftsmanship, beautiful above average fit and finish...

Wear what you like...but frankly, the epitome of 'arrogance' can not be placed on a watch...but would be more justifiably placed on an overly critical boistrous over the top opinion placed on people buying understated watches in what is a status symbol industry.


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## kalooy

georges zaslavsky said:


> Hi Jeb
> 
> It is like that in France. For many French buyers from what I could perceive, *understated* goes with brands like GO,Zenith, Breguet, IWC, JLC, Omega and *Rolex but certainly not Panerai*. The huge case of the Panerai watches makes of it a flashy item. Panerai used to use ETA movements in their watches before being helped by JLC to make their own, so it is not really a real manufacture. It is more a brand which relied heavily on marketing rather than having a real history unlike the brands I quoted before. Panerai for many is a synonym of flamboyance and arrogance.
> 
> best regards
> 
> georges


georges - you got to be kidding right?

Rolex is and always was the most overstated brand in watchmaking history - a history which btw started 48 years later than the history of Panerai!

Rolex produces 2000 watches in a single day - mostly fully automated without much hands on work (or manufacture in Latin) while Panerai produces 500 to a max. of 4000 pieces of a single model and far less automated...
So you can indulge wearing either a Rolex Sub with another 10 million followers or wear your Panerai and be assured that only 4000 people will ever wear that same model in the whole world!

The Panerai design is not a marketing gag or fashion watch but a proven military design for the Italian Navy - the main goal was maximum legibility and a very simplistic design and it had to be waterproof of course!

As my daily beater I am wearing a JLC watch worth more than 14k and nobody ever commented on it and I absolutely don't care. Some day I am going to buy a beautifully designed and made Panerai watch - not to be noticed more but because I love that great design and impeccable build quality - much better than any Rolex I have ever seen so far ....

To the OP: get the Panerai you love and a JLC later on when you have more money...


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## cbaytan

georges zaslavsky said:


> . Panerai for many is a synonym of flamboyance and arrogance.


+1
And also Rolex's, comparing JLC and Paneari style-wise gave me a bitter grin.


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## kiwidj

bazza. said:


>





Donut said:


>


Adding mine to the 190 fan club...

















:-!


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## Atoning Unifex

Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Get the JLC.


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## Janne

Panerai did a handful of watches from late 1930's to -44 (or so) and a smaller handful in the 1950's. Not sure if I should not say assembled, as Rolex made some cases, and Angelus the movements.
So that Panerai is older that Rolex is jot true
or am I wrong?


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## GETS

Overall JLC (if you made me choose). But comparing these two brands is very, very odd in my opinion as they are completely different in style.


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## georges zaslavsky

Jebhut said:


> _Clearly a 'class' response would never be to name call buyers of a class watch so negatively and aggressively...sorry! _
> 
> Not to overplay this intercontinental debate, but it is totally opposite here in the USA...if you're saying a 40mm or even 44mm Panerai case is flamboyant, with their simple understated designs, couldn't diagree more. (Panerai history is there by the way) Guess you just buy the big name brands who spend millions on advertising as a few of the mass produced brands you've listed...guess it works??)
> 
> As short a time ago as the 70's, the entire Swiss watch industry was almost dead...so this history thing is seriously overplayed on numerous brands I hear about and have indeed bought, only to hear a few swiss brands, 'German' brand, and famous 'diver' brand with so called rich 'history' wasn't even totally 'real'?? While you've listed the handful of the top Swiss and German brands (a few I _do_ love, a few mass produced over-priced nowadays)...might want to reconsider if brands like IWC, Omega are _true_ manufactures, and for how long? Using ETA's bad, huh? 'New' watch collector? Might want to check the facts that up until VERY recently almost all Swiss brands relied on (ETA, JLC or a few other)_ true _manufactures to 'mod' base movements and call them their own named calibres...bu ironically, it seems the 'new' collectors, trying to prove themselves so knowledgeable in horology, seem to often use this flawed theory, as justification for _their_ brands superiority!
> 
> And again...if you wanted flamboyant and 'arrogant' (arrogant - really, from wearing a Panerai - Wow!?) I would again suggest any number of other watches that would way surpass flamboyancy - Gold Cartiers, MontBlanc (new brand to watchmaking but status symbol name), any of the numerous diamond studded or flashy gold watches, Winstons, Grahams, 48mm Breitling Bentleys or Super Avengers (never saw a 'rap star' wearing a Panerai !) , the big 46mm IWC Big Pilot or DaVinci's (isn't a big attention drawing status symbol?), and pretty much a_ny _Rolex, would all scream desire NOT to go unnoticed or be understated way more than Panerai. Look to wall St., been there...the epitome of excess...loaded with Rolex, and some of your 'understated' list as well as even more exclusive, big money brands. All worn way more status symbols than Panerai ever was...get remarks on their beautiful unique design, but not near as many 'regular folks' know what a Panerai even is (vs Rolex, Omega, Tag, mass produced/heavily advertised brands, etc.)
> 
> Nothing at all I would even consider saying about GO or Breguet, class watches, beautifully made, not over-advertised...but totally different 'occasion use' watches...no reason to even compare them, as they're for totally different markets - sport vs 'dress'?? BUT, they are respected for very similar reasons - exclusivity, _under _advertised, low production/hand craftsmanship, beautiful above average fit and finish...
> 
> Wear what you like...but frankly, the epitome of 'arrogance' can not be placed on a watch...but would be more justifiably placed on an overly critical boistrous over the top opinion placed on people buying understated watches in what is a status symbol industry.


Europe is Europe, the USA are the USA. In the 70's, brands like Certina with the DS2, DS3, Omega with the Plo prof and the Seamaster 120 diving chrono, the Zodiac Superwolf 750 atm, Rolex with the sub 5513/5512 and the sea dweller 1660/1165, Eterna with the Kontiki, Blancpain with the Barracuda 50 fathoms, Jenny with the Carribean 1000 and Aquastar with the Benthos II were dominating the diving watch market.In the past Omega was a real manufacture as was Eterna and Certina until the mid 80's. Gold cartiers are smallers than Panerai in terms of size and less flamboyant. A Montblanc Rieussec is an haute horlogerie watch not a fashion unlike the Panerai.Breitling already made large watches in the 70s, the chronomatic pizza models which were of 48 mm of diameter. Winstons are mostly jewellery watches. Grahams are overpriced watches loaded with eta movements, so nothing out of the extraordinary. A Rolex remains a classic no matter whether it is overrated or not, it is a Rolex. A Rolex can also be used as currency in some countries, go try that with a Panerai. It will never be used as money even if it has a good resale value. 
Breguet is in the same league as Blancpain, Jaeger Lecoultre, GO and Lange & söhne but it isn't really a manufacture, most of its movements are made by the nouvelle lemania which was belonging to Omega before. Everyone has their defintion of arrogance, I have mine and you have yours.


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## georges zaslavsky

kalooy said:


> georges - you got to be kidding right?
> 
> Rolex is and always was the most overstated brand in watchmaking history - a history which btw started 48 years later than the history of Panerai!
> 
> Rolex produces 2000 watches in a single day - mostly fully automated without much hands on work (or manufacture in Latin) while Panerai produces 500 to a max. of 4000 pieces of a single model and far less automated...
> So you can indulge wearing either a Rolex Sub with another 10 million followers or wear your Panerai and be assured that only 4000 people will ever wear that same model in the whole world!
> 
> The Panerai design is not a marketing gag or fashion watch but a proven military design for the Italian Navy - the main goal was maximum legibility and a very simplistic design and it had to be waterproof of course!
> 
> As my daily beater I am wearing a JLC watch worth more than 14k and nobody ever commented on it and I absolutely don't care. Some day I am going to buy a beautifully designed and made Panerai watch - not to be noticed more but because I love that great design and impeccable build quality - much better than any Rolex I have ever seen so far ....
> 
> To the OP: get the Panerai you love and a JLC later on when you have more money...


Rolex produces 1 million watches per year to be accurate and even if build industrially the quality and finish of Rolex case, movement, crown, glass and bezel assembly surpass Panerai's quality and finish case, movement, crown, glass and bezel assembly. Panerai lever's crown system isn't as reliable nor robust as the twinlock or triplock crown. I love my 1951 JLC powermatic but between Panerai and Rolex, I chose Rolex.


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## Amnaggar

Janne said:


> Wonder what he is thinking.... See the smile?
> 
> I am not a pimp, director and def. not a pro athlete, but my PAM is my favourite Fashion watch.
> 
> But JLC are better.


Chanel is a fashion watch. Bvlgari is a fashion watch. Panerai is a watchmaker with a ton of history. Even Cartier IMHO counts as a jeweler, not a watchmaker.


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## Amnaggar

Jebhut said:


> I like FlyingPicasso's answer...(just got carried away on answering your other post regarding JLC resale, but had to respond here too)...it's a JLC crowd- unbiased polling? Always get a kick out of opinions expressed on forums with such certainty. Such black & white timepiece expertise to base your decision on - yet, ironically never knew watch lovers in the real world (not on forums) so opinionated on 'higher end' watches...
> 
> IMHO, never make your watch buying decision on other people's opinions, _especially_ on forums! Most just sell a brand because they own it...*buy what makes your heart stop for a second when it goes on your wrist. *Otherwise, what's the point??
> 
> FWIW, you're comparing 40mm dress JLc's, one diver JLC, and 3 44mm Panerais?? Totally different watches? Have you even tried them on? Will you be wearing it daily (sounded like it?) Do you wear busines attire? If so, maybe the 40mm JLC's are more appropriate/classic. That said, the PAM 321 is the hottest of the 6 IMO. In house movement. Fine watch - nicer watch than most people could ever dream of owning. You want compliments from women (Panerai) or old men (40mm JLC)  Kidding...kind of...
> 
> Panerai's resale values exceeded most any brand out there for y_ears! _ Pretty cool history of a small boutique selling small limited numbers to the Italian Navy til Richemont took them over, and became one of the best selling watches in the industry, selling through entire inventories yearly, unlike any other brand - ever. Never saw a brand phenom like they were at their peak when you literally had waiting lists on many of their models, some being bought at premiums!? People built Panerai collections - 6 Panerais, tens of thousands of dollars..rarely known anyone to have more than 1 or 2 JLC's. Rarely got a compliment on a watch til I got a Panerai.
> 
> I've loved my JLC's, but what exactly is the tremendous benefit of being a manufacture? Not accuracy. Not dependablility. I was into all that...I get it...but only important to YOU! Nobody else really cares. Especially if you're not on a forum. It's a watch. All the watchmaking prowess and in house movements don't mean diddly if you never flipped over it (and yes, appreciated the craftsmanship).
> 
> Own both brands. Love them both. Most watch lovers I knew never set foot on a forum! And unless you work on Wall St, (even then), most just own the well known status symbol brands in the movies or in magazines or on billboards. Different kinds of watch buyers buy for different reasons...


Love your enthusiasm! Well said


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## Amnaggar

Dancing Fire said:


> JLC all the way!! ...at least 2 levels above Panerais.


First serious watch I bought was a JLC Squadra GMT in 2008.. Loved it.. Interchanging between rubber and croc strap. Then.. I got a pam 372 end of last August (limited 1993 Jubilee IWC in between)... I wore the JLC once since the arrival of the 372... What's in panerais that does this?!


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## Chrono DV

I would pick JLC. I went through weeks of indecision and looked at Rolex, Panerai, Patek (preowned), GO, IWC, but fell for JLC. JLCs are just beautiful.


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## tigerpac

It makes me sad to see this thread even be a real discussion...


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## cbaytan

tigerpac said:


> It makes me sad to see this thread even be a real discussion...


+1 |>


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## Dancing Fire

tigerpac said:


> It makes me sad to see this thread even be a real discussion...


yup,only one of them belong in the high end


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## mrkz

Absolutely JLC for me, on craftsmanship and also a timeless style. 

However, one Panerai I do love is PAM 190: the Radiomir shape is my favorite, the size (while large) is not comical, and the movement... is by JLC! With an eight day power reserve and discreet power reserve indicator on the back no less.


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## Atoning Unifex

Dancing Fire said:


> yup,only one of them belong in the high end


+1


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## Jebhut

Who ever said this was a real discussion?? Calling Panerai owners pimps, etc.! Own both brands...love to hear the opinions of folks who don't, and what a shock - only recomending their brand...

Hand finished/crafted low production horological 'art', by one of the most successful 'new' brands to shake up the industry in decades...and in fact, attracts way _less_ status symbol seeking owners than those well advertised mass produced brands. A Panerai owner, like JLC, shows individuality...and the undeserved, unnecessary negativity just proves the 'faux elite' mentality...

Loved last year's article in IW about Mike Horn, one of the most acclaimed adventurers of our time, on a year long sailing project, sporting his beloved Panerai Luminor Submersible!! The man can choose ANY brand...but chose Panerai...rugged, durable, accurate, extraordinary timepiece. But, not high end enough to deserve a thread according to the posts by the only folks who know everything about watches here.

I've owned both brands, and others listed here (btw - there were only a few true 'manufactures' in the entire industry up til a decade or two ago - all those big Swiss and german brands were of less quality!? LOTS of folks who spent big money on them for decades might disagree. My Panerai (second) was more relliable and accurate than either of my JLC's, and creates more conversation with intelligent, interesting 'cultured' people than most any others I've owned. Some others listed here....are made more as 'jewelry' and status symbols, than simple horological art of truly unique design like Panerai is...

But that wasn't what the OP thread asked...point is, never listen to anyone on a forum for your buying decision. Too many folks like to hear themselves sound like ultimate authorities, when in fact, they're just _loud and istening to marketing_! Check impartial sources - magazine reviews, etc. Both are great brands, both 'dream' watches for the majority of the population...can't go wrong with either if you tried it on and it sang to you!! Either movement inside will more than outlive its life with you (before you sell, trade or put it away because you get a new one!) 90% of the real world won't know either brand...get the watch you love, or the 'insides' or pedigree won't mean diddly in a year. And anyone buying a watch based on its resale doesn't get it anyway...


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## Jebhut

!


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## Jebhut

aznseank said:


> Here is my two cents to your inquiry. If retaining the watch value is more important for you, then you should go with a Panerai. If company history is more important, then go for the JLC dual time. But in all honesty, for 8k, get a used Rolex Submariner(ceramic model) . It retains, if not increases, its value over many years.
> 
> Pros of owning a Panerai:
> -it will be very easy to liquadate this watch within the next 5 years.. 100% guaranteed
> -it is popular among the younger crowd (mid 20s to mid 30s)
> 
> Cons of owning a Panerai:
> -it might not do so well in 10years
> -only pimps, ..... directors, professional atheletes should wear this abomination
> 
> Pros of owning a JLC
> -peerless craftmanship and in house complication
> -long tradition and history
> -excellent finish/ a respectable watch in the eyes of any watch aficionado
> -gives you class
> 
> cons of owning a JLC
> -does not retain its value so well
> -unnoticed by most people
> 
> From your post, I think retaining value is the biggest condition for your next purchase. In this case, I would hands down recommend a Rolex Sub. However, if you want both, then you might be able to obtain a used Patek Calatrava for a bit more. Obviously, with the Calatrava, you get both value retention and history!


Just confirms my previous post...old thread, saw recently revived and went back to look over older posts.

As I just said in my previous post, never take advice from forum folks who love to hear themselves talk/think they know what they're talking about. Insted of offering specific model info/experience requested, he suggests mass produced Rolex - quality surpasses Panerai's? Really? According to who? Even suggests a Rolex over a JLC?? And finally, doesn't even own either brand being discussed?!

Hilarious.

Don't know one collector - and I've known many 'classy' watch lovers...respectful of others appreciation of watches other than what THEY own...just trying to help folks avoid mistakes by listening to folks who think only they know watches.


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## amine

So it's been 5 months since you posted this thread, after reading all the above advices and opinions what did you end up buying gargir78? we're all interested to see which timepiece you picked! Care to share my friend?


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## gargir78

Waiting for my taxes to come back,I am still torn


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## heuerolexomega

gargir78 said:


> Waiting for my taxes to come back,I am still torn


My advise is plan to own both, just decide which one you would like to own 1st. 
In my case I bought 1st the JLC and later I got my Panerai.


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## Pohm1

I have a JLC Reverso Duo, and I've ordered a Panarai 048, which I pick up in a couple of weeks. Comparing these watches is like comparing apples and oranges. Make a purchese based on when and where you will wear the watch, and more importantly, on what you like, not what everyone else likes!

P1


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## gargir78

Well just a quick update, I got a good deal on a used N series 320. So I bought it.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## Jebhut

I've chimed in here before...just a POI (;point of interest)...sold my beloved JLC MCDC - kept my PAM024. In house movements do NOT (IMHO) prove to be a hands down 'better' watch IMHO. More temperamental, less accurate...and way less compliments/conversation starters (amongst true watch lovers). Loved the JLC - was my dream watch since it came out...but bored me quicker? (Way worse resale too!) Arrived almost 10 sec's a day fast and JLC said it was 'acceptable', while my 3rd PAM was as always within a few sec's a day at worse, and 'perfect' fit and finish. Just thought some might find it interesting as an unbiased owner of a couple of each brand...(and dozens of others!  Buy what you like, as always, but don't get caught up in the whole proprietary thing (would NEVER buy another mass produced Rolex, etc. - in house just means more expensive to service! (Took me many years to 'get over' the 'hype'...hope it helps others not to put so much stock in it)


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## iim7v7im7

This is a silly thread...

The whole "manufacture" < "etablisseur" contention is a creation of the modern luxury watch era to differentiate luxury goods. It is a ploy to bolster the perception of exclusivity and ensure after sales service revenue. It also takes significant capital, skewing the table in favor of the very large companies. The industry has been through three major consolidations with major interventions by the banks and the Swiss Government in the 1860s, 1930s and 1980s. These consolidations gutted the industry of ebauche manufacturers. I believe ETA represented the lion share of a consolidated industries assets. 

Companies like AP, PP, Rolex and VC all used movements made for them by other companies. All this bashing of ETA, Frederic Piguet and Lemania is baseless hyperbole. Post quarts crisis, a 40% ownership stake in JLC was made by AP followed by in the late 1980s the LMH group purchasing the remaining 60% of JLC in the early 1990s. The movement into Richemont Group by the late 1990s it now transforms a "company" to a "brand". The cash paid by Richemont to AP allows them the means to buy Renaud & Papi (so they can jump on the in-house movement band wagon). 

If you like a JLC get that, if you like a Panerai get that. Both are brands of a large luxury conglomerate named Richemont. Very few companies of yesteryear still exist. Some do, but most of this is mythology to bolster brand equity and exclusivity. JLC indeed make some very fine watches but so do others. A fine watch is a fine watch period. It does not matter who made the movement so long as it was designed and made it well. Get the watch you like and stop listening to others...

My $.02


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## Crunchy

congrats on the pam, I would have gone for the panerai as well, JLC is great but not for everyone. PAM would make a better daily watch as the JLC options you listed are all dressy.


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## mark1958

I just took the time to read this whole thread. I never thought I would own a Panerai watch and now i own two. Seeing them in person just really turned me on and I have to admit even with a narrow 6.5 in wrist have no issue wearing the 44mm size. I own the PAM 311 and PAM 27C. The former is quite a busy dial for Panerai---- but it has GMT, Power Reserve indicator -- 8days, and a chronograph. Wish it had a date function. Nevertheless, this is a great travel watch and I love the 8 day manual wind. This watch keeps such outstanding time for me. I like the simplicity of the PAM 27C and the sweeping large seconds hand. 

On the other hand, I had also looked at number of JLCs --- even visited their boutique in Las Vegas. There are only a few styles --- that I am attracted to but the dials and sub dials are just too small and difficult for me to see well without my glasses. I have other watches like GO and IWC that I switch between but I could see wearing my PAM 311 everyday-- titanium so a bit lighter than the steel versions. I also like the design of the new PAM 526 Regatta with countdown timer complication or the bronze PAM 507--- which is limited edition and sold out before its release. I bet that watch will be sold at 2x or more -- its MSRP once folks gets their hands on it. So talk about value... ANyway this is just my 2c and based on my own opinion and likes/dislikes.


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## shnjb

As much love as JLC gets around here, every time I go into a JLC boutique to try on some of their watches, I do not like the way they look.


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## kylemacca01

I love panerai and between a pam or JLC id go for the pam. However the models you chose do nothing for me at all. Not a big fan of the luminor contemporary range. I think a pam should be manual wind and simple.

This is my favorite luminor and i would own it over any equally priced JLC (similar to your budget too).


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## retrodrive

shnjb said:


> As much love as JLC gets around here, every time I go into a JLC boutique to try on some of their watches, I do not like the way they look.


I am exactly in the same boat. No matter how hard i try to like JLC watches, they just look bland and boring to me.


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## Jebhut

aznseank said:


> Here is my two cents to your inquiry. If retaining the watch value is more important for you, then you should go with a Panerai. If company history is more important, then go for the JLC dual time. But in all honesty, for 8k, get a used Rolex Submariner(ceramic model) . It retains, if not increases, its value over many years.
> 
> Pros of owning a Panerai:
> -it will be very easy to liquadate this watch within the next 5 years.. 100% guaranteed
> -it is popular among the younger crowd (mid 20s to mid 30s)
> 
> Cons of owning a Panerai:
> -it might not do so well in 10years
> -only pimps, ..... directors, professional atheletes should wear this abomination
> 
> Pros of owning a JLC
> -peerless craftmanship and in house complication
> -long tradition and history
> -excellent finish/ a respectable watch in the eyes of any watch aficionado
> -gives you class
> 
> cons of owning a JLC
> -does not retain its value so well
> -unnoticed by most people
> 
> From your post, I think retaining value is the biggest condition for your next purchase. In this case, I would hands down recommend a Rolex Sub. However, if you want both, then you might be able to obtain a used Patek Calatrava for a bit more. Obviously, with the Calatrava, you get both value retention and history!


I love when folks offer a new brand that wasn't even the brand in question - guess YOU should buy a soul-less mass produced watch more common than Timex was 30 years ago...and mostly owned by folks who don't even know if they're run by a battery or mechanical!  Most everyone I've met with a Rolex bought it for work - and for making an impression. Pure status symbol...and nowhere near the quality of Panerai or JLC IMHO. But then, that was the OP's query...and luckily, bought one of the two he was originally interested in! Bravo!!


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## shnjb

Although I'm not a Rolex fan by any means, calling it a soul less mass produced brand makes me wonder what kind of soulful limited edition haute horlogerie timepieces you own.


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## refugio

I think he's just at the first (or is it second?) stage of Rolex enlightenment.


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## shnjb

refugio said:


> I think he's just at the first (or is it second?) stage of Rolex enlightenment.


Yes I know which article you r referring to lol.
I'm in my final stage.


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## refugio

I'm not sure exactly where I am. Just 10 minutes ago I bought a Fifty Fathoms, so my 14060M might go on the block. My wife really (and I mean REALLY!) likes her 76193, and she likes it when we both wear them. And I am very happy with the rugged 3130 movement, drilled lugs, 2 over 2 line printing, and - most important for me - no cyclops. But how many luxury tool watches does someone really need?


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## heuerolexomega

refugio said:


> I'm not sure exactly where I am. Just 10 minutes ago I bought a Fifty Fathoms, so my 14060M might go on the block. My wife really (and I mean REALLY!) likes her 76193, and she likes it when we both wear them. And I am very happy with the rugged 3130 movement, drilled lugs, 2 over 2 line printing, and - most important for me - no cyclops. But how many luxury tool watches does someone really need?


I just went through that dilemma, when I realize the difference between a watch museum and wrist time.
Congrats on your 50 Fathoms !


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