# What is the REAL story on "MARATHON" watches"



## dogdoc97

Some folks say they are "govt issued" for military use; some sites say that is bunk, they look nice but are they worth the price points that are advertised at? Are they well made? dogdoc:-s


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## bjp

See:
http://www.countycomm.com/watchqpl.htm

Marathons are really US govt. issue watches. The original SAR is also Canadian issue (that's who it was developed for originally).

Quality, on what I've had (SARs) is great. They're made to contract, not made for retail, so there CAN be relatively minor QC issues. Most sellers will gladly and quickly correct any issues.

The watches available for sale are contract overruns (I have my suspicions that the sellers have a deal with Marathon to guarantee a minimum number of "overruns", but there's nothing wrong with that, and it's only a suspicion).

For further verification private citizens can peruse the GSA catalog (but you can't purchase via that route) and see that the Marathon watches are there.

- ben


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## ecalzo

well done bjp...
;-):-!


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## lysanderxiii

dogdoc97 said:


> Some folks say they are "govt issued" for military use; some sites say that is bunk, they look nice but are they worth the price points that are advertised at? Are they well made? dogdoc:-s


Who says this is bunk?

And, what is your definition of "issued"?

If one defines a watch as "issued" to mean - "the watch in question was removed from Government supply, placed on a hand receipt and signed for by a employee of the the US Government, or other authorized user," most watches would not be "issued."

If one defines a watch as "issued" to mean - "the watch in question could, if purchased by the Government, be used to replace existing stock, because it is exactly the same in all details as those currently in Government supply," the models listed by Marathon are "issued."

As to how they come to the commercial market, it is not through theft or surplus,[1] but by deliberate overproduction on a given contract. These days the Government does not purchase watches in sufficient numbers to make providing special watches to them a profitable business. Therefore, with each contract, the manufacturer figures out the minimum size production run that will optimize the production cost, turns over to the Government the number they ordered and sells the remainder to the public at large.

With the US Government, the trend has been to buy certain items Commercial-Off-The Shelf (COTS), watches are one of these items, as there are many current production watches available commercially that will meet requirements. When the US Govt. purchases COTS, there is no alteration to the item, this includes ownership markings. The only thing they do is put a label on the outer package with stocking information. The Seiko SKX009K was one such issued watch, its National Stock Number (NSN) is 6645-01-469-9094. Another is the Seiko SKX173 with an NSN of 6645-21-558-0133.

I will let the implications of that sink in.

Note 1. Surplus is stock that was purchased by the Government previously, but now has been deemed excess to requirements and thus disposed of through proper channels (for the military Defense Reutilization and Marketing Office, or DRMO). This is extremely wasteful of tax dollars, and used as little as possible. DRMO also disposes of equipment that has been deemed unserviceable for a variety of reasons.


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## caffeinated

I'm in the U.S. Army. My supply sergeant requested watches for the unit. I was issued both a Marathon navigator style watch and a GSAR, last year. 
They are current issue watches, at least in the U.S. Army.

The thing about the NSN is that you order by NSN, and they send you whatever is in the system under that NSN at the time. If you ordered a certain NSN hoping to get a specific watch, and they had changed the supplier, you might get the new suppliers watch. We ordered 50 navigator style watches, and got a half-dozen old Stocker and Yale P650's mixed in with the new Marathon navigators. It was like Christmas! 

(Just FYI, any watches I've been issued will be used and kept by me. No way I would risk my career, not to mention my relationship with my excellent supply sergeant, by trying to profit off issued watches.)


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## bjp

caffeinated said:


> (Just FYI, any watches I've been issued will be used and kept by me. No way I would risk my career, not to mention my relationship with my excellent supply sergeant, by trying to profit off issued watches.)


Good call, declaring that.
Otherwise, you'd have at least a half-dozen PMs within an hour offering to take a SandY off your hands.......................

cheers,

ben


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## Shany

really good quote


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## Crusader

What I find at least as interesting as the "issued" issue is that there is a set of dedicated military specifications for the Mil-W-46374 watches (but not, e.g. - AFAIK - for the SAR family of watches, or the other COTS-procured watches).


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## lysanderxiii

Crusader said:


> What I find at least as interesting as the "issued" issue is that there is a set of dedicated military specifications for the Mil-W-46374 watches (but not, e.g. - AFAIK - for the SAR family of watches, or the other COTS-procured watches).


All COTS procured items have specifications written against them. In fact, everything has a specification written for it somewhere. You just are not going to find MIL-PRF-54321, Aircraft, Fighter/Attack, F-18 out there, but somewhere in the mountain of paperwork there is a document that describes what the aircraft is mission is, what performance it will have, what kind of maintenance it will require and who will perform what maintenance, etc, etc.

COTS watches have the same thing, somewhere in the documentation for procuring the watch, there is a specification that must be met and has all the same elements as MIL-PRF-46374G, ie a scope (a brief description of the document and what it is supposed to be about), a reference section (listing any documents that may be referenced), a requirements section (what, exactly, is the item is supposed to do and just how well it is supposed to do it), a verification or quality assurance section (how to tell if the item meets the requires outlined in the previous section), a packaging section (how the item is to be delivered to the procuring agency), and a miscellaneoussection (for anything missed or additional information pertinent to the document.)


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## dogdoc97

Ok, you guys gave me alot of info on how these watches get to market; now...do you like the quality; I mean for $2500(CSAR model) is this a first pick for some of you compared to other brands; military or not? Thanks, dogdoc


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## caffeinated

dogdoc97 said:


> Ok, you guys gave me alot of info on how these watches get to market; now...do you like the quality; I mean for $2500(CSAR model) is this a first pick for some of you compared to other brands; military or not? Thanks, dogdoc


I've never held a CSAR, can't say anything about it. But after wearing the GSAR for a few months, I have to say I wouldn't want to have paid $700 for it. All the things others have said about it are true, it's solid and made for rough duty. If you search the forum for some reviews you'll get all the info you can take. It's a good watch, but it's not perfect. The bezel on mine doesn't line up perfectly with 12 o'clock and slips when you turn it, and it runs 30 seconds fast per day. Granted these are all things that can be fixed easily, but that's not the point when you could have spent $150 on a Seiko 007...

I can think of at least 5 other watches I'd spend $2500 on before another Marathon. That said, I'm not giving my GSAR up either. :-d


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## duke4c

Word "issue" is way overused if you asked me. While I'm not in the army I had opportunity to talk with folks who "order" stuff and here is what they've told me:

Watch as a piece of equipment is never issued. It's not a gun or a pair of boots that everyone "gets" when they signed up. It's simply a piece of equipment avaliable as gouvernment approves accecory in a catalogue. If service man wants something from that catalogue they can get it partially funded by gouvernment (we pay about 400 for Marathon, man and women in service pay about half or that price). Some folks will purchase it as a mean to make their day to day job easier other won't...

Marathon was approaced by the Canadian Guvernment since the need surfaced for a timepiece suitable for Canadian Search and rescue folks. If you google this you'll find that our Canuck SAR team trully works in VERY extreme conditions on day to day basis and VERY far away from home for extended period of time.

Now if I recall the story correctly, at a time, Marathon new VERY little about making watches so they asked a guy from countrycomm (bob is his name I beleve but don't qoute me on it) to help tham answer that need.

That's all there is to it really. New order will come up only when item is sold out from catalogue (for some items in catalogue they automatically reorder more... I'm unsure if watches are automatically re-ordered once sold out or not...)

Rest as they say it's history...

P.S.

As much as Marathons are nice, do be ware that not every service man either likes it or wants it. There are still quite a few of SAR memebers who either don't wear a watch or if they do, they wear G-Shock or Timex since they're equially reliable while beeing mych cheaper and easy to replace.


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## lysanderxiii

duke4c said:


> While I'm not in the army I had opportunity to talk with folks who "order" stuff and here is what they've told me:
> 
> Watch as a piece of equipment is never issued. It's not a gun or a pair of boots that everyone "gets" when they signed up. It's simply a piece of equipment avaliable as gouvernment approves accecory in a catalogue. If service man wants something from that catalogue they can get it partially funded by gouvernment (we pay about 400 for Marathon, man and women in service pay about half or that price). Some folks will purchase it as a mean to make their day to day job easier other won't...


No, 'fraid not.

Items issued by the Government are given to the employee[1] or servicemember free of charge for use in their work.

Depending on the cost and/or nature of the item it may be required to be returned to the Goverment after use, sometimes immediately, sometimes they are issued on a semi-permanent basis, to be returned when the employee leaves federal service, or when he/she leave the position requiring the special equipment. Also, some items due to cost are not required to be returned (the cost of paperwork and returning the item, now used, may exceed the cost of procuring a new item.) The local supervisor/commander with budget authority has the leeway to decide what can and will be written off. There are, also, items that for hygiene reasons are not required to be returned.

BUT, at no time does an employee/servicemember purchase a servicable item from the Government supply. The only time an employee/servicemember is required to pay for an item is when that item was lost or destroyed while in the care of said employee/servicemember due to negligence. Then the original purchase price of the item is amortized. So, a $4000 2-1/2 ton trailer purchased in 1967, lost in 1996, may result in a payment of $80.



duke4c said:


> Marathon was approaced by the Canadian Guvernment since the need surfaced for a timepiece suitable for Canadian Search and rescue folks. If you google this you'll find that our Canuck SAR team trully works in VERY extreme conditions on day to day basis and VERY far away from home for extended period of time.
> 
> Now if I recall the story correctly, at a time, Marathon new VERY little about making watches so they asked a guy from countrycomm (bob is his name I beleve but don't qoute me on it) to help tham answer that need.


Not likely, Marathon was making military specification watches way back in the mid 1980s, they knew quite a bit about making watches. And their major supplier/parent company, Gallet, was in the watch business for decades.

__________________
NOTE 1. I wrote "employee," as any employee of the Federal Goverment can order most of this kind of stuff (anything in the GSA catalog, anway.) A worker at the Commission for Fine Arts, who has the proper budget and the need a chronograph watch to perform his job, can order a CSAR from the GSA catalog.


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## caffeinated

lysanderxiii said:


> No, 'fraid not.
> 
> Items issued by the Government are given to the employee[1] or servicemember free of charge for use in their work.


This is all true. I got my GSAR free. But I had to sign a hand receipt for it. That's an accounting document that allows the supply sergeant to show where a piece of equipment is or who has responsibility for it. When I leave the unit, I may have to return the watch or be charged for it. The watch cost the Army $300, so I will probably pay for it so I can keep it. There is a chance, however, that they commander will decide that I can just keep the watch, it's really his call on an item of personal issue like that.

Everything issued in the Army is one of three categories. Expendable, Durable and Non-expendable. Expendable items are like toilet paper, batteries, motor oil, things that are consumed in use. Durable items are things that can be used over and over for a period of time, like a pair of gloves, a sleeping bag or coveralls. Non-expendable items are things that can reasonably be expected to last indefinately if cared for properly, like trucks, tanks, generators and weapons.

The little Marathon navigator that costs the Army $30 is considered expendable (because it's plastic) and we didn't hand reciept them to the troops. Although I've got a list of the Soldiers in my platoon who were issued one. But that's because I require my troops to wear a watch so they have no excuse for being late. This is one of the reasons I asked supply to order watches.

The GSAR is a durable item, and as such, could be something that must be turned in when the Soldier leaves the unit, like a kevlar helmet (actually called ACH now.) Or it could be permanently issued like a pair of gloves or ballistic protective eyeglasses. In our case, I'm pretty sure we are keeping the watches. Mainly because my commander listens to me and the other senior NCO's.


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## Dennis Smith

caffeinated said:


> The little Marathon navigator that costs the Army $30 is considered expendable (because it's plastic) and we didn't hand reciept them to the troops. Although I've got a list of the Soldiers in my platoon who were issued one. But that's because I require my troops to wear a watch so they have no excuse for being late. This is one of the reasons I asked supply to order watches.


That's great....I like your style :-!


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## caffeinated

Dennis Smith said:


> That's great....I like your style :-!


Thanks! It's funny, you have no idea how many times I've had a 19 year-old private tell me that they use their cell phone to tell time. And often in the field, they either don't carry their cell, or don't have an opportunity to charge it so it dies. 
I can't really order them to go out and buy a watch, so, we ordered some.


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## scuttle

lysanderxiii said:


> Not likely [that CountyComm would be approached to design the SAR for Marathon through lack of inhouse expertise] Marathon was making military specification watches way back in the mid 1980s, they knew quite a bit about making watches. And their major supplier/parent company, Gallet, was in the watch business for decades.


But County Comm *did* design the SAR- unless their website is lying. Go see.


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## lysanderxiii

scuttle said:


> But County Comm *did* design the SAR- unless their website is lying. Go see.


They very well may have, but it wasn't because Marathon "[k]new VERY little about making watches..."


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## dogdoc97

Quite a response I started; sorry guys! dogdoc


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## Doug507

caffeinated said:


> But after wearing the GSAR for a few months, I have to say I wouldn't want to have paid $700 for it. All the things others have said about it are true, it's solid and made for rough duty. If you search the forum for some reviews you'll get all the info you can take. It's a good watch, but it's not perfect. The bezel on mine doesn't line up perfectly with 12 o'clock and slips when you turn it, and it runs 30 seconds fast per day. Granted these are all things that can be fixed easily, but that's not the point when you could have spent $150 on a Seiko 007...


I 100% agree. My dinged-up, high-miles Seiko 007 has a much better bezel, lower profile and is far more accurate than my GSAR - and it cost 1/4 what the GSAR did. I won't be selling my GSAR, but Marathon is off my "want" list of tool watches - Seiko is there to stay.


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## caffeinated

dogdoc97 said:


> Quite a response I started; sorry guys! dogdoc


Hey, don't apologize for starting an interesting discussion on a forum! 
That's the whole point! |>


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## AndyFromHonolulu

*Quite correct...*

Marathon is no newcomer to the military contract watch business, having supplied watches to the U.S. military for 25 years. CountyComm, MWR, and a few friends did play a key role in designing the SAR series. Prototypes of the bezel design were made using Stocker & Yale Sandy 660 issue watches as the test bed.

Mahalo,

andy



lysanderxiii said:


> They very well may have, but it wasn't because Marathon "[k]new VERY little about making watches..."


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## polishammer

I agree with most that there are better watches for the price out there than Marathon, but, most of us not always spend the money for the best thing out there, but rather for what we feel like owning at a given time. So at the end of the day if you purchase a watch and will continue to question your decision, you will never be happy with what you have. Saying that, I have bot GSAR and JSAR, both are great and although I have questioned my other watch purchases, for some reason I never did question the Marathons. :-x


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## scuttle

lysanderxiii said:


> Originally Posted by *scuttle*
> _But County Comm *did* design the SAR- unless their website is lying. Go see._
> 
> They very well may have, but it wasn't because Marathon "[k]new VERY little about making watches..."


Sure. But how much is there to designing a watch anyway? You specify the movement and a dial design, say which of several standard shock absorb systems and crowns you want, and it's over. So why did Marathon go to CC? Who knows. It's just as incomprehensible as the Canadian dept responsible paying over the odds for a custom design which it seems a lot of their people like less than a G-Shock.


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## AndyFromHonolulu

*Designing can be pretty important...*

Aloha,

If you ever get a chance, you might ask someone like Bill Yao of Mk II, John Peterson of Bathys Hawaii and Michael Kobold of Kobold Watches about the complexities of watch design, particularly dive watch design. I am sure all would tell you that it's a bit more than just ordering parts out of a contract manufacturer's catalog, at least if you want something that is very specific to you needs. In the case of the SAR, it's my understanding that while the Canadian Coast Guard already had good experience with an earlier automatic dive watch that Marathon supplied for their Search and Rescue Techs, they were looking for something better suited for the cold water enviroment the watches were expected to be used in. And while G-Shocks are used by a whole lot of military and special ops personnel from many countries, it may have more to do with their low cost and durability, rather than whether it is best fits the desired function. The SAR's timing bezel needed to be easy to use with thick winter dive gloves, and the dial easy to read in less than ideal lighting conditions, and in extreme cold (worn outside the dive suit). The SAR prototypes were tested by people who dive for a living. And the watches, while not as inexpensive as a G-Shock, are still way less expensive (especially to the government) than say a Rolex Submariner. Now, whether a Seiko dive watch would not have been fine is a question I can't answer (I'm wearing a 6309 diver as I write this), other than to say that the SAR's 2824 movement can be hacked and hand wound when needed, and the Seiko 7S26 cannot.

Mahalo,

andy



scuttle said:


> Sure. But how much is there to designing a watch anyway? You specify the movement and a dial design, say which of several standard shock absorb systems and crowns you want, and it's over. So why did Marathon go to CC? Who knows. It's just as incomprehensible as the Canadian dept responsible paying over the odds for a custom design which it seems a lot of their people like less than a G-Shock.


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## dogdoc97

thanks; it was very enlightening for me!!!!!!!!! dogdoc


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## Crusader

*Re: Designing can be pretty important...*

Excellent summary, Andy.

One might add that the battery of a quartz movement will become inoperable at less lower temperatures than a mechanical movement, and that an LCD display will become inoperable at even less lower temperatures, IIRC.


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## Bobmwr

*Re: Designing can be pretty important...*

Oftentimes watches are designed by committee. A committee that may understand ISO specs and steel hardness, but have never actually used the watches for their intended purpose. To set the record straight, Marathon came to us for help because we had end-user knowledge of what a SAR-TECH might want on a watch. I myself have been a SAR Diver for over 20 years and I realized the shortcomings of most dive watches were that although often robust enough, were clearly designed by desk divers who never actually had to dive for a living. One of the first things I advised the design team was the fact that 99% of dive bezels including Rolex are hard to turn underwater. That's why the SAR series of watches have a tall bezel. There were a lot of other considerations, but that is it in a nutshell.

P.S. Hiya Andy! Mahalo



AndyFromHonolulu said:


> Aloha,
> 
> If you ever get a chance, you might ask someone like Bill Yao of Mk II, John Peterson of Bathys Hawaii and Michael Kobold of Kobold Watches about the complexities of watch design, particularly dive watch design. I am sure all would tell you that it's a bit more than just ordering parts out of a contract manufacturer's catalog, at least if you want something that is very specific to you needs. In the case of the SAR, it's my understanding that while the Canadian Coast Guard already had good experience with an earlier automatic dive watch that Marathon supplied for their Search and Rescue Techs, they were looking for something better suited for the cold water enviroment the watches were expected to be used in. And while G-Shocks are used by a whole lot of military and special ops personnel from many countries, it may have more to do with their low cost and durability, rather than whether it is best fits the desired function. The SAR's timing bezel needed to be easy to use with thick winter dive gloves, and the dial easy to read in less than ideal lighting conditions, and in extreme cold (worn outside the dive suit). The SAR prototypes were tested by people who dive for a living. And the watches, while not as inexpensive as a G-Shock, are still way less expensive (especially to the government) than say a Rolex Submariner. Now, whether a Seiko dive watch would not have been fine is a question I can't answer (I'm wearing a 6309 diver as I write this), other than to say that the SAR's 2824 movement can be hacked and hand wound when needed, and the Seiko 7S26 cannot.
> 
> Mahalo,
> 
> andy


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## dmark

Bob,

As a GSAR and TSAR owner and fan, could you talk more on the development details on those and also the move to offering other models such as the TSAR, CSAR, and JSAR.

Thanks!


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## MilSpecIA

Ok guys lets lay this to bed. Yes, Marathon currently holds the US Government contract to supply COTS timepieces to the US Military. Marathon and several others. So it's no big issue in the use of the word "Government Issued" because it is in fact issued to the US service member through the supply and issue process (vis a vie NSN process). It doesn't mean that their surplus and thus discontinued, it just means that the US Government stipulated certain requirements for a watch and several companies were chosen based off their product. This summer when I wrote an article for MOAA I contacted the Director of Marathon Operations in Ontario and talked to him. They sent me one of each watch for their lineup and I took them out with me to Iraq and beat the crap out of them all. I liked it so much in fact that I purchased the Pilot's Chrono when I got back. There is a vast world of difference between the SAR and Pilot's Chrono. Mainly the timing mechanism inside. In short, the Chrono has the same timing device found in Rolex and other high end models. Yes the bezel will move if given pressure...that's what it's supposed to do. If you bang it against something with enough force, any bezel will move. But it has an internal locking device set for a specific torsion so as not to slide with little play or accidental movement. Remember you get what you pay for. If you are willing to pay 2k plus, you best know what you're getting. As for me, I love it. It's my daily wearer. It looses about 10-30 seconds per month based on how well you keep it wound but that's the same as my Rolex. Nice heft, good large face, awesome watch. I'd recommend the deployment bracelet however.

Here's some pics...


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## bjp

MilSpecIA said:


> In short, the Chrono has the same timing device found in Rolex and other high end models.
> 
> Yes the bezel will move if given pressure...that's what it's supposed to do. If you bang it against something with enough force, any bezel will move. But it has an internal locking device set for a specific torsion so as not to slide with little play or accidental movement.


Rolex chronos (Daytonas) don't use the 7750, which the Marathon does (along with most other automatic chronos on the market).

Not sure that the spring that controls the bezel tension could be considered to be set to a "specific torsion". It's a spring, just a spring.

I love (LOVE) Marathons, but your post sorta sounds like marketing spiel....

-ben


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## lysanderxiii

bjp said:


> Rolex chronos (Daytonas) don't use the 7750, which the Marathon does (along with most other automatic chronos on the market).
> 
> Not sure that the spring that controls the bezel tension could be considered to be set to a "specific torsion". It's a spring, just a spring.
> 
> I love (LOVE) Marathons, but your post sorta sounds like marketing spiel....
> 
> -ben


The spring that retains the bezel can be tightened or loosened, although, I agree that setting one to a specific rotational torque would take the patience of Job.


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## MilSpecIA

bjp said:


> Not sure that the spring that controls the bezel tension could be considered to be set to a "specific torsion". It's a spring, just a spring.
> 
> I love (LOVE) Marathons, but your post sorta sounds like marketing spiel....
> 
> -ben


Hmmm let me cite my sources since I'm apparently "marketing" them, any apparent Valjoux Automatic watch, or Marathon...

Why the Valjoux is about the best timing device in Sinn, Omega, and other high end wathces... 
http://www.chronomaddox.com/valjoux_7750_engine.html

then theres wikipedia, probabbly the world's largest online referancing network specifically citing high end models utilizing the 7750 (or any Valjoux for that matter since their all the same manufacturer)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valjoux

So yes, if it does sound like a marketing spiel it's because I just demoed Marathon and about five other major companies' watches to a large number of military service members while in Iraq and almost unanimously they would have all chosen Marathon's timepieces. Aside from my Rolex, Marathon is the best watch I've ever owned and I've been to Iraq three times I wind up useing mine for a bit more than sitting behind a desk watching to see what time is my next chow.

As far as the bezel goes...I didn't think I'd have to explain it this dumbed down but I guess I do. When I said the bezel is set to a certain torque level I mean that yes the spring is set to a certain torsion level so as to allow freedom of movement without slippage. Of course each watch isn't individually set to a set rate, that would take far more patience and skill than the manufacture is willing to allow. When they design the watch they determine what components have what characteristics, to include the bezel locking spring. If you have more than one watch with a rotating bezel you'll notice a difference in torsion levels needed to move it (basic physics, force and friction). Marathon has one of the more secure I've seen.


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## bjp

MilSpecIA said:


> Hmmm let me cite my sources since I'm apparently "marketing" them, any apparent Valjoux Automatic watch, or Marathon...
> 
> Why the Valjoux is about the best timing device in Sinn, Omega, and other high end wathces...
> http://www.chronomaddox.com/valjoux_7750_engine.html
> 
> then theres wikipedia, probabbly the world's largest online referancing network specifically citing high end models utilizing the 7750 (or any Valjoux for that matter since their all the same manufacturer)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valjoux
> 
> So yes, if it does sound like a marketing spiel it's because I just demoed Marathon and about five other major companies' watches to a large number of military service members while in Iraq and almost unanimously they would have all chosen Marathon's timepieces. Aside from my Rolex, Marathon is the best watch I've ever owned and I've been to Iraq three times I wind up useing mine for a bit more than sitting behind a desk watching to see what time is my next chow.
> 
> As far as the bezel goes...I didn't think I'd have to explain it this dumbed down but I guess I do. When I said the bezel is set to a certain torque level I mean that yes the spring is set to a certain torsion level so as to allow freedom of movement without slippage. Of course each watch isn't individually set to a set rate, that would take far more patience and skill than the manufacture is willing to allow. When they design the watch they determine what components have what characteristics, to include the bezel locking spring. If you have more than one watch with a rotating bezel you'll notice a difference in torsion levels needed to move it (basic physics, force and friction). Marathon has one of the more secure I've seen.


touchy, touchy........... I simply stated that you were incorrect in your statement that Rolex uses the V 7750 movement and questioned that the spring in the bezel is set to a "specific torsion". The Marathon bezels vary widely in the force required to turn them. I've had several, and each was quite different (ranging from ridiculously easy to extremely stiff/difficult). I don't believe these watches were originally manufactured to any particular mil spec (like the 50717, otherwise known to collectors in the form of the iconic Benrus Type I and II, was). That absence of a spec would indicate that there's no requirement by the purchaser (governments, in this case) to have any particularl, measurable force-to-turn-requirement, and you've implied that there is. By the way, below is the definition of torsion.
The act of twisting or turning.
The condition of being twisted or turned.
The stress or deformation caused when one end of an object is twisted in one direction and the other end is held motionless or twisted in the opposite direction.
Next time you want to ... for me and others who you think don't understand ..., use a term that means what you think it does. If we don't understand how a diver's style rotating bezel works, using "big words" won't help us.

cheers!

ben

EDIT ADDENDUM: look, I know I'm not coming off here with the most friendly attitude in this post, but it's off-putting at best when someone pipes up acting like some sort of authority and throws out incorrect (at worst) or misleading or confusing (at best) information. I'm not _trying_ to be rude. I'm trying to have an accurate record that, at least in part, answers the original poster's question on what the "real story" on Marathon watches is. I love them, I love them, I love them. Sounds like MilspecIA does too. But that doesn't address the issue presented. bjp


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## Crusader

FWIW, the Marathon Navigator is based on a Milspec which also specifies the minimum torque required to turn the bezel: 180 ± mNm in both directions, and the bezel must withstand w/o damage a force of 44.5 ± 2 N applied to the lower side of the ET ring. This is for a de-facto friction plastic bezel mechanism.

I am not aware of a similar requirement for the SAR-series. Having said that, based on several years of following Marathon watches and others on various fora, I would be hard pressed to believe that the bezel mechanism, or the choice of movements, would set Marathon apart from a large group of well-made, affordable tool watch makers.


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## bjp

Thanks, Martin. You're right in that the friction bezels do follow a spec. I was, as was the poster I replied to, referring to the SAR bezel. Should have been more clear on that.

On an almost unrelated note, I spent an hour or so going through the 50717 spec this past weekend. What fun it would have been to be the inspector who got to test samples on that project! I wonder if they actually measured the force required to turn the bezel like the spec says (or applied an exact force when pulling out the crown)?


cheers,

ben


----------



## lysanderxiii

Crusader said:


> FWIW, the Marathon Navigator is based on a Milspec which also specifies the minimum torque required to turn the bezel: 180 ± mNm in both directions, and the bezel must withstand w/o damage a force of 44.5 ± 2 N applied to the lower side of the ET ring. This is for a de-facto friction plastic bezel mechanism.


MIL-W-50717: 16 to 25 inch ounces is a fairly wide range,



> 3.9.3 Elapsed time ring.
> 
> 3.9.3.1 [skipped]
> 
> 3.9.3.2 Torque.- The elapsed time ring shall not rotate when subjected to a torque of less than 16 inch-ounces or more than 25 inch-ounces.


MIL-W-46374F: (even more variation)(same values for G revision)



> 3.2.9.2 Torque. The elapsed time ring shall move only when a torque of 26 +/- 6 inch-ounces is applied.





bjp said:


> On an almost unrelated note, I spent an hour or so going through the 50717 spec this past weekend. What fun it would have been to be the inspector who got to test samples on that project! I wonder if they actually measured the force required to turn the bezel like the spec says (or applied an exact force when pulling out the crown)?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> ben


Yes, but it was probably a tedious and boring job.



> 4. QUALITY ASSURANCE PROVISIONS
> 
> 4.1 Responsibility for inspection.- Unless otherwise specified in the contract or purchase order, the supplier is responsible for the performance of all inspection requirements as specified herein. Except as otherwise specified in the contract or order, the supplier may use his own or other facilities suitable for the performance of the inspection requirements specified herein, unless disapproved by the Government. The Government reserves the right to perform any of the inspections set forth in the specification where such inspections are deemed necessary to assure supplies and services conform to prescribed requirements.
> 
> 4.1.1 Quality assurance terms and definitions.- Quality assurance terms and definitions shall be as listed in MIL-STD-109.
> 
> 4.2 Classification of inspections.- The inspection requirements specified herein are classified as follows:
> 
> a. First article inspection (see 4.3) .
> b. Quality conformance inspection (see 4.4).
> 
> 4.3 First article inspection.- First article inspection shall be as specified in the contract or purchase order. First article inspection shall be in conformance with the first article tests listed in Table I.
> 
> 4.3.1 Samples.- Four (4) watches shall be subjected to first article inspection. The watches shall be manufactured in the same manner, using the same materials, equipment, processes and procedures as used in regular production.
> 
> 4.3.2 Failure.- Failure of any sample watch to pass all the tests listed in Table I is cause for rejection of all samples submitted at one time for first article inspection.
> 
> [TABLE I]
> 
> 4.4 Quality conformance inspection.- Quality conformance inspection shall be in accordance with the examinations and tests listed in Tables II and III.
> 
> 4.4.1 Inspection lot.- Unless otherwise specified by the contracting officer, inspection lot size, formation and presentation of lots shall be in accordance with "Submission of Product" and "Drawing of Samples" specified in MIL-STD-105.
> 
> 4.4.2 Classification of examinations and tests.- Examinations and tests shall be performed on a defect (individual characteristic) basis in accordance with MIL-STD-105 and the Inspection Level and Sampling Plans specified in Tables 11 and III. Examination and tests for packaging, packing and marking shall be in accordance with PPP-T-360 and Section 5 herein. The tabulated classification of defects shall constitute the minimum inspection to be performed by the supplier prior to Government acceptance or rejection by lot. The Government reserves the right to inspect for any applicable requirement, and to reject individual nonconforming it ems.
> [TABLE II]


----------



## VAORISMAN

Once again, thanks to members like you, I've "had" to buy a watch! My GSAR just arrived today and it looks great. Now I have to find a way to explain to my wife why I needed yet ANOTHER watch.


----------



## 3Dials

The real story behind Marathon watches?

As a budding WIS on a (hopefully reasonable) budget, the most I've ever spent on a watch was for my Marathon GSAR in LNIB condition- and I haven't regretted the purchase at all (except only in that I wish I could have ordered the CSAR).

I suspect that the diehard Marathon fanatics like myself- like any hardcore enthusiasts- appreciate their choice of watch despite the fact that certain watches may have better "value" price-wise, or are allegedly more functional, or any other single factor. No, Marathon watch enthusiasts like them just the way they are. I am really thankful that Bobmwr and his crew were able to help Marathon bring the GSAR and its cousins to fruition. Though there is a Dievas lookalike and Seiko has a stable of good-looking, consistently value-priced divers, my Marathon TSAR and GSAR are just tops in terms of execution, legibility, and style. They are bold, unpretentious, and excel exactly for what they were created to do.


----------



## Doug507

VAORISMAN said:


> Once again, thanks to members like you, I've "had" to buy a watch! My GSAR just arrived today and it looks great. Now I have to find a way to explain to my wife why I needed yet ANOTHER watch.


Just peddle it as part of that whole "change" thing! It works for everything else :-d

Enjoy your GSAR, it's a solid watch!


----------



## tallguy

VAORISMAN said:


> Once again, thanks to members like you, I've "had" to buy a watch! My GSAR just arrived today and it looks great. Now I have to find a way to explain to my wife why I needed yet ANOTHER watch.


Hey, from your signature it is your only watch with trit tubes; you NEEDED IT! (Although I bet that 2254.50 glows like a torch!)b-)


----------



## JMS

Interesting discussion.

The Marathon name and fonts used have been around since the late 60's early 70's on Russian pocket watches sold throughout North America. The name then has nothing to do with the name now. I have numerous of these Marathon 3602 pieces which my dad bought while he was still farming. So the name is old and then retaken. You will find this on Marathon current Russian pocket watch










Marathon is now off my personal want list simply because for myself I don't think they could improve any way on the Sar & Sar-D. I have em all and numerous of the previous two mentioned, extra bits and bobs too, my collection is complete.

There will be new models coming out I understand. I will say I love the Sar cases. Of the last ones I picked up from them two had to go back, one would not run for more than an hour and the other you could not set the time, a testament to what I am seeing come from ETA on the low grade movements

..............


----------



## brabus

I literally live just a few minutes away from marathon watches HQ in richmond hill, Ontario. Do you think they'll sell to a normal civilian like me if i asked them or something, maybe they might have some in stock? Has anyone tried?

Thanks
Brad


----------



## withthesword

i live in etobicoke, so it's a quick drive to richmond hill.

a while ago i actually spoke with a rep on the phone at the richmond hill office about getting a maple leaf bracelet (which was extremely scarce at the time for some reason) and i took the time to ask if they sold watches as well.

he said that they were only authorized to sell watches in bulk to qualified government agencies and that they don't sell to civvies. they do, however, sell bracelets to anyone. since my QM wasn't about to request an nsn just for me, i had to get my sterile tsar by other means.

way i figure, it was worth a try to ask. unfortunately the answer was no.


----------



## nabiru

Hi guys.I am new on the forum and I have a question.I have seen Marathon watches without the Marathon logo on the dial.Only the red maple leave .Plus no Marathon Watch Co. etching on the back.I would really appreciate if someone could help me out with the correct explanation.I thought every product needs advertisement.Thanks a lot.


----------



## AndyFromHonolulu

*Msar...*

The watch you saw has been called the "MSAR", the M for the maple leaf. It was a batch of the GSAR watches made in 2009 for a Canadian military contract. There is no "Marathon" on the dial, as the maple leaf takes its place. The caseback should be similar to that on all other GSAR/TSAR/SAR watches, which do have necessary information engraved, but none of them have "Marathon" included. If you're saying that there's nothing on the caseback, well that's a different story.

Mahalo,

andy


----------



## nabiru

*Re: Msar...*

Thank you Andy for the infn the back has everything ,like you said.Without the Marathon Watch Co. logo.


----------



## Vanno

This was a very interesting read.

I recently bought a MSAR with the maple leaf bracelet and couldn't be happier. I am just starting out my watch collection (Orange Monster, Tissot PRC200, green 6900 G-Shock...) and after reading reviews on the GSAR and MSAR I needed to have one.

I work for the Federal Government in Canada so I was lucky enough to order the watch directly from Marathon. The people I dealt with were fantastic. |>

I know that it's not a Rolex, Tag or Omega, but I really enjoy it for what it is.


----------



## bjp

Vanno said:


> This was a very interesting read.
> 
> I recently bought a MSAR with the maple leaf bracelet and couldn't be happier. I am just starting out my watch collection (Orange Monster, Tissot PRC200, green 6900 G-Shock...) and after reading reviews on the GSAR and MSAR I needed to have one.
> 
> I work for the Federal Government in Canada so I was lucky enough to order the watch directly from Marathon. The people I dealt with were fantastic. |>
> 
> *I know that it's not a Rolex, Tag or Omega, but I really enjoy it for what it is.*


and what it is is an awesome, good-looking, tough, reliable watch that you'll enjoy for a long time!

cheers,

ben


----------



## pacman_

Interesting thread. Just chanced upon Marathon watches while searching the internets. I have a question though. Since tritium is a radioactive substance (not to mention the watches are made under contract for the US Government), would it be particularly difficult to have the watch shipped out overseas?


----------



## Ray C

They definitly do sell direct to Military and Police force members. I've bought from them twice by calling direct. There are also several retailers that are authorized to sell to anyone. Specifically I just bought two MSARs from a unit kitshop out of Gagetown New Brunswick. The kit shop didn't have the item in stock, but I was able to order through them. The kitshop, being a retail outfit sells to civilians too.


----------



## tallguy

pacman_ said:


> Interesting thread. Just chanced upon Marathon watches while searching the internets. I have a question though. Since tritium is a radioactive substance (not to mention the watches are made under contract for the US Government), would it be particularly difficult to have the watch shipped out overseas?


Check out Chris at Windy City Watches


----------



## heyman8

Interesting read guys...I was going to post the question about the background of Marathon SAR watches and what the deal was about being issued to government employees, but got my answer here. Thankfully the search function saved me from certain noob embarassment!


----------



## David Woo

Some history on Marathon:
http://www.marathonwatch.com/about_marathon
The firm that builds the watches for Marathon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallet_%26_Co.


----------



## Darvis

This thread was a great read. Although I own more SKXs than anything, my sans-cyclops SAR on Marathon's SS bracelet (with maple leaf buckle) makes me smile everytime I wear it. 

Don't sweat the details, it's one great watch no matter what its pedigree.


----------



## outatime

I just pulled the trigger on a GSAR from CountyComm. I've been wanting one ever since seeing it in a GSA catalog.

The Marathon watches seem to be the only deal that the government services get. All the other products in the GSA catalog seem to be way over priced.

I tried to make the purchase through GSA; they are about half the price of CountryComm, but they can only be purchased with a Government Credit card.

Another issue is that if the watch was originally purchased through GSA, the warranty cannot be transfered.

This makes me wonder if some of the Marathon watches on the "bay" are hot and perhaps taken out of a supply room somewhere or never turned in by a military member.

http://www.countycomm.com/announcement.htm

Now that I've have had my GSAR for a little over a week, I'll give my impressions of the watch. The watch is a good match for my 7.75" wrist. Its size is about the same as a Seiko Diver, Rolex SUB or a DOXA 1200. 
The bezel is easy to rotate and on mine, the triangle lines up at 12:00 perfectly. The band that came with the watch is the most comfortable rubber watch band I have ever worn. 
The tritium gas vials are very bright and stay bright for many hours. I also like the orange tritium at the 12:00 position.The only fault that I could find with the watch is that the lume on the second hand is not adequate for a dive watch. See ISO 6425. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resistant_mark A dive watch should have an indication that the watch is running (This is usually indicated by a running second hand with a luminous tip or tail.

All in all I like the watch and it would only be better if I could have bought it through GSA.​


----------



## jimmy jones

caffeinated said:


> This is all true. I got my GSAR free. But I had to sign a hand receipt for it. That's an accounting document that allows the supply sergeant to show where a piece of equipment is or who has responsibility for it. When I leave the unit, I may have to return the watch or be charged for it. The watch cost the Army $300, so I will probably pay for it so I can keep it. There is a chance, however, that they commander will decide that I can just keep the watch, it's really his call on an item of personal issue like that.
> 
> Everything issued in the Army is one of three categories. Expendable, Durable and Non-expendable. Expendable items are like toilet paper, batteries, motor oil, things that are consumed in use. Durable items are things that can be used over and over for a period of time, like a pair of gloves, a sleeping bag or coveralls. Non-expendable items are things that can reasonably be expected to last indefinately if cared for properly, like trucks, tanks, generators and weapons.
> 
> The little Marathon navigator that costs the Army $30 is considered expendable (because it's plastic) and we didn't hand reciept them to the troops. Although I've got a list of the Soldiers in my platoon who were issued one. But that's because I require my troops to wear a watch so they have no excuse for being late. This is one of the reasons I asked supply to order watches.
> 
> The GSAR is a durable item, and as such, could be something that must be turned in when the Soldier leaves the unit, like a kevlar helmet (actually called ACH now.) Or it could be permanently issued like a pair of gloves or ballistic protective eyeglasses. In our case, I'm pretty sure we are keeping the watches. Mainly because my commander listens to me and the other senior NCO's.


Its actually kind of humorous you go to war and all you get is a damned watch out of the deal.by the way Thank you and youre troops for youre outstanding service to the country oh yeah and tell supply in my opinion you guys should be issue Rolexs!!


----------



## bjp

outatime said:


> The tritium gas vials are very bright and stay bright for many hours. I also like the orange tritium at the 12:00 position.The only fault that I could find with the watch is that the lume on the second hand is not adequate for a dive watch. See ISO 6425. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resistant_mark A dive watch should have an indication that the watch is running (This is usually indicated by a running second hand with a luminous tip or tail.
> ​


unless the newest contract of GSARs are different from all other SARs, the seconds-hand *does* have a luminous tip. every one I've ever had or seen did.

-ben


----------



## outatime

bjp said:


> unless the newest contract of GSARs are different from all other SARs, the seconds-hand *does* have a luminous tip. every one I've ever had or seen did.
> 
> -ben


My GSAR does have lume on the tip of the second hand, but it's too small. On Seikos and Doxas the lumed area on the second hand is much larger much and thus easier to see.


----------



## Outta Time

Ok, I know this is a stale thread, but just so no one gets the wrong idea here, Marathon watches are indeed for sale to the public, Retail and Wholesale, and of course there are specific watches that are Gov't contract that may not be available for various reasons. You can buy them online, and also through AD's. I don't know who 'Withthesword' was talking to, but anyone can buy a Marathon watch. As a retailer, we looked at carrying Marathon a few years ago, and decided it might be a little too narrow a public appeal for a brick and mortar store in a small area. A customer of mine recently purchased a Swiss Automatic Marathon, and it was extremely well built. I see that currently there are watches with US Govt dial markings as well as USMC available. This company is a Canadian success story, and here is the company History:
"_The company that was to become Marathon Watch was founded in 1904 as Weinsturm Watch, later to be named Wein Brothers. In 1939 Morris Wein founded Marathon Watch in Montreal, supplying fine precision timepieces to retailers throughout North America. In 1941 Marathon began manufacturing timing instruments for the Allied Forces. Marathon's tradition continues today with its fourth generation manufacturing fine quality innovative instruments measuring time, temperature and distance. Marathon's manufacturing facilities include Switzerland, Canada, and the USA!"

_


----------



## sefrcoko

Outta Time said:


> Ok, I know this is a stale thread, but just so no one gets the wrong idea here, Marathon watches are indeed for sale to the public, Retail and Wholesale, and of course there are specific watches that are Gov't contract that may not be available for various reasons. You can buy them online, and also through AD's. I don't know who 'Withthesword' was talking to, but anyone can buy a Marathon watch. As a retailer, we looked at carrying Marathon a few years ago, and decided it might be a little too narrow a public appeal for a brick and mortar store in a small area. A customer of mine recently purchased a Swiss Automatic Marathon, and it was extremely well built. I see that currently there are watches with US Govt dial markings as well as USMC available. This company is a Canadian success story, and here is the company History:
> "_The company that was to become Marathon Watch was founded in 1904 as Weinsturm Watch, later to be named Wein Brothers. In 1939 Morris Wein founded Marathon Watch in Montreal, supplying fine precision timepieces to retailers throughout North America. In 1941 Marathon began manufacturing timing instruments for the Allied Forces. Marathon's tradition continues today with its fourth generation manufacturing fine quality innovative instruments measuring time, temperature and distance. Marathon's manufacturing facilities include Switzerland, Canada, and the USA!"
> 
> _


Thanks for the post, spot on! Just received my tsar a few weeks ago. Ordered directly from Marathon. Fantastic watch


----------



## T. Wong

My midi Tsar at 36mm on a Bund..
inside by orchid by blingmeister, on Flickr


----------



## Matt Sutton

They have an NSN and are available in the GSA catalog, but units purchase them for issue. It's not something standard to all units. I purchased one while on active duty in the Marines. I found that they were garbage. The stem is particularly vunerable to breakage, and hand winding sometimes caused the stem to bind and break. It has happened to me twice, and others who I know who owned a GSAR. The tritium vials are great, and the case looks bullet proof, but has a high profile that causes the watch to collide with nearby hard objects. The ETA 2824-2 movement is considered a workhorse in the dive watch family, but the GSAR has a problem with the rotor being obstructed from spinning freely within the case. I recommend a CWC Diver or even a G-10.


----------



## sefrcoko

Matt Sutton said:


> They have an NSN and are available in the GSA catalog, but units purchase them for issue. It's not something standard to all units. I purchased one while on active duty in the Marines. I found that they were garbage. The stem is particularly vunerable to breakage, and hand winding sometimes caused the stem to bind and break. It has happened to me twice, and others who I know who owned a GSAR. The tritium vials are great, and the case looks bullet proof, but has a high profile that causes the watch to collide with nearby hard objects. The ETA 2824-2 movement is considered a workhorse in the dive watch family, but the GSAR has a problem with the rotor being obstructed from spinning freely within the case. I recommend a CWC Diver or even a G-10.


Good info, thanks for sharing! I owned a gsar for about a week or so but ultimately exchanged it for a tsar. The gsar was nice but simply too heavy for my liking. In contrast, the tsar is just a bit lighter but it makes all the difference for me. Been running strong ever since. Definitely been a solid watch for me so far


----------



## Ciaran75

Love my JSAR


----------



## Matt Sutton

I think the TSAR is the practical quartz option. Much more reliable. How well does your TSAR keep time?


----------



## Camguy

The TSAR has an ETA F06.111, a bog-standard module from their next-to-cheapest "Trendline" series, but it must be tuned perfectly to body temperature. Mine keeps absolutely spot-on time when I'm wearing it, runs about +1 sec./day when it cools off in the box.

Navigator's have the same movement and the increase in rate happens more abruptly without all that nice warm steel keeping it toasty a little longer.longer. Once again, however, precise on the wrist.

What's a post without pics?


----------



## sefrcoko

Matt Sutton said:


> I think the TSAR is the practical quartz option. Much more reliable. How well does your TSAR keep time?





Camguy said:


> The TSAR has an ETA F06.111, a bog-standard module from their next-to-cheapest "Trendline" series, but it must be tuned perfectly to body temperature. Mine keeps absolutely spot-on time when I'm wearing it, runs about +1 sec./day when it cools off in the box.
> 
> Navigator's have the same movement and the increase in rate happens more abruptly without all that nice warm steel keeping it toasty a little longer.longer. Once again, however, precise on the wrist.
> 
> What's a post without pics?
> 
> View attachment 8293818
> 
> 
> View attachment 8293890


Interesting, I have different results with my tsar... I've only had it for a month and wore it maybe 3-4 times since receiving it. When I'm not wearing it, it stays in my watch box at room temperature with the dial up. After setting it to atomic time on May 6, it has only gained 4 seconds in the 27 days days I've owned it. At this rate, it will gain just under 1 minute per year... Very happy with the timekeeping so far


----------



## yankeexpress

Newer versions of the GSAR 41mm have 15 Tritium tubes including on sweep second hand. Sapphire crystal, drilled lugs, an ETA 2824-2 movement.


----------



## Zynec

I absolutely love my Navigator. So simple, so light and deadly accurate. I've had it for almost 1 month and it is running at -0.5sec. I wear it all day and leave it face up on the dresser at night. Crazy accurate, and the tritium is superb.


----------



## T. Wong

Just got this used JSAR and installed a leather strap. I own the midsized 36mm Tsar and the regular 41mm Tsar. Love them! These 300M watches are best bang for the buck IMO. I also have a Omega Bond quartz which gets some wrist time.
on rail long view by blingmeister, on Flickr


----------



## tsteph12

T. Wong said:


> Just got this used JSAR and installed a leather strap. I own the midsized 36mm Tsar and the regular 41mm Tsar. Love them! These 300M watches are best bang for the buck IMO. I also have a Omega Bond quartz which gets some wrist time.
> on rail long view by blingmeister, on Flickr


Looks great on your wrist. I regret selling my JSAR years ago. Seeing yours makes me wonder why I flipped such a super tool diver watch.


----------



## yankeexpress

MSAR (maple leaf JSAR) on squeezed 24mm Helberg strap




























This is a very large watch, probably my biggest, very thick too. The ultimate tool watch, nothing subtle or refined about it, covered in machine and brush marks. No apologies for its toolishness. Rough knurled crown. Loud bezel clicks. Drilled lugs. A reliable quartz bruiser. Have the maple leaf bracelet still wrapped in plastic packaging. This Helberg cross-stitch is super comfy.


----------



## David Woo

yankeexpress said:


> MSAR (maple leaf JSAR) on squeezed 24mm Helberg strap


actual msars seem to be getting a bit scarce around here: shoulda held onto mine.


----------



## T. Wong

tsteph12 said:


> Looks great on your wrist. I regret selling my JSAR years ago. Seeing yours makes me wonder why I flipped such a super tool diver watch.


Well, we all go through cycles of buying, selling, buying.....
The Jsar is getting testing time on the wrist. But so far, I really like the larger dial for quick reading! My old eyes appreciates big dials haaha!


----------



## T. Wong

yankeexpress said:


> MSAR (maple leaf JSAR) on squeezed 24mm Helberg strap
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very large watch, probably my biggest, very thick too. The ultimate tool watch, nothing subtle or refined about it, covered in machine and brush marks. No apologies for its toolishness. Rough knurled crown. Loud bezel clicks. Drilled lugs. A reliable quartz bruiser. Have the maple leaf bracelet still wrapped in plastic packaging. This Helberg cross-stitch is super comfy.


I like the maple leaf logo! Since I'm Canadian  They no longer are made, right? I just got the Jsar II on OEM strap, but have installed a thicker leather strap.


----------



## sefrcoko

I wish they made a smaller version with the Maple Leaf logo on the dial . At least I have the Maple Leaf bracelet for my tsar!


----------



## T. Wong

sefrcoko said:


> I wish they made a smaller version with the Maple Leaf logo on the dial . At least I have the Maple Leaf bracelet for my tsar!


Me too....since I am a Canuck! haha! I had thought to get the maple leaf bracelet for my new Jsar....hmmmmmm! hahha!

golf range background by blingmeister, on Flickr


----------



## croll326

xghgiun said:


> Ok, you guys gave me alot of info on how these watches get to market; now...do you like the quality; I mean for $2500(CSAR model) is this a first pick for some of you compared to other brands; military or not? Thanks, dogdoc


You get a CSAR on here for $1200-$1500 in great shape.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## David Woo

marathon muster this morning:


----------



## Zynec

Nice collection, especially the rare third one from the left.



David Woo said:


> marathon muster this morning:


----------



## akitadog

My TSAR gains a few seconds each month. That is pretty darn good 
imho. Marathon makes great watches. Currently I have a TSAR for night duties, JSAR for camping etc. Had a JDD but sold it as I prefer quartz watches for accuracy and toughness. I really miss the JDD as I love the Dial layout, day date, and appreciate Tritium in the evenings etc. May have to get another one and keep that one as my only mechanical.

Akitadog, from the WET coast of BC Canada



Matt Sutton said:


> I think the TSAR is the practical quartz option. Much more reliable. How well does your TSAR keep time?


----------



## wongthian2

akitadog said:


> My TSAR gains a few seconds each month. That is pretty darn good
> imho. Marathon makes great watches. Currently I have a TSAR for night duties, JSAR for camping etc. Had a JDD but sold it as I prefer quartz watches for accuracy and toughness. I really miss the JDD as I love the Dial layout, day date, and appreciate Tritium in the evenings etc. May have to get another one and keep that one as my only mechanical.
> 
> Akitadog, from the WET coast of BC Canada


Hi, Akitapooch! I'm from Vancouver too but now residing in Japan. I have come to really like the Marathon line and own 3 of them. The Jsar is the latest and surprisingly the nicest on the wrist! Big indeed but fits fine and the larger dial is quite clear for my aging eyes!
Jsar Indonesian naval ship by blingmeister, on Flickr


----------



## Desastor

I bought a GSAR auto directly from Marathon using their govt discount (which is apparently also used by some sellers as they offer the watch for the same price I bought it for suggesting that there is an additional wholesale price floating around) and am very satisfied w/the feel and function of the watch. One thing that is a little bit inconvenient is it's accuracy as I am not conscious enough to adjust the minute or so that I tend to loose over the course of a week and thus by the end of the month I tend to run late for appointments if I don't "watch" it. I am nevertheless looking for a CSAR right now and would have no problem paying $2500 for an unused watch w/relatively recent build date. I go hard on my watches (i.e., almost never take it off, unless there is a specific work related reason to do so) and never had a problem w/it failing me. My concern is however to buy outside of mortar and brick venues or Amazon. This is not because I feel that everyone is a crook, but rather motivated by my incompetence or ignorance to separate the reputable dealers from the one's that take your money w/the intent to rip you off. I think if you do your research, and I have not done mine comprehensively although have several folks in mind that I would find trustworthy, and avoid the crooks lurking on this and other sites, I don't think you will regret the purchase of that watch. Just be ready to wear something very big and relatively heavy. 

*** It is not my intent to offend any reputable individual that is selling their watch on this website; I am only referring to the dishonest, malfeasant crooks lurking in the anonymous depths of the internet and you know who you are.****


----------



## ZLC1234

I am looking for a Marathon SAR to buy, preferrably with the metal plain bracelet. Would settle for the watch without bracelet.


----------



## TwentiethCenturyFox

Governement issue but I owned ome and was underwhelmed for the money. My seiko's blow it out of the water in terms of design and time keeping ability.


----------



## TwentiethCenturyFox

Governement issue but I owned ome and was underwhelmed for the money. My seiko's blow it out of the water in terms of design and time keeping ability.


----------



## ItnStln

*Re: What is the REAL story on &amp;quot;MARATHON&amp;quot; watches&amp;quot;*

Interesting thread!

What's the difference between the TSAR, JSAR, and the GSAR?


----------



## sefrcoko

*Re: What is the REAL story on &amp;quot;MARATHON&amp;quot; watches&amp;quot;*



ItnStln said:


> Interesting thread!
> 
> What's the difference between the TSAR, JSAR, and the GSAR?


Tsar is a quartz 41mm, gsar is an auto 41mm, and jsar is an auto 46mm. There are some other differences between each model, but those are the main ones. You can always check out Marathon's site for complete specs.


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## catkicker

A little dead thread reviving.
I came across one of these it was in a goodwill shop. Beat to hell but with some TLC it's was brought back to life.
At first I thought it was a fake due to no ser# and date.


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## longstride

Nice find!


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## TraserH3

catkicker said:


> A little dead thread reviving.
> I came across one of these it was in a goodwill shop. Beat to hell but with some TLC it's was brought back to life.
> At first I thought it was a fake due to no ser# and date.
> View attachment 15582097
> View attachment 15582098
> View attachment 15582099


Interesting letter there. How is Countycomm affliated with Marathon watches? Why was their contact info in that letter?


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## drunken-gmt-master

TraserH3 said:


> Interesting letter there. How is Countycomm affliated with Marathon watches? Why was their contact info in that letter?


It's in the last paragraph: "The official distributor for these overrun genuine issue wristwatches . . ."


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## Nico2

When I was in Canada (St John's, NF) I saw one on the wrist of a customs guy who worked on a patrol boat so they are 100% issue watches. As far as numbers that is a hard one to know.



dogdoc97 said:


> Some folks say they are "govt issued" for military use; some sites say that is bunk, they look nice but are they worth the price points that are advertised at? Are they well made? dogdoc:-s


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## Diver Dan

I think a large part of Marathon’s appeal is that they have no polish, or bling to their product. There is little to no marketting hype surrounding the brand. It is purely a tool watch built to dependably meet very specific requirements. Kind of like a commercial utility vehicle vs. an SUV.


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## Bobcat Sig

I'm new to the brand, stumbling on to them in a picture thread posted in the Dive Watch forum. I'm smitten.

I like the newer GSAR and JDD; big, chunky, and the tritium tubes look the business. The ETA movements are known and reliable. But I also see the earlier references for sale, specifically the automatics. And when digging in, I've read some woeful time-keeping rates of +/-30 seconds per day. Is that really the case? What else should I know about the earlier, non-tritium tube models?


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## weirdestwizard

I have a 2013 contact GSAR, not super old but has kept very accurate time. It went in for a service a year ago only as I wanted to stay ahead of any issues. Came back keeping better time. 

I would think so long as it's a 2824 and it has been serviced recently that you shouldn't have to worry.


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## JimmyBoots

You should be fine with time keeping. I have a 2008 contract GSAR that keeps time within +5 spd. 

If I was looking for a GSAR, I would probably try to get a cheaper used example on a bracelet and have it service me right away if it needed it. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bobcat Sig

weirdestwizard said:


> I have a 2013 contact GSAR, not super old but has kept very accurate time. It went in for a service a year ago only as I wanted to stay ahead of any issues. Came back keeping better time.
> 
> I would think so long as it's a 2824 and it has been serviced recently that you shouldn't have to worry.


Thank you. That's good to know.

I'm looking at a 2006 reference and the seller has no service history or time runs... a bit of an unknown.


JimmyBoots said:


> You should be fine with time keeping. I have a 2008 contract GSAR that keeps time within +5 spd.
> 
> If I was looking for a GSAR, I would probably try to get a cheaper used example on a bracelet and have it service me right away if it needed it.


Excellent. Thank you for the data point.

The one in question looks nice, but no bracelet. Nonetheless, I can get that easy enough from Marathon.


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## JimmyBoots

Bobcat Sig said:


> Thank you. That's good to know.
> 
> I'm looking at a 2006 reference and the seller has no service history or time runs... a bit of an unknown.


Ah ok. So I think you are looking for a SAR? The pre GSAR dive watch that was produced until 2005 or 2006.

(Google image) 









The first automatic GSAR's are known as transitional models and have a slightly different dial than the modern ones and use the SAR's second hand.

(My transitional GSAR on the right)









Either way you can't go wrong although you will pay a premium for a SAR as they are getting rare these days.

Good luck.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bobcat Sig

JimmyBoots said:


> Ah ok. So I think you are looking for a SAR? The pre GSAR dive watch that was produced until 2005 or 2006.
> 
> (Google image)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first automatic GSAR's are known as transitional models and have a slightly different dial than the modern ones and use the SAR's second hand.
> 
> (My transitional GSAR on the right)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Either way you can't go wrong although you will pay a premium for a SAR as they are getting rare these days.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, that's correct. Your first picture is of the reference I'm considering. It's stamped with 2005 on the case back, I believe.

And I see what you're saying about the transitional GSAR watches; a neat thing with that seconds hand use.


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## KOB.

sefrcoko said:


> Tsar is a quartz 41mm, gsar is an auto 41mm, and jsar is an auto 46mm. There are some other differences between each model, but those are the main ones. You can always check out Marathon's site for complete specs.


JSAR is quartz (although different quartz movement to the TSAR). JDD is the bigger auto.


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## Dan Pierce

2006 contract SAR w/ custom 12 hour bezel from Jim Madrid, member of the original SAR design team.
dP


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## JimmyBoots

Dan Pierce said:


> 2006 contract SAR w/ custom 12 hour bezel from Jim Madrid, member of the original SAR design team.
> dP
> View attachment 15713213


Nice. I always wanted one of those inserts but missed the boat. I do wish yobokies or another outfit offered a insert for GSARS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Colmustard86

Looks nice


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## Dan Pierce

JimmyBoots said:


> Nice. I always wanted one of those inserts but missed the boat. I do wish yobokies or another outfit offered a insert for GSARS.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks, I was really lucky stumbling on Jim's 2nd short & final run of these 12 hour bezel inserts.
dP


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## icevice

2nd gen Canadian pre SAR Marathon watch with screw down crown. Orange 12 o'clock and seconds hand markers. Only 27 were procured.


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## Pongster

dogdoc97 said:


> Some folks say they are "govt issued" for military use; some sites say that is bunk, they look nice but are they worth the price points that are advertised at? Are they well made? dogdoc:-s


story on marathon watches? It's a looooong story.


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## Colmustard86

icevice said:


> 2nd gen Canadian pre SAR Marathon watch with screw down crown. Orange 12 o'clock and seconds hand markers. Only 27 were procured.
> View attachment 15721500
> View attachment 15721501


Wow!! Thats is very cool!


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## VincentG

My story on Marathon watches is that 15 years later they are impossible to source repair parts for, they won't even offer part numbers for generic replacement parts, they only want to sell new watches.


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## JimmyBoots

It may depend on what you need. If it's a bezel insert or pins and screws you can just email them.

Their service center was very responsive to my inquiries and got some pins and screws out to me with in a week.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VincentG

All I need is a crown and stem, they cannot even give me part numbers, neither were "in house" and they should know the stem part number at minimum. I get the feeling it is not the same ownership/people as in Nov 2003, when my watch was made.


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## JimmyBoots

Marathon is still owned by the Wein family. For crown/stem you will probably have to send in you watch for service, or try Wilson Watch works, I believe they are an authorized service center for Marathon. 

Most of the bigger Swiss companies will not send out certain parts, or will need parts ordered by an authorized service center. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VincentG

JimmyBoots said:


> Marathon is still owned by the Wein family. For crown/stem you will probably have to send in you watch for service, or try Wilson Watch works, I believe they are an authorized service center for Marathon.
> 
> Most of the bigger Swiss companies will not send out certain parts, or will need parts ordered by an authorized service center.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you, I have sent an email to WWW.

Marathon's response was simply that they have no parts available for the watch it is discontinued and no part numbers available.

I will post what the outcome is from Wilson WW, the watch is as new in its brown cardboard box but is missing crown and stem. It is a quartz mvmt and just a push pull crown.


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## VincentG

I received a quick reply from Wilson WW, he cannot help me at all :-( It is my opinion that a 15 year old watch from a reputable company should have at least simple parts availability, crown and stem is pretty basic product support for a watch.


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## Firecrow911

My experience with a GSAR is that in 2019 I inquired about repair parts, particularly a new dial as the trit on this one is spent and I was quote a reasonable $300 all in. Things changed in 2020 when I was ready to pull the trigger and suddenly they had no parts and I would basically send my watch in, pay 90% new price and get basically a new watch. Frig that.

At this point I would consider Marathon to treat their watches as disposable - once they sell the watch, they are uninterested in servicing it beyond the warranty period. If its a movement issue, no problem but new parts like dials, hands case, etc, forget it.

Sad as I am a real fan of the watch and its history but not their service.


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## Burgs

VincentG said:


> I received a quick reply from Wilson WW, he cannot help me at all :-( It is my opinion that a 15 year old watch from a reputable company should have at least simple parts availability, crown and stem is pretty basic product support for a watch.


Unless you're insistent on a signed original crown, a new crown and stem is a cheap and simple fix at any watch repair establishment. I've had several done over the years. Even a new movement isn't usually a big deal.


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## VincentG

Burgs said:


> Unless you're insistent on a signed original crown, a new crown and stem is a cheap and simple fix at any watch repair establishment. I've had several done over the years. Even a new movement isn't usually a big deal.


There is no signed crown, I assumed the stem and crown were generic and could be ordered from a supply house, but that does not seem to be the case, stem yes, crown no. Marathon should have part numbers or something and yet they respond as if they don't even know the watch, they were issued to US troops. I think the military considers them to not be serviceable and no "repair" parts were required.


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## Burgs

Contact Jack Alexyon of Industrial Watch Works. [email protected] or
(919) 426-1873. Jack is a Marathon specialist. Heck of a nice guy. If he can't help you then you have a problem.


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## VincentG

Burgs said:


> Contact Jack Alexyon of Industrial Watch Works. [email protected] or
> (919) 426-1873. Jack is a Marathon specialist. Heck of a nice guy. If he can't help you then you have a problem.


Thank you, I know Jack very well and he was the 1st person I asked, I am considering the watch to simply be a "parts watch" even though it is unworn and simply missing a push/pull crown and stem.


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