# Why are Ball watches so underrated?



## Conrady

So the question is in the title

For quality and sheer bang for you buck I think they are really great; they also include some really interesting/cool complications yet nobody ever really talks about them or they are rarely featured in online reviews/news etc.

I am biased though; owning 2x of their timepieces (legend and Magneto). For myself I like niche/interesting/offbeat watches which initially drew me to Ball; but owning them for a few years now I still cant understand why its only watch aficionados that really know about them.

Probably down to publicity? Small company with a small budget for advertising? Maybe they are just too humble... Anyone have another opinion?


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## jkingrph

I think you are correct. We now have four in the household. I have an Trainmaster Roman, roman numerals, probably the most elegant of any watch I own, an Engineer III Starlight, and a Fireman Glory. I also for Christmas got my wife what is simply listed as a Ladies Automatic, which is almost a perfect match to the larger Glory, the only difference being the position of the date window. We are not into the tactical, diver, or more complicated dials, preferring classic elegant looking watches. and these fit the bill nicely.


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## PilotRuss

I think you’re right. The big marketing budget of Rolex and Omega makes it hard to not know about them. Watch the olympics, golf, or any racing sport and you’ll most likely see one of the big names advertising everywhere. You see Rolex advertising in airports, billboards on highways, and in malls across the US. I’ve never seen a Ball advertisement.

But to be honest most people have never heard of most of the watch brands we equate to being of high quality. The average person probably has never heard of IWC or Zenith or much less Ball. If I asked my wife or a random stranger to name three watch brands they’d probably say Rolex, Michael Kors, and Casio.


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## the_watchmovement

I like that they are under rated. You can get a high quality watch for a great price. You're not paying huge prices just for a name, you actually get a fantastic watch.

I've seen some of their advertisements in Watch magazines, but never in the mainstream.

At the same time, Ball needs to do a better job of communicating with their customers and fans. If you go on Instagram they rarely respond to your comments or DMs, they don't connect with us on this forum. Could you imagine how cool it would be if they did!!

Anyways...those are my thoughts


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## Conrady

Thanks for the replies..!

They are fantastic watches; having handled quite a few more well renowned "luxury" watches i.e TAG, Omega etc I have come to the conclusion that Ball are either on par or not far off from the quality/finishing on those watches. 

Just think it's a shame that they are so overlooked, but again being underrated as they are make them far less pricey then those. Also a quite a bit more unique... You don't often see them in the wild.


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## larkja

PilotRuss said:


> I think you're right. The big marketing budget of Rolex and Omega makes it hard to not know about them. Watch the olympics, golf, or any racing sport and you'll most likely see one of the big names advertising everywhere. You see Rolex advertising in airports, billboards on highways, and in malls across the US. I've never seen a Ball advertisement.
> 
> But to be honest most people have never heard of most of the watch brands we equate to being of high quality. The average person probably has never heard of IWC or Zenith or much less Ball. If I asked my wife or a random stranger to name three watch brands they'd probably say Rolex, Michael Kors, and Casio.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I also think they're underrated, but they would definitely have a hard time branding like Rolex or Omega without being the butt of a lot of jokes. I could just see the billboards or print ads:
"Put a Ball on your wrist." or
"Ball's quality is unsurpassed." or
"With tritium technology, you'll always see your Ball."

I wonder if, in the future, they will slowly rebrand with a different name.


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## PilotRuss

larkja said:


> I also think they're underrated, but they would definitely have a hard time branding like Rolex or Omega without being the butt of a lot of jokes. I could just see the billboards or print ads:
> "Put a Ball on your wrist." or
> "Ball's quality is unsurpassed." or
> "With tritium technology, you'll always see your Ball."
> 
> I wonder if, in the future, they will slowly rebrand with a different name.


I think if I was in the marketing department I'd lean more on their American railroad history rather than slogans like "get a ball on your wrist" type stuff.

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## Alysandir

larkja said:


> I also think they're underrated, but they would definitely have a hard time branding like Rolex or Omega without being the butt of a lot of jokes. I could just see the billboards or print ads:
> "Put a Ball on your wrist." or
> "Ball's quality is unsurpassed." or
> "With tritium technology, you'll always see your Ball."
> 
> I wonder if, in the future, they will slowly rebrand with a different name.


Doubtful. I had the pleasure of meeting Ball USA president, Mr. Jeff Hess, at a meet-n-greet once and he said that some of the best came from Ball employees. Like, "give your wife a new pair of Balls the Christmas." There is also the matter that the Ball name hearkens back to C Webb Ball, who was given the task of regulating time for the railroads back in the late 1800s, so to re-brand would be to ignore the heritage of the entire company.

As for why Ball is "underrated" - and I'm using quotation fingers there because I don't really find them to be underrated relative to cost (for example, I would put Oris above Ball in spite of Ball being more expensive pound for pound), I would say there's a couple of different reasons in play:

1. Ball has stood accused for a very long time now of having too many models and are adding new models in a seemingly endless stream. (Beyond the gas tubes - which come in many different styles, BTW - there is no uniform "Ball aesthetic." That is, Ball's designs are so broad it's hard to tell at a glance a Ball watch for what it is.)

2. Their move to being an online seller. (The crack deal- I mean, watch boutique I deal with was a Ball authorized dealer, so it was never difficult to check out their offerings. But over the last couple of years, Ball has taken to making sweetheart deals direct to the consumer, bypassing the middleman. Needless to say, this move has irritated a number of ADs, to the point where some have dropped Ball as as brand, or at least severely cut back on their showcase. The thing I'm still trying to figure out is, how does Ball expect to get new customers under this online model? They got my contact info from my purchase of my SkindiverII...but how are they marketing to people whose contacts they don't have?)

3. There's a lot of concern about the serviceability of the gas tubes. (This is to say that a lot of Ball owners want to know whether Ball is going to be able to provide fresh tubes when the lumination starts dying. Ball has said they will, but has been light on the details. Unless something has happened that I'm not aware of, this hasn't changed.)

4. Ball has been accused of not truly being a Swiss brand. (I'm not going to get into the details of this; it's elsewhere on this forum if you hunt for it. But it's a possible factor in why they are not given more respect.)

Regards,
Alysandir


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## bmfang

Here in Australia (well more specifically Brisbane), one jewellery chain did have a large billboard with one of the EHC models on it displayed on the main highway, with large exposure to tens of thousands of vehicles every day.

That was about 3 years ago. It obviously has done next to nothing as that same chain is now discounting Ball stock they have by 35% and it looks like they are about to drop the brand here in Queensland.

Another larger chain in their CBD store (my usual AD) has relegated Ball to lower tier display cabinets that are nowhere near eye level or hidden away in a “discount corner”.

They obviously aren’t shifting many units at all and whenever I go in there, many potential customers for Swiss pieces don’t even go to look at Ball but instead head straight to the Tag, Oris, Raymond Weil and Longines display cabinets.

Me thinks the Australian distributor (Avstev) is not really bothering to help stores boost Ball sales anymore in store given how Ball has moved to online/Kickstarter style sales in the last year.


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## kennylorenzo

I also agree that Ball has way too many models and they keep churning out new ones. The replacement for the tritium tubes I'm sure will not be cheap to replace. If the tubes are anything tritium might sights for a firearm, then expect to replace them in 15 years. They should put out a price for replacement of the tubes rather than a nominal fee or something similar that they state.


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## timefleas

Underrated, or simply under the radar, I think has mostly to do with advertising (or lack thereof), as noted above, where they have not done a great deal, relative to other companies, as well as their related marketing approach, which has shifted from actual dealers to online merchandising. Issues such as an overly diluted range of choices I am not sure have to do with much of anything, just makes it more challenging for the buyer who has already recognized the brand, and as for the life of the tritium tube, or the fear of it, this probably does have some impact on the uninitiated, but other threads in this forum have shown that Ball DOES replace tritium tubes, and that other companies do so as well (I had one of my Trainmasters "relumed" and was able to choose the colors I wanted--at a cost of about $20 per tritium tube). And, as also noted, above, I am not all that bothered by Ball flying a bit under the radar, as I do like the eclectic over the ordinary, the unique over the popular, and so forth--when given a choice I usually prefer marching to the beat of a different drummer.


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## NapoleonDynamite

bmfang said:


> Here in Australia (well more specifically Brisbane), one jewellery chain did have a large billboard with one of the EHC models on it displayed on the main highway, with large exposure to tens of thousands of vehicles every day.
> 
> That was about 3 years ago. It obviously has done next to nothing as that same chain is now discounting Ball stock they have by 35% and it looks like they are about to drop the brand here in Queensland.
> 
> Another larger chain in their CBD store (my usual AD) has relegated Ball to lower tier display cabinets that are nowhere near eye level or hidden away in a "discount corner".
> 
> They obviously aren't shifting many units at all and whenever I go in there, many potential customers for Swiss pieces don't even go to look at Ball but instead head straight to the Tag, Oris, Raymond Weil and Longines display cabinets.
> 
> Me thinks the Australian distributor (Avstev) is not really bothering to help stores boost Ball sales anymore in store given how Ball has moved to online/Kickstarter style sales in the last year.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pretty much the same in Melbourne too. One AD bhere had them, and then has cleaned out their Ball watches with mass reductions. Some really good pieces for terrific prices, pity I had no coin at the time.


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## zuckermania

I agree that Ball isn't underrated per se. They make solid watches which compete squarely with mid-priced brands who emphasize value over luxury. Notice that Ball's advertising emphasizes extreme athletes and technical characteristics, not heritage and history. A lot of people see the brand as gimmicky. I personally don't believe you can make a watch with thick tritium tubes that looks anything other than a sports watch. The businessman who wants to buy a Datejust or Aqua Terra probably isn't going for this aesthetic. Also, fair or not, the questions over brand ownership and manufacture still rattle around in my head. All that said, I love the brand!


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## bmfang

NapoleonDynamite said:


> Pretty much the same in Melbourne too. One AD bhere had them, and then has cleaned out their Ball watches with mass reductions. Some really good pieces for terrific prices, pity I had no coin at the time.


It's probably the same chain, Salera's. Their Westfield Garden City store has 35% off MSRP atm. Would like an AeroGMT, but my Casios give me that same functionality for 1/20th the price and are just as tough. I'm saving up for HAQ and servicing of my vintage pieces.

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## Emcphers

They advertise heavily on my Facebook feed! 

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## xherion

Well I did give my Wife a pair of Balls 

I have 2 and she has 2 now, I love the trainmaster series due to the history and I was from Ohio.
Quality wise they are on par with Tag, so they are underrated.

But it’s true I only love their older models, they keep churning out new models which are only slight iterations of old models, this is the move I don’t understand, and I don’t like most of the new models.


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## kmsmd

Totally agree with many of the replies. Based on the images I see online they appear to be great, high quality watches. Never seen one in person though, which makes me hesitate to spend the money.


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## LJ67

I agree with the marketing theory. I have 2, or a pair as we like to say, Fireman DLC Racer and an Engineer II Master Pilot GMT. Love walking into my dark closet in the morning and seeing them guide like a beacon to my case.


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## Nokie

Underated? Maybe? 

But those in the know get a great watch when they buy a Ball, IMHO.


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## Igorek

Lets keep them underrated I don't want Ball to become like Rolex that is way too mainstream.


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## Conrady

To some extent I agree; they do not have a singular design which you can immediately identify as a Ball, but then again many mid-tier brands have this problem.

I have a larger issue with them pushing special/limited editions - if all of them are special editions then none of them are special, right? 

Conversely, the "gimmicky" complications and tritium lume is what draws me to them. I have the Magneto S and the iris that opens and closes is just so awesome; just wish I didn't have to take off the watch to see it!


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## Elkins45

Ball is the only brand of watch I own that I paid much more than $100 for, other than my Bulova Moon Watch. To me they aren't underrated. If I'm going to pay >$500 then by golly I want some tritium!


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## GreatLakesWatch

Poor advertising, exceeding high overlap in models, and unnecessarily confusing online shopping experiences (including all the pre-orders) are just a few of the reasons. But, despite all that, Ball is one of my all-time favorite brands. Rich in history, innovative, and values bordering on thievery. I have owned 4 and still keep one of those in the collection.


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## Dan T.

Conrady said:


> So the question is in the title... Why are Ball watches so underrated?


People who buy Ball are typically people who know what they want, and they know they want a Ball (which, by the way, are wreathed in the lambent flames of wicked badassery...). I don't think the "problem" is being underrated. Ball owners would rate their pieces quite high, so the issue probably isn't one of being overrated. If anything, I'd say Ball is overlooked. But underrated? No.

EDIT: spelling mistakes (not enough alcohol)


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## liangliangyu

I have a ball. Really good looking and wear comfortable. However it is not holding value well. =( 


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## Cocas

Conrady said:


> So the question is in the title
> 
> For quality and sheer bang for you buck I think they are really great; they also include some really interesting/cool complications yet nobody ever really talks about them or they are rarely featured in online reviews/news etc.
> 
> I am biased though; owning 2x of their timepieces (legend and Magneto). For myself I like niche/interesting/offbeat watches which initially drew me to Ball; but owning them for a few years now I still cant understand why its only watch aficionados that really know about them.
> 
> Probably down to publicity? Small company with a small budget for advertising? Maybe they are just too humble... Anyone have another opinion?


It could be its ultimate holding company is a hong kong based company and it has no horological history at all.


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## BillSWPA

GreatLakesWatch said:


> Poor advertising, exceeding high overlap in models, and unnecessarily confusing online shopping experiences (including all the pre-orders) are just a few of the reasons. But, despite all that, Ball is one of my all-time favorite brands. Rich in history, innovative, and values bordering on thievery. I have owned 4 and still keep one of those in the collection.


Very well said.

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## fenderjapan

I'm not sure, but I personally feel like the Trainmaster Eternity is the most attractive Day/Date watch in the "less than a Rolex President" price range.


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## Alansmithee

It's pretty straight forward - you cannot build brand value if you operate like a discount brand.


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## Conrady

Alansmithee said:


> It's pretty straight forward - you cannot build brand value if you operate like a discount brand.


I think you hit the nail on the head there... While I believe the actual watches are far from being a "discount brand" and they punch above their weight they do ultimately operate like one. I saw an advert over the weekend for a Magneto S (admittedly at one of the bigger grey market dealers) for $1095. That is less than a 3rd of actual retail price - imagine at what price the seller got it then!


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## mihai_a380

Regarding the 4th point, Ball has more an American history, so why trying to be Swiss?


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## bmfang

mihai_a380 said:


> Regarding the 4th point, Ball has more an American history, so why trying to be Swiss?


Because they seem to be trying to position themselves as a quasi-luxury brand perhaps?

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## Elkins45

mihai_a380 said:


> Regarding the 4th point, Ball has more an American history, so why trying to be Swiss?


It seems to have worked for Hamilton.

Ball seems to be a brand more for people who buy watches than for people who sell watches.


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## gorkem

Alansmithee said:


> It's pretty straight forward - you cannot build brand value if you operate like a discount brand.


exactly, online sop and retailer price differance is insane


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## BundyBear

gorkem said:


> exactly, online sop and retailer price differance is insane


I believe that demand has dropped off and the move to online pre-order was a way that Ball Watch corporate can get some clarity on the actual demand. Confirmed orders on their website equates to actual sales (give and take a few that drop out). They can then negotiate with suppliers and plan that production run without fear of over supply or under.

It is sad to see what they had to resort to but I understand that in this retail climate, no sales means no more Ball Watch. I don't have all the answers but I really hope that they can weather the upcoming tsunami of micro brands and kick starter campaigns.


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## Njnjcfp88

My first Ball watch. The TM power reserve.. wow , wow, wow! The blue hands ..off- white enamel dial with the vintage looking numerals. Love the watches stance off the comfortable steel bracelet...dressy yet sporty too... can’t wait to see the Trit tubes light up tonight. Whole watch feels rugged and well built. Seems like a great buy for less than a $grand


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## playinwittime

My .02 is that Ball is on par, if not above Oris and I'm a fan of both and have about 5 Balls and 6 Orises. The finishing and polish of many models are way up there. The value in tubes done right and the design of some as dress watches and sport models can be distinct and others overlap well, like Rolex, e.g. StarLight III and Milgauss or white OP. However, yes, Ball's designs follow the Hollywood mantra, if the original was successful, remake it and make lots of sequels. I further agree that the failure to educate/market to the public keeps Ball flying under the radar. If they can sustain it without dropping quality, QC or what CS they have, then I'm personally all for it, if not, then...

Here's one of mine


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## RPF

Ball is, if I remember correctly, a HK-owned company. That's strike one. The revived brands owned by Asians always downplay their ownership because it doesn't help them sell watches. 

That said, I find Ball too single-dimensional with their tritium obsession. Honestly, the tritium look either makes the hands and markers too similar, or too hideous, as in the marrying of high tech with high tradition. Ball watches are on the whole, huge, and unnecessarily chunky for non-dive watches.

Honestly, who really needs tritium if they live in cities? Ball evokes even more of a tool/military feel than luxury, and that is the same problem Sinn faces, even though Sinn also has a dressier range and isn't fixated on one design feature (e.g. hardened cases) like Ball. 

And, what does tritium have to do with the romance of railroads? Accuracy yes, reliability yes, but illumination?


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## paintingtiger

RPF said:


> Ball is, if I remember correctly, a HK-owned company. That's strike one. The revived brands owned by Asians always downplay their ownership because it doesn't help them sell watches.
> 
> That said, I find Ball too single-dimensional with their tritium obsession. Honestly, the tritium look either makes the hands and markers too similar, or too hideous, as in the marrying of high tech with high tradition. Ball watches are on the whole, huge, and unnecessarily chunky for non-dive watches.
> 
> Honestly, who really needs tritium if they live in cities? Ball evokes even more of a tool/military feel than luxury, and that is the same problem Sinn faces, even though Sinn also has a dressier range and isn't fixated on one design feature (e.g. hardened cases) like Ball.
> 
> And, what does tritium have to do with the romance of railroads? Accuracy yes, reliability yes, but illumination?


You have heard of the Trainmaster line right? Also, in the Fireman range there are lots of thin, dressiesh models.


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## gossler

liangliangyu said:


> I have a ball. Really good looking and wear comfortable. However it is not holding value well. =(
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Other than Rolex and very little other exceptions... all watches don't hold their value well.


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## Njnjcfp88

I’m ok with the larger and bulkier look of my Ball TM power reserve. Nearly all of my dress watches are vintage and 33-36 mm. , so the Ball IMO will be that “in between watch”- something dressy and yet can get away with a casual look too.. the tritium glow ( or the tubes) isnt overbearing either.
So I don’t feel it’s distracting from the overall look.


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## wickets

playinwittime said:


> My .02 is that Ball is on par, if not above Oris and I'm a fan of both and have about 5 Balls and 6 Orises. The finishing and polish of many models are way up there. The value in tubes done right and the design of some as dress watches and sport models can be distinct and others overlap well, like Rolex, e.g. StarLight III and Milgauss or white OP.


Starlight 3 is a bit unique for ball.... The distinct difference in hour minute / tubes. Brilliant!!!


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## Triton9

Alansmithee said:


> It's pretty straight forward - you cannot build brand value if you operate like a discount brand.


I dont think its using discount strategy but more of early birds will get the goodies. The pre order online prices are very attractive. You will reap the fruit if u are willing to part the money for few months and wait for it. The sale prices will jerk once once the remaining stock hit the market. Then slowly it might discount some from retail prices but never reach the pre order level.

More are going back to tradition. Build watch base on innovation, new movement and great value for consumers.


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## drm7

The $1000-$3000 price point is VERY crowded, so it takes a lot to stand out. Very strong brands with a ton of marketing behind them, and other brands that own their niches. Swatch group alone has several brands in this range, and the German mid range brands are very strong here too (Sinn, Damasko, Nomos,etc.) Even Seiko, which is a HUGE operation, admitted how tough it is now in the mid-range market, and is putting their money into Grand Seiko. As a small operation, Ball is in a tough spot.

I really like some of the Ball models, but I don't have a lot of $1500-$2000 bullets in my watch collecting gun, so it's a tough choice. Lots of great stuff out there!


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## Conrady

drm7 said:


> The $1000-$3000 price point is VERY crowded, so it takes a lot to stand out. Very strong brands with a ton of marketing behind them, and other brands that own their niches. Swatch group alone has several brands in this range, and the German mid range brands are very strong here too (Sinn, Damasko, Nomos,etc.) Even Seiko, which is a HUGE operation, admitted how tough it is now in the mid-range market, and is putting their money into Grand Seiko. As a small operation, Ball is in a tough spot.
> 
> I really like some of the Ball models, but I don't have a lot of $1500-$2000 bullets in my watch collecting gun, so it's a tough choice. Lots of great stuff out there!


Thou speaketh the truth.

Its really down to publicity and to my mind Ball is one of those companies that either you like them or you don't. They also have a small, but loyal following (myself included). I actually watched a youtube video from watchfinder yesterday where they compare the Ball engineer marvelight to a Longines conquest and a Oris Williams F1. They seem impressed and recommend the watch; good to see guys who handle substantially more high-end timepieces to recommend a Ball watch.

Just out of interest; Does anyone know where they are manufactured? I know they are "swiss made", but where in Switzerland? They don't seem to have some sort of headquarters that google is able to find.


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## excelerater

They are not sold anywhere,they dont advertise if at all so the brand lags behind.
I never even heard of Ball till I joined this forum (as many others) however they look 
super well made and unique.

Id love to add a Ball to my watch box , maybe one day ill meet one in person


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## waruilewi

Conrady said:


> Thou speaketh the truth.
> 
> Its really down to publicity and to my mind Ball is one of those companies that either you like them or you don't. They also have a small, but loyal following (myself included). I actually watched a youtube video from watchfinder yesterday where they compare the Ball engineer marvelight to a Longines conquest and a Oris Williams F1. They seem impressed and recommend the watch; good to see guys who handle substantially more high-end timepieces to recommend a Ball watch.
> 
> Just out of interest; Does anyone know where they are manufactured? I know they are "swiss made", but where in Switzerland? They don't seem to have some sort of headquarters that google is able to find.


It's been a long time since I've been in the Ball forum and I can attest that your inquiry on where exactly Ball watches are manufactured have always been a head scratcher. I've yet to see anyone in the past dozen years post pics of their manufacturing operation but I do remember at one point someone mentioned the contractor who cases Ball watches also did some watches for Tiffany and a few other brands. You'd think a few pics of a factory from the street would be nice. That said, I did visit their HQ in Hong Kong a number of years ago and the people helping me there were very kind and beyond nice considering I dropped by unannounced that one afternoon.


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## jon_huskisson

The large number of models/variations (including some quite frankly ugly ones) dilutes the brand, and a lot of people want to try a watch on before buying (in fact, they want to see them in stores alongside well know luxury brands to legitimize them).

I think Tudor is an interesting comparison. A slab-sided Black Bay case doesn't come close to a Fireman case, but I can try a Tudor on and tell myself it's nearly as good as a Rolex because they're right next to them in the store. And David Beckham wears them.

Also, Tudor focuses on a few models such that releasing a new color variation of one of them once a year seems like a big deal. There's a buzz around whether there will be a new color BB58 announced at Baselworld; in the meantime Ball has released multiple new models each with multiple variations).

I don't want to pay extra for a Ball because a celebrity is paid to wear them, but I would like to see a smaller focused range without as many bad designs.



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## robmellor

I agree Ball watches are much deffinatley underrated, i have looked at them and they have some cracking pieces and they also have there own character. And a good reputation and recognized as a level down from R & O, but only a level i still think they have a good reputation and offer value.


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## Njnjcfp88

Vintage Trainmaster...


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## axinnel

"...wreathed in the lambent flames of wicked badassery..." Love it!!!!


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## axinnel

Njnjcfp88 said:


> My first Ball watch. The TM power reserve.. wow , wow, wow! The blue hands ..off- white enamel dial with the vintage looking numerals. Love the watches stance off the comfortable steel bracelet...dressy yet sporty too... can't wait to see the Trit tubes light up tonight. Whole watch feels rugged and well built. Seems like a great buy for less than a $grand


OMG, so jealous!


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## nfetterly

I want to buy one, almost got on on the sale forum here, but fortunately (or not) I was too slow.

Having not seen many "in the wild" makes it a little difficult, I haven't put alot of effort in it, only been in one store that carried a few models. Quick search, 8 stores in Ohio carry them.


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## BostonWatcher

I've owned several Ball watches over the years, and each an every one has been impressive. The design is polarizing, and I can see why, however, if you like the looks of the watch, IMO, you can find no better value in all of watchdom. 

That being said, they needed to sell more watches and have basically gone direct. Huge, rookie marketing mistake. What they should have done was shore up the brands product direction with a familial ID on at least three series of watches, limited offerings, and invested in PR, marketing and social media campaigns to drive the brand.

What they have done is the beginning of the end for Ball. They could have been huge if they had a real marketing person behind the brand.


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## Njnjcfp88

Yes. I agree. With soooo many watch brands; it’s slready hard to see the forest from the... I’m relatively new to this watch collecting- and I wouldn’t have known about Ball except on here and OF.


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## Brandon34

Views on the fireman storm chaser pro?


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## Igorek

wschofield3 said:


> I've owned several Ball watches over the years, and each an every one has been impressive. The design is polarizing, and I can see why, however, if you like the looks of the watch, IMO, you can find no better value in all of watchdom.
> 
> That being said, they needed to sell more watches and have basically gone direct. Huge, rookie marketing mistake. What they should have done was shore up the brands product direction with a familial ID on at least three series of watches, limited offerings, and invested in PR, marketing and social media campaigns to drive the brand.
> 
> *What they have done is the beginning of the end for Ball*. They could have been huge if they had a real marketing person behind the brand.


Someone will acquire them. Still no reason not to buy them. I will have 3 Ball watches soon.


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## Conrady

Igorek said:


> Someone will acquire them. Still no reason not to buy them. I will have 3 Ball watches soon.


To be honest I am sort of hoping that a bigger conglomerate like Richmont or Swatch acquires them. It will give us peace of mind, but also inject some money and sensibility into their product range. My only worry with that is that they might lose their uniqueness and become a bland copy of the rest.


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## KoolKat

Conrady said:


> To be honest I am sort of hoping that a bigger conglomerate like Richmont or Swatch acquires them. It will give us peace of mind, but also inject some money and sensibility into their product range. My only worry with that is that they might lose their uniqueness and become a bland copy of the rest.


Absolutely. Look at the likes of Blancpain, Longines, and many many others. They used to make great timepieces. Nowadays, under the Swatch umbrella, they are just churning out boring copies of essentially the same commodity marketed under different labels targeting different consumer segments.


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## BostonWatcher

Igorek said:


> Someone will acquire them. Still no reason not to buy them. I will have 3 Ball watches soon.


Since they largely use base ETA movements, save for their in house version, yes, they are easily serviceable and no reason not to buy. My statement was purely as a fan of the brand wishing they had gone about their marketing differently so as to grow said brand appropriately.


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## jacksonpt

Much of what has been said resonates with me. I don't own a Ball. On paper, I love them, but doing a bit of research...

- pricing is all over the board
- no dealers near me, and have never seen a dealer while traveling
- no advertising
- no reputation
- seemingly high product-line turnover
- cumbersome website



I have a tritium-lumed Luminox.
I have a Tag diver that is my every-day lifer.

What I want is the versatility and reliability of my Tag with the lume of my Luminox. That search immediately brought me to Ball. But I'm not apt to take a flier on a $2500 unknown.

I wonder if Ball limits retailers, or if retailers simply aren't trying to carry/sell Ball...


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## VaEagle

I like Ball and just bought my first Ball watch – a Trainmaster Legend. 

There could be “problems/issues” unique to Ball, but I think Balls shares common issues with so many other watch companies not named Rolex, Omega, TAG, Longines, etc. Other fine mid-range brands – all known to produce quality watches – suffer the same lack of name recognition among the general public: like Mido, Eterna, Ebel, Certina, and Zodiac, to name a few. 

First, they are struggling to sell mid-range watches at a time when most people fall into several very different camps that pass on traditional mid-tier watches altogether because they are either:

(a) wearing an Apple watch or other smart watch that is youthful, hip and does so many things – (even millionaires who would once buy the more expensive traditional watches often wear smart watches instead now), or
(b) buying a big-name watch brand to show the world that they can, like Rolex or Piaget (or a fake Rolex or Piaget if they can’t), or 
(c) not all that into watches in a digital age where we see the time every other minute when we look at our smartphones or computer screens. 

And the people in groups A and C, if they are inclined to buy a watch at all, may not care that much about the quality of the watch they wear because it’s a casual, maybe even archaic thing for them. They probably look to fashion brands first or brands a tier below Ball that advertise more – like Tissot, Movado, or Raymond Weil – or even cheaper startups that hit Kickstarter every day and market to them in the only form they respond to - electronically. 

Second, a brand either spends a lot of money to advertise in the US (as well as Europe, Asia, etc.) or they won’t be known much beyond the people who regularly visit watch sites like WUS. 

Third, they are either all-in on a US distribution network (as well as Europe, Asia, etc.) or they will never be seen by many casual watch buyers. I tried very hard to find Ball watches in downtown Washington, DC (not the biggest, but hardly the smallest city in the US), and the one dealer listed on Ball’s list of ADs had about 4 watches off to the side to show me, and was clearly phasing them out.

Ball might have to give up its independence and join one of the bigger umbrella groups like Swatch to address the second and third problems.

In short, a bunch of reasons common to a lot of other brands: a lack of interest in watches by many people; smartwatches stealing millions of sales; no name recognition or small distribution networks compared to brands (both better and worse quality) that spend more on advertising or have bigger footprints because of an umbrella company’s network.


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## Njnjcfp88

Most people buy what they know- or hear about. That includes watches. No one is going to buy a watch off of a Consumer Reports article- like they might a dishwasher. Until I started collecting watches last year- I never ever heard of Ball. Now I own 2 because I know they represent good watch value... My non watch ( collecting) friends and clients wear Rolex, Omega, Breitling Seiko , Apple, Citizen... it’s usually higher end or cheaper ( Seiko is obviously all over the place) ...I never see a Ball.


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## VaEagle

Njnjcfp88 said:


> Most people buy what they know- or hear about. That includes watches. No one is going to buy a watch off of a Consumer Reports article- like they might a dishwasher. Until I started collecting watches last year- I never ever heard of Ball. Now I own 2 because I know they represent good watch value... My non watch ( collecting) friends and clients wear Rolex, Omega, Breitling Seiko , Apple, Citizen... it's usually higher end or cheaper ( Seiko is obviously all over the place) ...I never see a Ball.


Totally agree. Combine the buy-what-you-know (i.e., heavily marketed) crowd, with the vastly expanded affordables range, including daily Kickstarter intros, Ball is at a pricepoint that depends on watch cognoscenti to appreciate the value of a Ball watch. That's a very small percentage of the watch-buying public, and there is ample competition in that small segment too - like Mido, Rado, Eterna, Ebel, etc. A compnay like Longines made it work by becoming a niche piece in an umbrella company. Not sure what Ball does next. I like the brand and would like to see it survive.


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## gossler

I have a broad spectrum collection. From the top tear, Zenith El Primero and a Rolex Datejust... all the way down to a $100 seiko.

I own 5 Balls and im always happy when its their turn in my rotation. 

Its a shame not many people know about them. They are great watches! My oldest is now 11 years old. And I still enjoy looking at it.


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## timefleas

jacksonpt said:


> Much of what has been said resonates with me. I don't own a Ball. On paper, I love them, but doing a bit of research...
> 
> - pricing is all over the board
> - no dealers near me, and have never seen a dealer while traveling
> - no advertising
> - no reputation
> - seemingly high product-line turnover
> - cumbersome website
> ...But I'm not apt to take a flier on a $2500 unknown....


 Pretty odd list. Basically, your issue simply appears to be the fact that there is no Ball AD near you--for me, the same can be said, but I have bought every one online (here, the bay, elsewhere...) and have had no problems with access to their product.

What I do not at all agree with is "no reputation" and "unknown"--yet here you are, writing comments in a Ball forum that has more than 5,000 threads related to Ball in it, and where, with a little search, you will find many thousands more--they actually have quite an excellent reputation world wide, and rank somewhere in the top 20 brands as world wide watch sellers.

I also do not agree that limited sales and marketing is necessarily a bad thing. They do not of course have the numbers commanded by the top five in sales, advertising and so forth, and honestly, that is one of the things I find attractive about Ball--I would prefer buying a watch that flies a bit under the radar as opposed to one that has saturated the market with its presence.


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## the_watchmovement

timefleas said:


> Pretty odd list. Basically, your issue simply appears to be the fact that there is no Ball AD near you--for me, the same can be said, but I have bought every one online (here, the bay, elsewhere...) and have had no problems with access to their product.
> 
> What I do not at all agree with is "no reputation" and "unknown"--yet here you are, writing comments in a Ball forum that has more than 5,000 threads related to Ball in it, and where, with a little search, you will find many thousands more--they actually have quite an excellent reputation world wide, and rank somewhere in the top 20 brands as world wide watch sellers.
> 
> I also do not agree that limited sales and marketing is necessarily a bad thing. They do not of course have the numbers commanded by the top five in sales, advertising and so forth, and honestly, that is one of the things I find attractive about Ball--I would prefer buying a watch that flies a bit under the radar as opposed to one that has saturated the market with its presence.


I love everything you said there. Freaking awesome!!!!


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## Njnjcfp88

Agree...I like the fact that indeed they aren’t a household brand, so to speak. I bought my two Trainmasters via the ‘Bay and C24
( one 70’s vintage and one barely used Power Reserve) ...they are out there. Good examples Not hard to find .. both outstanding time keepers.


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## oshuwah

I'm considering my first ball - but have not pulled the trigger yet. Looking at the AeroGMT II which seems to have a great value proposition when compared to the Rolex GMT Master II


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## PetrosD

VaEagle said:


> I like Ball and just bought my first Ball watch - a Trainmaster Legend.
> 
> There could be "problems/issues" unique to Ball, but I think Balls shares common issues with so many other watch companies not named Rolex, Omega, TAG, Longines, etc. Other fine mid-range brands - all known to produce quality watches - suffer the same lack of name recognition among the general public: like Mido, Eterna, Ebel, Certina, and Zodiac, to name a few.
> 
> First, they are struggling to sell mid-range watches at a time when most people fall into several very different camps that pass on traditional mid-tier watches altogether because they are either:
> 
> (a) wearing an Apple watch or other smart watch that is youthful, hip and does so many things - (even millionaires who would once buy the more expensive traditional watches often wear smart watches instead now), or
> (b) buying a big-name watch brand to show the world that they can, like Rolex or Piaget (or a fake Rolex or Piaget if they can't), or
> (c) not all that into watches in a digital age where we see the time every other minute when we look at our smartphones or computer screens.
> 
> And the people in groups A and C, if they are inclined to buy a watch at all, may not care that much about the quality of the watch they wear because it's a casual, maybe even archaic thing for them. They probably look to fashion brands first or brands a tier below Ball that advertise more - like Tissot, Movado, or Raymond Weil - or even cheaper startups that hit Kickstarter every day and market to them in the only form they respond to - electronically.
> 
> Second, a brand either spends a lot of money to advertise in the US (as well as Europe, Asia, etc.) or they won't be known much beyond the people who regularly visit watch sites like WUS.
> 
> Third, they are either all-in on a US distribution network (as well as Europe, Asia, etc.) or they will never be seen by many casual watch buyers. I tried very hard to find Ball watches in downtown Washington, DC (not the biggest, but hardly the smallest city in the US), and the one dealer listed on Ball's list of ADs had about 4 watches off to the side to show me, and was clearly phasing them out.
> 
> Ball might have to give up its independence and join one of the bigger umbrella groups like Swatch to address the second and third problems.
> 
> In short, a bunch of reasons common to a lot of other brands: a lack of interest in watches by many people; smartwatches stealing millions of sales; no name recognition or small distribution networks compared to brands (both better and worse quality) that spend more on advertising or have bigger footprints because of an umbrella company's network.


If you're in the Washington, DC area, check out Little Treasury Jewelers in Gambrills, MD. They are a Ball AD and the last time I was in their store (around September) they had at least a dozen models on display, and perhaps as many as 20.


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## JackPurcell

I think price is a consideration too. I have a Fireman Enterprise, it was very inexpensive. I went to an AD where the discount was about 35%. I then went online and got almost 60% off. For quality though, they're a nice watch, I like the fit and finish. The lume is amazing of course. The worst part is the clasp, I get a fingernail stuck under the Ball RR logo all the time


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## timefleas

JackPurcell said:


> ...The worst part is the clasp, I get a fingernail stuck under the Ball RR logo all the time


It is not designed to be released by a "prying" method--you should NOT be using your fingernails. Simply turn the watch over, put your thumb slightly under one edge, and your first two fingers under the other edge, under the RR juncture, and pull away--it will release easily. Actually, the clasp is quite good, designed to be minimally intrusive, and is very secure.


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## illition

No idea. I picked this up secondhand for 600USD. Just been overhauled, runs great. For me its the perfect beater that I don't have to worry about at all


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## o_justin

My first Ball was the Fireman Enterprise, which I kinda bought on a whim, and really fell in love with. Beautiful watch, amazing lume. It grew on me over time, that's for sure.








Unfortunately (or fortunately as the case may be), I just sold my Fireman Enterprise to fund my newly purchased Ball Trainmaster Moon Phase. I've been super excited about the Moon Phase since I first saw it. (and I have a thing for blue dials) And while I don't have the FE any longer, I fully plan on reacquiring one in the future.


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## paintingtiger

timefleas said:


> JackPurcell said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...The worst part is the clasp, I get a fingernail stuck under the Ball RR logo all the time
> 
> 
> 
> It is not designed to be released by a "prying" method--you should NOT be using your fingernails. Simply turn the watch over, put your thumb slightly under one edge, and your first two fingers under the other edge, under the RR juncture, and pull away--it will release easily. Actually, the clasp is quite good, designed to be minimally intrusive, and is very secure.
Click to expand...

Exactly right. Never understand why someone would try to pry it off with their fingernails.


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## wickets

Do they do rolex stuff as well?


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## timefleas

wickets said:


> Do they do rolex stuff as well?


Say what?


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## arogle1stus

My aversion to Ball has nothing to do with any quality issues. And if they are underrated or not.
I expect I'm older than most WUSers. Back n tha day, Ball issued it's 1st Quartz RR Grade wristie. 
Underwhelming at the least. Poor seller on the RR I was employed by. WHY? For lack of a better term?
FUGLY. 
But Ball (IMO) has upped it's game since the 1970's. Now an A List watch. Agree?
Ball CEO Oliver Ball was tasked to design an "End All" watch for America's RRs. I deferred to a Bulova
214. Underrated? I think not from what I'm seeing lately. BTW Hamilton's 1st RR wristie, the 505 was
no knock em dead either, in the 70's.

X Traindriver Art


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## centaur

I commented on a guy's Ball in public, and he looked surprised that anybody knew it. My guess would be that their image was originally railroad, which is historic but tough for a lot of people to find a connection to. Branching off to aviation and diving helps, but when other big and historic brands have a marketing budget in a different universe, you can't expect to be given the same attention.


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## Conrady

centaur said:


> I commented on a guy's Ball in public, and he looked surprised that anybody knew it. My guess would be that their image was originally railroad, which is historic but tough for a lot of people to find a connection to. Branching off to aviation and diving helps, but when other big and historic brands have a marketing budget in a different universe, you can't expect to be given the same attention.


I had the same happen to me. I was wearing my magneto and a guy standing in the line behind me noticed it and commented on it... Turns out he was a massive watch aficionado and had up and till then never seen one in the wild. Had quite a good chat after that about his speedy he had on too...

This is a good example of why I like Ball; it flies under the radar for the most part and while its no speedy it garners some respect from people that know them.


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## Kmack190

Not very well known. I like the fact that they are underrated though. I get to enjoy a superb swiss watch at a price that is highly attainable.


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## gorkem

they need a standard pricing policy poor second hand value , poor or no service in some countries, my both ball watch has a speck of dust on dial qc issues , butterfly clasp without microadjust, bezel action not very good

but they are my most accurate watches 1 second off per day, case and bracelet quality is top, lume is the best in business


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## Okapi001

waruilewi said:


> It's been a long time since I've been in the Ball forum and I can attest that your inquiry on where exactly Ball watches are manufactured have always been a head scratcher. I've yet to see anyone in the past dozen years post pics of their manufacturing operation but I do remember at one point someone mentioned the contractor who cases Ball watches also did some watches for Tiffany and a few other brands. You'd think a few pics of a factory from the street would be nice. That said, I did visit their HQ in Hong Kong a number of years ago and the people helping me there were very kind and beyond nice considering I dropped by unannounced that one afternoon.


Answering to the old post, but anyway. Ball's headquarter is in La Chaux-de-Fonds, where at least the final assembly is done. Dials and hands (and perhaps some other parts) are made in China. They share the building with Juvenia, which is also owned by the same holding.






Unfortunaly, Google Street View is not available at that exact location.


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## Okapi001

Kmack190 said:


> Not very well known. I like the fact that they are underrated though. I get to enjoy a superb swiss watch at a price that is highly attainable.


You should try an Ogival;-) A venerable Swiss brand (founded in La Chaux-de-Fonds, 1903). Nowadays just about nobody knows about it, and the few they do probably think it stopped making watches decades ago. And yet, here it is, and making some nice mechanical watches with tritium tubes. It is in fact quite well known in Taiwan and some other Asian countries, like Vietnam, but other than that, a complete unknown.

It's a well known strategy of some Swiss watch brands, to limit distribution (and marketing) to only a few selected countries (which are usually either in Asia or South America).

Interesting piece of trivia: In 1979 Ogival took over bankrupt Ulysse Nardin, selling it in 1983.

Here is my Ogival.


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## timefleas

Okapi001 said:


> You should try an Ogival;-) A venerable Swiss brand (founded in La Chaux-de-Fonds, 1903). Nowadays just about nobody knows about it, and the few they do probably think it stopped making watches decades ago. And yet, here it is, and making some nice mechanical watches with tritium tubes. It is in fact quite well known in Taiwan and some other Asian countries, like Vietnam, but other than that, a complete unknown.
> 
> It's a well known strategy of some Swiss watch brands, to limit distribution (and marketing) to only a few selected countries (which are usually either in Asia or South America).
> 
> Interesting piece of trivia: In 179 Ogival took over bankrupt Ulysse Nardin, selling it in 1983.
> 
> Here is my Ogival.


Did you miss the fact that this is a forum dedicated to Ball watches? Perhaps the Public Forum might enjoy seeing your Ogival?


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## Okapi001

timefleas said:


> Did you miss the fact that this is a forum dedicated to Ball watches? Perhaps the Public Forum might enjoy seeing your Ogival?


Did you miss the fact that even though this is a Ball forum, it is not forbidden to mention other brands? We are discussing underrated status of Ball and I just mentioned an even more underrated brand (similar to Ball because it too uses tritium tubes, which is very rare for Swiss mechanical watches).


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## Stevenpobre

I have been incredibly impressed with Ball’s marketing on Instagram and Facebook. They do a better job than most brands I follow- and their lume shots are ALWAYS amazing.


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## timefleas

Okapi001 said:


> Did you miss the fact that even though this is a Ball forum, it is not forbidden to mention other brands? We are discussing underrated status of Ball and I just mentioned an even more underrated brand (similar to Ball because it too uses tritium tubes, which is very rare for Swiss mechanical watches).


Nice try, but from a logical point of view, it still doesn't wash. No one said anything about being forbidden to talk about other watches if such a discussion has some relevance to the question posed by the OP, but honestly--you tell me, and the rest of us here--how does the introduction of a different brand that happens to have tritium tubes contribute/acknowledge/build on or to the question of "Why are BALL watches so underrated?"--I still fail to see any logical inference that can tie Ogival to the resolution of the question posed in the title of the thread--can you?


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## TexasTee

Plain and simple answer....one of my favorites....and I need more.....


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## Time4Good

It's pretty simple if you take a step back, and consider the macro view. They've had too many models (product lines, actually) being made to too many quality levels sold at too many different price points, trying to be sold in too many ways (in store vs online vs preorder). All of those things make it hard for buyers and the general public to categorize Ball watches. It becomes harder to place them against a comparable, and tough to identify their position in the market. As such, Ball watches trade at a discount relative to their peers. 

Wishy-washy brand identity and poor positioning are what holds back Ball. In watches, that's at the very least an albatross to carry if not a death blow. Watches are largely an emotional purchase, increasingly so over $1,000USD. The higher you go in price, the fewer tangible and practical improvements but people still pay those prices and it's worth it. Image, status, and how a watch makes you feel supports those prices. The big brands know this and that's why they invest so heavily in marketing. They make sure you know what they're about, who buys them, and what they do wearing them. You already know Rolex, Tag, Omega, IWC, Tissot before you even thought about buying one. They're masters at building anticipation, creating a preconceived notion of how they'll make you feel before you set foot in the boutique or AD. And when you are there and the piece is on your wrist...by golly it practically sells itself to the average buyer, the associate just helps move it along. It isn't by accident, it's a well oiled machine, and nobody in the industry is better at this than Rolex.

Compare that to Ball, it's almost always about railroads and tritium tubes, or some other features. Product rather than brand. Their marketing materials are pretty, and someone there is clearly grasping that they need an identity and they came up with this adventurer theme...but it's kind of odd and I'd question if that's enough to pull them out of this identity void. I think this is about as high as Ball can climb simply making a great product without a great brand.

I say all this as an executive who cut his teeth in operations (so it pains me to put marketing on a pedestal!) and is currently waiting for his 3rd Ball watch.


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## LodeRunner

Time4Good said:


> It's pretty simple if you take a step back, and consider the macro view. They've had too many models (product lines, actually) being made to too many quality levels sold at too many different price points, trying to be sold in too many ways (in store vs online vs preorder). All of those things make it hard for buyers and the general public to categorize Ball watches. It becomes harder to place them against a comparable, and tough to identify their position in the market. As such, Ball watches trade at a discount relative to their peers.
> 
> Wishy-washy brand identity and poor positioning are what holds back Ball. [* * *]
> 
> Compare that to Ball, it's almost always about railroads and tritium tubes, or some other features. Product rather than brand. Their marketing materials are pretty, and someone there is clearly grasping that they need an identity and they came up with this adventurer theme...but it's kind of odd and I'd question if that's enough to pull them out of this identity void. I think this is about as high as Ball can climb simply making a great product without a great brand.
> 
> I say all this as an executive who cut his teeth in operations (so it pains me to put marketing on a pedestal!) and is currently waiting for his 3rd Ball watch.


I think this is generally right. As a casual observer, and someone who only recently got into Ball watches, I'd add a few more things I noticed in attempting to learn about this brand (and their not-so-good attempts at branding and advertising):

(1) I think they're hurt by the fact that there really isn't a "flag bearer" Ball watch model, a popular and recognizable watch that the public can use to identify the brand. For example, although Omega makes many lines of watches, everyone knows the Speedmaster.

This is true across almost all successful watch brands -- across all price points, most of them have at least one popular or well-known model or model line. For example, IWC has the pilot, AP has the Royal Oak, JLC has the Reverso, Zenith has the El Primero, Breitling has the Navitimer, Cartier has the Tank, Tag has the Monaco, Bell & Ross has the BR01 (that square watch), Oris has the Aquis, Hamilton has the Khaki, Zodiac has the Sea Wolf, Eterna has the Kontiki, Casio has the G-Shock, and the list goes on and on and on. Some brands are lucky enough to have several popular models/model lines (like Rolex, Seiko, and PP), but you'll find that most successful brands have at least one.

But Ball doesn't seem to have any, at least none that the public would recognize. If you had to pick one model or model line, it would probably be an Engineer, but there are too many models in the Engineer product line with subtle and confusing differences, and the design language across those models is "all over the place," to say the least. They are well-built and great watches (I own one and love it), but the most recognizable model in the Engineer line is probably the one that looks a little too much like the Rolex Datejust 2 or the Rolex Milgauss, to really serve as an effective flag bearer for the Ball brand. They seem to change their designs way too often for any particular one to take hold in the minds of people who aren't already Ball fans.

A flag bearer watch would do wonders for the Ball brand, even if it wasn't their best-seller. It would get people talking about the brand, and being part of people's conversations creates the kind of interest and buzz you need to attract new customers.

(2) I think another big problem that holds them back, as Time4Good points out, is that there are simply too many Ball model lines, and this makes it very difficult for customers to get into the brand and learn about the offerings.

I count nine distinct (yet overlapping) model lines, including the Engineer II, Engineer III, Engineer M, Engineer Master II, Engineer Hydrocarbon, Trainmaster, Conductor, Fireman, and Roadmaster. The names of these lines are not suggestive or helpful in understanding the models within them. For example, what's the difference between Engineer II and III models (or any other Engineer line), or what makes something a "Trainmaster" versus a "Conductor"? I get that they're trying to maintain the railroad theme, but these names tell the customer nothing about what the watches in each product line are about.

As I recently discovered, these product lines create quite an obstacle to learning about Ball watches. You basically have to commit to about an hour of research and clicking on the Ball website (which is awful, by the way), to get even a basic understanding of Ball's confused product lines. There are lots of models within each product line that look just like watches in other lines and have nearly identical specifications.

Compare that with Omega; you don't have to know much about them at all to know that anything labeled "Speedmaster" is a chronometer, anything labeled "Seamaster" is highly water resistant, and anything labeled "DeVille" is elegant and dressy. And you can look at any Omega watch and immediately know the product line to which it belongs, even if you're not that familiar with their products. This is because although Omega has tons of models, many more than Ball, they organize all of them under four readily understandable and clearly differentiated product lines.

I don't think Ball is trying to confuse customers or the public, but they're just not putting much thought into creating a streamlined and comprehensible product line, and it shows. That kind of needless confusion seems like it would be toxic to building brand identity and attracting new customers. It seems like they would greatly benefit by consolidating their various models under a greatly reduced number of clearly-defined product lines.


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