# Sticky  Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3



## EndeavourDK

This is a continuation of the "Q&A Expertise thread; Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2".

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699.html

Q&A Expertise thread part 1 can be found here: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-894887.html


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## EndeavourDK

To kick off this thread; This dial and Housing, is that a legit combination? If not, to which housing belongs this dial ?
The dial has currently Komandirskie hands, but can it be with Amphibian hands too ? ..... (perhaps in a 270 case??)


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## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> To kick in the door; This dial and Housing, is that a legit combination? If not, to which housing belongs this dial ?
> The dial has currently Komandirskie hands, but can it be with Amphibian hands too ? ..... (perhaps in a 270 case??)


As you'll know from looking through the 1993 catalogue this is a type 64 case and I think the 1993 catalogue image is the only reference we have for this particular case, as for whether or not that dial is legit in that case the answer is it might be :think:

But it would also look good in a 270 case and as there's no catalogue image at all for the 270 case nobody could prove it's wrong :-d

1993 catalogue image:


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## EndeavourDK

Sounds good, as I wanted to use the case for the 2000 WW2 commemorative dial I have and possibly the "Vostok" dial for the 270 housing.

The combination of the this 64 case and the dial I have should look like the watch below;

Thank you for your help :-!


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## jimzilla

Alright boy's, I would like to humbly submit my latest acquisition to our esteemed panel of experts on this inaugural first page of........ 
"Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3" :-!


I have not seen a proof of authenticity sticker on the back of a Komanderskie?


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Alright boy's, I would like to humbly submit my latest accusation to our esteemed panel of experts on this inaugural first page of........
> "Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3" :-!
> 
> I have not seen a proof of authenticity sticker on the back of a Komandirskie?


Watch looks good :-! the back will only fit upside down but you've seen that before :-d the box might be from an earlier Vostok as the packaging used in 1994/95 was usually the same as seen with your Dnepr watch.

Here's another sticker 









My guess is that they were put on to prove that the watch was genuine at a time when there were a lot of Chinese fakes around.


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## jimzilla

Thank you Avidfan and I am glad the Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3 is riding again!.|>|>|>


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## jimzilla

I have another one that came today...... :-!
no box no papers.


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Thank you Avidfan and I am glad the Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3 is riding again!.|>|>|>


So am I :-d

Do the papers in the box go with the 1995 Victory watch you posted ? As that's an unknown case type and they could solve the mystery of what case code these cushion cased Vostoks have :think:


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## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alright boy's, I would like to humbly submit my latest accusation to our esteemed panel of experts on this inaugural first page of........
> "Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have not seen a proof of authenticity sticker on the back of a Komandirskie?
> 
> 
> 
> Watch looks good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the back will only fit upside down but you've seen that before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the box might be from an earlier Vostok as the packaging used in 1994/95 was usually the same as seen with your Dnepr watch.
> 
> Here's another sticker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14247675
> 
> 
> My guess is that they were put on to prove that the watch was genuine at a time when there were a lot of Chinese fakes around.
Click to expand...

Here is a similar copy on sale now. Look at the matching bezel.... Do you think they made different combos? Probably.


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## Odessa200

What do you say about this Luch? Does this dial look original? What about the rest? Thanks in advance!


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## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Here is a similar copy on sale now. Look at the matching bezel.... Do you think they made different combos? Probably.


I think Vostok put 1995 Victory dials into almost every case type they had and the bezel shown is well known 

But it's a little bit franken as by this date Vostok were no longer putting serial numbers on their case backs...


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## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a similar copy on sale now. Look at the matching bezel.... Do you think they made different combos? Probably.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Vostok put 1995 Victory dials into almost every case type they had and the bezel shown is well known
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's a little bit franken as by this date Vostok were no longer putting serial numbers on their case backs...
Click to expand...

I see. Frankly speaking I never studied the late post soviet Vostoks. I imagine there was a state of anarch for a few years post 1992 and lots of strange models were actually made by the factory and that would greatly complicate the live of us (collectors). 🙂


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## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> So am I :-d
> 
> Do the papers in the box go with the 1995 Victory watch you posted ? As that's an unknown case type and they could solve the mystery of what case code these cushion cased Vostoks have :think:


I got some pic's of the paperwork


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## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> Here is a similar copy on sale now. Look at the matching bezel.... Do you think they made different combos? Probably.


As comrade Avidfan said, the 1945 - 1995 comes in many different shapes and forms. Here the same bezel, but different dial and a 64 Komandirskie case.
Commemorating the 50 years must have been a big event.


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## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> that would greatly complicate the live of us (collectors). &#55357;&#56898;


And that makes it very intriguing as well; "What turns up next?". (BTW, it wasn't only in that period; https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-1945-2010-wwii-ww2-commemorative-watch-4919945.html)

@Avidfan; very curious what you make out of Jimzilla's papers ......


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I got some pic's of the paperwork


Interesting...looks like Vostok decided to use up some old export passports printed in 1990 in March 1995 :-s not too sure if they go with the watch though unless the case code for these cushion cases was the same whether the crown was at 3 o'clock or 2 o'clock (the case code 33 is well known to be the code for the cushion case with the crown at 2 o'clock) the dial code shown is 054 you would need to see other watches with the same dial and code on the papers to confirm that it's correct. 



EndeavourDK said:


> @Avidfan; very curious of what you make out of Jimzilla's papers......


Confused, but it would be less interesting if everything was known :-d


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## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Interesting...looks like Vostok decided to use up some old export passports printed in 1990 in March 1995 :-s not too sure if they go with the watch though unless the case code for these cushion cases was the same whether the crown was at 3 o'clock or 2 o'clock (the case code 33 is well known to be the code for the cushion case with the crown at 2 o'clock) the dial code shown is 054 you would need to see other watches with the same dial and code on the papers to confirm that it's correct.


The intriguing part here is that the date on the passport (27-03-95) is "correct" and that the watch case is quite similar to the catalogued "33" case with the crown @ 2. It looks like that the passport has an officially printed text, not some hand written numbers, something which should have some validity :think:

So far I couldn't find out if the dial is a 054. It's a well known dial and there must be some papers around. I'll will give it another try today. 
If the dial is a 054, and the fact that the "33" with the crown at 3-o-clock after all those years hasn't been positively identified, it may well be, as you said, that Vostok called the 33-(@2) case and the 33-(@3) case the same :think:

If it can be proven that the dial is a 054, then Jimzilla's passport may be the key to unlock the "33" case mystery ...... 33(@2) and / or the 33(@3) :roll:
The hunt for the dial is on ...... :-d

Fascinating stuff :-!


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## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK, It would explain why the code for this case has remained unidentified for all these years :-d


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## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> What do you say about this Luch? Does this dial look original? What about the rest? Thanks in advance!


Nice one. Looks good to me. Beautiful condition.

From '77 catalog:









That inner dial color is probably the most common one I've seen.


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## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you say about this Luch? Does this dial look original? What about the rest? Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one. Looks good to me. Beautiful condition.
> 
> From '77 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 14249269
> 
> 
> That inner dial color is probably the most common one I've seen.
Click to expand...

Thanks Schurrp! Based on what I know, the stamp on the movement corresponds to that time period (late seventies) so it looks authentic to me. Thanks again.


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## EndeavourDK

Inspired by Jimzilla's nice new watches, I've seen this allegedly new (post-Soviet) watch. I like this "off-center" case and at first glance the watch seems okay. I don't know about the box and I asked the seller if there is a passport to it? ...... awaiting the answer.

The dial appears to have raised numbers. Not sure about the meaning of the symbol (communication division?)

Do the experts see anything which makes you go Hmmm ....... :think:


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## Avidfan

@EndeavourDK; Looks good to me :-! and as you say looks to be for communication divisions, box is far too old for the watch though


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## jimzilla

Had one come in today that needs authentication, well sort of. the dial is in rough shape so I would also like a recommendation of which dial face would have come on this watch so I can swap it out. kind of an oxymoron.
Also, are the cases on thees stainless steel?, thank you in advance.


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## jimzilla

I am leaning toward the grey sub dial face?
What color hands?


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## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> I am leaning toward the grey sub dial face?
> What color hands?


Of course it is entirely up to you what like to do, but since you ask for opinions; I would leave the green sub AS IS. The dial has aging cracks which are very normal. Apart from the aging cracks, the dial seems in very good shape. The hours lume-dots are still perfect and the hands do have matching lume (color). It looks to me that the watch could well be still original as how it left the factory just post-Soviet. The case is a Komandirskie model 34, a chromed copper alloy.
From the three dials on offer, none of them do have "sunburst" and only the Tankist is from the same post-Soviet era, with no "Made in" on the botton of the dial. The other two are from a later era and do have the "Made in Russia" printed on the bottom.
Complimenting the green sub with a green NATO-strap and you have, IMHO, a very nice aged original dial & housing with "tons" of patina which doesn't need any "correction".

Again, it's all up to you and what makes you happy :-!

Pictures of my Green Sub, my dial suffers the same aging cracks but still makes it one of my favorites ;-)


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## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> Of course it is entirely up to you what like to do, but since you ask for opinions; I would leave the green sub AS IS. The dial has aging cracks which are very normal. Apart from the aging cracks, the dial seems in very good shape. The hours lume-dots are still perfect and the hands do have matching lume (color). It looks to me that the watch could well be still original as how it left the factory just post-Soviet. The case is a Komandirskie model 34, a chromed copper alloy.
> From the three dials on offer, none of them do have "sunburst" and only the Tankist is from the same post-Soviet era, with no "Made in" on the botton of the dial. The other two are from a later era and do have the "Made in Russia" printed on the bottom.
> Complimenting the green sub with a green NATO-strap and you have, IMHO, a very nice aged original dial & housing with "tons" of patina which doesn't need any "correction".
> 
> Again, it's all up to you and what makes you happy :-!
> 
> Pictures of my Green Sub, my dial suffers the same aging cracks but still makes it one of my favorites ;-)


Hello Roland I wish you a wonderful day sir. after reading your response I have decided to keep the watch as is. I will take the movement out and clean the crystal from the inside and get the particulate off the dial face and put it back together. The watch is in good shape overall and runs well, 
I have been buying watches to mod but it seems like I am keeping watches to put into rotation to wear :-! are you shocked?
The chrome coating is thick on these, I buffed and buffed and did not go thru! that is why I thought they were stainless steel. Thank you for the heads up Roland. best regards, James. 
I will post a pic when I am done with it.


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## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Hello Roland I wish you a wonderful day sir. after reading your response I have decided to keep the watch as is. I will take the movement out and clean the crystal from the inside and get the particulate off the dial face and put it back together. The watch is in good shape overall and runs well,
> I have been buying watches to mod but it seems like I am keeping watches to put into rotation to wear :-! are you shocked?
> The chrome coating is thick on these, I buffed and buffed and did not go thru! that is why I thought they were stainless steel. Thank you for the heads up Roland. best regards, James.
> I will post a pic when I am done with it.


Initially I did some modding too, but somehow that never brought me a satisfactory / the imagined end result. Now I concentrate mostly on Vostok watches from the Soviet (CCCP) era or from the "transition" era. I try to keep, or make them as close to original as I can get. These watches are still plenty available, but are from a gone-by time which most likely never comes back.

Yes, these older Komandirskie cases (with the big crown) seem to be of (much) higher / tougher quality (plating) than the modern Komandirskie cases (introduced around 2000) with the small crown. I try to avoid the small crown cases.

Looking forward to pictures of your end result ;-)

Have a nice day too


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## jimzilla

My new (old) watch and I are going to have lunch at a Mexican restaurant today with my daughter, as promised here are a couple of pic's of the old boy!!!
Some additional elbow grease paid off as he cleaned up fairly nicely, installed a new case back gasket as well.


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## jimzilla

Thank you Roland for the words of wisdom not to Mod this watch. I originally was strictly modding when I first starting out in this hobby but the culture, quirks and essence of these time pieces are intriguing and growing on me. I also find myself also doing less modding and more restoring thees days. thank you sir.
You saved a classic from being Modded.


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## Eric M

Is this a production Amphibia model? A friend recently sent it to me from the wilds of Uzbekistan.









Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## jimzilla

After I got back from lunch with my daughter I had desert waiting in my mail box!!! I have been waiting for this for 12 weeks plus from ASAP, I think one of his mules died that he uses to carries the watch parts down from the mountainside into the village where the post office is.
Please authenticate this for me. no box or papers. thank you guy's. |>


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> After I got back from lunch with my daughter I had desert waiting in my mail box!!! I have been waiting for this for 12 weeks plus from ASAP, I think one of his mules died that he uses to carries the watch parts down from the mountainside into the village where the post office is.
> Please authenticate this for me. no box or papers. thank you guy's. |>


Looks good to me :-! the lack of lume dots is often seen on late Soviet cadet dials so it's nothing to worry about 

This old thread is worth reading if you're interested in cadets: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/show-me-your-vostok-cadets-juniors-mini-dirskies-1405810.html post #2 features an export version of your dial, the gold hands and lumed second hand with different bezel are just production variants...


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## Avidfan

Eric M said:


> Is this a production Amphibia model? A friend recently sent it to me from the wilds of Uzbekistan.


Here's the 1980 catalogue image:

View attachment 14253457


And here's the example on ill-phill's site: divers6, the slightly different case, paddle/arrow hands and crowns you can find on these are all production variants (IMHO of course)


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## Eric M

Avidfan said:


> Here's the 1980 catalogue image:
> 
> View attachment 14253457
> 
> 
> And here's the example on ill-phill's site: divers6, the slightly different case, paddle/arrow hands and crowns you can find on these are all production variants (IMHO of course)


Perfect. Thanks! I was concerned about the hands. A lot of photos in old threads about these are missing, and the only ones left had arrow hands. I take it that this is one of the earlier Ministry cases/automatic Amphibias? It's definitely a fun watch and a very different experience compared to my 2209 powered watches.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


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## elanschonfeld

*Re: How to spot a fake Russian watch (Raketa, Slava, etc)*

Hi,
I am also new to watch collecting and wanted to start with a Raketa due to my Russian origins. I have found 2 that I like, sold from the website Etsy.
View attachment 14257431
View attachment 14257435

It's cost is about $140.00 (USD)
The other is also a Raketa,

























for a cost of $69.00 (USD).
Could someone plase tell me if these watches are real or fake, and if i should proceed in buying them. Thank you so much!


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## Odessa200

I only see 1 watch above. Copernicus. Looks right but it would be better if you get better photos. With the Soviet watches, there are 2 main things to check (besides whatever watch works or not, etc): 
1) fake replaced dials/hands/crown/etc. Usually easy to spot. 
2) if parts original, do all parts match each other (movement corresponds to the watch, from the right time period, etc)

Obviously it is quite simplified but enough to start. Do you have access to the catalogs? Like this?


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## elanschonfeld

*Re: How to spot a fake Russian watch (Raketa, Slava, etc)*

Broken Link pictures of the first watch are this link 
Etsy: TheSovietWatchery: Soviet Raketa Polar - Rare - Vintage 80s - 24h Dial - Black - Leather Strap


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## Odessa200

elanschonfeld said:


> Broken Link pictures of the first watch are this link
> Etsy: TheSovietWatchery: Soviet Raketa Polar - Rare - Vintage 80s - 24h Dial - Black - Leather Strap


 as far as I know this is a fake/souvenir dial. I would pass buy wait what other people say.


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## Odessa200

Odessa200 said:


> elanschonfeld said:
> 
> 
> 
> Broken Link pictures of the first watch are this link
> Etsy: TheSovietWatchery: Soviet Raketa Polar - Rare - Vintage 80s - 24h Dial - Black - Leather Strap
> 
> 
> 
> as far as I know this is a fake/souvenir dial. I would pass buy wait what other people say.
Click to expand...

Looked at that store. A few real watches (priced way too much). Note: the seller mentions the caliber for them. The rest is fake. No caliber mentioned. Why? Cause these watches have a wrong one. 24 hours dial is not the same as 24 hours watch. Sneaky. You can find these watches with the cheapest 2609 china made caliber (and 24 h fake dial) tor 60$ on ebay. Also note the seller has no reviews... red flags all over!


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## jimzilla

evening comrades, got some watches in the mail today and am in need of authentication by the resident panel of experts, and as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions.
This one said for parts as it doesn't work. watch keeps time but date will not change. other than that it is pretty mint condition. box and papers, no string tag.
I was also wondering if a collectable watch with papers. box, e.t.c. has the hands and lume dots re lumed and is serviced by someone like favinov does it add to the value or does it detract because it is not original any more?


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> evening comrades, got some watches in the mail today and am in need of authentication by the resident panel of experts, and as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions.
> This one said for parts as it doesn't work. watch keeps time but date will not change. other than that it is pretty mint condition. box and papers, no string tag.
> I was also wondering if a collectable watch with papers. box, e.t.c. has the hands and lume dots re lumed and is serviced by someone like favinov does it add to the value or does it detract because it is not original any more?


It's a NOS Komandirskie 341307, but whether to re-lume or not is down to personal preference, for some it will become a more desirable and usable watch, but for other collectors a watch with new lume will be of no interest, it's really up to you to decide


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## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> evening comrades, got some watches in the mail today and am in need of authentication by the resident panel of experts, and as always thank you in advance for your time and opinions.
> This one said for parts as it doesn't work. watch keeps time but date will not change. other than that it is pretty mint condition. box and papers, no string tag.
> I was also wondering if a collectable watch with papers. box, e.t.c. has the hands and lume dots re lumed and is serviced by someone like favinov does it add to the value or does it detract because it is not original any more?
> 
> 
> 
> It's a NOS Komandirskie 341307, but whether to re-lume or not is down to personal preference, for some it will become a more desirable and usable watch, but for other collectors a watch with new lume will be of no interest, it's really up to you to decide
Click to expand...

Agree on Lume. Personally I would pass on relumed Komandirskie. Why? It is not hard to find with original Lume. Can we see what papers say?


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## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> Agree on Lume. Personally I would pass on relumed Komandirskie. Why? It is not hard to find with original Lume. Can we see what papers say?


So to play it safe if I should purchase a very rare Vostok it would be safe not to re lume or have it serviced to preserve the originality of the timepiece, makes sense.

as per your request odessa200 here is the paperwork.


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## Odessa200

Yes, most people buy rare watches for collections. And for that the more original watch is the better. 

Paperwork looks good. Year 1993 matches the absence of ‘made in’. Good buy!


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## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> So to play it safe if I should purchase a very rare Vostok it would be safe not to re lume or have it serviced to preserve the originality of the timepiece, makes sense.
> 
> as per your request odessa200 here is the paperwork.


The model number of your watch is 341307 so you've got the wrong papers...

But you can still get the calendar fixed and the movement serviced, it'll still be NOS


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## jimzilla

Thank's odessa200, I still have to take it apart to see whats up with the date not changing. How important is it to have the string tag with the watch?


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## jimzilla

Yes Avidfan I will and put it proudly into my watch rotation, thank you. :-!


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## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> So to play it safe if I should purchase a very rare Vostok it would be safe not to re lume or have it serviced to preserve the originality of the timepiece, makes sense.
> 
> as per your request odessa200 here is the paperwork.
> 
> 
> 
> The model number of your watch is 341307 so you've got the wrong papers...
> 
> But you can still get the calendar fixed and the movement serviced, it'll still be NOS
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, how the watch of that style supposed to look? Do you have it?

Personally, I would not be surprised, if in 1993, when this watch was sold, the salesperson just reached under the counter, grabbed any box/papers, put it all together and gave to the buyer. No one in USSR/Russia at that time would pay any attention to the watch code in the papers...


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## Avidfan

From the 1993 catalogue:


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## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Out of curiosity, how the watch of that style supposed to look? Do you have it?
> 
> Personally, I would not be surprised, if in 1993, when this watch was sold, the salesperson just reached under the counter, grabbed any box/papers, put it all together and gave to the buyer. No one in USSR/Russia at that time would pay any attention to the watch code in the papers...


Of course it's impossible to know for sure when the papers were switched but the correct passport would have been important to the watch owner at the time as there would have been no chance of a warranty repair with the wrong passport....


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## staggerb

*Re: How to spot a fake Russian watch (Raketa, Slava, etc)*



elanschonfeld said:


> Hi,
> I am also new to watch collecting and wanted to start with a Raketa due to my Russian origins. I have found 2 that I like, sold from the website Etsy.
> View attachment 14257431
> View attachment 14257435
> 
> It's cost is about $140.00 (USD)
> The other is also a Raketa,
> View attachment 14257797
> View attachment 14257801
> View attachment 14257805
> View attachment 14257813
> 
> for a cost of $69.00 (USD).
> Could someone plase tell me if these watches are real or fake, and if i should proceed in buying them. Thank you so much!


I agree that the Copernic looks good. The case, dial, hands, and crown all look good. I can't tell for sure, but from the reflection in the first two photos, it looks like it might have a replacement crystal- it should have a flat topped crystal, and the way that the light is reflected looks peculiar. That may or may not be an issue that concerns you. I would get a movement photo before I bought it; it should have a 2609НП. With that said, the 2609.HA is essentially identical; if you're a stickler for details, make sure to get the НП, but if not, the HA will do the trick

Sent from my SM-J327T1 using Tapatalk


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## schnurrp

*Re: How to spot a fake Russian watch (Raketa, Slava, etc)*



elanschonfeld said:


> Hi,
> I am also new to watch collecting and wanted to start with a Raketa due to my Russian origins. I have found 2 that I like, sold from the website Etsy.
> View attachment 14257431
> View attachment 14257435
> 
> It's cost is about $140.00 (USD)
> The other is also a Raketa,
> View attachment 14257797
> View attachment 14257801
> View attachment 14257805
> View attachment 14257813
> 
> for a cost of $69.00 (USD).
> Could someone plase tell me if these watches are real or fake, and if i should proceed in buying them. Thank you so much!


The obvious items, dial, hands, and case must be there but beyond that the Copernicus had three other distinguishing characteristics that are sometimes absent. The original crystal should be flat with vertical "shoulders", the original crown is cylindrical and knurled, found on no other Raketa, and the movement should be the 2609.НП, a "precision" version of the more common 2609.HA.

I would want to see a movement picture of the subject watch.


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## EndeavourDK

@Jimzilla; 

Agree with comrades above. If & when going through the effort, and pay the price for a NOS or Authentic watch with paper, IMHO it all has to be original; as it left the factory. Any tempering and most likely I would give it a pass. Of course, if the price is low / very good, the watch is rare / desirable and the tempering is reversible ...... :think:
Lume is one of those tell-tails of its age ...... hard to fake and hard/not reversible.

As for the passport; was the full passport clearly shown in the sellers add? When dodgy; often they show only half of it and no crucial numbers shown. If the passport is correct, the seller is often eager to show & to proof. If the passport is only half shown or still nicely wrapped up in the box ....... Hmmm :think: ........ better ask for full proof before buying ;-)

BTW; The WUS software is still playing up. Based upon what I read in this thread, I started writing my "reply". Posting my reply and suddenly more replies showed up, not present before. Kind of upload-delay :-s


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## Chascomm

EndeavourDK said:


> BTW; The WUS software is still playing up. Based upon what I read in this thread, I started writing my "reply". Posting my reply and suddenly more replies showed up, not present before. Kind of upload-delay :-s


No, that was me. I was moving a bunch of 'legit or franken' posts from another thread to this one. Just to keep things tidy.

The problem is that for whatever reason, whenever you post in a thread your post start a new branch, rather than adding to the branch to which you were responding. You're not the only member whose posts behave that way. It can make it difficult to discern the context in a busy thread.


----------



## arkitec

*Frakenstein? Fake?*





















Thanks in advance.


----------



## Chascomm

*Re: Frakenstein? Fake?*

To my eyes, it looks like the hands, dial, case, case back and movement all belong together. I can't quite read what is marked on the ratchet wheel.


----------



## arkitec

Thanks for your thoughts. I can't tell either - looks like "260_ H"? I'm new to watches and was concern because usually the marking I've seen on other braille watches are not on the ratchert wheel. This movement looks very plain as well compared to some other ones that have more text and engravings.


----------



## Chascomm

arkitec said:


> Thanks for your thoughts. I can't tell either - looks like "260_ H"?


The missing digit is the one that will confirm whether any parts were swapped. 2609 is a regular 3-hand movement. 2601 is the 2-hand version for the Braille watch. I don't think there is anything to worry about.


----------



## arkitec

Now that you describe the possibilities... it looks like a 9. If that is still okay and not making it "frakenstein" watch then I will go ahead with purchase  Thank you.


----------



## Chascomm

arkitec said:


> Now that you describe the possibilities... it looks like a 9. If that is still okay and not making it "frakenstein" watch then I will go ahead with purchase  Thank you.


My opinion is to go ahead. Just be aware that the way a Braille watch is used, it is more likely to need to be serviced before use.


----------



## Odessa200

It should be 2601H. This is a very common watch. I would say find a right one.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> It should be 2601H. This is a very common watch. I would say find a right one.


I would agree. It appears to me to have the "1 H" so is the correct movement. The only small question I would have as to whether or not this is the "right one" is why the identification is placed on the winding gear as was done with Russian-era Raketas instead of the main plate as with other soviet-era Raketas. Maybe a "transitional", a designation that solves many problems with the collection of Russian watches.

The 2609 which has a second hand gear (2601 does not) would probably work but maybe some modification would be necessary to fit the minute hand correctly.

Finally, the numbers, of course, are only like "braile" numbers in that they can be sensed by touch. They are not actual "braile" numbers which have a different pattern of bumps for each digit.


----------



## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> @Jimzilla;
> 
> Agree with comrades above. If & when going through the effort, and pay the price for a NOS or Authentic watch with paper, IMHO it all has to be original; as it left the factory. Any tempering and most likely I would give it a pass. Of course, if the price is low / very good, the watch is rare / desirable and the tempering is reversible ...... :think:
> Lume is one of those tell-tails of its age ...... hard to fake and hard/not reversible.
> 
> As for the passport; was the full passport clearly shown in the sellers add? When dodgy; often they show only half of it and no crucial numbers shown. If the passport is correct, the seller is often eager to show & to proof. If the passport is only half shown or still nicely wrapped up in the box ....... Hmmm :think: ........ better ask for full proof before buying ;-)
> 
> BTW; The WUS software is still playing up. Based upon what I read in this thread, I started writing my "reply". Posting my reply and suddenly more replies showed up, not present before. Kind of upload-delay :-s


As always thank you for the information Roland. I was thinking of sending in some of my watches to favinov for re luming and servicing. you wouldnt happen to have a watch that was re lumed so I can see how the lume dots look? I want to see how much fatter they look. thank you.


----------



## arkitec

schnurrp said:


> I would agree. It appears to me to have the "1 H" so is the correct movement. The only small question I would have as to whether or not this is the "right one" is why the identification is placed on the winding gear as was done with Russian-era Raketas instead of the main plate as with other soviet-era Raketas. Maybe a "transitional", a designation that solves many problems with the collection of Russian watches.
> 
> The 2609 which has a second hand gear (2601 does not) would probably work but maybe some modification would be necessary to fit the minute hand correctly.
> 
> Finally, the numbers, of course, are only like "braile" numbers in that they can be sensed by touch. They are not actual "braile" numbers which have a different pattern of bumps for each digit.


What do you all mean by "right one"? I'm mainly interested in this as it is low-cost and would be free shipping since it can be packed with another one I already bought from the sellers. I'm new to watches so I do not want to throw big money on anything yet. Just testing the waters.

So this is a Russian era watch? I also notice other has English on the dial but this one in Russian. I do not know how to identify it has there isn't much info anywhere.


----------



## elanschonfeld

I don't have the catalogs, and am going only off of the one you posted.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> As always thank you for the information Roland. I was thinking of sending in some of my watches to favinov for re luming and servicing. you wouldnt happen to have a watch that was re lumed so I can see how the lume dots look? I want to see how much fatter they look. thank you.


I don't have a Favinov re-lumed dial, but I do have a dial which hour-dots that are lumed by Favinov (or perhaps one can say re-lumedthink, as it must have been a new dial to start of with); https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/wruw-june-2019-2019-a-4965293-43.html#post49238057


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Roland.


----------



## Odessa200

arkitec said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would agree. It appears to me to have the "1 H" so is the correct movement. The only small question I would have as to whether or not this is the "right one" is why the identification is placed on the winding gear as was done with Russian-era Raketas instead of the main plate as with other soviet-era Raketas. Maybe a "transitional", a designation that solves many problems with the collection of Russian watches.
> 
> The 2609 which has a second hand gear (2601 does not) would probably work but maybe some modification would be necessary to fit the minute hand correctly.
> 
> Finally, the numbers, of course, are only like "braile" numbers in that they can be sensed by touch. They are not actual "braile" numbers which have a different pattern of bumps for each digit.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you all mean by "right one"? I'm mainly interested in this as it is low-cost and would be free shipping since it can be packed with another one I already bought from the sellers. I'm new to watches so I do not want to throw big money on anything yet. Just testing the waters.
> 
> So this is a Russian era watch? I also notice other has English on the dial but this one in Russian. I do not know how to identify it has there isn't much info anywhere.
Click to expand...

This watch is older than the movement inside it. Ideally, if you want to get an authentic watch, it not only should have the right type of movement but the movement should be from the same time period. As with many things, for example, movement 2601 (or 2609, etc) had changed a bit. The finishing aspects of the movement. Some minor technological changes, etc. some folks, when buying a watch from Soviet era (before 1992) want the mechanism be made at the same time. It appears this watch has a Russia made movement (post 1992). Does this matter to you? You decide. Does this decrease the value of this watch as a collection watch: most likely a lit of people will say 'yes'. Is the soviet movement better than a russian one: depends. If the old soviet movement was properly serviced it may be better. The russian movements may not that well built (some people will argue with me on this) but they are younger and this makes them better (for the everyday use). I hope this helps.

As far as Cyrillic vs English on the dial: many soviet watches were made for export: English on the dial, backs, movements. Typically you want all the writings on the watch to be done in one language. There are exceptions to this but most watches would be like that: either Cyrillic or English all around. Both versions are fine.


----------



## arkitec

Odessa200 said:


> This watch is older than the movement inside it. Ideally, if you want to get an authentic watch, it not only should have the right type of movement but the movement should be from the same time period. As with many things, for example, movement 2601 (or 2609, etc) had changed a bit. The finishing aspects of the movement. Some minor technological changes, etc. some folks, when buying a watch from Soviet era (before 1992) want the mechanism be made at the same time. It appears this watch has a Russia made movement (post 1992). Does this matter to you? You decide. Does this decrease the value of this watch as a collection watch: most likely a lit of people will say 'yes'. Is the soviet movement better than a russian one: depends. If the old soviet movement was properly serviced it may be better. The russian movements may not that well built (some people will argue with me on this) but they are younger and this makes them better (for the everyday use). I hope this helps.
> 
> As far as Cyrillic vs English on the dial: many soviet watches were made for export: English on the dial, backs, movements. Typically you want all the writings on the watch to be done in one language. There are exceptions to this but most watches would be like that: either Cyrillic or English all around. Both versions are fine.


Very helpful, thank you. I will pass then if the movement and case are different time periods. Authenticity matters to me. Thanks.


----------



## jimzilla

Good evening comrades, I would like to ask you to verify that the paper work I have is correct papers for the watch. please see pics.


----------



## Straight_time

#1 - Case is *469* as per the 1990-91 catalog, the dial is shown on the 1993 catalog in a different case as model (059)*650*, so it must be a match :-!

#2 and #5 - They are a mismatch: *341* is the code for the ordinary Komandirskie case with crown guard, while *306* and *307* stand for the Tank and Paratrooper dials respectively; #5 could also be a franken, as I believe that the Gorbachev dial doesn't belong to such case at all :-(

#3 - Match :-!

#4 - Case is actually 531, but no such reference appears on the 2001 catalog; this wouldn't mean much _per se_ (tons of models didn't make it to the printed pages), but on the same catalog there is evidence, housed in a 420 case, of a dial coded 267 which depicts another paratrooper (or the likes -scans resolution isn't top notch, hard to see the finer details). Not a good sign, I'm afraid :think:


----------



## mariomart

jimzilla said:


> Good evening comrades, I would like to ask you to verify that the paper work I have is correct papers for the watch. please see pics.


I've labelled your pic with what I believe are the correct case Types. This does not mean the dial codes are correct.

I said "Probably CORRECT" on one of them as I noticed that the case finishing on the tips of the extending parts is different to the normal case (the normal case has slightly beveled tips)

Edit: Straight Time was way quicker than me, I was faffing about with the picture.


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Straight_time and mariomart for authenticating the watches. the Gorba watches I just got for the cases and movements. thank you guy's much appreciated.


----------



## arkitec

Hello experts,

Can you verify this please:


----------



## arkitec

Nevermind, looks fake as those hands are not found in any other Luch photos.


----------



## jimzilla

Hey guy's had a couple more watches come in and I need an opinion on there authenticity ..... as always thank you for your time and effort.
Unfortunately there are no papers or boxes, it is a shame there are nice specimens.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Hey guy's had a couple more watches come in and I need an opinion on there authenticity ..... as always thank you for your time and effort.
> Unfortunately there are no papers or boxes, it is a shame there are nice specimens.


Are you buying all Vostoks you can find 🙂. Sorry, cannot help here except to say the watches look very nice


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hey guy's had a couple more watches come in and I need an opinion on there authenticity ..... as always thank you for your time and effort.
> Unfortunately there are no papers or boxes, it is a shame there are nice specimens.


For the first one you should read the last few pages of the Q&A Part 2: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part2-a-4514699-273.html as you can see the 234 dial is shown in a 320 case in the 1990 catalogue but it might be ok in a 020 case and also with that bezel :think: but it's not as shown in the catalogue.

The second one with submarine is a combination of parts often seen but a little controversial as it's a 2409A in a type 34 case :think: but here's the one on ill-phill's site: https://www.netgrafik.ch/submarine4.htm so it might also be ok :think:

And I see you've just posted on the "KOMANDIRSKIE lets see them" thread but I can't see it :-( I think we might need a new version of that thread :-d


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> Are you buying all Vostoks you can find &#55357;&#56898;. Sorry, cannot help here except to say the watches look very nice


YES! I am buying ALL THE VOSTOK'S I am competing with mariomart, I figure if I keep on going this way I should surpass his mighty watch collection in about 22 years!


----------



## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> For the first one you should read the last few pages of the Q&A Part 2: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part2-a-4514699-273.html as you can see the 234 dial is shown in a 320 case in the 1990 catalogue but it might be ok in a 020 case and also with that bezel :think: but it's not as shown in the catalogue.
> 
> The second one with submarine is a combination of parts often seen but a little controversial as it's a 2409A in a type 34 case :think: but here's the one on ill-phill's site: https://www.netgrafik.ch/submarine4.htm so it might also be ok :think:
> 
> And I see you've just posted on the "KOMANDIRSKIE lets see them" thread but I can't see it :-( I think we might need a new version of that thread :-d


Thank you Avidfav, that sucks I thought thees were the real deal. I guess I will have to have my purchases checked out here before hand. Franken or not they are very nice specimens. 
I will still put them into my watch rotation. I do have a 020 case coming in maybe I will swap it into that case? thank you sir |>|>|>

I cannot find my post in the "KOMANDIRSKIE lets see them" as well.


----------



## jimzilla

Hey Avidfan I just saw the sub watch link you sent ......... Looks close enough to me. He has a nice collection!


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Thank you Avidfav, that sucks I thought thees were the real deal. I guess I will have to have my purchases checked out here before hand. Franken or not they are very nice specimens.
> I will still put them into my watch rotation. I do have a 020 case coming in maybe I will swap it into that case? thank you sir |>|>|>
> 
> I cannot find my post in the "KOMANDIRSKIE lets see them" as well.


The white 234 dial looks to be in an 020 case already, if you want it the same as the 1990 catalogue you will need a 320 case.

The second submarine watch might be ok, you see them all the time and I've read on f/10 somewhere that they've also been seen with the correct passports, so it might be one of those strange post-Soviet constructions that is actually legit


----------



## jimzilla

As always thanks for setting me straight, have a good one. :-!


----------



## Odessa200

I bet some of you can name the seller 🙂 is there a way to exclude some sellers from your search results on ebay?


----------



## RussianDiver

Hello, Do you guys think this watch is a franken watch?


----------



## Straight_time

Odessa200 said:


> I bet some of you can name the seller 🙂 is there a way to exclude some sellers from your search results on ebay?


On the left column:

- Click on "More refinements"

- Open the "Seller" tab

- Tick the "Only show items from" box

- Select "Specific sellers (enter sellers' user IDs)"

- Choose "Exclude" from the drop-down menu

- Enter sellers' user IDs

- Click on "Apply"

You're done ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

RussianDiver said:


> Hello, Do you guys think this watch is a franken watch?


Technically speaking, not a franken but a fantasy watch; rather meaningless, though, as a 24hr dial doesn't go well with a 12hr caliber. :think:


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bet some of you can name the seller 🙂 is there a way to exclude some sellers from your search results on ebay?
> 
> 
> 
> On the left column:
> 
> - Click on "More refinements"
> 
> - Open the "Seller" tab
> 
> - Tick the "Only show items from" box
> 
> - Select "Specific sellers (enter sellers' user IDs)"
> 
> - Choose "Exclude" from the drop-down menu
> 
> - Enter sellers' user IDs
> 
> - Click on "Apply"
> 
> You're done
Click to expand...

Thanks! I am using iPhone app and do not see it. Will try the browser and see if the searches stick. 🙂


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> RussianDiver said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello, Do you guys think this watch is a franken watch?
> 
> 
> 
> Technically speaking, not a franken but a fantasy watch; rather meaningless, though, as a 24hr dial doesn't go well with a 12hr caliber.
Click to expand...

Is this an official dial? Looks like made 'at home'. No?


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> Is this an official dial? Looks like made 'at home'. No?


I think I saw that dial face on a small alarm clock, I think it is homemade.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> Is this an official dial? Looks like made 'at home'. No?


One of those dials has been discussed before. Perhaps that may give you a clue ?
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-2-a-4514699-258.html


----------



## jimzilla

Have another purchase I need to have opinionated before purchasing, thank you all in advance, James.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Have another purchase I need to have opinionated before purchasing, thank you all in advance, James.


Photo is very small.... what is inside?


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Have another purchase I need to have opinionated before purchasing, thank you all in advance, James.


It's a franken, looks like a 320/470 Amphibia case with a 180 Komandirskie dial


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> It's a franken, looks like a 320/470 Amphibia case with a 180 Komandirskie dial


:-d :-d :-d


----------



## elanschonfeld

*Re: Is this a real Raketa?*

Real or fake?





















Thanks!


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you guys I wont bid on it. I really like that case style!


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Thank you guys I wont bid on it. I really like that case style!


They're not too hard to find, but they should always have the 2409A movement, separate anti-magnetic shield and Amphibia hands, there are quite a few in the 1990 catalogue to show you what's correct


----------



## Odessa200

elanschonfeld said:


> Real or fake?
> View attachment 14274647
> 
> View attachment 14274649
> 
> View attachment 14274651
> 
> Thanks!


 do you have a side shot?


----------



## schnurrp

*Re: Is this a real Raketa?*

Crown looks a little too flat. All Corpernicus had a special crown not on any other watch. I wouldn't buy one without the right crown.


----------



## jimzilla

I ran across another one, please advise if real deal, thank you. sorry about the pic's


----------



## jimzilla

Here is the papers sorry


----------



## mariomart

jimzilla said:


> Here is the papers sorry


Here ya go :-!

This is 091433 from catalog 1993


----------



## jimzilla

sorry about the pics! So it is the real deal mario,thank you. how have you been? have not talked to you in a while i hope all is well sir. thanks again.


----------



## jimzilla

The bezel is different than the one pictured. is ok?


----------



## EndeavourDK

As far as I'm aware it's a Generalskie. I've two NOS which do have the same bezel:
- https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14275645&thumb=1&d=1560672655
- https://www.watchuseek.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=14275641&thumb=1&d=1561954209

The movement should be an 2416b automatic with "SU" stamped in the automatic winding-bridge. The more modern automatic movements do have "RUS" stamped in it. Sometimes sellers obscure that stamp by leaving the oscillating weight over it ..... :think: From the little thumbnail picture provided it is not to see / to check, but the oscillating weight seems to be in the correct position to check which of the two stamps it has.......
As for shape, the Generalskie case looks like a #34 Komandirskie, but it is bigger. The passport suggest a case & dial number: 091433, which matches with comrade Mariomart catalogue picture. It also suggest in writing, what I think is the serial number: 906 053, but again I can't see from the thumbnail picture whether there is a number on the back-cover (some do, some don't) and to compare that number with the number which is written in the passport.
To me the dial, lume-dots, hands & lume colors do look fine. The date-font, at least the thickness, seems to match my Generalskies.
I'm sure comrade Avidfan and/or other comrades can give you more advice


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I'm sure comrade Avidfan and/or other comrades can give you more advice


From what I can see the watch looks ok and the papers also :-! but we need bigger pictures of the movement and case back to be sure :-d

I've always wondered about the catalogue image of this watch as it has the Russian word for "Anti-magnetic" on the dial, something I thought was only found with stainless steel cases :think:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I've always wondered about the catalogue image of this watch as it has the Russian word for "Anti-magnetic" on the dial, something I thought was only found with stainless steel cases :think:


Very good remark :think:

Could it be that if the dial is made of a magnetic metal and if there is an integral shield in the back-cover; would that not provide a sort a Faraday cage, independent of the surrounding material were the watch-housing is made of :-s
But then again, I seems to me that the Vostok "anti-magnetic" feature is more an attempt in the direction than providing a fully sealed Faraday cage (?). To me it's one of those which make you go Hmmm ..... :-s

The watch in question has, as far I can make up from the picture provided, no Anti-magnetic printed on the dial.......


----------



## jimzilla

As always, thank you very much for your time and opinions. Without you guy's I would have bought even more watches that are not authentic with bogus papers, then again I do have more N.O.S. watches to put into rotation :-! !!!! . 
I did purchase this one, should have this one in a month, maybe?. It did have the rotor covering the "SU" part of the movement so hopefully the movement will be authentic as well.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> It did have the rotor covering the "SU" part of the movement so hopefully the movement will be authentic as well.


What about the serial number on the back-cover? If that matches up with the passport then it all seems pretty "solid" .......

Edit; was the rotor covering the SU stamp? So you couldn't verify or am I reading wrongly ?


----------



## schnurrp

EndeavourDK said:


> Very good remark :think:
> 
> Could it be that if the dial is made of a magnetic metal and if there is an integral shield in the back-cover; would that not provide a sort a Faraday cage, independent of the surrounding material were the watch-housing is made of :-s
> But then again, I seems to me that the Vostok "anti-magnetic" feature is more an attempt in the direction than providing a fully sealed Faraday cage (?). To me it's one of those which make you go Hmmm ..... :-s
> 
> The watch in question has, as far I can make up from the picture provided, no Anti-magnetic printed on the dial.......


No, I believe if such a watch was ever produced the antimagnetic property would be handled the same way the 960s were with a ferrous shield integrated into the case back.









I only know of two soviet watches which were made with shields under the caseback and under the dial, neither were Vostoks. Soviet dials are brass except in very rare examples.

My guess is that the Vostok designers had some fairly common magnetic disturbance in mind and they employed methods until the problem was solved and not beyond to the special magnetic environments requiring the cage.


----------



## EndeavourDK

schnurrp said:


> No, I believe if such a watch was ever produced the antimagnetic property would be handled the same way the 960s were with a ferrous shield integrated into the case back.
> 
> I only know of two soviet watches which were made with shields under the caseback and under the dial, neither were Vostoks. Soviet dials are brass except in very rare examples.
> 
> My guess is that the Vostok designers had some fairly common magnetic disturbance in mind and they employed methods until the problem was solved and not beyond to the special magnetic environments requiring the cage.


Yes, I remember we talked about it not that long ago. Raketa were the ones you are referring to?
Thanks for reiterating ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Can this be right, a Komandirskie dial without hour lume-dots on the dial :think:
I was under the impression that Komandirskies always had lumed hands and lumed dials :roll:


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Can this be right, a Komandirskie dial without hour lume-dots on the dial :think:


Seen quite a few times on NOS items from 1992-93, don't know why :think: but probably the chaos of the time.

And the case back is wrong, that early type "big bird" case back first used around 1995...


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Seen quite a few times on NOS items from 1992-93, don't know why :think: but probably the chaos of the time.
> 
> And the case back is wrong, that early type "big bird" case back first used around 1995...


Thanks Avidfan ;-)

But normally speaking the "statement" that each Komandirskie should have lumed-hands and lumed-dials is a valid one ?
Counts the same for Amphibians?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> But normally speaking the "statement" that each Komandirskie should have lumed-hands and lumed-dials is a valid one ?
> Counts the same for Amphibians?


Normally speaking yes, but it could also be that a lot of these unfinished dials and hands left the factory "unofficially" :-d


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thoughts on this one?









View attachment 14277273


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> Thoughts on this one?
> 
> View attachment 14277271
> 
> 
> View attachment 14277273


Good one. Was looking at as well but a)I already have Start. B) this one has a wrong balance. Should be w/o the shock protection. Depending if you are willing to replace it... But the dial and hands are great as far as I can see.
I am not sure about the winding crown: looks to flat.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I had this little gem come in today ..... prepare yourself to get a wee bit chubbed boys!!! :-!
The part that is really unfortunate is there is no box no papers :-(
I am going to send it off to Favinov to have the lume dots and hand set re lumed. It was supposedly serviced I have not seen one of thees in a #33 Case 
So I am asking our esteemed panel of experts ....... is it real or is it FRANKEN?


----------



## jimzilla

Couple more pic's this thing is pretty.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Odessa200 said:


> Good one. Was looking at as well but a)I already have Start. B) this one has a wrong balance. Should be w/o the shock protection. Depending if you are willing to replace it... But the dial and hands are great as far as I can see.
> I am not sure about the winding crown: looks to flat.


Thanks for the feedback. I always forget to check the balance. Agreed, the dial and hands are as good as I've seen on ebay in the last year or so.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I had this little gem come in today ..... prepare yourself to get a wee bit chubbed boys!!! :
> The part that is really unfortunate is there is no box or papers :-(
> I am going to send it off to Favinov to have the lume dots and hand set re lumed. It was supposedly rerviced I have not seen one of these in a #33 Case
> So I am asking our esteemed panel of experts....... is it real or is it FRANKEN?


Looks good to me :-! as with any dial in a type 33 case the presence of original dial feet will authenticate the watch...


----------



## jimzilla

Cool Avidfan and thank you as always, as i said I will send it to Favinov to repair/relume the face and hands. I may re case it as well. best regards, james.


----------



## jimzilla

Curious,what is the part# of this one?


----------



## Odessa200

Sometime ago I posted a photo of a Zim with an unusual dial. I am not convinced about authenticity and was looking if someone knows anything about it. Today another one like that was sold on ebay. Advertised as from 40s! Personally, if authentic, I would place it as from 70s. Posting mine and what was sold today. Just in case someone has an opinion on it or knows anything 🙂


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> Sometime ago I posted a photo of a Zim with an unusual dial. I am not convinced about authenticity and was looking if someone knows anything about it. Today another one like that was sold on ebay. Advertised as from 40s! Personally, if authentic, I would place it as from 70s. Posting mine and what was sold today. Just in case someone has an opinion on it or knows anything 🙂


I don't know about authenticity but that watch is badass cool!!! |>|>|>


----------



## arkitec

Watch case doesn't have AU marking. Is this faked?









Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Curious,what is the part# of this one?


This dial is shown in the 1990 catalogue as a 334, so the full code for your watch would be 331334


----------



## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> This dial is shown in the 1990 catalogue as a 334, so the full code for your watch would be 331334
> 
> View attachment 14278621


Thank you Avidfan.


----------



## schnurrp

arkitec said:


> Watch case doesn't have AU marking. Is this faked?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk


Not necessarily, in my opinion. For this Raketa? watch case the premium AU20 thickness was rarely used and so no longer a selling point. Occasionally you'll see "AU10" but not consistently, in my experience.

For me, if the rest of the watch checked out, the lack of a gold thickness stamp would not be too important.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> arkitec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Watch case doesn't have AU marking. Is this faked?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ASUS_Z012DC using Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily, in my opinion. For this Raketa? watch case the premium AU20 thickness was rarely used and so no longer a selling point. Occasionally you'll see "AU10" but not consistently, in my experience.
> 
> For me, if the rest of the watch checked out, the lack of a gold thickness stamp would not be too important.
> 
> View attachment 14278633
> 
> 
> View attachment 14278635
Click to expand...

Agree with Schnurrp. Just want to add, look for signs of re-gilding. If the gilding was badly worn down, a very thin re-gilding can be done and that, combined with the original heavy use, I think may result in the Au stamp missing. Signs of the re-gilding? Look for deep scratches (especially where the opening grove for the knife is) that are covered with gold. Cheers.


----------



## arkitec

schnurrp said:


> Not necessarily, in my opinion. For this Raketa? watch case the premium AU20 thickness was rarely used and so no longer a selling point. Occasionally you'll see "AU10" but not consistently, in my experience.
> 
> For me, if the rest of the watch checked out, the lack of a gold thickness stamp would not be too important.





Odessa200 said:


> Agree with Schnurrp. Just want to add, look for signs of re-gilding. If the gilding was badly worn down, a very thin re-gilding can be done and that, combined with the original heavy use, I think may result in the Au stamp missing. Signs of the re-gilding? Look for deep scratches (especially where the opening grove for the knife is) that are covered with gold. Cheers.


What's the reason behind not having the AU stamp if it does not appear to be re-gilded? Is it less than 10AU? Is it not even gold?


----------



## Odessa200

arkitec said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily, in my opinion. For this Raketa? watch case the premium AU20 thickness was rarely used and so no longer a selling point. Occasionally you'll see "AU10" but not consistently, in my experience.
> 
> For me, if the rest of the watch checked out, the lack of a gold thickness stamp would not be too important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Agree with Schnurrp. Just want to add, look for signs of re-gilding. If the gilding was badly worn down, a very thin re-gilding can be done and that, combined with the original heavy use, I think may result in the Au stamp missing. Signs of the re-gilding? Look for deep scratches (especially where the opening grove for the knife is) that are covered with gold. Cheers.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What's the reason behind not having the AU stamp if it does not appear to be re-gilded? Is it less than 10AU? Is it not even gold?
Click to expand...

If we are talking about Soviet watches in 'gold' color than it is Gold. I think only in modern history Russia started making 'non-golds' that are some metals chemically treated or some other ways to produce the gold color.

The thickness varies: old watches from 50-60s will be 20 microns. 70s-80s have 15 and 10 microns. 90s go to 5 and below. These are general rules. If you see Au w/o a number, I think it means Au5.

Why some watches do not have it? Not sure about the reason. Maybe as simple as the machine that was doing stamps broke down but the factory needed to release the watches anyway to make the quota. Just a guess.

I do not think we buy a watch because it has Au stamp or it has Au with a big number. The amount of gold is small and is irrelevant in most cases. The authenticity and the condition of the watch is what drives the value. If you think the watch is authentic, get it even w/o the Au stamp.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Why some watches do not have it? Not sure about the reason. Maybe as simple as the machine that was doing stamps broke down but the factory needed to release the watches anyway to make the quota. Just a guess.


Yes, this is the feel I have for the soviet watch industry. They were capable of creating some real works of art but soviet Russia was not Switzerland and so sometimes the organization suffered and things happened which have no explanation.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why some watches do not have it? Not sure about the reason. Maybe as simple as the machine that was doing stamps broke down but the factory needed to release the watches anyway to make the quota. Just a guess.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is the feel I have for the soviet watch industry. They were capable of creating some real works of art but soviet Russia was not Switzerland and so sometimes the organization suffered and things happened which have no explanation.
Click to expand...

Continuing with this hypothesis, if a pure decorative element was omitted/changed but the factory produced the quota, the leadership of the factory would get a 'slap on the hand' at most. But if the quota was not met, they could lose their jobs. 5 year plan was something you do not treat lightly. Must be done and reported back to the party leadership. And as we know 'the Party is always right!' ? Due to this we probably have extra/unplanned variations of hands/crowns/crystals that happened by chance because the correct parts were not available and the management needed to improvise. It is the most noticeable at the end of the USSR when the country was in disarray and some watches were built from whatever parts that were available at that time.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Today I opened a watch, bought several years ago, and was reminded on this 32 jewels 2416b, sitting in a #92 case Komandirskie, small crown, double headed eagle case-back ......
What do the experts know about this movement ?
Is this a current update to the "standard" 31-jewels 2416b or is the stamping on the bridge done by an over-enthusiastic jewel-counter who got a bit "carried-away" :roll:


----------



## Odessa200

I think Vostok Europe was making 32j. Based on what I see it looks like it but the rotor is from the ‘regular’ vostok. Just a guess.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> I think Vostok Europe was making 32j. Based on what I see it looks like it but the rotor is from the 'regular' vostok. Just a guess.


Some additional info; If I well remember the watch came from a Russian Vostok dealer which I asked for some broken watches which I could fix. At that time I was more interested in fault finding. The watch came in a lot, sold as none-working watches .......
It is therefor unclear whether any tempering was done before I received it ...... ??


----------



## Avidfan

There are quite a few VE movements with 32j, I think you've got the auto-winding bridge from one of those fitted to a regular 2416b. 

Interesting if you bought it new like that....


----------



## Avidfan

Edit to above: Well there's your answer, looks like it was repaired with a VE auto-winding bridge :-d

Still can't edit my posts :-s


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> There are quite a few VE movements with 32j, I think you've got the auto-winding bridge from one of those fitted to a regular 2416b.
> 
> Interesting if you bought it new like that....


Thanks all for your contribution ...... ;-)

Is it known among the experts where this 32nd jewel is situated ?


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Is it known among the experts where this 32nd jewel is situated ?


Hopefully someone will know...

I just found this old thread and it looks like someone got the same on a new watch: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/confusion-about-amphibia-movements-2410282.html


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Hopefully someone will know...
> 
> I just found this old thread and it looks like someone got the same on a new watch: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/confusion-about-amphibia-movements-2410282.html


Very interesting ! That thread is from 2015 and I think that I bought the lot somewhere in 2016. As said, I asked for broken watches or watches with problems which were returned by costumers. What I received were watches in new condition, but some slightly scavenged; crown, back-lid, bezel missing and / or perhaps an oscillating weight ??...... but nothing major. It may well be that the oscillating weight is my own addition (??). Perhaps it is a 32-jewel movement after all and I have to "dig-into-it" to find the extra jewel...... in the hope that it hasn't fallen out :-d 
Also IMHO the stamping looks a bit "amateurish", I thought these VE movements were a bit more like polished-up Vostok Chistopol movements ..... :roll:
All in all, a story worth to dig into a bit deeper 

BTW, included in the lot, for which I paid very little, was also my current 2010 (?) Neptune ;-) 
On hindsight a pretty good deal and perhaps with more nuggets to be found ? b-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

I hadn't seen this "interesting" combination before ..... claimed to be made between 1980-1989. Just like my earlier 2416b with 32 jewels, this 2409 has, according to the (new) dial, 18 jewels 

Something rotten with this German deal :-d


----------



## dutchassasin

EndeavourDK said:


> I hadn't seen this "interesting" combination before ..... claimed to be made between 1980-1989. Just like my earlier 2416b with 32 jewels, this 2409 has, according to the (new) dial, 18 jewels
> 
> Something rotten with this German deal :-d


Yuck


----------



## digdug

Hi all. New to the forum, and new to watches in general. Someone posted a Russian watch they had recently purchased on another forum, and it really intrigued me. Cheap, some history to the vintage watches, and plenty from which to choose really got me interested. I've already got a few on the way! Anyways, I've looked through a ton of watches so far and ran across one on Ebay that was different than anything I've seen so far. Is the dial legitimate? No pics of the mechanism to know what's going on inside. I may request some images of the mechanism if the dial is original. I know the seller is on WUS with mixed reviews.

Well shoot.. won't let me post links or images until my count gets higher. I read through the forum rules and guidelines but no mention of the min post count to post images or links.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Welcome to the forum digdug 

IMHO it looks like a fantasy dial. Most likely made from a dial like the one below, obviously without a date-window. The "B" logo doesn't seem right and there is no "Made in" printed on the bottom of the dial (unless the dial is made in the transition period).
Having said this ...... one never knows for sure, Vostok is always full of surprises ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

@digdug, I would say the dial is legit but there's no way of proving it as such and you won't find it in any catalogues, now as to whether it has always been in a 270 Amphibia case that's also impossible to know as there's very little documentation on these also.

If you like it buy it and don't worry about authenticity too much, you can never be sure about many post-Soviet items from the 1990's.

Also the bezel seems to have had its lume dot restored, this is all IMHO of course


----------



## digdug

@EndeavourDK, @Avidfan - Thanks for the replies! The seller wants $250 for it, so I like it but not for that much. If there's no "Made in USSR" or "Made in Russia", that means there were in a transition period between 1992-95ish, right?


----------



## Odessa200

digdug said:


> @EndeavourDK, @Avidfan - Thanks for the replies! The seller wants $250 for it, so I like it but not for that much. If there's no "Made in USSR" or "Made in Russia", that means there were in a transition period between 1992-95ish, right?


PASS!!!!! ?. This is not a 250$ watch. Not even close.

This is a 'fantasy' or rather made for US tourists/buyers. No photo of the inside should tell you that nothing spectacular is there. Probably Chinese made fake Vostok. There are plenty of good legitimate choices there!

Welcome to the forum ?


----------



## dutchassasin

digdug said:


> Hi all. New to the forum, and new to watches in general. Someone posted a Russian watch they had recently purchased on another forum, and it really intrigued me.


Personally think the dial is legit, i have seen a couple more of them. The asking price is super high, so i agree with Odessa200 to pass.


----------



## Odessa200

I have found the lot (not that many 250$ Vostoks) 🙂. Not timed for accuracy. May need service. No guarantees....

I really doubt this would be a good watch that will serve you....


----------



## EndeavourDK

dutchassasin said:


> Personally think the dial is legit, i have seen a couple more of them.
> .


One learns every day again ! Thanks ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> dutchassasin said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally think the dial is legit, i have seen a couple more of them.
> .
> 
> 
> 
> One learns every day again ! Thanks
Click to expand...

In theory, maybe something like this was released in translation time. A bit strange design for an amphibia watch but this is a matter of taste. Putting the dial aside, no photo of the movement + Not serviced + No guarantee = does not give a cozy feeling about this lot. Sorry.

Digdug, if you are looking for US/Russia or US/Ussr dials: they exist. Raketa and Luch had made several. I am sure you will find a good one for a more reasonable price soon!


----------



## jimzilla

Hello everyone, to my USA counterparts I hope you had a wonderful 4TH of July!
I got a Gorby watch to day and am wondering if it is real........ you know the deal, thank you in advance one and all for the time and effort. thank you, james.
I purchased a few of these when they first hit the market for $45.00 free shipping with box and paper. now they are 50-55 plus shipping. nice for modding. 
If not the correct papers what watch does this paperwork belong to. thanks guys.


----------



## capannelle

in my opinion the clock is correct, but the documents belong to another clock with code 341307.
The 341307 model is this:


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello everyone, to my USA counterparts I hope you had a wonderful 4TH of July!
> I got a Gorby watch to day and am wondering if it is real........ you know the deal, thank you in advance one and all for the time and effort. thank you, james.
> I purchased a few of these when they first hit the market for $45.00 free shipping with box and paper. now they are 50-55 plus shipping. nice for modding.
> If not the correct papers what watch does this paperwork belong to. thanks guys.


If it's got the dial feet intact then it'll be legit, if not then it's been re-cased, but I don't think I've ever seen a legit 2409A in a type 33 case :think:

As comrade capannelle says the passport is for a green VDV paratrooper


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you for your input capannelle.
So this paperwork is correct for this watch?


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> So this paperwork is correct for this watch?


Perfect!


----------



## digdug

Odessa200 said:


> Digdug, if you are looking for US/Russia or US/Ussr dials: they exist. Raketa and Luch had made several. I am sure you will find a good one for a more reasonable price soon!


Thanks for the input! I don't wear watches a whole lot so I'm getting them more as conversation starters. Also want to learn a little about repairing them so I'm starting off with some cheaper ones. I've got a few coming in today that I may post so you all can tell me how poorly I did XD


----------



## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> Perfect!


Good deal, and that is the rectangular plastic box that is correct for that watch as well?


----------



## Odessa200

digdug said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Digdug, if you are looking for US/Russia or US/Ussr dials: they exist. Raketa and Luch had made several. I am sure you will find a good one for a more reasonable price soon!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the input! I don't wear watches a whole lot so I'm getting them more as conversation starters. Also want to learn a little about repairing them so I'm starting off with some cheaper ones. I've got a few coming in today that I may post so you all can tell me how poorly I did XD
Click to expand...

Sure. There are plenty of Russian watches that can be a huge conversation starter!


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Good deal, and that is the rectangular plastic box that is correct for that watch as well?


Not really a box but if you mean the packaging shown in post #156 then yes that's correct too :-!


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Avidfan. spot on as always.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> but I don't think I've ever seen a legit 2409A in a type 33 case :think:


It's those (side) remarks with a great learning value 
The dial seems to lay deep as well ....

Great remark and thanks :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Hello everyone, to my USA counterparts I hope you had a wonderful 4TH of July!
> I got a Gorby watch to day and am wondering if it is real........ you know the deal, thank you in advance one and all for the time and effort. thank you, james.
> I purchased a few of these when they first hit the market for $45.00 free shipping with box and paper. now they are 50-55 plus shipping. nice for modding.
> If not the correct papers what watch does this paperwork belong to. thanks guys.


I found a "Gorby" which looks to me a bit more convincing. The "golden"-hands match the dial numbers and the "golden"-tension ring & bezel compliments both. Also the length of the seconds-hand seems to suite this case better.
Also in Jimzilla's case, what for the "Rule"; Komandirskies supposed to have lumed hands and lumed dials :think:
Perhaps the seller of this watch got a bit carried away with the price (without any papers) for €129.99 + €14.90 shipping ....... but that is just in my humble opinion ;-)


----------



## Djokit

Since I benefited from the advice of f10 members to buy a Raketa Kopernik, I've fallen into the rabbit hole of Raketa watches and their unique soviet-ness. I need more, but I'm too new to vintage watches to make an informed decision by myself. I have a number of questions, I hope someone can help me.

- What's the opinion on samun? I've noticed he used to be a popular and well-regarded seller here, but I noticed he's been banned for a while. Is he trustworthy? He has a few models I like very much.

- I found this model:








Comparing it to the one in this thread, it seems okay to me, it seems to have the correct case/hands/dial combination and uses a 2609.HA movement. The cristal is flat-topped and looks a lot like the one found on real Koperniks.

- Big question concerning the UFO model. This one isn't much discussed around here and I couldn't find a lot of information about it, it's probably less popular than the usual suspects. I've seen them with and without the day-date window and I'm note sure they're all fine. The only exemples I've found in catalogs have no day/date indication.
Regardless, I've got my eyes on three different ones at the moment. First, two white dials:













They use 2628.H and 2609.HA respectively. One thing that strikes me is that the second hand is much longer on the day/date version. The one with the CCCP quality seal looks pristine and doesn't even have deplating on the backside. Is it something to be wary of?







This one uses a 2628.H movement too which seems obvious considering the day/date. It has a flat ring around the dial instead of the teethed ring. 
I'd really appreciate some input on the authenticity, I'm wondering how much of the plentiful Raketa offering is franken. I pretty much gave up on the big zero because the fakes were so low quality even I was able to tell them apart after a few hours reading about them here.


----------



## Odessa200

Djokit said:


> Since I benefited from the advice of f10 members to buy a Raketa Kopernik, I've fallen into the rabbit hole of Raketa watches and their unique soviet-ness. I need more, but I'm too new to vintage watches to make an informed decision by myself. I have a number of questions, I hope someone can help me.
> 
> - What's the opinion on samun? I've noticed he used to be a popular and well-regarded seller here, but I noticed he's been banned for a while. Is he trustworthy? He has a few models I like very much.
> 
> - I found this model:
> View attachment 14288289
> 
> 
> Comparing it to the one in this thread, it seems okay to me, it seems to have the correct case/hands/dial combination and uses a 2609.HA movement. The cristal is flat-topped and looks a lot like the one found on real Koperniks.
> 
> - Big question concerning the UFO model. This one isn't much discussed around here and I couldn't find a lot of information about it, it's probably less popular than the usual suspects. I've seen them with and without the day-date window and I'm note sure they're all fine. The only exemples I've found in catalogs have no day/date indication.
> Regardless, I've got my eyes on three different ones at the moment. First, two white dials:
> View attachment 14288299
> View attachment 14288301
> 
> They use 2628.H and 2609.HA respectively. One thing that strikes me is that the second hand is much longer on the day/date version. The one with the CCCP quality seal looks pristine and doesn't even have deplating on the backside. Is it something to be wary of?
> View attachment 14288319
> 
> This one uses a 2628.H movement too which seems obvious considering the day/date. It has a flat ring around the dial instead of the teethed ring.
> I'd really appreciate some input on the authenticity, I'm wondering how much of the plentiful Raketa offering is franken. I pretty much gave up on the big zero because the fakes were so low quality even I was able to tell them apart after a few hours reading about them here.


All UFOs supposed to have a straight seconds hand that ends before indexes. Last one has it correct. Attaching a few images from catalogs and one of mine. Not sure about the smooth ring: maybe legit. The middle one has gold outside and silver hands/indexes? Again: possible. Look at the catalog: silver body and gold hands. Does not make sense but it is listed in the catalog. Mine is all silver (but not in a catalog). Maybe others will add more.


----------



## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> I found a "Gorby" which looks to me a bit more convincing. The "golden"-hands match the dial numbers and the "golden"-tension ring & bezel compliments both. Also the length of the seconds-hand seems to suite this case better.
> Also in Jimzilla's case, what for the "Rule"; Komandirskies supposed to have lumed hands and lumed dials :think:
> Perhaps the seller of this watch got a bit carried away with the price (without any papers) for €129.99 + €14.90 shipping ....... but that is just in my humble opinion ;-)


Hello Roland, your example of the Gorby watch looks a lot more authentic than mine,plus the dial face is skewed a wee bit as well on mine, but for 45.00 shipped and is being used to mod i would buy a couple more for 45.00 shipped if I could get them. I am actually going to use the hands off my Gorby's and put them into a cadet case, maybe lume them when I get a lume kit.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Hello Roland, your example of the Gorby watch looks a lot more authentic than mine,plus the dial face is skewed a wee bit as well on mine, but for 45.00 shipped and is being used to mod i would buy a couple more for 45.00 shipped if I could get them. I am actually going to use the hands off my Gorby's and put them into a cadet case, maybe lume them when I get a lume kit.


Well, there in nothing wrong with a very good condition #33 Komandirskie (which has still the good plating quality!) case and hopefully a nice 2409 movement inside. One just can't get enough of that stuff :-d :-d :-d
Just bought a box full of NOS Soviet 2414's movements ;-)
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/what-did-you-buy-today-4496907-285.html


----------



## jimzilla

I was thinking of bidding on this ....... Is this the real deal or .... FRANKEN!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vostok-Kom...-Diver-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Watch/264382458619

No box, No papers.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Another question I would like to post to our experts panel;

Do / did the Amphibian watch in a 960 case always have / had an automatic 2416b (with date-window dial) :roll:

Or are there legit cases known with the 2409 / 2414 movement :think:

The earliest I can find is in the 1990 catalogue were the 937 case had already a 2416b, same as in the 1991 catalogue.

The 937 case seems to be the 960 case with a sunburst finish ...... any idea when the "slick" finish 960 case came about ?

Hope to hear ........ ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> I was thinking of bidding on this ....... Is this the real deal or .... FRANKEN!!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vostok-Kom...-Diver-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Watch/264382458619
> 
> No box, No papers.


IMHO, the dial & hands are so new that if you listen closely, you can still hear the noises in the factory .....
The bezel is wrong too, look at the "30".


----------



## dutchassasin

jimzilla said:


> I was thinking of bidding on this ....... Is this the real deal or .... FRANKEN!!!
> No box, No papers.


EndeavourDK is correct, avoid this wristwatch at all cost. Fake dial, fake hands, fake bezel. Yuck!!!


----------



## EndeavourDK

dutchassasin said:


> EndeavourDK is correct, avoid this wristwatch at all cost. Fake dial, fake hands, fake bezel. Yuck!!!


Bedankt :-!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Another question I would like to post to our experts panel;
> 
> Do / did the Amphibian watch in a 960 case always have / had an automatic 2416b (with date-window dial) :roll:
> 
> Or are there legit cases known with the 2409 / 2414 movement :think:
> 
> The earliest I can find is in the 1990 catalogue were the 937 case had already a 2416b, same as in the 1991 catalogue.
> 
> The 937 case seems to be the 960 case with sunburst finish......any idea when the "slick" finish 960 case came about ?


The 960 polished Neptune case is AFAIK post-Soviet and probably from the early 2000's.

The 9370 case is Soviet and as you say is only shown with the 21 jewel 2416b movement in the catalogues.

Any other movement can only be proved with the appropriate passport.

Hopefully another comrade will know more...


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you guy's for the words of wisdom. I will not be bidding on that watch. 
My mail came today and I have one to be opinionated by the resident experts. No box No papers but a low mileage watch none the less. :-(
thank you one and all. |>|>|>


----------



## Avidfan

@jimzilla, Well here's the image from the 1993 catalogue, yours has new hands (lume is too short) and also has a new bezel, the original would have been a "dot-dash" but with lume pip


----------



## jimzilla

I do learn every time I buy a vintage watch! did not now about the length of the minutes hand ...... I am getting closer, looks like another one into the watch rotation.
thank you Avidfan have a good evening. :-!


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> I was thinking of bidding on this ....... Is this the real deal or .... FRANKEN!!!
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vostok-Kom...-Diver-USSR-Soviet-Russian-Watch/264382458619
> 
> No box, No papers.


Thought it may be an idea to post some pictures of the watch comrade Jimzilla asked about. In time the link will cease to exist and a future learning opportunity will be lost.
Answers / opinions can be found a little before this posting ...... ;-)


----------



## Rodwell

Does anyone know if this is an early Buran Chrono, or just made up of parts? It has a blank case back. Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Rodwell said:


> Does anyone know if this is an early Buran Chrono, or just made up of parts? It has a blank case back. Thanks


I am guessing parts. Way too many diff colors. The one with such hands should be with the bezel that does NOT rotate. But this is translation period so who knows....


----------



## Odessa200

somewhat off topic: we frequently disqualify a watch if it has mixed language: English for the brand and Cyrillic for the calendar (and vise versa). Here is from the Slava catalog 🙂 Intentional (meaning they made a set like this) or just a silly mistake? What do you think? Does it make a watch like this legit because it exists in a catalog?


----------



## 24h

Rodwell said:


> Does anyone know if this is an early Buran Chrono, or just made up of parts? It has a blank case back. Thanks


It looks like the dial from a gold Buran (although I don't know, Sturmanskie hands, and something looks off with the outer edge of the subdials (might just be the lighting).
The case looks great though. Would be cool to find a very worn Buran with a perfect dial and combine them to make a better, original watch. 

Edit: I don't know why the subdials are printed in white, they should match the color of the minute track/Buran logo.


----------



## Kotsov

Rodwell said:


> Does anyone know if this is an early Buran Chrono, or just made up of parts? It has a blank case back. Thanks


Irrespective, it looks great


----------



## thewatchadude

Avidfan said:


> The 960 polished Neptune case is AFAIK post-Soviet and probably from the early 2000's.
> 
> The 9370 case is Soviet and as you say is only shown with the 21 jewel 2416b movement in the catalogues.
> 
> Any other movement can only be proved with the appropriate passport.
> 
> Hopefully another comrade will know more...


The 1985 commemorative Oficerskie has a polished case I think. Some date the earliest model from 1984.

Also wondering, how is the case of the Soviet Neptune model?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> The 1985 commemorative Oficerskie has a polished case I think. Some date the earliest model from 1984.
> 
> Also wondering, how is the case of the Soviet Neptune model?


Forgot about 1985 commemorative Oficerskie :-d this old thread is worth reading on these: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/1985-oficerskie-3734498.html


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Forgot about 1985 commemorative Oficerskie :-d this old thread is worth reading on these: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/1985-oficerskie-3734498.html


Interesting observation in this thread in Soviet times; numbered movement, flush case back = pre-1985, "flush" movement, numbered case-back = post-1985.
Would this be for Soviet Amphibians / Komandirskies too :think:


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting observation in this thread in Soviet times; numbered movement, flush case back = pre-1985, "flush" movement, numbered case-back = post-1985.
> Would this be for Soviet Amphibians / Komandirskies too :think:


AFAIK it does  December 1984 and earlier serial number stamped on the main plate under the balance wheel, January 1985 and later serial number stamped on the case back, but as with anything Vostok there are probably exceptions :-d


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> AFAIK it does  December 1984 and earlier serial number stamped on the main plate under the balance wheel, January 1985 and later serial number stamped on the case back, but as with anything Vostok there are probably exceptions :-d


Talking about exceptions; did you read this ? A 960 style case with a 2414 movement ....... :think:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/wruw-july-2013-2013-a-884679-27.html#post6571546


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Talking about exceptions; did you read this ? A 960 style case with a 2414 movement ....... :think:


Don't know what to make of that at all :think:


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Don't know what to make of that at all :think:


That's what keeps it mysteries & exciting


----------



## Kamburov

Avidfan said:


> Don't know what to make of that at all :think:


Exactly my reaction 
Until I see papers ...


----------



## Ramashka99

Hello! 
I got this watch from ebay. Please could somebody tell me if it is real? It came without a box or any papers
It looks fake to me, but I'm bot an expert at all. 
Please let me know what else I should post. 
Thank you


----------



## 24h

Ramashka99 said:


> Hello!
> I got this watch from ebay. Please could somebody tell me if it is real? It came without a box or any papers
> It looks fake to me, but I'm bot an expert at all.
> Please let me know what else I should post.
> Thank you


This is the Russian watch forum ;-)


----------



## stevarad

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



Ramashka99 said:


> Hello!
> I got this watch from ebay. Please could somebody tell me if it is real? It came without a box or any papers
> It looks fake to me, but I'm bot an expert at all.
> Please let me know what else I should post.
> Thank you


Huh, this is russian watches forum, so authorities for swiss watches are somewhere else.

Btw, It looks very fine to me. I can not see why You think it's franken. Classic and elegant omega style from 60s. They had variety of similar designs
Always ask photos of movement and inner part of caseback (where signatures should be) before purchase, and then compare with photos on web.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## SunnyOrange

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



stevarad said:


> Huh, this is russian watches forum, so authorities for swiss watches are somewhere else.
> 
> *Always ask photos of movement and inner part of caseback *(where signatures should be) before purchase, and then compare with photos on web.


This - movement and inner caseback pictures are necessary.

Try on Vintage & Pocket watches forum, there are experts who can help.

The watch is vintage, so it's more suitable for Vintage forum, than for Omega forum.

Regards.


----------



## thewatchadude

EndeavourDK said:


> Talking about exceptions; did you read this ? A 960 style case with a 2414 movement ....... :think:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/wruw-july-2013-2013-a-884679-27.html#post6571546


I have a 9370 case that has always looked suspicious to me though being very close to the legit case. I'm wondering whether it's a case from another brand that has been transformed/altered. I think Slava had some cases looking (somewhat) like this.


----------



## dutchassasin

Ramashka99 said:


> Hello!
> I got this watch from ebay. Please could somebody tell me if it is real? It came without a box or any papers
> It looks fake to me, but I'm bot an expert at all.
> Please let me know what else I should post.
> Thank you


Its a better idea to post it in the omega section and not in the Russian section. There you can get better help, i am not knowledgeable about Omega but my gut feeling says something is off.


----------



## Straight_time

EndeavourDK said:


> Talking about exceptions; did you read this ? A 960 style case with a 2414 movement ....... :think:
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/wruw-july-2013-2013-a-884679-27.html#post6571546


I missed comrade Ham's post at the time (I wasn't even here yet...), but his watch looks suspicious to me... not only because mine is powered by the standard 2416b, but mainly because -as Ham himself noted- the hands of his are Komandirskie style, not Amphibia (most noticeable on the hour hand, and the mandatory meatball is also missing).
Most likely someone swapped a whole set of movement+hands from a donor Kom.

It must be remembered that by 2013 only a handful of Oficierskies had been spotted, and knowledge has greatly increased only recently.


----------



## Ramashka99

Thank you guys


----------



## JC.Auck

Looking at this Pobeda. My knowledge of earlier Soviet watches is lacking but looking through a few catalogues it would seem Pobeda did make a model with blued hands and small seconds (the 802-K references).

However I feel like the below may be a redialed piece. It is also marked 2MChZ instead of 1MChZ but I am not sure if this is incorrect or not as I think 2nd Moscow Factory also made some of these? Could anyone with more knowledge let me know?





















JC


----------



## bpmurray

JC.Auck said:


> Looking at this Pobeda. My knowledge of earlier Soviet watches is lacking but looking through a few catalogues it would seem Pobeda did make a model with blued hands and small seconds (the 802-K references).
> 
> However I feel like the below may be a redialed piece. It is also marked 2MChZ instead of 1MChZ but I am not sure if this is incorrect or not as I think 2nd Moscow Factory also made some of these? Could anyone with more knowledge let me know?
> 
> JC


Looks perfectly fine to me. Second Moscow Watch Factory (2MChZ) indeed made Pobedas of this style. The logo stamp on the movement is also 2MChZ, so matches the dial exactly.

These Pobeda dials were surprisingly resilient, and didn't really suffer from paint loss the way other Soviet watches did.


----------



## schnurrp

Pobeda, Russian for Victory, is not the name of a maker of watches. Several soviet factories including Second Moscow (Slava) made sub-second watches celebrating "Pobeda" or victory as a dial theme. Yours looks fine to me similar to the one pictured below from comrade Dash's collection:


----------



## JC.Auck

bpmurray said:


> Looks perfectly fine to me. Second Moscow Watch Factory (2MChZ) indeed made Pobedas of this style.





schnurrp said:


> Pobeda, Russian for Victory, is not the name of a maker of watches. Several soviet factories including Second Moscow (Slava) made sub-second watches celebrating "Pobeda" or victory as a dial theme. Yours looks fine to me similar to the one pictured below from comrade Dash's collection


Many thanks for both of your confirmations, very helpful. I was also unaware that 'Pobeda' was a theme used by multiple factories rather than a brand name, thanks for letting me learn something new schnurrp!


----------



## schnurrp

Yes, this design with "Pobeda" on the dial and a red "12" was the first conventional sized wrist watch made in the soviet union appearing shortly after the great WWII "Pobeda". This one from 1949 was made at First Moscow Watch Factory:


----------



## EndeavourDK

I took a "calculated" gamble and for me a big leap back in time. This will for sure be the oldest Wostok I ever bought.

The watch was very poorly presented on eBay, just a picture from the side and the back (picture 3 & 4). The dial was not clear to see. Described as “RUNNING BUT TIME SAME”. I asked the seller for some dial pictures and while waiting, the number of "followers" clicked up.
He did sent me two pictures of the dial and the movement (picture 1,2 and 5) and reported that the watch ran, but stopped. 
I found the watch in the 1970 catalogue and decided to buy it.

If possible I would like to know from our expert panel; 

1) Did I totally waste my $18 + $5 shipping on a Franken :-s
2) Just to make sure; the lume is after 1960 and therefor not the radium-lume ?
3) Is there anything correct and if so; what is correct and what not?
4) Would a new crystal still be available somewhere? (If the current crystal is correct at all?)
5) If there are parts which are not correct, are they still somewhere available ?

I'm very curious what comes out of this and if the watch is somewhat correct and worth restoring, it would be a splendid project for me


----------



## bpmurray

EndeavourDK said:


> 1) Did I totally waste my $18 + $5 shipping on a Franken :-s


Looks fine to me. Price is a bit high for non-functioning, but all it probably needs is a thorough cleaning.



EndeavourDK said:


> 2) Just to make sure; the lume is after 1960 and therefor not the radium-lume ?


Correct, non-radioactive lume.



EndeavourDK said:


> 3) Is there anything correct and if so; what is correct and what not?


Everything looks fine, but I'd like to see the tip of the seconds hand (it is obscured by glare).



EndeavourDK said:


> 4) Would a new crystal still be available somewhere? (If the current crystal is correct at all?)


Cousins UK, probably the Domed Low. I don't know the size offhand, but pop off your crystal and get the calipers out.



EndeavourDK said:


> 5) If there are parts which are not correct, are they still somewhere available ?


Vostok 2214 movements are ubiquitous, you should be able to find donor parts quite easily on ebay, etsy, or any of the Russian auction sites. Alternatively, you can try to find a Komandirskie or other 2214 and use this one for parts.


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> I took a "calculated" gamble and for me a big leap back in time. This will for sure be the oldest Wostok I ever bought.
> 
> The watch was very poorly presented on eBay, just a picture from the side and the back (picture 3 & 4). The dial was not clear to see. Described as "RUNNING BUT TIME SAME". I asked the seller for some dial pictures and while waiting, the number of "followers" clicked up.
> He did sent me two pictures of the dial and the movement (picture 1,2 and 5) and reported that the watch ran, but stopped.
> I found the watch in the 1970 catalogue and decided to buy it.
> 
> If possible I would like to know from our expert panel;
> 
> 1) Did I totally waste my $18 + $5 shipping on a Franken
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2) Just to make sure; the lume is after 1960 and therefor not the radium-lume ?
> 3) Is there anything correct and if so; what is correct and what not?
> 4) Would a new crystal still be available somewhere? (If the current crystal is correct at all?)
> 5) If there are parts which are not correct, are they still somewhere available ?
> 
> I'm very curious what comes out of this and if the watch is somewhat correct and worth restoring, it would be a splendid project for me


the balance: is it me or it is not from same mechanism. Look at the outer edge: the movement is all 'slopped' and the balance cock has the step. No?

Agree on the Seconds tip: looks like it ja missing the arrow part

On some photos the winding crown looks bigger than the space for it. On some it looks ok. Just an angle?


----------



## bpmurray

Odessa200 said:


> the balance: is it me or it is not from same mechanism. Look at the outer edge: the movement is all 'slopped' and the balance cock has the step. No?


The balance cock has the same beveled edge as the rest of the movement, from what I can see. It's blurry, but the finishing seems the same as well.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thank you for your answers so far :-!
It is hard to see from the 1970 catalogue, but it seems to me that the seconds hand is straight (tip) on all watches presented. https://get.google.com/albumarchive.../AF1QipOjVohC9Cw5mboCM-uEuiK10BENxRtugBVNNk5r

Same if I google Vostok 1970, also those similar looking watches seem to have straight (tip) second hands ...... of course they could all be wrong.

As for the 2214; I have to see once the watch gets in. I'm not 100% familiar with this movement, but have a small box full of scrap 22xx movements. I'm not too worried as for the repair side.
What worries me the most are the originality of the parts such a dial / hands / case / crown. The movement can be sorted out.


----------



## Avidfan

I think your watch is all ok :-!

Have a look at this domestic market version for sale on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/634411935/collectable-vostok-komandirskie-military?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all...


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> I think your watch is all ok
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at this domestic market version for sale on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/634...?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all...


Pricy!!! I see my confusion. These are branded as Vostok: straight second hand. I have Komandirskie version with the arrow.


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Pricy!!! I see my confusion. These are branded as Vostok: straight second hand. I have Komandirskie version with the arrow.


Yes it is, but someone will buy it :-d these are civil watches but obviously inspired by the komandirskie range.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> I think your watch is all ok :-!
> 
> Have a look at this domestic market version for sale on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/634411935/collectable-vostok-komandirskie-military?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all...


I was aware of the "arrowed" Komandriskie second hand, which is very nice !

But Avidfan; You just made my day :-! b-) :-d
Great news !
As long as the balance staff pivots are fine and no hidden rust, I do already consider the watch more or less to be a runner. For $18+$5 it would be a great project, especially if I get it to look close to the watch pictured on Etsy .......

Thanks all for your input and help :-!


----------



## jimzilla

Real or Franken???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wostok-COM...645425?hash=item48cad5a931:g:giAAAOSw3IxdCP77


----------



## jimzilla

Looks franken to me with the green dots on dial face.


----------



## elsoldemayo

jimzilla said:


> Real or Franken???
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wostok-COM...645425?hash=item48cad5a931:g:giAAAOSw3IxdCP77


Cheap and nasty Chinese fake. Crown size is the dead giveway on all of them.... and the hands.... and the terrible dial... and the non-Russian movement inside.


----------



## jimzilla

elsoldemayo said:


> Cheap and nasty Chinese fake. Crown size is the dead giveway on all of them.... and the hands.... and the terrible dial... and the non-Russian movement inside.


I am aware of those first hand. I purchased a tank watch with no date and thought I found a diamond in the rough, actually the watch is in great shape and keeps good time but is not the real deal.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Can I please ask the Expert panel again their opinion about this Komandirskie :think:


----------



## schnurrp

EndeavourDK said:


> Can I please ask the Expert panel again their opinion about this Komandirskie :think:


A pair from a 1980 catalog:









Notice in this catalog the black dial is found in the gold case and both are shown with 2234 hacking movement. For me this would be enough to make me suspicious of the subject watch and I would probably stay away, since these are not super rare, unless the price is very low for parts.


----------



## EndeavourDK

schnurrp said:


> Notice in this catalog the black dial is found in the gold case and both are shown with 2234 hacking movement. For me this would be enough to make me suspicious of the subject watch and I would probably stay away, since these are not super rare, unless the price is very low for parts.


Thank you very much ...... and yes I had so my doubts. Now confirmed :-!
Thank you ;-)


----------



## thewatchadude

The case on the photo looks different to me from the cases in the catalog. Am I wrong?


----------



## schnurrp

No I think you are right, dude. There's this one from the 1990 catalog which has the 2414 movement, different dial and the slightly out of round case:









Subject watch a total Franken.


----------



## EndeavourDK

schnurrp said:


> Subject watch a total Franken.


Thanks all for the detective work and sharp eye ........ needless to say, I'll take your advice and it's a big pass !!
Glad that I asked and another lesson learned :-!


----------



## Odessa200

What do you guys say about this 31659?


----------



## chazda1991

Hi everyone,

I'm very new to Russian watches (and watches in general really...)! My interest was piqued when I stumbled across a Soviet antiques shop in Kyrgyzstan and now I'm furiously researching and beginning to buy a few old watches.

Was interested to see your guys thoughts on this one from eBay - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143315724554

I've noticed that you guys refer to the catalogues a lot - how would I start referencing the catalogues? Do I need to know the year of manufacture of a specific watch in order to know which catalogue to check? Or is there and indexed guide online somewhere?

Thanks for all your help. Has been very interesting reading this thread, you all have a very keen eye for detail!


----------



## schnurrp

Sturmanskie looks pretty good to me. Dated balance bridge a plus although by '89, if that's what it is, the newer dial with higher contrast should have been used. Hands may have been re-lumed but the rest of the lume looks original so maybe not.

The one I used to own with the grey on grey dial like that one was dated '87 on the balance.


----------



## Odessa200

chazda1991 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm very new to Russian watches (and watches in general really...)! My interest was piqued when I stumbled across a Soviet antiques shop in Kyrgyzstan and now I'm furiously researching and beginning to buy a few old watches.
> 
> Was interested to see your guys thoughts on this one from eBay - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143315724554
> 
> I've noticed that you guys refer to the catalogues a lot - how would I start referencing the catalogues? Do I need to know the year of manufacture of a specific watch in order to know which catalogue to check? Or is there and indexed guide online somewhere?
> 
> Thanks for all your help. Has been very interesting reading this thread, you all have a very keen eye for detail!


Welcome to the forum! I would pass on this Pobeda. The dial is from 80s. The body is quite beaten and looks like a later mechanism to me. For the listed price you should be able to find in a mint condition a Pobeda like that.

For the catalogs: there are not that many of them. If you spend a few hours studying them you should be able to guess where to look!


----------



## dutchassasin

woah woah $61 for a pobeda seems a little excessive


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Sturmanskie looks pretty good to me. Dated balance bridge a plus although by '89, if that's what it is, the newer dial with higher contrast should have been used. Hands may have been re-lumed but the rest of the lume looks original so maybe not.
> 
> The one I used to own with the grey on grey dial like that one was dated '87 on the balance.


Thanks Schnurrp! It looks like it is 88 on the balance. At least this is what I think. Hands do look re-lumed. Agree.


----------



## schnurrp

chazda1991 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm very new to Russian watches (and watches in general really...)! My interest was piqued when I stumbled across a Soviet antiques shop in Kyrgyzstan and now I'm furiously researching and beginning to buy a few old watches.
> 
> Was interested to see your guys thoughts on this one from eBay - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143315724554
> 
> I've noticed that you guys refer to the catalogues a lot - how would I start referencing the catalogues? Do I need to know the year of manufacture of a specific watch in order to know which catalogue to check? Or is there and indexed guide online somewhere?
> 
> Thanks for all your help. Has been very interesting reading this thread, you all have a very keen eye for detail!


I have the catalogs I use organized by factory and year on my site. You're welcome to use them: https://sites.google.com/view/one-hundred-soviet-hours/catalogs

"A keen eye for detail" is necessary to be a successful collector of just about any vintage item. Asking questions on this forum is a good way to start learning. Just be patient and be prepared to invest some time.

That Zim is overpriced, in my opinion. You could do better with your $60.


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> woah woah $61 for a pobeda seems a little excessive


Agree. Maybe for NOS condition with box and papers it would be justified. Not for this one. But people are bidding on it. Strange...


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think about this vostok? I think it's all original, but i'm in doubt on the dial, i don't know if this dial was originally on the 470 cases.










Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Avidfan

It looks like a 470305 as found in the 1990 catalogue...


----------



## Victorv

Avidfan said:


> It looks like a 470305 as found in the 1990 catalogue...
> 
> View attachment 14303709


wow i was going crazy looking on the forums.

Many many thanks dear Avidfan.

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## chazda1991

schnurrp said:


> chazda1991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm very new to Russian watches (and watches in general really...)! My interest was piqued when I stumbled across a Soviet antiques shop in Kyrgyzstan and now I'm furiously researching and beginning to buy a few old watches.
> 
> Was interested to see your guys thoughts on this one from eBay - https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143315724554
> 
> I've noticed that you guys refer to the catalogues a lot - how would I start referencing the catalogues? Do I need to know the year of manufacture of a specific watch in order to know which catalogue to check? Or is there and indexed guide online somewhere?
> 
> Thanks for all your help. Has been very interesting reading this thread, you all have a very keen eye for detail!
> 
> 
> 
> I have the catalogs I use organized by factory and year on my site. You're welcome to use them: https://sites.google.com/view/one-hundred-soviet-hours/catalogs
> 
> "A keen eye for detail" is necessary to be a successful collector of just about any vintage item. Asking questions on this forum is a good way to start learning. Just be patient and be prepared to invest some time.
> 
> That Zim is overpriced, in my opinion. You could do better with your $60.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the link to your site. Everyone's input has been invaluable and I really appreciate it!


----------



## jimzilla

Hey guy's, had a watch come in that has already been authenticated by our experts, question is the back only has one indexing extension the case has two as typical. is this correct for this watch?
thank you.


----------



## jimzilla

I may be pressing my luck but does anyone kmow if this is the real deal???

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202723712517


----------



## schnurrp

jimzilla said:


> I may be pressing my luck but does anyone kmow if this is the real deal???
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/202723712517


That reconstruction of the original First Moscow Sturmanskie pilot's watch is not, in my opinion, made up of parts from many watches as with most frankens, if that's what you mean by "the real deal". That having been said I have no idea who was responsible for creating the watch. The use of the First Moscow modern 2614 movement is its only claim to being "Russian" as there does not appear to be any branding of any kind on the watch.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Hey guy's, had a watch come in that has already been authenticated by our experts, question is the back only has one indexing extension *the case has two as typical*. is this correct for this watch?
> thank you.


Interesting that your case had two slots, but by now I've learned that not much is "typical". Below two pictures of both my Generalskies (top is the paratrooper, below the Radio-Room). Both with one indexing extension on the back-cover and one index slot in the case. Your watch is in the 1993 catalogue, not a "typical" period. I'm very sure, if nobody else, comrade Avidfan will know the answer 

Also, there was still an outstanding question from the authentication "process"; is the 2416b a "SU" ?


----------



## capannelle

Even my 091433 has two slots on the case and only one on the caseback. 
The movement is marked SU.

it's probably a normal feature of this model


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hey guy's, had a watch come in that has already been authenticated by our experts, question is the back only has one indexing extension the case has two as typical. is this correct for this watch?
> thank you.


I don't think we'll ever know the reason for this but it could be that it's an earlier version of the 09 case :think: all the later post-Soviet 09 cases I've seen have one tab on the case back and one slot cut into the case.

As the passport matches the serial number on the case back I don't think there's anything to worry about at all


----------



## jimzilla

schnurrp said:


> That reconstruction of the original First Moscow Sturmanskie pilot's watch is not, in my opinion, made up of parts from many watches as with most frankens, if that's what you mean by "the real deal". That having been said I have no idea who was responsible for creating the watch. The use of the First Moscow modern 2614 movement is its only claim to being "Russian" as there does not appear to be any branding of any kind on the watch.


Thank you schnurrp for the expertise. I am liking the Sturmanskies these days and I think I will get some if I can find real ones. Best regards sir and thanks again.


----------



## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> Interesting that your case had two slots, but by now I've learned that not much is "typical". Below two pictures of both my Generalskies (top is the paratrooper, below the Radio-Room). Both with one indexing extension on the back-cover and one index slot in the case. Your watch is in the 1993 catalogue, not a "typical" period. I'm very sure, if nobody else, comrade Avidfan will know the answer
> 
> Also, there was still an outstanding question from the authentication "process"; is the 2416b a "SU" ?


Yes Roland the 2416b is marked "SU" I guess I am good to go!


----------



## dropmyload

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

Deleted, wrong posting.


----------



## Odessa200

dropmyload said:


> Hello experts do you feel this is original watch or franken?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


This is a Russian watch topic. Maybe someone will know but you better post to the correct forum...


----------



## dropmyload

My apolgies. I'll delete the post. So sorry. 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


----------



## dutchassasin

this strange dial baffles me, anyone seen it before?


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> this strange dial baffles me, anyone seen it before?
> 
> View attachment 14308269


 nope. Someone was trying to be original or was replicating it by memory 🙂


----------



## EndeavourDK

dutchassasin said:


> this strange dial baffles me, anyone seen it before?


As you know, the hands are completely wrong, but the color of the lume on the dial has about the "CCCP-yellow" ..... very strange indeed :-s

Edit; perhaps the lume dot next to the date-window is a give-away ?


----------



## Kalashnikov-74

Does this look like it is authentic? I am completely new to Russian watches and watches in general. I currently only have a Marathon TSAR I got issued in 2007 and a Seiko Tuna Can my dad gave me in the 90's.

I like the look of the dial but it doesn't look authentic to me, the patina (wear, damage, whatever it is) looks to perfect to be real. Thanks for any help and tips.


----------



## Avidfan

@Kalashnikov-74

It looks like a 020521, here's the image from the 1993 catalogue:









The bezel is new and the lume spot has been added...


----------



## Avidfan

dutchassasin said:


> this strange dial baffles me, anyone seen it before?


Looks like an original Chistopol dial and the aged lume is in the correct place as shown by the white location spots underneath the lume...


----------



## Kalashnikov-74

Avidfan said:


> @Kalashnikov-74
> 
> It looks like a 020521, here's the image from the 1993 catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 14308673
> 
> 
> The bezel is new and the lume spot has been added...


Thank you for the info Avidfan, it is appreciated.


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> @Kalashnikov-74
> 
> It looks like a 020521, here's the image from the 1993 catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 14308673
> 
> 
> The bezel is new and the lume spot has been added...


In this case, I like the job that was done. Would be good to have a bezel aged a bit to match the rest of the watch though....


----------



## jimzilla

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> Does this look like it is authentic? I am completely new to Russian watches and watches in general. I currently only have a Marathon TSAR I got issued in 2007 and a Seiko Tuna Can my dad gave me in the 90's.
> 
> I like the look of the dial but it doesn't look authentic to me, the patina (wear, damage, whatever it is) looks to perfect to be real. Thanks for any help and tips.
> 
> View attachment 14308645
> 
> 
> View attachment 14308647
> 
> 
> View attachment 14308649
> 
> 
> View attachment 14308651


Welcome to the site comrade Kalashnikov-74
I like how your watch patinas around the black margin of the dial face ..... cool! :-!


----------



## Kalashnikov-74

jimzilla said:


> Welcome to the site comrade Kalashnikov-74
> I like how your watch patinas around the black margin of the dial face ..... cool! :-!


Thank you for the welcome to the site. Sadly the watch is not mine, I was bidding on it but stopped when I saw a bidder come in that had over 1000 bid retractions and felt the auction was no longer something I wanted to take part of. The good thing is I will have many more opportunities to purchase a Russian watch and with the knowledge of this site I should be able to make a more educated purchase.


----------



## dutchassasin

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> Sadly the watch is not mine, I was bidding on it but stopped when I saw a bidder come in that had over 1000 bid retractions


Would have done the same, good to walk away! That many retractions seems excessive how is that guy not banned yet?


----------



## Odessa200

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the site comrade Kalashnikov-74
> I like how your watch patinas around the black margin of the dial face ..... cool!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the welcome to the site. Sadly the watch is not mine, I was bidding on it but stopped when I saw a bidder come in that had over 1000 bid retractions and felt the auction was no longer something I wanted to take part of. The good thing is I will have many more opportunities to purchase a Russian watch and with the knowledge of this site I should be able to make a more educated purchase.
> 
> View attachment 14310769
Click to expand...

This is new to me ?. I bid till the price is right for me. Never look at the other bidders history. ?


----------



## Kalashnikov-74

Odessa200 said:


> This is new to me &#55357;&#56898;. I bid till the price is right for me. Never look at the other bidders history. &#55357;&#56898;


This was the first time I checked the bid history, it didn't seem to be going as most auctions normally do. My next open window was me doing research on retractions and I learned a lot. This seems like the bidder I have shown bid until he saw my high bid, retracted his bid and put a new bid one cent below my top bid. It helps keep away other bidders since the price is already high and they expect it will climb higher, the current winning bidder does not realize he is about to be out bid unless he happens to check the auction near it ending ( I did check it) and the person retracting can bid one cent higher than the currently winning account and win the auction for the least amount possible with less of a likely hood of snipers/last minute bidders. I lost by one cent and thought about increasing my bid at the end but decided against it, there will be plenty more chances for me to get one.

The other main reason for retractions are shill bidders but this is not the case in the auction. The seller has 100% feedback with a ton of watch sales and the retractor has zero bid history with them.


----------



## Odessa200

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is new to me ��. I bid till the price is right for me. Never look at the other bidders history. ��
> 
> 
> 
> This was the first time I checked the bid history, it didn't seem to be going as most auctions normally do. My next open window was me doing research on retractions and I learned a lot. This seems like the bidder I have shown bid until he saw my high bid, retracted his bid and put a new bid one cent below my top bid. It helps keep away other bidders since the price is already high and they expect it will climb higher, the current winning bidder does not realize he is about to be out bid unless he happens to check the auction near it ending ( I did check it) and the person retracting can bid one cent higher than the currently winning account and win the auction for the least amount possible with less of a likely hood of snipers/last minute bidders. I lost by one cent and thought about increasing my bid at the end but decided against it, there will be plenty more chances for me to get one.
> 
> The other main reason for retractions are shill bidders but this is not the case in the auction. The seller has 100% feedback with a ton of watch sales and the retractor has zero bid history with them.
Click to expand...

I never new about this. This is a clear ABUSE of the retraction policy! I have now read how this 'trick' is done. Report him to the Ebay!
Cheers.


----------



## jimzilla

I am wondering if real or FRANKEN!!!. thank you.
Sorry I only have 1 pic. Has Zim 2602 Movement


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> I am wondering if real or FRANKEN!!!. thank you.
> Sorry I only have 1 pic. Has Zim 2602 Movement


100% franken. It is pobeda watch with fantasy dial. That dial never existed.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Odessa200

stevarad said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am wondering if real or FRANKEN!!!. thank you.
> Sorry I only have 1 pic. Has Zim 2602 Movement
> 
> 
> 
> 100% franken. It is pobeda watch with fantasy dial. That dial never existed.
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока
Click to expand...

100% agree


----------



## Odessa200

Vostok experts, Is this real Vostok movement or ....? 

Thanks!


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Vostok experts, Is this real Vostok movement or ....?
> 
> Thanks!


Looks like a ordinary Vostok 2414A movement from the mid-1990's onwards...

What makes you think it's not real?


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Looks like a ordinary Vostok 2414A movement from the mid-1990's onwards...
> 
> What makes you think it's not real?


Where is the "B" on the main plate or are there main-plates without ...... :think:

Edit; it very much looks like a normal 2414 .....


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok experts, Is this real Vostok movement or ....?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a ordinary Vostok 2414A movement from the mid-1990's onwards...
> 
> What makes you think it's not real?
Click to expand...

Thanks Avidfan. Sometime back I got a lot of old beaten Vostoks for just a few $. They all from around transition period. No markings on the movements. Just decided to run by the forum.

And here is the face of the watch.


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Avidfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a ordinary Vostok 2414A movement from the mid-1990's onwards...
> 
> What makes you think it's not real?
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the "B" on the main plate or are there main-plates without ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit; it very much looks like a normal 2414 .....
Click to expand...

🙂. Thanks for consult!


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Where is the "B" on the main plate or are there main-plates without ...... :think:


Well it looks like some were without the "B"....

But every single part says "Made by Vostok" :-d


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Thanks Avidfan. Sometime back I got a lot of old beaten Vostoks for just a few $. They all from around transition period. No markings on the movements. Just decided to run by the forum.
> 
> And here is the face of the watch.


Watch is correct also, (the type 74 bezel on a type 34 case was often used in the second half of the 90's...)


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Avidfan. Sometime back I got a lot of old beaten Vostoks for just a few $. They all from around transition period. No markings on the movements. Just decided to run by the forum.
> 
> And here is the face of the watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Watch is correct also, (the type 74 bezel on a type 34 case was often used in the second half of the 90's...)
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Well it looks like some were without the "B"....


Good that I don't have any hair left, otherwise it would have been very grey ! :-d


----------



## jimzilla

jimzilla said:


> I am wondering if real or FRANKEN!!!. thank you.
> Sorry I only have 1 pic. Has Zim 2602 Movement


It seems there are more fakes than real ones out there!
Has anyone compiled a list of sellers that sell only the genuine article?


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> It seems there are more fakes than real ones out there!
> Has anyone compiled a list of sellers that sell only the genuine article?


Russian roulette :-d

A list; not that I'm aware of, but in time you will learn what's real and what is (perhaps) not. Best is to build your own knowledge and than there is the forum with "walking" data-basis's 
One seller I know who seems to sell pretty decent stuff (but don't trust blindly): 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/la_relojeria_rusa/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=
(not often with papers though)
Ask him any questions and to me he has been honest ......

I'm sure there are more honest and good sellers out there ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> It seems there are more fakes than real ones out there!
> Has anyone compiled a list of sellers that sell only the genuine article?


Knowledge is the only defence....


----------



## chazda1991

I like the look of this Slava but not sure it is real? It has Slava branding but doesn't say it was made in the USSR (CCCP). Would that mean it was from the transition period?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143330004212

On a separate note, I've seen a few watches on eBay that state "Made in USSR" rather than the Russian Cyrillic equivalent. Was English and Russian used interchangeably on watch faces during the USSR? Any information greatly appreciated!


----------



## Odessa200

chazda1991 said:


> I like the look of this Slava but not sure it is real? It has Slava branding but doesn't say it was made in the USSR (CCCP). Would that mean it was from the transition period?
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143330004212
> 
> On a separate note, I've seen a few watches on eBay that state "Made in USSR" rather than the Russian Cyrillic equivalent. Was English and Russian used interchangeably on watch faces during the USSR? Any information greatly appreciated!


Welcome to the forum. 
In my opinion, yes, Slava from 92-93. Similar to this. I am always skeptical when the hands color does not match the body color. But this is Transitional period: all is possible ? 
Aside from that, I do not see any other issues.

English vs Cyrillic: domestic vs export models. Same mechanisms. Get whatever you like. Some people prefer one vs another.


----------



## chazda1991

Odessa200 said:


> chazda1991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the look of this Slava but not sure it is real? It has Slava branding but doesn't say it was made in the USSR (CCCP). Would that mean it was from the transition period?
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143330004212
> 
> On a separate note, I've seen a few watches on eBay that state "Made in USSR" rather than the Russian Cyrillic equivalent. Was English and Russian used interchangeably on watch faces during the USSR? Any information greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> In my opinion, yes, Slava from 92-93. Similar to this. I am always skeptical when the hands color does not match the body color. But this is Transitional period: all is possible ?
> Aside from that, I do not see any other issues.
> 
> English vs Cyrillic: domestic vs export models. Same mechanisms. Get whatever you like. Some people prefer one vs another.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot!

One more for this evening if you guys don't mind. Been looking at this Vostok:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143318000307

It has the заказ marking on the bottom. The mechanism doesn't appear to have any branding though. Any comments appreciated as always!


----------



## Odessa200

chazda1991 said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chazda1991 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the look of this Slava but not sure it is real? It has Slava branding but doesn't say it was made in the USSR (CCCP). Would that mean it was from the transition period?
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143330004212
> 
> On a separate note, I've seen a few watches on eBay that state "Made in USSR" rather than the Russian Cyrillic equivalent. Was English and Russian used interchangeably on watch faces during the USSR? Any information greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forum.
> In my opinion, yes, Slava from 92-93. Similar to this. I am always skeptical when the hands color does not match the body color. But this is Transitional period: all is possible ?
> Aside from that, I do not see any other issues.
> 
> English vs Cyrillic: domestic vs export models. Same mechanisms. Get whatever you like. Some people prefer one vs another.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks a lot!
> 
> One more for this evening if you guys don't mind. Been looking at this Vostok:
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/143318000307
> 
> It has the заказ marking on the bottom. The mechanism doesn't appear to have any branding though. Any comments appreciated as always!
Click to expand...

Looks legit to me. Mechanism has the branding. See attached. And here is the catalog picture. From the 80s.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Puzzled to say the least ......

Can an expert shed his light over this one ?


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Puzzled to say the least ......
> 
> Can an expert shed his light over this one ?


 Chinese movement. Probably the rest is from there as well...


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Puzzled to say the least ......
> 
> Can an expert shed his light over this one ?


Genuine type 44 Vostok case, and what looks to me to be a Slava 2414 movement, the dial is not made by Vostok but probably by a small company based in Moscow that made lots of these in the 1990's, some with Vostok movements, some with Slava movements, so I wouldn't call them fake or franken as such :think:

The dial translates something like " Legionnaire" and as you can see the "B" logo is not quite correct :-d


----------



## dutchassasin

Avidfan said:


> what looks to me to be a Slava 2414 movement


I was just about to say the same


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> Avidfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> what looks to me to be a Slava 2414 movement
> 
> 
> 
> I was just about to say the same
Click to expand...

You guys are right. Quite a mix of parts 🙂


----------



## jimzilla

I have one for authentication please, just came in today. Got it cleaned up and will be wearing it to dinner tonight. thank you in advance.


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> I have one for authentication please, just came in today. Got it cleaned up and will be wearing it to dinner tonight. thank you in advance.


Everything looks fine. Beautiful dial.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I have one for authentication please, just came in today. Got it cleaned up and will be wearing it to dinner tonight. thank you in advance.


Very nice example of a 341334 :-!


----------



## arkitec

Are all unmarked movements fake? This one is from a suppose Slava 21J for export (English Text).


----------



## schnurrp

Avidfan said:


> The dial translates something like " Legionnaire" and as you can see the "B" logo is not quite correct :-d


I am always suspicious of a dial with no lume paired with lumed hands.


----------



## EndeavourDK

arkitec said:


> Are all unmarked movements fake? This one is from a suppose Slava 21J for export (English Text).


It's for sure not unmarked .....


----------



## arkitec

Ahh yes. I guess I'm use to seeing it on other parts. Are all these Slavas makers this way?


----------



## Avidfan

schnurrp said:


> I am always suspicious of a dial with no lume paired with lumed hands.


As it's not a dial made by Vostok I don't think this unofficial "rule" applies for an unofficial dial, could be that they forgot to put the lume on :think:

There are lots of dials in this series some lumed, some not, it's probably best not to overanalyse too much watches made in this era :-d


----------



## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> Very nice example of a 341334 :-!


As always thank you very much for your time guy's.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Recently comrade Odessa200 asked about a post-Soviet, from the transition period, watch which he acquired. I noticed that it had no "B" stamped on the main-plate.
Today I stripped a watch which was also from the transition period and notice that it had no "B" either. Instead it had a hand-scratched "V" on the place the "B" supposed to be. Looking back to the original Odessa200 posting and it turns out that Odessa200's watch has the same hand-scratched "V", be it in a slightly different place.
Perhaps the "B" stamp(ing machine) was sold off (or nicked b-) ) and an employee had to scratch a "V" instead ....... :think:
If we were to assume that the "V" stands for "Vostok" than all is "authenticated" and "kosher" :-d

First picture Odessa200 watch, 2nd picture the movement I'm currently working on ....


----------



## schnurrp

Avidfan said:


> it's probably best not to overanalyse too much watches made in this era :-d


I agree with you there, comrade, but it doesn't stop forum participants.

Personally, despite the general lack of authenticity proof for Russian watches, I am attracted more as the authenticity proof increases.


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Recently comrade Odessa200 asked about a post-Soviet, from the transition period, watch which he acquired. I noticed that it had no "B" stamped on the main-plate.
> Today I stripped a watch which was also from the transition period and notice that it had no "B" either. Instead it had a hand-scratched "V" on the place the "B" supposed to be. Looking back to the original Odessa200 posting and it turns out that Odessa200's watch has the same hand-scratched "V", be it in a slightly different place.
> Perhaps the "B" stamp(ing machine) was sold off (or nicked
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and an employee had to scratch a "V" instead .......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we were to assume that the "V" stands for "Vostok" than all is "authenticated" and "kosher"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First picture Odessa200 watch, 2nd picture the movement I'm currently working on ....


Intrigued by this, I just looked at the only Komandirskie I have and know to be 100% legit (cause I bought them in a military shop back then around 1991-92). Nope. No V. It has the B in the circle. Also I find it super strange if someone at Vostok factory would mark Vostoks with V (English V). I can see it as a check mark sign (checked) but not a substitute for the B from 'Восток'.

Also, a bit of history about the other watch I posted: I got a set of watches from the guy who bought them in USSR as a tourist. They came not from a salesperson or a watch dealer. One of the lots that you can tell sold by a 'regular watch owner who no longer needs it'. Used and abused. I am quite certain they are produced by Vostok during the hectic transition time.

So we have a mystery: what is this V means ?


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> Intrigued by this, I just looked at the only Komandirskie I have and know to be 100% legit (cause I bought them in a military shop back then around 1991-92). Nope. No V. It has the B in the circle. Also I find it super strange if someone at Vostok factory would mark Vostoks with V (English V). I can see it as a check mark sign (checked) but not a substitute for the B from 'Восток'.
> 
> Also, a bit of history about the other watch I posted: I got a set of watches from the guy who bought them in USSR as a tourist. They came not from a salesperson or a watch dealer. One of the lots that you can tell sold by a 'regular watch owner who no longer needs it'. Used and abused. I am quite certain they are produced by Vostok during the hectic transition time.
> 
> So we have a mystery: what is this V means ?


I would assume that the "V" will stay a mystery ..... Your watch was the first I've ever seen without a "B". Next to the 30+ Vostoks I own, I do have a number of spare main-plates .... and all those do have a "B". As it turns out, an exception to the lot was the watch I started servicing this morning. I was surprised to see the 2nd main plate without a "B". It had a "V" and looking back so does yours and both watches are from the transitional period ..... :think:

I've no doubt that both movements are authentic.

Anyway, it keeps things exciting :-d


----------



## Ckdo92

Hi all, what about this one, looks legit to me?
Thanks


----------



## Ckdo92

Hi all, what about this one, looks legit to me?
Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

I had opened all 4 Vostoks from the set I bought. 2 have B in the circle. 2 have this V. By the way, the V (if turned upside down) can be Russian ‘L’. Look at the attached: this is the 2nd watch having this V or maybe an A (but it maybe a scratch across V). Now we need to think about the russian word that starts with L or A 🙂


----------



## Odessa200

Ckdo92 said:


> Hi all, what about this one, looks legit to me?
> Thanks
> View attachment 14329747
> 
> View attachment 14329751


Agree.


----------



## Ckdo92

Got to have it then great! Thanks @Odessa200


----------



## Ckdo92

Going on a shopping spree potentially, what about this stadium?


----------



## schnurrp

Ckdo92 said:


> Going on a shopping spree potentially, what about this stadium?
> View attachment 14329809
> 
> View attachment 14329811


Looks good to me. https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/chaika?lightbox=dataItem-ifn8ieck


----------



## Kotsov

Ckdo92 said:


> Going on a shopping spree potentially, what about this stadium?
> View attachment 14329809
> 
> View attachment 14329811


It's lovely.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Ckdo92 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Going on a shopping spree potentially, what about this stadium?
> View attachment 14329809
> 
> View attachment 14329811
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good to me. https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/chaika?lightbox=dataItem-ifn8ieck
Click to expand...

All seems to be right except why different red color shades... faded like that?


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> All seems to be right except why different red color shades... faded like that?


I don't know how likely it is that the exact same paint was used to print the dial and lume the hands so, yes, some fading or color changing is to be expected, I suppose.


----------



## Ckdo92

Odessa200 said:


> All seems to be right except why different red color shades... faded like that?


Worst case hands have been changed/repainted, but still the right model/color I think.
I bought this one anyway


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> I had opened all 4 Vostoks from the set I bought. 2 have B in the circle. 2 have this V. By the way, the V (if turned upside down) can be Russian 'L'. Look at the attached: this is the 2nd watch having this V or maybe an A (but it maybe a scratch across V). Now we need to think about the russian word that starts with L or A ?


Had a few more spare main-plates to check and found one without the "B" ....... and sure enough, it had a hand-scratched "V" ! It's a bit harder to see, but with an 3.3x eye-loupe it's clearly there. The movement had a metal color dog-leg leaf-spring, a metal color anti-shock spring and a "one-slot" LH crown-wheel screw, which puts it in the post-Soviet period.


----------



## jimzilla

I had a operation desert shield come in and I am In need of authentication. Don't these have special case backs? this one does not.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I had a operation desert shield come in and I am In need of authentication. Don't these have special case backs? this one does not.


There are quite a few of these. What you have is a legit one and is described here: https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/vostok/desert-shield/

Good read for the history and evolution of this watch.


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> There are quite a few of these. What you have is a legit one and is described here: https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/vostok/desert-shield/
> 
> Good read for the history and evolution of this watch.


Thank you very much for the link odessa200, very informative. I had no idea there were so many models of this watch, best regards sir. |>


----------



## chazda1991

Hi guys,

Was wondering if this Luch is real? Also, is it worth the money? I'm a big fan of it, but don't want to pay too much over the odds!

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/122655036720

Thanks as always!


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, i had a couple more come in and I am wondering of authenticity, no papers no box. these are just going into rotation unless someone tells me otherwise.
I have a question as well, on the amphibia model can you remove the movement and anti magnetic shield and fit a calendar movement with rotor?, thanks.
As always thank you for your time and opinions, best regards,James.


----------



## Odessa200

chazda1991 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Was wondering if this Luch is real? Also, is it worth the money? I'm a big fan of it, but don't want to pay too much over the odds!
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/122655036720
> 
> Thanks as always!


In my view, this is a real Luch from 1962-75 (based on the movement) and closer to 1975 (based on the dial). Maybe the seconds hand is replaced. Maybe not. Price wise: not a bargain but not crazy. You decide ?

P.S. I was tempted to buy it but decided that would be wrong ?


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, i had a couple more come in and I am wondering of authenticity, no papers no box. these are just going into rotation unless someone tells me otherwise.
> I have a question as well, on the amphibia model can you remove the movement and anti magnetic shield and fit a calendar movement with rotor?, thanks.
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, best regards,James.


Are you hoarding Dirskie? 🙂. Sorry, no clue how to answer your questions. 🙂


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, i had a couple more come in and I am wondering of authenticity, no papers no box. these are just going into rotation unless someone tells me otherwise.
> I have a question as well, on the amphibia model can you remove the movement and anti magnetic shield and fit a calendar movement with rotor?, thanks.
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, best regards,James.


Your Amphibia looks like it's this one from the 1993 catalogue, it just needs a dot-dash bezel with lume spot, the Komandirskie looks ok also :-!









The Amphibia should be in a 020 case as this was designed for the 2409A / 2414A movements, I've no idea if a 2416b will fit in a 020 as the 2416b usually went in the slightly thicker 420 which looks almost the same, and of course the dial on your Amphibia is for a 2409A only...


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Avidfan as always, I honestly don't know what we would do without you, you are a walking dictionary on Russian watches! |>|>|>|>
Thank you sir!


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> I have a question as well, on the amphibia model can you remove the movement and anti magnetic shield and fit a calendar movement with rotor?, thanks.


For general educational purposes I tried out a complete 2416b + dial+ hands in a 020 housing, obviously with an appropriate back-cover for an automatic. No problem installing the 2416b and the rotor seems to rotate freely. So the answer to your question; plausible.
But as comrade Avidfan said, the factory has produced the 420 for the automatic and the 020 for the manual wound movement. Perhaps they found / knew a very valid reason why :think:

Off the record; before, I wasn't aware of the differences between the 420 and the 020 housings. Most likely I had automatics in the 020 housings and never had a problem ..... but that only works if one is blissfully unaware :-d


----------



## AaParker

Not sure what this is -- might be a Hong Kong watch with a Soviet movement? Just curious if you believe it started out as as a HK watch, or similar, with a Soviet movement being used (2609HA) or was cobbled together at a later date from parts from different watches:


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Not sure what this is -- might be a Hong Kong watch with a Soviet movement? Just curious if you believe it started out as as a HK watch, or similar, with a Soviet movement being used (2609HA) or was cobbled together at a later date from parts from different watches:
> 
> View attachment 14337337
> 
> 
> View attachment 14337339


This for sure a Raketa movement. And the body looks like a Soviet watch. Most likely this was assembled long time ago in USSR for a customer who wanted to have a foreign looking watch.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> This for sure a Raketa movement. And the body looks like a Soviet watch. Most likely this was assembled long time ago in USSR for a customer who wanted to have a foreign looking watch.


Thanks. Any idea what the name/brand of the watch means? I couldn't find anything about it. Interesting that it has a Pegasus and three stars. Maybe something to do with constellations.


----------



## Avidfan

@AaParker, There's not much information on these anywhere but this old thread might help: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/clometta-942467.html


----------



## AaParker

Avidfan said:


> @AaParker, There's not much information on these anywhere but this old thread might help: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/clometta-942467.html


Ah, Clometta. Seller was showing it as Clornetta. No wonder there was nothing out there. And, not much either with Clometta, but the old thread does help a great deal in understanding this particular watch.


----------



## Odessa200

Please spot check me: which of these dials are real and what is fake? Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

I believe 1, 4, and 6 are wrong. Slashes should have straight sides like 2.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> I believe 1, 4, and 6 are wrong. Slashes should have straight sides like 2.
> 
> View attachment 14341243


Thanks Schnurrp! I was thinking same. I got the number 5, btw. Wanted to have a Precision in good state....


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> I got the number 5, btw. Wanted to have a Precision in good state....


Mission accomplished, comrade!


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Thanks Schnurrp! I was thinking same. I got the number 5, btw. Wanted to have a Precision in good state....


I agree with shnurrp, and believe 2 (hands) and 3 (case) are also wrong. So 5 was the only good choice. Congrats! Wear it and enjoy it in good health!
Ivan

PS: You can spot your new watch here


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Schnurrp! I was thinking same. I got the number 5, btw. Wanted to have a Precision in good state....
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with shnurrp, and believe 2 (hands) and 3 (case) are also wrong. So 5 was the only good choice. Congrats! Wear it and enjoy it in good health!
> Ivan
> 
> PS: You can spot your new watch here
> View attachment 14342591
Click to expand...

Thanks Kamburov! Totally agree. 🙂


----------



## EndeavourDK

It seems that I'm a bit on a dead end with the "modern" (Soviet & later 24xx) Komandirskies & Amphibians, so I need some new inspiration, some new (DIY) challenges so to speak. I'm trying to learn more about the older Komandirskies with the 2214 or the 2234 movements.
I've seen this one and like to know were to watch for, what is desirable, parts availability (crystals, crown etc), price range etc, etc ......
Has anybody some links for good educational documentation ?

Anyway, what is the experts opinion about this one ..... is it a good example or to look for better? Asking price US$54.50 + US$9.50 shipping.
(I noticed that the balance bridge hasn't got a chamfered edge and surface finish unlike the rest of the movement; seems replaced ? :think
Please, experts information about the more "special" examples to look for, and their pitfalls, is highly appreciated ! :-!


----------



## VWatchie

I have numerous Vostoks and several Poljots, but I have yet to buy my first Raketa, and I've been looking for a very, very long time. Casually browsing eBay I laid my eyes on the following watch:







I never saw this one before, and something about the hands (which I really like) just doesn't feel right, and the condition somehow seems a little bit too good to be pre-owned. If it's legit I probaly won't be able to resist it, but if not, I really don't think it's worth it. So, what do say?
Here is the eBay link to the listing.


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> It seems that I'm a bit on a dead end with the "modern" (Soviet & later 24xx) Komandirskies & Amphibians, so I need some new inspiration, some new (DIY) challenges so to speak. I'm trying to learn more about the older Komandirskies with the 2214 or the 2234 movements.
> I've seen this one and like to know were to watch for, what is desirable, parts availability (crystals, crown etc), price range etc, etc ......
> Has anybody some links for good educational documentation ?
> 
> Anyway, what is the experts opinion about this one ..... is it a good example or to look for better? Asking price US$54.50 + US$9.50 shipping.
> (I noticed that the balance bridge hasn't got a chamfered edge and surface finish unlike the rest of the movement; seems replaced ? :think
> Please, experts information about the more "special" examples to look for, and their pitfalls, is highly appreciated ! :-!


This thread is worth reading on the older Komandirskies: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html

I think you're right about the balance bridge :think: hopefully other comrades will have more information


----------



## dutchassasin

VWatchie said:


> I never saw this one before, and something about the hands (which I really like) just doesn't feel right, and the condition somehow seems a little bit too good to be pre-owned. If it's legit I probaly won't .


DO NOT BUY THAT ONE. Total fake

Original one can be seen here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/c-3po-wait-no-4342186.html


----------



## VWatchie

dutchassasin said:


> DO NOT BUY THAT ONE. Total fake
> 
> Original one can be seen here : https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/c-3po-wait-no-4342186.html


I felt pretty sure about my instincts but good to get it confirmed. Thanks! Someone should report these watches to eBay when marketed, as in this case, as the original.


----------



## bpmurray

EndeavourDK said:


> It seems that I'm a bit on a dead end with the "modern" (Soviet & later 24xx) Komandirskies & Amphibians, so I need some new inspiration, some new (DIY) challenges so to speak. I'm trying to learn more about the older Komandirskies with the 2214 or the 2234 movements.
> I've seen this one and like to know were to watch for, what is desirable, parts availability (crystals, crown etc), price range etc, etc ......
> Has anybody some links for good educational documentation ?
> 
> Anyway, what is the experts opinion about this one ..... is it a good example or to look for better? Asking price US$54.50 + US$9.50 shipping.
> (I noticed that the balance bridge hasn't got a chamfered edge and surface finish unlike the rest of the movement; seems replaced ? :think
> Please, experts information about the more "special" examples to look for, and their pitfalls, is highly appreciated ! :-!


100% replaced balance bridge. The other plates all have a beveled edge, but the balance bridge is a straight edge, that is a dead giveaway.

Condition-wise, this one is maybe a 6/10. There are some absolutely fantastic ones out there for sub-$100. This is a common, later model, with bar indices; I prefer the rare early versions, which I think are better designed. White dial ones command a premium, because they are extremely difficult to find in good condition.

I see that Avidfan linked to that older thread, glad to see it getting some use!


----------



## EndeavourDK

bpmurray said:


> 100% replaced balance bridge. The other plates all have a beveled edge, but the balance bridge is a straight edge, that is a dead giveaway.
> 
> Condition-wise, this one is maybe a 6/10. There are some absolutely fantastic ones out there for sub-$100. This is a common, later model, with bar indices; I prefer the rare early versions, which I think are better designed. White dial ones command a premium, because they are extremely difficult to find in good condition.
> 
> I see that Avidfan linked to that older thread, glad to see it getting some use!


Thank you .... ;-)
Yes the balance bridge was quite "obvious" and for sure a no go.
I've been reading the very educational thread (many thanks to the initiator (you ) and the contributors :-!) and are now more aware were to look for. Also now having comparison material is very nice.
For me the prices of these earlier types are too high to take just a gamble and don't want to buy before I'm absolutely sure. I may run it past the experts before buying ;-) Of course my very first $18 (not precise a Komandirskie, but his civil brother) was an exception based upon more a finders luck than knowledge: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/q-expertise-thread-watch-legit-franken-part-3-a-4977267-21.html
(I'm still awaiting reception :roll
All very interesting stuff and a new challenge. Thanks


----------



## schnurrp

VWatchie said:


> Someone should report these watches to eBay when marketed, as in this case, as the original.


There are not enough hours in the day, comrade. Many have ads worded cleverly to bypass the "original" designation or the seller may actually believe in the originality of the piece. You're doing the right thing by asking questions _before_ buying.


----------



## Kamburov

That 2234 bridge should be like this, I guess








and the case back is from a 2214. I'm not sure the 2234 have the caliber stamped on the back. 
These early komandirskie are great, hope you get a good deal. 
There is a comrade in the forum that owns almost every model produced, staggering collection! Haven't seen him lately, his opinion would be most valuable.
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> That 2234 bridge should be like this, I guess
> View attachment 14347163
> 
> 
> and the case back is from a 2214. I'm not sure the 2234 have the caliber stamped on the back.
> These early komandirskie are great, hope you get a good deal.
> There is a comrade in the forum that owns almost every model produced, staggering collection! Haven't seen him lately, his opinion would be most valuable.
> Ivan


Correct. The back is w/o a number and has 
'Противоударные' and 'Пылевлагонепроницаемые'.


----------



## Odessa200

Odessa200 said:


> Kamburov said:
> 
> 
> 
> That 2234 bridge should be like this, I guess
> View attachment 14347163
> 
> 
> and the case back is from a 2214. I'm not sure the 2234 have the caliber stamped on the back.
> These early komandirskie are great, hope you get a good deal.
> There is a comrade in the forum that owns almost every model produced, staggering collection! Haven't seen him lately, his opinion would be most valuable.
> Ivan
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. The back is w/o a number and has
> 'Противоударные' and 'Пылевлагонепроницаемые'.
Click to expand...

Actually, the above is based on what I saw before. But that picked my interest and I had found, in one of my books, I found that there was a cover with the caliber number!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> Actually, the above is based on what I saw before. But that picked my interest and I had found, in one of my books, I found that there was a cover with the caliber number!


Perhaps this information can be added to the Early Generation Komandirskie's "compilation" thread for future reference ? :think:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html


----------



## EndeavourDK

For US$20 I couldn't resist this 1969 Komandirskie and hopefully this is going to be another interesting project b-) ...... I've to see what's going on with & what can be saved of the dial.
The housing, crystal, hands, crown and movement (advertised as a runner) seem okay :think:
If the dial discoloring, the "stripes & dots" are due to "natural" causes, that would have its charm too ......
According to the seller (my Russian is a bit "rusty") the back-cover reads: "Signed from Command for good success in military service 1969". I'm not sure if it written like that or his interpretation of the inscription ?

Do the Experts have any authenticity remarks and/or suggestions about the condition of the dial; natural or "vandalism" ??
Hope to hear .... ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> For US$20 I couldn't resist this 1969 Komandirskie and hopefully this is going to be another interesting project
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...... I've to see what's going on with & what can be saved of the dial.
> The housing, crystal, hands, crown and movement (advertised as a runner) seem okay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the dial discoloring, the "stripes & dots" are due to "natural" causes, that would have it's charm too ......
> According to the seller (my Russian is a bit "rusty") the back-cover reads: "Signed from Command for good success in military service 1969". I'm not sure if it written like that or his interpretation of the inscription ?
> 
> Do the Experts have any authenticity remarks and/or suggestions about the condition of the dial; natural or "vandalism" ??
> Hope to hear ....


Great deal for $20. I would be tempted as well ?
I would say the dial is naturally damaged. Maybe was exposed to heat or cold that caused this paint cracks/stripes. Anyway, the effect is quite pleasant and I would just keep it as is.

The balance seemed to be replaced. It should look differently. The rest seems to be in order.

The question is: is this 2214 or 2234 movement? Does it hack? Back has 2214...

Translation for the inscription:
To Voevoda V.A. 
For achievements in service
From commanders of the military unit 62957
Date


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> Great deal for $20. I would be tempted as well &#55357;&#56898;
> I would say the dial is naturally damaged. Maybe was exposed to heat or cold that caused this paint cracks/stripes. Anyway, the effect is quite pleasant and I would just keep it as is.
> 
> The balance seemed to be replaced. It should look differently. The rest seems to be in order.
> 
> The question is: is this 2214 or 2234 movement? Does it hack? Back has 2214...
> 
> Translation for the inscription:
> To Voevoda V.A.
> For achievements in service
> From commanders of the military unit 62957
> Date


Thank you very much ..... and it starts to sound good ! 

I've no idea whether the balance has been replaced, no knowledge about those details yet.

That was actually a question I had; can one see if the movement is a 2214 or a 2234? It there a little "telltale" ? (like with the Poljot 3133 and the 31659, you just need to know where to look ;-))

If the dial discoloring is indeed due to natural causes than yes, I'll surely leave it like that ! As said, it adds to the charm.
One never knows for sure, but looking at the overall condition of the watch, I've not much doubt that the back-cover belongs to the watch and that the watch has indeed been a valuable gift to Mr.Voevoda; through the years gently treated & worn. It makes it also, next to the 3AKA3, a truly military watch.
Perhaps somebody can find some more information about Mr. Voevoda? (I wouldn't mind doing it myself, but the information would most likely be in Russian (?)).

Anyway, I'm very excited that I stumbled over this watch :-! It was probably the condition of the dial which did put people off, it was just sitting there on eBay ....... :roll: b-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> The balance seemed to be replaced. It should look differently. The rest seems to be in order.


I just had a look in my 22xx goodies box and found already three balances, with the pivots intact, which may be of the correct type :think:
If the balance was changed out at some point in time, at least it was done with an older type.
Clearly, if I'm going to change out, the ones found in my goodies box need, same as the movement, TLC and servicing ;-)

BTW, note the different angle of the bottom balance assembly hairspring stud mounting ... and two screws "missing" in the bottom balance wheel (I don't have any balance poising equipment, so I won't be able to find out whether they are lost or deliberately taken out)


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great deal for $20. I would be tempted as well ��
> I would say the dial is naturally damaged. Maybe was exposed to heat or cold that caused this paint cracks/stripes. Anyway, the effect is quite pleasant and I would just keep it as is.
> 
> The balance seemed to be replaced. It should look differently. The rest seems to be in order.
> 
> The question is: is this 2214 or 2234 movement? Does it hack? Back has 2214...
> 
> Translation for the inscription:
> To Voevoda V.A.
> For achievements in service
> From commanders of the military unit 62957
> Date
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you very much ..... and it starts to sound good !
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've no idea whether the balance has been replaced, no knowledge about those details yet.
> 
> That was actually a question I had; can one see if the movement is a 2214 or a 2234? It there a little "telltale" ? (like with the Poljot 3133 and the 31659, you just need to know where to look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> If the dial discoloring is indeed due to natural causes than yes, I'll surely leave it like that ! As said, it adds to the charm.
> One never knows for sure, but looking at the overall condition of the watch, I've not much doubt that the back-cover belongs to the watch and that the watch has indeed been a valuable gift to Mr.Voevoda; through the years gently treated & worn. It makes it also, next to the 3AKA3, a truly military watch.
> Perhaps somebody can find some more information about Mr. Voevoda? (I wouldn't mind doing it myself, but the information would most likely be in Russian (?)).
> 
> Anyway, I'm very excited that I stumbled over this watch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was probably the condition of the dial which did put people off, it was just sitting there on eBay .......
Click to expand...

I am attaching 3 images. 1 shows the balance cock that, as far as I know, should be in suck old Komandirskie. 
2nd image is NOT Komandirskie but Spottivnie. It shown how the hacking is done: once the pressure is removed from the blue point (stem is pulled out) the hack is pushed against the balance (red arrow) by the spring. This hack ending (curved wire) can be visible next to the balance if a photo is taken at the right angle and clear enough. Then you can say it is 2234 or not. On the 3rd image, you can see a tiny part of the hack. Also, to accommodate the hacking lever, the bridge is raised a bit and the jewels have a deeper settings. But that is somewhat hard to spot. At least for me. I hope this helps.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> I am attaching 3 images. 1 shows the balance cock that, as far as I know, should be in suck old Komandirskie.
> 2nd image is NOT Komandirskie but Spottivnie. It shown how the hacking is done: once the pressure is removed from the blue point (stem is pulled out) the hack is pushed against the balance (red arrow) by the spring. This hack ending (curved wire) can be visible next to the balance if a photo is taken at the right angle and clear enough. Then you can say it is 2234 or not. On the 3rd image, you can see a tiny part of the hack. Also, to accommodate the hacking lever, the bridge is raised a bit and the jewels have a deeper settings. But that is somewhat hard to spot. At least for me. I hope this helps.


Yes, that certainly helps ! Thank you very much for the time taken to explain this to me :-! I'm sure that as soon as I strip a 2234 it becomes even more clear and "obvious".
I can't see from the sellers pictures whether the train-bridge is slightly raised and the jewels are set a bit deeper :think: 
Reading the new post comrade bpmurray, which he just in the "Early generation Komandirskie" thread posted, I get the impression that "my" movement has to be a 2234 or can it also be a 2214?

To be honest, I think what you just posted, and your post before (catalogue picture), belongs also in the "Early generation Komandirskie" thread. It is very nice information in this thread, but very valuable & educative information (too valuable) for just in this thread, possible hard to find back in the future, never mind as reference material all in one thread.
I find the "Early generation Komandirskie" thread a fantastic compilation and of great value |>|> So hopefully you are willing to transfer the information to that thread as well ..... :think:


----------



## mimir

Hi guys, first post in the forum, nice to meet you all!
I was visiting some town in west Siberia and picked up these Komandirskie for a good price. I'm trying to understand if it is a frankenwatch. first of all, the case back is a snap on and doesn't have the usual ring seal I see on other models of the watch. Second, the hands definitely don't look original. Can anyone shed more light on the watch please?


----------



## bpmurray

mimir said:


> Hi guys, first post in the forum, nice to meet you all!
> I was visiting some town in west Siberia and picked up these Komandirskie for a good price. I'm trying to understand if it is a frankenwatch. first of all, the case back is a snap on and doesn't have the usual ring seal I see on other models of the watch. Second, the hands definitely don't look original. Can anyone shed more light on the watch please?


Sorry to bring bad news, but definitely a frankenwatch. The dial is to a 1970's Komandirskie, but the hands and case are to something else entirely. Given that the date ring is incorrect for a Komandirskie of this era (should be red font), I think the movement is a replacement too. It's possible that the case and movement originally came together, and the dial/hands are a later swap.


----------



## IsItTime2Go

Hello all, 1st post, I've been interested in getting my first Russian watch but there appears to be more fakes than real Russians...not sure why as I'm new to Russians. The below pictures are from an ebay sell. The seller "hessfineauctions (117246)" has a good ebay reputation but not sure about the watch.
If this is fake I may get the STRELA TR42CYM from an AD which belongs to the "TRIBUTE" line.
Is it real or fake?
Vintage Strela Sekonda Poljot 3017cal 19j Mens Russian Chronograph Steel Watch


----------



## Odessa200

IsItTime2Go said:


> Hello all, 1st post, I've been interested in getting my first Russian watch but there appears to be more fakes than real Russians...not sure why as I'm new to Russians. The below pictures are from an ebay sell. The seller "hessfineauctions (117246)" has a good ebay reputation but not sure about the watch.
> If this is fake I may get the STRELA TR42CYM from an AD which belongs to the "TRIBUTE" line.
> Is it real or fake?
> Vintage Strela Sekonda Poljot 3017cal 19j Mens Russian Chronograph Steel Watch
> View attachment 14350631
> 
> View attachment 14350633
> 
> View attachment 14350635
> 
> View attachment 14350637
> 
> View attachment 14350639


As far as I can see, this is real. Dial, hands, movement: real. Maybe some other people will opine if the movement has replaced parts, etc. but this seem like a good watch.


----------



## bpmurray

Odessa200 said:


> As far as I can see, this is real. Dial, hands, movement: real. Maybe some other people will opine if the movement has replaced parts, etc. but this seem like a good watch.


Agreed, I think this is just fine. I'd expect to see the movement stamp in Cyrillic, but this one isn't necessarily incorrect. This is a fairly late Cyrillic dial, so entirely possible that production had shifted to Latin-scripted movement stamps by the time this watch was assembled.

Just for the original inquirer's own information, the listing itself is incorrect in numerous ways. First, this watch is not steel, but is chrome-plated brass. You can see the plating starting to come away around the lugs especially. If you wear this too much, especially in hot, humid weather, the sweat from your wrist will eventually degrade the plating even further. Second, this watch is from the mid to late 1960's, not 1950's.

Condition-wise, I'd rank this about a 4/10. The dial is seriously beat up, and it looks like the tip of the chronograph hand has broken off. The positives for this watch are that the dial version is one of the most collectible, because of the Cyrillic script and the "KL 1" stamp. Also, 3017 chronographs are an absolute pleasure to wear -- perfectly sized, in my opinion. As of now, the price is still quite good, but keep in mind that having a chronograph serviced can be quite expensive. If you win this watch, I'd suggest requesting assistance from the forum as a whole for a preemptive service (you will probably have to ship the watch abroad).

Good luck!


----------



## mimir

bpmurray said:


> Sorry to bring bad news, but definitely a frankenwatch. The dial is to a 1970's Komandirskie, but the hands and case are to something else entirely. Given that the date ring is incorrect for a Komandirskie of this era (should be red font), I think the movement is a replacement too. It's possible that the case and movement originally came together, and the dial/hands are a later swap.


Thanks for the info! Any idea what the case could be from? It looks like a Komandirskie case but the snap back is weird.


----------



## dropmyload

I have seen this watch and was wondering if it looks legit. Can't find a Slava medical so this is the next best thing. Any thoughts?


----------



## EndeavourDK

dropmyload said:


> I have seen this watch and was wondering if it looks legit. Can't find a Slava medical so this is the next best thing. Any thoughts?


Sorry, I can't help you with this one, but enlarging the quartz movement picture, if fake, it seems quite nicely faked.


----------



## schnurrp

mimir said:


> Thanks for the info! Any idea what the case could be from? It looks like a Komandirskie case but the snap back is weird.


2214 Mir.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Also, to accommodate the hacking lever, the bridge is raised a bit and the jewels have a deeper settings.


I don't think so. If the balance wheel will pass under the bridge so will the stopping spring.

Similarly, the underside of the thicker bridge on the hacking 41-m is at the same level as the thin bridge and, in fact, I have seen hacking 41-ms made up with conventional bridges.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/i-understand-how-2608-41m-movement-hacks-807538.html

It appears to me that any changes made occurred in the milling of the base of the 2234 movement to accommodate the connection between the spring loaded stopping spring lever and the crown shaft end.


----------



## schnurrp

dropmyload said:


> I have seen this watch and was wondering if it looks legit. Can't find a Slava medical so this is the next best thing. Any thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 14351381
> View attachment 14351385
> View attachment 14351387


Looks pretty good to me....rather see a red second hand but that one seems to fit well with black logo and minute marks. That is the Chaika logo on the quartz movement and Chaika was very serious about anti-magnetic protection.


----------



## Odessa200

bpmurray said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I can see, this is real. Dial, hands, movement: real. Maybe some other people will opine if the movement has replaced parts, etc. but this seem like a good watch.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, I think this is just fine. I'd expect to see the movement stamp in Cyrillic, but this one isn't necessarily incorrect. This is a fairly late Cyrillic dial, so entirely possible that production had shifted to Latin-scripted movement stamps by the time this watch was assembled.
> 
> Just for the original inquirer's own information, the listing itself is incorrect in numerous ways. First, this watch is not steel, but is chrome-plated brass. You can see the plating starting to come away around the lugs especially. If you wear this too much, especially in hot, humid weather, the sweat from your wrist will eventually degrade the plating even further. Second, this watch is from the mid to late 1960's, not 1950's.
> 
> Condition-wise, I'd rank this about a 4/10. The dial is seriously beat up, and it looks like the tip of the chronograph hand has broken off. The positives for this watch are that the dial version is one of the most collectible, because of the Cyrillic script and the "KL 1" stamp. Also, 3017 chronographs are an absolute pleasure to wear -- perfectly sized, in my opinion. As of now, the price is still quite good, but keep in mind that having a chronograph serviced can be quite expensive. If you win this watch, I'd suggest requesting assistance from the forum as a whole for a preemptive service (you will probably have to ship the watch abroad).
> 
> Good luck!
Click to expand...

Sold to a lucky new owner for what I think is a very reasonable price. ?


----------



## chazda1991

Hi everyone!

Could you guys verify this watch for me? I've been looking for a Kirovskie Crab for a while and the dial in this one seems like it is in pretty good condition compared to many others I have seen on eBay. My thinking is that the hands are wrong - did a Kirovskie crab ever come with a red second hand?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIROVSKI...834965?hash=item5d8f1a7795:g:P5kAAOSwP2ddN2BG

Cheers!


----------



## elsoldemayo

chazda1991 said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> Could you guys verify this watch for me? I've been looking for a Kirovskie Crab for a while and the dial in this one seems like it is in pretty good condition compared to many others I have seen on eBay. My thinking is that the hands are wrong - did a Kirovskie crab ever come with a red second hand?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KIROVSKI...834965?hash=item5d8f1a7795:g:P5kAAOSwP2ddN2BG
> 
> Cheers!


Second hand should be gold and the dial looks retouched, it's missing the text at the bottom.


----------



## dutchassasin

anyone have more information about this particular model? I know Mark had one but can't seem find it on the facsimile website.


----------



## stevarad

dutchassasin said:


> anyone have more information about this particular model? I know Mark had one but can't seem find it on the facsimile website.
> 
> View attachment 14357779


As I remember, it is from first part of 90's...

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## schnurrp

elsoldemayo said:


> Second hand should be gold and the dial looks retouched, it's missing the text at the bottom.


Agree. Also second hand tail is incorrect and to me the whole dial and maybe even the inner bezel has been repainted. Crown is incorrect.


----------



## chazda1991

schnurrp said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second hand should be gold and the dial looks retouched, it's missing the text at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. Also second hand tail is incorrect and to me the whole dial and maybe even the inner bezel has been repainted. Crown is incorrect.
> 
> View attachment 14357983
Click to expand...

Thought it looked too clean! Thanks both of you for your advice.

Any idea on what I should be spending for a good condition kirovskie crab?


----------



## chazda1991

One more for this evening if you don't mind.

Is this real at all? I've never seen another watch on eBay that looks similar.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/233299163944

The seller sent me a photo of the mechanism and that seemed fine - it had the B marking inside.


----------



## Odessa200

chazda1991 said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second hand should be gold and the dial looks retouched, it's missing the text at the bottom.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree. Also second hand tail is incorrect and to me the whole dial and maybe even the inner bezel has been repainted. Crown is incorrect.
> 
> View attachment 14357983
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thought it looked too clean! Thanks both of you for your advice.
> 
> Any idea on what I should be spending for a good condition kirovskie crab?
Click to expand...

About 120-150$. But you can get lucky and get for 80$...


----------



## MAF66

Hi to all, I would welcome opnions on this early 710696 that I'm looking at. Things I'm not sure about are red date numbers, flat crown and case back...

















here's what I believe to be the 1980 catalogue pic, looks to have a round crown?









Thanks, Marlon


----------



## MAF66

sorry wrong case back pic!


----------



## MAF66

Right case back...


----------



## Avidfan

chazda1991 said:


> One more for this evening if you don't mind.
> 
> Is this real at all? I've never seen another watch on eBay that looks similar.
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/233299163944
> 
> The seller sent me a photo of the mechanism and that seemed fine - it had the B marking inside.











Looks fine to me, comrade capannelle has a blue dial example on his site: 2409 | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## Avidfan

MAF66 said:


> Hi to all, I would welcome opnions on this early 710696 that I'm looking at. Things I'm not sure about are red date numbers, flat crown and case back..


I've never seen one with a red calendar font before :think: but these come in two different cases, 2414A or 2416b movements, paddle or arrow hands, round or flat crown and with various case backs.

There are lots of threads on the "Old Ministry" on f/10 such as this: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/first-generation-vostok-amphibia-ministry-437916.html

More examples here: Amphibia Cassa 710 ministry | Vostok Amphibia CCCP

Hopefully other comrades will have more information....


----------



## SuffolkGerryW

Hi, is this worthwhile? Tempted, as it's 'different', but very suspicious looking at the face (looks a poor hand paint)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mend-vin...362557?hash=item1efe0e33fd:g:yuAAAOSwUaVdKg16


----------



## digdug

I've been looking at 24 hour watches lately, and they've not been as easy to come by as I thought they would be. What do you all think of this one? It's coming from a dealer with a bunch of "NOS" which makes me nervous. When were these made? Any other recommendations for 24 hour watches.


----------



## Odessa200

SuffolkGerryW said:


> Hi, is this worthwhile? Tempted, as it's 'different', but very suspicious looking at the face (looks a poor hand paint)
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mend-vin...362557?hash=item1efe0e33fd:g:yuAAAOSwUaVdKg16


I think it is just a low resolution photo. No? Looks ok to me.


----------



## Odessa200

digdug said:


> I've been looking at 24 hour watches lately, and they've not been as easy to come by as I thought they would be. What do you all think of this one? It's coming from a dealer with a bunch of "NOS" which makes me nervous. When were these made? Any other recommendations for 24 hour watches.
> 
> View attachment 14358717
> 
> 
> View attachment 14358719


Not an expert in these watches (or any watches ? ) but to me, this looks like a Soviet time movement (late 80s) is placed in a new body. The exterior is all new (not sure if Russian or Chinese). Inside is a solid 24h movement. For collection, I would pass. To wear: if you like the exterior then 'why not'.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> But you can get lucky and get for 80$...


Pretty close, comrade:


----------



## Utva_56

Hi experts ,
would like to get opinion on this Cornavin watch , equiped with Zim (Pobeda) 2602 movement. It looks like dail and movement has been re-cased. Case condition looks as "new".
Thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

Utva_56 said:


> Hi experts ,
> would like to get opinion on this Cornavin watch , equiped with Zim (Pobeda) 2602 movement. It looks like dail and movement has been re-cased. Case condition looks as "new".
> Thanks.
> View attachment 14359343
> 
> View attachment 14359345
> 
> View attachment 14359347
> 
> View attachment 14359349


I may be wrong but this looks fake to me. A)this is a low level Zim movement. Carnavin watches typically have a more advanced movement 
B) dial printing looks home made. 
Sorry


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> I may be wrong but this looks fake to me. A)this is a low level Zim movement. Carnavin watches typically have a more advanced movement
> B) dial printing looks home made.
> Sorry


This is one of those watches that will be difficult to authenticate unless another owner or two show up with identical ones. I was suspicious of the "lumed" hands on a non-lumed dial until I searched some images on the internet and was reminded this hand treatment was not that rare on Zims, possibly the maker behind this cornavin. The dial and case are classic Zim. Good chance it's legit, in my opinion, but good luck proving it.

View attachment 14359787


View attachment 14359789


View attachment 14359791


View attachment 14359795


View attachment 14359825
[/QUOTE]


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I may be wrong but this looks fake to me. A)this is a low level Zim movement. Carnavin watches typically have a more advanced movement
> B) dial printing looks home made.
> Sorry
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of those watches that will be difficult to authenticate unless another owner or two show up with identical ones. I was suspicious of the "lumed" hands on a non-lumed dial until I searched some images on the internet and was reminded this hand treatment was not that rare on Zims, possibly the maker behind this cornavin. The dial and case are classic Zim. Good chance it's legit, in my opinion, but good luck proving it.
> 
> View attachment 14359787
> 
> 
> View attachment 14359789
> 
> 
> View attachment 14359791
> 
> 
> View attachment 14359795
> 
> 
> View attachment 14359825
Click to expand...

[/QUOTE]

I see 2 more like this on ebay. maybe legit. Transition time?


----------



## digdug

Odessa200 said:


> Not an expert in these watches (or any watches ? ) but to me, this looks like a Soviet time movement (late 80s) is placed in a new body. The exterior is all new (not sure if Russian or Chinese). Inside is a solid 24h movement. For collection, I would pass. To wear: if you like the exterior then 'why not'.


I like the way it looks for sure, but to me, the price is more a collection price ($130) than a Franken/counterfeit price. What makes me wonder is that the seller has other watches posted in similar condition that would not have any reason to be counterfeited like this one.


----------



## Odessa200

digdug said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not an expert in these watches (or any watches ? ) but to me, this looks like a Soviet time movement (late 80s) is placed in a new body. The exterior is all new (not sure if Russian or Chinese). Inside is a solid 24h movement. For collection, I would pass. To wear: if you like the exterior then 'why not'.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the way it looks for sure, but to me, the price is more a collection price ($130) than a Franken/counterfeit price. What makes me wonder is that the seller has other watches posted in similar condition that would not have any reason to be counterfeited like this one.
> 
> View attachment 14360715
> 
> View attachment 14360717
Click to expand...

No sure I follow. Pretty much every Russian/Soviet watch was faked. Every. And there are fakes of fakes ?. What does not lane sense to fake for someone is totally worth faking for someone else ?


----------



## Utva_56

Ref: Cornavin ZIM
@ Schnurrp and Odessa
Thanks guys , will search for more information. On the other side like the look of the watch.


----------



## digdug

Odessa200 said:


> No sure I follow. Pretty much every Russian/Soviet watch was faked. Every. And there are fakes of fakes &#55357;&#56898;. What does not lane sense to fake for someone is totally worth faking for someone else &#55357;&#56898;


Maybe it's just me, but I think that someone interested in counterfeiting something to sell would be interested in making something that would appeal to a broad group of people. I know there are a lot of fakes which is why I'm interested to know if these are. They seem legitimate to me, and I would like to know what looks wrong on them other than they look too good for their age.


----------



## EndeavourDK

As for the 1992 Sweden - Russia watch; I've seen more of those dials. They may very well have come in several housings (?) and this Komandirskie Amphibian (Komandirskie hour&minute hand, Amphibian paddle seconds-hand & Amphibian housing) watch may very well be legit (?). I guess it's this $69.90 (make lower offer) on eBay: https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/NOS-uni...493283?hash=item23c118f3a3:g:9-8AAOSwtLpdKFDs

Poljot also joint the event .....


----------



## Kamburov

Utva_56 said:


> Hi experts ,
> would like to get opinion on this Cornavin watch , equiped with Zim (Pobeda) 2602 movement. It looks like dail and movement has been re-cased. Case condition looks as "new".
> Thanks.


I share your thought on the recasing. I respectfully disagree with comrade Odessa on A - Zims being branded as cornavins, there are quite a few of them, but I agree with him on B - print looks reddish and sloppy as opposed to the black minute markers. The authentic ones print looks crisp and black. This Zim model is catalogued in a square case...















... and with hands filled with black paint (don't think lume ever used on zims, schnurrp).
If I take an educated guess, the original zim/cornavin with this dial should be:
1. In a square gold-plated case 
2. Black paint filled hands
3. Crisp black print on the dial
and ...
4. CORNAVIN signed case back.

Don't know just how franken is this watch, but I think it's still franken to some extent.
Ivan


----------



## Utva_56

Thanks Ivan for your input.
I have looked at ZIM cataloque 1983. Dial is not matching round case (2602/823361k) , as you noted should be in sq. case.









square case I found on etsy. Case back is with Cornavin signature.















Most likely a combination of the original parts?.Dial modern-day copy?.


----------



## Kamburov

Utva_56 said:


> square case I found on etsy. Case back is with Cornavin signature.
> Most likely a combination of the original parts?.Dial modern-day copy?.


Yeah, that's more like it. 
Probably a combination of original parts, as you say. Dial is Zim alright, doesn't look like a copy. I don't know why it looks reddish and fading. Could be a failed attempt at cleaning the central part. Using a Zim dial to reprint it as Cornavin is a possibility, but I doubt it. Why put so much effort into a zim?
A sloppy dial clean job is my best guess. It's hard to say how many zims were used to make this one.


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

I'm curious about your thoughts on the dial of the watch below. Looks to be 1st Moscow and pre -963 because of the diamond logo inside the watch, but I am unsure about the logo on the watch dial. I'm not sure which brand it is. Thank you for looking at this.


----------



## schnurrp

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> I'm curious about your thoughts on the dial of the watch below. Looks to be 1st Moscow and pre -963 because of the diamond logo inside the watch, but I am unsure about the logo on the watch dial. I'm not sure which brand it is. Thank you for looking at this.
> 
> View attachment 14362425
> 
> 
> View attachment 14362429
> 
> 
> View attachment 14362431


Good except perhaps crown and crystal, imho.

Chrome case version:


----------



## AaParker

@schnurrp 

Thank you. I think I'll get it and start looking for a crown and crystal. Do you know what brands had that particular crystal? Crown looks like a Kirovskie.


----------



## digdug

EndeavourDK said:


> As for the 1992 Sweden - Russia watch; I've seen more of those dials. They may very well have come in several housings (?) and this Komandirskie Amphibian (Komandirskie hour&minute hand, Amphibian paddle seconds-hand & Amphibian housing) watch may very well be legit (?). I guess it's this $69.90 (make lower offer) on eBay: https://www.ebay.com.my/itm/NOS-uni...493283?hash=item23c118f3a3:g:9-8AAOSwtLpdKFDs
> 
> Poljot also joint the event .....


Thanks for the info! I found the seller on Etsy, but it looks like he posted the same inventory on Ebay. He's got quite the assortment and they're all in great condition which usually makes me nervous. I haven't seen any that weren't plausible yet, though I'm no expert.


----------



## schnurrp

AaParker said:


> @schnurrp
> 
> Thank you. I think I'll get it and start looking for a crown and crystal. Do you know what brands had that particular crystal? Crown looks like a Kirovskie.


The gold-plated kirovskie crown may be hard to find, comrade, and a proper crystal, too. I usually look for parts watches when I want make these changes. Maybe some others will have better suggestions.

Good luck!


----------



## pmwas

And the brand is... Poljot. It is a Poljot Class 1 (KL 1 under the Poljot in script font) watch - a nice item from the 60s. 
It was the 'space age' time when Russian watches were given 'space' names - Poljot means simply Flight in English.


----------



## AaParker

Thank you. I do like the logo. A bit like a Vympel.


----------



## pmwas

Yes, same period, same maker


----------



## AaParker

Duplicate


----------



## schnurrp

pmwas said:


> And the brand is... Poljot. It is a Poljot Class 1 (KL 1 under the Poljot in script font) watch - a nice item from the 60s.
> It was the 'space age' time when Russian watches were given 'space' names - Poljot means simply Flight in English.


Yes, and with sputnik embellishment:


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> Yes, and with sputnik embellishment:
> View attachment 14362921


And "Rocket to the moon":


----------



## Kamburov

aaand...


----------



## pmwas

schnurrp said:


> And "Rocket to the moon":
> View attachment 14362951


AFAIK that... crashed, didn't it  ?


----------



## Kamburov

pmwas said:


> AFAIK that... crashed, didn't it  ?


... on the moon though ;-)


----------



## arkitec

Were these plastic spacer rings a product of the time or something of a more recent replacement? This is a late 80s/early 90s watch.


----------



## schnurrp

arkitec said:


> Were these plastic spacer rings a product of the time or something of a more recent replacement? This is a late 80s/early 90s watch.
> 
> View attachment 14364017


Product of the time.


----------



## arkitec

schnurrp said:


> Product of the time.


I've seen this plastic spacer in all colours such as black, white, and clear. I guess they are all just product of the time? But I notice that the same model will have different spacers from different sellers and some is still metal. That is why I worry the plastic ones are fraken. Same model:









Was the switch to plastic to save weight or reduce cost?

I found some of these clear spacers to have green residue on them.I'm guessing that's some sort of moisture damage?


----------



## arkitec

The hands look out of place. Any idea what the original is suppose to look like?


----------



## SunnyOrange

arkitec said:


> The hands look out of place. Any idea what the original is suppose to look like?


Hi!

I recently started the thread about Slava watch I own. It has similar shape to the one you shown, so maybe the right hands should look like this :


----------



## Kamburov

The hands are different than both sets posted. The original are longer, slimmer, with chumfered edges at the tip. Like these, on the black one


----------



## arkitec

Thoughts on this one? The lugs and case seem a bit odd?


----------



## Avidfan

arkitec said:


> Thoughts on this one? The lugs and case seem a bit odd?


It's a type 54 case as found in the 1990 Vostok catalogue:


----------



## arkitec

Avidfan said:


> It's a type 54 case as found in the 1990 Vostok catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 14366263


Thanks. All original then?


----------



## Avidfan

arkitec said:


> Thanks. All original then?


As you can see the second hand is not lumed as in the catalogue image but I would call your example an acceptable variation.


----------



## arkitec

Avidfan said:


> As you can see the second hand is not lumed as in the catalogue image but I would call your example an acceptable variation.


Thanks for pointing out the hands. At first I thought the dial was damaged as the one-directional gradient was odd but I started to see it in other examples too.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello everyone I hope everyone is fine. I have a watch that came in today and I need to have it authenticated by our esteemed panel of experts. It is a Paketa BIG ZERO.
As always thank you for your time and opinions, most *****in regards to one and all, James.


----------



## schnurrp

jimzilla said:


> Hello everyone I hope everyone is fine. I have a watch that came in today and I need to have it authenticated by our esteemed panel of experts. It is a Paketa BIG ZERO.
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, most *****in regards to one and all, James.


What you've shown looks good to me. Just to be sure would like to see a movement picture and a side view of the crystal to confirm it's the flat one usually found with that case.


----------



## peterki

jimzilla said:


> Hello everyone I hope everyone is fine. I have a watch that came in today and I need to have it authenticated by our esteemed panel of experts. It is a Paketa BIG ZERO.
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, most *****in regards to one and all, James.


Unless I am mistaken, it is a 60 dollars watch, so what are your worries based on? https://wornandwound.com/affordable-vintage-raketa-big-zero/


----------



## Odessa200

peterki said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello everyone I hope everyone is fine. I have a watch that came in today and I need to have it authenticated by our esteemed panel of experts. It is a Paketa BIG ZERO.
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, most *****in regards to one and all, James.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, it is a 60 dollars watch, so what are your worries based on? https://wornandwound.com/affordable-vintage-raketa-big-zero/
Click to expand...

Is there some magic $ threshold that delineates never faked from faked? ?. This particular watch is faked ALL the time and sold for 30, 50, ..100, 150$, etc


----------



## peterki

My point was that I see no reason to fake a 60 dollars watch, but perhaps i am missing something


----------



## Odessa200

peterki said:


> My point was that I see no reason to fake a 60 dollars watch, but perhaps i am missing something


Definitely missing 🙂. Post soviet republics are quote different from the west world (income wise). Not all places. Moscow is different 🙂 60$ can be a monthly income for someone. Lets see you need to feed your family and have an option to produce a watch for $10 and sell at $60 and that can equal to your monthly income. Why would you not do that?
Not to mention that there are Chinese factories that can make a Rolex fake for $50.... the difference is that when you buy a Rolex for $50 you know it is fake. When you buy Raketa for same money you may think you are buying a real deal. End result is same.


----------



## Kamburov

peterki said:


> My point was that I see no reason to fake a 60 dollars watch, but perhaps i am missing something


It is an iconic watch and it's often faked and frankend. 
Second schnurrp's opinion.
Ivan


----------



## peterki

Odessa200 said:


> Definitely missing 🙂. Post soviet republics are quote different from the west world (income wise). Not all places. Moscow is different 🙂 60$ can be a monthly income for someone. Lets see you need to feed your family and have an option to produce a watch for $10 and sell at $60 and that can equal to your monthly income. Why would you not do that?
> Not to mention that there are Chinese factories that can make a Rolex fake for $50.... the difference is that when you buy a Rolex for $50 you know it is fake. When you buy Raketa for same money you may think you are buying a real deal. End result is same.


Fair enough, understand your point


----------



## jimzilla

peterki said:


> Unless I am mistaken, it is a 60 dollars watch, so what are your worries based on? https://wornandwound.com/affordable-vintage-raketa-big-zero/


I did not know there was a dollar amount associated on the watch to get an opinion on authenticity. Let me know where to find.............. 
"Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3 for watches $60.00 or less".......... and I will post it there. :-!
Seriously though, I don't care if it is a $5.00 dollar watch I just enjoy wearing a piece of Russian history on my wrist and it is nice to know if it's real or fake.


----------



## thomasmuir1125

ZIM PODEBA, seller says it's from the 70s, does this look legit? I thought ZIM and POBEDA were two different things. Thanks!


----------



## schnurrp

thomasmuir1125 said:


> ZIM PODEBA, seller says it's from the 70s, does this look legit? I thought ZIM and POBEDA were two different things. Thanks!
> View attachment 14367183
> View attachment 14367185
> View attachment 14367187
> View attachment 14367191


The dial, hands and movement with its replaced balance assembly are authentic Zim, in my opinion, I'm just not sure about that "toothed" case. Maybe someone has one like it to share.

I don't know why "Pobeda" is so often used as a watch type. It could be because one of the very first conventional sized soviet wristwatches had the k-26 sub-second 2602 movement and had "Pobeda" or "Victory" on its dial to commemorate the winning of WWII.

However several different important soviet watch factories made watches that had "Pobeda" on the dial but in all other ways were similar to their offerings with different dials.

If someone is calling that Zim a "Pobeda" it's probably because it has the k-26 sub-second movement like the original "Pobeda" (and many, many, other soviet watches) although many "Pobeda"-dialed watches were produced with central second hand 41-m movements.


----------



## thomasmuir1125

schnurrp said:


> The dial, hands and movement with its replaced balance assembly are authentic Zim, in my opinion, I'm just not sure about that "toothed" case. Maybe someone has one like it to share.
> 
> I don't know why "Pobeda" is so often used as a watch type. It could be because one of the very first conventional sized soviet wristwatches had the k-26 sub-second 2602 movement and had "Pobeda" or "Victory" on its dial to commemorate the winning of WWII.
> 
> However several different important soviet watch factories made watches that had "Pobeda" on the dial but in all other ways were similar to their offerings with different dials.
> 
> If someone is calling that Zim a "Pobeda" it's probably because it has the k-26 sub-second movement like the original "Pobeda" (and many, many, other soviet watches) although many "Pobeda"-dialed watches were produced with central second hand 41-m movements.


I did some research and looked around eBay, and it looks like the toothed case was used on Pobeda watches from around the same period of time. Even if this particular watch didn't originally come with this case, the case has patina and is time period/brand accurate, so it isn't a deal breaker for me.


----------



## Utva_56

@Pobeda with Zim 2602 movement:








Same style case.









Look at Sekond's timewatches of the USSR , under Zim-Pobeda.


----------



## Kamburov

This front loader case can take both 2602 and 2608. True, it's been seen with pobedas, but it's not well documented. The gold hands/gold markers/gold case logic doesn't work with them either. With pobedas and zims anything can fit into anything , so it's hard to prove deffinate authenticity if the model is not catalogued. 
If it's close enough for you, you like the watch and price is good, then it's up to you.
Ivan

PS: schnurrp, I think sellers calling them ZIM POBEDA is actually clever. It is exactly what it says, and may contain parts of both.


----------



## Kamburov

Utva_56 said:


> @Pobeda with Zim 2602 movement:
> Same style case.


Same style, but not the same case. This one is a newer version, produced in the mid 80s (Russia). Notice the high bezel.
No guarantee the above watch is authentic. It might be, but all watches I've seen so far in this case have been made in Russia.
Ivan


----------



## Kalashnikov-74

Any input on this Raketa would be appreciated. I am thinking of picking it up but I am not used to seeing them with the years showing in the 2000's. Anything that stands out as not being correct? Thanks


----------



## stevarad

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> Any input on this Raketa would be appreciated. I am thinking of picking it up but I am not used to seeing them with the years showing in the 2000's. Anything that stands out as not being correct? Thanks
> 
> View attachment 14367949
> View attachment 14367951
> View attachment 14367953


It is Raketa perpetual calendar. Nice watch, but those hands doesn't look good. I have blue one, different hands completly. So, either I have watch with wrong hands, either that on your photo has wrong hands.









Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## stevarad

And I (want to) believe that my watch is ok...

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## schnurrp

Kalashnikov-74 said:


> Any input on this Raketa would be appreciated. I am thinking of picking it up but I am not used to seeing them with the years showing in the 2000's. Anything that stands out as not being correct? Thanks
> 
> View attachment 14367949
> View attachment 14367951
> View attachment 14367953


Appears to have been made in Russia after the fall of CCCP. Looks okay except I would rather see nickel-plated hands.


----------



## schnurrp

.


----------



## schnurrp

stevarad said:


> And I (want to) believe that my watch is ok...
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


Sorry, comrade, these watches had "baton" hands:


----------



## stevarad

schnurrp said:


> Sorry, comrade, these watches had "baton" hands:
> 
> View attachment 14368097




Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## SunnyOrange

peterki said:


> My point was that I see no reason to fake a 60 dollars watch, but perhaps i am missing something


I understand you completely. Before I started to visit Russian forum more frequently, I thought there would be no chance and need for someone to fake Russian watch. 
I thought that counts only for very expensive, most popular brands where big profit is involved.
Something new to learn.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> stevarad said:
> 
> 
> 
> And I (want to) believe that my watch is ok...
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, comrade, these watches had "baton" hands:
> 
> View attachment 14368097
Click to expand...

Yep. This is the catalog image. Calendar in 2000 is ok. It goes up to 2010 or so. Only hands are off on the original post (not on Schurrp's version).


----------



## Chascomm

peterki said:


> Fair enough, understand your point


And welcome to the Russian watches forum, where the normal laws of economics tend to bend easily.


----------



## Chascomm

There were two calendar disks produced. The first was 1980 to 2000. The second one was 1990 to 2012.


----------



## peterki

Chascomm said:


> And welcome to the Russian watches forum, where the normal laws of economics tend to bend easily.


Thanks! I have noticed


----------



## Kamburov

Utva_56 said:


> @Pobeda with Zim 2602 movement:
> 
> View attachment 14367581
> 
> Same style case.


I correct myself on the pobeda example you posted. It seems to be a legit late model (early 90s). I found out I used to own the blue variation of this exact model, and it was "made in ussr" too.
I guess after the closing of the factory there was enough stock left to be cased in the following years with "made in Russia" dials. Also maybe done by third parties.
Ivan


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

I was hoping someone could look at the two Raketas below. I hope they are original, but I would value your opinions before I make an offer. Thanks!

























And this one


----------



## elsoldemayo

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> I was hoping someone could look at the two Raketas below. I hope they are original, but I would value your opinions before I make an offer. Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 14380873
> 
> 
> View attachment 14380875
> 
> 
> View attachment 14380877
> 
> 
> And this one
> 
> View attachment 14380879
> 
> 
> View attachment 14380881
> 
> 
> View attachment 14380883


Pretty sure the hands on the 2nd one are wrong.


----------



## Kamburov

At least we don't have to guess the year, right?
The 1967 Raketa catalogue is quite rich, and quite a few "50 years of October" models, with aeroplanes or not.
Funny part is, the hands on the second one might be the only right thing.






















I might have missed something, but it looks like both of these two are mixed..


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> At least we don't have to guess the year, right?
> The 1967 Raketa catalogue is quite rich, and quite a few "50 years of October" models, with aeroplanes or not.
> Funny part is, the hands on the second one might be the only right
> 
> I might have missed something, but it looks like both of these two are mixed..


Thank you. Will wait for better examples to bid on. And I need to remember to check the catalogs!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Kamburov said:
> 
> 
> 
> At least we don't have to guess the year, right?
> The 1967 Raketa catalogue is quite rich, and quite a few "50 years of October" models, with aeroplanes or not.
> Funny part is, the hands on the second one might be the only right
> 
> I might have missed something, but it looks like both of these two are mixed..
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Will wait for better examples to bid on. And I need to remember to check the catalogs!
Click to expand...

the airplane model was done with 2 types of hands. 'Skinny' and as shown here. So the airplane is OK: just the second hand is wrong. The other model: same, Second hand is wrong

What I am not sure is the 1st model, chrome body, chrome hands and gold marks on the dial...


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> the airplane model was done with 2 types of hands. 'Skinny' and as shown here. So the airplane is OK: just the second hand is wrong. The other model: same, Second hand is wrong
> 
> What I am not sure is the 1st model, chrome body, chrome hands and gold marks on the dial...


Thank you. There's so much variety even with the catalogs!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the airplane model was done with 2 types of hands. 'Skinny' and as shown here. So the airplane is OK: just the second hand is wrong. The other model: same, Second hand is wrong
> 
> What I am not sure is the 1st model, chrome body, chrome hands and gold marks on the dial...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. There's so much variety even with the catalogs!
Click to expand...

Most models have less variations but these Raketas have quite a few...


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> I might have missed something, but it looks like both of these two are mixed..


Perfect description comrade Kamburov.


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> the airplane model was done with 2 types of hands. 'Skinny' and as shown here. So the airplane is OK: just the second hand is wrong. The other model: same, Second hand is wrong
> 
> What I am not sure is the 1st model, chrome body, chrome hands and gold marks on the dial...


With all respect, comrade Odessa, there's only one aeroplane model that corresponds to the watch AaParker asked about, and it's this one:








golden dial color, "50 years..." closer to the hands than to 6 o'clock marker, "made in ..." under the minute markers. 
Even the other golden color model is different, under closer inspection








"made in ..." above the minute markers, "50 years ..." closer to the 6 marker.

So the face belongs to model 2609A/783235, and anything different to the catalogue belongs to another watch. 
Same thing with the other one - I only found this dial on model 2609/653121, with "50 years ..." added on place of PChZ logo. If there's another model with "50 years...", then I couldn't find it, but if there is, it would have an unique model number, describing the case type that it goes with. 
Model 2609/653121 has a chrome-plated version, indeed, and that's model 2609/651121








Too bad the pic I got is monochrome, but neither case or hads are as the enquiry watch.

So it's quite simple, really. Anything else is guessing and "believing", and when I do that I'm usually wrong. Every now and then something pops up, and it's authentic and not in catalogues, but it still has or had papers and an unique model number. 
Both these watches are suspicious, to put it mildly 
Ivan


----------



## AaParker

Thank you all for your input. Given the various misgivings by the experts, I decided to pass on both of them. If you will allow me, while looking for commemorative watches, I did come across one other item that I had questions about. It is called a MIKOMS. It has 60 years (in Cyrillic) on the dial, and it has SU stamped inside, but nothing on the dial. Possibly a transition piece or completely made-up for a company or event? Not sure what MIKOMS is or what the 60 years are for. I couldn't find anything about it which I would think is not a good sign. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.


----------



## Kamburov

AaParker said:


> Thank you all for your input. Given the various misgivings by the experts, I decided to pass on both of them. If you will allow me, while looking for commemorative watches, I did come across one other item that I had questions about. It is called a MIKOMS. It has 60 years (in Cyrillic) on the dial, and it has SU stamped inside, but nothing on the dial. Possibly a transition piece or completely made-up for a company or event? Not sure what MIKOMS is or what the 60 years are for. I couldn't find anything about it which I would think is not a good sign. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.


It is a Poljot "60 years of Moscow Meatcombinat", which I guess is a Moscow meat factory. Google says it's from 1993.
I haven't checked catalogs, as I've had similar models, and this one looks right, incl. hands and crown. 
Keep in mind it's not a big watch, more on the medium size.
Actually there it is in the 1992 cat.


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> It is a Poljot "60 years of Moscow Meatcombinat", which I guess is a Moscow meat factory. Google says it's from 1993.
> I haven't checked catalogs, as I've had similar models, and this one looks right, incl. hands and crown.
> Keep in mind it's not a big watch, more on the medium size.
> Actually there it is in the 1992 cat.
> View attachment 14384199


Thank you! I couldn't find anything on it. Greatly appreciated. 😀


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the airplane model was done with 2 types of hands. 'Skinny' and as shown here. So the airplane is OK: just the second hand is wrong. The other model: same, Second hand is wrong
> 
> What I am not sure is the 1st model, chrome body, chrome hands and gold marks on the dial...
> 
> 
> 
> With all respect, comrade Odessa, there's only one aeroplane model that corresponds to the watch AaParker asked about, and it's this one:
> View attachment 14383115
> 
> 
> golden dial color, "50 years..." closer to the hands than to 6 o'clock marker, "made in ..." under the minute markers.
> Even the other golden color model is different, under closer inspection
> View attachment 14383125
> 
> 
> "made in ..." above the minute markers, "50 years ..." closer to the 6 marker.
> 
> So the face belongs to model 2609A/783235, and anything different to the catalogue belongs to another watch.
> Same thing with the other one - I only found this dial on model 2609/653121, with "50 years ..." added on place of PChZ logo. If there's another model with "50 years...", then I couldn't find it, but if there is, it would have an unique model number, describing the case type that it goes with.
> Model 2609/653121 has a chrome-plated version, indeed, and that's model 2609/651121
> View attachment 14383139
> 
> 
> Too bad the pic I got is monochrome, but neither case or hads are as the enquiry watch.
> 
> So it's quite simple, really. Anything else is guessing and "believing", and when I do that I'm usually wrong. Every now and then something pops up, and it's authentic and not in catalogues, but it still has or had papers and an unique model number.
> Both these watches are suspicious, to put it mildly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivan
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Both are suspicious. No papers, not from a reputable collector, etc. Catalogs do not have the exact combinations. Agree. I would also pass on these lots. But we do see same hands used on these models. Not with the '50' text though... I guess we are done here ? time to move on and review new set of watches!!!


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

I'm interested in this Poljot 2414. I really tried to do my homework this time and come to class prepared. I would appreciate your thoughts. 

Since I am new to this the first thing I check, and it would seem obvious but I have to ensure my enthusiasm doesn't overrule critical thinking -d) does the number of jewels on the dial match the number stamped on the movement? Yes.

Then I checked with Watches of the USSR and I believe it is a 2414/231109 https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljot?lightbox=dataItem-ih1dnh2t. The watch I am evaluating for purchase has the magnifier window which is consistent with the catalog picture:









I'm a bit concerned the movement doesn't have markings, but this does not appear to be unprecedented for 2414 (different models show in this thread but 2414s), and 2414 is stamped inside the movement.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-paradox-2627562.html

I have been emailing the seller who replaced the minute hand from black to gold. I think it looks pretty good and I am okay with it. I see variation on minute hand on Watches of the USSR between the the 2414/231109 and the 2414/243110


----------



## Kamburov

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> I'm interested in this Poljot 2414. I really tried to do my homework this time and come to class prepared. I would appreciate your thoughts.
> 
> Since I am new to this the first thing I check, and it would seem obvious but I have to ensure my enthusiasm doesn't overrule critical thinking -d) does the number of jewels on the dial match the number stamped on the movement? Yes.
> 
> Then I checked with Watches of the USSR and I believe it is a 2414/231109 https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/poljot?lightbox=dataItem-ih1dnh2t. The watch I am evaluating for purchase has the magnifier window which is consistent with the catalog picture:
> 
> View attachment 14389143
> 
> 
> I'm a bit concerned the movement doesn't have markings, but this does not appear to be unprecedented for 2414 (different models show in this thread but 2414s), and 2414 is stamped inside the movement.
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-paradox-2627562.html
> 
> I have been emailing the seller who replaced the minute hand from black to gold. I think it looks pretty good and I am okay with it. I see variation on minute hand on Watches of the USSR between the the 2414/231109 and the 2414/243110


I think you got it right, comrade! Yes, 2414 with date complication is 17 jewels, as it's stampes on the bridge. There's a color pic from the 1972 catalogue. Look at No3 for model 2414/231109:








Date wheel is red, and cyrillic branding on face is combined with cyrillic signing on the movement.









These models, although not that big in size, are very stylish and elegant.


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> I think you got it right, comrade! Yes, 2414 with date complication is 17 jewels, as it's stampes on the bridge. There's a color pic from the 1972 catalogue. Look at No3 for model 2414/231109:
> 
> Date wheel is red, and cyrillic branding on face is combined with cyrillic signing on the movement.
> 
> These models, although not that big in size, are very stylish and elegant.


Thank you. Your help is greatly appreciated. :-!


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, as always I hope everyone is doing well, and yes I need another watch authenticated by our in house experts, thank you for your time and opinions. James.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, as always I hope everyone is doing well, and yes I need another watch authenticated by our in house experts, thank you for your time and opinions. James.


It's a nice example of a Komandirskie 341289 with passport to match from August 1992 :-!

Here's the 1993 catalogue image:









Also my example from August 1994:









Different bezels and second hands are just production variants and nothing to worry about 

Also the 1990 catalogue image:


----------



## jimzilla

As always Avidfan.... thank you. I must say your example is perfect! mine has a little fading from 11 to 1 but as you say it is a nice example, best regards sir, james |>|>|>


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> As always Avidfan.... thank you. I must say your example is perfect! mine has a little fading from 11 to 1 but as you say it is a nice example, best regards sir, james |>|>|>


Don't worry about the fading from 11 to 1, all 289 dials are made that way


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> Don't worry about the fading from 11 to 1, all 289 dials are made that way


Yep, agreed ;-)


----------



## jimzilla

mariomart said:


> Yep, agreed ;-)


Hey mariomart, nice that you chimed in I haven't seen you around lately. I hope you do well sir and that is a very nice example as well...... 
then again all your watches are top notch  best regards, james.


----------



## Timmehhh84

I recently purchased this watch from a trusted seller on eBay.
Can anyone shed any light on the background? I couldn't find anything in a quick catalog search.


----------



## dutchassasin

Timmehhh84 said:


> I recently purchased this watch from a trusted seller on eBay.
> Can anyone shed any light on the background? I couldn't find anything in a quick catalog search.


Im not 100% sure its authentic but i think they recently found a batch of these dials as they suddenly appeared at different sellers in the same time-frame. The dial can be found in one of the catalogues but with a different case. Lets wait for some more knowledgable people to comment as well


----------



## Avidfan

Timmehhh84 said:


> I recently purchased this watch from a trusted seller on eBay.
> Can anyone shed any light on the background? I couldn't find anything in a quick catalog search.


I won't comment on the watch as you can see from comrade dutchassasin's reply that it's not the same as the catalogue image, but the passport you have is for a green VDV paratrooper with dial code 307:


----------



## thewatchadude

Taking opportunity of these pictures for a quick request: could anyone adress me to where I can find Vostok catalogues? Most of the links I used to use are no longer working for me. Thanks


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Taking opportunity of these pictures for a quick request: could anyone adress me to where I can find Vostok catalogues? Most of the links I used to use are no longer working for me. Thanks


These should work
???????? ????? ???? ? 1934 ???? | ussr-watch.com


----------



## thewatchadude

Fantastic, thanks Ivan!


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Taking opportunity of these pictures for a quick request: could anyone adress me to where I can find Vostok catalogues? Most of the links I used to use are no longer working for me. Thanks


Looks like the Antonov site that I use has gone :-(


----------



## Odessa200

What do you guys think about this Luch? Any issues (aside from being quite dirty)?


----------



## haha

Odessa200 said:


> What do you guys think about this Luch? Any issues (aside from being quite dirty)?


Looks good to me. 
Might even be an original strap, according to the 1975 Luch catalog !


----------



## Odessa200

haha said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think about this Luch? Any issues (aside from being quite dirty)?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good to me.
> Might even be an original strap, according to the 1975 Luch catalog !
Click to expand...

Yes, as far as I can see it is an original strap that is not that much worn. This leads me to believe the watch maybe in good state. Bought it. Will see when I get it. Thanks Haha!


----------



## Kamburov

Beautiful Luch, Odessa! Looks fine to me too, and after you clean it you should take some good pics to show here. Congrats!
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Beautiful Luch, Odessa! Looks fine to me too, and after you clean it you should take some good pics to show here. Congrats!
> Ivan


Yey!!!! I am constantly on lookout for these. Unfortunately the luck was not on my side till now. So many fakes or in bad state or super expensive. Out of 300+ watches in my collection this is my 1st Luch! Coming from UK so should get it in a week or so. Will post before and after! 🙂


----------



## lrmgus

Hi all!
Made my very first purchases of russian watches today so I thought it would be appropriate to make my first post at watchuseek as well.
My heads spinning from surfing the net and reading about russian watches for three days now. Soo much to see and so much to learn.

My experience when dealing with watches is sourly lacking so I thought maybe someone in this forum could give their verdict.
All pictures are sellers picture.

1. Vostok Amphibian
No picture of the innards. According to the seller he has never opened it.




































2. Raketa
No strap to this one. I would very much like to hear your suggestion.











































I'm also intrested in this watch but haven't decided yet.
What do you think?


----------



## Odessa200

lrmgus said:


> Hi all!
> Made my very first purchases of russian watches today so I thought it would be appropriate to make my first post at watchuseek as well.
> My heads spinning from surfing the net and reading about russian watches for three days now. Soo much to see and so much to learn.
> 
> My experience when dealing with watches is sourly lacking so I thought maybe someone in this forum could give their verdict.
> All pictures are sellers picture.
> 
> 1. Vostok Amphibian
> No picture of the innards. According to the seller he has never opened it.
> View attachment 14412493
> 
> View attachment 14412495
> 
> View attachment 14412497
> 
> View attachment 14412499
> 
> View attachment 14412501
> 
> 
> 2. Raketa
> No strap to this one. I would very much like to hear your suggestion.
> View attachment 14412505
> 
> View attachment 14412507
> 
> View attachment 14412509
> 
> View attachment 14412511
> 
> View attachment 14412513
> 
> View attachment 14412515
> 
> 
> I'm also intrested in this watch but haven't decided yet.
> What do you think?
> View attachment 14412519
> 
> View attachment 14412521
> 
> View attachment 14412523


Welcome to the forum!

Sniper: it was opened before ?. I doubt the damage on the dial could happen w/o someone 'skilled' work ?. Or this is just on the crystal? Anyway, I think the lume on the hands was replaced. I am also not sure Sniper was ever released in this body but maybe I just never saw one like that. Vostok experts will for sure opine soon!

Raketa: I think you did well here. Maybe the crown is replaced. Do not see anything else. Here is a catalog picture.

No clue about the last watch ?


----------



## Kamburov

Welcome to the forum! 
Just to add to Odessa's verdict:
1. This dial is not for this watch. This case was meant for cal.2209 (18 jewels), the dial is for a 2409A (17 jewels) amfibia, in a 320 octagonal case. I'm qurious what's inside that watch. 
2. Nothing to add here, exept that the crown looks like from a Vostok, but I may be wrong. Very nice looking vintage model, I like it a lot.
3. Not too familiar with modern Poljots, but looks like an Aviator with a Poljot 3105 movement (17 jewels). I see nothing wrong with it.

2 out of 3 is quite good for a first timer, who had three days for research. Soviet watch production is vast. 
The Vostok is a miss, but (if authenticity matters to you) with a little investment for spares you can restore/defranken 2 amfibias, and learn a lot in the process. And have fun, most importantly. 
This is how the watch with this dial should look like
View attachment 14412731
View attachment 14412731


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> Just to add to Odessa's verdict:
> 1. This dial is not for this watch. This case was meant for cal.2209 (18 jewels), the dial is for a 2409A (17 jewels) amfibia, in a 320 octagonal case. I'm qurious what's inside that watch.
> 2. Nothing to add here, exept that the crown looks like from a Vostok, but I may be wrong. Very nice looking vintage model, I like it a lot.
> 3. Not too familiar with modern Poljots, but looks like an Aviator with a Poljot 3105 movement (17 jewels). I see nothing wrong with it.
> 
> 2 out of 3 is quite good for a first timer, who had three days for research. Soviet watch production is vast.
> The Vostok is a miss, but (if authenticity matters to you) with a little investment for spares you can restore/defranken 2 amfibias, and learn a lot in the process. And have fun, most importantly.
> This is how the watch with this dial should look like
> View attachment 14412731
> View attachment 14412731


Another bit of advise about the Raketa: wind it or change time slowly and very gently. You will discover soon enough after some reading: this particular movement has a weak point: keyless work.


----------



## thewatchadude

Dear fellow experts, what to think of this one?

























I am not sure I understand the third picture??


----------



## stevarad

thewatchadude said:


> Dear fellow experts, what to think of this one?
> 
> View attachment 14413923
> 
> 
> View attachment 14413925
> 
> 
> View attachment 14413927
> 
> 
> I am not sure I understand the last picture??


Who knows...there were such a lot of those marketing dials. I believe in originality of this. Fantasy dials are usually WWII, fliger watches, KGB... something "cool". This is not cool enough for, let's say - a very specific category of buyers who do not know nothing, but want's to have and believe that they have cooool soviet secret service watch, made by Stalin himself.

So I do not believe that someone would fake dial/watch like this. It is cool for us here on f10, but not for, you know...

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## EndeavourDK

thewatchadude said:


> Dear fellow experts, what to think of this one?


Second Stevarad; It's a cool dial. I'm a total novice regarding these watches, the hands one could perhaps argued about, but the dial is very special; fake or not.
There are old fake dials out there who themselves have become collectors items.
Of course, it also depends on the asking price .....


----------



## thewatchadude

Guys I thank you very much for your feedbacks and appreciate you took the time to look at my request and provide your views. I think however we should keep in mind this is an expertise thread. I'd tend to believe it would be preferable if we keep answers here focussed on expertise and knowledge. We have plenty of other posts to give our preferences, loves/hates, etc. I'm not saying this only for me (little chance I buy the watch even if confirmed as genuine) but also for keeping a track for everyone and avoid confusion as much as possible. Sorry if all this sounds rude, it's not my purpose and is certainly not addressed personally to you.


----------



## dutchassasin

thewatchadude said:


> Dear fellow experts, what to think of this one?
> 
> View attachment 14413923


Personally i doubt this dial is legit, i think a genuine one was only made with white dial. Like for example Lex his example: 
https://www.fromrussiawithwatch.com/raketa-2623-h-lenin-20-years


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dear fellow experts, what to think of this one?
> 
> View attachment 14413923
> 
> 
> 
> Personally i doubt this dial is legit, i think a genuine one was only made with white dial. Like for example Lex his example:
> https://www.fromrussiawithwatch.com/raketa-2623-h-lenin-20-years
Click to expand...

I second that. This is Fake. I wanted to buy it as well. Did a research. Pass on these


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> I second that. This is Fake. I wanted to buy it as well. Did a research. Pass on these


Such a shame it is fake, as the Lenin icebraker ship was a really cool piece of equipment. I was in awe from it when I was a kid.
Whoever did that dial did a good job, though, print detail is very good. The watch has been produced only with a white dial and black hands (all Lenin boat watches seem to be white dial/black hands, it's a polar themed watch afterall), so the "maker" had to think of matching non-black hands. Hence the slava hands  These are slava, right?
If a watch with such a black dial was ever produced, there will be at least one legit example, and there isn't one. 
Where's the seller situated? If it's not a secret?
Ivan


----------



## schnurrp

Not infallible but, as usual, lumed hands with no lume dots on dial is always suspicious to me.


----------



## stevarad

EndeavourDK said:


> Second Stevarad; It's a cool dial. I'm a total novice regarding these watches, the hands one could perhaps argue about, but the dial is very special; fake or not.
> There are old fake dials out there who themselves have become collectors items.
> Of course, it also depends on the asking price .....


Yes, it is cool.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Kamburov

Found this thread in watch.ru
???????? ???????? ????? ?? ??? - ??????? ????? Watch.ru
with this dark dial version, supposedly legit (so I may be wrong about the only white faces)








and this fake, very similar to the one posted here








I can also see our friend Oldfox in the comments of the russian thread. Haven't seen him around lately, will be interesting to hear his opinion.
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

double


----------



## thewatchadude

Interesting, thanks. But how do you make the distinction between both? They look very similar to me, I'm probably missing something because I would have said the first one does not have an original second hand while the second one might have one.


----------



## schnurrp

The first one is pictured in a case that appears different from the back view and with a thicker crown.















The second one has a case that is consistent with back view of first.









When collecting soviet watches it is very difficult sometimes to "avoid confusion as much as possible".


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> The first one is pictured in a case that appears different from the back view and with a thicker crown.
> 
> View attachment 14414539
> View attachment 14414541
> 
> 
> The second one has a case that is consistent with back view of first.
> 
> View attachment 14414543
> 
> 
> When collecting soviet watches it is very difficult sometimes to "avoid confusion as much as possible".


Yes, the watch in question has Slava hands.

On a general note, I think we all know that, when in doubt, look at other lots by the Seller. I just did. There is every known franken for all the 'polar expedition' is out there. Fake Big 0. I am not accusing the seller (some truly believe they sell real deal cause they were fooled as well). But given all the uncertainty around this watch I decided to walk away.


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Interesting, thanks. But how do you make the distinction between both? They look very similar to me, I'm probably missing something because I would have said the first one does not have an original second hand while the second one might have one.


For special issues like this one is hard to be deffinitive. Watches like these were presented to the men serving on Lenin in 1979, I think. I don't know how many were produced, but probably not that many. So people who served on the ship at that time are the best source of info on the subject. Sadly we don't have any of them here on the forum. 
The supposedly legit first watch at least has all raketa parts, although all three hands look repainted. Seconds hand also looks replaced.
So under closer observation this one has issues too. Was this the original hands set? Was this the original case? No idea.
The dial looks like it has some patina and brownish sunburned colour, and 0, 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 are highlighted, like on the white version. 
So now we have three dark dialed watches, with three different dark dials. All three are not in original state, with obviously wrong parts. Now the question is, did ever Petrodvorec produce a dark dial model, and if it did, what did it look like. 
All of the three dark dials have only one example each, which is never a good sign. The funny part is, this dial is quite intricate and hard to fake in garage conditions, and all three look done by a factory machine (excluding the vertical blue lines on one, wander what happened there). May be unofficial variations done by factory workers at the time, or experimental variations prepared for proposal, and the white one was picked for the occasion.
So my short verdict is - I don't have a clue what's going on with these.


----------



## thewatchadude

I meant making a distinction between the first watch shown by Kamburov and the second one in his post. The cases look very similar to me, as do the dials. So I'm wondering what I'm missing and that I need to pay attention to going forward. I get the point on the hands, the crowns look quite the same I think.

EDIT: I posted this at the same time Kamburov answered my previous question. I'm afraid I'm bringing confusion in my own post 

That said thanks to all these explanations now I see better the differences between the dials. Number 1 is relatively obvious (numerals and indices), Number 3 is much more subtile as you said (the vertical lines). There might be other things I didn't notice.


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> I meant making a distinction between the first watch shown by Kamburov and the second one in his post. The cases look very similar to me, as do the dials. So I'm wondering what I'm missing and that I need to pay attention to going forward. I get the point on the hands, the crowns look quite the same I think.
> 
> EDIT: I posted this at the same time Kamburov answered my previous question. I'm afraid I'm bringing confusion in my own post
> 
> That said thanks to all these explanations now I see better the differences between the dials. Number 1 is relatively obvious (numerals and indices), Number 3 is much more subtile as you said (the vertical lines). There might be other things I didn't notice.


Yeah, cases lare similar - chrome-plated and gold-plated versions. The dials have different details too, one has white minute markers, the other one red (as the official white version). As to hands and crowns we can check catalogued models to see what's appropriate for these cases and time period. 
My guess is that when the Party put the order to Petrodvorec, different designs and color schemes were made to be evaluated by the bosses. These may have found their way in the world in the shape of franken watches. The dials may never have been in official watches, with papers etc. So even if the dial has been produced on a factory machine, the watch can be still franken.
I have a question of my own. When these watches were presented to the servicemen, were papers also attached? Or only the watch in a box. Just wondering.
It's always difficult to evaluate special orders and commemorative watches like this. Or learn something valuable. I tend to get more confused every time.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I meant making a distinction between the first watch shown by Kamburov and the second one in his post. The cases look very similar to me, as do the dials. So I'm wondering what I'm missing and that I need to pay attention to going forward. I get the point on the hands, the crowns look quite the same I think.
> 
> EDIT: I posted this at the same time Kamburov answered my previous question. I'm afraid I'm bringing confusion in my own post ?
> 
> That said thanks to all these explanations now I see better the differences between the dials. Number 1 is relatively obvious (numerals and indices), Number 3 is much more subtile as you said (the vertical lines). There might be other things I didn't notice.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, cases lare similar - chrome-plated and gold-plated versions. The dials have different details too, one has white minute markers, the other one red (as the official white version). As to hands and crowns we can check catalogued models to see what's appropriate for these cases and time period.
> My guess is that when the Party put the order to Petrodvorec, different designs and color schemes were made to be evaluated by the bosses. These may have found their way in the world in the shape of franken watches. The dials may never have been in official watches, with papers etc. So even if the dial has been produced on a factory machine, the watch can be still franken.
> I have a question of my own. When these watches were presented to the servicemen, were papers also attached? Or only the watch in a box. Just wondering.
> It's always difficult to evaluate special orders and commemorative watches like this. Or learn something valuable. I tend to get more confused every time.
Click to expand...

If a watch was an official award, as far as I know, it would come with a certificate saying that Mr.Abc was awarded a watch + X rubles, etc. The watch would be in a box with it's passport and warranty coupons. In this case, I think it was more of a souvenir than an award. But the watch would be with the passport.

As far as what happened with the squiggly blue lines on one dial? My guess 'too much vodka on that day at the factory' ?

Also, it is possible that these watches (or dials) were produced by Altels. Small manufacturers that were making things like that.

To be continued. Maybe one day someone scores a real one so we can discuss more!


----------



## skipvel

I'm thinking that this is not what it seems. There is an ebay seller with 10 of them for sale. And cheaper than the one that the OP was curious about. (59US vs 99US) 
www.ebay.com/itm/263995201141


----------



## Odessa200

skipvel said:


> I'm thinking that this is not what it seems. There is an ebay seller with 10 of them for sale. And cheaper than the one that the OP was curious about. (59US vs 99US)
> www.ebay.com/itm/263995201141


My view that these are fake dials. Or they were made by Artel sometime back. The seller also have these. Lots say '14 hours dial' not '24 hours watch'. Also 17 jewels. 2623.H that technically should be there is 19 jewels. Right? Is this one of the 'customized 12h to be 24h'? Maybe. No movement photos foe these. 
Anyone thinks there are authentic? I doubt.


----------



## thewatchadude

This one is mine. What would you guys says about it, authentic or not?


----------



## elsoldemayo

thewatchadude said:


> This one is mine. What would you guys says about it, authentic or not?


Correct case, correct hands, fading of the stations and text on these is common. Assuming it's a 2623.h inside it looks good.


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> This one is mine. What would you guys says about it, authentic or not?


From that photo looks like the real deal, the red dots and "soviet antarctic expedition" faded. Have these ever been catalogued?
Or any examples with papers in the forum?
Ivan


----------



## AaParker

I think it's really pretty, but don't want to be disappointed if it's pretty fake. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this one. It looks very similar to one with a date on Mr. Oatman's site. This seller takes great photos. Maybe I should buy tips  As always, thank you!!!


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> This one is mine. What would you guys says about it, authentic or not?
> 
> 
> 
> From that photo looks like the real deal, the red dots and "soviet antarctic expedition" faded. Have these ever been catalogued?
> Or any examples with papers in the forum?
> Ivan
Click to expand...

Agree. Looks good. I have not seen these in the catalogs.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> I think it's really pretty, but don't want to be disappointed if it's pretty fake. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this one. It looks very similar to one with a date on Mr. Oatman's site. This seller takes great photos. Maybe I should buy tips
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As always, thank you!!!
> 
> View attachment 14418303
> 
> 
> View attachment 14418305
> 
> 
> View attachment 14418307
> 
> 
> View attachment 14418309


Looks really good! I think it is real.


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks all for the feedback. Regarding the dots color, one of our most pointy experts on my native language forum says it's actually the original color and is typical of the latest USSR produced 24h Antarctic Raketas (3rd model of te 3rd generation). See raketa 24h - Les Raketa 24H antarctiques. I don't know whether you can read it, but in any case you'll find some nice pictures of the various models (from oldest to most recent) inclduing a catalogue photo of the 1st model of the third generation (ie. not exactly mine but very close).

[Sorry guys, this is a continuation of the 24h Antarctic Raketa discussion]


----------



## thewatchadude

Double--I messed up a bit sory.


----------



## Odessa200

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks all for the feedback. Regarding the dots color, one of our most pointy experts on my native language forum says it's actually the original color and is typical of the latest USSR produced 24h Antarctic Raketas (3rd model of te 3rd generation). See raketa 24h - Les Raketa 24H antarctiques. I don't know whether you can read it, but in any case you'll find some nice pictures of the various models (from oldest to most recent) inclduing a catalogue photo of the 1st model of the third generation (ie. not exactly mine but very close).
> 
> [Sorry guys, this is a continuation of the 24h Antarctic Raketa discussion]


Thanks for sharing!


----------



## haha

AaParker said:


> I think it's really pretty, but don't want to be disappointed if it's pretty fake. I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on this one. It looks very similar to one with a date on Mr. Oatman's site. This seller takes great photos. Maybe I should buy tips  As always, thank you!!!
> 
> View attachment 14418305


All good.
Here it is in the catalog (123287)


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks all for the feedback. Regarding the dots color, one of our most pointy experts on my native language forum says it's actually the original color and is typical of the latest USSR produced 24h Antarctic Raketas (3rd model of te 3rd generation). See raketa 24h - Les Raketa 24H antarctiques. I don't know whether you can read it, but in any case you'll find some nice pictures of the various models (from oldest to most recent) inclduing a catalogue photo of the 1st model of the third generation (ie. not exactly mine but very close).
> 
> [Sorry guys, this is a continuation of the 24h Antarctic Raketa discussion]


Thanks! The Cherdantsev interview was particularly interesting. Didn't know the first 24h watches were based on the Rossia. These early ones (from the 60s catalogue) I find so beautiful, but almost impossible to find. I don't even remember seing one in the forum since I registered. I don't even see them on Dashiell's site. This article is the first time I see them on photos. 
Now I want one badly 
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks all for the feedback. Regarding the dots color, one of our most pointy experts on my native language forum says it's actually the original color and is typical of the latest USSR produced 24h Antarctic Raketas (3rd model of te 3rd generation). See raketa 24h - Les Raketa 24H antarctiques. I don't know whether you can read it, but in any case you'll find some nice pictures of the various models (from oldest to most recent) inclduing a catalogue photo of the 1st model of the third generation (ie. not exactly mine but very close).
> 
> [Sorry guys, this is a continuation of the 24h Antarctic Raketa discussion]


Interesting article :-!

I had a go with the Google translator; see whether I can repeat that here ; https://translate.google.com/transl...-raketa-24h-antarctiques?highlight=raketa+24h


----------



## SinanjuStein

Interesting little Pobeda i saw recently, the golden indices and hands do have wear on the closeup shots, but the dial and second markers looks like somebody had some fun with a laser printer.

Or am i just being too negative? Since this looks too good to be correct.


----------



## haha

Dashiell has a similar dial (different structure) on a Zim, but with a different (later) case.
So, i'd say Franken, but nice one at least ;-)
https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/zim?lightbox=image_1w3i


----------



## AaParker

haha said:


> All good.
> Here it is in the catalog (123287)
> View attachment 14419305


Thank you haha and Odessa200. I appreciate your thoughts. The watch is on its way!


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Interesting little Pobeda i saw recently, the golden indices and hands do have wear on the closeup shots, but the dial and second markers looks like somebody had some fun with a laser printer.
> 
> Or am i just being too negative? Since this looks too good to be correct.
> 
> View attachment 14419467





haha said:


> Dashiell has a similar dial (different structure) on a Zim, but with a different (later) case.
> So, i'd say Franken, but nice one at least
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/zim?lightbox=image_1w3i


That is a hard one, at least for me. Is the seller reputable? Other fake lots in his list? This dial is harder to fake....


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks all for the feedback. Regarding the dots color, one of our most pointy experts on my native language forum says it's actually the original color and is typical of the latest USSR produced 24h Antarctic Raketas (3rd model of te 3rd generation). See raketa 24h - Les Raketa 24H antarctiques. I don't know whether you can read it, but in any case you'll find some nice pictures of the various models (from oldest to most recent) inclduing a catalogue photo of the 1st model of the third generation (ie. not exactly mine but very close).
> 
> [Sorry guys, this is a continuation of the 24h Antarctic Raketa discussion]
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! The Cherdantsev interview was particularly interesting. Didn't know the first 24h watches were based on the Rossia. These early ones (from the 60s catalogue) I find so beautiful, but almost impossible to find. I don't even remember seing one in the forum since I registered. I don't even see them on Dashiell's site. This article is the first time I see them on photos.
> Now I want one badly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivan
Click to expand...

One more Raketa 24 h on the Baltica movement. It is a great watch. Get one as soon as you can!


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> One more Raketa 24 h on the Baltica movement. It is a great watch. Get one as soon as you can!


Yeah, that's a stunning watch! And I also want the ones with the 12 on top. Oh, man! There's no end to this 
Ivan


----------



## thewatchadude

Two watches for expertise please:

The first one has a 2609 HA inside, with the Raketa logo just above the caliber number.









The second onelooks like a komandirskie case with a strange inner ring and unknown (at least to me) dial. Movement is 2409 without any markings and caseback the komandirskie one (sunset with a seagull) with serial number.


----------



## Odessa200

thewatchadude said:


> Two watches for expertise please:
> 
> The first one has a 2609 HA inside, with the Raketa logo just above the caliber number.
> 
> View attachment 14422617
> 
> 
> The second onelooks like a komandirskie case with a strange inner ring and unknown (at least to me) dial. Movement is 2409 without any markings and caseback the komandirskie one (sunset with a seagull) with serial number.


Raketa is fake. This is not a real dial.


----------



## SinanjuStein

thewatchadude said:


> Two watches for expertise please:
> 
> The first one has a 2609 HA inside, with the Raketa logo just above the caliber number.
> 
> View attachment 14422617
> 
> 
> The second onelooks like a komandirskie case with a strange inner ring and unknown (at least to me) dial. Movement is 2409 without any markings and caseback the komandirskie one (sunset with a seagull) with serial number.


Raketa dial is weird, indices look fine but the print in the middle is odd. Also translates into "Workers (Proletarians) of all nations unite!", which isn't completely out of place but still doesn't seem like the standard.

Vostok chapter ring looks almost handpainted, dial is definitely a reprint.


----------



## Odessa200

Odessa200 said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> Two watches for expertise please:
> 
> The first one has a 2609 HA inside, with the Raketa logo just above the caliber number.
> 
> View attachment 14422617
> 
> 
> The second onelooks like a komandirskie case with a strange inner ring and unknown (at least to me) dial. Movement is 2409 without any markings and caseback the komandirskie one (sunset with a seagull) with serial number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa is fake. This is not a real dial.
Click to expand...

I take this back. Looks like this is a legit copy. Dial style had changed from the original Zero 😞


----------



## dutchassasin

Are you guys sure? it seems to me that its just a genuine dial and its often called the "raketa Proletarian"


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> Are you guys sure? it seems to me that its just a genuine dial and its often called the "raketa Proletarian"


You are right. I just posted a correction to my original assessment. Raketa is legit (based on what is shown).


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks. Numbers and indices look very different from usual model.


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks. Numbers and indices look very different from usual model.


Different design (redesign), not just the classic big zero with added crest in the middle. Mine is "made in russia", so the model must be transitional period.


----------



## arkitec

Please identify for a friend who bought in market


----------



## Odessa200

arkitec said:


> Please identify for a friend who bought in market


Looks good to me. Vostok Komandirskie. Probably early 90s. Caliber 2414A.


----------



## Avidfan

arkitec said:


> Please identify for a friend who bought in market


It's a 331XXX (don't know the dial code) with 2414A movement from the last few years of the SU


----------



## EndeavourDK

What do the experts say about this Komandirskie? Are the (second)hands / crown / case original & correct? 
So far I couldn't find this watch in a catalogue; anybody aware whether there is a picture of this watch in a catalogue (which year?)?
Hope to hear ..... ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> What do the experts say about this Komandirskie? Are the (second)hands / crown / case original & correct?
> So far I couldn't find this watch in a catalogue; anybody aware whether there is a picture of this watch in a catalogue (which year?)?
> Hope to hear .....


Looks good to me. The only question I have is that the movement does not list the number of jewels. What I saw before had it. This is early Komandirskie. Started in 1965. More here https://www.watchuseek.com/#/topics/4276114


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> What do the experts say about this Komandirskie? Are the (second)hands / crown / case original & correct?
> So far I couldn't find this watch in a catalogue; anybody aware whether there is a picture of this watch in a catalogue (which year?)?
> Hope to hear ..... ;


Well it is shown in a catalogue on the early generation komandirskies thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html where it's shown as a 2214.1/383392 hopefully another comrade will have a link for it


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> EndeavourDK said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do the experts say about this Komandirskie? Are the (second)hands / crown / case original & correct?
> So far I couldn't find this watch in a catalogue; anybody aware whether there is a picture of this watch in a catalogue (which year?)?
> Hope to hear ..... ;
> 
> 
> 
> Well it is shown in a catalogue on the early generation komandirskies thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html where it's shown as a 2214.1/383392 hopefully another comrade will have a link for it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14425627
Click to expand...

And that is correct. Initially this movement was categorized as 2214, then 2214.1 and then 2234. Given that this watch has a back with 2234, we can assume it is one of the later models and obviously it must have the stop second complication.


----------



## AaParker

Hello,

I recently purchased the watch below and I am going to have the crystal replaced with a correct low profile one. I was wondering if you all thought the crown was correct or would need to be replaced as well?  As always, many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently purchased the watch below and I am going to have the crystal replaced with a correct low profile one. I was wondering if you all thought the crown was correct or would need to be replaced as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As always, many thanks!
> 
> View attachment 14425647
> 
> 
> View attachment 14425649
> 
> 
> View attachment 14425651


Crown for sure is wrong and shall be replaced. But I would say that the watch body is wrong as well. ?


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Crown for sure is wrong and shall be replaced. But I would say that the watch body is wrong as well. ��


Could very well be. I should have checked here *before* I purchased. Do you think the dial is correct? I have my suspicions now that I'm really looking at it. I have a case for a deluxe that I bought as a donor for some parts and could do a swap. Or is it just a hopeless fake? I'm going towards hopeless fake. Live and learn! Or I could have just looked at the one I have on today o|

Thank you.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> Well it is shown in a catalogue on the early generation komandirskies thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/early-generation-komandirskies-4276114.html where it's shown as a 2214.1/383392 hopefully another comrade will have a link for it


Now knowing where to look for, I finally found it; page 14 in the 1974 catalogue 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2c2dwlcuzzffziq/Каталог часов, 1974 - А.И. Токмаков.pdf

Lots of goodies on this page: http://ussr-watch.com/watch-catalogues/

Thanks all for your help :-!

BTW; the 1969 Komandirskie I bought a while ago; it has a hacking 2214 (later to be baptized as the 2234)


----------



## skipvel

I like commemorative dials; especially railway or navy themes. The problem is that they are very often fakes and because they are small runs usually not in any catalog. Any opinions or guidance on these 5 watches would be appreciated. The first 3 are vostok the second two raketa.

































Thank you in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

skipvel said:


> I like commemorative dials; especially railway or navy themes. The problem is that they are very often fakes and because they are small runs usually not in any catalog. Any opinions or guidance on these 5 watches would be appreciated. The first 3 are vostok the second two raketa.
> 
> View attachment 14425823
> View attachment 14425825
> View attachment 14425827
> View attachment 14425829
> View attachment 14425831
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Looks good. Vostoks are Komandirskie with a apecial dials. 1st Raketa is a 'nut'. Here is how the original looks. The last one is based on Big Zero, I guess.


----------



## Avidfan

skipvel said:


> I like commemorative dials; especially railway or navy themes. The problem is that they are very often fakes and because they are small runs usually not in any catalog. Any opinions or guidance on these 5 watches would be appreciated. The first 3 are vostok the second two raketa.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


I won't comment on the Raketa but the first two Vostok are fine |>, the third Vostok (IMHO) has been recased, it's in a 270 Amphibia case with a titanium nitride finished Komandirskie bezel :-s but I think it would have originally been in a type 34 Komandirskie case


----------



## AaParker

AaParker said:


> Could very well be. I should have checked here *before* I purchased. Do you think the dial is correct? I have my suspicions now that I'm really looking at it. I have a case for a deluxe that I bought as a donor for some parts and could do a swap. Or is it just a hopeless fake? I'm going towards hopeless fake. Live and learn! Or I could have just looked at the one I have on today o|
> 
> Thank you.


So, I looked again, and I think the dial might be original? :think: It looks better with the crystal off, and it is the same as the other deluxe I have that I believe is correct. And maybe the movement as well? :-s The case is obviously chromed, and I think not original, as you can tell from my sad attempts to get the watch back off. Thank you for your thoughts and opinions in advance. They are greatly appreciated!


----------



## Miguel Fazendas

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



AaParker said:


> So, I looked again, and I think the dial might be original? :think: It looks better with the crystal off, and it is the same as the other deluxe I have that I believe is correct. And maybe the movement as well? :-s The case is obviously chromed, and I think not original, as you can tell from my sad attempts to get the watch back off. Thank you for your thoughts and opinions in advance. They are greatly appreciated!
> 
> View attachment 14427611
> 
> 
> View attachment 14427613


I agree with you: you seem to have a very nice early original dial, correct movement and correct hands. The case, as you say, should be gilded (with the rounded lugs, I think, for that dial).

If you already have the case you'll have a beautiful watch! Congrats!


----------



## Odessa200

Miguel Fazendas said:


> AaParker said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, I looked again, and I think the dial might be original?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It looks better with the crystal off, and it is the same as the other deluxe I have that I believe is correct. And maybe the movement as well?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The case is obviously chromed, and I think not original, as you can tell from my sad attempts to get the watch back off. Thank you for your thoughts and opinions in advance. They are greatly appreciated!
> 
> View attachment 14427611
> 
> 
> View attachment 14427613
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you: you seem to have a very nice early original dial, correct movement and correct hands. The case, as you say, should be gilded (with the rounded lugs, I think, for that dial).
> 
> If you already have the case you'll have a beautiful watch! Congrats!
Click to expand...

I even know what happened to the original case...:-( gold collectors. So many great watches were and still being destroyed. Sad story.


----------



## SunnyOrange

Odessa200 said:


> I even know what happened to the original case...:-( *gold collectors*. So many great watches were and still being destroyed. Sad story.


A suitable name for these people is 'butchers'. How many pocket watches they have destroyed from their greed (taking only golden cases), we will never know.

As for Russian watches, do the case and the movement colour have to match, or is it just in this Poljot?


----------



## Miguel Fazendas

I think all of these 2209 movements are golden (even the later ones that were used in chromed cases).


----------



## Odessa200

Miguel Fazendas said:


> I think all of these 2209 movements are golden (even the later ones that were used in chromed cases).


Yep. This movement, as far as I know, is always gilded. Delux Poljot is mostly gilden with some stainless steal exceptions. But De Lux (outside gilden) can have not gilden caliber (2415, 2416).


----------



## SinanjuStein

A couple of odd Luch's i found while browsing for a nice purple dial.

I'm like 90% sure that the dials are new, but what is odd is where are those hands from? I've never seen those handsets before.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> A couple of odd Luch's i found while browsing for a nice purple dial.
> 
> I'm like 90% sure that the dials are new, but what is odd is where are those hands from? I've never seen those handsets before.
> 
> View attachment 14432221
> 
> 
> View attachment 14432231


+ additional 10% ?. It is 100% new dials. Hands are probably purchased from China. They do not belong to Luch or any Soviet watches as far as I can tell.


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

Quick question: The hands on a gold Luch ultra slim should be all gold or is a black second hand acceptable? I think it might have been replaced.

As always, thank you very much for your thoughts. They are greatly appreciated!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> Quick question: The hands on a gold Luch ultra slim should be all gold or is a black second hand acceptable? I think it might have been replaced.
> 
> As always, thank you very much for your thoughts. They are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14433319


All hands in gold is a standard but I saw with black and red second hand occasionally. I think it is acceptable. Here is from Dashiel collection.


----------



## SinanjuStein

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> Quick question: The hands on a gold Luch ultra slim should be all gold or is a black second hand acceptable? I think it might have been replaced.
> 
> As always, thank you very much for your thoughts. They are greatly appreciated!
> 
> View attachment 14433319


IIRC, this particular handset should be all gold.

But i've seen a lot of them that had a gold hour/minute and a black seconds hand for some odd reason.


----------



## AaParker

SinanjuStein said:


> IIRC, this particular handset should be all gold.
> 
> But i've seen a lot of them that had a gold hour/minute and a black seconds hand for some odd reason.


@Odessa200. Thank you. Lot's of variety.

@SinanjuStein. Thank you

I've seen a bunch with different second hands too. That's what makes it all so confusing. :-s

If all gold is the standard, then would this make an acceptable replacement set? I know that the second hand shouldn't be too long and these look correct? This is selling for parts.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> SinanjuStein said:
> 
> 
> 
> IIRC, this particular handset should be all gold.
> 
> But i've seen a lot of them that had a gold hour/minute and a black seconds hand for some odd reason.
> 
> 
> 
> @Odessa200. Thank you. Lot's of variety.
> 
> @SinanjuStein. Thank you
> 
> I've seen a bunch with different second hands too. That's what makes it all so confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If all gold is the standard, then would this make an acceptable replacement set? I know that the second hand shouldn't be too long and these look correct? This is selling for parts.
> 
> View attachment 14433407
Click to expand...

This looks like a straight second hand. Not a fat triangular tail. Am I right? So, not a good match.


----------



## SinanjuStein

AaParker said:


> @Odessa200. Thank you. Lot's of variety.
> 
> @SinanjuStein. Thank you
> 
> I've seen a bunch with different second hands too. That's what makes it all so confusing. :-s
> 
> If all gold is the standard, then would this make an acceptable replacement set? I know that the second hand shouldn't be too long and these look correct? This is selling for parts.
> 
> View attachment 14433407


Unless for some freakish reason, one of them isn't a Luch/Poljot(1MCHZ) everything should be fine.

I've seen somebody stick a Zarya 2008 cal movement into a Poljot 2209 case and use the very simillar Zarya handset. But don't take that freakish thing in mind, everything should fit fine.


----------



## AaParker

SinanjuStein said:


> Unless for some freakish reason, one of them isn't a Luch/Poljot(1MCHZ) everything should be fine.
> 
> I've seen somebody stick a Zarya 2008 cal movement into a Poljot 2209 case and use the very simillar Zarya handset. But don't take that freakish thing in mind, everything should fit fine.


It's really hard to tell from the picture I chose to include! Here's two that should show more:


----------



## SinanjuStein

There wasn't a need to post the extra images, the hands will fit fine.


----------



## jheezy

Hi all,

I've done a bunch of research on Raketa Koperniks over the past couple of months, and eventually purchased the one shown below. It looked to be in great shape (which it is) so I snapped it up quickly on eBay. Everything looks right, but paranoia has set in from continued reading on frankenwatches in the vintage space. I don't have a shot of the movement, but I've opened it up and confirmed that it's a 2609.NP with the expected SU engraving.

Hoping for some other opinions on what I've bought.

Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

jheezy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've done a bunch of research on Raketa Koperniks over the past couple of months, and eventually purchased the one shown below. It looked to be in great shape (which it is) so I snapped it up quickly on eBay. Everything looks right, but paranoia has set in from continued reading on frankenwatches in the vintage space. I don't have a shot of the movement, but I've opened it up and confirmed that it's a 2609.NP with the expected SU engraving.
> 
> Hoping for some other opinions on what I've bought.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 14435615
> View attachment 14435617


Hi. Welcome. I am not sure about the crystal. Can you post a straight side shot? Is it flat on the top?


----------



## SinanjuStein

jheezy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've done a bunch of research on Raketa Koperniks over the past couple of months, and eventually purchased the one shown below. It looked to be in great shape (which it is) so I snapped it up quickly on eBay. Everything looks right, but paranoia has set in from continued reading on frankenwatches in the vintage space. I don't have a shot of the movement, but I've opened it up and confirmed that it's a 2609.NP with the expected SU engraving.
> 
> Hoping for some other opinions on what I've bought.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 14435615
> View attachment 14435617


Seems to be in excellent shape, even the crown is basically new and unworn.

I think they came with late cal 2609's but not all SU marked since were made after the fall of the USSR (Correct me if im mistaken).


----------



## jheezy

Odessa200 said:


> Hi. Welcome. I am not sure about the crystal. Can you post a straight side shot? Is it flat on the top?


Yes, the crystal is flat on top. Here's a (poor) shot of it:


----------



## Odessa200

jheezy said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi. Welcome. I am not sure about the crystal. Can you post a straight side shot? Is it flat on the top?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, the crystal is flat on top. Here's a (poor) shot of it:
> View attachment 14435733
Click to expand...

All is good. You did well!!!! Congrats!


----------



## jheezy

Odessa200 said:


> All is good. You did well!!!! Congrats!


Awesome, thank you! Now to find a good proper Polar Bear / Artica. Seems much harder


----------



## dropmyload

Hello experts, does anyone know anything about this watch?









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

dropmyload said:


> Hello experts, does anyone know anything about this watch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6010 using Tapatalk


Late Pobeda from 80s. Caliber 2602. Not much to say except I have this and my wife 'stole' it from my watch box and uses quite a lot. She works for a telecom company ? 
The watch is small.

This one looks to be all good. Even the original crown. Cheers


----------



## AaParker

Hello! I was hoping you could all give me your thoughts on this one. It's a Moskva. My concern is that I cannot find a catalog listing that matches it exactly. I found one from the 1960 catalog of a gold one with the Kremlin on the dial. Would they have also made a plainer version? I also could not find a version in any collections. As always, thank you all so very much for looking, for your time and patience, and for your expertise and opinions  !!! Also, does anyone know how to get the mechanism out of the case. I have one that has a spot inside the crystal I was hoping to dislodge, and I removed the back and stem and was waiting for the mechanism to just kind of slide out. It didn't. It don't believe it's a top loader. Should I press down on the crystal to force the mechanism out of the back? Not sure.

Google translation for catalog is: Case made of gold of the 583rd test with a diameter of 33 mm. Case weight 11 g.
Organic glass spherical shape. White dial with embossed checkerboard pattern Fields with full digitization 1-12. Relief figures golden. At the top of the contours of the walls and towers
The Kremlin. Scale with sixty divisions. Scale, the picture and inscriptions on the dial are black. Arrows are gilded.









Here's the one I'm interested in:


----------



## Kamburov

AaParker said:


> Hello! I was hoping you could all give me your thoughts on this one. It's a Moskva. My concern is that I cannot find a catalog listing that matches it exactly. I found one from the 1960 catalog of a gold one with the Kremlin on the dial. Would they have also made a plainer version? I also could not find a version in any collections. As always, thank you all so very much for looking, for your time and patience, and for your expertise and opinions  !!! Also, does anyone know how to get the mechanism out of the case. I have one that has a spot inside the crystal I was hoping to dislodge, and I removed the back and stem and was waiting for the mechanism to just kind of slide out. It didn't. It don't below it's a top loader. Should I press down on the crystal to force the mechanism out of the back? Not sure.
> 
> Google translation for catalog is: Case made of gold of the 583rd test with a diameter of 33 mm. Case weight 11 g.
> Organic glass spherical shape. White dial with embossed checkerboard pattern Fields with full digitization 1-12. Relief figures golden. At the top of the contours of the walls and towers
> The Kremlin. Scale with sixty divisions. Scale, the picture and inscriptions on the dial are black. Arrows are gilded.


Top loader. You need to unscrew the two screws that hold the movement to the case, then take the front (bezel/crystal) up with a blade, and then push the movement up from the case. If you need to clean the dial, just take the bezel/crystal off, clean, put back on.
The catalogue says markers are golden, hands also golden. Don't remember seing that model before, so can't really say about authenticity. Looks legit, though.
Hopefully others may know more about it.
Ivan


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> Top loader. You need to unscrew the two screws that hold the movement to the case, then take the front (bezel/crystal) up with a blade, and then push the movement up from the case. If you need to clean the dial, just take the bezel/crystal off, clean, put back on.
> The catalogue says markers are golden, hands also golden. Don't remember seing that model before, so can't really say about authenticity. Looks legit, though.
> Hopefully others may know more about it.
> Ivan


Thank you very much!


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> AaParker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello! I was hoping you could all give me your thoughts on this one. It's a Moskva. My concern is that I cannot find a catalog listing that matches it exactly. I found one from the 1960 catalog of a gold one with the Kremlin on the dial. Would they have also made a plainer version? I also could not find a version in any collections. As always, thank you all so very much for looking, for your time and patience, and for your expertise and opinions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !!! Also, does anyone know how to get the mechanism out of the case. I have one that has a spot inside the crystal I was hoping to dislodge, and I removed the back and stem and was waiting for the mechanism to just kind of slide out. It didn't. It don't below it's a top loader. Should I press down on the crystal to force the mechanism out of the back? Not sure.
> 
> Google translation for catalog is: Case made of gold of the 583rd test with a diameter of 33 mm. Case weight 11 g.
> Organic glass spherical shape. White dial with embossed checkerboard pattern Fields with full digitization 1-12. Relief figures golden. At the top of the contours of the walls and towers
> The Kremlin. Scale with sixty divisions. Scale, the picture and inscriptions on the dial are black. Arrows are gilded.
> 
> 
> 
> Top loader. You need to unscrew the two screws that hold the movement to the case, then take the front (bezel/crystal) up with a blade, and then push the movement up from the case. If you need to clean the dial, just take the bezel/crystal off, clean, put back on.
> The catalogue says markers are golden, hands also golden. Don't remember seing that model before, so can't really say about authenticity. Looks legit, though.
> Hopefully others may know more about it.
> Ivan
Click to expand...

I think this is it. Looks good.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I think this is it. Looks good.


Perfect. Thank you so much!


----------



## AaParker

Aaaand one more with many, many (many) thanks in advance. So, this may be hope springing eternal because I've been know to buy some really baaaaaaad frankens, but do the case (?) and crown need to be replaced and do you see anything else wrong? I question the case because, and I'm terrible at being able to look at things just right, but does the case look like the catalog picture below or am I just being hopeful? I'm used to the crab case design, but there were others? About 90% sure the case is wrong. As always, I am in your debt!!! Thank you!


----------



## haha

AaParker said:


> Aaaand one more with many, many (many) thanks in advance. So, this may be hope springing eternal because I've been know to buy some really baaaaaaad frankens, but do the case (?) and crown need to be replaced and do you see anything else wrong? I question the case because, and I'm terrible at being able to look at things just right, but does the case look like the catalog picture below or am I just being hopeful? I'm used to the crab case design, but there were others? About 90% sure the case is wrong. As always, I am in your debt!!! Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 14442811
> 
> 
> View attachment 14442813


The picture from the catalog is very bad, but it seems to be a classical crab.
Kirovskie had a few other designs, but the one you show here is not one of them. It most probably comes from a Stolichnie. Which are also very beautiful watches, by the way.


----------



## AaParker

Thank you very much! Maybe I'll be able to find one with a bad dial and do a swap. As always, I appreciate it.


----------



## Kamburov

AaParker said:


> Thank you very much! Maybe I'll be able to find one with a bad dial and do a swap. As always, I appreciate it.


Keep in mind that the crab in the catalogue is with white numbers, markers and print. This one (agree with haha, looks like Stolichnie) is wth golden numbers, which corresponds to another catalogue model, with a rather unusual case








So if you consider restoration, it gets very complicated. Also wrong crown, and according to catalogue both second hands are red, the second one with an arrow at the tip. Getting the parts that match this dial is going to be a hell of a ride.


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> Keep in mind that the crab in the catalogue is with white numbers, markers and print. This one (agree with haha, looks like Stolichnie) is wth golden numbers, which corresponds to another catalogue model, with a rather unusual case
> View attachment 14442877
> 
> 
> So if you consider restoration, it gets very complicated. Also wrong crown, and according to catalogue both second hands are red, the second one with an arrow at the tip. Getting the parts that match this dial is going to be a hell of a ride.


Oh yes, I see that. It would be a really daunting task. I was thinking it would be similar to the one with the white numbers. It is obviously not. Much more extensive. Thank you!


----------



## Straight_time

Kamburov said:


> Getting the parts that match this dial is going to be a hell of a ride.


..... mainly because the "rather unusual case" is a .583 solid gold one. :-d


----------



## Kamburov

Straight_time said:


> ..... mainly because the "rather unusual case" is a .583 solid gold one. :-d


My eyes read the words, but the brain didn't register  I'm positive I don't have one in my stash of spares. The 'parts wanted' thread maybe?


----------



## AaParker

..... mainly because the "rather unusual case" is a .583 solid gold one.



Kamburov said:


> My eyes read the words, but the brain didn't register  I'm positive I don't have one in my stash of spares. The 'parts wanted' thread maybe?


Maybe I'll just stick with trying to get a better looking case for that Moskva I asked about... .


----------



## columela

Hello 
Let me introduce you to a new addition to my collection , a Pobeda watch from the 1st Moscow watch factory. Seems a good 802k model to me but I am interested in the learned opinion of the forum. 
Thanks


























Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

columela said:


> Hello
> Let me introduce you to a new addition to my collection , a Pobeda watch from the 1st Moscow watch factory. Seems a good 802k model to me but I am interested in the learned opinion of the forum.
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


Looks good to me!


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me!


Second that. The third one in the row is dated 2-52


----------



## columela

Kamburov said:


> Second that. The third one in the row is dated 2-52
> View attachment 14463873
> 
> View attachment 14463875


Great collection and photo, congrats

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

columela said:


> Great collection and photo, congrats
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


Thanks! These are great watches, I love them. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours!
Ivan


----------



## Kamburov

columela said:


> Great collection and photo, congrats
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


Thanks! These are great watches, I love them. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours!
Ivan


----------



## columela

Hello again

I am thinking of buyig this poljot 3017 chronograph to put a sort of ending to my soviet watch journey.
I have seen this one not too pricey. What do you think? A real one or perhaps not so much?
Thank you for your comments and wisdom


----------



## Odessa200

columela said:


> Hello again
> 
> I am thinking of buyig this poljot 3017 chronograph to put a sort of ending to my soviet watch journey.
> I have seen this one not too pricey. What do you think? A real one or perhaps not so much?
> Thank you for your comments and wisdom
> View attachment 14466965
> 
> View attachment 14466967
> 
> View attachment 14466969


Looks good to me.


----------



## jimzilla

I have a komanderskie in need of authentication from our panel of experts. I believe it has a new dial face and hand set, it is in too good of shape to be stock imho.
I do think it has the original movement. This watch does not have a screw down crown what is the water resistance? I would like to buff the case and use soap and water for final cleaning and I am wondering if it is safe to do. I could pop out the crown and put a little ball of "gamba" in the hole to temporally seal it. As always thank you for the time and your opinions, james


----------



## Kamburov

This is a model from 1979, according to catalogue, and it should have a hacking 2234 inside. 








It has no water resistance rating, no screwdown crown. If you want to clean and polish the case, I reccommend taking the movement and crystal off. 
As to the dial, I think it's a modern day production, and the hands look repainted, as you've already noticed. 
The no date window version dial has been sold in my local shop








Unfortunately I don't own an authentic example to post for comparrison
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> This is a model from 1979, according to catalogue, and it should have a hacking 2234 inside.
> View attachment 14474335
> 
> 
> It has no water resistance rating, no screwdown crown. If you want to clean and polish the case, I reccommend taking the movement and crystal off.
> As to the dial, I think it's a modern day production, and the hands look repainted, as you've already noticed.
> The no date window version dial has been sold in my local shop
> View attachment 14474349
> 
> 
> Unfortunately I don't own an authentic example to post for comparrison
> Ivan


Second that. For sure you need to take the movement out to submerge the watch. Bit it does not look that bad. Buff and clean from the outside.


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Kamburov and Odessa200. I will remove the movement to do the refurbishing. I had the back off and the movement is very detailed with the stars on the large gear and other markings I may get a clear plastic sternkreuz crystal for the back so I can see the movement, it is a cool little watch and keeps excellent time. thanks guy's it is much appreciated, best regards, james. It is strange...... I bought this watch out of Miami, FL from a Russian watch seller??? go figure.


----------



## AaParker

Hello. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this Saturn! I have seen the white version on Watches of the USSR but I can't seem to find a good example of the black version except one that is here and has been redone: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-SAT...775902?hash=item5d8e80fa5e:g:D4YAAOSwEtRdNIZ3

1960 catalog only had one example and it was different than this one. Crown and hands seem right for a Saturn, and it looks like it might be SATURN in Cyrillic under the magnifier crystal, but it's hard to say without something to compare it against. :think:

Thank you in advance for any opinions or impressions you have about the watch. I appreciate it!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this Saturn! I have seen the white version on Watches of the USSR but I can't seem to find a good example of the black version except one that is here and has been redone: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-SAT...775902?hash=item5d8e80fa5e:g:D4YAAOSwEtRdNIZ3
> 
> 1960 catalog only had one example and it was different than this one. Crown and hands seem right for a Saturn, and it looks like it might be SATURN in Cyrillic under the magnifier crystal, but it's hard to say without something to compare it against.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance for any opinions or impressions you have about the watch. I appreciate it!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477385
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477387
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477389
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477391


Haven't see this one before. To me the dial looks restored. At least the badly placed САТУРН and subsecond dial looks too new (white).
I was actually thinking the dial is from Svet with the hand made hole for the calendar. But could not find the the exact model.
But I may be wrong...


----------



## SinanjuStein

AaParker said:


> Hello. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this Saturn! I have seen the white version on Watches of the USSR but I can't seem to find a good example of the black version except one that is here and has been redone: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VOSTOK-SAT...775902?hash=item5d8e80fa5e:g:D4YAAOSwEtRdNIZ3
> 
> 1960 catalog only had one example and it was different than this one. Crown and hands seem right for a Saturn, and it looks like it might be SATURN in Cyrillic under the magnifier crystal, but it's hard to say without something to compare it against. :think:
> 
> Thank you in advance for any opinions or impressions you have about the watch. I appreciate it!
> 
> View attachment 14477385
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477387
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477389
> 
> 
> View attachment 14477391


There's always the concept of warning marks. For me it starts with the replacement crystal with the "handmade" magnifier, and the suspicious hand painted text and weird reprinted subdial (see how it's smaller than the subdial recess). The hour and minute hands are off a different Saturn model, the white version with the semi gillouche dial should have lumed hands and lume pips IIRC, seconds hand is correct at least :-d

I think it's a old white dial that was repainted black, had the text printed and painted on and the indices put back on.


----------



## thewatchadude

Wow! With so much work on it, it becomes a collectable per se, even if non original!


----------



## AaParker

@Odessa and @SinanjuStein Many thanks for sharing your expertise. It is greatly appreciated!


----------



## AaParker

I always appreciate any opinions and thoughts so I'm asking what the forum thinks of this watch. Seller indicates it is from late '60s. I know these have a lot of very specific things about them that need to be checked to make sure they are authentic. Thank you very much!!!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> I always appreciate any opinions and thoughts so I'm asking what the forum thinks of this watch. Seller indicates it is from late '60s. I know these have a lot of very specific things about them that need to be checked to make sure they are authentic. Thank you very much!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14488711
> 
> 
> View attachment 14488713
> 
> 
> View attachment 14488715


Dial is from 70s (it is listed in the 1976 catalog). But I am not convinced bout the watch authenticity. The movement looks much younger. Lets see what other folks say. Attaching what I think it should be.


----------



## AaParker

Thank you, Odessa!  I forgot to include the example watch that I was using for comparison from Watches of the USSR. It is here:


----------



## capannelle

Double post


----------



## capannelle

I also have the same watch (383392).









It is present in the 1974 catalog with this type of case, but this model may have been produced even a few years earlier.









The golden case of your watch may have been replaced with a chrome case, but it is not possible to establish it with certainty


----------



## AaParker

capannelle said:


> I also have the same watch (383392).
> 
> View attachment 14490013
> 
> 
> It is present in the 1974 catalog with this type of case, but this model may have been produced even a few years earlier.
> 
> View attachment 14490015
> 
> 
> The golden case of your watch may have been replaced with a chrome case, but it is not possible to establish it with certainty


Thank you very much!


----------



## Odessa200

capannelle said:


> I also have the same watch (383392).
> 
> View attachment 14490013
> 
> 
> It is present in the 1974 catalog with this type of case, but this model may have been produced even a few years earlier.
> 
> View attachment 14490015
> 
> 
> The golden case of your watch may have been replaced with a chrome case, but it is not possible to establish it with certainty


Can you show how your movement looks like?


----------



## capannelle

Odessa200 said:


> Can you show how your movement looks like?


Ok, I will photograph the movement tomorrow


----------



## capannelle

My watch has the 2214 movement without hacking stop. 
Probably the movement has been replaced


----------



## Odessa200

capannelle said:


> My watch has the 2214 movement without hacking stop.
> Probably the movement has been replaced
> 
> View attachment 14492737


Maybe replaced or the hack was broken/taken out. Or even possibly that these watches were also made with 2214. But you can see the movement has a different (correct) finish from the movement in the watch that started this thread (that I believe is a franken with much younger movement)


----------



## junkman

This watch is probably a franke, right?
And is the dial original?
thanks















I add another, a raketa 24h. the real or fantasy wacth


----------



## Odessa200

junkman said:


> This watch is probably a franke, right?
> And is the dial original?
> thanks
> 
> View attachment 14498759
> View attachment 14498763
> 
> 
> I add another, a raketa 24h. the real or fantasy wacth
> View attachment 14498913
> 
> View attachment 14498919


Banana: I think real. 
24h: real but probably some special dial edition. Or can be a fantasy dial... ?


----------



## Kamburov

24 Raketa is franken for sure, as the inner bezel is from the wind rose model. Which is not a 24h watch.
As for the dial, it's very strange, can't tell what it is. And why are the numbers upside down? Strange design concept indeed!
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> 24 Raketa is franken for sure, as the inner bezel is from the wind rose model. Which is not a 24h watch.
> As for the dial, it's very strange, can't tell what it is. And why are the numbers upside down? Strange design concept indeed!
> Ivan


You are right. This inner dial threw me off and I failed to notice the the outer part from the wind rose... but the inner part has the S(outh) and N(orth) amd O(st) and E(est) so whoever did this went for the sides of the worlds design of some sort.


----------



## thewatchadude

Odessa200 said:


> Banana: I think real.
> 24h: real but probably some special dial edition. Or can be a fantasy dial... 🙂


I'm not sure what would make the banana a franken. it looks all good to me. I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell whether the movement is consistent in terms of period though. The dial loss authentic to me, and is quite desirable. A bit rare.

I've seen the 24h dial already. I think I remember it was once qualified as a Zodiac dial--hopefully I'm not confusing with another dial. Don't know if the various quarters have something to do with the Zodiac signs, maybe a Russian speaker could say.


----------



## dutchassasin

thewatchadude said:


> .
> 
> I've seen the 24h dial already. I think I remember it was once qualified as a Zodiac dial--hopefully I'm not confusing with another dial. Don't know if the various quarters have something to do with the Zodiac signs, maybe a Russian speaker could say.


Correct, the watch shown is missing the special rotating inner bezel. Picture taken from google:


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> I've seen the 24h dial already. I think I remember it was once qualified as a Zodiac dial--hopefully I'm not confusing with another dial. Don't know if the various quarters have something to do with the Zodiac signs, maybe a Russian speaker could say.


I see nothing russian on the dial. E O N S for east west north south are in the latin language group (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.). The other letters may be many things, including world countries or capitals. Not that good of a linguist  And what is UPM? And what bezel goes with it, if authentic (private order)? :think:
So many questions o|


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> thewatchadude said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen the 24h dial already. I think I remember it was once qualified as a Zodiac dial--hopefully I'm not confusing with another dial. Don't know if the various quarters have something to do with the Zodiac signs, maybe a Russian speaker could say.
> 
> 
> 
> I see nothing russian on the dial. E O N S for east west north south are in the latin language group (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.). The other letters may be many things, including world countries or capitals. Not that good of a linguist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And what is UPM? And what bezel goes with it, if authentic (private order)?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So many questions
Click to expand...

These are the Zodiac signs: Leo, Scorpio, etc.


----------



## thewatchadude

Kamburov said:


> I see nothing russian on the dial. E O N S for east west north south are in the latin language group (French, Spanish, Italian, etc.). The other letters may be many things, including world countries or capitals. Not that good of a linguist  And what is UPM? And what bezel goes with it, if authentic (private order)? :think:
> So many questions o|


Yep, you're right of course. I actually didn't pay enough attention. Just noticed the C on top of the dial, assumed it was North in Russian and then my brain overshadowed the fact that the rest of the dial was in latin letters. Thanks for putting things back into the right order.


----------



## Kamburov

dutchassasin said:


> Correct, the watch shown is missing the special rotating inner bezel. Picture taken from google:
> View attachment 14500181


thewatchadude, I see now what you meant! Thanks, dutchassasin, for posting the compete pic! So the zodiac is on the rotating bezel. Haven't seen one before.


----------



## thewatchadude

This case is not the usual one for raketa 24h I think.
Also noticed that the dial seems upside down, with South on top and East on the left (assuming these letters stand for the cardinal points). Strangely, this is true for both watches pictured here.
Then wondering which language is used (assuming O is for West).
Last, any idea on what the letters in the yellow circle stand for anyone?


----------



## AaParker

Duplicate


----------



## AaParker

thewatchadude said:


> This case is not the usual one for raketa 24h I think.
> Also noticed that the dial seems upside down, with South on top and East on the left (assuming these letters stand for the cardinal points). Strangely, this is true for both watches pictured here.
> Then wondering which language is used (assuming O is for West).
> Last, any idea on what the letters in the yellow circle stand for anyone?


My guess, as the watch has to do with Astrology, is that the yellow circle might stand for the different houses, but I really don't know anything about it. Just a guess as there are twelve houses and they seem to "line up" with what is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)


----------



## Kamburov

O could be or ouest, ovest or other similar. The case is raketa perpetual calendar, which is usually a sign of franken stuff going on. Convincingy uthentic watch is yet to be seen.
Obviously this watch is a thing, it's origins are clouded in mistery, however


----------



## thewatchadude

Cardinals and outer bezel would be consistent with Italian. I've not been able to find any translation of the houses names in Italian though, so I don't know whether the letters in the yellow part of the dial would be italian as well.


----------



## junkman

Good job, there are things that are so obvious that they escape you. thanks to everyone. I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.


----------



## SunnyOrange

Investigator work is always the most amusing thing on WUS : 

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/mystic-24h-raketa-1003145.html


----------



## AaParker

And the title of Forum Expert Detective goes to SunnyOrange today!


----------



## SunnyOrange

AaParker said:


> And the title of Forum Expert Detective goes to SunnyOrange today!


Thank you, AaParker!

I was so curious about those letters (R, MC, TF, VB, F...) and search gave no result, but when I connected Italian language, horoscope signs, some result was given.

At first I thought they were names of months, but letters are strange for that.

P.S. As you already know, Vintage & Pocket watches forum is full of this investigating work, revealing unknown brands, manufacturers, years of production, movements, etc., and it's real joy! ;-)


----------



## Kamburov

Some kind of a witchcraft tool! Raketa gone (ca)balistic (I'm making the cross hand sign) 
I bet the right combination opens a portal.
Good job, SunnyOrange!


----------



## Victorv

Duplicate post, sorry


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys

What do you think about this Amphibia? Do you know what case number is?

I think all parts are original, but i can't find It in any catalog. What do you think about his originality?

https://ibb.co/d6S7L3k
https://ibb.co/6DzH1J0
https://ibb.co/109yTDR
https://ibb.co/wh9TxkX


----------



## Kamburov

Victorv said:


> Hello guys
> 
> What do you think about this Amphibia? Do you know what case number is?
> 
> I think all parts are original, but i can't find It in any catalog. What do you think about his originality?


Looks good to me. Case is 020.
OOps, sorry, hands are modern replacements. No lume dot on the bezel.


----------



## Victorv

Kamburov said:


> Looks good to me. Case is 020.
> OOps, sorry, hands are modern replacements. No lume dot on the bezel.
> View attachment 14502785
> 
> View attachment 14502797


Ops, what a shame i was thinking all parts were original, why do you think the hands are new replacements?

Many many thanks for your help, and for finding the catalog image

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Victorv

Kamburov said:


> Looks good to me. Case is 020.
> OOps, sorry, hands are modern replacements. No lume dot on the bezel.
> View attachment 14502785
> 
> View attachment 14502797


The bezel could be the same, but without lume? Or do you think is a new replacement too?

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

Victorv said:


> The bezel could be the same, but without lume? Or do you think is a new replacement too?
> 
> Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


Can't say, but knowing how tough are these lume dots, my guess it's a replacement from a komandirskie watch. If someone made the effort to replace the hands, replacing the bezel is even easier.
It's still a nice watch, and replacements are very subtle. Looking at the aging of the dial, probably the hands and the bezel were worn, so the seller freshened the watch to make a better sale. The new set of hands cost some money, so he even made an investment. The changes may be counted as "modding", but since you make an enquiry in this thread, you deserve to be informed about them.
Ivan


----------



## capannelle

The color of this dial is green. Often with time and exposure to light it changes color and turns brown


----------



## SunnyOrange

I don't know if this is proper thread to post this, but I think it can be very useful. It is Dr. Ranfft's thread on Vintage & Pocket watches forum, about Slava watch (for those who haven't seen it) :

https://www.watchuseek.com/f11/most-complicated-assembly-ever-advance-date-pusher-5041803.html


----------



## Victorv

Kamburov said:


> Can't say, but knowing how tough are these lume dots, my guess it's a replacement from a komandirskie watch. If someone made the effort to replace the hands, replacing the bezel is even easier.
> It's still a nice watch, and replacements are very subtle. Looking at the aging of the dial, probably the hands and the bezel were worn, so the seller freshened the watch to make a better sale. The new set of hands cost some money, so he even made an investment. The changes may be counted as "modding", but since you make an enquiry in this thread, you deserve to be informed about them.
> Ivan


Many many thanks Kamburov,

Of course, i ask in this thread about an amphibia, and your answer is perfect, i was thinking all was original, and you detected that hands and bezel aren't

Many thanks friend

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Victorv

capannelle said:


> The color of this dial is green. Often with time and exposure to light it changes color and turns brown
> 
> View attachment 14505531


Many thanks capannelle

What a nice Green 

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## EndeavourDK

capannelle said:


> The color of this dial is green. Often with time and exposure to light it changes color and turns brown


I've seen a collector with three different colors of this wonderful dial; green, blue & black. Searching the internet I could only find a picture of the blue, but the black is somewhere out there too. I've two greens / brownish and haven't been able to find/purchase the other two colors ...... more rare I guess :think:
It's a wonderful dial !


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen a collector with three different colors of this wonderful dial; green, blue & black. Searching the internet I could only find a picture of the blue, but the black is somewhere out there too. I've two greens / brownish and haven't been able to find/purchase the other two colors ...... more rare I guess :think:
> It's a wonderful dial !


Wasn't aware of the different colors! Oh, God! Now I have to collect them 
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Wasn't aware of the different colors! Oh, God! Now I have to collect them
> Ivan


I desperately want the blue one, so please don't snatch that one in front of my nose :-d


----------



## Victorv

EndeavourDK said:


> I've seen a collector with three different colors of this wonderful dial; green, blue & black. Searching the internet I could only find a picture of the blue, but the black is somewhere out there too. I've two greens / brownish and haven't been able to find/purchase the other two colors ...... more rare I guess :think:
> It's a wonderful dial !


Wow what an amazing photo. Love this blue, and seems it have the same bezel as mine.

When It arrives i will show you better photos than the ones i post (Seller photos)

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## OrangeOrange

If the papers and watch are both matching and legit how much would be a fair price including shipping?


----------



## Odessa200

OrangeOrange said:


> View attachment 14514499
> View attachment 14514487
> View attachment 14514489
> View attachment 14514493
> 
> If the papers and watch are both matching and legit how much would be a fair price including shipping?


Looks good to me. I would say 150-200$.


----------



## Hartig

What do you think of this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/swinging-l...-30ATM-NVCH-/352611895813?txnId=1081581721022

Looks ok to me


----------



## Avidfan

OrangeOrange said:


> If the papers and watch are both matching and legit how much would be a fair price including shipping?


This old thread might be of interest: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/reference-scuba-dude-old-neptune-case-4948325.html


----------



## thewatchadude

OrangeOrange said:


> View attachment 14514499
> View attachment 14514487
> View attachment 14514489
> View attachment 14514493
> 
> If the papers and watch are both matching and legit how much would be a fair price including shipping?


The thing that surprises me is the watch designation number: 9190059. 059 is OK, I'm just wondering what 9190 is. I thought this case was 9370. Am I missing something?


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> The thing that surprises me is the watch designation number: 9190059. 059 is OK, I'm just wondering what 9190 is. I thought this case was 9370. Am I missing something?


I think this is why it's been for sale for so long...


----------



## Kamburov

thewatchadude said:


> The thing that surprises me is the watch designation number: 9190059. 059 is OK, I'm just wondering what 9190 is. I thought this case was 9370. Am I missing something?


Well spotted! Now I'm curious what's the 9190059.


----------



## AaParker

Hello!

As always I welcome your opinions and thoughts! Besides the hands possibly needing to be replaced, do you notice anything else wrong with this Watch & Clock Maker? It is a 2409A movement which is like the examples available. However, I have not been able to find a case with the bezel shown, thought the case looks like examples with just a different bezel. The bezel is reminiscent of an Amphibia so maybe the hands are correct? Either way, if everything else is correct, it is a very good deal and the hands could easily be replaced. But, I have to admit, I'm kind of liking the hands and might just want to call it a mod! 

Thank you for your thoughts!


----------



## Avidfan

AaParker said:


> Hello!
> 
> As always I welcome your opinions and thoughts! Besides the hands possibly needing to be replaced, do you notice anything else wrong with this Watch & Clock Maker? It is a 2409A movement which is like the examples available. However, I have not been able to find a case with the bezel shown, thought the case looks like examples with just a different bezel. The bezel is reminiscent of an Amphibia so maybe the hands are correct? Either way, if everything else is correct, it is a very good deal and the hands could easily be replaced. But, I have to admit, I'm kind of liking the hands and might just want to call it a mod!


It's a franken, those Amphibia hour and minute hands are new (note the short lume on the minute hand), also the watch has two serial numbers, one on the case back and another on the main plate under the balance which is a sure sign of a franken.


----------



## AaParker

Dup


----------



## AaParker

Avidfan said:


> It's a franken, those Amphibia hour and minute hands are new (note the short lume on the minute hand), also the watch has two serial numbers, one on the case back and another on the main plate under the balance which is a sure sign of a franken.


Thank you very much! There's so much to learn and you are all always extremely helpful! And a bit more looking at some additional examples,, I was also able to find the caseback should look like below and the movement would not be marked:


----------



## Kamburov

Avidfan is spot on. 
Just a thought, even if the amfibia hands were the old type, still don't look right on this W&CM. Komandirskie type would be more convincing. Haven't seen this particular model (dial) before.
Ivan


----------



## AaParker

Kamburov said:


> Avidfan is spot on.
> Just a thought, even if the amfibia hands were the old type, still don't look right on this W&CM. Komandirskie type would be more convincing. Haven't seen this particular model (dial) before.
> Ivan


Thank you very much! I think the dial looks like the one here: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/watch-and-clock-maker?lightbox=dataItem-ixjzf8ve but just a different color. I'm hoping to find a correct watch with the beige dial. Back to looking!


----------



## mariomart

thewatchadude said:


> The thing that surprises me is the watch designation number: 9190059. 059 is OK, I'm just wondering what 9190 is. I thought this case was 9370. Am I missing something?


I've just checked my spares box and found these 2 cases. I've provided comparison photo's below.

I believe the case on the left to be a 937 and the case on the right to be a 9190.

My observed differences are;

9190 has a smaller diameter crown tube (This could possibly be due to a repair)
9190 has thinner lug size of 8.5mm, whereas the 937 is 9.15mm.
9190 has a small machined slot on the lug.
9190 lug is machined with a curved side profile, whereas the 937 has a flat profile
Other than those differences both cases are almost identical in shape and size.

Hope this helps.

























Here is my 9190059


----------



## AaParker

Hello -- Not a specific question about a watch but a general question about movements. Is it okay to have both Latin and Cyrillic writing on a movement? I've seen a couple of examples, and I was curious if this was indicative of swapped parts or if it was acceptable. I know having a mix of Cyrillic and Latin on the dial is questionable. I've seen examples from both Petrodvorets and First Moscow Watch Factory. Thank you!

Examples:


----------



## Odessa200

If I have to generalize it would be:

1) If the dial of the watch is in Cyrillic (made for local market) then the movement will have only Cyrillic writing. Exception: ‘SU‘ stamp is permissible and happens frequently. 
2) If the dial is in Latin (export market watch) then the movement can have Cyrillic stamps. Not frequently but happens especially with an early models. 
3) Back cover wring language should match the dial language.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> If I have to generalize it would be:
> 
> 1) If the dial of the watch is in Cyrillic (made for local market) then the movement will have only Cyrillic writing. Exception: 'SU' stamp is permissible and happens frequently.
> 2) If the dial is in Latin (export market watch) then the movement can have Cyrillic stamps. Not frequently but happens especially with an early models.
> 3) Back cover wring language should match the dial language.


Thank you very much!


----------



## thebackflap

Hey everyone. I'm looking at this "Poljot De Luxe" on Etsy -- I suspect that it's a recase and perhaps also a redial, but I was wondering if anyone could verify/identify the movement. I'd be grateful to know what you all think.














Cheers!


----------



## haha

thebackflap said:


> Hey everyone. I'm looking at this "Poljot De Luxe" on Etsy -- I suspect that it's a recase and perhaps also a redial, but I was wondering if anyone could verify/identify the movement. I'd be grateful to know what you all think.
> View attachment 14529179
> View attachment 14529181
> 
> 
> Cheers!


Sorry to say, but this watch has everything wrong : case, dial, hands... and the movement, which is a later Luch one.


----------



## elsoldemayo

I forgot I had put a bid on this and had meant to check here before the auction ended. It looks good, but that's the worry, almost too good really. Thoughts?


----------



## Miguel Fazendas

It does look great!

I'm not an expert on these Start so we should wait for a more informed voice but, though redials of these are very common, they usually aren't lumed. It's in amazing condition if it's an original one


----------



## Kamburov

elsoldemayo said:


> I forgot I had put a bid on this and had meant to check here before the auction ended. It looks good, but that's the worry, almost too good really. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 14529455
> 
> 
> View attachment 14529457


I would trust schnurrp's opinion on these (among others), but this looks legit judging by the lume. Mine (dated 3-57 too) says "2nd Moscow watch factory", where this says "made in USSR".
Looks like an excellent example. Hope this gets confirmed by other more knowledgeable comrades.
Ivan


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot I had put a bid on this and had meant to check here before the auction ended. It looks good, but that's the worry, almost too good really. Thoughts?
> 
> View attachment 14529455
> 
> 
> View attachment 14529457
> 
> 
> 
> I would trust schnurrp's opinion on these (among others), but this looks legit judging by the lume. Mine (dated 3-57 too) says "2nd Moscow watch factory", where this says "made in USSR".
> Looks like an excellent example. Hope this gets confirmed by other more knowledgeable comrades.
> Ivan
Click to expand...

I have 2 Starts from 1956 and 1959 and both say '2nd Moscow Watch Factory'. Also the sub-dial has the black circle around the marks. So this one may have been retouched but it does look really good and genuine. Movement is right.

Edit: actually I am mot sure about the balance. Should it have the screws pointing in other direction?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Miguel Fazendas said:


> It does look great!
> 
> I'm not an expert on these Start so we should wait for a more informed voice but, though redials of these are very common, they usually aren't lumed. It's in amazing condition if it's an original one





Kamburov said:


> I would trust schnurrp's opinion on these (among others), but this looks legit judging by the lume. Mine (dated 3-57 too) says "2nd Moscow watch factory", where this says "made in USSR".
> Looks like an excellent example. Hope this gets confirmed by other more knowledgeable comrades.
> Ivan





Odessa200 said:


> I have 2 Starts from 1956 and 1959 and both say '2nd Moscow Watch Factory'. Also the sub-dial has the black circle around the marks. So this one may have been retouched but it does look really good and genuine. Movement is right.
> 
> Edit: actually I am mot sure about the balance. Should it have the screws pointing in other direction?


Examining it more closely (as i should have done earlier) definitely some modifications as the second hand should not extend outside the sub-dial.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Miguel Fazendas said:


> It does look great!
> 
> I'm not an expert on these Start so we should wait for a more informed voice but, though redials of these are very common, they usually aren't lumed. It's in amazing condition if it's an original one





Kamburov said:


> I would trust schnurrp's opinion on these (among others), but this looks legit judging by the lume. Mine (dated 3-57 too) says "2nd Moscow watch factory", where this says "made in USSR".
> Looks like an excellent example. Hope this gets confirmed by other more knowledgeable comrades.
> Ivan





Odessa200 said:


> I have 2 Starts from 1956 and 1959 and both say '2nd Moscow Watch Factory'. Also the sub-dial has the black circle around the marks. So this one may have been retouched but it does look really good and genuine. Movement is right.
> 
> Edit: actually I am mot sure about the balance. Should it have the screws pointing in other direction?


Examining it more closely (as i should have done earlier) definitely some modifications as the second hand should not extend outside the sub-dial.


----------



## Kamburov

Agree with you, guys. A few strange things with the Start. Odessa is also right about the ballance screws.
These starts have been produced with different subdials and second hands (also batton), but this might be the wrong combination. Way back in this thread it has been disscussed with lots of pictures, but I can't find it. That's why I mentioned schnurrp, he has a good collection of them.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Hmm, the catalog pictures seem to show the second hand extending beyond the outer edge of the sub-dial.


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> Hmm, the catalog pictures seem to show the second hand extending beyond the outer edge of the sub-dial.


I have a theory but could not find a proof. If you look up this style for sale you will see that most have the sub-dial partially cutting out the 6. Mine Start is exactly same: top portion of the 6 is chopped off by the dial. In the catalog, the 6 is completely painted and appears same size as what I have. Given the location of the subdial center is predetermined, it leave us with 1 option. At one time the subdial was smaller, 6 was not cut and the second hand extended a bit past the subdial. Then (or before) the subdial was enlarged, cut part of the 6 but the second hand fits now. What do you say?

Now that I have written this, I realize the second hand can be of different lengths.... does anyone have a watch just as catalog shows?


----------



## Kamburov

elsoldemayo said:


> Hmm, the catalog pictures seem to show the second hand extending beyond the outer edge of the sub-dial.


There are different variations of the subdials and second hands on these starts. Subdial is different patterns, but also two different sizes (as Odessa rightly noticed). Mine is the larger circle, so the hand stays well within. 
As I said, there are members here owning a few of those variations, so they can say if this is a legit combination.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm, the catalog pictures seem to show the second hand extending beyond the outer edge of the sub-dial.
> 
> 
> 
> There are different variations of the subdials and second hands on these starts. Subdial is different patterns, but also two different sizes (as Odessa rightly noticed). Mine is the larger circle, so the hand stays well within.
> As I said, there are members here owning a few of those variations, so they can say if this is a legit combination.
Click to expand...

Yep. To sum up the issues we identified with the Start watch in question:
1) balance is replaced
2) dial was potentially re-touched

And another side effect of this discussion: one of my Starts has a shock proof balance 🙂. Oops. Already bough a donor to cannibalize the balance.


----------



## thebackflap

Thank you -- it's unfortunate that true stainless/chrome cases are so rare, I really do prefer it over the gilded and am willing to compromise on casing for the sake of aesthetics; the fact that there are so many of these out there with the wrong movement is frustrating, especially for a newbie like me. But it's a learning process and part of collecting!


----------



## Odessa200

thebackflap said:


> Thank you -- it's unfortunate that true stainless/chrome cases are so rare, I really do prefer it over the gilded and am willing to compromise on casing for the sake of aesthetics; the fact that there are so many of these out there with the wrong movement is frustrating, especially for a newbie like me. But it's a learning process and part of collecting!


The movement is right. Balance is slightly of a different design. This is a 60 years old watch without a shockproof balance. No wander the balance got broken one day. The watchmaster did a good job: he put a very similar balance in. For a regular person, not a collector, no issues at all. Would be even better if the master had offered a shockproof balance but the owner may have said: 'no thanks, I do not want to pay extra 3 rubles for a better balance, I will be more careful next time'. So this replaced balance is part of a normal evolution a watch that is used goes through. Changing a balance is relatively simple. Getting a new case and dial and hands harder. To me, a fake dial is a deal breaker. Wrong balance is fixable.

As far as the dial. I went and searched on another forum and found out that indeed there is a big and small subdial. Small is more rare (older versions). And I found 2 'made in ussr'. Look. So I would say, the only thing that is wrong with the original Start: the balance is of a different design. It is a correct non shockproof one.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thanks for all the input Odessa & Kamburov. It shows the difficulty in confirming with any certainty the authenticity of 60 year old watches, but based on the information shared, I'm leaning towards any modifications from how it left the factory being down to the natural repairs required over half a century.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> The movement is right. Balance is slightly of a different design. This is a 60 years old watch without a shockproof balance. No wander the balance got broken one day. The watchmaster did a good job: he put a very similar balance in. For a regular person, not a collector, no issues at all. Would be even better if the master had offered a shockproof balance but the owner may have said: 'no thanks, I do not want to pay extra 3 rubles for a better balance, I will be more careful next time'. So this replaced balance is part of a normal evolution a watch that is used goes through. Changing a balance is relatively simple. Getting a new case and dial and hands harder. To me, a fake dial is a deal breaker. Wrong balance is fixable.
> 
> As far as the dial. I went and searched on another forum and found out that indeed there is a big and small subdial. Small is more rare (older versions). And I found 2 'made in ussr'. Look. So I would say, the only thing that is wrong with the original Start: the balance is of a different design. It is a correct non shockproof one.


I think the fat second hand should be on the larger subdial with individual second marks:


----------



## schnurrp

schnurrp said:


> I think the fat second hand should be on the larger subdial with individual second marks:
> 
> View attachment 14533043


The catalog picture showing the fat second hand on the small sub-dial is, to me, simply a mistake.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Can one of the expert please tell me if this dial has ever been an official Soviet Poljot dial or is it a fantasy? If it isn't a fantasy, is this a reprint or original Soviet? What about the hands?
My order by eBay seller "Sonnenflasche", aka comrade Juri Levenberg, isn't going that smooth and certainly not as per original order.


----------



## AaParker

Just thought this was an interesting watch. An artistic re-imagined dial or legit? Second hand? I know there was a great interest in space age items and many watches had rockets on them including Vymple, Poljot and Vostok (information I got here from some very helpful forum members!), but I've not seen this dial. And maybe should be in "Interesting and Unusual thread", but I'm actually kind of interested if it is thought to be legitimate. Cannot see Made in CCCP, but that is also missing from many early watches on Watches of the USSR. But, I'm also too trusting and if someone states it is real in their sales posting, I am included to believe them even with every reason not to do so. But, trying to be more critical in my thinking!


----------



## SunnyOrange

AaParker said:


> Just thought this was an interesting watch. An artistic re-imagined dial or legit? Second hand? I know there was a great interest in space age items and many watches had rockets on them including Vymple, Poljot and Vostok (information I got here from some very helpful forum members!), but I've not seen this dial. And maybe should be in "Interesting and Unusual thread", but I'm actually kind of interested if it is thought to be legitimate. Cannot see Made in CCCP, but that is also missing from many early watches on Watches of the USSR. But, I'm also too trusting and if someone states it is real in their sales posting, I am included to believe them even with every reason not to do so. But, trying to be more critical in my thinking!
> 
> View attachment 14533547


You are the source of unusual dials, AaParker! ;-)

I haven't seen a dial like this before, it's rather strange. Numerals look good, and this type of numerals are often present in vintage watches with radium paint (I don't say this is the case).

But the 'drawing' on the inside looks like a drawing for a kid's watch.
There is small CCCP on the globe, and that moon is so cute!

Someone with more knowledge will tell you more about the watch (Sportivnie, I suppose).


----------



## Odessa200

SunnyOrange said:


> AaParker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just thought this was an interesting watch. An artistic re-imagined dial or legit? Second hand? I know there was a great interest in space age items and many watches had rockets on them including Vymple, Poljot and Vostok (information I got here from some very helpful forum members!), but I've not seen this dial. And maybe should be in "Interesting and Unusual thread", but I'm actually kind of interested if it is thought to be legitimate. Cannot see Made in CCCP, but that is also missing from many early watches on Watches of the USSR. But, I'm also too trusting and if someone states it is real in their sales posting, I am included to believe them even with every reason not to do so. But, trying to be more critical in my thinking!
> 
> View attachment 14533547
> 
> 
> 
> You are the source of unusual dials, AaParker!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't seen a dial like this before, it's rather strange. Numerals look good, and this type of numerals are often present in vintage watches with radium paint (I don't say this is the case).
> 
> But the 'drawing' on the inside looks like a drawing for a kid's watch.
> There is small CCCP on the globe, and that moon is so cute!
> 
> Someone with more knowledge will tell you more about the watch (Sportivnie, I suppose).
Click to expand...

I have seen these before. This is for sure not a one of a kind. I believe this is an Artel' dial (small manufactures producing unusual dials). So, in my books, this is a legit Soviet watch (although the dial is not made by an state controlled watch factory).

Now, this movement suppose to have the second hand and a hacking complication. Chances are the second hand axe got broken off and the hand was removed. Whatever it has the hack or not is hard to tell.

The remaining 2 hands are from different watches as far as I can see. I think the hour hand is from Pobeda. Minute hand possibly from Sportinvinie. Need to check the catalog.


----------



## AaParker

SunnyOrange said:


> You are the source of unusual dials, AaParker! ;-)
> 
> I haven't seen a dial like this before, it's rather strange. Numerals look good, and this type of numerals are often present in vintage watches with radium paint (I don't say this is the case).
> 
> But the 'drawing' on the inside looks like a drawing for a kid's watch.
> There is small CCCP on the globe, and that moon is so cute!
> 
> Someone with more knowledge will tell you more about the watch (Sportivnie, I suppose).


I really like it too, SunnyOrange. It is so evocative of not just a different time but of a different world when it was smaller than it is now before people went beyond the sky and landed on the moon!


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I have seen these before. This is for sure not a one of a kind. I believe this is an Artel' dial (small manufactures producing unusual dials). So, in my books, this is a legit Soviet watch (although the dial is not made by an state controlled watch factory).
> 
> Now, this movement suppose to have the second hand and a hacking complication. Chances are the second hand axe got broken off and the hand was removed. Whatever it has the hack or not is hard to tell.
> 
> The remaining 2 hands are from different watches as far as I can see. I think the hour hand is from Pobeda. Minute hand possibly from Sportinvinie. Need to check the catalog.


Thank you very much for the information Odessa. I am always grateful for your willingness to share your knowledge. I really appreciate it. I think I'll make offer. We will see!


----------



## Chascomm

EndeavourDK said:


> Can one of the expert please tell me if this dial has ever been an official Soviet Poljot dial or is it a fantasy? If it isn't a fantasy, is this a reprint or original Soviet? What about the hands?
> My order by eBay seller "Sonnenflasche", aka comrade Juri Levenberg, isn't going that smooth and certainly not as per original order.


The dial is marked in English for TELEMETER and USSR but branded КАПИТАН with a П that looks distinctly improvised. In addition to that, I'm pretty sure this style of case with the non-functional slide-rule was not available in the Soviet era. I'm calling fantasy.

I might be wrong.


----------



## stevarad

EndeavourDK said:


> Can one of the expert please tell me if this dial has ever been an official Soviet Poljot dial or is it a fantasy? If it isn't a fantasy, is this a reprint or original Soviet? What about the hands?
> My order by eBay seller "Sonnenflasche", aka comrade Juri Levenberg, isn't going that smooth and certainly not as per original order.


It is Levenberg's design dial. He used it in his watches. I think it was usually in sturmanskie case earlier.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## EndeavourDK

Chascomm said:


> The dial is marked in English for TELEMETER and USSR but branded КАПИТАН with a П that looks distinctly improvised. In addition to that, I'm pretty sure this style of case with the non-functional slide-rule was not available in the Soviet era. I'm calling fantasy.
> 
> I might be wrong.





stevarad said:


> It is Levenberg's design dial. He used it in his watches. I think it was usually in sturmanskie case earlier.
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


The problem is that I negotiated & ordered this case with the white Ruslan Antonov dial + hands, a (as far as I know) legit post-Soviet combination. Paid for it, received conformation and the parcel tracking number ....... only a few hours later to receive an email saying that the Antonov dial and hands are out of stock :-( :-|
That was last week Wednesday. They offered some other dials instead, but due to poor communication / German holidays it is still unclear which ones those are ? ..... so I'm preparing and trying to find out the legibility of this dial which they have in their assortment ...... next to my suspicion about this dial, your comments seem to confirm. Unless there is dial on offer with really fits to this case (like the white Ruslan Antonov), I may cancel the whole deal. ........ hopefully I'll receive today some information & clarity :think:


----------



## stevarad

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



EndeavourDK said:


> The problem is that I negotiated & ordered this case with the white Ruslan Antonov dial + hands, a (as far as I know) legit post-Soviet combination. Paid for it, received conformation and the parcel tracking number ....... only a few hours later to receive an email saying that the Antonov dial and hands are out of stock :-( :-|
> That was last week Wednesday. They offered some other dials instead, but due to poor communication / German holidays it is still unclear which ones those are ? ..... so I'm preparing and trying to find out the legibility of this dial which they have in their assortment ...... next to my suspicion about this dial, your comments seem to confirm. Unless there is dial on offer with really fits to this case (like the white Ruslan Antonov), I may cancel the whole deal. ........ hopefully I'll receive today some information & clarity :think:


Post other available dials, maybe there is something legit for this case.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## tlass123

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

Picked up this little sportivnie today. Looks like in very good shape for a 1957 watch...What do the experts think?


----------



## Odessa200

tlass123 said:


> Picked up this little sportivnie today. Looks like in very good shape for a 1957 watch...What do the experts think?


Welcome to the forum!

Not sure what experts think 🙂 but it looks good to me. Do you have a photo of the mechanism?

Btw, this is Model ЧН-326К.


----------



## arkitec

Franken?


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think of this Amphibia? Do you know some calalog i can find it?





Many many thanks in advance


----------



## Victorv

Sorry.. double post


----------



## mariomart

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think of this Amphibia? Do you know some catalog i can find it?
> 
> Many many thanks in advance


Here is a scan of the 1990 Tento Vostok Catalogue. It should have a different bezel with luminous pip.


----------



## Victorv

mariomart said:


> Here is a scan of the 1990 Tento Vostok Catalogue. It should have a different bezel with luminous pip.
> 
> View attachment 14552449


Many many thanks Mario,  really nice information


----------



## schnurrp

Hour dots appear to have been re-lumed to match hour bars' color. "12" has lost its orange color from sun exposure, a common happening for these and other dials with orange markings.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Hour dots appear to have been re-lumed to match hour bars' color. "12" has lost its orange color from sun exposure, a common happening for these and other dials with orange markings.


Wooow the "12" should be Orange. What a nice information, Many many thanks for your opinion, mate.

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## haha

arkitec said:


> Franken?
> View attachment 14551595


I don't know this particular version, but i don't see anything wrong.
What makes you doubt about it ?


----------



## Odessa200

haha said:


> arkitec said:
> 
> 
> 
> Franken?
> View attachment 14551595
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know this particular version, but i don't see anything wrong.
> What makes you doubt about it ?
Click to expand...

Looks right to me.


----------



## jimzilla

Has anyone seen these numerals on the watch case before? New to me! your expertise is appreciated, thank you in advance.


----------



## EndeavourDK

I haven't noticed those numbers either ...... I guess you do know that the rest is modern and doubtful ..... would pass it big time !


----------



## thewatchadude

Deleted


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Has anyone seen these numerals on the watch case before? New to me! your expertise is appreciated, thank you in advance.


I've got a couple of Komandirskie cases with these numbers stamped on the case which will be usually hidden under the bezel, seem to remember they were both stamped "5", perhaps a QC mark? :think:


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I haven't noticed those numbers either ...... I guess you do know that the rest is modern and doubtful ..... would pass it big time !


Original dial that I seem to remember from a recent post comrade Jimzilla had relumed by Favinov, and I think he knows the hands are new ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

Looks like other comrades have also found numbers stamped on their Vostok cases :-d https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/no-5-stamped-case-2339170.html


----------



## mariomart

Double


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> Looks like other comrades have also found numbers stamped on their Vostok cases :-d https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/no-5-stamped-case-2339170.html


I just checked all the old vintage cases in my parts bin and found all the 119, 937 and 919 stainless steel cases had stamped numbers on the bezel machined area. The numbers ranged from 1, 2, 5, 7, 11, 12 and 15.


----------



## MattBrace

mariomart said:


> Avidfan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like other comrades have also found numbers stamped on their Vostok cases
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/no-5-stamped-case-2339170.html
> 
> 
> 
> I just checked all the old vintage cases in my parts bin and found all the 119, 937 and 919 stainless steel cases had stamped numbers on the bezel machined area. The numbers ranged from 1, 2, 5, 7, 11, 12 and 15.
> 
> View attachment 14582683
Click to expand...

Production line numbers, most cases have them but not all. For QC purposes I guess?

Cheers...


----------



## jimzilla

As always thank you guys for clearing things up.


----------



## skipvel

Any idea of what year this might be? (or if it looks right) Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

skipvel said:


> Any idea of what year this might be? (or if it looks right) Thanks
> View attachment 14585995
> View attachment 14585997


Probably 2000 or so. Looks like these but I am not an experts in post ussr watches.


----------



## Snowlux

Hey all,

I am interested in this 80's Raketa. Someone on another thread told me that the movement looks like it is later, while the dial has the earlier cursive logo. Is it legit or should I move on?

Thanks!


----------



## SinanjuStein

A H.A (Though technically read as N.A in Cyrillic) marked movement is correct for the 80's time period, and the other 4 examples i found also have a later H.A marked movement.


----------



## Odessa200

Snowlux said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I am interested in this 80's Raketa. Someone on another thread told me that the movement looks like it is later, while the dial has the earlier cursive logo. Is it legit or should I move on?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 14599619
> View attachment 14599621
> View attachment 14599623





SinanjuStein said:


> A H.A (Though technically read as N.A in Cyrillic) marked movement is correct for the 80's time period, and the other 4 examples i found also have a later H.A marked movement.


That someone is me. The question is not about HA movement. Yes, this is right for this model. The question is about when this particular movement was made and how it is finished and was this movement or exact copy of it originally in the watch. Here are 2609.HA from 2 random Raketas from my collection. One has a cursive on the dial and another has capital logo. Do you see the difference? Cursive Raketas are produced earlier and have earlier version of the movements. Capital Raketas produced later and have the later more simply cut version of the movement. Then I had checked another 5 or 6 raketa in my possession that I believe are authentic. Same pattern. Now, all rules have exception. I am sure there was a transition time when the factory was switching from old mechanism evolution to the new one. Same for the dials. Is it possible that the surplus of the old dials were placed on the new watches? Yes, it is possible. Does this matter to you in your purchasing decision? You decide. Good luck!


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> That someone is me. The question is not about HA movement. Yes, this is right for this model. The question is about when this particular movement was made and how it is finished and was this movement or exact copy of it originally in the watch. Here are 2609.HA from 2 random Raketas from my collection. One has a cursive on the dial and another has capital logo. Do you see the difference? Cursive Raketas are produced earlier and have earlier version of the movements. Capital Raketas produced later and have the later more simply cut version of the movement. Then I had checked another 5 or 6 raketa in my possession that I believe are authentic. Same pattern. Now, all rules have exception. I am sure there was a transition time when the factory was switching from old mechanism evolution to the new one. Same for the dials. Is it possible that the surplus of the old dials were placed on the new watches? Yes, it is possible. Does this matter to you in your purchasing decision? You decide. Good luck!


I see what you mean, the cuts of the bridges are different along with what seems to be a different spacer fitting.

Thought the differences were only apparent in older variants of Raketas like the A.1 (Or A.I, i don't remember) and N.P variants which have different bridges altogether. I would show a comparison picture, but the only one i can find of my own is a 2609A.I and a somewhat franken 2628.H/2609H.A movement from the dial side of the mainplate.

Then again, Raketa's aren't usually what i delve in and i should get some screwdriver on experience with them. (i've had a bad luck run with them)

As far as the guy who was asking about it originally, i wouldn't find it to be a major concern but that's up to you. And the seller isn't overpricing it too much.


----------



## Straight_time

There's another pattern we can notice in comrade Odessa200's movements: the earlier one is numbered on the main plate (under the balance wheel), while the later one isn't.

It should then be logical to assume that, as it happened for instance also on Vostoks, numbered movements pair with non-numbered casebacks and vice versa.
Therefore IMHO the watch we are discussing now (model 2609HA/346764 pictured on the 1989 Raketa catalog), having a later non-numbered movement and a numbered caseback, is most likely completely original.



PS - the cursive font on the dial shouldn't be taken as a reference to date a watch, because several models with such pattern still appear on the last (Soviet) Raketa catalog for export, published in 1991.


----------



## Snowlux

Straight_time said:


> There's another pattern we can notice in comrade Odessa200's movements: the earlier one is numbered on the main plate (under the balance wheel), while the later one isn't.
> 
> It should then be logical to assume that, as it happened for instance also on Vostoks, numbered movements pair with non-numbered casebacks and vice versa.
> Therefore IMHO the watch we are discussing now (model 2609HA/346764 pictured on the 1989 Raketa catalog), having a later non-numbered movement and a numbered caseback, is most likely completely original.
> 
> PS - the cursive font on the dial shouldn't be taken as a reference to date a watch, because several models with such pattern still appear on the last (Soviet) Raketa catalog for export, published in 1991.


Thanks for clarifying! Very helpful technical info. I pulled the trigger and am happy to have it on the way!

Much appreciation to everyone who has helped me in this first purchase and special thanks to Odessa. What a great online community you all have here!


----------



## Odessa200

Snowlux said:


> Straight_time said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's another pattern we can notice in comrade Odessa200's movements: the earlier one is numbered on the main plate (under the balance wheel), while the later one isn't.
> 
> It should then be logical to assume that, as it happened for instance also on Vostoks, numbered movements pair with non-numbered casebacks and vice versa.
> Therefore IMHO the watch we are discussing now (model 2609HA/346764 pictured on the 1989 Raketa catalog), having a later non-numbered movement and a numbered caseback, is most likely completely original.
> 
> PS - the cursive font on the dial shouldn't be taken as a reference to date a watch, because several models with such pattern still appear on the last (Soviet) Raketa catalog for export, published in 1991.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for clarifying! Very helpful technical info. I pulled the trigger and am happy to have it on the way!
> 
> Much appreciation to everyone who has helped me in this first purchase and special thanks to Odessa. What a great online community you all have here!
Click to expand...

Not sure it adds to the discussion but was browsing parts for sale and stumbled at 2 Raketas like this. One with cursive and one in capital letters. Both have same mechanism. Given these are offered for parts (and usually people do not try to franken parts especially for a watch like this) we can for sure conclude that both styles were made with this movement and hence the watch in question is totally legit as we had all agreed.


----------



## leokoerner

Looking for a Raketa Polar, how does this one look?
eBay


----------



## schnurrp

leokoerner said:


> Looking for a Raketa Polar, how does this one look?
> eBay
> View attachment 14608377


Okay for what it is, comrade, but I've never seen any conclusive proof that they came from the Raketa factory. What does the movement look like? These are often found with converted 2609 (12 hr.) movements, origin unknown.


----------



## dutchassasin

schnurrp said:


> Okay for what it is, comrade, but I've never seen any conclusive proof that they came from the Raketa factory. What does the movement look like? These are often found with converted 2609 (12 hr.) movements, origin unknown.


i cannot say the watch depicted is 100% original, but what we know is that Raketa did use this dial design back in 2008.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> leokoerner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking for a Raketa Polar, how does this one look?
> eBay
> View attachment 14608377
> 
> 
> 
> Okay for what it is, comrade, but I've never seen any conclusive proof that they came from the Raketa factory. What does the movement look like? These are often found with converted 2609 (12 hr.) movements, origin unknown.
Click to expand...




dutchassasin said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay for what it is, comrade, but I've never seen any conclusive proof that they came from the Raketa factory. What does the movement look like? These are often found with converted 2609 (12 hr.) movements, origin unknown.
> 
> 
> 
> i cannot say the watch depicted is 100% original, but what we know is that Raketa did use this dial design back in 2008.
> View attachment 14608717
Click to expand...

I believe these are fakes. How a dial with 'made in USSR' be from 2008?

This particular listing has the movement 2614.... ?


----------



## dutchassasin

Odessa200 said:


> I believe these are fakes. How a dial with 'made in USSR' be from 2008


You can check it yourself on this Raketa website backup.
https://www.raketa24.com/Raketa-2008/products3.html


----------



## AaParker

Hello -- I'm hoping for any expert opinion on this Poljot Deluxe. I've been looking for one with the two indices at the twelve and I think this one might be correct. Are the hands correct or should they be the more triangular ones? And, of course, any other thoughts! I thank you very much.


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe these are fakes. How a dial with 'made in USSR' be from 2008
> 
> 
> 
> You can check it yourself on this Raketa website backup.
> https://www.raketa24.com/Raketa-2008/products3.html
Click to expand...

Thanks. Interesting. Some have 'made in russia' some 'made in ussr' on one web page... At we know that some of these truly exist. Great. The watch in question, given the wrong caliber is obviously something NOT to buy...


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello -- I'm hoping for any expert opinion on this Poljot Deluxe. I've been looking for one with the two indices at the twelve and I think this one might be correct. Are the hands correct or should they be the more triangular ones? And, of course, any other thoughts! I thank you very much.
> 
> View attachment 14609269
> 
> 
> View attachment 14609275
> 
> 
> View attachment 14609277
> 
> 
> View attachment 14609337


This one looks very nice to me. I believe all is correct. Most of the models with 2 slashes have triangular hands but I saw some with the skinny hands. Here is one and I think this is what you found.

The only tiny imperfection I see is the back cover. It is from Luch (cause of the straight polishing). Poljot has radial polishing. But this is soooo minor. And easily fixable.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> This one looks very nice to me. I believe all is correct. Most of the models with 2 slashes have triangular hands but I saw some with the skinny hands. Here is one and I think this is what you found.
> 
> The only tiny imperfection I see is the back cover. It is from Luch (cause of the straight polishing). Poljot has radial polishing. But this is soooo minor. And easily fixable.


Thank you very much! I really appreciate it.


----------



## dutchassasin

i think this okeah looks good, any opions?


----------



## AaParker

One more quick question, and as always, thank you! What do you think of the dial on this Poljot. Tropical , faded or original? Everything else might be okay? Seller indicates it is a 2409 from the 1970s but I cannot find any other examples with that color. Thank you!


----------



## haha

AaParker said:


> One more quick question, and as always, thank you! What do you think of the dial on this Poljot. Tropical , faded or original? Everything else might be okay? Seller indicates it is a 2409 from the 1970s but I cannot find any other examples with that color. Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 14610853


The dial is correct, but the hands are wrong. 
You can find it in the 1971 Poljot catalog under the number 543287.

Here's mine


----------



## AaParker

haha said:


> The dial is correct, but the hands are wrong.
> You can find it in the 1971 Poljot catalog under the number 543287.
> 
> Here's mine
> View attachment 14610935


Perfect! Thank you very much! And a wonderful example you have!


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> i think this okeah looks good, any opions?


Looks good to me.


----------



## haha

AaParker said:


> Perfect! Thank you very much! And a wonderful example you have!


You're welcome, and thank you for your appreciation.


----------



## dutchassasin

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me.


Thx, cant be too careful with these for every good one there are 9 bad ones.


----------



## RedFroggy

Privet ,

Can you please give me your views on this supposedly early 3133 Chrono model.






























It looks ok to me but there seem to be issues :

- the lume shade & freshness make me believe the hours & minutes hands have been replaced,
- the orange seconds & the red minutes sub-dial clearly dont match . I assume the seconds hand would be more matching the dial & bezel ?

Thanks


----------



## dutchassasin

RedFroggy said:


> It looks ok to me but there seem to be issues :
> 
> - the lume shade & freshness make me believe the hours & minutes hands have been replaced,
> - the orange seconds & the red minutes sub-dial clearly dont match . I assume the seconds hand would be more matching the dial & bezel ?
> 
> Thanks


I have to agree on your remarks but these can be fixed. Main point of buying an early one is the movement. Make sure its 100% correct.


----------



## MattBrace

dutchassasin said:


> i think this okeah looks good, any opions?


GO Flight!


----------



## dutchassasin

MattBrace said:


> GO Flight!


Id take it as positive otherwise you'd have said to F##king RUNNNN!!!! 🙂

Btw did you already managed to fit the dial into to bum case?


----------



## MattBrace

dutchassasin said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> GO Flight!
> 
> 
> 
> Id take it as positive otherwise you'd have said to F##king RUNNNN!!!! ?
> 
> Btw did you already managed to fit the dial into to bum case?
Click to expand...

NASA speak! (As in its looking good to me)

Vostok "Lugs on the Bum" https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4995557

Cheers...


----------



## dutchassasin

MattBrace said:


> NASA speak! (As in its looking good to me)
> 
> Vostok "Lugs on the Bum" https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4995557
> 
> Cheers...


Thx mate, completely missed the update on the bum vostok. It looks stellar, the design is way ahead of its time! 
The thread must have been burried quick in the sea of threads before i could notice.


----------



## MattBrace

dutchassasin said:


> MattBrace said:
> 
> 
> 
> NASA speak! (As in its looking good to me)
> 
> Vostok "Lugs on the Bum" https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=4995557
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> Thx mate, completely missed the update on the bum vostok. It looks stellar, the design is way ahead of its time!
> The thread must have been burried quick in the sea of threads before i could notice.
Click to expand...

Thanks to you as well Dutch, I never thought I would be able to complete the watch.

Cheers...


----------



## schnurrp

RedFroggy said:


> Privet ,
> 
> Can you please give me your views on this supposedly early 3133 Chrono model.
> 
> View attachment 14611343
> 
> View attachment 14611371
> 
> View attachment 14611373
> 
> View attachment 14611375
> 
> 
> It looks ok to me but there seem to be issues :
> 
> - the lume shade & freshness make me believe the hours & minutes hands have been replaced,
> - the orange seconds & the red minutes sub-dial clearly dont match . I assume the seconds hand would be more matching the dial & bezel ?
> 
> Thanks


Agree and looking at the color differnce between the back & bracelet and the case and the two winders I see the cold look of chrome-plating.


----------



## RedFroggy

Thanks vm for you appraisal Schnurpp . Are you talking about the case ? 
I was under the impression the military Sturmanskie were fitted with stainless steel cases . I do also believe that on the specimen that it is chromium-plated casing with a plain steel case back. I could be wrong but isn't it how it should be on early civilian chrono as it seems to be on all civi featured on Polmax site for the 81-85 period ?



schnurrp said:


> Agree and looking at the color differnce between the back & bracelet and the case and the two winders I see the cold look of chrome-plating.


----------



## schnurrp

.


----------



## schnurrp

RedFroggy said:


> Thanks vm for you appraisal Schnurpp . Are you talking about the case ?
> I was under the impression the military Sturmanskie were fitted with stainless steel cases . I do also believe that on the specimen that it is chromium-plated casing with a plain steel case back. I could be wrong but isn't it how it should be on early civilian chrono as it seems to be on all civi featured on Polmax site for the 81-85 period ?


Yes, I believe all the military-issued sturmanskies and Okeahs had stainless steel cases unless it's some very early variation I'm not familiar with. That one looks chrome-plated to me.


----------



## Snowlux

How does this Poljot look and what decade are we thinking? It's advertised as 60's/70's but I haven't been able to find it in any of the catalogues.


----------



## haha

Looks fine to me, but it's much younger. Late 70's/80's.
Parts of the movement have been replaced as you can see in the different finish.
Very low value for sure.


----------



## Odessa200

Even later that that. Take a look at the 1992 catalog. Case looks like from an older model. Dial and parts of the movement from the later 1992. Franken in my view. And, as usual with many Frankens, white gloves are used to fool people into thinking this is a rare treasure that can only be handed in white gloves....


----------



## Snowlux

This might seem obvious to some of the veterans out there, but I came across a seller on ebay who is selling a number of items as "old stock" which basically look new. They aren't advertised as "NOS," but that is certainly the implication. The thing is, it's hard for me to imagine one seller having so many NOS items for sale at a time and being able to replenish their store for future sales.

I'm assuming this is a classic case of too good to be true, but what exactly am I looking at then? Are these newly produced fakes? High quality restoration jobs? The link below is for an item that claims to be from the 80's:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-stock-...ssian-USSR-with-mechanical-alarm/293244168347

A lot of people have recommended "buying the seller," so I'm looking for good sellers on ebay and this person caught my eye. I'd be glad to accept advise on other website to find vintage pieces online besides ebay though.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Snowlux said:


> This might seem obvious to some of the veterans out there, but I came across a seller on ebay who is selling a number of items as "old stock" which basically look new. They aren't advertised as "NOS," but that is certainly the implication. The thing is, it's hard for me to imagine one seller having so many NOS items for sale at a time and being able to replenish their store for future sales.
> 
> I'm assuming this is a classic case of too good to be true, but what exactly am I looking at then? Are these newly produced fakes? High quality restoration jobs? The link below is for an item that claims to be from the 80's:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/OLD-stock-...ssian-USSR-with-mechanical-alarm/293244168347
> 
> A lot of people have recommended "buying the seller," so I'm looking for good sellers on ebay and this person caught my eye. I'd be glad to accept advise on other website to find vintage pieces online besides ebay though.


There are a lot of watches I can't comment on, but there are for sure a few fake (new dial) Poljots in between. I think your remark "too good to be true" is spot on. Hold on to your money and verify with the forum first ...... I have so my serious doubts about a lot on offer ...... :think:


----------



## OhDark30

I wouldn’t touch it, or the seller with a bargepole
He has fantasy WW2 Luftwaffe watches listed, and several desirable models (Gagarin Shturmanskie, the one you show) in apparently pristine condition

Now that the classic days of Soviet watchmaking are getting further into the past, it is a personal decision how original you like your watches

I’ve bought some with replacement crowns and hands, and a Sportivnie with Shturmanskie dial as the originals I could afford all looked a bit dog-eared
But I did so knowingly

Be wary, particularly with light dialled watches in desirable models (think of all the sunlight, tobacco smoke, pollution and dirt they will have met over the decades - does the watch reflect that?)

Happy hunting!


----------



## 5-hats

Snowlux said:


> what exactly am I looking at then?


The best bit in your ebay link is picture one that says "YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE WHAT YOU SEE IN THIS VERY PICTURE!"


----------



## 5-hats

Snowlux said:


> what exactly am I looking at then?


The best bit in your ebay link is the picture that says "YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE WHAT YOU SEE IN THIS VERY PICTURE!"


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades I have a purchase In need of authentication form our panel of experts. The iconic tank watch in silver. I have two gold ones and have been looking for the silver one.
Picked this one up very cheaply :-!, as always my friends thank you in advance for your time and opinions, jimzilla.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades I have a purchase In need of authentication form our panel of experts. The iconic tank watch in silver. I have two gold ones and have been looking for the silver one.
> Picked this one up very cheaply :-!, as always my friends thank you in advance for your time and opinions, jimzilla.


Looks to be a perfect example of a 341306 with correct passport from October 1992 :-!


----------



## jimzilla

As always Avidfan thank you very much, I have not talked to you lately, I hope you do well sir, best regards, james. |>|>|>


----------



## EndeavourDK

Stunning, seemingly undisturbed !

Be aware of the black paint on the dial, that may have gone "soft" and therefor it's easy to damage.

Here a picture of the 1991 catalogue so you can see with which bracelet it was issued in ≈ 1991;


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Roland for adding to the history of this watch. I have not heard from you in quite some time as well, I hope you do well sir. best of luck.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> I have not heard from you in quite some time as well, I hope you do well sir. best of luck.


I'm there Jim, more in the "special projects department"  Doing well ..... thank you :-!

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-3133-commemorating-mir-space-station-5055311.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/poljot-3133-chrono-hand-repair-5070169.html


----------



## EndeavourDK

I bought this non-running sub $100 Sekonda 3133 chronograph for parts/repair and interestingly it seems to have a fake chrono-bridge :think:

The mainplate has the Poljot stamp and the brass-color balance wheel & cap-stone spring would suggest that the movement was made pre-1993.
It seems to me that this "Sekonda" was an export model (Italian / German market?) and if that's the case, the stamp "23 jewels" (in Latin) would make sense.
However, the movement (also as the USSR dial suggest) could have been produced in the Soviet era and therefor "SU 3133" would be appropriate.

According to the website Polmax3133 both stamps "SU3133" and "23 jewels" (in Latin) never happened.

Judging the general condition of the movement and the screw-heads, the movement appears to be pretty undisturbed. If for some reason the more funny looking "SU 3133" stamp was added with the reason to fake, why on a (even then) less sought-after, more-or-less around every corner available, "Sekonda" ?? :think:


----------



## OhDark30

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*









Sekonda are a British company, founded in 1966
They originally sold USSR watches, and since 1993 have used Hong Kong movements

The watch you show is a legit 90s model (I nearly got one myself as I like the clean design)
The parts may be 'mis-matched' as old stock was used up at 1MWF

Sekondas from my collection:









Vintage Sekonda is a great way to collect affordable sock drawer Raketa and Poljot on UK ebay - just search eg 'white Sekonda'


----------



## EndeavourDK

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



OhDark30 said:


> Sekonda are a British company, founded in 1966
> They originally sold USSR watches, and since 1993 have used Hong Kong movements
> 
> The watch you show is a legit 90s model (I nearly got one myself as I like the clean design)
> The parts may be 'mis-matched' as old stock was used up at 1MWF


Thank you for your answer and additional information, however my question stays; How come there is SU 3133 and 23-jewels (in Latin) on the chrono bridge? According to the Polmax3133 website this has originally/officially never happened and therefore the bridge must have been faked to give the impression that the movement/watch was made during the Soviet times.
In this case the reason for the alleged faking does not make any sense to me ?

Or .....

has it "happened" (perhaps outside Poljots control, but still "officially" by Sekonda?); the "SU 3133" stamp together with the Latin "23 jewels" stamp ??? :think:


----------



## OhDark30

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

My take:
The dial and bridge say USSR
The model is legit (I've seen them around)

There were several early 90s 3133s with wide bezels, often with engraved writing eg 'chronograph'

There are the famous titanium SS-18 and SS-20








Polmax pic

and these, commemorative Columbus and Sweden models, both 1992








Poljot24 pic









So, for me, the Soviet indications on the watch seem correct, ie from the factory (particularly, see the Swedish watch)


----------



## EndeavourDK

OhDark30 said:


> My take:
> The dial and bridge say USSR
> The model is legit (I've seen them around)
> There were several early 90s 3133s with wide bezels, often with engraved writing eg 'chronograph'
> So, for me, the Soviet indications on the watch seem correct


Thanks again ;-)

I've no doubt "what-so-ever" over the legibility of the watch. 
All seems as it should be and that makes it so puzzling. The chrono-bridge, according to the Polmax3133 website, is officially not allowed to exist. According to the Polmax3133 website this bridge is a fake ......

The main question here: is the bridge really a fake ?? :think:

Below the Polmax3133 Guide info;


----------



## OhDark30

Yes, it is puzzling 

Polmax is the man, so it looks like a fake bridge
But as you say, why would anyone do that: it’s not like everyone is dying for this model 3133
Hmm..


----------



## Kamburov

Damn! How do you fake a 3133 chrono bridge? Obviously it "happened", someone produced it, putting these two jewels in it, then the stamp. Who has the machinery to produce precision parts like that? Why faking chrono bridges, when there are many other more breakable parts, hence bigger market demand? Why not fake some second hand wheels, or a simpler parts like hammers?
I just don't get it.
Ivan


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Damn! How do you fake a 3133 chrono bridge? Obviously it "happened", someone produced it, putting these two jewels in it, then the stamp. Who has the machinery to produce precision parts like that? Why faking chrono bridges, when there are many other more breakable parts, hence bigger market demand? Why not fake some second hand wheels, or a simpler parts like hammers?
> I just don't get it.
> Ivan


I don't think that the chrono-bridge as such is fake. The combination of the stamps "SU 3133" together with the Latin "23 jewels" allegedly are ..... or aren't they? :think:


----------



## Kamburov

EndeavourDK said:


> I don't think that the chrono-bridge as such is fake. The combination of the stamps "SU 3133" together with the Latin "23 jewels" allegedly are ..... or aren't they? :think:


Did you see this old thread?
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/civilian-3133-red-mark-dial-question-about-movement-678927.html

Check polmax3133 posts.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Kamburov said:


> Did you see this old thread?
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/civilian-3133-red-mark-dial-question-about-movement-678927.html
> 
> Check polmax3133 posts.


No, I hadn't seen it. Excellent detective work :-!

Here we go again; never say never ! 

Interestingly the number on my chrono bridge is indeed close to the 30,000 and reading the article it could be one of those exemptions to the rule and may well be a "real" issue. Being a fake just didn't make any sense to me, not with this watch.

Now the next questions is; "how many of these exemptions to the Polmax-rule are there?" Does the "Rule" still stand ? It seems with Russian watches; nothing can be written in stone ....

For me it's one of those; the more I read & learn, the more I realize ....................

Thanks Ivan |>


----------



## leokoerner

Hey, looking at this Raketa 24 hour, does it look legit?


----------



## Odessa200

leokoerner said:


> Hey, looking at this Raketa 24 hour, does it look legit?
> 
> View attachment 14650819
> 
> View attachment 14650821
> 
> View attachment 14650823


Welcome to the forum. Looks good to me.


----------



## mariomart

I purchased this off eBay a few weeks ago as it was a reasonable price, and it was a dial design I wasn't familiar with.

The seller had 5 identical examples and claimed they were "New with tags" and also used the description of "(Customs warehouse 1992)".

He showed a passport in the listing, but it was for a different watch (Vostok Cadet) so it's not really relevant, and the watch also came with a box and tag.

Normally I would not purchase a watch that had lumed hands but not a lumed dial, however there was something about the dial that made me feel it was an authentic dial, but perhaps a factory reject that was never lumed, but as I had never come across this dial I decided the risk was worth the purchase.

The watch runs beautifully and is in very good condition with no signs of wear.

Any thoughts?


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> I purchased this off eBay a few weeks ago as it was a reasonable price, and it was a dial design I wasn't familiar with.
> 
> The seller had 5 identical examples and claimed they were "New with tags" and also used the description of "(Customs warehouse 1992)".
> 
> He showed a passport in the listing, but it was for a different watch (Vostok Cadet) so it's not really relevant, and the watch also came with a box and tag.
> 
> Normally I would not purchase a watch that had lumed hands but not a lumed dial, however there was something about the dial that made me feel it was an authentic dial, but perhaps a factory reject that was never lumed, but as I had never come across this dial I decided the risk was worth the purchase.
> 
> The watch runs beautifully and is in very good condition with no signs of wear.
> 
> Any thoughts?


I don't recall seeing this exact dial before and you're probably aware of a similar Soviet dial in the Levenburg book (#195) that is also for a 2409A and is additionally marked 'anti-magnetic' and also has the Vostok logo but has the word 'Komandirskie' in another position, this example also has no lume.

FWIW I would say your example is legit and probably from around 1992 :-!


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> I don't recall seeing this exact dial before and you're probably aware of a similar Soviet dial in the Levenburg book (#195) that is also for a 2409A and is additionally marked 'anti-magnetic' and also has the Vostok logo but has the word 'Komandirskie' in another position, this example also has no lume.
> 
> FWIW I would say your example is legit and probably from around 1992 :-!


Thank you, I can't believe I missed it in the book. It's not unusual to see small changes in these dials (perhaps they thought it looked a little crowded), but it is unusual to see lume lacking, however as the book was published in 1995 I'm more inclined to agree that it is a legit dial.


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> Thank you, I can't believe I missed it in the book. It's not unusual to see small changes in these dials (perhaps they thought it looked a little crowded), but it is unusual to see lume lacking, however as the book was published in 1995 I'm more inclined to agree that it is a legit dial.


I've seen quite a few NOS Vostoks from 1992-93 with no lume for some reason :think: and your submarine dial seems to have gone through the same small changes as the better known submarine dials such as the 685...


----------



## jimzilla

.


----------



## jimzilla

I am in need of authentication, thank you in advance comrades.


----------



## jimzilla

I have some more info on this watch.



http://imgur.com/AVjI1fa


He says it is N.O.S. with box and papers, looks too good to be true.


----------



## dutchassasin

jimzilla said:


> He says it is N.O.S. with box and papers, looks too good to be true.


What number does the paper say? , if im not mistaken this model is usually designated 6401260.

But ive seen a few models like this with 0411260 on the paper, which i think is for the non rotating bezel ss one.
in the combined 96-97 catalogue the model is shown with 411 designation, but further in the catalogue this specific case has the 640 markings.

2000 and 2002 catalogues both mention this model with 640. Perhaps they made an oopsie in the 96 catalogue or pre 2000 this model was truly 411. But i don't know.

Keep in mind that this is the less desirable non military model.


----------



## jimzilla

0411260
Does it look legit? :-x


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> He says it is N.O.S. with box and papers, looks too good to be true.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that this is the less desirable non military model.
Click to expand...

Agree. Chrome on these models is not that good. After some use we see this condition.


----------



## Straight_time

From the 1994 catalog (same year of the passport)









This doesn't necessarily mean that the watch is a franken, but for sure the passport doesn't belong to the example shown.


----------



## jimzilla

So it has a chrome case and is authentic?
I have not owned one of these before, any tips on operation/break in, care and feeding?


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> So it has a chrome case and is authentic?
> I have not owned one of these before, any tips on operation/break in, care and feeding?


It looks good to me. I have two of them.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## jimzilla

I have not owned one of these before, any tips on operation/break in, care and feeding?
the paperwork is incorrect maybe I will get lucky and may have a 31659 movement.
Won't know till the back comes off.


----------



## dutchassasin

jimzilla said:


> So it has a chrome case and is authentic?
> I have not owned one of these before, any tips on operation/break in, care and feeding?


Personally would skip on this one and save up for the Stainless 31659 military version. But if its priced fairly its a nice watch and has the same looks.

There is no way for sure to know the paper belong, notice how the seller hid that part under the plastic.

for curiosity sake the 96 catalogue with what i presume a designation mistake:









And how it should be for civilian examples:


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> I have not owned one of these before, any tips on operation/break in, care and feeding?


It is durable watch. If it is in good condition, nothing to wory. My advice is to get him to watcmaker, to cehck it, clean it, oil it, and than you have good and reliable friend for next couple of years. 3133 is excellent movement if you buy one which is in good condition. Believe me, I have lot of them.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## jimzilla

I think I will buy it it looks absolutely mint, I wouldn't know where to send it for servicing?
Mine looks to be the 3133 640 1260


----------



## columela

Hello comrades

I look for your advice on this vintage Vostok amphibia whcih I like a lot























Seems legit to me and similar to one of the ones in this 1983 Vostok catalog. But I am not familiar with vintage Amphibia watches so your help is very much appreciated.

Thank you


----------



## Avidfan

columela said:


> Hello comrades
> 
> I look for your advice on this vintage Vostok amphibia whcih I like a lot
> 
> Seems legit to me and similar to one of the ones in this 1983 Vostok catalog. But I am not familiar with vintage Amphibia watches so your help is very much appreciated.
> 
> Thank you


Looks to be a nice example :-! the hands, movement and case back are correct, the crown is the type found on later production but is IMHO also correct, I can't tell from the photos if the crystal is original but it doesn't matter too much as originals with the correct curvature are not generally available anyway...

But here's a 1980('s) catalogue image:


----------



## jimzilla

Can someone tell me if the case back on this watch is chrome over brass or is it stainless steel, thanks.


----------



## schnurrp

jimzilla said:


> Can someone tell me if the case back on this watch is chrome over brass or is it stainless steel, thanks.


It sure looks like chrome going by the color but very few soviet watches were ever made with anything but stainless steel backs due to adverse skin reaction and the destructive action of salty sweat on chrome plating on brass. Is the rest of the watch stainless? If so then the colors are matching and the back is stainless.


----------



## jimzilla

I don't know, I have not received the watch yet.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I don't know, I have not received the watch yet.


My bet is on Chrome


----------



## jimzilla

it is said the chrome on these watches is very thin, I hope I can get the scratches out of the case back, as I said I an unfamiliar with these watches.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> it is said the chrome on these watches is very thin, I hope I can get the scratches out of the case back, as I said I an unfamiliar with these watches.


You can hand polish small scratches. I would NOT use any tool as the risk to get a 'bold' spot would be to big imho.


----------



## jimzilla

I heard that odessa200. I will try some mothers chrome polish or some simichrome by hand and see. Let me ask you odessa200 is there any particular cautions with these watches?
as I said I am not familiar with these watches.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I heard that odessa200. I will try some mothers chrome polish or some simichrome by hand and see. Let me ask you odessa200 is there any particular cautions with these watches?
> as I said I am not familiar with these watches.


I would not say these watches have something that other watches done in the 90s have. This was the turbulent time In the Soviet/Russian history. Quality was not that good. Factories fighting for survival and as we know now many had lost this battle. Hence the thin chrome and less predictable than before movements. Having said that, the watch looks good. Obviously it is not a military steel case so do mot overdo the polishing. Movement is same old design so should be Ok.


----------



## columela

Avidfan said:


> Looks to be a nice example :-! the hands, movement and case back are correct, the crown is the type found on later production but is IMHO also correct, I can't tell from the photos if the crystal is original but it doesn't matter too much as originals with the correct curvature are not generally available anyway...
> 
> But here's a 1980('s) catalogue image:
> 
> View attachment 14669449


Many thanks comrade, I will probably go for it.

Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk


----------



## jeżuś

Dear USSR watch experts - it's a pleasure to join your forums. I've got this Kirovskie from a collector today and it is my favourite watch right now. Do you think it is legitimate? Also it's super tiny - will wear it anyway. Is this one from 1960'?


----------



## Victorv

columela said:


> Hello comrades
> 
> I look for your advice on this vintage Vostok amphibia whcih I like a lot
> View attachment 14668885
> 
> View attachment 14668893
> 
> 
> View attachment 14668889
> 
> 
> Seems legit to me and similar to one of the ones in this 1983 Vostok catalog. But I am not familiar with vintage Amphibia watches so your help is very much appreciated.
> 
> Thank you


Looks so good to me. Nice example

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

Welcome to the forum, jezus!
Looks like a cadet Kirovskie. Would help to see the movement, but it looks legit on the outside (crown, crystal, hands, case back etc.). Golden hands in a chromed case were a normal thing at the time. I don't think these cadet models are well catalogued, so it may be hard to prove it 100%, but it's consistent with what I had/have/seen.
Actually I happen to have the gold-plated version of this model.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Welcome to the forum, jezus!
> Looks like a cadet Kirovskie. Would help to see the movement, but it looks legit on the outside (crown, crystal, hands, case back etc.). Golden hands in a chromed case were a normal thing at the time. I don't think these cadet models are well catalogued, so it may be hard to prove it 100%, but it's consistent with what I had/have/seen.
> Actually I happen to have the gold-plated version of this model.
> View attachment 14678027
> 
> View attachment 14678031
> 
> View attachment 14678033


Welcome Comrade Jezes! I am not that optimistic as Comrade Kamburov. Here is my version btw. Main issue I see is the case. If you look closely you will see that my case and Kamburov's cases are of one kind and your case is a bit different. As far as hands, agree, there could be gold hands in chrome body. The shape of hands as you can see varies. Possibly both are correct. Overall : quite a nice watch!


----------



## jeżuś

Thanks for the quick expertise! This is how it looks inside


----------



## Odessa200

jeżuś;50454501 said:


> Thanks for the quick expertise! This is how it looks inside
> View attachment 14678967
> 
> View attachment 14678969


I think the balance is replaced (has the shock proof). These Cadet Kirovskie, as far as I understand were made when 1MCHZ went via rebranding and switched from old style rhombus logo to the new style pentagon. It also started producing watches branded Poljot. Mine copy shown above has the pentagon logo and no shockproof balance. Kamburov's Kirovskie has rhombus logo and Poljot has pentagon. 
Lets see what people say.


----------



## AaParker

Hello--

I'm interested in this Luch, and I would, as I always do, value your opinions. Thank you!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello--
> 
> I'm interested in this Luch, and I would, as I always do, value your opinions. Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 14681841
> 
> 
> View attachment 14681843
> 
> 
> View attachment 14681845


Old dial and new case/movement. Not an authentic setup but authentic parts 🙂


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Old dial and new case/movement. Not an authentic setup but authentic parts &#55357;&#56898;


Thank you very much! I really appreciate it.


----------



## stevarad

I can not find this one in any catalogue.

What do you think about this one? Legit or not?









Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## EndeavourDK

@ stevarad; sadly I can't give you any help on whether legit or not. Gut feeling; something is up with the condition of the case (pretty worn and "strange" finish) and the dial certainly doesn't reflect the age of the case. The dial looks "as new" :think:
I would say it all depends on the price and whether the paid price justifies all the salvageable parts in case the watch turns out to be a total Franken / lime .....

Than I've also a question for the experts;

I bought this post-Soviet defective Pojot 3133 (& missing back-cover) which seems at first glance a mixed bag of parts, but is it? :think:
I also don't know if the dial / housing is a legit combination; it could be, but I'm not sure? 
Than some of the movement parts are of clearly different colors suggesting that the movement is an assembly of different movements parts, but than again some parts (like some screw-heads) do have "in-between" colors, suggesting that plausible some sort of discoloring is (has been) taking place ?? :think:
What do the experts think ?
Hope to hear ........ ;-)


----------



## stevarad

EndeavourDK said:


> @ stevarad; sadly I can't give you any help on whether legit or not. Gut feeling; something is up with the condition of the case (pretty worn and "strange" finish) and the dial certainly doesn't reflect the age of the case. The dial looks "as new" :think:
> I would say it all depends on the price and whether the paid price justifies all the salvageable parts in case the watch turns out to be a total Franken / lime .....
> 
> Than I've also a question for the experts;
> 
> I bought this defective 3133 (& missing back-cover) which seems at first glance a mixed bag of parts, but is it? :think:
> I also don't know if the dial / housing is a legit combination; it could be, but I'm not sure?
> Than some of the movement parts are of clearly different colors suggesting that the movement is an assembly of different movements parts, but than again some parts (like some screw-heads) do have "in-between" colors, suggesting that plausible some sort of discoloring is (has been) taking place ?? :think:
> What do the experts think ?
> Hope to hear ........ ;-)


Hey, I wanted to buy that one!!!!! It was good price....

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## EndeavourDK

stevarad said:


> Hey, I wanted to buy that one!!!!! It was good price....
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


I didn't pay the full asking price either. I did put in an offer for $80 which was accepted, suspiciously fast I like to add !
Regardless, the price paid seems for me worth the parts ...... if something more comes out of it, that will be a bonus ;-)


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

I was really interested in the discussion related to the cadet Kirovskie. Does the forum think the watch below is a cadet Kirovskie? Pretty sure the crown is not correct, but uncertain about the rest of it as well. As always, I value your opinions; I appreciate you taking the time to review and comment.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> I was really interested in the discussion related to the cadet Kirovskie. Does the forum think the watch below is a cadet Kirovskie? Pretty sure the crown is not correct, but uncertain about the rest of it as well. As always, I value your opinions; I appreciate you taking the time to review and comment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14693461
> 
> 
> View attachment 14693463
> 
> 
> View attachment 14693465
> 
> 
> View attachment 14693467


I would say 'yes'. In my view this is from the time when 1mchz went via rebranding and became Poljot (new logo on the movement). Aside from the crown the rest is Ok but I do not think we have any catalogs to compare. Lets see what other people say.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I would say 'yes'. In my view this is from the time when 1mchz went via rebranding and became Poljot (new logo on the movement). Aside from the dial the rest is Ok but I do not think we have any catalogs to compare. Lets see what other people say.


As always, I really appreciate your review and opinion! Thank you very much!


----------



## Odessa200

I made a mistake: i meant to say ‘aside from the crown the rest is Ok’. No issues with the dial.


----------



## jeżuś

Hey AaParker, nice Kirovskie. Yours has a dial in a way better condition. Also from what I observe - mine might have a replaced shockproof balance. Is it from late 50'?


----------



## jeżuś

I've also got this Kirovskie Poljot - 17 jewels. This one is from an old watchmakers shop. I replaced the glass in this one. Does it look relevant? Marked "Au20u" on the back.
Do you think it's from the 60'?


----------



## jeżuś

I have also replaced the crown in this Poljot, as the previous was definitely too big. You can see it in the last open case photo.


----------



## Odessa200

jeżuś;50501373 said:


> I've also got this Kirovskie Poljot - 17 jewels. This one is from an old watchmakers shop. I replaced the glass in this one. Does it look relevant? Marked "Au20u" on the back.
> Do you think it's from the 60'?
> 
> View attachment 14694627
> 
> 
> View attachment 14694629
> 
> 
> View attachment 14694629
> 
> 
> View attachment 14694637





jeżuś;50501417 said:


> I have also replaced the crown in this Poljot, as the previous was definitely too big. You can see it in the last open case photo.


Jezus, what you got is a nice watch. It is NOT Kirovskie but Poljot. We better stick to what the dial says otherwise we can call 50% of Soviet watches 'kirovskie'. The 1mchz made a lot of different models. By 'Kirovskie' we mean the brand of the watch. Not that it was made on the 1mchz.

The dial has 17j but the movement has 16? Non shockproof. I suspect it is one of the earlier Poljots like this. Caliber 2408. I could not find a dark dial model but if it is 17j as you mentioned, dial may have been replaced. The watch is from the late 60s.


----------



## AaParker

jeżuś;50501325 said:


> Hey AaParker, nice Kirovskie. Yours has a dial in a way better condition. Also from what I observe - mine might have a replaced shockproof balance. Is it from late 50'?


Hi jeżuś,

I think mine is from the late 50s early 60s. There are a lot of experts on this forum, but I am not among their number. I'm still learning a lot. Fortunately we have a fantastic group of forum members who are extremely generous with their time, experience and expertise; I'm grateful for this wonderful group of excellent watch enthusiast who are also excellent people. I think you have a very nice cadet, and I'm glad you asked the question because that's how we learn and that sparked me to ask my question about the Kirovskie I wasn't quite certain about! I also think your Poljot looks quite sharp! Good job replacing the crown and crystal. I'm sure others will chime in about your questions.


----------



## jeżuś

Odessa200 said:


> The dial has 17j but the movement has 16?


Uh-oh, I messed up! The movement has 16 and *the dial in fact also has 16 jewels* - I was writing from memory and one of the hands covered the "6" digit on the photo, so it was easier for me to make this mistake


----------



## Odessa200

jeżuś;50522577 said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dial has 17j but the movement has 16?
> 
> 
> 
> Uh-oh, I messed up! The movement has 16 and *the dial in fact also has 16 jewels* - I was writing from memory and one of the hands covered the "6" digit on the photo, so it was easier for me to make this mistake
Click to expand...

Even better for you! Looks like you got a nice cadet Poljot! Enjoy it!


----------



## Leo13

Famous Druzhba watch .... - fake or not?

​


----------



## Odessa200

Leo13 said:


> Famous Druzhba watch .... - fake or not?
> 
> ​


Looks Good. Seconds hand is wrong. Lume is redone on hands. The rest seems to be right. At least what you have shown us (just the face of the watch).


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think about this two watches? I think all parts are original, but i'm in doubt with the hands and crown of both watches. But if you see something incorrect i'll be very glad to hear your opinions.

The Pobeda, what movement should it have? I don't have photo of the movement

Bests!!


----------



## Victorv

It seems that the Pobeda images don't work. I try again


----------



## Kamburov

Hi, Victorv!
A bit confusing, this stuff you posted 

I guess this might be the Luch, on the left








the model number code suggests its gold-plated. So actually the crown might be original, and the case not. Can't say about the second hand. 
Don't know if there's a chromed version with this exact combination. A comrade may find something else.

Similar story with the Pobeda. The catalogue puts this dial in a different case.








as to the movement - the standard 15J ZiM 2602.
https://17jewels.info/movements/z/zim/zim-2602/

Both watches could be transferrs to a second case. Reason for the Luch - gold content extraction, reason for the Pobeda - original case goes together with a bracelet, bracelet goes kaput, case is useless, new case has normal 18mm lugs.
Or I may be prooved wrong by a fellow member.
Ivan

PS; The Luch chromed version is on the same page, but has a different hands set.


----------



## Victorv

Kamburov said:


> Hi, Victorv!
> A bit confusing, this stuff you posted
> 
> I guess this might be the Luch, on the left
> View attachment 14708989
> 
> 
> the model number code suggests its gold-plated. So actually the crown might be original, and the case not. Can't say about the second hand.
> Don't know if there's a chromed version with this exact combination. A comrade may find something else.
> 
> Similar story with the Pobeda. The catalogue puts this dial in a different case.
> View attachment 14708993
> 
> 
> as to the movement - the standard 15J ZiM 2602.
> https://17jewels.info/movements/z/zim/zim-2602/
> 
> Both watches could be transferrs to a second case. Reason for the Luch - gold content extraction, reason for the Pobeda - original case goes together with a bracelet, bracelet goes kaput, case is useless, new case has normal 18mm lugs.
> Or I may be prooved wrong by a fellow member.
> Ivan
> 
> PS; The Luch chromed version is on the same page, but has a different hands set.


Many many thanks dear Kamburov, i'm really happy with your information 

Can i ask where do you find this catalogs? I was doing a research yesterday, and couldn't find it. Nevertheless i found a similar Luch on Dashiell page, but i was thinking that the watch i post have a wrong second hand and wrong crown. Your catalog photo confirm that his second hand are correct and the one for the watch i posted are wrong.

About the Pobeda, yesterday i found a similar one on the net, but not in any catalog, thats why i ask here.

Many many thanks for your time and your help 

If someone more can say his opinion about this two watches, i will be very glad


----------



## schnurrp

I used to own this commemorative example that I thought was completely authentic. Has a later movement.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> I used to own this commemorative example that I thought was completely authentic. Has a later movement.
> 
> View attachment 14710835


Many many thanks schnurrp, really apreciated info. Yours have the same second hand than in Dashiell example, so finally i think that the second hand on the watch i post i wrong.

What do you think about the Pobeda?


----------



## schnurrp

Victorv said:


> Many many thanks schnurrp, really apreciated info. Yours have the same second hand than in Dashiell example, so finally i think that the second hand on the watch i post i wrong.
> 
> What do you think about the Pobeda?


Glad to help on the Luch. Zim/Pobedas of that time were produced in many dial designs and since very little in the way of catalog information is available they can be hard to verify so I never got too interested in collecting them. I don't see any reason to believe it's not authentic.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Victorv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks schnurrp, really apreciated info. Yours have the same second hand than in Dashiell example, so finally i think that the second hand on the watch i post i wrong.
> 
> What do you think about the Pobeda?
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to help on the Luch. Zim/Pobedas of that time were produced in many dial designs and since very little in the way of catalog information is available they can be hard to verify so I never got too interested in collecting them. I don't see any reason to believe it's not authentic.
Click to expand...

Second that. Pobeda is authentic. I had a few like this. Back cover is right too with the number on the edge. Just do not pay that much. This Pobeda, in this condition, does not worth much.


----------



## Victorv

schnurrp said:


> Glad to help on the Luch. Zim/Pobedas of that time were produced in many dial designs and since very little in the way of catalog information is available they can be hard to verify so I never got too interested in collecting them. I don't see any reason to believe it's not authentic.





Odessa200 said:


> Second that. Pobeda is authentic. I had a few like this. Back cover is right too with the number on the edge. Just do not pay that much. This Pobeda, in this condition, does not worth much.


Many many thanks buddies i'm really happy with your answers

What do you think is a good price for the Pobeda Odessa?

Bests


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to help on the Luch. Zim/Pobedas of that time were produced in many dial designs and since very little in the way of catalog information is available they can be hard to verify so I never got too interested in collecting them. I don't see any reason to believe it's not authentic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Second that. Pobeda is authentic. I had a few like this. Back cover is right too with the number on the edge. Just do not pay that much. This Pobeda, in this condition, does not worth much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Many many thanks buddies i'm really happy with your answers
> 
> What do you think is a good price for the Pobeda Odessa?
> 
> Bests
Click to expand...

10$ top


----------



## Kamburov

Victorv said:


> Can i ask where do you find this catalogs? I was doing a research yesterday, and couldn't find it.


I most often visit Andrei's site, and it's catalogues section
???????? ????? ???? ? 1934 ???? | ussr-watch.com

These models are not that well catalogued, glad other comrades showed up with more info.

Ivan


----------



## Victorv

Kamburov said:


> I most often visit Andrei's site, and it's catalogues section
> ???????? ????? ???? ? 1934 ???? | ussr-watch.com
> 
> These models are not that well catalogued, glad other comrades showed up with more info.
> 
> Ivan


Many many thanks Iván


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> 10$ top


Thanks comrade


----------



## Balticum

Hello experts! Just bought in flea market this watch (in pictures). I haven't met a lot of Vostok ladies watches therefore tried to find it in some catalog but unsuccessfully. 
When I opened it I was surprised to see Zarja caliber 1801. Does anyone knows something about such a kind of Vostok/Zarja watch?


----------



## Balticum

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Odessa200

Balticum said:


> Hello experts! Just bought in flea market this watch (in pictures). I haven't met a lot of Vostok ladies watches therefore tried to find it in some catalog but unsuccessfully.
> When I opened it I was surprised to see Zarja caliber 1801. Does anyone knows something about such a kind of Vostok/Zarja watch?
> View attachment 14720681
> 
> View attachment 14720683
> 
> View attachment 14720685


🙂. Nicely done but obviously this is franken. The dial is from a Vostok (from a much bigger watch) and the rest is Zaria. Notice that you cannot see the complete dial, numbers are to close to the edge and you cannot see the minute marks.


----------



## Eric M

This is being offered locally. I'm assuming it's a later tourist model. Is that correct?









Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## schnurrp

Eric M said:


> This is being offered locally. I'm assuming it's a later tourist model. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


I'm not real familiar with these at all but I think the movement present would be a key identifier. Does it say what movement it has? The old Zlatoust models had a pocket watch movement.

Also I suppose I don't know for sure what you mean by "late tourist model". Zlatoust makes a modern version but I believe it uses a modern Vostok 2409 movement.

There are a bunch of knock-offs but they're pretty obvious. That one looks correct going by the one single picture with wear consistent with an older model.

Diving Watch « Agat Factory


----------



## Odessa200

Eric M said:


> This is being offered locally. I'm assuming it's a later tourist model. Is that correct?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


Adding more that 1 photo always helps. To me the dial /hands look right but re-lumed. Case looks like a the new tourist version but I am mot sure. Movement: only God will know 🙂

Btw, every time we say ZlatousT we mean the real think. The tourist version is Zlatous. Sneaky, right? Not a new approach obviously to alter the brand to avoid legal consequences but this is an outrages practice that should be shamed! But I do have the tourist cope 🙂. Conflicted person...


----------



## Eric M

Odessa200 said:


> Adding more that 1 photo always helps. To me the dial /hands look right but re-lumed. Case looks like a the new tourist version but I am mot sure. Movement: only God will know 🙂
> 
> Btw, every time we say ZlatousT we mean the real think. The tourist version is Zlatous. Sneaky, right? Not a new approach obviously to alter the brand to avoid legal consequences but this is an outrages practice that should be shamed! But I do have the tourist cope 🙂. Conflicted person...


Unfortunately, the local auction company only posted this photo. Nothing of the internals. We'll see where it closes. Sigh.

Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Eric M said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Adding more that 1 photo always helps. To me the dial /hands look right but re-lumed. Case looks like a the new tourist version but I am mot sure. Movement: only God will know 🙂
> 
> Btw, every time we say ZlatousT we mean the real think. The tourist version is Zlatous. Sneaky, right? Not a new approach obviously to alter the brand to avoid legal consequences but this is an outrages practice that should be shamed! But I do have the tourist cope 🙂. Conflicted person...
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the local auction company only posted this photo. Nothing of the internals. We'll see where it closes. Sigh.
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

It may be all real. Compare photos and if the price is right: decide. There is always a risk. You rarely find pictures of the movement for this watch. Cause not many people can open it and it is quite dangerously to open it (health wise). Posting just one side of the watch is disrespectful a bit. What if the back is all rusted or damaged. Unless the back is a give away of the fake....


----------



## Odessa200

Team, what do you say about this Ministry? 🙏


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Team, what do you say about this Ministry? 🙏


I like to see these with a chromed lumed second hand, I'm not too sure if a red one is correct :think:

The bezel is a modern reproduction, the '45' in particular is of the wrong font...IMHO of course


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Team, what do you say about this Ministry? 🙏
> 
> 
> 
> I like to see these with a chromed lumed second hand, I'm not too sure if a red one is correct
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bezel is a modern reproduction, the '45' in particular is of the wrong font...IMHO of course
Click to expand...

Thanks!!!!!


----------



## jimzilla

**** MERRY CHRISTMAS COMRADES ****
I got a Buran For Christmas from my wonderful girlfriend, no box no papers. As far as I know the crown winds when the watch when fully pressed in and sets the time when pulled out.
It has a day feature but I am unsure as how to set it? As far as I know the crown only has two positions...... anyone familiar with thees watches and give some specs as well?
As always thank you for your time and opinions, Happy Holiday Season to one and all, James.


----------



## Kamburov

Pages 19-20 in this manual (cal. 26669 day/date setting). I honestly don't understand it, hope another member may be able to explain it. I just read it's a pain in the lower back setting this one.

https://www.russian-watches.info/manual/Poljot-26mm-ENG.pdf


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> **** MERRY CHRISTMAS COMRADES ****
> I got a Buran For Christmas from my wonderful girlfriend, no box no papers. As far as I know the crown winds when the watch when fully pressed in and sets the time when pulled out.
> It has a day feature but I am unsure as how to set it? As far as I know the crown only has two positions...... anyone familiar with thees watches and give some specs as well?
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, Happy Holiday Season to one and all, James.


No smart solutions. Just wind it.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Odessa200

Spotted a Vympel on sale and noticed this exposed stem (when crystal and the crystal ring is removed). Do not want to open up my slim watches but I do not recall the case to have an opening like that. Here is my Poljot case. It has the stem tube. I think all Slims have same: tube. What do you make of this Vympel? Broken case? Replaced from another watch?


----------



## jimzilla

stevarad said:


> No smart solutions. Just wind it.
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


It would be nice to know how to set this thing


----------



## jimzilla

.


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> It would be nice to know how to set this thing


Bussy day. I will post later.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Odessa200

What do you guys think of this one? The case is from Kolos. Right? Did they make Vostoks in this case as well? The dial is too good to be authentic but on the other hand too complex and not for a super rare model to be faked. What do you say? Thanks


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> What do you guys think of this one? The case is from Kolos. Right? Did they make Vostoks in this case as well? The dial is too good to be authentic but on the other hand too complex and not for a super rare model to be faked. What do you say? Thanks


The dial and case are certainly consistent with the Vostok example on Watches of the USSR:


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you guys think of this one? The case is from Kolos. Right? Did they make Vostoks in this case as well? The dial is too good to be authentic but on the other hand too complex and not for a super rare model to be faked. What do you say? Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> The dial and case are certainly consistent with the Vostok example on Watches of the USSR:
> 
> View attachment 14732551
Click to expand...

Thanks!


----------



## stevarad

jimzilla said:


> **** MERRY CHRISTMAS COMRADES ****
> I got a Buran For Christmas from my wonderful girlfriend, no box no papers. As far as I know the crown winds when the watch when fully pressed in and sets the time when pulled out.
> It has a day feature but I am unsure as how to set it? As far as I know the crown only has two positions...... anyone familiar with thees watches and give some specs as well?
> As always thank you for your time and opinions, Happy Holiday Season to one and all, James.


Well, your girlfriend is really awsome when she bought you such beautiful present. If she became wife, it would be really something to keep that attitude ))) You know...wife and watches...

As for the setting watch...left subdial is just 24h complication, little hand is not independent, and it follows movement of 12 h watch.

As for right subdial - two solutions.

1. Put crown in setting position, and just wind. After two circles, day will change
or
2. Move it between 3 and 11 for semi quick day change on right subdial. When day changes on 12, go to 3, and then back to 11, and then again on 3, etc.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## lxjenkins

Would appreciate any thoughts on the following watches (e.g., legit/franken - thoughts on quality/asking price - use as an everyday watch). Thank you!

*(1) Vostok 2214 (approximately price $70)*















*(2) Chistopol Amber - assuming this is authentic, would a watch this old survive regular use?*















*(3) Vostok 2214 (approximately $80)*


----------



## Odessa200

lxjenkins said:


> Would appreciate any thoughts on the following watches (e.g., legit/franken - thoughts on quality/asking price - use as an everyday watch). Thank you!
> 
> *(1) Vostok 2214 (approximately price $70)*
> View attachment 14733643
> 
> View attachment 14733647
> 
> 
> *(2) Chistopol Amber - assuming this is authentic, would a watch this old survive regular use?*
> View attachment 14733663
> 
> View attachment 14733665
> 
> 
> *(3) Vostok 2214 (approximately $80)*
> View attachment 14733677
> 
> View attachment 14733681


Welcome to the forum Comrade!
All 3 look quite good and authentic to me. Nice job selecting these. Vostoks are from 70s. Yantar has the date on the movement. Price wise: none are the bargain but also not outrageously overpriced. About right for an international market. Domestically one can get these cheeper but we have to shop, mostly, from outside of Russia. 
Can they hold daily use: yes, if they are serviced relatively recently and relatively well. Assuming you are not using jackhammer, etc. all have shock protection. They will have quite modest water resistance so no swimming/showers. Wind carefully cause old springs may snap.


----------



## lxjenkins

Thank you Odessa200. I hope you (and others) can weigh in on the following:

*Raketa 24-hour*


----------



## Odessa200

lxjenkins said:


> Thank you Odessa200. I hope you (and others) can weigh in on the following:
> 
> *Raketa 24-hour*
> View attachment 14740529
> 
> View attachment 14740531


I guess everyone is celebrating.... just me reading this forum 😞

This one also looks just fine to me. Back cover should have 6 digits number in the center.


----------



## lxjenkins

Odessa200 said:


> I guess everyone is celebrating.... just me reading this forum 😞
> 
> This one also looks just fine to me. Back cover should have 6 digits number in the center.


Thank you. What are your thoughts on the following?


----------



## stevarad

Odessa200 said:


> I guess everyone is celebrating.... just me reading this forum 😞
> 
> This one also looks just fine to me. Back cover should have 6 digits number in the center.


Hey, I am reading also...with pain in my head, but reading.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## Odessa200

lxjenkins said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess everyone is celebrating.... just me reading this forum 😞
> 
> This one also looks just fine to me. Back cover should have 6 digits number in the center.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. What are your thoughts on the following?
> 
> View attachment 14745989
> 
> View attachment 14745993
> 
> View attachment 14745995
Click to expand...

Franken IMHO. Case is for a different dial. Hands are from the the 3rd design.


----------



## lxjenkins

Thanks for all of your help. This should be the last grouping I need some help on.

(1) Raketa 2628.h















(2) Poljot 2609.h






















(3) Poljot 2616.2h






















(4) Vostok 2214


----------



## Odessa200

lxjenkins said:


> Thanks for all of your help. This should be the last grouping I need some help on.
> 
> (1) Raketa 2628.h
> View attachment 14750995
> 
> View attachment 14750997
> 
> 
> (2) Poljot 2609.h
> View attachment 14750999
> 
> View attachment 14751001
> 
> View attachment 14751003
> 
> 
> (3) Poljot 2616.2h
> View attachment 14751009
> 
> View attachment 14751013
> 
> View attachment 14751015
> 
> 
> (4) Vostok 2214
> View attachment 14751023
> 
> View attachment 14751029
> 
> View attachment 14751027


I think: 
1) wrong seconds hand
2) wrong balance and back cover

Maybe others will notice something else.


----------



## lxjenkins

Thanks Odessa200. Any thoughts on 3 and 4?


----------



## Kamburov

Agree with Odessa.
1. Wrong second hand
2. Replaced ballance, maybe wrong hands (differrent than catalogue). These hands are usually on stadiums, don't remember seeing them on volcanos.
3. Actually looks good. Although with a different second hand in catalogues, I believe this hands set is also legit.
4. I think this Vostok was originally in a gold-plated case. There are blue and green models in this chrome-plated cases, but this brown/gilded hands should be in a gold-plated one.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Agree with Odessa.
> 1. Wrong second hand
> 2. Replaced ballance, maybe wrong hands (differrent than catalogue). These hands are usually on stadiums, don't remember seeing them on volcanos.
> 3. Actually looks good. Although with a different second hand in catalogues, I believe this hands set is also legit.
> 4. I think this Vostok was originally in a gold-plated case. There are blue and green models in this chrome-plated cases, but this brown/gilded hands should be in a gold-plated one.


Agree. Question I had for the number 4: should the movement be with a slope around it or straight edge as shown? I think it should be a straight edge. Agree?


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Agree. Question I had for the number 4: should the movement be with a slope around it or straight edge as shown? I think it should be a straight edge. Agree?


Yes, straight should be period correct (mid to late 80s?). The two or three I owed were all straight.


----------



## raspberrycai

Ebay item number : 223828062644

Vostok 1945-1985 commemorative watch - Is it actually an original as the seller states?

The seller says it's totally original and in good condition and I've got him to take a photo of the movement, which he has uploaded to the listing. The problem is I have no clue what i'm looking for. Looking at the watch on Google shows quite a few examples with luminescent dials, which this one does not have.

What do you think?


----------



## mariomart

raspberrycai said:


> Ebay item number : 223828062644
> 
> Vostok 1945-1985 commemorative watch - Is it actually an original as the seller states?
> 
> The seller says it's totally original and in good condition and I've got him to take a photo of the movement, which he has uploaded to the listing. The problem is I have no clue what i'm looking for. Looking at the watch on Google shows quite a few examples with luminescent dials, which this one does not have.
> 
> What do you think?


Hopefully this will be helpful.

The watch on the left is the one you are enquiring about, the watch on the right comes from the collection of Dashiell, who is a reputable collector.

From a quick observation you can see that the hands do not match, the crown does not match, and the overall condition of the dial is less than perfect.


----------



## Avidfan

raspberrycai said:


> Ebay item number : 223828062644
> 
> Vostok 1945-1985 commemorative watch - Is it actually an original as the seller states?
> 
> The seller says it's totally original and in good condition and I've got him to take a photo of the movement, which he has uploaded to the listing. The problem is I have no clue what i'm looking for. Looking at the watch on Google shows quite a few examples with luminescent dials, which this one does not have.
> 
> What do you think?


Why have a lumed dial which the watch you show DOES have with non-lumed hands, it's not going to be of much use in the dark :think:

Calendar ring has also been changed at sometime with a post-Soviet one from the 90's...

I would keep looking for a better example


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> raspberrycai said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay item number : 223828062644
> 
> Vostok 1945-1985 commemorative watch - Is it actually an original as the seller states?
> 
> The seller says it's totally original and in good condition and I've got him to take a photo of the movement, which he has uploaded to the listing. The problem is I have no clue what i'm looking for. Looking at the watch on Google shows quite a few examples with luminescent dials, which this one does not have.
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Why have a lumed dial which the watch you show DOES have with non-lumed hands, it's not going to be of much use in the dark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Calendar ring has also been changed at sometime with a post-Soviet one from the 90's...
> 
> I would keep looking for a better example
Click to expand...

What do you mean 'no use in the dark'? What if I forget how the watch dial looks like? Round or square? Then the lume dots are quite useful in the dark! ?


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> What do you mean 'no use in the dark'? What if I forget how the watch dial looks like? Round or square? Then the lume dots are quite useful in the dark! ?


:-d :-d :-d


----------



## Kamburov

The strange thing is that all examples of watches with this particular dial (and the blue version) are with no-lume silver hands like OP's example. Not counting Dashiell's, that is. All frankenized in the exact same way? The same hands set? On mint condition collectors' examples? Lume hands on the roman numbers dial (this case) but not on these two.
Vostok broke the lume dial/lume hands rule on this one?


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> The strange thing is that all examples of watches with this particular dial (and the blue version) are with no-lume silver hands like OP's example. Not counting Dashiell's, that is. All frankenized in the exact same way? The same hands set? On mint condition collectors' examples? Lume hands on the roman numbers dial (this case) but not on these two.
> Vostok broke the lume dial/lume hands rule on this one?


Yes, I noticed the same 'wrong' hands without lume when I did a search too, perhaps it's not lume on the dial after all and the lume is actually decorative paint :think:

If this is the case then perhaps Vostok didn't break the lume dial/lume hands rule after all :think: but no lume hands with a lumed dial is just madness :-d


----------



## Avidfan

@ raspberrycai, comrade capannelle has all three versions of these watches on his site which might be of interest to you 

2414 | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## Kamburov

rules shmules


----------



## ichabod87

Hi first time poster, and new to Russian watches.

Is this legit or franken: ebay.com/itm/352908082717 ? TIA.


----------



## haha

ichabod87 said:


> Hi first time poster, and new to Russian watches.
> 
> Is this legit or franken: ebay.com/itm/352908082717 ? TIA.


Not totally sure about the second hand and the crystal. Case and dirty dial seem legit. 
But there's obviously something wrong with the crown... and the way the seller measures the size of the watch :rodekaart.
The price is low, but you might need to pay more in the end...


----------



## Odessa200

ichabod87 said:


> Hi first time poster, and new to Russian watches.
> 
> Is this legit or franken: ebay.com/itm/352908082717 ? TIA.





haha said:


> ichabod87 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi first time poster, and new to Russian watches.
> 
> Is this legit or franken: ebay.com/itm/352908082717 ? TIA.
> 
> 
> 
> Not totally sure about the second hand and the crystal. Case and dirty dial seem legit.
> But there's obviously something wrong with the crown... and the way the seller measures the size of the watch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> The price is low, but you might need to pay more in the end...
Click to expand...

Welcome to the Forum and the madness!!!!
To add, it looks like the balance is replaced. 
My recommendation is to pass on this watch. Not a rare model. I am sure you can find a good one with all the proper parts in place for maybe a bit more money.


----------



## ichabod87

Thanks haha and Odessa! Are you referring to the seller including the crown in the diameter measurement?

This one: ebay.com/itm/273774850715 appears to be the same model to me. I see the difference in the crown, but the seller doesn't have a photo of the back showing the movement. Is that a deal killer?


P.S. I'm sorry that I'm not able to share full links because of my post count.


----------



## Odessa200

ichabod87 said:


> Thanks haha and Odessa! Are you referring to the seller including the crown in the diameter measurement?
> 
> This one: ebay.com/itm/273774850715 appears to be the same model to me. I see the difference in the crown, but the seller doesn't have a photo of the back showing the movement. Is that a deal killer?
> 
> P.S. I'm sorry that I'm not able to share full links because of my post count.


This is better. The bezel is stripped of its black coating and the crystal is busted (see photo 2 around the edge). Looks like the seller added photos of the movement. Looks Ok to me.


----------



## ichabod87

Thanks! Missed that.

Did you mind taking a look at this one: ebay.com/itm/274077210081
The crystal looks to be in better shape, but it doesn't have photos from an angle.


----------



## Odessa200

ichabod87 said:


> Thanks! Missed that.
> 
> Did you mind taking a look at this one: ebay.com/itm/274077210081
> The crystal looks to be in better shape, but it doesn't have photos from an angle.


Not bad. I would only suspect a new Winding crown but it is a close match to the original.
If in doubt about crystal: just as the seller if the crystal has any cracks or just scratches. If just scratches then you can easily fix that with the Polywatch (or at least greatly improve).


----------



## raspberrycai

2 watches here:

ebay item number : 392486805844 Orange Pobeda

Ebay item number : 143482036287 - Vostok Oil watch ( This item has been sold but I think you can still access the photos, if not let me know and i'll upload them to imgur)

I'm not particularly bothered if the orange pobeda isn't fully original as it's quite cheap and so i'm not expecting too much - but how original is it? 

As for watch 2 , I bought the Vostok oil watch the other day, it was only cheap and I loved the dial, found it very interesting. But how original would you guess it is? I would assume the dial is original, but I can barely find any information about this watch online, which is a shame.


----------



## Odessa200

raspberrycai said:


> 2 watches here:
> 
> ebay item number : 392486805844 Orange Pobeda
> 
> Ebay item number : 143482036287 - Vostok Oil watch ( This item has been sold but I think you can still access the photos, if not let me know and i'll upload them to imgur)
> 
> I'm not particularly bothered if the orange pobeda isn't fully original as it's quite cheap and so i'm not expecting too much - but how original is it?
> 
> As for watch 2 , I bought the Vostok oil watch the other day, it was only cheap and I loved the dial, found it very interesting. But how original would you guess it is? I would assume the dial is original, but I can barely find any information about this watch online, which is a shame.


Pibeda: hard to say for me. Its a late Pobeda. Zim movement. I would imagine the dial is a modern reprint but I am not sure.

Vostok: wrong hands as far as I see. Movement is a Vostok from 80. Back cover is wrong.

I hope this helps.


----------



## Avidfan

raspberrycai said:


> 2 watches here:
> 
> Ebay item number : 143482036287 - Vostok Oil watch ( This item has been sold but I think you can still access the photos, if not let me know and i'll upload them to imgur)
> 
> As for watch 2 , I bought the Vostok oil watch the other day, it was only cheap and I loved the dial, found it very interesting. But how original would you guess it is? I would assume the dial is original, but I can barely find any information about this watch online, which is a shame.


A quick Google search turns up this example:









Maybe these are the correct hands :think:

Have a look at the Vostoks on comrade mroatman's site: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok he has what looks to me to be the regular version of this watch:







Hope this helps a little...


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> raspberrycai said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 watches here:
> 
> Ebay item number : 143482036287 - Vostok Oil watch ( This item has been sold but I think you can still access the photos, if not let me know and i'll upload them to imgur)
> 
> As for watch 2 , I bought the Vostok oil watch the other day, it was only cheap and I loved the dial, found it very interesting. But how original would you guess it is? I would assume the dial is original, but I can barely find any information about this watch online, which is a shame.
> 
> 
> 
> A quick Google search turns up this example:
> 
> View attachment 14758575
> 
> 
> Maybe these are the correct hands
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at the Vostoks on comrade mroatman's site: https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/vostok he has what looks to me to be the regular version of this watch:
> 
> View attachment 14758595
> Hope this helps a little...
Click to expand...

Of course it is! I have never seen this watch before but you see immediately that the skinny golden hands cannot be possibly a good match for a think hour indexes with the black stripe in the middle. Hence was my guess. 🙂


----------



## raspberrycai

Cheers guys, I did see that other example on google images, but had no other examples to compare that one to either. I'm fairly happy with my purchase, it's got an unusual dial, it was very cheap and looks pretty decent.


----------



## Odessa200

raspberrycai said:


> Cheers guys, I did see that other example on google images, but had no other examples to compare that one to either. I'm fairly happy with my purchase, it's got an unusual dial, it was very cheap and looks pretty decent.


That is all that matter!


----------



## Odessa200

Friends, what do you think of this Baltica dial? I think it is re-paint because:
1) it is wat to clean
2) 21 Камней text is too big
3) Minute marks are not aligned with the hour marks. Look at the dot above 6. 
4) ПЧЗ has Ч way to tall. 

What do you think? Have you ever seen legit black Balticas?

Thanks!


----------



## Straight_time

Avidfan said:


> Yes, I noticed the same 'wrong' hands without lume when I did a search too, perhaps it's not lume on the dial after all and the lume is actually decorative paint :think:
> 
> If this is the case then perhaps Vostok didn't break the lume dial/lume hands rule after all :think: but no lume hands with a lumed dial is just madness :-d


On those few selected models, unlumed hands are legit. We discussed (a little OT) about them here.

Looks like at the factory the choice of keeping the standard hands' style used on most -or probably all- of 061/063 case models, prevailed on the more logical concept of fitting hands matching the dial: because yes, dot indexes indeed have lume on them, not a decorative paint.


----------



## Avidfan

Straight_time said:


> On those few selected models, unlumed hands are legit. We discussed (a little OT) about them here.
> 
> Looks like at the factory the choice of keeping the standard hands' style used on most -or probably all- of 061/063 case models, prevailed on the more logical concept of fitting hands matching the dial: because yes, dot indexes indeed have lume on them, not a decorative paint.


Thanks for reminding me that these were covered on the Oficerskie thread comrade Straight_time :-! so metal hands it is and with a lumed dial :-s :-d


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Friends, what do you think of this Baltica dial? I think it is re-paint because:
> 1) it is wat to clean
> 2) 21 Камней text is too big
> 3) Minute marks are not aligned with the hour marks. Look at the dot above 6.
> 4) ПЧЗ has Ч way to tall.
> 
> What do you think? Have you ever seen legit black Balticas?
> 
> Thanks!


No, I haven't seen one yet. Font looks sloppy and uneven, paint too white. What is really suspicious - no "made in ..." at the bottom. 
I bet if one existed, it would be in a gold-plated case. I'm sceptical about this one.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Friends, what do you think of this Baltica dial? I think it is re-paint because:
> 1) it is wat to clean
> 2) 21 Камней text is too big
> 3) Minute marks are not aligned with the hour marks. Look at the dot above 6.
> 4) ПЧЗ has Ч way to tall.
> 
> What do you think? Have you ever seen legit black Balticas?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> No, I haven't seen one yet. Font looks sloppy and uneven, paint too white. What is really suspicious - no "made in ..." at the bottom.
> I bet if one existed, it would be in a gold-plated case. I'm sceptical about this one.
Click to expand...

Interesting thing is that looks like some have 21 Jewels on the dial and some not. Some have Made In and some do not. Here is one from Dash and one of mine. I believe both have a legit dial. I will check mine tonight is there is any trace of Made In on my dial.... But Dash's is missing 21 Jewels. Known variation?


----------



## Kamburov

I correct myself - catalogue example without "made in..." exists. Could be given the benefit of the doubt, of course, painting these small prints is not easy. 
Unicorn out of petrodvorec? I don't know. Plenty of proposal dials were made, some found their way into watches. Hope you find the answers!


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> I correct myself - catalogue example without "made in..." exists. Could be given the benefit of the doubt, of course, painting these small prints is not easy.
> Unicorn out of petrodvorec? I don't know. Plenty of proposal dials were made, some found their way into watches. Hope you find the answers!


Thanks. Could you point me to the catalogs with Baltica? Also I guess we agree that this black one is fake. Right?


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Thanks. Could you point me to the catalogs with Baltica? Also I guess we agree that this black one is fake. Right?


Check 1972 catalogs.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8avflz0l5uliizf/Каталог часов, 1972 - А.И. Токмаков.pdf

Well, the print looks sloppy to me. The originals are different level of print quality.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Could you point me to the catalogs with Baltica? Also I guess we agree that this black one is fake. Right?
> 
> 
> 
> Check 1972 catalogs.
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8avflz0l5uliizf/Каталог часов, 1972 - А.И. Токмаков.pdf
> 
> Well, the print looks sloppy to me. The originals are different level of print quality.
Click to expand...

Yes, correct. Many w/o Made In. But I thought you meant catalog showing a Baltica dial. I have not see one.

I will pass on that black Baltica. Thanks for the consultation!


----------



## haha

I'm a little late, but definitely a fake for me too.
Next Baltika will have a blue or red dial like some Atom you see on the bay o|


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, correct. Many w/o Made In. But I thought you meant catalog showing a Baltica dial. I have not see one.
> 
> I will pass on that black Baltica. Thanks for the consultation!


Sorry, my missunderstanding! Don't remember seeing a baltika branded one in catalogues. I too would pass on this one, though.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

I'm writting you because i need some help on 5 watches i'm eyeing

First one is a Vostok Amphibia, i think all is original, but i'm in doubt with the bezel, i found it in a catalog with a diferent bezel, but in Mroatman collection with the same. But maybe i'm missing something. Here it is







The second one is a komandirskie, i think all is ok, but i'm not sure







The third is another amphibia, the hands are moden ones i think







The fourth is a Luch, i think all is ok







And the last one is a Raketa, i think all is ok







If someone find some catalog images i would be very glad. I don't know why but i don't find nothing, i think i don't search well...

Many many thanks in advance


----------



## haha

1/ bezels used to come and go, i wouldn't bother too much about this detail.
3/ probably old hands with new lume
4/ i have doubts about the crown and maybe stem if the crown wasn't pulled for the pic.


----------



## Avidfan

@ Victorv, I'll comment on the three Vostok's...

1, Looks original but has some dial damage, these can have several bezels and yours is just one of these, but it should also have an anti-magnetic shield.

2, Possible replacement crown, has serial number on movement and also on case back (should only have one of course).

3. This has a Komandirskie bezel (no lume), has original hands but with some new lume, dial feet are broken and repaired (look at the metal pins @ 2 and 7 on the dial).

Hope this helps a little...


----------



## Straight_time

Both Amphibias are pictured on the 1990 Tento catalog: 2409A/470298 the blue/white and 2409A/320161 the black, which IMHO is also much less common than its Cyrillic counterpart.

The Komandirskie Chistopol is on several catalogs, for instance the 1983 Vostok, model 2234/1393044. Given the production years, the wrong numbered part is the caseback.

The Raketa is a franken at various levels.
Firstly, altough I have yet to find the catalog entry, in my book nickel-plated hands don't go with gilded indexes. 
But even if for some strange reason they were ok, then the movement has a bridge marked 2614 (date complication) in a watch which should be powered by a 2628 (day-date).

Can't comment on the Luch because I know too little about the brand.


----------



## schnurrp

The old Luch dial should be in the "UFO" case, not that newer one. Probably a replacement dial.


----------



## Victorv

haha said:


> 1/ bezels used to come and go, i wouldn't bother too much about this detail.
> 3/ probably old hands with new lume
> 4/ i have doubts about the crown and maybe stem if the crown wasn't pulled for the pic.





Avidfan said:


> @ Victorv, I'll comment on the three Vostok's...
> 
> 1, Looks original but has some dial damage, these can have several bezels and yours is just one of these, but it should also have an anti-magnetic shield.
> 
> 2, Possible replacement crown, has serial number on movement and also on case back (should only have one of course).
> 
> 3. This has a Komandirskie bezel (no lume), has original hands but with some new lume, dial feet are broken and repaired (look at the metal pins @ 2 and 7 on the dial).
> 
> Hope this helps a little...





Straight_time said:


> Both Amphibias are pictured on the 1990 Tento catalog: 2409A/470298 the blue/white and 2409A/320161 the black, which IMHO is also much less common than its Cyrillic counterpart.
> 
> The Komandirskie Chistopol is on several catalogs, for instance the 1983 Vostok, model 2234/1393044. Given the production years, the wrong numbered part is the caseback.
> 
> The Raketa is a franken at various levels.
> Firstly, altough I have yet to find the catalog entry, in my book nickel-plated hands don't go with gilded indexes.
> But even if for some strange reason they were ok, then the movement has a bridge marked 2614 (date complication) in a watch which should be powered by a 2628 (day-date).
> 
> Can't comment on the Luch because I know too little about the brand.





schnurrp said:


> The old Luch dial should be in the "UFO" case, not that newer one. Probably a replacement dial.


Many many many thanks for your help dear comrades, really apreciated.

So, finally i think i'm only going to buy the first Amphibia, that looks completely original, and i like my watches with all parts original. It's a shame because i like a lot all the others models, but i keep searching haha.

Many many thanks, i'm really glad for your info and catalog links.


----------



## system11

How about these Raketa Perpetual Calendars?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Mechanical-Watch-Raketa-Perpetual-Calendar-USSR-Black-3-Mineral-Glass/192935721173

Not sure about the short seconds hand and the year going past 2020?


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> How about these Raketa Perpetual Calendars?
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-...endar-USSR-Black-3-Mineral-Glass/192935721173
> 
> Not sure about the short seconds hand and the year going past 2020?


Franken. The main part is that it has a Soviet movement and the new Russian dial. Then the seconds hand. Then mineral glass (i think this style of the dial was still with plastic crystal). Calendar wheel is Ok cause it is from a modern version of the watch. Just my opinion....


----------



## system11

Could the movements just have been sat on a shelf? I ask because I'm looking at many others (amazing how many are on ebay alone) and at least half of the ones with the modern Raketa logo have SU stamped movements.


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> Could the movements just have been sat on a shelf? I ask because I'm looking at many others (amazing how many are on ebay alone) and at least half of the ones with the modern Raketa logo have SU stamped movements.


I theory anything is possible. But after the SU collapse, for quite sometime watches were made w/o made in on the dial. Then 'made in Russia' appeared on the dial. It had to be a very big shelf to have so many movements. It would be good to find a new watch with papers that has that setup. Why so many watches like that can be explained that there is a lot of watches with damaged dials. How one can fix it: find a modern dial and put it in. Right? But I may be wrong. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you? What do you think on this Rodina i just bought in a impulsive buy? What do you think is a right price for this watch?

The second hand should be gold right?


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you? What do you think on this Rodina i just bought in a impulsive buy? What do you think is a right price for this watch?
> 
> The second hand should be gold right?


I think all is good. Except the second hand should not be all red. But that is fixable I think with some acetone.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> I think all is good. Except the second hand should not be all red. But that is fixable I think with some acetone.


Many many thanks Odessa, what color should be? Gold?


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think all is good. Except the second hand should not be all red. But that is fixable I think with some acetone.
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks Odessa, what color should be? Gold?
Click to expand...

As far as I know, yes, just gold. I would take the hand off, look underneath. Most likely it is gold under the paint. Maybe rusted a bit but you can always repaint red if you do not like w/o the paint.


----------



## dutchassasin

This watch was on ebay for a short time, it intrigued me but was too late.
Definitely seen this dial before but i cannot recall.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Hey all. So I've been looking for a blue scuba dude with the sunburst dial, as opposed to the flatter teal they use now.

I haven't gotten more pictures from this seller yet, but does this look like the right one? I'm basically almost willing to buy it blind if it seems right, but obviously it's a little hard to tell without seeing the light hit it.

Hopefully the seller gets back to me, but any help would be great.

I saw another one that had the metal date window but was still the teal color so apparently that's not the only factor


----------



## Kamburov

dutchassasin said:


> This watch was on ebay for a short time, it intrigued me but was too late.
> Definitely seen this dial before but i cannot recall.
> 
> View attachment 14781979


Yes, dutch, you've seen it, probably in it's original case


----------



## dutchassasin

Kamburov said:


> Yes, dutch, you've seen it, probably in it's original case
> View attachment 14782161


Woah ! Very nice investigation work! . Been through so many catalogues i must have zoned out and passed right over them


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> As far as I know, yes, just gold. I would take the hand off, look underneath. Most likely it is gold under the paint. Maybe rusted a bit but you can always repaint red if you do not like w/o the paint.


Many many thanks dear comrade. When It arrives i'm gonna put photos here. And i'm going to clean the second hand with acetone. Do you think if i clean with acetone the original gold color will apear?


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as I know, yes, just gold. I would take the hand off, look underneath. Most likely it is gold under the paint. Maybe rusted a bit but you can always repaint red if you do not like w/o the paint.
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks dear comrade. When It arrives i'm gonna put photos here. And i'm going to clean the second hand with acetone. Do you think if i clean with acetone the original gold color will apear?
Click to expand...

Yes, if the gilding is underneath then it will be just revealed. Question is: why someone did paint it over? It maybe not gilded (then red looks better) or maybe rusted/damaged gilding. But lets be optimistic. As I said, you can always repaint it with a nail polish of your choice.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, if the gilding is underneath then it will be just revealed. Question is: why someone did paint it over? It maybe not gilded (then red looks better) or maybe rusted/damaged gilding. But lets be optimistic. As I said, you can always repaint it with a nail polish of your choice.


Many thanks Odessa. When i receive the watch i'm gona clean it with acetone to see if gold apears, if not i think i will paint in gold


----------



## Dubs.97

Hi guys, I got this watch as a gift and the person who gave it to me bought it from an antique store in Moscow, they claim it was made in 1940 do you think it’s real and how much is it worth? Thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

Dubs.97 said:


> Hi guys, I got this watch as a gift and the person who gave it to me bought it from an antique store in Moscow, they claim it was made in 1940 do you think it's real and how much is it worth? Thanks.


Welcome to the forum. Yes, it is real. Not a 100% original setup but so many years passed and watch was repaired many times. It is basically a mix of several watches (dial, case, movement, etc). But it is still a very nice setup. Yes, the movement was made in 1940. For the price: check ebay listings. Search for Kirovskie Type 1. That will give you a starting point.


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Hey all. So I've been looking for a blue scuba dude with the sunburst dial, as opposed to the flatter teal they use now.
> 
> I haven't gotten more pictures from this seller yet, but does this look like the right one? I'm basically almost willing to buy it blind if it seems right, but obviously it's a little hard to tell without seeing the light hit it.
> 
> Hopefully the seller gets back to me, but any help would be great.
> 
> I saw another one that had the metal date window but was still the teal color so apparently that's not the only factor
> 
> View attachment 14784843


bump!


----------



## dutchassasin

rainbowbattlekid said:


> bump!


NO this doesnt look like sunburst to me, your best bet is to get a soviet era scuba


----------



## Kamburov

No sunburst for sure. Are there any sunburst "made in Russia" editions?
Anyway, I think this is what you are looking for


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Well the new ones were sunbursty until sometime in the 2010s, yeah? Maybe that's not the right term, but they were a more BLUE blue that changed in light, before they turned to the more flat teal color they are now.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f54/mythic-vostok-blue-diver-69240.html THIS as opposed to this: https://i.redd.it/wtr4a6r44p121.jpg


----------



## Avidfan

Kamburov said:


> No sunburst for sure. Are there any sunburst "made in Russia" editions?





rainbowbattlekid said:


> Well the new ones were sunbursty until sometime in the 2010s, yeah? Maybe that's not the right term, but they were a more BLUE blue that changed in light, before they turned to the more flat teal color they are now.


They changed from sunburst to teal in 2013 :-( probably to cut production costs...


----------



## rainbowbattlekid

Yeah this seller says it was made in 2013, just doesn't look like the modern teal version so I wasn't sure. hopefully they can get me more pics in better light to be sure


----------



## Avidfan

rainbowbattlekid said:


> Yeah this seller says it was made in 2013, just doesn't look like the modern teal version so I wasn't sure. hopefully they can get me more pics in better light to be sure


Getting a 059 dial with a chrome frame around the calendar window used to be a guaranteed way of getting a sunburst dial, but now it seems that the chrome window is back on new watches available from some sellers...

The seller should of course have the passport to prove when it was made.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I had my first 31659 come in today and I am looking to get it authenticated please.
I think the case back is Chrome and not correct, I dont know if the box is correct and the passport (if you can call it that) looks like a parking validation ticket.  and is the bracelet correct and original? tell me what else is not correct, thank you for your time and opinions, jimzilla. :-!


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I had my first 31659 come in today and I am looking to get it authenticated please.
> I think the case back is Chrome and not correct, I dont know if the box is correct and the passport (if you can call it that) looks like a parking validation ticket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and is the bracelet correct and original? tell me what else is not correct, thank you for your time and opinions, jimzilla.


Any photos of the movement? 
Passport is easy: it is for 3133 so for sure not for 31659. 
The caseback is strange: is it pressed out? Polished? Newly made?
Is the case chromed or steel?
As far as the dial, etc: I gave up. So hard to figure out. Different variations and huge number of fakes. My brain refuses to absorb this. To me the dial looks 'flat'. Maybe just a photo....


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> Any photos of the movement?
> Passport is easy: it is for 3133 so for sure not for 31659.
> The caseback is strange: is it pressed out? Polished? Newly made?
> Is the case chromed or steel?
> As far as the dial, etc: I gave up. So hard to figure out. Different variations and huge number of fakes. My brain refuses to absorb this. To me the dial looks 'flat'. Maybe just a photo....


Hi Odessa200 I hope you are doing well sir. It does have a 31659 with a brass wheel, I should have snapped a pic when I regulated the watch. 
Is this thing supposed to have a stainless steel back let me know as I have a stainless back. I polished the chrome back as it had some scratches in it.
The case is stainless, does the bracelet look legit?


----------



## jimzilla

I put the stainless steel back on and snapped a couple of pics of the movement, hope it helps.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I put the stainless steel back on and snapped a couple of pics of the movement, hope it helps.


The movement looks good to me but whatever it is a good fit for this dial is a question I cannot answer 🙂


----------



## EndeavourDK

Hello Jim; I'm trying to compare your watch with the information given on the Polmax3133 website, but it is not conclusive. Your watch could be an early (≈1986), with an early (low number) "new" model 31659 movement. A telltale could be if the hands were blued or are they painted ?? If blued, it could get interesting ...


----------



## jimzilla

Hello sir, I hope you had a great Holiday Season.
They appear to be blued, I can see the texture of the metal.
I was also wondering if the box and bracelet are authentic as well.


----------



## EndeavourDK

According to Polmax3133, this (picture below) is how a "new caliber 31659 Sturmanskie", introduced in 1986 looks like. 

The text which belongs to this picture is as follows: 

"An early version of the new cal. 31659 Sturmanskie Introduced in 1986. Unique to this model are blued hands, similar to those on the older aviators, and a lighter shade of grey colouring on the dial. Future models would have painted hands, and a much darker two-tone grey dial, before being replaced with the white-on-grey/turquoise dials.
These particular dials are brass and paint does not to them very well at all, whereas it will stick to the indices and bezels, therefore extra care is necessary when removing the dial from the case, indices from the dial, and removing and replacing the hand set.
At this time changes to the military Sturmanskie were being made on almost a yearly basis, therefore the possibility exists that this dial succeeded the darker version, and just happened to be fit to an older movement and older hand set. However, in my opinion, that scenario seems unlikely"

I would suggest to compare yours with the Polmax3133 picture ...... ;-)


----------



## RedFroggy

Hi Jimzilla,
Can you post a clear picture of the dial with good view of the pilot insignia please ?
I am no expert, but the badge looks a tad strange .


----------



## jimzilla

Here are a couple of dial face pic's, thanks guy's.
First pic bright light second less light.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Hello sir, I hope you had a great Holiday Season.
> They appear to be blued, I can see the texture of the metal.
> I was also wondering if the box and bracelet are authentic as well.


Bracelet looks right. Box: probably. I can only offer mine from 1988 to compare with.


----------



## jimzilla

this is a long shot but does this paperwork match this watch?


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> this is a long shot but does this paperwork match this watch?


This is for 3133. Not for 31659.


----------



## Odessa200

Ministry: what do you think Comrades?


----------



## RedFroggy

Thanks Jimzilla. With all the limitations of my little knowledge, I am not too hot on the dial. It would be expected from an original lume not to glow strongly, but I still have a bad feeling about the insignia, ie : The outline of the pilot is looking too thick. 
However , it could well be that the dial is original but touched-up / restored.


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Ministry: what do you think Comrades?


Reproduction bezel :-(, balance cock might have been changed because of the straight edge, (but then again I've seen lots of Soviet 2416b where the balance cock has a straight edge and It looks as though the movement left the factory that way :-s), but the anti-shock spring at least has been changed as they should always be golden on a Soviet Vostok (IMHO), back of course should have a built-in anti-magnetic shield, and crown stems on anti-magnetic Vostoks are often copper coloured...

Have I missed something? probably...


----------



## jimzilla

RedFroggy said:


> Thanks Jimzilla. With all the limitations of my little knowledge, I am not too hot on the dial. It would be expected from an original lume not to glow strongly, but I still have a bad feeling about the insignia, ie : The outline looking too thick. It could have been restored.


I have to say thees navigators are quite mysterious and finding a 100% unmolested one seems hard to find. 
I have also noticed the watches posted in two different places for sale at the same time. This watch is an example.
On ebay it was $800.00 (yes $800.00) I purchased it out of Poland I am guessing from the original seller for $310.00 shipped, have any of you ran into that?.
Here is the video that was on ebay for $800.00






Anyway guys give me a thumbs |> or a thumbs <| as to weather you think it is real or FRANKEN


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ministry: what do you think Comrades?
> 
> 
> 
> Reproduction bezel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , balance cock might have been changed because of the straight edge, (but then again I've seen lots of Soviet 2416b where the balance cock has a straight edge and It looks as though the movement left the factory that way
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), but the anti-shock spring at least has been changed as they should always be golden on a Soviet Vostok (IMHO), back of course should have a built-in anti-magnetic shield, and crown stems on anti-magnetic Vostoks are often copper coloured...
> 
> Have I missed something? probably...
Click to expand...

Bezel: no clue. How do you tell apart?
Balance cock: had checked all mine and some I got have the matching docs. All from 80s have the slanted edge. All from 90s have a straight edge. All have the yellow spring. Is that what you normally see? 
Crown is replaced. Antimagnetic shield: not shown. 
Overall: not bad but I will pass. Not in a rush to get one. 
Thanks for the spot check!!!!


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> RedFroggy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Jimzilla. With all the limitations of my little knowledge, I am not too hot on the dial. It would be expected from an original lume not to glow strongly, but I still have a bad feeling about the insignia, ie : The outline looking too thick. It could have been restored.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say thees navigators are quite mysterious and finding a 100% unmolested one seems hard to find.
> I have also noticed the watches posted in two different places for sale at the same time. This watch is an example.
> On ebay it was $800.00 (yes $800.00) I purchased it out of Poland I am guessing from the original seller for $310.00 shipped, have any of you ran into that?.
> Here is the video that was on ebay for $800.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway guys give me a thumbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or a thumbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as to weather you think it is real or FRANKEN
Click to expand...

I have see this. Even contacted the seller who was selling my clock. ?. I got a clock from a Ukraine add place. But later noticed if for sale on ebay. Same photos. Double the price. I had added the ebay lot to my watch list (waiting for what will happen). Got a discount offer from the seller ? At this time I had contacted the guy telling him to stop selling items that he does not own. He said that he gave access to his ebay acct to his nephew and was not aware that his nephew was re-advertising items that he thought he can buy and resell. Not sure if that is true or not....
Also, when people (at least from Ukraine and Russia) sell on ebay they usually increase the price to compensate for the WeaternBid fees that charges about 20% I think.


----------



## jimzilla

Odessa200 said:


> I have see this. Even contacted the seller who was selling my clock. &#55357;&#56898;. I got a clock from a Ukraine add place. But later noticed if for sale on ebay. Same photos. Double the price. I had added the ebay lot to my watch list (waiting for what will happen). Got a discount offer from the seller &#55357;&#56898; At this time I had contacted the guy telling him to stop selling items that he does not own. He said that he gave access to his ebay acct to his nephew and was not aware that his nephew was re-advertising items that he thought he can buy and resell. Not sure if that is true or not....
> Also, when people (at least from Ukraine and Russia) sell on ebay they usually increase the price to compensate for the WeaternBid fees that charges about 20% I think.


I think it is some sort of scam to find a sucker and see if they will bite.


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Bezel: no clue. How do you tell apart?
> Balance cock: had checked all mine and some I got have the matching docs. All from 80s have the slanted edge. All from 90s have a straight edge. All have the yellow spring. Is that what you normally see?
> Crown is replaced. Antimagnetic shield: not shown.
> Overall: not bad but I will pass. Not in a rush to get one.
> Thanks for the spot check!!!!


Repro bezel is easy to spot the tops of the "5" are too long and all three lines of the "4" meet up to form a small chrome triangle...the same bezels were used on 119 Amphibia and early 34 Komandirskie so it's easy to compare.

The straight edged balance cock is often seen on Soviet 2416b from 1990-91 so it might be correct, but on one of these I would rather have one where all three bridges match, white metal anti-shock springs were introduced around 1995 so should never be seen on a Soviet Vostok IMHO.

Copper-coloured crown stems seem to be standard on Soviet anti-magnetic Amphibia and that's what I like to see and believe to be correct.

All small faults that are easy to fix...


----------



## EndeavourDK

RedFroggy said:


> Thanks Jimzilla. With all the limitations of my little knowledge, I am not too hot on the dial. It would be expected from an original lume not to glow strongly, but I still have a bad feeling about the insignia, ie : The outline looking too thick. It could have been restored.


Same here Jimzilla, limited knowledge :-(
Another check you could perform is to see whether the lume of the hands and the dial hour-markers do match up. That is to say that the strength should be equally and considering the age of the watch & the lume, the lume should loose its emitting strength quite fast till none some hours later. Again, the emitting strength from dial & hands should fade away equally. Usually these Soviet watches are totally useless for reading the time during the night.

I get a feeling that you like a swift answer with thumbs down for a Franken and thumbs up for a real and perhaps some comrades here can give you that straight answer, but I (we) have to go step-by-step. What makes it harder is that some of the components of your watch may very well be original & legit; such as the case and the movement. The movement seems to have all the correct "hallmarks"; the correct color balance wheel, color anti-shock spring and is in very nice (undisturbed?) condition.
Perhaps step-by-step we may reveal what it is, or until a knowledgeable comrade steps in and tells us all what it is ....

Curious about the lume test ....


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bezel: no clue. How do you tell apart?
> Balance cock: had checked all mine and some I got have the matching docs. All from 80s have the slanted edge. All from 90s have a straight edge. All have the yellow spring. Is that what you normally see?
> Crown is replaced. Antimagnetic shield: not shown.
> Overall: not bad but I will pass. Not in a rush to get one.
> Thanks for the spot check!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Repro bezel is easy to spot the tops of the "5" are too long and all three lines of the "4" meet up to form a small chrome triangle...the same bezels were used on 119 Amphibia and early 34 Komandirskie so it's easy to compare.
> 
> The straight edged balance cock is often seen on Soviet 2416b from 1990-91 so it might be correct, but on one of these I would rather have one where all three bridges match, white metal anti-shock springs were introduced around 1995 so should never be seen on a Soviet Vostok IMHO.
> 
> Copper-coloured crown stems seem to be standard on Soviet anti-magnetic Amphibia and that's what I like to see and believe to be correct.
> 
> All small faults that are easy to fix...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. Totally agree on all your points.


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bezel: no clue. How do you tell apart?
> Balance cock: had checked all mine and some I got have the matching docs. All from 80s have the slanted edge. All from 90s have a straight edge. All have the yellow spring. Is that what you normally see?
> Crown is replaced. Antimagnetic shield: not shown.
> Overall: not bad but I will pass. Not in a rush to get one.
> Thanks for the spot check!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Repro bezel is easy to spot the tops of the "5" are too long and all three lines of the "4" meet up to form a small chrome triangle...the same bezels were used on 119 Amphibia and early 34 Komandirskie so it's easy to compare.
> 
> The straight edged balance cock is often seen on Soviet 2416b from 1990-91 so it might be correct, but on one of these I would rather have one where all three bridges match, white metal anti-shock springs were introduced around 1995 so should never be seen on a Soviet Vostok IMHO.
> 
> Copper-coloured crown stems seem to be standard on Soviet anti-magnetic Amphibia and that's what I like to see and believe to be correct.
> 
> All small faults that are easy to fix...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. Totally agree on all your points.


----------



## jimzilla

All the lume on the watch matches. Thank you Roland and others for your expertise. Next time I buy one I will wait until one comes up on WUS with box and papers. 
I am guessing that is why it was priced the way it was. I would feel sorry for the person that would have bought this watch for $800.00 .... wow!!! that would hurt!!! o| 
This watch looks very nice and it will be a pleasure to wear it all the same.
Thank you guy's.


----------



## jimzilla

Here is the picture you requested Roland, thanks, james.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thanks Jimzilla for the "straight-on" picture with an un-obscured Sturmanskie symbol.

I've been looking at fake dials and I get the impression that there are more different types in circulation. I also compared your Sturmanskie symbol with my own dial, which is of a later date, but of which I'm 100% sure it's legit.
One difference I noticed with the fake dials I've seen is that the hour-markers, the metal part, do all have flat tops (see picture #1) All the original dials I've seen do have tilted / slanted edges. Your dial has the slanted edges. Also the hour-markers on your dial show some fine rust / pittings, a sign that there is some age to the dial.

Looking at the lume; The color of the hour-markers lume matches IMHO with the color of the lume in the hands and the color of the bezel 12-o-clock lume pip. Also IMHO all the lume does show a clear discoloring, a sign of age. If all the lume (the hands, the dial and the 12-o-clock bezel lume-pip) were fake / new, than the faker has done an outstanding / exquisite job. As I understood, the lume emission doesn't last long and all fades equally and with the same speed away. This is another sign that the lume is old and of same age.

I can't see & say anything about the minute- & hour-hand, but the sub-dial hands and chrono seconds-hands seem to be correct and all do clearly show signs of age.

As for the Sturmanskie symbol;

To compare I've selected 5 pictures; yours, mine legit and 3x pictures of fake dials; two are fake-dials currently offered on eBay and the last is a picture of my own fake dial.
One could perhaps argue about the green color in your symbol, how it is colored in, but the symbol seems to me leaning more towards the authentic side than to the fake. The spaces between the "tips" in the bottom green "wings" are as in the authentic symbol, but missing/closed in all the fake symbols. If fake, again the symbol is very well faked.

I'm very curious what other comrades do think, and I can be completely wrong, but the overall impression from the dials I've seen and compared with, your dial scores IMHO more points in favor of being authentic than against it.

Very curious if other comrades can point-out clear flaws in Jimzilla's dial ......:roll: :think:


----------



## system11

Franken or special order?


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> Franken or special order?
> 
> View attachment 14809693


Special order.


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks Jimzilla for the "straight-on" picture with an un-obscured Sturmanskie symbol.
> 
> I've been looking at fake dials and I get the impression that there are more different types in circulation. I also compared your Sturmanskie symbol with my own dial, which is of a later date, but of which I'm 100% sure it's legit.
> One difference I noticed with the fake dials I've seen is that the hour-markers, the metal part, do all have flat tops (see picture #1) All the original dials I've seen do have tilted / slanted edges. Your dial has the slanted edges. Also the hour-markers on your dial show some fine rust / pittings, a sign that there is some age to the dial.
> 
> Looking at the lume; The color of the hour-markers lume matches IMHO with the color of the lume in the hands and the color of the bezel 12-o-clock lume pip. Also IMHO all the lume does show a clear discoloring, a sign of age. If all the lume (the hands, the dial and the 12-o-clock bezel lume-pip) were fake / new, than the faker has done an outstanding / exquisite job. As I understood, the lume emission doesn't last long and all fades equally and with the same speed away. This is another sign that the lume is old and of same age.
> 
> I can't see & say anything about the minute- & hour-hand, but the sub-dial hands and chrono seconds-hands seem to be correct and all do clearly show signs of age.
> 
> As for the Sturmanskie symbol;
> 
> To compare I've selected 5 pictures; yours, mine legit and 3x pictures of fake dials; two are fake-dials currently offered on eBay and the last is a picture of my own fake dial.
> One could perhaps argue about the green color in your symbol, how it is colored in, but the symbol seems to me leaning more towards the authentic side than to the fake. The spaces between the "tips" in the bottom green "wings" are as in the authentic symbol, but missing/closed in all the fake symbols. If fake, again the symbol is very well faked.
> 
> I'm very curious what other comrades do think, and I can be completely wrong, but the overall impression from the dials I've seen and compared with, your dial scores IMHO more points in favor of being authentic than against it.
> 
> Very curious if other comrades can point-out clear flaws in Jimzilla's dial ......


Nice research. This post led me to thinking about usage of AI for watch authentication. It is not that hard to train an AI algo to analyze and place a watch in a Fake or Real group. All we need is a large enough sampling group of known watches. Getting tone of Fakes is easy. Getting many Reals is a bit harder. But how much time will this save! Imagine a web page where you upload an image and get an instant response Fake/Real with a probability %.


----------



## Kamburov

system11 said:


> Franken or special order?


One can never be sure about these comemmorative ones. That said ...
This is one very interesting watch. I've never seen this perpetual calendar type case with just one crown! Not sure this dial would fit in any other Raketa case. Also lumed dial and hands! Fitting for a military comemmoration. Very interesting watch indeed!
It very much feels legit to me. Just my humble opinion, shouldn't be taken as confirmation.
Not a fan of comemmorative watches but I like this one.


----------



## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks Jimzilla for the "straight-on" picture with an un-obscured Sturmanskie symbol.
> 
> I've been looking at fake dials and I get the impression that there are more different types in circulation. I also compared your Sturmanskie symbol with my own dial, which is of a later date, but of which I'm 100% sure it's legit.
> One difference I noticed with the fake dials I've seen is that the hour-markers, the metal part, do all have flat tops (see picture #1) All the original dials I've seen do have tilted / slanted edges. Your dial has the slanted edges. Also the hour-markers on your dial show some fine rust / pittings, a sign that there is some age to the dial.
> 
> Looking at the lume; The color of the hour-markers lume matches IMHO with the color of the lume in the hands and the color of the bezel 12-o-clock lume pip. Also IMHO all the lume does show a clear discoloring, a sign of age. If all the lume (the hands, the dial and the 12-o-clock bezel lume-pip) were fake / new, than the faker has done an outstanding / exquisite job. As I understood, the lume emission doesn't last long and all fades equally and with the same speed away. This is another sign that the lume is old and of same age.
> 
> I can't see & say anything about the minute- & hour-hand, but the sub-dial hands and chrono seconds-hands seem to be correct and all do clearly show signs of age.
> 
> As for the Sturmanskie symbol;
> 
> To compare I've selected 5 pictures; yours, mine legit and 3x pictures of fake dials; two are fake-dials currently offered on eBay and the last is a picture of my own fake dial.
> One could perhaps argue about the green color in your symbol, how it is colored in, but the symbol seems to me leaning more towards the authentic side than to the fake. The spaces between the "tips" in the bottom green "wings" are as in the authentic symbol, but missing/closed in all the fake symbols. If fake, again the symbol is very well faked.
> 
> I'm very curious what other comrades do think, and I can be completely wrong, but the overall impression from the dials I've seen and compared with, your dial scores IMHO more points in favor of being authentic than against it.
> 
> Very curious if other comrades can point-out clear flaws in Jimzilla's dial ......:roll: :think:


Wow Roland! thank you for the very detailed examination of this watch. I really appreciate your time, effort and the detail you went through to help authenticate my watch.
Because of you I am feeling better about this purchase. Honestly Roland, thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to do this I really appreciate it, 
best regards sir.


----------



## jimzilla

.


----------



## EndeavourDK

jimzilla said:


> Wow Roland! thank you for the very detailed examination of this watch. I really appreciate your time, effort and the detail you went through to help authenticate my watch.
> Because of you I am feeling better about this purchase. Honestly Roland, thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to do this I really appreciate it,
> best regards sir.


I also like to learn more about the 3133 Jim and every exercise helps. 
To me your dial is not a clear-cut fake or real and I was afraid that you were about to give up, assuming that you had been fooled and wasted your money. That would be a real shame if your watch turns out to be a very nice authentic example :roll:
Next to the case & movement, to me your dial has too many good details, like the old lume, the slanted edges of the hour-markers, the surface rust on them and above all the very detailed emblem. The symmetricity of the green "tail-wings" with the "gaps" in between is IMHO identical to the real. The details of the fake dials green "tail-wings" is a laugh in comparison to your dial. However, the hue of the green and the way it is applied is strange and seems "off" ...... It could be retouched, perhaps for some odd reason factory applied or completely authentic ...... I've no idea :-s :think:

Therefor I wish that more comrades can have a close look at your dial and give their verdict ....... Perhaps we all can't get to a conclusive answer, but to an authentication with a high probability ? :think:


----------



## RedFroggy

Re- Roland & Jimzilla...

I enjoyed reading your detailed & constructive excellent analysis Roland. Thanks for that . 
Personally I am sitting on the fence. 

To me, the main contentious point remains the dial itself.
On the positive side, the lume is very good, especially the low glow that would imply period material . It actually has a lovely warm patina . Very nice . Together with the overwhole dial’s details & construction, it certainly matches and points to an original .

However, as previously mentioned, it is the insignia that causes me concerns . In addition to the suspect application of the wreath green paint that you already mentioned, comparing to legit dials, the outline seems the issue, ie :

- the black line is , as a whole, quite thicker than expected ,
- parts of the line around the bomb are normally missing. On Roland’s specimen it is on the lower right part of the empennage (vertical stabilizer). On Jimzilla’s dial, on the other hand, the line goes all around the bomb and is very pronounced. Very unusual on legit pieces.
- but the biggest discrepancy, IMO, is that the presence of a black outline around the yellow shield, something that, I believe, is not observed on any original dials. 

So, a lot of good points but also something suspect . 
Excellent repro or touched-up dial, in doubt, I would have avoided.


----------



## Odessa200

RedFroggy said:


> Re- Roland & Jimzilla...
> 
> I enjoyed reading your detailed & constructive excellent analysis Roland. Thanks for that .
> Personally I am sitting on the fence.
> 
> To me, the main contentious point remains the dial itself.
> On the positive side, the lume is very good, especially the low glow that would imply period material . It actually has a lovely warm patina . Very nice . Together with the overwhole dial's details & construction, it certainly matches and points to an original .
> 
> However, as previously mentioned, it is the insignia that causes me concerns . In addition to the suspect application of the wreath green paint that you already mentioned, comparing to legit dials, the outline seems the issue, ie :
> 
> - the black line is , as a whole, quite thicker than expected ,
> - parts of the line around the bomb are normally missing. On Roland's specimen it is on the lower right part of the empennage (vertical stabilizer). On Jimzilla's dial, on the other hand, the line goes all around the bomb and is very pronounced. Very unusual on legit pieces.
> - but the biggest discrepancy, IMO, is that the presence of a black outline around the yellow shield, something that, I believe, is not observed on any original dials.
> 
> So, a lot of good points but also something suspect .
> Excellent repro or touched-up dial, in doubt, I would have avoided.


Here is one more (mine) for comparison. I believe it is a fully authentic.


----------



## RedFroggy

In addition to Odessa200 dial, here are 12 painted dials that I believe legit (from older 31569 c.1987 to more recent c.1992 housing 3133)

All display , to some degree, the same partial bomb outline, none the outlined yellow shield on Jimzilla's specimen.
















I do not present that as a proof but merely the variations of what I think (maybe wrongly) the insignia should look like & why I think the watch we are debating may have been touched up.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Excellent work RedFroggy :-!

In a way this all deserves its own thread. It wouldn't be long or all this Sturmanskie information gets snowed under and say in a years time, the same question arises and "the wheel has to be invented again"

Looking at the 2nd row, 2nd picture (or 4th picture) the green seems to me to have about the same hue as the green on Jimzilla's dial ..... :think:

As for retouching, which may very well be the case, but looking at the overall condition of the dial, why just (and by the looks of it the only) those parts of the emblem? I mean, considering the overall very good condition of the dial, what could have been so wrong with the emblem that it needed, and was worth going through the cumbersome and risky efforts of retouching :think:
If retouched, the person must have had a high degree of knowledge of how the emblem supposed to look like and must have worked meticulously precise and accurate. It for sure doesn't look like it was done in a drafty garden shed on a Sunday morning after a heavy Saturday night, the person must have had a proper workspace, lots of experience and proper tools .....

Interesting (Russian) stuff that makes you go .... Hmmm ;-)

Thank you all for your time & efforts in trying to solve this puzzle ... :-!


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I had a Poljot arrive with a 31659 movement. I am pretty sure it is a franken because of the case but the movement and the dial face/hand set looks in nice shape.
I would like to know what it looks like in it's original form, thank you, James.


----------



## Odessa200

Team, what do you think of this Poljot? Second hand is too long. Probably crystal is changed and a bit off. Anything else? Thanks!


----------



## lyi

del


----------



## lyi

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I had a Poljot arrive with a 31659 movement. I am pretty sure it is a franken because of the case but the movement and the dial face/hand set looks in nice shape.
> I would like to know what it looks like in it's original form, thank you, James.


The dial is fake, there were no such dials in Soviet time. The case looks authentic. Now, if the original "heart" belonged to 3133 then the back cover is correct, but all 31659 had "shturmanskie" stamped on it. The hands are cutlet; the big ones belong to after-1993 3133 movement; whereas the little ones and the red belong to 31659


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Team, what do you think of this Poljot? Second hand is too long. Probably crystal is changed and a bit off. Anything else? Thanks!


No, you about have it covered, comrade. I don't think the crystals on these were anything special. I would think a close replacement could be found. 
.
The only defect I see is a condition pointed out to me by a comrade when I first started collecting. Beware of automatic watches with well-worn crowns! Makes sense but if you rejected every soviet automatic with a worn crown you wouldn't have much to choose from.

Used to be mine:


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Team, what do you think of this Poljot? Second hand is too long. Probably crystal is changed and a bit off. Anything else? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> No, you about have it covered, comrade. I don't think the crystals on these were anything special. I would think a close replacement could be found.
> .
> The only defect I see is a condition pointed out to me by a comrade when I first started collecting. Beware of automatic watches with well-worn crowns! Makes sense but if you rejected every soviet automatic with a worn crown you wouldn't have much to choose from.
> 
> Used to be mine:
> 
> View attachment 14822133
Click to expand...

Thanks. Valid point about the crown. You had a lovely watch but speaking about used crowns and cases: I see that although the crown is new the case above it lost its gilding. This happens when the person scratches it with his nail while winding. So in that copy something was replaced. Obviously it is just a guess.

Given the price was roughly 50% of the current market price I bought it. Seller claims it was serviced so that is a bonus as well. Will see when I get it.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Thanks. Valid point about the crown. You had a lovely watch but speaking about used crowns and cases: I see that although the crown is new the case above it lost its gilding. This happens when the person scratches it with his nail while winding. So in that copy something was replaced. Obviously it is just a guess.
> 
> Given the price was roughly 50% of the current market price I bought it. Seller claims it was serviced so that is a bonus as well. Will see when I get it.


Price is always important and it sounds like you got a good deal. The damage to my example may have been caused by winding but since it even appears on one of the lugs I decided it was a bad plating job made worse by winding. Crown is not exactly new and fits in color well. Looks original.


----------



## jimzilla

lyi said:


> The dial is fake, there were no such dials in Soviet time. The case looks authentic. Now, if the original "heart" belonged to 3133 then the back cover is correct, but all 31659 had "shturmanskie" stamped on it. The hands are cutlet; the big ones belong to after-1993 3133 movement; whereas the little ones and the red belong to 31659


Thank you for your opinion lyi. I thought everything but the case was authentic, I see a lot of these out there with the same dial face / hand set combos out there.
I bought it not to collect, because I liked the dial face and was going to re case it in stainless steel. thank you lyi, best regards. james.


----------



## kakefe

Hello Comrades 
Any idea about this Sturmanski ? 









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

kakefe said:


> Hello Comrades
> Any idea about this Sturmanski ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Looks good to me except the back cover. I think it is from Sportivnie. Lets see what other folks say...


----------



## Kamburov

Not too familiar with these, but shouldn't it also have the mushroom crown?


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Not too familiar with these, but shouldn't it also have the mushroom crown?


Type 1 is pillow and type 2 is like a pill. This is type 2.


----------



## schnurrp

Kamburov said:


> Not too familiar with these, but shouldn't it also have the mushroom crown?


That's the 15 jewel model that has the mushroom crown.

It may have a 15 jewel model dial which had the "sparkling" type paint and curved edges and was a little bigger than the 17 jewel model and had to be cut down to fit. The distortion of lighting and crystal makes it hard to know for sure but the paint certainly looks a bit sparkly and the edges of the dial curved.


----------



## kakefe

Kamburov said:


> Not too familiar with these, but shouldn't it also have the mushroom crown?


I found these photos on web. One of them matched with the one that I posted.









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kamburov

I still haven't seen one in person, I'm as qurious about it as the OP.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> I still haven't seen one in person, I'm as qurious about it as the OP.


How come? You have quite a few watches. Not your cup of tea?


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> How come? You have quite a few watches. Not your cup of tea?


Oh, I'd love to score one. Just never got the opportunity and the money at the same time


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come? You have quite a few watches. Not your cup of tea?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, I'd love to score one. Just never got the opportunity and the money at the same time
Click to expand...

Yea... prices sometimes go crazy for these


----------



## reporterreporter

What do you think of this one? Some watches from this seller are good. Otherwise look too pristine.









Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


----------



## AaParker

Hello,

I like this Moskva, but I'm not sure about the hands. I have not seen a Moskva with those style of hands, but I don't know that much about them, so they might be correct? I was not able to find an example from the 1960 catalog or Watches of the USSR website that had these hands. As always, I really appreciate your opinions! Thank you.


----------



## fla

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> 
> I like this Moskva, but I'm not sure about the hands. I have not seen a Moskva with those style of hands, but I don't know that much about them, so they might be correct? I was not able to find an example from the 1960 catalog or Watches of the USSR website that had these hands. As always, I really appreciate your opinions! Thank you.
> 
> View attachment 14838715


I am not 100% sure, but it seems the hands have been taken from PChZ's Leningrad watches. Anyway, the hands look like belonging to PChZ, not 1MChZ watches.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> AaParker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I like this Moskva, but I'm not sure about the hands. I have not seen a Moskva with those style of hands, but I don't know that much about them, so they might be correct? I was not able to find an example from the 1960 catalog or Watches of the USSR website that had these hands. As always, I really appreciate your opinions! Thank you.
> 
> View attachment 14838715
> 
> 
> 
> I am not 100% sure, but it seems the hands have been taken from PChZ's Leningrad watches. Anyway, the hands look like belonging to PChZ, not 1MChZ watches.
Click to expand...

Agree. I am also super skeptical about the dial... any better photos?


----------



## Odessa200

reporterreporter said:


> What do you think of this one? Some watches from this seller are good. Otherwise look too pristine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Wrong crystal as far as I can see. Hard to see anything else (low resolution) and the crown is not fully visible


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Agree. I am also super skeptical about the dial... any better photos?


The dial looks like "Chistopol style" - similar to some of 28 caliber Volna/Vostok/Almaz but i don't remember exactly the same dial made by Vostok


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Agree. I am also super skeptical about the dial... any better photos?


The dial looks like "Chistopol style" - similar to some of 28 caliber Volna/Vostok/Almaz but i don't remember exactly the same dial made by Vostok


----------



## Kamburov

fla said:


> The dial looks like "Chistopol style" - similar to some of 28 caliber Volna/Vostok/Almaz but i don't remember exactly the same dial made by Vostok


The dial (especially numbers design and setup) resembles another 1MChZ watch - a recently disscussed Poljot model. 
Scroll down to catalogue image

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/before-after-4552677-66.html

The dial texture (although resembling certain volnas) is similar other Moskva models, seen here in Dashiell's collection

https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/moskva?lightbox=dataItem-jt02ounk

I think it's genuine and in excellent condition. The hands, though...
I don't think the model is featured in catalogues, but this beautiful dial demands this watch to be taken care of, and authentic hands refitted. Hope it's not criminally overpriced.


----------



## Odessa200

Kamburov said:


> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The dial looks like "Chistopol style" - similar to some of 28 caliber Volna/Vostok/Almaz but i don't remember exactly the same dial made by Vostok
> 
> 
> 
> The dial (especially numbers design and setup) resembles another 1MChZ watch - a recently disscussed Poljot model.
> Scroll down to catalogue image
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/before-after-4552677-66.html
> 
> The dial texture (although resembling certain volnas) is similar other Moskva models, seen here in Dashiell's collection
> 
> https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/moskva?lightbox=dataItem-jt02ounk
> 
> I think it's genuine and in excellent condition. The hands, though...
> I don't think the model is featured in catalogues, but this beautiful dial demands this watch to be taken care of, and authentic hands refitted. Hope it's not criminally overpriced.
Click to expand...

Resolution is not that great and it maybe an optical illusion but I find the numbers having different size and most importantly such a pristine dial and wrong hands? My guess is the dial was washed and repainted. Is the seller reputable and has NO fakes? Then maybe....


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Resolution is not that great and it maybe an optical illusion but I find the numbers having different size and most importantly such a pristine dial and wrong hands? My guess is the dial was washed and repainted. Is the seller reputable and has NO fakes? Then maybe....


Here are some more photos. I'm not sure they are much better than the previous photos.

I think the second hand is correct?


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Agree. I am also super skeptical about the dial... any better photos?


I think the dial's okay, comrade, kind of like this one from Dash's collection. Notice how the minute number orientation flips on both watches and the "4"s 1MWF font.









I also think the long "rice grain" hands like the above would be more correct.


----------



## reporterreporter

Odessa200 said:


> Wrong crystal as far as I can see. Hard to see anything else (low resolution) and the crown is not fully visible


Sorry, attached from my phone. Hopefully these are better quality.


----------



## Odessa200

reporterreporter said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong crystal as far as I can see. Hard to see anything else (low resolution) and the crown is not fully visible
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, attached from my phone. Hopefully these are better quality.
> 
> View attachment 14839891
> View attachment 14839893
> View attachment 14839895
Click to expand...

Wrong crystal, wrong movement (from an older watch), probably wrong crown.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Resolution is not that great and it maybe an optical illusion but I find the numbers having different size and most importantly such a pristine dial and wrong hands? My guess is the dial was washed and repainted. Is the seller reputable and has NO fakes? Then maybe....
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some more photos. I'm not sure they are much better than the previous photos.
> 
> I think the second hand is correct?
> 
> View attachment 14839195
> 
> 
> View attachment 14839197
> 
> 
> View attachment 14839199
Click to expand...

You maybe right. Changing hands is not a problem. Lots of such watches with good hands and any watchmaker can swap hands....


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> You maybe right. Changing hands is not a problem. Lots of such watches with good hands and any watchmaker can swap hands....


Many thanks to everyone who offered their expert opinions and advice. I really do appreciate it; I am truly grateful for everyone who gives their time and expertise to the forum. I think it will be a good project.


----------



## reporterreporter

Odessa200 said:


> Wrong crystal, wrong movement (from an older watch), probably wrong crown.


Thanks, Odessa.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> You maybe right. Changing hands is not a problem. Lots of such watches with good hands and any watchmaker can swap hands....


Might these hands work? Or better to keep looking?


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You maybe right. Changing hands is not a problem. Lots of such watches with good hands and any watchmaker can swap hands....
> 
> 
> 
> Might these hands work? Or better to keep looking?
> 
> View attachment 14840281
Click to expand...

Looks right


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Looks right


Thank you.


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Wrong crystal, wrong movement (from an older watch), probably wrong crown.


I think that all is wrong.. My view is that if you need a collectable Made in USSR Raketa Zero, it should be in classic big 051 case. The case shown at the picture is one of so-called "Vitebsk frog" cases used by ПЧЗ/ PChZ for 2603,2609 Baltika and 2609НА Cal. Given that Zero is one of the most popular made in the 80th Raketa, there are a lot of "assembled in kitchen" Zeros in such frog cases. But may be it's okay for Made in Russia Zeros


----------



## fla

schnurrp said:


> I think the dial's okay, comrade, kind of like this one from Dash's collection. Notice how the minute number orientation flips on both watches and the "4"s 1MWF font.
> 
> View attachment 14839549
> 
> 
> I also think the long "rice grain" hands like the above would be more correct.


https://auction.violity.com/101959088-chasy-moskva-1-mchz-im-kirova/ here is the same Moskva i think with the correct hands


----------



## AaParker

fla said:


> https://auction.violity.com/101959088-chasy-moskva-1-mchz-im-kirova/ here the same Moskva i think with the correct hands


Sure looks like it. Thank you!


----------



## Ole Juul

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2*

Please educate me on the "frankiness" of this Ebay offering. 
1960s RAKETA 2603 16 JEWELS MENS WRISTWATCH USSR SOVIET ERA

So it's a 2603 which I suppose Raketa could have used, and name on the dial looks awful, but looking at the movement I see a crown wheel with two screws. According to Ranfft that puts it between '55 and '59. I don't think that's possible, but would love to learn more about that.

PS: I see the seller has a lot of movements sold for parts. Presumably that's where he got the bits for his working ones. lol

PPS: Oops, I just realized this wasn't the new thread. Moderators please move is you think it's appropriate.


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> Please educate me on the "frankiness" of this Ebay offering.
> 1960s RAKETA 2603 16 JEWELS MENS WRISTWATCH USSR SOVIET ERA
> 
> So it's a 2603 which I suppose Raketa could have used, and name on the dial looks awful, but looking at the movement I see a crown wheel with two screws. According to Ranfft that puts it between '55 and '59. I don't think that's possible, but would love to learn more about that.
> 
> PS: I see the seller has a lot of movements sold for parts. Presumably that's where he got the bits for his working ones. lol
> 
> PPS: Oops, I just realized this wasn't the new thread. Moderators please move is you think it's appropriate.


Looks good to me. Except the movement should be secured by 2 missing screws. I would date this as 1961.


----------



## Ole Juul

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me. Except the movement should be secured by 2 missing screws. I would date this as 1961.


Thanks for taking the time to answer. Actually that's not the answer I expected.  I was applying my beginners' rules with zero experience and seeing that movement as an impossibility. But looking further I see where you are probably right. lol

The more I look at it, the more I like it now that I'm seeing it with different eyes. How hard is it to get appropriate case screws? I think I'll make an offer on it.

PS: I won't hold you responsible if it's not as expected.


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good to me. Except the movement should be secured by 2 missing screws. I would date this as 1961.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to answer. Actually that's not the answer I expected. ? I was applying my beginners' rules with zero experience and seeing that movement as an impossibility. But looking further I see where you are probably right. lol
> 
> The more I look at it, the more I like it now that I'm seeing it with different eyes. How hard is it to get appropriate case screws? I think I'll make an offer on it.
> 
> PS: I won't hold you responsible if it's not as expected.
Click to expand...

Screws are quite standard. If the movement moves a bit in the case then you better add screws. But it maybe tight enough w/o them. I have a Mayak just like that (same watch, different name on the dial). Yiu can get a few ild donor Raketas for things like screws. Look tor big lots with lots of beaten watches. Good luck!
And this is your watch with a diff color dial from Dash's collection ?. What do you say? Fantastic design!


----------



## Ole Juul

Just so you know. I got that one for $15. So now I wait a couple of months.

I'm curious about the Paketa logo though. It varies between just plain type and the large 'P" brand logo. It seems odd to me that they didn't use the brand logo on everything. I'm guessing that's a cultural thing, but would love to understand better.


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> Just so you know. I got that one for $15. So now I wait a couple of months.
> 
> I'm curious about the Paketa logo though. It varies between just plain type and the large 'P" brand logo. It seems odd to me that they didn't use the brand logo on everything. I'm guessing that's a cultural thing, but would love to understand better.


Soviet watches are different in that respect. 1st, around 60s factories went via rebranding and new logos/stamps emerged. Then there is old font and new font variants for some brands. Then cursive vs print. Then Cyrillic vs English. All these make the text appear different. Send a screens of what you are talking about.

Congrats on your purchase.


----------



## Ole Juul

I was referring to the previous pictures specifically. Your's has the "big P", which I assumed was what they decided the Paketa trade mark should look like. Yet, there are others, such as the one I just got, which use a plain font as a simple identifier. Perhaps trademarks, branding, and company identity were not part of the commercial culture there at the time. I don't know, but it certainly makes things interesting.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this Svet i have on my collection? I think all is good, but some opinions are better

I think i'm going to replace his plexi, what do you think?


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> I was referring to the previous pictures specifically. Your's has the "big P", which I assumed was what they decided the Paketa trade mark should look like. Yet, there are others, such as the one I just got, which use a plain font as a simple identifier. Perhaps trademarks, branding, and company identity were not part of the commercial culture there at the time. I don't know, but it certainly makes things interesting. ?
> 
> View attachment 14885573
> 
> 
> View attachment 14885571


?. Cursive and Type. Both were used.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what do you think about this Svet i have on my collection? I think all is good, but some opinions are better
> 
> I think i'm going to replace his plexi, what do you think?


All good! Yea, crystal needs to be changed.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> All good! Yea, crystal needs to be changed.


Many many thanks Odessa, is nice to hear this.

For the christal change, i have a press, but never tried to change one by myself. I think to extract the plexi i need to press the crystal from inside to outside. Then i measure the diameter, and when i have the new crystal i need to put it presing the crystal fron outside to inside.

Am i right?

Bests! and many thanks for your time


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> All good! Yea, crystal needs to be changed.
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks Odessa, is nice to hear this.
> 
> For the christal change, i have a press, but never tried to change one by myself. I think to extract the plexi i need to press the crystal from inside to outside. Then i measure the diameter, and when i have the new crystal i need to put it presing the crystal fron outside to inside.
> 
> Am i right?
> 
> Bests! and many thanks for your time
Click to expand...

You do NOT need the press. This is what you need: Crystal lift tool. Do this:
1) take out the movement and press out the old crystal with your finger from inside out. 
2) measure old crystal a few times and average it. Lets say you get 30mm
3) measure the opening as well you should see same. 
4) order the crystal that is .1 or .2 larger. In our example, 30.1 or 30.2mm
5) use the lift tool to install the crystal. You install it from the top of the watch. 0.1 extra may be a bit loose. To check I try to rotate the crystal with my fingers. If it rotates easily then I use crystal cement. .2 extra for sure will not be loose (if you measured it right). 
6) the tool works by grabbing the crystal all around and compressing it a bit. Plenty of videos on YouTube. Good luck!


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> You do NOT need the press. This is what you need: Crystal lift tool. Do this:
> 1) take out the movement and press out the old crystal with your finger from inside out.
> 2) measure old crystal a few times and average it. Lets say you get 30mm
> 3) measure the opening as well you should see same.
> 4) order the crystal that is .1 or .2 larger. In our example, 30.1 or 30.2mm
> 5) use the lift tool to install the crystal. You install it from the top of the watch. 0.1 extra may be a bit loose. To check I try to rotate the crystal with my fingers. If it rotates easily then I use crystal cement. .2 extra for sure will not be loose (if you measured it right).
> 6) the tool works by grabbing the crystal all around and compressing it a bit. Plenty of videos on YouTube. Good luck!


Many many thanks for your explanations comrade.

So, the press is not a valid tool, right? I bought it some time ago to close casebacks and it works fine, and i think for mineral plain glases it should work too. But i was in doubt about plexis

So i need to order this tool. But one question, this tool can scratch the crystal?


----------



## fla

Victorv said:


> Many many thanks for your explanations comrade.
> 
> So, the press is not a valid tool, right? I bought it some time ago to close casebacks and it works fine, and i think for mineral plain glases it should work too. But i was in doubt about plexis
> 
> So i need to order this tool. But one question, this tool can scratch the crystal?


If you buy an original crystal (a donor Raketa/Svet in the same case with good crystal), you can easily install it with fingers. Simply squeeze the crystal a bit and slightly rotate it until it has snapped to the case. Unoriginal crystal even the right size most likely has to be glued.

As said above all is fine with the watch, only a spacer is missing.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do NOT need the press. This is what you need: Crystal lift tool. Do this:
> 1) take out the movement and press out the old crystal with your finger from inside out.
> 2) measure old crystal a few times and average it. Lets say you get 30mm
> 3) measure the opening as well you should see same.
> 4) order the crystal that is .1 or .2 larger. In our example, 30.1 or 30.2mm
> 5) use the lift tool to install the crystal. You install it from the top of the watch. 0.1 extra may be a bit loose. To check I try to rotate the crystal with my fingers. If it rotates easily then I use crystal cement. .2 extra for sure will not be loose (if you measured it right).
> 6) the tool works by grabbing the crystal all around and compressing it a bit. Plenty of videos on YouTube. Good luck!
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks for your explanations comrade.
> 
> So, the press is not a valid tool, right? I bought it some time ago to close casebacks and it works fine, and i think for mineral plain glases it should work too. But i was in doubt about plexis
> 
> So i need to order this tool. But one question, this tool can scratch the crystal?
Click to expand...

No, it will not scratch. At least not much. It leaves small marks on the side but they are not visible with a naked eye. Because the pressure is distributed across so many teeth the impact on each spot on the crystal is not that big. Hence the damage is quite small. As mentioned above, you can try to muscle the crystal in if the fit is perfect. But personally I prefer to grab it with the tool, give the tool a slight twist, and gently deposit the crystal in the grove. Then release the tool. It also makes glueing crystal easy: when you have the glue in the grove and try to snap the crystal in it gets messy. With the tool I just put the crystal. No glue smudges.


----------



## schnurrp

If you're lazy or paranoid about being able to re-insert crown into old keyless works, crystals can be removed with crystal lift if enough shoulder is present without removing movement. Hold watch face down to keep any debris from falling into dial/movement.


----------



## Victorv

fla said:


> If you buy an original crystal (a donor Raketa/Svet in the same case with good crystal), you can easily install it with fingers. Simply squeeze the crystal a bit and slightly rotate it until it has snapped to the case. Unoriginal crystal even the right size most likely has to be glued.
> 
> As said above all is fine with the watch, only a spacer is missing.





Odessa200 said:


> No, it will not scratch. At least not much. It leaves small marks on the side but they are not visible with a naked eye. Because the pressure is distributed across so many teeth the impact on each spot on the crystal is not that big. Hence the damage is quite small. As mentioned above, you can try to muscle the crystal in if the fit is perfect. But personally I prefer to grab it with the tool, give the tool a slight twist, and gently deposit the crystal in the grove. Then release the tool. It also makes glueing crystal easy: when you have the glue in the grove and try to snap the crystal in it gets messy. With the tool I just put the crystal. No glue smudges.





schnurrp said:


> If you're lazy or paranoid about being able to re-insert crown into old keyless works, crystals can be removed with crystal lift if enough shoulder is present without removing movement. Hold watch face down to keep any debris from falling into dial/movement.


Hello dear fla

Many many thanks for your help. I don't have any Raketa/svet watch for parts so i think i'm going to buy a brand new crystal (this type of acrylic crystal is called plexi in English? ) I think they are so cheap on the web, and if i choose the correct one i think it could fit, i prefer not to use glue.

Do you know where can i buy one crysta?

About the spacer, do you mean an spacer between the movement and the case? If you are refearing to this, the watch have something like a spacer, but i've never seen one like this, is really thin

I can post a photo in a few hours, and you can tell me your thoughts

Hello comrade Odessa,

Many many thanks for your time, so i'm going to buy one of these tools and try It. In a few days i tell you the results 

Do you know where i can buy a crystal?

Hello Schnurrp

Many thanks for your help . Don't worry about that, i can extract the crown and the movement without any complication. I have changed some hands and dials some time ago. But never changed a crystal


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you buy an original crystal (a donor Raketa/Svet in the same case with good crystal), you can easily install it with fingers. Simply squeeze the crystal a bit and slightly rotate it until it has snapped to the case. Unoriginal crystal even the right size most likely has to be glued.
> 
> As said above all is fine with the watch, only a spacer is missing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it will not scratch. At least not much. It leaves small marks on the side but they are not visible with a naked eye. Because the pressure is distributed across so many teeth the impact on each spot on the crystal is not that big. Hence the damage is quite small. As mentioned above, you can try to muscle the crystal in if the fit is perfect. But personally I prefer to grab it with the tool, give the tool a slight twist, and gently deposit the crystal in the grove. Then release the tool. It also makes glueing crystal easy: when you have the glue in the grove and try to snap the crystal in it gets messy. With the tool I just put the crystal. No glue smudges.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you're lazy or paranoid about being able to re-insert crown into old keyless works, crystals can be removed with crystal lift if enough shoulder is present without removing movement. Hold watch face down to keep any debris from falling into dial/movement.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hello dear fla
> 
> Many many thanks for your help. I don't have any Raketa/svet watch for parts so i think i'm going to buy a brand new crystal (this type of acrylic crystal is called plexi in English? ) I think they are so cheap on the web, and if i choose the correct one i think it could fit, i prefer not to use glue.
> 
> Do you know where can i buy one crysta?
> 
> About the spacer, do you mean an spacer between the movement and the case? If you are refearing to this, the watch have something like a spacer, but i've never seen one like this, is really thin
> 
> I can post a photo in a few hours, and you can tell me your thoughts
> 
> Hello comrade Odessa,
> 
> Many many thanks for your time, so i'm going to buy one of these tools and try It. In a few days i tell you the results
> 
> Do you know where i can buy a crystal?
> 
> Hello Schnurrp
> 
> Many thanks for your help . Don't worry about that, i can extract the crown and the movement without any complication. I have changed some hands and dials some time ago. But never changed a crystal
Click to expand...

https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/acrylic-round-domed-watch-glasses


----------



## fla

Victorv said:


> Hello dear fla
> 
> Many many thanks for your help. I don't have any Raketa/svet watch for parts so i think i'm going to buy a brand new crystal (this type of acrylic crystal is called plexi in English? ) I think they are so cheap on the web, and if i choose the correct one i think it could fit, i prefer not to use glue.
> 
> Do you know where can i buy one crysta?
> 
> About the spacer, do you mean an spacer between the movement and the case? If you are refearing to this, the watch have something like a spacer, but i've never seen one like this, is really thin
> 
> I can post a photo in a few hours, and you can tell me your thoughts


Odessa has already advised you on where to buy plexy crystals. As for the spacer, yes, it's a thin ring.


----------



## Kamburov

There's an old trick about reinserting plexy crystals that works for many soviet watches. Thought everyone uses it. 
When you put the crystal in its bed (by hand), there's a section that stays still out. I use a hard flat tool (the back of my tweezers), that I put some soft cloth over (not to scratch the crystal).
Then I push it in like this















I do it strongly but gently, and it usually clicks in perfectly (you can always hear the clicking sound).
Hope that helps someone.


----------



## Limewater

Kamburov said:


> There's an old trick about reinserting plexy crystals that works for many soviet watches. Thought everyone uses it.
> When you put the crystal in its bed (by hand), there's a section that stays still out. I use a hard flat tool (the back of my tweezers), that I put some soft cloth over (not to scratch the crystal).


Great tip! And I'm glad to almost see your thumb in the picture!


----------



## fla

Well, my tip. If you find that a plexy crystal rotates after installation, i.e. it's a little bigger than it's needed, put the plexy crystal into boiled water for 5 seconds. It not always but quite often helps. 

But don't overdo it, for 5-6 seconds only, otherwise a plexy crystal could inlarge too much.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/acrylic-round-domed-watch-glasses





fla said:


> Odessa has already advised you on where to buy plexy crystals. As for the spacer, yes, it's a thin ring.





Kamburov said:


> There's an old trick about reinserting plexy crystals that works for many soviet watches. Thought everyone uses it.
> When you put the crystal in its bed (by hand), there's a section that stays still out. I use a hard flat tool (the back of my tweezers), that I put some soft cloth over (not to scratch the crystal).
> Then I push it in like this
> View attachment 14890849
> 
> View attachment 14890851
> 
> 
> I do it strongly but gently, and it usually clicks in perfectly (you can always hear the clicking sound).
> Hope that helps someone.





fla said:


> Well, my tip. If you find that a plexy crystal rotates after installation, i.e. it's a little bigger than it's needed, put the plexy crystal into boiled water for 5 seconds. It not always but quite often helps.
> 
> But don't overdo it, for 5-6 seconds only, otherwise a plexy crystal could inlarge too much.


Hellow dear comrades

Many many thanks for all your advices, i'm going to take care of it. I just ordered the tool that Odessa said and now the worst, the waiting time.

I pop out the crystal with my fingers like you recomemded me, and you can see the measures on the photo. I think i have to buy a 28'2 crystal, right? What do you think?

And about the spacer, the only spacer is this ring, so thin, do you think is the original?

Many thanks in advance guys


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cousinsuk.com/category/acrylic-round-domed-watch-glasses
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa has already advised you on where to buy plexy crystals. As for the spacer, yes, it's a thin ring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kamburov said:
> 
> 
> 
> There's an old trick about reinserting plexy crystals that works for many soviet watches. Thought everyone uses it.
> When you put the crystal in its bed (by hand), there's a section that stays still out. I use a hard flat tool (the back of my tweezers), that I put some soft cloth over (not to scratch the crystal).
> Then I push it in like this
> View attachment 14890849
> 
> View attachment 14890851
> 
> 
> I do it strongly but gently, and it usually clicks in perfectly (you can always hear the clicking sound).
> Hope that helps someone.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, my tip. If you find that a plexy crystal rotates after installation, i.e. it's a little bigger than it's needed, put the plexy crystal into boiled water for 5 seconds. It not always but quite often helps.
> 
> But don't overdo it, for 5-6 seconds only, otherwise a plexy crystal could inlarge too much.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hellow dear comrades
> 
> Many many thanks for all your advices, i'm going to take care of it. I just ordered the tool that Odessa said and now the worst, the waiting time.
> 
> I pop out the crystal with my fingers like you recomemded me, and you can see the measures on the photo. I think i have to buy a 28'2 crystal, right? What do you think?
> 
> And about the spacer, the only spacer is this ring, so thin, do you think is the original?
> 
> Many thanks in advance guys
Click to expand...

Yes, 28.2 is the way to go in my opinion. If too tight, super careful sanding can take a bit off but most likely it will just be perfect. Make sure you get the profile that allows enough clearance for the hands. The hands are not that long so probably HighDome will work. ExtraHighDome will work for sure. The list the inside clearance.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, 28.2 is the way to go in my opinion. If too tight, super careful sanding can take a bit off but most likely it will just be perfect. Make sure you get the profile that allows enough clearance for the hands. The hands are not that long so probably HighDome will work. ExtraHighDome will work for sure. The list the inside clearance.


Many thanks my friend, for its price i think i'm going to order both.

Bytheway for Next crystal changed,what is the rule to choose HighDome or ExtraHighDome


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, 28.2 is the way to go in my opinion. If too tight, super careful sanding can take a bit off but most likely it will just be perfect. Make sure you get the profile that allows enough clearance for the hands. The hands are not that long so probably HighDome will work. ExtraHighDome will work for sure. The list the inside clearance.
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks my friend, for its price i think i'm going to order both.
> 
> Bytheway for Next crystal changed,what is the rule to choose HighDome or ExtraHighDome
Click to expand...

Try and error ?
If the hands are long and reach close to the edge of the crystal you may need Extra High. If the Hands short then High. For slim watches like Luch probably Low will work. Never tried though.


----------



## AaParker

Hello --

I'm looking at this Rodina First Class. As far as I know they only came in gold cases, but this one was recased in a regular rodina case. I think everything looks good from the perspective that I know the case should be gold as far as I know, but I would be happy to wear this one that had the dial saved. My guess, from what others on the forum have mentioned, is that the original case was melted for scrap. I couldn't find any pictures on using an English language search engine, but forum member fla suggested, in another thread, to utilize Yandex.ru and that produced all sorts of pics with the gold case. That's a wonderful tip, thank you for that!

I'd appreciate any thoughts you have.

First picture is what a first class looks like in the gold case, and the one I am interested in follows.

Thank you!

Original Gold cased rodina:









One I am interested in. I think all first classes were gold cased originally?


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello --
> 
> I'm looking at this Rodina First Class. As far as I know they only came in gold cases, but this one was recased in a regular rodina case. I think everything looks good from the perspective that I know the case should be gold as far as I know, but I would be happy to wear this one that had the dial saved. My guess, from what others on the forum have mentioned, is that the original case was melted for scrap. I couldn't find any pictures on using an English language search engine, but forum member fla suggested, in another thread, to utilize Yandx.ru and that produced all sorts of pics with he gold case. That's a wonderful tip, thank you for that! I'd appreciate any thoughts you have. First picture is what a first class looks like in the gold case, and the one I am interested follows.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Original Gold cased rodina:
> 
> View attachment 14907993
> 
> 
> One I am interested in. I think all first classes were gold cased originally?
> 
> View attachment 14907997
> 
> View attachment 14907999
> 
> View attachment 14908001
> 
> View attachment 14908003
> 
> View attachment 14908007


Love it! I think it is good.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Love it! I think it is good.


Your thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank you, Odessa!


----------



## EndeavourDK

After having received a partial 3133 "Air-Fors" SU-27 watch and having seen a few more complete examples here on the forum and on the internet, I started to wonder what or from whom these watches actually are ? :-s
Are they made by Poljot or are they "brand X" watches just equipped with a 3133 Poljot movement ? :-s

We all know that somewhere in the '90s companies other than Vostok started to print their own dials with popular themes, with or without a fake Bostok "B" logo.
I'm wondering whether this has happened to Poljot 3133 dials as well? :-s

In the first two pictures two black-dial SU-27 watches. Both have two tachymetre / tachymeter. The name Air-Fors is spelled wrongly. Both dials differ in color schemes & have different hour-dots. Nowhere a "Poljot" logo or "made in" to be seen .... !?
Same counts for a white-dial SU-27 issue, shown in the third picture.
Forum comrade Sturmansk kindly sent me a picture of his SU-27 white-dial version back-lid, which suggest that the case is made by Poljot. The loose back-lid I received with the (aluminum :think case was from a 3133 Komandiskie.
Actually the very first picture is the watch which I received, however the picture must have been taken during better days. What I received were parts of it. The case, but for sure the pushers seem to be made out of aluminum .... :think:

Has anybody some knowledge / idea's or can shed some light on it ... :think:


----------



## AaParker

EndeavourDK said:


> After having received a partial 3133 "Air-Fors" SU-27 watch and having seen a few more complete examples here on the forum and on the internet, I started to wonder what or from whom these watches actually are ? :-s
> Are they made by Poljot or are they "brand X" watches just equipped with a 3133 Poljot movement ? :-s
> 
> We all know that somewhere in the '90s companies other than Vostok started to print their own dials with popular themes, with or without a fake Bostok "B" logo.
> I'm wondering whether this has happened to Poljot 3133 dials as well? :-s
> 
> In the first two pictures two black-dial SU-27 watches. Both have two tachymetre / tachymeter. The name Air-Fors is spelled wrongly. Both dials differ in color schemes & have different hour-dots. Nowhere a "Poljot" logo or "made in" to be seen .... !?
> Same counts for a white-dial SU-27 issue, shown in the third picture.
> Forum comrade Sturmansk kindly sent me a picture of his SU-27 white-dial version back-lid, which suggest that the case is made by Poljot. The loose back-lid I received with the (aluminum :think case was from a 3133 Komandiskie.
> Actually the very first picture is the watch which I received, however the picture must have been taken during better days. What I received were parts of it. The case, but for sure the pushers seem to be made out of aluminum .... :think:
> 
> Has anybody some knowledge / idea's or can shed some light on it ... :think:


Did you see this thread? Helps a bit, maybe? https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/air-fors-chronograph-64237.html

And this:https://uhrforum.de/threads/russischer-nachbau-valjoux-7734-air-fors-su-27.170095/


----------



## AaParker

duplicate


----------



## EndeavourDK

AaParker said:


> Did you see this thread? Helps a bit, maybe? https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/air-fors-chronograph-64237.html
> 
> And this:https://uhrforum.de/threads/russischer-nachbau-valjoux-7734-air-fors-su-27.170095/


Thank you very much :-!

No, I had not seen those links and especially, since I do speak/read German, the German link was a very interesting read; "dunklen Zeit".

Thanks a lot ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

Comrades, what do you think? All good? Thanks!


----------



## EndeavourDK

Doesn't look too bad to me ...... Lume seems fine and consistent, perhaps the bezel, but it has the correct color. Can't judge the movement. Google "Rising Star" and you will find plenty of examples. At least for tomorrow you don't have to set the date ;-)

Best is to wait for the final verdict of the Vostok Master, comrade Avidfan .......

Here's an Internet picture of a mint example, be it a 3AKA3;


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Comrades, what do you think? All good? Thanks!


This is a komandirskie 341270 and externally all looks good on this example :-!

From the 1993 catalogue:









The example you show has a earlier bezel and is just a production variant, here's the image from the 1990 catalogue with an error in the catalogue code and showing another bezel:









But it's hard to tell when the calendar is set on 1 or 11 if the movements from the correct era...:think:


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Doesn't look too bad to me ...... Lume seems fine and consistent, perhaps the bezel, but it has the correct color. Can't judge the movement. Google "Rising Star" and you will find plenty of examples. At least for tomorrow you don't have to set the date
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best is to wait for the final verdict of the Vostok Master, comrade Avidfan .......
> 
> Here's an Internet picture of a mint example, be it a 3AKA3;





Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Comrades, what do you think? All good? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> This is a komandirskie 341270 and externally all looks good on this example
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From the 1993 catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 14912665
> 
> 
> The example you show has a earlier bezel and is just a production variant, here's the image from the 1990 catalogue with an error in the catalogue code and showing another bezel:
> 
> View attachment 14912675
> 
> 
> But it's hard to tell when the calendar is set on 1 or 11 if the movements from the correct era...
Click to expand...

Thanks guys! Yes, I was skeptical about the bezel as well. Looked at the catalogs... thanks for confirming that this is a legit variant. What font does the calendar suppose to have?


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> What font does the calendar suppose to have?


Here's a couple of random pics off the web, first pic of a movement shows a typical late Soviet Komandirskie calendar font, note the very angular number "2" on the ring, this would be correct for your watch...









Here's a watch from 1996, note the top of the "2" is very different and more rounded, this type of font introduced mid-1994, many other numbers on this post-Soviet calendar ring have small differences as well but the "2"s are most noticeable, but it's impossible to tell when the calendar reads 1 or 11 :-d









Hope this helps rather than confuses


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What font does the calendar suppose to have?
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a couple of random pics off the web, first pic of a movement shows a typical late Soviet Komandirskie calendar font, note the very angular number "2" on the ring, this would be correct for your watch...
> 
> View attachment 14913105
> 
> 
> Here's a watch from 1996, note the top of the "2" is very different and more rounded, this type of font introduced mid-1994, many other numbers on this post-Soviet calendar ring have small differences as well but the "2"s are most noticeable, but it's impossible to tell when the calendar reads 1 or 11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14913145
> 
> 
> Hope this helps rather than confuses
Click to expand...

Thanks. Very clear.


----------



## RasmusSimling

Hi everyone,

I have only recently gotten into old Soviet/Russian watches - thus this is my first post in this forum (although I have been a silent reader for some time). So far I have acquired two watches. A good condition approx. 1964 cal. 2209 Vympel (one of the last ones with the вымпел name on the dial before they switched over to the Poljot name), and one of the Luch football watches also using the cal. 2209. I have managed to get some information on that watch from the factory in Minsk, and they state that it was made in 1982. If someone are curious on more details on that football watch, I will happily share the elaborate response I got from the factory somewhere (this thread might not be the most suitable place, I guess).

I have become quite intrigued by a lot of the playful watch designs Raketa made towards the end of the Soviet era and beyond in the 1990 (the big zero, some of the 24h watches etc.) - looking through old catalogues there are so many very peculiar designs.

I was hoping someone would help me have a look at this Raketa watch, which I am considering but am unsure about the originality of.

It is the eBay item number: 124095743531 (I am unfortunately not yet allowed to make links in the forum before I increase my post counter, so I hope you will be able to find the watch on eBay yourselves).

I have asked the seller to provide detailed photos of the dial and the movement:
















I have found this watch in a single Raketa catalogue:









Based on the fairly poor quality scanned catalogue photo, it seems like the hands are wrong on the watch on ebay (they are golden on the watch on ebay, whereas they seem to be black on the photo from the catalogue - why would anyone use black hands against a black dial?). The crown is also clearly not the original.
The movement is the correct 2609.HA and the case also seem to be correct. I have not seen much photos on the watch apart from the one photo in the catalogue - but on the detailed dial-photo the seller has provided, the dial and the golden print looks to be quite 'textured'. I think it looks rather good, but I do not know whether that 'textured' appearance is also on the original watches when they came out of the Raketa factory in the 1990s? Furthermore, there is a small 'notch' at the 12h part of the dial on the eBay watch - does this indicate anything?

There seem to be very very few of this watch on ebay and other places (does the watch have a 'nickname' to search for etc.?) - so I am having a hard time trawling through a log of them and comparing and getting an overview that way. So if someone knows more about the watch and indicators of an authentic piece, I am all ears 

Thank you for this great forum - this is such a giant vault of information to go through. I hope to learn a lot more from all you knowledgeable fellow enthusiasts, and hopefully also be able to contribute some along the way.

Best regards,
Rasmus Simling Kristensen (Denmark)


----------



## Odessa200

RasmusSimling said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have only recently gotten into old Soviet/Russian watches - thus this is my first post in this forum (although I have been a silent reader for some time). So far I have acquired two watches. A good condition approx. 1964 cal. 2209 Vympel (one of the last ones with the вымпел name on the dial before they switched over to the Poljot name), and one of the Luch football watches also using the cal. 2209. I have managed to get some information on that watch from the factory in Minsk, and they state that it was made in 1982. If someone are curious on more details on that football watch, I will happily share the elaborate response I got from the factory somewhere (this thread might not be the most suitable place, I guess).
> 
> I have become quite intrigued by a lot of the playful watch designs Raketa made towards the end of the Soviet era and beyond in the 1990 (the big zero, some of the 24h watches etc.) - looking through old catalogues there are so many very peculiar designs.
> 
> I was hoping someone would help me have a look at this Raketa watch, which I am considering but am unsure about the originality of.
> 
> It is the eBay item number: 124095743531 (I am unfortunately not yet allowed to make links in the forum before I increase my post counter, so I hope you will be able to find the watch on eBay yourselves).
> 
> I have asked the seller to provide detailed photos of the dial and the movement:
> 
> View attachment 14914275
> 
> View attachment 14914277
> 
> 
> I have found this watch in a single Raketa catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 14914279
> 
> 
> Based on the fairly poor quality scanned catalogue photo, it seems like the hands are wrong on the watch on ebay (they are golden on the watch on ebay, whereas they seem to be black on the photo from the catalogue - why would anyone use black hands against a black dial?). The crown is also clearly not the original.
> The movement is the correct 2609.HA and the case also seem to be correct. I have not seen much photos on the watch apart from the one photo in the catalogue - but on the detailed dial-photo the seller has provided, the dial and the golden print looks to be quite 'textured'. I think it looks rather good, but I do not know whether that 'textured' appearance is also on the original watches when they came out of the Raketa factory in the 1990s? Furthermore, there is a small 'notch' at the 12h part of the dial on the eBay watch - does this indicate anything?
> 
> There seem to be very very few of this watch on ebay and other places (does the watch have a 'nickname' to search for etc.?) - so I am having a hard time trawling through a log of them and comparing and getting an overview that way. So if someone knows more about the watch and indicators of an authentic piece, I am all ears
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for this great forum - this is such a giant vault of information to go through. I hope to learn a lot more from all you knowledgeable fellow enthusiasts, and hopefully also be able to contribute some along the way.
> 
> Best regards,
> Rasmus Simling Kristensen (Denmark)


Welcome! Here is from Dash's collection how this watch used to look in the Soviet time. The color for Hands, Indexes and the case matches in these watches. In the scan you attached the hands are gold. Now, your watch is made in post soviet time. The notch at 12 serves as a technological notch (I think) for the dial production or when it is mounted to the movement by a machine. What you had shown is the watch w/o the crystal. With crystal the notch is not that visible.


----------



## EndeavourDK

RasmusSimling said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have only recently gotten into old Soviet/Russian watches - thus this is my first post in this forum


BTW; Welcome to the forum from Odsherred :-!


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome! Here is from Dash's collection how this watch used to look in the Soviet time. The color for Hands, Indexes and the case matches in these watches. In the scan you attached the hands are gold. Now, your watch is made in post soviet time.


It's exactly the same Сделано в России/Made in Russia Raketa from the 1990s with unusual for a big 51 case hands. I can't say they are wrong, rather i have seen such hands only in smaller size Raketa's cases.


----------



## schnurrp

fla said:


> It's exactly the same Сделано в России/Made in Russia Raketa from the 1990s with unusual for a big 51 case hands. I can't say they are wrong, rather i have seen such hands only in smaller size Raketa's cases.


Agree. Although not clear at all the hands in the catalog look more like batons which is what I would expect.

Dash has the Year incorrect as 1980s.


----------



## schnurrp

On the other hand he also has this one:









How likely is it that he would have two versions of the same watch with the wrong hands?


----------



## Ole Juul

I got a Janata in the mail a couple of days ago and it was a disappointment, though it was not much money and I did fine on the other 6 Indian watches I bought. Nevertheless I think this one might run OK with a little tweak or two and advice from this forum.

The stem would not turn or pull out to set time. I did not want to force it, but with a firm effort I was able to pull out the stem and also turn it backwards slightly. At this point I decided that I needed to understand better what was going on before doing anything. Upon removing the back I could see the metal case spacer was bent and twisted. Subsequently I discovered that it had been crudely cut and was horribly out of shape now. Since I do have some experience with small mechanical parts and the tools, I tried straightening it and soon realized that I could improve it a little but the amount of work to shape it to new condition would be inappropriate. I subsequently compared with another watch of the same model and confirmed how things should be. At this point, the watch is running without the back and spacer, but I'm not convinced things are right.

Please note that I am a relative newbie, but do have some relevant skills and tools, just not watchmaking experience.

I took out the crown and stem and reinserted it carefully. I'm not sure if it is even possible to insert it incorrectly since it seems to be a square profile engagement. I turned it carefully to feel if there was any bend in it and it felt tight, but fairly even as far as I could tell under that condition. Visual inspection confirmed the same, but I'm aware that my eyes are not experienced in that regard. Now, after this little exploration the watch runs but it's still too tight to wind properly. I'm not sure what the best way forward is.

Should I find another metal spacer?
Should I get a couple of case screws instead? 
What could bend/break when the service person squeezed and forced a misshapen spacer into a case?

PS: I've found a great little list of diagnostic information about crown and winding here. It seems my situation is extreme though, since it was probably caused by inappropriate service person behavior.


----------



## fla

schnurrp said:


> On the other hand he also has this one:
> 
> View attachment 14916003
> 
> 
> How likely is it that he would have two versions of the same watch with the wrong hands?


I don't think the hands are wrong, i said the hands look unusual for the 51 case. Given the both watches are Russian, not Soviet made, i think they are 'legit' and have been assembled at the factory.


----------



## jimzilla

I was wondering if this is real or Franken, have not seen one with a black case? wondering what the value is, thank you, James.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/O~8AAOSwUcteQWnt/s-l1600.jpg


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> schnurrp said:
> 
> 
> 
> On the other hand he also has this one:
> 
> View attachment 14916003
> 
> 
> How likely is it that he would have two versions of the same watch with the wrong hands?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think the hands are wrong, i said the hands look unusual for the 51 case. Given the both watches are Russian, not Soviet made, i think they are 'legit' and have been assembled at the factory.
Click to expand...

See... you have arrived at the same thought as I. Dash's watch and the catalog are from USSR. This one is from Russia. It is NOT the same watch. It is made by different countries! ?. Ok, made by the same factory but there is a humongous difference between Raketa USSR and Raketa Russia. This is why I did not stipulate that the hands are wrong but rather said 'this is how this watch looked back in the USSR). ? it is hard to guess whatever or not this Russian model is right or not. W/o a catalog or a new watch with the paperwork from a respectable source all we can is to guess...


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> I got a Janata in the mail a couple of days ago and it was a disappointment, though it was not much money and I did fine on the other 6 Indian watches I bought. Nevertheless I think this one might run OK with a little tweak or two and advice from this forum.
> 
> The stem would not turn or pull out to set time. I did not want to force it, but with a firm effort I was able to pull out the stem and also turn it backwards slightly. At this point I decided that I needed to understand better what was going on before doing anything. Upon removing the back I could see the metal case spacer was bent and twisted. Subsequently I discovered that it had been crudely cut and was horribly out of shape now. Since I do have some experience with small mechanical parts and the tools, I tried straightening it and soon realized that I could improve it a little but the amount of work to shape it to new condition would be inappropriate. I subsequently compared with another watch of the same model and confirmed how things should be. At this point, the watch is running without the back and spacer, but I'm not convinced things are right.
> 
> Please note that I am a relative newbie, but do have some relevant skills and tools, just not watchmaking experience.
> 
> I took out the crown and stem and reinserted it carefully. I'm not sure if it is even possible to insert it incorrectly since it seems to be a square profile engagement. I turned it carefully to feel if there was any bend in it and it felt tight, but fairly even as far as I could tell under that condition. Visual inspection confirmed the same, but I'm aware that my eyes are not experienced in that regard. Now, after this little exploration the watch runs but it's still too tight to wind properly. I'm not sure what the best way forward is.
> 
> Should I find another metal spacer?
> Should I get a couple of case screws instead?
> What could bend/break when the service person squeezed and forced a misshapen spacer into a case?
> 
> PS: I've found a great little list of diagnostic information about crown and winding here. It seems my situation is extreme though, since it was probably caused by inappropriate service person behavior.


Hi. Is this a Soviet/Russian watch? A few photos would help greatly otherwise it is quite hard to envision what is that you are dealing with.


----------



## Ole Juul

Odessa200 said:


> Hi. Is this a Soviet/Russian watch? A few photos would help greatly otherwise it is quite hard to envision what is that you are dealing with.


Sorry, the HMT thread appears about dead and as I was looking about my many browser tabs, I forgot I was in the Russian section when I finally decided to post.

Yes, this in an Indian watch, and not Russian. It is an HMT Janata, but I do think my query is quite generic anyway.

I've done a little more exploring and it seems the watch runs when the spacer is not installed, and indeed has now run for some hours with the stem out. I also tested the stiffness of winding with the movement out of the case and it is a bit tight, but not really bad.

I examined the stem some more and found by turning it in the case without the movement that it did not turn completely evenly. And when I examined it in better light with high magnification, I can see that the stem is actually very bent. I guess I'll try to straighten it since I have nothing to lose, but am not holding out for a lot of luck with that since its tempered and can't be heated. A replacement is obviously in order - pending the price in this case.

It was a revelation to me that a bent stem could make it that tight. I assume people here with experience would take that for granted. Now I know.









It looks to me like the "service" person simply took a pair of cutters and nipped part of the ring away - presumably since it was misshapen to begin with. I see black oil on the stem, and I smelled lighter fluid when I opened the package. lol The seller suggested that it was damaged in transit, which told me right away that there was no point in pursuing further involvement with him. At least this could be a parts watch for the other two Janatas I have.

I guess the thing now is to look for another stem (assuming failed straightening) and another spacer and/or screws.

My question at this point is, should I put in those two screws, and is a spacer mandatory in that case?

Edit to add: The back and ring on the bottom are from another Janata in order to compare.


----------



## Odessa200

You need the spacer to prevent the movement from moving inside the case. If the back cover keeps it tight enough then it is not that needed. How about 2 holes w/o the screws: if you add screws the movement will be held in place securely. Right?
The bent stem: yes, needs to be fixed. Try very carefully straighten it but do NOT try to bend with pliers. Try hammering it back into the right shape. But it may break. Proper way is to let the steel out, then straighten, then harden back....


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> See... you have arrived at the same thought as I. Dash's watch and the catalog are from USSR. This one is from Russia. It is NOT the same watch. It is made by different countries! &#55357;&#56898;. Ok, made by the same factory but there is a humongous difference between Raketa USSR and Raketa Russia. This is why I did not stipulate that the hands are wrong but rather said 'this is how this watch looked back in the USSR). &#55357;&#56898; it is hard to guess whatever or not this Russian model is right or not. W/o a catalog or a new watch with the paperwork from a respectable source all we can is to guess...


The both watches have "Сделано в России" on the dials that means Made in Russia. The same "Сделано в России" is on the dial of the watch at photo posted by schnurrp. What are the Made in USSR Raketa you are talking about?

The PCHZ catologue you referred to is dated 1992 or 1993. Maybe you don't know, but USSR is "over" in 1991.


----------



## Ole Juul

Odessa200 said:


> You need the spacer to prevent the movement from moving inside the case. If the back cover keeps it tight enough then it is not that needed. How about 2 holes w/o the screws: if you add screws the movement will be held in place securely. Right?
> The bent stem: yes, needs to be fixed. Try very carefully straighten it but do NOT try to bend with pliers. Try hammering it back into the right shape. But it may break. Proper way is to let the steel out, then straighten, then harden back....


Thanks for answering. I do have experience bending keywork on expensive woodwind instruments, but this is tiny and I'm not going to anneal and re-harden this, though it did cross my mind. No, I broke it, just as expected. lol I'll see if there's a stem for cheap somewhere. Otherwise this will just be a donor watch for potential future NHT watches. Though I just say, that I'm now stuck on Russian watches and that's where the future is for me. 

Regarding choice of case screws or spacer, I was just wondering if one was better than the other, or what considerations one might have in that regard. I guess it's not that important. I'll put out a query on the HMT thread and see if there's any life there.


----------



## Balticum

Hello experts! Recently I added this Poljot De Luxe watch to my collection. I'm quite sure about authenticity but not sure about watch second hand color. What do you think- should it be black or the same color as hours and minutes hands (gold)?


----------



## Balticum

Hello experts! Recently I added this Poljot De Luxe watch to my collection. I'm quite sure about authenticity but not sure about watch second hand color. What do you think- should it be black or the same color as hours and minutes hands (gold)?
View attachment 14920889

View attachment 14920893


----------



## Odessa200

Balticum said:


> Hello experts! Recently I added this Poljot De Luxe watch to my collection. I'm quite sure about authenticity but not sure about watch second hand color. What do you think- should it be black or the same color as hours and minutes hands (gold)?
> View attachment 14920889
> 
> View attachment 14920893


Hello. All hands should be gilded for this model.


----------



## Balticum

Thanks! Probably this second hand is just painted black over original gilded one. Maybe it's worth carefully take/scratch of painted color.


----------



## Pasenow

Hey, 
And first of all thank you so much for all the contributors here since I've been feeding off your knowledge of soviet watches for quite some time, although silently. 
I want to purchase a Raketa and somehow this ticks all the boxes and appears to be genuine (hands are ok, movement seems in order) but it might appear to good to be true. I was wondering whether you can share your thoughts on its genuineness.


----------



## fla

Pasenow said:


> Hey,
> And first of all thank you so much for all the contributors here since I've been feeding off your knowledge of soviet watches for quite some time, although silently.
> I want to purchase a Raketa and somehow this ticks all the boxes and appears to be genuine (hands are ok, movement seems in order) but it might appear to good to be true. I was wondering whether you can share your thoughts on its genuineness.


All is fine with the watch. Such dial was used with at least 2 cases, #65 and #78, the watch you are going to buy, is one of them.


----------



## Odessa200

Balticum said:


> Thanks! Probably this second hand is just painted black over original gilded one. Maybe it's worth carefully take/scratch of painted color.


Quite possible. I normally take such hands off and check underneath. Sometimes you can see it. Or you can try acetone to remove the paint. If the hand is not gilded or rusted, etc, you can always paint it back to whatever color you chose.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> Pasenow said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey,
> And first of all thank you so much for all the contributors here since I've been feeding off your knowledge of soviet watches for quite some time, although silently.
> I want to purchase a Raketa and somehow this ticks all the boxes and appears to be genuine (hands are ok, movement seems in order) but it might appear to good to be true. I was wondering whether you can share your thoughts on its genuineness.
> 
> 
> 
> All is fine with the watch. Such dial was used with at least 2 cases, #65 and #78, the watch you are going to buy, is one of them.
Click to expand...

Looks quite good. The one thing I see the crown does not sit in its notch on the case (larger than the notch). Fla, what do you think? Wrong crown? I think this case, with a smaller notch, needs a smaller crown. The other case takes slightly bigger crown.


----------



## Pentona

-


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Looks quite good. The one thing I see the crown does not sit in its notch on the case (larger than the notch). Fla, what do you think? Wrong crown? I think this case, with a smaller notch, needs a smaller crown. The other case takes slightly bigger crown.


There are two types of #65 case, one does have a notch for a crown, another - doesn't . If the case of the watch being discussed has a notch, you are right, the crown should be smaller, exactly the same as shown at the 1st picture you have posted,with a chrome-plated case. If the case has no notch, i think the bigger crown is ok.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks quite good. The one thing I see the crown does not sit in its notch on the case (larger than the notch). Fla, what do you think? Wrong crown? I think this case, with a smaller notch, needs a smaller crown. The other case takes slightly bigger crown.
> 
> 
> 
> There are two types of #65 case, one does have a notch for a crown, another - doesn't . If the case of the watch being discussed has a notch, you are right, the crown should be smaller, exactly the same as shown at the 1st picture you have posted,with a chrome-plated case. If the case has no notch, i think the bigger crown is ok.
Click to expand...

Totally agree!


----------



## tyronefromamsterdam

Hi, a Chinese contact is offering me this piece. I have no clue about Russian watches - it looks nice though. He says its mid-80's, alarm clock.

What is it? Is it of any worth?


----------



## Odessa200

tyronefromamsterdam said:


> Hi, a Chinese contact is offering me this piece. I have no clue about Russian watches - it looks nice though. He says its mid-80's, alarm clock.
> 
> What is it? Is it of any worth?
> 
> View attachment 14923167
> 
> 
> View attachment 14923169


Welcome. Yes, it is a Soviet mechanical alarm. It is partially correct: gold hands/gold dial should be in gilded case. See attached. Cool watch. If works will vibrate on your hand similar to the modern smart watches. Price: around 30$ in this condition.


----------



## fla

tyronefromamsterdam said:


> Hi, a Chinese contact is offering me this piece. I have no clue about Russian watches - it looks nice though. He says its mid-80's, alarm clock.
> 
> What is it? Is it of any worth?
> 
> View attachment 14923167
> 
> 
> View attachment 14923169


Mid-80's, alarm clock, Poljot 2612.1. The case and crowns are to be the same shape as at the photo you posted, but gold plated.


----------



## tyronefromamsterdam

Thank you both! $30 seems fair for the mismatching case and crown. Fun little piece!


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think about this dial? Looks a bit strange to me. Could be fake?










Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this dial? Looks a bit strange to me. Could be fake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


Looks Ok except 2 last letters in the Jewels. And last R in USSR. Retouched text?


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this dial? Looks a bit strange to me. Could be fake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


I would say it's original :-! The cyrilic letter that looks like an "E" in the Russian word for jewels often looks too big on originals.

Have a close look at the example in comrade capannelle's collection: Amphibia Cassa 1190 tonneau | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Victorv said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this dial? Looks a bit strange to me. Could be fake?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk
> 
> 
> 
> I would say it's original
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cyrilic letter that looks like an "E" in the Russian word for jewels often looks too big on originals.
> 
> Have a close look at the example in comrade capannelle's collection: Amphibia Cassa 1190 tonneau | Vostok Amphibia CCCP
Click to expand...

Agree. Looks similar.


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks fine, except the lume that fell out. There are plenty of good and cheap pieces with this dial variant, i'd let it pass, unless you're a reluming expert.


----------



## Odessa200

Hello team. What is the correct cover for a watch like this? The one with Hermetic 20 atm or with Waterproof 200m ? Is the attached back right? I suspect it is from a standard ‘Bochka’.


----------



## Pasenow

I get lost easily on this thread: my apologies if my thanks come later than it's permissible. But, indeed, it was also the crown that raised some question marks for me: I asked the seller for better pictures and it seems to be legit. Thanks again for your help: both you and the other forum members.


----------



## schnurrp

Odessa200 said:


> Hello team. What is the correct cover for a watch like this? The one with Hermetic 20 atm or with Waterproof 200m ? Is the attached back right? I suspect it is from a standard 'Bochka'.


I'm not sure about that watch; I have my doubts about authenticity. Is not shown in any catalogs that I'm aware of. Assuming it is authentic, that back appears to fit the bill with its Latin script and "2209" movement designation. I have never seen any catalog pictures of backs.


----------



## Odessa200

schnurrp said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello team. What is the correct cover for a watch like this? The one with Hermetic 20 atm or with Waterproof 200m ? Is the attached back right? I suspect it is from a standard 'Bochka'.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure about that watch; I have my doubts about authenticity. Is not shown in any catalogs that I'm aware of. Assuming it is authentic, that back appears to fit the bill with its Latin script and "2209" movement designation. I have never seen any catalog pictures of backs.
Click to expand...

Thanks Schnurrp! 
I finally found my answer https://www.watchuseek.com/#/topics/4902863


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Looks Ok except 2 last letters in the Jewels. And last R in USSR. Retouched text?





Avidfan said:


> I would say it's original :-! The cyrilic letter that looks like an "E" in the Russian word for jewels often looks too big on originals.
> 
> Have a close look at the example in comrade capannelle's collection: Amphibia Cassa 1190 tonneau | Vostok Amphibia CCCP





Odessa200 said:


> Agree. Looks similar.





979greenwich said:


> Looks fine, except the lume that fell out. There are plenty of good and cheap pieces with this dial variant, i'd let it pass, unless you're a reluming expert.


Many many thanks guys, i just bough It for what i think a reasonable price

979greenwich, how much do you think is the right price for one in this condition? I hope i didn't waste my money

Very thankful for your help

Enviado desde mi Mi A1 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## 979greenwich

I'd say around 25 $.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> See... you have arrived at the same thought as I. Dash's watch and the catalog are from USSR. This one is from Russia. It is NOT the same watch. It is made by different countries! ��. Ok, made by the same factory but there is a humongous difference between Raketa USSR and Raketa Russia. This is why I did not stipulate that the hands are wrong but rather said 'this is how this watch looked back in the USSR). �� it is hard to guess whatever or not this Russian model is right or not. W/o a catalog or a new watch with the paperwork from a respectable source all we can is to guess...
> 
> 
> 
> The both watches have "Сделано в России" on the dials that means Made in Russia. The same "Сделано в России" is on the dial of the watch at photo posted by schnurrp. What are the Made in USSR Raketa you are talking about?
> 
> The PCHZ catologue you referred to is dated 1992 or 1993. Maybe you don't know, but USSR is "over" in 1991.
Click to expand...

You are right... looks like all such watches were made post the soviet time. Here is a good photo I found with the hands from catalog.


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> You are right... looks like all such watches were made post the soviet time. Here is a good photo I found with the hands from catalog.


To be honest, i don't know, i just could say i have never seen such dials with "Сделано в СССР".

But i do appreciate people who are able to say "you are right". ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

I've picked up this rather mint looking Vostok Am(f)phibia -d) with the Rocket capsule dial design. It's obviously a Post-Soviet automatic 2416 issue.
So far I've only the sellers pictures and I can't see if it is in a 420 or a 020 case.
It seems to have the original bezel with the (nice condition) lume-pip

A few questions I like to ask; 

1) on the dial it says 21-jewels; would this watch have the (rather) old 2416 movement with the steel-bearing reversing wheels or didn't they bother to mention the new 10x jewels?
2) On the internet I've seen more of these dials (also CCCP issues) in the Komandirskie 34 cases. However, here it is in an Am(f)phiba case :think:
3) I can't find this dial in a catalogue. Is a dial number known? Is it a special edition? Does anybody know more information about this dial?

Hope to hear ....... ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> I've picked up this rather mint looking Vostok Am(f)phibia -d) with the Rocket capsule dial design. It's obviously an Post-Soviet automatic 2416.
> So far I've only the sellers pictures and I can't see if it is in a 420 or a 020 case.
> It seems to have the original bezel with the (nice condition) lume-pip
> 
> A few questions I like to ask;
> 
> 1) on the dial it says 21-jewels; would this watch have the (rather) old 2416 movement with the steel-bearing reversing wheels or didn't they bother to mention the new 10x jewels?
> 2) On the internet I've seen more of these dials (also CCCP issues) in the Komandirskie 34 cases. However, here it is in an Am(f)phiba case :think:
> 3) I can't find this dial in a catalogue. It a dial number known? Is it a special edition? Does anybody know more information about this dial?
> 
> Hope to hear ....... ;-)


It's a franken IMHO, this dial should only appear in a plated case either a 09(1) or a 92(1) often called Generalskie cases by collectors but I think more correctly they should be categorized as auto-Komandirskie's unless of course they actually have "Generalskie" on the dial.

The movement could be anything, but my late-Soviet 2146b all have ruby rollers, I think steel rollers in the reversing wheels are from much earlier movements, "31 jewels" on modern 2416b is just marketing :-d

But as for a 2416b in a type 34 case? no it wont fit and there isn't a back that'll fit either, maybe you're getting the 34 and 09 cases mixed up :think:

But I don't recall this dial in any of the catalogues, but I expect there are a few in the usual collections...

I hope this helps a little ;-)


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> It's a franken IMHO, this dial should only appear in a plated case either a 09(1) or a 92(1) often called Generalskie cases by collectors but I think more correctly they should be categorized as auto-Komandirskie's unless of course they actually have "Generalskie" on the dial.
> 
> The movement could be anything, but my late-Soviet 2146b all have ruby rollers, I think steel rollers in the reversing wheels are from much earlier movements, "31 jewels" on modern 2416b is just marketing :-d
> 
> But as for a 2416b in a type 34 case? no it wont fit and there isn't a back that'll fit either, maybe you're getting the 34 and 09 cases mixed up :think:
> 
> But I don't recall this dial in any of the catalogues, but I expect there are a few in the usual collections...
> 
> I hope this helps a little ;-)


Thanks Avidfan ........ I will approach the seller. So far he has sold me genuine stuff and I would indeed be disappointing if it turn out to be a franken. 
Yes, I mixed up de 34 Komandirskie case with the larger in size Generalskie cases.
As for the movement, I think the steel rollers were substitute for ruby rollers well before the end of the Soviet period. Not sure, but a year 1986 sits in my head. So, I would have been surprised if it had steel roller and suspected already to lack of mentioning / marketing ;-)

I'll let you know what the seller has to say ......


----------



## capannelle

I summarize what I know, based on the specimens that I have seen for sale on the net. This dial was produced at the end of the Soviet era and in the immediate aftermath. it is not present in any known catalog. It exists in two versions: yellow and blue. The yellow exists only without the writing 'product in ussr'. Both versions tend to discolour and turn easily when exposed to light. These dials are always paired with the 2416b movement. They were produced with the Amphibia 420 case or with the 091 Generalskie case. The hands are the classic Generalskie hands, with the second hand without a dot. The blue dial code should be '667', the yellow one I don't know.
Here is my blue:


----------



## Avidfan

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks Avidfan ........ I will approach the seller. So far he has sold me genuine stuff and I would indeed be disappointing if it turn out to be a franken.
> Yes, I mixed up de 34 Komandirskie case with the larger in size Generalskie cases.
> As for the movement, I think the steel rollers were substitute for ruby rollers well before the end of the Soviet period. Not sure, but a year 1986 sits in my head. So, I would have been surprised if it had steel roller and suspected already to lack of mentioning / marketing ;-)
> 
> I'll let you know what the seller has to say ......


The 34 and 09 cases are easy to mix up...

I'm not sure the exact year when steel rollers changed into ruby rollers either but 1986 sounds like a good estimate 

But of course if the watch has a plated type 92 case then the only things wrong with it are the Amphibia crown, bezel and case back (and the fake paper tag this seller seems to add to most of his stock to give it that NOS look :-d) we'll see 

Edit: Here's a link to the examples in Dashiell's collection, I believe these dials should only ever appear in plated cases...https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/generalskie


----------



## SuffolkGerryW

Hi, interested in this, but 'alarm bells' are ringing - supposed to be made 1971-1983, but has the 'made in Russia' not 'made in USSR' on the dial.
_Edit _Also just noticed that the date window doesn't line up exactly


----------



## Odessa200

SuffolkGerryW said:


> Hi, interested in this, but 'alarm bells' are ringing - supposed to be made 1971-1983, but has the 'made in Russia' not 'made in USSR' on the dial.
> _Edit _Also just noticed that the date window doesn't line up exactly


For sure not made in Ussr (at least the dial). Then I find it quite strange the hands combination. Then the movement looks quite old. The balance speed regulator is against the end of the hairspring so you will not be able to regulate much in one direction if needed.

I would pass.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Avidfan said:


> The 34 and 09 cases are easy to mix up...
> 
> I'm not sure the exact year when steel rollers changed into ruby rollers either but 1986 sounds like a good estimate
> 
> But of course if the watch has a plated type 92 case then the only things wrong with it are the Amphibia crown, bezel and case back (and the fake paper tag this seller seems to add to most of his stock to give it that NOS look :-d) we'll see
> 
> Edit: Here's a link to the examples in Dashiell's collection, I believe these dials should only ever appear in plated cases...https://mroatman.wixsite.com/watches-of-the-ussr/generalskie


I spoke with the seller and he is very forthcoming. His honest opinion is that the watch is genuine, however without a passport, or another identical example with a passport and with the production date after the fall of the union, it all gets hard to proof.
He will send me this weekend some pictures of some other "same theme" watches which he like to sell and than I can make up my mind; to cancel, take it or take one of the others ......
So, we have to wait a bit and see what's on offer .....

Thanks for all the help so far .... stay tuned ;-)


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all,

has anyone seen such a chrono already? Is it really supposed to be a chrono? What mechanism should be inside? Mine is clearly not a chronograph...





_(Sorry for the quality of the photos, I took them late at night yesterday.)_


----------



## EndeavourDK

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all,
> 
> has anyone seen such a chrono already? Is it really supposed to be a chrono? What mechanism should be inside? Mine is clearly not a chronograph...


Indeed, where is the chrono part ?

"A chronograph is a specific type of watch that is used as a stopwatch combined with a display watch. A basic chronograph has an independent sweep second hand; it can be started, stopped, and returned to zero by successive pressure on the stem."

I'm not sure if the watch fulfills these creteria's ........ but perhaps it does? Very curious !


----------



## thewatchadude

Yep, it seems to have an independent sweep second hand, but nothing to start, stop and return it to zero... :-s :-d


----------



## SuffolkGerryW

Odessa200 said:


> For sure not made in Ussr (at least the dial). Then I find it quite strange the hands combination. Then the movement looks quite old. The balance speed regulator is against the end of the hairspring so you will not be able to regulate much in one direction if needed.
> 
> I would pass.


Think I will, thanks.
_Edit_ Perhaps I'm learning slowly some of the things to look out for!


----------



## mariomart

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all,
> 
> has anyone seen such a chrono already? Is it really supposed to be a chrono? What mechanism should be inside? Mine is clearly not a chronograph...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(Sorry for the quality of the photos, I took them late at night yesterday.)_


I remember seeing a quote attributed to this particular model of Slava, the quote was from the design department head of Slava (from memory) who said something along the lines of "yes, we produced Chrono dial with applied hands, because buyers liked the look but had no need for an actual Chrono", something like that.


----------



## 979greenwich

Maybe this will help:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Slava-fake...714149?hash=item42147f1465:g:Yv0AAOSwH1NeTD3Y
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-ru...760820?hash=item1f0c6263b4:g:ctwAAOSw0iNeX~Sw


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks mariomart. So just as those cheap watches we can buy for 5 bucks in a marketplace. Sometimes very nice looking, but we're happy when they actually give the proper time!

EDIT: I don't know much about Slava. Is it a Slava mechanism inside? And is it the right one?


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks. Mine doesn't have the quick date set button. It doesn't show the day of the week either. And the case is very different from the one you show. So could very well be a franken.


----------



## 979greenwich

God knows...does the date function even work, do the numbers fit the window?
If not, someone was faking something that is already fake


----------



## tyronefromamsterdam

I have been offered the following. Can anyone tell me what it is? Any worth?

tnx in advance!


----------



## fla

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks. Mine doesn't have the quick date set button. It doesn't show the day of the week either. And the case is very different from the one you show. So could very well be a franken.


Slava's cases with a quick date change button are intended for Slava 2427/2428 day/date movements. Your watch is a Slava 2414 date movement, that's why there is no a change button. The watch is an original Slava, but as it's already noted above, the chrono dials is just a decoration.


----------



## fla

tyronefromamsterdam said:


> I have been offered the following. Can anyone tell me what it is? Any worth?
> 
> tnx in advance!
> 
> View attachment 14944517


It's a PChZ Raketa made in 1995-1996 with a dial dedicated to the 300 anniversary of the Russian Navy. The case nicknames in Russia are "Star Wars" and "coffin".


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> tyronefromamsterdam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have been offered the following. Can anyone tell me what it is? Any worth?
> 
> tnx in advance!
> 
> View attachment 14944517
> 
> 
> 
> It's a PChZ Raketa made in 1995-1996 with a dial dedicated to the 300 anniversary of the Russian Navy. The case nicknames in Russia are "Star Wars" and "coffin".
Click to expand...

Totally agree. To add: the price is about 40$ or so. Maybe who collects watches with special dials can value it a bit more but this is mot a rare model that can make you rich....


----------



## thewatchadude

fla said:


> Slava's cases with a quick date change button are intended for Slava 2427/2428 day/date movements. Your watch is a Slava 2414 date movement, that's why there is no a change button. The watch is an original Slava, but as it's already noted above, the chrono dials is just a decoration.


Thanks for your answer.
Does anyone have a picture of a similar watch? This would comfort me further that mine is not a franken (not that I care a lot, but just for the knowledge).


----------



## Odessa200

Hi guys. What do you think? A possible combo? Thanks!


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Hi guys. What do you think? A possible combo? Thanks!


I would say the case is wrong, i think such Raketa and Svet dials are to be in a standard PChZ case.

I have a couple of PChZ's Mayak(Маяк) in case you have posted. The case itself is quite rare.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys. What do you think? A possible combo? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I would say the case is wrong, i think such Raketa and Svet dials are to be in a standard PChZ case.
> 
> I have a couple of PChZ's Mayak(Маяк) in case you have posted. The case itself is quite rare.
Click to expand...

I agree. But maybe... ?. I read somewhere that PChZ/EChZ used different cases...

I have a Mayak as attached here. Is this a Mayak case? I have seen Svet like this as well many times.


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> I agree. But maybe... &#55357;&#56898;. I read somewhere that PChZ/EChZ used different cases...
> 
> I have a Mayak as attached here. Is this a Mayak case? I have seen Svet like this as well many times.


We all know that EChL simply assembled watches from spares supplied by PChZ, but if i am not mistaken, EChL made only Raketa brand watches with Svet logo. I think the same models of Raketa and Svet were identical in all details apart from the logos.

The Mayak you posted is correct, i have two or three the same Mayaks in gold-plated cases. My opinion this case is ok for PChZ Mayak, not for Svet as EChL assembled only Raketas, not other PChZ brands, namely Mayaks, Rossia etc. But we could try to check in catalogues whether it's correct.


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. But maybe... ��. I read somewhere that PChZ/EChZ used different cases...
> 
> I have a Mayak as attached here. Is this a Mayak case? I have seen Svet like this as well many times.
> 
> 
> 
> We all know that EChL simply assembled watches from spares supplied by PChZ, but if i am not mistaken, EChL made only Raketa brand watches with Svet logo. I think the same models of Raketa and Svet were identical in all details apart from the logos.
> 
> The Mayak you posted is correct, i have two or three the same Mayaks in gold-plated cases. My opinion this case is ok for PChZ Mayak, not for Svet as EChL assembled only Raketas, not other PChZ brands, namely Mayaks, Rossia etc. But we could try to check in catalogues whether it's correct.
Click to expand...

Yea. Agree. So will be searching. As far as I know, the Svet is not in the catalogs. Especially EChZ svet. Once I get this Mayak/Svet I will examine it closely. But chances are it is a franken one. Correct parts. Incorrect combo ?
Thanks


----------



## Straight_time

fla said:


> (...) if i am not mistaken, EChL made only Raketa brand watches with Svet logo.


Don't forget Pobedas ;-)


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> (...) if i am not mistaken, EChL made only Raketa brand watches with Svet logo.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget Pobedas
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 14958577
Click to expand...

Nice!

I see quite a few Mayks with the round case for sale that I think will fit/belongs Svet. Then I will be able to swap my Mayak-cased Svet with Svet-cased Mayak ?

Am I correct that swapping cases for these 2 watches will yield 2 correct watches?


----------



## fla

Straight_time said:


> Don't forget Pobedas ;-)


You are right. It's a bit funny, i remembered that i had forgotten about EChL's Pobedas looking today at exectly the same Pobeda in my collection.


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> Yea. Agree. So will be searching. As far as I know, the Svet is not in the catalogs. Especially EChZ svet. Once I get this Mayak/Svet I will examine it closely. But chances are it is a franken one. Correct parts. Incorrect combo ��
> Thanks


Some Svets from 70s are in catalogues. I think that all Svets are made at EChZ, aren't they?
You are welcome.


----------



## willkerrs

Hello all,

I just want to check the authenticity of this 1941 Kirovskie pocket watch I bought. I know the photos aren't the best for this, but I don't have any others yet. I'd be very grateful for your help.


----------



## Straight_time

The whole balance bridge has been replaced with another coming from 2WF or Chistopol; other than that, it's very good looking for a watch made in war years. Nice catch!

Welcome to the forums ;-)


----------



## willkerrs

Thank you so much for your feedback.

Do you think it was a contemporary replacement? I can’t imagine it’ll be possible to know, but hey.

Thank you for the welcome, too. I’m literally just here for this one question. I’m a re-enactor and need a period watch for practical reasons.


----------



## Straight_time

Maybe (I say it again: "_maybe_") it could be possible to determine which one of the two factories (2nd Moscow, later known as "Slava", or Chistopol, later known as Vostok) did actually produce that part... for that, at least a couple of photos of the still balance would be needed.

For what matters to you most, anyway, rest assured that it's absolutely period correct -it may range from 1936 to 1946 if 2WF, or from 1943 to 1949 if Chistopol.

Repairing a movement by replacing a broken part with a fully compatible one, regardless of the maker, was an extremely common practice back in those days (ebay sellers have invented nothing...).
Unless the role you're going to play is that of the Director of the 1st State Watch Factory who has to show the watch to Stalin :-d :-d :-d IMHO you have all the rights to be very satisfied with your purchase.


----------



## Odessa200

Second the above. Good watch that is from the correct period. Replaced balance is of a significance for a collector but not for the re-enactment. You are all good!


----------



## Puglit

Hey Everyone!

What do you think about this Ракета 2623Н? Does it look all legit in its original vintage state? I’m not too sure about the crowns. I appreciate the input.


----------



## Odessa200

Puglit said:


> Hey Everyone!
> 
> What do you think about this Ракета 2623Н? Does it look all legit in its original vintage state? I'm not too sure about the crowns. I appreciate the input.


Back cover probably replaced. Balance assembly replaced. Cheers


----------



## Puglit

Thanks.


----------



## Lucidor

I stumbled over an Exacta branded Poljot Strela, a rather unusual export model. The condition is very nice, almost new, but the chronograph seconds hand is not what is typical on these watches. What do you make of it? Would it pe possible to source a correct hand other than from donor watches?


----------



## Straight_time

Great catch, congrats!

Spare hands aren't impossible to find on Russian sites (right now there's this ad on Meshok, but sometimes they also pop up on eBay... patience and perseverance ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

Update:

Go-go-go! :-d


----------



## SuffolkGerryW

Straight_time said:


> Update:
> 
> Go-go-go! :-d


For that price, I'd want the watch to go with it - $65!:-s:-d


----------



## rockytopsw

Hi all,

I'm pretty new to the forum, but I've been lurking for a long time. I'm looking for a Raketa World Time. I read the amazing buying guide at vintagewatchinc.com, which was extremely helpful. I wondered if you could offer your thoughts on this watch (pics below)? Most things look fine to me. I'm curious about the dial, as I know the brown dial is pretty hard to come by. The dial on this watch is a dark brown, and I wasn't sure whether it was just a dial in great shape or if it was from another watch (this is what I suspect since the color is so deep and most World Times I find are very faded). It's hard to find a good picture of a nice brown dial on the World Time. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

rockytopsw said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm pretty new to the forum, but I've been lurking for a long time. I'm looking for a Raketa World Time. I read the amazing buying guide at vintagewatchinc.com, which was extremely helpful. I wondered if you could offer your thoughts on this watch (pics below)? Most things look fine to me. I'm curious about the dial, as I know the brown dial is pretty hard to come by. The dial on this watch is a dark brown, and I wasn't sure whether it was just a dial in great shape or if it was from another watch (this is what I suspect since the color is so deep and most World Times I find are very faded). It's hard to find a good picture of a nice brown dial on the World Time. Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 15014897
> 
> 
> View attachment 15014903
> 
> 
> View attachment 15014905
> 
> 
> View attachment 15014915
> 
> 
> View attachment 15014917


Welcome to the forum. Smart of you that you asked. Pass on it. Dial may have been red/burgundy but this is not the issue. 
1) bezel and calendar is in Russian but the dial is in English. Collection of 2 watches. 
2) hour hand is wrong (look at the tip and compare to the minute hand tip)
3) second hand is wrong and broken
4) back cover wrong. 
Unless the price is great, you can do a bit better. Common model.


----------



## rockytopsw

Awesome, thanks so much. I missed that the dial language didn't match the calendar completely. Still working on figuring all of this out!


----------



## Straight_time

SuffolkGerryW said:


> Straight_time said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update:
> Go-go-go! :-d
> 
> 
> 
> For that price, I'd want the watch to go with it - $65! :-s :-d
Click to expand...

You aren't too familiar with average market prices of such _unusual export model in almost new conditions_ of Poljot 3017, are you? :-d


----------



## jimzilla

Is thiswatch for $128.00 real or franken? thank you, James.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/marywatchd...xeMAAOSwiMteZAKb&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562


----------



## jimzilla

DP


----------



## schnurrp

jimzilla said:


> Is thiswatch for $128.00 real or franken? thank you, James.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/marywatchd...xeMAAOSwiMteZAKb&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562


I wouldn't call that "franken", ie made up from parts of other watches combined and untouched, necessarily. It's more like a "fantasy" watch created and finished in modern times to look like a vintage treasure of some kind.

Anyway, it's not an authentic watch issued from a real USSR/RUSSIA watch factory. Avoid!


----------



## elsoldemayo

jimzilla said:


> Is thiswatch for $128.00 real or franken? thank you, James.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/marywatchd...xeMAAOSwiMteZAKb&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562


As a tip for spotting fantasy watches like this one, if you look closely at the numerals, the dial looks like it was printed. The texture of the black ring also looks like it was printed.


----------



## Ole Juul

How original is this Red 12 Kirovskie?

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Vintag...fde00e28f:g:VS4AAOSwrgFebisC&autorefresh=true

It's a bit pricey, but I think that's to be expected.


----------



## Odessa200

Ole Juul said:


> How original is this Red 12 Kirovskie?
> 
> https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Rare-Vintag...fde00e28f:g:VS4AAOSwrgFebisC&autorefresh=true
> 
> It's a bit pricey, but I think that's to be expected.


Not bad. The only thing is the case with the pins. As far as I know this watch from this year had non removable pins. Maybe they got broken or so you can use different bands the pins were removed, holes drilled. 
As far as I can see the rest is Ok. 
I would not pay 180 btw. 100 top. For 180 I would want a better condition. Just my price assessment


----------



## discosmiter

A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before. 
Is it real or fantasy?

Thanks for helping an addict to USSR watches 









Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


----------



## Kotsov

discosmiter said:


> A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before.
> Is it real or fantasy?
> 
> Thanks for helping an addict to USSR watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


Post the link for that


----------



## Odessa200

discosmiter said:


> A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before.
> Is it real or fantasy?
> 
> Thanks for helping an addict to USSR watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


Looks real to me


----------



## Kotsov

Odessa200 said:


> Looks real to me


Shush


----------



## Lampoc

discosmiter said:


> A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before.
> Is it real or fantasy?


Looking in an old Slava catalogue I found the case on one Slava and the dial in a different Slava. In conclusion: not sure


----------



## jimzilla

schnurrp said:


> I wouldn't call that "franken", ie made up from parts of other watches combined and untouched, necessarily. It's more like a "fantasy" watch created and finished in modern times to look like a vintage treasure of some kind.
> 
> Anyway, it's not an authentic watch issued from a real USSR/RUSSIA watch factory. Avoid!


thank you schnurrp and elsoldemayo
I did not think it was real, almost looks like a printed paper dial and not worth $128.00 I do like the styling may be I will offer $60.00?


----------



## Chascomm

discosmiter said:


> A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before.
> Is it real or fantasy?


If it's not authentic, it should have been.


----------



## Kotsov

jimzilla said:


> thank you schnurrp and elsoldemayo
> I did not think it was real, almost looks like a printed paper dial and not worth $128.00 I do like the styling may be I will offer $60.00?


I'd be tempted to do that. It's a nice looking thing. I'd have it in a flash.


----------



## discosmiter

Kotsov said:


> Post the link for that


Not possible as I do not have adequate rights...

Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


----------



## fla

discosmiter said:


> A bit on the high price end, but dial as I have not seen before.
> Is it real or fantasy?
> 
> Thanks for helping an addict to USSR watches
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


All is ok, it's a Slava 2427/081329.


----------



## sideways2

Not up on my Slava but I've been on the hunt for a greenie for a while now... any input on this one... first thing that strikes me in the English date...


----------



## Odessa200

sideways2 said:


> Not up on my Slava but I've been on the hunt for a greenie for a while now... any input on this one... first thing that strikes me in the English date...
> 
> View attachment 15021635


I have doubts that this case/dial combo legit. Never saw such watch in any catalogs


----------



## sideways2

Me either LOL *sigh*


----------



## fla

sideways2 said:


> Not up on my Slava but I've been on the hunt for a greenie for a while now... any input on this one... first thing that strikes me in the English date...
> 
> View attachment 15021635


Here is the right case


----------



## Kotsov

discosmiter said:


> Not possible as I do not have adequate rights...
> 
> Sent from my BBD100-1 using Tapatalk


What happened with this?


----------



## SuffolkGerryW

Kotsov said:


> What happened with this?


Give them a few more posts, and I reckon the 'rights' will come:think:


----------



## CYKORYAN

Not sure if this is legit. Love this dial, but I’m not sure if the case is correct for this sailboat model.


----------



## Straight_time

Model 020683 from the 1993 catalog.


----------



## brownm

I see watches like these being sold on eBay & Etsy, frequently described as "Raketa Aviator" watches. They're similar to the Volmax Aviator watches, without a date window or "17 JEWELS", and usually different hands.





















I doubt that they're really Raketa (or Volmax) Aviator 24 hour watches, but what are they? What watches would the dials have come from?

Thanks
Mike


----------



## brownm

Just noticed this one actually does say "19 JEWELS". Most don't, but do say "24 HOUR SCALE". None seem to have both phrases, unlike the Volmax Aviators.


----------



## Chascomm

brownm said:


> I doubt that they're really Raketa (or Volmax) Aviator 24 hour watches, but what are they? What watches would the dials have come from?


You're right. This watch is neither Raketa nor Volmax. As such, it does not deserve to wear the Aviator logo, or the Shturmanskie inscription on the back. That is two infringements of Volmax's trademarks right there.

In these kinds of watch, the dial never quite corresponds with any legitimate Volmax model. These dial would most likely have been made specifically for this watch. It's a cottage-industry watch. This is a new case back style that I have not seen before. The markings look shallower than the 'Russian Aviator' style that we've seen here before.


----------



## Olp1

Hey everybody, I’m new to the forum, visiting as a guest for quite a while and finally registered recently.
I’ve been searching poljot «.alarm.» on the net for two weeks and today I came across this one.
does someone has info on it?
Right above the cyrillic made in ussr there is also some writing, does someone knows what it says?

Take care of you with this virus spreading around wherever you are.


----------



## haha

Hello and welcome to the forum.
I'm afraid you're going to have to search a little more.
The hands are -very- wrong and i don't think this dial belongs to this case.
The text on the dial says the watch was made in the First state watch factory.


----------



## Olp1

yep I’ve seen so many different models but never seen this specific one before. I was curious about the typography of the brand and this extra line above the traditional CCCP one.
Plus the back has no number and the caliber looks too clean. &#55358;&#56631;&#55356;&#57339;.♂
Thanks for help.


----------



## Balticum

Hello experts! Probably I already know the answer, but worth to try- is this old Vostok watch with 1 MWF movement make any sense?














Thanks in advance!


----------



## Straight_time

Same sense as a Ferrari with BMW engine. :-d


----------



## fla

Balticum said:


> Hello experts! Probably I already know the answer, but worth to try- is this old Vostok watch with 1 MWF movement make any sense?
> Thanks in advance!


It's not easy to answer such questions, since we don't know neither the purpose of purchase nor the price.

Obviously it's a frankenstein, but if someone suggested me to buy them for 2$, i would as i need this early Pobeda's case, and the dial is not among the most frequent ones.


----------



## Balticum

fla said:


> It's not easy to answer such questions, since we don't know neither the purpose of purchase nor the price.
> 
> Obviously it's a frankenstein, but if someone suggested me to buy them for 2$, i would as i need this early Pobeda's case, and the dial is not among the most frequent ones.


If I remember correctly I bought it in flea market for 10 EUR. I agree- case can be used, mechanism works well, dial is nice (not bad as donor). I think this watch was daily used by previous owner as it didn't look that seller from small flea market would be investing time/effort in making it by himself.


----------



## Kotsov

Straight_time said:


> Same sense as a Ferrari with BMW engine. :-d


Is that a Frankengit then?


----------



## fla

Balticum said:


> If I remember correctly I bought it in flea market for 10 EUR. I agree- case can be used, mechanism works well, dial is nice (not bad as donor). I think this watch was daily used by previous owner as it didn't look that seller from small flea market would be investing time/effort in making it by himself.


You need a red "12" Pobeda dial and the proper hour and minute hands to get an early Pobeda 2602.


----------



## brownm

Chascomm said:


> You're right. This watch is neither Raketa nor Volmax. As such, it does not deserve to wear the Aviator logo, or the Shturmanskie inscription on the back. That is two infringements of Volmax's trademarks right there.
> 
> In these kinds of watch, the dial never quite corresponds with any legitimate Volmax model. These dial would most likely have been made specifically for this watch. It's a cottage-industry watch. This is a new case back style that I have not seen before. The markings look shallower than the 'Russian Aviator' style that we've seen here before.


That's good to know, thank you. Do you know if any of the Volmax 24 hour Aviators came without a date window?


----------



## jimzilla

Good day comrades. My pre-Covid-19 watch has finally arrived after 38 days in transit. I was out of sanitizer so I did the next best thing, 
I put the package within 6" of my x-wife's cooking for 10 seconds as it is known to kill anything on this planet. :-x:-x:-x
After that I opened the box to find a fairly nice specimen inside...... so I would like to know "IS IT REAL OR FRENKEN" thanks guys (Dont be shy Roland ;-) )


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Good day comrades. My pre-Covid-19 watch has finally arrived after 38 days in transit. I was out of sanitizer so I did the next best thing,
> I put the package within 6" of my x-wife's cooking for 10 seconds as it is known to kill anything on this planet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After that I opened the box to find a fairly nice specimen inside...... so I would like to know "IS IT REAL OR FRENKEN" thanks guys (Dont be shy Roland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Congrats on finally getting this great watch. I have no idea what the experts would say but this looks fantastic to me. Just a bit hard to see the crystal's shape.


----------



## schnurrp

While I find it hard to picture myself as an "expert" when it comes to any Russian watches there are some opinions that have accumulated over the years. I would expect a 31659 Sturmanskie with a balance bridge dated 1-87 to have the original low contrast gray dial like the one pictured below. The high contrast dial didn't appear until a couple years later.


----------



## thewatchadude

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all,
> 
> has anyone seen such a chrono already? Is it really supposed to be a chrono? What mechanism should be inside? Mine is clearly not a chronograph...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _(Sorry for the quality of the photos, I took them late at night yesterday.)_


Sorry to show this old post again. I'm looking for some catalogue illustration, ideally with some date. Does anyone know where I can find this?


----------



## haha

thewatchadude said:


> Sorry to show this old post again. I'm looking for some catalogue illustration, ideally with some date. Does anyone know where I can find this?


I could only find a similar one in the 1993 Slava catalog.


----------



## thewatchadude

Great--any link to the catalogue please?


----------



## haha

Oh, i'm sure you already have it ;-)
???????? ????? ???? ? 1934 ???? | ussr-watch.com

And here is the page. The watch is there twice under different numbers. Probably a mistake and one of the numbers could be yours ?!


----------



## thewatchadude

Thanks.
Actually I saw that one and I assume you are referring to Nos.2526531 and 2591573. The cases look very similar and the dials resemble too but I don't think these are fake chrono dials. Plus they have automatic movements, which mine doesn't have.

The search is still on.


----------



## thewatchadude

I retrieved a catalogue extract that a fellow member of my native language forum posted for me some time ago--had just forgotten about it. The catalogue is from 2003, the watch is a 3171715.


----------



## Bullseye the dog

Found this on the polmax site according to this it looks like they made them at the same time but I could be wrong I have both al grey and two tone dated 4/87 and 4/90 do you know if it has a stainless steel case or plated brass some have dates some do not not sure why perhaps some members can shed light on both questions


----------



## Odessa200

What do you think friends? Legit? The text antimagnetic is crooked.... no?


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> What do you think friends? Legit? The text antimagnetic is crooked.... no?


There are fakes of this dial but this one looks legit :-! the crooked text may be distortion caused by the crystal or just a bad day at the factory :think: and you can see the hand and dial lume is not quite the same colour but they often aren't ...

It's in the 1993 catalogue but I wont put up the image as I'm sure you know where to find it


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think friends? Legit? The text antimagnetic is crooked.... no?
> 
> 
> 
> There are fakes of this dial but this one looks legit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the crooked text may be distortion caused by the crystal or just a bad day at the factory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and you can see the hand and dial lume is not quite the same colour but they often aren't ...
> 
> It's in the 1993 catalogue but I wont put up the image as I'm sure you know where to find it
Click to expand...

Thanks Friend! I had purchased it. Lets see when I got it. I am not a big fan of this dial design but figured I would buy one and look at it live. Thanks for the advise.


----------



## Paradroid

Hello. Do we think this is original? Seller specifically says it is and is asking a lot of money. I'm drawn to the way the blue band doesn't neatly meet the indices at 2 o'clock and that doesn't look right to me - or did the originals have imperfections like this? 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Orig-Ear...manskie-Chronograph-Soviet-watch/233532051036


----------



## Paradroid

*duplicate sorry*


----------



## Odessa200

Based on my quick look: the watch Is Ok. Experts will for sure find some mismatches but this is Ok Okean as far as I can see. 

Not sure what blue band you referring. Bezel? Looks ok to me. The only think I see that the lume on the hands is fresher than the dial. So for sure some work was done on this watch. But It is hard to expect to get a perfect never touched Okean for 800. If you think if is a lot of money then you are mistaken. If you want a pristine copy then double that. Market is hot and these watches are harder and harder to buy. 

Good luck!


----------



## Paradroid

I didn't know what else to call the blue panorama-type decoration across the dial, that's what I meant


----------



## FWilkens

Appreciate if anybody in-the-know could tell me if this nvch-30 looks legit, please? The condition is a little bit too good to be true TBH.


----------



## Odessa200

FWilkens said:


> Appreciate if anybody in-the-know could tell me if this nvch-30 looks legit, please? The condition is a little bit too good to be true TBH.
> View attachment 15073867
> 
> View attachment 15073871
> 
> View attachment 15073873
> 
> View attachment 15073877
> 
> View attachment 15073879
> 
> View attachment 15073867


Nice one! I say it is legit. See what others say. And obviously it would be nice to see the movement... but movement is not a rare one here.

Condition is great but not unheard of. I have a new with the box and papers... so they do exist.


----------



## FWilkens

Odessa200 said:


> Nice one! I say it is legit. See what others say. And obviously it would be nice to see the movement... but movement is not a rare one here.
> 
> Condition is great but not unheard of. I have a new with the box and papers... so they do exist.


Thanks! Would you have an idea of market value for such a watch? I've seen them advertised in the past for u600-800$, but are they really selling at those prices?


----------



## Odessa200

FWilkens said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice one! I say it is legit. See what others say. And obviously it would be nice to see the movement... but movement is not a rare one here.
> 
> Condition is great but not unheard of. I have a new with the box and papers... so they do exist.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Would you have an idea of market value for such a watch? I've seen them advertised in the past for u600-800$, but are they really selling at those prices?
Click to expand...

Something like that.


----------



## elsoldemayo

It looks good. From those pics the only minor issue is the crystal has been replaced.


----------



## FWilkens

elsoldemayo said:


> It looks good. From those pics the only minor issue is the crystal has been replaced.


Do you mean it has been replaced with a regular acrylic?


----------



## 979greenwich

Personally, I would not touch a NVCH-30 that comes without the metal can, unless it is a super super bargain.

P.S. I just saw that two "NVCHs" for sale on ebay both have "only the lower half of the tin case". How's that for suspicious.


----------



## elsoldemayo

FWilkens said:


> Do you mean it has been replaced with a regular acrylic?


I thought the crystal on these should have formed a continuous curve with the case, but having checked my bookmarked threads, even the crystal looks original - https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/holy-grail-photo-heavy-3209042.html


----------



## FWilkens

elsoldemayo said:


> I thought the crystal on these should have formed a continuous curve with the case, but having checked my bookmarked threads, even the crystal looks original - https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/holy-grail-photo-heavy-3209042.html


yes, I believe it's the other way around that would indicate illegit.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Personally, I would not touch a NVCH-30 that comes without the metal can, unless it is a super super bargain.
> 
> P.S. I just saw that two "NVCHs" for sale on ebay both have "only the lower half of the tin case". How's that for suspicious.


Why not? I would imagine many good watches are w/o these tins.


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> FWilkens said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean it has been replaced with a regular acrylic?
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the crystal on these should have formed a continuous curve with the case, but having checked my bookmarked threads, even the crystal looks original - https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/holy-grail-photo-heavy-3209042.html
Click to expand...




FWilkens said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the crystal on these should have formed a continuous curve with the case, but having checked my bookmarked threads, even the crystal looks original - https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/holy-grail-photo-heavy-3209042.html
> 
> 
> 
> yes, I believe it's the other way around was is illegit.
Click to expand...

Crystal is good.


----------



## 979greenwich

Odessa200 said:


> Why not? I would imagine many good watches are w/o these tins.


There were not that many NVCh issued, and i would guess they were issued to officers who would take good care of them, along with boxes and paperwork. Kind of like, if they give you a medal of a Hero of the Soviet union, you don't throw away the box, do you?
Also, what do you really need to fake a NVCh? A 2209 movement (well there are plenty of them), some paddle hands, a somewhat modified 1190 case with lugs grinded to 22 m, a fake patinated dial and voila - 800 $.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? I would imagine many good watches are w/o these tins.
> 
> 
> 
> There were not that many NVCh issued, and i would guess they were issued to officers who would take good care of them, along with boxes and paperwork. Kind of like, if they give you a medal of a Hero of the Soviet union, you don't throw away the box, do you?
> Also, what do you really need to fake a NVCh? A 2209 movement (well there are plenty of them), some paddle hands, a somewhat modified 1190 case with lugs grinded to 22 m, a fake patinated dial and voila - 800 $.
Click to expand...

Sure. I would imagine newer watches will be with tins. Used watches will be w/o. Anyway, my point is: take a look at the watch. If you believe it is legit: get it. Tin presence or absence is not 100% guarantee one way or another. But I guess nothing is 100% assurance.


----------



## Avidfan

979greenwich said:


> There were not that many NVCh issued, and i would guess they were issued to officers who would take good care of them, along with boxes and paperwork. Kind of like, if they give you a medal of a Hero of the Soviet union, you don't throw away the box, do you?
> Also, what do you really need to fake a NVCh? A 2209 movement (well there are plenty of them), some paddle hands, a somewhat modified 1190 case with lugs grinded to 22 m, a fake patinated dial and voila - 800 $.


You forgot the extra-thick case back marked 30 ATM etc. a NVCh-30 is not complete without the correct case back, very hard to find originals and AFAIK they have not been faked...


----------



## Hartig

Hello,

It is my watch being discussed in the photos (i put it up for sale).

Crystal and caseback are both thicker and heavier than normal. I dont know how hard it is to create fake parts from scratch, but i guess its labor intensive since you cant reshape the civilian counterparts.

Movement looks legit to me as well (dont have photo at the moment).

However, the cyrillic text on the bottom of the dial is barely visible. Like the font is either too far out on the dial edge or its obstructed by the Crystal/tension ring. I have seen this on other examples as well so im not sure what it means.

Everything else about the dial seems very genuine to me so its a bit confounding.


----------



## Straight_time

979greenwich said:


> There were not that many NVCh issued, and i would guess they were issued to officers who would take good care of them, along with boxes and paperwork. Kind of like, if they give you a medal of a Hero of the Soviet union, you don't throw away the box, do you?


I think that we should first define what "not that many" could actually mean, since after all we are speaking of personnel (whoever said "officers" only, btw? I presume that scuba divers might have been troops of lower ranks, too...) whose figures through the years should sum up to thousands.

Then, I wonder for instance how many bricklayers would take good care for decades of box and instruction manual of a brand new percussion drill given them by their boss...:think: NVCh-30s were never meant to be rewards or retirement gifts, but true tool watches intended for heavy professional use instead: IMHO that's the main reason why not many of them have survived (even though experience teaches us that every now and then whole batches of leftover NOS full sets may still pop up somewhere).


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> 979greenwich said:
> 
> 
> 
> There were not that many NVCh issued, and i would guess they were issued to officers who would take good care of them, along with boxes and paperwork. Kind of like, if they give you a medal of a Hero of the Soviet union, you don't throw away the box, do you?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that we should first define what "not that many" could actually mean, since after all we are speaking of personnel (whoever said "officers" only, btw? I presume that scuba divers might have been troops of lower ranks, too...) whose figures through the years should sum up to thousands.
> 
> Then, I wonder for instance how many bricklayers would take good care for decades of box and instruction manual of a brand new percussion drill given them by their boss...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NVCh-30s were never meant to be rewards or retirement gifts, but true tool watches intended for heavy professional use instead: IMHO that's the main reason why not many of them have survived (even though experience teaches us that every now and then whole batches of leftover NOS full sets may still pop up somewhere).
Click to expand...

Totally agree. This is why I said, as a norm, with the can would be a new one from storage/collection. The moment someone starts using the watch they would throw away the tin can. Not convenient to store a watch with the strap in it.


----------



## Odessa200

Hartig said:


> Hello,
> 
> It is my watch being discussed in the photos (i put it up for sale).
> 
> Crystal and caseback are both thicker and heavier than normal. I dont know how hard it is to create fake parts from scratch, but i guess its labor intensive since you cant reshape the civilian counterparts.
> 
> Movement looks legit to me as well (dont have photo at the moment).
> 
> However, the cyrillic text on the bottom of the dial is barely visible. Like the font is either too far out on the dial edge or its obstructed by the Crystal/tension ring. I have seen this on other examples as well so im not sure what it means.
> 
> Everything else about the dial seems very genuine to me so its a bit confounding.


Hi. As we said above, looks like a good genuine NVCh-30. Wish you all the best.

Personally I would buy a new with papers the other models (already have this one). 
Cheers!


----------



## fla

Straight_time said:


> I think that we should first define what "not that many" could actually mean, since after all we are speaking of personnel (whoever said "officers" only, btw? I presume that scuba divers might have been troops of lower ranks, too...) whose figures through the years should sum up to thousands.
> 
> Then, I wonder for instance how many bricklayers would take good care for decades of box and instruction manual of a brand new percussion drill given them by their boss...:think: NVCh-30s were never meant to be rewards or retirement gifts, but true tool watches intended for heavy professional use instead: IMHO that's the main reason why not many of them have survived (even though experience teaches us that every now and then whole batches of leftover NOS full sets may still pop up somewhere).


That's exactly what I was going to say, but you have got ahead me. Moveover, I can't imagine that someone would take the same care of a country's highest reward and a tool watch, no matter, is it a NVCh-30 or a pilot's Daytona/Speedmaster etc.


----------



## FWilkens

Avidfan said:


> You forgot the extra-thick case back marked 30 ATM etc. a NVCh-30 is not complete without the correct case back, very hard to find originals and AFAIK they have not been faked...


Judging by the pictures I posted, this watch has both correct caseback and acrylic crystal, or?


----------



## Avidfan

FWilkens said:


> Judging by the pictures I posted, this watch has both correct caseback and acrylic crystal, or?


My own opinion (and that's all it is) is that externally everything looks correct on the watch, there's loads of information on the NVCh-30 on f/10 and elsewhere on the internet that is worth reading carefully so you can make up your own mind before you purchase one of these...


----------



## MattBrace

FWilkens said:


> Judging by the pictures I posted, this watch has both correct caseback and acrylic crystal, or?


Some light reading on the subject for you, certainly nothing wrong with the example you have pictured.

https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/vostok/nvch-30/

Cheers...


----------



## elsoldemayo

Good to see you frequenting these parts again Matt |>


----------



## MattBrace

elsoldemayo said:


> Good to see you frequenting these parts again Matt


It's good to be back, thanks Comrade.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you? I'm writing to know, if it's possible, your thought about a few watches on my collection

First of all is this Raketa, i think is 100% legit, what do you think?









The second one is this, i think all is correct except the case







And the third, i'm in doubt with the dial, never seen another one like this, maybe the caseback is wrong too.







Many many thanks in advance. I have a few more, but for now i think it's ok

Bests

Víctor


----------



## Straight_time

About the Mayak yes, the case is 1MChZ; I can't read the jewel count on the movement, but would anyway expect to see the Petrodvorets diamond logo stamped on it, not the Raketa one... :think:

The Vostok seems totally correct to me. ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you? I'm writing to know, if it's possible, your thought about a few watches on my collection
> 
> And the third, i'm in doubt with the dial, never seen another one like this, maybe the caseback is wrong too.
> 
> Many many thanks in advance. I have a few more, but for now i think it's ok
> 
> Bests
> 
> Víctor


I won't comment on the first two as others will know much more than me, but I think you are right to have suspicions about the Vostok.

I think I've only ever seen that dial in a 33 case with crown @ 2 or 3 :think:, also this dial most often has black painted Komandirskie hands with a red second hand that are more readable against the white dial :think:

The movement looks typically Soviet with the 3 slot left-hand crown screw and golden anti-shock spring etc. but that first type "big bird" case back was used approx. 1995-2000 so I think something has been changed at some time...:think:

If you ever have reason to take the watch apart see if the dial has got it's original feet, if they've been removed then I would say it's probably franken but if they are there then the dial is ok for that case but It probably started out in the type 33 case with crown @ 3...

I hope all this makes sense :-d and all IMHO of course...


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> About the Mayak yes, the case is 1MChZ; I can't read the jewel count on the movement, but would anyway expect to see the Petrodvorets diamond logo stamped on it, not the Raketa one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Vostok seems totally correct to me.


Agree. This is a later movement. Should be with the dimond.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you? I'm writing to know, if it's possible, your thought about a few watches on my collection
> 
> First of all is this Raketa, i think is 100% legit, what do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second one is this, i think all is correct except the case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the third, i'm in doubt with the dial, never seen another one like this, maybe the caseback is wrong too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many many thanks in advance. I have a few more, but for now i think it's ok
> 
> Bests
> 
> Víctor


Not sure about Raketa. Gilden indexes, chome body, yellow crown, black hands....


----------



## Victorv

Straight_time said:


> About the Mayak yes, the case is 1MChZ; I can't read the jewel count on the movement, but would anyway expect to see the Petrodvorets diamond logo stamped on it, not the Raketa one... :think:
> 
> The Vostok seems totally correct to me. ;-)





Avidfan said:


> I won't comment on the first two as others will know much more than me, but I think you are right to have suspicions about the Vostok.
> 
> I think I've only ever seen that dial in a 33 case with crown @ 2 or 3 :think:, also this dial most often has black painted Komandirskie hands with a red second hand that are more readable against the white dial :think:
> 
> The movement looks typically Soviet with the 3 slot left-hand crown screw and golden anti-shock spring etc. but that first type "big bird" case back was used approx. 1995-2000 so I think something has been changed at some time...:think:
> 
> If you ever have reason to take the watch apart see if the dial has got it's original feet, if they've been removed then I would say it's probably franken but if they are there then the dial is ok for that case but It probably started out in the type 33 case with crown @ 3...
> 
> I hope all this makes sense :-d and all IMHO of course...





Odessa200 said:


> Agree. This is a later movement. Should be with the dimond.





Odessa200 said:


> Not sure about Raketa. Gilden indexes, chome body, yellow crown, black hands....


Many many thanks for you thoughts guys, really apreciated.

So in conclusion, the Mayak is a super franken watch, movement of one watch, case of another, and dial and hands from another.

About the Vostok, dear Avidfan i dissasembled the watch sometime ago and the feets where on his site, not modded. But maybe is like you say, the dial from a 33 case. Never seen this dial on another vostok.

About the Raketa, i was thinking the same as you Odessa. Gilded indexes and silver case is a bit strange, but i was asking because i see this image on Dashiell website. Do you think is correct?


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Many many thanks for you thoughts guys, really apreciated.
> 
> About the Vostok, dear Avidfan i dissasembled the watch sometime ago and the feets where on his site, not modded. But maybe is like you say, the dial from a 33 case.


If the feet are there then it must be for a case with crown @3 so the type 34 case it's in might be correct or like I said a type 33 with crown @3...it's hard to know for sure as there are no catalogue images for this dial...



Victorv said:


> Never seen this dial on another vostok.


From a quick look on eBay: (item no. 133357734517)


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> About the Raketa, i was thinking the same as you Odessa. Gilded indexes and silver case is a bit strange, but i was asking because i see this image on Dashiell website. Do you think is correct?


This is why I said 'not sure'. Catalog from 1989 has a chrome version that is nicely color coordinated. And somewhat similar gold version. 
Although I could not find the model in question, I could not see any other model exhibiting such color mismatch. Is this the only model from this period that PChZ said 'lets create a color mismatch!' ? Maybe..., but unless we see a catalog or a new watch with labels and passport we will never know.


----------



## Victorv

Avidfan said:


> If the feet are there then it must be for a case with crown @3 so the type 34 case it's in might be correct or like I said a type 33 with crown @3...it's hard to know for sure as there are no catalogue images for this dial...
> 
> From a quick look on eBay: (item no. 133357734517)
> 
> View attachment 15087989


Many many thanks for your help dear Avidfan.

Now i can conclude the same as your first thoughts. The this is not correct with my case.

So grateful, thanks


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> This is why I said 'not sure'. Catalog from 1989 has a chrome version that is nicely color coordinated. And somewhat similar gold version.
> Although I could not find the model in question, I could not see any other model exhibiting such color mismatch. Is this the only model from this period that PChZ said 'lets create a color mismatch!' ? Maybe..., but unless we see a catalog or a new watch with labels and passport we will never know.


Many many thanks dear Odessa.

The truth is that is a rare watch to indentify. That's why i have doubts. So like you said unless we can't see this model in any catalog or with papers i have to think that is a rare Raketa, maybe legit, maybe a a bit franken

So grateful, my friend


----------



## Straight_time

Avidfan said:


> If the feet are there then it must be for a case with crown @3 so the type 34 case it's in might be correct or like I said a type 33 with crown @3...it's hard to know for sure as there are no catalogue images for this dial...
> 
> From a quick look on eBay: (item no. 133357734517)
> 
> View attachment 15087989


I was browsing on eBay for other reason and just stumbled upon this (item 254582725915): 33 case, dial with "Komandirskie" instead of "Vostok".
Who knows, maybe at the factory the "_anything goes_ rule" was in effect :-d


----------



## pj228

I'm not very familiar with these divers, but does this appear to look genuine? It's been a long time since I've been here, and I got bitten by the Soviet watch bug once again.

-edit-

From what I can see, the seconds hand doesn't appear to be original, but the same seconds hand has shown up on image searching. Hard to tell for sure.

Rotor says 23 jewels in English as well, not 23 камня.


----------



## Dodgydruid

Well folks, here is a prime example of someone getting absolutely turned over...

The innocent looking Montine GMT, missing its stems and an absolute evil bugger to get the caseback off but I did and I laughed out loud and trying to work out was this a prop in a tv or film or was this like the mysterious Xbox Ones and PS4's where naughty people have epoxied the correct rear connectors, front USB's etc and when you open it up because it doesn't work find a nice empty space...

Enjoy 









And lets take a lookee inside...









I got to say they did a grand job, looks like some sort of spigot sellotaped in there to attach the hands to, so... I has a nice case, crystal, hands, abs amazing lume on the dial but no ticking or tocking bits...


----------



## Kotsov

At least it’ll be spot on accurate twice a day


----------



## elsoldemayo

pj228 said:


> I'm not very familiar with these divers, but does this appear to look genuine? It's been a long time since I've been here, and I got bitten by the Soviet watch bug once again.
> 
> -edit-
> 
> From what I can see, the seconds hand doesn't appear to be original, but the same seconds hand has shown up on image searching. Hard to tell for sure.
> 
> Rotor says 23 jewels in English as well, not 23 камня.


There is debate on the seconds hand but it's generally accepted the white hand is a legitimate variation, but not with the rectangular tail on the hand in those pics so I do think that one has been swapped. Unless it's a bargain I'd keep hunting for one with the lollipop hand.


----------



## 979greenwich

Yep, for 399,99 $ it's a real bargain 
And Dodgydruid, looks like someone went Delboy on you 
What's next, Yugoslavian riesling? Computers from Mauritius?


----------



## Victorv

pj228 said:


> View attachment 15092615
> 
> View attachment 15092617
> 
> View attachment 15092619
> 
> 
> I'm not very familiar with these divers, but does this appear to look genuine? It's been a long time since I've been here, and I got bitten by the Soviet watch bug once again.
> 
> -edit-
> 
> From what I can see, the seconds hand doesn't appear to be original, but the same seconds hand has shown up on image searching. Hard to tell for sure.
> 
> Rotor says 23 jewels in English as well, not 23 камня.


I think it have a wrong second hand.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> pj228 said:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15092615
> 
> View attachment 15092617
> 
> View attachment 15092619
> 
> 
> I'm not very familiar with these divers, but does this appear to look genuine? It's been a long time since I've been here, and I got bitten by the Soviet watch bug once again.
> 
> -edit-
> 
> From what I can see, the seconds hand doesn't appear to be original, but the same seconds hand has shown up on image searching. Hard to tell for sure.
> 
> Rotor says 23 jewels in English as well, not 23 камня.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it have a wrong second hand.
Click to expand...

I think OP already mentioned it in the edit, but the the rotor is wrong. Should be in Cyrillic for this domestic edition.


----------



## Odessa200

Dodgydruid said:


> Well folks, here is a prime example of someone getting absolutely turned over...
> 
> The innocent looking Montine GMT, missing its stems and an absolute evil bugger to get the caseback off but I did and I laughed out loud and trying to work out was this a prop in a tv or film or was this like the mysterious Xbox Ones and PS4's where naughty people have epoxied the correct rear connectors, front USB's etc and when you open it up because it doesn't work find a nice empty space...
> 
> Enjoy 🙂
> 
> View attachment 15092775
> 
> 
> And lets take a lookee inside...
> 
> View attachment 15092777
> 
> 
> I got to say they did a grand job, looks like some sort of spigot sellotaped in there to attach the hands to, so... I has a nice case, crystal, hands, abs amazing lume on the dial but no ticking or tocking bits...


Where is the question that corresponds to this thread???? Dodgydruid, please stay focused. Lol


----------



## willkerrs

I’m really close to buying this Kirovskie, I just need to know it’s not a terrible Franken. I don’t mind pieces replaced with period types, even if they don’t belong in this watch model.

The glass (well, plastic) has been replaced.


----------



## Straight_time

Unfortunately yes, it's a terrible franken -maybe even worse than that. 

The dial is a modern (fake) remake, and this would be enough already (hint: the cyrillic "Made in USSR" writing at 6 began to appear on watches around the 2nd half of the '50s, so if you find it on supposedly much older examples it's most likely some tourist-grabbing marketing gimmick).
Anyway, had it been genuine, then the style of hands would be incorrect -on a watch made in the 3rd quarter of 1939 you should expect to see the same as your 1941 Kirovskie.

The case (clearly rechromed IMHO, if this is a pro or a con depends on personal tastes) is quite interesting and rather uncommon: notice the logo on the inside of the back, revealing it was made by an artel. Not easy to find such pieces nowadays, pity that the watch (as a whole) isn't at the same level.


----------



## willkerrs

Straight_time said:


> Unfortunately yes, it's a terrible franken -maybe even worse than that.
> 
> The dial is a modern (fake) remake, and this would be enough already (hint: the cyrillic "Made in USSR" writing at 6 began to appear on watches around the 2nd half of the '50s, so if you find it on supposedly much older examples it's most likely some tourist-grabbing marketing gimmick).
> Anyway, had it been genuine, then the style of hands would be incorrect -on a watch made in the 3rd quarter of 1939 you should expect to see the same as your 1941 Kirovskie.
> 
> The case (clearly rechromed IMHO, if this is a pro or a con depends on personal tastes) is quite interesting and rather uncommon: notice the logo on the inside of the back, revealing it was made by an artel. Not easy to find such pieces nowadays, pity that the watch (as a whole) isn't at the same level.


That's a shame. The dial definitely seemed dodgy to me. I figured it had been replaced but didn't know it was a modern fake. Thanks for that info. God, yeah, the hands, too. The more I look at it, the more I wonder what I was thinking!

Well, I'll cross everything off my list that that seller has and keep looking for a 30s / early 40s watch in good enough condition.


----------



## willjackson

*Re: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

Hey F10. 
Looking at this on Ebay and always loved the Antarctic 24 hour Raketas. I can't find a catalogue listing and would love to pick up. Are the hands accurate? Should there be clearer, brighter writing on the dial? Any help would be appreciated.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

willjackson said:


> Hey F10.
> Looking at this on Ebay and always loved the Antarctic 24 hour Raketas. I can't find a catalogue listing and would love to pick up. Are the hands accurate? Should there be clearer, brighter writing on the dial? Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


It is good one. It has original unrestored dial (text is faded on almost all of them). Case is restored (re-gilded). Lume is restored. Crown probably replaced. Movement needs to be fastened to the spacer with 2 screws.

But it think this is a good one for collection.

Here is the catalog.


----------



## willjackson

Odessa200 said:


> It is good one. It has original unrestored dial (text is faded on almost all of them). Case is restored (re-gilded). Lume is restored. Crown probably replaced. Movement needs to be fastened to the spacer with 2 screws.
> 
> But it think this is a good one for collection.
> 
> Here is the catalog.


Thanks Odessa!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Luis965

Here is one with the original text:


----------



## pjd

Is this genuine? Looks too good to be true....
It's another watch I'd rather like in my collection.....
Is this variant exactly the same as a Poljot Deluxe, just with a different dial?


----------



## Odessa200

pjd said:


> Is this genuine? Looks too good to be true....
> It's another watch I'd rather like in my collection.....
> Is this variant exactly the same as a Poljot Deluxe, just with a different dial?


Fake on many levels. Primary the fake dial is the main issue. Then the crown, then the refinished case, etc. pass on it.


----------



## pjd

Thank you. I didn't buy it.
I thought something was wrong.


----------



## StephenR

Hi all, I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread! I used to have a beautiful, silver dialed Pobeda Zim which I regret selling, so I've been casually looking for something to take its place. I'm being tempted by this interesting Svet, but would really appreciate some input into its age/condition/authenticity/value etc. I've seen a couple others with this dial pattern on the forum, but never accompanied with much detail, so any insight would be most appreciated.


----------



## Dodgydruid

That is a lovely textured dial. Not knowing much about this particular brand of watches I would imagine the Chinese not taking the time to include such detail in a knocked off piece, if the movement checks out the right type etc then likely someone has cleaned the dial and reapplied paints and if that is the case some care done in the doing of. Looking at the texture work and the numeral paints, the almost hair thin logo application, it is a very nice dial imho, the hands are spotless and the paint colours matching the second hand perfectly.

Is there something in your view that is making your spidey sense a little uneasy? I have had that a few times in my own pursuits and dodged bullets, if your gut instinct is ringing a bell might be worth waiting for the next one round but I wouldn't be ashamed of this on my wrist.


----------



## Odessa200

StephenR said:


> Hi all, I'm so glad I stumbled across this thread! I used to have a beautiful, silver dialed Pobeda Zim which I regret selling, so I've been casually looking for something to take its place. I'm being tempted by this interesting Svet, but would really appreciate some input into its age/condition/authenticity/value etc. I've seen a couple others with this dial pattern on the forum, but never accompanied with much detail, so any insight would be most appreciated.


Hi. Dial and hands are all good. Real. The numbers on this dial are not painted. They are raised and gilded. All good here.

Crown replaced. Wrong back cover.

The movement seems right but you need to upload better photos. Loos like it has 2605 while the Svet is 2603. Maybe just bad image quality. 
Is this an aluminum case? Svet is in chromed bras cases. I hope this helps. Maybe just funny lighting conditions. Again: better photos would help.

Value: under 50$.


----------



## fla

The movement is 2603, PChZ logo is visible, they didn't produce 2605.

I have some similar Svets with the same case backs and consider them as original ones, don't know, maybe I am wrong. 

For me all is okay, apart from the crown.


----------



## StephenR

Dodgydruid said:


> Is there something in your view that is making your spidey sense a little uneasy? I have had that a few times in my own pursuits and dodged bullets, if your gut instinct is ringing a bell might be worth waiting for the next one round but I wouldn't be ashamed of this on my wrist.


Thanks for your thoughts. No, no bells being rung here, just pure ignorance on my part. I don't know much about these watches, I bought (and overpaid!) my old Zim on a whim, but enjoyed my time with it all the same.



Odessa200 said:


> Hi. Dial and hands are all good. Real. The numbers on this dial are not painted. They are raised and gilded. All good here.
> 
> Crown replaced. Wrong back cover.
> 
> The movement seems right but you need to upload better photos. Loos like it has 2605 while the Svet is 2603. Maybe just bad image quality.
> Is this an aluminum case? Svet is in chromed bras cases. I hope this helps. Maybe just funny lighting conditions. Again: better photos would help.
> 
> Value: under 50$.


Thanks for the insights, unfortunately these are the best photos I've got of this one. I had wondered whether the crown was wrong, not through any knowledge, just that it doesn't quite fit aesthetically, a bit too big/chunky perhaps? Given the small amount of oxidisation I wouldn't imagine the case is aluminium. It looks quite similar to my old Zim which was chrome plated brass.



fla said:


> The movement is 2603, PChZ logo is visible, they didn't produce 2605.
> 
> I have some similar Svets with the same case backs and consider them as original ones, don't know, maybe I am wrong.
> 
> For me all is okay, apart from the crown.


Again, thanks for the reassuring comments. Any hints as to the approximate age range of this model? As to value, with postage from Ukraine it'll come close to $50USD ($70-$80 AUD with the current exchange rate!), that's probably the only thing keeping me on the fence...


----------



## StephenR

*Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

Dup


----------



## Odessa200

Ot was made in the 60s. Cheers.



StephenR said:


> Dodgydruid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there something in your view that is making your spidey sense a little uneasy? I have had that a few times in my own pursuits and dodged bullets, if your gut instinct is ringing a bell might be worth waiting for the next one round but I wouldn't be ashamed of this on my wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts. No, no bells being rung here, just pure ignorance on my part. I don't know much about these watches, I bought (and overpaid!) my old Zim on a whim, but enjoyed my time with it all the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi. Dial and hands are all good. Real. The numbers on this dial are not painted. They are raised and gilded. All good here.
> 
> Crown replaced. Wrong back cover.
> 
> The movement seems right but you need to upload better photos. Loos like it has 2605 while the Svet is 2603. Maybe just bad image quality.
> Is this an aluminum case? Svet is in chromed bras cases. I hope this helps. Maybe just funny lighting conditions. Again: better photos would help.
> 
> Value: under 50$.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the insights, unfortunately these are the best photos I've got of this one. I had wondered whether the crown was wrong, not through any knowledge, just that it doesn't quite fit aesthetically, a bit too big/chunky perhaps? Given the small amount of oxidisation I wouldn't imagine the case is aluminium. It looks quite similar to my old Zim which was chrome plated brass.
> 
> 
> 
> fla said:
> 
> 
> 
> The movement is 2603, PChZ logo is visible, they didn't produce 2605.
> 
> I have some similar Svets with the same case backs and consider them as original ones, don't know, maybe I am wrong.
> 
> For me all is okay, apart from the crown.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, thanks for the reassuring comments. Any hints as to the approximate age range of this model? As to value, with postage from Ukraine it'll come close to $50USD ($70-$80 AUD with the current exchange rate!), that's probably the only thing keeping me on the fence...
Click to expand...


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Can anyone verify this Raketa Puck/UFO? On a side note, I don't understand why soviet watches would have "Made in USSR" in English on the dial but I've seen it on quite a few models claiming to be from the 1980's. Could someone enlighten me?


----------



## Chascomm

Vin Ordinaire said:


> On a side note, I don't understand why soviet watches would have "Made in USSR" in English on the dial


Presumably because that is its country-of-origin, just like 'Made in Japan' or Swiss made'. On this watch, the branding is in the Roman alphabet ('Raketa') so 'Made in USSR' in English is consistent. If the brand was 'Ракета' then the country of origin marking would be 'Сделано в СССР.


----------



## Ole Juul

Vin Ordinaire said:


> On a side note, I don't understand why soviet watches would have "Made in USSR" in English on the dial but I've seen it on quite a few models claiming to be from the 1980's. Could someone enlighten me?


Half the production was for export so "Made in USSR" was the right thing - in fact Cyrillic would not have looked good in many countries. Also, I've heard that some Russians liked the English text as something special in those times.


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Ole Juul said:


> Half the production was for export so "Made in USSR" was the right thing - in fact Cyrillic would not have looked good in many countries. Also, I've heard that some Russians liked the English text as something special in those times.


Thanks! I hadn't really considered the export market or appreciated that it was significant. Does anything look off about the watch to you?


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Ole Juul said:


> Half the production was for export so "Made in USSR" was the right thing - in fact Cyrillic would not have looked good in many countries. Also, I've heard that some Russians liked the English text as something special in those times.


Thanks! I hadn't really considered the export market or appreciated that it was significant. Does anything look off about the watch to you?


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Chascomm said:


> Presumably because that is its country-of-origin, just like 'Made in Japan' or Swiss made'. On this watch, the branding is in the Roman alphabet ('Raketa') so 'Made in USSR' in English is consistent. If the brand was 'Ракета' then the country of origin marking would be 'Сделано в СССР.


Thanks, Chascomm! I appreciate the explanation. Given your expertise, does the watch look right to you? And what do you think of the 2069HA movement?


----------



## Ole Juul

Vin Ordinaire said:


> Thanks! I hadn't really considered the export market or appreciated that it was significant. Does anything look off about the watch to you?


Yes, Russia was a MAJOR exporter of watches on the world market. It may have been the biggest at one point.

As for anything looking off, I'm not the one to ask. I'm quite new, very far from an expert, and generally shouldn't be answering questions in this thread. I'm sure one of our real experts will come along.


----------



## Odessa200

Vin Ordinaire said:


> Chascomm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Presumably because that is its country-of-origin, just like 'Made in Japan' or Swiss made'. On this watch, the branding is in the Roman alphabet ('Raketa') so 'Made in USSR' in English is consistent. If the brand was 'Ракета' then the country of origin marking would be 'Сделано в СССР.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Chascomm! I appreciate the explanation. Given your expertise, does the watch look right to you? And what do you think of the 2069HA movement?
Click to expand...

The watch looks fine. Its 2609HA movement (not 2069). All looks good to me.


----------



## Djokit

Hello comrades, looking at Raketa Calendars, there are two types of dial: one with golden markers and one with roman numerals.
The ones with roman numerals are nice, but I see small differences and I'm not sure if there's signs of fake dials.
The lines of the calendars run through the "Cdelano v CCCR" writing at the bottom. In some cases, the lines have holes so as not to cross the writing. In other cases, they go through the letters.




















What I've gathered so far is:
-Dials with english writing ("Made in USSR") always have the lines going through the text.
-It seems the white and blue dials always habe the lines going through because they're light cyan and white respectively, so the black writing is not made harder to read.
-The copper-coloured dial has black lines and black letters, some have the lines going through, some don't. A small difference indeed, but I'm worried one is a sign the dial is fake.


----------



## Odessa200

Djokit said:


> Hello comrades, looking at Raketa Calendars, there are two types of dial: one with golden markers and one with roman numerals.
> The ones with roman numerals are nice, but I see small differences and I'm not sure if there's signs of fake dials.
> The lines of the calendars run through the "Cdelano v CCCR" writing at the bottom. In some cases, the lines have holes so as not to cross the writing. In other cases, they go through the letters.
> View attachment 15179075
> View attachment 15179079
> View attachment 15179083
> 
> 
> What I've gathered so far is:
> -Dials with english writing ("Made in USSR") always have the lines going through the text.
> -It seems the white and blue dials always habe the lines going through because they're light cyan and white respectively, so the black writing is not made harder to read.
> -The copper-coloured dial has black lines and black letters, some have the lines going through, some don't. A small difference indeed, but I'm worried one is a sign the dial is fake.


Interesting observation. I would assume both variants are legit and can be attributed to the variations in dial printing as you described (some colors, even when overlap still quite easy to read and some harder).


----------



## Kamburov

Djokit said:


> Hello comrades, looking at Raketa Calendars, there are two types of dial: one with golden markers and one with roman numerals.
> The ones with roman numerals are nice, but I see small differences and I'm not sure if there's signs of fake dials.
> The lines of the calendars run through the "Cdelano v CCCR" writing at the bottom. In some cases, the lines have holes so as not to cross the writing. In other cases, they go through the letters.
> View attachment 15179075
> View attachment 15179079
> View attachment 15179083
> 
> 
> What I've gathered so far is:
> -Dials with english writing ("Made in USSR") always have the lines going through the text.
> -It seems the white and blue dials always habe the lines going through because they're light cyan and white respectively, so the black writing is not made harder to read.
> -The copper-coloured dial has black lines and black letters, some have the lines going through, some don't. A small difference indeed, but I'm worried one is a sign the dial is fake.


Good observation. I think this technical issue in the printing process rather than design issue. When the lines overlap the letters, lines and letters are on different print matrix, which allows calendar to be printed in one colour, "made in ussr" in different (the colour of numerals, black or white, depending on background). They can change calendar colours, without changing the other print. The cases where "made in ussr" is in a gap, both are on the same print matrix, so they are designed as one graphic, always meant to be in the same colour. It's a process optimisation, where everything is printed on one machine, in one go. In the expence of colour variations.
Hope that makes sense.
Ivan


----------



## Djokit

Interesting, but then why, on the copper-colourd dial, are there two versions, with the line across and without?
It could either be an oversight for a reprinted dial (and most of those I've seen with the line across seem to be in better condition than those with the gap), or is it that they change the way it was printed to make it easier?


----------



## Kamburov

Djokit said:


> Interesting, but then why, on the copper-colourd dial, are there two versions, with the line across and without?
> It could either be an oversight for a reprinted dial (and most of those I've seen with the line across seem to be in better condition than those with the gap), or is it that they change the way it was printed to make it easier?


Could be. I have no secret knowledge, like you I'm just guessing. I bet even people working at Raketa back then (some browsing in this forum) won't remember such trivial things as changing something in the dial printing process. So I'll elaborate on it. There were a lot of things happening in the factory back then. It was producing tens of different models and designs at any given time, and on top of that many institutional and private orders, comemmorative watches and other stuff. And that's just the mechanical wristwaches division. There's also quartz, alarm clocks, instruments and I don't know what else. That's always resetting machines for the production of this or that. In the middle of this is the calendar model, originally designed in two colours - one for calendar, another for numbers, logotype and "made in...". Dial goes in one machine, one colour, then the other to get the other print on top. At some point Raketa makes a design that is all black print, and someone says "Wait, we can't use two machines to do one print! Redesign the print for one machine, we need the other to print watches for Victory Day." So next week the watch goes out the factory slightly different. 
Once we were arguing here about two big zeros, which one is fake, because there was a slight difference in the print. Finally someone asked Alexandr Brodnikovskii which one is fake, he said they're both good. But why are they different? I remember his answer was something like "This model was produced over a long period of time, so during that time matrixes get worn out, machines get serviced and recalibrated, designs get redrawn, a lot of stuff happens." So slight differences in the same model are not that unusual.
Just more stuff for us maniacs to collect


----------



## Jeroenskie

Hi all, 

I found this Sturmanskie 31659 on a local auction site. It seems to be in good shape, may be too good? As far as I can see it looks original, it has the steel case etc. Wat do you all think?

Also, what would be a decent price for this watch?


----------



## schnurrp

Jeroenskie said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I found this Sturmanskie 31659 on a local auction site. It seems to be in good shape, may be too good? As far as I can see it looks original, it has the steel case etc. Wat do you all think?
> 
> Also, what would be a decent price for this watch?


Looks good but I think it's been re-lumed. The dots at 3-6-9 are usually smaller than that and very neat. Also the main dot on the bezel should cover the circumference of the circle beneath. I don't know what they're going for now....$300-$400?


----------



## Jeroenskie

schnurrp said:


> Looks good but I think it's been re-lumed. The dots at 3-6-9 are usually smaller than that and very neat. Also the main dot on the bezel should cover the circumference of the circle beneath. I don't know what they're going for now....$300-$400?


Thanks! Did not notice the possible relume job.

I just searched a bit on Ebay and found several 31659's with mint dials and lume that seem a bit off (see photo's attached of a few I found). Do you think these could all be fake dials (including the one I posted first)? It just seems strange to me that almost all of the 31659's offered are in almost new condition.


----------



## Wuubs

I'm wondering what you guys think about this Gagarin. I did some research here about these watches and after digging through watches for a few weeks think I might have found a legit one. This one should be a 15 jewel model.

The guy I bought it from claimed that the movement had the date misstamped on it. A 1-51 is stamped over the 1-50. The 1-51 made sense to me because of the striping on the movement that started in 1951 (if I'm remembering correctly). The serial is also 5 digits which seems to be correct for 15 jewels.

The hands and crown look to be the correct design, as well as the hand lengths. I also think I can see the little u shaped spring that allows hacking just above the balance wheel.

I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't know what I'm talking about, I'm just getting into this. Do you guys think it's a fake?


----------



## Wuubs

I'm wondering what you guys think about this Gagarin. I did some research here about these watches and after digging through watches for a few weeks think I might have found a legit one. This one should be a 15 jewel model.

The guy I bought it from claimed that the movement had the date misstamped on it. A 1-51 is stamped over the 1-50. The 1-51 made sense to me because of the striping on the movement that started in 1951 (if I'm remembering correctly). The serial is also 5 digits which seems to be correct for 15 jewels.

The hands and crown look to be the correct design, as well as the hand lengths. I also think I can see the little u shaped spring that allows hacking just above the balance wheel.

I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't know what I'm talking about, I'm just getting into this. Do you guys think it's a fake?

View attachment 15186713

View attachment 15186715


----------



## Odessa200

Wuubs said:


> I'm wondering what you guys think about this Gagarin. I did some research here about these watches and after digging through watches for a few weeks think I might have found a legit one. This one should be a 15 jewel model.
> 
> The guy I bought it from claimed that the movement had the date misstamped on it. A 1-51 is stamped over the 1-50. The 1-51 made sense to me because of the striping on the movement that started in 1951 (if I'm remembering correctly). The serial is also 5 digits which seems to be correct for 15 jewels.
> 
> The hands and crown look to be the correct design, as well as the hand lengths. I also think I can see the little u shaped spring that allows hacking just above the balance wheel.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't know what I'm talking about, I'm just getting into this. Do you guys think it's a fake?
> 
> View attachment 15186713
> 
> View attachment 15186715


Hello.
The watch looks good to me. I am a bit surprised to see a mis-stamped movement and not sure if that alone would make the watch fail the military QC (maybe not). But other than that all is good.


----------



## Wuubs

Odessa200 said:


> Hello.
> The watch looks good to me. I am a bit surprised to see a mis-stamped movement and not sure if that alone would make the watch fail the military QC (maybe not). But other than that all is good.


Thanks for the reply and reassurance!


----------



## jimzilla

Hey comrades I hope all are safe and playing with our watches. I had a couple of specimens cone in and I am In need of authentication.
So I implore our esteemed panel of experts for their opinions. Thank you very much in advance for your efforts, best regards, Jimzilla.
First up is a #53 Case in Chrome.


----------



## jimzilla

Next up Is a green tank watch, Let me know what you think..... thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Hey comrades I hope all are safe and playing with our watches. I had a couple of specimens cone in and I am In need of authentication.
> So I implore our esteemed panel of experts for their opinions. Thank you very much in advance for your efforts, best regards, Jimzilla.
> First up is a #53 Case in Chrome.


Good watch. Passport does not belong to it. Number does not match and most importantly this is not the 311...case.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hey comrades I hope all are safe and playing with our watches. I had a couple of specimens cone in and I am In need of authentication.
> So I implore our esteemed panel of experts for their opinions. Thank you very much in advance for your efforts, best regards, Jimzilla.
> First up is a #53 Case in Chrome.


The watch is good :-!, the case is an interesting variant with the notch for the case back cut at 6 on the case so the back will only go on upside down, the back is also unusual with the extra "Made in the USSR" stamping so probably for export, the papers are for a green tankist and nothing to do with the watch...


----------



## Kamburov

Cool condition watches! On first glance you can notice both papers are for the same model 331507, so that can't be right. Good news is that the model number corresponds for the second (tank) komandirskie








so that one corresponds. What about the star Generalskie?
There's the catalogue number








So the verdict is - good watches, but only the second one has matching papers.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Next up Is a green tank watch, Let me know what you think..... thank you.


Green tankist is also good :-! and with the correct matching passport...


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Next up Is a green tank watch, Let me know what you think..... thank you.


I think the crown is replaced. And that begs a question: why would you replace a crown on a new watch?.... or maybe they made with these crowns as well. Lets see what the experts say.


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> I think the crown is replaced. And that begs a question: why would you replace a crown on a new watch?.... or maybe they made with these crowns as well. Lets see what the experts say.


Flat or domed are both correct for either of these...


----------



## Kamburov

I think both have the same domed, chromed dirskie crowns. They both look good for watches produced in transition 92. Not my cup of tea, but still good watches. Good eye for detail from Avidfan, the generalskie looks like it's export order (Italy, Germany, whatever). 
It seems it's a price negotiation time  Good luck!


----------



## jimzilla

Kamburov said:


> I think both have the same domed, chromed dirskie crowns. They both look good for watches produced in transition 92. Not my cup of tea, but still good watches. Good eye for detail from Avidfan, the generalskie looks like it's export order (Italy, Germany, whatever).
> It seems it's a price negotiation time  Good luck!


Avidfan has an eagle eye and "Rattelsnake" quick reactions when it comes to Russian watches...... :-!


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you all, best regards, James.


----------



## Wazowie

Hey is this an original pobeda red 12?


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15197711
> 
> View attachment 15197713
> 
> Hey is this an original pobeda red 12?


Nope. Too many issues...


----------



## Montykun

Hi everyone, what's your opinion about this Raketa?


----------



## Odessa200

Montykun said:


> Hi everyone, what's your opinion about this Raketa?
> 
> View attachment 15198181
> 
> View attachment 15198185


Looks good to me


----------



## Dodgydruid

Odessa200 said:


> I think the crown is replaced. And that begs a question: why would you replace a crown on a new watch?.... or maybe they made with these crowns as well. Lets see what the experts say.


Both my rounded squares as I call 'em have the steel looking crown, still trying to extract a crown tube for my Zakas submariner and beginning to think maybe it would be expedient to ahem franken it a bit and move the stem position to the 3 mark and shove it into one of many pristine cases.

I do like the rubber strap on the lower pics, haven't seen one of them and I would assume most of has turned to mush with age.


----------



## Krautir

I came across a Raketa Big Zero with papers. The watch looks legit to me with my newbie eyes (case, hands, dial, movement), but I wanted to see if the folks here could verify that. Also curious whether the papers shown actually go with the watch. As I have noted others in these threads say, it's easier to fake papers than a watch. So does this all check out? If it does, his price still seems way high to me based on my research, but I can always try to negotiate that. Thanks in advance for the assistance!


----------



## Kamburov

Chromed big zero is 511632.
Ivan


----------



## haha

And this is a 511870


----------



## Krautir

Kamburov said:


> Chromed big zero is 511632.
> Ivan





haha said:


> And this is a 511870
> 
> View attachment 15198763


Thank you both very much for confirming my suspicions!


----------



## Eric M

Spotted something interesting on the bay. Is this a known/legitimate thing?









Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


----------



## Krautir

Krautir said:


> I came across a Raketa Big Zero with papers. The watch looks legit to me with my newbie eyes (case, hands, dial, movement), but I wanted to see if the folks here could verify that. Also curious whether the papers shown actually go with the watch. As I have noted others in these threads say, it's easier to fake papers than a watch. So does this all check out? If it does, his price still seems way high to me based on my research, but I can always try to negotiate that. Thanks in advance for the assistance!
> View attachment 15198393
> View attachment 15198395
> View attachment 15198393
> View attachment 15198399


Ivan and haha provided some excellent information that the paperwork doesn't match the watch on this one, but we have a twist. The seller claims they received a box of 10 of these still factory sealed with pictures (attached to this post) and they date to the transition time from USSR to Russia. Does this information or the pictures change anything?

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## fla

Krautir said:


> Ivan and haha provided some excellent information that the paperwork doesn't match the watch on this one, but we have a twist. The seller claims they received a box of 10 of these still factory sealed with pictures (attached to this post) and they date to the transition time from USSR to Russia. Does this information or the pictures change anything?
> View attachment 15199531


It doesn't. In the 1992 catalogue it's listed as 05111632, in the 1989 one as 516632. Anyway, 632 means type of the dial and hands, namely - 'classic' big zero.


----------



## Krautir

fla said:


> Krautir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ivan and haha provided some excellent information that the paperwork doesn't match the watch on this one, but we have a twist. The seller claims they received a box of 10 of these still factory sealed with pictures (attached to this post) and they date to the transition time from USSR to Russia. Does this information or the pictures change anything?
> 
> View attachment 15199531
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't. In the 1992 catalogue it's listed as 05111632, in the 1989 one as 516632. Anyway, 632 means type of the dial and hands, namely - 'classic' big zero.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that fla! I appreciate the explanation of the coding of the reference numbers. I also just want to thank everyone in this forum for how helpful and welcoming everyone is.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I hope all is well and all are healthy. I had a watch come in that needs authentication by our experts.
The bezel looks painted over to me? the dial face is actually in pretty good shape, anyway your opinions are appreciated as always, thank you in advance guys. best regards, jimzilla.


----------



## Dodgydruid

The dial looks like an original dark blue sun bleached, the bezels usually have red and black sections but yours looks like someone has replaced the paint with just one colour... but that is not a set in stone, one bezel I had I thought was missing the red segments so red painted them in then found it was a black and unpainted section bezel so felt a bit of a lemon having to IPA the paint out the crevices lol

I am thinking your bezel is likely a new one as no signs of the usual brassing on the wearing edges, it could even be chrome powdercoated as the modern chrome powdercoats are actually quite stunning looking if done right but you will have to ascertain whether it is a paint, powdercoat or a good one just missing its red segments and red top spot.


----------



## mariomart

To me it looks like your bezel has accumulated quite a lot of biological material in the recessed areas that is in turn obfuscating the original paint. It needs a soak in mild detergent and a gentle brushing with a soft toothbrush.


----------



## Dodgydruid

I have seen several Amphibia's with the all black paintwork, if one of the kind chaps who could show the catalogue listing could identify whether its a red and black or a black and black it could mean you can give it a really good clean and change two of the segments into red ones if that is the correct configuration or keep them black.

Beware IPA, the 99% stuff erases paint quite effectively so as suggested a gentle detergent with a soft brush and lave it out with warm water and pat dry with a microfibre towel. Use a case knife or a masking taped normal cutlery knife to pop the bezel off by getting it under the ridge, the masking tape will prevent scratches etc.

TBH if any of my brassed chrome bezels looked as good as yours m8 I would be quite happy, all of my Soviet ones have the brassing on the edges where the chrome has worn through and not easily fixed without access to an electroplating bath and chrome ones are pretty horrible things to work with lol


----------



## mariomart

Dodgydruid said:


> I have seen several Amphibia's with the all black paintwork, if one of the kind chaps who could show the catalogue listing could identify whether its a red and black or a black and black it could mean you can give it a really good clean and change two of the segments into red ones if that is the correct configuration or keep them black.


If you have a closer look at the photo of the bezel you can see the underlying red paint.


----------



## Rolexoman

Here is my first, I've had it less than a week and still waiting on a strap form Barton to get here, Mail is sloooooow, anyway the seller said he purchased new in 91' and never wore, papers don't match watch but it looked brand new so who knows.

So far after my poor boy regulation I am at -4/5 SPD with dial up so need to wear to get an idea on where it will run, would love to know more about this particular piece, I know there were apparently lots of different Komandirskie models made, I have never cracked open a watch until this one......well replaced batteries is watches back in the 80's but that's it

As I said papers don't match the watch so not sure of model numbers or name other than Komandirskie but I have seen lots of different dials so were they named or were it just dials at random


----------



## Dodgydruid

Rolexoman said:


> Here is my first, I've had it less than a week and still waiting on a strap form Barton to get here, Mail is sloooooow, anyway the seller said he purchased new in 91' and never wore, papers don't match watch but it looked brand new so who knows.
> 
> So far after my poor boy regulation I am at -4/5 SPD with dial up so need to wear to get an idea on where it will run, would love to know more about this particular piece, I know there were apparently lots of different Komandirskie models made, I have never cracked open a watch until this one......well replaced batteries is watches back in the 80's but that's it
> 
> As I said papers don't match the watch so not sure of model numbers or name other than Komandirskie but I have seen lots of different dials so were they named or were it just dials at random
> 
> View attachment 15209521
> 
> View attachment 15209523
> 
> View attachment 15209525
> 
> View attachment 15209529


Its a clean piece indeed, not been worn much as the TiN plating isn't the most robust and no signs of pitting from mangunge and sweat, clean lines and an unusual dial in its lacking the usual motif of something military but overall condition does suggest an unworn watch but from what period, is it a true Soviet or a redial onto a newer Komandirskie?

Quite ironic in I have just purchased the roundy square case in TiN same as yours for my Zakas MO submariner lacking finding the correct chromed brass out there, with the upper quadrant stem can be quite tricky and I wasn't going to pull apart my Admiralskie for the Zakas as the Admiralskie I have aka Black Sea one so I was told, is in as good nick as your one there and poor economy to take apart a pristine watch.

4-5 secs a day is quite tolerable, you can nail it down over time or with a timegrapher to almost perfect a day but you might end up chasing your tail a bit. Do be prepared for as time goes on a degradation of timekeeping as all the oils and greases inside are likely aged if its never been serviced since 91. You might be lucky if storing was correct but I would look into down the road just having it oil serviced and it will last you many years of good service.


----------



## Dodgydruid

mariomart said:


> If you have a closer look at the photo of the bezel you can see the underlying red paint.
> 
> View attachment 15209517


Man, you have superhero sight there, I totally missed that


----------



## Chascomm

Eric M said:


> Spotted something interesting on the bay. Is this a known/legitimate thing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


Everything on that watch looks authentically Vostok to my eyes, and I don't recall ever seeing another like it.


----------



## Dodgydruid

That is seriously unusual with the 12 o clock winder, with the swing lugs and quite stylish dial going on there.

Was going through the Amphibia's earlier and trust me folks, searching ebay for Vostok Amphibia, used, worldwide will bring you many listings of the good, the bad and the ugly and quite frightening prices for some real frankenworks but some gems too but the prices are climbing and I am considering selling my first amphibia blue to white octa because the prices right now are crazy then I think its a perfect time keeper and it was my first serious Vostok and back into its display case place it goes hehe

Am on a hiatus buying watches as I have about 20 projects to work on or repair, time to take my Stadium off and put on my mildly frankened KVPO (I admit it, I put it into a 060 case but in my opinion the 060 looks way cooler than the octa but I have the octa case put aside so I can unfranken it at any time)


----------



## Avidfan

Eric M said:


> Spotted something interesting on the bay. Is this a known/legitimate thing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my LG-LS998 using Tapatalk


I would want to see the edge of the case @ 3 o'clock to see if the hole for the crown tube has been filled, if it has then it's just another franken spoiling an original 350 case IMHO


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> I would want to see the edge of the case @ 3 o'clock to see if the hole for the crown tube has been filled, if it has then it's just another franken spoiling an original 350 case IMHO


I'm in agreeance with you, I suspect a modified 350. It's quite easy to fill and re-polish the area of the case where the crown would have been and leave it indistinguishable. The movement would be quite happy to work in the new position and it also does not affect the date window, just the dial would need dial dots or the legs re-positioned (also en easy task with the right equipment)


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> I'm in agreeance with you, I suspect a modified 350. It's quite easy to fill and re-polish the area of the case where the crown would have been and leave it indistinguishable. The movement would be quite happy to work in the new position and it also does not affect the date window, just the dial would need dial dots or the legs re-positioned (also en easy task with the right equipment)


Having another look at this 350? case I notice that the case has only one notch cut in it for the caseback tab(s), every other 350 I recall has 2 notches on the case and 2 tabs on the caseback, so I'm not too sure what it is now :-s:-d


----------



## Chascomm

I will point out that it looks like a single-tab case back


----------



## jimzilla

mariomart said:


> To me it looks like your bezel has accumulated quite a lot of biological material in the recessed areas that is in turn obfuscating the original paint. It needs a soak in mild detergent and a gentle brushing with a soft toothbrush.


Hello mariomart I hope you are doing well sir and staying healthy. ... obfuscating? I am going to have to look that up we Americans are a simple lot. ;-) 
Yes I did notice the red under the black. I am in the process of moving so when I get set back in the new place I will have to soak it. best regards mario.


----------



## jimzilla

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I hope all is well and all are healthy. I had a watch come in that needs authentication by our experts.
> The bezel looks painted over to me? the dial face is actually in pretty good shape, anyway your opinions are appreciated as always, thank you in advance guys. best regards, jimzilla.


So the paperwork Is correct for this watch?


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> jimzilla said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello comrades, I hope all is well and all are healthy. I had a watch come in that needs authentication by our experts.
> The bezel looks painted over to me? the dial face is actually in pretty good shape, anyway your opinions are appreciated as always, thank you in advance guys. best regards, jimzilla.
> 
> 
> 
> So the paperwork Is correct for this watch?
Click to expand...

I would be Surprised. This is a late USSR watch but the papers were printed for 198x year....


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> So the paperwork Is correct for this watch?


This watch is probably from 1989-1990, check the watch serial number on the passport (often written in ballpoint pen) against the serial number stamped on the watch caseback.

And Vostok are well known for using up old passports until they're gone... (remember your 1945-1995 Victory Komandirskie from March 1995 with papers printed in 1990...) ;-)


----------



## Straight_time

error


----------



## Kotsov

Straight_time said:


> error


Dalek


----------



## Kotsov

Kotsov said:


> Dalek


Exterminate


----------



## bobski

Hi all

It has been quite a while since I have searched for Soviet/Russian watches, but I find myself back here!

I am interested in this, but I am curious as to whether it is a redial. Also, have the hands have been painted?

Any insight would be much appreciate, thanks in advance.


----------



## Dodgydruid

You can see matter from underside the second hand, like someone didn't clean a hand properly before painting and leaving a tiny trace of detritus but that could also be camera artefact.

What does the lettering at bottom say? I am a fan of this dial design with the cut grooves for the markers but never seem to see these come up that often.


----------



## Chascomm

Avidfan said:


> Having another look at this 350? case I notice that the case has only one notch cut in it for the caseback tab(s), every other 350 I recall has 2 notches on the case and 2 tabs on the caseback, so I'm not too sure what it is now :-s:-d


The case edge is so tight around the case back ring, that there is not much metal to accomodate both a notch and a crown tube in the same location. This might be an argument in favour of it being designed this way rather than modified.


----------



## mariomart

Chascomm said:


> The case edge is so tight around the case back ring, that there is not much metal to accomodate both a notch and a crown tube in the same location. This might be an argument in favour of it being designed this way rather than modified.


Good point, perhaps it was a factory prototype.

I think IMHO the positioning of the crown and the use of a swing lug would have made for a very impractical winding and time setting operation, necessitating the watch to be off the wrist for such operations.

However, I would welcome a "Unicorn Head" Amphibia with open arms into my collection ;-)


----------



## Avidfan

Chascomm said:


> The case edge is so tight around the case back ring, that there is not much metal to accomodate both a notch and a crown tube in the same location. This might be an argument in favour of it being designed this way rather than modified.


Perhaps this is an unfinished 350 case on which the caseback notches or crown tube hole hadn't yet been cut :think: and then customized by someone who had access to unfinished factory parts :think:

I think it will remain a mystery :-d


----------



## rokman

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*

Hello comrades, I need a little help from the experts. What do you think about this strela. Legit or Franken?
The case isn't in very good shape but I was thinking that if I buy it maybe later I could restore the case, replate it or something.
Any pointers are welcome. Thanks for any input.


----------



## Kamburov

bobski said:


> Hi all
> 
> It has been quite a while since I have searched for Soviet/Russian watches, but I find myself back here!
> 
> I am interested in this, but I am curious as to whether it is a redial. Also, have the hands have been painted?
> 
> Any insight would be much appreciate, thanks in advance.


Don't know about the hands, comrade, but the dial is a new fake.

About the unicorn amfibia - I don't like this particular dial or bezel, but whatever the case is with this experiment, it's a propper professional job on the case/bracelet. Might be an unapproved prototype design, but I too would have one in my collection.


----------



## Odessa200

rokman said:


> Hello comrades, I need a little help from the experts. What do you think about this strela. Legit or Franken?
> The case isn't in very good shape but I was thinking that if I buy it maybe later I could restore the case, replate it or something.
> Any pointers are welcome. Thanks for any input.


Looks good to me. Hands are re-lumed and re-painted in my opinion. Please wait for others to opine as well.


----------



## Dodgydruid

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



rokman said:


> Hello comrades, I need a little help from the experts. What do you think about this strela. Legit or Franken?
> The case isn't in very good shape but I was thinking that if I buy it maybe later I could restore the case, replate it or something.
> Any pointers are welcome. Thanks for any input.


I would say that is a bona fide one save the hands look like they been painted with a sharpie hehe but could be camera light etc.

It is the Sekonda version of this particular watch I am aspiring for as my grail of grails with the black dial as the Sekonda branded ones seem less common and I am a passionate Sekonda fan/collector adding three mechanicals recently but nothing as cool as this one


----------



## Straight_time

rokman said:


> Hello comrades, I need a little help from the experts. What do you think about this strela. Legit or Franken?
> The case isn't in very good shape but I was thinking that if I buy it maybe later I could restore the case, replate it or something.
> Any pointers are welcome. Thanks for any input.


I don't think hands have been touched up nor repainted -anybody able to do such a professional job and perfectly match the original green color would have surely done the same to the hour dots of the dial, which look faded with age and exposure to light instead. Most likely original hands had some main issue (e.g. rust or severe discoloration) and have been replaced with a NOS set -believe it or not, they can still be found if you look around hard enough. It's up to you to decide if the mismatch between the two shades bothers you or not.

The case is not-so-perfect on the hidden side, but seen from above it looks quite acceptable. 
I had an unsatisfactory experience trying to have one of them restored: to erase the deeper scratches it was stripped down too much, so after rechroming the edges weren't as sharp as they should have been anymore; in addition, the original brushing on the sides is quite difficult to replicate, so personally I would not recommend such practice... take it or leave it.

I seem to see the Poljot Crown logo under the balance wheel, if so IMHO the whole movement is consistent with the rest of the watch.

The dial close-up photo shows a series of marks, going horizontally just under the center pinion; I'd ask the seller to clarify if it's a superficial scratch on the crystal (zero problems, as it can be polished to perfection). If yes, and if the price is right, I would consider it as a serious candidate for a purchase. Of course, if the dial is compromised instead, that would be a deal breaker.


----------



## Dodgydruid

I do think allowances need to be made for pieces that are 40 odd years or more, unless they have been in a cocoon in some air condition bank vault outside of the ravages of human gunges and sunlight, knocks and stuff, for me a watch that has signs of good honest wear helps appreciate its ruggedness and this one again highlights the pure harder than the soviet hammer that Soviet watches have become known to be tough as.

I have just finished buttoning up an absolute blinder of such an example, Poljot Mockba 80, in absolutely astonishing condition and stopped by an errant piece of plastic flashing which upon taking the movement out it fell out of movement and watch has worked perfectly since keeping absolutely spot on time... not too bad for a 40 year old watch, well 41 as these were made before the Olympics but I am soooooo pleased and I only paid £8...


----------



## rokman

Thank you all for the great input. 

Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## bobski

Kamburov said:


> Don't know about the hands, comrade, but the dial is a new fake.
> 
> About the unicorn amfibia - I don't like this particular dial or bezel, but whatever the case is with this experiment, it's a propper professional job on the case/bracelet. Might be an unapproved prototype design, but I too would have one in my collection.


Thank you. I didn't know they were faking these dials.

How does one tell a fake from a genuine one?


----------



## elsoldemayo

bobski said:


> Thank you. I didn't know they were faking these dials.
> 
> How does one tell a fake from a genuine one?


The slashed indices should have straight sides, not curved.


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> bobski said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I didn't know they were faking these dials.
> 
> How does one tell a fake from a genuine one?
> 
> 
> 
> The slashed indices should have straight sides, not curved.
Click to expand...

Just to add: these dials are faked THE MOST! These dials also are the easiest to differentiate real vs fake because the faking is soooooo outrageously obvious. Take a look at the catalog image here and compare with your selection. See it?

Before buying a watch, spend please spend some time looking at the catalogs that are available. Also, if a 60 year old watch has a pristine dial and ridiculously low price: red flags should go in your head....


----------



## fla

elsoldemayo said:


> The slashed indices should have straight sides, not curved.


These fake Luch dials have become more close to the originals. The 'previous generation' of the fakes had "ЛУУ" writing and 3 indices at 12 were too far from each other. Therefore, it's just a question of time..


----------



## Odessa200

fla said:


> elsoldemayo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The slashed indices should have straight sides, not curved.
> 
> 
> 
> These fake Luch dials have become more close to the originals. The 'previous generation' of the fakes had "ЛУУ" writing and 3 indices at 12 were too far from each other. Therefore, it's just a question of time..
Click to expand...

When fakers catchup and we will not be able to spot the diff with a naked eye we will start demanding the macro photo at 20x magnification. Lol. I am quite certain for the foreseeable future we will be able to tell them apart!


----------



## Lucidor

What on Earth is this? There is a 3133 inside, but what is the purpose of the dial?


----------



## Odessa200

Lucidor said:


> What on Earth is this? There is a 3133 inside, but what is the purpose of the dial?
> 
> View attachment 15235375


For the fans of this vigilante

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voroshilov_Sharpshooter_(film)


----------



## Lucidor

Odessa200 said:


> For the fans of this vigilante
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voroshilov_Sharpshooter_(film)


So the watch is a homage to a movie character who is a sniper in search for revenge? Well, I figured the dial resembled a riflescope. Thanks for the explanation!


----------



## Odessa200

Either that or to the original Voroshilov’s snipers. Souvenir watch if you ask me.


----------



## baldutere

These watches:










There are loads of these (with variations - black on white background, red stars, some clearly really badly printed, some higher quality, etc.) on ebay and I'm 99% sure that they're all frankens with fantasy dials, but I really like the design so that doesn't necessarily bother me if I can pick a nice one up for cheap (I've certainly bought cheap fashion watches in the past purely on the basis of liking the design). But I would like to know what I'm dealing with before I get into it. Thanks!


----------



## Ole Juul

baldutere said:


> These watches:


Welcome to the forums.  Unfortunately we can't see your link since you don't have enough posts yet.
I'll repost:


----------



## baldutere

Ah okay, thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

baldutere said:


> These watches:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are loads of these (with variations - black on white background, red stars, some clearly really badly printed, some higher quality, etc.) on ebay and I'm 99% sure that they're all frankens with fantasy dials, but I really like the design so that doesn't necessarily bother me if I can pick a nice one up for cheap (I've certainly bought cheap fashion watches in the past purely on the basis of liking the design). But I would like to know what I'm dealing with before I get into it. Thanks!





Ole Juul said:


> baldutere said:
> 
> 
> 
> These watches:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to the forums. ? Unfortunately we can't see your link since you don't have enough posts yet.
> I'll repost:
> 
> View attachment 15247307
Click to expand...

Welcome. Yes, the dials and hands are fake. What you are dealing depends on what is inside. We need to see what kind of movement and In what state. These are frequently Molniya movements. If in good state and serviced, these are great watches and if you lime the dial then for sure can be a good buy. I have one of these and love it!


----------



## Krautir

Hi everybody, I have a question a Big Zero that the seller says is refurbished and I was hoping you good folks here could help me with what has been "refurbished." I suspect it is a redial, recase, or both, but a lot of the parts look right to my relatively untrained eye. For reference I have read the guides from Two Broke Watch Snobs and Vintage Watch Inc. All that being said, what on this watch looks off to you guys?


----------



## Victorv

*Re: Q&amp;A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 3*



Krautir said:


> Hi everybody, I have a question a Big Zero that the seller says is refurbished and I was hoping you good folks here could help me with what has been "refurbished." I suspect it is a redial, recase, or both, but a lot of the parts look right to my relatively untrained eye. For reference I have read the guides from Two Broke Watch Snobs and Vintage Watch Inc. All that being said, what on this watch looks off to you guys?
> View attachment 15248461
> View attachment 15248465
> View attachment 15248467
> View attachment 15248469


Looks good to me, except maybe the crystal. Should be flat


----------



## Krautir

Thanks VictorV! If that's all that's pretty good. The crystal should be more squared off right? At least that wouldn't be too bad to change out if I wanted to.


----------



## Dodgydruid

Odessa200 said:


> Just to add: these dials are faked THE MOST! These dials also are the easiest to differentiate real vs fake because the faking is soooooo outrageously obvious. Take a look at the catalog image here and compare with your selection. See it?
> 
> Before buying a watch, spend please spend some time looking at the catalogs that are available. Also, if a 60 year old watch has a pristine dial and ridiculously low price: red flags should go in your head....


I have found one of these in just movement and dial in one of my UK saved sellers on ebay, chap said it was in his fathers stash of stuff and I have had two honest pieces off him so far so might pull the trigger as I don't think he knows what it is


----------



## Dodgydruid

Oh here is one that will make you chortle...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POBEDA-J...555526?hash=item26359292c6:g:-tYAAOSw5IZeXWZ7

Because the caring sharing Soviet government were so fine and dandy to the Jews in Soviet paradise... they even made a commenarative watch for them to show Mother Soviet loved everyone...

(PS that was sarcasm there, the Soviets were outside of the Jewish autonomous district, absolute b words to the Jews which ended with the collapse where many fled for other climes and Mother Russia had far too many problems than being horrid to a very tiny minority esp when there was Chechen to fulfill any people bashing desires)

If you like this, why not add a Masonic watch from the sellers other items, Freemasons other than the tie and ring, tend to be very circumspect and as a watch is one of them things we all look at when dealing with people, its like a big sign on someone's head "oooo look at me, I am a freemason" thus breaching the rules on secrecy, you can see who that is aimed at, the silly people of a certain country who would have Masonic symbols in christmas lights every year and wear at weekends T shirts with all the names of the brethren on the back at their barbecue whilst eating half cows in a bun...


----------



## Odessa200

Krautir said:


> Hi everybody, I have a question a Big Zero that the seller says is refurbished and I was hoping you good folks here could help me with what has been "refurbished." I suspect it is a redial, recase, or both, but a lot of the parts look right to my relatively untrained eye. For reference I have read the guides from Two Broke Watch Snobs and Vintage Watch Inc. All that being said, what on this watch looks off to you guys?
> View attachment 15248461
> View attachment 15248465
> View attachment 15248467
> View attachment 15248469


Crystal is wrong (too curved)
Crown is wrong (too tall)
Watch has a Made In Russia on the dial but the SU movement.... possible BUT the movement also not that right. Balance is from a different model. All bridges have different colors/treatment.

My opinion: franken. Sorry.


----------



## Krautir

Odessa200 said:


> Krautir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everybody, I have a question a Big Zero that the seller says is refurbished and I was hoping you good folks here could help me with what has been "refurbished." I suspect it is a redial, recase, or both, but a lot of the parts look right to my relatively untrained eye. For reference I have read the guides from Two Broke Watch Snobs and Vintage Watch Inc. All that being said, what on this watch looks off to you guys?
> View attachment 15248461
> View attachment 15248465
> View attachment 15248467
> View attachment 15248469
> 
> 
> 
> Crystal is wrong (too curved)
> Crown is wrong (too tall)
> Watch has a Made In Russia on the dial but the SU movement.... possible BUT the movement also not that right. Balance is from a different model. All bridges have different colors/treatment.
> 
> My opinion: franken. Sorry.
Click to expand...

Thanks Odessa. No worries. It was at a price that I was okay if it was a franken. Just wanted to understand what I had bought. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I noticed the crystal, but not the SU/ Russia mismatch. And I had no chance of knowing the bridge color part. I just don't have nearly enough experience looking at these to catch that. That's why I like this forum so much. Everybody is always willing to explain the details, which i really appreciate as someone just becoming interested in these watches. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge Odessa!


----------



## Odessa200

Krautir said:


> Odessa200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Krautir said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everybody, I have a question a Big Zero that the seller says is refurbished and I was hoping you good folks here could help me with what has been "refurbished." I suspect it is a redial, recase, or both, but a lot of the parts look right to my relatively untrained eye. For reference I have read the guides from Two Broke Watch Snobs and Vintage Watch Inc. All that being said, what on this watch looks off to you guys?
> View attachment 15248461
> View attachment 15248465
> View attachment 15248467
> View attachment 15248469
> 
> 
> 
> Crystal is wrong (too curved)
> Crown is wrong (too tall)
> Watch has a Made In Russia on the dial but the SU movement.... possible BUT the movement also not that right. Balance is from a different model. All bridges have different colors/treatment.
> 
> My opinion: franken. Sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Odessa. No worries. It was at a price that I was okay if it was a franken. Just wanted to understand what I had bought. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I noticed the crystal, but not the SU/ Russia mismatch. And I had no chance of knowing the bridge color part. I just don't have nearly enough experience looking at these to catch that. That's why I like this forum so much. Everybody is always willing to explain the details, which i really appreciate as someone just becoming interested in these watches. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge Odessa!
Click to expand...

On the balance bridge: do I see a beveled edge? The rest of the movement has the straight edge. Right? These are Perestroika time watches and some were done during transition time. In theory, they may have used whatever parts were available. But I am just looking for a perfect match. During Russia time the movement were flat and w/o SUs. Crown is easy to fix. Replace balance is also doable if you want to de-franken it.


----------



## Victorv

Krautir said:


> Thanks Odessa. No worries. It was at a price that I was okay if it was a franken. Just wanted to understand what I had bought. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. I noticed the crystal, but not the SU/ Russia mismatch. And I had no chance of knowing the bridge color part. I just don't have nearly enough experience looking at these to catch that. That's why I like this forum so much. Everybody is always willing to explain the details, which i really appreciate as someone just becoming interested in these watches. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge Odessa!


Oh sorry for my bad opinion on your Zero comrade Krutir. I was too sleepy and didn't see all the issues that the comrade Odessa have seen. Yes i think he is right on all


----------



## DC guy

Looking to pick up this well worn 34x Komandirskie to use as a weekend beater. I don't really care if it's not 100% original (as seller claims) but I'm curious about seconds hand and bezel variants.










In this reference photo from Michele Cuoccio's site, the bezel matches but the seconds hand is silver and non-luminous:


http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc01991.jpg



In this other reference photo attributed to "Phil," both the bezel and seconds hand are different from the one I'm buying:


http://www.netgrafik.ch/images/ruwvostokm14a.jpg



In this blurry catalog image, the bezel is a match but the seconds hand is red and lumed:


https://www.watchuseek.com/attachments/nos-11-04-jpg.15052071/



Has anyone ever seen one like the one I'm buying, with a red dot where the lume should be?

Finally, is there a standard name for this dial design? From the catalog it is apparently design code 248.


----------



## Avidfan

DC guy said:


> Looking to pick up this well worn 34x Komandirskie to use as a weekend beater. I don't really care if it's not 100% original (as seller claims) but I'm curious about seconds hand and bezel variants.
> 
> View attachment 15324776
> 
> 
> In this reference photo from Michele Cuoccio's site, the bezel matches but the seconds hand is silver and non-luminous:
> 
> 
> http://russianwatches.altervista.org/Dsc01991.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> In this other reference photo attributed to "Phil," both the bezel and seconds hand are different from the one I'm buying:
> 
> 
> http://www.netgrafik.ch/images/ruwvostokm14a.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> In this blurry catalog image, the bezel is a match but the seconds hand is red and lumed:
> 
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/attachments/nos-11-04-jpg.15052071/
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever seen one like the one I'm buying, with a red dot where the lume should be?
> 
> Finally, is there a standard name for this dial design? From the catalog it is apparently design code 248.


The bezels and seconds hand found on these Komandirskie are just variants in production and all IMHO are correct, this particular example has had all the hands relumed and the seconds hand has been coloured in red.

And if you're interested the caseback was used on Komandirskie from approx. 1995-2000 so it's not Soviet...


----------



## DC guy

Avidfan said:


> And if you're interested the caseback was used on Komandirskie from approx. 1995-2000 so it's not Soviet...


So they kept printing 3AKA3 MO CCCP on the dials even after the CCCP went away? Or were the dials just leftover stock?

Here is the caseback of the one in the listing (which I just bought). It has the little icebergs in the water and huge sea gull.


----------



## Avidfan

That's the post-Soviet back used from 1995...


----------



## Avidfan

Basically the watch has the wrong case back...


----------



## DC guy

Avidfan said:


> Basically the watch has the wrong case back...


Ah now I get it. Thanks!


----------



## Krautir

Victorv said:


> Oh sorry for my bad opinion on your Zero comrade Krutir. I was too sleepy and didn't see all the issues that the comrade Odessa have seen. Yes i think he is right on all


No worries Victor. It happens to everyone. I appreciate that you took the time time to respond.


----------



## rokman

Hello comrades, need your help again. I bought this sekonda and I would like to know if everything looks OK, or I need to start sourcing any original parts like crown.
The watch came in working condition, with the only problem being that in order to set the time you needed to hold the crown out and turn.
But then I opened the case back to check the movement and since that the crown stayed fixed in the setting time position and cannot be turned in either direction.
So unfortunately the watch needs a service which was due anyway but I didn't have time to enjoy it even a little.
Thanks for any input.















__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content
























Sent from my EML-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Straight_time

I can't clearly see the side view, there is a slim chance that the crown might be incorrect but can't be positive about it. Other than that, I think you found a nice one 


The issue you experience is due to part # 445 (Setting Lever Spring) being broken, very common on this caliber.

Original spares usually go for outrageously high prices on evilbay and the likes, but luckily the same part for the 3133 caliber is compatible -easily available at a fraction of the cost. 
Haven't personally tried it yet, but the information came to me from possibly the most trustworthy source around.


----------



## rokman

Thanks for the info, i had a feeling that that's the part causing the problem. 
these guys have it for 50usd.









Russian STRELA, SEKONDA, POLJOT 3017 CHRONOGRAPH Setting Lever Spring (set bridge) Part #445


Setting Lever Spring (set bridge) Part #445 for Russian wrist watch chronograph STRELA, Poljot First Moscow Watch Factory(1-MWf ) with caliber 3017.




ussrwatch.net


----------



## Odessa200

Hi friends. What do you think about these 2 ministry watches? Will do my research as well while waiting for your opinions. Thanks!


----------



## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Hi friends. What do you think about these 2 ministry watches? Will do my research as well while waiting for your opinions. Thanks!


Both of these are in the 2nd generation case of course...

Watch 1 has lost it's lume on the paddle hands (obvious I know), and the acrylic bezel doesn't belong to that watch (should always be a 119 bezel), the movement must be a SU 2416b with serial number stamped into the mainplate under the balance for the caseback to be correct, and is the crown correct? well it might be for a later production example, but whether plated or steel the crown stems on these and most older Amphibia are usually a copper colour.

Watch 2 seems to be a nice example of a later example made in 1985 or later (no serial number on the mainplate but on caseback instead) correct later arrow hands, correct SU marked 2416b, correct crown with copper stem etc.

All IMHO of course, there are lots of old threads on f/10 about these


----------



## Odessa200

Thanks my friend. Yes, was reading threads here. Some are talking about new models with the same name but overall I got the idea and the needed info. 2nd watch is indeed not bad. As per seller it has new lume on hands. Will think about it. Still sore after big delays in shipping so in no rush to add to the issue.... thanks again!


----------



## willjackson

Hi friends. 
I was wondering if this was the original case for this watch? I have a feeling it isn't. Also, is this the original balance? That looks correct to me, but I know they are often changed after breaking. Спасибо!
















Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

All correct except the crown. As far as the balance (not the balance bridge/cock): hard to say when it is shown spinning like this



willjackson said:


> Hi friends.
> I was wondering if this was the original case for this watch? I have a feeling it isn't. Also, is this the original balance? That looks correct to me, but I know they are often changed after breaking. Спасибо!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## willjackson

Thanks. I didnt think of the crown being different. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazowie

Is this a correct authentic slava movement ?

with regards,


----------



## Odessa200

yes



Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15345376
> 
> 
> Is this a correct authentic slava movement ?
> 
> with regards,


----------



## Wazowie

Hello comrades 
This movement is from a (vostok) sputnik, seller says it's authentic but ofcourse for a double check I came here. If someone would be so kindly
to check the authenticity of the watch, that would be great!


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15349047
> 
> 
> Hello comrades
> This movement is from a (vostok) sputnik, seller says it's authentic but ofcourse for a double check I came here. If someone would be so kindly
> to check the authenticity of the watch, that would be great!


Looks good to me.


----------



## fla

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15349047
> 
> 
> Hello comrades
> This movement is from a (vostok) sputnik, seller says it's authentic but ofcourse for a double check I came here. If someone would be so kindly
> to check the authenticity of the watch, that would be great!


It's not directly related to your question, but just in case, the crown isn't original, it's Slava's or Raketa's crown.


----------



## Wazowie

Thanks for the reply's, the next question is the dial, from what I know the dial looks authentic but I'm still a bit skeptical about the originality of the little rotating disc with the sputnik satellite.
thanks in regards


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15349474
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply's, the next question is the dial, from what I know the dial looks authentic but I'm still a bit skeptical about the originality of the little rotating disc with the sputnik satellite.
> thanks in regards


maybe I do not know how to use the new Forum but the images you insert are too low quality for me to judge the dials... looks ok but I am not sure


----------



## Miguel Fazendas

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15349474
> 
> 
> Thanks for the reply's, the next question is the dial, from what I know the dial looks authentic but I'm still a bit skeptical about the originality of the little rotating disc with the sputnik satellite.
> thanks in regards


From the pictures, both the dial and the disk seem correct and in very nice shape! Sputniks in good condition aren't a frequent find.


----------



## AaParker

Hello,

I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions you may have on this Raketa. As always, I greatly appreciate any help you might be able to offer. Thank you in advance for your time.


----------



## Bsw_sc

Hoping someone can tell me if this all looks correct ? Says it's running


----------



## fla

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions you may have on this Raketa. As always, I greatly appreciate any help you might be able to offer. Thank you in advance for your time.
> 
> View attachment 15359196
> View attachment 15359197
> View attachment 15359216
> View attachment 15359217
> View attachment 15359199


The second hand and the crown are wrong. My opinion is that the dial is a modern replica. Attached are Raketas in 46 case with 'a plane' dials, you can compare.


----------



## fla

Hoping someone can tell me if this all looks correct ? Says it's running 

All is correct


----------



## AaParker

fla said:


> The second hand and the crown are wrong. My opinion is that the dial is a modern replica. Attached are Raketas in 46 case with 'a plane' dials, you can compare.


Many, many thanks, fla! In comparison the dial does not look correct. I'm glad I checked; thank you for your help. I will give this one a pass. Thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Many, many thanks, fla! In comparison the dial does not look correct. I'm glad I checked; thank you for your help. I will give this one a pass. Thank you.


I was about to say 'fake dial' but was second guessing myself and then decided not to opine. Glad I was correct


----------



## fla

AaParker said:


> Many, many thanks, fla! In comparison the dial does not look correct. I'm glad I checked; thank you for your help. I will give this one a pass. Thank you.


Much obliged, have never seen a replica, now I know that they already exist. Such dials are quite rare and popular, it's really not easy to find them in good condition.


----------



## Bsw_sc

fla said:


> Hoping someone can tell me if this all looks correct ? Says it's running
> 
> All is correct


I much prefer a mechanical instead of a mechanical automatic. Now I'm wondering if they made this style watch without the automatic movement? I'm on the fence about getting this one, it seems cheap enough at $30


----------



## Odessa200

Bsw_sc said:


> I much prefer a mechanical instead of a mechanical automatic. Now I'm wondering if they made this style watch without the automatic movement? I'm on the fence about getting this one, it seems cheap enough at $30


slava 2628 is manual
slava 2627 is automatic

You can search for 2628. Also try looking at the Slava catalog. Super easy to see ALL 2628 and see what you like. 
If you do not like any from that list, then getting an automatic, removing the autowinding bridge and putting a cover from a manual Slava (to get a slimmer watch) is a few mins of work and does not require much skills... Just a small screwdriver


----------



## AirwayBagelCoffee

Hi everyone, any thoughts on this? In my rudimentary search it seems the movement has the hacking lever making it probably not a franken, but I am not sure.









Men`s USSR SOVIET mechanical watch Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 31659 | eBay


Stainless steel case, buttons and crown. Replaced the phosphor.All functions work perfectly. The chronograph works well. The first Moscow watch factory was founded in 1930 as the first state watch factory.



www.ebay.com


----------



## reporterreporter

Hi all,

How does this one look? It's from a reliable seller/good guy at a great price, but I can't seem to find any info.


----------



## stevarad

Franken. Made from various parts. Looks like buran case, sturmamskie dial, etc etc.

Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


----------



## AirwayBagelCoffee

@stevarad which one of us are you answering?


----------



## Odessa200

AirwayBagelCoffee said:


> @stevarad which one of us are you answering?


Not yours. Stevard was talking about the one in Buran case! Immediately above.

what you picked: this seller sells a few of these every week. Either he found a few thousands of these or .... you finish the sentence


----------



## AirwayBagelCoffee

Lol thank you @Odessa200 - let me run this other one by you if you don't mind:









Men`s USSR SOVIET mechanical watch Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 31659 | eBay


Stainless steel case, buttons and crown. The chronograph works well. The first Moscow watch factory was founded in 1930 as the first state watch factory. it was the oldest watch factory in the Soviet Union.



www.ebay.com


----------



## reporterreporter

stevarad said:


> Franken. Made from various parts. Looks like buran case, sturmamskie dial, etc etc.
> 
> Послато са SM-N950F помоћу Тапатока


Thanks @stevarad


----------



## Odessa200

This 


AirwayBagelCoffee said:


> Lol thank you @Odessa200 - let me run this other one by you if you don't mind:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men`s USSR SOVIET mechanical watch Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 31659 | eBay
> 
> 
> Stainless steel case, buttons and crown. The chronograph works well. The first Moscow watch factory was founded in 1930 as the first state watch factory. it was the oldest watch factory in the Soviet Union.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


this one looks better to me (and the seller did not start it from 1$ as usual so he has a minimum price in mind). But I did not try to check all aspect (nor I remember all of them). Lets see what the experts say. These are faked everyday so please wait for the Experts to chime in.


----------



## reporterreporter

What do the experts think of this one?
I think it's probably been re-lumed, but I know next to nothing about the chronographs.


----------



## Ligavesh

Might as well post my question here as well; anyone familiar with this guy here:










?? It's supposed to be a '60s model...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Might as well post my question here as well; anyone familiar with this guy here:
> 
> View attachment 15365424
> 
> 
> ?? It's supposed to be a '60s model...


Replied on another thread. This is from 90s.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Replied on another thread. This is from 90s.


well, at least it's original - it is, right?


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys what do you think about this Raketa?

I think all is good


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> well, at least it's original - it is, right?


probably. Could not find the exact model but here is a similar one.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys what do you think about this Raketa?
> 
> I think all is good


looks good to me. Just 2 missing screws to hold the movement. Easy fix.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> looks good to me. Just 2 missing screws to hold the movement. Easy fix.


Many thanks dear Odessa, yes i have the missing screws, i was cleaning the case and i tooo apart the movement.

What do you think about this pobeda too? I think is original except this bridge.

Bests, and many thanks my friend


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Many thanks dear Odessa, yes i have the missing screws, i was cleaning the case and i tooo apart the movement.
> 
> What do you think about this pobeda too? I think is original except this bridge.
> 
> Bests, and many thanks my friend


Balance for sure is from an older movement. I am not sure about black hands. But this is just a guess.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Balance for sure is from an older movement. I am not sure about black hands. But this is just a guess.


Many thanks dear Odessa, so nice information about the hands


----------



## Snowlux

What do we think about this piece? Thanks!


----------



## Bsw_sc

Could anyone tell me if this looks like a legit Raketa TV and what movement should this have? Sorry about the blurry photos, this is all the seller has right now


----------



## Odessa200

Bsw_sc said:


> Could anyone tell me if this looks like a legit Raketa TV and what movement should this have? Sorry about the blurry photos, this is all the seller has right now
> 
> View attachment 15369326
> View attachment 15369327


Raketa 'Baker'. Looks right. 2609 HA with beveled edge shall be inside.


----------



## Chascomm

Snowlux said:


> What do we think about this piece? Thanks!
> View attachment 15368894
> View attachment 15368895


Looks credible to me. Maybe late 1990s or early 2000s?

Do you have a photo of the case back?


----------



## Snowlux

Chascomm said:


> Looks credible to me. Maybe late 1990s or early 2000s?
> 
> Do you have a photo of the case back?


Here it is. Unfortunately I do not have one of the inside of the case back.


----------



## ormagon

First post here, have been looking for an affordable Chistopol Sputnik in okayish state but it is tempered with so often that I never dare to pull the trigger. How does this one look? The crown looks off to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Welcome. I think the crown is replaced but is Ok. Back is polished a bit. Movement is ok except the balance. ChChZ Sputnik I saw was from 1959. This is from 1957. I am not sure they were made in 57. 
you can see that the Geneva wawes do not align precisely across all bridges. Balance should be with a shockproof. Other than that it is an Ok watch.

I hope this helps


----------



## ormagon

Thanks a lot, great information especially the mechanical part since I know virtually nothing about that. The back plate was my other concern. So it seems like the watch had some small parts changed during maintenance throughout the years, but other than that it is original and in an ok shape (visually). Think I'm going for this one.


----------



## mightymiloquinn

Yeah. The movement was made before Sputnik even launched, so it's likely too early. But a pretty cool watch in general.


----------



## pump 19

Bought this because the case caught my eye. Admiralskie dial, hands and movement seem correct for type. Wondering whether it was re-cased into this asymmetric one. Case looks to have been gilded but its all worn off except for the machined-in bezel ring. Anyone seen this combo?


----------



## Avidfan

pump 19 said:


> Bought this because the case caught my eye. Admiralskie dial, hands and movement seem correct for type. Wondering whether it was re-cased into this asymmetric one. Case looks to have been gilded but its all worn off except for the machined-in bezel ring. Anyone seen this combo?


Unlike the Generalskie that is limited to only a few case types the Admiralskie dials can be found in almost any case type, but FWIW I've not seen that bezel on the asymmetric case before, I'm not saying it's wrong but just never seen it before, and like many other cases from the 1990's they don't feature in any of the catalogues...

I guess you've seen watch with the asymmetric case in the database sticky? If you haven't here it is below, it has the bezel most often seen on this case type...


----------



## pump 19

Avidfan said:


> I guess you've seen watch with the asymmetric case in the database sticky? If you haven't here it is below, it has the bezel most often seen on this case type...


Yes, I saw that. I've just never seen the asymmetrical case with an integral knurled bezel detail machined into the case steel...Thanks for the info.


----------



## Avidfan

pump 19 said:


> Yes, I saw that. I've just never seen the asymmetrical case with an integral knurled bezel detail machined into the case steel...Thanks for the info.


Are you sure it's integral with the case? Now that would be unusual...

These cases are plated brass btw, as you said yours once had a golden finish (TiN) but is now mainly down to the chrome underneath...


----------



## pump 19

Avidfan said:


> Are you sure it's integral with the case? Now that would be unusual...


Sure looks integral. I see no seam. Maybe it is separate and somehow afixed to give that impression, maybe.


----------



## Avidfan

pump 19 said:


> Sure looks integral. I see no seam. Maybe it is separate and somehow afixed to give that impression, maybe.


Could be integral then...maybe a prototype case?

Reminds me of this Komandirskie case that I've only seen a few times, the bezel on this is I believe integral too...


----------



## pump 19

Avidfan said:


> Could be integral then...maybe a prototype case?


My experience is quite limited so your guess is probably better than mine. Attractive watch even if it's an oddball. Thanks


----------



## Avidfan

pump 19 said:


> My experience is quite limited so your guess is probably better than mine. Attractive watch even if it's an oddball. Thanks


Exactly...another 1990's oddball


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades I would like to submit another watch for authentication to our esteemed panel of experts. I am wondering this watch should have a red seconds hand?
Please see pictures below and thank you in advance for your time and opinions, jimzilla.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades I would like to submit another watch for authentication to our esteemed panel of experts. I am wondering this watch should have a red seconds hand?
> Please see pictures below and thank you in advance for your time and opinions, jimzilla.


I wouldn't worry about the seconds hands that go with the 289 dial, they are all correct, red with or without lume and chrome again with or without lume, often depending on case type or era of production.

Your 331289 has the type most often seen, chrome without lume, and it looks to be a very nice example and with correct passport


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone has any thoughts about this Pobeda I've got from ebay?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone has any thoughts about this Pobeda I've got from ebay?
> 
> View attachment 15389316
> 
> 
> View attachment 15389318
> 
> 
> View attachment 15389320


Late Zim Pobeda with a fantasy dial as far as I can see. Also would be nice to have all 3 hands in the same color.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Late Zim Pobeda with a fantasy dial as far as I can see. Also would be nice to have all 3 hands in the same color.


knew it was too weird to be true


----------



## Ligavesh

****ing spent a fortune on these ****s _and _I'm getting scammed on top of it, **** this watch collecting ****

hope that ****er chokes on that money cheating ****ing *******

**** I'm out of this forum, I need a break


----------



## pump 19

Ligavesh said:


> **** I'm out of this forum, I need a break


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> **ing spent a fortune on these ****s and I'm getting scammed on top of it, ** this watch collecting ****
> 
> hope that *er chokes on that money cheating **ing **
> 
> **** I'm out of this forum, I need a break


can we see the add? What was in the description?


----------



## JacobC

Collecting vintage watches can be very risky. A lot of vintage requires you to almost be an expert to avoid fraud. This is one reason I collect a very narrow window of Raketa watches and consider myself a subject matter expert on those years. One year earlier or later and it's an entirely different discussion.

Another note that we're all here to help in advance. I'm sure anyone here would check out a listing for you to help.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> can we see the add? What was in the description?











Vintage Soviet Russian USSR Mechanical Watch POBEDA for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Soviet Russian USSR Mechanical Watch POBEDA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





It says in the description that they've replaced the dial, but in my shortsightedness I've interpreted that as they've replaced one worn out dial with the same one, not some fantasy dial.... So they didn't technically cheat, I was expecting something that wasn't there to begin with.

Anyway **** this old watch collecting ****. I'm too dumb and too naive for stuff like that... I'm gonna get my Commander, maybe a cheap Vostok with those cracked dials I love and **** it then... I'll just wait for all the parts to arrive and do some modding.

Edit:And some selling! Need to do a lot of trimming of the collection.


----------



## Ligavesh

that's the description


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Vintage Soviet Russian USSR Mechanical Watch POBEDA for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Soviet Russian USSR Mechanical Watch POBEDA at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It says in the description that they've replaced the dial, but in my shortsightedness I've interpreted that as they've replaced one worn out dial with the same one, not some fantasy dial.... So they didn't technically cheat, I was expecting something that wasn't there to begin with.
> 
> Anyway *** this old watch collecting ***. I'm too dumb and too naive for stuff like that... I'm gonna get my Commander, maybe a cheap Vostok with those cracked dials I love and **** it then... I'll just wait for all the parts to arrive and do some modding.
> 
> Edit:And some selling! Need to do a lot of trimming of the collection.


The description is for sure misleading. I am not sure if it is enough to get ebay to undo the sell but here is the main lie: the watch was NOT done in the 70s. Not a chance. It is a much later production. Late 80s or 90s. The dial is a fantasy one but nice looking. So you can decide what to do with the watch


----------



## jimzilla

Avidfan said:


> I wouldn't worry about the seconds hands that go with the 289 dial, they are all correct, red with or without lume and chrome again with or without lume, often depending on case type or era of production.
> 
> Your 331289 has the type most often seen, chrome without lume, and it looks to be a very nice example and with correct passport


As always Avidfan......... thank you sir.


----------



## AaParker

Hello,

I would be very interested in you opinions on this Raduga. I'm not entirely convinced by the typeface on the dial (or maybe I've just stared at it too much). It doesn't seem to match with examples from this forum thread: three generations of Vostok Precision and the collage that was posted. The collage of Raduga examples is posted for your review after the watch in question. Also the minute hand looks to be from an Almaz perhaps. Still Christopol, but would it go with this watch? As always, thank you, in advance, very much for all of your opinions and thoughts.


----------



## miroman

This is repainted dial, by hand. Markers are obviously not well painted. Letter 'R' is bent, 22 has two different shaped digits. And a lot more...

Regards, Miro.



AaParker said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would be very interested in you opinions on this Raduga. I'm not entirely convinced by the typeface on the dial (or maybe I've just stared at it too much). It doesn't seem to match with examples from this forum thread: three generations of Vostok Precision and the collage that was posted. The collage of Raduga examples is posted for your review after the watch in question. Also the minute hand looks to be from an Almaz perhaps. Still Christopol, but would it go with this watch? As always, thank you, in advance, very much for all of your opinions and thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 15390752


----------



## AaParker

Thank you. I really appreciate your help. It looked "off" because it was!


----------



## pump 19

AaParker said:


> Hello, I would be very interested in you opinions on this Raduga. I'm not entirely convinced by the typeface on the dial (or maybe I've just stared at it too much). It doesn't seem to match with examples from this forum thread: three generations of Vostok Precision and the collage that was posted.


Looks hand painted to me too but so do some details on those in the collage. I do notice the L in jewels. Capital on yours, small case on all those in the collage.


----------



## AaParker

pump 19 said:


> Looks hand painted to me too but so do some details on those in the collage. I do notice the L in jewels. Capital on yours, small case on all those in the collage.


Good catch! That's certainly not like the others. I always think it helps to get a second opinion -- especially some of the earlier ones. I wanted it to be correct, which is why I didn't trust myself to be objective, but there was just too much that seemed wrong as Miro pointed out The font filled up the entire space for the printing unlike the examples, the space between the 2 2 was vast (and off-kilter), and the minute indices are all over the place. Maybe next time. And, to be honest, I almost didn't check thinking, "Who would fake a Raduga?" Well, someone did.


----------



## pump 19

AaParker said:


> And, to be honest, I almost didn't check thinking, "Who would fake a Raduga?" Well, someone did.


I noticed a few of those other things too. I'm betting they'd describe it as "helping" or "improving"


----------



## Odessa200

Let me cast my vote as well: repainted.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Let me cast my vote as well: repainted.


Thank you, Odessa.


----------



## Ligavesh

Sigh, tomorrow I'm gonna post pictures of my Raketa Copernic... if it turns out fake THERE'S GONNA BE HELL TO PAY!

But before the pictures - the movement is 2609 HA - I've heard that the originals had only the 2609HP, but I've also heard that that is not true and that there were also 2609 HAs - that's why I bought it. Anyone know more about that?


----------



## JacobC

Ligavesh said:


> Sigh, tomorrow I'm gonna post pictures of my Raketa Copernic... if it turns out fake THERE'S GONNA BE HELL TO PAY!
> 
> But before the pictures - the movement is 2609 HA - I've heard that the originals had only the 2609HP, but I've also heard that that is not true and that there were also 2609 HAs - that's why I bought it. Anyone know more about that?


Should be the HA variant.


----------



## Ligavesh

JacobC said:


> Should be the HA variant.


Huh? Good for me then, but why do so many on the internet say it should be the (supposedly better) HP movement?

Btw, I have one pic from the WRUW topic, but I wanted to post more-especially from the side, cause I don't think I notice that 'triple telescopic sight' through the glass or whatever it's supposed to be - to me it looks like just flat acrylic... But thanks for your opinion!


----------



## JacobC

Ligavesh said:


> Huh? Good for me then, but why do so many on the internet say it should be the (supposedly better) HP movement?
> 
> Btw, I have one pic from the WRUW topic, but I wanted to post more-especially from the side, cause I don't think I notice that 'triple telescopic sight' through the glass or whatever it's supposed to be - to me it looks like just flat acrylic... But thanks for your opinion!


I actually don't know anything about an "HP" variant.


----------



## Ligavesh

JacobC said:


> I actually don't know anything about an "HP" variant.


You can see it here in this listing : Raketa Rose of Wind 2609 HП USSR Vintage Soviet Original Mechanical Watch | eBay
(well it's actually НП; П is cyrillic for P)


----------



## Ligavesh

This one looks like mine, but it has the 2609 НП (NP?) movement, also the glass looks more curved, has that funny effect : 
Raketa - Copernicus NOS (Original box and document) - 478 - Men - 1980-1989

ah well, at least I hope the dial and hands are authentic on mine, maybe the movement and glass were changed...


----------



## mightymiloquinn

I've seen Copernics with both HA and HP, but I too have read that it should be HP, so I can neither confirm nor deny.

But your case & crystal seem good, though a side shot would help confirm.


----------



## Ligavesh

mightymiloquinn said:


> I've seen Copernics with both HA and HP, but I too have read that it should be HP, so I can neither confirm nor deny.
> 
> But your case & crystal seem good, though a side shot would help confirm.


have the night shift at work, will get to post tomorrow


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> have the night shift at work, will get to post tomorrow


as far as I know, only HP is correct. If you believe HA is legit: produce a catalog image of the watch that is listed with HA. Or brand new watch matching papers. Here I demonstrate a proof that HP is the right one. Can post my watch with matching papers that has HP as well.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> as far as I know, only HP is correct. If you believe HA is legit: produce a catalog image of the watch that is listed with HA. Or brand new watch matching papers. Here I demonstrate a proof that HP is the right one. Can post my watch with matching papers that has HP as well.
> View attachment 15391331


what about the crowns? I've seen at least three variants: mine, yours, and some bigger ones on supposedly newer models on ebay.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> what about the crowns? I've seen at least three variants: mine, yours, and some bigger ones on supposedly newer models on ebay.


there is just 1 correct crown. And only 1 case shape. And only 1 crystal shape. There are several case finishes (black chrome, chrome) and many dials.


----------



## Ligavesh

What about this one: NEW! RAKETA KOPERNIK COPERNICUS 2609 USSR MOON SUN HANDS RARE VINTAGE | eBay
Are those papers for a Zim with handwritten Raketa "2609 HA" over it?


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> there is just 1 correct crown. And only 1 case shape. And only 1 crystal shape. There are several case finishes (black chrome, chrome) and many dials.


With all due respect - how old is the Copernic as a model? From the 60's, 70's? Not one change since than?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What about this one: NEW! RAKETA KOPERNIK COPERNICUS 2609 USSR MOON SUN HANDS RARE VINTAGE | eBay
> Are those papers for a Zim with handwritten Raketa "2609 HA" over it?


oooo the seller with white gloves...  must be legit (sarcastic laugh). And the Zim papers. Fantastic. Fake. Fake. Fake.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> With all due respect - how old is the Copernic as a model? From the 60's, 70's? Not one change since than?


are you joking? Copernicus is late 80s and 90s creation. Definitely not 60s or 70s.


----------



## Ligavesh

This one has the НП, but the crown is as on mine :









This one also has the НП, but the crown is flatter (still, not the sane as in the catalogue picture):


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> are you joking? Copernicus is late 80s and 90s creation. Definitely not 60s or 70s.


thought it was a 70s model


----------



## mightymiloquinn

Ligavesh said:


> This one has the НП, but the crown is as on mine :
> View attachment 15391373
> 
> 
> This one also has the НП, but the crown is flatter (still, not the sane as in the catalogue picture):
> 
> View attachment 15391380


The interesting part is that both watches are listed as having HA but they both have HP.


----------



## Ligavesh

I stand corrected for the crowns : in the catalogue there are different ones for the light and dark models, the light models have longer and thinner and the dark have shorter and wider (or so it appears)


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This one has the НП, but the crown is as on mine :
> View attachment 15391373
> 
> 
> This one also has the НП, but the crown is flatter (still, not the sane as in the catalogue picture):
> 
> View attachment 15391380


1st look good. 2nd: hard to say. Probably a bit worn down crown. Crystal looks wrong.


----------



## Ligavesh

mightymiloquinn said:


> The interesting part is that both watches are listed as having HA but they both have HP.


yeah the sellers probably know just as much


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> thought it was a 70s model
> 
> and who the **** pissed in your cereal


You are a bit to much and too graphic for my taste. I am moving on to discussing some other watches. Good lick with your purchases!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> You are a bit to much and too graphic for my taste. I am moving on to discussing some other watches. Good lick with your purchases!


thanks a lot for the polite and not at all condenscending comments when asking if a watch is legit or not though


----------



## Ligavesh

further about my watch - some pics focusing on the crystal and a pic of the movement


----------



## pump 19

Ligavesh said:


> further about my watch - some pics focusing on the crystal and a pic of the movement
> View attachment 15392733


I have a CCCP Copernicus that I believe to be genuine and your crystal profile looks the same as mine. My movement is marked differently and I have to defer on whether the HA ever found its way into these at the factory. During transition period sounds like some odd things could have happened.


----------



## Ligavesh

pump 19 said:


> I have a CCCP Copernicus that I believe to be genuine and your crystal profile looks the same as mine. My movement is marked differently and I have to defer on whether the HA ever found its way into these at the factory. During transition period sounds like some odd things could have happened.
> View attachment 15392786


Either that, or maybe the movement was just broken and someone replaced it with a HA (I think English would be NA - H is N in Russian)... if the rest is genuine that doean't bother me that much... the HA was supposedly almost identical to the HП, and if I wanted a 100% genuine oneI would've looked for one with papers...
Maybe I'll just stumble someday on a 2609 HП movement and just replace it


----------



## Ligavesh

Haha, found me a 2609 HП in a very questionable condition on Spanish ebay - maybe I'll get lucky and can get someone to fix it for me so that I could put it in the Copernicus 









Raketa Uhr Mechanismus "2609np" Kaliber Armbanduhr Ersatzteile Steampunk Art. # 273. | eBay


Finden Sie Top-Angebote für Raketa Uhr Mechanismus "2609np" Kaliber Armbanduhr Ersatzteile Steampunk Art. # 273. bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!



www.ebay.de


----------



## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> Haha, found me a 2609 HП in a very questionable condition on Spanish ebay - maybe I'll get lucky and can get someone to fix it for me so that I could put it in the Copernicus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa Uhr Mechanismus "2609np" Kaliber Armbanduhr Ersatzteile Steampunk Art. # 273. | eBay
> 
> 
> Finden Sie Top-Angebote für Raketa Uhr Mechanismus "2609np" Kaliber Armbanduhr Ersatzteile Steampunk Art. # 273. bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15392835


I don't see missing parts in this movement. If it doesn't work maybe it has dried oil. Here in Eastern Europe you can get these serviced for very cheap, don't know about Germany. Anyway, it was definitely worth the price.


----------



## Odessa200

Adrenaline96 said:


> I don't see missing parts in this movement. If it doesn't work maybe it has dried oil. Here in Eastern Europe you can get these serviced for very cheap, don't know about Germany. Anyway, it was definitely worth the price.


The hairspring is for sure bent but probably fixable. Or one can be transplanted from the HA movement. Here you will have a dilemma:
HP is a more precise version of HA (if we compare 2 new movements). Your watch has a working HA. Does it make sense to replace a good working HA for an HP to achieve catalogue's configuration but in doing so possibly degrade watch's performance? Obviously if this HP movement is serviced to have a performance that at least matches the HA you've got then there is no dilemma.
Moving just the HP bridge to the HA movement is another option. Kind of cheating but we all do that occasionally. I am NOT 100% sure the bridge swap will work but chances are it will.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> The hairspring is for sure bent but probably fixable. Or one can be transplanted from the HA movement. Here you will have a dilemma:
> HP is a more precise version of HA (if we compare 2 new movements). Your watch has a working HA. Does it make sense to replace a good working HA for an HP to achieve catalogue's configuration but in doing so possibly degrade watch's performance? Obviously if this HP movement is serviced to have a performance that at least matches the HA you've got then there is no dilemma.
> Moving just the HP bridge to the HA movement is another option. Kind of cheating but we all do that occasionally. I am NOT 100% sure the bridge swap will work but chances are it will.


yeah, that is my dillema at this moment... kinda feel like I want to swap it it just to be able to say yeah I have swapped a movement and I'd have a story to tell... and from the other side is the practical thinking - why replace a perfectly good working movement and risk bending the hands (circles?) in the process, just to be able to say yeah I've got the slightly betfer movement inside... Will think about it till it comes, in any case I'm happy with the purchase in that I'll now have a 2609 НП movement in my collection - even if it sits outside a watch.


----------



## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> yeah, that is my dillema at this moment... kinda feel like I want to swap it it just to be able to say yeah I have swapped a movement and I'd have a story to tell... and from the other side is the practical thinking - why replace a perfectly good working movement and risk bending the hands (circles?) in the process, just to be able to say yeah I've got the slightly betfer movement inside... Will think about it till it comes, in any case I'm happy with the purchase in that I'll now have a 2609 НП movement in my collection - even if it sits outside a watch.


Well, the timegrapher will tell you how healthy that 2609 НП really is. If you can get it right I'd say it's definitely worth the swap, the НП is definitely desirable.


----------



## 979greenwich

Ah well...you dive into the world of USSR watches, only to find out that your newest acquisition has the wrong glass, crown and mechanism. So you start a long quest for the original parts, only to find that a cost of defrankenizing surpasses the value of a fully original watch...
That reminds me; in one of the most iconic scenes in British television comedy, Trigger proudly reveals that he has used the same road sweeping brush for his entire career. “This old broom”, he says “ has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles”.


----------



## Adrenaline96

979greenwich said:


> Ah well...you dive into the world of USSR watches, only to find out that your newest acquisition has the wrong glass, crown and mechanism. So you start a long quest for the original parts, only to find that a cost of defrankenizing surpasses the value of a fully original watch...
> That reminds me; in one of the most iconic scenes in British television comedy, Trigger proudly reveals that he has used the same road sweeping brush for his entire career. "This old broom", he says " has had 17 new heads and 14 new handles".


You are right. But it believe it's part of the hobby to get scammed and make other kind of poor decisions. You know, learning from mistakes. I made mistakes too, and after I realized the facts, I started to pay more attention to things that would otherwise seem insignificant.


----------



## Adrenaline96

Odessa200 said:


> The hairspring is for sure bent but probably fixable. Or one can be transplanted from the HA movement. Here you will have a dilemma:
> HP is a more precise version of HA (if we compare 2 new movements). Your watch has a working HA. Does it make sense to replace a good working HA for an HP to achieve catalogue's configuration but in doing so possibly degrade watch's performance? Obviously if this HP movement is serviced to have a performance that at least matches the HA you've got then there is no dilemma.
> Moving just the HP bridge to the HA movement is another option. Kind of cheating but we all do that occasionally. I am NOT 100% sure the bridge swap will work but chances are it will.


Damn man I didn't see it.Using the HA balance defeats the purpose of the special movement. The hairspring can be shaped back into proper form though, I think Mark from the Watch Repair Channel demonstrated that.


----------



## fla

Adrenaline96 said:


> Damn man I didn't see it.Using the HA balance defeats the purpose of the special movement. The hairspring can be shaped back into proper form though, I think Mark from the Watch Repair Channel demonstrated that.


A НП isn't a precision class movement, the declared difference between НП and НА accuracy is only 10 sec., namely НА should be within about +-40 sec per day, whereas НП - +-30 sec. Visually НП and НА are identical, the only difference is a balance wheel's hair. Given above, I am not sure whether a НП with the repaired bent hair will be more accurate than a well-working НА.


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## Odessa200

fla said:


> A НП isn't a precision class movement, the declared difference between НП and НА accuracy is only 10 sec., namely НА should be within about +-40 sec per day, whereas НП - +-30 sec. Visually НП and НА are identical, the only difference is a balance wheel's hair. Given above, I am not sure whether a НП with the repaired bent hair will be more accurate than a well-working НА.


Precisely the dilemma I had tried to explain  I guess it is up to the new watch owner how to proceed. From my personal experience, I had degraded the watches performance to achieve the correct configuration. For me the choice is almost always: correct configuration over precision.


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## Ligavesh

I'm not a watchmaker, the most I know is how to change a bezel, a crown, maaaybe the glass, open and close the watch, change the battery of those filthy quartz watches and that's it pretty much... But I do intend to get into watch-making as a hobby, I've bought some books and some broken down watches to practice, so if that НА gets changed with that НП it would probably be done by me when I'm more experienced - probably just for the fun of it.


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## fla

Odessa200 said:


> For me the choice is almost always: correct configuration over precision.


I totally agree with the approach, but in this particular case there is a obvious question: how you are going to make sure you have received a movement with 'the right' НП balance even if a bridge does have 'HП'? Is it just a matter of trust?


----------



## willkerrs

Hey, just looking for some thoughts on this piece. Is it a franken? Any radium concerns? (Not my photos, apologies for the quality and focus).


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## Odessa200

responded on another thread as well: imho this is the wrong case (from Zlatoust pocket watch). Hence big empty space all around the hour digits. Franken. Sorry.



willkerrs said:


> Hey, just looking for some thoughts on this piece. Is it a franken? Any radium concerns? (Not my photos, apologies for the quality and focus).
> 
> View attachment 15397829
> 
> View attachment 15397830
> 
> View attachment 15397831
> 
> View attachment 15397832


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## Snowlux

Can anyone help with this oddity? Seller says it's a 1958 Ural, but I don't see where it's branded. Looks like it was re-cased with a new display back since the original cases had such distinct lugs. It's big - 44mm - which makes sense to me since Ural used pocket watch movements. Movement indicates "16 jewels 1st quarter 1958" from what I can decipher. I can ask the seller for more pics and info but wanted to get some insight from here first. Thanks all!


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## Odessa200

Hello. This is a marriage watch. The movement is a vintage Ural by ChChZ factory. All good here. The case, crown, dial and hands are new. Dial is a modern print (nicely done). Case, hands and crown are from China.



Snowlux said:


> Can anyone help with this oddity? Seller says it's a 1958 Ural, but I don't see where it's branded. Looks like it was re-cased with a new display back since the original cases had such distinct lugs. It's big - 44mm - which makes sense to me since Ural used pocket watch movements. Movement indicates "16 jewels 1st quarter 1958" from what I can decipher. I can ask the seller for more pics and info but wanted to get some insight from here first. Thanks all!
> 
> View attachment 15398135
> 
> View attachment 15398136
> 
> View attachment 15398137


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## Snowlux

Odessa200 said:


> Hello. This is a marriage watch. The movement is a vintage Ural by ChChZ factory. All good here. The case, crown, dial and hands are new. Dial is a modern print (nicely done). Case, hands and crown are from China.


Is the dial based on an older model or do you think it's a modern design?


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## Straight_time

It's a medical dial, it never existed on vintage Urals


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## Straight_time

willkerrs said:


> Hey, just looking for some thoughts on this piece. Is it a franken? Any radium concerns? (Not my photos, apologies for the quality and focus).
> 
> View attachment 15397829


The dial is definitely too perfect and white to be original.
Notice the small circles at 8 and between 10/11 o'clock: those are the dial feet which are not perfectly levelled anymore, on an unmolested vintage dial this issue would have caused the paint to crack. 
Almost certainly it's a modern reprint on an old blank, _aestethically_ matching with the highly polished (or even rechromed, perhaps) case, but -as Odessa pointed out- not _functionally_ correct. 
Lumed dial and unlumed hands make no sense, too...


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## Odessa200

Snowlux said:


> Is the dial based on an older model or do you think it's a modern design?


The dial has absolutely nothing to do with the Ural movement. The dial is after Slava or Luch Doctor watch that was created much later (80s) while Ural is from 50s. Here is how Urals must look like.


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## Adrenaline96

This thread should be pinned really. It is very important because it helps people avoid scams or realize they were scammed.


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## Portgaz9

Hoping the experts can help me out with purchasing my first Russian watch. Seller is soviet watch store which I've read is caveat emptor but has some legit watches and some frankens as well. Lists as a Vostok Commanders Komandirskie but doesn't have the year listed which makes me hesitate as well.


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## Straight_time

Legit 2414A/341180 model, as it appears on the 1990 Vostok/Tento catalog -looks in great shape.

Only the caseback has been swapped with a post-Soviet part, the original should be completely plain with a 6-digits serial stamped in the center (which is rather meaningless, though: any number would fit).


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## Avidfan

Portgaz9 said:


> Hoping the experts can help me out with purchasing my first Russian watch. Seller is soviet watch store which I've read is caveat emptor but has some legit watches and some frankens as well. Lists as a Vostok Commanders Komandirskie but doesn't have the year listed which makes me hesitate as well.


Unfortunately the 341180 Komandirskie that you're interested in also has a modern reproduction bezel...

Caveat emptor always...


----------



## JC.Auck

Can a Poljot expert help me out here? Wondering if this De Luxe looks OK. As far as I can tell it does not look like those 'picture perfect' reproduction dials that are common for this model of watch, movement appears correct as well:







Many thanks in advance!

JC


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## Adrenaline96

JC.Auck said:


> Can a Poljot expert help me out here? Wondering if this De Luxe looks OK. As far as I can tell it does not look like those 'picture perfect' reproduction dials that are common for this model of watch, movement appears correct as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> JC


Movement looks OK, has the correct pentagon logo. The crown I think is the right one, but I have a feeling it didn't start its life with the case. Dial also looks OK to me. Can we see the caseback? Because there is a difference between Luch 2209 and Poljot 2209, Poljot used a wavy caseback for the 2209s, while for Luch it is simple.


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## JC.Auck

Adrenaline96 said:


> Movement looks OK, has the correct pentagon logo. The crown I think is the right one, but I have a feeling it didn't start its life with the case. Dial also looks OK to me. Can we see the caseback? Because there is a difference between Luch 2209 and Poljot 2209, Poljot used a wavy caseback for the 2209s, while for Luch it is simple.


Sure, here it is. Seems to have concentric circular brushing on the caseback:



JC


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## Adrenaline96

JC.Auck said:


> Sure, here it is. Seems to have concentric circular brushing on the caseback:
> 
> 
> 
> JC


Yeah it looks like a Poljot caseback to me, it has those little circles. Luch backs are simple. At least that's what I noticed when I did my research.


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## mightymiloquinn

Haven't come across one of these before. Are there any concerns here? Photos from seller.


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## Straight_time

Shouldn't Vostok dial and Petrodvorets movement ring a bell in your ears?


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## mightymiloquinn

Straight_time said:


> Shouldn't Vostok dial and Petrodvorets movement ring a bell in your ears?


Well yes, but that's ultimately not a helpful question. Is the dial a fake? Should it belong to a totally different movement (not just a different factory)? Case wrong? Crown wrong? Hands? What about this _is _right?


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## AaParker

Straight_time said:


> Shouldn't Vostok dial and Petrodvorets movement ring a bell in your ears?


Along those lines, this has been, for me, one of the most useful websites for watch logos (and just a great site in general from forum member @ill-phill) russian_logos

It really helped me keep those logos and brands clear in my head. I still refer to it all the time, and it's great to have this information in the knowledge base of anyone interested in Soviet/Russian watches. A big thank you to @ill-phill, and I hope you find it useful as well @mightymiloquinn. 🙂


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## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> Shouldn't Vostok dial and Petrodvorets movement ring a bell in your ears?


is it Pobeda? Or Vostok?
Of course this is a frankenwatch!


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## AaParker

mightymiloquinn said:


> Well yes, but that's ultimately not a helpful question. Is the dial a fake? Should it belong to a totally different movement (not just a different factory)? Case wrong? Crown wrong? Hands? What about this _is _right?


Another great website for checking pictures with hands and dials is Watches of the USSR from forum member @mroatman Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection

I think this might be the one you are interested in from the 1960s: Vostok | Watches of the USSR


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## mightymiloquinn

AaParker said:


> Another great website for checking pictures with hands and dials is Watches of the USSR from forum member @mroatman Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection
> 
> I think this might be the one you are interested in from the 1960s: Vostok | Watches of the USSR


Cheers. I don't know why I didn't look there first.


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## Odessa200

the best place to start is to look at Soviet catalogs. Even if you cannot spot the exact model you can see right away that this is not Vostok hands nor Vostok movement (some catalogs have photos of the movement) . These hands belong to various Pobeda watches (becase the movement inside is the classical Pobeda).

it is confusing to navigate the Soviet watch brands and Factories. Same Pobeda watch was made by several factories. But Vostok watch was only made by ChChZ!


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## mightymiloquinn

I definitely made an egregious error in overlooking what should have been obvious. I'm afraid my critical thinking wasn't turned on this morning. 
I do have a copy of the 1960 catalog, this dial isn't in there, so it must be after that (which of course also didn't match up with what the movement indicated).


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## Adrenaline96

mightymiloquinn said:


> I definitely made an egregious error in overlooking what should have been obvious. I'm afraid my critical thinking wasn't turned on this morning.
> I do have a copy of the 1960 catalog, this dial isn't in there, so it must be after that (which of course also didn't match up with what the movement indicated).


That watch is a poor franken, like it is extremely obvious. Pobeda 2602 movement with Vostok dial, obvious franken!


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## mightymiloquinn

Adrenaline96 said:


> That watch is a poor franken, like it is extremely obvious. Pobeda 2602 movement with Vostok dial, obvious franken!


Do you see this as useful? Yes, it has been established as franken. Yes, it has been established that I made an obvious mistake. Feel free to beat a dead horse and try to make me feel bad. I won't post in this thread again. Cheers!!


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## Adrenaline96

mightymiloquinn said:


> Do you see this as useful? Yes, it has been established as franken. Yes, it has been established that I made an obvious mistake. Feel free to beat a dead horse and try to make me feel bad. I won't post in this thread again. Cheers!!


I tried to support the idea of the previous guys, to clear any doubt from your mind. I even told you what Pobeda movement was used. You are very dense. Good riddance!


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## AaParker

Hello --

Any thoughts on this Stolichnie? Thank you for your thoughts and for your time.


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## Straight_time

There are only 2 models pictured on the 1960 catalog and this isn't one of them, so I will rely on Dashiell's site as reference (TBH I've also seen some watches whose seconds hand's tip is painted red, but I couldn't tell whether this would be correct for this one):










The movement is also correct, so if the price suits you I'd definitely say grab it.


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## AaParker

Thank you so much @Straight_time. I really appreciate it! 🙂


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## mariomart

I have the same one @AaParker


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## Odessa200

Wandering Dave said:


> My apologies if this is not the correct portion of the forum for this question. What are the problems with this watch (other than the not so great picture quality)?
> 
> View attachment 15435365
> 
> 
> My initial response is that I think it is attractive enough that I might buy it as a modern, nothing fancy watch. However it is listed as NOS but I can find no other pictures of similar watches (not even variations on the colors - the numbers are not the same). No picture of the movement is available. I don't want to support someone claiming NOS but if this is simply a newer Raketa being pawned off as old I might be willing to search for it elsewhere from a source that isn't being shady.


perfect spot for this question. This is what this watch should look like. Image you posted is too small. Do you mind sharing a better photo? Additional photos? Or link to the lot. If you think someone may buy it then just send me a DM. I already have a few of these so will not buy for sure  and this is frowned upon anyway to take advantage of people like this.


----------



## AaParker

mariomart said:


> I have the same one @AaParker


Thank you @mariomart. Yours is very nice. It's great having another one to view for comparison, and yours is also the 17 jewels just like the one I'm looking at!


----------



## RobNJ

Wandering Dave, if you are concerned about internal authenticity, I'd hold out for a movement shot. A lot of 24-hr Raketas sold online have converted 2609.NA (or .NP) movements, rather than the correct 2623. They may still work perfectly well.


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## Odessa200

Wandering Dave said:


> Interesting. I don't have a better picture so I'll go with the link. To my eye it looks the same except they have colored part of it. I like the added color but I'm much less interested if its a random addition. Thanks.


I would pass on this one. Maybe the dial is original but the print is not sharp to me. And then this strange discoloration... I also see other lots from this seller and there are fake Raketa dials. Also there is a photo of the movement and it is the wrong movement. Not a 24 h. Lets look at the hands of this watch. The hour hand is close to 20:30. Maybe 20:25 or so. But the minute hand points to 8 mins mark. Why? Pass for me.


----------



## RobNJ

Wandering Dave said:


> Interesting. I don't have a better picture so I'll go with the link. To my eye it looks the same except they have colored part of it. I like the added color but I'm much less interested if its a random addition. Thanks.


So OK, now that Odessa200 has warned you off this particular watch, let's look at the seller more generally.

1) The seller has lots of listings for ostensibly identical (multiple watches available) Soviet-era "NOS" watches. It's rare that some new cache of old watches from the Soviet era comes up, so unless this seller really has come across the mother lode, it is already suspicious.

2) The 2628.N (or .H in Cyrillic) movement is incorrect for a 24 hour watch, as already noted. But look at the seller's other 24-hr listings and you will also see that he or shoe uses the same stock photo of the same identical movement for several of those - see the scratch on the train bridge over the movement number? Now see it over and over and over again. Stock photos in and of themselves are a bad sign.

3) Finally, among the seller's other inventory are lots of obvious fantasy dials. Some sellers do sell fantasy watches right along with legitimate original watches, and if you want one (I have a couple), there's nothing wrong with buying one. But let's say it isn't a positive either.

Summing up, you can't always "buy the seller" - some sellers, wittingly or not, do have a mix of good and bad watches for sale. But this particular seller raises a host of flags such that I would be very, very wary even of something that looks good at first glance (like the watch you picked - I mean, I wanted that watch to be authentic, it just wasn't).


----------



## Adrenaline96

Wandering Dave said:


> You guys have been great so far so I'll drop another watch on you. This is one of the watches that sold me on the idea of vintage Soviet watches - interesting texture and color with a pleasingly clean design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Pobeda USSR Soviet | eBay
> 
> 
> <p>USSR SOVIET POBEDA VINTAGE Men Wristwatch</p><br><p>Good working! </p><p>Cosmetic condition is good! All pictures are actual! 100% original! From Soviet Union Ussr! Serviced, cleaned and oiled! In collection! You'll get exactly what you see!</p>
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could snip the pictures from eBay but that's not going to improve the quality any. The hands look darker than in other seller's similar watches but I can't tell if that is just the lighting. The mechanisms looks right but only in that I can at least read most of a number on it.


Dial, case and crown look OK. Caseback probably OK as well. Movement is a 2602, which is correct. The only doubt in my mind, as you said, are the hands, but here's another model that looks like the one you presented to us, and the hands look the same:


----------



## Adrenaline96

Wandering Dave said:


> Thank you.


Look at what I've found in a 1987 Pobeda catalog:









So again, I don't know what to make of this, are the hands the wrong ones or it's just a lightning thing?


----------



## RobNJ

Wandering Dave said:


> Thank you.


As I think someone noted in your other post, late Soviet Pobedas (1980s) in general aren't as well documented as some other areas of Soviet horology, and they were produced in a very large variety. There may be variation in handsets and the like over time. I think the catalog that Adrenaline96 cites shows a different set of hands. But on the one you're looking at the minute and second hand at least are ZIM hands that can be seen in the wild on other watches, and if I simply Google "Pobeda watch blue" I can find several online images of a watch like yours with exactly your handset. It is not 100% proof, but if you are willing to live with a bit of ambiguity, I'm inclined to believe it original, and the price isn't bad.


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## Adrenaline96

I agree with Rob, from what I read Soviet/Russian watch factories used to alter models, for example slight dial changes or changing hands when they felt like doing that kind of thing really. That’s why part of this mystery exists. There’s a very good chance those hands on that Pobeda are correct, considering the fact that I showed you an identical watch.


----------



## VintageChris

Anyone know if there are any genuine Soviet era laika or other space dog dials? There was a cool forum Laika Vostok a few years back, but I'm interested in something vintage. Here are a few that I found online, but they look fantasy. The last one looks more real, but not Soviet? Any help would be appreciated.






























Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

only the last one is real. Here is another image of a similar watch. The rest is fake.



VintageChris said:


> Anyone know if there are any genuine Soviet era laika or other space dog dials? There was a cool forum Laika Vostok a few years back, but I'm interested in something vintage. Here are a few that I found online, but they look fantasy. The last one looks more real, but not Soviet? Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


----------



## VintageChris

Odessa200 said:


> only the last one is real. Here is another image of a similar watch. The rest is fake.
> 
> View attachment 15441613


Thanks, do you have any more information (marker, country of origin etc.) on the last one?

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

VintageChris said:


> Thanks, do you have any more information (marker, country of origin etc.) on the last one?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


probably eastern germany. Made in the 60s. 
should have the AS 1130 movement inside.


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## Ligavesh

What do the experts think about this one:




























Thanks for your opinions!


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## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> What do the experts think about this one:
> 
> View attachment 15443710
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443711
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443713
> 
> 
> Thanks for your opinions!


Raketa 4661899 model aka Wind Rose. Found in the 1989-1992 catalog. Produced in the 80s and probably early 90s. This watch should have a 2609 HP inside. Your watch seems to have the wrong case, because this model should have a case where the lugs are visible when the watch face is up. Dial seems to be the correct one.


----------



## Ligavesh

Adrenaline96 said:


> Raketa 4661899 model aka Wind Rose. Found in the 1989-1992 catalog. Produced in the 80s and probably early 90s. This watch should have a 2609 HP inside. Your watch seems to have the wrong case, because this model should have a case where the lugs are visible when the watch face is up. Dial seems to be the correct one.
> 
> View attachment 15443726
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443727


Do you think it has the case of the Raketa perpetual calender? Seems to be the case with a lot of Raketas with a turning bezel?


----------



## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> Do you think it has the case of the Raketa perpetual calender? Seems to be the case with a lot of Raketas with a turning bezel?


Yes, that's the case of a Calendar Raketa.


----------



## Ligavesh

Ok, I've got another Raketa:





































Thanks!


----------



## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> Ok, I've got another Raketa:
> 
> View attachment 15443805
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443806
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443807
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443809
> 
> 
> Thanks!


I think this one is legit, the case is correct, movement is correct. I couldn't find the exact dial of yours, but look at these:

1989 catalog









1989









By the way, another look at the previous Raketa watch you asked about, from the 1998 catalog:


----------



## Ligavesh

Adrenaline96 said:


> I think this one is legit, the case is correct, movement is correct. I couldn't find the exact dial of yours, but look at these:
> 
> 1989 catalog
> View attachment 15443817
> 
> 
> 1989
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, another look at the previous Raketa watch you asked about, from the 1998 catalog:


Thanks! I found another 'Rose' with all the right parts I think, but it was expensive, the good ones don't come cheap.


----------



## Adrenaline96

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks! I foud another 'Rose' with all the right parts I think, but it was expensive, the good ones don't come cheap.


Good remark. A legit watch that works well doesn't come cheap, especially if the model is sought after.


----------



## 979greenwich

For some reason the 24h or Windrose variants often end up in Calendar cases. I wonder what happened to the original cases...?


----------



## Adrenaline96

979greenwich said:


> For some reason the 24h or Windrose variants often end up in Calendar cases. I wonder what happened to the original cases...?


I think the models you mentioned were rarer considering the fact that they sported a 2609HP, which is a 2609 with a different ballance, and a different case. So the rarer cases and movements dissappeared over time. The Calendar watches were more common, and considering the fact that 2609 and 2628 movements fit in the same cases (26mm movements after all), it's easy for franken wizards to do this.


----------



## Adrenaline96

Adrenaline96 said:


> I think the models you mentioned were rarer considering the fact that they sported a 2609HP, which is a 2609 with a different ballance, and a different case. So the rarer cases and movements dissappeared over time. The Calendar watches were more common, and considering the fact that 2609 and 2628 movements fit in the same cases (26mm movements after all), it's easy for franken wizards to do this.


And another thing that supports this idea (courtesy of ranfft):


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Ok, I've got another Raketa:
> 
> View attachment 15443805
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443806
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443807
> 
> 
> View attachment 15443809
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Love this model. It is a bit strange but I like it. Cause I had it about 30 years ago 

in case you do not know, it is called 'star wars' or 'casket'. Good watch to wear on ? .


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Love this model. It is a bit strange but I like it. Cause I had it about 30 years ago
> 
> in case you do not know, it is called 'star wars' or 'casket'. Good watch to wear on ? .


I didn't like it at first sight, but the second time I saw it... goddamit, here we go in a bidding war again...

edit: "casket" - love it, I gotta throw all my money on the bidding to win it now!


----------



## Ligavesh

seriously though, Raketa are masters of design - no wonder, they were founded in St. Petersburg


----------



## reporterreporter

Any comments on this Raketa? I've seen the blue/white version of this dial in catalogues and Dashiell's website, but never this black version. Thanks, as always


----------



## Adrenaline96

reporterreporter said:


> Any comments on this Raketa? I've seen the blue/white version of this dial in catalogues and Dashiell's website, but never this black version. Thanks, as always
> 
> View attachment 15448142
> View attachment 15448149
> View attachment 15448150
> View attachment 15448152


Movement is a 2610 which is correct, case and crown are correct, caseback probably is the right one too... As you said, dial is curious, but I think it's legit, it is textured and resembles Dashiel's dial on his watch.


----------



## reporterreporter

Adrenaline96 said:


> Movement is a 2610 which is correct, case and crown are correct, caseback probably is the right one too... As you said, dial is curious, but I think it's legit, it is textured and resembles Dashiel's dial on his watch.


Thanks. I thought the same. The seller has faked dials (though he says as much in descriptions) but this dial isn't listed as such and seems to match Dashiell's/the catalogue in every way except color. It's also a pretty cool color scheme

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazowie

Is the movement of this raketa all authentic? the front picture is an export one and the last picture is from the same watch but not for export.


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15449665
> 
> 
> View attachment 15449667
> 
> 
> Is the movement of this raketa all authentic? the front picture is an export one and the last picture is from the same watch but not for export.


movement is authentic. Raketa did not mark movements in English. They did not even marked backs in English. No issues here. 
the question I have is this a correct time-period movement. I have doubts. To me this is an older watch with a more recent movement. But I am not 100% sure


----------



## RobNJ

What do we think of this? Mostly I've seen dauphine or lance (triangular) hour/minute hands with these 1960s octagonal Vostok/Chaika/Raduga cases and 2605 movements, but the handset here doesn't _look _implausible.

No movement shot, but I could ask for that if the exterior checks out.


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> What do we think of this? Mostly I've seen dauphine or lance (triangular) hour/minute hands with these 1960s octagonal Vostok/Chaika/Raduga cases and 2605 movements, but the handset here doesn't _look _implausible.
> 
> No movement shot, but I could ask for that if the exterior checks out.
> 
> View attachment 15450175


absolutely impossible combo. Why? Why do you need lume dots on the dial but not on hands? yes, yes, later before Soviet collaped there were some crazy models like this (cause they used whatever parts were in stock) but back in the 60s people knew what they were doing. So, this is a franken.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

What do you think about this poljot? I can't find it on any catalogue

Many thanks in advance


----------



## Victorv

And about this one?


----------



## Wazowie

Odessa200 said:


> movement is authentic. Raketa did not mark movements in English. They did not even marked backs in English. No issues here.
> the question I have is this a correct time-period movement. I have doubts. To me this is an older watch with a more recent movement. But I am not 100% sure












This is the mechanical movement of the first watch you're seeing it's somewhat the same but more sharp and refined than the mechanical movement of the watch that wasn't made for export on the second picture.


----------



## Ligavesh

a f


N I K O L A I said:


> @Odessa200 , you were my hope regarding my 31659 chrono question above. I noticed you skipped my post to provide advise to someone who posted after me.
> Anyone? Any thoughts? Pleeeeeeeease!


sorry, no answer, but a follow up to your question: were the 31659 put in bezel-less Sturmanskies?


----------



## Ligavesh

N I K O L A I said:


> Thanks for the follow-up! I am not sure what you mean...I know that the glass is probably not authentic, but the lack of bezel? Please, clarify what you mean? Here is another picture. Do you still think there is bezel missing (strictly speaking, I am not sure what to consider a bezel in this watch)? I know the glass is a bit uncanonical, though.
> Thanks!
> N.
> View attachment 15451903


Sorry for the confusion, I wasn't talking about your watch, it's just that I saw a Sturmanskie with no bezel with a 31659 on ebay.

edit: like this:










it doesn't have that ring with 1-12 around the dial, that's the bezel.


----------



## Wazowie

Has anybody seen this watch before? Or could tell me more about it I can't seem to find any info on the internet.


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15451816
> 
> 
> This is the mechanical movement of the first watch you're seeing it's somewhat the same but more sharp and refined than the mechanical movement of the watch that wasn't made for export on the second picture.


movement finish and small details had changed over the years but it was never 'for export we make sharper/better movements'. So what you perceive as domestic vs export is just watches separated by time (earlier movement vs later version of the same movement).

1 is an earlier movement and 2 is a later version.


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> @Odessa200 , you were my hope regarding my 31659 chrono question above. I noticed you skipped my post to provide advise to someone who posted after me.
> Anyone? Any thoughts? Pleeeeeeeease!


here it goes... but please remember I am not an expert in watches. Especially 3133s.
1) i think this is a mix of several watches. Wrong bridge is one clue (probably not shortage at the factory cause they had quite a few in stores to last a few more years) but what the person who assembled this watch had.
2) lume is of different colors on dial/hand/bezel. Replaced partially and bezel is from an older watch
3) balance has a white shock spring: Russian. Not Soviet.
4) the balance is white or yellow? Hard to say. White is Russia. Not a SU.

Personally I would pass on this watch (unless I had an extra 31659 bridge To replace 3133). This is a key part of the movement that bears the important identity....


----------



## Odessa200

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15452208
> 
> 
> Has anybody seen this watch before? Or could tell me more about it I can't seem to find any info on the internet.


Limited series. Made in the 2000. Inside will have a basic and the simplest Zim 2602. Probably made as a gift to people who worked at Baylonur. If you collect space related watches: good watch. Otherwise nothing special. Just another simple limited edition made by special order to give as corporate gifts.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> And about this one?


Looks right to me. Just the crown is wrong.


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> What do you think about this poljot? I can't find it on any catalogue
> 
> Many thanks in advance


so crystal is obviously wrong. But I think this case is not for this dial (much bigger than the dial) and not sure if it is Pojot. I have no proof but I do not think this is a legit watch. But I may be wrong...


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Thanks a lot! Yay! Actually, I probably should have revealed more details. Sorry. The watch is claimed to be NOS, sitting in a drawer since 1992. Comes with a box and documents (I know, one can technically forge those, but still adds a bit to the confidence). Documents are for 31659 caliber and watch number in documents corresponds to that on the 3133 bridge! I mean, us, Russians, are creative people, we can swap parts if they are interchangeable, why not? According to the seller's story, a pilot was given this watch upon graduation back in 1992 and stored it in a drawer and forgot about it. I am also included to pass on this one...too many unknowns.


it is possible that the watch is from 92: white balance, etc. But the bezel has a distinct different lume color. That does not align that much with the drawer story. Then the mismatch in docs/bridge... strange. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## Ligavesh

I have a 3133 that is 'masked' with a 31659 bridge. If I manage to open the damn snap back and learn how to take out the bridge, I could send it over.


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Looks right to me. Just the crown is wrong.





Odessa200 said:


> so crystal is obviously wrong. But I think this case is not for this dial (much bigger than the dial) and not sure if it is Pojot. I have no proof but I do not think this is a legit watch. But I may be wrong...


Many many thanks Odessa. Really apreciated


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm not sure where to put this, I think it belongs here best. I bought a relatively cheap 2234 from Etsy in a nice condition, the watch works fine - but it doesn't hack. Now the seller says it's a 'civilian' version I'd bought, and that's why it doesn't hack - does that make any sense? Btw, I did open the case, it's a 2234, seems well preserved.










Is this real?Was there really a 'civilian' 2234 that doesn't hack? Why not just put 2214 then? I'll put pictures of my watch later, but here some from the site I bought it from:


----------



## Ligavesh

N I K O L A I said:


> This does not make sense. A given mechanism is either hacking or not. There are usually no civilian vs. military versions for the SAME mechanism...I am not an expert, just sharing my thoughts.


Eh, if I feel brave enough I might 'transplant' a working hacking 2234 I have from a not so nice watch into this one, but who knows when we'll that be, I barely have free time to read the forum, let alone to actually start working on watches...


----------



## Ligavesh

Btw, here are _my_ pics off the watch:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Eh, if I feel brave enough I might 'transplant' a working hacking 2234 I have from a not so nice watch into this one, but who knows when we'll that be, I barely have free time to read the forum, let alone to actually start working on watches...


So here is the deal:
2214 can be both hacking and not. Early hacking movements were still stamped with 2214. Then with 2234 after a few years when the 2234 was officially separated from 2214 as a separate caliber.

2234 is always with the hack. Always.

military vs civilan: there were same watchs (exterior design) that had a military hacking caliber (2214 and then 2234) and civilian version w/o the hack (non hacking 2214).

The bottom line: you got a franken. It is either non-hack 2214 with a replaced bridge or true 2234 with a missing hack lever.

next question is: should your watch contain 2234 or 2214? Did you check catalogs?

as far as I see, this watch is supposed to have 2214 (no hack) and even if this watch would have 2234 with hack it would be incorrect. To fix this watch, given hack is already missing, you need to replace the train bridge 









Here is an example of Civilian and Military variants of same watch with different calibers.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> So here is the deal:
> 2214 can be both hacking and not. Early hacking movements were still stamped with 2214. Then with 2234 after a few years when the 2234 was officially separated from 2214 as a separate caliber.
> 
> 2234 is always with the hack. Always.
> 
> military vs civilan: there were same watchs (exterior design) that had a military hacking caliber (2214 and then 2234) and civilian version w/o the hack (non hacking 2214).
> 
> The bottom line: you got a franken. It is either non-hack 2214 with a replaced bridge or true 2234 with a missing hack lever.
> 
> next question is: should your watch contain 2234 or 2214? Did you check catalogs?
> 
> as far as I see, this watch is supposed to have 2214 (no hack) and even if this watch would have 2234 with hack it would be incorrect. To fix this watch, given hack is already missing, you need to replace the train bridge
> View attachment 15453467
> 
> 
> Here is an example of Civilian and Military variants of same watch with different calibers.
> View attachment 15453474
> View attachment 15453476


Thanks for the explanation; tbh authenticity was not so important here for me, but I hoped there is a version like this with a 2234 movement cause I like how it looks - I also have a new dial I could put in place of this used up one to make it look even better... Theoretically, I could also put a 2214 movement in this one, cause I have some (I just don't have the skill) or a working 2234... I'll see what I'll do, but like I said, it wasn't a big deal cause I just like how the watch looks and it's not important here to me whether it's authentic. Anyway, thanks again.

btw, I actually do have those hacking military ones, a blue one and a black one.


----------



## Apzlsoxk

I just purchased a "refurbished" Sturmanskie Gagarin from ebay, and I am so intrigued at some of its elements.

















The first is that the listing title said 15 jewels, yet the description said 17. So I wasn't sure which one it was supposed to be. The jewel setting says it's 15 jewels, but it's also not recessed.

However, what made me really curious was that both a 6 digit serial number and a date number were present. The blog posts I've read regarding Gagarin Franken watch spotting seemed to say that those were mutually exclusive, but there they are. Not only that, the date number is 356, which means it would be 2 years after the 15j version ceased production.

What the heck is this? I assumed that it was assembled from spare parts, but I really can't figure out what those parts were originally intended for.

Aside from my curiosity, could this Mish-mosh of parts negatively affect performance? The seller hasn't responded to my question. I'm confused but also


----------



## Odessa200

Apzlsoxk said:


> I just purchased a "refurbished" Sturmanskie Gagarin from ebay, and I am so intrigued at some of its elements.
> 
> View attachment 15457601
> 
> 
> View attachment 15457602
> 
> 
> The first is that the listing title said 15 jewels, yet the description said 17. So I wasn't sure which one it was supposed to be. The jewel setting says it's 15 jewels, but it's also not recessed.
> 
> However, what made me really curious was that both a 6 digit serial number and a date number were present. The blog posts I've read regarding Gagarin Franken watch spotting seemed to say that those were mutually exclusive, but there they are. Not only that, the date number is 356, which means it would be 2 years after the 15j version ceased production.
> 
> What the heck is this? I assumed that it was assembled from spare parts, but I really can't figure out what those parts were originally intended for.
> 
> Aside from my curiosity, could this Mish-mosh of parts negatively affect performance? The seller hasn't responded to my question. I'm confused but also


I wish a have better news.... this is not a Shturmanskie. Not at all. If you wanted a true Shturmanskie and still can return this watch please do this. It has a fake dial, wrong hands, wrong movement, etc. sorry.
Welcome to the forum. If you post your choice before making a purchase you will get a ton of advice!


----------



## Apzlsoxk

Odessa200 said:


> I wish a have better news.... this is not a Shturmanskie. Not at all. If you wanted a true Shturmanskie and still can return this watch please do this. It has a fake dial, wrong hands, wrong movement, etc. sorry.
> Welcome to the forum. If you post your choice before making a purchase you will get a ton of advice!


Awesome thank you, I just canceled the order. The movement is exactly what I was most concerned about. I'm not particularly worried about the authenticity of the watch regarding the dial and hands, but the movement being wrong kind of kills it for me.

What about the movement gives it away? Aside from certain components being etched differently than the original Shturmanskie and the non-recessed jewels, is it a functionally different movement? Or do those etchings imply a totally different movement?


----------



## Apzlsoxk

N I K O L A I said:


> I am not an expert, but this is a known fact that Soviet watches have many interchangeable parts. Yours look like primarily POBEDA, imho. I have exact same second hand on my Raketa and the hour and minute hands look like coming from Pobeda to me. The set of hands is totally off (supposed to be lumed, I am sure you know). Why do you think this should affect performance, if parts are interchangeable? That probably should not.


Basically I was wondering if what I was buying was a Shturmanskie Gagarin with a new dial and hands, or if it were a different watch masquerading as a Shturmanskie. Looking at Pobedas now, I can tell that it is clearly the latter. Thank you.


----------



## Ligavesh

And it's me again! So, I found a relatively cheap 'Windrose' on ebay. What made me a little suspicious was that on one of the pictures there was no 'СДЕЛАНО В СССР', and on another picture there was. I thought maybe lighting effect, cause on the picture without СДЕЛАНО the lighting was very strong... Anyway, the watch came today and there's nothing on the dial, just like on first picture... Do I have a franken or a printed dial or could it be that this watch is from the interim period after the desolution of the USSR and thephotos with СДЕЛАНО the seller stole from somewhere else (or he previously had another Windrose), and therefore no "made in" anywhere. The movement is correct.


















I mean, if someone wanted to fake the dial, they would've probably bothered to put СДЕЛАНО В СССР or СДЕЛАНО В РОСИИ to make it look more authentic - at least that's what I'm hoping. The seller still hasn't answered my question, but to be fair I asked him 15 minutes ago.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> And it's me again! So, I found a relatively cheap 'Windrose' on ebay. What made me a little suspicious was that on one of the pictures there was no 'СДЕЛАНО В СССР', and on another picture there was. I thought maybe lighting effect, cause on the picture without СДЕЛАНО the lighting was very strong... Anyway, the watch came today and there's nothing on the dial, just like on first picture... Do I have a franken or a printed dial or could it be that this watch is from the interim period after the desolution of the USSR and thephotos with СДЕЛАНО the seller stole from somewhere else (or he previously had another Windrose), and therefore no "made in" anywhere. The movement is correct.
> View attachment 15458781
> 
> 
> View attachment 15458782
> 
> 
> I mean, if someone wanted to fake the dial, they would've probably bothered to put СДЕЛАНО В СССР or СДЕЛАНО В РОСИИ to make it look more authentic - at least that's what I'm hoping. The seller still hasn't answered my question, but to be fair I asked him 15 minutes ago.


my guess it was made during transition period between USSR and Russia. Many such watches have no Made In. Other than that, I am a bit concerned about slightly different color of the dial and bezel but that can be just aging effect. Not a bad specimen.


----------



## Odessa200

Apzlsoxk said:


> I just purchased a "refurbished" Sturmanskie Gagarin from ebay, and I am so intrigued at some of its elements.
> 
> View attachment 15457601
> 
> 
> View attachment 15457602
> 
> 
> The first is that the listing title said 15 jewels, yet the description said 17. So I wasn't sure which one it was supposed to be. The jewel setting says it's 15 jewels, but it's also not recessed.
> 
> However, what made me really curious was that both a 6 digit serial number and a date number were present. The blog posts I've read regarding Gagarin Franken watch spotting seemed to say that those were mutually exclusive, but there they are. Not only that, the date number is 356, which means it would be 2 years after the 15j version ceased production.
> 
> What the heck is this? I assumed that it was assembled from spare parts, but I really can't figure out what those parts were originally intended for.
> 
> Aside from my curiosity, could this Mish-mosh of parts negatively affect performance? The seller hasn't responded to my question. I'm confused but also





Apzlsoxk said:


> Awesome thank you, I just canceled the order. The movement is exactly what I was most concerned about. I'm not particularly worried about the authenticity of the watch regarding the dial and hands, but the movement being wrong kind of kills it for me.
> 
> What about the movement gives it away? Aside from certain components being etched differently than the original Shturmanskie and the non-recessed jewels, is it a functionally different movement? Or do those etchings imply a totally different movement?


This watch is largely collected for the dial/hands. Not that much for the movement. What you got is slightly franked Pobeda. It has wrong Balance.
Shurmanskie movement has some very important aspects. 1) is the recessed jewels. This is needed so the bridge can be raised creating space for the stop second complication. I would suspect this watch does not have it. Then there are cosmetic aspects like Geneva strips on the mainplate under the balance. No writing 'Pobeda'. 5 digits number, etc. Quality wise: Shturmankie were made better and went via rigorous quality control but this is largely irrelevant now after so many years. It is possible to buy a better working plain Pobeda than truly authentic Shturmanskie. And it will be cheeper. If you want a better working watch look for relatively new (Not used for years) movement that was properly serviced. Shturmanskie were issued as military equipment and most were used for many years in harsh conditions. Post your choices before buying would be happy to opine. Good luck.


----------



## Apzlsoxk

Before I get got again: I'm just double checking on this kirovskie. I really can't find anything wrong with it. I checked a post regarding the service guide and history and its features seemed fairly consistent with the 1stSWF Type-I watch. Everything you need to know about the Kirova Type-1...

Some watch features weren't mentioned in the guide so I'm just checking if I missed anything. Just checking before I pull the trigger on this.


----------



## Apzlsoxk

Odessa200 said:


> This watch is largely collected for the dial/hands. Not that much for the movement. What you got is slightly franked Pobeda. It has wrong Balance.
> Shurmanskie movement has some very important aspects. 1) is the recessed jewels. This is needed so the bridge can be raised creating space for the stop second complication. I would suspect this watch does not have it. Then there are cosmetic aspects like Geneva strips on the mainplate under the balance. No writing 'Pobeda'. 5 digits number, etc. Quality wise: Shturmankie were made better and went via rigorous quality control but this is largely irrelevant now after so many years. It is possible to buy a better working plain Pobeda than truly authentic Shturmanskie. And it will be cheeper. If you want a better working watch look for relatively new (Not used for years) movement that was properly serviced. Shturmanskie were issued as military equipment and most were used for many years in harsh conditions. Post your choices before buying would be happy to opine. Good luck.


Yeah I meant that I would still be interested in a watch if parts had been replaced after normal wear and tear (and that the radium illumination apparently caused significant damage to the dial so I wouldn be tolerant of a swapped dial), rather than a franken watch cobbled together out of bits and bobs.

I don't know if that makes sense, but that was how I rationalized it haha


----------



## Straight_time

Apzlsoxk said:


> View attachment 15459433
> View attachment 15459434
> 
> Before I get got again: I'm just double checking on this kirovskie. I really can't find anything wrong with it.


Except the modern reproduction dial... 
(one of the wheels is a 2ChZ production and the decorated bezel comes from a pocket watch, but these are details of lesser importance compared to the other red flag issue).


----------



## Apzlsoxk

Straight_time said:


> Except the modern reproduction dial...
> (one of the wheels is a 2ChZ production and the decorated bezel comes from a pocket watch, but these are details of lesser importance compared to the other red flag issue).


What gives the dial away as a reproduction? I was checking out another user's 1stSWF collection and the dial typefaces seemed pretty spot on, albeit it more matched the pocket watches than anything.






First State Watch Factory | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: First State Watch Factory, 1GChZ, Type-1, Kirovskie, Kirova, Kirov, 1ГЧЗ, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





Unless I'm just looking at the wrong bits of information, or that there were no wristwatches manufactured with that typeface at all.


----------



## Ligavesh

So what do the experts have to say about this shiny Luch?


----------



## RobNJ

Ligavesh said:


> So what do the experts have to say about this shiny Luch?


Assuming that it has a blue face with yellow paint on the hands and markers - the photo makes it tough to tell - I think it is a pretty good export version of a known Luch model from the 1980s. I'd look closely at the wear on the lugs and the case edges - I can't tell how bad that is from the photos.


----------



## Ligavesh

RobNJ said:


> Assuming that it has a blue face with yellow paint on the hands and markers - the photo makes it tough to tell - I think it is a pretty good export version of a known Luch model from the 1980s. I'd look closely at the wear on the lugs and the case edges - I can't tell how bad that is from the photos.


It does look bluish from some angles:










Anyway, I bought it, it was relatively cheap and very nice looking. Now I'm deleting my ebay app and never going there again for a year at least.


----------



## Fridholm

I finally got me a Strela! Well, at least I've paid about $300 for one, it hasn't arrived yet. The pictures are from the ad. Serial number 04860, the poljot sanserif dial and hands seem legit, but I'm not sure if it matches the low serial number. Any opinions on the original/franken ratio of this one? 
According to the seller, the chronograph runs but sometimes hesitates to start, any known issues that cause this, or could it be that it just needs some clean+lube?


----------



## Craig ms

Hello Russia experts !

I got this in a flea market in Poland - 10 euro, was makeweight in another purchase. I love the ruby colored dial and i know a guy in Warsaw who does a good job of restoring the old dials.

but I don't know what this watch is - there are similar examples on the net but I can't see any with the same hour markings at the 12, 3, 6 and 9. In fact the hour markings look more like a Glashutte spezimatic.

is it legit or lasted together from different bits ?

it works and keeps good time


----------



## Odessa200

Craig ms said:


> Hello Russia experts !
> 
> I got this in a flea market in Poland - 10 euro, was makeweight in another purchase. I love the ruby colored dial and i know a guy in Warsaw who does a good job of restoring the old dials.
> 
> but I don't know what this watch is - there are similar examples on the net but I can't see any with the same hour markings at the 12, 3, 6 and 9. In fact the hour markings look more like a Glashutte spezimatic.
> 
> is it legit or lasted together from different bits ?
> 
> it works and keeps good time
> 
> View attachment 15463874
> View attachment 15463875


This is a Vostok dial but the watch is in the wrong case and with the wrong hands. So at least 3 watches here.


----------



## Craig ms

Thanks Odessa - I thought the English on the caseback was weird. I will think about what I can do with that - maybe a new case and a polish and stick it on a nato.


----------



## thewatchadude

Hi all, can this be genuine? Shouldn't it be in a 020 case?


----------



## Odessa200

Craig ms said:


> Thanks Odessa - I thought the English on the caseback was weird. I will think about what I can do with that - maybe a new case and a polish and stick it on a nato.


many soviet watches made for export have such backs. No issues.


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Hi all, can this be genuine? Shouldn't it be in a 020 case?


It might be, the only images for this dial are in the 1992 calendar and 1993 catalogue both in the 020 case, but it could be that this dial was put in late 320 cases just before it was replaced by the 020 case, the only way to prove this of course is to find a passport for a 320417, but if you want a "safe" collection you could always put it a 020 case to match the catalogue image...

From the '93 catalogue...


----------



## cherrypie

Good evening! Just got this from a seller and I'm wondering if it is a genuine Raketa watch. Can anyone please







help?


----------



## Odessa200

cherrypie said:


> Good evening! Just got this from a seller and I'm wondering if it is a genuine Raketa watch. Can anyone please
> View attachment 15470559
> help?


Welcome to the forum. No, this is not a genuine Raketa. The numbers are added. Can you add more photos of the back and the movement? Unfortunately a quite rare dial is ruined. This is how this watch supose to look.


----------



## cherrypie

Thanks! I thought the same...


----------



## fla

Craig ms said:


> Hello Russia experts !
> 
> I got this in a flea market in Poland - 10 euro, was makeweight in another purchase. I love the ruby colored dial and i know a guy in Warsaw who does a good job of restoring the old dials.
> 
> but I don't know what this watch is - there are similar examples on the net but I can't see any with the same hour markings at the 12, 3, 6 and 9. In fact the hour markings look more like a Glashutte spezimatic.
> 
> is it legit or lasted together from different bits ?
> 
> it works and keeps good time
> 
> View attachment 15463874
> View attachment 15463875


There is a simple hint for such civilian Vostoks and maybe also for Poljots: red/bordeaux or the shown brown (faded bordeaux) dials have to be in gold-plated cases, whereas blue and green dials have to be in chrome-plated ones. It could be some exeptions that I can't remember at the moment but basically that's the rule.


----------



## thewatchadude

Avidfan said:


> It might be, the only images for this dial are in the 1992 calendar and 1993 catalogue both in the 020 case, but it could be that this dial was put in late 320 cases just before it was replaced by the 020 case, the only way to prove this of course is to find a passport for a 320417, but if you want a "safe" collection you could always put it a 020 case to match the catalogue image...
> 
> From the '93 catalogue...
> View attachment 15465836


Thanks. Here it is recased in a 020. Sorry for the quality of the picture, lightning was low in the room.

The bezel isn't exactly the right one but at least it has the lume dot. I thought the crown was that of a Komandirskie, then looking closer at the catalogue photo it seems OK to me (even though it's in bad shape and may be changed at some point).



The insides of both the movement and the case surprised me a bit. I'll take and post pictures when I have time to.


----------



## Avidfan

thewatchadude said:


> Thanks. Here it is recased in a 020. Sorry for the quality of the picture, lightning was low in the room.
> 
> The bezel isn't exactly the right one but at least it has the lume dot. I thought the crown was that of a Komandirskie, then looking closer at the catalogue photo it seems OK to me (even though it's in bad shape and may be changed at some point).


I would say your bezel is also correct, it's not the same one as shown in the catalogue or on the '92 calendar but it's the type found on most Soviet and early post-Soviet 020 cases...

As for the crown it should be of the steel crimped type with a copper stem, the only type of crown that's correct for a Soviet 020 IMHO...


----------



## Shevek

Hi all,
I'm very new to collecting, but am very interested in the Vostok precision watches and 2809 movement. I'd love to have a good example. I found the following advertised on Ebay. Could anyone give me an opinion on originality, and the state of the movement? It almost looks as if the hair spring is a bit wonky. Also, is $195.00 (the asking price) considered good value for a watch of this kind?


----------



## Odessa200

Shevek said:


> Hi all,
> I'm very new to collecting, but am very interested in the Vostok precision watches and 2809 movement. I'd love to have a good example. I found the following advertised on Ebay. Could anyone give me an opinion on originality, and the state of the movement? It almost looks as if the hair spring is a bit wonky. Also, is $195.00 (the asking price) considered good value for a watch of this kind?


welcome to the forum. The watch looks authentic and correct to me. As far as the state of the movement: it looks clean but has a few blemishes. This is a professional seller who sells a lot. Why don't you ask him for a timegrapher reading? Lets see what he says. 
195$ is not that cheep for this watch (not a bargain) but an acceptable in my few if the watch was serviced recently and shows a decent timegrapher reading. 
i also agree that the hairspring looks a bit off center. I would ask for a close up photo of the hairspring.

these watches come on ebay regularly. No need to rush...


----------



## Shevek

Odessa200 said:


> welcome to the forum. The watch looks authentic and correct to me. As far as the state of the movement: it looks clean but has a few blemishes. This is a professional seller who sells a lot. Why don't you ask him for a timegrapher reading? Lets see what he says.
> 195$ is not that cheep for this watch (not a bargain) but an acceptable in my few if the watch was serviced recently and shows a decent timegrapher reading.
> i also agree that the hairspring looks a bit off center. I would ask for a close up photo of the hairspring.
> 
> these watches come on ebay regularly. No need to rush...


Many thanks for your helpful advice!


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm gonna return this watch (thankfully I can), but I wanted your opinion - in which watch's case did they stuck this old Raketa into?


----------



## Ligavesh

Second question, what's your opinion on this Vympel? No movement pic, it just says 21 stones in the description (as on the dial lol, tbh I'd bet the guy who sells these doesn't even open them).




























PS. Do the holding pins always protrude through the dial on these TV Raketas? I've seen it many times:










Thanks!


----------



## Wazowie

Is this a legit Raketa watch or a franken i'm moustly doubting the case of the watch, does anyone perhaps have a catalogue of this watch htat would be great


----------



## fla

Ligavesh said:


> I'm gonna return this watch (thankfully I can), but I wanted your opinion - in which watch's case did they stuck this old Raketa into?
> 
> View attachment 15475255
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475257
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475255










[/QUOTE]


----------



## Ligavesh

fla said:


> View attachment 15475523


[/QUOTE]
Mine looks a bit different as the 'fat' parts of the golden bezel are at the top and bottom, on this one they're on the sides and the thin parts are top and bottom... Maybe a different Chaika model?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Second question, what's your opinion on this Vympel? No movement pic, it just says 21 stones in the description (as on the dial lol, tbh I'd bet the guy who sells these doesn't even open them).
> 
> View attachment 15475266
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475267
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475268
> 
> 
> PS. Do the holding pins always protrude through the dial on these TV Raketas? I've seen it many times:
> 
> View attachment 15475269
> 
> 
> Thanks!


No, this is badly repair dial. 
no opinion on vimpel as this watch is outside of my interest (mass produced modern watch)


----------



## fla

Mine looks a bit different as the 'fat' parts of the golden bezel are at the top and bottom, on this one they're on the sides and the thin parts are top and bottom... Maybe a different Chaika model?
[/QUOTE]

Mentally rotate the detachable gold-plated bezel by 90 degree.


----------



## fla

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15475288
> 
> 
> Is this a legit Raketa watch or a franken i'm moustly doubting the case of the watch, does anyone perhaps have a catalogue of this watch htat would be great


Look at the post 1589 of this thread, this is the correct or 'almost' correct case for your sector dial. 'Almost' is because of there are several such 'frog' 2603 Raketa's cases that do differ from each other in small details.


----------



## Ligavesh

fla said:


> Mine looks a bit different as the 'fat' parts of the golden bezel are at the top and bottom, on this one they're on the sides and the thin parts are top and bottom... Maybe a different Chaika model?


Mentally rotate the detachable gold-plated bezel by 90 degree.
[/QUOTE]
You mean that thing turns? I'll try it right now.

edit: it doesn't turn... is it frankenised to be horizontal? cause all models of Chaika I see have that bezel vertically positioned - I would gladly replace the inside with a Chaika dial and movement ( I suppose Raketa's 2609?) but I can't find a dial that's correctly possitioned.

edit2: okay, someone detached it and again attached it 'horizontally'... tbh, if it were cheaper, I would've looked for a Chaika dial , removed the lettering and put it in instead of the Raketa dial, cause the case looks very good... but not for the price, too expensive for a franken, it's going back


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> No, this is badly repair dial.
> no opinion on vimpel as this watch is outside of my interest (mass produced modern watch)


Could you elaborate a bit on Vympel? Do they make watches with Chinese movements or what exactly is the problem with them? Do you know what movement they use(d) in the 90's with 21 stones (supposedly the watch is from the 90s)?

I tried google but I find next to nothing, not an official page, nothing.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Could you elaborate a bit on Vympel? Do they make watches with Chinese movements or what exactly is the problem with them? Do you know what movement they use(d) in the 90's with 21 stones (supposedly the watch is from the 90s)?
> 
> I tried google but I find next to nothing, not an official page, nothing.


i do not know much about these Vimples. I only know that a)it is not a Soviet Vimpel b)has nothing to do with the Soviet Vimpel c)was produced fairly recently in Belorussia. Sorry cannot help more.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> i do not know much about these Vimples. I only know that a)it is not a Soviet Vimpel b)has nothing to do with the Soviet Vimpel c)was produced fairly recently in Belorussia. Sorry cannot help more.


what movement did the Soviet Vympels with a date complication have?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> what movement did the Soviet Vympels with a date complication have?


no such thing. Soviet Vimplel is 2209. Was made in 1961-63/64. Then it became Poljot and Luch. Never with Calendar. It would be good if Minsk factory give this watch a new name (but I guess someone wanted to capitalize on an established brand name). Hence we have 2 completely different Vimpels.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> no such thing. Soviet Vimplel is 2209. Was made in 1961-63/64. Then it became Poljot and Luch. Never with Calendar. It would be good if Minsk factory give this watch a new name (but I guess someone wanted to capitalize on an established brand name). Hence we have 2 completely different Vimpels.


So this movement is completely unknown? What Soviet/Russian movement with date would have 21 stones? Maybe Chinese? The hands btw look like out of a Komandirskie ( except the seconds hand)...

edit: found a pic of the movement from another similar Vympel on Etsy, anyone knows what it is?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> So this movement is completely unknown? What Soviet/Russian movement with date would have 21 stones? Maybe Chinese? The hands btw look like out of a Komandirskie ( except the seconds hand)...
> 
> edit: found a pic of the movement from another similar Vympel on Etsy, anyone knows what it is?
> 
> View attachment 15475887


this is a late (90s) Russian Slava movement 2414. I doubt it is original to this watch. Probably used cause it fits


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is a late (90s) Russian Slava movement 2414. I doubt it is original to this watch. Probably used cause it fits


You know, I am tempted to buy it, franken or not, cause it seems that it's so rare that there are literally no other examples on the internet and I like the looks of it... and when I know what the movement is, if there are problems in the future I could adress them. It seems to have an acryllic glass which I also like... Thanks a lot!


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> You know, I am tempted to buy it, franken or not, cause it seems that it's so rare that there are literally no other examples on the internet and I like the looks of it... and when I know what the movement is, if there are problems in the future I could adress them. It seems to have an acryllic glass which I also like... Thanks a lot!


You might find this old thread of interest: Alkor-Vostok it features a couple of 1990's Vimple both with Slava 2414 movements but the watch in post #1 I believe has the wrong back (Alkor-Vostok), there really is very little out there on the history of these and trying to research the chaos of 1990's production is almost impossible but post #5 I believe tells you of their origins...

But I would say if you like it buy it!


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> You might find this old thread of interest: Alkor-Vostok it features a couple of 1990's Vimple both with Slava 2414 movements but the watch in post #1 I believe has the wrong back (Alkor-Vostok), there really is very little out there on the history of these and trying to research the chaos of 1990's production is almost impossible but post #5 I believe tells you of their origins...
> 
> But I would say if you like it buy it!


thanks a lot, that was a lot of help

it seems it's a 'factory franken' watch, but that has a charm of it's own I think - and it's a Russian movement in a (White)Russian watch, so all good


----------



## Chascomm

Ligavesh said:


> Second question, what's your opinion on this Vympel? No movement pic, it just says 21 stones in the description (as on the dial lol, tbh I'd bet the guy who sells these doesn't even open them).
> 
> View attachment 15475266
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475267
> 
> 
> View attachment 15475268
> 
> 
> Thanks!


This is a Vympel brand watch made by Vitsebsk Instruments, Belarus, in the early 2000s, having a Slava 2414 movement. This is typical of this period when Vympel used movements from many different sources including Japan and China, but particularly Russia. At that time, VI were making a lot of cases for Russian manufacturers so they would use some of the same for their own brand. '21 jewels' and the small date window identify the Slava movement. Other movements found in Vympel watches include Luch, Poljot, Raketa and Vostok.

---edit---
I should add that there is no connection between the Soviet era ultra-thin watches initially branded Vympel and later sold under other names like Luch and Poljot, all of which we colloquially refer to as 'Vympel', and the post-Soviet Belarussian brand Vympel as seen on this watch.

The other thing worth mentioning is that the factory in Vitsebsk is no longer producing watch cases and bracelets and the Vympel brand is not currently in use.


----------



## fla

Odessa200 said:


> No, this is badly repair dial.
> no opinion on vimpel as this watch is outside of my interest (mass produced modern watch)


The dial of this Baker is made of plasic including feet. This is the reason why feet are almost always broken.


----------



## Ligavesh

Is this model legit?


----------



## N I K O L A I

I am not an expert, but I thin this is called Cheburashka. Lots of images like yours if you Google "Raketa Cheburashka".


----------



## N I K O L A I

Greetings, esteemed experts and watch lovers! What we have here is a Pobeda that looks to me like in a very good condition that I consider buying. When I saw the picture of the caliber, I immediately saw resemblance to Sturmanskie (3 recessed jewels) and asked whether it hacks, to which the seller responded positively. I do not know much about watches, but I was pretty sure Pobedas were non-hacking. I am also a bit concerned with the hour and minute hands. Seem too short to me and the shape is a bit unusual to me...can somebody help here? Thanks a million. Pictures:


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Greetings, esteemed experts and watch lovers! What we have here is a Pobeda that looks to me like in a very good condition that I consider buying. When I saw the picture of the caliber, I immediately saw resemblance to Sturmanskie (3 recessed jewels) and asked whether it hacks, to which the seller responded positively. I do not know much about watches, but I was pretty sure Pobedas were non-hacking. I am also a bit concerned with the hour and minute hands. Seem too short to me and the shape is a bit unusual to me...can somebody help here? Thanks a million. Pictures:
> 
> View attachment 15478927
> View attachment 15478926


sorry.... but this is franken. 
1) hour and minute hands are from different models.
2) balance is a modern one without screws. So I doubt you will see a decent precision. In my experience I had to correct and use the right balance in all such cases.
3) It resembles Shturmanskie (cause this is basically same caliber) and potentially has part from it (if it hacks indeed). Shturmanskie has 5 digits serial and clear ratchet wheel.
4) dial looks too good and the text is not that straight.... potentially reprint. Look how the text is positioned in the catalog.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Thanks a lot, Odessa! I seem to be a magnet of Franken watches recently...probably due to my keen interest in buying one...How about this one? I think it adheres to the catalog pictures shown above? Thanks a lot!


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Thanks a lot, Odessa! I seem to be a magnet of Franken watches recently...probably due to my keen interest in buying one...How about this one? I think it adheres to the catalog pictures shown above? Thanks a lot!
> View attachment 15479256
> 
> 
> View attachment 15479257


We all attracted to fakes cause they look better...  
This watch is much better. Crown is wrong but not horribly off from what it should be. Can be replaced maybe later. 
a bit hard to see the balance. Maybe there are another photo? Or you can ask the seller for a photo when watch is not running.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Ligavesh said:


> Is this model legit?
> 
> View attachment 15478174


I think I just saw a watch identical to yours in this catalogue: Буклет часов Ракета, 1977 - Машприборинторг, on page 11 out of 12. Catalogue is downloadable here: Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com. Model 351537, but looks like they did not have RAKETA written on the dial. Could be just a variation.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Odessa200 said:


> We all attracted to fakes cause they look better...
> This watch is much better. Crown is wrong but not horribly off from what it should be. Can be replaced maybe later.
> a bit hard to see the balance. Maybe there are another photo? Or you can ask the seller for a photo when watch is not running.


Here is the picture. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Here is the picture. Thanks!
> View attachment 15482778


this is a correct balance. Good.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Comrades, this is a big one... could be my purchase of the year. I think all hallmarks are there, including lack of Geneva stripes on this supposedly early Sturmanskie model. Many thanks for your time!


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Comrades, this is a big one... could be my purchase of the year. I think all hallmarks are there, including lack of Geneva stripes on this supposedly early Sturmanskie model. Many thanks for your time!
> View attachment 15482904
> View attachment 15482903


looks good. Just paint the seconds hand in red.


----------



## Aron_12345

deleted


----------



## elsoldemayo

All but no. 7 look like they have fake dials although the pictures on some of them make it difficult to be sure. If you look at the indices on no. 7, you will see the sides of the slashes are straight whereas on the others they appear curved,


----------



## Aron_12345

hello again,

First of all thanks for the community's help, howver i am still hunting for a de luxe watch (2209).

Was wondering if the following posts of ebay are legit?








Poljot De Luxe Dress Men's ULTRA SLIM Mechanical WristWatch Vintage Style USSR | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot De Luxe Dress Men's ULTRA SLIM Mechanical WristWatch Vintage Style USSR at the best online prices at eBay!



www.ebay.com.au













Vintage Ultra Slim USSR Early Poljot De Luxe Watch 23 Jewels 1mchz 2209 Au20 for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Ultra Slim USSR Early Poljot De Luxe Watch 23 Jewels 1mchz 2209 Au20 at the best online prices at eBay!



www.ebay.com.au


----------



## elsoldemayo

The black dial has the curved edges on the indices so fake. Second one the dial looks good and I think the case & movement are ok.


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone know anything about this, never seen such a Slava before, looks like a Slava in a Vostok case or something...


----------



## Novatime

Hi all, I'm looking for advice on how to distinguish a genuine 70s/80s Raketa Baker from a fake or franken - what are the 'tells'? I've read up on what I can here at WUS and elsewhere. There are many on ebay/etsy in various states of age, repair and fidelity and I'm looking for one in good condition (especially the 2609HA movement, and case), with a genuine dial. For example, it looks like examples from the 70s generally have 'CAEAAHO B _CCCP' _on the dial and 'Made in USSR' on 80s/export models (although I understand from the Raketa Baker origin story that this model was originally designed for export to the UK). Also I've seen at least two different styles in the Raketa logo, and also the 3d indices which on many are solid rectangles with a triangular slope down towards the centre of the dial, whereas some others are just flat, shallower rectangles with no slope. Here's an example of one that just looks wrong to me:








Source: Raketa Baker Russian Day Date Wrist Watch 2609 USSR 16 j | eBay. To be fair the seller does state that the watch has a new case and crystal but I mainly see multiple issues or at least potential flags in the dial, hands and elsewhere: 1. wrong Raketa logo?; 2. "CCCP" and not "CAEAAHO B _CCCP";_ 3. the crosshair logo above the 6 position which I have not seen on other examples; 4. perfect condition dial, described as mint condition but could be new/fake; 5. new hands?; 6: gold hands and indices on a silver dial?
Compare that one to this: 








Source: Silver RAKETA Baker Retro TV Men Analog Soviet Casual Wristwatch USSR 1970s Rare | eBay, which shows aging to the case, 3d inwards sloping indices, aging to hands and crystal. It's described as 70s but has MADE IN USSR on the dial, is this normal?
Thanks folks for your advice and opinions. Apologies if the way I have asked for advice here is wrong, I'm still pretty new to WUS.


----------



## 979greenwich

I think that in the case of the Baker Raketa it's harder to find a franken than an original, being this is one of the cheapest USSR watches out there. Said that, the first one looks wrong to me; the font, crosshairs at 6, the hands, especially the second...
Here are some of mine, original to my knowledge, so do compare. Movement should be bevelled.


----------



## Odessa200

actually I see most of the Bakers franked. Wrong crown. Wrong movement. Wrong HANDs are super popular.

ignore different font for the Raketa logo. Ignore CCCP or Made in CCCP. These are all legit variations. But look at the catalog and make sure the crystal, hamds/dial, movement is correct. Back cover should always be empty.

1st from the question is wrong on many points. 2nd looks good



979greenwich said:


> I think that in the case of the Baker Raketa it's harder to find a franken than an original, being this is one of the cheapest USSR watches out there. Said that, the first one looks wrong to me; the font, crosshairs at 6, the hands, especially the second...
> Here are some of mine, original to my knowledge, so do compare. Movement should be bevelled.


----------



## Dobby911

Is this Raketa original? I read plenty of articles but I'm still not sure.
Thanks for help


----------



## Odessa200

Looks good to me (assuming it has correct movement)



Dobby911 said:


> Dobby911 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this Raketa original? I read plenty of articles but I'm still not sure.
> Thanks for help
> View attachment 15491615
> 
> View attachment 15491616
> 
> View attachment 15491617
Click to expand...


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me (assuming it has correct movement)


Odessa, what about that Slava I have up there, have you seen anything like it?


----------



## AaParker

Quick question about Rodina hands. I've seen quite a few examples with lumed hands on the lattice pattern dial. But there's no lume on the indices. I'm pretty sure this is not a correct configuration, but I'm double checking. I think the hands are from a different watch that has lumed indices. Thank you! 🙂


----------



## AaParker

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know anything about this, never seen such a Slava before, looks like a Slava in a Vostok case or something...
> 
> View attachment 15488454
> 
> 
> View attachment 15488457
> 
> 
> View attachment 15488460


It's Russian, but I don't see it in the 1993 catalog. Maybe it's later? Some Slava catalogs are available here: Исторические каталоги часов СЛАВА 🙂


----------



## Ligavesh

AaParker said:


> It's Russian, but I don't see it in the 1993 catalog. Maybe it's later? Some Slava catalogs are available here: Исторические каталоги часов СЛАВА 🙂


Thanks, but I can't find it, but from the shapes of other models I guess this shape is possible? although golden crown on a silver watch?

anyway, I'm in no hurry, other than the group buy I'm on a break for buying anything over 50 euros per month


----------



## Maxsterr

Anyone have experience or catalogue of this Raketa antarctic 24 hour watch?








Vintage USSR watch Raketa Polar Antarctic 24 Hours | eBay


<p>On working condition .Cosmetic condition on the photo</p><p>keeps time </p><br><p>If you have any questions you can ask me</p>



www.ebay.com












Soviet Rare reloj Raketa 24 hours explorador polar rusian watch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Soviet Rare reloj Raketa 24 hours explorador polar rusian watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com












Vintage USSR watch Raketa Polar Antarctic 24 Hours | eBay


<p>On working condition ,keeps time .Cosmetic condition on the photo</p><br><p>If you have any questions you can ask me</p>



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Odessa, what about that Slava I have up there, have you seen anything like it?


its a Russian dial and Russian movement. Never saw such a design.... no clue.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> its a Russian dial and Russian movement. Never saw such a design.... no clue.


Do you recognize the case, what could it be? A Vostok?


----------



## Odessa200

My turn to ask for a 2nd opinion. 

what do you guys say about exhibit 1 and 2 (2 is only a wrist shot). What is real and what is not. Thanks!






























2nd watch. 







n


----------



## Ligavesh

where's the crown for the inner bezel on the second one? Oh, wait, they both don't have one, sorry.


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyway, goddamn you Odessa, what am I supposed to do with this original dial?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Do you recognize the case, what could it be? A Vostok?


no clue


----------



## Odessa200

1st is overpriced for its condition. Last has a broken crystal. Middle one is Ok.
all look authentic to me (except I am not sure if the 3rd watch was made like this with this dial and black bezel combo. You can see catalog has a diff dial)



Maxsterr said:


> Anyone have experience or catalogue of this Raketa antarctic 24 hour watch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage USSR watch Raketa Polar Antarctic 24 Hours | eBay
> 
> 
> <p>On working condition .Cosmetic condition on the photo</p><p>keeps time </p><br><p>If you have any questions you can ask me</p>
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soviet Rare reloj Raketa 24 hours explorador polar rusian watch | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Soviet Rare reloj Raketa 24 hours explorador polar rusian watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage USSR watch Raketa Polar Antarctic 24 Hours | eBay
> 
> 
> <p>On working condition ,keeps time .Cosmetic condition on the photo</p><br><p>If you have any questions you can ask me</p>
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> 1st is overpriced for its condition. Last has a broken crystal. Middle one is Ok.
> all look authentic to me (except I am not sure if the 3rd watch was made like this with this dial and black bezel combo. You can see catalog has a diff dial)
> 
> View attachment 15492468
> View attachment 15492469


Thank you so much!, i agree that the middle one seems to be the best. Is there a place where everyone finds catalouges of watches?


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Thank you so much!, i agree that the middle one seems to be the best. Is there a place where everyone finds catalouges of watches?








Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com


Страница для бесплатного скачивания каталогов часов СССР. Представлены каталоги советских часов с 1953 года. Раздел постоянно обновляется!




ussr-watch.com


----------



## AaParker

Mispost


----------



## Maxsterr

Is this a real Slava Buran? I could only find one picture of it in 1 1993 catalouge. In the catalogue it has white white markers for the minutes in the ends of the dial. The spaceship also has less wide outlines in the catalogue.
Watch in question: Slava Buran space Shuttle space program vintage Soviet mechanical wrist watch | eBay
Catalogue: Каталог часов Слава, 1993 - Московское АО часы Слава.pdf
Page 2/6
Edit: The thing that i wonder is if the dial is real. Because the hands and the back of the watch looks vintage. But if the dial is fake why would they still fill it with vintage parts


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Is this a real Slava Buran? I could only find one picture of it in 1 1993 catalouge. In the catalogue it has white white markers for the minutes in the ends of the dial. The spaceship also has less wide outlines in the catalogue.
> Watch in question: Slava Buran space Shuttle space program vintage Soviet mechanical wrist watch | eBay
> Catalogue: Каталог часов Слава, 1993 - Московское АО часы Слава.pdf
> Page 2/6


looks good to me except the movement is a mix of Soviet and Russian parts (soviet parts were replaced with parts from a later movement)


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> looks good to me except the movement is a mix of Soviet and Russian parts (soviet parts were replaced with parts from a later movement)


Okay so it is a legit watch but a later serviceman (probably?) has exchanged a few parts to make it work better or something? Is it alot of replaced parts, and how can you tell(unless it is hard to tell apart). Because i bought the watch a few months ago when i was new to soviet watches and the Slava buran was a hard watch to find legit pictures of. But now when you linked me the catalogues i got worried


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Okay so it is a legit watch but a later serviceman (probably?) has exchanged a few parts to make it work better or something? Is it alot of replaced parts, and how can you tell(unless it is hard to tell apart). Because i bought the watch a few months ago when i was new to soviet watches and the Slava buran was a hard watch to find legit pictures of. But now when you linked me the catalogues i got worried


I took a closer look: the movement/part are consistent with the watches released towards the end of USSR. All is good. Some bridges are much cleaner then others. Thats all. Maybe watch was not working and the watchmaker cleaned and oiled just these parts. Maybe replaced. I am a bit surprised he at least did not wipe out the other parts of the movement but maybe we was paid to to as little as possible (frequent request for a pre-sale service).


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> I took a closer look: the movement/part are consistent with the watches released towards the end of USSR. All is good. Some bridges are much cleaner then others. Thats all. Maybe watch was not working and the watchmaker cleaned and oiled just these parts. Maybe replaced. I am a bit surprised he at least did not wipe out the other parts of the movement but maybe we was paid to to as little as possible (frequent request for a pre-sale service).


Thank you for all your help!


----------



## Roman Ukraine

Hello
I would like to say one opinion, a little off topic, but I think it will not be superfluous
Franken does not always mean that the seller wants to deceive you
I sometimes buy 50 -100 -200 watches in one lot, even though I'm not a big seller. Some sellers have thousands of USSR watches.
At the same time, there is no time and material sense to check everything in catalogs, and even more so, to look for completely original parts. If the watch doesn't have a minute hand, I'll just take whichever one is as similar as possible.
But, I'm not talking about cases when "ZIM" for 10 dollars are sold for 100 as "Shturmanskie", using a new dial


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## Madmarcus

This is more of a learning question than a true Franken watch question but perhaps it fits here anyway. How do you tell Soviet movements apart?
























The three images are all from late 50's or early 60's Kamas. The three listings gave different movement numbers even though they should all be 2603 movements and to my very novice eye they look the same in general construction.

If I may add a second question; does the solid ring in the left image versus the hollow spaces with tabbed thin rings in the middle and right images indicate anything such as a non-original case?


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## Odessa200

Madmarcus said:


> This is more of a learning question than a true Franken watch question but perhaps it fits here anyway. How do you tell Soviet movements apart?
> 
> View attachment 15494299
> View attachment 15494300
> View attachment 15494302
> 
> 
> The three images are all from late 50's or early 60's Kamas. The three listings gave different movement numbers even though they should all be 2603 movements and to my very novice eye they look the same in general construction.
> 
> If I may add a second question; does the solid ring in the left image versus the hollow spaces with tabbed thin rings in the middle and right images indicate anything such as a non-original case?


welcome to the forum. Kama is indeed 2603 and all of these are 2603. The numbers you see are the serial numbers of the movements. USSR had calibers printed on some movement but not all and during some years but not always. Caliber is typically 4 digits (not always) with some letters (not always) but serial numbers are usually 5 or 6 digits. Got it?

Kamas are typically in a bayonet case with the metal spacer with round tabs is correct. Triangular tabs are normally found on early Vostok (ChChZ) watches but NOT Kamas.
I have to mention that there were small number of Kamas made NOT in bayonet cases but there is NO catalog to prove it (but there are enough good examples that such release did exist).

also, please attach better images next time because these are not really usable.


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## mightymiloquinn

Odessa200 said:


> Kamas are typically in a bayonet case with the metal spacer with round tabs is correct. Triangular tabs are normally found on early Vostok (ChChZ) watches but NOT Kamas.
> I have to mention that there were small number of Kamas made NOT in bayonet cases but there is NO catalog to prove it (but there are enough good examples that such release did exist).


The 1960 catalog seems to distinguish 4 different case types for Kamas. 190-194. The 194 is the octagonal version. The catalog refers to the 191 & 192 as having bayonet case backs and a 33.5mm diameter. The 190 is noted as 34mm but there is no reference to the case back (I assume that means this is the snap back case style). There is a thread here somewhere that discusses the different cases I think.


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## Odessa200

mightymiloquinn said:


> The 1960 catalog seems to distinguish 4 different case types for Kamas. 190-194. The 194 is the octagonal version. The catalog refers to the 191 & 192 as having bayonet case backs and a 33.5mm diameter. The 190 is noted as 34mm but there is no reference to the case back (I assume that means this is the snap back case style). There is a thread here somewhere that discusses the different cases I think.


This is correct but for whatever reason the editor of this catalog decided to skim on the details and it is not that clear. But as I said, there are some legit snap backs Kamas exist. Although personally for me: Kama is a bayonet case! This is the mainstream and classical Kama!


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## Maxsterr

Any expert on the Zarja ice skating watch?
There's a few for sale on Ebay, but im not sure which ones may be real (if there are any). They go for a really low price imo. I ask because i couldn't find a lot of info about the watch when i googled.








VINTAGE Soviet Russia Watch ZARIA Ice Skating 1970-s Boy's Child wristwatch W125 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VINTAGE Soviet Russia Watch ZARIA Ice Skating 1970-s Boy's Child wristwatch W125 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com












1980's RARE COLLECTIBLE USSR WATCH ZARJA ZARIA ZARYA ICE SKATING | eBay


The watch is in good working condition. The bracelet is fitted to the child’s hand; the middle or adult arm will be small. A condition on a REAL photo. Look at the original photos! You receive what you see.



www.ebay.com












1970s ZARJA ICE SKATING 21 JEWELS MEN'S WRISTWATCH USSR SOVIET ERA | eBay


MADE IN USSR. Ukrposhta announced that it usually takes.



www.ebay.com





I have noticed the watch is rather small but it's just too nice i have to get one if they seem legit


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## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Any expert on the Zarja ice skating watch?
> There's a few for sale on Ebay, but im not sure which ones may be real (if there are any). They go for a really low price imo. I ask because i couldn't find a lot of info about the watch when i googled.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VINTAGE Soviet Russia Watch ZARIA Ice Skating 1970-s Boy's Child wristwatch W125 | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VINTAGE Soviet Russia Watch ZARIA Ice Skating 1970-s Boy's Child wristwatch W125 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1980's RARE COLLECTIBLE USSR WATCH ZARJA ZARIA ZARYA ICE SKATING | eBay
> 
> 
> The watch is in good working condition. The bracelet is fitted to the child’s hand; the middle or adult arm will be small. A condition on a REAL photo. Look at the original photos! You receive what you see.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1970s ZARJA ICE SKATING 21 JEWELS MEN'S WRISTWATCH USSR SOVIET ERA | eBay
> 
> 
> MADE IN USSR. Ukrposhta announced that it usually takes.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have noticed the watch is rather small but it's just too nice i have to get one if they seem legit


all of these are real. Same for almost every other Zarya you can find. There is no money in these watches hence no one is faking them. These are simple mass produced watches for juniors. Personally I would only consider a NOS with papers.


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> all of these are real. Same for almost every other Zarya you can find. There is no money in these watches hence no one is faking them. These are simple mass produced watches for juniors. Personally I would only consider a NOS with papers.


Ah, that makes sense. So you mean something like this: ® NOS. new watch ZARIA. ZARJA. figure skater. MADE IN USSR. SOVIET. RUSSIA. | eBay , i found 2 NOS when i searched better. The number on the back matches the paper.


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Ah, that makes sense. So you mean something like this: ® NOS. new watch ZARIA. ZARJA. figure skater. MADE IN USSR. SOVIET. RUSSIA. | eBay , i found 2 NOS when i searched better. The number on the back matches the paper.


yes. You see that extra 10$ or so will get you a much better watch in a state that you can keep in your collection!


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> yes. You see that extra 10$ or so will get you a much better watch in a state that you can keep in your collection!


It's insane. That's why i have become interested in soviet watches, so much watch and history for a low price


----------



## AaParker

Not a franken question but a can you help identify the movement question. I think it is Soviet in a non-Soviet watch, but I'm not 100% sure. Thank you!


----------



## Chascomm

It looks familiar. Not Soviet, but either Japanese or Swiss. Time to consult Ranfft's movement catalogue...


----------



## AaParker

Chascomm said:


> It looks familiar. Not Soviet, but either Japanese or Swiss. Time to consult Ranfft's movement catalogue...


Thank you! 🙂


----------



## Chascomm

Chascomm said:


> It looks familiar. Not Soviet, but either Japanese or Swiss. Time to consult Ranfft's movement catalogue...


Actually I was wrong. It's French. France Ebauches FE 140-1





bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: FE 140-1







www.ranfft.de


----------



## AaParker

Thank you!


----------



## RobNJ

mightymiloquinn said:


> The 1960 catalog seems to distinguish 4 different case types for Kamas. 190-194. The 194 is the octagonal version. The catalog refers to the 191 & 192 as having bayonet case backs and a 33.5mm diameter. The 190 is noted as 34mm but there is no reference to the case back (I assume that means this is the snap back case style). There is a thread here somewhere that discusses the different cases I think.


I was part of an old thread on Kama jeweling and case design some time (why it looks like seven years) ago:









Kama jeweling


I have this coming in the mail. Seller's photos: With the crystal cleaned up, I think the face will be pretty good, up to and including original (likely radium, I'm aware) lume. The bayonet caseback is present, if not shown. And I think the movement is right, although the position of the...




www.watchuseek.com





The conclusion from that thread is that bayonet and snapback case, shock-protected and non-shock protected are all possible in different combinations, with 1960 as an important dividing line. See in particular emoscambio's post #17, which is also derived from the catalog, for a summary.

FWIW, in my possession, Kama 190ChN, design XI, dated 1-57. Snapback case. Not working at present, unfortunately:


----------



## mightymiloquinn

That was definitely the thread I was thinking of. Cheers!


----------



## Maxsterr

Is this authentic? Rare! Russian Komandirskie commanders Soviet mechanical watch USSR military. NEW | eBay
Looks to me like the 341200. But i got confused by his description about the numbers.








Catalougue picture from: Каталог часов Восток, 199Х - ЧЧЗ.pdf


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Is this authentic? Rare! Russian Komandirskie commanders Soviet mechanical watch USSR military. NEW | eBay
> Looks to me like the 341200. But i got confused by his description about the numbers.
> View attachment 15501632
> 
> Catalougue picture from: Каталог часов Восток, 199Х - ЧЧЗ.pdf


Not an expert in these. Here sis a bot better catalog photo.

as you can see bezels are different (and what watch has probably legit) and the seconds hand w/o lume (i think is ok as well). The only thing is the passports: it is for a different style watch and the last digit of the style is corrected. I would assume the papers are fraudulent.


----------



## Maxsterr

I came across this watch today. From studying the catalogue and an earlier post about this watch i have yet to find anything that would say it is a franken. Movement is the right one, dial looks right to me, hands looks right. I am not sure but i guess the case looks right. Maybe someone could confirm those things and have a look at the movement to see if there has been any fiddling with it. And say whether you think it is franken or legit.

Thanks, Vintage Mens Wrist Watch Raketa Compass Rose Wind Watch Collectible USSR | eBay

Catalogue i looked at: Каталог часов Ракета (экспорт), 1991 - АО Петродворцовый часовой завод .pdf








Gyazo


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> I came across this watch today. From studying the catalogue and an earlier post about this watch i have yet to find anything that would say it is a franken. Movement is the right one, dial looks right to me, hands looks right. I am not sure but i guess the case looks right. Maybe someone could confirm those things and have a look at the movement to see if there has been any fiddling with it. And say whether you think it is franken or legit.
> 
> Thanks, Vintage Mens Wrist Watch Raketa Compass Rose Wind Watch Collectible USSR | eBay
> 
> Catalogue i looked at: Каталог часов Ракета (экспорт), 1991 - АО Петродворцовый часовой завод .pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gyazo


Looks right to me.


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> Looks right to me.


Nice. The only weird thing is that i found that the seller has the same watch listed in another buy it now: Rare Men`s Vintage Watch Raketa Compass USSR Mechanical Russian Watch | eBay The exact same pictures but with no shipping cost. But the movement looked good to you?


----------



## jimzilla

Wondering what your opinion is on this 31659 Classic

POLJOT STURMANSKIE 31659 USSR SOVIET WATCH RARE VINTAGE | eBay


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Nice. The only weird thing is that i found that the seller has the same watch listed in another buy it now: Rare Men`s Vintage Watch Raketa Compass USSR Mechanical Russian Watch | eBay The exact same pictures but with no shipping cost. But the movement looked good to you?


Yes, looks good to me.


----------



## Kamburov

jimzilla said:


> Wondering what your opinion is on this 31659 Classic
> 
> POLJOT STURMANSKIE 31659 USSR SOVIET WATCH RARE VINTAGE | eBay


 Hi, comrade jimzilla! Looks like everything matches - watch, markings and papers. The watch has some signs of time and service - markers's lume loss, the chrono hands have some intervention signs. Looks legit, though. Can't comment the price, I own the 3133 chromed model and it can be obtained quite cheap, but the 31659/0410260 (I take it it's the stainless steel case model, 3133/0411260 being the chromed one?) is a different beer, and it has the papers. Maybe someone who owns one can give his/her input. 
To comrade Maxsterr - I second Odessa on the wind rose Raketa, and the 2609.HП movement is the right one for the model. Regulator on the ballance looks a bit strange, being too much on the - setting, which can mean it's a bit magnetized, but I could be wrong. 
I really like that wind rose model, although with my eyesight deteriorating I have a problem with it's legibility. Guess that's off topic, though  Ivan


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, looks good to me.


Thanks. I guess i will buy the one where there isn't any shipping cost. Weird, maybe the seller accidentaly put up 2 sales.


----------



## Novatime

I noticed that an ebay seller has listed multiple Raketa 'Cities' 24hr and several other model watches with various silver and other strongly coloured dials, listed as NOS, never used. I can't see how authentic versions of these watch could possibly be in such almost mint condition. I'm very much new to Russian watches but I am interested in 24hr Raketas. Are these franken/fake and to be avoided? Mechanical USSR watch Raketa"Time Zone" 24 Hr Silver dial Minerall glass | eBay


----------



## reporterreporter

I see the watch in that listing appears to have a 2628.H movement, which is not a 24 hour movement. So, I think it's safe to say franken, and probably fake.


----------



## Odessa200

reporterreporter said:


> I see the watch in that listing appears to have a 2628.H movement, which is not a 24 hour movement. So, I think it's safe to say franken, and probably fake.


 Agree. Looks like the seller is specializing in franken raketas. Hard to find any authentic watch in his lots. Avoid!


----------



## Ligavesh

Need a check on this one:



















The movement inside is 2609 NP (НП). Is it just me, or is the number 12 and the writing "Raketa" a bit skewed/tilted? Should it be like that?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks a match for the 1975 Catalog


----------



## Ligavesh

elsoldemayo said:


> Looks a match for the 1975 Catalog
> 
> View attachment 15511280


Thanks a lot. Yeah, it seems that it's just the shape of the watch that makes you think the lettering is tilted - sometimes you think it's tilted, sometimes it looks straight.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks a lot. Yeah, it seems that it's just the shape of the watch that makes you think the lettering is tilted - sometimes you think it's tilted, sometimes it looks straight.


The question is what HP is there.... not all HPs are same


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> The question is what HP is there.... not all HPs are same


I dunno, this one:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I dunno, this one:
> 
> View attachment 15511696


looking good. This watch in the 1985 catalog ( not 1975 as far as I know). And this is a mid 80s HP movement. All is legit.


----------



## Wazowie

So is this raketa copernicus fake or legit? what are things to watch out for spotting a authentic raketa copernicus, currently i'm looking for one.


----------



## Ligavesh

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15515918
> View attachment 15515919
> 
> 
> So is this raketa copernicus fake or legit? what are things to watch out for spotting a authentic raketa copernicus, currently i'm looking for one.


The movement should be 2609 НП (NP), not 2609 HA. Could be that the original movement wasn't working anymore so it was replaced with a HA. Not an expert on the rest.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> The movement should be 2609 НП (NP), not 2609 HA. Could be that the original movement wasn't working anymore so it was replaced with a HA. Not an expert on the rest.


the rest is Ok but I cannot see the crystal. Add the side photo.


----------



## starjay

Hi all. Need some expertise on this wostok. Frankie or original?
















TIA


----------



## Odessa200

starjay said:


> Hi all. Need some expertise on this wostok. Frankie or original?
> View attachment 15516776
> View attachment 15516777
> 
> 
> TIA


I would say 'original' but lets see what other people say.


----------



## Ligavesh

Thoughts about this Poljot Alarm:



















It's pretty weird looking, it doesn't say 'Poljot' anywhere, very few pictures (no back, no movement). Cal. 2612.1, but no further info (supposedly NOS).


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, what do you think about this Raketa?

I think it's legit, but this caseback belongs to him?


----------



## Ligavesh

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, what do you think about this Raketa?
> 
> I think it's legit, but this caseback belongs to him?


I've seen many old Raketas with that caseback, probably authentic.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thoughts about this Poljot Alarm:
> 
> View attachment 15517489
> 
> 
> View attachment 15517490
> 
> 
> It's pretty weird looking, it doesn't say 'Poljot' anywhere, very few pictures (no back, no movement). Cal. 2612.1, but no further info (supposedly NOS).


Just a guess that it is from this series bit the dial from the square version is placed in the round body.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Just a guess that it is from this series bit the dial from the square version is placed in the round body.
> View attachment 15517781


so a franken, figured as much

again, my Windrose - I've noticed that all the lettering (numbers, letters) on the dial is 'thinner' than on the ones I see on the internet - could that be a sign that it's a fake dial?

My Windrose:









Examples from Internet:


----------



## Ligavesh

Yep, I think it's a fake dial. Mother ****er. I'm always falling for this ****.


----------



## Straight_time

I am no expert of the brand, but if I had to make a wild guess about a possible fake dial among all of those you posted I'd point the finger toward the one "Made in Russia". On yours, quality and detail of printing both seem too high to my eye to be a fake.


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> I am no expert of the brand, but if I had to make a wild guess about a possible fake dial among all of those you posted I'd point the finger toward the one "Made in Russia". On yours, quality and detail of printing both seem too high to my eye to be a fake.


I think all Roses here are real. Just my guess


----------



## Ligavesh

What I'm comparing are the thickness of the lettering ('Raketa' and the numbers) and the thickness of the lines on the drawing of the star, I think they are noticeably thinner on my example...

OTOH, what do I care, if I wanted really a genuine example I'd have to look for an authentic NOS with papers. Till I find something like that (and decide to buy it) I suppose mine is good enough.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What I'm comparing are the thickness of the lettering ('Raketa' and the numbers) and the thickness of the lines on the drawing of the star, I think they are noticeably thinner on my example...
> 
> OTOH, what do I care, if I wanted really a genuine example I'd have to look for an authentic NOS with papers. Till I find something like that (and decide to buy it) I suppose mine is good enough.


I understand but still think your is genuine: made by Raketa. I see dials like this are for sale. These are from the transition time as well: made for the quartz watches that were done at one time. I would imagine during these turbulent times a slightly different matrix was created.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> I understand but still think your is genuine: made by Raketa. I see dials like this are for sale. These are from the transition time as well: made for the quartz watches that were done at one time. I would imagine during these turbulent times a slightly different matrix was created.
> View attachment 15518517


Oh, those quartz watches were original Raketa? I thought those were franken, and seeing that those dials had thinner lines like mine, I thought mine was franken, too. Wew, well that's a releif, thanks a lot.


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm still planning on only buying NOS watches from now on tbh, I'm bored with collecting lots of used beat up ones, always buying a new one cause the old one was missing something...


----------



## Victorv

Ligavesh said:


> I've seen many old Raketas with that caseback, probably authentic.


Many thanks comrade. I think this caseback is original for Raketa too, but for this model?


----------



## Ligavesh

Victorv said:


> Many thanks comrade. I think this caseback is original for Raketa too, but for this model?


Hmmm, you could be right, I saw this on ebay:



















...but it's a very cheapish model, just buy another one and swap the back


----------



## Victorv

Ligavesh said:


> Hmmm, you could be right, I saw this on ebay:
> 
> View attachment 15519266
> 
> 
> View attachment 15519268
> 
> 
> ...but it's a very cheapish model, just buy another one and swap the back


Yes, the one you show I think is the one that belongs to my watch. I will have to look for this caseback, although I also like the one that it has.


----------



## DaLo95

Hey guys

I'm very new to Soviet watches and would like to know if this one is legit.
















Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

Welcome. Yes, legit except the crown is replaced and the crystal looks replaced as well.



DaLo95 said:


> Hey guys
> 
> I'm very new to Soviet watches and would like to know if this one is legit.
> View attachment 15521767
> View attachment 15521768
> 
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## DaLo95

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. Yes, legit except the crown is replaced and the crystal looks replaced as well.


Thank you! would you also be able to tell if this one is legit? and if the price is reasonable?




__





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www.chrono24.ch


----------



## Odessa200

DaLo95 said:


> Thank you! would you also be able to tell if this one is legit? and if the price is reasonable?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Uhrenmarken aus aller Welt auf Chrono24 finden
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.ch


franken. 3 or 4 watches were used to build this one. What is most important it has a wrong balance so watch will never work right.


----------



## DaLo95

Odessa200 said:


> franken. 3 or 4 watches were used to build this one. What is most important it has a wrong balance so watch will never work right.


 Thank you so much. I really would want a 50s watch but seems not that easy to get one then.


----------



## Odessa200

DaLo95 said:


> Thank you so much. I really would want a 50s watch but seems not that easy to get one then.


find a good Pobeda is very hard. These simple mass produced watches are almost always heavily used and went via many repairs. Each repair can contribute to an incorrect part being installed. In many cases people just wanted a working watch....


----------



## DaLo95

Odessa200 said:


> find a good Pobeda is very hard. These simple mass produced watches are almost always heavily used and went via many repairs. Each repair can contribute to an incorrect part being installed. In many cases people just wanted a working watch....


I see. Personally I wouldn't care if it was from another manufacturer as long it was original. Guess NOS is the way to go then?


----------



## Ligavesh

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know anything about this, never seen such a Slava before, looks like a Slava in a Vostok case or something...
> 
> View attachment 15488454
> 
> 
> View attachment 15488457
> 
> 
> View attachment 15488460


bump for info on this Slava!


----------



## Fishbowlninja

I was looking into the Raketa Big Zero watch, and I've been doing some digging around to see what attributes are present in an authentic watch. Below I will add the pictures uploaded by the eBay seller, but from what I've read , I've come to the following conclusions, which could of course be wrong:

Accurate:

2609.HA movement appears to be accurate to an original,
The 0, 3, 6 and 9 appear to have the same style as an original,
The dashes that take place of numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 11 appear to t=be the originals as they have the smooth rounded tips,
The hour and minute hands are thick not thin, and have that rounded ends to them, and the hour hand is short. the second hand is thin, and flares out at the back end,
Winding crown has a slight convex to it and has the same texture on the cylindrical portion,
Case back looks the same as others I've seen, and it has a 6 digit number which I have read to be normal.

Uncertainty:

For me from the provided pictures I find it hard to tell if the case shape and glass/crystal are originals or not. This is where I really need help.
Also, opinions on the strap for originality?

If anyone has something to say about this watch, I appreciate it.


----------



## 979greenwich

I'd rather see a flat than an older, bevelled 2609.HA movement in the Big Zero. Could be factory built with an older leftover movement, but a flat movement is a characteristic of this watch. Unlike bracelets, straps are consumables and don't last 35 years.


----------



## Odessa200

DaLo95 said:


> I see. Personally I wouldn't care if it was from another manufacturer as long it was original. Guess NOS is the way to go then?


 Not really. Good Pobedas are still there. Many Soviet factories made them. You just need to find one that is correct. Keep looking!


----------



## discosmiter

Hello,
I have recently purchased my third Raketa 24h .. .
This one caught my attention with two things:

hour markers that are not printed or painted, but 3D
Red hand for seconds 
I do not know if this is a real thing, so I am kindly asking the community for expert opinion ...
On photo that watch is on the top ...

Another question -on this watch the crystal is replaced, and is replacement crystal does not have nice curve like the original one.
Has anyone found the real deal replacement crystal on EBAY? Many thanks for link if so ...

Best regards
Miša


----------



## Odessa200

discosmiter said:


> Hello,
> I have recently purchased my third Raketa 24h .. .
> This one caught my attention with two things:
> 
> hour markers that are not printed or painted, but 3D
> Red hand for seconds
> I do not know if this is a real thing, so I am kindly asking the community for expert opinion ...
> On photo that watch is on the top ...
> 
> Another question -on this watch the crystal is replaced, and is replacement crystal does not have nice curve like the original one.
> Has anyone found the real deal replacement crystal on EBAY? Many thanks for link if so ...
> 
> Best regards
> Miša
> View attachment 15533705
> 
> 
> View attachment 15533705


The dial is real but it belongs to a different model with the cities. Second hand is a wrong one. Good luck!


----------



## discosmiter

Odessa200 said:


> The dial is real but it belongs to a different model with the cities. Second hand is a wrong one. Good luck!
> View attachment 15534971


Thanks for answer, I was looking and there is definitely more than one watch with same combination on dial.
But for the second hand definitely it is aftermarket, and I will seek for replacement, something aligned with catalog...

Thanks again for answer

Miša


----------



## Ligavesh

discosmiter said:


> Another question -on this watch the crystal is replaced, and is replacement crystal does not have nice curve like the original one.
> Has anyone found the real deal replacement crystal on EBAY? Many thanks for link if so ...


Second this question.

Also, what do we think about this Signal:




























?

thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Second this question.
> 
> Also, what do we think about this Signal:
> 
> View attachment 15540142
> 
> 
> View attachment 15540143
> 
> 
> View attachment 15540145
> 
> 
> ?
> 
> thanks


Fake dial. Sorry.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Fake dial. Sorry.


It's okay - the good thing is I won't spend any more money


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Fake dial. Sorry.


But other than the fake dial, that's how that model should look (case, hands, crown)? Just in case I stumble upon another sometime.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> But other than the fake dial, that's how that model should look (case, hands, crown)? Just in case I stumble upon another sometime.


no. This is what it looks like. There are later models with the stick hands but they have different dial


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> no. This is what it looks like. There are later models with the stick hands but they have different dial
> View attachment 15540282


It's a lovely design - someday I'll get the original one, but it would mean parting with a lot of money, so better leave it for later given my recent purchases...


----------



## Maxsterr

Any sturmanskie experts?








Poljot 3133 Kirova Mens Watch for sale online | eBay


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Poljot watch Chronograph Shturmanskie 3133 "bald" Vintage RUSSIA 1990-99 | eBay


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Poljot 3133 Basilika - Chronograph Analog Watch Russia NOS Vintage for sale online | eBay


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Near Mint Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 3133 Serviced | eBay


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I have looked at a lot of Poljot Sturmanskies for sale on ebay and i am left with these 4 and can no longer tell wheter they are legit or not. The outsides looks legit to me so maybe there could be something in the movement that's wrong


----------



## MattBrace

Maxsterr said:


> Any sturmanskie experts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poljot 3133 Kirova Mens Watch for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot 3133 Kirova Mens Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poljot watch Chronograph Shturmanskie 3133 "bald" Vintage RUSSIA 1990-99 | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot watch Chronograph Shturmanskie 3133 "bald" Vintage RUSSIA 1990-99 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poljot 3133 Basilika - Chronograph Analog Watch Russia NOS Vintage for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot 3133 Basilika - Chronograph Analog Watch Russia NOS Vintage at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Near Mint Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 3133 Serviced | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Near Mint Chronograph POLJOT Sturmanskie cal. 3133 Serviced at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have looked at a lot of Poljot Sturmanskies for sale on ebay and i am left with these 4 and can no longer tell wheter they are legit or not. The outsides looks legit to me so maybe there could be something in the movement that's wrong


Number 2 or 4 not much to choose between them apart from the price.

Cheers...


----------



## Maxsterr

Hello friends! The Pobeda Sputnik recently caught my eye since i think the sputnik is cool. It's really a beautiful watch, however i need some help since many of the sales on ebay are fakes. I have compared the watches to pictures on Sputnik | Watches of the USSR since i guessed those pictures were legit. I am down to 4 watches that i believe looks alright atleast on the outsides according to my comparing. But i have no clue about the movement or smaller details on the dial. Or the case.








Vostok 2605 Gold Plated Au20 Vintage USSR Mechanical Watch 1960s 17 Jewels for sale online | eBay


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Vintage Rare Watch SPUTNIK of the USSR Dial Original! | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Rare Watch SPUTNIK of the USSR Dial Original! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com




https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vostok-Spu...764?hash=item5db9d707f4:g:eek:5wAAOSw8StfrLXlhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Sputnik-Vo...601454?hash=item366dfe12ae:g:pmgAAOSwk4tfp84vThe caseback on nr.3 sticks out. Nr.4 has a different crown. Nr.2 looks like it is too bold on the dial and has a different crown. From my studies i would say nr.1 seems legit, but i would need someone better to say their thing about them


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Hello friends! The Pobeda Sputnik recently caught my eye since i think the sputnik is cool. It's really a beautiful watch, however i need some help since many of the sales on ebay are fakes. I have compared the watches to pictures on Sputnik | Watches of the USSR since i guessed those pictures were legit. I am down to 4 watches that i believe looks alright atleast on the outsides according to my comparing. But i have no clue about the movement or smaller details on the dial. Or the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok 2605 Gold Plated Au20 Vintage USSR Mechanical Watch 1960s 17 Jewels for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vostok 2605 Gold Plated Au20 Vintage USSR Mechanical Watch 1960s 17 Jewels at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Rare Watch SPUTNIK of the USSR Dial Original! | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Rare Watch SPUTNIK of the USSR Dial Original! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vostok-Spu...764?hash=item5db9d707f4:g:eek:5wAAOSw8StfrLXlhttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Sputnik-Vo...601454?hash=item366dfe12ae:g:pmgAAOSwk4tfp84vThe caseback on nr.3 sticks out. Nr.4 has a different crown. Nr.2 looks like it is too bold on the dial and has a different crown. From my studies i would say nr.1 seems legit, but i would need someone better to say their thing about them


1) wrong hands, wrong crown.
2) wrong crown. Not bad but expensive. 
3) fake. Avoid. 
4) hands relumed, seconds had repaired with probably glue and from a different watch (color is too white comparing to the rest of the dial), movement holder has broken taps (minor issue that can be easily fixed by taking the part from countless Kamas).

if that would be me who is buying, I would pick number 2 and look for a right crown that is possible to find (or even keep the one that is on the watch now).


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> 1) wrong hands, wrong crown.
> 2) wrong crown. Not bad but expensive.
> 3) fake. Avoid.
> 4) hands relumed, seconds had repaired with probably glue and from a different watch (color is too white comparing to the rest of the dial), movement holder has broken taps (minor issue that can be easily fixed by taking the part from countless Kamas).
> 
> if that would be me who is buying, I would pick number 2 and look for a right crown that is possible to find (or even keep the one that is on the watch now).


Ah, i didn't notice the hands on nr.1. So Nr. 2 looks good apart from the crown that has been switched/replaced? i was worried over the bold text but maybe that is how it should look. If the movement and dial is good i don't really mind the price since i think it is worth it from my end. And considering 99% of all the sputnik watches i saw were fake i don't know how much better it can get. And my view is that the crown is more of a smaller outer function of the watch and isn't as important as keeping the dial, hands etc, case and movement legit. But i'll look for pobeda crowns on ebay (or other sites?) if i buy it.


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Ah, i didn't notice the hands on nr.1. So Nr. 2 looks good apart from the crown that has been switched/replaced? i was worried over the bold text but maybe that is how it should look. If the movement and dial is good i don't really mind the price since i think it is worth it from my end. And considering 99% of all the sputnik watches i saw were fake i don't know how much better it can get. And my view is that the crown is more of a smaller outer function of the watch and isn't as important as keeping the dial, hands etc, case and movement legit. But i'll look for pobeda crowns on ebay (or other sites?) if i buy it.


This watch is mostly the dial. Movement can be purchased for 20$ if not less: it is a standard ChChZ. All legit Sputniks are from 1959. This movement looks legit (but I cannot see the year but it looks like the last digit is 9). The seller did not mention if the watch was serviced or not. Assume not. Personally I only see a replaced crown. It is a similar one but slightly flatter in my view. Not a big deal if you ask me and quite easy to change if you happen to find a better one. Given the price, I doubt the watch will be snapped by someone fast. So I would ask the seller how it works. He does not look like a professional watch seller so you may not get much info. I would start by offering around 100$ (That is a fair price for this watch in my view) and maybe meeting him in between.


----------



## XAR15

Hey guys.

First post here I'd love to get an opinion if you don't mind, Got this as a gift for someone id appreciate knowing if I did ok or not. 

Second hand is not original I'm 100% sure
Crown is not original I'm almost sure
the rest I tried to follow as much guidance as I could from the online materials but a sanity check is always welcome. Thanks in Advance


----------



## Odessa200

XAR15 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> First post here I'd love to get an opinion if you don't mind, Got this as a gift for someone id appreciate knowing if I did ok or not.
> 
> Second hand is not original I'm 100% sure
> Crown is not original I'm almost sure
> the rest I tried to follow as much guidance as I could from the online materials but a sanity check is always welcome. Thanks in Advance
> 
> View attachment 15546892
> View attachment 15546893
> View attachment 15546894
> View attachment 15546895
> View attachment 15546896
> View attachment 15546897


Welcome to the forum! You did WELL! The watch is all good. Crown is good. Tye only thing is the Seconds hand (from a smaller watch like Moskva). That is quite easy to fix. The dial and other 2 hands are great. Just a note: the watch is radioactive so if you give it to someone make sure they are Ok with this. Cheers!


----------



## XAR15

That is a massive relief, I was concerned that the dial looked too good to be legit it must have been Repro and the mechanism may have been donor. I went into this fairly blind so getting an expert eye on it is invaluable. from my understanding this is pretty much one of the most faked watches out their so I cant thank you enough for putting my mind at ease.

Cheers!


----------



## miroman

XAR15 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> First post here I'd love to get an opinion if you don't mind, Got this as a gift for someone id appreciate knowing if I did ok or not.
> 
> Second hand is not original I'm 100% sure
> Crown is not original I'm almost sure
> the rest I tried to follow as much guidance as I could from the online materials but a sanity check is always welcome. Thanks in Advance
> 
> View attachment 15546897


The ratchet wheel should be with 1MChZ.

The back should be without a guiloche inside, there's no picture of it.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## Odessa200

miroman said:


> The ratchet wheel should be with 1MChZ.
> 
> The back should be without a guiloche inside, there's no picture of it.
> 
> Regards, Miro.


Miro, please reconsider. Type 1, before 1953, clean ratchet wheel.

Agree on the back cover but that we cannot see


----------



## XAR15

Cover is with guilloche, I was lead to believe 17j has the 1Mchz wheel but not 15j?
(again I have had only used guides on here to determine this.)


----------



## miroman

Odessa200 said:


> Miro, please reconsider. Type 1, before 1953, clean ratchet wheel.
> 
> Agree on the back cover but that we cannot see


My fault.
Just checked my examples, clear ratchet wheel.
Memory serves me not that well anymore ...
But I found a movement from 1-54 without dents on rubis, but with working hack-function.
As I remember, 15j Pobeda movement (without dents) is with incompatible parts. 
So it's not possible to 'put' parts for hacking in it. 
Or is it?



























Regards, Miro.


----------



## Odessa200

miroman said:


> My fault.
> Just checked my examples, clear ratchet wheel.
> Memory serves me not that well anymore ...
> But I found a movement from 1-54 without dents on rubis, but with working hack-function.
> As I remember, 15j Pobeda movement (without dents) is with incompatible parts.
> So it's not possible to 'put' parts for hacking in it.
> Or is it?
> View attachment 15547419
> 
> 
> View attachment 15547421
> 
> 
> View attachment 15547425
> 
> 
> Regards, Miro.


The photos are quite small but it looks Ok to me.


----------



## Teksas-Pete

Hi everyone.

I have possibility to buy Ratnik 6E4-1 watch, but i would want to know if its really Ratnik watch, not any civil version of it or a fake. I dont know anything about watches, so maybe you could help. And i only would want to buy real Ratnik.

Can you tell anything about these pictures:
























I would be very happy if someone could tell me is this the real thing or not.

Thanks!


----------



## Ligavesh

Teksas-Pete said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I have possibility to buy Ratnik 6E4-1 watch, but i would want to know if its really Ratnik watch, not any civil version of it or a fake. I dont know anything about watches, so maybe you could help. And i only would want to buy real Ratnik.
> 
> Can you tell anything about these pictures:
> 
> View attachment 15548079
> View attachment 15548080
> View attachment 15548081
> 
> 
> I would be very happy if someone could tell me is this the real thing or not.
> 
> Thanks!


As far as I know there isn't a civilian/military version, it's just one watch. It likes to call itself "Ratnik" ("Warrior"), but it's not officially a military watch; the Russian army doesn't have an 'official' watch, people wear what they want (and it's mostly Casio G-Shocks from what I've heard - which I would probably wear as well if I were in the military).


----------



## Teksas-Pete

Weird, what i've read, there is "official" watch in Ratnik setup. And its this 6E4-1 (that code even comes from Ratnik codes, every item in the Ratnik setup has code, like that 6E4-1). Information can be found all over the internet.

And, what i've read from *this forum*, there are civilian and military versions.

Am i really this wrong?


----------



## Ligavesh

Teksas-Pete said:


> Weird, what i've read, there is "official" watch in Ratnik setup. And its this 6E4-1 (that code even comes from Ratnik codes, every item in the Ratnik setup has code, like that 6E4-1). Information can be found all over the internet.
> 
> And, what i've read from *this forum*, there are civilian and military versions.
> 
> Am i really this wrong?


Well, I might be wrong, but the Russian military does have a project about a modern personal equipment set-up for their soldiers - out of all things it does include a hand-band to slide a watch in - and it's called 'Ratnik', but as far as I know, there is no 'official' watch to go with it, and I think the makers of this watch just picked the name to hype up their product.... but as I said I might be wrong, let's see what other forum members have to say about this.


----------



## Novatime

Excuse me for stepping on the toes of the Ratnik conversation. I recently picked up this Raketa Baker on ebay and would like your opinions on whether it's all OK/legit? I'm still pretty new to Russian watches and this is my first Raketa. It's similar to the 581400 model but has a silver waffle rather than sunburst dial. It seems a common model - perhaps from the 80s (the seller stated 70s in the item description) although I can't find this specific dial version in the Raketa catalogs linked elsewhere in WUS. I'm not sure when they stopped producing the Baker - it seems to disappear from the catalogs I've seen by 1992. Does anyone know when they switched from the heavily-brushed bevelled edges on the top and bottom of the case face as seen in the original 70s models, to the uniform ridge pattern bevelled edges that mine has? Happily the watch is in overall pretty good condition. The dial, seconds hand and 2609.HA movement look correct to me after doing research here on WUS. I will be replacing the crystal as it is cracked in two places - fortunately the cracks are concealed underneath the case. It also has a cracked retaining ring but it still clips into place and holds the movement. It is stamped 02765 underneath the balance wheel, I assume this is the movement serial number? The watch is running reliably after several days, averaging at about +24spd although the previous owner seems to have set the regulator to almost the maximum + setting so I aim to tweak that and see if I can improve on the accuracy.


----------



## haha

Novatime said:


> Excuse me for stepping on the toes of the Ratnik conversation. I recently picked up this Raketa Baker on ebay and would like your opinions on whether it's all OK/legit? I'm still pretty new to Russian watches and this is my first Raketa. It's similar to the 581400 model but has a silver waffle rather than sunburst dial. It seems a common model - perhaps from the 80s (the seller stated 70s in the item description) although I can't find this specific dial version in the Raketa catalogs linked elsewhere in WUS. I'm not sure when they stopped producing the Baker - it seems to disappear from the catalogs I've seen by 1992. Does anyone know when they switched from the heavily-brushed bevelled edges on the top and bottom of the case face as seen in the original 70s models, to the uniform ridge pattern bevelled edges that mine has? Happily the watch is in overall pretty good condition. The dial, seconds hand and 2609.HA movement look correct to me after doing research here on WUS. I will be replacing the crystal as it is cracked in two places - fortunately the cracks are concealed underneath the case. It also has a cracked retaining ring but it still clips into place and holds the movement. It is stamped 02765 underneath the balance wheel, I assume this is the movement serial number? The watch is running reliably after several days, averaging at about +24spd although the previous owner seems to have set the regulator to almost the maximum + setting so I aim to tweak that and see if I can improve on the accuracy.


Congrats for your first Raketa. Looks good to me.
It might be a 681003 that can be found in a 1977 catalog, but i'm not a hundred per cent sure since you can't really see if the dial has a waffle.
Actually it's sure


----------



## Odessa200

haha said:


> Congrats for your first Raketa. Looks good to me.
> It might be a 681003 that can be found in a 1977 catalog, but i'm not a hundred per cent sure since you can't really see if the dial has a waffle.
> Actually it's sure
> View attachment 15548675


second this. Looks good. Just make sure the back cover is clean (no numbers, etc). Cheers


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Well, I might be wrong, but the Russian military does have a project about a modern personal equipment set-up for their soldiers - out of all things it does include a hand-band to slide a watch in - and it's called 'Ratnik', but as far as I know, there is no 'official' watch to go with it, and I think the makers of this watch just picked the name to hype up their product.... but as I said I might be wrong, let's see what other forum members have to say about this.


Agree with Ligavesh. To be the official Army watch it needs to be commissioned by the Army and be issued to the personnel along with guns, uniform, etc. It is not. No watches are issued in Russia now: BYOW policy  
But putting this aside, the watch you picked is all good. I would also want to see inside: should be a Vostok 2416B (cause some models were made using Chinese movements). But this one appears to be in the steel case and should have Vostok inside. Cheers


----------



## Novatime

haha said:


> Congrats for your first Raketa. Looks good to me.
> It might be a 681003 that can be found in a 1977 catalog, but i'm not a hundred per cent sure since you can't really see if the dial has a waffle.
> Actually it's sure
> View attachment 15548675


Thanks @haha and @Odessa200 , it's good to know I got a good one and useful to know the correct model. My caseback cover is clean as well, no numbers on the inside or rear. Also I found that '77 Raketa catalog over on ussr-watch.com. All good, thanks so much.


----------



## Teksas-Pete

Odessa200 said:


> Agree with Ligavesh. To be the official Army watch it needs to be commissioned by the Army and be issued to the personnel along with guns, uniform, etc. It is not. No watches are issued in Russia now: BYOW policy
> But putting this aside, the watch you picked is all good. I would also want to see inside: should be a Vostok 2416B (cause some models were made using Chinese movements). But this one appears to be in the steel case and should have Vostok inside. Cheers


OK. Can you post me some link where i can find this information? I'm just curious because its totally different information what i can find about this.






RATNIK 6Э4-1


I posted a picture of this watch a while back. and decided to do a bit of research. Reading around various English speaking forums, there appears to be quite a bit of contradictory information regarding difference's between civilian and military versions, so here's what I've found out spending a ...




thewatchforum.co.uk










A review article on the set of Ratnik


Modern equipment of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation "Ratnik", in the development of which the latest technologies and materials were used, consists of protective equipment, communications equipment, devices for observation and aiming.




armada-store.com













Ratnik (program) - Wikipedia







en.m.wikipedia.org













Futuristic Russian Military Suit Gets Nuclear-Proof Upgrade


A high-tech, Russian "soldier of the future" combat suit just got a gear upgrade, with a watch capable of withstanding nuclear blasts.




www.google.com





And one more question; i searched this entire forum with word "Ratnik". Is that all rubbish what i found? That this watch i made to army by Vostok? And that there is civilian and army versions? Because thats how people writes here... 

EDIT: this link added






Минобороны заказало 40 тысяч часов для "Ратника"


Минобороны России заказало 40 тысяч наручных часов для боевой экипировки "Ратник". Механические хронометры с автоподзаводом устойчивы к электромагнитному излучению, их механизм рассчитан на 61 тысячу часов непрерывной работы. Разработка часов, включая испытания, продолжалась семь лет




rg.ru


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## Ligavesh

Teksas-Pete said:


> OK. Can you post me some link where i can find this information? I'm just curious because its totally different information what i can find about this.
> 
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> RATNIK 6Э4-1
> 
> 
> I posted a picture of this watch a while back. and decided to do a bit of research. Reading around various English speaking forums, there appears to be quite a bit of contradictory information regarding difference's between civilian and military versions, so here's what I've found out spending a ...
> 
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> thewatchforum.co.uk
> 
> 
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> 
> A review article on the set of Ratnik
> 
> 
> Modern equipment of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation "Ratnik", in the development of which the latest technologies and materials were used, consists of protective equipment, communications equipment, devices for observation and aiming.
> 
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> armada-store.com
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> Ratnik (program) - Wikipedia
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> en.m.wikipedia.org
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> Futuristic Russian Military Suit Gets Nuclear-Proof Upgrade
> 
> 
> A high-tech, Russian "soldier of the future" combat suit just got a gear upgrade, with a watch capable of withstanding nuclear blasts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And one more question; i searched this entire forum with word "Ratnik". Is that all rubbish what i found? That this watch i made to army by Vostok? And that there is civilian and army versions? Because thats how people writes here...
> 
> EDIT: this link added
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Минобороны заказало 40 тысяч часов для "Ратника"
> 
> 
> Минобороны России заказало 40 тысяч наручных часов для боевой экипировки "Ратник". Механические хронометры с автоподзаводом устойчивы к электромагнитному излучению, их механизм рассчитан на 61 тысячу часов непрерывной работы. Разработка часов, включая испытания, продолжалась семь лет
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rg.ru


I beleive this is a case where the watchmakers pushed for the watch to be officially included in the gear and issued to every soldier, but it was probably rejected by the Ministry of Defense in the end. I mean, the soldier can buy it if he wants to, but it won't be issued by the army. Nothing in the watch makes it uniquely connected to the more important systems in the gear - except the name.


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## Teksas-Pete

Ligavesh said:


> I beleive this is a case where the watchmakers pushed for the watch to be officially included in the gear and issued to every soldier, but it was probably rejected by the Ministry of Defense in the end. I mean, the soldier can buy it if he wants to, but it won't be issued by the army. Nothing in the watch makes it uniquely connected to the more important systems in the gear - except the name.


I assume that you have some more information if you think so? Cause that's totally different what the last article says, so you must have more information?

Otherwise, it sound just to be your opinion, not a fact.


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## Odessa200

Teksas-Pete said:


> I assume that you have some more information if you think so? Cause that's totally different what the last article says, so you must have more information?
> 
> Otherwise, it sound just to be your opinion, not a fact.


i do not have an Internet article but I have a group of watch enthusiasts who live in Russia. When this watch discussed before I had asked them if this is the 'official military watch of Russia' and the answer was 'No'. They all told me same as Ligavesh says that Vostok wanted this for obvious reasons but it never happened. They told me that no watches are given to military these days and that Gshock is a choice of many who are doing this type of job.


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## Teksas-Pete

😁 Okay..


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## Ligavesh

Teksas-Pete said:


> 😁 Okay..


No offense, I think you just don't have the experience as to how these military procurement projects are carried out; it's not that I'm especially wise, but I have for a long time followed news out of curiosity about this weapons system and that weapons system or this or that equipment being bought by the military , and how it's a done deal, you also see videos like the one in the link where soldiers are already training with/using this equipment - which are really far from a done deal, but more meant to influence the decision makers that decide what gets bought and what not... And then in the end you hear nothing from that thing in a while and you just discover, more often than not, that the Ministry of Defense has rejected this proposal and won't be buying that and that... And I think that's what's happened with this watch.

But that aside, it looks like a fun watch, I might buy it some day after a "buying break" that I want to have for the time being, as I have amassed so many watches, I can't even store them properly, and need to sell a great deal of them.


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## Teksas-Pete

Okay, if you say so. But did you read that last article what i linked? 

"Разработка часов для "Ратника", включая испытания, продолжалась семь лет. По словам Когтенкова, предприятие уже поставило в войска 15700 "сухопутных" часов и 3000 для морской пехоты."

18700 delivered watches in that point, but still, this never happened?

OK, i let it be


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## elcogollero

What do we think on the authenticity of this big zero comrades? I keep looking and looking but I can't make my mind up... I'm sure there's some detail I'm missing









Para hombres De colección Reloj Urss Raketa URSS PCHZ copernik-Reparado | eBay


Las mejores ofertas para Para hombres De colección Reloj Urss Raketa URSS PCHZ copernik-Reparado están en eBay ✓ Compara precios y características de productos nuevos y usados ✓ Muchos artículos con envío gratis!



www.ebay.es


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## reporterreporter

elcogollero said:


> What do we think on the authenticity of this big zero comrades? I keep looking and looking but I can't make my mind up... I'm sure there's some detail I'm missing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Para hombres De colección Reloj Urss Raketa URSS PCHZ copernik-Reparado | eBay
> 
> 
> Las mejores ofertas para Para hombres De colección Reloj Urss Raketa URSS PCHZ copernik-Reparado están en eBay ✓ Compara precios y características de productos nuevos y usados ✓ Muchos artículos con envío gratis!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.es


Hands and case are wrong. Right type of movement but I'd refer to others to decide.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## reporterreporter

reporterreporter said:


> Hands and case are wrong. Right type of movement but I'd refer to others to decide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


I believe the dial is also reproduction, that quality mark is pretty far off from authentic.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## elcogollero

reporterreporter said:


> Hands and case are wrong. Right type of movement but I'd refer to others to decide.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


My apologies... I'm British (I see you are from the USA) - we have a different sense of humour. As Churchill said we are 2 nations separated by a common language


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## reporterreporter

elcogollero said:


> My apologies... I'm British (I see you are from the USA) - we have a different sense of humour. As Churchill said we are 2 nations separated by a common language


No apologies needed! There was a time not so long ago when I wouldn't have known and projected my own ignorance.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


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## Ligavesh

Teksas-Pete said:


> Okay, if you say so. But did you read that last article what i linked?
> 
> "Разработка часов для "Ратника", включая испытания, продолжалась семь лет. По словам Когтенкова, предприятие уже поставило в войска 15700 "сухопутных" часов и 3000 для морской пехоты."
> 
> 18700 delivered watches in that point, but still, this never happened?
> 
> OK, i let it be


Maybe they bought these 18700 (or some more) and that didn't buy anymore? Has happened with other stuff.

Edit: Also, since you know so much about this watch, maybe you could tell me how does a military version differ from the 'civilian' version of the watch? What's the difference between the 'military' version and these, for example:






Military watches RATNIK







www.vostok-watches24.com





Genuine question, cause I've also been thinking about buying an example.


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## Odessa200

reporterreporter said:


> I believe the dial is also reproduction, that quality mark is pretty far off from authentic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Second this. I think it is hard to find what is right in this watch. Crazy mix... this is a quite common model (although frequently faked): keep looking! Good watches are there!


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## Straight_time

Ligavesh said:


> Maybe they bought these 18700 (or some more) and that didn't buy anymore? Has happened with other stuff.
> 
> Edit: Also, since you know so much about this watch, maybe you could tell me how does a military version differ from the 'civilian' version of the watch? What's the difference between the 'military' version and these, for example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Military watches RATNIK
> 
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> www.vostok-watches24.com
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> 
> 
> Genuine question, cause I've also been thinking about buying an example.


I am no expert on this subject and therefore avoided to give a likely uninformed opinion, but in one of the WUS thread that have been linked before in the debate it's mentioned (by a Vostok Design representative, not exactly the first guy on the street) that other than the specific dial, the factory couldn't install in the WUS' own Project Ratnik the antimagnetic shield, because by doing so the watch would have been identical to the military (exclusive) version -comrade joecool could have more details about this.


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## Ligavesh

Straight_time said:


> I am no expert on this subject and therefore avoided to give a likely uninformed opinion, but in one of the WUS thread that have been linked before in the debate it's mentioned (by a Vostok Design representative, not exactly the first guy on the street) that other than the specific dial, the factory couldn't install in the WUS' own Project Ratnik the antimagnetic shield, because by doing so the watch would have been identical to the military (exclusive) version -comrade joecool could have more details about this.


The description in my link says it's anti-magnetic.


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## cookiemonster94

I was looking for some Komandirskies and came accros that one, is that legit?
Shouldn't it have "SU" on the movement?


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## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> I was looking for some Komandirskies and came accros that one, is that legit?
> Shouldn't it have "SU" on the movement?
> View attachment 15552519
> 
> View attachment 15552520


Not necessarily but the more important is that this watch should have 2234 movement and not 2214.


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## cookiemonster94

So this watch is franken. Bummer.
Would you say that somebody combined the case with another movement?


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## cookiemonster94

Would you still say its original except the movement?
Is there a buyers checklist for soviet MOD issued Komandirskies in the forum?


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## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Would you still say its original except the movement?
> Is there a buyers checklist for soviet MOD issued Komandirskies in the forum?


no, it is not authentic. It also has a wrong case, missing bezel. And the wrong movement.

there is no cheat sheets. If you want an authentic watch you need to do your research. Instead of staring with watches that are on sale you start with the catalogs (that are available for 95% of all soviet watches). Then you can see, for example, how this watch supposed to look and what caliber it supposed to have.

you will see soon that a good authentic watch is rather hard to find and most of the watches that are for sale are franken. Some delibetelly and some naturally due to the fact that no one is manufacturing the parts for decades and watchmasters just use what is available.


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## cookiemonster94

Thank you for your reply, seems like it'll take a while to get a authentic MOD Komandirskie.


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## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Thank you for your reply, seems like it'll take a while to get a authentic MOD Komandirskie.


good watches are there! Do not despair!


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## cookiemonster94

According to the catalogs this one could be legit, I wanted to ask anyways because its suspiciously well preserved.


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## Avidfan

cookiemonster94 said:


> According to the catalogs this one could be legit, I wanted to ask anyways because its suspiciously well preserved.


It has a modern fake dial (where's the calendar window?) and those short lume Komandirskie hands were only introduced around 2004, and of course no Komandirskie ever had the 2209 movement...

This thread might be useful to you if you're looking for an earlier Komandirskie...Early Generation Komandirskie's


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## Straight_time

I think you should look at the catalogs more carefully, the differences between this modern fake and a vintage original are really big.


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## cookiemonster94

Oh boy, thats a can of worms I opened. I'll keep looking and post one when I am more confident.


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## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> According to the catalogs this one could be legit, I wanted to ask anyways because its suspiciously well preserved.
> View attachment 15553292
> 
> View attachment 15553295


Removing my post cause I see it was already answered....


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## runningzombie

Found this very interesting Raketa, not seen much about it, does anyone know if legit and also timing? Rare COLLECTIBLE USSR WATCH RAKETA PHONE DATE DIAL WHITE RED DOT 2628 SERVICED | eBay


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## Ligavesh

runningzombie said:


> Found this very interesting Raketa, not seen much about it, does anyone know if legit and also timing? Rare COLLECTIBLE USSR WATCH RAKETA PHONE DATE DIAL WHITE RED DOT 2628 SERVICED | eBay


Don't post links to the listing itself, it might lead to conflicts if someone were to decide to buy it instead of you, for example. Just post photos or screenshots. That being said, I wouldn't know if this watch is legit or not.


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## Straight_time

Legit model from circa 1990/1991, rather worn as the bezel should look gloss black. Caliber inside is a day-date 2628N, the day of the week is symbolized by the red dot moving along the 7 holes.


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## runningzombie

Ligavesh said:


> Don't post links to the listing itself, it might lead to conflicts if someone were to decide to buy it instead of you, for example. Just post photos or screenshots. That being said, I wouldn't know if this watch is legit or not.


Sorry, didn't realise, will keep in mind in the future.


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## jimzilla

I would like ask the 3133 experts if this watch is correct or not, thank you comrades.
STURMANSKIE Russian Chronograph SHTURMANSKIE 3133/1981598 STAINLESS STEEL | eBay


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## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I would like ask the 3133 experts if this watch is correct or not, thank you comrades.
> STURMANSKIE Russian Chronograph SHTURMANSKIE 3133/1981598 STAINLESS STEEL | eBay


i always like when 1 lot shows watches from 2 separate watches. Maybe this is why the price is doubled cause you get 2 for 1. Lol. Joking. Sorry, I know nothing about modern re-issue Poljots.


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## starjay

Would this be a fake? Probably a zim originally? Is the 3NM on the dial accurate?


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## Odessa200

starjay said:


> Would this be a fake? Probably a zim originally? Is the 3NM on the dial accurate?
> View attachment 15557200
> View attachment 15557201


Real. Just curious, why did you suspect it is not? Movement has a replaced part. Crown is from the 'yellow' model


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## starjay

The 3NM on the dial. Never had seen it before.


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## Odessa200

starjay said:


> The 3NM on the dial. Never had seen it before.


there are quite a few Zim branded watches....


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## starjay

Yes. But I thought ZIM was a newer brand. Anywhere I can read about it?


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## Odessa200

starjay said:


> Yes. But I thought ZIM was a newer brand. Anywhere I can read about it?


Zim is one of the main Soviet watch factories. Half of the Pobedas are made by Zim. And although many watches made by Zim had Pobeda on the dial there were some that were branded as Zim. Zim produced some of the most beautiful dials (and some of the ugliest, the is no middle ground for Zim  ). I am sure if you google for USSR Zim factory you will find all the info you need. 
If you want to look at the Zim watches, look the sticky on this forum with Soviet catalogs. There is a Zim one. The image I added, is from the catalog by Ivanov. A very detailed and great catalog that of course is available online as a pdf.


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## starjay

Thank you @Odessa200, still a lot to learn. Somehow I was convinced it was the other way around. That pobeda was the mother brand of zim. I will look into the catalogues. You are a godsend to this forum.


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## Odessa200

starjay said:


> Thank you @Odessa200, still a lot to learn. Somehow I was convinced it was the other way around. That pobeda was the mother brand of zim. I will look into the catalogues. You are a godsend to this forum.


You are too funny..... Pobeda is one of the main brands. True. But Zim is both a Factory and a brand. Somewhat interesting deviation. All watch factories got their brands: 1MChZ = Poljot. 2MChZ = Slava, etc. But Zim is just Zim. Underdog of the Soviet watchmaking. Mostly doing same movement for all these years and releasing it as Pobeda. But for unknown to me reasons some models release as ZiM. And although many models (especially late Soviet models) are plain and not very interesting some are fantastic. Take a look at this for example.


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## cookiemonster94

Is this Raketa legit?
I found it on accident and the Dial confused me, since it has a "JAPAN MOVT" instead of "Made in USSR" on it.
It has a soviet 2609HA movement.
I'm just curious, not planning on buying it.


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## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Is this Raketa legit?
> I found it on accident and the Dial confused me, since it has a "JAPAN MOVT" instead of "Made in USSR" on it.
> It has a soviet 2609HA movement.
> I'm just curious, not planning on buying it.
> View attachment 15563501


i think the dial is legit but it does not belong to this watch. It was for the quartz version that was released in the 90s


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## Ligavesh

This is a fake dial, isn't it?










That "Raketa" marking should be higher placed, like on this one:










Also, the whole dial is too shiny for something made in the USSR (I mean age wise mostly)?

PS. What about this one:



















??


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This is a fake dial, isn't it?
> 
> View attachment 15565064
> 
> 
> That "Raketa" marking should be higher placed, like on this one:
> 
> View attachment 15565067
> 
> 
> Also, the whole dial is too shiny for something made in the USSR (I mean age wise mostly)?
> 
> PS. What about this one:
> 
> View attachment 15565176
> 
> 
> View attachment 15565177
> 
> 
> ??


Hard one. I am betting 80% fake vs 20% real.


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## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Hard one. I am betting 80% fake vs 20% real.


I've noticed that the name Raketa is normally written higher on most other dials, like you see on that old beat down dial I put for comparison.

Wait, for which one do you think 80% vs 20% fake - the first shiny one, or the second one in my PS? Or for both?


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I've noticed that the name Raketa is normally written higher on most other dials, like you see on that old beat down dial I put for comparison.
> 
> Wait, for which one do you think 80% vs 20% fake - the first shiny one, or the second one in my PS? Or for both?


1st shiny can be fake. 2nd old is real.


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## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> 1st shiny can be fake. 2nd old is real.


Thanks, guess which one is mine


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## Ligavesh

No, but seriously @Odessa200 , what do you think about the name Raketa being printed lower - is that a dead giveaway that it's a fake, or is it maybe something that could be legit, that maybe some dials were printed like that? Cause I've seen it lower, but only on the 24h Cities dial...

PS. Found another - this dial comes not as often as you'd think - not in a good condition at least:



















The photos are not so good, but you can see that Raketa sign under the name - first time I see that - what do you think, legit?


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## Ligavesh

Sorry for spamming the forum, but I found a picture from a catalogue, it's small, but you can just make out that the name Raketa is written lower, like on my example - so maybe there is hope


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> No, but seriously @Odessa200 , what do you think about the name Raketa being printed lower - is that a dead giveaway that it's a fake, or is it maybe something that could be legit, that maybe some dials were printed like that? Cause I've seen it lower, but only on the 24h Cities dial...
> 
> PS. Found another - this dial comes not as often as you'd think - not in a good condition at least:
> 
> View attachment 15565280
> 
> 
> View attachment 15565281
> 
> 
> The photos are not so good, but you can see that Raketa sign under the name - first time I see that - what do you think, legit?


Hard to say for sure. I do not have this data. On the dial you originally questioned (shiny), I am suspicious about the anchor: it is fuzzy and inner gaps are not clear but filled with the blue paint. But it can just low quality perestroika dial

last dial: hard to see


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## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Hard to say for sure. I do not have this data. On the dial you originally questioned (shiny), I am suspicious about the anchor: it is fuzzy and inner gaps are not clear but filled with the blue paint. But it can just low quality perestroika dial
> 
> last dial: hard to see


Well then - as I already bought too many watches, I'm gonna see my dial as a low-quality Perestroika for now - when I'm into the mood for buying watches again, I'm gonna see it as a new (fake) print 

edit: btw, does anyone know the meaning of the symbols on the dial, as well as the two blue and one red period area on the bezel?


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## Straight_time

Ligavesh said:


> The photos are not so good, but you can see that Raketa sign under the name - first time I see that - what do you think, legit?


More commonly found on Petrodvorets' than other factories' productions, but not a "Raketa sign" at all.


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## Ligavesh

Straight_time said:


> More commonly found on Petrodvorets' than other factories' productions, but not a "Raketa sign" at all.


Interesting - but how come some editions (or dial prints) have it and some don't? From the very same model?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Interesting - but how come some editions (or dial prints) have it and some don't? From the very same model?


it is a state quality stamp that 1)was awarded to a product when it was of excellent quality, low customer complains, low number of warranty repairs, atc and 2)was awarded for some time, not forever and 3)could be revoked if the quality declined and 4)became defunct with the collapse of the USSR and 5)towards the end of the USSR soviet people wanted to see a McDonalad logo much better than this old symbol of dying empire that frankly speaking did not mean much in the late 80s and 90s.

These Raketas were produced for a long time and during these times situation changed a lot. Even is a product had this award, it would be in the passport but the factory may have decided to print dials w/o it to allow variety. It was not a requirement to have it on the face of the product. Also it was not part of any brand but rather a matter of State pride. But as the USSR was declining all these symbols lost the old glory and slowly were removed.


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## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> it is a state quality stamp that 1)was awarded to a product when it was of excellent quality, low customer complains, low number of warranty repairs, atc and 2)was awarded for some time, not forever and 3)could be revoked if the quality declined and 4)became defunct with the collapse of the USSR and 5)towards the end of the USSR soviet people wanted to see a McDonalad logo much better than this old symbol of dying empire that frankly speaking did not mean much in the late 80s and 90s.
> 
> These Raketas were produced for a long time and during these times situation changed a lot. Even is a product had this award, it would be in the passport but the factory may have decided to print dials w/o it to allow variety. It was not a requirement to have it on the face of the product. Also it was not part of any brand but rather a matter of State pride. But as the USSR was declining all these symbols lost the old glory and slowly were removed.


So that would make that last Raketa probably legit, as it would be less likely that someone had printed a dial with that symbol on it, when it was much commoner to see it without the symbol? Or is it the reverse - it makes it _more_ likely to be a fake?


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> So that would make that last Raketa probably legit, as it would be less likely that someone had printed a dial with that symbol on it, when it was much commoner to see it without the symbol? Or is it the reverse - it makes it _more_ likely to be a fake?


we have seen fake dials with this quality stamps (do not recall what dial specifically). So I would say that presence or absence of it can be a sure guarantee that the dial is legit.


----------



## lukegrunger

Hi All, first post here so apologies if this is the wrong place! I wondered if the Luch watches below are fake or just simply different models? Also, are there a lot of fakes generally on the market?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

lukegrunger said:


> Hi All, first post here so apologies if this is the wrong place! I wondered if the Luch watches below are fake or just simply different models? Also, are there a lot of fakes generally on the market?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> View attachment 15566374
> View attachment 15566375


welcome! Different models. I think I found one in the catalog. 2nd looks Ok as well but I am not an expert in these models. See what other people say.


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## lukegrunger

Thank you for taking a look. It does look very much like that's the one in the catalogue. 

If anyone else has an idea too that would be much appreciated.


----------



## DRich96

Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help me identify a real Copernicus for my boyfriends Christmas! Can anyone confirm if any of these are legit?





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Ultra Rare Vostok Amphibian BANANA Soviet Diders 200m Watch - Etsy UK


This Unisex Wrist Watches item by MyVintageBAG has 67 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 22 Aug, 2022




www.etsy.com














* these aren't the right nubmers are they? Black face should be 41419728 right?





__





This item is unavailable - Etsy


Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.




www.etsy.com













thanks in advance for any help!


----------



## Odessa200

Welcome! I would pick 1st white. It is all legit in my view and price is acceptable. And I love white dial.

2nd one has wrong passport. This model must have 2909.NP. Not 2609.HA and passport is for HA. And the price is way too much.

3rd one is franken: second hand is wrong color. Dial is Made in Russia but movement is made in SU. Looks like the crystal has wrong shape.

Cheers


DRich96 said:


> Hi, I was wondering if anyone could help me identify a real Copernicus for my boyfriends Christmas! Can anyone confirm if any of these are legit?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This item is unavailable - Etsy
> 
> 
> Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15571092
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> Ultra Rare Vostok Amphibian BANANA Soviet Diders 200m Watch - Etsy UK
> 
> 
> This Unisex Wrist Watches item by MyVintageBAG has 67 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 22 Aug, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15571093
> 
> 
> * these aren't the right nubmers are they? Black face should be 41419728 right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This item is unavailable - Etsy
> 
> 
> Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15571095
> 
> 
> thanks in advance for any help!


----------



## DRich96

Thank you so much!
How can you tell the movement is made in SU, both of the add's with movement photos have SU engraved on them?
Thanks again


----------



## Odessa200

DRich96 said:


> Thank you so much!
> How can you tell the movement is made in SU, both of the add's with movement photos have SU engraved on them?
> Thanks again


Exactly


----------



## DRich96

Hi all, thanks again for the help with the Copernicus please now can you help me with this Big Zero?
I've been working from the information in this article but there seems to be so many variations that are potentially real!

Thanks in advance!





__





This item is unavailable - Etsy


Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.




www.etsy.com


----------



## Odessa200

DRich96 said:


> Hi all, thanks again for the help with the Copernicus please now can you help me with this Big Zero?
> I've been working from the information in this article but there seems to be so many variations that are potentially real!
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This item is unavailable - Etsy
> 
> 
> Find the perfect handmade gift, vintage & on-trend clothes, unique jewellery, and more… lots more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15572574


I my opinion, crown, crystal and back cover replaced. Back cover is a minor issue: should have 3 digits number.


----------



## DRich96

Oh yeah hadn't noticed the back, i'm really not very good at this. Sorry to just keep showing you more and more but do you think this one is okay? He sent me a photo of the movement in chat.

Thanks again in advanced





__





NOS NEW Raketa ZERO Big Zero Soviet Watch Raketa Mechanical - Etsy UK


NOS!!! NEW!!! Watches have never been used. Soviet watch Raketa ZERO Manufacturer: RAKETA, USSR. Mechanical manual winding movement White dial with black marks and numbers; Case diameter is 37 mm with crown Big ZERO. Each watch has been totally serviced by professional watchmaker and keep good




www.etsy.com


----------



## Odessa200

DRich96 said:


> Oh yeah hadn't noticed the back, i'm really not very good at this. Sorry to just keep showing you more and more but do you think this one is okay? He sent me a photo of the movement in chat.
> 
> Thanks again in advanced
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOS NEW Raketa ZERO Big Zero Soviet Watch Raketa Mechanical - Etsy UK
> 
> 
> NOS!!! NEW!!! Watches have never been used. Soviet watch Raketa ZERO Manufacturer: RAKETA, USSR. Mechanical manual winding movement White dial with black marks and numbers; Case diameter is 37 mm with crown Big ZERO. Each watch has been totally serviced by professional watchmaker and keep good
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15573052


this movement is replaced. It is much older than the watch. See the beveled edge? This stopped in early 1980. And the Big Zero is more like 1990. The correct movement should have a straight edge. The beveled could be of a better quality though cause the worst quality movements were done around the USSR collapse...


----------



## DRich96

Odessa200 said:


> this movement is replaced. It is much older than the watch. See the beveled edge? This stopped in early 1980. And the Big Zero is more like 1990. The correct movement should have a straight edge. The beveled could be of a better quality though cause the worst quality movements were done around the USSR collapse...


Thanks you so much! 
So, while its franken its actually potentially better if i'm not too fussy?


----------



## Straight_time

Before evaluating beveled vs. straight edges or 3- vs. 6-digits serials, I'd give a much closer look at dials... I am no expert of the brand, but smell a giant rat here.

Please compare the two Etsy watches (identical to dozens of other pieces very easily found on ebay too), marked in red, to my NOS example (one of those specifically exported to Italy back in the days, full set complete with branded strap, special lined cardboard longbox and certificate from the importer -that is, undoubtely legit), marked in green.








,










They have absolutely nothing in common: sharp vs. rounded indexes, different font of the digits, the lettering of the whole brand's name (most notably the "K") doesn't match; and if you go looking at the original Etsy pics (I had to work on a manually enlarged image, on the site it can be seen at a higher resolution) you'll notice how also the Сделано в СССР writing has different font and spacing among letters (most notably between "л" and "а").
Finally, notice how the minutes hand abundantly overlaps the longer sharp index, while the shorter rounded one is just lightly touched by it.
IMHO all of these are modern fakes.

.


----------



## DRich96

Straight_time said:


> Before evaluating beveled vs. straight edges or 3- vs. 6-digits serials, I'd give a much closer look at dials... I am no expert of the brand, but smell a giant rat here.
> 
> Please compare the two Etsy watches (identical to dozens of other pieces very easily found on ebay too), marked in red, to my NOS example (one of those specifically exported to Italy back in the days, full set complete with branded strap, special lined cardboard longbox and certificate from the importer -that is, undoubtely legit), marked in green.
> 
> View attachment 15573278
> ,
> 
> View attachment 15573284
> 
> 
> They have absolutely nothing in common: sharp vs. rounded indexes, different font of the digits, the lettering of the whole brand's name (most notably the "K") doesn't match; and if you go looking at the original Etsy pics (I had to work on a manually enlarged image, on the site it can be seen at a higher resolution) you'll notice how also the Сделано в СССР writing has different font and spacing among letters (most notably between "л" and "а").
> Finally, notice how the minutes hand abundantly overlaps the longer sharp index, while the shorter rounded one is just lightly touched by it.
> IMHO all of these are modern fakes.


In this article Raketa Big Zero: The Ultimate Buying Guide | Vintage Watch Inc they say the pointed triangle and font changes are the difference between the cushioned case and the one i've been looking at with the more pronounced lugs.
I can find old catalogue photos of the black dial with the smaller case but no old photos of the white dial and small case, the combo on the etsy adds.
Is it likely only ever the black dial had spiked triangle and the smaller case?


----------



## Odessa200

Yes, I will take beveled movement over flat anytime (but I am fussy about having correct time period movements)

differences in Font and index shapes is expected. Whatever or not this is a modern fake: you decide. My opinion it looks legit but we all make mistakes.


----------



## Trash72

Hi, i am a new member and i have the same model but with black dial, this model (with black dial) is present in the Raketa catalog 89/92'-
P.S I am very happy to meet you, but i would like to know if a presentations is needed.


----------



## Odessa200

Trash72 said:


> Hi, i am a new member and i have the same model but with black dial, this model (with black dial) is present in the Raketa catalog 89/92'-
> P.S I am very happy to meet you, but i would like to know if a presentations is needed.


welcome! Nothing is needed. Just start posting!


----------



## Ligavesh

What do we think of this Raketa? It's got a red seconds hand and the case of those 'jeans' models.



















I remember a fellow poster posted his and his had a black seconds hand and a different case... This one is his:









What did you buy today? Part II (the continuation thread)


Oops, totally forgot I bidded on this one as well... oh well Slava "tank" quartz "R" us but looking at the three I can build a good clean one and have a good beater one and have the third one up to sell Sekonda did get back to me to say they never did a Sekonda branded version of this which I...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm leaning towards fake/franken, cause I saw many models of that watch in bad condition, and none of them had a red econds hand or that 'Raketa Jeans' case, i.e. they looked like the example of the fellow forum member, only in a bad condition (dial scratched, chrome with scratches/pealing off etc).


----------



## cookiemonster94

I have bought this Raketa recently and was sure it was lefit.
Now I am not so sure since the movement is very lose and wobbles around inside the case.
It is too small for the case.


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> I have bought this Raketa recently and was sure it was lefit.
> Now I am not so sure since the movement is very lose and wobbles around inside the case.
> It is too small for the case.
> View attachment 15581616
> 
> View attachment 15581617
> 
> View attachment 15581620


the movement and case is legit. Crown is replaced. Probably seconds hand is replaced (did not check the catalog) but the case/movement is right. Are the screws that supposed to hold the movement tight enough? But most likely the plastic o-ring is set between the the movement and the magnetic shield. But it should be on top of the shield: movement + shield + o-ring + back cover.


----------



## cookiemonster94

Thanks for the reply.
I think I need a new O-ring, after putting the back into the right order it still wobbles around.
But thats another story.


----------



## bobby54

Hello,
I m not an expert so i'd like advertisement to buy a okeah sturmanskie.
What do you think about that watch below ?
What price is reasonnable for it ?
Thanks


----------



## miroman

Dial and hands are 'new-made'. Movement is not correct, new. Is there a picture of the back?


----------



## bobby54

miroman said:


> Dial and hands are 'new-made'. Movement is not correct, new. Is there a picture of the back?


here the back
Difficult to find a real one...
Thanks


----------



## miroman

The back is wrong.
The watch is a standard 3133 with replaced fake dial.


----------



## Odessa200

miroman said:


> The back is wrong.
> The watch is a standard 3133 with replaced fake dial.


the morale of the story: stay away from it. Fake on so many levels.


----------



## Ligavesh

What do we think aboit this Majak (Mayak?):


----------



## Odessa200

Mayak was done by PChZ. Not 1MChZ. It also needs the shockproof balance. The hands are wrong and also of different colors. So my verdict is : franken on many levels.



Ligavesh said:


> What do we think aboit this Majak (Mayak?):
> 
> View attachment 15589853
> 
> 
> View attachment 15589854
> 
> 
> View attachment 15589855
> 
> 
> View attachment 15589856


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Mayak was done by PChZ. Not 1MChZ. It also needs the shockproof balance. The hands are wrong and also of different colors. So my verdict is : franken on many levels.


Many thanks, Odessa. Btw, could you pop in here: I found someone who really loves Vostoks:

Your opinion would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Mayak was done by PChZ. Not 1MChZ. It also needs the shockproof balance. The hands are wrong and also of different colors. So my verdict is : franken on many levels.


Weren't there some Mayaks produced by 1MCHZ?  I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Here: Vintage Soviet Watches: The Ultimate Guide and over on Mr. Oatman's site: Mayak | Watches of the USSR


----------



## Ligavesh

Not a question on whether a watch is a franken or not exactly, but about missing (?) parts...

So this old Raketa wobbles a lot in it's case, and when I touch the crown it moves with the crown. So I take the crown out and see this:



















Surely there's a part missing there, a gasket or something, it can't just be a big hole?


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Weren't there some Mayaks produced by 1MCHZ?  I seem to remember reading that somewhere. Here: Vintage Soviet Watches: The Ultimate Guide and over on Mr. Oatman's site: Mayak | Watches of the USSR
> 
> View attachment 15591326
> View attachment 15591328


you are right. I had forgot about it and in my mimd Mayak is just PChZ. Thanks for correcting me


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Not a question on whether a watch is a franken or not exactly, but about missing (?) parts...
> 
> So this old Raketa wobbles a lot in it's case, and when I touch the crown it moves with the crown. So I take the crown out and see this:
> 
> View attachment 15591464
> 
> 
> View attachment 15591467
> 
> 
> Surely there's a part missing there, a gasket or something, it can't just be a big hole?


a footer is missing. A short tube that that is press fitted into the case. You probably can find a matching tube and press it in or worst case glue it in. Maybe easier to find a new case


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> a footer is missing. A short tube that that is press fitted into the case. You probably can find a matching tube and press it in or worst case glue it in. Maybe easier to find a new case


Do footers from different watches fit or it has ti be the exact same case? Cause I have a few that I wouldn't mind taking apart.

Another question - is this Signal legit:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Do footers from different watches fit or it has ti be the exact same case? Cause I have a few that I wouldn't mind taking apart.
> 
> Another question - is this Signal legit:
> 
> View attachment 15592614


Signal looks legit.

footers: I assume may be different. But maybe some watches are compatible. I have no experience taking a footer from one watch and putting on another.


----------



## system11

RAKETA Ann Wrist Watch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RAKETA Ann Wrist Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk





What on earth is this? Is this one of those "personalised for a retailer or factory" watches or a Full Fat Franken?


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks personalized to me...

I knew I saw this somewhere:









ПЧЗ


View album on Yandex.Disk




yadi.sk





No butterfly, franken then?


----------



## Odessa200

These are custom made based on orders from some company... they could have ordered with batteries for females and w/o for males. There is no way to authenticate these small-batch orders because anything goes: whatever client wanted.


----------



## Novatime

I'd like your opinions on this Raketa Atom. It's listed as an AU20 Raketa Atom from the 70s. There's an inscription on the caseback that appears to have a date of 21.??.70 but I can't make out, let alone translate, the rest. The hands look correct but don't quite match the colour of the case, however that could be the oversaturation of the photos. The retaining ring looks to have some tarnished spots or perhaps rust spots?


----------



## Odessa200

Novatime said:


> I'd like your opinions on this Raketa Atom. It's listed as an AU20 Raketa Atom from the 70s. There's an inscription on the caseback that appears to have a date of 21.??.70 but I can't make out, let alone translate, the rest. The hands look correct but don't quite match the colour of the case, however that could be the oversaturation of the photos. The retaining ring looks to have some tarnished spots or perhaps rust spots?
> View attachment 15600625
> 
> View attachment 15600626
> View attachment 15600629
> View attachment 15600630
> View attachment 15600634


looks good to me.
'to dear father on the birthday of Toshka'.
Date is June 21 1970

potentially gift to a new farther


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> a footer is missing. A short tube that that is press fitted into the case. You probably can find a matching tube and press it in or worst case glue it in. Maybe easier to find a new case


Okay wth is wrong now, why can't I couple the stem in - it goes all the way in, but doesn't 'connect' to the watch  That hole next to the gear - that's where you press to couple/decouple - could it be that something is broken there? Watches can be so frustrating it makes you fume with anger


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Signal looks legit.


Does this caseback:










go with this watch:










Shouldn't it be that weird caseback that makes the ringing louder? Like this:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Does this caseback:
> 
> View attachment 15609971
> 
> 
> go with this watch:
> 
> View attachment 15609972
> 
> 
> Shouldn't it be that weird caseback that makes the ringing louder? Like this:
> 
> View attachment 15609976


Correct: the 1st back you showed is wrong. 2nd with holes is right.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Correct: the 1st back you showed is wrong. 2nd with holes is right.


Would you say the other parts (case, dial, hands) are original, or is it likely that they're fake too?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Would you say the other parts (case, dial, hands) are original, or is it likely that they're fake too?


I would say the rest is authentic. Just the back is wrong. And maybe movement (cause you did not post the photo of it)


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Okay wth is wrong now, why can't I couple the stem in - it goes all the way in, but doesn't 'connect' to the watch  That hole next to the gear - that's where you press to couple/decouple - could it be that something is broken there? Watches can be so frustrating it makes you fume with anger
> 
> View attachment 15609148
> 
> 
> View attachment 15609149


yes, something can be broken or just misaligned. How do you extract the stem? Do you put the crown into the time setting position before pushing the button? Unfortunately there is no easy way to say what is wrong w/o removing of the dial and the calendar. You can try to see if the stem clicks in w/o the case. If not, then you need to remove the dial.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> yes, something can be broken or just misaligned. How do you extract the stem? Do you put the crown into the time setting position before pushing the button? Unfortunately there is no easy way to say what is wrong w/o removing of the dial and the calendar. You can try to see if the stem clicks in w/o the case. If not, then you need to remove the dial.


I only later remember that I need to be careful about in which position is the crown/stem when I pull it out - which means I don't remember and could be a reason for the problems. Without the case it's the same which means I'm ****ed. I like the dial and the case is relatively clean, but I don't think paying a repair could be justified and I certainly can't do it on my own... Ah well, at least I did a 'transplant' of a footer, that was fun.


----------



## runningzombie

Wondering if this looks legit? Was confused by the Cyrillic on everything except the days? What do you all think?


----------



## SinanjuStein

runningzombie said:


> Wondering if this looks legit? Was confused by the Cyrillic on everything except the days? What do you all think?


Slava's usually have matching languages on the dial and day discs. And as it's a watch that's to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the October revolution (1987~Probably made for the parade in said year?), it's not supposed to be a transitional or leftovers watch made by the factory so i don't think it left the factory as we see now.

My 2 cents on it, is that the day disc is a replacement part from the watch having water damage as seen on the dial (discoloration) or just being cobbled together from parts from having said water damage in the first place. Still a very unusual and nice looking dial, shame about the damage.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Slava's usually have matching languages on the dial and day discs. And as it's a watch that's to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the October revolution (1987~Probably made for the parade in said year?), it's not supposed to be a transitional or leftovers watch made by the factory so i don't think it left the factory as we see now.
> 
> My 2 cents on it, is that the day disc is a replacement part from the watch having water damage as seen on the dial (discoloration) or just being cobbled together from parts from having said water damage in the first place. Still a very unusual and nice looking dial, shame about the damage.


Agree, calendar is replaced. The rest is Ok. Question is: WHY use wrong calendar. Always bugs me. In Russia, you can get a bag of old Slavas with decent calendars for a few dollars...

a side note: a latin calendar on a Cyrillic watch is a small issue that sometimes can be overlooked. But a latin calendar on a Cyrillic watch commemorating the great October revolution is another matter: a big NO


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I only later remember that I need to be careful about in which position is the crown/stem when I pull it out - which means I don't remember and could be a reason for the problems. Without the case it's the same which means I'm ****ed. I like the dial and the case is relatively clean, but I don't think paying a repair could be justified and I certainly can't do it on my own... Ah well, at least I did a 'transplant' of a footer, that was fun.


watchmaking is a precise trade... sometimes people get lucky, especially with very forging Soviet watches, but sometimes the luck is not on our side.


----------



## runningzombie

Odessa200 said:


> a side note: a latin calendar on a Cyrillic watch is a small issue that sometimes can be overlooked. But a latin calendar on a Cyrillic watch commemorating the great October revolution is another matter: a big NO


Exactly what I thought! Would love source some revolution themed watches though.

any thoughts on what the inscription says?


----------



## Odessa200

runningzombie said:


> Exactly what I thought! Would love source some revolution themed watches though.
> 
> any thoughts on what the inscription says?


To Victor on his 50th birthday. 
date
K.I.M. (Probably Initials of the person who gifted it)


----------



## hardhans

Would this perchance be a franken, don't mind if it is still like it.


----------



## mariomart

hardhans said:


> Would this perchance be a franken, don't mind if it is still like it.


Looks good to me mostly. The red tip on the second hand may be an addition, however the hands are correct. It may have the wrong case back, but I don't have a reference to be sure.

Here is the scan of the 1976 Vostok catalog, the model number is 441174


----------



## hardhans

mariomart said:


> Looks good to me mostly. The red tip on the second hand may be an addition, however the hands are correct. It may have the wrong case back, but I don't have a reference to be sure.
> 
> Here is the scan of the 1976 Vostok catalog, the model number is 441174
> 
> View attachment 15613255


Cheers, i did wonder if the numbers had been repainted but numbers on that catalogue example look just as funky.


----------



## SinanjuStein

hardhans said:


> Cheers, i did wonder if the numbers had been repainted but numbers on that catalogue example look just as funky.


All the lume on the dial does look very aged and faded, and matches the discoloration of the star on the dial. It's hard to say from the picture, but i think the minute hand was fixed with some white paint. (Or just a reflection from the crystal).

Still a very nice looking example.


----------



## hardhans

SinanjuStein said:


> All the lume on the dial does look very aged and faded, and matches the discoloration of the star on the dial. It's hard to say from the picture, but i think the minute hand was fixed with some white paint. (Or just a reflection from the crystal).
> 
> Still a very nice looking example.


hahahaha i have had this watch since like 2012 and only now just noticed the minute hand as you pointed it out, its quite subtle when glancing.

and thanks to the catalogue hint found this, Komandirskie Chistopol | Vostok Amphibia CCCP
and sure enough second hand has been painted and case back is different.


----------



## Odessa200

hardhans said:


> hahahaha i have had this watch since like 2012 and only now just noticed the minute hand as you pointed it out, its quite subtle when glancing.
> 
> and thanks to the catalogue hint found this, Komandirskie Chistopol | Vostok Amphibia CCCP
> and sure enough second hand has been painted and case back is different.


given people already opined on the exterior, let me mention the interior: movement has replaced parts. The balance assembly (balance and the bridge) and the ratchet wheel are wrong for this watch. Maybe even crown wheel replaced but it is a bit hard to tell from this photos.


----------



## hardhans

Odessa200 said:


> given people already opined on the exterior, let me mention the interior: movement has replaced parts. The balance assembly (balance and the bridge) and the ratchet wheel are wrong for this watch. Maybe even crown wheel replaced but it is a bit hard to tell from this photos.


cheers, good to know totally would not have sussed that.


----------



## Aivan47

Hello i want to buy a 2809 vostok and i found this but i dont know if it is a franken or not. I dont have problem if the dial isnt the corrrect one but the movement is good or is a franken?


----------



## Odessa200

Aivan47 said:


> Hello i want to buy a 2809 vostok and i found this but i dont know if it is a franken or not. I dont have problem if the dial isnt the corrrect one but the movement is good or is a franken?
> View attachment 15616922
> View attachment 15616925


as far as I see, all is good/authentic


----------



## Ligavesh

Does this Raketa look original or does it have replaced parts? Are those hands original?



















Edit: Reading about the different types of 2609 HA regarding the Big Zero, I just realized that the movement here has been tempered with: partly beveled, partly straight? Probably balance wheel assembly replaced with an older beveled one?


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> this movement is replaced. It is much older than the watch. See the beveled edge? This stopped in early 1980. And the Big Zero is more like 1990. The correct movement should have a straight edge. The beveled could be of a better quality though cause the worst quality movements were done around the USSR collapse...


Damn! I missed this comment! Now I have a Big Zero with the wrong 2609 HA...



> @979greenwich
> I'd rather see a flat than an older, bevelled 2609.HA movement in the Big Zero. *Could be factory built with an older leftover movement,* but a flat movement is a characteristic of this watch.


Here's hoping...


----------



## Ligavesh

Okay, can't sleep so I'm gonna spam the forum - why is this Raketa so expensive:









Raketa 24 Stunden selten Vintage Russische Sowjetische UdSSR Mechanische Herren Uhr | eBay


Entdecken Sie Raketa 24 Stunden selten Vintage Russische Sowjetische UdSSR Mechanische Herren Uhr in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!



www.ebay.de





Sharing the link cause I'm not interesfed in giving away 1000 euros atm, even if by any chance it was 'worth it'.


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## Bar5917

Hello, Is this watch genuine? How much would you value this watch? Seller says it was serviced.


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## Ligavesh

Ligavesh said:


> Does this Raketa look original or does it have replaced parts? Are those hands original?
> 
> View attachment 15620052
> 
> 
> View attachment 15620054
> 
> 
> Edit: Reading about the different types of 2609 HA regarding the Big Zero, I just realized that the movement here has been tempered with: partly beveled, partly straight? Probably balance wheel assembly replaced with an older beveled one?


Found this thread:









Paketa - crown at 5 - new arrival!


This arrived in the post today,... a unique looking Raketa (Paketa) with the crown at an unusual 5 position. Before purchasing, I attempted to find similar models with which to compare it but was unable to find much other than that it hails from the first half of the 1980's. I popped the case...




www.watchuseek.com





So seconds hand likely replaced, as I presumed.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Okay, can't sleep so I'm gonna spam the forum - why is this Raketa so expensive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa 24 Stunden selten Vintage Russische Sowjetische UdSSR Mechanische Herren Uhr | eBay
> 
> 
> Entdecken Sie Raketa 24 Stunden selten Vintage Russische Sowjetische UdSSR Mechanische Herren Uhr in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sharing the link cause I'm not interesfed in giving away 1000 euros atm, even if by any chance it was 'worth it'.


yes, it is worth it if you can afford it. Aside from a lousy replaced crystal the rest looks right. A) it is a great watch. Perfect size. B) look at the movement. It is not the common Raketa 24h movement. It is 24h baltica. C) but the price obviously comes from the case/dial. The dial is in condition aside from the scratch that is obviously coused by a watchmaker who has hands growing out of his rare end. D) this watch is much harder to buy than, for example, any 3133. Hence the price.

and here is mine  also it a very very fine condition


----------



## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> Hello, Is this watch genuine? How much would you value this watch? Seller says it was serviced.
> 
> View attachment 15620241
> View attachment 15620244
> View attachment 15620247
> 
> View attachment 15620242
> View attachment 15620245
> View attachment 15620248
> 
> View attachment 15620253
> View attachment 15620256
> View attachment 15620250


looks good to me. Around 150$
if it was serviced, ask the seller why the screw is missing. Hate sloppy job... would not buy until the missing screw is replaced and a photo of the timegrapher reading is presented.
also, these watches have a week autowinding: make sure you ask if the autowinding works well.


----------



## cocteau32

Hi everyone,
I only just started looking at Russian watches a week ago because I liked the smaller case sizes along with the various styles, not to mention the seemingly bargain prices.
After a few minutes on the forum here, I now see that this is an area which seems to be filled with potential landmines regarding authenticity and/or reliability
I'm not a collector by any stretch of the imagination, I just want a nice looking watch to wear every day.
I'd appreciate it if someone could take a quick look at a few of the ones I like and give me an opinion.
As a longtime eBay buyer/seller I know that feedback ratings aren't always what they seem so I would also appreciate
hearing about current sellers who are more trustworthy (and also any that I should steer clear of).
Thanks for the help.

SVET Raketa Mechanical wristwatch. 2603 16 jewels. Made in USSR 1960s | eBay

Pobeda Naval Aviation Mens Vintage Wrist Watch Gift 1960s USSR Rare Serviced | eBay

RAKETA 1960's Authentic USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


----------



## Odessa200

cocteau32 said:


> Hi everyone,
> I only just started looking at Russian watches a week ago because I liked the smaller case sizes along with the various styles, not to mention the seemingly bargain prices.
> After a few minutes on the forum here, I now see that this is an area which seems to be filled with potential landmines regarding authenticity and/or reliability
> I'm not a collector by any stretch of the imagination, I just want a nice looking watch to wear every day.
> I'd appreciate it if someone could take a quick look at a few of the ones I like and give me an opinion.
> As a longtime eBay buyer/seller I know that feedback ratings aren't always what they seem so I would also appreciate
> hearing about current sellers who are more trustworthy (and also any that I should steer clear of).
> Thanks for the help.
> 
> SVET Raketa Mechanical wristwatch. 2603 16 jewels. Made in USSR 1960s | eBay
> 
> Pobeda Naval Aviation Mens Vintage Wrist Watch Gift 1960s USSR Rare Serviced | eBay
> 
> RAKETA 1960's Authentic USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


Welcome! Smart move to seek advice!

1) Svet: good pick. I only see 2 minor issues: replaced ratchet wheel and potentially back cover. Even if the back is replaced (not 100% sure) the text on it is right and matches the watch features. Ratchet wheel: not a big deal. At some point Raketa was making plain wheels like that as well (see your choice number 3, I think some of these were made with the plain wheel as this one).

2) Pobeda: this is complete fake. Skip it.

3) replaced crown. The rest is legit. Good pick. Love this watch. Have 3 of them


----------



## cocteau32

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome! Smart move to seek advice!
> 
> 1) Svet: good pick. I only see 2 minor issues: replaced ratchet wheel and potentially back cover. Even if the back is replaced (not 100% sure) the text on it is right and matches the watch features. Ratchet wheel: not a big deal. At some point Raketa was making plain wheels like that as well (see your choice number 3, I think some of these were made with the plain wheel as this one).
> 
> 2) Pobeda: this is complete fake. Skip it.
> 
> 3) replaced crown. The rest is legit. Good pick. Love this watch. Have 3 of them


Thank you so much!
It's too bad, the Pobeda was the one I was leaning towards but, oh well...
Is there an authentic example of that one (or something similar) that you could point me to?
I think that I'll go for the third one unless I find something else, in which case I'll be back with a few more links.


----------



## cocteau32

Actually, I forgot to ask about this one in my initial message, seems to be a variation of the Svet:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/821540317/extra-rare-raketa-made-in-ussr-mens?


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## Odessa200

cocteau32 said:


> Actually, I forgot to ask about this one in my initial message, seems to be a variation of the Svet:
> 
> https://www.etsy.com/listing/821540317/extra-rare-raketa-made-in-ussr-mens?


you got it a bit in reverse: Svet is a variant or Raketa. Raketa is the main brand. Svet was a small offshoot of it.

this looks good but I would like to see the movement....


----------



## Odessa200

cocteau32 said:


> Thank you so much!
> It's too bad, the Pobeda was the one I was leaning towards but, oh well...
> Is there an authentic example of that one (or something similar) that you could point me to?
> I think that I'll go for the third one unless I find something else, in which case I'll be back with a few more links.


There are no Soviet watches like these. All these fakes are made to imitate Laco. Please note: I know nothing about Laco but here what looks like a real deal. If you search ebay for Laco watch you will see lots of fakes like your pick.

Vintage Laco B-Uhr Original Circa 1942 Men's Wrist Watch Good Working Condition | eBay


----------



## cocteau32

Thanks again, this is quite a steep learning curve...


----------



## cocteau32

Ouch, $5700 vs $87.50...I'm starting to get the picture now.
I have a lot more expertise with franken (or fugazi, to use my Italian) in the area of audio equipment but it doesn't surprise me that this sort of thing occurs in almost every type of collector's environment.
Maybe I'll just get a nice Casio...


----------



## Odessa200

cocteau32 said:


> Ouch, $5700 vs $87.50...I'm starting to get the picture now.
> I have a lot more expertise with franken (or fugazi, to use my Italian) in the area of audio equipment but it doesn't surprise me that this sort of thing occurs in almost every type of collector's environment.
> Maybe I'll just get a nice Casio...


if you want to get the Pebeda, because of the looks, you can do it. As long as you understand what you are paying for. Under 100$ For a watch is not a bad deal. Good part is: mostly these fakes use cheep but new movements: Zim 2602. It is the cheapest movement that USSR ever produced but it gets job done. It was used by millions of people... new dial is a replica but it is new, not faded, has new lume, etc. again, as long as you understand that this is not a real watch used by Soviet pilots on super secretive missions and Ok with this then all is good.

real Lacos are a few thousand $. You can get a real Soviet pilot watches (Strela, Okean, etc) for 1000$ or so just because Soviet watches are generally cheaper than any other comparable watch...


----------



## Ligavesh

cocteau32 said:


> Thank you so much!
> It's too bad, the Pobeda was the one I was leaning towards but, oh well...
> Is there an authentic example of that one (or something similar) that you could point me to?
> I think that I'll go for the third one unless I find something else, in which case I'll be back with a few more links.


The Pobeda is bad only if you want an authentic example by all costs; I have a similar watch with a Pobeda movement - probably made by the same people as the markings on the caseback are the same - it's a good watch, works well (I think it has a serviced 2602 Pobeda movement), has good lume. I see it as an 'homage', not an authentic piece. Now, you could argue that maybe the price for something like that is too high; I got mine for around 40 euros without shipping at a bidding.










edit: I see @Odessa200 already cleared it up before I did


----------



## cocteau32

edit: I see @Odessa200 already cleared it up before I did 
[/QUOTE]

No, that's good to know, in fact I was going to ask next if it would still be a good buy as simply a copy (or homage as you put it so well).
I really like that style and, as long as it runs I'm not overly concerned about the provenance.
So many choices...


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## Bar5917

Is this one legit? The price is 80 dollars


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## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> Is this one legit? The price is 80 dollars
> 
> View attachment 15621460
> 
> View attachment 15621461


crown is wrong. Case is re-chromed
Possibly wrong seconds hand. Or it is just my brain....
the rest is fine.
Note: speed regulator is at the max position. If the watch is running fast you will mot be able to slow it down...


----------



## Bar5917

Odessa200 said:


> crown is wrong. Case is re-chromed
> Possibly wrong seconds hand. Or it is just my brain....
> the rest is fine.
> Note: speed regulator is at the max position. If the watch is running fast you will mot be able to slow it down...


I don't have any actual knowledge about watches I'm new to this whole business... can you explain this speed regulator thing? Thank you, also do you think 80 dollars its ok for this watch? How bad is it to not have the original crown?


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## Odessa200

If you ask my opinion I would pass on this one. The price is OK but I would want all parts to be right for this price.
For example, here is another one in the same price range









Vintage KIROVSKIE 16 Rubis Made in USSR | eBay


Very nice Russian watch Kirovskie, works very well, 16 rubies. The watch is sold in the state as it is in the picture. The photos show the item which you will receive.



www.ebay.com





There is no photo of the movement so that still needs to be checked to be sure it is right. But if you search for Kirovskie watches you will see many. I am sure you will be able to find correct watches.

crown: important or not is for you to decide. Look at the above example of what it should be. It is a minor issue and sometimes I buy watches with wrong crowns and replace them later when I happen to find correct crowns.

re-chromed case: they look nice but the quality or the chrome is not that good. If you intend to wear the watch daily you will soon discover that it started to show spots and basically the watch will get the vintage look (that I prefer anyway). Look at the watch you picked: the dial has imperfections but the case is spotless. I like harmony: new case asks for a new dial. Agree?

now the regulator: on your watch you can see a part with + and - and a small handle next to the minus. This is the regulator that is used to adjust the rate of the watch. It has approximately a range of +- 10 min. The regulator on your watch is in the maximum position as opposed to be in the center. This is an old watch so it can be a bit off center but I like to have at least some room in both directions. Like this one I am attaching: it is quite nicely in the center and will allow some adjuif the watch needs them


----------



## Bar5917

Odessa200 said:


> If you ask my opinion I would pass on this one. The price is OK but I would want all parts to be right for this price.
> For example, here is another one in the same price range
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage KIROVSKIE 16 Rubis Made in USSR | eBay
> 
> 
> Very nice Russian watch Kirovskie, works very well, 16 rubies. The watch is sold in the state as it is in the picture. The photos show the item which you will receive.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no photo of the movement so that still needs to be checked to be sure it is right. But if you search for Kirovskie watches you will see many. I am sure you will be able to find correct watches.
> 
> crown: important or not is for you to decide. Look at the above example of what it should be. It is a minor issue and sometimes I buy watches with wrong crowns and replace them later when I happen to find correct crowns.
> 
> re-chromed case: they look nice but the quality or the chrome is not that good. If you intend to wear the watch daily you will soon discover that it started to show spots and basically the watch will get the vintage look (that I prefer anyway). Look at the watch you picked: the dial has imperfections but the case is spotless. I like harmony: new case asks for a new dial. Agree?
> 
> now the regulator: on your watch you can see a part with + and - and a small handle next to the minus. This is the regulator that is used to adjust the rate of the watch. It has approximately a range of +- 10 min. The regulator on your watch is in the maximum position as opposed to be in the center. This is an old watch so it can be a bit off center but I like to have at least some room in both directions. Like this one I am attaching: it is quite nicely in the center and will allow some adjuif the watch needs them
> View attachment 15621737


Thank you for your great explanations, so if the speed regulator is set to max position can I just set it in the middle and problem solved? Is it that simple? 
Also I have seen this photo online and wondered if there is it possible to find such an excellent condition kirovskie for sale









Also sorry for spamming.... but I have also seen this nice watch that even comes with some documents, is it genuine? Cost 150$, worth buying?









Watch "Pobeda Zim", Soviet vintage mechanical Russian men's wrist watch New with | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Watch "Pobeda Zim", Soviet vintage mechanical Russian men's wrist watch New with at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> Thank you for your great explanations, so if the speed regulator is set to max position can I just set it in the middle and problem solved? Is it that simple?
> Also I have seen this photo online and wondered if there is it possible to find such an excellent condition kirovskie for sale
> View attachment 15621749
> 
> 
> Also sorry for spamming.... but I have also seen this nice watch that even comes with some documents, is it genuine? Cost 150$, worth buying?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch "Pobeda Zim", Soviet vintage mechanical Russian men's wrist watch New with | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Watch "Pobeda Zim", Soviet vintage mechanical Russian men's wrist watch New with at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I had recently purchased this one for 46$ including shipping. If you are patient you will fimd spectacular watches quite cheap.
The watch you showed belong to a forum member here. His collection is spectacular. He got it so you can find such treasures as well.

The Pobeda with the doc: unless you are a hardcore Pobeda collector, I would pass. This watch is a late Pobeda with the simplest movement. In NOS condition I frequently see them foe 30-40$. Of course with papers it is a bit more but I would not pay 150$. My maximum, if I wanted this watch, would be 75$ assuming docs are right and that needs to be checked against the printed style code.

as far as the regulator: is this your 1st mechanical watch? This is how it works: you get a watch and start wearing it. Based on various factors the watch may be a bit faster or slower. This watch is designed, when new, to be +-45 secs/day. You may experience that, for example, the watch is 2 mins fast per day. Then you open up the back and move the regulator to the minus by a tiniest amount and wear the watch for a few days. You will see that the precision improved. If you are licky (or have a timegrapher device like many of us do) you can get it close enough after 1 try. Or you repeat moving a bit to the minus or plus to get as close to the 0 error as you can. If the regulator already in the max position than this means that whoever tried to regulate the watch used up all the available regulating length. Did he succeed at least to get the watch to +-45 secs/day you need to ask the seller. But even if the watch is precise now, as oil gets drier, in a year or two, the watch may speed up a bit and you may want to slow it down but there is no way to do that. The next step would be to properly service the watch, find why it is so fast (maybe wrong balance or hairspring or oil was used) and bring it down within the proper limits. All this is important if you want the watch yo be precise. If you plan on using it to go to a restaurant, for example, for just 2 hours, then precision is less important.


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## Bar5917

Odessa200 said:


> I had recently purchased this one for 46$ including shipping. If you are patient you will fimd spectacular watches quite cheap.
> The watch you showed belong to a forum member here. His collection is spectacular. He got it so you can find such treasures as well.
> 
> The Pobeda with the doc: unless you are a hardcore Pobeda collector, I would pass. This watch is a late Pobeda with the simplest movement. In NOS condition I frequently see them foe 30-40$. Of course with papers it is a bit more but I would not pay 150$. My maximum, if I wanted this watch, would be 75$ assuming docs are right and that needs to be checked against the printed style code.
> 
> as far as the regulator: is this your 1st mechanical watch? This is how it works: you get a watch and start wearing it. Based on various factors the watch may be a bit faster or slower. This watch is designed, when new, to be +-45 secs/day. You may experience that, for example, the watch is 2 mins fast per day. Then you open up the back and move the regulator to the minus by a tiniest amount and wear the watch for a few days. You will see that the precision improved. If you are licky (or have a timegrapher device like many of us do) you can get it close enough after 1 try. Or you repeat moving a bit to the minus or plus to get as close to the 0 error as you can. If the regulator already in the max position than this means that whoever tried to regulate the watch used up all the available regulating length. Did he succeed at least to get the watch to +-45 secs/day you need to ask the seller. But even if the watch is precise now, as oil gets drier, in a year or two, the watch may speed up a bit and you may want to slow it down but there is no way to do that. The next step would be to properly service the watch, find why it is so fast (maybe wrong balance or hairspring or oil was used) and bring it down within the proper limits. All this is important if you want the watch yo be precise. If you plan on using it to go to a restaurant, for example, for just 2 hours, then precision is less important.
> View attachment 15621870


Thanks again, great explanation on the speed regulator, im always interested in learning new things! As you can tell I'm obviously not a hardcore pobeda collector... but I did found one for 50$ that comes with a nice strap, is it ok?
















I have also seen a post in this thread, yesterday I think about this raketa that you said was good but there was no picture of the moovment so I asked the seller to send me one
















btw this beautiful picture from your Instagram is the reason I started looking for a kirovskie


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## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> Thanks again, great explanation on the speed regulator, im always interested in learning new things! As you can tell I'm obviously not a hardcore pobeda collector... but I did found one for 50$ that comes with a nice strap, is it ok?
> View attachment 15622286
> View attachment 15622287
> 
> 
> I have also seen a post in this thread, yesterday I think about this raketa that you said was good but there was no picture of the moovment so I asked the seller to send me one
> View attachment 15622293
> View attachment 15622294
> 
> 
> btw this beautiful picture from your Instagram is the reason I started looking for a kirovskie


Pobeda looks Ok. 
Raketa has a replaced balance. But the watch quite nice.

the rest is up you. So many choices and decisions....

Glad you like ld my IG


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## Maxsterr

Hello, i've been looking into a Raketa 2359 moon phase made in USSR. I have not found any pictures of the movement online that i am sure are the correct ones. From studying a catalogue i would say that that the crown is atleast correct on the first link. And the movement there is similar to another movement i saw on this forum. It is also nearly impossible to see the "сделано в ссср" on the dial, so i don't know which font is correct. I atleast feel sure that there is something weird about the second link i sent. All help appreciated 








☭ Watch Raketa Moon Сalendar Quartz 2359 SU Vintage USSR Soviet Original TESTED | eBay


WATCH RAKETA QUARTZ 2359 SU. The watch has a built-in lunar calendar. Caliber of clockwork: 2359 SU. Country/Region of manufacture: USSR. On the case of the watch is small scratches, scuffs from use.



www.ebay.com












Raketa 2359 Moon Phase Vintage Original Soviet Electron Mechanical Watch 1980s | eBay


"Raketa Moon Phases" caliber 2359. In the first position, the moon phase is set for your region. Petrodvorets Watch Factory. An advanced unit with an integrated microcircuit and a stepper motor, which provided an increase in the accuracy of the diurnal course with a significant reduction in the...



www.ebay.com












RAKETA with Real Moon Phases Calendar, Lunar calendar wrist watch, quartz watch | eBay


RAKETA MOONPHASE. RAKETA with moonphase. Displays real moon phases calendar. Width incl. crown - 37mm. Soviet USSR watch.



www.ebay.com




And another question. Would it be as easy to replace the battery on one of these watches compared to a modern quartz watch?


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## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Hello, i've been looking into a Raketa 2359 moon phase made in USSR. I have not found any pictures of the movement online that i am sure are the correct ones. From studying a catalogue i would say that that the crown is atleast correct on the first link. And the movement there is similar to another movement i saw on this forum. It is also nearly impossible to see the "сделано в ссср" on the dial, so i don't know which font is correct. I atleast feel sure that there is something weird about the second link i sent. All help appreciated
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ☭ Watch Raketa Moon Сalendar Quartz 2359 SU Vintage USSR Soviet Original TESTED | eBay
> 
> 
> WATCH RAKETA QUARTZ 2359 SU. The watch has a built-in lunar calendar. Caliber of clockwork: 2359 SU. Country/Region of manufacture: USSR. On the case of the watch is small scratches, scuffs from use.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa 2359 Moon Phase Vintage Original Soviet Electron Mechanical Watch 1980s | eBay
> 
> 
> "Raketa Moon Phases" caliber 2359. In the first position, the moon phase is set for your region. Petrodvorets Watch Factory. An advanced unit with an integrated microcircuit and a stepper motor, which provided an increase in the accuracy of the diurnal course with a significant reduction in the...
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAKETA with Real Moon Phases Calendar, Lunar calendar wrist watch, quartz watch | eBay
> 
> 
> RAKETA MOONPHASE. RAKETA with moonphase. Displays real moon phases calendar. Width incl. crown - 37mm. Soviet USSR watch.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And another question. Would it be as easy to replace the battery on one of these watches compared to a modern quartz watch?


I would NOT buy the 2nd: lots of lost chrome and looks like a replaced (wrong) crystal.
Other 2 look correct to me.

Replacing battery is very easy. Much easier than on some modern watches that you need a press to close back. This one is super easy to open and close.


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> I would NOT buy the 2nd: lots of lost chrome and looks like a replaced (wrong) crystal.
> Other 2 look correct to me.
> 
> Replacing battery is very easy. Much easier than on some modern watches that you need a press to close back. This one is super easy to open and close.


Thank you. How comes both 1 and 3 seems correct when they have different "colours" on the movement? Number one is chromed while number 3 looks more orange. But i guess apart from the colour they look the same on the inside


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Thank you. How comes both 1 and 3 seems correct when they have different "colours" on the movement? Number one is chromed while number 3 looks more orange. But i guess apart from the colour they look the same on the inside


i see they are both Raketa 2359 calibers made in SU. Maybe more knowledgeable member can opine about when the yellow vs chromed one was made. I would imagine both are valid and both were produced late 80s and early 90s.


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## bingobadgo

I found this piece while browsing eBay and the dial really appeals to me. The hands look a bit incongruous to me though and the movement is a 2609 which I think is a 12h movement and not a 24h one so doesn't match the 24h dial. Is this just a bits box mash up or am I missing something? If it is a franken could someone please tell me which watch the dial is from as I would like to find it.
















Sent from my [null] using Tapatalk


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## elsoldemayo

Yes the 2609 is a 12Hr movement which is often modified to be 24Hr. The dial I think is just a fantasy dial and overall it's just a mishmash of parts.


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## bingobadgo

elsoldemayo said:


> Yes the 2609 is a 12Hr movement which is often modified to be 24Hr. The dial I think is just a fantasy dial and overall it's just a mishmash of parts.


Thanks for confirming. I will keep looking then!

Sent from my [null] using Tapatalk


----------



## Ligavesh

Am I dumb or is the number on this watch's backcase 688 - not 889 as it says in it's Passport?










It's an NOS Big Zero with box and papers - not cheap:










Could it be that whoever was writing that Passport simply made a mistake? Cause to me it definitely looks like 688...

edit: close up


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Am I dumb or is the number on this watch's backcase 688 - not 889 as it says in it's Passport?
> 
> View attachment 15628732
> 
> 
> It's an NOS Big Zero with box and papers - not cheap:
> 
> View attachment 15628733
> 
> 
> Could it be that whoever was writing that Passport simply made a mistake? Cause to me it definitely looks like 688...
> 
> edit: close up
> 
> View attachment 15628734


I always knew that fakers are not that bright. People who are bright end up making a nice living w/o tricks. People who are not have a hard time surviving and end up doing low things like tricking innocent people.

Obviously this is the number up side down (hence I am saying whoever did this this is not that bright). If you ask the seller, I bet he is going to say that this was done at the factory... but let me point out that the passport is not for the Big Zero but rather for this watch on the right. Having both of these facts I call: FAKE!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 15629373
> 
> 
> I always knew that fakers are not that bright. People who are bright end up making a nice living w/o tricks. People who are not have a hard time surviving and end up doing low things like tricking innocent people.
> 
> Obviously this is the number up side down (hence I am saying whoever did this this is not that bright). If you ask the seller, I bet he is going to say that this was done at the factory... but let me point out that the passport is not for the Big Zero but rather for this watch on the right. Having both of these facts I call: FAKE!


Also the date: 3.7.92 - wasn't the USSR already gone by that point, hence "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" makes no sense anymore?

Damn, it's hard to find a decent Big Zero... The thing is, as I mentioned in the WRUW thread, I unexpectedly like the design very much, but mine is probably a franken, so it would be nice to find a genuine one, but you can never know... Even the ones with the correct movement and good looking face: there's always a chance that it was made from a less desirable model (case and movement, or just the case) and the dial (faked or just taken from a beaten down watch) and hands from the Big Zero, like the one above...

I think by design the dial wouldn't show signs of aging, so it's hard to tell with good dial fakes whether the watch were genuine or not by comparing the case and dial, or just seeing the dial and being able to tell it's a recent print - except in the obviously poorly done ones...


----------



## 979greenwich

If you've got Big Zero case, movement, hands and dial, then you've got a Big Zero. If it looks like a duck...
80 % of the Big Zero is the dial, hands are the rest.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Also the date: 3.7.92 - wasn't the USSR already gone by that point, hence "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" makes no sense anymore?
> 
> Damn, it's hard to find a decent Big Zero... The thing is, as I mentioned in the WRUW thread, I unexpectedly like the design very much, but mine is probably a franken, so it would be nice to find a genuine one, but you can never know... Even the ones with the correct movement and good looking face: there's always a chance that it was made from a less desirable model (case and movement, or just the case) and the dial (faked or just taken from a beaten down watch) and hands from the Big Zero, like the one above...
> 
> I think by design the dial wouldn't show signs of aging, so it's hard to tell with good dial fakes whether the watch were genuine or not by comparing the case and dial, or just seeing the dial and being able to tell it's a recent print - except in the obviously poorly done ones...


Made in USSR dials were still used for sometime after the USSR was gone. This watch seems to be nice. Just tell the seller that you only want the watch and will pay for the watch alone. He can keep the wrong passport.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Made in USSR dials were still used for sometime after the USSR was gone. This watch seems to be nice. Just tell the seller that you only want the watch and will pay for the watch alone. He can keep the wrong passport.


Comparing similar ads on Etsy, he added ~120-130 dollars (US) to the price because of the 'passport'


----------



## cookiemonster94

I have been looking at some Pobeda "red 12s". I think the ones I found are legit (although not cheap) but, I would like the opinion of the experts.


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> I have been looking at some Pobeda "red 12s". I think the ones I found are legit (although not cheap) but, I would like the opinion of the experts.
> View attachment 15630040
> 
> View attachment 15630041
> 
> View attachment 15630042
> 
> 
> View attachment 15630051
> 
> View attachment 15630052
> 
> View attachment 15630053
> 
> 
> View attachment 15630054
> 
> View attachment 15630055
> 
> View attachment 15630056


All your dials are from 1MChZ. 
I had marked what I think is replaced. Overall: not bad choices I have to say. Finding one completely correct is super hard.







*з*


----------



## cookiemonster94

Thats good enough for me. Thank you for your reply and time.
Is there more to read about Pobeda watches? There are some I am looking at, not just the red 12.


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Thats good enough for me. Thank you for your reply and time.
> Is there more to read about Pobeda watches? There are some I am looking at, not just the red 12.


that was just my personal opinion . See if some other folks can opine as well.

forum like this are the source of the best info.


----------



## Ligavesh

How about this Big Zero:



















?

edit: just realized that the number on the backcase from the movement photo is different from the number on the photo of the backside:










Also, the watch from the movement photo has a different strap than the watch from all the other photos, so clearly it's a different watch's movement... I asked the seller about this - let's see what he says, but so far it looks rather shady...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> How about this Big Zero:
> 
> View attachment 15630472
> 
> 
> View attachment 15630474
> 
> 
> ?


The only thing is a white balance: it is from a Russian production. But the watch has SU stamp and Made in USSR dial... can it be a transition watch? For sure it can be.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> The only thing is a white balance: it is from a Russian production. But the watch has SU stamp and Made in USSR dial... can it be a transition watch? For sure it can be.


see my edit of the post, movement is from a different watch


----------



## Ligavesh

This one to me looks the 'safest' bet, cause it has a Made in Russia dial - so nobody tried to use the magic "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" words to make it more desirable, also the case is worn out, so a legit worn watch I guess?... but what about the movement designation - is that the designation for the Russian made 2609s?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This one to me looks the 'safest' bet, cause it has a Made in Russia dial - so nobody tried to use the magic "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" words to make it more desirable, also the case is worn out, so a legit worn watch I guess?... but what about the movement designation - is that the designation for the Russian made 2609s?
> 
> View attachment 15630551
> 
> 
> View attachment 15630552
> 
> 
> View attachment 15630553


Russian movement with a Soviet (yellow) balance. You can clearly see the balance bridge has a different shade.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Russian movement with a Soviet (yellow) balance. You can clearly see the balance bridge has a different shade.


well okay, maybe the (inferior) Russian movement needed it's balance replaced, so they put in a (superior) Soviet one  - at least you know the watch has been serviced at some point...

but other than that, does it look legit? I'm mostly concerned about the hands not having such rounded tips as I've seen on other BZs - but maybe that's how they've made them later on?

edit: btw, the seller of the previous watch (with different backside numbers on different fotos) said thise were fotos of different watches, and he would sell me a third one as the ones on the fotos have already been sold - somehow I'm weary of sellers who have so many NOS Big Zeroes to sell...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> well okay, maybe the (inferior) Russian movement needed it's balance replaced, so they put in a (superior) Soviet one  - at least you know the watch has been serviced at some point...
> 
> but other than that, does it look legit? I'm mostly concerned about the hands not having such rounded tips as I've seen on other BZs - but maybe that's how they've made them later on?
> 
> edit: btw, the seller of the previous watch (with different backside numbers on different fotos) said thise were fotos of different watches, and he would sell me a third one as the ones on the fotos have already been sold - somehow I'm weary of sellers who have so many NOS Big Zeroes to sell...


true, the replacement of the balance can be seen as a good thing. You decide. 
i do not see any other issues.


----------



## Ligavesh

Okay, one more and I promise it's the end of it...

seller from my previous post sent me pictures of _another _Big Zero in NOS condition with this movement:










Is the silver balance wheel typical/correct?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Okay, one more and I promise it's the end of it...
> 
> seller from my previous post sent me pictures of _another _Big Zero in NOS condition with this movement:
> 
> View attachment 15631414
> 
> 
> Is the silver balance wheel typical/correct?


silver balance is made in Russia. But the watch is stamped as SU. Theoretically it is possible that these are all transition watches....


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> silver balance is made in Russia. But the watch is stamped as SU. Theoretically it is possible that these are all transition watches....


thanks for answering quickly, sorry to bother you so much 

I may be making a mistake, but I think I'm gonna go with @979greenwich 's logic:


979greenwich said:


> If you've got Big Zero case, movement, hands and dial, then you've got a Big Zero. If it looks like a duck...
> 80 % of the Big Zero is the dial, hands are the rest.


thanks again  no more Big Zero talk


----------



## Ligavesh

While I was looking for a Big Zero, I stumbled upon a curious Raketa that I'd never seen before:










Anyone know something about this model? Description says it's from the '80s...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> While I was looking for a Big Zero, I stumbled upon a curious Raketa that I'd never seen before:
> 
> View attachment 15631633
> 
> 
> Anyone know something about this model? Description says it's from the '80s...












there were many models with this, in my opinion questionable, lug design....


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 15631642
> 
> 
> there were many models with this, in my opinion questionable, lug design....


haha, yeah it is questionable, probably not most functional, but also unique and interesting I'd say... I might go for it, I'll think about it... if someone finds it in a catalog, I'd like to compare the hands (although to me they seem well incorporated in the design, so likely original) and the movement.


----------



## haygohay

Hi! Came across this Raketa Copernicus!
















Could anyone tell me if this is a Real Raketa Copernicus, or a Franken-Copernicus?

Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

haygohay said:


> Hi! Came across this Raketa Copernicus!
> View attachment 15633358
> View attachment 15633359
> 
> 
> Could anyone tell me if this is a Real Raketa Copernicus, or a Franken-Copernicus?
> 
> Thanks!


It is real with a wrong movement.


----------



## system11

What about this one?










Can't find this in catalogues.


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> What about this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't find this in catalogues.


looks like a small batch/custom order....


----------



## system11

Interesting, not sure I will buy it as IMO it is too expensive and I already spent way too much on something I will reveal when (if) it arrives.


----------



## Novatime

What are people's thoughts on this Raketa 2209? It looks like the 813096 model (matches that on p.68 of the Каталог часов Ракета, 1967 - Машприборинторг catalog). I think it may have a replacement crown and I'm not sure about the crystal (seems to be in too good condition to be original and I don't know the correct shape for this model).


----------



## Odessa200

Novatime said:


> What are people's thoughts on this Raketa 2209? It looks like the 813096 model (matches that on p.68 of the Каталог часов Ракета, 1967 - Машприборинторг catalog). I think it may have a replacement crown and I'm not sure about the crystal (seems to be in too good condition to be original and I don't know the correct shape for this model).
> View attachment 15641127
> 
> View attachment 15641128
> 
> View attachment 15641129
> 
> View attachment 15641130
> 
> View attachment 15641131


I agree. I have this model and just showed it on my Insta feed a few days ago. The crown and crystal are wrong. But the dial is great. I would buy it if I were you. If you decide not to buy send me the link . Cheers


----------



## Novatime

I missed that post on your Insta (which is superb BTW!), but thanks for confirming. I did indeed buy it a couple of days ago. I had it on my eBay watch list and then the seller made a price drop offer of $100 which seemed to good to pass up in this condition. Now I just have to wait for it to come from Moldova. I've been wanting a Raketa Atom in good condition for a while and this 2209 model also appeals to me very much.


----------



## Odessa200

Novatime said:


> I missed that post on your Insta (which is superb BTW!), but thanks for confirming. I did indeed buy it a couple of days ago. I had it on my eBay watch list and then the seller made a price drop offer of $100 which seemed to good to pass up in this condition. Now I just have to wait for it to come from Moldova. I've been wanting a Raketa Atom in good condition for a while and this 2209 model also appeals to me very much.


Great! Congrats! Just be gentle when winding and time changing. This caliber is called 'record' is notorious for problems with keyless.

Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## Yossarian22

Hello, I’m looking to buy my first Russian watch. Please can anyone help me know if this is authentic. It stacks up gfrom what I’ve read but the face condition seems almost too good. Thanks for any help


----------



## Maxsterr

Hello, i am back again with a new sputnik i found. I didn't get the first one i asked about. So far i have seen that the crown is replaced on this one. However i am unsure about the rest, movement, crystal etc. It's hard to see but i kinda think the crystal is more spherical than the last watch i looked at.


----------



## Odessa200

Yossarian22 said:


> Hello, I'm looking to buy my first Russian watch. Please can anyone help me know if this is authentic. It stacks up gfrom what I've read but the face condition seems almost too good. Thanks for any help


welcome. Crystal looks wrong. The rest is right as fas asI can see.


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Hello, i am back again with a new sputnik i found. I didn't get the first one i asked about. So far i have seen that the crown is replaced on this one. However i am unsure about the rest, movement, crystal etc. It's hard to see but i kinda think the crystal is more spherical than the last watch i looked at.
> View attachment 15643832
> View attachment 15643833
> View attachment 15643834
> View attachment 15643835
> View attachment 15643836
> View attachment 15643837
> View attachment 15643838
> View attachment 15643839
> View attachment 15643840
> View attachment 15643841


You got it. Crown is replaced. Back is polished. Crystal is most likely replaced (cause they do not last that long) and what is installed is OK as far as I can see. Movement is right.


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> You got it. Crown is replaced. Back is polished. Crystal is most likely replaced (cause they do not last that long) and what is installed is OK as far as I can see. Movement is right.


Thank you! Makes sense that the back has been polished. I was thinking about how come it could look so new haha. But it's good the movement, dial and hands are right (and i assume case).


----------



## Yossarian22

Odessa200 said:


> welcome. Crystal looks wrong. The rest is right as fas asI can see.


Thanks Odessa200. Think I'm going to make the leap!


----------



## Ligavesh

How does this Rodina look:

















?


----------



## Ligavesh

Also this Luch:


----------



## elsoldemayo

Pretty sure the Luch has a replacement dial.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> How does this Rodina look:
> 
> View attachment 15648339
> 
> 
> View attachment 15648342
> ?


wrong seconds hand and crown. The rest is Ok


----------



## Ligavesh

elsoldemayo said:


> Pretty sure the Luch has a replacement dial.


These dials are by design so simple - isn't it hard to tell whether they've aged or are new?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Ligavesh said:


> These dials are by design so simple - isn't it hard to tell whether they've aged or are new?


Not really, check the examples on Dashiell's site. He has a few similar to the example you show and all have a indices that are curved at the end but straight sided. The picture here has indices with a continuous curve. 
Also, checking the one above again, the hands are wrong as well.


----------



## Ligavesh

Okay, on to the next one....

Which of these (if any) has the correct hands?


----------



## Ligavesh

Crown here replaced?


----------



## bobby54

Hello i continue to be interested in russian watch and almost with 3133 to complete my collection
I've seen 3 watches, whath do you think about ?
I want 3133 in good condition and quite legit, difficult...
Thanks for your advices
watch 1:
















watch 2
















watch 3


----------



## PiotrS

Watch 1.
IMO
The new version of the mechanism. Case good condition!
Is fine. Second hand. I believe it should be black, blue was around 1991-92 and up. This is not much of a problem.
Watch 2
Version from 1990-92 and above. Is fine. Maybe a chronograph second hand, but I'm not sure .... do you have a better picture? The two buttons are steel, I think. They should be chrome.
There is not one mounting bolt. Right corner.
I don't know if I am writing it correctly.
The mechanism is dirty ...
The copper plate has no spring? Broken spring?
Chron second minute.... not working?

Watch 3
Old version.
Year of production around 1984-86. My favorite. Is fine.
but 
The two buttons are steel, I think. They should be chrome.
I don't know if the mounting bolts have washers?

All of them do not have the original gaskets.


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Okay, on to the next one....
> 
> Which of these (if any) has the correct hands?
> 
> View attachment 15649512
> 
> 
> View attachment 15649513


Neither, again the answer can be found on Dashiell's site ...


----------



## MattBrace

bobby54 said:


> Hello i continue to be interested in russian watch and almost with 3133 to complete my collection
> I've seen 3 watches, whath do you think about ?
> I want 3133 in good condition and quite legit, difficult...
> Thanks for your advices
> watch 1:
> View attachment 15649562
> View attachment 15649563
> 
> 
> watch 2
> View attachment 15649565
> View attachment 15649566
> 
> 
> watch 3
> View attachment 15649567
> View attachment 15649568


Example number 1 would probably suit your requirements best, an original example.

The case gasket is original and blue seconds sub dial hand also.

Cheers...


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Neither, again the answer can be found on Dashiell's site ...
> 
> View attachment 15649614
> View attachment 15649615


or a catalog....


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Crown here replaced?
> 
> View attachment 15649559
> 
> 
> View attachment 15649560
> 
> 
> View attachment 15649561


Probably


----------



## PiotrS

MattBrace said:


> Example number 1 would probably suit your requirements best, an original example.
> 
> The case gasket is original and blue seconds sub dial hand also.
> 
> Cheers...


Look at the catalogs from 1993-1994, for the domestic (ПОЛЕТ) and the europe (POLJOT) market.
In these watch there is a silver balance wheel. I don't know any other facts.If you know, show me I will change my opinion.
Anyway, it is only important to me .
















Gasket 
Old werk (before 1987). That's a little problem.


----------



## MattBrace

PiotrS said:


> Look at the catalogs from 1993-1994, for the domestic (ПОЛЕТ) and the europe (POLJOT) market.
> In these watch there is a silver balance wheel. I don't know any other facts.If you know, show me I will change my opinion.
> Anyway, it is only important to me .
> View attachment 15651245
> View attachment 15651246
> 
> 
> Gasket
> Old werk (before 1987). That's a little problem.
> View attachment 15651251


My observations are based on studies of NOS examples with matching paperwork, of course catalogue references are helpful but they don't create a rule, Poljot was renowned for using out of date stock photos, the blue sub seconds hand seem to have been introduced earlier than 1990. Black rubber gaskets were certainly being used by 1984 as I have a NOS Okeah with one, of course these can easily be changed at service. My observations are only for the first shown example number 1.

Of course like you I enjoy the information and study of rare 3133 examples.

Cheers...


----------



## PiotrS

Well, then, I have to change my mind about the gasket , thx.

Blue sekunde hand sub dial... 
this is the most broken part, because it works all the time.
In 1992 and up, it was common and was replaced at the watchmaker.

Anyway, these are unimportant details.
Thx.


----------



## Bar5917

Hello everybody! 
I wondered if you can help me with these kirovskies...
are any of them franken?

#1
















#2














this one sells a lot higher then the other 2, is this because of the condition? is there another reason?

#3


----------



## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> Hello everybody!
> I wondered if you can help me with these kirovskies...
> are any of them franken?
> 
> #1
> View attachment 15654387
> View attachment 15654388
> 
> 
> #2
> View attachment 15654389
> View attachment 15654390
> this one sells a lot higher then the other 2, is this because of the condition? is there another reason?
> 
> #3
> View attachment 15654391
> View attachment 15654394


gladly!
1) wrong second hand
2) correct watch
3) wrong hour and minute hands, wrong screw on the ratchet wheel

cheers!


----------



## Bar5917

Odessa200 said:


> gladly!
> 1) wrong second hand
> 2) correct watch
> 3) wrong hour and minute hands, wrong screw on the ratchet wheel
> 
> cheers!


thank you!
how much would you value the watch?

I'm also interested in these two so if you can check them I would be thankful...


----------



## Bar5917

forgot the movements...


----------



## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> thank you!
> how much would you value the watch?
> 
> I'm also interested in these two so if you can check them I would be thankful...
> 
> View attachment 15654555
> View attachment 15654556


price which on?
Vostok: replaced crown
Kirovskie: replaced hands and case

the rest is ok


----------



## Bar5917

Odessa200 said:


> price which on?
> Vostok: replaced crown
> Kirovskie: replaced hands
> 
> the rest is ok


price for the kirovskie I showed 3 of


----------



## Odessa200

Bar5917 said:


> price for the kirovskie I showed 3 of


these would be the max amounts I would be willing to pay if I needed this model. 
1) 35$
2) 150$
3) 35$


----------



## twd_2003

Hey guys,
I'm a total newbie to Russian watches (and mechanical watches). I'm rather interested in picking up this late eighties Vostok Komanderskie as my first. I did look at images from other folks' collections, and look for any obvious giveaways, but I just wanted to double-check with people more experienced than I. Would it be possible for anyone here to confirm whether this watch is legit, and if so how much would you pay for it yourself?


----------



## twd_2003

Also, could anyone have a look at this watch as well? I think the bezel may be a replacement but I'm unsure whether that's the only non-original part


----------



## Cernunos

In my opinion both are legit. Dials (zakaz) hands and cases are good but i hesitate about the bezels


----------



## Ligavesh

Cernunos said:


> In my opinion both are legit. Dials (zakaz) hands and cases are good but i hesitate about the bezels


Eh, the bezels were common at the time, they look aged, I see no reason to think they're not original...


----------



## twd_2003

Ligavesh said:


> Eh, the bezels were common at the time, they look aged, I see no reason to think they're not original...


Thanks for your help. If you were purchasing them yourself, what would be the max amount you'd be willing to pay?


----------



## Ligavesh

twd_2003 said:


> Thanks for your help. If you were purchasing them yourself, what would be the max amount you'd be willing to pay?


Eh, I'm not the best person to ask, I've been known to naively over-pay for watches... I don't know 30 - maybe 40 US dollars a piece if they are in good condition (i.e. serviced) and because they have that magical "ЗАКАЗ МО СССР" line...


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Hi All!

It seems I have caught the Soviet watch bug and now have my eyes on quite a few Pobedas 

I would love some input on these two 1958 Pobedas with rather unique/clean dials (I have matched them against some examples in mroatman's catalogue).

It looks like they have new crystals, but my questions is primarily on the movements.

Both seem to have generic ratchet wheels, which I believe is not original (should have russian text & 3 stars right?)
Both are from the same 2MWF but have different stamps - one is the "423" stamp and the other is the "circular logo" stamp - is this common or did the logo change between 2-58 and 3-58?
I have seen the date and serial number in different places on different Pobedas - was this common as well? (Sometimes the date is vertical, others its horizontal)
It also seems the movements may be missing a few of the jewels - is this common or concerning? 

I believe seller is looking for around $100 each which seems maybe high, but the dials are quite lovely. Would love this forum's input!

THANK YOU!


----------



## Odessa200

1st let me tell you that if a movement is missing jewels it will not work. And it is very uncommon for any watch that is sold as a watch (not as parts) to have missing jewels. On the above 2 watches nothing is missing.

the logo indeed chanded in 1958 so that is possible.

i would not pay 100$ each. This is about double the price.

2mchz was doing movement with the clean ratchet wheel but I think later. These ratchet wheels replaced. You can also see they are different: one is flat (totally wrong, does not match the beveled winding wheel) and one has beveled teeth (better and potentially correct). 

location of stamps varies between different factories and years.


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Thank you Odessa for the information!


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Sekonda-marked 30 jewels Poljot Amphibian? I think the hands have been re-lumed, they seem whiter than the indices and they shine brighter in the loom shot, but otherwise?


----------



## Odessa200

I think hands are relumed otherwise good


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> I think hands are relumed otherwise good


Is the 30-jewels version more sought after? Cause the price is higher. Tbh, I'm not sure I could get by the relumed hands - not for the money - they're too obvious.


----------



## dutchassasin

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Sekonda-marked 30 jewels Poljot Amphibian? I think the hands have been re-lumed, they seem whiter than the indices and they shine brighter in the loom shot, but otherwise?


Its been for sale since like 2016, another member asked and its no good. the dial is from this model according to member Straight_time.


----------



## Ligavesh

dutchassasin said:


> Its been for sale since like 2016, another member asked and its no good. the dial is from this model according to member Straight_time.
> 
> View attachment 15671878


Thanks! I thought there was something not quite right with the indices...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks! I thought there was something not quite right with the indices...


true. My bad... was busy checking something else. Too bad.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> true. My bad... was busy checking something else. Too bad.


Eh it happens in a hurry, I also didn't think about the indices, was focused on the lume color, the hands, the crown... Shame that it doesn't have the right dial, cause everything else is good apparently - maybe he would sell it after 4 years if he lowered the price, but I guess he counts on suckers like I was till half a year ago to come by 

On the other hand - what the hell is going on with the prices on Etsy, do they live in a parallel world with no ebay? There's a lovely Chaika for sale, but the price is too much atm (although I'll probably end up buying it in a couple of months the most).


----------



## Ligavesh

So about that Chaika... are these correct:

















?


----------



## elsoldemayo

They look ok, although considering how the crown on the lower one fits the notch perfectly vs how it looks on the top pic, the top one may have had a crown change.


----------



## Ligavesh

elsoldemayo said:


> They look ok, although considering how the crown on the lower one fits the notch perfectly vs how it looks on the top pic, the top one may have had a crown change.


The crown has been changed for sure on the first one and that would definitely bother me, cause it sticks too much out; if I were to buy it I would be on the lookout for an original crown or cheap Chaikas with an original or at least a better fitting one to replace that one... My question was more hands/dial/case combination -on MrOatman's site the second one is in a golden case, but he probably doesn't have all the combinations.


----------



## Ligavesh

While I'm waiting for more opinions on that Chaika, do you think that this Vostok is genuine or franken:








?

I couldn't find it in MrOatman's collection, but maybe someone has seen it in a catalog - or maybe it's a mish-mash of two 2209s...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> The crown has been changed for sure on the first one and that would definitely bother me, cause it sticks too much out; if I were to buy it I would be on the lookout for an original crown or cheap Chaikas with an original or at least a better fitting one to replace that one... My question was more hands/dial/case combination -on MrOatman's site the second one is in a golden case, but he probably doesn't have all the combinations.


franken. Here are 2 catalogs. One has the chromed ver. Another has the golden. Hands/indexes/case must match in color.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> While I'm waiting for more opinions on that Chaika, do you think that this Vostok is genuine or franken:
> 
> View attachment 15675753
> ?
> 
> I couldn't find it in MrOatman's collection, but maybe someone has seen it in a catalog - or maybe it's a mish-mash of two 2209s...


franken imho.


----------



## cookiemonster94

I've found another Pobeda that I personally find more interesting than the Red 12.
It looks legit to me.





























Price is good too.


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> I've found another Pobeda that I personally find more interesting than the Red 12.
> It looks legit to me.
> View attachment 15677998
> 
> View attachment 15678000
> 
> View attachment 15678001
> 
> View attachment 15678003
> 
> 
> Price is good too.


not bad but unfortunately the hands are wrong. Sorry.


----------



## cookiemonster94

Hmm, bummer.
I might still get it because the price is not bad and the overal condition of the watch is good.
Could you link me that Pobeda catalogue?


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

What do we think to this ? Wondering if the font looks a bit heavy and wonky


----------



## bobby54

Hello Kamarades,
Always trying to collect more and more russians watches. and aways lookinf for your advices 

What do you thinks of these two, and what a correct price ?

Thanks !!!

Raketa Atom















Slava


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Hmm, bummer.
> I might still get it because the price is not bad and the overal condition of the watch is good.
> Could you link me that Pobeda catalogue?


There is a sticky on this forum with all the catalogs


----------



## Odessa200

jamesnorrisuk said:


> What do we think to this ? Wondering if the font looks a bit heavy and wonky
> View attachment 15678549


1) dial and hands from a gilded version (wrong case)
2) dial is repainted


----------



## Odessa200

bobby54 said:


> Hello Kamarades,
> Always trying to collect more and more russians watches. and aways lookinf for your advices
> 
> What do you thinks of these two, and what a correct price ?
> 
> Thanks !!!
> 
> Raketa Atom
> View attachment 15678845
> View attachment 15678847
> 
> Slava
> 
> View attachment 15678849
> View attachment 15678851


Both are nice in my opinion


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

Odessa200 said:


> 1) dial and hands from a gilded version (wrong case)
> 2) dial is repainted


Thanks Odessa, makes sense


----------



## Storm1

Hello! What do you think about this Sturmanskie "Gagarin" 15j movement? Is it authentic?

ETA: just realised I might have posted this to the wrong thread 🙃


----------



## bobby54

Odessa200 said:


> Both are nice in my opinion


Thanks Odessa. I


jamesnorrisuk said:


> Thanks Odessa, makes sense


Thanks Odessa. So i ll give away to my wishes...


----------



## Odessa200

Storm1 said:


> View attachment 15679238
> Hello! What do you think about this Sturmanskie "Gagarin" 15j movement? Is it authentic?
> 
> ETA: just realised I might have posted this to the wrong thread 🙃


Looks good to me.


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

Any thoughts on this on this Okeah folk?


----------



## Odessa200

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Any thoughts on this on this Okeah folk?
> 
> View attachment 15680947
> View attachment 15680948
> View attachment 15680950


my thoughts it is fake (dial, hands) but it maybe some late re-issue. But not a Soviet Okean


----------



## dutchassasin

jamesnorrisuk said:


> Any thoughts on this on this Okeah folk?
> 
> View attachment 15680947


Fake Dial, fake hands, sturmanskie back. Total ****ter, avoid at all cost!


----------



## jamesnorrisuk

dutchassasin said:


> Fake Dial, fake hands, sturmanskie back. Total ****ter, avoid at all cost!





Odessa200 said:


> my thoughts it is fake (dial, hands) but it maybe some late re-issue. But not a Soviet Okean


I thought it looked suspect and the price was too good to be true, but thank god for this forum! I have much to learn from you, wise masters...


----------



## Notaswiss

Hi guys! I found a Raketa World Time listing I am really interested in. Could you help me identify if anything is off?

here is a link to all the provided photos





OLX.bg - безплатни обяви


OLX.bg e сайт за безплатни обяви. Тук може да намериш интересни обяви и лесно да се свържеш с продавача. Ако искаш да купиш нещо - може да намериш атрактивни предложения на цени, по-ниски, отколкото в магазина. Ако искаш да продадеш нещо - можеш да добавиш обява бързо, лесно и безплатно (до...




www.olx.bg


----------



## Odessa200

Notaswiss said:


> Hi guys! I found a Raketa World Time listing I am really interested in. Could you help me identify if anything is off?
> 
> here is a link to all the provided photos
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OLX.bg - безплатни обяви
> 
> 
> OLX.bg e сайт за безплатни обяви. Тук може да намериш интересни обяви и лесно да се свържеш с продавача. Ако искаш да купиш нещо - може да намериш атрактивни предложения на цени, по-ниски, отколкото в магазина. Ако искаш да продадеш нещо - можеш да добавиш обява бързо, лесно и безплатно (до...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.olx.bg


Welcome. Looks good. Back cover is replaced but otherwise looks right.


----------



## Notaswiss

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. Looks good. Back cover is replaced but otherwise looks right.










glad to be here!








I just got more photos of the watch from the guy listing it. Here they are


----------



## Vumbo

Hi guys I've been looking to get a Raketa Copernicus. Specifically the one with a white dial and written numbers.
I have found this listing but noticed the movement type is stamped on the ratchet wheel instead of the bridge. So hereby my question, is it legit, franken or even fake?
I added some extra photos aside from the movement to get your opinion on as well, thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Vumbo said:


> Hi guys I've been looking to get a Raketa Copernicus. Specifically the one with a white dial and written numbers.
> I have found this listing but noticed the movement type is stamped on the ratchet wheel instead of the bridge. So hereby my question, is it legit, franken or even fake?
> I added some extra photos aside from the movement to get your opinion on as well, thanks
> View attachment 15683445
> View attachment 15683447
> View attachment 15683448


Legit but I cannot see what the stamp is. HA or NP? Should be NP. Looks like the stamp has SU but the dial is Made in Russia. Still can be a legit transition watch: Soviet movement and Russian dial. Cheers


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Legit but I cannot see what the stamp is. HA or NP? Should be NP. Looks like the stamp has SU but the dial is Made in Russia. Still can be a legit transition watch: Soviet movement and Russian dial. Cheers


I think it's "НП":


----------



## Vumbo

Odessa200 said:


> Legit but I cannot see what the stamp is. HA or NP? Should be NP. Looks like the stamp has SU but the dial is Made in Russia. Still can be a legit transition watch: Soviet movement and Russian dial. Cheers


Thanks for your reply,
It is the 2609HП, so that checks out.
Can you explain what the difference is between the Russian and Soviet dial?
Is there any specific difference between the movements whether the type mark is on the bridge or ratchet wheel?
By transition watch, do you mean the watch would be made from the year 91 or later?
I'm sorry if these questions don't line up with this discussion topic. Please let me know if I should post elsewhere.


----------



## Ligavesh

Vumbo said:


> Thanks for your reply,
> It is the 2609HП, so that checks out.
> Can you explain what the difference is between the Russian and Soviet dial?
> Is there any specific difference between the movements whether the type mark is on the bridge or ratchet wheel?
> By transition watch, do you mean the watch would be made from the year 91 or later?
> I'm sorry if these questions don't line up with this discussion topic. Please let me know if I should post elsewhere.


Soviet dial has "СДЕЛАНО В СССР", Russian either has nothing (transitional years post break up) or "СДЕЛАНО В РОСИИ". 
No difference in the movements.
Yes, that's what transitional watch means.


----------



## Ligavesh

I didn't want to open a new thread just for one question, I guess it's best I ask here : Does anyone know when did the Vostok 420 case first came about - already in the USSR or later, after the break up?

edit: I'm mostly interested because of this piece:










Could it be that it's a transplant from an old case in a new(er) 420? The dial and hands seem fine, bezel too...


----------



## Avidfan

As you can see from the 1992 calendar image this dial should be in the old 020 case, that bezel isn't in the catalogues but it might be ok on that case (IMHO), but both the 420 and 020 cases date to around 1990...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> As you can see from the 1992 calendar image this dial should be in the old 020 case, that bezel isn't in the catalogues but it might be ok on that case (IMHO), but both the 420 and 020 cases date to around 1990...
> 
> View attachment 15684820


So the only thing to do would be to take a look at the movement- of which there is no picture, to see if it's really a 2409 inside.

Thanks a lot!


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> So the only thing to do would be to take a look at the movement- of which there is no picture, to see if it's really a 2409 inside.
> 
> Thanks a lot!


It should be a 2409A inside, the 2415 auto movement is a modern calibre not found on Soviet Amphibia, and of course it should have the usual 3 tab anti-magnetic shield inside covering the movement...

And if you're confused about the 020 / 420 cases here's a image from an old thread showing the difference, the 420 was for the 2416b and the thinner 020 was meant for the 2409A / 2414A, but after the end of the SU this wasn't adhered to all the time...


----------



## Ligavesh

The black seconds hand on this Soyuz can't be authentic, can it?


----------



## nwack

Pobeda K-34. This back is all wrong right but is anything else off?


----------



## Vumbo

Odessa200 said:


> Legit but I cannot see what the stamp is. HA or NP? Should be NP. Looks like the stamp has SU but the dial is Made in Russia. Still can be a legit transition watch: Soviet movement and Russian dial. Cheers


Isn't it more likely to be a frankenwatch than a transition watch?
How can I be sure. I'm at the verge of making the purchase now.


----------



## Odessa200

Vumbo said:


> Isn't it more likely to be a frankenwatch than a transition watch?
> How can I be sure. I'm at the verge of making the purchase now.


you cannot. If you want to be sure get a watch that has all parts matching: from USSR or from Russia.


----------



## Odessa200

nwack said:


> View attachment 15686210
> Pobeda K-34. This back is all wrong right but is anything else off?


I also saw it. Looks good to me except the back


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> The black seconds hand on this Soyuz can't be authentic, can it?
> 
> View attachment 15686200


It can be. I've seen gold, white and red. Can be black as well as far as I am concerned: a similar watch is only present once in a catalog....


----------



## elsoldemayo

This movement is too old for this watch, right?


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> This movement is too old for this watch, right?
> 
> View attachment 15687041
> 
> 
> View attachment 15687042


Yes, this is early 60th movement


----------



## Krawczak

This Pobeda red 12 looks pretty good to my eyes, but what do you all think? And what would you pay for it? (New poster BTW, hi!)


----------



## Odessa200

Krawczak said:


> This Pobeda red 12 looks pretty good to my eyes, but what do you all think? And what would you pay for it? (New poster BTW, hi!)
> 
> View attachment 15687054
> 
> View attachment 15687056
> 
> 
> View attachment 15687053


Hello! The problem is that, imho, this dial is from 1MChZ.... I can tell apart Red 12 dials from all factories (they are all different) except ChChZ so I am personally avoiding ChChZ Red 12....


----------



## Krawczak

Sorry, I don't quite follow. You're saying that watches from this factory are low quality or that the dial is mismatched to the movement or...?
I apologize, I am an utter noob


----------



## markperson

Hi everyone, first time poster for this specific purpose. looking at two right now. First is a 23 jewel 1 MChZ Poljot:



















Second is this "Zakaz MO SSSR" Komandirskie:


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> It can be. I've seen gold, white and red. Can be black as well as far as I am concerned: a similar watch is only present once in a catalog....


What was the color in the catalog, was it silver for all hands? Tbh, it's a very nice example, I could just sacrifice a beat up Raketa with the same seconds hand for it...


----------



## zapzap

Hello everyone,

I've been lurking this forum for quite some time now, satisfying my interest in Vostok watches. Strangely, I've never owned one. But I knew this forum might come in handy someday and that day surely has come.
I scored a lot of 3 Komandirskie watches dirt cheap. I mean the pricetag said: if you can build one decent Komandirskie out of them it's still a good value. 
Well, I was surprised. The black dial Komandirskie looks vintage but nice. Some cleaning and crystal polishing and it should be more than presentable. The Paratrooper looks even better and it came with a passport which seems legit, judging from the translator. Did I mention that all 3 movements are running alright? I will definitely service them but it's a good starting point.
Okay, now here's where I need your help:
The third Komandirskie with the submarine logo came in a case without crystal and seconds hand. I removed the movement and prepared the case parts for the ultrasonic. Before the US I decided to measure the inner diameter for the crystal. Surely it had to be 30.2mm as all Komandirskie have that size right? Wrong! To my surprise the inner diameter is 29mm. That puzzled me. So I started googling cases and tried to find this one, including the compass bezel. However, I couldn't find it. So I'm pretty sure that this one's a frankenwatch. What do the experts say? And regarding the other two, they're looking legit right?
Thanks for your insights!


----------



## mariomart

zapzap said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been lurking this forum for quite some time now, satisfying my interest in Vostok watches. Strangely, I've never owned one. But I knew this forum might come in handy someday and that day surely has come.
> I scored a lot of 3 Komandirskie watches dirt cheap. I mean the pricetag said: if you can build one decent Komandirskie out of them it's still a good value.
> Well, I was surprised. The black dial Komandirskie looks vintage but nice. Some cleaning and crystal polishing and it should be more than presentable. The Paratrooper looks even better and it came with a passport which seems legit, judging from the translator. Did I mention that all 3 movements are running alright? I will definitely service them but it's a good starting point.
> Okay, now here's where I need your help:
> The third Komandirskie with the submarine logo came in a case without crystal and seconds hand. I removed the movement and prepared the case parts for the ultrasonic. Before the US I decided to measure the inner diameter for the crystal. Surely it had to be 30.2mm as all Komandirskie have that size right? Wrong! To my surprise the inner diameter is 29mm. That puzzled me. So I started googling cases and tried to find this one, including the compass bezel. However, I couldn't find it. So I'm pretty sure that this one's a frankenwatch. What do the experts say? And regarding the other two, they're looking legit right?
> Thanks for your insights!


Hello and Welcome to the forum 

If I had to guess about the blue submarine I would say that the case comes from the "Vostok Century Time" or "Vostok Partner" range of watches. This particular case would have originally been fitted with a flat glass crystal (not domed acrylic like the Komandirskie range). It is indeed a Franken. However if you could source an original Type 341 Komandirskie case, crown/stem and bezel you could make it all original again.

That paratrooper is lovely, well done on the total purchases, 3 running movements is always a win.

Looking forward to seeing where you go with this.

Cheers, Mario


----------



## Ligavesh

mariomart said:


> However if you could source an original Type 341 Komandirskie case, crown/stem and bezel you could make it all original again.


Shouldn't be too hard.


----------



## zapzap

mariomart said:


> Hello and Welcome to the forum
> 
> If I had to guess about the blue submarine I would say that the case comes from the "Vostok Century Time" or "Vostok Partner" range of watches. This particular case would have originally been fitted with a flat glass crystal (not domed acrylic like the Komandirskie range). It is indeed a Franken. However if you could source an original Type 341 Komandirskie case, crown/stem and bezel you could make it all original again.
> 
> That paratrooper is lovely, well done on the total purchases, 3 running movements is always a win.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing where you go with this.
> 
> Cheers, Mario


Hey there Mario,

Thanks for your expertise. The submarine was probably fitted with a mineral crystal as one can see from the residue of old glue.
So now I'll try to figure out what to do next. Well I know, first full service for all three movements. And then maybe the 341 case combo. Or a sapphire crystall with the franken case. I could see me going either way since the case it came with isn't to shabby either. Only time will tell. 
Anyhow, have a great day, I'm off to bed now.


----------



## Odessa200

Krawczak said:


> Sorry, I don't quite follow. You're saying that watches from this factory are low quality or that the dial is mismatched to the movement or...?
> I apologize, I am an utter noob


I am saying this the dial potentially mismatches the movement.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What was the color in the catalog, was it silver for all hands? Tbh, it's a very nice example, I could just sacrifice a beat up Raketa with the same seconds hand for it...


 Catalog has golden with all golden hands


----------



## Odessa200

markperson said:


> Hi everyone, first time poster for this specific purpose. looking at two right now. First is a 23 jewel 1 MChZ Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 15687246
> 
> 
> View attachment 15687247
> 
> 
> Second is this "Zakaz MO SSSR" Komandirskie:
> 
> View attachment 15687253
> 
> 
> View attachment 15687254


Poljot: looks nice. Crown looks replaced. Is there a crack in the crystal at the bottom edge? Do you realize how small this watch is? Just asking...

Komandirskie: i would pass. Mix of parts as far as I can see. Calendar should be red. Crown is wrong. Lume is badly redone on the dial and hands. Looks like the watch is put together for a quick sale.


----------



## Notaswiss

Hey guys, is that Poljot genuine? I am mostly concerned with the dial


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> If I had to guess about the blue submarine I would say that the case comes from the "Vostok Century Time" or "Vostok Partner" range of watches. This particular case would have originally been fitted with a flat glass crystal (not domed acrylic like the Komandirskie range). It is indeed a Franken. However if you could source an original Type 341 Komandirskie case, crown/stem and bezel you could make it all original again.


It's a quite scarce type 64 Komandirskie case, comrade @ill-phill has one in his collection here Type 64 so the watch would be a Komandirskie 641289 made in 2004 or later judging from those short lume hands and the type of 289 dial it has, I don't know where a crystal could be found for it though...


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> It's a quite scarce type 64 Komandirskie case, comrade @ill-phill has one in his collection here Type 64 so the watch would be a Komandirskie 641289 made in 2004 or later judging from those short lume hands and the type of 289 dial it has, I don't know where a crystal could be found for it though...


Wow, excellent information yet again 

I was not aware of the Type 64 case, what a shame the original configuration, for what ever reason, was changed out for the submarine.

Old dog still learning new tricks


----------



## Odessa200

Notaswiss said:


> Hey guys, is that Poljot genuine? I am mostly concerned with the dial
> View attachment 15687476


No. Fake dial. Wrong crown. Also there are very very few Deluxes that are not in a gilded case. Next time you see a deluxe in a Chone: run away!
remember: Deluxe is a luxury watch. Gilded or stainless steel. Never chrome.


----------



## Notaswiss

Odessa200 said:


> No. Fake dial. Also there are very very few Deluxes that are not in a gilded case. Next time you see a deluxe in a Chone: run away!


the seller actually has one in a gilded case, but it's the same fake dial so... too bad, looked nice

What about that Luch? I actually got this one, it's another 2209, I hope it's genuine


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> Wow, excellent information yet again
> 
> I was not aware of the Type 64 case, what a shame the original configuration, for what ever reason, was changed out for the submarine.
> 
> Old dog still learning new tricks


I think there's a good chance that the 289 blue sub dial is the original configuration, I can't prove it though


----------



## markperson

Odessa200 said:


> Poljot: looks nice. Crown looks replaced. Is there a crack in the crystal at the bottom edge? Do you realize how small this watch is? Just asking...
> 
> Komandirskie: i would pass. Mix of parts as far as I can see. Calendar should be red. Crown is wrong. Lume is badly redone on the dial and hands. Looks like the watch is put together for a quick sale.


Thanks for the reply!

I figured the Komandirskie was a little too good to be true, especially looking at the hands.

With regard to the size of the Poljot, yes, I do know that it's ~31 mm. Lucky for me I have small wrists and don't feel like a more narrow watch would look too out of place (and I'm not super drawn to large watches as is). It looks like the crystal is cracked as you say but for me this is something I could look past.


----------



## Odessa200

markperson said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> 
> I figured the Komandirskie was a little too good to be true, especially looking at the hands.
> 
> With regard to the size of the Poljot, yes, I do know that it's ~31 mm. Lucky for me I have small wrists and don't feel like a more narrow watch would look too out of place (and I'm not super drawn to large watches as is). It looks like the crystal is cracked as you say but for me this is something I could look past.


My wrists are small as well. It will
Look like this.


----------



## Odessa200

Notaswiss said:


> the seller actually has one in a gilded case, but it's the same fake dial so... too bad, looked nice
> 
> What about that Luch? I actually got this one, it's another 2209, I hope it's genuine
> View attachment 15687484


looks good to me.


----------



## Avidfan

Avidfan said:


> I think there's a good chance that the 289 blue sub dial is the original configuration, I can't prove it though


Here we are, a Komandirskie 641289


----------



## markperson

Odessa200 said:


> My wrists are small as well. It will
> Look like this.
> View attachment 15687537


Looks nice. I think the smallest watches I have are a Seiko 5 and a Casio A500WE (which is about the same size but definitely not the same shape). The only other Soviet-era watch I own is an Elektronika 5 which is huge by comparison.


----------



## markperson

Odessa200 said:


> Poljot: looks nice. Crown looks replaced. Is there a crack in the crystal at the bottom edge? Do you realize how small this watch is? Just asking...
> 
> Komandirskie: i would pass. Mix of parts as far as I can see. Calendar should be red. Crown is wrong. Lume is badly redone on the dial and hands. Looks like the watch is put together for a quick sale.


Regarding the crown: how can you tell it is replaced? I see the shape on yours is a little different than the one I posted, is that a giveaway?


----------



## Notaswiss

There's a Raketa world time I am looking at. I think this one is from after the Soviet Union, but the case looks sketchy to me, it feels like they put together a watch. Am I right? Also thanks for the info on the blue dial world time I posted some days ago. It's in great condition and looks sweet.


----------



## Odessa200

markperson said:


> Regarding the crown: how can you tell it is replaced? I see the shape on yours is a little different than the one I posted, is that a giveaway?


compare to the catalog. This is a small watch and the crowns generally were small back then (even on the big Poljots). What I see on your watch looks a bit too big.


----------



## Odessa200

Notaswiss said:


> There's a Raketa world time I am looking at. I think this one is from after the Soviet Union, but the case looks sketchy to me, it feels like they put together a watch. Am I right? Also thanks for the info on the blue dial world time I posted some days ago. It's in great condition and looks sweet.
> 
> View attachment 15688232
> View attachment 15688233
> View attachment 15688234
> View attachment 15688235


Agree. I am not sure that the black bezel was used with gilded case. It normally belongs to a chromed case.


----------



## Notaswiss

Odessa200 said:


> Agree. I am not sure that the black bezel was used with gilded case. It normally belongs to a chromed case.


I think I found a listing where a similar watch was sold, but I am not sure if these guys are legit. I mean anyone can take photos of a watch on some "documents". Have you heard of them? Here is the listing - Russian 24-hour watch Raketa 2623.H World Time (Russian Version)


----------



## elsoldemayo

It's a legitimate combination in Soviet period watches anyway.


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> It's a legitimate combination in Soviet period watches anyway.
> 
> View attachment 15688828


true. Thanks for finding this combo in the catalog.


----------



## Notaswiss

elsoldemayo said:


> It's a legitimate combination in Soviet period watches anyway.
> 
> View attachment 15688828


Thanks! Seems it's legit after all.


----------



## markperson

Second question in this thread: opinions on this ZIM? I'm in love with the color of the dial, does this look legit?



















Also, as a newer user, I'm curious: how easy is it to find catalogs? I've seen some users post them and they've been very helpful.


----------



## Odessa200

markperson said:


> Second question in this thread: opinions on this ZIM? I'm in love with the color of the dial, does this look legit?
> 
> View attachment 15691416
> 
> 
> View attachment 15691418
> 
> 
> Also, as a newer user, I'm curious: how easy is it to find catalogs? I've seen some users post them and they've been very helpful.


Bad news is that Zim watches exceptionally badly cataloged. But this dial appears in the catalog but with a different case and different hamds. So I am skeptical this is an authentic setup. But given these watches are not in big demand (not that expensive) if you like the look... you can consider getting it. Parts are right, late Zim movement, etc. Given bad situation with Zim catalogs, it is possible that this style was also made....

Here are all the catalogs: Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com

Use google translate if you cannot read russian


----------



## Ligavesh

Were there NVCh-30 with this type of hands, or were these borrowed from later Amphibias?










The color of the lume matches...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Were there NVCh-30 with this type of hands, or were these borrowed from later Amphibias?
> 
> View attachment 15693373
> 
> 
> The color of the lume matches...


I would say 'maybe' but lets see what experts say  These are 2nd generation hands on 1st generation watch. Maybe....


----------



## 979greenwich

Something similar here:


https://vintagewatchinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/nvch-30-gen-1-late-hands.jpg


Personally i wouldn't touch a Nvch-30 without the can and papers, but that's just me.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> Were there NVCh-30 with this type of hands, or were these borrowed from later Amphibias?
> 
> The color of the lume matches...


I can't say why but this one is giving me a bad vibe for some reason, maybe because the hands metallic surface looks a bit too good.

Or maybe because high dollar watches that come from the former USSR are those which people will be most likely to fix and sale even if the fix isn't ideal.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> I can't say why but this one is giving me a bad vibe for some reason, maybe because the hands metallic surface looks a bit too good.
> 
> Or maybe because high dollar watches that come from the former USSR are those which people will be most likely to fix and sale even if the fix isn't ideal.


My rationale for purchasing goes like this: if the price is super cheap (for a watch like this lets say under 100$) I would buy it. But if the price is a 'market' price then I want to be fully happy with my purchase. I would rather pay extra 100$ for the 'happiness' part than get something I will be second guessing.... If this watch would come with papers in NOS condition I would get it. Otherwise I would pass.


----------



## MattBrace

Ligavesh said:


> Were there NVCh-30 with this type of hands, or were these borrowed from later Amphibias?
> 
> View attachment 15693373
> 
> 
> The color of the lume matches...


It's most likely the Gen 2 hands were fitted at a service interval, probably around 86'. No recorded NOS Gen 1 examples exist with this hand set from new.

Cheers...


----------



## dutchassasin

My thoughts exactly, the metallic red seconds hand is found on some gen2s


----------



## rswafford

Hi all, I am new to the forum but just picked up a few vintage russian watches. Wondering if someone could tell me if this is a legit Komandirskie or what's incorrect on it... Either way I like it a lot and it seems to be in good shape.









It's not an original band of course, but is the face and housing correct? The cover over the face appears to be a bubble of clear acrylic or other plastic.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> My rationale for purchasing goes like this: if the price is super cheap (for a watch like this lets say under 100$) I would buy it. But if the price is a 'market' price then I want to be fully happy with my purchase. I would rather pay extra 100$ for the 'happiness' part than get something I will be second guessing.... If this watch would come with papers in NOS condition I would get it. Otherwise I would pass.


I agree, but i was talking about the plethora of "_Gagarin Shturmankskie_"s and "_Okean_"s (you know which ones i'm talking about) on the market. They have a financial incentive to beautify and or remake a lot parts to substantially up the value. Now leaving aside Ivan's toolshed adventures, I've seen a few where it was a definitely a factory made NCVH-30 case but with mismatched internals and not a 2209 barrel case that he had a pass with his angle grinder.

Then again i'm not the biggest expert when it comes to NCVH's so i can't say much on the matter beside my two cents.


----------



## Avidfan

rswafford said:


> Hi all, I am new to the forum but just picked up a few vintage russian watches. Wondering if someone could tell me if this is a legit Komandirskie or what's incorrect on it... Either way I like it a lot and it seems to be in good shape.
> View attachment 15697209
> 
> 
> It's not an original band of course, but is the face and housing correct? The cover over the face appears to be a bubble of clear acrylic or other plastic.


Welcome to the forum!

Here's an image of your watch from Dashiell's site...










As you can see your watch has incorrect hour and minute hands which are from the modern Partner range, otherwise it looks ok, the movement should be a 18 jewel 2234 with hacking btw...

Hope this helps a little...


----------



## rswafford

Avidfan said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Here's an image of your watch from Dashiell's site...
> 
> View attachment 15697291
> 
> 
> As you can see your watch has incorrect hour and minute hands which are from the modern Partner range, otherwise it looks ok, the movement should be a 18 jewel 2234 with hacking btw...
> 
> Hope this helps a little...


Thank you! That does look like I have a solid example. Much appreciated for the tip on Dashiell's site too, I'll have to bookmark and read through it one evening. I can deal with updated hands... Great to see that the rest appears original!


----------



## Ligavesh

Seconds hand broken/too short or legit? Couldn't find this version at MrOatman's.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> View attachment 15697591
> 
> 
> Seconds hand broken/too short or legit? Couldn't find this version at MrOatman's.


Catalog 1st, web sites later!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 15697826
> 
> 
> Catalog 1st, web sites later!


I still haven't figures out how to find the catalogs tbh, I tried once and got lost in a sea of links to non-existing pages... Anyway, I'm little confused here: the seconds hand seems to be the right length, but the minutes hand seems longer? It touches the indices, whereas in the catalog it doesn't? Minutes hand is not original?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I still haven't figures out how to find the catalogs tbh, I tried once and got lost in a sea of links to non-existing pages... Anyway, I'm little confused here: the seconds hand seems to be the right length, but the minutes hand seems longer? It touches the indices, whereas in the catalog it doesn't? Minutes hand is not original?


Catalogs : Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com

As far as hands: It is quite rare that the minute hand is longer than the seconds hand... so I would say the hand in your watch is wrong.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Catalogs : Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com
> 
> As far as hands: It is quite rare that the minute hand is longer than the seconds hand... so I would say the hand in your watch is wrong.


thanks for the link

as for the hands - funnily enough I searched on ebay and found the same model at different sellers -they ALL have the minute hand longer than the second hand, unlike the catalog - maybe just change in the production? I dunno....


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> thanks for the link
> 
> as for the hands - funnily enough I searched on ebay and found the same model at different sellers -they ALL have the minute hand longer than the second hand, unlike the catalog - maybe just change in the production? I dunno....
> 
> View attachment 15697983
> 
> 
> View attachment 15697984


Then catalog is wrong


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Then catalog is wrong


Change in design during the production?


----------



## Kamburov

Odessa200 said:


> Then catalog is wrong


It's not that the seconds hand is shorter, rather the minute hand gets longer in the 1989 catalogue compared to the mid 80s catalogues. The seconds hand is the same. Which maybe means the above watches are late 80s examples. I have two of this model, both with the longer minute hand. Haven't seen the shorter minute hand on this particular model, but I also have the other model from the 85 cataog (with the roman numbers) and it is indeed with the shorter minute hand.
Not to mention we can make a full catalog with strange photos from soviet catalogs  The party boss promised the petiletka target reached four years early. Some stupid hands won't get in the way of the mighty communist progress.


----------



## mariomart

Hello my friends 

Today I purchased an unusual "thing", I am not sure if it is a genuine factory issue, or perhaps a bored factory worker messing around, or a very good fake pad printer.

I purchased it because it was so much an oddity that I took the chance, knowing fully well that it may be a fake.

It's a Vostok Komandirskie Buran Horse Head Amphibia (Komphibiburquestrian?) !!!

What I noticed is that there are no raised indices and no frame around the date. The printing quality looks great, with everything matching and correct colours, so it appears to match factory quality. The hands look Soviet era but the lume does not match the dial lume. I am waiting on some answers from the seller before it's sent, but the seller has many great authentic pieces listed and some rarities so that's always a good sign.

My gut feeling is leaning more towards a factory test by a worker, however a google image search has thrown up something similar owned by @willjackson , but missing the "Komandirskie" print (unfortunately the WUS site has tossed the image from the post and only a very pixelated thumbnail is available).


----------



## willjackson

mariomart said:


> Hello my friends
> 
> Today I purchased an unusual "thing", I am not sure if it is a genuine factory issue, or perhaps a bored factory worker messing around, or a very good fake pad printer.
> 
> I purchased it because it was so much an oddity that I took the chance, knowing fully well that it may be a fake.
> 
> It's a Vostok Komandirskie Buran Horse Head Amphibia (Komphibiburquestrian?) !!!
> 
> What I noticed is that there are no raised indices and no frame around the date. The printing quality looks great, with everything matching and correct colours, so it appears to match factory quality. The hands look Soviet era but the lume does not match the dial lume. I am waiting on some answers from the seller before it's sent, but the seller has many great authentic pieces listed and some rarities so that's always a good sign.
> 
> My gut feeling is leaning more towards a factory test by a worker, however a google image search has thrown up something similar owned by @willjackson , but missing the "Komandirskie" print (unfortunately the WUS site has tossed the image from the post and only a very pixelated thumbnail is available).
> 
> View attachment 15698303
> 
> 
> View attachment 15698304
> 
> 
> View attachment 15698305


Here's a photo of mine next to a photo in Levenberg's book of his.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

willjackson said:


> Here's a photo of mine next to a photo in Levenberg's book of his.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thanks @willjackson

As that book was published in 1995, and the indices are painted and not raised and the same lume/paint combination then I can only assume that it's a genuine factory dial, but with the addition of the Komandirskie branding.

Curiouser and Curiouser


----------



## dutchassasin

mariomart said:


> Hello my friends
> 
> Today I purchased an unusual "thing", I am not sure if it is a genuine factory issue, or perhaps a bored factory worker messing around, or a very good fake pad printer.
> 
> I purchased it because it was so much an oddity that I took the chance, knowing fully well that it may be a fake.
> 
> It's a Vostok Komandirskie Buran Horse Head Amphibia (Komphibiburquestrian?) !!!


Ha you beat me to it, i was debating to buy it as it does look like double stamped. Quite a nice find and it goes to a good home!


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> Ha you beat me to it, i was debating to buy it as it does look like double stamped. Quite a nice find and it goes to a good home!


Thank you.

The Komphibiburquestrian is MINE, ALL MINE, HAHAHAHA ....... (time for my medicine and a little lay down)


----------



## Vumbo

Is it me or isn't this crown original?


----------



## willjackson

mariomart said:


> Thank you.
> 
> The Komphibiburquestrian is MINE, ALL MINE, HAHAHAHA ....... (time for my medicine and a little lay down)


If that seller is from Spain, I have purchased from him many times and is quite reputable. I just picked up a Brandenburg Gate Vostok from him myself!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Vumbo said:


> Is it me or isn't this crown original?
> View attachment 15698639


i think it is original


----------



## trapper777

Hello everyone!

I'm looking to dip my toe into russian watches with a kopernik. I found this one, which from what I've seen has the right crown/case/movement. However it's less than 100$ and so beautiful I'm a little suspicious. Is this legit?


----------



## Vumbo

Odessa200 said:


> i think it is original


I dunno it looks different to many others, look at this pic still looks off to me ?


----------



## Vumbo

trapper777 said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I'm looking to dip my toe into russian watches with a kopernik. I found this one, which from what I've seen has the right crown/case/movement. However it's less than 100$ and so beautiful I'm a little suspicious. Is this legit?
> 
> View attachment 15699535
> View attachment 15699537
> View attachment 15699538
> View attachment 15699539


I've seen this for sale as well.
The second hand isn't original.
The original one is supposed to be longer.

I skipped on it because I suspect the case, crystal and crow look to good to be authentic. However those could be original if the watch has never been worn.

The dial has cccp on it which means it's from soviet era, which I suppose you'd be looking for.


----------



## trapper777

Vumbo said:


> I've seen this for sale as well.
> The second hand isn't original.
> The original one is supposed to be longer.
> 
> I skipped on it because I suspect the case, crystal and crow look to good to be authentic. However those could be original if the watch has never been worn.
> 
> The dial has cccp on it which means it's from soviet era, which I suppose you'd be looking for.


Thank you, I'll hold off for now then!


----------



## elsoldemayo

The scans/pictures of the mid-80's Raketa catalogs are poor resoultion. Below is a decent picture from the early 90's so yes, the second hand is wrong.


----------



## trapper777

Ok, another question, this one out of curiosity: I saw that this watch almost immediately sold on eBay. Is the red moon an authentic design, and if so how rare is it?


----------



## 979greenwich

Someone probably painted it red for whatever reason.
But there is something interesting in the catalogue picture above.
The black Copernic in the catalogue has a flat crown, different from a chrome model.
All the genuine Copernics I've seen so far had a crown like the one above with the red hand.


----------



## Odessa200

trapper777 said:


> Ok, another question, this one out of curiosity: I saw that this watch almost immediately sold on eBay. Is the red moon an authentic design, and if so how rare is it?
> View attachment 15699910


is it actually red or just came out like this on the photo?


----------



## 979greenwich

Unusual Russian Raketa “Copernicus” Wrist Watch – Working Order | eBay


In good condition and in good working order. Matched to a new black leather strap.



www.ebay.co.uk


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Hi All - looking for some input on ~1960 Mayak/Маяк watches, specifically the black dial variant with the white inner dial ring. The catalog from 1960 appears to have lumed numbers on the 12,3,6,9, but I've seen a few dial variants that don't have this and instead have "clean" numbers with an extra "П43" stamp on the dial.

Does anyone know if this is an earlier or later variant, or if this is a Frankenstein dial? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Odessa200

WildcatWatchCollector said:


> Hi All - looking for some input on ~1960 Mayak/Маяк watches, specifically the black dial variant with the white inner dial ring. The catalog from 1960 appears to have lumed numbers on the 12,3,6,9, but I've seen a few dial variants that don't have this and instead have "clean" numbers with an extra "П43" stamp on the dial.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is an earlier or later variant, or if this is a Frankenstein dial? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 15702429
> View attachment 15702431
> View attachment 15702430


dials with the PChZ stamp are also legit. With the stamp would be earlier variants imho


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Thanks Odessa! Do you ever see "new" dials in watches of this era, or are the franken parts mainly internal? (I know some sellers swap dials/hands/cases, but thinking of actually new dials). I've seen some Start watches of this era sporting what looks to me like new dials, but I could be wrong! Learning more and more everyday about what to watch out for.


----------



## Odessa200

WildcatWatchCollector said:


> Thanks Odessa! Do you ever see "new" dials in watches of this era, or are the franken parts mainly internal? (I know some sellers swap dials/hands/cases, but thinking of actually new dials). I've seen some Start watches of this era sporting what looks to me like new dials, but I could be wrong! Learning more and more everyday about what to watch out for.
> View attachment 15703336


this start is a complete fake. 
fake dials are printed for watches in demand: start, spitnik, shturmanskie, etc.
the Mayak watches are not in big demand and there are no big number of fakes....but some are. Here is one (the seller honestly listed as dial restored).


----------



## Straight_time

WildcatWatchCollector said:


> Hi All - looking for some input on ~1960 Mayak/Маяк watches, specifically the black dial variant with the white inner dial ring. The catalog from 1960 appears to have lumed numbers on the 12,3,6,9, but I've seen a few dial variants that don't have this and instead have "clean" numbers with an extra "П43" stamp on the dial.
> 
> Does anyone know if this is an earlier or later variant, or if this is a Frankenstein dial? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 15702429
> View attachment 15702431
> View attachment 15702430


They aren't earlier or later variants, they are different watches.

The one with partially lumed dial is a MАЯК 40ЧН / model ЧН-40К made by 1MChZ -thus of course lacking the Petrodvorets logo (page 116 of the 1960 catalog).

The unlumed one is a МАЯК 221ЧН / model ЧН-1123К made by PChZ (page 120).
IMHO the case is wrong, most likely taken from a PChZ Pobeda (notice the shape of the lugs); the correct one should have the faceted bezel like the watch with the restored dial seen in the post above here.


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Thanks for the info all - super helpful!


----------



## Odessa200

Straight_time said:


> They aren't earlier or later variants, they are different watches.
> 
> The one with partially lumed dial is a MАЯК 40ЧН / model ЧН-40К made by 1MChZ -thus of course lacking the Petrodvorets logo (page 116 of the 1960 catalog).
> 
> The unlumed one is a МАЯК 221ЧН / model ЧН-1123К made by PChZ (page 120).
> IMHO the case is wrong, most likely taken from a PChZ Pobeda (notice the shape of the lugs); the correct one should have the faceted bezel like the watch with the restored dial seen in the post above here.


True. I never remember that Mayak was done also by 1MChZ. To me Mayak is PChZ only .


----------



## Adrunkrussian

Hey guys, Curious if this second watch I've gotten is a franken or not..The luminous hands have stopped glowing, so I am at least sort of sure its at the least a recase.Thanks!


----------



## cherrypie

What do you think about this Raketa? Is this an official dial? Thank you!


----------



## Odessa200

Adrunkrussian said:


> Hey guys, Curious if this second watch I've gotten is a franken or not..The luminous hands have stopped glowing, so I am at least sort of sure its at the least a recase.Thanks!
> View attachment 15704126
> View attachment 15704127


Given no one responded.... I know nothing about these. Is it a 24h watch? Movement image?


----------



## Odessa200

cherrypie said:


> What do you think about this Raketa? Is this an official dial? Thank you!


The dial and hands looks Ok to me but all the catalog versions of this dial design are shown in a different body. I would say this is franken. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## Kamburov

cherrypie said:


> What do you think about this Raketa? Is this an official dial? Thank you!


The combination is possible, but I've never seen this red 12 dial before. It looks legit, which makes it even more puzzling. Have both official versions (50s and 90s), this is a new one. Don't think it's in any catalog.


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Hi Guys! Question on a Pobeda with a Petrodvorets dial but the movement has the Raketa stamp. If I understand correctly the Raketa stamp changed in 1962, but shouldn't this watch have the same stamp on the dial and movement? All examples I've seen of this dial variant have the same "*ПЧЗ*" marking on the movement, but not sure if this is a later variant. Also curious if the crown is correct as other examples I have seen have the shorter, more "rounded" crown.

Thank you in advance!


----------



## cherrypie

Odessa200 said:


> Given no one responded.... I know nothing about these. Is it a 24h watch? Movement image?


----------



## cherrypie

Odessa200 said:


> The dial and hands looks Ok to me but all the catalog versions of this dial design are shown in a different body. I would say this is franken. Lets see what other folks say.


Thank you for the reply! I did not find this kind of dial in any catalogue. The numbers seem different from the usual models...


----------



## trapper777

Adrunkrussian said:


> Hey guys, Curious if this second watch I've gotten is a franken or not..The luminous hands have stopped glowing, so I am at least sort of sure its at the least a recase.Thanks!


On that note, are there literally any legit watches with this design? I think it's beautiful, and I know there were several russian 24hr watches, but I haven't found anything about whether there's a real version of this particular dial, what years it was produced, etc. I'm starting to get the feeling they're somehow all frankens.


----------



## cherrypie

Odessa200 said:


> The dial and hands looks Ok to me but all the catalog versions of this dial design are shown in a different body. I would say this is franken. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## Odessa200

i would say it is franken. Case is wrong and the is the old movement but I believe these dials were done towards the collapse of the ussr. Just my opinion obviously


----------



## Odessa200

WildcatWatchCollector said:


> Hi Guys! Question on a Pobeda with a Petrodvorets dial but the movement has the Raketa stamp. If I understand correctly the Raketa stamp changed in 1962, but shouldn't this watch have the same stamp on the dial and movement? All examples I've seen of this dial variant have the same "*ПЧЗ*" marking on the movement, but not sure if this is a later variant. Also curious if the crown is correct as other examples I have seen have the shorter, more "rounded" crown.
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> View attachment 15706297
> View attachment 15706295


I would suspect the same: movement is replaced.
Crown is wrong


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Does anyone know if the commemorative Soyuz dial is authentic to the Raketa Puck/UFO case? I love the dial but see it in many different case formats with small variations. I'd also love to learn more about the history of the Soyuz dials, should anyone know. Thanks!


----------



## Kamburov

Vin Ordinaire said:


> Does anyone know if the commemorative Soyuz dial is authentic to the Raketa Puck/UFO case? I love the dial but see it in many different case formats with small variations. I'd also love to learn more about the history of the Soyuz dials, should anyone know. Thanks!
> View attachment 15710651


This dial should be in a 843 case (model 843XXX).


----------



## cherrypie

What arbout this Raketa 2209? Legit or not?


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Double


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Kamburov said:


> This dial should be in a 843 case (model 843XXX).
> View attachment 15711095


Thank you for sharing your expertise! Some follow up questions to take advantage of your knowledge: were dials ever shared among different case shapes by the factory? And how does one determine the authenticity of pieces that don't appear in the catalogs?

I was browsing the archives of Raketa catalogs for puck models, and came across far fewer than I expected. I've seen many more options out in the wilds of ebay. Obviously, many of those are franken. But other options that have been considered authentic like the red 1980 commemorative Olympic dial weren't included. Nor were really any gold plated models. And I've always assumed that franken watch makers don't gold plate themselves due to cost.

What accounts for the discrepancy? Would I find the Olympic dial or gold plated cases in catalogs that are missing from the collection? Or are the catalogs themselves not exhaustive and don't include every variant produced?


----------



## Odessa200

Vin Ordinaire said:


> Thank you for sharing your expertise! Some follow up questions to take advantage of your knowledge: were dials ever shared among different case shapes by the factory? And how does one determine the authenticity of pieces that don't appear in the catalogs?
> 
> I was browsing the archives of Raketa catalogs for puck models, and came across far fewer than I expected. I've seen many more options out in the wilds of ebay. Obviously, many of those are franken. But other options that have been considered authentic like the red 1980 commemorative Olympic dial weren't included. Nor were really any gold plated models. And I've always assumed that franken watch makers don't gold plate themselves due to cost.
> 
> What accounts for the discrepancy? Would I find the Olympic dial or gold plated cases in catalogs that are missing from the collection? Or are the catalogs themselves not exhaustive and don't include every variant produced?


True, not every watch is in catalogs but then experience comes in. People who spent years looking at watches know what real and what not. When you just starting it is important to ask for 2nd opinion .


----------



## Odessa200

cherrypie said:


> What arbout this Raketa 2209? Legit or not?


Crown replaced. Case looks re-gilded. Seconds hand should be red. The rest is right.


----------



## Kamburov

Vin Ordinaire said:


> Thank you for sharing your expertise! Some follow up questions to take advantage of your knowledge: were dials ever shared among different case shapes by the factory? And how does one determine the authenticity of pieces that don't appear in the catalogs?
> 
> I was browsing the archives of Raketa catalogs for puck models, and came across far fewer than I expected. I've seen many more options out in the wilds of ebay. Obviously, many of those are franken. But other options that have been considered authentic like the red 1980 commemorative Olympic dial weren't included. Nor were really any gold plated models. And I've always assumed that franken watch makers don't gold plate themselves due to cost.
> 
> What accounts for the discrepancy? Would I find the Olympic dial or gold plated cases in catalogs that are missing from the collection? Or are the catalogs themselves not exhaustive and don't include every variant produced?


New catalog scans appear every year and info is always updated. I've stumbled upon brochures sold in various sites and later scans appear on collectors' sites. The other way to confirm authenticity for models not seen in catalog is colectors owning NOS examples with authentic papers. That's why the best way to check authenticity if missing in the catalogs, is to ask here. Chance is members with experience will know something about it. Russian watch production is a wild jungle but here you can get some sense of order in the chaos. Members are very friendly, supportive and knowledgeable.
As to the red olympic raketa, I think I might have spotted it somewhere on paper, but I'm not sure. Many olympic models were in brochures, but probably not all. So reputable collectors might be an alternative source of information.
Unicorns still appear every now and then, and the gray area still exists, but most models can be tracked.
Franken gold-plated watches are almost non existent. Many frankens have been originally in gold-plated cases that were melted for gold content, and the watches were cased in chrome plated cases. It almost never happens the other way arround.


----------



## cherrypie

Odessa200 said:


> Crown replaced. Case looks re-gilded. Seconds hand should be red. The rest is right.
> View attachment 15711298


Wow! Thank you, sir!


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Kamburov said:


> New catalog scans appear every year and info is always updated. I've stumbled upon brochures sold in various sites and later scans appear on collectors' sites. The other way to confirm authenticity for models not seen in catalog is colectors owning NOS examples with authentic papers. That's why the best way to check authenticity if missing in the catalogs, is to ask here. Chance is members with experience will know something about it. Russian watch production is a wild jungle but here you can get some sense of order in the chaos. Members are very friendly, supportive and knowledgeable.
> As to the red olympic raketa, I think I might have spotted it somewhere on paper, but I'm not sure. Many olympic models were in brochures, but probably not all. So reputable collectors might be an alternative source of information.
> Unicorns still appear every now and then, and the gray area still exists, but most models can be tracked.
> Franken gold-plated watches are almost non existent. Many frankens have been originally in gold-plated cases that were melted for gold content, and the watches were cased in chrome plated cases. It almost never happens the other way arround.


Thank you for the education. I appreciate it!


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Odessa200 said:


> True, not every watch is in catalogs but then experience comes in. People who spent years looking at watches know what real and what not. When you just starting it is important to ask for 2nd opinion .


That's why I'm here. Thanks for your help and all your other posts I've learned from.


----------



## trapper777

Ok, so I chaotically purchased this pobeda off of ebay late at night for luckily very little money. How badly did I screw up?


----------



## Odessa200

trapper777 said:


> Ok, so I chaotically purchased this pobeda off of ebay late at night for luckily very little money. How badly did I screw up?
> View attachment 15713911
> View attachment 15713913
> 
> View attachment 15713914


medium . Basically the exterior is from an early Zim Pobeda but the movement is a bit later Pobeda by PChZ (plus one screw is missing). So you got 2 watches for the price of one.


----------



## trapper777

Odessa200 said:


> medium . Basically the exterior is from an early Zim Pobeda but the movement is a bit later Pobeda by PChZ (plus one screw is missing). So you got 2 watches for the price of one.


You know, considering how little I payed for this I am ok with that!

Just to learn, what details showed you the case and movement are a mismatch? This image from a 1957 catalog is the only thing I really looked at


----------



## Odessa200

trapper777 said:


> You know, considering how little I payed for this I am ok with that!
> 
> Just to learn, what details showed you the case and movement are a mismatch? This image from a 1957 catalog is the only thing I really looked at
> 
> View attachment 15714091


i know this model and I know that it was only produced by Zim. You you check other lots on ebay you will see almost all of these Pobedas are Zim.


----------



## Ligavesh

What about this Gagarin:



















?


----------



## Kaiser4

Hi! 
I'm new here although I've been reading you for some time. I have some russian watches (modern) and I would like to add a vintage watch that has "something special". I have fallen in love with this Poljot but I don't know if it's legit or franken. I wish it's not a total fake as the movement seems to be ok to my knowledge but I'm far from being an expert. I haven't find this dial in any catalog so maybe it can be a redial...Your opinion will help me a lot. Thanks!!


----------



## Odessa200

Kaiser4 said:


> Hi!
> I'm new here although I've been reading you for some time. I have some russian watches (modern) and I would like to add a vintage watch that has "something special". I have fallen in love with this Poljot but I don't know if it's legit or franken. I wish it's not a total fake as the movement seems to be ok to my knowledge but I'm far from being an expert. I haven't find this dial in any catalog so maybe it can be a redial...Your opinion will help me a lot. Thanks!!
> 
> View attachment 15716382
> View attachment 15716383


I do not see anything wrong with it! Good find.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What about this Gagarin:
> 
> View attachment 15715419
> 
> 
> View attachment 15715410
> 
> 
> ?


looks right


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

What is your impression of this Raketa offering? I'd also love to hear your thoughts on fair market value, and any insights you may have into the history of the model. Thank you!


----------



## Kaiser4

Odessa200 said:


> I do not see anything wrong with it! Good find.
> View attachment 15717763


Thank you very much!! Could you please share with me the catalog, a link to it or at leats the year it's supposed to be?


----------



## Ligavesh

Vin Ordinaire said:


> What is your impression of this Raketa offering? I'd also love to hear your thoughts on fair market value, and any insights you may have into the history of the model. Thank you!
> View attachment 15718124
> View attachment 15718125
> 
> View attachment 15718123


It's a good example, but I've seen better ones, too... I'd say about 40-60 USD, maybe as low as 30 if you can haggle very well.


----------



## Odessa200

Kaiser4 said:


> Thank you very much!! Could you please share with me the catalog, a link to it or at leats the year it's supposed to be?


catalog is from 1983. You can see it in my screenshot. Links to the catalogs were posted so many times. Just check other topics on this forum! Maybe moderators can make it more prominent


----------



## Kaiser4

Odessa200 said:


> catalog is from 1983. You can see it in my screenshot. Links to the catalogs were posted so many times. Just check other topics on this forum! Maybe moderators can make it more prominent


I saw it in the screenshot but I wasn't sure if it was part of the URL or the catalog.
I looked for the catalogs and maybe I was not in the correct thread. 
Many thanks for your time. I'm really new but people like you and threads like this make this hobby more beatiful. I will share photos when it arrives


----------



## bobby54

Hello Kamarades,
I d like another 3133, after poljot civil and sturmanskie in grey.
Could you make me some advices with this one ? Franken a little, a lot  or not ?At which price is it a good deal (seller price is about 330 euros) ?
Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Kaiser4 said:


> I saw it in the screenshot but I wasn't sure if it was part of the URL or the catalog.
> I looked for the catalogs and maybe I was not in the correct thread.
> Many thanks for your time. I'm really new but people like you and threads like this make this hobby more beatiful. I will share photos when it arrives


take a look here








Vostok Catalogues


Hi guys doing a bit of research for some precission vostoks I got I discovered that most of the links doesnt work any more, thanks google plus, so any one kind enough tu put a working link for those catalogues in where this models are shown?




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## PiotrS

*bobby54*
Franken
Hands (IMO China), bezel, dial (...china?), 1994-1998,
1986-1987 movement.
330 euro  it's cheap for a good watch but not for this one.
Look for one like this.


















I'm not 100% sure but it looks good


----------



## bobby54

PiotrS said:


> *bobby54*
> Franken
> Hands (IMO China), bezel, dial (...china?), 1994-1998,
> 1986-1987 movement.
> 330 euro  it's cheap for a good watch but not for this one.
> Look for one like this.
> View attachment 15720364
> 
> 
> View attachment 15720369
> 
> 
> I'm not 100% sure but it looks good


Thanks #PiotrS !!!
I m quite unexperimneted...
I've seen another one in green/blue.grey
What do you think about it, quite the same amount 300 euros.
Very good condition apparently, suspect ? and a movement with SU quite strange no ?

Thanks for your opinion


----------



## PiotrS

Franken
This dial is china, were copy like this dial 1996








Look luma end dot luma.
and this dial 2000









and this dial 1997










You must looh this watch like this my. (ofkurse with bezel)









llook this watch








Poljot 31659 23-Jewel Manual Winding Caliber for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot 31659 23-Jewel Manual Winding Caliber at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





so maybe this watch (in ebay) luma is new...


----------



## Ligavesh

Franken (new print) dial or not:




























Supposedly these indices shouldn't be thicker than the others as they here are...


----------



## Straight_time

The usual fake dial with the complementary set of fake hands, in the rather rare 1st generation case.


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm downloading the catalogs right now, but in the meantime maybe someone knows something about this weird Raketa:

















?

The movement seems tempered with, but otherwise?... Never seen something like this before, not in Mr Oatman's collection either.


----------



## Ligavesh

Another question - does anyone know how to remove these end links:


























I ordered the end links/adapters for a 960xxx from meranom, they fit sizewise, just don't really know how to remove these and install the new ones.


----------



## RJ_Matt

Hi everyone,
I just picked this Boctok up and I'd love to learn a little more about it. It has a screw down crown and is a hand winding watch. Which model is it and what movement do these come with? When were these watches made? Is the back plate from some other watch? It looks oddly different compared to the case, or has it just become discoloured? How much of this is frankened? Thank you


----------



## mariomart

RJ_Matt said:


> Hi everyone,
> I just picked this Boctok up and I'd love to learn a little more about it. It has a screw down crown and is a hand winding watch. Which model is it and what movement do these come with? When were these watches made? Is the back plate from some other watch? It looks oddly different compared to the case, or has it just become discoloured? How much of this is frankened? Thank you


Hello and Welcome to the F10 Soviet/Russian forum 

Model 059380 with 2409A movement from late 80's through to 90's.

Here is scan of 1993 catalog.


----------



## RJ_Matt

mariomart said:


> Hello and Welcome to the F10 Soviet/Russian forum
> 
> Model 059380 with 2409A movement from late 80's through to 90's.


Your post brought a smile to my face! An original catalogue post from 1993 right down to the specific model! Thanks very much and I'm happy I found this forum! I've picked up quite a few old/vintage watches and I've become obsessed with them.


----------



## Ligavesh

Ligavesh said:


> I'm downloading the catalogs right now, but in the meantime maybe someone knows something about this weird Raketa:
> 
> View attachment 15726097
> 
> 
> View attachment 15726099
> ?
> 
> The movement seems tempered with, but otherwise?... Never seen something like this before, not in Mr Oatman's collection either.


I really can't find anything about this watch, I've been going through all the Raketa catalogs...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I'm downloading the catalogs right now, but in the meantime maybe someone knows something about this weird Raketa:
> 
> View attachment 15726097
> 
> 
> View attachment 15726099
> ?
> 
> The movement seems tempered with, but otherwise?... Never seen something like this before, not in Mr Oatman's collection either.


This is a collection of parts. Movement is not perfect, case, crown, etc. it used to be Raketa 'for school students' at one time but some vandal got his hands on it.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Another question - does anyone know how to remove these end links:
> 
> View attachment 15726215
> 
> View attachment 15726216
> 
> View attachment 15726217
> 
> 
> I ordered the end links/adapters for a 960xxx from meranom, they fit sizewise, just don't really know how to remove these and install the new ones.
> 
> View attachment 15726218


there is a pin that is pressured in. You need to press it out.


----------



## PiotrS

Strela 
Does it still matter? 
Big number is it oryginal i fat . end 3 has a smaller belly , end D (Д) .


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> there is a pin that is pressured in. You need to press it out.


Maybe I sound dumb, but what would be the best tool for the job?


----------



## Ligavesh

PiotrS said:


> Strela
> Does it still matter?
> Big number is it oryginal i fat . end 3 has a smaller belly , end D (Д) .
> View attachment 15726967
> 
> View attachment 15726972


Doesn't hurt to name all signs of forgery


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Maybe I sound dumb, but what would be the best tool for the job?


something like this
Remover Remove Repair Tool Kit for Watchmakers with 4 Extra Pins | eBay
Ot this








Watch Band Strap Link Pin Remover Repair Tool Kit for Watchmakers With 3 Pins US | eBay


Watch band remover tool, you can resize the extra watch band. Turn the side wheel to move the needle and push out the pin. Adjust the needle into the band's pin. Easy to use: Size your watch band yourself with this small, simple tool effectively without wiggling.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> something like this
> Remover Remove Repair Tool Kit for Watchmakers with 4 Extra Pins | eBay
> Ot this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Band Strap Link Pin Remover Repair Tool Kit for Watchmakers With 3 Pins US | eBay
> 
> 
> Watch band remover tool, you can resize the extra watch band. Turn the side wheel to move the needle and push out the pin. Adjust the needle into the band's pin. Easy to use: Size your watch band yourself with this small, simple tool effectively without wiggling.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Oh that would do? I thought I need something really special... I have those, I just thought this can't push that out surely...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Oh that would do? I thought I need something really special... I have those, I just thought this can't push that out surely...


depends how fused/rusted that old pin is.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> depends how fused/rusted that old pin is.


So it might come to brute force...


----------



## Ligavesh

Huh, actually came out easier than I expected; the only "victim" is the bended pin:










That's all it took from tools.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Huh, actually came out easier than I expected; the only "victim" is the bended pin:
> 
> View attachment 15728440
> 
> 
> That's all it took from tools.


well done!


----------



## 979greenwich

Nerzh - Chinesium 1 : 0


----------



## Alm14286

Hi guys, this is my first post so please forgive me if I stuff it up! I'm looking to buy my first vintage Russian mechanical watches and love the Raketa Big Zero and the Luch 2209. I have found the following for sale and would love your insight as to whether they are Franken or genuine?
I was concerned with the markings on the Raketa as I have not seen any other movement with the 2609HA engraving on the gear...any info or feedback would be amazing !


----------



## Odessa200

Alm14286 said:


> Hi guys, this is my first post so please forgive me if I stuff it up! I'm looking to buy my first vintage Russian mechanical watches and love the Raketa Big Zero and the Luch 2209. I have found the following for sale and would love your insight as to whether they are Franken or genuine?
> I was concerned with the markings on the Raketa as I have not seen any other movement with the 2609HA engraving on the gear...any info or feedback would be amazing !
> View attachment 15728976
> View attachment 15728979
> View attachment 15728981
> View attachment 15728984


Welcome comrade!

luch is a complete fake: fake dial, crown and a wrong movement for this dial type. This is an early dial design but a late movement.

raketa is much better. Markings on the ratchet wheel is Ok: late USSR. But the balance is a replacement from a Russian watch.

lets see what others say.


----------



## palletwheel

I posted this on the Komandirskie thread, but it seems of late no one is showing any so I'll post here. This is supposed to be an NOS 341248. It comes with box and passport which matches the caseback. But bezel and seconds hand are different from the catalog, so double checking here. Thanks!


----------



## 979greenwich

Knowing Vostok, I suppose it's possible that the watch left the factory with that configuration, especially in 1990, when nobody bothered with such things. BUT. If i was paying top dollar for NOS, I'd want it to be a spitting catalogue image.


----------



## Alm14286

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome comrade!
> 
> luch is a complete fake: fake dial, crown and a wrong movement for this dial type. This is an early dial design but a late movement.
> 
> raketa is much better. Markings on the ratchet wheel is Ok: late USSR. But the balance is a replacement from a Russian watch.
> 
> lets see what others say.


Thanks so much 👍👍


----------



## Straight_time

palletwheel said:


> I posted this on the Komandirskie thread, but it seems of late no one is showing any so I'll post here. This is supposed to be an NOS 341248. It comes with box and passport which matches the caseback. But bezel and seconds hand are different from the catalog, so double checking here. Thanks!


I wouldn't worry about that... if you check the Tento catalog from 1990 (just as official as the other one you posted), you'll see that your watch is fitted with yet another style; so as long as yours is a Komandirskie bezel (not an Amphibia one, that is) I'd be pretty confident it's correct. The same applies to the seconds hand IMHO: when talking about what after all are lesser details, a blatant NOS with matching passport should prevail over a catalog image.
Congrats on your nice find.


----------



## birdywatch

Hi everyone, I am very new to vintage soviet watches so I was hoping you could advise me. I was wondering whether this could be a real Raketa Big Zero? It's for sale for <70$ and quite used by the looks of things but it seems authentic to me based on what I've read so far. I guess it's a fairly recent one based on the logo. I'd really appreciate your feedback!


----------



## Alm14286

Hi, to my (very) untrained eye this all looks to be in order. The hands appear to be original with a flat acrylic lens. The dial is one of the more recent units but also looks genuine to me - I’ve spent a lot of time poring over RBZ’s on eBay and Etsy lately! I know nothing about the technical aspects of movement but all looks to be in order if in need of a little tlc...over to the pros like odessa200 for a more informed view...


----------



## Odessa200

birdywatch said:


> Hi everyone, I am very new to vintage soviet watches so I was hoping you could advise me. I was wondering whether this could be a real Raketa Big Zero? It's for sale for <70$ and quite used by the looks of things but it seems authentic to me based on what I've read so far. I guess it's a fairly recent one based on the logo. I'd really appreciate your feedback!
> View attachment 15729813
> View attachment 15729814
> View attachment 15729815


I would agree that it looks authentic but I do not like the crown and that it stick out away from the case. Maybe photos are taken with the crown pulled out? Ask the seller. I also think 70$ for this condition is a bit excessive. You can get close to a new for 100$. I would rather spend another 30$ to get a better looking watch. The movement also shows some signs of neglect and rough (incompetent) treatment. Personally I think you can do better for 70$.


----------



## birdywatch

Odessa200 said:


> I would agree that it looks authentic but I do not like the crown and that it stick out away from the case. Maybe photos are taken with the crown pulled out? Ask the seller. I also think 70$ for this condition is a bit excessive. You can get close to a new for 100$. I would rather spend another 30$ to get a better looking watch. The movement also shows some signs of neglect and rough (incompetent) treatment. Personally I think you can do better for 70$.


Thank you, that's very helpful information, I thought the authentic ones in a better condition would be much more expensive but I'll be on the look out for a better price-quality ratio!


----------



## 979greenwich

I also don't like the crown. It should look like this:
Pricewise, I don't think you can do much better than Igor


----------



## KF_

I was just about to start scouring the catalogs for a couple of mini Dirskies that I just ordered, but I just found it doing a cameo on this scan. Thanks for saving me the trouble! (It's the 059547 on the right)



mariomart said:


> Hello and Welcome to the F10 Soviet/Russian forum
> 
> Model 059380 with 2409A movement from late 80's through to 90's.
> 
> Here is scan of 1993 catalog.
> 
> View attachment 15726291
> 
> 
> View attachment 15726292





mariomart said:


> Hello and Welcome to the F10 Soviet/Russian forum
> 
> Model 059380 with 2409A movement from late 80's through to 90's.
> 
> Here is scan of 1993 catalog.
> 
> View attachment 15726291
> 
> 
> View attachment 15726292


----------



## Ligavesh

Found these acrylic replacement crystal on ali:

€ 5,81 | Assortment of 3PCs Watch Crystal Acrylic High Domed Wristwatch Glass








6.9US $ |Assortment of 3PCs Watch Crystal Acrylic Domed Wristwatch Glass|Repair Tools & Kits| - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




a.aliexpress.com





Say I want to replace the glass on my Signal that I foolishly dropped and cracked  (28mm - the glass, that is) - what size should I get? 28.5 mm, 29 mm?...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Found these acrylic replacement crystal on ali:
> 
> € 5,81 | Assortment of 3PCs Watch Crystal Acrylic High Domed Wristwatch Glass
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 6.9US $ |Assortment of 3PCs Watch Crystal Acrylic Domed Wristwatch Glass|Repair Tools & Kits| - AliExpress
> 
> 
> Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a.aliexpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Say I want to replace the glass on my Signal that I foolishly dropped and cracked  (28mm - the glass, that is) - what size should I get? 28.5 mm, 29 mm?...


1) skip Ali. Use a proper place to get crystals: Acrylic Watch Glasses
2) Pick correct shape and profile
3) Pick correct size. For that you need to measure the old crystal or the opening in the case. Saying you need a crystal for Signal is not giving anyone needed info. There are quite a few Signal models and I do not think anyone just remembers the crystal sizes or will jump into measuring . If you measure old crystal: you will know the size. If you measure opening: get the crystal that is 0.1 or 0.2 mm larger than the opening.
Note that Signal has 4 hands sitting on top of each other so you need a tall crystal to have the needed clearance so make sure you check the crystal depth and if it sufficient for your watch. 
Good luck!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> 1) skip Ali. Use a proper place to get crystals: Acrylic Watch Glasses
> 2) Pick correct shape and profile
> 3) Pick correct size. For that you need to measure the old crystal or the opening in the case. Saying you need a crystal for Signal is not giving anyone needed info. There are quite a few Signal models and I do not think anyone just remembers the crystal sizes or will jump into measuring . If you measure old crystal: you will know the size. If you measure opening: get the crystal that is 0.1 or 0.2 mm larger than the opening.
> Note that Signal has 4 hands sitting on top of each other so you need a tall crystal to have the needed clearance so make sure you check the crystal depth and if it sufficient for your watch.
> Good luck!


Thanks, it's actually 29 (or 28.9) mm:



















Which one do you think I should choose? Btw, I showed those on ali because from their shape I thought they looked right.

An example of a bad crystal change - the watch I bought just to get the back cover and then to re-sell (that was before I dropped mine):



















The edges on this one are so round, you can't even read the numbers for the Alarm.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks, it's actually 29 (or 28.9) mm:
> 
> View attachment 15735849
> 
> 
> View attachment 15735850
> 
> 
> Which one do you think I should choose? Btw, I showed those on ali because from their shape I thought they looked right.
> 
> An example of a bad crystal change - the watch I bought just to get the back cover and then to re-sell (that was before I dropped mine):
> 
> View attachment 15735854
> 
> 
> View attachment 15735856
> 
> 
> The edges on this one are so round, you can't even read the numbers for the Alarm.


o noooo... you cannot measure the top or side of the crystal. You need to measure the edge. So you need to take extract the crystal and measure the edge.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> o noooo... you cannot measure the top or side of the crystal. You need to measure the edge. So you need to take extract the crystal and measure the edge.


for the sake of the argument -and to save time - let's say I measure 28.5 mm (for example) - what size crystal should I take? And do you know what shape from the link would fit the Signal (the one I measured)?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> for the sake of the argument -and to save time - let's say I measure 28.5 mm (for example) - what size crystal should I take? And do you know what shape from the link would fit the Signal (the one I measured)?


i would probably go with this




__





Domed Extra High, Sternkreuz HH


Cousins UK for Domed Extra High, Sternkreuz HH




www.cousinsuk.com




Size 28.6 
This profile has the inner hight 3.7mm. To make sure this is right I would measure the hight of the crystal I have and subtracted the thickness of the crystal. If that would be much smaller than 3.7mm I would pick a different type.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> i would probably go with this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Domed Extra High, Sternkreuz HH
> 
> 
> Cousins UK for Domed Extra High, Sternkreuz HH
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cousinsuk.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Size 28.6
> This profile has the inner hight 3.7mm. To make sure this is right I would measure the hight of the crystal I have and subtracted the thickness of the crystal. If that would be much smaller than 3.7mm I would pick a different type.


thanks


----------



## Ligavesh

Would someone have an explanation why this Raketa Amphibian doesn't have the name "Raketa" on the dial? Is the dial fake, was it damaged, did the insxruption "Raketa" just fade away? The seller just says he got it like that... You can't see well, but I think there is "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" down there...




























Btw, is that a scratch on the crown? Wefe the crowns on these chromed?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Would someone have an explanation why this Raketa Amphibian doesn't have the name "Raketa" on the dial? Is the dial fake, was it damaged, did the insxruption "Raketa" just fade away? The seller just says he got it like that... You can't see well, but I think there is "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" down there...
> 
> View attachment 15743201
> 
> 
> View attachment 15743202
> 
> 
> View attachment 15743203
> 
> 
> Btw, is that a scratch on the crown? Wefe the crowns on these chromed?
> 
> View attachment 15743204


most likely it was damaged while cleaning/servicing and the text was completely removed.


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Poljot:




























No movement shot, I asked for one, seller didn't reply yet.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 15747274
> 
> 
> View attachment 15747275
> 
> 
> View attachment 15747276
> 
> 
> No movement shot, I asked for one, seller didn't reply yet.


Possibly wrong hands and back (but I am not sure). And I would like to see the movement having the old style bearings.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Possibly wrong hands and back (but I am not sure). And I would like to see the movement having the old style bearings.


Thanks. I didn't find it at MrOatman's, and haven't managed to go through all the catalogs yet...

Anyway, the seller didn't send me a picture of the movement of _this_ watch, he just sent this pic and said "it's the same movement inside":


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks. I didn't find it at MrOatman's, and haven't managed to go through all the catalogs yet...
> 
> Anyway, the seller didn't send me a picture of the movement of _this_ watch, he just sent this pic and said "it's the same movement inside":
> 
> View attachment 15747516


I would walk away


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> I would walk away


wait, he sent me this now:



















I mean I will probably walk away because I bought another watch, but just in case it stays unsold sometime in the future, should I come back to it?


----------



## WildcatWatchCollector

Hi All! Looking at a Vostok with a gold/black dial but seeing two different bezel variants. I'm not sure the black bezel variant is original, but looking forward to input from this group. Does anyone know which is correct?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> wait, he sent me this now:
> 
> View attachment 15748102
> 
> 
> View attachment 15748103
> 
> 
> I mean I will probably walk away because I bought another watch, but just in case it stays unsold sometime in the future, should I come back to it?


I take my comment back now that I see the movement. It is right. Here is from the catalog. I would only question maybe the black second hand but overall I think it is a good watch


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> I take my comment back now that I see the movement. It is right. Here is from the catalog. I would only question maybe the black second hand but overall I think it is a good watch
> View attachment 15748458


Thanks a lot! Unfortunately I'll have to hold back for now, as I already splurged on something else... but I'll keep an eye on this.

....if I don't change my mind till later....


----------



## Kaiser4

Could somebody share his opinion with this one? I want a Baker like this but I want a legit one (as we all do, right?). The movement seems right to me. My main concern is the case as I'm not sure if the grooves are too subtle. I think brass cases can't be polished but I need some expert insights here. Should those grooves be bolder? Any other thought on the dial, hands and crown will be more than welcome. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

Kaiser4 said:


> Could somebody share his opinion with this one? I want a Baker like this but I want a legit one (as we all do, right?). The movement seems right to me. My main concern is the case as I'm not sure if the grooves are too subtle. I think brass cases can't be polished but I need some expert insights here. Should those grooves be bolder? Any other thought on the dial, hands and crown will be more than welcome. Thanks in advance.
> View attachment 15749063
> View attachment 15749064
> View attachment 15749065
> View attachment 15749066


The case is legit. No one would spend time faking this case. There are 2 types: with small grooves and large. Take a look.

you can only lightly buff the case but all the deep scratches cannot be removed. Theoretically you can re-chrome it but the effort normally exceeds the benefits: easier to find and a buy a better preserved watch if this one does not look good to you.


----------



## Kaiser4

Odessa200 said:


> The case is legit. No one would spend time faking this case. There are 2 types: with small grooves and large. Take a look.
> 
> you can only lightly buff the case but all the deep scratches cannot be removed. Theoretically you can re-chrome it but the effort normally exceeds the benefits: easier to find and a buy a better preserved watch if this one does not look good to you.
> 
> View attachment 15749359
> View attachment 15749360


I hadn't noted the difference between large and soft grooves. I keep learning things constantly. The rest of the watch is ok or is there anything I should worry about?

Thank you!!


----------



## 979greenwich

Unsure if this dial went with thin lines case...








Raketa TV and Baker


Starting this topic so we can share nice TVs and Bakers. I was searching old topics and it seems that Biz Zeros and Copernicus models dominate our minds but take a look at this TV. I would trade any 2 of my Copernicus or Big Zeros for one of this. Joking, I love them all but still, what a...




www.watchuseek.com




Maybe someone has a catalogue picture at hand?


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Unsure if this dial went with thin lines case...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa TV and Baker
> 
> 
> Starting this topic so we can share nice TVs and Bakers. I was searching old topics and it seems that Biz Zeros and Copernicus models dominate our minds but take a look at this TV. I would trade any 2 of my Copernicus or Big Zeros for one of this. Joking, I love them all but still, what a...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe someone has a catalogue picture at hand?


there is nothing wrong with this watch as far as I see.


----------



## Kaiser4

The watch is coming home. Now, the wait we all know about. 

Thank you for all the info!!!


----------



## Deaglan1

Can anyone tell me if the Raketa Copernic was ever produced with a date version? I have come across three of the following, all from sellers in different countries. All three have the same black case and black dial with horizontal lines:









One came with "original papers" but the papers refer to a quartz movement 2356. The three digit number on the case back and the number manually entered on the papers are the same. A visual of the movement was not included. The word Copernic/Kopernic does not seem to be included on the papers (in Cyrillic) but do Raketa papers ever include a watch model or just simply the movement number?
The other two watches come with no papers and both have a 2614 H movement. 
Are all three franken watches? I have also come across the exact same watch model with standard hands. 
Thanks for reading this.


----------



## Odessa200

Deaglan1 said:


> Can anyone tell me if the Raketa Copernic was ever produced with a date version? I have come across three of the following, all from sellers in different countries. All three have the same black case and black dial with horizontal lines:
> View attachment 15753026
> 
> 
> One came with "original papers" but the papers refer to a quartz movement 2356. The three digit number on the case back and the number manually entered on the papers are the same. A visual of the movement was not included. The word Copernic/Kopernic does not seem to be included on the papers (in Cyrillic) but do Raketa papers ever include a watch model or just simply the movement number?
> The other two watches come with no papers and both have a 2614 H movement.
> Are all three franken watches? I have also come across the exact same watch model with standard hands.
> Thanks for reading this.


All franken.


----------



## Deaglan1

OK, I assumed so. Thank you Odessa. My own reason for believing this is based merely on limited intuition, gut feeling and the dodgy quartz watch papers included with one of the three watches, plus the same model with standard hands also being available. However, factually, I have nothing to go on. Is there any historical evidence that indicates that all Copernics were non-date? Are their Raketa catalogues out there that verify this throughout the manufacturing span of the Copernic? Would Raketa have had a policy on what constitutes a Copernic?


----------



## Straight_time

Here's how a genuine watch like the one you posted should look like










Copernic is a nickname, the factory never officially referred to it in such way; positively no date, the correct caliber is the 2609.NP only.



















In the upper section of the forum there's a sticky thread which collects links to all available catalogs to date.


----------



## Deaglan1

Thank you Straight. Very succinct. I'll go look at those catalogues.


----------



## trapper777

Odessa200 said:


> medium . Basically the exterior is from an early Zim Pobeda but the movement is a bit later Pobeda by PChZ (plus one screw is missing). So you got 2 watches for the price of one.


I just wanted to say thank you for all your help on this forum. This watch arrived, everyone I show it to thinks it's ugly as sin but it runs pretty well (except that I need to get it demagnetized when I go get a strap for it) and gosh darn it I like it. Might eventually be a practice watch for me if I try to learn how to service them, since it is frankened it feels less precious.


----------



## jimzilla

.


----------



## pablo67

What's the deal with these Molnija watches? I've seen a few on Etsy (like this one, and like the way they look, but they do not look vintage. Are they old movements in new housings?


----------



## schnurrp

Yes, exactly and that one appears it may have a vintage dial being used, too. The dial is almost too good to be true so I would be a little suspicious. If that dial is truly a vintage one in such good condition then why didn't they keep its movement like the one pictured below instead of substituting the plain more modern 3602 movement.


----------



## pablo67

schnurrp said:


> Yes, exactly and that one appears it may have a vintage dial being used, too. The dial is almost too good to be true so I would be a little suspicious. If that dial is truly a vintage one in such good condition then why didn't they keep its movement like the one pictured below instead of substituting the plain more modern 3602 movement.
> View attachment 15759508


Thanks. I was looking at similar Molnija pocket watches on eBay and I haven't seen any with the face where the second hand dial is off to the side. They are always at the 6 position.


----------



## Odessa200

pablo67 said:


> What's the deal with these Molnija watches? I've seen a few on Etsy (like this one, and like the way they look, but they do not look vintage. Are they old movements in new housings?


what is the deal? The Molniya due to its size and abundance of movements is a victim of massive faking! These days people like BIG watches and Molniya is one of the largest. And cheap. So the end result: fakes, mariages, etc, etc. I have a few of such fakes cause I like them.

to answer your question about that special etsy watch: fake. Dials are readily available for a few rubles....


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Hello all! NEw to the forum and new to vintage Russian watches. I really like the one below but I can not find another Vostok with a face like this. Is this a frankenstein watch or a legit from the factory model/configuration?


----------



## Klassified94

Not sure if this is the place to ask this, but has anyone had experience buying vintage watches from Russian sites like avito.ru? I'm trying to find a Raketa Big Zero but there are so many fakes/frankens on international sites like eBay and Etsy, so thought I could find a real one at a decent price on a Russian site. It seems like there are quite a few, and some sellers apparently ship internationally, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Would be grateful for any advice. Thanks.


----------



## JacobC

Klassified94 said:


> Not sure if this is the place to ask this, but has anyone had experience buying vintage watches from Russian sites like avito.ru? I'm trying to find a Raketa Big Zero but there are so many fakes/frankens on international sites like eBay and Etsy, so thought I could find a real one at a decent price on a Russian site. It seems like there are quite a few, and some sellers apparently ship internationally, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea. Would be grateful for any advice. Thanks.


I have contacts that scour Avito for me. Afaik it's pretty good.


----------



## JacobC

Okay I finally have a vintage piece to ask about!

Can anyone tell me what model this is? I'm getting close but haven't found the correct reference.

I thought it was a 346109 but now I'm concerned the dial isn't original like I originally thought.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Ligavesh

JacobC said:


> Okay I finally have a vintage piece to ask about!
> 
> Can anyone tell me what model this is? I'm getting close but haven't found the correct reference.
> 
> I thought it was a 346109 but now I'm concerned the dial isn't original like I originally thought.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Well I don't have a concrete catalog picture, but the 'Jeans' dial fits with that case, the colors match, so I don't see a reason to think it's fake. Maybe others have more info?


----------



## haha

Looks like a legit 343109 that you can find in the 1985 Raketa catalog. The only difference i see with the catalog (and mine) is the black second hang instead of gold.


----------



## JacobC

Thank you!


----------



## Avidfan

SovietSurplusGuy said:


> Hello all! NEw to the forum and new to vintage Russian watches. I really like the one below but I can not find another Vostok with a face like this. Is this a frankenstein watch or a legit from the factory model/configuration?
> View attachment 15760688












This is a 09 cased auto-Komandirskie and it looks to be all correct, I can't show you a catalogue image as it's not in any of the Soviet catalogues but it does feature in Juri Levenbergs book on Russian wristwatches that was published in 1995...


----------



## Wimads

Hi all, something other than a watch, a Raketa Mini Alarm Clock. These aren't talked about a lot, so I also couldn't find much online on if these are faked often or not - I honestly didn't expect they would be, but this one has me doubting a little bit.

The thing that put a doubt in my mind is the brushed finish on the body. I don't think I have seen any example like that before. In combination with the pristine cosmetic condition, that made me wonder. Do any of you know whether these once came with brushed bodies as well?

All the other details seem right to my untrained eye. The seller does seem to have quite good feedback also. Looking at the other items he sells, I don't see anything that looks suspicious. So maybe I'm being a bit overly cautious. Might just be the case was refinished to hide some marks?


----------



## pablo67

schnurrp said:


> Yes, exactly and that one appears it may have a vintage dial being used, too. The dial is almost too good to be true so I would be a little suspicious. If that dial is truly a vintage one in such good condition then why didn't they keep its movement like the one pictured below instead of substituting the plain more modern 3602 movement.
> View attachment 15759508


Is this legit? I have trouble telling the difference. It looks similar to the one you posted but doesn't have the writing on the wheel


----------



## Alm14286

Does anybody have any views on how genuine this Raketa Big Zero is? While it's a little rough around the edges with a new bracelet the dial, hands and movement look good to me? The crown is a little worn though. Thanks all


----------



## Odessa200

Wimads said:


> Hi all, something other than a watch, a Raketa Mini Alarm Clock. These aren't talked about a lot, so I also couldn't find much online on if these are faked often or not - I honestly didn't expect they would be, but this one has me doubting a little bit.
> 
> The thing that put a doubt in my mind is the brushed finish on the body. I don't think I have seen any example like that before. In combination with the pristine cosmetic condition, that made me wonder. Do any of you know whether these once came with brushed bodies as well?
> 
> All the other details seem right to my untrained eye. The seller does seem to have quite good feedback also. Looking at the other items he sells, I don't see anything that looks suspicious. So maybe I'm being a bit overly cautious. Might just be the case was refinished to hide some marks?
> 
> View attachment 15762396
> 
> 
> View attachment 15762398
> 
> 
> View attachment 15762399


Looks good to me. The case finish looks like mine. Your is clean and photo is taken at a nice lighting condition.


----------



## Odessa200

pablo67 said:


> Is this legit? I have trouble telling the difference. It looks similar to the one you posted but doesn't have the writing on the wheel
> 
> View attachment 15762559


this is legit. The other watch is quite different (much earlier, still old logo, caliber ChK-6) but that besides the point: this caliber is Ok. Clean Ratchet wheel is in line with 1964 year the movement was made.
A side note: you better show the dial every time you show the movement so we can see if the dial is time correct with the movement.


----------



## Odessa200

Alm14286 said:


> View attachment 15762560
> View attachment 15762562
> View attachment 15762563
> View attachment 15762566
> Does anybody have any views on how genuine this Raketa Big Zero is? While it's a little rough around the edges with a new bracelet the dial, hands and movement look good to me? The crown is a little worn though. Thanks all


looks like a wrong crystal. No way original will give this seconds hand distortion. No other issues.


----------



## Alm14286

👍👍


----------



## Wimads

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me. The case finish looks like mine. Your is clean and photo is taken at a nice lighting condition.
> View attachment 15762655
> View attachment 15762657
> View attachment 15762658


Thanks for the reassurance. Yeah I think it should be fine, the seller seems alright. Great feedback, and all his other listings seem nothing fishy at all. So probably nothing to worry about.


----------



## pablo67

Odessa200 said:


> this is legit. The other watch is quite different (much earlier, still old logo, caliber ChK-6) but that besides the point: this caliber is Ok. Clean Ratchet wheel is in line with 1964 year the movement was made.
> A side note: you better show the dial every time you show the movement so we can see if the dial is time correct with the movement.


Thanks, here is the front


----------



## Klassified94

I think the crystal on this is correct but is anyone able to verify? All else looks fine as well. Seems in pretty good condition apart from a few dents on the case.




















Update: I just bought it after thoroughly going through the seller's many outstanding reviews mentioning that he doesn't sell frankens. My first vintage watch purchase! Fingers crossed all goes well.


----------



## Odessa200

Klassified94 said:


> I think the crystal on this is correct but is anyone able to verify? All else looks fine as well. Seems in pretty good condition apart from a few dents on the case.
> View attachment 15764696
> View attachment 15764699
> View attachment 15764703
> 
> 
> Update: I just bought it after thoroughly going through the seller's many outstanding reviews mentioning that he doesn't sell frankens. My first vintage watch purchase! Fingers crossed all goes well.


you did well. The watch is fine except for a replaced balance (from an older Raketa).


----------



## Klassified94

Odessa200 said:


> you did well. The watch is fine except for a replaced balance (from an older Raketa).


Wow good eye. Thanks for the info. The seller claimed 100% original parts but I guess I can let that slide.


----------



## Ligavesh

Klassified94 said:


> Wow good eye. Thanks for the info. The seller claimed 100% original parts but I guess I can let that slide.


You also now know for sure that it has been serviced.


----------



## Klassified94

Ligavesh said:


> You also now know for sure that it has been serviced.


Good point!


----------



## Econwatson

Hello : )

I am looking to purchase a Vostok Precision Class, preferably with the Latin text dial.

I am finding a number of watches but really struggling to track down the correct 2809 movement. I've done a fair bit of research on the 2809 movement but still finding discrepancies. I have a few questions which I would love your help with.
- Do we know if the Latin writing dial is specific to a generation of the 2809 movement? Would make it very easy to track down a Franken.

- Was there standardisation on the hands for the Latin-text versions. There seems to be a difference in the second hand, either with a red tip only or sometimes fully red?



















Is it safe to say that a gold movement with the "B" logo on the movement is a genuine 2809 given that the 2809a from this generation was not gold plated?
I have seen gold-plated "B" logo movements without 2809 stamp under the balance wheel and no date. Could this still be a genuine 2809?










- Last, on the first generation movements, there seems to be a lot of discussion on the angular A and whether this is the sign of a Precision first generation movement. Has there been any further consensus on this that I might have missed? In all my searching I have yet to come across a watch with this angular A so I am wondering if this is truly the case. Is there any other factor I can use to tell a first gen 2809 from a 2909a/Volna?










Would really appreciate your guys help so I can make the right purchase : )


----------



## Paula Zanini

Hi everyone, I have recently started to enjoy vintage watches and I'd like some help to identify this Poljot Watch from de 70's. Is it a fake or original? I have read here in this forum many things about them being franken and not really made in Russia. Thank you very much.


----------



## Odessa200

Paula Zanini said:


> Hi everyone, I have recently started to enjoy vintage watches and I'd like some help to identify this Poljot Watch from de 70's. Is it a fake or original? I have read here in this forum many things about them being franken and not really made in Russia. Thank you very much.
> View attachment 15766706
> 
> View attachment 15766707
> 
> View attachment 15766708


I had replied on the other post you started


----------



## Odessa200

Econwatson said:


> Hello : )
> 
> I am looking to purchase a Vostok Precision Class, preferably with the Latin text dial.
> 
> I am finding a number of watches but really struggling to track down the correct 2809 movement. I've done a fair bit of research on the 2809 movement but still finding discrepancies. I have a few questions which I would love your help with.
> - Do we know if the Latin writing dial is specific to a generation of the 2809 movement? Would make it very easy to track down a Franken.
> 
> - Was there standardisation on the hands for the Latin-text versions. There seems to be a difference in the second hand, either with a red tip only or sometimes fully red?
> View attachment 15766561
> 
> 
> View attachment 15766562
> 
> 
> 
> Is it safe to say that a gold movement with the "B" logo on the movement is a genuine 2809 given that the 2809a from this generation was not gold plated?
> I have seen gold-plated "B" logo movements without 2809 stamp under the balance wheel and no date. Could this still be a genuine 2809?
> 
> View attachment 15766563
> 
> 
> - Last, on the first generation movements, there seems to be a lot of discussion on the angular A and whether this is the sign of a Precision first generation movement. Has there been any further consensus on this that I might have missed? In all my searching I have yet to come across a watch with this angular A so I am wondering if this is truly the case. Is there any other factor I can use to tell a first gen 2809 from a 2909a/Volna?
> 
> View attachment 15766584
> 
> 
> Would really appreciate your guys help so I can make the right purchase : )


Looks like you focused on the movement but completely overlooked the dial. Is the authentic dial/case/hands important to you? Cause both of your choices are outrageous fakes! I would pass on both of them: to me the watch must have an authentic exterior. Find a beaten watch with the right movement and use the movement as the donor is much easier than finding a good and authentic exterior.
To answer your questions:
1) no, no relationship between latin dial and some specific movement. 
2) there were no completely red hands on any Precision I know off. You are confused because you look at the fake watches
3) no. Precision is just 2809 as far as I know. Not 2809a nor 2809b
4) yes, caliber may be omitted from the movement. Some have old ChChZ logo some have new B logo. Easier will be for you to post your pics. 
5) the is an excellent post on this forum about early small number movements. Try to locate it!


----------



## Econwatson

Odessa200 said:


> Looks like you focused on the movement but completely overlooked the dial. Is the authentic dial/case/hands important to you? Cause both of your choices are outrageous fakes! I would pass on both of them: to me the watch must have an authentic exterior. Find a beaten watch with the right movement and use the movement as the donor is much easier than finding a good and authentic exterior.
> To answer your questions:
> 1) no, no relationship between latin dial and some specific movement.
> 2) there were no completely red hands on any Precision I know off. You are confused because you look at the fake watches
> 3) no. Precision is just 2809 as far as I know. Not 2809a nor 2809b
> 4) yes, caliber may be omitted from the movement. Some have old ChChZ logo some have new B logo. Easier will be for you to post your pics.
> 5) the is an excellent post on this forum about early small number movements. Try to locate it!


Thankyou so much Odessa, I really value your advice as I see you present in a lot of the previous posts on these watches. I must be honest the movement means a lot to me in this case because of the 2809's heritage.

Here are two watches I located on eBay, both of similar cost, what do you think of these two? I believe both are genuine, the one with Latin writing looks to be in a lot better condition on the dial. However the back of Watch 2 has English text which doesn't match the Russian on the front!

Watch 1:



















Watch 2:


----------



## Odessa200

Econwatson said:


> Thankyou so much Odessa, I really value your advice as I see you present in a lot of the previous posts on these watches. I must be honest the movement means a lot to me in this case because of the 2809's heritage.
> 
> Here are two watches I located on eBay, both of similar cost, what do you think of these two? I believe both are genuine, the one with Latin writing looks to be in a lot better condition on the dial. However the back of Watch 2 has English text which doesn't match the Russian on the front!
> 
> Watch 1:
> 
> View attachment 15766891
> 
> 
> View attachment 15766892
> 
> 
> Watch 2:
> 
> View attachment 15766893
> 
> 
> View attachment 15766894
> 
> 
> View attachment 15766924


these are fine. The 2nd one has wrong dial (movement is in Latin and Back as well so I assume the dial used to be in Latin and that was an export watch). Other than that all is good


----------



## cyanide19

I made a separate thread for this Mayak a while back, but I guess there's no point in digging it up at this point, especially with my question being strictly franken-related.

I picked up the refreshed Mayak inherited from my grandpa, and the watchmaker surprised me with his observation that the watch is a franken, because the case is allegedly slightly too deep for this mechanism. I don't think that grandpa did any major modifications to the watch, and I've seen quite a few Mayaks online looking exactly like mine. Could it be that during production process nobody cared about the case being a fraction of milimeter too deep for the movement? The movement in question is a most ordinary, 16-jewels Pobeda.


----------



## Odessa200

cyanide19 said:


> I made a separate thread for this Mayak a while back, but I guess there's no point in digging it up at this point, especially with my question being strictly franken-related.
> 
> I picked up the refreshed Mayak inherited from my grandpa, and the watchmaker surprised me with his observation that the watch is a franken, because the case is allegedly slightly too deep for this mechanism. I don't think that grandpa did any major modifications to the watch, and I've seen quite a few Mayaks online looking exactly like mine. Could it be that during production process nobody cared about the case being a fraction of milimeter too deep for the movement? The movement in question is a most ordinary, 16-jewels Pobeda.
> 
> View attachment 15768202


This is correct Mayak case as far as I know. Is your watchmaker specializes in Mayaks or PChZ watches? Can you show the movement photo with all the spacer rings, etc. The movement is not an ordinary Pobeda cause ordinary Pobeda is 15 j.


----------



## cyanide19

Odessa200 said:


> This is correct Mayak case as far as I know. Is your watchmaker specializes in Mayaks or PChZ watches? Can you show the movement photo with all the spacer rings, etc. The movement is not an ordinary Pobeda cause ordinary Pobeda is 15 j.


He's definitely a much renowned watchmaker in my area, but not necessarily a specialist in this topic. That's what it looks like now. It does wobble inside the case, although very slightly:









Photos of the movement before a visit to the watchmaker are available here: A couple of questions about my Granpa's Mayak


----------



## Odessa200

cyanide19 said:


> He's definitely a much renowned watchmaker in my area, but not necessarily a specialist in this topic. That's what it looks like now. It does wobble inside the case, although very slightly:
> View attachment 15768354
> 
> 
> Photos of the movement before a visit to the watchmaker are available here: A couple of questions about my Granpa's Mayak


all looks good to me. Lets see what others say.


----------



## congo

Hello comrades,
After many Amphibias the plan is now to get my first non-Vostok to enjoy other Russian watches. Can you please help to identify if this chosen "Big Zero" is really a Big Zero or something else? I spent the last week combing for information about fakes and Big Zero frankenwatches and so now my head is buzzing. Thank you in advance for any advice.


----------



## Ligavesh

congo said:


> Hello comrades,
> After many Amphibias the plan is now to get my first non-Vostok to enjoy other Russian watches. Can you please help to identify if this chosen "Big Zero" is really a Big Zero or something else? I spent the last week combing for information about fakes and Big Zero frankenwatches and so now my head is buzzing. Thank you in advance for any advice.
> 
> View attachment 15770013
> View attachment 15770014
> View attachment 15770015
> 
> View attachment 15770016
> View attachment 15770017
> View attachment 15770018
> 
> View attachment 15770038


Looks good to me.


----------



## yekaterinburg

Hi guys would love to get a view on whether or not this Vympel looks authentic or a Franken!
Thanks 









Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

yekaterinburg said:


> Hi guys would love to get a view on whether or not this Vympel looks authentic or a Franken!
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Ouch.... Fake! All of it.


----------



## Novatime

Hi all. I would love your opinions on the following Luch 'TV'. I find myself drawn to vintage TV-style cases, but I'm less familiar with Luch's than Raketa's variants on this theme. Off to search for Luch catalogs now...


----------



## Odessa200

Novatime said:


> Hi all. I would love your opinions on the following Luch 'TV'. I find myself drawn to vintage TV-style cases, but I'm less familiar with Luch's than Raketa's variants on this theme. Off to search for Luch catalogs now...
> View attachment 15773657
> View attachment 15773661
> View attachment 15773662


Looking good to me


----------



## Novatime

Odessa200 said:


> Looking good to me


Thanks Odessa200, much appreciated. The seller offered a discount so I went ahead and bought it. Now comes the 1-2 month wait for shipping from Ukraine...


----------



## Matt_Hell

Hallo all,
I hope this is the correct section of the forum...
I bought a Komandirski watch from Ukraina. The watch arrived super fast, in less than 10 days to Italy in this crazy Covid time...
I have read big parts of this forum about this watches but I would like some opinions on my watch. The watch has an inscription that says 1969 on it. I would like to know if it seems legit to you. The watch is in outstanding conditions, probably even too much. Can you tell me if you think something has been modded or modified or if hands, movement or whatever seems wrong with you? It is not so much important, I am only curious about it, I don t even think this is some kind of rare watch. I like the watch and paid little money for it and is running fine, so it's totally OK for me.
Here are some pictures.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## 979greenwich

Nice watch, looks very good to me. Lume has a peculiar yellow hue, which could be 1. camera filter or 2. a (good) relume job.


----------



## Vumbo

Is this crystal original, it looks a little too domed to me. Am I right?


----------



## Matt_Hell

979greenwich said:


> Nice watch, looks very good to me. Lume has a peculiar yellow hue, which could be 1. camera filter or 2. a (good) relume job.


Thanks for your so very fast reply...
Can it be all the way back from 1969?
About colours... Well, I am a bit colorblind so don't ask me... My mother says numbers are closer to yellow than to green... Dial is not super bright in the dark...
Here is a picture close to an orange, a lemon and a kiwi if someone si so much interested...


----------



## 979greenwich

Vumbo said:


> Not original.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Nice watch, looks very good to me. Lume has a peculiar yellow hue, which could be 1. camera filter or 2. a (good) relume job.


Looks like a re-lune job to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Matt_Hell said:


> Thanks for your so very fast reply...
> Can it be all the way back from 1969?
> About colours... Well, I am a bit colorblind so don't ask me... My mother says numbers are closer to yellow than to green... Dial is not super bright in the dark...
> Here is a picture close to an orange, a lemon and a kiwi if someone si so much interested...
> View attachment 15775550


Yes, the watch is from 1969. They started making them in 1965 and what you got looks totally legit. A present from the defense minister of the USSR.


----------



## Matt_Hell

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, the watch is from 1969. They started making them in 1965 and what you got looks totally legit. A present from the defense minister of the USSR.


Thank you very much. I am super happy this piece is actually from back in the day. I hope the guy it was given to was a good person and I hope he coped well with all the transitions that went through. The watch is very Beautiful, I can t stop picking at it every ten minutes... Very clean design, super slim. I don t have to tell this on this forum, but it is very fascinating to have a mechanical device running and reliable in these Digital days. The need to have a 60's Komandirskie came to me because I found in a drower an amphibia I bought in Moskow in 1991. I Like that watch very much and so I found out about the new watches from vostok, but still the original sleek design of the komandirskie really hooked me up. I ll ask about the amphibia in the correct section of the forum. This place is amazing btw, Great people sharing knowledge and passion. Very happy to have discoered it. Thanks again.


----------



## bobby54

Hello kamarades,
I'm looking for a raketa big zero. A must have in a soviet collection.
I would like one in good condition and quite legit.
Below some pics of one.
Thanks for your advices


----------



## 979greenwich

Minute hand, crown and balance are wrong. The rest I can't see well.


----------



## bobby54

979greenwich said:


> Minute hand, crown and balance are wrong. The rest I can't see well.


T


979greenwich said:


> Minute hand, crown and balance are wrong. The rest I can't see well.


Thanks i ve seen another one more expensive 190 euros (too expensive? Negociate?)but perhaps more legit?


----------



## bobby54

And this one? I prefer peterhof models








Raketa Big Zero, Glasnost, USSR 1980s | Russian Watches


Raketa Big Zero, Glasnost, USSR 1980s Vintage Russian propaganda watch – Raketa Big Zero – Glasnost. Raketa 2609 HA movement, 19 ruby jewels. Mechanical, hand wind watch. Power reserve 36 hours. Central second hand. Shock-proof balance. Diameter 38 mm, thickness 9 mm. Stainless steel caseback...




www.russian-watches.info


----------



## Klokken

This particular Raketa model seems (probably because it's rather well known) to either have been made in a few variants, or there are a lot of after-market dials and crowns around. If I had to guess, I would assume both. There were also more than just the standard crown with the rounded tip used by Raketa themselves, as is evident from the old catalogue showing an alternative flat crown (see picture 1, third watch from left in the bottom row).










My question regards theses two example:

Picture 2: Very large crown (dubious about that), and the CCCP quality mark I see on a lot of Raketas online, but I'm not certain whether that mark has actually been used on dials of that model. Maybe someone here knows. The case checks out, but seems to be in really great shape.










Picture 3: Slim-rimmed cases (two different ones at that), which I've seen people claim was a thing (again, unsure about that), and a crown that doesn't exactly fit the ones that are common in most genuine models, although at least the left one's crown is in line with the flat crown in the old catalogue. They don't have the CCCP mark, and as opposed to many other examples online, they also say "made in Russia".










Given that Soviet manufacturing, especially towards the end, as well as directly after the fall, could be a bit chaotic, I don't want to just look at the old catalogue and go: "These exact dials and cases, maybe with the two crowns depicted, everything else is fake." Maybe someone here is a bit more of an expert and can help out.


----------



## Ligavesh

Opinions on this Poljot:





































???

My main issue is, I found the watch on MrOatman's site, everything looks fine, except his doesn't have a cyclops. Then again, a lot of other watches from the same era, same case, all have cyclops. What do you think?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Opinions on this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 15788830
> 
> 
> View attachment 15788833
> 
> 
> View attachment 15788834
> 
> 
> View attachment 15788838
> 
> 
> ???
> 
> My main issue is, I found the watch on MrOatman's site, everything looks fine, except his doesn't have a cyclops. Then again, a lot of other watches from the same era, same case, all have cyclops. What do you think?


this is correct. The crystal should be with the magnifier.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is correct. The crystal should be with the magnifier.


Whew! Thanks, I already bought it without waiting on an answer here, out of fear that someone would grab it in the meantime - like I lost that other one I mentioned in the buying thread the other day.


----------



## primoun

Hi everyone. I'm looking at this big zero on ebay and I wanted your opinions on its authenticity. It looks good to me though I'm not 100% sure the crystal is the correct flat top. Should I ask for a pic from the side? I appreciate the help!


----------



## Odessa200

primoun said:


> Hi everyone. I'm looking at this big zero on ebay and I wanted your opinions on its authenticity. It looks good to me though I'm not 100% sure the crystal is the correct flat top. Should I ask for a pic from the side? I appreciate the help!


looks good to me. The crystal has some big scratches so you may want to research how to restore it a bit. Other than that all is Ok.


----------



## primoun

Odessa200 said:


> looks good to me. The crystal has some big scratches so you may want to research how to restore it a bit. Other than that all is Ok.


Will do and thanks! Bought the watch. I guess the silver lining to scratches is that it's less likely to be a replacement crystal.


----------



## Matt_Hell

Hallo all,
after buying a komandirskie watch I went crazy for the russian watches... Looking for an amphibia I stambled on this and ended up buying it. I have read what I could find about the poljot-volmax affair and about the assembly from spare parts of watches in the transition but still I don't know what I bought.
I have seen a post in the forum of one person who had this watch but it was very old. I have seen pictures and reviews of a similar watch with alarm and of a similar watch but with 24 hours dial. I have seen crazy expensive aviator watches but I am pretty sure they are something different from what I bought. Any help welcome. Thanks in advance.


----------



## JacobC

Matt_Hell said:


> Hallo all,
> after buying a komandirskie watch I went crazy for the russian watches... Looking for an amphibia I stambled on this and ended up buying it. I have read what I could find about the poljot-volmax affair and about the assembly from spare parts of watches in the transition but still I don't know what I bought.
> I have seen a post in the forum of one person who had this watch but it was very old. I have seen pictures and reviews of a similar watch with alarm and of a similar watch but with 24 hours dial. I have seen crazy expensive aviator watches but I am pretty sure they are something different from what I bought. Any help welcome. Thanks in advance.
> View attachment 15790841
> View attachment 15790842
> View attachment 15790843
> View attachment 15790845


To my untrained eye, I think you're okay. I've owned a reference that was identical. Sometimes you get a red seconds hand if they're redone afaik


----------



## SinanjuStein

Matt_Hell said:


> Hallo all,
> after buying a komandirskie watch I went crazy for the russian watches... Looking for an amphibia I stambled on this and ended up buying it. I have read what I could find about the poljot-volmax affair and about the assembly from spare parts of watches in the transition but still I don't know what I bought.
> I have seen a post in the forum of one person who had this watch but it was very old. I have seen pictures and reviews of a similar watch with alarm and of a similar watch but with 24 hours dial. I have seen crazy expensive aviator watches but I am pretty sure they are something different from what I bought. Any help welcome. Thanks in advance.


Seems alright and i remember them with the unmarked late production style Poljot 2614 movements, though i've seen a couple with the bridged marked with English text but that might have been a replacement bridge.

Strap isn't the kind they came with but i'm guessing you'll be throwing it in a drawer for something nicer later.


----------



## pyjujiop

I saw this on Etsy and I know it's franken as all hell, but what mystifies me is that the photo depicts a Raketa cal. 2609.H with 18 jewels. I've always read that 2609.H has either 17 or 19, depending on how you count, and they're marked with 19 from the factory. What the heck is this thing? The 18 looks like it could have been altered from 19. Did the Frankenmeister use a part from a 17-jewel caliber that left it with 18? I actually think this is pretty cool frankenwork, but at $160? Come on...


----------



## SinanjuStein

pyjujiop said:


> I saw this on Etsy and I know it's franken as all hell, but what mystifies me is that the photo depicts a Raketa cal. 2609.H with 18 jewels. I've always read that 2609.H has either 17 or 19, depending on how you count, and they're marked with 19 from the factory. What the heck is this thing? The 18 looks like it could have been altered from 19. Did the Frankenmeister use a part from a 17-jewel caliber that left it with 18? I actually think this is pretty cool frankenwork, but at $160? Come on...


Classic tourist watch essentially, or a franken if you'd prefer calling it like that.

Fake cheaply made dial (simple print), hands that i have no idea where they're from, an incorrect movement as the 24hour watches should have a 2623 movement. Perhaps the 2609 was modified to do a 24hour cycle instead of a 12 like a lot of these do but the jewel count has nothing to do with it. And for 160$ you can get a good example of a Raketa 2623 to start with, though the display caseback is pretty neat.


----------



## Matt_Hell

SinanjuStein said:


> Seems alright and i remember them with the unmarked late production style Poljot 2614 movements, though i've seen a couple with the bridged marked with English text but that might have been a replacement bridge.
> 
> Strap isn't the kind they came with but i'm guessing you'll be throwing it in a drawer for something nicer later.


Thanks for the informations. Well, I paid not too much. If/when it arrives from Russia I ll see how it is working and how it looks. I am afraid 40mm might be a Little too big for me. If it is fine I ll buy a strap. Where is a good place for buying straps for me living in Italy? Any good website? Beside all this I am very happy I found this watch. It was a good hint to discover all about flieger watch es. I wish My dad was still alive. It would have been of major interest for him. He liked watches and was super passionate about war history. A flieger would have been the perfect present for him... Even if he hated ****s... One of the last days of his life I was watching TV with him and found AN old war movie. So I asked him if he liked that and he said that it was always fine watching ****s being killed...


----------



## Ligavesh

I couldn't find this one in the catalogs:



















What makes me suspicious is that there is the same model (I suppose), but with different hands:



















What do you think?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I couldn't find this one in the catalogs:
> 
> View attachment 15793822
> 
> 
> View attachment 15793824
> 
> 
> What makes me suspicious is that there is the same model (I suppose), but with different hands:
> 
> View attachment 15793827
> 
> 
> View attachment 15793828
> 
> 
> What do you think?


Both are franked. The 1st has a correct movement that is time correctly for this Zim (look near the the serial number and you will see a big difference between the 2 movement). I did not examine the movement that closely thought but it looks Ok (1st one). As far as hands, here is the catalog. 1st has hands from Sputnick


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Both are franked. The 1st has a correct movement that is time correctly for this Zim (look near the the serial number and you will see a big difference between the 2 movement). I did not examine the movement that closely thought but it looks Ok (1st one). As far as hands, here is the catalog. 1st has hands from Sputnick
> View attachment 15793906


Thanks, I might still get it - if the price is low enough as for a franken - cause I think it looks good with those hands (the first one).


----------



## Funditor

Hi everyone,

Does this Raketa with Latin script and Roman numerals look genuine? It's listed as being old new stock, serviced, and comes with no box or papers. Apparently the strap is new. It has 2609.HA stamped on the movement, and the seller indicates that the year of manufacture is approximately 1972. My knowledge of Soviet/Russian watches is quite limited, so I'd be very grateful for any insight those of you with more experience and expertise could offer.

Thanks


----------



## primoun

Funditor said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Does this Raketa with Latin script and Roman numerals look genuine? It's listed as being old new stock, serviced, and comes with no box or papers. Apparently the strap is new. It has 2609.HA stamped on the movement, and the seller indicates that the year of manufacture is approximately 1972. My knowledge of Soviet/Russian watches is quite limited, so I'd be very grateful for any insight those of you with more experience and expertise could offer.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> View attachment 15794333
> View attachment 15794334
> View attachment 15794335
> View attachment 15794336
> View attachment 15794337


It looks pretty close to the one listed here on mroatman's website: Raketa | Watches of the USSR

The dial looks a bit fuzzier in your pictures, but maybe that's just the camera quality? His listing also says that it's from the 1980's.


----------



## Funditor

primoun said:


> It looks pretty close to the one listed here on mroatman's website: Raketa | Watches of the USSR
> 
> The dial looks a bit fuzzier in your pictures, but maybe that's just the camera quality? His listing also says that it's from the 1980's.


Ok, thanks. From the pictures, it's really hard to tell if the dial has the same kind of sunburst pattern. Is there anything suspicious about a supposed new old stock watch not having the original strap?


----------



## primoun

Funditor said:


> Ok, thanks. From the pictures, it's really hard to tell if the dial has the same kind of sunburst pattern. Is there anything suspicious about a supposed new old stock watch not having the original strap?


I believe in some cases watches in the USSR didn't come included with their own strap. However, many 'new old stock' items being sold online are fake in my experience. If the seller has more than one of these available, I tend to avoid those as they're often faked.









Still, nothing in the pictures stands out to me as suspicious in particular. Maybe you could ask him for clearer photos demonstrating the pattern on the dial and maybe someone else with more experience on this forum can weigh in.


----------



## Funditor

primoun said:


> I believe in some cases watches in the USSR didn't come included with their own strap. However, many 'new old stock' items being sold online are fake in my experience. If the seller has more than one of these available, I tend to avoid those as they're often faked.
> View attachment 15794368
> 
> 
> Still, nothing in the pictures stands out to me as suspicious in particular. Maybe you could ask him for clearer photos demonstrating the pattern on the dial and maybe someone else with more experience on this forum can weigh in.


Ok, I'll do that. Thanks.


----------



## Funditor

Well, that was fast. I asked the seller for some better quality photos of the dial, and he sent some right away. Does this look legit?


----------



## Odessa200

Funditor said:


> Well, that was fast. I asked the seller for some better quality photos of the dial, and he sent some right away. Does this look legit?
> 
> View attachment 15794421
> View attachment 15794422
> View attachment 15794423
> View attachment 15794425


all good.


----------



## Funditor

Odessa200 said:


> all good.


Much appreciated. Thanks for the help.


----------



## salmeine

Curious if these watches are legitimate or franken, and if prices seem fair.
Thanks in advance!
1. Vostok (Amphibia, Green Gradient) $105USD

















2. Raketa 24Hr Antarctic $145USD


----------



## elsoldemayo

The Vostok could be the one in this catalogue pic, bottom 2 from left. If so it looks good.


----------



## elsoldemayo

The Raketa is the bottom one on this page, but doesn't seem to match the paperwork shown. The watch looks good, just don't pay extra for the paper


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> The Raketa is the bottom one on this page, but doesn't seem to match the paperwork shown. The watch looks good, just don't pay extra for the paper
> 
> View attachment 15795313


why do you say so? I think the papers match. The watch looks chromed but it is gilded. I made same mistake and actually know this watch


----------



## Avidfan

salmeine said:


> Curious if these watches are legitimate or franken, and if prices seem fair.
> Thanks in advance!
> 1. Vostok (Amphibia, Green Gradient) $105USD


Vostok is a 020521, here's an image from the 1993 catalogue, most have one lume spot @ 12 although the catalogue image has two, they can have either type of bezel...


----------



## timelightsky

Hi comrades, looking at this 3017 and would like to ask for the group's opinion... Crystal is not original, beveled lug case ok I think, maybe replaced balance, or maybe not (too late serial)? Is the dial ok? Thank you!


----------



## elsoldemayo

Odessa200 said:


> why do you say so? I think the papers match. The watch looks chromed but it is gilded. I made same mistake and actually know this watch


Maybe I have read papers incorrectly all along, but I expected to see the model number?


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> Maybe I have read papers incorrectly all along, but I expected to see the model number?


the model number is not shown here. So you can say 'inconclusive' based on what is shown. But here is the other photo of this watch that I hot when it was offered to me. Here you can see all the needed info


----------



## elsoldemayo

Thanks Odessa. Lovely watch in great condition. $145 is not an extortionate price for it.


----------



## philippeF

979greenwich said:


> Nice watch, looks very good to me. Lume has a peculiar yellow hue, which could be 1. camera filter or 2. a (good) relume job.


I agree, a good relume job ...


----------



## SinanjuStein

I usually can see obvious stuff out from a kilometer away but this one confuses me as catalog diving doesn't help.

1983 catalog's version has slim hands, 1987 version has what seems to be the thicker version of the hands same as thing one but on neither i can discern if it has a textured dial like this one.










I think it's either correct or it has the hands from the quartz version of the same style of watch but i'm not entirely sure.


----------



## yekaterinburg

Hey I was just looking at this watch. From the catalogue picture it seems that the hands are original. However the photo is in black and white and I find the silver hands with gold minute markers a bit unusual. I would be interested to get the opinion of the forum about whether or not this is an original configuration

Thanks 
















Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## haha

yekaterinburg said:


> Hey I was just looking at this watch. From the catalogue picture it seems that the hands are original. However the photo is in black and white and I find the silver hands with gold minute markers a bit unusual. I would be interested to get the opinion of the forum about whether or not this is an original configuration
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


Here's a picture of mine with silver hands that i believe to be genuine. They seem to be slightly different though (thicker at the base).
A very beautiful watch that i highly recommend


----------



## PiotrS

timelightsky said:


> Hi comrades, looking at this 3017 and would like to ask for the group's opinion... Crystal is not original, beveled lug case ok I think, maybe replaced balance, or maybe not (too late serial)? Is the dial ok? Thank you!


Yes, the bridge with balance has probably been changed.
Check the logo POLJOT under the balance/bridge.
The rest is fine (not crystal but you already know that.)


----------



## yekaterinburg

haha said:


> Here's a picture of mine with silver hands that i believe to be genuine. They seem to be slightly different though (thicker at the base).
> A very beautiful watch that i highly recommend
> View attachment 15802181


Thanks, looks stunning!! Interesting about the slight variation but seems to support the theory that the hands in the catalogue are silver !

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

yekaterinburg said:


> Hey I was just looking at this watch. From the catalogue picture it seems that the hands are original. However the photo is in black and white and I find the silver hands with gold minute markers a bit unusual. I would be interested to get the opinion of the forum about whether or not this is an original configuration
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


No need to guess my friend. You just need to look at the codes (and read a bit Russian ) 
The watch is right.


----------



## discosmiter

Sekonda 3017 in working condition, allegedly original, appeared on local market.
Pictures are not great not terrible, i have asked owner to put some decent pictures, but can you tell anything odd on this watch?

Thanks for helping.

Original image in full resolution


https://images.kupujemprodajem.com//photos/oglasi/5/27/113616275/113616275_6066de8f3e7869-94232459WP_20210402_10_.jpg




































EDIT: Better quality pictures added to the post.
Apparently, based on serial number - this is a late '70-ties watch.


----------



## yekaterinburg

Odessa200 said:


> No need to guess my friend. You just need to look at the codes (and read a bit Russian )
> The watch is right.
> 
> View attachment 15802681
> View attachment 15802683


Once again Odessa you provide some brilliant insight! Thanks a lot! 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ligavesh

No pictures of the movement, but can one tell whether this is a new print dial from these pictures:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> No pictures of the movement, but can one tell whether this is a new print dial from these pictures:
> 
> View attachment 15804413
> 
> 
> View attachment 15804414
> 
> 
> View attachment 15804415


new dial, new crown, case from Luch. Pass on it.


----------



## elsoldemayo

discosmiter said:


> Sekonda 3017 in working condition, allegedly original, appeared on local market.
> Pictures are not great not terrible, i have asked owner to put some decent pictures, but can you tell anything odd on this watch?
> 
> Thanks for helping.
> 
> Original image in full resolution
> 
> EDIT: Better quality pictures added to the post.
> Apparently, based on serial number - this is a late '70-ties watch.


Yep, mid to late 70's. The Minute hand lume seems very green, but I suspect lighting rather than anything untoward. Chrono hand has lost it's red dot too. Also the sub-dial hands seem a little thick comapring to examples posted elsewhere e.g. Show Your Strela!


----------



## Frozetolife

Recently got this and was hoping anyone had any information on it. Crown looks slightly cleaner than rest of watch, wondering if its authentic. Unfortunately







second hand runs but minute hand doesn't follow. Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Frozetolife said:


> Recently got this and was hoping anyone had any information on it. Crown looks slightly cleaner than rest of watch, wondering if its authentic. Unfortunately
> View attachment 15808218
> second hand runs but minute hand doesn't follow. Thanks
> View attachment 15808217
> View attachment 15808220
> View attachment 15808221


this is mine. And the catalog image of the gilded version. Non gilded probably also exist. You can see the crown shown in the catalog.


----------



## beboy

discosmiter said:


> Sekonda 3017 in working condition, allegedly original, appeared on local market.
> Pictures are not great not terrible, i have asked owner to put some decent pictures, but can you tell anything odd on this watch?
> 
> Thanks for helping.
> 
> Original image in full resolution
> 
> 
> https://images.kupujemprodajem.com//photos/oglasi/5/27/113616275/113616275_6066de8f3e7869-94232459WP_20210402_10_.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15804369
> 
> 
> View attachment 15804371
> 
> 
> EDIT: Better quality pictures added to the post.
> Apparently, based on serial number - this is a late '70-ties watch.


I am not a watch specialist, but I think the movement is the same as the Seagull 1963. I heard it's a good movement, but it is not Russian, it's Chinese


----------



## Odessa200

beboy said:


> I am not a watch specialist, but I think the movement is the same as the Seagull 1963. I heard it's a good movement, but it is not Russian, it's Chinese


no, of course not Seagul. It is based on Swiss Venus 150 / 152 calibers.


----------



## beboy

Odessa200 said:


> no, of course not Seagul. It is based on Swiss Venus 150 / 152 calibers.


Ok, thanks for the rectification. So seagull Tianjin also based their movement on the same Swiss movement?


----------



## Odessa200

beboy said:


> Ok, thanks for the rectification. So seagull Tianjin also based their movement on the same Swiss movement?


that I do not know


----------



## Frozetolife

Odessa200 said:


> this is mine. And the catalog image of the gilded version. Non gilded probably also exist. You can see the crown shown in the catalog.
> View attachment 15808343
> View attachment 15808345


Thank you for your wisdom, much appreciated, got to get mine serviced haha, yours is in much better condition. Cheers


----------



## jpc2808

What do you guys think about this piece? Thanks in advance!


----------



## primoun

jpc2808 said:


> What do you guys think about this piece? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 15809202
> View attachment 15809203
> 
> View attachment 15809204
> View attachment 15809205


Do you have a picture of the movement?


----------



## jpc2808

primoun said:


> Do you have a picture of the movement?


No, seller didn't publish any pictures of movement


----------



## primoun

jpc2808 said:


> No, seller didn't publish any pictures of movement


I would ask for a picture of the movement to verify that it hasn't been replaced with different parts. There are a lot of 2209 movements which could be substituted instead of the correct 1M43 2209 movement.


----------



## Odessa200

jpc2808 said:


> What do you guys think about this piece? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 15809202
> View attachment 15809203
> 
> View attachment 15809204
> View attachment 15809205


The case looks right


----------



## PiotrS

discosmiter said:


> Sekonda 3017 in working condition, allegedly original, appeared on local market.
> Pictures are not great not terrible, i have asked owner to put some decent pictures, but can you tell anything odd on this watch?
> 
> Thanks for helping.
> 
> Original image in full resolution
> 
> 
> https://images.kupujemprodajem.com//photos/oglasi/5/27/113616275/113616275_6066de8f3e7869-94232459WP_20210402_10_.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Better quality pictures added to the post.
> Apparently, based on serial number - this is a late '70-ties watch.


So, sekond hand and chrono minute hand is change.
Eye in chrono hand you see.
Maybe they were painted red on the tips..... mayby. minuta hand and hour hand they look strange ...
I think it's just a photo effect
Look this may watch. 
my
IMHO.


----------



## starjay

I got this weird Pobeda, because I like the dial, hands and bracelet. The mechanism is a 1st Moscow Pobeda.
I got it for a bargain, so I'm happy with it. Also, what's written on the clasp?
Has anyone come accross a franken like this one before? Thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

starjay said:


> I got this weird Pobeda, because I like the dial, hands and bracelet. The mechanism is a 1st Moscow Pobeda.
> I got it for a bargain, so I'm happy with it. Also, what's written on the clasp?
> Has anyone come accross a franken like this one before? Thank you.
> 
> View attachment 15812417
> View attachment 15812419
> View attachment 15812421
> View attachment 15812423


clasp has 'stainless steel'. I would call it a 'good franken' watch. Old reliable movement is placed in a much more recent body/dial. My 1st Pobeda was like this. I saw a very old watch (date on the movement) with brand new body/dial and grabbed it. Sold it years later


----------



## starjay

Thank you @Odessa200


----------



## codyf

beboy said:


> Ok, thanks for the rectification. So seagull Tianjin also based their movement on the same Swiss movement?


The Seagull ST19 is based on the slightly later Venus 175. It's a chunky movement, thicker than either the 3017 or 3133. Or at least the watches it's in tend to be thicker.

The new 40mm Strelas are all using the ST19. Easy way to tell is that Seagull appears to be putting fake blueing on the screws. There's probably other giveaways but I'm not knowledgeable enough to spot them all without careful inspection.


----------



## yekaterinburg

Hi guys, saw this colourful Chaika. I saw a similar dial in orange on Mr Oatman's sight with monochrome hands matching the dial so that leads me to believe the hands are correct. However the case was completely round unlike this one. The blue watch seems to be a man's watch whilst the orange is listed as women's. Wonder if that may be a reason for the difference. Anyway I've searched for them in catalogues and can't find them so would be interested if anyone can help!
















Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Tantska

Hello everyone, i received this sputnik as a gift. I dis some research but i m not able to know if it is genuine or not :


----------



## elsoldemayo

The crown is a replacement, but the rest of it looks ok.


----------



## Tantska

elsoldemayo said:


> The crown is a replacement, but the rest of it looks ok.


Very nice thanks you ! so now i am looking for a crown ! thanks


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Hey everyone, Is this Raketa a franken watch? The seller has some watches that don't seem original so I wanted to be sure.


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Same seller for this Pobeda. Is it Franken?


----------



## lyi

elsoldemayo said:


> Yep, mid to late 70's. The Minute hand lume seems very green, but I suspect lighting rather than anything untoward. Chrono hand has lost it's red dot too. Also the sub-dial hands seem a little thick comapring to examples posted elsewhere e.g. Show Your Strela!


If it was made past 1975, then the platina mark should be a birdie


----------



## Odessa200

SovietSurplusGuy said:


> Same seller for this Pobeda. Is it Franken?
> 
> View attachment 15818841
> View attachment 15818842
> View attachment 15818843


Crown replaced. Lugs in 1951 should have not removable pins. Balance replaced


----------



## Odessa200

SovietSurplusGuy said:


> Hey everyone, Is this Raketa a franken watch? The seller has some watches that don't seem original so I wanted to be sure.
> View attachment 15818839
> View attachment 15818838
> View attachment 15818840


I do not think this dial belongs to this case... but I may be wrong. Did you check catalogs?


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Thank you Odessa, I appreciate your help!


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think of this Slava Fridge:










I couldn't find it in any catalogue...


----------



## primoun

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think of this Slava Fridge:
> 
> View attachment 15820493
> 
> 
> I couldn't find it in any catalogue...


Looking at mroatman's website here: Slava | Watches of the USSR he has a bunch of Slava fridges but none like the one you're showing. However, all of their second hands are thin and pointy on both ends except for this one: Slava | Watches of the USSR which is labelled 'replaced hands' so maybe the second hand is replaced.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think of this Slava Fridge:
> 
> View attachment 15820493
> 
> 
> I couldn't find it in any catalogue...


Looks good to me.


----------



## Ligavesh

Thanks, @primoun and @Odessa200 !


----------



## Alfajuj

The seller is advertising this as NOS. Could this be legit?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Wrong second hand maybe


----------



## Avidfan

Alfajuj said:


> View attachment 15822020
> 
> View attachment 15822021
> 
> The seller is advertising this as NOS. Could this be legit?


Everything looks ok for the year it was made (around 1989) although the lume on the hands looks a little white compared to the lume on the dial, older examples had the lumed second hand, early type 34 case with 119 bezel etc...


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Hey all, same seller as the last two. He seems to repair them. Is this a Franken?


----------



## Odessa200

SovietSurplusGuy said:


> Hey all, same seller as the last two. He seems to repair them. Is this a Franken?
> View attachment 15823188
> View attachment 15823190


hands are wrong. Shall be with the blue paint.


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Odessa200 said:


> I think hands are wrong. Shall be with the blue paint.


Thank you!


----------



## Ligavesh

Lume on the dial but none on the hands should give it away, it makes no sense. Other way around - loom on hands and no lume on dial - would be possible.


----------



## SovietSurplusGuy

Hey all. Here's 2 more I'm dubious of. The first is titled as a junior DNEPR, but the only DNEPR faces I can find are of viking style boat. The second is "75 years criminal investigation Republic of Tatarstan". I can't find another watches with these descriptions and faces. Are these franken?


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades I hope everyone is doing well. I had a 33 cased blue sub come in the other day and I was wondering
If it is authentic. I can see the dial pins thru the case, overall seems to be in decent shape. 
Thank you in advance for your efforts, best regards, James.


----------



## primoun

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades I hope everyone is doing well. I had a 33 cased blue sub come in the other day and I was wondering
> If it is authentic. I can see the dial pins thru the case, overall seems to be in decent shape.
> Thank you in advance for your efforts, best regards, James.


The balance bridge looks replaced to me as it has a beveled edge while the rest of the movement does not.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades I hope everyone is doing well. I had a 33 cased blue sub come in the other day and I was wondering
> If it is authentic. I can see the dial pins thru the case, overall seems to be in decent shape.
> Thank you in advance for your efforts, best regards, James.


You will never know if your Komandirskie left the factory with a mismatched bridge or it's been changed later, Vostok have often put out watches with balance bridges that don't match (there's even a recent Cadet catalogue that shows this...)

The dial itself has the code 289, your example was used from around 1995 to the early 2000's (but your watch is from approx. 1995-96), earlier transition examples had the jewel count on the dial, even earlier transition examples had a paint frame around the calendar window as well.

The case code of course is still unknown until we have proof positive that it is coded 33, but it could be that case shape decides the case code and not crown position (maybe )


----------



## jimzilla

Hello Avidfan it is nice to hear from you it has been a while and I hope you are doing well sir.
As always thank you so much for your expertise. You are the "lab reference" as far as I am concerned.
Best regards to you my friend and have a great weekend, James.


----------



## jimzilla

I was wondering Avidfan if you know..... has anyone ever asked Meranom 
about the case code debacle?


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I was wondering Avidfan if you know..... has anyone ever asked Meranom
> about the case code debacle?


I don't know if they have, I'm sure someone must know at Meranom or Vostok but the question will probably be lost in translation and you won't get the answer you were looking for.

I've been waiting for a convincing example to appear on eBay etc with it's passport but no luck so far...but I think it's just a matter of time before the mystery is solved...


----------



## jimzilla

I think this one may have hinted but not conclusive.
I remember you and EndeavourDK were trying to unravel the mysteries.
Thank you Avidfan, take care comrade, James.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello Avidfan I was curious if you think these two dial faces are both considered starburst faces and does the one one on the right have the correct bezel?, thanks.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello Avidfan I was curious if you think these two dial faces are both considered starburst faces and does the one one on the right have the correct bezel?, thanks.


Hello James, yes I would say they are both starburst faces, the Soviet one is perfect  as for the bezel on the other case it's hard to say without a catalogue image but the two bezels I've seen most often on this case are the common dot-dash or the bezel with a red triangle on as on your 1945-95 Victory watch...so I wouldn't worry about it at all


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you very much Avidfan ..... You Da Man.


----------



## primoun

Hi all,
Opinions on this poljot? Not sure about the dial.


----------



## SinanjuStein

primoun said:


> Hi all,
> Opinions on this poljot? Not sure about the dial.


Looks entirely fine.


----------



## primoun

SinanjuStein said:


> Looks entirely fine.


Much appreciated!


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Looks entirely fine.


agree. I wanted to buy it as well and was bargaining... I have a few of these and this is why I did not want to pay market price. Happy that you got it!


----------



## primoun

Odessa200 said:


> agree. I wanted to buy it as well and was bargaining... I have a few of these and this is why I did not want to pay market price. Happy that you got it!


Thanks Odessa! It'll be my first poljot de luxe so I'm excited!


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Strela:




























Crown replaced? Anything else?


----------



## miroman

Ligavesh said:


> Crown replaced? Anything else?


Yes, crown replaced. Serial number on the balance bridge is too low.

Regards, Miro.


----------



## Ligavesh

miroman said:


> Serial number on the balance bridge is too low.


Wait, what does that mean?


----------



## elsoldemayo

The Sekonda dialled 3017 were only introduced in the mid-late 60's and the serial number is early 60's.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Wait, what does that mean?


it means the watch is assembled from available parts. But I guess this is somewhat expected these days.... question is: how much this issue degrades the value of the watch (if the balance is correct but from an earlier watch).


----------



## westbrookorama

Hi folks, new poster only just learning about the wide world of Russian/Soviet watches (and watch collecting in general) - ordered a couple of what appear to be Pobeda ZIM watches for about $40 total off of Ebay from Sovietrarities (who I understand to be a pretty trusted seller). From what I can tell, these are either not legit, or are from close to the end of ZIM's production - info is scarce on the web, so I am interested in digging up any additional details.

Here's the face/movement of the first (from what I understand "Made in Russia" corresponds to post-Soviet breakup):


















and the second (with different hands!):


















The only other info I've been able to find for this style is on this blog, where the owner appears to have original papers for his watch. Would be interested in any other indications of production year, authenticity, etc. The price was great and I think they're lovely pieces regardless - posting mostly out of curiosity!

Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

westbrookorama said:


> Hi folks, new poster only just learning about the wide world of Russian/Soviet watches (and watch collecting in general) - ordered a couple of what appear to be Pobeda ZIM watches for about $40 total off of Ebay from Sovietrarities (who I understand to be a pretty trusted seller). From what I can tell, these are either not legit, or are from close to the end of ZIM's production - info is scarce on the web, so I am interested in digging up any additional details.
> 
> Here's the face/movement of the first (from what I understand "Made in Russia" corresponds to post-Soviet breakup):
> 
> View attachment 15837682
> 
> View attachment 15837684
> 
> 
> and the second (with different hands!):
> 
> View attachment 15837686
> 
> View attachment 15837687
> 
> 
> The only other info I've been able to find for this style is on this blog, where the owner appears to have original papers for his watch. Would be interested in any other indications of production year, authenticity, etc. The price was great and I think they're lovely pieces regardless - posting mostly out of curiosity!
> 
> Thanks!


Welcome! I think the 1st one is an authentic watch. At least the movement is right. Not 100% sure about hands.

2nd one is a collection of parts: movement is from an early Zim (80s) with the replaced balance. Hands are wrong in my view.

overall: not a bad start! Nicely done. Keep searching. Great watches are still available for sale!


----------



## AaParker

Hello, just checking that while the hands on this are correct Rodina hands, they are for a different lumed hours indices model shown second picture from Mr. Oatman's site. Double-checking this is not a correct configuration. Thank you for your thoughts on this. 










From Mr. Oatman:


----------



## N I K O L A I

Greetings, dear Comrades. My quest for a decent Pobeda may be soon over (finally). Fingers crossed. I came across this Pobeda and was wondering if the caliber is original (described as 2603 - should be 2602, so I am confused)...is that correct? I thank you kindly in advance. PS.. Sorry, the dial is not shown here, but is classic 103K from 1MChz.


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Greetings, dear Comrades. My quest for a decent Pobeda may be soon over (finally). Fingers crossed. I came across this Pobeda and was wondering if the caliber is original (described as 2603 - should be 2602, so I am confused)...is that correct? I thank you kindly in advance. PS.. Sorry, the dial is not shown here, but is classic 103K from 1MChz.
> View attachment 15838252


the shown movement is 2602: not shock proofed balance


----------



## SinanjuStein

AaParker said:


> Hello, just checking that while the hands on this are correct Rodina hands, they are for a different lumed hours indices model shown second picture from Mr. Oatman's site. Double-checking this is not a correct configuration. Thank you for your thoughts on this.
> From Mr. Oatman:


Correct hands, just repaired with green/whitish paint which is relatively common thing.

And whether such a combination of hands&dial came out of the factory is a bit beyond me, but i think it's fine.


----------



## AaParker

SinanjuStein said:


> Correct hands, just repaired with green/whitish paint which is relatively common thing.
> 
> And whether such a combination of hands&dial came out of the factory is a bit beyond me, but i think it's fine.


Thank you.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Odessa200 said:


> the shown movement is 2602: not shock proofed balance


Thank you kindly. I assume you saw no red flags here. I will probably go ahead with this one. Thanks, again!


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Thank you kindly. I assume you saw no red flags here. I will probably go ahead with this one. Thanks, again!


Looks ok to me.


----------



## Big_head

Interested in this compass, but not 100% sure if it is the correct movement? Pics on this forum and elsewhere show a slightly different one. Comments appreciated


----------



## Vumbo

Hola Todos,
Been looking to buy either a Raketa Polar or Copernicus. Whichever one decides to show up first.
With the watch below I was wondering if the dial is legit and if the silver housing paired with the black rim would be an original configuration.

I'm especially wondering if the cccp logo right below the hands tells anything about it's legitimacy. That little logo always scares me because it isn't on everything watch available.

Oh and also, what movement should be in this watch?








Thanks alot!


----------



## elsoldemayo

Hands, dial and case all look fine. It should have a 2623.H movement. The logo is the CCCP Quality Mark so nothing to worry about.


----------



## Odessa200

Big_head said:


> Interested in this compass, but not 100% sure if it is the correct movement? Pics on this forum and elsewhere show a slightly different one. Comments appreciated


not correct. This model comes with the NP movement that is a higher precision than HA.


----------



## Kamburov

Big_head said:


> Interested in this compass, but not 100% sure if it is the correct movement? Pics on this forum and elsewhere show a slightly different one. Comments appreciated


What Odessa said, but there are other irregularities about this watch. The case is from a perpetual calendar model and the dial is somewhat strange. The original "made in USSR" is sunburst silver. Maybe this "made in Russia" is original but I wasn't aware of it. Looks original though.
Anyway, this would be pretty enough for me to stay away from this watch.
Ivan


----------



## Big_head

Thanks @Odessa200 and @Kamburov. Your knowledge is incredible 👌 I'm new to all of this, but it's a hugely addictive and interesting world!


----------



## watch22

EndeavourDK said:


> This is a continuation of the "Q&A Expertise thread; Is this watch legit or a franken? Part 2".
> 
> Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a...
> 
> Q&A Expertise thread part 1 can be found here: Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a franken?


Could this possibly be original? I know Zim did produce slightly crazy dials. Roman numeral dial - late 70's or early 80's?


----------



## Big_head

Any opinion on the legitimacy of this Raketa cities. Is this the correct movement stamped SU given the watch face says made in Russia? Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

Big_head said:


> Any opinion on the legitimacy of this Raketa cities. Is this the correct movement stamped SU given the watch face says made in Russia? Thanks!


looks good to me. And it is possible that during 90s the old Soviet movements were used.


----------



## Odessa200

watch22 said:


> Could this possibly be original? I know Zim did produce slightly crazy dials. Roman numeral dial - late 70's or early 80's?


possible. But I am just guessing


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> possible. But I am just guessing


My thoughts exactly. Nothing looks out of of place but the late production Zim Pobeda's are known to sometimes be made from factory remains so you never know.

Whatever floats your boat really.


----------



## Erel7

Is this beautiful vintage "Wostok" a franken watch or a score? I'd like help to identify


----------



## Avidfan

Erel7 said:


> Is this beautiful vintage "Wostok" a franken watch or a score? I'd like help to identify
> View attachment 15847271
> View attachment 15847275


Welcome to the forum 

These are known as Cadets by Vostok collectors, this example was made for export (note the English language dial and caseback) it has a Vostok 2409A movement inside of course, here's an image from the 1990 Vostok catalogue...


----------



## Alfajuj

The seller says that this is from the 1950s, and it appears to be a 2602. Did the Vostok brand exist in the 50's? The picture of the movement obscures the date stamp. Is this legit? And what about the strange bayonet lock case back?


----------



## SinanjuStein

Alfajuj said:


> The seller says that this is from the 1950s, and it appears to be a 2602. Did the Vostok brand exist in the 50's? The picture of the movement obscures the date stamp. Is this legit? And what about the strange bayonet lock case back?


The factory and brand existed, the name Vostok itself was only adopted in early 70's IIRC And it was adopted from the Vostok space program, which only started in 1961 (Vostok 1 being Gagarin's spaceflight)

As far the watch, i think it's supposed to have shorter hour and minute hands but the caseback seems fine.


----------



## Alfajuj

If it's from the 50's, could it be a 2603 Kama? That was a Chistopol brand, and the movement is 17J with a Chistopol hallmark.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Alfajuj said:


> If it's from the 50's, could it be a 2603 Kama? That was a Chistopol brand, and the movement is 17J with a Chistopol hallmark.


The hands seem like they came from the Kama as they fit the same class of movements, since the main difference between the 2602 and 2603 is the shockprotected balance. (Both are standard ChCz made Pobeda style movements)

Still should come with shorter hands as this is the closest catalog picture i could find with a 2602 movement, even if the picture quality isn't the best. And as i've said earlier, it can't be from the 50's as the Boctok name was only adopted in the early 70's.


----------



## Big_head

One final request for the week! This looks good to everything genuine I have found online, what are thoughts on the authenticity of this paketa?! That should do me for the month, I've doing my bit to keep the world economy afloat!


----------



## Odessa200

Big_head said:


> One final request for the week! This looks good to everything genuine I have found online, what are thoughts on the authenticity of this paketa?! That should do me for the month, I've doing my bit to keep the world economy afloat!


looks good!


----------



## Big_head

Odessa200 said:


> looks good!


Thankyou once again!


----------



## Erel7

Does this Vostok look legit? What model is it? It looks a lot like a Seiko Alpinist. Never saw such a vostok.


----------



## JacobC

Franken of the month contender here boys


----------



## Avidfan

Erel7 said:


> Does this Vostok look legit? What model is it? It looks a lot like a Seiko Alpinist. Never saw such a vostok.


It looks like a watch from the Vostok Partner range from about 20 years ago using a Type 21 Komandirskie case as it's base with 2414A movement inside, early Partner watches were not marked as such on the dial.

Vostok have made many such watches over the years sometimes marked Partner / Chistopol / VIP / Century Time on the dial, they're not as widely collected as Amphibia or Komandirskie and there are so many combinations of dial / case / bezel that many don't feature in the available catalogues...


----------



## nambinik

Is this Copernicus legit? I've been trying to get a copernicus with passport. Seems like they are unicorn nowadays lol. In the meantime I found this. Is it legit?


----------



## Odessa200

nambinik said:


> Is this Copernicus legit? I've been trying to get a copernicus with passport. Seems like they are unicorn nowadays lol. In the meantime I found this. Is it legit?


almost. Exterior is fine. Interior: mix of 2 watches. One from early 80s and another is from late 80s or 90s. I would also ask if there is a crack in the crystal around 4:30&#8230;.


----------



## Ligavesh

Erel7 said:


> Does this Vostok look legit? What model is it? It looks a lot like a Seiko Alpinist. Never saw such a vostok.


It's legit, I have a similar model. Let me look for a photo of it...

Edit: Found it


----------



## nambinik

Odessa200 said:


> almost. Exterior is fine. Interior: mix of 2 watches. One from early 80s and another is from late 80s or 90s. I would also ask if there is a crack in the crystal around 4:30&#8230;.


Can you help me identify what the interior parts should be for each version. Also can you direct me to any guide about the types of copernicus that where made, if any such thing exists lol


----------



## Odessa200

nambinik said:


> Can you help me identify what the interior parts should be for each version. Also can you direct me to any guide about the types of copernicus that where made, if any such thing exists lol


Copernicus is a late 80s and then 90s model. The movement during these times was flat with straight edges that was assembled by machines. If you look at your movement you will see the main drive train bridge has a beveled edge&#8230;

what models were made can be see in the available catalogs. This forum has a sticky with all the catalogs. Look at catalogs from the late 80s and after.


----------



## nambinik

Odessa200 said:


> Copernicus is a late 80s and then 90s model. The movement during these times was flat with straight edges that was assembled by machines. If you look at your movement you will see the main drive train bridge has a beveled edge&#8230;
> 
> what models were made can be see in the available catalogs. This forum has a sticky with all the catalogs. Look at catalogs from the late 80s and after.


Thanks. I'm kind of new to watches. Would you be able to point out where the beveled edge is?
Also, I downloaded the watch catalogues and see the the Copernicus comes with a 2609 NP movement. I've seen an NOS on ebay with the passport but it has the 2609 HA movement. Do you think 2609 HA Copernicus watches are frankens?


----------



## Odessa200

nambinik said:


> Thanks. I'm kind of new to watches. Would you be able to point out where the beveled edge is?
> Also, I downloaded the watch catalogues and see the the Copernicus comes with a 2609 NP movement. I've seen an NOS on ebay with the passport but it has the 2609 HA movement. Do you think 2609 HA Copernicus watches are frankens?


here 2 red arrows point to 2 straight bridges. The green arrow points to the beveled bridge that is slanted at the outer edge. all Copernicus are HP. Every HA is a franken one. Especially getting one with passport makes 0 sense: passport will be from the wrong watch and you will just pay premium money for nothing in return. Technically HA and NP are totally identical and NP was just tuned better. For an average use it does not matter what movement you got but for a collection it does.


----------



## nim_nam

Hey can someone help me identify whether this raketa is an original, comparing the condition to the price makes me doubt it. Seems way to sweet of a deal...is it a franken ?


----------



## nambinik

Odessa200 said:


> here 2 red arrows point to 2 straight bridges. The green arrow points to the beveled bridge that is slanted at the outer edge. all Copernicus are HP. Every HA is a franken one. Especially getting one with passport makes 0 sense: passport will be from the wrong watch and you will just pay premium money for nothing in return. Technically HA and NP are totally identical and NP was just tuned better. For an average use it does not matter what movement you got but for a collection it does.
> 
> View attachment 15860604


Thanks a lot. That was very helpful


----------



## Odessa200

nim_nam said:


> Hey can someone help me identify whether this raketa is an original, comparing the condition to the price makes me doubt it. Seems way to sweet of a deal...is it a franken ?


seconds hand is wrong (too short). Personally I would not pay more than 20$. Whatever this is 'sweet' or not for you is hard to say


----------



## nim_nam

Odessa200 said:


> seconds hand is wrong (too short). Personally I would not pay more than 20$. Whatever this is 'sweet' or not for you is hard to say


Thanks man! I don't think ill be getting it then


----------



## Ligavesh

Not exactly a question about authenticity, but asking for expertise regardless: have you ever assembled an old watch only to find out the movement moves when moving the crown - i.e. it's not stable anymore, even though, apparently, every screw is in there, the holder ring is placed properly - nothing out of the ordinary, and yet again, it suddenly moves about where as before disassembling/assembling it it didn't do that?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Not exactly a question about authenticity, but asking for expertise regardless: have you ever assembled an old watch only to find out the movement moves when moving the crown - i.e. it's not stable anymore, even though, apparently, every screw is in there, the holder ring is placed properly - nothing out of the ordinary, and yet again, it suddenly moves about where as before disassembling/assembling it it didn't do that?


yes, happens. Old dirt was holding things together


----------



## cyanide19

Hello Gentlemen,

I have an opportunity to buy this lovely Rossiya:


















Do you see anything suspicious here? I don't think I've ever seen 2609 with this type of ornament on a wheel, but apart from that it would seem fine by me. The crown is wrong as well, but seller stated it explicitly anyway.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> yes, happens. Old dirt was holding things together


What would be a good solution to that? Stick a thin piece of plastick or something between the case and movement ring to keep it from moving about? Could the problem also come from the stem somehow not engaging the movement at the exact point as it used to, allowing to move about?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What would be a good solution to that? Stick a thin piece of plastick or something between the case and movement ring to keep it from moving about? Could the problem also come from the stem somehow not engaging the movement at the exact point as it used to, allowing to move about?


it depends on the watch and how the movement supposed to be held in place. Sometimes something is missing or broken. Sometimes you need to re-shape the case (happens with old watches like Zvezda). Sometimes it is just wrong case or wrong back cover. It is not because of the stem. Show photos. Lets see


----------



## Odessa200

cyanide19 said:


> Hello Gentlemen,
> 
> I have an opportunity to buy this lovely Rossiya:
> 
> View attachment 15865105
> 
> View attachment 15865107
> 
> 
> Do you see anything suspicious here? I don't think I've ever seen 2609 with this type of ornament on a wheel, but apart from that it would seem fine by me. The crown is wrong as well, but seller stated it explicitly anyway.


looks good except the crown


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> it depends on the watch and how the movement supposed to be held in place. Sometimes something is missing or broken. Sometimes you need to re-shape the case (happens with old watches like Zvezda). Sometimes it is just wrong case or wrong back cover. It is not because of the stem. Show photos. Lets see


I'm kinda busy, but I'll send some pics (and more details) as soon as I can, thanks.


----------



## palletwheel

Is this Luch right? It looks like it's made of quality Luch parts but not sure if the chrome case goes with that dial, the dial goes with those hands, while the movement is quite nice but actually goes with anything. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Is this Luch right? It looks like it's made of quality Luch parts but not sure if the chrome case goes with that dial, the dial goes with those hands, while the movement is quite nice but actually goes with anything. Thanks!


no soviet watches have 2 numbers.
Then you can see 2 bridges beveled and 1 stepped. its a collection of parts from at least 3 watches


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> no soviet watches have 2 numbers.
> Then you can see 2 bridges beveled and 1 stepped. its a collection of parts from at least 3 watches
> View attachment 15866430
> View attachment 15866432


Thanks. I thought I was beginning to get the hang of this, but its clear there is a whole other level


----------



## JacobC

Hello friends,

I am establishing the provenance of an allegedly ultra-rare prototype Raketa wristwatch. Could someone please translate the text at 9 o'clock?

Thank you!


----------



## 979greenwich

Limitirovanaja serija (limited series)? My Cyrillic is a bit rusty


----------



## BorutP

JacobC said:


> Could someone please translate the text at 9 o'clock?


ИМИТИРОВАННАЯ СЕРИЯ
written in roman alphabet:
IMITIROVANNAYA SERIYA
common translations for ИМИТИРОВАННАЯ:
Simulate, mimic, imitate.
SERIYA: series.

edit:
If there is hidden Л behind minute hand:
ЛИМИТИРОВАННАЯ SERIYA, than it means as it was said, Limited series.


----------



## JacobC

Perfect thank you both


----------



## cchinh

Hi guys! Just purchased my very first mechanical watch, this (hopefully) Vostok Amphibia. I think it's real, but just wanted to make sure here and ask the experts. I know the band is not original, it came replaced, but does everything else check out? Thanks for your help!!


----------



## EndeavourDK

I still had an unfinished Molnija Pocket watch project and while looking for another nice & cheap 3602/3603 Molnija I stumbled over this one "Slava precision". Sadly there wasn't a picture of the movement, so I wonder how much "Slava" and/or how much "precision" is hidden under the hood? Didn't know either that Slava were putting their stamp on Molnija watches (or the other way around) or is it a kind of hoax?


----------



## Avidfan

cchinh said:


> Hi guys! Just purchased my very first mechanical watch, this (hopefully) Vostok Amphibia. I think it's real, but just wanted to make sure here and ask the experts. I know the band is not original, it came replaced, but does everything else check out? Thanks for your help!!


Welcome to the forum! 

Everything is ok  it's a recent example of a Vostok Amphibia 420288 which is still available new from the usual online sellers...


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> I still had an unfinished Molnija Pocket watch project and while looking for another nice & cheap 3602/3603 Molnija I stumbled over this one "Slava precision". Sadly there wasn't a picture of the movement, so I wonder how much "Slava" and/or how much "precision" is hidden under the hood? Didn't know either that Slava were putting their stamp on Molnija watches (or the other way around) or is it a kind of hoax?
> 
> View attachment 15868561
> 
> 
> View attachment 15868564


2MChZ also made 36xx calibers so under the hood you should see a Molniya movement made by 2MChZ with the balance that has the micro regulator. Like this.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Odessa200 said:


> 2MChZ also made 36xx calibers so under the hood you should see a Molniya movement made by 2MChZ with the balance that has the micro regulator. Like this.


Thanks for your help 

I'm very curious if that would be the case? (watch is in transit) Of course the example show is from 1st quarter 1967 and the watch I bought doesn't look that old.
Did 2MChZ produce these modified movements till the end 80's?

But now I'm also a bit confused who made these Swiss cal.616 Cortébert movements? Reading "Molniya" (Chelyabinsk Watch Factory) it was them or were there more who produced (modified versions) and "sold"/distributed them to Slava?
Or one producer, perhaps producing different versions of the "3602/3603" and they were sold under different brand-names?
Can you please shed some light on this?


----------



## Odessa200

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks for your help
> 
> I'm very curious if that would be the case? (watch is in transit) Of course the example show is from 1st quarter 1967 and the watch I bought doesn't look that old.
> Did 2MChZ produce these modified movements till the end 80's?
> 
> But now I'm also a bit confused who made these Swiss cal.616 Cortébert movements? Reading "Molniya" (Chelyabinsk Watch Factory) it was them or were there more who produced (modified versions) and "sold"/distributed them to Slava?
> Or one producer, perhaps producing different versions of the "3602/3603" and they were sold under different brand-names?
> Can you please shed some light on this?


yes, that was a sample of an early movement.
Read this and you will find many answers! You will see precision watches in this article from the 80s as well. Your watch should look like them.





__





Molnija pocket watches






linuxfocus.org


----------



## EndeavourDK

Thanks for the link ! It has been many years since I read it and I totally forgot how much info is in it. So, according to the author I most likely bought a "precision-scam" ?. For $50 incl.shipping one can't go really wrong and I like the fact that it has a "Slava" dial. Additionally, the word "precision" may add some precision to the watch, even if it was just imaginary ?
I'll give it a good service and will get it to run pretty "precise", after all this movement was at some point good enough for Rolex and therefor it's good enough for me.

In the same deal, for $10 less, I picked up another Molnija with a good looking (ie: fairly undisturbed) Soviet SU 3603 movement ?



















I prefer movements which aren't tinkered to bits.

So, all-in-all; I'm "precisely" happy


----------



## cchinh

Avidfan said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Everything is ok  it's a recent example of a Vostok Amphibia 420288 which is still available new from the usual online sellers...


Thank you so much!!


----------



## jimzilla

EndeavourDK said:


> Thanks for the link ! It has been many years since I read it and I totally forgot how much info is in it. So, according to the author I most likely bought a "precision-scam" ?. For $50 incl.shipping one can't go really wrong and I like the fact that it has a "Slava" dial. Additionally, the word "precision" may add some precision to the watch, even if it was just imaginary ?
> I'll give it a good service and will get it to run pretty "precise", after all this movement was at some point good enough for Rolex and therefor it's good enough for me.
> 
> In the same deal, for $10 less, I picked up another Molnija with a good looking (ie: fairly undisturbed) Soviet SU 3603 movement ?
> 
> View attachment 15869302
> 
> 
> View attachment 15869303
> 
> 
> I prefer movements which aren't tinkered to bits.
> 
> So, all-in-all; I'm "precisely" happy


Hello Roland I hope you are doing well sir and it is nice to see you here and there on the f-10
best regards, James.


----------



## Big_head

Not sure if this is the right spot, but a question about original straps for the Elektronika 1 'terminator' watches. Are both of these straps authentic, just different years or....... Pictures online commonly show these two types.

Thanks


----------



## Chascomm

EndeavourDK said:


> I still had an unfinished Molnija Pocket watch project and while looking for another nice & cheap 3602/3603 Molnija I stumbled over this one "Slava precision". Sadly there wasn't a picture of the movement, so I wonder how much "Slava" and/or how much "precision" is hidden under the hood? Didn't know either that Slava were putting their stamp on Molnija watches (or the other way around) or is it a kind of hoax?
> 
> View attachment 15868561
> 
> 
> View attachment 15868564


Molnija made these watches for so many foreign companies. I'd take a punt on this one being made for the French licensee of the 'Slava' brand who sourced their products from various Soviet makers such as Raketa and Poljot. In spite of its branding, this watch might not have any connection to the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Chascomm said:


> Molnija made these watches for so many foreign companies. I'd take a punt on this one being made for the French licensee of the 'Slava' brand who sourced their products from various Soviet makers such as Raketa and Poljot. In spite of its branding, this watch might not have any connection to the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory.


That's a very interesting comment ! The watch is still in transit (post takes ages these days), but once received, would there be anything in the inside or the outside which could reveal your point?


----------



## Chascomm

EndeavourDK said:


> That's a very interesting comment ! The watch is still in transit (post takes ages these days), but once received, would there be anything in the inside or the outside which could reveal your point?


2nd Moscow Watch Factory stopped making this kind of movement long before Molnija started making this dial and Case design (originally for K. Serkisoff, Istanbul, to supply to the Turkish Railways), so the movement should be marked the same as any late-soviet Molnija.

The other thing we could search for would be other instances of this cursive Roman script for the Slava brand. I don't recall seeing it on any 2nd Moscow Watch Factory products.

---edit---

Just found something similar in this thread:








Is it a real Raketa Big Zero?


All in title. I have never seen such a dial with Механизм СССР . Please experts could tell me if it's real or fake ? Many thanks for help




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## EndeavourDK

A very interesting thread; thank you very much for that !

This pocket-watch seems to get more interesting by the minute 🙂
I'm now very curious what movement sits inside !
If made in France, it would also be interesting to know if these "Slava precision" were produced by the millions or are rather less common?
And unlike the watch in thread, were "soviet-mechanism" was printed on the dial and therefor leaving the door open to a France "connection", this P-W dial clearly says " Made in USSR". Of course, what isn't said is what "precisly" was made in the USSR ......
Anyways, I'm very much looking forward receiving the watch and try to find out more ....... 🤗


----------



## bobby54

Hello kamarades
Wha5 do you think about that ?
raketa big zeo peterhof
I ve asked to obtain a picture of the movement...
Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

bobby54 said:


> Hello kamarades
> Wha5 do you think about that ?
> raketa big zeo peterhof
> I ve asked to obtain a picture of the movement...
> Thanks


watch is good. Papers fake: i do not think 511905 corresponds to this dial design (511 is right. 905 is not). And the box is much older.


----------



## Ligavesh

Quick question - probably answered 100 times, but anyway - does the new 2409A movement fit the old 2409 Amphibias from the '80s - early '90s?


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> Quick question - probably answered 100 times, but anyway - does the new 2409A movement fit the old 2409 Amphibias from the '80s - early '90s?


The only thing that matters is the movement bridge edges, most of the older soviet ones have beveled edges to fit the older thinner dress~casual watches while a lot of the Amphibas can fit whatever. Basically it depends on what watch you're using.

I don't remember is how the spacer fits (older metal vs newer plastic) but they aren't hard to come by.


----------



## Ligavesh

SinanjuStein said:


> The only thing that matters is the movement bridge edges, most of the older soviet ones have beveled edges to fit the older thinner dress~casual watches while a lot of the Amphibas can fit whatever. Basically it depends on what watch you're using.
> 
> I don't remember is how the spacer fits (older metal vs newer plastic) but they aren't hard to come by.


Basically I have a nice '80s 2409 Amphibia with a broken down movement, and a couple of new 2409s I've bought cause I was gonna mod something (yeah right, maybe when I retire in 30 years)... So I thought of replacing the broken movement with a new modern one - well ,a friend would mostly do the replacing, he's got experience in that sort of stuff...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Also, which one of these watches has
> 
> Basically I have a nice '80s 2409 Amphibia with a broken down movement, and a couple of new 2409s I've bought cause I was gonna mod something (yeah right, maybe when I retire in 30 years)... So I thought of replacing the broken movement with a new modern one - well ,a friend would mostly do the replacing, he's got experience in that sort of stuff...


should fit.


----------



## EndeavourDK

Well the "Slava Precision" didn't house that much of a precision-piece. It seems that our comrade Chascomm had a point with the most likely France connection or perhaps the "Slava precision" is just the French companies name printed on the dial  (Slava Précision S.a.)
Nonetheless; it houses a seemingly pretty untouched SU3602 with the Molniya symbol (clock) stamped in the main-plate, so not all is lost ....
Remaining are the questions; what about this "Made in USSR" printed on the dial ? ?
Common piece and/or worth hanging on to?


----------



## mackaw

Been buying a few vintage soviet watches lately. Just wondering how legit these are?


----------



## Ligavesh

mackaw said:


> Been buying a few vintage soviet watches lately. Just wondering how legit these are?
> View attachment 15875683
> View attachment 15875684
> 
> 
> View attachment 15875686
> View attachment 15875689


I think they're all legit - but Ive been fooled more than once, let's see what the experts say...


----------



## mackaw

Ligavesh said:


> I think they're all legit - but Ive been fooled more than once, let's see what the experts say...


Yeah, it's really just out of curiosity. I like the designs and am going to wear them regardless, and it is not like I invested a lot of money in them, but it is interesting to know if they are originals or frankens. 
Would also be interested in what year they are from. My guess would be that they are mostly from the 80's.


----------



## Ligavesh

mackaw said:


> Yeah, it's really just out of curiosity. I like the designs and am going to wear them regardless, and it is not like I invested a lot of money in them, but it is interesting to know if they are originals or frankens.
> Would also be interested in what year they are from. My guess would be that they are mostly from the 80's.


I'm not at home, so I can't look throught the catalogues, but I think they are all from the 80s, appart from the Poljot - which is most likely not to be genuine, btw. Red seconds hand is probably not legit on it.


----------



## Ligavesh

mackaw said:


> Yeah, it's really just out of curiosity. I like the designs and am going to wear them regardless, and it is not like I invested a lot of money in them, but it is interesting to know if they are originals or frankens.
> Would also be interested in what year they are from. My guess would be that they are mostly from the 80's.


PS. Actually that square Raketa could be from the 60s, don't know why I always thought it was a newer model - I actually have it, too.

Here, look here for your watches, it's a pretty big collection (although it lacks a few models):






Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection


Discover Soviet watches from the USSR and beyond.




mroatman.wixsite.com





or check the catalogues...


----------



## elsoldemayo

The Poljot is the only one of those that is regularly faked. Would need much higher resolution pics and movement pics to be sure of originality.


----------



## mackaw

Ligavesh said:


> PS. Actually that square Raketa could be from the 60s, don't know why I always thought it was a newer model - I actually have it, too.
> 
> Here, look here for your watches, it's a pretty big collection (although it lacks a few models):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection
> 
> 
> Discover Soviet watches from the USSR and beyond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or check the catalogues...


Thanks! Yeah, it has that 60's vibe at least.


----------



## mackaw

elsoldemayo said:


> The Poljot is the only one of those that is regularly faked. Would need much higher resolution pics and movement pics to be sure of originality.


Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a fake, given it's popularity and that it is in really good shape. Like Ligavesh pointed out, that red second hand also seems kinda off.


----------



## Odessa200

mackaw said:


> Been buying a few vintage soviet watches lately. Just wondering how legit these are?
> View attachment 15875683
> View attachment 15875684
> 
> 
> View attachment 15875686
> View attachment 15875689


based on what is shown:
Poljot has a repainted seconds hand. Minor issue. 
raketa has golden hands in chromed case: not right
The rest is Ok.


----------



## mackaw

Odessa200 said:


> based on what is shown:
> Poljot has a repainted seconds hand. Minor issue.
> raketa has golden hands in chromed case: not right
> The rest is Ok.


Thanks for the answer! Never noticed the golden hands about the Raketa... Now that you mentioned it, it looks really weird, and should have been obvious.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> raketa has golden hands in chromed case: not right


was thinking about that, whether it could be intentional, given how many different UFOs there are out there... anyway, shouldn't be too hard to find silver hands to change those, seen many Raketas in bad shape (and cheap) with still good silver hands


----------



## bobby54

Odessa200 said:


> watch is good. Papers fake: i do not think 511905 corresponds to this dial design (511 is right. 905 is not). And the box is much older.


I've recieved the picture of the movement. Ist it ok too ?
Thanks


----------



## primoun

bobby54 said:


> I've recieved the picture of the movement. Ist it ok too ?
> Thanks
> View attachment 15876005


Looks good to me.


----------



## awkwardalex

Hey, I am looking for Raketa Copernicus and found a couple offers. Would you say that any of them are legit?


----------



## Odessa200

awkwardalex said:


> Hey, I am looking for Raketa Copernicus and found a couple offers. Would you say that any of them are legit?
> View attachment 15879459
> 
> View attachment 15879462


Welcome. What you have shown looks legit.


----------



## palletwheel

Found this Kirovskie that I thought looked good (unless as often the case I missed something), my only question being the crown / stem / movement assembly is crooked and would appreciate thoughts. Wrong crown, bad servicing?


----------



## JacobC

palletwheel said:


> Found this Kirovskie that I thought looked good (unless as often the case I missed something), my only question being the crown / stem / movement assembly is crooked and would appreciate thoughts. Wrong crown, bad servicing?


I hope that's real because that's a stunning model


----------



## MSC78

Hi - I've been using this forum for a while to help me identify watches, so thanks for all the knowledge, but first time posting. I wonder if one of the more knowledgable members here might be able to check my homework for me - I'm looking to buy a white-dial Sturmanskie chrono, and have been doing my research. As far as I can tell - this one looks quite legit?


Split reset lever & mixed-colour chrono wheels place the movement in the early-mid 80s
Case looks like stainless steel
Hands and dial look right

Am I missing anything? Thanks advance!


----------



## MattBrace

MSC78 said:


> Hi - I've been using this forum for a while to help me identify watches, so thanks for all the knowledge, but first time posting. I wonder if one of the more knowledgable members here might be able to check my homework for me - I'm looking to buy a white-dial Sturmanskie chrono, and have been doing my research. As far as I can tell - this one looks quite legit?
> 
> 
> Split reset lever & mixed-colour chrono wheels place the movement in the early-mid 80s
> Case looks like stainless steel
> Hands and dial look right
> 
> Am I missing anything? Thanks advance!
> View attachment 15883671
> View attachment 15883672


Hi MSC78,

welcome to the F10 forum, the example is early 80's with some replacement parts to the movement, the hour and minute hands are incorrect as they should be blued not silver coloured, the minute counting hand (small red hand) is a modern replacement. The sub dial seconds hand is a later one. Chrono sweep hand is correct. The case looks plated not Stainless and has modern replacement pushers (buttons).

Hope that helps.
Cheers...


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Found this Kirovskie that I thought looked good (unless as often the case I missed something), my only question being the crown / stem / movement assembly is crooked and would appreciate thoughts. Wrong crown, bad servicing?


I see it as well. Sharp eye. Good catch. Potentially the stem is bent. If the seller can extract the stem and show it to you it would be great. If not, and if the price is right: get it. Finding a donor for the stem and crown is not that hard&#8230;


----------



## MSC78

MattBrace said:


> Hi MSC78,
> 
> welcome to the F10 forum, the example is early 80's with some replacement parts to the movement, the hour and minute hands are incorrect as they should be blued not silver coloured, the minute counting hand (small red hand) is a modern replacement. The sub dial seconds hand is a later one. Chrono sweep hand is correct. The case looks plated not Stainless and has modern replacement pushers (buttons).
> 
> Hope that helps.
> Cheers...


Many thanks for this - much appreciated. I hadn't spotted the case. I can live with the odd repair or new parts, but I'd like the case, dial and movement to match properly... I'll keep looking!


----------



## MSC78

Are there any tricks to spotting chrome vs steel cases? I'm finding it tricky just from photos. This one looks like steel to me though - and dial and date seem to be early/mid 80s without too much in the way of replacement parts; and the main hands seem original (though a bit tatty) to my untrained eye.

Any feedback from the experts on here would be gratefully received again!


----------



## SinanjuStein

MSC78 said:


> Are there any tricks to spotting chrome vs steel cases? I'm finding it tricky just from photos. This one looks like steel to me though - and dial and date seem to be early/mid 80s without too much in the way of replacement parts; and the main hands seem original (though a bit tatty) to my untrained eye.
> 
> Any feedback from the experts on here would be gratefully received again!


While, it's kinda hard for me to discern from those pictures i'll give a tip.

Under good lighting the plated basemetal case is shinier and appears kinda in between faux chrome plastic and actual chrome (so to say). One thing i should note, there's a few of the plated cases that have much more pronounced radial brushing on the top of the case in comparison to the high polish lugs like mine does. While the steel case has a more uniform finish in between the lugs and top of the case.










(Apologies on the slightly roached case as this little fella needs a new one and to clean up the hour&minute hand surfaces. Movement is rock solid though)


----------



## MattBrace

MSC78 said:


> Are there any tricks to spotting chrome vs steel cases? I'm finding it tricky just from photos. This one looks like steel to me though - and dial and date seem to be early/mid 80s without too much in the way of replacement parts; and the main hands seem original (though a bit tatty) to my untrained eye.
> 
> Any feedback from the experts on here would be gratefully received again!
> View attachment 15885481
> View attachment 15885483


The case is Stainless steel and correct, aside from the corroded hands it not a bad example and it's a much rarer type as it has a red sub dial, known as a (Redeye).

Cheers...


----------



## MSC78

Thank you both *SinanjuStein *and* MattBrace *for the help - really useful advice, I've gone for the watch above and feel better having run it past you guys. Unfortunately I feel like I've fallen down a Russian Watch wormhole, so I'm sure I'll be back for future purchases...


----------



## SinanjuStein

Honestly, i'm never entirely sure with Slava's.


















Several small differences despite both being marked as dark-blueish dials. Lower has the extra numerical indicator for the Day. So, i'm guessing it's either a mishmash of both or is it correct?


----------



## xsagasta

MSC78 said:


> Are there any tricks to spotting chrome vs steel cases? I'm finding it tricky just from photos. This one looks like steel to me though - and dial and date seem to be early/mid 80s without too much in the way of replacement parts; and the main hands seem original (though a bit tatty) to my untrained eye.
> 
> Any feedback from the experts on here would be gratefully received again!
> View attachment 15885481
> View attachment 15885483


Congratulations @MSC78 , I had saved that exact piece to my favourites myself.
I hesitated for too long and finally someone faster appeared... hahaha!
I think you got a beautiful rare example.


----------



## JSINGJ

Hi everyone,

I have just purchased a Raketa Polar on ebay and while its a bit late, I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

The seller was a guy called Artur who has quite a few watches and is listed at Artyric(link to page below). He had quite a few photos listed however with the polar I have seen so many different face markings, its difficult to know what is real. 
Would you guys be able to shine some light on whether this is genuine? 
Thanks, 
JJ. 
*








artyric on eBay


Follow artyric on eBay. Buying, Selling, Collecting on eBay has never been more exciting!



www.ebay.co.uk

































*


----------



## elsoldemayo

JSINGJ said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have just purchased a Raketa Polar on ebay and while its a bit late, I wanted to get your thoughts on it.
> 
> The seller was a guy called Artur who has quite a few watches and is listed at Artyric(link to page below). He had quite a few photos listed however with the polar I have seen so many different face markings, its difficult to know what is real.
> Would you guys be able to shine some light on whether this is genuine?
> Thanks,
> JJ.


Crystal has been replaced, but other than that it looks good.


----------



## JSINGJ

elsoldemayo said:


> Crystal has been replaced, but other than that it looks good.


Thanks. Been wanting one for a while - appreciate the info!


----------



## GaryStaple

G’day all,

Does anyone have experience dealing with Andrew at watch-shop.zt??
He describes most of his items on eBay as being in the “original factory version”, but I’ve spotted a couple of Frankens (among the Poljots at least)...

Thx 🙏🏼


----------



## Odessa200

GaryStaple said:


> G'day all,
> 
> Does anyone have experience dealing with Andrew at watch-shop.zt??
> He describes most of his items on eBay as being in the "original factory version", but I've spotted a couple of Frankens (among the Poljots at least)...
> 
> Thx ??


I agree. Most of his watches are legit. Some have a replaced fake dials but not many. The main turn off for me is his prices. He prices all at the higher end of the range. That is his right of course but do not look for a good deal in his lots.


----------



## Ligavesh

Question: why are some Komandirskies named as "Seargent's" or "сержантскиe"? Are those legit? is it the same as "Generalskie"?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Question: why are some Komandirskies named as "Seargent's" or "сержантскиe"? Are those legit? is it the same as "Generalskie"?


legit. Why? To boost sales. Marketing!
Cheers


----------



## yekaterinburg

Hi guys

Curious if this looks original or not

Best wishes

Joe
















Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## elsoldemayo

yekaterinburg said:


> Hi guys
> 
> Curious if this looks original or not
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Joe


Looks fine although I would like to see a better resolution pic of the second hand to be sure.


----------



## yekaterinburg

elsoldemayo said:


> Looks fine although I would like to see a better resolution pic of the second hand to be sure.


Just updated with better photos 

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Question: why are some Komandirskies named as "Seargent's" or "сержантскиe"? Are those legit? is it the same as "Generalskie"?


This is the only type of Serjantskie I know of, a Komandirskie in everything but name...


----------



## Bezelworld

"VOSTOK - KOMANDIRSKIE" 2414
Made in the USSR in the 1980's at the Chistopol watch factory "VOSTOK".

_Or is it?_


----------



## Avidfan

Bezelworld said:


> "VOSTOK - KOMANDIRSKIE" 2414
> Made in the USSR in the 1980's at the Chistopol watch factory "VOSTOK".
> 
> _Or is it?_


The bezel isn't correct for a Soviet Komandirskie and neither is the domed crown correct (IMHO) for a 1980's 341226, the rest is ok, here's a catalogue image from 1990...


----------



## Bezelworld

@Avidfan Awesome and quick reply, thank you


----------



## Avidfan

Bezelworld said:


> @Avidfan Awesome and quick reply, thank you


Here's another catalogue image from around the same time with the Komandirskie branding a little lower on the dial exactly like the one you show (there are often small differences on Vostok dials as they evolve...)


----------



## elsoldemayo

yekaterinburg said:


> Just updated with better photos
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


I think the second hand is replaced. It seems a little short, should extend to the minute indices.


----------



## Odessa200

yekaterinburg said:


> Just updated with better photos
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


real. The seconds hand has a broken off tip


----------



## yekaterinburg

Thanks both! The search continues!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ligavesh

Is this combination of case and dial legit? Haven't seen it before. Also, the crown looks too small?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Is this combination of case and dial legit? Haven't seen it before. Also, the crown looks too small?
> 
> View attachment 15889769
> 
> 
> View attachment 15889770


This is a tough one. This is the Volcano case. I do not recall if dial was one of the standard configurations. Did you search the catalogs?


----------



## jimzilla

Hello all, I am looking to have a watch authenticated be our experts. Thank you in advance for your time and effort,
best regards James.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello all, I am looking to have a watch authenticated be our experts. Thank you in advance for your time and effort,
> best regards James.


Jim, the orange "arcs" are a little faded on the dial but everything else is ok from the outside including the passport  when you can look inside make sure it's complete with it's anti-magnetic shield and has a copper stem on the crimped crown.

I guess you've seen the catalogue image but here it is anyway...(the black acrylic bezel is just a manufacturers variant)


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> This is a tough one. This is the Volcano case. I do not recall if dial was one of the standard configurations. Did you search the catalogs?


I didn't find it, but maybe I didn't look thoroughly enough, I check it out again.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I didn't find it, but maybe I didn't look thoroughly enough, I check it out again.


actually it is not that hard: the dial is visibly smaller than it should be. I call a fake!


----------



## Bezelworld

"Soviet USSR Russian watch RAKETA 2628H 80's ORIGINAL. The watch is new, not used."

Is this really all original from the USSR days?


----------



## Odessa200

Bezelworld said:


> "Soviet USSR Russian watch RAKETA 2628H 80's ORIGINAL. The watch is new, not used."
> 
> Is this really all original from the USSR days?


yes. Are you surprised?


----------



## Bezelworld

Odessa200 said:


> yes. Are you surprised?


LOL I am. It's in great condition isn't it? Or are there just plenty of these 30+ year old watches floating around that have almost never been worn?

I think the dial is beautiful and these pieces are so interesting. I genuinely have trouble comprehending how they don't sell for more considering how hot the vintage market is right now.


----------



## Odessa200

Bezelworld said:


> LOL I am. It's in great condition isn't it? Or are there just plenty of these 30+ year old watches floating around that have almost never been worn?
> 
> I think the dial is beautiful and these pieces are so interesting. I genuinely have trouble comprehending how they don't sell for more considering how hot the vintage market is right now.


not that many but enough. Take a look at my Instagram 
They sell for so little because most people feel uncomfortable stepping outside of the norm. And the norm is NOT to wear Soviet watches.


----------



## jkoj

Long time lurker here, finally found a luch i like and created a profile to ask your opinions. I compared with the catalogue posted by another user and it seems legit - any advice would be much appreciated.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Fake dial, logo is much too thick, indices are too wide. Also wrong hands, again much to wide for this model.


----------



## Odessa200

elsoldemayo said:


> Fake dial, logo is much too thick, indices are too wide. Also wrong hands, again much to wide for this model.


agree. And a later than needed movement. Avoid this watch


----------



## palletwheel

This small size Big Zero has a movement that apparently has no markings, but if you highly magnify the photo I think one can barely make out the traces of the Raketa quality mark. There may be other subtle things going on here too. Opinions as always very much appreciated.


----------



## SinanjuStein

palletwheel said:


> This small size Big Zero has a movement that apparently has no markings, but if you highly magnify the photo I think one can barely make out the traces of the Raketa quality mark. There may be other subtle things going on here too. Opinions as always very much appreciated.


While big zero's aren't exactly my area of expertise, i think that's the wrong case for a big Zero. (Or at least not the standard)

Also, that little bit of gunked up oil on the crown wheel doesn't bode well either.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> This small size Big Zero has a movement that apparently has no markings, but if you highly magnify the photo I think one can barely make out the traces of the Raketa quality mark. There may be other subtle things going on here too. Opinions as always very much appreciated.


I think this is all good. The movement does not have the caliber but this is a transition watch&#8230; I thing this is just fine


----------



## palletwheel

SinanjuStein said:


> While big zero's aren't exactly my area of expertise, i think that's the wrong case for a big Zero. (Or at least not the standard)
> 
> Also, that little bit of gunked up oil on the crown wheel doesn't bode well either.


This is actually a small size round case style. Slightly rare if I'm not mistaken, and I've wanted one for quite awhile. The dial is slightly tweaked, with pointed triangles and more rounded indices as compared to the cushion case. But these are tough and you can always miss something. So I very much appreciate your and @Odessa200 feedback. What really threw me though was the unmarked movement. I was also thinking it was a transition watch but wasn't really sure. Thanks @Odessa200 for that! It's kind of an amazing artifact, you can really see the confusion of the era play out in it. Raketa took the time to remove the SU marking from the movement, which makes sense, but they also strangely removed the calibre information too, as if the country change would somehow mean you don't know the calibre number too! But for all that no one was going to waste a good stock dial regardless of what was printed on it! Please correct me if I've overreached on my interpretation here.

As to how well it will run


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> This is actually a small size round case style. Slightly rare if I'm not mistaken, and I've wanted one for quite awhile. The dial is slightly tweaked, with pointed triangles and more rounded indices as compared to the cushion case. But these are tough and you can always miss something. So I very much appreciate your and @Odessa200 feedback. What really threw me though was the unmarked movement. I was also thinking it was a transition watch but wasn't really sure. Thanks @Odessa200 for that! It's kind of an amazing artifact, you can really see the confusion of the era play out in it. Raketa took the time to remove the SU marking from the movement, which makes sense, but they also strangely removed the calibre information too, as if the country change would somehow mean you don't know the calibre number too! But for all that no one was going to waste a good stock dial regardless of what was printed on it! Please correct me if I've overreached on my interpretation here.
> 
> As to how well it will run


the removal of the caliber was just cost cutting. Every operation adds to the cost. And you need to have someone to do it. During that time people were abandoning their jobs (that struggled to pay) in favor of taking a short trip to Turkey, buy some merchandise, bring it back in a few bags and sell on the street.

aside from that, finding a ratchet wheel with the stamp is not that hard but I would leave it as os. Nice watch. I do not have it but I suspect it may be better than the more traditional Zero. At least I like this shape better.


----------



## Ligavesh

I have it; it looks different (than the 'original' Big Zero) and very nice on the wrist.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> the removal of the caliber was just cost cutting. Every operation adds to the cost. And you need to have someone to do it. During that time people were abandoning their jobs (that struggled to pay) in favor of taking a short trip to Turkey, buy some merchandise, bring it back in a few bags and sell on the street.
> 
> aside from that, finding a ratchet wheel with the stamp is not that hard but I would leave it as os. Nice watch. I do not have it but I suspect it may be better than the more traditional Zero. At least I like this shape better.


You understand now you are on the hook for writing that book on Soviet watch history right? Otherwise well meaning people like me will continue to spout nonsense and muck everything up  Still an interesting artifact, to think money was so tight that even stamping a calibre number was too much. I agree, I would not change a thing on it, other than to maintain it.


----------



## Mir Lahiji

Dear all,

Long time lurker here, finally posting to ask for some advice concerning a watch I just stumbled upon. The watch is advertise as a Soviet diver, not functioning. It seems to me that it is, or would like to be, a Zlatoust. Any evident red flags, originality wise? The price is quite low, but regardless of that, I don't want to buy a fake. I would also like to learn more about this watch. Could anyone please suggest some resources, considering that I'm as new as they come when it comes to Soviet-era divers? Thank you, and apologies for the low-quality pictures--it's all I have for now...


----------



## dutchassasin

Mir Lahiji said:


> Dear all,
> 
> Long time lurker here, finally posting to ask for some advice concerning a watch I just stumbled upon. The watch is advertise as a Soviet diver, not functioning. It seems to me that it is, or would like to be, a Zlatoust. Any evident red flags, originality wise? The price is quite low, but regardless of that, I don't want to buy a fake. I would also like to learn more about this watch.


its a tourist fake :/ , a genuine one doesnt have a secondshand, grille or elaborate back.


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> its a tourist fake :/ , a genuine one doesnt have a secondshand, grille or elaborate back.


of course agree with this.
You can buy a brand new watch like this for about 200$. With papers. But of course you need to understand that you are buying a souvenir. Not a true diver watch.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello Everyone! I'm new here and I'm so glad I discovered this page. I'm new to collecting Soviet watches and I had my eye on this Sturmanskie Gagarin but I know they're commonly faked. It's been relumed but the parts look too new to me. Is it really from 1951? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello Everyone! I'm new here and I'm so glad I discovered this page. I'm new to collecting Soviet watches and I had my eye on this Sturmanskie Gagarin but I know they're commonly faked. It's been relumed but the parts look too new to me. Is it really from 1951? Thanks in advance!
> View attachment 15898262
> View attachment 15898258
> View attachment 15898260


good example! Hands are relumed. Dial is original and radioactive and has some fingerprints. Balance is replaced. Other than that all is good.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> I have it; it looks different (than the 'original' Big Zero) and very nice on the wrist.


That indeed looks nice, didn't know these slim lug Big zero's were a thing.

It seemed more like the other style of Raketa cases, like the Raketa "Jeans" style watches.


----------



## Ligavesh

SinanjuStein said:


> That indeed looks nice, didn't know these slim lug Big zero's were a thing.
> 
> It seemed more like the other style of Raketa cases, like the Raketa "Jeans" style watches.


Yeah, I didn't know about them too, I thoight they were frankens, but then I read that article on Big Zeroes that has been linked here a few times...

Btw, does anyone know anything about this weird 'compressor style' Raketa:

















???

I got from local classifieds relatively cheaply - given that the case looks mint, I thought it was just some rare model - the surprise came when I wound it up; instead of working 'normaly', it was running as a 24h watch - although the dial clearly isn't a 24h dial. And looking at the movement:










A 2623 H movent with a Raketa and SU stamp on it?! Also, the hands are 'hollow', no lume or paint on them... Does anyone know what kind of a Frankestein this watch is? I could probably put a 2609 HA movement in and it would probably work 'normal', but was that the original movement? Is the dial the original? The hands?

PS. Check out how sloppily that minute bezel has been made - between 15 and 45 min. the markings don't match at all with the ones on the dial!


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Yeah, I didn't know about them too, I thoight they were frankens, but then I read that article on Big Zeroes that has been linked here a few times...
> 
> Btw, does anyone know anything about this weird 'compressor style' Raketa:
> 
> View attachment 15899542
> 
> 
> View attachment 15899543
> ???
> 
> I got from local classifieds relatively cheaply - given that the case looks mint, I thought it was just some rare model - the surprise came when I wound it up; instead of working 'normaly', it was running as a 24h watch - although the dial clearly isn't a 24h dial. And looking at the movement:
> 
> View attachment 15899546
> 
> 
> A 2623 H movent with a Raketa and SU stamp on it?! Also, the hands are 'hollow', no lume or paint on them... Does anyone know what kind of a Frankestein this watch is? I could probably put a 2609 HA movement in and it would probably work 'normal', but was that the original movement? Is the dial the original? The hands?
> 
> PS. Check out how sloppily that minute bezel has been made - between 15 and 45 min. the markings don't match at all with the ones on the dial!


You need correct dial and you will have a very nice Raketa!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> You need correct dial and you will have a very nice Raketa!
> View attachment 15899759


Only that ? Do they, perchance, sell it on meshok? ?

I honestly didn't even check the catalogues cause I didn't think I'd find it there... Weird that the case and everything is in mint condition - but the dial is missing???


----------



## JacobC

First time I'm seeing modern parts on a fake Raketa. They've taken the hands from a modern Avant-Garde and put them in an old watch.

MINT russian RAKETA Copernic watch Uncommon dial & hands *SERVICED* | eBay

Keep this in mind if you see these parts elsewhere.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Only that ? Do they, perchance, sell it on meshok? ?
> 
> I honestly didn't even check the catalogues cause I didn't think I'd find it there... Weird that the case and everything is in mint condition - but the dial is missing???


The watch is assembled from whatever parts the guy had&#8230;


----------



## Odessa200

JacobC said:


> First time I'm seeing modern parts on a fake Raketa. They've taken the hands from a modern Avant-Garde and put them in an old watch.
> 
> MINT russian RAKETA Copernic watch Uncommon dial & hands _SERVICED_ | eBay
> 
> Keep this in mind if you see these parts elsewhere.


Yea. Saw it is well. Does this mean the parts are 'borrowed' from the factory like during the old times?


----------



## Tianlung4028

Thanks for the help with the Gagarin. Would you mind taking a look at this Type 1? The date stamp says 3-41. There is a stamp for the First State Watch Factory on the dial but none on the movement itself. Could this be a Zlatoust construction?
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## JacobC

Odessa200 said:


> Yea. Saw it is well. Does this mean the parts are 'borrowed' from the factory like during the old times?


I have immediately raised an inquest at the factory. Will update.


----------



## JacobC

Odessa200 said:


> Yea. Saw it is well. Does this mean the parts are 'borrowed' from the factory like during the old times?


I also sent an email to the seller and basically told him we both know it's not a 1990's watch and I want to know where he got the hands from. Maybe being aggressive will promote a response.


----------



## JacobC

Odessa200 said:


> Yea. Saw it is well. Does this mean the parts are 'borrowed' from the factory like during the old times?


Can you confirm for me that no similar designs were used in the 90's? I need to eliminate the possibility the triangle is an old part. It still may be a homemade part. I have some doubts as to the size and I'm doing image comparison and analysis.


----------



## JacobC

JacobC said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> I am establishing the provenance of an allegedly ultra-rare prototype Raketa wristwatch. Could someone please translate the text at 9 o'clock?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 15866819


Update:
This watch IS LEGIT. This was a 5-piece production series test for PVD coating and the Copernic parts assembly. These pieces were sold exclusively at the Moscow boutique. The Reference# is W05-16-10-S208.


----------



## nambinik

Hi, Can you guys help me to see whether this Starmunskie and Strela are real? From my novice eyes it looks good to me. What do you guys say?


----------



## Faulkener

Would love someones opinion on this Christopol Sputnik, the general age looks about right to me but I've never seen those blue dials before- I'm very new with USSR watches so it could very well be all fake 😅


----------



## Odessa200

Faulkener said:


> Would love someones opinion on this Christopol Sputnik, the general age looks about right to me but I've never seen those blue dials before- I'm very new with USSR watches so it could very well be all fake 😅
> View attachment 15903311
> 
> View attachment 15903312
> 
> View attachment 15903313


nice one. These hands came with the dial that has the blue hour numbers. Does the dial look like faded blue or golden numbers. Faded blue would be corrected. Hands are repainted. Crown replaced for a new one.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Thanks for the help regarding the Gagarin. Can you give me an opinion on this Type 1? The date stamp says 3-41 and the dial has the stamp for the FSWF but there's no stamp on the movement. Is this a Zlatoust? Thanks in advance!
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## SinanjuStein

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thanks for the help regarding the Gagarin. Can you give me an opinion on this Type 1? The date stamp says 3-41 and the dial has the stamp for the FSWF but there's no stamp on the movement. Is this a Zlatoust? Thanks in advance!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I'm going on a bit of a historical tangent here, but 3-41 is about the same time as the 1st MChz was evacuated and the machinery became part of Zlatoust factory. Their production didn't really start until late 42 and examples from that year are _very_ rare. (1944~45 are the more common Zlatoust wartime production Type-1's)

Movement does look like a a late 1MWF without the diamond stamp but not the very late 7 jewel, plus and the serial number/year combo is too high to be a Zlatoust.


----------



## shadow_ru

JacobC said:


> First time I'm seeing modern parts on a fake Raketa. They've taken the hands from a modern Avant-Garde and put them in an old watch.
> 
> MINT russian RAKETA Copernic watch Uncommon dial & hands _SERVICED_ | eBay
> 
> Keep this in mind if you see these parts elsewhere.


The watch is legit, you can see more examples at watch.ru message board: Авангардный Коперник "Клином красным бей белых" - Часовой форум Watch.ru
Alexander Brodnikovskiy has it as well.


----------



## dutchassasin

JacobC said:


> First time I'm seeing modern parts on a fake Raketa. They've taken the hands from a modern Avant-Garde and put them in an old watch.
> 
> MINT russian RAKETA Copernic watch Uncommon dial & hands _SERVICED_ | eBay
> 
> Keep this in mind if you see these parts elsewhere.


Thats a legit watch mate, rare piece!


----------



## AaParker

Here's a curious one to me. This sold recently, and I was curious: 21 jewels on the dial for a 22 movement Poljot? Obviously wrong, but is it a misprint from Poljot? A known error? Redialed incorrectly? Thank you for any opinions you may have. 🙂


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Here's a curious one to me. This sold recently, and I was curious: 21 jewels on the dial for a 22 movement Poljot? Obviously wrong, but is it a misprint from Poljot? A known error? Redialed incorrectly? Thank you for any opinions you may have. 🙂
> 
> View attachment 15906802
> 
> 
> View attachment 15906806
> 
> 
> View attachment 15906808


I think this is legit and they had to put 21 because of the foreign regulations of what can be counted as a functional jewel (as opposed to be just a jewel).


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I think this is legit and they had to put 21 because of the foreign regulations of what can be counted as a functional jewel (as opposed to be just a jewel).


Thank you, Odessa! That's very interesting.


----------



## watch22

What do you look for in a women's Zaria diver? Is this a good one?


----------



## JacobC

dutchassasin said:


> Thats a legit watch mate, rare piece!


Thanks! It tricked me for sure!


----------



## Odessa200

watch22 said:


> What do you look for in a women's Zaria diver? Is this a good one?


Looks good to me


----------



## Ligavesh

How does this Sportivnie (Sportivniy?) look to the experts:












































???


----------



## 979greenwich

Radioactive  Other that that, I'm not an expert.


----------



## Odessa200

Looking good except the short seconds hand


----------



## frenchtreasure

Hi guys, thoughts about this Slava Fridge and the Raketa 2609? Thank you!


----------



## Odessa200

frenchtreasure said:


> Hi guys, thoughts about this Slava Fridge and the Raketa 2609? Thank you!
> 
> View attachment 15907976
> View attachment 15907977
> View attachment 15907979


I am a little surprised to see unmarked Slava movement but other than that all is good


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

I've been looking for a gold-plated Chaika Stadium in good condition and may have found the one. But I wanted to check with the experts before pulling the trigger.

What do you think of this example:


----------



## YoBabushka

Hi guys, I got some few watches that I wonder about...
















And this one:



















Seem legit?


----------



## Odessa200

YoBabushka said:


> Hi guys, I got some few watches that I wonder about...
> View attachment 15910511
> View attachment 15910514
> 
> 
> And this one:
> 
> View attachment 15910515
> 
> 
> View attachment 15910516
> 
> 
> Seem legit?


Both are not fully original but that is very hard to expect. Took me years to build a few almost correct Red 12. Too many repairs. Too many replacement.

Did you notice the 2nd watch (that is earlier than 1st) has removable lugs? This is a nonsense for 1948 Pobeda. 2nd watch has gilded fork and balance with screws heads (correct) while the 1st does not (incorrect). 2nd escapement is not gilded. Probably I can find a few more issues&#8230;


----------



## YoBabushka

Odessa200 said:


> Both are not fully original but that is very hard to expect. Took me years to build a few almost correct Red 12. Too many repairs. Too many replacement.
> 
> Did you notice the 2nd watch (that is earlier than 1st) has removable lugs? This is a nonsense for 1948 Pobeda. 2nd watch has gilded fork and balance with screws heads (correct) while the 1st does not (incorrect). 2nd escapement is not gilded. Probably I can find a few more issues&#8230;


Thanks!
Amazing, I got so much to learn... the 1st is to sell for around $110 and the 2nd for $139, do you think it's worth it?


----------



## Odessa200

YoBabushka said:


> Thanks!
> Amazing, I got so much to learn... the 1st is to sell for around $110 and the 2nd for $139, do you think it's worth it?


That is for you to decid . The 2nd one with wrong case is a deal breaker for me (although the movement is nice. The case looks nice and sometimes sellers want to make the product good looking and swap correct old case for a better looking but wrong one&#8230;. I would be keep looking.


----------



## YoBabushka

Odessa200 said:


> That is for you to decid . The 2nd one with wrong case is a deal breaker for me (although the movement is nice. The case looks nice and sometimes sellers want to make the product good looking and swap correct old case for a better looking but wrong one&#8230;. I would be keep looking.


Really cool, thank you. Do you know where I can learn about Pobeda parts and different models etc. so I can judge for myself? I got many watches to choose from and dont want to spam this forum with 100s of questions


----------



## Odessa200

YoBabushka said:


> Really cool, thank you. Do you know where I can learn about Pobeda parts and different models etc. so I can judge for myself? I got many watches to choose from and dont want to spam this forum with 100s of questions


Unfortunately nowhere. Just the forums like this. So do not be shy. Post questions. Just do not post 100 at once. Post one or two: we will discuss. Then next one or two.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> Both are not fully original but that is very hard to expect. Took me years to build a few almost correct Red 12. Too many repairs. Too many replacement.
> 
> Did you notice the 2nd watch (that is earlier than 1st) has removable lugs? This is a nonsense for 1948 Pobeda. 2nd watch has gilded fork and balance with screws heads (correct) while the 1st does not (incorrect). 2nd escapement is not gilded. Probably I can find a few more issues&#8230;


While we are talking about Red 12s... Would you mind taking a look at this one? The crown looks unworn to me. Thanks!
















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----------



## Vumbo

Hey guys,
I'm looking at this particular Raketa Polar. And before I purchase this watch I want to make sure it isn't a Franken watch. I also want to make sure that this is indeed a configuration that was actually produced in the Soviet era.

What's your professional opinion on this piece?

I wasn't able to find any catalogues from raketa, I know they're out there so maybe I haven't searched hard enough.
Thanks..


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks fine. Below from the 1988 Catalog and they are also in the 83 Catalog.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> While we are talking about Red 12s... Would you mind taking a look at this one? The crown looks unworn to me. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Crown probably replaced: not a big issue in my view, just do not like it how it sticks out and separate from the case. Maybe it was in the time setting position. 
1 missing screw in the balance. 
Ratchet wheel is from the Chistopol and not 1MChZ. 
The rest looks good to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Vin Ordinaire said:


> I've been looking for a gold-plated Chaika Stadium in good condition and may have found the one. But I wanted to check with the experts before pulling the trigger.
> 
> What do you think of this example:
> 
> View attachment 15909976
> View attachment 15909977
> View attachment 15909978
> View attachment 15909979
> View attachment 15909976
> View attachment 15909977
> View attachment 15909978
> View attachment 15909979
> View attachment 15909981
> View attachment 15909981


I am a bit surprised how passive is our community sometimes&#8230; no responses? How come?

This Chaika stadium is just fine. Small paint issue at around 6 o'clock but most of these dials have some paint issues. A bit rust on the hands. Other than that this is a very nice specimen.


----------



## Vumbo

elsoldemayo said:


> Looks fine. Below from the 1988 Catalog and they are also in the 83 Catalog.
> 
> View attachment 15911505


Thanks.
Maybe this following question doesn't belong to this forum, please let me know.
But I'm wondering what a reasonable price would be for this watch?
There are many Russian sellers offering this watch, but prices fluctuate quite a bit.


----------



## dutchassasin

Odessa200 said:


> I am a bit surprised how passive is our community sometimes&#8230; no responses? How come?


Well chaika seems to be collected less, so fewer experts i guess


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> Well chaika seems to be collected less, so fewer experts i guess


True. Everyone seems to be preoccupied with Vostok, Copernicus or Biz Zero


----------



## elsoldemayo

Vumbo said:


> Thanks.
> Maybe this following question doesn't belong to this forum, please let me know.
> But I'm wondering what a reasonable price would be for this watch?
> There are many Russian sellers offering this watch, but prices fluctuate quite a bit.


It's in good condition with everything original so $100 would be a good price. If I really wanted it I might go to $130'ish but these come up for sale on ebay quite regularly so any more than that and I'd pass.


----------



## Matt_Hell

I did it again...
Since the watch I bought from UK 3 weeks ago has not arrived yet to me in Italy (maybe because of brexit?) I ended up buying another russian watch. I am pretty sure this is not original. I am also sure it is not in great conditions... I also don't like the seconds hand... I just hope it will be working and keeping time. It was pretty cheap too and shipping from eastern countries is actually way cheaper than shipping even from my country... I am not a fan of roman numerals but I liked the clean design with no stars or komandirskie lettering... What I really like of the watch is the shape of the case and the fact is not gold plated. I have tryed to look for other watches with this case but I don't have a reference name for it. Can anybody tell me if there is a name for it? Anyway, I have found a couple of pictures of watches similar to this one in a vostok catalog from 1983. Any information will be very welcome and appreciated... 
Thanks in advance...


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> True. Everyone seems to be preoccupied with Vostok, Copernicus or Biz Zero


We aren't exactly known to be a very highly populated forum.

Neither do i know anything and everything, i easily spot when parts are wrong/incorrect/modern production. As to watches cobbled from factory parts i usually go catalog diving.

Add to that i had a few posts that were basically ignored here.



Matt_Hell said:


> I did it again...
> Since the watch I bought from UK 3 weeks ago has not arrived yet to me in Italy (maybe because of brexit?) I ended up buying another russian watch. I am pretty sure this is not original. I am also sure it is not in great conditions... I also don't like the seconds hand... I just hope it will be working and keeping time. It was pretty cheap too and shipping from eastern countries is actually way cheaper than shipping even from my country... I am not a fan of roman numerals but I liked the clean design with no stars or komandirskie lettering... What I really like of the watch is the shape of the case and the fact is not gold plated. I have tryed to look for other watches with this case but I don't have a reference name for it. Can anybody tell me if there is a name for it? Anyway, I have found a couple of pictures of watches similar to this one in a vostok catalog from 1983. Any information will be very welcome and appreciated...
> Thanks in advance...
> View attachment 15911917
> View attachment 15911918
> View attachment 15911919
> View attachment 15911921


Weird mix of parts. The case appears to be from a blue dialed "Zakaz" Komandirskie, chapter ring either from said blue dial and very faded or from pic related, 2234 movement supports it to a degree. (There was a few other 22XX model with a similar case/chapter ring combo and it could be from them)

Hour and minute hand from a different Vostok 2209/2214 of the era and i have no idea where that chronostop style seconds hand is from. I suspect the dial is likely glued in place.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello again! I'm really trying not to spam this thread, it's just that I have so many questions. I have been bitten by the collecting bug!

Can you help me with this Poljot De Luxe? It's advertised as a "stainless steel" case but my main concern is the movement. I think the crown has been replaced, but that's ok.

Also, a general question for De Luxe's.... Why do they say "made in the USSR" instead of the traditional CCCP markings that are in other watches? Was it to make it more appealing to western collectors?
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## 979greenwich

I gladly jump in if it concerns first and second generation Amphibians, early Komandirskies, some Raketas like Copernic, Big Zero, Baker...there my interest stops, as well as my knowledge. I have two Poljot chronos, but I'm not polmaxxed enough to give advice on 3133s. If I don't have a strong opinion, I usually keep quiet. It's a pity that some senior members with vast collections lost interest in this thread, as well as F10. I don't blame them, the question "is my Big Zero original" is getting a bit old.


----------



## Vin Ordinaire

Odessa200 said:


> I am a bit surprised how passive is our community sometimes&#8230; no responses? How come?
> 
> This Chaika stadium is just fine. Small paint issue at around 6 o'clock but most of these dials have some paint issues. A bit rust on the hands. Other than that this is a very nice specimen.


I appreciate you chiming in and sharing your time and expertise. I'm awaiting a letter today formalizing a job offer. I think pulling the trigger on this will be a nice way to mark that coming in.


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## palletwheel

979greenwich said:


> ...It's a pity that some senior members with vast collections lost interest in this thread, as well as F10. I don't blame them, the question "is my Big Zero original" is getting a bit old.


While it wasn't that way for me, a Big Zero for many is a start on a long journey. My interests extend way beyond the usual suspects (Copernicus, Big Zero, etc.) though since I'm starting out I'm happy to pick up an example. But like @mroatman I'm really in love with these wonderful old dress watches. However they do seem hard to get in good unadulterated condition. I don't have the watch restoration skills to take a bunch of correct parts and turn them into something beautiful and correct, nor will I anytime soon. Thanks to @Odessa200 and a few others here I'm getting a great education. That kind of patient mentorship is vastly appreciated, and it would be great if some other senior members would come and help. While the old threads on these topics are important reads, it would even help to point them out, as they can easily get buried until someone resurrects them. For people to move past a Big Zero the mentorship is important and requires patience, and perhaps some have forgotten that.

I would suggest for the most popular starter models we put a sticky up top and point people to it so they can get into the hang of doing their own identification, and then perhaps ask if something subtle doesn't match. For example, if you want to ask about a Big Zero, start here and read this:









Raketa Big Zero: The Ultimate Buying Guide


With its distinctive dial sporting the large numbers, “0, 3, 6, 9,” the Raketa Big Zero is a watch that will instantly stand out in any collection of Soviet watches. Nonetheless, obtaining your own authentic




vintagewatchinc.com













Show us your Raketa BIG ZERO !!!


Hello everybody. Excuse-me if I'm wrong but I haven't found a specific subject dedicated to the "BIG ZERO" (yes, there is many little subject about this watch, like this one https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/raketa-zero-petrodvorets-classic-466171.html but I haven't found THE one !) and I was very...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## YoBabushka

Hey guys, can you experts tell me what you think about this Pobeda:
















1st quarter 1946? Seems fishy


----------



## Tianlung4028

palletwheel said:


> Thanks to @Odessa200 and a few others here I'm getting a great education. That kind of patient mentorship is vastly appreciated, and it would be great if some other senior members would come and help. While the old threads on these topics are important reads, it would even help to point them out, as they can easily get buried until someone resurrects them.


I for one appreciate all answers that I've gotten in this thread and appreciate all the members checking into things, particularly @Odessa200. I've even gone back and read through many a posts to get a handle on what is accurate to models I may be interested in in the future so I can tell what should or shouldn't be in that particular model when I go to make a purchase.



palletwheel said:


> I would suggest for the most popular starter models we put a sticky up top and point people to it so they can get into the hang of doing their own identification, and then perhaps ask if something subtle doesn't match.


I would love this. I've seen some posts to "buyers guides" or something like that but it seems that things like that doesn't exist for a lot of models that I'm interested in. Granted, I'm still searching through the forum and tracking stuff like that down. Doing the forensic like hunt is half the fun 

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## SinanjuStein

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello again! I'm really trying not to spam this thread, it's just that I have so many questions. I have been bitten by the collecting bug!
> 
> Can you help me with this Poljot De Luxe? It's advertised as a "stainless steel" case but my main concern is the movement. I think the crown has been replaced, but that's ok.
> 
> Also, a general question for De Luxe's.... Why do they say "made in the USSR" instead of the traditional CCCP markings that are in other watches? Was it to make it more appealing to western collectors?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Generally, the difference is that watches in Cyrillic script (CCCP) marking are for domestic sale, while watches marked with English/Latin (USSR) are for export. Doesn't mean export marked watches aren't plentiful in ex-USSR countries.

While there are a few that aren't marked on the dial and not even on the movement, for the most part they are. I do remember that some export Poljot 26XX's came with only the jewel number marking on the movement, with a dial for whatever company needed it with no mention of the country of origin albeit these are rare.

As far as the watch that's pictured, i think the dial should be more silver colored with silver indices. Picture isn't the greatest but it seems fine otherwise. Would like a few better pictures over just eBay mobile screenshots.

And for collecting and comparing, the best way is to check on the catalogs that you can download on the sticky post on the forum, plus posting on the forum. Although i like using mroatmans website to compare Poljot 2209's as he already has all of them.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello again! I'm really trying not to spam this thread, it's just that I have so many questions. I have been bitten by the collecting bug!
> 
> Can you help me with this Poljot De Luxe? It's advertised as a "stainless steel" case but my main concern is the movement. I think the crown has been replaced, but that's ok.
> 
> Also, a general question for De Luxe's.... Why do they say "made in the USSR" instead of the traditional CCCP markings that are in other watches? Was it to make it more appealing to western collectors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


This is franken. The case is from the Delux. But the stainless steel model had different dial. The movement is also not right. This is a bit later movement with the step and it should be with the beveled edge for the steel model.


----------



## Odessa200

YoBabushka said:


> Hey guys, can you experts tell me what you think about this Pobeda:
> View attachment 15912484
> View attachment 15912485
> 
> 
> 1st quarter 1946? Seems fishy


Good watch. The only thing is that this is a Zim dial and 1MChz movement. But other than that this is not bad. The early movement is right, with the gilded escapement. Correct case. Just the Zim dial is an issue&#8230;


----------



## Odessa200

Matt_Hell said:


> I did it again...
> Since the watch I bought from UK 3 weeks ago has not arrived yet to me in Italy (maybe because of brexit?) I ended up buying another russian watch. I am pretty sure this is not original. I am also sure it is not in great conditions... I also don't like the seconds hand... I just hope it will be working and keeping time. It was pretty cheap too and shipping from eastern countries is actually way cheaper than shipping even from my country... I am not a fan of roman numerals but I liked the clean design with no stars or komandirskie lettering... What I really like of the watch is the shape of the case and the fact is not gold plated. I have tryed to look for other watches with this case but I don't have a reference name for it. Can anybody tell me if there is a name for it? Anyway, I have found a couple of pictures of watches similar to this one in a vostok catalog from 1983. Any information will be very welcome and appreciated...
> Thanks in advance...
> View attachment 15911917
> View attachment 15911918
> View attachment 15911919
> View attachment 15911921


This is a Chaika seconds hand.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> This is franken. The case is from the Delux. But the stainless steel model had different dial. The movement is also not right. This is a bit later movement with the step and it should be with the beveled edge for the steel model.


Pssshew. Glad I didn't pull the trigger on that one! Thanks @Odessa200!

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## xsagasta

Odessa200 said:


> Both are not fully original but that is very hard to expect. Took me years to build a few almost correct Red 12. Too many repairs. Too many replacement.
> 
> Did you notice the 2nd watch (that is earlier than 1st) has removable lugs? This is a nonsense for 1948 Pobeda. 2nd watch has gilded fork and balance with screws heads (correct) while the 1st does not (incorrect). 2nd escapement is not gilded. Probably I can find a few more issues&#8230;


Could you please specify till what year gilded escapement is found in 2602 movements? 1950, maybe?
Thank you so much for this detailed explanations, that help us to continue learning every day.


----------



## Odessa200

xsagasta said:


> Could you please specify till what year gilded escapement is found in 2602 movements? 1950, maybe?
> Thank you so much for this detailed explanations, that help us to continue learning every day.


Gilded fork and escapement wheel was used till 1-49


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## xsagasta

Odessa200 said:


> Gilded fork and escapement wheel was used till 1-49


Thanks a lot, comrade.


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## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I had this one come in today, I have not seen this dial face or case before, real or franken?, 
thank you, James.


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## YoBabushka

Odessa200 said:


> Gilded fork and escapement wheel


Sorry but... which parts are those? 😅


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I had this one come in today, I have not seen this dial face or case before, real or franken?,
> thank you, James.


Hello Jim  I can't help you with the case code on your watch as AFAIK it's still unknown but it IS for a Komandirskie and I would say your watch is correct...

The dial has the code 944 and can be found on page 9 of the 2001 catalogue...(bottom row)


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## jimzilla

Hello Avidfan, It has been awhile and I hope you are doing well and as always thank you for your input. It seems like the case is older than the dial face, just a guess as it seems faded, more light in color than usual, than again if I knew I wouldn't be asking . Thank you so very much for your time, best regards Avidfan, James.


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## Odessa200

YoBabushka said:


> Sorry but... which parts are those? 😅


----------



## tranzchina

Hi there, 
This is my first post here and was actually browsing this site that got me interested in vintage Russian watches. Sorry if this is not the right place, I haven't figured out how the site works 
I recently found a watch that I can't identify and would appreciate some help on it. An not even sure if this is just a fake/franken but thanks in advance for any input.
Here are some photos
























Please let me know if have done something wrong 😊


----------



## Ligavesh

tranzchina said:


> Hi there,
> This is my first post here and was actually browsing this site that got me interested in vintage Russian watches. Sorry if this is not the right place, I haven't figured out how the site works
> I recently found a watch that I can't identify and would appreciate some help on it. An not even sure if this is just a fake/franken but thanks in advance for any input.
> Here are some photos
> View attachment 15915272
> View attachment 15915278
> 
> View attachment 15915279
> 
> 
> Please let me know if have done something wrong 😊


You're at the right place, welcome. I'm not the biggest expert, but that to me looks like one of those Chinese copies of a Vostok Komandirskie (still trying to figure out why would they copy such a cheap watch) -the text "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" looks wrong (what are those "NN" at the end?), no Vostok or Komandirskie markings on the dial, those hands are definitely not Vostok hands and finally the movement is definitely not a Vostok movement (AFAIK). Oh, and the crown is too small for the space between the crown guards -typically a sign of a Chinese fake.


----------



## tranzchina

Thanks so much. Was pretty sure it was a fake but still a funky little watch that looks nice and only 20 US dollars so no biggie.
I am in China so loads of fakes knocking around.
Appreciate the expert input 😊👌


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## tranzchina

Any thoughts on this one I also came across


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## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Any thoughts on this one I also came across
> View attachment 15915374
> View attachment 15915379
> View attachment 15915381


this is a Russian forum so we would not know much about this one. Sorry


----------



## jimzilla

Welcome to the F-10 comrade tranzchina and best regards, James.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello! Would you mind giving me some feedback on this Poljot Rodina? I love the black dial but I've normally seen a few with gold numbers. These numbers seem painted. The seller said that this was made in the 1950s with the 2415A movement. Could this be a radium painted dial? Photos are with the rotor in various positions for easy viewing.
Thanks!























Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## AaParker

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello! Would you mind giving me some feedback on this Poljot Rodina? I love the black dial but I've normally seen a few with gold numbers. These numbers seem painted. The seller said that this was made in the 1950s with the 2415A movement. Could this be a radium painted dial? Photos are with the rotor in various positions for easy viewing.
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I'm sure others will chime in, but what I see looks okay except the "tail" of the second hand is broken off and lume and gilding is missing from hour and minute hands. Number indices are somewhat faded which is common with this dial version. Lume may or may not be radioactive. Here's a post with more details









Rodina radium hands


Hi guys, anybody knows if the Rodina has got radium on its dial and hands? As far as i know for exemple Kama watches did had radium 226.




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Tianlung4028

AaParker said:


> I'm sure others will chime in, but what I see looks okay except the "tail" of the second hand is broken off and lume and gilding is missing from hour and minute hands. Number indices are somewhat faded which is common with this dial version. Lume may or may not be radioactive. Here's a post with more details
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rodina radium hands
> 
> 
> Hi guys, anybody knows if the Rodina has got radium on its dial and hands? As far as i know for exemple Kama watches did had radium 226.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


Thank you for the response! Can you be more specific about the "tail" of the second hand? I'm afraid I don't follow.
I did manage to find that thread and, sadly, I don't have access to USSRtime (it gives me a "forbidden" error) so I can't view what people are talking about in that thread or able to view other Rodina models. Does the movement look entirely original?

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Tianlung4028

AaParker said:


> I'm sure others will chime in, but what I see looks okay except the "tail" of the second hand is broken off and lume and gilding is missing from hour and minute hands. Number indices are somewhat faded which is common with this dial version. Lume may or may not be radioactive. Here's a post with more details
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rodina radium hands
> 
> 
> Hi guys, anybody knows if the Rodina has got radium on its dial and hands? As far as i know for exemple Kama watches did had radium 226.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


Oh! I saw a Rodina on mroatman's website and understand about the fading of the minute and hour hands. I understand now about the "tail" of the second hand. Maybe that was a bad photo. Does it still look damaged in this one? Not sure what to make of the radium hands/dial as I can't see any photos on USSRtime. Does this have the typical "browning" of other radium dials? The second hand looks considerably brighter than the hour/minute hands could it have been replaced?
Thanks for helping me clarify some of these mysteries.









Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Chascomm

tranzchina said:


> Any thoughts on this one I also came across
> View attachment 15915374
> View attachment 15915379
> View attachment 15915381


This is a Moranbong watch made in North Korea. there are members over on the Chinese forum who may be able to tell more.


----------



## Chascomm

tranzchina said:


> Hi there,
> This is my first post here and was actually browsing this site that got me interested in vintage Russian watches. Sorry if this is not the right place, I haven't figured out how the site works
> I recently found a watch that I can't identify and would appreciate some help on it. An not even sure if this is just a fake/franken but thanks in advance for any input.
> Here are some photos
> View attachment 15915272
> View attachment 15915278
> 
> View attachment 15915279
> 
> 
> Please let me know if have done something wrong 😊


What I can see in these photos is a Soviet-era Vostok 'Junior' (mid-size) case into which has been inserted a Chinese Tongji movement, stem and crown; which is why the crown does not fit over the screw-down threads. The dial is a poor imitation/fantasy dial intended to look like a Vostok commemorative dial, and the hands are whatever fits a Tongji movement.

A possible source of spare parts, but as a complete watch it is rubbish.


----------



## Matt_Hell

Odessa200 said:


> This is a Chaika seconds hand.


Thanks Odessa200... Always so kind and helpful. I am very happy to know that that weird thing is from Chaika... My first compulsive buying addiction is actually old cameras... I have a bunch of russian cameras and of course a couple of chaikas... The more I look at the pictures of the monster watch I bought the more I like it... Hope it arrives soon and really hope it will work...


----------



## Roman Ukraine

tranzchina said:


> . Was pretty sure it was a fake


By the way, the case is most likely original. Fakes of these watches do not have a thread for a crown on the case.


----------



## AaParker

Tianlung4028 said:


> Oh! I saw a Rodina on mroatman's website and understand about the fading of the minute and hour hands. I understand now about the "tail" of the second hand. Maybe that was a bad photo. Does it still look damaged in this one? Not sure what to make of the radium hands/dial as I can't see any photos on USSRtime. Does this have the typical "browning" of other radium dials? The second hand looks considerably brighter than the hour/minute hands could it have been replaced?
> Thanks for helping me clarify some of these mysteries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Hello,

Someone else might be able to help determine if lume is radioactive by looking at it. The only way I know to be sure about radium is to test.

To see pictures on USSRTime, you will have to scroll through each page after you click on_ view the entire collection_, and then click on the thumbnail. A Site Dedicated to Soviet-era R

I didn't notice anything questionable about the movement.

Yes, also in this photo the second hand shows damage. There should be an end to it that is missing. You can see it clearly in the photo example below. Also, the second hand is not abnormally brighter than the minute or hour hand. The minute and hour hands are just considerably duller/non-gilded (gold) than the second hand. Again, in the example picture below you will see all three hands are gilded. The example above shows either damage/wear or loss of gilding to all three hands. As far as I know, all Rodinas have gilded hands. Even those with lume in the center have gilded edges.










Good luck with your searches! ?


----------



## nambinik

Hi again, could someone help me with authenticating this sturmanskie 31659





































Thanks a lot. The watch looks pretty cool and the added fact that Toyohiro Akiyama wore it in space makes me want one even more.


----------



## donglemeier

Hi there. I'm wondering if this Vostok Amphibian "Neptune" is legit:





















It seems to have a lot in common with the watches described in this thread but some of the writing on the dial is missing. Can anyone help me out?


----------



## frenchtreasure

Thoughts about this Vostok Ministry?


----------



## 979greenwich

Neptune; well, the bezel is a replacement, also, I think there should also be an inner ring with indices.


----------



## 979greenwich

Ministry; relumed hands, the caseback should have a serial nr., movement - I don't see very well on the mobile...


----------



## Odessa200

donglemeier said:


> Hi there. I'm wondering if this Vostok Amphibian "Neptune" is legit:
> 
> View attachment 15921504
> View attachment 15921505
> View attachment 15921506
> 
> 
> It seems to have a lot in common with the watches described in this thread but some of the writing on the dial is missing. Can anyone help me out?


there were Neptunes w/o Made In. Dial is real. The bezel is replaced. Back cover maybe also replaced: there got to be a serial number either on the movement under balance or on the back cover. This is what I see&#8230;


----------



## donglemeier

Re: Neptune. Thanks guys for the information.


----------



## Avidfan

frenchtreasure said:


> Thoughts about this Vostok Ministry?


New hour and minute hand, note the short lume slot on the minute hand, these hands were only only introduced by Vostok around 2004...


----------



## frenchtreasure

@979greenwich @Avidfan 
Many thanks for your input.


----------



## Ligavesh

Here's the wobbly Poljot Amphibian:



















I pulled out the crown - God knows why, probably encouraged from my success with the Vostoks -well the Poljot seems to be a little trickier and now the crown won't get in _*once again*_. So it's off to a fkin watchmaker again. **** these pieces of ****.


----------



## Odessa200

nambinik said:


> Hi again, could someone help me with authenticating this sturmanskie 31659
> View attachment 15921431
> View attachment 15921432
> View attachment 15921434
> View attachment 15921436
> View attachment 15921437
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot. The watch looks pretty cool and the added fact that Toyohiro Akiyama wore it in space makes me want one even more.


I only see it is relumed. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## davxls

So, I'm watching two Poljot Signals.
1. Looks original (dial, hands, crowns) except relumed dial and wrong (to short) second hand? What about the case? 









2. Dial, hands and crowns looks ok, but wrong minute hand? Can't tell if case is the same as above. 









Thanks to anyone who has any opinion about these two.


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> So, I'm watching two Poljot Signals.
> 1. Looks original (dial, hands, crowns) except relumed dial and wrong (to short) second hand? What about the case?
> View attachment 15923236
> 
> 
> 2. Dial, hands and crowns looks ok, but wrong minute hand? Can't tell if case is the same as above.
> View attachment 15923240
> 
> 
> Thanks to anyone who has any opinion about these two.


you got all right. The cases are same and both right. You did not show back covers that are frequently wrong though&#8230;.


----------



## davxls

Odessa200 said:


> you got all right. The cases are same and both right. You did not show back covers that are frequently wrong though&#8230;.


Thank you! Right, they both have a "one hole case back" which I guess are the wrong ones, It should be several holes(?)


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> Thank you! Right, they both have a "one hole case back" which I guess are the wrong ones, It should be several holes(?)
> View attachment 15923383
> View attachment 15923384


bingo! And this is not a hole. This is where the post that the hammer strikes is attached.


----------



## davxls

Odessa200 said:


> bingo! And this is not a hole. This is where the post that the hammer strikes is attached.


Ah, ok, I see. Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. The back being wrong does not bother me too much, but I'll keep looking for other examples.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> bingo! And this is not a hole. This is where the post that the hammer strikes is attached.


Just for my personal reference Odessa, i know some of these Poljot alarms have a caseback with a serial number.

I'm guessing those are the correct early ones you're referring to?


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Just for my personal reference Odessa, i know some of these Poljot alarms have a caseback with a serial number.
> 
> I'm guessing those are the correct early ones you're referring to?


This Signal in question is the 1st generation. The 1st generation is on caliber 2612 and all these calibers had a serial number on the movement. Hence it cannot be on the back cover (1 watch - 1 serial number). Also the catalog lists 2 back covers. See attached.

Later the caliber 2612.1 was used. Typically these watches do not have the number on the movement and hence the back cover (only one cover was used later) has the number. See attached as well.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> This Signal in question is the 1st generation. The 1st generation is on caliber 2612 and all these calibers had a serial number on the movement. Hence it cannot be on the back cover (1 watch - 1 serial number). Also the catalog lists 2 back covers. See attached.
> 
> Later the caliber 2612.1 was used. Typically these watches do not have the number on the movement and hence the back cover (only one cover was used later) has the number. See attached as well.


I see, thanks Odessa. I had one of the later ones with the .1 suffix and caseback serial number so i was wondering.

Also isn't the point of the 2 covers similar in idea to the Vostok AM shields, but being a simple steel insert with a small post for the alarm hammer instead of having a caseback with a welded post?


----------



## Wazowie

Hello, Can someone tell me if this Raketa Copernicus is real or fake? the movement seems real, im not sure about the case though.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> I see, thanks Odessa. I had one of the later ones with the .1 suffix and caseback serial number so i was wondering.
> 
> Also isn't the point of the 2 covers similar in idea to the Vostok AM shields, but being a simple steel insert with a small post for the alarm hammer instead of having a caseback with a welded post?


No. Completely different. In Vostoks this is an antimagnetic shield. In the Signal the inner cover produces the ring that gets amplified by the empty chamber between the inner cover and the outer cover. The inner cover is not touching skin and hence the watch sounds louder. The later model has a simplified construction with just one cover. This cover makes the noise but because it sits on your hand the sound is muffled. You only feel it while in the older watches you also hear it a bit more.


----------



## primoun

Wazowie said:


> View attachment 15923921
> 
> View attachment 15923923
> 
> View attachment 15923927
> 
> 
> Hello, Can someone tell me if this Raketa Copernicus is real or fake? the movement seems real, im not sure about the case though.


You're right, the case looks wrong. The lugs should not curve back like that and the part of the case that the crown is attached to should not have a squarish bump on the back.. I'm pretty sure the seconds hand is replaced as well as it should have a straight triangular back. Here's a picture of how they're supposed to look:





Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> No. Completely different. In Vostoks this is an antimagnetic shield. In the Signal the inner cover produces the ring that gets amplified by the empty chamber between the inner cover and the outer cover. The inner cover is not touching skin and hence the watch sounds louder. The later model has a simplified construction with just one cover. This cover makes the noise but because it sits on your hand the sound is muffled. You only feel it while in the older watches you also hear it a bit more.


I meant to take the AM shield as a comparison for just an insert and not in functions, but thanks for the in-depth explanation.

And now you made me curious as to get one of the earlier production ones for comparison.


----------



## tranzchina

Could anyone tell me if this is a genuine Raketa. I can't find anything like it 























Thanks in advance.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks fine and is in the 1983 Catalog


----------



## Ligavesh

Hi, what do the experts think of this Vostok -I haven't managed to find it in the catalogs:



































???

Btw, if it's a franken - damage already done, cause I've already bought it 😬


----------



## mariomart

Ligavesh said:


> Hi, what do the experts think of this Vostok -I haven't managed to find it in the catalogs:
> 
> View attachment 15926517
> 
> 
> View attachment 15926518
> 
> 
> View attachment 15926519
> 
> 
> View attachment 15926520
> ???
> 
> Btw, if it's a franken - damage already done, cause I've already bought it 😬


This case design appears in the 1995 edition of "Fascination of Russian Watches" by Michael Ceyp (ISBN 3-929 902-86-9) on page 55.
It was regarded as "very rare" even back in 1995, however the example you have purchased does not have the original correct dial, the hour and minute hand may be correct (although the originals were highly polished) but the second hand is incorrect.

Here is a video of mine from my collection.






Here is the excerpt from the publication mentioned.


----------



## Ligavesh

mariomart said:


> This case design appears in the 1995 edition of "Fascination of Russian Watches" by Michael Ceyp (ISBN 3-929 902-86-9) on page 55.
> It was regarded as "very rare" even back in 1995, however the example you have purchased does not have the original correct dial, the hour and minute hand may be correct (although the originals were highly polished) but the second hand is incorrect.
> 
> Here is a video of mine from my collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the excerpt from the publication mentioned.
> 
> View attachment 15926536


Thanks -well at least the case is correct - and very rare (and in a good condition), the second hand seems standard Vostok, so shouldn't be hard to replace, now just to find that dial....

I mean, I wouldn't put it past Vostok to have different dials or even hands, but now that I look at it again, it doesn't make sense to have a lumed dial with no lumed hour and minute hands, and then again a lumed second hand. Should have thought of that when I was buying it, the excitement always gets the better of me.


----------



## tranzchina

elsoldemayo said:


> Looks fine and is in the 1983 Catalog
> 
> View attachment 15924850


Thanks a lot. very appreciated


----------



## Phealey

shorturl.at/tIQU4

I mentioned in another thread that I was looking for my first watch, a Poljot De Luxe and was suggested to check out a Sekonda. Is the one I'm looking at legit?


----------



## Odessa200

Phealey said:


> shorturl.at/tIQU4
> 
> I mentioned in another thread that I was looking for my first watch, a Poljot De Luxe and was suggested to check out a Sekonda. Is the one I'm looking at legit?


please add photos of the watch you found.


----------



## Phealey

Odessa200 said:


> please add photos of the watch you found.


----------



## Odessa200

I would pass on this one. One of the key parts of the watch that is very hard to fix (dial) is destroyed by an incompetent watchmaker. See the dial legs pocking through the dial? Bad.
the case is old but the movement is more recent. Dial broken. Watch is dirty (unserviced) so will mot run well. Pass. You can find a much better one!


----------



## Phealey

Odessa200 said:


> I would pass on this one. One of the key parts of the watch that is very hard to fix (dial) is destroyed by an incompetent watchmaker. See the dial legs pocking through the dial? Bad.
> the case is old but the movement is more recent. Dial broken. Watch is dirty (unserviced) so will mot run well. Pass. You can find a much better one!


Thanks, I really appreciate it. This forum seems very helpful. I'd love to find a good one. I'm really just interested in a dark dial with slashes rather than numerals, so it seems like a de luxe is the right choice. Are there others I should be considering?


----------



## Odessa200

Yes, you can look at Luch, Poljot and Sekonda. All used same caliber 2209. You can search for just USSR watch 2209.

here is a luch (not perfect, crown is replaced, just a sample








LUCH gold plated Cal.2209 USSR vintage men's ULTRA THIN mechanical wristwatch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for LUCH gold plated Cal.2209 USSR vintage men's ULTRA THIN mechanical wristwatch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





These watches are somewhat common. Do not rush. I am sure you will spot one within a week or so


----------



## frenchtreasure

Following your feedback on the previous watch I posted, did some more research online and scored this one. Hopefully that's a better specimen  What do you think?


----------



## Avidfan

frenchtreasure said:


> Following your feedback on the previous watch I posted, did some more research online and scored this one. Hopefully that's a better specimen  What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 15929374


I think that's a much better example  as this is the anti-magnetic version make sure the anti-magnetic shield is stuck inside the caseback, also that it's got a SU marked 2416b and also that the watch has got only one serial number, either on the mainplate or on the caseback (but I'm sure you know all this)


----------



## 979greenwich




----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello everyone! Would you mind commenting on this Komadirskie? The listing says 1960s but I believe this may be from the 70s instead. Does anyone know what the jewel in the center is? It looks different from the one on the immediate right? Could it be cracked?
Thanks!
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello everyone! Would you mind commenting on this Komadirskie? The listing says 1960s but I believe this may be from the 70s instead. Does anyone know what the jewel in the center is? It looks different from the one on the immediate right? Could it be cracked?
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Watch is from 70s but the movement is from 80s. Dial/hands hard to see. Looks repainted.

Center is supposed to be different (smaller). As far as cracked: cannot see. Quality is too low.


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a Pobeda that seems kind of interesting. I found a dial and handset match from the @mroatman collection, but do they go with a white chrome case? Case and crown seem to look right, but is the caseback correct? Movement is Petrodovorets but is that the right one?


----------



## nambinik

Can anyone help me with the authenticity of this copernicus. I've done a deep dive on all catalogues I could get my hands on for a Raketa, but can't seem to find this in any. I've seen it Samun's collection (ПЧЗ) and some other collectors. I havent seen this handset on any other Russian watch, so seems too elaborate for a franken.

Anyway, I think it's a pretty cool watch either way. Any experts can weigh in on this?


----------



## Phealey

Hi all,

I've continued my search for a black dial De Luxe. Taking into account the things I've picked up from this forum. Am I on the right track with this model? Thanks again.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's a Pobeda that seems kind of interesting. I found a dial and handset match from the @mroatman collection, but do they go with a white chrome case? Case and crown seem to look right, but is the caseback correct? Movement is Petrodovorets but is that the right one?


Back cover is incorrect. Should be clean. 
crown is also I think replaced and not right.


----------



## Odessa200

Phealey said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've continued my search for a black dial De Luxe. Taking into account the things I've picked up from this forum. Am I on the right track with this model? Thanks again.


you are sure on the right track. This one has a fake dial (look at the curved shape of the slashes) and wrong crown. The rest is good.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Dear Comrades!
Please let me know what you think of this Shturmanskie 3133. Any red flags? Seller claims it is from USSR from the 80s.
Thank you!


----------



## Odessa200

N I K O L A I said:


> Dear Comrades!
> Please let me know what you think of this Shturmanskie 3133. Any red flags? Seller claims it is from USSR from the 80s.
> Thank you!
> View attachment 15932861
> View attachment 15932860


Plenty red flags. Wrong hands, wrong balance, 4 heads case for this model, etc. I call it super franken. But I am no Chrono expert. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## Waenoo

Hey everyone! I finally gathered some courage to make an account and throw in my first reply. And to my bad luck, I got bitten by a Vostok bug! Not only am I extremely nervous, but extremely excited to see if people can give me some more information on the watch. So here goes nothing!

The seller had written that this Komandirskie is from around 1980-1989. And I can't be sure to say if it's genuine or franken, as I got zero knowledge in the matter. And as I dug myself deep into a rabbit hole while trying to gather more information about the watch. I made a discovery that there have been tons and tons of variations made of Komandirskie back in the day. So let's see if the Vostok experts here can shed some more light on the watch!



























Hopefully these images are good enough to see all the necessary details!


----------



## Odessa200

Waenoo said:


> Hey everyone! I finally gathered some courage to make an account and throw in my first reply. And to my bad luck, I got bitten by a Vostok bug! Not only am I extremely nervous, but extremely excited to see if people can give me some more information on the watch. So here goes nothing!
> 
> The seller had written that this Komandirskie is from around 1980-1989. And I can't be sure to say if it's genuine or franken, as I got zero knowledge in the matter. And as I dug myself deep into a rabbit hole while trying to gather more information about the watch. I made a discovery that there have been tons and tons of variations made of Komandirskie back in the day. So let's see if the Vostok experts here can shed some more light on the watch!
> 
> View attachment 15934929
> View attachment 15934928
> View attachment 15934931
> View attachment 15934930
> 
> 
> Hopefully these images are good enough to see all the necessary details!


Welcome. I am not going to even try to opine on the exterior: there are more knowledgeable people here for this kind of watch. I will just mention the balance assembly is replaced. Notice the beveled bridge?


----------



## Avidfan

Waenoo said:


> Hey everyone! I finally gathered some courage to make an account and throw in my first reply. And to my bad luck, I got bitten by a Vostok bug! Not only am I extremely nervous, but extremely excited to see if people can give me some more information on the watch. So here goes nothing!
> 
> The seller had written that this Komandirskie is from around 1980-1989. And I can't be sure to say if it's genuine or franken, as I got zero knowledge in the matter. And as I dug myself deep into a rabbit hole while trying to gather more information about the watch. I made a discovery that there have been tons and tons of variations made of Komandirskie back in the day. So let's see if the Vostok experts here can shed some more light on the watch!
> 
> View attachment 15934929
> View attachment 15934928
> View attachment 15934931
> View attachment 15934930
> 
> 
> Hopefully these images are good enough to see all the necessary details!


Welcome to the forum! 

You have a Vostok Komandirskie with 2414A movement, it has a Type 34 case with chrome finish and a 163 coded submarine dial, so you've got a 341163 which could have been made anytime after the end of the SU in the 1990's although the caseback was used only until around 1995 so a better estimate would be 1992-1995...

I wouldn't worry too much about the balance cock not matching as there is a modern Vostok Cadet catalogue that shows exactly the same thing, even though it's not aesthetically very pleasing...


----------



## MattBrace

N I K O L A I said:


> Dear Comrades!
> Please let me know what you think of this Shturmanskie 3133. Any red flags? Seller claims it is from USSR from the 80s.
> Thank you!
> View attachment 15932861
> View attachment 15932860


A feasible combination, certainly not 80's more likely 92' onwards.

Cheers...


----------



## SinanjuStein

Avidfan said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> You have a Vostok Komandirskie with 2414A movement, it has a Type 34 case with chrome finish and a 163 coded submarine dial, so you've got a 341163 which could have been made anytime after the end of the SU in the 1990's although the caseback was used only until around 1995 so a better estimate would be 1992-1995...
> 
> I wouldn't worry too much about the balance cock not matching as there is a modern Vostok Cadet catalogue that shows exactly the same thing, even though it's not aesthetically very pleasing...


I would agree with Avidfan on this, as i had a bunch of just the corner of post soviet era Vostoks lot that i disassembled and had one or two with a different style of balance cock.

The balance assembly (cock-balance-hairspring) is usually the most replaced part as the hairspring is the most delicate part of a watch, and it's easier/cost effective to chuck the a busted one in the bin and put in a new one. (or entire movement)


----------



## Waenoo

Thank you so much Odessa200, Avidfan, MattBrace and SinanjuStein! I was 110% sure people here would know their stuff if I was brave enough to ask! I'm glad to have gotten more information on the watch, as it's my first Vostok. And most likely not the last! And the date mentioned by the seller being off is not a big deal in my books, because that watch was the exact one I was trying to find. Cheers!


----------



## N I K O L A I

Dear All,
I came across this 3017 Poljot. Sorry for the blurry pictures, that's all I have. Anything suspicious that you can spot?
Thanks a lot for your ongoing support, esp. Odessa and Matt. Have a great weekend 😀


----------



## elsoldemayo

The crown has been changed.


----------



## tranzchina

Sorry I only have this blurry picture. I cannot find this in a catalog or collection but the case looks really interesting. Is this Slava genuine?
Thanks again to you all.


----------



## Goldtop 57

Hello from Germany,

I am Oliver, and while I don't exactly collect watches, I have some, and recently found interest in modding Vostok Amphibias.

On Ebay I picked up an obviously quite rare watch, which I and my fellow forum mates at uhrforum.de cannot date, nor have any information about. I have two pics of the watch here:














and I wonder if you have some information on that model. The caliber seems like a hand wind 2414A, but there are no engravings. The case is shiny gold, obviously titaniumnitride, as is the bezel. The face is black and has _very_ shiny hour markers. Golden hands and a red second hand. On the case back there is a number, but I don't have a pic of that.

Also on Ebay, there is a similar watch with a different case and silver dial, which I also bought today. Some pics are here:









Seltene UDSSR Armbanduhr Wostok Vostok sowjetischen Vintage Sammlerstück gewartet | eBay


Entdecken Sie Seltene UDSSR Armbanduhr Wostok Vostok sowjetischen Vintage Sammlerstück gewartet in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!



www.ebay.de





I have never before seen this dial design with the three dots at the 3,6,12 hour positions, no images are to be found on the net, but the watches are obviously real vintage vostoks.

Can you tell me more, maybe about the approx. date and whatever else you know?

I'd be delighted!

Greetings from

Oliver


----------



## Avidfan

Goldtop 57 said:


> Hello from Germany,
> 
> I am Oliver, and while I don't exactly collect watches, I have some, and recently found interest in modding Vostok Amphibias.
> 
> On Ebay I picked up an obviously quite rare watch, which I and my fellow forum mates at uhrforum.de cannot date, nor have any information about. I have two pics of the watch here:
> View attachment 15936720
> View attachment 15936718
> 
> 
> and I wonder if you have some information on that model. The caliber seems like a hand wind 2414A, but there are no engravings. The case is shiny gold, obviously titaniumnitride, as is the bezel. The face is black and has _very_ shiny hour markers. Golden hands and a red second hand. On the case back there is a number, but I don't have a pic of that.
> 
> Also on Ebay, there is a similar watch with a different case and silver dial, which I also bought today. Some pics are here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seltene UDSSR Armbanduhr Wostok Vostok sowjetischen Vintage Sammlerstück gewartet | eBay
> 
> 
> Entdecken Sie Seltene UDSSR Armbanduhr Wostok Vostok sowjetischen Vintage Sammlerstück gewartet in der großen Auswahl bei eBay. Kostenlose Lieferung für viele Artikel!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have never before seen this dial design with the three dots at the 3,6,12 hour positions, no images are to be found on the net, but the watches are obviously real vintage vostoks.
> 
> Can you tell me more, maybe about the approx. date and whatever else you know?
> 
> I'd be delighted!
> 
> Greetings from
> 
> Oliver


Hello Oliver, Welcome to the forum! 

I cant help you much with the first watch I'm afraid as I don't think I've seen that dial before, but as there is no CCCP at the bottom of the dial you can be sure that it was made after the fall of the USSR...

The second watch with 2409A movement is easier as a similar dial can be found in a 1990 Vostok catalogue and they are usually found in Type 54 cases...










Hope this helps a little...


----------



## Goldtop 57

That's something to start with! Thanks.

The first dial is exactly the same design as the second, add a date. So probably the watches date from the same period, I'd guess around the fall of the USSR. A fellow forum member in uhrforum.de said about the black dialled one:

"This watch is one of the relatively rare models. It is a version that was built for export. Some designs didn't make it past prototype status. Of the watch, in the combination as you have it, there may still be a few pieces around the world. Too good for modding."

His source was a Munich-based Russian watchmaker some 15 yrs ago.

Also according to him, the case is a 349 Komandirskie, which he thinks doesn't belong to the rest of the watch, as that should be a 54 case like the second watch has.

That's all I know. I am surprised that there are so few of those around, and that, given their rarity, they are obviously not sought after.

Cheers - and have a nice weekend!!
Oliver

EDIT: using the ref number from your pic, I just found the following pic (scroll down) of a watch that has the silver face, but a different bezel and case:









2409 (parte II) | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


Vostok Riferimento: 548343 Produzione: primi anni 90' Calibro: 2409a con 17 rubini Carica manuale Cassa in metallo pressofuso cromato. Ghiera esterna




vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Sorry I only have this blurry picture. I cannot find this in a catalog or collection but the case looks really interesting. Is this Slava genuine?
> Thanks again to you all.
> View attachment 15936684
> View attachment 15936685


Looks good to me.


----------



## jimzilla

Hello comrades, I hope everyone is doing well. I would like to know if this is real or franken as I am not familiar with these.
It does have a 2209 inside, I can see it has a gold seconds hand and it came with a Pers bezel. thank you guys for your time, James.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Greetings, Comrades. I came across a couple of chronographs (3133 and 31659) and I am very curious about those. Please share your thoughts. Thanks!


----------



## 979greenwich

The 1190 tonneau is (nicely) relumed and probably has a replaced caseback. Should be written 2209 shockproof balance (AFAIK).


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Hello comrades, I hope everyone is doing well. I would like to know if this is real or franken as I am not familiar with these.
> It does have a 2209 inside, I can see it has a gold seconds hand and it came with a Pers bezel. thank you guys for your time, James.


Hello James,

Make sure the 2209 movement doesn't have a serial number on the mainplate under the balance as if it has it is for sure a franken, the English language export caseback with serial number would be correct for a watch from 1985 or later...


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you for responding back to me Avidfan. I have another one I will post later as well, thanks so much and have a great day, James.


----------



## tranzchina

dear all,
i find this very interesting piece and would really appreciate any help in identifying it. It's definitely a bit of an enigma as it has no markings.
























really appreciate all your help


----------



## SinanjuStein

tranzchina said:


> dear all,
> i find this very interesting piece and would really appreciate any help in identifying it. It's definitely a bit of an enigma as it has no markings.
> 
> really appreciate all your help


I would really like a better picture of the movement, but i think it's a wartime era 1st Moscow watch factory movement (lack of date, probably just pre-evacuation) but i'm not 100% sure and would like to hear what others can say.

But from what i can see, the hands have been re-lumed with standard cheap lume instead of radium and this type of cathedral hands usually came with a seconds hand with lume as well. Dial looks like it's been dipped through a bucket of paint stripper and or left under the sun for a few decades.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> I would really like a better picture of the movement, but i think it's a wartime era 1st Moscow watch factory movement (lack of date, probably just pre-evacuation) but i'm not 100% sure and would like to hear what others can say.
> 
> But from what i can see, the hands have been re-lumed with standard cheap lume instead of radium and this type of cathedral hands usually came with a seconds hand with lume as well. Dial looks like it's been dipped through a bucket of paint stripper and or left under the sun for a few decades.


Agree with all the above. There is a thousand of these 'enigmas' in much better state. This watch is only good for parts (movement). The dial is destroyed (and the dial is 50% of the watch price if not more). Crown is wrong. Hands are brutally vandalized&#8230; I suggest you look more and get a better looking watch.


----------



## jimzilla

I would like to know if these are the correct parts for this watch, thank you in advance.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I would like to know if these are the correct parts for this watch, thank you in advance.


Hello James,

Looks like the remains of a 1190046, the hands are brand new Vostok and I'm not sure if they will even fit on 2209 pinions as it's not a thing I've tried, the bezel is a modern reproduction (fake) and the crystal is probably a replacement as the originals are often all crazed, the rest looks all correct...


----------



## jimzilla

Thanks again Avidfan, I have a new fake dial for it and I was going to use those hands but I do not know either if it will fit a
2209 movement, thanks for bringing that to my attention I guess I will ask in the repair section. as always thank you for your time sir and best regards to you Antony, James.


----------



## tranzchina

Odessa200 said:


> Agree with all the above. There is a thousand of these 'enigmas' in much better state. This watch is only good for parts (movement). The dial is destroyed (and the dial is 50% of the watch price if not more). Crown is wrong. Hands are brutally vandalized&#8230; I suggest you look more and get a better looking watch.


Thanks all. Was not sure exactly what it is but you helped a lot. Was also not sure if this was meant to have no dial. Will definitely look for one in better condition


----------



## Ligavesh

Is the condition of this dial too good to be true/authentic?




























rest seems okay:


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> Is the condition of this dial too good to be true/authentic?
> 
> View attachment 15943810
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943811
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943812
> 
> 
> rest seems okay:
> 
> View attachment 15943814
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943816


I'm going to give you a heads up, i have been watching that watch for a while because it has a better dial and hands than mine. (waiting on a refund&sale beforehand)

Seller is an okay guy as well, and if it goes it goes.


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Is the condition of this dial too good to be true/authentic?
> 
> View attachment 15943810
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943811
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943812
> 
> 
> rest seems okay:
> 
> View attachment 15943814
> 
> 
> View attachment 15943816


A franken for sure with that two serial number thing going on, (which one would they put on the passport?)

The dial is nice though...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> A franken for sure with that two serial number thing going on, (which one would they put on the passport?)
> 
> The dial is nice though...


Eh, I don't care if the caseback has been changed to be honest, for me it would just be important to have a hystoricaly adequate back... If that bothers @SinanjuStein and he doesn't want the watch then I'll go for it - if it doesn't bother him and he still plans to get it, then I'll pass on it, I have found another one with also a very nice dial.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> Eh, I don't care if the caseback has been changed to be honest, for me it would just be important to have a hystoricaly adequate back... If that bothers @SinanjuStein and he doesn't want the watch then I'll go for it - if it doesn't bother him and he still plans to get it, then I'll pass on it, I have found another one with also a very nice dial.


Up to you really, the main difference is that mine has a slightly noticeable scratch which i can easily live with (I can only see it under directed artificial light) but everything else is excellent.










And for the caseback, i agree it's not the greatest but for the price of the watch it's relatively difficult to complain if you're willing to do a bit of part swapping.


----------



## Ligavesh

SinanjuStein said:


> Up to you really, the main difference is that mine has a slightly noticeable scratch which i can easily live with (I can only see it under directed artificial light) but everything else is excellent.
> 
> View attachment 15944265
> 
> 
> And for the caseback, i agree it's not the greatest but for the price of the watch it's relatively difficult to complain if you're willing to do a bit of part swapping.


No, its okay, I got the other one, it was a bit cheaper too 😅

Although tbh it has more scratches on the case, but I have a 119 case at home in a decent condition, I'll just replace them.


----------



## jimzilla

I am actually in the process of building the SAME franken watch!!! I will post it here tomorrow guys.


----------



## jimzilla

I am also wondering if this watch is authentic, thank you, James.
NOS!! LUCH Cal.2209 Ultra Slim Wristwatch Soviet watches USSR | eBay


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I am also wondering if this watch is authentic, thank you, James.
> NOS!! LUCH Cal.2209 Ultra Slim Wristwatch Soviet watches USSR | eBay


fake


----------



## jimzilla

As promised my 119 cased franken.


----------



## Ligavesh

looks too perfect


----------



## SinanjuStein

jimzilla said:


> As promised my 119 cased franken.


Aftermarket dial and hands by the look of it.


----------



## jimzilla

SinanjuStein said:


> Aftermarket dial and hands by the look of it.


Yes it is a franken with a 2409 I said that a few posts back......... but you have to admit it is a handsome looking watch 
I wish I could just find a 119 case in perfect condition.  best regards SinaniuStein.


----------



## SinanjuStein

jimzilla said:


> Yes it is a franken with a 2409 I said that a few posts back......... but you have to admit it is a handsome looking watch
> I wish I could just find a 119 case in perfect condition.  best regards SinaniuStein.


Haven't seen one of these in a while, which makes sense since the hands looked like modern Vostok hands.


----------



## tranzchina

SinanjuStein said:


> I would really like a better picture of the movement, but i think it's a wartime era 1st Moscow watch factory movement (lack of date, probably just pre-evacuation) but i'm not 100% sure and would like to hear what others can say.
> 
> But from what i can see, the hands have been re-lumed with standard cheap lume instead of radium and this type of cathedral hands usually came with a seconds hand with lume as well. Dial looks like it's been dipped through a bucket of paint stripper and or left under the sun for a few decades.


thank 


Odessa200 said:


> Agree with all the above. There is a thousand of these 'enigmas' in much better state. This watch is only good for parts (movement). The dial is destroyed (and the dial is 50% of the watch price if not more). Crown is wrong. Hands are brutally vandalized&#8230; I suggest you look more and get a better looking watch.


Thanks for the input on this. You are right although I would like to find a reasonable FSWF watch it's not worth it with that one.


----------



## tranzchina

Am bothering again. Have definitely caught the bug for vintage Russian watches but don't know enough yet. This time I have two things I cannot identify one is a poljot in which all the pieces seem to fit together but I don't know where it could have been intended for. The text on the dial says Mongolians x33 and the back I think says Khural which is the Mongolian Parliament.
the other watch I don't recognize at all. Any experts recognize these?


----------



## Ligavesh

Experts on this Pobeda:

















???

I suppose many swapped parts, hands and other stuff?


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Am bothering again. Have definitely caught the bug for vintage Russian watches but don't know enough yet. This time I have two things I cannot identify one is a poljot in which all the pieces seem to fit together but I don't know where it could have been intended for. The text on the dial says Mongolians x33 and the back I think says Khural which is the Mongolian Parliament.
> the other watch I don't recognize at all. Any experts recognize these?
> View attachment 15947730
> View attachment 15947732
> 
> View attachment 15947734
> View attachment 15947735
> View attachment 15947737


Both watches look good to me. Poljot is some export ver for Mongolia. 2nd watch is a Zim made in 1975 (30 years since war victory).


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Experts on this Pobeda:
> 
> View attachment 15948265
> 
> 
> View attachment 15948266
> ???
> 
> I suppose many swapped parts, hands and other stuff?


hands swapped for sure (hour and minute). The rest is Ok but I am not a 100% sure. This is a Zim movement and zim case.


----------



## tranzchina

Odessa200 said:


> Both watches look good to me. Poljot is some export ver for Mongolia. 2nd watch is a Zim made in 1975 (30 years since war victory).


Wow, totally impressed you can recognize so easily. Thank you so much.


----------



## Ligavesh

What are these strange Komandirskies (?) - very similar, but one is 2234, the other 2214:



















that was the 2234, and now the 2214:

















?????


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> What are these strange Komandirskies (?) - very similar, but one is 2234, the other 2214:
> 
> View attachment 15948896
> 
> 
> View attachment 15948897
> 
> 
> that was the 2234, and now the 2214:
> 
> View attachment 15948898
> 
> 
> View attachment 15948899
> ?????


Read this old thread here...


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> Read this old thread here...


That's a fantastic link to a thread I haven't seen, thank you 
Here is one in my collection, the no date version.









And I even stockpiled a photo I found online of a NOS with passport.


----------



## SinanjuStein

Ligavesh said:


> What are these strange Komandirskies (?) - very similar, but one is 2234, the other 2214:
> 
> View attachment 15948896
> 
> 
> View attachment 15948897
> 
> 
> that was the 2234, and now the 2214:
> 
> View attachment 15948898
> 
> 
> View attachment 15948899
> ?????


I figured these looked right in a way as the dial paint looks like the same kind used in pic related, which is an early 2414. And the linked thread about gun cameras does support it.










Picture off ebay, i have a an example in my parts drawer where some of the dial paint/coating dissolved so i would advice not leaving them under direct sunlight.


----------



## mariomart

I think the use high visibility white paint on the hands (including the second hand) rather than luminous paint shows it as a specialised use watch, as the white paint shows up very well under IR red light conditions such as in an aircraft.


----------



## Ligavesh

I'm aware this isbprobably not the original bezel of the watch:










So the whole 'tags still on' is a bit weird, but does anyone know, when did Vostok ditch their old-style bakelite bezels and started using these new ones? Are these just recent introduction - in the last few years?

Btw, old style bezel, for those who don't know:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> I'm aware this isbprobably not the original bezel of the watch:
> 
> View attachment 15952121
> 
> 
> So the whole 'tags still on' is a bit weird, but does anyone know, when did Vostok ditch their old-style bakelite bezels and started using these new ones? Are these just recent introduction - in the last few years?
> 
> Btw, old style bezel, for those who don't know:
> 
> View attachment 15952125


Bezel is for sure modern. Here is the 'catalog'


----------



## tranzchina

Please ignore


----------



## xsagasta

tranzchina said:


> Please ignore


Edited in response to the comrade's request.


----------



## Puglit

Hey comrades-

Been putting together a Soviet watch display of sorts (watches and movements in a frame). I have mostly everything I wanted to include but a few last pieces. One of them is the Big 0. I don't have any movement images of these yet, but does anything about the dial, hands, crown, case look off from any of these 4 watches? The crown on #3 looks too small (?), but besides that I can't find anything wrong with them. It is difficult to tell whether the markers on the dials are applied or not. Any assistance would be appreciated. 

There are 4 watches here, two pictures of each. 

Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Puglit said:


> Hey comrades-
> 
> Been putting together a Soviet watch display of sorts (watches and movements in a frame). I have mostly everything I wanted to include but a few last pieces. One of them is the Big 0. I don't have any movement images of these yet, but does anything about the dial, hands, crown, case look off from any of these 4 watches? The crown on #3 looks too small (?), but besides that I can't find anything wrong with them. It is difficult to tell whether the markers on the dials are applied or not. Any assistance would be appreciated.
> 
> There are 4 watches here, two pictures of each.
> 
> Thanks


all look good to me. 3rd crown does look smaller. Maybe just because it was used quite a lot.


----------



## davxls

Would appreciate any thoughts about this Kirovskie. Looks good to me, but maybe I'm missing something. Maybe the crown is wrong?


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> Would appreciate any thoughts about this Kirovskie. Looks good to me, but maybe I'm missing something. Maybe the crown is wrong?
> View attachment 15956823
> View attachment 15956824
> View attachment 15956825


I think the crown is wrong but the rest is quite nice! Radioactive watch! Made by, I think, 2MChZ in the evacuation during the war. Lovely watch


----------



## davxls

Odessa200 said:


> I think the crown is wrong but the rest is quite nice! Radioactive watch! Made by, I think, 2MChZ in the evacuation during the war. Lovely watch


Thank you for your reply. Yes, maybe it should have the more "cone-like" crown I have seen on some of these.
Edit: But then again, the type of crown on the photo also are seen on other Kirovskies on the web.


----------



## markperson

I've been looking for a few months to pull the trigger on a reasonably-priced Big Zero (as in a little wear getting me a slightly lower price isn't bad).

I'm new at identifying fakes/frankens (so I'm always looking for advice and second opinions), but I've found one that looks possibly good (has the right movement, right hands hockey puck crystal, hour markings look right, etc).
One thing I'm still having difficulty with from just the pictures is the winding crown. Does it look original to the big zero?


----------



## primoun

markperson said:


> I've been looking for a few months to pull the trigger on a reasonably-priced Big Zero (as in a little wear getting me a slightly lower price isn't bad).
> 
> I'm new at identifying fakes/frankens (so I'm always looking for advice and second opinions), but I've found one that looks possibly good (has the right movement, right hands hockey puck crystal, hour markings look right, etc).
> One thing I'm still having difficulty with from just the pictures is the winding crown. Does it look original to the big zero?


Crown looks good to me. However I'm familiar with this particular ebay listing and the movement has replaced parts as shown by the beveled edges.


----------



## davxls

Odessa200 said:


> I think the crown is wrong but the rest is quite nice! Radioactive watch! Made by, I think, 2MChZ in the evacuation during the war. Lovely watch


Btw, you write radioactive. Should one be concern about that small amount of lume?


----------



## markperson

primoun said:


> Crown looks good to me. However I'm familiar with this particular ebay listing and the movement has replaced parts as shown by the beveled edges.


Are the beveled edges you're referring to on the crystal?


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Radio-Room? I'm mostly worried about the hands (minute seems bent -from service?, lume on second and other hands doesn't seem to match, i.e. lume on second hand darker - hand replaced? - also doesn't quite fit with lume on the dial? although, I've gotta say, I've seen many old watches where the second hand lume doesn't quite match the rest of the lume, i.e. it's mostly darker)....


----------



## primoun

markperson said:


> Are the beveled edges you're referring to on the crystal?


On the movement. The outside edge of some of the movement pieces slants down, which means that those pieces are replacements.


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> Btw, you write radioactive. Should one be concern about that small amount of lume?


it depends. The watch itself, if you put it against the Geiger meter will be super radioactive. The levels you see will shock you. Look at the attached. And this is a mild watch. I have watches that significantly more radioactive. No wat to tell how your will score w/o measuring. 
But this radiation rapidly decreases with distance. About 1.5- 2 meters away from the watch the radiation will not be detected. I assume you are not planning ti make this your daily watch&#8230; occasional use is Ok (unless you have a history of oncology issues). Main thing: never ever open the watch. There is a very high chances in f some lose particles of radium paint inside. If you inhale one it will be with you for a long time&#8230;


----------



## MattBrace

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Radio-Room? I'm mostly worried about the hands (minute seems bent -from service?, lume on second and other hands doesn't seem to match, i.e. lume on second hand darker - hand replaced? - also doesn't quite fit with lume on the dial? although, I've gotta say, I've seen many old watches where the second hand lume doesn't quite match the rest of the lume, i.e. it's mostly darker)....
> 
> View attachment 15958076
> 
> 
> View attachment 15958077
> 
> 
> View attachment 15958078


All good, and correct red lettering movement.

Cheers...


----------



## Bear.

Hi i searched alot,but can't find this exact model.Can somebody tell me any information on this watch? Is it legit or really old fake? 









Thanks in advance!


----------



## Odessa200

Bear. said:


> Hi i searched alot,but can't find this exact model.Can somebody tell me any information on this watch? Is it legit or really old fake?
> View attachment 15958873
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Welcome. Looks good. From the 80s. Next time probably add the movement and the back cover photos if you care that the movement is also right.


----------



## Bear.

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. Looks good. From the 80s. Next time probably add the movement and the back cover photos if you care that the movement is also right.


Thank you.I'm all knew to this watch hobby On the back only says serial number(it was really strange to me,all other watches usually have more info), and i read that they didn't include any information in it.
To be honest i know little about this watch. Thank you helping me


----------



## Odessa200

Bear. said:


> Thank you.I'm all knew to this watch hobby On the back only says serial number(it was really strange to me,all other watches usually have more info), and i read that they didn't include any information in it.
> To be honest i know little about this watch. Thank you helping me
> View attachment 15959383


Yes, this is very common for Soviet watches to have the serial number on the back. I guess you do not have the photos of the movement so what we see is all good.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello comrades. Can anyone give me some guidance on this Komadirskie? Do you know what the Cyrillic says underneath the red star? Lume near the 3 o'clock position seems odd and the crown looks like it's been replaced.
Thanks!
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello comrades. Can anyone give me some guidance on this Komadirskie? Do you know what the Cyrillic says underneath the red star? Lume near the 3 o'clock position seems odd and the crown looks like it's been replaced.
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Good watch. Crown replaced. Lume next to 3 should be just a line. Looks like it is a bit crumbled. Not a big deal. Watch should have a stop second complication.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> Watch should have a stop second complication.


Do you mean a hacking feature? And if so, how would I go about checking this?
Thanks again, Odessa200

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## steros

Found this, doesn't look like anything I've seen before, anyone who knows anything about it?








RARE Vintage Watch Russian SLAVA Manual Winding'80 years made in USSR 36mm | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RARE Vintage Watch Russian SLAVA Manual Winding'80 years made in USSR 36mm at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Do you mean a hacking feature? And if so, how would I go about checking this?
> Thanks again, Odessa200
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


you pull the crown out and the watch stops. Ask the seller if it works.


----------



## 979greenwich

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello comrades. Can anyone give me some guidance on this Komadirskie? Do you know what the Cyrillic says underneath the red star? Lume near the 3 o'clock position seems odd and the crown looks like it's been replaced.
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
> 
> I'm familiar with that listing. Like all early Komandirskies, Chistopol is written underneath the red star (which someone tried to repaint, by the looks of it). Crown is non original, watch overpriced. There's a similarly priced white dial variant on Ebay that I like better.
> About the stop-second function, you can ask the seller if it works.


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> Found this, doesn't look like anything I've seen before, anyone who knows anything about it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RARE Vintage Watch Russian SLAVA Manual Winding'80 years made in USSR 36mm | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RARE Vintage Watch Russian SLAVA Manual Winding'80 years made in USSR 36mm at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


If you search for 'Slava Plastic Watch' you will find quite a few similar. Low priced cheep watches from the end of USSR.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Thanks @979greenwich! Seller says the hacking feature doesn't work so it's a no go for me (especially given the price). Can you PM me in the direction of that white dial? (Unless you want to nab it for yourself  Much appreciated @Odessa200

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thanks @979greenwich! Seller says the hacking feature doesn't work so it's a no go for me (especially given the price). Can you PM me in the direction of that white dial? (Unless you want to nab it for yourself  Much appreciated @Odessa200
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I do not know it. . I have quite a few of these so I am set for now.

many of these have broken stop second. Easy fix for a watchmaker if you have the parts. Many were removed deliberately: some people did not like that the watch stops when you set the time. Some just got naturally broken.


----------



## palletwheel

I came across this Luch which looks pretty nice, but I'm not sure about the handset, can't seem to match it up with anything. Thanks as always for the help.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across this Luch which looks pretty nice, but I'm not sure about the handset, can't seem to match it up with anything. Thanks as always for the help.


I believe this type of dial was made with simple stick hands (for plain dials like this) and with the hands as this watch (for colorful dial variations). But I do not think gilded hands match the chromed case anyway. In golden case I could accept a possibility. Or these hands just look yellow but they are chromed???
the rest of the watch is good. Movement marches the dial (timewise).


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends!
Can you help me with this Komadirskie? From what I can tell this is a "3rd generation" from this post: Early Generation Komandirskie's 
but I would love some clarification as I am less confident with judging the movement. As far as I can tell this was manufactured in the late 60s. Thoughts?
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I believe this type of dial was made with simple stick hands (for plain dials like this) and with the hands as this watch (for colorful dial variations). But I do not think gilded hands match the chromed case anyway. In golden case I could accept a possibility. Or these hands just look yellow but they are chromed???
> the rest of the watch is good. Movement marches the dial (timewise).


They are not gilt, but are as you say from a colored dial watch, I attach a link to a photo from @mroatman collection. Once you said that, then I understood what to look for. Pity, rest of the watch is really nice, I just don't have the skills to buy it and then find the right handset. Thanks as always.






Luch | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Luch, Луч, Ray, Beam, Ultra-Thin, 2209, Minsk, Belarus, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## 979greenwich

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> Can you help me with this Komadirskie? From what I can tell this is a "3rd generation" from this post: Early Generation Komandirskie's
> but I would love some clarification as I am less confident with judging the movement. As far as I can tell this was manufactured in the late 60s. Thoughts?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Second hand is replaced. Should be without the arrow tail. Also, this is a late '60s watch and I don't know when they started stamping 2234 on the movement. Mine have the 2214 with hacking and a Breguet-type balance.


----------



## steros

This Vostok is intriguing to me. Nice dial design, but does it really belong to this case?The seller says not modified, 30 m waterproof.








VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR WRIST WATCH VOSTOK MECHANICS WORKERS RARE | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR WRIST WATCH VOSTOK MECHANICS WORKERS RARE at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Second hand is replaced. Should be without the arrow tail. Also, this is a late '60s watch and I don't know when they started stamping 2234 on the movement. Mine have the 2214 with hacking and a Breguet-type balance.


spot on. Seconds hand is wrong. Balance is wrong. 
2234, I think,on the movements started in 1973. So it is possible to have it on this watch. I would not disqualify because of this stamp.


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> This Vostok is intriguing to me. Nice dial design, but does it really belong to this case?The seller says not modified, 30 m waterproof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR WRIST WATCH VOSTOK MECHANICS WORKERS RARE | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR WRIST WATCH VOSTOK MECHANICS WORKERS RARE at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Yes. All legit. I think they existed in chromed and NiTi cases. One of the best combo in this case during the late USSR.

but the fact that you posted the direct link to a life auction and I endorsed it may backfire: now a few more people will bet. So you may end up paying signmore. Next time post photos. Not links!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Yes. All legit. I think they existed in chromed and NiTi cases. One of the best combo in this case during the late USSR.
> 
> but the fact that you posted the direct link to a life auction and I endorsed it may backfire: now a few more people will bet. So you may end up paying signmore. Next time post photos. Not links!
> View attachment 15961112


I've already bought so much this month, I'm not bidding on a sheer principle (and my principles are weak).


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends!
Can you give me a hand with this Type 1? The hands seem weird to me as they look to be two different types. The balance wheel also looks strange to me as it is a silver color instead of bright brass.
Thoughts?
Thanks!
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## SinanjuStein

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> Can you give me a hand with this Type 1? The hands seem weird to me as they look to be two different types. The balance wheel also looks strange to me as it is a silver color instead of bright brass.
> Thoughts?
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Hands do look like they're from two different styles.

Balance wheel is okay for an earlier watch made before the start of the great patriotic war (It's plated brass), i've seen a few like this from the 38~39 years of production.


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Hands do look like they're from two different styles.
> 
> Balance wheel is okay for an earlier watch made before the start of the great patriotic war (It's plated brass), i've seen a few like this from the 38~39 years of production.


agree. Just the hour hand is wrong. Here is mine that is very similar


----------



## SinanjuStein

Odessa200 said:


> agree. Just the hour hand is wrong. Here is mine that is very similar
> View attachment 15963198
> View attachment 15963199


Out of curiosity Odessa, how many Type-1's do you have? I personally have only the one that came from my grandfathers uncle (who was a watchmaker) with the early 50's artsel replacement dial.

(at some point might pick up another one as a display piece, i have a suspicion mine is radioactive)


----------



## Odessa200

SinanjuStein said:


> Out of curiosity Odessa, how many Type-1's do you have? I personally have only the one that came from my grandfathers uncle (who was a watchmaker) with the early 50's artsel replacement dial.
> 
> (at some point might pick up another one as a display piece, i have a suspicion mine is radioactive)


I have only 11 that I would gladly trade for 1 from my ancestors. Unfortunately they left no watches&#8230;


----------



## palletwheel

Since we're on the subject, I came across this one that seems to be ok. It looks like it was decontaminated too, but please let me know if you think the folks who typically sell this sort of thing actually get that right.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Since we're on the subject, I came across this one that seems to be ok. It looks like it was decontaminated too, but please let me know if you think the folks who typically sell this sort of thing actually get that right.


looks good


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> looks good


If you don't mind, to further my education, see if I can draw a picture of the analysis here and let me know if I understand. Does the missing date stamp mean the movement was produced during the war? Did this type of watch dial have its lume cleaned off, and the hands switched out in a canonical way at some point so that this becomes a correct type or are cathedral hands the original type? Or were the dial and hands made this way from the beginning? Does a 7 jeweled movement with no date stamp, dial with these hands and no lume tell you that this is a war time watch (with the bent lug in this case for good measure) that most likely has all parts truly original to the watch? Thanks as always.


----------



## Ligavesh

Are the hands on this watch good? I mean the second hand primarily, should it be black? Also, unfortunately no movement shot.


----------



## steros

Odessa200 said:


> Yes. All legit. I think they existed in chromed and NiTi cases. One of the best combo in this case during the late USSR.
> 
> but the fact that you posted the direct link to a life auction and I endorsed it may backfire: now a few more people will bet. So you may end up paying signmore. Next time post photos. Not links!
> View attachment 15961112


Ah. Didnt't think about that. But I have also bought a lot lately, so maybe just as good... Thank you!


----------



## steros

This one I'm happy to post the link to because I'm not trying to buy it. What is this? Does it have an original accessory? For hunters???









VTG Luch Revolver Drum Hunting Wrist Watch Protected Soviet Quartz RARE SERVISED | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VTG Luch Revolver Drum Hunting Wrist Watch Protected Soviet Quartz RARE SERVISED at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello comrades. I apparently missed the Type 1 section of this thread. I'm a bit disappointed that my previous inquiry didn't work out but I'm curious about this one. The hands seem right from the catalogs that I've read about. I've bought from this seller before and they claim that this type 1 is completely original but I value everyone's opinions here as you know more than me. I'm primarily concerned with the crown. Do later (mid '50s) Type 1s have different crowns than the earlier "onion" crowns? Or has the crown been replaced? It also seems to be missing a couple of screws in the movement. Would these be replaceable? Does this devalue the piece a bit?

I've realized that I've asked many questions but I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I strive to learn. Many thanks!























Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## palletwheel

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello comrades. I apparently missed the Type 1 section of this thread. I'm a bit disappointed that my previous inquiry didn't work out but I'm curious about this one. The hands seem right from the catalogs that I've read about. I've bought from this seller before and they claim that this type 1 is completely original but I value everyone's opinions here as you know more than me. I'm primarily concerned with the crown. Do later (mid '50s) Type 1s have different crowns than the earlier "onion" crowns? Or has the crown been replaced? It also seems to be missing a couple of screws in the movement. Would these be replaceable? Does this devalue the piece a bit?
> 
> I've realized that I've asked many questions but I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I strive to learn. Many thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


I believe the hands are wrong, please see my post above, but I am also trying to learn more! Also, always check @mroatman collection before you buy, most of the basic cosmetic questions can be answered by having a look first. The movements though have subtitles, check these threads:









The Military Kirovskie Type-1 K-43


Fans of Soviet watches always encounter descriptions such as ¨Soviet military watch¨ or ¨Russian army wristwatch¨ in sales ads, articles on the topic, etc. Unfortunately, I believe that in 99%




www.safonagastrocrono.club













Type-1 Movement study...


Recently, in an effort to advance our knowledge of the "type-1" 1mwf movement, I purchased a bundle of non-functional movements for the purpose of examination. There are six movements in total, I have disassembled them all, and digitized images of the relevant components (whenever present). The...




www.watchuseek.com





Though I see you posted there, I'll put this here anyway:









Show your Kirovskie k43 type 1


Hello comrades! Here I open this thread so that we can share our Kirovskie type 1 watches from the soviet red army before/during/after World War II and talk about them, their history, straps, cares, maintenance, sells, auctions, problems, spares, etc... Please feel free to share your piece of...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Tianlung4028

palletwheel said:


> I believe the hands are wrong, please see my post above, but I am also trying to learn more! Also, always check @mroatman collection before you buy, most of the basic cosmetic questions can be answered by having a look first. The movements though have subtitles, check these threads:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Military Kirovskie Type-1 K-43
> 
> 
> Fans of Soviet watches always encounter descriptions such as ¨Soviet military watch¨ or ¨Russian army wristwatch¨ in sales ads, articles on the topic, etc. Unfortunately, I believe that in 99%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.safonagastrocrono.club
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type-1 Movement study...
> 
> 
> Recently, in an effort to advance our knowledge of the "type-1" 1mwf movement, I purchased a bundle of non-functional movements for the purpose of examination. There are six movements in total, I have disassembled them all, and digitized images of the relevant components (whenever present). The...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though I see you posted there, I'll put this here anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show your Kirovskie k43 type 1
> 
> 
> Hello comrades! Here I open this thread so that we can share our Kirovskie type 1 watches from the soviet red army before/during/after World War II and talk about them, their history, straps, cares, maintenance, sells, auctions, problems, spares, etc...  Please feel free to share your piece of...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


Could you be more specific on how the hands on this piece are incorrect? It seems that the hands are similar to @mroatman's Q4-51 piece. Am I mistaken? (First photo is the piece in question) EDIT: It appears I was incorrect in the manufacturing date of the piece in question. It is manufactured in 1951 not in the "mid '50s" as my original post infers.
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> If you don't mind, to further my education, see if I can draw a picture of the analysis here and let me know if I understand. Does the missing date stamp mean the movement was produced during the war? Did this type of watch dial have its lume cleaned off, and the hands switched out in a canonical way at some point so that this becomes a correct type or are cathedral hands the original type? Or were the dial and hands made this way from the beginning? Does a 7 jeweled movement with no date stamp, dial with these hands and no lume tell you that this is a war time watch (with the bent lug in this case for good measure) that most likely has all parts truly original to the watch? Thanks as always.


I hope this will help. My understanding is that these dials are old re-prints or old 'repair dils'. Your was made to be later lumed. Mine is not lume version. Maybe lume was washed away from yours. The hamds are the correct for non-lume variant.


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## Odessa200

steros said:


> This one I'm happy to post the link to because I'm not trying to buy it. What is this? Does it have an original accessory? For hunters???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VTG Luch Revolver Drum Hunting Wrist Watch Protected Soviet Quartz RARE SERVISED | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VTG Luch Revolver Drum Hunting Wrist Watch Protected Soviet Quartz RARE SERVISED at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


its a rare Hunter Luch.

still not cool to post links. It is not about you but about the others. Someone maybe thinking about buying it&#8230;.


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Are the hands on this watch good? I mean the second hand primarily, should it be black? Also, unfortunately no movement shot.
> 
> View attachment 15964665
> 
> 
> View attachment 15964668
> 
> 
> View attachment 15964669


no. It is the wrong hand. Should be red and different shape. Dial has faded brand name.


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## Odessa200

Del


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## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Could you be more specific on how the hands on this piece are incorrect? It seems that the hands are similar to @mroatman's Q4-51 piece. Am I mistaken? (First photo is the piece in question) EDIT: It appears I was incorrect in the manufacturing date of the piece in question. It is manufactured in 1951 not in the "mid '50s" as my original post infers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


i think hands are right for ZChZ for this time period


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> i think hands are right for ZChZ for this time period


Odessa, is it unusual for a watch to be missing the screws on the movement located bottom left in the first photo? I've seen a couple other Type 1s on this thread missing screws in a similar location but I'm not sure if that is normal. Any red flags on the movement?

(You really should charge commission. Lol)

Thanks as always.
















Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Odessa, is it unusual for a watch to be missing the screws on the movement located bottom left in the first photo? I've seen a couple other Type 1s on this thread missing screws in a similar location but I'm not sure if that is normal. Any red flags on the movement?
> 
> (You really should charge commission. Lol)
> 
> Thanks as always.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


1st let me say that I have a lot to learn about the Type1. There are lots of nuances that I overlook cause I do not have deep knowledge.

screws are not needed in this case. These movements were installed in the standard pocket cases where the movement was loaded from the top and in this case attached to the case with the screws. But for the wrist watch case, where the movement is loaded from the bottom, adding screws will not make any different. Hence they are not there.

movement looks good to me.


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## Bsw_sc

Does this look original ? The pics are bad so that doesn't help but that paint on the hands seems odd. Can't telI if it's original coming off or if someone painted them ? Does appear to be a military issue according to the dial ?


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## Odessa200

Bsw_sc said:


> Does this look original ? The pics are bad so that doesn't help but that paint on the hands seems odd. Can't telI if it's original coming off or if someone painted them ? Does appear to be a military issue according to the dial ?
> 
> View attachment 15965224
> View attachment 15965225


Someone painted the hands. Seconds hand is wrong.


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## Bsw_sc

Odessa200 said:


> Someone painted the hands. Seconds hand is wrong.


Ah ha, thank you for that


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I hope this will help. My understanding is that these dials are old re-prints or old 'repair dils'. Your was made to be later lumed. Mine is not lume version. Maybe lume was washed away from yours. The hamds are the correct for non-lume variant.
> View attachment 15964848


Thank you for this. Do you have any idea why some movements have a date stamp and others do not?


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> i think hands are right for ZChZ for this time period


Apologies, I tried and meant well but really have a long way to go.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Apologies, I tried and meant well but really have a long way to go.


you maybe right and I maybe wrong. Just viriety of opinions


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thank you for this. Do you have any idea why some movements have a date stamp and others do not?


i do not think there is a definitive answer to this. Back then there was no standard. At one time in the 30s they started stamping the dates. Then during the war stopped. Probably in order not to waste time for this extra operation plus stamping the day requires planning (knowing how many watches you will make in any given quarter). That was complicated during the war/evacuation so no dates. 
Then foe many years they stamped all the movement and only stopped in the late 50s. Probably because the volumes of watches were so great that it became difficult to know exact numbers and stamp right number of bridges.


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## discosmiter

Can someone confirm if this is Frankie or legit kirovskie Sputnik?
Crown is obviously not original, what about dial and hands??
Here is link to image: 


https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_Kirovskie-Sputnik-muski-sat-navijac-35mm-292664681.jpg





https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_Kirovskie-Sputnik-muski-sat-navijac-35mm-292664701.jpg



Thanks for the help

Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

discosmiter said:


> Can someone confirm if this is Frankie or legit kirovskie Sputnik?
> Crown is obviously not original, what about dial and hands??
> Here is link to image:
> 
> 
> https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_Kirovskie-Sputnik-muski-sat-navijac-35mm-292664681.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://static.limundoslike.com/originalslika_Kirovskie-Sputnik-muski-sat-navijac-35mm-292664701.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the help
> 
> Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk


Fake dial and wrong hands


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## jimzilla

Is this watch genuine?, thank you James
RARE Mechanical watch CRAB KIROVSKIE 16 jewels 1MHZ im KIROVA MADE in USSR + box | eBay


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## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Is this watch genuine?, thank you James
> RARE Mechanical watch CRAB KIROVSKIE 16 jewels 1MHZ im KIROVA MADE in USSR + box | eBay


Of corse not.
Wrong hands, wrong crown, home made gilding and on top of it&#8230;.. drum roll&#8230;.. dial for 228 rubles!





__





Циферблат часовой «Кировский» желтый


Циферблат для наручных часов «Кировский» желтый




75sec.com





Igor (the seller), if you read this: shame on you!


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Циферблат часовой «Кировский» желтый
> 
> 
> Циферблат для наручных часов «Кировский» желтый
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 75sec.com


I was wondering where these dials were coming from. This hobby is amazing, to try to explain to someone in a more prosperous country that given what would seem the relatively small sums involved it still pays to create and sell a fake dial for a bastardized Soviet watch. 3 USD to make what looks like a pretty nice dial, just amazing.


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## jimzilla

I thought it looked too good to be true, and the price!
As always,thank you so much Odessa200


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## Fcustoms3166

Rare montre mécanique homme Raketa Sturmanskie, bracelet neuf,2020 #1612201 | eBay


Les meilleures offres pour Rare montre mécanique homme Raketa Sturmanskie, bracelet neuf,2020 #1612201 sont sur eBay ✓ Comparez les prix et les spécificités des produits neufs et d'occasion ✓ Pleins d'articles en livraison gratuite!



www.ebay.fr





Is this watch legit? This guy sells a bunch of old stuff from the USSR, mostly watches, but I've never heard of a "Raketa Sturmanskie", afaik they're two different brands right?? Could somebody explain if it happened to be legit how come it's a "Raketa Sturmanskie"? Btw the movement is apparently a legit Raketa movement. If you guys could help this noobie out it'd be much appreciated. Thanks guys!


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## Odessa200

Fcustoms3166 said:


> Rare montre mécanique homme Raketa Sturmanskie, bracelet neuf,2020 #1612201 | eBay
> 
> 
> Les meilleures offres pour Rare montre mécanique homme Raketa Sturmanskie, bracelet neuf,2020 #1612201 sont sur eBay ✓ Comparez les prix et les spécificités des produits neufs et d'occasion ✓ Pleins d'articles en livraison gratuite!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.fr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this watch legit? This guy sells a bunch of old stuff from the USSR, mostly watches, but I've never heard of a "Raketa Sturmanskie", afaik they're two different brands right?? Could somebody explain if it happened to be legit how come it's a "Raketa Sturmanskie"? Btw the movement is apparently a legit Raketa movement. If you guys could help this noobie out it'd be much appreciated. Thanks guys!


no. Fake. Chinese case, crown and hands, fake dial. On a fake dial you can write whatever you want (or rather what tourists would buy).


----------



## Fcustoms3166

Odessa200 said:


> no. Fake. Chinese case, crown and hands, fake dial. On a fake dial you can write whatever you want (or rather what tourists would buy).


Thanks very much for your reply, yeah it seemed bogus to me and I'm a noob lol. This guy has a bunch of different "Raketas" all at the same price.


----------



## palletwheel

This looks really great. But is it a redial and relume job? Or did I potentially miss anything?


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> This looks really great. But is it a redial and relume job? Or did I potentially miss anything?


relume: maybe. Especially hands look a bit new. But nicely done.
dial is authentic.
movement: wrong ratchet wheel and balance and balance bridge


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> relume: maybe. Especially hands look a bit new. But nicely done.
> dial is authentic.
> movement: wrong ratchet wheel and balance and balance bridge


In your opinion on balance is it worth buying anyway? Do you think the watch historically reflects someone's upgrades/repairs? Or someone put this package together? This is a hard question, but if you have an intuition about it I'd consider it worthwhile hearing.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> In your opinion on balance is it worth buying anyway? Do you think the watch historically reflects someone's upgrades/repairs? Or someone put this package together? This is a hard question, but if you have an intuition about it I'd consider it worthwhile hearing.


if the price is right I would buy it. Nice watch. Switching the balance can be done and it will be a great watch!


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## Bsw_sc

Came across this one for sale online with the 3133 movement. Pictures aren't good as usual it seems but thoughts on legitimate or not ?


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> if the price is right I would buy it. Nice watch. Switching the balance can be done and it will be a great watch!


Thanks very much. Do you know what year the factory switched over to this later type of balance? Does this kind of change represent a typical repair back in the day if something happened to the balance spring? Ditto the ratchet wheel? Just trying to get a sense if it could be an old repair(s). When it comes to movements, I think there's an interesting fine line between conserving fine old repairs as part of the past in a well preserved watch, vs something that's just been bastardized and should be undone.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks very much. Do you know what year the factory switched over to this later type of balance? Does this kind of change represent a typical repair back in the day if something happened to the balance spring? Ditto the ratchet wheel? Just trying to get a sense if it could be an old repair(s). When it comes to movements, I think there's an interesting fine line between conserving fine old repairs as part of the past in a well preserved watch, vs something that's just been bastardized and should be undone.


They switched to the screw-less balance, i think, in the 70s. This balance is way too young for the watch from 50s. Of course it is a substitution during repair. The repair could have been done in the 80s, 90s, or just yesterday. That is impossible to tell by the photo.

Ratchet wheel on Pobedas from 2MChZ from the 50s should have the text ПОБЕДА. The fonts are a bit different between each factory. Some are more square some more elongated. Here is my movement from same watch that I think is correct.


----------



## Bsw_sc

Bsw_sc said:


> Came across this one for sale online with the 3133 movement. Pictures aren't good as usual it seems but thoughts on legitimate or not ?
> View attachment 15973463
> 
> View attachment 15973462


bump


----------



## MattBrace

Bsw_sc said:


> Came across this one for sale online with the 3133 movement. Pictures aren't good as usual it seems but thoughts on legitimate or not ?
> View attachment 15973463
> 
> View attachment 15973462


An original Classic case example, from around 93' 
Note that a lume baton has come loose from the dial.

Cheers...


----------



## Bsw_sc

MattBrace said:


> An original Classic case example, from around 93'
> Note that a lume baton has come loose from the dial.
> 
> Cheers...


Thank you ! Seller is asking $50 which seems like a really good price for this one (solely based off what I see others selling for and admittedly know nothing about this watch). He says it keeps perfect time and all of the functions are working properly. But resetting that lume piece seems easy enough, especially since it already has the holes in the dial where the tabs would sit ...


----------



## Odessa200

Bsw_sc said:


> Thank you ! Seller is asking $50 which seems like a really good price for this one (solely based off what I see others selling for and admittedly know nothing about this watch). He says it keeps perfect time and all of the functions are working properly. But resetting that lume piece seems easy enough, especially since it already has the holes in the dial where the tabs would sit ...


Personally I think the exterior of f the watch is a bit&#8230;used too much. $50 for a movement is not bad. Maybe if you clean the watch up, polish crystal, fix dial it still can be used. The biggest problem for you will be opening and closing this watch! Super tight back. Unless it was opened many times before you.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys,

Someone know if this is a franken? Can't find in the catalogs, i see this dial on a 470 case, but not in this case. Also, what type of case is that? Is a 020?

Thank you in advance comrades


----------



## mariomart

Victorv said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Someone know if this is a franken? Can't find in the catalogs, i see this dial on a 470 case, but not in this case. Also, what type of case is that? Is a 020?
> 
> Thank you in advance comrades


I think this started life as a model 470305, and the dial and movement then transferred into an 020 (or 420) case.

Here is what an original 470305 looked like (photo courtesy of Vostok Amphibia CCCP )


----------



## Victorv

mariomart said:


> I think this started life as a model 470305, and the dial and movement then transferred into an 020 (or 420) case.
> 
> Here is what an original 470305 looked like (photo courtesy of Vostok Amphibia CCCP )
> 
> View attachment 15975855


Thank you so much Mario

I was thinking the same, found the combination of dial and hands on a 470 case but not in a 020 or 420


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> Someone know if this is a franken? Can't find in the catalogs, i see this dial on a 470 case, but not in this case. Also, what type of case is that? Is a 020?
> 
> Thank you in advance comrades


Victorv, here's the (bad) catalogue image, this dial is only found in a 470 case AFAIK...


----------



## Victorv

Avidfan said:


> Victorv, here's the (bad) catalogue image, this dial is only found in a 470 case AFAIK...
> 
> View attachment 15975902


Thank you so much @Avidfan

So i can conclude, with yours and Mario's thoughts that this combination belongs only to a 470 case, so i'm going to search a 470 case and defranken this beauty

Many thanks guys


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Thank you so much @Avidfan
> 
> So i can conclude, with yours and Mario's thoughts that this combination belongs only to a 470 case, so i'm going to search a 470 case and defranken this beauty
> 
> Many thanks guys


Good luck with the search! 470 cases are hard to find...


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> They switched to the screw-less balance, i think, in the 70s. This balance is way too young for the watch from 50s. Of course it is a substitution during repair. The repair could have been done in the 80s, 90s, or just yesterday. That is impossible to tell by the photo.
> 
> Ratchet wheel on Pobedas from 2MChZ from the 50s should have the text ПОБЕДА. The fonts are a bit different between each factory. Some are more square some more elongated. Here is my movement from same watch that I think is correct.
> View attachment 15973861


Many thanks for this, appreciated. Since the rest of the watch is in such wonderful shape I'm going to buy it. If you happen to know who might have these parts, and in good shape as the balance spring and wheel condition is so critical, please let me know.


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone know anything about this ZIM:

















??


----------



## Straight_time

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello comrades. I apparently missed the Type 1 section of this thread. I'm a bit disappointed that my previous inquiry didn't work out but I'm curious about this one. The hands seem right from the catalogs that I've read about. I've bought from this seller before and they claim that this type 1 is completely original but I value everyone's opinions here as you know more than me. I'm primarily concerned with the crown. Do later (mid '50s) Type 1s have different crowns than the earlier "onion" crowns? Or has the crown been replaced? It also seems to be missing a couple of screws in the movement. Would these be replaceable? Does this devalue the piece a bit?
> 
> I've realized that I've asked many questions but I really appreciate everyone's feedback. I strive to learn. Many thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Sorry for chiming in late, but I don't visit the forum very often these days.

The watch shown is a franken because in post-war years only ChChZ was still producing _wrist_watches based on the Type-1 caliber.
Here we have a correct 1GChZ Type-1 case/dial/hands combo (the crown is most likely a later replacement, though), but a 1951 ZChZ movement (named and marked "ChK-6" by then) is to be found in _pocket_ watches only.

About datestamps:

1GChZ began putting datestamps in 1937 in a Q-Y format, then switched to Q-YY in 1940 until evacuation; production of Type-1s never resumed there. As far as I can recall datestamps are always present in this timeframe; there are examples lacking the factory logo instead;

2GChZ put datestamps since the 1936 beginning in a YYYY format until evacuation; after reinstallation as Factory 53 they used the same format in 1943 and 1944, then switched to YYYY-Q in 1945 and 1946, when production ceased;

ChChZ movements only carried a serial number during war years, and are therefore easily recognizable just because of this feature; datestamps first appeared in 1946 in a YY-Q format, and factory logo the following year; production ceased in 1949 or 1950;

ZChZ put datestamps since the 1942 beginning until circa 1960 in a Q-YY format; similarly to Chistopol, factory logo first appeared in 1947.


----------



## palletwheel

Straight_time said:


> Sorry for chiming in late, but I don't visit the forum very often these days.
> 
> The watch shown is a franken because in post-war years only ChChZ was still producing _wrist_watches based on the Type-1 caliber.
> Here we have a correct 1GChZ Type-1 case/dial/hands combo (the crown is most likely a later replacement, though), but a 1951 ZChZ movement (named and marked "ChK-6" by then) is to be found in _pocket_ watches only.
> 
> About datestamps:
> 
> 1GChZ began putting datestamps in 1937 in a Q-Y format, then switched to Q-YY in 1940 until evacuation; production of Type-1s never resumed there. As far as I can recall datestamps are always present in this timeframe; there are examples lacking the factory logo instead;
> 
> 2GChZ put datestamps since the 1936 beginning in a YYYY format until evacuation; after reinstallation as Factory 53 they used the same format in 1943 and 1944, then switched to YYYY-Q in 1945 and 1946, when production ceased;
> 
> ChChZ movements only carried a serial number during war years, and are therefore easily recognizable just because of this feature; datestamps first appeared in 1946 in a YY-Q format, and factory logo the following year; production ceased in 1949 or 1950;
> 
> ZChZ put datestamps since the 1942 beginning until circa 1960 in a Q-YY format; similarly to Chistopol, factory logo first appeared in 1947.


So the based on what you are saying, given the movement stamp and no date, could this movement be securely dated to 1936?


----------



## Tianlung4028

Straight_time said:


> Sorry for chiming in late, but I don't visit the forum very often these days.
> 
> The watch shown is a franken because in post-war years only ChChZ was still producing _wrist_watches based on the Type-1 caliber.
> Here we have a correct 1GChZ Type-1 case/dial/hands combo (the crown is most likely a later replacement, though), but a 1951 ZChZ movement (named and marked "ChK-6" by then) is to be found in _pocket_ watches only.


I'm a little confused. The piece in question is advertised as a Zlatoust piece and I used mroatman's Zlatoust Q4-51 piece as a reference (screen grab) and this piece is a wristwatch. Are you saying that mroatman's piece has been re-cased as well? Or is something wrong with the stamps on the piece in question?

Thanks for helping me understand.









Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> I'm a little confused. The piece in question is advertised as a Zlatoust piece and I used mroatman's Zlatoust Q4-51 piece as a reference (screen grab) and this piece is a wristwatch. Are you saying that mroatman's piece has been re-cased as well? Or is something wrong with the stamps on the piece in question?
> 
> Thanks for helping me understand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk


Yes, recased. Here is mine ZChZ movement in the pocket case. The dial of these watches has 'Zlatoustovskiy Watch Factory' writing.


----------



## davxls

Does this case back on a Komandirskie exist from factory? Never seen it before and it was hard to Google because of the u-boat and Vostok in the same phrase...


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> They switched to the screw-less balance, i think, in the 70s. This balance is way too young for the watch from 50s. Of course it is a substitution during repair. The repair could have been done in the 80s, 90s, or just yesterday. That is impossible to tell by the photo.
> 
> Ratchet wheel on Pobedas from 2MChZ from the 50s should have the text ПОБЕДА. The fonts are a bit different between each factory. Some are more square some more elongated. Here is my movement from same watch that I think is correct.
> View attachment 15973861


I got lucky and just found a donor watch for the parts. Thanks for the education, I had no idea about the script changes on the ratchet wheel, that really helped. The movement looks like it's completely intact, comparing your picture and the one for the movement it looks all original. Given that, what do you suggest as a restoration approach? Just replace the offending parts, take best of both but keep the bridges with dates and stamp, or just do a movement replacement (assuming the date matches when this watch was introduced and the movement runs well)?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I got lucky and just found a donor watch for the parts. Thanks for the education, I had no idea about the script changes on the ratchet wheel, that really helped. The movement looks like it's completely intact, comparing your picture and the one for the movement it looks all original. Given that, what do you suggest as a restoration approach? Just replace the offending parts, take best of both but keep the bridges with dates and stamp, or just do a movement replacement (assuming the date matches when this watch was introduced and the movement runs well)?


fantastic looking movement! I would test it on the timegrapher and if it works well (and I suspect It will outperform the other one with the wrong balance) I would just do a dial/hands swap. Then you will have a correct copper-dial Pobeda. 1954 os just fine. Mine is 1955.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> fantastic looking movement! I would test it on the timegrapher and if it works well (and I suspect It will outperform the other one with the wrong balance) I would just do a dial/hands swap. Then you will have a correct copper-dial Pobeda. 1954 os just fine. Mine is 1955.


The current movement is dated 1958. Is that a correct date for this watch? Do you know when they may have started and ended production of it?

I don't have the skill set yet to work on this, so I'll leave it alone until then, or find a really good watchmaker to do it, but the key thing is I have the parts so I can do it anytime. So to start me off, what's the right way to open the back of these? I don't see an obvious indent in the back from photos for a case opener, but I assume there is a good way to wedge one in.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> The current movement is dated 1958. Is that a correct date for this watch? Do you know when they may have started and ended production of it?
> 
> I don't have the skill set yet to work on this, so I'll leave it alone until then, or find a really good watchmaker to do it, but the key thing is I have the parts so I can do it anytime. So to start me off, what's the right way to open the back of these? I don't see an obvious indent in the back from photos for a case opener, but I assume there is a good way to wedge one in.


1958 is still inside the correct time period. I am just guessing here but these watches were made in the 50s.

the right way to open these is to use watchmaker knife. There is a small notch on the back cover. If the back is put correctly the notch will be across the crown. But the back can be placed anyway so the notch can be anywhere. Worst place in under the crown. Then it is harder to get to it cause crown abstracts it. When you locate the notch you press the knife into it and just press while controling the knife. The back will come off but you need to stop the knife from sliding across the movement.


----------



## Alfajuj

Hi guys, I'm looking at acquiring this early post-Soviet Scuba no-date. It has an uncommon bezel and it seems to be in a brass case. 
I read somewhere that there were some brass Amphibia cases with the code 201 which appeared briefly in the 80s or 90s. Could it actually be original?
Anyway, aren't these early no-date Scubas pretty hard to find?


----------



## Avidfan

Alfajuj said:


> Hi guys, I'm looking at acquiring this early post-Soviet Scuba no-date. It has an uncommon bezel and it seems to be in a brass case.
> I read somewhere that there were some brass Amphibia cases with the code 201 which appeared briefly in the 80s or 90s. Could it actually be original?
> Anyway, aren't these early no-date Scubas pretty hard to find?
> View attachment 15979674
> 
> 
> View attachment 15979679


Hello Alfajuj 

I'm afraid this is a franken IMHO, it's not a plated brass Type 20(1) Amphibia case but the much more common plated brass Type 70 Komandirskie case, notice that it has the regular size Komandirskie caseback that will only allow the fitting of a 2409A or 2414A movement and the case has only one notch cut into it for the caseback tab.

These large dot Scuba Dude dials are most often seen in the post-Soviet Type 270 Amphibia case so it's easy enough to restore if you can find the appropriate case...

Here's a page from the 2001 Vostok catalogue that features a number of Type 70 Komandirskie cases, Vostok seemed to fit whatever bezel they had on these...


----------



## steros

What is correct/original on this one, if anything?








Vostok Amphibia Antimagnetic 2409 Soviet Russian Vintage USSR Diver Wrist Watch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vostok Amphibia Antimagnetic 2409 Soviet Russian Vintage USSR Diver Wrist Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Avidfan

davxls said:


> Does this case back on a Komandirskie exist from factory? Never seen it before and it was hard to Google because of the u-boat and Vostok in the same phrase...
> View attachment 15978618


Hello davxls 

I've seen these before but don't know where they belong but they were obviously made for export I think in the 1990's, I thought the meaning of 10000 might mean a limited edition of that number but I've seen examples with much higher serial numbers...









(image eBay)


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> What is correct/original on this one, if anything?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok Amphibia Antimagnetic 2409 Soviet Russian Vintage USSR Diver Wrist Watch | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vostok Amphibia Antimagnetic 2409 Soviet Russian Vintage USSR Diver Wrist Watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Hello steros , this is one to avoid IMHO, fake dial, fake bezel, modern short lume hands, very old pre-1985 movement with serial number with another serial number on the caseback, also Komandirskie crown etc...

From the 1990 catalogue... original dials never feature the Russian word for "Amphibia"...


----------



## davxls

Avidfan said:


> Hello davxls
> 
> I've seen these before but don't know where they belong but they were obviously made for export I think in the 1990's, I thought the meaning of 10000 might mean a limited edition of that number but I've seen examples with much higher serial numbers...
> 
> View attachment 15979984
> 
> (image eBay)


Thank you for your answer. Would be interesting to know more about it. But it's a cool back case.


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Hello steros , this is one to avoid IMHO, fake dial, fake bezel, modern short lume hands, very old pre-1985 movement with serial number with another serial number on the caseback, also Komandirskie crown etc...
> 
> From the 1990 catalogue... original dials never feature the Russian word for "Amphibia"...
> 
> View attachment 15980028


Just to add: when looking at any given watch, look at the sellers other items. This store has 90% of fakes! Do I need to say more?


----------



## davxls

Could the hands on this Zvezda be original? 







I've read some where that it was produced with different types of hands but I've only seen these:


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> Could the hands on this Zvezda be original?
> View attachment 15980500
> I've read some where that it was produced with different types of hands but I've only seen these:
> View attachment 15980501


unlikely.


----------



## Ligavesh

I love the dial on this Vostok, but I doubt it's the original case - or maybe it is? Anyone know something about this?


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> I love the dial on this Vostok, but I doubt it's the original case - or maybe it is? Anyone know something about this?
> 
> View attachment 15981959


I've only ever seen this dial (code 327) in titanium nitride cases with golden hands that match the dial, here's a 819327 on a page from the 2001 catalogue...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> I've only ever seen this dial (code 327) in titanium nitride cases with golden hands that match the dial, here's a 819327 on a page from the 2001 catalogue...
> 
> View attachment 15982161


So the hands are probably wrong, the case is the "golden" one, just faded so you don't notice the color on the photo. But the hands are silver, also the lume on the hands and dial don't match.


----------



## Ligavesh

Btw, I also found this version on ebay, probably wrong case, hands?


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Btw, I also found this version on ebay, probably wrong case, hands?
> 
> View attachment 15982223
> 
> 
> View attachment 15982224
> 
> 
> View attachment 15982225


Another franken IMHO, the 327 dial dates from the second half of the 1990's to the early 2000's, this case is from the 1970's...chrome hands are wrong IMHO

Here's a better catalogue image of a watch with this dial...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> Another franken IMHO, the 327 dial dates from the second half of the 1990's to the early 2000's, this case is from the 1970's...chrome hands are wrong IMHO
> 
> Here's a better catalogue image of a watch with this dial...
> 
> View attachment 15982335


Hmm, could be transformed easiliy, there's lots of parts... I assume mine has wrong second hand color -but it could be just faded away - ditto gilding off the hands...

Anyway, I'll keep an eye on part I could use


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Hmm, could be transformed aesiliy,t there's lots of parts... I assume mine has wrong second hand color -but it could be just faded wawy - diito gilding fron hands...
> 
> Anyaway, I'll keep an eye on part I could use


Seconds hand might be correct, in the late 1990's Vostok occasionally put silver seconds hands on their watches, these were just bare metal hands with no paint put on...

But I think red would look best...


----------



## Ligavesh

Ligavesh said:


> Hmm, could be transformed aesiliy,t there's lots of parts... I assume mine has wrong second hand color -but it could be just faded wawy - diito gilding fron hands...
> 
> Anyaway, I'll keep an eye on part I could use


"Frin" ??? Wanted to write 'the other'


----------



## palletwheel

Here's another Pobeda I came across. There's nothing I can exactly pin my unease about the dial of this watch, could the dial numerals be restored? It's getting hard to tell if I'm getting too paranoid or not enough, lol.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's another Pobeda I came across. There's nothing I can exactly pin my unease about the dial of this watch, could the dial numerals be restored? It's getting hard to tell if I'm getting too paranoid or not enough, lol.


All legit as far as I can see. Including dial and movement


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> All legit as far as I can see. Including dial and movement


Thanks. I'm still crawling when it comes to this, but at least it seems I'm crawling in the right direction. Those 3 USD dials freek me out, it wouldn't take much to put a little artificial age on them either. But maybe it hasn't become as sophisticated as that yet, but you tell me


----------



## Ligavesh

This looks good, or?


----------



## elsoldemayo

I don't see any obvious issues with it.


----------



## Ligavesh

elsoldemayo said:


> I don't see any obvious issues with it.


Aside from the price! 

Btw, I spotted this watch, but it has got to be a franken, right?




























I've seen these "Guard's" ("ГВАРДИЯ") watches with post-Soviet dials (i.e. post-Soviet watches), usually with some military symbol, and this one doesn't have any _and_ it has "Made in USSR" on the dial. Surely a dial from an older watch in the case of another, newer? Crown obviously replaced.


----------



## dudelo

Hi guys, any info on this one? cant seem to find it anyware...maybe a rewritten dial? thx


----------



## davxls

dudelo said:


> Hi guys, any info on this one? cant seem to find it anyware...maybe a rewritten dial? thx
> 
> View attachment 15987858
> View attachment 15987859


I'm no expert so I'll leave that to others, but you can check Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection to see if your watch is represented there. If it is, it's probably legit.


----------



## Odessa200

davxls said:


> I'm no expert so I'll leave that to others, but you can check Watches of the USSR | Dashiell's Collection to see if your watch is represented there. If it is, it's probably legit.


dial is a reprint. Maybe homemade. Maybe small artel.
Movement has a shockproof balance while it needs the old not shockproof


----------



## Ligavesh

Is the golden second hand here correct, or should it be black?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Is the golden second hand here correct, or should it be black?
> 
> View attachment 15988595


All 3 should be blued as far as I know


----------



## steros

Unusual coloring? Modified/restored dial?


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> All legit as far as I can see. Including dial and movement


Just to let you know, I did buy this  Thanks again for the insights.


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Unusual coloring? Modified/restored dial?
> View attachment 15989116


Looks ok to me, compare with the example on Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## tranzchina

Hi all, am looking for any possible info on this. Could this be legit at all? It is marked as a 'Druzhba' or 'Friendhsip' watch brand and the octagon case makes sense, but never seen a dial like this. Has anyone?























Seems like a strange 'fake' to make seeing as the guy only wants 20 USD for it. Appreciate any help/comments.

Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Looks real to me. Probably from a small batch for local market


----------



## tranzchina

Odessa200 said:


> Looks real to me. Probably from a small batch for local market


hard to tell. I found this on another post








So maybe possible they made ones without the fancy dial


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> hard to tell. I found this on another post
> View attachment 15993625
> 
> So maybe possible they made ones without the fancy dial


personally I think this watch is way more interesting with the Chinese text, flags, etc. otherwise it is a rather simple small watch. If you collect early Vostoks then get it. Otherwise I would invest these 20$ towards the Druzhba with Flags.


----------



## tranzchina

Odessa200 said:


> personally I think this watch is way more interesting with the Chinese text, flags, etc. otherwise it is a rather simple small watch. If you collect early Vostoks then get it. Otherwise I would invest these 20$ towards the Druzhba with Flags.


agreed. but this is working, so could also buy a non working version with Chinese dial and swap out😊


----------



## nambinik

Hello comrades. I have a question about the authenticity of this NOS komanderskie with documents produced for Vremir. When checking the 1990 catalogue, the bezel of the watches does not match the bezel in the catalogue. Was this specially made for Vremir or is it a franken?

Photos of watches:































Photo from 90 catalogue:


----------



## Avidfan

nambinik said:


> Hello comrades. I have a question about the authenticity of this NOS komanderskie with documents produced for Vremir. When checking the 1990 catalogue, the bezel of the watches does not match the bezel in the catalogue. Was this specially made for Vremir or is it a franken?
> 
> Photos of watches:
> 
> View attachment 15995326
> View attachment 15995327
> View attachment 15995328
> View attachment 15995331
> 
> 
> Photo from 90 catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 15995333


The 289 dial on your watch was used for a couple of years in approx.1992-1993, the bezel with triangles is often found on watches from 1989-1990, your paperwork is dated 1990...this is typical of watches made after the end of the USSR when Vostok were using up as many obsolete parts as they could to turn them into dollars...

Two other catalogue images of a 341289 with two more bezel variants...

1990 catalogue...










1993 catalogue...


----------



## 979greenwich

I would say that Vostok factory configurations/references went into the bin along with the former USSR.


----------



## Ligavesh

Could this be a well preserved dial or is it definitely a new (or re-) print?










There are two cracks in the paint above 12 and under 12 - if that means something.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Could this be a well preserved dial or is it definitely a new (or re-) print?
> 
> View attachment 15996564
> 
> 
> There are two cracks in the paint above 12 and under 12 - if that means something.


i share your concerns. Looks like a re-print. Maybe an old reprint. Here is how the authentic text looks like. All letters are properly positioned, not touching anything, not leaning one way or another, etc.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> i share your concerns. Looks like a re-print. Maybe an old reprint. Here is how the authentic text looks like. All letters are properly positioned, not touching anything, not leaning one way or another, etc.
> View attachment 15996593


eh, not great, not terrible


----------



## Ligavesh

What aboit this Rodina:










MrOatman has a white variant on his site, could this one be legit, or a repainted dial?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What aboit this Rodina:
> 
> View attachment 16000854
> 
> 
> MrOatman has a white variant on his site, could this one be legit, or a repainted dial?


Looks repainted to me


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Looks repainted to me


yeah, the letters look weird

shame, cause the case is spotless


----------



## palletwheel

Ligavesh said:


> yeah, the letters look weird
> 
> shame, cause the case is spotless


There's a general problem I've noticed with Rodinas overall, and that is a lot of redialed ones. I wouldn't have thought Rodinas would be worth that much effort to do that, but it appears to be the case.









New! Rodina automatic Dial 26.8 mm Watch Face Dial USSR Russian Free Shipping | eBay


I will try to solve any problems. All the details you can see on my photos.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Ligavesh

palletwheel said:


> There's a general problem I've noticed with Rodinas overall, and that is a lot of redialed ones. I wouldn't have thought Rodinas would be worth that much effort to do that, but it appears to be the case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New! Rodina automatic Dial 26.8 mm Watch Face Dial USSR Russian Free Shipping | eBay
> 
> 
> I will try to solve any problems. All the details you can see on my photos.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


The seller I found has a few other watches that look a bit weird or 'off' when you look at the dial, for example:


----------



## xsagasta

Ligavesh said:


> The seller I found has a few other watches that look a bit weird or 'off' when you look at the dial, for example:
> 
> View attachment 16001847
> 
> 
> View attachment 16001848


I recognize these photos, the seller claims that the "dial is restored" in all of them. That's the description he/she puts in every watch, in capital letters... a not-so-great repaint job, in my opinion.


----------



## Ligavesh

xsagasta said:


> I recognize these photos, the seller claims that the "dial is restored" in all of them. That's the description he/she puts in every watch, in capital letters... a not-so-great repaint job, in my opinion.


Heh, I bought a couple 'unrestored' ones, I especially watched out for that.


----------



## bingos

Does anyone have any information on this watch? It's been laying around my house for a very long time and I don't know anything about it other than that it belonged to my grandfather. Is there any way of finding out when it was made or whether it's real?


----------



## Odessa200

bingos said:


> Does anyone have any information on this watch? It's been laying around my house for a very long time and I don't know anything about it other than that it belonged to my grandfather. Is there any way of finding out when it was made or whether it's real?
> 
> View attachment 16002690
> 
> View attachment 16002695


Nice looking Raketa 'baltica'. Needs a new crystal (and probably a service if you plan on using it). It is real. Made by Petrodvoretz watch factory in the late 60s. If you open it you should see a movement like this


----------



## AaParker

palletwheel said:


> There's a general problem I've noticed with Rodinas overall, and that is a lot of redialed ones. I wouldn't have thought Rodinas would be worth that much effort to do that, but it appears to be the case.
> 
> http://[URL]https://www.ebay.com/it...SR-Russian-Free-Shipping-/274102397107?_ul=IN


Yes, it's a shame there are so many fake dials out there for the Rodinas.


----------



## palletwheel

Came across this Pobeda with a screw down caseback. It's supposed to be Chistopol, are the movement/rachetwheel markings correct? Otherwise it is a 2603 as appropriate. Also in question is the crown. Interestingly enough @mroatman has a flatter crown for the one for this dial, but the more bulbous one for a 34K and other screw down caseback types. Opinions please?





__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com









__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com










Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com









__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Came across this Pobeda with a screw down caseback. It's supposed to be Chistopol, are the movement/rachetwheel markings correct? Otherwise it is a 2603 as appropriate. Also in question is the crown. Interestingly enough @mroatman has a flatter crown for the one for this dial, but the more bulbous one for a 34K and other screw down caseback types. Opinions please?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


I think the crown maybe from 1MChZ (I would actually ignore this fact cause it is hard to find a replacement anyway). Hard to tell. Here is mine from ChChZ. The balance is from 1MChZ. Here is a photo from ChChZ museum. You can see the crowns. ChChZ used parts from 1MChZ initially but from 1949 used their parts. Hence this balance cannon be on the watch from 1956.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I think the crown maybe from 1MChZ (I would actually ignore this fact cause it is hard to find a replacement anyway). Hard to tell. Here is mine from ChChZ. The balance is from 1MChZ. Here is a photo from ChChZ museum. You can see the crowns. ChChZ used parts from 1MChZ initially but from 1949 used their parts. Hence this balance cannon be on the watch from 1956.
> View attachment 16003287
> View attachment 16003291


I think some photos did not load. I can't quite follow your discussion. The crown is interesting, I can't make out from the museum photo if it's a little thicker, but the fact that all the other watches with screw down casebacks other than this in the @mroatman collection had them (and all were Chistopol) is interesting. I'd go along with it as long as the movement was ok. Is it? Many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I think some photos did not load. I can't quite follow your discussion. The crown is interesting, I can't make out from the museum photo if it's a little thicker, but the fact that all the other watches with screw down casebacks other than this in the @mroatman collection had them (and all were Chistopol) is interesting. I'd go along with it as long as the movement was ok. Is it? Many thanks!


photos load just fine for me. The crown looks a bit thicker in your watch but hard to tell. I would still get it.
Movement is correct except the balance.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> photos load just fine for me. The crown looks a bit thicker in your watch but hard to tell. I would still get it.
> Movement is correct except the balance.


Do you have a photo of the balance? All I see is a photo of a caseback and the museum watches. I'm on mobile so it could be me, but I don't normally have this problem, please let me know. I'm confused because I have this photo from ranfit, the balance looks fine (no shock vs shock protection, and shock protection is correct for this watch) but the ratchet wheel doesn't have "POBEDA" on the ranfit example.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Do you have a photo of the balance? All I see is a photo of a caseback and the museum watches. I'm on mobile so it could be me, but I don't normally have this problem, please let me know. I'm confused because I have this photo from ranfit, the balance looks fine (no shock vs shock protection, and shock protection is correct for this watch) but the ratchet wheel doesn't have "POBEDA" on the ranfit example.


the answer was s in your post . I am not talking about balance bridge but about the balance itself. Look at the number of screws and their locations and the shape of the cross bar in the Ranfit image and your. Each soviet factory had a unique pattern of these balancing screws. Ranfit is from Zim (strait cross bar and 12 equally spaced screws) from that time period. Yours is from 1MChZ (that can only be there for a zim done before 1949). Is this a big deal? You decide. I try to have all parts that relatively easy sourced correct. Such crown: hard to find. The ChChZ balance much easier. If you never paid attention to the balance cross bar and screws you may discover that many of your watches are a bit less correct that what you thought. Was it done deliberately? Of course not: such correctness is of no use for an average soviet watch user who only wanted the watch to be repaired with whatever balance the watchmaker had. Thanks (or not) for the soviet standardization system many parts from different factories are interchangeable.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> the answer was s in your post . I am not talking about balance bridge but about the balance itself. Look at the number of screws and their locations and the shape of the cross bar in the Ranfit image and your. Each soviet factory had a unique pattern of these balancing screws. Ranfit is from Zim (strait cross bar and 12 equally spaced screws) from that time period. Yours is from 1MChZ (that can only be there for a zim done before 1949). Is this a big deal? You decide. I try to have all parts that relatively easy sourced correct. Such crown: hard to find. The ChChZ balance much easier. If you never paid attention to the balance cross bar and screws you may discover that many of your watches are a bit less correct that what you thought. Was it done deliberately? Of course not: such correctness is of no use for an average soviet watch user who only wanted the watch to be repaired with whatever balance the watchmaker had. Thanks (or not) for the soviet standardization system many parts from different factories are interchangeable.


Awesome. Had no idea. Everytime you teach me something I would never have even thought of. If you can post the taxonomy of balance wheels for everyone that would be great (is 2MChZ same as ChChZ? - if it is then my last two Pobedas are correct). Yes, it is amazing that the Sovet system produced these unique factory to factory customizations (that can drive someone trying to reclaim history mad) that were also completely interchangeable. Any idea why they did such a thing (i.e. make such customizations in the first place)?

Almost last but not least though is the ratchet wheel. The Ranfit has stars and is dated 57, this one has "Pobeda" and is dated 56. Was there a change over in those years?

Finally, just to make life extra interesting, I noticed that Ranfit posted a 1MChZ with a flared crossbar but 12 symmetrically distributed rim screws. How common was that, or again was there a change over in years?

Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Awesome. Had no idea. Everytime you teach me something I would never have even thought of. If you can post the taxonomy of balance wheels for everyone that would be great (is 2MChZ same as ChChZ? - if it is then my last two Pobedas are correct). Yes, it is amazing that the Sovet system produced these unique factory to factory customizations (that can drive someone trying to reclaim history mad) that were also completely interchangeable. Any idea why they did such a thing (i.e. make such customizations in the first place)?
> 
> Almost last but not least though is the ratchet wheel. The Ranfit has stars and is dated 57, this one has "Pobeda" and is dated 56. Was there a change over in those years?
> 
> Finally, just to make life extra interesting, I noticed that Ranfit posted a 1MChZ with a flared crossbar but 12 symmetrically distributed rim screws. How common was that, or again was there a change over in years?
> 
> Thanks!


There were changes over the years and doing a complete taxonomy would take time. Maybe one day . But here is a quick comparison I have handy.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello Friends.

Can you give me some help with this Komandirskie? I've used mroatman's website to confirm some of the details on the hands (I love those necktie hands!) and dial but as always, I appreciate your input as I may have missed something.
Thanks!
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## 979greenwich

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello Friends.
> 
> Can you give me some help with this Komandirskie? I've used mroatman's website to confirm some of the details on the hands (I love those necktie hands!) and dial but as always, I appreciate your input as I may have missed something.
> Thanks!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I like it.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello Friends.
> 
> Can you give me some help with this Komandirskie? I've used mroatman's website to confirm some of the details on the hands (I love those necktie hands!) and dial but as always, I appreciate your input as I may have missed something.
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


looks authentic to me


----------



## jimzilla

Hello can someone give me the Part#'S for these two watches so I can label them correctly, thank you so much, James














h, James.


----------



## mariomart

jimzilla said:


> Hello can someone give me the Part#'S for these two watches so I can label them correctly, thank you so much, James
> View attachment 16007998
> View attachment 16008000
> h, James.
> View attachment 16008004


The Vostok is a Model 100001

The Poljot is a Model 1981640

The Sturmanskie is a Model 0411260


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you so much Mario, I hope you are doing well my friend, have a great day sir, James.


----------



## mariomart

jimzilla said:


> Thank you so much Mario, I hope you are doing well my friend, have a great day sir, James.


No problem mate


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone knows anything about this 17 jewels Poljot? The seller can't say much.




























I actually founf a very similar Sportivnie on MrOatman's site:










Could it be it's the same watch just named Poljot for export?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone knows anything about this 17 jewels Poljot? The seller can't say much.
> 
> View attachment 16012072
> 
> 
> View attachment 16012073
> 
> 
> View attachment 16012074
> 
> 
> I actually founf a very similar Sportivnie on MrOatman's site:
> 
> View attachment 16012093
> 
> 
> Could it be it's the same watch just named Poljot for export?


exactly. Great watch. Get it!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> exactly. Great watch. Get it!


Unfortunately some **** was quicker than me - even though I didn't wait a lot. Here's hoping he doesn't pay in 3 days and I can get the Poljot (he wants the whole lot with some dumb watches), but tough luck... I don't know, some people sleep on the classifieds, I wasn't even that late with my offer....


----------



## Ligavesh

Was there a golden Slava medical watch?



















I presume the second hand is wrong?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Was there a golden Slava medical watch?
> 
> View attachment 16019306
> 
> 
> View attachment 16019307
> 
> 
> I presume the second hand is wrong?


I am not sure about golden version but the dial is fake&#8230;.


----------



## palletwheel

I came across this Raketa, which looks promising, but not completely sure about the crown, and also not sure if these could also come with a 2609A. @mroatman has one but with a 2609B and hard for me to tell from his photo if I have the right crown:






Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## palletwheel

Is this Raketa Jeans legit? I never saw one with gold indices and handset. Plus the crown seems different too.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across this Raketa, which looks promising, but not completely sure about the crown, and also not sure if these could also come with a 2609A. @mroatman has one but with a 2609B and hard for me to tell from his photo if I have the right crown:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


Crown replaced. The rest is fine.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Is this Raketa Jeans legit? I never saw one with gold indices and handset. Plus the crown seems different too.


crown is wrong. Case should be gilded. The 1985 catalog shows both versions. I have a gilded one with gilded indexes and hands.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Crown replaced. The rest is fine.


Thanks as always for your tireless attention 

I have one general question about Raketa export watches. For those, did they use English markings on the movement (number of jewels etc) similar to Poljots or did Raketa use the same domestic movements with Cryllic markings? Similarly, were any markings on the case cover if applicable in English?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks as always for your tireless attention
> 
> I have one general question about Raketa export watches. For those, did they use English markings on the movement (number of jewels etc) similar to Poljots or did Raketa use the same domestic movements with Cryllic markings? Similarly, were any markings on the case cover if applicable in English?


Raketa did not use English (except on the dials). Maybe there were some models with English but I do not recall.Completely different from Poljot.


----------



## dutchassasin

well some export watches have English text on the cover and movement but not all.

Taken from this thread created by *schnurrp: A rare Raketa/Sekonda?*


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> well some export watches have English text on the cover and movement but not all.
> 
> Taken from this thread created by *schnurrp: A rare Raketa/Sekonda?*
> 
> View attachment 16022198


true. But this is rather exception rather than a rule like with 1MChZ.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Raketa did not use English (except on the dials). Maybe there were some models with English but I do not recall.Completely different from Poljot.


Thanks. Given that's the case let me please submit the following for your opinion.






Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


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## palletwheel

I came across the following early Vostok Precision. After reading endlessly about them I would say that the dial, case, handset, crown look good to me. The movement seems to pass all the tests, but there is one detail I'm not sure about. Is the rachet wheel a later replacement? The only thing different about it is the blue colored stars, but is it possible that by 1960 they started to do that? If I needed to replace it, I assume I can take it from a 2609A Volna, but can also use a 2609B Almaz?

Lastly, please have a close look at the balance spring. It sort of looks like someone messed with it a bit, the overcoil in particular looks a little problematic.

I really appreciate all the opinions. These are hard, so its easy for someone like me to make a mistake. Thanks much in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks. Given that's the case let me please submit the following for your opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


all good. Very nice Raketa.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across the following early Vostok Precision. After reading endlessly about them I would say that the dial, case, handset, crown look good to me. The movement seems to pass all the tests, but there is one detail I'm not sure about. Is the rachet wheel a later replacement? The only thing different about it is the blue colored stars, but is it possible that by 1960 they started to do that? If I needed to replace it, I assume I can take it from a 2609A Volna, but can also use a 2609B Almaz?
> 
> Lastly, please have a close look at the balance spring. It sort of looks like someone messed with it a bit, the overcoil in particular looks a little problematic.
> 
> I really appreciate all the opinions. These are hard, so its easy for someone like me to make a mistake. Thanks much in advance.


My opinion that this movement is not from the Precision Vostok (2809) but a Volna (2809A). The movement should be gilded or at least have 2809 stamp. Without any of these 2 aspects this is probably a Volna.

Ratchet wheel: you can wash away the blue color but why? Or you can use any ratchet from Almaz or Volna.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> My opinion that this movement is not from the Precision Vostok (2809) but a Volna (2809A). The movement should be gilded or at least have 2809 stamp. Without any of these 2 aspects this is probably a Volna.
> 
> Ratchet wheel: you can wash away the blue color but why? Or you can use any ratchet from Almaz or Volna.


First generation precision was from 57 - 60, not gilded and had quarter/year stamped. For the 2609A Volna the "A" in "_кАмня" _is rounded whereas in a true precision it is sharp, as in this example. This thread is invaluable:

_








three generations of Vostok Precision


I recently started a thread about some obscure details of Vostok Precision movement, which quickly moved to a discussion on how to distinguish a VP from a mule or franken. Honestly, I'm never sure, but some general trends still exist and today I made some photos to illustrate them. The first...




www.watchuseek.com




_
I agree with you about the rachet wheel, it's really the same exact part just blued. So yes, in this case I'm not inclined to stress out about it. But to be perfectly historically accurate I may do a long term search for a cheap messed up Volna or Almaz that has the part. Many thanks!


----------



## palletwheel

I came across this Mir. I don't know these, but from looking at the usual sources it looks promising. Opinions are as always appreciated.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across this Mir. I don't know these, but from looking at the usual sources it looks promising. Opinions are as always appreciated.


lovely. As far as I see all is right.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> lovely. As far as I see all is right.


Many thanks for those quick responses, thanks to you I can grab these before they are gone  One other question if I may. My Cyrillic is a work very much in progress, I can kind of get a sense, but what does the dial text under the "18 Jewels" translate to in English and what is it referring to?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Many thanks for those quick responses, thanks to you I can grab these before they are gone  One other question if I may. My Cyrillic is a work very much in progress, I can kind of get a sense, but what does the dial text under the "18 Jewels" translate to in English and what is it referring to?


Противоударные - shockproof


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends!
I came across this Komandirskie and would love your opinions. Seems to be mid 70s (or "third generation") but I haven't seen one with the stars painted red in the movement before. Was this done originally or was it added later? It also seems that the serial number is painted in red as well. It is stamped 2234 on the case. Thoughts? Would a 2234 have a stop second function as well?

Thanks as always your your wealth of knowledge.
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> I came across this Komandirskie and would love your opinions. Seems to be mid 70s (or "third generation") but I haven't seen one with the stars painted red in the movement before. Was this done originally or was it added later? It also seems that the serial number is painted in red as well. It is stamped 2234 on the case. Thoughts? Would a 2234 have a stop second function as well?
> 
> Thanks as always your your wealth of knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


In my view&#8230;
Seconds hand is wrong: should be w/o fancy tail
Movement has replaced bridge: all that I saw before had 18 jewels in russian on the main bridge.
red start and red number is obviously marketing move: should be easily wiped away with acetone!
2234 is correct but regardless of what the back cover has you need to reconfirm with the seller if the stop second works.


----------



## nambinik

Hello comrades. I'm looking to buy a poljot 3133 from the 80s. How does it look. I believe the silver dial POLJOT model with US10SR corresponds was available from 81-87. Everything checks out for me except the stamped 1-87 date. I haven't seen that in other versions of this model I've found on the internet. The golden wheels seem right if it is produced in 87.

Anything you guys see is wrong? Also is 300 Euro too much for this one?


----------



## Ligavesh

Without looking at the movement (cause there are no pictures of it and the owner apparently isn't a watch person - inherited from father), what do you think about this Poljot:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Without looking at the movement (cause there are no pictures of it and the owner apparently isn't a watch person - inherited from father), what do you think about this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 16028311
> 
> 
> View attachment 16028312


case is replaced (it is from Luch).


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> case is replaced (it is from Luch).


This one too:




























??


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This one too:
> 
> View attachment 16029906
> 
> 
> View attachment 16029907
> 
> 
> View attachment 16029910
> 
> 
> ??


no, this one is good


----------



## palletwheel

I came across what appears to be a 60s Poljot de Luxe automatic. I can't match it to anything in the @mroatman collection, but it looks quite reasonable, save for the possibility of the seconds hand being wrong. Please let me know what you all think.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across what appears to be a 60s Poljot de Luxe automatic. I can't match it to anything in the @mroatman collection, but it looks quite reasonable, save for the possibility of the seconds hand being wrong. Please let me know what you all think.


Wrong case. Here is the catalog.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16030192
> 
> 
> Wrong case. Here is the catalog.


Is the case later? Clearly the Soviet watch industry didn't kid around with interchangeability did they. Thanks as always.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Is the case later? Clearly the Soviet watch industry didn't kid around with interchangeability did they. Thanks as always.


Next page of the catalog has these cases. Same period. But the dial is different .


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Next page of the catalog has these cases. Same period. But the dial is different .


Here's another one I've been thinking on. The printing on the date wheel though looks pretty bad. I have hesitated asking, thinking it's not right, but @mroatman has a few like this so I figured I'd post it. By the way, could you please post that catalog you had? I went looking in my cache but I couldn't find it. If it's in the grand cache of catalogs in the sticky, I may have missed it if the title is hard for me to translate, so putting it here will still help and be appreciated. Many thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's another one I've been thinking on. The printing on the date wheel though looks pretty bad. I have hesitated asking, thinking it's not right, but @mroatman has a few like this so I figured I'd post it. By the way, could you please post that catalog you had? I went looking in my cache but I couldn't find it. If it's in the grand cache of catalogs in the sticky, I may have missed it if the title is hard for me to translate, so putting it here will still help and be appreciated. Many thanks.


Same catalog. Looks legit.
Catalogs: Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com

The catalog you need is called 'Каталог часов, 1972 - А.И. Токмаков'


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Same catalog. Looks legit.
> Catalogs: Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com
> 
> The catalog you need is called 'Каталог часов, 1972 - А.И. Токмаков'
> 
> View attachment 16030493


What I'd love to know is why is the calendar dial printing looks so bad? Is it one of those things that don't photograph well because of the lens on the crystal and looks just fine in hand?

Thanks for all this, it's going to be an interesting addition to the collection.


----------



## Chetnik919

Hello everyone.

I came accross this Slava Perestroika and I need your opinions.

I have a doubt because this watch is way too clean for 32 years old watch.

It comes with a paper with the serial number handwritten on it and the serial number match with the case and a paper tag tied on its buckle.

Please let me know what you all think.


----------



## Odessa200

Chetnik919 said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> I came accross this Slava Perestroika and I need your opinions.
> 
> I have a doubt because this watch is way too clean for 32 years old watch.
> 
> It comes with a paper with the serial number handwritten on it and the serial number match with the case and a paper tag tied on its buckle.
> 
> Please let me know what you all think.
> View attachment 16031008
> 
> View attachment 16031009
> 
> View attachment 16031010
> 
> View attachment 16031011
> 
> View attachment 16031012


Welcome. all is good. These watches rarely were used: people bought them as souvenirs and what do you do with souvenirs? You keep them in a drawer . This is why it is clean.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> What I'd love to know is why is the calendar dial printing looks so bad? Is it one of those things that don't photograph well because of the lens on the crystal and looks just fine in hand?
> 
> Thanks for all this, it's going to be an interesting addition to the collection.


hard to tell from the one photo. Maybe lens distortion. The printing on these calendars are not that crisp. Here are a few of mine.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> hard to tell from the one photo. Maybe lens distortion. The printing on these calendars are not that crisp. Here are a few of mine.
> View attachment 16031039
> View attachment 16031040
> View attachment 16031042


Thanks very much for posting these. Mine is in the same ballpark and I have another photo that has less lens distortion which I'll post. It seems so odd that the calendar dial should be so less refined than the rest of the watch. Is there any reason you know of, or just general speculation as to why that might be?

Also, I forgot to ask, do these movements have a quick date set function (second crown position)? How do they protect from overwinding (clutch in barrel)? Is it OK to fully manual wind them (and how do you know when to stop turning the crown)?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks very much for posting these. Mine is in the same ballpark and I have another photo that has less lens distortion which I'll post. It seems so odd that the calendar dial should be so less refined than the rest of the watch. Is there any reason you know of, or just general speculation as to why that might be?
> 
> Also, I forgot to ask, do these movements have a quick date set function (second crown position)? How do they protect from overwinding (clutch in barrel)? Is it OK to fully manual wind them (and how do you know when to stop turning the crown)?


my guess is that the red pigment they used deteriorated a bit or maybe the printing initially was not that good. These watches one of the first 1mchz watches with a calendar so maybe they were still refining the calendar printing.

quick date set: no, you will need to advance the hands many times&#8230; this is why I never set the date.

overwinding: there is a clutch in the barrel/spring so the spring will slip when tension is too much. You cannot overwind. I wind for 25 twists when starting one of these.


----------



## MattBrace

nambinik said:


> Hello comrades. I'm looking to buy a poljot 3133 from the 80s. How does it look. I believe the silver dial POLJOT model with US10SR corresponds was available from 81-87. Everything checks out for me except the stamped 1-87 date. I haven't seen that in other versions of this model I've found on the internet. The golden wheels seem right if it is produced in 87.
> 
> Anything you guys see is wrong? Also is 300 Euro too much for this one?
> 
> View attachment 16026348
> View attachment 16026351
> View attachment 16026352
> View attachment 16026353


All checks out for me, decent example and price is in the right ball park.

Cheers...


----------



## nambinik

MattBrace said:


> All checks out for me, decent example and price is in the right ball park.
> 
> Cheers...


Thanks. So for the 3133s, is the US10SR Poljot any rarer or more expensive than the USSR poljot, or the poljot without Ussr on dial or Cyrillic poljot? The seller is trying say this version of the dial is rare and hence should cost more.


----------



## MattBrace

The split USSR is harder to find, but I would be more interested in condition of a watch than that.

Cheers...


----------



## dutchassasin

This scuba is looking odd , the missing 11 marking doesnt help either. Printing looks very thin. What you guys think?


----------



## mariomart

dutchassasin said:


> This scuba is looking odd , the missing 11 marking doesnt help either. Printing looks very thin. What you guys think?
> View attachment 16032581


I believe it's to avoid any 11th hour dilemma's 🤪


----------



## msherry

Hello there! I'm looking for a Poljot de Luxe with a black dial. I've found this one on eBay, but the price is suspiciously good: Vintage Watch Poljot De Luxe ULTRA SLIM Black Dial Dress Men's WristWatch USSR | eBay

The seller claims the dial is original, but he would, wouldn't he? Can anyone here help verify its condition? Thanks in advance!


----------



## mariomart

msherry said:


> Hello there! I'm looking for a Poljot de Luxe with a black dial. I've found this one on eBay, but the price is suspiciously good: Vintage Watch Poljot De Luxe ULTRA SLIM Black Dial Dress Men's WristWatch USSR | eBay
> 
> The seller claims the dial is original, but he would, wouldn't he? Can anyone here help verify its condition? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16032611
> 
> 
> View attachment 16032612


The dial is an original fake.

Engraved indices should have parallel straight sides, not discus shaped.

Welcome to the forum by the way


----------



## Avidfan

dutchassasin said:


> This scuba is looking odd , the missing 11 marking doesnt help either. Printing looks very thin. What you guys think?
> View attachment 16032581


Here's another example from Michele Cuoccio's collection, bizarre enough to be genuine (IMHO)


----------



## Odessa200

mariomart said:


> The dial is an original fake.
> 
> Engraved indices should have parallel straight sides, not discus shaped.
> 
> Welcome to the forum by the way


Just to add: I do not think there is anything original from the Poljot de luxe in this watch. Nothing! Whoever made this watch went all the way to take a wrong case (from Luch), fake crown, fake dial, fake hands, wrong movement (from Luch)&#8230; 'Fantastic' job. Pass our regards to the seller&#8230; (me smiling sarcastically).

welcome to the forum. We are nice people who try to help new collectors to avoid mistakes we made. We do not like fakes and definitely do not like fakers who try to scam people. Keep reading and comparing. Avoid new shiny watches that are for sale for way less that a watch like this would be priced at. Good luck!


----------



## msherry

mariomart said:


> The dial is an original fake.
> 
> Engraved indices should have parallel straight sides, not discus shaped.
> 
> Welcome to the forum by the way





Odessa200 said:


> Just to add: I do not think there is anything original from the Poljot de luxe in this watch. Nothing! Whoever made this watch went all the way to take a wrong case (from Luch), fake crown, fake dial, fake hands, wrong movement (from Luch)&#8230; 'Fantastic' job. Pass our regards to the seller&#8230; (me smiling sarcastically).
> ...


Thank you both for your help (and for the warm welcome)! I figured that it was too pretty to be genuine, and while I don't mind the idea of reproductions, I'd like to go into a purchase with both eyes open. Really appreciate all the expertise gathered here!


----------



## player_one

Hello everyone,

I've looked high and low for information on this Vostok I came across and have found nothing about it. I hope someone here can shed some light on it. I am certainly no expert on Vostok's, but haven't seen an export one with 'Vostok' rather than 'Wostok.' Thanks in advance.


----------



## mariomart

player_one said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've looked high and low for information on this Vostok I came across and have found nothing about it. I hope someone here can shed some light on it. I am certainly no expert on Vostok's, but haven't seen an export one with 'Vostok' rather than 'Wostok.' Thanks in advance.
> View attachment 16034099
> View attachment 16034101
> View attachment 16034102


I'm not completely certain, but I think it is a part of the "Vostok Partner" range from around 2001, possibly a case type 291.

I couldn't find your particular Violet colour dial in the 2001 catalog, but there are many similar case/bezel in the range.

Just an example scan from the 2001 catalog


----------



## player_one

mariomart said:


> I'm not completely certain, but I think it is a part of the "Vostok Partner" range from around 2001, possibly a case type 291.
> 
> I couldn't find your particular Violet colour dial in the 2001 catalog, but there are many similar case/bezel in the range.
> 
> Just an example scan from the 2001 catalog
> 
> View attachment 16034137


Thanks for that! I was looking at some 90s catalogs I had, never looked at anything later.


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone know anything about this weird Amphibia:




























Never seen anything like it.


----------



## POLYBIUS

Hey guys, I'm looking to buy my first russian watch and would prefer to end up with something real. Can yall confirm if any of these are legit? I'm already assuming the Big 0 is fake.


----------



## Odessa200

POLYBIUS said:


> Hey guys, I'm looking to buy my first russian watch and would prefer to end up with something real. Can yall confirm if any of these are legit? I'm already assuming the Big 0 is fake.
> View attachment 16035107
> View attachment 16035117
> View attachment 16035109
> View attachment 16035110
> View attachment 16035111


Welcome. I think all of these are real watches. But you did mot give us much details. Do you only care about the face of the watch? How about movement, crystal, crown, back cover? Important to you or not?
To facilitate a better discussion: post one watch at a time and post all the photos you have! And post big photos: cannot see much on these


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know anything about this weird Amphibia:
> 
> View attachment 16034810
> 
> 
> View attachment 16034813
> 
> 
> View attachment 16034814
> 
> 
> Never seen anything like it.


We only know what the seller is telling us...they have several apparently rare prototype Vostok watches with unknown dials and in unknown cases for sale and some like the Neptune goldfish look authentic, but this one has a mix of Soviet and much newer parts even though the seller says it's an authentic prototype...

If it was cheap I'd buy it for the dial and chrome case but at £855? Nah...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> We only know what the seller is telling us...they have several apparently rare prototype Vostok watches with unknown dials and in unknown cases for sale and some like the Neptune goldfish look authentic, but this one has a mix of Soviet and much newer parts even though the seller says it's an authentic prototype...
> 
> If it was cheap I'd buy it for the dial and chrome case but at £855? Nah...


Oh i don't plan on buying it - I'm done... maaaybe if I manage to sell a lot of watches I'm gonna get that new Yena Superman or another bronze watch, but this one, nooo....

I was just wondering about the very weird case that I haven't ever seen before.


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Oh i don't plan on buying it - I'm done... maaaybe if I manage to sell a lot of watches I'm gonna get that new Yena Superman or another bronze watch, but this one, nooo....
> 
> I was just wondering about the very weird case that I haven't ever seen before.


You should also check out the two prototype Desert Shields he has for sale and also a very weird Titan, all far too much money to lose if they turn out to be fake...


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> We only know what the seller is telling us...they have several apparently rare prototype Vostok watches with unknown dials and in unknown cases for sale and some like the Neptune goldfish look authentic, but this one has a mix of Soviet and much newer parts even though the seller says it's an authentic prototype...
> 
> If it was cheap I'd buy it for the dial and chrome case but at £855? Nah...


I used to work on a Soviet factory: we could do anything (machines were there, material is there, skilled people available). And workers of the various Soviet watch factories keep saying: we did a lot of experiments and a lot of watches for ourselves. A watch like this is interesting with papers. Otherwise, in my view, it does not hold much value. Because someone made this unusual case for unknown reason we need to pay big $&#8230; what for?


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> You should also check out the two prototype Desert Shields he has for sale and also a very weird Titan, all far too much money to lose if they turn out to be fake...


yeah, he has a lot of weird ones, hasn't he? also reeealy expensive...

oh, btw @Odessa200 , the Poljot you said was good? I got it - I was the only bidder  Gonna show pictures when it arrives.


----------



## Chascomm

Avidfan said:


> You should also check out the two prototype Desert Shields he has for sale and also a very weird Titan, all far too much money to lose if they turn out to be fake...


The square Desert Shield in particular seems so perfectly made, and yet such a poor match between dial and case style, that it makes me wonder if at least some of these watches are assembled recently from caches of authentic vintage experimental parts mixed with whatever fits. On the other hand, an Elektronika 5.202 with custom Olympics dial _and a light_ is so totally specialised that I feel like it is probably authentic. But who is going to pay the money and find out?


----------



## POLYBIUS

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. I think all of these are real watches. But you did mot give us much details. Do you only care about the face of the watch? How about movement, crystal, crown, back cover? Important to you or not?
> To facilitate a better discussion: post one watch at a time and post all the photos you have! And post big photos: cannot see much on these


Gotcha sorry. I'm new here and new to this. I bought the big 0 and I'll post some more photos in a moment


----------



## POLYBIUS

Just bought this guy. It looks legit as far as I can tell, but I would love some feedback


----------



## Odessa200

POLYBIUS said:


> Just bought this guy. It looks legit as far as I can tell, but I would love some feedback
> View attachment 16036465
> View attachment 16036466
> View attachment 16036467
> View attachment 16036468
> View attachment 16036470


Looks good although the printing on my dial is a bit different. Maybe just a different batch. Take a look. Lets ser what other folks say&#8230;.


----------



## 979greenwich

I'm hesitant to confirm Big Zero dials only by pictures. I have three of them and at first glance they look like someone could print them out and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. My guide to Big Zero would be hands, which are unique to this watch, and a flat 2609.HA movement.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16037237
> 
> 
> Looks good although the printing on my dial is a bit different. Maybe just a different batch. Take a look. Lets ser what other folks say&#8230;.


Could it be there were different production versions with slight cosmetic differences? I have two - although the hands look correct on both, I could swear that on one of them it looks as if the hands have been painted 'thicker', like they have more coats of paint on them or something, they look 'blacker' - if that makes sense.

That's why I've ordered _a third _Big Zero


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Could it be there were different production versions with slight cosmetic differences? I have two - although the hands look correct on both, I could swear that on one of them it looks as if the hands have been painted 'thicker', like they have more coats of paint on them or something, they look 'blacker' - if that makes sense.
> 
> That's why I've ordered _a third _Big Zero


yes, this is what I suspect. The dial that sparked this discussion looks legit to me but a bit different feom mine.


----------



## jimzilla

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know anything about this weird Amphibia:
> 
> View attachment 16034810
> 
> 
> View attachment 16034813
> 
> 
> View attachment 16034814
> 
> 
> Never seen anything like it.


Possibly someone with good grinding skills?


----------



## jimzilla

I need authentication form our esteemed experts, thank you so much for your time and opinions, James.


----------



## 979greenwich

Wrong second hand and crown, polished as hell. Stay away.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I need authentication form our esteemed experts, thank you so much for your time and opinions, James.


Crown is original (has copper coloured stem) but also has a reproduction bezel...and where's the rotor?


----------



## jimzilla

The rotor has the "B" cut out.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> The rotor has the "B" cut out.


Yes that sounds like the correct rotor...and maybe it's got new lume on the dial and hands (it's often hard to tell on a photo) but for me it's been overrestored...


----------



## jimzilla

The seconds hand is correct?


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> The seconds hand is correct?


No, should be chrome with lume pip...


----------



## Ligavesh

jimzilla said:


> Possibly someone with good grinding skills?


Well yeah, maybe the workers at Vostok with spare time on their hands? That would make it a unique Vostok.


----------



## jimzilla

I think it is cool looking, you should get it 
Prototype or not.


----------



## Chelsea0407

Thoughts on this? Not sure if the movement and dial match up...trusted seller though. Soviet rarities on ebay.


----------



## Odessa200

Chelsea0407 said:


> Thoughts on this? Not sure if the movement and dial match up...trusted seller though. Soviet rarities on ebay.
> View attachment 16042189
> View attachment 16042190
> View attachment 16042192


looks good to me.


----------



## Chelsea0407

Odessa200 said:


> looks good to me.


Sweet, thank you!


----------



## Ligavesh

jimzilla said:


> I think it is cool looking, you should get it
> Prototype or not.


nah, it's too much money

I'm thinking about the new Yema Superman in that price range _if _I sell a lot of my watches... This one too would be way too much - but I agree that it's very cool looking.


----------



## Ligavesh

Is anything on this watch legit? I mean the dial/case/hands combo - obviously the second hand is broken... I can't find the _exact _model in the catalogs:




























If it's _somewhat _legit, I would like to 'save' it as I like the dial a lot; the watch needs a service (or maybe just replace the 2414A from a donor), as the hands move with much resistance, and the date quick set doesn't work.


----------



## capannelle

The dial is similar to this one I have, model 061008, but the color is different


----------



## Ligavesh

capannelle said:


> The dial is similar to this one I have, model 061008, but the color is different
> View attachment 16043854


Yeah, the print of the numbers is exactly the same, and I actually have that watch - black and white (oh wait, I've gotta post in the black&white topic). Only on this one there are no second marks. I'm gonna have to check the catalogs again.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends!

Would you give me a hand with this Komandirskie? From the Komandirskie thread it seems to be a "generation 1.5" with the isosceles triangles. My main concern is the bridge (where it says 18 jewels) as it seems brighter than the rest (and not as brushed) but I'm not sure if this is just the angle of the photo. Would a "1.5 generation" have a stop second function? The seller says this watch doesn't.
How about this Red 12? I'm not very familiar with this watch so any guidance would be appreciated.

Thanks again!






























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> 
> Would you give me a hand with this Komandirskie? From the Komandirskie thread it seems to be a "generation 1.5" with the isosceles triangles. My main concern is the bridge (where it says 18 jewels) as it seems brighter than the rest (and not as brushed) but I'm not sure if this is just the angle of the photo. Would a "1.5 generation" have a stop second function? The seller says this watch doesn't.
> How about this Red 12? I'm not very familiar with this watch so any guidance would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Raketa is fine.
Komansirskie have a relumed hands. Bridge is fine. The stop second is missing because it is broken or the 2214 movement from a civil Vostok was used to rebuild this watch. I am not sure about the calendar, it looks too thick to me.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> Raketa is fine.
> Komansirskie have a relumed hands. Bridge is fine. The stop second is missing because it is broken or the 2214 movement from a civil Vostok was used to rebuild this watch. I am not sure about the calendar, it looks too thick to me.


Thanks Odessa! I appreciate your wealth of knowledge. On the Raketa "Red 12" do you happen to know the production dates of this piece? I've seen some as recent as the 1990s but don't know the exact dates.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thanks Odessa! I appreciate your wealth of knowledge. On the Raketa "Red 12" do you happen to know the production dates of this piece? I've seen some as recent as the 1990s but don't know the exact dates.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


they appeared in the late 80s. Present in the 1989 catalog and were produced in the 90s and maybe even in the 2000s.


----------



## seaplan3pilot

Found a reddit thread advising newbs to come here for second opinions. I have been going down a rabbit hole of russian watches and I am really out of my depth to tell what is legit and what is not.

Would really appreciate any feedback on some watches I am interested in:

#1 Polar 24HR Polar, I have seen some on Etsy but this listing is on Ebay for $292 USD and from Ukraine. The seller has very decent reviews, but this watch is in incredible shape for any era.. not sure what to think and I cannot seem to figure out what movement it has. 

















Here are some pics from the ETSY listing, different face of course:

















Onto #2
I don't have a hard time believing this model is genuine due to its visible age. The question I have is if it is worth buying for $150, do not know much about the 18 jewel movement. I am interested in the alarm function for work. 

























I saw two POLJOT ALARM DOLPHIN watches on ebay that I would be interested in also around $200 USD. Alarm watches with some very decent depth. The price seems in line with a genuine watch but any advice is appreciated, I assume the lume is mismatched on these models. Does anyone have thoughts on this particular movement?
























Saw countless of these cheap watches on ETSY around $100 USD, anyone have any good experiences with them?
















Lastly I was considering between the movements of 3133 and ST19 and even an automaticST1940. There is a considerable bump in price for the older USSR 3133 movements and I am unsure if there is any legitimate benefit. Hopefully someone here has had some experience with them. Ideally I will get a watch that doesn't lose a shameful amount of time per time. I would really like a watch with an alarm but the chronograph's really look the part.

I would jump to grab one of these but so far I have seen some similar models at Poljot24 and on Etsy below. 


























A gorgeous stela from Poljot24 42mm with the 3133 









I wouldn't mind the strela tribute at 40mm with the ST19 movement either. 









Hope this photo bomb wasn't too over the top.. big thanks.


----------



## palletwheel

This seems to have Franken written all over it, but it really looks so nice I figured I'd ask. Is it possibly a transition piece? There's the stamped movement with a Made In Russia dial, but again, not sure if that's just wrong. The year dial starts 1980, but so does this late example:





__





Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





In the Soviet era, based on @mroatman, blue dial gold case came with white hands, blue dial chrome case came with black hands.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> This seems to have Franken written all over it, but it really looks so nice I figured I'd ask. Is it possibly a transition piece? There's the stamped movement with a Made In Russia dial, but again, not sure if that's just wrong. The year dial starts 1980, but so does this late example:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the Soviet era, based on @mroatman, blue dial gold case came with white hands, blue dial chrome case came with black hands.


i am skeptical. Made in Russia came with the calendar ring with later years than 1980s. Why would you make the watch that shows past years&#8230; Hands I would expect to be golden. I have a green version with holden hands.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> i am skeptical. Made in Russia came with the calendar ring with later years than 1980s. Why would you make the watch that shows past years&#8230; Hands I would expect to be golden. I have a green version with holden hands.


Either it's put together from parts at hand by the factory, or of course someone else. The only useful questions I can think of is when did Raketa start making "Made In Russia" dials? Would they still have older stamped movements when they did?

I am also curious about when they stopped making these altogether. Do you know?


----------



## Odessa200

seaplan3pilot said:


> Onto #2
> I don't have a hard time believing this model is genuine due to its visible age. The question I have is if it is worth buying for $150, do not know much about the 18 jewel movement. I am interested in the alarm function for work.
> View attachment 16045469
> 
> View attachment 16045470
> 
> View attachment 16045471
> 
> 
> Saw countless of these cheap watches on ETSY around $100 USD, anyone have any good experiences with them?
> View attachment 16045478
> 
> View attachment 16045479


Welcome. These 2 are fakes.


----------



## Chetnik919

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. all is good. These watches rarely were used: people bought them as souvenirs and what do you do with souvenirs? You keep them in a drawer . This is why it is clean.


Hello, thank you for your information sir.
So 1 legit Slava for me 😄

And I also came across this two Raketa watches from local market here in Indonesia which in my opinion both of this are franken/fake. Please let me know.

First, this Raketa Officerskie Perpetual Calendar

Issue that I concerned about:
1. Cyrillic dial and English daywheel.
2. The date number and day in the dial so blurred, like it was printed/painted.
3. 2628H movement pretty correct for me.
























And the second is this Raketa Pilot 24 Hour.
Issue that I concerned about:
1. The dial faded in some part, also looks like it was printed/painted.
3. 2609H movement AFAIK is for Raketa 12 Hour not 24 Hour watch, I've read at Mr. schnurrp thread about this here : An analysis of Raketa 2609 and 2623 24 hour movements


----------



## elsoldemayo

Correct on both. The perpetual calendar has been made up from parts and should never have a mix of Cyrillic & English. The second one is a complete fake to be avoided.


----------



## palletwheel

Could you please provide opinions on the following Big Zero? Some of the fake dials are really amazing, so I've gotten really paranoid about these. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Could you please provide opinions on the following Big Zero? Some of the fake dials are really amazing, so I've gotten really paranoid about these. Thanks!


I do not see any issues. Partially I wish we stop hunting down the Big Zeros. This is an unhealthy obsession&#8230;. Lol


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I do not see any issues. Partially I wish we stop hunting down the Big Zeros. This is an unhealthy obsession&#8230;. Lol


Agreed, but you got to have one or two in every collection. Now that I have one larger case style and one smaller case style, I can now return to full mental health and search for 2nd and 3rd generation Vostok Precision watches


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> my guess is that the red pigment they used deteriorated a bit or maybe the printing initially was not that good. These watches one of the first 1mchz watches with a calendar so maybe they were still refining the calendar printing.
> 
> quick date set: no, you will need to advance the hands many times&#8230; this is why I never set the date.
> 
> overwinding: there is a clutch in the barrel/spring so the spring will slip when tension is too much. You cannot overwind. I wind for 25 twists when starting one of these.


One other question about these Poljot 2416 movements. Do these have a quick change date mechanism, or does the date change slowly around 12? I can't find any info on this and it's my first one so I appreciate the feedback.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> One other question about these Poljot 2416 movements. Do these have a quick change date mechanism, or does the date change slowly around 12? I can't find any info on this and it's my first one so I appreciate the feedback.


2416a 29 j does not have instant change. 2614b 17 j and 2416 30 j have instant date change. But I never checked: I am sleeping at midnight


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> 2416a 29 j does not have instant change. 2614b 17 j and 2416 30 j have instant date change. But I never checked: I am sleeping at midnight
> View attachment 16051373
> View attachment 16051375
> View attachment 16051376


Awesome response, as usual. But I encourage you to get out more


----------



## palletwheel

This is supposed to be true NOS. I know nothing about these, but it looks really cool. Please comment, particularly if the price is outrageous. As the dealer has 3 in inventory I'll break protocol and just post the listing, maybe others will want to pick one up. Even if it's a fair price, it may be too rich for me anyway, but I'd like to know more about it. Even after looking at the polmax website I'm still confused where this reissue fits and how many years it could have been sitting around.









Okeah Poljot Chronograph 3133 Okean Military Russian Watch Ocean 3133/1981599 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Okeah Poljot Chronograph 3133 Okean Military Russian Watch Ocean 3133/1981599 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## tranzchina

Would appreciate any input on what this might be. I thought rekord only made a few models, is this perhaps one of these. Thanks for any input 😊


----------



## palletwheel

palletwheel said:


> I came across the following early Vostok Precision. After reading endlessly about them I would say that the dial, case, handset, crown look good to me. The movement seems to pass all the tests, but there is one detail I'm not sure about. Is the rachet wheel a later replacement? The only thing different about it is the blue colored stars, but is it possible that by 1960 they started to do that? If I needed to replace it, I assume I can take it from a 2609A Volna, but can also use a 2609B Almaz?
> 
> Lastly, please have a close look at the balance spring. It sort of looks like someone messed with it a bit, the overcoil in particular looks a little problematic.
> 
> I really appreciate all the opinions. These are hard, so its easy for someone like me to make a mistake. Thanks much in advance.


Could someone please let me know what a fair price for this watch would be? There was a lot of discussion and now we are getting to price. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Could someone please let me know what a fair price for this watch would be? There was a lot of discussion and now we are getting to price. Thanks!


About 125$


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Would appreciate any input on what this might be. I thought rekord only made a few models, is this perhaps one of these. Thanks for any input ?
> View attachment 16053546
> View attachment 16053547
> View attachment 16053549
> View attachment 16053550


Looks good to me but I do not know much about them. Short-lived post soviet company that was making watches for a few years&#8230;


----------



## tranzchina

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me but I do not know much about them. Short-lived post soviet company that was making watches for a few years&#8230;


much appreciated, seems like only a few around, might get it just out of interest.


----------



## Ligavesh

Can someone find me the catalog picture where this watch appears?










I can swear I saw it in a catalog pic (90s I think?), but I've been through all of them now and I can't find it


----------



## Roman Ukraine

have any idea how many watch are involved here?


----------



## Chascomm

tranzchina said:


> Would appreciate any input on what this might be. I thought rekord only made a few models, is this perhaps one of these. Thanks for any input ?
> View attachment 16053546
> View attachment 16053547
> View attachment 16053549
> View attachment 16053550


 This is an early Rekord Standart. It was made in Moscow in the early 2000s. I'm not sure if the hand-winding movement is Russian (maybe Vostok or Raketa from the position of the date window) or Chinese (Tongji type).


----------



## Chascomm

Roman Ukraine said:


> have any idea how many watch are involved here?
> View attachment 16058409
> View attachment 16058410


Three.


----------



## steros

Chinese?








Men's wristwatch Komandirskie Vostok | eBay


Used, workers.



www.ebay.com


----------



## elsoldemayo

steros said:


> Chinese?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men's wristwatch Komandirskie Vostok | eBay
> 
> 
> Used, workers.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I'm can't say if it came out of the factory in that configuration, but the parts all look ok. What makes you think it may be Chinese?


----------



## 979greenwich

Not Chinese, just regular Ukrainian franken.


----------



## steros

979greenwich said:


> Not Chinese, just regular Ukrainian franken.


I thought even the dial looked really weird, but maybe just a bad photo. I have never seen that bezel before, not the case either but those may be post cccp wich I am not so familiar with.


----------



## palletwheel

Please let me know if I have properly learned all my lessons. I think this is ok, though I do worry a little about the space between the case and crown.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Please let me know if I have properly learned all my lessons. I think this is ok, though I do worry a little about the space between the case and crown.


you are a good student . All good. Maybe crown was pulled in the 2nd position


----------



## Chascomm

steros said:


> Chinese?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men's wristwatch Komandirskie Vostok | eBay
> 
> 
> Used, workers.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


Looks like 100% Soviet/Russian/Belarussian parts. I'm not familiar with that exact case, but the combination of Komandirskie case back and crown with flat mineral crystal is consistent with certain Vostok Partner and Century Time models from the early 2000s. The dial is from the Soviet era and has aged in a way that is distinctive to Vostok dials. The bracelet clasp was made in Russia or Belarus, possibly the entire bracelet. The Vostok movement matches the age of the case rather than the dial.


----------



## Avidfan

Chascomm said:


> Looks like 100% Soviet/Russian/Belarussian parts. I'm not familiar with that exact case, but the combination of Komandirskie case back and crown with flat mineral crystal is consistent with certain Vostok Partner and Century Time models from the early 2000s. The dial is from the Soviet era and has aged in a way that is distinctive to Vostok dials. The bracelet clasp was made in Russia or Belarus, possibly the entire bracelet. The Vostok movement matches the age of the case rather than the dial.


A Type 93 Komandirskie case from around 1999 to the early 2000's, movement is late Soviet production...

Here's a page from the 2001 Vostok catalogue showing a number of Type 93's...


----------



## palletwheel

I came across this Mir, which I think is overall ok, but was concerned about the crown and particularly the balance wheel, which it appears doesn't quite have an even distribution of weights. So that's why the photos are tilted, to help with that. Could someone please comment?


----------



## mariomart

Ligavesh said:


> Can someone find me the catalog picture where this watch appears?
> 
> View attachment 16057869
> 
> 
> I can swear I saw it in a catalog pic (90s I think?), but I've been through all of them now and I can't find it


You're not going crazy, lol.

It appeared in a 1990's Sutter catalog, and has the model number 32114.


----------



## greengoddess

Can anyone tell me if this Poljot Stadium watch is a Franken? I really like it and would love to own it.


----------



## Odessa200

greengoddess said:


> View attachment 16066539
> View attachment 16066540
> View attachment 16066541
> View attachment 16066542
> View attachment 16066543
> Can anyone tell me if this Poljot Stadium watch is a Franken? I really like it and would love to own it.


all legit. Good find.


----------



## greengoddess

Odessa200 said:


> all legit. Good find.


Great! Thank you. I can't wait to receive it.


----------



## greengoddess

Hi Guys, please can I have your opinion on this Vostok Amphibian watch?
I would love to own it but I need to know if it is a "Franken".
Can you help?


----------



## 979greenwich

Not a franken, but the crystal (and maybe the bezel) is a replacement. Also, someone painted the letters SU on the movement red. Not great, not terrible.


----------



## greengoddess

979greenwich said:


> Not a franken, but the crystal (and maybe the bezel) is a replacement. Also, someone painted the letters SU on the movement red. Not great, not terrible.


Thank you. Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the crystal has been replaced?


----------



## Odessa200

greengoddess said:


> Thank you. Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the crystal has been replaced?


cause this watch should have a special crystal  that is replaced on 95% of such watches. I would ONLY get this watch with the original crystal.


----------



## greengoddess

Odessa200 said:


> cause this watch should have a special crystal  that is replaced on 95% of such watches. I would ONLY get this watch with the original crystal.


Ah, ok. But how can I tell from the photos that the crystal is not original? Thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

greengoddess said:


> Ah, ok. But how can I tell from the photos that the crystal is not original? Thank you.


this crystal should have a huge lens (covering the whole crystal). It is quite obvious when you see it but hard to explain. I hope I am not confusing things (cause I do not have this one). Wait for the Vostok experts to chime in.


----------



## greengoddess

Odessa200 said:


> this crystal should have a huge lens (covering the whole crystal). It is quite obvious when you see it but hard to explain.


Ok, thank you. I will do more research 🧐


----------



## mariomart

greengoddess said:


> Ok, thank you. I will do more research 🧐


This might help.

Notice the curved profile of the Type 350 (left) and Type 119 (middle) compared to the Modern (right) crystal.


----------



## greengoddess

mariomart said:


> This might help.
> 
> Notice the curved profile of the Type 350 (left) and Type 119 (middle) compared to the Modern (right) crystal.
> 
> View attachment 16069196


That's great! Thank you for that, that will help immensley.


----------



## Joey_patina_hands

Hey, are either of these legit? I've never seen this model with a date window but I'm also still pretty new.

Watch1:
















Watch 2:


----------



## Odessa200

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Hey, are either of these legit? I've never seen this model with a date window but I'm also still pretty new.
> 
> Watch1:
> View attachment 16071034
> View attachment 16071035
> 
> 
> Watch 2:
> View attachment 16071037
> 
> View attachment 16071038


Welcome. I not an expert in these watches so I will not opine on the authenticity of the setup but offer what I see. The watch with the date: this dial with 2414 is quite common. Take a look.
2nd watch has a replaced main train bridge (all bridges are flat but this main bridge is beveled) . I hope this helps


----------



## Joey_patina_hands

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. I not an expert in these watches so I will not opine on the authenticity of the setup but offer what I see. The watch with the date: this dial with 2414 is quite common. Take a look.
> 2nd watch has a replaced main train bridge (all bridges are flat but this main bridge is beveled) . I hope this helps
> View attachment 16071202


Thanks, do you know if the 2414 would be more like an Amphibia or a Komandirskie in terms of build quality (if there's a considerable difference)? The current version of it Vostok makes here says it's chrome-plated brass however the ebay listing for that watch says it's stainless steel.


----------



## Surreal_Memoir

Hi friends, new to the forums. I was given this Zim watch that I have been having trouble identifying. Is it legit?


----------



## Odessa200

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Thanks, do you know if the 2414 would be more like an Amphibia or a Komandirskie in terms of build quality (if there's a considerable difference)? The current version of it Vostok makes here says it's chrome-plated brass however the ebay listing for that watch says it's stainless steel.


quality is same. There are chromed cases and steel cases. It is hard for me to tell by the photos especially for new watches. Better double check with the seller if the watch is indeed in steel case.


----------



## Odessa200

Surreal_Memoir said:


> Hi friends, new to the forums. I was given this Zim watch that I have been having trouble identifying. Is it legit?
> View attachment 16071714
> View attachment 16071715
> View attachment 16071716
> View attachment 16071717
> View attachment 16071718


Hello and welcome. Unfortunately I think this is a franken Zim. Built out of several Zims from different time periods. The case and movement are much older (70s) than the dial/hands/back (80s). Here is how this Zim supposed to look and what movement should be inside. Tye back cover with a number cannot be on the same watch that has a number of the movement (old movement as I said).


----------



## jimzilla

Had this one come in today and I would like to have our esteemed panel of experts authenticate this watch.
The strap has something written on it that I can't make out, maybe someone knows?
Thank you in advance for your time, James.


----------



## Surreal_Memoir

Odessa200 said:


> Hello and welcome. Unfortunately I think this is a franken Zim. Built out of several Zims from different time periods. The case and movement are much older (70s) than the dial/hands/back (80s). Here is how this Zim supposed to look and what movement should be inside. Tye back cover with a number cannot be on the same watch that has a number of the movement (old movement as I said).
> View attachment 16072490
> View attachment 16072494


That's too bad, but thank you very much!


----------



## BigJ095

Has anyone seen this Poljot 2409 case style before? I found a similar watch in the catalogue, but not quite the same.


----------



## Chelsea0407

Hi! Considering purchasing this Red 12, could you guys advise? As a side note, the fixed spring bars (?) seem to have broken off, and small fragments are apparently jammed into the holes to the point that the seller has included a new case. The new case also has no bars, but the crystal has changed colour so I might have to swap crystals and case.
















Should I worry?


----------



## Odessa200

BigJ095 said:


> Has anyone seen this Poljot 2409 case style before? I found a similar watch in the catalogue, but not quite the same.
> View attachment 16073599
> View attachment 16073600
> View attachment 16073602
> View attachment 16073603


Plenty of models in the catalog from 1977







in


----------



## Odessa200

Chelsea0407 said:


> View attachment 16073873
> View attachment 16073874
> View attachment 16073875
> 
> 
> Hi! Considering purchasing this Red 12, could you guys advise? As a side note, the fixed spring bars (?) seem to have broken off, and small fragments are apparently jammed into the holes to the point that the seller has included a new case. The new case also has no bars, but the crystal has changed colour so I might have to swap crystals and case.
> View attachment 16073884
> View attachment 16073883
> 
> 
> Should I worry?


good news is that the dial is by 1mchz (same as movement). Bad news are replaced crown and balance bridge. As far as the bars: yea, in 1951 you would expect fixed bars. If they are broken you can try to drill out the remaining parts and just use the modern bars (or make something out of 2 wires and solder them in). Or use the replacement case: switching crystal is easy on the watch&#8230;


----------



## jimzilla

Can someone please give an opionion on this watch ...... post #3,008 , thanks so much, James.


----------



## BigJ095

Odessa200 said:


> Plenty of models in the catalog from 1977
> View attachment 16074266
> in
> View attachment 16074270


Thank you!


----------



## Joey_patina_hands

Sort of a broader question but were there Komandirskies and Amphibias produced without a "made in the USSR" type mark on the dial or is it safe to assume the dial at least is unoriginal?


----------



## Ligavesh

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Sort of a broader question but were there Komandirskies and Amphibias produced without a "made in the USSR" type mark on the dial or is it safe to assume the dial at least is unoriginal?


There were for a brief period, just after the break up of the Soviet Union. Later they were "Made in Russia".


----------



## Ligavesh

Does anyone recognise this Poljot?




























I was thinking it has to be an 80s-early 90s model, but I can't find it in the catalogues and MrOatman doesn't have it on his site either.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it (or at least the cyrillic variant) in the 1994 catalogue without "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" on it:










I guess this is one of those transition watches that at first had 'Made in USSR' but then 'lost' it.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> Had this one come in today and I would like to have our esteemed panel of experts authenticate this watch.
> The strap has something written on it that I can't make out, maybe someone knows?
> Thank you in advance for your time, James.


Hello James  apologies for the late reply...

Watch is a nice example of a 219327 from approx. 1999 to the early 2000's, as you can see the passport doesn't match as regards to the dial code which is a pity, here's a catalogue image to confirm the dial code...










(I don't know what the strap says though...)


----------



## jimzilla

Thank you Avidfan for replying, I do not know what the strap says as well but I do not think it is an original Vostok rat leather strap  but it is a fairly nice specimen and I got it on the cheap.
Thanks so much sir and have a good weekend, whats left of it. Best regards, James.


----------



## steros

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Thanks, do you know if the 2414 would be more like an Amphibia or a Komandirskie in terms of build quality (if there's a considerable difference)? The current version of it Vostok makes here says it's chrome-plated brass however the ebay listing for that watch says it's stainless steel.


As far as what normally belongs to what, I understand it like this: 2414 (date) normally goes into a Komandirskie with chrome plated brass case, like watch nr 1 (date window, only marked "Komandirskie" on the dial). Watch nr 2 has a dial without date window and marked "Antimagnetic" wich means it is intended to be in an Amphibian with stainless steel case and a movement like 2409. I think both watches are early post-Soviet era (dials without either "cccp " or "russia").


----------



## steros

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Thanks, do you know if the 2414 would be more like an Amphibia or a Komandirskie in terms of build quality (if there's a considerable difference)? The current version of it Vostok makes here says it's chrome-plated brass however the ebay listing for that watch says it's stainless steel.


Both cases look like stainless steel Amphibia cases because there are two notches for securing the case back. Komandirskie's normally have only one notch.


Joey_patina_hands said:


> Thanks, do you know if the 2414 would be more like an Amphibia or a Komandirskie in terms of build quality (if there's a considerable difference)? The current version of it Vostok makes here says it's chrome-plated brass however the ebay listing for that watch says it's stainless steel.


Both cases LOOK like stainless steel Amphibia cases because there are two notches for securing the case back. Cases intended for Komandirskie's normally only have one notch


----------



## palletwheel

I figured it was time to learn about Slavas, and I came across the following. I found something like it in a 1976 Slava catalog, but the picture was way too small to be sure and was part of a vast group photo. Couldn't tell at all the proper color of the second hand. Also saw one that was almost an exact match, 233719, in 1983 Soviet Wrist Watches Catalog, but no red second hand. So I think the red second hand may be wrong. Seller claims it has the original crystal. Can someone please let me know if this is right? Many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I figured it was time to learn about Slavas, and I came across the following. I found something like it in a 1976 Slava catalog, but the picture was way too small to be sure and was part of a vast group photo. Couldn't tell at all the proper color of the second hand. Also saw one that was almost an exact match, 233719, in 1983 Soviet Wrist Watches Catalog, but no red second hand. So I think the red second hand may be wrong. Seller claims it has the original crystal. Can someone please let me know if this is right? Many thanks!


the hand should be black but it is a nice one anyway. Many people liked adding a splash of color and this maybe a legit modification added years ago&#8230; I would still consider the watch even with the red hand. The rest is legit. Nice crystal with the lens!


----------



## Rocco

Ligavesh said:


> Does anyone recognise this Poljot?
> 
> I was thinking it has to be an 80s-early 90s model, but I can't find it in the catalogues and MrOatman doesn't have it on his site either.
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, found it (or at least the cyrillic variant) in the 1994 catalogue without "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" on it:
> 
> I guess this is one of those transition watches that at first had 'Made in USSR' but then 'lost' it.


I have a Poljot like this:


----------



## Rocco

I am very very new to Vostok, but based on some quick searching, I believe this is a transitional, post-CCCP, pre-Russia 420059 or 020059, correct?


----------



## Avidfan

Rocco said:


> I am very very new to Vostok, but based on some quick searching, I believe this is a transitional, post-CCCP, pre-Russia 420059 or 020059, correct?
> 
> View attachment 16081207
> 
> 
> View attachment 16081208
> 
> 
> View attachment 16081213


Looks like a 420059 from the late 1990's to early 2000's and is correct for what it is...


----------



## Ligavesh

Rocco said:


> I have a Poljot like this:
> 
> View attachment 16081151


Nice - although yours has a red second hand - but maybe it was just a variant in the production.

Anyway... what do you guys think about this NVCh-30:




























...and how much would you pay for it (if worth buying)?


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks to be missing the lume dot under the 6 and I would also want to see the movement, but assuming that checks out, despite the condition being average it's probably in the $600 - $800 range.


----------



## Joey_patina_hands

Does everything in this Komandirskie look above board? The only thing I can see is the color of the second hand but I don't have an eye for this sort of stuff


----------



## Avidfan

Joey_patina_hands said:


> Does everything in this Komandirskie look above board? The only thing I can see is the color of the second hand but I don't have an eye for this sort of stuff


A Komandirskie 341289 from approx.1989-1990...

The chrome seconds hand is correct, as you can see the dial is missing a few lume spots and the crown is of the steel crimped type taken off an Amphibia...


----------



## Ligavesh

And another Big Zero, sorry....

So on my hunt to get a _better_ Big Zero, I found this one:



















Of course, having read the 'Buying Guide', I immediately iniated a return (which I can do and the seller can't do anything about it since he has stated he accepts returns in 30 days). But then he sent me a message and a video he made, where he unboxes an 'original' Big Zero with the same type of glass:






He has also started a thread on the German Uhrforum where he asks for participants to confirm to him that the glass is original - untill now he's only got one response which reffered him to - the 'Buying Guide', i.e. the glass _muss be_ flat, not curved.

So my question to you - could it be that Raketa really did make Big Zeroes with such a glass? Btw, his message in Russian to me (I understand a bit, not whole):










Btw, that watch in his video doesn't seem to be a Big Zero, it seems to be some goldish/orange colored dial thing...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> And another Big Zero, sorry....
> 
> So on my hunt to get a _better_ Big Zero, I found this one:
> 
> View attachment 16081986
> 
> 
> View attachment 16081987
> 
> 
> Of course, having read the 'Buying Guide', I immediately iniated a return (which I can do and the seller can't do anything about it since he has stated he accepts returns in 30 days). But then he sent me a message and a video he made, where he unboxes an 'original' Big Zero with the same type of glass:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He has also started a thread on the German Uhrforum where he asks for participants to confirm to him that the glass is original - untill now he's only got one response which reffered him to - the 'Buying Guide', i.e. the glass _muss be_ flat, not curved.
> 
> So my question to you - could it be that Raketa really did make Big Zeroes with such a glass? Btw, his message in Russian to me (I understand a bit, not whole):
> 
> View attachment 16082005
> 
> 
> Btw, that watch in his video doesn't seem to be a Big Zero, it seems to be some goldish/orange colored dial thing...


It is a remake of the crystal. Similar but not original. Just my opinion.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> It is a remake of the crystal. Similar but not original. Just my opinion.


At this point I'm just thinking of buying a perestroyka or some other such watch with the same glass as the Big Zero and sacrifice that and just replace it on the one I had with a false glass.


----------



## Ligavesh

While you're here @Odessa200 ... Is this an authentic Poljot de Luxe case, and if so could i put the dial you said was in a Luch case in it? It seems a bit big...




























??


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> While you're here @Odessa200 ... Is this an authentic Poljot de Luxe case, and if so could i put the dial you said was in a Luch case in it? It seems a bit big...
> 
> View attachment 16082115
> 
> 
> View attachment 16082117
> 
> 
> View attachment 16082118
> 
> 
> ??


Yes, the black (fake) dial is in the Poljot case. Here is how this case looks and how the movement sits inside (with the spacer). This case has the code 633 (if I am not mistaken). The question is: was a Poljot with the white dial ever made in case 633. Please check catalogs. I was only able to find your dial in 813 case.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16082365
> View attachment 16082366
> 
> 
> Yes, the black (fake) dial is in the Poljot case. Here is how this case looks and how the movement sits inside (with the spacer). This case has the code 633 (if I am not mistaken). The question is: was a Poljot with the white dial ever made in case 633. Please check catalogs. I was only able to find your dial in 813 case.
> View attachment 16082410


Hm, well that would be a task... might as well sell both and save me the trouble

Edit: AND NEVER BUY DE LUXE AGAIN!!!


----------



## nnsrvm

Ligavesh said:


> Ve bir Büyük Sıfır daha, üzgünüm...
> 
> _Daha iyi bir_ Büyük Sıfır elde etme arayışımda şunu buldum:
> 
> View attachment 16081986
> 
> 
> View attachment 16081987
> 
> 
> Tabii ki, 'Satın Alma Rehberi'ni okuduktan sonra hemen iade başlattım (ki bunu yapabilirim ve satıcı 30 gün içinde iade kabul ettiğini belirttiği için bu konuda bir şey yapamaz). Ama sonra bana bir mesaj ve aynı tür camla 'orijinal' bir Big Zero'nun kutusunu açtığı bir video gönderdi:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yani cam, 'Satın Alma Rehberi' - e kadar şimdi o onu refere bir yanıt aldı sadece var - O da cam orijinal olduğunu ona onaylayın katılımcılarına sorar Alman Uhrforum bir iplik başladı _olmak muss_ , düz kavisli değil.
> 
> O halde size sorum - Raketa gerçekten de Big Zeroes'u böyle bir bardakla yapmış olabilir mi? BTW, bana Rusça mesajı (tamamı değil biraz anlıyorum):
> 
> View attachment 16082005
> 
> 
> Btw, bu videodaki saat Big Zero gibi görünmüyor, altın/turuncu renkli kadran gibi bir şey gibi görünüyor...
> [/ALINTI]
> 
> 
> Ligavesh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ve bir Büyük Sıfır daha, üzgünüm...
> 
> _Daha iyi bir_ Büyük Sıfır elde etme arayışımda şunu buldum:
> 
> View attachment 16081986
> 
> 
> View attachment 16081987
> 
> 
> Tabii ki, 'Satın Alma Rehberi'ni okuduktan sonra hemen iade başlattım (ki bunu yapabilirim ve satıcı 30 gün içinde iade kabul ettiğini belirttiği için bu konuda bir şey yapamaz). Ama sonra bana bir mesaj ve aynı tür camla 'orijinal' bir Big Zero'nun kutusunu açtığı bir video gönderdi:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yani cam, 'Satın Alma Rehberi' - e kadar şimdi o onu refere bir yanıt aldı sadece var - O da cam orijinal olduğunu ona onaylayın katılımcılarına sorar Alman Uhrforum bir iplik başladı _olmak muss_ , düz kavisli değil.
> 
> O halde size sorum - Raketa gerçekten de Big Zeroes'u böyle bir bardakla yapmış olabilir mi? BTW, bana Rusça mesajı (tamamı değil biraz anlıyorum):
> 
> View attachment 16082005
> 
> 
> Btw, bu videodaki saat Big Zero gibi görünmüyor, altın/turuncu renkli kadran gibi bir şey gibi görünüyor...
> [/ALINTI]
> Endişelenmenize gerek yok.. 51 kasada orijinal bir cam.
Click to expand...


----------



## nnsrvm

You don't have to worry about it.. it's an original glass in case 51.


----------



## Ligavesh

nnsrvm said:


> You don't have to worry about it.. it's an original glass in case 51.


Really? Cause all my other watches - not just the Big Zero - but the Perestroykas from that time with the same case too - have a much higher and much flatter glass - was that a late model or something?























































Through all the other watches, when I look from the side, I can see the numbers underneath the glass cause it's so tall - on this one I can't cause it's edge is much lower (I'll make a photo of this later) - again, was that a late model with a different, lower and curved glass?


----------



## Ligavesh

elsoldemayo said:


> Looks to be missing the lume dot under the 6 and I would also want to see the movement, but assuming that checks out, despite the condition being average it's probably in the $600 - $800 range.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> View attachment 16083093
> 
> 
> View attachment 16083094


a bit franken but the movement is not that rare and can be replaced. This one has parts from, I think, 3 or 4 watches&#8230;


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> a bit franken but the movement is not that rare and can be replaced. This one has parts from, I think, 3 or 4 watches&#8230;


What parts exactly do you mean - the parts of the movement or other stuff (dial, hands, etc...)?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What parts exactly do you mean - the parts of the movement or other stuff (dial, hands, etc...)?


i was only taking about the movement. 1: flat bridge. 2: the winding wheel is flat while the ratchet wheel is beveled. 3: I would expect a Cyrillic military watch to have a Cyrillic movement. 4: old style balance w/o beat error adjustment : maybe very early had it like this but given all other issues i would suspect a replacement.


----------



## 979greenwich

See the first generation movement here:








Vostok NVCh-30 History & Reference Guide


The following Guide has been compiled to amalgamate all current information regarding the НВЧ-30. It also includes my findings over many years of collecting and researching these watches. As much information as possible has been




vintagewatchinc.com


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> See the first generation movement here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok NVCh-30 History & Reference Guide
> 
> 
> The following Guide has been compiled to amalgamate all current information regarding the НВЧ-30. It also includes my findings over many years of collecting and researching these watches. As much information as possible has been
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vintagewatchinc.com


i saw it before. This is why I said 'maybe balances w/o beat error regulator were used'. I can even agree on the English text on the bridge. But there is no way one bridge was flat and the rest beveled. Also the ratchet and winding wheels must have same geometry. One cannot be flat and another beveled. So maybe I over inflated the number of watches used to build this watch but 'a bit franken' is spot on.


----------



## palletwheel

Ligavesh said:


> Hm, well that would be a task... might as well sell both and save me the trouble
> 
> Edit: AND NEVER BUY DE LUXE AGAIN!!!


Remember, half the fun is the search


----------



## palletwheel

I came across this interesting 2MCh Pobeda, wondering when they changed the movement mark and if it's really right for the dial and case. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I came across this interesting 2MCh Pobeda, wondering when they changed the movement mark and if it's really right for the dial and case. Thanks!


very good question! Unfortunately I do not remember&#8230; the bigger issue with this model is&#8230; hands! There are early version and later version. They are very similar. Hands are easily damaged and hence a lot of watches have later version. It is nearly impossible to find the old hands. So before buying, make sure the hands are right for the time period of the watch. See this similar watch? Unfortunately this is all that I remember


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> very good question! Unfortunately I do not remember&#8230; the bigger issue with this model is&#8230; hands! There are early version and later version. They are very similar. Hands are easily damaged and hence a lot of watches have later version. It is nearly impossible to find the old hands. So before buying, make sure the hands are right for the time period of the watch. See this similar watch? Unfortunately this is all that I remember
> View attachment 16084237


Thanks, yes I was looking that and this:





__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





Note the difference in crowns. Sadly not the best picture but it's a thinner crown so more of a match to the one I posted, I think the same hands, but still different dial. Wow, I stumped sensei


----------



## Jozobr

Hello guys! First time posting here. Looking to buy a scuba dude.

Found this listing. Does it look like a original?

thanks!









Rare USSR WATCH WOSTOK Scuba Dude Automatic Amphibian VOSTOK Blue Serviced | eBay


They are from a bygone era. ● New arrivals every week. Photos are real.



www.ebay.com


----------



## 979greenwich

Second hand is not. Would also rather see a black bakelite bezel on that one.








Amphibia Cassa Neptune 9370 | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


vostok amphibia neptune




vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org


----------



## Ligavesh

Which one has the correct bezel ( and is it the same model at all)?


----------



## palletwheel

Found this Luch TV. It seems reasonable, am I missing anything? If anyone can translate the inscription would also be appreciated. Would also like to know what years they made it. I can't find the catalog entry for it. It seems such a 70s watch but @mroatman has it as 80s. I found a version in a 76 catalog (super tiny in a group shot) but clearly different hands. Note AU-10 mark. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Found this Luch TV. It seems reasonable, am I missing anything? If anyone can translate the inscription would also be appreciated. Would also like to know what years they made it. I can't find the catalog entry for it. It seems such a 70s watch but @mroatman has it as 80s. I found a version in a 76 catalog (super tiny in a group shot) but clearly different hands. Note AU-10 mark. Thanks!


Agree: hands may be wrong. From 70s. Back says
To Dear (loving) Husband Evgeniy
From &#8230;. (Probably 'wife') 
&#8230; 1978 year


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Which one has the correct bezel ( and is it the same model at all)?
> 
> View attachment 16086333
> 
> 
> View attachment 16086334
> 
> 
> View attachment 16086335


Either bezel is correct IMHO, as is either a chrome or red painted seconds hand with lume, the first dial is for the domestic market and the second is for export (looks like it's missing it's tension ring) but as both the catalogue images of this watch show this dial in a 320 case then that's what I'd get it in as I think the first dial in a 470 case isn't correct...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> Either bezel is correct IMHO, as is either a chrome or red painted seconds hand with lume, the first dial is for the domestic market and the second is for export (looks like it's missing it's tension ring) but as both the catalogue images of this watch show this dial in a 320 case then that's what I'd get it in as I think the first dial in a 470 case isn't correct...
> 
> View attachment 16086578


Sh**, already got it (the first one)... The thing is, it looks too immaculate, like never worn (as is often the case with collectors in Germany, they keep stuff for display, never use it) -that's why I thought - it _has to _ have come with that bezel... Will make photos when it arrives, otherwise I'll be on a hunt for such a bezel again - I found one once, will find one again.

Edit: Btw, is it _really _the same model? Mroatman has it but with an unbrushed case and white dial - just like in the second picture and the picture from the catalogue; also they are all white - the one I bought is with a brushed case and a dark dial - can it be that it's just from sun exposure? Especially when it looks pristine, like a collector's item?










Edit2: I was thinking, maybe it's a variation of this model (which I also already have) -notice the brushed case:


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Sh**, already got it (the first one)... The thing is, it looks too immaculate, like never worn (as is often the case with collectors in Germany, they keep stuff for display, never use it) -that's why I thought - it _has to _ have come with that bezel... Will make photos when it arrives, otherwise I'll be on a hunt for such a bezel again - I found one once, will find one again.
> 
> Edit: Btw, is it _really _the same model? Mroatman has it but with an unbrushed case and white dial - just like in the second picture and the picture from the catalogue; also they are all white - the one I bought is with a brushed case and a dark dial - can it be that it's just from sun exposure? Especially when it looks pristine, like a collector's item?
> 
> View attachment 16086809
> 
> 
> Edit2: I was thinking, maybe it's a variation of this model (which I also already have) -notice the brushed case:
> 
> View attachment 16086827


I think the chrome bezel with triangles is ok on the first watch as is the black bezel, as to which dial it is? well there are several dials that use this basic design...the 234 (white), the 299 (green bottom half), and the 521 (green edges all round and always found in the 020 case...)

But a quick Google of a 470234 and there are no results, a 470299 is a known combination and found in the catalogues, again a 470521 there are no results...so it's either a 234 dial in the wrong case or a 299 dial in the correct case but for some reason the green wasn't added to the bottom half of the dial...so as you say a unknown variation (confusing I know)


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> I think the chrome bezel with triangles is ok on the first watch as is the black bezel, as to which dial it is? well there are several dials that use this basic design...the 234 (white), the 299 (green bottom half), and the 521 (green edges all round and always found in the 020 case...)
> 
> But a quick Google of a 470234 and there are no results, a 470299 is a known combination and found in the catalogues, again a 470521 there are no results...so it's either a 234 dial in the wrong case or a 299 dial in the correct case but for some reason the green wasn't added to the bottom half of the dial...so as you say a unknown variation (confusing I know)


...and the 298 with blue upper half (that I'm looking for)

ah, maybe it is a 299 or a 298 with the color faded, or a darkened 234 for some reason in a 470 case... not gonna give it much thought for 60 €, worst case I sell it again and get some of the money back (that would go towards a budget for a 470298 when I find a good one)... we'll see when it arrives


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> ...and the 298 with blue upper half (that I'm looking for)
> 
> ah, maybe it is a 299 or a 298 with the color faded, or a darkened 234 for some reason in a 470 case... not gonna give it much thought for 60 €, worst case I sell it again and get some of the money back... we'll see when it arrives


It could be any of these things, that's why if you want a "safe" collection then it's best only to collect exactly as shown in the catalogues otherwise you can never be 100% sure...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> It could be any of these things, that's why if you want a "safe" collection then it's best only to collect exactly as shown in the catalogues otherwise you can never be 100% sure...


Wait, I've got another one for you (actually two):




























Now, aside from the bezel, the first one seems ok with what's in the catalogue... The second one though, it has weirdly a smaller triangle at 12 with a lume pip above it (not like in the catalogue or Mroatman's) - but the dial doesn't look fake(d), does it? Could it be a variation?


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> Wait, I've got another one for you (actually two):
> 
> View attachment 16087106
> 
> 
> View attachment 16087109
> 
> 
> View attachment 16087112
> 
> 
> Now, aside from the bezel, the first one seems ok with what's in the catalogue... The second one though, it has weirdly a smaller triangle at 12 with a lume pip above it (not like in the catalogue or Mroatman's) - but the dial doesn't look fake(d), does it? Could it be a variation?


I'll just get the bezels out of the way  on the first watch it's taken from a Komandirskie (should have lume pip), second bezel is correct IMHO and a legit variant...

Both dials are original IMHO, the first is made for export and the second is domestic market, the lume pip at 12 is another variant...these were produced over several years so there will be variants...

Another with lume pip on Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> I'll just get the bezels out of the way  on the first watch it's taken from a Komandirskie (should have lume pip), second bezel is correct IMHO and a legit variant...
> 
> Both dials are original IMHO, the first is made for export and the second is domestic market, the lume pip at 12 is another variant...these were produced over several years so there will be variants...
> 
> Another with lume pip on Vostok Amphibia CCCP


Thanks a lot, and thanks for the link, very nice overview of the different models


----------



## AaParker

Interesting, but it seems perhaps a bit improbable with USA on the dial? Might be an example of détente ? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

This question comes quite often: is the crystal on a Big Zero (or a similar Raketa in same case) is authentic Soviet one or recently produced. Here is a photo showing them side by side (thanks to one of my Instagram follower). I hope this helps. Save it!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> This question comes quite often: is the crystal on a Big Zero (or a similar Raketa in same case) is authentic Soviet one or recently produced. Here is a photo showing them side by side (thanks to one of my Instagram follower). I hope this helps. Save it!
> View attachment 16088279


Already sent that back. What bugs me most about the new glass is that it has a lower edge, so you don't have this effect where when you look from the side, you see a 'double' picture of the dial through the side and throigh the top. Why didn't they just continue making the old glass?


----------



## cookiemonster94

Is this legit?

What makes me question is is the "zakaz mo ssr" writing. It looks like it's a different font on the right side:


----------



## mariomart

cookiemonster94 said:


> Is this legit?
> 
> What makes me question is is the "zakaz mo ssr" writing. It looks like it's a different font on the right side:
> View attachment 16089071


That's one of the infamous Chinese knock-offs from the 90's when all things "Soviet" were a kind of fad. Nothing on this watch is interchangeable with a real Komandirskie.


----------



## cookiemonster94

mariomart said:


> That's one of the infamous Chinese knock-offs from the 90's when all things "Soviet" were a kind of fad. Nothing on this watch is interchangeable with a real Komandirskie.


Now that you mention it, there are several other small details that are off.
Thanks for the reply.


----------



## ido23131

Hi guys, I've recently picked this Vostok for repair. It seems original as far as I can tell but I'll appreciate your input.
It looks like an 80's ~ Komandirskye but I'm not sure.


----------



## Avidfan

ido23131 said:


> Hi guys, I've recently picked this Vostok for repair. It seems original as far as I can tell but I'll appreciate your input.
> It looks like an 80's ~ Komandirskye but I'm not sure.
> View attachment 16093518
> 
> View attachment 16093520
> 
> View attachment 16093521


Unusual dial! A Vostok 2414A movement in a chrome Type 34 case, notice that there is no country of origin on the dial which will mean that it's post-Soviet, the movement is typical of 1993-1995 production, both the dial and the caseback have the Russian word that roughly translates as "waterproof"


----------



## ido23131

Avidfan said:


> Unusual dial! A Vostok 2414A movement in a chrome Type 34 case, notice that there is no country of origin on the dial which will mean that it's post-Soviet, the movement is typical of 1993-1995 production, both the dial and the caseback have the Russian word that roughly translates as "waterproof"


Thank you for this info! Could you explain why the dial is unusual?


----------



## Avidfan

ido23131 said:


> Thank you for this info! Could you explain why the dial is unusual?


I don't think I've ever seen it before, there is a big gap in the known post-Soviet Vostok catalogues from the 1990's, maybe a new catalogue will be found one day and the dial will be in there...


----------



## Ligavesh

Avidfan said:


> It could be any of these things, that's why if you want a "safe" collection then it's best only to collect exactly as shown in the catalogues otherwise you can never be 100% sure...


It's actually a very paled 470298 😅 Don't know why it came out the way it did in the pictures, I don't think you see the color that well in my photo either:










I'm thinking what to do with it - sell it? Keep it? Cause other than the color of the dial, everything on this one is top notch. I've seen models with okay dials but bad hands and bezels -maybe buy that one, put the dial in this one, sell the rest for some small amount of money (or keep it - maybe I'll turn to modding one day?)? We'll see, it's not that much money.


----------



## Avidfan

Ligavesh said:


> It's actually a very paled 470298 😅 Don't know why it came out the way it did in the pictures, I don't think you see the color that well in my photo either:
> 
> View attachment 16094564
> 
> 
> I'm thinking what to do with it - sell it? Keep it? Cause other than the color of the dial, everything on this one is top notch. I've seen models with okay dials but bad hands and bezels -maybe buy that one, put the dial in this one, sell the rest for some small amount of money (or keep it - maybe I'll turn to modding one day?)? We'll see, it's not that much money.


Yes just a little blue so a 470298, it just goes to show that often you can't trust sellers pictures and you won't know what you've really got until the watch is actually in your hand


----------



## steros

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks a lot, and thanks for the link, very nice overview of the different models


Mine is also the variant with smaller triangle and lume dot. I wasn't aware that there are two versions.


----------



## steros

Are there more than one type of Vostok "tonneau" case? Is it just the photo or does this one have more narrow "ends" than the classic model?


----------



## mariomart

steros said:


> Are there more than one type of Vostok "tonneau" case? Is it just the photo or does this one have more narrow "ends" than the classic model?
> View attachment 16096870


This is a modified Vostok Amphibia Type 119 case. They occasionally pop up in auctions. Sometimes done to "refresh" a damaged case, sometimes done just for Shytes and Giggles.


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> I don't think I've ever seen it before, there is a big gap in the known post-Soviet Vostok catalogues from the 1990's, maybe a new catalogue will be found one day and the dial will be in there...


What is the long word in russian? Not "komandirskie" right?


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> What is the long word in russian? Not "komandirskie" right?


The long Russian word roughly translates as "waterproof", you will see the same word on many Komandirskie casebacks.


----------



## steros

While I'm at it, what is this interesting thing? A post ussr-era case with an older dial? Or something totally home made?


----------



## steros

steros said:


> While I'm at it, what is this interesting thing? A post ussr-era case with an older dial? Or something totally home made?
> View attachment 16097732
> View attachment 16097733


I couldn't imagine that you could make this out of a classic tonneau, but now when I look on other examples I guess it could be done. So this is also one of those home modded tonneau cases?


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> I couldn't imagine that you could make this out of a classic tonneau, but now when I look on other examples I guess it could be done. So this is also one of those home modded tonneau cases?


Yes another modded 119 case, the watch started out as a 1190046, there's a lot of stainless steel on a tonneau case so several styles of "new" cases can be made...


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> Yes another modded 119 case, the watch started out as a 1190046, there's a lot of stainless steel on a tonneau case so several styles of "new" cases can be made...


That is interesting, and I actually think this one looks pretty good.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends! 
Can you help me with this Komandirskie? I have seen some conflicting information regarding the second hand on these double barred early generations. Mroatman's site has the second hand with an arrow but the early generation Komandirskie thread has seen second hands like the one pictured.
I've already asked the seller if the stop second feature is functioning but I'd appreciate feedback. Thanks!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
Early Generation Komandirskie's
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> Can you help me with this Komandirskie? I have seen some conflicting information regarding the second hand on these double barred early generations. Mroatman's site has the second hand with an arrow but the early generation Komandirskie thread has seen second hands like the one pictured.
> I've already asked the seller if the stop second feature is functioning but I'd appreciate feedback. Thanks!
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...&share_fid=13788&share_type=t&link_source=app
> Early Generation Komandirskie's
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


I would say the seconds hand is wrong and needs the arrow tip. Lets see what other folks say. Other 2 hands are relumed (nicely).


----------



## steros

Is this all fake? The "cccp" on the dial must be fake. And no "Vostok" marking or logo anywhere.








New Custom Made USSR VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE 2409 Movement VINTAGE MILITARY WATCH | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for New Custom Made USSR VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE 2409 Movement VINTAGE MILITARY WATCH at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## steros

steros said:


> Is this all fake? The "cccp" on the dial must be fake. And no "Vostok" marking or logo anywhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New Custom Made USSR VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE 2409 Movement VINTAGE MILITARY WATCH | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for New Custom Made USSR VOSTOK KOMANDIRSKIE 2409 Movement VINTAGE MILITARY WATCH at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I will answer myself, again&#8230; Didn't really read the posting&#8230; NEW CUSTOM VINTAGE, no need for further comments.


----------



## Floyd89

Hi team!

I am new to Soviet watches (and all watches actually).

I have decided that the first watch that I would like to buy is a Luch 2209 with a black face and am thinking about buying the watch in the images below.

Based off what I have learnt the watch appears genuine, The hands, face and action all appear correct. The case may or may not have been replaced, but this does not bother me.

Any guidance before I spend my hard earned money would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Odessa200

Floyd89 said:


> Hi team!
> 
> I am new to Soviet watches (and all watches actually).
> 
> I have decided that the first watch that I would like to buy is a Luch 2209 with a black face and am thinking about buying the watch in the images below.
> 
> Based off what I have learnt the watch appears genuine, The hands, face and action all appear correct. The case may or may not have been replaced, but this does not bother me.
> 
> Any guidance before I spend my hard earned money would be greatly appreciated.
> View attachment 16102829
> View attachment 16102830
> View attachment 16102831
> View attachment 16102832


Welcome! All is good (including the case) except the crown. Although the crown is replaced it maybe be much easier to wind than with original (that is quite small)


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello again friends. Any thoughts on this Komandirskie? Once again, it comes down to that second hand, as I'm not sure it's correct. It is a hacking 2214. 
Thanks again.
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks fine to me. First Komandirskies had a second hand with an arrow tip, and then in the '70 with also an arrow tail.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello again friends. Any thoughts on this Komandirskie? Once again, it comes down to that second hand, as I'm not sure it's correct. It is a hacking 2214.
> Thanks again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Looks good to me.


----------



## Tianlung4028

979greenwich said:


> Looks fine to me. First Komandirskies had a second hand with an arrow tip, and then in the '70 with also an arrow tail.


Thanks for the help! Are you suggesting that this piece is one from the earlier ones or a piece from the 70s?

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thanks for the help! Are you suggesting that this piece is one from the earlier ones or a piece from the 70s?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


 Would say this is early 70s


----------



## 979greenwich

Yes, late '60s, early '70s.


----------



## jimzilla

I have a 710 SE full set (with what I think is an old style case?) that came in the other day and I need it authenticated by our resident experts.
The bracelet has been shortened but the seller included 3 extra links and pins.
Thanks so much in advance, James.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends. I found another Komandirskie that seems interesting. The listing gives is a 2234 with hacking. Do you think the red star has been recolored? Thoughts on the movement and dial?
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends. I found another Komandirskie that seems interesting. The listing gives is a 2234 with hacking. Do you think the red star has been recolored? Thoughts on the movement and dial?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Star is for sure re-colored. And looks like some cleaning on the dial because there is some damage next to each hour index. Someone was trying to make the dial a bit better looking.
the rest looks Ok.


----------



## Chascomm

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends. I found another Komandirskie that seems interesting. The listing gives is a 2234 with hacking. Do you think the red star has been recolored? Thoughts on the movement and dial?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Can the seller send you another photo showing a different date? Or of the dial from a different angle? There's something about that photo that just doesn't look right.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Chascomm said:


> Can the seller send you another photo showing a different date? Or of the dial from a different angle? There's something about that photo that just doesn't look right.


Will this do? I have a couple more if needed. I think there's some heavy pitting on the crystal. What are you thinking is off about it?
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Chascomm

Tianlung4028 said:


> Will this do? I have a couple more if needed. I think there's some heavy pitting on the crystal. What are you thinking is off about it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


That answers my question. The entire dial looked like a print of an image of a dial. From the different angle the date window looks real, so all good.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Chascomm said:


> That answers my question. The entire dial looked like a print of an image of a dial. From the different angle the date window looks real, so all good.


Thanks for the second opinion! I'm not quite sure on this one as the (poor) recoloring of the red star kinda kills it for me.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## mariomart

Chascomm said:


> Can the seller send you another photo showing a different date? Or of the dial from a different angle? There's something about that photo that just doesn't look right.


Yeah, the date window looks odd, however here is a photo I just took of mine for comparison, it could be a light reflection around the date window.


----------



## doobyscooby

real or fake?


----------



## Chascomm

doobyscooby said:


> real or fake?
> View attachment 16108397
> View attachment 16108398


I'm pretty sure that nobody has ever faked a Cardi Capitan. I can't see anything out of place on it either. The date fits the window so it's still running a Vostok 2414


----------



## Ligavesh

This Raketa looks genuine, but there is no "СДЕЛАНО В СССР" on it - could it be it's a transition model?



















I honestly doubt it's a fake, it looks like a collector's model (judging by the strap, loved in Germany in the 80s-90s for some reason, and by the overall cosmetic condition)...


----------



## elsoldemayo

Looks fine, Dashiell has the exact model on his site. Also as you mention it's not a common model and one I've yet to see faked.


----------



## Floyd89

Just making sure everything is in order before I buy.


----------



## Odessa200

Floyd89 said:


> Just making sure everything is in order before I buy.
> View attachment 16111462
> View attachment 16111463
> View attachment 16111464
> View attachment 16111466


All good as far as I see. A very good and rare early movement!


----------



## Floyd89

Thank you very much!


----------



## trapper777

Hello again! I am considering purchasing this raketa, it looks good to me, but does anyone see anything wrong with it? Thanks!!


----------



## elsoldemayo

All the parts look fine. Only doubt is the dial is post Soviet but the movement is marked SU. Probably just leftover parts but let’s see what others say.


----------



## jimzilla

Is this watch real or franken,Looks like a new dial face, anything else? thank you, James.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Is this watch real or franken,Looks like a new dial face, anything else? thank you, James.
> View attachment 16115782
> 
> View attachment 16115788
> 
> 
> View attachment 16115790


Yep, new dial. The movement and the back have English text while both should be in Russian (for this dial) but this is not that important given fake dial.


----------



## jimzilla

What about this one Odessa200?
Sorry I was not able to get a shot of the movement.
the crown looks off?


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> What about this one Odessa200?
> Sorry I was not able to get a shot of the movement.
> the crown looks off?
> 
> View attachment 16116594
> 
> 
> View attachment 16116595


Same: new dial. Agree, Crown is not right.


----------



## danshakuimo

I am new and just getting into Vostoks and bought this one off eBay. The dial is rare, and it is inside a Vostok Troika case with a 2409A Soviet Union-made movement. However, does anyone know if this is a frankenwatch? I asked someone and they said the case is much more modern (1998+) while the dial is from 1989-96. The eBay seller indicated the watch as being manufactured between 1979-89 but the "age" as being 1980-89.


----------



## Avidfan

danshakuimo said:


> I am new and just getting into Vostoks and bought this one off eBay. The dial is rare, and it is inside a Vostok Troika case with a 2409A Soviet Union-made movement. However, does anyone know if this is a frankenwatch? I asked someone and they said the case is much more modern (1998+) while the dial is from 1989-96. The eBay seller indicated the watch as being manufactured between 1979-89 but the "age" as being 1980-89.
> View attachment 16117767
> View attachment 16117765


Yes a complete franken, Troika case from the late 1990's, old Soviet 2409A with early balance spring stud holder, modern short lume Amphibia hands only used from around 2004 etc...


----------



## danshakuimo

Avidfan said:


> Yes a complete franken, Troika case from the late 1990's, old Soviet 2409A with early balance spring stud holder, modern short lume Amphibia hands only used from around 2004 etc...


Welp, I probably paid a bit too much for a frankenwatch, only a slight bit cheaper than a new Komandirsike. But I liked the dial, and now I don't have to feel bad about recasing the watch and violating the "sanctity" of the original design.

However, would you happen to know which of the components of the watch may have originally been in a watch together? e.g. the dial and movement. I have also seen another watch like this with the same dial and similar style-hands, but idk if that one is legit either. Mens Vintage Wrist Watch USSR VOSTOK Komandirskie Ancient | Etsy


----------



## Avidfan

danshakuimo said:


> Welp, I probably paid a bit too much for a frankenwatch, only a slight bit cheaper than a new Komandirsike. But I liked the dial, and now I don't have to feel bad about recasing the watch and violating the "sanctity" of the original design.
> 
> However, would you happen to know which of the components of the watch may have originally been in a watch together? e.g. the dial and movement. I have also seen another watch like this with the same dial and similar style-hands, but idk if that one is legit either. Mens Vintage Wrist Watch USSR VOSTOK Komandirskie Ancient | Etsy


On your watch none of the components belong together, you've got a post-Soviet dial from the 1990's, a late 1970's to mid 1980's movement, a late 1990's case and hands introduced around 2004...

The Etsy watch is another franken...brand new Type 92 case, new Amphibia hands, dial is again post-Soviet 1990's, a Soviet "Time Trend" caseback (Italian export) and an old pre-1985 movement.

A tip worth remembering as regards dating Vostok movements is December 1984 and earlier they will have a serial number stamped on the mainplate under the balance wheel, from January 1985 there will be no serial number on the mainplate, obviously a 1990's Vostok dial should never be seen with a serial numbered movement...


----------



## Flari

Hi all!

I've only started looking into Russian watches earlier this week and I had no idea what a complex world I was stepping into!

After 20+ hours of scouring the Internet and this forum, I've stumbled upon these two potential watches, and I would like your opinion on them.

My main objective is to avoid fantasy watches. As we are not collectors as such (yet anyway), some level of "frankening" would be suitable. I'm concerned by the fact that there is no number engraved on the movements here (although the seller of the first one told me "The watch has original parts")...

Thanking you so much for your help!


----------



## steros

Flari said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I've only started looking into Russian watches earlier this week and I had no idea what a complex world I was stepping into!
> 
> After 20+ hours of scouring the Internet and this forum, I've stumbled upon these two potential watches, and I would like your opinion on them.
> 
> My main objective is to avoid fantasy watches. As we are not collectors as such (yet anyway), some level of "frankening" would be suitable. I'm concerned by the fact that there is no number engraved on the movements here (although the seller of the first one told me "The watch has original parts")...
> 
> Thanking you so much for your help!
> 
> View attachment 16125763
> View attachment 16125764
> View attachment 16125765
> 
> View attachment 16125768
> View attachment 16125771
> View attachment 16125772


As far as I know these are two real Vostok models from the 1980's, commemorating earlier soviet polar expeditions. Both dial designs are real, but I don't know if the dials might be faked. Case type is the right one, and this design of case back, and the presence of serial numbers on the case backs, are good signs of authenticity and proof that they (at least the case backs) were made during the ussr era. Others can answer for the movements. These models are mentioned here:








Unique Soviet Watches In The Italian Market: Komandirskies


timebehindtheironcurtain We continue our journey focusing on Soviet watches manufactured for the Italian market, which we started here and continued with a chapter dedicated to Raketa. Today…




www.safonagastrocrono.club


----------



## Flari

steros said:


> As far as I know these are two real Vostok models from the 1980's, commemorating earlier soviet polar expeditions. Both dial designs are real, but I don't know if the dials might be faked. Case type is the right one, and this design of case back, and the presence of serial numbers on the case backs, are good signs of authenticity and proof that they (at least the case backs) were made during the ussr era. Others can answer for the movements. These models are mentioned here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unique Soviet Watches In The Italian Market: Komandirskies
> 
> 
> timebehindtheironcurtain We continue our journey focusing on Soviet watches manufactured for the Italian market, which we started here and continued with a chapter dedicated to Raketa. Today…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.safonagastrocrono.club


Thank you steros!

I had looked at that Italian market link, but unfortunately most images of the Buran watches won't open for me, so I had to dig further to find pictures. I'm just realising that the length and the colour of the second hand seems wrong on the second watch I posted; I think it should be longer and gold...

I've also just stumbled upon this watch (below), but the back stamp is different from the one on the first watch in my previous post. However, there is a movement number this time. This is all so confusing!

Thanks again for your help!


----------



## palletwheel

Can someone please comment on this Antarctic watch, is this actually correct?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Can someone please comment on this Antarctic watch, is this actually correct?


no, not correct. It is missing gilded body of the right shape (this one is completely wrong)


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> no, not correct. It is missing gilded body of the right shape (this one is completely wrong)


Thanks very much. Is there a reference somewhere, couldn't find in a catalog or @mroatman so was flying blind here.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks very much. Is there a reference somewhere, couldn't find in a catalog or @mroatman so was flying blind here.


here you go buddy. Note, there is another similar case that is frequently used to franken these. Make sure you compare carefully!


----------



## Flari

Hi again!

I've stumbled upon another potential watch that I would like to have your opinion on, this Raketa Soyuz.

I'm not sure about the caseback/lack of serial/3 digit number.

Thanks again!


----------



## Odessa200

Flari said:


> Hi again!
> 
> I've stumbled upon another potential watch that I would like to have your opinion on, this Raketa Soyuz.
> 
> I'm not sure about the caseback/lack of serial/3 digit number.
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> View attachment 16128558
> View attachment 16128559
> View attachment 16128560


It is perfect. Grab it. All correct. Just do not ever break the crystal. This one is a giant pain to get and install.


----------



## Flari

Odessa200 said:


> It is perfect. Grab it. All correct. Just do not ever break the crystal. This one is a giant pain to get and install.


Thank you so much! I'm taking the plunge, so!


----------



## Ligavesh

Goddamit, I was looking for one of those for a long time, found only one with the same print, but no texture, not sure if it's legit or not...


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello! Can you give me a hand with this Type 1?

Thanks!























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Flari

Hi! Me again...

After finding the Soyuz for my husband, I sort of want a watch of my own now. I'm afraid this could be addicting...

My question is : was there ever a green "linen" Raketa produced or is this a franken?

Thank you once again! This forum is fantastic!


----------



## Ligavesh

Flari said:


> Hi! Me again...
> 
> After finding the Soyuz for my husband, I sort of want a watch of my own now. I'm afraid this could be addicting...
> 
> My question is : was there ever a green "linen" Raketa produced or is this a franken?
> 
> Thank you once again! This forum is fantastic!
> 
> View attachment 16129967
> View attachment 16129982


Don't know the answer to your question, but if your husband decides he doesn't like the watch (the Soyuz) for some reason, I'd gladly overpay for it.


----------



## Flari

Ligavesh said:


> Don't know the answer to your question, but if your husband decides he doesn't like the watch (the Soyuz) for some reason, I'd gladly overpay for it.


Haha! Noted. But frankly, I think if he doesn't want it, I'll keep it for myself!


----------



## Sindbad

Hello guys, hope all of you are doing well. Like many of the people here I started to look at soviet watches recently. I've found two models that I really like, I think that one is legit but I have doubt on the second one

1st watch :
















2nd watch :








What are your thoughts guys? 
thanks in advance!


----------



## elsoldemayo

The Raketa looks ok but the second one is a modern watch. There have been some modern re-issues of Sturmanskie watches, but I think this one is a fantasy watch.


----------



## Sindbad

elsoldemayo said:


> The Raketa looks ok but the second one is a modern watch. There have been some modern re-issues of Sturmanskie watches, but I think this one is a fantasy watch.


That's also what I thought, thank you. Also there is the « su » on the movement of the first one, what bothering me on the second one is that the website said that the watch is from the 70s&#8230;


----------



## Odessa200

Sindbad said:


> That's also what I thought, thank you. Also there is the « su » on the movement of the first one, what bothering me on the second one is that the website said that the watch is from the 70s&#8230;
> 
> View attachment 16130520


SU is correct. Raketa is fine.


----------



## Odessa200

Flari said:


> Hi! Me again...
> 
> After finding the Soyuz for my husband, I sort of want a watch of my own now. I'm afraid this could be addicting...
> 
> My question is : was there ever a green "linen" Raketa produced or is this a franken?
> 
> Thank you once again! This forum is fantastic!
> 
> View attachment 16129967
> View attachment 16129982


I wish I can say for sure but early 90s and 2000s watches are hard to verify. So only guessing that it is a 'maybe'. They made plenty of colors in the 90s. Here is just a sample. Based on what I see (Russian made dial and Soviet made movement) it can be an early 90s watch. Not a rare variation so if you like it and the price is right get it. Why not?
2nd image shows a similar watch (I was looking for the dial/hands/case combination that is similar to yours)


----------



## Flari

Odessa200 said:


> I wish I can say for sure but early 90s and 2000s watches are hard to verify. So only guessing that it is a 'maybe'. They made plenty of colors in the 90s. Here is just a sample. Based on what I see (Russian made dial and Soviet made movement) it can be an early 90s watch. Not a rare variation so if you like it and the price is right get it. Why not?
> 2nd image shows a similar watch (I was looking for the dial/hands/case combination that is similar to yours)


Thank you so much Odessa! I really like the colour, so I have made an offer. Let's see what comes of it.


----------



## Sindbad

Odessa200 said:


> SU is correct. Raketa is fine.


Thank you Odessa, and what do you think about the second one ? Seems original to you ?


----------



## Odessa200

Sindbad said:


> Thank you Odessa, and what do you think about the second one ? Seems original to you ?


not at all. Fake of the worst quality. I would appreciate at least the matching hands were used (why the seconds hand is yellow???). This was put with a fake dial and whatever hands were available. Bad. Probably the cheapest late Zim inside. Nothing to do with Shturmanskie.


----------



## Sindbad

Odessa200 said:


> not at all. Fake of the worst quality. I would appreciate at least the matching hands were used (why the seconds hand is yellow???). This was put with a fake dial and whatever hands were available. Bad. Probably the cheapest late Zim inside. Nothing to do with Shturmanskie.


Thank you a lot, I got an offer at 90€ for the Raketa, I'm looking on eBay if it's a good price or no, thanks again for the help!


----------



## palletwheel

This is an interesting Slava, supposedly NOS very late Soviet Fridge design ca very late 80s, or 90, 91. Appreciate all comments, and would like to know what this is worth if legit. Many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> This is an interesting Slava, supposedly NOS very late Soviet Fridge design ca very late 80s, or 90, 91. Appreciate all comments, and would like to know what this is worth if legit. Many thanks!


Passport has the right style. Date in the passport is 1990. The watch is right except for the replaced Seconds hand (it is too red and too short). The rest looks new and right. Not sure how come the hand is replaced. Maybe original got damaged during a service.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Passport has the right style. Date in the passport is 1990. The watch is right except for the replaced Seconds hand (it is too red and too short). The rest looks new and right. Not sure how come the hand is replaced. Maybe original got damaged during a service.


Well "NOS" in this hobby can often really be "NQR" (Not Quite Right)  Thanks!


----------



## Andrew120

Thoughts on this one? It has the 2209 movement.


----------



## Odessa200

Andrew120 said:


> Thoughts on this one? It has the 2209 movement.
> 
> View attachment 16134585


Not much to say: it is a Raketa with a hand made flower on the dial. Maybe someone made this customized gift. Frequently art like this is added to cover up a dial blemish.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, someone knows if my Raketa 24h is all original? Now i don't have movement photo, but can take it. Also the movement i think is correct, a 2623.

I can't find this exact model on any catalog, so do you know if this configutation bezel-dial is correct?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Ligavesh

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, someone knows if my Raketa 24h is all original? Now i don't have movement photo, but can take it. Also the movement i think is correct, a 2623.
> 
> I can't find this exact model on any catalog, so do you know if this configutation bezel-dial is correct?
> 
> Thanks in advance


It's correct. From 90s catalogue:


----------



## Victorv

Ligavesh said:


> It's correct. From 90s catalogue:
> 
> View attachment 16139894


Thank you so much comrade, but this is made in russia and mine is CCCP, maybe exist both because this image is from the early 90s, right?

A very confusing period in Soviet watchmaking


----------



## Ligavesh

Victorv said:


> Thank you so much comrade, but this is made in russia and mine is CCCP, maybe exist both because this image is from the early 90s, right?
> 
> A very confusing period in Soviet watchmaking


Probably, I don't see why not. I've seen pictures of this watch with a gilded case and black bezel, a whole gilded case etc...


----------



## Victorv

Ligavesh said:


> Probably, I don't see why not. I've seen pictures of this watch with a gilded case and black bezel, a whole gilded case etc...


Yes i saw that catalog with gilded case too, my friend. Let's see if someone knows a catalog for this CCCP model


----------



## Odessa200

Victorv said:


> Yes i saw that catalog with gilded case too, my friend. Let's see if someone knows a catalog for this CCCP model


Victor, is this what you are looking for? Is it Ok that it is in Spanish  hard to tell if indexes are gilded or not but they are for sure raised (not painted). They were making similar model with Cities in chromed case, black bezel and gilded raised indexes. So possibly made this model in the same colors. The catalog shows same watch with chromed indexes (at least this is what I see). But what does the text next to the driver says? Maybe description is detailed enough&#8230;.


----------



## Ligavesh

Btw, that's actually a model I'm looking for myself - but not now! I've bought too many watches!


----------



## steros

Odessa200 said:


> Victor, is this what you are looking for? Is it Ok that it is in Spanish  hard to tell if indexes are gilded or not but they are for sure raised (not painted). They were making similar model with Cities in chromed case, black bezel and gilded raised indexes. So possibly made this model in the same colors. The catalog shows same watch with chromed indexes (at least this is what I see). But what does the text next to the driver says? Maybe description is detailed enough&#8230;.
> 
> View attachment 16141448
> View attachment 16141449


These are really beautiful watches I think. The one to the left is my first russian watch. I bought one of those at a flee market in Sweden in the 1990's for about 10$. It was brand new, marked russia, not cccp (wich I realized many years later, I always called it a "Soviet" watch, wich it still is of course because it was designed in the ussr era). Still working very well, never serviced, now with some patina from me using it dayly for years, even in a sand storm in north Africa.


----------



## jimzilla

This is probably wishful thinking but is this one real?


----------



## Ligavesh

jimzilla said:


> This is probably wishful thinking but is this one real?
> View attachment 16142173


Judging by Mroatman's site, the second hand should be golden, otherwise correct the way I see it, model 783261 (though that model has a silver dial, but there was probably a variant with a golden dial, like there almost always was).


----------



## jimzilla

I am wondering if the dial is original


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I am wondering if the dial is original


I think so


----------



## Victorv

Odessa200 said:


> Victor, is this what you are looking for? Is it Ok that it is in Spanish  hard to tell if indexes are gilded or not but they are for sure raised (not painted). They were making similar model with Cities in chromed case, black bezel and gilded raised indexes. So possibly made this model in the same colors. The catalog shows same watch with chromed indexes (at least this is what I see). But what does the text next to the driver says? Maybe description is detailed enough&#8230;.
> 
> View attachment 16141448
> View attachment 16141449


Wooow that image is fantastic my friend

Yes, on mine indexes are chromed and raised, that's the exact same model as the one you posted , so mystery solved, the watch are 100% original.

The catalog doesn't say nothing about indexes, only tells that is a 24h watch and how to use the bezel

Many many thanks again


----------



## Ligavesh

jimzilla said:


> I am wondering if the dial is original


No way someone made a fake dial of that.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> No way someone made a fake dial of that.


i will be not from scratch but they can retouch and repaint. But this one looks legit


----------



## jimzilla

Does This Look Genuine?
Does It Have The Correct......
dial face, seconds hand, crown, case back, movement?
Thanks so much for the advise in advance, James.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> Does This Look Genuine?
> Does It Have The Correct......
> dial face, seconds hand, crown, case back, movement?
> Thanks so much for the advise in advance, James.
> View attachment 16146179
> 
> View attachment 16146181
> 
> View attachment 16146184


looks good to me


----------



## AJAJ

What do you think about that?


----------



## nnsrvm

hello friends..
I am curious about your comments for the slava amphibian whose photos I have attached. I'm especially curious about your ideas about the mechanism and its parts.
Thanks...


----------



## Odessa200

AJAJ said:


> What do you think about that?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16148861
> View attachment 16148862
> View attachment 16148864


looks like LenRemChass watch. Interesting….


----------



## Odessa200

nnsrvm said:


> hello friends..
> I am curious about your comments for the slava amphibian whose photos I have attached. I'm especially curious about your ideas about the mechanism and its parts.
> Thanks...
> 
> 
> View attachment 16148954
> View attachment 16148952
> View attachment 16148956
> View attachment 16148959


although the movement has latin text I find it possible and acceptable in this case. All looks right.


----------



## nnsrvm

Odessa200 said:


> although the movement has latin text I find it possible and acceptable in this case. All looks right.


This is the part where I'm stuck.
Is it made on the production line?
or with later collected pieces?


----------



## SinanjuStein

Seems to be all correct Slava parts if that's what you're wondering, down to the crown.


----------



## nnsrvm

SinanjuStein said:


> Seems to be all correct Slava parts if that's what you're wondering, down to the crown.


I'm stuck on the mechanism written in english


----------



## Odessa200

nnsrvm said:


> I'm stuck on the mechanism written in english


do not be. The rule is that watches made for export (latin dial) have latin movements. But there are exceptions. This is a correct movement and it is time correct. If the price is right I would get the watch. But if this bothers you, then look more and find one with Cyrillic movement to match Cyrillic dial.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> do not be. The rule is that watches made for export (latin dial) have latin movements. But there are exceptions. This is a correct movement and it is time correct. If the price is right I would get the watch. But if this bothers you, then look more and find one with Cyrillic movement to match Cyrillic dial.


It would be great if you could give the short list. So far I know:

Poljot: Latin dial Latin movement and Latin caseback 

Raketa: Can go either way, can have Latin export dial but Cyrillic movement and Cyrillic caseback.

I suppose we can add that Slava is same rule as Raketa?


----------



## AJAJ

Odessa200 said:


> looks like LenRemChass watch. Interesting….


Many thanks but I do not understand what you want to explain with LenRemChass


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> It would be great if you could give the short list. So far I know:
> 
> Poljot: Latin dial Latin movement and Latin caseback
> 
> Raketa: Can go either way, can have Latin export dial but Cyrillic movement and Cyrillic caseback.
> 
> I suppose we can add that Slava is same rule as Raketa?


all Soviet watches, except Raketa, tried to follow same rule: same language text all around. Raketa never made Latin backs. And I do not recall Latin movements. So the rule does not apply to Raketas. 
Slavas followed the rule. But there are exceptions. If the factory did not have the latin movement they could have easily placed a Cyrillic one in.
the rest is up to you. Personally I have a few watches with a mismatch language on the movement and it does not bother me much. I do want to have correct dial/back because this is visible. For the movement I care if it is correct, from the right time (old vs new) but not about the language used for the labels on it.


----------



## Odessa200

AJAJ said:


> Many thanks but I do not understand what you want to explain with LenRemChass


Read this. your watch is similar









Show us your Raketa


The Raketa factory, if I am not mistaken, had produced the largest number of Soviet calibers. You can find a Raketa watch with the least and the most complications. A flagship of the Soviet watchmaking. Lets share our favorites. I would like to start with this fantastic Atom on 2609 from the...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## N I K O L A I

Dear all,
I am wondering if this caseback cover is legit for an NVCH-30 of the third type.. Read carefully the "waterproof" written in Russian. Why is the 5th letter wrong? I mean, why does it say "водоNeпронецаемые" (wrong letter!) instead of "водоНепроницаемые"? I also read somewhere that the 3 in "300 M" should be of different font....any thoughts? Tnx!


----------



## AJAJ

Odessa200 said:


> Read this. your watch is similar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show us your Raketa
> 
> 
> The Raketa factory, if I am not mistaken, had produced the largest number of Soviet calibers. You can find a Raketa watch with the least and the most complications. A flagship of the Soviet watchmaking. Lets share our favorites. I would like to start with this fantastic Atom on 2609 from the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


Many, thanks! I though it only ocurred with Raketa watches


----------



## Odessa200

AJAJ said:


> Many, thanks! I though it only ocurred with Raketa watches


No. They used what was available. Given how the insert matches the case, It looks like them.


----------



## MattBrace

N I K O L A I said:


> Dear all,
> I am wondering if this caseback cover is legit for an NVCH-30 of the third type.. Read carefully the "waterproof" written in Russian. Why is the 5th letter wrong? I mean, why does it say "водоNeпронецаемые" (wrong letter!) instead of "водоНепроницаемые"? I also read somewhere that the 3 in "300 M" should be of different font....any thoughts? Tnx!
> View attachment 16151636


3rd Generation NVCh-30 casebacks feature 
a flat form 3 in the 300m marking and should have a serial number stamped. 

Cheers...









Vostok NVCh-30 History & Reference Guide


The following Guide has been compiled to amalgamate all current information regarding the НВЧ-30. It also includes my findings over many years of collecting and researching these watches. As much information as possible has been




vintagewatchinc.com


----------



## Odessa200

MattBrace said:


> 3rd Generation NVCh-30 casebacks feature
> a flat form 3 in the 300m marking and should have a serial number stamped.
> 
> Cheers...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok NVCh-30 History & Reference Guide
> 
> 
> The following Guide has been compiled to amalgamate all current information regarding the НВЧ-30. It also includes my findings over many years of collecting and researching these watches. As much information as possible has been
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vintagewatchinc.com


Checked with my friends: you are right, it’s a fake one.


----------



## munizfire

Odessa200 said:


> I am not sure about golden version but the dial is fake&#8230;.


what gave out the dial being fake?
mis-aligned 15 in the left?


----------



## MattBrace

Odessa200 said:


> Checked with my friends: you are right, it’s a fake one.


The 3 is slightly odd and of course simply measuring the caseback thickness will tell. But it could just be from a late Gen 2 example. So not fake just incorrect for that watch.

Cheers...


----------



## Odessa200

MattBrace said:


> The 3 is slightly odd and of course simply measuring the caseback thickness will tell. But it could just be from a late Gen 2 example. So not fake just incorrect for that watch.
> 
> Cheers...


It reads ВодоNепроМицаемые. Think it is made in China.


----------



## Odessa200

munizfire said:


> what gave out the dial being fake?
> mis-aligned 15 in the left?


not really. The whole this is way off the original. Here. Compare side by side.


----------



## MattBrace

Odessa200 said:


> It reads ВодоNепроМицаемые. Think it is made in China.


The stamping is a little vague on the "H" but I would be amazed if this is fake.

Cheers...


----------



## Odessa200

MattBrace said:


> The stamping is a little vague on the "H" but I would be amazed if this is fake.
> 
> Cheers...


i have seen a discussion on these backs on Russian forum but failed to locate it. If I recall some people were saying fake some said real. No way to figures for sure without measuring the thickness and weighting it. I think the real one is 11 grams….
My rule, for expensive watches: if in doubt do mot buy. There will be another one for sale. Even if this is real then in years when I will be selling it people will be second guessing it. So why would I need it?


----------



## munizfire

Odessa200 said:


> not really. The whole this is way off the original. Here. Compare side by side.
> View attachment 16155649
> View attachment 16155651



You're right, I used to mainly focus on the 15, but the whole left side is off. I can only assume the right side would be the same. 
Thanks mate.


----------



## Natten

Hello all,

am new to this forum and to watches, kindly request your assistance in assessing this Raketa Kopernik. Movement and dial seems correct to me but I haven't seen a case like this before on the black dial ones?


----------



## 979greenwich

Everything is wrong. A proper cutlet.


Natten said:


> Hello all,
> 
> am new to this forum and to watches, kindly request your assistance in assessing this Raketa Kopernik. Movement and dial seems correct to me but I haven't seen a case like this before on the black dial ones?
> View attachment 16156940
> View attachment 16156939
> View attachment 16156938


----------



## Natten

979greenwich said:


> Everything is wrong. A proper cutlet.


Thank you for your swift reply. Finding a genuine Copernicus seems harder than I thought. If you don't mind me asking (trying to learn), what's wrong with the movement and dial?


----------



## cookiemonster94

I'm looking for a vintage 17 jewel dial for my aphibia which has a 2409 movement despite it having a modern russian 31 jewel dial.
Somebody must have built it or its a franken. It's a beater but it kinda irks me.
Found some dials, the left looks definetly fake, not sure about the right one, would like your feedback.
I've seen some english dials with 18 instead of 17 jewels, whats that about? Bad fake or different dial type?


----------



## 979greenwich

Natten said:


> Thank you for your swift reply. Finding a genuine Copernicus seems harder than I thought. If you don't mind me asking (trying to learn), what's wrong with the movement and dial?


Movement is a combination of older and newer parts (flat + beveled bridges). Dial could be ok, I don't see very well on Tapatalk. Case, crown and second hand are wrong.


----------



## 979greenwich

cookiemonster94 said:


> I'm looking for a vintage 17 jewel dial for my aphibia which has a 2409 movement despite it having a modern russian 31 jewel dial.
> Somebody must have built it or its a franken. It's a beater but it kinda irks me.
> Found some dials, the left looks definetly fake, not sure about the right one, would like your feedback.
> I've seen some english dials with 18 instead of 17 jewels, whats that about? Bad fake or different dial type?
> View attachment 16157049
> View attachment 16157050
> View attachment 16157051


These are modern reproductions. Fakes.


----------



## cookiemonster94

Thanks for the reply, I might get one anyways, since its a beater.
Does Vostok still make 17 jewel amphibia dials?


----------



## Natten

OK, attempt 2 -- this seems to me to have the correct case and crown crystal at least, as far as I can tell from the pictures. But is the movement right?


----------



## Ligavesh

Natten said:


> OK, attempt 2 -- this seems to me to have the correct case and crown crystal at least, as far as I can tell from the pictures. But is the movement right?
> View attachment 16157228
> View attachment 16157229
> View attachment 16157230


Only the movement, the case and the dial/hands are correct, imo.


----------



## Odessa200

Natten said:


> OK, attempt 2 -- this seems to me to have the correct case and crown crystal at least, as far as I can tell from the pictures. But is the movement right?
> View attachment 16157228
> View attachment 16157229
> View attachment 16157230


still not good. :-(. Take a look at the crystal: it is not the right one. You need a flat one with the straight edges. Obviously the crown is wrong: this watch has a unique crown with a step.


----------



## Ligavesh

FWiW I'm planning on selling one of my Copernicus(es?), just need some cosmetic work done on it first... but as far as I know, all parts should be correct, so if you wait a while...


----------



## Natten

A sincere thank you to everyone for your replies, because of this info plus a reference image I found in another post on this forum I feel I now have a much better grasp of what to look for and what a genuine one should look like.


----------



## steros

It is time for me to learn more of the inside... Is there a place/site/discussion with a good overview of vostok movements, especially to help identify 24xx-movements? I would like to get better at distinguish movements made before and after 1992.


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> It is time for me to learn more of the inside... Is there a place/site/discussion with a good overview of vostok movements, especially to help identify 24xx-movements? I would like to get better at distinguish movements made before and after 1992.


I am not aware of such place. But generally speaking: Soviet movements will have SU stamps. After 1992 you will ser RUS there.


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> It is time for me to learn more of the inside... Is there a place/site/discussion with a good overview of vostok movements, especially to help identify 24xx-movements? I would like to get better at distinguish movements made before and after 1992.


A few tips for 2409A and 2414A...

Serial number on mainplate under balance means it was made December 1984 and earlier

Bevelled edges on movement until approx.1987 then straight edges

SU and calibre mark on wheel train bridge until 1988 / 1989 then no stampings

Large head ratchet wheel screw in 1991 (not countersunk) with a little dimple on the underside of the ratchet wheel

No three slot crown wheel screw after the end of 1992

White metal anti-shock springs and also white metal second hand pinion leaf spring from 1995

Also many more such as changes in calendar font every five years etc...


----------



## proto_watch

Are either of these two legit?
1














*____*
2


----------



## Odessa200

1st one looks legit. 
2nd is franken on many levels


----------



## proto_watch

Odessa200 said:


> 1st one looks legit.
> 2nd is franken on many levels


ok thanks! For my own edification which parts are franken? I think the crown isn't original but that's all I got.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Odessa200 said:


> It reads ВодоNепроМицаемые. Think it is made in China.


Dear Matt and Odessa200, your advices are always invaluable and greatly appreciated. Bravo!
I just wanted to be fair and show more pictures that I got from the seller. See below. Clearly, the inscription now reads in Russian as it should...it was just photographed at the bad angle. Other than that, the watch features incorrect glass, appropriate for 200m watches. So, another red flag and probably a deal breaker.


----------



## Odessa200

proto_watch said:


> ok thanks! For my own edification which parts are franken? I think the crown isn't original but that's all I got.


the biggest issue is a horrible crystal. It is a wrong shape and badly reshaped (sanded). 
the movement stamp cannot be read so I assume it is 2609HA (not HП).
Then the crown


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> A few tips for 2409A and 2414A...
> 
> Serial number on mainplate under balance means it was made December 1984 and earlier
> 
> Bevelled edges on movement until approx.1987 then straight edges
> 
> SU and calibre mark on wheel train bridge until 1988 / 1989 then no stampings
> 
> Large head ratchet wheel screw in 1991 (not countersunk) with a little dimple on the underside of the ratchet wheel
> 
> No three slot crown wheel screw after the end of 1992
> 
> White metal anti-shock springs and also white metal second hand pinion leaf spring from 1995
> 
> Also many more such as changes in calendar font every five years etc...


So all the komandirskies and amphibias from around 1989-92 (many of the ones I am looking at are from exactly that time period) might be all original although the movement lacks the obvious markings and beveled edges… But ratchet wheel screw and crown wheel screw will be telltales to start with then. Thank you!


----------



## randocheapwatchperson

I usually don't mind frankens as much given the low prices I buy watches at, but these two were a little bit more than what I'm accustomed to paying so I was wondering (and hoping) if they would fare better.

The crystal on the copernicus worries me.






























































the difference in print quality between the splotchy blacks and not-so-splotchy reds on this peterhof big zero, perhaps just age and different paints holding up differently instead of some dial trickery?















































It would still be fine if they weren't but it would be nice if they were 'authentic', so did I have any luck?


----------



## Ligavesh

randocheapwatchperson said:


> I usually don't mind frankens as much given the low prices I buy watches at, but these two were a little bit more than what I'm accustomed to paying so I was wondering (and hoping) if they would fare better.
> 
> The crystal on the copernicus worries me.
> 
> View attachment 16162238
> View attachment 16162239
> View attachment 16162240
> View attachment 16162241
> View attachment 16162242
> 
> View attachment 16162264
> 
> View attachment 16162265
> 
> View attachment 16162266
> 
> 
> the difference in print quality between the splotchy blacks and not-so-splotchy reds on this peterhof big zero, perhaps just age and different paints holding up differently instead of some dial trickery?
> 
> View attachment 16162243
> View attachment 16162244
> View attachment 16162245
> 
> View attachment 16162268
> View attachment 16162270
> 
> View attachment 16162271
> 
> 
> It would still be fine if they weren't but it would be nice if they were 'authentic', so did I have any luck?


The glass on the Copernicus has been replaced, should have straight angular edges.

The Big Zero I'm no expert but I would expect differences in paint from the red and black.


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> So all the komandirskies and amphibias from around 1989-92 (many of the ones I am looking at are from exactly that time period) might be all original although the movement lacks the obvious markings and beveled edges… But ratchet wheel screw and crown wheel screw will be telltales to start with then. Thank you!


Yes, the last few years of Soviet production the bridges were unstamped and straight edged but still had the three slot crown wheel screw...

The ratchet wheel and screw on these evolved over time, first a small screw that should be flush to the top of the ratchet wheel, then a small screw with a big countersink around 1989-90, then no countersink on the ratchet wheel but with a dimple underneath and a large screw head...

These movement rules often don't apply to civilian watches or cadets etc...just Komandirskie and Amphibia...If in doubt just ask


----------



## Odessa200

randocheapwatchperson said:


> I usually don't mind frankens as much given the low prices I buy watches at, but these two were a little bit more than what I'm accustomed to paying so I was wondering (and hoping) if they would fare better.
> 
> The crystal on the copernicus worries me.
> 
> View attachment 16162238
> View attachment 16162239
> View attachment 16162240
> View attachment 16162241
> View attachment 16162242
> 
> View attachment 16162264
> 
> View attachment 16162265
> 
> View attachment 16162266
> 
> 
> the difference in print quality between the splotchy blacks and not-so-splotchy reds on this peterhof big zero, perhaps just age and different paints holding up differently instead of some dial trickery?
> 
> View attachment 16162243
> View attachment 16162244
> View attachment 16162245
> 
> View attachment 16162268
> View attachment 16162270
> 
> View attachment 16162271
> 
> 
> It would still be fine if they weren't but it would be nice if they were 'authentic', so did I have any luck?


The Big Zero looks like an authentic but ‘quality reject’. There are a few sellers on ebay who bought rejected dials (dials that were badly printed) and sell watches built with these dials. Up to you if you like such low quality prints.


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> A few tips for 2409A and 2414A...
> 
> Serial number on mainplate under balance means it was made December 1984 and earlier
> 
> Bevelled edges on movement until approx.1987 then straight edges
> 
> SU and calibre mark on wheel train bridge until 1988 / 1989 then no stampings
> 
> Large head ratchet wheel screw in 1991 (not countersunk) with a little dimple on the underside of the ratchet wheel
> 
> No three slot crown wheel screw after the end of 1992
> 
> White metal anti-shock springs and also white metal second hand pinion leaf spring from 1995
> 
> Also many more such as changes in calendar font every five years etc...


And for the date font on 2414, do these photos (wich I snatched online) show the first and second ”generations”?:


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> And for the date font on 2414, do these photos (wich I snatched online) show the first and second ”generations”?:
> View attachment 16162828
> View attachment 16162829


The first ring is Soviet but used until around 1994, look at the very angular "2"'s...

Second one is post-Soviet used from approx.1994-1999, look at the "top heavy" number "2"'s that are more rounded...

I always look at the 2's on the calendar ring just because there are so many of them, but other numbers are different too such as the "7"...


----------



## randocheapwatchperson

Ligavesh said:


> The glass on the Copernicus has been replaced, should have straight angular edges.
> 
> The Big Zero I'm no expert but I would expect differences in paint from the red and black.





Odessa200 said:


> The Big Zero looks like an authentic but ‘quality reject’. There are a few sellers on ebay who bought rejected dials (dials that were badly printed) and sell watches built with these dials. Up to you if you like such low quality prints.


Plenty thanks for weighing in, I'll gladly take one hit and one miss over two misses. Either way I will enjoy them for what they are, functional and affordable if rather flawed pieces.


----------



## tranzchina

Hi all, 
I would really appreciate any input you have about what manufacturer and model this is, I can't read it. I also don't remember having seen this dial before anywhere.















Thanks in advance for any advice you can give..


----------



## Chascomm

tranzchina said:


> Hi all,
> I would really appreciate any input you have about what manufacturer and model this is, I can't read it. I also don't remember having seen this dial before anywhere.
> View attachment 16164320
> View attachment 16164321
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice you can give..


This is a ZIM (written in Roman alphabet on the dial and Cyrillic on the movement). The movement is a 2602 (also written on the movement under the balance). 'ZIM' is an acronym for 'Zavod imeni Maslennikova' (litterally 'factory named in honour of Maslennikov'). ZIM later switched to the Pobeda brand for all their watch products. I'm no expert, but everything looks right to me on this watch.


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Hi all,
> I would really appreciate any input you have about what manufacturer and model this is, I can't read it. I also don't remember having seen this dial before anywhere.
> View attachment 16164320
> View attachment 16164321
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice you can give..


Zim from the 80s. All is good.


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a pretty nice looking Stolichnie. I don't know all the details on these, am I missing something on this? Many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's a pretty nice looking Stolichnie. I don't know all the details on these, am I missing something on this? Many thanks!


all is correct.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> all is correct.


 Thanks as always. Any idea what the engraving might refer to? It's pretty cryptic but maybe given your lived cultural understanding I was wondering if you had a guess.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks as always. Any idea what the engraving might refer to? It's pretty cryptic but maybe given your lived cultural understanding I was wondering if you had a guess.


11/17/1966.

the letter ‘r’ used for year suggest non-russian. Maybe Ukrainian (rock is year in Ukranian) maybe some other slavic language.
Not sure what this date is.


----------



## SeekingPobeda

New to the world of Soviet watches and looking to pick up a Pobeda... Does this one seem to check out? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> New to the world of Soviet watches and looking to pick up a Pobeda... Does this one seem to check out? Thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16167990
> View attachment 16167991


Welcome comrade.
Pobeda 45-k.
balance replaced. The rest seems to be right but the pics are quite bad. Hard to see.
note: it will be radioactive. This is a radium lume.


----------



## SeekingPobeda

I'm also curious about this one, sorry for the double post - It looks almost too clean to be 50s? But that may just be a good restoration.


----------



## SeekingPobeda

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome comrade.
> Pobeda 45-k.
> balance replaced. The teat seems to be right but the pics are quite bad. Hard to see.
> note: it will be radioactive. This is a radium lume.
> View attachment 16168035


Comrade! Thank you! Really appreciate the expertise.

EDIT: These pictures may be higher quality.


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> I'm also curious about this one, sorry for the double post - It looks almost too clean to be 50s? But that may just be a good restoration.
> View attachment 16168041
> View attachment 16168042


Good pobeda by 2nd mchz. 60s. Not 50s. Looks good.


----------



## palletwheel

SeekingPobeda said:


> I'm also curious about this one, sorry for the double post - It looks almost too clean to be 50s? But that may just be a good restoration.
> View attachment 16168041
> View attachment 16168042


This one is tough. Dial and movement logo match post 1958 factory name change to 2nd Moscow Watch Factory. The hands could be right, they are similar to but not the same as this known early version:





__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





Very hard to tell about the crown. Issue is there's no comprehensive catalog of all these Pobedas so you're on experimental territory when it can't be found in a recognized accepted collection. If it's not expensive buy it, I'm sure that inscription tells an interesting story and it's probably worth it just for that.

Edit: The master has spoken right before I posted


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> 11/17/1966.
> 
> the letter ‘r’ used for year suggest non-russian. Maybe Ukrainian (rock is year in Ukranian) maybe some other slavic language.
> Not sure what this date is.


The date is post 64 so someone had it engraved at least two years after these were no longer sold, meaning someone owned it for some time and then commemorated something. I'm not sure about practice, but its curious to see the use of 3 numerical conventions in one line, Arabic, Roman, Slavic. It's always interesting to see how deeply personal statements get expressed on these watches, you really feel the life in them. Thanks for the translation.


----------



## SeekingPobeda

Odessa200 said:


> Good pobeda by 2nd mchz. 60s. Not 50s. Looks good.





palletwheel said:


> This one is tough. Dial and movement logo match post 1958 factory name change to 2nd Moscow Watch Factory. The hands could be right, they are similar to but not the same as this known early version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very hard to tell about the crown. Issue is there's no comprehensive catalog of all these Pobedas so you're on experimental territory when it can't be found in a recognized accepted collection. If it's not expensive buy it, I'm sure that inscription tells an interesting story and it's probably worth it just for that.
> 
> Edit: The master has spoken right before I posted


Thank you both! I went with the second one. The inscription reads(roughly): "To O.P. Zinevich for his faithful/conscientious work in the USSR General Directorate for State Secrets in the Press(Abbreviated, of course)". Just what I was after.

My best to both of you! Excited to learn my way around.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> The date is post 64 so someone had it engraved at least two years after these were no longer sold, meaning someone owned it for some time and then commemorated something. I'm not sure about practice, but its curious to see the use of 3 numerical conventions in one line, Arabic, Roman, Slavic. It's always interesting to see how deeply personal statements get expressed on these watches, you really feel the life in them. Thanks for the translation.


so true. In many cases we are just guessing based on other watches we saw.


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> Thank you both! I went with the second one. The inscription reads(roughly): "To O.P. Zinevich for his faithful/conscientious work in the USSR General Directorate for State Secrets in the Press(Abbreviated, of course)". Just what I was after.
> 
> My best to both of you! Excited to learn my way around.


Very interesting inscription! See if you can find anything about the guy.


----------



## palletwheel

SeekingPobeda said:


> Thank you both! I went with the second one. The inscription reads(roughly): "To O.P. Zinevich for his faithful/conscientious work in the USSR General Directorate for State Secrets in the Press(Abbreviated, of course)". Just what I was after.
> 
> My best to both of you! Excited to learn my way around.


I definately made an understatement when I said it had a story to tell. Congratulations, what a wonderful thought provoking historical find. A great way to start your collection.


----------



## palletwheel

I miraculously found this Raketa 2209, but I will always look a (Soviet) gift horse in the mouth. Actually the mouth looks pretty good, my only real question is if the crown is ok. I'd appreciate too if someone could give me an idea of what this is worth. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I miraculously found this Raketa 2209, but I will always look a (Soviet) gift horse in the mouth. Actually the mouth looks pretty good, my only real question is if the crown is ok. I'd appreciate too if someone could give me an idea of what this is worth. Thanks!


As far as I can see the crown is right. Here is one of mine (new one) and another watch with integrated bracelet that I was looking at. As you can see both have same crown.


----------



## nezaDK

Greetings experts

I've decided to treat my self with something "nice" and have fallen love with late 50s to early 60s russian watches.
What's the panels verdict on something like this?


























From my own research this piece seems about right other than the back. Also, is there a timeline/ruleofthumb regarding when dials stopped being made with radio active lume?
How dangerous is it and what's a guestimate on getting a dial re-Lumed in EU?

-peace out! Stay awesome!


----------



## palletwheel

It's a little hard to tell from your photos but I think you crown may be right, here's the reference:





__





Mayak | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Mark, Mayak, Lighthouse, Маяк, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





But I believe your caseback is incorrect.


----------



## nezaDK

palletwheel said:


> It's a little hard to tell from your photos but I think you crown may be right, here's the reference:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayak | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Mark, Mayak, Lighthouse, Маяк, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I believe your caseback is incorrect.


 Thank you, I did mean the back, my scatter brain was looking at a obvious Franken when I wrote it 😆 
I've used mroatman's collection as ref for movement age, dials and hands.
is there any resources on how the back of these vintage watches should look like?


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello comrades,

Can you give me your advice on this Red 12? Is it missing a screw? The case back looks funny to me, but I can't find a reference.

Thanks so much!























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## palletwheel

nezaDK said:


> Thank you, I did mean the back, my scatter brain was looking at a obvious Franken when I wrote it 😆
> I've used mroatman's collection as ref for movement age, dials and hands.
> is there any resources on how the back of these vintage watches should look like?


Not as far as I know, but if someone does would love to hear. Usually these watches from the 50s have a plain caseback. There could be some exceptions, but I can't think of any. @Odessa200 would be able to say best if there are.


----------



## Odessa200

nezaDK said:


> Greetings experts
> 
> I've decided to treat my self with something "nice" and have fallen love with late 50s to early 60s russian watches.
> What's the panels verdict on something like this?
> View attachment 16169971
> View attachment 16169839
> View attachment 16169841
> View attachment 16169844
> 
> From my own research this piece seems about right other than the back. Also, is there a timeline/ruleofthumb regarding when dials stopped being made with radio active lume?
> How dangerous is it and what's a guestimate on getting a dial re-Lumed in EU?
> 
> -peace out! Stay awesome!


This is all correct Mayak by 1MChZ. (It was also made by PChZ). I maybe radioactive but no way to tell w/o actually measuring with the Geiger counter. 
I would advise against re-lume. To do this old dial nicely will be expensive (with the new dials it is easier to wash away old lume and add new but this one will be a challenge). It is not that dangerous to use the watch even if it is radioactive. If you do not intend to open it up (and get exposed to the radioactive dust) you can safely wear the watch. The radiation is very weak and only detected right next to the crystal. It is NOT detected on the back of the watch bucease the movement and the back shield from it. Just do not put the watch under your pillow


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello comrades,
> 
> Can you give me your advice on this Red 12? Is it missing a screw? The case back looks funny to me, but I can't find a reference.
> 
> Thanks so much!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Yes, it is missing a screw. You are in USA so I can mail you one for free. You will need a tiny screw driver to put it in. The back is fine. The dial is by Zim and this matches the movement. nice watch.


----------



## nezaDK

Odessa200 said:


> This is all correct Mayak by 1MChZ. (It was also made by PChZ). I maybe radioactive but no way to tell w/o actually measuring with the Geiger counter.
> I would advise against re-lume. To do this old dial nicely will be expensive (with the new dials it is easier to wash away old lume and add new but this one will be a challenge). It is not that dangerous to use the watch even if it is radioactive. If you do not intend to open it up (and get exposed to the radioactive dust) you can safely wear the watch. The radiation is very weak and only detected right next to the crystal. It is NOT detected on the back of the watch bucease the movement and the back shield from it. Just do not put the watch under your pillow


nice! im looking at a couple different pieces and was a bit worried about the lumes, i do intend on opening at least one of them up to umm "learn" how to service movements. might look for one of later date or gloves and mask it is! 

is there any specific shapes to the blank backs on these kinds of watches or any source to ballpark it?


----------



## Odessa200

nezaDK said:


> nice! im looking at a couple different pieces and was a bit worried about the lumes, i do intend on opening at least one of them up to umm "learn" how to service movements. might look for one of later date or gloves and mask it is!
> 
> is there any specific shapes to the blank backs on these kinds of watches or any source to ballpark it?


why do you want a blank back? All Mayaks I saw have the back you have. No need to change it.


look:









Mayak 1mchz 2603 Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch Men's USSR for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mayak 1mchz 2603 Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch Men's USSR at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com














Men's vintage soviet mechanical wrist watch Mayak Majak, USSR, 3q-1957 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Men's vintage soviet mechanical wrist watch Mayak Majak, USSR, 3q-1957 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com




If you are afraid of radioactive lume: look for watches w/o lume or watched made after 1960.
These Mayaks were made before and after hence hard to guess. People use lume color as a guide (brown is radioactive and green is not) but I have a few greens that are radioactive. So it is not that reliable. If you consider buying many old watches, get the Geiger counter. It is not that expensive and I use it a lot.


----------



## nezaDK

Odessa200 said:


> why do you want a blank back? All Mayaks I saw have the back you have. No need to change it.
> 
> 
> look:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mayak 1mchz 2603 Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch Men's USSR for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mayak 1mchz 2603 Vintage Soviet Russian Mechanical Wristwatch Men's USSR at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men's vintage soviet mechanical wrist watch Mayak Majak, USSR, 3q-1957 | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Men's vintage soviet mechanical wrist watch Mayak Majak, USSR, 3q-1957 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are afraid of radioactive lume: look for watches w/o lume or watched made after 1960.
> These Mayaks were made before and after hence hard to guess. People use lume color as a guide (brown is radioactive and green is not) but I have a few greens that are radioactive. So it is not that reliable. If you consider buying many old watches, get the Geiger counter. It is not that expensive and I use it a lot.


The blank backs was in regards to other brands (moskov, vostok, lenningrad, neva etc) i was looking at.

Think i read somewhere in here that alot of the different brands came without any markings on the back. it seems really hard to find "validated" pictures of case backs so was more of a "are all these brands supposed to have something on the back or not" thing 

also big thank you for the help and info 🤘

i plan to not buy too many watches 😁 im sure i can find a geiger counter somewhere to run over them.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, it is missing a screw. You are in USA so I can mail you one for free. You will need a tiny screw driver to put it in. The back is fine. The dial is by Zim and this matches the movement. nice watch.


Thanks Odessa that would be wonderful! I'll happily pay for postage if you would like. Look for a PM for my mailing address. A couple of additional questions. You said the dial is by zim and matches the movement. On the dial is says Pobeda, was ZIM just the manufacturer and they used the Pobeda "brand"? Secondly, the case looks a little beat up, are these cases traditionally chromed brass?

Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thanks Odessa that would be wonderful! I'll happily pay for postage if you would like. Look for a PM for my mailing address. A couple of additional questions. You said the dial is by zim and matches the movement. On the dial is says Pobeda, was ZIM just the manufacturer and they used the Pobeda "brand"? Secondly, the case looks a little beat up, are these cases traditionally chromed brass?
> 
> Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Welcome to the Soviet watchmaking. Pobeda watches were made by almost all Soviet factories . Podeba is a brand. Zim is a factory and sometimes a brand. In USSR was no copyright restrictions between factories. All state owned and produced watches as per plan. The Red 12 dials made by different factories are slightly different. Frequently you would get a mismatch but in your case it is all right.

Some watches, especially produced before 1955 or so would normally have clear back but not all. You need to look into specific model. If in doubt ask here we we will spot check it.

the cases for 99% of soviet watches are chromed (or gilded) brass. There are a few stainless steel but not that many


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Poljot:



















Hands are different than those at MrOatman's site.

PS. Though who's to say Mroatman always has the correct hands? Same model in a gilded case has the same hands as these...


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 16171360
> 
> 
> View attachment 16171361
> 
> 
> Hands are different than those at MrOatman's site.
> 
> PS. Though who's to say Mroatman always has the correct hands? Same model in a gilded case has the same hands as these...


Hard one. I would say ‘highly possible’ correct watch.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Hard one. I would say ‘highly possible’ correct watch.


Yep, couldn't find it in the catalogues either - but due to the circumstances and how the rest of the watch is preserved I would tend towards 'probably correct'.

PS. Btw, the add describes it as a 'ladies watch'


----------



## mariomart

Hello, could someone please provide a translation to English of what is written on this case back?


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> Hello, could someone please provide a translation to English of what is written on this case back?
> 
> View attachment 16172084


Roughly "Engineers are very necessary" a quote from Peter the Great in 1716 and a caseback only found on this Type 52 auto-Komandirskie from 1994...


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> Roughly "Engineers are very necessary" a quote from Peter the Great in 1716 and a caseback only found on this Type 52 auto-Komandirskie from 1994...
> 
> View attachment 16172158


Thank you.

Unfortunately it seems that the dial and bezel were swapped out, but the case is correct.


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Unfortunately it seems that the dial and bezel were swapped out, but the case is correct.
> 
> View attachment 16172169


That's a shame, it's a nice dial though  

I remember this caseback was discussed on this old thread here


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> That's a shame, it's a nice dial though
> 
> I remember this caseback was discussed on this old thread here


Thanks, interesting .... now I need to de-franken it ..... (starts poring over thousands of eBay and Etsy listings from now until eternity 🤣 )


----------



## Avidfan

mariomart said:


> Thanks, interesting .... now I need to de-franken it ..... (starts poring over thousands of eBay and Etsy listings from now until eternity 🤣 )


I would put the dial in a Titan case but I think you've got a couple of those already


----------



## mariomart

Avidfan said:


> I would put the dial in a Titan case but I think you've got a couple of those already


Already have this dial in a Titan, and sold another last week.


----------



## jimzilla

I would like to ask if this one appears to be authentic?

Raketa baltika 21 jewels | Etsy

sorry no movement shot.


----------



## miroman

There is a picture of the movement - the second one. 
Even if it's all legit (as I think it is), are you really ready to pay this price?



jimzilla said:


> I would like to ask if this one appears to be authentic?
> 
> Raketa baltika 21 jewels | Etsy
> 
> sorry no movement shot.


----------



## Jerome F

schnurrp said:


> Nice one. Looks good to me. Beautiful condition.
> 
> From '77 catalog:
> 
> View attachment 14249269
> 
> 
> That inner dial color is probably the most common one I've seen.


----------



## Jerome F

Hi ALL my first ever post here - be gentle. I have already found it amazing as been slavishly looking through the posts about Frankenwatches and basically now EVERYTHING on Ebay looks iffy. I am like - oooh they have a lot of soviet era watches so must be dodgy but on other hand they were making 5m a year at one point so maybe not. ANd every seller even the confirmed Frankenwatch people from these forums have 99.99% positive ratings! So I thought to defer to those with good knowledge of the era - does this look legit- like it does look old around date function so maybe not a redial? Vintage Slava Mechanical Russian Soviet Watch Rare USSR Часы | eBay
Thanks
John.


----------



## Odessa200

Jerome F said:


> Hi ALL my first ever post here - be gentle. I have already found it amazing as been slavishly looking through the posts about Frankenwatches and basically now EVERYTHING on Ebay looks iffy. I am like - oooh they have a lot of soviet era watches so must be dodgy but on other hand they were making 5m a year at one point so maybe not. ANd every seller even the confirmed Frankenwatch people from these forums have 99.99% positive ratings! So I thought to defer to those with good knowledge of the era - does this look legit- like it does look old around date function so maybe not a redial? Vintage Slava Mechanical Russian Soviet Watch Rare USSR Часы | eBay
> Thanks
> John.


Welcome! Let me post 2 photos (one is a post soviet funky case and other is a soviet slava). Got the issue?


Also the mismatch between calendar language and the dial. A proper franken!


----------



## cookiemonster94

Looking at this central second Pobeda.
Looks good to me, but a 2nd opinion wouldnt hurt.


----------



## Jerome F

Hahah thanks @Odessa200 - so on my first one highlighted... proper Franken! I should have seen this one with the English made in and and then Russian days, I would never have known the case so that was a really good spot. Is there a forum with a good list of non Franken Ebay vendors over there (Russia, Belarus, etc) that people have found really legit? Because the Franken list would be too long to go into it seems!


----------



## Odessa200

Jerome F said:


> Hahah thanks @Odessa200 - so on my first one highlighted... proper Franken! I should have seen this one with the English made in and and then Russian days, I would never have known the case so that was a really good spot. Is there a forum with a good list of non Franken Ebay vendors over there (Russia, Belarus, etc) that people have found really legit? Because the Franken list would be too long to go into it seems!


there was a thread on this forum that listed good sellers. Try finding it.


----------



## Odessa200

cookiemonster94 said:


> Looking at this central second Pobeda.
> Looks good to me, but a 2nd opinion wouldnt hurt.
> View attachment 16172726
> View attachment 16172727


Good one. Aside from replaced ratchet wheel (it is from ChChz as far as I see) the rest looks nice.


----------



## jimzilla

miroman said:


> There is a picture of the movement - the second one.
> Even if it's all legit (as I think it is), are you really ready to pay this price?


I know what you mean, for that kind of money it should be a full set, thanks for your input.


----------



## 979greenwich

Does it make any sense to find a beveled 2209 movement in the red "Botchka"?


I would usually say no, but it's not the first time I see this type of movement with this dial.


----------



## palletwheel

Could someone please opine on this Komandirskie? Many thanks.


----------



## 979greenwich

palletwheel said:


> Could someone please opine on this Komandirskie? Many thanks.


Balance was probably replaced (flat vs. the beveled bridges). Otherwise looks ok.


----------



## palletwheel

979greenwich said:


> Balance was probably replaced (flat vs. the beveled bridges). Otherwise looks ok.


Given its in a 1976 catalog and 1976 and prior 2234 movements had balances with poising screws and ratchet wheels with stars I'm wondering if the whole movement was swapped out for a later one. Or this was made later when the movement changed over the following year to the flat bridges and dynamically poised balance. I guess the question may turn out to be if these were made post 1976.


----------



## 979greenwich

I don't think Breguet-type balance would be correct for this watch, regardless of this catalogue picture.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> I don't think Breguet-type balance would be correct for this watch, regardless of this catalogue picture.


Here is mine.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Here is mine.
> View attachment 16175533
> View attachment 16175535
> View attachment 16175536


But then based on the discussion here:









Second Generation Christopol Komandirskie (CA 1960s)...


P.S. I am looking for one of those burgundy commemorative dials, but specifically in the round gold case, if I can find one. I think Ralf (Doledolf) has one...




www.watchuseek.com





it would appear the movement in your watch has the wrong ratchet wheel. From 1977 and after the movement in my posting would be consistent, but I'm not completely sure right for the watch. Do you know around how long these were made?


----------



## 979greenwich

I've checked the four broken ones I have in a joblot, two have a balance with studs and two without. Same goes for the Ebay listings I've quickly browsed, so I suppose they are both correct. The watch was probably made at the time when they stopped producing the studded balance version.


----------



## palletwheel

979greenwich said:


> I've checked the four broken ones I have in a joblot, two have a balance with studs and two without. Same goes for the Ebay listings I've quickly browsed, so I suppose they are both correct. The watch was probably made at the time when they stopped producing the studded balance version.


This is helpful as based on the posting I listed above it seems 1977 is some transition point for these movements. It was just a question as to whether the watch was made after 1976 and followed that transition, but it would appear to be so, assuming what you found wasn't Frankened.

One thing I'd also like to understand is what was the social point of this watch. There's no way I can imagine any army would equip their soldiers to go out in the field wearing camouflage and a bright red gold plated watch. Soldiers weren't rich, so its hard for me to think that people bought this for fun and then another for the field, although I guess that could be. What were the real field watches of the USSR and what role did watches like this play?


----------



## 979greenwich

Early Komandirskies were the real field watches of the time, developed for that purpose, and sold in military stores. The fact that today they look like dress watches has more to do with fashion.
Combat uniforms also weren't camouflage like today, but olive green.


----------



## Odessa200

Yea, this is what I call: Parade watch. Not a field version.

as far as wrong ratchet wheel on mine: of course it is possible. This wheel rarely breaks and given the rest of the watch is pretty intact why would someone replace it? But who knows. Giver I have a replacement I will switch it today.

For the balance my take: both versions are right. They were made during transition from older movement to a new one and some have newer elements. Look at this spare movement I have. I doubt someone would franken a scrap movement…


----------



## SeekingPobeda

Does this all appear to check out?


----------



## RobNJ

SeekingPobeda said:


> Does this all appear to check out?
> View attachment 16177846
> View attachment 16177849


I'd wait for the experts, but regrettably, I think it is "too good." Pobedas were always, to my knowledge, mounted with15 jewel non-shock protected movements. Someone has replaced that movement (from a strictly horological point of view, upgraded it) with a 16 jewel, shock-protected, Raketa 2603. I'm not sure about the caseback.

It _is_ a nice dial, and the hands are plausible to me at least based on catalog examples.


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> Does this all appear to check out?
> View attachment 16177846
> View attachment 16177849


All is good except the movement. This Pobeda supposed to have shockproof 2603 but by 1MChZ. Not Raketa.
This is a Chernushka 34-k. There is a topic on this forum about these watches.


----------



## SeekingPobeda

Thank you both! I'll keep looking.



Odessa200 said:


> All is good except the movement. This Pobeda supposed to have shockproof 2603 but by 1MChZ. Not Raketa.
> This is a Chernushka 34-k. There is a topic on this forum about these watches.


That's exactly what I'm after with this one. Have found a couple others out there, but all just a _little_ off.


----------



## Supdany

Hello, I just bought this Sportivnie runner, it is dated 1st quarter of 1957.
As the watch is in very good condition for its age, I am looking for expertise regarding the authenticity of the watch.
According to the ebay seller, it is 100% authentic, but now that I have the watch in hand, I am not sure.


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> Hello, I just bought this Sportivnie runner, it is dated 1st quarter of 1957.
> As the watch is in very good condition for its age, I am looking for expertise regarding the authenticity of the watch.
> According to the ebay seller, it is 100% authentic, but now that I have the watch in hand, I am not sure.


Looks quite nice and correct! What makes you think it is not authentic?


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> Thank you both! I'll keep looking.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly what I'm after with this one. Have found a couple others out there, but all just a _little_ off.


Yes, this is a common thing with old Pobedas. It is easier to find any watch (even the most rare one) than a fully authentic and correct Pobeda. They went via so many hands and repairs…


----------



## Supdany

I have now spend hours looking at vintage watch photos, and when I have my Sportivnie in hands it does not look like a 60 years old. But the movment seems to be correct: correct stanps, 17 jewels, chock proof, hacking. But the case, crown, hand, dial are in very good condition. So either I bought a very good exemple or some parts have been reproduced.


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> I have now spend hours looking at vintage watch photos, and when I have my Sportivnie in hands it does not look like a 60 years old. But the movment seems to be correct: correct stanps, 17 jewels, chock proof, hacking. But the case, crown, hand, dial are in very good condition. So either I bought a very good exemple or some parts have been reproduced.


take a few good quality close up photos and upload here. But based on what I see it is all right.


----------



## watch22

Supdany said:


> I have now spend hours looking at vintage watch photos, and when I have my Sportivnie in hands it does not look like a 60 years old. But the movment seems to be correct: correct stanps, 17 jewels, chock proof, hacking. But the case, crown, hand, dial are in very good condition. So either I bought a very good exemple or some parts have been reproduced.


My concern is that typically Soviet watch models each had their own niche. The Sportivnie were meant for timing sports.

So they should have a more finely calibrated scale on the














dial and should hack - as far as I know. Does yours hack?

Here's one of my three.

Everything I wrote may be wrong


----------



## Supdany

watch22 said:


> My concern is that typically Soviet watch models each had their own niche. The Sportivnie were meant for timing sports.
> 
> So they should have a more finely calibrated scale on the
> View attachment 16180640
> View attachment 16180641
> dial and should hack - as far as I know. Does yours hack?
> 
> Here's one of my three.
> 
> Everything I wrote may be wrong


The dial is correct like it should be, I have checked on this site: Sportivnie | Watches of the USSR (wixsite.com)
Yes it hack, it just that it looks too new. For example the crown on your what looks like it has been used, mine looks like new. It is more a feeling that some parts are not from the fifties.


----------



## watch22

Supdany said:


> The dial is correct like it should be, I have checked on this site: Sportivnie | Watches of the USSR (wixsite.com)
> Yes it hack, it just that it looks too new. For example the crown on your what looks like it has been used, mine looks like new. It is more a feeling that some parts are not from the fifties.


I have another that's older than yours - 4-56. There's no answer to the question - did I get lucky or scammed? I always go for Lucky.


----------



## Odessa200

watch22 said:


> I have another that's older than yours - 4-56. There's no answer to the question - did I get lucky or scammed? I always go for Lucky.
> 
> View attachment 16181203
> View attachment 16181204


Great watch. Yea, looks new but the quality is superb. I would say it is real.


----------



## watch22

Odessa200 said:


> Great watch. Yea, looks new but the quality is superb. I would say it is real.


Thanks. You know Soviet watch so that means a lot.

How about my lume Sportivinie? This is one of the favorites in my collection.

There were many variations of the Sportivnine brand. Inner or outer seconds indexes. 15 and 17 jewel. But they all had in common the ideal of timing sports.


----------



## Ligavesh

watch22 said:


> Thanks. You know Soviet watch so that means a lot.
> 
> How about my lume Sportivinie? This is one of the favorites in my collection.
> 
> There were many variations of the Sportivnine brand. Inner or outer seconds indexes. 15 and 17 jewel. But they all had in common the ideal of timing sports.
> 
> View attachment 16181608
> View attachment 16181609


looks nicer than mine


----------



## SeekingPobeda

Another one.. Putting a lot of trust here leaving these watermarks in.  Or maybe not, it's a bit of a pricetag... Oh well. This all look okay?


----------



## watch22

Ligavesh said:


> looks nicer than mine


Thanks. I bought this many years ago from a UK seller. He charged me a lot. But then he shipped 2 additional watches for free


----------



## watch22

SeekingPobeda said:


> Another one.. Putting a lot of trust here leaving these watermarks in.  Or maybe not, it's a bit of a pricetag... Oh well. This all look okay?


I'm not a Pobeda expert but they look OK to me. The Pobeda was made in several different factories so I never know what to look for.

The early ones are really small so they make a good watch for someone with a small wrist. Attach a fun strap.


----------



## Odessa200

watch22 said:


> Thanks. You know Soviet watch so that means a lot.
> 
> How about my lume Sportivinie? This is one of the favorites in my collection.
> 
> There were many variations of the Sportivnine brand. Inner or outer seconds indexes. 15 and 17 jewel. But they all had in common the ideal of timing sports.
> 
> View attachment 16181608
> View attachment 16181609


Fantastic! Now I know who got all the good Sportivnie!


----------



## Odessa200

SeekingPobeda said:


> Another one.. Putting a lot of trust here leaving these watermarks in.  Or maybe not, it's a bit of a pricetag... Oh well. This all look okay?
> 
> View attachment 16181682
> View attachment 16181683


This looks right except you did not show the back cover. But it looks right. Mostly I have seen this model from 1954 but probably 1953 is also possible.


----------



## randocheapwatchperson

Seems a little fishy, the bezel and case don't look like they belong together, at least not when one is plated and the other is not. Anyone know if it's even remotely close?


----------



## Avidfan

randocheapwatchperson said:


> Seems a little fishy, the bezel and case don't look like they belong together, at least not when one is plated and the other is not. Anyone know if it's even remotely close?
> 
> View attachment 16183817
> View attachment 16183818
> View attachment 16183819
> View attachment 16183821


Yes the bezel and the case look like they don't belong together, but they do! 

These 1945-1995 Pobeda bezels were only made in chromed brass and were put on both chrome cases and those with a titanium nitride (golden) finish, in this instance a Type 64 Komandirskie case...


----------



## randocheapwatchperson

Avidfan said:


> Yes the bezel and the case look like they don't belong together, but they do!
> 
> These 1945-1995 Pobeda bezels were only made in chromed brass and were put on both chrome cases and those with a titanium nitride (golden) finish, in this instance a Type 64 Komandirskie case...


Thanks, I guess the 90s were a funky time for many


----------



## jimzilla

Had this come in today and would like to know if it is authentic. Is the bracelet original
watch as well,
I don't think it is but it does not hurt to ask, thanks so much








to the


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

jimzilla said:


> Had this come in today and would like to know if it is authentic. Is the bracelet original
> watch as well,
> I don't think it is but it does not hurt to ask, thanks so much
> 
> View attachment 16186404
> to the


Wish I could be of help re the authenticity of your Rezonator Sir Jim - but egad what a beauty!!!!!


----------



## steros

Is this a real ussr era thing? Komandirskie chronograph? (pic from FB group, not fo sale)


----------



## 979greenwich

Yes, a Vostok-Poljot collaboration for the Italian market, just before the fall of the USSR. 3133 movement inside.


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

With attempted straight face asks could this be Frankenstein’s son’s watch ……








What a rare beauty! ;-)


----------



## 979greenwich

Excellent marker pen skills.


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

979greenwich said:


> Excellent marker pen skills.


Looks like the artist started to get a little confused when they got to 10 and decided a rotation might be better for the 11 & 12 ;-)


----------



## RobNJ

I'm wondering if I can ask for opinions on this one.










I can't find this specific model in a catalog, but it seems a red dial variant of Zaria #s 653333 (white dial) and 653334 (gold dial/black indices and hands) from the 1977 catalog (pp. 64-65), on Watches of the USSR, etc. Export version, of course.

Caseback is unremarkable:










The movement photo reveals a 2009B, as expected:











But here I do have questions. Is that the correct era movement for a mid-70s to early 80s watch? Others I've seen have had the keystone-shaped Zaria factory mark, but those were Russian text. That this is English dial/English movement text is good, I suppose. Second, there is no interior (antimagnetic?) case shown with this one as there is with some Zarias, including other 653xxx models. Elsewhere on Ebay, the interior case is a sometimes thing, but is that just because it is frequently misplaced?

What do you all think?


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> I'm wondering if I can ask for opinions on this one.
> 
> View attachment 16189853
> 
> 
> I can't find this specific model in a catalog, but it seems a red dial variant of Zaria #s 653333 (white dial) and 653334 (gold dial/black indices and hands) from the 1977 catalog (pp. 64-65), on Watches of the USSR, etc. Export version, of course.
> 
> Caseback is unremarkable:
> 
> View attachment 16189894
> 
> 
> The movement photo reveals a 2009B, as expected:
> 
> View attachment 16189898
> 
> 
> 
> But here I do have questions. Is that the correct era movement for a mid-70s to early 80s watch? Others I've seen have had the keystone-shaped Zaria factory mark, but those were Russian text. That this is English dial/English movement text is good, I suppose. Second, there is no interior (antimagnetic?) case shown with this one as there is with some Zarias, including other 653xxx models. Elsewhere on Ebay, the interior case is a sometimes thing, but is that just because it is frequently misplaced?
> 
> What do you all think?


I think all is in order


----------



## Eldrian

Hello WUS ! I've been stalking you for awhile but only now finally decided to post 
So i'm building up a small motley military watch collection which i will make a longer post about once it's a bit more consistent, but for now i've decided the next stop will be a "Kirova" Type 1, 1930s-1940s, ideally one that was actually worn and used during the war though i do realise there's no realistic way of knowing that. However, to tick that box too, am i wrong in assuming a serial number stamped on the dial would almost certainly indicate a military issued watch ?

Exhibit A :
















Seller claims the movement is 15 jewels, but the bridge plate says 7, strange. I read somewhere that the 7 jewels ones were seen as disposable watches, not expected to tell time very accurately for long, and given to low ranking field officers; after all this time they'd be so worn they'd be unusable. However, i also read the adjustments are really easy to do yourself... i really don't know about this.

Exhibit B:

















How can i tell, in one of these, without opening it up, if the movement is 7 or 15 jewels ? 

Exhibit C (beautiful imho):

















53mm with crown !!! This is almost B-Uhr territory 

Some more info from the seller/s : all have new mineral glass (i can live with that, i want to actually use the watch), straps will be replaced anyway, but really the dials are my main concern - i've heard of "inkjet printed dials" on some of these watches and i wouldn't like radium on the hands or dial either. The 3rd one is just amazing looking to me, even if it (probably) is a marriage watch. Ideally for me, it'd be the movement of the 3rd, dial of the 2nd and case+crown of the 1st.

Apologies for the looooong post, but the more i read on these watches, the more confused i get. Everybody's probably been through that  . Cheers !


----------



## mariomart

I'm sure @Odessa200 will supply the best information shortly, but in my opinion they are all "franken" watches, the first 2 have non matching balance cock (Geneve stripes missing) and all 3 watches have modern printed dials. Personally I would continue your search until a more genuine article surfaces. I must add that I am no expert in these models, I am just going off what I have observed over the years.


----------



## Odessa200

mariomart said:


> I'm sure @Odessa200 will supply the best information shortly, but in my opinion they are all "franken" watches, the first 2 have non matching balance cock (Geneve stripes missing) and all 3 watches have modern printed dials. Personally I would continue your search until a more genuine article surfaces. I must add that I am no expert in these models, I am just going off what I have observed over the years.


Agree. The biggest issue with all of these watches: fake dials. All of them. So unless you are Ok with a fake dial it does not make sense to go into details of the movements. Personally, I can tolerate slightly franked movements (these are very old watches that went via many repairs) but the dial must be original!


----------



## palletwheel

Anyone familiar with this piece? The dial is a little different from @mroatman variants, and not sure about the balance wheel. Did Petrodvorets use the same movement as 1MWF but just with their mark? Many thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Anyone familiar with this piece? The dial is a little different from @mroatman variants, and not sure about the balance wheel. Did Petrodvorets use the same movement as 1MWF but just with their mark? Many thanks.


All is right. Here is mine. They used 1MChZ balances at that time


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> All is right. Here is mine. They used 1MChZ balances at that time
> View attachment 16193785
> View attachment 16193786
> View attachment 16193787
> View attachment 16193788


What got me too was even the ratchetwheel looks 1MChZ. Many thanks as always, this is going to be another nice addition to the collection. With all your help, it's starting to shape up, deeply appreciated.


----------



## Foo1

How's this one look?


----------



## Odessa200

Foo1 said:


> How's this one look?
> 
> View attachment 16195779
> View attachment 16195781


The watch has old soviet movement and new case/dial. I am not sure if this is an original dial but the movement is replaced. Plus it is not a 24h movement (maybe it was modified to be 24h, ask the seller if it is indeed 24h). I would say this is a Franken.


----------



## Ligavesh

What to make of this Pobeda? Haven't managed to find it in the catalogs:










That "USSR" seems printed badly, going upwards - a new made dial?


----------



## steros

A fake ”cccp” dial on this Komandirskie? Or a genuine cccp era Amphibia dial, but on the wrong watch? The watch has an original soviet union 2414 movement. The hands are aIso the right type for that era I think.


----------



## MarioMendez98

Hello, lm really interested in getting some timepieces but I'm not totally convinced with the legitimacy of the timepiece, in fact, is a "kama" cal. 2603 researched a bit so far I've seen the watch on a
couple of collections, the dial looks the correct age. My question is it a Franken?

























side note: I've seen a couple of soviet mechanisms many of the web examples tend to have the ratchet wheel stamped with stars so is it normal to not have them?


----------



## Odessa200

MarioMendez98 said:


> Hello, lm really interested in getting some timepieces but I'm not totally convinced with the legitimacy of the timepiece, in fact, is a "kama" cal. 2603 researched a bit so far I've seen the watch on a
> couple of collections, the dial looks the correct age. My question is it a Franken?
> 
> View attachment 16197168
> 
> View attachment 16197164
> 
> View attachment 16197166
> 
> side note: I've seen a couple of soviet mechanisms many of the web examples tend to have the ratchet wheel stamped with stars so is it normal to not have them?


There were Kamas with snap on backs and non-shockproof (although they never appeared in catalogs) but this one looks a bit fishy. I would expect balance bridge to have more precise markings (not just + -). Also the ratchet wheel for sure wrong because it is flat and the winding wheel is with a beveled edge. Never ever a pair like this was released by a factory.


----------



## MarioMendez98

Odessa200 said:


> There were Kamas with snap on backs and non-shockproof (although they never appeared in catalogs) but this one looks a bit fishy. I would expect balance bridge to have more precise markings (not just + -). Also the ratchet wheel for sure wrong because it is flat and the winding wheel is with a beveled edge. Never ever a pair like this was released by a factory.


Thanks for the response. I'm new to the hobby of watch collecting would you recommend getting this watch even the evident disvantages? if so what's the price range you would pay?


----------



## steros

steros said:


> A fake ”cccp” dial on this Komandirskie? Or a genuine cccp era Amphibia dial, but on the wrong watch? The watch has an original soviet union 2414 movement. The hands are aIso the right type for that era I think.


And here is the pic…


----------



## 979greenwich

steros said:


> And here is the pic…
> View attachment 16198134


Reproduction dial and bezel.


----------



## Odessa200

MarioMendez98 said:


> Thanks for the response. I'm new to the hobby of watch collecting would you recommend getting this watch even the evident disvantages? if so what's the price range you would pay?


Kamas are not rare. I would pass on this is a get a more conventional one with the bayonet back that has ass the right parts. For this one I would not pay more than 25$. For a good all correct Kama up to 50-75$ depending on condition.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What to make of this Pobeda? Haven't managed to find it in the catalogs:
> 
> View attachment 16197070
> 
> 
> That "USSR" seems printed badly, going upwards - a new made dial?


Hard to tell but looks legit


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Hard to tell but looks legit


Thanks; the seller is a good guy, he has always sold legit pieces in a good condition - at least that's my impression from a year or so that I know about him.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Hard to tell but looks legit


 Do you know what era it's from? The typography of that dial is really creative and interesting.


----------



## palletwheel

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks; the seller is a good guy, he has always sold legit pieces in a good condition - at least that's my imlression from a year or so that I know about him.


Can you get a movement photo? I'm really curious about this one.


----------



## Ligavesh

palletwheel said:


> Can you get a movement photo? I'm really curious about this one.


I'll see if he can do that, I'll ask him, although this is one of those types of sellers who themselves are not watchmakers and he avoids manipulating the watches he sells as much as possible.

edit: all I have for now:


----------



## palletwheel

Ligavesh said:


> I'll see if he can do that, I'll ask him, although this is one of those types of sellers who themselves are not watchmakers and he avoids manipulating the watches he sells as much as possible.
> 
> edit: all I have for now:
> 
> View attachment 16200042
> 
> 
> View attachment 16200041


Thanks very much. As @Odessa200 says it sure looks right but I am very curious when it was made beyond being pretty sure it must be post 1964. Hopefully @Odessa200 can weigh in. It's a nice watch, enjoy!


----------



## Ligavesh

palletwheel said:


> Thanks very much. As @Odessa200 says it sure looks right but I am very curious when it was made beyond being pretty sure it must be post 1964. Hopefully @Odessa200 can weigh in. It's a nice watch, enjoy!


Thanks, but I don't have it yet, I'm bidding for it 😉


----------



## steros

A rare version of Komandirskie submarine dial? Add says the round thing represents sonar.


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> A rare version of Komandirskie submarine dial? Add says the round thing represents sonar.
> View attachment 16200441


I am skeptical. Looks like china to me.


----------



## palletwheel

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks, but I don't have it yet, I'm bidding for it 😉


Well, you don't have to worry about me competing, I'm way way overextended this month, I have 5 on order that I'm waiting on 🙄


----------



## Ligavesh

palletwheel said:


> Well, you don't have to worry about me competing, I'm way way overextended this month, I have 5 on order that I'm waiting on 🙄


I'm overextended and I'm still competing, you gotta push harder!


----------



## Chascomm

steros said:


> A rare version of Komandirskie submarine dial? Add says the round thing represents sonar.
> View attachment 16200441


'Rare' is a word with much nuance. This dial has the texture of a homemade print. Besides which, Vostok would never pair non-lumed stick hands with a lumed Komandirskie dial.


----------



## watch22

steros said:


> A rare version of Komandirskie submarine dial? Add says the round thing represents sonar.
> View attachment 16200441


I'm far from an expert but nothing looks right to me.

This is a desirable model and they are available at a reasonable cost. I suggest you pass on this and keep looking.

Here's mine that I'm pretty sure is good.

Keep looking and keep posting here for verification by knowledgeable folks


----------



## Supdany

Hi, I am looking to purchase a Pobeda RED 12 from late 40s to 50 or 51 but I have a question about the case.

As shown on the top watch the case has small holes on the opposite side of the crown. On the second watch, it does not have the small holes on any side. I there an explanation?


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> Hi, I am looking to purchase a Pobeda RED 12 from late 40s to 50 or 51 but I have a question about the case.
> 
> As shown on the top watch the case has small holes on the opposite side of the crown. On the second watch, it does not have the small holes on any side. I there an explanation?
> View attachment 16203863


old cases with fixed pins may have the ‘holes’ visible but normally they are covered under the chrome.

newer cases with removable pins will never have the holes. But you need to see if the watch movement is new enough to be in a new case. Most likely a new case was used to replaced a badly used old.


----------



## Dave098

Very happy with this Amphibia, but I'm not sure this case/face/bezel combo is one that Vostok would have offered. Anyone know?


----------



## Avidfan

Dave098 said:


> Very happy with this Amphibia, but I'm not sure this case/face/bezel combo is one that Vostok would have offered. Anyone know?
> 
> View attachment 16205304


The catalogue shows this dial in a 470 case (470292), your example looks to be in a 320 case and also has a modern set of Amphibia hands (note the short lume channel on the minute hand)...

Here's the 1990 catalogue image with the same bezel...










Notice the slight difference in the dial, maybe late production pieces had two lume spots at 12...


----------



## Ligavesh

Dial is legit, here's a picture from the Italian catalogue of old Vostoks:










Otherwise, what @Avidfan said about the case and hands... If you ever want to sell it, @Dave098 , give me a call (that is, write me a PM ).


----------



## cgrad

Hi, I'm new to WUS and wanted to share my first "interesting" Vostok, which I picked up because I liked the dial:





















My initial thought was that the dial and hands were taken from a dress watch, transplanted into a beat-up 431 case, with a weird third-party bezel added for good measure. Because even with all the quirky Vostoks out there, that bezel looks a bit _too_ quirky, right? Wrong!

In the Vostok catalog from 2001 I found these "Vostok Partner" (Восток Партнёр) models:









So the dial is probably a 956. The shape of the bezel looks similar to the -02, just without the gold color. The catalog also lists several 431 variants, but not with this specific dial.

Any way to find out if this watch is an original 431956-01 or a Franken? The amount of dust on the dial probably points towards the latter. The crown looks suspicious as well, since it doesn't show any wear compared to the crown guards (on the other hand: solid steel vs. chrome-plated). It also doesn't screw in all the way, leaving quite a gap. The movement currently loses 12 minutes(!) per day, even though the regulator is pointing all the way towards "+".


----------



## Chascomm

cgrad said:


> Hi, I'm new to WUS and wanted to share my first "interesting" Vostok, which I picked up because I liked the dial:
> 
> View attachment 16206288
> View attachment 16206287
> View attachment 16206286
> 
> 
> My initial thought was that the dial and hands were taken from a dress watch, transplanted into a beat-up 431 case, with a weird third-party bezel added for good measure. Because even with all the quirky Vostoks out there, that bezel looks a bit _too_ quirky, right? Wrong!
> 
> In the Vostok catalog from 2001 I found these "Vostok Partner" (Восток Партнёр) models:
> View attachment 16206290
> 
> 
> So the dial is probably a 956. The shape of the bezel looks similar to the -02, just without the gold color. The catalog also lists several 431 variants, but not with this specific dial.
> 
> Any way to find out if this watch is an original 431956-01 or a Franken? The amount of dust on the dial probably points towards the latter. The crown looks suspicious as well, since it doesn't show any wear compared to the crown guards (on the other hand: solid steel vs. chrome-plated). It also doesn't screw in all the way, leaving quite a gap. The movement currently loses 12 minutes(!) per day, even though the regulator is pointing all the way towards "+".


The gold details on the bezel would be an additional layer of plating which might have worn off. The crown is the correct type but I agree that it would typically wear similar to the adjacent case. Therefore probably a replacement.


----------



## capannelle

Ligavesh said:


> Dial is legit, here's a picture from the Italian catalogue of old Vostoks:
> 
> View attachment 16205943
> 
> 
> Otherwise, what @Avidfan said about the case and hands... If you ever want to sell it, @Dave098 , give me a call (that is, write me a PM ).


Thanks from 'The italian catalogue'


----------



## Ligavesh

This loook legit? I cannot find the exact combination in the catalogs, though I did find similar models. Those hands and indeces might be silver, just appear gold in the picture. The engraving on the back is legit, I recognize it, it's from ex-Yugoslavia, it was a present to a worker from the company.



















Hands and indeces are probably silver, just look golden from the lighting.

edit: like in this picture from a catalogue from the 70s:










the case is gilded, not chromed, and the chromed case with the same shape in the same catolgue looks like this:










But maybe they just didn't include ALL of the dial/case combinations. everything else about the backstory adds up (worker got the watch as a gift from the factory in the 70s).


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This loook legit? I cannot find the exact combination in the catalogs, though I did find similar models. Those hands and indeces might be silver, just appear gold in the picture. The engraving on the back is legit, I recognize it, it's from ex-Yugoslavia, it was a present to a worker from the company.
> 
> View attachment 16211568
> 
> 
> View attachment 16211569
> 
> 
> Hands and indeces are probably silver, just look golden from the lighting.
> 
> edit: like in this picture from a catalogue from the 70s:
> 
> View attachment 16211578
> 
> 
> the case is gilded, not chromed, and the chromed case with the same shape in the same catolgue looks like this:
> 
> View attachment 16211579
> 
> 
> But maybe they just didn't include ALL of the dial/case combinations. everything else about the backstory adds up (worker got the watch as a gift from the factory in the 70s).


given the paint in the center of the hour markers, I think the hands are wrong. Take a look.


----------



## Handmodelcitizen

I’m pretty new to this and am trying to figure out if this Copernicus is legit. 
View attachment 16213510
View attachment 16213507
View attachment 16213508
View attachment 16213509
View attachment 16213510

View attachment 16213509

View attachment 16213508


----------



## palletwheel

Handmodelcitizen said:


> I’m pretty new to this and am trying to figure out if this Copernicus is legit.
> View attachment 16213510
> View attachment 16213507
> View attachment 16213508
> View attachment 16213509
> View attachment 16213510
> 
> View attachment 16213509
> 
> View attachment 16213508


A shot of the caseback would help, that's conspicuously missing. The ratchet wheel is unfamiliar, I never recall seeing that on these movements. I'd love to hear comments on that. I also can't see the "Made in SSSR" logo on the dial. Try to see if you can get better photos.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> given the paint in the center of the hour markers, I think the hands are wrong. Take a look.
> View attachment 16213253
> 
> View attachment 16213254


True, but those photos don't show a blue dial - and this is an export model. I think the hands are correct for the dial (you see them in my photo of the gilded watch), the question is, did they put that dial in a chromed or only in a gilded case (like my photo is showing)? The backstory speaks for a legitimacy of the watch - that the watch came in a gilded case (like in my photo, No. 6)










was used and then put in an unused chromed case with a matching crown - that fits the model year - and then was never worn again (no signs on the watch for that)...seems weird - the simplest explanation would be that the watch came with a blue dial in a chromed case and was never worn - as it was a gift from the worker's factory.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> A shot of the caseback would help, that's conspicuously missing. The ratchet wheel is unfamiliar, I never recall seeing that on these movements. I'd love to hear comments on that. I also can't see the "Made in SSSR" logo on the dial. Try to see if you can get better photos.


ratchet wheel is replaced from a more later movement (if you ship the watch to me I will swap the wheel for you for free (I will keep the HP wheel for my ‘troubles’ and you will get the right wheel).
crystal is a modern replica (not original).
the rest looks Ok to me.
overall: not a bad Copernicus.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> True, but those photos don't show a blue dial - and this is an export model. I think the hands are correct for the dial (you see them in my photo of the gilded watch), the question is, did they put that dial in a chromed or only in a gilded case (like my photo is showing)? The backstory speaks for a legitimacy of the watch - that the watch came in a gilded case (like in my photo, No. 6)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> was used and then put in an unused chromed case with a matching crown - that fits the model year - and then was never worn again (no signs on the watch for that)...seems weird - the simplest explanation would be that the watch came with a blue dial in a chromed case and was never worn - as it was a gift from the worker's factory.


this is NOT the same dial. This dial has different indexes w/o the paint stipe in the middle.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is NOT the same dial. This dial has different indexes w/o the paint stipe in the middle.


This is not the same dial?










If not, then what kind of hands should the watch have? Thin white hands?

edit: weird, I can't find a blue no-date dial with white paint on the indeces in any catologue.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> This is not the same dial?
> 
> View attachment 16214024
> 
> 
> If not, then what kind of hands should the watch have? Thin white hands?
> 
> edit: weird, I can't find a blue no-date dial with white paint on the indeces in any catologue.


yes, I think this is different.


----------



## Foo1

Anybody ever bought from this seller? Is this legit, and if so any idea what the case diameter is for this model?









Vintage Watch, VOSTOK, Amphibian, Komandirskie, Military Russian Watch, Rare | eBay


VOSTOK AMPHIBIAN Komandirskie Military Soviet Russian USSR DIVER watch (rare). Russian military soldier watch. waterproof is achieved by screw clock winder and embedded by special technology rarely thick watch crystal.



www.ebay.com


----------



## RobNJ

Foo1 said:


> Anybody ever bought from this seller? Is this legit, and if so any idea what the case diameter is for this model?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Watch, VOSTOK, Amphibian, Komandirskie, Military Russian Watch, Rare | eBay
> 
> 
> VOSTOK AMPHIBIAN Komandirskie Military Soviet Russian USSR DIVER watch (rare). Russian military soldier watch. waterproof is achieved by screw clock winder and embedded by special technology rarely thick watch crystal.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I don't know the case dimension nor the seller, but let me note that there are still a couple of the Partner line being sold by Meranom (not sure if I can link; just search for "Meranom Vostok Partner") for the same price, new. If you like this watch in particular you can also search through that to check authenticity. It looks legit, but there are lots of dial/bezel combinations to wade through.


----------



## Avidfan

Foo1 said:


> Anybody ever bought from this seller? Is this legit, and if so any idea what the case diameter is for this model?
> 
> http://[URL]https://www.ebay.com/itm/133921339525?hash=item1f2e557885:g:m~8AAOSwyr9hgB7~[/URL]


It's a franken!

The movement is from the 1970's, the caseback is from a Vostok Troika (another Vostok sub-brand) 

If you want a legit Partner buy from a reputable seller...


----------



## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> It's a franken!
> 
> The movement is from the 1970's, the caseback is from a Vostok Troika (another Vostok sub-brand)
> 
> If you want a legit Partner buy from a reputable seller...


but you will get the gun and the leather holster with the watch and all for the 74$. Not bad. No?


----------



## Bizpit

This thread has been a fantastic resource to search through, especially for Raketa Copernicuses (planning on finding/procuring one in the near future hopefully!).

But then I ran into a stunning Komandirskie. It looks basically identical to the one in this collection but quite different from the one here (different second hand, date window text colour, star placement is slightly different, and the text seems bolded compared to it). Is this just manufacturing differences, or a replacement dial?


----------



## 979greenwich

Bizpit said:


> This thread has been a fantastic resource to search through, especially for Raketa Copernicuses (planning on finding/procuring one in the near future hopefully!).
> 
> But then I ran into a stunning Komandirskie. It looks basically identical to the one in this collection but quite different from the one here (different second hand, date window text colour, star placement is slightly different, and the text seems bolded compared to it). Is this just manufacturing differences, or a replacement dial?
> 
> View attachment 16215846
> 
> 
> View attachment 16215845
> 
> 
> View attachment 16215847


In my opinion, it's in near perfect condition, that's all.
The one in mroatman's collection has a wrong second hand and date wheel.


----------



## miroman

Of course I can be wrong, but I think the dial is "new-made".
The lume should be beige than white. 
Also the ratchet wheel is from a non-sloped movement.
It should be like this: Movement cal. 2234 Vostok watch USSR | eBay

Regards, Miro.


----------



## elsoldemayo

The new made dials have perfectly aligned 'printed' lume and this one has what appears to be hand painted lume. That and the perfect condition of the case suggests it's just sat in a drawer for nearly 50 years and the lume has not faded to beige.


----------



## 979greenwich

miroman said:


> Of course I can be wrong, but I think the dial is "new-made".
> The lume should be beige than white.
> Also the ratchet wheel is from a non-sloped movement.
> It should be like this: Movement cal. 2234 Vostok watch USSR | eBay
> 
> Regards, Miro.


Agree to disagree on all counts.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Agree to disagree on all counts.


Exterior is nice. It looks legit to me. Maybe relumed but nicely done so it is just fine with me. 
movement has issues. Ratchet wheel is wrong. 
balance bridge and balance are from a much later watch.


----------



## 979greenwich

In that case, these two I have in a joblot should be even newer. I don't think there is a definitive configuration of parts for this watch, rather that the factory used what was available.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> In that case, these two I have in a joblot should be even newer. I don't think there is a definitive configuration of parts for this watch, rather that the factory used what was available.


you may be right.


----------



## RobNJ

For what it's worth, I was comparing the image of a 2234 in the 1976 Vostok catalog (p. 80) to the image of a 2214 in the 1977 Vostok catalog (p. 22). Different movements, of course, but I'm not sure why the hack function should matter to the parts we're looking at. Anyway, different ratchet wheels (Vostok stars vs. no stars), different train bridge design, and, I think, different regulator and stud holder design shown one year apart.

None of which proves anything, but it might incline me to the belief that trying to find a single acceptable movement variation for this particular Komandirskie over the whole of its production run is misguided. There still may be combinations that are "wrong," of course, and I might still tend, for example, to assume that a starred wheel is more likely to be earlier in the production history.


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> For what it's worth, I was comparing the image of a 2234 in the 1976 Vostok catalog (p. 80) to the image of a 2214 in the 1977 Vostok catalog (p. 22). Different movements, of course, but I'm not sure why the hack function should matter to the parts we're looking at. Anyway, different ratchet wheels (Vostok stars vs. no stars), different train bridge design, and, I think, different regulator and stud holder design shown one year apart.
> 
> None of which proves anything, but it might incline me to the belief that trying to find a single acceptable movement variation for this particular Komandirskie over the whole of its production run is misguided. There still may be combinations that are "wrong," of course, and I might still tend, for example, to assume that a starred wheel is more likely to be earlier in the production history.


yes, we know that movement got simplified in the later years. The catalogs in 1977 still have beveled ratchet wheel (even if w/stars) and balance regular with more elaborate construction with screw holding stud. I think only in the 80s the simplified balances emerged and beveled edges started to disappear. So the question is: were these Komandirskie made in very late 70s and after? Maybe.

this is 1975 watch that I am certain. We need more watches with specific dates so we can draw some conclusions. i have a few more of these models but no exact production year so ot is useless for this debade


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> yes, we know that movement got simplified in the later years. The catalogs in 1977 still have beveled ratchet wheel (even if w/stars) and balance regular with more elaborate construction with screw holding stud. I think only in the 80s the simplified balances emerged and beveled edges started to disappear. So the question is: were these Komandirskie made in very late 70s and after? Maybe.
> 
> this is 1975 watch that I am certain. We need more watches with specific dates so we can draw some conclusions
> View attachment 16217286


Actually we had this discussion about one I recently bought (scroll down a bit):









Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a...


I would put the dial in a Titan case but I think you've got a couple of those already :) Already have this dial in a Titan, and sold another last week.




www.watchuseek.com





And a lot of old discussions here:









Second Generation Christopol Komandirskie (CA 1960s)...


P.S. I am looking for one of those burgundy commemorative dials, but specifically in the round gold case, if I can find one. I think Ralf (Doledolf) has one...




www.watchuseek.com





I'll sort of take a stab and say pre 77 you see finished movements, 77 simplified with movement number and script B, maybe some leftover parts usage, then post 77 never any leftover parts usage, and sometime early 80s the script B gets dropped, also the gold on the watch itself is thinner and gets that really shiny texture we see on this watch.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Actually we had this discussion about one I recently bought (scroll down a bit):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a...
> 
> 
> I would put the dial in a Titan case but I think you've got a couple of those already :) Already have this dial in a Titan, and sold another last week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a lot of old discussions here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second Generation Christopol Komandirskie (CA 1960s)...
> 
> 
> P.S. I am looking for one of those burgundy commemorative dials, but specifically in the round gold case, if I can find one. I think Ralf (Doledolf) has one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll sort of take a stab and say pre 77 you see finished movements, 77 simplified with movement number and script B, maybe some leftover parts usage, then post 77 never any leftover parts usage, and sometime early 80s the script B gets dropped, also the gold on the watch itself is thinner and gets that really shiny texture we see on this watch.


all this is true when we just talk about movements. But I am questioning Movement + This specific watch design (rectangular with the colorful dials). It was not produced in 80s. Right? The last catalog appearance is 1979.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> all this is true when we just talk about movements. But I am questioning Movement + This specific watch design (rectangular with the colorful dials). It was not produced in 80s. Right? The last catalog appearance is 1979.


I can't figure the production run of this watch. I think the first catalog appearance is in 76 given the attached catalog, though you say you have one from 75? Is there an earlier catalog? If the last catalog appearance is in 79, that's basically around 3 years, which is a pretty short run, not particularly economical, though this case was used for other dials, right?. Still, not a long run. So was this case made in the 80s? If so this can be an interesting Franken where someone is doing a hand lume on a newly printed dial, a not impossible thing and putting it together with an 80s movement and case.


----------



## 979greenwich

Yes, it's hard to say how long the model was in production, it could have continued into the '80s. From the amount of them you can still find on Ebay (that even survived the smelter crisis), you can guess it was a popular model.

Here are some movements of this model currently on sale, you can really see all the combinations.


----------



## Bizpit

Thank you all! I ended up biting the bullet and purchasing it. If the movement isn't original I'm OK with it as the rest seems to be in great condition.
Is there a good resource anywhere for identifying the correct movement for Komandirskies/Vostoks outside of the caliber?


----------



## 979greenwich

Bizpit said:


> Thank you all! I ended up biting the bullet and purchasing it. If the movement isn't original I'm OK with it as the rest seems to be in great condition.
> Is there a good resource anywhere for identifying the correct movement for Komandirskies/Vostoks outside of the caliber?


Yes, this thread.
And this one:








Early Generation Komandirskie's


Comrades, I've noticed that while there have been a few individual discussions as to early-generation Komandirskie's, it is scattered across several threads. With this post, I would like to consolidate that information as sort of a master record - taking a hint from this older post...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Handmodelcitizen

S


----------



## Ligavesh

Handmodelcitizen said:


> Wondering about this copernicus? Everything looks good to me but I’m still not exactly sure
> View attachment 16219136
> View attachment 16219133
> 
> View attachment 16219135
> 
> View attachment 16219134
> 
> View attachment 16219133
> 
> View attachment 16219134
> 
> View attachment 16219135
> 
> View attachment 16219136
> 
> View attachment 16219137


Crown has been replaced, probably when servicing the watch, the balance wheel has also been changed with an older one (beveled edge vs. not-beveled on the other parts), the rest seems fine.


----------



## 979greenwich

The dial also looks like a reproduction to me.


----------



## Ligavesh

979greenwich said:


> The dial also looks like a reproduction to me.


I've always thought those would be hard to reproduce so good, but maybe you're right.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends!
Can you help me with this Sputnik? The second hand looks newer to me, but I can't tell. 

Thanks!
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends!
> Can you help me with this Sputnik? The second hand looks newer to me, but I can't tell.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Slightly wrong crown but I would totally ignore that. Good watch. All legit as far as I can see.


----------



## RobNJ

Now I have Slavas on the mind... OK, may I ask for opinions on this one? (I won't bother with the back and movement; they are unremarkable and I believe correct. It's the case/dial/handset I'm worried about.)










The problem is that Slava made a lot of really close models in the 1970s. From one of the 1979 Slava catalogs, model 111317:










OK, on that alone the watch looks wrong; the hands are filled and there is a paddle seconds.

But then, from one of the 1977 general catalogs, p. 43, there is model 101288:










I don't think that case was beveled, I think it is just reflections. And I don't see filled hands, at least not in white, and I can barely see the second hand at all - which at least suggests to me that it was not a filled paddle hand. But boy this is a bad image.

Thus I'm stuck between "I can't prove it's good" and a sort of "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" hopefulness, bolstered again by Slava's tendency in the period to do iterations on a theme. Thanks in advance - opinions?


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> Now I have Slavas on the mind... OK, may I ask for opinions on this one? (I won't bother with the back and movement; they are unremarkable and I believe correct. It's the case/dial/handset I'm worried about.)
> 
> View attachment 16222402
> 
> 
> The problem is that Slava made a lot of really close models in the 1970s. From one of the 1979 Slava catalogs, model 111317:
> 
> View attachment 16222407
> 
> 
> OK, on that alone the watch looks wrong; the hands are filled and there is a paddle seconds.
> 
> But then, from one of the 1977 general catalogs, p. 43, there is model 101288:
> 
> View attachment 16222410
> 
> 
> I don't think that case was beveled, I think it is just reflections. And I don't see filled hands, at least not in white, and I can barely see the second hand at all - which at least suggests to me that it was not a filled paddle hand. But boy this is a bad image.
> 
> Thus I'm stuck between "I can't prove it's good" and a sort of "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence" hopefulness, bolstered again by Slava's tendency in the period to do iterations on a theme. Thanks in advance - opinions?


hard to tell. I found one more image. Potentially hands are wrong…. But maybe they made like these as well


----------



## RobNJ

Yes, there are images of 111317 in both 1979 catalogs - both shown with the paddle hand. Though the contrast between that watch and the gold version next to it in the catalog is also interesting because of the difference in second hands. Meanwhile, I've seen 101288 nowhere else than the 1977 multi-factory catalog. 

Hmm, I'll have to think - it's visually appealing if nothing else. Thanks!


----------



## haha

Hello all,
Looking for information about this "Slava". Its authenticity seems more than doubtful to me. Any idea what the movement could be ?


----------



## Chascomm

haha said:


> Hello all,
> Looking for information about this "Slava". Its authenticity seems more than doubtful to me. Any idea what the movement could be ?
> 
> View attachment 16223478
> 
> View attachment 16223477


This is not a Slava. It is a Slava Sozvezdie, which started as a spin-off brand but now lingers as an independent entity feeding off the reputation of Slava. New watches of this brand are sold directly from China.

In this example the movement appears to be a Hangzhou Xihu, no longer in production so this is likely an older watch. In spite of the ‘Russia’ dial inscription it is probable that the entire watch was made and assembled in China.

The 24-hour markings are meaningless as this is a 12-hour only movement. But it probably left the factory like that.

In summary; it’s not a fake, or a frankenwatch, but it is certainly not a Slava either.


----------



## haha

Chascomm said:


> This is not a Slava. It is a Slava Sozvezdie, which started as a spin-off brand but now lingers as an independent entity feeding off the reputation of Slava. New watches of this brand are sold directly fro
> 
> In this example the movement appears to be a Hangzhou Xihu, no longer in production so this is likely an older watch. In spite of the ‘Russia’ dial inscription it is probable that the entire watch was made and assembled in China.
> 
> The 24-hour markings are meaningless as this is a 12-hour only movement. But it probably left the factory like that.
> 
> In summary; it’s not a fake, or a frankenwatch, but it is certainly not a Slava either.


Thanks a lot for this quick and detailed answer !


----------



## miroman

It's not СЛАВА, it's C J I A B A, just looks like СЛАВА


----------



## Lichtie

Comrades

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've spotted a couple of watches described as Molnija Big Zeros, but cannot find anything to reassure me that they aren't fantasies or frankens. I really like the look of both of them

Black








































White

















Can anyone reassure me that these are genuine? I wouldn't mind if they were originally pocket watches that had been converted into wristwatches, but don't want to buy a re-dialed fake

Thanks in advance


----------



## Odessa200

Lichtie said:


> Comrades
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster.
> 
> I've spotted a couple of watches described as Molnija Big Zeros, but cannot find anything to reassure me that they aren't fantasies or frankens. I really like the look of both of them
> 
> Black
> View attachment 16230574
> View attachment 16230576
> View attachment 16230585
> View attachment 16230586
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16230576
> 
> 
> White
> View attachment 16230585
> 
> View attachment 16230586
> 
> 
> Can anyone reassure me that these are genuine? I wouldn't mind if they were originally pocket watches that had been converted into wristwatches, but don't want to buy a re-dialed fake
> 
> Thanks in advance


Finaly! I was wondering when will the fakers tap into the Molniya-Big Zero… . Joking.

no, these are fakes. They have soviet movement and this is it. The rest is China and homemade dials. I have one like this (real Molniya dial (not zero), real movement, china case): if you like it, why not?


----------



## salmeine

I’ve never seen the dial variant of this Sturmanskie… Would love to hear your thoughts


----------



## RobNJ

salmeine said:


> I’ve never seen the dial variant of this Sturmanskie… Would love to hear your thoughts
> View attachment 16232426
> 
> View attachment 16232428
> 
> View attachment 16232427


If you're looking for a 1950s Sturmanskie, no. Modern/repro/printed dial, modern hands, the case looks like a ZIM case from the 1980s or so. Likely a ZIM 15j movement as well. If it appeals to you as an homage or fantasy watch, go ahead, but I wouldn't pay much at all for it.


----------



## MSC78

Hi - can anyone more expert than me help to to date this 2603 movement? It's in a Petrodvorets Mayak watch, which I've found in a 1960 catalogue; but I don't know enough about these movements to know if it's from a similar date. Should there be some text on the drum wheel, and a date stamp, like similar movements from the same period? Or does it look OK for a 1960 watch? Thanks in advance for any expert advice!


----------



## Odessa200

MSC78 said:


> Hi - can anyone more expert than me help to to date this 2603 movement? It's in a Petrodvorets Mayak watch, which I've found in a 1960 catalogue; but I don't know enough about these movements to know if it's from a similar date. Should there be some text on the drum wheel, and a date stamp, like similar movements from the same period? Or does it look OK for a 1960 watch? Thanks in advance for any expert advice!
> View attachment 16232949


hi. It was made late 50s early 60s. Given the stamp: before 1965.

looks all correct except it has the balance from 2MChZ.

cheers!


----------



## palletwheel

I found this Pobeda 34K, how does it look? I think the crown is a little tilted judging by the photo, but I get the feeling it's otherwise OK.


----------



## salmeine

RobNJ said:


> If you're looking for a 1950s Sturmanskie, no. Modern/repro/printed dial, modern hands, the case looks like a ZIM case from the 1980s or so. Likely a ZIM 15j movement as well. If it appeals to you as an homage or fantasy watch, go ahead, but I wouldn't pay much at all for it.


Ended up purchasing for $55, fell in love with the case shape and dial. Seller was awesome too, apparently he bought it during a visit to Russia in the 80's.


----------



## MSC78

Odessa200 said:


> hi. It was made late 50s early 60s. Given the stamp: before 1965.
> 
> looks all correct except it has the balance from 2MChZ.
> 
> cheers!


Great - many thanks for your help, I appreciate it1


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I found this Pobeda 34K, how does it look? I think the crown is a little tilted judging by the photo, but I get the feeling it's otherwise OK.


I see 2 issues and maybe 1 more. Maybe is the footer for the stem that is visible on the inside. Maybe it was replaced. Maybe some were made this way. This is why I say ‘maybe’.
Ratchet wheel is from ChChZ (easy fix)
balance probably replaced. Look at the shape of the regulator and the Geneva waves look a bit different from the rest. Compare with other movements in such watches. Ok


----------



## Odessa200

salmeine said:


> Ended up purchasing for $55, fell in love with the case shape and dial. Seller was awesome too, apparently he bought it during a visit to Russia in the 80's.


I highly doubt that. This is a relatively new fake dial. Maybe late 90s or after. Not 80s. No way!


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I see 2 issues and maybe 1 more. Maybe is the footer for the stem that is visible on the inside. Maybe it was replaced. Maybe some were made this way. This is why I say ‘maybe’.
> Ratchet wheel is from ChChZ (easy fix)
> balance probably replaced. Look at the shape of the regulator and the Geneva waves look a bit different from the rest. Compare with other movements in such watches. Ok
> View attachment 16235175


I have to really look at these things when I'm rested, the ratchet wheel I should've known better but the regulator is subtle. Thanks.


----------



## RobNJ

palletwheel said:


> I have to really look at these things when I'm rested, the ratchet wheel I should've known better but the regulator is subtle. Thanks.


Less subtle than the regulator, it shouldn't have shock protection at all, should it? Or am I missing something? (Of course, if you don't care about originality, adding it might be an upgrade.)


----------



## Brblesh

New to Russian/Soviet watches so i need some help with this Poljot de Luxe.
Is the dial replaced/fake because the letters seem strange? Also this one has the First Moscow Watch Factory stamp, and i noticed that such models usually also have a stamp on this wheel, could it be that it was just replaced later?


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> Less subtle than the regulator, it shouldn't have shock protection at all, should it? Or am I missing something? (Of course, if you don't care about originality, adding it might be an upgrade.)


you are missing something . These Pobedas are shockproof.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> New to Russian/Soviet watches so i need some help with this Poljot de Luxe.
> Is the dial replaced/fake because the letters seem strange? Also this one has the First Moscow Watch Factory stamp, and i noticed that such models usually also have a stamp on this wheel, could it be that it was just replaced later?
> View attachment 16236204
> 
> View attachment 16236219
> 
> View attachment 16236217


dial is real.
ratchet wheel is from a Luch (same movement but done by a different factory): you picket this issue right.
back cover is also from a Luch
Wrong winding crown.
The rest looks good to me. 
Cheers!


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> dial is real.
> ratchet wheel is from a Luch (same movement but done by a different factory): you picket this issue right.
> back cover is also from a Luch
> Wrong winding crown.
> The rest looks good to me.
> Cheers!


Thank you for the quick response. So basicaly the watch is legit, just some parts have been replaced probably for repair.
Most Poljot de Luxe watches i have found on ebay or etsy actually have the Luch movement. I am trying to get one with the original old Poljot movement, but they seem less common, and the case or dial are usually in quite a worse condition.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you for the quick response. So basicaly the watch is legit, just some parts have been replaced probably for repair.
> Most Poljot de Luxe watches i have found on ebay or etsy actually have the Luch movement. I am trying to get one with the original old Poljot movement, but they seem less common, and the case or dial are usually in quite a worse condition.


yes. The biggest issue with this watch is the crown that I would try to replace later. The ratchet wheel and the back cover are minor: not visible and do not take away from the beauty of the watch. The difference in the back cover: Poljot was using radial polishing and Luch was using straight so you barely can see the difference.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> yes. The biggest issue with this watch is the crown that I would try to replace later. The ratchet wheel and the back cover are minor: not visible and do not take away from the beauty of the watch. The difference in the back cover: Poljot was using radial polishing and Luch was using straight so you barely can see the difference.


I really appreciate your help, thank you so much. Looking out for details like that is part of the charm, but since i am just starting and doing research myself, it is quite hard, and your knowledge helps immensely. The price isn't much lower than some other i have my eye on (all are around 100eur). If you don't mind i would love to post them here for your opinion.


----------



## Caledonia

I have to say this thread is superb, invaluable information, I doff my cap to the many experts & contributors here.
Through reading this forum I have learned so much & found a real interest in Russian watches.
Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> I really appreciate your help, thank you so much. Looking out for details like that is part of the charm, but since i am just starting and doing research myself, it is quite hard, and your knowledge helps immensely. The price isn't much lower than some other i have my eye on (all are around 100eur). If you don't mind i would love to post them here for your opinion.


Of course. Post your choices one at a time (easier to comment this way).


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> Of course. Post your choices one at a time (easier to comment this way).


Thank you. So this is another one, but not with a dark dial.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you. So this is another one, but not with a dark dial.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16237678
> View attachment 16237679
> View attachment 16237680
> View attachment 16237681


fake dial. Pass on this one


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> fake dial. Pass on this one


Thank you very much.
I have one more. Sorry for spamming with my de luxes, this will be the last one for a while.
What do you think of this one? The glass seems more convex, probably replaced? But to my untrained eye the rest seems ok, 1mchz stamps, radial polish like you mentioned.
Also a question about this type of hands, i have seen a few models with them, did they appear on some models after the earliest?


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you very much.
> I have one more. Sorry for spamming with my de luxes, this will be the last one for a while.
> What do you think of this one? The glass seems more convex, probably replaced? But to my untrained eye the rest seems ok, 1mchz stamps, radial polish like you mentioned.
> Also a question about this type of hands, i have seen a few models with them, did they appear on some models after the earliest?
> View attachment 16238483
> View attachment 16238484
> View attachment 16238486
> View attachment 16238485
> View attachment 16238487
> View attachment 16238488


Crystal is for sure replaced. It should be a much slimmer. The rest looks good. Here is the catalog picture. To better understand different models/hands take a look at the catalogs!


----------



## Brblesh

Another one of these Kirova Sputniks has resurfaced. I know there has already been talk about them on the forum, but they are always interesting.
The details on the globe on the dial seem fine on this one, and also the second hand is a Sputnik. The crown seems also fine i guess.
I don't have pics of the movement, but i could ask for some.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Another one of these Kirova Sputniks has resurfaced. I know there has already been talk about them on the forum, but they are always interesting.
> The details on the globe on the dial seem fine on this one, and also the second hand is a Sputnik. The crown seems also fine i guess.
> I don't have pics of the movement, but i could ask for some.
> 
> View attachment 16241625
> View attachment 16241627
> View attachment 16241626


all that is shown is correct.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> all that is shown is correct.


Thank you. Here is an update with the dial.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you. Here is an update with the dial.
> View attachment 16242107


all good.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> all good.


Thank you very much.

Does anyone know what the usual price value of those is?


----------



## elsoldemayo

All original with correct second hand and dial in good condition, I would expect in the 200 euro range but it would not surprise me to see it listed quite a bit higher.


----------



## Brblesh

elsoldemayo said:


> All original with correct second hand and dial in good condition, I would expect in the 200 euro range but it would not surprise me to see it listed quite a bit higher.


Thank you very much for the info.


----------



## Ligavesh

Does this look legit:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Dies this look legit:
> 
> View attachment 16244117
> 
> 
> View attachment 16244119
> 
> 
> View attachment 16244122
> 
> 
> View attachment 16244123


Wrong second hand and crown


----------



## RobNJ

Odessa200 said:


> Wrong second hand and crown


Wait, what's wrong with that second hand?


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> Wait, what's wrong with that second hand?


waiting…. Look at this enormous tail. And compare with the catalog image (or any other watches). The specimen in question has the tail that is about 1/2 the length of the hour hand! This hand was taken from a much larger watch and trimmed to the length…


----------



## RobNJ

Odessa200 said:


> waiting…. Look at this enormous tail. And compare with the catalog image (or any other watches). The specimen in question has the tail that is about 1/2 the length of the hour hand! This hand was taken from a much larger watch and trimmed to the length…
> View attachment 16244821
> 
> View attachment 16244818


Subtle, but OK, thanks, I see that now.

On another note, ChN-361K, the only red (faded to brown) dial variant in the 1960 catalog, is supposed to have a blue ring - also faded to brown in many real-world examples. Is the ring here blue or black? Is it a mix of a 361K dial with a 163K ring?

Even if it's a marriage watch, I have to say it is a pretty happy marriage. At the right price, maybe.


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> Subtle, but OK, thanks, I see that now.
> 
> On another note, ChN-361K, the only red (faded to brown) dial variant in the 1960 catalog, is supposed to have a blue ring - also faded to brown in many real-world examples. Is the ring here blue or black? Is it a mix of a 361K dial with a 163K ring?
> 
> Even if it's a marriage watch, I have to say it is a pretty happy marriage. At the right price, maybe.


I agree with that and also have one of these with the exact same colors. Maybe blue faded to black? Maybe uncataloged variation. Maybe result of repairs. Given that we see this combo so much I think it is a ‘legit’ watch.


----------



## nezaDK

I really wanted a De Luxe automatic and finally got "lucky" with one that looked to be in descent shape at an okay price (€50 shipped). questions is, is it real? it looks oily on the inside so in dire need of a service and a new gasket. claimed to be "found in leftovers from an estate"


----------



## Odessa200

nezaDK said:


> I really wanted a De Luxe automatic and finally got "lucky" with one that looked to be in descent shape at an okay price (€50 shipped). questions is, is it real? it looks oily on the inside so in dire need of a service and a new gasket. claimed to be "found in leftovers from an estate"
> 
> View attachment 16248576
> 
> View attachment 16248581
> View attachment 16248580


Great find my friend! All is legit.


----------



## steros

What is original / not original in this one?:








VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR MENS Watch VOSTOK AMPHIBIA mechanics workers RARE | eBay


Water Resistance 200 M. ALL PICTURES ARE ACTUAL. YOU RECEIVE WHAT YOU SEE.



www.ebay.com


----------



## capannelle

steros said:


> What is original / not original in this one?:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VINTAGE SOVIET RUSSIA USSR MENS Watch VOSTOK AMPHIBIA mechanics workers RARE | eBay
> 
> 
> Water Resistance 200 M. ALL PICTURES ARE ACTUAL. YOU RECEIVE WHAT YOU SEE.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


The watch is legit, but the crown has been replaced with a more modern one


----------



## nezaDK

whats the pros thoughts on this 3133 Poljot and what kind of price range would a post soviet union item like this be in? the reason im asking about price range is i see 3133's go from ~€150ish up to +€300


----------



## Brblesh

nezaDK said:


> whats the pros thoughts on this 3133 Poljot and what kind of price range would a post soviet union item like this be in? the reason im asking about price range is i see 3133's go from ~€150ish up to +€300
> View attachment 16252141
> 
> View attachment 16252142


I am a complete amateur and haven't been very interested in post Soviet Poljots, but if I understand correctly, by the model stamp it should be dated between 1995-1997.
I don't know anything about this particular model, I looked through the 1996-1997 catalogues that I have, but haven't found it.
But just like I said, I am by no means an expert, just wanted to put my two cents in.


----------



## PiotrS

I think it's the dial, the mechanism should be in the 1994+ order then.
The case is from the later 2000+.
I think so, but I am not sure.


----------



## Brblesh

PiotrS said:


> I think it's the dial, the mechanism should be in the 1994+ order then.
> The case is from the later 2000+.
> I think so, but I am not sure.
> View attachment 16253921


The guide one the polmax3133 site is really detailed and great help. Post Soviet movements with this type of stamp on the chrono bridge (cyrillic without the "SU") were produced only 1995-1997, before that were the "SU" stamps and after that the latinic letters with a letter "P" before the model number. There are a number of things that changed in the movement throughout the years, but in this case, the stamp is the easiest and narrows it down to a short period of time.
Like i said, i didn't manage to find this exact model (with this case and dial) in the catalogues, which doesn't mean it didn't exist. I am not sure how much they fake or franken these newer Poljot models.


----------



## PiotrS

Brblesh
Yes you are right. 
The dial I showed, comes from the 1994 catalog (the catalog could be for 1995), the case is from the 2000+ years, so in my opinion it is a franken.
but I can be wrong.

polmax3133
ca. 1996
Russian Government initiates bankruptcy proceedings against Poljot.

"SU” prefix removed from model number stamp on chronograph bridge.


----------



## GABRIEL IGLESIAS

What about this Vympel?


----------



## nezaDK

Brblesh said:


> The guide one the polmax3133 site is really detailed and great help. Post Soviet movements with this type of stamp on the chrono bridge (cyrillic without the "SU") were produced only 1995-1997, before that were the "SU" stamps and after that the latinic letters with a letter "P" before the model number. There are a number of things that changed in the movement throughout the years, but in this case, the stamp is the easiest and narrows it down to a short period of time.
> Like i said, i didn't manage to find this exact model (with this case and dial) in the catalogues, which doesn't mean it didn't exist. I am not sure how much they fake or franken these newer Poljot models.





PiotrS said:


> Brblesh
> Yes you are right.
> The dial I showed, comes from the 1994 catalog (the catalog could be for 1995), the case is from the 2000+ years, so in my opinion it is a franken.
> but I can be wrong.
> 
> polmax3133
> ca. 1996
> Russian Government initiates bankruptcy proceedings against Poljot.
> 
> "SU” prefix removed from model number stamp on chronograph bridge.


thanks, i skipped on it and found another 3133 that was easier to validate


----------



## Odessa200

GABRIEL IGLESIAS said:


> What about this Vympel?


wrong crown and probably crystal. Other than that looks right.


----------



## Ligavesh

Anyone know something about this Poljot:



















??


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## Chascomm

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know something about this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 16258583
> 
> 
> View attachment 16258584
> 
> 
> ??


There is a lot to like in that watch.

Is the applied 'POLJOT' logo gold or silver colour? It's hard to tell from the photos, so I'm wondering if the hands have been replaced.


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## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Anyone know something about this Poljot:
> 
> View attachment 16258583
> 
> 
> View attachment 16258584
> 
> 
> ??


Wrong hands. I do not know why the model number is different in 2 catalogs but it is same watch (even on same bracelet and showing same time) and obviously with different hands


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Wrong hands. I do not know why the model number is different in 2 catalogs but it is same watch (even on same bracelet and showing same time) and obviously with different hands
> View attachment 16258850
> 
> View attachment 16258851


yeah, the hands really did look out of place, thanks


----------



## Ligavesh

Chascomm said:


> There is a lot to like in that watch.
> 
> Is the applied 'POLJOT' logo gold or silver colour? It's hard to tell from the photos, so I'm wondering if the hands have been replaced.


Not sure to be honest, there aren't many pictures... for me the biggest problem outside the hands is that stain in the lower part.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you out there who celebrate it. 
Would you mind helping me with these pieces? The first is a Komandirskie. I've checked the Komandirskie thread and it seems ok, but I would like a second opinion as I may have missed something. Does anyone know what that white dial is on the inside of backing (second photo). Some service indicators? I do recognize the symbol of 1MWF. I've just never seen something like that before. Also, there is a bit of discrepancy whether the star is blue on black dials (due to faded red paint), or originally blue painted, or red. Can anyone clarify?
The second is a Vostok for export. The seller says it's a stainless steel casing. I'm just not sure the movement matches with the case.

As always, thank you for your help.





































Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends.
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving to all of you out there who celebrate it.
> Would you mind helping me with these pieces? The first is a Komandirskie. I've checked the Komandirskie thread and it seems ok, but I would like a second opinion as I may have missed something. Does anyone know what that white dial is on the inside of backing (second photo). Some service indicators? I do recognize the symbol of 1MWF. I've just never seen something like that before. Also, there is a bit of discrepancy whether the star is blue on black dials (due to faded red paint), or originally blue painted, or red. Can anyone clarify?
> The second is a Vostok for export. The seller says it's a stainless steel casing. I'm just not sure the movement matches with the case.
> 
> As always, thank you for your help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Komandirskie: I would say the seconds hand is wrong (look at the tail). Crown is questionable.
The image on the inside of the cover is super interesting. Never see this. Looks like someone at ChChZ was practicing or fooling around. It has the image of the ChChZ compas! But how it got there????








Vintage Soviet USSR Wrist Compass watch Vostok KN-1 CHCHZ Tourist work | eBay


Pictures: all the pictures and video you see above are actual.



www.ebay.com





Vostok: wrong crown. I would also question the seconds hand. Did you check the catalogs? In the catalog this dial only shown in chromed and gilded versions. Maybe i am missing a steal variation or maybe it was not listed in the catalogs. The second hand is different in the catalogs though.


----------



## discosmiter

Hi all,
I found this two watches on local ads site...
They look strange to me, afaik buran watches are obe thing, Sputnik are something else and Vostok completely different thing...

Are these watches real or franken?

Thanks for help






























Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk


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## Odessa200

discosmiter said:


> Hi all,
> I found this two watches on local ads site...
> They look strange to me, afaik buran watches are obe thing, Sputnik are something else and Vostok completely different thing...
> 
> Are these watches real or franken?
> 
> Thanks for help
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk


all fake.


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## discosmiter

Odessa200 said:


> all fake.


Thanks for quick answer, could you just help me - did Vostok ever made such watches, and these are just someone's best effort to make a copy of them, or is this completely fantasy watch made from inspiration by someone ....

Sent from my SM-A525F using Tapatalk


----------



## Chascomm

Odessa200 said:


> Komandirskie: I would say the seconds hand is wrong (look at the tail). Crown is questionable.
> The image on the inside of the cover is super interesting. Never see this. Looks like someone at ChChZ was practicing or fooling around. It has the image of the ChChZ compas! But how it got there????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Soviet USSR Wrist Compass watch Vostok KN-1 CHCHZ Tourist work | eBay
> 
> 
> Pictures: all the pictures and video you see above are actual.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok: wrong crown. I would also question the seconds hand. Did you check the catalogs? In the catalog this dial only shown in chromed and gilded versions. Maybe i am missing a steal variation or maybe it was not listed in the catalogs. The second hand is different in the catalogs though.


The Vostok compass was made from a Vostok case with the markings printed on the inside of the back. The presence of those markings in a watch simply means that the back was swapped.


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## Avidfan

Tianlung4028 said:


> Does anyone know what that white dial is on the inside of backing (second photo). Some service indicators? I do recognize the symbol of 1MWF. I've just never seen something like that before.





Odessa200 said:


> The image on the inside of the cover is super interesting. Never see this. Looks like someone at ChChZ was practicing or fooling around. It has the image of the ChChZ compas! But how it got there????


These compass dials printed inside the casebacks of Komandirskie have been seen a number of times before, many of the Vostok compasses used standard watch cases and casebacks, so the question is did it come from the factory like this or has it been changed later? I don't think we'll ever know for sure but Vostok is well known for repurposing spare parts...










(Image from this old thread here)


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## Odessa200

I never new how the compas was made. Never had one. Interesting that they used the backs.


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## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> I never new how the compas was made. Never had one. Interesting that they used the backs.


Here's an interesting example from eBay...it looks like Vostok had spare casebacks from the 1985 Victory Komandirskies so they used them as compass backs...


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## Odessa200

Avidfan said:


> Here's an interesting example from eBay...it looks like Vostok had spare casebacks from the 1985 Victory Komandirskies so they used them as compass backs...
> 
> View attachment 16260363
> 
> View attachment 16260365


Wow. Cool. But basically it clears up the watches in question: they are franken. Having this old flacking paint inside the watch is not such a good idea. It is obviously fixable but removing the paint from the inside of the back.


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## Avidfan

Odessa200 said:


> Wow. Cool. But basically it clears up the watches in question: they are franken. Having this old flacking paint inside the watch is not such a good idea. It is obviously fixable but removing the paint from the inside of the back.


Yep, the paint is easy enough to remove...but it's all interesting just the same


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## UDIVER

Hey guys!

I was eyeing this Nvch-30 and had a few concerns.....

Firstly, does the arrow of the hour hand look to be relumed? it seems to not match the rest of the hands and dial lume color.

It also doesn't show an antimagnetic plate for the movement, I assume I cold also pick one of those up pretty easily...?

The lug width is 22mm, the crystal is thick, the case seems correct, movement seems correct, caseback seems correct.....just the hour hand and plate are the only two things that jump out to me, anything else seem incorrect? thanks!

F


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## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> Wow. Cool. But basically it clears up the watches in question: they are franken. Having this old flacking paint inside the watch is not such a good idea. It is obviously fixable but removing the paint from the inside of the back.


Thank you for the clarification Odessa. A fascinating story, but I think I'll pass on it. Learn something new every day. Could you clarify your opinion on the second hand? I found a source that says that the tails had _either_ the clubbed style or arrow head. Is this source incorrect?








Komandirskie Chistopol | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


I Komandirskie Chistopol sono i progenitori dei più noti Komandirskie con ghiera di fine anni 80' e degli attuali Komandirskie costruiti dalla Vostok




vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org





Thanks again

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## capannelle

Tianlung4028 said:


> Thank you for the clarification Odessa. A fascinating story, but I think I'll pass on it. Learn something new every day. Could you clarify your opinion on the second hand? I found a source that says that the tails had _either_ the clubbed style or arrow head. Is this source incorrect?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Komandirskie Chistopol | Vostok Amphibia CCCP
> 
> 
> I Komandirskie Chistopol sono i progenitori dei più noti Komandirskie con ghiera di fine anni 80' e degli attuali Komandirskie costruiti dalla Vostok
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


in my opinion the source is correct, the site is mine 

The second hand of your watch is correct


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## 979greenwich

I would also rather see a second hand without a tail on that model.


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## Odessa200

capannelle said:


> in my opinion the source is correct, the site is mine
> 
> The second hand of your watch is correct


@capannelle what is the proof that the other tail is right? The catalogs do not show it on the early round watches? Anyone has a new watch like this with docs? My guess that the later square models had these hands and given they fit the caliber and also were used for Komandirskie the watchmakers used to put them on during repairs.

but I would say this is not a big deal. Maybe both are right. If the watch is right in all other aspects and price is right I would did not disqualify just because of the hand tail.


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## skipvel

Curious about this one. Komandirskie does not look like the right spelling. Is it a different way of writing it, or the person writing it spelled it wrong? Looks to be painted on as well as the star but anything is possible. (it's from Ukraine)


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## Brblesh

skipvel said:


> Curious about this one. Komandirskie does not look like the right spelling. Is it a different way of writing it, or the person writing it spelled it wrong? Looks to be painted on as well as the star but anything is possible. (it's from Ukraine)
> View attachment 16261671


Not an expert on watches, but it is definitely misspelled and doesn't look right. If you just count the number of letters, it is actually missing 1 letter.


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## capannelle

Odessa200 said:


> @capannelle what is the proof that the other tail is right? The catalogs do not show it on the early round watches? Anyone has a new watch like this with docs? My guess that the later square models had these hands and given they fit the caliber and also were used for Komandirskie the watchmakers used to put them on during repairs.
> 
> but I would say this is not a big deal. Maybe both are right. If the watch is right in all other aspects and price is right I would did not disqualify just because of the hand tail.


In the 1974 catalog is this Komandirskie with a round case and tailed second hand. I think the first round-case Komandirskie products had the hand without the tail. From a certain point on the second hand changed and they started producing the one with the tail


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## Avidfan

skipvel said:


> Curious about this one. Komandirskie does not look like the right spelling. Is it a different way of writing it, or the person writing it spelled it wrong? Looks to be painted on as well as the star but anything is possible. (it's from Ukraine)
> View attachment 16261671


I think it originally looked like this...


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## Odessa200

capannelle said:


> In the 1974 catalog is this Komandirskie with a round case and tailed second hand. I think the first round-case Komandirskie products had the hand without the tail. From a certain point on the second hand changed and they started producing the one with the tail
> 
> View attachment 16261951


True. This later version is this fancy tail. Let each person decide for himself .


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## skipvel

Avidfan said:


> I think it originally looked like this...


Now looking closer at the dial it does look like the markings below 12 have been erased and painted over when I compare it to your example. It looked kind of 'funny' overall; but I thought if it was a fake they would at least spell it right.


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## Odessa200

skipvel said:


> Now looking closer at the dial it does look like the markings below 12 have been erased and painted over when I compare it to your example. It looked kind of 'funny' overall; but I thought if it was a fake they would at least spell it right.


the dial is definitely fake (just by looking how crookedly the text and the star are done) but what about the misspelling? All is spelled right! The dial reads: Captain’s (Капитанские). It uses cursive letters so maybe this fooled some none native speakers.


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## skipvel

Odessa200 said:


> the dial is definitely fake (just by looking how crookedly the text and the star are done) but what about the misspelling? All is spelled right! The dial reads: Captain’s (Капитанские). It uses cursive letters so maybe this fooled some none native speakers.


Captains instead of Commanders. OK now it makes sense. Learning Russian one word at a time! Thanks Odessa


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## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> the dial is definitely fake (just by looking how crookedly the text and the star are done) but what about the misspelling? All is spelled right! The dial reads: Captain’s (Капитанские). It uses cursive letters so maybe this fooled some none native speakers.


Ah yes, sorry, I didn't read it well, he asked for Komandirskie, I just glanced at it and said it doesn't spell right.
My apologies.


----------



## Brblesh

This Vostok Sputnik seems good to me, but the price is quite high and they are often faked so i need some help and verification from the experts. What do you think?


----------



## walruscolony

Hello all. I'd be very grateful for your thoughts on this raketa perpetual calendar. Curvature of the glass looks right to me but suspiciously good condition?


----------



## capannelle

walruscolony said:


> Hello all. I'd be very grateful for your thoughts on this raketa perpetual calendar. Curvature of the glass looks right to me but suspiciously good condition?
> View attachment 16262939
> View attachment 16262940
> 
> View attachment 16262943
> 
> View attachment 16262947
> 
> 
> View attachment 16262949


Everything seems OK.
This is mine with English writing


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## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> This Vostok Sputnik seems good to me, but the price is quite high and they are often faked so i need some help and verification from the experts. What do you think?
> 
> View attachment 16262921
> View attachment 16262922


replaced balance bridge. Also the crystal is a modern replacement that is a bit too tall and too square. Tye rest is ok.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> replaced balance bridge. Also the crystal is a modern replacement that is a bit too tall and too square. Tye rest is ok.


Oh yes, I see the balance bridge now, thank you. Considering the crystal, I see it quite often replaced on Pobedas and other watches from that age, so that doesn't come as much of a surprise.
I really love these ChChZ Sputniks, but they seem to be a bit hard to come by, at least in good condition.
By the way, I saw one of your posts from 2020 where you mentioned that you would pay 50-100$ for them, but the ones I saw seem to be priced 3x that amount.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Oh yes, I see the balance bridge now, thank you. Considering the crystal, I see it quite often replaced on Pobedas and other watches from that age, so that doesn't come as much of a surprise.
> I really love these ChChZ Sputniks, but they seem to be a bit hard to come by, at least in good condition.
> By the way, I saw one of your posts from 2020 where you mentioned that you would pay 50-100$ for them, but the ones I saw seem to be priced 3x that amount.


Replaced crystal is Ok and expected but it should be of a decent shape and of a correct profile. This one seems a bit too tall and with a square edge. Ask for a side photo. If it is priced as you describe it will not sell fast.


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## Bsw_sc

Came across this piece for sale from a sales app, does this look legit? Seller says it’s an 80’s make


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> Replaced crystal is Ok and expected but it should be of a decent shape and of a correct profile. This one seems a bit too tall and with a square edge. Ask for a side photo. If it is priced as you describe it will not sell fast.


Ah yes, I know what you mean about the tall and square crystal, i have seen such and they do really look out of place on such watches.
Thank you, as always, your help is greatly appreciated


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## elsoldemayo

Bsw_sc said:


> Came across this piece for sale from a sales app, does this look legit? Seller says it’s an 80’s make


Fake dial, modern hands.


----------



## Odessa200

Bsw_sc said:


> Came across this piece for sale from a sales app, does this look legit? Seller says it’s an 80’s make
> View attachment 16263784
> 
> View attachment 16263783
> 
> View attachment 16263782


the watch (Raketa) is from from 80s but the dial and hands are fantasy newly made as far as I know


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## walruscolony

capannelle said:


> Everything seems OK.
> This is mine with English writing


Thank you!

I'm also wondering about these - I've seen a couple of examples like this, but can't find anything similar in any of the catalogues I've been through (without the numbering on dial). Guessing these are frankens? New to this and trying to improve my understanding - thanks everyone.


----------



## capannelle

walruscolony said:


> Thank you!
> 
> I'm also wondering about these - I've seen a couple of examples like this, but can't find anything similar in any of the catalogues I've been through (without the numbering on dial). Guessing these are frankens? New to this and trying to improve my understanding - thanks everyone.
> 
> View attachment 16264602
> 
> 
> [ALLEGARE=completo]16264604[/ALLEGARE]
> [/CITAZIONE]


In my opinion they are dials where part of the writing has been erased


----------



## Odessa200

capannelle said:


> In my opinion they are dials where part of the writing has been erased


100% dials have the missing calendar text


----------



## skipvel

I like commemoratives. The only problem is a lack of official databases on them. How does this one from 1988 look? Celebrates production of the oil fields near ALMETIEVSK (Almetyevsk?). Claimed to be unused and looks OK to me but I'm no expert.


----------



## Balticum

Hello! Just finished cosmetic repair for this 50's Pobeda and although this watch looks very organic and appropriate I began to doubt or such a model existed? In 1953 catalogue with such a dial I found model 112-K, but hands are different and case isn't aluminum gold plated. Any opinion?


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## Odessa200

Balticum said:


> Hello! Just finished cosmetic repair for this 50's Pobeda and although this watch looks very organic and appropriate I began to doubt or such a model existed? In 1953 catalogue with such a dial I found model 112-K, but hands are different and case isn't aluminum gold plated. Any opinion?


very nice looking watch. Correct: not as per catalog but still a nice one! Keep it.


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## Avidfan

skipvel said:


> I like commemoratives. The only problem is a lack of official databases on them. How does this one from 1988 look? Celebrates production of the oil fields near ALMETIEVSK (Almetyevsk?). Claimed to be unused and looks OK to me but I'm no expert.


Tricky because as you say there are no official catalogues for Vostok corporate watches...but basically it looks to be a Amphibia 320234 but with a corporate logo replacing the usual text, and the date 1988 on the dial is right in the correct timeframe to be housed in a 320 case etc., so I would say it's correct...


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## Balticum

Thanks! Yes, I think I will keep it as it is.


----------



## skipvel

Avidfan said:


> Tricky because as you say there are no official catalogues for Vostok corporate watches...but basically it looks to be a Amphibia 320234 but with a corporate logo replacing the usual text, and the date 1988 on the dial is right in the correct timeframe to be housed in a 320 case etc., so I would say it's correct...


Yes, it looked like the right time. If I was designing it would have dark black graphics instead of grey.(it's for an oil company) I was just hoping someone might have seen the dial before. Thanks


----------



## gargos

Hello there!

My girlfriend just bought me a black Raketa Copernic, as she knew my interest in this model. But I am worried that not everything in this watch matches.
It has the 2609.HA movement, the golden hand looks too shiny, the crystal is curved...
What do you think? Franken? Very Franken? Just a bit Franken? 
Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

gargos said:


> Hello there!
> 
> My girlfriend just bought me a black Raketa Copernic, as she knew my interest in this model. But I am worried that not everything in this watch matches.
> It has the 2609.HA movement, the golden hand looks too shiny, the crystal is curved...
> What do you think? Franken? Very Franken? Just a bit Franken?
> Thanks
> 
> View attachment 16267702
> View attachment 16267703
> View attachment 16267704
> View attachment 16267705


it is the gesture that matters! She meant well!
It is pretty franked. 
wrong passport, crown, movement (old HA with beveled edges instead flat HP), modern replica crystal. Did not study the dial/hands.


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## Cyptor

null, sorry


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## gargos

Odessa200 said:


> it is the gesture that matters! She meant well!
> It is pretty franked.
> wrong passport, crown, movement (old HA with beveled edges instead flat HP), modern replica crystal. Did not study the dial/hands.


Thank you for your answer. I know she meant well, but looks like there is not even a single original part from a Copernic 😂


----------



## Brblesh

Hello, ok, I need some help and verification considering this one. The condition seems really really good (that is what bothers me a bit), and the price is a bit high so if I get this one I will have to lay low for a while and stop increasing my collection or my wife will kill me 
To my amateur eye everything looks like it is a pre 1986 civil model. The reset hammer, brass chrono and balance wheel, stamp, 4 digit serial, date font, and the "Poljot US 10 SR" dial seem to all agree on the age. I am not sure whether this one chrono wheel is replaced or it is just the picture and reflection. Also the picture is a bit blurry so I cannot se, but I think the Poljot crown is there on the main body where it is expected on this model.
What is the experts opinion?


----------



## b0fh

do people really fabricate fake poljots???


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends,

Can you help me with this Sputnik? I used Mroatman's website as a guide. I believe the crown has been replaced but that isn't a big deal for me. Are there any issues with the movement? Is there anything that I'm missed?

Thanks!























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


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## Brblesh

b0fh said:


> do people really fabricate fake poljots???


Yes they do, even cheaper watches. Although in my experience these Poljots are more often "Frankens" than completely fake.


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## elsoldemayo

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Can you help me with this Sputnik? I used Mroatman's website as a guide. I believe the crown has been replaced but that isn't a big deal for me. Are there any issues with the movement? Is there anything that I'm missed?
> 
> Thanks!


Crown replaced is the only issue I see as well.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Can you help me with this Sputnik? I used Mroatman's website as a guide. I believe the crown has been replaced but that isn't a big deal for me. Are there any issues with the movement? Is there anything that I'm missed?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Not bad! Wrong crown. Also note that the balance regulator is at it’s limit so if the watch is still running fast you will not be able to slow it down via this method. 
the rest is just fine.


----------



## Odessa200

b0fh said:


> do people really fabricate fake poljots???


absolutely not! Only Goochi watches are faked!


----------



## PiotrS

Brblesh said:


> Hello, ok, I need some help and verification considering this one. The condition seems really really good (that is what bothers me a bit), and the price is a bit high so if I get this one I will have to lay low for a while and stop increasing my collection or my wife will kill me
> To my amateur eye everything looks like it is a pre 1986 civil model. The reset hammer, brass chrono and balance wheel, stamp, 4 digit serial, date font, and the "Poljot US 10 SR" dial seem to all agree on the age. I am not sure whether this one chrono wheel is replaced or it is just the picture and reflection. Also the picture is a bit blurry so I cannot se, but I think the Poljot crown is there on the main body where it is expected on this model.
> What is the experts opinion?
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16270329
> View attachment 16270330
> View attachment 16270331


Hi,
two buttons are steel (this model only chrom) but this good news.








This weehel is change, but so this only parts..

So, the rest is correct, case is good buy if you want 
Overall a nice watch.
What is the price?


----------



## Brblesh

PiotrS said:


> Hi,
> two buttons are steel (this model only chrom) but this good news.
> View attachment 16271728
> 
> This weehel is change, but so this only parts..
> 
> So, the rest is correct, case is good buy if you want
> Overall a nice watch.
> What is the price?


Thank you very very much for the reply. The case looks very good, i don't see anywhere damaged chrome, that is why i am a bit suspicious that it could have been replaced. The price is 400$ and I must see how much VAT i would pay on top of that. I am looking at a few other models in that price range. I don't own a 3133 yet, and i really love them, so i am always on the lookout for them. But the price is quite higher than most other Soviet watches, so i am aiming for that special one


----------



## RobNJ

Like a lot of us, I suspect, I wouldn't turn down a nice Rodina. This isn't it - the watch is missing its automatic mechanism, so, no.

But in the interest of knowledge, let me ask about the dial. Especially given the prevalence of other Rodina reproduction dials out there, a dial this clean is hugely suspicious to me. And yet I can't find known examples of this one as a reproduction, nor can I spot a "tell" revealing it as fake. Can you, or am I being paranoid?

A final data point: there was a 2017 post in which a super-clean Rodina dial of this type was judged as legit; that doesn't mean it was: Rodina--original or franken?


----------



## Odessa200

RobNJ said:


> Like a lot of us, I suspect, I wouldn't turn down a nice Rodina. This isn't it - the watch is missing its automatic mechanism, so, no.
> 
> But in the interest of knowledge, let me ask about the dial. Especially given the prevalence of other Rodina reproduction dials out there, a dial this clean is hugely suspicious to me. And yet I can't find known examples of this one as a reproduction, nor can I spot a "tell" revealing it as fake. Can you, or am I being paranoid?
> 
> A final data point: there was a 2017 post in which a super-clean Rodina dial of this type was judged as legit; that doesn't mean it was: Rodina--original or franken?
> 
> View attachment 16273664


looks legit to me.


----------



## Brblesh

What about this P. Buhre? The dial, hands and movement seem original to me (found some pictures from collections to compare). With this case, is it one of the cheaper models made for wider Russian market, or is it something Frankened?























Here are the images I have found from the collection (the left one has the same dial, and the right one is has the same hands - they can be seen on multiple models form the collection)


----------



## RobNJ

Odessa200 said:


> looks legit to me.


It does look that way, and the dial is not on offer at...well, let's say the reproduction site you linked on the redial database thread. I'm still feeling that vigilance is warranted.


----------



## system11

Not a question but a statement.

There are now so many franken Raketa Copernicus watches, they possibly outnumber every other type of watch ever built.


----------



## system11

Any idea if this is legitimate or not? Some parts seem quite rough and others seem much better than redials you tend to see.


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> Any idea if this is legitimate or not? Some parts seem quite rough and others seem much better than redials you tend to see.
> View attachment 16281603


Never seen like this before. I would say: dial is repainted


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> Not a question but a statement.
> 
> There are now so many franken Raketa Copernicus watches, they possibly outnumber every other type of watch ever built.


I would same about fake 3133 watches!


----------



## gp20

Hello everyone, i'm looking for a copernic watch and I found an affordable one... But i have a doubt about the crown of this watch. I don't have the movement picture... What do you think about it ?


----------



## 979greenwich

The crown should have black coating, it was probably taken from a chromed version of the Copernic.


----------



## system11

Are stepped cases a common Raketa thing? All of mine from that era are rounded bezel.


----------



## Odessa200

system11 said:


> Are stepped cases a common Raketa thing? All of mine from that era are rounded bezel.


No, not common. Just this model and maybe some more but this is the most popular model.


----------



## gp20

979greenwich said:


> The crown should have black coating, it was probably taken from a chromed version of the Copernic.


Ok the movement is 2609 HP... but bad crown, so legit or franken ?


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends,

Can you give me a hand with this Komandirskie? I've used Mroatman's website and the Komandirskie thread, but would like a second opinion as I may have missed something. I believe it's legit, but am less confident in the movement.

Thanks
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Ok the movement is 2609 HP... but bad crown, so legit or franken ?


Have you seen the photo of the movement? Or at least the back of the watch? The crystal does not look that right to me. I would like to see a plain photo from the side. Not angled.
Then compare the code of the watch from the passport to the code in the catalog. Different. If the watch was used so the crown and crystal needed a replacement I doubt the passport would be from same watch… very rarely this happens.


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends,
> 
> Can you give me a hand with this Komandirskie? I've used Mroatman's website and the Komandirskie thread, but would like a second opinion as I may have missed something. I believe it's legit, but am less confident in the movement.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk



I do not see any issues. Good watch


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello friends.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the Komandirskie. Can you help me with this Poljot? The seller lists this as an eye of "Sauron" and I just found it interesting. I've used Mroatman's website as a guide for the dial/hands/crown but I'm blind on the movement. Also, can anyone translate the inscription?

Thanks!























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16282685
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen the photo of the movement? Or at least the back of the watch? The crystal does not look that right to me. I would like to see a plain photo from the side. Not angled.
> Then compare the code of the watch from the passport to the code in the catalog. Different. If the watch was used so the crown and crystal needed a replacement I doubt the passport would be from same watch… very rarely this happens.


You're right for the code of the watch is different from the passport. And all black copernic have the same code ? It doesn't change from one year to the next ?
The price was too good (8000rub) for a clean + passport black Copernic...
A few more pics :


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello friends.
> 
> Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the Komandirskie. Can you help me with this Poljot? The seller lists this as an eye of "Sauron" and I just found it interesting. I've used Mroatman's website as a guide for the dial/hands/crown but I'm blind on the movement. Also, can anyone translate the inscription?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


movement is good. Translation is ‘for the memory from Initials to Initials’.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> You're right for the code of the watch is different from the passport. And all black copernic have the same code ? It doesn't change from one year to the next ?
> The price was too good (8000rub) for a clean + passport black Copernic...
> A few more pics :


Movement is right. This is my crystal. You decide i


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> Movement is right. This is my crystal. You decide i


I decide to not buy it, too many risks... I saw a Wind Rose Raketa at 45$ and i think i will take it, everything seems ok.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> I decide to not sell it, too many risks... I saw a Wind Rose Raketa at 45$ and i think i will take it, everything seems ok.


rose is fine but the crystal seems to have cracks. It happens with old plastic….


----------



## palletwheel

Can someone please provide some feedback on this Stolichnie? Given the condition of the dial I'm pretty sure it's not redialed, one of the more common issues, and the rest seems ok, just not 100% sure about the caseback as I don't know if these were engraved or not. Many thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Can someone please provide some feedback on this Stolichnie? Given the condition of the dial I'm pretty sure it's not redialed, one of the more common issues, and the rest seems ok, just not 100% sure about the caseback as I don't know if these were engraved or not. Many thanks!



All is correct. Hands look relumed but nicely done


----------



## palletwheel

I think this is a correct second generation Vostok Precision, but given the complexity I thought it would be a good idea to garner opinions in case I missed something. Many thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

Looks good!


----------



## palletwheel

I found this 34K that seems to look good. Opinions would be appreciated. One interestingly thing I noticed is that the curb regulator lever is a bit fancier, thicker with a kind of arrow end. Usually on other 1MChZ the lever is simple and straight. Any comments on that too would be appreciated.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I found this 34K that seems to look good. Opinions would be appreciated. One interestingly thing I noticed is that the curb regulator lever is a bit fancier, thicker with a kind of arrow end. Usually on other 1MChZ the lever is simple and straight. Any comments on that too would be appreciated.


looks very nice. All correct as far as I can see. I am not 100% sure about the crown (looks quite new) but still a nice watch


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> looks very nice. All correct as far as I can see. I am not 100% sure about the crown (looks quite new) but still a nice watch


Thanks very much as always. Yes, I spent some time staring at that crown, that's typically one of those things that get replaced. But after looking at these references I became convinced it was at least of the right type, and I have seen interestingly enough when they are large like this they can survive nicely, though it's entirely possible it's from a donor as the case itself has decent wear.






Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## Brblesh

Hello, can someone tell me their opinion on these two Kirovskie Type-1? Things i notice by researching are the crowns, the wheels on the first one, and i am not sure about the 1MChZ stamp on the second one (doesn't it look kinda crude, like engraved later?). I am not really familiar with the cases and the rest. What do you think?

First one:






















Second one:


----------



## palletwheel

Brblesh said:


> Hello, can someone tell me their opinion on these two Kirovskie Type-1? Things i notice by researching are the crowns, the wheels on the first one, and i am not sure about the 1MChZ stamp on the second one (doesn't it look kinda crude, like engraved later?). I am not really familiar with the cases and the rest. What do you think?
> 
> First one:
> 
> 
> View attachment 16289225
> View attachment 16289226
> View attachment 16289227
> 
> 
> Second one:
> 
> View attachment 16289233
> View attachment 16289234
> View attachment 16289232


Here is your Type 1 authentication kit:









The Military Kirovskie Type-1 K-43


Fans of Soviet watches always encounter descriptions such as ¨Soviet military watch¨ or ¨Russian army wristwatch¨ in sales ads, articles on the topic, etc. Unfortunately, I believe that in 99%




www.safonagastrocrono.club












Type-1 Movement study...


Recently, in an effort to advance our knowledge of the "type-1" 1mwf movement, I purchased a bundle of non-functional movements for the purpose of examination. There are six movements in total, I have disassembled them all, and digitized images of the relevant components (whenever present). The...




www.watchuseek.com





The short answer, none of them are correct.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here is your Type 1 authentication kit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Military Kirovskie Type-1 K-43
> 
> 
> Fans of Soviet watches always encounter descriptions such as ¨Soviet military watch¨ or ¨Russian army wristwatch¨ in sales ads, articles on the topic, etc. Unfortunately, I believe that in 99%
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.safonagastrocrono.club
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Type-1 Movement study...
> 
> 
> Recently, in an effort to advance our knowledge of the "type-1" 1mwf movement, I purchased a bundle of non-functional movements for the purpose of examination. There are six movements in total, I have disassembled them all, and digitized images of the relevant components (whenever present). The...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The short answer, none of them are correct.


not surprisingly… . I have about a dozen. Most of them have something ‘wrong’. So many years these watches were used and abused. Most of them are a collection of many watches…. In some cases, I think this is acceptable. Just find what watch speaks to you and has a price you are willing to spend and buy it. Do not think ‘I am buying an all correct Type 1’. Think ‘I am buying a watch with history and I like it’.


----------



## Brblesh

Thank you very very much for the reply and guides on one place. I was using those, but i missed some things, there is much info and i am new to it. Also i really don't know how i missed that one about the 40-41 1Mchz stamp, i was looking at that pic, feel a bit stupid now.

Yes, exactly like Odessa wrote, i don't mind if some parts have been replaced in Type-1 watches, i really find it acceptable.
So my question would more be, if the two watches i posted are indeed 1MChZ Type-1 from the year 1939. and 1941. with some parts replaced or are they a complete mish-mash?

Type-1s seem to be my favorite watches. I love them, ofcourse mostly for their incredible history, but i also really love their look.
I hope you guys don't mind if i post some more of those here.


----------



## palletwheel

Brblesh said:


> Thank you very very much for the reply and guides on one place. I was using those, but i missed some things, there is much info and i am new to it. Also i really don't know how i missed that one about the 40-41 1Mchz stamp, i was looking at that pic, feel a bit stupid now.
> 
> Yes, exactly like Odessa wrote, i don't mind if some parts have been replaced in Type-1 watches, i really find it acceptable.
> So my question would more be, if the two watches i posted are indeed 1MChZ Type-1 from the year 1939. and 1941. with some parts replaced or are they a complete mish-mash?
> 
> Type-1s seem to be my favorite watches. I love them, ofcourse mostly for their incredible history, but i also really love their look.
> I hope you guys don't mind if i post some more of those here.


I'll differ a little from Odessa in that I think you can get right ones, but its hard and requires lots of study and luck and is a subject in and of itself. It also won't be cheap. On the other hand it might be better to say you might be able to _construct_ a correct one if you learn enough, source enough parts, and have the skills to put it all together. And in truth, "right" is a relative term. We've come to agree that "correct" is _after_ they got service dials in the 50s. These were radium lumed so rare is the survivor that has the truly _original_ dial and hands. Really, if you found such a thing, it could kill you. So as Odessa said one should approach this as informed history. In terms of personal collecting, I would leave a true lumed 30s example for a museum with a hazmat suit. I'll post mine here as I think it's actually "correct" so you can see. BTW, even after all these years it still was radiating a little with the cover off, though it would be considered safe. So if you want these make sure you get a Geiger counter. Now even here, while everything seems of one piece, and the movement has the correct 1MWF stamp for 1936-38, it has no date and no one knows why some are undated like this. So there you go, there's always something to research.


----------



## Brblesh

palletwheel said:


> I'll differ a little from Odessa in that I think you can get right ones, but its hard and requires lots of study and luck and is a subject in and of itself. It also won't be cheap. On the other hand it might be better to say you might be able to _construct_ a correct one if you learn enough, source enough parts, and have the skills to put it all together. And in truth, "right" is a relative term. We've come to agree that "correct" is _after_ they got service dials in the 50s. These were radium lumed so rare is the survivor that has the truly _original_ dial and hands. Really, if you found such a thing, it could kill you. So as Odessa said one should approach this as informed history. In terms of personal collecting, I would leave a true lumed 30s example for a museum with a hazmat suit. I'll post mine here as I think it's actually "correct" so you can see. BTW, even after all these years it still was radiating a little with the cover off, though it would be considered safe. So if you want these make sure you get a Geiger counter. Now even here, while everything seems of one piece, and the movement has the correct 1MWF stamp for 1936-38, it has no date and no one knows why some are undated like this. So there you go, there's always something to research.


Ofcourse all original would be incredible, but i think that it is expected for some parts to be replaced during the years. For me it would be worse for a watch to be assembled from different watches but "correct" parts.

So there is still some residual radiation on your watch although the lume has been removed?

Can you help me out, if i got it right about the two watches i posted? The first one, wrong crown, wheels, ballance bridge. The second one crown and bridges?
I appologize for asking a lot of questions, i do research quite a lot, but i need help and feedback and don't know anyone personaly whom i can ask.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you very very much for the reply and guides on one place. I was using those, but i missed some things, there is much info and i am new to it. Also i really don't know how i missed that one about the 40-41 1Mchz stamp, i was looking at that pic, feel a bit stupid now.
> 
> Yes, exactly like Odessa wrote, i don't mind if some parts have been replaced in Type-1 watches, i really find it acceptable.
> So my question would more be, if the two watches i posted are indeed 1MChZ Type-1 from the year 1939. and 1941. with some parts replaced or are they a complete mish-mash?
> 
> Type-1s seem to be my favorite watches. I love them, ofcourse mostly for their incredible history, but i also really love their look.
> I hope you guys don't mind if i post some more of those here.



this is what I see.

1st: made in 1939. wrong case (see the shape of the lugs, 2nd one has the correct for the 1st factory), wrong crown, balance bridge has different waves so probably replaced, ratchet and winding wheels should be flat (like the 2nd watch). Dial is a vintage reprint.

2nd watch: made in 1941, wrong crown, again reprinted dial.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is what I see.
> 
> 1st: made in 1939. wrong case (see the shape of the lugs, 2nd one has the correct for the 1st factory), wrong crown, balance bridge has different waves so probably replaced, ratchet and winding wheels should be flat (like the 2nd watch). Dial is a vintage reprint.
> 
> 2nd watch: made in 1941, wrong crown, again reprinted dial.


Thank you very much for the detailed info, this helps me decide about those 2, but also for future choices.
Can i ask about the dial reprints? I see a really lot dials that look the same like those to me, even some in collections. Is it those 50's service dials Palletwheel mentioned a few posts above which are considered "right"?


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Thank you very much for the detailed info, this helps me decide about those 2, but also for future choices.
> Can i ask about the dial reprints? I see a really lot dials that look the same like those to me, even some in collections. Is it those 50's service dials Palletwheel mentioned a few posts above which are considered "right"?


I consider them right. Yes, there are the service ‘generic’ dials from 50s.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> I consider them right. Yes, there are the service ‘generic’ dials from 50s.


Number 2 doesn't seem that bad then.

I have one more interesting. If i got it right, this one has wrong ratchet wheel, and also the vintage redial. Rest seems fine to me?


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Number 2 doesn't seem that bad then.
> 
> I have one more interesting. If i got it right, this one has wrong ratchet wheel, and also the vintage redial. Rest seems fine to me?
> 
> View attachment 16293714
> View attachment 16293715


yes. This is a 7 jewels from 1938… old one


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is what I see.
> 
> 1st: made in 1939. wrong case (see the shape of the lugs, 2nd one has the correct for the 1st factory), wrong crown, balance bridge has different waves so probably replaced, ratchet and winding wheels should be flat (like the 2nd watch). Dial is a vintage reprint.
> 
> 2nd watch: made in 1941, wrong crown, again reprinted dial.


If i can just ask, so i know for future, when you said the lugs and case aren't right for 1st factory, does that mean they have been used in 2nd or Chistopol, or not at all?


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> If i can just ask, so i know for future, when you said the lugs and case aren't right for 1st factory, does that mean they have been used in 2nd or Chistopol, or not at all?


the 1mchz had these fancy shaped lug tube. I am not sure how to tell apart other factories…


----------



## f00f

Does anyone know if Etsy seller "MadeInUSSRStudio" (or any ebay or Etsy seller) is legit? I'm very new to watches and thinking of picking up a Vostok Precision 2809, but not really sure where to start, what to look for, or what I should expect to pay. I'd love to find one in decent enough shape that I could use it regularly. Thanks!


----------



## palletwheel

f00f said:


> Does anyone know if Etsy seller "MadeInUSSRStudio" (or any ebay or Etsy seller) is legit? I'm very new to watches and thinking of picking up a Vostok Precision 2809, but not really sure where to start, what to look for, or what I should expect to pay. I'd love to find one in decent enough shape that I could use it regularly. Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 16297086
> 
> View attachment 16297088
> 
> View attachment 16297087


Start by studying these threads assiduously:









three generations of Vostok Precision


I recently started a thread about some obscure details of Vostok Precision movement, which quickly moved to a discussion on how to distinguish a VP from a mule or franken. Honestly, I'm never sure, but some general trends still exist and today I made some photos to illustrate them. The first...




www.watchuseek.com













two Vostok 2809 puzzles


I have been collecting Vostok 2809 for two years and the more I learn about it, the more puzzled I am. A few things seem relatively established - e.g. the movements with „ЧЧЗ" logo are older than the ones with „В" logo; the cases with 18 mm lugs are newer than the ones with 16 mm lugs and should...




www.watchuseek.com













Anatomy of the Vostok 2809


In this post I analyse a Vostok 2809A movement. There are several versions of the movement 2809. https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/two-vostok-2809-puzzles-733380.html and https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/three-generations-vostok-precision-740114.html give details about some of them. It is even...




www.watchuseek.com













Vostok Precision


Today, I want to show you one of my favourite watches built in the Soviet Union, the Vostok Precision. It is probably the first watch with chronometer certification manufactured for use by the…




www.safonagastrocrono.club










Vostok | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Vostok, Boctok, Восток, Wostok, Amphibia, Amphibian, Precision, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





I do not believe yours is correct. First it should be a 3rd generation 2809A movement, and it's not clear from your photo if the little triangular bridge in the upper left corner of your photo is engraved with the correct number (it should say 2809A). Also the back cover is wrong and should also say 2809A. Those are the obvious things, there may be more.

Also I would discourage you from trying to use any of these as true daily wear. While you can absolutely enjoy wearing them from time to time if serviced properly, remember that wearing any watch implies wear which is slow destruction. The ratchet wheel particularly on these is under lots of stress and the teeth can break off, and given you can't get new parts, don't necessarily keep great time, though depending on what you find they can be surprisingly ok. I approach them as historical artifacts one can carefully, and accepting the hazards, gently enjoy wearing maybe once a month.


----------



## Vympel222

Hi there,

These two look to good to be true. Is it a franken/fake?

Cheers


----------



## Odessa200

Vympel222 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> These two look to good to be true. Is it a franken/fake?
> 
> Cheers


welcome. Of course this is a fake one.


----------



## f00f

palletwheel said:


> I do not believe yours is correct. First it should be a 3rd generation 2809A movement, and it's not clear from your photo if the little triangular bridge in the upper left corner of your photo is engraved with the correct number (it should say 2809A). Also the back cover is wrong and should also say 2809A. Those are the obvious things, there may be more.
> 
> Also I would discourage you from trying to use any of these as true daily wear. While you can absolutely enjoy wearing them from time to time if serviced properly, remember that wearing any watch implies wear which is slow destruction. The ratchet wheel particularly on these is under lots of stress and the teeth can break off, and given you can't get new parts, don't necessarily keep great time, though depending on what you find they can be surprisingly ok. I approach them as historical artifacts one can carefully, and accepting the hazards, gently enjoy wearing maybe once a month.


Thank you so much! I'll be sure to check those out. And I appreciate the recommendation, even it's a bit disappointing. I have tiny wrists and really appreciate the look of these little watches, but I guess it makes sense that watches this old might not make the best choice for daily wear.


----------



## palletwheel

f00f said:


> Thank you so much! I'll be sure to check those out. And I appreciate the recommendation, even it's a bit disappointing. I have tiny wrists and really appreciate the look of these little watches, but I guess it makes sense that watches this old might not make the best choice for daily wear.


Start seriously collecting and you'll be up to 31 watches in no time! Then you can wear one a day 😁 Better yet, learn how to service them yourself and you'll always keep them running and keep costs down. This is a real hobby. Unfortunately I personally haven't managed the second part, just not enough time to learn, but its still good advice to do that too if you can.


----------



## steros

Has this dial likely been relumed? I think it looks ok but isn’t the lume quite green?


----------



## 979greenwich

If it was relumed, it was done a long time ago, since the lume is cracked.
Forget the lume, the hands are wrong.


----------



## N I K O L A I

Mega-rare Strela 3017 chrono or a fantasy watch, anybody? Including the caliber shot for completeness, although would not be relevant and the dial, obviously, would be the selling point. Sorry for the poor photo quality, but that's all I have.


----------



## Chascomm

N I K O L A I said:


> Mega-rare Strela 3017 chrono or a fantasy watch, anybody? Including the caliber shot for completeness, although would not be relevant and the dial, obviously, would be the selling point. Sorry for the poor photo quality, but that's all I have.
> View attachment 16304317
> 
> View attachment 16304328
> View attachment 16304329


It’s a fantasy dial. There were many of these coming out of Germany back in the early 2000s iirc.


----------



## gp20

Another Copernic, another doubt (about the crown again and dials?)...


----------



## 979greenwich

Replaced balance bridge. Rest probably ok.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Replaced balance bridge. Rest probably ok.


agree


----------



## Xqlusive

Franken or not, looking for as original as possible

1. Blue Version, Flat crown
2. Blue version, Domed crown
3. Blue version, Flat crown, antimagnetic
4. blue version, Flat Crown
5. Blue Version, Flat Crown, brass second hand, New dial and lumen?
6. Blue version, Domed crown, worn out lumen hands and bezel.

Your help is appreciated!


----------



## 979greenwich

Xqlusive said:


> Franken or not, looking for as original as possible
> 
> 1. Blue Version, Flat crown
> 2. Blue version, Domed crown
> 3. Blue version, Flat crown, antimagnetic
> 4. blue version, Flat Crown
> 5. Blue Version, Flat Crown, brass second hand, New dial and lumen?
> 6. Blue version, Domed crown, worn out lumen hands and bezel.
> 
> Your help is appreciated!


One at a time, comrade 

1. reproduction dial, move on
2. OK but expensive. Looks the best one among the six.
3. replaced balance
4. glass replaced, not 100 % sure about the crown
5. reproduction dial, move on
6. dirty movement, probably needs service, not sure about the second hand


----------



## Xqlusive

979greenwich said:


> One at a time, comrade
> 
> 1. reproduction dial, move on
> 2. OK but expensive. Looks the best one among the six.
> 3. replaced balance
> 4. glass replaced, not 100 % sure about the crown
> 5. reproduction dial, move on
> 6. dirty movement, probably needs service, not sure about the second hand


Thanks mate! Will try to be more patience but awesome feedback for the minor details i tend to miss


----------



## 979greenwich

Xqlusive said:


> Thanks mate! Will try to be more patience but awesome feedback for the minor details i tend to miss


No problem. Here are mine, maybe it helps:
pichost


----------



## Xqlusive

Cool collection! Any plans of expanding it with an 300m version? (prices are crazy high though)


----------



## 979greenwich

Sure, if I find one for 100 $, or win the lottery, or hell freezes over, whichever comes first.


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

979greenwich said:


> Sure, if I find one for 100 $, or win the lottery, or hell freezes over, whichever comes first.


Still learning the geek speak here, and at the probable risk of sounding very stupid - are the cases in your photo all what are referred to as “cushion cases”?


----------



## 979greenwich

Yes, or tonneau, barrel or bochka.


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

979greenwich said:


> Yes, or tonneau, barrel or bochka.


Thankee kind sir - bochka sounds like the kind of word I would use for whatever the latest current stroke of genius is ;-)


----------



## Brblesh

979greenwich said:


> One at a time, comrade
> 
> 1. reproduction dial, move on
> 2. OK but expensive. Looks the best one among the six.
> 3. replaced balance
> 4. glass replaced, not 100 % sure about the crown
> 5. reproduction dial, move on
> 6. dirty movement, probably needs service, not sure about the second hand


If i can pitch in with a question about the reproduction dials on those amphibias, how do you spot them the easiest, is it by the hour marks?
Would this one also be a reproduction dial?


----------



## 979greenwich

Brblesh said:


> If i can pitch in with a question about the fake dials on those amphibias, how do you spot them the easiest, is it by the hour marks?
> Would this one also be a fake dial?
> View attachment 16316031


This dial looks fine to me.
The difference is that the reproduction ones look too new and shiny, especially the gilded indices. The letters are also a bit different and more sharp.


----------



## Brblesh

979greenwich said:


> This dial looks fine to me.
> The difference is that the reproduction ones look too new and shiny, especially the gilded indices. The letters are also a bit different and more sharp.


Thank you for the very fast reply and advice. And yes the indices is what i meant, English is not my first language, so i am missing some words sometimes


----------



## Ligavesh

Merry Christmass!

Did this dial come with this case or should it be a gilded one, i.e. it's a franken?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Merry Christmass!
> 
> Did this dial come with this case or should it be a gilded one, i.e. it's a franken?
> 
> View attachment 16319813
> 
> 
> View attachment 16319814


Looks right except maybe the crown.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Looks right except maybe the crown.
> View attachment 16320104


Thanks Odessa; yeah, the crown has probably been replaced. While you're here, what would be a realistic price approximately for such a Vostok Gagarin (NOS, in a box):









?


----------



## 979greenwich

Ligavesh said:


> Merry Christmass!
> 
> Did this dial come with this case or should it be a gilded one, i.e. it's a franken?
> 
> View attachment 16319813
> 
> 
> View attachment 16319814


This was mine. Do compare, the crown looks fine to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Thanks Odessa; yeah, the crown has probably been replaced. While you're here, what would be a realistic price approximately for such a Vostok Gagarin (NOS, in a box):
> 
> View attachment 16320199
> 
> ?


250-300$.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> 250-300$.


thanks -the guy is asking for significantly more - on account of it being rare (which it is, I couldn't find one like that in such a condition)... I'll see if I can take the price down... on the other hand, he's offering me a 31659 for a relatively low price- I could re-sell that (already have the model) for a profit which would make the Gagarin's price more bearable...


----------



## Vympel222

Merry Christmas!

How does this one look to you? What would be a legit price?

Thank you very much!


----------



## Brblesh

Again an old Kirovskie Type-1.
Most questions i have are be about the dial. I don't see many black ones, is it genuine? Also the case is of a marriage watch, but the dial has a wristwatch orientation...


----------



## Odessa200

Vympel222 said:


> Merry Christmas!
> 
> How does this one look to you? What would be a legit price?
> 
> Thank you very much!
> View attachment 16321887
> 
> View attachment 16321890
> 
> View attachment 16321889
> 
> View attachment 16321888


just the crown is wrong.


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Again an old Kirovskie Type-1.
> Most questions i have are be about the dial. I don't see many black ones, is it genuine? Also the case is of a marriage watch, but the dial has a wristwatch orientation...
> 
> View attachment 16322096
> View attachment 16322097


I think it is a fake dial.


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> I think it is a fake dial.


Thank you. Well, that would explain everything


----------



## gp20

The guy says it's 2623h and doesn't want to open again the watch to take other pics...

Is it a 2623h ? I can't see any movement number... The glass was replaced i think...


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> The guy says it's 2623h and doesn't want to open again the watch to take other pics...
> 
> Is it a 2623h ? I can't see any movement number... The glass was replaced i think...


Impossible to tell cause they all look same except the stamp. Please ask the guy to sell you a photo showing hands at 7 or 9 or any odd hour and showing a half an hour (for example 8:30). At least we will know if the movement is a 24h movement.


----------



## Ligavesh

Doea this look like a relumed Okean or legit? Or is it hard to tell from one photo (that's all I've got):










?


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> Impossible to tell cause they all look same except the stamp. Please ask the guy to sell you a photo showing hands at 7 or 9 or any odd hour and showing a half an hour (for example 8:30). At least we will know if the movement is a 24h movement.


Thank you, but the seller doesn't want to return a photo and in addition increased the price by 1300 rubles. So, I give up.


----------



## MattBrace

Ligavesh said:


> Doea this look like a relumed Okean or legit? Or is it hard to tell from one photo (that's all I've got):
> 
> View attachment 16324910
> 
> 
> ?


Lume work looks original and consistent. 

Cheers...


----------



## watchnoobie2553

Hello,
I've been trying to find a Raketa Copernicus and have found a few options that I think are authentic, but I'm a novice and still need expertise in verifying the listings.

I was hoping someone could help me out and take a look at the few listed below and let me know what you think. Are they fakes/frankens? Are the listed prices fair in the current market? Also any tips on buying this watch or vintage watches in general would be greatly appreciated.


1. Vintage soviet watch Raketa black Copernicus Copernic Kopernik, USSR, 1980s
2. Soviet watch, Raketa Copernicus (Kopernik) watch
3. Vintage rare Soviet black Copernicus wrist watch MOON design #118
4. RAKETA KOPERNIK Vintage 80s made in USSR 

Thanks!


----------



## speedyyouri

I love the style of the dial, classy, but i cant find any similar dial on the internet.

Is this watch frankened?
Is there any way to determine a date? (i see it looks like having a relative low serial number)
Could it be that there was any gold plating going on?
Is it worth it restoring to original condition?


----------



## Odessa200

speedyyouri said:


> View attachment 16327448
> 
> View attachment 16327450
> 
> View attachment 16327449
> View attachment 16327453
> 
> View attachment 16327447
> 
> 
> I love the style of the dial, classy, but i cant find any similar dial on the internet.
> 
> Is this watch frankened?
> Is there any way to determine a date? (i see it looks like having a relative low serial number)
> Could it be that there was any gold plating going on?
> Is it worth it restoring to original condition?


All is correct as far as I see. It was made between 1958 and 1962. This watch was never gold plated (just hour marks on the dial and hands are gold plated). These watches rarely fetch more than 50$ Your watch just needs a bit of a dial clean and that is it (aside from the service). I would pay about 50$ for it. Doing any sort of additional restoration (re chroming for example) is financially not justified. You can find an original case in much better condition for a few $…


----------



## speedyyouri

Odessa200 said:


> All is correct as far as I see. It was made between 1958 and 1962. This watch was never gold plated (just hour marks on the dial and hands are gold plated). These watches rarely fetch more than 50$ Your watch just needs a bit of a dial clean and that is it (aside from the service). I would pay about 50$ for it. Doing any sort of additional restoration (re chroming for example) is financially not justified. You can find an original case in much better condition for a few $…



Thanks for helping out an amateur, I can get it for 25 Euro in the same village i live in. lovely detail that it seems all original for this age.


----------



## Odessa200

speedyyouri said:


> Thanks for helping out an amateur, I can get it for 25 Euro in the same village i live in. lovely detail that it seems all original for this age.


this is a good price. Grab it.


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> You can find an original case in much better condition for a few $…


Where? I'd need it for some of my old-timers... 😅


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Where? I'd need it for some of my old-timers... 😅


Look at other watches for sale and pay attention to the cases. They are all quite cheep. Buy and do a switch (move your watch in the new case). Then sell the inferior one. You will probably loose a few $ but this is a price for your new better case. . This is the fastest way!


----------



## Brblesh

Does anyone know something about this watch?
Raketa Admiral Kuznetsov 24h.
I know about the ship and what the watch should commemorate, but i cannot find it in catalogues or any reliable source. I have seen some others with the same dial but black bezel...


----------



## 27ballscs

Hi everyone, I'm a bit obsessed with the Raketa Copernicus watches with the green dials and red hand. I've found a few listings but so far they all look questionable based on what I've seen people saying to look for, and since I have no experience identifying watches I thought it'd be worth seeing what yall think. Here are a few:
1.  2. 3 

If you have a legit Copernicus I could use to compare, please drop a pic. Thanks


----------



## palletwheel

27ballscs said:


> Hi everyone, I'm a bit obsessed with the Raketa Copernicus watches with the green dials and red hand. I've found a few listings but so far they all look questionable based on what I've seen people saying to look for, and since I have no experience identifying watches I thought it'd be worth seeing what yall think. Here are a few:
> 1.  2. 3
> 
> If you have a legit Copernicus I could use to compare, please drop a pic. Thanks


These are fake. Look at these:





__





Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com










Raketa | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Petrodvorets, Raketa, Pakema, Atom, Perpetual Caldenar, World Time, Polar, 24-hour, Ракета, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com





Note that the theme of the case design is that of a collapsed hand held telescope. So the crystal is square and set into a stepped bezel. The theme also extends to the small crown.


----------



## twd_2003

would anyone happen to know if this Slavs is legit or a Franken? The bezel looks quite different from the other Slava skeletons I’ve seen online


----------



## Odessa200

twd_2003 said:


> View attachment 16335065
> 
> would anyone happen to know if this Slavs is legit or a Franken? The bezel looks quite different from the other Slava skeletons I’ve seen online


all Slava skeletons are franken. Bezel is the least of the problem. Same as the shape of the hour and minute hands (one is tapered and another squre), the paint for Slava hands should be inside the hand window (not covering the hand). But all these are small issues: The watch is missing a dial


----------



## duodeviginti

I am on the hunt for a Slava medical watch in good quality - doesn't have to be NOS. There is this one currently posted to etsy: link. And then these two on the Italian ebay: link 1 and link 2.

Any insight onto why the huge price difference between these three watches? And any advice in general for finding a Slava medical watch?


----------



## Odessa200

duodeviginti said:


> I am on the hunt for a Slava medical watch in good quality - doesn't have to be NOS. There is this one currently posted to etsy: link. And then these two on the Italian ebay: link 1 and link 2.
> 
> Any insight onto why the huge price difference between these three watches? And any advice in general for finding a Slava medical watch?


the 1st one has fake dial. The price should be around 100) for this fake.

the other 2 are insanely expensive! The watches are correct except one of them has incorrect ‘papers’. Why they hace a big price difference? Who knows… I think a fair price would be 350$ but no one is selling and many people are looking to buy so the price climbs up.


----------



## duodeviginti

Odessa200 said:


> the 1st one has fake dial. Hence it is so cheep.
> the other 2 are insanely expensive! The last 2 watches are correct except one of them has incorrect ‘papers’.


I am new to the grey market watching purchasing game. Could you elaborate on what clued you into the etsy watch having a fake dial? To me it there appears to be a discrepancy between the outer bezel depth and the main dial. Also the hands dont have the inner black. 

I am just starting my hunt for this watch - what do you think is a good fair price?


----------



## Odessa200

duodeviginti said:


> I am new to the grey market watching purchasing game. Could you elaborate on what clued you into the etsy watch having a fake dial? To me it there appears to be a discrepancy between the outer bezel depth and the main dial. Also the hands dont have the inner black.
> 
> I am just starting my hunt for this watch - what do you think is a good fair price?


I would say a fair value is 350$.
What hinted me that the etsy watch is fake? Lets see if you can spot the fake between these 2 images. One is the etsy watch. This is just 1 obvious spot (letter E). Many other issues with this dial can be pointed out. You are smart to ask for an advice here given you are just starting this watch journey. I would also advise to ask the sellers. Many try to cheat but when asked directly ‘is this a fully authentic watch, with a real dial?’ will confess


----------



## duodeviginti

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16336743
> 
> View attachment 16336744
> 
> 
> 
> I would say a fair value is 350$.
> What hinted me that the etsy watch is fake? Lets see if you can spot the fake between these 2 images. One is the etsy watch. This is just 1 obvious spot (letter E). Many other issues with this dial can be pointed out. You are smart to ask for an advice here given you are just starting this watch journey. I would also advise to ask the sellers. Many try to cheat but when asked directly ‘is this a fully authentic watch, with a real dial?’ will confess


Excellent, thank you for sharing your expertise. I will be sure to keep a look out for a fairer price authentic watch. Any sites you would recommend monitoring? I searched some old posts that recommend the Italian ebay.


----------



## Odessa200

duodeviginti said:


> Excellent, thank you for sharing your expertise. I will be sure to keep a look out for a fairer price authentic watch. Any sites you would recommend monitoring? I searched some old posts that recommend the Italian ebay.


I like ebay. Somehow etsy is not my thing. These watches were made initially for Italian market so Italian and European ebays is a good place. Sometimes they pop on the USA ebay as well


----------



## twd_2003

Odessa200 said:


> all Slava skeletons are franken. Bezel is the least of the problem. Same as the shape of the hour and minute hands (one is tapered and another squre), the paint for Slava hands should be inside the hand window (not covering the hand). But all these are small issues: The watch is missing a dial


Oh okay…thanks for helping a noob out lol


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16336743
> 
> View attachment 16336744
> 
> 
> 
> I would say a fair value is 350$.
> What hinted me that the etsy watch is fake? Lets see if you can spot the fake between these 2 images. One is the etsy watch. This is just 1 obvious spot (letter E). Many other issues with this dial can be pointed out. You are smart to ask for an advice here given you are just starting this watch journey. I would also advise to ask the sellers. Many try to cheat but when asked directly ‘is this a fully authentic watch, with a real dial?’ will confess


Compare the text on the dial the thickness of the letters, the intensity of the colors and the position - it is too close to the numbers (for measuring the pulse). I too almost fell for this watch, luckily didn't buy it. But yeah, prices are insane. @Odessa200 you think 500€ is too much? There's another guy on ebay from Italy selling one for over 900€!

edit: wait, I actually wanted to quote @duodeviginti

edit2: oh, I see the other one is already in the second link, nevermind


----------



## Odessa200

Yea, I think anything more than 350-400$ for this watch in a nos condition is a bit too much…. Of course my view may change when I will be selling


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

Reading up on old forum threads is probably going to kill my bank balance but it got me interested in the early Pobeda k-46 movements. Discovered this - an Exacto - & wondered if this is just someone bunging a k-46 in a case or might have been issued this way? Also is the movement correct?Any help much appreciated


----------



## Chascomm

Spirit’dWatcher said:


> Reading up on old forum threads is probably going to kill my bank balance but it got me interested in the early Pobeda k-46 movements. Discovered this - an Exacto - & wondered if this is just someone bunging a k-46 in a case or might have been issued this way? Also is the movement correct?Any help much appreciated
> View attachment 16338279


Are there photos from al angles of the watch assembled? The case back flat area is smaller than the movement diameter. With this type of case the movement should fit into the case back which then fits into the case. In this photo the movement looks too big for that.


----------



## Odessa200

Chascomm said:


> Are there photos from al angles of the watch assembled? The case back flat area is smaller than the movement diameter. With this type of case the movement should fit into the case back which then fits into the case. In this photo the movement looks too big for that.


i was looking at this watch as well. Short answer: I do not know. If I had to guess I would think it is a franken. I do not believe this was a Pobeda to begin with. 1st of all, the movement barely fits (if fits at all), the dial does not cover the movement completely (very unusual). It would not have Pobeda on the movement and Exacta on the dial (they would use a blank wheel at least). Then the dial looks like an artel quality. Strange lumed hands (this is not a military watch and back then, if i am not mistaken, people did not use lumed hands on dress watches). Then the case looks like Slava. If 1mchz would use Pobeda movement then the case would be from the square Poljot. Agree? I smell a franken.


----------



## Spirit’dWatcher

Odessa200 said:


> i was looking at this watch as well. Short answer: I do not know. If I had to guess I would think it is a franken. I do not believe this was a Pobeda to begin with. 1st of all, the movement barely fits (if fits at all), the dial does not cover the movement completely (very unusual). It would not have Pobeda on the movement and Exacta on the dial (they would use a blank wheel at least). Then the dial looks like an artel quality. Strange lumed hands (this is not a military watch and back then, if i am not mistaken, people did not use lumed hands on dress watches). Then the case looks like Slava. If 1mchz would use Pobeda movement then the case would be from the square Poljot. Agree? I smell a franken.
> 
> View attachment 16338765
> 
> View attachment 16338764
> '
> View attachment 16338794


Cheers both - I thought I smelt something burning too but it’s prettiness seduced me til I saw the movement fit. I’m glad you thought it was worthy of a look as well Odessa ;-)
May 2022 bring you both great horological joys!


----------



## Odessa200

Spirit’dWatcher said:


> Cheers both - I thought I smelt something burning too but it’s prettiness seduced me til I saw the movement fit. I’m glad you thought it was worthy of a look as well Odessa ;-)
> May 2022 bring you both great horological joys!


plus I think 1mchz stopped doing Pobedas in the 60s while this is 70s watch. Again, I am not sure. Just guessing.


----------



## Brblesh

Need some opinions on this old Amphibia. Dial, case, hands, crown and bezel seem fine to me. What about the rest?
Also i see a lot of similar Amphibias with a different bezel, like the one they put on "barrel" Amphibias. Were they also produced with such bezels or are they later replacements?


----------



## 979greenwich

For this type 350 only this type of bezel. The rest: ratchet wheel probably replaced. Not a big deal.


----------



## Brblesh

979greenwich said:


> For this type 350 only this type of bezel. The rest: ratchet wheel probably replaced. Not a big deal.


Thank you very much. I noticed the ratchet wheel so i was scared that something bigger could be wrong on the mechanism that i don't see.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello again friends,

Can you help me with this 2609A Raketa Atom? The dial and hands combo look correct, with the possibility that the crown has been replaced(?) but I'm not well versed with the movement.
What is the primary difference between a 2609 vs 2609A. I presume the 2609A came out later, but how much later?

Thanks























Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

I do not know exactly the time difference. Maybe a few months… but they apear in same catalogs, used around same time and used for otherwise same models. The main (and only as far as I know) difference: One is 16 j another is 21 j. Look at the top jewels that have 2 jewels each (with shock protection) 

your watch has a correct movement that matches the dial 21 j


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> I do not know exactly the time difference. Maybe a few months… but they apear in same catalogs, used around same time and used for otherwise same models. The main (and only as far as I know) difference: One is 16 j another is 21 j. Look at the top jewels that have 2 jewels each (with shock protection)
> 
> your watch has a correct movement that matches the dial 21 j
> View attachment 16349559
> 
> View attachment 16349557


Hmmm. Thank you Odessa. Is this piece missing screws? Hard to tell from the catalog. 

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Not sure what screws you are talking about. Your watch does not need mounting screws. The movement is held by the insert I think.

Catalog shows the movements. The main thing is: 2609A is more precise and more expensive version of 2609.


----------



## Kachunko

Hello everyone. I need some expert help about this Sturmanskie Chronograph because there are a lot of fake/frankened ones. Thank you in advance.


----------



## MattBrace

Kachunko said:


> Hello everyone. I need some expert help about this Sturmanskie Chronograph because there are a lot of fake/frankened ones. Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 16351631
> 
> View attachment 16351630
> 
> View attachment 16351632


A fairly decent original 80's example.

Cheers...


----------



## Kachunko

MattBrace said:


> A fairly decent original 80's example.
> 
> Cheers...


Many thanks for the reply.


----------



## A0Zmat

What are the chances this isn't fake ?

















I checked all catalogues and couldn't find the dial. Only kind of the same on alarm clocks, but with remarkable differences in the way the numbers are drawn. So is it a 100% fake or a franken with a fake dial ?

Asking because I already put a (relatively cheap) bid on it 😬


----------



## Chascomm

Legit or franken, pre-Revolution:








Paragon Vintage Pocket Watch


Dear vintage watches professionals and lovers, I need your help to identify this watch. The only information I have about this watch is as follows. The coat of arms of the Russian Empire is engraved on the inner cover. Below that is an inscription in Russian, which in translation means the...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Odessa200

Chascomm said:


> Legit or franken, pre-Revolution:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paragon Vintage Pocket Watch
> 
> 
> Dear vintage watches professionals and lovers, I need your help to identify this watch. The only information I have about this watch is as follows. The coat of arms of the Russian Empire is engraved on the inner cover. Below that is an inscription in Russian, which in translation means the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


I agree with your assessment: the watch was placed in the Buhre case.


----------



## affeg

Is this Raketa legit or a frankenwatch. I know the movement is right for this watch but I am sceptic about the dial since the outer part of the dial is white and the inner part is beige.


----------



## Odessa200

affeg said:


> Is this Raketa legit or a frankenwatch. I know the movement is right for this watch but I am sceptic about the dial since the outer part of the dial is white and the inner part is beige.
> View attachment 16360579
> View attachment 16360580
> View attachment 16360582
> View attachment 16360587


the chapter ring is always of a different color in this watch as far as I know. The problem with this watch is in the movement: it is 2609.НП and 2608.HA at the same time! Super rare animal. Joking. Small issue: the ratchet wheel needs to be replaced to be a empty one. But small issue creates a big suspicion: how come? Probably this watch was repaired and assembled from available parts and somehow the blank ratchet wheel was not available.


----------



## affeg

Odessa200 said:


> the chapter ring is always of a different color in this watch as far as I know. The problem with this watch is in the movement: it is 2609.НП and 2608.HA at the same time! Super rare animal. Joking. Small issue: the ratchet wheel needs to be replaced to be a empty one. But small issue creates a big suspicion: how come? Probably this watch was repaired and assembled from available parts and somehow the blank ratchet wheel was not available.


Thanks for the answer! So the 2609.НП and 2609.HA is two different movements or is the ratchet wheel from a 2608.HA?


----------



## Odessa200

affeg said:


> Thanks for the answer! So the 2609.НП and 2609.HA is two different movements or is the ratchet wheel from a 2608.HA?


yes and no. The only difference between these calibers is the stamp and additional tuning HП used to get at the factory. So the НП is a more precise variation of HA. Precision was achieved by hand selecting better balances and doing more tuning. But w/o the matching passport and after so many years this precision is a moot point. No other differences. It is impossible to tell is this watch was released as HП or HA (whatever the bridge was replaced or the wheel was replaced). We know that the watch suppose to have НП hence changing the wheel is the way to go. Or just leave it as is. Your call.


----------



## RobNJ

A0Zmat said:


> What are the chances this isn't fake ?
> View attachment 16355802
> 
> View attachment 16355801
> 
> 
> I checked all catalogues and couldn't find the dial. Only kind of the same on alarm clocks, but with remarkable differences in the way the numbers are drawn. So is it a 100% fake or a franken with a fake dial ?
> 
> Asking because I already put a (relatively cheap) bid on it 😬


Just guessing, but I'd imagine that the chances that it is _not _fake are pretty good. You've been through the catalogs, but I think a lot of 1980s-early 90s Slava escaped those catalogs. The other parts (hands, movement), except maybe the crown, are plausible. And _because _the dial is not a popular, well-known dial, I think it less likely to have been faked. Just my opinion - if you're not into it for very much money on your bid, I'd rest happy.


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a nice looking Pobeda TTK-1. Is it ok? My confusion is does TTK-1 balance and ratchet wheel follow 1MChZ conventions, as that is what it looks like here? Many thanks.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's a nice looking Pobeda TTK-1. Is it ok? My confusion is does TTK-1 balance and ratchet wheel follow 1MChZ conventions, as that is what it looks like here? Many thanks.


very good TTK. Please note that TTK was initially using 1mchz parts to make watches. Only after a few years they started making their own parts. But regardless of this, this Pobeda is all good as far as I see


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## palletwheel

I was looking at this Poljot 093027:





Poljot | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Poljot, Polet, Flight, Poljot De Luxe, Orbita, 1MWF, Полет, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com




My only concern is the crown, I can't quite tell from @mroatman if the top of the crown is really rounded. In the photos attached it's definitely flat. I think the rest is ok. Note I see an 091027/103027 in the attached catalogs with a flat crown, did @mroatman provide the correct reference number or are there two slightly different ones? Opinions? Many thanks.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I was looking at this Poljot 093027:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poljot | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Poljot, Polet, Flight, Poljot De Luxe, Orbita, 1MWF, Полет, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only concern is the crown, I can't quite tell from @mroatman if the top of the crown is really rounded. In the photos attached it's definitely flat. I think the rest is ok. Note I see an 091027/103027 in the attached catalogs with a flat crown, did @mroatman provide the correct reference number or are there two slightly different ones? Opinions? Many thanks.


tough one. All I can offer is an image of my copy of a similar watch. Got in dreadful state from a random guy. Not a watch reseller. From an estate re-seller. The watch cleaned up fantastically and this is the crown it has. Even in the catalogs we see variations of crowns. Maybe they used several different styles over the years…


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> tough one. All I can offer is an image of my copy of this watch. Got in dreadful state from a random guy. Not a watch reseller. From an estate re-seller. The watch cleaned up fantastically and this is the crown it has. Even in the catalogs we see variations of crowns. Maybe they used several different styles over the years…


Note your dial is different. The posted one has radial embossing. Yeah, lots of variations of this. Thanks for the help, will have to think on this...


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Note your dial is different. The posted one has radial embossing. Yeah, lots of variations of this. Thanks for the help, will have to think on this...


yes, mine is a slightly different. If the price is right, buy yours. Maybe later you will get a different crown or maybe what it has is a legit variation. I would not disqualify based on just this crown.


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## AaParker

palletwheel said:


> I was looking at this Poljot 093027:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poljot | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Poljot, Polet, Flight, Poljot De Luxe, Orbita, 1MWF, Полет, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My only concern is the crown, I can't quite tell from @mroatman if the top of the crown is really rounded. In the photos attached it's definitely flat. I think the rest is ok. Note I see an 091027/103027 in the attached catalogs with a flat crown, did @mroatman provide the correct reference number or are there two slightly different ones? Opinions? Many thanks.


Very nice examples! And here's mine, certainly not as nice, if it helps. I think it has the correct crown. It is flat.


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## palletwheel

AaParker said:


> Very nice examples! And here's mine, certainly not as nice, if it helps. I think it has the correct crown. It is flat.


I can't read the catalog entry but if either you or @Odessa200 can take a moment it appears it lists a bunch of variations with the number change. It may be reasonable to suppose that the dial embossing varied with the rest the same including a flat crown. Curious which catalog @mroatman found his in. I can't find that exact number. Too bad he's not around the forum these days.


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## palletwheel

Actually, first time I caught @mroatman out. Here is the catalog entry for 103028 and @mroatman entry. Clearly not correct, and I'd speculate that you gentleman have a correct flat crown. What do you think?





Poljot | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Poljot, Polet, Flight, Poljot De Luxe, Orbita, 1MWF, Полет, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> yes, mine is a slightly different. If the price is right, buy yours. Maybe later you will get a different crown or maybe what it has is a legit variation. I would not disqualify based on just this crown.


Actually I take it back, same dial as both you and @AaParker . Here's a photo in raking light and one can see the pattern better. So I think this is an 103027, which I guess is the export number?


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I can't read the catalog entry but if either you or @Odessa200 can take a moment it appears it lists a bunch of variations with the number change. It may be reasonable to suppose that the dial embossing varied with the rest the same including a flat crown. Curious which catalog @mroatman found his in. I can't find that exact number. Too bad he's not around the forum these days.


Catalog has part codes. Crown - 910. But nobody can tell what is 910. The only thing you can compare with other watches that also have 910 crown listed.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Actually I take it back, same dial as both you and @AaParker . Here's a photo in raking light and one can see the pattern better. So I think this is an 103027, which I guess is the export number?


here is my watch again. This is a super-export version. It has a flat crown that is not that thick. Regular exports and domestic versions have a thicker flat crown. This is what I think is correct and is inline with this catalog

































palletwheel said:


> I can't read the catalog entry but if either you or @Odessa200 can take a moment it appears it lists a bunch of variations with the number change. It may be reasonable to suppose that the dial embossing varied with the rest the same including a flat crown. Curious which catalog @mroatman found his in. I can't find that exact number. Too bad he's not around the forum these days.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> here is my watch again. This is a super-export version. It has a flat crown that is not that thick. Regular exports and domestic versions have a thicker flat crown. This is what I think is correct and is inline with this catalog


Never knew there was such a thing as a super export version. I think we all agree that the crowns on these should be flat. Varying thickness is interesting, but yes, I can see that from our examples. Catalog entry for 093027 crown does look a little thicker too. Would all these variations still go under 103027 export / 093027 domestic? Seems so from these two catalogs, but appreciate your thoughts. Many thanks as always for your efforts, they are always appreciated. As a note I ordered this, will look forward to it when it comes.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Never knew there was such a thing as a super export version. I think we all agree that the crowns on these should be flat. Varying thickness is interesting, but yes, I can see that from our examples. Catalog entry for 093027 crown does look a little thicker too. Would all these variations still go under 103027 export / 093027 domestic? Seems so from these two catalogs, but appreciate your thoughts. Many thanks as always for your efforts, they are always appreciated. As a note I ordered this, will look forward to it when it comes.


I think we tend to overthink these small details. Back then, the factory needed to meet an annual commitment and deliver X watches or heads would roll. If a crown of some shape was not available it could be easily substituted for a similar one. Plus there are variations of same style over the years. maybe they planned to make a different watch and manufactured some parts but plans changed and they used compatible parts like crown. So unless the crown is outrageously wrong (and we see sometimes dress Luch or Poljot 2209 with a huge crown) I think it is feasible that the crown is authentic and should not devalue the watch.


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## JC.Auck

My apologies if this is not quite the right place but I didn't want to start a separate thread, can anyone identify the factory mark of this Soviet bulkhead clock? I have not encountered the "crescent T" factory symbol before and am wondering if this was a legit producer of these clocks during the Soviet era:




Many thanks! 


JC


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## Odessa200

JC.Auck said:


> My apologies if this is not quite the right place but I didn't want to start a separate thread, can anyone identify the factory mark of this Soviet bulkhead clock? I have not encountered the "crescent T" factory symbol before and am wondering if this was a legit producer of these clocks during the Soviet era:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> 
> JC


It is not watch factory. It is a mark similar to what we have now for recycle but it meant something else. But I do not recall what. It was on many science related products. Here is an example.


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## JC.Auck

Odessa200 said:


> It is not watch factory. It is a mark similar to what we have now for recycle but it meant something else. But I do not recall what. It was on many science related products. Here is an example.


Thanks Odessa, after your reply I looked more into state and standard marks, it is maybe an older version of the first symbol in the picture below, Technical Regulations conformity mark? Thank you for your help.




JC


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## affeg

I am interested in


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## elsoldemayo

Looks fine. Because the dial and second hand on these Sputnik's are so often replaced, good examples are usually a few hundred $


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## AaParker

JC.Auck said:


> Thanks Odessa, after your reply I looked more into state and standard marks, it is maybe an older version of the first symbol in the picture below, Technical Regulations conformity mark? Thank you for your help.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JC


The symbol was also used on watch passports. 








.


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## JC.Auck

AaParker said:


> The symbol was also used on watch passports.


I'm always learning something new when I post in this thread, thanks AaParker 


JC


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## roachjl

What do we think of this watch? It looks pretty good, but i don’t have good experience. It seems to have a ton of lume for an 80s watch. Is this a decent example? Thanks!








My


































Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 979greenwich

Hands are wrong. God knows what else.


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## affeg

roachjl said:


> What do we think of this watch? It looks pretty good, but i don’t have good experience. It seems to have a ton of lume for an 80s watch. Is this a decent example? Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It looks like the hands and the dial are wrong. I don't know about the rest of the watch.


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## roachjl

affeg said:


> It looks like the hands and the dial are wrong. I don't know about the rest of the watch.


Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## roachjl

979greenwich said:


> Hands are wrong. God knows what else.


Thanks 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PiotrS

roachjl said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hands and dial it is wrong. Rest (case is steel, so I think, and mechanism) I think it's okay.


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## AaParker

I'm pretty sure this is the wrong case for this watch. I think it should have straight lugs without an angled part out to case from other examples I've seen? Thank you for any opinions.


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## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> I'm pretty sure this is the wrong case for this watch. I think it should have straight lugs without an angled part out to case from other examples I've seen? Thank you for any opinions.
> 
> View attachment 16372815


yes. This is wrong. Here is a right one.


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## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> yes. This is wrong. Here is a right one.
> View attachment 16372969
> 
> View attachment 16372968


Thank you very much!


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## RedFroggy

AaParker said:


> I'm pretty sure this is the wrong case for this watch. I think it should have straight lugs without an angled part out to case from other examples I've seen? Thank you for any opinions.
> 
> View attachment 16372815


🤔.… Maybe Poljot was wrong … your watch looks nicer than mine in that case 🙂


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## AaParker

RedFroggy said:


> 🤔.… Maybe Poljot was wrong … your watch looks nicer than mine in that case 🙂
> 
> View attachment 16374667


Oh, that's a nice example  I agree the wrong case fits the dial pretty well. It's such a unique watch design with the second-hand really being the challenge to get a correct version. And then a seller lists as all original and you think, is it? Is that case right? So I doubt myself and then I look and I look. And in the end, I'm extremely grateful to have members willing to share their expertise. The search continues!


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## affeg

Seller says this is a NOS. Do you think its legit or a franken?


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## Odessa200

affeg said:


> Seller says this is a NOS. Do you think its legit or a franken?
> View attachment 16384226
> View attachment 16384227


completely franken.


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## timestampaviator

New to Russian watches - looking to pick up a copernicus. Scouring Ebay, I found this one I really like. My gut feeling says its a reproduction, can anyone confirm? The hands and crown look true to the original, but I am not sure about the gold dots on the dial.


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## primoun

timestampaviator said:


> New to Russian watches - looking to pick up a copernicus. Scouring Ebay, I found this one I really like. My gut feeling says its a reproduction, can anyone confirm? The hands and crown look true to the original, but I am not sure about the gold dots on the dial.
> View attachment 16384575


I'd expect the seconds hand should be black. Do you have photos of the side/back of the watch and the movement? The gold dots look ok to me.


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## timestampaviator

primoun said:


> I'd expect the seconds hand should be black. Do you have photos of the side/back of the watch and the movement? The gold dots look ok to me.


Unfortunately no. Heres another example from the same seller. Priced around $130ish. Such a beautiful piece.


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## primoun

timestampaviator said:


> Unfortunately no. Heres another example from the same seller. Priced around $130ish. Such a beautiful piece.
> View attachment 16384660


I wouldn't buy a copernicus that doesn't have pictures of the whole watch - very likely a fake/franken; there are lots of fake copernicus watches because of how popular the watch is. Authentic watches usually have signs of wear and tear, and this watch looks too clean. The text on the dial on the picture above also has detailed Cyrillic. Every authentic copernicus I've seen has simplified Cyrillic. (д and л should look like triangles).

I would look for watches which have some wear and tear as well as pictures from every angle of the watch and pictures of the movement. I would also avoid sellers which are selling multiple quantities of these watches as each watch should have its own listing with unique pictures of that watch. Good luck!


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## timestampaviator

primoun said:


> I wouldn't buy a copernicus that doesn't have pictures of the whole watch - very likely a fake/franken; there are lots of fake copernicus watches because of how popular the watch is. Authentic watches usually have signs of wear and tear, and this watch looks too clean. The text on the dial on the picture above also has detailed Cyrillic. Every authentic copernicus I've seen has simplified Cyrillic. (д and л should look like triangles).
> 
> I would look for watches which have some wear and tear as well as pictures from every angle of the watch and pictures of the movement. I would also avoid sellers which are selling multiple quantities of these watches as each watch should have its own listing with unique pictures of that watch. Good luck!


Thanks for the help.


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## affeg

Odessa200 said:


> completely franken.


Thanks!


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## Skovac123

Hey, so I've been eyeing up this particular watch on Ebay... Is it a Frankenstein watch? I get the feeling it is due to the English on the caseback. It's claiming to be a "Zakaz Mo CCCP" Komandirskie. The movement seems legit (generally), but the case and caseback seem... not quite right. Vostok KOMANDIRSKIE Zakaz MO Chistopol Red Star USSR Vintage Soviet Russia Watch | eBay


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## 979greenwich

You can see it in the 1976 catalogue:








Komandirskies as tool watches?


I'm working on a few new sections of my website, one of which is "military watches", and it's come to my attention that I don't actually know if any -skies were actual tool watches. Presumably, the name on the dial indicated for whom the watch was meant: Commander (Komandirskie), General...




www.watchuseek.com




The crown and caseback are replaced. About the movement, I'm not sure when exactly they started stamping 2234 on it. Could be OK.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> You can see it in the 1976 catalogue:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Komandirskies as tool watches?
> 
> 
> I'm working on a few new sections of my website, one of which is "military watches", and it's come to my attention that I don't actually know if any -skies were actual tool watches. Presumably, the name on the dial indicated for whom the watch was meant: Commander (Komandirskie), General...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The crown and caseback are replaced. About the movement, I'm not sure when exactly they started stamping 2234 on it. Could be OK.


movement is wrong as well. The balance with the beat error regulator appeared later as far as I understand.


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## Skovac123

979greenwich said:


> You can see it in the 1976 catalogue:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Komandirskies as tool watches?
> 
> 
> I'm working on a few new sections of my website, one of which is "military watches", and it's come to my attention that I don't actually know if any -skies were actual tool watches. Presumably, the name on the dial indicated for whom the watch was meant: Commander (Komandirskie), General...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The crown and caseback are replaced. About the movement, I'm not sure when exactly they started stamping 2234 on it. Could be OK.


It actually says 2214 on the movement. Based on some research I did, I get the feeling that this watch is actually from the 1980's, just with a "zakaz mo cccp" dial added to it. Having said that, though, I did see some similar Vostoks to this one with a similar and/or the same movement, which is where the confusion comes in. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that the caseback is most likely from the 1980's or later, from everything I've ever seen (I don't think they put that stuff in English until around the mid 80's or so).


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> It actually says 2214 on the movement. Based on some research I did, I get the feeling that this watch is actually from the 1980's, just with a "zakaz mo cccp" dial added to it. Having said that, though, I did see some similar Vostoks to this one with a similar and/or the same movement, which is where the confusion comes in. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that the caseback is most likely from the 1980's or later, from everything I've ever seen (I don't think they put that stuff in English until around the mid 80's or so).


i do not think there is much confusion here: it is a franken watch. The thing is that this is an early dial/hands and the movement should be also of an appropriate age. Not just any movement. Early Dirskie had 2214 stamped, then nothing, then 2234. We all know this. But besides the caliber stamp other aspects like correct balance should be there. Adding wrong case back and crown: picture cannot be more clear. It is a badly franked watch.


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## Skovac123

Odessa200 said:


> i do not think there is much confusion here: it is a franken watch. The thing is that this is an early dial/hands and the movement should be also of an appropriate age. Not just any movement. Early Dirskie had 2214 stamped, then nothing, then 2234. We all know this. But besides the caliber stamp other aspects like correct balance should be there. Adding wrong case back and crown: picture cannot be more clear. It is a badly franked watch.


Fair enough. I just looked at the various catalogs from Vostok, and after doing so, it cannot be more clear to me that this is an 80's Vostok with a 60's/70's dial.


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> Fair enough. I just looked at the various catalogs from Vostok, and after doing so, it cannot be more clear to me that this is an 80's Vostok with a 60's/70's dial.


yes. Sounds right.


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## Skovac123

I've got another watch I've been looking at. Is this one legit?
VOSTOK Commander 2209 CHISTOPOL Zakaz MO USSR Vintage Military Wristwatch CCCP | eBay


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## 979greenwich

The '80s movements had flat edges. And the second one is even worse. This dial does not belong in this case.


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> I've got another watch I've been looking at. Is this one legit?
> VOSTOK Commander 2209 CHISTOPOL Zakaz MO USSR Vintage Military Wristwatch CCCP | eBay
> View attachment 16391247
> 
> View attachment 16391249
> View attachment 16391250


No. This guy has many frankens for sale. But some watches are a bit more correct. This is another of his watches that is way more correct (broken tail of the hand, relumed hands). This is how this model needs to look inside and out… note that here he is mentioning Stop Second. In your choice not. 








VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


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## Skovac123

Odessa200 said:


> No. This guy has many frankens for sale. But some watches are a bit more correct. This is another of his watches that is way more correct (broken tail of the hand, relumed hands). This is how this model needs to look inside and out… note that here he is mentioning Stop Second. In your choice not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I did some more research and found that the vast majority of the Vostok "zakaz mo cccp" watches have 2234 movements, and one thing I've found since discovering that is that a lot of these frankens have 2214 movements, which (as far as I can tell) were not made for the Ministry of Defense watches. One last watch for the time being... Is this one legit? I have my suspicions because I found one negative review (out of multiple hundreds of positives) saying that a Swiss watch he was selling was a counterfeit.
Komandirskie Vostok 2234 Original Vintage Soviet Officers Military Watch 1960s | eBay



















Right off the bat, it looks like it was buffed out (looks weirdly clean for a watch of its age), and the red pointer on the second hand looks like it was repainted. Can't say for sure, though. It looks fine otherwise.


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> I did some more research and found that the vast majority of the Vostok "zakaz mo cccp" watches have 2234 movements, and one thing I've found since discovering that is that a lot of these frankens have 2214 movements, which (as far as I can tell) were not made for the Ministry of Defense watches. One last watch for the time being... Is this one legit? I have my suspicions because I found one negative review (out of multiple hundreds of positives) saying that a Swiss watch he was selling was a counterfeit.
> Komandirskie Vostok 2234 Original Vintage Soviet Officers Military Watch 1960s | eBay
> View attachment 16391423
> View attachment 16391424
> View attachment 16391425
> 
> Right off the bat, it looks like it was buffed out (looks weirdly clean for a watch of its age), and the red pointer on the second hand looks like it was repainted. Can't say for sure, though. It looks fine otherwise.


note: the watch has 2 numbers (on the back and on the movement) and this is wrong. Every old Dirskie will only have the number on the movement. Then it has a replaced balance bridge.
As far as 2234 vs 2214: early Dirskie can have 2214 labeled backs and movements with the Stop second. 2234 was not defined as a separate caliber for several years. So 2214 is NOT an issue if this is an early 2214 with the stop second.


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## Skovac123

Odessa200 said:


> No. This guy has many frankens for sale. But some watches are a bit more correct. This is another of his watches that is way more correct (broken tail of the hand, relumed hands). This is how this model needs to look inside and out… note that here he is mentioning Stop Second. In your choice not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for VOSTOK Commander Gold Plated 2234 CHISTOPOL USSR Military Stop Second SERVICED☭ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


I'd like to note though that on closer inspection, the dial seems a little crooked.


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> I'd like to note though that on closer inspection, the dial seems a little crooked.


the insert is a bit off. This watch went through a lot…. Normally I stay away from sellers like these. Based on his lots I see he runs a business to sell quickly with minimal work put into the restoring the watches correctly. His prices are low and attractive but quality of the watches is not that hight.


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## Skovac123

Odessa200 said:


> the insert is a bit off. This watch went through a lot…. Normally I stay away from sellers like these. Based on his lots I see he runs a business to sell quickly with minimal work put into the restoring the watches correctly.


What do you think of sellers like this guy? He seems to put a little more effort into what he's selling from what I can tell (he's also from Russia instead of Ukraine, since I know Ukraine has a reputation for making a lot of frankenwatches).
lavru-marin on eBay


----------



## Loupy

Hey all, beginner here. I've been looking at cal. 3017 chronoghraphs and would appreciate any input on the originality of a few.

1. Poljot Strela Chronograph - Alexey Leonov first space walk ever for $1,221 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24

2. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1125867712/watch-strela-chronograph-1mchz-poljot?click_key=08fefe69a4d98e48abda9c3dd01acb90ff1093d5:1125867712&click_sum=8f36d875&ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=strela+3017&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&organic_search_click=1&pro=1&frs=1&sts=1

3. WATCH 3017 POLJOT CHRONOGRAPH SEKONDA STRELA USSR SOVIET PILOT COSMONAUT RARE! | eBay

Thanks!


----------



## steros

I just realized I have been rather stupid, I thought ”marriage watch” referred to watches connected to weddings… Like, interesting people those russians, they give each other watches instead of rings when they get married!
Luckily, I haven’t bought any of those interesting traditional marriage watches…


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## Odessa200

Skovac123 said:


> What do you think of sellers like this guy? He seems to put a little more effort into what he's selling from what I can tell (he's also from Russia instead of Ukraine, since I know Ukraine has a reputation for making a lot of frankenwatches).
> lavru-marin on eBay


I find this seller is so-so. Some Ok watches. But ignore my complaints. All sellers occasionally have good watches.


----------



## Natten

Hello everyone, once again I request your kind assistance. Legit or franken?


----------



## 979greenwich

I'm not 100 % sure, but the font Raketa looks too thick. The glass was also probably replaced.


----------



## Natten

979greenwich said:


> I'm not 100 % sure, but the font Raketa looks too thick. The glass was also probably replaced.


If you don't mind, why do you think the crystal was replaced? I thought they were supposed to have flat crystals (trying to learn)?


----------



## 979greenwich

Yes, it should have a flat top and a defined edge. This one looks rounded at the edge.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Yes, it should have a flat top and a defined edge. This one looks rounded at the edge.


Hard to tell. My guess this is a modern replica that f the old crystal that is almost right.


----------



## GuyMannski

Hello, I'm new to watches and got an Amphibia off of Ebay recently. I was wondering if it's legit, also should the bevel be able to rotate clockwise and counterclockwise?


----------



## Ligavesh

GuyMannski said:


> Hello, I'm new to watches and got an Amphibia off of Ebay recently. I was wondering if it's legit, also should the bevel be able to rotate clockwise and counterclockwise?
> 
> View attachment 16398614
> 
> View attachment 16398613


Dial and hands are not original and wrong, rest is okay, bezel is bi-directional in almost all Vostoks, just some new recent special editions have uni-directional bezels.


----------



## steros

Ligavesh said:


> Dial and hands are not original and wrong, rest is okay, bezel is bi-directional in almost all Vostoks, just some new recent special editions have uni-directional bezels.


Dial is fake or just not original for this watch?


----------



## gp20

Hello, I have just received a Big Zero with a 2614 movement, you confirm that it is impossible despite all the ******** from the seller?

"
Hello, I am not a watchmaker.
My friend the master said that this version is very rare and most likely original, because above the hallmark 2614 is the logo of the Petrodvorets watch factory "Raketa".
In the 80-90s, when these watches were made, watches were often assembled from what was in production.
Also, the master said that I was a fool for selling them so cheaply and he would have bought them much more expensive. this is a unique instance.
If you want, you can return the watch and I will refund your money.
Ready to consider your proposals for solving the situation?"


----------



## 979greenwich

2614 is a movement with a calendar. Big Zero doesn't have a calendar. You didn't post a picture of the movement, it's possible that the 2609.HA bridge is swapped with a 2614 bridge, because they are the same. Next steps? Depends how much you paid and how much how care about originality.


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> Dial is fake or just not original for this watch?


I think the dial is Ok. Lets see what Vostok experts say.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Hello, I have just received a Big Zero with a 2614 movement, you confirm that it is impossible despite all the ****** from the seller?
> 
> "
> Hello, I am not a watchmaker.
> My friend the master said that this version is very rare and most likely original, because above the hallmark 2614 is the logo of the Petrodvorets watch factory "Raketa".
> In the 80-90s, when these watches were made, watches were often assembled from what was in production.
> Also, the master said that I was a fool for selling them so cheaply and he would have bought them much more expensive. this is a unique instance.
> If you want, you can return the watch and I will refund your money.
> Ready to consider your proposals for solving the situation?"
> View attachment 16399214


I would take the seller on his offer and request a full refund and he should pay returns shipping (assuming he sold this as fully authentic watch). Why? He is trying not intimidate you and clearly lying.

of course, if you paid very little you may keep the watch and ignore the wrong movement parts.


----------



## gp20

979greenwich said:


> 2614 is a movement with a calendar. Big Zero doesn't have a calendar. You didn't post a picture of the movement, it's possible that the 2609.HA bridge is swapped with a 2614 bridge, because they are the same. Next steps? Depends how much you paid and how much how care about originality.


I paid 4000 roubles. I will post a picture tonight. I want 100% originality... It's maybe only 2614's bridge... So you confirm the seller is lying..


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Dial is fake or just not original for this watch?





Odessa200 said:


> I think the dial is Ok. Lets see what Vostok experts say.


The dial is a genuine teal 059 but it's brand new, the hour hand is aftermarket, the minute hand is ok, the seconds hand is typical Komandirskie, the 470 case and it's bezel are original but these were made in the late 1980's to early 1990's and only ever housed the 2409A, the caseback can still be bought like this new and is obviously wrong for a 470, as for the movement who knows? but at least the calendar font is old...

@GuyMannski it's best to ask on the Q & A before you buy not after


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> I paid 4000 roubles. I will post a picture tonight. I want 100% originality... It's maybe only 2614's bridge... So you confirm the seller is lying..


50$ for this watch is a good price these days. If the only issue is the wrongly labeled bridge that nobody will ever see and the watch works well then you can consider keeping it. Finding a correct bridge for this movement is super easy. Next time you find a good watch and start bargaining with a seller who specializes in Sovet watches ask for an extra 2609.HA Raketa bridge. Many sellers will throw it for free to make a deal. If you would be in USA I would mail you one for free. Then any watchmaker can swap it in 5 mins.


----------



## Ligavesh

steros said:


> Dial is fake or just not original for this watch?


Not original for the watch - this is a 470 mpdel, those were made in the USSR - the dial should say 'СДЕЛАНО В СССР' or 'MADE IN USSR'. Here's a list of those models:









Amphibia Cassa 470 ottagonale | Vostok Amphibia CCCP


vostok amphibia




vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org


----------



## GuyMannski

Avidfan said:


> The dial is a genuine teal 059 but it's brand new, the hour hand is aftermarket, the minute hand is ok, the seconds hand is typical Komandirskie, the 470 case and it's bezel are original but these were made in the late 1980's to early 1990's and only ever housed the 2409A, the caseback can still be bought like this new and is obviously wrong for a 470, as for the movement who knows? but at least the calendar font is old...
> 
> @GuyMannski it's best to ask on the Q & A before you buy not after


Thank you for the advice. Yeah I found this thread after looking a little more into watches and learning about the number of frankens/fakes being sold.


----------



## Ligavesh

GuyMannski said:


> Thank you for the advice. Yeah I found this thread after looking a little more into watches and learning about the number of frankens/fakes being sold.


Just ask here with showing the photo before, buying, I also buy frankens when I don't watch out kr don't ask here first.


----------



## Ligavesh

That being said, you can always use the case and movement for a nice mod, or if you happen to find the right dial and hands -it is possible -you can put them on. Or just wear it like that if you like it, whatever.


----------



## gp20

I Hope you can see the 2614 movement from the "Big 0"...


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> I Hope you can see the 2614 movement from the "Big 0"...


yes, movement looks correct except of this 1 replaced bridge. Why people do this is beyond me: the correct bridge is super widely available.


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> yes, movement looks correct except of this 1 replaced bridge. Why people do this is beyond me: the correct bridge is super widely available.


I have got a 2nd Big Zero (legit), and I think the crown of this one (2614 movement) is smaller than the other (2609HA)... Is there a difference between Big Zero Paketa and Big 0 Raketa (it was an export model, with 'made in Russia' )?


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> I have got a 2nd Big Zero (legit), and I think the crown of this one (2614 movement) is smaller than the other (2609HA)... Is there a difference between Big Zero Paketa and Big 0 Raketa (it was an export model, with 'made in Russia' )?


 No, all versions have same crown and I think the smaller crown is correct. The case has a notch for the crown and the crown is a bit smaller than the notch. To be precise, the crown is 4.7 mm


----------



## moonlessbag

Hi all! First time posting here. I'm new to Soviet watches and have been looking around for a Raketa "Big Zero" as my first vintage purchase. I _think_ I've found a real one on ebay but given the enormous number of franken-versions, I thought it was prudent to check here first. Is this a real Big Zero? The price is about 190 AUD. Thank you!


----------



## Odessa200

moonlessbag said:


> Hi all! First time posting here. I'm new to Soviet watches and have been looking around for a Raketa "Big Zero" as my first vintage purchase. I _think_ I've found a real one on ebay but given the enormous number of franken-versions, I thought it was prudent to check here first. Is this a real Big Zero? The price is about 190 AUD. Thank you!
> View attachment 16405342
> 
> View attachment 16405343
> 
> View attachment 16405344
> 
> View attachment 16405345


welcome! Week done, looks good to me.


----------



## gp20

After a long research, I think this one is finally good !


----------



## patternskies

Hi all - new to this part of the forums and am lusting after a Copernic. How does this particular example look to you all? Really keen to learn, and very much appreciate your time and thoughts


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> After a long research, I think this one is finally good !
> 
> View attachment 16407204
> View attachment 16407205
> View attachment 16407214
> View attachment 16407215


All good except crystal


----------



## Odessa200

patternskies said:


> Hi all - new to this part of the forums and am lusting after a Copernic. How does this particular example look to you all? Really keen to learn, and very much appreciate your time and thoughts
> View attachment 16407397
> 
> View attachment 16407396
> 
> View attachment 16407398


Looks good to me.


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> All good except crystal


Ok Thank you... I continue my research.


----------



## patternskies

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me.


Thank you!!


----------



## gp20

I don't know if someone know well this model... I have another one and it doesn't have the same glass... The seller tells me "it's the good one". I have a doubt.


----------



## 979greenwich

Your doubt is well-founded.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Your doubt is well-founded.


LOL.

@gp20
horrible glass. You need to take it off the watch and smash it so it is never used anywhere again . You can pass this to the seller!


----------



## Simon

about to buy this 1970's gold plated - sure its sound but just running past the experts


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> about to buy this 1970's gold plated - sure its sound but just running past the experts
> 
> View attachment 16411584
> 
> View attachment 16411582


not sure about crown, can you add photos showing it fully.

and very not sure about white paint on top of this dial. Should be black paint.


----------



## Simon

Odessa200 said:


> not sure about crown, can you add photos showing it fully.
> and very not sure about white paint on top of this dial. Should be black paint.


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> View attachment 16411846
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16411847


Crown is probably Ok. Hands not. It is not contract enough. Watchmaker should be able to redo them in black. Ask him. Unless you like white


----------



## Simon

Odessa200 said:


> Crown is probably Ok. Hands not. It is not contract enough. Watchmaker should be able to redo them in black. Ask him. Unless you like white
> 
> View attachment 16411862


Thanks Odessa - so do you think the black sections on the gold hands have been relumed - the hands being legit? what year is this? 70's?


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> Thanks Odessa - so do you think the black sections on the gold hands have been relumed - the hands being legit? what year is this? 70's?


as far as I see, this watch in the catalog has black paint in hands. Also, 99% of these watches follow an expected rule: light paint in hands for dark dials and dark for light dials. But I did spot one Sekonda that violates this. Here is what I am talking about.

the rest is up to you: if you like with white and believe it is legit combo then go for it!


----------



## Simon

Thanks Odessa - grateful for this - definitely looks like the white hands are wrong having been lumed where before the centre of them was black

Its a nice looking piece though


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> Thanks Odessa - grateful for this - definitely looks like the white hands are wrong having been lumed where before the centre of them was black
> 
> Its a nice looking piece though


this is an easy fix: you take the hands off, drop in aceton, take out and paint from the underside with your wife black nail polish. What? You wife does not have a black nail polish? What kind of wife it is???


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> this is an easy fix: you take the hands off, drop in aceton, take out and paint from the underside with your wife black nail polish. What? You wife does not have a black nail polish? What kind of wife it is???


Nail polish will do? I was wondering what can one use for repainting fallen off or wrong color on the hands.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Nail polish will do? I was wondering what can one use for repainting fallen off or wrong color on the hands.


yes, any paint that dries up will do.


----------



## Simon

Keen to buy one of these - russian dealer has this for sale
all ok?









Vintage Mens Watch Mechanical Soviet Watch RAKETA Big Zero - Etsy UK


This Mens Wrist Watches item by BestwatchesUSSR has 16 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 06 Oct, 2022




www.etsy.com


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> Keen to buy one of these - russian dealer has this for sale
> all ok?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Mens Watch Mechanical Soviet Watch RAKETA Big Zero - Etsy UK
> 
> 
> This Mens Wrist Watches item by BestwatchesUSSR has 16 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 06 Oct, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com


I think this is a fake dial. Lets see what other folks say.


----------



## 979greenwich

I think so. Compare the font (this one is mine):


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> I think so. Compare the font (this one is mine):


yep. And here is the fake for sale for a few $


----------



## gp20

Simon said:


> Keen to buy one of these - russian dealer has this for sale
> all ok?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Mens Watch Mechanical Soviet Watch RAKETA Big Zero - Etsy UK
> 
> 
> This Mens Wrist Watches item by BestwatchesUSSR has 16 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 06 Oct, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com


Fake 100%.


----------



## palletwheel

Simon said:


> Keen to buy one of these - russian dealer has this for sale all ok?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vintage Mens Watch Mechanical Soviet Watch RAKETA Big Zero - Etsy UK
> 
> 
> This Mens Wrist Watches item by BestwatchesUSSR has 16 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 06 Oct, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com


Aging of dials, at least currently, is a good way to tell authenticity, though agreed some can be in amazing condition. Here are three I own. Two you can see the fading. One by contrast does not, but that one was well documented because it came with its original packaging and passport, so was clearly kept in drawer in a collection. So unless you can document it, if the dial looks brand new it is


----------



## gp20

Another Raketa, very rare... Legit ? I think the bridge was changed.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Another Raketa, very rare... Legit ? I think the bridge was changed.
> 
> View attachment 16418656
> View attachment 16418657
> View attachment 16418655


Now this is a tough one. The dial looks real but it was customized. Maybe by a factory worker. It is the SZRP raketa. Vey rare. This is how it should look.


----------



## palletwheel

Found this Poljot. Can't make it out, it's not a delux so the chrome case could be ok, though it has what looks like a perfectly fine 2209. Comments as always deeply appreciated.


----------



## Vargarmen

Greetings friends. I came across this Vostok and I really liked it, considering to purchase, couldn't find it on any catalog... Any help about its authenticity will be appreciated, thank you for your time in advance. (Photos are attached below)


----------



## Odessa200

Vargarmen said:


> Greetings friends. I came across this Vostok and I really liked it, considering to purchase, couldn't find it on any catalog... Any help about its authenticity will be appreciated, thank you for your time in advance. (Photos are attached below)
> View attachment 16419637
> View attachment 16419636
> 
> View attachment 16419638


Good early Komandirski. I do not think it ever appeared in catalogs but a similar watch was.
Crystal and crown replaced (expected) but look like a good match/replacement.
Please ask the seller if the watch has a stop second complication (it should have it). If yes then it is a good find


----------



## Vargarmen

Odessa200 said:


> Good early Komandirski. I do not think it ever appeared in catalogs but a similar watch was.
> Crystal and crown replaced (expected) but look like a good match/replacement.
> Please ask the seller if the watch has a stop second complication (it should have it). If yes then it is a good find
> View attachment 16419661


Thank you so much my friend, I will ask the seller.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Found this Poljot. Can't make it out, it's not a delux so the chrome case could be ok, though it has what looks like a perfectly fine 2209. Comments as always deeply appreciated.


As far as I know, this Poljot is present in the catalog only in gilded case (but maybe chromed existed, but I am skeptical). Also I would not expect a Kirovskie crown. Mine has a more modern back with 2 pieces (cover + ring) but I know some earlier versions had this old 1 piece back. 

Also, just a warning: this watch is tiny. Take a look (and my wrist is super skinny).


----------



## patternskies

Odessa200 said:


> Now this is a tough one. The dial looks real but it was customized. Maybe by a factory worker. It is the SZRP raketa. Vey rare. This is how it should look.
> View attachment 16418800


I assume this dial is not original? Raketa SZRP NOS 24 Hour Watch From 80s Swiss Watch Omega | Etsy Australia


----------



## Odessa200

patternskies said:


> I assume this dial is not original? Raketa SZRP NOS 24 Hour Watch From 80s Swiss Watch Omega | Etsy Australia


as far as I see it is original.


----------



## patternskies

Odessa200 said:


> as far as I see it is original.


On reflection, I think the dial looks poorly photographed. Movement looks legit too - a beautiful watch


----------



## Odessa200

patternskies said:


> On reflection, I think the dial looks poorly photographed. Movement looks legit too - a beautiful watch


I only see 2 issues with this watch:
1) price. But given that getting this watch for 300$ is a bargain maybe 500$ is a fair market price.
2) dubious description ‘Vintage from the 1960s’ 

as far as photos: the photos post processed in Photoshop to remove the ‘noise’. I find the case looking quite artificial (none of my straight shots f these cases produce anything like this).


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> As far as I know, this Poljot is present in the catalog only in gilded case (but maybe chromed existed, but I am skeptical). Also I would not expect a Kirovskie crown. Mine has a more modern back with 2 pieces (cover + ring) but I know some earlier versions had this old 1 piece back. Also, just a warning: this watch is tiny. Take a look (and my wrist is super skinny).


Yes, makes sense. Gold colored dials do get paired up with chrome cases, but still doesn't quite seem right. Its inventive as the movement seems to fit perfectly, so it makes you wonder. People really put some effort into these. Many thanks as always for your thoughts.


----------



## Vargarmen

Greetings all I wish you a happy monday, does anyone know which catalog is this Vostok in and any idea if all its parts seem alright? The case in the back doesn’t have any markings so it confused me a little bit. Also, if anyone knows is this one ‘waterproof’? 
Any help is appreciated.


----------



## Odessa200

Vargarmen said:


> Greetings all I wish you a happy monday, does anyone know which catalog is this Vostok in and any idea if all its parts seem alright? The case in the back doesn’t have any markings so it confused me a little bit. Also, if anyone knows is this one ‘waterproof’?
> Any help is appreciated.
> 
> View attachment 16421136
> 
> View attachment 16421137
> 
> View attachment 16421135


Hi. This is a franken watch. Calibers 2234 is with the stop second and no Vostok branded watches had it. This caliber belongs to a Komandirskiy. Do you still need a catalog? It will be in the 70s catalogs.

as far as waterproof: No. none of these watches would be waterproof. Just splash proof at best.


----------



## Vargarmen

Odessa200 said:


> Hi. This is a franken watch. Calibers 2234 is with the stop second and no Vostok branded watches had it. This caliber belongs to a Komandirskiy. Do you still need a catalog? It will be in the 70s catalogs.
> 
> as far as waterproof: No. none of these watches would be waterproof. Just splash proof at best.


Kind to help as always, thank you so much Odessa


----------



## Simon

Im very tempted


----------



## Vargarmen

Simon said:


> Im very tempted
> View attachment 16421501


That's a great watch, I'd definitely check the back case, whether the antimagnetic part is present and the movement. It's quite often these days people change the movements and/or dials. If you already bought it I hope you'll enjoy it.


----------



## gp20

Hello everyone, still looking for Raketa legit... I came across this today, what do you think? It's always difficult with the big 0 on the dial photos, the "vinyl" of the indexes and numbers is hard to see...

I have a doubt about the red star. In the collection of "samun", the big 0 peterhof has the branch of the red star which arrives higher on the E of peterhof... But I only saw that in his collection ...


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Hello everyone, still looking for Raketa legit... I came across this today, what do you think? It's always difficult with the big 0 on the dial photos, the "vinyl" of the indexes and numbers is hard to see...
> 
> I have a doubt about the red star. In the collection of "samun", the big 0 peterhof has the branch of the red star which arrives higher on the E of peterhof... But I only saw that in his collection ...
> 
> View attachment 16424125


looks legit to me


----------



## capannelle

My Peterhof also has the highest star. All the red print is offset slightly higher than yours. In my opinion they are small production variations and your watch is completely legit


----------



## 979greenwich

Plus, if you were to fake a Big Zero, you would do the non-propaganda version, because it fetches more $.


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> looks legit to me


Thanks for all. I will try to buy it.


----------



## Chascomm

979greenwich said:


> Plus, if you were to fake a Big Zero, you would do the non-propaganda version, because it fetches more $.


The counterpoint to that argument is the one sample I have handled of a Peterhof-branded Glasnost Big Zero that had a paper dial i.e. pasted over whatever was originally there. Mind you, that was many years ago when there was a definite premium on propaganda artefacts.


----------



## Ligavesh

Has anyone seen a catalogue picture of this watch:










Is this one correct (with black hands), or the one on MrOatman's site with silver and red hands:








??


----------



## KRedman

This one is really clean, and the movement has the markings on the ratchet wheel instead of the bridge. I’ve heard conflicting statements about that. Can’t really tell because it looks almost too good. 

I don't want to sell it if it's fake.


----------



## mariomart

Ligavesh said:


> Has anyone seen a catalogue picture of this watch:
> 
> View attachment 16428860
> 
> 
> Is this one correct (with black hands), or the one on MrOatman's site with silver and red hands:
> 
> View attachment 16428868
> ??


I have one of these in my collection as well.

I actually did a thread post about it in 2017 Finally caught an elusive folded strap lug Vostok

I believe the original is with the silver faceted hands and red second hand.

Here is mine


----------



## Odessa200

KRedman said:


> This one is really clean, and the movement has the markings on the ratchet wheel instead of the bridge. I’ve heard conflicting statements about that. Can’t really tell because it looks almost too good.
> 
> I don't want to sell it if it's fake.
> 
> View attachment 16429059
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429054
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429055
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429056
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429058
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429057


Is there a straight face photo?


----------



## KRedman

Odessa200 said:


> Is there a straight face photo?


Here you go:


----------



## Odessa200

KRedman said:


> Here you go:
> 
> 
> View attachment 16429121


Not sure I like this dial. Looks redone. 
the rest is ok. Including the movement.


----------



## KRedman

Odessa200 said:


> Not sure I like this dial. Looks redone.
> the rest is ok. Including the movement.


Thanks. I’ve had others that have looked like this, so I don’t know to be honest.


----------



## Odessa200

KRedman said:


> Thanks. I’ve had others that have looked like this, so I don’t know to be honest.


Printing the small text is the hardest. And the smallest text here is ‘cccp’ in the quality mark. All real dials have the next separated from the rest of the stamp. All the fakes have the cccp touching something. Then the ‘сделано в ссср’ text: is it me or the space between words is uneven? It is written like ‘сделано в ссср’. Then this super thick paint on the dial…. This is just my take. Lets see what other folks say. I was wrong before many times.


----------



## palletwheel

KRedman said:


> Thanks. I’ve had others that have looked like this, so I don’t know to be honest.


I agree with @Odessa200 about the thick paint. All wrong. The printing on these dials is flat. That includes the "сделано в ссср". It also isn't the correct font, and spacing of the "в" is off. On a real dial that text is very finely printed, different font. Here are my examples.


----------



## suuuuer

Recently discovered Russian watches and became more than a little enamored (the Luch labeled as #1 was the first example that caught my eye. None too sure if I would have purchased it and #4 after surveying the field. I've become pulled in by the more illustrative styles even though their authenticity is... Difficult to ascertain from the reading I've done in this thread.) 

Thought it would be prudent to confirm if I had wasted my money or not with you fine folks 

Let me note that watch 2a was purchased as a donor for the watch to the left of it as I had multiple sellers comment that it is an actually (even relatively speaking) rare piece. Because of that I wouldn't be surprised if Watch #3 had its dial repainted and touched up.


----------



## gp20

I think also the kredman's big zéro dial i's totally fake: the numbers and indexes are not flat but in relief.. They must be flat and brilliant with light.


----------



## dotti90

Two watches that i can't find matches for, is the first one just a made up dial? and the second one the hands don't seem to suit they are a blueish burnt metal but the lume looks kinda old.


----------



## KRedman

@Odessa200 @gp20 @palletwheel 


this is the response I got from the seller in Ukraine . Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know.

“Greetings.

I had 60 such watches. I bought them from an old man in Ukraine. He said that once upon a time he worked at this plant and brought them from Russia.

All original.

Best regard”


----------



## Odessa200

KRedman said:


> @Odessa200 @gp20 @palletwheel
> 
> 
> this is the response I got from the seller in Ukraine . Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know.
> 
> “Greetings.
> 
> I had 60 such watches. I bought them from an old man in Ukraine. He said that once upon a time he worked at this plant and brought them from Russia.
> 
> All original.
> 
> Best regard”
> 
> 
> ​


what do you want him to say? He maybe was fooled himself. As you can see several people believe the dial is wrong. The rest is up to you.


----------



## Odessa200

suuuuer said:


> View attachment 16429826
> 
> 
> 
> Recently discovered Russian watches and became more than a little enamored (the Luch labeled as #1 was the first example that caught my eye. None too sure if I would have purchased it and #4 after surveying the field. I've become pulled in by the more illustrative styles even though their authenticity is... Difficult to ascertain from the reading I've done in this thread.)
> 
> Thought it would be prudent to confirm if I had wasted my money or not with you fine folks
> 
> Let me note that watch 2a was purchased as a donor for the watch to the left of it as I had multiple sellers comment that it is an actually (even relatively speaking) rare piece. Because of that I wouldn't be surprised if Watch #3 had its dial repainted and touched up.


Welcome. Please post bigger photos. 2, 2a, 3 look correct. 1 and 4: i am not familiar with. Maybe someone else will chime in.


----------



## Odessa200

dotti90 said:


> Two watches that i can't find matches for, is the first one just a made up dial? and the second one the hands don't seem to suit they are a blueish burnt metal but the lume looks kinda old.


1st: correct late 80s Soviet pobeda. 
2nd: correct 60s Pobeda. Hands are freshly relumed. They are supposed to be blued.


----------



## KRedman

Odessa200 said:


> what do you want him to say? He maybe was fooled himself. As you can see several people believe the dial is wrong. The rest is up to you.


I agree with you, just providing info is all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## gp20

Bad glass for this 24h no ?


----------



## dotti90

Odessa200 said:


> 1st: correct late 80s Soviet pobeda.
> 2nd: correct 60s Pobeda. Hands are freshly relumed. They are supposed to be blued.


thankyou was just unsure as i did a bit of searching and couldn't seem to match them most of them had gold hands


----------



## Odessa200

dotti90 said:


> thankyou was just unsure as i did a bit of searching and couldn't seem to match them most of them had gold hands


You are right. I need to drink less. :-(. The golden hours come with the golden hands. Black hours come with the blued hands. I am sorry comrade.


----------



## Ligavesh

gp20 said:


> Bad glass for this 24h no ?


well bad is relative... let's say wrong glass (once an original brakes, it's almost impossible to find a replacement - unless you find a cheap broken down Raketa with the same glass)


----------



## gp20

Ligavesh said:


> well bad is relative... let's say wrong glass (once an original brakes, it's almost impossible to find a replacement - unless you find a cheap broken down Raketa with the same glass)


Yes, wrong glass... 
But i think i found my 24h graal... Nos full set. 85 bucks


----------



## Joseph17

Hi! I've come across this Kirovskie sputnik watch, but I have never seen one with hands like this (especially the second hand) and also the black arrows instead of the usual red line. Has anyone seen one like this before? Does it look fake or frankensteined? Thanks .


----------



## Odessa200

Joseph17 said:


> Hi! I've come across this Kirovskie sputnik watch, but I have never seen one with hands like this (especially the second hand) and also the black arrows instead of the usual red line. Has anyone seen one like this before? Does it look fake or frankensteined? Thanks .
> 
> View attachment 16432916
> View attachment 16432917


a franken watch. Real dial but spoiled because someone added the arrows. Wrong hands (all 3). Wrong crown. Wrong balance assembly (should be none shockproof). 
I hope this helps.


----------



## Joseph17

Odessa200 said:


> a franken watch. Real dial but spoiled because someone added the arrows. Wrong hands (all 3). Wrong crown. Wrong balance assembly (should be none shockproof).
> I hope this helps.


Thanks for the insight! I thought as much, thought there might be a slight chance the hands were real since I've seen them on a couple of other black dialled sputnik watches, but you're probably right. Nice to know that the dial is real though, I might continue with purchasing it since it is only approx £50 (~$70) and I don't mind about the crown, also I kind of like how the circle on the second hand sort of moves along arrows the like the red dot does on the other rarer sputnik models lol. Thanks for your help.


----------



## jimzilla

I had these two come in today, I purchased them as one of my watch guy's in Russia needed some money and they were dirt cheap and clean looking. I really do not know much about these. Your opinions will be appreciated.
If anyone has timegrapher settings that would be nice as well, thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

jimzilla said:


> I had these two come in today, I purchased them as one of my watch guy's in Russia needed some money and they were dirt cheap and clean looking. I really do not know much about these. Your opinions will be appreciated.
> If anyone has timegrapher settings that would be nice as well, thank you.


Raketa Jeans and early Poljot. Look legit. Raketa is 42 degrees and Poljot maybe 51.


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Pobeda?


























Interestingly I found a couple of similar but not quite the same ones on MrOatman's site:


















Also he writes 15 jewels, but on the movement of the one I'm looking it says 17 jewels.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Pobeda?
> 
> View attachment 16444319
> 
> View attachment 16444318
> 
> View attachment 16444317
> 
> 
> Interestingly I found a couple of similar but not quite the same ones on MrOatman's site:
> 
> View attachment 16444325
> 
> View attachment 16444326
> 
> 
> Also he writes 15 jewels, but on the movement of the one I'm looking it says 17 jewels.


franken. Dial is PChZ. Movement is ChChZ (and not Pobeda)


----------



## Zelgax

I already bought the watch, having only basic knowledge of watches In general. I wanna know more about it just in case I should return it.


----------



## Poekhali

Have a question for all of you more experienced folks. I saw this listing on eBay and after some back and forth, confirmed it was a “new” case. That’s obvious from the picture but it made me wonder about logistics. Where do the new cases come from? Are they selling enough of these to support the time and effort to make parts of a new watch? I saw a similar listing for ~$100 so the margins would seem to be small for doing this.


----------



## palletwheel

Poekhali said:


> Have a question for all of you more experienced folks. I saw this listing on eBay and after some back and forth, confirmed it was a “new” case. That’s obvious from the picture but it made me wonder about logistics. Where do the new cases come from? Are they selling enough of these to support the time and effort to make parts of a new watch? I saw a similar listing for ~$100 so the margins would seem to be small for doing this.
> View attachment 16450835


Case is most likely from China. As for economics, I assume from your location setting you come from the US. In Ukraine and Russia, people are very much poorer, and a Euro and US dollar means a lot and goes a very long way. Once you start to comprehend that all these recased/redialed Frankens are genuinely economically viable, the wealth disparity will really hit you.


----------



## Poekhali

palletwheel said:


> Case is most likely from China. As for economics, I assume from your location setting you come from the US. In Ukraine and Russia, people are very much poorer, and a Euro and US dollar means a lot and goes a very long way. Once you start to comprehend that all these recased/redialed Frankens are genuinely economically viable, the wealth disparity will really hit you.


Thanks. Excellent point. I’m from the US, but have spent enough years working with / in Ukraine and Russia to appreciate the income gap. If the listing sells for $200 then I can see the appeal of clearing $150 or so on the watch. Even at $50 profit it’s probably worth the effort

I was more wondering whether they sold enough of these to justify even making them. I assume (but don’t know) that you’d have to make a minimum order of dealing with a factory in China and you’d have to have that money up front. I’m not in that business though so merely ignorantly speculating. 

Maybe what I’m surprised by is that there is enough interest in vintage Soviet memorabilia to make this kind of thing work. Although with eBay it’s not like you are relying on tourists passing through the local market. 

I’m not planning to go into the recasting business myself, I’m just always curious how things “work.”


----------



## davidxls

So I lost my login here due to delating an old mail account I didn't think I was using......idiot. 
Anyways, I'm in search for a Kirovskie Type 1 watch and found this from what I have read should be from 1st SWF 1937, reading the marks on the movement. Comparing dial and movement from sources around the internet and here on WUS I can found movement like this with the same type of markings and parts, but it's a jungle and I thought I ask you guys here.


----------



## Odessa200

Zelgax said:


> I already bought the watch, having only basic knowledge of watches In general. I wanna know more about it just in case I should return it.
> View attachment 16450235
> View attachment 16450236
> View attachment 16450237
> 
> View attachment 16450240


Sorry, franken. Old movement placed into a new model raketa (new case, dial). Authentic parts but the movement is much older than the rest of the watch.


----------



## Odessa200

davidxls said:


> So I lost my login here due to delating an old mail account I didn't think I was using......idiot.
> Anyways, I'm in search for a Kirovskie Type 1 watch and found this from what I have read should be from 1st SWF 1937, reading the marks on the movement. Comparing dial and movement from sources around the internet and here on WUS I can found movement like this with the same type of markings and parts, but it's a jungle and I thought I ask you guys here.
> View attachment 16451252
> View attachment 16451253


good watch. This is a vintage replacement dial. Probably original dial got too old and this was fitted.


----------



## davidxls

Odessa200 said:


> good watch. This is a vintage replacement dial. Probably original dial got too old and this was fitted.


Thank you for your quick reply. May I ask how you can tell it's a replacement dial?


----------



## Wick3d.

Hi! I’d like opinions on the authenticity of this Chistopol Sputnik with brass disc insert. I am thinking the dial looks too clean to be original, but the markers do seem to have sharpish edges… I’ll ask for more photos in any case but at least the hands and case look good to me? Crown looks decent as well. Now, the movement does seem correct according to the references I have, though the blue stars do seem a bit odd… Any thoughts?

TIA!


----------



## Odessa200

davidxls said:


> Thank you for your quick reply. May I ask how you can tell it's a replacement dial?


because it is unbranded generic Kitovskie dial. All the dials that were installed in 1937 by 1st factory had the brand written on them.


----------



## Odessa200

Wick3d. said:


> Hi! I’d like opinions on the authenticity of this Chistopol Sputnik with brass disc insert. I am thinking the dial looks too clean to be original, but the markers do seem to have sharpish edges… I’ll ask for more photos in any case but at least the hands and case look good to me? Crown looks decent as well. Now, the movement does seem correct according to the references I have, though the blue stars do seem a bit odd… Any thoughts?
> 
> TIA!
> 
> View attachment 16451452
> 
> View attachment 16451453


fake dial and hands. Wrong balance: should be shockproofed. Case should be chromed.


----------



## davidxls

Odessa200 said:


> because it is unbranded generic Kitovskie dial. All the dials that were installed in 1937 by 1st factory had the brand written on them.


Ok, I read in a pdf found here on the forum that most dials didn't have a logo. I do not know what the source is though.


----------



## Odessa200

davidxls said:


> Ok, I read in a pdf found here on the forum that most dials didn't have a logo. I do not know what the source is though.
> View attachment 16451622


This is just 1 opinion. Maybe the author literally meant ‘just logo’. the dial would have factory name (no logo). I strongly doubt that the watches made by a factory would have a ‘blank’ dial. During the war time: yes. But not in 1937. This is just my opinion of course.


----------



## davidxls

Odessa200 said:


> This is just 1 opinion. Maybe the author literally meant ‘just logo’. the dial would have factory name (no logo). I strongly doubt that the watches made by a factory would have a ‘blank’ dial. During the war time: yes. But not in 1937. This is just my opinion of course.


Yes, maybe you are right. Though I must say that I've seen various versions with and without printed dials produced before and after war. But maybe it was not unusual that the dials were changed to generic ones without factory names.


----------



## Odessa200

davidxls said:


> Yes, maybe you are right. Though I must say that I've seen various versions with and without printed dials produced before and after war. But maybe it was not unusual that the dials were changed to generic ones without factory names.


these watches are not waterproof. If the owner of the watch got into rain a few times (and these were the watches for military commanders that frequently were exposed to various elements) the original dial can get damaged. Same caliber was used by several watch factories so it only made sense to print generic dials that can be fitted to any watch with this caliber. This is what I think. I doubt that any watch made at the factory in 1937 would be made with a simple dial that bears no mark of the brand or factory.


----------



## Chascomm

Poekhali said:


> Have a question for all of you more experienced folks. I saw this listing on eBay and after some back and forth, confirmed it was a “new” case. That’s obvious from the picture but it made me wonder about logistics. Where do the new cases come from? Are they selling enough of these to support the time and effort to make parts of a new watch? I saw a similar listing for ~$100 so the margins would seem to be small for doing this.
> View attachment 16450835


‘New’ case might just mean never used until now. Watches identical to this (hooded-lug case, colourful dial, USSR markings) were being assembled at the Raketa factory immediately prior to the company being bought by the current owners.

More clues may be revealed by a picture of the back of the watch (to see if it is a reproduction case) and the movement (to see if it is original or converted).


----------



## Odessa200

Chascomm said:


> ‘New’ case might just mean never used until now. Watches identical to this (hooded-lug case, colourful dial, USSR markings) were being assembled at the Raketa factory immediately prior to the company being bought by the current owners.
> 
> More clues may be revealed by a picture of the back of the watch (to see if it is a reproduction case) and the movement (to see if it is original or converted).


this was for sale a few days ago. About 40$ a piece. this is a market price from a reseller. Obviously people who assemble these watches do not pay market price for parts. They buy in bulk from watchmakers who go out of business and I would imagine they pay no more than 20$ a piece.
These are ‘parts for repairs’ that were produced and sent out to all the various repairs shops across USSR. A bigger portion of NOS watches for sale these days were assembled quite recently from parts like these…


----------



## Brblesh

What is your opinion on this Okean? It looks to me like an early 1980s model with new white lume.


----------



## Zelgax

Odessa200 said:


> Sorry, franken. Old movement placed into a new model raketa (new case, dial). Authentic parts but the movement is much older than the rest of the watch.


Would you say the watch is still good and worth keeping?? or should I definitely return it?


----------



## Odessa200

Zelgax said:


> Would you say the watch is still good and worth keeping?? or should I definitely return it?


depends. It is a clean looking watch. Old movement frequently more robust and reliable. It can be a good watch to wear daily. 
Plus I am not sure you have grounds for return. You saw what you are buying.


----------



## Victorv

Hello guys, how are you?

Someone knows if the caseback on my conmemorative Komandirskie is right?

Thanks in advance


----------



## Avidfan

Victorv said:


> Hello guys, how are you?
> 
> Someone knows if the caseback on my conmemorative Komandirskie is right?
> 
> Thanks in advance


Hello Victorv, that's a "big bird" caseback used from approx. 1995-2000, something like the caseback shown below would be more appropriate...


----------



## Victorv

Avidfan said:


> Hello Victorv, that's a "big bird" caseback used from approx. 1995-2000, something like the caseback shown below would be more appropriate...
> View attachment 16456955


Thank you so much comrade, so i'm going to search one like this


----------



## gp20

Hi comrades ! What do you think about this Raketa 24h ? My only doubt is the dial...


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks newer than the ring.


----------



## merohero

Hello, dad got gifted this poljot a while ago, after doing some research I'm starting to feel a bit sad because this may be franken (. any thoughts?


----------



## Odessa200

merohero said:


> Hello, dad got gifted this poljot a while ago, after doing some research I'm starting to feel a bit sad because this may be franken (. any thoughts?
> View attachment 16458802
> 
> View attachment 16458803
> View attachment 16458801


Welcome! You need to do more research!  This is a nice Poljot. No issues.


----------



## merohero

Thanks for the reply Odessa! What made me wonder about it being fake was the ''de luxe'' not being in capital. Maybe im just being paranoid lol


----------



## AaParker

merohero said:


> Thanks for the reply Odessa! What made me wonder about it being fake was the ''de luxe'' not being in capital. Maybe im just being paranoid lol


It's a nice watch! As @Odessa200 indicates, there don't seem to be any issues; here's mine as an example. The lower-case *de luxe* is correct.


----------



## Odessa200

merohero said:


> Thanks for the reply Odessa! What made me wonder about it being fake was the ''de luxe'' not being in capital. Maybe im just being paranoid lol


and why you believe it should be in capital if every catalog shows it in lower case?  Just an example.

on a side note: it would be so easy if we can tell fake from real by the case of the text. Usually fakers at least capable of coping the case of the text…


----------



## merohero

Ty guys 😊😊


----------



## frogles

Dear Experts,
your inputs are really appreciated.
thank you in advance


----------



## Odessa200

frogles said:


> Dear Experts,
> your inputs are really appreciated.
> thank you in advance
> 
> 
> View attachment 16461806
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16461807


I know of this model.


----------



## frogles

Odessa200 said:


> I know of this model.
> View attachment 16461885
> 
> View attachment 16461887


your photos show a diff case, right?


----------



## Odessa200

frogles said:


> your photos show a diff case, right?


yes. And different hands. On your watch you can see how out of place the hands look like (compared to the indexes on the dial). Then the dial and hands are gilded and the case is chromed (and different shape)… I would say this is a franken watch


----------



## frogles

Odessa200 said:


> yes. And different hands. On your watch you can see how out of place the hands look like (compared to the indexes on the dial). Then the dial and hands are gilded and the case is chromed (and different shape)… I would say this is a franken watch


thank you so much


----------



## jimzilla

I had a couple of Komanderskie sub dial watches come in today and I would like to authenticate the watches, bracelets and paperwork. Says antimag on the dial face and has antimag stem but no protection on caseback and caseback seems thin?
Thanks so much comrades, James.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I had a couple of Komanderskie sub dial watches come in today and I would like to authenticate the watches, bracelets and paperwork. Says antimag on the dial face and has antimag stem but no protection on caseback and caseback seems thin?
> Thanks so much comrades, James.


Hello James 

I would classify these as Komandirskie branded Amphibia, both are Amphibia 020697, both look to be mostly correct although I would prefer to see a balance cock that matched the other two bridges (no beveled edge) on the movement shown.

I wouldn't worry about the bracelets too much, one is Vostok which may have come with the watch, the other is from another company and was probably fitted later.

No serial number on the caseback would indicate that they were made in 1993 or later (which matches the passport), the caseback on these is not as domed as on an auto caseback and the anti-magnetic shielding comes in the form of a removeable metal plate with three tabs (see pic below)...

I hope this helps a little 









(Image eBay)


----------



## jimzilla

Hello Avidfan I hope you do well sir, It has been a while since I posted a watch for your critique and as always thank you so much for your comments, it is very much appriciated my friend, best regards, James.


----------



## TallyNole

Hi All,

Thank you in advance. I wanted a general opinion on this watch for originality. It looks to me circa 1987, and all (or mostly) original, with possible exception of re-lume.


----------



## Odessa200

TallyNole said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thank you in advance. I wanted a general opinion on this watch for originality. It looks to me circa 1987, and all (or mostly) original, with possible exception of re-lume.
> View attachment 16466370
> View attachment 16466371
> View attachment 16466372
> View attachment 16466373


welcome. Take a look at the shape of the lumed portion of the hands. Do you see that it is rectangular? Then take a look at some authentic Soviet watches. Not rectangular. So the hands are replaced (with the modern variation). Lets see what else is picked by other members


----------



## TallyNole

Odessa200 said:


> welcome. Take a look at the shape of the lumed portion of the hands. Do you see that it is rectangular? Then take a look at some authentic Soviet watches. Not rectangular. So the hands are replaced (with the modern variation). Lets see what else is picked by other members


Hi Odessa,
Thank you! I know that’s the case on the hands of the Szturmanskie with 3133 movements, but I think I’ve only seen this style on the 31659 movement watches.


----------



## Odessa200

TallyNole said:


> Hi Odessa,
> Thank you! I know that’s the case on the hands of the Szturmanskie with 3133 movements, but I think I’ve only seen this style on the 31659 movement watches.


I think you are right! I take my previous comment back. Lets see what the Chrono experts say.


----------



## TallyNole

Odessa200 said:


> I think you are right! I take my previous comment back. Lets see what the Chrono experts say.


Don’t worry Odessa, it’s why I’m asking. It’s so damned hard to tell!


----------



## Wick3d.

Hi again! Just getting started looking for an Okean… I see the seconds hand is definitely wrong. Anything else? Thanks in advance, comrades.


----------



## elsoldemayo

Fake dial and never seen that inner bezel before


----------



## TallyNole

Hi,

The movement is too late for the watch, likely 1993-1994. The watch was discontinued no later than 1990 I understand. I date the movement from the balance wheel and the SU mark.



Wick3d. said:


> Hi again! Just getting started looking for an Okean… I see the seconds hand is definitely wrong. Anything else? Thanks in advance, comrades.
> View attachment 16479243
> 
> View attachment 16479244


----------



## TallyNole

The bezel is from a later civilian re-issue i believe. That's likely the whole watch based on the movement. 



elsoldemayo said:


> Fake dial and never seen that inner bezel before


----------



## MattBrace

TallyNole said:


> The bezel is from a later civilian re-issue i believe. That's likely the whole watch based on the movement.


The bezel ring is from a later Soviet era Sturmanskie 3133, commonly known as The 'Sports bezel'
A reproduction Okeah dial and modern hand set.

Cheers...


----------



## MattBrace

TallyNole said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thank you in advance. I wanted a general opinion on this watch for originality. It looks to me circa 1987, and all (or mostly) original, with possible exception of re-lume.
> View attachment 16466370
> View attachment 16466371
> View attachment 16466372
> View attachment 16466373


Aside from the paint loss on the sweep hand, minute counting hand and the poor re lume work on the hands and dial, the rest is original.

Cheers...


----------



## jbtb0777

Hey all! Have been looking for a Raketa Copernicus, and I found this piece for sale online. Is it a frankenwatch? Thanks so much!


----------



## Odessa200

jbtb0777 said:


> Hey all! Have been looking for a Raketa Copernicus, and I found this piece for sale online. Is it a frankenwatch? Thanks so much!


Welcome! I would be keep looking. Wrong seconds hand and crystal. Given no photo of the movement I would assume it has issues as well.


----------



## jbtb0777

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome! I would be keep looking. Wrong seconds hand and crystal. Given no photo of the movement I would assume it has issues as well.


Thank you so much! I'm also looking at a few more listings online, do any of these look good? Trying to get a better with telling frankenwatches from original pieces... thanks for all the help!


Raketa copernic copernicus lunar eclipse ORIGINAL USSR 1980's vintage wristwatch (Wrong hand?)
Raketa Copernic
Rare Collectible USSR RUS WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC KOPERNIK GREY DIAL 836 SERVICED
USSR Rare Mechanical Watch Raketa "Kopernic" "Copernic" Cal.2609.NP
Rare USSR WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC Copernicus Sun and Moon Soviet Serviced (Wrong face?)
Raketa Kopernik Copernic Vintage Soviet Watch Sun Moon Hands Copernicus
RAKETA Kopernik Copernic Copernicus RUSSIA VINTAGE Soviet Watch Mechanical


----------



## TallyNole

I think a couple of these are good, but at the moment, they're either barred from shipping to the US, you're barred from paying them, or there may not be a realistic chance of delivery any time soon.

Are you looking for original 1980s models, or reissues?


you might compare the styles to these: Space Themed Watches | Watches of the USSR




jbtb0777 said:


> Thank you so much! I'm also looking at a few more listings online, do any of these look good? Trying to get a better with telling frankenwatches from original pieces... thanks for all the help!
> 
> 
> Raketa copernic copernicus lunar eclipse ORIGINAL USSR 1980's vintage wristwatch (Wrong hand?)
> Raketa Copernic
> Rare Collectible USSR RUS WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC KOPERNIK GREY DIAL 836 SERVICED
> USSR Rare Mechanical Watch Raketa "Kopernic" "Copernic" Cal.2609.NP
> Rare USSR WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC Copernicus Sun and Moon Soviet Serviced (Wrong face?)
> Raketa Kopernik Copernic Vintage Soviet Watch Sun Moon Hands Copernicus
> RAKETA Kopernik Copernic Copernicus RUSSIA VINTAGE Soviet Watch Mechanical


----------



## jbtb0777

TallyNole said:


> Are you looking for original 1980s models, or reissues?


I'm looking for the Raketa Copernicus in particular. I have the version in black, and would like to add the light version to my collection as well.


----------



## Odessa200

jbtb0777 said:


> Thank you so much! I'm also looking at a few more listings online, do any of these look good? Trying to get a better with telling frankenwatches from original pieces... thanks for all the help!
> 
> 
> Raketa copernic copernicus lunar eclipse ORIGINAL USSR 1980's vintage wristwatch (Wrong hand?)
> Raketa Copernic
> Rare Collectible USSR RUS WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC KOPERNIK GREY DIAL 836 SERVICED
> USSR Rare Mechanical Watch Raketa "Kopernic" "Copernic" Cal.2609.NP
> Rare USSR WATCH RAKETA COPERNIC Copernicus Sun and Moon Soviet Serviced (Wrong face?)
> Raketa Kopernik Copernic Vintage Soviet Watch Sun Moon Hands Copernicus
> RAKETA Kopernik Copernic Copernicus RUSSIA VINTAGE Soviet Watch Mechanical


1) wrong crystal, hand, balance bridge
2) HA movement instad of HP
3) wrong hand and crystal
4) maybe wrong crystal
5) wrong crystal
6) wrong hand, crown, movement
7) too little photos to make an educated decision

but as mentioned above: how do you intend to pay for them? All Russian based: not payable/shippable. All Ukranian: realistically nobody will be shipping them for months to come…. I would for sure ask the seller 1st.


----------



## jbtb0777

Odessa200 said:


> All Ukranian: realistically nobody will be shipping them for months to come…. I would for sure ask the seller 1st.


Yes, indeed. I've been asking each of these sellers if they're shipping, and many have responded that their location has so far been safe.

This is one such listing where the seller has confirmed they can ship. Does this look like a frankenwatch?


----------



## Odessa200

jbtb0777 said:


> Yes, indeed. I've been asking each of these sellers if they're shipping, and many have responded that their location has so far been safe.
> 
> This is one such listing where the seller has confirmed they can ship. Does this look like a frankenwatch?


Good watch. I see no issues.


----------



## ampers

Hi all!
Trying to find a nice Poljot de luxe for my BF his birthday. This forum has already been a big help with looking for the obvious signs of franken watches - so big thanks already!
Now I found this watch: ORIGINAL Rare Vintage Wrist Watch Poljot de Luxe cal. 2209 1MChZ | eBay - but the ad says plexiglass and when i wrote to the seller he said that plexiglass is the original. Is that true tough - I thought everyone talks about crystal but maybe that is just a different name for the same type of glass? Thanks in advance


----------



## Odessa200

ampers said:


> Hi all!
> Trying to find a nice Poljot de luxe for my BF his birthday. This forum has already been a big help with looking for the obvious signs of franken watches - so big thanks already!
> Now I found this watch: ORIGINAL Rare Vintage Wrist Watch Poljot de Luxe cal. 2209 1MChZ | eBay - but the ad says plexiglass and when i wrote to the seller he said that plexiglass is the original. Is that true tough - I thought everyone talks about crystal but maybe that is just a different name for the same type of glass? Thanks in advance


Good watch. All seems right. Plexiglass is expected. Almost all Soviet watches have it. We call it crystal but it is plastic. If you can, ask the seller for the side photo (not at the angle) so we can see the shape and hight of the crystal. It looks a tad too tall but would be good to see a side photo. No other issues I see.


----------



## ampers

Odessa200 said:


> Good watch. All seems right. Plexiglass is expected. Almost all Soviet watches have it. We call it crystal but it is plastic. If you can, ask the seller for the side photo (not at the angle) so we can see the shape and hight of the crystal. It looks a tad too tall but would be good to see a side photo. No other issues I see.


Will do that! Thanks for confirming that crystal means plastic - got confused by that


----------



## ampers

ampers said:


> Will do that! Thanks for confirming that crystal means plastic - got confused by that


This is the photo i got


----------



## Odessa200

ampers said:


> This is the photo i got
> View attachment 16487514


looks good to me. Good luck!


----------



## ampers

Odessa200 said:


> looks good to me. Good luck!


Thanks a lot! Taking the leap


----------



## jbtb0777

Hey all, is this a frankenwatch? The hands look a bit off, but everything else looks fine to me...









⭐RARE VINTAGE Soviet wrist watch RAKETA Kopernik mechanical 2609.HA Made in USSR | eBay


HA Made in USSR 1980. Condition: The watch is in working order. Minor scratches on the body and glass (can be seen in the photo).



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

jbtb0777 said:


> Hey all, is this a frankenwatch? The hands look a bit off, but everything else looks fine to me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ⭐RARE VINTAGE Soviet wrist watch RAKETA Kopernik mechanical 2609.HA Made in USSR | eBay
> 
> 
> HA Made in USSR 1980. Condition: The watch is in working order. Minor scratches on the body and glass (can be seen in the photo).
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


the minute hand supposed to be black. The crystal looks wrong but hard to tell. The rest looks right to me.


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Your advice is highly appreciated.


----------



## EnjoyWatches

I have never bought from this seller so I would really like your advice on this one: is it real of franken?


----------



## Odessa200

EnjoyWatches said:


> I have never bought from this seller so I would really like your advice on this one: is it real of franken?
> 
> View attachment 16494953
> View attachment 16494954
> View attachment 16494955
> View attachment 16494956


I believe the brown dial with gilded hands belong to the gilded case. Then the black insert does not really fit the brown dial. I would say: franken


----------



## Goldtop 57

Hi guys,

is this watch really a Wostok from the 60s?





__





Beautiful BLUE Vostokred datemechanical from 1960 - Etsy.de


Very easy you can find a definition of Vostok watch - Vostok is a Russian brand of mechanical watches that are produced in Chistopol, in the Republic of Tatarstan. Watches are made mainly for soldiers and officers … also, you can see all the other information - from the history of the factory




www.etsy.com





Any input appreciated!
Thanks!
Oliver


----------



## Odessa200

Goldtop 57 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> is this watch really a Wostok from the 60s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Beautiful BLUE Vostokred datemechanical from 1960 - Etsy.de
> 
> 
> Very easy you can find a definition of Vostok watch - Vostok is a Russian brand of mechanical watches that are produced in Chistopol, in the Republic of Tatarstan. Watches are made mainly for soldiers and officers … also, you can see all the other information - from the history of the factory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any input appreciated!
> Thanks!
> Oliver


it is a nice Vostok but from late 70s. Cheers


----------



## Goldtop 57

Thanks a lot. I bought it and will show it in the appropriate thread when (if?) it arrives. Nothing to mod, unfortunately


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16495249
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the brown dial with gilded hands belong to the gilded case. Then the black insert does not really fit the brown dial. I would say: franken


Tnanks!


----------



## Goldtop 57

One more:





__





Wostok Vostok Komandirskie Amphibian Chistopol Handgelenk - Etsy.de


Wostok Vostok Komandirskie Amphibian Chistopol Handgelenk mechanische Uhr sowjetisch/Udssr Russland Original und Autentik. Hergestellt in UdSSR. Läuft gut und hält zeitgenau Von Uhrenmeister gewartet. Maßnahmen: Gehäuse Durchmesser (mit Krone): 43 mm Gehäuse Durchmesser (ohne Krone): 40 mm Uhren




www.etsy.com





Looks like a 2409, which puts it in the 80s. But somehow the dial appears too clean, too new. Or what do you think?

Thanks again!
Oliver


----------



## Odessa200

Goldtop 57 said:


> One more:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wostok Vostok Komandirskie Amphibian Chistopol Handgelenk - Etsy.de
> 
> 
> Wostok Vostok Komandirskie Amphibian Chistopol Handgelenk mechanische Uhr sowjetisch/Udssr Russland Original und Autentik. Hergestellt in UdSSR. Läuft gut und hält zeitgenau Von Uhrenmeister gewartet. Maßnahmen: Gehäuse Durchmesser (mit Krone): 43 mm Gehäuse Durchmesser (ohne Krone): 40 mm Uhren
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a 2409, which puts it in the 80s. But somehow the dial appears too clean, too new. Or what do you think?
> 
> Thanks again!
> Oliver


fake dial for 375 rubles! Shame on this lying seller for claiming ‘Original and Autentic. Made in USSR’.


----------



## giucap

Odessa200 said:


> fake dial for 375 rubles! Shame on this lying seller for claiming ‘Original and Autentic. Made in USSR’.


In my opinion if someone wants aesthetics it is not a problem to put a fake dial I have seen high quality fake raketa / vostok the bad thing is to use the fake dial and sell them as originals; and the troubling fact is that counterfeiters are getting better every day and some dials are nearly identical, except for tiny little details.


----------



## Odessa200

giucap said:


> In my opinion if someone wants aesthetics it is not a problem to put a fake dial I have seen high quality fake raketa / vostok the bad thing is to use the fake dial and sell them as originals; and the troubling fact is that counterfeiters are getting better every day and some dials are nearly identical, except for tiny little details.


1) it is always a problem when people do not tell the Truth. Every lot with a fake dial must clearly say so: newly made dial. Some sellers do that and I have no problem with them. People who are not collectors and who want a nice looking watch can buy such lots and enjoy them.
2) these watches have almost no value for collectors. Re-selling it later will be difficult. Buyer should be aware. People buy new fake Rolexes but almost nobody buys used fake Rolex . Same is her.


----------



## SvenHakh

I’m looking for a Raketa Big Zero. I’ve posted a pair of watches. I realize the 2nd watch has incorrect hands. Is anything else blatantly wrong? What about the first watch other than what appears to be an incorrect crystal?



















Second Watch (with incorrect hands, but what appears to be a correct dial/crystal?):


----------



## Brblesh

SvenHakh said:


> I’m looking for a Raketa Big Zero. I’ve posted a pair of watches. I realize the 2nd watch has incorrect hands. Is anything else blatantly wrong? What about the first watch other than what appears to be an incorrect crystal?
> 
> 
> View attachment 16500520
> 
> View attachment 16500519
> 
> 
> Second Watch (with incorrect hands, but what appears to be a correct dial/crystal?):
> 
> View attachment 16500530
> 
> View attachment 16500533
> 
> View attachment 16500531


I am not an expert, but it seems to me that the 2nd one has also a wrong dial. Compare the font of "Raketa". Also look at the "0", on the second watch, the font is wrong and it seems to have that thick ink which makes it 3D.
Considering the crystal on the first one, maybe a side shot would be good to tell.
Again, not nearly an expert, so just my 2 cents...

Here is i think a good guide which can be helpful to filter out some fakes on your search: https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/raketa/big-zero/


----------



## Brblesh

Hello everyone. Can anyone help me with these two Zlatoust divers? They should be 1970's models. What i have noticed is that the second watch seems to have a chromium plated brass case. On the first one i cannot see such marks of brass showing under the plating. I know that originaly they had steel cases, but i found a post on this forum with a theory that during the 70's after the discontinuation of the original ones, some where made with brass cases, but there was no evidence of it.
So in general, what are your thoughts on these two, could they be original?


----------



## Odessa200

Brblesh said:


> Hello everyone. Can anyone help me with these two Zlatoust divers? They should be 1970's models. What i have noticed is that the second watch seems to have a chromium plated brass case. On the first one i cannot see such marks of brass showing under the plating. I know that originaly they had steel cases, but i found a post on this forum with a theory that during the 70's after the discontinuation of the original ones, some where made with brass cases, but there was no evidence of it.
> So in general, what are your thoughts on these two, could they be original?
> 
> View attachment 16501038
> View attachment 16501039
> View attachment 16501040


look original to me


----------



## SvenHakh

Brblesh said:


> Also look at the "0", on the second watch, the font is wrong and it seems to have that thick ink which makes it 3D.


Its my understanding the edges should be crisp and have some depth because they were masked or applied. Overly flat or fuzziness would not be a good sign.


----------



## affeg

Is this Raketa perpetual calendar real or a franken?


----------



## Odessa200

affeg said:


> Is this Raketa perpetual calendar real or a franken?
> 
> View attachment 16501512
> View attachment 16501514


 Not a 100% sure, but I would expect the gilded case and gilded hands for the dial with gilded indexes


----------



## Brblesh

Odessa200 said:


> look original to me


Thank you very much for your reply.
So to your knowledge, they did make them with brass cases during the 70's?


----------



## Goldtop 57

Hello again.

As much as I know about Vostoks, as little to nothing I know of Zim watches and what they should look like inside and out. Found this one and I wonder if you can tell me whether it's original or not, what kind of movement should be inside and anything else that comes up....

The seller sent me a pic of the movement, it's a plain Zim 2602. 

Your help is appreciated, as always!









ZIM USSR Armbanduhr - Etsy.de


This Armbanduhren für Frauen item by RetroStoreUaByVitaly has 3 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 29. Jun 2022




www.etsy.com





Oliver


----------



## Odessa200

Goldtop 57 said:


> Hello again.
> 
> As much as I know about Vostoks, as little to nothing I know of Zim watches and what they should look like inside and out. Found this one and I wonder if you can tell me whether it's original or not, what kind of movement should be inside and anything else that comes up....
> 
> The seller sent me a pic of the movement, it's a plain Zim 2602.
> 
> Your help is appreciated, as always!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ZIM USSR Armbanduhr - Etsy.de
> 
> 
> This Armbanduhren für Frauen item by RetroStoreUaByVitaly has 3 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from Ukraine. Listed on 29. Jun 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.etsy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oliver


I am guessing a bit here: the catalog images of Zims in this case show different dials and different hands (skinny hands). So I would think this one s franken.


----------



## jimzilla

I am curious if the passport is correct for this watch, It has a 2409 movement and stainless case.
thank you in advance for the effort, James.


----------



## Avidfan

jimzilla said:


> I am curious if the passport is correct for this watch, It has a 2409 movement and stainless case.
> thank you in advance for the effort, James.
> 
> View attachment 16505357
> View attachment 16505358


Hello James,

Yes it's the correct passport for an Amphibia 020697 dated 12 July 1993, here's the catalogue image showing a Soviet 020697 from the 1993 catalogue...


----------



## jimzilla

Thanks so much Avidfan. Very much appreciated sir.


----------



## owegner

Heya, 
Newbie here. Wondering if anyone can tell me if this Vostok Komandirskie is legit? Pretty beat up for sure, but looked cool to me. Any insights are greatly appreciated!


----------



## Avidfan

owegner said:


> Heya,
> Newbie here. Wondering if anyone can tell me if this Vostok Komandirskie is legit? Pretty beat up for sure, but looked cool to me. Any insights are greatly appreciated!
> View attachment 16507205
> View attachment 16507206
> View attachment 16507210


This is a fairly recent VDV Komandirskie in a type 43 case, with chrome finish 1, and with dial code 287, and bezel code 21, so it's a 431287-21, and from those short lume hands and the caseback design it would have been made around 2004 or perhaps a little later...

(Welcome to the forum btw )


----------



## owegner

Avidfan said:


> This is a fairly recent VDV Komandirskie in a type 43 case, with chrome finish 1, and with dial code 287, and bezel code 21, so it's a 431287-21, and from those short lume hands and the caseback design it would have been made around 2004 or perhaps a little later...
> 
> (Welcome to the forum btw )


Awesome, thank you so much!


----------



## Brblesh

Hello everyone. Can someone help me and take a look at this NVCh-30? It is a 2nd gen with paddle hands, seems ok to me. They are quite expensive, so i would like some expert opinion before considering it.


----------



## Goldtop 57

Odessa200 said:


> I am guessing a bit here: the catalog images of Zims in this case show different dials and different hands (skinny hands). So I would think this one s franken.


Is there a source for old Zim catalogues? I have many old russian catalogues as PDF, but Zim is not represented.

Cheers,
Oliver


----------



## Odessa200

Goldtop 57 said:


> Is there a source for old Zim catalogues? I have many old russian catalogues as PDF, but Zim is not represented.
> 
> Cheers,
> Oliver


Here you can find the only known zim catalog from the 1983





Каталоги часов СССР с 1934 года | ussr-watch.com


Страница для бесплатного скачивания каталогов часов СССР. Представлены каталоги советских часов с 1953 года. Раздел постоянно обновляется!




ussr-watch.com


----------



## MattBrace

Brblesh said:


> Hello everyone. Can someone help me and take a look at this NVCh-30? It is a 2nd gen with paddle hands, seems ok to me. They are quite expensive, so i would like some expert opinion before considering it.
> 
> View attachment 16508922
> View attachment 16508923
> View attachment 16508924
> View attachment 16508925
> View attachment 16508926


Nothing much wrong, new lume work on all hands.

Cheers...


----------



## RedFroggy

Tovarishchi, 

What do you make of that Radio-Room ? Franken I guess ? 










Generaliskie dial with correct movement & bezel, but wrong case & wrong hands ?
Thanks vm for your expert opinion


----------



## Brblesh

MattBrace said:


> Nothing much wrong, new lume work on all hands.
> 
> Cheers...


Thank you very much. I notice the relume now that you say, but it actually seems quite well done.


----------



## giucap

RedFroggy said:


> Tovarishchi,
> 
> What do you make of that Radio-Room ? Franken I guess ?
> Generaliskie dial with correct movement & bezel, but wrong case & wrong hands ?
> Thanks vm for your expert opinion


Generaliskie might be found in amphibian case, but with the same hands of the 091 case.
The movent also should be marked as su, if you have it it's easy to find parts in order to restore it to his original conditions.


----------



## RedFroggy

giucap said:


> Generaliskie might be found in amphibian case, but with the same hands of the 091 case.
> The movent also should be marked as su, if you have it it's easy to find parts in order to restore it to his original conditions.


Thanks very much for looking at it Guicap 

I was mistaken as I thought the only legit “Generalskie R Room” was of the pattern of the one on the left hand side.










So, to sum-up, the Generalskie Radio Room dial can be found :

- in both the usual expected 091 case , but also in the 420 case as this one ? I thought only the Albatros RR dial could be found in round 020 case ?

- but only with both minutes & hours “sword“ type hand, not “sword +arrow” like mine ?

- bezel without the luminous pip is the only correct Generalkie RR bezel ?

- the movement is on 2416B “SU” ? I thought 2416 “RUS” could be possible as I read that the watch was produced as late as 1995 ?

Once again , thanks for your help.


----------



## giucap

RedFroggy said:


> Thanks very much for looking at it Guicap
> 
> I was mistaken as I thought the only legit “Generalskie R Room” was of the pattern of the one on the left hand side.
> 
> 
> 
> So, to sum-up, the Generalskie Radio Room dial can be found :
> 
> 1) in both the usual expected 091 case , but also in the 420 case as this one ? I thought only the Albatros RR dial could be found in round 020 case ?
> 
> 2) but only with both minutes & hours “sword“ type hand, not “sword +arrow” like mine ?
> 
> 3) bezel without the luminous pip is the only correct Generalkie RR bezel ?
> 
> 4) the movement is on 2416B “SU” ? I thought 2416 “RUS” could be possible as I read that the watch was produced as late as 1995 ?
> 
> Once again , thanks for your help.


Your welcome, I love generalskie and I have studies and collected them in the latest 2 years the only 100% correct thing with them is: "there are no catalogue or guide lines to follow"; despite that I'll answer your question as best as I can:
1) most of the generalskie are considered correct if in 091 or 420 cases and some respectable collectors found them in 270 case;
2) in the 99% of cases generalskie have sword type hand regardless of the case (some could be found with the red dot amphibian hand I don't agree that they are legit);
3) in the 99% of cases despite being in amphibian case they have no luminous dot in the bezel;
4) mostly if they have "B CCCP" at 6, they have a su movent desipite being produced around 92/93; there are some generalskie "in between dial" I personally have a generalskie rising star with no "B CCCP" at 6 and in my opinion they might be correct both with SU and RUS movement.

Summing up, we know very little about generalskie and we don't have a real guide so I mostly suggest to choose a personal line and try to follow it for all your generalskie.


----------



## JacobC

Seeing some dials with this blue logo on it. Anyone know?


----------



## Odessa200

JacobC said:


> Seeing some dials with this blue logo on it. Anyone know?
> 
> View attachment 16513979


yes, Renaissance cooperative was one of such small companies formed in the late 80s at PChZ. If you ask me: hey just ruined the dial. Their logo (especially in blue) does not belong here. Just my taste obviously…


----------



## JacobC

Odessa200 said:


> yes, Renaissance cooperative was one of such small companies formed in the late 80s at PChZ. If you ask me: hey just ruined the dial. Their logo (especially in blue) does not belong here. Just my taste obviously…


No I agree with you, it's totally out of place on the dial which is why I found it so odd.


----------



## RedFroggy

giucap said:


> Your welcome, I love generalskie and I have studies and collected them in the latest 2 years the only 100% correct thing with them is: "there are no catalogue or guide lines to follow"; despite that I'll answer your question as best as I can:
> 1) most of the generalskie are considered correct if in 091 or 420 cases and some respectable collectors found them in 270 case;
> 2) in the 99% of cases generalskie have sword type hand regardless of the case (some could be found with the red dot amphibian hand I don't agree that they are legit);
> 3) in the 99% of cases despite being in amphibian case they have no luminous dot in the bezel;
> 4) mostly if they have "B CCCP" at 6, they have a su movent desipite being produced around 92/93; there are some generalskie "in between dial" I personally have a generalskie rising star with no "B CCCP" at 6 and in my opinion they might be correct both with SU and RUS movement.
> 
> Summing up, we know very little about generalskie and we don't have a real guide so I mostly suggest to choose a personal line and try to follow it for all your generalskie.



Thanks ever so much Guicap for taking the time to give me such a comprehensive answer . Previously I saw Generalskie with KGB dial in 420 case and I did not know RR dials found their way in those case as well , I thought they existed only in 091.
I very much appreciate you sharing your knowledge and observations


----------



## palletwheel

One of my Ukrainian dealers is still selling watches! And he will ship, as always for free, UkrPoshta! To support this effort (and what's left of the Ukrainian economy) I'm looking at two watches to buy. First up, a Luch. I think it's good! But opinions very welcome.


----------



## palletwheel

Next is this Poljot. The if you can read the inscription on the back it is outrageously apropos. I think the watch is probably OK, but once again opinions are appreciated. If I actually receive this, I'll post it with the translation. I'm not going to start anything political here, but for the record I'm cheering on the blue and yellow.


----------



## Odessa200

both watches above are fine. Good luck!


----------



## giucap

JacobC said:


> Seeing some dials with this blue logo on it. Anyone know?


I have seen some zeros with renaissance drawind there are 3/4 version I know at the moment. 
Quite nice logo but they ruined the semplicity and clear look of the raketa zero IMHO.


----------



## affeg

What do you guys think of this Poljot? I thinks it's real but I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## MattBrace

affeg said:


> What do you guys think of this Poljot? I thinks it's real but I'm not 100% sure.
> View attachment 16536434
> View attachment 16536433
> View attachment 16536435


Some substituted parts in the movement, the sweep hand is a modern replacement. 

Cheers...


----------



## affeg

MattBrace said:


> Some substituted parts in the movement, the sweep hand is a modern replacement.
> 
> Cheers...


Thanks!


----------



## PiotrS

affeg said:


> What do you guys think of this Poljot? I thinks it's real but I'm not 100% sure.
> View attachment 16536434
> View attachment 16536433
> View attachment 16536435


Make sure the case is steel. This photo is not very clear for me. 
The chronograph sekond hand is wrong, this is write MattBrace .


----------



## gp20

Hi everybody... I don't know very well slava watches... So, i hope someone here knows them better than me....


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Hi everybody... I don't know very well slava watches... So, i hope someone here knows them better than me....
> View attachment 16545467
> View attachment 16545469
> View attachment 16545472


No issues. Good one.


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Hi,
I'm thinking of buying a vintage Soviet mechanical watch. I would ideally like that it be original, so hopefully I can post some candidates here for comment?
(First time poster I think but long time reader! Lot of links follow, hopefully that's OK (I've been disappeared down an ebay rabbit hole for a few hours!), I checked forum guidelines and didn't see anything guiding on this)

A Vostok Mir 2209








Vostok Wostok Mir 2209 slim USSR Soviet men's wristwatch, export version! | eBay


Caliber wostok 2209: shock-proof balance, 18 jewels. Caliber: Wostok 2209. MANUFACTURER: Chistopol Watch Factory (ChChZ, Vostok, Russian: Чистопольский часовой завод). These watches feature "diver" styling with polyurethane or stainless steel bands.



www.ebay.co.uk





A Pobeda








Mint! Vintage Original Stylish Pobeda Dress watch Soviet 70s mechanical #2638 | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mint! Vintage Original Stylish Pobeda Dress watch Soviet 70s mechanical #2638 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk





A Poljot 2209 (this one I think is maybe Franken, based on face and hands?)








POLJOT DE LUXE 2209 wrist mens watch 23 Jewels Slim USSR Serviced | eBay


" USSR WATCH MARKET". see photos. gold plated: au 10.



www.ebay.co.uk





An unusual Raketa (no idea how such a calendar would work!):








Soviet Watch RAKETA COLLEGE Perpetual Calendar USSR Mechanical 2628Н Vintage | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Soviet Watch RAKETA COLLEGE Perpetual Calendar USSR Mechanical 2628Н Vintage at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!



www.ebay.co.uk





And a collection of Luch 2209

Slightly unusual face, but looks not _too_ fresh at least
RARE LUCH 2209 23 Jewels USSR Watch Rare Dial Soviet Vintage Ultra Slim Wrist | eBay

Face seems ok, hands too? is crystal weird? Is the gold-plating too fresh?
☭ Luch de Luxe Ultra Slim Wrist Watch Soviet Men's Vintage Mechanical Watch USSR | eBay

One with older (better?) version of the movement, nice face, hands look legit:
Luch 2209 gold plated luxury ultra slim Soviet Russian watch original USSR #1504 | eBay

Looks legit, but face/crystal "cloudy". Not sure what is needed to brighten it
Vintage Russian Men Watch Luch 2209 Ultra SLIM Mechanical Wristwatch Soviet USSR | eBay

Poor photos, but face/hands look legit?
⚡ Rare Luch Vintage Watch Mechanical 2209 Soviet Rare Dial USSR 🔥 Service... | eBay

Also, thanks folks for all the good discussions, links, guides etc., they've been super helpful!


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> No issues. Good one.


Thank you very much !


----------



## Odessa200

Col. Max Pyatnitski said:


> Hi,
> I'm thinking of buying a vintage Soviet mechanical watch. I would ideally like that it be original, so hopefully I can post some candidates here for comment?
> (First time poster I think but long time reader! Lot of links follow, hopefully that's OK (I've been disappeared down an ebay rabbit hole for a few hours!), I checked forum guidelines and didn't see anything guiding on this)
> 
> A Vostok Mir 2209
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok Wostok Mir 2209 slim USSR Soviet men's wristwatch, export version! | eBay
> 
> 
> Caliber wostok 2209: shock-proof balance, 18 jewels. Caliber: Wostok 2209. MANUFACTURER: Chistopol Watch Factory (ChChZ, Vostok, Russian: Чистопольский часовой завод). These watches feature "diver" styling with polyurethane or stainless steel bands.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Pobeda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mint! Vintage Original Stylish Pobeda Dress watch Soviet 70s mechanical #2638 | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mint! Vintage Original Stylish Pobeda Dress watch Soviet 70s mechanical #2638 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A Poljot 2209 (this one I think is maybe Franken, based on face and hands?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> POLJOT DE LUXE 2209 wrist mens watch 23 Jewels Slim USSR Serviced | eBay
> 
> 
> " USSR WATCH MARKET". see photos. gold plated: au 10.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An unusual Raketa (no idea how such a calendar would work!):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Soviet Watch RAKETA COLLEGE Perpetual Calendar USSR Mechanical 2628Н Vintage | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Soviet Watch RAKETA COLLEGE Perpetual Calendar USSR Mechanical 2628Н Vintage at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And a collection of Luch 2209
> 
> Slightly unusual face, but looks not _too_ fresh at least
> RARE LUCH 2209 23 Jewels USSR Watch Rare Dial Soviet Vintage Ultra Slim Wrist | eBay
> 
> Face seems ok, hands too? is crystal weird? Is the gold-plating too fresh?
> ☭ Luch de Luxe Ultra Slim Wrist Watch Soviet Men's Vintage Mechanical Watch USSR | eBay
> 
> One with older (better?) version of the movement, nice face, hands look legit:
> Luch 2209 gold plated luxury ultra slim Soviet Russian watch original USSR #1504 | eBay
> 
> Looks legit, but face/crystal "cloudy". Not sure what is needed to brighten it
> Vintage Russian Men Watch Luch 2209 Ultra SLIM Mechanical Wristwatch Soviet USSR | eBay
> 
> Poor photos, but face/hands look legit?
> ⚡ Rare Luch Vintage Watch Mechanical 2209 Soviet Rare Dial USSR 🔥 Service... | eBay
> 
> Also, thanks folks for all the good discussions, links, guides etc., they've been super helpful!


Welcome! My opinions below

1) Wostok Mir: broken tail from seconds hand

2) Pobeda: wrong hands

3) Poljot: fake dial. Avoid

4) Raketa: franken, should be in gilded case with this dial and hands, calendar in English while dial is in Russian, etc. Avoid. Easy to find a much better correct one. 

5) Luch: not sure this dial/hands were in chromed case. Catalog research needed. 

6) Black Luch: franken. Avoid. Wrong crown, horrible crystal, wrong case (from a later model)

7) Luch with horizontal lines: not bad, replaced crystal but close enough to the original 

8) Cloudy Luch: franken. Replacement movement, bad crown

9) last Luch: franken. Bad crown and newer case as far as I see. Should be gilded for this dial.


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome! My opinions below
> 
> 1) Wostok Mir: broken tail from seconds hand
> 
> 2) Pobeda: wrong hands
> 
> 3) Poljot: fake dial. Avoid
> 
> 4) Raketa: franken, should be in gilded case with this dial and hands, calendar in English while dial is in Russian, etc. Avoid. Easy to find a much better correct one.
> 
> 5) Luch: not sure this dial/hands were in chromed case. Catalog research needed.
> 
> 6) Black Luch: franken. Avoid. Wrong crown, horrible crystal, wrong case (from a later model)
> 
> 7) Luch with horizontal lines: not bad, replaced crystal but close enough to the original
> 
> 8) Cloudy Luch: franken. Replacement movement, bad crown
> 
> 9) last Luch: franken. Bad crown and newer case as far as I see. Should be gilded for this dial.


Wow, thank you so much for that!
Though I'm more than a bit disheartened that I had nothing properly original in the mix! I actually did a lot of "filtering" before I got to these.

I guess I did at least manage to identify some of the real/fake bits (like dials) but don't know enough to know when they've been put together in improbable ways.

I'll have a better look at these again, to try to get my head around some of the "tells".

Is there a particular make/model that's better to focus on if looking for an original soviet dress/semi-dress watch with reliable movement? (i.e. one that has been made in huge volume, and perhaps less popular


----------



## Odessa200

Col. Max Pyatnitski said:


> Wow, thank you so much for that!
> Though I'm more than a bit disheartened that I had nothing properly original in the mix! I actually did a lot of "filtering" before I got to these.
> 
> I guess I did at least manage to identify some of the real/fake bits (like dials) but don't know enough to know when they've been put together in improbable ways.
> 
> I'll have a better look at these again, to try to get my head around some of the "tells".
> 
> Is there a particular make/model that's better to focus on if looking for an original soviet dress/semi-dress watch with reliable movement? (i.e. one that has been made in huge volume, and perhaps less popular


Do not despair! You did better than most people who just start with Soviet watches. The problem is that most of the watches for sale are franken (deliberately or just as a result of many repairs). I would advise you pick a model you like and focus your searches on just that model. What is that you like: flat Luch or Raketa Calendar?

What I listed as issues may not be complete given you asked about so many watches I did not spend enough time looking at each and comparing to catalogs. The last is very important! Lets review with the 1st Vostok you listed. Here is the catalog. Upon 2nd review I see that the seconds hand is wrong (should be w/o the arrow head) and the crown is replaced. As I said: this is expected especially if the price is 65$. Soviet watches are cheap but not that cheap. One way to approach this is to get a decent watch and later, when opportunity presents, replace wrong parts. Another approach is to keep looking: great watches are there!


----------



## player_one

Hi all,

I can't find anything similar to this Amphibia to work out if it's legit or not. Any insight is appreciated.


----------



## Avidfan

player_one said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I can't find anything similar to this Amphibia to work out if it's legit or not. Any insight is appreciated.
> View attachment 16546669
> 
> View attachment 16546668


It's not IMHO, you won't find this dial in any of the catalogues but it's from the post-Soviet early 1990's and for an Amphibia and marked for 200M WR, the case is a 09 chromed brass auto-Komandirskie case which never attained that much WR (this case is shown as only 20M in the 2001 catalogue), the calendar font is wrong indicating it has a much newer movement or at least a replacement calendar ring...


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Odessa200 said:


> Do not despair! You did better than most people who just start with Soviet watches. The problem is that most of the watches for sale are franken (deliberately or just as a result of many repairs). I would advise you pick a model you like and focus your searches on just that model. What is that you like: flat Luch or Raketa Calendar?
> 
> What I listed as issues may not be complete given you asked about so many watches I did not spend enough time looking at each and comparing to catalogs. The last is very important! Lets review with the 1st Vostok you listed. Here is the catalog. Upon 2nd review I see that the seconds hand is wrong (should be w/o the arrow head) and the crown is replaced. As I said: this is expected especially if the price is 65$. Soviet watches are cheap but not that cheap. One way to approach this is to get a decent watch and later, when opportunity presents, replace wrong parts. Another approach is to keep looking: great watches are there!


I'm *not* going to keep posting watch after watch (I promise!), but just to take one more go:









Slim Watch 18 Jewels Ussr 2209 Soviet Vostok Vintage Wristwatch Wostok Soviet | eBay


Good working condition. Has been recently serviced. Leather strap. I will do best to resolve any problems.



www.ebay.co.uk





Seems to have a face one one of the watches here:





Vostok | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Vostok, Boctok, Восток, Wostok, Amphibia, Amphibian, Precision, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com




Specifically this one: Vostok | Watches of the USSR
(not sure if direct link will work, it's model 123065)

I'm wondering if the crystal is incorrect/inappropriate though? (a replaced crystal I don't mind so much: they get scratched/cracked, so I'd regard them as a "consumable" on a watch of this age, but not if it's very ugly or very unlike the original)


----------



## Odessa200

Col. Max Pyatnitski said:


> I'm *not* going to keep posting watch after watch (I promise!), but just to take one more go:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slim Watch 18 Jewels Ussr 2209 Soviet Vostok Vintage Wristwatch Wostok Soviet | eBay
> 
> 
> Good working condition. Has been recently serviced. Leather strap. I will do best to resolve any problems.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to have a face one one of the watches here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Vostok, Boctok, Восток, Wostok, Amphibia, Amphibian, Precision, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Specifically this one: Vostok | Watches of the USSR
> (not sure if direct link will work, it's model 123065)
> 
> I'm wondering if the crystal is incorrect/inappropriate though? (a replaced crystal I don't mind so much: they get scratched/cracked, so I'd regard them as a "consumable" on a watch of this age, but not if it's very ugly or very unlike the original)


You got it! The only thing I see is a bit square crystal. Something that is easy to fix or if it looks ok to you just use as is.


----------



## giucap

gp20 said:


> Hi everybody... I don't know very well slava watches... So, i hope someone here knows them better than me....
> View attachment 16545467
> View attachment 16545469
> View attachment 16545472


Nice slava by the way, have noticed the really cute second factory logo under the well I love that


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## sixthirtyfive

hey all, was thinking about this kopernik but noticed some things that made me suspicious such as the crown and movement. Is this a franken or straight up fake?


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## 979greenwich

Fake.


----------



## Michael-DK

Hello all

First time poster but long time reader 🙂 I'm new to collecting Soviet watches. I'm intrigued by this Pobeda that I find rather interesting. In my research I have found that the case, dial and hands would usually belong to the Neva brand. Both Neva and Pobeda was produced at the Petrodvorets factory. Could it be that the factory used Neva parts to make a Pobeda (in need of parts)? The movement is Pobeda, as far as I can gather. Or is it a franken? Also, the caseback seems in unusual good condition.


----------



## Odessa200

Michael-DK said:


> Hello all
> 
> First time poster but long time reader 🙂 I'm new to collecting Soviet watches. I'm intrigued by this Pobeda that I find rather interesting. In my research I have found that the case, dial and hands would usually belong to the Neva brand. Both Neva and Pobeda was produced at the Petrodvorets factory. Could it be that the factory used Neva parts to make a Pobeda (in need of parts)? The movement is Pobeda, as far as I can gather. Or is it a franken? Also, the caseback seems in unusual good condition.
> View attachment 16564981
> View attachment 16564982
> View attachment 16564985


welcome! I would say it is franken. The obvious issue is the back cover says ‘shockproof’ but it is not. Then this dial needs different hands. Take a look. Back cover is a minor issue. Then the ratchet wheel should say Pobeda.


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Is this Ruhla legit?

Fellow collectors, could you please help me with your advice?


----------



## Michael-DK

Odessa200 said:


> welcome! I would say it is franken. The obvious issue is the back cover says ‘shockproof’ but it is not. Then this dial needs different hands. Take a look. Back cover is a minor issue. Then the ratchet wheel should say Pobeda.
> View attachment 16565622


Right. Thanks Odessa!


----------



## JacobC

Hello folks,

How does everyone feel about this Yalta? 











Wildly overpriced considering there is no gold content, but all of the provenance of this peace is good. The thing that bothers me is that in 2012 when this piece was made, Raketa didn't yet use lume anywhere in their watches to the absolute best of my knowledge. This reference doesn't appear in catalogs to my knowledge.

Listing here Raketa Yalta for $1,083 for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24

This page is seemingly the only other reputable looking source: Российские механические наручные часы Ракета W-40-16-10-0221


----------



## CheapTimeLongTime

I’m looking at Raketa 24 hour watches. I’ve heard chrono24 is generally a good place to get them. Is that correct?

More specifically, is this a legit watch?









Raketa 24h for SOLD for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24


Raketa Listing: SOLD Raketa 24h, Steel; Manual winding; Condition Good; Year 1985; Location: Italy




www.chrono24.com


----------



## dutchassasin

CheapTimeLongTime said:


> I’m looking at Raketa 24 hour watches. I’ve heard chrono24 is generally a good place to get them. Is that correct?
> 
> More specifically, is this a legit watch?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa 24h for SOLD for sale from a Private Seller on Chrono24
> 
> 
> Raketa Listing: SOLD Raketa 24h, Steel; Manual winding; Condition Good; Year 1985; Location: Italy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.chrono24.com


While the piece looks genuine the asking price is a tad too high. I suggest searching one on ebay to get a better deal.


----------



## Odessa200

dutchassasin said:


> While the piece looks genuine the asking price is a tad too high. I suggest searching one on ebay to get a better deal.


Totally agree. Chrono is a good place for people who want to pay double. Wander what do the Chrono24 add to the value? They do not guarantee authenticity because there are fakes for sale there (not this watch). So why all the prices are so hight?


----------



## CheapTimeLongTime

I really appreciate the help! I’ll look more at eBay.

These watches seem to be of good quality, are they legit? And if not, what’s the tell so that I can try to sift these for myself?









RAKETA 24 HOURS Antarctic Vintage Gold Plated Watch With Box | eBay


LEGENDARY WATCH RAKETA 24 HOURS.



www.ebay.com













☭Rare Raketa 24 Polar Vintage Russian Soviet USSR cal 2623☭ | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ☭Rare Raketa 24 Polar Vintage Russian Soviet USSR cal 2623☭ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

CheapTimeLongTime said:


> I really appreciate the help! I’ll look more at eBay.
> 
> These watches seem to be of good quality, are they legit? And if not, what’s the tell so that I can try to sift these for myself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAKETA 24 HOURS Antarctic Vintage Gold Plated Watch With Box | eBay
> 
> 
> LEGENDARY WATCH RAKETA 24 HOURS.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ☭Rare Raketa 24 Polar Vintage Russian Soviet USSR cal 2623☭ | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for ☭Rare Raketa 24 Polar Vintage Russian Soviet USSR cal 2623☭ at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


You did well. Both looks authentic. The passport is not from this watch but the rest looks right


----------



## palletwheel

I'm looking at this Pobeda. Overall it looks legit, but the crown is different from the one @mroatman has. This one is more typical, so I'm wondering if this is still OK. The inscription on the back is really interesting so I'm really tempted. Many thanks as always for the opinions.





__





Pobeda | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I'm looking at this Pobeda. Overall it looks legit, but the crown is different from the one @mroatman has. This one is more typical, so I'm wondering if this is still OK. The inscription on the back is really interesting so I'm really tempted. Many thanks as always for the opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pobeda | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Pobeda, Victory, Military, Победа, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


I think it is good. Maybe crown is slightly off but I would say it is a decent Pobeda


----------



## gp20

Another pobeda, another question : Legit or totally Franken ? ...


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this Poljot? Can the hands be polished from the rust?


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Another pobeda, another question : Legit or totally Franken ? ...
> View attachment 16581882
> View attachment 16581883
> View attachment 16581884


I would say: legit.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this Poljot? Can the hands be polished from the rust?
> 
> View attachment 16582099
> 
> 
> View attachment 16582098
> 
> 
> View attachment 16582097
> 
> 
> View attachment 16582103
> 
> 
> View attachment 16582102


Legit. Hands can be cleaned but just a bit. Depending on the actual damage you may get different results. You need to be careful because gilding on the hands is very very very thin!


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> Legit. Hands can be cleaned but just a bit. Depending on the actual damage you may get different results. You need to be careful because gilding on the hands is very very very thin!


hm, shame, otherwise very nice looking watch

thanks


PS. What if I put them in Coca-Cola? It cleans bronze watches from patina 🧐


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> hm, shame, otherwise very nice looking watch
> 
> thanks
> 
> 
> PS. What if I put them in Coca-Cola? It cleans bronze watches from patina 🧐


I like this model. It actually looks quite nice. At one point I had 4. Then sold 2. Have 1 with shiny dial and 1 with a dull one. Both nice. The hands: it find them less important than dial but they can be distracting. One need to see and decide for himself. Doing some touch up with a metallic paint or even metallic marker is always an option.


----------



## affeg

What do you guys think of this watch? Is it real or a franken?


----------



## Odessa200

affeg said:


> What do you guys think of this watch? Is it real or a franken?
> View attachment 16584577
> View attachment 16584578
> View attachment 16584579
> View attachment 16584580
> View attachment 16584581


All real.


----------



## affeg

Odessa200 said:


> All real.


Thank you!


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think about this one, I don't know much anything about these chronographs...?


----------



## Ligavesh

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this one, I don't know much anything about these chronographs...?
> 
> View attachment 16590870
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590872
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590871


No one knows anything about this chronograph? I assume that it is (or ot should be) from WW2 or even before, but have parts been replaced? Surely the crown can't look that good if it were original?


----------



## Danivar

Long time reader, but first post. Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Avidfan

Danivar said:


> Long time reader, but first post. Any thoughts on this?
> View attachment 16594531
> 
> View attachment 16594532


Welcome to the forum!  

It's a VDV (paratrooper) auto-Komandirskie 921021 from the 1995-2000 era, chrome plated brass case, Amphibia hands, 2416b movement with the usual Orca killer whale caseback.

I can't think of anything more to say about it tbh...


----------



## Danivar

Thank you! Haven`t seen this combination before (no digits, bezel with triangular point and orca caseback) but I guess they were produced with lots of different combinations..


----------



## Avidfan

Danivar said:


> Thank you! Haven`t seen this combination before (no digits, bezel with triangular point and orca caseback) but I guess they were produced with lots of different combinations..


The bezel with triangular point and the Orca caseback are pretty standard for Type 92 auto-Komandirskie, the only unusual feature are the Amphibia hands but I wouldn't be at all surprised if these were fitted at the factory...

Here's a late 1990's catalogue image showing the 021 dial which as you say would have been put into lots of different cases with both the 2414A and 2416b movements...


----------



## AaParker

Hello, I am hoping that some of you might have some opinions on this Sputnik. I would be grateful for any thoughts you may have. Thank you in advance.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello, I am hoping that some of you might have some opinions on this Sputnik. I would be grateful for any thoughts you may have. Thank you in advance.
> 
> View attachment 16596165
> View attachment 16596166
> View attachment 16596167


Looks perfect!


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Looks perfect!


Thank you very much for your thoughts. I was hoping it might be authentic; these seem to be harder and harder to find with the fakes out-numbering the authentic dials by a considerable margin. Now the wait begins.


----------



## Chascomm

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this one, I don't know much anything about these chronographs...?
> 
> View attachment 16590870
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590872
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590871


Not many 1GChZ chrono experts on this forum, because they are so rarely seen. I think this was the most recent:








Kirova Valjoux 61 Chronograph


Hi, I have not posted in quite a while. I just had a full mechanical overhaul on my Kirova one button chronograph with the Valjoux 61 movement. Keeps great time, and the chrono functions perfectly. I am fortunate to have found an example of this great watch with its original red numeral...




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Brblesh

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think about this one, I don't know much anything about these chronographs...?
> 
> View attachment 16590870
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590872
> 
> 
> View attachment 16590871


There is some info on this site, i don't know if you have seen it already:


https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/poljot/



The site says they were produced between 1938 and 1941. Your model here seems to be produced in the 3rd quarter of 1941, considering the history of the factory, it should be one of the last models, after that the factory was temporary moved to Zlatoust.

I am not an expert and cannot comment how authentic it is, i could only compare it to the pic on the site i linked. Some things on the mechanism (like the bridge stamp) which can be compared to the Type-1, seem ok to me...

I hope that helped a bit...


----------



## Ligavesh

Brblesh said:


> There is some info on this site, i don't know if you have seen it already:
> 
> 
> https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/poljot/
> 
> 
> 
> The site says they were produced between 1938 and 1941. Your model here seems to be produced in the 3rd quarter of 1941, considering the history of the factory, it should be one of the last models, after that the factory was temporary moved to Zlatoust.
> 
> I am not an expert and cannot comment how authentic it is, i could only compare it to the pic on the site i linked. Some things on the mechanism (like the bridge stamp) which can be compared to the Type-1, seem ok to me...
> 
> I hope that helped a bit...


thanks a lot!


----------



## steros

I’m just curious about this one. This amphibia dial looks like the one with ref nr 481 but without the pinkish rim, or like the 199 ”sniper” dial but without some significant markings. To me it doesn’t look like a fake. Is it simply a 481 that happened to skip the pink paint?


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> I’m just curious about this one. This amphibia dial looks like the one with ref nr 481 but without the pinkish rim, or like the 199 ”sniper” dial but without some significant markings. To me it doesn’t look like a fake. Is it simply a 481 that happened to skip the pink paint?
> View attachment 16603130


Could be either but my guess is that it was originally a 199 sniper that's been altered...


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> both watches above are fine. Good luck!


Just a quick update. The trail for the watches goes cold at Chop Ukraine on Apr 5th, from which it was dispatched according to UkrPoshta. Given conditions at the border, I'm not thinking this is lost so much as stuck, very likely on a truck either to Poland or Hungary. The seller by the way had his payment system die after a server upgrade. Nothing nefarious, just shear incompetence by the provider. A fix is sadly very much TBD. Once I get my watches and the dealers problems are fixed, I'll post again to let you all know it all worked out and with details in case you want to go through this ordeal.


----------



## Roman Ukraine

hello everyone
any thoughts on what it is?
case - steel
I think the case is handicraft


----------



## Ligavesh

Roman Ukraine said:


> hello everyone
> any thoughts on what it is?
> case - steel
> I think the case is handicraft
> View attachment 16612887
> View attachment 16612888
> View attachment 16612889
> View attachment 16612890


looks like a woman's watch - I'd be more concerned about the big hands and the small second hand nit being the same color, I can't say anything mote though, sorry

anyway, what do we think about this watch -outside of the wrong latin day letters (can be fixed):


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> looks like a woman's watch - I'd be more concerned about the big hands and the small second hand nit being the same color, I can't say anything mote though, sorry
> 
> anyway, what do we think about this watch -outside of the wrong latin day letters (can be fixed):
> 
> View attachment 16621404
> 
> View attachment 16621403


Calendar and crown are wrong in my view


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Odessa200 said:


> You got it! The only thing I see is a bit square crystal. Something that is easy to fix or if it looks ok to you just use as is.


Just to update that I bought this watch in the end, and it arrived from Ukraine yesterday (pic here is from the original listing)







Actually looks better in reality than I'd thought from the photo and surprisingly (to me) light. The crystal isn't my favourite, but is at least unmarked and looks better when wearing it than on the table. (Might change it in time.) Watch is running about 3 minutes fast a day. Tolerable for occasional wear. Haven't tried demagnetising or anything.
I'm very happy with the purchase, so thanks again for the help here!


----------



## RedFroggy

Can you please share your verdict on this ZIM ?

















many thanks for your help .


----------



## Ligavesh

Everyone's getting their watches from Ukraine but me 

Anyway, thoughts on this Slava:


















I have it like this:










So which is the correct one?


----------



## discosmiter

Greetings fellow watch entusiasts

What is your valuable opinion on this okeah?
Is it genuine or just another Frankenstein for sell?


----------



## Odessa200

discosmiter said:


> Greetings fellow watch entusiasts
> 
> What is your valuable opinion on this okeah?
> Is it genuine or just another Frankenstein for sell?


Not an expert in these but looks legit to me.


----------



## MattBrace

discosmiter said:


> Greetings fellow watch entusiasts
> 
> What is your valuable opinion on this okeah?
> Is it genuine or just another Frankenstein for sell?


Looks to be a decent original example, price is high but probably not unreasonable for today's market, movement looks all ok.
Lume work looks very green but I think that's just the lighting in the picture. 

Cheers...


----------



## discosmiter

Thank you Odessa200 and Matt your answer is helping.


----------



## AaParker

Hello,
I would appreciate any thoughts and opinions you might have on this Kirovskie. I think the movement is correct for the time, but the dial and hands aren't a combination I have seen. I really like it though. Thank you for your time!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> I would appreciate any thoughts and opinions you might have on this Kirovskie. I think the movement is correct for the time, but the dial and hands aren't a combination I have seen. I really like it though. Thank you for your time!
> 
> View attachment 16635642
> 
> 
> View attachment 16635643


Not sure but looks legit to me.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Not sure but looks legit to me.


Thanks, @Odessa200 . I appreciate your thoughts on this one!


----------



## palletwheel

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> I would appreciate any thoughts and opinions you might have on this Kirovskie. I think the movement is correct for the time, but the dial and hands aren't a combination I have seen. I really like it though. Thank you for your time!
> 
> View attachment 16635642
> 
> 
> View attachment 16635643


Your comment sums it up. In favor is the dial looks naturally aged and the handset looks consistent as well as in spirit of the design. This is how we all learn, a nice research piece if reasonably priced, given you like it.


----------



## palletwheel

palletwheel said:


> Just a quick update. The trail for the watches goes cold at Chop Ukraine on Apr 5th, from which it was dispatched according to UkrPoshta. Given conditions at the border, I'm not thinking this is lost so much as stuck, very likely on a truck either to Poland or Hungary. The seller by the way had his payment system die after a server upgrade. Nothing nefarious, just shear incompetence by the provider. A fix is sadly very much TBD. Once I get my watches and the dealers problems are fixed, I'll post again to let you all know it all worked out and with details in case you want to go through this ordeal.


They have arrived 😁

Not soon after I posted this they ended up back in Lviv (?!), from which it cleared customs and was told it was handed over to be shipped out (?!). Then the line goes dead until all of a sudden they appear in the US yesterday, after which it makes rapid progress and reaches me today. The seller didn't tell me how they are shipping them overseas, just that things seem to be moving through the system now more normally. Personally I think a lot of reindeer power facilitated by elves did the trick, as all I can say is the package arrived in pristine condition without a mark on it, the contents just fine.

I have another batch from this seller to be shipped out soon, this one going via a shipper overland to Prague and hence out via FedEx. According to the seller there are no border delays, it will take 4 to 5 days to reach Prague and then fly out. We shall see and I will keep everyone posted.


----------



## palletwheel

I'm putting this in a separate post just in case I violate some rule and our beloved moderator needs to nuke this.

If you are interested in finding out where these watches are coming from please PM me. But please read through all of the following first. 

I'm not on as much as I used to be, so I may not get back to you right away, but I will get back to you. I'm writing this here and not in a separate thread as:

1) Only the most hard-core ever bother with this thread.

2) Therefore the seller won't get trolled, the situation being what it is. 

Given all the cyberwarefare going on, this is not a silly concern. I hope dear reader you are gentle, and regardless of orientation will leave people in peace.

The key thing being that part of the proceeds of any purchase is going to the Ukrainian army and associated humanitarian efforts. If that troubles you in any way, please go in peace.

That out of the way, many of you probably know this seller, but I'll lay out the pros and cons for those who may not.

Cons: Lots of Frankens on the site. You must do your due diligence. Everything is serviced, but not always well, ask for timegrapher readings. Everything is pretty expensive, now more than ever.

Pros: The dealer is a great guy, never a problem doing business with him. If you don't like what you see from the timegrapher reading, and he can't get it any better, never a problem getting a refund (though do expect to pay up first). Ditto if you get it and it has a mechanical problem, he will be happy to take it back to fix. Photos are great and truthful, what you see is what you will get. If you need more, just ask. But I don't think complaining about a Franken will get you anywhere, so do this all upfront. Shipping is great. The great stuff that does get posted is really great, the expense worth it in my opinion. Especially since this is more than just about buying watches, if you are happy about where the money is going, and I have no doubt it is.

I think the pros outweigh the cons. You may not and that's ok. Only one thing I ask from forum members inclined to this is, since if someone posts a question about a piece here, we all know the source, so kindly please don't poach. If the consensus is that it's right, but you as poster decide not to buy, please let everyone know so they will have the opportunity if desired.

Lastly, please keep in mind that missiles are still being lobbed at Lviv. The seller is really honest, the packages are going out, you will get a real tracking number. But that does not mean you will get your watches. If you don't get your watches, best treat you payment as a donation to the Ukrainian economy.

I think that's it. I'm happy as always to discuss and will keep an eye out here. Happy hunting.


----------



## jerauf

I'm not able to find this model anywhere. Is it modified at all?


----------



## 979greenwich

It has a different bezel in the catalogue. But that doesn't necessarily mean it has been modified.








1990 Vostok Catalog Sub-Collection


The 1990 Vostok export catalog (here) is an exemplary catalog. Large color photos, descriptions in six languages, caliber and reference numbers highlighted front and center -- other catalogs have a lot to learn from this one. Starting here, and continuing for the next 12 pages, a dozen...




www.watchuseek.com






https://vostokamphibiacccp.altervista.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/DSC_8005.jpg


----------



## mtt-mrk

raketa 24 times of the world, green dial.

hands look bit suspicious to me, but the rest seems original? If yes, worth a 100 USD or less?

Many thanks in advance!


----------



## 979greenwich

Fake.


----------



## Chascomm

mtt-mrk said:


> raketa 24 times of the world, green dial.
> 
> hands look bit suspicious to me, but the rest seems original? If yes, worth a 100 USD or less?
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16648766


Movement photo?


----------



## mtt-mrk

979greenwich said:


> Fake.


thank you for your feedback! - except for the hands any other particular detail that should be looked at for this model?


----------



## mtt-mrk

Chascomm said:


> Movement photo?


unfortunately I don't have any


----------



## Chascomm

mtt-mrk said:


> unfortunately I don't have any


The reason I asked is because the old Raketa factory was producing watches very much like this just before the takeover. This watch might be one of those but it might be a fake. Either way, it is not a soviet era product in spite of what is written on the dial.


----------



## Simon

Im interested in this for sale here on WUS - any thoughts?









Withdrawn


Withdrawn




www.watchuseek.com


----------



## Odessa200

Simon said:


> Im interested in this for sale here on WUS - any thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Withdrawn
> 
> 
> Withdrawn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


watch made in 1995 and still ‘made in ussr’??? Upon further investigation I see the watch style code in the passport is not for a bog zero. So the passport seems wrong. The quality of the photos does not allow me to assess the authenticity of the dial.


----------



## AaParker

Hello, I was wondering is anyone had any thoughts or opinions on this Vostok. I haven't been able to find a reference example. Thank you in advance!


----------



## Avidfan

AaParker said:


> Hello, I was wondering is anyone had any thoughts or opinions on this Vostok. I haven't been able to find a reference example. Thank you in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16650181
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650182
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650183


A franken, here's where this dial belongs...


----------



## Chascomm

AaParker said:


> Hello, I was wondering is anyone had any thoughts or opinions on this Vostok. I haven't been able to find a reference example. Thank you in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16650181
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650182
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650183


Amphibia Antimagnetic dial in an older Komandirskie case with Komandirskie hands. Maybe?
The case back does not look deep enough for an antimagnetic shield.


----------



## AaParker

Avidfan said:


> A franken, here's where this dial belongs...
> View attachment 16650247


Thank you. I appreciate your help with this!


----------



## AaParker

Chascomm said:


> Amphibia Antimagnetic dial in an older Komandirskie case with Komandirskie hands. Maybe?
> The case back does not look deep enough for an antimagnetic shield.


Thank you! I appreciate it. Looks to be fairly Franken all the way around.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello, I was wondering is anyone had any thoughts or opinions on this Vostok. I haven't been able to find a reference example. Thank you in advance!
> 
> View attachment 16650181
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650182
> 
> 
> View attachment 16650183


this is what it was.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> this is what it was.
> 
> View attachment 16650259


Thank you. Not a surprise I couldn't find a reference, I was just quickly looking for a square case. I should have looked for the dial!


----------



## AaParker

Dup


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Two watches I'd appreciate some pointers on,
first:














second:




















I'm probably keener on the second, as it has arabic numerals and I have another (franken) with a Poljot face very similar to the first, though that watch is more expensive. Ultimately, likely to go for the watch that is closer to original.

If I can risk a separate question: what would be the make/movement to go for for longevity and robustness? (The 2209s can be lovely as they're so thin etc., but the winding gear-train is maybe a little problematic on some examples?)


----------



## Odessa200

Col. Max Pyatnitski said:


> Two watches I'd appreciate some pointers on,
> first:
> View attachment 16652130
> View attachment 16652131
> 
> 
> second:
> View attachment 16652132
> View attachment 16652133
> View attachment 16652134
> 
> 
> I'm probably keener on the second, as it has arabic numerals and I have another (franken) with a Poljot face very similar to the first, though that watch is more expensive. Ultimately, likely to go for the watch that is closer to original.
> 
> If I can risk a separate question: what would be the make/movement to go for for longevity and robustness? (The 2209s can be lovely as they're so thin etc., but the winding gear-train is maybe a little problematic on some examples?)


2nd is closer to the original: it has a generic later movement (instead of the original early movement).

1st one is just a collection of parts: generic replacement movement, wrong later case and crown that do not match the dial, etc.

As far as 2209 reliability: imho, it is less forgiving than other Soviet movements. Properly serviced it will run as a daily watch 5 years no problems and then it must be serviced again. W/o the proper lube the winding will be stiff and demanding the parts.


----------



## Col. Max Pyatnitski

Odessa200 said:


> 2nd is closer to the original: it has a generic later movement (instead of the original early movement).
> 
> 1st one is just a collection of parts: generic replacement movement, wrong later case and crown that do not match the dial, etc.
> 
> As far as 2209 reliability: imho, it is less forgiving than other Soviet movements. Properly serviced it will run as a daily watch 5 years no problems and then it must be serviced again. W/o the proper lube the winding will be stiff and demanding the parts.


Thank you again,
I guess the issues you highlight with the 2209 might be part of the reason movements get swapped out like that (thinking of 2nd watch). It's probably cheaper (and definitely quicker) for some of these folks to swap movements than even to try to service them.

With these older, cheaper vintage watches, do people start doing their own servicing? I've followed some YouTube channels and it seems to be a hobby in itself. Certainly in UK, having looked at some prices online, I'd find it very hard to justify paying to get such a watch serviced. (Then again, reading your note, if you'd get 5 years daily wear from a service, it's not a lot of money per wear... if used less often my understanding is servicing would be needed less often too)


----------



## Odessa200

Col. Max Pyatnitski said:


> Thank you again,
> I guess the issues you highlight with the 2209 might be part of the reason movements get swapped out like that (thinking of 2nd watch). It's probably cheaper (and definitely quicker) for some of these folks to swap movements than even to try to service them.
> 
> With these older, cheaper vintage watches, do people start doing their own servicing? I've followed some YouTube channels and it seems to be a hobby in itself. Certainly in UK, having looked at some prices online, I'd find it very hard to justify paying to get such a watch serviced. (Then again, reading your note, if you'd get 5 years daily wear from a service, it's not a lot of money per wear... if used less often my understanding is servicing would be needed less often too)


True. Movements swapped for various reasons. Also many of the watches that are on sale now were assembled from whatever parts available. People buy old watchmaker inventory and then put together watches for sale.

Watchmaking as a hobby: for sure doable. I am an example of this. It will take a few months and some money investment in tools. Soviet movements are good for learning. They are simple, cheep and forgiving.


----------



## jerauf

I got this Vostok commemorating the Olympics but not able to find other examples. I recognize the outer dial from other models but not the inner.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> I got this Slave commemorating the Olympics but not able to find other examples. I recognize the outer dial from other models but not the inner.
> 
> View attachment 16653388


You got a Vostok and all looks correct (except maybe the crown but it is hard to see from your photo). Everything that you had shown us is from a Vostok. And I am quite sure inside will be a Vostok 2409 as well. Why do you say Slava?


----------



## jerauf

Odessa200 said:


> You got a Vostok! Everything that you had shown us is from a Vostok. And I am quite sure inside will be a Vostok 2409 as well. Why do you say Slava?


Typo... 

Is it a legit model?


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Typo...
> 
> Is it a legit model?


yes. Except crown is wrong.


----------



## StrawberryMilk

Hello, I was wondering if anyone could tell me if this looks like a legitimate Copernicus? From my research everything seems right, proper crown, crystal, and movement, but maybe there's something I'm missing?


----------



## gp20

Legit for me !


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Legit for me !


agree


----------



## StrawberryMilk

gp20 said:


> Legit for me !





Odessa200 said:


> agree


Thank you both!

There is another Copernicus from the same seller that also looks legitimate if anyone happens to be looking for one. 
Ebay seller ua_perr


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> Not sure but looks legit to me.


I thought this was helpful as I came across this version in @mroatman's collection when I was trying to validate something else. It's a Poljot similar to the Kirovskie I was looking at. 

The hands are different on the Kirovskie than on the Poljot, but I have to say I do like how the hour hand mimics the design of the hour markers on the Kirovskie. It's not something I've seen before and is something that drew me to the watch.


----------



## jerauf

Are either of these Big Zero's legit? I know the hands are wrong on the one with the yellow band. I'm leaning toward the one with the black band being legit but the dial shows no sign of age.

Both seem to have the right case, both dials have numbers that are slightly raised and shinier than the rest of the dial. The crystal on "black band" has a sharp corner, whereas on "yellow band" it's rounded off.

Thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## 979greenwich

The right one is 100 % franken. The other one, impossible to tell from the picture. There are some pretty good reproduction dials out there.


----------



## jerauf

Thank you, @979greenwich. Would another angle of the left one help you tell if the left one is franken?


----------



## Odessa200

I w


979greenwich said:


> The right one is 100 % franken. The other one, impossible to tell from the picture. There are some pretty good reproduction dials out there.


I would say left looks legit.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Thank you, @979greenwich. Would another angle of the left one help you tell if the left one is franken?


Yes, show us all the photos you have. Back, movement, side.


----------



## jerauf

Here are some other pictures. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


----------



## gp20

Seems legit. Just a doubt about the crown and a piece of the movement, replaced by the same...


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks good I think.


----------



## jerauf

@gp20 - You think the crown has been changed? And what piece of the movement are you seeing as replaced?


----------



## palletwheel

palletwheel said:


> They have arrived 😁
> 
> Not soon after I posted this they ended up back in Lviv (?!), from which it cleared customs and was told it was handed over to be shipped out (?!). Then the line goes dead until all of a sudden they appear in the US yesterday, after which it makes rapid progress and reaches me today. The seller didn't tell me how they are shipping them overseas, just that things seem to be moving through the system now more normally. Personally I think a lot of reindeer power facilitated by elves did the trick, as all I can say is the package arrived in pristine condition without a mark on it, the contents just fine.
> 
> I have another batch from this seller to be shipped out soon, this one going via a shipper overland to Prague and hence out via FedEx. According to the seller there are no border delays, it will take 4 to 5 days to reach Prague and then fly out. We shall see and I will keep everyone posted.


The last batch arrived about a week ago, sorry I haven't had time to post.

The Komandirskie is interesting in that it has a hand inscribed dedication that says “30 years of Victory in the Great Partiotic War
from MO (Ministry of Defense) 1975”. It seems odd that something so generic would not be printed. Any Komandirskie experts out there know the history of these?

I'm also posting the domestic and just acquired export version of the Raketa World Time. The are both late 80s judging from the dials and movement stamps. You can't really tell from my photo but I think the export version looked a little better. Does anyone know if that might just be production variation or a little extra effort went into making export versions at that time?

Lastly, this experiment of purchasing from Ukraine has been a complete success. There's still risk of course, but if you are inclined I encourage you to jump in.


----------



## mtt-mrk

palletwheel said:


> Lastly, this experiment of purchasing from Ukraine has been a complete success. There's still risk of course, but if you are inclined I encourage you to jump in.


Without necessarily mentioning the seller, I guess it's Ebay? thanks


----------



## palletwheel

palletwheel said:


> I'm putting this in a separate post just in case I violate some rule and our beloved moderator needs to nuke this.
> 
> If you are interested in finding out where these watches are coming from please PM me. But please read through all of the following first.
> 
> I'm not on as much as I used to be, so I may not get back to you right away, but I will get back to you. I'm writing this here and not in a separate thread as:
> 
> 1) Only the most hard-core ever bother with this thread.
> 
> 2) Therefore the seller won't get trolled, the situation being what it is.
> 
> Given all the cyberwarefare going on, this is not a silly concern. I hope dear reader you are gentle, and regardless of orientation will leave people in peace.
> 
> The key thing being that part of the proceeds of any purchase is going to the Ukrainian army and associated humanitarian efforts. If that troubles you in any way, please go in peace.
> 
> That out of the way, many of you probably know this seller, but I'll lay out the pros and cons for those who may not.
> 
> Cons: Lots of Frankens on the site. You must do your due diligence. Everything is serviced, but not always well, ask for timegrapher readings. Everything is pretty expensive, now more than ever.
> 
> Pros: The dealer is a great guy, never a problem doing business with him. If you don't like what you see from the timegrapher reading, and he can't get it any better, never a problem getting a refund (though do expect to pay up first). Ditto if you get it and it has a mechanical problem, he will be happy to take it back to fix. Photos are great and truthful, what you see is what you will get. If you need more, just ask. But I don't think complaining about a Franken will get you anywhere, so do this all upfront. Shipping is great. The great stuff that does get posted is really great, the expense worth it in my opinion. Especially since this is more than just about buying watches, if you are happy about where the money is going, and I have no doubt it is.
> 
> I think the pros outweigh the cons. You may not and that's ok. Only one thing I ask from forum members inclined to this is, since if someone posts a question about a piece here, we all know the source, so kindly please don't poach. If the consensus is that it's right, but you as poster decide not to buy, please let everyone know so they will have the opportunity if desired.
> 
> Lastly, please keep in mind that missiles are still being lobbed at Lviv. The seller is really honest, the packages are going out, you will get a real tracking number. But that does not mean you will get your watches. If you don't get your watches, best treat you payment as a donation to the Ukrainian economy.
> 
> I think that's it. I'm happy as always to discuss and will keep an eye out here. Happy hunting.


Since someone asked I'm bumping this. I'll do it periodically in case some new folks come wandering through.


----------



## palletwheel

mtt-mrk said:


> Without necessarily mentioning the seller, I guess it's Ebay? thanks


Please see my prior post and expand what it was I'm replying to.


----------



## Johanaxe66

*Raketa 24 h - Legit or franken?*

Edit: I have reposted this question in this thread after first by misstake creating a new thread for this single question. Sorry about that 

I have spotted this Raketa 24 h watch, but I am not really sure if it is a model that has been released or just something that has been put together from different watches. This combination of dial and rotating bezel can be found quite often for these watches if you search for Raketas with 24 h movement, but is it a legit combination?

























































Mroatman has a watch with what seems to be the same dial/bezel combination, but that one has a gold plated case:


----------



## AaParker

Johanaxe66 said:


> *Raketa 24 h - Legit or franken?*
> 
> Edit: I have reposted this question in this thread after first by misstake creating a new thread for this single question. Sorry about that
> 
> I have spotted this Raketa 24 h watch, but I am not really sure if it is a model that has been released or just something that has been put together from different watches. This combination of dial and rotating bezel can be found quite often for these watches if you search for Raketas with 24 h movement, but is it a legit combination?
> View attachment 16696144
> 
> View attachment 16696145
> 
> View attachment 16696146
> 
> View attachment 16696147
> 
> View attachment 16696148
> 
> View attachment 16696149
> 
> View attachment 16696150
> 
> 
> Mroatman has a watch with what seems to be the same dial/bezel combination, but that one has a gold plated case:
> View attachment 16696138


From the 1986 Raketa catalog:


----------



## Johanaxe66

AaParker said:


> From the 1986 Raketa catalog:
> 
> View attachment 16696870


Wonderful, thank you very much! 
The only thing is that the catalog displays the "Mroatman version" with a gold plated case. But... very close! 🙂


----------



## AaParker

Johanaxe66 said:


> Wonderful, thank you very much!
> The only thing is that the catalog displays the "Mroatman version" with a gold plated case. But... very close! 🙂









__





Retro catalogue – Ракета (World)







raketa.com


----------



## Johanaxe66

AaParker said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Retro catalogue – Ракета (World)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> raketa.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16697082
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 16697073


Perfect, that's more like it! 😉
So, it seems that the current combination of dial/bezel and stainless case really did exist and that's really good news for me, thank you very much! The excellent pictures from the catalog also exposes the black ring surrounding the crystal. Wonderful! 
If compared to the Arctic/Polar/Navy version (or whatever you call it) one can spot an interesting difference. While the dial above shows the odd numbers (1..23), the Polar version exposes the even numbers. The watch in the picture below is BTW on its way home to me, if it manages to leave Ukraine during the current circumstances.


----------



## gp20

Johanaxe66 said:


> Perfect, that's more like it! 😉
> So, it seems that the current combination of dial/bezel and stainless case really did exist and that's really good news for me, thank you very much! The excellent pictures from the catalog also exposes the black ring surrounding the crystal. Wonderful!
> If compared to the Arctic/Polar/Navy version (or whatever you call it) one can spot an interesting difference. While the dial above shows the odd numbers (1..23), the Polar version exposes the even numbers. The watch in the picture below is BTW on its way home to me, if it manages to leave Ukraine during the current circumstances.
> View attachment 16697429


I think the glass was changed. It must be a "dome"...


----------



## Johanaxe66

gp20 said:


> I think the glass was changed. It must be a "dome"...


I didn't see that, but you are probably right about the glass. The opposite situation compared to the Big Zero, that should not have the dome shaped glass (been there, done that... 😎).


----------



## tranzchina

Appreciate any help identifying this. I know it does not say komandirskie or generalskie and never saw this case type before. TIA 
























Thanks 🙏


----------



## Odessa200

tranzchina said:


> Appreciate any help identifying this. I know it does not say komandirskie or generalskie and never saw this case type before. TIA
> View attachment 16698485
> 
> View attachment 16698487
> View attachment 16698490
> 
> 
> Thanks 🙏


This is Admiral’s watch…. I am quite certain no admiral ever consider putting anything like this on his wrist but I digress 

Whatever or not the watch/bezel combo is legit I do not know but given these watches were done during early 90s everything is possible.


----------



## 979greenwich

This is how you wear it...Vorovskie.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> This is how you wear it...Vorovskie.


Yep. This is expected bezel. I have one just like that as well. Probably will put it for sale


----------



## 979greenwich

Tried that, no one wanted it. I wonder why...


----------



## oac

Hi all,

First post here - what an amazing place with more information than I can possibly consume about this single watch model!

I'm looking for a Raketa Copernicus (as it seems many before me have also done) as a gift, I've checked the threads on here to see if I can get my head around all the clues for authenticity.

I was ideally looking for a white/champagne dial with silver bezel.

Does this look right to you guys? It seems to have the correct movement (2609.HП rather than HA). Many seem to state the number of jewels (between 17 and 22?), but I can't see what the correct number should be...









Rare USSR Soviet Russian Raketa Copernic Copernicus Kopernik Space Galaxy Watch | eBay


The watch work perfectly and had been serviced recently. What you see on the pictures is what you get.



www.ebay.co.uk





Or









Raketa Copernic Copernicus mechanical 2609 HП Soviet Era mens Moon Sun watch | eBay


It was made in Soviet Era. Wristwatches is in good condition.



www.ebay.co.uk





Many thanks in advance!


----------



## 979greenwich

I think they both have replacement incorrect crystals, nr. 2 also has an incorrect crown.


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## oac

979greenwich said:


> I think they both have replacement incorrect crystals, nr. 2 also has an incorrect crown.


Thanks so much. I will take another look. If anyone knows a more reliable supplier please let me know! There seem to be plenty available on Etsy and EBay.


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## Odessa200

oac said:


> Thanks so much. I will take another look. If anyone knows a more reliable supplier please let me know! There seem to be plenty available on Etsy and EBay.


these watches were made 30 years ago… there are no reliable suppliers left :-(
We all just searching ebay. Btw: finding a square crystal is not that hard. 1st watch is quite nice. Then ask your watchmaker to install a square crystal…


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## 979greenwich

There's even less chance for that. Original glass was telescope shaped.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> There's even less chance for that. Original glass was telescope shaped.


The original glass is a plain square shape. Nothing ‘telescopic’ about the glass. Glass + the case form a telescope shape. Case has 2 segments and glass add 1 more.


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## 979greenwich

Not squared, but also not domed.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Not squared, but also not domed.


do you mind taking a straight side photo? Not angled. Here is a fully authentic crystal and the plxe where you can order a replacement that will not be exact but damn good approximation.


----------



## 979greenwich

It's not stepped on the outside, just appears to be.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> It's not stepped on the outside, just appears to be.


Not sure what is ‘it’ but if you get a ‘too flat’ crystal adding a small bevel is a 10 mins work. It is plastic after all… 😜


Alternatively you contact a person who can make any crystal. Take a look at this NVCh-30 work. Not bad. But it will coat you….


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 16701927
> 
> View attachment 16701926
> 
> View attachment 16701928
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what is ‘it’ but if you get a ‘too flat’ crystal adding a small bevel is a 10 mins work. It is plastic after all… 😜
> 
> 
> Alternatively you contact a person who can make any crystal. Take a look at this NVCh-30 work. Not bad. But it will coat you….


Damn, learn something new about these every day! I just checked mine, has the bevel just as you say, never noticed that. 

It came to me as NOS and I believe it. I am almost sorry I put it on the strap because my skills are such I flaked the coating in one tiny spot on the bottom of one lug. I wear it only on very special occasions. The chrome plating on this is so thin in spots that you can almost see the glow of the brass underneath in bright light. Even winding it has affected the look of the chrome on the crown. Such a beautiful watch/design, a pity the manufacturing era was not equal to it.


----------



## 979greenwich

My wife uses the black one as a beater, and I think the coating is not better or worse than modern PVD. Mostly the crown suffered.
Keeping it safe from water is a problem. I had to rebuild it because the water/humidity caused rust that welded the keyless works together. Had to pull the crown out with pliers.


----------



## palletwheel

All I can say is that overall I've found, on the cases especially, 65 year old Pobedas held up much better than 80s watches from all the brands when worn. The best ones I find from the 80s clearly were hanging around in some kind of collection, whereas all the Pobedas were very much loved.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> All I can say is that overall I've found, on the cases especially, 65 year old Pobedas held up much better than 80s watches from all the brands when worn. The best ones I find from the 80s clearly were hanging around in some kind of collection, whereas all the Pobedas were very much loved.


yep, old chrome was done right!


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a Sportivnie that I'd appreciate some comments on. The crown is something I'm most uncertain about, there is in fact the same listing twice for this on @mroatman but with diffevent crowns. Always appreciate the feedback, thanks.





__





Sportivnie | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Sportivnie, Спортивные, Hacking, Timing, Sports, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com









__





Sportivnie | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Sportivnie, Спортивные, Hacking, Timing, Sports, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## Odessa200

Looks good to me. Hands are relumed.
I think the 2 slightly different crowns were used. One has the step next to the body and one does not. Your crown does look a tiny bit different but potentially also right. 
Here are mine


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me. Hands are relumed.
> I think the 2 slightly different crowns were used. One has the step next to the body and one does not. Your crown does look a tiny bit different but potentially also right.
> Here are mine
> View attachment 16704003
> 
> View attachment 16704015


Thanks for this. Yeah, it's a bit tough, it's a question of how much slope is appropriate following the crown grooves. It does seem reasonable, the key thing on mine is its not flat, that would clearly be wrong, and the size is right. After that you get the issue of production variation. Either that or it's a really sensitive replacement. I went for it 😀


----------



## palletwheel

Here's an interesting Luch, a medical model. I can't find a match for it, though I think the movement is ok and it looks all of a piece. However, the dial markers at 40 and 55 min have some kind of printing effect. I can't tell if that's because of some medical info at those markers or something else. Is anyone familiar with this? Thanks as always.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's an interesting Luch, a medical model. I can't find a match for it, though I think the movement is ok and it looks all of a piece. However, the dial markers at 40 and 55 min have some kind of printing effect. I can't tell if that's because of some medical info at those markers or something else. Is anyone familiar with this? Thanks as always.


Good luch. The movement is a bit older than the watch. The dial allows you to measure the pulse but counting 15 beats from 0 or 30 secs mark and reading the pulse from the scale.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks for this. Yeah, it's a bit tough, it's a question of how much slope is appropriate following the crown grooves. It does seem reasonable, the key thing on mine is its not flat, that would clearly be wrong, and the size is right. After that you get the issue of production variation. Either that or it's a really sensitive replacement. I went for it 😀


Here are 2 more of mine that I think are also original. Take a look. I think you made a right decision


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Good luch. The movement is a bit older than the watch. The dial allows you to measure the pulse but counting 15 beats from 0 or 30 secs mark and reading the pulse from the scale.


Thanks. I'm still learning these, please let me know what the right movement should be here.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Here are 2 more of mine that I think are also original. Take a look. I think you made a right decision
> View attachment 16704314
> 
> View attachment 16704313


Thanks for the photos. I'd really like to track down each of these for my own collection.


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a supposed stainless steel Poljot de Luxe. Is there really such a thing? Many thanks!


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## Adrenaline96

palletwheel said:


> Here's a supposed stainless steel Poljot de Luxe. Is there really such a thing? Many thanks!


Yes there were, visit mroatman's website, he has a few posted there. Your example, I don't know, it kinda looks like the case of a st. steel model but the difference is the rounded lugs, those cases have angular lugs, so probably not the right thing. Most st. steel cases on these automatic de luxes look like this:









If you want a st. steel de luxe here's one: SEKONDA POLJOT DE LUXE Soviet Russian watch AUTOMATIC Case Stainless Steel | eBay In excellent condition but the price seems ridiculous to me, I tried to negotiate with the seller and while he's willing to drop the price, I don't think you can get it down to the right price, but if you have the money why not...

There are also manual wind 2209s with st. steel cases, even rarer.


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks. I'm still learning these, please let me know what the right movement should be here.


the dial has the later logo (sharply angled letter L) so the movement corresponding to this dial needs to have same logo. You movements is of the 1st generation. Here are the matching couples.


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## Odessa200

Adrenaline96 said:


> Yes there were, visit mroatman's website, he has a few posted there. Your example, I don't know, it kinda looks like the case of a st. steel model but the difference is the rounded lugs, those cases have angular lugs, so probably not the right thing. Most st. steel cases on these automatic de luxes look like this:
> 
> View attachment 16704778
> 
> 
> If you want a st. steel de luxe here's one: SEKONDA POLJOT DE LUXE Soviet Russian watch AUTOMATIC Case Stainless Steel | eBay In excellent condition but the price seems ridiculous to me, I tried to negotiate with the seller and while he's willing to drop the price, I don't think you can get it down to the right price, but if you have the money why not...
> 
> There are also manual wind 2209s with st. steel cases, even rarer.


I agree. All listed SS cases are not beveled legs. But I failed to locate the beveled case as shown ( ss or not).


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> the dial has the later logo (sharply angled letter L) so the movement corresponding to this dial needs to have same logo. You movements is of the 1st generation. Here are the matching couples.
> View attachment 16705049
> 
> 
> View attachment 16705053
> 
> 
> View attachment 16705054
> 
> 
> View attachment 16705056


Thank you for this! One question, this Luch I bought (and we discussed at one point) has the old signature on the dial but Beam logo on the movement and case back. The squared off lugs would indicate a later case too. So were there transition watches, or if Luch liked, just used the earlier signature?





__





Luch | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Luch, Луч, Ray, Beam, Ultra-Thin, 2209, Minsk, Belarus, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## palletwheel

Adrenaline96 said:


> Yes there were, visit mroatman's website, he has a few posted there. Your example, I don't know, it kinda looks like the case of a st. steel model but the difference is the rounded lugs, those cases have angular lugs, so probably not the right thing. Most st. steel cases on these automatic de luxes look like this:
> 
> View attachment 16704778
> 
> 
> If you want a st. steel de luxe here's one: SEKONDA POLJOT DE LUXE Soviet Russian watch AUTOMATIC Case Stainless Steel | eBay In excellent condition but the price seems ridiculous to me, I tried to negotiate with the seller and while he's willing to drop the price, I don't think you can get it down to the right price, but if you have the money why not...
> 
> There are also manual wind 2209s with st. steel cases, even rarer.


Really, thank you (and @Odessa200) for you time. Thanks also for the ebay tip. Have you worked with that seller? Any info on him you can pass along? Concerned about the servicing, if any. I can't do it so I have to buy from reliable people who do what they say in that regard (or will after I see an honest timegrapher reading). Appreciate all your help.

BTW, its no surprise about the cost. These days it seems if a seller has something really good they want bigger money for it. The war and inflation I think are the drivers, I think they feel they don't want to part with the good stuff for small change, genuine items actually being in short supply. You can troll a long time before even coming up with a viable item to even research, let alone buy.


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## Adrenaline96

palletwheel said:


> Really, thank you (and @Odessa200) for you time. Thanks also for the ebay tip. Have you worked with that seller? Any info on him you can pass along? Concerned about the servicing, if any. I can't do it so I have to buy from reliable people who do what they say in that regard (or will after I see an honest timegrapher reading). Appreciate all your help.
> 
> BTW, its no surprise about the cost. These days it seems if a seller has something really good they want bigger money for it. The war and inflation I think are the drivers, I think they feel they don't want to part with the good stuff for small change, genuine items actually being in short supply. You can troll a long time before even coming up with a viable item to even research, let alone buy.


Most likely a good seller, considering the ebay reviews, you can buy it if you want, pristine example, I think it's 100% original but let Odessa say his opinion too.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thank you for this! One question, this Luch I bought (and we discussed at one point) has the old signature on the dial but Beam logo on the movement and case back. The squared off lugs would indicate a later case too. So were there transition watches, or if Luch liked, just used the earlier signature?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Luch | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Luch, Луч, Ray, Beam, Ultra-Thin, 2209, Minsk, Belarus, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


That is correct. This is a well known exemption from the rule but it is a bit different. The older stile dial was used with the newer case/movement. is it possible that the oposite may exist? Possible but I did not see many legit cases that will allow to say for sure.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> That is correct. This is a well known exemption from the rule but it is a bit different. The older stile dial was used with the newer case/movement. is it possible that the oposite may exist? Possible but I did not see many legit cases that will allow to say for sure.


Thanks for this. One other thing as this has been the first Luch 2209 I was able to get. It's amazing how adulterated these and the Poljots are. Unlike every other Soviet watch I've owned I found this one pretty stiff to wind. Is this a characteristic of these Luch/Poljot 2209 movements? Otherwise there may be something wrong, though it seems to run fine, and I've also noticed that the gold plating on the case is worn away from winding the watch. Thanks as always.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Thanks for this. One other thing as this has been the first Luch 2209 I was able to get. It's amazing how adulterated these and the Poljots are. Unlike every other Soviet watch I've owned I found this one pretty stiff to wind. Is this a characteristic of these Luch/Poljot 2209 movements? Otherwise there may be something wrong, though it seems to run fine, and I've also noticed that the gold plating on the case is worn away from winding the watch. Thanks as always.


yes, this is a general trend. Small crown does not help either. When freshly serviced keyless gears and mainspring make it much easier to wind. But with time the winding becomes harder.


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## Johanaxe66

*Poljot Kapitan - Legit or franken?*
I got a tip from a Comrade whom had discovered an interesting Poljot Chronograph for sale. He wasn't interested in buying it himself so I was asked if I would be.
I took I look at the object comparing it to what is presented at the Polmax site with the words: "Limited availablity of this model make it a must purchase when available" Would this actually be the rare Poljot Kapitan?




__





Poljot Kapitan







www.mfkrlives.com




The pictures made by the seller revealed a watch that seemed to be in really good condition and, at least to my eyes, with the right attributes. The seller accepted my offer and less than two weeks later an exiting unboxing took place.
What I found was a watch in almost 100% perfect condition. Besides some shallow marks in the plexi crystal the watch seemed to be absolutely unused. Had it ever been serviced?









The back shows no major traces of weare.









The movement is SU stamped and has the silver coloured balans wheel and shock protection, so I guess it should be dated no earlier than late 1992.









No signs of ware on crowns or pushers. And the edges of the glass are really sharp.

















The timegrapher shows quite impressive figures. As a friend put it, it's either newly serviced or running dry...









In my eyes a really good looking watch.









So, what is your verdict? Is it fake or a really rare find?


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> yes, this is a general trend. Small crown does not help either. When freshly serviced keyless gears and mainspring make it much easier to wind. But with time the winding becomes harder.


I have the Vostok and Raketa 2209 and don't experience this, small crowns and all. Given your deep experience I figured I'd ask, what is it about this 2209 design that is the cause of this in your opinion?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> I have the Vostok and Raketa 2209 and don't experience this, small crowns and all. Given your deep experience I figured I'd ask, what is it about this 2209 design that is the cause of this in your opinion?


yes, it the movement. If you take a look you will see that the keyless has an extra wheel. To fit an extra wheel into a small movement they had ti make them smaller. So the winding is somewhat stiff.


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> yes, it the movement. If you take a look you will see that the keyless has an extra wheel. To fit an extra wheel into a small movement they had ti make them smaller. So the winding is somewhat stiff.


In your opinion why do you think they did that? Was it the way they decided to flatten things out required an extra gear because they wouldn't be able to get the correct gear ratio if they tried to do it with two gears?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> In your opinion why do you think they did that? Was it the way they decided to flatten things out required an extra gear because they wouldn't be able to get the correct gear ratio if they tried to do it with two gears?


I am not sure. Probably because they were making this super small and slim caliber…


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## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> I am not sure. Probably because they were making this super small and slim caliber…


Well, it sort of leads to the next question. There are three 2209 calibres. While the Raketa design might be superior its also a bit more complicated to make than the other two, nor that much thinner, so its understandable that it was never chosen for large scale export. But the Vostok version seems better than the Poljot version, and it's comparable in cost to make and equally thin. So why did the Poljot/Luch version end up with the lions share of exports? Did it really just come down to political connections? If you happen to know some of the history it would be great to hear your insights. Many thanks.


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## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Well, it sort of leads to the next question. There are three 2209 calibres. While the Raketa design might be superior its also a bit more complicated to make than the other two, nor that much thinner, so its understandable that it was never chosen for large scale export. But the Vostok version seems better than the Poljot version, and it's comparable in cost to make and equally thin. So why did the Poljot/Luch version end up with the lions share of exports? Did it really just come down to political connections? If you happen to know some of the history it would be great to hear your insights. Many thanks.


Sorry to object ‘there are three 2209 calibers’ statement. We cannot compare apples and oranges. These calibers have absolutely nothing in common aside from being watch calibers and being 22 mm in diameter and having shockproof and central second hand. Vostok is a bit thicker: 3.3 mm. Raketa’s 2209 did not last long due to reliability issues.
I am not sure Poljot and Luch won the export battle: there are a LOT of export Vostoks. Huge amount. But I do not have any export stats.


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Sorry to object ‘there are three 2209 calibers’ statement. We cannot compare apples and oranges. These calibers have absolutely nothing in common aside from being watch calibers and being 22 mm in diameter and having shockproof and central second hand. Vostok is a bit thicker: 3.3 mm. Raketa’s 2209 did not last long due to reliability issues.
> I am not sure Poljot and Luch won the export battle: there are a LOT of export Vostoks. Huge amount. But I do not have any export stats.


Agreed of course they are all different. But they are all different ways of achieving an "ultra thin" movement, which may have been the bureaucratic remit. Was that a purposeful remit or something more organic? Was there a political preference or did the businesses just move in different directions. Perhaps the answers are lost in time. 

For what it's worth, ranffit has a different perspective on Raketa 2209 reliability. But of the three it would have certainly been the more expensive to produce.






bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Raketa 2209







www.ranfft.de


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Agreed of course they are all different. But they are all different ways of achieving an "ultra thin" movement, which may have been the bureaucratic remit. Was that a purposeful remit or something more organic? Was there a political preference or did the businesses just move in different directions. Perhaps the answers are lost in time.
> 
> For what it's worth, ranffit has a different perspective on Raketa 2209 reliability. But of the three it would have certainly been the more expensive to produce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Raketa 2209
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ranfft.de


the reliability issue with Raketa 2209 is about keyless. People say it is not that reliable as a typical Soviet watch. Personally I never had any issues maybe because I wind and change time extremely carefully….


----------



## miroman

A little off-topic:
The key-less in Raketa 2209 is fine, this problem exists in Poljot 2209.
The main problem with Raketa 2209 is an additional wheel. It leads to an uneven distribution of pressure from the main spring (which is small and weak), so it's very difficult to see an amplitude more than 220-230 degrees, even on freshly oiled movement. The line on the timegrapher is also uneven.
The other issue with Raketa 2209 is shuttering because of the indirect central second's hand pinion. Of course, not every movement has it, but if present, it's not easy to fix it.
And one thing concerning watchmakers - very fragile balance, too easy to distort the hairspring. Once distorted, fixing is very, very difficult task (because of the thickness of the movement). A good watchmaker would be careful enough, but anybody without experience exactly on this movement, easy can distort it.


----------



## palletwheel

miroman said:


> A little off-topic:
> The key-less in Raketa 2209 is fine, this problem exists in Poljot 2209.
> The main problem with Raketa 2209 is an additional wheel. It leads to an uneven distribution of pressure from the main spring (which is small and weak), so it's very difficult to see an amplitude more than 220-230 degrees, even on freshly oiled movement. The line on the timegrapher is also uneven.
> The other issue with Raketa 2209 is shuttering because of the indirect central second's hand pinion. Of course, not every movement has it, but if present, it's not easy to fix it.
> And one thing concerning watchmakers - very fragile balance, too easy to distort the hairspring. Once distorted, fixing is very, very difficult task (because of the thickness of the movement). A good watchmaker would be careful enough, but anybody without experience exactly on this movement, easy can distort it.


The question is what was the Raketa 2209 like when it was new, or if as was expected proper replacement parts used by a well trained watchmaker? Was amplitude and second hand stuttering still an issue? 

As we all know here thinness is a complication. Besides great design you need great execution to pull it off. That's what makes these great to study. It's really a statement of Soviet industrial aspiration to have done all of these thin movements. Then the important question is, was the design and execution equal to the aspiration? I think the design of the Raketa 2209 is really elegant, but were they able to manufacture them so they worked well? Trying to figure that out from worn movements is difficult. These things are not Pobedas, which continue to amaze me in how well they can work given such worn parts. Movements such as these, while elegant, cannot do as well under these circumstances. Elegance comes at a cost. If anyone has commentary from when these were made that would be great.


----------



## PiersCM

Hello all,

I mostly collect Rolex watches ( as seen on the Rolex forum ), but wanted to dabble with some *Vintage Russian* watches. It's always tickled my curiosity as it were.

If anyone feels inclined to comment on the links below, I'd be *most appreciative*.
I'm looking for watches to wear and be ( I hope ) reliable, but don't wish to buy a 'lemon'...

Sturmanskie Yuri Gagarin (STW1306G5) Watch

ORBITA POLJOT DE LUXE 2415 AUTOMATIC SELF WINDING SPACE SOVIET WATCH EXCELLENT

Soviet LUCH Electro Mechanical, great condition, keeps great time

Soviet Vintage Watch BURAN Military Watch

Thank you.


----------



## Avidfan

PiersCM said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I mostly collect Rolex watches ( as seen on the Rolex forum ), but wanted to dabble with some *Vintage Russian* watches. It's always tickled my curiosity as it were.
> 
> If anyone feels inclined to comment on the links below, I'd be *most appreciative*.
> I'm looking for watches to wear and be ( I hope ) reliable, but don't wish to buy a 'lemon'...
> 
> Sturmanskie Yuri Gagarin (STW1306G5) Watch
> 
> ORBITA POLJOT DE LUXE 2415 AUTOMATIC SELF WINDING SPACE SOVIET WATCH EXCELLENT
> 
> Soviet LUCH Electro Mechanical, great condition, keeps great time
> Soviet Vintage Watch BURAN Military Watch
> 
> Thank you.


You need to redo your links, three of them are to the same watch


----------



## PiersCM

Avidfan said:


> You need to redo your links, three of them are to the same watch


Thank you - hopefully ok now...


----------



## Odessa200

PiersCM said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I mostly collect Rolex watches ( as seen on the Rolex forum ), but wanted to dabble with some *Vintage Russian* watches. It's always tickled my curiosity as it were.
> 
> If anyone feels inclined to comment on the links below, I'd be *most appreciative*.
> I'm looking for watches to wear and be ( I hope ) reliable, but don't wish to buy a 'lemon'...
> 
> Sturmanskie Yuri Gagarin (STW1306G5) Watch
> 
> ORBITA POLJOT DE LUXE 2415 AUTOMATIC SELF WINDING SPACE SOVIET WATCH EXCELLENT
> 
> Soviet LUCH Electro Mechanical, great condition, keeps great time
> 
> Soviet Vintage Watch BURAN Military Watch
> 
> Thank you.


Welcome!

1) modern ‘souvenir’. Nothing to do with the true Shturmanskie. It has a cheep quartz movement. Will probably run Ok but, as I said, this is a souvenir trying to capitalize on a brand.

2) Franken. This is a modern reproduction dial. The case is not from Orbita but from a regular export Poljot. Movement is legit. This ‘plastic hand’ seller sells mostly franken watches. 

3) I do not know much about quartz watches. Looks legit to me but wait for another forum member to opine.

4) another fake/souvenir watch. This time grossly overpriced. Not a real Soviet/Russian.

Number 3 is by far your best pick. Orbita can be considered if you do not care about authenticity. 

There are many legit waches for sale that can be worn daily and will not cost much. Obviously you want to pick a serviced watch unless you can do it or have a good watchmaker.


----------



## PiersCM

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> 1) modern ‘souvenir’. Nothing to do with the true Shturmanskie. It has a cheep quartz movement. Will probably run Ok but, as I said, this is a souvenir trying to capitalize on a brand.
> 
> 2) Franken. This is a modern reproduction dial. The case is not from Orbita but from a regular export Poljot. Movement is legit. This ‘plastic hand’ seller sells mostly franken watches.
> 
> 3) I do not know much about quartz watches. Looks legit to me but wait for another forum member to opine.
> 
> 4) another fake/souvenir watch. This time grossly overpriced. Not a real Soviet/Russian.
> 
> Number 3 is by far your best pick. Orbita can be considered if you do not care about authenticity.
> 
> There are many legit waches for sale that can be worn daily and will not cost much. Obviously you want to pick a serviced watch unless you can do it or have a good watchmaker.


*Thank you, that is SO useful.*
( I'm pretty good with spotting [and reporting] 'bad' Rolex and Canada Goose, but this is a whole new world to me!)


----------



## Odessa200

PiersCM said:


> *Thank you, that is SO useful.*
> ( I'm pretty good with spotting [and reporting] 'bad' Rolex and Canada Goose, but this is a whole new world to me!)


o yea. Many people believe that cheaper Soviet watches are not faked (cause there is no money in them) but this is a mistake. Same issues as with more expensive brands.
We are here happy to help!


----------



## miroman

Just to mention - "Orbita" is more a collectible watch, than a regular-wear one. It's the same as "Poljot De Luxe", but it's rarity causes it's price to be higher. A good "De Luxe" can be found at 1/3 to 1/4 of the price of "Orbita". There are a lot of frankens, so it's a good idea to discuss it here before buying.
Luch is not a quartz watch, but electro-mechanical. It has a balance, which makes him fragile as usual mechanical watch. And therefore it's accuracy if very far from a quartz watch.


----------



## Odessa200

miroman said:


> Just to mention - "Orbita" is more a collectible watch, than a regular-wear one. It's the same as "Poljot De Luxe", but it's rarity causes it's price to be higher. A good "De Luxe" can be found at 1/3 to 1/4 of the price of "Orbita". There are a lot of frankens, so it's a good idea to discuss it here before buying.
> Luch is not a quartz watch, but electro-mechanical. It has a balance, which makes him fragile as usual mechanical watch. And therefore it's accuracy if very far from a quartz watch.


you are right on the Luck.  I had grossly misspoke


----------



## gp20

PiersCM said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I mostly collect Rolex watches ( as seen on the Rolex forum ), but wanted to dabble with some *Vintage Russian* watches. It's always tickled my curiosity as it were.
> 
> If anyone feels inclined to comment on the links below, I'd be *most appreciative*.
> I'm looking for watches to wear and be ( I hope ) reliable, but don't wish to buy a 'lemon'...
> 
> Sturmanskie Yuri Gagarin (STW1306G5) Watch
> 
> ORBITA POLJOT DE LUXE 2415 AUTOMATIC SELF WINDING SPACE SOVIET WATCH EXCELLENT
> 
> Soviet LUCH Electro Mechanical, great condition, keeps great time
> 
> Soviet Vintage Watch BURAN Military Watch
> 
> Thank you.


Sturmanskie seems a very bad fake. You must forget this one. 😕


----------



## Sergei T.

During the weekend went to flea market and got this Vostok, and would like to share with you the pics and let the gurus answer how much authentic it is...


----------



## Odessa200

Sergei T. said:


> During the weekend went to flea market and got this Vostok, and would like to share with you the pics and let the gurus answer how much authentic it is...
> 
> View attachment 16723077
> 
> 
> View attachment 16723079
> 
> 
> View attachment 16723080


Looks authentic to me from the front. The back cover is wrong and the antimagnetic shield is missing. This is how it should look from the back.


----------



## Sergei T.

Thanks @Odessa200 
Went to another thread to look for that missed parts, eBay does not have such... If you have spare I would be glad to get them!


----------



## Ligavesh

PiersCM said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I mostly collect Rolex watches ( as seen on the Rolex forum ), but wanted to dabble with some *Vintage Russian* watches. It's always tickled my curiosity as it were.
> 
> If anyone feels inclined to comment on the links below, I'd be *most appreciative*.
> I'm looking for watches to wear and be ( I hope ) reliable, but don't wish to buy a 'lemon'...
> 
> Sturmanskie Yuri Gagarin (STW1306G5) Watch
> 
> ORBITA POLJOT DE LUXE 2415 AUTOMATIC SELF WINDING SPACE SOVIET WATCH EXCELLENT
> 
> Soviet LUCH Electro Mechanical, great condition, keeps great time
> 
> Soviet Vintage Watch BURAN Military Watch
> 
> Thank you.


Edit: nevermind, already answered


----------



## tyronefromamsterdam

Found this in China, has a Tongji inside it, so made in China. 





















Dial: КРАСНАЯ АРМИЯ - The Red Army
Caseback: ДЛЯ АРМИ ТОЛГО - For (the) army (from) Tolgo.


Any ideas on it? Has anyone seen it before? Commemorative piece for some event?


----------



## Chascomm

tyronefromamsterdam said:


> Found this in China, has a Tongji inside it, so made in China.
> 
> 
> View attachment 16727414
> 
> 
> View attachment 16727416
> 
> 
> 
> Dial: КРАСНАЯ АРМИЯ - The Red Army
> Caseback: ДЛЯ АРМИ ТОЛГО - For (the) army (from) Tolgo.
> 
> 
> Any ideas on it? Has anyone seen it before? Commemorative piece for some event?


See my reply on the Chinese forum.


----------



## steros

Sergei T. said:


> Thanks @Odessa200
> Went to another thread to look for that missed parts, eBay does not have such... If you have spare I would be glad to get them!


It should be easy to find a cheap broken donor watch from wich you can harvest those parts, if you want to make your nice find (why do I never find a flee market like that?) all correct.


----------



## gp20

What do you think? Fake or not ?


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks like a mix of there two:








Vostok Amphibia Sol dell'Avvenire - russian-watches.it


Il Vostok con un bel Sol dell’Avvenire rosso che vi presento oggi lo posseggo in due conformazioni. Non ho indagato i cataloghi ma ‘a sentimento’ quella più corretta mi pare quella “Amphibia” che nel mio caso ha -purtroppo- sfere alle quale il tempo ha polverizzato il materiale luminescente...




russian-watches.it


----------



## gp20

979greenwich said:


> Looks like a mix of there two:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok Amphibia Sol dell'Avvenire - russian-watches.it
> 
> 
> Il Vostok con un bel Sol dell’Avvenire rosso che vi presento oggi lo posseggo in due conformazioni. Non ho indagato i cataloghi ma ‘a sentimento’ quella più corretta mi pare quella “Amphibia” che nel mio caso ha -purtroppo- sfere alle quale il tempo ha polverizzato il materiale luminescente...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> russian-watches.it


Thanks ! You are right, it's a mix (fake hand)...


----------



## palletwheel

Here's an interesting Kirovskie. I can't recall if we discussed this model in this thread, but I don't see it on @mroatman. It looks like it could be right. Thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## AaParker

palletwheel said:


> Here's an interesting Kirovskie. I can't recall if we discussed this model in this thread, but I don't see it on @mroatman. It looks like it could be right. Thoughts would be appreciated.


Certainly not super-common, but I have seen them occasionally for sale. Crown and hands look correct. I think the movement looks original too, but I will leave that to the experts.  Here's mine:


----------



## palletwheel

AaParker said:


> Certainly not super-common, but I have seen them occasionally for sale. Crown and hands look correct. I think the movement looks original too, but I will leave that to the experts.  Here's mine:
> 
> View attachment 16746372


Note your seconds hand doesn't have an arrow point at the end. Some Kirovskies did, but did this one? 2408 movement was typical unless there is something special about this one, from what I can see from the photo it is a correct 2408, unless I missed something. Thanks for the help!


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Here's an interesting Kirovskie. I can't recall if we discussed this model in this thread, but I don't see it on @mroatman. It looks like it could be right. Thoughts would be appreciated.


all good. Here is the proof.


----------



## Mhturner

I’ve been looking for a Raketa domino / telephone for a while as I love the look of them. I came across this on eBay. It is in suspiciously good shape, and the description says that it “needs a battery” despite this watch’s original movement being mechanical. I messaged the seller but haven’t gotten any response yet. They have good seller reviews. Would you all steer clear without a good picture of the movement? Is it possible that they just haven’t opened the back and are assuming that it’s quartz? Or is this too many red flags? Any advice would be appreciated!

eBay listing


----------



## Chascomm

Mhturner said:


> I’ve been looking for a Raketa domino / telephone for a while as I love the look of them. I came across this on eBay. It is in suspiciously good shape, and the description says that it “needs a battery” despite this watch’s original movement being mechanical. I messaged the seller but haven’t gotten any response yet. They have good seller reviews. Would you all steer clear without a good picture of the movement? Is it possible that they just haven’t opened the back and are assuming that it’s quartz? Or is this too many red flags? Any advice would be appreciated!
> 
> eBay listing


I'm confident that the watch is powered by a genuine Raketa 2628 because the calendar wheels are very distinctive pieces to fit this dial. However that is a high price for this kind of watch so you'd have to really love it to want to buy without adequate photos. "Needs battery" is likely to be code for "not running", as in "I'm sorry I didn't realise that the mainspring was broken. I just thought it needs a battery."


----------



## Odessa200

I bought several mechanical watches that ‘needed battery’ and some of them were just fine (needed winding) and some were broken. This looks like a new watch so I may suspect even if it is not running nothing is broken and it just needs service to replace the hardened oils. But I agree that 150$ is a bit high for a gamble. It is a fair price for a NOS well working watch. So I would wait for the seller to respond. But of course, If I really really wanted it I would take a chance


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> all good. Here is the proof.
> View attachment 16746477


Many thanks! I don't think I have the catalog this is from, I can't find it. Could you please post this catalog here?


----------



## Odessa200

palletwheel said:


> Many thanks! I don't think I have the catalog this is from, I can't find it. Could you please post this catalog here?


Here you go


----------



## Mel1729

G'day, I'm looking into Sputnik watches as i really like the aesthetic of them. There is one that I'm interested in, I'm sure it's a 'redial' as it's listed as a Pobeda Sputnik which is fine with me. I just wanted to get more insight regarding the movement in this watch and see if it would be reliable for semi-daily use? Cheers


----------



## Odessa200

Mel1729 said:


> G'day, I'm looking into Sputnik watches as i really like the aesthetic of them. There is one that I'm interested in, I'm sure it's a 'redial' as it's listed as a Pobeda Sputnik which is fine with me. I just wanted to get more insight regarding the movement in this watch and see if it would be reliable for semi-daily use? Cheers
> View attachment 16748567
> 
> View attachment 16748566
> 
> View attachment 16748565


welcome comrade. It is not just a redial but a complete fake. There is nothing right or authentic about this watch. Skip it.


----------



## palletwheel

I found what proports to be a Luch medical watch. I'm not totally familiar with these, so I can't tell if something is off, but overall it looks promising. Was the SU marking 1979 and later? Does anyone know when the simplification of the mobile stud carrier and ring balance was done (around 1976-77 given Ranfft examples)? Opinions as always appreciated.


----------



## Roman Ukraine

Mel1729 said:


> G'day, I'm looking into Sputnik watches as i really like the aesthetic of them. There is one that I'm interested in, I'm sure it's a 'redial' as it's listed as a Pobeda Sputnik which is fine with me. I
> View attachment 16748567


Sorry for the offtopic, I couldn't resist


----------



## pr0per

Hey I'm new to this place, sooo hi! 
I had this for a long time now, but recently I got the itch to know more about the watch I'm wearing a fair bit in my daily life. So after some digging and trying to identify it exactly, to be honest I can't really. So I'm here asking for some help, is this thing even a legit Vostok, Komandierskie? 
My father traded it with some russian soldier for a bottle of spirits back in the 80's when we still had Russians regiments stationed in the country (I don't remember unfortunately when exactly, but last Russian troops left the country in '91). And around 6-7 years back I found it when going through boxes of old stuff with him and got my hands on it, got a strap for it, and also had to have it serviced (don't remember what was wrong with it, or what type of movement it has). I would love to know if it's a genuine piece, I'll still love it nevertheless, hell I've been wearing in the past few years a decent amount, but it would a bit more the sentimental value for it, if it's genuine piece.















Any help and additional info would be appreciated ^-^ Cheers!


----------



## Odessa200

Welcome!
I think you got this watch. Late 80s or early 90s model. A workhorse of late Soviet watchmaking. Made by Vostok factory.


----------



## PiersCM

Thank you for all the comments.

In the end I decided to play safer, and bought a new: Sputnik Heritage.


----------



## pr0per

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome!
> I think you got this watch. Late 80s or early 90s model. A workhorse of late Soviet watchmaking. Made by Vostok factory.
> View attachment 16752837


Thank you so much! I've done some searches earlier for the Vostok 2414A and never found any pictures close to mine, the crown was never in the same place... but searching for 331507 yielded some nice results, and the time frame of late 80's early 90's would fit the watches story pretty well, so I would guess it is most likely an original piece then. I figured Vostok and 80's-90's from the bottom text + logo as I did some reading regarding the Kommandierskie line, but never found that "model" number you posted. Only the 2414A on wikipedia based on the jewel count and that it's not an automatic watch, but never got the pictures to prove the model. Thank you again! It's great to know


----------



## jerauf

Is this a genuine Pink? Or is it just Pink'ish? Seems legit to me, after checking a couple of sources. Would appreciate any opinions, though.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Is this a genuine Pink? Or is it just Pink'ish? Seems legit to me, after checking a couple of sources. Would appreciate any opinions, though.
> 
> View attachment 16770315


looks good to me. Do you have a photo of the back and movement?


----------



## jerauf

I don't have one of the movement yet. Here is the back, though.


----------



## gp20

jerauf said:


> Is this a genuine Pink? Or is it just Pink'ish? Seems legit to me, after checking a couple of sources. Would appreciate any opinions, though.
> 
> View attachment 16770315


Legit for me too. Where do you find this beauty? I search it since a long time...


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> I don't have one of the movement yet. Here is the back, though.
> 
> View attachment 16770492


back is right. Good luck.


----------



## jerauf

@Odessa200 - Here is the movement.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> @Odessa200 - Here is the movement.
> 
> View attachment 16771092


Soviet movement with Russian balance. Transitional. I would say ‘possible’ or balance was replaced. Given the knocks on the back cover it is possible to assume the balance pivots were broken hence replacement. Not a big deal if you ask me. I would say the watch is legit.


----------



## jerauf

@Odessa200 & @gp20 - My heart thanks you. My collection thanks you for the new sibling. My wallet curses you.

I appreciate the help.

@gp20 - I found this seller on Etsy. He has a couple of them.


----------



## LargeCrab

Poljot Signal Mens Wrist Watch Alarm 18 Jewels USSR Rare Serviced Gift For Men | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Poljot Signal Mens Wrist Watch Alarm 18 Jewels USSR Rare Serviced Gift For Men at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com




How does this Signal look? Only thing I can see is wrong crowns but that's not a dealbreaker for me.


----------



## jerauf

@LargeCrab - I believe the case is wrong. But the hands look right to me for dial.


----------



## LargeCrab

Signal vintage wrist watch with alarm – SovietWatchStore.com







sovietwatchstore.com




Thoughts on this variant? Some slight marks on the dial but I believe all original.


----------



## jerauf

This one is better. To my eye, cosmetically everything is correct except for the second hand. The second hand is supposed to be gold, like on the eBay one.

Maybe others disagree, though.


----------



## palletwheel

Second hand is not just red, but wrong size, so completely wrong. Don't see anything else obvious, checking ranfft movement seems OK. 






Signal | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Signal, Сигнал, Alarm, Cricket, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com










bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Poljot 2612







www.ranfft.de


----------



## LargeCrab

palletwheel said:


> Second hand is not just red, but wrong size, so completely wrong. Don't see anything else obvious, checking ranfft movement seems OK.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Signal | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Signal, Сигнал, Alarm, Cricket, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bidfun-db Archive: Watch Movements: Poljot 2612
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ranfft.de


Thanks, just noticed that.


----------



## PiersCM

Hello,

I'd be interested in any *thoughts *on these two watches, please. Both *Raketa.*

Not seeking perfection, just a reasonable watch.

Vintage Mens RAKETA Watch Casual Soviet Retro Quartz 3056

Watch RAKETA MEDICAL Pulsometer Gold Plated AU Soviet Vintage cal2356 Quartz

Regards.


----------



## Hesp

Hello, i’m new to this and hope somebody could help me out. I read some things about fakes or ‘Frankenstein’. Any thoughts on this watch? 

Sovjet Raketa 24H Vintage Unieke USSR Horloge Militaire - Etsy Nederland

Thanks


----------



## Odessa200

Hesp said:


> Hello, i’m new to this and hope somebody could help me out. I read some things about fakes or ‘Frankenstein’. Any thoughts on this watch?
> 
> Sovjet Raketa 24H Vintage Unieke USSR Horloge Militaire - Etsy Nederland
> 
> Thanks


Hello and welcome. The watch looks legit to me. Hands position tells me that it is indeed 24h watch.


----------



## steros

This Poljot has an appealing design I think. But it cant be from ussr era, from 1970’s, as the seller claims? Is it a Poljot at all?








MINT Black VTG USSR Poljot Signal Mechanical ALARM Soviet Era Watch BZZZ Cricket | eBay


The watch is used. A beautiful black dial with a central second hand. -Case made of brass;. They were used as you can see in the photo. -12 hours dial.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> This Poljot has an appealing design I think. But it cant be from ussr era, from 1970’s, as the seller claims? Is it a Poljot at all?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MINT Black VTG USSR Poljot Signal Mechanical ALARM Soviet Era Watch BZZZ Cricket | eBay
> 
> 
> The watch is used. A beautiful black dial with a central second hand. -Case made of brass;. They were used as you can see in the photo. -12 hours dial.
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


It is a Poljot but from 90s. Looks legit


----------



## gp20

Hesp said:


> Hello, i’m new to this and hope somebody could help me out. I read some things about fakes or ‘Frankenstein’. Any thoughts on this watch?
> 
> Sovjet Raketa 24H Vintage Unieke USSR Horloge Militaire - Etsy Nederland
> 
> Thanks


Glass changed for me + wrong dials .This seller sells a lot of Franken, like often on Etsy... Run away.


----------



## gp20

PiersCM said:


> Hello,
> 
> I'd be interested in any *thoughts *on these two watches, please. Both *Raketa.*
> 
> Not seeking perfection, just a reasonable watch.
> 
> Vintage Mens RAKETA Watch Casual Soviet Retro Quartz 3056
> 
> Watch RAKETA MEDICAL Pulsometer Gold Plated AU Soviet Vintage cal2356 Quartz
> 
> Regards.


The 2nd is too expensive... You could try 150€ + 12€ for delivery.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Glass changed for me + wrong dials .This seller sells a lot of Franken, like often on Etsy... Run away.


please explain ‘wrong dial’. This watch is in the catalog…


----------



## gp20

ThE dial has a different font from the original and is too clean.
Also, the needles are different from an original.
Look at the back part of the seconds hand.
Original : 
Raketa | Watches of the USSR


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> ThE dial has a different font from the original and is too clean.
> Also, the needles are different from an original.
> Look at the back part of the seconds hand.
> Original :
> Raketa | Watches of the USSR


‘Too clean’ is not an argument: this is not a rare or that old. Look at the site you shared. I see many more that are way cleaner 

Shape of seconds hand: true, more of these watches have a slightly different hand. But look, for example, at these very similar models. See that the hands vary.










These watches were assembled at the tournament late 80s - 90s times….

Font: yea, a bit strange but I am not that convinced. The quality of the print is quite nice. Maybe legit. Maybe not.

I do not know this seller but I do agree that most watches in Etsy are fakes. I never bought anything decent from Etsy.


----------



## gp20

Les Raketa 24 heures soviétiques (1ère partie: Les 2623 et les 2623.H classiques)

Here is a gold mine on the Raketa 24h, it's in French, but we only see needles of the same kind, none have the back like this... Except the Franken lower.
Everyone does what they want, but I do not recommend buying this watch.

The icing on the cake, there is still the plastic on the bottom of the case (visible on the photo), it is an assembled Franken, not even sure that there is a 2623 in it.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Les Raketa 24 heures soviétiques (1ère partie: Les 2623 et les 2623.H classiques)
> 
> Here is a gold mine on the Raketa 24h, it's in French, but we only see needles of the same kind, none have the back like this... Except the Franken lower.
> Everyone does what they want, but I do not recommend buying this watch.
> 
> The icing on the cake, there is still the plastic on the bottom of the case (visible on the photo), it is an assembled Franken, not even sure that there is a 2623 in it.


yes, that plastic for sure does not belong there.


----------



## Hesp

Thanks for all the answers. Any reccomodations where to buy an authentic one? And is a new old stock one even possible to find?


----------



## e117

Hello! I'm searching for a vintage watch for my husband for our wedding anniversary, I'm very interested in this Raketa Copernicus - any help with verification would be appreciated! RAKETA KOPERNIK Copernicus Vintage Mens Mechanical watch Russian Soviet Ussr | eBay


----------



## palletwheel

e117 said:


> Hello! I'm searching for a vintage watch for my husband for our wedding anniversary, I'm very interested in this Raketa Copernicus - any help with verification would be appreciated! RAKETA KOPERNIK Copernicus Vintage Mens Mechanical watch Russian Soviet Ussr | eBay


You need shots of the movement. Something seems odd in that the photos don't show the Raketa logo, plus you need shots from the side to make sure you are getting the collapsed "telescope" effect of the design. The case design is like a collapsed hand held telescope, with a square crystal (which itself is slightly stepped) and stepped bezel. Even the crown mirrors this motif.

Here's mine, which should give you a good idea of what to look for.


----------



## Odessa200

e117 said:


> Hello! I'm searching for a vintage watch for my husband for our wedding anniversary, I'm very interested in this Raketa Copernicus - any help with verification would be appreciated! RAKETA KOPERNIK Copernicus Vintage Mens Mechanical watch Russian Soviet Ussr | eBay


not a bad pick! To add to the above. If you husband is not a watch collector, photo of the movement is not that critical. Basically it will be 2609.НА or 2609.НП. The later is the correct one but functionally they are the same.

what is important is, as mentioned, crystal. Ask for a side photo so we can be sure. But to me it looks Ok based on what we see.

Now, the important thing: take a look at the hands! What time is it? Before 12 or after? See the issue? Someone installed the hands wrong. This would drive me nuts. An easy fix for a watchmaker but please consider this imperfection before buying.


----------



## gp20

Also pay attention to the size of the wrist, it's 35-36 mm max, not portable for someone with a big wrist...


----------



## e117

palletwheel said:


> You need shots of the movement. Something seems odd in that the photos don't show the Raketa logo, plus you need shots from the side to make sure you are getting the collapsed "telescope" effect of the design. The case design is like a collapsed hand held telescope, with a square crystal (which itself is slightly stepped) and stepped bezel. Even the crown mirrors this motif.
> 
> Here's mine, which should give you a good idea of what to look for.


Thank you! I also thought it was odd that the Raketa logo wasn't shown in the pictures - I did ask the seller to provide additional pics, especially of the movement, but they haven't responded yet.


----------



## e117

Odessa200 said:


> not a bad pick! To add to the above. If you husband is not a watch collector, photo of the movement is not that critical. Basically it will be 2609.НА or 2609.НП. The later is the correct one but functionally they are the same.
> 
> what is important is, as mentioned, crystal. Ask for a side photo so we can be sure. But to me it looks Ok based on what we see.
> 
> Now, the important thing: take a look at the hands! What time is it? Before 12 or after? See the issue? Someone installed the hands wrong. This would drive me nuts. An easy fix for a watchmaker but please consider this imperfection before buying.


Noted! I did ask for a movement picture but they haven't responded yet. Good catch with the hands, I did not notice that originally.


----------



## e117

gp20 said:


> Also pay attention to the size of the wrist, it's 35-36 mm max, not portable for someone with a big wrist...


His wrists are not that large, I think it would suit his wrist just fine. Thanks for the size reminder though, I was not thinking about that! I just know he enjoys vintage watches and this style was one I knew he liked so I was excited by finding one available on ebay 😅


----------



## Odessa200

e117 said:


> His wrists are not that large, I think it would suit his wrist just fine. Thanks for the size reminder though, I was not thinking about that! I just know he enjoys vintage watches and this style was one I knew he liked so I was excited by finding one available on ebay 😅


It is a good normal/average size I would say. Fits most.


----------



## e117

@palletwheel @Odessa200 @gp20 what do you guys think of this one? Raketa Copernicus Watch | eBay they say they are too afraid to pop the back off to view the movement lol, probably not watch person (I'd feel the same, honestly!), but they did add side pics at my request at least. To me, the seconds hand looks like it's white and not metal? But the side view looks correct?


----------



## 979greenwich

Second hand is wrong. Also, the description says the watch is non working.


----------



## e117

979greenwich said:


> Second hand is wrong. Also, the description says the watch is non working.


I'm curious if the "not working" might just be that they aren't watch savvy and just aren't winding it correctly.

Is there a list of trusted ebay stores or similar somewhere? I'm also happy to find some other vintage watch to purchase. I may lack the patience to find a true Raketa on my own via random ebay searches 😅. I am also currently looking through a subreddit.


----------



## Odessa200

These models gained in popularity and hard to find. I would assume the watch above is broken. It maybe an easy fix but may be a problem.

also take a look at this. Looks like the wrong crystal but the rest looks good.








Wristwatch RAKETA "COPERNICUS" cal. 2609HP USSR Serviced | eBay


<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Wristwatch RAKETA "COPERNICUS" cal. 2609HP USSR Serviced.</p> <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">Very good condition, the crystal is new. Small abrasions on the crown and scratches at the opening of the back cover.</p> <p...



www.ebay.com





personally I would go for this and have the hands set right.








RAKETA KOPERNIK Copernicus Vintage Mens Mechanical watch Russian Soviet Ussr | eBay


We like your money. We like it a great deal. Condition- light wear. see photos. We are laid back and Straight Forward. We believe purchasing is a two sided coin. The salt of the earth! We want to take your money from you and.



www.ebay.com





or this one 









RAKETA "SOYUZ" Authentic USSR (Serviced,Oiled) | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RAKETA "SOYUZ" Authentic USSR (Serviced,Oiled) at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## e117

Thank you!


----------



## palletwheel

Here's a reasonable looking 3rd generation Komandirskie. I'm trying to find out from the seller if it hacks. I have the translation of the inscription, and for those who can read it its a trip, but no politics here. Comments very much appreciated.


----------



## 979greenwich

Very nice one. Crown sticking a bit out is the only issue I see.


----------



## Odessa200

Looks very nice but I see the dial is rotated counterclockwise… potentially broken dial legs. Or is this just a photo angle?


----------



## jerauf

Is this Raketa legit? I've seen it with a gold case but can't find it with silver.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Is this Raketa legit? I've seen it with a gold case but can't find it with silver.
> 
> View attachment 16804754
> View attachment 16804755


Chrome version exists but this watch has the wrong case. The correct case has back cover with the screw down ring. Dial is authentic but I do not recall if chromed version supposed to have chromed indexes.


----------



## jerauf

Thank you for the help, @Odessa200 ...as always.


----------



## Supdany

Hi Guys, I don’t find information about this Slava with automatic movement 2427. I found many Slava 2427 watches but not with rotating Bezel and diver's look. Is there a catalog to date it? a review?


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> Hi Guys, I don’t find information about this Slava with automatic movement 2427. I found many Slava 2427 watches but not with rotating Bezel and diver's look. Is there a catalog to date it? a review?


here you go. Made in Russia in the 90s


----------



## Supdany

Thanks Odessa 200 you're the Best ;-)


----------



## Chascomm

Supdany said:


> Thanks Odessa 200 you're the Best ;-)


Be warned that the bezel is friction fit and not really rotatable.


----------



## GWhite3

Does the dial on this Big Zero look legit? I honestly haven’t been looking closely at these long enough to tell.


----------



## 979greenwich

I'm not sure about the dial, but the crown is wrong.


----------



## jerauf

I'm wondering if this is legit. I've never seen a stadium with this color of dial.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> I'm wondering if this is legit. I've never seen a stadium with this color of dial.
> 
> View attachment 16813866


I do not think so. The dial has the minute marks and the insert has the minute marks. This gives away that the dial is not from this model.


----------



## jerauf

Thank you, @Odessa200.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

Any opinions on this Copernic? It checks all the boxes I've been looking for (other than the made in russia vs ussr)








Men's Vintage Soviet Mechanical Watch Raketa NOS Cal. 2609NP USSR 1970s for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Men's Vintage Soviet Mechanical Watch Raketa NOS Cal. 2609NP USSR 1970s at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com





This Raketa from the same seller caught my eye. Opinions on this model and if it's legit would be much appreciated. 








Raketa 2628N Star Wars Original Vintage Soviet Wristwatch USSR 19 Jewels for sale online | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Raketa 2628N Star Wars Original Vintage Soviet Wristwatch USSR 19 Jewels at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## palletwheel

Odessa200 said:


> Looks very nice but I see the dial is rotated counterclockwise… potentially broken dial legs. Or is this just a photo angle?


@979greenwich @Odessa200 thanks as always. Spoke to seller, we're seeing about fixing these issues, will keep you posted if he does.


----------



## Odessa200

Snuffalo Bill said:


> Any opinions on this Copernic? It checks all the boxes I've been looking for (other than the made in russia vs ussr)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men's Vintage Soviet Mechanical Watch Raketa NOS Cal. 2609NP USSR 1970s for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Men's Vintage Soviet Mechanical Watch Raketa NOS Cal. 2609NP USSR 1970s at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This Raketa from the same seller caught my eye. Opinions on this model and if it's legit would be much appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raketa 2628N Star Wars Original Vintage Soviet Wristwatch USSR 19 Jewels for sale online | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Raketa 2628N Star Wars Original Vintage Soviet Wristwatch USSR 19 Jewels at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com


1st one legit. 2nd is a bit franken. Wrong hands (all 3) and back cover.


----------



## duende85

Guys, looking for some help here:

Watch number 1:


















































































This one is a bit of a frank? For all of my limited knowledge allow me to say,I think that the case back and the hours and minute hands aren't ok with this watch. What do you think?


Watch number 2:
There's another one that I was looking








:





























































(but I'm more inclined on finding one with the numbers 3,6, 9 and 12 like the first one.


----------



## Odessa200

Welcome. You are correct on the watch 1: hands and back are not from it.

watch 2 has a horrible crystal for this model. It will ruin the watch for you and must be replaced for a low domed crystal so the watch will look slim agin.

also, both watches have quite used crowns. These watches not easy to wind with a a good crown (winding quite stiff) and with these crowns you will need to use a tool. You can buy tools to wind watches, cost a few $. Just warning about the condition of the crowns.


----------



## duende85

Odessa200 said:


> Welcome. You are correct on the watch 1: hands and back are not from it.
> 
> watch 2 has a horrible crystal for this model. It will ruin the watch for you and must be replaced for a low domed crystal so the watch will look slim agin.
> 
> also, both watches have quite used crowns. These watches not easy to wind with a a good crown (winding quite stiff) and with these crowns you will need to use a tool. You can buy tools to wind watches, cost a few $. Just warning about the condition of the crowns.


Thank you,Odessa200

Is it hard to find a good set of hands for the first watch? If it is possible to find a propper or a very similar set for it I'll think about making an offer to the seller.

I'll keep looking anyway.


----------



## Odessa200

duende85 said:


> Thank you,Odessa200
> 
> Is it hard to find a good set of hands for the first watch? If it is possible to find a propper or a very similar set for it I'll think about making an offer to the seller.
> 
> I'll keep looking anyway.


Hard to say. On Russian auction platforms you can buy a lot of various hands but I am not sure this is an option these days (at least not an option for me). So I only consider watches that I already have parts for.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

Odessa200 said:


> 1st one legit. 2nd is a bit franken. Wrong hands (all 3) and back cover.


Thanks Odessa. You're a wealth of knowledge.


----------



## jerauf

Thoughts about this Poljot Stadium? Is it genuine?


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Thoughts about this Poljot Stadium? Is it genuine?
> 
> View attachment 16820522
> View attachment 16820520
> 
> View attachment 16820526
> 
> View attachment 16820521


all 3 hands are wrong as far as I can see. The rest looks right.


----------



## jerauf

Ah, thank you, @Odessa200. A stadium eludes me again.


----------



## palletwheel

This one is really interesting. Had no idea there were automatic 24xx Vostoks from the 70s. Will have to post @mroatman example in our discussion on timelines as clearly the transition away from 22×× was more involved and included automatics! If someone can verify this one would be nice for the collection. Thanks!






Vostok | Watches of the USSR


Explore Soviet Watches: Vostok, Boctok, Восток, Wostok, Amphibia, Amphibian, Precision, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР




mroatman.wixsite.com


----------



## palletwheel

palletwheel said:


> This one is really interesting. Had no idea there were automatic 24xx Vostoks from the 70s. Will have to post @mroatman example in our discussion on timelines as clearly the transition away from 22×× was more involved and included automatics! If someone can verify this one would be nice for the collection. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vostok | Watches of the USSR
> 
> 
> Explore Soviet Watches: Vostok, Boctok, Восток, Wostok, Amphibia, Amphibian, Precision, Watch, Часы, USSR, СССР
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mroatman.wixsite.com


Think I nailed it with this catalog entry. Note first from right center, 655528 (if I'm reading the small print right). If someone could translate the back cover, that would be appreciated.


----------



## Odessa200

Looks legit. The back says: 
shockproof balance 
dust proof 
Autowinding


----------



## Supdany

Hello, I am interested by a back dial Sportivnie. Does it looks original, what do you think?


----------



## Flossyahova

Hey guys, been eyeing this big zero and it seems all fine except the typeface of "made in USSR" and another thing is the tiny USSR pentagon logo that doesn't have "CCCP" curved but flat. Maybe these aren't tells ? But I haven't seen these differrences in other verified big zero watches. No pictures of the movement either but sold with its box and supposed documentation. Thoughts ?


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> Hello, I am interested by a back dial Sportivnie. Does it looks original, what do you think?


looks good to me


----------



## gp20

Legit for me also. Ask a paper's pic... With thé number.


----------



## Odessa200

Flossyahova said:


> Hey guys, been eyeing this big zero and it seems all fine except the typeface of "made in USSR" and another thing is the tiny USSR pentagon logo that doesn't have "CCCP" curved but flat. Maybe these aren't tells ? But I haven't seen these differrences in other verified big zero watches. No pictures of the movement either but sold with its box and supposed documentation. Thoughts ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 16836177
> 
> View attachment 16836283


The text Raketa looks a bit crooked to me. But I am not sure. Possibly fake dial.


----------



## 979greenwich

Dial looks fake to me.
The papers are probably photocopied and sold 50 times before.


----------



## Flossyahova

979greenwich said:


> Dial looks fake to me.
> The papers are probably photocopied and sold 50 times before.


Hey Greenwich, thanks for the reply. What looks fake to you ? So that I can be on the lookout for my next searches


----------



## 979greenwich

Flossyahova said:


> Hey Greenwich, thanks for the reply. What looks fake to you ? So that I can be on the lookout for my next searches


See this thread:








Authentic Big Zero on Etsy?


I’ve been doing lots of research on Raketa Big Zeros. I knew I wanted the right hands, font shape, flat crystal, cyrillic word mark, and the quality stamp. I found a seller on Etsy who’s claiming to have “NOS”. Good ratings and responsive, saying they had a stock of 50 with 2 left. Suspect, but...




www.watchuseek.com




Basically, the font is too sharp and thin, USSR is typed straight, L is written differently.


----------



## Flossyahova

Just stumbled upon this one, something I haven't seen before is the edge of the movement looked bevelled out, and missing SU stamp. Thoughts ?


----------



## Odessa200

Flossyahova said:


> Just stumbled upon this one, something I haven't seen before is the edge of the movement looked bevelled out, and missing SU stamp. Thoughts ?
> View attachment 16838147
> View attachment 16838149


older movement placed in a newer watch.


----------



## slashdotdash

Hello everyone! I've fallen down a Copernicus rabbit hole and I'd love some input on these two listings. They both seem ok-ish to my untrained eye, but that's about it. What do you think?

Listing #1:









Listing #2:


----------



## 979greenwich

You have done well. If you continue to do so, your collecting future will be as bright as the star of the Soviet Union.


----------



## Odessa200

slashdotdash said:


> Hello everyone! I've fallen down a Copernicus rabbit hole and I'd love some input on these two listings. They both seem ok-ish to my untrained eye, but that's about it. What do you think?
> 
> Listing #1:
> View attachment 16839109
> 
> 
> Listing #2:
> View attachment 16839110


👍


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

slashdotdash said:


> Hello everyone! I've fallen down a Copernicus rabbit hole and I'd love some input on these two listings. They both seem ok-ish to my untrained eye, but that's about it. What do you think?
> 
> Listing #1:
> View attachment 16839109
> 
> 
> Listing #2:
> View attachment 16839110


I have infinitely less experience than those who already responded so I could certainly be wrong, but aren't the hands aligned incorrectly on listing #1? The hour hand shows 9:00 but the minute hand is at 25.


----------



## 979greenwich

You're right. I was looking for usual franken signs and overlooked the obvious


----------



## slashdotdash

Thank you @979greenwich and @Odessa200 for the encouraging comments (I do hope my collecting future will be bright!), and thank you @Snuffalo Bill for mentioning the hand alignment, I would never have noticed it. Is that a red flag, or something that could be fixed in the hands of an expert?


----------



## Odessa200

slashdotdash said:


> Thank you @979greenwich and @Odessa200 for the encouraging comments (I do hope my collecting future will be bright!), and thank you @Snuffalo Bill for mentioning the hand alignment, I would never have noticed it. Is that a red flag, or something that could be fixed in the hands of an expert?


It is for sure can be fixed by a watchmaker. You need to take off the seconds and minutes hand and put it back correctly. I would write to the seller and ask him to repair watch and let you know when done.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

I don't know too much about these Sputniks so I apologize if this is a clear franken. What's the verdict and, if it is real, what's a fair price on these?


----------



## Odessa200

It appears to be fully authentic watch. Correct movement from the correct year. All is right. 
as far as price: I would apprise you to be 125$.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

Odessa200 said:


> It appears to be fully authentic watch. Correct movement from the correct year. All is right.
> as far as price: I would apprise you to be 125$.


Thanks as always Odessa


----------



## gp20

Hello guys, what do you think about this Pobeda ? Thanks in advance !


----------



## Odessa200

I think it is a fully authentic creation of the early 90s.


----------



## gp20

Thanks a lot again Odessa !


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

Thoughts on this Goroda? it seems to have the right specs but the condition seems quite good and I know these often have outright fake parts. Thanks all.


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks good to me.


----------



## Flossyahova

Thoughts on this CBET Raketa ? Haven't seen any like those yet


----------



## Odessa200

Flossyahova said:


> Thoughts on this CBET Raketa ? Haven't seen any like those yet
> View attachment 16848916
> View attachment 16848917
> View attachment 16848914


Looks good to me.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

979greenwich said:


> Looks good to me.


Thank you very much!


----------



## Flossyahova

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me.


Thanks as always Odessa


----------



## Flossyahova

I am eyeing this raketa and after looking at Mr. Dashiell's collection and some old catalogues I can't seem to find this model, do you guys recognise it ? Is it a fake franken ?


----------



## AaParker

Flossyahova said:


> I am eyeing this raketa and after looking at Mr. Dashiell's collection and some old catalogues I can't seem to find this model, do you guys recognise it ? Is it a fake franken ?
> View attachment 16850475
> 
> View attachment 16850476


We can wait for the experts to chime in, but I will tell you that not all examples are catalogued. In this case, barring finding a catalogued example, you would want the watch to be consistent, (i.e., case, dial numeral design, crown, hands) with catalogued examples, and I think it is:  Experts will know for sure!





__





Retro catalogue – Ракета (World)







raketa.com


----------



## Ligavesh

Did they ever make this model in a chromed case or is it a clear franken:










?


----------



## Flossyahova

Looks like model 81323X, haven't seen a silver case before on this model. Not an expert but the crown looks differrent and the hands seem to have been replaced. I could be wrong. I've taken info from Mroatman's collection, here is one of his model.


----------



## jerauf

Is this genuine? I've never seen it before.


----------



## Ligavesh

Flossyahova said:


> Looks like model 81323X, haven't seen a silver case before on this model. Not an expert but the crown looks differrent and the hands seem to have been replaced. I could be wrong. I've taken info from Mroatman's collection, here is one of his model.
> View attachment 16855902


Yeah I have the gilded one

here it says 'cases gilded _and _chromed' but does it mean for this model as well?










Crown obviously not correct.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Is this genuine? I've never seen it before.
> View attachment 16855954
> View attachment 16855953


Look real to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> Yeah I have the gilded one
> 
> here it says 'cases gilded _and _chromed' but does it mean for this model as well?
> 
> View attachment 16855979
> 
> 
> Crown obviously not correct.


possible but I have never seen chrome versions.


----------



## jerauf

Odessa200 said:


> Look real to me.


Thank you!


----------



## gp20

jerauf said:


> Is this genuine? I've never seen it before.
> View attachment 16855954
> View attachment 16855953


How much is it ? Where did you find it ? The watch is ok.


----------



## jerauf

@gp20 - Found it on Etsy. It's $260.

I think I'm going to forego it because it says "made in Russia". The watch is beautiful. I'm fine wearing a watch that says that it's made in USSR, since it's a country that no longer exists. But given the climate in the world, wearing "Russia" emblazoned on my wrist may cause some social discomfort.


----------



## Ligavesh

jerauf said:


> @gp20 - Found it on Etsy. It's $260.
> 
> I think I'm going to forego it because it says "made in Russia". The watch is beautiful. I'm fine wearing a watch that says that it's made in USSR, since it's a country that no longer exists. But given the climate in the world, wearing "Russia" emblazoned on my wrist may cause some social discomfort.


That's why I love wearing stuff made in the USA.


----------



## jerauf

Ligavesh said:


> That's why I love wearing stuff made in the USA.


Not sure what you're saying here. But okay.


----------



## WDE36804

This thread is like an online museum of the strange and compelling


----------



## steros

Could this case and movement belong to a Pobeda 34-K? The caseback looks weird to me, maybe a replacement?


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> Could this case and movement belong to a Pobeda 34-K? The caseback looks weird to me, maybe a replacement?
> View attachment 16862885
> View attachment 16862886
> 
> View attachment 16862887


Movement: yes. Back cover: no. It should be a clear one.


----------



## steros

Odessa200 said:


> Movement: yes. Back cover: no. It should be a clear one.


The caseback looks like the one on my Sportivnie, I think it’s the same text although I ca’t read it:









A question; did they use the same case for Pobeda K-34 and Sportivnie?


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> The caseback looks like the one on my Sportivnie, I think it’s the same text although I ca’t read it:
> View attachment 16864671
> 
> 
> A question; did they use the same case for Pobeda K-34 and Sportivnie?


no, they did not. The covers are different not only by the missing text. Here is the correct one for k34. Compare the location of the opening notches.


----------



## steros

steros said:


> The caseback looks like the one on my Sportivnie, I think it’s the same text although I ca’t read it:
> View attachment 16864671
> 
> 
> A question; did they use the same case for Pobeda K-34 and Sportivnie?


…wich reminds me that I have a question about my Sportivnie. Was there a version of this black Sportivnie with these thin gold hands? Or did they all have the broader hands with green lume originally?


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> …wich reminds me that I have a question about my Sportivnie. Was there a version of this black Sportivnie with these thin gold hands? Or did they all have the broader hands with green lume originally?
> View attachment 16864836


As far as I see, all 3 hands are wrong. Hour and minute hands are of different style and seconds hand is too short (from Moscow watch). There are a few silly Vostok models from 90s where they just released anything that they could that have lume dial and not lumed hamds. But such watch is only useful if at night you forget how many hours in a day. Then you can look at your watch and count dots


----------



## AaParker

Hello, 

Less of an "is it a Franken" and more of a what exactly is it? Seller described it as a Mayak- Rocket from 1960s from PChZ. Cyrillic and Latin on the dial is odd, but it is a Mayak case I believe. No movement picture. I'm curious what your thoughts are. I've not seen anything exactly like it before. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I am grateful in advance for any thoughts you may have.


----------



## Chascomm

AaParker said:


> Hello,
> 
> Less of an "is it a Franken" and more of a what exactly is it? Seller described it as a Mayak- Rocket from 1960s from PChZ. Cyrillic and Latin on the dial is odd, but it is a Mayak case I believe. No movement picture. I'm curious what your thoughts are. I've not seen anything exactly like it before. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I am grateful in advance for any thoughts you may have.
> View attachment 16875198


The applied branding appears to be Latin alphabet, incomplete and glued on backwards.

‘Franken’ seems like a good description.


----------



## steros

Odessa200 said:


> As far as I see, all 3 hands are wrong. Hour and minute hands are of different style and seconds hand is too short (from Moscow watch). There are a few silly Vostok models from 90s where they just released anything that they could that have lume dial and not lumed hamds. But such watch is only useful if at night you forget how many hours in a day. Then you can look at your watch and count dots


Thank you, makes sense!


----------



## AaParker

Chascomm said:


> The applied branding appears to be Latin alphabet, incomplete and glued on backwards.
> 
> ‘Franken’ seems like a good description.


Thank you!


----------



## Ligavesh

Is this a Raketa inside of a perfectly fine Poljot case?


----------



## gp20

Hello guys, what do you think about this Amphibia ? I think,it is ok...


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks good, but I would expect the movement to be stamped 2409A SU.


----------



## palletwheel

979greenwich said:


> Looks good, but I would expect the movement to be stamped 2409A SU.


There was a point in the late 80s when the movements in Komandirskies stopped getting stamped. I don't know Amphibias, but given the relationship to Vostok wouldn't Amphibias stop being stamped at some similar point too?


----------



## gp20

Hello guys, do you know this watch? Is it a real watch or a franken ? I can't find it anywhere, except on ebay...


----------



## 979greenwich

No, but it looks like a fantasy dial.


----------



## Chascomm

gp20 said:


> Hello guys, do you know this watch? Is it a real watch or a franken ? I can't find it anywhere, except on ebay...
> View attachment 16897660


There's a little bit of something for everybody in that one. Probably started as a Soviet-era Pobeda (or probably two; one for the case and another for the movement and hands), but has been 'improved' with a new dial paying homage to the classic Raketa Big Zero and the recent Vostok Pripyat.


----------



## gp20

Ok thanks a lot for these answers.


----------



## steros

Saw this peculiar Luch for sale. Anyone knows something about this model?


----------



## Odessa200

steros said:


> Saw this peculiar Luch for sale. Anyone knows something about this model?
> View attachment 16914587


Lovely Luch. Sorry I cannot help more. I am quite certain it is legit. Probably late 80s.


----------



## garpie

Hi guys! I bought this one yesterday. Seller says dial, hands, movement & case are original. The crystal seems new, which, btw, I don't care and even appreciate. It seems legit to me, but as I'm not an expert I'm glad to receive your opinions. Thanks!


----------



## Odessa200

You did well! It all a nice specimen. I only see a replace retched wheel (the font Pobeda on 1mchz is slightly different, this one is from ChChZ). Also I cannot see the if the balance is by 1MChZ (need the photo where the balance is not spinning). But overall, great buy.


----------



## jerauf

Wondering if this little guy is legit. I don't remember seeing this color face before.


----------



## Odessa200

jerauf said:


> Wondering if this little guy is legit. I don't remember seeing this color face before.
> 
> View attachment 16922564
> View attachment 16922562
> View attachment 16922563


Looks completely legit. I do not see the caliber stamp on the central bridge. Maybe it is there and it is just the photo but it is still looks legit either way.


----------



## jerauf

Thank you!


----------



## carpushorologium

I found a russian Buran watch at flea market and I am wondering if it is authentic or not? I did some previous research, however there is not a lot of information out there (and sometimes conflicting)

This is what I could find out:

Russian Buran watch with 3133 movement
Based on research maybe from 90s?

The bezzel does not move (which apparently could be per design depending on model), however there is very faint red mark on the bezzel at about 7 o´clock which seems odd...
The case in general seems fairly cheap. This is what got me wondering in the first place.

However, the backcover is made of glass which reveals the movement.
The numbers on the movement are:

3133
52497 (this suggests it is a later production, hence 1990s?)
23 КАМНЯ (which I guess means Jewels)

If anyone has any more knowledge, especially regarding authenticity, the bezzel, value (aka worth fixing) or anything really, I would be very grateful!


----------



## 979greenwich

Juri Levenberg's Poljot Buran 3133, probably from the '90s. Nice one. Worth around 250 $ if working. Repair expensive 









Buran Chronograph


Movement: Caliber Poljo 3133 Case: stainless steel polished Dial: black Diameter: 38 mm Height: 13 mm




www.poljot24.de


----------



## steros

Is this Vostok 2416b movement from the ussr era with some newer replacement parts, or is it later entirely (1990’s?) or is it likely from the ”transitional” period when things were put together of mixed parts? I think I identify the date wheel as ussr era, from the font of the numbers. And parts of the movement is obviously later (”RUS”), but I don’t know how to date other parts of this movement.
Is the caseback, without serial number, definately later? I can add that the dial of this watch is marked ”cccp”.


----------



## Ligavesh

What do you think aboit this Slava Medical:


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What do you think aboit this Slava Medical:
> 
> View attachment 16927931
> 
> View attachment 16927929
> 
> View attachment 16927930


I admire their desire to make money but I despise the fact how fakes are advertised as real. Fake dial!


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Is this Vostok 2416b movement from the ussr era with some newer replacement parts, or is it later entirely (1990’s?) or is it likely from the ”transitional” period when things were put together of mixed parts? I think I identify the date wheel as ussr era, from the font of the numbers. And parts of the movement is obviously later (”RUS”), but I don’t know how to date other parts of this movement.
> Is the caseback, without serial number, definately later? I can add that the dial of this watch is marked ”cccp”.
> View attachment 16927743
> 
> View attachment 16927745
> 
> View attachment 16927749


Yes the font on the calendar ring is for sure Soviet but still used until at least 1994, as for the caseback Vostok stopped putting serial numbers on their Amphibia casebacks at the end of 1992...so it could still be correct for a watch made in 1993 or later but of course if the dial is marked "anti-magnetic" there must be a shield stuck inside the back.

The 2416b movement hasn't changed much since the end of the Soviet era so you would need to take it apart to see if the dial side balance jewel holder is removable (two tiny screws) and if the calendar cam spring has a stud that fits into a hole on the mainplate etc. if it has these features it's at least from the Soviet era or 1990's.

A couple of other thoughts...the anti-shock springs were golden until at least 1995 and the crown is Komandirskie (but I guess you know that  )...


----------



## Ligavesh

Odessa200 said:


> I admire their desire to make money but I despise the fact how fakes are advertised as real. Fake dial!


What can you tell by, out of interest?


----------



## Odessa200

Ligavesh said:


> What can you tell by, out of interest?


The outer part of the dial: it appears to me that some circles are not aligned with the center of the numbers compared to legit copy


















The inner dial: look at the text. The letters are ‘dancing’.

















Then look at the uneven space between the arrow and the marker (top vs bottom). On real dial all is crisp and even.


















Then hands are slightly differen.…


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> Yes the font on the calendar ring is for sure Soviet but still used until at least 1994, as for the caseback Vostok stopped putting serial numbers on their Amphibia casebacks at the end of 1992...so it could still be correct for a watch made in 1993 or later but of course if the dial is marked "anti-magnetic" there must be a shield stuck inside the back.
> 
> The 2416b movement hasn't changed much since the end of the Soviet era so you would need to take it apart to see if the dial side balance jewel holder is removable (two tiny screws) and if the calendar cam spring has a stud that fits into a hole on the mainplate etc. if it has these features it's at least from the Soviet era or 1990's.
> 
> A couple of other thoughts...the anti-shock springs were golden until at least 1995 and the crown is Komandirskie (but I guess you know that  )...


A lot of useful information, thank you!


----------



## RaymondVDK

hello forum what are your thoughts about the Kama in the topleft? Someone shared doubts about the hands. Feedback on the others is also appreciated of course


----------



## Odessa200

RaymondVDK said:


> hello forum what are your thoughts about the Kama in the topleft? Someone shared doubts about the hands. Feedback on the others is also appreciated of course
> 
> View attachment 16934382


I think the hands are wrong.


----------



## RaymondVDK

Odessa200 said:


> I think the hands are wrong.


Thanks for confirming! Any notes on the other watches btw?


----------



## Odessa200

RaymondVDK said:


> Thanks for confirming! Any notes on the other watches btw?


Poljot alarm also has wrong hands I think


----------



## gp20

goroda wrong crown, i think.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Hello Friends. After some time away, I've become interested in this Poljot Kirovskie 2409. I'm told this is a stainless steel watch. What are your thoughts? I'm wondering why one bridge is brushed while the others are not. Is there anything else out of line?

Thanks again
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hello Friends. After some time away, I've become interested in this Poljot Kirovskie 2409. I'm told this is a stainless steel watch. What are your thoughts? I'm wondering why one bridge is brushed while the others are not. Is there anything else out of line?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


The watch is fine but the crown looks replaced with a chromed one. Please add more photos sowing the crown and the back. The case is stainless steel. All bridges have same brushed finish, it is just a photo I think.


----------



## Tianlung4028

Odessa200 said:


> The watch is fine but the crown looks replaced with a chromed one. Please add more photos sowing the crown and the back. The case is stainless steel. All bridges have same brushed finish, it is just a photo I think.


Hi Odessa!

Here are some more photos. Let me know if you need more.

Thanks again
















Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Odessa200

Tianlung4028 said:


> Hi Odessa!
> 
> Here are some more photos. Let me know if you need more.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Back is fine. But the crown shows the yellow bold spots (lost chrome and brass is showing through). A bit of an issue given finding a correct crown will be hard (but maybe a watchmaker can find a similar steel crown). This is how correct crown should look._















_


----------



## gp20

Hello everybody, what do you think about this model, i never seen before... Thanks in advance !


----------



## Odessa200

Never seen this before. The watch itself is a typical Russian Slava. No issues. The only question is the Buran image. Placement seems to be a bit off. Maybe was added by someone. Maybe was done this way at the factory. The text 21 Jewels is almost gone but Buran is like new… a bit strange but possible.


----------



## RedFroggy

Privet,
I see 3 issues with this Poljot .

a wrong seconds hand,
a wrong case & therefore crown,


















- a replacement glass,


















Do you guys know which watch the case was originally made for ?

Also do you have a photo of the case I should aim to find to re-house the watch & restore it to a more original condition .
Is this one the correct one ?








(That dial, for some reason, seems to be widely faked, however that watch appears ok, well at least the dial) 

Many thanks for your help


----------



## Odessa200

You are correct. This is catalog. About your case: I think it was for one of the ‘regular’ manual Poljots. I am not aware of any model with autowinding that were not gilded. Hence I think it is for a regular manual watch with the back cover from automatic.


----------



## RedFroggy

Thanks VM for sharing your expertise Odessa & of course the copy of the catalogue. The only legit "de luxe" models not in gilded cases I am aware of are some rare AllSteel Mdls, but no chromed cases indeed. 
.


----------



## gp20

New research, new doubt... 
What do you think about this old Chistopol ? Thanks in advance


----------



## Odessa200

I think it is legit and authentic except the crown. Minor issue if you ask me. Crystal also looks modern (a bit to square) but not horrible.

CORRECTION: looks like I made a mistake. This is a new dial!


----------



## gp20

And the space between the 1st word and B CCCP, it seems bigger than the original watch ?


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> And the space between the 1st word and B CCCP, it seems bigger than the original watch ?


Oyyyy! I think you are right. This is a new dial that was ‘aged’! Look at the fist letter in Sputnick!


----------



## duodeviginti

Thoughts on this Slava Medical?


----------



## jerauf

Thoughts about either of these Big Zeros? Not sure if they made a black one with this case.

1.









2.


----------



## gp20

For me, the first one is ok. For the 2nd, i would say wrong crown


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> For me, the first one is ok. For the 2nd, i would say wrong crown


And wrong hands on the 2nd.

never saw legit black dials. But maybe…


----------



## jerauf

The only legit black dial I've seen is in the newer case in the 1991 catalog. But I'm not sure if they ever released a black one with the 80s case.


----------



## gp20

Any specialist of rising sun ? 
I have a doubt about the dial, I know that the seconds hand can exist in red, but the dial without any inscription? 
The papers are fake too... 
No photo of the movement.


----------



## 979greenwich

I say fake. These are mine:


----------



## gp20

The second hand is not the problem, this model exists , i saw a Vostok catalog.


----------



## Odessa200

Agree fake. Here is real for comparison.


----------



## Avidfan

gp20 said:


> Any specialist of rising sun ?
> I have a doubt about the dial, I know that the seconds hand can exist in red, but the dial without any inscription?
> The papers are fake too...
> No photo of the movement.
> View attachment 16954344
> View attachment 16954345


This is a post-Soviet rising star so there's no point in comparing it with Soviet examples IMHO as post-Soviet examples might not follow the Soviet model.

The only question here for me is did Vostok put this dial in this case, as all the parts look to be of Chistopol manufacture. 

Vostok did occasionally put this dial in a chrome Type 33 case with crown @ 2 and with a titanium nitride (golden) bezel in Soviet times...now after the end of the SU did they put the new 270 dial with no country of origin in the new Type 33 case with crown @ 3 ? 

The answer is that they might of done...but I would expect the case to be chrome with a golden bezel, but then again post-Soviet production might not have followed the same pattern as Soviet production.


----------



## 979greenwich

One swallow doesn't make a summer, especially if the whole watch is titanium-nitride coated and the papers are fake.


----------



## yerts

I know this is basic, but I'm looking at some Raketa Big Zeroes as a first piece. I've read a few guides on how to spot a frankenwatch. These three look OK to me, but I'm wondering what you all think!









Vintage 1970s Raketa TV USSR Soviet Mechanical 2609.HA Men's watch | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage 1970s Raketa TV USSR Soviet Mechanical 2609.HA Men's watch at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.ca













0️⃣Rare Raketa Big Zero Vintage Soviet Mens Watch 2609 WRISTWATCH USSR... | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 0️⃣Rare Raketa Big Zero Vintage Soviet Mens Watch 2609 WRISTWATCH USSR... at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.ca













Raketa atom 2609A 21 jewel Silver dial 35mm USSR Soviet 60s ! Not-working!!!! | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Raketa atom 2609A 21 jewel Silver dial 35mm USSR Soviet 60s ! Not-working!!!! at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.ca













USSR Rare Mechanical Wrist Watch Raketa Big Zero Cal.2609.NA 19 Jewels | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for USSR Rare Mechanical Wrist Watch Raketa Big Zero Cal.2609.NA 19 Jewels at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.ca


----------



## Odessa200

1st one: looks right but the quality of the photos does not allow to properly assess the dial.

2nd is fake dial

3rd one has ‘wrong’ movement. Right caliber but the movement is much older than the watch. Same about the dial: hard to tell.

4th one has wrong balance (from an older movement).

I hope this helps.


----------



## yerts

Odessa200 said:


> 1st one: looks right but the quality of the photos does not allow to properly assess the dial.
> 
> 2nd is fake dial
> 
> 3rd one has ‘wrong’ movement. Right caliber but the movement is much older than the watch. Same about the dial: hard to tell.
> 
> 4th one has wrong balance (from an older movement).
> 
> I hope this helps.


Wow, thanks! I guess I have more learning and research to do. If you have time, any quick tips on what about the dial/movement/etc. that caught your eye?


----------



## Odessa200

yerts said:


> Wow, thanks! I guess I have more learning and research to do. If you have time, any quick tips on what about the dial/movement/etc. that caught your eye?


Sure. Fake dial: look at the text Raketa. You can buy them here (at least you could before sunctions): Белый циферблат «Ракета» с большими цифрами

Old movement: it has beveled bridges. Zero is a Perestroika watch and by that time beveled bridges were no longer used for many years because flat bridges worked better for the watch assembly machines (that replaced manual assembly).

Wrong balance bridge: again, it is beveled while the rest of the movement is not. Any decent watchmaker has both bridge types. So the only conclusion is that the watch was put together by an amateur or by a sloppy watchmaker. Both cases do not promise anything good.

Seller 4 also has this ‘beauty’ for sale:Raketa Big Zero mechanical wristwatch Caliber raketa 2609.HA white dial | eBay

at least he is honest enough to say ‘dial and hands are new’.


----------



## gp20

For me on big zeros, you also have to look at whether the indexes and numbers shine in the light, they have a particular texture that reflects the light differently. It's also difficult to show in a photo. I've put a photo where you can see this particularity, almost impossible to copy.


----------



## gp20

Hello everyone, i found two versions of this Boctok's logo. One of them seems to be fake for the same watch (there are also some minor changes between them, 17 jewels....) ... Any idea ?


----------



## Odessa200

I think both legit. Just different designs.


----------



## Chascomm

gp20 said:


> Hello everyone, i found two versions of this Boctok's logo. One of them seems to be fake for the same watch (there are also some minor changes between them, 17 jewels....) ... Any idea ?
> 
> View attachment 16964698
> 
> View attachment 16964696


The first one is earlier. The second is after Chistopol watch factory had settled on Vostok as their single brand and started to develop that identity.


----------



## palletwheel

Is this Pobeda with a marble dial for real or is this the most elaborate Pobeda Franken ever made?


----------



## Chascomm

palletwheel said:


> Is this Pobeda with a marble dial for real or is this the most elaborate Pobeda Franken ever made?


‘Marble’ or dirty?


----------



## palletwheel

Chascomm said:


> ‘Marble’ or dirty?


Listed as "Marble". As in the stone, not effect. Could be dirty marble though 😆


----------



## Odessa200

I think it is just pain discoloration caused by gasoline or some other cleaning liquid. Not a stone. But if stone indeed then it is pretty cool.


----------



## krashche

Down the rabbit hole I go! Trying to develop my eye for spotting de luxe frankens. This one isn’t so obvious that I can spot issues, and I’d be curious for more expert opinions.

Something feels fishy with the movement, but maybe its just me.


----------



## Odessa200

krashche said:


> Down the rabbit hole I go! Trying to develop my eye for spotting de luxe frankens. This one isn’t so obvious that I can spot issues, and I’d be curious for more expert opinions.
> 
> Something feels fishy with the movement, but maybe its just me.
> View attachment 16976302
> 
> View attachment 16976303


Dial is fine. Hands: not sure, look a bit wrong to me. But the main issue is the case and the movement: both are from a Luch watch, not Poljot. 
I hope this helps.


----------



## gp20

Hello, do you have some doubt about this Copernic ? Everything seems ok in my opinion...


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Hello, do you have some doubt about this Copernic ? Everything seems ok in my opinion...
> 
> View attachment 16987054
> View attachment 16987055
> View attachment 16987056


replaced balance bridge but the rest seems OK


----------



## AaParker

Hello,

Just curious, does this look "assembled" from different types of alarm watch styles to you? The case looks Signal and the alarm indicator looks Signal again. Was there a Poljot with the squiggly alarm indicator? I like it, but I'm not at all certain it came out of the Poljot factory that way, or maybe just a really early example as the factory "transitioned" away from the Signal brand to the standard Poljot brand? Except that the dial is 1970s so?  I can't seem to find a reference to it in the catalogs either. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you may have.

Thank you.


----------



## Odessa200

I agree with your doubts.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I agree with your doubts.
> View attachment 16993867
> 
> View attachment 16993866


Thank you very much @Odessa200! I appreciate it.  .


----------



## AaParker

I also came across this, and I really have no idea what to make of it. I thought I would post it here out of interest in case anybody knows anything about it. I'm thinking maybe special order or tourist watch?


----------



## Ligavesh

Could be some special issue Raketa.


----------



## cliffjnr

hi ive bought this raketa from ebay coming from ukraine. ive seen this design a few times and always liked it. does it seem to be authentic? i paid 30 quid. have the numbers been repainted etc? i kinda think they have


----------



## Odessa200

All looks right except the Seconds hand: white on white is not that good. In the catalog it says ‘red’. Easy fix (with a nail polish )


----------



## 979greenwich

This is one of the few models that used the case same as the more desirable Big 0, and is often used as a base to make and sell a fake Big 0. It should have a red second hand, the rest looks good.


----------



## cliffjnr

thanks guys. howve i ended up with a white second hand lol


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Hello comrades,

Seeking your advice on this Molnija:


----------



## BerutoSenpai

cliffjnr said:


> thanks guys. howve i ended up with a white second hand lol


Seconds hand is not original, or repainted. Movement looks bare, or might I say too bare. Maybe that’s just how they really were made.


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Thanks *BerutoSenpai. *

Anybody else with comments or remarks from wich this watch lover (but no expert) can learn?


----------



## cgrad

BerutoSenpai said:


> Movement looks bare, or might I say too bare. Maybe that’s just how they really were made.


Looks pretty normal to me for a later version of the 3602 movement. There is a good overview of the different versions on Ranfft Watches.

This movement has a setting-lever screw (to hold the crown) instead of a pin, which would point to 1975-1984, while the "Made in Russia" on the dial means 1990ies or later. So either they still had old movements lying around or movement and/or dial were replaced/repainted.


----------



## cgrad

Here is a 1995 Molnija with exactly the same dial and the same seconds hand:
Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches
The movement is a newer version with a setting-lever pin.


----------



## Odessa200

Agree with @cgrad there is nothing wrong with this watch


----------



## EnjoyWatches

cgrad said:


> Looks pretty normal to me for a later version of the 3602 movement. There is a good overview of the different versions on Ranfft Watches.
> 
> This movement has a setting-lever screw (to hold the crown) instead of a pin, which would point to 1975-1984, while the "Made in Russia" on the dial means 1990ies or later. So either they still had old movements lying around or movement and/or dial were replaced/repainted.


Thanks for your information: very nice to know!


----------



## EnjoyWatches

cgrad said:


> Here is a 1995 Molnija with exactly the same dial and the same seconds hand:
> Pocket Watch Database: Information and Serial Numbers for American Pocket Watches
> The movement is a newer version with a setting-lever pin.


Good to know this site exists!


----------



## EnjoyWatches

Odessa200 said:


> Agree with @cgrad there is nothing wrong with this watch


Coming from you added with the earlier comments the verdict of this forum is clear . Thank you sir!


----------



## Yugnut

Hey everyone!
This will be my first post here as I've just joined the forum after some light lurking (maybe a week at most). My hopes are that this is the right place to ask my question but if not I apologize in advance.
I'm quite new to the world of watches as a whole so further apologies are needed for incorrect terminology or useless information, I will do my best to keep up and learn as I go!

So with that out of the way I'm looking at a Raketa using the 2609.HA movement with what appears to be a model number of 213400 (not sure, this number is stamped on the back of the watch). So far I've tried to comb through catalogs I could find and browse the "Watches of the USSR" website hoping to find a visually similar match with no such luck yet (could be using wrong catalogs or just not looking hard enough). So I guess my question is quite simple, in your best judgement/ opinion do you think this watch is an authentic soviet made piece and is there any good way to estimate a time of construction if it is a genuine soviet piece?

Thank you so much for your time and please don't hesitate to point out if I'm doing something stupid as that's the only way to learn!


----------



## 979greenwich

I think it's this one from the '85 catalogue:

Something similar in the '91 catalogue:

Looks fine to me.


----------



## Odessa200

Agree with @979greenwich : legit watch. 
the number on the back is not the model number, it is the serial number of the watch. Cheers!


----------



## Simon

Would appreciate the input on this Amfibia that I'm buying (being serviced now)
My current one is the champagne coloured dial 350 wostok/amphibian
- this new one is slightly different in seize (couple of mils wider)
has a longer flatter area by the crown - and has unusual spelling AMFIBIA on back
any comments appreciated


----------



## 979greenwich

Maybe it's one if those new fake cases?








Franken of the week...


Someone once said there are no fake NVCH-30 casebacks out there. Well, it was a matter of time...




www.watchuseek.com




Does the case look mint?


----------



## Chascomm

979greenwich said:


> Maybe it's one if those new fake cases?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Franken of the week...
> 
> 
> Someone once said there are no fake NVCH-30 casebacks out there. Well, it was a matter of time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the case look mint?


Until now, all fake cases with Bagobloc back seem on this forum have a cast ring whereas this one has a machined ring. At least one of the members here has confirmed that the fake parts do not interchange with genuine watches. How about the stub where the lug attaches; is that the same or different dimensions?


----------



## Yugnut

979greenwich said:


> I think it's this one from the '85 catalogue:
> 
> Something similar in the '91 catalogue:
> 
> Looks fine to me.


Yep that appears to be a dead ringer, thanks for the keen eye!


----------



## Yugnut

Odessa200 said:


> Agree with @979greenwich : legit watch.
> the number on the back is not the model number, it is the serial number of the watch. Cheers!


Oh okay, thanks for the info! Should expedite searches in the future where I'm not trying to match the case stamping with some sort of model. Many thanks!


----------



## RaymondVDK

*hello friends just got this one offered, any thoughts? Asking price is €160































*


----------



## gp20

I don't know if the watch is ok, but price is correct. In Russia, you can't find it at < 10 000 rub. 

What about this one ? The seller says that's a Kirovskie sports Mchz.


----------



## Odessa200

RaymondVDK said:


> *hello friends just got this one offered, any thoughts? Asking price is €160
> View attachment 17029791
> 
> View attachment 17029790
> 
> View attachment 17029789
> 
> View attachment 17029788
> *


Looks good to me and fhe price is very good!


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> I don't know if the watch is ok, but price is correct. In Russia, you can't find it at < 10 000 rub.
> 
> What about this one ? The seller says that's a Kirovskie sports Mchz.
> View attachment 17029797
> 
> 
> View attachment 17029798
> 
> 
> View attachment 17029799


It is a Sportive with an Artel dial. Ask the seller if the stop second works before deciding


----------



## gp20

Ok thanks, stop second is working. The watch wasn't sold, no ? So it's a franken


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Ok thanks, stop second is working. The watch wasn't sold, no ? So it's a franken


yes and no. Artels were a legal form of a small shops that were fixing small things (shoes, watches, sewing machines, etc). In case of watches: they printed their own dials (frequently more interesting than what was made by the watch factory). This dial was printed in the 60s by a legal soviet organization. It is up to you to decide if this is a franken watch or not.
My opinion: it is a perfectly legit watch that can have a place in a collection.


----------



## gp20

Thanks !


----------



## NakhodkaKorabl

Purchasing my first vintage. I introduced myself to the brand with a 2021 Vostok SE 710AN2. I want to get a vintage piece now and found this Komandirskie and was seeking help in validating that it looks original. The seller claims that everything they sell is original and serviced by a watchmaker in Ukraine. Here are some images.


































Thank you all in advance. I did some digging with my limited knowledge and the closest I can find to this was in a 1990 catalog where the bezel is different. What I can't tell from this photo is if the 1990 catalog watch was also 3aka3. The seller noted that the watch is an 80s production so I'm curious to hear from you all.


----------



## Chascomm

NakhodkaKorabl said:


> Purchasing my first vintage. I introduced myself to the brand with a 2021 Vostok SE 710AN2. I want to get a vintage piece now and found this Komandirskie and was seeking help in validating that it looks original. The seller claims that everything they sell is original and serviced by a watchmaker in Ukraine. Here are some images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all in advance. I did some digging with my limited knowledge and the closest I can find to this was in a 1990 catalog where the bezel is different. What I can't tell from this photo is if the 1990 catalog watch was also 3aka3. The seller noted that the watch is an 80s production so I'm curious to hear from you all.
> 
> View attachment 17032932


That catalogue image looks like it is marked Zakaz MO SSSR.

I think the 10-20-30-40-50 bezel is a correct option for the Komandirskie of this era, as replicated by the famous Moscow McDonalds watch.


----------



## Avidfan

NakhodkaKorabl said:


> Purchasing my first vintage. I introduced myself to the brand with a 2021 Vostok SE 710AN2. I want to get a vintage piece now and found this Komandirskie and was seeking help in validating that it looks original. The seller claims that everything they sell is original and serviced by a watchmaker in Ukraine. Here are some images.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you all in advance. I did some digging with my limited knowledge and the closest I can find to this was in a 1990 catalog where the bezel is different. What I can't tell from this photo is if the 1990 catalog watch was also 3aka3. The seller noted that the watch is an 80s production so I'm curious to hear from you all.
> 
> View attachment 17032932


Your Komandirskie has the early Type 34 case used only approx. 1985-1987 and the beveled edged movement is correct for this early case. The bezel is from 1988-1989 and should never be found on this early case, and the "little bird" caseback with serial number is from 1990-1992 and again should never be found on an early Type 34 case.

I also suspect the hands have been changed as the earliest models of this watch had chrome hands to include a chrome lollipop seconds hand.

Look at the 341201 on Vostok Amphibia CCCP to see a correct example.


----------



## steros

Oh, there were different versions of the 341 case? What are the differences?


----------



## gp20

Another day, another doubt... Thanks in advance.... I have doubt about the movement.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Another day, another doubt... Thanks in advance.... I have doubt about the movement.
> 
> View attachment 17035438
> 
> 
> View attachment 17035439


Movement is fine. Bezel is wrong. It should be yellow with circles.


----------



## gp20

E


Odessa200 said:


> Movement is fine. Bezel is wrong. It should be yellow with circles.
> View attachment 17035486


Bezel is yellow. The picture is very bad. I saw different yellow bezel for this one ( and different second hand : red or gold). I think this bezel is ok, in my opinion.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> E
> 
> Bezel is yellow. The picture is very bad. I saw different yellow bezel for this one ( and different second hand : red or gold). I think this bezel is ok, in my opinion.


Yes, on Dash’s site. But it is used so not sure if that configuration is authentic. 1 example does not mean much… Does anyone has a NOS watch with that bezel?


----------



## 979greenwich

There is also this variant in the catalogue.

The one you showed is not documented.


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Oh, there were different versions of the 341 case? What are the differences?


Early examples of the Type 34 case from 1985-1987 have a sloping back (see arrow) the three main bridges on the movements inside these watches can be either bevel-edged on the earliest examples, but by 1987 straight-edged bridges were in use but both movements should have the stamping "2414A SU" on the wheel-train bridge...

This early Type 34 case is only found with the caseback as shown below, and the bezel is always that as found on 119 Amphibia etc....


----------



## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, on Dash’s site. But it is used so not sure if that configuration is authentic. 1 example does not mean much… Does anyone has a NOS watch with that bezel?


I saw this combination 4 times in this topic (in french). This would be an export model (the seller is in Italy), the background is identical to the one above (zakaz)

rising sun - vostok rising sun red star CHIR - Page 12


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> Early examples of the Type 34 case from 1985-1987 have a sloping back (see arrow) the three main bridges on the movements inside these watches can be either bevel-edged on the earliest examples, but by 1987 straight-edged bridges were in use but both movements should have the stamping "2414A SU" on the wheel-train bridge...
> 
> This early Type 34 case is only found with the caseback as shown below, and the bezel is always that as found on 119 Amphibia etc....
> 
> View attachment 17036112


Thank you! I have noticed that the back of these cases are a little different in that detail, but I have not heard this explanation before. Now I have to carefully examine my 341’s!


----------



## NakhodkaKorabl

Avidfan said:


> Your Komandirskie has the early Type 34 case used only approx. 1985-1987 and the beveled edged movement is correct for this early case. The bezel is from 1988-1989 and should never be found on this early case, and the "little bird" caseback with serial number is from 1990-1992 and again should never be found on an early Type 34 case.
> 
> I also suspect the hands have been changed as the earliest models of this watch had chrome hands to include a chrome lollipop seconds hand.
> 
> Look at the 341201 on Vostok Amphibia CCCP to see a correct example.


So it sounds like what you're saying is that the case and movement are a match. The bezel is not a match but still from the 80s. And the caseback is from a 90s model as well as the hands possibly?


----------



## Avidfan

NakhodkaKorabl said:


> So it sounds like what you're saying is that the case and movement are a match. The bezel is not a match but still from the 80s. And the caseback is from a 90s model as well as the hands possibly?


The black hands were also used on the 341201 in the late 1980's but IMHO not with this early case, same with the bezel, used on the later Type 34 case only...


----------



## AaParker

I've not seen this example before. A "fantasy" dial? The movement and case are correct for a Raketa 24-hour watch. Many thanks for any thoughts.


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> I've not seen this example before. A "fantasy" dial? The movement and case are correct for a Raketa 24-hour watch. Many thanks for any thoughts.
> 
> View attachment 17045986
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 17045988
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 17045997


fake dial. Many such watches on Russian and Ukrainian sites. Here is one with Luch movement. I am not sure if the dial has legs for Raketa or Luch but one will be attached with a glue… Movement has a wrong balance bridge btw.


----------



## AaParker

Thanks, @Odessa200! I really appreciate your taking the time to look at this and to respond.


----------



## 979greenwich

Any opinions on this Pobeda?


----------



## Odessa200

Are the hands with lume?


----------



## 979greenwich

Odessa200 said:


> Are the hands with lume?


No, gilded.


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> No, gilded.


Then all is good as far as I see.


----------



## 979greenwich

Odessa200 said:


> Then all is good as far as I see.


Hence I bought it, thanks! I'm not an expert on old Pobedas, but this one looks pretty cool and I got a good deal (35 $).


----------



## AaParker

Hello there. I would really appreciate any thoughts you might have related to this Poljot alarm. Would it have a chapter ring? I've seen some green-lumed ones that do not. I do like the clean dial design. I couldn't find it in the catalogs. Thank you very much in advance for any thoughts you may have!


----------



## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello there. I would really appreciate any thoughts you might have related to this Poljot alarm. Would it have a chapter ring? I've seen some green-lumed ones that do not. I do like the clean dial design. I couldn't find it in the catalogs. Thank you very much in advance for any thoughts you may have!
> 
> View attachment 17055193
> 
> View attachment 17055195
> 
> 
> View attachment 17055197


I think it is legit. Here is the catalog.


----------



## AaParker

Odessa200 said:


> I think it is legit. Here is the catalog.
> View attachment 17055719


You have my sincerest thanks, @Odessa200. I truly appreciate it!


----------



## steros

AaParker said:


> Hello there. I would really appreciate any thoughts you might have related to this Poljot alarm. Would it have a chapter ring? I've seen some green-lumed ones that do not. I do like the clean dial design. I couldn't find it in the catalogs. Thank you very much in advance for any thoughts you may have!
> 
> View attachment 17055193
> 
> View attachment 17055195
> 
> 
> View attachment 17055197


What metal is the case? Aluminium?


----------



## AaParker

steros said:


> What metal is the case? Aluminium?


That's a good question; I'm not certain. We'll know if a few weeks!


----------



## RaymondVDK

Spotted this on the fleamarket here in Tbilisi. $70 ask


----------



## steros

RaymondVDK said:


> Spotted this on the fleamarket here in Tbilisi. $70 ask
> 
> 
> View attachment 17058578
> 
> View attachment 17058579


Nice flee market find, especially if the price can be reduced some. Nice type of strap also.


----------



## steros

Is this Vostok 2416b movement from the ussr era or is it later?


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Is this Vostok 2416b movement from the ussr era or is it later?
> View attachment 17061114
> 
> View attachment 17061115


Seems to be stamped SU on the rotor bridge so I would say Soviet, as you know the calendar font is a clue as is the type of mainplate used (removable dial side balance jewel holder) etc. A Soviet movement should also have golden anti-shock springs and golden seconds hand pinion spring as found on all Soviet 24xx movements.

The balance cock that doesn't match the other two main bridges is also typical of late Soviet production 2416b's as is the large ratchet wheel screw that indicates the barrel has the new longer arbor used from approx. 1990 onwards...


----------



## RaymondVDK

Any thoughts about this Vostok?


----------



## Avidfan

RaymondVDK said:


> Any thoughts about this Vostok?
> 
> View attachment 17061412


Looks good to me!  From around 1990 in Type 17 case with 2409A movement...

Comrade @capannelle has an example just the same in his collection on Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## maxster

Hello, I have been interested in getting a Pobeda Sputnik for quite a while. It was maybe a year ago I last looked around and researched, but I recently checked ebay again and found this one. From my memory, the dial and hands are legit, the numbers are too light but I assume that's just fading. Any sputnik fan who can help?


----------



## Odessa200

maxster said:


> Hello, I have been interested in getting a Pobeda Sputnik for quite a while. It was maybe a year ago I last looked around and researched, but I recently checked ebay again and found this one. From my memory, the dial and hands are legit, the numbers are too light but I assume that's just fading. Any sputnik fan who can help?
> 
> 
> View attachment 17062432
> 
> View attachment 17062430
> 
> View attachment 17062433
> 
> View attachment 17062431


The dial is legit and the hands are legit but this is a wrong combination. The hands belong to Sputnik with gilded numbers on the dial. And the dial belongs to hands with blue paint.
If I were you and if the price is a good one, I would buy it and replace hands (finding these hands can be tricky): I would use old hands and add the paint that matches the faded blue on the dial.


----------



## steros

Avidfan said:


> Seems to be stamped SU on the rotor bridge so I would say Soviet, as you know the calendar font is a clue as is the type of mainplate used (removable dial side balance jewel holder) etc. A Soviet movement should also have golden anti-shock springs and golden seconds hand pinion spring as found on all Soviet 24xx movements.
> 
> The balance cock that doesn't match the other two main bridges is also typical of late Soviet production 2416b's as is the large ratchet wheel screw that indicates the barrel has the new longer arbor used from approx. 1990 onwards...


Yes I think it looks more than S in SU than R in RUS. I could of course ask for more photos. When it comes to date fonts from different times, I find the figure 7 a little hard to judge. The 7 of the later font is more angular than it is on the one from the ussr era, but I cant see wich one this is.


----------



## rikala

I'm trying to figure out this one. Obviously Vostok dial & hands, has a Vostok 2414 movement. But the case, I guess it's not a Vostok case?

Do anyone know which brand the case is?

It features the typical back lid with separate fastnening ring like many russian watches have. The back lid is just marked with 3 digits and nothing else.


----------



## Odessa200

It is this one or a similar to this one.


----------



## Avidfan

steros said:


> Yes I think it looks more than S in SU than R in RUS. I could of course ask for more photos. When it comes to date fonts from different times, I find the figure 7 a little hard to judge. The 7 of the later font is more angular than it is on the one from the ussr era, but I cant see wich one this is.
> View attachment 17063222


Yes the 7 is tricky that's why I prefer the 2 which is much more distinctive and there are lots of them, but looking at a few Soviet and post-Soviet 24xx calendar rings your 7 looks less angular so I'd still say late Soviet until proven otherwise...


----------



## Avidfan

rikala said:


> I'm trying to figure out this one. Obviously Vostok dial & hands, has a Vostok 2414 movement. But the case, I guess it's not a Vostok case?
> 
> Do anyone know which brand the case is?
> 
> It features the typical back lid with separate fastnening ring like many russian watches have. The back lid is just marked with 3 digits and nothing else.
> View attachment 17063587


Here's a link to the example in comrade @capannelle's collection with the same dial, your case is similar but definitely not the same...Vostok Amphibia CCCP


----------



## rikala

Avidfan said:


> Here's a link to the example in comrade @capannelle's collection with the same dial, your case is similar but definitely not the same...Vostok Amphibia CCCP


Thanks! I guess you mean this one. 

Yeah, quite similar, I think the movement, dial, hands & index ring is from this watch, but put in another case. Still bit confused about the case though.


----------



## Avidfan

rikala said:


> Thanks! I guess you mean this one.
> 
> Yeah, quite similar, I think the movement, dial, hands & index ring is from this watch, but put in another case. Still bit confused about the case though.
> 
> View attachment 17064539


Probably put into a replacement case so the owner didn't have to suffer the terrible Zim bracelet that this series of watches came fitted with.


----------



## Maxsterr

Odessa200 said:


> The dial is legit and the hands are legit but this is a wrong combination. The hands belong to Sputnik with gilded numbers on the dial. And the dial belongs to hands with blue paint.
> If I were you and if the price is a good one, I would buy it and replace hands (finding these hands can be tricky): I would use old hands and add the paint that matches the faded blue on the dial.
> View attachment 17062785
> 
> View attachment 17062784


Thank you! (I found my old login)
It's only 150 euros so im gonna pick it up, but just saw the seller also has this one and might pick up both

























As far as I can tell the hands are switched, but overall quality is very good for 150 euros if the other things are stock. Also, any clue about the poststamp? Seller says "Original box and stamp" so idk if the stamp was included when bought, I am unable to translate what's on the stamp hahaha


----------



## Odessa200

Maxsterr said:


> Thank you! (I found my old login)
> It's only 150 euros so im gonna pick it up, but just saw the seller also has this one and might pick up both
> View attachment 17064659
> 
> View attachment 17064658
> 
> View attachment 17064657
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell the hands are switched, but overall quality is very good for 150 euros if the other things are stock. Also, any clue about the poststamp? Seller says "Original box and stamp" so idk if the stamp was included when bought, I am unable to translate what's on the stamp hahaha


Do not buy this one: fake dial! Hands are right. This watch is all about the dial and the second hand. The rest of the watch is very common. Buying it with a fake dial for more than 50$ is throwing money away!


----------



## CAG_1337

Odessa200 said:


> Do not buy this one: fake dial! Hands are right. This watch is all about the dial and the second hand. The rest of the watch is very common. Buying it with a fake dial for more than 50$ is throwing money away!


He's right. The dial is a fake. The quick tell is the lines of longitude don't converge at the north.


----------



## SnackPack1337

Hi all,
I was wondering if this Raketa Polar seemed legitimate! 
Thanks in advance,








RAKETA 24 hours Vintage Russian Soviet USSR Antarctic Polar Watch Rocket White | eBay


Condition new. Fully working watch.



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

No it does not. 1st of all is an obvious: it has a wrong caliber. 24 h watch need 2623. Not 2609. Note how the hands are set that it is impossible to tell if this is 24h or not. Then we see an old Soviet movement with a serial number and a more recent replaced balance. Then all these late watches had a serial number on the back cover (not movement) but this has the back polished to a mirror state. The whole watch is too shiny: possibly re-chromed. Then we see some crown that is not a Raketa crown. As far as the dial: no clue. Just before old Soviet Raketa factory went into the lala land they made similar dials personally I never felt interested in this model so never researched how real dials looks vs fakes. So the dial maybe real but I see the seller has all the possible colors for this dial so I think it is fake! 

When in doubt, look at the other watches the seller has. This guy has this:









RAKETA 24 hours Vintage Russian Soviet USSR Antarctic Polar Watch Rocket Yellow | eBay


Condition new. Fully working watch.



www.ebay.com





This time the caliber 2628. Again, not a 24 h caliber but a caliber that supposed to have 2 calendars.

I would avoid this seller.


----------



## SnackPack1337

Thanks so much @Odessa200. Really appreciate you taking a look and explaining it!! Really helpful.


----------



## VWatchie

It's been many years since I visited this amazing thread with all its amazing experts. I've been devoting these years to mostly Swiss and Japanese watches, but my love for Russian watches has never faded.

Anyway, I would really appreciate your help and/or opinions about the following Raketa Big Zero. I've been on the lookout for a Big Zero for a long time and a few weeks ago I found an attractive option on tradera.com (Swedish eBay). Having done some research, the case, dial, crystal (flat), and hands looked legit to me and the outer condition looked near flawless. So, I decided to pull the trigger and paid approx. $120 for it.

However, yesterday I opened the case back to begin servicing it as it was running extremely poorly and I almost flinched when I saw the state of the movement (see the picture). As you can see it is absolutely filthy and looking at it through my stereo microscope it was like looking down into a grave of decay. Also, the barrel bridge has been marred by a way too large screwdriver at one of the case screws.

So, my questions are two. Is this really a legit Raketa Big Zero? I'd be more than happy to provide additional pictures if needed. Why is there such an extreme discrepancy between the outer and the inner (movement) conditions?


----------



## 979greenwich

Looks original to me, but it desperately needs a service. The last person who "serviced" it (probably decades ago) did a poor oiling job.


----------



## Odessa200

I agree. Looks legit. Unfortunately the filthy movements and filthy watches are way more common that one may expect. Cheap watches used and abused and many watch owners do not give a 2nd thought about what they do them….


----------



## RedFroggy

Privet …
What do you think of the baton hands frequently encountered on this model please ?










The accepted version, as seen in catalogues, has dauphine pointy hands as per Dashiel’s specimen .









thanks for your thoughts


----------



## AaParker

Hi @RedFroggy. While certainly not conclusive, my example has baton hands as well


----------



## RedFroggy

Many thanks AaParker . In the few catalogues I have seen, only the “pointy” hands are featured .
They are, however, encountered so often with baton hands that I can not discount this Mdl could have also been produced that way ?

We can also suppose the baton hands could have started to be fitted later on with the 2nd sans-Serif script such as your specimen ?
Maybe yours is legit & mine is wrong or, at best, “transitional” ?

From the catalogue


----------



## VWatchie

Thank you very much for your comments regarding my Raketa Big Zero. I have my own theory as to why the watch itself looks almost new while the movement looks like it has been in service for many decades. I don't know what my theory is worth. Maybe it's too crazy, but I'm going to present it anyway and I'm curious to know what you think about it.

The Raketa Big Zero is one of the most popular vintage Soviet watches, and yet there is plenty of it available for purchase at relatively high prices compared to many other Russian watches with the same movement. I think the Chinese have figured this out and since they are prepared to do almost anything to make a few bucks they pirate the watch and then bang in an old movement that they probably bought a whole container of for a few pennies each. As long as the watch is ticking, they sell, and the expectations for correct timekeeping are so low that they get away with it.

To me, it is completely incomprehensible that the external condition can look so new when the movement looks like it has been used daily for 40 years. The movement is so dirty that it's a minor miracle (or top-notch Russian engineering!) that it's still ticking.

Crazy theory?


----------



## Odessa200

My theory (that was confirmed by a guy who was selling quite a few Raketas) is like this:

in the early 90s there were a lot parts left unused when the factory went bankrupt. Some were used to ‘pay’ workers. Some were simply stolen. Many were just thrown in garbage. There are watchmakers who have boxes full of these Zero dials. They sell them in bulk locally. You stop by a old watchmaker who is about to retire and buy a box. Now, that you are possession of the hot furniture (dials, hands, cases) you start assembling watches. Obviously you need movements and servicing a movement is an expensive labor intense operation that cost money and only slows your sales. The sellers make 5-10-15-20$ a watch. If they put 2 watches for sale that both look similar one for 50$ unserviced and another for 70$ serviced the cheap one will sell fast but the expensive one will sit for a month till someone who is willing to pay 20$ more. So this is how this ‘nice looking from the outside’ watches get created: they assembled from spare parts and old dirty movements strictly for a quick sale.

By only focusing on the price, we ourselves created this problem: we buy cheap and the sellers have no insensitive to sell good quality serviced watches. For soviet and Russian watches, cost of service inflates the price of the watch significant % and makes it less attractive for a lot of buyers.


----------



## 979greenwich

The Big zero dial is extra resistant to the elements and passing of time in my experience. Mine have some signs of wear on cases but none on dials.


----------



## palletwheel

I have 1 large Big Zero and two of the small dial ones. One of the small dial ones is a true NOS, I have all the correct packaging for it. I had a photo of all three together which I posted but with apologies I can't find. You can see the NOS has a white dial, the other two a little faded. You might not quite notice until you do put them together. So if the watch was actually used the dials do fade a bit with exposure to light.


----------



## VWatchie

@Odessa200

That sounds like a very likely explanation. Many thanks for this! The only thing one can marvel at is how many NOS dials, hands and cases there are.

In any case, guided by your answers, I now assume that the parts are genuine, but that the watch was assembled much later.

As for service, I think few who do not work with service themselves realize the massive amount of work it entails. That is, if you want to make the movement work perfectly. After I service this watch I will not sell it for less than $500 so I expect to keep it 😆 I guess I could let it go for $250 if I tire of it, but I'm guessing few will be interested. I'm guessing that 95% of everyone who buys a Raketa Big Zero is only interested in it looking good and keeping time with a few minutes of error per day. Unfortunately, an unserviced watch wears down the movement, but I guess few cares, unfortunately.

Speaking of service, I have done several service walkthroughs on WRT, and as far as Russian movements are concerned, I have done two which you can find via the links below. Hope they may be of use to those of you who work with service
.
Vostok calibre 2431 Service Walkthrough
Vostok 2409 Service Walkthrough


----------



## Odessa200

VWatchie said:


> @Odessa200
> 
> That sounds like a very likely explanation. Many thanks for this! The only thing one can marvel at is how many NOS dials, hands and cases there are.
> 
> In any case, guided by your answers, I now assume that the parts are genuine, but that the watch was assembled much later.
> 
> As for service, I think few who do not work with service themselves realize the massive amount of work it entails. That is, if you want to make the movement work perfectly. After I service this watch I will not sell it for less than $500 so I expect to keep it 😆 I guess I could let it go for $250 if I tire of it, but I'm guessing few will be interested. I'm guessing that 95% of everyone who buys a Raketa Big Zero is only interested in it looking good and keeping time with a few minutes of error per day. Unfortunately, an unserviced watch wears down the movement, but I guess few cares, unfortunately.
> 
> Speaking of service, I have done several service walkthroughs on WRT, and as far as Russian movements are concerned, I have done two which you can find via the links below. Hope they may be of use to those of you who work with service
> .
> Vostok calibre 2431 Service Walkthrough
> Vostok 2409 Service Walkthrough


You are asking ‘how many new dials/hands/cases still remain’: not many. One may be surprised how come they still available after 30 years the country that made them is gone… the answer is that USSR’s watch factories mass produced these. Really mass produced. Hundreds of thousands. So some are still around. Especially the models that were cut short by the Soviet economy collapse. But this is just my opinion…


----------



## VWatchie

Odessa200 said:


> USSR’s watch factories mass produced these. Really mass produced. Hundreds of thousands.


That could certainly be true. I listened to a Podcast with David Henderson-Stewart who is Raketa's current CEO and if I remember correctly he mentioned the factory produced millions of watches every year during the Soviet era.

OT so I apologize in advance:
By the way, have you noticed if the interest in this forum has decreased since the military conflict between Russia and Ukraine broke out? I don't usually hide that I love Russian watches and their history and even before the war I could note that Russian hatred sometimes shone through. I guess it might have gotten worse now. It's really depressing.


----------



## Odessa200

VWatchie said:


> OT so I apologize in advance:
> By the way, have you noticed if the interest in this forum has decreased since the military conflict between Russia and Ukraine broke out? I don't usually hide that I love Russian watches and their history and even before the war I could note that Russian hatred sometimes shone through. I guess it might have gotten worse now. It's really depressing.


Yes, this is for sure a fact. Partially because people lost interest partially because many lost ability to purchase from Russia.


----------



## VWatchie

Odessa200 said:


> Yes, this is for sure a fact. Partially because people lost interest partially because many lost ability to purchase from Russia.


That's really, _really_ sad to hear. I really wish people could distinguish between politics and the love of watches. Has it perhaps become cheaper to buy Russian watches? Most listings on eBay seem to be from Ukraine.


----------



## VWatchie

I can't take my eyes off this eBay listing: Raketa 24h Polar Expedition

Yes, a staggering amount of money for a Russian watch, but it's just so fascinating. The listing says:

_"Raketa Polar Expedition hand-wound movement from USSR period.
Missile icebreaker Lenin is the first icebreaker of the USSR, watches were issued only to crew members of the icebreaker, that's why the watch is very rare..."_

I've heard about these watches but can anyone confirm that the story is true? Of course, can anyone confirm if this watch is legit and if anyone is familiar with the seller named pedas_96 (100% Positive feedback)? What Raketa calibre should be expected in this watch?

Thanks!


----------



## gp20

VWatchie said:


> That's really, _really_ sad to hear. I really wish people could distinguish between politics and the love of watches. Has it perhaps become cheaper to buy Russian watches? Most listings on eBay seem to be from Ukraine.


Russian sellers can't sell anymore on Ebay. 


Odessa200 said:


> You are asking ‘how many new dials/hands/cases still remain’: not many. One may be surprised how come they still available after 30 years the country that made them is gone… the answer is that USSR’s watch factories mass produced these. Really mass produced. Hundreds of thousands. So some are still around. Especially the models that were cut short by the Soviet economy collapse. But this is just my opinion…


And many fake dial exists... Someone are really impressive. I bought one, index and numbers are brilliant on light but look :


----------



## Odessa200

VWatchie said:


> I can't take my eyes off this eBay listing: Raketa 24h Polar Expedition
> 
> Yes, a staggering amount of money for a Russian watch, but it's just so fascinating. The listing says:
> 
> _"Raketa Polar Expedition hand-wound movement from USSR period.
> Missile icebreaker Lenin is the first icebreaker of the USSR, watches were issued only to crew members of the icebreaker, that's why the watch is very rare..."_
> 
> I've heard about these watches but can anyone confirm that the story is true? Of course, can anyone confirm if this watch is legit and if anyone is familiar with the seller named pedas_96 (100% Positive feedback)? What Raketa calibre should be expected in this watch?
> 
> Thanks!


yes, it is nice a rare watch. I just sold same watch in NOS condition. Too bad the listing does not show the movement photo (cause it has an interesting aspect) but the exterior appears to be all correct.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Russian sellers can't sell anymore on Ebay.
> 
> And many fake dial exists... Someone are really impressive. I bought one, index and numbers are brilliant on light but look :
> 
> 
> View attachment 17090877


what are we suppose to see?


----------



## 979greenwich

VWatchie said:


> I can't take my eyes off this eBay listing: Raketa 24h Polar Expedition
> 
> Yes, a staggering amount of money for a Russian watch, but it's just so fascinating. The listing says:
> 
> _"Raketa Polar Expedition hand-wound movement from USSR period.
> Missile icebreaker Lenin is the first icebreaker of the USSR, watches were issued only to crew members of the icebreaker, that's why the watch is very rare..."_
> 
> I've heard about these watches but can anyone confirm that the story is true? Of course, can anyone confirm if this watch is legit and if anyone is familiar with the seller named pedas_96 (100% Positive feedback)? What Raketa calibre should be expected in this watch?
> 
> Thanks!


If it's real, it should have a 2623 24-hour movement. But I don't buy the story, or the price tag. USSR watches commemorated every kind of jubilees and these type of watches were usually available to the public.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Russian sellers can't sell anymore on Ebay.


The upsetting part is that a regular person cannot sell 1 watch but a well known Russian company can continue to sell hundreds. Is that something or what…


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> If it's real, it should have a 2623 24-hour movement. But I don't buy the story, or the price tag. USSR watches commemorated every kind of jubilees and these type of watches were usually available to the public.


no, it should not. I mean it has a 24h movement but it is not marked so. This watch was made to give to the crew to the icebreaker and only a few are available.


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## gp20

Odessa200 said:


> what are we suppose to see?


Paketa inscription, too thin.


----------



## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> Paketa inscription, too thin.








Атомному ледоколу Ленин ХХ лет - Часовой форум Watch.ru


Атомному ледоколу Ленин ХХ лет Ракета




forum.watch.ru
 




You suppose to see this.


----------



## 979greenwich

Or this:









Часы мужские редкие Ракета 2623.Н "Атомному ледоколу "Ленин" 20 лет (СССР).


<p>На ходу, не обслуживал.</p> <p>В продаже четыре отдельных лота из маленькой подборки по ледокольному флоту СССР.</p>




meshok.net


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Or this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Часы мужские редкие Ракета 2623.Н "Атомному ледоколу "Ленин" 20 лет (СССР).
> 
> 
> <p>На ходу, не обслуживал.</p> <p>В продаже четыре отдельных лота из маленькой подборки по ледокольному флоту СССР.</p>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> meshok.net


No. Replaced movement. The flat movements were made years after this watch was made. Plus the moment you see a ‘correct’ 2623 in this watch you can be assured it is replaced. This watch is quite interesting and the russian forum has some info and watches for the icebreaker crew.

As far as price: it is very subjective. many people spend more money on watch straps than we spend on watches….


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## 979greenwich

And this?


http://forum.watch.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=1550280&d=1475947222



Edit:
"This watch was given to my great-grandfather as a participant in the October revolution" 

See what I mean?
For 500 $ I would require box, papers and and a photo of the owner with the watch on board the Lenin icebreaker.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> And this?
> 
> 
> http://forum.watch.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=1550280&d=1475947222
> 
> 
> 
> Edit:
> "This watch was given to my great-grandfather as a participant in the October revolution"
> 
> See what I mean?
> For 500 $ I would require box, papers and and a photo of the owner with the watch on board the Lenin icebreaker.


Comparing these 2 is a bit unfair: hundreds of thousands were given the Vostok (mass produced model) and a few thousands of these Raketas were ever made. But I agree that the prices are very subjective. Some people want to have every 24h Raketa. For them spending 500$ on this watch is acceptable. Many of us bought new Vostoks for about 150$. Can another watch (that is hard to find) cost 3 times the prices of a Vostok (that is mass produced and readily available)?

PS: for the record, I have no connection or stake in the sale of that watch for 500 that sparked this discussion. And the watch I sold was new and half the money. But by no means such watches should cost same amount that regular mass produced watches cost. I hope we can agree on that.


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## 979greenwich

All valid points. The problem with (even the biggest) russian watch collectors is that they are used to paying 50 $ for a watch. 
As the price rises, the number of them willing to spend 500 $ drops to a handfew.
That's the reason I didn't snatch the BAMphibia as soon as I saw it. Most I ever paid for a watch was 150 $, and that was for a Sturmanskie chrono worth 300.
But there are other people in the world who don't worry much about money.


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> All valid points. The problem with (even the biggest) russian watch collectors is that they are used to paying 50 $ for a watch.
> As the price rises, the number of them willing to spend 500 $ drops to a handfew.
> That's the reason I didn't snatch the BAMphibia as soon as I saw it. Most I ever paid for a watch was 150 $, and that was for a Sturmanskie chrono worth 300.
> But there are other people in the world who don't worry much about money.


Very true. Price is very subjective. Especially in a niche sector like ‘soviet/russian watches’. There are plenty of experts who can precisely estimate the price of any Rolex. But the price of a Raketa or Vostok is something completely different.


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## VWatchie

Odessa200 said:


> what are we suppose to see?


I wonder that too. I've looked at the dial for a long time and compared it to my own but I can't find anything to complain about. What are we missing?


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## VWatchie

979greenwich said:


> If it's real, it should have a 2623 24-hour movement. But I don't buy the story, or the price tag.


I've asked the seller to provide a clear closeup picture of the movement. I'll show it here once and if I get it. So what kind of price tag would you buy? The seller accepts offers.


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## gp20

VWatchie said:


> I wonder that too. I've looked at the dial for a long time and compared it to my own but I can't find anything to complain about. What are we missing?


I have got this watch and im pretty sure that is a Fake dial. Look at the paketa inscription... At right, a good one.


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## cliffjnr

a fake big zero yes? these seem to be getting pretty good now. but the text at cccp (too straight, too close together), the too long second hand, and the very slightly different indices, and the crown, make me think yes. annoyingly the seller posted pictures of a legit big zero and is selling at NOS


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## Odessa200

cliffjnr said:


> a fake big zero yes? these seem to be getting pretty good now. but the text at cccp (too straight, too close together), the too long second hand, and the very slightly different indices, and the crown, make me think yes. annoyingly the seller posted pictures of a legit big zero and is selling at NOS
> 
> View attachment 17091762
> 
> 
> View attachment 17091766


same is this NOS Doctor. Now, what is also upsetting is that although ebay allows you to report a sale of counterfeit products they will do absolutely nothing if you do so….


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## cliffjnr

Odessa200 said:


> View attachment 17091820
> 
> 
> 
> same is this NOS Doctor. Now, what is also upsetting is that although ebay allows you to report a sale of counterfeit products they will do absolutely nothing if you do so….


so you agree its a fake? this is the seller and the same listing i bought. it shall be going back to ukraine no less should be interesting


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## Odessa200

cliffjnr said:


> so you agree its a fake? this is the seller and the same listing i bought. it shall be going back to ukraine no less should be interesting
> 
> View attachment 17091886


actually I am not sure. The quality of the dial photos do not allow me to make a decision. I would ask the seller if the dial authentic and made in the 80s. Almost all the sellers will tell you one way or another. If you get uncommitted answer like ‘the watch is from 80s and I did not change the dial’ then assume it is a fake dial (he did not change it but his watchmaker did). Especially professional watch sellers like this one: he must know precisely. But in many cases the seller will readily admit that the dial is newly made.


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## 979greenwich

cliffjnr said:


> a fake big zero yes? these seem to be getting pretty good now. but the text at cccp (too straight, too close together), the too long second hand, and the very slightly different indices, and the crown, make me think yes. annoyingly the seller posted pictures of a legit big zero and is selling at NOS
> 
> View attachment 17091762
> 
> 
> View attachment 17091766


This dial is 100 % fake.


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## cliffjnr

thanks both. annoyingly the listing photos are not what was sent and really thats a crappy thing to do


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## gp20

cliffjnr said:


> a fake big zero yes? these seem to be getting pretty good now. but the text at cccp (too straight, too close together), the too long second hand, and the very slightly different indices, and the crown, make me think yes. annoyingly the seller posted pictures of a legit big zero and is selling at NOS
> 
> View attachment 17091762
> 
> 
> View attachment 17091766


100% Fake. Hands are wrong , dial is a Bad copy. Big zéro is selling 2500-3000 rubles =30-40£... Don't pay 140£ for this kind of watch...


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## cliffjnr

gp20 said:


> 100% Fake. Dials are wrong , dial is a Bad copy. Big zéro is selling 2500-3000 rubles =30-40£... Don't pay 140£ for this kind of watch...


thanks im sending it back. where are genuine ones selling for 30 to 40 quid?


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## gp20

In Russia. Avito/ Meshok but without delivery. It's a little bit more expensive in Ukrain. But on ebay, from ukrainian seller's it's too expensive. They know who they are selling to...


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## Odessa200

gp20 said:


> In Russia. Avito/ Meshok but without delivery. It's a little bit more expensive in Ukrain. But on ebay, from ukrainian seller's it's too expensive. They know who they are selling to...


You get what you pay for. Buying on Russian (or Ukrainian) platforms have many issues. 1) some do not allow you to register from abroad (you need a russian phone, etc). Lets say someone helps you. 2) all the payment methods of transferring to a card in some obscure bank may not work for foreigners. Many sellers do not take paypal, etc. 3) many refuse to ship abroad. 4) there are sketchy tactics there when seller’s accomplices deliberately jack up the price by placing false bids and the most important is 5)there is no real protection by these platforms. All you have is the seller’s rating but we know how trustworthy the ratings are. Buying via ebay is more expensive. True. But the buyer is protected by ebay.

I am not saying ’only buy on ebay’. By all means, people who can master the East Europe platforms and deal with some level of riskiness, should check what is offered there. I use to buy on Avito via an intermediary for a while. I would not be able to do it on my own.


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## gp20

You're right. But I Saw tactic n° 4 on ebay too with ukrainian sellers recently and eBay don't do anything to stop it so it's not a reason for me ( account with 0 note who put bids but don't buy at final). I use Meshok and i don't have any problem until now, you Can easily put a Bad evaluation and they don't like that so they send the exact object . But you're right it's more risky ( i received the very good Big 0 Fake on it and can't do nothing After but for 35€... The cost to delivery on these countries is high from Europe so i would buy on ebay....), but less expensive. ( eBay takes a fee too, here no fee at all)


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## 979greenwich

gp20 said:


> I have got this watch and im pretty sure that is a Fake dial. Look at the paketa inscription... At right, a good one.
> View attachment 17091256


Maybe the printer ran out of paint  I suggest to take out both movements and closely compare the dials. Fakes almost never use the upside-down V, but Л instead.


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## cliffjnr

This is the reponse from the seller regarding the big zero watch and requested return:



> Hello there! Very sorry to hear that you have no enough experience with our Soviet watches especially with this very Big Zero Raketa model. Your picture you attached is 200% proof of the genuine Raketa Big Zero we sent to you. Please realize that the picture in the listing we've made at least 15 years ago. From that period we sold out hundreds of these genuine Raketa watches. Of course all of them from different parties. Probably you don't know but absolutely all products that are made in different years or even decades may have tiny difference that is absolutely normally. We have majority numbers of regulars buyers(collectors) from all around the world that order the items every month and they're more than happy with it. You're one and only who wrote such weird things. I would say that it is even offensive for us as for a trustworthy store. We sold more that 25 thousands watches here on eBay for last 20 years from 6 eBay accounts and have good reputation on the collector's watch forums. I hope you've simply mistaken. Or you changed your mind for some reason and fantasized history with watch authenticity? Please tell the truth. We will resolve this case anyway don't worry. Just need the truth...



my original post with photos:








Q&A Expertise thread: Is this watch legit or a...


If it's real, it should have a 2623 24-hour movement. But I don't buy the story, or the price tag. USSR watches commemorated every kind of jubilees and these type of watches were usually available to the public. no, it should not. I mean it has a 24h movement but it is not marked so. This...




www.watchuseek.com


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## gp20

It's their special answer... They made the same with Copernic Watches with 2609 HA instead of HN. They know and you know nothing because you aren't ukrainian or Russian and they sold 20000 Watches si they know their job.... They just want to sell their Watches, franken or not.
Compare hands between ebay's ad and your photo (V instead of U)... It's not the same. The seller is a scammer.

Look at here :
https://vintagewatchinc.com/ussr/raketa/big-zero/


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## Odessa200

I agree. The seller is bad. He is full of BS. Must be avoided. If you see that the photo is not matching the actual item you have a reason to demand a return. Real watch or not: it is not as described/pictured. Ebay will support you. Demand the seller pays for return label.


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## rikala

VWatchie said:


> It's been many years since I visited this amazing thread with all its amazing experts. I've been devoting these years to mostly Swiss and Japanese watches, but my love for Russian watches has never faded.
> 
> Anyway, I would really appreciate your help and/or opinions about the following Raketa Big Zero. I've been on the lookout for a Big Zero for a long time and a few weeks ago I found an attractive option on tradera.com (Swedish eBay). Having done some research, the case, dial, crystal (flat), and hands looked legit to me and the outer condition looked near flawless. So, I decided to pull the trigger and paid approx. $120 for it.
> 
> However, yesterday I opened the case back to begin servicing it as it was running extremely poorly and I almost flinched when I saw the state of the movement (see the picture). As you can see it is absolutely filthy and looking at it through my stereo microscope it was like looking down into a grave of decay. Also, the barrel bridge has been marred by a way too large screwdriver at one of the case screws.
> 
> So, my questions are two. Is this really a legit Raketa Big Zero? I'd be more than happy to provide additional pictures if needed. Why is there such an extreme discrepancy between the outer and the inner (movement) conditions?
> View attachment 17084777
> 
> 
> View attachment 17084776
> 
> 
> View attachment 17084774
> 
> 
> View attachment 17084775


I recommend getting this instead, it completly NIB and is probably much better looking. Not the same dial though.









Raketa Peterhof big Zero


Utropspris: 250 kr. Typ: Auktion. Slutar: 2022-12-19 09:22:41. Köp & sälj begagnade & oanvända Övriga armbandsur på Tradera.




www.tradera.com





Not sure if it's the same user I purshased from (two years ago), but he had a few nib and would put up one new every three weeks or something.


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## cliffjnr

Odessa200 said:


> I agree. The seller is bad. He is full of BS. Must be avoided. If you see that the photo is not matching the actual item you have a reason to demand a return. Real watch or not: it is not as described/pictured. Ebay will support you. Demand the seller pays for return label.


just an update seller said he couldn't or wouldnt pay return while insisting watch was genuine. eventually ebay stepped in and said he had to pay postage he refused and and instead told me to keep the watch and have a full refund (strange considering according to him its a genuine big zero)

he then asked for me to leave him positive feedback and not mention the watch is a counterfeit because it isnt and i dont know what im talking about.

so.... anyone want to buy a counterfeit big zero? haha


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## Odessa200

cliffjnr said:


> just an update seller said he couldn't or wouldnt pay return while insisting watch was genuine. eventually ebay stepped in and said he had to pay postage he refused and and instead told me to keep the watch and have a full refund (strange considering according to him its a genuine big zero)
> 
> he then asked for me to leave him positive feedback and not mention the watch is a counterfeit because it isnt and i dont know what im talking about.
> 
> so.... anyone want to buy a counterfeit big zero? haha


The problem is the shipping from abroad to Russia: the postage is super expensive and this is why it is economically not viable for Russian sellers to reclaim back the watches sometimes.

Donate it to a Goodwill! Pass along the gift.


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## gp20

The seller is Ukrainian, impossible for him to be Russian on Ebay.


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## cliffjnr

now i can keep it decided to see what the movement was in it. i have an su version movement from a paketa watch i already own, so i know what that looks like, and this one sounds a little different.

this is the movement on the fake big zero


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## 979greenwich

It's a combination of a couple of 2609.HA movements from different times (beveled and non-beveled bridges).
Edit: If you buy a few more of these, maybe it could run the seller out of business


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## Odessa200

It is an old movement that cannot be possibly in an authentic Big Zero but I politely disagree with @979greenwich: all bridges are beveled, just old movement from early 80s.


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## 979greenwich

Odessa200 said:


> It is an old movement that cannot be possibly in an authentic Big Zero but I politely disagree with @979greenwich: all bridges are beveled, just old movement from early 80s.


Ahem...


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## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Ahem...


yes, this looks beveled to me (both cases). But maybe it is just my eyes

Here is a flat one. Look at the circled part shape.

Regardless, the partially or fully beveled movement is not what is expected in a legit Zero.


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## cliffjnr

regardless of what it actually is, its stopped running after 1 full wind.

it also a lot lot louder and more vulnerable sounding than the real paketa movement i have.

just a reminder the guy is selling these on ebay for 140 quid as nos, with images of a real big zero in the listing.


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## Odessa200

cliffjnr said:


> regardless of what it actually is, its stopped running after 1 full wind.
> 
> it also a lot lot louder and more vulnerable sounding than the real paketa movement i have.
> 
> just a reminder the guy is selling these on ebay for 140 quid as nos, with images of a real big zero in the listing.


Stopped running: happens. Watch was not properly serviced. 

It is a Real Raketa movement! Just a bit older than what is supposed to be in a watch introduced in late 80s. Luckily for us fakers are not able to fake movements. They, at worst, assemble movements from wrong parts but each part is real and authentic.


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## folkform

Hello all, I am interested in this Slava watch, but the date wheel looks strange to me. Is this a franken? Thanks!


----------



## Kopernik

Hello, I'm in the market for a silver Raketa Copernicus. There is this seller called 'nostalgyua' on eBay who has listed two of them claiming they are NOS and come with original papers and box. I'm hoping to get your opinion on the legitimacy of these listings or experience with this seller. Thank you.








!NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for !NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com












!NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for !NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com


----------



## Odessa200

folkform said:


> Hello all, I am interested in this Slava watch, but the date wheel looks strange to me. Is this a franken? Thanks!
> 
> View attachment 17113934
> View attachment 17113932


Franken: calendar in Cyrillic while dial is in Latin. Also hands have wrong paint color (black on black is not that visible). Here is the catalog photo.


----------



## Odessa200

Kopernik said:


> Hello, I'm in the market for a silver Raketa Copernicus. There is this seller called 'nostalgyua' on eBay who has listed two of them claiming they are NOS and come with original papers and box. I'm hoping to get your opinion on the legitimacy of these listings or experience with this seller. Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> !NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags | eBay
> 
> 
> Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for !NOS NEW !Ussr RAKETA COPERNIC COPERNICUS KOPERNIK gray 100% ORIGINAL box tags at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
> 
> 
> 
> www.ebay.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/266010307038?hash=item3def7329de:g:eek:RAAAOSwasBjgjC2
> View attachment 17114195
> View attachment 17114199


Looks good to me


----------



## 979greenwich

Odessa200 said:


> Looks good to me


Me too.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

Happy Holidays all. 

I'm looking to pick up my first Raketa Perpetual. Posting 2 listings that seem ok. I don't know much about the tell tale signs for this model so forgive if these are egregious. Thanks.

SOVIET RAKETA PERPETUAL CALENDANR MEN'S WATCH. | eBay 

Raketa Watch Ussr Perpetual Calendar Gold Plated | eBay


----------



## 979greenwich

Snuffalo Bill said:


> Happy Holidays all.
> 
> I'm looking to pick up my first Raketa Perpetual. Posting 2 listings that seem ok. I don't know much about the tell tale signs for this model so forgive if these are egregious. Thanks.
> 
> SOVIET RAKETA PERPETUAL CALENDANR MEN'S WATCH. | eBay
> 
> Raketa Watch Ussr Perpetual Calendar Gold Plated | eBay


Both look good to me.


----------



## Snuffalo Bill

979greenwich said:


> Both look good to me.


Thank you very much!


----------



## AaParker

Hello, I know that this version does have some redials associated with it, but what are your thoughts on this Volna? I'm thinking it may be correct? The "wave" above Volna is broken and it is solid on the redials. Thank you very much, as always, I am grateful for any opinions and thoughts you may have.


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## Odessa200

AaParker said:


> Hello, I know that this version does have some redials associated with it, but what are your thoughts on this Volna? I'm thinking it may be correct? The "wave" above Volna is broken and it is solid on the redials. Thank you very much, as always, I am grateful for any opinions and thoughts you may have.
> 
> View attachment 17121872
> 
> 
> View attachment 17121881
> 
> 
> View attachment 17121883


looks legit. This used to be mine (see attached) and it had an authentic dial just like your pick.


----------



## AaParker

Thank you very much @Odessa200 !


----------



## 979greenwich

Is that radium btw?


----------



## Odessa200

979greenwich said:


> Is that radium btw?


No


----------



## Supdany

Hello, what do you think of this Poljot de luxe 2209?


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> Hello, what do you think of this Poljot de luxe 2209?
> 
> View attachment 17124738
> 
> 
> View attachment 17124739
> 
> 
> View attachment 17124740


 I see no issues. Great watch


----------



## palletwheel

Supdany said:


> Hello, what do you think of this Poljot de luxe 2209?
> 
> View attachment 17124738
> 
> 
> View attachment 17124739
> 
> 
> View attachment 17124740


I can't quite tell from the photo, but is the second hand red? Be sure its gold. Some owners thought red second hands "improved" the look on many watches. Sometimes people strip the red laquer and try to return it back, with varying results so be careful. Crown is wrong IMHO, though lots of fun debate to be had on those.


----------



## Odessa200

I am sorry I did not notice the red seconds hand. Agree with @palletwheel that it should be golden.
The crown is ‘from the family’ of the crowns for these models. Here we disagree with @palletwheel: he is under opinion that some crowns were specifically for some dials exactly as listed in a catalog. The catalog has slight crown variation depending on dials. I am more lenient: I think that although the catalog shows specific combos in reality various crowns from the ‘family’ were used by the factory. Of course it is possible that they were replaced during a repair/service and watchmakers used ‘a family’ crown without trying to match a catalog. All possible.


----------



## Supdany

Odessa200 said:


> I am sorry I did not notice the red seconds hand. Agree with @palletwheel that it should be golden.


I have seen some mid 70s Luch 2209 with red second hands. So you think that late Poljot de luxe did not have the same think? I did not find 1973/74/75 Poljot de luxe catalogues.


----------



## Odessa200

Supdany said:


> I have seen some mid 70s Luch 2209 with red second hands. So you think that late Poljot de luxe did not have the same think? I did not find 1973/74/75 de Poljot luxe catalogues.


That is correct. And even you can find this is catalogs for Luch. But this design emerged a bit later in USSR and Poljot De Lux was no longer in production (while Luch was). But Soviet men loved it and many watchmakers were making extra ruble for offering to put a nice red seconds hand during service of Poljots. Also they got red Luch hands. This is why you can see so many such watches with red hand. Although this is not how the watch was released from the factory it does not make the watch less authentic imho. It is still a soviet watch that was very slightly modified in the 70s to look more modern.


----------



## Supdany

Thanks, it makes sense.


----------



## gp20

Happy new year to everyone  
New year, new doubts...


----------



## steros

I have a question about the Raketa Amphibia. The crown is quite special, screwed and also spring-loaded. But did the crown appear in different designs, both chromed and stainless? Or did it only appear in one version? From photos of other collectors examples I get the feeling that an original crown should be chromed brass, but I'm not sure.


----------

