# Saxonia Classic vs Calatrava 5196G



## Pisquare

Hello

I know this has been debated before but I am seeking fresh advice. Having a hard time deciding between Calatrava 5196G and the ALS Saxonia Classic. I have a thin wrist and hence anything bigger than 37mm is a no go. The two price points are very close so that is not much of help. I am leaning towards the 5196 but the wife feels strongly about the ALS. I have heard that the ALS drops value significantly post purchase so that's not a good feeling. I would like the watch to hold some value though it will not be my #1 criteria. 

This is would be my first step into the world of high end watches. 

Any thoughts?


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## drhr

Both beautiful watches, probably won't go wrong with either, comes down to preferred aesthetics in my mind (I don't factor in future value in my purchases), I would go for the Sax because the sub seconds dial is "closed", just something about the Patek's open sub dial leaves me underwhelmed/unimpressed visually, and you have that beautiful rear end of the Sax, regardless of choice/decision please, please come back to show us lots of pics and give us your impressions!!


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## sduford

Aesthetically I prefer the ALS, but as already noted, if resale value is a factor you should go with the PP.


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## MZhammer

Resale value can be either a detriment or a benefit, if you go preowned then you wont take a big hit on later resale and you can get a like new Saxonia for a much better price then use the excess funds saved towards a gift for the lady??


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## mpalmer

You cannot go wrong with either. Both are fantastic watches. Personally, I prefer the look of the Saxonia, prefer the movement finishing of Lange, and just am more taken by what Lange is doing in recent times compared to Patek. What you say of value retention is true. You might consider opting for a minty preowned Lange and capitalize on it...


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## Pisquare

That is a great suggestion actually. Thanks.


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## Pisquare

MZhammer said:


> Resale value can be either a detriment or a benefit, if you go preowned then you wont take a big hit on later resale and you can get a like new Saxonia for a much better price then use the excess funds saved towards a gift for the lady??


haha. Makes sense. Cannot deny that, but in my case I am just catching up with the missus who is miles ahead in terms of her watch collection.


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## reuven

I would not think about the resale value, just because they have different prices to start with. The ALS is just a little bit better priced than the PP. Depending on where you live, you can save like 2000 Euro when buying a new watch - so your PP is never gonna be that much better in terms of resale to be 2000 Bucks better [thinking that you will eventually wear this piece your entire life).

With that beeing said, i would go for the PP. Even if i like ALS even more, i think in terms of simple pieces, PP just got it right. Its so classy and elegant, while ALS is a little bit more casual (yes, even if we are talking the Saxonia). If you would consider, say, the Lange 1, i would very well tell you to go for the ALS.

If a elegant, small, lifetime watch is what you want, i would always go with the PP.

I have tried both and liked the PP definately more.
If you value a nice movment, go with the ALS tho, because with the 5196, you are not going to see one.


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## Pisquare

Let's say I have a fascination with the PP brand. Is there any watch similar in design and pricing to the 5196 that you would suggest instead?


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## Pisquare

And in terms of price, which is the best place to buy this from? I was told that Europe is definitely cheaper but seems I was misinformed. For Patek, I have broadly checked around the prices in Hong Kong (where I live), London, Tokyo, Singapore, Berlin and Rotterdam (!!!) but the price differentials are insignificant.


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## PP-JLC-VC Guy

Pisquare said:


> Let's say I have a fascination with the PP brand. Is there any watch similar in design and pricing to the 5196 that you would suggest instead?


I have owned the PP5127J and traded it towards my ALS TimeZone. It is the one watch I truly have sellers remorse over. I like the design and the stylish crown guards in gold. I am thinking of buying the watch back from the purchaser. In my mind, it is the most classic and elegant PP Automatic Calatrava made, which has appreciated over time, and is currently holding its value well.


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## dantan

Buy the Watch that you prefer! Saxonia, for me. Don't think too much about the resale value! This purchase should be a purchase for life!


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## IveBeenMoved

Pisquare, Watchtime Magazine did a comparison between the Calatrava and the Saxonia about 2-3 years ago. It was an excellent article. I seem to recall they made the article freely available online about a year after the printed article was released. A quick check now shows they charge $2 for it - apparently it has been updated. They tease you a little by publishing the first quarter of the article online.

I don't think ALS go down in value. From an investment point of view, ALS do raise their prices regularly. I had the chance to buy a Saxonia Annual Calendar in the low-40k (AUD) price range two years ago, but chose not to because I did not want to spend that much on a watch. I have seen the price go up and up. Every time I check with the AD, the price has moved up again. Last time I checked, it was ~$57k (AUD).

So, if nothing else, your ALS should hold its price in the second hand market. The only problem may be to find a buyer at the price point you want to sell at. With Patek, there will always be a buyer.

As for similar alternatives, three other German brands spring to mind:
(1) Moritz Grossman
(2) Hentschel
(3) Dornbluth and Sohn



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Pisquare

I see your point but I am not entirely sold on any particular PP in my budget. Don't get me wrong- they have time pieces which is truly Grail worthy, but I am not aiming that high just yet. To be very very honest though, I am struggling to find a single message with PP which is probably a function of their being around for centuries. So I think I'll go with ALS for a few reasons.

First, like pointed out earlier by someone it has all design bases meaningful to me covered- the front, back, hands, everything. Second, it costs a lot less. Third, it is a smaller size, which fits my wrist better. And lastly, I am not really hitting something 20k+ that the value diminishing is hugely material. I find that the discounts on the PP are fairly tight (probably cartelized here in Hong Kong) but those on the ALS still significant.

That said, I am still undecided.



PP-JLC-VC Guy said:


> I have owned the PP5127J and traded it towards my ALS TimeZone. It is the one watch I truly have sellers remorse over. I like the design and the stylish crown guards in gold. I am thinking of buying the watch back from the purchaser. In my mind, it is the most classic and elegant PP Automatic Calatrava made, which has appreciated over time, and is currently holding its value well.


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## Pisquare

Yes, its great piece... But inconclusive 

thanks is for the suggestions though. Yes, I agree, the more expensive ALS watches, say the 1815, the Richard Lange etc are extremely compelling.



IveBeenMoved said:


> Pisquare, Watchtime Magazine did a comparison between the Calatrava and the Saxonia about 2-3 years ago. It was an excellent article. I seem to recall they made the article freely available online about a year after the printed article was released. A quick check now shows they charge $2 for it - apparently it has been updated. They tease you a little by publishing the first quarter of the article online.
> 
> I don't think ALS go down in value. From an investment point of view, ALS do raise their prices regularly. I had the chance to buy a Saxonia Annual Calendar in the low-40k (AUD) price range two years ago, but chose not to because I did not want to spend that much on a watch. I have seen the price go up and up. Every time I check with the AD, the price has moved up again. Last time I checked, it was ~$57k (AUD).
> 
> So, if nothing else, your ALS should hold its price in the second hand market. The only problem may be to find a buyer at the price point you want to sell at. With Patek, there will always be a buyer.
> 
> As for similar alternatives, three other German brands spring to mind:
> (1) Moritz Grossman
> (2) Hentschel
> (3) Dornbluth and Sohn
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## IveBeenMoved

I should have added that of the three suggestions, Moritz Grossman appears closest to ALS with its decorated movement. It's not as highly decorated as ALS, but IMHO more so and better than the other two. I suggested the three because they all produce models with classic dials like the Saxonia and Calatrava. The MG's price is not that far off ALS and PP's either.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## malarky_hk

Buy what your heart says. Not what you think you might be able to resell it for the future. If you don't really love the piece you're wearing then what's the point. 

That said, I'd go with the Lange.


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## reuven

I would not go to Europe to buy a watch. I would say asia or Us. But dont know much about coustoms.


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## carpentk37

Are you planning on selling it in some time? If not, ALS. If so, pre-owned ALS. I'm guilty of turning a good portion of my collection over. I try to buy estate (pre owned) pieces with box and papers from AD's. But, for rare birds such as limited edition watches I'm forced to go new.


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## maikeru

reuven said:


> I would not go to Europe to buy a watch. I would say asia or Us. But dont know much about coustoms.


Asia, you can try Japan, HK and Singapore. HK has no VAT. Singapore VAT is at 7% but as a tourist you can get 5.5% back. In Japan, you can get VAT refund of 8%.


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## Pisquare

Thanks a lot guys. I waited for a bit, looked around and then found something that truly sang to me. PP 5146G 001. My AD was able to procure a piece in original packing for me (as opposed to a display piece) which just made a bit more emotional nudge. Pics to follow.


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## bowxser

i'd go w/ Calatrava. PP will hold value more.


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## Emospence

Pisquare said:


> Thanks a lot guys. I waited for a bit, looked around and then found something that truly sang to me. PP 5146G 001. My AD was able to procure a piece in original packing for me (as opposed to a display piece) which just made a bit more emotional nudge. Pics to follow.


Was gonna give the Lange a vote based on aesthetics..

Is it here yet?


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## jtruman

I would personally get the Calatrava


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## cheesydude

not an easy choice- they both rate the same in terms of looks...i think it really goes to which brand you associate yourself wiht more


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## Pisquare

Yes, I picked it up a few weeks back and wear it almost everyday. It's exquisite and I'm glad I waited and decided to go for a watch that I needed no second opinion on. Now I just have to wait and work and save for 10 years in the hope that I come across a Simplicity if and when it resumes manufacture. Hmm... May be a Richard Lange as well... Just kidding.



Emospence said:


> Was gonna give the Lange a vote based on aesthetics..
> 
> Is it here yet?


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## hebhsteve

Calatrava for me. Lange 1 is their much more interesting watch.


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## Emospence

Pictures?!



Pisquare said:


> Yes, I picked it up a few weeks back and wear it almost everyday. It's exquisite and I'm glad I waited and decided to go for a watch that I needed no second opinion on. Now I just have to wait and work and save for 10 years in the hope that I come across a Simplicity if and when it resumes manufacture. Hmm... May be a Richard Lange as well... Just kidding.


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## stiggity

I only like the breguetnumeral calatrava - saxonia all the way otherwise


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## stiggity

The new saxonia at under 15k is an unbelievable value proposition relative to PP


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