# How Long Since January 29, 2009 9:36:22 AM MST???



## roadkingrider (Jan 22, 2008)

That is the date and time that I received confirmation for my Stage 1 Plank order for one of Bill's new _*Kingston*_ watches. Seems like an awful long time to wait!!!

I really hope that Bill is getting close and an update would really be _*NICE!!!

*_:thanks


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## gerard88t (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm in the same boat and I think it's beating a dead horse to ask about updates. Last blog entry that had Kingston content said Yao was going to fit parts together over the Labor day holiday. I would have thought with the new hires like Winnie, it was going to be easier to drop a quick update online. I was wrong, so I just told Winnie to email me when my order ships.


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## abuemily (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm in the same boat, and frankly, I'm pretty fed up with the whole lack of communication on this, other than invoices. I'm certain this will be my last MKII purchase.


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## Docwein (Feb 11, 2006)

*The wait is getting to the point of ridiculous.............*

I saw the Kingston prototype last September in NYC. I think we should receive an update. What the hell is going on?


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## formula100 (Jun 10, 2008)

I too am somewhat disappointed. I think until I get my Kingston in hand I am not going to buy another watch from MKII. I know patience is needed for a pre-order but this is just too long for me. I am probably not going to pre-order another one. Life's too short.

Here's to hoping we hear some god news soon.

Charles


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## roadkingrider (Jan 22, 2008)

I am not trying to throw gasoline on this fire but.................

From and including: *Thursday, January 29, 2009*
To, but *not* including : *Wednesday, September 15, 2010*
It is 594 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date
Or 1 year, 7 months, 17 days excluding the end date
594 days can be converted to one of these units:

51,321,600 seconds
855,360 minutes 
14,256 hours 
84 weeks (rounded down)o|


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## MatKid152 (Dec 15, 2008)

I too submitted my order on 1/29/2009, received my confirmation on 2/2/2009. At this point I've given up. I'm hoping I get a watch eventually, that its well made, and that I like it. There's been more than a few comments in defense of MKII's handling of this project, which I find astounding. Considering the original eta was 4th quarter 2009, we're fast approaching 100% behind schedule, with little to no communication, and plank owners have paid in full. This is without a doubt one of if not the worst experience I've had buying something, anything. As nice as MKII watches look and apparently are in person, I'm hard pressed to believe I will purchase from them again.

Any bets on when we'll get the spare kits parts, never mind the watch?


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

Guys - if you don't like it, put your money where your mouth is and sell your order to someone else who has patience. Spouting off on a board accomplishes nothing and only works up others. Will that make the orders be produced any quicker? I seriously doubt it. 

Tired of waiting? Feeling "cheated"? Mistreated? Start a "my spot for sale" thread.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

I think a word or two is appropriate.

First of all, a lot of delays are not something that Bill can control. Lead times for parts is bad enough, but lead times for movements are totally off the wall. Here you have only one choice: ETA or nothing. Bill has no control whatsoever about when and what is delivered, and he is not alone in this boat. Virtually all small manufacturers face the same situation.

The only way around it is not to announce watches until you've built them, and then there is no way to customize them. Counter to the whole point, right?

It's enormously frustrating, especially for the watchmakers. I know of at least one watch project that has failed because movements were simply unavailable except at a price point that meant the watch couldn't be sold at a reasonable price. This is where the Swiss-mandated ETA monopoly hits all of us watch collectors and fans hard, like getting walloped with a dead fish in the face.

If you have an issue, take it up with Bill. Y'all know that he goes out of his way to accommodate you, but the delays here are not his doing.

JohnF


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## tomr (Mar 28, 2009)

I am in Phase 2, and have also paid in full; and while I sympathize with Bill's difficulties in dealing with ETA, he should have factored this in when providing time estimates. But how many would have signed up in January, 2009, if they were told that it might take close to two years to receive the watch? As much as the continued delays have been frustrating, my real disappointment has been with the lack of communication. I have sent no less than three emails to Bill in the past year inquiring about various details and specifications without any response. 

I, as some others have stated, am unlikely to participate in another pre-order venture; and, depending on how much longer the delay continues, may consider selling my place, as I am getting too old to wait a year (or two) for a watch, and have other makes and models I have been considering. I will also add, though, that if I do decide to sell my spot I will have to add a premium to the price for my time and inconvenience.


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## Ozy (Aug 10, 2009)

tomr said:


> I will also add, though, that if I do decide to sell my spot I will have to add a premium to the price for my time and inconvenience.


Oh, but can a monetary value be placed on such a harrowing experience? - you poor soul, its a wonder you dont just cease to get up in the morning.

:roll::-x


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## tomr (Mar 28, 2009)

"Harrowing experience" ? - hardly. Just another one of life's aggravations. Sort of like your post. 

Just for further comparison and justification: I have had custom guitars, bamboo fly rods, guns and knives made to order over the years, many of these craftsmen had lengthy waiting lists, but with each and every one, the maker kept me informed and answered EVERY inquiry I sent. There is no excuse for poor customer communication.


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## Rob T (Jan 26, 2009)

Ozy said:


> Oh, but can a monetary value be placed on such a harrowing experience? - you poor soul, its a wonder you dont just cease to get up in the morning.
> 
> :roll::-x


Ha! Well said, thanks for that Ozy! Seems some folks may have lost a little -- um -- perspective on the whole thing? Lets just stay calm and carry on, shall we.


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## tomr (Mar 28, 2009)

Rob T said:


> Ha! Well said, thanks for that Ozy! Seems some folks may have lost a little -- um -- perspective on the whole thing? Lets just stay calm and carry on, shall we.


Pray tell, Mr. "stay calm and carry on", what exactly is the perspective on the whole thing? It is apparently quite evident that one cannot voice any displeasure with MKll delays or lack of communication without becoming the target of ridicule.


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## LAPD (Feb 3, 2010)

Ozy said:


> Oh, but can a monetary value be placed on such a harrowing experience? - you poor soul, its a wonder you dont just cease to get up in the morning.
> 
> :roll::-x


If you take into consideration the foresight, diligence of ordering after reading all the promised specifications, time spent waiting, plus the rare opportunity that someone could have of being able to still buy a spot on this KINGSTON proyect now.

This is an amazing opportunity in itself, as I only know of one person wanting to sell their KINGSTON order and that has been spoken for long ago already.

I would be asking for X3 the price. Its a one of a kind watch, never to be repeated, its like you said done, completed, fully assembled, no wait time except for shipping. 
It only makes sense you have to sell it for more.

I would not be expecting it to be cheap either, considering the old originals go for $10,000 $14,000. I would think this watch could fetch a fairly high price.

Think of the number of KINGSTON threads and hits, reads and replies they have had, take this as a measure of interest and you have your self a modern classic.


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## Ozy (Aug 10, 2009)

LAPD said:


> If you take into consideration the foresight, diligence of ordering after reading all the promised specifications, time spent waiting, plus the rare opportunity that someone could have of being able to still buy a spot on this KINGSTON proyect now.


Then for the very reason you listed above, those that have been fortunate enough to participate should have the patientce and foresight to see it through.

The whole over entitled "somebody p*ssed in my weeties and they're going to pay" mentality gets a little old for those people like Bill Yao who are reliant on so much to put together a product worth of such acclaim.


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## Quartersawn (Nov 20, 2008)

This forum has been a complete snoozer lately.

Honestly, I am thankful for this thread. It is the most entertaining thing posted here in a month, lol. 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled bickering. :-!


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## Recht (May 8, 2006)

Since the beginning I've seen drawings, talked about design, I've seen pics of parts, dials cases, crowns, bezels, gave opinions about design, I've seen and touched a prototype at a get-together, took pictures, saw more pictures, had an occasional update here and there. It has been pure horological foreplay and I am enjoying it.
Good things come to those who wait. It is almost time.


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## buckman (Oct 18, 2009)

k7lro said:


> Guys - if you don't like it, put your money where your mouth is and sell your order to someone else who has patience. Spouting off on a board accomplishes nothing and only works up others. Will that make the orders be produced any quicker? I seriously doubt it.
> 
> Tired of waiting? Feeling "cheated"? Mistreated? Start a "my spot for sale" thread.


You're kidding-right? we've waited almost a year since placing our orders and you really think some of us who are unhappy with MK ll customer communication are going to sell after waiting this long? Out of 100 plank owners, I'd like to see the percentage of people who are happy with the whole Kingston project right about now. Bah.


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## Ozy (Aug 10, 2009)

buckman said:


> you're kidding-right? we've waited almost a year since placing our orders and you really think some of us who are unhappy with the MK ll customer communication are going to sell after waiting this long?


Ahhh, no he wasnt kidding, and yes some of you apparently had paid consideration to the idea.



tomr said:


> I, as some others have stated, am unlikely to participate in another pre-order venture; and, depending on how much longer the delay continues, may consider selling my place, as I am getting too old to wait a year (or two) for a watch, and have other makes and models I have been considering. I will also add, though, that if I do decide to sell my spot I will have to add a premium to the price for my time and inconvenience.


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## buckman (Oct 18, 2009)

Why does it seem to many of us an impossibility of seeing the two different lumes photographed clearly side by side on the sample watches so we could have made a decision BEFORE we ordered. Those sample watches have been around for over a year; why can't we see one of the samples on the bracelet? 


Don't worry-be happy


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## bob m (Apr 2, 2010)

funny thing is that this forum has been around for many years..prior to the kingston. And on this forum, prior to the kingston there were many posts complaining about delays and lack of communication, yet people still jumped at the chance for a kingston plank..>What were they thinking? Would their watch buying experience suddenly be different? I cant wait for the numerous omega smp/project 300 plank owners (if this actually happens) to chime in a few years from now, wondering "where is my communicaiton, where are my emails from bill" despite being forewarned about Bills practices. Its years from when you put your $ down not months and if you think differently, then you need to get a clue rake and search this very forum that you are reading now. 

Just buy one of bills watches used from the forum. They do come up from time to time but are gone in hours. There is a reason for this...

And yes there will be project 300 people complaining about this same method or lack thereof...


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## wielingab (Feb 16, 2006)

Hi,

I read this post and all the replies with mixed feelings. A couple of years ago I ordered the Stingray and it took 6 months to be delivered.

Of course it's seems nothing comparing to almost 2 years..

But the moment it arrived all was forgoting and a truly beautiful watch was sitting on my wrist.

And I mean a beautiful watch. Not even Rolex, Omega or Breitiling (to nam a vew) can compete in the finnished quality of the watch.

Now 3 years later, the bezel stil feels like new, the "play" is almost non (comparing to my Seamaster, which already had a service). The finish is like new.

I just wrote this down, to give people some positive thoughts. When you have the watch, you know you have a very special piece, no one alse has (or had to wait for so long also).

Bart


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## formula100 (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm trying to be positive because I feel confident the watch will be nice no doubt but I think for me anyway this type of wait is too long. 
I do wonder what most people would find acceptable. I think maybe for me 1 year is the most I would be prepared to tie my funds up.


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## LAPD (Feb 3, 2010)

Hi Guys and Gals,

It took me 9 months to get my PARADIVE, I have been wearing it every day since. What can I say, It was def. worth the wait. Sometimes I look at it and don't even look at the time.

I have 3 friends from work looking at the MKII web site all the time now with one thinking of pulling the trigger on a PARADIVE for himself.

I know and everybody here should know its a waiting game. Some are just better at playing than others. And you know what its their right to pull out if they wish.

MKII is not for everyone. (I wouldn't want it to be (LOTR my precious))

For me, I'm young with a bit of cash and don't mind the wait, but I'm sure other people have different views and I respect that. Whilst I waited for my PARADIVE I did not send Bill any emails asking for updates or "emergency" last minute change of mind lume colour.;-) I just let it be, I knew I was in good hands after all the positive feedback on this forum and just watching his company grow.

My wife asked me are you sure you are going to get this watch, and I always just said "Yeah it just takes time he is building it" 
This is my first MKII.
I am now patiently waiting for 2 more KINGSTON and Project 300.

I feel for Bill as I know he tries hard to please his customers, but if ETA (SWATCH Group) have a monopoly on movements and delay shipments what can we do, just wait, I really don't see the point of pressuring Bill to pressure ETA who really don't want to sell to the little people.

There has been talk in this forum about watch companies switching from ETA to Unitas, Sea-Gull and Soprod movements. This would bring about cheaper watches, faster turn around time, but then people would say Ahh thats not a Swiss watch and that would just upset every one, not to mention that some of these movements are very good.

I think people need more information so they can make better choices when buying a watch. I'm Happy with mine.


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

The Kingston will be a fantastic watch and highly desirable amongst those who know MK II. The fact that its very late is frustrating and for some an off putting experience for future pre-order projects and I'm sure once the watch arrives the wait will be forgotten...keep the faith

However the ignorance towards the customers' requests and the sheer poverty of feedback or updates is inexcusable. It only takes 2 minutes to log onto the forum and let us know whats happening...I think this is all we really want. We all want Bill to be spending time working on the watches, but spending a couple of minutes now and again to post on the forum would go a long way to keeping the MK II newbies in the faith


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

I think its hard for people to be patient, in general. Then, when a few get stirred up, it kinda' works everyone else up into a froth, and that's when it's easy for people to lose - as was said before in this thread - "perspective".

How long since January 29, 2009? Well, someone was kind enough to break it down to minutes and seconds That would, in fact, be "gasoline on the fire" for those that are already feeling impatient. But not me, because while I ORDERED it on 1/29/09, I KNEW that I was not just ordering a watch, but participating in the design and the build of a unique timepiece. 

One of my very first posts on the Kingston threads stated that I wanted to be in on this one because I was quite sure it was a customer-collaborative design process unique not only to watch-building, but virtually unheard of in almost any type of semi-custom manufacturing, including cars, guns, guitars, knives, audio equipment and more.

I also stated that I was quite sure it wouldn't be repeated, and I suspect that may still be true. I think that - especially after reading some of the negative threads on this forum over the months, Bill would be well-advised to simply post "OK, folks, here's the new SM300 homage, here's the specs, here's the pics, here's the price, and here's the link to the ordering page". 

If Bill had done that with the Kingston, then most of us would only be about 8-12 months into the wait for our watches: a long time, but not excessive for semi-custom. But if you are all going to count the time since January 2009, make sure you allow for OUR endless debates about lume color and brightness, matte or glossy, gilt or no gilt, 36mm? 38mm?? 40mm?? Too big. Too small. Bracelet taper. Crown size. Nato Band color. The list goes ON....

The perspective should allow for the fact that this process would have gone a lot quicker if we all were kept OUT of the loop by MKII. But we were included, and we - collectively - will look at our watch 20 years from now, forgetting (almost) all the delays. But - when you give it to your son or grandson - you'll say "Ya' know, this is a special watch that I had made for me, and me a bunch of other watch enthuiasts helped to design it". That's a long time from now. but that - by definition - is "perspective".

For all practical purposes, the delays ARE maddening and a little griping about lack of communication IS in order. But beyond that, keep in mind that you've got a really cool watch coming your way. Its hard to say when NOW because of QC and supplier issues, which truly ARE our of MKII's control. But if IS coming, and if you are one of the lucky 300, YOUR IN. Your on the list. A year ago, 100 of you couldn't even say THAT.

That's all. My $0.02.


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

I don't hear anyone complaining about the delays, or about the much longer than expected lead time. Most of these are the result of things outside of Bill's control.

What everyone is complaining about is ENTIRELY within Bill's control: simply communication with the folks that have given him roughly $187,000 on a sight unseen product. 

There's simply no defense for his continued and willful refusal to spend five minutes a week to log on here and post a brief update on the Kingston. It can only be explained by hubris.


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

buckman said:


> You're kidding-right? we've waited almost a year since placing our orders and you really think some of us who are unhappy with MK ll customer communication are going to sell after waiting this long? Out of 100 plank owners, I'd like to see the percentage of people who are happy with the whole Kingston project right about now. Bah.


You obviously overestimate my patience. Rather than ..... and moan on a public forum, I took matters into my own hands. ;-)

Since I made my decision, I've added two automatics and one higher end quartz to my modest collection. Oh, I also won a MKII in the military watch forum's Christmas raffle so that helped to motivate my decision.

No regrets - nada - in regards to the direction that I've taken and guess what, I still admire, respect, etc Bill and his efforts. One long project doesn't spoil the whole bunch baby.



Ozy said:


> Ahhh, no he wasnt kidding, and yes some of you apparently had paid consideration to the idea.


:-x


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## George Washington (Mar 10, 2010)

k7lro said:


> Guys - if you don't like it, put your money where your mouth is and sell your order to someone else who has patience. Spouting off on a board accomplishes nothing and only works up others. Will that make the orders be produced any quicker? I seriously doubt it.
> 
> Tired of waiting? Feeling "cheated"? Mistreated? Start a "my spot for sale" thread.


 Essentially you're figuring if you don't like the way this is being handled then dump your purchased position and leave ? Interesting business philosophy. Certain to draw back old customers and inspire new ones. G.W.


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## MatKid152 (Dec 15, 2008)

tomr said:


> Pray tell, Mr. "stay calm and carry on", what exactly is the perspective on the whole thing? It is apparently quite evident that one cannot voice any displeasure with MKll delays or lack of communication without becoming the target of ridicule.


Well said tomr. It does indeed appear free speech regarding MKII is not allowed without being harassed and hounded to give up your spot. My biggest complaint is the customer service or complete lack there of. I too have sent a number of emails over the last 20+months with no response. There is no excuse for not responding, and certainly not for failing to provide imaging and information necessary to make an educated choice when ordering.

We're all well aware that getting movements from ETA can be trying at best. However Bill posted he had the movements more than a year ago....


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## MatKid152 (Dec 15, 2008)

Ozy said:


> Then for the very reason you listed above, those that have been fortunate enough to participate should have the patientce and foresight to see it through.
> 
> The whole over entitled "somebody p*ssed in my weeties and they're going to pay" mentality gets a little old for those people like Bill Yao who are reliant on so much to put together a product worth of such acclaim.


Frustration at the Kingston being 100% over the original estimated delivery date hardly qualifies as over entitled. The next time I accept a job I'll take twice as long to do it as quoted and then tell the customer they're "over entitled" when I deliver in twice the time, I'm sure that will go over well...


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

George Washington said:


> Essentially you're figuring if you don't like the way this is being handled then dump your purchased position and leave ? Interesting business philosophy. Certain to draw back old customers and inspire new ones. G.W.


I wouldn't say I dumped my position - it was a calculated move that made someone else very, very happy. Win/win.

As long as Bill produces quality watches at certain price points, I suspect he has little to fear. It wouldn't be the first time success & growth has caused delivery issues for a small businessman.

As a customer, I voted with my feet with this model but I knew that there would be delays when I signed up.

Wait it out - congrats on having more patience than me - I hope that you love your watch and wear it in great health!


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## abuemily (Feb 21, 2008)

Yeah, the quality of Bill's pieces is pretty good, but I don't necessarily believe beyond what one pays for them. I've had three of Bill's pieces and have sold all of them as they just didn't really speak to me (I'm sure I'm in the minority here, just MO). I am a "plank owner", using the term owner in the loosest of terms, as I am not terribly confident we'll see it any time soon.

I think it's possibly just a case of trying to do too many projects without the resources to carry them through in any reasonable time frame. I think most of the other boutique watchmakers here on the forum have realized the hard feelings created when projects drag on long beyond their promised--and in many cases--reasonable timelines. Bill seems to be unique now in asking for money to develop these projects--I think this coupled with the what seem to have become routine and ever lengthier delays are what engenders the unhappiness. That and being absolutely awful in keeping the client base informed. If ever he has any aspirations of expanding out of the forum market he will have to improve his customer response time. My .02


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## kkwpk (Mar 3, 2006)

I am waiting since april 09 and I dont have any problems. While purchasing I knew that it was going to be a special watch for "small" money. I am patient and I know taht the watch will be perfect.


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

kkwpk said:


> I am waiting since april 09 and I dont have any problems. While purchasing I knew that it was going to be a special watch for "small" money. I am patient and I know taht the watch will be perfect.


Good man - great attitude. :-!


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

It seems people often declare in this forum how Bill should or should not run his business. But it is his prerogative. And so far, he has been very successful.

He has no obligation to run things this way or that.


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

The complete lack of communication makes me concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 he's collected without delivering even pictures of protos buyers have asked for. Will any of you "wait and be quiet doing it" folks care to guarantee me my full payment?


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

namor said:


> The complete lack of communication makes me concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 he's collected without delivering even pictures of protos buyers have asked for. Will any of you "wait and be quiet doing it" folks care to guarantee me my full payment?


Your concern is your own, I have purchased three watches from Bill, 2 of them were customs and I did have a long wait for them. I do appreciate the fact that Bill is unique in this respect, he personally assembles all his customs, and many of his special editions, he is not merely a middleman that unpacks watches that have come in from an assembler and ships them out. He is unfortunately essentially a one man show. The fact that he assembles the watches and allows customization makes for long waits, no other brand at this price point has the owner hand assembling custom and special edition watches. Could he be more communicative, absolutely but unfortunately with his work load thats difficult. I think that you have two options either wait it out or sell your plank.


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

namor said:


> The complete lack of communication makes me concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 he's collected without delivering even pictures of protos buyers have asked for. Will any of you "wait and be quiet doing it" folks care to guarantee me my full payment?


I've seen the watch prototypes, I've waited as long as anybody, and I've met the man and looked him in the eyes.

The answer to your question is: Yes.


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## Rob T (Jan 26, 2009)

tomr said:


> Pray tell, Mr. "stay calm and carry on", what exactly is the perspective on the whole thing? It is apparently quite evident that one cannot voice any displeasure with MKll delays or lack of communication without becoming the target of ridicule.


Ouch! But O.K., I'll respond nicely.

Well I see it as a project, and not just a watch. A collabrotive process that allows the "group" to be part of the design, and even once decisions are made, to be given a wide range or options on the delivered product. Gilt dial, or no, with date window or without, even the type of lume or bezel is up to you. That's a lot of input and choice that no other watch manufacturer out there comes anywhere near offering. The trade-off is though, that you may still not get everything you want, and the process may take longer than anyone expected. Custom watch making such as this can be thought of as a cottage industry. But my "perspective" on it is that is a reasonable trade-off, and the patience required is worth the value of the process. Others may have a different opinion, and there are many other vendors and brands of watch that can offer instant gratification. Maybe I am just drinking the Koolaid, but I am fine with just staying relaxed, and perhaps even recognizing anticipation is half the fun (after all it really should be fun).

Rob.


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

cpotters said:


> I've seen the watch prototypes, I've waited as long as anybody, and I've met the man and looked him in the eyes.
> 
> The answer to your question is: Yes.


You don't have to do that. There are options.



namor said:


> The complete lack of communication makes me concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 he's collected without delivering even pictures of protos buyers have asked for. Will any of you "wait and be quiet doing it" folks care to guarantee me my full payment?


No ridicule intended - you have options. :-!


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

namor said:


> The complete lack of communication makes me concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 he's collected without delivering even pictures of protos buyers have asked for. Will any of you "wait and be quiet doing it" folks care to guarantee me my full payment?


I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you actually concerned that you will not get your watch?

If so, don't worry, you will get your watch!

But if you don't want to risk it, you can sell your spot and probably make a big profit.


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## AR15fan (Feb 22, 2009)

Quit your crying and suck it up. You knew what you were getting into. I'm sure all the attitudes will change when you start receiving your watches!


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

austinnh said:


> I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you actually concerned that you will not get your watch?


That is precisely what he said: "concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 collected" and "will any of you...guarantee me my full payment", which he could recoup if he simply sold his spot to someone else ("you have options").

When you get past the rhetoric and words of frustration about delays (all legitimate complaints on this thread) this is someone saying that they REALLY think that these watches may not be coming AND that the person entrusted with their money to make them will not make him whole if that were to happen. This was not about selling their spot to someone else, but rather saying that there would be no spot to sell.

As one of the " 'wait and be quiet doing it' folks" I felt that I could - in this one case - step up to the plate and backstop a promise made by somebody else. That's how much faith I have in this project, the community of collectors and enthusiasts that I've met here in the last 2 years, and the man behind the project and his integrity.

My faith may be misplaced and I could be all wrong, but i've spent my life and built a career on relying in my instincts about people, so I'm willing to take a shot. Its called "putting your money where your mouth is", and I do it all the time!


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## justsellbrgs (Jan 31, 2008)

cpotters said:


> That is precisely what he said: "concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 collected" and "will any of you...guarantee me my full payment", which he could recoup if he simply sold his spot to someone else ("you have options").
> 
> When you get past the rhetoric and words of frustration about delays (all legitimate complaints on this thread) this is someone saying that they REALLY think that these watches may not be coming AND that the person entrusted with their money to make them will not make him whole if that were to happen. This was not about selling their spot to someone else, but rather saying that there would be no spot to sell.
> 
> ...


Charlie.....IIRC austin was in Philly with us for the GTG..... he shook Bill's hand like the rest of us and knows Bill is a stand up guy. The watches will deliver, no worries.

Delays are related to the suppliers. Anyone in manufacturing right now knows most in the world are behind, I am sure watch components fall in this group.

Bill will have to respond to lack of updates. I think he is working on other items and doesn't want to post inaccurate updates, so he chooses to only post when he knows for sure.

I'm anxious for delivery as well.... every time I get a little itchy I am reminded by my MKII forum friend that has two Kingstons on order to simmer down.
I'm also glad I preordered because I am guaranteed a watch and don't have the $$$ if I had to pay for it now....LOL.


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

I waited fourteen months before I received my Tornek Rayville. And the other (nine?) owners are still waiting.

I'm currently wearing the TR and when I look at this watch, I think Bill has done a tremendous job: the finish is awesome; I think that Bill picked up the ball where Blancpain themselves dropped it. Quality wise, the TR looks and feels like a watch from the Blancpain collection ( but without the marketing machine behind the brand). This gives me a lot of confidence about the Kingston's quality. 
And yes, fourteen months for producing 10 TR watches is a very, very long time indeed. But, considering the MKII 'one man band' company strategy added to the supplier problems, fourteen months is not too long! I can assure you: Bill delivers! No doubt.

Menno


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

justsellbrgs said:


> Charlie.....IIRC austin was in Philly with us for the GTG..... he shook Bill's hand like the rest of us and knows Bill is a stand up guy. The watches will deliver, no worries.


All true :-!


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

cpotters said:


> That is precisely what he said: "concerned about my little piece of the $187,000 collected" and "will any of you...guarantee me my full payment", which he could recoup if he simply sold his spot to someone else ("you have options").
> 
> When you get past the rhetoric and words of frustration about delays (all legitimate complaints on this thread) this is someone saying that they REALLY think that these watches may not be coming AND that the person entrusted with their money to make them will not make him whole if that were to happen. This was not about selling their spot to someone else, but rather saying that there would be no spot to sell.
> 
> ...


Thank you - you have summarized my concern precisely.


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## Dent99 (Jun 25, 2008)

Getting the watch sooner rather than later is of course desirable for everyone however, estimated ship dates are exactly that: estimates.

Communication could be better, no argument there, but what can really be said? "It will probably be ready by ______" then when that date passes people will be up in arms again. What's the good in that? Maybe nothing has changed dramatically since the last update? Either way I'd rather Bill updated us when he has something concrete to tell us (and I'm sure he will - afterall why wouldn't he?) rather than throw a placebic bone to pacify the angry mob.

Maybe its worth remembering that even large watch companies with their own publicity departments etc. can take weeks upon weeks to respond to customer enquiries.

I got in just before the 2nd-stage plank orders closed, so have been waiting since May '09. I have never owned a MKII product or dealt with Bill before but I am not pulling my hair out over the ongoing delays. Frankly I find it strange that people are. Surely every customer realised this was not an instant gratification purchase...

Additionally it seems many are underestimating the logistics of making multiple watches of several models when there is literally one person doing all the work. From what I gathered before ordering, Bill is passionate about his craft and is a stickler for getting things right, and that is what is important at the end of the day. This is a custom project where customers participated throughout. Large manufacturers have long lead times and problems with their products too, the only difference is they aren't gracious enough to let you participate and therefore when something goes wrong, you simply don't know about it. Its not in Bill's/MKII's best interest to delay any product. Its not deliberate, so give the man a break.


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

Very well stated. Excellent input.


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## George Washington (Mar 10, 2010)

AR15fan said:


> Quit your crying and suck it up. You knew what you were getting into. I'm sure all the attitudes will change when you start receiving your watches!


 Wonderful attitude toward your customer base. This will draw them in like flies. G.W.


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

Apparently I now have fewer "options" than before... Where did that thread go?


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

I suppose a mod deleted it. No worries - the point was made: lead, follow or get out of the way.... there no need for the excessive whining for any reason other than because you can.


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## George Washington (Mar 10, 2010)

k7lro said:


> I suppose a mod deleted it. No worries - the point was made: lead, follow or get out of the way.... there no need for the excessive whining for any reason other than because you can.


 Bill should clearly appoint you as head of customer relations. G.W.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Dent99 said:


> Getting the watch sooner rather than later is of course desirable for everyone however, estimated ship dates are exactly that: estimates.
> 
> Communication could be better, no argument there, but what can really be said? "It will probably be ready by ______" then when that date passes people will be up in arms again. What's the good in that? Maybe nothing has changed dramatically since the last update? Either way I'd rather Bill updated us when he has something concrete to tell us (and I'm sure he will - afterall why wouldn't he?) rather than throw a placebic bone to pacify the angry mob.
> 
> ...


Very well said. As for large watch companies, I have a Seiko Marine Master that has been in the New Jersey repair center since November of '09. It has two months left to be the year, that is just for a crown repair. About once every two weeks to a month I send them an email asking for the update, and mind you, I am dealing with the supervisor for this fix, and she gets back to me every so often. Now I am finally beginning to get frustrated. Just replace the crown tube and send it back! But I still sit here with no Marine Master.... And that is just a repair, not a custom watch.

This too is my first MKII purchase and I am being supremely patient about it because in the end, I know that I will have a high quality timepiece that is an homage of a watch that I (and most of us) cannot afford. Also, it is limited to 300 pieces with an almost complete parts kit (for most) at a price that is more than likely unheard of for a 300 piece limited edition watch. Most companies (Omega for example) put out a limited edition of 10,000 and charge you about 4 to 6 grand for the watch that has a similar ETA movement. And most limited editions are basically the same production watch with a different case back or dial or some small mod.

Just my two cents....

Rich


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## k7lro (Feb 12, 2006)

George Washington said:


> Bill should clearly appoint you as head of customer relations. G.W.


He can't afford me - but clearly, Bill needs to determine the best way to address his business model's issues. Not many one-man shops succeed past that one man.

In the same vein, I had an exchange with a "name brand" manufacturer/owner that's done to one owner who is quite elderly.

He has no successon plan & when he passes on, we'll lose a reasonably well-known brand. I hate to see that happen and buying this brand would be a good opportunity with someone w/ the right skills.


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

k7lro said:


> He can't afford me - but clearly, Bill needs to determine the best way to address his business model's issues. Not many one-man shops succeed past that one man.
> 
> In the same vein, I had an exchange with a "name brand" manufacturer/owner that's done to one owner who is quite elderly.
> 
> He has no successon plan & when he passes on, we'll lose a reasonably well-known brand. I hate to see that happen and buying this brand would be a good opportunity with someone w/ the right skills.


Care to share the brand? Am curious now.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

I'd guess Ollech & Wajs. Or Guinand.

JohnF


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## Artonthewrist (Apr 10, 2008)

Hang in there Bill










from carbon comes diamonds !!

Dan


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## Crispy B (Dec 14, 2009)

*Keen buyer for Kingston spot*

Will pay good money, on the proviso that you can keep your whiny, crybaby tears.

I wonder if we all didn't obsess over ETA movements and opt for comparable substitutes the bespoke watch industry would be more efficient. :roll: Assuming movement sourcing is the greatest bugbear, besides all the other dramas in realising all the custom-made parts...


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## hooyah22 (Sep 27, 2009)

As long as extra time leads to a more PERFECT watch because Bill is a perfectionist, I'm fine with that :-!


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)




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## GregoryD (Jan 31, 2009)

Everything about this has already been said, but I figured I would add my take. I've been supremely happy with the concept, design process, and final design of the Kingston. I think it's going to be a smashing watch. I think most of us do - that's why we're here. I'm less enthusiastic about the communication. We all knew going in that it would be a lengthly process fraught with delay, and that's fine. But communication has been lacking. And while I don't think it's right to blame Bill for delays that are out of his control, I think using this forum as a means of expressing displeasure in the lack of communication is perfectly appropriate; it's a legitimate way for a customer to signal to a company that they are displeased so that the company might change/improve their behavior in the future. That seems like a useful feedback mechanism to me.


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## MonroeA (Oct 25, 2008)

GregoryD said:


> Everything about this has already been said, but I figured I would add my take. I've been supremely happy with the concept, design process, and final design of the Kingston. I think it's going to be a smashing watch. I think most of us do - that's why we're here. I'm less enthusiastic about the communication. We all knew going in that it would be a lengthly process fraught with delay, and that's fine. But communication has been lacking. And while I don't think it's right to blame Bill for delays that are out of his control, I think using this forum as a means of expressing displeasure in the lack of communication is perfectly appropriate; it's a legitimate way for a customer to signal to a company that they are displeased so that the company might change/improve their behavior in the future. That seems like a useful feedback mechanism to me.


:-!


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

"Keep Calm and Carry On"

I am printing this poster on photo paper, framing it, and hanging it on my wall!!!


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

GregoryD said:


> Everything about this has already been said, but I figured I would add my take. I've been supremely happy with the concept, design process, and final design of the Kingston. I think it's going to be a smashing watch. I think most of us do - that's why we're here. I'm less enthusiastic about the communication. We all knew going in that it would be a lengthly process fraught with delay, and that's fine. But communication has been lacking. And while I don't think it's right to blame Bill for delays that are out of his control, I think using this forum as a means of expressing displeasure in the lack of communication is perfectly appropriate; it's a legitimate way for a customer to signal to a company that they are displeased so that the company might change/improve their behavior in the future. That seems like a useful feedback mechanism to me.


|>

Did I miss Bill's announcement that the delays were due to Eta movements or is this a guess on our part? I don't see this on the blog.


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## abuemily (Feb 21, 2008)

*Re: Keen buyer for Kingston spot*



Crispy B said:


> Will pay good money, on the proviso that you can keep your whiny, crybaby tears.
> 
> I wonder if we all didn't obsess over ETA movements and opt for comparable substitutes the bespoke watch industry would be more efficient. :roll: Assuming movement sourcing is the greatest bugbear, besides all the other dramas in realising all the custom-made parts...


Never mind, just adds to the polemics.


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: Keen buyer for Kingston spot*



abuemily said:


> Never mind, just adds to the polemics.


And there's something wrong with that? :think:


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## Steve260 (Aug 25, 2007)

Great discourse on this thread!

As a plank owner, my Kingston will be my 6th MKII watch. Like everyone else, I have watched estimated-date after estimated-date come and go. At this point, I just try to forget about it - at some point, with little or no warning, the watch will eventually show up. It will be a great surprise when it does!

As a musician, I have seen other small, high-quality-boutique companies go down much the same route. The guitar and amplifier world is full of small companies like MKII. At some point, we just need to realize that companies like this will likely NEVER have short lead times, and will likely NEVER be able to predict delivery dates within any reasonable window, and will likely NEVER communicate frequently or accurately with customers awaiting delivery. To expect that they ever will have those qualities may be unreasonable. Those qualities are simply not in the "DNA" of the super-focused, almost maniacal artisans that found and operate the companies (like Bill/MKII). Small companies are also very vulnerable to the vagaries of dealing with suppliers many times their size. They survive, however, because folks like us understand that they build very special products, that are unavailable through traditional distribution channels.

Some of us keep trying to "change" MKII, hoping that the company will shorten lead times, predict delivery times accurately, and communicate status frequently. I'm just suggesting that if we have never really seen those attributes from MKII in the past, what makes us think we might see them in the future? What we HAVE seen in the past, and I certainly expect to see in the future, is an honest, dedicated artisan who always (eventually) comes through with very special watches that tend to be treasured by those with the patience to wait...

OK - so I hope to see my Kingston before Christmas! <grin>

Steve


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## SirRolf (Aug 15, 2009)

cpotters said:


> "Keep Calm and Carry On"
> 
> I am printing this poster on photo paper, framing it, and hanging it on my wall!!!


Not really posting on the thread topic, but had to give props to Blitz humor. 
That's a good one. Now make something with Lord Kitch.

-S.R.


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## Izzy (Mar 26, 2008)

Steve260 said:


> Great discourse on this thread!
> 
> As a plank owner, my Kingston will be my 6th MKII watch. Like everyone else, I have watched estimated-date after estimated-date come and go. At this point, I just try to forget about it - at some point, with little or no warning, the watch will eventually show up. It will be a great surprise when it does!
> 
> ...


Well said Steve! Let us all be patient, it will make us appreciate the watch more when it does come. It has already reached legendary status!!!


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## buckman (Oct 18, 2009)

Steve260 said:


> Some of us keep trying to "change" MKII, hoping that the company will shorten lead times, predict delivery times accurately, and communicate status frequently. I'm just suggesting that if we have never really seen those attributes from MKII in the past, what makes us think we might see them in the future?
> 
> Steve


For those of us first time MKII customers who have had zero previous experience with the company and who do not own any MKII watches, can you see the frustration some of us are experiencing right now with a company that happily took our money for the watch yet continually keeps us in the dark regarding status, pictures, answering emails etc etc? Am I in the minority here wondering how hard it is now to keep us up to date on the status of the Kingston now that Bill has a mod/IT guy who is helping him out with web related issues?

And for some people here to suggest that first-time MKII customers _should have done their research_ regarding past poor communication, delays etc from this company and suck it up or sell your preorder to someone else is patently ridiculous. The US economy is in the crapper and one would think that small businesses like MKII would be bending over backwards right now trying to keep their customers happy.

don't worry-be happy


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## TheGanzman (Jan 12, 2010)

My advice is to drink heavily! My own personal favorite - the Sammy Jaeger! One ounce Sambuca over one ounce Jaegermeister; both out of the freezer, served in a chilled shooter glass. You'll thank me tomorrow!:-!


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

buckman said:


> For those of us first time MKII customers who have had zero previous experience with the company and who do not own any MKII watches, can you see the frustration some of us are experiencing right now with a company that happily took our money for the watch yet continually keeps us in the dark regarding status, pictures, answering emails etc etc? Am I in the minority here wondering how hard it is now to keep us up to date on the status of the Kingston now that Bill has a mod/IT guy who is helping him out with web related issues?
> 
> And for some people here to suggest that first-time MKII customers _should have done their research_ regarding past poor communication, delays etc from this company and suck it up or sell your preorder to someone else is patently ridiculous. The US economy is in the crapper and one would think that small businesses like MKII would be bending over backwards right now trying to keep their customers happy.
> 
> don't worry-be happy


I am a first time MKII customer. I followed this thread and Bill's MKII website for a long time before I began posting. The KINGSTON is my first purchase and much to my surprise I have not worried at all about the lack of communication. Based on all I read and what I have seen of Bill's qualities as a watchmaker/assembler, and the pictures I have seen from Bill and others from the GTG, I know the product will be great.

Hang in there, we all are.

Rich


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

TheGanzman said:


> My advice is to drink heavily! My own personal favorite - the Sammy Jaeger! One ounce Sambuca over one ounce Jaegermeister; both out of the freezer, served in a chilled shooter glass. You'll thank me tomorrow!:-!


I like the cut of your jib, sir. |>


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## roadkingrider (Jan 22, 2008)

This thread has truly been amazing. Thanks to everyone who participated thus far!!! The single most revealing thing (at least to me) is that MKII makes awesome watches and the _*Kingston *_will be perhaps the best one yet. Bill's attention to detail and quality gets an _*A**+++*_. Conversely, his customer service gets an_* F--- *_from many of us.

The one question that lingers in my mind after all this discussion _*is how do the other boutique (pre-pay to order) small watch companies obtain movements, meet advertised schedules, and deliver quality watches*_??? _*Or do they???

Let's PLEASE keep this professional and NOT refer to any of the other boutique companies by NAME.
*_


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## formula100 (Jun 10, 2008)

As a second plank owner let me say again that I am looking forward to receiving my Kingston and I would appreciate just a estimate of when they will be ready. Nothing more at this point. 

I used to be an Cost Accountant for a large manufacturing company (nerd - yep that's me) and I used to do something called Activity Based Costing. The summary is that ABC accounting identified the true cost to manufacture something including time, materials, and quality issues. Our management was shocked to see how much the custom work that we did actually cost vs standard large run production models after implementing ABC. They were charging 10-15% more when the true cost was like 60-75% more for custom builds. 

What I sense is that Bill doesn't charge much more to have a custom watch built (so why wouldn't you want it built your way) but I wonder is that is a drag on his ability to deliver a product in a timely fashion. I mean he must deal with all kinds of changes and parts issues that wouldn't happen if he did pre-built models only. Or maybe 3-4 variants of each model would be acceptable. 

I know I don't know Bill or his business but I wish him the best. He seems to have a loyal customer base and that is gold.

Charles


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

roadkingrider said:


> _*PLEASE
> *_


would you mind turning your volume down a little bit?


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## tmoris (Dec 8, 2009)

rmasso said:


> I am a first time MKII customer. I followed this thread and Bill's MKII website for a long time before I began posting. The KINGSTON is my first purchase and much to my surprise I have not worried at all about the lack of communication. Based on all I read and what I have seen of Bill's qualities as a watchmaker/assembler, and the pictures I have seen from Bill and others from the GTG, I know the product will be great.
> 
> Hang in there, we all are.
> 
> Rich


same here. i dont own a single piece and the general order kingston with project300 are my first investments. 700 bucks gone and i dont feel worried at all. even though the communication etc is way lower than what im used to i still believe that i will get what i paid for on a level that i expect.


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## medtech (May 26, 2007)

I hear people's pain, and that's why I'm here to help. :-!

Are you tired of waiting? :-| 
Worried your money is gone forever? :think: 

I have the solution, and it's INSTANT! ;-)

All you have to do is...sssell your Plank order to ME! b-)

After you do that, ALL your worries and frustrations will MAGICALLY disappear. 

Yes, you will no longer lay awake at night wondering if your Kingston will ever arrive (I will do that for you at no extra charge), and you will never have to check the mail hoping for that "special box", only to be disappointed by bills. :-x

After you sell your Plank order to me you will be happier, richer, and you will lose weight (approx 90 grams). :thanks

So sell your Kingston to me and end all your worries TODAY!! |>


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

medtech said:


> i hear people's pain, and that's why i'm here to help. .........so sell your kingston to me and end all your worries today!! |>


lol!!!


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

At last Bill's posted an update. All parts are in so its just a matter of Bill doing his work


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## SirRolf (Aug 15, 2009)

sunster said:


> At last Bill's posted an update. All parts are in so its just a matter of Bill doing his work


...and the assemblers not making mistakes or taking too long. All the parts passing QC doesn't mean the assembled product will pass QC.

-S.R.


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## caesarmascetti (Dec 17, 2007)

SirRolf said:


> ...and the assemblers not making mistakes or taking too long. All the parts passing QC doesn't mean the assembled product will pass QC.
> 
> -S.R.


I know on other projects Bill has been unhappy with the assembly standard that some of his "stock" watches were built to. He has personally disassembled them when they came in to replace and QC the pieces himself, not to mention all customs are built by Bill. This is what sets MKII apart from the typical boutique company that is really just a forwarding facility for assembled watches, unfortunately since MKII is a 1 man show it's also why it takes a bit longer.


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## JohnF (Feb 11, 2006)

Hi -

It's good that your friendly mod has a sense of humor. Otherwise this would be deleted as a Want-To-Buy post. 

Seriously, though: any want to buy or selling posts do not belong here. Post them on the appropriate fora.

JohnF


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## medtech (May 26, 2007)

Oh, but this is not a Want to Buy post....It's a Want to Help post. :-d


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## dave43 (Oct 13, 2007)

I look forward to the Kingston Bill. Your work always amazes me.


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## gwold (Jun 21, 2010)

Without doubt, I would be agreeing with you about the communication.

That being said, had I known of the Kingston a year earlier I would be right here with you. This is, without doubt to me, the ideal watch. I'm not one to amass a large collection. I want a watch or two that fit my ideals, and that will be all I'll need. From all I've read (not having seen a Mk II in person) this Kingston would likely be the only watch for me. Without doubt it would be my 364 day/year watch.

I do not envy you all your wait. But I do envy you your opportunity. Wear your Kingstons, when they arrive, with pride.

Greg


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## Kayakman (Aug 22, 2009)

I have one of Bill`s Stingray watches,and I think it`s great,BUT in that amount of time waiting for a Kingston, Patek could build the worlds most complicated watch!


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

Kayakman said:


> I have one of Bill`s Stingray watches,and I think it`s great,BUT in that amount of time waiting for a Kingston, Patek could build the worlds most complicated watch!


True Dat. But if they told you it would cost under $1000 AND be customizable for each buyer, between the rush of orders AND the small amount of time dedicated to an unprofitable project, you'd be waiting for 10 years. I'd wait 10 years for a custom Patek, but as much as I like Bill and his watches I don't think I'd wait 10 years for the best MKII: but I'd wait two:-!


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Kayakman said:


> I have one of Bill`s Stingray watches,and I think it`s great,BUT in that amount of time waiting for a Kingston, Patek could build the worlds most complicated watch!


True, but Patek is a huge corporation, Bill is more of a one man (with a few helpers now) shop.

Rich


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

rmasso said:


> True, but Patek is a huge corporation, Bill is more of a one man (with a few helpers now) shop.
> 
> Rich


This statement got me thinking this morning. Which one (if any) of today's microbrands might be an historic marque 100 years from now?


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## JCR (Jan 22, 2009)

good thought, i think to be a historic or legendary watch it would have to be an original design/technology. since most of us are conservative, the microbrands stick to strong design cues from other's original concepts so it is difficult to see how that can be the case. I guess if you want a legacy you are going to have to design something original even if it doesn't sell well and let the aura carry over to the models that are more popular. Let's hope Bill does something like that even if I don't buy one!


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

JCR said:


> good thought, i think to be a historic or legendary watch it would have to be an original design/technology. since most of us are conservative, the microbrands stick to strong design cues from other's original concepts so it is difficult to see how that can be the case. I guess if you want a legacy you are going to have to design something original even if it doesn't sell well and let the aura carry over to the models that are more popular. Let's hope Bill does something like that even if I don't buy one!


That is a very good response/point. It would take something like that to achieve a sort of legendary status that would then allow it to flow to the other pieces in the brand.... That or perhaps a product placement in a movie like the original Rolex Sean Connery wore.... How collectible would that particular model be right now if he had not worn it in such an iconic role/movie? I'm sure it would still be collectible in its own right, but would it be as collectible and valued as it is now??? My opinion is that it probably wouldn't. Thoughts welcome...

Rich


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## Blink982 (Nov 28, 2006)

There seems to be an awful lot of Kool Aid being drunk (American expression?). I'm sure it will be a nice watch but I don't think there is any excuse for the way the customer has been treated throughout this experience. I'm not one of them and nor am I likely to be after reading about it here and elsewhere. Good news travels fast on the internet and bad news travels even faster.

For those that have waited, I hope the watch is worth the wait and you get an apology for the delay and lack of communication.


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

doubledee said:


> There seems to be an awful lot of Kool Aid being drunk (American expression?).


Not an American expression. Rather, a historical reference: Jonestown - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is a terrible slander though, since the People's Temple drank Flavor Aid rather than Kool Aid.


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

I don't understand this thread at all. Is this statement not objectively true?



> The Kingston is nearly a year overdue


1. The "you should have known this would happen [like I did]" argument does not address this point since it implies both a widespread knowledge of Bill's _casual relationship with schedules_ and that the delay is de facto acceptable if it has happened in the past. One might reasonably expect that, even as uncertain as complex small-production watch project are, estimation on these things will only get better rather than worse.

2. The "well, you should just put your plank order up for sale or shut up" does not address this point because it assumes that the middle ground between the satisfaction of receiving a great watch when it was promised and being angry/impatient enough to get out is so insignificant that it's not even worth writing about _on an internet forum_.

3. The "Kingston's going to be a great watch" is really just a non-sequitur. Almost no one disputes it, but it is irrelevant.

There is no discourse here. Pretty much everyone agree on all the facts - it's just that one group of people is angrier than the other. Well, people are free to decide their own feelings.


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

Just so. The bit about "Which microbrand could be the Patek 150 years from now" has absolutely naught to do with the acrimony surrounding the Kingston's delivery schedule. It was just that Rich's post got me thinking.

The most troubling thing about the thought is that nobody is making their own movements now. Swatch/ETA owns everything and the only in-house movements come from the already huge brands. Maybe van der Klaauw or Vianney Halter. IDK. :think:

The Kingston situation is what it is; I've come to terms with it. I'm not thrilled about the rate of progress, but it's a pretty minor thing to stress about.


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## NWP627 (Feb 24, 2008)

nullidentitat said:


> ...but it's a pretty minor thing to stress about.


Considering the condition of the human condition I heartily agree!
N


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## Kent108 (Jan 17, 2007)

Reaction from a guy who has no stake in this (I did not order, and that decision was intentional).

1) MKII not being a household name, one must assume that anyone who signed up for a Kingston had done his/her research to have even found out about it. Thus, I think it IS in fact reasonable to assume that all plank owners did their research and were aware that significant delays were likely. Is the delay acceptable? Well, as the saying goes: fast, good and cheap. You can have any two of those three. Based on what I've seen of this watch, anything comparable from a large manufacturer would cost three, four times as much. The wait time is therefore the price you pay.

I would also dispute your assertion that "one might reasonably assume ..." estimation times would get better rather than worse. This implies that the delays are the direct result of something Bill did or didn't do, when in fact he is merely at the mercy of his suppliers, assemblers, etc.

2) With just about ANY PURCHASE I can think of, a dissatisfied customer has two choices: suck it up, or get his money back. This seems to be the case here, even if it is not through MKII that one might get his money back. Thus, the response of suck it up or sell your spot DOES in fact seem to me to be quite appropriate and understandable.

I'm not saying that saying that it's a big surprise that some are frustrated or impatient. But I am wondering just why those people are angry at the suggestion that they can get their money back. What do they want, Scarlett Johannson to give them a back rub? (OK, we all would like that, but so I guess the real question is, what do they honestly expect can be done to make it right besides that?)



ASRSPR said:


> I don't understand this thread at all. Is this statement not objectively true?
> 
> 1. The "you should have known this would happen [like I did]" argument does not address this point since it implies both a widespread knowledge of Bill's _casual relationship with schedules_ and that the delay is de facto acceptable if it has happened in the past. One might reasonably expect that, even as uncertain as complex small-production watch project are, estimation on these things will only get better rather than worse.
> 
> ...


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## ASRSPR (Jun 8, 2009)

I have no stake in this either, other than that I have a (possible) Project 300 pre-order for which I've certainly hibernated my anticipation. The Kingston looks nice a neat watch and the plank prices is unbeatable, but the design wasn't really to my tastes.

Addressing your response:

1. My understanding is that the delay for the Kingston has been somewhat longer than Bill is known for, even with a reputation for delay. But my point is actually that a delay from a public release window is bad regardless of if the one announcing it is known to be unreliable. I obviously have no idea what has caused the delays and I am not implying that they are within Bill's control, merely that it is reasonable to expect that experience in sourcing the parts for and assembling a custom wristwatch helps in anticipating these sorts of delays.

Think of it this way: most of us have come to share an understanding that these sorts of projects takes a long time, much longer than the period that Bill has proposed. This is your argument, right? The thing that "anyone" could have "found out about"? If an average customer should be expected to predict the delays that have occurred, then why couldn't Bill be expected to have done the same?

2. As for what the expectations of the average customer, we can append to your list "Complain about it online" - as many people do nowadays on the internet.

I don't understand this at all; I don't really care when the Kingston comes out. I do think that if people want to complain about it being late, it is their imperative to do so. "Suck it up" is not in the best spirit of an open discussion forum.



Kent108 said:


> Reaction from a guy who has no stake in this (I did not order, and that decision was intentional).
> 
> 1) MKII not being a household name, one must assume that anyone who signed up for a Kingston had done his/her research to have even found out about it. Thus, I think it IS in fact reasonable to assume that all plank owners did their research and were aware that significant delays were likely. Is the delay acceptable? Well, as the saying goes: fast, good and cheap. You can have any two of those three. Based on what I've seen of this watch, anything comparable from a large manufacturer would cost three, four times as much. The wait time is therefore the price you pay.
> 
> ...


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## MatKid152 (Dec 15, 2008)

There is actually a third option in situations such as these in addition to "Suck it up" or "get your money back", and that is the company supplying the service makes lack of delivery on the quoted service worth the consumers time. Whether it be kicking in additional items on their own dollar or giving a price break both are very very common ways of restitution in such a situation. The fact of the matter is, MKII provides a service like any other company, they should be held accountable as such. There is indeed a lot of Flavor Aid drinkers in the crowd.



Kent108 said:


> Reaction from a guy who has no stake in this (I did not order, and that decision was intentional).
> 
> 1) MKII not being a household name, one must assume that anyone who signed up for a Kingston had done his/her research to have even found out about it. Thus, I think it IS in fact reasonable to assume that all plank owners did their research and were aware that significant delays were likely. Is the delay acceptable? Well, as the saying goes: fast, good and cheap. You can have any two of those three. Based on what I've seen of this watch, anything comparable from a large manufacturer would cost three, four times as much. The wait time is therefore the price you pay.
> 
> ...


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## SirRolf (Aug 15, 2009)

Considering the cost of the Kingston and all the novel features (like gilt hand and dials), I imagine the profit margin is very slim. I don't know if it's possible to give too much away without going into the red. But that's just a guess.

-S.R.


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## Docwein (Feb 11, 2006)

*I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*

however, more info about the watch's progress is the way to go. The biggest problem has been long periods of no info. I am looking forward to getting my Kingston in the near future.


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



Docwein said:


> however, more info about the watch's progress is the way to go. The biggest problem has been long periods of no info. I am looking forward to getting my Kingston in the near future.


I think that's exactly it... people would be less upset if there was a communication plan for the watch. 
It's been beaten to death on the boards, so it should be clear by now that Bill is unwilling or not able to provide consistent communication to his customers.

It's unfortunate - such a little effort, 5 minutes every month to post a 1 or 2 sentence update would go such a long way.


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



clarencek said:


> I think that's exactly it... people would be less upset if there was a communication plan for the watch.
> It's been beaten to death on the boards, so it should be clear by now that Bill is unwilling or not able to provide consistent communication to his customers.
> 
> It's unfortunate - such a little effort, 5 minutes every month to post a 1 or 2 sentence update would go such a long way.


I know not everyone looks to the official website blog page, but since the 1st big Kingston update on 3/01/10 there have been 14 Kingston-only updates in 208 days, averaging an update every 14.5 days (sometimes more often, sometimes a little less).

In case anyone is interested, or doubts that:

Since 1/6/2010, when he began the upgrades to the Website, there have been a significant number of messages to customers on the website.

After 2/9/2010 - at which time Bill posted a very, very long missive about ending a "self-imposed communications blackout" to catch up with the customer's orders and get them out the door - the client communications have been predictably regular. Several Times a Day? No. Daily? No. But, generally, at least every week or two there has been an update (sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more).

Under "General", the first big Kingston-only update came on 3/1

Then - with real work ahead after meeting with everybody in Basel, we got our first post-Basel report almost immediately 3/30
General, Status, Kingston Limited Edition

The Kingston news was building, so it got its own separate blogfile on 4/27

Then, besides any other MKII updates, the actual Kingston-specific communications were posted again on 5/11, 5/17, 5/24, 6/18, 7/01, 7/16, 7/22, 7/28, 7/31, 8/10, 8/31 and most recently 9/19.

This is the main reason I and others have been trying to cool down some of the rhetoric while Bill is making our watches: some of the complaints about "no communication" or "just a sentence or two once a month" seem a little misplaced, and I'd hate to see him get discouraged and say "why bother: nobody reads them anyway?" and stop giving us his regular updates. It may not be a daily chat, but if you check the blog yourself and read the dates listed above, you get a pretty clear picture of what's happening.

"just sayin' ";-)


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## MHe225 (Jan 24, 2010)

Thank you for pointing all of this out, Cpotters and for going the proverbial extra mile to look up dates of posts, etc. I for one didn't share the l_ack of communication_ sentiment echoed by so many and now I know why (I already knew, you know ;-)).

Hope your words travel as quickly on the web as all the negative words, although not likely, as was already pointed out:



doubledee said:


> Good news travels fast on the internet and bad news travels even faster


That is one of the things I don't like about the web .... the vast majority of internet users have adopted the _"because it's out there, it must be true"_ position, without critically probing, doing their own research, forming their own opinion and many good companies and products have been stained, even ruined / destroyed. I can only hope this is not going to be MKII and Mr Yao's fate.

I have posted an occasional critical post on the web over the course of several years, but generally stick with the adage _if you have nothing positive to say, don't say anything at all_

RonB

*PS* - I was extremely pleased when my Quad10 showed up after 14 months of silently waiting and know that I will be equally pleased when my Kingston and SM300 show up. Long waits have a positive side effect too: more time to get the funds together ..... now you know what you're saving your pennies for .... I waited more than 15 years on my first IWC*; had nothing to do with the company, was just me saving money .....

*which I upgraded to my 2nd IWC after 7 more years of saving .... I had to get in as my savings didn't keep up with the regular price increases.


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## clarencek (Mar 25, 2008)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



cpotters said:


> Then, besides any other MKII updates, the actual Kingston-specific communications were posted again on 5/11, 5/17, 5/24, 6/18, 7/01, 7/16, 7/22, 7/28, 7/31, 8/10, 8/31 and most recently 9/19.


Thanks! I stand corrected... That is pretty regular communication - good for Bill. |>


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*

Thanks for posting this. I was going to do the same yesterday but never got the chance.
Rich



cpotters said:


> I know not everyone looks to the official website blog page, but since the 1st big Kingston update on 3/01/10 there have been 14 Kingston-only updates in 208 days, averaging an update every 14.5 days (sometimes more often, sometimes a little less).
> 
> In case anyone is interested, or doubts that:
> 
> ...


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



cpotters said:


> I know not everyone looks to the official website blog page, but since the 1st big Kingston update on 3/01/10 there have been 14 Kingston-only updates in 208 days, averaging an update every 14.5 days (sometimes more often, sometimes a little less).
> 
> In case anyone is interested, or doubts that:
> 
> ...


If you actually read these 'updates' they don't really say anything ...if one had purchased with money up front from a random person in the sc whose watch was then late in arriving and you got 'updates' such as this you'd definitely feel strung along. The only thing which keeps me going is Bill's 'reputation' for delivering fantastically made watches.
I see from another post someone offering big money for a Kingston


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## Randy9999 (Sep 6, 2010)

From my vantagepoint as being someone who wishes he was on the list, reading this thread seems as surreal as watching a Fellini film.

Or perhaps watching a Fellini film under the influence of mood-altering substances.

Not that I'm familiar with either.

Randy


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



sunster said:


> If you actually read these 'updates' they don't really say anything


I just looked at them. They do say something. I'm not sure I understand... what do you want them to say?


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## nullidentitat (Sep 29, 2008)

Randy9999 said:


> From my vantagepoint as being someone who wishes he was on the list, reading this thread seems as surreal as watching a Fellini film.
> 
> Or perhaps watching a Fellini film under the influence of mood-altering substances.
> 
> ...


I'd personally go with "reading Kafka."


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



austinnh said:


> I just looked at them. They do say something. I'm not sure I understand... what do you want them to say?


How about when the watch 'might' be ready? can it still be that hard to project at this late stage?


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## jhobbs (Jan 14, 2007)

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed that I still don't have my Kingston. I'd also be lying if I said the long stretches without updates haven't been frustrating. 

But I'm looking at the whole experience on the bright side.... I've got a super cool watch coming hopefully sooner than later that I've already paid for. And that is a super big plus in my world as my current financial situation wouldn't allow for me to purchase it.


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## SirRolf (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm betting if Bill gave a projected date and had to push it back again people would be more angry than if he just didn't give one at all.

-SR


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## SirRolf (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm betting if Bill gave a projected date and had to push it back again people would be more angry than if he just didn't give one at all.

-SR


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



sunster said:


> How about when the watch 'might' be ready? can it still be that hard to project at this late stage?


Could be that hard. Because I've heard people say things like "a year behind scheduled delivery" or "why can't we have a firm date" or - as you said "when 'might' this watch be ready"? (a fair and reasonable question, to be sure)

I guess I would ask another question, which sort of sets up the answer for the others:

When, exactly, on what date, did the design input process (that we were all privileged to be a part of) officially close?

Feel free to jump in here. Anyone. The specific date.

This is key, because it was ONLY from that point on that the REAL ordering portal could be opened (that's the one where you choose the actual options on your watch and spares kit). That's the point when Bill could actually begin to order specific parts and begin the tedious process of having them shipped and QC'd

And THATS when the waiting time begins, for me anyway.

While we chose bracelet widths, rivets or no rivets, C3 or no C3, date or no date options, flat or gloss dials, gilt dial options or no - every one of these things pushed the ordering process for parts (yes, that's suppliers, sometimes in other countries) off into the future. We all got a say in every detail about the watch, and got carte blanche in what was kept (nearly everything the entire community asked for was kept as an option) and we largely are responsible for much of the delays since 2/09.

The Kingston could have been pre-designed like all of his other watches and ordered on the website like all of the other models. But then we wouldn't have been part of the process. But we were, and this is the end result: a great watch and lots of complaints (more than ever before) from people who were part of it to begin with.

Which is why - as I've stated before - there will never be another project like this. If you were someone like Bill Yao, and you went through all of the birthing pains of the Kingston, would you do it again?


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## austinnh (May 25, 2009)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*



sunster said:


> How about when the watch 'might' be ready? can it still be that hard to project at this late stage?


After all the complaints Bill is already getting for previous delays that weren't his fault, of course he is not likely take another shot at projecting the schedule until he knows for sure what it is. And he won't know that until after all parts are QCed and the watches are assembled and shipped back to him and then CQed.


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

*Re: I do not think Bill owes us a rebate of any kind..............*

SO its ok to give an estimated date when collecting the cash for pre-orders, but not after its all been paid for? Interesting way of doing business. Gonna give up complaining now as its on deaf ears anyway. Will sit and wait, wait, wait and hope it arrives 
Love Bill's watches, but not the business model


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## namor (Apr 4, 2006)

Everyone's mileage may vary, but for me Bill's laxity with this project has soured me to the point that I will never enjoy wearing the watch. If and when it ever becomes available.


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## Dennis Smith (Feb 15, 2006)

nullidentitat said:


> This statement got me thinking this morning. Which one (if any) of today's microbrands might be an historic marque 100 years from now?


Damasko

They started with a strong, clean design that carries through all their watches, then they added a lot of technology to the cases, then they started heavily modifying their chronograph movements. Now they're starting to incorporate their own, in-house automatic movements. Impressive...makes me want to own one.


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## Thieuster (Jan 22, 2009)

I think that most comments are fair; positive and negative. There are two sides to every story and it's all about perspective. Example: a lot of comments (on other forums too) is about handing over a lot of money and waiting for a period. I've seen WIS buying a watch and losing more money over it when it comes to selling within a year or so. And that is supposed to be 'all in the game'. It's just the way you look at things.

Back to the-lack-of-communcation subject: I've seen the pics from that Ablogtoread article. Most comments on the new pics are very positive. Perhaps that's the way to go for Bill: just posting a few pics every two weeks or so. No comments, just a few pics every time: e.g. a bird's eye view of all the dials, acres of hands, all cases lined up, wrapped up parts ready for shipment. I'm sure Bill is taking pics from time to time, creating his own history book. 

An example: a few weeks back, Bill sent me my Tornek. Before that, he sent me a few pics of the dial. I posted a pic and there were lots of comments. All positive! 

As we all say: "Without pics, it didn't happen." Therefore, pics is the only thing we really need.

Just my 0.02 euro cents :-d

Menno


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## sunster (Apr 17, 2007)

Nicely put Menno


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## cpotters (Jan 29, 2009)

sunster said:


> Nicely put Menno


Agreed!:-!


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## rmasso (Mar 31, 2009)

Very well put Menno!
Rich


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## gwold (Jun 21, 2010)

namor said:


> Everyone's mileage may vary, but for me Bill's laxity with this project has soured me to the point that I will never enjoy wearing the watch. If and when it ever becomes available.


Sorry to hear you're not happy, Namor. I cannot honestly say how I'd be feeling right now if I'd been involved here on time to be in your shoes. If it's any consolation, should you really find yourself bitter with your watch, take heart that there are more than a few who'll bid on your sale. But in truth I hope you're blown away and keep it.


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