# So just how crappy is 6R15 movement? ;)



## KeithNYC (Dec 24, 2012)

Ladies and Gents-

The thread in Public "Best watch movement under $1000" contained some surprising (to me) thoughts about this movement:

*Re: Best Watch Movement Under 1,000.00*

Originally posted by* yifu*>

"Absolutely agreed, the Seiko mid range offerings are appalling, mainly due to the movement used - the 6R15, which is exactly the same as a 7S26 with a hack lever and winding stem ducted taped to it. It has such poor accuracy compared to the Swiss counterparts and you really have to go to the 8L or 9S calibres to get better from Seiko. Seiko's entry level watches are very good value for money though."
_







Originally Posted by *Mike_Dowling* 
I think if the price range were $300 - $500 you would've had a lot of Seiko recommendations, but once you hit the $1000 price point you're in very solid ETA chrono movement territory with watches that have Swiss fit and finish. I like Seiko watches, I've owned a few and currently love my TUNA. But my TUNA is an $800 quartz with mineral crystal, I don't pretend it's great value, I bought it based on aesthetics and I can always sell it for $750. Other Japanese watches to me are very underwhelming compared to Swiss counterparts in the 1K + range. Obviously Grand Seiko and a few others are exceptions to that statement but you'll pay for that.

_
​
Having lurked in the Seiko forum for some time, and developing quite a lust for Monsters and Sumos and such, this was very surprising and I expected some blow back in that thread over the quoted thoughts. None came.

How good or otherwise are Sieko's "mid-range" movements? For a piece I expect to keep for a long time, is it better to stick with 7S26 movements?

Am I making too much of nothing?

Thank you!


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## Drop of a Hat (Dec 16, 2011)

My opinion from owning all of them.
1. Miyota 9015
2. Seiko 6r15
3. ETA 2824

My 6r15 was very accurate. All my 2824s have had issues at one time or another. And, you're not supposed to handwind them, which I find ridiculous.


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## mtbluger (Oct 19, 2006)

I can't speak to the 7S26, but I have owned a few of the 6R15 that were regulated by Jake at Dagaz and I can tell you that movement was very solid. All three run between +3 and +6 seconds per day with zero issues.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

KeithNYC said:


> Ladies and Gents-
> 
> The thread in Public "Best watch movement under $1000" contained some surprising (to me) thoughts about this movement:
> 
> ...


Just ignore the Swiss fanboy hot air. To them Swiss is a religion and they only recognize one watch god ;-)

The 6r15 is based on the 7s26 BUT it has several enhancements that make it better. The obvious ones are the addition of hand winding and hacking capabilities.
The not so obvious ones are the new Seiko materials used in the balance spring and mainspring. Seiko's 6r15 balance spring material is equal to that used in the mid level ETA movements. The mainspring material is superior to anything that ETA has to offer. It provides both a much longer reserve wind as well as a much more uniform energy between low and high winding.

Part of the reason you pay more for the ETA powered watches is because they are supposedly regulated by hand at the factory. The Seikos are by contrast only regulated by machine. Thus the difference between a $300 watch and one that sells for over $1000

There is nothing inherently wrong with the 7s26; it has been around since 1996 and most of them are still running just fine without ever having had the benefit of a service. The same cannot be said about equivalently aged ETA movements.
Swiss movements can be excellent performers and last for a long time but they absolutely have to be serviced regularly or they will stop working and require costly repairs. If the 7s26 stops, you just drop in a new movement for $50 and you're good to go for another 40 years ;-)


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## vintageguy (Mar 22, 2009)

I have a 6309-7040 Seiko dive watch. I thought I heard rotor noise. the watch is circa 1977 & it's not been
serviced. I took it to my watch maker (his daily wearer is a Seiko) who told me not to worry until the 
watch stops running. in comparison, I have a circa 1990's Patek which I sent in for routine COA service. 
it cost me $1500.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

vintageguy said:


> I have a 6309-7040 Seiko dive watch. I thought I heard rotor noise. the watch is circa 1977 & it's not been
> serviced. I took it to my watch maker (his daily wearer is a Seiko) who told me not to worry until the
> watch stops running. in comparison, I have a circa 1990's Patek which I sent in for routine COA service.
> it cost me $1500.


This business of letting a watch run until it stops is bad, bad advice. If it's a 7s26 then that makes sense but with vintage pieces this is not good advice at all because new parts and/or new movements are very difficult to come by.

I recently restored half a dozen 6309/6319/6349 movements and all of them had to have parts replaced because they had been left until they stopped working then the whole watch thrown out. It typically takes two donor movements to restore one good one and that is with used parts. I've used the best of the best but this is certainly not the same as having new parts.

Watchmakers who give this advice are typically either looking for the big repair later or simply can't be bothered to work on an old Seiko knowing that parts are going to be a problem :-(


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## tribe125 (Mar 7, 2006)

Yes, ignore the nonsense you have found in that quoted thread.

The 6r15 is a confidence-inspiring movement, every bit the equal of an ETA 2824.


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## Fi33pop (Aug 5, 2013)

So crappy that it inspired the saying, "you lie like a cheap watch".

just kidding


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

tribe125 said:


> Yes, ignore the nonsense you have found in that quoted thread.
> 
> The 6r15 is a confidence-inspiring movement, every bit the equal of an ETA 2824.


I have noticed that my Sumo movements both were all over the place over a small interval of time, but kept pretty good time if looked at over a long period. With the 2824, it really just boiled down to how it was regulated at birth.

As I've said before, the 6R15 is an accurate movement, but from my experience not precise. Conversely, the 2824 is a very precise movement, but usually not that accurate due to poor regulation. I can say from my experience, without a doubt, the 6R15 is much more susceptible to accuracy deviations due to how it's used and the environment it's used in. All that said, I do like the 6R15 almost as much as the 2824. It's very robust and has a great hand wind functionality to it. I will take a 6R15 way, way before I'd take a Miyota, and I actually find Miyotas to be just fine. So I like them all really. They have pros and cons, but are generally good movements.


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## Topher1556 (Aug 22, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Just ignore the Swiss fanboy hot air. To them Swiss is a religion and they only recognize one watch god ;-)
> 
> The 6r15 is based on the 7s26 BUT it has several enhancements that make it better. The obvious ones are the addition of hand winding and hacking capabilities.
> The not so obvious ones are the new Seiko materials used in the balance spring and mainspring. Seiko's 6r15 balance spring material is equal to that used in the mid level ETA movements. The mainspring material is superior to anything that ETA has to offer. It provides both a much longer reserve wind as well as a much more uniform energy between low and high winding.
> ...


The only way I can agree more with this is to say "ditto"! Well said sir.

And to the OP: I'll say it if nobody else will: that is a stupid thread. My reasoning is as follows.

In general, the author of that thread tosses design/appearance out the window and wants to focus solely on the movment and cost of the movement. Well, as far as I know, a movement has to go into a watch case. So the appearance of that case should be of major concern. I'm not going to wear an obtuse watch on my wrist, even if it has the most decorated accurate mechanical movement on the planet...because I will hate how it looks.

The reason you didn't see a big response to those comments is we here in the Seiko/Citizen corner know responding would just invite flames, frustration and be a general waste of our time. We're not going to change someone's mind who categorically dismisses the entire 7S and 6R line while demonstrating they basically know nothing about it. They tout all the great fit & finish of a $1,000 swiss watch (mentioning the case...which the OP said was of no concern), and assume the movement is finished just as well. If you spend $1000 on a mechanical Seiko or Citizen and $1000 on a mechanical Swiss brand...you will be getting more watch with the Japanese...no doubt about it.

My lack of motivation to respond to trolling posts like those in that thread is reinforced by the fact the quotes you listed (and that thread in general) almost completely ignores genuinely amazing movements like the the 6R20 family. It is lumped in with the 6R15 unfairly. Thank goodness CitizenM piped up a few times. The 6R20 is a high-beat (28.8k bph vs 21.6k bph of the 6R15) 29jewel beauty and typically has hour, minute, second along with day, date and power reserve complications along with of course being hacking/handwinding and using a decorated movement to boot. My SPB001J would _blow away_ most watches that cost twice as much or more...very easily. The bracelet alone on the SBP001J is a work of art. Even at MSRP it would have been in the $1k range. It's a genuine watch made by a real watch company (one that makes the cases, dials, hands, movements, crystals and lume. Basically, all the other suggestions are just companies assembling outsourced production. Blech.

Instead, what happens is the typical ETA 2824 & Valjoux 7750 fans post their thoughts while trying to minimize the quality Seiko and Citizen can offer. Did you see the post by CitizenM regarding the 9000 family? Most in there don't know how to compare apples to apples, and use the factory specs against the Citizen. o|

I did enjoy Citizen's comments...


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## KeithNYC (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks all! Great stuff. And yes I agree, the premise of that thread was inane.

I'm at the very beginning of the learning curve regarding movements. I appreciate your time!


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## KeithNYC (Dec 24, 2012)

And Topher 1556, 

I did find CitizenMs comments very enlightening. Thanks again!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

KeithNYC said:


> And Topher 1556,
> 
> I did find CitizenMs comments very enlightening. Thanks again!


I like your attitude!
Your presence here is much appreciated...and you will learn a lot by hanging around


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## liwang22 (Sep 13, 2012)

I have experience with both 6R15 and 2824. I think both are nice, but the handwinding on the 6R15 feels especially nice. I'm very happy with my 6R15 in all regards.


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## KeithNYC (Dec 24, 2012)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I like your attitude!
> Your presence here is much appreciated...and you will learn a lot by hanging around


Thanks and thank you for mentioning the SPB 001J- it's now on the list :-!


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

6R15's are great movements. Paid $30 and had my Sumo regulated by MCWW and it keeps COSC time.

Man those Swiss fanboys really had a grudge, it's been something like 45 years since Seiko put them in the 'Steiner Recliner' on their home court time keeping competition in the Alps.


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## xzqt (Jan 26, 2013)

What i like about thr 6R15 is the power reserve.


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## W123 (Oct 15, 2007)

And no reverser wheels to break


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## Topher1556 (Aug 22, 2007)

cold_beer839 said:


> 6R15's are great movements. Paid $30 and had my Sumo regulated by MCWW and it keeps COSC time.
> 
> Man those Swiss fanboys really had a grudge, it's been something like 45 years since Seiko put them in the 'Steiner Recliner' on their home court time keeping competition in the Alps.


Nice 

I also take particular enjoyment knowing Seiko holds their GS standards to tighter tolerances than the "Swiss" |>. I guess one could say Seiko continues to do their own certifications and stick it to the "Swiss" yearly :-d.


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## Boone (Aug 29, 2009)

My 2824 was +6 or so per day and barely had about 35 hours of power reserve.

My 6r15 in the Sumo is consistently -3 per day and the power reserve is in the 50's, and this is after 4 years of use.


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## marco escobar (Feb 28, 2010)

My 6R15 is crappy. It runs -5 to +0 daily!


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## R.Palace (Mar 11, 2011)

Drop of a Hat said:


> All my 2824s have had issues at one time or another. And, you're not supposed to handwind them, which I find ridiculous.


I've heard that before, however, some say that these movements are not damaged by handwinding. I personally handwind them and haven't experienced any problems with my 2824 and 2836. Anyone else here handwind these ETA movements and haven't had any problems.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

R.Palace said:


> I've heard that before, however, some say that these movements are not damaged by handwinding. I personally handwind them and haven't experienced any problems with my 2824 and 2836. Anyone else here handwind these ETA movements and haven't had any problems.


I have a couple of ETA 2824-2 powered watches. Hand winding them is not really all that pleasant an operation as the winding can be very stiff. When they get like this, it is not adviseable to hand wind them since one of the weakest points in the 2824-2 is the keyless works. The setting lever is a very delicate part that is usually the first thing to break. Since it is all part of the same system with inter related parts, hand winding will also stress these parts.

A new or freshly serviced 2824-2 shouldn't be a problem but on that has not been service for more than a few years has the potential for these parts to break.

Since the 6r15 is still relatively new and we haven't seen a weakness in this area; it is probably ok to hand wind it but from an article that Randall Benson did on this movement; it seems the manual winding parts are perhaps a little less robust than the could be. I would hand wind this movement sparingly.


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## ec633 (Jan 6, 2012)

marco escobar said:


> My 6R15 is crappy. It runs -5 to +0 daily!


 If you know how to regulate the movement, you'll definitely have different view - believe me. 6R15 is the modified version of the 7S26 with hack function incorporated. BTW, I thought -5 sec per day is well within spec.


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## mocapitane (Jul 24, 2011)

My 6r15 is extremely accurate and has a very good power reserve. I would not rate them lower than my ETA movts.


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## JohnA (Dec 4, 2008)

I have a bunch of 7s26 movements and they are all pretty good - under 15 sec out a day - best is probably the 007 at sub 10 sec up a day. I have a couple of 6r15 movements and as other folks point out, they are superior to the 7s in accuracy across a range of positions. Both my Sumo and Blue Spark are with 6-8 seconds a day and very stable. The Sumo may even be under 5 - I've not worn it lately but I recall it always impresses. 

So the 6r15 is not perfect but is very good for the prices paid for the pieces in question. I don't know that I'd call the 6r15 a mid-range movement, though. When it comes to Japanese autos I reserve that label for 6r20 and 9015 movements and arguably for 8L35 movements. I appreciate this is subjective. My logic is that if a 9s Hi-Beat is high end and a 7s is low end, a 6r15 is not mid-range. 

My 6r20 seems mid-range to me. Very stable. Gains 4 seconds a day and not concerned with positioning. A lovely 28,800 decorated movement with interesting complications. I love thinking about the movement and watching it work. I get extra pleasure when its smooth seconds hand causes me to consider its upgraded specifications when wearing it. Shame a day/date 6r20 didn't make it into a 6105 re-release or into the Sumo. We'd all have found the 750 for a 28,800 Sumo. Though there is the Miyota 9015 in the PRS-68 which looks a beautiful homage, in my opinion. But it's not a Seiko. 

Just for comparison, my IWW restored '71 6105 movement is reliably 25 seconds a day fast, which is a bit annoying frankly. My '78 6309 is 3 up a day and rock solid. I have some low cost Orient movements that are brilliant in accuracy and stability and they are not as fine in looks as a 6r15. In fact they look positively industrial. 

Both the 6r15 and 6r20 descend from the 7s, which descends from earlier 7002 Seiko movements that also form the basis of the Orient engines I find so accurate in my Orient Star Classic and Orient 300. So there's a common lineage but given the similarity of the mechanisms of all watches I don't think that common connection renders either of the 6r movements unworthy. 

We'd need to talk to the quoted critic and try to agree on what we meant by words like 'quality', 'high end' and 'fine'. You can buy a Valjoux 7750 in a Longines chrono for $1950 or pay $30,000 for the same movement encrusted with diamonds by a master jeweller. Personally, I favour technical heredity, inhouse designs with common lineage, practicality, simplicity and affordability.


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## EvoRich (Jan 30, 2013)

My 6R15 watch is just as accurate if not more accurate than my Swiss watches. I don't have anything super high end, an ETA 2824, 7750 and caliber 1861. But accuracy varies whether or not it's being worn or just sitting in my safe for 24 hours. It's hard to gauge it's exact accuracy in comparison to others. But I don't see a substantial difference between any of them. If accuracy was so crucial to me, I'd stick with my Eco-Drives, and Seiko quartz. Otherwise, I'd buy a chronometer certified watch. 

My daily, beater watch (as I work a job that a watch will be abused) is a 7S26 powered Seiko. It runs about 1 minutes slow starting Monday and ending Friday. Roughly 10-15 seconds slow a day. I'm fine with that. 

As for the 6R15, it really is just a 7S26 with hacking and winding. It's plenty fine for a watch in the $500-800 range. I think what makes watches like the Sumo seem like it could cost more than it does is the finishing and quality of the case itself. It just feels and looks like a solid watch, despite it's movement. I'd say the 6R15 is comparable to an ETA 2824. I like winding my 6R15 more. It just feels and sounds better. I've heard you're not supposed to hand wind the 2824, but I do all the time. I could also be totally wrong here, but the 2824 just seems delicate to me. I know first hand how tough the 7S26 movements are, and since the 6R15 movement is essentially the same thing, I'd consider them just as tough. I've dropped on the floor, banged against door jams, engine blocks, swung hammers, etc. with my 7S26 beater. It refuses to die. and I continue to do this everyday. 

If I was going to design a watch myself and wanted to source a movement and had a choice between the 2824 and 6R15, I'd like choose the 6R15 for it's robustness, power reserve, accuracy and value. The only benefit to using the 2824 in a custom watch is being able to label to dial "Swiss Made" and keep it affordable. I will say I enjoy looking at a second hand beating at 28,800 over 21,600. But, I feel like the 6R15 is better overall, but seriously what do I know? (<---- not sarcastic...)

I'm not movement snob. I like the whole package and history/hertitage of the brand, or watch itself. Otherwise, I just buy what I like. I have watches such as the Seiko Tuna, or Speedy Pro because not only do they appeal to me, but the hisotry and heritage is appealing. I bought Citizen Nighthawk because I just like it. Rarely ever do I buy a watch for it's movement.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Part of the reason you pay more for the ETA powered watches is because they are supposedly regulated by hand at the factory. The Seikos are by contrast only regulated by machine. Thus the difference between a $300 watch and one that sells for over $1000


The reason you pay more for an ETA movement is not that it is "regulated by hand," which I doubt, but that the base grade 2824 is adjusted 2 positions; the 2892 and 7750 are adjusted 3 positions in base grade, etc. The 6r15 is an unadjusted movement.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> The reason you pay more for an ETA movement is not that it is "regulated by hand," which I doubt, but that the base grade 2824 is adjusted 2 positions; the 2892 and 7750 are adjusted 3 positions in base grade, etc. The 6r15 is an unadjusted movement.


Adjusting is only done by hand. It's the process of physically manipulating the parts and systems in the movement.
Regulation can be done by machine or by hand. The simple fact that watches can be machine regulated to such close tolerances is amazing in itself. Hand regulation is just icing on the cake.

Considering the average out of the box accuracy and precision of the 6r15, I would say that 'adjustments' don't seem to add a lot to the ETA movements in terms of time keeping on base models.
Seiko seems to have managed to produce 'unadjusted' movements that don't need anything other than machine regulation to keep excellent time.

Regulation is nothing more than moving the regulator lever back and forth to optimize the operating length of the balance spring.

Adjustment involves actual physical changes to the system like poising the balance wheel, adjusting the curb pins for optimum palette travel, setting the palette jewels for optimum lock and release of the escape wheel and adjustment of the balance cock for end shake. These operations are can only be done by hand and through trial and error. Machines don't do so well at this.

Human interaction always costs more.

But when a machine produced movement like the 6r15 can be made to run as well as the hand tweaked 2824; the cost becomes a bit of a boondoggle...marketing exercise.

Both are excellent and competent movements. Choosing one over the other should have little to performance and everything to do with the watch they are put into


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Adjusting is only done by hand. It's the process of physically manipulating the parts and systems in the movement.


However the watch can be "adjusted" without being actually touched by a human hand. Because "adjusted" sometimes means just "checked" - if the watch is within the required tolerances for a certain position (which are rarely revealed to the public) no adjusting is necessary.


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## Ramblin man (Feb 7, 2011)

I have 2 JDM with 6R15 - accuracy is very good. And to handwind - smooth as butter.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> However the watch can be "adjusted" without being actually touched by a human hand. Because "adjusted" sometimes means just "checked" - if the watch is within the required tolerances for a certain position (which are rarely revealed to the public) no adjusting is necessary.


There we go again with infantile word games :-(

What dictionary are you using and what the heck are you smoking???

Watch related terms have specific meanings of which you obviously have no knowledge :roll:


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Watch related terms have specific meanings of which you obviously have no knowledge :roll:


Yes, and adjusted doesn't mean "the process of physically manipulating the parts and systems in the movement" as you are claiming.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> But when a machine produced movement like the 6r15 can be made to run as well as the hand tweaked 2824; the cost becomes a bit of a boondoggle...marketing exercise.


That's not been my anecdotal experience. My ETAs adjusted to 2 positions (base grade) have consistently had minimal positional variation compared with the 6r15. It's difficult to downplay the importance of adjustments in consistently producing movements that can be regulated to tight tolerances.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> That's not been my anecdotal experience. My ETAs adjusted to 2 positions (base grade) have consistently had minimal positional variation compared with the 6r15. It's difficult to downplay the importance of adjustments in consistently producing movements that can be regulated to tight tolerances.


Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to downplay the importance of any adjustments. I'm simply pointing out that the 6r15 can be made to perform as well as the 2824 with it's 2 adjustments.
Several folks here have had their 6r15s regulated and then done monitoring over a two week to one month period. Their experiences have shown that the positional variations are not that far off from what the ETA produces.

If we talk about the top of the line ETA 2824 which has special balance systems, is adjusted to 5 positions plus temperature; then certainly, the 6r15 is no match. But we don't find those type of ETAs in mid range watches like the 6r15 goes into.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> If we talk about the top of the line ETA 2824 which has special balance systems, is adjusted to 5 positions plus temperature; then certainly, the 6r15 is no match.


The 6R15 as it comes from the factory. How about the 6R15, adjusted to 5 positions by a sufficiently skilled watchmaker?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to downplay the importance of any adjustments. I'm simply pointing out that the 6r15 can be made to perform as well as the 2824 with it's 2 adjustments.


But you ARE downplaying "the importance of any adjustments" by "pointing out that the 6r15 can me made to perform as well as the 2824 with its 2 adjustments."



Pawl_Buster said:


> Seiko seems to have managed to produce 'unadjusted' movements that don't need anything other than machine regulation to keep excellent time.


You're concluding that Seiko has an amazing production and regulation machine rendering ETA's 2 adjustments meaningless based on scant anecdotal evidence regarding the the excellent timekeeping of the 6r15?? Sounds like the Swiss have some catching up to do :-s


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> But you ARE downplaying "the importance of any adjustments" by "pointing out that the 6r15 can me made to perform as well as the 2824 with its 2 adjustments."


I guess the 2424 with 2 adjustments isn't the grail that some people think it is ;-)



> You're concluding that Seiko has an amazing production and regulation machine rendering ETA's 2 adjustments meaningless based on scant anecdotal evidence regarding the the excellent timekeeping of the 6r15?? Sounds like the Swiss have some catching up to do :-s


Not at all; the 2824 without the 2 adjustments probably wouldn't perform as well as the 6r15 does. It's the same scant anecdotal evidence that has Swiss fanbois chirping about it's supposed superiority ;-)

The 2824-2 is a solid, well engineered(for the most part) movement. It comes in three or four quality levels and can be made to meet chronometer standards. The base level model is really no more competent than the 6r15.
Both are excellent mid tier calibres.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> The 2824-2 is a solid, well engineered(for the most part) movement. It comes in three or four quality levels and can be made to meet chronometer standards. *The base level model is really no more competent than the 6r15.*


What we can say with certainty is we'll probably never know.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Sean779 said:


> What we can say with certainty is we'll probably never know.


Why not? We only have to put 20 randomly selected watches (10 for each movement) on a timegrapher.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> Why not? We only have to put 20 randomly selected watches (10 for each movement) on a timegrapher.


I'm going to assume you're joking or in charge of controlled studies for a large pharmaceutical company.


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## Mike_Dowling (May 4, 2013)

I don't really see the problem with my statement at all, sub $500 hands down I would go with the Seiko movement, $1000 I would go with the Swiss for several reasons and none of them have to do with accuracy, the best mechanical movement won't be as accurate as a $15.00 quartz from Walmart let's be honest here, the 6R15 and 2824 are probably comparable in accuracy. But obviously the premise is the movement has to go into a case right? The $1000 Swiss will have 2824 7750 movement, better resale and overall a better investment than its Japanese counterpart.

Seeing as I've owned more Japanese watches than Swiss, not sure I can be relegated to the "Swiss fanboy" dustbin.


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## stockae92 (Feb 10, 2006)

I have to say, my 6R movement runs really quiet! I can't hear it running. Or maybe my hearing is just getting worse.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Sean779 said:


> I'm going to assume you're joking or in charge of controlled studies for a large pharmaceutical company.


No, I'm not joking. Now we have a sample of 0 and we are only guessing. With a sample of 10 our knowledge would be much better.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Mike_Dowling said:


> I don't really see the problem with my statement at all, sub $500 hands down I would go with the Seiko movement, $1000 I would go with the Swiss for several reasons and none of them have to do with accuracy, the best mechanical movement won't be as accurate as a $15.00 quartz from Walmart let's be honest here, the 6R15 and 2824 are probably comparable in accuracy. But obviously the premise is the movement has to go into a case right? The $1000 Swiss will have 2824 7750 movement, better resale and overall a better investment than its Japanese counterpart.
> 
> Seeing as I've owned more Japanese watches than Swiss, not sure I can be relegated to the "Swiss fanboy" dustbin.


Mike, you certainly don't fit in the Swiss fanboy dustbin.
You always have well reasoned points of view that any knowledgeable person would have trouble arguing...like the above 

I do discount those who only see things from one point of view to the exclusion of all else. It makes no difference if it's a Swiss fan, A Japanese fan or whatever kind of fan ... unreasoned bias is always unacceptable to me and has to be challenged for the good of all ;-)


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## MikeyT (Mar 28, 2009)

cold_beer839 said:


> 6R15's are great movements. Paid $30 and had my Sumo regulated by MCWW and it keeps COSC time.
> 
> Man those Swiss fanboys really had a grudge, it's been something like 45 years since Seiko put them in the 'Steiner Recliner' on their home court time keeping competition in the Alps.


And then locked them out of the game.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

MikeyT said:


> And then locked them out of the game.


Ain't that the truth :-d

The best way to battle something that is superior or merely threatening is to ridicule it. The Swiss marketing machine has that one mastered


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## natedadude (Dec 6, 2011)

My 6r15 powered Sumo is the most accurate watch I own. It is not as consistent as my high-end Swiss watches, but it averages out a lot better. I am currently getting an average deviation of about 8-10 seconds a week with my Sumo, which is exceptional when you compare it to any 7s26 Seiko I have ever owned. In my opinion and experience, I would say that the 6r15 is a way better movement than the 7s26, and worth the upgrade.


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## sirgilbert357 (Mar 21, 2012)

Drop of a Hat said:


> My opinion from owning all of them.
> 1. Miyota 9015
> 2. Seiko 6r15
> 3. ETA 2824
> ...


What?? I handwind my Chris Ward Trident quite a bit...why aren't you supposed to handwind them???

Edit: I handwind my SARB033 quite a bit too. If I'm wearing it for the day and its in an unwound state when I put it on, I wind it for at least a full minute and then set the time. I don't get why a movement would be made so fragile that one of the key selling points (handwinding) would be a easily breakable function...


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

sirgilbert357 said:


> What?? I handwind my Chris Ward Trident quite a bit...why aren't you supposed to handwind them???
> 
> Edit: I handwind my SARB033 quite a bit too. If I'm wearing it for the day and its in an unwound state when I put it on, I wind it for at least a full minute and then set the time. I don't get why a movement would be made so fragile that one of the key selling points (handwinding) would be a easily breakable function...


It is a well known weakness of the ETA 2824 that the keyless works are delicate. That means care should be taken when setting the day/date/time and when hand winding.


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

When the Zombie Apocalypse hits, should I grab my high-end swiss movement, knowing that I won't be able to have it serviced?


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> It is a well known weakness of the ETA 2824 that the keyless works are delicate. That means care should be taken when setting the day/date/time and when hand winding.


How does day/date/time factor in here with hand winding the 2824? Supposedly, the rationale for the 2824's delicate winding mechanism is that it would not be used as often as a hand winder (saving some $$ there). ETA is not the only one using this supposed thinking. Vostok states in their manual that their automatic watches should be wound no more than 15-20 times and then let rotor movement take over. Personally I think ETA underestimated how often people would completely wind their automatic watches. (At least Vostok addressed it in their manual.)


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> How does day/date/time factor in here with hand winding the 2824? Supposedly, the rationale for the 2824's delicate winding mechanism is that it would not be used as often as a hand winder (saving some $$ there). ETA is not the only one using this supposed thinking. Vostok states in their manual that their automatic watches should be wound no more than 15-20 times and then let rotor movement take over. Personally I think ETA underestimated how often people would completely wind their automatic watches. (At least Vostok addressed it in their manual.)


I don't know about other calibres; it is just a known weakness of the ETA 2824 and should be avoided if possible.
Considering how old the 2824 is, ETA should have addressed this problem decades ago :-(

The Swiss don't generally acknowledge their short comings as they spent billions of marketing dollars making people think their watches are unbreakable and superior to everything else ;-)


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

nullzorz said:


> When the Zombie Apocalypse hits, should I grab my high-end swiss movement, knowing that I won't be able to have it serviced?


I would think that a watch would be the last thing I'd be worrying about ;-) But if you must concern yourself with that choice; then the Seiko would be the better choice because it will keep going long after the Swiss piece had died from lack of servicing.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I don't know about other calibres; it is just a known weakness of the ETA 2824 and should be avoided if possible.
> Considering how old the 2824 is, ETA should have addressed this problem decades ago :-(
> 
> The Swiss don't generally acknowledge their short comings as they spent billions of marketing dollars making people think their watches are unbreakable and superior to everything else ;-)


I know about the weakness in the 2824's hand winding, but you also included day/date/time as (fragile) weaknesses. I had never heard that before.


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## pasiz (Nov 3, 2013)

I think most negative point in Seiko mass movements is that they are not adjusted to positions. That is solved by getting it to watchmaker and asking for adjusting. You need a good watchmaker of course, but result is something better than non chronometer grade eta.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

pasiz said:


> I think most negative point in Seiko mass movements is that they are not adjusted to positions. That is solved by getting it to watchmaker and asking for adjusting. You need a good watchmaker of course, but result is something better than non chronometer grade eta.


You need a VERY good watchmaker. I'm curious what procedures and expense is involved in adjusting a movement after manufacture.

It's not just Seiko, also Citizen/Miyota (including the 9015), and of course Orient. As far as I know, the only company producing movement grades, basic to chronometer, is the Swiss Selitta, which I assume is overwhelmed with orders since few watches sold today have their movements--unless they're prohibitively expensive.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> I know about the weakness in the 2824's hand winding, but you also included day/date/time as (fragile) weaknesses. I had never heard that before.


The setting lever is prone to breaking.


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## Splinter Faction (Feb 23, 2013)

Interesting discussion. My humble observation is that it is perfectly fine to be a Swiss fan or a Japanese fan in the same way that you pick one sports team over another, but neither side is going to "win," as the points and counter-points will never be beyond dispute. I guess you could say the consumer wins from the competition. I love my Seiko with 6R15C, and it's amazing to me that for a modest price, the watch runs essentially +/- 0 if I use the "disadvantage" of positional variance to adjust it overnight. But meanwhile, I also have a Hamilton with 2824 that is almost 30 years old and still runs at about +3 and (don't tell anybody) has never been serviced. I guess it will blow up eventually as someone warned upthread, and I don't advocate such neglect, but that's my experience.


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## at2011 (Jan 23, 2011)

In 100 years Seiko would've probably added a dozen new advancements to their stable of movements while the Swiss would be adding a couple more zeroes to their same old same old...and Seiko will still be inferior to dear Fanboy's eyes.


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## RejZoR (May 12, 2010)

I don't get it why everyone starts to wave with hands in the air in all the panic when you mention Seiko and adjustment in the same sentence. I think this is pure BS introduced by Swiss fanboys. I've adjusted Sea-Gull and Orient Mako, same adjustment lever as Seiko and it was no problem. Got Sea-Gull adjusted pretty much to quartz watch accuracy where Mako is still pending because i got it to minus few seconds a day, but had no time to adjust it to other direction.


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

The whole "unadjusted" "adjusted" thing is a very vague concept, since there's no official definition for these terms.
Sometimes, people think that movements claimed as being "unadjusted" cannot keep time as well as those claimed being "adjusted".
The truth is, it's just a matter of few QC checks, that is all.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

RejZoR said:


> I've adjusted Sea-Gull and Orient Mako


In fact you have regulated your watches, not adjusted. Strictly speaking there is a difference. Adjusting involves fine manipulation of the balance wheel, hairspring and some other parts.
Tweaking the Mark XII: Part 2.2 - Part 1 - TimeZone


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

Drop of a Hat said:


> My opinion from owning all of them.
> 1. Miyota 9015
> 2. Seiko 6r15
> 3. ETA 2824
> ...


Agree. I would put the Miyota 9015 above the 6R15. Accurate and smoooooth.


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## DiverBob (May 13, 2007)

I have more faith in Seiko and Citizen than I do ETA.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

vokotin said:


> The whole "unadjusted" "adjusted" thing is a very vague concept, since there's no official definition for these terms.
> Sometimes, people think that movements claimed as being "unadjusted" cannot keep time as well as those claimed being "adjusted".
> The truth is, it's just a matter of few QC checks, that is all.


These terms are not vague at all. They define very specific actions that all watchmakers understand.

Regulation is the act of moving the regulator bar to make minute changes in the effective length of the hairspring.
Adjustment is the physical(human) act of manipulating various parts of the movement to optimize performance in all the positions and temperatures the movement is likely to be exposed to.

Quality control has little to do with adjustment; it is simply a procedure to spot defects, both mechanical and cosmetic prior to the complete watch being shipped out from the factory.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

RejZoR said:


> I don't get it why everyone starts to wave with hands in the air in all the panic when you mention Seiko and adjustment in the same sentence. I think this is pure BS introduced by Swiss fanboys. I've adjusted Sea-Gull and Orient Mako, same adjustment lever as Seiko and it was no problem. Got Sea-Gull adjusted pretty much to quartz watch accuracy where Mako is still pending because i got it to minus few seconds a day, but had no time to adjust it to other direction.


What you did was regulate the movement, not adjust it. Adjusting movements has been done for at least 90 years, and you can see engraved on the movements themselves whether adjustment was done or was unadjusted. It's hardly BS.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

at2011 said:


> In 100 years Seiko would've probably added a dozen new advancements to their stable of movements while the Swiss would be adding a couple more zeroes to their same old same old...and Seiko will still be inferior to dear Fanboy's eyes.


must be nice to be clairvoyant.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Sean779 said:


> must be nice to be clairvoyant.


I think he is referring to what has actually taken place. A lot of Seiko's firsts are documented in 'A Journey in Time'.
Other than the Daniels escapement, the Swiss have not really made any radical advances...they have only copied Seiko's inventions.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Quality control has little to do with adjustment


Adjustment IS quality control. First you check if the watch meets certain performance parameters and if not, you adjust it so that when it leaves the factory it does meet said parameters.


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

I think you have missed my post since the explanation you provided has nothing to do with it... so I re-state, in the hope you'll understand what I was trying to say.

I was referring to the the claim of movements marked as "unadjusted" or "adjusted".. AFAIK these terms have no official definitions, it's just a matter of degree and there are no standards for what can be marked as an "adjusted movement".

Again, "adjustments" are mostly matters of QC and strict tolerances, and believe it or not, even those movements marked as "unadjusted" have some degree of "adjustment".

FYI in the past the import tariffs were less for watches marked as being "unadjusted", just a costs reducing move.



Pawl_Buster said:


> These terms are not vague at all. They define very specific actions that all watchmakers understand.
> 
> Regulation is the act of moving the regulator bar to make minute changes in the effective length of the hairspring.
> Adjustment is the physical(human) act of manipulating various parts of the movement to optimize performance in all the positions and temperatures the movement is likely to be exposed to.
> ...


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> Adjustment IS quality control. First you check if the watch meets certain performance parameters and if not, you adjust it so that when it leaves the factory it does meet said parameters.


Adjustment is not QC; it is a process applied to the movement to make it meet a certain accuracy and precision level for a defined price point.
Once the movement is adjusted, it gets put into a watch.

QC is an inspection to make sure that the watch meets certain aesthetic criteria. The timekeeping has already been taken care of during the adjustment and regulation process. Adjustment is simply one factor of the QC inspection.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

vokotin said:


> IAgain, "adjustments" are mostly matters of QC and strict tolerances, and believe it or not, even those movements marked as "unadjusted" have some degree of "adjustment".


For example virtually all modern watches are "adjusted" for temperature. 100 years ago balance wheel was made with two metals (brass and steel) and there were a number of tiny screws to adjust such "bi-metallic split balance wheel" for temperature. After invention of special alloys like invar and elinvar the balance wheels (and hairsprings) don't change with temperature (or change much less) and all are "automaticaly" adjusted for temperarure (within certain parameters).


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Adjustment is not QC ... Adjustment is simply one factor of the QC inspection.


So, is it or is it not? ;-) There are of course different aspects and procedures (factors) involved in the QC and some manufacturers have (much) more strict QC than others (involving more factors).


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> For example virtually all modern watches are "adjusted" for temperature. 100 years ago balance wheel was made with two metals (brass and steel) and there were a number of tiny screws to adjust such "bi-metallic split balance wheel" for temperature. After invention of special alloys like invar and elinvar the balance wheels (and hairsprings) don't change with temperature and all are "automaticaly" adjusted for temperarure.


Old split wheel, bi-metalic balance wheels were not adjusted for temperature. The very nature of the bi-metalic composition took care of temperature variations by increasing or decreasing the circumference of the wheel by microscopic amounts.
The screws around the edge of the wheel were used to 'poise' the balance and 'adjust' it in various positions. The screws had nothing to do with temperature compensation.

Modern balance wheels are not adjusted for temperature, manually or automatically. They are made from materials that are temperature stable to start with.
These balance wheels are poised by removing tiny amounts of metal from the ring until they are perfectly balance. No adjustments required.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

vokotin said:


> I think you have missed my post since the explanation you provided has nothing to do with it... so I re-state, in the hope you'll understand what I was trying to say.
> 
> I was referring to the the claim of movements marked as "unadjusted" or "adjusted".. AFAIK these terms have no official definitions, it's just a matter of degree and there are no standards for what can be marked as an "adjusted movement".
> 
> ...


If 'adjusted' and 'unadjusted' have no official definitions why are they tarrifed differently? Even customs people recognize the difference!


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Old split wheel, bi-metalic balance wheels were not adjusted for temperature. The very nature of the bi-metalic composition took care of temperature variations by increasing or decreasing the circumference of the wheel by microscopic amounts.
> The screws around the edge of the wheel were used to 'poise' the balance and 'adjust' it in various positions. The screws had nothing to do with temperature compensation.


I'm terribly sorry but you are wrong (again).

Those screws in the balance wheel were there for temperature adjustment.
Here are two quotes to prove my claim.

[ELGIN] Watch Adjustments
"*just having a split balance isn't enough, however, to make the watch fully temperature compensated, you also have correctly place the timing screws.* This is done by timing the watch in an ice box (around 30°-32° F) and also in a hot box (around 90°-100°). Over time, Elgin developed tables that they could use to quickly find the correct locations of the timing screws based on the errors at these two temperatures. Some watches are marked as being "temperature adjusted" to show that this adjustment has been made and checked."

Pocketwatch 101 - Vintage Pocketwatch Adjustments

"Because the brass has a greater coefficient of expansion than does steel, an increase in temperature will cause the "limbs" of the balance to curl inward a tiny amount, thus increasing the rate of the watch. In cold temperatures, when the balance spring is stiffer, the limbs of the balance will curl outward a tiny amount, thus decreasing the rate of the watch as compensation for the increased stiffness of the balance spring. Pretty ingenious! *By changing the position of the weight-screws on the balance, a skilled watch adjuster could increase or decrease the amount of temperature compensation over a range of temperatures*."


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Modern balance wheels are not adjusted for temperature, manually or automatically.


So why is there indicated in some movements that they are adjusted for temperature. Please explain what exactly is adjusted (by your definition - manipulated by a watchmaker after the initial assembly of the movement) in a modern temperature adjusted movement - like a Rolex 3135.


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

Pawl_Buster said:


> If 'adjusted' and 'unadjusted' have no official definitions why are they tarrifed differently? Even customs people recognize the difference!


You are not going to win any friends posting such nonsense here.

Please, educate yourself on this matter.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

vokotin said:


> You are not going to win any friends posting such nonsense here.


Nor are you with your arrogance.


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## Jaymo (Dec 5, 2012)

I have no complaints about the 7S26 in my SKX007. 
I also have no complaints about the movement in my Orient Ray.


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

Sean779 said:


> Nor are you with your arrogance.


So are you calling me arrogant?
I have made lots of good friends here on WUS during these years of membership and they know who I am. 
I would suggest you, to re-read Pawl_Buster replies in this thread and then, we will see who the real arrogant is...


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> I'm terribly sorry but you are wrong (again).
> 
> Those screws in the balance wheel were there for temperature adjustment.
> Here are two quotes to prove my claim.
> ...


I stand corrected. I hadn't thought about the screws being adjustable to maintain the rotating mass at the circumference of the wheel.
Thanks for digging that stuff up...I'm always open to learning new things :-!


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

vokotin said:


> So are you calling me arrogant?


You had an arrogant moment.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

vokotin said:


> So are you calling me arrogant?
> I have made lots of good friends here on WUS during these years of membership and they know who I am.
> I would suggest you, to re-read Pawl_Buster replies in this thread and then, we will see who the real arrogant is...


So I am arrogant because you don't understand the meaning of the accepted definitions for horological terms? :roll:

I don't come here to make friends. My interest is in the technical aspects of watches and discussing them with other knowledgeable folks.

If friendships develop from that intercourse, great.
Friendships can't be demanded or forced...it just ain't gonna happen :-d

Sadly there is a certain element that get their jollies from spouting incorrect info and playing silly semantic games to make themselves feel impotent..er important.


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## tribe125 (Mar 7, 2006)

There are a number of posts in this thread which contravene rule 2:

2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.

Please keep your sharp tongues in check - they're spoiling an otherwise interesting thread.

Thank you.


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## at2011 (Jan 23, 2011)

tribe125 said:


> There are a number of posts in this thread which contravene rule 2:
> 
> 2. Members will be kind and courteous, and respectful to other members and the moderators. No direct or indirect personal attacks or insults of any kind will be allowed. Posts which antagonize, belittle or humiliate other members and/or the moderators will not be tolerated, nor will racism, sexism, bigotry or foul language.
> 
> ...


There was really nothing wrong with the brainstorming until vokotin lost it in post# 79. Not sure why he had to bring up the topic on "friendships" in an otherwise technical back and forth exchange of horological knowledge.


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## yifu (Oct 12, 2013)

This is the Seiko forum so it is unlikely you can get an unbiased or objective opinion on here, same goes for every brand specific forum on this site. 

Since it was my comment that was quoted in the first post, some have alluded to the (rather nasty) possibility that i don't have any Seiko, or indeed Japanese watches at all and am engaged in 'Swiss' favoritism. That is just not true, my first two proper watches were Seikos but since i got my my first Swiss movement i realised how much of the cheat the Seiko mid range offerings were. Being used to a rather consistently poor accuracy of 10-15 seconds fast a day or more if left unworn (due to the low amplitude of most entry level Japanese movements) Swiss precision was a shock to me. All my attempts to regulate the rate have gone terribly wrong, as anyone who has worked with gross regulator arms know, they are practically impossible to regulate with any certainty. I am now in the process of reducing my Seikos(which are all 7S26/6R15 based), and i've listed a Sumo up for sale on this very forum with the 6R15. I don't think i will buy another mid range Seiko again, my next Seiko would be a Grand Seiko. With Orient it will be a Royal Orient.

I doubt many of the Seiko defenders on here have any Swiss watches (or German etc.) or if they do indeed have both, the precision of their 6R15 were just the luck of the draw, so to speak.


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## yifu (Oct 12, 2013)

Let's not engage in blatant favoritism here, what are all of Seiko's movements based on? That's right the Swiss lever escapement, the Swiss have many other first under their stable
-First tourbillion
-First overcoiled hairspring
-First quartz watch prototype (although Seiko was the first to commercialize the concept
-Silicon hairsprings
-Temperature neutral alloys that won a Nobel Physics prize
-Ruby bearings
-Minute repeaters
-Perpetual calendars
-First waterproof watch (Rolex oyster)
-Automatic winding
-Co-axial (that's actually British BTW)
-High beat movements
And i am sure there are hundreds more that i left out. 


Pawl_Buster said:


> I think he is referring to what has actually taken place. A lot of Seiko's firsts are documented in 'A Journey in Time'.
> Other than the Daniels escapement, the Swiss have not really made any radical advances...they have only copied Seiko's inventions.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

Robotaz said:


> I have noticed that my Sumo movements both were all over the place over a small interval of time, but kept pretty good time if looked at over a long period. With the 2824, it really just boiled down to how it was regulated at birth.
> 
> As I've said before, the 6R15 is an accurate movement, but from my experience not precise. Conversely, the 2824 is a very precise movement, but usually not that accurate due to poor regulation. I can say from my experience, without a doubt, the 6R15 is much more susceptible to accuracy deviations due to how it's used and the environment it's used in. All that said, I do like the 6R15 almost as much as the 2824. It's very robust and has a great hand wind functionality to it. I will take a 6R15 way, way before I'd take a Miyota, and I actually find Miyotas to be just fine. So I like them all really. They have pros and cons, but are generally good movements.


That's an interesting observation. Are you saying that the 2824 has better positional variance and isochronism, but it might not be accurately regulated, whereas the 6R15 exhibits more positional variance and relies on being kept fully wound?


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## lethaltoes (Mar 5, 2013)

yifu said:


> This is the Seiko forum so it is unlikely you can get an unbiased or objective opinion on here, same goes for every brand specific forum on this site.
> 
> Since it was my comment that was quoted in the first post, some have alluded to the (rather nasty) possibility that i don't have any Seiko, or indeed Japanese watches at all and am engaged in 'Swiss' favoritism. That is just not true, my first two proper watches were Seikos but since i got my my first Swiss movement i realised how much of the cheat the Seiko mid range offerings were. Being used to a rather consistently poor accuracy of 10-15 seconds fast a day or more if left unworn (due to the low amplitude of most entry level Japanese movements) Swiss precision was a shock to me. All my attempts to regulate the rate have gone terribly wrong, as anyone who has worked with gross regulator arms know, they are practically impossible to regulate with any certainty. I am now in the process of reducing my Seikos(which are all 7S26/6R15 based), and i've listed a Sumo up for sale on this very forum with the 6R15. I don't think i will buy another mid range Seiko again, my next Seiko would be a Grand Seiko. With Orient it will be a Royal Orient.
> 
> I doubt many of the Seiko defenders on here have any Swiss watches (or German etc.) or if they do indeed have both, the precision of their 6R15 were just the luck of the draw, so to speak.


Hi Yifu. I'm curious to know which swiss precision pieces you picked up that so completely shocked you and turned you off Seiko's 6R15 offerings. Cheers!


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

yifu said:


> This is the Seiko forum so it is unlikely you can get an unbiased or objective opinion on here, same goes for every brand specific forum on this site.
> 
> Since it was my comment that was quoted in the first post, some have alluded to the (rather nasty) possibility that i don't have any Seiko, or indeed Japanese watches at all and am engaged in 'Swiss' favoritism. That is just not true, my first two proper watches were Seikos but since i got my my first Swiss movement i realised how much of the cheat the Seiko mid range offerings were. Being used to a rather consistently poor accuracy of 10-15 seconds fast a day or more if left unworn (due to the low amplitude of most entry level Japanese movements) Swiss precision was a shock to me. All my attempts to regulate the rate have gone terribly wrong, as anyone who has worked with gross regulator arms know, they are practically impossible to regulate with any certainty. I am now in the process of reducing my Seikos(which are all 7S26/6R15 based), and i've listed a Sumo up for sale on this very forum with the 6R15. I don't think i will buy another mid range Seiko again, my next Seiko would be a Grand Seiko. With Orient it will be a Royal Orient.
> 
> I doubt many of the Seiko defenders on here have any Swiss watches (or German etc.) or if they do indeed have both, the precision of their 6R15 were just the luck of the draw, so to speak.


Without being nasty; I have to say that this post is just as full of incorrect and misleading info as the first. Blaming a Seiko movement because you were not able to properly regulate it really is kind of lame.

The 7s26 is an entry level movement, plain and simple. Expecting it to run like a mid grade Swiss, German, Chinese or even Seiko is pure folly. It is built to a pricepoint and offered for exactly what it is; a utilitarian movement capable of good time keeping out of the box or better time keeping if properly regulated. It will never be a chronometer as it wasn't designed or built that way.

The 6r15 by contrast is an evolutionary step up the ladder and is only found in lower mid tier watches(Seiko and otherwise). In it's basic form, it is not chronometer capable either but some of the other 6r calibres are definitely capable.

I wish you luck with your entry level Swiss, German, whatever purchases but don't be surprised, like many, when they don't all measure up to your unrealistic expectations.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

yifu said:


> Let's not engage in blatant favoritism here, what are all of Seiko's movements based on? That's right the Swiss lever escapement, the Swiss have many other first under their stable
> -First tourbillion
> -First overcoiled hairspring
> -First quartz watch prototype (although Seiko was the first to commercialize the concept
> ...


Again with the incorrect info...Thomas Mudge, an Englishman invented the lever escapement. It was later further developed by several people, among them some Swiss watchmakers.
George Daniels was the inventor of the co-axial escapement; not some Swiss guy.
The tourbillon was developed around 1795 by the French-Swiss watchmaker Abraham-Louis Breguet from an earlier idea by the English chronometer maker John Arnold; so, again not a Swiss invention.

I don't have the time nor interest to go through your whole list but suffice it to say most of it can be refuted.

Please get your facts right otherwise you continue to come across as a Swiss fanboy :-(


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

lethaltoes said:


> Hi Yifu. I'm curious to know which swiss precision pieces you picked up that so completely shocked you and turned you off Seiko's 6R15 offerings. Cheers!


There is no need to entertain him further as he has demonstrated his lack of real knowledge on the subject.


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## mleok (Feb 16, 2010)

yifu said:


> This is the Seiko forum so it is unlikely you can get an unbiased or objective opinion on here, same goes for every brand specific forum on this site.
> 
> Since it was my comment that was quoted in the first post, some have alluded to the (rather nasty) possibility that i don't have any Seiko, or indeed Japanese watches at all and am engaged in 'Swiss' favoritism. That is just not true, my first two proper watches were Seikos but since i got my my first Swiss movement i realised how much of the cheat the Seiko mid range offerings were. Being used to a rather consistently poor accuracy of 10-15 seconds fast a day or more if left unworn (due to the low amplitude of most entry level Japanese movements) Swiss precision was a shock to me. All my attempts to regulate the rate have gone terribly wrong, as anyone who has worked with gross regulator arms know, they are practically impossible to regulate with any certainty. I am now in the process of reducing my Seikos(which are all 7S26/6R15 based), and i've listed a Sumo up for sale on this very forum with the 6R15. I don't think i will buy another mid range Seiko again, my next Seiko would be a Grand Seiko. With Orient it will be a Royal Orient.
> 
> I doubt many of the Seiko defenders on here have any Swiss watches (or German etc.) or if they do indeed have both, the precision of their 6R15 were just the luck of the draw, so to speak.


The eccentric screw ETAchron regulator does make it easier to regulate an ETA 2824-2. When regulating a watch with gross regulator arms it is easy to mess up the beat error on your watch, and a visible movement of the regulator arm corresponds to a significant change in the rate of the movement. But, this doesn't imply anything about the intrinsic accuracy of the watch, and if you have a Timegrapher, regulating a 6R15 should be no more difficult than using the ETAchron regulator.


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## Mike_Dowling (May 4, 2013)

My Valjoux 7750 is +1 a day, my 6R15 SARB has gained 15 seconds in two days, the 7750 was probably just luck of the draw and +7-8 seconds a days is fine for me from the Seiko.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Pawl_Buster said:


> I stand corrected. I hadn't thought about the screws being adjustable to maintain the rotating mass at the circumference of the wheel.
> Thanks for digging that stuff up...I'm always open to learning new things :-!


Having had time to review what is actually taking place here, I have to withdraw my 'stand corrected' statement.

The screws around the circumference of the balance wheel are strictly for poising the balance wheel. Here is why they are not used for temperature compensation.
The whole point of the bi-metalic spit wheel balance is to compensate for differences in the circumferential mass of the wheel over a range of temperatures. This is achieved by having the bi-metalic 'arms' either flexing outward and increasing the effective diameter of the wheel or inwards to decrease the diameter. This is all precalculated by knowing the temperature coefficients of the metals used and the arc/length of the 'arms'.
Placing screws around the edge of the wheel to compensate for temperature would be counter productive as the whole point of the split wheel is to take care of temperature differences.

That only leaves the sccrews with on purpose; to poise the wheel by providing a mechanism to perfectly balance the wheel or at least to optimize it on various positions. Temperature plays no part in their existence.

The quotes in those links are made from incorrect suppositions evidenced by a lack of understanding of the physics of the system.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> The quotes in those links are made from incorrect suppositions evidenced by a lack of understanding of the physics of the system.


Here we go again. Now you are telling us that you know better than those two references (and many more that can easily be googled, including watchmakers manuals and textbooks) and that we should believe you, even thou you are not capable to provide a single reference. It's called _Argumentum ab auctoritate_ (argument from authority) and is considered a logicall falacy. In your case, self-authority, which is even worse.

Of course you also cannot explain why there are screws only in those bi-metal split balance wheels and not in a modern ones. And how is temperature adjustment done in the first place, if not with those screws.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> Here we go again. Now you are telling us that you know better than those two references (and many more that can easily be googled, including watchmakers manuals and textbooks) and that we should believe you, even thou you are not capable to provide a single reference. It's called _Argumentum ab auctoritate_ (argument from authority) and is considered a logicall falacy. In your case, self-authority, which is even worse.
> 
> Of course you also cannot explain why there are screws only in those bi-metal split balance wheels and not in a modern ones. And how is temperature adjustment done in the first place, if not with those screws.


In case you missed it; that is exactly what I'm saying. Just because a bunch of people say the wrong things does not make them right.

I already explained how the temperature is compensated for and it is not the screws no matter how many 'experts' claim it to be.
Once more for you and those who missed it.
The bi-metalic split wheel was developed to compensate for the gross expansions or contractions of the metals used in simple wheels. By using to dissimilar metals with different coefficients of expansion, they can be bonded together to react in a perfectly predictable way. As the temperature changes the metals will expand or contract at different rates causing the bonded structure to warp or bend. When you make a split wheel with this bi-metalic construction, you can engineer it so that the ends of the wheel circumference that are cut or split from the rest; will bend outward or inward with temperature changes. The size of the wheel, the length of the split sections and the two materials used can all be designed to mitigate the expansion or contraction over a given temperature range.
The reason for doing this is because if the wheel grows in diameter, the movement will slow down as the inertial mass on the wheel moves farther from it's center and visa versa with cold. Screws are not part of this process.

Because the balance wheel needs to be 'balanced' or poised, there has to be a method of correcting it; just like balancing the tires on your car. The screws are used like the lead weights attached to the rim of your car's wheels and moved around until balance is achieved.
The screws are placed around the circumference of the balance wheel in calculated positions and are then either screwed in or out to affect the inertia at the circumference of the wheel. If they were somehow magically used to compensate for temperature then as soon as the bi-metalic portions of the wheel expanded or contracted, the compensation would be thrown out of wack. But that doesn't happen does it.

The reason that modern balance wheels don't have screws is because they don't need them. Modern materials are used which are almost immune to temperature variations. They are extremely stable. Modern manufacturing practices have made it possible to produce almost perfect balance wheels that nee only extremely small amounts of adjustment; ie material removed.
These balance wheels are poised by removing a small amount of material from the outside edge of the wheel to put it into perfect balance. This can be done by a fine drilling process or with laser trimming...


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

You do realise that now you are being just ridiculous with your imaginary (and false) "explanations", don't you? It's not even funny anymore.

Here is one more reference to that account.
Under the Loupe/The Balance Wheel - Alliance Horlogère


> A compensated balance is composed of a circular rim with a steel crossbar. The rim is bi-metallic, being steel inside and brass outside, and cut through at two opposite points. Brass is more affected by heat than steel, and in a rise of the temperature the outer brass will lengthen more than the inside steel. The effect of this is to curve each half of the rim inwards and bring the weight of the balance as a whole nearer to its centre. This causes the watch to go faster, and, if the amount of the inward movement of the rim is exactly sufficient, will compensate the tendency of the watch to lose. These balances are weighted by screws fitted in a series of tapped holes all round the rim. By moving the screws nearer to the free ends of the two segments of the rim the effect of the balance is increased ; by moving them towards the fixed portions the effect is diminished. *Therefore adjusting for temperature consists in trying the watch in cold, then in heat, and moving the screws according to the performance of the watch, *until its rate in cold (40 to 50°F) is equal to its rate in heat (80 to 90°F).


OK, and one more for good measure.
The Balance Wheel


> Temperature Considerations. Even clock pendulum rods can be effected by temperature as they typically expand with temperature. That is why wood is often used for the rod. Theoretically, a pendulum can be considered as a point mass on a very light rod. Then the period of the pendulum for small amplitudes depends only on its length. But, if the rod expands, the pendulum will be longer and the clock slows down. For a pendulum, this is a small effect. Various devices, such as the gridiron pendulum have been invented for temperature compensation for clocks.
> For watches, the temperature effect is quite large. Temperature causes the balance and hairspring to expand. In addition, a steel hairspring loses strength (softens) with temperature. The net effect is that an uncompensated watch will lose time with an increase in temperature. A typical watch may lose about 10 seconds a day for only a two degree Fahrenheit temperature increase. This is a lot! Thus, much research was aimed at temperature compensation. The bimetallic balance wheel was the result of much effort and is quite effective. T*he bimetallic balance wheel is made of two strips of metal, brass on the outside and steel on the inside. The wheel is cut so that we effectively have two arms. Since brass expands faster than steel, the arms move in with a rise in temperature. This speeds up the watch to compensate for the loss due to the softening or loss of elasticity of the steel hairspring. Screws are next placed on the balance wheel to provide for precise adjustment. There are typically twice as many holes as screws. By moving the screws nearer the cut which is the end of the arm, more compensation is achieved. *


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

Okapi001 said:


> You do realise that now you are being just ridiculous with your imaginary (and false) "explanations", don't you? It's not even funny anymore.
> 
> Here is one more reference to that account.
> Under the Loupe/The Balance Wheel - Alliance Horlogère
> ...


Both of those explanations were written by people who do not understand why the screws are there. They are not for temperature compensation; they are there to balance the wheel.

If you move the screws around to try and make some magical compensation for temperature, the wheel will be thrown out of balance and the watch will not perform very well in some positions.

You can google and post all these mistaken ideas about why the screws are there but it does not change the facts or physics.

The bi-metalic aspect of the wheel is for temperature compensation while the screws are there for balance.
This is no different than the example of the car wheel I gave you. Move the lead weights around to try an compensate for tire temperature;ie tire circumference and you throw the whole thing out of balance. It is no different with the balance wheel; if you adjust or move the screws to try compensating for temperature; you throw the whole wheel out of kilter. The split bi-metal arms take care of the temperature compensation and the screws are use solely for balancing the wheel.

Instead of constantly digging up incorrect assumptions about how a bi-metalic split wheel actually functions; why don't you tell us in a precise manner why and how these screws affect the wheel when the temperature changes.
And don't use those quotes above because they are incorrect.

You still don't seem to have grasped what the two basic and separate concepts at work here are.


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## liwang22 (Sep 13, 2012)

Can't we all just get along? I've had good experiences with 2428, 6R15 and Miyota 9015 especially if I don't think about them too much. I just happen to think 6R15 watches have coolest cases. I love the Shogun, Sumo, Cocktail Time, SARBs and Tsunami. Fun names too.


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## holance (Nov 19, 2009)

My 6R15 lose about 2s to 5s if I don't manually wind it to full. With full winding, only +2 to -1s/day.


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## Sean779 (Jul 23, 2007)

It's kinda funny the OP's title of this thread, asking the loaded question: "Have you stopped beating your wife" without establishing that he beat his wife at all.


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

The screws can control the amount of temperature compensation.



Pawl_Buster said:


> Both of those explanations were written by people who do not understand why the screws are there. They are not for temperature compensation; they are there to balance the wheel.
> 
> If you move the screws around to try and make some magical compensation for temperature, the wheel will be thrown out of balance and the watch will not perform very well in some positions.
> 
> ...


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

nullzorz said:


> The screws can control the amount of temperature compensation.


Please explain to me how that is accomplished.


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> Please explain to me how that is accomplished.


A screw on a balance wheel is intended to adjust the poise / balance, adjusting the balance on a wheel is analogous to changing the length of a pendulum, adjusting the balance on a temperature compensated bimetallic wheel will change how much compensation the wheel is providing at any given temperature. It will not provide perfect compensation at every possible temperature, but it will allow the balance wheel to provide more accurate compensation at a given temperature or range of temperatures.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

nullzorz said:


> *A screw on a balance wheel is intended to adjust the poise / balance, adjusting the balance on a wheel is analogous to changing the length of a pendulum*, adjusting the balance on a temperature compensated bimetallic wheel will change how much compensation the wheel is providing at any given temperature. It will not provide perfect compensation at every possible temperature, but it will allow the balance wheel to provide more accurate compensation at a given temperature or range of temperatures.


That part is correct. But you don't seem to have grasped that the action of the bi-metalic part is the temperature compensating mechanism. You cannot put screws around the circumference and adjust them to accomplish anything more than balance/poise.
Back to the car wheel analogy. We place weights of specific mass at specific points around the wheel to put it into balance/poise. If we move those weights(or move screws on a balance wheel) we will throw the system out of balance. If we change any of those weights(screw the crews in or out) once again we destroy the balance. So it should be obvious to you that adjusting those screws for anything other than balance would be counter productive.

This is a very simple concept; why are some of you having such a problem grasping it. Heck, even figure skaters understand it.

So, once again, the screws are not used for temperature compensation; they are used exclusively for balance/poise.


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

Pawl_Buster said:


> That part is correct. But you don't seem to have grasped that the action of the bi-metalic part is the temperature compensating mechanism. You cannot put screws around the circumference and adjust them to accomplish anything more than balance/poise.
> Back to the car wheel analogy. We place weights of specific mass at specific points around the wheel to put it into balance/poise. If we move those weights(or move screws on a balance wheel) we will throw the system out of balance. If we change any of those weights(screw the crews in or out) once again we destroy the balance. So it should be obvious to you that adjusting those screws for anything other than balance would be counter productive.
> 
> This is a very simple concept; why are some of you having such a problem grasping it. Heck, even figure skaters understand it.
> ...


In other words, how's this sound, if you don't like how much temperature compensation is occurring at a specific temperature or range of temperature, you can use the screws to change the balance at that temperature, thus controlling how much compensation is in effect at that temperature. That's why I said they can control the temperature compensation, not provide temperature compensation.


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

nullzorz said:


> In other words, how's this sound, if you don't like how much temperature compensation is occuring at a specific temperature or range of temperature, you can use the screws to change the balance at that temperature, thus controlling how much compensation is in effect at that temperature.


You cannot adjust the screws without upsetting the balance. It is physically impossible...move a weight on the car wheel and you get shimmy because you've thrown it out of balance.
Screws are for balance, split bi-metal is for temperature.

If the screws were actually used for temperature compensation, there would be no need for the bi-metal composition and the split wheel. In which case all the compensation could be done with just the screws. But then it would never be balance.
There just isn't any way around it.


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

The wheel is never perfectly balanced, try as they might, even with bimetallics, it's not humanly possible at this time to make a wheel that's perfectly balanced at all temperatures a watch will see. The screws are to fine tune the temperature compensation at certain temperatures. You are correct, the screws don't provide temperature compensation, they are there to provide control over the temperature compensating aspects of the bimetallic wheel. I'm grasping you, but you have to grasp that a bimetallic wheel is not perfectly balanced at all temperatures.


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## OldeCrow (Feb 11, 2006)

now that I am done laughing... and pointing and laughing... I've decided I can't contribute anything constructive to this thread but it is the funnest thread I have read today! 

and for the record the screws have nothing to do with temperature compensation! 

If I was really ambitious I would insert a bunch of over sized animated smiley faces here but I'm going to go hold down the couch and admire my latest non temperature adjusted seiko...

still laughing... and pointing and laughing...


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## Pawl_Buster (Mar 12, 2007)

nullzorz said:


> The wheel is never perfectly balanced, try as they might, even with bimetallics, it's not humanly possible at this time to make a wheel that's perfectly balanced at all temperatures a watch will see. The screws are to fine tune the temperature compensation at certain temperatures. You are correct, the screws don't provide temperature compensation, they are there to provide control over the temperature compensating aspects of the bimetallic wheel. I'm grasping you, but you have to grasp that a bimetallic wheel is not perfectly balanced at all temperatures.


The purpose of bi-metalic split wheels is not to balance; it's to compensate for changes in temperature by changing the circumference of the wheel during expansion and contraction. That is all the construction is intended to do.

Without the screws, this wheel is not and cannot be balanced. It has to have the screws so that the balancing can be achieved.

The screws are there to balance the wheel, pure and simple. They have nothing to do with temperature compensation period.

I will no longer continue in this discussion as it has become completely obvious that some people either don't want to understand the concepts or are only interested in arguing for the sake of arguing :-(


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## nullzorz (Oct 29, 2013)

Honestly, I know nothing of watch bimetallic balance wheels. I'm more into thermocouples. But when I heard that my high-end swiss watch will be useless during the zombie apocalypse, I figured I better learn how to service it. 

If you plot the period of oscillation of any balance wheel over a range of temperature, it will go in and out of spec (that is if it ever even crosses the perfect period point). If you plot the balance of any balance wheel over a range of temperature, it will also go in and out of balance, temperature compensated or not (that is if it ever crosses the perfect balance point). The period of that wheel is affected by the balance of that wheel, the average period of that balance wheel can be adjusted by adjusting the average balance over a temperature range, and that can be done using screws in the balance wheel. 

It is possible that the screw could change the rate of expansion or contraction in the bimetallic balance wheel if it intersects both layers of the different metals, or if the screw itself is contributing to the expansion or contraction of the wheel, in which case the contribution would depend on the depth of the screw into the wheel and/or the amount of screw in contact with the wheel. 

You're saying the screw does not change the amount of expansion or contraction happening in the bimetallic balance wheel, and I agree. I'm saying it changes the balance curve over a temperature range, and it's period of oscillation over a temperature range, that's all.


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## vokotin (Jun 2, 2011)

Pawl_Buster said:


> *The screws are there to balance the wheel, pure and simple. They have nothing to do with temperature compensation period.*
> 
> I will no longer continue in this discussion as it has become completely obvious that some people either don't want to understand the concepts or are only interested in arguing for the sake of arguing :-(


This statement is as false and incorrect as another one of yours here.. "Watch adjustment can be only made by human hand." I can go on and on..

But judging by the confidence of your replies in this thread and the way you belittle the others showing off your superior knowledge on this subject, no true explanation might ever be possible for you.

Quitting the discussion is the only way you have to save a further embarrassment.


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## Okapi001 (Apr 9, 2013)

vokotin said:


> Quitting the discussion is the only way you have to save a further embarrassment.


I'm afraid Pawl is beyond redemption in that regard;-) He is convinced that he knows more than all watchmakers of the world and that all watchmakers' manuals and texbooks are wrong in how the bimetalic balance wheel is adjusted for temperature. He is not even funny any more, just pathetic.


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## DM71 (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm disappointed to see some members I have respect for, taking the confrontational route like that. :-( Just too bad, this could have been an interesting topic...

Anyways, to get back on topic, I have over a dozen Seiko with the 7SXX or 6R15 and other calibers, about a dozen of watches with ETA (2824,2836, 7750,2893, 2892), a few Russian movements, a few Miyotas and one Chinese. So, my knowledge is limited technically, but I have what I think to be a good sample of movements and here are my observations.

Seiko movements: I had four Seiko that were about +25 sec/day out of the box. 3 of them were 7SXX and one was 6R15. All others, were within about +- 8sec/day with my Sumo at about -3sec a day. After regulating the one that were off, all keep great time and all do not seem very sensitive to positional error, meaning that they are pretty consistent in their time keeping no matter if worn or not. I find the regulating system of Seiko (and others using the adjustment lever) to be a pain in the but, requiring lots of tuning since the adjustment system is less precise than a screw (IMO), but once done, they keep amazing time and I'm pretty happy with them.

ETA:The only Swiss movement I had that was off by 25sec a day (a lot of watches I had to regulate were very close to +25 sec a day, which I find curious, why 25 sec?), was a Sellita SW200 and the watch is long gone. All that other ETA movements in my collection are very precise out of the box and all are not very sensitive to positional error. Very consistent time keeping.

Miyota 82XX and 9015: All of them keep good time within a few second a day. Have two citizen that were very precise out of the box, had a few boutique watches that were not so good but great after regulating. The main difference I see with my 9015 compare to my ETA 2824, is that even if the movement keeps excellent time, it's much more sensitive to positional error. It's sometimes +2, then -4 then +6. All great figures for me, but not always the same.

For me, they are all great movements in their price range. I like each one of them for what they are and appreciate diversity in the collection.

As for the long argumentation about the screws on the bi-metallic balance wheel, I found a nice article on Timezone and when I always thought the screws were only to balance the wheel, it's now unclear to me that it's the case with bi-metallic balance wheels.

THE BALANCE WHEEL OF A WATCHby Walt Odets

The balance and balance spring are the "regulating organs" of the mechanical wristwatch, and it, therefore, seemed appropriate to begin my series of technical essays here--specifically with the balance wheel itself (I will discuss balance springs in a following piece). It is the precise and regular back and forth oscillation of the balance that operates the escape lever (anchor fork) and thus via the escape wheel, fourth wheel, third wheel, "center" wheel, and mainspring barrel regulates the unwinding of the mainspring. The balance and spring are known as a "rotary oscillating system." Although we impart meaning to a watch--it "shows" the time or even the moon--as a mechanism it is simply a way to regulate the unwinding of a spring. It is the balance wheel (and spring) that ultimately conducts this controlled operation.
Of course, there are many details that significantly complicate this operation if the watch is to be "accurate," which is to say, unwind its mainspring in some consistent relationship to the rotation of the earth on its axis. Most of these complications originate in the balance spring. The spring is necessary to propel and reverse the balance. Having swung to a fully clockwise position, the balance wheel has "wound" the balance spring, and it is the force of the spring unwinding that reverses the direction of and propels the balance in the opposite direction, to the fully counter-clockwise position. In this position, the wheel has fully unwound the balance spring, and the force of the spring contracting again reverses and propels the wheel.








A DEFINITION OF TERMSEach _swing_ of the balance (in one direction) releases one tooth of the escape wheel and thus moves the entire movement (including seconds hand) one "increment." The terms _half-swing_ and _swing_ are sometimes used interchangeably. _Full-swing_ means from rest to fully counterclockwise, to fully clockwise and then back to rest._Beats per hour_ always refers to half-swings (or swings), so that an 18,000 bph watch is making 9,000 full swings per hour. _Amplitude_ refers to the number of degrees of rotation of the swing in either direction. Dial up, a watch in good condition is expected to have a swing between approximately 270 and 315 degrees.
THE ISSUE OF TEMPERATUREWhile I will leave the many complicated details of the balance spring aside for the present, it is still necessary to say that conventional steel springs are very sensitive to temperature. Thus, when steel springs were all that were available, it was seen that a rise in temperature caused an increase in the thickness of the balance spring, an increase in the height and length of the spring, and a reduction in the "modulus" (elasticity) of the spring. The total effect of increasing temperature on the spring decreases the rate of the watch (a slower daily rate), largely because of the change in modulus (the other three effects tend to cancel each other).







Because there was no way, until the 1930's, to control the response of the balance spring to temperature, all balance wheels in watches of any quality were "compensation" balances. A compensation balance compensates for the effects of temperature on the balance spring (and does not, in contrast to common opinion, compensate for temperature effects on the wheel itself). The most common compensation balance is a bimetallic, split balance (as shown in Figure 1), also known as the Earnshaw balance. The rim of the wheel is made of brass on the outside layer, steel on the inside. Because brass expands less with increased temperature than steel does, the rim ends (the "cut" ends) curl inward with a rise in temperature. This effectively smaller diameter of the balance wheel increases its speed, and offsets the temperature effects on the spring. Figure 3 illustrates a compensation balance at high temperatures. Conversely, the cut ends curl outwards with a drop in temperature, increasing the effective diameter of the balance and slowing the watch.
THE SCREWED BALANCEFigure 1 shows not only a bimetallic compensation balance, but a _screwed_ balance. These screws around the perimeter of the balance can be moved in and out, can be moved to different holes, and small washers can be placed under them to increase their weight. They are used initially to _poise_ the balance, which is to say, remove heavy spots and







_balance_ the balance. When the screws near the cut ends of the rim are moved in or out, they effect the amount of temperature compensation the balance provides. This allows matching the compensation effects of the balance to the temperature error of the particular spring. Adding weight near the cut end of the rim (or moving screws to holes near the cut ends) increases the compensating effect of the balance for both heat and cold.
Figure 2 shows an illustrious variation on the cut, bimetallic screwed balance, the _Guillame_balance. The Guillame balance is used in observatory trial watches because of its superb accuracy, but is never used in production watches because of its fragility. Made of nickel alloy and brass layers, it expands non-linearly and is the only balance that can compensate for so-called _middle temperature error_. (When a watch is adjusted for minimum error at temperature extremes, it tends to run fast at moderate temperatures). The Guillame balance is easily recognizable because the rim cuts are further from the balance arms that in the more common Earnshaw balance. The Guillame balance is always used with a plain steel spring and can commonly provide accuracy of 0.02 seconds per day per degree centigrade. This is approximately 15 times the accuracy of the best conventional bimetallic balances.


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## tribe125 (Mar 7, 2006)

I've had enough.

The data is pretty much complete, and it's not hard for an impartial observer to decide the matter for themselves.

It's also apparent that one or two posters are mainly concerned with expressing animosity.


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