# WARNING! DO NOT WIND UP YOUR SEIKO with cal. 4R36 MANUALLY REGULARLY or...



## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi to everyone!

If you've read the part "About me", you'll notice, that my knowledge about mechanical and/or automatic watches is somewhat very limited to say at least. But, I do follow a simple rule. I educate myself, ask others, that know more and are more experienced, or the best variant:

I try to get advice from the BEST professionals in their "trade", if I'm in doubt of something or if there is something I simply do not know.

So was the case with my new* Seiko 5 SPORTS SRP551K1* with the *caliber 4R36* inside.

I opened a thread around a week ago, asking the question:

*Can the caliber 4R36 be REGULARLY MANUALLY wound with NO LONG-TERM consequences for the watch (and this question applies also to doing so partially*, for example 10 - 15 clockwise turns of the crown every night)*?*

Why did I ask this? Because a simple FACT, which is TRUE for another watch I own:

By treating a *TISSOT Visodate* (*2016 model* with *caliber 2836-2*) in such a way, you will DEFINITIVELY damage the watch or break something in the long run.

I received an answer from a member, that in contrary to the Visodate, this could be done without consequences.

*WRONG!*

Today I was talking over a phone with the chief mechanic for the SEIKO brand in Slovenia, which has more than 30 years (or even 40) of experiences with those watches (and of course also with the other more "prestige" models as GRAND Seiko, beside that, he has also all the needed experiences for the *ORIENT* brand, which are "famous" for their accurate and very efficient 'in-house' movements).

Without going into details about his long and technical explanation (some of it, I even didn't understand), the BOTTOM LINE was:



> "These watches (and the vast majority of others, not only Seikos, but also other brands) if AUTOMATIC (even if they offer the possibility of manual winding and hacking) ARE NOT BUILT WITH SUCH "RUGGEDNESS" as MECHANICAL ONLY WATCHES ARE. If you will manually wind them (even partially), YOU WILL SHORTEN THE LIFESPAN of the watch in the best case OR BREAK SOMETHING in the worst!"
> 
> (He explained exactly what and why, but I didn't understand it all.)
> 
> ...


This guy WITHOUT A DOUBT knows what he is talking about and I'm without a doubt going to follow his advice.

I wanted to share this knowledge with the community, because the manuals (at least in my case) are somewhat "ambiguous" about this topic, but you can of course do, as you like.

Regards.

P.S.

* in my case this means in the WORST CASE, that my watch is 13 - 15 seconds fast over the period of 24 hours (acceptable) instead of 9 or 10 seconds (what the heck I'm even complaining), if fully wound MOST of the time.

Also, I forgot to mention, that he emphasized, that the *Seiko 5* model (as a brand) is meant (and was also advertised in this way) to be WORN at ANY and ALL possible times by working people, who do get their hands "dirty" (and those people certainly won't have problems with their watch not being wound sufficiently).


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## tiha (Jul 15, 2011)

If it is true why such "feature" isn't mentioned in the user manual? Something like "do not wound manually unless really necessary".


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## cajun1970 (Feb 14, 2009)

There are many varying opinions on manually winding. While I am not sure about it being a bad thing, I rarely manually wind my watches with hacking/winding feature movements. To get them running I gently move them back and forth to get the rotor turning for 30 seconds or so. Then, I set the time/date and put it on my wrist. Again, not sure what the truth is on this.

I am a little confused on your point about Seiko 5. A Seiko 5 with a 7s26 movement won't be any tougher to do "any and all work" than say an SKX007 with that same movement. I wouldn't do any manual work that involves impact/shock (carpentry/hammering, chopping wood, etc) with a mechanical watch.

Oh, and lastly.... welcome to the forums!


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Sorry, I dont buy this for a second. this seems like paranoid rumors that fly around before you have been into watches for a while, and have educated yourself. kind of like the people who say that "dynamic water pressure" from swimming will flood your 200m dive watch. 
as with anything and everything in life, moderation is key. I have exclusively Seiko Automatics (well 90% at least) and I have had TONS of 4r36/nh36/35 movements in the past. Never had a single problem. If it hasnt been worn in a while and has stopped, i give about 25-30 winds, and then let the rotor take over from there.Im not winding it for an hour, just the recommended amount from the manual. Im not going to live in a world of paranoid delusions that make me afraid to hand wind my watch (which is made to be hand wound!) this is too much.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

tiha said:


> If it is true why such "feature" isn't mentioned in the user manual? Something like "do not wound manually unless really necessary".


This is a DIRECT quote of a paragraph from one of their manuals in PDF format. I really don't know what to think about it:



> "Relatively steady accuracy can be obtained by wearing the watch on the wrist frequently for the self-winding type and winding up the mainspring fully everyday at a fixed time to move it regularly for the wind-up mechanical type."


What DO YOU think about this?

I think, that it is very ambiguous and POORLY translated. Similar type of language can be found in every other manual I found on the internet and in the one I received with the watch. And this is about it for instructions on manual winding.

The poor quality is obvious and ABSENCE of answers on such questions is telling by itself.

This is THE reason I contacted the customer service and by trying out quite a few phone numbers to find the REAL experts is completely enough to me.

If I have to choose between instructions which are by all accounts VERY POORLY written and lack important information AND trusting a renowned watchmaker (technician), it is no-brainer to me, which option will I choose (or decide to trust).

But ULTIMATELY, it is up to YOU, as I have written in the post, if you choose to believe the source and reasons I provided.

And there is more.

When I purchased the *TISSOT Visodate*, there were instructions missing ALL-TOGETHER. I found out GENERIC ones on the internet and it turned out, they are the only ones that exist. And the watch is considered to be entry luxurious, costing over 500 EUROS.

Only the seller mentioned me very briefly, not to wind up the watch regularly - without ANY proper explanation. It was the customer service, that gave me a few days later an explanation on MY PERSONAL REQUEST. And they also told me, that NO other instructions as generic exist.

But good to know, because I learned something from this lesson, although it was a costly one:

In MOST cases (but not all !!!) the sellers (companies) interest is to SELL you the product. Every other thing comes SECOND. Including customer service.

In this case I chose to believe the person on the other side of the phone. Why? He NEVER asked WHERE I bought the watch. He was very pleased, that someone took its time, to actually learn something new. And he was not in a hurry. Though chief technician with plenty of work, he took his time to explain his case into detail.

Those were reasons COMPLETELY enough for me.

How do YOU choose to do it's up to you, because I can't really explain, why such poor quality instructions.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

> "Im not going to live in a world of paranoid delusions that make me afraid to hand wind my watch (which is made to be hand wound!) this is too much."


ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is forcing you. And this is the LAST time, I try to convey something that SOME people will JUST MAYBE find useful. If not, here's a quote from my original message:



> "I wanted to share this knowledge with the community, because the manuals (at least in my case) are somewhat "ambiguous" about this topic, but you can of course do, as you like."


And by the way:

You must be a very bitter person, because there is REALLY no need for offensive language as yours.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Not bitter, but your first posts here are trying to induce panic with these claims. you have presented no evidence to back up your claims, just a phone conversation you had with someone. if its proven to be true, then fine ill buy that, but i dont think its fair to come on here and try to start a movement panic, your first post is like a sensational headline, promising doom and gloom to your watch if you hand wind it. thats just crazy.

here is an explanation from the watch maker over at bernard. https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/why-is-it-important-to-wind-my-automatic-with-the-crown/
my problem is that you are presenting this as absolute fact, when in fact it is not been proven, and there are many threads about this.
you yourself admit in your first post that you have little to no knowledge of movements, yet you are stating all of this as if you are an expert, it just doesnt add up.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

you know what, you're right, there is no sense in arguing, you are entitled to your opinion, and have every right to share it. i shouldnt take my frustration out on you. carry on.


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## Unsolved_Mistry (Mar 15, 2016)

wind it till it dies and then find an NE15


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

Ok, let's have it YOUR way:

Here is a contact and you can use *ALL the resources* I'll provide here, which will CONFIRM, that I did not make up this claim and that it came from an* OFFICIAL SEIKO source for my country in EU*:

The name of the company: *URCA d.o.o.*

Website for service: Servis - urca.si

Contact phone: *051 450 460* (Mobile, without country code for Slovenia, EU - which is +386), Stationary:* 01 439 55 00*

Contact person: *Mr. Brane* (chief SEIKO technician/watchmaker for Slovenia, EU) - the person with which I had the conversation in question;

Contact E-mail: *[email protected]*

This company is the *OFFICIAL SEIKO REPRESENTATIVE* (and offers *CUSTOMER support*) for *Slovenia, EU*

EVERYONE can verify this (and EVERYTHING I have written and what was said including the credentials of the person) by all means he or she finds necessary and I really hope (ask) that at least someone verifies that and posts the findings HERE in this thread (I assume, we have members from Slovenia, so I'm making a plea to them, to do me a favor, because NO ONE will call all those names as YOU did, just short of that I'm a LIER.

By doing so, everything, what was posted in my first message in a QUOTE (name of the person, his credentials, claims he made,...) can be *INDEPENDENTLY* verified.

I just don't know, if he HIMSELF speaks English. But it does not matter, surely at least SOMEONE from his team does. And please *Mr. PowerChucker* DO IT YOURSELF. Write an e-mail to them and VERIFY EVERYTHING what was said - to the letter.


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## Richard- (Jan 1, 2011)

Hogwash.......

You only join the forum and come in screaming...... FIRE FIRE, ALL IN CAPS... DRAMA DRAMA. 

In all the posts about the 4R36 I have not seen one where a forum member has said they killed it by hand winding. Also saying you spoke to the guy in the Seiko service centre does not mean that you found the most knowledgeable person. Do a search and you will find loads of posts reporting problems with the service centers, in my case it took them over 6 months to regulate my 6R15 properly. 

Any watch movement runs at its peak when fully wound, and manufacturer standard + or - are issued also for fully wound movements. 

Sorry I choose to disagree with your over dramatic post which of course you are entitled to write but also does not mean that it is correct.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

it doesnt matter, because im going to hand wind my watches, because even if this is true, my watches are not going to break in the time that I own them. in the span of time that it might take to "ruin" my Seiko's, I will have lived years and years, and owned many watches. I dont believe this is a short term damaging procedure(hand winding a had wind-able watch). of course everything mechanical will wear out over time, but they are made to be hand wound. im not calling Slovenia for this. the burden of proof is not on me, its not my job to prove your point. thats your job. as I told you in my last post, its your opinion, do what you want, im not going to argue this. I dont believe this, and thats my opinion.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

> "Oh, and lastly.... welcome to the forums!"


Thank You. You made my day a little bit nicer and easier, but that is obviously my inherent character "flaw", because I take things a little bit too personally (or perceive them as a personal "attack").

Obviously you are someone, who can look and see behind the "curtain", because I admit, that a thread, which starts with the title "WARNING" and an exclamation mark is really a little bit dramatic.

But if my post is CAREFULLY read (a rarity) I really had nothing but good intentions. And I surely don't post messages to "make a name for myself by making sensational posts" (as was suggested). I'm not a teenager anymore for long years now and make my name with more important things, that are kept private.

But it is an irony, that someone implies EXACTLY that and this with my first post.

Maybe the proverb: "*The road to Hell is paved with good intentions*" would be a good example for capturing the mood I have created here with my post (but as everything, this is also a matter of interpretation);

Why I'm writing this?

Because the opposite is closer to the truth.

In the post, which was really among my first ones, I proposed someone to take a step back and react a little less harsh, because he almost "yelled" that the company CREATIONWATCHES should be blacklisted immediately.

Anyway, thank you again for the warm welcome (though this is not my first post, nor a first thread).

Regards. |>


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## RSDA (Sep 19, 2010)

Toning down the freneticism, ALL CAPS, and *bolds* may win you more friends here in the long run. I'm guessing that you may find that one or two people on WUS who have a bit more knowledge about the subject of manual winding than you or your contact do.


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## Dec1968 (Jan 24, 2014)

I want to see what everyone says here and see what proof is offered in either direction. If the OP did his due diligence and spoke to an internal employee in the know, that's interesting. 

Curious who else can be brought into this conversation with data to support it either way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

Dec1968 said:


> I want to see what everyone says here and see what proof is offered in either direction. If the OP did his due diligence and spoke to an internal employee in the know, that's interesting.
> 
> Curious who else can be brought into this conversation with data to support it either way.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


the link i posted on the first page has a blog post by a watch maker from bernard watch co. talking about the benifit of winding the watch with the crown to achieve proper accuracy and amplitude of the main spring. he uses a timegrapher to demonstrate this with a customer who brought in a watch with low power reserve. it was an auto, but he never fully wound it with the crown, so the performance suffered greatly.
I understand that all things that are mechanical will eventually wear out and break, but in the normal life span of a watch, I think winding is benificial to the timekeeping of the watch. now, I know ther are exceptions to everything, so this is a generalization.


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## patenko (Nov 28, 2016)

The empirical evidence suggests that the situation is not a dire as the OP suggests. Otherwise, there would be quite a few more "I damaged my movement by winding my watch" threads.

And to the OP, I wholeheartedly agree with a previous post in this respect: making frequent use of a variety of emphasizational editor mechanics undercuts your message, and at best makes your posts hard to read.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

> "...making frequent use of a variety of emphasizational editor mechanics undercuts your message and at best makes your posts hard to read."


Noted. An advice worth listening to.

Obviously, I'm fairly new here, but not only to this forum - I have a "hardwired" tendency to keep a certain distance from social platforms of any-kind and I use them only as a "secondary tool", where there is no other way around them.

Maybe hard to understand in those days, when virtually most other people can't cope by not looking and/or updating their Facebook page at least once per day.

I value privacy and try (maybe in vain) to preserve as much as possible of what we call personal and whenever possible, face to face contact.

Maybe this is the reason, that things (such as this thread) did not turn out as originally intended?!


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## Richard- (Jan 1, 2011)

Seeker978 said:


> Maybe this is the reason, that things (such as this thread) did not turn out as originally intended?!


Based on your last couple of responses I can see it was not your intention to create a sensationalised post. Unfortunately that's that the way it came across and why I responded in the way I did.

I believe if you had written a post with the intention to create a discussion or debate on the subject it would have been better received.


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## hankaarons (Jul 8, 2011)

Seeker978 said:


> "Relatively steady accuracy can be obtained by wearing the watch on the wrist frequently for the self-winding type and winding up the mainspring fully everyday at a fixed time to move it regularly for the wind-up mechanical type."


To me this means to maintain time accuracy:
- wear an Automatic watch frequently
- wind a non-automatic at the same time each day. (This does not mean to manually wind an auto)


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## patenko (Nov 28, 2016)

Seeker978 said:


> Maybe this is the reason, that things (such as this thread) did not turn out as originally intended?!


Don't worry about it. Sometimes it's good to make an entrance.


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## awayne (Aug 21, 2016)

I dunno. I never heard this about Seikos before. 

I did read a post from a guy who had a new Tissot LeLocle, and he said the broke it by hand winding it too much not that long after he got it. He said Tissot fixed it under warranty anyway.

It does follow from reason that winding an automatic watch by hand would be more stressful for it than winding it by wearing it or having it in an auto-winder.

But I've never hear of any problems being caused by winding, at least not in the short-term, except for that one guy with the LeLocle.


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## Calibrel (Feb 4, 2015)

Sorry, but Newtonian dynamics is against you, mon frere. For what it's worth, and I'm not trying to be bellicose, but you also havn't educated yourself as you suggest others should. You're simply taking the word of someone else (by your own statement you said you didn't understand what he was saying). Granted, you went out of your way and tries to go to a decent source, but you're still dependent on this strangers knowledge.

The forces required to overcome the spring tension and wind the watch, be it via the rotor or the stem, are equal. The stem is designed to withstand these forces (not saying there aren't weak points). The gear train must be able to withstand and overcome the amount of force the mainspring puts out in order to operate properly (the pallets and escape wheel taking the brunt of this), if not the watch wouldn't run. What exactly is not "robust or tough enough" in these modern, yet somehow under engineered watches? Most automatics are based off of mechanical designs anyway, not the other way around. So if the mechanical one is able to withstand this, why not the automatic? It simply doesn't make sense.


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## serge70 (Nov 16, 2010)

I quite like handwinding my Seiko 5,at least to get it going,so will plough on regardless.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

the 4R36/NH36 has a smooth, nice feeling manual wind too. its much better feeling than some others i have had.


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## timetellinnoob (Sep 23, 2010)

I thought i'd read there was a clutch or something that prevents over-winding/damage. I don't know if maybe that's a higher end feature, but up to this point I thought 4r's had it since they had manual wind. i might be grossly misinformed about that since my quick scan over the thread didn't seem to show anyone saying that...

either way i hardly hand-wind my #1/SRP775 because i've worn it so much the past 11 months, i've never needed to. done it a couple times for fun, but only a couple 'zzzp zzzp zzzp's and crown is back down.

i'm _also_ not intimately knowledgeable about the movements on a part-to-part basis beyond a couple of the main features and things i've read about modding -- i just haven't taken the steps to learning it all for myself. =) but i did think that clutch was a thing.... hm....

i _do _think some people can't seem to relax when it comes to watches.


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## stockae92 (Feb 10, 2006)

Well, there is no clutch in manual wind Panerai or Speedmaster. You wind it until it stops. If you over wind, you break something. 

Anyway, never heard of manual winding an automatic would damage the movement. I am not too worried about it. I always manual wind an automatic when I first get it going and set the time, to give it some decent power reserve. Will continue to do it. I will keep you guys posted if I break a watch. ;-)


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## Unsolved_Mistry (Mar 15, 2016)

It feels good hand winding the 4r36, strong and sturdy and never had any problems. However my Visodate does feel sketchy so I wind it till it moves then get my shake on.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk


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## awayne (Aug 21, 2016)

I think there's a certain type of collector who wants to keep almost every watch he ever buys, ideally forever. I believe I fall into this category.

So I want to do what will cause my autos to last as long as possible without needing service

I now have three autos. I've been generally wearing one daily for several days at a time and keeping the other two going by hand winding until I decide to switch watches. 

I thought about getting a winder.

But after reading threads in various forums about winders and hand-winding, I think the best thing to do to minimize wear is to follow this protocol:

1. pick a watch.
2. get it going (it sounds like a few winds is okay, or by only shaking if really paranoid)
3. set the day/date and time.
4. wear it for several days until tired of it or the time is off by too much.
5. go to step 1 (with a different watch)


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## AC81 (Feb 24, 2013)

With regards to the eta 2824, you can find plenty of circumstantial evidence, and people on these forums that have had problems with handwinding. Whether it's from poor lubricarion or a design problem, that's probably for another time. But you can see, that movement, clearly can do better in that regard.

You can't say that same at all about Seiko. And it's not like you can say that they are sold in small numbers, or that this forum is quiet. Most of the micro brands end up using Seiko movements as they're reliable. So are we expected to change our habits, when in years here we've not seen many (any???) posts about hand-winding failure in a Seiko auto movement? 

Personally, i've far too many watches to where them for more than a day or 2. I'm always swapping. And if they are a hand-winding auto, i'll give them a short wind to get them going. Just like i always have.


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## AC81 (Feb 24, 2013)

timetellinnoob said:


> I thought i'd read there was a clutch or something that prevents over-winding/damage. I don't know if maybe that's a higher end feature, but up to this point I thought 4r's had it since they had manual wind. i might be grossly misinformed about that since my quick scan over the thread didn't seem to show anyone saying that...
> 
> either way i hardly hand-wind my #1/SRP775 because i've worn it so much the past 11 months, i've never needed to. done it a couple times for fun, but only a couple 'zzzp zzzp zzzp's and crown is back down.
> 
> ...


The 'clutch' is actually a bridle, best way to describe it is the mainspring isn't fixed to the outside of the barrel, but has a piece ot the spring attatched that's trying to bend opposite to the shape of the barrel. As the tension goes too high, the spring slips on the inside of the barrel.

The weakness typically comes from parts/ gears not being designed with the strength of manual wind watches. 
But as it's a problem with certain aspects of the 'design' of the movement. The problem is specific to certain designs. Such as the eta 2824. That shouldn't mean all autos, or all eta movements even do, or are likely to have that problem.

So, to further add to the post. The eta 2824 has a problem (as far as i understand at least) with the gear i've circled. 
The gear goes round a post, which after manual winding for a while (this mabee a problem with poor lube between the gear and the post??? ) will damage the post that's holding it in place.









I'm not trying to dis the 2824 here, it's really a good movement. But being one i've serviced means i have a little understanding of the movement. 
But this 'problem' is not one i've encountered. So much of this is based on what i've seen people saying in these forums.

But compared with a movement in the same family, the eta 2801/04 manual winders have a different design in the same location.


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## LightDot (Jan 11, 2016)

Seeker978 said:


> Hi to everyone!


Hi and welcome!



> ... Today I was talking over a phone with the chief mechanic for the SEIKO brand in Slovenia, which has more than 30 years (or even 40) of experiences with those watches (and of course also with the other more "prestige" models as GRAND Seiko, beside that, he has also all the needed experiences for the ORIENT brand ...


Chief mechanic... Hm? Seiko's authorized dealer and service centre in Slovenia is Sten Time, not Urca.

Urca, on the other hand, is one of the service shops and they do repair Seikos, among other brands. But an exclusive for Seiko..? Did mr. Brane actually say or imply this..? Anyway, it's good to hear that mr. Brane has experience with Orient too. Hm, now I also wonder in what context did he mention Grand Seikos. An odd conversation you've had with him, or it just so seems.



> Without going into details about his long and technical explanation (some of it, I even didn't understand), ...


Well, if you could go into details, we could discuss the technical merits of his opinion. But, it's quite understandable that it isn't so easy to catch everything in a telephone conversation, especially if some concepts and expressions are new.

One can also completely understand the need to find a knowledgeable and approachable watchmaker, an expert who can provide good advice. And passing the knowledge on, learning, having a good time while discussing watches... well, that's what we're all here about. So no need to find yourself discouraged. Many of us here can get a bit passionate at times but even if something comes across as harsh, it's seldom in anything but good faith.



timetellinnoob said:


> I thought i'd read there was a clutch or something that prevents over-winding/damage. I don't know if maybe that's a higher end feature, but up to this point I thought 4r's had it since they had manual wind. i might be grossly misinformed about that since my quick scan over the thread didn't seem to show anyone saying that...


Sure, it has a clutch, a mechanism that allows the mainspring to slip against the barrel surface, when it reaches a certain load. Any self winding movement without an overwind protection would incur serous damage. Manual winding watches can live without it if they must but automatics can't.

Just to mention, one can damage a watch even with such a protection. Regular service plays a role here, keeping the slipping surfaces properly lubricated is important, or the clutch might fail to slip. The tell tell sign, for example, is the erratic operation of the escapement when doing something vigorous, like sports. The watch would run fast, have excessive amplitude, start banking and... well, it wouldn't end happily.


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## Whitershadeofpale (Apr 17, 2016)

Horse feathers!


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## Drubbing (Sep 3, 2016)

Gees what a rumble about nothing. The title of the thread is clearly meant to be click bait and attention seeking.

Seiko - being the sort of company they are - are hardly likely to build a major function into a movement like winding, that if used, would damage said watch. Especially when those movements are used in high volume selling watches.

If they had, this forum would have picked up such a design fault years ago.


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## M1K3Z0R (Dec 3, 2012)

Drubbing said:


> Gees what a rumble about nothing. The title of the thread is clearly meant to be click bait and attention seeking.
> 
> Seiko - being the sort of company they are - are hardly likely to build a major function into a movement like winding, that if used, would damage said watch. Especially when those movements are used in high volume selling watches.
> 
> If they had, this forum would have picked up such a design fault years ago.


This, /thread.

It's an automatic, clearly the handwinding function is secondary. This is also a machine, and as much as some people expect it to run forever without service, that's not how machines are treated if there is an expectation of longevity; it will inevitably experience wear/tear somewhere at some point and will need to be serviced.

Just enjoy your watch, if you can't handle the stress/worry around wear/tear then stay away from automatics and go quartz.


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## dscustoms (Sep 8, 2016)

Holy overreaction. Dude you need to calm down. Brand new to the forum but yelling at everyone. Guess what, wind your seiko all you want. If it doesn't outlive you, fixing it will cost what, $70 for a complete new movement? Life is too short to freak out about nonsense like this.


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

Overreaction indeed.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

> "Chief mechanic... Hm? Seiko's authorized dealer and service centre in Slovenia is Sten Time, not Urca."


Yes and no.

In place where I live, StenTime has quite a few shops in the nearby area and I had direct experience with them quite a few times.

So I decided to call them and eventually I got a phone number from the director (or he has some other EXECUTIVE function).

Over the phone I did not ask him what his OFFICIAL position is, but his name is Mr. Tomaz (I forgot the surname).

I explained to him my dilemma, but after a few minutes (not before asking me why I did not buy a watch at their company ) he plainly admitted, that my question is too technical for him and I should seek out the man, who is mentioned in my first post, gave me his number and said to ask specifically for him and explained, that for SERVICING part for the SEIKO (Slovenia) is "in charge" this particular company (Urca d.o.o) and the watchmakers/technicians working there.


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## Tickstart (Oct 30, 2015)

Your sensationalist way of writing instantly makes me confident this is bollocks.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

Hi.

The only "yelling" I see here, are in the posts FOLLOWING my first message in which certain people (by all accounts not all - and I'm very thankful for that) are bashing me personally, without giving explanation why am I wrong (or this man, I talked with - because I myself do not have the necessary experience and knowledge - something admitted in the first sentence of my post).

I ALREADY admitted, that the title "WARNING" and an exclamation mark were too dramatic.

I also apologized for the way, that my original intent did not turn out exactly as intended.

Why can only SOME people be civilized here. First they welcome me, next they give me suggestions for my next post... You got the picture. And this is how the things SHOULD be.

So again I do not yell! In every other post I made in this thread I try to be calm and 'make up' for making the "mistake" of being a bit dramatic at first, yet the "punches" keep coming and I have more important things to do, as to apologize to EVERY SINGLE PERSON, who can not see beyond the post and only 'lashes out' at me.


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## Seeker978 (Dec 20, 2016)

> "And if they are a hand-winding auto, i'll give them a short wind to get them going. Just like i always have."




If you read past my too "dramatic" title and a few sentences, this is EXACTLY what was suggested to me by the technician.

P.S.

With all the other post I made, to change my wrongly perceived intentions I would (but it is not possible) alter just one more thing:

The title.

Instead of: "WARNING and an exclamation mark" I would start with: "A word of caution...." and I'd leave the exclamation part out.

If this does not "satisfy" all those members that know nothing else than insults, I really do not know, what I'm doing in this forum and maybe I really do not belong here.

Because in the end all those people from who I received only insults and really "low punches" are right:

What on earth could I (just look at my collection - 3 automatic watches with a net worth of LESS than 1000 US dollars) or a watchmaker with more than 30 years of experiences with SEIKO could possibly "give" to this community?!

According to the responses of not such a small minority - NOTHING AT ALL.


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## Tickstart (Oct 30, 2015)

The prolific use of capital letters doesn't help your case either.


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## Kinesis (Dec 29, 2014)

"I don't know what I'm feeling right now. This is the most painful thing I've ever seen." -Jim Nantz from "Tin Cup"

I think that if you can filter through the flair of the OP, informative courtesy was their only motive. It was spawned by concerns with an ETA movement that unfortunately manifested to a !SEIKO! movement with a similar feature of hand-winding. Mechanics or presentation wasn't nearly as big a mistake as trying to merge onto the brand-loyalty freeway at rush hour. Newbie got jumped in by the F21 gang, hard.

-roy "capital letters shouldn't hurt your feelings" macavoy 





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## appleb (Sep 30, 2015)

One could probably handwind a 4R36 movement for hours on end in an attempt to purposely mess it up, and there would be negligible damage (if any) to the winding stem.

How many hours in total do you expect to wind a typical Seiko watch over it's entire lifetime?


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## Mr. James Duffy (Feb 2, 2016)

I now want to buy a deep-discounted, two-tone Seiko Neo Classic SRP dress watch with the 4R36 movement, attach the crown to a Dremel rotary tool and let'er rip!


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## vanilla.coffee (Feb 27, 2011)

I had coffee with McCauley HALF AN HOUR AGO.


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## RSDA (Sep 19, 2010)

Oh boy.


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## mattonthewater (May 9, 2015)

Your "Chief Mechanic" is an idiot OP.


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## chenpofu (Feb 21, 2015)

Is fake news now penetrating watch forums?


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## jrtoyman (Dec 18, 2016)

Interesting discussion here. 
Got my attention right away on this thread with the "WARNING" title.

I'm no watch expert and just a newbie here so I'm in the learning process and read as many thread as I can and they are really very helpful and informative.
I do hand wind my Seiko 5 everyday even if I don't wear it and had been doing it for 8 years now, so far have no problem on the watch that I know about.


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## sutherland (Aug 12, 2008)

Removed.


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## brandon\ (Aug 23, 2010)

Why DO YOU type like *THIS*?


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## Likestheshiny (Nov 28, 2011)

> Seiko - being the sort of company they are - are hardly likely to build a major function into a movement like winding, that if used, would damage said watch. Especially when those movements are used in high volume selling watches.


The same could be said about ETA, and yet that problem is rather well-attested (although still relatively uncommon).

However, I think that's probably the important difference. Plenty of people have reported on ETA movements that eventually needed a repair because their manual-winding components are not robust enough. We don't hear that about Seiko movements, and Seiko certainly produces enough watches that we would. The Op might be right, and the 4R36 has a weakly-reinforced manual wind mechanism. But, in practice it doesn't seem to be resulting in damaged watches.


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## SunnyDaze (Feb 5, 2012)

OP - Put down the slivovitz! 

It's great to see another Slovene on here. My family is from Stara Oselica / Sovodenj.


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## VicLeChic (Jul 24, 2013)

First time I hear of such risk with automatic mechanical watches.

Until a watchmaker confirms this and substantiates it with some evidence and explanation, I'm not going to give it too much credit.


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## awayne (Aug 21, 2016)

If anybody noticed my previous post, then I want to say that totally forgot that my sarb033 (6r15c) keeps horrible time if it's not given a "boost" wind before I put it on after letting it run down. Unless I wind it up (like 50 half-turns) then it looses about 14/sec a day, even if I wear it all day every day. If I give it a boost, then it keeps good time (usually +4/sec a day).

Here's a story about a Breitling that did more or less the same thing https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/why-is-it-important-to-wind-my-automatic-with-the-crown/


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## knightRider (Jan 6, 2013)

The booklet supplied with my Bostok automatic stated that you should wind the watch 20 turns...


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## cold_beer839 (Jul 25, 2011)

I wind the piss out of all my watches and have for years. In fact have a 4R36 in my collection that has ran non-stop for over a year, I wind it every single night.

OP, double the meds and chase with a few beers.


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## Calibrel (Feb 4, 2015)

What is WRONG with all *you* people?! WHY DO YOU THINK I HAVE AN ATTITUDE??? I don't. It's has *NOTHING *to do with the way I type and the _perceived inflection _that I create.

 It's obviously all of you and your unwillingness to get educated!!!1!


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## 59yukon01 (Aug 27, 2014)

I smell BS! I'll always trust my personal experience over "supposed" experts. Wind away........nothing else to see here.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

awayne said:


> If anybody noticed my previous post, then I want to say that totally forgot that my sarb033 (6r15c) keeps horrible time if it's not given a "boost" wind before I put it on after letting it run down. Unless I wind it up (like 50 half-turns) then it looses about 14/sec a day, even if I wear it all day every day. If I give it a boost, then it keeps good time (usually +4/sec a day).
> 
> Here's a story about a Breitling that did more or less the same thing https://www.bernardwatch.com/blog/why-is-it-important-to-wind-my-automatic-with-the-crown/


I know what you mean, I linked that same story on the first or second page. its an interesting read on the benefits of hand winding an auto.


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## brandon\ (Aug 23, 2010)

Calibrel said:


> What is WRONG with all *you* people?! WHY DO YOU THINK I HAVE AN ATTITUDE??? I don't. It's has *NOTHING *to do with the way I type and the _perceived inflection _that I create.
> 
> It's obviously all of you and your unwillingness to get educated!!!1!


Ok. Now you're just laying on the trolling extra thick. And for that, the Billy Goats Gruff salute you.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

I've been starting all my automatics with hand winding for almost a decade of collecting now and have never had an issue nor has a watchmaker slapped me in my face.


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## knightRider (Jan 6, 2013)

Jacob Casper said:


> I've been starting all my automatics with hand winding for almost a decade of collecting now and have never had an issue nor has a watchmaker slapped me in my face.


I'd like to see any watch maker slapping someone in the face


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## SunnyDaze (Feb 5, 2012)

I know one who quite possibly would.

I take a verbal bashing every time I wear one of my kinetics or quartz watches into his shop. That being said, he's a great guy and a very competent and experienced watchmaker.


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## awayne (Aug 21, 2016)

PowerChucker said:


> I know what you mean, I linked that same story on the first or second page. its an interesting read on the benefits of hand winding an auto.


I'm sorry I didn't see that you already posted it.


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

awayne said:


> I'm sorry I didn't see that you already posted it.


its fine, no need to be sorry, I was just agreeing with you. I think that story has a lot of merit. im glad others have seen it.


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## Spencer PK (Nov 10, 2009)

Absolute nonsense.

The mainspring must be wound in order for the watch to run. How it is wound makes no difference. The idea that hand-winding a watch shortens the lifespan is laughable. 

Source: professional watch repair dude, specializing in Seiko


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## Jidomaki (Aug 28, 2017)

Interesting...I recently sold a Tudor 74000N that I had no issues with (was around +6sec/day), but the buyer told me it was "heavy" when winding, and said he needed it to get it serviced. Then sent me a link from this site about that particular ETA movement, and people were saying how autos are not built to hand wind. I only wind my watches just enough to get it going, set it, then wear it...


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

Have not had any issues with handwinding Seiko automatics but 
Hand winding a 2824 movement has definitely caught the attention of many owners.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/eta-2824-winding-issue-2322506.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/f6-2824-handwinding-thread-866942.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/eta-2824-2-winding-question-847082.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/why-soprod-a10-considered-better-movement-2679010.html It is a Seiko design, possibly the old Seiko 4L25.

Damaged 2824 wheel photo:










Relative size of the wheel comparison, it's tiny and vulnerable:










https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/number-crown-turns-required-fully-wind-new-2824-2-a-808693.html

Pertinent quote:
"However: don't wind up your 2824. Rather, it is designed to be autowound, with a manual wind as a backup, not as primary winding method.

Why? The teeth of the winding mechanism are not hardened, as they were designed to only be used as a backup, rather than as the primary winding method. If you make a habit of winding up the 2824 manually, you will slowly start to degrade the hand-wind mechanism and it will, after an indeterminate time, fail. If you want a hand-wind watch, get one with the 2804 instead, as the winding mechanism here is hardened properly (if I am not mistaken, the winding mechanism of the 2804 uses stainless steel gears to wind, while the 2824 uses simple stamped steel gears for the same purpose)..........

Seriously: I have had a 2824 watch fail on me (Fortis Pilot watch) because I was in the nervous habit of giving the movement a few winds whenever I felt like it. The winding mechanism really is not designed for long-term hand winding, and after wearing it for 3 years constantly a gear lost a tooth, which ended in the hairspring and damaged it enough for both the winding mechanism and the hairspring needing to be replaced. The watchmaker I used at the time said that there was no reason for it to have failed unless I was fiddling with it. ETA designs their movements very carefully to control costs and as the winding mechanism on the 2824 is a back-up, rather than a prime component, it was not designed to be used as a prime mechanism.

This does not apply to the 2893 or the 7750."

None of this has stopped me from buying 2824 or SW200 watches as I personally have not yet had any issue with my several dozen of them.


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## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

Well it appears hand winding is an issue in some watches. 

I would like to thank the OP for taking the time out to bother warning us about an issue he was concerned about, if he had not i would not have ended up reading the post from Yankeexpress which i did find interesting.

We all learn about new things by making mistakes and the OP did at least state he had no knowledge but was just passing on what he heard so i took his post as just that and nothing more. As a result there have been some constructive replies that have been worth reading...and some that may well put off a new member from spending more time here which would be a shame.


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## DonJ53 (Mar 1, 2017)

He was winding you up :roll:


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## cave diver (May 8, 2017)

"To improve the accuracy of a mechanical watch, it is recommended that you wind up the mainspring every day, at a fixed time, even if the watch is a self-winding type."

Source: https://www.seikowatches.com/support/faq/mechanical.html


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## Tickstart (Oct 30, 2015)

ok troll


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## ohjnxg12345 (Jul 9, 2017)

Chill guys. But definitely OP needs to chill. everyone have differing opinions so OP should just accept that fact.

Honestly Seiko movement are rock solid, i don’t really mind winding it daily if needed. cheap to replace 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Dude is mental, it's a $30 movement, wind it all you want.


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## Richard- (Jan 1, 2011)

I have a solution, lets not buy anymore handwind movements and we can all live in total happiness with the 7S26 |>

Hard to believe this silliness is still carrying on a year after the original post o|o|


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## skunkworks (Apr 5, 2017)

Richard- said:


> I have a solution, lets not buy anymore handwind movements and we can all live in total happiness with the 7S26 |>
> 
> Hard to believe this silliness is still carrying on a year after the original post o|o|


Omg, lol, the op is a year old? I didn't look. What are we doing... watch collecting is supposed to fun not something to stress about


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## yessir69 (Oct 22, 2008)

To the OP - well done on the technical mastery of caps-lock and bold.


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## sblantipodi (Jul 14, 2013)

I Wind my watches often because I swap them often and never had problems


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## KoolKat (Apr 21, 2013)

cave diver said:


> "To improve the accuracy of a mechanical watch, it is recommended that you wind up the mainspring every day, at a fixed time, even if the watch is a self-winding type."
> 
> Source: https://www.seikowatches.com/support/faq/mechanical.html


Thanks, this is reassuring, at least for seiko movements that manually winding won't hurt.

Based on this and an earlier helpful post from Yankeeexpress, it appears that it depends on different movements.

1. Seiko auto movements appear designed to handle manual winding often.

2. ETA2824 auto movements appear NOT designed to handle often manual winding. I personally have been advised by a very reputable Omega AD when I purchased an ETA based omega that I should avoid manually hand winding it to avoid damaging the movement.

I am interested to learn from others how tolerant other movements are towards often manual winding.


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## mattbod (Jan 30, 2018)

I personally hardly ever have to hand wind any auto I have had. The Seiko magic lever is pretty efficient and my Seiko 5 starts up with only very little movement. I have an old Swiss made Bulova and Vostok that are autos and sometimes if they have been sitting i give them two or three winds and that is it. Auto hand winding and hacking is not something I miss on my 5. I started a thread on buying a Seiko SKX007 over the more expensive 4R movement watches. TBH unless the 4R offers significant accuracy and reliability over the 7S26 or 36 I will stick to the cheaper movement. It is great: keeps good time and very much wear it and forget it  If you like winding buy a manual wind. I have a couple and enjoy the daily ritual. A Seiko for me is a good value,hassle free and well engineered rugged daily wear.


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## Richard- (Jan 1, 2011)

Funny the movement that's always used to beat up on the 6R15 is the eta 2824 and now it turns out you can't wind the thing without breaking it. Nearly 60 years that movement is in production and now its "you cant wind it" :rodekaart

Starting to make that 50 hour power reserve 6R15 look good |>

So funny, you just can't make this stuff up :-x


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

I guess there will always be some doubt in my mind as to how robust the manual winding mechanism is on an automatic watch, primarily due to a couple of ETA and Sellita fiascos, but of all the watches out there, I think the 4R36 is about as robust as it gets. I don't hesitate to wind mine.


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## Dav25 (Jan 18, 2016)

⌚

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## snarfbot (Sep 29, 2013)

WHOA, SLOW DOWN THERE OP! it is VERY hard to take you SERIOUSLY, when you CAPITALIZE all these WORDS! *ESPECIALLY* *WHEN BOLDED!
*
i dunno what your angle is and i dont care, but i am 100% sure that i cant trust you.


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## MarkieB (Feb 25, 2017)

Can't stand keep using capitals to emphasis a point, sounds like the ramblings of a maniac (reads a bit like it too!)


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## zaratsu (Jul 27, 2013)

MarkieB said:


> Can't stand keep using capitals to emphasis a point, sounds like the ramblings of a maniac (reads a bit like it too!)


I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU MEAN. THIS LOOKS TOTALLY NORMAL TO ME, I SPEAK LIKE THIS EVERY DAY.


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## knightRider (Jan 6, 2013)

If watch manufacturers did not want you to hand wind their watches, they would not have provided a mechanism to wind them. 
I wind all my watches ~20 turns, ETA, Seikos, the lot. Never had a problem.


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## daveswordfish (Aug 17, 2010)

First, agree with others that OP was probably just trying to share info, at least with the original post.

Problem is, like most things we hear, even from so called experts, we need to think before we claim it as true.

My thought...If a watch has a manual wind feature, you should be able to wind it. Period. Don’t care how many threads, blogs, posts, watchmakers in Slovenia, etc say otherwise.

Manual winding is the most basic function of a watch. Pretty sure manufacturers have it down by now. Even on automatics with hand wind.

If a company like Tissot or Seiko actually released something that would break if used as intended, it would be fixed or pulled from the market. It wouldn’t be an issue in movements that have been in widespread use for years.

In the end, it’s about as silly a discussion as “watch winders...good or bad?”

Let’s actually start that “hand wind....good or bad?” Uh...no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

daveswordfish said:


> In the end, it's about as silly a discussion as "watch winders...good or bad?"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BAD.........at the stupid prices that are charged, the mark up must be astronomical.


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## Carl.1 (Mar 27, 2006)

daveswordfish said:


> In the end, it's about as silly a discussion as "watch winders...good or bad?"
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


BAD.........at the stupid prices that are charged, the mark up must be astronomical.


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## Tickstart (Oct 30, 2015)

a watch winder must be one of the simplest things to build yourself I can imagine. I've always wondered if the permanent magnet electric motor affects the watches at all


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

Tickstart said:


> a watch winder must be one of the simplest things to build yourself I can imagine. I've always wondered if the permanent magnet electric motor affects the watches at all


I've read accounts of people saying their winders magnetized watches.


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## Nanook65 (Mar 2, 2017)

I read the 1st few pages and then on to the last. It seems that OP was not trying to stir up emotions, but for what ever reason (probably had something to do with the way the OP wrote the post and responded) he did. Here is my take on it. I have 20+ mechanical watches. I rotate them around a bit but some get lots more wear than others. I do not have a watch winder, nor will I buy one so when I want to put one on that has run out of power I wind up set it and wear it until I get tired of it and then I "rinse and repeat" 

If/when I wear an automatic for several days in a row I never even consider winding it. Why would you? Isn't that the purpose of the rotor? What do I know............

Once I am done writing this I am not going to spend even 2 seconds thinking about or worrying about if I wind my "intended to be hacked and hand wound" seiko 4rxx movements will they break. You know what, if they break I will buy another for $40 or so USD and just replace it, or not. Why anyone would worry about this "potential problem" is beyond me.

Pretty sure all of us that have been hand winding our automatics when needed will be ok


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## Robotaz (Jan 18, 2012)

OP’s trying to help people. Not everyone knows the history of autos and their failed winding mechanisms. Not everyone wants to replace movements. I appreciate that he has caused probably a lot of people to at least read up and form their own opinions. He did, in fact, help at least a few people. Cut him some slack.


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## fallingtitan (Mar 19, 2018)

can anyone tell when their 4R is fully winded?

my miyota 9015 i can hear it clutch. the 4R i have no clue when to stop. what gives!


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## BuyIndioOates (Jan 31, 2017)

Interesting debate. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## jacer35 (Jul 10, 2017)

PowerChucker said:


> Sorry, I dont buy this for a second. this seems like paranoid rumors that fly around before you have been into watches for a while, and have educated yourself. kind of like the people who say that "dynamic water pressure" from swimming will flood your 200m dive watch.
> as with anything and everything in life, moderation is key. I have exclusively Seiko Automatics (well 90% at least) and I have had TONS of 4r36/nh36/35 movements in the past. Never had a single problem. If it hasnt been worn in a while and has stopped, i give about 25-30 winds, and then let the rotor take over from there.Im not winding it for an hour, just the recommended amount from the manual. Im not going to live in a world of paranoid delusions that make me afraid to hand wind my watch (which is made to be hand wound!) this is too much.


Thanks for your sensible answer. I have been very confused about all this fear-mongering about hand-winding automatics.I have a couple of automatics with manual wind and one of them, a cheap Guanqin, has a 4s36 (NH36) movement - the movement must be the main expense as the entire watch only cost £53 inc postage or $70! As I don't wear the watch so often I have decided to manually wind 10 to 15 times everytime I first put it on after a break rather than buying a watch winder. My thinking like another member who answered this thread is it's not the end of the world if the gears wear out more quickly as I can just replace the whole watch. Your thread made me question this manual wind paranoia. Would Seiko, who are renowned for robust movements seriously produce a movement that has crap gears in it's manual winding mechanism just to save a few bucks? Highly unlikely. I'm not a watchmaker but I am willing to take a risk on this one. Time will tell I guess and we both may be proved wrong but like you I want to enjoy my watches and utilise them to the full rather than live in fear.


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## Amplituder (Oct 29, 2016)

This is a fairly long thread already, so I might've missed if someone said it already.
So yes, the auto mechanism has the risk of wearing out quicker if you manual wind it, but it really depends on the lubrication used.

From a watchmakers point of view, the Seiko Magic Lever is designed to not have manual winding, due to rather high friction between the magic lever pawls and the ratchet wheel, compared to Swiss and Citizen/Miyota auto systems that use reverser wheels, as these ratcheting system functions on nearly zero friction. Reverser wheels still suffer from pivot wear, modern ones showing excessive wear due to poor materials, oils and maybe end-user "over winding" habits.
Which brings to the interesting point of there are the rare cases of any type of auto system wearing out prematurely, due to some people having the habit of "topping up" their power reserve whenever they pick up their watch in the morning, or even just wind the watch a little bit during the day, every now and then, and not really letting the auto system do its job.
Not only does "over-winding" wear out the auto system, but it also wears out the mainspring, as automatic mainsprings aren't attached to the spring barrels outer wall, instead they glide and slide when the spring is at "full tension" ensuring that the spring tension never gets too high, but also to make sure the automatic oscillating weight doesn't break the auto system if it were to swing on a full spring.

As brilliant as the Magic Lever is, it's pretty much the reason why Seiko never bothered to add manual winding to their movements (the standard line movements that is. Grand/King Seikos and some other high end movements had Swiss style reversers), until recently. Like, sure, it's cheaper to make a movement without this extra feature, but they knew that it would also increase the movement longevity. I've serviced a bunch of early 70s Seikos and they all have had nearly mint condition Magic Lever ratchets, possibly due to there being no manual wind.
Of course, manual wind has been in Seiko movements now for maybe 15-20 years, which is a rather short time to see how dramatic it's effect could be on the auto system, like, who knows, manual winding might have no effect on the longevity.

After all, I'm rather familiar with TAG's 1887 calibre, which is essentially a Seiko 6S37, Magic Lever with manual wind. TAG has been using these now for some 5-6 years, and so far the auto system is the least of its problems.

So, Tl:dr: Manual wind Seiko movements are all-OK, as long you're being sensible and don't make fiddling that knob your all day hobby.


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## Hege (Dec 19, 2020)

I have noticed that when I wound my 4r36 manually over 20 turns (some manuals advice to wound manually, but how many turns? and some just swing from side to side at start.) It goes harder to turn and of course it could then damage parts inside the watch. Well there is some number for this good accuracy and 50% sounds good of watches capability to be wounded.


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## james.mae (Mar 8, 2021)

Whoa easy with the caps there OP.


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## bigclive2011 (Mar 17, 2013)

james.mae said:


> Whoa easy with the caps there OP.


As he hasn't been here for four years I doubt he will be listening.


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## RJMonterey (Mar 11, 2020)

I wind my 4R36's every morning, ~10 turns per each watch just to keep them going between wearings. Have not had any issues thus far.


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## dsoundmann (9 mo ago)

My head hurts after reading this, geeze.


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## dsoundmann (9 mo ago)

RJMonterey said:


> I wind my 4R36's every morning, ~10 turns per each watch just to keep them going between wearings. Have not had any issues thus far.


I wind mine 30x's in morning and 30x's at nite. No issues for me


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## PowerChucker (Jun 16, 2010)

after 5 years this thread is the gift that keeps on giving, lol, good lord.


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## Toddstang (Mar 8, 2020)

Well, I have Tissots, Seikos and lots of other brands of Automatics, that have been wound for years, decades for that matter and they all still work. 
Kind of reminds me of keeping the magazine loaded in your semi-auto wears out your spring argument.


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## One-Seventy (Mar 25, 2019)

I guess everyone has a semi-automatic gun these days, it seems from the news, so yes, that's an appropriate analogy.


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## armabill (8 mo ago)

I wind mine every night before bed time. I also wind it up some when I wake to start the day. If the winding would be bad for the watch, it wouldn't have that feature.


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## SigDigit (Sep 8, 2020)

> "Relatively steady accuracy can be obtained by wearing the watch on the wrist frequently for the self-winding type and winding up the mainspring fully everyday at a fixed time to move it regularly for the wind-up mechanical type."


To me, it's perfectly clear that the winding up everyday at the same time applies to the wind-up mechanical type, not automatics. Either way, I only hand wind automatics that are dead-stopped until they come to life then let my body do the winding. On automatics I have that have a power reserve indicator (Seiko Presage Cocktail time, ex), I believe a 4R37 movement, probably same as 4r35 with power reserve and date dial complication, I will hand wind till at least 50% power reserve, then finish winding on wrist.


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