# Watch winder affecting the accuracy of watches?



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Has anyone experienced watches gaining/losing more time when they are on the winder? My EMII classic was gaining a consistent 5 secs/day when its on the winder. I've left it on the winder for 4 days and have been wearing my EMII Chronometer LE during this period. My EMII C. LE has been pretty much in sync w/ atomic clock all this while. Yesterday, i swapped the 2 watches and just 3 hours on the winder, my EMII C. LE started lagging by 1 second. By the 12th hour, its already lagging by 5 seconds! On the other hand, my EMII Classic has lost some of the additional time it has gained while on the winder and its pretty much keeping a consistent difference with the atomic clock. Even my Rolex on the winder experienced the same thing, losing more time than when its worn on the wrist. Qs: Is this happening to only specific makes/models of watch winders?


----------



## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

Watches lose and gain time depending on how they are rested, i.e. crown up, face up, etc, so I don't see why this wouldn't be the same for on the wrist or on a winder.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Its not so much of an obsession to get perfect accuracy out of my automatics, rather more so the purpose of a watch winder. The main objective in getting a watch winder is to spare yourself the task of winding your watches and setting the time. As mentioned, depending on the position of the watch, its capable of gaining/losing seconds. I noticed that the combination of wearing the watch on the wrist and letting it rest (in certain positions) when not worn will result in a pretty accurate watch (say 1 or 2 secs off a day). On my watch winder however, its causing the watch to lose / gain significantly more time, which by the end of the week will have noticeable impact on time keeping (at this rate with watches on the winder for a longer period). This sort of defeats the purpose of getting a watch winder in the first place. I dont know whats causing this, could be the way the winder is turning and the positions stopped at? Anyhow, i'll continue to monitor the watches on the winder for a longer period to see the actual effects.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Does your winder have a rest period? Do you know how many turns a day the winder achieves?

Some can be set...some less expensive ones spin all day long.

another thought is that when the winder is at rest...most of mine run on and off for 6-7 hours and then rest till the next day, and then start again...take the watch off the winder and lay it in an opposite position.

I know you can't overrind an auto but there is a stress factor inherent in a movement always at full reserve...it has to wind down at some point.

just a few things to ponder...let us know.


----------



## roberev (Mar 15, 2006)

If winders do affect accuracy, my limited experience indicates that it's for the better. My EMII Classic is not COSC-certified and spends most of its time on a Sharper Image winder. I gain one second a day on it. Even my COSC watches aren't than good (but my Grand Seiko is close at +2/day . . . and it sits on an Orbita Sparta 3-watch winder).

I know, anecdotal evidence is poor evidence, but I figured I'd share anyway.

Rob


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Hi Scott,

I'm using an ERS double watch winder. It does not run all day and it is equipped with rest period and automatic daily repeat. Details:

-Runs on 3V DC Battery or 3-volt AC Adaptor
-User selectable programs - clockwise, counter-clockwise or alternating directions, at approx. 7.5 turns per minute.
-turns nominal 1,800 - 2,1-- turns per day (effective 650 - 800 turns per day).
-Each program will repeat automatically daily (if switch is always on)
-LED light indicator showing operation status
-AC Adaptor and nice gift box included. 

I took the watches off and wore them on my wrist. As before, they are all more accurate on my wrist than on the winder. My EMII Classic (as noted b4) does +5 secs/day on the winder, compared to +2 secs/day on my wrist. My EMII Chronometer LE does -2 secs/day on the winder and +1 sec/day (worse case, sometimes spot on) on my wrist. All these timings are repeatable, not some one-off readings.

I guess this must be due to the position where the winder stops. I do notice that winder may stop the watch at different positions. Perhaps certain positions having higher counts will result in the accuracy biasing towards them?



scottw44 said:


> Does your winder have a rest period? Do you know how many turns a day the winder achieves?
> 
> Some can be set...some less expensive ones spin all day long.
> 
> ...


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

I am not familiar with the ERS winders but will see what I can find out and try to post something tonite or tomorrow.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Took a quick look. Sounds like an awful lot of turns to me. Perhaps the movement is always at full charge and gets only to run off a little bit of it's power at the end. Sounds like the rest periods are a lot shorter than the winding periods.

Do you have a watch with a power reserve gauge? Might be a fun test.

After going crazy with winders myself, I now am using the wOlf Brand and have had nice success. There are some great deals on both Amazon and the bay and I might have to pick up another one myself.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

I dont know how the no. of turns can actually affect the accuracy of a watch, unless it makes a difference between a fully wound watch and a partially wound one (which i believe it should not be the case). I dont have a watch w/ a power reserve indicator. One interesting thing about this ERS winder is the advice to make sure the watch has min. power reserve left before placing it on the winder. Perhaps its erring slightly on making sure the watch is fully wound rather than under? Apart from the accuracy of watches on the winder, this ERS winder is pretty decent actually. Very very quiet and very nice finishing. It also comes with a universal 110-240V AC adapter which can be handy.



scottw44 said:


> Took a quick look. Sounds like an awful lot of turns to me. Perhaps the movement is always at full charge and gets only to run off a little bit of it's power at the end. Sounds like the rest periods are a lot shorter than the winding periods.
> 
> Do you have a watch with a power reserve gauge? Might be a fun test.
> 
> After going crazy with winders myself, I now am using the wOlf Brand and have had nice success. There are some great deals on both Amazon and the bay and I might have to pick up another one myself.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

It's all a crap shoot with winders. It's just that I saw the # of tpd on the and the timing of the cycles and I prefer much less tpd...actually I prefer the least amount necessary to keep the watch wound. I also prefer long rest periods between cycles and on this unit the cycle is longer than the rest.

Hey, I dunno. I'm just some nut on the internet that likes watches.

Here is what I found on the site...

3 User select programs to fit all watches design specifications: Program (A) - Turn clockwise only for 33 minutes and then rest for 15 minutes. This cycle is repeated 12 times per day achieving 1,860 turns within 9.6 hours providing 90% - 100% power reserve.
Program (B) - Turn clockwise and counterclockwise alternatively for 33 minutes and then rest for 15 minutes. This cycle is repeated 14 times per day achieving 2,170 turns per day within 11.2 hours providing 90% - 100% power reserve.
Program (C) - Turn counterclockwise only for 33 minutes and then rest for 15 minutes. This cycle is repeated 12 times per day achieving 1,860 turns within 9.6 hours providing 90% - 100% power reserve.
Each program will repeat itself automatically daily when the switch stays on; thus allowing your watches to be always wound up and ready to wear all the times! You can turn it off anytime if you choose to. You have complete control.


----------



## GhoulOfTheEast (Sep 23, 2007)

sys12345 said:


> I dont know how the no. of turns can actually affect the accuracy of a watch, unless it makes a difference between a fully wound watch and a partially wound one (which i believe it should not be the case). I dont have a watch w/ a power reserve indicator. One interesting thing about this ERS winder is the advice to make sure the watch has min. power reserve left before placing it on the winder. Perhaps its erring slightly on making sure the watch is fully wound rather than under? Apart from the accuracy of watches on the winder, this ERS winder is pretty decent actually. Very very quiet and very nice finishing. It also comes with a universal 110-240V AC adapter which can be handy.


Ahh, so you did pick up a winder. Pics? Details?


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Yeah, all thanks to Chuen, saved me lots of leg work... got my EM2 LE the day i landed HK and the watch winder the next day  Darn thing is big (somewhat weighty as well), had to buy an additional luggage bag to bring them back home :roll:

The model i got is WA043-C, the pics are available on ERS website. Dont think i'm allowed to post the link here, will PM u the link to the site instead.



GhoulOfTheEast said:


> Ahh, so you did pick up a winder. Pics? Details?


----------



## GhoulOfTheEast (Sep 23, 2007)

sys12345 said:


> Yeah, all thanks to Chuen, saved me lots of leg work... got my EM2 LE the day i landed HK and the watch winder the next day  Darn thing is big (somewhat weighty as well), had to buy an additional luggage bag to bring them back home :roll:
> 
> The model i got is WA043-C, the pics are available on ERS website. Dont think i'm allowed to post the link here, will PM u the link to the site instead.


Got your PM! Thanks a bunch.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Scott, if u take a closer look @ the specs, these nos are nominal values. They supposedly equate to actual 650-800 tpd, although i dont know what exactly is the diff between nominal and actual nos..:-s



scottw44 said:


> It's all a crap shoot with winders. It's just that I saw the # of tpd on the and the timing of the cycles and I prefer much less tpd...actually I prefer the least amount necessary to keep the watch wound. I also prefer long rest periods between cycles and on this unit the cycle is longer than the rest.
> 
> Hey, I dunno. I'm just some nut on the internet that likes watches.
> 
> ...


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Ok, so I decided to do a 24 hour test on my Wolf winder. I selected that winder as my Anonimo timing is the same on that winder or the wrist to the penny, so I thought it was a good place to start.

My Ball which gains slightly more than 1 second a day on the wrist, gained over 6 seconds on a winder that I know:

a) worked perfectly on my Anonimo
b) is putting out 600 tpd
c) has a proven track record with many people I know

All I can conclude is that either:

a) certain winders might work with certain watches better
b) Ball Watches don't like winders...can any others lend us empirical data-which might lead to a conclusion that Ball Watches like to be worn;-)

I dunno...I'm just a nut with a keyboard that loves his Moonie and hated to see him sped up.

But I am a bit baffled:-s


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Scott, its great that u've done the test, now i know i'm not the only one having a watch accuracy issue with a winder. BTW, is yr winder set for directional or bidirectional winding? I'm wondering if it will make any difference? For watches that can be wound bidirectionally, is it better to wind it as such or select only a single direction?


----------



## sukispop (Nov 13, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> Scott, its great that u've done the test, now i know i'm not the only one having a watch accuracy issue with a winder. BTW, is yr winder set for directional or bidirectional winding? I'm wondering if it will make any difference? *For watches that can be wound bidirectionally, is it better to wind it as such or select only a single direction?*


From what I've heard, it's usually recommended to set your winder to spin bidirectionally for watches with rotors that spin that way. I have an ABest double winder which is set to spin clockwise for one rotation, rest for ~90 seconds, and then spin counter-clockwise for another rotation...rest for ~90, and then repeat its cycle. That seems to work well for all of my autos, which are all bidirectional. I also have an Orbita Sparta Deluxe, which runs on a completely different system. Instead of spinning the watch, the Sparta uses what's called the "Rotorwind" system. Every ten minutes, the drive motor makes a single turn, causing the watch to swing back and forth for several oscillations. This simulates the watch's motions if it were being worn on the wrist. I've found that this system works quite well for all of my autos as well.

;-)


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Geoff, any accuracy issue with your watches on the winder?



sukispop said:


> From what I've heard, it's usually recommended to set your winder to spin bidirectionally for watches with rotors that spin that way. I have an ABest double winder which is set to spin clockwise for one rotation, rest for ~90 seconds, and then spin counter-clockwise for another rotation...rest for ~90, and then repeat its cycle. That seems to work well for all of my autos, which are all bidirectional. I also have an Orbita Sparta Deluxe, which runs on a completely different system. Instead of spinning the watch, the Sparta uses what's called the "Rotorwind" system. Every ten minutes, the drive motor makes a single turn, causing the watch to swing back and forth for several oscillations. This simulates the watch's motions if it were being worn on the wrist. I've found that this system works quite well for all of my autos as well.
> 
> ;-)


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> Scott, its great that u've done the test, now i know i'm not the only one having a watch accuracy issue with a winder. BTW, is yr winder set for directional or bidirectional winding? I'm wondering if it will make any difference? For watches that can be wound bidirectionally, is it better to wind it as such or select only a single direction?


For the Ball I set it to the bi-directional as the 2836 in my watch winds in both directions. For my ANonimo, I used the clockwise setting, as the 7750 winds clockwise. It is best to match the settings to the way the watch winds. Glad my results where the same as yours...well not glad, but from a scientific perspective, intrigued.


----------



## groundhog (Aug 25, 2007)

I believe that as soon as we take our watch off, the accuracy changes. The winder is not heated to skin temp. and that changes everything. I have four winders and 8 mechanical watches and every time I put one on the winder, their accuracy changes from when they're being worn. I have no scientific proof of this other than my own experience but temp and position (I believe) have everything to do with a watches accuracy.


----------



## Pathfinder (Sep 18, 2007)

You guys need a girlfriend!


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Pathfinder said:


> You guys need a girlfriend!


got a wife with several winders and mechanicals. Nothing like snuggling under the lite of my Moonphase with a little side lite from her watch. Now if she'd only wear 32mm, we could have candlelight dinner every where with our two Ball Watches. If you can't avoid your obsession, get involved with a fellow w.i.s.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

IMO, its more likely due to the mounted position of the watch on the winder thats causing the loss of accuracy. I've placed my EMII C. LE on the table, dial up for 24hrs. Its still ticking in sync with the atomic clock. Does not appear to be affected in any significant way by temp difference.



groundhog said:


> I believe that as soon as we take our watch off, the accuracy changes. The winder is not heated to skin temp. and that changes everything. I have four winders and 8 mechanical watches and every time I put one on the winder, their accuracy changes from when they're being worn. I have no scientific proof of this other than my own experience but temp and position (I believe) have everything to do with a watches accuracy.


----------



## obie (Feb 9, 2006)

I use a winder made by rocket. Got from the omega ad. It winds for one hour at a slow rate, then off for three. It uses a spring loaded adjustable pillow which is pretty nice. I don't have a ball watch to test timing with, but most of my watches are only on the winder overnight. then worn the next day.


----------



## sukispop (Nov 13, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> Geoff, any accuracy issue with your watches on the winder?


No, actually the accuracy of my watches seem to remain fairly consistent, whether they spend time on the winder, my wrist, or take their turns sitting in my armoire. My Ball watches don't seem to be quite as dead-on accurate as some of yours are, but I'm pleased with their performance. My EMII Classic seems to lose an average of 3-4 seconds/day, while my EH Mad Cow seems to gain an average of about the same. I might get my EMII Classic regulated, though, since it's pattern is that of losing time, as opposed to gaining it...and I've read somewhere that the pattern should always be of gaining time(if it's not otherwise dead-on).

I remember reading someone's post here awhile back, where he has a routine of how he positions his watches when not on his wrist...on the winder on this night, then dial side up on another, then crown side up on another...some kind of order like this...and he said that this system enables his watch to stay dead-on accurate, continuously and consistently. Now, I'm a bit too lazy to follow this regimen...but it's cool how this member is able to keep his autos running as accurately as high end quartz pieces! :-!


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> IMO, its more likely due to the mounted position of the watch on the winder thats causing the loss of accuracy. I've placed my EMII C. LE on the table, dial up for 24hrs. Its still ticking in sync with the atomic clock. Does not appear to be affected in any significant way by temp difference.


I agree it might be more positional than winder. We have quite a few winders here and will experiment again when I am willing to part with my Ball for at least 24 hours. I am happy to report that a day off the winder has brought my rate results back to normal again.


----------



## scosgt (Jun 25, 2006)

I have three Sharper Image winders and a Chinese Ebay winder (red wood box, two winders with a drawer underneath).
Any watch put on the Sharper Image winders will eventually run down, sometimes this takes a couple of weeks. Turns are set to max, so I expect that accuracy is affected by the declining power.
The (Schifrausen?) winder keeps my two fortis pilots running forever. BUT, it will not wind a 7750, they just run right down. This one does have adjustable settings for time and also for direction. The two Fortis watches keep running, but not with great accuracy, as the winder stops in any old position and I think that does have an effect. OTOH a 7750 can run VERY accurately on the Sharper Image winder, and will keep running for a few weeks.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Today at 7am after a nice snooze, my Ball went to winder #2 for it's test there. Wind cycle is done and resting till am...watch gained 3 seconds now in less than 12 hours, we will see what the rest cycle brings in the am.


----------



## nimbushopper (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi all, newbie here to the forum. I find this discussion about winders interesting. My watches don't like either of my two(eilux, ABest) winders as much as my wrist. The strange thing I've found is that those watches that tend to run slow run even slower on the winder, and the ones that run fast likewise run faster on the winders. I have them both set for 950tpd, bi-directional.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Thanx for your feedback Nimbus and welcome.

Winder test # 2 completed. Different winder, same results.

Next day off for the Ball, I am going to turn my Wolf Winder so that the watch is dial up and see if that matters at all. 

Very interesting test.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

It appears that watch winders do indeed affect the accuracy of watches for a few of us. *Geoff*, the winder(s) which do not affect the accuracy of your watches, are u referring to both your Abest and/or Orbita? I wonder if there is any difference in terms of design/operation compared to the rest? :-s Whenever yr winder comes to a rest, is the position of your watch random or in a specific position?


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

Good Morning:

I hadn't worn the Ball for about a 1.3 days. I put it on this am and it was 
-1 and some change for the 32 hours or so in the dial up position.

Interesting. Very accurate at rest as well.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

So now the Qs remains, which winder will have the *least* effect on our watches (in terms of accuracy)?



scottw44 said:


> Good Morning:
> 
> I hadn't worn the Ball for about a 1.3 days. I put it on this am and it was
> -1 and some change for the 32 hours or so in the dial up position.
> ...


----------



## nimbushopper (Nov 3, 2007)

I think that the rotor in the auto movement works by the effects of gravity when the watch is placed in the winder. All winders keep the face somewhat perpendicular to the floor. If you alter this by putting the face of the watch upward then I believe the watch won't wind properly even though the winder is trying to do its job.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> So now the Qs remains, which winder will have the *least* effect on our watches (in terms of accuracy)?


Yes:

I can add that both my Wolf Winder and my Watchwinder.com Winder achieved +5 to +7 in 24 hours.

Perhaps we should have a new thread...with the Watch, the winder, and the results.

I would even be willing to complie everything ina spread sheet once we had all the data.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Scott, thats a good idea! Perhaps manufacturers for watch winders should look into this as well 

It seems that most watch winders mentioned above do affect our watches, except for the Orbita? Can any Orbita watch winder owner confirm this?



scottw44 said:


> Yes:
> 
> I can add that both my Wolf Winder and my Watchwinder.com Winder achieved +5 to +7 in 24 hours.
> 
> ...


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

Its not perfectly perpendicular, there's still a slight angle of elevation. I wonder if this angle of inclination is affecting the accuracy of watches? Perhaps its a tradeoff between winding efficiency and accuracy? o|



nimbushopper said:


> I think that the rotor in the auto movement works by the effects of gravity when the watch is placed in the winder. All winders keep the face somewhat perpendicular to the floor. If you alter this by putting the face of the watch upward then I believe the watch won't wind properly even though the winder is trying to do its job.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

I have now had 2 opportunites to use my Wolf winder in a virtually flat position. And yep, it is working (the test that is)

Day one I gained +2. Day 2, the gain was +1.


----------



## sys12345 (Aug 30, 2007)

The test is working meaning that the mounted position of the watch is the cause for the loss of accuracy?



scottw44 said:


> I have now had 2 opportunites to use my Wolf winder in a virtually flat position. And yep, it is working (the test that is)
> 
> Day one I gained +2. Day 2, the gain was +1.


----------



## scottw44 (Aug 16, 2006)

sys12345 said:


> The test is working meaning that the mounted position of the watch is the cause for the loss of accuracy?


Yes. Seems to be the case. Three days on the winder have yielded the same results so the error seems positional.

Next time I can manage to take the watch off for 24 hours, or better, 48, I will test the crown up and down positions off the winder to confirm for sure.


----------



## xInZax (Jun 14, 2014)

Sorry about reviving a dead thread. I just got a watch winder from my fiance for my birthday and noticed that it causes my watches to fluctuate heavily as well. My Orient Golden Eye usually goes to +30 seconds and then stays consistent throughout a week. I'm not sure if it just settles, but it's always stayed exactly 30 seconds ahead of my Citizen, which is always synced with the AT. 

Stuck the Golden Eye into the winder and it ended up going going back another 15 seconds within one night of use, resulting in -45 total. Not a big deal like I said, but just something odd. 

I have a Seiko Diver (Can't remember the model) that also fluctuated like crazy in the winder. Prior to winding, it was usually always 5 seconds ahead of the same citizen. Stuck it in the winder and it went -30 within a night. 

My Orient Star does the same thing, but I usually reset it since it does have a second hand hack. Is it simply because I have a much more affordable model? It's a double winder from Brookstone I believe.


----------



## samanator (Mar 8, 2008)

Probably set wrong for the movement if your winder is adjustable. Check the orbita data base for setting for you movement.

Orbita - Watch Database

Apparently Orient does not have data there so I would suggest using the Seiko setting for which it is based:

650-950 Both directions.

The other possibility is the axis which is fixed does not equal your daily average position. part of why COSC is in multiple axis.


----------



## xInZax (Jun 14, 2014)

samanator said:


> Probably set wrong for the movement if your winder is adjustable. Check the orbita data base for setting for you movement.
> 
> Orbita - Watch Database
> 
> ...


This is an awesome resource. Thanks! Much appreciated


----------

