# Help me identify a Zenith (vintage)



## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

Hello everyone,
I am new to this forum but already a watch addict !
I have found this nice looking Zenith (apparently from the 60's) new of stock.
But despite many searches on the web I could not find the exact model (some were really close but some writing were different).

Could you help me to identify this watch ?
Precision : on the back there is only thing :the number "1068110".

Cheers,
Pascal.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

The style is one of Zenith's more popular styles. Variations on theme perhaps. If you had the number for the movement, you could narrow it somehow.

Cheers!

Dan


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

Congratulations on your very nice looking Zenith watch.
Is it gold or goldfilled? And I can see some relief on crown so I guess crown has star and a letter Z inside. Easiest way to identify your watch or movement is to have it opened with right tool. When watch is opened you can see movement number near the balance wheel. My qualified guess is that you have 2542C,2552C or 2562C, maybe PC at the end if watch is automatic but it is not stated on dial.

Here is mine 2552Cb-)



















Should movement have serial number writen on it you can send it to Zenith and they would inform you with exact date of manufacture of your watch. Like you can see on the picture beneath number has been traced to production date of 6th July 1960. This is Zenith 2522C and it has date at 3 o'clock, not between 4 and 5 like yours watch and mine 2552C.


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## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

Thank for the answers.
Problem is I do not have tools to open this watch and I am very not qualified.
There is a Z inside the star on the crown.
The watch seems gold plated.
What does it means that there is a Z inside the star on the crown ?
Is this the standard Zenith symbol ?


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

> What does it means that there is a Z inside the star on the crown ?
> Is this the standard Zenith symbol ?


This used to be Zenith symbol. It has been changed, but personaly I like star as a Zenith symbol. Star was symbol in 50's and 60's I guess. Hartmut can give you more precise information. After star on crown came a combination of five pointed star on dial and four pointed star on crown. And after that came symbol that is used today. But this is judged by pictures of wathces I saw on internet. These crowns with star and Z inside are very hard to find nowdays, so you are very lucky that your watch has it, but it is NOS. Take some more pictures of watch from backside or crownside and some detailed pictures of dial if you can and post them here. You could go to watchmaker and ask him to open your watch. It should not cost much if anything. You could take your camera and take some pictures of movement there and even ask watchmaker to see under magnifying glass what movement type it is.


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## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

vultures78 said:


> This used to be Zenith symbol. It has been changed, but personaly I like star as a Zenith symbol. Star was symbol in 50's and 60's I guess. Hartmut can give you more precise information. After star on crown came a combination of five pointed star on dial and four pointed star on crown. And after that came symbol that is used today. But this is judged by pictures of wathces I saw on internet. These crowns with star and Z inside are very hard to find nowdays, so you are very lucky that your watch has it, but it is NOS. Take some more pictures of watch from backside or crownside and some detailed pictures of dial if you can and post them here. You could go to watchmaker and ask him to open your watch. It should not cost much if anything. You could take your camera and take some pictures of movement there and even ask watchmaker to see under magnifying glass what movement type it is.


Hello,
these are other pictures of my Zenith (sorry for the quality, I don't have a light box yet
you can see them here
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo233/papounet_image/p1010427.jpg
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo233/papounet_image/p1010432.jpg
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo233/papounet_image/p1010433.jpg
http://i379.photobucket.com/albums/oo233/papounet_image/p1010434.jpg

thank you for your help :


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

That is a nice looking watch. Not the most common orientation of the date numerals, which is interesting.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

A very nice watch - and a very unusual date display orientation ("outward" rather than at right angles to the edge). I can only add the following to what the others have said:

1. The crown with that logo is original and is supposed to have been used until ca. 1965, some examples up to 1970 are also known.

2. The serial number on the back is probably pre-1963 (after that, the seven-digit style was amended to something like 000x000 where 0 are numbers and x is a letter, either A or D or E)

3. The watch has a date feature. The only pre-1960 calibre by Zenith with this was the Cal. 71 (= Cal. 133/133.8 with date added) and those had the date usually at 3:00. The Cal. 71 was also automatic and bumper wind. I presume that yours doesn't fit the bill so it will be of the Cal. 25xx C or 25xx PC series (xx stand for numbers). Again, these were from the sixties, confirming what you know already.

4. Not by any means all Zenith watches belonged to a range with name (such as "Sporto", "Captain" or "Pilot"). You may well just have a simple, unnamed model Zenith from the early sixties.

Hartmut Richter


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## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

Hartmut,
thank you for your answer ;
I have posted on many forum and only watchUseek gave me accurate answers !
Thank you all, guys !
I will let you know what is the caliber inside when I will find time 
to go to the watchmaker. 
Best regards,
Pascal.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

actarus said:


> I have posted on many forum and only watchUseek gave me accurate answers !


Many thanks - it just goes to show that we're the best!

Hope to see you again here soon.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

vultures78 said:


> Congratulations on your very nice looking Zenith watch.
> Is it gold or goldfilled? And I can see some relief on crown so I guess crown has star and a letter Z inside. Easiest way to identify your watch or movement is to have it opened with right tool. When watch is opened you can see movement number near the balance wheel. My qualified guess is that you have 2542C,2552C or 2562C, maybe PC at the end if watch is automatic but it is not stated on dial.
> 
> Here is mine 2552Cb-)
> ...


vultures78,

Thanks much for posting! You did a great job and made it easy for anyone to understand.

Thanks for coming through and showing others who to do it!

:-!

Dan


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

Hi Dan,

:thanks
It's good to know that your effort is appreciated. I was and still am in his shoes kind of, but I learned a lot on this forum, so why not share my knowledge. I like taking pictures and sharing them with other people with similar interestb-) Right now I am proud owner of 6 Zenith vintage watches and I am hunting for more. One is a lady's Zenith I bought for 7 euro, but I can not open it, so as soon as I open it I will post pictures and questions as well probably:-d
I have put leather strap on my 8 3/4F and new glass and I hope to take some pictures of it and post them as well
Anybody having Zenith 14 mm buckle in stainless steel??? Or any neutral 14 mm buckle in steel?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

6 vintage Zeniths?! That's more than I got!!

Hartmut Richter


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## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

Vultures78

I forgot to tell you I was very impressed by your "eagle eye".
I do not know how you manage to see such a detail on the crown from the first picture I have posted !

Thanks again.
Pascal


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Twice as many as I have if you count the pocket watch! I kind of wish I had spent more time on them in the past. Oh well, the world is full of wish I did this or that!

Looking forward to the pictures vultures78!

Dan


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## actarus (Nov 12, 2008)

Hello Hartmut,
here is a picture of the movement:








2532 C it seems... thanks for your help,
Pascal


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

I think you got its number! Nice clean movement. That is a good find.

Best of luck with it!

Dan


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

actarus said:


> Hello Hartmut,
> 2532 C it seems... thanks for your help,
> Pascal


Cal 2532C? That means it must run at 21600 A/h. Here are some more details, plus a look under the dial:

http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?00&ranfft&0&2uswk&Zenith_2532C

Hartmut Richter


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

Sorry to barge in *actarus* thread but i was wondering if you can tell me something about this Zenith. I searched the net but i couldn't find anything about a vintage Zenith with roman numerals. Is it legit ?


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

bograd said:


> Is it legit ?


Ah, I was watching this one myself on a certain well known auction site and wondered the same. The dial with the name only and no star probably makes it late 1940s to mid 1950s, if original. Do you know which movement it has?

Dave


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

'Legit' or not, the dial is simply stunning! It might be a repainted dial but nonetheless very beautiful IMO. I think it is a derivate of cal 106, please have a closer look under the balance wheel (if it is your watch). An early central second model i believe.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Most interesting indeed. A central seconds model, yet I have not found a central second model under Ranftt. Certainly, it does appear that the 106 and its variants do not apply. Is there more of a dead on shot of the movement?

As for the dial, that is equally tough. One can barely make out the Swiss Made at the 6 o'clock position, which tends to say it is original.

It is a nice looking watch, but certainly bears plenty of scrutiny!

Cheers and thanks for sharing,
Dan


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

The watch is incoming from the bay. I'll post some pics when arrives.
Thank for your input.


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Yes, I have to admit that Zenith wrist watches with roman numerals are rather scarce. Even among the pocket watches, you don't see that many after WWI! However, there are some examples. The only one I can find in the new Zenith book is a watch with full calender display and moonphase - a construction based on the Felsa Bidynator Cal. 693 and developed by Felsa, Zenith and Favre Leuba. But then, that's another story.....

As for the movement in your watch, the Cal. 120 has a direct central second and there are always the Cal. 106 or 126 derivatives with indirect central second. The Cal. 120 came out in 1953 so if your watch is older, it should have an indirect central second.

Hartmut Richter


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

As far as i can see, there is no Incabloc. Does this mean that is caliber 106 ?
Do you know what is that metal band over the ratchet wheel ?


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

The cal. number (in the red circle) is visible on your pic. The cal 106 chart shows which variations there might be but it is a bit puzzling. 

The metal band is holding something for the central second hand i guess. Third pic is a sub second 106 for reference.


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Still having a hard time believing it is a 106 variant.

At any rate, "metal band" is there to hold the central seconds pinion in place. It is a time honored process that does have some draw backs. If the watch is "smacked" hard enough, the second hand will stutter. This what I call the infamous stutter on a certain Japanese brand that emulates Rolex. A serious enough strike will cause the pinion to move out of contact with the gear and cause the seconds hand to miss a second or two.

Just some info!

Cheers,

Dan


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

Indeed, near the balance is marked "106". Another marking under the balance wheel is "P-5".



D N Ravenna said:


> Still having a hard time believing it is a 106 variant.


Why do you say that ?


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

> Indeed, near the balance is marked "106". Another marking under the balance wheel is "P-5".


Hmmm, there should be a 106-P-50 and not 5, but I am not an cal. 106 expert. I own none yet:roll:
Funny enough this perticular model is not mentioned by Ranfft and I have seen it on Ebay couple of times I think:roll:

Anyway judging by the porduction list it was made only in 3800 pieces in 1945.










I am guessing that second hand is not original to the watch and maybe is kind of missmatch to other two (blue I guess or black) but dial is very clean and nice. I am not sure that "swiss made" was used in 1945 so it could be refinished, but hartmut might say more about that. Coat of arms on inner side of the back case is Zeniths old and I have seen it mostly on pocket watches but if watch is from 1945 it is logical that this one is used. I have never seen it on inner side of back case on wrist watch yet.

Thank you for posting your pictures and sharing them with us, we appreciate it very much. If you take some more pics please share them with us:-!


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

Here is the inside oh the caseback


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

That is the one I thought it would be. Like I said before, I have seen it only on older (pre second world war) pocket watches. Btw. your watch might be sold on 9th of March 1947, but I am not sure, maybe someone with more insider knowledge can say what does those dates inside a case mean.










This one is too close to say it is a service date or maybe not. What was normal service interval back in the 1940's??
Here is picture of inner side of case of my Tissot with date from 1956 and by serial number watch was made in 1956 so maybe some watchmakers wrote inside a purchase date, but I am far from sure.


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

P - pincé is denoting the bevelled edges. Wonder why the balance bridge doesn't have it.

I have some notches on the edge inside the case back of my 106 (from 1938) as well, wonder what they mean? Can't imagine it's from service or sale, rather some production code. Hope this is in "the book"!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

I can't really add much to what's been said already. The watch has a Cal. 106-50-P (the 106-50-6 would have shock proofing on the balance). I don't know what the markings on the edge of the case back are for but I very much doubt that they were put there by Zenith themselves. The book also doesn't state anything about such marks. I presume they have something to do with servicing, if they weren't put there by the owner to denote date of purchase or something like that.

Hartmut Richter


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

bograd said:


> Indeed, near the balance is marked "106". Another marking under the balance wheel is "P-5".
> 
> Why do you say that ?


Simply because I have not seen a 106 with indirect seconds. Not to say they don't exist, I have just not seen one.

Aside from that, I have no other reason to say that!

:-d

dan


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

So, Dan, does this mean you have seen a cal 106 with direct seconds? I'v only come across sub second versions, and there's lots of them!


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Direct seconds in vintages are referred to the ones that have the sub-dial at the 6 o'clock position. In that configuration, the second hand is actually driven off of one of the gears.

By indirect seconds, I mean that power is routed off of the gear normally powering the sub-dial to power a center pinion, such as the watch in the pictures.

Much like yourself, the only ones I have seen are the ones with the sub-dial, which makes this conversation all the more interesting and confusing!

Dan


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

Thanks Dan, now I get it. I was thinking direct driven central seconds like cal 133 has, and many other calibers after that.

It is an odd 106 Bograd has. The listings claim that there are central second versions of cal 106 so i guess this is what they look like!


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## vultures78 (Aug 25, 2008)

Is it just me or "SWISS MADE" in the bottom of the dial and 1945 do not fit together???
I mean that they were writting "SWISS" as you can see on my 12-4-P-6 from that period and first some time later they started writting "SWISS MADE" on the bottom of the dial. I remember that I came across this issue in some OMEGA related thread from other forum. Can Hartmut or someone else explain this to us in more detailed way, please:thanks


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## bograd (Apr 22, 2008)

The dial is in excelent condition. I think it was reconditioned, and maybe they put "swiss made" instead of swiss ?


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## D N Ravenna (Apr 30, 2005)

Well, one of the reasons a dial with Swiss Made on it is considered original is that no one typically wants to spend their time duplicating it. The dial is hard enough, but the Swiss Made?

I guess it is possible that the dial is orginal, but not to the watch. AAR, I've always been told that a dial with Swiss Made is more likely than not going to be the real thing.

Just my experience,

Dan


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

For reference, here is another example of the same concept. Mind your eyes though, I've stolen the pic on the net. b-)


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## UrbanRave (Jan 4, 2012)

use scissors to open it.... i always do that..


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