# Torn between Fortis & Sinn - Need advice



## Matt_UKTX

Hi Everyone,

I'm relatively new to posting in this forum, although I've been a longtime reader... I've recently become a collector of watches, and am trying to decide on my next timepiece. The more I look and read, the more confused I get. I was hoping I could post here to get some good advice and different perspectives. If nothing else, it will be nice to see the debate that follows 

First, let me me tell you about the watches currently in my collection:

- Omega Seamaster 300M (Black Face)
https://www.omegawatches.com/watches...1230412001003/
This was a wedding gift from my wife, and therefore will never be sold. I have both the metal bracelet and the "snoopy" cordura strap with deployment buckle. Right now, I am wearing it on the latter.

- Seiko Turtle SRP773
Seiko USA / Collections / Prospex / Men / Watch Model / SRP773
This is my "beater" watch, although I take very good care of it. I wear it on a thick brown non-tapered leather strap with PAM style buckle.

- Halios Delfin (Stainless Steel)
First Impression: Halios Delfin - Wound For LifeWound For Life
This was a "grail" watch for me. Hunted for it for weeks, and finally found one in new condition from someone on this forum. I wear it on the supplied brown leather strap and PAM style buckle.

- Carpenter M7 Field
https://carpenterwatches.com/collect...brooklyn-field
This was a recent purchase as my collection lacked a good field watch and a watch with a light (cream/white) face. I love this watch as it has elements of bauhaus influence to it.

Here's what I am considering:

Sinn 103:
Sinn 103 St Sa E Limited Edition on Strap
Sinn 103 St Acrylic on Strap (I would get the brown strap version)

Sinn 104:
Sinn 104 A St Sa on Strap
Sinn 104 I St Sa White on Strap

Fortis Aviatis:
Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional Chronograph on Strap
Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional on Strap
Fortis Aviatis Cockpit Two on Strap

Fortis Cosmonautis:
Fortis Official Cosmonautis on Strap


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## impetusera

Sinn 103 is probably better than Fortis on a technical features level. I like the dial of the Aviatis pro chrono better than the Sinn though, it has more going on with it. Toss up between the Sinn 104 and Cosmonauts. Don't think there's any technical difference between them but the Fortis is the official cosmonauts automatic with the Roscosmos and Yuri Gagarin cosmonaut training center logos on the case back so there's something interesting about it. Between the two whichever looks better to you I guess. The Fortis is a little larger than the Sinn and the double anti-reflective coating on the sapphire is very nice. Between the cockpit two and Aviatis pro I'd go with the Aviatis because it has the better looking dial. Majority of your current watches have a rotating bezel. If you want something with that then rules out the Aviatis or if you want more watches without a rotating bezel than it limits you to Aviatis. Sinn and the Cosmonauts are 200M water resistant where Aviatis is 100M if that makes a difference.


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## Matt_UKTX

Good advice, I think I have narrowed it down to five...

Sinn 104 A St Sa on Strap
Sinn 103 St Sa E Limited Edition on Strap
Sinn 103 St Acrylic on Strap
Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional Chronograph on Strap
Fortis Official Cosmonautis on Strap


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## mpalmer

What about the the Sinn 103 st Diapal?


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## impetusera

Matt_UKTX said:


> Good advice, I think I have narrowed it down to five...
> 
> Sinn 104 A St Sa on Strap
> Sinn 103 St Sa E Limited Edition on Strap
> Sinn 103 St Acrylic on Strap
> Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional Chronograph on Strap
> Fortis Official Cosmonautis on Strap


I'd think you should be able to narrow things to between a 3-hander or a chrono? That said for the 3-handers I'd go with the Fortis. Seconds hand adds a little color, has the cool space use certification, excellent anti-reflective sapphire and it's an ETA movement instead of Sellita in the Sinn 104. Of the two Fortis I own one is +2 and the other +3 seconds per day out of the box. Fortis uses top grade ETA movements. For the chronos I'd go between the Fortis and the Sinn 103 St Sa E, both use ETA 7750. The Sinn has better specs and will probably hold value better than the Fortis. The other aspect to consider is the size, the Fortis chrono is 43mm compared to 41mm of the Sinn. For me I try to be around at least a 42mm case.


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## impetusera

mpalmer said:


> What about the the Sinn 103 st Diapal?


I'd assume there's a price range and the $3500 DIPAL might be above it? Also with the DIPAL escapement and gas filled case any service will likely limit you to Sinn. As far as I know the other models in question have nothing special about them that would prevent an independent from working on them. All other watches in question are day/date where DIPAL is date only which can be a bother for some people.


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## watchmego3000

Both Fortis and Sinn make excellent watches for the money. Can't go wrong IMO. 

One factor you may not have considered (and also may not care about) is that Sinn is an independent brand, while Fortis is now owned by Gevril Group.


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## impetusera

daschlag said:


> Both Fortis and Sinn make excellent watches for the money. Can't go wrong IMO.
> 
> One factor you may not have considered (and also may not care about) is that Sinn is an independent brand, while Fortis is now owned by Gevril Group.


That is incorrect. Fortis is still independent. Gevril Group was at one time the sole distributor and service center in the USA for Fortis. Now Watchbuys is the distributor and RGM Watch Repair is the service center.


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## Matt_UKTX

mpalmer said:


> What about the the Sinn 103 st Diapal?


Unfortunately, although it's a beautiful timepiece, it's outside my budget...


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## netwatch

Sin104 is the best choice in my opinion as if you're looking for everyday tool/nice casual watch! Some may disagree but i'm also big fan of Omega but not 300m model.


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## Matt_UKTX

netwatch said:


> Sin104 is the best choice in my opinion as if you're looking for everyday tool/nice casual watch! Some may disagree but i'm also big fan of Omega but not 300m model.


Sorry you don't like my Omega 300M  It was a wedding gift from my wife and I think it has been a great watch. Just curious, why don't you like it?


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## watchmego3000

impetusera said:


> That is incorrect. Fortis is still independent. Gevril Group was at one time the sole distributor and service center in the USA for Fortis. Now Watchbuys is the distributor and RGM Watch Repair is the service center.


I would love to be proven wrong - got a reference for this info? Not doubting you, just would really like to get to the bottom of it. I passed on a great Fortis deal recently because I was unsure of the brand direction after finding it listed on the Gevril Group "our brands" page. Reading over it again, it does say "watchmaker and wholesale distributor". Looks promising!

Sorry if I am generating misinformation here.


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## impetusera

daschlag said:


> I would love to be proven wrong - got a reference for this info? Not doubting you, just would really like to get to the bottom of it. I passed on a great Fortis deal recently because I was unsure of the brand direction after finding it listed on the Gevril Group "our brands" page. Reading over it again, it does say "watchmaker and wholesale distributor". Looks promising!
> 
> Sorry if I am generating misinformation here.


Gevril has not changed their page since way back when they were named the sole USA distributor. You'll notice they don't have any of the current line listed on their site. In anycase here is the official announcement from Fortis and an article from wornandwound. I have purchased Fortis both through AD and gray market and no qualms with either.
https://www.fortis-swiss.com/en/new-distributor/
WatchBuys Named Fortis North American Distributor - worn&wound

Also, from the 2016/17 catalog:
Today, more than 100 years after the Grenchen based
headquarters released the first watches,
Walter Vogt's vision lives on in every FORTIS. To
this day, every FORTIS is still hand-finished. The
tests for accuracy and waterproof performance
are the only processes which are automated.
Because nothing can replace the skill of
the experienced hands of a watchmaker.

This way of thinking has become rare in this
day and age. But, as an independent family
company the best requirements were given
to play according to our own rules and to view
quality work as the greatest priority


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## WIS_Chronomaster

ID go for the Sinn.


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## Gopher

I would go with the Fortis. I have the older version of the Chrono you are considering (almost ten years now and it still looks new). I just took it in for its first service. The Fortis double-AR crystals are unreal. I get a lot of comments on mine. And fit and finish is top-notch.

That said, the only way to know is to handle them, so you may want to get both and return one (assuming the return policy is liberal enough). The downside (or upside, depending on perspective) is that you may want to keep both!

Finally, we cannot tell you which one to get. My experience from being on watch forums for a decade is that people generally know what they want and are merely looking for justification for their decision.


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## watchmego3000

I'll just leave this here.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/292088025041?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&_mwBanner=1


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## impetusera

daschlag said:


> I'll just leave this here.
> 
> Fortis B-42 Chronograph Official Cosmonaut Swiss Watch 638.10.11.M | eBay


Got one from that seller last week. Everything perfect with it and keeping +2 s/d just like my other Fortis from an AD. Cosmonauts chrono is an impressive piece.  Not very often you see them priced like that new in box.


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## Matt_UKTX

Very true... I am being honest with myself, I think I really want the Sinn and am just trying to justify the extra cost (which is significant), since I can get the Fortis from Jomashop for 50% off.



Gopher said:


> I would go with the Fortis. I have the older version of the Chrono you are considering (almost ten years now and it still looks new). I just took it in for its first service. The Fortis double-AR crystals are unreal. I get a lot of comments on mine. And fit and finish is top-notch.
> 
> That said, the only way to know is to handle them, so you may want to get both and return one (assuming the return policy is liberal enough). The downside (or upside, depending on perspective) is that you may want to keep both!
> 
> Finally, we cannot tell you which one to get. My experience from being on watch forums for a decade is that people generally know what they want and are merely looking for justification for their decision.


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## impetusera

Matt_UKTX said:


> Very true... I am being honest with myself, I think I really want the Sinn and am just trying to justify the extra cost (which is significant), since I can get the Fortis from Jomashop for 50% off.


Just buy the Sinn if it's the one you want. You'll be looking at it constantly and end up buying one down the road anyway. It has a rotating bezel, 200M WR, screw down crown/pushers. Otherwise there's not a lot of difference. The're both top grade ETA 7750 movements. I've bought plenty of cheaper watches to satiate my appetite for the more expensive one I really wanted. I end up eventually getting the one I wanted to begin with then have a bunch of other watches that combined cost more than if I had just bought the one to begin with. You won't be disappointed with the Fortis but if you want the Sinn you'll always question not purchasing it.


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## Matt_UKTX

So, here's an interesting thought. I just discovered Damasko... How does Damasko compare to Sinn. From what I have read, they are pretty even, more a question of aesthetic preference than quality difference.


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## impetusera

Matt_UKTX said:


> So, here's an interesting thought. I just discovered Damasko... How does Damasko compare to Sinn. From what I have read, they are pretty even, more a question of aesthetic preference than quality difference.


Ice-hardened steel of Damasko is probably more scratch resistant than Sinn. No real difference in movements. I hear the Damasko bracelet is very good but you don't seem to be going for bracelet options. Nothing too visually appealing in their dials to me though. I think for me I would go with the Fortis Aviatis chrono over the Sinn 103 because if the price difference is very large at the end of the day they have the exact same movement inside and the Fortis dial has a lot more detail to it which should be very striking visually with the double AR sapphire crystal.


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## WatchProblem

impetusera said:


> Just buy the Sinn if it's the one you want. You'll be looking at it constantly and end up buying one down the road anyway. It has a rotating bezel, 200M WR, screw down crown/pushers. Otherwise there's not a lot of difference. The're both top grade ETA 7750 movements. I've bought plenty of cheaper watches to satiate my appetite for the more expensive one I really wanted. I end up eventually getting the one I wanted to begin with then have a bunch of other watches that combined cost more than if I had just bought the one to begin with. You won't be disappointed with the Fortis but if you want the Sinn you'll always question not purchasing it.


This is good advice. Although I am a Fortis man (fifth model in my collect WILL be the new Diver Black when WatchBuys gets them in), and the price of that Cosmo Chrono is spectacular, you got to go with your gut. You'll end up chasing the Sinn around and after two or three other watches and literally some sleepless nights, the Sinn will be on your doorstep anyways.

With all that said, that eBay price on the Cosmo Chrono may leave you some room to get both! Just a bit of a larger capitol investment. But hey, two watches are better than one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WatchProblem

*Torn between Fortis & Sinn - Need advice*

My previous post stands, but like I said...I'm a Fortis guy. So let me make one selling point.

The Cosmo Chrono in the B-42 Cosmonaut line has a lug pattern and through pin set up that matches may other watches in the Fortis line up. This allows you to easily swap out bracelets and straps among many different watches. So, to that end, if you got the eBay Cosmo Chronograph on the steel bracelet you can swap it out for the rubber w/deployment when you get the Cosmo Chronometer, or the leather fitted strap from your Marinemaster. And so on.

Sorry to spend your money so freely and push Fortis after I said you should go with the Sinn. I just love Fortis.

...the watch struggle is real. Now if only my wife understood.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## impetusera

*Re: Torn between Fortis & Sinn - Need advice*



WatchProblem said:


> My previous post stands, but like I said...I'm a Fortis guy. So let me make one selling point.
> 
> The Cosmo Chrono in the B-42 Cosmonaut line has a lug pattern and through pin set up that matches may other watches in the Fortis line up. This allows you to easily swap out bracelets and straps among many different watches. So, to that end, if you got the eBay Cosmo Chronograph on the steel bracelet you can swap it out for the rubber w/deployment when you get the Cosmo Chronometer, or the leather fitted strap from your Marinemaster. And so on.
> 
> Sorry to spend your money so freely and push Fortis after I said you should go with the Sinn. I just love Fortis.
> 
> ...the watch struggle is real. Now if only my wife understood.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cosmo chrono sold out at that price so I was glad to have gotten one the week before at the same price as a best offer. Would be a good buy even for a non-bracelet person as you could turn around and sell the unused bracelet for $400.


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## Gerrard8

Regarding Damasko comparison, I have Damasko and Fortis, do not have Sinn.

I like my Fortis more. 
Damasko, yes, a lot of technologies put into it, but I if I sell my Damasko, I will only miss the hardened case a bit, maybe not that much.

In general, I found Fortis have paid more attention to details, just for one example: the day/date window, if you see the two watches in flesh, together or not, Fortis's refinements are spot on.

I would consider to buy a second Fortis. I would like to see a 3 handers Fortis with classic cosmonauts chronnograph's face (white dial version, with a bit twist). Even nicer if it has GMT function, then 4 handers. I will immediately send my money to Grenchen.

I mean something to combine the face of these two, and with ETA 2893 as heart.
Hopefully, one day.


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## impetusera

Gerrard8 said:


> Regarding Damasko comparison, I have Damasko and Fortis, do not have Sinn.
> 
> I like my Fortis more.
> Damasko, yes, a lot of technologies put into it, but I if I sell my Damasko, I will only miss the hardened case a bit, maybe not that much.
> 
> In general, I found Fortis have paid more attention to details, just for one example: the day/date window, if you see the two watches in flesh, together or not, Fortis's refinements are spot on.
> 
> I would consider to buy a second Fortis. I would like to see a 3 handers Fortis with classic cosmonauts chronnograph's face (white dial version, with a bit twist). Even nicer if it has GMT function, then 4 handers. I will immediately send my money to Grenchen.
> 
> I mean something to combine the face of these two, and with ETA 2893 as heart.
> Hopefully, one day.


Yes, the date window on Damasko is very unrefined like a Timex. The new Fortis lines have a lot going on with them design wise which is nice when you can see what you're paying for. I had and sold a Maurice Lacroix because it was just kind of boring to look at. Beautifully decorated movement but completely out of view while strapped to your wrist. With the double AR sapphire these orange chrono hands will jump off the dial like 3D.


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## Matt_UKTX

I actually quite like this option... The Cockpit Two Chrono. Does anyone know how the second hand works on this watch? Does it move constantly, or only when the chrono is active? I was confused by only two sub dials...


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## impetusera

Matt_UKTX said:


> I actually quite like this option... The Cockpit Two Chrono. Does anyone know how the second hand works on this watch? Does it move constantly, or only when the chrono is active? I was confused by only two sub dials...


I'd guess that much like the Doriner there's no running seconds. Top dial chrono mincutes, bottom dial chrono hours and seconds hand chrono seconds.


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## Matt_UKTX

Glad I asked.  That would be a deal breaker for me. Must have running seconds 



impetusera said:


> I'd guess that much like the Doriner there's no running seconds. Top dial chrono mincutes, bottom dial chrono hours and seconds hand chrono seconds.


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## BEEG

I commented this before...basically I feel that Fortis knows that they cannot compete with the cases of Sinn and Damasko, therefore they are putting more into the design and overall feel of the watches. I remember that in one Page and Cooper video they were telling that the person designing the Fortis dials now came from AP.


I was actually at the same cross road -should I take Sinn 104, Damasko DA3x or the Fortis Flieger Pro...ended up choosing the Fortis because the dial appealed more to me...and last but not least - the Fortis lume is better. 

If I were you - I'll take the Fortis Fl Pro Chrono...on a bracelet. Why the bracelet? Well, it's simple - there are plenty of great aftermarket Pilot style straps on affordable prices, while if you decide to get the bracelet after that - it will cost you a hefty price....same for the other watches TBH.


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## Matt_UKTX

All great feedback guys, and much appreciated. I am now leaning heavily towards this:
Fortis Flieger Professional Chronograph Automatic Men's Watch 705.21.11 L.01 - Aviatis - Fortis - Watches - Jomashop

Any feedback on the best place to buy? Jomashop seems to have best pricing right now, many of the other stores charge way more...

Is there much demand for the bracelet? I could take it off and sell it on eBay as brand new out of the box. Difference in price is only $100 and I have a brand new black pilot strap that will work perfectly on this watch. What would be a reasonable price to ask?

I agree with many of the comments, the case and bezel on the Sinn is very cool, but I like the dial, crown, heritage of the Fortis.


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## impetusera

Matt_UKTX said:


> All great feedback guys, and much appreciated. I am now leaning heavily towards this:
> Fortis Flieger Professional Chronograph Automatic Men's Watch 705.21.11 L.01 - Aviatis - Fortis - Watches - Jomashop
> 
> Any feedback on the best place to buy? Jomashop seems to have best pricing right now, many of the other stores charge way more...
> 
> Is there much demand for the bracelet? I could take it off and sell it on eBay as brand new out of the box. Difference in price is only $100 and I have a brand new black pilot strap that will work perfectly on this watch. What would be a reasonable price to ask?
> 
> I agree with many of the comments, the case and bezel on the Sinn is very cool, but I like the dial, crown, heritage of the Fortis.


I've had good transactions with Jomashop. As with any gray vendor wind the watch and set the time then let it run for 12 - 24 hours to be sure it's in good condition before removing all the protective bits and wearing it. I'm not sure what the demand is for bracelets on the new models, they cost $330 new from Fortis where a Fortis leather is $110. B-42 bracelets are $420 from Fortis and do sell in the $430 +/- range on ebay.


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## WatchProblem

It sounds as though you've made up your mind on this one. But I'd like to point out one more selling point for Fortis...all of the B-42 style cases and probably most, if not all other Fortis watches do NOT have a screw down crown (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this or clarify). 

This is really a great design feature from my perspective. None of my watches including my Rolex will never see 200m, let alone 10m. All of my Fortis' are rated for 200m and there's no screw down crown! Good enough for me.

Side benefit #1: The watch is easier to keep running...just wind'er up. Also easier to set or correct time and change day/date.

Side benefit #2: No concern of cross threading and striping the threaded crown and stem. I've had a couple watches where I carelessly cross threaded the stem and end up having to send in for repair (early on in my watch collecting journey). So after you've done this once, or in my case twice, you become gun shy and painfully fret every time you have to unscrew/screw down the crown. Some watches seem to be more susceptible to this than others...but not an issue with my Fortis'.

Can anyone name another brand where this feature exists across such a broad spectrum of models, or at all? There probably are some, but I can't think of any.

To me, this is a really useful feature in a world where the screw down crown is a little "over sold", especial on watches that will never see salt water, let alone 200 + meters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gopher

I agree re: screw-down crowns. I have one Fortis (Pilot Pro) and one Omega (Seamaster Pro 300m) with screw-down crowns and it's just one more thing to go wrong. I have done extensive swimming in my Fortis Marinemaster with push-pull crown and never had a problem.


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## Cubex

I came on Fortis forum for the first time looking for some advise on Fortis vs Sinn value proposition discussion and got exactly what I wanted to see.
That is a great price for Fortis Cosmonaut chrono. I'd definitely go with that.


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## watchmego3000

Watchbuys now selling Fortis at reduced "distributor direct" pricing.

http://www.watchbuys.com/store/pc/New-Fortis-Pricing-for-the-US-and-Canada-d171.htm


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## Matt_UKTX

Saw this... Great news. Still torn between this (Fortis Classic Cosmonautis Chronograph Steel AM on Strap) or that (Sinn 104 I St Sa White on Strap).


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## SunOfAtom

OP, did you make a decision? I am currently torn between the Sinn 104 A St Sa and the Fortis Cosmonautis. I am leaning towards the Sinn, but there is currently a significant price difference between these two very similar watches.


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## Matt_UKTX

SunOfAtom said:


> OP, did you make a decision? I am currently torn between the Sinn 104 A St Sa and the Fortis Cosmonautis. I am leaning towards the Sinn, but there is currently a significant price difference between these two very similar watches.


I actually did not in the end. I ended up buying a Hamilton Khaki Field Day Date and an Orient Bambino II V2. Still considering both brands, and while Sinn is probably the "better" of the two watches, I think the price/value of Fortis is tough to beat, especially if you are OK with buying grey market from Jomashop, etc.


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## Scribeliever

Great options. I'd go with the Sinn 104 white dial. Nice bang for buck, and perhaps less common than the others.


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## SunOfAtom

Matt_UKTX said:


> I actually did not in the end. I ended up buying a Hamilton Khaki Field Day Date and an Orient Bambino II V2. Still considering both brands, and while Sinn is probably the "better" of the two watches, I think the price/value of Fortis is tough to beat, especially if you are OK with buying grey market from Jomashop, etc.


Funny, I am currently wearing my Hamilton Field Khaki. If they made a version of the Field Khaki with a rotating bezel, it would be my perfect watch. Since they don't, the search for a field/tool/fleiger with a rotating bezel and full Arabic numerals has lead me to this point. The Cosmonautis seems like a great deal at $700, and even watchbuys has it for $840. I just hate to spend that much, only to wish I had bought a different watch.


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## Matt_UKTX

SunOfAtom said:


> Funny, I am currently wearing my Hamilton Field Khaki. If they made a version of the Field Khaki with a rotating bezel, it would be my perfect watch. Since they don't, the search for a field/tool/fleiger with a rotating bezel and full Arabic numerals has lead me to this point. The Cosmonautis seems like a great deal at $700, and even watchbuys has it for $840. I just hate to spend that much, only to wish I had bought a different watch.


Hamilton does make one, or at least something pretty close... Check this out:
H82305931 - Khaki Navy Scuba Auto | Hamilton Watch


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## Matt_UKTX

Here's another option... http://www.jomashop.com/hamilton-watch-h64515133.html


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## SunOfAtom

I had seen that one on the jomashop site, but not the one on the Hamilton website. Thanks for that! While I do not dislike the style of dive watches, my current obsession is with the aviation style. Something that looks natural on a worn leather strap. Of course once I find the perfect flight style watch, my obsession will turn to dive watches (or something else), but that is future me's problem.

Sorry for derailing your thread. To at least get Fortis back into the conversation, does anyone know if it is easy to replace the Cosmonautis leather strap for a more traditional (non-integraded?) leather strap? Something a little thinner and with movement at the pins.

Thanks!
Dave


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## eljay

SunOfAtom said:


> Sorry for derailing your thread. To at least get Fortis back into the conversation, does anyone know if it is easy to replace the Cosmonautis leather strap for a more traditional (non-integraded?) leather strap? Something a little thinner and with movement at the pins.
> 
> Thanks!
> Dave


If you mean the B-42 case with its screwed-in lug bars, yes it will take normal straps, NATOs etc. The bars themselves are 1.8mm in diameter so nothing out of the ordinary.


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## SunOfAtom

eljay said:


> If you mean the B-42 case with its screwed-in lug bars, yes it will take normal straps, NATOs etc. The bars themselves are 1.8mm in diameter so nothing out of the ordinary.


Yes, that is what I was referring to. Thanks!


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## Gopher

The new distributor-direct pricing from Watchbuys makes Fortis watches a steal. No longer a need to buy grey market, unless Watchbuys does not carry a model. And I have never seen another Fortis in the wild in over 10 years of owning them. I am guessing Sinn are more common, but both are unique.


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## impetusera

SunOfAtom said:


> I had seen that one on the jomashop site, but not the one on the Hamilton website. Thanks for that! While I do not dislike the style of dive watches, my current obsession is with the aviation style. Something that looks natural on a worn leather strap. Of course once I find the perfect flight style watch, my obsession will turn to dive watches (or something else), but that is future me's problem.
> 
> Sorry for derailing your thread. To at least get Fortis back into the conversation, does anyone know if it is easy to replace the Cosmonautis leather strap for a more traditional (non-integraded?) leather strap? Something a little thinner and with movement at the pins.
> 
> Thanks!
> Dave


B42 cases are large and heavy. The contoured straps help keep it positioned on the wrist. If you intend to use aftermarket straps consider purchasing one on bracelet. Price is probably within $150 of leather but a bracelet alone is $430 on ebay. So if you ever might want the bracelet the best time to get it is with the watch. If not then maybe you can turn a little profit from it. I have a Hamilton still but feel they are a little too mass produced these days and built to a cost point. They are nice but the Fortis is more unique and interesting. My experience with Fortis has been they are regulated to near balls on out of the box. I had a lot of dive watches at one point but sold most off. The only one left I don't see selling any time soon is the Certina DS Action.


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## SunOfAtom

Gopher said:


> The new distributor-direct pricing from Watchbuys makes Fortis watches a steal. No longer a need to buy grey market, unless Watchbuys does not carry a model. And I have never seen another Fortis in the wild in over 10 years of owning them. I am guessing Sinn are more common, but both are unique.


Yes, with such a small difference in price, I would definitely go with the AD. The two watches that I am debating are really similar, but I have found a few minor aesthetics that I prefer on the Sinn. I am not sure if the differences are worth that much of a price difference though.


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## SunOfAtom

impetusera said:


> B42 cases are large and heavy. The contoured straps help keep it positioned on the wrist. If you intend to use aftermarket straps consider purchasing one on bracelet. Price is probably within $150 of leather but a bracelet alone is $430 on ebay. So if you ever might want the bracelet the best time to get it is with the watch. If not then maybe you can turn a little profit from it. I have a Hamilton still but feel they are a little too mass produced these days and built to a cost point. They are nice but the Fortis is more unique and interesting. My experience with Fortis has been they are regulated to near balls on out of the box. I had a lot of dive watches at one point but sold most off. The only one left I don't see selling any time soon is the Certina DS Action.


The leather straps on the B42 case look nice and I am sure they are secure, I just like to have options. That is good to know about the bracelet costs, that may how I would order it if I end up going with this watch. I am sure that both the Fortis and Sinn are fantastic pieces, now I just need to make a decision between the two.


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## Shipmate

Anyone telling you a Sinn 103 or 104 is better than Fortis is telling you a flat lie. Sinn's more expensive models do have more technology, but not the 103 and 104 models.

That said, I am a big fan of Sinn 104 and Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional Chronograph on (brown) Strap. I'll probably end up buying one or both of these watches in the next year or two.

I would not recommend the Sinn 103, unless you are ok with having a watch that is 17mm tall. I owned one and couldn't enjoy it due to its size; looked like a brick strapped on my wrist.


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## Matt_UKTX

SunOfAtom said:


> Funny, I am currently wearing my Hamilton Field Khaki. If they made a version of the Field Khaki with a rotating bezel, it would be my perfect watch. Since they don't, the search for a field/tool/fleiger with a rotating bezel and full Arabic numerals has lead me to this point. The Cosmonautis seems like a great deal at $700, and even watchbuys has it for $840. I just hate to spend that much, only to wish I had bought a different watch.


SonofAtom, have you seen this? https://shop.hamiltonwatch.com/all-hamilton-watches/khaki-aviation-pilot-gmt-auto-h76755135-1.html

Looks EXACTLY like what you wanted...


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## BDIC

*Torn between Fortis & Sinn - Need advice*



SunOfAtom said:


> Yes, that is what I was referring to. Thanks!


The newer version of the bars are a PITA though. They have a little male tab that has to align with a female slot in the case. Great concept as it keeps the bar from spinning but always a touch tricky to align. Had a Cosmonaut and thought it was awesome but strap changes drove me bats...t crazy.

Tough choice between a Sinn, Fortis and a Damasko.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SunOfAtom

Matt_UKTX said:


> SonofAtom, have you seen this? https://shop.hamiltonwatch.com/all-hamilton-watches/khaki-aviation-pilot-gmt-auto-h76755135-1.html
> 
> Looks EXACTLY like what you wanted...


That's awesome, thanks for the heads-up! It is a little larger than I would have preferred, but I can probably make that work. The bi-directional countdown bezel is something I really liked about the Sinn, so I think my decision is now between this and the 104.


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## SunOfAtom

*Re: Torn between Fortis & Sinn - Need advice*



BDIC said:


> The newer version of the bars are a PITA though. They have a little male tab that has to align with a female slot in the case. Great concept as it keeps the bar from spinning but always a touch tricky to align. Had a Cosmonaut and thought it was awesome but strap changes drove me bats...t crazy.
> 
> Tough choice between a Sinn, Fortis and a Damasko.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Good to know, since I have a feeling that I will be switching between a leather strap and bracelet on whichever watch I get. I wonder when they made this change.

Thanks!
Dave


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## Matt_UKTX

SunOfAtom said:


> That's awesome, thanks for the heads-up! It is a little larger than I would have preferred, but I can probably make that work. The bi-directional countdown bezel is something I really liked about the Sinn, so I think my decision is now between this and the 104.


It's literally just over half the cost of the Sinn. If you like the Hamilton, I would go for it. Plus I have never seen this one out in the wild. Probably a more rare version...
https://www.amazon.com/Hamilton-H76755135-Aviation-Automatic-Stainless/dp/B00M7356YI

PS: Only one left in stock at that price. Better jump on it.


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## eljay

*Re: Torn between Fortis &amp; Sinn - Need advice*



BDIC said:


> The newer version of the bars are a PITA though. They have a little male tab that has to align with a female slot in the case. Great concept as it keeps the bar from spinning but always a touch tricky to align. Had a Cosmonaut and thought it was awesome but strap changes drove me bats...t crazy.


Not sure I'd call it a PITA. In my experience it takes only a moment to align it before you slide it home.

Also, there are those Casio bars that fit...


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## iffyjiffyskippy

I just want to mention I enjoyed reading the responses per OP request Sinn or Fortis. No doubt the reputation of Sinn is one of the top ten German watchmakers, yet with what Fortis offers - definitely bigger bang for the buck and reading was really interesting with people listing about the difference between the watch models of the two brands. I would not have read a blog entry for Fortis if not for the IQ watch which I much prefer over its 2Pi model.


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## Shipmate

If you want a chronograph, I would recommend the new Fortis Cosmonaut Classic. Fortis has shortened the lugs from 53mm that's on the Fortis B-42 down to 50mm, making the watch wearable for people with 7" wrists. For a three hander, I would go with the Sinn 104 with the lined indices (not the Arabic numbers). That watch has a LOT of versatility. Keep in mind though, I consider Sinn 556 and 104 as entry-level Sinn watches as they don't have any of the technology Sinn is famous for.


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## cbogdan

Hello,

I am hijacking a little this thread as I have a question about a Fortis B-42 Cosmonauts Chronograph (638.10) offer with box and papers, metal bracelet, mint condition (photos confirm) but it is from 2006, 'completely serviced' this year... Price 2100 euro. What do you guys think? I also saw one at an AD but with leather strap at 2400 euro after a discount. I guess this looks like a no brainer but just to confirm, I would like the steel bracelet...
I'm also looking at a Sinn 103 St Sa with steel bracelet at 2160 euro (directly from Sinn) but as you guys mentioned already it does seem to be a little overpriced as there's no special Sinn technology in this watch whatsoever. Just to clarify, I'm from Europe hence the prices on these pieces.


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## aball

I have a Fortis and a Sinn. Overall the Sinn is a bit better: My Fortis has always run fast and the power reserve falls short since new. The Sinn however is spot on for both. But I am actually in the market for a second Fortis, so clearly it hasn't been an issue for me. It's hard to beat the Fortis at their price point. If I were to get another Sinn, it would be a 103.


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## Ignaceworang

I have owned both in the past and as own 103 at present. As far as my experience goes, both presents great value for the price but 103 slightly ahead due to the variety it offers.


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## m577a2

I never could stand the way the smaller numbers on the outer dial of the Fortis watches change direction. I would definitely opt for the Sinn.


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## iBlake

Matt_UKTX said:


> Very true... I am being honest with myself, I think I really want the Sinn and am just trying to justify the extra cost (which is significant), since I can get the Fortis from Jomashop for 50% off.
> 
> 
> 
> Gopher said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would go with the Fortis. I have the older version of the Chrono you are considering (almost ten years now and it still looks new). I just took it in for its first service. The Fortis double-AR crystals are unreal. I get a lot of comments on mine. And fit and finish is top-notch.
> 
> That said, the only way to know is to handle them, so you may want to get both and return one (assuming the return policy is liberal enough). The downside (or upside, depending on perspective) is that you may want to keep both!
> 
> Finally, we cannot tell you which one to get. My experience from being on watch forums for a decade is that people generally know what they want and are merely looking for justification fot their decision.
Click to expand...

Been there. My advice is take the Sinn. Doesn't matter if the Fortis has better specs or not, if the Sinn worth the extra cost or not. Eventually you will eat yourself and you will regret for taking the Fortis even that you can get it at better price simply because your heart and guts like it more. Go for the one you think is the most appealing for you, not your wife or friends.


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## E8ArmyDiver

Even though this decision was made long ago I'm going to throw in for future ref...
Completely DISAGREE with Sinn over Fortis!!!
I paid full pop from an AD for the U1SE & sold it within a week!The PVD finish was GARBAGE,showing heavy wear under the clasp & several links after 2 hours wear.The Bezel insert was a half click off & the crown had a bit of wobble when winding!Accept for the sub steel the Christopher Ward Trident Pro 600 Vintage is a better watch in every way for about 60% LESS than the Sinn!!! 
As for Fortis my Mars 500 Chronograph is EVERY bit a better watch than Sinn!!Tougher PVD finish,bezel lines up perfectly(not in the pic,my fault),the AR coating is equal to the Sinn any day AND the Sinn ran +2 seconds in 24 hours where my Mars 500 has run -2 seconds in 192 HOURS!!!
It's a sin to waste $$$ on a Sinn!!!


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## Tonystix

Sinn!


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## fsdigital12

Fortis and Sinn are both underrated IMO.


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## tanatron

I'll throw in one of my pictures. I put the Fortis on top because it is by far the best of the three "tool chronos".


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## E8ArmyDiver

tanatron said:


> I'll throw in one of my pictures. I put the Fortis on top because it is by far the best of the three "tool chronos".
> 
> View attachment 13201701


FANTASTIC rotation!


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## kwill

> ...because it is by far the best of the three "tool chronos".


Why? I'm not challenging you but would like to understand your criteria/reasoning. Thanks.


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## tanatron

Obviously it is a very personal assesment, first of all the titanium case with its silky finish, semi matt teflon pushers and crown which you can grip with ease, the BEST double antireflective coating I have ever seen, maybe bar Breitling, the coin edge bezel is superbe everything gives you a LUXURIOUS experience when wearing the watch.
Fit and finish wise it a better watch all around, the case is a multi faceted and stilish case and yet retaining its tool watch roots, the "integrated" leather strap is a joy to wear. It is the ONLY watch (apart from the recent A-13A Pilot watch) that ever gets complimented by other watch nuts (and AD salesmen from various brands as a matter of fact) when they see it in the flesh as well as casual observers. Lume is complete and better, hands and all the numerals.
The dial...well, I think that Fortis does the most beautiful dials on the market, its busy but soooo legible.
And you cannot forget, history wise, that this watch was used for a ton of missions on the ISS (and its a good conversation starter!). It gives you the feeling of having something special on the wrist.
This is the real thing not a wannabe tool watch. I owned it since 2013 and I timed it almost 20 times since. The plus/minus goes from a +0.54 s/d to 1.45 s/d max over a period of 5 years. COSC time!
I feel not out of place in wearing it with a suit in the office or with a jeans and a tshirt. I feel its a more complete watch all around (everything of course IMHO).


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## chronobn

Prefer Sinn over Fortis, personal preference.


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## socal74

I have the same dilemma. I have been looking at a couple of different Fortis and Sinn models and am having a hard time deciding between them. I like the Sinn 103 and the Fortis Cosmonaut Classic. I also like the Sinn 104. decisions, decisions....


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## WatchProblem

Find them used and buy both! Dilemma averted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kwill

I have a Sinn 104A that I bought new and an older Fortis Cosmonaut that I bought used. I like them both. Generally, I like the aesthetics of Sinn over Fortis but I think Fortis offers a better value.


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## MES1808

Matt_UKTX said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I'm relatively new to posting in this forum, although I've been a longtime reader... I've recently become a collector of watches, and am trying to decide on my next timepiece. The more I look and read, the more confused I get. I was hoping I could post here to get some good advice and different perspectives. If nothing else, it will be nice to see the debate that follows
> 
> First, let me me tell you about the watches currently in my collection:
> 
> - Omega Seamaster 300M (Black Face)
> https://www.omegawatches.com/watches...1230412001003/
> This was a wedding gift from my wife, and therefore will never be sold. I have both the metal bracelet and the "snoopy" cordura strap with deployment buckle. Right now, I am wearing it on the latter.
> 
> - Seiko Turtle SRP773
> Seiko USA / Collections / Prospex / Men / Watch Model / SRP773
> This is my "beater" watch, although I take very good care of it. I wear it on a thick brown non-tapered leather strap with PAM style buckle.
> 
> - Halios Delfin (Stainless Steel)
> First Impression: Halios Delfin - Wound For LifeWound For Life
> This was a "grail" watch for me. Hunted for it for weeks, and finally found one in new condition from someone on this forum. I wear it on the supplied brown leather strap and PAM style buckle.
> 
> - Carpenter M7 Field
> https://carpenterwatches.com/collect...brooklyn-field
> This was a recent purchase as my collection lacked a good field watch and a watch with a light (cream/white) face. I love this watch as it has elements of bauhaus influence to it.
> 
> Here's what I am considering:
> 
> Sinn 103:
> Sinn 103 St Sa E Limited Edition on Strap
> Sinn 103 St Acrylic on Strap (I would get the brown strap version)
> 
> Sinn 104:
> Sinn 104 A St Sa on Strap
> Sinn 104 I St Sa White on Strap
> 
> Fortis Aviatis:
> Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional Chronograph on Strap
> Fortis Aviatis Flieger Professional on Strap
> Fortis Aviatis Cockpit Two on Strap
> 
> Fortis Cosmonautis:
> Fortis Official Cosmonautis on Strap


I prefer the Sinn over Fortis. Sinn is much more recognized as a brand in the watch community and even beyond. The quality is amazing. The only problem is that with this increasing fame the prices are also increasing. Fortis has been in financial problems for a while and their brand recognition is lower than Sinn, hence the better prices. Fortis is, as the name suggests, very strong and bold but at a cost of refinement. Sinn is more refined and simple in its elegance. Finally, for resale purposes a classic Sinn like the U1 or the 556 will always fetch higher prices than the Fortis -- which you'll need to take a bath in order to resell.


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## N30g30

i ended up getting a 3 handed sinn and will one day get a fortis chrono - i had the same questions as yourself


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