# Sticky  Getting Started: Guide to Watchmaking Tools



## vbomega

Almost every week or so folks who want to get started on watchmaking ask an eternal question: What tools should I buy?

Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. Let's try a new approach this time. Instead of just listing the tools, let's focus on a job. Clearly, if your objective is to take apart and put back together a movement you will need one set of tools. But if you are taking apart a watch, and properly servicing the movement (disassembly, inspection, cleaning, assembly, lubrication, timing, casing), you will need a larger set of tools. 
Let's start with a bare minimum.

*STAGE I: TAKING APART BARE MOVEMENT*
I am opposed to wasting money on subpar tools. Which doesn't necessarily mean buying top-of-the-line, top-dollar tools. It simply means getting quality tools that would not only last, but will also prevent "accidents" and help you learn proper skills. If you are planning to become a professional, only get the best tools. If you only plan to work on vintage movements as a hobbyist, there are money saving opportunities for less critical tools (mostly listed in STAGE II).

To take apart a movement that is not in a case and has no dial/hands, you will need to secure the movement in movement holder. To be able to see what is going on, you need an eye loupe. To disassemble the watch you will need precision screwdrivers and tweezers. A parts tray helps to store movement parts. This is basically all you need to take a movement apart, and put it back together. Here is the shopping list with typical prices (I also included part numbers from O. Frei for easy reference). Keep in mind that this kit does not contain tools for replacing mainspring in the barrel. You can still open the barrel, but don't take out the mainspring. Cannon pinion can be removed by cheap heavy-duty tweezers, like FB-2024 $3.99 (just don't use it for anything else). Alternatively, you can use a pin vise (method, recommended by Henry Fried).

1. Movement Holder, Bergeon 4040 Classic Large FB-807 $21.50
(Good alternative: FB-807-P $22.60) (*)
2. Covered Parts and Movement Tray FB-117 $5.95
3. Bausch & Lomb 4X Loupe FB-603 $11.50
4. Bergeon 5461 Headband for In-the-Eye Loupes $5.20
5. Style #2, Original Dumoxel (Anti-Mag Stainless) Dumont Tweezers FB-1403 $22.20 (**)
6. AF Switzerland Screw Driver Set, 9 assorted sizes, AF18980, $72.60 (***)
(Alternatives: buy individual screwdrivers, sizes 0.60, 0.80, 1.00, 1.20, 1.40)
7. (Optional) Brass OO style tweezers, Low Cost Made in India (for removing cannon pinions) FB-2024 $3.99 or a Pin Vise ~$20 at O. Frei for Bergeon, or ~$5 from eBay.

(*) I personally own the plastic one. I like it better because it is well made and will not leave marks on the movement. IMO, well worth the extra $1.
(**) Notes on tweezers: While there are cheaper tweezers out there, Dumont #2 is well worth the few extra dollars. Do yourself a favor, DO NOT SAVE MONEY ON TWEEZERS! This is by far the most important tool.
(***) Notes on screwdrivers: There are many options here. It seems like Bergeon screwdrivers are considered overpriced and not that great. I can't really comment on these as I never used Bergeon screwdrivers. I personally prefer to keep my screwdrivers in a wooden box, and my own screwdrivers are AF Switzerland MSA-01.300 ($84.95). I really like them, but prefer to buy more expensive Horotec spare blades as they seem to be better finished and last longer. Another option is to buy several screwdrivers without rotating base or wooden box. 99% of the time you will need the following sizes: 0.50, 0.60, 0.80, 1.00, 1.20 and 1.40. I can't remember the last time I used the 1.60mm screwdriver (maybe when I was working on a 19 ligne pocket watch). Sometime in the future, when you start working on balances/hairsprings, you will need to buy 0.50, which is typically not included in sets.

*STAGE II: TAKING APART A WATCH*
So the main difference here is that you need to be able to open a case without causing damage. It is also essential to be able to replace plastic crystals on vintage watches. And finally, remove hands and dial without scratching the dial and bending hands. Obviously, you still need the tools listed above, plus a couple of case opening tools (Jaxa-type and snap back case opener). Jaxa-type tool selection seems to be a controversial subject. Typically, the cheaper the tool, more issues you may encounter. I was lucky to pick mine for around $6 and it works great, just like a $100 one. But I heard many horror stories from owners of inexpensive Jaxa tools. Read the reviews, proceed with caution. Same is true for Presto-type tool to remove hands. I bought a couple on eBay for a couple dollars each including shipping from China. Selected a better one and slightly adjusted - now works well. As a hobbyist, I can't justify buying a $50+ Bergeon Presto tool. But if I worked on expensive watches, I would! Dial protection is essential and inexpensive. To install hands, it is helpful to have a hand-setting tool. There are many available. I own a hand-setter that looks like Horotec MSA05.015 that goes for $98.10. Mine cost around $5 (eBay, from Chinese seller). Works great! I highly recommend to get a crystal lift. Bergeon tool is more expensive and better made, but Anchor (India made) works fine.

1. New Economy Case Wrench for Small and Large Watches CWR-602.00 $24.50
(Alternatives: FB-240 $14.95, or many other kinds available on Amazon or eBay) 
2. Swiss Case Knife FB-287 $19.95 (there are many cheaper alternatives - this one is just an example of what you will need).
3. Bergeon Dial Protector BERG-6938 $1.38
4. Presto-type hand remover - est. $5 on eBay (or FB-405 $52.50)
5. Hand Setting Tool - est. $5 on eBay (or a variety of quality tools costing $50-$800. For me the choice was obvious)
6. Economy Crystal lift 159.102 $26.50 (or Bergeon Crystal Lift FB-2210 $67.95).
*
NEXT STEP: Making Life Easier And Other Important Accessories*
So you tried it and you liked it. A few tangled hairsprings and lost parts didn't stop you from wanting to do more. Like taking apart the balance, shock-protection devices and servicing the mainspring. And them moving on to cleaning and lubrication. Good!
By now you probably realized that you need a few more tools, and most importantly, an ergonomically proper watchmaker's bench. Unless you are a professional, or want to build your own, there is a very decent alternative. It's called Tabletop Mini Watchmaker's Bench. It is simply awesome! Best $89 I spent in a while. Unfortunately, this bench is known to have inconsistent quality of finish. If you order online, make sure you ask them to inspect it before shipping. I was buying on site, and had to choose from 3 (all of them had cosmetic blemishes).
A few observations about mainspring winders. Any watchmaker needs them. I believe that any serious hobbyist needs them too. In fact, this was one of the first tools that I bought. Here is the caveat. If you buy them new, they are obscenely expensive! So you will need to do some research on the subject and find decent usable vintage winders. There are generally 2 types, and if you want to work on both wrist and pocket watches, you will likely need 2 sets: one for wristwatches, and the other one for pocket watches. There are also different styles of winders. I own 3 sets. 2 for wristwatches up to 13 ligne, and 1 set for pocket watches. The reason for having 2 sets for wristwatches is because hooks are somewhat worn out on vintage winders, and 2 sets compliment each other. Expect to spend $30 and up for 1 set of winders. Mine cost more. 
Pith, Pegwood and rodico are essential accessories. You need them. So is lint free watch paper. For hairspring work, you need style #5 tweezers, 0.50mm screwdriver, and 10x loupe.
Dust blower is good to have. You can get one for ~$12, or save money and get one on eBay for much less.

1. Tabletop Mini Watchmaker's Bench DBP220-1 $89.00
2. Mainspring Winders $30+ (eBay)
3. Pithwood Buttons FB-107 $7.80
4. Peg Wood Bundle FB-106 $7.90
5. Rodico FB-309-1 $5.30
6. Bausch and Lomb 10x Loupe (or you can get a more expensive one, but that's not critical) FB-602 $13.49
7. Style #5, Original Dumoxel (Anti-Mag Stainless) Dumont Tweezers, Swiss MadeFB-1802 $23.20
8. Lint Free Watch PaperFB-308 $8.50
9. French Made Screwdriver AF18978.050 $9.85
10. Dust Blower FB-302 11.60

*STAGE III: INTRODUCTION TO CLEANING *
This is a controversial subject. There are different opinions how to _properly_ clean movements. I personally use a generic ($50) ultrasonic cleaner, which I only use for "modern" (1950-) movements. I've had great success with this ultrasonic cleaning machine, and I always use L&R cleaning/rinsing solutions. I never had any modern movement parts or finish negatively affected by ultrasonic cleaning. WARNING: Ultrasonic cleaning may and will damage plating on old movements. For these I do not use ultrasonic machine, but manually clean plates and bridges. So basically you need to understand what you are doing. Cleaning solutions are relatively expensive: $40/gallon. They last a while, but the cost is high. I heard success stories of using lighter fluids and other L&R surrogates. I haven't used any, so I can't recommend any replacement solutions.
You need 3 containers. I use 100ml Ball Glass Jars that are very cheap and work great. One for washing and two for rinsing. Cleaning baskets from Bergeon are obscenely expensive ($29 apiece). Instead you can buy Indian-made brass baskets on eBay, but use them at your risk! These baskets have inconsistent quality, so sometimes tiny parts get stuck inside. I couldn't justify spending >$100 on Bergeon baskets, so I have to very carefully load my brass ones. Some folks use tea infusers, but these have similar flaws.
One Dip hairspring cleaner can be used on its own, or before/after normal cleaning. I usually use it for cap jewels and pallet stones only. Exercise caution - it is dangerous to inhale the fumes. Use adequate ventilation and limit your exposure to it.

1. Ultrasonic Machine L&R LR-PC3 $199 (or ~$50-70 on eBay for a Chinese-made)
2. L&R Ultrasonic watch cleaning solution (LR-112 $42, or FB-330 $41)
3. L&R Ultrasonic watch rinsing solution (FB-331 $41)
4. Ball Glass Jars (4-pack, $5)
5. Cleaning baskets. (2x23mm, 4x16mm) ~$25-35 for India-made, $$$ for Bergeon.
6. Rubber gloves ($10+ at your favorite pharmacy. You don't want to handle these liquids without gloves).
7. One Dip Hairspring Cleaner 142.0501 $14.80 (USE WITH CAUTION!)
8. Lint Free Watch Paper FB-308 $8.50 (if you don't already have it, now is the time to buy)
9. Covered Parts and Movement Tray FB-117 $5.95 (You need 2. First one for dirty parts, the second one for clean. It is very cheap and convenient).

*STAGE IV: OILING/LUBRICATION TOOLS*
Assuming the movement is now clean and is being assembled, there are some obvious tools needed for oiling: Oilers and oil cups. There are a couple of easy/inexpensive choices for oilers, and it's a bit more complicated when it comes to oil cups. I used both options listed below - standard Bergeon plastic handle oilers, and metal handle ones. Main difference between plastic handle oilers and metal is the are the tips. Plastic handle oilers have flat tips, and metal - round. I liked both. They work well for oiling anything, but not fine enough to oil through jewel holes on vintage movements. Proper oiler costs $80, and I don't have first-hand experience with it, so not recommending below. Similarly, nice oil cups from Bergeon cost a fortune. I have a cheap Bergeon Plastic Oil Cup 3 holes in 1. I paid less than $10 for it. Unfortunately, I don't think O. Frei sells them. I bought mine on eBay. It works very well, and is easy to clean. To transfer oil from vials into the holes, I use precision screwdriver, which is thoroughly cleaned before dipping into the vial.
This is pretty much everything you need to take care of 95% of lubrication needs. I am reluctant to give recommendations on oil, as this proves to be a very controversial subject. I used Moebius, Novostar (almost full range) and KT-22. If there is interest, I can share my thoughts, otherwise do your own research and buy accordingly.

1. Bergeon Precision Dip Oilers (FB-904, FB-921, FB-905, FB-906: $3.20 per oiler) or Set of Four Metal Handle Dip Oilers (OL-359M $12.99)
2. Bergeon (or generic) Plastic Oil Cup 3-in-1 (est. $6-12 on eBay, Amazon, etc).

In the next few days I will be adding pictures of these tools, and also adding more sections. Stay tuned...


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## James Roettger

What about a canon pinion puller. I see you recommend a brass tweezers for this, haven't tried that as some seem very stubborn. I'm a hobbyist and have found mine very useful. I love ebay for watch tools. A little rust equals a huge discount.


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## vbomega

James Roettger said:


> What about a canon pinion puller. I see you recommend a brass tweezers for this, haven't tried that as some seem very stubborn. I'm a hobbyist and have found mine very useful. I love ebay for watch tools. A little rust equals a huge discount.


I admit, I wasn't trying hard to get a vintage cannon pinion puller. New Bergeon is $99. 00 style brass tweezers work perfectly. Soft enough not to cause any damage, and I had 100% success with 50+ movements I used these on. Actually, more like 60+ movements now...


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## James Roettger

I got a vintage puller for about $8. I like the puller because it pulls perfectly straight. I would be concerned about bending the staff with a tweezers as the pull comes from the side. I got a real nice set of main spring winders (some cosmetic rust) for about $40 on ebay.


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## vbomega

Updated with section on cleaning.


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## vbomega

James Roettger said:


> I got a vintage puller for about $8. I like the puller because it pulls perfectly straight. I would be concerned about bending the staff with a tweezers as the pull comes from the side.


Alternatively, a pin vise can be used, but needs to be tightened very slightly. This is the method recommended by Henry Fried in his book "The Watch Repairer's Manual". I personally never needed this method, and never caused any damage to center wheel by using brass tweezers to pull cannon pinion from the side. Certainly, nothing wrong with using a vintage puller, if one can be obtained.


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## augustorm

Does Frei or anyone else offer a starter kit for maintenance and battery swaps that you would reccomend?

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


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## Ben_hutcherson

The best style canon pinion puller I've used


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## vbomega

augustorm said:


> Does Frei or anyone else offer a starter kit for maintenance and battery swaps that you would reccomend?


If I understand your question correctly, you are looking for a battery replacement kit. Unfortunately, I don't know if Frei offers any such kits. I also don't really have much experience with quartz watches to offer any valuable advice.


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## augustorm

Basically I want to be able to take off the case back on all my watches in order to maintain them. I have all types. I just didn't know if after the case back was off what to expect. Perhaps just trial and error. I was pretty much hoping that there was a tool kit out there that would have the majority of items needed to perform battery changes on most watches as well as removing the movement for maintenance. I have collected for a while now but have never opened up anything. I could see, over time, how battery replacements could become spendy. I have a table picked out and on order along with the movement holder you use. I will re-read but I don't recall you mentioning a case back removal tool. For my needs atm I dont believe I will need a bezel remover. Perhaps later. It looks like I'm going to have to buy the tools piece by except for the screwdriver set.

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2


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## chévere

This was a huge help. I just ordered myself some A-F screwdrivers and tweezers. I look forward to seeing your setup and tools.


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## Piloto

Subscribing |>

I just ordered a basic set of tools. I have two focuses in mind:

1. Inspect new acquisitions (auction watches).

2. Between the wife and I, we still have 5-6 quartz watches. I would like to be able to do the batteries and very basic inspection/maintenance myself. 

3... WAY down the road, I would like to learn cleaning and oiling. I mean waaaaaaaaaay down the road. Baby steps. It will be YEARS before I think of tinkering with one of my autos.

Thanks for the great thread!


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## vbomega

Ok guys and gals, time for some pictures. 

Let's start with the basics. I strongly believe that having a proper work space is critical for watchmaking. When I was starting out, my back used to hurt from hunching over the movement. Fortunately, this desk is as close to the real thing as can be without breaking your wallet (especially if you don't have to pay for shipping. :-d). Unfortunately, these desks' finish may be very inconsistent, but mostly on non-work surfaces. Not great aesthetically. O. Frei lady had to open 3 boxes for me so that I could choose the best. If you order one and can't personally select, ask them to check it before shipping.

The lamp (on picture 2) was bought in IKEA. You need light to work! Also, take a look at covered part trays. These are inexpensive and excellent.


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## vbomega

Movement holders. As I stated earlier, Bergeon 4040 is what I use. Mine is slightly more expensive (plastic). It is durable, and holds movements up to 13 ligne (or maybe even slightly larger). I find it frustrating at times, but the key is never to have to force anything. If your movement is slipping out of the holder, it is because you are pressing too hard with a tool. DON'T DO THAT.
I also purchase a cheap large movement holder, which is convenient for casework and for, eh, large movements. For a few bucks I paid for it, it is more than adequate.


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## vbomega

Loupes and headband. Mandatory! B&L 4x is fine, and 10x is adequate. If you want to treat yourself to a much nicer (but still not a top-of-the-line), buy a Horotec 10x.


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## vbomega

Tweeeezers! So the 2 main styles are 2 and 5. Just get Dumont Dumoxel and move on. Don't bother with Chinese/Indian stuff. For serious work you need excellent tweezers, and Dumont is generally considered to be industry standard. I absolutely love them, and even bought 2 more - one brass and one #5 Dumostar, which is very expensive, but gives me the "feel" I was looking for. I still use both #5 style tweezers I have. Also look at the picture comparing a Chinese-made Vetus "Style 5" and the real thing. You can see the difference. I can't use Vetus #5 for taking apart shock protection devices, it is too thick! You get what you pay for.


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## GeneJockey

One thing I would say is not to give up on the idea of getting a watchmakers bench.

When I started out working on watches, I QUICKLY realized that I could not work hunched over at the table in a standard chair. There was no way to see and work at the same time. I took the opposite approach from vbomega's - instead of raising the work, I lowered the worker. ;-) I used an old ottoman to sit on which placed the table top at mid-chest height. This made all the difference! But I had to clear off my work area periodically for dinners, and there were many other issues.

One day, completely on a whim, I searched the local Craigs List for 'Watchmaker Desk', and by golly, THERE WAS ONE!










We went and got it for only $265 - way less than the price new from Frei!. But it needed to be refinished to achieve Spousal Acceptance. It had been badly re-stained and refinished. Darn thing looked like it had been in a fire!










With that done, it has taken its place in the living area, and I no longer have to worry about things getting pushed off the edge when the kids clear the table for dinner!










EDIT: Oh, and most of the things that vbomega recommends can be found used for cheaper than Frei charges, if you're willing to search, and wait. Everything except, oddly enough, screwdrivers. I still have to get me a good set of AF Switzerlands for the smaller sizes - the bigger ones only get used once during disassembly and once during reassembly at most.


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## vbomega

Lovely bench.

Ok, moving on to screwdrivers. What I was just starting out I didn't want to buy uber-expensive screwdrivers, but to get a set that would be reasonably priced and satisfy my needs for a long time. I still believe that I made the right choice with AF Switzerland. There are nicer choices out there, but unless you are a professional you probably won't need anything else. I bought 1 Horotec screwdriver recently to check them out. It is nicer made, and I like it a lot, but I am not limited by AF Switzerland in any way. So...


I do prefer the Horotec blades though. They are compatible with AF S, and well worth the extra $.


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## vbomega

GeneJockey said:


> ...most of the things that vbomega recommends can be found used for cheaper than Frei charges, if you're willing to search, and wait. ....


Indeed. In fact, certain tools _should_ be bought used, like a staking set and mainspring winders. The caveat is that you need certain watchmaking experience to be able to buy the right stuff in adequate condition. I remember buying inexpensive mainspring winders without knowing that hooks may just not be there anymore after decades of use. You live, you learn. I just prefer to learn watchmaking with a basic set of quality tools. I don't think you would save much by buying used tools a la carte and paying separate shipping charges and deal with potential problems. But I would leave this decision to the readers.

Either way, happy watchmaking!


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## vbomega

And finally (for today), a Crystal Lift! It is needed for removing/replacing crystals on mostly vintage watches with plastic crystals. It will be your only option to access the movement in certain watches. Pictured here is the Anchor lift, made in India. Seems to work well.


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## GeneJockey

vbomega said:


> Indeed. In fact, certain tools _should_ be bought used, like a staking set and mainspring winders. The caveat is that you need certain watchmaking experience to be able to buy the right stuff in adequate condition.


Abso-froggin'-lutely! A used tool in good condition that cost a lot less than a new one is a jewel. A used tool that cost a lot less than a new one but doesn't work is a turd. I own a couple of those, I'm ashamed to admit!



> I just prefer to learn watchmaking with a basic set of quality tools. I don't think you would save much by buying used tools a la carte and paying separate shipping charges and deal with potential problems.


You can find bargains, but you have to have sufficient knowledge to distinguish them from the dross. Good example is the used tweezers I bought. They came as a set of 8, all Swiss, mostly Dumont. There were 4 other lots at the same time, but I knew I wanted a good #5. I studied the pictures exhaustively, set up my snipe, and won. They are SO MUCH BETTER than the incredibly cheap ones I started with, but when I started I'd have had no idea how to choose the ones I wanted.

Screwdrivers - I've gotten good service out of a cheap set I bought, but only because I used to sharpen broadheads and hunting knives and had a feeling for stoning the tips. I would have greatly preferred to start out with AF Switzerlands, at the least.

The problem was, I was not sure I'd have any ability to do the work.

Now, looking back, I've been able to pick up a dozen or more nonrunning or barely running watches on Ebay for very cheap that I could put right. It would have been worth the expense to buy the best tools. But if I'd spent that much and turned out all thumbs? No!

Bottom line is as you recommend - get the best tools you can afford. And the lists you've compiled are excellent for that.


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## pithy

GeneJockey said:


> .. . . . . . . .... Bottom line is as you recommend - get the best tools you can afford. And the lists you've compiled are excellent for that.


I agree with you.

Should this be a "sticky"?

p


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## GeneJockey

pithy said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> Should this be a "sticky"?
> 
> p


Seconded!

EDIT: It would benefit from a bit of formatting, though. vbomega - the carriage return is your friend!


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## Robb Ludwig

I would make one small, niggling suggestion--Change the title to "Guide to Watch Repairer's Tools". 

Then I would ask whether anyone thinks another thread would be worth starting over watchmaking tools? More specifically, I'd like to see one on lathes. I've been having grief fighting my old Moseley and am thinking about replacing it. The problem is I keep finding new lathe manufacturers that I haven't heard of before. And for some reason the Great Google has no clue when it comes to shopping suggestions about this subject. And de Carle and Goodrich's books are, dare I say, a bit dated.


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## emso

about lathes you could certainly ask stefan pahlow he has his chanel on youtube though i dont know if he is a member here

you can coment him on youtube
after i saw his equipment i was excited how can someone spend so much money on that pieces.

he does some restoration work on those videos and it is joy to see him work.

br
emso


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## Robb Ludwig

Thanks emso!

I ran across his videos a while ago. I think I've watched most all of them. Er liebt seine Lorch.


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## jcoffin1981

I would like to share my experience as a newer hobbyist in regards to tools. First of all, the quality screwdrivers are absolutely essential. But on there is a cheaper option for the AF screwdrivers. On there ofrei website, there is a 5 screwdriver set for $28, including 0.6mm, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.4. This will have most of your needs met, and any other ones you need you may purchase individually.

I didn't wanna spend 25 dollars on a movement holder, and I was afraid that the metal would bark up the movement surface, so I purchased a holder with nylon pegs for 7 dollars on amazon. It was a nightmare to use. It would never hold it securely, it would always pop out or move, and it was a real pain working round the pegs. I just purchased the Bergeon 4040 movement holder for about 25 dollars, and it was money well spend. I love it! Please do get this movement holder. It will make your life easier.


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## T_I

pithy said:


> Should this be a "sticky"?


I would say, yes it should. I'm glad I got the pointer to this thread, but making it a sticky would help lots of people.


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## vbomega

Unfortunately, I can't make it sticky. A forum moderator could.


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## Jeffza

Cool thread.


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## AcridSaint

Hi, I also think this should be a sticky. I used it as a guide when ordering tools last week, although I'll admit that I took many liberties in the tools that I chose. 

I think the title is good, as-is, because if it's changed to watchmaking tools in general, it could be construed as to cover things beyond what beginners want or need. What someone just getting started in servicing or modding needs is not the same as what someone looking to upgrade, someone getting "back in" needs, or even someone who wants to just drop a lot of money at once and get "the best". This is perfect for folks getting started.


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## Dingo5

jcoffin1981 said:


> I would like to share my experience as a newer hobbyist in regards to tools. First of all, the quality screwdrivers are absolutely essential. But on there is a cheaper option for the AF screwdrivers. On there ofrei website, there is a 5 screwdriver set for $28, including 0.6mm, 0.8, 1.0, 1.2, 1.4. This will have most of your needs met, and any other ones you need you may purchase individually.


Thanks for the heads up, that's exactly the quality of screwdrivers I was looking for. Grabbed a rubber ball (on sale) and Japanese style spring bar tool too since I was paying shipping already.


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## pandahill

Sticky.
I think this thread is awesome to prevent us newbies thinking we can spend $10 on an ebay 16 piece watch repair kit and think we can service a vintage watch with it.


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## pithy

This thread is OK.

p

-------------------------------

Mods: Thanks for making this thread a sticky (finally).

-------------------------------


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## JohnP33

Thanks for all this info and the time spent putting it together.


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## ibigler

Great Post!! Very informative and I'd say the information is spot on


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## dacattoo

My first six months in watchmaking school (Wostep) I didn't touch a watch. It seems to me newbies all want to start at the end and not the beginning. All the tools in the world are not going to make one a watchmaker just as an expensive set of golf clubs won't make you a Tiger.


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## vbomega

dacattoo said:


> My first six months in watchmaking school (Wostep) I didn't touch a watch. It seems to me newbies all want to start at the end and not the beginning. All the tools in the world are not going to make one a watchmaker just as an expensive set of golf clubs won't make you a Tiger.


I think you are making a fine point about tools not making a watchmaker, however most newbies or hobbyists have a different goal than servicing other people's watches for a living.


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## vbomega

Ben_hutcherson said:


> The best style canon pinion puller I've used


About a month ago I finally bought one. I agree that this cannon pinion puller is the best, and is well worth buying.


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## Scabby12

Ah... I'm just about to embark on some watch play and have just purchased, yes you guessed it, a 155 piece watchmakers set off EBay for £20.

Bargain, thinks I, it'll have everything I'll ever need!! I also bought a press as well. Hey ho. I'll just have to see what arrives tomorrow. I've also ordered up Practical watch making by DeCarle.

I'm just hobbying and not going to touch anything too complicated or expensive for a long time. I'm going to buy a job lot of junkers to start with anyway so any disasters wont be, well, disastrous!! 

I'll let you know what horrors, or not?? arrive in the post - you've got me worried now.... 

Very interesting thread though, much appreciated.


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## dacattoo

There are "battery changing kits" but in my estimation, (I have probably changed 10,000 batteries or more) you can do better buying separately what you need. You will get better quality that way also. If you are just doing your own batteries I suggest a good case back knife and a tool to remove screwbacks. Before you take off that back, however, use a brush, horsehair is traditional, to clean off the back so you don't introduce dirt to the inside. This is very important.
Get a battery tester. Always test the battery when you remove it. Don't assume it is bad. If you do you will get confused when you install a new battery and it doesn't work. Consider a demagnetizer of some kind. The kind with a button that sends a pulse. Often a quartz movement will start if you can force the train to move momentarily. Gaskets, buy a variety or discover a source for individual ones. A grease cup and some silicon grease for the gaskets. A fine point felt tip pen to write the date of install on the inside of the caseback. You need a press to reinstall the casebacks, lots of variety there. Don't overlook vintage tools. They are often better quality and cheaper. There are other tools but for a personal toolkit I don't think they are necessary. It may be that paying a pro is cheaper depending on how many watches you own. Plus, the pro has one thing you won't find in a kit, experience.


----------



## Scabby12

Yeah, I will see what arrives in the toolkit Ive bought. I'm going to concentrate on old autos. I've bought several nice old well running Seiko 5, 17 & 21 jewelers lately and want to learn how to get a non-working one, well, working, as I've also bought a couple of these in nice cosmetic condition but non running. I know this isn't going to be easy but I'll buy a job lot of old ones and practice stripping and rebuilding them first before attempting anything on a good watch. I hope I'll learn the basics of watch construction/operation from this and also how my tools will perform. If I need to buy (lots??) more then so be it. Just going to be a hobby and I'm prepared to spend as much time as necessary gaining confidence before attacking anything for real.... Thanks for all the advice though, much appreciated


----------



## halifax

I've been trying to find a non-video walk-through of a watch disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly. Anyone seen such a site?


----------



## JimInOz

halifax said:


> I've been trying to find a non-video walk-through of a watch disassembly, cleaning, and reassembly. Anyone seen such a site?


You can try this one. It's transitioned into a self help forum I think but it gives you a good background to a point where you can finish off yourself.

Cheers
Jim

How to repair a Seiko 7S26 Automatic wrist watch


----------



## Megalo Milo

JimInOz said:


> You can try this one. It's transitioned into a self help forum I think but it gives you a good background to a point where you can finish off yourself.
> 
> Cheers
> Jim
> 
> How to repair a Seiko 7S26 Automatic wrist watch


Wow. I've been wanting to finally get into tinkering with movements and such but was overwhelmed with where to start. This is perfect.


----------



## bambam650

VBOmega, may I ask where you purchased your 9-piece A&F screwdriver set for $72? I'm finding that's a realy good price. The lowest I've seen for the 5-piece set #18985 is $65 not including shipping.


----------



## vbomega

bambam650 said:


> VBOmega, may I ask where you purchased your 9-piece A&F screwdriver set for $72? I'm finding that's a realy good price. The lowest I've seen for the 5-piece set #18985 is $65 not including shipping.


I bought mine at Otto Frei, but it is cheaper at Esslinger.


----------



## bambam650

I agree, it seems like Esslinger has very good prices. It doesn't look like they carry the A&F 9-piece set any more, but they do sell a 6-piece set in a wooden box for $74 which includes a .50. I also found a Burgeon 5-piece set from DRS Jewelry for $55 that has all the right sizes including a .50 which seems like a good deal. I probably end up buying this one. What do you think?
6 pc Professional Mini Screwdriver Set Flat Head Blades in Wood Box

5 PIECE SCREWDRIVER SET - BERGEON


----------



## vbomega

bambam650 said:


> I agree, it seems like Esslinger has very good prices. It doesn't look like they carry the A&F 9-piece set any more, but they do sell a 6-piece set in a wooden box for $74 which includes a .50.


It's a good set if you only plan on working with wristwatch movements. For pocket watches you will need 1.60, and very rarely 2.0.
It's a bit pricey for a 6-piece set. Check Otto Frei. Do you really need wooden case? Go to Otto Frei and search for *SCR-980.00*


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## bambam650

It's funny, when I googled this model number most of the sites that came up don't mention anything about who makes the set. Otto has this set listed under their french made screwdrivers. Star Time also says it's french made but on the photo they show the set is labeled A&F. Very confusing. Seems like the Burgeon swiss made 5-piece set from DRS is the best deal.


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## bambam650

It's funny, when I googled this model number most of the sites that came up don't mention anything about who makes the set. Otto has this set listed under their french made screwdrivers. Star Time also says it's french made but on the photo they show the set is labeled A&F. Very confusing. Seems like the Burgeon swiss made 5-piece set from DRS is the best deal.


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## Archer

vbomega said:


> It's a good set if you only plan on working with wristwatch movements. For pocket watches you will need 1.60, and very rarely 2.0.
> It's a bit pricey for a 6-piece set. Check Otto Frei. Do you really need wooden case? Go to Otto Frei and search for *SCR-980.00*


If you work on larger movemewnts, some found in wrist watches, you will need larger sizes frequently (to do the job properly anyway).

For example, here is a Panerai I have in the shop right now where someone certainly did not use the right sized driver on the crown wheel screw - you can clearly see that the driver was too narrow and thin for the slot, and the damage is evident at the red arrow locations:










Not to mention the hack job on the plate around the setting lever screw...OY!

So here is why you need drivers up to 3 mm - I use this one frequently on ETA 649X movements, and it fits the slot perfectly:










I know this is a "getting started" thread and budgets are usually not large, but if you start out with good habits it will carry through in your work and as you progress. It amazes me how lazy some people are about simply putting down one driver, and picking up another of the right size. I see it all the time, and yes from some work done in service centers unfortunately. This watch has a display back as well, so when mistakes like this happen, they are quite visible.

PS - Bergeon are "okay" drivers, but not the best by far IMO anyway. I don't currently own any - I sold them off when I bought a better set.

Cheers, Al


----------



## pithy

Have you driven over to Cas-Ker and tried any of them?


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## vbomega

Archer said:


> I know this is a "getting started" thread and budgets are usually not large, but if you start out with good habits it will carry through in your work and as you progress. It amazes me how lazy some people are about simply putting down one driver, and picking up another of the right size. I see it all the time, and yes from some work done in service centers unfortunately. This watch has a display back as well, so when mistakes like this happen, they are quite visible.
> 
> PS - Bergeon are "okay" drivers, but not the best by far IMO anyway. I don't currently own any - I sold them off when I bought a better set.
> 
> Cheers, Al


I agree. Whenever I initially cut corners to fit in my budget (the right thing to do if you are still testing your commitment to the hobby) I ended up upgrading, so I spent more money on certain essentials than I had to. AF Switzerland was my first set of screwdrivers. I later upgraded some of these to Horotec (sizes 0.60 - 1.00) - which I use most often and appreciate the "feel". There is one important thing to remember - bits are also very important. AF bits and Horotec bits are interchangeable, and Horotec bits are a bit higher quality and more expensive, but they are also "thicker". At this point, I am inclined to dress 3 bits per size with different thickness to fit different screws. Archer's pictures clearly show what happens when incorrect tools are used for the job. Unfortunately, it's not just the width of the slit, but also depth and thickness (may not be the right term, but you get the picture). No matter who makes a screwdriver, one screwdriver will never be able to fit all screws of that width. Thus you need to dress multiple bits per screwdriver.


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## mysterian

Thanks vbomega for starting this great thread. I've found it extremely valuable.

I have one question not yet covered here regarding case/crystal presses. I've tried a search on the forum but have not been able to find an answer.
Anyway,... the question is:
What is the difference between the various materials used for the press dies?
I notice that some might be made of bakelite,... some of nylon, and others of aluminum. 
I would like to buy a cheaper case press. The expensive ones will simply cut far too deep into my tool budget. I'm willing to put up with a bit of fuss in using the cheaper variety but I'm stumped on which way to go with the dies.

I was thinking of this set from Esslinger: LINK

Are there better alternatives?
Any tips on how to use these effectively?

Cheers!


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## emso

regarding this i must admit i did not want to save money.
i bought a bergeon 5500 press and believe it or not it was not flat, when i closed the dies i had 0.5mm opening on one side.
so i had to invest in 6173 press also from bergeon and i must admit i'm very satisfied with it.

i like the aluminium dies as theyre strong but the make damage on the cases if you dont use a plastic bag between the case and the die.

i liked the plastic ones but i had a problem when the thread was damaged after some use (not very long)

so my next quest is plastic ones but with a thread of metal in the middle.

br
emso


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## vbomega

For "light" hobbyist use, plastic ones work fine (at least worked great for me). You only need them for crystals with tension rings and on snap-in casebacks. I had my press for a year and it's as good as new. Paid something like $20 at Otto Frei.


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## mysterian

Thanks so much for the quick replies guys!
I'm truly in the "light hobbyist" "beginner" category, & I'll primarily be using a press mostly for stubborn snap case backs. 
Fingers crossed,... I hope it does the trick!

Cheers!


----------



## gbpackk

Thanks Vebomega for this thread and the time it took you to provide it. Also thanks to all that have added to it. I am really getting a lot of great info. I posted this on another area but thougt I would bring it here too to introduce myself: " Hi, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to this site and am new to watch repair/collecting. I have been a machinist and copier repair tech for my whole life. Due to a back injury and now back surgery this week I find myself at a bit of a cross roads. Some here might understand I find myself to be 50 yrs old and in the beginning of a carrier change. I have always been fascinated by pocket watches and grandfather clocks. I love the mechanics of them and find a real interest in repairing and collecting. I was hoping some might be willing to share tips for beginning in this field. I know I need to do my own homework and research myself and this site is fantastic for that. ( I have the time as I recuperate) lol
Was just hoping for some tips on books, tools , needed items, setting up work spaces, watches to avoid, tricks and tips to start etc. Any info would be appreciated. Again thanks in advance and my prayer is that in the future I might be able to contribute to this fine site myself. "


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## I-3watches

Does one need a battery tester that tests the battery without opening the watch and also checks the circuits on a quartz


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## I-3watches

gbpackk said:


> Thanks Vebomega for this thread and the time it took you to provide it. Also thanks to all that have added to it. I am really getting a lot of great info. I posted this on another area but thougt I would bring it here too to introduce myself: " Hi, I wanted to introduce myself. I am new to this site and am new to watch repair/collecting. I have been a machinist and copier repair tech for my whole life. Due to a back injury and now back surgery this week I find myself at a bit of a cross roads. Some here might understand I find myself to be 50 yrs old and in the beginning of a carrier change. I have always been fascinated by pocket watches and grandfather clocks. I love the mechanics of them and find a real interest in repairing and collecting. I was hoping some might be willing to share tips for beginning in this field. I know I need to do my own homework and research myself and this site is fantastic for that. ( I have the time as I recuperate) lol
> Was just hoping for some tips on books, tools , needed items, setting up work spaces, watches to avoid, tricks and tips to start etc. Any info would be appreciated. Again thanks in advance and my prayer is that in the future I might be able to contribute to this fine site myself. "


Good luck with your back surgery as I have found myself in your position and am seeking answers as well on here. Hopefully one day we can both be on the road to what we are looking for. Cheers.


----------



## Guest

bambam650 said:


> It's funny, when I googled this model number most of the sites that came up don't mention anything about who makes the set. Otto has this set listed under their french made screwdrivers. Star Time also says it's french made but on the photo they show the set is labeled A&F. Very confusing. Seems like the Burgeon swiss made 5-piece set from DRS is the best deal.


Rebranded Lerrac's (Lerrac Outillage - Manufacture d'outillage pour l'horlogerie, bijouterie et l'optique - Les Fins (25) ). Facom, AF and others are doing this.


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## kitcarguy

Great thread, 

I read it and based on it purchased some basic tools from a local supply company. Saved me a lot of time and hassle.


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## bbc0

Scabby12 said:


> Yeah, I will see what arrives in the toolkit Ive bought. I'm going to concentrate on old autos. I've bought several nice old well running Seiko 5, 17 & 21 jewelers lately and want to learn how to get a non-working one, well, working, as I've also bought a couple of these in nice cosmetic condition but non running. I know this isn't going to be easy but I'll buy a job lot of old ones and practice stripping and rebuilding them first before attempting anything on a good watch. I hope I'll learn the basics of watch construction/operation from this and also how my tools will perform. If I need to buy (lots??) more then so be it. Just going to be a hobby and I'm prepared to spend as much time as necessary gaining confidence before attacking anything for real.... Thanks for all the advice though, much appreciated


10 years ago when I started fly tying I purchased a large box of materials from an estate auction sale. When I got it home my wife said it looked like the contents of someones 'junk drawer' and I think it was, but a few useful things in it more than covered my cost. Hope its the same or better for you.


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## robertbaruch

I'd like to hear about recommended cleaning supplies for older watches, from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The OP says that ultrasonics will ruin parts from watches older than 1950, but I'd like to know what the alternatives are.


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## FrankR

Hello,
I started reading "Watchmaking" by George Daniels. In the first chapter of the book there is talk of a "Pointing Machine".
There are no pictures of this machine, nor is there an adequate description of it. As far as I can make out it is something akin to a pantographe, for replicating drawings to scale.
Could someone please post a link to a picture of one? or perhaps give their own description of the machine and its purpose?

thanks.


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## FrankR

> I'd like to hear about recommended cleaning supplies for older watches, from the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The OP says that ultrasonics will ruin parts from watches older than 1950, but I'd like to know what the alternatives are.


Specifically the OP says ultrasonics will damange "plating" on old parts. Perhaps it is acceptable to use on the non-plated parts.


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## dacattoo

Tough to add to 7 pages of suggestions. Here is one that I discovered in a Goodwill store 10 years ago. I use it every day and toss it to my dog when I am finished with it. Then it is back to Goodwill for another. Score! 25 cents usually.







The right diameter to sit on my bench. Has a height of about an inch, allowing me some room underneath whatever I am working on. The surface sticks to the bench top and is easy on watch finishes. It is somewhat self healing. Driving a band pin into the surface won't destroy it. I love it. You will too I think. Best of all Bergeon doesn't sell them! Yet.


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## dacattoo

No


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## reynolcj

I use CL for everything, and for whatever reason, the idea of looking for an appreciable jewelers/watchmakers bench/desk escaped me. I was soooo close...one just sold w/ tools included for $250...the next best one is just the desk for $500 ha.

And so the search continues.

*vbomega*, thanks for initiating this---seems to have helped a lot of people get started in this (what I hope to be) wonderful hobby.



GeneJockey said:


> One thing I would say is not to give up on the idea of getting a watchmakers bench.
> 
> When I started out working on watches, I QUICKLY realized that I could not work hunched over at the table in a standard chair. There was no way to see and work at the same time. I took the opposite approach from vbomega's - instead of raising the work, I lowered the worker. ;-) I used an old ottoman to sit on which placed the table top at mid-chest height. This made all the difference! But I had to clear off my work area periodically for dinners, and there were many other issues.
> 
> One day, completely on a whim, I searched the local Craigs List for 'Watchmaker Desk', and by golly, THERE WAS ONE!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We went and got it for only $265 - way less than the price new from Frei!. But it needed to be refinished to achieve Spousal Acceptance. It had been badly re-stained and refinished. Darn thing looked like it had been in a fire!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With that done, it has taken its place in the living area, and I no longer have to worry about things getting pushed off the edge when the kids clear the table for dinner!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and most of the things that vbomega recommends can be found used for cheaper than Frei charges, if you're willing to search, and wait. Everything except, oddly enough, screwdrivers. I still have to get me a good set of AF Switzerlands for the smaller sizes - the bigger ones only get used once during disassembly and once during reassembly at most.


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## Arie Kabaalstra

I'm fairly new in watch repairs, but this is a very helpful thread..

*GeneJockey: *You were quite lucky with that workbench.. nice..

I have some tips that might be helpful.. For storage of parts for instance.. if you know someone working as a metal machinist.. ask him for empty insertboxes.. in cutting tools for metal, inserts made of tungsten carbide or ceramics are used.. these come in small plastic boxes, with a sliding lid.. with 5 or 10 compartments










as you can see.. an entire FE 68 movement fits inside.. 
these boxes often can be clicked together, so if you have multiple boxes containing parts of one movement.. click em together..so they stay together..

I'm a toolmaker by profession.. so making tools is what i did.. 
A movement holder.. no one can do without it.. so.. 2 hours in the shed.. and i had.. This










and a Case holder.. well.. i had some Polyethylene barstock and brass rod left over..










Works like a charm..

after having trouble with antimagnetic tweezers that weren't exactly antimagnetic.. i made my own tweezers out of some titanium sheet..

I love that "cabinet with working surface to put on top of a regular desk.. nice solution.. but.. one can also build his own "made to size" workbench..
I bought to steel cabinets (dentist cabinets) from a salvage shop, made 4 legs for each one to make them higher..










Put a thick plywood worksurface on top. and glued on some laminated floorpanels.. ( a piece of vinyl flooring would also do nicely )

the "cut-out" is because of the fact that i also make jewelry, and the cloth underneath is for collecting silver chips and.. preventing small parts from falling all the way to the floor..

I also use this workbench for scalemodeling.. and i like adding small details to my models.. so a workbench like this is perfect.. althoug i will be building a "dedicated" watchmakers workbench in the near future.. filing silver and plastic parts.. along working with watches don't really mix well.. 
Finishing watchcases and other parts can be done at the jewellers bench. but watch maintenance and repairs will be carried out on the new bench..


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## dacattoo

If one has an Ikea store nearby you will find Beech butcher block laminate countertops that make excellent and attractive bench tops. I used Craftsman tool chests and an Ikea top to make my bench. I don't care for the traditional benches with poorly fitting wooden drawers that won't hold everything I would like them to hold.


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## dacattoo

I see reviews on screwdrivers occasionally but rarely see references to the care and feeding of them. One doesn't purchase screwdrivers and use them forever and ever without some attention. An ill fitting or poorly maintained screwdriver can not only be frustrating to use but can damage a watch quite severely. The equipment to "tune" your screwdrivers is pretty simple. The kit consists of a large sharpening stone and a fixture to hold the screwdriver at the proper angle.

The spring loaded fixture runs on roller bearings and is available from Bergeon or as an indistinguishable generic on your favorite auction site. Sqeezing the two bearings causes a hole to open where you insert a screwdriver. Releasing the pressure on the bearings causes the screwdriver to be captured in the hole tightly. Adjusting the length the driver is inserted will determine the angle on the tip. Run the fixture on the bearing wheels back and forth on the stone and then flip over and do the other side. When you are pleased dress the end to the thickness you wish by holding the driver perpendicular to the stone. Voila! Most likely better than new. You can actually make your own tips from scratch quite easily if you have some blued stock in different diameters. Here are some pictures












































Also in the pictures are two sets of screwdrivers on my bench. The set on the left is Bergeon 6899-S and have a vinyl sleeve on the barrel of the driver. Sounds like a good idea until a couple of years down the road the sleeve slides around. I would not recommend these for that reason only. I actually prefer the second set, the Horotec drivers. They have ball bearing tops and are slightly heavier which I like. It is easy to spend several hundreds of dollars on screwdrivers. Don't ask me how I know that.


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## dacattoo

This contribution comes from the auto parts store. I discovered some very inexpensive floor mats for the back seat that provide bench mats I like. One side of the mat is smooth and the other side is corrugated. The smooth side works for me as a bench mat on which to work. Firm but easy on parts. Not hard like the traditional green mats that always seemed to bounce parts about. The other side is corrugated and works to hold round tools from rolling off the bench. Cut to suit yourself with a sharp knife. When dirty wash with soap and water or if stained wipe with acetone. Cheap enough I toss them and replace when necessary.


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## Arie Kabaalstra

Nice tip on the screwdriver grinding tool.. i've seen those.. great tool.. this kind of tool is "next" on my "tools to make" list.. i have a lathe and a mill so.. that's easy..

about the working mats.. a leftover piece vinyl flooring turned upside-down also works great als a working mat.. the corrugated surface of a car mat is indeed great for preventing round things rolling around..


----------



## Arie Kabaalstra

About Ikea as a "supplier".. i designed this workbench...










can be built for around €300,- with drawers and top from Ikea, and the frame from a different supplier..

the Frame is modular.. just order longer beams if you want a higher or wider bench.. 
You could also add a screensupport., so you can use a PC at the bench, for finding parts, or using a USB Microscope..


----------



## Shoefish8

I know this might not be the place to ask, but there seems to be a lack of posted knowledge regarding oils. I'm looking to do some overhauls of vintage to new movements, low to high beat, chrono / non-chrono, and I can't seem to figure out a combination of oils that won't break the bank.

I figured it would be easiest to derive my list from the oiling chart of an eta 2824-2. From what I've read the same techniques / oils can be applied to earlier movements.

This leads me to need the following:
Moebius HP-1300 *$**28*
Moebius 9010 *$27*
Moebius 9415 *$33 *(or would I need both 941 / 9415 if I'm working on low and high beat movements?)
Moebius 9501 *$76 *(?!) (10ml, smallest size from cousins, for one application point according to the oiling chart)

So I guess what I'm asking is, do I need these oils? Do I have any alternatives? Really if I could just skip the 9501 (grease) I would feel fine cost wise.

EDIT: I guess the oiling chart doesn't actually cover replacing the mainspring? Or is it supposed to be oiled externally with HP-1300 as it shows? I figure I otherwise need Moebius 8300 to replace mainsprings. What would you recommend for someone wanting to get into the game as a hobby?

EDIT2: I found this bergeon grease that is half the price of the Moebius 9501 - intended for what I presume is the same application? Would it be an ok replacement? https://www.cousinsuk.com/catalog/consumables/synthetic-greases/grease-synthetic-bergeon-syringe


----------



## emso

You should use molykote dx instead of 9501/9504 does not spread so fast and by my opinion is better.
Regarding the exchanging of the mainspring you will need one more for the automatics barrel wall, it is kluber p125

8300 you wont need as modern mainsprings are mostly teflon coated,besides if mainspring is good theoretically you would not need grease on the barrel cover and bottom.

Also you will be fine with the 9415 and you wont notice the difference when using it instead of 941 on low freq. movements

br
emso



p.s: sent from my s****y phone so sorry for typing mistakes


----------



## pithy

Shoefish8 said:


> . . . . there seems to be a lack of posted knowledge regarding oils. . . . .


You may wish to use the search function.


----------



## Shoefish8

emso said:


> You should use molykote dx instead of 9501/9504 does not spread so fast and by my opinion is better.
> Regarding the exchanging of the mainspring you will need one more for the automatics barrel wall, it is kluber p125
> 
> 8300 you wont need as modern mainsprings are mostly teflon coated,besides if mainspring is good theoretically you would not need grease on the barrel cover and bottom.
> 
> Also you will be fine with the 9415 and you wont notice the difference when using it instead of 941 on low freq. movements
> 
> br
> emso
> 
> p.s: sent from my s****y phone so sorry for typing mistakes


Thank you for your help, it was just what I needed, some personal reassurance of my hypothesis. How come I have never seen Kluber mentioned before? Is this a personal preference or something I've missed?



pithy said:


> You may wish to use the search function.


Thank you for linking that picture, but it is already safely stored on my HD from extensive previous searches. My question was one of practical realities and required experience I had not yet found elsewhere. The chart, although helpful, does not answer the question of if I will be covering my bases acquiring the set of oils referred to in my original post.


----------



## emso

Shoefish8 said:


> Thank you for your help, it was just what I needed, some personal reassurance of my hypothesis. How come I have never seen Kluber mentioned before? Is this a personal preference or something I've missed?
> .


it is something you have missed.

br
emso


----------



## pithy

Shoefish8 said:


> . . . . there seems to be a lack of posted knowledge regarding oils. . . . .


Not in my experience. Virtually each and every element of horological tribology has been discussed and debated extensively in this forum and buried and then exumed and examined again (sometimes repeatedly). This extends from the components of of the various lubrications, their formulations and comparisons with other basestocks and the servicibility of each. Whole discussions have been devoted to the science of tribology, documentation of physical properties and testing. Multiple discussions exist pertaining to the correct material and method application to virtually every movement component. So, again . . . not in my experience . . . .



Shoefish8 said:


> . . . . and I can't seem to figure out a combination of oils that won't break the bank. . . .


As your finances are unknown, it is impossible to make informed comment in this specific regard but, generally speaking, being cheap won't allow you to procure the tools and material to facilitate quality watch repair irrespective of your desire to pursue it as a hobby or a vocation.



Shoefish8 said:


> . . . My question was one of practical realities and required experience I had not yet found elsewhere. . . .


My answer to this is that you may wish to more closely examine the previous threads because this has been absolutely talked to death on this forum as the tombstones are too numerous for any observant individual to miss.


----------



## Shoefish8

Thanks for the well thought out reply. I have spent many nights researching oils, but I guess it boils down to not being able to appropriately curate and synthesize the available information without the experience and knowledge needed to asess the vast amount of great / not so great literature out there on the topic.


----------



## Da Maui Life

I've been looking for some brass tweezers and came across some Dumont, (trio) but I'm not sure how to value a used set. Or am I better off passing on used tweezers?


----------



## vbomega

These tweezers look good. You should learn how to dress the tips. To value these tweezers, look what they cost new and compare. Used brass tweezers generally don't exceed 30-50% of the new price.


----------



## prasitw

I just bought a set of titanium tweezers. It made in India but the quality is good for me, non magnetic 100% don't concern it, so the price is cheaper than brand name tweezers about 18$/1 set. 1 set have 3 titanium tweezers.


----------



## jcoffin1981

I like the lower grade "Hi-tech" dumont tweezers; they are stainless and antimagnetic and have just the right degree of stiffness for me. The metal is slightly softer than their other lines so it's easier to handle parts. Their fancy Dumostar tweezers at 50 bucks a piece feel like quality but are way too stiff for me. The carbon alloys are way to stiff, but I use them for installing cannon pinions and picking up tiny screws dropped in a movement (they always seem to become magnetized).

These may be okay, but I imagine there is a lot of variance from tool to tool. If you find little parts getting away from you it may be worth spending $19- $30 dollars for a better tweezer in a size you use. If taken care of they last a lifetime.


----------



## prasitw

I'd like to recommend the LED magnifiers because sometime your head will obscured the light from the light source in your work table. 







*concealed**concealed*


----------



## mousekar75

prasitw said:


> I'd like to recommend the LED magnifiers because sometime your head will obscured the light from the light source in your work table.
> View attachment 11412930
> 
> *concealed**concealed*


Where are you finding the LED magnifiers?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## prasitw

I bought them from ebay. There are many seller from china.Cheap price and Free shipping. Select the seller who have good feedback.


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## pithy

prasitw said:


> I'd like to recommend the LED magnifiers because sometime your head will obscured the light from the light source in your work table.


How are they for hairspring pinning and impulse jewel setting?


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## prasitw

On the right box of magnifier glasses. Lens can change 10X, 15X, 20X, and 25X. All of lens include this magnifier set. I think this magnifiers are much more useful enough for watchmaking. So cheap price and conveniently, easy to switch magnify of lens.


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## prasitw

These are my tweezers set RTB brand and them made in swiss, high quality steel, non magnetic and anti-acid. This brand come from watchmaking tool shop which order swiss factory to made them with high precision and quality. The price per each about 16-18$. The picture show the end of tweezers. The watchmaking tool shop was Bergeon, Horotec, and AF distributor in my country.


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## AussieGuy

I've had a look through this thread: all I want is basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches. I understand the cheap Chinese tools on eBay are to be avoided, but then I don't want to spend a fortune on the very best professional tools - I would be, after all, just an occasional hobbyist. Surely there's a middle ground - of reasonable tools which are neither dirt cheap nor hideously expensive. I know that Esslinger do a couple of kits, but whether they are any better than the eBay Chinese ones I don't know. Advice...?


----------



## prasitw

AussieGuy said:


> I've had a look through this thread: all I want is basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches. I understand the cheap Chinese tools on eBay are to be avoided, but then I don't want to spend a fortune on the very best professional tools - I would be, after all, just an occasional hobbyist. Surely there's a middle ground - of reasonable tools which are neither dirt cheap nor hideously expensive. I know that Esslinger do a couple of kits, but whether they are any better than the eBay Chinese ones I don't know. Advice...?


In my opinion the basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches, The cheap china tools can use for you because it is not necessary to use high quality tools for managing bracelets or battery changes. The high pricision and quality tools such as screwdriver and tweezers should be used for the movement avoid the chinese or india tools. 







These are tools for open and press back cover case. I used AF screwdriver and AF knife for open back cover so, I used chinese tool for close the back cover. I think plastic block are better than aluminium block because it soft than the watch case then it cannot make scars on your watch when you press the back cover. Plastic tweezer for remove and replace battery from china.







These are tools for remove thread back case. The wood block holder and case opener are made in china.







These are tools for managing bracelets or change strap. The spring bar remover can use bergeon or china, up to your money. The other tools are made in china.


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## AussieGuy

prasitw said:


> In my opinion the basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches, The cheap china tools can use for you because it is not necessary to use high quality tools for managing bracelets or battery changes. The high pricision and quality tools such as screwdriver and tweezers should be used for the movement avoid the chinese or india tools.
> View attachment 11644362
> 
> These are tools for open and press back cover case. I used AF screwdriver and AF knife for open back cover so, I used chinese tool for close the back cover. I think plastic block are better than aluminium block because it soft than the watch case then it cannot make scars on your watch when you press the back cover. Plastic tweezer for remove and replace battery from china.
> View attachment 11644410
> 
> These are tools for remove thread back case. The wood block holder and case opener are made in china.
> View attachment 11644426
> 
> These are tools for managing bracelets or change strap. The spring bar remover can use bergeon or china, up to your money. The other tools are made in china.


Thank you for your excellent advice!

-A.

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## Molliedooker

AussieGuy said:


> I've had a look through this thread: all I want is basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches. I understand the cheap Chinese tools on eBay are to be avoided, but then I don't want to spend a fortune on the very best professional tools - I would be, after all, just an occasional hobbyist. Surely there's a middle ground - of reasonable tools which are neither dirt cheap nor hideously expensive. I know that Esslinger do a couple of kits, but whether they are any better than the eBay Chinese ones I don't know. Advice...?


Mate, go to the Lebanda site, look up tools or what ever else you are looking for.

They are based in Brisbane and have three watchmakers on site.

They supply good affordable items as well top of the line. I have bought all my gear from them . Usually I ask for eg. "Good cheap whatever" and I have never had an issue.
Labanda - Watch Spare Parts


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## AaronMckay

AussieGuy said:


> I've had a look through this thread: all I want is basic and usable tools for managing bracelets and battery changes in quartz watches. I understand the cheap Chinese tools on eBay are to be avoided, but then I don't want to spend a fortune on the very best professional tools - I would be, after all, just an occasional hobbyist. Surely there's a middle ground - of reasonable tools which are neither dirt cheap nor hideously expensive. I know that Esslinger do a couple of kits, but whether they are any better than the eBay Chinese ones I don't know. Advice...?


I completely disagree with the other poster about it being okay to use cheap tools for strap changes. If you get Chinese screwdrivers and Chinese pin pushers, the tips will break or even fall out. Then they will be useless or hard to use. The screwdrivers won't fit the screws nicely and you'll damage the screw head or your bracelet.

If you get a cheap case holder it will have rough edges which will scratch.

The cheap spring bar tool will break as well.

I've had the Chinese tools. I suggest you only buy the swiss ones.

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## dman2112

AaronMckay said:


> I completely disagree with the other poster about it being okay to use cheap tools for strap changes. If you get Chinese screwdrivers and Chinese pin pushers, the tips will break or even fall out. Then they will be useless or hard to use. The screwdrivers won't fit the screws nicely and you'll damage the screw head or your bracelet.
> 
> If you get a cheap case holder it will have rough edges which will scratch.
> 
> The cheap spring bar tool will break as well.
> 
> I've had the Chinese tools. I suggest you only buy the swiss ones.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


They will learn the hard way

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## AussieGuy

Molliedooker said:


> Mate, go to the Lebanda site, look up tools or what ever else you are looking for.
> 
> They are based in Brisbane and have three watchmakers on site.
> 
> They supply good affordable items as well top of the line. I have bought all my gear from them . Usually I ask for eg. "Good cheap whatever" and I have never had an issue.
> Labanda - Watch Spare Parts


Thank you! I've looked at their catalogue, and they offer a small watch repair kit in a nice box. Is this good quality, or is it a repackaged Chinese kit?

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## Molliedooker

AussieGuy said:


> Thank you! I've looked at their catalogue, and they offer a small watch repair kit in a nice box. Is this good quality, or is it a repackaged Chinese kit?
> 
> Sent from my m8 using Tapatalk


Sorry mate I don't know. They have a Melbourne number give them a ring and ask.
I buy individual items . You want "good" cheap. 
I bought originally from them. 
Basic screwdriver kit plus extra blades for the smallest (yellow). Number 5 Venus tweezers, oiler (fine), two aluminium movement holders , Hand blower, , basic number 5 loupe (originally I taped to a pair of old glasses and it did the job.)
Total cost was somewhere around $70/100 aud . That's about $50/100.USD
For extra light I used a cheap LED head band . 
To clean I used Naptha (Shellite) from Bunnings and did manually using fine artist brushes from a hobby shop as well as some kids plasticine . 
The only items I lashed out on initially was the moebius lubricants and polywatch.

From my original Chinese eBay kit I kept case openers,hammer, band and spring bar removers and binned the rest. For screw back cases I use a rubber ball with masking tape wound around with sticky side on outside. If I could not open or close the watch back (rare snap on )I would wander down to a mister minute in the mall and ask nicely. 
Initially to change crystal I would take to Lebanda and ask ( usually $20 including glass)


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## prasitw

Do not overlook another swiss brand. AF Brand is good quality and cheaper than the other swiss brand watch tools. AF brand made in France and Swiss. I recommend open case knife and small set of screwdriver.


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## Holy Moley

Nice, I just started and have the same setup. My problem is the lighting. Incandescent light cast lots of shadows so looking at two light sources in combination. Incandescent and florescent. I viewed lots of You Tube video's (Mark Lovick seems the best) but lighting is not covered much.


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## jcoffin1981

HP-1300 good stuff
9010-good stuff
you will need 9020 most likely as well
I like 9020 for lubricating a mainspring (not new) after inserting it. There is sort of a capillary action which sucks it up. Some will prefer a thicker grease instead.
As for the barrell wall I would follow manufacturer's recommendations. I will not even mention what I often use here.

I have also used PML stem grease to lubricate the 4 flat surfaces on the stem as well as the pilot. It is really silky smooth.


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## Holy Moley

I understand the manufacturer recommended lubricants for watches but there has to be generic oils that work just as well.
I just use moebus HP 1300 for the jewels, Novostar barrel grease for the main spring and Newall 30-341 for stem and winding gears. I think the HP 1300 might be a replacement for Moebus D5 but not sure. I don't use any lube on the pallet fork pivots or on the escapement wheel teeth but I see many watch repair folks recommended it. I think Mark Lovick used D5 but I'm not sure.
Any recommended lubes for different areas would sure be appreciated. I did find a good schematic for Seiko recommended lubricants but I have to compare their brands to the viscosity charts for comparison non brand Seiko lubricants.


----------



## jcoffin1981

Holy Moley said:


> I understand the manufacturer recommended lubricants for watches but there has to be generic oils that work just as well.
> I just use moebus HP 1300 for the jewels, Novostar barrel grease for the main spring and Newall 30-341 for stem and winding gears. I think the HP 1300 might be a replacement for Moebus D5 but not sure.


There are some viscosity charts floating around on the forums, posted by Pithy I think. I use HP-1300 in place of D-5 and have retired my bottle. 1300 is synthetic and better all around.
The Novostar oils are fine, I just don't know their applications, but there is a ton of info out there and on here.


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## Stash

Scabby12 said:


> Yeah, I will see what arrives in the toolkit Ive bought. I'm going to concentrate on old autos. I've bought several nice old well running Seiko 5, 17 & 21 jewelers lately and want to learn how to get a non-working one, well, working, as I've also bought a couple of these in nice cosmetic condition but non running. I know this isn't going to be easy but I'll buy a job lot of old ones and practice stripping and rebuilding them first before attempting anything on a good watch. I hope I'll learn the basics of watch construction/operation from this and also how my tools will perform. If I need to buy (lots??) more then so be it. Just going to be a hobby and I'm prepared to spend as much time as necessary gaining confidence before attacking anything for real.... Thanks for all the advice though, much appreciated


How are you getting on with this ? it's pretty much exactly what I'm planning to do, any advice, tips on tools, books etc ? ta.


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## jcoffin1981

AaronMckay said:


> I completely disagree with the other poster about it being okay to use cheap tools for strap changes. If you get Chinese screwdrivers and Chinese pin pushers, the tips will break or even fall out. Then they will be useless or hard to use. The screwdrivers won't fit the screws nicely and you'll damage the screw head or your bracelet.
> 
> If you get a cheap case holder it will have rough edges which will scratch.
> 
> The cheap spring bar tool will break as well.
> 
> I've had the Chinese tools. I suggest you only buy the swiss ones.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


I completely agree. A Bergeon pinpusher will not set you back much, as will a set of A*F screwdrivers (set of five). After trying these you will never go back to the lesser Chinese versions.


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## Slm643

Hello people, why aren't the tips of caseback openers made of hard rubber so as to not scratch the caseback? 

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## aguila9

Slm643 said:


> Hello people, why aren't the tips of caseback openers made of hard rubber so as to not scratch the caseback?
> 
> Sent from my Lenovo TAB 2 A10-70F using Tapatalk


If rubber were that strong all tools would be made of it.

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## Slm643

aguila9 said:


> If rubber were that strong all tools would be made of it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


Well I do have these and there may be even harder available, given the size and design of casebacks, I see no reason not to, maybe we should build a prototype..

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## Btreichel87

Can anyone help me pick a set of screw drivers? I'm a hobbyist, doesn't need to be the best but i'd like pretty good quality so i won't feel like i need to replace they right away. 
I'm looking at a couple different sets. 
This AF 6 pc set for $74
https://www.esslinger.com/af-6-pc-p...crewdriver-straight-blade-set-in-wooden-case/
Or this french 9 pc set for $56
French Made Screwdrivers For Watchmakers
also what's the difference between the set for 56 and the set right after it for $94? are you really paying $40 just for the wooden box?

I've heard good things about AF, but can anyone confirm that the French 9Pc set is actually AF as well? There's not a lot of detail on the description of this set.

Any other suggestions would be welcome. I've looked for the set laid out my the original poster in this thread, but could not find them online.


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## Zoogleboogle

https://www.esslinger.com/build-your-own-watch-tool-kit/

I picked this up on a whim as I wanted to take apart some old cheap vintage watches I had, but now im realizing I may get really into this and wanted to see...

What in this kit is good and what should I upgrade? I figure it gives me a decent starting point.

Thanks


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## jdrichard01

These are the tools you need.








Plus a watchmakers Lathe and all the associated lathe tools









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## Slm643

Without going through 114 postings, and just based on the last couple of posts apparently the beginning hobbiest needs to spend a couple thousand dollars for "first tool kit" so much for encouraging people to get into the hobby.

I to just saw the " make your own watch kit" and wondered it it was a decent first set, yes we know that we won't be working on 10,000 dollar watches but maybe something with a nh35. Sorry if this offends people, but this hobby should be fun too! 

OK I went to the OP and read that, along with some others, and I get the impression that some people here, like me that just purchased a new watch, I actually got 2 that just so happened to have nh35 's in them and I also have another 2 with 4r36' s in them, and a couple Vostok with 2416 movements, I could be wrong in my assessment, that to get these watches serviced would not be cost effective, please correct me if I am wrong, the Seiko's especially! The Vostok I think I could do with out too much trouble, I could be wrong there too! So that is why the question about the "make your own watch kit" from Esslinger. 

So any thoughts would be welcome and greatly appreciated thanks in advance! Steve. 
Sent from my K92 using Tapatalk


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## mihai_a380

Indeed there are lots of tools... I am not a professional but occasionally, on less valuable pieces, I attempted to clean/ repair them myself and I can say that there are essential tools and more specialized ones. Sometimes I managed to get them working and sometimes not. For starting a set of screwdrivers, a loupe and something to clean the various pieces are necessary. In the next stage, more specialized tools are necessary if one wants to do a "proper" job.


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## mccarthyinvest

Thank you everyone that contributed all of the great info. If I get serious about repair and cleaning I know where to look again.


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## zewill

Thanks for such a great thread!
Read through most of it and still unsure what screwdriver to get?

179$: Bergeon 30080-A10 Chromium Plated Watchmakers Screwdriver Set with Case (10 drivers for 179 on esslinger, including the 0.50mm)
https://www.esslinger.com/bergeon-30080-a10-chromium-plated-watchmakers-screwdriver-set-with-case/

179$ Horotec Watchmakers Mini Screwdriver Set 9 sizes Starts at 0.60mm
https://www.esslinger.com/horotec-watchmakers-mini-screwdriver-set-9-sizes/

The only tools I've had are the bergeon spring bar tool. I enjoy bergeon but know you pay a heavy premium for the name. I want quality but also look for best bang for the buck!
I'm surprised, having heard a lot from Horotec, that the 9 driver set (1 less than bergeon) is priced equally, also missing the 0.50mm driver...
Those tools seem to get more expensive as time goes by.. I guess like their big brother items, watches 

What do you guys recommend?
Is there a set i've overlooked?
thanks!


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## ExpiredWatchdog

I have something close to the Bergeon set above, mine is the 5970 set. It doesn't have the 3.00mm screwdriver, otherwise the same. It also comes with a rotary stand, which I very much like, and it was about $125 several years ago. 

I've heard opinions regarding the Horotec set, most owners find them superior to any of the Bergeon sets due to the ball bearinged head which they find more smooth in operation. That would be my next set if I ever need them.


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## NYCone

I'm new to watchmaking, and I found this thread after I'd already bought some tools. I am very, very value oriented, so I thought I might share some interesting observations:

Screwdrivers - I bought some Chinese knockoffs of the Bergeon 30081s. A set or 5 off eBay for $5. They were OK, not great. I wouldn't recommend them. Then I bought a set of 28 (four sets of 7) knock offs of the Horotecs. These were knock offs in looks, they did not have the ball bearings at the top like the real deal. These sets took a little work - I cleaned them ultrasonically, and dressed the blades. These sets were an amazing buy! Seven different sizes 0.8 to 2mm, four complete sets for $12 total. After they were cleaned and dressed they worked extremely well. I bought one real Horotec to compare, and the real Horotec is amazingly smooth and well finished, but the knock offs were good enough that I didn't buy any further screwdrivers, they hit the mark for $0.42 each (they even came with a spare blade for each driver)! I very much recommend these *if* you are on a budget. I also bought a blade holder for holding the driver at a constant angle while sharpening from eBay for $3 it works well.

Next tweezers - I bought the #3 and #5 anti magnetic for $3 each, and a brass #3 for $5 from Esslinger. The steel tweezers were very good when they arrived. The brass were a little klunky. I dressed them all following the advice on this video (search for "Abell Watchmakers tips on sharpening tweezers") and all the tweezers were great. I'd planned on buying one set of Dumonts to compare, but after dressing them, I didn't see the reason to buy anything else.

I bought an heated ultrasonic cleaner off eBay (3L for $64). It is awesome. I used the brass screen parts holders made in India from eBay for ~$7 each. I've been using VM&P naptha for cleaning and 99% IPA for the rinse. It's all going well.

I bought AF oilers from Esslinger. I wanted to try eBay oilers, but they never came...I bought a 4 cup oil holder Bergeon knock off for $19 on eBay, it comes in a day or two, I have high hopes. I bought Moebius 9010, 9415, 9501, 9104, D5, 8200, and 9501 in small quantities from a retailer in France. The cost per ml is about the same as USA, but you can get much smaller amounts, which saves me money because I don't do enough watches to make the larger sizes make sense.

I bought a set of four loupes on eBay for ~$8 - 2.5x, 5x, 7.5x and 10x. They're good. I cut a "V" out of each of the black plastic part with a hacksaw to allow me to see out of the bottom. I got a Bergeon headspring loupe holder for $6 and all is well. 

I use metal Bergeon knock off movement holders from eBay - about $2 each, they work well. As does my $5 eBay demagnetizer.

Finally, I got a K&D mainspring winder 123A off eBay for ~$20. It's awesome.

All in all, I love fine tools, but I have a hard time spending the extra cash if I can find a practical cheap version. I couldn't justify paying 42 times more for a Horotec screwdriver when the eBay knock off was pretty good. The Horotec is outstanding, but I couldn't see the extra $. The K&D winder is great, I can absolutely recommend it, and it's a name brand (though not made currently). My knock off screwdrivers, tweezers, loupes, movement holders, oil cups are completely usable.

I hope this helps.


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## 04z

Started reading thru this a few weeks ago and have since read another time. Thank you to the OP and others who have shared. Great post with a wealth of information. Some day I hope to get more into tinkering with the inner workings.


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## Roningrad

Likewise a newbie here. Thank u OP and the various contributors to this thread. This is an excellent tip for us aspiring hobbyists who dreams to top-up to the next level.


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## Tomtomgo

I'm new to this starting with a invicta dive watch making it into a big crown milsub mostly because parts are easy to replace but enjoying it so far and learning as I go along

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## schnurrp

My suggestion:


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## schnurrp

Also useful is a digital camera to record location of parts during disassembly.


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## jdrichard01

iPhone 


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## duculetu

Hello community!

I recently bought an Bergeon 6767-SF tool and I am very pleased with it but for bracelets - it is very hard to use. Could you please:
- recommend a plier style spring bar tool?
- recommend a shop where to buy it that ships to EU?

I saw the Bergeon plier one is very expensive (over $250 on some sites) and I have cheaper watches than this so it is well above my budget. I am looking for something around $80 if you could recommend. Also, before coming to you I found out this:
Horofix Watch Bracelet Springbar Pliers Band Tool at 90$
Horotec Watch Bracelet Springbar Pliers Band Tool at $120
Bergeon 6825 Watch Bracelet Pliers watch BandTool at $190 
The dilemma is, if I was willing to do an extra effort and jump from planned $80 to the above $120, wouldn't be best to save a bit and go for the Bergeon $190? Another dilemma is why on other sited the Bergeon is $250+ and here $190? Would it be worth to buy a $200 tool for $300 watches?
Can I find something cheaper but good? I tend to use the tool 4 times per year ...

LE: found this that helped me a bit but after stumbled upon this.


----------



## jdrichard01

duculetu said:


> Hello community!
> 
> I recently bought an Bergeon 6767-SF tool and I am very pleased with it but for bracelets - it is very hard to use. Could you please:
> - recommend a plier style spring bar tool?
> - recommend a shop where to buy it that ships to EU?
> 
> I saw the Bergeon plier one is very expensive (over $250 on some sites) and I have cheaper watches than this so it is well above my budget. I am looking for something around $80 if you could recommend. Also, before coming to you I found out this:
> Horofix Watch Bracelet Springbar Pliers Band Tool at 90$
> Horotec Watch Bracelet Springbar Pliers Band Tool at $120
> Bergeon 6825 Watch Bracelet Pliers watch BandTool at $190
> The dilemma is, if I was willing to do an extra effort and jump from planned $80 to the above $120, wouldn't be best to save a bit and go for the Bergeon $190? Another dilemma is why on other sited the Bergeon is $250+ and here $190? Would it be worth to buy a $200 tool for $300 watches?
> Can I find something cheaper but good? I tend to use the tool 4 times per year ...
> 
> LE: found this that helped me a bit but after stumbled upon this.


Go to daveswatchparts and shop.

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## duculetu

Guys, I am still looking to buy the Horofix but on esslinger I get $60 bucks delivery to EU (and will pay another 19% VAT when it arrives). Does anyone know a good shop that delivers International with decent prices?


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## Xilikon

Great read with lots of informations. I started buying tools and ordered a bunch at AliExpress (mostly stuff which is less important like case cushion, movement holder, etc). To have all what i need, all I need is Dumont tweezers (i think I will get a pair of #2 and a pair of 5# to cover most needs as a hobbyist. I also ordered a cheap AA brass tweezer). 

The last thing that I struggle so much is about screwdrivers. No matter how much I read, I don't know what set would be good. My goal is to get a good 4-5 screwdrivers set for 80-100$ and I'm looking at Horotec. There is a wide range for all prices and I wonder which serie is the best bang for the buck in terms of usability vs quality ? Anything to suggest in that price range ?


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## dpn

I've been quite happy to date with this $60 Bergeon 5-piece screwdriver set. (I work on common Seiko movements and ETA 6497s/98s. Other than one proprietary Seiko screw on a 7S26, I haven't needed any screwdriver sizes that weren't included in the Bergeon 5-piece set.) The screwdriver blades were great at purchase, but make sure that you budget a good sharpening stone and a screwdriver sharpening tool into your purchase.


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## [email protected]

As a newbie I've started out with a 9 piece generic 'Made in France' set for around $55 which has been ok so far. The Bergeons would be nicer to use and better quality but the tips in mine can be swapped for Bergeon tips when needed.

I'd also echo the suggestion for getting a sharpening stone and a tool for screwdriver tips.


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## Manning1978

Hi everyone im new here and just getting started in watch relair. I've done a lot of battery changes and cleanings for family. I have started to play around with mechanicals. A friend gave me an old seiko 5 7009 model to clean and play with. My question is is there a place to get an assortment of gaskets and o-rings or do I buy them as I go for each watch. I'm not looking to make a living or anything just really enjoying the hobby. Any help will b greatly appreciated.


----------



## Sterling.GmbH

Man! Thank you for putting this list together. I've been slowly collecting tools, but random stuff here and there... but this is a nice roadmap!


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## [email protected]

Manning1978 said:


> Hi everyone im new here and just getting started in watch relair. I've done a lot of battery changes and cleanings for family. I have started to play around with mechanicals. A friend gave me an old seiko 5 7009 model to clean and play with. My question is is there a place to get an assortment of gaskets and o-rings or do I buy them as I go for each watch. I'm not looking to make a living or anything just really enjoying the hobby. Any help will b greatly appreciated.


I've been buying them as I go but the postage soon adds up (although it's been a good excuse to add other new tools to the order...)

There are 'assortment' bags available containing random sizes, as well as box sets with all the sizes. I've been tempted to get a box set as it's hard to know how useful an assortment would be, but then will I ever get through all of them?

In your (my) situation starting out I'd be inclined to continue buying individually, unless someone else can recommend an assortment bag containing commonly used gasket sizes. Sorry this probably isn't very helpful...


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## mrz80

After weeks of reading (starting with this VERY helpful thread, among others) and days of staring at websites and comparing prices, I've started piecing together sufficient tools to, hopefully, handle at least the sob-stories in my watch drawer.  I've also got a case press tucked away in a drawer, and some other odds and sods (including some sweet old Levin mainspring winders) heading this way, but here's enough to be starting with...









I'm finding that a good couple sets of tweezers is at *least* as important as good screwdrivers. And I really love that case back wrench. It was only $12 off eBay, and it works really well. The one major gaffe was in the caseback knife. I didn't discover until after I'd bought this one (it didn't even _*occur*_ at the time  ) that I could've gotten a *left-handed* caseback knife. I'll be putting in another order somewhere shortly!


----------



## jdrichard01

mrz80 said:


> After weeks of reading (starting with this VERY helpful thread, among others) and days of staring at websites and comparing prices, I've started piecing together sufficient tools to, hopefully, handle at least the sob-stories in my watch drawer.  I've also got a case press tucked away in a drawer, and some other odds and sods (including some sweet old Levin mainspring winders) heading this way, but here's enough to be starting with...
> View attachment 15505326
> 
> 
> I'm finding that a good couple sets of tweezers is at *least* as important as good screwdrivers. And I really love that case back wrench. It was only $12 off eBay, and it works really well. The one major gaffe was in the caseback knife. I didn't discover until after I'd bought this one (it didn't even _*occur*_ at the time  ) that I could've gotten a *left-handed* caseback knife. I'll be putting in another order somewhere shortly!


I wind mainsprings by hand. Works much better for pocket watches.

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## drlagares

such a helpful thread and made me think to have a venture for this


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## dacattoo

I offer three unorthodox tools to the mix. Numero uno is right behind the driver's seat in your car. These floor mats work just fine for watch work. Some have corrugations on one side and smooth on the other. Cut up the corrugations and make tool holding mats. Numero dos. Hockey pucks. Used ones work fine. Check your local thrift shop and get a couple for a buck. The pucks are nice and firm but soft at the same time. Carve it with slots or holes or whatever. Numero tres, Ikea and a big box store. Ikea sells beech butcher block. Figure out your bench size and set it on top of a couple of tool box drawer banks. Here's mine I used for 20 years.


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## dacattoo

jdrichard01 said:


> I wind mainsprings by hand. Works much better for pocket watches.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Actually winding by hand is not good for mainsprings. Bends them, perhaps imperceptible to you but the people that know say no no.


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## jdrichard01

dacattoo said:


> Actually winding by hand is not good for mainsprings. Bends them, perhaps imperceptible to you but the people that know say no no.


Funny, I watched a video of an old American watchmaking factory and the workers were winding the mainsprings by hand and with no finger cots.!

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## DonJ53

Buy the best YOU can afford and put the expensive ones on your Secret Santa list.

I did this year and got these.


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## PCCM

I have subscribed and this was a great thread, i wish I had seen it sooner.

I’ve compiled so many “junk” tools thinking I’d need them only once, and ended up paying close to what a quality set would have been over the decades. Granted I was in school when it all first started, but had I seen this thread I might have put some projects on hold waiting for the right tools.


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## DonJ53

Using the brass Dumont tweezers (above) is just a joy. I wish I had these 50 movements ago. They hold the smallest of screws and end cap jewels.


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## bkeating

Thank you all for this thread. So helpful for us beginners!


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## Wolfgang Holtzmann

I started with one of those repair "kits" for less than 200$ and i've replaced just about everything with better tool. But you have to be commuted to spend 900$. The tools you use the most should be the best, from there is really give it take - i think that's mostly consensus. The only tools i hate, are expensive and there are few options for are mainspring winders.


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## ExpiredWatchdog

^^^Yup!


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