# vintage Zenith El Primero questions



## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Hello all.

I've been browsing the forum a bit and have a few questions regarding a couple of vintage Zenith El Primero models (see the first two attached pictures).

1. The first has a stainless case and an all white dial : I saw a picture of the same watch on this forum, but with a blue and white dial (last picture). That blue one was called ref. A788, produced in 1400 pieces, in 1971 (if I recall well). 
Questions : _what is the reference for the same model with the white dial and how many were produced ?_ 
1.2 Additional question : the same case was used for a gold watch with a gold dial (ref. G7810, 250 watches made in 1971)(if my information is correct). There also seems to be a gold watch in this shape with _white _dial : what is the reference for that and how many were produced ?

2. The second in the pictures has a stainless steel case and a white three colour dial with overlapping registers. The stainless steel case looks to be the same as for ref A384, A385 and ref A3818. The dial looks a lot like ref A386, but the triangular minute markers are different, they look like those of A3818 (third picture). Some people think this watch is a variation of ref. A384, others mention ref. A3817.
Questions : _what is the correct reference for this model, how many were produced, in what year ?_

Please correct and enlighten me !

Thank you !


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

1. A 787 - 1500 items produced according to Rossler. One of the less-loved early Primeros, but I've come to like it. It is the most elemental of all the early Primero models, IMO.

1.2 Not clear if _that_ watch (I know which one you mean) is authentic or not. Could be a case from the gold face one, with the dial from the A 787. The fact that the indices and hands are gold-tone argues against that. However there is no picture of such a watch in the standard Zenith reference. Rossler does refer to some models which are not pictured, and the one you are describing fits his description of a G 787. I believe it to be this watch. It would be more confidence-inspiring if the seller could post more than 1 pic.

2. Correct designation is the A 3817. "Some people" are mistaken:-d. It is an entirely separate model from the A 384 and the A 386, and well documented as such. 1000 produced, like its sister the A 3818, according to Rossler. The confusion many come from the fact that certain franken-watch meisters have used the dial from the 2009 New Vintage 1969, which closely resembles the A 386, in an A 3817 body to make a _faux _A 3817. See previous relevant threads on this very forum:
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=381125&highlight=Franken-primero
https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=381524&highlight=Franken-primero

Last two images in yer post look familiar....:think:;-)


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

Quick addition to point 2.1: the gold watch with silver dial is very likely Ref. G787 - identical to A 787 except the case material (as the G for gold probably suggests). No picture in the Rössler book but it's in the table (on Pages 240-241 in the German version).

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

thank you for the fast and excellent replies !

1.2 Any idea about the production number for G787?

1.3 I think I've seen the A787 only without tachymeter (not sure here). 
The A788 I've seen with and without tachymeter. 
Is there an explanation for that ? 
Was the tachymeter optional ?


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

sempervivens said:


> thank you for the fast and excellent replies !
> 
> 1.2 Any idea about the production number for G787?
> 
> ...


1.2 450

1.3 The A 787 never had a tachymetre bezel whereas the A 788 did. If you look carefully at the picture in your first post, you'll see that it is a split tachymetre/pulsometre - nice touch, since I am rarely in a position to time anything traveling much above 200mph . The ones you see without one have simply lost it along the way, either because they were improperly reassembled or because they are frankens.

If you are eager for an A 787-type with a bezel, there is a comically bad one on italian fleaBay. Its creator -- who appears to be a cross-eyed glue-sniffing 12 year old -- should be soundly spanked. Be warned, though, it will make your eyes bleed: 
http://cgi.ebay.it/Zenith-Chronogra...gi_da_Polso&hash=item19bd4b465c#ht_1398wt_911


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Thank you for the replies.

I'll share some of my conclusions regarding the vintage Zenith El Primero's (please correct me if I'm wrong) :

*STAINLESS STEEL :* 

there were +- 14 different models in 7 different case styles.

*Four (4) case styles date to* *1969-1972* and account for 11 different models (mainly dial variations and one model with moonphase).

*Three (3) case styles date to 1972-75* and account for 3 different models.

Although there seem to be many small variations in the diver/aviator : I count these as only one model. 
There are also supposed to be 50 'black dials' of the well-known 'TV' case, which I didn't count as a separate "model", because of the limited number.

Total : 32.250 made in ca. 9 years (1969-1978).

Note : I may have counted 900 too many : according to one source the diver/aviator El Primero was made in 4100 pieces, another source adds up to 3200.

*GOLDPLATED*

There exists only one model, dating to 1973-75, total made : 2000 
(same case style as one steel model)

Note : you can divide it into two models, as it seems Zenith did : one model for the Europe market, one for the US, but they look the same.

*GOLD *

It seems the gold Zenith El Primero's were only made in 1969-1972. I counted 11 different models in 6 different case styles (with variations in dials, one with moonphase). One model in white gold is supposed to have been made in only ten pieces. 
If you leave that out, there were only 10 different models in 5 different case styles (and three of those case styles seem to be the the same as stainless steel models).

Total production : 3222.

TOTAL PRODUCTION OF STEEL, GOLDPLATED AND GOLD VINTAGE ZENITH EL PRIMERO'S : 32.250 + 2000 + 3220 = 37.470.

Note : these are the official numbers of complete Zenith El Primero watches produced in 1969-1978. Then there were surely extra cal 3019 PHC movements made. Many were sold to Movado, and later to other companies as well.

A collector's dream : to have all 25 different models ...


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

"Sold to Movado" is not really accurate, since Movado and Zenith were effectively the same company for most of the early life of El Primero. Movado-Zenith-Mondia was a single holding company managed by Zenith as the majority shareholders, beginning in September 1969. This was bought by American Zenith in June 1972, and then Dixi in JUne 1978, resulting in the creation of "Zenith Movado Le Locle SA." This operated until Gedalio Grinberg bought Movado in 1983.

The identity of the two companies was so close that one frequently finds Zenith models cross-branded as Movados. I believe this was done for the american marked to avoid copyright friction with American Zenith, the electronics company. This is particularly true of the A788, the "TV" Zenith (01.0200.415) and the "pilot" (A 3822 or 01.0180.415). There are Movado dials, Zenith dials, AND dials which feature both Zenith and Movado, and movements may be labeled differently from the dials.

Meanwhile, Movado produced its own Primero product line, known as the Datron HS 360, which I find rather pretty, if more austere and less colorful. When you are done collecting the 25 Zeniths, you can get to work on these. Here are a couple of examples:


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

> "Sold to Movado" is not really accurate, since Movado and Zenith were effectively the same company for most of the early life of El Primero. Movado-Zenith-Mondia was a single holding company managed by Zenith ...


It is a matter of semantics perhaps... but still : I think even within one holding company, you can speak of "sales"...Movado selling some of their movements to their sister company Zenith, and vice versa. Somehow in the books it must have been accounted for. Of course it is a little different from sales to other companies outside the holding, so I understand what you mean.

But I don't think you should say they


> were effectively the same company.


They were part of a single holding company : ok.



> Meanwhile, Movado produced its own Primero product line, known as the Datron HS 360, which I find rather pretty, if more austere and less colorful. When you are done collecting the 25 Zeniths, you can get to work on these. Here are a couple of examples:


Thanks for the nice pic. Are you the lucky owner of these pretty beasts ?

The case for those looks a lot like the Zenith 01.0210.415 - 20.0210.415. 
The dial design is very nice.

I was of course aware of the Movado Datrons. So apparently in the beginning (1969-72) Movado had their own models. (Which BTW confirms that the sister companies were still quite independent from each other). 
But (as you pointed out very rightly), at the time of the TV case and Pilot (1972 or 1973-1975), they simply had the same models (only with a different signature). 
By that time Zenith was also producing significantly less different models, with higher production runs... obviously all this was for reasons of cost efficiency.

Do you know what the name "Datron" stands for ?

How many different Movado Datron models were there?

I don't actually plan to collect the 25 Zenith's...

However the 7 different stainless steel case styles migh be nice ... :roll:

Considering the small production numbers, Zenith actually created a fantastic variety of early El Primero's...

that's what I mean with 'a collector's dream'.


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

sempervivens said:


> that's what I mean with 'a collector's dream'.


Absolutely no argument!


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

sempervivens said:


> It is a matter of semantics perhaps... but still : I think even within one holding company, you can speak of "sales"...Movado selling some of their movements to their sister company Zenith, and vice versa. Somehow in the books it must have been accounted for. Of course it is a little different from sales to other companies outside the holding, so I understand what you mean.


I would concur with that - nowadays, Zenith is still Zenith and not LVMH. LVMH is just the holding company. Hence, Zenith and TAG Heuer are separate companies (and Hublot too - fortunately! Just my own opinion, that last bit).



sempervivens said:


> Do you know what the name "Datron" stands for ?


Don't know either but I do know that the Zenith "Espada" (vintage model with Cal. 3019 PHF) was known at Movado as the "Astronic". Maybe it's a corruption of that name with "Dat" coming form the date (prior to the El Primero, very few chronographs had date functions so it was something to highlight).

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks guys.



> I would concur with that - nowadays, Zenith is still Zenith and not LVMH. LVMH is just the holding company. Hence, Zenith and TAG Heuer are separate companies


Come to think of it ... the design of the new Zenith El Primero 1/10 second _with the date at 6 o'clock_ does resemble the Heuer design quite a bit (both in cal. 11 and Vj 7734 they had the date at 6).



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *sempervivens*
> _Do you know what the name "Datron" stands for ?_
> 
> ...


Maybe "Datron" is based on the word "Astron" ? 1969 was after all the time of the American astronauts traveling to the moon for the first time.
Then, as you suggest, "Astron" may have been changed in "Datron" to highlight the new date function.


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## Mars Mountain (Feb 25, 2008)

Browsing the web I've seen that the first generation actually was called Datachron (Google it), which maybe makes a bit more sense. The name was later on shortened down to Datron. So I'm afraid your collections won't be complete without a couple of Datachron as well


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

> Browsing the web I've seen that the first generation actually was called Datachron (Google it), which maybe makes a bit more sense. The name was later on shortened down to Datron. So I'm afraid your collections won't be complete without a couple of Datachron as well


Very interesting thanks !


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## nin. (Mar 11, 2010)

*A386 diameter?*

Hello everyone!

What is the diameter of the A386 model?

Regards
nin


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: A386 diameter?*



nin. said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> What is the diameter of the A386 model?
> 
> ...


38mm _sans _ crown


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## nin. (Mar 11, 2010)

*Re: A386 diameter?*

Thank you sir!


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## Gombrich (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: A386 diameter?*



nin. said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> What is the diameter of the A386 model?
> 
> ...





LouS said:


> 38mm _sans _crown


Yes, but do you find that the round case of the A 386 actually wears more like 40mm, whereas the more angular of the early El Primero cases (in this case the A 3818) feels somewhat smaller on the wrist, even though they are both about the same diameter? That's certainly the impression I get, perhaps because the 386 case sits prouder of the wrist.










Dave


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## LouS (Oct 6, 2009)

*Re: A386 diameter?*



Gombrich said:


> Yes, but do you find that the round case of the A 386 actually wears more like 40mm, whereas the more angular of the early El Primero cases (in this case the A 3818) feels somewhat smaller on the wrist, even though they are both about the same diameter? That's certainly the impression I get, perhaps because the 386 case sits prouder of the wrist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember you writing this before I landed my A 386, so when I got it, I was interested to verify it - quite true. That angled case of the A 3818 hugs the wrist much more closely, whereas the A 386 really sits flat on that four-pointed-star caseback, and the lugs poke out almost horizontally. It's a big 38mm, and I had to take calipers to it to make sure it was no wider across than the other.

Now here's a question: How would the esteemed members of the forum describe the A 3818 case (also the A 384 & 385 case, and case of the New Vintage 1969s)?

We established "turtle case" for that Captain of yours. What about this one?


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## Hartmut Richter (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: A386 diameter?*



LouS said:


> Now here's a question: How would the esteemed members of the forum describe the A 3818 case (also the A 384 & 385 case, and case of the New Vintage 1969s)?
> 
> We established "turtle case" for that Captain of yours. What about this one?


Chunky!:-d

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens (Sep 24, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *LouS*
> _Now here's a question: How would the esteemed members of the forum describe the A 3818 case (also the A 384 & 385 case, and case of the New Vintage 1969s)?_
> 
> ...


Didn't you call the A781 "chunky" ? 

I can't say I find this one chunky, on the contrary : it is rather unassuming, low-key for a vintage automatic chronograph. Very elegant. Very Zenith...

As Dave said : it


> feels somewhat smaller on the wrist


It is not a 'big' watch as far as size is concerned.:think:

The case looks a bit '_hexagonal_'.

Perhaps we can call it : _*the first and last case*_ of the vintage Zenith el Primero's.

Since it was used for the first Zenith El Primero (A384). And it was also used for the 2009 "new vintage" ZENITH EL PRIMERO...

It seems to me that it is anyway the most important case (in production numbers) for all the vintage Primero's : ref. A384, A385, A3817, A3818 : altogether 7000 were produced.


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