# Flieger Klassic: Handwinding vs. Auto



## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

Greetings, fellow Stowa enthusiasts. After owning a Tisell "homage" flieger on a Stowa strap for several months, I finally decided to upgrade to the real deal. I'm happy to say that I pulled the trigger last night on a brand new 40mm A dial, no logo, no date. For me, these specs were a no-brainer, but I'm having second thoughts on the ETA 2824-2 (top version) auto movement I selected.

Also let me state that I realize the topic of handwind vs. automatic in Stowa fliegers has been discussed before, so I hope it's okay that I'm starting a fresh and dedicated thread on the matter.

I'm still relatively new to watches, and this Stowa will be my first watch over 300 USD. I have a Hamilton Khaki with the ETA 2804 handwinding movement, and I very much enjoy that it's handwinding. Ideally, though, I'd prefer a watch that's an automatic movement that can also be hand wound. I don't own a watch winder and don't intend to, but I also like to keep my mechanical watches running if I don't wear them for a few days. Now, the ETA 2824 movement that Stowa uses is an auto that is indeed capable of being hand wound, but I discovered after making my order that this particular movement can be damaged from hand winding it. There are numerous discussions on this forum and others about this issue; from what I gather, the consensus is that it's okay to occasionally twist the crown 4-5 times to get the movement going, but anything beyond that, and the ETA 2824 will likely suffer some damage in the long run.

I was a but disappointed to read about this, and now I'm having second thoughts and kind of wishing I'd gone with the handwind option. I'd like to hear opinions on the matter, as I'm contemplating contacting Stowa and asking if it's not too late to pay the extra 16,81 € and switch to the handwind movement.

To give a but more insight on my initial reasoning for selecting the auto: since I'm still relatively new to mechanical watches, I'm somewhat paranoid about overwinding and breaking something. So I like the fact that automatics of course cannot be over wound. Hence, my ideal preference is an auto movement that can also be hand wound with no adverse effects. But apparently, this is not the case with Stowa flieger autos, and I must admit I was a bit disappointed to discover this to be the case in a roughly $1,000 watch.

Something else on my mind: I dislike noisy rotors in autos (such as the Miyota 9015 in my Tisell). How is the rotor noise on the ETA 2824? And is there any difference in the case thickness between the Stowa flieger autos and handwinds? I like a thinner case, and I understand that a handwind watch can be made thinner due to the lack of a rotor, but is there actually any difference between the two in Stowas?

Anyway, I'm probably overthinking things here, as I tend to do, but this is easily my most significant watch purchase so far, and I want to make sure I'm totally satisfied with it. In all honesty, I'd probably be happy with either the auto or the handwind, but I'd nonetheless appreciate some input. I of course need to contact Stowa very soon if I decide to change to the handwinding movement. I hope it's not already too late!

So I'd love to hear some opinions on handwind vs. auto, to hear from those who own one version or the other (or both) of the Stowa Flieger Klassic, what influenced your decision, any regrets, etc. I look forward to the discussion and appreciate any replies!


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## Raku (Mar 20, 2017)

The original watches made for the pilots that fought in WWII, that represent the models for these modern iterations, were all using hand-winding movements.
I would go for the 2801 and have a watch more historically correct.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Yes you will have troubles if you abuse the hand-winding function of an automatic ETA movement.

Go for a real hand-wound watch if you want to wind it manually.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

I decided to go ahead and request a change to the handwind version. I was initially quoted a 3 week wait time for my order, so hopefully assembly of my watch has not yet begun, and it's not too late for the substitute. I anxiously await a reply from Stowa to see what they say.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

I own ETA 2824-2 powered watches since app. 25 years and none (none) had any winding issue, never.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

stuffler said:


> I own ETA 2824-2 powered watches since app. 25 years and none (none) had any winding issue, never.


Ditto, all ETA movements can be safely started by hand afaik

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

I'm far from an expert, but the potential harm from hand winding an ETA 2824-2 is well documented on this forum and others. Something along the lines of a softer metal being used on some of the gears, which can be become damaged from manual winding. There are dozens of threads out there that can be easily found for those curious to do more research on the matter themselves.

Some folks, including a longtime member of this forum who is a watchmaker, advocate _never_ hand winding an ETA 2824, while others suggest that an occasional 6-7 turns just to start the watch should be fine. I'm inclined to agree with the latter. Should I ever own an automatic with the 2824 movement, I'll hand wind sparingly and no more than necessary to get it ticking. But I wouldn't feel like I should absolutely never hand wind.

Now, from the discussions I've read on the topic of 2824 hand winding, no one ever seems to mention the various grades of the movement. This is purely conjecture on my part, but I'm wondering if the top grade version Stowa uses could be more robust, and immune from any potential hand wind issues.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

Jacob Casper said:


> Ditto, all ETA movements can be safely started by hand afaik
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Starting the watch by hand is different from fully winding it everyday by hand to keep it running.

Sent from my LG-H630 using Tapatalk


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

lvt said:


> Starting the watch by hand is different from fully winding it everyday by hand to keep it running.


Why would someone do that ? Lack of knowledge ?


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

stuffler said:


> Why would someone do that ? Lack of knowledge ?


Why would someone do what? Fully manually wind an auto? There are automatic movements that can absolutely be regularly hand wound with no issues. Thankfully, I discovered the ETA 2824 is not one of them before purchasing a watch with said movement.


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

SJR3 said:


> Why would someone do what? Fully manually wind an auto? There are automatic movements that can absolutely be regularly hand wound with no issues. Thankfully, I discovered the ETA 2824 is not one of them before purchasing a watch with said movement.


This does not answer my question at all. Why would someone wind an automatic movement fully by hand?

How many reports have you been reading on this „flaw" of the 2824-2 and what % is this compared to the overall output of 2824-2 since 1982 ? it is by far the most produced and widest spread automatic movement on this planet. We are most likely talking about a ‰ failure rate.


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

stuffler said:


> This does not answer my question at all. Why would someone wind an automatic movement fully by hand?
> 
> How many reports have you been reading on this „flaw" of the 2824-2 and what % is this compared to the overall output of 2824-2 since 1982 ? it is by far the most produced and widest spread automatic movement on this planet. We are most likely talking about a ‰ failure rate.


I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure others have a similar philosophy...

I have several watches and I like to alternate them. So that means a given watch might be worn say twice a week. I'd prefer to keep the watch running (via manually winding it) when not worn rather than letting it run down, restarting, and resetting it each time I wear it.

Are you seriously saying you've never heard of the hand winding issues with the 2824 movement? If so, just give me a moment and I'll post links to half a dozen or more threads on the issue.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm merely making judgments off the research I've done. If reports cautioning against routine hand-winding of the ETA 2824 are false, I'd be happy to hear that. But this doesn't appear to be the case.


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## lvt (Sep 15, 2009)

stuffler said:


> Why would someone do that ? Lack of knowledge ?


Maybe it's just for fun.

Especially when the crown is big and agreable to turn.

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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

SJR3 said:


> Are you seriously saying you've never heard of the hand winding issues with the 2824 movement? If so, just give me a moment and I'll post links to half a dozen or more threads on the issue.


I am not saying I never heard of winding issues. Compared to billions of ETA 2824-2 ticking worldwide and based on the 2824-2 I own I say that those reports are just a‰. E-mail Stowa and ask how many ETA 2824-2 movement were sent back for repair/service because of a winding issue.



> I'd prefer to keep the watch running (via manually winding it) when not worn rather than *letting it run down, restarting, and resetting it each time I wear it*.


That however is exactly what the 2824-2 was/is made for.



> I'm not trying to start a debate...


Hmm, the first quote proves the opposite. Anyway, your money, your choice.


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## Raku (Mar 20, 2017)

Customers don't send them back because Stowa watches are bought by watch connoisseurs that know better than to manually wound them. I'm sure the Swiss entry level companies have a lot more returns.
The movement is not designed to be hand wound on a daily basis and I tend to agree with SJR3 on this.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

stuffler said:


> I am not saying I never heard of winding issues. Compared to billions of ETA 2824-2 ticking worldwide and based on the 2824-2 I own I say that those reports are just a‰. E-mail Stowa and ask how many ETA 2824-2 movement were sent back for repair/service because of a winding issue.


You make a good point that problems occurring with the 2824 are probably a very small percentage (and probably occur as a result of user error). After all, it's considered something of a "workhorse" movement for a reason. I appreciate your perspective; this is exactly the kind of discussion I sought when starting this thread. 

As I mentioned, I'm still relatively new to mechanical watches, so I probably overreacted upon reading of potential issues with the 2824-2. But after further research and reading the replies in this thread, I wouldn't hesitate to own watches with this movement; the key is simply knowing how to properly treat the watch, and in this case that means not abusing the manual wind feature.



stuffler said:


> That however is exactly what the 2824-2 was/is made for.


Yes, I understand this. But I do happen to find a small pleasure in hand winding watches, something lvt alluded to above. Stowa customer service replied to me first thing this morning and happily agreed to change my order to the 2804-2 handwinding version for the small surcharge. In the end, I'm sure I'd be happy either way, with the flieger auto or flieger handwind. But another thing that tipped me toward opting for the handwind version is that it doesn't have a rotor always obscuring half of the beautifully decorated movement. ;-)

And now, I wait. Thanks again for the discussion, gentlemen.


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## CHJ001 (Oct 5, 2017)

This is probably a dumb question, but is it possible to overwind the handwind movement that Stowa offers in lieu of the 2824 - 2, namely the 2804 - 2?


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

CHJ001 said:


> This is probably a dumb question, but is it possible to overwind the handwind movement that Stowa offers in lieu of the 2824 - 2, namely the 2804 - 2?


Yes, any hw movement can be overwound. You just have to ignore the resistance when wind8ng.


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## drlvegas (Jan 2, 2013)

CHJ001 said:


> This is probably a dumb question, but is it possible to overwind the handwind movement that Stowa offers in lieu of the 2824 - 2, namely the 2804 - 2?


It's fairly easy to do. I've broke the mainspring in my Panerai 000 twice by overwinding it. I believe it has the same movement as the two Stowas in my Signature.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

stuffler said:


> Yes, any hw movement can be overwound. You just have to ignore the resistance when wind8ng.


Exactly ^. And to elaborate:

To overwind a handwinding watch you have to be a brute ('cause you are breaking the mainspring or damaging a gear). As the watch becomes fully-wound turning the crown feels like you hit a wall and you can tell the watch does not want you to turn the crown any further. If you keep turning anyway you are a dunce who should stay away from precision machines (not calling you one, OP).

As you get to know your handwinder you will learn how many turns it takes daily. My Antea b2b with ETA 7001 takes about 17 turns daily. My Hamilton Khaki with a 2804-2 takes 18-19 turns each day. My watch with a 6498-2 takes 21-22.

So when you have wound the watch 3/4 of the way, you just turn more gently and be prepared to stop. Winding is quite pleasant to do, it focuses you on one thing and one thing only for 30 seconds in the morning.

IMHO, you made a good choice, the 2824-2 is ubiquitous, the 2801/2804, much less widespread.


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## SJR3 (Apr 4, 2017)

whineboy said:


> Exactly ^. And to elaborate:
> 
> To overwind a handwinding watch you have to be a brute ('cause you are breaking the mainspring or damaging a gear). As the watch becomes fully-wound turning the crown feels like you hit a wall and you can tell the watch does not want you to turn the crown any further. If you keep turning anyway you are a dunce who should stay away from precision machines (not calling you one, OP).
> 
> ...


Good bits of wisdom here. I also have a Hamilton Khaki with a 2804-2. Just curious which one you have? Mine is the H694190 "Officer Handwinding." When you say yours takes 18-19 turns each day, that's with the watch already ticking, and to get it back to full reserve, correct? In your experience, how many turns would it take to fully wind the watch after it has run down? I'm asking because I believe I've only "hit the wall" once with this watch, and I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 32-33 turns from a fully run down state. I typically shy away from winding all the way to the wall, out of a fear of breaking the mainspring. Although as you said, it would take brute force to actually break it. But on the other hand, drlvegas mentioned above that he's twice broken a mainspring from overwinding, and it's these anecdotes that concern me in regard to handwind movements. At any rate, my experience with daily winding my Hamilton is similar to yours: usually 16-20 twists of the crown to get it as close to "the wall" as I'm comfortable with. And I recognize that this discussion could be somewhat moot, as one man's turn of a crown won't necessarily be equal to another's...


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

SJR3 said:


> Good bits of wisdom here. I also have a Hamilton Khaki with a 2804-2. Just curious which one you have? Mine is the H694190 "Officer Handwinding." When you say yours takes 18-19 turns each day, that's with the watch already ticking, and to get it back to full reserve, correct? In your experience, how many turns would it take to fully wind the watch after it has run down? I'm asking because I believe I've only "hit the wall" once with this watch, and I think it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 32-33 turns from a fully run down state. I typically shy away from winding all the way to the wall, out of a fear of breaking the mainspring. Although as you said, it would take brute force to actually break it. But on the other hand, drlvegas mentioned above that he's twice broken a mainspring from overwinding, and it's these anecdotes that concern me in regard to handwind movements. At any rate, my experience with daily winding my Hamilton is similar to yours: usually 16-20 twists of the crown to get it as close to "the wall" as I'm comfortable with. And I recognize that this discussion could be somewhat moot, as one man's turn of a crown won't necessarily be equal to another's...


I have the basic Khaki mechanical:









Yep, about 30 turns from dead stopped to full wind. And you are right about different people's winds being different.

I wouldn't worry about breaking anything if you are reasonably careful. I can't speak to drivegas, but I have no qualms about fully-winding any of my handwinders (I admit to being a bit more careful about my Grand Seiko - someone told me it has a slipping bridle like an automatic, but it sure doesn't feel like that).


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## drlvegas (Jan 2, 2013)

whineboy said:


> To overwind a handwinding watch you have to be a brute ('cause you are breaking the mainspring or damaging a gear). As the watch becomes fully-wound turning the crown feels like you hit a wall and you can tell the watch does not want you to turn the crown any further. If you keep turning anyway you are a dunce who should stay away from precision machines (not calling you one, OP).


I suppose I'll take "brute" as a compliment(?), but "dunce" is a little harsh.

Both times I broke it, there was no real hard stop like I feel with my Stowa's. I think maybe it's the crown guard on the PAM since it causes you to have less grip/feel than the exposed crown.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

drlvegas said:


> I suppose I'll take "brute" as a compliment(?), but "dunce" is a little harsh.
> 
> Both times I broke it, there was no real hard stop like I feel with my Stowa's. I think maybe it's the crown guard on the PAM since it causes you to have less grip/feel than the exposed crown.


Sorry! Was not speaking about you, just in the abstract. Really, did not mean to offend.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## drlvegas (Jan 2, 2013)

whineboy said:


> Sorry! Was not speaking about you, just in the abstract. Really, did not mean to offend.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm a delicate flower, what can I say

Really, just kidding. I can't believe I broke the damn thing.


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## superslomo (Mar 10, 2014)

Is there any notable difference in accuracy, or size, between the manual and automatic versions?


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

superslomo said:


> Is there any notable difference in accuracy, or size, between the manual and automatic versions?


Automatics tend to be slightly thicker due to the rotor but accuracy is very much not due to the method of winding.


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## superslomo (Mar 10, 2014)

But a manual wind then wouldn't be any less or more accurate on that basis... interesting. I'm curious just because I have a few simple autos, and an inherited older Omega manual... I'm in this forum just because I'm incredibly fond of the stowa sterile fliegers and trying to figure out how to spring for one


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## StufflerMike (Mar 23, 2010)

superslomo said:


> Is there any notable difference in accuracy, or size, between the manual and automatic versions?


No.

You should note that they have the same pedigree. 1) to 4) are absolutely comparable.

Pedigree

2801: manual wind, 28.800 b/h, 11.5'''lines
2804: manual wind, date
2824-1: automatic, date
2824-2: automatic, date
2826-2: automatic, big date
2826: automatic, date, 36000 b/h
2832: automatic, day, date, 36000 b/h
2834: automatic, day at 12h, date, 13'''lines
2828, 2836: automatic, day, date

More interesting are the different materials used in the movements and the performance resulting out of that:

Standard and Elabore:
Mainspring - Nivaflex NO
Shock protection - Etachocs
Pallet stones - Polyrubies, Epilame-coated
Balance - Nickel gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Nivarox 2
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable

Top and Chronometre:
Mainspring - NivaflexNM
Shock protection - Incabloc
Pallet stones - Red rubies, Epilame-coated
Balance - Glucydur gilt
Balance staff - Epilame coated
Collet - Nivatronic
Hairspring - Anachron
Hairspring heat treatment - Etastable

The performance differences are the big differences between the various grades: ("The limit values are subject to interpretation: 95% of the pieces delivered in a lot must be within the specified limits.")

Standard:
2 positions (CH, 6H)
daily rate: +/-12 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 30 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 20 sec

Elabore:
3 positions (CH, 6H, 9H)
daily rate: +/-7 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 20 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 15 sec

Top:
5 positions (CH, FH, 6H, 9H, 3H)
daily rate: +/-4 sec/day
Maximum positional variation: 15 sec
Isochronism (between 0 and 24 hours): +/- 10 sec

Chronometre:
As per COSC specifications, which as far as most owners will notice, isn't much different from Top grade.

However: If there is a 2801 offered for a Flieger I'd always pull the trigger on that one simply because the predecessors have been hw too.


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## bpjacobs (Apr 13, 2016)

My tardy 2-cents: I am glad I waited for a hand winding Flieger. The onion crown is the best to grip and the movement winds like butter. There's also no "to wind or not to wind" dilemma that attaches to the 2824 series automatics.


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## JacobC (Aug 21, 2013)

bpjacobs said:


> My tardy 2-cents: I am glad I waited for a hand winding Flieger. The onion crown is the best to grip and the movement winds like butter. There's also no "to wind or not to wind" dilemma that attaches to the 2824 series automatics.


It's also quite intimate to wind a watch every day. I enjoy it.


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## Zoogleboogle (Oct 27, 2013)

I only hand wind my actual hand wind watches, otherwise a few shakes gets it going and im good


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## generic.tjohnson (Jul 6, 2018)

@SJR3;, how is the hand winding version working out for you? I'm currently debating a hand wind vs automatic flieger myself, and would love to hear any thoughts you have.

I'd prefer a hand wind, but I'm actually stuck up on the fact that I'd be paying more money for an elabore movement. The auto is a top grade movement, which seems to have advantages, at least on paper. Not sure if, practically speaking, better shock protection, glucydur balance wheel, and upgraded springs really makes a significant difference. Can anybody weigh in on that?


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

generic.tjohnson said:


> @SJR3; Not sure if, practically speaking, better shock protection, glucydur balance wheel, and upgraded springs really makes a significant difference. Can anybody weigh in on that?


See Stuffler's post above showing the expected differences in performance. Other than that, Top normally comes with slightly nicer finishing.


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## flyingpicasso (Jun 28, 2010)

generic.tjohnson said:


> @SJR3; Not sure if, practically speaking, better shock protection, glucydur balance wheel, and upgraded springs really makes a significant difference. Can anybody weigh in on that?


See Stuffler's post above showing the expected differences in performance. Other than that, Top normally comes with slightly nicer finishing. I'd still prefer the handwound movement personally.


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## hungdangnguyen23 (Mar 21, 2018)

Something to consider - the manual wind is noticeably thinner than the auto, at least that's the way it appears and feels on wrist for me. I think the manual is more comfortable but that's because it was my first Stowa and I'm probably just used to it. 

The auto feels more like a normal, automatic watch with the thicker caseback that will make the watch taller. For those that prefer a thicker, bulkier, more substantial feeling watch - you might be better off going with the auto.

For the record, and as someone who has both versions, I prefer the handwind.


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## Mach68 (Jan 1, 2017)

hungdangnguyen23 said:


> Something to consider - the manual wind is noticeably thinner than the auto, at least that's the way it appears and feels on wrist for me. I think the manual is more comfortable but that's because it was my first Stowa and I'm probably just used to it.
> 
> The auto feels more like a normal, automatic watch with the thicker caseback that will make the watch taller. For those that prefer a thicker, bulkier, more substantial feeling watch - you might be better off going with the auto.
> 
> For the record, and as someone who has both versions, I prefer the handwind.


Agree! There's just something about that feeling when you wind it up.


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## avian_gator (May 25, 2018)

hungdangnguyen23 said:


> Something to consider - the manual wind is noticeably thinner than the auto, at least that's the way it appears and feels on wrist for me. I think the manual is more comfortable but that's because it was my first Stowa and I'm probably just used to it.
> 
> The auto feels more like a normal, automatic watch with the thicker caseback that will make the watch taller. For those that prefer a thicker, bulkier, more substantial feeling watch - you might be better off going with the auto.
> 
> For the record, and as someone who has both versions, I prefer the handwind.


How thick is the handwind version? My auto is only 10mm to begin with - it's one of the thinnest watches I own! I was quite surprised by how slim it is when I first got mine.


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

avian_gator said:


> How thick is the handwind version? My auto is only 10mm to begin with - it's one of the thinnest watches I own! I was quite surprised by how slim it is when I first got mine.


I'd guess 9.2 - I believe Stowa uses the same cases for the Marine Auto and basic Flieger and I have only seen them as 10.2 and 9.2 (I am wearing a 9.2 mm MA with Soprod A10 and it is a nice size). If you want thinner, the Antea handwind is about 7.

I have a 2804-2 in a Hamilton Khaki and it is 9.5 mm thick.

All mechanical, all the time


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## happyrock (Jul 15, 2014)

Personal opinion, but the best thing about the Flieger Klassik is you can't go wrong with either one. I've had both a hand wound and currently have an automatic, and both were and are accurate, and a joy.


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