# Vacheron Constantin Overseas versus Rolex Submariner



## Mr.Sam Patek

I would like to upgrade my everyday watch for jeans and khaki wear. I think I have narrowed my search between a Vacheron Constantin Overseas versus a stainless Rolex Submariner. For business casual and dress I am already covered, so that neutralizes a likely Oversea "plus". Size wise I am comfortable with either a 40 mm (Sub or older Vacheron) or the newer 42 mm Overseas. Recognizing that the Vacheron is pricier and has a better pedigree I think I have narrowed by key concerns to a) durability of the movement, b) durability of the case c) overall comfort of the watch and d) lume. I am assuming the Rolex will hold its price better but I am a keeper rather than a trader. There is a part of me that thought I would never own a Rolex but the Sub does seem to meet my needs and is reasonably understated. Any help in comparing these watches would be greatly appreciated.


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## PremierCurrency

I'd go for the Vacheron without thinking twice. I never want to wear a watch that walking down the street you'll bump into a couple people wearing the exact same thing that you are... ala Rolex Sub.


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## drhr

VC for me, even though I've never seen either watch on anyone yet (except the sub on my wrist) . . .


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## GETS

VC - no question.


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## Shane94116

VC overseas wins by a landslide.


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## lorsban

Not familiar with VC movements but I know for sure Rolex movements are very robust.

Looks wise, both watches are quite different. The Rolex seems more conservative. But the VC is probably going to be more under the radar in comparison even if it looks a bit more flashy.

That said, if you have the cash for an Oversees, may I suggest you look at the Royal Oak? I think it looks better than those two.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk


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## Galactic Sushiman

LOL

Asking the high-end forum "should I go with an high-end watch or not?" should get you the answer you are looking for 

Btw surprised your wrist works with both the 40 and the 42mm, it's usually one or the other but rarely both.


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## Mr.Sam Patek

Galactic Sushiman said:


> LOL
> 
> Asking the high-end forum "should I go with an high-end watch or not?" should get you the answer you are looking for
> 
> That said, if you have the cash for an Oversees, may I suggest you look at the Royal Oak? I think it looks better than those two.


I pretty much anticipated both of these comments! Let me approach from a different angle- I had initial thought of going with a Royal Oak but was concerned after reading on this forum about the propensity for dings due to its case design. Does anyone have a sense of how the design of the VC case and movement will hold up to bumps versus the Rolex or the RO for that matter?


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## Galactic Sushiman

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> I pretty much anticipated both of these comments! Let me approach from a different angle- I had initial thought of going with a Royal Oak but was concerned after reading on this forum about the propensity for dings due to its case design. Does anyone have a sense of how the design of the VC case and movement will hold up to bumps versus the Rolex or the RO for that matter?


So, first, I do not own an Overseas nor a Sub (but I tried them on several occasions), and it seems obvious, just visually, that they will hold up much better than the super-angular case of the RO ding-wise. So if it was the primary factor, I'd chose the Overseas.

But honestly, and that's really JUST my opinion and nothing else, don't base your purchase on this:

I am sure there is one 'design' (and by design I don't mean just the visual look, but the overall concept) between the RO, the Overseas and the Sub that just resonates more than the others with you. Just go for it. You'll figure out a way to avoid door knobs in due time


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## darby11

I'm thinking this one. I love it.

Also:

Guessing rolex has more robust movement

Each super comfortable

My vc is holding up but it's in rotation so not sure in the long run

Rolex, lume is better, and blue!










Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Tick Talk

Nice to see so much love for the Overseas


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## Sassicaia

This may be the easiest question I have ever come across on this forum. VC without a doubt.


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## shnjb

lol

This has to be a troll post.


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## seanwontreturn

Technically rolex meet ur expectation better by much. I think the feedbacks u are having here reflect the others' preference than how the options cater to your needs. But Rolex is kind of watches you want to buy when you know you will abandon some day, which is not ur concern. Maybe you are just like the other ones voting for VC here, caring sth else more than claimed acceptance criteria.


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## rightrower

interesting thread. i probably would vote for rolex not vc, had i not come across this forum.

vc is a high end brand with pedigree. so is rolex.

i have handled rolex sub. though over-rated, it still moves me to wanting a rolex each time i handle. an un-doubted choice.

vc overseas is a more acquired taste in my opinion.

Sent from my LG-F240K using Tapatalk


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## heb

Except for the extra prestige of owning a VC, even though most wouldn't a VC from a PP or an IWC, you get no performance/reliability gains over a Rolex Sub. It all depends on what you want. Good luck with your choice. heb


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## Mr.Sam Patek

shnjb said:


> lol
> 
> This has to be a troll post.


Its funny that no one has presented any reason to go with the VC over the Sub except for exclusivity and pedigree. That I already knew and candidly my Patek, Lange and FPJ watches already serve that purpose.


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## Sassicaia

If I'm a troll because I didnt give reasons with my answer then ill state a couple (non are exclusivity or pedigree).

1.) The VC is a much better looking watch. The finish has more detail and IMO can be worn with a larger degree of dress types.
2.) The VC's steel bracelet is leaps better then the rolex. I recently compared the bracelet to the one on a PP nautilus and much prefer it over that. Its actually the best I have personally ever seen on any watch.
3.) To quote the watch snob its "not on the wrist of any 23 year old with a bonus". While that may fall slightly under the "exclusivity" to some, to me it simply means VC has maintained a certain type of integrity which better suits my personal taste. 
4.) The rolex has too many knock offs and "look a likes", while the VC is much more unique IMO.
5.) the VC has a lower profile making it less prone to "nicks and dings". I dont know the actual measurements off hand, but thats just my impression.
6.) The VC will never come across to anyone as though you bought a watch for the sake of saying "hey everyone look I can afford to buy an expensive watch and I want you to know that". In fact the VC is the opposite to that since almost no one in the general public will ever know what it is besides a nice looking classy watch.

To me #6 may be one of the most important reasons never to wear a rolex.


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## drhr

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> Its funny that no one has presented any reason to go with the VC over the Sub except for exclusivity and pedigree. That I already knew and candidly my Patek, Lange and FPJ watches already serve that purpose.


Does just pure aesthetics count? I hope so cause that's why I said Overseas. If not, please disregard my earlier post . . .


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## shnjb

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> Its funny that no one has presented any reason to go with the VC over the Sub except for exclusivity and pedigree. That I already knew and candidly my Patek, Lange and FPJ watches already serve that purpose.


I actually didn't read the post or see who was posting.

I think you should post ur collection and let people chime in.
If you don't have a (gentleman's) beater sport watch, sub is probably a better choice.


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## Mr.Sam Patek

drhr said:


> Does just pure aesthetics count? I hope so cause that's why I said Overseas. If not, please disregard my earlier post . . .


If that is the case, I should be the one apologizing. I thought I was getting the standard anti-Rolex biases which I acknowledge caused a bit of frustration. Merry Christmas to all.


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## shnjb

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> If that is the case, I should be the one apologizing. I thought I was getting the standard anti-Rolex biases which I acknowledge caused a bit of frustration. Merry Christmas to all.


Love rolexes but I don't think a sub compares to any vacheron.
The ubiquity of subs kind of turns me off.
I like their non sub watches.


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## drhr

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> If that is the case, I should be the one apologizing. I thought I was getting the standard anti-Rolex biases which I acknowledge caused a bit of frustration. Merry Christmas to all.


Oh, no worries and no need for an apology, at least to me, cause the look of a watch is the pretty much the only factor I consider (other than $) when making a purchase. I answer these opinion solicitations purely from that perspective and I'm sure many times it doesn't provide any help to the OP . . . Happy Holidays to you, too!!


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## Mr.Sam Patek

shnjb said:


> I actually didn't read the post or see who was posting.
> 
> I think you should post ur collection and let people chime in.
> If you don't have a (gentleman's) beater sport watch, sub is probably a better choice.


I probably do not have a gentleman's beater watch. My daily wearer (khakis) is a 30 year Heuer, my outdoor weekend watch is a Luminox or a G-Shock with my Saturday indoor watch a Platinum Datograph. I have a few higher watches that are more dressy.


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## lmcgbaj

Probably in minority here.

The VC is definitely more prestigious than the Rolex.

I tried it on a few times, but I like the APRO better. You can get better discounts on the VC but for the small difference, I would pick the APRO.

Now.... the Sub is a different type of watch. If you are looking for a rugged type of watch, the Sub is the better choice. I don't care for watches with bracelets too much. My collection is made of watches with leather straps. I only want one that can perform in all conditions. There is no substitute for the Sub.

So if you want a dressy/ casual/ chic bracelet watch, the VC is the better choice. Otherwise, I would get the Sub with no hesitation.


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## Shane94116

I said vc earlier not bc I hate Rolex. I think they are great watches, just like I think corvettes are nice cars. In both cases the buyer is a totally different question. That being said I rather sport a vc overseas in an Aston Martin than a sub in a corvette....


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## Metan1

Compared to VC the Rolex is mass production

Gesendet von meinem Nexus 4 mit Tapatalk


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## shnjb

Shane94116 said:


> I said vc earlier not bc I hate Rolex. I think they are great watches, just like I think corvettes are nice cars. In both cases the buyer is a totally different question. That being said I rather sport a vc overseas in an Aston Martin than a sub in a corvette....


Although I'm sure many will complain about the car analogy, I agree with you.
I would pick any Aston over a Corvette as well.


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## Mr.Sam Patek

Shane94116 said:


> I said vc earlier not bc I hate Rolex. I think they are great watches, just like I think corvettes are nice cars. In both cases the buyer is a totally different question. That being said I rather sport a vc overseas in an Aston Martin than a sub in a corvette....





shnjb said:


> Although I'm sure many will complain about the car analogy, I agree with you.
> I would pick any Aston over a Corvette as well.


Thanks to all. I have made the decision to go with the VC. It took me a while to understand the parallel relationship to my vehicle. For thirty years I have driven Porsches to work. Last year my company was acquired and I was told that for a Company car I would need to drive an American car (no SUVs). So, under duress I accepted a Cadillac on a take it or leave it basis. It was free, so the price was right. I have been pretty certain throughout my life I would own neither a Cadillac or a Rolex (or a Corvette). So, now it is a year later and while it is not a Porsche, the Cadillac is fine for a daily driver. It is kind of nice not to have to worry about it getting hit or stolen while I am in Chicago. I can park anywhere without concern and it certainly is a lot less expensive to maintain. I still have a Porsche in the garage (as with my high end dressier watches) and I have one less daily worry. The only place where I see the parallels diverge is the Cadillac draws less attention than a 911 as compared to the Rolex versus the VC which is the reason I plan to go with the VC. And, I would love to own a DB-9.

Anyhow, thanks for all the advice.


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## Sassicaia

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> Thanks to all. I have made the decision to go with the VC. It took me a while to understand the parallel relationship to my vehicle. For thirty years I have driven Porsches to work. Last year my company was acquired and I was told that for a Company car I would need to drive an American car (no SUVs). So, under duress I accepted a Cadillac on a take it or leave it basis. It was free, so the price was right. I have been pretty certain throughout my life I would own neither a Cadillac or a Rolex (or a Corvette). So, now it is a year later and while it is not a Porsche, the Cadillac is fine for a daily driver. It is kind of nice not to have to worry about it getting hit or stolen while I am in Chicago. I can park anywhere without concern and it certainly is a lot less expensive to maintain. I still have a Porsche in the garage (as with my high end dressier watches) and I have one less daily worry. The only place where I see the parallels diverge is the Cadillac draws less attention than a 911 as compared to the Rolex versus the VC which is the reason I plan to go with the VC. And, I would love to own a DB-9.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for all the advice.


what color are you going to get? Keep in mind if you get the titanium it doesnt suit the steel bracelet as well as the other colours because of the bezel not matching the polished parts of the bracelet. I dont know for sure, but I have heard the titanium is more prone to scratches then the steal.


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## darby11

Sassicaia said:


> what color are you going to get? Keep in mind if you get the titanium it doesnt suit the steel bracelet as well as the other colours because of the bezel not matching the polished parts of the bracelet. I dont know for sure, but I have heard the titanium is more prone to scratches then the steal.


FYI - the deep stream looks amazing on the steel, IMO. It happens to be the nicest bracelet I've ever handled on a watch. While, I get what this poster is saying as far as matching and the particulars of buying the watch as intended (the deep stream isn't offered on bracelet) - I still bit the bullet and put mine on steel. I love it and don't find an issue of non matching bezel and parts of the bracelet. The case is brushed and most of the bracelet is too.

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## Shane94116

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> Thanks to all. I have made the decision to go with the VC. It took me a while to understand the parallel relationship to my vehicle. For thirty years I have driven Porsches to work. Last year my company was acquired and I was told that for a Company car I would need to drive an American car (no SUVs). So, under duress I accepted a Cadillac on a take it or leave it basis. It was free, so the price was right. I have been pretty certain throughout my life I would own neither a Cadillac or a Rolex (or a Corvette). So, now it is a year later and while it is not a Porsche, the Cadillac is fine for a daily driver. It is kind of nice not to have to worry about it getting hit or stolen while I am in Chicago. I can park anywhere without concern and it certainly is a lot less expensive to maintain. I still have a Porsche in the garage (as with my high end dressier watches) and I have one less daily worry. The only place where I see the parallels diverge is the Cadillac draws less attention than a 911 as compared to the Rolex versus the VC which is the reason I plan to go with the VC. And, I would love to own a DB-9.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for all the advice.


Sam congrats. That post me laugh. I saw a Cadillac pulling into my complex a couple of days ago and I did a double take. I see a heck of a lot more Porsche 911 here than I do Cadillacs. Would love to see pics when it arrives.
Shane


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## TimelessFan

darby11 said:


> I'm thinking this one. I love it.
> 
> Also:
> 
> Guessing rolex has more robust movement
> 
> Each super comfortable
> 
> My vc is holding up but it's in rotation so not sure in the long run
> 
> Rolex, lume is better, and blue!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I'm not a fan of VC Overseas but this one on a leather strap is SO ******* COOL!!!

WoW!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lmcgbaj

TimelessFan said:


> I'm not a fan of VC Overseas but this one on a leather strap is SO ******* COOL!!!
> 
> WoW!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is beautiful. I totally agree.


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## Tick Talk

darby11 said:


> (the deep stream isn't offered on bracelet)


No worries, all the OS straps and bracelets are interchangable. The Deep Stream chronograph comes with rubber and leather straps but I know those who have also ordered the ss bracelet and it looks wonderful.


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## tony20009

You sound like you are in much the same position as I and others here in that you already have enough watches that there're few logic-driven cases to be made for choosing one over the other, save perhaps Rolex's lume, although I can think of some:

*A case based on relatively intangible factors/benefits*: pedigree, prestige of the watch/brand, etc. This case only becomes rational if one starts with the premise that prestige, pedigree, etc. matter. If one doesn't open with that as a premise, this type of case is purely emotional, as opposed to "mostly emotional." I don't know what you think about these traits, but for me they are irrelevant. 
*A case based on the movements*: there are clearly differences and if one is a "movement junkie," that is one objective dimension where the differences in the movement designs and execution are clear. I care that a watch's movement works reliably and doesn't require undue (by my standard) involvement and/or inconvenience on my part. Beyond that, one is as good as another. What is your take on movements? 

Were I choosing for myself, my thinking would be:


*Rolex costs less, but I can get a better discount on a VC. * 
Rolex's Sub is a very hard watch to beat in its category (dive watches). IMO, the Sub is a watch with a purpose. The Overseas is more a competitor for a Rolex DateJust, Milgauss or Day-Date (based on style/purpose) than to the Sub. *Were I comparing a Sub with anything, my other candidate(s) would be another true dive watch, one that has a rotating bezel.* 
*It's going to be far easier to maintain the Rolex.* There simply are more places I can have it serviced. I wouldn't think of giving a VC to anyone but an approved VC service facility. I have little concern about handing my Rolex over to a local watch repairman. 
Brand core competencies:
VC offers many models that I like far better than the Overseas, even though I also like the Overseas and it's a very fine watch. 
Rolex offers a ton of Oyster models and the Sub is just one of them. It is the one I like best because it's something that few competitors have matched in terms of price, ease of ownership and simple good looks, the total package, even though on at least one of those dimensions, many competing watches can match the Sub. * At the end of the day, however, for me, an Oyster is an Oyster is an Oyster*. From a collecting standpoint (style has more to do with my choices than most other watch traits), *once I've bought one, I can go a long time, if not forever, without needing another*. 
Whereas *I value Rolex watches for durability, reliability and consistency, VC is prized by me* (and that's whose value system matters since it's my money buying it) *for their visual elegance and refinement*. I think of the Overseas as a watch VC offer because they have to have something to compete against the swarm of Oyster models Rolex offer. IMO, VC named the Overseas as it did mostly so folks would see some correspondence between it and a Sub and do exactly what you are doing: consider it as a Sub alternative. 

Following from point four, the Sub is a quintessential Rolex (along with other models), but a VC isn't a distinctively VC offering. Both facts have some appeal to me. *With a curatorial approach to collecting, I'd pick the Rolex* *and buy a different model of VC. With my my "fashionista" hat on, I'd pick the VC *because it looks aren't often emulated: non-WIS will like it for its looks and are less likely to appreciate it "becasue" it's a VC. The latter is far more likely to happen with the Rolex. I personally like it when I can feel (more sure rather than less sure) that the compliments I receive are based on something other than someone being "impressed" simply because I can spend a large sum on a thing, or simply because it's expensive. 
*If I don't own a Rolex already, I'd buy the Sub. If I do own a Rolex, I'd buy the VC.* 

All the best.

You can't make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen.
- Michelle Obama


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## georges zaslavsky

Rolex for me


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## tony20009

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> Thanks to all. *I have made the decision to go with the VC.*
> 
> ...*I was told that for a Company car I would need to drive an American car (no SUVs). So, under duress I accepted a Cadillac *on a take it or leave it basis. It was free, so the price was right. I have been pretty certain throughout my life I would own neither a Cadillac or a Rolex (or a Corvette). So, now it is a year later and while it is not a Porsche, *the Cadillac is fine for a daily driver.*... *I would love to own a DB-9*.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for all the advice.


Good watch choice. Not that I couldn't have said that about either, but I like the look of the VC better.

Off Topic:
Is the company car an ATS by any chance? I've read a number of very nice things about that model. That and the CTS-V are the only Caddys that appeal to me, The back seat of the big "executive sedan" one the car services sometimes use is quite nice too, but I doubt I would enjoy driving that model.

All the best.

Money may not buy happiness, but I'd rather cry in a Jaguar than on a bus.
- Franciose Sagan


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## Galactic Sushiman

tony20009 said:


> Good watch choice. Not that I couldn't have said that about either, but I like the look of the VC better.
> 
> Off Topic:
> Is the company car an ATS by any chance? I've read a number of very nice things about that model. That and the CTS-V are the only Caddys that appeal to me, The back seat of the big "executive sedan" one the car services sometimes use is quite nice too, but I doubt I would enjoy driving that model.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Money may not buy happiness, but I'd rather cry in a Jaguar than on a bus.
> - Franciose Sagan


Please don't misspell Françoise Sagan first name, she deserves better 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## tony20009

Galactic Sushiman said:


> Please don't misspell Françoise Sagan first name, she deserves better
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


TY...the "io" was a typo, but the missing cedilla was just laziness.


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## Mr.Sam Patek

tony20009 said:


> Good watch choice. Not that I couldn't have said that about either, but I like the look of the VC better.
> 
> Off Topic:
> Is the company car an ATS by any chance? I've read a number of very nice things about that model. That and the CTS-V are the only Caddys that appeal to me, The back seat of the big "executive sedan" one the car services sometimes use is quite nice too, but I doubt I would enjoy driving that model.


The Caddy is a CTS4 (Sedan, 4 door). I think the ATS is a better vehicle with more intuitive Navigation and a few more bells and whistles.

Regarding a earlier comment you made, if I was to do a Rolex Sub, I imagine it would be my only Rolex as I must have 100 watches on my wish list and none of them are Rolex. I wish I was more into autos like years gone by versus watches. It was a "simpler time" and less costly. I remember when I had four cars and was pretty darn satisfied. Now even though I own what was closest thing to a grail watch for me (PT Datograph) and a few other equivalents, I still look for watches everyday. What started as a diversion looks to an insatiable exercise. LOL


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## entropy96

I'll go against the flow and choose the Sub

*flame shield on*


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## tony20009

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> The Caddy is a CTS4 (Sedan, 4 door). I think the ATS is a better vehicle with more intuitive Navigation and a few more bells and whistles.
> 
> Regarding a earlier comment you made, if I was to do a Rolex Sub, I imagine it would be my only Rolex as I must have 100 watches on my wish list and none of them are Rolex.* I wish I was more into autos like years gone by versus watches.* It was a "simpler time" and less costly. I remember when I had four cars and was pretty darn satisfied. Now even though I own what was closest thing to a grail watch for me (PT Datograph) and a few other equivalents, I still look for watches everyday. What started as a diversion looks to an insatiable exercise. LOL


Ditto. If nothing else, after a certain point, the real estate requirements of car collecting keep one "in check." Not so with watches. LOL.

O bliss of the collector, bliss of the man of leisure! Of no one has less been expected and no one has had a greater sense of well-being than... a collector. Ownership is the most intimate relationship one can have to objects. Not that they come alive in him; it is he who comes alive in them.
- Walter Benjamin


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## refugio

Did you see the recent (mammoth) thread about VC service? That would give me pause, particularly if I had other high-end watches with similar service requirements.


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## Tick Talk

refugio said:


> Did you see the recent (mammoth) thread about VC service? That would give me pause, particularly if I had other high-end watches with similar service requirements.


To be fair, that thread became "mammoth" because so many related similar difficulties with other high-end brands. The overarching issue is that after-sales service is greatly undervalued by brands and customers alike...but its only the customer that suffers the consequences; brands get away with poor after-sales service when the market is driven more by prestige than performance ;-) I'll repeat my challenge to the brands; transform your faux quality control programs like Patek Seal, Geneva Seal, etc., with durability and reliability standards that do not inconvenience the customer during a reasonable warranty period. Remember when retailers gave out loaners during service?


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## kkchome

The VC Overseas Chronograph is on my target list for 2014. That being said, if I did not have a Sub, I would go out and get one first. It is still my favorite everyday watch.


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## tony20009

refugio said:


> Did you see the recent (mammoth) thread about VC service? That would give me pause, particularly if I had other high-end watches with similar service requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> Tick Talk said:
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, that thread became "mammoth" because so many related similar difficulties with other high-end brands. The overarching issue is that after-sales service is greatly undervalued by brands and customers alike...but its only the customer that suffers the consequences; brands get away with poor after-sales service when the market is driven more by prestige than performance ;-) I'll repeat my challenge to the brands; transform your faux quality control programs like Patek Seal, Geneva Seal, etc., with durability and reliability standards that do not inconvenience the customer during a reasonable warranty period. Remember when retailers gave out loaners during service?
Click to expand...

I read that thread. My personal take was that the OP doth protesteth too much. That and he seemed entirely unwilling to have been proactive in getting his simple request addressed in a timely and "business sensible" manner. In other words, there was plenty of blame - poor management skills and poor collaboration -- to go round between him and VC both.

All the best.

I know it's important to do more than just complain when there's something you don't like. You need to try to do something about it, or you're nothing but a whiner.
- Jean Ferris, _Twice Upon a Marigold_


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## mleok

I have both the Vacheron Constantin Overseas and the Rolex Submariner Ceramic No Date. For me, they are quite different watches, the VC Overseas is a dressy sports watch, and the Submariner is a more casual sports watch. Given that you already have a few high-end watches that fit the dress and business casual setting, I think the Submariner is the better choice for you.

The VC Overseas is a beautiful watch, with an exceptionally well finished case and bracelet, but it has contrasting polished and brushed finishing that is much more prone to scratches, and it lacks micro-adjustments on the bracelet. In contrast, the Rolex has a proven record of robustness and durability, and the bracelet is very comfortable due to the tool-free Glidelock clasp. Based on your criteria, I would go with the Rolex Submariner.


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## Sassicaia

tony20009 said:


> I read that thread. My personal take was that the OP doth protesteth too much. That and he seemed entirely unwilling to have been proactive in getting his simple request addressed in a timely and "business sensible" manner. In other words, there was plenty of blame - poor management skills and poor collaboration -- to go round between him and VC both.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> I know it's important to do more than just complain when there's something you don't like. You need to try to do something about it, or you're nothing but a whiner.
> - Jean Ferris, _Twice Upon a Marigold_


Im the OP of that thread, and I have to say you are completely out to lunch with your comment. I was lied to about a delivery time from VC, and had multiple request to talk directly ignored. The rep from VC said through the AD "pay us now, and you will have a watch in a couple weeks". I paid on a thursday, and when inquiring on the following tuesday what the ETA was I was told it went from a couple of weeks to 4 months. I requested VC to contact me directly 3 times to discuss the issue, and each time they chose to hide behind the dealer and would not call me directly. The best they could offer was a stale box of chocolates and a crappy wallet equal to something you could find at any airport kiosk. LOL! when I informed them of the outdated box of chocolates (at that point it was more of a joke and wanting to know what would happen next), i was told they would send me a new box, but that I would FIRST have drive the old box back to the dealership in order for it to be sent back. It was issue after issue, and to be honest everyone I shared the story with felt they would have lost it much earlier in the process then me. Want to know how it ended? The AD and VC had a call without me, and after I received a call saying they were returning all my money (i paid cash in full). I told them I did not want the money back as I wanted to guarantee the price we agreed on based on paying up front. It was forced back.

It was simply the worst buying experience I had ever encountered. Ever. You say I wasn't proactive enough? How many times should I have had to request to speak to the accountable before that request be fulfilled? All I wanted to do was buy a watch and have the terms everyone agreed on fulfilled.

If you want to continue the debate on brand integrity and the pre/post consumer experience I'm all yours because on that topic I can run. VC failed miserably and thats a fact.

BTW, whats with the Shakespearian verbiage? Do you feel it some how elevates you?

"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish"
- Euripides, Bacchae


----------



## tony20009

Sassicaia said:


> ....If you want to continue the debate on brand integrity and the pre/post consumer experience I'm all yours because on that topic I can run. VC failed miserably and thats a fact.
> 
> BTW, whats with the Shakespearian verbiage? Do you feel it some how elevates you?...


I would have a very different opinion on the matter of your VC experience were it that you'd shared it after the whole thing had been resolved. I did when I read it and do now believe that VC dropped the ball. No doubt about that at all. I yet feel that you seemed more committed to complaining about it in public as a way toward obtaining a solution, and as a way to embarrass VC, rather than just pursuing the matter discretely. That and complaining, again publicly and before a final resolution, about chocolates and a wallet, still seems petty to me, regardless of whether it worked.

What I took from that thread is:
- VC could have handled the situation better.
- You cold have handled the situation better.
- VC needs better communication and collaboration skills and the need to teach their employees and/or agents how to better manage customers and their expectations.
- Small watch producers don't differ from any other small company. One must help them manage the situation more effectively than what might occur to them to do.

You questions:
No, I felt by virtue of the obsolete style it added an element of dramatic humor to my comment.

All the best.

Good management is the art of making problems so interesting and their solutions so constructive that everyone wants to get to work and deal with them.
- Paul Hawken


----------



## Sassicaia

tony20009 said:


> I would have a very different opinion on the matter of your VC experience were it that you'd shared it after the whole thing had been resolved. I did when I read it and do now believe that VC dropped the ball. No doubt about that at all. I yet feel that you seemed more committed to complaining about it in public as a way toward obtaining a solution, and as a way to embarrass VC, rather than just pursuing the matter discretely. That and complaining, again publicly and before a final resolution, about chocolates and a wallet, still seems petty to me, regardless of whether it worked.


Here is where we disagree. I only posted a thread AFTER my experience with VC. There was a straw that broke the back, but with that said I always knew at some point I would share it. I feel its my duty as a consumer to share my experience with other potential buyers. Why on earth does VC (or any company) not deserve an honest review (good or bad)? I owe them nothing similarly to what they feel they owed me as a customer. Why on earth would I care if VC is embarrassed by their acts? Does logic not stand to reason that they should stand behind all their decisions and be ok with them being public? Surely if they would prefer that I not share my experience with how they chose to treat me then that in itself is reason to perhaps reflect on the situation as it was unfolding? No?

The chocolates and wallet were petty considering how much of my time they wasted and what they dragged me through. They took what should have been a good experience and made it work and a time waster for me. I wasted a lot of time, and I don't appreciate people wasting it. I expressed in emails VERY clearly when the process was unfolding how much of my time was being wasted, and how frustrating the whole thing was. Again, it took multiple requests to even get a direct response let alone a "solution".

I for one believe that social media such as forums, twitter etc etc work in great favour for the consumer and should be used as a tool to keep brands from all industries accountable to a greater standard. Its my opinion that its comments like mine in situations like this that make companies respond to be better. Thats not just my opinion, I know this for a fact . Many organizations constantly scan things like twitter to see if people comment negatively about them. If some brands tarnish as a result then an equal number will thrive.

You and I will have to agree to disagree. I did a service, and owe nothing to VC least of all discretion. Had they done something in the end to "make good", and i accepted their gesture/resolution only then would i feel obligated to keep the situation to myself. There is room for them to improve, but without pressure, reviews, public feedback they simply never will regardless of their company's mission statement.


----------



## Sassicaia

BTW, just to be clear my experience has nothing to do with the quality of their watches/product. My experience was purely only the level of consumer experience.


----------



## drhr

Sassicaia said:


> BTW, just to be clear my experience has *nothing to do with the quality of their watches/product.* My experience was purely only the level of consumer experience.


Oh, that's good, I was just gonna ask . . .I'm hunting an Overseas down and now will continue the search.


----------



## Sassicaia

drhr said:


> Oh, that's good, I was just gonna ask . . .I'm hunting an Overseas down and now will continue the search.


Not the watches in the slightest. I have always felt VC makes some of the best time pieces and I still do. The history and craftsmanship of VC is far beyond the actions (or lack of) any current individuals making decisions relating to consumer experience.


----------



## drhr

Sassicaia said:


> Not the watches in the slightest. I have always felt VC makes some of the best time pieces and I still do. The history and craftsmanship of VC is far beyond the actions (or lack of) any current individuals making decisions relating to consumer experience.


Thx! And your customer service experience notwithstanding (I feel for you), that's the reason I'm willing to overlook/deal with said service issues/negatives. But the "quality" of the piece has to be damn good, we'll (personally) see . . .


----------



## georges zaslavsky

shnjb said:


> Love rolexes but I don't think a sub compares to any vacheron.
> The ubiquity of subs kind of turns me off.
> I like their non sub watches.


Yes but a sub never loses its value as the opposite of a vacheron


----------



## tony20009

Sassicaia said:


> Here is where we disagree. I only posted a thread AFTER my experience with VC. There was a straw that broke the back, but with that said I always knew at some point I would share it. I feel its my duty as a consumer to share my experience with other potential buyers. *Why on earth does VC (or any company) not deserve an honest review (good or bad)? I owe them nothing similarly to what they feel they owed me as a customer.* *Why on earth would I care if VC is embarrassed by their acts?* Does logic not stand to reason that *they should stand behind all their decisions and be ok with them being public?* Surely if they would prefer that I not share my experience with how they chose to treat me then that in itself is reason to perhaps reflect on the situation as it was unfolding? No?
> 
> The chocolates and wallet were petty considering how much of my time they wasted and what they dragged me through. They took what should have been a good experience and made it work and a time waster for me. I wasted a lot of time, and I don't appreciate people wasting it. *I expressed in emails VERY clearly when the process was unfolding *how much of my time was being wasted, and how frustrating the whole thing was. Again,* it took multiple requests to even get a direct response let alone a "solution"*.
> 
> *I for one believe that social media such as forums, twitter etc etc work in great favour for the consumer and should be used as a tool to keep brands from all industries accountable to a greater standard.* Its my opinion that its comments like mine in situations like this that make companies respond to be better. Thats not just my opinion, I know this for a fact . Many organizations constantly scan things like twitter to see if people comment negatively about them. If some brands tarnish as a result then an equal number will thrive.
> 
> *You and I will have to agree to disagree.* *I did a service, and owe nothing to VC least of all discretion.* Had they done something in the end to "make good", and i accepted their gesture/resolution only then would i feel obligated to keep the situation to myself. T*here is room for them to improve, but without pressure, reviews, public feedback they simply never will regardless of their company's mission statement.*


I should be clear: I don't mind that you wanted to and did share the details of your experience. I do think that it is informative for others to know of it, and for exactly the reason you stated (red). It seems pretty clear to me that VC mishandled the matter and that there is/was a management failing pertaining to how they handle customer service and/or warranty issues.

Maybe I'm "old school," but I wouldn't have sent any emails beyond the first one, if I even sent that. I would have sought my resolution in person in at least one of several ways:

Telephone --I may have called VC and spoke with someone to obtain a speedy resolution.
In Person -- I may have gone to the VC seller with whom I first discussed the matter and had them make the call while I waited.
I would have taken either of these approaches because unlike many people nowadays, I don't see email as a form of interpersonal communication. It's definitely a mode of communication, but there's nothing personal about about. It doesn't put a person, a face, to the issue. It's just too easy for companies to ignore, bury, "accidentally overlook" or whatever an email that rolls in from God knows where. Some form of personal contact creates a much greater sense of obligation on the person who's either right in front of you or on the other end of the phone.

When a _person _is ticked off over something a another did, it is a _personal_ matter and someone on both sides needs to be aware of that. The offending business/person needs to be aware that they are upsetting a person. Emails, regardless of how strongly worded, don't very well convey that there's a person who's been slighted, not the way a call or personal appearance does. Even at work, when I have criticism for my staff, yes, I do send and email (that's mostly because of HR constraints), but I call the persona immediately after hitting "send." I want the person to hear/sense the disappointment I'm feeling as well as the optimism I have for improvement in the future. I just think that that's the way to show proper respect for them as well as for how I feel about the situation. I think important matters and people deserve that level of respect.

It may be that I'm old fashioned in that I'm just not casual in how I handle stuff like your issue with VC or how I handle people and their emotions (others' and my own). Emails are quick and easy, but quick and easy is, IMO, cheap. I really don't think there's anything "cheap" about your feelings of dissatisfaction and disappointment, and I'd have been equally annoyed (about the watch, not the candy) with VC. Yet, I wouldn't have involved other folks -- least of all a community of anonymous strangers -- in the situation as the matter was unfolding. That's the aspect of discretion to which I was referring. Just like any other contentious matter, unrelated/unaffected parties have no business in it. The reasons:

If those folks agree with me, their agreement will fuel the flame of my anger and self righteousness.
If those folks disagree with me, their dissent will fuel the flame of my anger and make me angry not only with VC, but with them too.
Neither of those outcomes is beneficial to me, the situation or the offending party. Once I'd obtained a resolution, then would, IMO, be the time to share the details of what transpired.

We can agree to disagree. We clearly see the situation differently, and in all fairness to you, I "wasn't there," and can only based my statements on what you've written. As with any story, things -- situational facts both major and minor, confounding events that may have inspired or prohibited various other actions, etc. -- get lost in the retelling of it. It's easy for me to "armchair quarterback" the facts of how both parties handled the matter. The only thing I'm pretty firm about is my opinion about the timing of when you shared the story.

All the best.

Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.
- Maimonides, _The Guide for the Perplexed_


----------



## drhr

georges zaslavsky said:


> Yes but a sub never loses its value as the opposite of a vacheron


Wow, I've really been in a coma. Never, really? Are you assuming a certain time frame? If not, I'd better buy a bunch and immediately resell for at least cost or wait a bit and sell for a profit. . .


----------



## Sassicaia

georges zaslavsky said:


> Yes but a sub never loses its value as the opposite of a vacheron


mhm...a quick search on chono24 or ebay shows VC holds it value very well.


----------



## georges zaslavsky

drhr said:


> Wow, I've really been in a coma. Never, really? Are you assuming a certain time frame? If not, I'd better buy a bunch and immediately resell for at least cost or wait a bit and sell for a profit. . .


Over a very long period like 25-35 years, the value of a double red sub 1680 or double red 1665 sea dweller or comex sub or comex sea dwellers or even a 5517 british marine military submariner have broken the roof of what was reasonable. They have reached values that have never been reached before.A very first example of a stainless steel 1963 rolex ref 6239 daytona sold for 295000$ at last christie's auction.


----------



## georges zaslavsky

Sassicaia said:


> mhm...a quick search on chono24 or ebay shows VC holds it value very well.


I would never buy a vacheron from ebay or from chrono 24 knowing the risks involved but would rather buy from a well reknown second hand and vintage watch shop.


----------



## mleok

georges zaslavsky said:


> Over a very long period like 25-35 years, the value of a double red sub 1680 or double red 1665 sea dweller or comex sub or comex sea dwellers or even a 5517 british marine military submariner have broken the roof of what was reasonable. They have reached values that have never been reached before.A very first example of a stainless steel 1963 rolex ref 6239 daytona sold for 295000$ at last christie's auction.


These watches were produced in limited quantities, have historical significance, and examples in good condition are extremely rare. I would not extrapolate from this to conclude that a modern day Rolex will command a similar kind of stratospheric appreciation.


----------



## drhr

georges zaslavsky said:


> Over a very long period like 25-35 years, the value of a double red sub 1680 or double red 1665 sea dweller or comex sub or comex sea dwellers or even a 5517 british marine military submariner have broken the roof of what was reasonable. They have reached values that have never been reached before.A very first example of a stainless steel 1963 rolex ref 6239 daytona sold for 295000$ at last christie's auction.


Thank you! Glad you qualified "never" by adding the time frame. Unfortunately for me, my age precludes my making any money on any Rolex purchased today. Back to the drawing board, sigh . . . .


----------



## GETS

tony20009 said:


> I should be clear: I don't mind that you wanted to and did share the details of your experience. I do think that it is informative for others to know of it, and for exactly the reason you stated (red). It seems pretty clear to me that VC mishandled the matter and that there is/was a management failing pertaining to how they handle customer service and/or warranty issues.
> 
> Maybe I'm "old school," but I wouldn't have sent any emails beyond the first one, if I even sent that. I would have sought my resolution in person in at least one of several ways:
> 
> Telephone --I may have called VC and spoke with someone to obtain a speedy resolution.
> In Person -- I may have gone to the VC seller with whom I first discussed the matter and had them make the call while I waited.
> I would have taken either of these approaches because unlike many people nowadays, I don't see email as a form of interpersonal communication. It's definitely a mode of communication, but there's nothing personal about about. It doesn't put a person, a face, to the issue. It's just too easy for companies to ignore, bury, "accidentally overlook" or whatever an email that rolls in from God knows where. Some form of personal contact creates a much greater sense of obligation on the person who's either right in front of you or on the other end of the phone.
> 
> When a _person _is ticked off over something a another did, it is a _personal_ matter and someone on both sides needs to be aware of that. The offending business/person needs to be aware that they are upsetting a person. Emails, regardless of how strongly worded, don't very well convey that there's a person who's been slighted, not the way a call or personal appearance does. Even at work, when I have criticism for my staff, yes, I do send and email (that's mostly because of HR constraints), but I call the persona immediately after hitting "send." I want the person to hear/sense the disappointment I'm feeling as well as the optimism I have for improvement in the future. I just think that that's the way to show proper respect for them as well as for how I feel about the situation. I think important matters and people deserve that level of respect.
> 
> It may be that I'm old fashioned in that I'm just not casual in how I handle stuff like your issue with VC or how I handle people and their emotions (others' and my own). Emails are quick and easy, but quick and easy is, IMO, cheap. I really don't think there's anything "cheap" about your feelings of dissatisfaction and disappointment, and I'd have been equally annoyed (about the watch, not the candy) with VC. Yet, I wouldn't have involved other folks -- least of all a community of anonymous strangers -- in the situation as the matter was unfolding. That's the aspect of discretion to which I was referring. Just like any other contentious matter, unrelated/unaffected parties have no business in it. The reasons:
> 
> If those folks agree with me, their agreement will fuel the flame of my anger and self righteousness.
> If those folks disagree with me, their dissent will fuel the flame of my anger and make me angry not only with VC, but with them too.
> Neither of those outcomes is beneficial to me, the situation or the offending party. Once I'd obtained a resolution, then would, IMO, be the time to share the details of what transpired.
> 
> We can agree to disagree. We clearly see the situation differently, and in all fairness to you, I "wasn't there," and can only based my statements on what you've written. As with any story, things -- situational facts both major and minor, confounding events that may have inspired or prohibited various other actions, etc. -- get lost in the retelling of it. It's easy for me to "armchair quarterback" the facts of how both parties handled the matter. The only thing I'm pretty firm about is my opinion about the timing of when you shared the story.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.
> - Maimonides, _The Guide for the Perplexed_


That's one of the best posts I have ever read on here.


----------



## tony20009

drhr said:


> Thank you! *Glad you qualified "never" by adding the time frame. * Unfortunately for me, my age precludes my making any money on any Rolex purchased today. Back to the drawing board, sigh . . . .


ROTFL!!!


----------



## entropy96

First and foremost, it highly depends on what your budget dictates.

If money is not a concern, the VC Overseas would be my choice.
It has a better pedigree, more elaborate movement, better bracelet & case quality and finishing, and the 'exclusivity factor'.

Regarding the Submariner: The Rolex Submariner is regarded nowadays as the quintessential diver.
Of course, there will be many owners of this particular model, both WIS and non-WIS alike.
The quality and finishing of the bracelet and case, as well as the movement, is decent, albeit a bit overpriced. This is mainly due to brand recognition. It's the same thing when buying a Samsung vs a Skyworth LED TV, or a Hyundai vs a Toyota. People's perception of a brand affects ALL markets.

Regarding the movement, I'm willing to bet the Submariner is more robust compared to the Overseas (though this is merely just speculation on my part).
The servicing cost will definitely be a lot less for the Submariner, though not necessarily a factor if money is not a concern.

Nevertheless, whichever you choose, both are great watches.
I assure you that you will be pleased with either choice.


----------



## georges zaslavsky

GETS said:


> That's one of the best posts I have ever read on here.


agreed


----------



## clarencek

tony20009 said:


> The reasons:
> 
> If those folks agree with me, their agreement will fuel the flame of my anger and self righteousness.
> If those folks disagree with me, their dissent will fuel the flame of my anger and make me angry not only with VC, but with them too.
> Neither of those outcomes is beneficial to me, the situation or the offending party. Once I'd obtained a resolution, then would, IMO, be the time to share the details of what transpired.


This is the age of the internet. 
People post because they want to vent, or they want some validation of their feelings, etc. 
there are a myriad of reasons why people will turn to an Internet forum to vent.


----------



## Sassicaia

tony20009 said:


> I should be clear: I don't mind that you wanted to and did share the details of your experience. I do think that it is informative for others to know of it, and for exactly the reason you stated (red). It seems pretty clear to me that VC mishandled the matter and that there is/was a management failing pertaining to how they handle customer service and/or warranty issues.
> 
> Maybe I'm "old school," but I wouldn't have sent any emails beyond the first one, if I even sent that. I would have sought my resolution in person in at least one of several ways:
> 
> Telephone --I may have called VC and spoke with someone to obtain a speedy resolution.
> In Person -- I may have gone to the VC seller with whom I first discussed the matter and had them make the call while I waited.
> I would have taken either of these approaches because unlike many people nowadays, I don't see email as a form of interpersonal communication. It's definitely a mode of communication, but there's nothing personal about about. It doesn't put a person, a face, to the issue. It's just too easy for companies to ignore, bury, "accidentally overlook" or whatever an email that rolls in from God knows where. Some form of personal contact creates a much greater sense of obligation on the person who's either right in front of you or on the other end of the phone.
> 
> When a _person _is ticked off over something a another did, it is a _personal_ matter and someone on both sides needs to be aware of that. The offending business/person needs to be aware that they are upsetting a person. Emails, regardless of how strongly worded, don't very well convey that there's a person who's been slighted, not the way a call or personal appearance does. Even at work, when I have criticism for my staff, yes, I do send and email (that's mostly because of HR constraints), but I call the persona immediately after hitting "send." I want the person to hear/sense the disappointment I'm feeling as well as the optimism I have for improvement in the future. I just think that that's the way to show proper respect for them as well as for how I feel about the situation. I think important matters and people deserve that level of respect.
> 
> It may be that I'm old fashioned in that I'm just not casual in how I handle stuff like your issue with VC or how I handle people and their emotions (others' and my own). Emails are quick and easy, but quick and easy is, IMO, cheap. I really don't think there's anything "cheap" about your feelings of dissatisfaction and disappointment, and I'd have been equally annoyed (about the watch, not the candy) with VC. Yet, I wouldn't have involved other folks -- least of all a community of anonymous strangers -- in the situation as the matter was unfolding. That's the aspect of discretion to which I was referring. Just like any other contentious matter, unrelated/unaffected parties have no business in it. The reasons:
> 
> If those folks agree with me, their agreement will fuel the flame of my anger and self righteousness.
> If those folks disagree with me, their dissent will fuel the flame of my anger and make me angry not only with VC, but with them too.
> Neither of those outcomes is beneficial to me, the situation or the offending party. Once I'd obtained a resolution, then would, IMO, be the time to share the details of what transpired.
> 
> We can agree to disagree. We clearly see the situation differently, and in all fairness to you, I "wasn't there," and can only based my statements on what you've written. As with any story, things -- situational facts both major and minor, confounding events that may have inspired or prohibited various other actions, etc. -- get lost in the retelling of it. It's easy for me to "armchair quarterback" the facts of how both parties handled the matter. The only thing I'm pretty firm about is my opinion about the timing of when you shared the story.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> Truth does not become more true by virtue of the fact that the entire world agrees with it, nor less so even if the whole world disagrees with it.
> - Maimonides, _The Guide for the Perplexed_


Here is the reason I shared my story. 3 months after the whole ordeal I bought a VC overseas on the spot from a different dealer. 2 weeks later some screws fell off the back (remember?). I ordered replacement screws and it took 4 MONTHS to get them in. 4 Months with at least 4-5 follow up requests from myself. After placing an order for screws did I need to call, or have a face to face in order to see that transaction to its end?

Having two ridiculous experiences unrelated to each other at different times compelled me to share my experience with potential future buyers for no other reason then to arm them with important, relevant and current information. What they do with that info is up to them. You made a comment about the "timing" of my post, but to be honest I have no idea what you're referring to. The timing was purely predicated on having enough information to share a worth while experience. Nothing more.

It sounds like you're almost condoning that because someone communicates via email the receiver has some type of excuse not to respond as if someone made a phone call. I would have to disagree 100%. Further, my communication wasn't limited to only emails. I spoke with the AD on the phone and in person many times. I told the AD I wanted VC to call me after the issues elevated to an unreasonable level and enough of my time was wasted. At that point VC was aware I wanted to speak with them, but a choice was made to not reach out to me. No other communication from my part should had been needed IMO. Would calling them direct, or making a hand written letter help? Perhaps, but that shouldn't be needed. In my business I'm responsible for 1000s of monthly transactions, 1000s of clients, and manage a laundry list of employees. I can assure you that if any important issue was sent by email to me I would address it, and would never expect any different types of correspondence. But hey, thats just me. Obviously i made the classic mistake of assuming someone handle an issue the way I would. In business I treat every complaint in a way that I would want it to be handled if I were on the other side.

Email, phone call, written letter, fax, or any other type of method to communicate should all be taken just as seriously. Its about the details, and what is being said rather then how the message is being sent especially in the situation where a customer is upset.

This isn't comparable to managing an employee or coaching someone where face to face communication would obviously be needed. This is a case where a customer is not happy and requests a call to resolve it.

I link any professional success of mine to the fact that I'm always paranoid. If someone gives me a projection, im paranoid its not going to happen so i inspect every angle of it. If a customer is unhappy im paranoid im going to loose them, or the issue is bigger then it sounds so im on the situation immediately and then follow up after the resolution just to be absolutely sure everything is ok. Anything less is lazy to me. Perhaps I set myself up for disappointment when i expect the same from others, but one thing I know for sure....im not lowering my standards to meet someone else's.

I do, however, understand what you are saying. Phone calls go further then emails, face to face goes further then phone calls. My point is in my situation it wasn't required, and doesn't give any excuse to what my experience was.

In the end it doesn't matter. People will read your point of view and agree, and someone out there may even agree with mine. The point is I shared it because I believe this industry has a lack accessible reviews, and for some reason seems to lack in pre and/or post customer service. I believe reviews (good and bad) accomplish two things 1.) arm potential buyers with information 2.) cause companies to improve. Those are the only two reasons for sharing the experience.


----------



## tony20009

^^ Okay.

I'm surprised you'd buy a second VC, especially less than a year later, after having had so much drama with the first one. But that's you, not me. I probably wouldn't buy any VC after the first one given what you went through the first time.

All the best.

With all these forks in the roads of our path, why do so many choose to take the knife?
- Anthony Liccione


----------



## Sassicaia

tony20009 said:


> ^^ Okay.
> 
> I'm surprised you'd buy a second VC, especially less than a year later, after having had so much drama with the first one. But that's you, not me. I probably wouldn't buy any VC after the first one given what you went through the first time.
> 
> All the best.
> 
> With all these forks in the roads of our path, why do so many choose to take the knife?
> - Anthony Liccione


You miss-understood. The first story ended with the dealer forcing a refund on me. I took my money and months later bought a VC on the spot. As I mentioned earlier the service experience never changed my opinion on the watches themselves. It would take an ENORMOUS ego for someone at VC to think they represent the product made by VC. My experience was isolated to my region, and was entirely created by the people in charge. Its possible this would not happen in other regions etc. Further, im convinced that the issues of long wait times for service etc are issues many major watch brands share, in fact, im sure of it.

I never posted that people shouldnt buy VC watches, only to be aware of my experience and do what they want with the information.


----------



## entropy96

Sassicaia said:


> You miss-understood. The first story ended with the dealer forcing a refund on me. I took my money and months later bought a VC on the spot. As I mentioned earlier the service experience never changed my opinion on the watches themselves. It would take an ENORMOUS ego for someone at VC to think they represent the product made by VC. My experience was isolated to my region, and was entirely created by the people in charge. Its possible this would not happen in other regions etc. Further, im convinced that the issues of long wait times for service etc are issues many major watch brands share, in fact, im sure of it.
> 
> I never posted that people shouldnt buy VC watches, only to be aware of my experience and do what they want with the information.


I agree with your assessment.

I've had a few Rolexes serviced at different service centers.

i never returned to the service centers that had slow servicing.


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## davidtsee

I'd also go for VC (found this thread through Google Search for the oversea's model).


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## ilitig8

Did the OP ever make a choice?


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## tony20009

davidtsee said:


> I'd also go for VC (found this thread through Google Search for the oversea's model).


Frankly, I find Google a better tool for searching WUS than do I find the search feature inside WUS. Hmmmm.....



ilitig8 said:


> Did the OP ever make a choice?


He chose the VC. (https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/vac...us-rolex-submariner-958873-3.html#post7156152)

All the best.


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## HRC-E.B.

shnjb said:


> Although I'm sure many will complain about the car analogy, I agree with you.
> I would pick any Aston over a Corvette as well.


I have to agree that for any purpose other than actually "driving", the Aston is the better car. If you were looking for a sports car to actually drive like a sports car (i.e., on a track or challenging road), you'd be ill advised in picking the Aston.

As to the watches, I'm not sure the analogy sticks. Both have their pluses and minuses, and I don't think there are quite as clear cut at is the case with the two cars.


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## ilitig8

tony20009 said:


> Frankly, I find Google a better tool for searching WUS than do I find the search feature inside WUS. Hmmmm.....
> 
> He chose the VC. (https://www.watchuseek.com/f381/vac...us-rolex-submariner-958873-3.html#post7156152)
> 
> All the best.


Thanks, Tony. I even remember reading that post but all I remember from it was the car stuff, it didn't even register he made a choice! Guess my true colors are showing, more of a petrol head than a WIS I suppose.


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## Mr.Sam Patek

ilitig8 said:


> Thanks, Tony. I even remember reading that post but all I remember from it was the car stuff, it didn't even register he made a choice! Guess my true colors are showing, more of a petrol head than a WIS I suppose.


There is a little irony here. I am the OP but haven't pulled trigger as I am looking to acquire and rebuild a RR Defender. Since it looks to be a bunch of $, I am deferring the watch until I better understand that cost before moving forward on another watch. So, my true colors may be showing as well.


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## TimelessFan

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> There is a little irony here. I am the OP but haven't pulled trigger as I am looking to acquire and rebuild a RR Defender. Since it looks to be a bunch of $, I am deferring the watch until I better understand that cost before moving forward on another watch. So, my true colors may be showing as well.


Well, I'll buck the trend and give a nod to Rolex. I picked one up a few months ago (GMT II LBNR) and absolutely love it. And this is coming from a huge VC fan and an owner (Patrimony). The VC model you're considering is great, too, so, you really can't go wrong here. But Rolex Sub is an iconic watch. VC Overseas is not. VC as a brand is more exclusive, yes, but I'd rather wear a beautiful sweater from JCrew well than wear a Prada just because it's Prada.


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## ilitig8

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> There is a little irony here. I am the OP but haven't pulled trigger as I am looking to acquire and rebuild a RR Defender. Since it looks to be a bunch of $, I am deferring the watch until I better understand that cost before moving forward on another watch. So, my true colors may be showing as well.


Very cool, I had one back in the middle 90s, you could get good used ones for under 30K, I have no idea what the market is now. The only vehicle you can see the panel gaps from space...

I sold mine to get a Series III which I kept until I got a great offer for it about 4 years ago. I had PLANNED to get a Unimog but the wife used one of her very rare vetoes because it would not fit in the garage and the HOA wouldn't let me add a garage since the way our house sits the door on any new garage would have to face the street and they wouldn't let me take out the trees to build a drive to the back side. Just as well, I would have gotten tired of it and be left with an ugly wart on the house until I paid to get the door replaced by a smaller one...


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## Mr.Sam Patek

ilitig8 said:


> Very cool, I had one back in the middle 90s, you could get good used ones for under 30K, I have no idea what the market is now. The only vehicle you can see the panel gaps from space...
> 
> I sold mine to get a Series III which I kept until I got a great offer for it about 4 years ago. I had PLANNED to get a Unimog but the wife used one of her very rare vetoes because it would not fit in the garage and the HOA wouldn't let me add a garage since the way our house sits the door on any new garage would have to face the street and they wouldn't let me take out the trees to build a drive to the back side. Just as well, I would have gotten tired of it and be left with an ugly wart on the house until I paid to get the door replaced by a smaller one...


To buy a Defender fully restored is about $100,000, which is just wacky. I think I will pick up something in Spain for about $15,000 and see what it takes bringing it up to 90-95 points. I built equipment once to fit on a Unimog and periodically look at Unimog drawings. My bride and I were talking about the original Hummer as an alternative to the Defender but the Unimog makes the Hummer seem like a Yugo. I think you need at least 5 other vehicles in your garage before you make the move to either. They are massive and really call for a gun turret.


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## ilitig8

Mr.Sam Patek said:


> I think you need at least 5 other vehicles in your garage before you make the move to either. They are massive and really call for a gun turret.


As for other vehicles, check. The Unimog really isn't to drive it is to "deploy".  To be honest I don't really want a Uni any more, my desire for one was to put a big "Hummer Recovery Vehicle" sign on the back, just my nice way of saying "hello" to the myriad Hummer drivers of days past. While they used to be ubiquitous as cockroaches someone apparently turned on the light and they all scurried away. That isn't to say I wouldn't like to have a mil-spec H1 but that is a whole different animal.


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## robbo400

I'm in the fortunate position of being able to enter high-end for the first time (current collection: Longines Flagship cal 341 (1960), Oris (1998 and 2005), Tag Heuer Carerra (2002), Omega Speedy (2009), Brietling Navitimer World (2012)), and also being on the verge of buying 2 watches.

1. A daily wearer with good legibility and date feature - I love my Speedy as my daily wearer but miss having a date. I will miss the chrono feature which I do use daily but I want a very clear dial where I can see the minute markers at a glance so as timing things is pretty easy. I have been considering the VC Overseas date automatic with white dial and the Rolex Datejust ii with smooth bezel and silver dial/batons. My search brought me to this thread.

2. A dress watch as a present to myself for my forthcoming 50th birthday. I really like the GO Sixties Panorama Date -the retro 60s influence also linking in nicely with my birth date - and have tried on both the steel and gold versions. I had told myself that I would buy a JLC or VC having been a fan of these 2 marques long before I could afford either. But the new JLC Master series is too small for me both aesthetically and in terms of legibility on the Master Calendar whose earlier version had been my grail for years. I've also looked at the Patrimony Contemporaine and Traditionelle - they are absolutely beautiful but seem fragile and, to me, do not have the wow factor that would justify the purchase.

For my daily wearer, do you think the Overseas would be robust enough for everyday use? I do not have a designer lifestyle. While I work for a professional services firm, the watch also needs to be able to stand up to wider use outside the office. When things go wrong like needing to change a flat tyre in the middle of the night etc, I would also be wearing this watch. From what I read, the Rolex would be tough enough, would the Overseas? I've tried both on and the VC, although a little heavy compared to my ideal weight, fits so well and just oozes class. I never thought I would wear a Rolex but I do like the DJ2. In my mind I associated Rolex with a certain type of person (no offense to anyone, I realise this is my prejudice and not reality) but I have moved on from 
that, albeit I do think that a Rolex will attract more attention from unsavoury characters and I do not want to end up either in hospital or on an assault charge through someone trying to take my watch. I'm guessing most of these idiots wouldn't know a VC from a £30 watch. The price difference is obviously a factor but I don't intend selling so value retention is not an issue.

Regarding the dress watch, what is the general opinion on GO? I have never seen a detailed review. I suppose brand image is important to me, not for the snob value but for wanting to buy something tried and tested which will last the test of time. A friend of mine purchased a Universal Genève back in 2007 - it's obviously a brand with great history, the new models looked great and there was talk of the Microtor movement becoming the envy of the industry but now they are nowhere to be seen and the remaining dealer I know will give 70% off as he winds down his stock. I guess being part of Swatch, GO is unlikely to experience such a dramatic downturn but does anyone see this being a possibility? I am lucky enough to split my time between London and Geneva, so I have great access to all brands. I've also looked t the GP 1966 small seconds/date and the UN Classico but it really is the GO that sings to me. Would it be a bad move and do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks


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## robbo400

Any opinions/experiences on whether the VC Overseas will be as robust as the Rolex DJ2 for everyday wear? Also, does anyone have experience of GO and the quality of the Sixties Panorama Date model? Thanks


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## kkchome

My gut feeling is that the movement in the Rolex will be more robust than the one in the VC. I have no empirical data to back that up, but I have never had any issues with any of my Rolex watches, even the old ones. I also own 2 VC Overseas from the previous generation, one a Chronograph and the other a Chronometer. I haven't had them long, so I don't have a clue how robust they are (or are not). They are really lovely watches, though. I'm very fond of the design and I especially like the thinness of the Chronometer. I don't think that it would be a problem to wear them everyday. They are water resistant to 150m, have screw-down crowns and have anti-magnetic cases. 

I only have one GO and I really love it. It has the classic caliber 49 hand wound movement with the classic German 3/4 plate, swan neck regulation and the really nice decoration. 

I think it is hard to go wrong with the 3 options you are considering. If I were in your shoes, I'd go with the one that sings to you the most.


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## mleok

robbo400 said:


> Any opinions/experiences on whether the VC Overseas will be as robust as the Rolex DJ2 for everyday wear? Also, does anyone have experience of GO and the quality of the Sixties Panorama Date model? Thanks


The VC Overseas Automatic uses a JLC 889/2 calibre, and I'm pretty certain it isn't as robust as a Rolex 3135 calibre, but then again, few movements are. It should be perfectly fine if you intend to wear it in a business setting, but I might hesitate wearing it if it'll be subject to regular vibrations and impacts.


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## Bladesfield

What do you want the watch for? 

The Rolex has two main benefits going for it: It's a better tool watch in that it will have a sturdier movement and being a diver watch rated for 300M, will have a sturdier case as well. The Rolex will also be cheaper and hold its value better.

The VC has two main benefits as well: It has a better name. Yes, Rolex is the most known "luxury" watch company on the plant, but VC is one of the best watch companies on the planet in terms of prestige and quality, and it's much more exclusive than a Rolex. I would rather have the VC logo on my wrist than a Rolex (Rolex is still great though, and I love my Sub). VC will also have better finish work. It's more expensive for a reason, there are countless hours of hand work put into each watch.



As for people saying VC Overseas has the Rolex Sub beat on aesthetics, well, that is subjective and will differ from person to person. I personally think the VC looks better than the SubC in some aspects (case/lugs/bracelet) and not on others (dial/hands/bezel).


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