# Sinn 903 vs Breitling Navitimer



## andyk8

Has anyone owned both the 903 and the Breitling Navitimer?

If so how would you compare them? Does the Sinn hold up well against the Breitling in terms of fit and finish? Is the Breitling worth all that extra money?

I'm seriously considering purchasing a 903 new (none available used at the moment)


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## Mark_NJ

There is a lot of shared history here and both have their merits and fans. The newer Navis have the in house movement while the 903 has a tried and true "pedestrian" movement of that matters to you. I have seen a version of the 903 with blue dial which is drop dead gorgeous and I would get in a second! Plus, it is less money than the Navitimer. You can't go wrong with either. 


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## Hunterfate

I had Sinn 903 and it is a beautiful watch with a great finish (dial is especialy beautiful) and it has more WR than Navitimer.

On the negative side - while outer design is similar to Navitimer, slide rule is operated using crown at 10 'o clock position.
While this is good regarding greater WR, slide rule is unusable while wearing 903 on the wrist. It was a deal breaker for me.

So, for me, if you are a Breitling fan - Navitimer is a way to go.

_*Edit: The following claim I made is highly unlikely so I appologize for making it without checking the source:*_
BTW it is interesting to note that Sinn has rights on Navitimer design (bought when Breitling was closing down) so Sinn is entitled to collect a percent on every Navitimer that leaves factory.


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## CastorTroy3

Hunterfate said:


> BTW it is interesting to note that Sinn has rights on Navitimer design (bought when Breitling was closing down) so Sinn is entitled to collect a percent on every Navitimer that leaves factory.


I don't know this to be true or false but I find it unlikely that this is still the case. Sinn acquired the Breitling design patents in the 70s and I beleive that design patents are only good for 25 years. As such I have to believe these patents are long expired. No one pays Rolex for Sub-like designs so why would Breitling have to pay Sinn or vice versa. I do believe that the life of trAde names (I.e. Navitimer) is indefinite and that is why Sinn doesn't refer to the 903 as a Navitimer rather it is a Navigational Chronograpgh.

Now back lack to the topic. This is an interesting discussion and it would be nice to hear some first hand responses. I actually struggled with the same question when I was purchasing my Navitimer as well. It's well known that Breitling spends a ton on advertising and it's clear that the advertising dollars spent per watch manufacturer end is likely more then every other watch manufacturer. Sinn is also pretty well respected on the quality front. On this sight I would venture to say it is praised way more than Breitling. Ultimately, I looked at the Breitling in the metal and was wowed and was unsure whether the Sinn would give me the same wow factor as the Breitling. Looking at the two in pictures it seems that there are some little details that I like more about the Breitling like the option for no Arabic numbers, the black window dials, the more fluted dial, Hyde differences in polishing, the quality of AR, and the additional slide rule pusher. If I had the chance to see the Sinn in person I may well have ended up With a Sinn. Without ever seeing the Sinn I can say I'm one happy Navitime owner.


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## Hunterfate

OK, now the discussion is going further, here are my other arguments on Navitimer vs 903 while I was holding them in my hands (never owned Navitimer, it was from another forum member in Croatia):
- ETA 7750 modified Sinn has different proportion of subdials - they are smaller and more apart than on Navi - one point for Navi
- 903 is a little thicker and not always comfortable on (my) wrist - another point for Navi
- I love Breitling wings on the dial :-d
- Navi is just 30m WR - it is not a watch for all situations... Big (-) for Navi but there is no solution to this question while retaining the original design of slide rule which is more usable than one on 903 :roll:

In the end - I sold the 903 but never bought a Navitimer . Still cannot justify the price to myself because it isn't 'do-it-all' watch.

When the time came to buy a 30m WR watch, I bought a Moonwatch .

IMHO if someone is wishing a Navitimer, 903 is nice watch for what it is, but it is not a substitution for that Navitimer urge. It would be nice having them both |>


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## Nokie

> It would be nice having them both |>


The longer you stay interested in this hobby, the greater the chance of that happening......


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## Kurt Koerfgen

With respect to Sinn collecting fees from Breitling for Navitimers, this is the first I hear and I consider it highly unlikely.

The history was as follows:
1. In 1978 the original Breitling Company was dissolved and the remaining workforce laid off as, like many other Swiss watch companies, Breitling found it difficult to compete against Asian quartz watches. Shortly afterwards Willy Breitling, the last owner, passed away, effectively ending the era where the company was controlled by a member of the Breitling family.

2. Breitling and Navitimer names, remaining part-assembled watches and watch parts were sold off during the liquidation.
Ernest Schneider, owner of the lesser known Sicura watch company, bought in 1979 the rights to the "Navitimer" and Breitling" name.
Part-assembled watches and parts where bought among others by Sinn and Ollech & Wajs, who continued to assemble and- in Sinn's case - further develop the watch, but could use neither the "Navitimer" nor "Breitling" name that was now owned by Ernest Schneider.

3. The new Breitling company under Ernest Schneider relocated and resumed production in Grenchen, Switzerland, successfully adapting to the quartz age and at the same time re-introducing models like the venerable Navitimer, relying extensively on Valjoux 7750 movements before more recently introducing Breitling movements.

Before I further discuss the rather outlandish claim that Sinn collects fees from Breitling, I would thus like to see some supporting evidence as there is as far as I know nothing in the Breitling history to support this claim.


K.


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## Hunterfate

@Kurt and others
I apologize for foolish speed while I was writing the post and not verifying the source of the claim I made, so I cannot support this with anything substantial.

I don't know why I even wrote it, because it is not the subject of this thread and not relevant in 903 vs Navitimer decision.

Sorry.


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## heb

The biggest drawback to the Sinn variant is the obliteration of so many minute chapters by the subdials. Back in the old days, aircrew members had to know the exact minute, not guess. Today, with GPS this and that, who knows.

heb


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## Kurt Koerfgen

The 903 is a good watch at a significantly lower price point than the Breitling Navitimer.

I own several Cosmonaute models of the Navitimer range and own a few 903's as well.

Craftsmanship and finish is better on Navitimers, as should be expected considering the higher price, but the 903 has nice heft and looks, and feels and behaves like the quality watch it is. 

I regret to have to say though that Sinn watches are more likely to go back to the service center shortly after purchase to have hidden defects rectified. This has happened to me only once on a Breitling (that was replaced straight-away by the local dealer), but has happened sufficiently often with Sinn watches to become noticeable. I believe I own enough watches from both brands (more than 20 each) to be entitled to make such a statement.
Combined with the different Sinn distribution model and the limited availability of Sinn certified service centers, this may be an important consideration. After the break-in period, any Sinn I ever bought became a dependable and reliable watch though, and accuracy is comparable to Breitlings. 

As far as the movement is concerned, the ETA/Valjoux 7750 is a tried and tested movement that Breitling used to install in Navitimers and continues to use it in large numbers. I do not believe that an in-house movement is inherently "better", even though it may give the watch owner (bragging) rights to claim the the movement is made by Breitling, but this would not bias me against the Sinn 903.

Both watches are legitimate successors to the original Navitimer and while Sinn was more successful in increasing water-resistance of their 903, it came at the price of a somewhat awkward additional crown.
Before holding that against the 903, one would have to ask oneself how often one expects to use the slide-rule function (once the novelty has worn off), and how often the watch is likely to be immersed in water. The ultimate preference may thus depend on the owners circumstances.

Both are nice watches and the ultimate choice may be influenced by price, intended use, and to a lesser extent by ease of access to a service center.


K.


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## andyk8

Thanks to everyone who replied. Much appreciated.

At the moment I am set on the 903 as I cannot justify the extra cost of the Navitimer. I appreciate that the Navi has an in house movement but aesthetically they both appear the same and other than quality this is the 2nd most important thing to me.

I like the addition of the slide rule crown on the 903 but if I'm honest I'll never use it.

The extra water resistance is of importance to me though.

Thanks again to everyone for their replies. 

Keep an eye on the Sinn forum and you might see me posting pics of my new 903 soon!


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## marker2037

I would make sure you try them both on to be sure before you buy either of them.


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## andyk8

marker2037 said:


> I would make sure you try them both on to be sure before you buy either of them.


That's not an option for me unfortunately as there are no Sinn dealers in Ireland!


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## Airbus

I had the 903 and now Navi 01. The 903 is a nice watch, but not in the same league considering attention to details. I also find the Navi to be more balanced in its dimensions, the 903 always seemed to high given its diameter. I am much more satisfied with the Navi. Yes, expensive but worth it I think.


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## citjet

I have owned both and can say without a doubt that both are fantastic and wouldn't hesitate to own the Sinn again but the Breitling does have subtle advantages but with it a significant price increase.

Sinn's knob control of the slide rule is a good feature as you don't need a gasket changed every few years to maintain water resistance. But I feel Breitling does a better job in keeping the dial looking better with more details and depth. Also Breitlings bracelet is better for fit and finish. You can adjust the Breitling to fit perfectly but Sinn has the style that double folds and is to me a problem because you're either tight or loose and you have no choice.


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## Ithuriel

Hi,

I wrote a piece on this topic here:
Navitimers and Navigation Chronographs | WatchPaper
It covers many of the points already made by knowledgeable members of this forum.


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## dan4138

I was considering a Navitimer for a while, but decided at the price it was a bit too much of a specialty model for me (and I was horrible using a slide rule as a kid, despite the visual appeal it would bring back bad memories). I then saw the 903 at the Watchbuys roadshow and was really impressed by the blue dial, and at that price point that Sinn seemed attractive. Ended up getting a 103 though, which I am delighted with. I use the rotating bezel all the time.


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## Kurt Koerfgen

The Sinn 103 is a nice watch that I am happy to own as well.

Breitling used to offer the Aviastar that had similar design features, a understated watch that was close to my heart. 
For a while versions were available with black, blue or brown dial.
I used to own all three versions, but one was unfortunately stolen last year.

They were only available for a few years and then disappeared without a trace or successor.


K.


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## mwalle6

There's some great information here. I have been lusting after a 903 myself simply due to the price difference, but may be rethinking that after reading this thread.


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## TheGanzman

mwalle6 said:


> There's some great information here. I have been lusting after a 903 myself simply due to the price difference, but may be rethinking that after reading this thread.


I was/AM right there with you! I was THIS CLOSE to pulling the trigger on a vintage Sinn 903 (the one without the forth crown/button on the LH side) after owning two Breitling Navitimers in the past (and obviously "pining" for them). After reading this thread, I re-resolved to find another Navitimer; as luck would have it, a fully restored small sub-registers 806 Twin Jet "landed" in my watch box, and I haven't looked back!


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## Squirrelly

Kurt Koerfgen said:


> With respect to Sinn collecting fees from Breitling for Navitimers, this is the first I hear and I consider it highly unlikely.
> 
> The history was as follows:
> 1. In 1978 the original Breitling Company was dissolved and the remaining workforce laid off as, like many other Swiss watch companies, Breitling found it difficult to compete against Asian quartz watches. Shortly afterwards Willy Breitling, the last owner, passed away, effectively ending the era where the company was controlled by a member of the Breitling family.
> 
> 2. Breitling and Navitimer names, remaining part-assembled watches and watch parts were sold off during the liquidation.
> Ernest Schneider, owner of the lesser known Sicura watch company, bought in 1979 the rights to the "Navitimer" and Breitling" name.
> Part-assembled watches and parts where bought among others by Sinn and Ollech & Wajs, who continued to assemble and- in Sinn's case - further develop the watch, but could use neither the "Navitimer" nor "Breitling" name that was now owned by Ernest Schneider.
> 
> 3. The new Breitling company under Ernest Schneider relocated and resumed production in Grenchen, Switzerland, successfully adapting to the quartz age and at the same time re-introducing models like the venerable Navitimer, relying extensively on Valjoux 7750 movements before more recently introducing Breitling movements.
> 
> Before I further discuss the rather outlandish claim that Sinn collects fees from Breitling, I would thus like to see some supporting evidence as there is as far as I know nothing in the Breitling history to support this claim.
> 
> K.


I had heard somewhere that when Breitling went into meltdown back in the day, they sold rights for the Navitimer design to Sinn and at least one other maker I know of, Aviation. Apparently it wasn't exclusive rights.

I knew I'd seen a quite extensive comparison between the Sinn & Breitling models and I found it:

TimeZone : Public Forum Archive » Breitling Navitimer & Sinn 903 H2 ? Photo Comparative Review (modem warning)

I bought my Sinn "Navitmer" a number of years ago mainly because of the price differential. I found an overseas on-line vendor with a killer price - Collectorstime.com (Thank you, Zeetan!)


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## knottys

Old thread i know but one point I don't think anyone touched on is the size. I really like the Navitimer but at a minimum 43mm it looks too big on my small 6.5" wrist. I would have to consider the 903. I would be very happy with both and considering i won't be using it for functionality but rather looks.

k.


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## michael8238

^^^
I too prefer the more classic size of the 903.
In terms of the fit & finish, I don't think the Sinn is any more inferior to the Breitling---both are quite well made yet neither is on par with something like a Rolex.
The feel, however, can be a bit different:
with the evolution throughout the years, Navitimer starts to become 'dressy' in a way---there's a baller (or bling) quality to it.
903 kind of stays true to its original tool watch nature. (That second crown does bother me a bit---the whole watch is already very busy, I really don't need one more element to look at...)


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## drram1966

One vote for the Breitling..better looks IMHO and better, longer heritage and resale value if you ever want to part ways with it.


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## publandlord

michael8238 said:


> .
> 903 kind of stays true to its original tool watch nature. (That second crown does bother me a bit---the whole watch is already very busy, I really don't need one more element to look at...)


The second crown solution is _much _cheaper than the complex, geared bezel-operated slide rule - crown operation is no more complicated than an internal dive bezel - but it does mean for most wearers that it's very difficult if not impossible to operate when the watch is on the wrist. The bezel-operated slide rule is kind ofa Breitling "thing" - having been introduced nearly 80 years ago - so it's not surprising that Sinn went with something more conventional in orde to differentiate the product.


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## RossFraney

Love the history of the two. Breitling being in trouble and having to let the design go then coming back and reclaiming. This being said I would take the breitling every day, it's actually one of my grails!


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