# Cartier denied service



## Watchdisplay

Hello fellow watchfam, I generally do not do posts other than sales corner posts. 
However, I had an interesting yet frustrating situation that I hope anyone with cartier knowledge or cartier service history can chime in on.

This is my second cartier purchase therefore, service procedure and knowledge definitely are not my strong point.

Here's the story:

So about a month ago I purchased a cartier Santos de Cartier medium two tone from a private seller here in the forums that purchased the watch grey market. I generally buy Rolex, AP, and omega from either the AD or from forums dealers that I know and trust.

He had a comparison thread on the TT that he sold me and his stainless steel variant with plenty of photos.

Long story short I've had the watch for approx 2 months. It came from the UK to me here in the US.
Came with inner and outer box, warranty card, manual with AD purchase stamp and hand written signature, brand new deployment unused in original cartier box and stickers, new strap unopened, plastic bezel protector, hang tag, original shopping bag.

Got the watch and immediately registered it on cartier.com and they even offered the extended 7 year international warranty which I didn't ask for.

Fast forward about 3 weeks ago and the watch quit working. No problem right?

Well I request service and wait for a service kit to be delivered and I get nothing for over a week. I finally call them and they say they are out of service kits and I would have had to wait until more came in??? Well how was I supposed to know that... keep in mind this original service request kit is still pending lol.

So the ambassador sends me a label and on the paperwork direct from cartier they instructed me to send the watch without original box and or accessories other than the bracelet and photo copy of the warranty card.

So I send it in and wait about 1.5 weeks and no service update other than me checking tracking that it indeed was received. So I call them and ask for an update very politely. They begin to ask many questions where I purchased the watch and finally after a bunch of back and forth I get a reply that service deemed my watch counterfeit.

Okay I'm floored and so confused. After about 4 days I finally get ahold of someone directly in service customer care calls and I ask if the watch could be further inspected.

Just called them back yesterday and I'm informed that they think the gold is plated due to it being "sightly to dark in hue." Keep in mind I generally only buy solid gold pieces for my collection and I'm pretty knowledgeable about gold etc.

They also informed me that they felt the bracelet had too much "give" there exact words not mine. In addition, they said the movement was not 100% a cartier creation. They would not elaborate If that meant it had been tampered with or it 100% was counterfeit.

They asked if I wanted the watch shipped back to me and said they gladly would ship back if I provided a label.

I have not opened the watch due to Keeping WR and I honestly had no questionable thoughts.

I will update this thread with movement pics once I receive the watch back.

Here are some photos.

One of my questions is has anyone had experience with cartier denying service due to the watch being grey market?




































































































































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## dawalsh13

Please keep us update.


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## Russ1965

If that's a copy, then its a very good copy. 

What a shame.


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## Yamidan

Wow, that sucks. Make sure the Cartier Service Centre provides you with a written statement saying the watch is not genuine and the I'd be contacting the seller asking if they had proof of purchase. Unfortunately, if it's a few owners down the line, you may be out of luck.


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## swissra

You’ve got amazing photography skills! Never had a Cartier nor do I have enough knowledge to comment since I’m mostly in to Omega. You should probably try to get a hold of the boss who runs the service center. It should definitely help this way. Please keep us posted. Thanks.


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## watchyourself

RSC Bangkok pulled this on me with a second hand 14060 Sub. At first I thought I got burned for sure with this counterfeit parts (they said it was Rolex but from another Sub?) accusation. I rushed back to the dealer in the notorious MBK to return the watch.

Dude was clearly upset, much less from the return but from the accusation. After a lot of back and forth, he went ahead and authorized a refund in CASH (his lieutenant took me to the closest bank), but not before I sat there and he called RSC himself to ***** them out.

He was telling me that they always did this with 2nd hand watches because they wanted to encourage people to buy new. After that experience I was inclined to believe him. I was really freaked that I may have lost thousands of dollars, but the refund was super easy at the end of the day, and he definitely called them, because he made sure I watched him dial their line. EDIT** I dialed the number on his phone, so I know it was RSC)

Sorry, not much to do with Cartier, but it makes me wonder if this is par for course on any submissions that service centers for ultra luxury watches receive that don't have a direct line to an AD purchase. I've been wanting a Tank Solo XL myself, and this really turns me off on Cartier now.


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## Watchdisplay

Still waiting for Cartier to return ship the watch back to me. Will be doing a video of me opening the package as well as opening the back of the watch. 


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## Watchdisplay

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## Watchdisplay

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## Watchdisplay

swissra said:


> You've got amazing photography skills! Never had a Cartier nor do I have enough knowledge to comment since I'm mostly in to Omega. You should probably try to get a hold of the boss who runs the service center. It should definitely help this way. Please keep us posted. Thanks.


Thank you kindly. Check out my Instagram for more watch's like rolex, omega, AP, etc.

@Watchdisplay










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## Watchdisplay

Russ1965 said:


> If that's a copy, then its a very good copy.
> 
> What a shame.


I am still convinced it is real. The gold comment by them is debunked right from their website where they state they use a proprietary mix gold in which gives it a darker, more subtle hue next to the steel.

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## swissra

Watchdisplay said:


> Thank you kindly. Check out my Instagram for more watch's like rolex, omega, AP, etc.
> 
> @Watchdisplay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Will do.


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## Okapi001

There is something fishy there. IMHO no respectable watch business would return a counterfeited watch, as that would men assisting in a criminal activity.


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## eddieo396

Okapi001 said:


> There is something fishy there. IMHO no respectable watch business would return a counterfeited watch, as that would men assisting in a criminal activity.


True but why would the company send it back ?


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## Michael Maddan

Watchdisplay...Hello!

To my mind, the only way to REALLY resolve this situation, is to see what the movement looks like...with all due respect: all the images in the World of what the watch looks like outside of the case, do not compel an assurance of what it looks like, inside!

I like to illustrate this point by mentioning Vintage automobiles: anyone who writes a check, for example, for a 1960's Jaguar E-Type Series 1 ( the XKE ) without lifting the bonnet, is quite possibly making a BIG mistake: there's no way to be certain what's inside from just looking at the outside.

Same with watches.

Michael.


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## Watchdisplay

I got this today after asking for a document in hopes of helping me get some money back.

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## JJ312

Wow, crazy. Please keep us updated!


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## Watchdisplay

Michael Maddan said:


> Watchdisplay...Hello!
> 
> To my mind, the only way to REALLY resolve this situation, is to see what the movement looks like...with all due respect: all the images in the World of what the watch looks like outside of the case, do not compel an assurance of what it looks like, inside!
> 
> I like to illustrate this point by mentioning Vintage automobiles: anyone who writes a check, for example, for a 1960's Jaguar E-Type Series 1 ( the XKE ) without lifting the bonnet, is quite possibly making a BIG mistake: there's no way to be certain what's inside from just looking at the outside.
> 
> Same with watches.
> 
> Michael.


Yeap, if you see at the end of my original post I had mentioned I'd be adding movement photos as soon as it came back. Just waiting to have it in my possession again.

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## Watchdisplay

JJ312 said:


> Wow, crazy. Please keep us updated!


Will do, sent this info to the seller for him to reach out to the original grey dealer. I'm hoping we can get this resolved as I'm out a decent amount of money.

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## Sergeant Major

Okapi001 said:


> There is something fishy there. IMHO no respectable watch business would return a counterfeited watch, as that would men assisting in a criminal activity.


Possession of a counterfeit watch is not a crime in the US and a service center has no right to seuze another's property. People living in police states may not be aware of such legal dealings. Had the owner know it was fake and tried to pass it as a genuinely me, there is where problems lie in several nations.


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## lgbalfa

Hopefully you can resolve this very soon.


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## Hamstur

The Cartier purchase stamp on the inner front flap of the booklet would be very hard to counterfeit. If from a boutique, the stamp is branch/city specific and you may be able to contact the branch directly to verify purchase history/detail.


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## Ced Craig

Shaky provenance: Strike 1.
Watch stopped working very very soon after receipt of watch: Strike 2
Cartier itself refuses to service on the basis of it being counterfeit: Strike 3

Get your money back from the seller, post haste. If s/he refuses, follow whatever legal recourse you have. Surely there’s a legal basis to contest the original sale: the watch was sold as a legitimate Cartier and the company says it’s counterfeit.

Then start over. Go to a Cartier AD and buy what you want. Or bail on Cartier and buy another watch you like from an AD.


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## wolfhead

watchyourself said:


> RSC Bangkok pulled this on me with a second hand 14060 Sub. At first I thought I got burned for sure with this counterfeit parts (they said it was Rolex but from another Sub?) accusation. I rushed back to the dealer in the notorious MBK to return the watch.
> 
> Dude was clearly upset, much less from the return but from the accusation. After a lot of back and forth, he went ahead and authorized a refund in CASH (his lieutenant took me to the closest bank), but not before I sat there and he called RSC himself to *** them out.
> 
> He was telling me that they always did this with 2nd hand watches *because they wanted to encourage people to buy new*. After that experience I was inclined to believe him. I was really freaked that I may have lost thousands of dollars, but the refund was super easy at the end of the day, and he definitely called them, because he made sure I watched him dial their line.
> 
> Sorry, not much to do with Cartier, but it makes me wonder if this is par for course on any submissions that service centers for ultra luxury watches receive that don't have a direct line to an AD purchase. I've been wanting a Tank Solo XL myself, and this really turns me off on Cartier now.


I don't think that is plausible. RSC services old watches all the time. They don't care where you buy from, as long as it is a genuine Rolex. That's the purpose of the service center, to service watches.

I suppose you were a tourist in Bangkok, and you hear a random Thai guy *****ing to a random number in Thai language or broken English to convince you the watch is real? I will take with a huge grain of salt. Good thing you get your money back!


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## Ced Craig

Hamstur said:


> The Cartier purchase stamp on the inner front flap of the booklet would be very hard to counterfeit.


Know much about counterfeiting? Just about anything can be counterfeited to near perfection. I'll bet Shenzen has shop after shop where you can get Cartier purchase stamps, Rolex purchase stamps, etc.

What's odd to me with this story is why didn't the OP just go to a quality, high-end watchmaker or Cartier AD and open up the watch as soon as it stopped? He would have known right then and there if it was real or not, right?

Sounds like that's the next step, movement photos. If it turns out the be original, I'll be pretty disappointed in Cartier. Sure is a nice looking watch, though.


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## watchyourself

wolfhead said:


> I don't think that is plausible. RSC services old watches all the time. They don't care where you buy from, as long as it is a genuine Rolex. That's the purpose of the service center, to service watches.
> 
> I suppose you were a tourist in Bangkok, and you hear a random Thai guy *****ing to a random number in Thai language or broken English to convince you the watch is real? I will take with a huge grain of salt. Good thing you get your money back!


I should have mentioned this was on speakerphone, it was NOT a random number (he asked me if I called them first before going there, and to dial them up on his phone while he spoke to them), and my wife was there translating the conversation for me. Context is everything but its my fault for not bringing it up. I considered editing earlier but here we are.

I know a bit more than your average tourist. I worked and lived in BKK for almost a year and met my wife there, and we have a lot of friends/family living there.


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## Watchdisplay

Ced Craig said:


> Know much about counterfeiting? Just about anything can be counterfeited to near perfection. I'll bet Shenzen has shop after shop where you can get Cartier purchase stamps, Rolex purchase stamps, etc.
> 
> What's odd to me with this story is why didn't the OP just go to a quality, high-end watchmaker or Cartier AD and open up the watch as soon as it stopped? He would have known right then and there if it was real or not, right?
> 
> Sounds like that's the next step, movement photos. If it turns out the be original, I'll be pretty disappointed in Cartier. Sure is a nice looking watch, though.


I would have taken it direct to cartier but honestly didn't have doubts at first. So for time sake had cartier provide a label and sent it out. The closest cartier boutique is about an hour drive from me or I would have definitely done that.

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## Balletomane

This is very interesting. I have seen numerous “brand new” Cartier watches come up for auction on eBay in the UK recently. They typically end up selling for around 50% of retail. Most often I see Santos models coming up (including the medium model in steel/gold shown here). I’ve been tempted to buy one, but have been worried about the authenticity. They typically say that the watch is backed by the Cartier warranty, which obviously gives some confidence, but when I’ve asked sellers about provenance I’ve never received a reply. I had assumed that these are grey market pieces (i.e they come via an authorised dealer but are sold under the counter to some third party dealer).

Read carefully what the letter from Cartier says. It doesn’t say that it wasn’t made by Cartier, it says that either it wasn’t made by Cartier, or wasn’t sold by Cartier or an authorised seller. You may have a real Cartier watch, just one that wasn’t sold legitimately as far as Cartier was concerned (and I think you knew the latter from the start anyway).

Are you able to say which authorised dealer stamped the guarantee certificate?

Thanks for posting. I look forward future updates.


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## Watchdisplay

Balletomane said:


> This is very interesting. I have seen numerous "brand new" Cartier watches come up for auction on eBay in the UK recently. They typically end up selling for around 50% of retail. Most often I see Santos models coming up (including the medium model in steel/gold shown here). I've been tempted to buy one, but have been worried about the authenticity. They typically say that the watch is backed by the Cartier warranty, which obviously gives some confidence, but when I've asked sellers about provenance I've never received a reply. I had assumed that these are grey market pieces (i.e they come via an authorised dealer but are sold under the counter to some third party dealer).
> 
> Read carefully what the letter from Cartier says. It doesn't say that it wasn't made by Cartier, it says that either it wasn't made by Cartier, or wasn't sold by Cartier or an authorised seller. You may have a real Cartier watch, just one that wasn't sold legitimately as far as Cartier was concerned (and I think you knew the latter from the start anyway).
> 
> Are you able to say which authorised dealer stamped the guarantee certificate?
> 
> Thanks for posting. I look forward future updates.


Yes the AD stamp is from Hong Kong but serial number indicates the watch was sold in London. Doesn't really ad up and one of the reasons it allowed me to register it bc the serial number is indeed real but not matching the stamp on the booklet or the warranty card.

They more specifically said the movement was not authentic cartier I my last chat.

Here's the the thing that makes me feel more confident the watch is fake .... I offered to pay full price for service and the still denied.

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## dawalsh13

Did you talk to a seller yet? Hope you get your money back without too much trouble.


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## Watchdisplay

I talked to seller several times. He is in touch with the grey dealer he got it from. All in all hopefully I’ll recoup some funds. 


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## Hamstur

Watchdisplay said:


> Yes the AD stamp is from Hong Kong but serial number indicates the watch was sold in London. Doesn't really ad up and one of the reasons it allowed me to register it bc the serial number is indeed real but not matching the stamp on the booklet or the warranty card.
> 
> They more specifically said the movement was not authentic cartier I my last chat.
> 
> Here's the the thing that makes me feel more confident the watch is fake .... I offered to pay full price for service and the still denied.


There's your answer right there. That's what I was meaning by the stamp may be hard to counterfeit. Not that a cheap piece of rubber is hard to make, but when fencing real SNs on a counterfeit they likely don't know where the original came from and are guessing. Cartier customer service is really good from my experience, and can trace SN back to original actual AD. In your case, stamp doesn't match electronic record. If everything matched up, that would be some insanely elaborate operation and the original my have been involved.


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## Watchdisplay

Hamstur said:


> There's your answer right there. That's what I was meaning by the stamp may be hard to counterfeit. Not that a cheap piece of rubber is hard to make, but when fencing real SNs on a counterfeit they likely don't know where the original came from and are guessing. Cartier customer service is really good from my experience, and can trace SN back to original actual AD. In your case, stamp doesn't match electronic record. If everything matched up, that would be some insanely elaborate operation and the original my have been involved.


I'll be honest, from my experience cartier service has been poor. I'd honestly never buy a cartier again given the service experience I've had.

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## Watchdisplay

Still waiting for cartier to send the piece back. They said they were shipping it back like over a week ago. I’ve had to call nearly everyday to get any answers. I even provided them a return label on the 18th and yet the watch still sits there. 


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## Morrisdog

Hopefully you will recoup some funds and I am glad the issue of this being a counterfeit was resolved. 
Just to share my experiences with Cartier. 
I have an older white gold tank americaine (circa early 2000s) which I had bought second hand from a reputable dealer of second hand and vintage watches. I sent it for a service immediately. I went to an AD which sells Cartier. There was no dedicated boutique where I live. The sales person was a bit suspicious but informed that they would send the watch to the Richemont group service centre. They would assess the watch and if they felt it was fake would then return it to me.. fortunately for me it turned out to be genuine but with a few surface scratches which were all buffed out during the service . That was about five years ago and the watch remains in good working order and gets a lot of use. It’s has unfortunately required a few surface scratches but are they not so noticeable and mine so I am not too bothered by them.


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## Johann23

Watchdisplay said:


> I'll be honest, from my experience cartier service has been poor. I'd honestly never buy a cartier again given the service experience I've had.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As much as it sucks to buy a fake watch like you did, I don't think it's fair to gauge your Cartier service experience based on you sending them a fake watch. I'm sure they have lots of bigger priorities than servicing fake pieces.

Just buy a Cartier from an AD. Problem solved.


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## Johann23

Watchdisplay said:


> I'll be honest, from my experience cartier service has been poor. I'd honestly never buy a cartier again given the service experience I've had.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As much as it sucks to buy a fake watch like you did, I don't think it's fair to gauge your Cartier service experience based on you sending them a fake watch. I'm sure they have lots of bigger priorities than servicing fake pieces.

Just buy a Cartier from an AD. Problem solved.


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## Roningrad

Interesting. I always thought ADs would definitely confiscate the counterfeit item.


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## Watchbreath

Roningrad said:


> Interesting. I always thought ADs would definitely confiscate the counterfeit item.


Why would you think that?


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## steinercat

Watchbreath said:


> Why would you think that?


Yeah, can't imagine the sh*tstorm ADs would have to deal with if they went around confiscating fakes.


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## Okapi001

EU Customs regularly confiscates counterfeited products, sent by mail. And they don't target only Rolex and Omega and Gucci, but also Seiko.

And apparently US Customs too.








New Seiko from Gnomon seized by customs?


Hi Guys, I've run in to a customs problem and was hoping you guys could chime in. I'm posting here because I'm hoping this is where people most experienced in buying Seiko will be hanging out! I have an incoming Seiko Tuna - very excited! It was shipped out in record time by Gnomon via DHL...




www.watchuseek.com






__
https://www.reddit.com/r/Seiko/comments/9bk88p


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## Watchdisplay

I got the cartier back today from cartier service and 100% fake after I opened it up.

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## watchyourself

Watchdisplay said:


> I got the cartier back today from cartier service and 100% fake after I opened it up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Bad news, sorry to hear about it.


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## Okapi001

I wonder how will the seller react.


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## artus

Gutted for you fella hope there is some recourse for you


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## jp.vegas

What a shame. Hopefully you can resolve this amicably with the seller. 

On another note, the Santos has been one of my all time favorite designs for what feels like forever.


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## Johann23

Watchdisplay said:


> I got the cartier back today from cartier service and 100% fake after I opened it up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's a bummer but at least you know now.


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## neverover

Wow.. can we talk about how good the fake qualities are? I’m beginning to think that the watch can be manufactured in China and then sent to Switzerland for movement setting. It is no secret that luxury designer brands do their 90% manufacturing process in China, then sent the goods to Italy to be hot stamped with their brand and “Made in Italy”. I need to check again how much % of work need to be done in Switzerland in order for the watch to be considered as Swiss made. Although they can still argue that the case, dial, and bracelet only worth $100; while the movement, light polishing, QC worth $1000 of work. But man, a fake watch this nice can be just a tip of the iceberg.


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## willydribble

the tip of the iceberg is not how good it is but the fact that many of these have been sold to people that have paid thousands of pounds thinking they are genuine cartier with real serial numbers and even online warranty extensions, and yes they are so good its very hard to tell. if the op had purchased this for $500 knowing it was a fake there would be no problem , there is going to be many buyers that will find out the hard way, some may never know but either way its a big problem for watch buyers with this particular version which seems to be near perfect even to the trained eye


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## Okapi001

It's in fact nothing new that the movement is the only thing one can use to reliably recognize a good counterfeited watch. And it's getting harder even with the movement in sight.


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## Watchdisplay

Okapi001 said:


> It's in fact nothing new that the movement is the only thing one can use to reliably recognize a good counterfeited watch. And it's getting harder even with the movement in sight.


Your correct that it's nothing new that the movement is the only thing throwing the watch off but you have to rem this isn't an easy watch to fake. Most of the super clones are rolex which in all honesty isn't a very complex. Every super clone rolex I've seen in person I've been able to find at least one exterior aspect to deem it counterfeit. This santos, not one flaw on the outside including the quick release bracelet and smart link link removal system.

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## Ced Craig

Chinese manufacturers can counterfeit almost anything to almost any level of quality. They could easily make a Santos where two owners with the same serial number would have to assemble a team of the best watchmakers in the world to tell the real from fake. The only question is pricepoint. There’s not enough profit in such a watch to justify doing that.

Interesting though, that the counterfeiters are branching out beyond Rolex with this quality standard. In one sense, Cartier must feel they’ve got a hit on their hand if super quality counterfeiters are making their watches. 

I’m curious how many people around the world have counterfeit watches and believe they have the real thing. If you unwittingly bought a quality counterfeit it would be maybe 5 years before you’d find out, when you bring the watch in for regular service, or longer if you’re stretching out the maintenance and haven’t had any problems. By then the company that sold you the watch will surely be long gone and you’re out thousands.


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## mtnslyr

Wow, this is a crazy story. Thanks for keeping us updated on everything. I hope you get your refund. This level of detail in a fake is definitely made to fool a buyer looking for the real thing. Someone who's just looking to have some fun with a replica is not looking into the details such as the gold hallmark on side of a bezel.


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## Okapi001

Don't worry, there is plenty of profit. Luxury brands like Cartier have such a markup that it pays to make these perfect counterfeits, if you sell them as originals. The only problem (for counterfeiters) are movements. These are usually too expensive to replicate exactly.

But look at the Omega 8800 lookalike movement in this counterfeited watch (start at 6:30).





Or this Patek. Movement starts at 7:30. You really have to know what to look for - the free sprung balance wheel - to know it is a fake.


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## Okapi001

mtnslyr said:


> Wow, this is a crazy story. Thanks for keeping us updated on everything. I hope you get your refund. This level of detail in a fake is definitely made to fool a buyer looking for the real thing. Someone who's just looking to have some fun with a replica is not looking into the details such as the gold hallmark on side of a bezel.


It would be interesting to know if it is really gold, and if the fake hallmark is the same as on the original.

There is also a possibility to make two watches out of one original. For one you use the original case, box and papers, as a proof of authenticity, but put a faked movement in it. For the other, you use a counterfeited case and put the original movement inside, and use it as a proof of authenticity.


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## Pongster

wolfhead said:


> I don't think that is plausible. RSC services old watches all the time. They don't care where you buy from, as long as it is a genuine Rolex. That's the purpose of the service center, to service watches.
> 
> I suppose you were a tourist in Bangkok, and you hear a random Thai guy *****ing to a random number in Thai language or broken English to convince you the watch is real? I will take with a huge grain of salt. Good thing you get your money back!


i tend to agree. The RSC is not always connected to an AD.


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## Pongster

Watchdisplay said:


> I got the cartier back today from cartier service and 100% fake after I opened it up.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


wow. sorry to hear. Was a good exterior fake. Could have fooled me. Hope you get your money back.


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## Pongster

Ced Craig said:


> Chinese manufacturers can counterfeit almost anything to almost any level of quality. They could easily make a Santos where two owners with the same serial number would have to assemble a team of the best watchmakers in the world to tell the real from fake. The only question is pricepoint. There's not enough profit in such a watch to justify doing that.
> 
> Interesting though, that the counterfeiters are branching out beyond Rolex with this quality standard. In one sense, Cartier must feel they've got a hit on their hand if super quality counterfeiters are making their watches.
> 
> I'm curious how many people around the world have counterfeit watches and believe they have the real thing. If you unwittingly bought a quality counterfeit it would be maybe 5 years before you'd find out, when you bring the watch in for regular service, or longer if you're stretching out the maintenance and haven't had any problems. By then the company that sold you the watch will surely be long gone and you're out thousands.


because of the proliferation of these fakes, i have resorted to these two rules when not buying from an AD/boutique/manufacturer:

1. Full PM and/or
2. Highly complicated movement

my thinking: nobody would use real PM in a full PM piece. And not cost effective to fake a complicated movement (perpetual calendar or minute repeater or rattrapante or foudroyante or retour en vol).

if they used real gold for OP's TT cartier, is faking a full PM piece a possibility in the future?


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## Pongster

Okapi001 said:


> It would be interesting to know if it is really gold, and if the fake hallmark is the same as on the original.
> 
> There is also a possibility to make two watches out of one original. For one you use the original case, box and papers, as a proof of authenticity, but put a faked movement in it. For the other, you use a counterfeited case and put the original movement inside, and use it as a proof of authenticity.


is this business model scalable? It means buying several watches from an AD.

i suppose since cartier getting prominence again recently,worth the effort for some unscrupulous persons?

cartier models are not hard to find though. Easy to buy from ADs. I got all of mine from our local AD.


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## nonfatproduct

Wow, what a story. Like others here I'm kinda surprised that Cartier was willing to return the watch and I'm curious what happens with the situation from here on out. Please keep us updated OP as you go through the process of trying to get the dealer who sold you this piece to make it right.

Going back to the first post it appears that the watch was purchased here on the forums from a private seller. Now I'm even more curious as to how this turns out. is there any recourse for the seller or the buyer? If the buyer paid with a credit card surely they will issue a chargeback? or since it was a used item purchase I believe only certain companies will protect the buyer. Keep us updated please.


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## bigclive2011

If it was that good then the seller was probably unaware as well unless he bought it from an AD to start with you may end up with a chain of unsuspecting owners.

Wonder how much this happens nowadays with all the “Super fakes” in circulation.


----------



## casper461

Hi OP when did you take the first pictures you posted


----------



## Johann23

bigclive2011 said:


> If it was that good then the seller was probably unaware as well unless he bought it from an AD to start with you may end up with a chain of unsuspecting owners.
> 
> Wonder how much this happens nowadays with all the "Super fakes" in circulation.


I know. These are crazy good replicas today. I just buy from AD's these days. There's accountability there and some level of trust. It's Worth the higher cost of buying there to me.


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## Okapi001

For the most part, good look at the movement is enough to recognize the fake.

More problematic are various vintage collector's pieces, where movement may be original, but not the dial or hands or even case.


----------



## mtnslyr

Pongster said:


> because of the proliferation of these fakes, i have resorted to these two rules when not buying from an AD/boutique/manufacturer:
> 
> 1. Full PM and/or


Hey, so how do you test for a PM? I guess heft would be a clue if it comes with gold bracelet, but what if it's just a gold watch with leather strap.


----------



## Pongster

mtnslyr said:


> Hey, so how do you test for a PM? I guess heft would be a clue if it comes with gold bracelet, but what if it's just a gold watch with leather strap.


if it's not apparent, i send to a jeweler or to an authorized service center to check or have it serviced (if not brand new). My thinking, it will be denied service if counterfeit. And a jeweler would have a way of knowing if just plated or not.


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## Watchdisplay

Sent back for refund, now just playing the waiting game. 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Pongster

Watchdisplay said:


> Sent back for refund, now just playing the waiting game.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


hope you dont wait long.

cartier is indeed one of the most frequently faked brands.


----------



## Mark_NJ

Following this with interest. I think I remember the original post on this watch prior to your purchasing it. I almost did a deal with him for the same watch and he seemed like a totally legit person. Glad to hear that he, as of now, is being a stand up guy and returning your funds. I hope he is able to then go back to his source and get his money back as well. Keep us posted and good luck.


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## ___steve______

Sorry to hear this happened to you. Wishing you the best outcome with your dealer.


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## omega1300

Was just linked to this thread - what a well made fake and unfortunate situation! Hope it all turns out ok! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ethanysc

I generally ask the seller for the original receipt if possible, but this is definitely an awful experience. Hope you got the refund!


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## Watchdisplay

Got the refund and the seller got refunded on his as well from the original greymarket dealer. 

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## Ced Craig

Watchdisplay said:


> Got the refund and the seller got refunded on his as well from the original greymarket dealer.


Fantastic! What an incredible tale.


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## drdas007

Wow, that is great news!


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## VintageVagabound

To clear up why they (or any manufacturer) doesn’t confiscate fake watches it’s because they would need to seize private property by order of a judge or legal body. It’s a civil matter although they could always refer you to a law enforcement entity if they thought you were a producer or wholesaler of the fake watches. No service center is going to send their watchmaker to court to testify on the legitimacy of a watch in order to seize it. More often than not the punishment is harsh enough when they inform the person seeking service that the watch is fake.


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## cb1111

Watchdisplay said:


> Got the refund and the seller got refunded on his as well from the original greymarket dealer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


There is something not quite kosher going on here. The OP started this thread with a long post that began with "here is the story" and "So".

Both of those are indicators of deception.

After a couple of posts he closes with "got the refund snd the seller got refunded as well" with no further explanation.

We know what the story is, but we don't know what really happened.


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## Okapi001

OP bought a watch, Cartier service identified it as a counterfeited watch, OP got a refund. What more do you want to know? The address of the counterfeiter?


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## dbostedo

Okapi001 said:


> OP bought a watch, Cartier service identified it as a counterfeited watch, OP got a refund. What more do you want to know? The address of the counterfeiter?


One more detail... The seller who sold the OP the watch also got refunded from the grey market dealer he/she bought it from too. I think that's all of it.


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## TraserH3

Watchdisplay said:


> Got the refund and the seller got refunded on his as well from the original greymarket dealer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


Question is how did the fake get into the grey market? Grey dealer buy from AD and other Grey dealers, so was it the case of an dishonest grey dealer selling to another grey dealer?


----------



## Watchdisplay

cb1111 said:


> There is something not quite kosher going on here. The OP started this thread with a long post that began with "here is the story" and "So".
> 
> Both of those are indicators of deception.
> 
> After a couple of posts he closes with "got the refund snd the seller got refunded as well" with no further explanation.
> 
> We know what the story is, but we don't know what really happened.


I unfortunately do not know the dealer that my seller got the watch from. The seller also bought the all steel version for himself. You can find his thread discussing the differences between the references here on the forums. I found out mine was fake first which made him suspicious of his watch. Both watches were deemed counterfeit by Cartier and I confirmed mine by opening it myself. The seller reached out to the grey market dealer in London whom I do not know and asked for a full refund. The dealer asked for proof and both the watches back. Once both watches were received the grey market dealer refunded both purchases in full. Check my Instagram @Watchdisplay .... I am 100% kosher....just didn't realize you wanted each and every detail.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## J Fix

Glad your ordeal is over. Crazy how good that watch looked. Following you on Instagram now.


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## f3dbca

I’ve had my eye on a new Santos for a while, will definitely be going to an AD to pick one up when the time comes. Am always wondering about some of the ‘bargains’ you see on eBay/chrono/etc, but definitely not worth the risk.


----------



## montelatici

I took in a well worn late 70s early 80s SS Santos 29x40 automatic as partial trade on a 5 figure JLC. I am starting to worry. There appear to be more fake Cartiers than I thought.


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## Bswcollection

If he’s a good dealer he will make it right 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bswcollection

Watchdisplay said:


> Got the refund and the seller got refunded on his as well from the original greymarket dealer.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


That's a great win-win for everyone!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bswcollection

VintageVagabound said:


> To clear up why they (or any manufacturer) doesn't confiscate fake watches it's because they would need to seize private property by order of a judge or legal body. It's a civil matter although they could always refer you to a law enforcement entity if they thought you were a producer or wholesaler of the fake watches. No service center is going to send their watchmaker to court to testify on the legitimacy of a watch in order to seize it. More often than not the punishment is harsh enough when they inform the person seeking service that the watch is fake.


Never knew that very informative

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## thechancellor

Wow almost just bought this watch on ebay to save a G. But not going to just go to the AD and grab it. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## LosAngelesTimer

E


thechancellor said:


> Wow almost just bought this watch on ebay to save a G. But not going to just go to the AD and grab it. Thanks for sharing.


You're saying the seller relisted a known fake?


----------



## thechancellor

LosAngelesTimer said:


> E
> 
> You're saying the seller relisted a known fake?


No not the same exact watch.


----------



## Olisuds

Just got through reading this thread. How did the grey market dealer get a fake? Shouldn’t some one call them out in case they’re selling other fakes?


----------



## Watchbreath

Olisuds said:


> Just got through reading this thread. How did the grey market dealer get a fake? Shouldn't some one call them out in case they're selling other fakes?


Manure happens.


----------



## BGBC

Geez, a great cautionary tale


----------



## Olisuds

Yeah very worrying. Really think the grey market dealer needs to be called out to avoid others getting stung with fakes.


----------



## willydribble

this is not just linked with the op grey dealer, these watches have been doing the rounds lately especially on ebay(santos and balion bleu) and anyone that has purchased a cartier for a seemingly good price from anywhere other than an authorised dealer should get the watch checked and the back removed before its too late especially if it has the canton road dealer stamp ,and yes they all can be registered on the cartier website so dont let that fool you. the op pictures prove it is impossible to tell without removing the case back


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## Olisuds

Now I’m even more worried. I bought my Santos Galbee XL on the grey market 10 years ago. Never suspected it of being fake but after reading this it’s got me thinking.


----------



## willydribble

things have moved on a fair bit in 10 years, these days it can be nigh on impossible to tell with the naked eye as proven by the thread .yours must be due a service 🤑


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## Olisuds

willydribble said:


> things have moved on a fair bit in 10 years, these days it can be nigh on impossible to tell with the naked eye as proven by the thread .yours must be due a service ?


Yeah no kidding, I've just noticed second hand isn't stopping when you pull crown out to second position. Combined with this post, I've got a bit worried


----------



## Ced Craig

Olisuds said:


> Now I'm even more worried. I bought my Santos Galbee XL on the grey market 10 years ago. Never suspected it of being fake but after reading this it's got me thinking.


I think you're probably ok, though as Willy said, it's probably time for a service, which hopefully will not become another thread.

Seems like both the quality of fakes and the number of watches faked has increased dramatically in the last 3-5 years, so an older watch should be fine.


----------



## thechancellor

So I went a head and bought the same 2 tone Santos. I did buy it on ebay like I have done other watches, cars etc...
( only trusted sellers with lots of feed back and at 100% ) I also called the Cartier boutique in Miami though so they could confirm they were the original seller of the watch.

Your watch looks so real its hard for me to believe it is fake. The movement is going to be the only other way to tell unless you start tiring to scrape off the gold on the bezel. My question is this...

When you scanned the QR code on the Cartier website did you get a confirmation email that it was registered? How would a fake be able to register itself. The serial number and QR code would have to match exactly for this to work for a fake watch on there site?


----------



## icarus-

Hello all, 

So I purchased a all steel Cartier Santos last week. And it ALSO was an excellent counterfeit. Thanks for this thread as it helped me figure it out. 

I bought it on Ebay, but for some reason it did not go through their authentication program (I will not buy a watch with out that now). Pictures looked great. Came with the box and papers, and the seller was reputable. 

First red flag. The shipping from address did not match the address of the person in ebay on his/her account. OK, fishy but maybe they moved I thought? 
Second red flag, they said the dropped it off but it took 4 days before USPS system had it as trackable. OK, it's the holidays and they are slammed... might just be that I thought. 

So before it arrived I knew I was going to inspect it well. I had handled one at the AD so I knew how it felt and looked- so I thought. I had my loupe ready and looked up dozens of photos of the MC1847 movement online for reference. 

Watch arrives. It looks PERFECT. I relax, thank goodness. I inspect it all, perfect dial printing, surfaces look good. And the fine details on the bracelet all look as they should (which I thought would be very difficult to copy the tiny details of the easy link system). So far so good, loving the watch. 

Next I open up the case back... 

As soon as I do I see that the gasket is a different style then I have seen online. Movement at first glance looks ok, signed Cartier. But looking at it for 3 seconds you notice it does not have a full balance bridge. Look closer and the design is not at all the same as the MC1847. Finishing is a little lower quality and the whole thing is just off. F. 

Do some more google searching and find this thread. The movement in mine was the same one the OP's watch had. 

Guys, this fake was outstanding. Scary good. Unless you opened it up, or had a massive collection of Santos watches- I don't think anyone would be able to detect it as being a fraud. It was the best fake I had ever seen. I've bought dozens of watches on ebay and the forum, and have not run into a fake yet- I thought I had a good eye... but man, this is next level. Clearly someone has a high end operation set up to make these things. 


I think my new Santos is gonna be from the AD. I just don't want to deal with the risk. Even though it's gonna cost a premium. Worth it. 

Be careful out there friends. and ALWAYS check the movement.


----------



## Olisuds

icarus- said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So I purchased a all steel Cartier Santos last week. And it ALSO was an excellent counterfeit. Thanks for this thread as it helped me figure it out.
> 
> I bought it on Ebay, but for some reason it did not go through their authentication program (I will not buy a watch with out that now). Pictures looked great. Came with the box and papers, and the seller was reputable.
> 
> First red flag. The shipping from address did not match the address of the person in ebay on his/her account. OK, fishy but maybe they moved I thought?
> Second red flag, they said the dropped it off but it took 4 days before USPS system had it as trackable. OK, it's the holidays and they are slammed... might just be that I thought.
> 
> So before it arrived I knew I was going to inspect it well. I had handled one at the AD so I knew how it felt and looked- so I thought. I had my loupe ready and looked up dozens of photos of the MC1847 movement online for reference.
> 
> Watch arrives. It looks PERFECT. I relax, thank goodness. I inspect it all, perfect dial printing, surfaces look good. And the fine details on the bracelet all look as they should (which I thought would be very difficult to copy the tiny details of the easy link system). So far so good, loving the watch.
> 
> Next I open up the case back...
> 
> As soon as I do I see that the gasket is a different style then I have seen online. Movement at first glance looks ok, signed Cartier. But looking at it for 3 seconds you notice it does not have a full balance bridge. Look closer and the design is not at all the same as the MC1847. Finishing is a little lower quality and the whole thing is just off. F.
> 
> Do some more google searching and find this thread. The movement in mine was the same one the OP's watch had.
> 
> Guys, this fake was outstanding. Scary good. Unless you opened it up, or had a massive collection of Santos watches- I don't think anyone would be able to detect it as being a fraud. It was the best fake I had ever seen. I've bought dozens of watches on ebay and the forum, and have not run into a fake yet- I thought I had a good eye... but man, this is next level. Clearly someone has a high end operation set up to make these things.
> 
> I think my new Santos is gonna be from the AD. I just don't want to deal with the risk. Even though it's gonna cost a premium. Worth it.
> 
> Be careful out there friends. and ALWAYS check the movement.


Got any pics of yours? Would be interested to see how good we're talking! Sounds like you know your stuff so if you found it hard to detect, then most people (myself included) would have no chance. I was thinking about upgrading my Santos but now I'd only buy from the AD to be safe.


----------



## thechancellor

icarus- said:


> Hello all,
> 
> So I purchased a all steel Cartier Santos last week. And it ALSO was an excellent counterfeit. Thanks for this thread as it helped me figure it out.
> 
> I bought it on Ebay, but for some reason it did not go through their authentication program (I will not buy a watch with out that now). Pictures looked great. Came with the box and papers, and the seller was reputable.
> 
> First red flag. The shipping from address did not match the address of the person in ebay on his/her account. OK, fishy but maybe they moved I thought?
> Second red flag, they said the dropped it off but it took 4 days before USPS system had it as trackable. OK, it's the holidays and they are slammed... might just be that I thought.
> 
> So before it arrived I knew I was going to inspect it well. I had handled one at the AD so I knew how it felt and looked- so I thought. I had my loupe ready and looked up dozens of photos of the MC1847 movement online for reference.
> 
> Watch arrives. It looks PERFECT. I relax, thank goodness. I inspect it all, perfect dial printing, surfaces look good. And the fine details on the bracelet all look as they should (which I thought would be very difficult to copy the tiny details of the easy link system). So far so good, loving the watch.
> 
> Next I open up the case back...
> 
> As soon as I do I see that the gasket is a different style then I have seen online. Movement at first glance looks ok, signed Cartier. But looking at it for 3 seconds you notice it does not have a full balance bridge. Look closer and the design is not at all the same as the MC1847. Finishing is a little lower quality and the whole thing is just off. F.
> 
> Do some more google searching and find this thread. The movement in mine was the same one the OP's watch had.
> 
> Guys, this fake was outstanding. Scary good. Unless you opened it up, or had a massive collection of Santos watches- I don't think anyone would be able to detect it as being a fraud. It was the best fake I had ever seen. I've bought dozens of watches on ebay and the forum, and have not run into a fake yet- I thought I had a good eye... but man, this is next level. Clearly someone has a high end operation set up to make these things.
> 
> I think my new Santos is gonna be from the AD. I just don't want to deal with the risk. Even though it's gonna cost a premium. Worth it.
> 
> Be careful out there friends. and ALWAYS check the movement.


Thanks for the feed back. I also bought mine on ebay and it did go through the ebay authentication process. They do open the case back and check the movement so I should be ok? Im still skeptical though being that these fakes are so good.


----------



## icarus-

thechancellor said:


> Thanks for the feed back. I also bought mine on ebay and it did go through the ebay authentication process. But do they open up the watch back to check its real? Im still skeptical though being that these fakes are so good.


 I do not know, but I would assume they do since they are certifying that these are real. If they don't, that would really throw the value of that out the window to me.


----------



## thechancellor

icarus- said:


> I do not know, but I would assume they do since they are certifying that these are real. If they don't, that would really throw the value of that out the window to me.


I agree. I just checked and they do open the case to check the movement.


----------



## Okapi001

thechancellor said:


> I agree. I just checked and they do open the case to check the movement.


It depends how good they looked at it. I would not be 100% sure they did their job OK, and would check myself, or at the AD.


----------



## Okapi001

Any pics of those counterfeited movements? Should be interesting to compare with the original.


----------



## icarus-

Sorry it's a tad out of focus... but you can see the center rotor is missing a red jewel in the center. The balance is a cock and not a bridge. The regulator engraving is massive. And the gasket is wrong (it's flat and broad in the real santos and goes around the screw holes if I remember right. The counterweight/rotor text finishing and text is roughly accurate, which could trick people at a glance.


----------



## china

This thread really makes me worried. The Santos for sure is not the easiest watch to fake, especially the bracelet is really a special design - something like the oyster bracelet is a lot easier to fake. Many companies nowadays have their bracelets and cases made in China and the movement manufacturing and final assembly takes place in Switzerland. Could it be that somehow the original parts get to the fake manufacturers?

I've bought mine used too, but I bought it locally and it had a local AD paperwork with it. I could also register mine for the extended warranty at Cartier website. Can you do that with a fake one?


----------



## icarus-

china said:


> This thread really makes me worried. The Santos for sure is not the easiest watch to fake, especially the bracelet is really a special design - something like the oyster bracelet is a lot easier to fake. Many companies nowadays have their bracelets and cases made in China and the movement manufacturing and final assembly takes place in Switzerland. Could it be that somehow the original parts get to the fake manufacturers?
> 
> I've bought mine used too, but I bought it locally and it had a local AD paperwork with it. I could also register mine for the extended warranty at Cartier website. Can you do that with a fake one?


Seems like the OP WAS able to register his and it turned out to be fake. How that works, I have no idea. Perhaps they spoofed a real serial number and the orignal poster happened to apply for the extended warranty before the real one ?

I am with you, I felt somewhat confident with this watch assuming that the bracelet would be so difficult to fake that it would be obvious if it was not OEM. I can tell ya, handling my fake and a real one at the AD a few days apart-- it was impossible to tell the different. MAYBE if you had them side by side. The pins were _maybe_ e slightly coarser when you moved them in and out on the easy link, but that was very subtle.

This has to be one of the most difficult to produce bracelets out there, I can't think of many with as many moving parts. - and the fake was flawless.


----------



## thechancellor

I'm going to open up the case and double check mine. Just waiting on a new watch kit as mine was lost in a move recently. I will let you guys know.


----------



## [BOBO]

thechancellor said:


> I'm going to open up the case and double check mine. Just waiting on a new watch kit as mine was lost in a move recently. I will let you guys know.


Schrodinger's Santos...
As long as you don't look, it's genuine. If you open it, it might be fake.

I don't think the bracelet is that hard to make. Harder than most, but there's a lot of money to be made in trying...
"Best" case (if there is such a thing), the bracelets were bought from the same place Cartier get theirs and such leak can be plugged. Worst case, there's a factory making these bracelets along side the cases and there might be thousands of them out there.

The serial number is a bit of a mystery. Did anyone try the same number twice? Glitch?

This really sucks.


----------



## icarus-

"Schrodinger's Santos..."

LOL!
A-MAIZING

You might be right. I was just considering the tight tolerances of the easy link buttons. That is hard to pull off. The rest of the bracelet is not that complex I suppose. But like you say, it could even be the same factory producing part of these fakes on the side/ Depending on where Cartier sources them.


----------



## thechancellor

[BOBO] said:


> Schrodinger's Santos...
> As long as you don't look, it's genuine. If you open it, it might be fake.
> 
> I don't think the bracelet is that hard to make. Harder than most, but there's a lot of money to be made in trying...
> "Best" case (if there is such a thing), the bracelets were bought from the same place Cartier get theirs and such leak can be plugged. Worst case, there's a factory making these bracelets along side the cases and there might be thousands of them out there.
> 
> The serial number is a bit of a mystery. Did anyone try the same number twice? Glitch?
> 
> This really sucks.


Ha I see what your saying but I am checking either way. I will be honest.....I used to wear fake watches 20 years ago dreaming of the day I could afford real luxury watches. I haven't worn a fake is decades and I don't plan to go backwards. I only want what I pay for and would never wear a fake again. I also don't want to support these counterfeits as well.


----------



## Newnice

Thanks for sharing this informative story. Sharing with this level of detail helps stamp out counterfeiting by making buyers beware. Also, even customs officers and law enforcement use Google and I have no doubt they will benefit from the information you provided.

But I also agree the level of fakes coming from China is incredible. I have seen Rolex Daytonas from China that are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, including using the same stainless steel for the case and band, and customizing a genuine swiss-made movement to look and feel nearly identica, with that same precision feel and silky smoothness. They cost about $1500 and it is a watch I would be proud to own and wear in the imaginary world where Rolex did not exist and I didn't know this was a fake. The same seller provided the full kit: warranty card, owners manual, hang tags, stickers, box, boutique bag, brochure, everything. All fake, and all indistinguishable from the real thing.

One has to wonder, how many gray market watches are counterfeit? What will that do to prices and watch values?

And when will the OEMs start using unique serial numbers with full registering and tracking of owners to protect the investments of their customers?


----------



## icarus-

THIS: How is this NOT standard practice? I never understood that, one serial number, company database. tracked 1:1. 
"And when will the OEMs start using unique serial numbers with full registering and tracking of owners to protect the investments of their customers?"


----------



## thechancellor

Hey Guys so I opened mine up and its 100% authentic. I checked several different points on the movement and they all match up. I am wondering what the dirt spots are on the outsider side of the movement though. Might be some water damage that thankfully did not get past the rubber gasket. Either way the watch works perfect and it wont be seeing any water on my end. If I did it again I would just buy new next time for this level of watch. Its not worth saving 1K on the used market.


----------



## icarus-

Looks fantastic, and agree- that is the real deal. 

Question, is the gasket in the photo the only one? Or is their a wider flat gasket as well?


----------



## thechancellor

icarus- said:


> Looks fantastic, and agree- that is the real deal.
> 
> Question, is the gasket in the photo the only one? Or is their a wider flat gasket as well?


Yes that is the only one and it seems it did its job. There is no gasket on the case back.


----------



## Ced Craig

Bottom line: modern high quality counterfeits, Santos or Rolex or whatever, are nearly indistinguishable from authentic watches. 

I not a big buy/sell/trade/grey market person so I find these threads entertaining and informative, but I’m mystified why people would spend so much money on items that very easily could be fake and more and more often are. Saving a few grand and then dealing with the hassles just isn’t worth it for me.

Seems like every single ”hey is this fake” thread turns out that the watch is fake.


----------



## icarus-

Ced Craig said:


> Bottom line: modern high quality counterfeits, Santos or Rolex or whatever, are nearly indistinguishable from authentic watches.
> 
> I not a big buy/sell/trade/grey market person so I find these threads entertaining and informative, but I'm mystified why people would spend so much money on items that very easily could be fake and more and more often are. Saving a few grand and then dealing with the hassles just isn't worth it for me.
> 
> Seems like every single "hey is this fake" thread turns out that the watch is fake.


Sure, and absolutely you need to be careful. And you have to decide if the risk is worth the savings. But I would not discount the savings either. 
Retail puts the santos at 6800 bucks with tax. On ebay you can get authentic ones on the used market for 4-5k. And now that they have their authentic guarantee, one can be a lot safer (mine was not sold through that program, but I will not buy on ebay with out that process now).

I guess what I mean is, it's not mystifying to me why people would want to save money, in this example to save TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS to buy something used. That's a massive savings. If you have the eye and ability to inspect a watch and have safeguards to get your money back (in this case, I got a full refund of course as Ebay has good protections) you can save some real money. I've bought and sold many watched and have made money every time I flip a watch due to being able to buy used. My goal is not to turn a profit, I just like watches, but it is nice to be able to try many watches with out losing my shirt.

However I agree, if you want zero risk and zero hassle, and don't plan to sell often... buying direct is wonderful.


----------



## olske59

Watchdisplay said:


> Hello fellow watchfam, I generally do not do posts other than sales corner posts.
> However, I had an interesting yet frustrating situation that I hope anyone with cartier knowledge or cartier service history can chime in on.
> 
> This is my second cartier purchase therefore, service procedure and knowledge definitely are not my strong point.
> 
> They also informed me that they felt the bracelet had too much "give" there exact words not mine. In addition, they said the movement was not 100% a cartier creation. They would not elaborate If that meant it had been tampered with or it 100% was counterfeit.


If that is a fake, I consider myself fooled - best one I ever saw. of course, who knows what is inside - that's key information.


----------



## Shmockiebaby

Just a comment on a couple of the earlier posts on counterfeit and content laws.

1) Great post already written on why the AD or svc ctr does not confiscate - only gov't (ie Customs) can do that. You may hear about a credit card being taken away and cut up sometimes - that is different, it's in your credit agreement, and the card belongs to the company, not to you.

2) The idea that "many companies have the parts made in China and shipped over to Switzerland for final assembly". Umm, no they don't. Some suppliers may be very diversely located, but most manufacturers want a short lead in the days of just in time (JIT) inventory and manufacturing. I went thru a very similar allegation when I was in the car business - "both aftermarket and OEM replacement fenders are all stamped in China/Taiwan/Indonesia/whatever, and just shipped over here". No they're not. The copyists need a certain volume level, then they tool up. The aftermarket are made in China, which is why they don't fit. In the guitar world, there's this crazy idea that the counterfeit Gibson Les Pauls from China are just real Gibsons, diverted from their production. No they're not, they look as fake as ever when examined. Sorry, that's all BS.

3) There are content laws in most 1st world countries that determine how much of an item can be made in a country before it can be stamped "Made in USA" or wherever. Sure, counterfeiters will fake these markings. Some will play games with terminology, like MAcy's when I bought my "Italian leather sofa", and out of warranty the wood broke, and it was marked "Made in China". But the "leather was sourced from Italy". I called local news, Macy's HQ, raised hell (I'd already tossed the old couch!). They gave me some money and fixed the broken couch. But I was scammed, but legally. The wording on the ad was legal (I had the ad in the file with the paperwork and guarantee). Meantime, years ago I had 500 improperly marked promotional clocks siezed at port of Long Beach once because they were not marked properly. It was not chepa to have them all disassembled and the face stamped with "Made in Japan", by a vendor, in a secure Customs warehouse location. That sucked.

Just some perspective on the China thing. It's not what everyone says it is. And BTW, a lot of fake watches come frm Eastern Europe now, too. A LOT.


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## montelatici

It is interesting that any service center would knowingly send a counterfeit watch across national borders where customs agents could, in fact, seize and confiscate the watch as a counterfeit. Maybe the chance of them getting caught shipping counterfeit merchandise by U.S. or E.U. customs is so low that it is worth the risk to avoid getting angry letters or a possible lawsuit from the owner who sent the counterfeit watch in the first place.


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## Watchdisplay

thechancellor said:


> So I went a head and bought the same 2 tone Santos. I did buy it on ebay like I have done other watches, cars etc...
> ( only trusted sellers with lots of feed back and at 100% ) I also called the Cartier boutique in Miami though so they could confirm they were the original seller of the watch.
> 
> Your watch looks so real its hard for me to believe it is fake. The movement is going to be the only other way to tell unless you start tiring to scrape off the gold on the bezel. My question is this...
> 
> When you scanned the QR code on the Cartier website did you get a confirmation email that it was registered? How would a fake be able to register itself. The serial number and QR code would have to match exactly for this to work for a fake watch on there site?


Yes I registered it on the website with no issues. That's why i had no red flags until it stopped working.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk


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## willydribble

i also registered mine on the cartier website and also later found it to be a replica (got my money back) but its very worrying especially as i see cartier watches especially santos models being sold daily on ebay for anywhere between £3500-£4500 to unsuspecting buyers thinking they have got a good deal .most listings seem to say ex display but they are all fully stickered and surely one seller can only have one ex display model not all of them .either way they are out there in abundance and if you have one or know someone that has one it would be best to get it checked out ASAP , the fact they check out on the extended warranty also means people will not suspect a thing ,probably until its too late


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## [BOBO]

I think this is how the cases and bracelets gets to the fakers. It would explain why the serials are real.








Why Richemont and the luxury houses crush and burn their...


Dateline Tokyo: On the streets of Ginza, you're never far from a luxury goods store. Just as McDonalds and Starbucks don't want you to have to go too far to get a hit, Cartier makes things easy with three stores in the neighbourhood. Straight off the Ginza metro-line is the...




www.watchuseek.com


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## dbostedo

[BOBO] said:


> I think this is how the cases and bracelets gets to the fakers. It would explain why the serials are real.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why Richemont and the luxury houses crush and burn their...
> 
> 
> Dateline Tokyo: On the streets of Ginza, you're never far from a luxury goods store. Just as McDonalds and Starbucks don't want you to have to go too far to get a hit, Cartier makes things easy with three stores in the neighbourhood. Straight off the Ginza metro-line is the...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.watchuseek.com


Do we know that the serials are "real"? When they buy back and/or destroy a watch, I would have guessed that they remove the serial from the database/valid list. But maybe not. It could be that the web registry or the repair center doesn't actually validate the serial number against any "valid" list.

Or maybe Cartier doesn't remove them from any "valid" list, which seems like something they could do to help the situation a bit. Then the repair center wouldn't need to open the watch to get a clue there's a problem. (Or if the website registry checked too, the owner could check things out even ahead of a purchase.)


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## Zama

Watchdisplay said:


> I got this today after asking for a document in hopes of helping me get some money back.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you really believe it to be real, then note the verbiage of their refusal of service:

_The Product was not manufactured *and/or sold by Cartier or by a company duly authorized by Cartier*_

Unless I'm reading this wrong, Cartier's definition of a counterfeit product could well extend to "grey market" watches not sold by Cartier. Even if they are manufactured by Cartier.


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## scuttle

Shmockiebaby said:


> 2) The idea that "many companies have the parts made in China and shipped over to Switzerland for final assembly". Umm, no they don't. Some suppliers may be very diversely located, but most manufacturers want a short lead in the days of just in time (JIT) inventory and manufacturing.


It's nice that you what JIT is. *But it doesn't really have anything to do with the watch business where inventory can sit in storage for years.* And, yes, components for "Swiss" watches are made in China - to the extent the Swiss industry is in trouble at the moment because suppis are disrupted:

A Watch Is More Than Its Parts. But if You Can't Get Them?

_"China is the biggest source of horological imports into Switzerland," said Jean-Daniel Pasche, president of the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry. The organization, which monitors exports monthly to track industry growth, also tallies horological imports on a semiannual basis.

According to the 2019 federation figures, the most current statistics available, Switzerland watchmakers imported a total of 3.78 billion Swiss francs ($3.95 billion) worth of watches and components from sources worldwide. Of that amount, China and Hong Kong's shares totaled 1.09 billion francs._

Really:* it's a very bad idea to take a few buzzwords and claim that knowing them makes you an expert on a subject.* And even worse when they're not even relevant to that industry! If you're going to make statements at least do some basic research - a few seconds with google would have told you how silly you are being.



> I went thru a very similar allegation when I was in the car business - "both aftermarket and OEM replacement fenders are all stamped in China/Taiwan/Indonesia/whatever, and just shipped over here". No they're not. The copyists need a certain volume level, then they tool up. The aftermarket are made in China, which is why they don't fit. In the guitar world, there's this crazy idea that the counterfeit Gibson Les Pauls from China are just real Gibsons, diverted from their production. No they're not, they look as fake as ever when examined. Sorry, that's all BS.


It might be BS in the case of those guitars. But in general, no. I had an interesting conversation about exactly this happening with a colleague whose family unowned a factory in a business and country I'm not going to specify.

Also... *because there are fakes that you can spot doesn't mean that there are ones that you can't. Basic. Logic.*


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## scuttle

For anyone interested, fakes are now so good that they include duplicates of in-house movements:






And -

Is this the most accurate fake Rolex ever produced?

...Note that the guy saying that the fakes are now even better than the one featured is one of the world's top experts on the subjects - he consults for a major chain of pawn shops as well as lecturing on the subject and having written the major reference.

As for papers: they're easier to fake than the watch.


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## Okapi001

scuttle said:


> For anyone interested, fakes are now so good that they include duplicates of in-house movements:


Fake news ;-) So far, there are no "duplicates of in-house movements". Counterfeiters use standard movements, just thinly disguised as Rolex in-house. If you know what to look for, it's very easy to spot the fake ones, as they don't have a free-sprung balance, but a standard regulated one.


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## scuttle

Okapi001 said:


> Fake news ;-) So far, there are no "duplicates of in-house movements". Counterfeiters use standard movements, just thinly disguised as Rolex in-house. If you know what to look for, it's very easy to spot the fake ones, as they don't have a free-sprung balance, but a standard regulated one.


I accept that this is your opinion. But why should anyone take it seriously when a major dealer of used watches says that you're wrong?

Watchfinder - Wikipedia

Do you buy and sell hundreds of millions of dollars worth of watches a year? Are you part of a major luxury goods group with the access to information that gives? If so, I'm impressed!

But if not, which seems more likely, then I think you're being silly by confusing your opinion with fact, and not checking the quality sources you're responding to...


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## Okapi001

I have a proof that the movements are not duplicated, and that guy is just talking, without any proof.


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## paul-smith

I think one of the issues in this thread is what is counterfeit.

It may be that the case is real and paper work is real, but the movement was malested by an amateur and someone decided to put a fake movement inside to sell it on.

It may be that the cases were stolen from the factory that makes them, and fake movements put inside.

I think this is why is so difficult to spot a serious fake, its not fake vs real, it how much is fake!

And just to make every one worry, probably very very unlikely, but buying from and AD is no 100% guarantee, all it takes is a dodgy employee who decides a swap a real for a fake!

Remembers what the Russians say, trust but verify...


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## Carter32

Seeing this thread has motivated me to authenticate my Santos, which I got on eBay, was authenticated by them, and has a warranty card and hangtag that matches the engraving. I tried to use a typical eyeglass repair kid screwdriver to open the case back, but even that tiny screwdriver didn't fit. Does anyone know what size screwdriver I need to take a peek?

Also, to look at the movement, is it as simple as unscrewing the screws and popping off the back?


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## MackyP

Carter32 said:


> Seeing this thread has motivated me to authenticate my Santos, which I got on eBay, was authenticated by them, and has a warranty card and hangtag that matches the engraving. I tried to use a typical eyeglass repair kid screwdriver to open the case back, but even that tiny screwdriver didn't fit. Does anyone know what size screwdriver I need to take a peek?
> 
> Also, to look at the movement, is it as simple as unscrewing the screws and popping off the back?


Thanks for bumping this thread. Read it once, and couldn't find again. Pls keep us posted.

For the two-tone owners, isn't it easy to distinguish fake gold from authentic?


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## Carter32

MackyP said:


> Thanks for bumping this thread. Read it once, and couldn't find again. Pls keep us posted.
> 
> For the two-tone owners, isn't it easy to distinguish fake gold from authentic?


I opened the case with a screwdriver and verified it's real. I got a steal at $6k with taxes and 5 De Lugs straps.


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## [BOBO]

Carter32 said:


> I opened the case with a screwdriver and verified it's real. I got a steal at $6k with taxes and 5 De Lugs straps.


Schrödingers Santos is alive!


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## DowningB

I recently purchased a pre-owned Cartier Baignoire for my wife. We took it to a local AD today to ask about a new strap for it as the deployant buckle doesn't adjust. He said it will take roughly 20 weeks, presumably less if it turns out to be a fake, lol.


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## watchmetoo

Carter32 said:


> I opened the case with a screwdriver and verified it's real. I got a steal at $6k with taxes and 5 De Lugs straps.


The third post of keen eyed flexing horologist after he found the right screwdriver. Seriously?


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## MrDisco99

I definitely thought OPs watch was genuine and Cartier were just being jerks about servicing a secondary market watch. Those pictures of the Miyota movement blew me away. These fakes have gotten scary good.

I guess this is one advantage to getting watches with a display case back.


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## paul-smith

My biggest thought it that case looks 100% perfect, in every way. Maybe it is a real case but someone swapped the movement.


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## daveolson5

I would never buy a watch of any value off eBay. That doesn’t mean I don’t shop eBay, I do. There is a site out of Germany; Chrono24. From that site I have purchased Patek, Rolexes, Seikos, Cartier with never a question or problem. Chrono24 only does watches.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## paul-smith

Chrono24 gives you 14 days of protection, if you do not find an issue in that timeframe, that's it. They in fact remove consumer rights to some degree as they present themselves as a "Escrow" service.

Ebay gives you the same multi year protection you get when you pay by credit card.

For items that are worth enough Ebay guarantees authenticity, Chrono24 does nothing.


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## Rustyrotor

These fake Cartiers are everywhere. I bought one. Luckily I had my suspicions about the seller and got my money back. The watchmaker I took it to for a second opinion couldn't believe how good it was.

Two questions - why do the serials register on the Cartier website?? This is a travesty and must be doing serious harm to Cartiers reputation? Or will eventually. They need to deal with this. Do they know? Or care?

Second - as previously mentioned there are lots of fake Cartiers for sale on ebay. Many of these are priced over the threshold for eBay authentication by established sellers with lots of good feedback. How? Are these fakes getting through the authentication process and passing eBay's checks??

Everyone should educate themselves on just how good these fakes are now. Have a look on Reddit r/reptime and go down the rabbit hole... It's certainly changed my perspective on watch buying.


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## [BOBO]

Rustyrotor said:


> These fake Cartiers are everywhere. I bought one. Luckily I had my suspicions about the seller and got my money back. The watchmaker I took it to for a second opinion couldn't believe how good it was.
> 
> Two questions - why do the serials register on the Cartier website?? This is a travesty and must be doing serious harm to Cartiers reputation? Or will eventually. They need to deal with this. Do they know? Or care?
> 
> Second - as previously mentioned there are lots of fake Cartiers for sale on ebay. Many of these are priced over the threshold for eBay authentication by established sellers with lots of good feedback. How? Are these fakes getting through the authentication process and passing eBay's checks??
> 
> Everyone should educate themselves on just how good these fakes are now. Have a look on Reddit r/reptime and go down the rabbit hole... It's certainly changed my perspective on watch buying.


The answer to why the serials are real is that they use the cases that went to destruction but never got destroyed.

The fakes are good because the parts you see are actually real.
The "only" part that is fake is the movement and probably the dial as well.


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## trickydicky

Watchdisplay said:


> Hello fellow watchfam, I generally do not do posts other than sales corner posts.
> However, I had an interesting yet frustrating situation that I hope anyone with cartier knowledge or cartier service history can chime in on.
> 
> This is my second cartier purchase therefore, service procedure and knowledge definitely are not my strong point.
> 
> Here's the story:
> 
> So about a month ago I purchased a cartier Santos de Cartier medium two tone from a private seller here in the forums that purchased the watch grey market. I generally buy Rolex, AP, and omega from either the AD or from forums dealers that I know and trust.
> 
> He had a comparison thread on the TT that he sold me and his stainless steel variant with plenty of photos.
> 
> Long story short I've had the watch for approx 2 months. It came from the UK to me here in the US.
> Came with inner and outer box, warranty card, manual with AD purchase stamp and hand written signature, brand new deployment unused in original cartier box and stickers, new strap unopened, plastic bezel protector, hang tag, original shopping bag.
> 
> Got the watch and immediately registered it on cartier.com and they even offered the extended 7 year international warranty which I didn't ask for.
> 
> Fast forward about 3 weeks ago and the watch quit working. No problem right?
> 
> Well I request service and wait for a service kit to be delivered and I get nothing for over a week. I finally call them and they say they are out of service kits and I would have had to wait until more came in??? Well how was I supposed to know that... keep in mind this original service request kit is still pending lol.
> 
> So the ambassador sends me a label and on the paperwork direct from cartier they instructed me to send the watch without original box and or accessories other than the bracelet and photo copy of the warranty card.
> 
> So I send it in and wait about 1.5 weeks and no service update other than me checking tracking that it indeed was received. So I call them and ask for an update very politely. They begin to ask many questions where I purchased the watch and finally after a bunch of back and forth I get a reply that service deemed my watch counterfeit.
> 
> Okay I'm floored and so confused. After about 4 days I finally get ahold of someone directly in service customer care calls and I ask if the watch could be further inspected.
> 
> Just called them back yesterday and I'm informed that they think the gold is plated due to it being "sightly to dark in hue." Keep in mind I generally only buy solid gold pieces for my collection and I'm pretty knowledgeable about gold etc.
> 
> They also informed me that they felt the bracelet had too much "give" there exact words not mine. In addition, they said the movement was not 100% a cartier creation. They would not elaborate If that meant it had been tampered with or it 100% was counterfeit.
> 
> They asked if I wanted the watch shipped back to me and said they gladly would ship back if I provided a label.
> 
> I have not opened the watch due to Keeping WR and I honestly had no questionable thoughts.
> 
> I will update this thread with movement pics once I receive the watch back.
> 
> Here are some photos.
> 
> One of my questions is has anyone had experience with cartier denying service due to the watch being grey market?
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Isn't it as simple as getting a watch checked by a reputable experienced watchmaker immediately after receipt ? Like getting an independent inspection when buying a car. 
You can still get it appraised ... not too late. Unless you think cartier have messed around with it, which would be unlikely.


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## Rustyrotor

[BOBO] said:


> The answer to why the serials are real is that they use the cases that went to destruction but never got destroyed.
> 
> The fakes are good because the parts you see are actually real.
> The "only" part that is fake is the movement and probably the dial as well.


I don't have any particular reason to argue against what you're saying but that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. It would be interesting if you have any proof?

Why would Cartier send perfectly good cases to be 'destroyed'? Also that must mean there's an endless supply of Cartier cases heading to 'destruction' because you can buy 100 of these watches at a time from the Chinese counterfeit watch dealers if you so wish.

If the cases are made for Cartier in a Chinese factory and they're somehow escaping the production line don't you think Cartier would have binned that factory off and cancelled the contract by now?

I think the reality is Cartiers warranty system or website is being gamed somehow. Also modern manufacturing machinery can analyse and duplicate basically anything perfectly and that now makes these big brand watches basically nothing special. I think sometimes the watch enthusiasts don't want to hear this and put their heads in the sand. But people need to recognise this and be aware because as I said the fakes are absolutely everywhere now.


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## [BOBO]

Rustyrotor said:


> I don't have any particular reason to argue against what you're saying but that sounds like a bit of a stretch to me. It would be interesting if you have any proof?
> 
> Why would Cartier send perfectly good cases to be 'destroyed'? Also that must mean there's an endless supply of Cartier cases heading to 'destruction' because you can buy 100 of these watches at a time from the Chinese counterfeit watch dealers if you so wish.
> 
> If the cases are made for Cartier in a Chinese factory and they're somehow escaping the production line don't you think Cartier would have binned that factory off and cancelled the contract by now?
> 
> I think the reality is Cartiers warranty system or website is being gamed somehow. Also modern manufacturing machinery can analyse and duplicate basically anything perfectly and that now makes these big brand watches basically nothing special. I think sometimes the watch enthusiasts don't want to hear this and put their heads in the sand. But people need to recognise this and be aware because as I said the fakes are absolutely everywhere now.


Cartier is one of the companies that destroys most.
Louis Vuitton is another.
The movements are used in another watch, but the bracelets and cases are destroyed.

If you're not familiar with the practice, you should read up on it before you start guessing.

Just read the thread and you'll hopefully understand.


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## [BOBO]

[BOBO] said:


> Cartier is one of the companies that destroys most.
> Louis Vuitton is another.
> The movements are used in another watch, but the bracelets and cases are destroyed.
> 
> If you're not familiar with the practice, you should read up on it before you start guessing.
> 
> Just read the thread and you'll hopefully understand.


Godfrey

Here's a link for you 








Why Richemont and the luxury houses crush and burn their...


Dateline Tokyo: On the streets of Ginza, you're never far from a luxury goods store. Just as McDonalds and Starbucks don't want you to have to go too far to get a hit, Cartier makes things easy with three stores in the neighbourhood. Straight off the Ginza metro-line is the...




www.watchuseek.com


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## Rustyrotor

I've read the thread. I think you're guessing aswell. It's not difficult for a modern manufacturing company to shape a piece of stainless steel in a certain way. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Did you have a look at the Reddit group I mentioned in my first post? It will open an awful lot of eyes...


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## [BOBO]

Rustyrotor said:


> I've read the thread. I think you're guessing aswell. It's not difficult for a modern manufacturing company to shape a piece of stainless steel in a certain way. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Did you have a look at the Reddit group I mentioned in my first post? It will open an awful lot of eyes...


Did you read the thread i linked?

It's not me saying it. It's a well known practice for pretty much all luxury brands.

We are not disagreeing, it's just you don't know what you're talking about.
Please read up on the topic before you question something that you don't understand.


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## Rustyrotor

it would be nice if you didn't throw around insulting accusations of 'not knowing what I'm talking about.'

I don't think you know what you're talking about. You have sidestepped 90% of the points I've made. Not that you're obliged to respond or that I'm particularly asking you in particular.

The thread you have linked doesn't explain why or how or even if these parts are getting into the hands of the fakers. You think this is what counterfeit watches are made from. I disagree and I think people should be more awake to how these watches are produced so that they are better able to avoid them if they wish.

If you disagree with me I don't particularly care as you haven't provided any proof or evidence.


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## [BOBO]

Rustyrotor said:


> it would be nice if you didn't throw around insulting accusations of 'not knowing what I'm talking about.'
> 
> I don't think you know what you're talking about. You have sidestepped 90% of the points I've made. Not that you're obliged to respond or that I'm particularly asking you in particular.
> 
> The thread you have linked doesn't explain why or how or even if these parts are getting into the hands of the fakers. You think this is what counterfeit watches are made from. I disagree and I think people should be more awake to how these watches are produced so that they are better able to avoid them if they wish.
> 
> If you disagree with me I don't particularly care as you haven't provided any proof or evidence.


You haven't made any points.
And you prove with your rant that you haven't understood anything at all.


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## Rustyrotor

You've understood even less. Look up the word rant


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## [BOBO]

Rustyrotor said:


> You've understood even less. Look up the word rant


Whenever you find yourself needing to write so much that you need multiple paragraphs, you pretty much lost the argument. Less is more 

Here's the definition of rant.
Rant
Speak or shout at length in an angry, impassioned way.
"she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"


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## CMSgt Bo

Both of you need to knock it off.


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