# Vintage Porsche Design 3H Military chrono by Orfina



## UltraMagnetic

date wheel is in Italian, got it in Italy.

thought you guys might dig this.....I have a decent 5100 collection, but this one is hot.

modded with a new Bell & Ross HYDRO bracelet off ebay......excuse the lousy pic!


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## Malyel

Great looking watches there. I love my Porsche vintage chrono also.


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## UltraMagnetic

hey Cannon......! funny meeting you hereb-)

nice chronos!!!


and here are my heuer 510's..........I love the 5100 as you can see!

excuse the resized and lousy pics please!


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## gaijin

Malyel said:


> Great looking watches there. I love my Porsche vintage chrono also.


I didn't know there were that many around:


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## G Shock

Malyel said:


> Great looking watches there. I love my Porsche vintage chrono also.


I think that the right watch was wearing by Tom Cruise in Top Gun or wrong? I thoyght his wearing porsche watch.


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## Malyel

UltraMagnetic said:


> hey Cannon......! funny meeting you hereb-)
> 
> nice chronos!!!
> 
> and here are my heuer 510's..........I love the 5100 as you can see!
> 
> excuse the resized and lousy pics please!


Very nice collection! :-!


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## UltraMagnetic

thanks!

like you I am originally a chrono guy, the diver phenom just started a while ago


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## fencerguy

Hi I've just purchased an orfina royal navy (wanted one for years) Having some problems searching out any history on this military evaluation issue. Its has the H3 symbol and is correct in all its markings. Can anyone help with links or publication recommondations or can you tell me how many were purchased by the Navy?
Thanks


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## Crusader

fencerguy said:


> Hi I've just purchased an orfina royal navy (wanted one for years) Having some problems searching out any history on this military evaluation issue. Its has the H3 symbol and is correct in all its markings. Can anyone help with links or publication recommondations or can you tell me how many were purchased by the Navy?
> Thanks


First of all, welcome to the forum, Fencerguy! 

I am not sure that the "Royal Navy" on the face of an Orfina denotes actual service of the watch (type) with the RN ... AFAIK, "Royal Navy" is used as an alternative brand of Orfina in markets where someone else holds the rights to the Orfina name (e.g. in Germany).

As far as I can see, the claim that these watches have actually been used by the RN stems from distributors, not the OEM.

The official name of the brand/factory is "Uhrenschmiede Grenchen", and their watches are marketed labeled either "Orfina", "Royal Navy" or just with the Uhrenschmiede Grenchen signet.

http://www.orfina.ch/shop_e/index.html


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## colwheel

Hi ,
do you think the left one ( Bell+Ross ) has an 5100 mov ?
Cheers
Mike


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## fencerguy

Hi Thank you for your reply. for a quality watch maker that website is doing them no favours. I forgot to tell you that my watch is a porsche design with the 3H markings.


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## Anthony Spon-Smith

_*No sales, WTB or solicitations on the forum - please observe the forum rules. Thank you.*_



UltraMagnetic said:


> hey Cannon......! funny meeting you hereb-)
> 
> nice chronos!!!
> 
> and here are my heuer 510's..........I love the 5100 as you can see!
> 
> excuse the resized and lousy pics please!


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## UltraMagnetic

colwheel said:


> Hi ,
> do you think the left one ( Bell+Ross ) has an 5100 mov ?
> Cheers
> Mike


yessir it does


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## sweets

UltraMagnetic said:


> yessir it does


Sorry, not wanting to be rude and butt in, but the actual answer is no, it doesn't. The B&R in your original post uses a Valjoux 7750.

However, that is the movement originally used in the Porsche Design, so there are clear similarities.

Cheers
sweets


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## UltraMagnetic

sweets said:


> Sorry, not wanting to be rude and butt in, but the actual answer is no, it doesn't. The B&R in your original post uses a Valjoux 7750.
> 
> However, that is the movement originally used in the Porsche Design, so there are clear similarities.
> 
> Cheers
> sweets


ah....excuse me!

I stand corrected...:-!

actually I guess that makes sense:thanks


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## MSAINT

Here's mine...










with two Bundeswehr contract numbers in the case back.










Just wished it had the 3H on the dial!


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## Pascal S

MSAINT said:


> Just wished it had the 3H on the dial!


Well, the original issued watches didn't have the "3H" symbol on their dial.

Here's mine...










And here are its caseback issue marks...


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## Schirra

Hi, this is a strange version.
It's a BUND issued black PVD Porsche Design, I've seen rarely a black "3H" with issued marking on the back.

In a discussion with the kindly Mr. Knirim he tell me that maybe it can be a "proto" version offer to the BUND but not finally issued...
_
"I think these watches were build for the BUND but not issued finally. I very nice watch.

. Gruesse/Regards/Salute Konrad Knirim"_

01/05/2007



















I think is a fine piece, it's in very ggod condition with the original cardboard box.
Note that the black steel bracelet is aftermarket as the watch is coming to me with a classic BUND strap as in the first pic!

:thanks


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## Junior

fencerguy said:


> Hi I've just purchased an orfina royal navy (wanted one for years) Having some problems searching out any history on this military evaluation issue. Its has the H3 symbol and is correct in all its markings. Can anyone help with links or publication recommondations or can you tell me how many were purchased by the Navy?
> Thanks


I too have one of these very rare models, and as you say, specific documentation is very difficult to come up with, particularly as ORFINA has gone through various changes since the 1970s. As far as I have been able to ascertain from other collectors and anecdotal evidence, ORFINA tendered for a UK military contract in 1979 to supply chronograph watches, and a trial run of 50 were issued to the Royal Navy. These were marked on the dial 'Military' Porsche Design Royal Navy, with the red 3H symbol in a circle between 1 and 2 o'clock, and the casebacks were engraved "Porsche Design Orfina Military Chronograph 7177 MOD, DEP INT. In an innovative move for the time, the crystal was coated with a 'military' anti glare solution, presumably a forerunner to todays' AR material.

They housed the now legendary Lemania 5100 movement, predictably had English Day/Date wheels,and were much appreciated by the Officers to whom they were issued, but turned out to be too expensive for the UK Government, and the contract was never entered into. ORFINA, however, retained the rights to the "Royal Navy" trademark, and continue to market watches under that name - although these modern offerings are nothing whatsoever to do with the small run of trial pieces made in the late 1970s.

When I bought mine, the respected dealer who sourced it told me that in 17 years of searching, he had only seen 5 such models. They are fine watches - wear yours in good health!


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## Schirra

The Royal Navy version is very rare, you will admire one also in the very interesting book of Mr. Wesolowsky:


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## Flightpath

Crusader said:


> First of all, welcome to the forum, Fencerguy!
> 
> I am not sure that the "Royal Navy" on the face of an Orfina denotes actual service of the watch (type) with the RN ... AFAIK, "Royal Navy" is used as an alternative brand of Orfina in markets where someone else holds the rights to the Orfina name (e.g. in Germany).
> 
> As far as I can see, the claim that these watches have actually been used by the RN stems from distributors, not the OEM.
> 
> The official name of the brand/factory is "Uhrenschmiede Grenchen", and their watches are marketed labeled either "Orfina", "Royal Navy" or just with the Uhrenschmiede Grenchen signet.
> 
> http://www.orfina.ch/shop_e/index.html


Hi,

There was a discussion about 'ROYAL NAVY' marked Orfina watches on MWR a few days ago.

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?p=80049

I found a few other Orfina models with 'ROYAL NAVY' marked on the faces while searching the net and it indeed seems that they are not connected to the British Royal Navy at all. As Crusader points out, it looks like one of Uhrenschmiede Grenchen's brand names.

Some misleading caseback markings are also explained.....

The MOD.DEP.INT part means "modèle déposé international" which in English roughly means "internationally patented design".

Here's what internationalwatchclub say about Orfina Royal Navy marked watches.....

http://www.internationalwatchclub.com/orfina-watches/

I have found this, Orfina is makeing watches with the broad arrow on the face along with their Royal Navy marked watches......

http://pilotswatches.co.uk/Orfina.htm

cheers,

-John


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## Schirra

It's very strange that wesolowsky that is a well know military watch expert make an error in his book.
BTW, he don't say that the "Royal Navy" was issued, but that only few pieces was sent to RN to evaluate and they was refused for the high price.
I can argue that even if this model is not issued a very collectors interest will be on this, cause there's only few in the market.
I think is not correct, to mix the "commercial" brand Royal Navy, with the models supplied fot the evaluation.


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## Schirra

Straight from my personal copy of the book:


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## Crusader

I believe there are an error or two in any book - it is almost unavoidable.

I find the coincidence of RN-evaluated models, and use of the Royal Navy brand instead of Orfina in certain markets due to copyright issues (apparently someone helds holds the right to the name "Orfina" in, among others, Germany and Austria) too close for comfort to accept without additional corroboration.


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## Schirra

HI Crusader,

I totally agree with you that some error may appear in any book, most of the book have error, like the Time Capsule for example, that refer lots of wrong codes and reference, and do not mention the load of uncorrected Speedmaster's (wrong bezel, wrong hands, and so on&#8230 that is figured.

BTW, Mr. Wesolowsky, I think, is not the kind of researcher that can mistake a commercial name with a precise story he told.
I suppose he make some research with the RN before to write those words and to dedicate a single page to this Porsche Design military watch, and not (for example) to the BUND version that is for sure certificate.
It's a kind of error that may destroy the trust of a researcher I think.

But, I agree with you, without any corroboration it's no possible to be sure of nothing.
What I think we are discussing, in other words, are not if this watch is an issue watch, but if a sample of a Porsche Design Orfina, with Lemania 5100 movement was presented to the RN for evaluation.
What we all are shure is that the watch is not a copy or a Royal Navy branded, as the kind we have seen on the web _(sort of hommage or inspired military watch that have nothing to share with the real Porsche Design Orfina and the 5100 movement)_ but a reliable, correct and exactly right PD as the BUND issued.

I don't find nothing strange if some of those was _evaluated_ by RN.

It will be interesting to know if somebody can confirm that this was not possible at all... and why.

Thanks!


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## Gerry

I really do like these watches!!!
I bought a Prosche Design P'6000 series in December and it has not been off my wrist....all my other watches have been relegated!!!

I'd love to know more about them.
I'd also love to get a SS bracelet for mine...any ideas?


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## Junior

Gerry said:


> I really do like these watches!!!
> I bought a Prosche Design P'6000 series in December and it has not been off my wrist....all my other watches have been relegated!!!
> 
> I'd love to know more about them.
> I'd also love to get a SS bracelet for mine...any ideas?


I'm not sure what the lug width is on your watch, but if it's 20mm, you might try a bracelet for the Sinn 144 St Sa. I seem to think that they have virtually the same case and lug design, so you might be lucky!


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## 145.012-67

Schirra said:


> Hi, this is a strange version.
> It's a BUND issued black PVD Porsche Design, I've seen rarely a black "3H" with issued marking on the back.
> 
> In a discussion with the kindly Mr. Knirim he tell me that maybe it can be a "proto" version offer to the BUND but not finally issued...
> _
> "I think these watches were build for the BUND but not issued finally. I very nice watch.
> 
> . Gruesse/Regards/Salute Konrad Knirim"_
> 
> 01/05/2007


Here is my Orfina 'BUND'!

_Another_ strange piece: Black PVD with two issue numbers on the caseback. b-)




























X


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## cuthbert

UltraMagnetic said:


> date wheel is in Italian, got it in Italy.
> 
> thought you guys might dig this.....I have a decent 5100 collection, but this one is hot.
> 
> modded with a new Bell & Ross HYDRO bracelet off ebay......excuse the lousy pic!


Lovely watch! are you sure that the wheel is in italian and no in french? AFAIK the PD were never issued in Italy, they had the famous Heuer AMI....

Anyway, is the other watch a B&R Space 2 in black PVD?


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## Schirra

145.012-67 said:


> Here is my Orfina 'BUND'!
> 
> _Another_ strange piece: Black PVD with two issue numbers on the caseback. b-)
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> X


Very interesting piece, congrats.


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## 145.012-67

Thanks! 

I've been searching for a PVD Orfina 'Bund' for ages and _finally_ i was rewarded...

X


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## David Woo

The dual commissioning numbers was a bit common, I had 2 watches so marked. When the watch was returned to the unit QM, the official item number may have changed and thus the old number often was struck through and the new number engraved.
DW


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## 145.012-67

I am afraid i will slightly disagree:

From my archive with dozens of pictures of Orfina 'Bunds' i can tell you that the double struck NSN's are _not_ as common as one might think.

As far as the reason for the second NSN (_6645-12-194-8642_) is concerned; this was introduced in 1982 after the appearance of the Arctos 'Bund' which was the second automatic chronograph (Orfina was the first) ever issued to the 'Bundesluftwaffe'.

For mainly logistics' reasons the new NSN (_6645-12-194-8642_) from now on had to describe *all* the existing automatic chronographs in Bundesluftwaffe service (later there were also Tutima and Tengler chronographs).

This was the reason why the old NSN of the Orfina (_6645-12-182-1763_) was changed at the first place.

Thus the old NSNs were crossed out on some Orfina casebacks and the new NSNs were struck, BUT this was done at the factory and before these watches were delivered to the military units.

The old NSN is considered non-existent (when crossed out) and it's like it has never been on the caseback...

X


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## Crusader

Thanks for the detailed info, 145 :-!


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## 145.012-67

The pleasure is indeed _mine_ dear Crusader. ;-)

X


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## transmogrifier

hi just joined up to the forum i have a pd 3h also, which is currently having the crown repaired, but was wondering if anyone has ever seen a military green coloured bezel & strap ?:-s


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## Schirra

I have seen some example with green PVD colour... and also grey but I don't know if them was issued....


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## zinman74

Hello all, I find this article to be perfectly timed as I have just purchased a Orfina/PD BUND Chronograph off MWR. I should be receiving it soon. I have wanted one of these for a while (had a new Sinn 157 a few years ago....never shoulda sold that!!) and the timing was good for this one. I will post pics ASAP.

On a side note, regarding the Orfina brand. I have had and flipped 3. The first one was a used 42mm Orfina Military MKII. Then I found a very nice NOS Military MKII GMT. These were very nice watches, both with Orfina on the dial and not Royal Navy, and I should have kept them both. IIRC, they even had slightly domed sapphire crystals. Later, I ordered an Orfina Beobachtungsuhr, the 37mm little brother the MKII, from the Orfina store. I wasn't so impressed with this one. The watch head was just ok, the finishing and dial printing were a bit below MKII level , but the bracelet was awful. Sharp edges, and very chintzy feeling. I sent it back. The Orfina people (General Watch?) were nice enough and honored the return policy no problems. All that being said, if you find an older MKII with the Orfina dial, buy it, it's a nice piece.


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## transmogrifier

hi i also have porsche 3h military chrono but the crown needs replaced any info where to go would be appreciated :-!


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