# Citizen's new releases with Caliber 0100S



## Shark-sandwich

Just came across this sponsored post on ABTW, never posted before (lurked for ages!) but thought this warranted it.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citizen-cal-0100-eco-drive-watch-movement/

Can't wait to see what watches they put these movements in and whether they will be more available than the chronomasters and exceeds.

Technologically speaking, this looks pretty awesome. I thought most watch companies were luke warm on developing new HAQs, let alone going down the high frequency route.

What do you lot think?


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## Cannonball

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I love my Citizen Chronomaster. It's one of my favorite watches and I wear it almost as much as I wear my SubC. It's definitely my go to watch when I don't want to have a Rolex on display, and it's accuracy is something I can always count on. It has the A660 movement that even tracks the leap years and I only change the time when going to and from DST.

Thank you for sharing this new Citizen technology. It's quite amazing that they can produce a solar powered watch that can, on it's own and no external syncing, can boast +/-1 spy... WOW!!

As an avid user of the Chronomaster, I'm VERY interested.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Interested in learning more details. Wonder if battery life necessitated Eco-Drive?


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## Shark-sandwich

I started learning about HAQs after buying a couple of inexpensive automatic watches around Christmas 2016 (Seiko SKZ211 "landshark" and a Citizen eagle 7 something-or-other off the 'bay)

While I'm happy with the watches and didn't expect much, I didnt realise how irritating it was to constantly make little adjustments when (especially with the seiko's 7s35) lost about 3-4 minutes a week. Add to that they both don't hack, and have very ordinary power reserves.

I had always worn an admittedly poor quality Mondaine quartz and just got accustomed to setting the watch and leaving it until the DST changes.

Anyway to a cut what's becoming a very long and dull story short, HAQ.watch and WUS are slowly teaching me all about these remarkable watches.

I just wish there were more on the market! I've not got a huge budget but I was saving the pennies for a sbgx091 or a Citizen, if I could find one newish on the Japanese market sites when the time came. 

I don't expect them to be cheap, but if a Cal.0100 watch could be worn for decades and still be losing less time than my seiko does in a day - worth it!


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## Shark-sandwich

ronalddheld said:


> Interested in learning more details. Wonder if battery life necessitated Eco-Drive?


Are megahertz frequency watches more power thirsty than thermocompensated ones?

I think i read somewhere that economic drive batteries need to replaced after a set period as they wear out, but on balance no battery changes every few years is such a good feature.


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## Igorek

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Wow, just saw it on ablogtowatch myself, hopefully they put it in the wrist watch ASAP because I want one unless the price will be above 1k


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Interested in learning more details. Wonder if battery life necessitated Eco-Drive?


Likely not. For example, I have a few Citizen watches, a glorified 3 hander that has a perpetual calendar and a RC controlled chronograph. The power reserve for the 3 hander is 1 year, a comparable quartz 3 hander with perpetual calendar using a regular silver-oxide battery would likely last 3-5 years. And to get that 1 yr. life you'd have to stick the watch in the dark, which would stop the sweep second hand to conserve energy. The silver oxide powered watch would still have a ticking second hand. My guess is instead of the typical 3-5 yr. battery life common in most quartz watches these days the silver-oxide cell would yield 1-2 yrs. tops. So, with EcoDrive their routine 1-1.5yr. "reserve" would be reduced to 3-6 months. Still not shabby. Again, this is all a guess based on present technology in EcoDrive products and comparable quartz watches with throw-away batteries.

Now of course what that solar power buys you is pretty much zero maintenance or care operating the watch, never need to change batteries (so the case back doesn't have those marks anymore!!), the thing is always running. THIS is why I love the two Citizen watches I have, same for my wife. Even though she has Longines Master Collection auto and an Omega AT, her Citizen is her "go to" watch. 5 years old and never missed a beat, never needs attention. Even if this new movement is 2-3x off their spec that's damned impressive and I'd dare say Citizen's offering will hit their claimed targets. Every one of their watches in my household is easily a 5 sec/month watch so they seem to get how to trim a movement.

I do have a few questions though:

First, I wonder if they took any of the ideas they used to develop the 262kHz movements for Bulova. So far the 262kHz movements in my small collection are typically within easily under +2 sec/month, maybe they used some of that learning here.

Then there's this tidbit from the article:

_Perhaps most notably, AT-cut variations allow for greater temperature tolerances, specifically in the range of -40°C to +125°C. Additionally, this configuration allows for reduced deviations caused by wearer orientation, which can cause significant changes in accuracy that aren't negligible when attempting this kind of performance. As a result, wearers will not have to worry about errors caused by spatial orientation and positioning becomes less of a concern.

_Could this be why the Longines and Certina TC controlled watches don't always meet their claimed specs? I didn't know that quartz crystals had a positional variation. Interesting that it has very similar shock-protection features in the Longines VHP line. They also will likely get an extremely smooth sweep second hand since the 262kHz Bulovas can do it already, unless that costs too much energy. that's one big advantage to EcoDrive, they can eat some more power than a typical throw-away battery since you've got a power source that's "on" all the time, the light in the room. I'd also bet that Citizen will have an owner's manual to explain how to use the watch on the day they're introduced (I had to get that dig in!!). I will say their manuals are fantastic, they also put up videos on their web page for more complex watches, they are tops when it comes to documentation. Longines could take some lessons here.

What will the design look like? This is where the Swiss have it all over the Japanese. Too many of the Seiko and Citizen designs are plain UGLY. And what's this bugger going to cost? Will it be in the Grand Seiko price range or even worse, a JDM product only. I sure hope not!

This all should be very, very interesting. I can't wait to see what they'll case this movement in, I just hope it isn't an overly big/thick beast. Citizen has a massive distribution network and a good name in the market so they could put a hurt not on the on the Swiss but Seiko too IF they put out some top-flight designs.


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## Pencey Prep

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Looking forward to this caliber being released. If fitted with a Perpetual Calendar it would a No Brainer to buy one of these for set and forget functionality. Changing it 2 twice a for Daylight Saving would be no problem for me.


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## heb

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

One second a year. Yeah, right.


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## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Well, I'm sold. Looks like I can ditch the 4 MHz collection; it's 8 MHz all the way for me, now!


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## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

While I think the difference between tuning fork and AT cut crystals may be expanded upon in another thread (possibly a stickies?), I thought it may be worth posting this from Citizen, to shed light on the matter:

Technical Guide?CITIZEN FINEDEVICE CO.,LTD.


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## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Tom-HK said:


> Well, I'm sold...


Me too!|>


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## Shark-sandwich

Tom-HK said:


> Well, I'm sold. Looks like I can ditch the 4 MHz collection; it's 8 MHz all the way for me, now!


It seems to me that 8,388,608Hz is as close to double the Crystron Mega as you could get, it sounds like it could have been someone in Citizen making an (at the time) unreasonable demand to double the performance and it's taken them a while to get there.

I wouldn't sell the collection just yet 🙂 Congrats on the new Junghans


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## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'd say that with this movement Citizen might combine AT-cut MHz technology and thermocompensation technology for the optimum performance.
Both these technologies have been around for decades but until now they were not used together in a watch.
I remember that we lamented in this very forum years ago that the two technologies should be combined for the "d_ream HAQ watch_"... so here we go.
I'd say when this two technologies are combined then proper calibration during manufacturing would eliminate the need for later digital calibration (no need for a digital calibration port on the movement even for die-hard HAQ-fans like us!).

Citizen, you did it again, well done!:-!


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## riposte

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I should change my dream watches. Sorry GS, Citizen The Chronomaster with Cal. 0100 is my long term goal


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I will see if I can find out more details. http://www.citizenwatch-global.com/100th/product/calibre0100/index.html


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## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> I will see if I can find out more details. The challenge: Accurate to ±1 second | Calibre 0100 | CITIZEN 100th Anniversary - Official Site


There are a few interesting additional details in the Citizen web page. It confirms what the other peice hinted at - that this is not just a thermoinsensitive HF calibre but also adds in thermocompensation. It also states that Citizen have doubled the number of points at which they temperature test the crystal during manufacture. This suggests a more detailed temperature-frequency reference table for the TC circuitry to make more precise corrections.

But frankly they had me at '8 MHz'.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Now the important question is how many models and what will their costs be?


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## chris01

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> It seems to me that 8,388,608Hz is as close to double the Crystron Mega as you could get, it sounds like it could have been someone in Citizen making an (at the time) unreasonable demand to double the performance and it's taken them a while to get there.
> 
> I wouldn't sell the collection just yet 🙂 Congrats on the new Junghans


There's nothing arbitrary about 8388608Hz: it's 2^23, so can be simply divided down to 1Hz.


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



heb said:


> One second a year. Yeah, right.


That was my initial thought. But, Citizen does make good on their claims from what I've observed.

I just hope this isn't an elaborate April Fools day prank!


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

In ABTW the concept piece is this year, and wristwatches will appear in 2019.


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



riposte said:


> I should change my dream watches. Sorry GS, Citizen The Chronomaster with Cal. 0100 is my long term goal


I just hope they

1) put it in an attractive case, for example that gorgeous blue dialed Seiko in your sig (Seiko doesn't even make that one anymore either, stupid in my opinion)
2) don't limit this to JDM
3) don't price it on par with an Omega or God forbid a Rolex

Citizen lately hasn't exactly released what I consider attractive designs in the last several years (same with Seiko), not a one of them comes close to being "I gotta have that!!" designs to me. All of the good looking designs seem to come from the European companies. Maybe they should do what the Japanese car companies do: set up design studios in Europe (and/or the US).

Now it's just wait and see what they release. There was a long lag between their super-thin EcoDrive One announcement and when product was available, I don't expect this to be any different.


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> I started learning about HAQs after buying a couple of inexpensive automatic watches around Christmas 2016 (Seiko SKZ211 "landshark" and a Citizen eagle 7 something-or-other off the 'bay)
> 
> While I'm happy with the watches and didn't expect much, I didnt realise how irritating it was to constantly make little adjustments when (especially with the seiko's 7s35) lost about 3-4 minutes a week. Add to that they both don't hack, and have very ordinary power reserves.
> 
> I had always worn an admittedly poor quality Mondaine quartz and just got accustomed to setting the watch and leaving it until the DST changes.
> 
> Anyway to a cut what's becoming a very long and dull story short, HAQ.watch and WUS are slowly teaching me all about these remarkable watches.
> 
> I just wish there were more on the market! I've not got a huge budget but I was saving the pennies for a sbgx091 or a Citizen, if I could find one newish on the Japanese market sites when the time came.
> 
> I don't expect them to be cheap, but if a Cal.0100 watch could be worn for decades and still be losing less time than my seiko does in a day - worth it!


Japanese quartz movements are superb, even the el-cheapo ones but their el-cheapo mechanicals? Um, not even close. ETA and Sellita both are better choices in my experience. All of my ETA and Sellitas are within 30 sec/week if not better. I keep hearing of too many owners with Miyota and Seiko mechanicals (talking cheap ones, not Grand Seikos or high-end Citizens) having more like 15-30 sec per day to get near those watches. And I've noticed a lot of watchmakers don't even want to mess with Japanese (or Chinese) mechanicals, makes me think those are really disposable watches, more so than a $30 quartz watch.


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> Are megahertz frequency watches more power thirsty than thermocompensated ones?
> 
> I think i read somewhere that economic drive batteries need to replaced after a set period as they wear out, but on balance no battery changes every few years is such a good feature.


They do need to be replaced but you can get 20+ years from an EcoDrive rechargeable cell. Those cells are not Li-ion, they're lithium iron phosphate cells, which are optimized for longer life over energy density. There's also other differences:

- In a watch, the cell is charging most of the time since it's typically exposed to light. That's not true in a mobile electronic device like a cell phone or laptop. What degrades a cell is complete charge/discharge cycles, the 'sweet spot' for long life is keeping the cell between 30-80% of capacity, not letting get below or above that. That's how car makers get years and years out of hybrid and/or plug-ins instead of 2-4 yrs. like a consumer product.

- Even if capacity drops you likely won't notice it. Citizen typically quotes 1+ years of battery reserve in complete darkness. If you keep the watch exposed to light all the time (ie don't keep it in a drawer all the time), if the capacity drops to, say, 30 days, would you really notice? Not likely.

The main downside to EcoDrive is a limitation on how the dial is designed and what materials can be used, it severely limits what can be done. What I've noticed is some newer Citizens have the outer ring only as the solar cell, allowing the designer to create more interesting dials. I can't wait to see what Citizen has in store for us, I just hope they don't offer us ridiculously great accuracy in what is an otherwise hideous design (Ecozilla comes to mind).


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

BTW, in the link Ron posted I noticed this line:

_We succeeded in raising Eco-Drive's running time so that it kept running as long as there is light, and even run in complete darkness for up to six months on a single full charge.

_That says a lot about power consumption.

My Citizen RC chrono has a 1 1/2 yr. power reserve and is a reasonably power hungry watch compared to my much smaller 3 hander since the chrono runs a radio daily to sync with WWV. My initial guess of 3-6 months was correct (I'm guessing they'll have to use the larger cell like in my RC chrono, not the smaller cell as in my 3 hander) plus this thing uses 3x or more the power of their present offerings. Quite impressive for running the watch at over 8MHz and the other 'stuff' going on inside. That also explains why they have as many jewels in a quartz movement as in a mechanical watch (the pictures show "17 jewels" on the movement back), friction became a big deal when pushing for this kind of accuracy. They also don't seem to be using motors for all of the hands like ETA did, likely would make the case way too bulky, power hungry and/or expensive.

Time to start browsing for patent disclosures. ;-)

Citizen also just posted a video on Yootoob:






No continuously sweep second hand in the video but it does have a similar step function to a GS and hits the marks spot on. At least in the video.


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## odd_and_vintage_fan

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Tom-HK said:


> Well, I'm sold. Looks like I can ditch the 4 MHz collection; it's 8 MHz all the way for me, now!


Let me know when you're selling and I'll make as good an offer as I can on a Casio digital. ;-)

This could be an endgame watch for me. Get the water resistance checked every five years and otherwise don't touch it. Can't wait to see the wristwatch versions!


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## buffon.bj

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Very exciting news, can't wait to see these movements in real watches. I am down to just one The Citizen right now out of the four I had half a year ago - if these movements are available in watches priced 1500-3000€, I'd be happy to buy a few more again


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## Ahriman4891

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Very exciting news! Like others said, hopefully the actual watches are handsome -- this is where The Citizens are behind Grand Seikos IMO.

Interesting that they plan to sell the watches in 2019 -- that's the 50th anniversary of the original Seiko Astron, no doubt Seiko will prepare something special. I guess Citizen's strategists figured they'd spoil the party a bit, and weren't afraid to compete head to head.


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## gaijin

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> Citizen also just posted a video on Yootoob:


So what's all this, "... [AT cut crystal] minimizes the impact of gravitational acceleration caused by changes in position and sweeping arm movements?"

The graph in the video shows about a -10 to +3 milliseconds/day variation in a tuning fork-shaped oscillator due to positional orientation.

As our measurement techniques become more sophisticated, should we be testing watches for rate at Dial Up, Dial Down, Crown Up, Crown Down, Crown Left and Crown Right positions? And then store the watch at the optimum position?

Wow! Learn something new every day.


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## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gaijin said:


> So what's all this, "... [AT cut crystal] minimizes the impact of gravitational acceleration caused by changes in position and sweeping arm movements?"
> 
> The graph in the video shows about a -10 to +3 milliseconds/day variation in a tuning fork-shaped oscillator due to positional orientation.
> 
> As our measurement techniques become more sophisticated, should we be testing watches for rate at Dial Up, Dial Down, Crown Up, Crown Down, Crown Left and Crown Right positions? And then store the watch at the optimum position?
> 
> Wow! Learn something new every day.


I believe that's what is technically termed 'marketing BS'. They are trying to make out that this new movement is so precise that influences undetectable to their 5 SPY movements are suddenly an important factor. I might buy an 0100-equipped watch, but I'm not buying that nonsense.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Have any of us with GPS receivers even want to see positional variations while keeping temperature "constant"??


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'm not sure if I'd call it marketing BS. The oscillation method in an XY cut quartz crystal is indeed different than in an AT crystal and when I read more about the way the two resonators differ it makes some sense. If you're talking a regular 32kHz watch that a second or two a month it doesn't make a lot of difference. If you're trying to meet 1sec/yr, ie, a ridiculously tight standard that is 1 part per 31,536,000, these engineers have to consider errors never considered before. It's quite an ambitious target, the $20k Tek oscilloscope I use at work sure doesn't have a time base that precise.

If you follow the auto industry you'll see a similar struggle of "rooting out piddly stuff" : getting mass out of the vehicle. They'll do things to get mass out that seem silly at first but when the system is put together it makes a big difference. The entire game in many industries is now moved from a game of inches (or rather centimeters) into a game of millimeters if not less.


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## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Wow.

Put this in a Chronomaster style case and I'm in!


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## Igorek

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*






These watches are definitely not going to be cheap


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## Shark-sandwich

That Citizen had to pay to post on the "world's most popular source for watch reviews, news and admiration" is a sad state of affairs.

1SPY! On your wrist. It's no strontium clock for sure but it has a kind of 'milestone moment' feel about it.

I suppose I shoildnt complain, if hodinkee were fawning all over it I'm sure we'd never find any available, except in the odd pawn shop in Shoreditch or Greenwich Village NY.


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> That Citizen had to pay to post on the "world's most popular source for watch reviews, news and admiration" is a sad state of affairs.
> 
> 1SPY! On your wrist. It's no strontium clock for sure but it has a kind of 'milestone moment' feel about it.
> 
> I suppose I shoildnt complain, if hodinkee were fawning all over it I'm sure we'd never find any available, except in the odd pawn shop in Shoreditch or Greenwich Village NY.


I was also surprised they had to pay to put out that information too.

As for availability, like it's easy to find _any_ watch that's higher-priced these days in a US retailer? Except for Tags and Rolexes it's darned near impossible to find a lot of what you see reviewed if it's over priced over US$300 unless you're in a really big city (like you).

Even the major mass-market department stores don't stock much of what they show on their web sites anymore. Those of us that aren't in huge metro areas (like NYC, LA, Boston, Chicago) are typically getting our 'fix' via the on-line market.


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## Shark-sandwich

tmathes said:


> Time to start browsing for patent disclosures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .


They must be raging "Citizen One" is already taken.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I speculate that mass market version could be the same as for the current Chronomasters. LEs might be 2,3,4 times more?


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## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'm wondering if it's worth warming Higuchi up now for a 2019 release?

This is actually making me rein back on other watch purchases...


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## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



heb said:


> One second a year. Yeah, right.


And you know this is BS...why?


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## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

This may be interesting. The question is, indeed, gonna be the price. And IAHH. Honestly, with what they tossed in, why not IAHH? They have the shock protection which, it would seem, allows for quick reset, and what's the point of 1 SPY without IAHH?

Will that be a deal breaker? Probably not...but it might mean I hold off for a while.

Besides, I think these will be high at first, but may actually drop. This feels like a movement where yields will improve, and therefore potentially support some price reductions.

I may be the odd man out here, but I like the pocket watch form factor. I am not necessarily crazy about the visuals, tho.

In other Citizen Baselworld news, there's a new Eco Drive One. Blue dial. Looked pretty nice. Also, a new GPS movement, the F990. Only in a honkin' big TANK of a watch (48mm) and crazy busy dial. Looks like no new The Citizen.


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I have"forgotten"about the Seiko 9F anniversary watches. 
I suppose I could talk to the nearest boutique to alert me when the watches arrive.


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## ljb187

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



heb said:


> One second a year. Yeah, right.


I don't know...maybe they could do it. I have a Chronomaster (CTQ57-0934) which I set late April of 2013 and it's lost 17 seconds between then and now. That works out to -3.4 SPY from an older A660 movement. Pretty sure I'll need a new battery soon...


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

If Hoptroff put out watches with 1s/y spec, Citizen can, as well.


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## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> If Hoptroff put out watches with 1s/y spec, Citizen can, as well.


It was not possible to properly test Hoptroff's claims, but I do tend to agree. The technology to make this possible is definitely there. I might even go so far as to say that the insanely high 8.4 MHz frequency may not have been strictly necessary in order for Citizen to have achieved this.


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## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Reading up a little on the AT cuts, 8.4 MHz is actually near the low end of their frequency range...0.5 to 300 MHz. 8.4 means 2^23 (8.388 million and change). Fits a 24 bit signed integer accumulator perfectly, whcih means simple coding and hardware as long as you're staying with 1/second for the hands.


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## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> This may be interesting. The question is, indeed, gonna be the price. And IAHH. Honestly, with what they tossed in, why not IAHH? They have the shock protection which, it would seem, allows for quick reset, and what's the point of 1 SPY without IAHH?
> 
> Will that be a deal breaker? Probably not...but it might mean I hold off for a while.


Do you know for sure it doesn't have IAHH?

That would be a major disappointment for me.

What is the point of 1 spy if you have to reset the time twice per year for daylight savings and any time you travel?


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## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Working on getting more information. Might be slow for release in 2019.


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## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

As far as I can understand the caliber 0100 is somewhere in the middle between a prototype and a pre-production model. Therefore I perfectly agree that the first goal Citizen wanted to achieve is superior accuracy through a "new" approach (TC + AT cut + HF). Everything else is, at this stage, just unnecessary and pointless. This is also proved by the simple and clean dial and design of the case used to show the movement installed in a "real" watch. Moreover Citizen has actually IAHH + PC on all its HAQ lineup so it would be strange (to say the least) not include these functions in a new caliber. For what I've just written, I am quite comfident the new lineup will include the state of the art of what Citizen can give us.

In another post (or even thread, actually I don't remember) someone said that all this technology is flawed by a poor design, especially if compared to the most prestigious Swiss brands. Actually I fully disagree. Although aesthetics is very personal, I can't understand how the Grand Seiko and The Citizen watches could be defined other than "extremely classic" ! They are very conservative and all the details are traditional and not on the "weird" side. We can even say that the Japanese quality (for these high-end watches) is superior if compared to the similar Swiss models (similar = with similar price and target), so, at least to me, a Japanese High Accuracy Quartz is the only choice when it comes to buying a 2K-3K watch !


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## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I said it Dicioccio, about lousy design. I wasn't talking about Grand Seiko designs or even "The Citizen" designs. I was talking about Citizens mass-market designs, they've gotten too busy or downright ugly in the last few years, same with Seiko. Again, my opinion. This is what I'm talking about when I say "ugly/busy":

BZ1045-05E | CITIZEN WATCH Global Network

The first two lines mentioned are indeed classy looking, especially GS. I wish GS would jazz up the dials, offering more than just white or off white in the North American market. Plus take a look at the quartz offerings vs. the mechanical or Spring Drive models, the interesting dials are NOT in the quartz offerings, same as the Swiss; they're just too understated or bland when quartz is used. The one interesting dial in quartz was that stunning blue dialed GS but you can't get those anymore. the gorgeous dials in GS watches are never quartz. What I've seen in "The Citizen" watches are also rather dull unless you go with mechanical. I also would personally dispense with the date but again, my personal tastes.

As for "The Citizen" line, from what understand they're JDM so for all intents and purposes so they're off-limits (or rather, completely unknown) to most of the globe. Plus I'm not exactly enthused that I'd have to send it to Japan if I did get one to get it serviced (please correct me if I'm wrong). I don't even know what would be entailed with that, when you get those watches aren't they gray market? If so, then no freakin' way I'd buy a watch like that gray market. At least with Swatch products I can send any watch I bought internationally from an AD to the US service center. period. That's a big plus to me.

In all of this talk about Citizen's new movement, a couple of other notes:

- I'm betting the accuracy targets will be met. Citizen is one of the most vertically integrated companies on the planet, they make nearly everything themselves, from nearly all parts, down to the luminous paints, the lubricants used, even the machinery for production. They're one of the few companies that can tailor any part or sub-system used to make the product work as intended. Few can match that kind of skill and know-how to make a watch, not even Swatch. Seiko comes close but not quite. Coupled that with the Japanese culture of fanatical precision and I'm guessing 1 sec. will happen.

- Since Citizen is a huge supplier of components NOT to the watch market they will likely sell what they develop for this watch to other markets. My bet is those miniaturized AT crystals will make it into test equipment or other products that need extreme time accuracy. Think cell phones, laptops/desktops, also smart watches. That can help drive down the cost of the watch movements.

- Biggest question (to me): over time will some of this technology trickle down to Citizen's mass-market movements (namely the AT crystal, running at lower frequencies to save power)? I hope so, that means +/-15 sec/month will slowly become obsolete.


----------



## arogle1stus

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Personally I'm gaa gaa over my Citizen EcoZilla. But wish it were an AutoZilla!
Accuracy, appearance and durability 2nd to none.
Constant controversy whether to wear the Zilla or the Seiko SCC 031 this day
or that.

X TrainDriver Art


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I would have no problem buying JDM and bringing it in to the US boutique for servicing. Concerned the first ones might be ~$6K.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> Do you know for sure it doesn't have IAHH?
> 
> That would be a major disappointment for me.
> 
> What is the point of 1 spy if you have to reset the time twice per year for daylight savings and any time you travel?


No. I only meant that its presence or absence could be the decider.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> - Since Citizen is a huge supplier of components NOT to the watch market they will likely sell what they develop for this watch to other markets. My bet is those miniaturized AT crystals will make it into test equipment or other products that need extreme time accuracy. Think cell phones, laptops/desktops, also smart watches. That can help drive down the cost of the watch movements.


Probably late to the party in terms of test equipment. From my brief research, AT crystals are already in heavy use in electronics test gear. Found at a radio electronics site:



> The AT crystal cut is the most widely used cut and it is particularly used for electronic instruments, etc where oscillators are required to run in the range 500 kHz to around 300 MHz, although the top limit is increasing as technology develops.


It's new to watches, but it's not at all new.

What concerns me is, this suggests Mr. Moderator's fears in re issue price may be warranted.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

AT cut crystals are not actually new to watches at all. All of the MHz-range watches, including the 2.4 MHz Omegas and all of the various 4.2 MHz calibres from the 1970s and early 1980s used AT cut crystals.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Probably late to the party in terms of test equipment. From my brief research, AT crystals are already in heavy use in electronics test gear. Found at a radio electronics site:
> 
> It's new to watches, but it's not at all new.
> 
> What concerns me is, this suggests Mr. Moderator's fears in re issue price may be warranted.


I know they're used in test gear, I should have instead said smaller/cheaper if they can stuff that in a consumer watch (okay, not sure about cheaper, yet). I also wonder if it's more precise or maybe just less power hungry compared to previous crystals? Again, speculation on my part.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Probably late to the party in terms of test equipment. From my brief research, AT crystals are already in heavy use in electronics test gear. Found at a radio electronics site:
> 
> It's new to watches, but it's not at all new.
> 
> What concerns me is, this suggests Mr. Moderator's fears in re issue price may be warranted.


I assume the XY cut won due to cost and in particular less power consumption? Based on what the EcoDrive One costs, I'd expect more in the 2-3k range unless it's a special edition, then the 6k might not be out of the question. At that price point few will bite, I know I sure won't. The ETA movement in the VHP's will win just due to cost, an extra 3-5 sec/year just ain't worth it to me for the incremental price jump.

All we all can now do is wait (for a year or more).....


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I have received a PDF file Nothing really new, but if you want it, PM me and I will email it off to you.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> I assume the XY cut won due to cost and in particular less power consumption? Based on what the EcoDrive One costs, I'd expect more in the 2-3k range unless it's a special edition, then the 6k might not be out of the question. At that price point few will bite, I know I sure won't. The ETA movement in the VHP's will win just due to cost, an extra 3-5 sec/year just ain't worth it to me for the incremental price jump.
> 
> All we all can now do is wait (for a year or more).....


Same site from before says this about the XY cut.



> This crystal cut is widely used for low frequencies where one common frequency is 32.768 kHz. It has advantages that it is very small for the frequency, is less expensive than other low frequency crystal types and in addition to this it has a low impedance and low Co/C1 ratio.


So smaller and cheaper. I also suspect probably easier to make in massive quantities (tens or hundreds of millions per year). 32k may have also been simpler; it's 16 bits.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*










From the Cal 0100 presentation on the Citizen Baselworld site. Sure, it's a prototype, but










this seems to suggest a reasonable-size pocket watch. For sure, it's not clear as there's no direct indication of scale. That movement shot says it's filling the case, so this may not be a small movement.

And is it just me, or does that coil look bigger?

BTW, TON of info here.
The challenge: Accurate to ±1 second | Calibre 0100 | CITIZEN 100th Anniversary - Official Site

There's a few sections going into more detail. One thing they do mention is, the AT crystal does draw more power, and they had to design the whole thing for low voltage.



> The traditional tuning fork-shaped crystal oscillator has a frequency of 32.768 kilohertz. By contrast, the AT cut crystal oscillator oscillates at 8.4 megahertz-a frequency 256 times higher. The AT cut crystal oscillator thus consumes a lot of electricity even before having to drive the temperature correction and shock counteraction functions. It was essential for us to reduce energy consumption wherever possible in order to maximise the running time of Eco-Drive, CITIZEN'sproprietary light-powered technology.
> 
> As well as developing a proprietary oscillatory circuit that can run at low voltage, we aggressively lowered the quantity of energy consumed by every part of the movement. We succeeded in raising Eco-Drive's running time so that it kept running as long as there is light, and even run in complete darkness for up to six months on a single full charge.
> The Calibre 0100 combines both precision and a long running time. This is one of the possibilities of the watch that CITIZEN has realised in its pursuit of the essence of the watch over the last 100 years. We did so because we are a pioneer of light-powered watch and continue to advance the technology even today.


----------



## gaijin

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> BTW, TON of info here.
> The challenge: Accurate to ±1 second | Calibre 0100 | CITIZEN 100th Anniversary - Official Site


I agree, that pocketwatch movement looks too large for a wristwatch.

Also from that link:

_*As of February 2018, for an analogue light-powered watch, according to research by Citizen Watch Co., Ltd.
_*This is a concept model and will not be released for sale. *[Emphasis mine]

Looks like the pocketwatch is a pure "proof of concept" exercise and will not be available to the public.

I expect from now until we see a wristwatch implementation of this technology from Citizen (late 2019/early 2020?), they will be busy refining manufacturing and testing protocols as well as working to reduce the overall size of the movement.

Very exciting stuff; but patience is the key here, methinks.

HTH


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

For judging the size I would consider instead the battery, the coil and the size of the font. Even with 1cm battery the diameter appears t be 3 times, then 3cm which seems reasonable


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gaijin said:


> I expect from now until we see a wristwatch implementation of this technology from Citizen (late 2019/early 2020?), they will be busy refining manufacturing and testing protocols as well as working to reduce the overall size of the movement.
> 
> Very exciting stuff; but patience is the key here, methinks.
> 
> HTH


Noooooo.

I want one now!!


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

A concern is that LEs will come first in 2019 to be followed much later by the serially produced ones. 
I could go for the PW version,although keeping it in the light while carrying it around is a challenge.


----------



## Hans Moleman

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gaijin said:


> So what's all this, "... [AT cut crystal] minimizes the impact of gravitational acceleration caused by changes in position and sweeping arm movements?"
> 
> The graph in the video shows about a -10 to +3 milliseconds/day variation in a tuning fork-shaped oscillator due to positional orientation.
> 
> As our measurement techniques become more sophisticated, should we be testing watches for rate at Dial Up, Dial Down, Crown Up, Crown Down, Crown Left and Crown Right positions? And then store the watch at the optimum position?
> 
> Wow! Learn something new every day.


Initially I called that bull**i*

But a search revealed otherwise.



> Typical values of g-sensitivity run from 1x10-7 for low cost AT cut resonators


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Hans Moleman said:


> Initially I called that bull**i*
> 
> But a search revealed otherwise.


Could make an estimate based on difference in gravity gradient. Will read that link first.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'm kind of interested in how they plan to handle the accuracy component of this exceptionally precise watch when it hit's the market someday. It would be nice if it came electronically set from the factory to accurate time, to the minute and second and the only correction the user would have would be the hour hand. Sorry 1/2 time zones. Citizen could offer lifetime time adjustments free as part of their support.

It would be interesting if they wanted to show what a sweeping second hand could look like with that many vibrations, they can put a lot of beats/s, and I would think it would be truly impressive. I would sacrifice some battery life for the smoothest second hand the market has ever seen.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> It would be interesting if they wanted to show what a sweeping second hand could look like with that many vibrations, they can put a lot of beats/s, and I would think it would be truly impressive. I would sacrifice some battery life for the smoothest second hand the market has ever seen.


The number of steps a second hand takes, each second, is, of course, nothing to do with the frequency of the oscillator. Or, at least, it hasn't been since the Beta 21. They could make a perfectly smooth, stepless motion of they so chose, but given that their marketing bumf makes such a big deal of how every component has been geared for maximum power-efficiency, I think it's safe to bet that Citizen will stick with the good old dead-beat approach.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Do you think if we asked very nicely citizen would do us a forum special edition?


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> Do you think if we asked very nicely citizen would do us a forum special edition?


One could ask...it might not be crazy-expensive if we're talking, say, engraving on a steel caseback. But the numbers might be a problem; there aren't that many inmates in this asylum.

I agree with Tom. Bulova puts a big honkin' 2016 battery in a Precisionist and it lasts a year. That means we can estimate the Precisionist sweep rate translates to 3x the power draw. Tie that in with the extra power consumption with the oscillator. They're only saying 6 months PR; a year's more common with the newer models. At best, it sounds like you'd have pretty minimal PR, and that's just inviting complaints.

OK, let's ask the elephant in the room question.

What does this mean for the A010 and A040? If our schedule estimates are decent, probably nothing for 2 years at least.

Some of this is, can the 0100 be produced in moderate volume (to match A010 and A040 numbers) and at reasonable prices? If not, then this might remain like the Eco Drive One...a super-premium kind of offering, as much about showing Citizen's technical chops as making a ton of money.

But, if they match the feature set of the A040, and it can be produced in needed volume at decent cost...perhaps we see the A0x0's knocked down a level, from The Citizen/Chronomaster to Exceed. Bye-bye, G530.

Who's in charge of the DeLorean this week?


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> I'm kind of interested in how they plan to handle the accuracy component of this exceptionally precise watch when it hit's the market someday. It would be nice if it came electronically set from the factory to accurate time, to the minute and second and the only correction the user would have would be the hour hand. Sorry 1/2 time zones. Citizen could offer lifetime time adjustments free as part of their support.
> 
> It would be interesting if they wanted to show what a sweeping second hand could look like with that many vibrations, they can put a lot of beats/s, and I would think it would be truly impressive. I would sacrifice some battery life for the smoothest second hand the market has ever seen.


While 1 spy is significantly better than 5 spy, I don't think setting the watch is a problem.

I like to keep my A010 within 1 or 2 seconds anyway. At the 1 spy level, manual setting is fine.
After a couple of years it could be 2 seconds out (which is massive compared to manual setting), so there's no point in a fancy synchronisation method.

As for smooth seconds hand, that doesn't interest me at all.
I can't see any advantage in it.
Mind you, my grail watch is a JLC Geophysic True Second, so I really do like dead beat seconds.
That said, if Seiko added TC to spring drive I'd consider one.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Before I make the effort, what is going to be "special" about our edition? Can we even get more than 10 of us to commit? Finally who is willing to pay say USD 5K or more?


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Before I make the effort, what is going to be "special" about our edition? Can we even get more than 10 of us to commit? Finally who is willing to pay say USD 5K or more?


An engraved case back ought to be relatively doable. A unique dial colour and / or WUS logo _à la_ the various project watches on the CMW forum might be more of a stretch. Certainly a big ask for such small numbers. I would have expected the minimum ask (even assuming Citizen are open to such a thing) to be upwards of a hundred units.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Tom-HK said:


> An engraved case back ought to be relatively doable. A unique dial colour and / or WUS logo _à la_ the various project watches on the CMW forum might be more of a stretch. Certainly a big ask for such small numbers. I would have expected the minimum ask (even assuming Citizen are open to such a thing) to be upwards of a hundred units.


Tom you realize we do not have a 100 who "live" here. Maybe ~10 who would be willing to pay Big Bucks. I am interested in more responses.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

The advantage to asking now would be the Citizen probably hasn't even tooled up for a production run, so they might be more open to the thought of setting aside 10-20 watches for an F9 version when they get going in 2 years. 

Also they would want to put out their own LE's and things first so it might mean being a bit late to the Cal.0100 party for those interested. 

I would probably need 1-2 years to save anyway so unless the hypothetical watch had a hypothetical payment deadline before then I don't think I could. Deposits could work.


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Before I make the effort, what is going to be "special" about our edition? Can we even get more than 10 of us to commit? Finally who is willing to pay say USD 5K or more?


If these are big bucks when they come out, I'll wait a bit for the 'normal' versions.
Similar price to the current A0x0 range would be fine i.e. around the ¥ 300,000 JPY mark.

Much as I love HAQ and Citizen, 5k USD is silly money for a Citizen.

Now if Omega brought out a high frequency, TC HAQ movement and put it in an Aqua Terra or SMP case, 5k all day long. Unfortunately they seem to hate quartz (Look at the horrible dumbed down last quartz ATs).


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I will wait for more responses. I will start to talk to Citizen but without any commitment from any of us.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'd consider springing for one, but it's going to depend on the price and the overall package.

I could go with just the WUS logo, the W, with f9 underneath, as a caseback engraving.


----------



## Ahriman4891

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'd like to at least see a render of the watch and some information before committing. If it's good-looking, reasonably sized, made of Citizen's proprietary Titanium alloy and has at least 100m WR, 5K USD would be "reasonable". 6K would be pushing it, maybe if the WUS edition got a really nice exclusive dial color/texture, I could think about it. Please no WUS logo, in fact no writing on the dial except "CITIZEN".


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

might be early next year before images and specs are released.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> ...Much as I love HAQ and Citizen, 5k USD is silly money for a Citizen...


Is any other manufacturer offering an 8.4MHz watch with thermocompensation for less than 5K USD?
Is any other manufacturer offering an 8.4MHz watch with thermocompensation for any amount?
Is there any watch available that can beat that constant(!) precision for 5K USD or less?
Is there any watch available that can beat that constant(!) precision for any amount (I'm talking about watches not clocks that are attached to the wrist!)?
Why is 5K USD silly money for it if there is no alternative for what it offers?!
5K USD is a lot of money - sure it is - but certainly not silly money for the most precise watch, in my opinion.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Clearly for most folks here 1 s/yr, and 8.4mhz would be enough. I was looking at it from a broader marketing scheme. The most powerful statement apple makes with its watch is that every watch in the world is showing the exact same second, not that it's accurate to 50ms or that it has TC. It's powerful because you can see it.

The Bulova and GS Spring Drive line market the sweep of the second hand to display that you have something special inside the case. Heck even Rolex marketed the sweeping hand as a sign of excellence through the years.

In the watch market this watch will compete against, RC, RX, Bluetooth watches in the accuracy sales. To say that this watch is only as accurate as the person setting it and the reference they are using, does it a great disservice if all these watches display different times, while every properly operating connected watch is showing a more accurate time. Factory setting addresses this and is a nice marketing ploy.

As far as battery life, you can look on the Bulova thread, or look at Apple owners, or generic ETA quartz movements. Battery life seems to be of most importance to the folks that say they will never own one. Very few people realize how much effort Swatch put into battery life or that they are significantly better than Ronda. No one is complaining about Bulova. Apple managed to sell 20mil last year with the relatively weak battery life.

IMO the ability to keep your watch in sock drawer for 6 mo's as opposed to 2 or 3 will not result in increased sales, I'm guessing Grand Seiko buyers would notice a say 60 b/s or whatever big number they choose on the Citizen, along with the accuracy, that might result in sales at Spring Drive pricing. Most folks equate movement beats in a mechanical or vibrations in quartz to beats of a second hand (because of Bulova probably) use it. Take the major complaint, the dead beat second hand, of mechanical buyers off the table.

As far as a special addition for us, I doubt we could agree on a dial color, size, band, font, price, markers, or even the inscription on the back, to ensure adequate sales . I could be wrong.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> One could ask...it might not be crazy-expensive if we're talking, say, engraving on a steel caseback. But the numbers might be a problem; there aren't that many inmates in this asylum.
> 
> I agree with Tom. Bulova puts a big honkin' 2016 battery in a Precisionist and it lasts a year. That means we can estimate the Precisionist sweep rate translates to 3x the power draw. Tie that in with the extra power consumption with the oscillator. They're only saying 6 months PR; a year's more common with the newer models. At best, it sounds like you'd have pretty minimal PR, and that's just inviting complaints.
> 
> OK, let's ask the elephant in the room question.
> 
> What does this mean for the A010 and A040? If our schedule estimates are decent, probably nothing for 2 years at least.
> 
> Some of this is, can the 0100 be produced in moderate volume (to match A010 and A040 numbers) and at reasonable prices? If not, then this might remain like the Eco Drive One...a super-premium kind of offering, as much about showing Citizen's technical chops as making a ton of money.
> 
> But, if they match the feature set of the A040, and it can be produced in needed volume at decent cost...perhaps we see the A0x0's knocked down a level, from The Citizen/Chronomaster to Exceed. Bye-bye, G530.
> 
> Who's in charge of the DeLorean this week?


Most owners of Precisionist watches get 2-3 yrs. if not more. I haven't had my Precisionist chrono long enough to know yet but my Surveyor is in the middle of it's 2nd year on the factory battery, so the smooth sweeping hand isn't that expensive to run. I'd bet the Precisionist can last as long, assuming you're not too "happy" using the spinning top of a chornograph (OK, I admit I run it more than I should just to see that thing spin stupid invisible fast).

I personally would wager the 0100 movement will be as you describe Gangrel, a super-premium offering, with Citizen just showing it can do this kind of ridiculously accurate movement to exercise their engineering prowess in the industry. This whole thing comes across like a car company's "we did it just because we can", like Ford building the GT40 or when Dodge came out with the original Viper; makes no sense otherwise. Hopefully some of the tech trickles into their main offerings over time, but to be honest, except for the "lunatics" around here virtually no one cares for that kind of accuracy. When I was telling my wife the other day her only reply was "yeah, an engineer like you would care but what I have now is good enough". The mass of the market would say the same unless the price wasn't much different than a regular quartz offering (very, very unlikely)

Let's face it, WIS's are few and far between and most of them are crazy about mechanicals, not HAQ. We are truly a tiny group among the few. ...


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Short of Time-nuts I believe are the most ardant about watch accuracy on the Web.


----------



## Bill R W

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I could certainly see wanting/buying one and would understand it might be more expensive than current models of The Citizen. But I would want to see what it looked like (case material, dial, bracelet or strap, etc.) and how it worked (IAHH).

I wonder whether Citizen might be more receptive to letting us order in the first wave whatever model(s) they produce than to making a forum specific model.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Bill R W said:


> I could certainly see wanting/buying one and would understand it might be more expensive than current models of The Citizen. But I would want to see what it looked like (case material, dial, bracelet or strap, etc.) and how it worked (IAHH).
> 
> I wonder whether Citizen might be more receptive to letting us order in the first wave whatever model(s) they produce than to making a forum specific model.


Maybe not directly from Citizen, but through its boutiques?


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I just got some new information. Watches may appear by the end of 2019, and unknown whether LE or not.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

So there may be renders for 2019 Baselworld, but very likely nothing before. And even that could be optimistic.



> I'd like to at least see a render of the watch and some information before committing. If it's good-looking, reasonably sized, made of Citizen's proprietary Titanium alloy and has at least 100m WR, 5K USD would be "reasonable". 6K would be pushing it, maybe if the WUS edition got a really nice exclusive dial color/texture, I could think about it. Please no WUS logo, in fact no writing on the dial except "CITIZEN".


A special caseback engraving doesn't much tweak major processes. I think that would also be possible with the smallest number of orders. A custom dial? If we start by assuming they'll go with an interesting dial like the recent Chronomaster LEs...this'd cost a ton, and the min order would likely be big. Custom indices and hands? That might work, but there's also plausible market confusion if that's it. You'd generally want some dial-side marking to ID it quickly.

How about...if it's a numbered limited edition, which Citizen does do...we ask to reserve #90-99. I'd be surprised if we went over 10.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

we might have to wait until next Basel. Easier said than done to not stay spun up.


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Is any other manufacturer offering an 8.4MHz watch with thermocompensation for less than 5K USD?
> Is any other manufacturer offering an 8.4MHz watch with thermocompensation for any amount?
> Is there any watch available that can beat that constant(!) precision for 5K USD or less?
> Is there any watch available that can beat that constant(!) precision for any amount (I'm talking about watches not clocks that are attached to the wrist!)?
> Why is 5K USD silly money for it if there is no alternative for what it offers?!
> 5K USD is a lot of money - sure it is - but certainly not silly money for the most precise watch, in my opinion.


I've happily spent a quarter of a million Yen on a 5 spy Citizen.
However the number of people willing to spend that on a Japanese quartz watch is quite limited.

Double or treble that price to get to 1 spy, and the number of buyers will be tiny.

I'm just saying, for me personally, I'd spend $2k or $3k again to get 1 spy, but at $5k I'll just live with those extra 4 seconds.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> I've happily spent a quarter of a million Yen on a 5 spy Citizen.
> However the number of people willing to spend that on a Japanese quartz watch is quite limited.
> 
> Double or treble that price to get to 1 spy, and the number of buyers will be tiny.
> 
> I'm just saying, for me personally, I'd spend $2k or $3k again to get 1 spy, but at $5k I'll just live with those extra 4 seconds.


 anywhere else but here, nearly no sales at $5K. Here maybe a few would do it, including me. Prefer not to have to wait until Basel 2019 to see actual watch models.


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

To me I am not interested in a limited edition nor in a WUS branded release.

At the same time I do not understand why a 0100 based watch should cost 2x or 3x the price of a standard Chronomaster. Citizen spent money for the research and development and they are willing for sure to get some money back. I can't believe they did it all only to get a supremacy in accuracy or for prestige or to get advertising. So a watch that could cost too much would never sell while a reasonably priced watch would be a good success. In the end 1spy is excellent but 5spy is not bad so as hughesyn said many people could think unconvenient to move to the new watch if it costs too much.

I thought also what happened to the first Astron in 1969, but the gap between mechanical and quartz was HUGE and that could justify the HUGE price of the Astron. Instead here we have just a better and integrated implementation of existing technologies so a HUGE price wouldn't be justified.

Anyway these are just speculations: let's sit down a see what happens, being confident in good news. In the end I have already a 0spy (!!!) watch, my Casio OCW-S100 so... who cares ?!?!?


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> I've happily spent a quarter of a million Yen on a 5 spy Citizen.
> However the number of people willing to spend that on a Japanese quartz watch is quite limited.
> 
> Double or treble that price to get to 1 spy, and the number of buyers will be tiny.
> 
> I'm just saying, for me personally, I'd spend $2k or $3k again to get 1 spy, but at $5k I'll just live with those extra 4 seconds.


So the question is how quickly and how you will the spend $2-3k in those extra 4 seconds? :-d


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I think the price issue is recouping the development costs, in a market where sales numbers won't be big.

Of course, that may lead to a situation like the Eco Drive One, with the $6k LE, but probably $3k standard production. Especially if they're willing to keep the markup down, and let it serve as a technical prowess statement.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Perhaps it comes down to how many watches they expect to sell in a year,and how fast they want to recoup their R&D money?


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Maybe not how fast; that generally implies they want it all back. They may only want to recoup some of it, at least within a sane time frame. The parallel would be the insane level of effort expended on watches for the chronometer trials. They weren't production models; they were hand-made, hand-tuned, and very carefully coddled pieces. The value of the effort was in marketing...being able to claim "we won!" when that sort of thing really did matter.

Claiming "really accurate!" doesn't make for good marketing copy. "Most accurate watch in the world" even with an asterisk...that does, as does even saying "makers of ...."


----------



## sleepyhead123

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Anyone have an idea on price and/or size of this thing? I'm game.

And I have no qualms about spending "a lot" on Citizen given the only one I've ever owned (and still own) is an AR5014-04E.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Presently the movement is a proof-of-concept and apparently only fits in a pocket watch. None of us have a real clue what it'll cost, when it will hit the market (the estimate is next year at the earliest) or what the product line will look like.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

It also will depend on the model and whether it is LE.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

And things like choice of case material. Was thinking of this earlier. Dial from the black Eco Drive One, carbon fiber case. Mmmm.  But I have no idea what special materials Citizen's comfortable with, other than the cermet.

Might be a fun speculative question. What cool, interesting material would be the best match for an ultra-accurate watch? Eco Drive One integrated cermet for rigidity reasons as well as hardness; that was driven by the ultra-slim movement. Is there some material that says ultra-accurate to you? Or if not ultra-accurate, maybe just go with cutting-edge.

I suspect that it'll start in no existing line, like the Eco Drive One; it'll be a line of its own.


----------



## odd_and_vintage_fan

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Start with the Hublot Magic Gold where they took 24kt gold and injected it into voids in a ceramic foam leading to a 14kt gold alloy that's practically scratch resistant.

Lower that down to 10kt so they can use white gold and get a stealth luxury thing going. Most accurate movement in a 10kt case that's unremarkable when viewed from 10 ft away but won't scratch or tarnish.

I'd also be ok with a resin case so I have a chance of getting one someday. It can be like a more punctual Timex camper.


----------



## Ahriman4891

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I would be fine with Citizen's Alpha Titanium or whatever they call their most advanced alloy. Significantly harder than steel, light (may be important if the watch ends up on the bigger side), hypoallergenic, and Citizen already has ample experience with it and tooling to work it, so it shouldn't drive up the cost too much.

My main worry is that they'll screw up the dial proportions, or overload it with pointless text, or make an ugly oversized case.


----------



## sleepyhead123

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> Presently the movement is a proof-of-concept and apparently only fits in a pocket watch. None of us have a real clue what it'll cost, when it will hit the market (the estimate is next year at the earliest) or what the product line will look like.


That's too bad. Not the best way to celebrate your 100th.


----------



## GlennO

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'd be happy if they just plonked the movement in a CTQ57-0954. I'd probably sell most of my other watches.


----------



## Pascal

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> Wow.
> 
> Put this in a Chronomaster style case and I'm in!


So am I ! I planned to buy the AQ4020 to own the most superlative watch ever (in my opinion, of course) but I now know I won't and I'll wait for Bâle 2019...


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Pascal said:


> So am I ! I planned to buy the AQ4020 to own the most superlative watch ever (in my opinion, of course) but I now know I won't and I'll wait for Bâle 2019...


Not just in your opinion, but in actual fact!

You've got a long wait for the new movement though...


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Pascal said:


> So am I ! I planned to buy the AQ4020 to own the most superlative watch ever (in my opinion, of course) but I now know I won't and I'll wait for Bâle 2019...


You'll likely have to wait much longer than that. Shrinking a pocket-watch sized movement to fit in a wrist watch, even a bulky one the size of the latest Citizen and Seiko GPS watches, is not a simple task. After they get it shrunk in size to fit in a watch then there's more development work to turn it into a production worthy product (ie make sure there's a valid production process and yields to spec are to company standards) and then qualifying it for production quantities. That's not an easy task in the least.

I don't see all of that work happening in 1 year unless Citizen throws a LOT of resources at this project. From my experience in the semiconductor business for 30+ years I'd say 2-3 years is more like it.

My suggestion: if you like what's on the market right now, buy it. I personally can easily live with a 5 sec/yr. watch without any problem.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I think it's been mentioned that production models are probably late 2019. I've noted that means we're not gonna hear much more until Baselworld 2019.

Remember that the Unitas 649x is a pocket watch movement, in its origin. 36mm. It goes fine onto the wrist...generally on larger watches, but 42 is still, I'd say, sane. Too big for me but sane. And Tourby has it in 40mm cases now.

There's plenty of other stuff to worry about, tho, as noted. This is a completely new electronics package for a watch. Late next year is 18 months, so I am cautiously optimistic they'll meet that.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I mentioned late 2019 from a source I cannot cite.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> You'll likely have to wait much longer than that. Shrinking a pocket-watch sized movement to fit in a wrist watch, even a bulky one the size of the latest Citizen and Seiko GPS watches, is not a simple task.


I believe Citizen cased the movement in a pocket watch partly so as not to presuppose any particular direction that the final wrist watches might take, and also partly (as they say) as a nod to their earliest watches in this anniversary year.

I see nothing to suggest that the movement is too big to fit into a wrist watch. I have a Citizen HAQ pocket watch : an Exceed EBA74-2731, cal. 0330, and it is positively dainty. It has a decidedly wrist watch-sized movement and Citizen have just stuck it into a small, wrist watch-sized case and called it a pocket watch. So I would have no concerns about the size of the new movement based solely on its current casing.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> Not just in your opinion, but in actual fact!...


You wish... but if you would _really_ _know_ you would not say so!


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Uncertain hoe much information we will get over the long waiting period.


----------



## Bill R W

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I have been interested in getting one of the solar powered 5 spy The Citizen models. The announcement that they are going to build 1 spy models makes me want to hold off. I understand there is no practical difference for me between 5 spy and 1 spy. But I will admire the engineering that produces 1 spy. Maybe this effect would only be the case for members of the HAQ forum, probably a small market. Would this possible effect give Citizen an incentive to get models out in 2019?


----------



## Igorek

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Why do they have to tease us like that the watches will be revealed somewhere in 2019 that is 1 year or longer to wait.


----------



## chris01

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Igorek said:


> Why do they have to tease us like that the watches will be revealed somewhere in 2019 that is 1 year or longer to wait.


Because some people are daft enough to believe they'll get their "one watch to rule them all" in 2019, and will therefore hold off buying what's actually available now. When it doesn't arrive "on time", they will be so far invested in the idea, that they'll grumble like crazy but wait for another year. Meanwhile Citizen will do whatever they want to do, regardless. It's easy but pointless to waste your energy second-guessing the business plans of any company you don't work for (and even then, good luck with that).


----------



## Bill R W

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Not sure a decision for me to hold off would be daft. I have a number of watches in several categories. So I don't need any more watches. Just a desire. Looking for watches that are interesting to me.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I wonder if they would not have said anything this early, were this not the 100th anniversary. And the cynical side of me tosses in...if they had more to trumpet. But I didn't see any bombshells from Baselworld this year, from anyone.

I'm with Bill on the point that I'm mostly looking for interesting watches...the next one is likely to be an Omega co-axial. And this one will count as interesting. Still, I think gaps that are this long risk creating a 'smoke and mirrors' image, and thus a predisposition of failure. The first prototypes with the Senfine movement were out 2 years ago; I haven't heard squat since. Zenith didn't mention anything at Baselworld about new models using version 2 of the single-piece compliant oscillator they debuted in the Defy Lab. That was September, but IIRC they said they expected standard-production versions this year.


----------



## Worker

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Sub'd to this thread.

I imagine it will be quite the wait, but looking forward to something in the next couple years.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

Bill R W said:


> Not sure a decision for me to hold off would be daft. I have a number of watches in several categories. So I don't need any more watches. Just a desire. Looking for watches that are interesting to me.


Bill may I suggest exploring a HAP (High-accuracy Pendulum) collection, barring a few portability issues and the minor annoyance of having to wind it occasionally, it can put most HAQ's to shame at under 3.65spy.

https://www.theguardian.com/science...n-harrison-vindicated-250-years-absurd-claims

Edit: Genuinely thought this was news today, it somehow creeped into the most read bit on the guardian website. Old news.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Because it's Harrison's 325th birthday, and Google did a Harrison doodle today.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-caliber-0100-eco-drive-movement-introducing

Surprise coverage. 

A really nice front and back shot, and movement size too...it's 33.3 x 3 mm, basically. The Nomos DUW 3001 (aka neomatik) is 28.8 x 3.2; the Metro neomatik watch is 35 x 8. Even with no size reduction, it seems something like a 39 mm case size and around 8-9 mm thick should be possible.

And I love the closing paragraph:



> Visit Citizenwatch.com for a wider look at their work, and scratch your head, as I did, to find out that this achievement isn't more prominent on their website; if I were them, I'd have laser etched the press release in incandescent letters 10 kilometers across on the surface of the Moon. See you in a year.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-caliber-0100-eco-drive-movement-introducing
> 
> Surprise coverage.
> 
> A really nice front and back shot, and movement size too...it's 33.3 x 3 mm, basically. The Nomos DUW 3001 (aka neomatik) is 28.8 x 3.2; the Metro neomatik watch is 35 x 8. Even with no size reduction, it seems something like a 39 mm case size and around 8-9 mm thick should be possible.
> 
> And I love the closing paragraph:


Nothing new in that article,AFAIK. It is not straightforward to find information from the main link.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Nope, nothing new in the link. We've posted it, I suspect, earlier. Jack was just saying Citizen's not giving this the ups it deserves.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Nope, nothing new in the link. We've posted it, I suspect, earlier. Jack was just saying Citizen's not giving this the ups it deserves.


The real marketing push will come when they have watches to display. I just hope they're attractive designs and not JDM.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> The real marketing push will come when they have watches to display. I just hope they're attractive designs and not JDM.


80-20 it's JDM at first, is my guess. Could be wrong, as the Eco Drive One got a global release. We'll see. IF our timeline guess is right, and the next key date is Baselworld next year, then...if it's JDM it'll be handled in a low-key way. If it's global, figure it'll be featured prominently.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

My nearly opaque crystal ball says JDM first followed by US and EU.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> My nearly opaque crystal ball says JDM first followed by US and EU.


The only reason I'd guess a global intro (or at least NA/JDM/EU) is Grand Seiko. Seiko finally got a clue and started selling their finest outside than Japan, that must be bringing in some serious yen into the corporate coffers. Citizen I'm sure took note of this. They also spent a lot to develop the new movement, selling outside of a limited home market has got to be the best way to recoup that investment.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> The only reason I'd guess a global intro (or at least NA/JDM/EU) is Grand Seiko. Seiko finally got a clue and started selling their finest outside than Japan, that must be bringing in some serious yen into the corporate coffers. Citizen I'm sure took note of this. They also spent a lot to develop the new movement, selling outside of a limited home market has got to be the bet way to recoup that investment.


I don't really think the Seiko argument holds up because they haven't increased distribution on the Chronomasters. The recoup argument tracks with the Eco Drive One. Plus, also in parallel with the Eco Drive One, it's about technical prowess. "See? We're serious. We're not cheap quartz, we have major technical chops."


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Too much time to contemplate, before commercial ptoducts appear.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

With all due respect to Mr. Moderator, if our football pundits can start making Super Bowl predictions now, before even the NFL draft...then we can certainly have fun indulging in our own speculations. Hey, our trains of thought have as much basis in fact as any astrologer's.


----------



## gaijin

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> With all due respect to Mr. Moderator, if our football pundits can start making Super Bowl predictions now, before even the NFL draft...then we can certainly have fun indulging in our own speculations. Hey, our trains of thought have as much basis in fact as any astrologer's.


In that case, yes, I will definitely purchase the GMT version of this watch - you know the one, it displays Day and Date, GMT time, accuracy to 1 s/y ... oh, and lots of lume and extra points for a moon phase complication.

I'm all over it.

Sure hope it's not JDM only ...

But seriously, folks. I'm not getting spun up over this movement yet. It could esasily be two years before we see any writwatch models available for sale in ANY market.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Mr. Moderator is not intending to squash reasonable speculations. What else to do until Basel 2019?


----------



## chris01

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Mr. Moderator is not intending to squash reasonable speculations. What else to do until Basel 2019?


Get used to the idea of waiting until Basel 2020.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



chris01 said:


> Get used to the idea of waiting until Basel 2020.


No!!!!!


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

At least we know something is coming from Citizen.

The ball is in Seiko's court now: where's the replacement for 9F?

If Seiko did have something in the pipeline, I bet the 1 spy claim from Citizen has made them think.
They already needed to step up compared to ETA and Citizen, so I doubt they will want to bring out a new movement after 25 years that isn't quite as good.


----------



## Ahriman4891

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

2019 is the 50th anniversary of the Seiko Astron -- if they do have anything in the pipeline, next year would be the time to unveil it.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Both Seiko and Citizen producing 1 s/y watches for 2019?


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Talked to the AD in Manhattan. They do not take Preorders or guarantee you can get one of their watches.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Nothing new per se but a bit of info I found just now, as I was checking to see if there was any news. Hope springeth eternal as they say.

Anyway, found this article:

https://newatlas.com/citizen-0100-super-accurate-pocket-watch/54147/

They talk about the AT cut and its angle, but the key piece was this:



> According to Citizen, the 0100 can run for six months even if you forget it in your pocket. This is because there are several energy-conserving functions, including a hibernation mode where the watch continues to mark time, but doesn't move the hands until it's exposed to light again, at which point it shifts them to the correct time.


OK, so in *low power* mode, it's only good for 6 months. That's quite short, if memory serves. Believe 18 to 24 months has been the spec on other models that incorporate power saving. So that suggests it's taking something like 3x the power just for the timekeeping aspect. Thus, our suspicion that the high-freq AT not having been used is due to short battery life, gets a pretty solid boost.


----------



## Rawim

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Nothing new per se but a bit of info I found just now, as I was checking to see if there was any news. Hope springeth eternal as they say.
> 
> Anyway, found this article:
> 
> https://newatlas.com/citizen-0100-super-accurate-pocket-watch/54147/
> 
> They talk about the AT cut and its angle, but the key piece was this:
> 
> OK, so in *low power* mode, it's only good for 6 months. That's quite short, if memory serves. Believe 18 to 24 months has been the spec on other models that incorporate power saving. So that suggests it's taking something like 3x the power just for the timekeeping aspect. Thus, our suspicion that the high-freq AT not having been used is due to short battery life, gets a pretty solid boost.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Nothing new per se but a bit of info I found just now, as I was checking to see if there was any news. Hope springeth eternal as they say.
> 
> Anyway, found this article:
> 
> https://newatlas.com/citizen-0100-super-accurate-pocket-watch/54147/
> 
> They talk about the AT cut and its angle, but the key piece was this:
> 
> OK, so in *low power* mode, it's only good for 6 months. That's quite short, if memory serves. Believe 18 to 24 months has been the spec on other models that incorporate power saving. So that suggests it's taking something like 3x the power just for the timekeeping aspect. Thus, our suspicion that the high-freq AT not having been used is due to short battery life, gets a pretty solid boost.


Nice find. And good point, I think I would have to agree with you on the reasoning.

-Rawim


----------



## dannyking

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Looks beautiful though!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Holy smokes if 0100 does what they claim, it's revolutionary. GS really has to get in gear with their own quartz movements.


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I am interested in part because of the whole MHz collection that I have going and in part because of the promise of more temperature points being measured and a rate of 1 SPY. I don't, however, see this is being revolutionary and I am fully aware that a 1 SPY claim may well turn out to be 2 or 3 SPY in real life. And let's not forget that a Citizen cannot be regulated in the same way as a GS. So whilst I am able to trim my '10 SPY' GS down to below 5 SPY (for my wearing pattern and climatic conditions), I wouldn't be able to improve upon whatever out-of-the-box accuracy I would get from a cal. 0100.

That being said, if the 0100 comes with an independently adjustable hour hand amd a perpetual calendar (or no calendar at all), then it gains more Brownie points against GS in my book. And let's not forget that those are technologies already employed in Citizen's top HAQs, so it wouldn't take a revolution (or indeed any innovation) to achieve this.


----------



## Rawim

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tomchicago said:


> Holy smokes if 0100 does what they claim, it's revolutionary. GS really has to get in gear with their own quartz movements.


I am sure Seiko R&D has something cooking. It could just be that Citizen is the first to get something small enough and scalable enough to bring to market.

-Rawim


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Rawim said:


> I am sure Seiko R&D has something cooking. It could just be that Citizen is the first to get something small enough and scalable enough to bring to market.
> 
> -Rawim


Perhaps so, but the 9F movement's 25 years old and still no IAHH. Seiko doesn't have a great track record of innovation in their purely quartz movements. They were years late, for example, with solar quartz relative to Citizen. Last, Seiko's got the broadest range of watches in the world, and the gap to 2nd is enormous. Price range...Seiko 5 to Eichi II and the uncommon Credor high-art pieces. Movements...very basic mechanical, fairly high-end mechanical, basic quartz, solar quartz, TC quartz, RF, GPS, kinetic, and Spring Drive. Citizen is much more focused, and this is their bailiwick.


----------



## Rawim

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Perhaps so, but the 9F movement's 25 years old and still no IAHH. Seiko doesn't have a great track record of innovation in their purely quartz movements. They were years late, for example, with solar quartz relative to Citizen. Last, Seiko's got the broadest range of watches in the world, and the gap to 2nd is enormous. Price range...Seiko 5 to Eichi II and the uncommon Credor high-art pieces. Movements...very basic mechanical, fairly high-end mechanical, basic quartz, solar quartz, TC quartz, RF, GPS, kinetic, and Spring Drive. Citizen is much more focused, and this is their bailiwick.


All excellent points, and perhaps the best use of "bailiwick" I have heard in years. You are right Citizen is clearly at the forefront. But I imagine a company as big as Seiko must have a couple guys tinkering and working on a new or improved HAQ movement. But yes Citizen will likely be who we look to for quartz innovation for the foreseeable future.

-Rawim


----------



## Tom-HK

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Perhaps so, but the 9F movement's 25 years old and still no IAHH. Seiko doesn't have a great track record of innovation in their purely quartz movements. They were years late, for example, with solar quartz relative to Citizen. Last, Seiko's got the broadest range of watches in the world, and the gap to 2nd is enormous. Price range...Seiko 5 to Eichi II and the uncommon Credor high-art pieces. Movements...very basic mechanical, fairly high-end mechanical, basic quartz, solar quartz, TC quartz, RF, GPS, kinetic, and Spring Drive. Citizen is much more focused, and this is their bailiwick.


Setting aside, for a moment, the fact that Seiko were first to market with a quartz watch of any kind, there's only one year between Citizen's first solar powered watch (1976) and Seiko's (1977) and let's not forget that Seiko had thermocompensation before Citizen and the first 5 SPY thermocompensated watch.

And whilst perpetual calendars and other nifty features are not found on GSs, they have existed on lower-end Seikos for a while. I would definitely say that Citizen puts a better range of features in its top line of HAQs, but conversely if we compare the E510 to the G530, we can see that they have neglected their more affordable lines.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

OK, but even if Seiko had the solar, they did nothing with it for a long time. Maybe that's just because it stayed JDM; I'd have to look at the catalogs of the period. But I don't think there's that much.

EDIT: from what I'm seeing, it looks like they did solar with their digital models. I was considering strictly analog pieces.

And for the last few years, Seiko's been focused on mechanicals, on reorganizing product lines, and on Astron. They *have* done one update to the 9Fs; the GMT variant just released. Still, tho...Seiko doesn't appear to feel any pressure to dramatically invest in quartz.

And of course, we still don't know if Citizen will in fact pull off a commercial product. Still early, tho. The one I'm more worried about is Zenith, as the Defy Lab's compliant oscillator from last year, is still nowhere in sight.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Citizen said production 0100 models by Basel 2019 didn't they?


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tomchicago said:


> Citizen said production 0100 models by Basel 2019 didn't they?


I do not recall that. In this forum, we speculated it might be 2019 or later before wristwatches were available.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tomchicago said:


> Citizen said production 0100 models by Basel 2019 didn't they?


No, they didn't give any production schedule. They did say this was definitely pre-production. My take at the time was, we won't hear anything until Baselworld 2019. BUT, even if they announce at BW, it may still be for an autumn release. I think that's the general (if pessimistic) interpretation.

The only reason I suspect they announced the Cal 0100 this time around is because it's also the 100th year of the company.


----------



## Miguel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Hi,

From Citizen's global site:

"...While the Cal.0100 will not be available for sale to the public, the accuracy and technology inside the movement will be introduced in future models, set to launch in 2019."

CITIZEN unveils world?s most accurate Cal.0100 Eco-Drive movement with annual accuracy ±1 second at BASELWORLD 2018


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Hodinkee said Citizen said 2019: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-caliber-0100-eco-drive-movement-introducing

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## gaijin

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Hodinkee article says:

"The movement is cased in a pocket watch, but Citizen says that this not-for-sale prototype is a harbinger of things to come and that we can expect to see the technology in regular production watches in 2019."

That is consistent what Miguel reported above:

"...While the Cal.0100 will not be available for sale to the public, the accuracy and technology inside the movement will be introduced in future models, set to launch in 2019."

Looks like we'll probably see watches some time in 2019 that include some of the Cal.0100 technology. The "guaranteed" level of accuracy of the 2019 production models is, of couse, still unknown.

HTH


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

That doesn't clarify, tho, the stage at which the final production models will be by Baselworld. Actually ready for release at/soon after BW? If so I figure we'll hear more before then. Showing prototypes/pre-production could mean an early-mid summer. Pessimist me says more likely September-October 2019, which would be comparable to the Eco Drive One.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Any betters on which will be on sale first, the VHP chrono/GMT or the Citizen 8.4MHz Eco Drive models? :-d


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'm cautiously pumped up for this.


----------



## Rawim

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tomchicago said:


> I'm cautiously pumped up for this.


Me too. Slighty worried about what the MSRP will be.

-Rawim


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Rawim said:


> Me too. Slighty worried about what the MSRP will be.
> 
> -Rawim


To a point it'll depend on the level of execution, which also matters for line positioning. Do they intend to displace the Chronomaster? Is this going to be, if not formally limited...let's call it a specialty production? Kinda like the Eco Drive One?

If it's gonna be the new top of the line regular production, then I'd guess 2500-3000 US for most models, with special editions closer to 4000. OTOH, if it's a specialty piece, closer to 5000, up to 6500-7000 for deluxe limited models.

One consideration is size. The Citizen HAQs are all fairly dressy. If the movement here is large-ish, then another dress piece might not be in order. Sport dress? More heavily sporty? Not that likely if they stay with a 3-hander, but for that reason alone it'd be nice to see. Also a good chance it might not be quite as pricey.


----------



## Rawim

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> To a point it'll depend on the level of execution, which also matters for line positioning. Do they intend to displace the Chronomaster? Is this going to be, if not formally limited...let's call it a specialty production? Kinda like the Eco Drive One?
> 
> If it's gonna be the new top of the line regular production, then I'd guess 2500-3000 US for most models, with special editions closer to 4000. OTOH, if it's a specialty piece, closer to 5000, up to 6500-7000 for deluxe limited models.
> 
> One consideration is size. The Citizen HAQs are all fairly dressy. If the movement here is large-ish, then another dress piece might not be in order. Sport dress? More heavily sporty? Not that likely if they stay with a 3-hander, but for that reason alone it'd be nice to see. Also a good chance it might not be quite as pricey.


Couldn't have said it better myself, primarily because I am at brunch and am about a dozen mimosas in.

-Rawim


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

About the size, the only reason for being big could be the need of a large battery but apart from this I can't see any reason.

About the price, I think it will be positioned on a higher market and so I think the MSRP will be 500-1000 $ more then the other Chronomaster. Maybe the first production will be a special limited edition and therefore > 4000 but after that I think that the "base model" will cost 2500 or just a bit more. If they would cost too much, then the would sell too few.

Of course, what above are all my opinions and hypothesis and are pure speculations. I guess we have to put a prize for who will come closer ^_^


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Remember that the first Eco Drive One models, the standard production was 3500; the LE was 6000. Granted, that was in part because the LE case was all the sintered ceramic/intermetallic stuff. High end, fancy, seriously expensive. But that was the Eco Drive One, where the movement was so thin that overall stability was an issue.

The 0100 is a 33mm movement. THIN enough...< 3 mm. Still, probably looking at a 39 x 9 case or thereabouts. Swiss or German...yeah, fine, dress watch size. Japanese? Larger than usual for dress watches.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Am I a bad person for hoping the power consumption proves too high for solar power to be viable in a wristwatch-sized dial, therefore depriving Citizen of a reason to pollute the dial with a power reserve? My nightmare is this movement will only come in busy-dial form.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> Remember that the first Eco Drive One models, the standard production was 3500; the LE was 6000. Granted, that was in part because the LE case was all the sintered ceramic/intermetallic stuff. High end, fancy, seriously expensive. But that was the Eco Drive One, where the movement was so thin that overall stability was an issue.
> 
> The 0100 is a 33mm movement. THIN enough...< 3 mm. Still, probably looking at a 39 x 9 case or thereabouts. Swiss or German...yeah, fine, dress watch size. Japanese? Larger than usual for dress watches.


How do those dimensions compare with the current Chronomaster?


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



watchcrank said:


> Am I a bad person for hoping the power consumption proves too high for solar power to be viable in a wristwatch-sized dial, therefore depriving Citizen of a reason to pollute the dial with a power reserve? My nightmare is this movement will only come in busy-dial form.


The latest HAQ releases with A060 movement are solar with no power reserve indicator.
So no reason to think they will put one one.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> The latest HAQ releases with A060 movement are solar with no power reserve indicator.
> So no reason to think they will put one one.


I've got several Citizen and Seiko, none of which have a PR. I always thought it was a bit odd they put one on the A010.

tomchicago...the washi-dial Chronomaster (AQ4020) is 39. Can't find its thickness, or the size of the A010/A060.

Side note, looking for that info...Deployant has a writeup of the AQ4020 from May. It mentions the 0100, and says the production models are supposed to be released by BW 2019. So...who knows. Maybe so. One cautionary point for US residents...when the 2017 Eco Drive One models were released, it still took a couple months for them to be available *here*.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



hughesyn said:


> The latest HAQ releases with A060 movement are solar with no power reserve indicator.
> So no reason to think they will put one one.


Thanks for the good news. I was behind the times.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

A good point, is that the 0100 watches may first be released in Japan and months later in the rest of the world.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> A good point, is that the 0100 watches may first be released in Japan and months later in the rest of the world.


Also a safe bet that, like the Eco Drive One:

a) production will be relatively limited
b) it'll be rationed, and Japan is likely to have priority. NOT us.

So it'll be dribs and drabs making it here. I had a rather drawn-out process, and it took an...irritated call from the dealer to the distributor to get mine.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Early adopters will have to go JDM.


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> A good point, is that the 0100 watches may first be released in Japan and months later in the rest of the world.


I use to go in Japan at least once in 2 years (or even once per year) so if I'll like the watch I'll get one for sure ! Next year I'll be 50 so I have a lot of excuses and reasons to buy a good watch hehehehe...


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



dicioccio said:


> I use to go in Japan at least once in 2 years (or even once per year) so if I'll like the watch I'll get one for sure ! Next year I'll be 50 so I have a lot of excuses and reasons to buy a good watch hehehehe...


I went to Vegas for mine.

Of course, for my 60th it's the Hentschel, so.......


----------



## VoxVirtus

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I wonder if fiber optics could carry enough light, thus having numerous small points of entry instead af 2 dimensional solar spread?


tmathes said:


> They do need to be replaced but you can get 20+ years from an EcoDrive rechargeable cell. Those cells are not Li-ion, they're lithium iron phosphate cells, which are optimized for longer life over energy density. There's also other differences:
> 
> - In a watch, the cell is charging most of the time since it's typically exposed to light. That's not true in a mobile electronic device like a cell phone or laptop. What degrades a cell is complete charge/discharge cycles, the 'sweet spot' for long life is keeping the cell between 30-80% of capacity, not letting get below or above that. That's how car makers get years and years out of hybrid and/or plug-ins instead of 2-4 yrs. like a consumer product.
> 
> - Even if capacity drops you likely won't notice it. Citizen typically quotes 1+ years of battery reserve in complete darkness. If you keep the watch exposed to light all the time (ie don't keep it in a drawer all the time), if the capacity drops to, say, 30 days, would you really notice? Not likely.
> 
> The main downside to EcoDrive is a limitation on how the dial is designed and what materials can be used, it severely limits what can be done. What I've noticed is some newer Citizens have the outer ring only as the solar cell, allowing the designer to create more interesting dials. I can't wait to see what Citizen has in store for us, I just hope they don't offer us ridiculously great accuracy in what is an otherwise hideous design (Ecozilla comes to mind).


Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## VoxVirtus

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Indeed, surpassed and tamed.


Tom-HK said:


> It was not possible to properly test Hoptroff's claims, but I do tend to agree. The technology to make this possible is definitely there. I might even go so far as to say that the insanely high 8.4 MHz frequency may not have been strictly necessary in order for Citizen to have achieved this.


Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



VoxVirtus said:


> I wonder if fiber optics could carry enough light, thus having numerous small points of entry instead af 2 dimensional solar spread?
> 
> Sent from my Moto E (4) using Tapatalk


If you look at how an Eco Drive watch is assembled (plenty of YouTube videos of them taken apart), the answer is "no". There's not enough space in such a small case not to mention adding cost.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



VoxVirtus said:


> I wonder if fiber optics could carry enough light, thus having numerous small points of entry instead af 2 dimensional solar spread?


You'll never have enough surface area.


----------



## tomchicago

*Any Citizen 0100 News?*

Any Citizen 0100 news lately? Been quiet... Anyone in Japan?


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Probably won't hear anything until Baselworld 2019. Some of the blogs have suggested it'll actually be released then, but I think the consensus here is, it's a tossup between actual release and model presentation with release to follow later on. (Whenever that may be.)


----------



## 24jewels

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I took a photo of calibre 0100 pocket watch. I can't wait for it to become available even as a pocket watch!


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

If this calibre performs anywhere close to spec, it will be a major milestone and game changer for human timekeeping. Very exciting stuff.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Have to wait for Basel, for new information, I suppose.


----------



## Miguel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



24jewels said:


> I took a photo of calibre 0100 pocket watch. I can't wait for it to become available even as a pocket watch!
> View attachment 13647635


Hi,

What was the diameter of the pocket watch? I could not find this information.

Thanks,

Miguel


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I'd go for that dial and general packaging even in a pocket watch. NOT, I must say, the sapphire case.

Miguel: I might've seen a size given but for right now:
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-caliber-0100-eco-drive-movement-introducing

There's pics of the back, and they do give the size of the movement itself at 33mm. That suggests the total size is 45ish, I'd estimate.


----------



## 24jewels

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Miguel said:


> Hi,
> 
> What was the diameter of the pocket watch? I could not find this information.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Miguel


It was in a glass box. I would guess had similar dimensions to the 1924 pocket watch they also had on display.


----------



## wappinghigh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Can't wait to have this movement in a wrist watch I will be getting one for sure!


----------



## sleepyhead123

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

One of three planned purchases this year already, with the Apollo 8 DSotM and Apollo 11 50th as the other two. I do hope they put it in a classic design and not some gigantic multi-colored multi subdial watch like a lot of their others though. Not a fan of Citizen sports watches.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

If the 0100 comes out in a wristwatch anywhere near claimed performance, it will be a milestone for human timekeeping.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



sleepyhead123 said:


> One of three planned purchases this year already, with the Apollo 8 DSotM and Apollo 11 50th as the other two. I do hope they put it in a classic design and not some gigantic multi-colored multi subdial watch like a lot of their others though. Not a fan of Citizen sports watches.


The only departure from a 3-hander, on the E510 or A0x0 movements, is the PR on the A010. The shots from last year are just straight 3-handers as well. I think the general expectation is, it'll be very much reserved, a la the Chronomasters. I'd like to see touches like Breguet hands, and I think it possible if they want to tie into the pocket watch connection. I fully expect the patterned dials...washi, or the eagle pattern from the 2017 (?) Chronomaster LE, or the like...as options. I'd go so far as to say the initial releases may all be in that mode, unless they do go for a classic RR pocket watch style face.

2 more months and we hope to know more....


----------



## wappinghigh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

What's the likely price range you think?


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wappinghigh said:


> What's the likely price range you think?


My nearly opaque crystal ball thinks the LEs will be around USD 6K.


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wappinghigh said:


> What's the likely price range you think?


My nearly opaque crystal ball thinks the LEs will be around USD 6K.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

The initial Eco Drive One LE was 6k US, which is why we're postulating that as the price point for the 0100 LEs.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

$6,000 USD is stiff for even a HAQ. I would pass at that price.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> The initial Eco Drive One LE was 6k US, which is why we're postulating that as the price point for the 0100 LEs.


True but the 'mass market' EcoDrive Ones are about 1/3 of that. And even then I have to wonder how many are sold globally.

Seiko through their Grand Seiko arm can charge Swiss-like prices globally but I just don't think Citizen can. They haven't spent the time and marketing money to be able to do that like Seiko did, justified or not.

Best way to liken it VW's failed Phaeton sedan. It was the rival of pricey Benzes, BMWs and even their own Audi line in terms of style, luxury and quality but the VW name killed it's chances.


----------



## sleepyhead123

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tomchicago said:


> $6,000 USD is stiff for even a HAQ. I would pass at that price.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I got this new ordered from my dealer from Citizen itself at 25% off.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Wow cool!


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

IIRC, the first non-limited Eco Drive Ones were 3500...so actually about 60% of the LE price. Or that might've been the MSRP on mine, which was one of the 2017 versions. I can't recall for sure.

One aspect is that the Eco Drive One LE used an all-cermet case, and I think cermet is a relatively low yield, high cost material. Great for the ED One because the movement is so insanely thin; cermet gives you the extra rigidity while remaining thin and relatively light. (And HARD.) It's unique to the Eco Drive One, within Citizen's offerings, I believe. I also like it visually, but then I've also got a ship's propeller bronze case, which has a similar color.

But they may go with just the usual suspects of titanium and steel, and leave anything special to the dial. If so, then any LEs may only carry a 15-20% premium.

If it's 6k, then it'll need to appeal visually at the same level as my Hentschel, which...gee, cost about the same.  I actually doubt it'll reach that level; the design language we commonly see from both Seiko and Citizen is a tad too bland. And of course, the ED One wasn't *just* released as a limited; there were 2 or 3 non-limited models that came out at the same time, albeit they weren't quite as interesting. I doubt I'll do the LE model, but hey, I can hope it's too stunning to pass up.


----------



## paulhotte

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I believe I will pay good money for something good....


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> My nearly opaque crystal ball thinks the LEs will be around USD 6K.


Methinks it will be $8k or more for steel/titanium. The conventional size will allow it to be cased in precious metal, in which case it may go to five-figures.

This is a world-first. No one else has anything even remotely close, just like the Eco-drive One. Citizen can go as high as they choose.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> ...Citizen can go as high as they choose.


It is not that simple! Let's not forget the demand side! There is not a huge demand for it. Forget about us as we are representing a very small number and even we would not pay any high amount for it! It's business as usual for Citizen so they have to offer something that they can sell in quantity to recoup expenses and make profit as well. Naturally, it won't be cheap but it will be affordable if becomes available and that is a big *IF*, in my opinion.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> It is not that simple! Let's not forget the demand side! There is not a huge demand for it. Forget about us as we are representing a very small number and even we would not pay any high amount for it! It's business as usual for Citizen so they have to offer something that they can sell in quantity to recoup expenses and make profit as well. Naturally, it won't be cheap but it will be affordable if becomes available and that is a big *IF*, in my opinion.


This is a celebratory watch for their 100th anniversary, released 1 year late. I doubt it will come cheap because this year's Eco-Drive One LE went up in price to $6,400, but Japan only and a improved altic+cermet case. I suspect it will be a showpiece price.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> It is not that simple! Let's not forget the demand side! There is not a huge demand for it. Forget about us as we are representing a very small number and even we would not pay any high amount for it! It's business as usual for Citizen so they have to offer something that they can sell in quantity to recoup expenses and make profit as well. Naturally, it won't be cheap but it will be affordable if becomes available and that is a big *IF*, in my opinion.


Agreed. The Citizen brand isn't prestigious enough to get away with Rolex or even Omega prices.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> Agreed. The Citizen brand isn't prestigious enough to get away with Rolex or even Omega prices.


They are not making the best watches for the English speaking.









Two of these were made and sold for almost $100k USD each in 2017.









This is a 2018 mechanical Campanola using a La Joux-Perret movement, which Citizen owns. Price? $8k.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Methinks it will be $8k or more for steel/titanium. The conventional size will allow it to be cased in precious metal, in which case it may go to five-figures.
> 
> This is a world-first. No one else has anything even remotely close, just like the Eco-drive One. Citizen can go as high as they choose.


I agree with the others. By and large, Citizen doesn't have the cachet to pull off prices like that. Even the mechanical Campanolas are under $10K (Higuchi price), and the quartz models are under 4K. Yes, I remember the tourbillon; it wasn't, IIRC, intended as anything like a regular production, but a demonstration of conventional excellence. (And 100K is nothing unusual for a tourbillon...Bulgari just announced a new Octo Finissimo Tourbillon in a carbon fiber case, that's 120K. And SPECTACULAR.)

I'd also be curious to know what kind of sales numbers there are on the ED One...and of which models. It does have the advantage of being small enough to be a wonderful ladies' watch, and the cermet case gives it visual appeal.

Also, there was an interview...2, maybe 3 years ago...as part of a tour of the Citizen production facilities. The CEO said Citizen was not intending to move upscale like that, and that the prices would by and large remain sane. I can't see 8K...not for this, not even for full cermet. (Well, ok, a cermet bracelet would add a BIG chunk.) I get it's unique, I get the accuracy...but there's VERY few who'll go crazy and drop this kind of cash for it. A regular quartz is quite commonly gonna be within 30 seconds after 3 months; that's PLENTY good enough. It's us nutjobs and tech freaks that find it interesting...but there's a limit to HOW interesting. 

EDIT: just took a look at the new ED One LE. Slight case redesign; lugs are somewhat more integrated/hidden by the bezel, which is fairly dark gray. Very attractive piece, but not sure I'd drop an extra 2500 or so on it, over and above the cost of my 5026.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> I agree with the others. By and large, Citizen doesn't have the cachet to pull off prices like that. Even the mechanical Campanolas are under $10K (Higuchi price), and the quartz models are under 4K. Yes, I remember the tourbillon; it wasn't, IIRC, intended as anything like a regular production, but a demonstration of conventional excellence. (And 100K is nothing unusual for a tourbillon...Bulgari just announced a new Octo Finissimo Tourbillon in a carbon fiber case, that's 120K. And SPECTACULAR.)
> 
> I'd also be curious to know what kind of sales numbers there are on the ED One...and of which models. It does have the advantage of being small enough to be a wonderful ladies' watch, and the cermet case gives it visual appeal.
> 
> Also, there was an interview...2, maybe 3 years ago...as part of a tour of the Citizen production facilities. The CEO said Citizen was not intending to move upscale like that, and that the prices would by and large remain sane. I can't see 8K...not for this, not even for full cermet. (Well, ok, a cermet bracelet would add a BIG chunk.) I get it's unique, I get the accuracy...but there's VERY few who'll go crazy and drop this kind of cash for it. A regular quartz is quite commonly gonna be within 30 seconds after 3 months; that's PLENTY good enough. It's us nutjobs and tech freaks that find it interesting...but there's a limit to HOW interesting.


There are many nuts in Japan. The Chronomaster is still Japan only and I believe it has been selling for 20 years or more. There are those that value accuracy, but don't speak English.


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> There are many nuts in Japan. The Chronomaster is still Japan only and I believe it has been selling for 20 years or more. There are those that value accuracy, but don't speak English.


The chronomaster is sold at the citizen boutique at times square; probably can't really call it Japan only.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> The chronomaster is sold at the citizen boutique at times square; probably can't really call it Japan only.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


It's not on the catalogue. Many of their best watches are not on the International catalogues.

I don't know how it works. The boutique Chronomaster... something like a parallel import. It will take you many weeks for a battery change, because they send it back to Japan for a watch spa.


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> It's not on the catalogue. Many of their best watches are not on the International catalogues.
> 
> I don't know how it works. The boutique Chronomaster... something like a parallel import. It will take you many weeks for a battery change, because they send it back to Japan for a watch spa.


Pretty sure this isn't true. When I spoke to the owner of the times square boutique he said all watches there, including the chronomasters and even the Eco drive one, are fully serviceable in California. They do battery changes at the boutique if I remember correctly though can't say for sure.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Plus, the new Chronomasters are solar, so you're looking at 20-30 years, if not more, before needing to do anything. The older Chronomasters used the A660, which wasn't. Citizen only started using the A060 in Chronomaster-designated watches fairly recently...18 months ago?

They aren't listed in most international catalogs, tho, no. Definitely not on the US web site. That said, the Times Square boutique is presumably a flagship store, and clearly isn't tied just to the US distribution channel.

Ohhh...but there's another aspect here. I got my ED One from a dealer in Pennsylvania. There were some...issues...related to Citizen USA messing *him* up. He talked to them...so the US distributor was getting Eco Drive Ones, they just didn't show them. Presumably because they only got a handful at a time. They were telling at least some dealers, tho.

Plus, of course, there's always Seiya and Higuchi.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> Pretty sure this isn't true. When I spoke to the owner of the times square boutique he said all watches there, including the chronomasters and even the Eco drive one, are fully serviceable in California. They do battery changes at the boutique if I remember correctly though can't say for sure.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Not the Chronomaster or some models of the Eco-Drive One. The latter has some international models. I suspect they will service your Chronomaster by taking it in if you bought it from the boutique, but it'll probably be sent to Japan on your behalf.

This will be easy to verify by a current owner who didn't buy the watch from the boutique asking if Citizen USA will take the watch in for service.


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Not the Chronomaster or some models of the Eco-Drive One. The latter has some international models. I suspect they will service your Chronomaster by taking it in if you bought it from the boutique, but it'll probably be sent to Japan on your behalf.
> 
> This will be easy to verify by a current owner who didn't buy the watch from the boutique asking if Citizen USA will take the watch in for service.


Do you have a source for this? I was told pretty plainly that the chronomasters would be serviced in the US, but I can go back to the boutique for clarification.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## sleepyhead123

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> IIRC, the first non-limited Eco Drive Ones were 3500...so actually about 60% of the LE price. Or that might've been the MSRP on mine, which was one of the 2017 versions. I can't recall for sure.
> 
> One aspect is that the Eco Drive One LE used an all-cermet case, and I think cermet is a relatively low yield, high cost material. Great for the ED One because the movement is so insanely thin; cermet gives you the extra rigidity while remaining thin and relatively light. (And HARD.) It's unique to the Eco Drive One, within Citizen's offerings, I believe. I also like it visually, but then I've also got a ship's propeller bronze case, which has a similar color.
> 
> But they may go with just the usual suspects of titanium and steel, and leave anything special to the dial. If so, then any LEs may only carry a 15-20% premium.
> 
> *If it's 6k, then it'll need to appeal visually* at the same level as my Hentschel, which...gee, cost about the same.  I actually doubt it'll reach that level; the design language we commonly see from both Seiko and Citizen is a tad too bland. And of course, the ED One wasn't *just* released as a limited; there were 2 or 3 non-limited models that came out at the same time, albeit they weren't quite as interesting. I doubt I'll do the LE model, but hey, I can hope it's too stunning to pass up.


Let me say outright, I was a bit hesitant to pull the trigger on the AR5014-04E. The pictures on the internet were all over the map, from weird looking to pretty good (and horrible on Citizen's website). In person, the bronze/gold cermet and the dark dial both play with light in ways that you cannot show on video or pictures. It is a much more subtle hue to both and the way the hue changes with any movement is amazing. Once I saw it I realized there was no point whatsoever in my concern. I will dare say it is more interesting to me to look at than a SBGA011 dial (yes I understand the handiwork in a SBGA011 dial and I still like the look of the AR5014-04E more. It was well worth it, and why I am willing now to say I want the whatever the Cal 0100 comes in, because I know Citizen can make a stunner.


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

So as I'm dragging myself through the early morning routine, I see that Hodinkee has an article about Citizen. Lo and behold, the 0100 pocket watch is the feature pic.

The story is about various things as Citizen moves into its 2nd century. But there is a comment about the 0100: it will "soon be available in a wristwatch version."

So that sounds like they're on track for a Baselworld 2019 release.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> So as I'm dragging myself through the early morning routine, I see that Hodinkee has an article about Citizen. Lo and behold, the 0100 pocket watch is the feature pic... there is a comment about the 0100: it will "soon be available in a wristwatch version."
> 
> So that sounds like they're on track for a Baselworld 2019 release.


Somehow you forgot to mention the most important bits: who says that comment?!
Well the article tells you: "_the significance of the Cal.0100 concept watch, the symbol of the centennial, which will soon be available in a wristwatch version, Citizen says_"

Peculiar as the author talked to key persons at Citizen and quoted them still in the case of the Cal.0100 he simple writes "Citizen says"...
Clearly, he got no new info about the Cal.0100, anyone of us could have wrote that "Citizen says" by simply reading this HAQ forum.
So if you have presented this as a new development or some sort of indication of a Baselworld 2019 release (otherwise why you included the quote in your post) then let's make it clear that it is not... not at all! Citizen might just release it for Baselword 2019 or might not but that article does not really solve the question of the time of the release. We have learnt nothing new about the Cal.0100 or its release by reading this article. Actually, reading the Cal.0100 parts of the article some might think that the author could have got his info by reading our forum...;-)


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Somehow you forgot to mention the most important bits: who says that comment?!
> Well the article tells you: "_the significance of the Cal.0100 concept watch, the symbol of the centennial, which will soon be available in a wristwatch version, Citizen says_"
> 
> Peculiar as the author talked to key persons at Citizen and quoted them still in the case of the Cal.0100 he simple writes "Citizen says"...
> Clearly, he got no new info about the Cal.0100, anyone of us could have wrote that "Citizen says" by simply reading this HAQ forum.
> So if you have presented this as a new development or some sort of indication of a Baselworld 2019 release (otherwise why you included the quote in your post) then let's make it clear that it is not... not at all! Citizen might just release it for Baselword 2019 or might not but that article does not really solve the question of the time of the release. We have learnt nothing new about the Cal.0100 or its release by reading this article. Actually, reading the Cal.0100 parts of the article some might think that the author could have got his info by reading our forum...;-)


***** dude, have you ever heard the expression "Don't shoot the messenger"?

Whether intentional or not, you come across as a really off-putting individual in a lot of your posts. I feel like this forum doesn't get a lot of action because of people like you scaring others away.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



johneh said:


> ***** dude, have you ever heard the expression "Don't shoot the messenger"?
> 
> Whether intentional or not, you come across as a really off-putting individual in a lot of your posts. I feel like this forum doesn't get a lot of action because of people like you scaring others away.


As we know in this HAQ forum, quartz watches are not immune to extremely cold temperature... they do not perform well at extreme cold.
The human brain is even more delicate so no wonder that extreme cold can have bad effects on it... How cold is Toronto right now? Must be at the extreme!

Note: it took you 12 minutes the edit out the nasty bits?! ... Next time post your stuff at summer time for the benefit of all!


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> As we know in this HAQ forum, quartz watches are not immune to extremely cold temperature... they do not perform well at extreme cold.
> The human brain is even more delicate so no wonder that extreme cold can have bad effects on it... How cold is Toronto right now? Must be at the extreme!
> 
> Note: it took you 12 minutes the edit out the nasty bits?! ... Next time post your stuff at summer time for the benefit of all!


Nah, it took me a little while to check back and notice that it edited out a fun word I wanted to use. I don't live in this forum. Your attempt at humor was pretty poor, no wonder you resort to other tactics.

Note: My original post was 38 minutes ago, and my edit was 22 minutes after that. 38 minus 22 doesn't equal 12 champ...back to grade 1 math for you.

Have fun having no friends.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



johneh said:


> Nah, it took me 12 minutes to check back and notice that it edited out a fun word. I don't live in this forum. Your attempt at humor was pretty poor, no wonder you resort to other tactics.


I was not making a humorous attempt, I simply made a scientific observation!


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



johneh said:


> ***** dude, have you ever heard the expression "Don't shoot the messenger"?
> 
> Whether intentional or not, you come across as a really off-putting individual in a lot of your posts. I feel like this forum doesn't get a lot of action because of people like you scaring others away.


Agreed, this is specifically why I don't regularly participate in this forum, despite high-accuracy quartz watches being my main collecting interest.

A cal 0100 wristwatch being announced at Basel is still what I'm expecting. I've asked the Manhattan boutique for information, rumors, or whispers, but so far nothing (not totally surprised).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

With no new information bsince last Baeel,maybe this thread needs to go into hibernate for about two months. 
I would call the Citozen store in Manhattan, but I seriously doubt they know anything beyond their press releases now.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> Agreed, this is specifically why I don't regularly participate in this forum, despite high-accuracy quartz watches being my main collecting interest.
> 
> A cal 0100 wristwatch being announced at Basel is still what I'm expecting. I've asked the Manhattan boutique for information, rumors, or whispers, but so far nothing (not totally surprised).


Whether you like my posts or not (who cares?!) somehow you still underlined my point about the release of Cal.0100 (no info whatsoever!) so thanks for that!


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I have to say I have no clue when Citizen will bring a watch with this movement to the market. Don't have any idea how much it will cost, how many units they will make, or how broadly they will distribute or market it. But we all can speculate and discuss this.

What I do know is that looking back, anything that Citizen has brought to Basel has hit the market at some point. I know this forum for years speculated and discussed products with little or no information like the Morgernwerk with no need for a "hibernation" period.

As far as I can see the only issue with this thread is a single poster insulting multiple people.

Perhaps that should be addressed, in my opinion the topic and the speculation associated with the cal-0100 is fine.

Your call Ron


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> I was not making a humorous attempt, I simply made a scientific observation!


Not very scientific is you don't even know what 38-22 equals...I won't derail this thread anymore so if you want to carry on, have at it.

Sent from my Motorola RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Mr. Moderator has no interest in closing this thread unless there are more personal snipes.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

From the same article:

the future depends on getting market share," Cohen says. "That's something we've been focusing on. We look at where the biggest opportunities are to take market share in the traditional watch market."

That meant things like adopting aggressive pricing for new Citizen models and expanding Bulova's offer in the often overlooked ladies' watch market. (One example: Citizen's Satellite Wave GPS watch sold for $3,800 when it debuted in 2011; this year's new models, available next month, will have a list price below $800.)


And also:
This year the Citizen brand will focus primarily on its Promaster line of sport instrument watches, priced from $500 to $2,000. Cohen says it will introduce new technology into the collection, which turns 30 this year. He also hints at a surprise from Bulova. "We have a lot of things up our sleeve," he says.


Totally clutching at straws here, but I'm hoping this can be taken to mean that Citizen will attempt to compete more aggressively with Grand Seiko with the 0100, and in more markets. Potentially moving HAQ into its Promaster line, and/or giving Bulova a licence to use it's quartz technology to bring it to Western markets.

Apologies for the rampant speculation...for an in depth article it said sweet FA.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> ...What I do know is that looking back, anything that Citizen has brought to Basel has hit the market at some point...


So get ready for a pocket watch fitted with Cal.0100!;-)


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Mr. Moderator has no interest in closing this thread unless there are more personal snipes.


Come on, Ron, be proactive and offer us a solution: Let's find a way to affix a pocket watch semi-permanently on the wrist! That might be very useful within a few months...


----------



## hughesyn

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

While the article doesn't add much new, it's nice to know the 0100 is on its way.

I think I'll have to wait a couple of years for prices to get sensible.

If we really want to crystal ball gaze, when's the 9F replacement going to be released?


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Come on, Ron, be proactive and offer us a solution: Let's find a way to affix a pocket watch semi-permanently on the wrist! That might be very useful within a few months...


I would have no problem buying the PW version. If a Time-nut "tied" a primary frequency standard on his wrist, one could do that with a pocket watch. Maybe an HAQ pendant?


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> So get ready for a pocket watch fitted with Cal.0100!;-)


Actually that would be quite appropriate to celebrate their 100 year aniversary. The company was founded and established based on the Citizen Shokosha pocket watch. The cal 16 movement showed that the japanese could produce a watch with the same quality as the swiss.

Considering how small a market there will be for this watch, I don't think it matters much if it is pocket or wrist watch.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> Actually that would be quite appropriate to celebrate their 100 year anniversary...


Make that _101 year anniversary_ unless you are implying that Citizen celebrates with a prototype...


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Make that _101 year anniversary_ unless you are implying that Citizen celebrates with a prototype...


That shows that something weird is happening at Citizen regarding the Cal.0100 fitted timepiece:
- prototypes usually are not talked about publicly only internally discussed within the company
- _if_ a wristwatch or pocket watch is ever to be released to the public with the Cal.0100 then it missed a golden opportunity for perfect timing as that _would be timepiece_ certainly cannot feature the "_100 anniversary_" markings on the case or dial
- the technologies required for the Cal.0100 have been available for a while so unavailability cannot be the reason for the less than perfect timing


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> Do you have a source for this? I was told pretty plainly that the chronomasters would be serviced in the US, but I can go back to the boutique for clarification.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I confirmed this with the local Citizen agent for JDM watches (i.e. any model only seen on the .jp site and not the .com ones). They will take the watch and send it back to Japan, for a fee. Or refuse service if the watch isn't worth the cost.

Seiya-san also confirmed sending it back to Japan is the only way to service the Chronomaster.

I don't think Citizen USA will service the Chronomaster. Volume is too low to keep the expertise inhouse.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> That shows that something weird is happening at Citizen regarding the Cal.0100 fitted timepiece:
> - prototypes usually are not talked about publicly only internally discussed within the company
> - _if_ a wristwatch or pocket watch is ever to be released to the public with the Cal.0100 then it missed a golden opportunity for perfect timing as that _would be timepiece_ certainly cannot feature the "_100 anniversary_" markings on the case or dial
> - the technologies required for the Cal.0100 have been available for a while so unavailability cannot be the reason for the less than perfect timing


I'm certain everyone at Citizen is ecstatic to celebrate their 100th anniversery with what they refer to as a "Concept Model." When management approves a concept model it allow artists, designers, engineers, R&D and manufacturing to show off what they can do with a pretty big budget. Everyone delivered and the watch was on display at Basel, upper management and marketing had one of the most talked about pieces at the show. All good, and they are never selling that piece, it will always mark their 100th anniversery.

By the way it is a pretty common approach to display concept models to the public in almost every industry, (look up concept cars at auto shows, concept electronics introduced at CES, concept appliances at the Home shows to name a few) to introduce technology or celebrate a landmark.

I guess it would be disengenuous to put 100th anniversery on future watches but who would complain if they did?


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> ...By the way it is a pretty common approach to display concept models to the public in almost every industry, (look up concept cars at auto shows, concept electronics introduced at CES, concept appliances at the Home shows to name a few) to introduce technology or celebrate a landmark...


Can we stay in the watch industry and be on-topic?! Name one "_concept model_" (if you prefer that terminology), please, from the watch industry apart from Cal.0100 that had a public display! Thanks in advance!


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Can we stay in the watch industry and be on-topic?! Name one "_concept model_" (if you prefer that terminology), please, from the watch industry apart from Cal.0100 that had a public display! Thanks in advance!


As a matter of fact in the HAQ-world we are familiar with 2 _prototypes_ (that was the terminology from the respective manufacturers):
- Omega Cal.1522 (4MHz) - never went to mass production (only two were made as far as we know)
- Junghans 4MHz model - only two were made (cased in special "prototype case") as far as we know and then later limited number of 2000 were made in "retail cases"
They were not on public display but almost got completely ignored/forgotten by the respective manufacturers!


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> That shows that something weird is happening at Citizen regarding the Cal.0100 fitted timepiece:
> - prototypes usually are not talked about publicly only internally discussed within the company
> - _if_ a wristwatch or pocket watch is ever to be released to the public with the Cal.0100 then it missed a golden opportunity for perfect timing as that _would be timepiece_ certainly cannot feature the "_100 anniversary_" markings on the case or dial
> - the technologies required for the Cal.0100 have been available for a while so unavailability cannot be the reason for the less than perfect timing


I suspect it has to do with the battery and charging mechanism. This is a high-draw circuitry and a special rechargeable battery and charging circuit has to be developed. To my knowledge, the batteries are not inhouse. They are developed by vendors.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> I suspect it has to do with the battery and charging mechanism. This is a high-draw circuitry and a special rechargeable battery and charging circuit has to be developed. To my knowledge, the batteries are not inhouse. They are developed by vendors.


Fine, that is your opinion. The batteries are made by Panasonic, we know that. Citizen (Eco-Drive) is the leader in watch solar power technology, we know that as well. In my opinion, the battery and the charging mechanism are not such huge barriers (if they are barriers at all!) that could not have been overcome by Citizen and Panasonic in time for the 100 year anniversary if they really wanted to.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> As a matter of fact in the HAQ-world we are familiar with 2 _prototypes_ (that was the terminology from the respective manufacturers):
> - Omega Cal.1522 (4MHz) - never went to mass production (only two were made as far as we know)
> - Junghans 4MHz model - only two were made (cased in special "prototype case") as far as we know and then later limited number of 2000 were made in "retail cases"
> They were not on public display but almost got completely ignored/forgotten by the respective manufacturers!


I almost forgot the HAQ Rolex movement with perpetual calendar that was rumored to be at prototype-stage but never went into mass production.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Can we stay in the watch industry and be on-topic?! Name one "_concept model_" (if you prefer that terminology), please, from the watch industry apart from Cal.0100 that had a public display! Thanks in advance!


Here's an example of a concept/prototype watch shown at Basel:

https://www.ubergizmo.com/2015/03/tissot-smartwatch-prototype-unveiled-at-baselworld-2015/

and another one (quite bizarre design in my eyes):

https://www.watchcollectinglifestyl...e-woke-up-with-and-brought-to-chicago-with-us


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Fine, that is your opinion. The batteries are made by Panasonic, we know that. Citizen (Eco-Drive) is the leader in watch solar power technology, we know that as well. In my opinion, the battery and the charging mechanism are not such huge barriers (if they are barriers at all!) that could not have been overcome by Citizen and Panasonic in time for the 100 year anniversary if they really wanted to.


Not all of them. The one in the Eco-drive One is developed jointly with Hitachi Maxell to shrink it to 0.9mm.

Try doing an Eco-drive with a 1 year power-reserve on the Caliber 100. That's harder because the quartz crystal cannot be shut down and is a big power draw, unlike the other Eco-drive models, including the GPS watches.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> ...Try doing an Eco-drive with a 1 year power-reserve on the Caliber 100. That's harder because the quartz crystal cannot be shut down and is a big power draw, unlike the other Eco-drive models, including the GPS watches.


In 1979 the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.7370) with 4.19MHz oscillator used 1.55V battery that lasted for 2 years. That was 40 years ago! Modern days' electronic circuits use much less power than the one in the Cal.7370... the power consumptions of those years and modern times are light years apart!


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> Here's an example of a concept/prototype watch shown at Basel:
> 
> https://www.ubergizmo.com/2015/03/tissot-smartwatch-prototype-unveiled-at-baselworld-2015/
> 
> and another one (quite bizarre design in my eyes):
> 
> https://www.watchcollectinglifestyl...e-woke-up-with-and-brought-to-chicago-with-us


Fine, thanks! It shows pretty well that I only have interest in HAQ and not in other offerings of the watch industry... and that won't change!


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Not all of them. The one in the Eco-drive One is developed jointly with Hitachi Maxell to shrink it to 0.9mm...


I see, thanks for the info, so here we are again: another evidence that I only have interest in HAQ and not in other offerings of the watch industry (the Eco-Drive One is a nice slimline model but it is out of my radar)... and that won't change!


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> In 1979 the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.7370) with 4.19MHz oscillator used 1.55V battery that lasted for 2 years. That was 40 years ago! Modern days' electronic circuits use much less power than the one in the Cal.7370... the power consumptions of those years and modern times are light years apart!


And how do you handle the charging today? These are rechargeables, using solar panels that's smaller than the average stamp.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> And how do you handle the charging today? These are rechargeables, using solar panels that's smaller than the average stamp.


The Citizen Cal.E510 is a thermocompensated Eco-Drive movement with perpetual calendar. It was introduced nearly 20 years ago. According to the factory specifications its battery can last for 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged while the watch remains within 10 seconds/year accuracy-wise! Now that was back then all those years ago... I'm pretty sure that the applied technologies got much refined by now. Don't you think so?


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> The Citizen Cal.E510 is a thermocompensated Eco-Drive movement with perpetual calendar. It was introduced nearly 20 years ago. According to the factory specifications its battery can last for 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged while the watch remains within 10 seconds/year accuracy-wise! Now that was back then all those years ago... I'm pretty sure that the applied technologies got much refined by now. Don't you think so?


Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape. You cannot slow down the crystal, even if you stop the hands to conserve power. Thermocompensation doesn't require much power. It's just simple math.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape. You cannot slow down the crystal, even if you stop the hands to conserve power. Thermocompensation doesn't require much power. It's just simple math.


Thanks to Citizen, we know exactly the difference of power usage when thermocompensation is involved:
- Cal.E510 (with thermocompensation) can last 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged
- Cal.E760 (same as Cal.E510 but without thermocompensation) can last 5 years in complete darkness when fully charged

Now about the "_Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape_":
Well, math can be simple but I can prove you that crystal frequency and power consumption have no _linear_ relation by using your example (against your argument!): Let's take the year 1979 Cal.7370 movement (with 4.19MHz oscillator) that could last for 2 years on a 1.55V battery. Now take any 3-handed analog quartz watch with 32kHz oscillator from the same age (late 70s early 80s) and show me that it lasted 130x times longer (for over 250 years!!!) on a 1.55V battery!
Even better: get me any 32kHz analog 3-handed watch that can last at least 10 years on a 1.55V battery from any age including present days offerings!
You got that one wrong: a 8.4MHz oscillator won't use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator... (very) far from that!

*1st Addition*: actually, back in the late 70s early 80s most 32kHz analog quartz watches lasted no more than 2 years on 1.55V batteries and that is a very similar duration to the 4.19MHz movement of the same area/age... Facts are facts! (and we like them, don't we?!;-))

*2nd Addition*: I think, considering the above, we can conclude that missing the 100 anniversary with a wristwatch featuring the Cal.0100 movement has nothing to do "_with the battery and charging mechanism_"...


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Thanks to Citizen, we know exactly the difference of power usage when thermocompensation is involved:
> - Cal.E510 (with thermocompensation) can last 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> - Cal.E760 (same as Cal.E510 but without thermocompensation) can last 5 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> 
> Now about the "_Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape_":
> Well, math can be simple but I can prove you that crystal frequency and power consumption have no _linear_ relation by using your example (against your argument!): Let's take the year 1979 Cal.7370 movement (with 4.19MHz oscillator) that could last for 2 years on a 1.55V battery. Now take any 3-handed analog quartz watch with 32kHz oscillator from the same age (late 70s early 80s) and show me that it lasted 130x times longer (for over 250 years!!!) on a 1.55V battery!
> Even better: get me any 32kHz analog 3-handed watch that can last at least 10 years on a 1.55V battery from any age including present days offerings!
> You got that one wrong: a 8.4MHz oscillator won't use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator... (very) far from that!
> 
> *1st Addition*: actually, back in the late 70s early 80s most 32kHz analog quartz watches lasted no more than 2 years on 1.55V batteries and that is a very similar duration to the 4.19MHz movement of the same area/age... Facts are facts! (and we like them, don't we?!;-))
> 
> *2nd Addition*: I think, considering the above, we can conclude that missing the 100 anniversary with a wristwatch featuring the Cal.0100 movement has nothing to do "_with the battery and charging mechanism_"...


Interesting thought process. But it's not quite right, there are variables you aren't considering some factors nor are even following the rules of physics in what determines what makes a digital chip consume power.

I'm a chip designer (analog/mixed signal power management ICs) so power consumption is something I deal with every day in both what my designs use from their supply and how efficient my chips do power conversion. For a given digital technology, current consumption is proportional to clocking frequency. You're charging/discharging capacitors (ie gates of MOS transistors) and that is a biggest determinant in how much power you use. Up the frequency, the power goes up proportionally. If voltage is constant, power goes up linearly with frequency (P=V x I). The big way modern processors kept power down was clocking frequencies quit going up years ago, smart power management shuts down parts of the IC and voltage rails went down. If things were clocked and powered at rails like 10 years ago you'd need a heat sink that's the size of your desktop to keep the thing cool or an outboard chiller (neither of which is desirable).

Now indeed as circuits shrunk power would go down but that's largely due to voltage rails inside the IC went down, WAY down (from 5V to under 1.8V today). In those earlier circuits they'd use charge pumps to up the voltage to higher than 1.55V since transistors had too high of a threshold voltage, no one was building low voltage ICs in those days. Even today the same idea is used, namely in LCD digital displays. Plus, motors use power and there's only so much energy to be squeezed out of them, a modern watch in that regard isn't much different than an old one. If you put in a smooth sweep (ala the Bulova 262kHz movements), power consumption goes way up, hence why those watches use 3V CR20xx button cells; much, much higher energy in those compared to a silver oxide cell.

also, note that when the hands are moving these watches I think last 6 months without charging, stop the hands and the life expectancy goes up to 2 yrs (please correct me if I'm wrong). That seems consistent with most quartz watches, if you stop the hands in many Ronda quartz movements it cuts power consumption by 70%; that implies about 25% is for driving the circuitry, 75% for the hands.

Now you're right, the newer circuits won't use 260x the power of an older one due to lower voltages and other circuit design techniques, which reduces power demand. But, when you up the clocking frequency from 32kHz to 8.4MHz, more power will be used, period, no way around that. The power to drive the hands likely didn't go up, likely went down over time due to better motors but note the 0100 movement doesn't use the smooth sweep of the Bulovas (power consumption was likely a killer with solar tech).

From what little information I can glean the power in the Calibre 0100 is around 4x (or higher) that what is in most modern of the Citizen movements these days. My E650 caliber watch (AT4008-51E model) can keep time in complete darkness for 2 yrs. in stand-by mode Citizen claims. The C0100 movement is 6 months. I'm assuming the same area of solar cell, same solar cell efficiency, same size rechargeable cell as the E650. If any of those 3 items got better (namely the rechargeable cell has more capacity), then the 4x power consumption in the C0100 vs. the E650 is even higher.]

By the way, what size silver oxide cell did those old 4MHz watches use? And I assume they had a sweep second hand too?


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Thanks to Citizen, we know exactly the difference of power usage when thermocompensation is involved:
> - Cal.E510 (with thermocompensation) can last 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> - Cal.E760 (same as Cal.E510 but without thermocompensation) can last 5 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> 
> Now about the "_Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape_":
> Well, math can be simple but I can prove you that crystal frequency and power consumption have no _linear_ relation by using your example (against your argument!): Let's take the year 1979 Cal.7370 movement (with 4.19MHz oscillator) that could last for 2 years on a 1.55V battery. Now take any 3-handed analog quartz watch with 32kHz oscillator from the same age (late 70s early 80s) and show me that it lasted 130x times longer (for over 250 years!!!) on a 1.55V battery!
> Even better: get me any 32kHz analog 3-handed watch that can last at least 10 years on a 1.55V battery from any age including present days offerings!
> You got that one wrong: a 8.4MHz oscillator won't use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator... (very) far from that!
> 
> *1st Addition*: actually, back in the late 70s early 80s most 32kHz analog quartz watches lasted no more than 2 years on 1.55V batteries and that is a very similar duration to the 4.19MHz movement of the same area/age... Facts are facts! (and we like them, don't we?!;-))
> 
> *2nd Addition*: I think, considering the above, we can conclude that missing the 100 anniversary with a wristwatch featuring the Cal.0100 movement has nothing to do "_with the battery and charging mechanism_"...


Maybe I'm missing something here, but RPF didn't actually say that frequency and power consumption were linear. Nor did he say a 8.4MHz oscillator would use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator.

Solid attempt at a strawman though!


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> Interesting thought process. But it's not quite right, there are variables you aren't considering some factors nor are even following the rules of physics in what determines what makes a digital chip consume power.
> 
> I'm a chip designer (analog/mixed signal power management ICs) so power consumption is something I deal with every day in both what my designs use from their supply and how efficient my chips do power conversion. For a given digital technology, current consumption is proportional to clocking frequency. You're charging/discharging capacitors (ie gates of MOS transistors) and that is a biggest determinant in how much power you use. Up the frequency, the power goes up proportionally. If voltage is constant, power goes up linearly with frequency (P=V x I). The big way modern processors kept power down was clocking frequencies quit going up years ago, smart power management shuts down parts of the IC and voltage rails went down. If things were clocked and powered at rails like 10 years ago you'd need a heat sink that's the size of your desktop to keep the thing cool or an outboard chiller (neither of which is desirable).
> 
> Now indeed as circuits shrunk power would go down but that's largely due to voltage rails inside the IC went down, WAY down (from 5V to under 1.8V today). In those earlier circuits they'd use charge pumps to up the voltage to higher than 1.55V since transistors had too high of a threshold voltage, no one was building low voltage ICs in those days. Even today the same idea is used, namely in LCD digital displays. Plus, motors use power and there's only so much energy to be squeezed out of them, a modern watch in that regard isn't much different than an old one. If you put in a smooth sweep (ala the Bulova 262kHz movements), power consumption goes way up, hence why those watches use 3V CR20xx button cells; much, much higher energy in those compared to a silver oxide cell.
> 
> also, note that when the hands are moving these watches I think last 6 months without charging, stop the hands and the life expectancy goes up to 2 yrs (please correct me if I'm wrong). That seems consistent with most quartz watches, if you stop the hands in many Ronda quartz movements it cuts power consumption by 70%; that implies about 25% is for driving the circuitry, 75% for the hands.
> 
> Now you're right, the newer circuits won't use 260x the power of an older one due to lower voltages and other circuit design techniques, which reduces power demand. But, when you up the clocking frequency from 32kHz to 8.4MHz, more power will be used, period, no way around that. The power to drive the hands likely didn't go up, likely went down over time due to better motors but note the 0100 movement doesn't use the smooth sweep of the Bulovas (power consumption was likely a killer with solar tech).
> 
> From what little information I can glean the power in the Calibre 0100 is around 4x (or higher) that what is in most modern of the Citizen movements these days. My E650 caliber watch (AT4008-51E model) can keep time in complete darkness for 2 yrs. in stand-by mode Citizen claims.  The C0100 movement is 6 months. I'm assuming the same area of solar cell, same solar cell efficiency, same size rechargeable cell as the E650. If any of those 3 items got better (namely the rechargeable cell has more capacity), then the 4x power consumption in the C0100 vs. the E650 is even higher.]
> 
> By the way, what size silver oxide cell did those old 4MHz watches use? And I assume they had a sweep second hand too?


Please, read again my post the one you're quoted!
There is no assumption from my part in that post: I stated the facts nothing else! There is no opinion in that post (except that I declared that these facts make it obvious that power usage should not be a barrier in case of the release the Cal.0100 cased in a wristwatch) only facts.
You should have done your homework before assuming anything or asking question that easily can be found on the net about the Cal.7370:
- it does not have a sweeping second hand (why would it?!) - the second hand moves once/second
- it has a silver-oxide 1,55V battery with 175mAH capacity (size: 11.6mm, thickness: 4.2mm)

*Finally and take it as an advice with good intention: one needs to read/learn a lot before being able to ask the right question in the subject and read/learn even more to be able to answer question in the subject! You or anyone else for that matter can't expect me to start it every time from Adam and Eve so please be prepared (read the forum it is full of very useful info) otherwise it is pointless! I can't do your homework (take this post an exception!)!*


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> By the way, what size silver oxide cell did those old 4MHz watches use? And I assume they had a sweep second hand too?


If by "sweep", you mean "ticking more than once per second", then no, did they not. The famous citizen 4mhz crystron, and to my knowledge all mhz-range quartz watches, had a second hand that ticked once per second.

If by "sweep second hand", you mean "second hand mounted on the center of the dial, rather than a sub-seconds dial", then yes, though I suspect from context you were referring to a smooth motion.

The only truly smooth sweep quartz watches I'm aware of are the Seiko spring drive, piaget 700p, Seiko 5s21 and 5s42. Near-smooth (i.e., hundreds of ticks per second) include the beta 21, accuquartz 224, and longines ultraquartz. Then of course there's the Bulova UHF at 16 per second and various electromechanical quartz watches (like the luch 3055, for example) in the 8 per second or so range. The only haq among the bunch would be the 5s42 (and depending on your point of view, the Bulova UHF).

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



johneh said:


> Maybe I'm missing something here, but RPF didn't actually say that frequency and power consumption were linear. Nor did he say a 8.4MHz oscillator would use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator.
> 
> Solid attempt at a strawman though!


OK, then he just put numbers and letters next to each others randomly... for killing time(?!) like yourself.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Can we stay in the watch industry and be on-topic?! Name one "_concept model_" (if you prefer that terminology), please, from the watch industry apart from Cal.0100 that had a public display! Thanks in advance!


Sure the Longines VHP, the VHP chronograph, and most recently the VHP GMT. The chronograph after a year or so looks like it has finally arrived, still waiting for the GMT with the more advanced setting features.

If I recall Arnie was showing a Morgenwerk example at shows years before it was ever available. Perhaps just a mockup and specifications same idea.

If we want to talk Citizen, the Bulova Moonwatch and Curve (both argueably HAQ) and although not HAQ, but considering its the same company it should be appropriate, they showed the Eco Drive One. All were displayed at Basel long before they were released for sale. All in the last couple of years.


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> OK, then he just put numbers and letters next to each others randomly... for killing time(?!)


Nope, that's not what he did at all. Here's the quote for you again. Try to read it thoroughly and understand it, much like you advise others to do: _"Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape. You cannot slow down the crystal, even if you stop the hands to conserve power. Thermocompensation doesn't require much power. It's just simple math."_

I'll make it simple for you by paraphrasing so you can wrap your head around it:
Here's what he said: *There's a 260x difference in the frequency of vibrations.*
Here's what he didn't say. *Frequency and power consumption are linear. 8.4Mhz will use 260x more power than 32Khz. *

Feel free to try and prove that wrong without going off on some tangent.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



johneh said:


> Nope, that's not what he did at all. Here's the quote for you again. Try to read it thoroughly and understand it, much like you advise others to do: _"Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape. You cannot slow down the crystal, even if you stop the hands to conserve power. Thermocompensation doesn't require much power. It's just simple math."_
> 
> I'll make it simple for you by paraphrasing so you can wrap your head around it:
> Here's what he said: *There's a 260x difference in the frequency of vibrations.*
> Here's what he didn't say. *Frequency and power consumption are linear. 8.4Mhz will use 260x more power than 32Khz. *
> 
> Feel free to try and prove that wrong without going off on some tangent.


Why don't we get back to this in a couple of months time when the winter is over in Toronto? Just for the sake of the sanity of the forum!


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Please, read again my post the one you're quoted!
> There is no assumption from my part in that post: I stated the facts nothing else! There is no opinion in that post (except that I declared that these facts make it obvious that power usage should not be a barrier in case of the release the Cal.0100 cased in a wristwatch) only facts.
> You should have done your homework before assuming anything or asking question that easily can be found on the net about the Cal.7370:
> - it does not have a sweeping second hand (why would it?!) - the second hand moves once/second
> - it has a silver-oxide 1,55V battery with 175mAH capacity (size: 11.6mm, thickness: 4.2mm)
> 
> *Finally and take it as an advice with good intention: one needs to read/learn a lot before being able to ask the right question in the subject and read/learn even more to be able to answer question in the subject! You or anyone else for that matter can't expect me to start it every time from Adam and Eve so please be prepared (read the forum it is full of very useful info) otherwise it is pointless! I can't do your homework (take this post an exception!)!*


"Well, math can be simple but I can prove you that crystal frequency and power consumption have no linear relation by using your example (against your argument!): "

Your quote, not mine. That's a wrong statement. I attempted to explain things as someone who designs circuits for a living but apparently the thing you're capable of is insults. Too bad they're not funny insults.

I could add in additional commentary about how you'd fit in with a certain actor in the US political establishment but I'll refrain for now.


----------



## johneh

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Why don't we get back to this in a couple of months time when the winter is over in Toronto? Just for the sake of the sanity of the forum!


Here's a better idea...Why don't you point out exactly where he said the relationship between power consumption and frequency was linear, or that an 8.4Mhz oscillator uses 260x more power than a 32Khz one. Stop running around in circles and man up. I'll wait.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Not to get into the weeds too much but there a whole lot of factors other than just the technology that will determine if and how quickly a product comes to market. Not the least of which is scale up costs, versus the price vs unit volume demand curves. Based on marketing studies of consumers, coupled to corporate philosophy a target price will have to be balanced versus projected manufacturing costs.

Simply put they have to figure out how many units they have to produce to make a profit versus what the consumer is willing to pay, given the projected manufacturing costs. This is all weighed against warranty costs for failure rate and bad publicity for out of spec product.

Just saying that there is more to bringing a product to market than just technology, Marketing is a science also that incorporates a bunch of high level mathematics and social sciences. It's not just advertising and brand ambassadors.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> Not to get into the weeds too much but there a whole lot of factors other than just the technology that will determine if and how quickly a product comes to market. Not the least of which is scale up costs, versus the price vs unit volume demand curves. Based on marketing studies of consumers, coupled to corporate philosophy a target price will have to be balanced versus projected manufacturing costs.
> 
> Simply put they have to figure out how many units they have to produce to make a profit versus what the consumer is willing to pay, given the projected manufacturing costs. This is all weighed against warranty costs for failure rate and bad publicity for out of spec product.
> 
> Just saying that there is more to bringing a product to market than just technology, Marketing is a science also that incorporates a bunch of high level mathematics and social sciences. It's not just advertising and brand ambassadors.


I agree!


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

We need to cool off. Until it is released, we are speculating.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Thanks to Citizen, we know exactly the difference of power usage when thermocompensation is involved:
> - Cal.E510 (with thermocompensation) can last 4 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> - Cal.E760 (same as Cal.E510 but without thermocompensation) can last 5 years in complete darkness when fully charged
> 
> Now about the "_Different freq. 8.4 Mhz vs. 32Khz. That's a 260x difference with a different crystal shape_":
> Well, math can be simple but I can prove you that crystal frequency and power consumption have no _linear_ relation by using your example (against your argument!): Let's take the year 1979 Cal.7370 movement (with 4.19MHz oscillator) that could last for 2 years on a 1.55V battery. Now take any 3-handed analog quartz watch with 32kHz oscillator from the same age (late 70s early 80s) and show me that it lasted 130x times longer (for over 250 years!!!) on a 1.55V battery!
> Even better: get me any 32kHz analog 3-handed watch that can last at least 10 years on a 1.55V battery from any age including present days offerings!
> You got that one wrong: a 8.4MHz oscillator won't use 260 times more power than a 32kHz oscillator... (very) far from that!
> 
> *1st Addition*: actually, back in the late 70s early 80s most 32kHz analog quartz watches lasted no more than 2 years on 1.55V batteries and that is a very similar duration to the 4.19MHz movement of the same area/age... Facts are facts! (and we like them, don't we?!;-))
> 
> *2nd Addition*: I think, considering the above, we can conclude that missing the 100 anniversary with a wristwatch featuring the Cal.0100 movement has nothing to do "_with the battery and charging mechanism_"...


I never said it was linear, merely it's more. The Seiko 8f also uses a different crystal shape with 192khz frequency. It requires a lithium cell CR2412, a high capacity battery for a battery life of 5-8 years. THe 8f uses the largest battery in a modern quartz watch, much larger than any thermcomp. ETA. I don't know about the 70s watches because I don't own any. However, I will be very surprised if your claim is true because the high-freq route was rarely pursued for accuracy despite working so well.

The relative size of the movement is a huge clue. The cal. 100 is easily the largest quartz movement I've ever seen. What's the purpose for all that space?


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> I never said it was linear, merely it's more. The Seiko 8f also uses a different crystal shape with 192khz frequency. It requires a lithium cell CR2412, a high capacity battery for a battery life of 5-8 years. THe 8f uses the largest battery in a modern quartz watch, much larger than any thermcomp. ETA. I don't know about the 70s watches because I don't own any. However, I will be very surprised if your claim is true because the high-freq route was rarely pursued for accuracy despite working so well...


But it is not even significantly more as you can clearly see in my post as I included plenty details. I'm very familiar with the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA and its battery power usage is in-line with the factory specifications: 2 years. What more can I say?! According to your opinion it should use "_more_" power but it does not use significantly more (if more at all) than a 32kHz movement with ticking (1 tick/second) second hand. You indicated at the end of your post that "_It's just simple math_"... yes, it is but you don't like the result! Too bad but that is life! The Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA uses an ordinary 1.55V silver-oxid battery that last for 2 years. Bingo! By the simple math it indicates that MHz-range oscillators do not have to be power hungry and it also indicates that Citizen had known since the late 70s how to make them easy on power. Any reason to doubt that 40 years later Citizen can do even better?! You should be happy that not power consumption nor any technological issue is the reason for the "_delay_". But if you read on, you might see that there could be dark clouds on the sky so the party suddenly could be over... because the real cause of the _delay_ or should I use the phrase _abandoning the project_ could be that
- If Citizen charges considerably more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current *The Citizen *models selling for then the new wristwatch with Cal.0100 won't do well with sales.
- If Citizen charges just a bit more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current *The Citizen *models selling for then the current *The Citizen *models won't do well with sales.
I think the above _marketing_ issues have more to do with the _delay_ than anything else! Citizen has to pick which finger to bite...


----------



## ronalddheld

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Does anyone know what percentage of the dial area is covered by solar cells?


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of the dial area is covered by solar cells?


I imagine it could be pretty different between the existing pocket watch prototype and the eventual wristwatch. I tried watching the official citizen video about the prototype but the only piece of information I could find from that video was a statement that an 8mhz oscillator used much more power than a 32khz oscillator - nothing about how much solar cell area there was.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> ...I tried watching the official citizen video about the prototype but the only piece of information I could find from that video was a statement that an 8mhz oscillator used much more power than a 32khz oscillator...


If these days Citizen were making a video about the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.7370) they would claim as its virtue that it hardly uses more power than a 32kHz watch... Now that is what we call marketing slogans! Don't ever believe them without knowing the applied technologies!


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> If these days Citizen were making a video about the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.7370) they would claim as its virtue that it hardly uses more power than a 32kHz watch... Now that is what we call marketing slogans! Don't ever believe them without knowing the applied technologies!


At this point I have a chip designer up thread and citizen themself making the case that 8mhz oscillators use meaningfully more power than 32khz oscillators. On the other hand there is... you.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## nycddancer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ronalddheld said:


> Does anyone know what percentage of the dial area is covered by solar cells?


It might be possible to extrapolate from this marketing shot of the a060. If we assume the image isn't just a marketing lie, and further assume that purple stuff is solar cell (both of which are assumptions but I think reasonable), that would suggest that at least on the a060 essentially the entire dial is solar cell - seems reasonable to hypothesise the same would be true in the 0100.









Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> But it is not even significantly more as you can clearly see in my post as I included plenty details. I'm very familiar with the Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA and its battery power usage is in-line with the factory specifications: 2 years. What more can I say?! According to your opinion it should use "_more_" power but it does not use significantly more (if more at all) than a 32kHz movement with ticking (1 tick/second) second hand. You indicated at the end of your post that "_It's just simple math_"... yes, it is but you don't like the result! Too bad but that is life! The Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA uses an ordinary 1.55V silver-oxid battery that last for 2 years. Bingo! By the simple math it indicates that MHz-range oscillators do not have to be power hungry and it also indicates that Citizen had known since the late 70s how to make them easy on power. Any reason to doubt that 40 years later Citizen can do even better?! You should be happy that not power consumption nor any technological issue is the reason for the "_delay_". But if you read on, you might see that there could be dark clouds on the sky so the party suddenly could be over... because the real cause of the _delay_ or should I use the phrase _abandoning the project_ could be that
> - If Citizen charges considerably more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current *The Citizen *models selling for then the new wristwatch with Cal.0100 won't do well with sales.
> - If Citizen charges just a bit more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current *The Citizen *models selling for then the current *The Citizen *models won't do well with sales.
> I think the above _marketing_ issues have more to do with the _delay_ than anything else! Citizen has to pick which finger to bite...


Right, that's opinion you're entitled to. We will see when it goes on sale. So, why is this movement so much bigger than anything from the Japanese that's HAQ?


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

If I remember the diagram on the Eco Drive One's construction, yeah, the solar cells themselves are their own layer, under the dial and above the movement proper. That was one of the big issues in making the Eco Drive One fit in the 1 mm height.

And as long as it is a separate layer, then it seems fundamentally natural that it's the same size as the movement. That said, it's also possible that the cells are cut to a fixed size, or to a few fixed sizes (small ladies' models obviously can't use the same array as the 060.) That simplifies the process and inventory aspects.

Were I to bet, I'd go with it'll be the same size. The relatively short reserve says a higher than average power consumption, which would clearly suggest that you want to maximize the power from the cells. Ergo, maximize their size. This is gonna be their flagship Eco Drive movement moving forward, we have to believe, so even if there's some custom aspects to the production, that's probably not an issue.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



gangrel said:


> If I remember the diagram on the Eco Drive One's construction, yeah, the solar cells themselves are their own layer, under the dial and above the movement proper. That was one of the big issues in making the Eco Drive One fit in the 1 mm height.
> 
> And as long as it is a separate layer, then it seems fundamentally natural that it's the same size as the movement. That said, it's also possible that the cells are cut to a fixed size, or to a few fixed sizes (small ladies' models obviously can't use the same array as the 060.) That simplifies the process and inventory aspects.
> 
> Were I to bet, I'd go with it'll be the same size. The relatively short reserve says a higher than average power consumption, which would clearly suggest that you want to maximize the power from the cells. Ergo, maximize their size. This is gonna be their flagship Eco Drive movement moving forward, we have to believe, so even if there's some custom aspects to the production, that's probably not an issue.


I think the Eco-Drive One has a concentric solar cell ringing the dial, not the full dial.









Citizen has released watches with solar cells at the side of the case, transparently bonded to the underside of the crystal, and the side of multi-layered dials. Not necessarily always under the dial.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

I didn't think the movement was that much bigger. But than again maybe it is slightly bigger to accomadate the uniquely cut AT crystal, or a bigger solar cell, or larger gearing. Not sure if they are using any new or exotic solar technology or a special battery with different charge and discharge characteristics either to account for increased demands of the 8.4 mhz and the IC, they say is doing more things like functions associated to shock.

What is clear is that it is a completely new movement with pretty demanding specifications employing quite a few exclusive components. Is it at all surprising that it may take some time to bring this to market?

Just my opinion, I think they will bring it to market just so they can send a message to Seiko, and say that your new 5 spy watch may be an equal to the The Citizen, but not our Cal 0100.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> I didn't think the movement was that much bigger. But than again maybe it is slightly bigger to accomadate the uniquely cut AT crystal, or a bigger solar cell, or larger gearing. Not sure if they are using any new or exotic solar technology or a special battery with different charge and discharge characteristics either to account for increased demands of the 8.4 mhz and the IC, they say is doing more things like functions associated to shock.
> 
> What is clear is that it is a completely new movement with pretty demanding specifications employing quite a few exclusive components. Is it at all surprising that it may take some time to bring this to market?
> 
> Just my opinion, I think they will bring it to market just so they can send a message to Seiko, and say that your new 5 spy watch may be an equal to the The Citizen, but not our Cal 0100.


Most three-hand quartz movements are less than 25mm. This cal. 100 is 33.3mm and almost 3mm thick. That's huge. Even the 9F GS are only 27/29mm by 26mm (it's sort of tonneau shaped), and that's to accommodate a bigger date disk.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Most three-hand quartz movements are less than 25mm. This cal. 100 is 33.3mm and almost 3mm thick. That's huge. Even the 9F GS are only 27/29mm by 26mm (it's sort of tonneau shaped), and that's to accommodate a bigger date disk.


I'm not sure about most, but a pretty common HAQ 3 hand movement is the Eta F07.411, it's in the Certina dive watches and pops up in a lot of other brands, it's 30mm. Don't think Citizen will have much of a problem putting the 0100 in a 40mm case.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> ...So, why is this movement so much bigger than anything from the Japanese that's HAQ?


Why not, especially if it is cased as a pocket watch?!


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



nycddancer said:


> At this point I have a chip designer up thread and citizen themself making the case that 8mhz oscillators use meaningfully more power than 32khz oscillators. On the other hand there is... you...


You should find a couple of Nobel-prize winners and add them next to the chip designer and Citizen just to make it even field! Otherwise it's no contest...


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> I'm not sure about most, but a pretty common HAQ 3 hand movement is the Eta F07.411, it's in the Certina dive watches and pops up in a lot of other brands, it's 30mm. Don't think Citizen will have much of a problem putting the 0100 in a 40mm case.


40 should be no problem. Tourby slipped a 6497, which is a 36mm movement, into a 40mm case...took work apparently, but they did. From what I've seen with mechanicals, you're generally looking at needing 6 mm or more, which if ya think about it, isn't a whole lot. Where they'll have a problem is if they want to go down to 37 or so.

BTW, with ETA, in the F0x numbering, x represents the size group. There's everything, far as I know, from F03 to F07. F06 is 25.6 mm, same as 2824 and 2892 (no coincidence there, I suspect).


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> I'm not sure about most, but a pretty common HAQ 3 hand movement is the Eta F07.411, it's in the Certina dive watches and pops up in a lot of other brands, it's 30mm. Don't think Citizen will have much of a problem putting the 0100 in a 40mm case.


The F07 is stepped. The outer part is significantly thinner. The design is to accommodate a bigger date wheel. The actual timekeeping is only 20-22mm (visual estimate). The Cal. 100 has a 33mm case that's a full cylindrical disk. That's HUGE for a 3-hander.


----------



## wbird

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> The F07 is stepped. The outer part is significantly thinner. The design is to accommodate a bigger date wheel. The actual timekeeping is only 20-22mm (visual estimate). The Cal. 100 has a 33mm case that's a full cylindrical disk. That's HUGE for a 3-hander.


Guess it's all relative, huge for a typical 5 spy 3 hand quartz movement, pretty normal for all the 8 mhz 1 spy quartz movements out there.

I don't think Citizen will have a problem finding a case to pop that movement in to, or have to reduce the size of the movement to market it. A bored out 40mm Chronomaster case would probably work. If that proves problematic they could polish up one of those bigger gps or promaster watch cases.

Just speculating here without any market research, but if this is projected to be a replacement to the existing 5 spy, guess I would try to maintain similar size and design. If this is going to be a model to compliment the line, I'd make it bigger 42 or 44mm, and bolder in design to distinguish it from The Citizen. Go after the Breitling customers.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> Guess it's all relative, huge for a typical 5 spy 3 hand quartz movement, pretty normal for all the 8 mhz 1 spy quartz movements out there.


wbird FTW!

I have no rejoinder. ))


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



wbird said:


> Just speculating here without any market research, but if this is projected to be a replacement to the existing 5 spy, guess I would try to maintain similar size and design. If this is going to be a model to compliment the line, I'd make it bigger 42 or 44mm, and bolder in design to distinguish it from The Citizen. Go after the Breitling customers.


UTTER speculation here, but we've got the A010, A060, and soon presumably the 0100. All share the extreme accuracy niche, which seemingly makes the niche overcrowded. It would make sense to parcel out the space, maybe:

-- the A060 focuses on the lovely dial treatments seen in the AQ4020 and AQ4030 models. I suggest this because of size. The 4020s are 37.5; the 4030s are 38.4. A nice, somewhat dressier size, on the assumption that the 0100 models will run around 40mm. Altho looking now...there's the new AQ4040s, which have plainer dials. They're like the first ones, the AQ4000s...but executed in titanium rather than steel. OHHH...and there's an Eagle-marked, 5 SPY LE.

https://citizen.jp/product/the-citizen/lineup/detail/index.html?seihin_no=AQ4040-06A

They can also maintain the more standard dial treatments as options in the more compact size possible with the A060.

-- If that covers dressy watches, then the 0100 may be the "technical excellence" aspect, with visuals like the mens' versions of the Eco Drive One. I think carbon fiber would be an interesting case option.

-- the A010...have they released any new models? There's no reason to drop them, but it's mostly redundant, it seems, within the confines of the existing models. Perhaps a more sport-oriented? Better WR, case and dial shifting into the GADA/tool range, a la Rolex Explorer or Sinn 556a, or even a nicely executed pilot style a la the Mark XVIII.

Of course, it's been painfully evident that we don't understand Citizen's marketing approach, so I could be just blowing smoke here.


----------



## pdsf

*Citizen's new releases with Calibre 0100*

https://deployant.com/3-new-citizen...h-the-caliber-0100-worlds-most-precise-watch/

Pics are from the article.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

Just in:

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...ng-the-worlds-most-accurate-autonomous-watch/


----------



## Shark-sandwich

See-through case back was an unexpected but nice touch, glad they kept the size down below 38mm too. Not too keen on the prices though! Wow.


----------



## tsteph12

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Beautiful and expensive, yes. Perhaps prices may gradually fall over time with other releases, but was hoping for better water resistance than 50m.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Too expensive, no calendar & not too keen on dial.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## dicioccio

Almost incredible for a lot of us, but Citizen did it !

The number of the caliber slightly changed (0100 for the prototype, 0100S for this limited edition series). Nice touch the transparent back but to me unnecessary since the movement is not that special to see. Probably with a standard caseback the thickness could have been 1mm less. The hands and the dials are very classy but also very different from anything else. The black dial has several holes that should help light not to be reflexed. Glad to see the lume on all three, even if a bit minimal. The size is also perfect for such a watch.

I think we should now say a big thank Citizen for these new coming watches !


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tsteph12 said:


> Beautiful and expensive, yes. Perhaps prices may gradually fall over time with other releases, but was hoping for better water resistance than 50m.


Citizen will eventually use the movement in other cases & offer more models w/lower prices, greater water resistance, etc. My guess is by the end of this year.


----------



## ronalddheld

Missed posting this by an hour. Now who is getting one?
https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/caliber0100/


----------



## Shark-sandwich

One dial aspect that is most impressive about these watches is the perfect alignment of the second hand and indices when looking at the watch head-on. This is achieved by foregoing machine-cut gears and springs for a superior LIGA fabrication process. LIGA uses photolithography and electrocasting, allowing for the manufacture of ultra-precisely made parts. Using this process, Citizen is able to manufacture hands that align absolutely perfectly with indices.

And

On the ivory-colored dial, you’ll note the brass second hand with parabola curve corresponding with the curved edge of the dial. This helps in perfectly aligning the hands and indices. This model will come on a crocodile strap with an 18k white gold buckle and will be numbered out of 100.


Anyone want to have a go at decrypting that into plain English?


----------



## pdsf

I'd love one, e.g., the MOP, but sadly I can't afford any of them...


----------



## sriracha

Beautiful! But I'll wait for it to trickle down into other Citizens. And I think it's cool to see the quartz movement from the back...why not? It's decorated 

Seiko had a clear caseback showing of the decorated 9f in a model.


----------



## ronalddheld

I speculate that few long time posters will be able to afford one. We where correct that this year, there would be only LEs.


----------



## dicioccio

pdsf said:


> I'd love one, e.g., the MOP, but sadly I can't afford any of them...


 7400 USD for the 2 titanium and 16800 for the gold is a lot but not too much since there will produced only 800 (100+200+500). Probably the street price for a "not limited" version is half the price...


----------



## alexandrov

they should definitely work more on the design. Ugly, cheap-looking watches. I hope they have more presence in flesh.


----------



## GregNYC

Fantastic!!!! Citizen pushed the envelope!

As for getting one, I’m torn. I’m not crazy about the case design. Part of me wants to wait till the 0100 makes its way into more conventional designs. But who knows how I’ll feel by Autumn 2019, or whenever they actually come out!


----------



## tmathes

dicioccio said:


> 7400 USD for the 2 titanium and 16800 for the gold is a lot but not too much since there will produced only 800 (100+200+500). Probably the street price for a "not limited" version is half the price...


Posted in the other (longer) thread on the 0100:

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/citize...ng-the-worlds-most-accurate-autonomous-watch/

Price is too much for me, way too much. Count me out for now.

I appreciate the engineering involved but those designs. Well, um, meh and that's being kind. I've seen $200 Stilletos with better designs than this.

If I was willing to spend that kind of coin on a watch I'd rather have something nicer looking than any of these, don't care if the accuracy can't come close to it.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



Shark-sandwich said:


> One dial aspect that is most impressive about these watches is the perfect alignment of the second hand and indices when looking at the watch head-on. This is achieved by foregoing machine-cut gears and springs for a superior LIGA fabrication process. LIGA uses photolithography and electrocasting, allowing for the manufacture of ultra-precisely made parts. Using this process, Citizen is able to manufacture hands that align absolutely perfectly with indices.
> 
> And
> 
> On the ivory-colored dial, you'll note the brass second hand with parabola curve corresponding with the curved edge of the dial. This helps in perfectly aligning the hands and indices. This model will come on a crocodile strap with an 18k white gold buckle and will be numbered out of 100.
> 
> Anyone want to have a go at decrypting that into plain English?


For the 1st part:

Photolithography is the same process used for "printing" integrated circuits onto silicon. It's obscenely precise with even older equipment compared to traditional machining techniques. It's a lot more expensive than traditional machining/stamping though.

For the 2nd part:

They're curving the sweep second hand to be close to the dial at the edge, it looks like they contoured the dial up and the second hand down to make the tip really close to the dial, the parallax error in viewing the dial at multiple angles is nearly zilch doing this. Do a Google search for a parabola, it's basically the curve you get with a squared function.

This is impressive technology but the designs are 'meh' at best. I've seen $200 Stilettos that are better looking, these designs just don't look that elegant for such coin, the Eco Drive Ones looked a lot more interesting. Big pass for me, especially at the price being asked. If you're asking that kind of $$ I would have expected something like an Omega Tressor or a Rolex Celini type design, something elegant, timeless and pricey looking.

But kudos to the Citizen engineers for the technology and delivering it in such an ideal sized package. I hope it delivers on their promise but we're seeing how such small gains are at huge incremental cost. There's a LOT of expensive engineering in this line, I just wish the designs matched the tech put into it. Hopefully over time we'll see something trickle down to a more affordable range, perhaps something competing with the Longines VHP price range.


----------



## Tom-HK

The only version that appeals to me is the white gold version, but even the titanium versions are out of my price range. I hope this technology isn't going to fade away after this limited anniversary release, but I do wonder (what with all the extraordinary technology that they say has gone into making the cal. 0100) whether they could ever realistically bring the price down to something more commercially viable.


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator would want to own one, but the cost and hassle of buying one makes it unlikely at this time.


----------



## dicioccio

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

tmathes, I agree with everything you've just said except for the style. Not because I like the style (I am not particularly) and not because we are able to find something looking better (which is absolutely true). Instead, it's because these 3 watches, in my opinion, shouldn't be seen for how they appear but as the pinnacle of wristwatches autonomous accuracy. That is why, to me, the style is an aspect not very important. We could say the same thing for the original 1969 Seiko Astron: does anybody talked about its style ? I cannot almost remind how it looked but instead I know very well it was the first commercial quartz wristwatch. So to me it's the same with these 3 first commercial 0100 watches: the first autonomous wristwatches with a huge increase in accuracy in the last 30 years, more or less since when thermocompensation has been introduced.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



dicioccio said:


> tmathes, I agree with everything you've just said except for the style. Not because I like the style (I am not particularly) and not because we are able to find something looking better (which is absolutely true). Instead, it's because these 3 watches, in my opinion, shouldn't be seen for how they appear but as the pinnacle of wristwatches autonomous accuracy. That is why, to me, the style is an aspect not very important. We could say the same thing for the original 1969 Seiko Astron: does anybody talked about its style ? I cannot almost remind how it looked but instead I know very well it was the first commercial quartz wristwatch. So to me it's the same with these 3 first commercial 0100 watches: the first autonomous wristwatches with a huge increase in accuracy in the last 30 years, more or less since when thermocompensation has been introduced.


Fair enough. I just hope the price comes down over time.

The public was willing to pay for the increase in performance in the 1970s for quartz technology since it was well over an order of magnitude improvement, you had the time gain/loss over a month with quartz that you had in a day with mechanicals of the time. Also it was in an absolute metric a big increase in accuracy. Another plus was you had the nearly zilch need for service sans a cheap battery change every few years, it was an easy sell. Also, nearly everyone wore a watch back then so the market was big.

Today, it's not quite the same. People don't wear watches like they used to plus this watch has to compete with $300 'smart watches' that will be very accurate too. A cheap quartz is plenty accurate enough for most people (look at how the present HAQ is pretty much a niche product). I'm just not seeing the cost coming down that much over time just due to the volumes not being there anymore, the market changed a lot since the 70s.

I hope to be proven dead wrong, I'd love to have one of these movements in my collectcion but not with that price and especially that style. The fat hands just don't seem to be right to my eye for the design and tech used, for some reason I expected the slender hand design used in the Eco Drive Ones or Stilleto line. My gut feeling is they'll go the way of the 262kHz Bulova/Citizen movements, mostly fading away. Again, I hope I'm way, way off base.


----------



## tmathes

Maybe I missed it but is this a global product or Japan-market only?


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

LIGA explained in detail if anyone is interested:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGA

I'm also perplexed why Citizen makes a big deal of using brass for the sweep second hand. They don't explain what the advantage is.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



tmathes said:


> For the 1st part:
> 
> Photolithography is the same process used for "printing" integrated circuits onto silicon. It's obscenely precise with even older equipment compared to traditional machining techniques. It's a lot more expensive than traditional machining/stamping though.
> 
> For the 2nd part:
> 
> They're curving the sweep second hand to be close to the dial at the edge, it looks like they contoured the dial up and the second hand down to make the tip really close to the dial, the parallax error in viewing the dial at multiple angles is nearly zilch doing this. Do a Google search for a parabola, it's basically the curve you get with a squared function.
> 
> . . .


In addition, this Deployant article ( https://deployant.com/3-new-citizen-eco-drive-watches-with-the-caliber-0100-worlds-most-precise-watch/ ) has pictures that help illustrate your explanation.


----------



## Igorek

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Wow it looks beautiful but unfortunately way too expensive as I predicted.


----------



## Shark-sandwich

tmathes said:


> Maybe I missed it but is this a global product or Japan-market only?


In the press release there is an asterisk which indicates the LEs will be a worldwide release (to be marketed in specific stores).

Flagship stores then like New York, similar to some of the Chronomasters


----------



## Igorek

Maybe Mr. moderator merge this into one thread?


----------



## Shark-sandwich

Shark-sandwich said:


> tmathes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I missed it but is this a global product or Japan-market only?
> 
> 
> 
> In the press release there is an asterisk which indicates the LEs will be a worldwide release (to be marketed in specific stores).
> 
> Flagship stores then like New York, similar to some of the Chronomasters
Click to expand...

https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/s/news/2019/20190320-1/index.html


----------



## Igorek

I want!


----------



## gangrel

Looking at the visuals...

I think they're going all in with the crystal motif. The hands, the indices, they're reminiscent of the quartz crystal. Flat bottom, roundy-pointy top. They use the same language in talking about the bracelet too. 

I agree, it's not the most alluring dial I've ever seen, but I kinda like it.

Not sure if I'll get one of these. The bracelet's always a concern for me; I'd rather it was on strap. I see no reason not to expect they'll have non-LEs, altho it may not be until next year. "Autumn" already means October. So maybe February or March at the earliest. Can't say "at Baselworld 2020"...remember, the dates change. Plus, they want the splash presentation for the big unveiling; after this, any regular production models won't get the star treatment. That's if the Eco Drive One is any indication.

Well. Hm. Time to ponder.


----------



## tmathes

gangrel said:


> I think they're going all in with the crystal motif. The hands, the indices, they're reminiscent of the quartz crystal. Flat bottom, roundy-pointy top. They use the same language in talking about the bracelet too.


 I never picked up on this until your astute observation. Great catch. I still don't see it on the bracelet though but the hands, definitely.


----------



## gangrel

There's another release from Citizen about these, and they used the "crystal bracelet" language or something close. The notion is, it's a lattice.


----------



## dt75

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

The Bulova 262 khz movement is still more bang for the buck. Smooth sweeping seconds. A couple seconds per year accuracy.


----------



## tmathes

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



dt75 said:


> The Bulova 262 khz movement is still more bang for the buck. Smooth sweeping seconds. A couple seconds per year accuracy.


I agree but Bulova doesn't offer those movements in dress size cases. The closest model (Surveyor) was killed over 2 yrs. ago.

I have to wonder what the future is of the 262kHz calibres.


----------



## Igorek

For that price they could've included the date feature that I really would love to see on this watch.


----------



## gangrel

Igorek said:


> For that price they could've included the date feature that I really would love to see on this watch.


It's interesting to be sure. OK, lots of Citizen movements don't include a date, but usually it's on their ultra-thin...ED One obviously, but also the Stiletto movements. Those, tho, are for height reasons. Here, I wonder if the major factor is size. Cal 0100 is still a big sucker...now add a date wheel as well? The other factor might be room for the date mechanisms...driving the wheel, manual reset, that sort of thing. How big is the AT crystal portion? The movement has a higher power draw; how large is the power storage component? Did they feel they needed to absolutely maximize the solar cell surface area/exposure to deal with the power issues?

That said, if it's not gonna be a perp calendar, then I can live without a date. The whole point of a watch like this is, I don't mess with it.

Oh...of more note.

Does anyone recall a clear statement on whether this will have IAHH or not?

On the Bulova 262 Hz, we're talking a completely different class. The top Citizen lines...The Citizen/Chronomaster, Eco Drive One, and now this...are luxury market. Their GPS and fancier RF models are specialist products. The basic Eco Drives are everyday, mass market products...in their segment, IMO, the best out there. The 262 Hz are slightly upscale from that, but we're still talking mall jeweler class, say. They're more or less on par with Certina PreciDrives. The 0100s...even when the regular models come out...are competing with, say, Breitling. Chronomaster competes with GS; these are looking to push higher, it seems.

And "bang for the buck"...I have no idea what this means. If it's accuracy? There's no comparison. If this is what it costs to create autonomous 1 SPY, then this is what it costs. If Bulova's 5 SPM (pretty common performance, I understand) is good enough for you, then great. Go with it. Smooth sweep also means absolutely nothing to me; in fact, it's something of a negative when talking about accuracy of this level.

And yeah, some of the appeal is purely the technogeek factor. 1 SPY is 1 SPY. It's AMAZING, if it lives up to it. Can argue that, for now at least, any of us that buy it are paying a novelty premium. From a purely practical standpoint, a 5 SPY Chronomaster is the far superior value. But it's so 20th century. 

We're also paying for the R&D, as with the Eco Drive One, and the other Baselworld release I was monitoring, the Zenith Defy Lab version 2...called the Defy Inventor. The compliant oscillator. These have all been major, ergp presumably rather expensive, efforts, so the costs of the early models will reflect that.


----------



## royalenfield

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Time for GS to pick up the challenge.. and update the 9F

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ppaulusz

dicioccio said:


> ...The number of the caliber slightly changed (0100 for the prototype, 0100S for this limited edition series)...


Just for the record: The number of the caliber has not changed at all! It was always Cal.0100S but called for Cal.0100 in discussions. Here is the picture of the "prototype" pocket watch and it is clearly marked as 0100S:


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Methinks it will be $8k or more for steel/titanium. The conventional size will allow it to be cased in precious metal, in which case it may go to five-figures.
> 
> This is a world-first. No one else has anything even remotely close, just like the Eco-drive One. Citizen can go as high as they choose.


Looks like I got the pricing correct. Citizen will introduce more models of the 0100 in the next few years. There will be steel models for $4-5k.

High-torque stepper and hands that always align. Very nice.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> Looks like I got the pricing correct...


Yes, you did and for that price it is academic whether it is a limited version of a few hundred pieces or produced in very large numbers... as for that much money it won't sell in large numbers. Most of these limited numbers will be given as presents by Citizen to their corporate clients/partners or by the Japanese government to their diplomatic partners as was the case - according to rumors - with the limited number 1975 release of the gold octagonal dial Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) pictured here:


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Yes, you did and for that price it is academic whether it is a limited version of a few hundred pieces or produced in very large numbers... as for that much money it won't sell in large numbers. Most of these limited numbers will be given as presents by Citizen to their corporate clients/partners or by the Japanese government to their diplomatic partners as was the case - according to rumors - with the limited number 1975 release of the gold octagonal dial Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) pictured here:


Not much different from chronomaster. There were editions made in 50 or 100. The key is this will become a model line in the subsequent years, and there will be lower and higher price points available. But the 0100 is here to stay.

As for high-end watches as gifts, that's passe in the 21st century, especially as corporate gifts.

Citizen and Seiko don't give their LEs away unless it's specially commissioned to mark an event.

But then again, you got everything wrong about the 0100, so I'm not surprised.


----------



## ronalddheld

With the official information released, nothing to do,but wait for the fall?


----------



## RPF

gangrel said:


> It's interesting to be sure. OK, lots of Citizen movements don't include a date, but usually it's on their ultra-thin...ED One obviously, but also the Stiletto movements. Those, tho, are for height reasons. Here, I wonder if the major factor is size. Cal 0100 is still a big sucker...now add a date wheel as well? The other factor might be room for the date mechanisms...driving the wheel, manual reset, that sort of thing. How big is the AT crystal portion? The movement has a higher power draw; how large is the power storage component? Did they feel they needed to absolutely maximize the solar cell surface area/exposure to deal with the power issues?
> 
> That said, if it's not gonna be a perp calendar, then I can live without a date. The whole point of a watch like this is, I don't mess with it.
> 
> Oh...of more note.
> 
> Does anyone recall a clear statement on whether this will have IAHH or not?
> 
> On the Bulova 262 Hz, we're talking a completely different class. The top Citizen lines...The Citizen/Chronomaster, Eco Drive One, and now this...are luxury market. Their GPS and fancier RF models are specialist products. The basic Eco Drives are everyday, mass market products...in their segment, IMO, the best out there. The 262 Hz are slightly upscale from that, but we're still talking mall jeweler class, say. They're more or less on par with Certina PreciDrives. The 0100s...even when the regular models come out...are competing with, say, Breitling. Chronomaster competes with GS; these are looking to push higher, it seems.
> 
> And "bang for the buck"...I have no idea what this means. If it's accuracy? There's no comparison. If this is what it costs to create autonomous 1 SPY, then this is what it costs. If Bulova's 5 SPM (pretty common performance, I understand) is good enough for you, then great. Go with it. Smooth sweep also means absolutely nothing to me; in fact, it's something of a negative when talking about accuracy of this level.
> 
> And yeah, some of the appeal is purely the technogeek factor. 1 SPY is 1 SPY. It's AMAZING, if it lives up to it. Can argue that, for now at least, any of us that buy it are paying a novelty premium. From a purely practical standpoint, a 5 SPY Chronomaster is the far superior value. But it's so 20th century.
> 
> We're also paying for the R&D, as with the Eco Drive One, and the other Baselworld release I was monitoring, the Zenith Defy Lab version 2...called the Defy Inventor. The compliant oscillator. These have all been major, ergp presumably rather expensive, efforts, so the costs of the early models will reflect that.


The lack of a date is probably to distinguish it from the Chronomaster. If you notice, the epitome of a brand's watchmaking is usually date-free, either two- or three-hand time only. The highest-end GS is the 8-day Spring Drive. Time only. The highest end AP is the RO Tourbillon or the Double balance. Time Only. Similar with a host of other top brands.

I think those on this forum overemphasize the engine output (I'm making an analogy between accuracy and horsepower). Watches are jewelry. Whether the 0100 is "worth the price" is a function of how well-made it is, and to a secondary extent, the name on the dial. I'll have to wait some months to examine a sample, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> ...But then again, you got everything wrong about the 0100, so I'm not surprised.


Don't spare us from the details! Let's see those "everything" I got wrong about the 0100! Give us the list!


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator wants the personal sniping to stop. Time to go back to the technical discussions that dominated this forum in the near past


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## gangrel

RPF said:


> I think those on this forum overemphasize the engine output (I'm making an analogy between accuracy and horsepower). Watches are jewelry. Whether the 0100 is "worth the price" is a function of how well-made it is, and to a secondary extent, the name on the dial. I'll have to wait some months to examine a sample, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.


Not here. The technical aspects are commonly the focus. Morgenwerk, for example...utilitarian. Not unattractive, but utilitarian. Hoptroff never appealed to me, but the tech aspects were intriguiing.

It's different strokes for different folks. We all have our personal evaluation criteria, and they're all valid...for ourselves. Don't try to push yours on the rest of us.


----------



## RPF

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



ppaulusz said:


> Don't spare us from the details! Let's see those "everything" I got wrong about the 0100! Give us the list!


For one, you were convinced it would never be released.


----------



## tomchicago

On further reflection...there's nothing precluding Citizen from announcing regular production 0100 this year.


----------



## gangrel

tomchicago said:


> On further reflection...there's nothing precluding Citizen from announcing regular production 0100 this year.


Maybe not, no, but the timing seems short. Autumn means late September at earliest. You'd think that, if they were going to have something for, say, a November release, they'd go ahead and at least tease it now. IIRC, the 2nd round of ED One releases was about a year later.

Or, perhaps...announce late in the year for a spring 2020 release? That could happen, I guess, especially if pre-orders for the LEs are fairly strong, and if the production process is mature enough to ramp up somewhat. It seems unlikely that even the regular versions will sell heavily; I was thinking 4000 seemed a likely price point, but yeah, could run somewhat higher. Still, 4-5K is mostly the same range...Not Selling In Big Numbers.  Which, I suspect, is OK with Citizen. It's not that much more than the ED One models, which have a similar justification: showcasing Citizen's technical excellence. The point made earlier...it's time for Seiko to up their game...is relevant. I've heard consistently that these 2 are *serious* rivals.


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## woodville63

What I love about this watch other than the movement is how boringly normal looks. No fancy branding to tell you how special it is. The thought of owning a mega-accurate watch and people being none the wiser is fine by me. Unfortunately, I'll have to think about the price until my numbers come up.:-d


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*



RPF said:


> For one, you were convinced it would never be released.


Wrong as usual! I was not convinced that it would be released that is all which is quete different than what you try to suggest! Big difference but you try hard to make your point even by falsely stating my point. 
Read post #214 in this thread: "*Citizen might just release it for Baselword 2019 or might not but that article does not really solve the question of the time of the release. We have learnt nothing new about the Cal.0100 or its release by reading this article. Actually, reading the Cal.0100 parts of the article some might think that the author could have got his info by reading our forum...*"

I also pointed out that you were wrong when you speculated that the extraordinary power consumption of the MHz-range crystal might be the reason for the delay of the release of the Cal.0100 fitted watch as that issue has been solved by Citizen at least 40 years ago.

Not to mention that though you obviously had no idea still you were "brave" (I could use here more appropriate words but I am fully aware of the sensibility of this forum so let's just say "brave") enough to let us know of the _history of this forum according to you _that of course has nothing to do with reality but who cares?! That is how you present your points but don't worry I'm here to sort them out just for the sake of this forum. Thanks to that by now you should know who was the founder of this forum and who was the first moderator of this forum. Just a hint: next time better ask first before taking a "brave" attempt so we could avoid the unnecessary eggs on face scenario.

OK, you failed with your first one so let see the rest of those "everything"! Come on, don't be shy when it's your turn to prove your point... but be aware of those nasty eggs...!


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## dicioccio

Would you mind to stay focused on the topic ? I (and I suspect a lot of users here) are not interested in these unuseful arguments...


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## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator is giving another warning to stop. 
We finally have a watch with potentially new tech, and should be thinking about it new equipment will be needed to take measurements.


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## RPF

Sigh. This is no fun. This is a read only forum from now on.



Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## chris01

RPF said:


> Sigh. This is no fun. This is a read only forum from now on.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


On the rare occasions when I revisit this forum it dismays me to see that the children are still fighting in the playground.
If you can't kick the cr#p out of a loudmouth bully then just ignore him and walk away.


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## tmathes

So Chris, you seem to be our early adopter (the Precidrive and new VHP come to mind). Is this your next watch?


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## ronalddheld

tmathes said:


> So Chris, you seem to be our early adopter (the Precidrive and new VHP come to mind). Is this your next watch?


Good question, but unfortunately Chris does not stop by regularly anymore. 
I would prefer someone would and test it.


----------



## chris01

tmathes said:


> So Chris, you seem to be our early adopter (the Precidrive and new VHP come to mind). Is this your next watch?


Life moves on. The PD will soon be the subject of a 5-year retrospective, once the battery finally dies; the (new) VHP will remain an unloved and fading memory, which at least didn't cost me anything. As for the latest excitement, at around £8K for the 'cheap' versions, and with absolutely no proof of the claimed performance, I don't think so. I'm rather happy with my 4 old VHPs that since 1 Jan are all showing an annual rate in the range -2 to +2 SPY. I'm just going to enjoy what I have, and think about saving for my next decent car. I'll go away now, and be back when I've something to say. Perhaps I'll also be able to see a wrist shot that proves some people have considerably more money than sense.


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## tmathes

chris01 said:


> Perhaps I'll also be able to see a wrist shot that proves some people have considerably more money than sense.


Always ready with the pithy quote. :-!

That man won't be me for sure. Even if I did have $8k to spend on a watch it would not be on the designs introduced.


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## ronalddheld

Sounds like no one will buy one.


----------



## wbird

I can't help but give Citizen great praise for employing 21st century manufacturing processes and pressing the envelope on intrinsic quartz technology. The fact that they placed that movement in a 37.5mm case that is relatively thin is also somewhat surprising, considering early speculation that the movement was "huge" and could present problems. It is quite an incredible piece for what it is.

Am I interested in it? Not in the least. The price and design are just flat out unattractive to me, and sadly I think this technology, though novel, its time has probably past. 

I understand the design aesthetic is probably keeping with some form of Japanese simplicity, but it comes across as a high performnce movement in a bland and small package. Sort of like a high performance engine in a Prius. The power of the advanced manufacturing techniques like LIGA and photolithography is the ability to add detail to the dial, and uniqueness to the case shape and design. Look at the detail on the dials and case on a Rolex or a Patek to understand why I can't get excited by essentially a polished Exceed. 

I think I'm truly disappointed in the fact that they made the most accurate movement on the planet and it requires the user to set it manually. I would have been okay with a couple of mm's more of case size and a mm of thickness for a bluetooth set. You could keep the IAHH. I wouldn't have minded if they used LIGA to produce the gearing for a 32 or 64 beat per second, second hand, willing to sacrifice the power reserve, I don't live in the dark.

When I say this technology time has past, I mean the world of time keeping has changed considerably since quartz was introduced. Assuming I set it perfectly, can I say I'm wearing the most accurate clock on the planet, nope. Is it more accurate than a normally operating Apple watch, again no after two weeks assuming drift it will be more than 50ms off. Heck even the new 5 spm Citizen gps watches will be more accurate after a couple of months on any given day.

Again just me but this is a great movement, just not a great watch at that price. I'll be curious to see how well they sell.


----------



## GregNYC

ronalddheld said:


> Mr. Moderator is giving another warning to stop.
> We finally have a watch with potentially new tech, and should be thinking about it new equipment will be needed to take measurements.


Good point!


----------



## Hans Moleman

ronalddheld said:


> We finally have a watch with potentially new tech, and should be thinking about it new equipment will be needed to take measurements.


If new equipment is needed?

I don't think so. 
It has the usual design with pulses send to a stepper every second. The pulses can be picked up with a sensor and compared to a reference clock.

If its rate were constant over a year, it would lose 1/365 = 3 ms every day. Those deviations I can easily pick up.

I won't buy one, just to measure that though.


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## gtrenholme

My Bulova 262hz is running on track for less than 4 seconds per year. I gave one to my father last fall, and it is running on par with his radio synched Casio. Citizen technology!
Not sure why anyone would doubt Citizen’s accuracy claims given their long track record. To me this is a technical tour de force that stands on its own merits, and the high initial price of the introductory models is to be expected. But then, I am new to this forum and have much to learn 🙂


----------



## dicioccio

Hello guys, this in response to what wbrid and chris01 said.

I will skip everything about the style: this is a matter of personal taste so each one of us has its own. I cannot also say anything about the quality and fit or finish, since in this area I am not particularly experienced. More than that, I think the HAQ subforum is focused on technology rather than style so I'll try to stay focused me too (which doesn't happen so often anyway !).

Did the watch with this technology come too late ? I don't think so. Maybe to get such an incredible accuracy with just a quartz crystal needed new technologies to cut the crystal. Also don't forget we are talking about a wristwatch with limited power. However since HAQ sell volumes are low, we cannot expect companies to invest a lot of money in this area. Instead I am quite surprised that ETA produced a budget line such as the Precidrive and I am also surprised Citizen did the 0100 and brought is to us (which - it is good to remember - wasn't expected so soon by a lot of us, isn't it ??). Then I think we should thank Citizen for this unexpected watch instead of blaming it for the style, the price, the lack of calendar.

I also completely agree for the lack of any external connection. This watch is to give the user the ultimate autonomous accuracy. Putting RC or GPS or Bluetooth or any external reference would have simple destroyed the image of this independence and the "purity" of the watch itself.

If I need a watch that gives me absolute accuracy everyday, then I buy an RC watch or, wherever this signal is unavailable, a Bluetooth watch. This way my watch is synchronised everyday and that's it. If I buy a TC watch or the 0100 I am not buying a watch because I NEED everyday accuracy but only because I am looking for a "pure" watch, able to maintain its accuracy autonomously. I can continue on, but I think you don't need more because you've got the point quite right.

Now let's talk about the price. Let's made it clear and simple: no one "needs" a watch that cost a lot - no one. Even a standard cheap quartz is enough for everyday timekeeping. As correctly pointed out be thmates, 50 years ago wristwatches were ubiquitous because it was the main timekeeping device but nowadays we have a lot of references (such as cellphones or the screen of a computer) we don't really need that. So nowadays wristwatches are more jewelery that tools. If you need a toolwatch, then go for a Casio G-shock or a Garmin. If I buy a "classical looking watch" with analog dial, I am buying jewelery (and this is why the looking is therefore a lot relevant). In jewelery is important especially the "message" the object gives you and the way it makes you feel. Am I proud to own such a watch ? Does it give to me a sense of confidence (for example because I know the watch keeps great time even with no reference) ? I could go on, but I know you've understood what I mean.

To cut a long story short... aren't you particularly enthousiast for this watch (for the fit or finish) ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with its new technology. Doesn't its technology appeal you (you think it is too old) ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with its accuracy (claimed, of course ^_^). Aren't you willing to spend 7.4 k$ for it ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with the ability of Citizen to provide a new watch. Do you need "absolute accuracy" ? Fine, then look elsewhere (RC/GPS/BT) because as for now CSAC aren't yet available for a true wristwatch.

Again, I could go on and on but I think you've got the point. That is, even if I respect all the opinions about "how it looks", if it has IAHH, the lack of a calendar wheel, the fact that cost 3x a GS or Citizen.... I think we should focus on this new level of accuracy, that is, I would remind you that, 5 times better than a TC watch. And of course I know that a well trimmed 20 years old VHP could do the same or better but we are comparing apples with oranges.

In my opinion the point is that with such a new level of accuracy it becomes difficult to measure it, not counting the quartz ageing that could affect high frequency crystals more than "standard" 32 kHz. So the best question to ask is "how long will it take to know if the claimed accuracy is really good" ?


----------



## ronalddheld

dicioccio said:


> Hello guys, this in response to what wbrid and chris01 said.
> 
> I will skip everything about the style: this is a matter of personal taste so each one of us has its own. I cannot also say anything about the quality and fit or finish, since in this area I am not particularly experienced. More than that, I think the HAQ subforum is focused on technology rather than style so I'll try to stay focused me too (which doesn't happen so often anyway !).
> 
> Did the watch with this technology come too late ? I don't think so. Maybe to get such an incredible accuracy with just a quartz crystal needed new technologies to cut the crystal. Also don't forget we are talking about a wristwatch with limited power. However since HAQ sell volumes are low, we cannot expect companies to invest a lot of money in this area. Instead I am quite surprised that ETA produced a budget line such as the Precidrive and I am also surprised Citizen did the 0100 and brought is to us (which - it is good to remember - wasn't expected so soon by a lot of us, isn't it ??). Then I think we should thank Citizen for this unexpected watch instead of blaming it for the style, the price, the lack of calendar.
> 
> I also completely agree for the lack of any external connection. This watch is to give the user the ultimate autonomous accuracy. Putting RC or GPS or Bluetooth or any external reference would have simple destroyed the image of this independence and the "purity" of the watch itself.
> 
> If I need a watch that gives me absolute accuracy everyday, then I buy an RC watch or, wherever this signal is unavailable, a Bluetooth watch. This way my watch is synchronised everyday and that's it. If I buy a TC watch or the 0100 I am not buying a watch because I NEED everyday accuracy but only because I am looking for a "pure" watch, able to maintain its accuracy autonomously. I can continue on, but I think you don't need more because you've got the point quite right.
> 
> Now let's talk about the price. Let's made it clear and simple: no one "needs" a watch that cost a lot - no one. Even a standard cheap quartz is enough for everyday timekeeping. As correctly pointed out be thmates, 50 years ago wristwatches were ubiquitous because it was the main timekeeping device but nowadays we have a lot of references (such as cellphones or the screen of a computer) we don't really need that. So nowadays wristwatches are more jewelery that tools. If you need a toolwatch, then go for a Casio G-shock or a Garmin. If I but a "classical looking watch" with analog dial, I am buying jewelery (and this is why the looking is therefore a lot relevant). In jewelery is important especially the "message" the object gives you and the way is makes you feel. Am I proud to own such a watch ? Does it give to me a sense of confidence (for example because I know the watch keeps great time even with no reference) ? I could go on, but I know you've understood what I mean.
> 
> To cut a long story short... aren't you particularly enthousiast for this watch (for the fit or finish) ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with its new technology. Doesn't its technology appeal you (you think it is too old) ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with its accuracy (claimed, of course ^_^). Aren't you willing to spend 7.4 k$ for it ? Fine, but this has nothing to do with the ability of Citizen to provide a new watch. Do you need "absolute accuracy" ? Fine, then look elsewhere (RC/GPS/BT) because as for now CSAC aren't yet available for a true wristwatch.
> 
> Again, I could go on and on but I think you've got the point. That is, even if I respect all the opinions about "how it looks", if it has IAHH, the lack of a calendar wheel, the fact that cost 3x a GS or Citizen.... I think we should focus on this new level of accuracy, that is, I would remind you that, 5 times better than a TC watch. And of course I know that a well trimmed 20 years old VHP could do the same or better but we are comparing apples with oranges.
> 
> In my opinion the point is that with such a new level of accuracy it becomes difficult to measure it, not counting the quartz ageing that could affect high frequency crystals more than "standard" 32 kHz. So the best question to ask is "how long will it take to know if the claimed accuracy is really good" ?


Well said.


----------



## wappinghigh

ronalddheld said:


> Sounds like no one will buy one.


Well I think these are _simply awesome._

However, I look forward to the 4-5K "steel" versions.

Because that's more my style. As long as they are the same size and weight, at 1 sec per ear and so unassuming, and powered by the sun ? for 4K = perfection.

Unfortunately 7.5K USD is simply out of my price range.

If others can afford this and get their hands on one I say go for it!

W


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## wappinghigh

These watches are simply Awesome!


----------



## PetWatch

There's a total of 800 pieces released by Citizen in this first release. They obviously know their reputation going forward rests on meeting specs, so it's probably safe to say these have been thoroughly tested to meet specs. It will be interesting to see if they can pull off the difficult feat of making a model line of reliable to specs HAQ's.


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## Facelessman

I do like these watches but they are wayyyyyy beyond my budget.


----------



## tomchicago

Not a great showing imo by any means. The technology is fabulous, but the design, features & price points relegate this, for the time being, to a narrow curiosity. Hopefully Citizen integrate this technology in a more accessible, better designed, feature-rich watch like they did with their current HAQ movement.


----------



## gangrel

tomchicago said:


> Not a great showing imo by any means. The technology is fabulous, but the design, features & price points relegate this, for the time being, to a narrow curiosity. Hopefully Citizen integrate this technology in a more accessible, better designed, feature-rich watch like they did with their current HAQ movement.


That begs the question, tho...what do they do with the A010 and A060? The A010 isn't being used in anything new, at least that I can recall; all the AQ10xx models are old. I suspect they'll keep it around for those who want the PR indication, but it doesn't seem to be a strategic movement for them. The A060 is, tho. They've been doing the classic dress look with them, very nicely. They released the eagle-marked LE quite recently...which is a big strike, IMO, against them releasing a regular-production 0100 this year.

So what are they gonna do? If the 0100 is in a more-or-less visual equivalent to the recent AQ4000s, using the same materials, then it's hard to see it moving past a technical curiousity if it stays in the neighborhood of 4000. Option 2, there's a general push-down effect. The G530 could be repositioned into their $300-400 (MSRP) range, like the Stilettos. Then, the A060 might slide into a mid-range line, a la Seiko's positioning with the Presage Prestige mechanicals...they're pretty much junior Grand Seiko. MSRP in the $1000 range, with, if desired, 5 SPY LEs in the 1500-2000 range. THEN you can probably put the 0100s into highly finished dress models akin to, say, the AQ4030 paper dials.


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## ppaulusz

tomchicago said:


> Not a great showing imo by any means. The technology is fabulous, but the design, features & price points relegate this, for the time being, to a narrow curiosity. Hopefully Citizen integrate this technology in a more accessible, better designed, feature-rich watch like they did with their current HAQ movement.


I dared to write exactly 2 months ago: 
"_- If Citizen charges considerably more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current The Citizen models selling for then the new wristwatch with Cal.0100 won't do well with sales.
- If Citizen charges just a bit more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current The Citizen models selling for then the current The Citizen models won't do well with sales.
I think the above marketing issues have more to do with the delay than anything else! Citizen has to pick which finger to bite..._"
Source: post #263 of this thread. I'm glad you guys getting there with some delay... but better late than never!


----------



## ronalddheld

My nearly opaque crystal ball thinks around $4-5K for the first serial 0100s watches. Depending on how they do may determine the medium term fate of the Axxx calibers.


----------



## woodville63

I think it's got a lot to do with the manufacturing cost, which determines the price floor. Citizen as a brand makes great watches but they can't position as a premium brand and charge thousands for a $20 quartz movement like the Swiss. Seiko, in my mind, has greater brand recognition and even they price their GS quartz at $2000ish, so I'm not sure Citizen can go that much higher as evidenced by current chronomaster pricing. Also, note how similar the Seiko and Citizen GPS watch pricing is. Of course they can price high but what volume will they see? Enough to turn a profit on the R+D and factory cost? We don't know. I'm hoping the manufacturing cost is reasonable and they can substitute the current chrono movements at the same price. The marketing problem they have is 5s chronomaster and superlative chronomaster. It's not worth the hassle of extending the chronomaster brand to me as they can't price high like the Swiss unless they do a Toyota/Lexus. Is there a prize?


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## dicioccio

I dare to say that all the speculations above are insulting to the marketing people at Citizen which, for sure, already analysed extensively all the possibilities. A great company like Citizen wouldn't have made the 0100 without any commercial strategy in mind.


----------



## ppaulusz

ppaulusz said:


> I dared to write exactly 2 months ago:
> "_- If Citizen charges considerably more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current The Citizen models selling for then the new wristwatch with Cal.0100 won't do well with sales.
> - If Citizen charges just a bit more money for a wristwatch with Cal.0100 than the current The Citizen models selling for then the current The Citizen models won't do well with sales.
> I think the above marketing issues have more to do with the delay than anything else! Citizen has to pick which finger to bite..._"
> Source: post #263 of this thread. I'm glad you guys getting there with some delay... but better late than never!


Citizen would not be the only company who missed the boat (if missed it at all) with a project... Take Sony and its Betamax (that was superior technologically to VHS still the marketing department at Sony failed with it).
Citizen might have other reason than direct commercial profit with the Cal.0100... It can be called indirect commercial profit if you can be seen as the manufacturer of the most accurate/precise watch even if you just release it in very limited numbers.
Obviously Citizen went for the prestige and succeeded (let's assume that these Cal.0100 fitted watches will be released in these limited numbers in 6 months time). A corporate giant like Citizen can afford the luxury of show-off. That can be occasionally much more effective than spending a fortune on advertising.
We, the end-users might not get what we really wanted (an affordable Cal.0100 fitted wristwatch) as the present promise of the limited edition watches with the Cal.0100 is not really for us as we cannot afford the huge price of them. I can't see Citizen abandoning the current The Citizen offerings and that would not allow room for an affordably priced watch fitted with the Cal.0100.


----------



## tomchicago

I haven't seen any "live" shots of the 0100 LE's. Are there any? 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## RPF

Japanese retailers are calling the 0100 "the Citizen", just like the Chronomasters, so the 0100 will join them in "the Citizen" lineup. 

If you want a PC and 1.5 year power reserve, go Chronomaster. 

If you want the 1s per year marketed to hit every marker around the dial, go 0100. But you lose the PC and long PR. The hands look more like those on mechanicals, courtesy of the high-torque stepper. 

I don't see the 0100 cannibalizing sale of the Chronomaster, or vice versa, because the market for this genre is very exclusive. If you want one, you have to go looking for one, even in Japan. These are not watches available at every friendly Citizen retailer. The products are sufficiently differentiated to carve their own niches. 

What is more important is the effort Citizen expended bringing this to life--it wasn't just a straightforward accuracy exercise. The claim that every 0100 will hit the markers all around the dial is extraordinary--I believe it is a first. LIGA gears... that's what I call commitment. And a quartz watch to boot!

The 0100 is here to stay. I hope they release a pocket watch version.


----------



## woodville63

dicioccio said:


> I dare to say that all the speculations above are insulting to the marketing people at Citizen which, for sure, already analysed extensively all the possibilities. A great company like Citizen wouldn't have made the 0100 without any commercial strategy in mind.


Get asked to do this all the time at business school. Great way to learn: predict what the big company will do and see how wrong you are. I truly don't understand why you find our speculation insulting. It's a compliment to Citizen that we deign to opine.:-d


----------



## wbird

Just my thoughts, but Citizen just got two years of free advertising from the cal 0100s. If they would have brought out the watch last year would have missed out on an additional year of free press.

As far as R&D costs, this probably doesn't represent a great deal of their entire budget, and they certainly didn't break any new ground with anything other than the movement. Those costs were more than offset by all that free press that the Citizen Watch group received.

As to manufacturing costs, I doubt that the Chronomaster line is running at capacity. So redeploying those folks and retooling that line for a small run of a 1000 or less of these movements isn't going to have a great deal of impact on manufacturing costs.

As to the marketing plan seems to make a lot of sense to me. Make a vanity product to meet the expectations they created last year, that has little or no market demand, price it as exlusive or extrodinary, produce a limited number, use as many existing components as possible, and position it so it doesn't canilbilize any exsiting products. If people buy it great. If they don't who cares, its not their core business or market sector. If it takes ten years to sell those limited editions does Citizen really care. FC, Arnold and Son, and Campanola service that market sector for Citizen.

I wonder if Citizen ever got a bunch of press for making and marketing a high frequency watch with high accuracy in the past just to show they could, and than stopped making them.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Just my thoughts, but Citizen just got two years of free advertising from the cal 0100s. If they would have brought out the watch last year would have missed out on an additional year of free press.
> 
> As far as R&D costs, this probably doesn't represent a great deal of their entire budget, and they certainly didn't break any new ground with anything other than the movement. Those costs were more than offset by all that free press that the Citizen Watch group received.
> 
> As to manufacturing costs, I doubt that the Chronomaster line is running at capacity. So redeploying those folks and retooling that line for a small run of a 1000 or less of these movements isn't going to have a great deal of impact on manufacturing costs.
> 
> As to the marketing plan seems to make a lot of sense to me. Make a vanity product to meet the expectations they created last year, that has little or no market demand, price it as exlusive or extrodinary, produce a limited number, use as many existing components as possible, and position it so it doesn't canilbilize any exsiting products. If people buy it great. If they don't who cares, its not their core business or market sector. If it takes ten years to sell those limited editions does Citizen really care. FC, Arnold and Son, and Campanola service that market sector for Citizen.
> 
> I wonder if Citizen ever got a bunch of press for making and marketing a high frequency watch with high accuracy in the past just to show they could, and than stopped making them.


You make it sound like citizen is some new kid in the park mixcrobrand.

Citizen pursues technology doggedly. Even if they are still only no. 2 in Japan they have outcompeted seiko in several areas such as highest specced accuracy, best GPS sync, surface hardness, solar charging and quartz complications among others.

We can be confident the 0100 is here to stay because of the effort that went into this line. We now know the 0100 was delayed because it took time to refine the movement which went beyond mere timekeeping. This is an artisan quartz watch.


----------



## wbird

RPF said:


> You make it sound like citizen is some new kid in the park mixcrobrand.
> 
> Citizen pursues technology doggedly. Even if they are still only no. 2 in Japan they have outcompeted seiko in several areas such as highest specced accuracy, best GPS sync, surface hardness, solar charging and quartz complications among others.
> 
> We can be confident the 0100 is here to stay because of the effort that went into this line. We now know the 0100 was delayed because it took time to refine the movement which went beyond mere timekeeping. This is an artisan quartz watch.


Not sure why you introduced Seiko into the conversation, but Citizen is, and has been the number 1 watch brand in sales dollars and units in Japan for years. Not sure why the watch will be available in the Fall, maybe it took time to refine the unit, like you said. Maybe just a marketing decision. But unless you have some inside info, we do don't know why the timing for release is fall.

Perhaps the 0100 is here to stay, or maybe it will go the way of Citizen Crystron 4 mega. Who knows, but there doesn't seem to be a lot folks around here lining up to buy one.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Not sure why you introduced Seiko into the conversation, but Citizen is, and has been the number 1 watch brand in sales dollars and units in Japan for years. Not sure why the watch will be available in the Fall, maybe it took time to refine the unit, like you said. Maybe just a marketing decision. But unless you have some inside info, we do don't know why the timing for release is fall.
> 
> Perhaps the 0100 is here to stay, or maybe it will go the way of Citizen Crystron 4 mega. Who knows, but there doesn't seem to be a lot folks around here lining up to buy one.


Seiko is considered more prestigious. It shows in the number of posts here. Check out the citizen and seiko forums. Citizen's real competition is seiko when it comes to bragging rights.

The watches we talk about here such as the gs and chronomaster have been available for decades. They just were not talked about in English speaking places. In fact these watches were not available outside of Asia until about 10 to 15 years ago when internet commerce took off. Japan alone is 125 million. China has a huge middle class. Taiwan and hk millions. These markets alone can and will sustain a thousand watch run. At any rate the citizen range is an artisanal lineup made in low quantities due to the handwork involved. They are not exactly flying off the shelves but their staying power and evolution is remarkable. From battery powered to solar to 1s per year to perfect alignment it has been a decades long labor of love.


----------



## woodville63

Yes, it will be interesting to see what Citizen does. We do know that Citizen likes to churn its haq portfolio. How many are still being manufactured? 1730 2710 2730 0310 0330 0330G G530 G540 E410 E510 A610 A660 A670 A690 A735 A780 7711 A010 A060

As an aside, I have always wanted to know why the E510 was ditched and sort of replaced by G530?


----------



## dicioccio

woodville63 said:


> Get asked to do this all the time at business school. Great way to learn: predict what the big company will do and see how wrong you are. I truly don't understand why you find our speculation insulting. It's a compliment to Citizen that we deign to opine.:-d


Hello, sorry if I sounded offensive to you all, of course it was not my intention at all ! I just wanted to point out that many are discussing about the marketing strategies of a big company like Citizen but I think that the Citizen employees and managers know exactly what they are doing and they know that far better than we could do. So it is ok for me to do speculations and playing a lot with this, but honestly I can't think a single user is able to do better strategies than Citizen people as well as I don't agree those users who disagree these strategies. Maybe it would be more "lowly" to say "I don't understand" rather than "I disagree", that's all. And I am the first one who many times don't understand things...

As for brand competition Seiko vs Citizen, I think that Citizen do the numbers and probably produces on average better products than Seiko. However, according to my very personal experience when I go to Japan, Seiko has a slightly better reputation in the luxury segment. The managers I see usually have on their wrists Rolex or Seiko, very seldom a Citizen. Again, it's my personal experience so I am not giving you figures from a public survey...


----------



## ronalddheld

Not certain why so many marketing posts, but that may be due to the lack of further data/information.


----------



## tomchicago

I'm wondering why there aren't any live photos/videos. Did Citizen not have the actual 0100 watches at Basel? All we have are the heavily processed marketing photos which imo are usually terrible.



ronalddheld said:


> Not certain why so many marketing posts, but that may be due to the lack of further data/information.


----------



## RPF

tomchicago said:


> I'm wondering why there aren't any live photos/videos. Did Citizen not have the actual 0100 watches at Basel? All we have are the heavily processed marketing photos which imo are usually terrible.


Just go to YouTube. Several short videos released recently.


----------



## Gerald_D

Hello everyone. Ok, so let's clear up a few things.

First a little background about me - I am a massive Grand Seiko fan, having initially spent a great deal of time and resource building up a vintage Grand Seiko collection, and subsequently started dealing in them. Additionally, I have spent thousands of hours researching and documenting vintage Grand Seiko history, as anyone who has visited my website will be aware.

In the last 15 months or so I have also started to build up a collection of vintage Seiko quartz watches (VFA's, Superiors, Grand and King quartz) now numbering in excess of 50 pieces.

The one thing I was looking forward to more than anything at Baselworld this year was the release of a Citizen wristwatch using the 0100 caliber. For me, the most interesting and important aspect of collecting watches is chronometry - so much so that I actually took a little pilgrimage to Neuchâtel Obserservatory whilst in Switzerland purely to take a photo of my Seiko 1967 observatory competition movement at the place it was timed.

For me - a Grand Seiko guy through and through - these 0100 references were by far and away the most impressive watches at Baselworld. But more than that, they represent the biggest leap in autonomous chronometry that can be worn on the wrist of the last 40-odd years.

I was fortunate enough to spend a good 30-40 minutes with a Citizen General Manager to discuss these new releases at Baselworld last Sunday. It took quite a bit of doing to get the time with them, but it wasn't long into the discussion before everyone around the table realised it was going to be time well spent.

Firstly, to those saying that they think these won't sell, you couldn't be further from the truth.

Regardless of how poor you may think Citizen's marketing of these has been, these will sell out quickly. Citizen's presentation of the watches at Baselworld was excellent. The problem is that I think Citizen don't really know how to engage with the watch journalists and bloggers who we all love so much and have so much respect for. It seems these days that to get pretty much any immediate coverage, you need to fly these people around in private jets (like DeBethune did), or ply them with expensive meals and copious amounts of alcohol.

But we're only talking about 800 pieces here - and just word of mouth will sell them. I know many, many people who have already made very firm commitments to buy. I myself will be getting the MoP dial, have been asked to secure an 18K gold one for a very serious collector (by serious, I mean "owns Roger Smiths, Dufours, Daniels, Journes..." serious), and know several hard-core GS collectors who are lining up for them.

My strong advice to anyone seriously considering one of these is to not hang about, and call your AD sooner rather than later, because once the buzz around these starts to grow (and it will - I am pretty sure that we will be reading an in depth article on this watch from a top journalist on one of the top blogs in the not too distant future), you might find yourself on the waitlist.

Now, regarding whether or not we will see this movement filtering down into cheaper watches, I was told a firm "no". Not for years, if at all. Now you may well say "well they would say that at this stage, wouldn't they?", and you would of course be correct. But I have no reason to suspect I was being lied to. A significant amount of work is required in the testing and selection of components and the finished movements.

Just one example - every single crystal has to be individually tested in order to create a unique temperature profile for that crystal - the watch compensates for temperature variations once per minute, and applies corrections based on performance curves that were created for the individual crystal in testing. Basically - there is a unique table of data stored in each watch that is only relavent for that watch's crystal. Good luck fully automating and scaling up that process in order to bring the price down.

Citizen had one watch on a digital timing machine that had some text displayed above it explaining that the watch needed to have a precision better than +/-0.0027 seconds per day in order to have an accuracy of +/- 1 second per year. Now, I'm not entirely certain that you get to an annual accuracy simply by multiplying the daily accuracy by 365 (I would have expected that the daily accuracy would be a probability distribution between +/- 0.0027, so you'd need to find the integral of the distribution, and then multiply that by 365, or some such mathematical magic), but regardless, the watch on display was actually showing a consistent precision of between -0.0009 and -0.0010 seconds per day throughout the two days that I was at the show (I went back to check many times). 3x better than that required.

Given that, the ability of the watch to compensate for temperature, and for any knocks that may whack a hand out of position, I think we can be fairly confident in Citizen's claims here.

One thing that occurred to me after having first heard of the watch was how to cope with changing time zones? Obviously when you have a watch this accurate, you don't want to be resetting the thing every time you hop off an airplane. Fortunately - and something missed I think by everyone who had written about the watch until I handled it (even the guy from Citizen who presented the watch to me didn't realise this when I asked about it) - you can independently set the hour hand without interrupting the time keeping.

You can see a video of this in action here (those are my hands and that's me speaking on the video) -


__
http://instagr.am/p/Bvb6jlsncIW/

Without that functionality, I would have passed on the watch, because this really must be regarded as a "set once and forget" watch in my opinion, and I travel frequently.

With that functionality, it's an essential purchase for me.

If anyone has any further questions that I haven't addressed, fire away and I will do my best to answer them if I can.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

one more thing...


__
http://instagr.am/p/BvbHhiBA5Ol/

It really is _that_ good.


----------



## tmathes

Thank for that Gerald. I hope the Citizen IAHH mechanism is more robust than the ones in the Swatch Group movements and have vastly better alignment for the hour hand vs. the minute hand than them too. 

I have a Certina and Omega with IAHH and despise that mechanism due to the lousy hand alignment (common gripe). To add insult to injury, after reading some comments from a highly regarded repair expert on the WUS Omega forum the blasted mechanism is also a common fail point to boot. What a winning combination. :roll: 

At least you don't have to toggle this Citizen's hour hand 24-48 times in a row every few months like in the Swatch Group products with a calendar.


----------



## woodville63

Gerald_D said:


> Now, regarding whether or not we will see this movement filtering down into cheaper watches, I was told a firm "no". Not for years, if at all. Now you may well say "well they would say that at this stage, wouldn't they?", and you would of course be correct. But I have no reason to suspect I was being lied to. A significant amount of work is required in the testing and selection of components and the finished movements.


Oh, well, 10s will have to be good enough for me. It will be interesting to see whether they offer it to other brands. Thanks for the post - very informative.:-!


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.fratellowatches.com/citizen-caliber-0100/
Not certain this adds much.


----------



## gangrel

The pics are better in that post. 

For right now, I'm gonna pass. I hope you're right, Gerald_D, and these DO sell heavily...because hopefully that'll shorten the time interval until the first non-limited models hit the market. If these are *really* hot, then we might see something in a Jan/Feb time frame.


----------



## tomchicago

Great writeup, Gerald. Thank you for sharing. Did the lack of date complication come up at all in the discussion? Seems that a perpetual calendar would be de rigeur for this quartz pricepoint.


----------



## ppaulusz

Gerald_D said:


> Hello everyone. Ok, so let's clear up a few things.
> 
> First a little background about me - I am a massive Grand Seiko fan, having initially spent a great deal of time and resource building up a vintage Grand Seiko collection, and subsequently started dealing in them. Additionally, I have spent thousands of hours researching and documenting vintage Grand Seiko history, as anyone who has visited my website will be aware.
> 
> In the last 15 months or so I have also started to build up a collection of vintage Seiko quartz watches (VFA's, Superiors, Grand and King quartz) now numbering in excess of 50 pieces.
> 
> The one thing I was looking forward to more than anything at Baselworld this year was the release of a Citizen wristwatch using the 0100 caliber. For me, the most interesting and important aspect of collecting watches is chronometry - so much so that I actually took a little pilgrimage to Neuchâtel Obserservatory whilst in Switzerland purely to take a photo of my Seiko 1967 observatory competition movement at the place it was timed.
> 
> For me - a Grand Seiko guy through and through - these 0100 references were by far and away the most impressive watches at Baselworld. But more than that, they represent the biggest leap in autonomous chronometry that can be worn on the wrist of the last 40-odd years.
> 
> I was fortunate enough to spend a good 30-40 minutes with a Citizen General Manager to discuss these new releases at Baselworld last Sunday. It took quite a bit of doing to get the time with them, but it wasn't long into the discussion before everyone around the table realised it was going to be time well spent.
> 
> Firstly, to those saying that they think these won't sell, you couldn't be further from the truth.
> 
> Regardless of how poor you may think Citizen's marketing of these has been, these will sell out quickly. Citizen's presentation of the watches at Baselworld was excellent. The problem is that I think Citizen don't really know how to engage with the watch journalists and bloggers who we all love so much and have so much respect for. It seems these days that to get pretty much any immediate coverage, you need to fly these people around in private jets (like DeBethune did), or ply them with expensive meals and copious amounts of alcohol.
> 
> But we're only talking about 800 pieces here - and just word of mouth will sell them. I know many, many people who have already made very firm commitments to buy. I myself will be getting the MoP dial, have been asked to secure an 18K gold one for a very serious collector (by serious, I mean "owns Roger Smiths, Dufours, Daniels, Journes..." serious), and know several hard-core GS collectors who are lining up for them.
> 
> My strong advice to anyone seriously considering one of these is to not hang about, and call your AD sooner rather than later, because once the buzz around these starts to grow (and it will - I am pretty sure that we will be reading an in depth article on this watch from a top journalist on one of the top blogs in the not too distant future), you might find yourself on the waitlist.
> 
> Now, regarding whether or not we will see this movement filtering down into cheaper watches, I was told a firm "no". Not for years, if at all. Now you may well say "well they would say that at this stage, wouldn't they?", and you would of course be correct. But I have no reason to suspect I was being lied to. A significant amount of work is required in the testing and selection of components and the finished movements.
> 
> Just one example - every single crystal has to be individually tested in order to create a unique temperature profile for that crystal - the watch compensates for temperature variations once per minute, and applies corrections based on performance curves that were created for the individual crystal in testing. Basically - there is a unique table of data stored in each watch that is only relavent for that watch's crystal. Good luck fully automating and scaling up that process in order to bring the price down.
> 
> Citizen had one watch on a digital timing machine that had some text displayed above it explaining that the watch needed to have a precision better than +/-0.0027 seconds per day in order to have an accuracy of +/- 1 second per year. Now, I'm not entirely certain that you get to an annual accuracy simply by multiplying the daily accuracy by 365 (I would have expected that the daily accuracy would be a probability distribution between +/- 0.0027, so you'd need to find the integral of the distribution, and then multiply that by 365, or some such mathematical magic), but regardless, the watch on display was actually showing a consistent precision of between -0.0009 and -0.0010 seconds per day throughout the two days that I was at the show (I went back to check many times). 3x better than that required.
> 
> Given that, the ability of the watch to compensate for temperature, and for any knocks that may whack a hand out of position, I think we can be fairly confident in Citizen's claims here.
> 
> One thing that occurred to me after having first heard of the watch was how to cope with changing time zones? Obviously when you have a watch this accurate, you don't want to be resetting the thing every time you hop off an airplane. Fortunately - and something missed I think by everyone who had written about the watch until I handled it (even the guy from Citizen who presented the watch to me didn't realise this when I asked about it) - you can independently set the hour hand without interrupting the time keeping.
> 
> You can see a video of this in action here (those are my hands and that's me speaking on the video) -
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/Bvb6jlsncIW/
> 
> Without that functionality, I would have passed on the watch, because this really must be regarded as a "set once and forget" watch in my opinion, and I travel frequently.
> 
> With that functionality, it's an essential purchase for me.
> 
> If anyone has any further questions that I haven't addressed, fire away and I will do my best to answer them if I can.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Gerald.
> 
> one more thing...
> 
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/BvbHhiBA5Ol/
> 
> It really is _that_ good.


So I was right and much briefer: "_A corporate giant like Citizen can afford the luxury of show-off. That can be occasionally much more effective than spending a fortune on advertising. We, the end-users might not get what we really wanted (an affordable Cal.0100 fitted wristwatch) as the present promise of the limited edition watches with the Cal.0100 is not really for us as we cannot afford the huge price of them._"


----------



## gangrel

tomchicago said:


> Great writeup, Gerald. Thank you for sharing. Did the lack of date complication come up at all in the discussion? Seems that a perpetual calendar would be de rigeur for this quartz pricepoint.


You either do no date or perp calendar, IMO; I'm fine with no date personally.

That said, perhaps that will be in a version 2 or 3, should there prove to be enough demand at whatever the final price point will be. And possibly to the manufacturing process mature, before adding the complication.


----------



## woodville63

ppaulusz said:


> So I was right and much briefer: "_A corporate giant like Citizen can afford the luxury of show-off. That can be occasionally much more effective than spending a fortune on advertising. We, the end-users might not get what we really wanted (an affordable Cal.0100 fitted wristwatch) as the present promise of the limited edition watches with the Cal.0100 is not really for us as we cannot afford the huge price of them._"


It makes me want to fall to my knees and bow my head out of reverence.:-d


----------



## Gerald_D

ppaulusz said:


> So I was right and much briefer: "_A corporate giant like Citizen can afford the luxury of show-off. That can be occasionally much more effective than spending a fortune on advertising. We, the end-users might not get what we really wanted (an affordable Cal.0100 fitted wristwatch) as the present promise of the limited edition watches with the Cal.0100 is not really for us as we cannot afford the huge price of them._"


Apologies but I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

"Much briefer"?

Well yeah, I guess it's pretty easy to be "much briefer" if you don't actually discuss the subject matters I wrote about.

What an utterly bizarre interjection. Feel free not to bother yourself by engaging with me again.


----------



## ronalddheld

Maybe the serial produced watches will have the PC?


----------



## Gerald_D

ronalddheld said:


> Maybe the serial produced watches will have the PC?


What serially produced watches?


----------



## ronalddheld

Gerald_D said:


> What serially produced watches?


The ones we speculate will be released next year.


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> The ones we speculate will be released next year.


That's got to be the funniest thread of all!:-d


----------



## ronalddheld

BaselWorld 2019: The Citizen +/- 1 Second Caliber 0100 - Luxe178 Community


----------



## wbird

Since we're speculating, maybe it doesn't have a date, is because a date wheel takes up dial space, and they didn't want to sacrifice any of that surface area used to charge it. That crystal requires quite a bit more energy than a standard cut and frequency. Just guessing but all the "The Citizen" movement models show no variation they all have a date, I don't expect the 0100s models to ever have a date.

I'm a little confused on why they will come out with much cheaper models. If those LE's sell at that price quickly, well that's pretty much the price for future models. What would be the incentive to reduce it? If they don't sell, well that's a different story. Unlike the Eco-Drive One these aren't going to be on the website in the US, aren't part of the normal distribution, and one store in NYC, doesn't count as distribution. The point is I don't expect a lot of gray market bargains, and they can't bump into Chronomaster pricing so 6 or 7k is probably going to be the price going forward.

I am curious what people think is the appropriate price for a product of this type. Personally I don't see this watch as unaffordable, heck other than the gold model, their cheaper than some quartz Breitlings and most Rolex's. The thing is to me its not about affordability but desirability. Is it visually iconic in any way? Or does it look like a really nicely polished Exceed. Incredible movement in an ordinary package.

Maybe a collector might buy one to put in a safe, I buy my watches to wear them, and visually this watch is small, boring, and frankly quite derivative of their cheaper models. I don't have a problem spending above 7k on a 3 hand no date watch. If I want LIGA in the manufacturing process, white gold markers, exceptional shock resistance, great bracelet, exceptional case, better WR, and a beautiful distinct and iconic dial and second hand, I could buy a Rolex Milgauss for the same money. 

Just me I want my inexpensive watches to look expensive and well made, I don't want my expensive watch to look inexpensive. Sure some expensive watches look ordinary from a distance, but if has Patek, Cartier, IWC, or any one of a number of brand names on the dial they can get away with it, they don't make inexpensive watches and quality is assumed.

Like I said, I will be curious how quickly they sell, I read great things and expected the 6000$ Eco-Drive 1 LE to sell that run of 2500 fairly quickly worldwide, their still available on the US website.


----------



## DaveM

If it had a date it would have to be Perpetual.
Independantly Adjustable Hour Hand is essential for a practical a high accuracy watch.
Solar power with a good safety margin is a big plus.
But I think that lack of date improves the aesthetic, & the simplification can only help to achieve the primary objective, to be the worlds most accurate commercially available watch.
I think that it looks good, but is it worth the price ? Would have to see what it looks like on my wrist.
To consistently achieve 1s per-year over a reasonable temperature range will not come cheap, things like selecting aged xtal and measuring temperature-curve of each xtal. But at this price I would expect it to meet specification without any 'weasel word' let outs.
The extra price of a gold or platinum case is a total rip-off, but this is standard fashion-industry practice/


----------



## Ahriman4891

wbird said:


> ...visually this watch is small, boring, and frankly quite derivative of their cheaper models...


That's my main problem with it too (and Citizen's endemic short hands). I just don't find it handsome, and I won't spend 7k+ just to have "the most accurate watch in the world" which I would hardly wear. Citizen has a wealth of interesting designs to draw upon from their history, it's a pity they went with this.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> Maybe a collector might buy one to put in a safe...


The safe better have a decent light source inside it, this isn't a mechanical. I'd be afraid of the rechargeable cell going bad if kept dark for months (years?) at a time.


----------



## wbird

tmathes said:


> The safe better have a decent light source inside it, this isn't a mechanical. I'd be afraid of the rechargeable cell going bad if kept dark for months (years?) at a time.


You're probably right a window sill would probably be a better place to store it. But it does make me think, what happens if I fully charge it, pull out the crown, and store it in the dark? Wouldn't it last for years and operate like new once I push the crown in? Not that I would ever do it, just curious.


----------



## ronalddheld

wbird said:


> You're probably right a window sill would probably be a better place to store it. But it does make me think, what happens if I fully charge it, pull out the crown, and store it in the dark? Wouldn't it last for years and operate like new once I push the crown in? Not that I would ever do it, just curious.


If you did that, would the stated standby time hold?
I would be concerned about the yearly temperature variations on a window sill.


----------



## wbird

ronalddheld said:


> If you did that, would the stated standby time hold?
> I would be concerned about the yearly temperature variations on a window sill.


I would think standby time would only work with crown in and in power saving mode, crown out, no time keeping or significant power usage. As far as the window sill, my most accurate watch sits there now, I would hope that the TC in 0100s could handle this variation.


----------



## ronalddheld

wbird said:


> I would think standby time would only work with crown in and in power saving mode, crown out, no time keeping or significant power usage. As far as the window sill, my most accurate watch sits there now, I would hope that the TC in 0100s could handle this variation.


Could use to see the manual, but I have not looked for it.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Since we're speculating, maybe it doesn't have a date, is because a date wheel takes up dial space, and they didn't want to sacrifice any of that surface area used to charge it. That crystal requires quite a bit more energy than a standard cut and frequency. Just guessing but all the "The Citizen" movement models show no variation they all have a date, I don't expect the 0100s models to ever have a date.
> 
> I'm a little confused on why they will come out with much cheaper models. If those LE's sell at that price quickly, well that's pretty much the price for future models. What would be the incentive to reduce it? If they don't sell, well that's a different story. Unlike the Eco-Drive One these aren't going to be on the website in the US, aren't part of the normal distribution, and one store in NYC, doesn't count as distribution. The point is I don't expect a lot of gray market bargains, and they can't bump into Chronomaster pricing so 6 or 7k is probably going to be the price going forward.
> 
> I am curious what people think is the appropriate price for a product of this type. Personally I don't see this watch as unaffordable, heck other than the gold model, their cheaper than some quartz Breitlings and most Rolex's. The thing is to me its not about affordability but desirability. Is it visually iconic in any way? Or does it look like a really nicely polished Exceed. Incredible movement in an ordinary package.
> 
> Maybe a collector might buy one to put in a safe, I buy my watches to wear them, and visually this watch is small, boring, and frankly quite derivative of their cheaper models. I don't have a problem spending above 7k on a 3 hand no date watch. If I want LIGA in the manufacturing process, white gold markers, exceptional shock resistance, great bracelet, exceptional case, better WR, and a beautiful distinct and iconic dial and second hand, I could buy a Rolex Milgauss for the same money.
> 
> Just me I want my inexpensive watches to look expensive and well made, I don't want my expensive watch to look inexpensive. Sure some expensive watches look ordinary from a distance, but if has Patek, Cartier, IWC, or any one of a number of brand names on the dial they can get away with it, they don't make inexpensive watches and quality is assumed.
> 
> Like I said, I will be curious how quickly they sell, I read great things and expected the 6000$ Eco-Drive 1 LE to sell that run of 2500 fairly quickly worldwide, their still available on the US website.


For the date there is no need to add one.

If we look as gs most of their automatics have a date module but they also produce hand wounds with no date. They are sufficiently differentiated to stay in the stable.

The 0100 has enough uniqueness to stand on it's own against the chronomasters. The pr reserve may improve in the future to more than 12 months but I think the specs are impressive enough not to have any challengers in the foreseeable future.


----------



## GregNYC

Gerald, thanks for the report! I'm on the list at the NYC Boutique to take a look when they come in. I haven't put down a deposit and know I may lose out. I'd like to see them first. But at least I'll will be among the first to see them.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> I would think standby time would only work with crown in and in power saving mode, crown out, no time keeping or significant power usage. As far as the window sill, my most accurate watch sits there now, I would hope that the TC in 0100s could handle this variation.


The lithium rechargeable cell has self-discharge like every other battery. I don't know what the discharge rate looks like but you can't keep it indefinitely uncharged and expect the cell to stay stable. You'd have to keep it topped up to get maximum life out of it which means light exposure.

Replacing the cell is likely not as complicated as taking apart a mechanical for a complete service but I'd expect any owner would like to avoid cracking open the case if at all possible. I haven't heard details on this but I wonder if the guts of the 0100 movement are sealed like in the Seiko GS quartz movements.


----------



## wbird

tmathes said:


> The lithium rechargeable cell has self-discharge like every other battery. I don't know what the discharge rate looks like but you can't keep it indefinitely uncharged and expect the cell to stay stable. You'd have to keep it topped up to get maximum life out of it which means light exposure.
> 
> Replacing the cell is likely not as complicated as taking apart a mechanical for a complete service but I'd expect any owner would like to avoid cracking open the case if at all possible. I haven't heard details on this but I wonder if the guts of the 0100 movement are sealed like in the Seiko GS quartz movements.


No doubt there will some self-discharge, but can't imagine it could be too much worse than a battery in a watch with the crown pulled and blocked in the store or a battery in a wrapper. The shelf life for a battery is around ten years, rechargeables are longer but also dependent on the charge recharge cycles. Fully charge it every couple of years, pull the crown, put it in the safe, should be good long enough to sell in your lifetime.

I kind of hoped with this product they would have put something like a 20 year warranty on the movement to back up the stated quality and solar performance. What would have been really nice would be if Citizen shipped every watch set from the factory with high accuracy to GMT. The owner could than set it using the IAHH to their local time.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> No doubt there will some self-discharge, but can't imagine it could be too much worse than a battery in a watch with the crown pulled and blocked in the store or a battery in a wrapper. The shelf life for a battery is around ten years, rechargeables are longer but also dependent on the charge recharge cycles. Fully charge it every couple of years, pull the crown, put it in the safe, should be good long enough to sell in your lifetime.
> 
> I kind of hoped with this product they would have put something like a 20 year warranty on the movement to back up the stated quality and solar performance. What would have been really nice would be if Citizen shipped every watch set from the factory with high accuracy to GMT. The owner could than set it using the IAHH to their local time.


Rechargable cells have a much higher self-discharge rate than any primary battery (ie, non-rechargable ones):

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/elevating_self_discharge

Shelf life of a primary Li battery is 10 yrs, definitely NOT any rechargeable.

The Li cell in these solar watches are similar to the Li-ion cells in a computer but not identical, they don't have the energy density but also are more rugged. The discharge rates are similar, at 1-2%/month you could have half of the life gone under 2 yrs. doing nothing (likely worse). The circuitry likely is active all the time even if you pull the stem, I think they stated 6 months life in power save mode. So the floor is easily under a year and the cell will be flat and that just kills battery life.

Bottom line: don't let this watch go flat. Seiko Kinetic owners do it often and that just kills the battery life. this bugger needs to be in the open, if in a safe it'll need some light source to keep it charged up.


----------



## tmathes

I did a bit of digging and what is used in solar watches is a lithium manganese-titanium cell. Some details:

https://www.powerstream.com/BatteryFAQ-manganese-titanium.html

http://www.chealwatch.com/instructions/Panasonicmangtit.pdf

The Panasonic MT series appears to be a popular replacement cell.

One advantage these cells have over Li-ion cells (ie the ones in a phone/laptop) is they can be overcharged with no damage nor safety issues. That isn't the case with Li-ion, those can go "BOOM" or catch fire with overcharging.

That's why reputable makers of Li-ion cells have over-charge protect circuitry built into the battery pack.


----------



## wbird

I agree that it would be best to store it in the light, but Citizen makes, ships, and stores Eco-Drive watches in closed boxes with the crown out. I doubt when the crown is out that there is anything going on with the circuitry, just the battery discharge. The drain even in power saving mode is kind of significant considering Citizen says that if your watch is low and you want to charge your watch 3X faster pull out the crown. 

Power saving mode on my Syhawk still moves the minute and hour hands, stops the second hand, but keeps a count on where it should be. Once you have enough charge the second hand goes to the proper location and ticks along.

Once you pull out the crown, you're not in power saving mode, time is all lost, you're setting your watch, no good reason to store anything, other than diagnostics, and I doubt Citizen is doing that.

If some collector, definately not me, chose to charge it once a year and than put it in his safe with no light, can't see how he would have a problem. If this is a problem Citizen couldn't sell 1 year old Eco-Drives.

Just a last thought Citizen uses a LiTi type battery, Seiko didn't use the type of Lithium battery/capacitor on their early kinetic models but have since switched to this technology on their later models do they still have problems with holding a charge after being allowed to drain completely.


----------



## tmathes

wbird said:


> Seiko didn't use the type of Lithium battery/capacitor on their early kinetic models but have since switched to this technology on their later models do they still have problems with holding a charge after being allowed to drain completely.


The issue with the Seiko Kinetics:

- If you wear it daily, no issues, it'll last as long as a Citizen ED watch. Your daily movement will keep it topped up.
- If you have a lot of watches (like me), and especially you have one of the Kinetics with months of capacity, a day's worth of wear won't keep the thing remotely topped up if you didn't wear it for, say, a week or two.
- The battery slowly wears down and since it's not recharged fully the battery can die if you don't wear it often or aren't diligent to shake it for quite a while on a schedule to keep it charged.
- To get it charged up again requires a lot of attention and time on your part. It's not as easy as putting the watch on a window sill. And no regular watch winder will charge a Kinetic, the turn speed is waaay too slow.

Plus to get the damned thing started from a dead state could take a lot of swinging/shaking of the watch to get it charged up. I know I had to do that with mine, too about about 3-4 min. of shaking to get it just start.

As an example of what kind of a PITA Seiko's kinetic is, I have a Direct Drive kinetic flavor, it has 30 days of reserve. My once a week 'charge' session requires about 10 minutes of shaking the watch to charge up the thing to full. Now if you have one of the longer lived Kinetics and you don't wear it but ever few weeks (I wear mine maybe once ever 2-3 weeks) you can see how the cell can be killed, basically by not charging it up unless you're diligent. You could wait until it's 1/2 charged but to put months of charge back into it you better have a few hours to spare to shake it. You might be lucky and get an induction charger that works (I haven't been able to so far) but that seems to me to defeat the entire idea of rechargable watch like this, 'no maintenance" is thrown out the window. And the AC power you use willoutstrip the energy used to make a throw-away that lasts 3-5 years.

Citizen was smart with the solar charging, Kinetic is a good idea on paper but in practice if you have more than 1-2 watches it is a lousy idea. And the "Direct Drive" idea (ie you "wind" the watch to charge it, you're turning a tiny generator) is great on paper but pathetic in practice. It take over a minute of winding to get 6 hrs. of charge into the watch. So for a week's worth of charge it takes about HALF AN HOUR of winding. Like I said, good on paper but nearly useless in practice.

So why did I buy it? I'm a sucker for a nicely designed moon phase watch.


----------



## dicioccio

tmathes said:


> I did a bit of digging and what is used in solar watches is a lithium manganese-titanium cell. Some details:
> 
> https://www.powerstream.com/BatteryFAQ-manganese-titanium.html
> 
> http://www.chealwatch.com/instructions/Panasonicmangtit.pdf
> 
> The Panasonic MT series appears to be a popular replacement cell.
> 
> One advantage these cells have over Li-ion cells (ie the ones in a phone/laptop) is they can be overcharged with no damage nor safety issues. That isn't the case with Li-ion, those can go "BOOM" or catch fire with overcharging.
> 
> That's why reputable makers of Li-ion cells have over-charge protect circuitry built into the battery pack.


Casio for sure claims their products have a protection against over charge, so no problem. I think however it is a standard protection for all the watches with solar charge.


----------



## tomchicago

Chinch bugs........manganese........ 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.fratellowatches.com/citizen-caliber-0100-new-eco-drive-watches/


----------



## vulcan666

The NY flagship store has a waiting list and thinks they may have more names than pieces coming already. They're guessing October for actual shipment.

I have a black ceramic automatic Rado with a dark MOP dial, and this ultra-accurate 0100S would be a fantastic companion piece. Finding out it does have IAHH (independently adjustable hour hand) was the last barrier to wanting to add this watch. Crossing my fingers!

I'm now glad I didn't pull the trigger on the GS day-date quartz good to 5 secs/year. I'm guessing the finishing would be better than on the Citizen, but 1 second per year? Wow.


----------



## Hans Moleman

> The NY flagship store has a waiting list and thinks they may have more names than pieces coming already. They're guessing October for actual shipment.


Great!
I hope there are enough for the people who are interested.

And that the forum gets a chance to look over your shoulder and share the experience.

Good to see that the negative arguments, there always seem to be millions of those, did not win over.


----------



## gangrel

Hans Moleman said:


> Great!
> I hope there are enough for the people who are interested.


Actually...as long as we're talking legitimately interested in owning, rather than buying as a speculation...I rather hope demand exceeds supply by a large margin.

Cuz hopefully that means they'll come out with new ones soonest. The risk, of course, is that might convince them to keep the price so high. No, don't want that. But hey, as long as they have more basic models, if they wanna do exotic LEs too? I'm good with that.


----------



## gangrel

Another intro story just out:

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-eco-drive-caliber-0100-introducing

Throws in a few points suggesting why the price tag is up there, too.


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## ronalddheld

I read that earlier, but did not see anything really new tp post the link.


----------



## RPF

gangrel said:


> Another intro story just out:
> 
> https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/citizen-eco-drive-caliber-0100-introducing
> 
> Throws in a few points suggesting why the price tag is up there, too.


It mentions a crystron from 75 with 6 month battery life instead of 2 years.


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> I read that earlier, but did not see anything really new tp post the link.


The only new thing was that it got wrong the battery life of the first 1975 release _Crystron 4 MEGA _(_Cal.8650A_). The article claims 6 months when it fact it was 1 year.
The battery life of the second 1979 release of the _Crystron 4 MEGA _(_Cal.7370D_) was 2 years.
Here is a quote from the English language _Technical Information _of _Cal.7370D_:
"_About 2 years of power cell life. Owing to realization of the low power consumption, the life time of power cell can be extended about double in comparison with the preceding Cal.No.8650A along with reduced thickness of the power cell._"

Let's repeat again: Citizen 40 years ago already had the technical knowhow to manage 2 years battery life out of a 4.19MHz movement. Yes, 40 years ago and since that Citizen got smarter (as everyone else as well) so power consumption was not an obstacle in case of the new Cal.0100S movement as the evidence clearly show.

Note: I had owned both Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA watches (the one fitted with Cal.8650A and the one with Cal.7370D) so I know what I'm talking about. Yet this forum rather gives credit to "articles" that contain completely false info without any reference to back those info while on the other hand I'm getting a royal treatment of "give us the proof"!:-d:-d:-d


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## ronalddheld

I recall getting approximately 13 months for my Omega MC.


----------



## davidn

tmathes said:


> Thank for that Gerald. I hope the Citizen IAHH mechanism is more robust than the ones in the Swatch Group movements and have vastly better alignment for the hour hand vs. the minute hand than them too.
> 
> I have a Certina and Omega with IAHH and despise that mechanism due to the lousy hand alignment (common gripe). To add insult to injury, after reading some comments from a highly regarded repair expert on the WUS Omega forum the blasted mechanism is also a common fail point to boot. What a winning combination. :roll:
> 
> At least you don't have to toggle this Citizen's hour hand 24-48 times in a row every few months like in the Swatch Group products with a calendar.


Longines (part of Swatch Group) in their VHP range have a superb alignment system, all the hands hit the markers perfectly and you can wind on by one hour or more without losing time. Perfect for travelling into different time zones. This gear position detection system is superb. It also has perpetual calendar. Also has protection system versus magnetic fields.


----------



## tmathes

davidn said:


> Longines (part of Swatch Group) in their VHP range have a superb alignment system, all the hands hit the markers perfectly and you can wind on by one hour or more without losing time. Perfect for travelling into different time zones. This gear position detection system is superb. It also has perpetual calendar. Also has protection system versus magnetic fields.


The VHP has an hour hand that's motor controlled, I have a couple of Citizens like that and they do hold their alignment well. I like those set-ups.

What I refer to is the mechanically coupled hour hand like in the Certinas or Omegas. Those mechanisms are weak spots in their designs and often result in lousy hour hand alignment. I have two in my watch case (the 2 brands mentioned) and they're within spec, which is +/- 5 minutes. The two I own don't hit the hour mark until 3 min. past the hour. I hope this Citizen doesn't use that lousy system.

At least with the Citizen 0100 you won't have to spin the hour hand 24 to 72 times every other month to change the date (and hasten the IAHH mechanism wear-out)


----------



## Chaos_meme

dicioccio said:


> I dare to say that all the speculations above are insulting to the marketing people at Citizen which, for sure, already analysed extensively all the possibilities. A great company like Citizen wouldn't have made the 0100 without any commercial strategy in mind.


Citizen watches sell for well under MSRP all of the time. Even the Times Square flagship store has offered me significant discount on the Signature line. Their marketing people appear to use prestige pricing. This is similar to, but not nearly as hilariously abused as Invicta where the tag says a price that makes you think that you're getting a great deal on an expensive watch.

But I think that they are also considering the R&D costs as well to be baked into the price. Regardless, it does appear that the allotment for the flagship Times Square store has managed to already have their allotment spoken for at full price. So I do agree that the marketing folks have done their job well to maximize revenue from early adopters.

personally, I think this is one of the most striking designs ever to come out of Citizen, let alone Japan. The case, markers, hands, and bracelet are all fresh d new while remaining conservative. I think that the design will age very well and be desireable for years to come. However, these are way out of my price range for the next few years. So I'm hoping that they do come down a bit and show up second hand for like new condition, or new unsold stock for a substantial discount like a lot of high end citizens tend to do over time. I'm currently tracking the prices of eco drive one models down into the sub $1500 range, but there simply are not enough of them out there yet to drive the price down except for a few examples here and there.

I think citizen hit hit it out of the park with this watch. I hope they can make a ton of money on it.


----------



## tmathes

Chaos_meme said:


> I think citizen hit hit it out of the park with this watch. I hope they can make a ton of money on it.


Unlike most of their new offerings they also kept the case size well under 46mm!! :-d


----------



## ronalddheld

https://deployant.com/review-citizen-aq-6010-06a-caliber-0100-the-most-accurate-watch-in-the-world/


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE4XJP6AiYzO9YHCQS-55GFk7rPVQ
Haven't watched the video before posting this link.


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNE4XJP6AiYzO9YHCQS-55GFk7rPVQ
Haven't watched the video before posting this link.


----------



## tomchicago

Thanks for posting. While the 0100 is great, the first very limited edition production models will be far out of reach for nearly everyone. I'm keen to hear how and whether they plan more regular production models using 0100, hopefully with perpetual calendar and base metals.


----------



## dicioccio

My apologies to everyone who may sound offended, but I don't understand why so many people complains about the selling price.

Just yesterday I was surfing the Omega website and I've seen a lot of watches well above 8000 euro, each one with just ordinary mechanical movements and ordinary materials. Now, when a Swiss brand sells their mechanicals at this price no one complains because everyone is accustomed to the fact a good mechanical "deserves" a large amount of money to be purchased. Therefore why wouldn't we accept that a good quartz deserves a lot of money ? And why THIS PARTICULAR and EXCEPTIONAL watch wouldn't deserve sucha a high price ?

I have to say that I am irritated by the fact a quartz weatch is expected to be significantly cheaper that a mechanical one. Of course I understand that everyone of us would like to buy a watch at the lowest possible price but in this case I don't understand why the 0100 should be cheaper than that.

We can like or dislike the look, but as for quality I see no difference with the best Swiss in the same price range.

So again I do not understand why you all complain about the price, especially considering it is a limited production of a very special watch with new characteristics (which cannot be said for most of the Swiss production).

Last but not least: DaveM said it is not expected soon to have a "mass production" model of the 0100 and it seems that the accuracy is achieved not only by the new movement but also by the accurate selection of the crystal. Considering that all, I don't find the watch expensive at all...


----------



## gangrel

dicioccio said:


> My apologies to everyone who may sound offended, but I don't understand why so many people complains about the selling price.


Because it's more than they want to spend, of course.

Same reason why people complain about the price of a Rolex.

I think there will be regular-production versions, in the sense that there won't be only a set number of model XYZ. That said, with a price tag presumably in the 4-5K range, it's not clear what the overall demand will be, especially given that the market for this also has to include the Chronomasters, especially the eagle-marked models, and the Eco Drive One. Even assuming crystal cut and selection is an issue...that's not a big deal, is it? Seiko does it with the 9Fs; I suspect Citizen does it too with the Chronomasters. And we're not talking huge numbers...seems hard to believe the worldwide demand for the 0100 would be more than a couple thousand a year, ESPECIALLY if Citizen only markets it extremely narrowly. I got my Eco Drive One from a dealer in Pennsylvania, IIRC, who ordered it through Citizen USA. So, OK, ADs *could* get it, but no one knows this due to the marketing. I'm presuming the 0100 is similar...all we're hearing is, we can go see one at the NYC boutique. That's it. How many people who would be interested...but aren't wackos like we are...will be willing to work so hard to find it?


----------



## wbird

dicioccio said:


> My apologies to everyone who may sound offended, but I don't understand why so many people complains about the selling price.
> 
> Just yesterday I was surfing the Omega website and I've seen a lot of watches well above 8000 euro, each one with just ordinary mechanical movements and ordinary materials. Now, when a Swiss brand sells their mechanicals at this price no one complains because everyone is accustomed to the fact a good mechanical "deserves" a large amount of money to be purchased. Therefore why wouldn't we accept that a good quartz deserves a lot of money ? And why THIS PARTICULAR and EXCEPTIONAL watch wouldn't deserve sucha a high price ?
> 
> I have to say that I am irritated by the fact a quartz weatch is expected to be significantly cheaper that a mechanical one. Of course I understand that everyone of us would like to buy a watch at the lowest possible price but in this case I don't understand why the 0100 should be cheaper than that.
> 
> We can like or dislike the look, but as for quality I see no difference with the best Swiss in the same price range.
> 
> So again I do not understand why you all complain about the price, especially considering it is a limited production of a very special watch with new characteristics (which cannot be said for most of the Swiss production).
> 
> Last but not least: DaveM said it is not expected soon to have a "mass production" model of the 0100 and it seems that the accuracy is achieved not only by the new movement but also by the accurate selection of the crystal. Considering that all, I don't find the watch expensive at all...


Well in my opinion Citizen hasn't spent the capital to position themselves as a luxury brand. Therefore the expectations are a little different. Omega has spent years and lots of money convincing the market that what their buying is special. That brand recognition didn't happen overnight, and enables the to command a luxury markup.

Citizen has spent decades marketing, as their name suggests they are the watch of the people. Great watches at affordable prices.

People are willing to spend lots of money on quartz watches. You can't get a Patek Philippe quartz watch for under 10k, even a 30 year old 2 hand, no diamonds, yellow gold Calatrava will set you back close 10k. Let's not forget about Breitling B50 and B55 models that sell in a similar price range to the 0100.

It should be noted there are lterally 100's of places in the US I can view and handle a Patek or an Omega, before buying, I'm not even sure the 0100 will be on the US website.

As for this watch and this forums the lack of interest in this piece its not just the price, it's is also a function of a pretty boring design, a limited ability to view and handle one, and possibly a disinterest in a precious metal case.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Well in my opinion Citizen hasn't spent the capital to position themselves as a luxury brand. Therefore the expectations are a little different. Omega has spent years and lots of money convincing the market that what their buying is special. That brand recognition didn't happen overnight, and enables the to command a luxury markup.
> 
> Citizen has spent decades marketing, as their name suggests they are the watch of the people. Great watches at affordable prices.
> 
> People are willing to spend lots of money on quartz watches. You can't get a Patek Philippe quartz watch for under 10k, even a 30 year old 2 hand, no diamonds, yellow gold Calatrava will set you back close 10k. Let's not forget about Breitling B50 and B55 models that sell in a similar price range to the 0100.
> 
> It should be noted there are lterally 100's of places in the US I can view and handle a Patek or an Omega, before buying, I'm not even sure the 0100 will be on the US website.
> 
> As for this watch and this forums the lack of interest in this piece its not just the price, it's is also a function of a pretty boring design, a limited ability to view and handle one, and possibly a disinterest in a precious metal case.


Citizen is just starting.

Omega is almost exclusively mechanical. And their quartz offering is always less glam and cheaper. Which is why they have a small quartz portfolio.

Rolex is entirely mech. Using timekeeping from 1755.

Quartz is a dirty word in the world of men's jewelry.

Some of the worlds priciest quartz watches are made by citizen. This has been the case for decades. They are just not marketed outside of Japan. There are many watches in the 2 to 4k range from attesa to exceed to the citizen. Readily available in Japan.


----------



## DaveM

wbird said:


> a pretty boring design


1s per year
Solar operation
Simple dial focused just on TIME without an ugly date window
Seconds hand hits markers 'spot on'
Exhibition case back.

May not be everybody's cup of tea, but hardly boring.


----------



## wbird

RPF said:


> Citizen is just starting.
> 
> Omega is almost exclusively mechanical. And their quartz offering is always less glam and cheaper. Which is why they have a small quartz portfolio.
> 
> Rolex is entirely mech. Using timekeeping from 1755.
> 
> Quartz is a dirty word in the world of men's jewelry.
> 
> Some of the worlds priciest quartz watches are made by citizen. This has been the case for decades. They are just not marketed outside of Japan. There are many watches in the 2 to 4k range from attesa to exceed to the citizen. Readily available in Japan.


I don't know Citizen is 100 year old company, can't think of any company with that much history going upscale and breaking into the luxury market. I guess it's possible, but I don't think their really trying. They now have Naiomi Osaka, the winner of the last two tennis majors, as a brand ambassador. She wears a Citizen on and off the court and it costs way less than 1k.

Strangely when talking Omega the Z-33 is actually more expensive than their iconic and best selling Speedmaster Pro Moonwatch. Go figure. But I agree they offer a larger selection of mechanical watches that are more stylish.

I think Rolex would argue that their technology is more from the 1920's and Hardwood's automatic watch movements. But I get your point, old technology compared to quartz. But isn't quartz 50 year old tech?

I agree that quartz watches don't fare well in the mens dress watch category. Gotta say I'm not all that interested in one. But in the sports watch category they get a lotta love. Tag Heuer can sell a pretty pedestrian Rhonda quartz chronograph for about the same as a Chronomaster, Breitling sells that B55 for more than the Citizen LE 0100s.

I agree if you include Campanola, Citizen sells some beautiful and pricey quartz watches, but they are not even close to the prices AP, VC, Patek, and even Breitling charge. Their more in the range of Cartier and Tag. Pricey but definately not the priciest.


----------



## wbird

DaveM said:


> 1s per year
> Solar operation
> Simple dial focused just on TIME without an ugly date window
> Seconds hand hits markers 'spot on'
> Exhibition case back.
> 
> May not be everybody's cup of tea, but hardly boring.


The thing is when it's on your wrist you don't see solar, 1 spy, or an exhibition case back. Although the second hand hitting the markers is great, unless you stare at your watch dead on, most folks will never notice. The design you see is a smallish 37.5mm watch, with a simple dial no different than their much cheaper Chronomaster watches except it doesn't have a date. By the way date is a measure of TIME, and haven't heard any complaints of its presence on the Chronomaster.(or a Calatrava for that matter)

Yeah its boring to me, and me and many people on these forums say the same about the simple and similar design of a 20k Patek Calatrava. At least the Calatrava has an interesting movement and hinged display case back, with the 0100, is there anything about that movement worth seeing?

I can respect the watches performance and not be impressed with its appearance. Me I won't sacrifice appearance for performance, but If others like the entire package they can buy it.


----------



## dicioccio

Hello wbird,
I got your point but from what you wrote it is still not yet clear to me why the 0100 doesn't have the same "dignity" to be sold for similar prices than other brands. In other words, a lot of posts here (from everybody) say "great watch but too much pricey to me": now there are a lot of ordinary or boring watches sold for a lot more and no one complaints about that. No one says anything about the quartz from Breitling or Omega... so why so many about this 0100 ?


----------



## harald-hans

Question - any idea where there will be a chance to order one AQ6021-51E ?


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> I don't know Citizen is 100 year old company, can't think of any company with that much history going upscale and breaking into the luxury market. I guess it's possible, but I don't think their really trying. They now have Naiomi Osaka, the winner of the last two tennis majors, as a brand ambassador. She wears a Citizen on and off the court and it costs way less than 1k.
> 
> Strangely when talking Omega the Z-33 is actually more expensive than their iconic and best selling Speedmaster Pro Moonwatch. Go figure. But I agree they offer a larger selection of mechanical watches that are more stylish.
> 
> I think Rolex would argue that their technology is more from the 1920's and Hardwood's automatic watch movements. But I get your point, old technology compared to quartz. But isn't quartz 50 year old tech?
> 
> I agree that quartz watches don't fare well in the mens dress watch category. Gotta say I'm not all that interested in one. But in the sports watch category they get a lotta love. Tag Heuer can sell a pretty pedestrian Rhonda quartz chronograph for about the same as a Chronomaster, Breitling sells that B55 for more than the Citizen LE 0100s.
> 
> I agree if you include Campanola, Citizen sells some beautiful and pricey quartz watches, but they are not even close to the prices AP, VC, Patek, and even Breitling charge. Their more in the range of Cartier and Tag. Pricey but definately not the priciest.


I'm saying citizen is not just a hundred dollar watch brand. They are moving up market in the west, just doing it different.

Citizen owns frederique constant, which owns ateliers de Monaco. Citizen also owns Arnold and sons as well as the piece de resistance, the movement maker la-joux perret. So you can say they are a mini swatch. They have hundred thousand dollar watches in their portfolio.


----------



## Mr.Jones82

dicioccio said:


> No one says anything about the quartz from Breitling or Omega... so why so many about this 0100 ?


Yeah they do, and if they're not saying it with their words, they are with their wallets. Look at the resale on an Omega AT or SMP...you are lucky to get half back. Quartz snobbery doesn't discriminate between Swiss and Japanese for the most part(Swiss fanboys tend to desperately cling to their "superior" automatic movements, not so much quartz) and either way you're always going to get the, "Well, if I'm going to pay that much for a quartz, then I might as well get a (fill in the blank)." If anything, in the lower to mid luxury quartz market, I would say people are more willing to buy Japanese, GS in particular. "Zaratsu" polishing has been marketed so well that people will overlook what is "just a quartz", or for those already into HAQ, it provides a finishing touch to justify the seemingly "high" price. 
But yeah, outside of Japan you aren't going to find a lot of people willing to drop big dollars on a Citizen HAQ in this price range and it's rather pedestrian design (in my opinion) doesn't help matters. Now, the Washi dial Chronomaster on the other hand, that thing is beautiful, but I'm digressing. GS has a pretty rabid fan base, so they can charge those prices with little uproar or questioning, even if some might consider the 9f inferior (although I think it is best to just view them as 2 completely different movements). Citizen on the other hand doesn't really have diehards willing to fork out that kind of money, so it is a harder sell.


----------



## dicioccio

At this point, I am willing to find a beautiful donor Swiss watch and put inside a HAQ... Other than some nice attempt with Omega SMP, I haven't seen anything...


----------



## ronalddheld

Posts seem to have drifted off.


----------



## wbird

dicioccio said:


> Hello wbird,
> I got your point but from what you wrote it is still not yet clear to me why the 0100 doesn't have the same "dignity" to be sold for similar prices than other brands. In other words, a lot of posts here (from everybody) say "great watch but too much pricey to me": now there are a lot of ordinary or boring watches sold for a lot more and no one complaints about that. No one says anything about the quartz from Breitling or Omega... so why so many about this 0100 ?


Well, its not about dignity as much as brand status. An established luxury brand name can enable you to charge a higher price. In order to achieve that brand status Breitling and Omega don't make or sell anything below 2k. They target their marketing to an affluent consumer and emphasize a long and rich history of quality and status. They place their product in fine boutiques and expensive jewelry stores.

Clearly the Citizen brand does none of the above with their HAQ offerings, and are not established as a luxury brand, so expectations from the market are for lower prices.

For some on this forum I think their watch budget tops out around 2 or 3k, and therefore the 0100 is just simply out of their range. For others we simply aren't into style.

Honestly it seems to me Citizen runs their HAQ line like a micro watch company as opposed to large watch company.


----------



## wbird

RPF said:


> I'm saying citizen is not just a hundred dollar watch brand. They are moving up market in the west, just doing it different.
> 
> Citizen owns frederique constant, which owns ateliers de Monaco. Citizen also owns Arnold and sons as well as the piece de resistance, the movement maker la-joux perret. So you can say they are a mini swatch. They have hundred thousand dollar watches in their portfolio.


All true, but there is a rule in sales and marketing for mature products is that you market like your successful competition. For example, if they advertise on billboards do the same, if they don't do radio ads don't. Place your product where the competition sells theirs. The thinking is they have already tried those options and know what works and what doesn't.

Citizen follows these rules on everything but their HAQ products.

Swatch isn't making 6 or 8k Tissot's and Certina's. Arnold and Son isn't selling inexpensive watches. Citizen Watch Group could have put this movement in a Campanola and been in line at least from a brand status approach.

Just speculating, but I can't understand why Citizen hasn't placed these watches in Macy's. Macy's sells a bunch of Swiss brands above 3k in my area. Granted having a 6k Citizen next to a 200$ Citizen presents a problem that could be solved by using the Campanola brand.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> All true, but there is a rule in sales and marketing for mature products is that you market like your successful competition. For example, if they advertise on billboards do the same, if they don't do radio ads don't. Place your product where the competition sells theirs. The thinking is they have already tried those options and know what works and what doesn't.
> 
> Citizen follows these rules on everything but their HAQ products.
> 
> Swatch isn't making 6 or 8k Tissot's and Certina's. Arnold and Son isn't selling inexpensive watches. Citizen Watch Group could have put this movement in a Campanola and been in line at least from a brand status approach.
> 
> Just speculating, but I can't understand why Citizen hasn't placed these watches in Macy's. Macy's sells a bunch of Swiss brands above 3k in my area. Granted having a 6k Citizen next to a 200$ Citizen presents a problem that could be solved by using the Campanola brand.


The Chronomasters and the new 0100 are part of "The Citizen" lineup. This is an exclusive JDM line that has seen limited availability in the west in recent years. The models may be unveiled at Basel, but they have served as markers of technical prowess rather than marketing efforts. The primary reason why Citizen does not offer their high-end products overseas is they cannot replicate the customer experience, which in Japan means extended warranty, knowledgeable sales and watch spas that return your watch like new, an experience not unlike Rolex in many cities. Citizen can only offer this in Japan, with their extensive networks and brand recognition. However, we have seen Citizen offer their best wares to the west in trickles in the last few years. I hope they are successful because networks take a long time to build.

I tend to agree with your branding take. But that is a cultural divide not easily breached. The Japanese are very proud of their family name. If Seiko or Citizen is on the dial, you can be proud of the $75 Seiko 5, because it is a really bang-for-buck $75 watch with outrageous quality. If it is a $4000 "The Citizen", you can be proud of the watch too, because it is a really bang-for-buck $4000 watch with outrageous quality. They are both 100-year-old names in the business, and when the Japanese implicitly trust a brand, they have confidence will deliver commensurate satisfaction at the price point they are shopping at. In a sense, the Seiko 5 does not devalue a Grand Seiko, but its existence gives the confidence the GS is a bargain $x,000 model, because the company gives equal pride to "Seiko" on the dial.

It's weird and probably nonsensical to a Westerner, but you have to live like a Japanese to understand the organization of Japanese society, which is markedly different.


----------



## wbird

RPF said:


> The Chronomasters and the new 0100 are part of "The Citizen" lineup. This is an exclusive JDM line that has seen limited availability in the west in recent years. The models may be unveiled at Basel, but they have served as markers of technical prowess rather than marketing efforts. The primary reason why Citizen does not offer their high-end products overseas is they cannot replicate the customer experience, which in Japan means extended warranty, knowledgeable sales and watch spas that return your watch like new, an experience not unlike Rolex in many cities. Citizen can only offer this in Japan, with their extensive networks and brand recognition. However, we have seen Citizen offer their best wares to the west in trickles in the last few years. I hope they are successful because networks take a long time to build.
> 
> I tend to agree with your branding take. But that is a cultural divide not easily breached. The Japanese are very proud of their family name. If Seiko or Citizen is on the dial, you can be proud of the $75 Seiko 5, because it is a really bang-for-buck $75 watch with outrageous quality. If it is a $4000 "The Citizen", you can be proud of the watch too, because it is a really bang-for-buck $4000 watch with outrageous quality. They are both 100-year-old names in the business, and when the Japanese implicitly trust a brand, they have confidence will deliver commensurate satisfaction at the price point they are shopping at. In a sense, the Seiko 5 does not devalue a Grand Seiko, but its existence gives the confidence the GS is a bargain $x,000 model, because the company gives equal pride to "Seiko" on the dial.
> 
> It's weird and probably nonsensical to a Westerner, but you have to live like a Japanese to understand the organization of Japanese society, which is markedly different.


Let me start by saying I lived in Tokyo for business off and on over a 3 year period. Still travel there occasionaly. Perhaps it doesn't represent the Japan you know and have seen, but I did wander around the country a little when I had some down time.

First prior to them opening the Citizen boutique, the easiest place to look at a Chronomaster, was at Bic Camera, still is and they still sell them there. Bic Camera is sort of like a big Bestbuy and they have a bunch of locations. Check them out on the web. I could buy a toilet seat(granted it is a pretty advanced electronic one), Japanese whiskey, and a Chronomaster. The watches are in the basement level across from the selfie sticks. The young person showing me them was always polite, but they could have been selling vacuem cleaners the day before. Not the boutique environment and knowledgeble staff you describe. After 30 days if I had an issue you send it to Citizen, you don't bring it back to the store, similar to most any watch.

By the way if you do buy one at Bic, you get points and they add up and you could use them if you want to buy that Naomi Osaka watch from Citizen for your significant other, or some Saki, you're call. Way better than buying from the boutique in Ginza.

Citizen already has a huge dealer network that includes Zales, Kay, Macy's, and a gazzilion small Jewelers across the country. All they have to do is release the HAQ line.

As far as cultural divide and name pride it seems to apply in this case only to Citizen. Grand Seiko no longer behaves like Citizen. GS is now an autonomous brand, removed Seiko from the 12 o'clock position on the dial, to get seperation from being associted with the affordable watches. They are now simply Grand Seiko, and sell in over 20 locations in the US in as far flung locations as South Dakota.

Let me clear I haven't a clue why Citizen behaves differently than every other Japanese luxury brand like Mikimoto, Shiseido, every car manufacturer, and now GS but I'm pretty certain its not a cultural thing. The world is a smaller place, when I do business, watch TV, go out to eat, or hit a sports bar in Tokyo, its not much different than dealing with or being in any cosmopolitan city in the world.

Again just my opinion, but I'm concerned that if they don't change their business practices the 0100 line will eventually just be discontinued. Hard to believe that a small aging domestic market coupled with limited internet sales can sustain a luxury watch. Granted this probably doesn't represent a great deal of revenue, but this forum would loose an interesting piece of technology.


----------



## ronalddheld

What are their HAQ sales figures versus all their other watches, worldwide.


----------



## wbird

ronalddheld said:


> What are their HAQ sales figures versus all their other watches, worldwide.


Tough question, Citizen doesn't break out their financials to that detail. But in 2017 total sales for Citizen were around 1.5B, if they sold 1000 cal0100s at 5k each that would represent about 3% of total sales. Not much in sales.

But for all I know the margins might be high and the net earnings might be significant.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Tough question, Citizen doesn't break out their financials to that detail. But in 2017 total sales for Citizen were around 1.5B, if they sold 1000 cal0100s at 5k each that would represent about 3% of total sales. Not much in sales.
> 
> But for all I know the margins might be high and the net earnings might be significant.


5m of 1.5b is 0.3%.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Let me start by saying I lived in Tokyo for business off and on over a 3 year period. Still travel there occasionaly. Perhaps it doesn't represent the Japan you know and have seen, but I did wander around the country a little when I had some down time.
> 
> First prior to them opening the Citizen boutique, the easiest place to look at a Chronomaster, was at Bic Camera, still is and they still sell them there. Bic Camera is sort of like a big Bestbuy and they have a bunch of locations. Check them out on the web. I could buy a toilet seat(granted it is a pretty advanced electronic one), Japanese whiskey, and a Chronomaster. The watches are in the basement level across from the selfie sticks. The young person showing me them was always polite, but they could have been selling vacuem cleaners the day before. Not the boutique environment and knowledgeble staff you describe. After 30 days if I had an issue you send it to Citizen, you don't bring it back to the store, similar to most any watch.
> 
> By the way if you do buy one at Bic, you get points and they add up and you could use them if you want to buy that Naomi Osaka watch from Citizen for your significant other, or some Saki, you're call. Way better than buying from the boutique in Ginza.
> 
> Citizen already has a huge dealer network that includes Zales, Kay, Macy's, and a gazzilion small Jewelers across the country. All they have to do is release the HAQ line.
> 
> As far as cultural divide and name pride it seems to apply in this case only to Citizen. Grand Seiko no longer behaves like Citizen. GS is now an autonomous brand, removed Seiko from the 12 o'clock position on the dial, to get seperation from being associted with the affordable watches. They are now simply Grand Seiko, and sell in over 20 locations in the US in as far flung locations as South Dakota.
> 
> Let me clear I haven't a clue why Citizen behaves differently than every other Japanese luxury brand like Mikimoto, Shiseido, every car manufacturer, and now GS but I'm pretty certain its not a cultural thing. The world is a smaller place, when I do business, watch TV, go out to eat, or hit a sports bar in Tokyo, its not much different than dealing with or being in any cosmopolitan city in the world.
> 
> Again just my opinion, but I'm concerned that if they don't change their business practices the 0100 line will eventually just be discontinued. Hard to believe that a small aging domestic market coupled with limited internet sales can sustain a luxury watch. Granted this probably doesn't represent a great deal of revenue, but this forum would loose an interesting piece of technology.


Bic also sells Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other Swiss brands. Or did you miss them visiting Bic or Yodobashi? You can find even Patek on Jomashop or Ashley's today, covered by their own warranty.

What I mean is Citizen also has a presence in high-end watch or jewelry stores across Japan, much like how Omega and Rolex have networks in many countries. And you can easily send in these Citizens, which have different servicing requirement. You can even arrange for the watch to be picked up by courier.

Citizen's sales networks in other countries are for their lower-price wares, under $1k. They don't sell their best watches in the West. For example, the Attesa and Exceed lines. These have different support and sales networks. The difference is narrower today compared to just 10 years ago, but there is still a huge difference between two watches sharing the same movement, one JDM, the other International.

GS only recently took the step of becoming a separate entity, and the reason is they are entering the Western market. Citizen is pursuing a different branding strategy with their acquisition of Swiss brands. I don't know where Citizen's Eco-drive line will go, because the Smart Watch will eventually improve to a point that makes all gadget watches redundant. What they need to work on is battery endurance, and perhaps robustness.

I suspect the mid-priced ($300-1500) quartz will be cannibalized, and only the higher-priced models will be profitable for Citizen, going forward. I don't think the 0100 is going anywhere. Japan alone is 125 million, and China has 400-500 million middle class who can afford houses and cars for the first time. Citizen may not be luxurious, but certainly prestigious for many of these consumers.


----------



## wbird

RPF said:


> Bic also sells Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other Swiss brands. Or did you miss them visiting Bic or Yodobashi? You can find even Patek on Jomashop or Ashley's today, covered by their own warranty.
> 
> What I mean is Citizen also has a presence in high-end watch or jewelry stores across Japan, much like how Omega and Rolex have networks in many countries. And you can easily send in these Citizens, which have different servicing requirement. You can even arrange for the watch to be picked up by courier.
> 
> Citizen's sales networks in other countries are for their lower-price wares, under $1k. They don't sell their best watches in the West. For example, the Attesa and Exceed lines. These have different support and sales networks. The difference is narrower today compared to just 10 years ago, but there is still a huge difference between two watches sharing the same movement, one JDM, the other International.
> 
> GS only recently took the step of becoming a separate entity, and the reason is they are entering the Western market. Citizen is pursuing a different branding strategy with their acquisition of Swiss brands. I don't know where Citizen's Eco-drive line will go, because the Smart Watch will eventually improve to a point that makes all gadget watches redundant. What they need to work on is battery endurance, and perhaps robustness.
> 
> I suspect the mid-priced ($300-1500) quartz will be cannibalized, and only the higher-priced models will be profitable for Citizen, going forward. I don't think the 0100 is going anywhere. Japan alone is 125 million, and China has 400-500 million middle class who can afford houses and cars for the first time. Citizen may not be luxurious, but certainly prestigious for many of these consumers.


Never saw a Rolex or Breitling in the store. Lots of the Swatch brands including Omega, and other Swiss brands like Tag Heuer. But hey they have Rolex, Breitling, and Omega at my Costco so maybe I just shop at the wrong Bic.

My point was that you said that Citizen kind of resticts where they place the Chronomaster to knowledgeble staff and such, just saying Bic ain't that place. But it is one of the few places you can put a Grand Seiko and a Chronomaster side by side.

Just me I find the Exceed and Attesa to be some of the most over priced watches for what they are. Their nice RX and RC watches and have some nice designs but, right now I can pick up the very similar designs from the more expensive Sat Wave line at Macy's for under 500$. If they sell in their domestic market great, keep them there, can't see how they can compete and sell in the US market.

I agree with you that Apple has to be hurting them in 300-500 range, and if their going to make a stand in the luxury market, they have the products go for it. Place the Campanola brand, the Eco Drive One, The Citizen, any one of the many mechanicals that they target to Hong Kong market, and of course the cal 0100 into your existing dealer network. Heck just target NY, LA, Chicago, Las Vegas, Houston, and Miami. Maybe they have to beef up support in California, but they don't have to start from scratch.

But as shown when you corrected my math, they can't be selling bucket loads of their high end watches now.

Now there is one caveat, maybe they aren't looking to expand sales of those lines because the margins are bad. I don't know.

I have to figure out if my wife will like a Sat Wave sized to me, with some diamond studs I get cheap with the purchase for mothers day.


----------



## RPF

wbird said:


> Never saw a Rolex or Breitling in the store. Lots of the Swatch brands including Omega, and other Swiss brands like Tag Heuer. But hey they have Rolex, Breitling, and Omega at my Costco so maybe I just shop at the wrong Bic.
> 
> My point was that you said that Citizen kind of resticts where they place the Chronomaster to knowledgeble staff and such, just saying Bic ain't that place. But it is one of the few places you can put a Grand Seiko and a Chronomaster side by side.
> 
> Just me I find the Exceed and Attesa to be some of the most over priced watches for what they are. Their nice RX and RC watches and have some nice designs but, right now I can pick up the very similar designs from the more expensive Sat Wave line at Macy's for under 500$. If they sell in their domestic market great, keep them there, can't see how they can compete and sell in the US market.
> 
> I agree with you that Apple has to be hurting them in 300-500 range, and if their going to make a stand in the luxury market, they have the products go for it. Place the Campanola brand, the Eco Drive One, The Citizen, any one of the many mechanicals that they target to Hong Kong market, and of course the cal 0100 into your existing dealer network. Heck just target NY, LA, Chicago, Las Vegas, Houston, and Miami. Maybe they have to beef up support in California, but they don't have to start from scratch.
> 
> But as shown when you corrected my math, they can't be selling bucket loads of their high end watches now.
> 
> Now there is one caveat, maybe they aren't looking to expand sales of those lines because the margins are bad. I don't know.
> 
> I have to figure out if my wife will like a Sat Wave sized to me, with some diamond studs I get cheap with the purchase for mothers day.


I meant to say chronomasters are available in proper watch shops with the service you can expect when shopping for a nice watch, just like a swiss product. In Japan. They are also available at the discounters and gray market but not exclusively so.

I dont think citizen is focusing on the west or the American market. Not like grand seiko. Quartz cannot compete, no matter how good they are. Not even campanola which I'm sorry to report has been downsized in terms of models. Citizen's future is Asian.

As for exceed and attesa I think you do not appreciate the cases they come in. Titan and hardened to a degree better than sinn or damasio for their duratect alpha. Whilst maintaining the finishing. Very impressive casework. There is a reason why the steel versions cost so much less and they are sold outside Japan. Customers will go so much for a citizen?

Which is why I say citizen will not enter the upmarket western market in a big way. They dont even have a grand citizen line that can be easily distinguished. Campanola failed to penetrate because it was quartz, I believe.


----------



## Sakaro

What do you think? How big are the chances that Citizen will use the 0100S movement in their Chronomaster line in the next 5 years? Is the price of the limited editions due to the inherent cost of production and manufacturing the accurate quartz crystals and precision parts or is this a marketing stunt and we will see the movement in many of their watches down the line?


----------



## Gerald_D

wbird said:


> Tough question, Citizen doesn't break out their financials to that detail. But in 2017 total sales for Citizen were around 1.5B, if they sold 1000 cal0100s at 5k each that would represent about 3% of total sales. Not much in sales.
> 
> But for all I know the margins might be high and the net earnings might be significant.


But they won't sell 1000. Because they are only making 800. And your $5k pricing comment is of course wrong (average selling price of the 800 is $8575), and yes - as has already been pointed out - your calculation of the % share of their overall turnover is a little out.

And Macy's have close to 600 stores in the US, which might go some way to explaining why you probably won't find the 0100's in your local store.


----------



## gangrel

Gerald_D said:


> And Macy's have close to 600 stores in the US, which might go some way to explaining why you probably won't find the 0100's in your local store.


This touches on what I've heard why Citizen doesn't much into the US market with the higher-end pieces. Cost of entry is too high. High end department store? Not enough sales volume, I suspect, because there's too many stores. Brand boutiques? Expensive as sin to operate a bunch of em.

I got my Eco Drive One from a Citizen AD in Pennsylvania, IIRC. Certainly US, and not the Manhattan boutique. And they were ordering from the Citizen US distributor. So these DO come into the country; it's just that we have to do the digging to find out about them. There were, IIRC, something like 5 allocated to the US, in all variants of my 2nd year model, when they were released. That's all. Sure, more came, but not many, and you still have to dig to find them.

I actually don't expect that any of the first batch of 0100's will be available. From what I've heard here, they're gonna sell out, or at best have only a very few available. So we probably won't hear about em at all, unless someone gets lucky. So this probably won't become relevant until next year. This is, of course, assuming the price is one folks can manage.


----------



## wbird

Gerald_D said:


> But they won't sell 1000. Because they are only making 800. And your $5k pricing comment is of course wrong (average selling price of the 800 is $8575), and yes - as has already been pointed out - your calculation of the % share of their overall turnover is a little out.
> 
> And Macy's have close to 600 stores in the US, which might go some way to explaining why you probably won't find the 0100's in your local store.


Well you're right, yep I was off by a factor of 10 when I was spit balling my numbers. I was just trying to show how insignificant the gross sales of the cal 0100s is to the Citizen watch groups overall buisiness. I wasn't going get the average sale price, the 2018 earnings, multiply 800 times 8575, assume this is additional sales, add that to the gross sales, than do the calculation. My bad.

It's still going to be less than a percent right?

Yes Macy's has 600 stores, but they can follow the model that Swatch Group and LVMH already established. In my region Swatch sells Longines and higher end watches in their flag ship stores, LVMH places certain brands and models in the store and pretty much does the same thing. In most stores you won't see the more expensive models. In the NYC, LA, Houston, and Miami, Macy's on the other hand they carry the relatively high end pieces. Heck even in an average Macy's most of the Tags go for more than a Chronomaster.

In addition, like Swatch, Citizen has a huge network of jewelers. Swatch doesn't place Omega and above brands in every store, and Citizen could pick and choose and do the same.

As far as cost of entry, and seeing them at my local store. I can buy a 6000$ eco drive one, right off their US website. A 2 or 3k Chronomaster is a bridge too far? I can visit a few of the stores in Manhatten and LA and play with a 15k, and in some a 20k Grand Seiko. With Citizen in the US, the most expensive model in the most stores will be one GPS models, and those were priced at Chronomaster like numbers.

As I said, I really don't understand why Citizen operates the way they do.


----------



## ronalddheld

Just saw this: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/c...hville&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=watchville


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> Just saw this: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/c...hville&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=watchville


"..._The Mega-Quartz was not entirely a success - keeping the crystal, cut to what's known as an AT shape (a sort of lozenge) vibrating at such a high frequency was a major drain on the battery, which only lasted six months or so..._...."

Well, rather 12 months or so (Cal.8650) and from 1979 it was 24 months or so (Cal.7370)!

"..._Higher frequency quartz watches have trickled out in increasing numbers in recent years, which include the 262KHz "Precisionist" movements from Bulova, and the Longines VHP watches_..."

In case of the dual-quartz VHP the 262kHz crystal did not have timekeeping function but were used as a thermometer. The timekeeping crystal has always had a frequency of 32kHz in case of any Longines VHP watch!

Apart from those nice close-up pictures of the Cal.0100s the article does not contain any new info for us here in the HAQ forum.


----------



## ronalddheld

I thought I would post it anyway for the images and video.


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Just saw this: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/c...hville&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=watchville


In the lede video of your link, the seconds hand was demonstrated to be exquisitely aligned all around the dial. The minutes hand, on the other hand:










This image is from 02:52 in the video and shows the minutes hand horribly misaligned. While the seconds hand is clearly at the 9 second mark, the minute hand is clearly much closer to the 30 second area - midway between minute markers. Horribly misaligned.

That would drive me crazy!

What happened to the self analysis of the hand positions for all 3 hands?

How is it even possible to have the minute hand so badly misaligned?

Looks like a very serious ***** in the Cal. 0100 armor to me.

HTH


----------



## Hans Moleman

gaijin said:


> In the lede video of your link ...
> 
> HTH


Well spotted.

And this "the higher the frequency, the better the accuracy" myth is disappointing.

If that were true then a pendulum clock would be utter rubbish. There are some that would give an atom clock a run for its money.


----------



## ronalddheld

How many times does the minute hand move every minute?


----------



## Hans Moleman

ronalddheld said:


> How many times does the minute hand move every minute?


Looks like it is geared to the seconds hand.
At least to me, by looking at the video around 43 seconds in.


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> How many times does the minute hand move every minute?


Watch the video you linked from 00:08 - 00:12 and you can clearly see the minute hand move every time the seconds hand moves.

The minute hand moves 60 times every minute.

HTH


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

gaijin said:


> In the lede video of your link, the seconds hand was demonstrated to be exquisitely aligned all around the dial. The minutes hand, on the other hand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image is from 02:52 in the video and shows the minutes hand horribly misaligned. While the seconds hand is clearly at the 9 second mark, the minute hand is clearly much closer to the 30 second area - midway between minute markers. Horribly misaligned.
> 
> That would drive me crazy!
> 
> What happened to the self analysis of the hand positions for all 3 hands?
> 
> How is it even possible to have the minute hand so badly misaligned?
> 
> Looks like a very serious ***** in the Cal. 0100 armor to me.
> 
> HTH


I'd attribute any misalignment of the minute v. seconds hands to user error from the last person to set the watch (probably someone from the photography/videography team) rather than any Citizen manufacturing defect.


----------



## gaijin

stolen-gmt-master said:


> I'd attribute any misalignment of the minute v. seconds hands to user error from the last person to set the watch (probably someone from the photography/videography team) rather than any Citizen manufacturing defect.


That's interesting.

If it is possible to set the minutes hand in a misaligned manner, then when the Calibre 0100 "checks the position of all 3 hands to make sure they are all hitting their marks" does it simply assure it is where it was set - and not where it should have been set?

I had assumed the setting procedure would involve a hacking of the seconds hand and some rotation of the crown to position the minute and hour hands in steps on minute and hour marks - not free-wheeling. Has anyone seen the setting procedure for this movement?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

gaijin said:


> That's interesting.
> 
> If it is possible to set the minutes hand in a misaligned manner, then when the Calibre 0100 "checks the position of all 3 hands to make sure they are all hitting their marks" does it simply assure it is where it was set - and not where it should have been set?
> 
> I had assumed the setting procedure would involve a hacking of the seconds hand and some rotation of the crown to position the minute and hour hands in steps on minute and hour marks - not free-wheeling. Has anyone seen the setting procedure for this movement?


I'm sure it sets just like any other watch, mechanical or quartz, in that the hour and minute hands are slaved together but do "free-wheel" between the hour & minute marks regardless of the seconds hands' position. I would guess that even if the watch was originally hacked w/the seconds at the 00:00 position & the hour and minute hands set to the customary 10:10 "dial shot" position, for example, the person handling it could easily have accidentally moved the minute hand by rotating the crown while pushing it back in. Happens to me all the time, especially on dress watches w/small crowns.

Once misaligned, just because the watch has an automatic correction feature doesn't mean that it kicks in fast enough to correct a gross misalignment during the time it took to shoot the video.

Again, much more likely to be an oversight by the Hodinkee photo/video team than a defect in the watch.


----------



## casey70

Hans Moleman said:


> Well spotted.
> 
> And this "the higher the frequency, the better the accuracy" myth is disappointing.
> 
> If that were true then a pendulum clock would be utter rubbish. There are some that would give an atom clock a run for its money.


In addition, there's the difference between precision and accuracy. This Caliber may be consistently precise to within a sec per year, but how is it set? By hand? I'd wager my Casio Lineage that auto syncs daily to the atomic clock is more accurate. Try setting it by hand/eye to within a millisecond, or even 1/100th. For the price they should have included atomic sync.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

casey70 said:


> In addition, there's the difference between precision and accuracy. This Caliber may be consistently precise to within a sec per year, but how is it set? By hand? I'd wager my Casio Lineage that auto syncs daily to the atomic clock is more accurate. Try setting it by hand/eye to within a millisecond, or even 1/100th. For the price they should have included atomic sync.


Perhaps, though accuracy & precision are recognized as synonyms in many dictionaries & are certainly often used as such in common usage. Moreover, even if your definitions are correct, my understanding is that the whole point of these watches (& this forum) is their autonomous "precision", not how they're set (perhaps the forum should be renamed High Precision Quartz watches?).


----------



## gaijin

stolen-gmt-master said:


> I'm sure it sets just like any other watch, mechanical or quartz, in that the hour and minute hands are slaved together but do "free-wheel" between the hour & minute marks regardless of the seconds hands' position.


That's not the case with the Longines Conquest VHP. On that watch, time is set in steps "minute by minute or hour by hour." There is no "free=wheel" and therefore no ability to set the minute hand between minute markers when the seconds hand is at 12.

See the last page of the VHP manual for reference here: https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/detail/cs-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf

Also not the case with Ana-Digi quartz watches like my Omega X-33. Time is set digitally and then synced to the analog hands. Again, no ability to set the minute hand between minute markers when the seconds hand is at 12.

So, I take it you have not seen the manual detailing the setting procedure for the Calibre 0100 either.

HTH


----------



## ronalddheld

I assume no 0100S manual is accessable on the Citizen site?


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

gaijin said:


> That's not the case with the Longines Conquest VHP. On that watch, time is set in steps "minute by minute or hour by hour." There is no "free=wheel" and therefore no ability to set the minute hand between minute markers when the seconds hand is at 12.
> 
> See the last page of the VHP manual for reference here: https://www.longines.com/uploads/customerservice/detail/cs-use-manual/pdf/user-manual-conquest-vhp.pdf
> 
> Also not the case with Ana-Digi quartz watches like my Omega X-33. Time is set digitally and then synced to the analog hands. Again, no ability to set the minute hand between minute markers when the seconds hand is at 12.
> 
> So, I take it you have not seen the manual detailing the setting procedure for the Calibre 0100 either.
> 
> HTH


Sorry, I'm not familiar with your examples, but they seem to be unusual in that the vast majority of watches do not have jump minute/hour hands & there is no indication in the video that the 0100 has them.

No, I do not have the 0100 manual, but do own the The Citizen AQ4020-03E, which sets like most watches as I described. We'll be able to look at the PDF of the manual soon enough, I suppose.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

ronalddheld said:


> I assume no 0100S manual is accessable on the Citizen site?


Not yet, having checked both the Japanese & global sites.


----------



## casey70

stolen-gmt-master said:


> Perhaps, though accuracy & precision are recognized as synonyms in many dictionaries & are certainly often used as such in common usage. Moreover, even if your definitions are correct, my understanding is that the whole point of these watches (& this forum) is their autonomous "precision", not how they're set (perhaps the forum should be renamed High Precision Quartz watches?).


If the emphasis is on engineering and "precision" then I would argue using precise language is appropriate. Precision and accuracy have specific scientific definitions. Precision is how closely multiple measurements match each other. Accuracy is how close a measurement is to true, or relative to a standard reference. In the case of time there are a number of standards but the most accessible for watches is the atomic radio broadcast. In the ads I've seen they're touting "accuracy" to within a second per year. What they mean is precision. I get the attraction of extreme engineering, I'm just pointing out that practically speaking this watch is unlikely to be as accurate as other readily available, and much more affordable choices, which of course aren't the priorities of most collectors.


----------



## DaveM

gaijin said:


> That's not the case with the Longines Conquest VHP. On that watch, time is set in steps "minute by minute or hour by hour." There is no "free=wheel" and therefore no ability to set the minute hand between minute markers when the seconds hand is at 12.
> 
> I have my new VHP in my hand and I can set the minute hand between markers.
> I pull out the crown then turn slowly to do a time-adjust. The seconds hand goes to (approximately) 12-o-clock --- so far so good
> I can move the minutes hand in 10 second steps, and for a test set it half way between 2 markers and push the crown back in. The watch starts up with the minutes hand 30 seconds out of position.
> I have always thought this a poor design.
> But have just noticed something !
> At about 10-past the hour the minutes hand jumps forward to the correct position. I guess that this is the GPD function.
> It is only through replying to your post that I have noticed this.
> My marks for VHP hacking goes up from 2 starts to 4 stars
> But surely it would have been easy to make the initial adjustment in 1 minute instead of 10 second steps, then I could have given 6 stars
> The link :-
> https://www.glashuette-original.com...eter/1-58-01-01-01-04#video-slider-0__video-1
> Shows how I think it should be done.
> 
> The Cal 010 movement-picture only shows 1 motor-coil.
> Perhaps it is like the old Longines VHP, 1 motor and IAHH done by mechanical means.
> Separate seconds and minute motors (like the new Longines VHP) has a lot of advantages.


----------



## gaijin

casey70 said:


> If the emphasis is on engineering and "precision" then I would argue using precise language is appropriate. Precision and accuracy have specific scientific definitions. Precision is how closely multiple measurements match each other. Accuracy is how close a measurement is to true, or relative to a standard reference. In the case of time there are a number of standards but the most accessible for watches is the atomic radio broadcast. In the ads I've seen they're touting "accuracy" to within a second per year. What they mean is precision.


I get it, and the distinction you are pointing out between precision and accuracy is an important one.

Where I have a different opinion is with your interpretation of the "accuracy" specs given by manufacturers. I think "accuracy" is exactly what they mean, not "precision". For example, if a maker said their watch had a precision of 5 sec/year, I would take that to mean (in the strict engineering sense) that all measurements would be within a 5-second window - total range of measurements would be 5 seconds. This could be explained as an "accuracy" of +2.5 seconds per year. By stating an "accuracy" spec of 1 sec/year, Citizen are actually saying +1 sec/year - a range of measurements which could cover 2 seconds - at no time should the watch be more than 1 second different, + or -, from a standard. If they stated a precision of 1 sec/year, they would have to live up to an accuracy spec of +0.5 sec/year.

So, in my opinion, what they mean is accuracy, and that's why they say accuracy - it effectively doubles the range within which a watch could perform and still be within the spec.

HTH


----------



## casey70

gaijin said:


> I get it, and the distinction you are pointing out between precision and accuracy is an important one.
> 
> Where I have a different opinion is with your interpretation of the "accuracy" specs given by manufacturers. I think "accuracy" is exactly what they mean, not "precision". For example, if a maker said their watch had a precision of 5 sec/year, I would take that to mean (in the strict engineering sense) that all measurements would be within a 5-second window - total range of measurements would be 5 seconds. This could be explained as an "accuracy" of +2.5 seconds per year. By stating an "accuracy" spec of 1 sec/year, Citizen are actually saying +1 sec/year - a range of measurements which could cover 2 seconds - at no time should the watch be more than 1 second different, + or -, from a standard. If they stated a precision of 1 sec/year, they would have to live up to an accuracy spec of +0.5 sec/year.
> 
> So, in my opinion, what they mean is accuracy, and that's why they say accuracy - it effectively doubles the range within which a watch could perform and still be within the spec.
> 
> HTH


Your description is not correct in terms of the technical definitions of "precision" and "accuracy". You are only describing precision and just stating the variance in two different ways. In this case precision means the amount of variance in measuring 24 hours x 365 days, which they specify as +- 1 second. And when it ticks off 1 year again it would be off in total time by no more than 1 second. Precision only specifies the variance between multiple measurements of the same thing, weight, volume, time, or whatever is being measured. Accuracy on the other hand is how close the measurement is to the truth, in reference to some agreed upon standard. So, if you incorrectly set this watch 5 minutes off from the true time at the beginning of the year it's accuracy would be off by 5 minutes the entire year, +- 1 second. The point I was making is because it is hand set it can only be as accurate as the user is able to set it to match the true time. There is no specification for that, since a user can miss the true time by an arbitrary amount. Could be .1 sec, .5 sec, 1 sec, 1 minute or whatever. In addition to that in places where daylight saving time is used it would need to be reset twice a year, so the potential for accuracy errors is increased. With no mechanism for syncing it to true time it's up to the user to determine the accuracy. Since some watches auto sync to atomic time daily their accuracy would be much better, and in fact would often be more precise than this Citizen which could vary by as much 1 second by the end of the year. I realize I'm nitpicking, but they are the ones making the claim of extraordinary "accuracy" for a very expensive watch, and if that's the key selling point it's good to have some perspective on what it actually means.


----------



## heb

gaijin said:


> In the lede video of your link, the seconds hand was demonstrated to be exquisitely aligned all around the dial. The minutes hand, on the other hand:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image is from 02:52 in the video and shows the minutes hand horribly misaligned. While the seconds hand is clearly at the 9 second mark, the minute hand is clearly much closer to the 30 second area - midway between minute markers. Horribly misaligned.
> 
> That would drive me crazy!
> 
> What happened to the self analysis of the hand positions for all 3 hands?
> 
> How is it even possible to have the minute hand so badly misaligned?
> 
> Looks like a very serious ***** in the Cal. 0100 armor to me.
> 
> HTH


It may be that the user carelessly misaligned the hand upon initial hack. I see that a lot in videos, pictures, etc.


----------



## wbird

casey70 said:


> Your description is not correct in terms of the technical definitions of "precision" and "accuracy". You are only describing precision and just stating the variance in two different ways. In this case precision means the amount of variance in measuring 24 hours x 365 days, which they specify as +- 1 second. And when it ticks off 1 year again it would be off in total time by no more than 1 second. Precision only specifies the variance between multiple measurements of the same thing, weight, volume, time, or whatever is being measured. Accuracy on the other hand is how close the measurement is to the truth, in reference to some agreed upon standard. So, if you incorrectly set this watch 5 minutes off from the true time at the beginning of the year it's accuracy would be off by 5 minutes the entire year, +- 1 second. The point I was making is because it is hand set it can only be as accurate as the user is able to set it to match the true time. There is no specification for that, since a user can miss the true time by an arbitrary amount. Could be .1 sec, .5 sec, 1 sec, 1 minute or whatever. In addition to that in places where daylight saving time is used it would need to be reset twice a year, so the potential for accuracy errors is increased. With no mechanism for syncing it to true time it's up to the user to determine the accuracy. Since some watches auto sync to atomic time daily their accuracy would be much better, and in fact would often be more precise than this Citizen which could vary by as much 1 second by the end of the year. I realize I'm nitpicking, but they are the ones making the claim of extraordinary "accuracy" for a very expensive watch, and if that's the key selling point it's good to have some perspective on what it actually means.


Gotta agree with you, and this has been discussed many times before here, usually with no consensus. But if you want a clean definition of accuracy look how Apple states it for their watch; the Apple Watch will keep time "within 50 milliseconds of the definitive global time standard... with the same precision of GPS satellites." It does this using dedicated time servers. Nothing nebulous about that specification.

Yes 1 s/yr is a measure of precision because it is not versus a time standard for exact time, its the variance over the course of a year. Like I said before, they could have done everyone a favor and set it in the factory with great accuracy, and let the user use the IAHH to set it to what ever their local time is.


----------



## casey70

wbird said:


> Gotta agree with you, and this has been discussed many times before here, usually with no consensus. But if you want a clean definition of accuracy look how Apple states it for their watch; the Apple Watch will keep time "within 50 milliseconds of the definitive global time standard... with the same precision of GPS satellites." It does this using dedicated time servers. Nothing nebulous about that specification.
> 
> Yes 1 s/yr is a measure of precision because it is not versus a time standard for exact time, its the variance over the course of a year. Like I said before, they could have done everyone a favor and set it in the factory with great accuracy, and let the user use the IAHH to set it to what ever their local time is.


Yes, that's it. I wish Android did the same on their phones and thus smartwatches. My phone's network sync is about 18 sec off. As far as Citizen setting it at the factory that would be one solution, although time zones and DST would come in to play requiring user intervention. The improved precision is an interesting engineering feat, but they aren't really interested in accuracy, and I assume they know their market.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

casey70 said:


> If the emphasis is on engineering and "precision" then I would argue using precise language is appropriate. Precision and accuracy have specific scientific definitions. Precision is how closely multiple measurements match each other. Accuracy is how close a measurement is to true, or relative to a standard reference. In the case of time there are a number of standards but the most accessible for watches is the atomic radio broadcast. In the ads I've seen they're touting "accuracy" to within a second per year. What they mean is precision. I get the attraction of extreme engineering, I'm just pointing out that practically speaking this watch is unlikely to be as accurate as other readily available, and much more affordable choices, which of course aren't the priorities of most collectors.


I understand the distinction, but your argument appears to go beyond this particular Citizen movement & apply to this entire (sub)forum, which I understand is dedicated to high precision (using your terminology) quartz watches that are _not_ corrected via radio signals, etc. (see, e.g., https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/%2A%2A%2Awhat-haq-watch-you-sporting-today-%2A%2A%2A-3742882-47.html#post48325677 ).


----------



## casey70

stolen-gmt-master said:


> I understand the distinction, but your argument appears to go beyond this particular Citizen movement & apply to this entire (sub)forum, which I understand is dedicated to high precision (using your terminology) quartz watches that are _not_ corrected via radio signals, etc. (see, e.g., https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/%2A%2A%2Awhat-haq-watch-you-sporting-today-%2A%2A%2A-3742882-47.html#post48325677 ).


True. But it seems to me most pointed in the context of this watch since they're making a big deal, rightfully perhaps, about it's engineering. They've made a big step in minimizing drift and increasing precision, but it's not a breakthrough in accuracy, which I admit I consider the first purpose of a watch. I'm new here so apologize if I added a distraction. Thanks for the link.


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

casey70 said:


> True. But it seems to me most pointed in the context of this watch since they're making a big deal, rightfully perhaps, about it's engineering. They've made a big step in minimizing drift and increasing precision, but it's not a breakthrough in accuracy, which I admit I consider the first purpose of a watch. I'm new here so apologize if I added a distraction. Thanks for the link.


No worries, I'm not exactly an old-timer on this forum myself. Using your (scientific) definition of accuracy, have there been any significant breakthroughs in watches except for correction using radio/GPS signals? Everything seems to have been about minimizing drift/increasing precision (COSC standards, etc.) as setting a normal watch, no matter how precise, is always subject to human error & limited by eye-hand reaction time.


----------



## casey70

stolen-gmt-master said:


> No worries, I'm not exactly an old-timer on this forum myself. Using your (scientific) definition of accuracy, have there been any significant breakthroughs in watches except for correction using radio/GPS signals? Everything seems to have been about minimizing drift/increasing precision (COSC standards, etc.) as setting a normal watch, no matter how precise, is always subject to human error & limited by eye-hand reaction time.


No expert, but radio reception of atomic clock broadcasts, GPS and bluetooth connectivity to phones are the only ways I know of for auto syncing a watch to maintain high accuracy. For RC watches that are outside the range of the radio broadcasts there are also phone apps that can be used with headphones or through the speaker to set them. In thinking about it I'm guessing eyeball setting is good enough accuracy for the vast majority and thus increasing precision offers the most perceived benefit. I'll also speculate that with the high price and limited production Citizen primarily wanted to create something unique to make a marketing splash and for collectors, kind of like the 3mm thick solar One, but I'm a pure amateur with no broad watch industry insight. I welcome tech advancements as they often become more widespread.


----------



## PetWatch

Precision is a very big deal in regards to accuracy from a practical standpoint here. How many here have bought a watch and never set the time? Even a radio or satellite synced watch will have to be set or synced to local conditions. Anyone who cares about accuracy these days can initially, and easily set a watch to 1 second accuracy or less to the official standard time using the internet. It is the precision of this watch that allows this accuracy to be maintained over the course of a year to +- 1 sec., assuming the claim proves true.

A self regulating instrument will not be very accurate over a period of time without a high degree of precision.


----------



## casey70

PetWatch said:


> Precision is a very big deal in regards to accuracy from a practical standpoint here. How many here have bought a watch and never set the time? Even a radio or satellite synced watch will have to be set or synced to local conditions. Anyone who cares about accuracy these days can initially, and easily set a watch to 1 second accuracy or less to the official standard time using the internet. It is the precision of this watch that allows this accuracy to be maintained over the course of a year to +- 1 sec., assuming the claim proves true.
> 
> A self regulating instrument will not be very accurate over a period of time without a high degree of precision.


My Casio RC watch has a spec of +-15 sec/month if it doesn't sync to the atomic radio broadcast. I assume that's not what you consider high precision. But on a consistent basis it should be more accurate and precise than the Citizen with a spec of +-1 sec/year. That's due to it auto syncing daily very accurately to the atomic standard. The drift to be expected in 24 hours would be a maximum of .5 sec, and most of each day it would be off less than that. At least visually I can confirm that it looks to be dead on all day. Time zones are handled by a simple setting that does not impact accuracy, and DST is also auto set. If you set the Citizen once per year and are able to do so even perfectly, which isn't likely, by 6 months it would be off by .5 sec and get worse the remaining 6 months. You could set it as often as you like to compensate but the accuracy of hand setting will vary and is very unlikely to match my Casio. Other options for syncing to standard time also exist, GPS and bluetooth, for example, and relatively inexpensive watches can use that tech to maintain high accuracy. So my conclusion is the precision of the Citizen is not necessary for high accuracy, and the Citizen will typically be less accurate than some other watches that are very affordable. What we perhaps agree on is for the vast majority hand setting to within a second is good enough, and easily achievable, combined with the high precision of the Citizen it's a viable solution, albeit an expensive one for now.


----------



## ronalddheld

The working HAQ spec is <=10 s/y without resets.


----------



## PetWatch

casey70 said:


> My Casio RC watch has a spec of +-15 sec/month if it doesn't sync to the atomic radio broadcast. I assume that's not what you consider high precision. But on a consistent basis it should be more accurate and precise than the Citizen with a spec of +-1 sec/year. That's due to it auto syncing daily very accurately to the atomic standard. The drift to be expected in 24 hours would be a maximum of .5 sec, and most of each day it would be off less than that. At least visually I can confirm that it looks to be dead on all day. Time zones are handled by a simple setting that does not impact accuracy, and DST is also auto set. If you set the Citizen once per year and are able to do so even perfectly, which isn't likely, by 6 months it would be off by .5 sec and get worse the remaining 6 months. You could set it as often as you like to compensate but the accuracy of hand setting will vary and is very unlikely to match my Casio. Other options for syncing to standard time also exist, GPS and bluetooth, for example, and relatively inexpensive watches can use that tech to maintain high accuracy. So my conclusion is the precision of the Citizen is not necessary for high accuracy, and the Citizen will typically be less accurate than some other watches that are very affordable. What we perhaps agree on is for the vast majority hand setting to within a second is good enough, and easily achievable, combined with the high precision of the Citizen it's a viable solution, albeit an expensive one for now.


An auto syncing watch will definitely be much more accurate and inexpensive than most any watch available today, provided it syncs frequently and on schedule. Take as an example the +- 15sec/month daily auto radio sync watch you mentioned, .5 sec daily variation without syncing. If this watch fails to sync in three days we can expect it to be 1.5 sec off the atomic clock, in a week almost 4 sec. Why?, because of its inherent movement imprecision. It needs to be reset by way of syncing to an external source to achieve its stellar accuracy. Nothing wrong with that as I see it, but it is being reset. This Citizen's accuracy is not being reset in order to achieve +- 1 sec/year, hopefully throughout the full year. It relies entirely on a consistently precise movement to achieve this consistent level of accuracy. I know of no other way that this is possible.


----------



## PetWatch

ronalddheld said:


> The working HAQ spec is <=10 s/y without resets.


At first I thought this was the best explanation I have seen here in regards to, shall we say, the dismissal of watches that sync on this forum. Time for a rethink. Some of these new HAQ watches are increasingly coming out relying on software resets, such as the Citizen 0100 and Longine VHP. The distinction is being blurred and becoming a matter of internal vs. external accuracy reset assistance. Whether this is called error correction or not, the fact is the software is resetting the time, which is different from its absence or thermocompensation which does not reset the time.


----------



## gangrel

First: we don't dismiss RF and GPS. We talk about them reasonably often. It's a separate notion, tho. (And how much is there to say, anyway? Reception is an idiosyncratic beast, so it's hard to speak generally.) Heck, we've flat-out said: if your concern's strictly limited daily error, then go RF or GPS. It's why we recognize that HAQs are quite unlikely to be significantly extended. THAT is also why we find the Cal 0100 so intriguing.

Second: what "software reset" are you talking about, with the Cal 0100? And for that matter, thermocompensation IS a software adjustment. That's fine, when it's maintained completely within the movement and is making no reference to an external time reference. That's the cornerstone point.


----------



## casey70

PetWatch said:


> An auto syncing watch will definitely be much more accurate and inexpensive than most any watch available today, provided it syncs frequently and on schedule. Take as an example the +- 15sec/month daily auto radio sync watch you mentioned, .5 sec daily variation without syncing. If this watch fails to sync in three days we can expect it to be 1.5 sec off the atomic clock, in a week almost 4 sec. Why?, because of its inherent movement imprecision. It needs to be reset by way of syncing to an external source to achieve its stellar accuracy. Nothing wrong with that as I see it, but it is being reset. This Citizen's accuracy is not being reset in order to achieve +- 1 sec/year, hopefully throughout the full year. It relies entirely on a consistently precise movement to achieve this consistent level of accuracy. I know of no other way that this is possible.


I pretty much agree. Obviously I'm not an experienced member of this community, and not versed in the shared perspectives. I would suggest that the Citizen is also totally relying on an external source for its accuracy. It's entirely dependent on the user to periodically press the button at just the right instant to fix the time as close as possible to a reference standard. So its actual accuracy is quite arbitrary, depending on the reference the user chooses to look at, and their eye/hand timing coordination. In places with DST that's twice a year, and time zone changes in addition to that. Whether via a human interface or a direct electromagnetic link all watches require periodic resets to maintain accuracy. But I do understand people have distinctions they draw and differing priorities, all of which can be equally valid.


----------



## Eurastus

casey70 said:


> ..... In places with DST that's twice a year, and time zone changes in addition to that. ....


The 0100S is stated to have an independently adjustable hour hand which allows for time settings in full one-hour increments to be made without disturbing the timing of the minute and second hands.

I do not know of any DST changes that are not full hour differences, so twice-yearly DST changes should not be an issue.

There are indeed a handful of time zones that are either 30 or 45 minute offset from UTC, such as India, Newfoundland, and Nepal. If a 0100S watch is taken to one of those non-hour offset time zones, then yes, a reset of the base time must be made.

Unless one travels to a non-hour offset time zone, however, fully resetting all hands of a 0100S watch will not be required.


----------



## casey70

Eurastus said:


> The 0100S is stated to have an independently adjustable hour hand which allows for time settings in full one-hour increments to be made without disturbing the timing of the minute and second hands.
> 
> I do not know of any DST changes that are not full hour differences, so twice-yearly DST changes should not be an issue.
> 
> There are indeed a handful of time zones that are either 30 or 45 minute offset from UTC, such as India, Newfoundland, and Nepal. If a 0100S watch is taken to one of those non-hour offset time zones, then yes, a reset of the base time must be made.
> 
> Unless one travels to a non-hour offset time zone, however, fully resetting all hands of a 0100S watch will not be required.


Ok, I confess to not being sufficiently informed about this watch. They have narrowed the sources of inaccuracy and taken a big step in precision. A significant accomplishment. Hopefully it will become more widespread.


----------



## PetWatch

gangrel said:


> First: we don't dismiss RF and GPS. We talk about them reasonably often. It's a separate notion, tho. (And how much is there to say, anyway? Reception is an idiosyncratic beast, so it's hard to speak generally.) Heck, we've flat-out said: if your concern's strictly limited daily error, then go RF or GPS. It's why we recognize that HAQs are quite unlikely to be significantly extended. THAT is also why we find the Cal 0100 so intriguing.
> 
> Second: what "software reset" are you talking about, with the Cal 0100? And for that matter, thermocompensation IS a software adjustment. That's fine, when it's maintained completely within the movement and is making no reference to an external time reference. That's the cornerstone point.


I started a new thread to discuss some of the recent discussion here so as not to derail this thread.
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/haq-d...ion-accuracy-assist-4979511.html#post49228327


----------



## HEQAdmirer

*Re: Citizen Cal.0100 Eco-drive - 8.4MHz*

Think the 0100 Citizen movement watches will be quite expensive. Worth it??? Perhaps not to me.


----------



## gangrel

Just got email from a dealer where I'm on their list...they just opened up pre-order for the black dial 0100. First I've seen. Suggests it's still a couple months out, but also says it's closer to reality. 

But my other watch purchases...mechanicals, sorry folks, no new HAQs...mean I won't pull the trigger until next year at the earliest. Unless of course I lose my mind.


----------



## harald-hans

I ordered mine for months - delivery date is October ...


----------



## ronalddheld

No updates expected until maybe September....


----------



## tomchicago

I hope Citizen don't fumble 0100 marketing & distribution into the lost realm of limited production. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## ronalddheld

https://www.watchtime.com/wristwatc...7-19&utm_campaign=WW+7-27-19&utm_medium=email


----------



## gangrel

Saw that article, but there's nothing new there. Same 3 models from BW, same numbers. Release is just "in the fall." 

Any coverage is good, tho!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

Now officially on pre-order on the US site: https://www.citizenwatch.com/us/en/product/AQ6010-06A.html?cgid=collectors & https://www.citizenwatch.com/us/en/product/AQ6021-51E.html?cgid=collectors.


----------



## tomchicago

Cool but a double pass for me. Too expensive. Will wait for regular production models.


----------



## gangrel

Or at least a price drop. The original Eco Drive One LE came down 20-25% after a few months, IIRC.

Plus, so far all we're seeing are Citizen's prices...which of course has no discount. Got my Eco Drive One from a dealer, and got...I don't recall now, but at least 10-15% off.


----------



## ronalddheld

Can anyone read Japanese?


----------



## gangrel

https://www.citizenwatch-global.com/support/pdf/010x/e.pdf

Not quite the same but that's the English section of the full manual. Looks like you have the short summary.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

ronalddheld said:


> Can anyone read Japanese?


I cannot, but I did run it through Google translate. Given the abomination that is the pdf format, it's hard to say where in the original document some of the various phrases lie, but I'm sure we can make some inferences.



Google Translate said:


> Page 1
> 010x Simple operation guide
> • This watch is a solar power watch. Make sure that the dial is exposed to light and fully charged.
> • For details on the charging time / specifications / operations, refer to the instruction manual.
> 0100 Instruction Manual
> Japanese
> Name of each part
> Crown
> Hour hand
> second hand
> minute hand
> • The watch you purchased may differ from the illustration.
> • There are two levels for pulling out the crown.
> What is "Yearly difference ± 1 second"?
> The time accuracy of this watch is ± 1 second per year, that is, the time advance / delay in one year is less than 1 second.
> It is in. This is comparable to the time accuracy (monthly difference ± 15 seconds) of a quartz watch, which is commonly seen.
> This means that it has high time accuracy.
> Meaning of yearly difference ± 1 second
> The deviation of ± 1 second per year is not a simple accumulation of small deviations over a short period of time.
> not. For example, "The annual deviation is within ± 1 second, so the daily deviation is within ± 1/365 seconds."
> That doesn't mean that.
> The accuracy of the watch varies finely depending on changes in usage and environment. One of the fluctuations
> By correcting constantly at regular intervals, the overall deviation within one year is within one second.
> The meaning of "contains" means "annual difference ± 1 second".
> To keep time accuracy
> Has the greatest impact on the time accuracy of a quartz watch in daily life.
> Is a variation in temperature.
> In order to minimize the influence of temperature changes due to the environment and maintain time accuracy of ± 1 second per year
> In addition, this watch makes corrections corresponding to temperature changes every minute.
> However, when used under extreme temperature conditions or when there is a large fluctuation in temperature,
> It may not be corrected and the error may exceed 1 second.
> Consider the following points when using the watch.
> • Temperature changes due to watch usage and environment
> • Do not give a strong shock to the watch
> • Set the time accurately
> Regular maintenance is also recommended.
> For your comfort
> In order to maintain the high time accuracy of this watch, please keep the following points in mind.
> • Wear around 12 hours a day
> • Maintain a stable temperature environment (+ 5 ° C to + 40 ° C) as much as possible during use and storage
> • Charge the battery for a short time every day so that the charging warning function does not work.
> If you consciously shine the watch around your wrist, you can use it for 12 hours.
> It is possible to maintain the amount of charge.
> Please wear as much as possible.
> Setting the time difference
> By moving only the hour hand in units of 1 hour, you can display the time in an area with a time difference.
> The
> • If you push the crown in to position 2, the second and minute hands will also stop. Please be careful.
> 1 Push the crown in to position 1.
> The second hand does not stop.
> 2 Turn the crown to set the hour hand so that it is the local time you want to set.
> 3 Push the crown in to position 0
> Set the time
> Before setting the time
> This watch can be used for a long time as a lag or advance of the
> Hold
> Refer to the time information on the Internet and adjust the time appropriately.
> Example) Timing when setting to 00 seconds (Time adjustment procedure 3)
> 20
> '00
> '59
> '01 '02
> '58
> '57
> '56
> Yearly difference ± 1 second
> Error range
> Push the crown in to position 2 when the 1- second hand points to 0 seconds
> 2 Turn the crown to set the time
> 3 Set the crown to 0 at 00 seconds.
> The clock starts to move with a yearly difference of ± 1 second.
> If it could not be adjusted to just 00 seconds
> Since the clock operates with a shift from 00 seconds, there will be a shift of more than 1 second.
> It may be visible.
> 20
> '00
> '59
> '01 '02
> '58
> '57
> '56
> Yearly difference ± 1 second
> Error range
> Crown position
> 0 1 2


----------



## ronalddheld

I had problems finding the full manual on the translated site.


----------



## ppaulusz

According to the Google translation it has the usual Citizen HAQ-type caveats and that is normal. The applied technologies (8MHz quartz crystal and improved digital thermocompensation scheme) strongly suggest that the watch will indeed perform within 1 second/year in a real life-like environment (avoid the deep-freezer - hot water test). Citizen should be congratulated: they are the only one that combined and refined old (existing) wristwatch technologies of MHz-range quartz crystal (about 45 years old technology) and digital thermocompensation scheme (about 35 years old technology) to deliver a superb timepiece. Given the nature of limited-series I'm sure that calibration (quality control) will be spot on.


----------



## gangrel

ronalddheld said:


> I had problems finding the full manual on the translated site.


You mean citizen.jp? I found it on the global site, where you don't need to translate it.

Citizen.jp does have this:
https://citizen.jp/support/guide/html/0100/0100.html

HTML form, so translate page by page.

EDIT: the full manual is also there...but only the Japanese section.


----------



## DaveM

I think that it is a good manual .
1) It explains what they mean by 1second per year
If set correctly the indicated time will never be out by more than 1second for the next 12 months. If somebody like me finds that over 1 hour it gains 200 microseconds that does not mean that it is out of specification.
2) They explain very carefully how to set the time -- not easy to get within a fraction of a second.
For a watch this accurate I think that they should have included a hacking feature ( like new Longines VHP ). But at least the manual-writer understood the problem explained how to cope with it.
3) They do give a precise accuracy specification
QUOTE>Within 1spy *when worn* at normal operating temperatures between *5C and 40C*
OK, you can say that 'when worn' is a get-out but they do specify the (very big) temperature range.
To meet this specification with a high degree of confidence would ( ? will ) be a great technical achievemnt.


----------



## tomchicago

*Citizen 0100: Where are you?*

Has Citizen actually shipped any 0100's to customers or is this still a nonexistent timepiece for the most part?


----------



## ppaulusz

*Re: Citizen 0100: Where are you?*



tomchicago said:


> Has Citizen actually shipped any 0100's to customers or is this still a nonexistent timepiece for the most part?


I can't believe that you've started a new topic for this stupid question... There is already a well visited topic for the 0100S, we don't really need this one as is.

Just for your info if it was already shipped we would have heard of that, haven't we?!


----------



## gangrel

*Re: Citizen 0100: Where are you?*



tomchicago said:


> Has Citizen actually shipped any 0100's to customers or is this still a nonexistent timepiece for the most part?


Been thinking much the same. "Ship after Nov. 1st" is all Citizen's saying on the US site, but I was kinda figuring to see something...but nary a peep.

It could be a delay but I wonder if the first units are already allocated. If they're gonna go from the factory to the dealer to the customer as fast as credit cards can be charged and parcels shipped, we may not hear much until that phase is complete. I got the impression none of the (few remaining) regulars were interested enough to pay the asking prices this time round.

Might be amusing to fire up Chrono24 to see if any show...gotta figure someone's gonna try flipping, right?


----------



## gangrel

WHY WAS THIS THREAD MOVED???

The question is legitimate on its own merits rather than being buried on page 50! 

Who's moderating now, ppaulusz???

THIS WAS NOT JUSTIFIED.


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator moved it, expecting the watches to be sold and reported on.


----------



## tomchicago

*Re: Citizen 0100: Where are you?*

Thank you for Your arrogant dismissal, Ppauluscz. I recognize my fault and beg Your forgiveness. I, a mere ignorant mortal, am not as wise as Thou, nor willest I e'er be. Please, show me how I may acquire even the smallest fraction of Thine Providence. I hailest Thee!



ppaulusz said:


> I can't believe that you've started a new topic for this stupid question... There is already a well visited topic for the 0100S, we don't really need this one as is.
> 
> Just for your info if it was already shipped we would have heard of that, haven't we?!


----------



## gangrel

So it doesn't matter if we ignore the git, I take it. He still runs the forum. So much for that PSA...


----------



## woodville63

*Re: Citizen 0100: Where are you?*



tomchicago said:


> Thank you for Your arrogant dismissal, Ppauluscz. I recognize my fault and beg Your forgiveness. I, a mere ignorant mortal, am not as wise as Thou, nor willest I e'er be. Please, show me how I may acquire even the smallest fraction of Thine Providence. I hailest Thee!


No need to make up your own words, just repeat the Act of Contrition.:-d Heartfelt and appropriate.:-!


----------



## ppaulusz

ronalddheld said:


> Mr. Moderator moved it, expecting the watches to be sold and reported on.


I must admit Mr. Moderator that all those years ago when Bruce and I were the moderators (in tandem) we had a very easy job thanks to the quality of the membership back then. I had a feeling that this ideal situation won't last forever and soon after that I resigned as moderator. How wise and right I was! Honestly, I did not anticipate a sharp drop of quality like we experience today but even a lesser drop would have made my life as a moderator unbearable. So, please, accept my full admiration, you must be a masochist!;-)
If you want to go ahead with - in my opinion - essential sub-forums of HAQ (like "_Elementary mathematics_" and "_Kindergarten/Nursery_") then you know that you can have my full support.:-!


----------



## harald-hans

I am also waiting for mine here in Germany ... :roll:


----------



## ronalddheld

Waiting to hear from my AD.....


----------



## dwalby

gangrel said:


> So it doesn't matter if we ignore the git, I take it. He still ruins the forum. So much for that PSA...


looks like you made a typo, you forgot an 'i' in one of the words, so I FTFY in the quote.


----------



## gangrel

dwalby said:


> looks like you made a typo, you forgot an 'i' in one of the words, so I FTFY in the quote.


There was no typo on my part.


----------



## signum8

Interesting watch however it doesn't make much sense for me paying $15,000 to go from 5 to 1 SPY.:think:


----------



## gangrel

signum8 said:


> Interesting watch however it doesn't make much sense for me paying $15,000 to go from 5 to 1 SPY.:think:


That one is only half about going to 1 SPY; it's a gold case. The 'basic' black dial model is only 7K.

Only.


----------



## signum8

I did see that $7400 model, I guess I thought the linked white gold model was the only one offered. While I personally may not want a limited edition, they had no problem finding takers. That said, I hope they soon ramp up production, and consequently lower prices.


----------



## tomchicago

Yeah I won't touch the LE's. If the 0100 goes regular production and is well priced, I'll consider one.


----------



## harald-hans

Received a call from my AD - watch arrived !!!

Will go there next week for pickup ...


----------



## tomchicago

Wunderbar hans! Please post photos and review when you have!



harald-hans said:


> Received a call from my AD - watch arrived !!!
> 
> Will go there next week for pickup ...


----------



## harald-hans

A few quick shot´s with the iPhone ...










Backside still with foil ...


----------



## tomchicago

Congratulations, Hans and thank you for the photos. I hope you'll post a review after you've worn it for some time. Your 4020 if very nice as well.


----------



## gangrel

My wallet is glaring daggers at those photos...


----------



## ronalddheld

Talking to my AD again.


----------



## gangrel

As an aside, I tried checking online. Arizona Fine Time has the black dial *for sale*...not pre order. Citizen USA is still saying pre order but I suspect that means any they expect to get...are already reserved.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

harald-hans said:


> A few quick shot´s with the iPhone ...


Thank you for the real-world photos. Very interested in your thoughts after you've spent more time with it.

From an aesthetic point of view, that is *far* better looking in your photos than the official shots and even some of the blog previews had made it look.


----------



## tomchicago

Jus' cheel. 0100 gonna be in regular production announced 2020.



gangrel said:


> As an aside, I tried checking online. Arizona Fine Time has the black dial *for sale*...not pre order. Citizen USA is still saying pre order but I suspect that means any they expect to get...are already reserved.


----------



## signum8

Thanks Hans. For someone like me obsessed with analog watches hitting the marks and being autonomously within that 1spy, that's really a dream watch, but I suspect I'll never see it go down to 1k even mass produced. One of those times I wish I could be proven wrong.


----------



## harald-hans

tomchicago said:


> Jus' cheel. 0100 gonna be in regular production announced 2020.


Source !?


----------



## gangrel

harald-hans: We don't have a source, but it's irrational for Citizen to sink a substantial amount of time and money into developing the 8 MHz tech, then just go with these models. So, we're presuming there will be more. Potentially, even probably, not the gold...but hey, they might keep a gold model in the catalog, if this one sells. Kind of like the Hermes Apple Watch. Now, the form of the production might vary, as it feels unlikely sales numbers would ever be particularly high:

--a few small- to mid-sized batch LEs...200 to 500...akin to how they've been releasing many of the A060 Chronomasters this year.

--showcase LEs...the white gold is the showcase here, but maybe they'll do other exotic materials like the Eco Drive One's cermet. G-P is releasing a chronograph Laureato using Carbon Glass...a carbon fiber infused with colored fiberglass...it's really gorgeous, IMO.

https://deployant.com/new-and-reviewed-girard-perregaux-laureato-absolute-carbon-glass-chronograph/

Now, ok, Citizen doesn't do much with carbon fiber or ceramics, far as we know, but hey, this'd be one way to introduce them. The downside is, they'd be pricey.

--Start out slow with regular production that's traditional. Black, white, maybe blue dials. Simpler bracelets, because they can't undermine the black-dial LEs. Probably simpler indices.

I think most of us more or less expect the latter; the question's the price point. The problem I see is marketing...how do serial-production 0100s and A060s live together in the market? Feels like they're cannibalizing. That's the underlying notion behind the first two speculations...leave the 0100 as a flagship in all ways. The 0100 for extreme accuracy, the Eco Drive One for extreme thinness.


----------



## ronalddheld

Two quick photos.


----------



## tsteph12

^
Congratulations! Beautiful and hope you enjoy for years to come.


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## harald-hans




----------



## watchcrank_tx

I'm increasingly appreciative that Citizen took the time to make a Citizen-styled watch for the release of this movement, using traditional Citizen case and hand cues. It really does look great in photos.


----------



## HorologicOptic

harald-hans said:


>


-

Congrats Hans! This is the first time I've seen one in the wild! I agree that it's looking better in "real world" photos than all the pressers have shown... funny how that works out! It certainly is a looker, wow!

I am certainly looking forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences with this piece once you have gotten some quality wrist-time with it. Enjoy!

-



tomchicago said:


> 0100 gonna be in regular production announced 2020.


I personally do not see Citizen immediately cheapening such a competitive advantage, at least not until Seiko unveils a 9F successor to compete with this - and that's not even a sure thing. I would think the most we will see in the near future of the next couple of years is 0100 movements appearing in watches around the $4000-$5000 list range as limited runs with less prestige than these initial exclusive release offerings.


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## HorologicOptic

Hans - How was the buying experience? I am not sure about AD's in Germany, but sometimes I have heard about even high-end brand AD's in the US giving customers a less than stellar experience.

*Was the buying and receiving experience made to feel as special as the watch?* As an aside, was this a standalone Citizen AD or a shop that deals multiple brands?


----------



## harald-hans

TrawlingOne said:


> Hans - How was the buying experience? I am not sure about AD's in Germany, but sometimes I have heard about even high-end brand AD's in the US giving customers a less than stellar experience.
> 
> *Was the buying and receiving experience made to feel as special as the watch?* As an aside, was this a standalone Citizen AD or a shop that deals multiple brands?


Nothing special - I "ordered" the watch over the telephone after the Baselword from an Citizen AD who also deals multiple brands by asking him if he is able to order one for me.

24 hours later he said yes and that it was.

The watch arrived at his shop and I had the choice to personally pick up the watch or have it sent to me.

Since the dealer is too far away, the watch was sent to me at my request.

That´s it ...


----------



## ronalddheld

My AD emailed me a follow up. AFAIR, this is unprecedented for a quartz watch.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

ronalddheld said:


> My AD emailed me a follow up. AFAIR, this is unprecedented for a quartz watch.


What AD, and do they still have stock?


----------



## ronalddheld

watchcrank said:


> What AD, and do they still have stock?


PM sent.


----------



## ronalddheld

watchcrank said:


> What AD, and do they still have stock?


PM sent.


----------



## jihn

The mother of pearl 0100 looks really pale. Is that the case, @ronalddheld?


----------



## ronalddheld

jihn said:


> The mother of pearl 0100 looks really pale. Is that the case, @ronalddheld?


I do not own that dial, nor have I seen one live. Sorry.


----------



## ronalddheld

jihn said:


> The mother of pearl 0100 looks really pale. Is that the case, @ronalddheld?


I do not own that dial, nor have I seen one live. Sorry.


----------



## jihn

Oh, I thought because of your photos in post #532.


----------



## ronalddheld

jihn said:


> Oh, I thought because of your photos in post #532.


I have the same black dial as harald-hans. Might be my poor photos.


----------



## ronalddheld

jihn said:


> Oh, I thought because of your photos in post #532.


I have the same black dial as harald-hans. Might be my poor photos.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

ronalddheld said:


> I have the same black dial as harald-hans. Might be my poor photos.


I think it's just because the crystal protector was still on when you photographed it, making the dial look mottled and lighter than it is.


----------



## tomchicago

Gents I think Citizen are clearing out prior model case inventory to make room for 0100 regular production models. Just a prediction.


----------



## harald-hans

I hope NOT ...

Please please please Citizen - keep the 0100 Caliber as a "top of the line" High End Caliber and just release watches located ABOVE the three versions you just released ...

You can add step by step different "complications" - for example - Perpetual Calendar, Day Date, GMT, Moonphase or whatever but please do not make that caliber a "to almost anyone caliber" ...

My simple opinion ...


----------



## watchcrank_tx

ronalddheld said:


> PM sent.


An order on a similarly priced watch recently fell through, so the 0100S is now firmly in budget, but upon reflection, I think I'm going to take the rest of the year off from large purchases. I admire this 0100S more and more, but it's also a watch I doubt I would wear often, and as my other watches in this price range are worn frequently, I don't feel it would be the most efficient purchase for me. (My next watch in the $7-10k range should probably be an Ochs und Junior moonphase, but that's a subject for a different subforum.)

Unless an SBGN007 pops up at a great price, I may stand pat on HAQ until after the spring announcements and see if less expensive 0100S models emerge (unlike tomchicago, I'm pessimistic that will happen soon, but I'd be pleasantly surprised if it did) or if Seiko release a three-handed 9F with the IAHH from the GMT models.

Thank you again for the tip though, and my congratulations to all of you who have landed this one. You own what's currently the coolest watch in the world IMO. |>



harald-hans said:


> Please please please Citizen - keep the 0100 Caliber as a "top of the line" High End Caliber and just release watches located ABOVE the three versions you just released ...


Given the price of the initial LE models, I don't know that a stainless steel model in the $5,000 range would be out of place in their lineup. That wouldn't be abusive to buyers of the more special titanium LE whilst still being a premium over the lower line of Chronomasters (and indeed over most - all? - of Grand Seiko's 9F models). I don't have any insight into Citizen's plans, but from what we read before about low crystal yields, I simply can't see this movement being mainstream anytime soon.


----------



## ronalddheld

I am unconvinced 0100 is going into regular production soon, and at this forum's affordable price. Maybe Citizen is reducing the A caliber lines to make room for more LEs?


----------



## tomchicago

LE's only benefit the collector, not the company. Citizen literally has the ability to corner the entire HAQ market with a regular production 0100.


----------



## gangrel

tomchicago said:


> LE's only benefit the collector, not the company. Citizen literally has the ability to corner the entire HAQ market with a regular production 0100.


Nah. No chance, I'd say, for 2 major reasons:

#1: COST. What is the reasonable, lowest cost standard production model price they can name, without really devaluing the black-dial LE in particular? It's not that special relative to what we largely expect from a non-LE. I can't see it going below, let's say, 4K. Even at this price, that's FAR over both Chronomasters and most 9Fs...not to mention Precidrives.

#2: Seiko has a better reputation and much broader market presence, *particularly* with upscale watches. Citizen, far as I can recall, almost exclusively mentions just the "no battery, runs on any light"...but what do people see? The department-store level models.

EDIT: Reason #3...almost no one *cares* about 1 SPY. 10 SPY is far, far better than anyone needs for daily use, but the basic choice is 20 seconds a month and 10 SPY. 20 seconds a month still suggests occasional resets, so the 10 SPY is reasonably justified, if overkill. But going to 5 or 1? It doesn't matter. (And even if it did...RF or GPS.) This is a geek/enthusiast/horotech freak's piece. And I say that as someone who wants one.


----------



## gangrel

harald-hans said:


> I hope NOT ...
> 
> Please please please Citizen - keep the 0100 Caliber as a "top of the line" High End Caliber and just release watches located ABOVE the three versions you just released ...
> 
> You can add step by step different "complications" - for example - Perpetual Calendar, Day Date, GMT, Moonphase or whatever but please do not make that caliber a "to almost anyone caliber" ...
> 
> My simple opinion ...


Wildly unlikely, IMO, to splinter the market. I can see them throwing in the perp cal...but it'll be an across the board update, a "caliber 0101." They've never bothered doing this with the A-series, why do it here when the demand is going to be lower? GMT, day-date, and moonphase all require movement variants that are just a PITA unless there's large-scale interest.

And even the Chronomasters are far, far from "almost anyone" watches. I'll assert that 80% of the people in the US or Europe would never *consider* spending 2K on a stupid WATCH. Well, ok, unless it's a diamond watch for wife or girlfriend. But that's about buying her pretty jewelry.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

gangrel said:


> Nah. No chance, I'd say, for 2 major reasons:
> 
> #1: COST. What is the reasonable, lowest cost standard production model price they can name, without really devaluing the black-dial LE in particular? It's not that special relative to what we largely expect from a non-LE. I can't see it going below, let's say, 4K. Even at this price, that's FAR over both Chronomasters and most 9Fs...not to mention Precidrives.
> 
> #2: Seiko has a better reputation and much broader market presence, *particularly* with upscale watches. Citizen, far as I can recall, almost exclusively mentions just the "no battery, runs on any light"...but what do people see? The department-store level models.
> 
> EDIT: Reason #3...almost no one *cares* about 1 SPY. 10 SPY is far, far better than anyone needs for daily use, but the basic choice is 20 seconds a month and 10 SPY. 20 seconds a month still suggests occasional resets, so the 10 SPY is reasonably justified, if overkill. But going to 5 or 1? It doesn't matter. (And even if it did...RF or GPS.) This is a geek/enthusiast/horotech freak's piece. And I say that as someone who wants one.


As someone who also wants one, I regretfully must agree with you. Also, am I imagining things, or did we all not read something a year or so ago about how yields of the crystals for the 0100 were miserably low, implying the base cost of the movement to be extraordinarily high? Maybe I am imagining that, because I'm not finding it with a web search now.

Re. your second and third points, I concur especially. Outside of East Asia, Citizen's presence over $1,000 is a pale shadow of Grand Seiko's. The market for a HAQ watch is tiny at least going by the minuscule number of avowed HAQ enthusiasts, either here or anywhere else I have found. I suspect many a Grand Seiko quartz customer ends up with HAQ simply because that's all Grand Seiko will sell, not out of any particular preference for the technologies that make it intrinsically accurate. In fact, I'd suspect most would prefer radio control.* The market then for an expensive Citizen HAQ in the West must be beyond tiny. Put another way: Citizen currently have what they claim - and have the track record and on paper also have the technology to back their claim - to be the most accurate genuine wristwatch** ever made and are offering it in what seem to be very small numbers, yet some US ADs have been reported as making deals on them in order to move their allotment. That doesn't auger well for a volume push.

* As I told a friend when he saw my Oceanus T200 for the first time the other night and marveled at its quality for price, it's not my favorite watch, nor my most interesting, but I can't factually state that it's not my most accurate on wrist, extrinsic though that accuracy may be. And with finishing that's 50-60% of a Grand Seiko (case made and finished in the same shop, though with less time spent of course) at a sixth of the price and more accurate - wherever that accuracy comes from - I can't with a clear eye not say it's my best watch all in all either. He ordered a T200 the next morning. :-d

** I must regretfully discount those Bathy's and Hoptroff atomics simply for their absurd size, larger than a credit card in profile yet nearly an inch thick too.


----------



## tomchicago

+1 for the T200. Big fan of the Oceanus line. Interesting points to consider all around, gents.


----------



## Barbababa

I kind of agree with you, Citizen should keep it as a special gem . Within Citizens portfolio they have all other needs covered (GMT, Day/Date, RC, GPS, Divers and so on). And Citizen Group have other brands to "play" with ( Bulova, Frederique Constant, Alpina, Arnold&Son Wittnauer, and a couple moore) 
On other hand, it would be pretty cool to bring eco-drive with this technology in ALL eco-drive watches and totally dominate the market. Within the Chronomaster line there is only the AB9000 and some ladies models with A660 quartz left, so eco-drive is surely the future. Keep cal.0100 and ONE as they are!


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## tomchicago

Hans what are your wearing impressions so far if any?


----------



## gangrel

Barbababa said:


> I kind of agree with you, Citizen should keep it as a special gem . Within Citizens portfolio they have all other needs covered (GMT, Day/Date, RC, GPS, Divers and so on). And Citizen Group have other brands to "play" with ( Bulova, Frederique Constant, Alpina, Arnold&Son Wittnauer, and a couple moore)
> On other hand, it would be pretty cool to bring eco-drive with this technology in ALL eco-drive watches and totally dominate the market. Within the Chronomaster line there is only the AB9000 and some ladies models with A660 quartz left, so eco-drive is surely the future. Keep cal.0100 and ONE as they are!


Citizen expressly wants those brands kept separate, with their own, distinctive product lines. For FC, that was actually a major aspect of the deal. Actually doing Eco Drive FC's could well be a major marketing mistake, at least until ETA or Ronda starts going solar. Bulova's investigating a different tack...the electrostatic motor. They showed a concept model at Baselworld; several of us are looking forward to next year's Baselworld to see where they're at. And Arnold is a boutique, haute horlogerie brand. They've got one of the best moon phase displays out there...certainly my favorite in the moon-disk style which is the most common. (There are some very cool directly rotating moons, or shutter-based, that are nice too.)

The AB9000's would seem to be legacy pieces, probably kept alive to satisfy those who don't want solar. Doesn't matter that they're Luddites in your, or my, opinion...they've got the right to have even a wrong opinion.  If it's not a burden on Citizen to keep some A660's in production...or until they run out of existing stock...why not? But fundamentally, virtually all their quartz production is Eco Drive.


----------



## ronalddheld

I just received mages of the gold model.


----------



## ronalddheld

Anyone wanting more details can PM me.


----------



## harald-hans

Unbelieveable - after playing a while with the crown - in, out, turning etc. - you know what I mean - it seems that I have unlocked a new funcition ...

Great work Citizen what you have done with the Cal. 0100 ...

Take a look - a "Moonphasecomplication" ... :think:  :-d :-!


----------



## jihn

Good question, hans-harald, what happened in October when we switched from summer to winter time, did you have to correct it yourself? Won't we be able to measure the time over a whole year?


----------



## harald-hans

jihn said:


> Good question, hans-harald, what happened in October when we switched from summer to winter time, did you have to correct it yourself? Won't we be able to measure the time over a whole year?


What do you think will happen - of course nothing ...

Why ? Because Citizen naturally has considered this ...

Just pull out the crown in Position 1 of 2 and you can move the hour hand WITHOUT stopping the watch ... ;-)

Only in Position 2 the movement will stop ...|>


----------



## gangrel

Yah, that's also how the A010 and A060 do it. Crown position 1 is pretty commonly the date position...in the A0x0 and presumably the 0100, it's principally the hour adjustment, with the date adjustment by rolling forward or back through the days to get the date set right. Minutes and seconds continue as normal. Crown position 2 stops the seconds hand for finer time adjustment.


----------



## jihn

I found three unfortunately bad pictures of the 0100 MOP here:

https://retroworldnews.com/citizen-calibre-0100-eco-drive-the-worlds-accurate-watch/


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## tomchicago

Thank you, Hans. We'd love to hear your wearing impressions.


----------



## harald-hans

It wear´s perfect on the wrist - 58gr. inlcluding the titanium strap is like nothing ...

One of the best watches I ever own ...


----------



## jihn

harald-hans said:


> One of the best watches I ever own ...


Simple question from me: why?
How does it feel compared to - let's say - a Rolex?


----------



## HorologicOptic

jihn said:


> Simple question from me: why?
> How does it feel compared to - let's say - a Rolex?


I'm sure it's at least lighter from the weight savings of omitting any _superfluous _dial text :roll:


----------



## ronalddheld

Should anyone be interested in acquiring a black dial version, PM me for the details.


----------



## harald-hans

Oh no - you really want to sell this Hyper Cool Watch ?


----------



## ronalddheld

harald-hans said:


> Oh no - you really want to sell this Hyper Cool Watch ?


Not at all.


----------



## ronalddheld

harald-hans said:


> Oh no - you really want to sell this Hyper Cool Watch ?


Not at all.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

A Blog to Watch posted a review a few days ago

Article:

Citizen Caliber 0100 World's Most Accurate Watch Review

Video:






This is a watch I want badly, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to spend the coin for it so far. I gathered from one AD that there was some discount available, but I didn't get around to finding out how much at the time, and they seem to be out of their allocation by now. I've deliberated reaching out to Ron's contact, but I've not yet.


----------



## harald-hans

Go and get one - you will not regret it ... ;-)


----------



## gangrel

I'll like the watch, but not close to 8K's worth of like, if you count tax.

Also at this point, I'd rather wait for Citizen's 2020 product announcements. I kinda figure they'll be soon-ish...next few weeks, in part because Seiko just announced what would've been their Baselworld models. Baselworld itself would be a ways off had it not been cancelled, but we are only a couple weeks out from when it had been held for the last several years. I figure at this point, it's worth waiting. Anything they announce now *probably* will be a late spring/early summer release, rather than fall; there wouldn't be technical changes. (This has been true, I believe, for the Eco Drive One and A060 models after the first models.)


----------



## wbird

I watched the video and I'm trying real hard to like this watch and just can't. Sure I appreciate the tech that went into it, but I just don't find it attractive. Frankly the Japanese don't own the minimalistic or bauhaus design, especially in watches. It's just one aspect of the Japanese design aesthetic. A look at vintage Japanese watches, a walk through Tokyo, and living there for a while will make you question if it is really a major component at all. Japan is not all Zen, just like the US is not all western style.

In this case there are other watches with similar design that just look better, and are cheaper. A Nomos and a Rolex Oyster no date to name a couple. The hands and markers are more attractive, and dials just look way better, probably because of the limitations of a solar dial. Let's call the cases and bracelets a push.

Again if cutting edge tech is what you're after, and you like the looks, this watch certainly meets that requirement. It's all good and I can understand why you bought it. But just me I want the accuracy in something I like on my wrist. The looks come first.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

gangrel said:


> I'll like the watch, but not close to 8K's worth of like, if you count tax.p


In my case it's slightly over $8k. Seems Citizen US are the only ones with any stock left, they charge tax since they do business in my state, and the price seems to be the price. Of course it's only after they're all gone that I see River Edge were selling them for 25% off (and no tax to my state I believe)! In the end, I am mostly decided I can't pull the trigger at the price that buying directly from Citizen commands. I should have bought from an AD while I had the chance. :-(



gangrel said:


> Also at this point, I'd rather wait for Citizen's 2020 product announcements. I kinda figure they'll be soon-ish...next few weeks, in part because Seiko just announced what would've been their Baselworld models. Baselworld itself would be a ways off had it not been cancelled, but we are only a couple weeks out from when it had been held for the last several years. I figure at this point, it's worth waiting. Anything they announce now *probably* will be a late spring/early summer release, rather than fall; there wouldn't be technical changes. (This has been true, I believe, for the Eco Drive One and A060 models after the first models.)


While I hope to be pleasantly surprised, I remain unconvinced we'll see the 0100S in anything else anytime soon, and if we do, I have doubts it will have the case and build quality of this one. I would buy the 0100S if it were a few thousand less, but as it is, I can buy a used SBGN001 or 007, a gray market Breitling Superocean, *and* a Black Bay 58 (possibly after waiting a bit) - knocking out three fairly high ranked pieces on my buy list, one of them only a handful of seconds worse per year than the 0100 - and be only $800 behind. So I must leave this one to those with bigger watch funds or more dedicated HAQ focus than I. :-(


----------



## tomchicago

Just hold tight for regular production. Citizen are complete fools if they don't put this movement into regular production and then absolutely own the HAQ space.


----------



## TraserH3

tomchicago said:


> Just hold tight for regular production. Citizen are complete fools if they don't put this movement into regular production and then absolutely own the HAQ space.


depends on how much of he movement requires hand tuning and manual fab


----------



## watchcrank_tx

TraserH3 said:


> depends on how much of he movement requires hand tuning and manual fab


That, plus I swear I saw a quote from 2018 or 2019 saying the crystal yield was too low for the 4Mhz crystals to be mass produced. Does anyone else remember that, or did I just dream it or something? My memory works in mysterious and sometimes unreliable ways, so I'll not be shocked if I'm wrong about that.


----------



## ronalddheld

I believe that there will be no "cheap" 0100 anytime soon. Too much LE thinking in companies and difficulty in mass production would be my guesses.


----------



## harald-hans

ronalddheld said:


> I believe that there will be no "cheap" 0100 anytime soon. Too much LE thinking in companies and difficulty in mass production would be my guesses.


Same opinion here - no reason for Citizen to make this ... :-!


----------



## harald-hans

After aproximate 4 month of wearing you see that you see nothing - no sratch not even on the clasp ...










Here are few more pic´s for the doubters


----------



## tomchicago

It's mainly the AT cut shape that yields the timing improvement, not a magic crystal.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

tomchicago said:


> It's mainly the AT cut shape that yields the timing improvement, not a magic crystal.


I hope that is true. Exclusivity is a negative in my book. I am sick to death with limited editions though I own a few because they're frequently the most interesting and desirable watches a brand produces.


----------



## wbird

tomchicago said:


> It's mainly the AT cut shape that yields the timing improvement, not a magic crystal.


I thought the AT cut and angle will give you great stability across a pretty broad temp range, but the purity of the crystal will be what enables you to dial it in. If it has gases or other impurties it will be difficult to match the electronics. Gases are fairly easy to get rid of just heat the crystal in ovens prior to calibration, but particulates are a bigger problem.


----------



## Tom2517

So this is where the caliber 0100 discussion is.


----------



## harald-hans

Yours ?


----------



## Tom2517

yes, just got it about a week ago. waited about a month for it.


----------



## harald-hans

Congrats ...


----------



## Tom2517

thanks, I am surprised after all these talk there are not more owners here.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

Tom2517 said:


> So this is where the caliber 0100 discussion is.


Wow, congratulations. |>b-)

It seems that like the titanium models, the white gold version looks a lot better in end-user photos than it did in the official studio shots.


----------



## harald-hans

Gerald_D said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Have I not posted photos/videos of my MoP in this thread yet?
> 
> Time to correct that.
> 
> Tracking the second hand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to show off the MoP dial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seem to be some bugs in the forum. Vimeo videos not embedding. Here are the links -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And some stills...
> 
> View attachment 15067999
> 
> 
> View attachment 15068001
> 
> 
> View attachment 15068003
> 
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Gerald.


Very cool - thank you for your efforts ...


----------



## Tom2517

tomchicago said:


> Well said and I think you might be right. I think they'll have a very hard time moving product at that price-- too many competing options. I will not get one if that's the case. My top is $2500 for reg prod, maybe $3k. Frankly, I'm really cozying up to my $10USD F-91W. I could seriously see wearing just this for a very long time:
> 
> View attachment 15040025


I think it will be higher than 2500~3000 because this will be in the range of GS's 9F quartz. I would think Citizen wants to position caliber 0100 higher.


----------



## Barbababa

Tom2517 said:


> I think it will be higher than 2500~3000 because this will be in the range of GS's 9F quartz. I would think Citizen wants to position caliber 0100 higher.


I agree. I´m not even sure if I think it will come in a regular production any day soon eather. I think it will come at least one more LE before they consider a regular production. It´s still a showcase piece, and with GS rising prices with every new model and new LE´s all the time, it does not make sense to me. Just like with the eco-drive ONE, not dropping in price or coming in cheaper package, I don´t see the cal.0100 doing it in a near future eather.


----------



## tomchicago

GS HAQ have not raised price.



Barbababa said:


> I agree. I´m not even sure if I think it will come in a regular production any day soon eather. I think it will come at least one more LE before they consider a regular production. It´s still a showcase piece, and with GS rising prices with every new model and new LE´s all the time, it does not make sense to me. Just like with the eco-drive ONE, not dropping in price or coming in cheaper package, I don´t see the cal.0100 doing it in a near future eather.


----------



## Barbababa

*"with GS rising prices with every new model and new LE´s all the time"*.


----------



## chucklesmcgee

Barbababa said:


> I agree. I´m not even sure if I think it will come in a regular production any day soon eather. I think it will come at least one more LE before they consider a regular production.


And maybe they'll release what's basically a 0100S with looser quality control on the crystal selection and sell it as a special Chronomaster or similar officially specced at +2, +3 SPY. Allows them to make use of all this development without undermining the exclusivity of the 0100S.


----------



## Tom-HK

chucklesmcgee said:


> And maybe they'll release what's basically a 0100S with looser quality control on the crystal selection and sell it as a special Chronomaster or similar officially specced at +2, +3 SPY. Allows them to make use of all this development without undermining the exclusivity of the 0100S.


Interesting. Makes me think of their foray into 4.19 MHz watches in the 1970s. Their first one to market was spec'd to 3 SPY and was a very expensive LE. All subsequent models using the same 4.19 MHz technology were spec'd to 5 SPY. So there is precedent for this.

EDIT - The question is, would they bother with a 2 or 3 SPY model when their standard model is already 5 SPY? If the 1 SPY movement is so costly to make due to the extremely tight tollerances then we might simply never see serial production.


----------



## harald-hans

168 Days after timesetting ...


----------



## Barbababa

chucklesmcgee said:


> And maybe they'll release what's basically a 0100S with looser quality control on the crystal selection and sell it as a special Chronomaster or similar officially specced at +2, +3 SPY. Allows them to make use of all this development without undermining the exclusivity of the 0100S.


 I think it´s us fans that wants a more affordable model (me included). I have noticed that the concept of building a show case piece without the need to make money from that specific piece is hard to grasp for many. I would think that a lot of the r&d will come in use in the rest of the production as well. I´m just guessing, but I think the Chronomaster line will continue to grow while the cal.0100 will continue to be a LE. At least for the forseeable future.


----------



## gangrel

Tom-HK said:


> Interesting. Makes me think of their foray into 4.19 MHz watches in the 1970s. Their first one to market was spec'd to 3 SPY and was a very expensive LE. All subsequent models using the same 4.19 MHz technology were spec'd to 5 SPY. So there is precedent for this.
> 
> EDIT - The question is, would they bother with a 2 or 3 SPY model when their standard model is already 5 SPY? If the 1 SPY movement is so costly to make due to the extremely tight tollerances then we might simply never see serial production.


Yeah, putting all the A060's at 5 SPY doesn't seem like there's enough room for a step in between that and 1 SPY. It's not like there's a huge call for even COSC quartz accuracy.


----------



## harald-hans

A little "accessories" for the Cal.0100 ...


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## tomchicago

I move that Hans be required to post a new photo of his 0100 minimum every 48 hours.



harald-hans said:


>


----------



## harald-hans

Day 256 on wrist and since time setting ...


----------



## ava1ar

Finally was able to get one (second hand, in like new condition with all papers for $4k + tax in US). Wonderful watch! I feel difficult to make myself wear something else which is less precise (this is weird, I know) - so I am wearing Cal 0100 and my GShock 5600 with Radio/Bluetooth sync (when doing something around the house)...


----------



## harald-hans

Congratulations - you will love this watch - I wear mine know 264 days in row ...


----------



## ava1ar

Thanks! I own it for just a week, but loving it already. Just a Simple Precision...


----------



## Henrixen

Any noticeable deviation yet 

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


----------



## ava1ar

Henrixen said:


> Any noticeable deviation yet


So far, up to +/-0.1 seconds per day, but average rate is +0.0. Pretty awesome. I am tracking other quartz watches I have and usually you start seeing the second+ difference after a week (or earlier), but not with caliber 0100!


----------



## ronalddheld

Ava1ar, what method are you using to measure the offset?


----------



## ava1ar

Nothing fancy. So called naked eye method from Methods of Determining the Accuracy of a Watch and WatchCheck Android app. For quartz watches with ticking second hand (like Caliber 0100) you can see when hand reaches 12 mark pretty easy and can easily get 0.1 sec precision. I am looking for more accurate methods from mentioned article (i.e. record video and pick up frame when hand reaches 12), but didn't try that so far.


----------



## ronalddheld

Looking forward to you trying other methods.


----------



## harald-hans

I am using „WatchTracker“ for my iPhone ...


----------



## harald-hans




----------



## harald-hans




----------



## gaijin

My X-33 Calibre 1666C Heat-compensated for the last 33 weeks:










Overall +0.000 Seconds/Year.


----------



## ava1ar

This is pretty cool! How do you measure the accuracy when offset is in 1/100th 1/1000th of the second? If you do this by hand, manually pressing button when hand in passing 12, there is no point to include 1/1000th or even 1/100th, since human reaction time will be higher. I am currently experimenting with video recording method and checking the timestamp of the frame where arrow reaches the 12, but with 60fps video it will give me at best 1/60th of second, which is 0.017 of second. And all this makes sense if I can get clock showing me precise time up to milliseconds.


----------



## gaijin

ava1ar said:


> This is pretty cool! How do you measure the accuracy when offset is in 1/100th 1/1000th of the second? If you do this by hand, manually pressing button when hand in passing 12, there is no point to include 1/1000th or even 1/100th, since human reaction time will be higher. I am currently experimenting with video recording method and checking the timestamp of the frame where arrow reaches the 12, but with 60fps video it will give me at best 1/60th of second, which is 0.017 of second. And all this makes sense if I can get clock showing me precise time up to milliseconds.


No reaction time involved. I shoot 30 seconds of video @ 120 frames/sec showing both the X-33 and my time reference. The time reference is a LeoNTP Stratum 1 Master Clock / Time server with GPS synchronized clock source (Spec sheet here: LEONTP NETWORK MASTER CLOCK/TIME SERVER).

Each days data are the average of 30 separate measurements. Each measurement is of a separate seconds marker on the watch during the recording. The 120 frames/second recording speed gives me a precision of 0.00833 seconds. Time reference error is essentially nil.

Each day's offset measurements rarely deviate more than +1 frame. As an example, here are the last few days offset measurements summary showing the Average offset of the 30 measurements, Maximum, Minumum and Standard Deviation:


AverageMaxMinStd Dev-0.00470.0000-0.00830.0041-0.00330.0000-0.00830.0041-0.00220.0000-0.00830.0037-0.00250.0000-0.00830.0038-0.00280.0000-0.00830.0039-0.00060.0083-0.00830.00370.00140.00830.00000.00310.00330.00830.00000.00410.00390.00830.00000.00420.00610.00830.00000.00370.00530.00830.00000.00400.00530.00830.00000.00400.00560.00830.00000.00390.00580.00830.00000.00380.00440.00830.00000.00420.00560.00830.00000.00390.00220.00830.00000.00370.00390.00830.00000.00420.00390.00830.00000.00420.00390.00830.00000.00420.00190.00830.00000.00350.00220.00830.00000.00370.00190.00830.00000.0035-0.00030.0000-0.00830.0015-0.00220.0000-0.00830.0037-0.00030.0083-0.00830.0034-0.00080.0083-0.00830.0033-0.00080.0083-0.00830.0033-0.00060.0000-0.00830.00210.00080.0083-0.00830.00330.00080.0083-0.00830.00330.00170.00830.00000.00330.00190.00830.00000.0035

Works for me.

HTH

Edit to add: Measurements are newest at the top and oldest at the bottom. The graph I posted in my previous post ended with yesterday's Average Offset (-0.0033 Seconds), but the table in this post includes today's Average Offset (-0047 Seconds).


----------



## ava1ar

Thanks for the detailed report, very useful!



gaijin said:


> No reaction time involved. I shoot 30 seconds of video @ 120 frames/sec showing both the X-33 and my time reference.


This approach I am trying to onboard now. But I definitely need a better time source than a phone. Also, I did it with 60fps, need to try 120+



gaijin said:


> I shoot 30 seconds of video
> ...
> Each days data are the average of 30 separate measurements.


Wait, what? 30 measurements each day? And each measurement is 30 seconds of video. This is 30 times x 30 s = 900 seconds = 25 minutes / day, not counting the time to analyze these videos and record the measurements. Do you really do this every day?


----------



## gaijin

ava1ar said:


> Thanks for the detailed report, very useful!
> 
> This approach I am trying to onboard now. But I definitely need a better time source than a phone. Also, I did it with 60fps, need to try 120+
> 
> Wait, what? 30 measurements each day? And each measurement is 30 seconds of video. This is 30 times x 30 s = 900 seconds = 25 minutes / day, not counting the time to analyze these videos and record the measurements. Do you really do this every day?


Measurements are once for each second of the 30 second video. Those 30 measurements, encompassing 30 seconds, are averaged for a daily resultant Average Offset. That's what I do every day.

Depending on your phone, it can vary quite a bit. If all you have is your phone, I suggest using a time App like Emerald Sequoia which give a much more accurate time display.

HTH


----------



## ava1ar

Got it, thanks! Do you do this for your Omega X33 only or you have more HAQ watches?


----------



## gaijin

ava1ar said:


> Got it, thanks! Do you do this for your Omega X33 only or you have more HAQ watches?


I have data for my X-33 for the last few years, but recently have started a "secret" project that will be published soon - data that nobody has ever published for a very popular watch that may or may not be HAQ (i.e. +10 Sec/Year). The X-33 is acting as the control in this new study.


----------



## ronalddheld

Gaijin, teasing is Bad Bad, as George Bush or Dana Carvey used to say.


----------



## ava1ar

I need a better source of time to do a milliseconds-based measurements  I tried using my phone with apps like AtomicClock which theoretically gives millisecond precision, but I don't think it is correct. When I am recording the video and checking timestamps by frames, I see quite large inconsistency between several measurements for same watch - from -0.15 to +0.18 seconds. I think I will stick to 1/10th of seconds for now, it is the best I can get without the better time source...


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Gaijin, teasing is Bad Bad, as George Bush or Dana Carvey used to say.


I know, I'm surprised I allowed myself to do that - especially when I don't like it when others do it.

So... OK. Here's a strong hint provided by our venerable Mr. Moderator:



ronalddheld;51648577 said:


> Apple Watch is HAQ, as it has some form of TC.


This prompted me to ask myself, "Is the Apple Watch intrinsically HAQ? And, if so, how effective is the TC?" I am in the process of determining the answers to those questions. It is not as easy as it sounds.


----------



## gaijin

ava1ar said:


> I need a better source of time to do a milliseconds-based measurements  I tried using my phone with apps like AtomicClock which theoretically gives millisecond precision, but I don't think it is correct. When I am recording the video and checking timestamps by frames, I see quite large inconsistency between several measurements for same watch - from -0.15 to +0.18 seconds. I think I will stick to 1/10th of seconds for now, it is the best I can get without the better time source...


I think you need to modify your technique.

When I'm looking at the recorded video of the watch and the time reference both in frame, I stop the video when either the second hand or the time reference first begins to move/change. At that point, I advance the video one frame at a time, counting the frames, until the one that had not moved yet starts moving. That number of frames x frame duration = time offset.

For example, Let's assume for the sake of discussion that the watch is running slightly faster than the time reference. This means that when looking at the recorded video, the second hand on the watch would begin to move before the time display on the time reference. When I see the second hand on the watch begin to move, I stop the video and back it up one frame at a time until I find the single frame where I first see movement of the second hand - that is frame zero. I then advance the recording one frame at a time, counting each frame, until I see the time display on the reference begin to move/change. That can be as little as 1 frame or many more. If it is only one frame between the frame where the second hand first began to move until the display on the reference first began to change/move, then the offset between watch and reference is one frame. If recording at 60 frames/second, the offset is 0.0167 seconds. If it takes advancing the video 5 frames until the reference display first begins to change, then the offset is 5 frames or 0.0833 seconds.

I find this method very repeatable and not very difficult to accurately determine that frame zero.

Make sense?

HTH


----------



## ava1ar

Yes, this sounds like a great idea. Let me check that.


----------



## ronalddheld

gaijin said:


> I know, I'm surprised I allowed myself to do that - especially when I don't like it when others do it.
> 
> So... OK. Here's a strong hint provided by our venerable Mr. Moderator:
> 
> This prompted me to ask myself, "Is the Apple Watch intrinsically HAQ? And, if so, how effective is the TC?" I am in the process of determining the answers to those questions. It is not as easy as it sounds.


Long ago I did a month test of the AW obits charger. No radios on. I vaguely remember an offset of .2-.3 s. No way to check different temperatures easily.
s.


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Long ago I did a month test of the AW obits charger. No radios on. I vaguely remember an offset of .2-.3 s. No way to check different temperatures easily.
> s.


Here's a hint: Even when locked, in Airplane mode, with Wi-Fi switched off... those little cheaters at Apple have enabled their watches to sneak a peek at signals anyway; but they can't cheat when in a Faraday cage


----------



## gaijin

ronalddheld said:


> Long ago I did a month test of the AW obits charger. No radios on. I vaguely remember an offset of .2-.3 s. No way to check different temperatures easily.
> s.


This is the last tidbit I'm going to leak before the work is done...

At room temperature, my Apple Watch Series 5 is already well outside 0.2 - 0.3 seconds:


----------



## harald-hans

ava1ar said:


> Will see, mine should come in a week. Which one was on your photo above? Can you please share the model and manufacturer?
> 
> Also, on the photo above Hirsch looks pretty good with Citizen ONE, which is much slimmer than Caliber 0100.


It is from a German company - Kaufmann

You can configurate it ...


----------



## ava1ar

Got my MN strap I ordered for my recently purchased Certina DS Action and while watch didn't arrive yet, put it on Citizen. Obviously, color scheme is not matching with Citizen, but overall looks and feels like premium something in between perlon and NATO. Will keep for a few days until Hirsch comes in.


----------



## ava1ar

Finally got my Hirsch (Calf Leather Performance Black version). Looks and feels very nice! "Performance" version has some visual marks (like "teeth" on the inner side, slightly visible from the sides), which makes it a bit sporty, but still keep it very official and dressy. I expect much higher durability comparing to the regular leather straps thanks to the rubber back side. Here are some photos:


























This strap is a great candidate to be a "default" strap for my citizen. Waiting for the alligator one I ordered from Etsy...


----------



## ava1ar

Barbababa said:


> I´m such a sucker for curved ends, I think it gives the watch a nice profile on the wrist


Wow, I agree that curved ends really makes sense! I checked Hirsch and looks like they don't sell curved anymore (it used to be Leonardo series). However I found few options by ABP Paris here and it looks pretty nice. As a curved ends fan, what do you think about this one?








P.S. Looks like Hirsch has some curved-ends bands, but they all looks way too thick and hardly will work with slim Caliber 0100.


----------



## gangrel

Do we really need to spend pages talking about straps here?


----------



## ronalddheld

Mr. Moderator agrees that talk about straps is not really appropriate in this thread.


----------



## ava1ar

Unfortunately there are no news about Caliber 0100 anyway, so if you prefer this forum to stay quiet definitely I can stop. Thanks everyone for providing useful links and sharing your experience, I learned a lot!

And now let's the silence come!


----------



## ronalddheld

My point is we do not need posting, just to show activity. We need quality on topic posts.


----------



## ava1ar

Since we don't have new watches, I was trying to discuss the strap selection for the only available Caliber 0100 model and choosing the perfect matching one. If this is offtopic, than I don't know what kind of posts you expect here to appear. If there will be no more Caliber0100 watches, there should not be more messages here?


----------



## Nolander

I like the posts about straps and find them interesting. It also gives us all a chance to see more pictures of this special watch.


----------



## badgerracer

Nolander said:


> I like the posts about straps and find them interesting. It also gives us all a chance to see more pictures of this special watch.


I agree. I would rather have slightly off-topic posts rather than no posts at all. I have barely left the house in 6 months, I need something to focus on!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## tomchicago

I think this is a fine discussion in the context of 0100.


----------



## ava1ar

Just to finalize my perfect strap adventure. I got ABC Paris Alligator CE strap with curved ends and this would be perfect match for me. As was mentioned before, since the pushpins are located very close to the watch body, straight ends bands usually doesn't fit well and band appear too close to (and even touching) the case. Curved ends solves this problem, but unfortunately choice of alligator/crocodile straps with curved ends is pretty small and prices are high. But I agree with someone mentioned in the thread that great piece deserves great strap! Few photos:

















It is pretty thin to match the profile of the watch and curved ends looks great on the wrist.

Thanks again for sharing suggestions, photos and links! Appreciate your help and closing the strap discussion with this post. At least we got something new to discuss - new Caliber 0100 releases in stainless steel. Hopefully we will get first owners soon!


----------



## drunken-gmt-master

ava1ar said:


> Just to finalize my perfect strap adventure. I got ABC Paris Alligator CE strap with curved ends and this would be perfect match for me. As was mentioned before, since the pushpins are located very close to the watch body, straight ends bands usually doesn't fit well and band appear too close to (and even touching) the case. Curved ends solves this problem, but unfortunately choice of alligator/crocodile straps with curved ends is pretty small and prices are high. But I agree with someone mentioned in the thread that great piece deserves great strap! Few photos:
> 
> . . .
> 
> It is pretty thin to match the profile of the watch and curved ends looks great on the wrist.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing suggestions, photos and links! Appreciate your help and closing the strap discussion with this post. At least we got something new to discuss - new Caliber 0100 releases in stainless steel. Hopefully we will get first owners soon!


Looking good. Does the strap require curved spring bars or does it use standard spring bars like the Hirsch Leonardo line?


----------



## ava1ar

drunken-gmt-master said:


> Does the strap require curved spring bars or does it use standard spring bars like the Hirsch Leonardo line?


It requires curved bars, and I was unpleasantly surprised $300+ band didn't come with them (just after receiving the band I realized I supposed to add them to the cart separately). I have to order them elsewhere (since shipping the spring bard from Europe is pretty stupid), and got this set from Amazon. They worked well.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ava1ar said:


> It requires curved bars, and I was unpleasantly surprised $300+ band didn't come with them (just after receiving the band I realized I supposed to add them to the cart separately). I have to order them elsewhere (since shipping the spring bard from Europe is pretty stupid), and got this set from Amazon. They worked well.


Stunning watch!


----------



## Barbababa

ava1ar said:


> Just to finalize my perfect strap adventure. I got ABC Paris Alligator CE strap with curved ends and this would be perfect match for me. As was mentioned before, since the pushpins are located very close to the watch body, straight ends bands usually doesn't fit well and band appear too close to (and even touching) the case. Curved ends solves this problem, but unfortunately choice of alligator/crocodile straps with curved ends is pretty small and prices are high. But I agree with someone mentioned in the thread that great piece deserves great strap! Few photos:
> 
> View attachment 15458824
> View attachment 15458825
> 
> 
> It is pretty thin to match the profile of the watch and curved ends looks great on the wrist.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing suggestions, photos and links! Appreciate your help and closing the strap discussion with this post. At least we got something new to discuss - new Caliber 0100 releases in stainless steel. Hopefully we will get first owners soon!


That´s such a beautiful watch, and great pic with the strap that looks really perfect.


----------



## CitizenPromaster

Never mind.


----------



## tomchicago

I think the 0100 looks better on that black alligator than it does on the orig bracelet. Can you post a wider view?


----------



## ava1ar

tomchicago said:


> Can you post a wider view?


Few fresh photos.


























The watch is +0.1 seconds now since I set it up on Aug 8th (take into account I am still not using any precise method, just a WatchCheck app). Also, don't see much difference when it is on the wrist or in the watchbox, the deltas are pretty much same and usually I see approximately +-0.1 seconds/week (I do my measurements weekly).


----------



## kitimon

I checked the Citizen product page for the AQ6021-51E and noticed that it said "Expected Availability: Late September". Who thinks that this is a glitch, or are they really re-stocking?






Citizen Caliber 100 Eco-Drive Limited Edition Watch | CITIZEN


Redefining precision and design, the most accurate light-powered watch in the world. The distinguished Limited Edition CITIZEN Caliber 0100 with an annual accuracy of +-1 second and limited to just 500 pieces worldwide. With a focus on every detail, this brand new timepiece features an Super...




www.citizenwatch.com


----------



## ava1ar

kitimon said:


> Who thinks that this is a glitch, or are they really re-stocking?


This is how this page looked on June 26th, 2020:










Promising sign is that "Limited Edition" is gone on the current page:










But to be sure we will definitely need to wait for "Late September" (which is pretty much now).


----------



## tomchicago

$7,400 USD on the titanium and they're asking $7,700 USD for the stainless? Citizen marketing baffling and illogical as per usual. A small niche market such as HAQ which Grand Seiko can barely monetize-- Citizen should price the stainless at $2750 (still a huge profit margin) and then own the space.


----------



## gangrel

tomchicago said:


> $7,400 USD on the titanium and they're asking $7,700 USD for the stainless? Citizen marketing baffling and illogical as per usual. A small niche market such as HAQ which Grand Seiko can barely monetize-- Citizen should price the stainless at $2750 (still a huge profit margin) and then own the space.


That does seem odd, doesn't it? I wouldn't expect a big premium but still...it should be on the titanium side.

To muddy the waters still more, this is the citizen.jp page as of right now:








シチズンウオッチ オフィシャルサイト


CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計 オフィシャルサイトです。




citizen.jp





So it still says it's limited to 500.

I'll suggest that the page kitimon is referencing, is in error. I'll HOPE it's because the US distributor is, in fact, going to get one or both of the new 6100's, and they just messed up.


----------



## kitimon

tomchicago said:


> $7,400 USD on the titanium and they're asking $7,700 USD for the stainless? Citizen marketing baffling and illogical as per usual. A small niche market such as HAQ which Grand Seiko can barely monetize-- Citizen should price the stainless at $2750 (still a huge profit margin) and then own the space.


Just curious where you got the $7,700 figure for the stainless model? Based on my calculations 700,000 yen would come out to around $6,600 - still expensive but a bit cheaper than the titanium model.

Regardless, I'd be happy if it restocked. I'm also curious to see what pricing for the stainless model will be like if it gets released in the US.


----------



## tomchicago

$6,600 doesn't change the convo. Still way overpriced and won't sell.



kitimon said:


> Just curious where you got the $7,700 figure for the stainless model? Based on my calculations 700,000 yen would come out to around $6,600 - still expensive but a bit cheaper than the titanium model.
> 
> Regardless, I'd be happy if it restocked. I'm also curious to see what pricing for the stainless model will be like if it gets released in the US.


----------



## kitimon

You're absolutely right, $6,000+ is expensive. I don't think they will let it go for much cheaper anytime soon though especially since it's basically their halo product now.


----------



## DaveM

tomchicago said:


> $6,600 doesn't change the convo. Still way overpriced and won't sell.


*1 part in 32 million accuracy is very hard to achieve.*
Even with today's technology it will demand a lot of meticulous quality-control, measurement and regulation.

*Compared with a mass-produced Rolex the Calibre 0100 is an absolute bargain.*
Perhaps only a few 'watch nerds' will agree enough to buy one, but Citizen are not making very many :-
-- Citizen Calibre 0100 -- a few hundred a year manufactured
-- Rolex stainless steel -- a few hundred thousand a year manufactured


----------



## Tom2517

tomchicago said:


> $7,400 USD on the titanium and they're asking $7,700 USD for the stainless? Citizen marketing baffling and illogical as per usual. A small niche market such as HAQ which Grand Seiko can barely monetize-- Citizen should price the stainless at $2750 (still a huge profit margin) and then own the space.


No way Citizen will price it under 3k and compete with GS's HAQ, but maybe they should.


----------



## ronalddheld

I do not see a significant price drop anytime soon


----------



## sleepyhead123

If it's not for sale on Citizen's website anymore I doubt the 0100's are going to get much discount anytime soon. I got my AR5014-04E at 25% off from an AD, but that was when the watch was still on Citizen's website at MSRP. With the 0100's gone, the only discount will probably be a stand alone AD who has one taking up display space unsold a year from now.


----------



## gangrel

sleepyhead123 said:


> If it's not for sale on Citizen's website anymore I doubt the 0100's are going to get much discount anytime soon. I got my AR5014-04E at 25% off from an AD, but that was when the watch was still on Citizen's website at MSRP. With the 0100's gone, the only discount will probably be a stand alone AD who has one taking up display space unsold a year from now.


The black dial, faceted bracelet version shows as "expected availability: late September" on the Citizen USA web site. And it's still listed on citizen.jp, IIRC.


----------



## watchcrank_tx

gangrel said:


> The black dial, faceted bracelet version shows as "expected availability: late September" on the Citizen USA web site. And it's still listed on citizen.jp, IIRC.


It seems it was more like late December instead. At least I first noticed renewed availability in Japan and the US a week or so ago. At least two US sources remain, Arizona Fine Time (who have two, per their Amazon inventory, but since they say "Call for best pricing" on their own webpage, probably best to go direct, not through Amazon) and the US Citizen site.

Those who - like I - missed out last time and regretted it might want to jump on one now for what may be the last chance. I am very glad that I did. (I'm also very glad I'm through resizing it - it uses a pin-and-collar system, which I normally like, but this one is especially obnoxious.)


----------



## chronos76

Hello everybody,
Citizen Japan has released two JDM SS Calibre 0100 watches. They do not seem to be LE. Anybody has got any hands-on experience with these?
ザ・シチズン AQ6100-56L［CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計］


----------



## watchcrank_tx

chronos76 said:


> Hello everybody,
> Citizen Japan has released two JDM SS Calibre 0100 watches. They do not seem to be LE. Anybody has got any hands-on experience with these?
> ザ・シチズン AQ6100-56L［CITIZEN-シチズン腕時計］


Welcome to Watchuseek!

There's a thread about those releases here: New citizen stainless steel 0100 release

I don't think anyone here has seen them in person yet.


----------



## SolarPower

I appreciated all the discussion about methods to check a watch precision over time. After a watch is set, how accurately does not matter really, we know how to measure how precise the watch is by comparing watch time against accurate reference time over time.

I use "continuous shooting" method and 125 us accurate GPS watch, thanks to BrianBinFL. Just couple of recent shoots just for illustration (obviously one of the series each).


















However a watch with +/- 1spy definitely deserves to be set as accurately as possible.
My question is how do you guys set the time on your AQ6021-51E to have it is as close to actual time as possible? As we know, fastest possible conscious human reactions are around 0.15 s.
Any tips?


----------



## Gerald_D

SolarPower said:


> As we know, fastest possible conscious human reactions are around 0.15 s.
> Any tips?


Fastest possible reaction time is red herring here. Nobody is going to be staring into blank space waiting for a signal to flash and then reacting by pressing a button as fast as they are able.

It would be an interesting experiment to measure how accurately someone could hit a button in time with a beating signal - I suspect it would be of the order of 0.02-0.05 seconds. I used to have fun as a kid seeing how accurately I could stop a digital chronograph at 10 seconds that had 1/100th second precision. After a bit of practice I would never be worse than +/- 0.02 seconds - and that's just hitting the stop button 10 seconds after starting the chrono.

As long as you understand how your watch restarts (I believe for most quartz watches when you stop them, they stop on a second, and when you start them up again, they start at the beginning of that second), it should be a relatively simple matter to get to within 1/10th of a second, and with some practice, 1/20th easily. The trick is not in understanding what your reaction time is, but understanding how much you need to anticipate the GPS clock signal in order to account for the time it actually takes to press the crown in.

Kind regards,

Gerald.


----------



## SolarPower

Gerald_D said:


> Fastest possible reaction time is red herring here. Nobody is going to be staring into blank space waiting for a signal to flash and then reacting by pressing a button as fast as they are able.
> 
> It would be an interesting experiment to measure how accurately someone could hit a button in time with a beating signal - I suspect it would be of the order of 0.02-0.05 seconds. I used to have fun as a kid seeing how accurately I could stop a digital chronograph at 10 seconds that had 1/100th second precision. After a bit of practice I would never be worse than +/- 0.02 seconds - and that's just hitting the stop button 10 seconds after starting the chrono.
> 
> As long as you understand how your watch restarts (I believe for most quartz watches when you stop them, they stop on a second, and when you start them up again, they start at the beginning of that second), it should be a relatively simple matter to get to within 1/10th of a second, and with some practice, 1/20th easily. The trick is not in understanding what your reaction time is, but understanding how much you need to anticipate the GPS clock signal in order to account for the time it actually takes to press the crown in.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Gerald.


Thanks Gerald. All what you said is clear and it's is absolutely the best way to do it, esp. if your reaction time is that good. My GPS clock has one tens of a second display, so it might be even easier for me to anticipate and do it as you suggested. 
Worst comes to the worst, I will send my watch to you to get a little help with it


----------



## Gerald_D

SolarPower said:


> Thanks Gerald. All what you said is clear and it's is absolutely the best way to do it, esp. if your reaction time is that good. My GPS clock has one tens of a second display, so it might be even easier for me to anticipate and do it as you suggested.
> Worst comes to the worst, I will send my watch to you to get a little help with it


Again - it's nothing to do with reaction time. It's about your ability to establish an accurate beat. I strongly recommend that you do not look at the clock to do the actual setting itself because then you will be relying to some extent on your reaction time to that final second.

Watch the clock to get the beat established, maybe for around 20 seconds or so prior to needing to start the watch. Don't watch the clock for the last few seconds - use the beat you have established. If your clock can actually tick and tock on the seconds, even better, then you can tune your head in to the ticks and tocks.

There are apps for phones that are tied to an atomic clock that have an auditory tick. I'm not sure how accurate these would be against a GPS signal (I actually have a GPS Digital Oscillator so I guess I should probably investigate some time!), but it doesn't really matter. The limiting factor in your ability to accurately set the watch will be your understanding of the delay between you initiating the action to press the crown in, and when the watch actually starts running.

I'd actually recommend not to use the GPS clock to set the watch. Use an app on a phone (I have Android and use AtomicClock), and use the auditory signal, clicking in the crown at the top of the minute (again - listen to the countdown for the last 10-20 seconds or so - do not watch the screen. You're not trying to react to the final tick - you're going by the beat you have established in your head from the 10-20 seconds of ticks prior to it.

Then check your watch against the GPS clock. See how far off it is, and practice building that anticipation (or delay) time into your rhythm. My guess is it shouldn't take more than 10 or so attempts to nail it to within the 1/10th precision your GPS clock shows.

Kind regards,

Gerald.


----------



## SolarPower

Thanks Gerald. 


Gerald_D said:


> MoP


Beautiful MoP watch you got and great pics!


----------



## OutOfSpec

sleepyhead123 said:


> I bet it'll be sent back to Japan. It's a niche watch and movement. It's probably not worth training people in the US to do it, especially given the relatively low number of "service priced" watches Citizen sells here and the large number they sell in Japan. That'll probably be a good thing. Japanese are generally anal retentive about detail and you'll probably be good about damage.
> 
> You could view it as a quirk to your unique LE. Or you can get it fixed. It's up to your mentality.


Citizen Customer Service online can't tell me if it will go back to Japan or not. However, I'm not surprised that their frontline people wouldn't know. I would feel more comfortable if it went back to Japan. Thanks for your opinion. I'm not sure what I'll do yet.


----------



## OutOfSpec

gaijin said:


> No question, I would definitely send that watch back for service on the dial and hands - quite frankly, it does not look like a new watch...
> 
> HTH


Thanks. Outside of the scratch, it looks clean. I think the rest of any visual imperfections may be a result of debris on the outside of the crystal at the time that I took the photo. The scratch is definitely bugging me, but I'm still teetering on a decision as I don't want it back in even worse shape - or, heaven forbid, lost in transit! Also, The Citizen Store recommends that I deal directly with Citizen Customer Service in Torrance and send it in myself, but they have also offered to send it in for me. I wonder if the store will insure the watch or shipping if it gets lost...


----------



## ghariyaan

OutOfSpec said:


> I took the leap and made a huge acquisition (for me). Yes, I got one of the Ti LE Caliber 0100's - aq6021-51e! It is very, very impressive, for all the reasons as others have noted above, and, outside of a GS 9F at some point in the distant future, this could be it for major acquisitions.
> 
> However, after living with the watch for a few days, I noticed that there is a small scratch on the minute hand about two thirds of the way up the hand. It is visible to the naked eye at certain angles. I have posted a few images of the scratch here:
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/wOxTGti
> 
> 
> Outside of that scratch, the watch looks flawless. I contacted the Citizen Flagship Store in Times Square (where I made the purchase) and they tell me that Citizen is willing to remedy it. Replacing the entire watch with an alternate is not an option, as this LE is almost gone. I want to keep this reference in my collection. However, I am concerned about sending the watch back to Citizen. I've read about the various horror stories at service centers (especially Seiko), and the idea that the watch could come back in worse condition is gnawing at me. I don't know if the watch would be sent back to Japan or repaired in Torrance, CA, but I guess I could find out. I'm torn between living with the scratch on the minute hand and knowing how much I paid and that the flaw is there or getting it fixed and risking other damage. So my questions: if it were you, would you live with it the way it is or would you send it in for service?
> 
> Thanks!


Are you sure that's the only scratch? I can't tell if along the length of the hand there are more scratches, or if those are smudges on the crystal.

I doubt these will get fixed in the US, there are at most 2,000-3,000 watches with these movements in the world (accounting for the JDM stainless steel runs). That sort of rarity would suggest it being cost prohibitive to set up multiple repair centers to service these watches.

You're the one who has to live with the watch, so you have to decide if you can tolerate the scratch.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ghariyaan said:


> Are you sure that's the only scratch? I can't tell if along the length of the hand there are more scratches, or if those are smudges on the crystal.
> 
> I doubt these will get fixed in the US, there are at most 2,000-3,000 watches with these movements in the world (accounting for the JDM stainless steel runs). That sort of rarity would suggest it being cost prohibitive to set up multiple repair centers to service these watches.
> 
> You're the one who has to live with the watch, so you have to decide if you can tolerate the scratch.


If it's a hands replacement, perhaps that wouldn't be necessitate a technician fully trained on servicing the movement. Actually, that's my fear. I would prefer it if they sent it to Japan. I'm afraid someone is going to mar the dial or hands, scratch the case or misalign the hands when replacing it.

Hmm...I'm going to take some more photos and post them here when I can.

Thanks for commenting!


----------



## OutOfSpec

ghariyaan said:


> Are you sure that's the only scratch? I can't tell if along the length of the hand there are more scratches, or if those are smudges on the crystal.
> 
> I doubt these will get fixed in the US, there are at most 2,000-3,000 watches with these movements in the world (accounting for the JDM stainless steel runs). That sort of rarity would suggest it being cost prohibitive to set up multiple repair centers to service these watches.
> 
> You're the one who has to live with the watch, so you have to decide if you can tolerate the scratch.


I looked at the hands through a 4x Behr Loupe and saw a few more scratches on the hands (hour hand too) and very slight burring. However, I don't know if that's fair, or how I feel about it, because only the first scratch is really obviously visible to the naked eye (and it looks much more pronounced under the loupe, of course). Anyhow, I'm leaning towards sending it in for replacement. But, boy, I'm worried that they're going to mess it up or ruin the seconds hand alignment and that's the bread and butter of the watch display on the 0100.

Secondly, what do you all think about sending it in myself (as the Citizen Store encouraged me to do) or sending it in through the shop? With insurance, it's going to cost me about $85 with USPS. I'd like to have the store do it, but I hope they ship it safely.

I'm a bit bummed out.


----------



## ghariyaan

My gut says to let the shipping be the store’s headache. You bought it from them, you’ve brought it back to them to make it right for you, and it’s their problem to figure out how to do that for you. 

But this is just my gut. I’m sorry the watch wasn’t perfect the first time round, I’ve been in your shoes before and I know it sucks.


----------



## OutOfSpec

ghariyaan said:


> My gut says to let the shipping be the store's headache. You bought it from them, you've brought it back to them to make it right for you, and it's their problem to figure out how to do that for you.
> 
> But this is just my gut. I'm sorry the watch wasn't perfect the first time round, I've been in your shoes before and I know it sucks.


Yes, I do agree with you. I have been thinking that the Times Square store should manage it. I'm going to ask them if they will give me some kind of receipt to show that I handed over possession of the watch and I'm paranoid that if it's lost in shipping to Torrance, I'll be out of the money I spent on the watch.

I'm hoping that this will be an uneventful service. We will see.

Thanks for your messages.


----------



## ronalddheld

I would hang on to it for a while, to see if there are any other problems, and check on its performance. If It has to be repaired, bring it back to the Tmes Square store.


----------



## gaijin

OutOfSpec said:


> Secondly, what do you all think about sending it in myself (as the Citizen Store encouraged me to do) or sending it in through the shop? With insurance, it's going to cost me about $85 with USPS. I'd like to have the store do it, but I hope they ship it safely.


As nice as it is to believe the dealer will be some kind of "added insurance" that the repair is handled correctly, that has not been my experience with watch servicing - including Citizen in Torrance.

I strongly recommend you contact Torrance directly and follow their detailed instructions on how to send the watch to them for a warranty repair. They are the experts in this - NOT the dealer.

Further, dealing directly with Torrance, they will be able to provide progress updates to you directly - the dealer would probably not be on top of this kind of follow-up.

HTH


----------



## tomchicago

This is very common. Occurred during hand installation. Held with metal tweezers most likely.

Sometimes you have to hold the hands with metal tweezers rather than Rodico. I can imagine these hands are particularly difficult to install.


----------



## OutOfSpec

gaijin said:


> As nice as it is to believe the dealer will be some kind of "added insurance" that the repair is handled correctly, that has not been my experience with watch servicing - including Citizen in Torrance.
> 
> I strongly recommend you contact Torrance directly and follow their detailed instructions on how to send the watch to them for a warranty repair. They are the experts in this - NOT the dealer.
> 
> Further, dealing directly with Torrance, they will be able to provide progress updates to you directly - the dealer would probably not be on top of this kind of follow-up.
> 
> HTH


I'm divided on this.

I can see the possibility that if I sent it in myself, I might be closer in the line of communication to the service center. I did contact Citizen through their website and was given the same instructions as on their warranty page - just boilerplate to return the watch to them with a "detailed letter" of what is wrong.

My main reason for wanting to have the Citizen store handle the issue is to (hopefully) pass the liability on to them if the watch is lost or stolen in transit (maybe I'm being misguided and I'm not protected). The nightmare scenario is that the watch is lost, damaged or stolen in transit. I've read a report on this forum that USPS doesn't deliver to their address (unbelievable, I know) and if one sends it to them via this method, a delivery exception will occur. Citizen then sends an employee to pick up packages. Further, through a flat rate USPS box, I can only purchase 5K worth of insurance. And, I doubt whether USPS would pay up if it lost /damaged the package. How I would actually prove the watch was in there, I have no idea.

The level of after sales service and individual support from the boutique (too fancy a term for a Citizen store?) is something that is important for a high dollar purchase (at least this watch is a high dollar purchase for someone like me). I guess (?) that rarified brands like Patek, VC, etc. take care of the process of conveyance of of goods to the service center for their clients, if they so choose. I remember when I brought my vintage JLC to send to Switzerland to the JLC boutique. They took care of the shipping and managed all communication with the service center and sent me the repair estimates. For a company like Citizen, that mainly deals with affordable watches, I understand the reality that it is likely too much to expect the same level of service from the store. However, this is a risk that I did not fully appreciate when I made the purchase. Now I'm in a pickle.



tomchicago said:


> This is very common. Occurred during hand installation. Held with metal tweezers most likely.
> 
> Sometimes you have to hold the hands with metal tweezers rather than Rodico. I can imagine these hands are particularly difficult to install.


If memory serves, there are tweezers that are not metal for this purpose, although the hands can still easily be scuffed during this process. Of course, this is a human being performing the operation and failures happen at every level. And, these hands are really highly polished. It's a shame that it wasn't caught in QC.


----------



## tomchicago

plastic/nylon tweezers do not allow sufficient precision for such a job



OutOfSpec said:


> I'm divided on this.
> 
> I can see the possibility that if I sent it in myself, I might be closer in the line of communication to the service center. I did contact Citizen through their website and was given the same instructions as on their warranty page - just boilerplate to return the watch to them with a "detailed letter" of what is wrong.
> 
> My main reason for wanting to have the Citizen store handle the issue is to (hopefully) pass the liability on to them if the watch is lost or stolen in transit (maybe I'm being misguided and I'm not protected). The nightmare scenario is that the watch is lost, damaged or stolen in transit. I've read a report on this forum that USPS doesn't deliver to their address (unbelievable, I know) and if one sends it to them via this method, a delivery exception will occur. Citizen then sends an employee to pick up packages. Further, through a flat rate USPS box, I can only purchase 5K worth of insurance. And, I doubt whether USPS would pay up if it lost /damaged the package. How I would actually prove the watch was in there, I have no idea.
> 
> The level of after sales service and individual support from the boutique (too fancy a term for a Citizen store?) is something that is important for a high dollar purchase (at least this watch is a high dollar purchase for someone like me). I guess (?) that rarified brands like Patek, VC, etc. take care of the process of conveyance of of goods to the service center for their clients, if they so choose. I remember when I brought my vintage JLC to send to Switzerland to the JLC boutique. They took care of the shipping and managed all communication with the service center and sent me the repair estimates. For a company like Citizen, that mainly deals with affordable watches, I understand the reality that it is likely too much to expect the same level of service from the store. However, this is a risk that I did not fully appreciate when I made the purchase. Now I'm in a pickle.
> 
> If memory serves, there are tweezers that are not metal for this purpose, although the hands can still easily be scuffed during this process. Of course, this is a human being performing the operation and failures happen at every level. And, these hands are really highly polished. It's a shame that it wasn't caught in QC.


----------



## gaijin

OutOfSpec said:


> My main reason for wanting to have the Citizen store handle the issue is to (hopefully) pass the liability on to them if the watch is lost or stolen in transit (maybe I'm being misguided and I'm not protected). The nightmare scenario is that the watch is lost, damaged or stolen in transit. I've read a report on this forum that USPS doesn't deliver to their address (unbelievable, I know) and if one sends it to them via this method, a delivery exception will occur. Citizen then sends an employee to pick up packages. Further, through a flat rate USPS box, I can only purchase 5K worth of insurance. And, I doubt whether USPS would pay up if it lost /damaged the package. How I would actually prove the watch was in there, I have no idea.


From the Citizen site:

_If you live in the United States, we recommend you send your watch via insured carrier to our Torrance, CA facility as this location is better equipped to handle large volumes of repairs and inquiries. Package your timepiece in a sturdy container with sufficient padding to protect your watch during transit. All shipping containers and packing materials are discarded upon receipt. As such, please do not use any containers and/or materials you wish returned.

Address your package to:
COA
Attn: Customer Service
1000 W 190th St
Dept R
Torrance, CA 90502-1040_

I don't know why you would want to send your watch in a flat rate USPS box and limit yourself to 5K insurance, but when I sent my solid 18k Gold Rolex in for service to Rolex I sent it by Registered mail and insured it for 25K - no reason you couldn't do the same.

When I sent my Citizen to Torrance for service, I sent it to the address on their site by Certified Mail / Return Receipt. There was no "delivery exception" or transfer to some other address.

Before you go sending your watch off to anybody, I strongly suggest you CALL Citizen ((800) 321-1023) and talk to someone. Be specific about the watch you want repaired under warranty, its value, and your concerns - not just about the watch and the repairs, but shipping/insurance back and forth. If they don't give you the answers you need to feel comfortable, then go to your dealer and ask them the same questions.

HTH


----------



## sleepyhead123

gaijin said:


> From the Citizen site:
> 
> _If you live in the United States, we recommend you send your watch via insured carrier to our Torrance, CA facility as this location is better equipped to handle large volumes of repairs and inquiries. Package your timepiece in a sturdy container with sufficient padding to protect your watch during transit. All shipping containers and packing materials are discarded upon receipt. As such, please do not use any containers and/or materials you wish returned.
> 
> Address your package to:
> COA
> Attn: Customer Service
> 1000 W 190th St
> Dept R
> Torrance, CA 90502-1040_
> 
> I don't know why you would want to send your watch in a flat rate USPS box and limit yourself to 5K insurance, but when I sent my solid 18k Gold Rolex in for service to Rolex I sent it by Registered mail and insured it for 25K - no reason you couldn't do the same.
> 
> When I sent my Citizen to Torrance for service, I sent it to the address on their site by Certified Mail / Return Receipt. There was no "delivery exception" or transfer to some other address.
> 
> Before you go sending your watch off to anybody, I strongly suggest you CALL Citizen ((800) 321-1023) and talk to someone. Be specific about the watch you want repaired under warranty, its value, and your concerns - not just about the watch and the repairs, but shipping/insurance back and forth. If they don't give you the answers you need to feel comfortable, then go to your dealer and ask them the same questions.
> 
> HTH


All this makes me really cherish Swatch servicing. I've been spoiled by then. All you do is ask Longines or Omega about a service and they send you a box with all the packaging and Fedex label. You put the watch in the foam box with the watch cutout for it to fit in, affix the priority Fedex label that Swatch pays for, give it to Fedex, and you're on your way. Bulgari and Rolex didn't understand when I asked them if they would mail me a box to send my watch in.

What's even better, Longines will send you any parts they replace. Which while useless, is nice to keep track of what's new and old in the watch.


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## Barbababa

@OutOfSpec Go to your store and take pictures with the salesperson (of the watch) who will send it, make sure you both agree on every scratch and mark so you can look at the watch together when it comes back... If it was me I would prefer a new watch from the store and make them send it back or what ever... It´s very strange on a new watch of this caliber to have scratches on the hands, never heard of anything like this before... Good luck!


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## Motorcityjoe

Insure it and send it back to Japan by any means necessary.


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## OutOfSpec

I decided that I am going to send it back via the Times Square store. I like the idea that I will get a receipt that they have received the watch from me directly and are sending it back. @gaijin I appreciate your opinion about sending it directly to Torrance and sharing your experience. I hope I am not making a mistake. We will see. I will be brining it back on Friday.


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## gaijin

OutOfSpec said:


> I decided that I am going to send it back via the Times Square store. I like the idea that I will get a receipt that they have received the watch from me directly and are sending it back. @gaijin I appreciate your opinion about sending it directly to Torrance and sharing your experience. I hope I am not making a mistake. We will see. I will be brining it back on Friday.


I hope it all works out to your satisfaction, it's a beautiful (and significant) watch that deserves to start out in flawless condition. Keep us posted - shared experiences like this are always helpful.


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## OutOfSpec

gaijin said:


> I hope it all works out to your satisfaction, it's a beautiful (and significant) watch that deserves to start out in flawless condition. Keep us posted - shared experiences like this are always helpful.


Thanks very much. I'll definitely update this thread with the (hopefully good) news about how this turns out.


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## SolarPower

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks very much. I'll definitely update this thread with the (hopefully good) news about how this turns out.


Or depending on your purchasing situation you might be eligible for just returning your watch to Citizen for full refund and then buy a new one. To be honest my experience with Citizen USA, unfortunately, was far from being perfect. The packaging of the watch when they shipped it to me new was a mess. I let them know and hope they fixed whatever the issue they had and now it is fine.

However, I suggest you talk about your watch directly with Japan at [email protected]


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## OutOfSpec

My 0100 returned to Torrance for final quality control from Japan last week and was shipped to New York this week. I was surprised to learn that Citizen is shipping it back to the Times Square store via UPS ground. The transit time from California will be one week. 

Perhaps I'm off the mark, but I believe that this watch should have been sent in an expedited manner, for instance: one or two day delivery. While the watch would have arrived faster with such a shipping method, the primary reason why it should have been sent this way is for safety -- to limit exposure to the damage of transit by shortening the time of transit. 

This particular watch is an uncommonly expensive model for Citizen and is one of Citizen's premier watches. I would have hoped that Citizen would have recognized this and would have shipped it in a manner commensurate to its pedigree. 

Maybe I'm being unrealistic. I don't own other expensive watches purchased from the manufacturer and am not familiar with their shipping practices. Still, even though I think the 0100 is an excellent proposition, the level of service from Citizen may not match the quality of the specific timepiece.

I hope it gets back to NYC without incident!


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## ronalddheld

OutOfSpec said:


> My 0100 returned to Torrance for final quality control from Japan last week and was shipped to New York this week. I was surprised to learn that Citizen is shipping it back to the Times Square store via UPS ground. The transit time from California will be one week.
> 
> Perhaps I'm off the mark, but I believe that this watch should have been sent in an expedited manner, for instance: one or two day delivery. While the watch would have arrived faster with such a shipping method, the primary reason why it should have been sent this way is for safety -- to limit exposure to the damage of transit by shortening the time of transit.
> 
> This particular watch is an uncommonly expensive model for Citizen and is one of Citizen's premier watches. I would have hoped that Citizen would have recognized this and would have shipped it in a manner commensurate to its pedigree.
> 
> Maybe I'm being unrealistic. I don't own other expensive watches purchased from the manufacturer and am not familiar with their shipping practices. Still, even though I think the 0100 is an excellent proposition, the level of service from Citizen may not match the quality of the specific timepiece.
> 
> I hope it gets back to NYC without incident!


Why should Citizen spend any more than necessary on shipping if it is insured?


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## OutOfSpec

ronalddheld said:


> Why should Citizen spend any more than necessary on shipping if it is insured?


I'm speculating that a week of ground shipping would increase the opportunity of rough handling. While the package is insured, it would be more hassle for their end customer should the watch then experience further damage requiring further remediation. Since it appears to be common for some other watch businesses to provide prepaid express mail slips to customers when sending in their watches, perhaps such shipping is not too much to ask.

Anyhow, this is just my speculation, and I certainly hope my watch returns via its ground shipping journey without incident.


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## OutOfSpec

Update: I picked up the 0100 at the NYC store on Wednesday. When I got it home, I noticed that the minute hand was still damaged. It had very small burs and flashing on one side of the minute hand and scratching on top. See attached. While these defects are, admittedly, small, they can be seen by the naked eye under direct spotlight. I contacted Citizen, and I am returning the watch to the Times Square store. They will, yet again, send the watch to Torrance and on to Japan for hands replacement.


So all in all, I first returned the watch to Citizen in early July. The watch spent three months sitting in their Torrance facility until being shipped to Japan in October. It was in Japan a month before being serviced. I was told that the watch underwent quality control in Japan and again upon returning to Torrance. I find it unfortunate and odd that their quality control process could miss such flaws a second time. Especially with such a notable model. Also, when I got the watch back, it was off by 15 seconds and the minute hand was not properly aligned with the minute markers. Yes, 15 seconds is not such a big deal, but given that this is the 0100, I did expect it to be returned perfectly timed.

We will see how long It takes them to fix the watch this time.


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## ronalddheld

OutOfSpec said:


> Update: I picked up the 0100 at the NYC store on Wednesday. When I got it home, I noticed that the minute hand was still damaged. It had very small burs and flashing on one side of the minute hand and scratching on top. See attached. While these defects are, admittedly, small, they can be seen by the naked eye under direct spotlight. I contacted Citizen, and I am returning the watch to the Times Square store. They will, yet again, send the watch to Torrance and on to Japan for hands replacement.
> 
> 
> So all in all, I first returned the watch to Citizen in early July. The watch spent three months sitting in their Torrance facility until being shipped to Japan in October. It was in Japan a month before being serviced. I was told that the watch underwent quality control in Japan and again upon returning to Torrance. I find it unfortunate and odd that their quality control process could miss such flaws a second time. Especially with such a notable model. Also, when I got the watch back, it was off by 15 seconds and the minute hand was not properly aligned with the minute markers. Yes, 15 seconds is not such a big deal, but given that this is the 0100, I did expect it to be returned perfectly timed.
> 
> We will see how long It takes them to fix the watch this time.


is this bad news for any of us who will return their 0100s for mantainance?


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## OutOfSpec

ronalddheld said:


> is this bad news for any of us who will return their 0100s for mantainance?


Let's hope yours doesn't need maintenance for a long time...


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## sleepyhead123

Just an update in case people are still wondering. 7 months in, still dead on. I'd say that's pretty good. Even wore it in ocean storm situations and it held up. Though I'm guessing Citizen would not recommend that.


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## gangrel

Was on chrono24 the other day. AQ6100 happened to be cached on that browser, apparently, as some popped up.

There are some starting to show up used for notably under retail...mid 4K range, from dealers rather than private sellers. These are the blue dial/stainless models. They're used, but hey... Just tossing it out there. The dial pics are a LOT better than the renders on Citizen's listing.


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## ghariyaan

sleepyhead123 said:


> Just an update in case people are still wondering. 7 months in, still dead on. I'd say that's pretty good. Even wore it in ocean storm situations and it held up. Though I'm guessing Citizen would not recommend that.


Mine hadn’t lost a second in about six months, or to be more precise, in 15,842,047 seconds. I’m about five months away from a full year.


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## ghariyaan

OutOfSpec said:


> Update: I picked up the 0100 at the NYC store on Wednesday. When I got it home, I noticed that the minute hand was still damaged. It had very small burs and flashing on one side of the minute hand and scratching on top. See attached. While these defects are, admittedly, small, they can be seen by the naked eye under direct spotlight. I contacted Citizen, and I am returning the watch to the Times Square store. They will, yet again, send the watch to Torrance and on to Japan for hands replacement.
> 
> 
> So all in all, I first returned the watch to Citizen in early July. The watch spent three months sitting in their Torrance facility until being shipped to Japan in October. It was in Japan a month before being serviced. I was told that the watch underwent quality control in Japan and again upon returning to Torrance. I find it unfortunate and odd that their quality control process could miss such flaws a second time. Especially with such a notable model. Also, when I got the watch back, it was off by 15 seconds and the minute hand was not properly aligned with the minute markers. Yes, 15 seconds is not such a big deal, but given that this is the 0100, I did expect it to be returned perfectly timed.
> 
> We will see how long It takes them to fix the watch this time.


Any updates? I hope you have good news to share


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## sleepyhead123

ghariyaan said:


> Mine hadn’t lost a second in about six months, or to be more precise, in 15,842,047 seconds. I’m about five months away from a full year.


Dead on after one year. Talk about boring.


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## gangrel

sleepyhead123 said:


> Dead on after one year. Talk about boring.


Yes, well, you do realize that "may you live with interesting time" is a curse, right?


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## OutOfSpec

ghariyaan said:


> Any updates? I hope you have good news to share


Yes! Thanks for asking. The 0100 LE finally came back in March. I'm satisfied with the hands replacement (third time's the charm), and I am enjoying this amazing watch. It's been perfectly accurate ever since I set it upon its return (note: if you send in your 0100 for service, it will likely not come back displaying accurate time. I think this is a missed opportunity for Citizen Service). 

Beyond the amazing achievement that is the caliber 0100 movement, I find the aesthetic design of this watch to be of singular and superior beauty. Pictures don't do it justice. I feel lucky to have been able to obtain this timepiece.


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## ronalddheld

I suppose Citizen never thought of using a precise frequency standard to reset the watch's time after servicing?


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## OutOfSpec

For those who know more about the caliber 0100 than me:

Is it plausible that the reason there is currently not a version of the 0100 with a date / perpetual calendar function is because Citizen has not solved for getting power to that function in conjunction with the AT cut quartz oscillator that, as I understand it, consumers more power than a standard cut quartz oscillator?


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## gangrel

Possible, but doesn't seem altogether likely. The power shouldn't be a factor. Making room in the movement, OTOH...that might be a problem. I don't know, but that feels like a better explanation than power issues. 

Another possibility...they chose to implement only the bare essentials in the 0100. There were enough technical issues to tackle as it was.


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## sleepyhead123

OutOfSpec said:


> For those who know more about the caliber 0100 than me:
> 
> Is it plausible that the reason there is currently not a version of the 0100 with a date / perpetual calendar function is because Citizen has not solved for getting power to that function in conjunction with the AT cut quartz oscillator that, as I understand it, consumers more power than a standard cut quartz oscillator?


Given how much it costs and how few people are willing to pay that much for a Citizen, I suspect they realize adding more functions would further reduce sales. Not to mention increase size and while it is not the big selling factor, it's (relatively) small size makes it stand out.


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## DaveM

gangrel said:


> Power shouldn't be a factor. Making room in the movement, OTOH...that might be a problem.
> Another possibility...they chose to implement only the bare essentials in the 0100. There were enough technical issues to tackle as it was.





sleepyhead123 said:


> Given how much it costs and how few people are willing to pay that much for a Citizen, I suspect they realize adding more functions would further reduce sales. Not to mention increase size and while it is not the big selling factor, it's (relatively) small size makes it stand out.


I think that no-date improves the watch. It leaves 

More space
More power
So that the time-keeping function can be implemented to the highest possible standard.
But the biggest advantage is that it allows the dial to be

Simple
Elegant
What a contrast to some 'complications' watches where it is almost impossible to read time because of all the bs !


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## OutOfSpec

sleepyhead123 said:


> Given how much it costs and how few people are willing to pay that much for a Citizen, I suspect they realize adding more functions would further reduce sales. Not to mention increase size and while it is not the big selling factor, it's (relatively) small size makes it stand out.


Is the market for a 0100 significantly smaller than for a Chronomaster? Those have the date complication. 

Regarding my original question, in the abstract, maybe there isn't the technical capability to do it at present if there are novel power constraints given the AT cut quartz oscillator power consumption...


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## gangrel

How much would adding a perpetual calendar add to a quartz watch's power consumption? It adds some programming logic, but that should be effectively zero power required. The core already is there.

Advancing a date wheel needs power, sure...but, it's once a day. It can't be adding to the overall power requirements.

You DO need a date wheel, or equivalent, and a motor. Those require space. Is that an issue? Not sure, but it's a reasonable hypothesis.

The 0100 is roughly double the cost of the 5 SPY movements. That alone says the market's much smaller. 5 SPY is overkill to begin with; selling 1 SPY, for the major cost increase, is HARD. We're interested because we're the weirdo time-techy geeky people...or gadget lovers, or innovation lovers. Accuracy for accuracy's sake is Not Normal. I'd actually love to see how a solar quartz that's COSC-level (25 SPY), with 38 and 41 mm models, offered up in...oh, how about the classic packages? Deck/marine, pilot, field. Integrated sports...I'd think a solar watch could do the tapisserie dial of the mechanical Tissot PRXs readily. Or the classic GADA, similar to the Explorer, Sinn 556a, etc. In the $500-$750 range. I think they'd do extremely well, greatly outselling 9Fs and The Citizens.

The root of the problem is that most manufacturers don't want to see it happen, IMO. It would become much harder to sell almost anything below the haute horlogerie level.


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## haq-f91w

gangrel said:


> I'd actually love to see how a solar quartz that's COSC-level (25 SPY), with 38 and 41 mm models, offered up in...oh, how about the classic packages? Deck/marine, pilot, field. Integrated sports...I'd think a solar watch could do the tapisserie dial of the mechanical Tissot PRXs readily. Or the classic GADA, similar to the Explorer, Sinn 556a, etc. In the $500-$750 range. I think they'd do extremely well, greatly outselling 9Fs and The Citizens.


Solar + IAHH + perpetual calendar precidrive Tissot/Certina using 1. 36 and 40mm PR100 and PRX cases; 2. 38 and 42mm Seastar 1000 cases; 3. 38 and 42mm DS-2 chrono cases. Count me in for any of those, even if they're not solar.



gangrel said:


> The root of the problem is that most manufacturers don't want to see it happen, IMO. It would become much harder to sell almost anything below the haute horlogerie level.


I agree. Once they sold the idea that mechanical is for _real_ watches, nearly every quartz is made equal, even though some are more equal than others.


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