# What is most affordable HAQ watch out there?



## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

del


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

wrest said:


> There's quite cheap Technochas digital watches that have digital rate correction feature, _configured by a user_. That corrects daily rate down to 0.1 to 0.05 seconds a day (37 to 18 seconds a year), but those whatches don't have any thermocompensation. So that watch will keep good time if constantly worn (thus kept at stable temp provided by the highly thermal stable human body). Price is about $40.
> 
> What's the start price for new thermocompensated watch, what about day-date?
> Is there any watch (except those soviet-era Technochas) where user can input rate correction?
> It there any on aliexpress?


Some of your answers can be found by searching in this forum.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

ronalddheld said:


> Some of your answers can be found by searching in this forum.


Ron I know it's kind of your go to line, some variation of use the search function. Please stop doing it. The search function is not the answer to most any question. It's not appropriate in normal interactions with anybody in person or on a forum. If you don't think so give that response to your girlfriend, wife, kid, or coworker next time they ask you a question. It's insulting.

Worse yet the search function in this and most cases is about as useful as hands on a t-rex. A search of Technochros yields 5 old results and none of them answer OP's question. A search for "affordable haq" yields 1 result with two year old info. A lot of models no longer exist, and considering your sticky on what is HAQ I'm not sure what qualifies now. But you can clarify this as I reply to OP.

OP, watches like the Technochros tend to be problematic in trying to achieve high accuracy. Typically you will need to have some pretty accurate means to measure your changes, if you don't the changes you measure are so small, the error in measurement means you will spend a lot of time chasing accuracy. You can minimize this by waiting longer between measurements, but that means it will take a while to dial it in. Than once you achieve it not sure if the watch will maintain it.

Now my go to recomendation would be a Bulova, most of them perform at under 20spy and well within COSC, but pricing in different markets means they may be more expensive in your region. Not sure if they are a bargain in eastern Europe, and not sure if they qualify here anymore.

Next would be a Certina, but again not sure about pricing around you and they now are "only" COSC, again not sure if they qualify here. The entire Precidrive line stands by 8 to 10 times better than a standard quartz watch, and Breitling also stands by 10 times better, so again neither brand is a 10spy watch.

That leaves you with the Longines VHP, as the cheapest option, at around 1000 euro's pretty much everywhere, but the US where they are cheaper. After that you have Citizen and Seiko which are at least twice as expensive.

Hope this helps you out OP.


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## yankeexpress (Apr 7, 2013)

The various color versions of these excellent HAQ can be found New severely discounted for thorough shoppers


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

wbird said:


> Ron I know it's kind of your go to line, some variation of use the search function. Please stop doing it. The search function is not the answer to most any question. It's not appropriate in normal interactions with anybody in person or on a forum. If you don't think so give that response to your girlfriend, wife, kid, or coworker next time they ask you a question. It's insulting...


Advising of the usage of the search function of HAQ is the best advise any new visitor of the HAQ forum should receive! 
Searching in the database of the HAQ forum is educating and fun at the same time and certainly the best way to avoid any unnecessary question/inquiry.


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## farmerboy (Jul 23, 2018)

Often when I search on this forum I will get a zero info. notice. 
Many times if I go right back and use the very same words I will then get multiple links.

I use a Mac. This happens regardless of if I have cleared my computer of all stored info or not.
I can reset everything and it makes no difference. Early on I asked several already answered questions because I found zero information.
Now, I do a search at least twice in a row and most times get at least some hits.

I do not know if it is this website or my computer that causes this. To help the OP, Joma has Bulova Lunar Pilot for $299.


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## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

farmerboy said:


> Often when I search on this forum I will get a zero info. notice.
> Many times if I go right back and use the very same words I will then get multiple links.
> 
> I use a Mac. This happens regardless of if I have cleared my computer of all stored info or not.
> ...


Same thing for me with a PC. Type in a word and search and get nothing. Type in the same exact word again then I get hits. Been like this as long as I can remember.


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## kcotham (Jun 21, 2018)

Yup, the search function is basically useless. 

To answer your question, you can't go wrong with a Bulova. The 262Hz movements are great. I've owned three of them, still have two. They are never off much at all when it comes time to switch from MST to MDT and back (which I wish would end, just stay on standard time for crying out loud!). And you can pick up a very handsome model for around $200, some times less.


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

Seiko SACM171 uses an 8j41 movement rated for 10 seconds per year.


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## woodville63 (Dec 28, 2011)

I tend to use Google site search. As the question concerns price I limited it to the last 6 months, https://www.google.com/search?q=che...=cdr:1,cd_min:4/1/2019,cd_max:10/20/2019&tbm=

More results using affordable instead of cheap, https://www.google.com/search?lr=&h...hUKEwiw-vGm5KnlAhWJF3IKHeURClsQ4dUDCAs&uact=5

I guess we don't like to think of ourselves as cheap.:-d

EDIT. There's a Certina DS-2 Precidrive on F29.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

What made OP's question a little different than most is that he is in Moscow Russia, not sure the taxes/duties he faces. Is Joma or any of the US or Japanese GM sellers an option? I know Certina has strong presence in Russia, not sure if their prices are higher there.

He also has to consider how willing WUS members are willing to ship internationally especially to Russia.

Hopefully OP will come back and share some info.


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

wbird said:


> OP, watches like the Technochros tend to be problematic in trying to achieve high accuracy. Typically you will need to have some pretty accurate means to measure your changes, if you don't the changes you measure are so small, the error in measurement means you will spend a lot of time chasing accuracy. You can minimize this by waiting longer between measurements, but that means it will take a while to dial it in. Than once you achieve it not sure if the watch will maintain it.


That's (waiting some time to measure) not a problem at all for me 
I have just posted an update to video method that gives an accuracy of about 1 spy measuring a watch two times in 10 days period: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752-5.html#post50099355
Of course, there's no guarantee that watch maintains accuracy being rate corrected to zero. Moreover, I do see that digital watch rate deviates about 0.1 spd being put on wrist (rate slowers about 0.1 seconds per day with about 10 degrees centigrade tempreture difference between a shelf and a wrist). But being put on the wrist, watch becames thermostabilized down to +/-1 degrees centigrade so thermocompensation is not needed anymore (while the watch sits on the wrist, of course).

Saying the above, I don't consider watch where user can configure rate, as "true" HAQ watch (but still quite close to it), but I'm very much suprised there's no such a watch exists except those by Technochas. By the way, I did have such a watch when I was a kid, in 1985 or so.



wbird said:


> That leaves you with the Longines VHP


Well, Longines (and also Breitling, Certina etc.) are definitely not among most affordable brands 
As far as I'm not watch obsessed (in general and specifically HAQ), but having HAQ would be goog, I asked for most affordable. Perhaps for some microbrand, or china made noname. Maybe the time just hasn't come.


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

wbird said:


> What made OP's question a little different than most is that he is in Moscow Russia, not sure the taxes/duties he faces. Is Joma or any of the US or Japanese GM sellers an option? I know Certina has strong presence in Russia, not sure if their prices are higher there.
> 
> He also has to consider how willing WUS members are willing to ship internationally especially to Russia.
> 
> Hopefully OP will come back and share some info.


Jomashop, dutyfreeislandshop and sellers like that are quite popular source for those watch obsessed people. 
Russians currently don't pay taxes for customs value below 500 euros per month (and pay 30% tax for value portion that exceeds 500 euros).

Also, there is "market" section on watch.ru forum with new and preowned staff, so geography doesn't play significant role.


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

wrest said:


> That's (waiting some time to measure) not a problem at all for me
> I have just posted an update to video method that gives an accuracy of about 1 spy measuring a watch two times in 10 days period: https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/methods-determining-accuracy-watch-382752-5.html#post50099355
> Of course, there's no guarantee that watch maintains accuracy being rate corrected to zero. Moreover, I do see that digital watch rate deviates about 0.1 spd being put on wrist (rate slowers about 0.1 seconds per day with about 10 degrees centigrade tempreture difference between a shelf and a wrist). But being put on the wrist, watch becames thermostabilized down to +/-1 degrees centigrade so thermocompensation is not needed anymore (while the watch sits on the wrist, of course).
> 
> ...


All good, the options I gave were based on the sticky Ron posted stating 10spy as the new norm. Oddly someone posted a COSC watch with rave reviews so who knows, guess 20+spy is okay here after all. But that aside, don't know any microbrands putting any time into this tech.

Casio, from what I've heard makes an adjustable watch like the Technochas also. You'll have to go over to Casio forums to get more info, if you're interested.

The Seiko that John mentioned can be had pretty cheap, but bear in mind its a 33.5mm case and the band can fit a 17.5cm wrist max. Bulova's tend to be on the bigger side, but again are pretty accurate and are relatively low priced.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

wbird said:


> All good, the options I gave were based on the sticky Ron posted stating 10spy as the new norm. Oddly someone posted a COSC watch with rave reviews so who knows, guess 20+spy is okay here after all...


Well, you'd be better to read this (post #4 of the link) to learn why Ron's definition is not working and what would be the proper standard for HAQ in this forum:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/sort-haq-question-5042575.html


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

Wow, you guys just had a flame around HAQ definition...
Number 10 has got only 2 nontrivial divisors while number 12 has twice as that. 1spm=3spq=12spy  Next good (superabundant) number is 24.

Okay, I understood that Bulova is the cheapest for now.

By the way, is there digital HAQ?

Analog watch (hands and motors) require complex (=expensive) design to keep track of hands position, preventing magnetic field step motor blockage consequences, while digital do not.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Only digital watch would be the Apple Watch, AFAIK.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Tissot PR100 with precidrive COSC and the new Tissot Genleman with precidrive looks like good value (like the Certina). If it´s only cheap you want I am sure you can find cheaper, but with overall good value an looks Tissot and Certina are very nice.


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

Barbababa said:


> Tissot PR100 with precidrive COSC and the new Tissot Genleman with precidrive looks like good value (like the Certina). If it´s only cheap you want I am sure you can find cheaper, but with overall good value an looks Tissot and Certina are very nice.


Which model of Gentleman are you talking about? I see 3: Swissmatic, quartz, and Powermatic 80 versions. The quartz model is using an F06.115 and that is not Precidrive. A bit more digging...all models that are COSC certified are mechanicals. Checking the quartz...doesn't look like it. Several different movements being used...lots of F06.11x's, a smattering of other, older movements. The chronographs I checked were G10.211's...which is a discontinued movement according to both WatchBase and Caliber Corner. The Excellence has a solid gold case...and a tiny barrel-shaped movement that is their higher-end, brass line (Normflatline) but is not PreciDrive.


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## ReallyBored (Dec 19, 2018)

wrest said:


> Jomashop, dutyfreeislandshop and sellers like that are quite popular source for those watch obsessed people.
> Russians currently don't pay taxes for customs value below 500 euros per month (and pay 30% tax for value portion that exceeds 500 euros).


If Jomashop ships to Russia, then the OP might want to seriously consider the discontinued Tissot PR100 COSC, which is only $159 USD. It's F06.411 is thermocompensated. Mine has gained a bit more than +8 seconds since the time change last March, so it's not on pace for Ron's 10spd standard, more likely 13-14 spd. The Bulova 262kHz are also nice, especially the 3-handers, but the bargain prices seem to be drying up.

https://www.jomashop.com/tissot-watch-t1014511105100.html


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

ReallyBored said:


> ...It's F06.411 is thermocompensated. Mine has gained a bit more than +8 seconds since the time change last March, so it's not on pace for Ron's 10spy standard, more likely 13-14 spd. The Bulova 262kHz are also nice, especially the 3-handers, but the bargain prices seem to be drying up...


Now, either Ron's 10spy standard is useless or you guys are seriously off topic here... One or the other... I know the right answer. Do you, guys, know it? How about Ron?;-)


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

I beleive compromise value would be 12 spy


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

ReallyBored said:


> OP might want to seriously consider the discontinued Tissot PR100 COSC, which is only $159 USD. It's F06.411 is thermocompensated.


Thank you. I do have some Tissot watch (mechanical 2836-2 movement) that looks quite similar, so this PR100 doesn't fit. But the price is close to what I think it should be. And I think that I would seriosly consider buying a HAQ watch if it is in $100 range and displays day-date. From the topic I coclude that this price today means a watch should be digital or anadigi. And it also means it should be from China, as swiss\japan juwellery cannot cost that small.


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## Barbababa (Jan 6, 2019)

Sorry, The Gentleman have HeavyDrive, I was missinformed. The PR100 T101.451.11.051.00 is COSC quartz with precidrive F06.411.


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## ppaulusz (Feb 11, 2006)

wrest said:


> I beleive compromise value would be 12 spy


Wrong answer, sorry!


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

Barbababa said:


> Sorry, The Gentleman have HeavyDrive, I was missinformed. The PR100 T101.451.11.051.00 is COSC quartz with precidrive F06.411.


It's also discontinued.



> Thank you. I do have some Tissot watch (mechanical 2836-2 movement) that looks quite similar, so this PR100 doesn't fit. But the price is close to what I think it should be. And I think that I would seriosly consider buying a HAQ watch if it is in $100 range and displays day-date. From the topic I coclude that this price today means a watch should be digital or anadigi. And it also means it should be from China, as swiss\japan juwellery cannot cost that small.


There's some Casio analog 3-handers for $12 on Amazon. Resin case, resin strap, throwaway pieces. Not bad looking...35 mm size, quite reasonable school kid's watch.

But if you want decent parts, it's gonna cost you. COSC-level or better accuracy is gonna cost, because more attention has to be paid to the movement and the crystal itself.

Now, if the point is that the movement really shouldn't be that much more? It'd be nice, but saying "it should be cheap" is unreasonable.


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

gangrel said:


> It's also discontinued.
> 
> There's some Casio analog 3-handers for $12 on Amazon. Resin case, resin strap, throwaway pieces. Not bad looking...35 mm size, quite reasonable school kid's watch.
> 
> But if you want decent parts, it's gonna cost you. COSC-level or better accuracy is gonna cost, because more attention has to be paid to the movement and the crystal itself.


Well, I do agree wirh "gonna cost".
It would be nice to have $100 HAQ watch (and digital is cheaper to build), but if that's not possible on today tech level, or makers don't see enough demand, I'm okay with that.


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## wrest (Apr 9, 2019)

gangrel said:


> saying "it should be cheap" is unreasonable.


I didn't say it, did I?


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## John MS (Mar 17, 2006)

wrest said:


> Well, I do agree wirh "gonna cost".
> It would be nice to have $100 HAQ watch (and digital is cheaper to build), but if that's not possible on today tech level, or makers don't see enough demand, I'm okay with that.


I think it's possible. But demand for an inexpensive haq is probably not there. Watch companies seem to be doing much better pairing well made haq movements with equally nice cases, dials, etc. The Pulsar PSR 10 sold initially for just under $100 and it was closed out for about 30% of original price at a variety of discounters including Costco.


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## SamRHughes (Nov 6, 2017)

So is anything below the PR 100 at $159 right now?


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Sure there are a few Bulova's if all you care about is price.


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## dumpweed (Dec 21, 2013)

SamRHughes said:


> So is anything below the PR 100 at $159 right now?


Ashford has Calvin Klein City watches starting at $40, for example: K2G2G6C3
I believe they are equipped with ETA f07.411 movement.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

dumpweed said:


> Ashford has Calvin Klein City watches starting at $40, for example: K2G2G6C3
> I believe they are equipped with ETA f07.411 movement.


Data entry on the Ashford website is a bit spotty. Another CK CIty Watch is listed as f07.401. Who knows what's in there?


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## dumpweed (Dec 21, 2013)

OutOfSpec said:


> Data entry on the Ashford website is a bit spotty. Another CK CIty Watch is listed as f07.401. Who knows what's in there?


You could google Calvin Klein and F07.411, there are some European website has movement info, thanks to this thread:

https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/just-i-assume-fits-haq-criteria-4947451-2.html#post48864829


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

dumpweed said:


> You could google Calvin Klein and F07.411, there are some European website has movement info, thanks to this thread:
> 
> https://www.watchuseek.com/f9/just-i-assume-fits-haq-criteria-4947451-2.html#post48864829


Thanks for that. It's true. That movement is in there. Wow. Why would CK do this? Wouldn't you think that Prescidrive would be more expensive than other quartz and this would raise their cost for producing the watch?


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## dumpweed (Dec 21, 2013)

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks for that. It's true. That movement is in there. Wow. Why would CK do this? Wouldn't you think that Prescidrive would be more expensive than other quartz and this would raise their cost for producing the watch?


I believe it's economy of scale, it might be expensive to develop HAQ movement, but with ETA's volume, the cost could be easily recovered.
Also the cost of IC has came down a lot.

The irony is most watch buyers care more about styling than accuracy.


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## signum8 (May 3, 2018)

Jomashop is having a sale on the Longines VHP models. Just scored a this one +$7

Affordable compared to the $1050 retail and the $832 normal discount.


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## signum8 (May 3, 2018)

Jomashop is having a sale on the Longines VHP models. Just scored a this one +$7 for 2 day shipping.


Affordable compared to the $1050 retail and the $832 normal discount.|>


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

OutOfSpec said:


> Thanks for that. It's true. That movement is in there. Wow. Why would CK do this? Wouldn't you think that Prescidrive would be more expensive than other quartz and this would raise their cost for producing the watch?


The F-series movements are all the entry-level construction. Tissot had a few models with a PreciDrive; Certina has numerous. For very modest prices. So, yeah, OK, maybe it's a few bucks more, but I daresay not that much. Since it's central to Certina's product lineup, the overhead's covered better than with, say, the lower-tier Citizen or Seiko movements.

Plus...who knows. Maybe ETA gives them a bit of a deal so they go ETA instead of Ronda.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

signum8 said:


> Jomashop is having a sale on the Longines VHP models. Just scored a this one +$7 for 2 day shipping.
> 
> Affordable compared to the $1050 retail and the $832 normal discount.|>


Would like Jomashop to stock the smaller "ladies" model, but except for the diamonds version, they don't. Enjoy your VHP!


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

gangrel said:


> The F-series movements are all the entry-level construction. Tissot had a few models with a PreciDrive; Certina has numerous. For very modest prices. So, yeah, OK, maybe it's a few bucks more, but I daresay not that much. Since it's central to Certina's product lineup, the overhead's covered better than with, say, the lower-tier Citizen or Seiko movements.
> 
> Plus...who knows. Maybe ETA gives them a bit of a deal so they go ETA instead of Ronda.


I can see a volume discount for the movement. I'd think that CK would want to have one small line in their advertising about "extremely accurate +-10spy" or something like that. Folks are buying this and they've got HAQ! Not that they care... :/


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## wbird (Feb 25, 2015)

Might want to grab those CK's while you can, Swatch announced they are ending their 2 decade long agreement with CK last year. Not to say those movements won't appear in some other brands, but definately not in any CK's in the future.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

wbird said:


> Might want to grab those CK's while you can, Swatch announced they are ending their 2 decade long agreement with CK last year. Not to say those movements won't appear in some other brands, but definately not in any CK's in the future.


Perhaps if the diameter were 38mm or so, but those are too big. Actually, it seems that unless you go with Grand Seiko or Citizen Chronomaster, it's hard to find a sub 40mm HAQ...


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## gangrel (Jun 25, 2015)

OutOfSpec said:


> I can see a volume discount for the movement. I'd think that CK would want to have one small line in their advertising about "extremely accurate +-10spy" or something like that. Folks are buying this and they've got HAQ! Not that they care... :/


Not likely to be an issue with CK customers. If anything, it might be a turn OFF. Adds confusion. It's quartz, it's accurate. Done. Say more, clutter the issue. CK buyers are NOT thinking of that sort of thing, as you say. So why say it?

If Swatch is ending their association with CK...AND with the fact that they're pulling in the reins as fast as they're allowed to with mechanicals...I doubt it. Hayek doesn't want to supply anyone else, or so it seems. Story from this morning about the deep gouges in the market due to Covid...speculation that 30-60 "Swiss Made" brands will fail. (Apparently, a dozen have already done so, but I can't find out who.) And the higher-end quartz market's getting killed by smart watches anyway, so presumably a fair number of the failing brands may well fall into this niche. You get the sense that Hayek wants them to fail, to thin the competition.

Maybe I'm being cynical...it's been a seriously depressing news day. But Hayek may well be choosing to keep every edge to himself, and that definitely could mean pulling the plug on PreciDrives outside the group.

All that said, why the HECK doesn't Swatch use them *other than* with Certina??? Their group-level marketing is.......less comprehensible than Citizen's.


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

gangrel said:


> Not likely to be an issue with CK customers. If anything, it might be a turn OFF. Adds confusion. It's quartz, it's accurate. Done. Say more, clutter the issue. CK buyers are NOT thinking of that sort of thing, as you say. So why say it?
> 
> If Swatch is ending their association with CK...AND with the fact that they're pulling in the reins as fast as they're allowed to with mechanicals...I doubt it. Hayek doesn't want to supply anyone else, or so it seems. Story from this morning about the deep gouges in the market due to Covid...speculation that 30-60 "Swiss Made" brands will fail. (Apparently, a dozen have already done so, but I can't find out who.) And the higher-end quartz market's getting killed by smart watches anyway, so presumably a fair number of the failing brands may well fall into this niche. You get the sense that Hayek wants them to fail, to thin the competition.
> 
> ...


One would think that they'd plug-in the L288 in the Longines VHP in some of their lines. Perhaps put one in an Omega Seamaster? I do agree about Smart Watches taking the market from high-end quartz. All the proof you need is that there is barely any HAQ to be had in current production :/


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

I suppose I should check Amazon and see if any are going for ~$50.


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## signum8 (May 3, 2018)

OutOfSpec said:


> Would like Jomashop to stock the smaller "ladies" model, but except for the diamonds version, they don't. Enjoy your VHP!


Thank you. Sometimes bargains and what you want do not always intersect on the Venn diagram. Wish you the best getting there.|>


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

signum8 said:


> Thank you. Sometimes bargains and what you want do not always intersect on the Venn diagram. Wish you the best getting there.|>


Yup! I prefer the price of the VHP at $650 (Jomashop) vs. $1,000 (retail)!


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## signum8 (May 3, 2018)

Now I hope I'm not going off track here, but some sellers offer their own warranty. Is the original manufacturers' warranty not any good for some reason?


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## Len1738 (Sep 29, 2015)

yankeexpress said:


> The various color versions of these excellent HAQ can be found New severely discounted for thorough shoppers


+1 I own this watch it is excellent!


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## gaijin (Oct 29, 2007)

signum8 said:


> Now I hope I'm not going off track here, but some sellers offer their own warranty. Is the original manufacturers' warranty not any good for some reason?


Some sellers are selling grey market watches which the manufacturer will not cover under warranty...

HTH


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## OutOfSpec (Mar 11, 2018)

signum8 said:


> Now I hope I'm not going off track here, but some sellers offer their own warranty. Is the original manufacturers' warranty not any good for some reason?


Did you mean grey market sellers? They will usually offer their own warranty. However, that warranty is spotty because who knows what kind of professional will service your watch. The original manufacturer's warranty is better, as if there's an issue, it goes back to the mothership. I think it's a question of the fact that the grey market dealer cannot offer the manufacturer original warranty because they buy their stock from sources (ADs) through alternate means. This means that the official warranty is not available as the official warranty is only distributed through ADs.


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## signum8 (May 3, 2018)

gaijin said:


> Some sellers are selling grey market watches which the manufacturer will not cover under warranty...
> 
> HTH


Indeed it does. I would see these shops in Brooklyn that sold grey market cameras and radios. Good prices and a good deal if you were knowledgeable about the product, and certain name products are built very well, wherever they are from.


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## thorn79 (Oct 2, 2019)

I got the CK one for $60 when I ordered another watch for a gift. I've had it for ~3 weeks and it has not lost any time, it's right on. My Tissot COSC during the same time has gained about 1.25 seconds. My other normal quartz watches are off by 6-10 seconds for the same period.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

We have, on this forum, been over this several times before. Any given example of a non-HAQ watch may be found to have a very high precision - far better than the loosest limits of its factory spec - and yet it would not be of a type that is intended for discussion on this forum. I have several non-HAQ watches and at least one of them (my V158 Seiko Solar) regularly ends each year in hot contention for the title of my most precise watch. We note two key things about non-HAQs such as these:

1. With looser tolerances in the design and manufacture of non-HAQs, actual performance is likely to vary widely. My Seiko Solar V158 may be exceptionally precise, but the next fellow's may push the boundaries of its official +/-15 SPM spec.

2. The technology that drives interest in HAQs is not the pedestrian quartz movement (though I have an interest in those as an entirely separate matter), but rather that which has been designed to perform consistently better than the average quartz watch, independently of any external source and across a wide variety of samples. Many of us have had HAQs that have failed to live up to their promised factory spec, but there's valid discussion for us, there, as we gather a corpus of data about these watches and their manufacturers' claims that few other Internet groups can match.

We could fill the HAQ forum with examples of ordinary watches that have outshone their HAQ brethren, but that would distill the keen focus of this place where for years we have been investigating the inner workings of high frequency, dual mode, dual oscillator and thermistor-based technologies. We have an extensive back catalogue of test data, technical analyses and notes on the historical development of top tier quartz movements from the end of the 1960s to the present day.

I admit that our detailed technical analyses of HAQ movements is not what it used to be. A number of prominent members with remarkable collections, exceptional knowledge and some extraordinary testing set-ups have stopped dropping by, and that is a great shame. In part, some have stopped coming due to the arguments and the repeated attempts to redefine what the HAQ forum is all about. But whilst brands are still investing in new HAQ movements (the VHP, Citizen 0100 and GS's 9F85 come to mind as examples from recent years), then I think it's too early to call time on the forum and start letting in discussion of non-HAQ watches. A good many non-HAQs may be found that will outperform a given example of a COSC-certified HAQ - especially if they are regularly worn or are otherwise kept at a temperature that suits their rudimentary factory rate adjustment perfectly - but there is nothing intrinsically significant in the analysis of non-HAQ outliers.

I don't mean to rant (especially as I fully appreciate the sentiment behind the comparison between an extraordinary non-HAQ and and underwhelming HAQ), and I generally try to keep a positive perspective on things. So, to get us back on track, I would love to know what movement your Tissot COSC has got.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Tom-HK said:


> We have, on this forum, been over this several times before. Any given example of a non-HAQ watch may be found to have a very high precision - far better than the loosest limits of its factory spec - and yet it would not be of a type that is intended for discussion on this forum. I have several non-HAQ watches and at least one of them (my V158 Seiko Solar) regularly ends each year in hot contention for the title of my most precise watch. We note two key things about non-HAQs such as these:
> 
> 1. With looser tolerances in the design and manufacture of non-HAQs, actual performance is likely to vary widely. My Seiko Solar V158 may be exceptionally precise, but the next fellow's may push the boundaries of its official +/-15 SPM spec.
> 
> ...


Well said, Tom.


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## thorn79 (Oct 2, 2019)

Tom-HK said:


> I don't mean to rant (especially as I fully appreciate the sentiment behind the comparison between an extraordinary non-HAQ and and underwhelming HAQ), and I generally try to keep a positive perspective on things. So, to get us back on track, I would love to know what movement your Tissot COSC has got.


The Tissot has the ETA F06.411 movement and the CK has the ETA F07.411 movement.


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

The F06.411 has had mixed reviews, but then again people are probably more inclined to post about their HAQ when it doesn't meet spec than when it does, so there may well be a reporting bias.

I will say it is a shame that ETA doesn't seem to put in as much effort with their 'entry level' HAQ movements as we might expect. I mean, why go to all the effort of adding a thermistor and an oscillator of higher-than-average quality, and then calibrating the set-up to beat COSC specs, but decide to do it all on the cheap so we end up with a slew of reports of watches that fail to hit the magic 10 SPY and play dangerously close to the looser limits of the COSC spec?

When a manufacturer promises 10 SPY (albeit with a ton of caveats) and you are paying extra for that COSC certificate for the (largely imagined) extra assurance of quality, then you expect to be a shoe-in to the 10 SPY Club and it's a bitter pill indeed to realise that some of your cheaper non-HAQs are returning better results. I will repeat, though, that the high-performing non-HAQs are lucky outliers, and if your HAQ is still within COSC spec then we should perhaps celebrate the lucky incidence of the better-than-average non-HAQ, than dwell too deeply on the disappointing HAQ.

If, of course, your COSC-certified watch is not meeting COSC limits (and if it is within warranty), then why not speak to the dealer about it?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

Doesn't better specs mean better Crystal selection and matching electronics? A more fine TC table costs more money, also?


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## Tom-HK (Jan 6, 2015)

ronalddheld said:


> Doesn't better specs mean better Crystal selection and matching electronics? A more fine TC table costs more money, also?


Yes, though I note Citizen's F150 series of non-HAQ watches that are spec'd to +/- 5 SPM. Better crystal selection and a more careful calibration have surely bumped up the price, there, and they've gone and incorporated that native precision into a GPS watch, rather than a thermocompensated model. A brand can choose to spend more time and money to make an intrinsically better movement, or they can compromise and throw together a make-do HAQ at a price point that will see it being more widely adopted.

I fully appreciate ETA's democratisation of the HAQ movement by finding ways to cut costs, but their lower-priced HAQs are, I am told, made in such a way that they are nearly impossible to service. And even amongst their more expensive models they have stopped including rate trimmers and essentially moved towards wholesale movement swaps instead of servicing.

So while it's great that HAQs are now more common and affordable, I worry that expectations are being lowered on both the manufacturer's end and on the consumer's end, and we may be witnessing a gulf starting to emerge between low-cost, 'COSC-capable' models and truly sub-10 SPY HAQs that might cost thousands.


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## thorn79 (Oct 2, 2019)

I am sort of new to watches in a sense. Over the years I had a couple of watches and only got new ones when they broke. Mostly Seiko brand. I bought the Tissot from a grey market seller, before I knew what what the grey market was and before signing up here and researching. I like the watch and even though it is off from what it should be I will keep it. It was 72% off of list price. The seller ran out of them anyway and would probably exchange with another different one.

Where can one buy the equivalent movement? I don't see it listed on ETA's site now or anywhere online for sale. I guess ETA only sells them to the factory?

Too bad they can't be adjusted. I have a older Seiko LCD that I bought in 1982 in Germany that I repaired recently (still get parts!). It has a screw for adjusting the timing. I have it so it's about 1 second fast per week, it's as close as I could get it and rather have it on the fast side. I think I paid around $40 (80DM) then, so it would be around $110 in todays US dollars. Are most Quartz watches not adjustable now a days?



Tom-HK said:


> If, of course, your COSC-certified watch is not meeting COSC limits (and if it is within warranty), then why not speak to the dealer about it?


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

thorn79 said:


> I am sort of new to watches in a sense. Over the years I had a couple of watches and only got new ones when they broke. Mostly Seiko brand. I bought the Tissot from a grey market seller, before I knew what what the grey market was and before signing up here and researching. I like the watch and even though it is off from what it should be I will keep it. It was 72% off of list price. The seller ran out of them anyway and would probably exchange with another different one.
> 
> Where can one buy the equivalent movement? I don't see it listed on ETA's site now or anywhere online for sale. I guess ETA only sells them to the factory?
> 
> Too bad they can't be adjusted. I have a older Seiko LCD that I bought in 1982 in Germany that I repaired recently (still get parts!). It has a screw for adjusting the timing. I have it so it's about 1 second fast per week, it's as close as I could get it and rather have it on the fast side. I think I paid around $40 (80DM) then, so it would be around $110 in todays US dollars. Are most Quartz watches not adjustable now a days?


Thorn, you might getting more responses in PF, as you are not looking for a HAQ movement.


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## thorn79 (Oct 2, 2019)

I thought COSC-certified watches were HAQ?



ronalddheld said:


> Thorn, you might getting more responses in PF, as you are not looking for a HAQ movement.


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## ronalddheld (May 5, 2005)

thorn79 said:


> I thought COSC-certified watches were HAQ?


That was not clear to me. Not certain you can buy movements you want. Do you have a trusted watchmaker who might be able to get one?


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## bombaywalla (Oct 8, 2011)

thorn79 said:


> I thought COSC-certified watches were HAQ?


Strictly speaking they are not. COSC certified quartz is spec'd to +/- 25.2 sec per year. 
In this HAQ forum the guys like to call HAQ +/- 5-10 sec per year.


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