# Ok Seriously - The IWC Ingenieur 3239 (40mm) vs Explorer 1 39mm (214270)



## exoticwatches

Having recently (Jan this year) purchased the *Submariner Ceramic (Ref No. 116610LN)* @ $7750 (retails for $8550) as my first ROLEX watch - Part funded by selling of my Panerai PAM183 which I had bought 4 years back at a handsome profit (am missing that piece also very much now :-d ) - I am now looking to add another "tool luxury" watch to my collection in the next 3 months.

Earlier I was contemplating between the GMT Master 2 and the *Explorer 1 (214270)* *39 mm* but I have now discarded the GMT Master 2 from my consideration. Instead I am now considering the *IWC Ingenieur **3239 (40mm)* automatic.

Now though the IWC Ingenieur 3239 and the Explorer 1 are different watches in their own leagues - different dial size (40mm vs 39mm), date and no-date complications, different heritage ... I am drawn to the Ingenieur IW3239 *BUT* I cannot forget the classic elegance, versatility (formal-informal use) and history of the Explorer 1 also. Plus Rolex watches have a looooooong history of taking a beating and yet offering its users a trouble free time keeping for many years and easy servicing. Donot have any idea of how good IWC watches are in that department. Considering both watches are in almost the same price bracket (IWC Ingi 3239 - $6600 and Explorer 1 - $ 6550) I am confused on which to go with. I Know i can wriggle out a 10-12% discount on the Explorer 1 from my AD, but I have no idea on how much discount I can expect for the IWC.

Some guidance on which should be preferred and also advise on which of the above 2 would be holding value over a length of time (say 10 years or more) would be much appreciated.

Regards


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## GaryF

My preference would be for the IWC but I can't help feeling that the Explorer is the better buy. As has been repeated _ad nauseum_ the new Ingy seems to be engineered for one price point but marketed at another. However you feel about "in-house", I doubt many would argue that the engine is as desirable (let alone better) than the one in the Rolex.

So, if you pay the extra for the IWC, what are you paying for? The date? It arguably loses out on history, resale value and the company's reputation for aftersales care.

Which leaves you with your aesthetic preference and the ever-popular "I don't want to wear a Rolex" argument which you are clearly already past.

At the end of the day, though, none of this is really rational. You want one of them more than the other. Get that one.


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## exoticwatches

Yup .. done a bit of late night research and find that the 3239 is carrying an ETA 2892 inside ... which is dissappointing considering the price point .... 

But I hear the 42.5mm Ingy 322701 has an "inhouse" move ? Though on that also I read lot of ppl here in the IWC forums facing problems within a few years of purchase ..... 

Paying a premium just for the derived design of a Gerard Genta classic would not make sense for that price level right ? But maybe with a 25-30% discount ?


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## Keaman

The 3227 has the 'in-house' 80110 yes. I had one used and yes it came with a receipt for a movement repair that had been done. I suppose it's not an issue as long as it's fixed and doesn't recur. I hold nothing against the 30110 (in the 3239), even though it's based on the ETA 2892A2 (a legendary reliable and accurate movement). Anyway the 3227 is not what it's cracked up to be (personal experience). It's a massive chunk of watch (thick and heavy!!) that I felt was realistically unwearable. My 45.5mm Omega PO was far more comfortable. As for the 214270, I had the 114270 and the Expy is undoubtably an incredibly beautiful design. I sold mine in a moment of madness (for a nice profit though). I'd love to get the 214270, but the "hand issue" puts me off all the time. Now, as for the 323904, I am just waiting - I _will _have one soon, NO question!!!


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## exoticwatches

mosfetaus said:


> The 3227 has the 'in-house' 80110 yes. I had one used and yes it came with a receipt for a movement repair that had been done. I suppose it's not an issue as long as it's fixed and doesn't recur. I hold nothing against the 30110 (in the 3239), even though it's based on the ETA 2892A2 (a legendary reliable and accurate movement). Anyway the 3227 is not what it's cracked up to be (personal experience). It's a massive chunk of watch (thick and heavy!!) that I felt was realistically unwearable. My 45.5mm Omega PO was far more comfortable. As for the 214270, I had the 114270 and the Expy is undoubtably an incredibly beautiful design. I sold mine in a moment of madness (for a nice profit though). I'd love to get the 214270, but the "hand issue" puts me off all the time. Now, as for the 323904, I am just waiting - I _will _have one soon, NO question!!!


Definitely nothing against the watch or the movement inside .. but the price point is an issue right ?


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## Keaman

Doesn't matter to me. It's the fickle nature of luxury items - if you want it, you have to pay for it. Can't wait for the price to drop, aint gonna happen. I LOVE this watch and am happy to pay


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## jaychief

Rolex explorer, really hold there value


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## GaryF

exoticwatches said:


> Definitely nothing against the watch or the movement inside .. but the price point is an issue right ?


That's pretty much exactly how I feel. I still might get one (I really love the watch and have nothing against the movement) but it's hard to shake the feeling that IWC are taking buyers for a ride even by the already ludicrous standards of the Swiss Watch Industry. It feels like this is a watch that they built for those who don't know (or care) what is on the inside.

That $6000 ticket takes you into some territory where there are- on paper, at least -some more technically impressive options (Rolex, Grand Seiko and Omega spring immediately to mind) but, as I said, this isn't a subject that lends itself to rational value judgements. Once the thing is on your wrist, will you be able to enjoy the beautiful piece that it undoubtedly is or will the feeling of being gauged linger and ruin it? Only you know the answer.


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## ~tc~

None of the above.

Explorer 1 - "just another Rolex". At any reasonable distance can you tell the difference between the EXP1, AirKing, Perpetual, or a smooth bezel Datejust? I can't reward Rolex's design laziness with my $.

Ingy - WAY overpriced for what it is. IWC should be ashamed of themselves.

None of the IWC in house movements will fit in a case less than 42.5, and they are quite thick on top of that.

In this price range there are SO many options, I just don't see why I would go with either of these.


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## exoticwatches

~tc~ said:


> None of the above.
> 
> Explorer 1 - "just another Rolex". At any reasonable distance can you tell the difference between the EXP1, AirKing, Perpetual, or a smooth bezel Datejust? I can't reward Rolex's design laziness with my $.
> 
> Ingy - WAY overpriced for what it is. IWC should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> None of the IWC in house movements will fit in a case less than 42.5, and they are quite thick on top of that.
> 
> In this price range there are SO many options, I just don't see why I would go with either of these.


Maybe a Panerai 183 then ?


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## ~tc~

Actually, panerai falls into BOTH of the traps above - unimaginative designs AND way over priced for what you get (admittedly, i dont know which model numbers are in house now) 

My recommendation in this price range would be Skyfall AquaTerra (38.5 mm blue dial) and a weekend somewhere nice or something like a Ball or Oris and a week vacation somewhere nice.


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## exoticwatches

What is standing out - even in the IWC forum - is that Rolex Exp 1 is the only sensible choice for the Price Point of $6000/- when you compare all the 3 brands - Rolex, IWC and Panerai ... 

Guess rolex is "ROLEX" for all these decades for a reason


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## GaryF

exoticwatches said:


> What is standing out - even in the IWC forum - is that Rolex Exp 1 is the only sensible choice for the Price Point of $6000/- when you compare all the 3 brands - Rolex, IWC and Panerai ...
> 
> Guess rolex is "ROLEX" for all these decades for a reason


I don't know if I'd go as far as to call it a sensible choice. It's probably just the least non-sensical of the those three. ;-)


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## exoticwatches

Ok I guess the new Explorer 1 (214270) will be the watch of choice ..... though I will miss the date function and have to keep reaching for my cell phone if and when I need to check the date ... :think:


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## Stanford

~tc~ said:


> None of the IWC in house movements will fit in a case less than 42.5, and they are quite thick on top of that.


Actually, that's not accurate - the 80110, or more precisely the 80111, fits into the 40mm 3228 case, albeit without the faraday cage ;-)


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## iam7head

If you can't make up your mind then get the EXP1 first, in case you hated it you can sell it for not much lost. I love the Ingy line but they don't get much love here in this part of the world(don't even mention resale value unless it's BP or special ed)

For some reason I think people tense to forgive Panerai for using "meh" ETA modified movement in their entry level watch because most of the people buying it is getting it for the style/history(?)/emotional reason. Coming from Omega background I am very foreign to this concept, it's always been value for money, technological advancement for me.

Good luck with the decision!


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## exoticwatches

Got a call from the IWC Dealer after I left him a message .... he offered me straight 20% off on the watch without me even asking for it ... told him I will think about it and get back ..... guess I will try to get lucky and ask for 30%;-) or maybe even 40% ....


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## akit110

I have the closest Rolex analogue to the new 40mm Ingy - a Milgauss. No regrets on my part despite being a fan of IWC. I like the more retro-classic Oyster shape to the more unusual and distinctive Genta Ingy design. 

I have thought about the much loved 3227 with the in-house engine. But reading between the lines on reviews, it seems like a real lead biscuit of a watch and more and more, I am appreciating the comfort of smaller watches or at least lighter watches.

I wouldn't have worried too too much about ETA movements in IWC - if priced sensibly. They have been using ETA in many models going back decades. My Aquatimer ref 3536 is as tough as nails and went a decade and a half before 
I serviced it. And even then it was trouble-free and accurate within seconds a day but I decided to service as a preventive measure against moisture intrusion.

If you have doubts about either, I would get the Exp. You can more easily sell it and get the other later on if you hsve doubts. Plus it seems the Rolex pre-owned prices creep up in line with latest MSRP too.


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## sidestreaker

I was just at a AD this afternoon and tried on the new Inge 40mm automatic...



Tried it on, feels very good, I can imagine myself wearing this almost everyday... its very edgy, sharp looking and no-nonsense.
After a while, I remembered trying on an Explorer 1 some months ago. That felt pretty solid too...

I can understand how you feel. In any case, you can't go wrong with either one. Tough choice, but its a good problem to have. Good luck!


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## drhr

I'm not a deep thinker on these matters (choices). If it appeals to me, I get it cause life's too short, especially at my age. I love this thing, date function, ETA movement and all. Owned the 39mm Explorer at one point. No question as to it's heritage and quality, but, it stopped exciting me when I looked at my wrist. That happens, the piece is gone, which I'm thinking is true for at least some of us, if not many. This Ingenier is finally at a size that my wrist can handle so it'll stay 'till who knows. As others have opined, don't think you could make a drastic mistake with either . . .


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## Dixan

iam7head said:


> Coming from Omega background I am very foreign to this concept, it's always been value for money, technological advancement for me.
> 
> Good luck with the decision!


Depends on your perspective, I think. I'd much rather have a watch running an Omega Calibre 1120 or an IWC Calibre 30110, which are both ETA 2892.A2 based movements, than one using an Omega Calibre 2500. Some see the added-on Co-Axial escapement as a technological advancement, while others don't think it's necessary. From what i've been told, I think Omega themselves see it as a developmental platform, used to test the Co-Axial technology while planning the 8500/9300. The 8500/9300 movements are undoubtedly good value for money, but for me, the 30110/1120 movements are more desireable than the Omega 2500.

To the OP: The Rolex is very special. I loved mine. I only traded mine in (for its big brother, the new Explorer II), because it lacked a date feature. For a watch I wore as often as I wore the Explorer, I found I really needed a date feature. (That, and I had been wanting/needing a GMT watch for a long, long time.) Other than that, the watch was faultless. I happened to also enjoy, very much, the history of the iconic Explorer.

(If you can live without a date feature, the Explorer is hard to beat.)


















These new Ingenieurs are beautiful. I saw a few at my local boutique last week when I tried on the newer Portuguese Chronos. I didn't try them on, but I have to say, they looked a bit smaller than I expected. From a distance, they looked more like 38 mm watches, to me. Again, I only saw them in passing. Though I don't plan on getting one (I will own another 3227-01 some day), I do applaud IWC's decision to go smaller and more user-friendly with these new Ingenieurs. (EDIT: My guess is, on the wrist, the new Ingenieurs will probably wear similarly to the 39 Explorer. I'm sure up close, they are likely a very nice size and thickness.)

Good luck.


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## Keaman

Dixan said:


> ...These new Ingenieurs are beautiful. I saw a few at my local boutique last week when I tried on the newer Portuguese Chronos. I didn't try them on, but I have to say, they looked a bit smaller than I expected. From a distance, they looked more like 38 mm watches, to me.


I'm glad you say that K, because this 323904 _will_ be the next watch I buy, but I was thinking the 40x10 dimensions may look look a bit, not my style (too flat). But if you think it looks more like 38 - all the better!!


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## exoticwatches

Ok I asked the IWC AD for a 40% disc ... he first almost fainted ... but then said he will come back to me if he can make something more than 25% ... I told him am not settling for anything less than 30-35% for a watch with ETA movement inside ...


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## Dixan

exoticwatches said:


> Ok I asked the IWC AD for a 40% disc ... he first almost fainted ... but then said he will come back to me if he can make something more than 25% ... I told him am not settling for anything less than 30-35% for a watch with ETA movement inside ...


 Just because you harbor some ill conceived and ill informed notions about ETA based movements, your local AD should just sell you the watch at or below his cost? Please. Grow up and be a reasonable and respectful consumer. 35% off the newest and likely soon to be most desirable new mid-range model is simply not realistic. If you want quality, you'll need to pay for it.


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## GaryF

Dixan said:


> Just because you harbor some ill conceived and ill informed notions about ETA based movements, your local AD should just sell you the watch at or below his cost? Please. Grow up and be a reasonable and respectful consumer. 35% off the newest and likely soon to be most desirable new mid-range model is simply not realistic. If you want quality, you'll need to pay for it.


I'm not sure that he is necessarily disparaging the movement. I myself have nothing against the movement itself but the fact remains that it does appear in watches costing a fraction of the price IWC is asking even if IWC have upped the spec'. 
When trying to get a good deal, this kind of argument is worth a shot, imo, especially given some of the cock & bull I've heard dealers use to justify the prices they are trying to get _us_ to swallow. He isn't going to get 35%, sure, but it might get him another 2 or 3% off.... or convince the dealer he is wasting his time. That's certainly a danger. It's a fine line.....


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## martin_blank

Asking for nearly half off something brand new hardly suggests a serious buyer or even reasonable buyer IMHO.

I'd get the Rolex. I want to know a little more about this new line and its movement before choosing it over something so established.


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## GaryF

martin_blank said:


> Asking for nearly half off something brand new hardly suggests a serious buyer or even reasonable buyer IMHO.


On the subject of playing hardball when it comes to discounts, I was talking to someone who bought a POC from my local AD. He told me the story of how he managed- after much negotiating, bluffing and haggling (and, if I know him, offending half of the staff) -to beat them down to 25% off.
I have been offered 25% each off the three Omegas I got from them simply by using a little politeness and a pained expression when looking at the price tag. I guess there are lots of ways to skin a cat but you generally end up with the same skinned cat.


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## sidestreaker

GaryF said:


> ....I have been offered 25% each off the three Omegas I got from them simply by using a little politeness and a pained expression when looking at the price tag.....


I like that approach. Also you'll never know if you need to go back to get a warranty service and be the first on their contact list when they received something new.
In business, it's always good for both parties to be happy when closing a deal...


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## GaryF

sidestreaker said:


> I like that approach. Also you'll never know if you need to go back to get a warranty service and be the first on their contact list when they received something new.
> In business, it's always good for both parties to be happy when closing a deal...


Very true.


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## exoticwatches

Dixan said:


> Just because you harbor some ill conceived and ill informed notions about ETA based movements, your local AD should just sell you the watch at or below his cost? Please. Grow up and be a reasonable and respectful consumer. 35% off the newest and likely soon to be most desirable new mid-range model is simply not realistic. If you want quality, you'll need to pay for it.


Dixan, as Gary has already mentioned, it never hurts to bargain politely (add some smile to it) and getting to extract even a few basis points of economic advantage out of the price 

Being of modest means I try to extract as much value for my hard earned money as the next man .... don't have the money to throw away ...


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## Dixan

exoticwatches said:


> Dixan, as Gary has already mentioned, it never hurts to bargain politely (add some smile to it) and getting to extract even a few basis points of economic advantage out of the price
> 
> Being of modest means I try to extract as much value for my hard earned money as the next man .... don't have the money to throw away ...


It's one thing to want the absolute most watch for the money, in other words, the lowest price possible, but to expect anything over 30% off on a small(er) volume, higher-end watch that's just been introduced, is to expect the impossible. Your post made it seem like you feel that because this model is running an ETA based movement, and not an in-house movement, that there should be more room to deal, that perhaps you might be entitled to a 35-40% discount. I'm telling you, you'd be lucky to get anything over 25% off of such a highly sought after brand new model. Manage your expectations, is my advice. Anyway, best of luck.


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## p_mcgee

Sorry to say it but I'd pick the PAM 183 over any of the others you mentioned.

I had the newest Exp I 214270 & flipped it. The Exp I was nice & way more comfortable than the rest of the current Rolex sports line, but I missed having the date & in the end I never bonded with it. Ended up with a coke GMT instead which I will keep.

I haven't seen the 40mm Ingy in the flesh but based on the pics I'd pick it over the Exp I once pre-owned ones in excellent condition start showing up. No way am I paying $7K for an ETA based watch. Still has some of that Genta DNA.


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## lorsban

I would suggest buying the IWC used as well. It's just way overpriced new. If you can get it for about $3000-3500 that's ok. 

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk 2


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## akit110

exoticwatches said:


> Earlier I was contemplating between the GMT Master 2 and the *Explorer 1 (214270)* *39 mm* but I have now discarded the GMT Master 2 from my consideration. Instead I am now considering the *IWC Ingenieur **3239 (40mm)* automatic.
> Regards


I really like the 3239. However, given the ready availability of the 42MM 3227 in mint condition on the pre-owned market with the in-house movement for about 2/3rd the price on 3239, and the 40mm 3228 (in-house movement albeit display back) for even less, I think I would tend to veer towards these options in the Ingy. I know some people only buy 'new' so YMMV.


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## hoppes-no9

GaryF said:


> On the subject of playing hardball when it comes to discounts, I was talking to someone who bought a POC from my local AD. He told me the story of how he managed- after much negotiating, bluffing and haggling (and, if I know him, offending half of the staff) -to beat them down to 25% off.
> I have been offered 25% each off the three Omegas I got from them simply by using a little politeness and a pained expression when looking at the price tag. I guess there are lots of ways to skin a cat but you generally end up with the same skinned cat.


One day karma is gonna catch up with your buddy, and she can be a real PITA.


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## exoticwatches

p_mcgee said:


> Sorry to say it but I'd pick the PAM 183 over any of the others you mentioned.
> 
> I had the newest Exp I 214270 & flipped it. The Exp I was nice & way more comfortable than the rest of the current Rolex sports line, but I missed having the date & in the end I never bonded with it. Ended up with a coke GMT instead which I will keep.
> 
> I haven't seen the 40mm Ingy in the flesh but based on the pics I'd pick it over the Exp I once pre-owned ones in excellent condition start showing up. No way am I paying $7K for an ETA based watch. Still has some of that Genta DNA.


The PAM183 doesnot also come with date. I sold mine for a good profit but am regretting it now. But I do like both the Explorer 1 (214270) and the 40mm 3239 (blk dial)


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## exoticwatches

Explorer 1 all the wayyyy ...


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## nibor1412

I have an Ingy, go with it! Honestly when i first got it i like it, but i didnt love it. However with time, i feel like this piece really grows you on. The details on the dial is just amazing! Now its one of my most worn pieces excluded the daily beaters.


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## JP Chestnut

~tc~ said:


> *None of the IWC in house movements will fit in a case less than 42.5*, and they are quite thick on top of that.


That is incorrect. The movement from the 3227 fits in a 40mm case without the cage, and I assume others would as well (since they probably all share base plate dimensions).


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## jedmonds

~tc~ said:


> None of the IWC in house movements will fit in a case less than 42.5, and they are quite thick on top of that.


Portuguese Automatic is inhouse and in a 42.3mm case :-d


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## westlake

Fan of both Rolex and IWC, but in this comparison I would pick the Explorer I without hesitation. I just love that watch. Ingenieur line seems over-priced to me - which is also reflected on secondary market as the Explorers do far better.


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## coggy

Can't get over the oddly proportioned hands on the 214270, so it would be the Ingenieur for me (although its a shame the Ingy doesn't have the interlocking 'I' pattern on the dial).


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## iam7head

I was in the IWC store earlier today to check out the 40mm Ingy, it looks much better in person to say the least.

The sale reps presented the silver dial, the silver dial with rose gold and the black dial on rubber straps.

it wears true to size and I am happy to report it's much more interesting to stare at than a EXP1(Nothing against it of course)

As expected the milling and polishing is highly precise, even the underside of the bracelet clasp linkage is milled to perfection, this is one of the more refined mill work from Richemont. The rubber straps is soft yet very sturdy to handle, it comes with the pin quick change system.

It wasn't cheap but it sure is exceptional, would make a great everyday watch if you wear suit or shirt as much I do in the day to day.

Christmas, perhaps


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## Robertus

Some Jaeger-LeCoultre models?


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## mikkemus23

I would get the Ingy with the white dial, if possible at 25% discount. To me it just looks a little better and sportier. The Exp might be the better allrounder though. Neither choice is wrong


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## captainh0wdy

RG version is very nice.


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## MrDagon007

An Explorer 2 perhaps?


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