# Ranking Soviet watch brands



## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

Something I've been thinking about for a while, so why not discuss it here? 

Most of us know specific models of Soviet watches that are valuable for one reason or another. There are our 3017s, transistors, etc. But what I'm trying to recollect is which factories, or, rather, which brands were more sought after than the others. Let's say that on average Patek is more valuable than AP and AP than IWC. There might be more or less expensive range within those brands, but the general value is easy to see. So, in that vein, how would Soviet brands be rated?

Poljot
Slava
Raketa
Vostok
Pobeda
Luch
Anything else that's big enough to merit a mention.

I specifically left out Strela, for example, as this is Poljot's boutique brand, so to speak. I also know that a number of calibers made it to a bunch of different brands and even that early watches were made as identical models by different factories. But that's not what we're talking bout here. 

A separate and interesting discussion would be how this brands rate now when we look for watches from, say 50-80s. 

What do you guys and girls think? Discuss


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## emoscambio (Nov 29, 2007)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*



mike.s said:


> Something I've been thinking about for a while, so why not discuss it here?
> 
> Most of us know specific models of Soviet watches that are valuable for one reason or another. There are our 3017s, transistors, etc. But what I'm trying to recollect is which factories, or, rather, which brands were more sought after than the others. Let's say that on average Patek is more valuable than AP and AP than IWC. There might be more or less expensive range within those brands, but the general value is easy to see. So, in that vein, how would Soviet brands be rated?
> 
> ...


Perhaps our dear administrator Michele could launch a sticky poll, if such things exist? Try to PM him!


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## storyteller (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

Most of them don't exist now, so in past tense - Poljot was the king. Chronographs, chronmeters for the navy and the airforce, space watches, first automatic watches, ultraslims, quartz... Vostok takes the second place - the best wrist watch movement, 2809 and the best case - the amphibians. 
Slava was maybe the most underappreciated - actually they were quite innovative, electo-mechanical and tunning-fork watches, the first quartz, the best stop-watches... Pobeda - the epithome of Soviet watch ideology, reliable and utterly reliable. How the modern jewelry-oriented, premium-dreaming brands could overcome this heritage? 
Can't understand Raketa - yes, 2609 H, but what else worth mentioning, besides good intentions?


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## nectarios73 (Jul 26, 2010)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

now vostok is the king !


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## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

Storyteller, my own feeling is that Poljot was, indeed, the most valued in people's minds. Followed by Komandirskie (Vostok), but no other Vostoks (amfibias were quite rare and most people didn't know of them, I believe). Than Slava, Luch/Raketa. Pobeda was non-existant in the 70s and 80s if my memory serves me. Even though I had my grandfather's Pobeda on my wrist back than, since the age of 6 or so. I think your assessment is accurate as of today, looking back.

With this memory excursion, though, I'm also interested in what was in people's minds back then. I know that for most people the actual calibers were not all that important. Reliability was important, look, status. And that's my feeling - Poljot enjoyed the highest status from early 60s on. Curious if anyone remembers that far and can confirm 

I remember being 15 and going to a watch store with my dad. My Pobeda died by than from all the stress of daily wear, playing soccer and hockey, occasional fight, getting rained on, fishing little matchstick boats out of a stream in spring... you know, being a kid. We looked at a bunch of watches and ended up with a Slava automatic with day/date. I remember it being huge compared to Pobeda, not lasting long and eventually being replaced by a humongous Chaika quartz/mechanical contraption that was accurate... to about 5 minutes a day. But I also remember that Slava was considered pretty fancy at 55 rubles while that later Chaika was actually sold at a discounted price, something really, really rare back then. I think it was 35 rubles.

It's be interesting to simply compare the state-set prices on similar watches in different brands. That would answer a lot of these questions, I think.


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## storyteller (Jan 20, 2010)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

You can look also at the caseback inscriptions. The bosses usually received Poljots and some occasional 2809 or top-grade Slava; the officers - Vostok, the early 2234 or civilian 24xx. The common people - Slava, Raketa, Luch.


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## phd (Oct 2, 2008)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

//Can't understand Raketa - yes, 2609 H, but what else worth mentioning, besides good intentions?//

Ahem.

I think Raketa's overall claim to fame is that they produced some of the most robust yet very affordable movements. Other manufacturers produced movements which had more complications, or were more affordable, or were more robust (or better cased), but not all three.

Also, the idiosyncratic diversity of Raketas (or, more generally Petrodvoretz watches; but mainly Raketas) is very refreshing, and contrasts with the Western view of Soviet industry producing only functional, sensible designs. A lot of Raketas are quite uniquely, spectacularly and imaginatively ugly, but they were children of their time.

I am sometimes jealous of the chronographs made by other manufacturers, or of specific and iconic models but, taking the range of each manufacturer's watches over the decades, I enjoy Raketas more.

Paul


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## Mister Mike (Nov 11, 2009)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

Unlike western brands that seldom deviate from their predefined low-end/high-end ranges, Russian brands were all over the place. Yes, Poljot had the biggest factory and chronographs, and Vostok had the military and dive watches, but there are all kinds of exceptions. Slava and Raketa are generally regarded as lower-cost brands, but Raketa made the polar expedition model, as well as Brezhnev's solid gold watch. Slava had the Transistor tuning fork watch (as already mentioned), and my beloved Slava Amphibian breaks all the usual Slava stereotypes (generous lume, solid steel, waterproof, stylish), and like other later Slavas, it had a unique dual-mainspring movement. Raketa had some cool Amphibians too, for that matter. Vostok had the 300M and the Chronometer... I could keep going, but the point is at face value, you might list Poljot, Vostok, Raketa, Slava... but the more you learn about how much each factory brought to the game, the more you realize that it's almost impossible to rank them.


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## schnurrp (May 4, 2011)

*Re: Ranking Soviet watche companies*

This is how I rank them:

It's close but I would say best-all-around you have to pick Vostok. They had everything except a chronograph and that deficiency was partly offset by being the only maker with a chronometer-grade movement.

Poljot a close second but had no tough, waterproof dive-style watches other than their amphibian which evidently was never produced in large numbers.

Then Raketa which had the most unique and interesting pieces and the longest history.

And finally Slava which also had some nice pieces but in last place in the "Top Four".


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## koutouzoff (May 3, 2011)

I think the only brand with a true potential is Poljot. 
It has a fantastic story to tell. That is for the "future"...

Looking back on soviet times, I would rate first Poljot (broadly speaking all 1MChZ's production from Kirovkie to Sekonda and Shturmanskie), then Raketa for the diversity and the quality of its designs. In 3d position Vostok.

I would not consider any other brand (Slava, Molnya, etc...)


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## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

Interesting. Is Slava excluded on technical merits or because it was not popular back in SU? I think it was


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## sci (Aug 6, 2009)

For me it's 

Poljot
Vostok
Raketa
Chaika & Slava
Zaria
Luch
Zim

Slava have some really nice watches and clocks, for me #1 is the 11 jewels alarm clock  The automatics from Slava are mostly unsuccessful. The dual spring is definitely a good achievement... despite the fact, that the Slavas I have with this movement are with worst precision. Maybe it's not a common rule


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## serdal23 (May 15, 2011)

Dear Comrades,

Thanks a lot for starting this very informative thread, and for feeding with wonderful treasure of knowledge! The more I read your posts, the more I remember my days in CCCP.

I was working on the cargo ships beginning 90's. I was very lucky enough to visit CCCP during its final years. 

But I made a very big mistake: I didn't buy any Soviet watch back then. Really, big mistake . . . I wasn't into the watches this much.

I am still a newbie in the Soviet / Russian watch world, and I would like to learn more with your precious helps. 

Now about the thread . . . I love all and each of the CCCP brands and movements and models a lot. 

Thank you all for this information, and for bringing my memories back to my mind. I miss those years a lot . . . . .

very Best regards.

Capt. Serdal


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## Mark Gordon (Feb 13, 2006)

Both this question and the answers that have been posted show a lack of understanding about how the Soviet system produced goods and services.

In Soviet times, the watch and clock factories were not independent or autonomous in any way and they did not position themselves or their products in the marketplace in any reputational sense. They were simply the production units of a centralized planning process that assigned everything to them, including production equipment, raw materials, the specific models to be produced, production targets for these models, and even customers. The central planners were not very concerned with how consumers or even civilian institutional customers viewed the products that were produced (they did care about military customers, however :-d). 

This is the way the system operated for the entire duration of the Soviet Union. It only broke down in the mid 1980s, when factory management was able to assume some degree of autonomy over what and how much they produced. Unfortunately, this increased autonomy coincided with a breakdown in supply chain, resulting in severe shortages of raw materials and working capital (that is to say workers often went unpaid for long periods of time).

Essentially, for most of the history of the Soviet Union all factories did what they were told to do. In the cases of watches and clocks this meant that the factory output was often inconsistent from product to product and from year to year.

Within the Soviet centralized planning system, the 1st Moscow Watch Factory played a special role in several respects. It was often treated as an R&D center and it therefore often took the lead in developing new movements. It was also the principal factory for producing exports, and since the Soviets depended on exports for hard currency, central planners demanded that export production be of international quality.

The 2nd Moscow Watch Factory produced a much smaller range of 'civilian' watches and clocks, but it seems to have been an OEM center, which produced a broad range of specialized timepieces and related mechanical devices for military applications. Lots of weird stuff came out of the 2nd Moscow Watch Factory. 

In addition to clocks and watches, Chistopol produced a broad range of non-time related mechanical devices. They did some interesting clockwork devices for electrical systems and for oil drilling and refining applications (just to name 2 areas off the top of my head). They were not big producers of high-quality timepieces for military use. They did make wall clocks for ships (both naval and civilian) and dive watches that were used by the military. As has been discussed at length on the Forum, from the early 1980s they also produced watches that were available to the 'elite' for personal consumption through military sponsored shops.

Initially, Petrodworzowy (Raketa) was a big supplier of jewels and other components to other watch factories, though other suppliers came on stream in the 1970s. They seem to have taken well to freedom as the Soviet system crumbled in the 1980s and produced some beautiful and highly experimental things. Perhaps its location near St. Petersburg (then Leningrad) Russia's doorway to the west had something to do with this.

Anyway, I wouldn't try to rigidly characterize any of the Soviet-era factories by quality or any other absolute criteria. The system just did not work that way.

Gotta go.
-- Mark


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## koutouzoff (May 3, 2011)

My key criteria in ranking brands does not relate to popularity or the industrial organisation under soviet times (cf. Mark Gordon's point).

This criteria is what brands managed to produce some *iconic watches*? And based on this, Slava, Chaika, Molnya and others did not produced iconic watches but rather impersonnal goods...


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## storyteller (Jan 20, 2010)

I respectfully disagree with Mark Gordon. 
1. There was a hierarchy of prestige of consumerist goods in Soviet times, including watches. If we look at the caseback inscriptions, it is quite easy to see that Poljot (or 1 MWF in general) was usually given as official gift to important people. Vostok - to veterans or serving officers, etc. 
2. The central planners did care about the end customers, even if they conceived the good as yet another tool for constructing the perfect new communist citizen. 
3. Moreover, there were at least 4 large transformations of design style and consumption patterns during the socialism, each one provoked by the central authorities and reflecting the way they imagined the socialist society. So it is wrong to treat the whole 70 years of socialism as a single amorphous whole.

There are at least a dozen of books of consumption under socialism published in English in the last years, but as a general introductory reading I would recommend older classics as:
- for the first years after the revoluton - Victor Buchli, "An Archeology of Socialism", Berg, Oxford, 1999
- for the Stalin era and the Big Deal, when high-quality consumerist goods were offered to the nomenclatura - Sheila Fitzpatrick, "The Cultural Front", Ithaca, 1992 
- for Khrushchev era - Susan Reid and David Crowley's volume "Style and socialism", Berg, 2000, especially the excellent articles of Raymond Sokes and Iurii Gerchuk on 1950s and 1960s there, as well as Reid, Susan, _Destalinization and Taste 1953-1963_, in: Journal of Design History, 10, 2 (1997), 177 - 201
- for Brezhnev era - David Crowley and Susan Reid volume, Socialist Spaces. Sites of Everyday Life in the Eastern Bloc, Berg, Oxford, 2002


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## Mark Gordon (Feb 13, 2006)

I don't disagree that a hierarchy like you describe existed. Ilia. In fact, I allude to such differences in my brief thumbnail descriptions of the 1st Moscow Watch Factory, 2nd Moscow Watch Factory, etc. Each factory had its own niche in the planning universe. But there was no real 'brand consistency'. And sometimes, there was the opposite, as when 3 different factories were producing identical Pobedas at the same time. I apologize if I stated the case too simplistically. It is a difficult topic to discuss briefly. Also, I should stress that I was not there at the time so I must humbly defer to people, such as yourself, had more experience with the system.
-- Mark


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## storyteller (Jan 20, 2010)

Come on, of course you know more about the Soviet watches, especially since I caught only the years when Western goods were far more prestigeous than any socialist ones. Just my 2 kopeiki: it seems people were quite sensitive to apparently insignificant details and hierarchies, incl. in watches, which no normal outsider could notice. But I guesss similar idiosyncratic hierarchies exist among Rolex or PP collectors.


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## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

Mark, as I've lived half my life in USSR... it is very difficult to explain, but there was a very obvious and deeply ingrained sense of "hierarchy" based, specifically, on brands. Even though, as you said correctly, brands themselves did not make much sense in western sense. Your example of Pobeda made at three different factories is great. People would actually find out which factory it's made at and would buy 1MChZ instead of 2nd. Just so they have this tiny modicum of extra prestige and bragging rights: "Well, my Pobeda was made by 1MChZ!". If you don't have a chance to differentiate yourself from teh crowd in tangible ways, you had to concoct ways like this.

Let's just say that _any_ Jugoslavian-made shoe, no matter how crappy, was considered to be better than _anything_ made by Skorohod. What I'm saying is that gen pop did not care about watches the way we, WIS care about them. Well, no wonder, gen pop today cares about watches even less than Soviets did 40 years ago. But, like today, they did care about prestige and "moda" (trend, for lack of better translation, but, really, a driving force of grey sameness prevalent there in the 70s and 80s). So based on that I've asked my question. How today's "prestige" (ha!) of the soviet brands compares to mine and others' recollection to brand prestige of the 70s and 80s in SU.

I will recommend a good book to read on the subject if one had not done so - "Klass" by David Willis: Amazon.com: Klass: How Russians Really Live (9780380702633): David K. Willis: Books It actually goes into pretty good detail as to what was driving soviet citizenry, including prestige and fear to appear below their "klass" level. I think it's a good book for any soviet-afflicted WIS just to understand how and why things were made, bought and cared 9or not cared) for.


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

Gentlemen,

The original question seems very simple but it would be very difficult - if at all possible - to give a clear-cut answer. There are so many factors involved, and like any complex situation, the way you look at it would give very different results.

Say for instance, it could be a factor one can consider important, by looking at the range or individual examples a company builds/built. In other words, the man in the street would definitely rate Rolex way above Seiko, but then a top-flight Grand Seiko can eat any Rolex for lunch in terms of the virtuosity in engineering and construction, and the GS owner would just chuckle and say Rolex is much over-rated, despite everyone thinking otherwise.

To be realistic once again, I feel that most of the members here did not grow up in an environment where Soviet-built watches were the norm; they have a greater awareness of the wider horological industry, and chose to be interested in Soviet/Russian products. This also means that each one had the opportunity to form his own individual opinion which is by nature totally subjective.

With all due respect to Mike and all my fellow correspondents, personally I cannot see how any attempt to make a "ranking hierarchy" matters. Someone wearing a watch for which he paid multiple of thousands might feel smug and look down on everyone else, and would also feels that way when seeing someone wearing the same brand of watch but costing less for not having as many diamonds, or whatever. But then I guess with a relatively humble Russian watch on my wrist - even something like a run-of-the-mill Pobeda, I might have a greater appreciation of it, as a piece of manufactured product, a timepiece, a product designed and built within a specific social context during that particular period... that is what really matters to me.


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## storyteller (Jan 20, 2010)

You are probably right. But ranking, bragging, and teasing is fun, so it matters for some of us. And Poljot was the king.


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## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

Seele, very good points!

Let's look at it a little differently. When you search eBay, do you search for Poljot before Slava? 

You actually touched on something I could not quite put my finger on before. By the very fact that we wear Soviet watches by choice we are outside of the norm of a western hierarchy. So it's an eccentric thing to do by definition. and there's no point in discussing hierarchy from that standpoint. But within that small community and within our own minds there's something... I dunno... call it coolness factor, desirability... something like that. We can distinguish specific desirable models, no matter who made them. But as a bunch, what brand generally makes your heart beat a little faster? I guess that's the question. 

One more thing. I am completely and utterly disinterested in Vostok as a brand, even though others love them and I own a few. Just doesn't tug the strings for some reason.


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

Mike,

Your feeling of indifference towards Vostok is yet another example of what I meant in my previous post; personally I do not feel the same emotional connection with Vostok as compared to, say, Raketa. Vostok sports watches to me are like my best friend Chuck who lives down the road: always reliable and trustworthy, comfortable to hang out with, I can always count on him no matter what, but I sure won't feel anything beyond that towards him!

And for me, when I do eBay search the first I look for is Sekonda, and then Pobeda... that may or may not mean anything at all :-d


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## mike.s (Feb 23, 2009)

Seele, just stay away from Chuck 

Interesting that you look for Sekondas. Seriously, I don't even think about them for some reason. Vaguely recollect that my dad had one (2209, I'm sure) after his 2209 Poljot bit the dust after 20 years of service. But nothing past that. So, why Sekonda, specifically? You've really picked my curiosity.


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## Seele (Jan 9, 2010)

Mike,

I think my interest in those sold by Sekonda UK has something to do with my being an ex-Brit Australian, and that is probably as valid a reason as anything else. Besides, the vendors tend to be individuals in the UK rather than high-volume professional dealers, so they might be less prone to having been messed with. Hypothetically if I have to pick between two absolutely identical examples, one branded Sekonda and one bearing the manufacturer's own branding, I honestly do not know which one I would pick, but I have never faced a situation like that, and I doubt if I ever will.

Also, some Sekonda-branded examples have unusual - and to me, appealing - extra markings. For a brief period, as far as I know, Sekonda UK got the manufacturers to put extra markings on the casebacks. For instance both my Sekonda round-case Raketa 2609.1 and Raketa pocket watch 2614.N have caseback engraved with "Raketa Watch Factory USSR", and a couple of my Sekonda-branded Luch-built Vympels are marked on the back in a similar manner.


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## Wolf57 (Mar 2, 2021)

Mark Gordon said:


> Both this question and the answers that have been posted show a lack of understanding about how the Soviet system produced goods and services.
> 
> In Soviet times, the watch and clock factories were not independent or autonomous in any way and they did not position themselves or their products in the marketplace in any reputational sense. They were simply the production units of a centralized planning process that assigned everything to them, including production equipment, raw materials, the specific models to be produced, production targets for these models, and even customers. The central planners were not very concerned with how consumers or even civilian institutional customers viewed the products that were produced (they did care about military customers, however :-d).
> 
> ...


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## Fergfour (Jan 4, 2013)

Wolf57, this thread ended 9 years ago. Did you intend to add some thoughts?


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## Dodgydruid (Jul 15, 2019)

Vostok's are in a class of their own simply for their rugged and no nonsense build reflecting on their military use and so easy to work on that even a soldier could prob fix his Vostok out in the field or at least dry it out and get some use out of it. Whilst I am finding a bracelet for my newly arrived Slava tank I am enjoying wearing my GRU dialled 420 Amphibia, I love all my Amphibias and even built one from off the shelf parts last year.

Slava's are I think the ones that put a lot of effort into style and trying to be different to the rest of the SU brands, when working Slavas are absolutely gawjus pieces but the twin mainspring movements are known to be problematic, you should take a look at the central shaft on a twin mainspring there being the most exquisite cut ruby shaft.

Chaika's like Slava's went with very bold and futuristic designs, sadly they had a terrible reliability reputation and my serviced Chaika Stadium lasted about a year before it started going slow or stopping for no apparent reason, a friend looked at it and said there seemed to be nothing wrong and put it back together, worked for a few months then did the same again yet my Chaika "red eye" and "white eye" have been abs perfect runners.

Luch had high and low points, was more involved in quartz and its mecha-quartz are commanding quite high prices, seemed to try and break from the SU pack with such as the integral bracelet'd faceted glass model of which is my favourite Luch I own.

Poljot, well you just can't go wrong with Poljot, with very high end stuff like the 3017 to more common and garden Poljotery and of all my marques, my Poljots I have little problems with if at all and I would recommend Poljot's or its Sekonda versions in a heartbeat esp the De Luxe.

Raketa, nicknamed Russia's Rolex at one point I believe, these are very good quality watches esp the Baker's which have a very unusual way of advancing the day on the day-dates. Raketa paddled a lot in Seiko's paddling pools and quite a striking semblance between some Raketa and western designs.

Elektronika is a digital brand part of the Ministry of Electronic Goods or what ever it is called and they are famous for collaborating with Pulsar to bring out the now iconic red LED digital watch that cost more new than a Rolex.

Pobeda and Zim had some very nice offerings, the UFO from either with the subdial seconds is a very nice reliable watch and looks absolutely space age through and through.

Of course there were rebrands, Sekonda, Cornavin, Cardinal to name three popular rebrands, I abs love the Sekonda's I have including a rare Sekonda version of the Slava tank and recently I added a Cornavin "fridge" to my collection it being a Slava too.

Quartz models are brilliant but can be fragile or due to age wear out, of the mens bigger watches I favour the 3050/3056 and A but they don't like sharp impacts as inside the shaft well there is nothing protecting those pinion shafts from excessive impact and the finer than a human hair pivots will shear. I would recommend a 3056 Luch mecha-hybrid, Chaika "big blue" fridge's are also commanders of high prices and I saw last week a NOS Slava tank quartz chap was asking £300 or thereabouts and the listing ended early so someone offered him a number he accepted.

I can't comment on any of the chrono's simply as I have never found one in my price bracket, I have considered horse trading for one or maybe selling my Komandirskies to buy a 3133 but am in no rush and I have the ear of someone who is hitting up on the big buyers markets in Belarus and Russia sometime this year so have high hopes for a 3133 as the 3017's are serious serious money.

Check out my youtube channel via link below and go through the videos and you will see some of the best and worst of Soviet watches, indeed I have just taken delivery of another Slava tank I bought to keep my Sekonda one in its NOS condition as I only wear the Sekonda for formal occasions as it really is beautiful.


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