# My A Lange and Söhne Zeitwerk fiasco. If you own a luxury watch, here’s how you can protect yourself



## mebiuspower (Sep 24, 2009)

Long video but let it be a lesson for us all.

(Sorry this is not my watch, I just copied & pasted the video title.)


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## weisscomposer (Dec 2, 2018)

It sounds like you had a poor experience, which I'm very sorry to hear. A 32-minute video is kind of a big ask, though. Would you be able to give us a "TL; DR" version so we have an idea of what happened and what you'd like to caution us against?


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

Agree. The Cliff Notes version please?


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## GConn (Oct 27, 2014)

Video looks great, but 32 mins, I couldn't finish it due to other things I have to finish


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## dirtvictim (Mar 9, 2006)

I charge 60.00 per hour, so if I watch this then you will need to send me 32.00


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## diracpoint (Oct 15, 2021)

Watched the full video, because I have the same watch!!!

Basically, ZW stopped working one day, and when it was sent to ALS, they said that it has been opened by a third party and hence the warranty is void. Note: The watch was originally bought brand new from a Lange AD, with the plastic seal and all.

Apart from the owner, the watch has been with an evaluation agent (insurance purposes) and with the Wempe boutique.

It turns out that most likely somebody at the Wempe boutique opened the watch without authorization and was not able to reassemble it properly.

The owner managed to figure it out only because he took photographs of the movements before giving it to the above parties. Wempe has agreed to pay the repair bills.

Bottomline - the owner will probably not buy from C24, because of all these risks. And, take photographs before you give your watch to others for any reason.


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## rado63 (Dec 15, 2011)

I agree take photographs of your watch before you send it off.


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## Nokie (Jul 4, 2011)

Document and time stamp everything prior to sending it off for your own protection.


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## usccopeland (Jan 20, 2021)

diracpoint said:


> take photographs before you give your watch to others for any reason.


Great tip. I'll be doing this any time my watch goes to the AD or out for service.


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## blakestarhtown (Jul 14, 2018)

mebiuspower said:


> Long video but let it be a lesson for us all.
> 
> (Sorry this is not my watch, I just copied & pasted the video title.)


So, someone tried to finesse Doctor Who.
And make him be liable for the repair.
Sounds about right.


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## Das-Bimmer (Nov 20, 2015)

Did the video say how much it was going to be in repairs? I'm just curious what ALS would charge to repair a masterpiece like the ZW? I would assume it's the watch equivalent to repairing a McLaren F1 or Bugatti Veyron.


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## crappysurfer (Feb 13, 2014)

TLDR; Watch has clear signs of being opened and mishandled, warranty work is declined with proof. OP denies doing it and goes down the chain to find out where it could have happened. Nobody accepted responsibility, but wempe or whatever AD admitted they could not disprove that it didn't happen with them as the employee who handled it had conveniently quit.

An exhaustingly long video to let people know to photograph their watches before sending them out, which ofc you should all do.


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## diracpoint (Oct 15, 2021)

Das-Bimmer said:


> Did the video say how much it was going to be in repairs? I'm just curious what ALS would charge to repair a masterpiece like the ZW? I would assume it's the watch equivalent to repairing a McLaren F1 or Bugatti Veyron.


$3450.

Price lists are available here.


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## mozo (Aug 17, 2018)

It was quite obviously a Wempe employee who opened the watch. They said from the outset they'd look at it to see if they could repair it in-house so that it didnt have to go back to Glassute; how else would they determine that they could or could not (they could not) without opening it up?


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## hiboost (Nov 16, 2010)

Taking pictures is a good tip, but my takeaway from this experience is to never let anyone other than the manufacturer open, internally inspect, or attempt to repair such an expensive, complicated, and proprietary watch. 

The key mistake here was even entertaining the notion of a "quick fix". If there had been a screw rolling around, would he really have been ok with just reinstalling it and moving forward? Wouldn't he have wanted a complete evaluation to put his mind at ease that something else wasn't amiss?


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## AnonPi (Aug 19, 2020)

hiboost said:


> Taking pictures is a good tip, but my takeaway from this experience is to never let anyone other than the manufacturer open, internally inspect, or attempt to repair such an expensive, complicated, and proprietary watch.
> 
> The key mistake here was even entertaining the notion of a "quick fix". If there had been a screw rolling around, would he really have been ok with just reinstalling it and moving forward? Wouldn't he have wanted a complete evaluation to put his mind at ease that something else wasn't amiss?


That and, considering the price and complexity of a Zeitwerk, $3,450 is more than reasonable.


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## Stchambe (Jun 1, 2009)

diracpoint said:


> Watched the full video, because I have the same watch!!!
> 
> Basically, ZW stopped working one day, and when it was sent to ALS, they said that it has been opened by a third party and hence the warranty is void. Note: The watch was originally bought brand new from a Lange AD, with the plastic seal and all.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the summary.

Guess it’s another reason for me not to deal with Wempe.

I had an Overseas which was showing odd timekeeping anomaly and I took it to a wempe. They attached it to a timegrapher and determined it was out of spec. Was told they would send it to VC for inspection and service. Great.

A few months later got a call to come pick up the watch. Paid for the cost of service and whatnot. Wore the watch and saw the same problem come back, also noticed a new scuff from what looks like an error with a polishing wheel. Turns out they never sent the watch to VC and did everything in-house.

long story short, I ended up sending the watch to VC directly and a few more months later they took care of everything and returned the watch. The Wempe work had extended the warranty as they are recognized to service VC so the second round of service only cost me time at the end of the day.

Won’t deal with Wempe again though. Aren’t offering anything I can’t get somewhere else.

/end rant


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## whineboy (Aug 12, 2012)

crappysurfer said:


> TLDR; Watch has clear signs of being opened and mishandled, warranty work is declined with proof. OP denies doing it and goes down the chain to find out where it could have happened. Nobody accepted responsibility, but wempe or whatever AD admitted they could not disprove that it didn't happen with them as the employee who handled it had conveniently quit.
> 
> An exhaustingly long video to let people know to photograph their watches before sending them out, which ofc you should all do.


All, let’s stop pounding on OP. OP clearly said it is not his watch, he was merely posting an interesting video. 



mebiuspower said:


> Long video but let it be a lesson for us all.
> 
> (Sorry this is not my watch, I just copied & pasted the video title.)


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## hiboost (Nov 16, 2010)

AnonPi said:


> That and, considering the price and complexity of a Zeitwerk, $3,450 is more than reasonable.


Yes and no. Even $100 is a screw if you did nothing wrong. I think this discussion is all about the principles here. The youtuber even mentioned that he gladly paid for the full repair of his Saxonia that he went swimming with (ouch) because it was clearly his fault.


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## mudnut (5 mo ago)

Thanks for sharing this video. It is clear to me that even if the boutique had the photo that was taken when they took the watch in to contemplate repair, they would deny it as otherwise there would be proof that they had not only tampered with the watch but bugged it up big time and the repercussions would not only be bad publicity but also will likely get them in hot waters with ALS.

What about watches with closed case back? Is no one supposed to open it even for inspections or authentication other than authorized service centers lest being accused of tampering and warranty denied?


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## hiboost (Nov 16, 2010)

mudnut said:


> What about watches with closed case back? Is no one supposed to open it even for inspections or authentication other than authorized service centers lest being accused of tampering and warranty denied?


I would argue "yes", i.e. no one else should be opening them. It's not the manufacturer's problem that you are thinking your side deal through a buddy may not have been a legit purchase (the story from the video). If the end consumer buys directly from an AD then there's nothing to doubt and no need to inspect. If he purchases anywhere else, then nothing is ever known for certain. There's no way in hell I'd let any place, even an AD, open up one of my watches "just to have a look". It should only be opened by a party you trust to do a full service, and that's when it should be opened. I cringe every time I see an opened up case in for-sale photos. "Great, needs to go to a watchmaker now, thanks". No other way to know if the water resistance is still in tact, etc.


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## ThomasTuck11 (Jun 7, 2020)

Wow, what a nightmare. The mantra: Always Take Photos Before Sending Watch


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## Squashracquets (May 1, 2020)

Some here are saying the owner should have taken photographs before sending to Wempe, but I don't see how that would have helped. No picture would reveal whether the watch had been opened, and thart was the matter in dispute in this case.


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

Squashracquets said:


> Some here are saying the owner should have taken photographs before sending to Wempe, but I don't see how that would have helped. No picture would reveal whether the watch had been opened, and thart was the matter in dispute in this case.


Screws (like the caseback screws) end up in different positions after it's opened.


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## blucupp (Dec 1, 2017)

I will never own a watch like this just like a high profile girlfriend the hassle to payoff ratio is too high.

As always in life the price for the last tenth is tedious. 9 tenths will do the job just fine.


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## Squashracquets (May 1, 2020)

CFR said:


> Screws (like the caseback screws) end up in different positions after it's opened.


Good point. You're right that the owner could tell the difference between the position of the screws before sending and as it came back to him from Wempe. But if you look at the Zeitwerk pictures on Lange's site, the screws are in different orientations in each picture. So it's hard to imagine that Lange could tell from the mere positions of the screws that it had been opened. Unless the screws were scarred, Lange must have been looking for something else.


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## Squashracquets (May 1, 2020)

We've been so focused on the story of the warranty transaction that nobody seems to have mentioned the groan-worthy fact that this $90,000 watch by one of the reputedly most exacting and perfectionistic makers, crapped out after what I make to be about 5 months of purchase from an authorized dealer. The YouTube author says "Oh well, mechanical things sometimes go wrong." Really? I can't see such a watch stopping unless there is a serious manufacturing screw up. The owner, and perhaps all of us, should be asking whether we pay too much at times because of reputational hype.


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## duck2h (Jun 16, 2015)

Squashracquets said:


> We've been so focused on the story of the warranty transaction that nobody seems to have mentioned the groan-worthy fact that this $90,000 watch by one of the reputedly most exacting and perfectionistic makers, crapped out after what I make to be about 5 months of purchase from an authorized dealer. The YouTube author says "Oh well, mechanical things sometimes go wrong." Really? I can't see such a watch stopping unless there is a serious manufacturing screw up. The owner, and perhaps all of us, should be asking whether we pay too much at times because of reputational hype.


<Rolls eyes at Rolex>


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

Squashracquets said:


> Good point. You're right that the owner could tell the difference between the position of the screws before sending and as it came back to him from Wempe. But if you look at the Zeitwerk pictures on Lange's site, the screws are in different orientations in each picture. So it's hard to imagine that Lange could tell from the mere positions of the screws that it had been opened. Unless the screws were scarred, Lange must have been looking for something else.


Oh I think I see what you mean. I'm pretty sure Lange photographs watches when they arrive, before they're opened for servicing. Assuming that's true, then the OP could've sent Lange his "pre-Wempe" photo when Lange said someone had been inside the watch. Lange would've compared his caseback pic to Lange's own caseback pic and seen that the screws were in different places. Apart from that, there are certain other telltale signs that Lange watchmakers can look for. These include minor scarring on the screws and evidence that bare flesh (a fingertip) touched the German silver. I'd imagine they can't always tell, but often they can. I once had a Lange watchmaker show me what he looks for but I don't remember the other details.



Squashracquets said:


> We've been so focused on the story of the warranty transaction that nobody seems to have mentioned the groan-worthy fact that this $90,000 watch by one of the reputedly most exacting and perfectionistic makers, crapped out after what I make to be about 5 months of purchase from an authorized dealer. The YouTube author says "Oh well, mechanical things sometimes go wrong." Really? I can't see such a watch stopping unless there is a serious manufacturing screw up. The owner, and perhaps all of us, should be asking whether we pay too much at times because of reputational hype.


It's frustrating to pay a lot of money and have a product fail prematurely, but I don't consider every failure that occurs within the warranty period to represent a serious manufacturing screw up. The Zeitwerk contains over 400 parts crammed into an area the size of an Oreo cookie. Those parts need to be precisely hand-adjusted and lubricated for the watch to work properly. During that process, which involves lots of human craftsmanship with very tiny tolerances, sometimes a little something is off right out of the gate that causes the watch to fail prematurely. To me that's not a serious manufacturing screw up of the sort that allegedly exists with the Rolex 32xx movements (been there, done that).

What matters more to me is whether there are systemic failures within a particular model -- if a certain model fails all the time due to some inherent movement defect. With Lange, I can't think of any model that has had long-term systemic failures. For example, I did have a very early Zeitwerk that stopped prematurely shortly after I got it. From what I remember, some other early ZW owners experienced this same thing. Lange said it was a lubrication issue and fixed it right away. To the best of my knowledge, that stopped happening after they straightened out the problem with the early deliveries. If it kept happening, we'd be hearing about it.

Your question about whether we pay too much due to reputational hype is interesting. I don't think of Lange as having any reputational hype -- at least none that reaches a critical mass level. Nobody has heard of Lange beyond a tiny number of people who are into watches due to their small production numbers. But still, all high-end mechanical watches like Lange objectively cost a ton of money and are 100% unnecessary, so in that sense we're always overpaying.


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## diracpoint (Oct 15, 2021)

Fwiw, absolute perfection does not exist, irrespective of the price tag. And, mechanical things do go wrong. So, in my opinion, the YT author had the correct approach.

The watch in question is extremely complex, despite it being a time-only (+PR) model. There is a long (1.5 hours) video on HSNY website where their watchmaker gives an idea of the level of complexity. It really doesn't take too much for this watch to malfunction.

Despite this complexity, reports of ZW malfunction is very rare on the web --- the current incident is probably the second or third report of ZW malfunction I've seen on the watch fora over the past > 12 years (since its release). These are just exceptions and not the norm, and only shows that the watchmakers are human! 😉


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## GrouchoM (Jul 11, 2013)

diracpoint said:


> Fwiw, absolute perfection does not exist, irrespective of the price tag. And, mechanical things do go wrong. So, in my opinion, the YT author had the correct approach.
> 
> The watch in question is extremely complex, despite it being a time-only (+PR) model. There is a long (1.5 hours) video on HSNY website where their watchmaker gives an idea of the level of complexity. It really doesn't take too much for this watch to malfunction.
> 
> Despite this complexity, reports of ZW malfunction is very rare on the web --- the current incident is probably the second or third report of ZW malfunction I've seen on the watch fora over the past > 12 years (since its release). These are just exceptions and not the norm, and only shows that the watchmakers are human!


Given how few are owned and used daily, that percentage of issues may be a fairly large compared to Omega/Rolex/etc.

Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect


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## watchenthusiastlondon (3 mo ago)

Das-Bimmer said:


> Did the video say how much it was going to be in repairs? I'm just curious what ALS would charge to repair a masterpiece like the ZW? I would assume it's the watch equivalent to repairing a McLaren F1 or Bugatti Veyron.


 £3,500


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## watchenthusiastlondon (3 mo ago)

Das-Bimmer said:


> Did the video say how much it was going to be in repairs? I'm just curious what ALS would charge to repair a masterpiece like the ZW? I would assume it's the watch equivalent to repairing a McLaren F1 or Bugatti Veyron.


£3,500


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## diracpoint (Oct 15, 2021)

GrouchoM said:


> Given how few are owned and used daily, that percentage of issues may be a fairly large compared to Omega/Rolex/etc.
> 
> Typos courtesy of Samsung Auto-Incorrect


It's possible, I guess, but hard to tell because we don't have the hard numbers! 🤗

Fwiw, my own experience has been pretty good so far. 10 months of almost daily wearing. Hope it stays that way! 🤞


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## diracpoint (Oct 15, 2021)

watchenthusiastlondon said:


> £3,500


Thanks for stopping by! Please give us an update when you get your watch back. Hopefully everything will go smoothly now!


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## precious time (May 27, 2011)

Thanks for posting. Beautiful, albeit loooong, video. The Zeitwerk is the coolest mass manufactured mechanical watch on the planet. However, not sure how much I can learn from someone who own four Lange & Söhne watches, and clearly several others.


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## mebiuspower (Sep 24, 2009)

watchenthusiastlondon said:


> £3,500


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## watchenthusiastlondon (3 mo ago)

Squashracquets said:


> Good point. You're right that the owner could tell the difference between the position of the screws before sending and as it came back to him from Wempe. But if you look at the Zeitwerk pictures on Lange's site, the screws are in different orientations in each picture. So it's hard to imagine that Lange could tell from the mere positions of the screws that it had been opened. Unless the screws were scarred, Lange must have been looking for something else.


Apparently, they have a sophisticated system / process and can tell whether a watch has been opened…


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## watchenthusiastlondon (3 mo ago)

diracpoint said:


> Thanks for stopping by! Please give us an update when you get your watch back. Hopefully everything will go smoothly now!


Will do. Have changed my outlook somewhat since posting the video & am less inclined to go back to wempe. When the watch is returned I think I will go to the Lange run boutique in Harrods…


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## JustWatchMe925 (4 mo ago)

Squashracquets said:


> Some here are saying the owner should have taken photographs before sending to Wempe, but I don't see how that would have helped. No picture would reveal whether the watch had been opened, and thart was the matter in dispute in this case.


I too watched the full video (just...I almost drifted off...) basically in the photo he took before he sent the watch for repair, you can see the movement looking pristine through the sapphire caseback.
On the photos sent back to him by ALS, you can clearly see the gasket on the caseback is nipped and there is a section of o-ring visible through the caseback. Also the screws were oriented differently and appeared to possibly be scratched. There was very clear evidence that the caseback had been removed and very poorly refitted after his photos were taken.


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## JustWatchMe925 (4 mo ago)

To save you all watching, his before photos left, photos from ALS right:


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## CFR (May 13, 2006)

JustWatchMe925 said:


> To save you all watching, his before photos left, photos from ALS right:


Thanks very much for these very helpful pics and for pointing us to the relevant part of the video! They should give you the watch as a reward for sitting through that entire video!

For those who want to just watch the "aha moment," watch from 21:07-23:00 (just 2 minutes).

Again, the take-home point is, *"Take back and front photos of every watch before handing it over for repair."* This is good advice!


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## JustWatchMe925 (4 mo ago)

CFR said:


> Thanks very much for these very helpful pics and for pointing us to the relevant part of the video! They should give you the watch as a reward for sitting through that entire video!
> 
> For those who want to just watch the "aha moment," watch from 21:07-23:00 (just 2 minutes).
> 
> Again, the take-home point is, *"Take back and front photos of every watch before handing it over for repair."* This is good advice!


Hahaha, there should certainly be some sort of reward...that's 32 minutes and 43 seconds of my life I'll never get back.
I'm sure it could have been summarised in all of 3 minutes, but yes - always take photos.
Although - this is a lot more obvious on this particular piece with the screws and display caseback - not a whole lot of use on something with a solid caseback and no point of reference...
If this had been a Rolex for example, it would have proved nothing unfortunately.


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## debussychopin (Feb 16, 2018)

I had time tonite to watch the video it is highly entertaining as the story was told extremely well. A+ in storytelling. 
At least you got it fixed for free. You're not going to get an admittance or an apology in reality, so at least the outcome is good.


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