# vintage zenith el primero 3019 PHC bridge signature question



## sempervivens

LouS has pointed out that the bridge of a 1970's vintage Zenith El Primero may be labelled in different ways.

The most elaborate signature is : "_Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels 3019 PHC_".

Others are signed "_3019 PHC Swiss_".

Thirdly there are those that are signed "_3019 PHC_".

Additionally I noticed that under the balance they may be signed "_B Swiss made_" or "_C Swiss made_".

My question is whether anybody has an explanation for these differences.

Note : later versions such as caliber 400 are simply signed "400", now in a small rectangular frame and in gold colour.


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## LouS

Good question - here's my take based on looking at my own sample of movements



sempervivens said:


> The most elaborate signature is : "_Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels 3019 PHC_".


These are the 3019PHCs in the original Zenith-branded El Primero watches, except those 17J ones exported to the US



sempervivens said:


> Others are signed "_3019 PHC Swiss_".


These are 3019PHCs that have been used in Movado Datrons and in the 17J export Zeniths



sempervivens said:


> Thirdly there are those that are signed "_3019 PHC_".


I haven't come across this



sempervivens said:


> Note : later versions such as caliber 400 are simply signed "400", now in a small rectangular frame and in gold colour.


THese are all "post-resurrection" movements


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## sempervivens

> Others are signed "3019 PHC Swiss".
> These are 3019PHCs that have been used in Movado Datrons and in the 17J export Zeniths


Correct in the sense that Movado Datrons and 17J export Zeniths may usually be signed "3019 PHC Swiss" on the bridge. But this doesn't explain why many of the early 31J Zenith El Primero's are also signed like that. I find it very unlikely that these would all be movements that were used in Movado Datrons or 17J Zenith El Primero's and which would have been transplanted to 31J Zeniths.

There are relatively many of these 'less elaborately signed bridges' around in vintage Zenith El Primero's. So I'm mainly wondering whether :
A these watches were made like that, i.e. they had the less elaborately signed bridges from the beginning, or
B these have been serviced at some point in their history and the movement was simply replaced during service with a new factory original Zenith 3019 PHC from the 1970's.



> Thirdly there are those that are signed "3019 PHC".
> I haven't some across this


Here is one example (two pics of the same watch in attachment) : and same thoughts as above apply.


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## LouS

sempervivens said:


> B these have been serviced at some point in their history and the movement was simply replaced during service with a new factory original Zenith 3019 PHC from the 1970's.


That would be my guess.

When I get the chance, I'll crack open some casebacks and verify my recollection about these.

Incidentally, 2 have just gone off to Zenith for service, inspired by M. Dufour's recent comments about vintage service -- I will update the forum as that progresses.


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## sempervivens

LouS said:


> That would be my guess.
> 
> When I get the chance, I'll crack open some casebacks and verify my recollection about these.
> 
> Incidentally, 2 have just gone off to Zenith for service, inspired by M. Dufour's recent comments about vintage service -- I will update the forum as that progresses.


that 'd be great Lou. The only chance to find out may be to verify as many NOS samples as possible.

Actually I have put three questions now:

_1. why_ didn't Zenith sign all of the 3019 PHC's bridges in the same way ? to save themselves some extra trouble and costs ? or are there other reasons why there are three (3) +- different types of signatures on 3019 PHC's bridges ?
2. possibly connected with the previous question : was there a logic in the use they made of the differently signed bridges ? Were all the early Zenith El Primero's fitted with the more elaborately signed bridge when they left the factory ? Were the bridges with the shorter signatures then only used for Movados, 17J Zeniths, and/or as spare movements for repairs ?
3. and why the "_B Swiss made_" or "_C Swiss made_" under the balance ??

Even within the company there may be nobody who can reply to these questions...

Two more pics in attachment, from different watches signed "_3019 PHC_".


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## Hartmut Richter

Can't really comment much on that. What amazes me is the "B Swiss made" or "C Swiss made" under the balance - I always thought that's where Zenith put the movement serial number (they did on mine - but that's a Cal. 410 from 1996).

Hartmut Richter


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## Gombrich

I am not sure there is a definitive answer to this but certainly the earliest ones seem to have the full inscription as on my A386 from 1969 ("B Swiss Made" under the balance):










A couple of years later the A3818 has only "3019 PHC Swiss" with "C Swiss Made":










Rolling forward to 1975 and both mine from that year have just "3019 PHC", both with C Swiss Made beneath the balance.


















Does this take us any further forward?

Dave


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## LouS

Okay, here is the inventory from my examples (that I can open)

All Primeros from the first model run (A 384, A 385, A 386) have bridge inscription "Zenith 31 jewels 3019PHC" and "Swiss Made B" under the balance wheel, as does an A 3817 from the following model run. 

Surprise finding from an A 788: "Zenith Seventeen 17 jewels Unadjusted 3019PHC" but also "Swiss Made B"

In the MOvados, all 3 have "Swiss 3019PHC." The under-the-balance inscription is "Swiss Made" with no letter designation on the earliest of these and "Swiss Made A" in theother two.

anyone else want to stir in more data before we draw some comclusions?


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## sempervivens

Thank you friends for your joint efforts that are very helpful. Dave has made an excellent case for a simple and logical chronological explanation. To complicate things a bit more, Lou has found out that there are even three more possibilities. In the meantime I've also tried to have a look at as many movement shots as I could find (one more in attachment). Future observations may shed more light. For now, I'll try to piece a few things together :

*The following 3019 PHC bridge signatures have been observed* (so far) :

1. "3019 PHC Swiss" (no letter designation under the balance)
2. "3019 PHC Swiss" ("A Swiss Made" under balance)
3. "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels" ("A Swiss Made" under balance)
4. *"3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)*
5. "3019 PHC Zenith 17 jewels unadjusted" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)
6. *"3019 PHC Swiss" ("B Swiss Made" under balance)*
7. *"3019 PHC" ("C Swiss Made" under the balance)*

*These have been seen (and are most likely to be found) in the following watches* :

1. one of the earliest Movado Datrons
2. early Movado Datrons
3. seen in one Zenith El Primero A385
4. *most of the earliest Zenith El Primero's (1969-1971), still quite common for the next model run of Zenith El Primero's (1971-1972)*
5. seen in one Zenith El Primero A788 
6. *often in 1971-1972 Zenith El Primero's, rarely in (1969-1971) Zenith El Primero's (service replacements?), also seen in 1973-75 Zenith El Primero's*, 
7. *general rule for the last model run of vintage Zenith El Primero's (1973-1975), also to be seen in some 1971-1972 Zenith El Primero's*

Note : the three most common signatures are shown above in bold characters;

*These observations should be regarded as no more than a working hypothetis.*

Additionally, and as already mentioned, there seem to be exceptions to the general rules : 
- some of the oldest Zenith El Primero's (1969-71) have the intermediate signature "3019 PHC Swiss" ("B Swiss Made" under balance). Especially for these it can't be ruled out that the original movements were replaced by 'new old stock' 3019 PHC movements : that could easily have been done during service by Zenith say in the early 1980's, when they still had a stock of 3019 PHC movements.
- some of the intermediate Zenith El Primero's (1971-72) have the later signature "3019 PHC" (without "Swiss"). Again it is impossible to tell whether these were like that from the start or perhaps the movement was replaced during service.
- some of the later Zenith El Primero's (1973-75) have the earlier signature "3019 PHC Zenith thirty-one 31 jewels". I've seen more than one Zenith El Primero "Pilot/Diver" like that, this is usually considered a later model (but it is also possible that Zenith started working on this model as early as 1971)
- as mentioned, the later Zenith El Primero's (1973-75) may also be signed "3019 PHC Swiss".


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## chevyt1946

This is the movement on my 71 El Primero Pilot (01-0180-415). Right now the watch is receiving full maintenance. I'll show you some pictures after the service


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## chevyt1946

Another picture


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## ezinternet

First off, I do *not* have the answer to the "B" or "C" marking question. The question reminded me of something I recently found on the Omega Constellation Collectors blog about mysterious markings on early Omega movements.

The 500-series movements sometimes have an omega symbol on the bridge with an engraved digit 1 or 2 within the omega. After a bit of sleuthing, Desmond suggests (discovered) that Omega had different parts for different dial heights used with these movements. The numeric indication was a "revision" number for the informed watchmaker, taken together with the Omega factory notices. Not all parts were equally interchangeable and with the digit the correct part could be ordered or used for that movement in a particular dial configuration.

It's an interesting mystery story (for Omega fans, at least) in a PDF format file that will download from: http://www.mediafire.com/?o9m1qyofr39ax9w


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## D N Ravenna

ezinternet said:


> ...Not all parts were equally interchangeable and with the digit the correct part could be ordered or used for that movement in a particular dial configuration.
> 
> It's an interesting mystery story (for Omega fans, at least) in a PDF format file that will download from: http://www.mediafire.com/?o9m1qyofr39ax9w


As someone who worked on watches, I really hated coming across hand-fitted parts.

Thanks for sharing!
Dan


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## sempervivens

ezinternet said:


> First off, I do *not* have the answer to the "B" or "C" marking question. The question reminded me of something I recently found on the Omega Constellation Collectors blog about mysterious markings on early Omega movements.
> 
> The 500-series movements sometimes have an omega symbol on the bridge with an engraved digit 1 or 2 within the omega. After a bit of sleuthing, Desmond suggests (discovered) that Omega had different parts for different dial heights used with these movements. The numeric indication was a "revision" number for the informed watchmaker, taken together with the Omega factory notices. Not all parts were equally interchangeable and with the digit the correct part could be ordered or used for that movement in a particular dial configuration.
> 
> It's an interesting mystery story (for Omega fans, at least) in a PDF format file that will download from: http://www.mediafire.com/?o9m1qyofr39ax9w


I read that story, Desmond has a great blog with lots of interesting information.


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## sempervivens

I'm wondering what the signature on the Zenith Espada is : both the A7817 and 01.0040.418.

Is there an 'elaborate' signature on the bridge with '3019 PHF Zenith' + the jewel count; or a shorter signature with just '3019 PHF' (with or without 'swiss')? And a 'B Swis made' or 'C Swiss made' under the balance ?

Chris and Dave, can you inform us ?


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## Gombrich

No problem SV. On the 01.0040.418 it's a simple 3019 PHF on the bridge and a "C Swiss Made" under the balance.










Dave


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## DED

Hey guys,
You can add a 3019 PHC SWISS with a C SWISS MADE under the balance on my A3818..
Cheers,
David


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## John Chris

sempervivens said:


> I'm wondering what the signature on the Zenith Espada is : both the A7817 and 01.0040.418.
> 
> Is there an 'elaborate' signature on the bridge with '3019 PHF Zenith' + the jewel count; or a shorter signature with just '3019 PHF' (with or without 'swiss')? And a 'B Swis made' or 'C Swiss made' under the balance ?
> 
> Chris and Dave, can you inform us ?


Don't have a photo of my A7817 movement and alas am not in a position to open the case right now - sorry!

Chris


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## sempervivens

Thanks Dave, that is wonderful. The 'short' signature is not a surprise for a Zenith Espada from the 1973-75 period.

For the A7817 from 1971 I would expect maybe an additional 'Swiss' on the bridge.

@ Chris : I understand. Let us know when you have an occasion to find out. (Maybe one of those rubber balls would be best to open the case).

In the meantime thanks to David for another confirmation that a 'short' '3019 PHC Swiss' with 'C Swiss Made' under the balance is general for 1971-72 Zenith El Primero's.
b-)



Gombrich said:


> No problem SV. On the 01.0040.418 it's a simple 3019 PHF on the bridge and a "C Swiss Made" under the balance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dave


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## sempervivens

For the sake of completeness, let me add to this thread that there even exists a possibility of a cal. 3019 PHC movement that was not signed "3019 PHC" at all, as can be seen in Daniel's Pilot, which dates to ca. 1975 (at least the caseback is signed '75' on the inside):


























(see also the thread No signed on 3019 PHC movement )


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## VinDefy

Looking for some information on my 17 jewels El Primero (see as well *this thread*), I came across this interesting thread.

First of all I see that I have some hybrid El Primero between type 6 and 7 as described above by sempervivens given that my 01.0210.415 has both "3019 PHC Swiss" and "C Swiss made".

Secondly, I have an additional question, looking at my El Primero and the pictures of the other El Primero movements, I was wondering whether the letter or figure on the left under the balance wheel has any meaning? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about the letter above "SWISS MADE", but about the letter or figure on the left of "C SWISS MADE" on my picture below. As you can see, mine is showing an 8. On other pictures I see letters such as A or C. Any idea what the meaning of this might be?









Thanks.
Kind regards,
VinDefy


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## sempervivens

VinDefy said:


> Looking for some information on my 17 jewels El Primero (see as well *this thread*), I came across this interesting thread.
> 
> First of all I see that I have some hybrid El Primero between type 6 and 7 as described above by sempervivens given that my 01.0210.415 has both "3019 PHC Swiss" and "C Swiss made".
> 
> Secondly, I have an additional question, looking at my El Primero and the pictures of the other El Primero movements, I was wondering whether the letter or figure on the left under the balance wheel has any meaning? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about the letter above "SWISS MADE", but about the letter or figure on the left of "C SWISS MADE" on my picture below. As you can see, mine is showing an 8. On other pictures I see letters such as A or C. Any idea what the meaning of this might be?
> 
> Thanks.
> Kind regards,
> VinDefy


Thanks for posting that. I doubt anybody knows what the 8 stands for. We don't even know what the A or B or C means.


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## MacRulez4Ever

VinDefy said:


> Looking for some information on my 17 jewels El Primero (see as well *this thread*), I came across this interesting thread.
> 
> First of all I see that I have some hybrid El Primero between type 6 and 7 as described above by sempervivens given that my 01.0210.415 has both "3019 PHC Swiss" and "C Swiss made".
> 
> Secondly, I have an additional question, looking at my El Primero and the pictures of the other El Primero movements, I was wondering whether the letter or figure on the left under the balance wheel has any meaning? For the avoidance of doubt, I am not talking about the letter above "SWISS MADE", but about the letter or figure on the left of "C SWISS MADE" on my picture below. As you can see, mine is showing an 8. On other pictures I see letters such as A or C. Any idea what the meaning of this might be?
> 
> View attachment 1421797
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> Kind regards,
> VinDefy


Hello i have an el primero a384 with another marking on the same place as your (8)
But on mine it say DC I think or maybe DE ???
And I have no letter round the swiss made text.
Take a look ....









Other pics on same watch









































Skickas från min IFÅN 5S via Tapatalk


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## BlondeNV

Good evening,

This caught my eye and I did not see anybody mention it in the thread. 31 & seventeen are both present. Any thoughts?

Thanks!


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## Hartmut Richter

Replacement parts! At first sight, the obvious assumption would be: replacement rotor (since it is the easiest thing to replace) - but in view of all the jewels in the chronograph mechanism, I suspect that the chronograph bridge with "SEVENTEEN JEWELS" on it has been replaced (or an incorrect one installed from the start).

The El Primero came in 17 and 31 jewel versions. One might think that the 17 jewel versions were destined for the US since there were customs restrictions on the jewel counts (high jewelled movements cost more to import) but since this movement wasn't imported into the US without the rest of the watch around it (and for the most part not imported at all when Zenith Electronics had control over Zenith SA, plus thereafter too), this doesn't apply. I do know that Movado tended to use the 17J version (maybe they imported into the US.....).

Hartmut Richter


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## BlondeNV

Thank you Hartmut!


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## Acme

Reviving this old thread once again. 

I got my Pacific EP back from service recently. I was sure that it runs a Cal. 400, but the service pict told me otherwise!




















I was aware that some early DeLucas are fitted with the 3019 PHC, but as far as I know the Pacific was introduced one year later (1988 vs 1989).

Have you seen such a late-onset use of 3019 PHC?

All input is appreciated as always!

Regards, Acme


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## Hartmut Richter

I ceretainly have never seen one so young with so old a movement. I can only presume that they were using up old movement stock. 

Hartmut Richter


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## sempervivens

Congratulations! I would have thought they had sold most of the remaining stock earlier in the eighties but it seems not.


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