# If you could only have 2 oils for watch serviciing



## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

What would you choose?

I know my answer, and believe it's pretty cut & dried, but I'm curious to whether there's any alternative view. So, if you were restricted to two lubricants, but still had to service the whole range of watches from antique pocket to full chronos and modern quartz, what lubes would you choose and why?

It's not an entirely idle question btw. 

First, there are occasional newbies around who might want a very basic start without investing the several hundred ££££ on lubes that many of us have sitting on our bench. It would be useful for them to know what are considered the truly indispensable range which, while not providing peak results, will give an acceptable chance of success without causing damage.

There's also the matter of thinking about what you're doing. I spent several years repairing aircraft, where though was strongly discouraged. If you could teach a monkey to slavishly "follow the book" then maintaining aircraft would be as cheap as chimps (please excuse that  ). There's a similar problem with "use the oiling chart" - it may be the correct / best way to lubricate a watch but simply following it without thinking about the individual qualities doesn't require any actual understanding of what you're doing or why. It just requires the ability to read, which becomes a problem where instructions aren't available.

So, any takers?


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

HP-1300-because it could replace 9010,molykote,8300,jisma etc, less amplitude but stillno wear or less wear would appear
9415- oiling of the escapement is essential and i think this product is unreplaceable for that


br
emso


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## MNTN (Feb 4, 2013)

This question makes me sad inside, even though it is a very interesting question.


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

emso said:


> HP-1300-because it could replace 9010,molykote,8300,jisma etc, less amplitude but stillno wear or less wear would appear
> 9415- oiling of the escapement is essential and i think this product is unreplaceable for that
> 
> br
> emso


Exactly what I was going to post and the most used oil I have is HP-1300 by miles.

I have eight oils out day to day in two of those bergeon oil stands. It is rare I have to go to the cupboard for any of the others (excluding epilame, lubeta etc)


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## Snakepottery (Nov 4, 2011)

9010, 9145
Although if the newbie could push the boat out, add in molykote!

Snake


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## emso (Jan 14, 2008)

dom_ said:


> Exactly what I was going to post and the most used oil I have is HP-1300 by miles.
> 
> I have eight oils out day to day in two of those bergeon oil stands. It is rare I have to go to the cupboard for any of the others (excluding epilame, lubeta etc)


Yes me too i have 10 oils,but still i dont know if i answered correctly Joe's question as those which i mention are greases not oils     
Regarding the 9010 i would not as it travels a lot and you will have dry spots very soon on some points you need it very much for example chrono hammer


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## vbomega (Jan 31, 2010)

9010 and HP-1300 for me.


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## kanikune (Nov 21, 2012)

I'll take little bit of radical approach with hp1300 and barrel brake grease.


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

emso said:


> [...] i dont know if i answered correctly Joe's question as those which i mention are greases not oils
> Regarding the 9010 i would not as it travels a lot and you will have dry spots very soon on some points you need it very much for example chrono hammer


Greases are fine - maybe I should have said "lubricants" instea of oils, but that just sounded a little pretentious 

Interesting that some are going for 9415 over 9010 - personally I'm with vbomega on choosing 9010 and HP1300.

Seems that HP1300 (would have accepted D5 for the cost conscious btw  ) is a bit of a no brainer but, to me, 9145 is just a little too specialised. Its performance in what it was designed for - basically staying put on pallets - is remarkable but you _can_ get satisfactory results from 9010 even on high beat with scrupulous cleanliness and absolutely minimal application. On the other hand, I'm not convinced by 9145 for balance pivots or anywhere in the train, where 9010 comes into its own.


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

I should have said, I never use 9415 on anything except pallets. But it is so good at this that I would use HP-1300 on everything else just so 9415 could be my second choice.


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## kanikune (Nov 21, 2012)

I use (of course) 9415 for pallets too. 
Omega coax recommends (or recommended, haven't checked the latest info) hp1300 on the pallet. 
In a "2 lub approach, is 9415 so much superior over hp1300?

What's the kinematic visco of 9415 "in oil mode"?


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

kanikune said:


> I use (of course) 9415 for pallets too.
> Omega coax recommends (or recommended, haven't checked the latest info) hp1300 on the pallet.
> In a "2 lub approach, is 9415 so much superior over hp1300?
> 
> What's the kinematic visco of 9415 "in oil mode"?


Yes HP-1300 without the colouring agent. I spoke to Roger Smith about this who also oils his pallets in his coaxial, he said he used D5.


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## GeneJockey (Oct 7, 2010)

In 1950, the head of Elgin's Watchmakers College, writing to professional watchmakers in the Elgin Service Bulletin, prescribed 2 lubricants - Petroleum Jelly for the keyless works, and Elgin M56b for everything else, from lubricating the mainspring to the pallet stones.


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

GeneJockey said:


> In 1950, the head of Elgin's Watchmakers College, writing to professional watchmakers in the Elgin Service Bulletin, prescribed 2 lubricants - Petroleum Jelly for the keyless works, and Elgin M56b for everything else, from lubricating the mainspring to the pallet stones.


Funnily enough, that was part of the reason behind my question. In the good ol' days a bit of porpoise oil served for everything, then people started getting fancy with things like petroleum jelly, now you could probably spend as much on oil as you would on a half decent cleaning machine if you went out and bought everything that's recommended for every movement in one go.

Which got me wondering what the minimum "rationalisation" might be to obtain serviceable results but do no harm. I couldn't quite get it down to one in my own mind (apparently harvesting porpoises is frowned on nowadays  ) but was curious what others might manage.

Incidentally, back to Dom's point about HP 1300 for "everythinge else" for a minute. That's a fair comment but I tend to get a lot of vintage ladies movements through and I feel I'd lose more using 1300 throughout them than I'd gain using 9415 on the relatively few high beats I see that would really benefit from the 9415.

Then again, that's probably cheating within my own terms of reference because I'm including "the jobs I see most" in my considerations rather than a fully objective "anything that arrives"!


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi there,

I use meanwhile just two oils and one grease, and the only reason why I don't restrict to one oil is that my two bottles will survive me. No joke: I changed in the Incablocs of one watch 10 times between thick and thin oil, and tha average reduction of the amplitude was just 4° with the thick oil - not enough to justify the second oil, at least for a hobbyist like me.

Oil cookers would be crazy if they'd offer an all-purpose oil - need I tell why? So they create special oils for every spot in every mechanism,, and if you study the data sheets you'll get no clue why you can't mix oil types and application spots randomly. So finally everyone is happy with the lubricants he uses, disregarding the number of bottles in his shelf.

Finally the oil cookers can be proud to make everyone happy, and so they deceive to become happy by selling all this miracle stuff.

BTW: Most believe that MoS2-filled lubricants prevent wear. I suspect, the black color of MoS2 just prevents that wear is noticed.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

Dr Ranfft, what you say is heresy! Although, I suspect, heresy with more than a small grain of truth in it


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Joe,



Joe Horner said:


> ...what you say is heresy!


Maybe, but the jubilance of the makers and the applause of their fans screams for a counterweight.



Joe Horner said:


> ...with more than a small grain of truth in it


More a hunk than a grain. Some makers want us to believe we can have both, fast spreading for efficient lubrication and slow spreading to keep oil in place. I tend to trust makers who admit that fast and slow is a contradiction (surprise!), at least without epilame.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

I worked with a CMW who used "clock oil" and "watch oil" as his primary lubricants. He supplemented that with "stem grease", "graphite braking lube", "mainspring lube" and "silicone grease" (latter for gaskets only). He did not use epilame. Can a movement be serviced with only two lubricants...yes. Do you need every "recommended" lubricant?...NO. However my minimum complement would include a "light oil", a "heavy oil", setting grease, braking grease, and a gasket lubricant. A newbie can do this without breaking the bank. Of course, as important as what lubricant is "where" and "how much". 3-in-1 household oil applied in the correct amounts and locations might do a tolerable job for some movements. Good topic Joe. Regards, BG


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## Ben_hutcherson (Aug 27, 2011)

Granted 99% of what comes across my bench consists of 16 and 18 size pocket watches, but I get along quite well with using 9415 for pallets, Moebius 8300 for keyless works and mainsprings, and Elgin M56b for everything else.


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## ChrisTheEngineer (Nov 21, 2015)

I went through this exercise several years ago, as a hobbyist. Chose HP-1300 & 9010. Plus silicone grease for gaskets and something for small sliding parts. Availability contributed to choices. Decades ago, when sewing machine oil was forbidden, I used 3-in-1.


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## aditya (Nov 21, 2006)

dom_ said:


> Yes HP-1300 without the colouring agent. I spoke to Roger Smith about this who also oils his pallets in his coaxial, he said he used D5.


Hang on, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of the co-axial escapement?

Anyway, I am self taught. Years ago after a brief and disastrous flirtation with some locally made 'Anchor' oil (which turned to jelly in the watch within a week) I invested in a bottle each of 9010 and 8200. Later, when I started working on automatics I bought a bottle of 8217 braking grease. That's all I use. I have, however, been wondering if I should buy 9415. At the moment I use 9010 on the pallets.

Kind regards

Aditya


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## MNTN (Feb 4, 2013)

No, it doesn't defeat the purpose. It simply doesn't let the watch run as well as it could. Friction is still reduced when compared to the Swiss lever escapement. 

Apparently George Daniels cleaning solutions weren't clean enough for the Swiss. They decided there was some lubricant on the pallet stones in Mr. Daniels watch - left as residue. 

Quite angering.


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## Archer (Apr 23, 2009)

MNTN said:


> No, it doesn't defeat the purpose. It simply doesn't let the watch run as well as it could. Friction is still reduced when compared to the Swiss lever escapement.
> 
> Apparently George Daniels cleaning solutions weren't clean enough for the Swiss. They decided there was some lubricant on the pallet stones in Mr. Daniels watch - left as residue.
> 
> Quite angering.


I'm not sure you fully understand the stated purpose of the oil. It is not for sliding friction (at least according to Omega) it is for lessening the impact, so it acts as a cushion. How successful it is at that is not certain in my view, having serviced a pile of them...just finished one yesterday in fact. Oiling the escapement or not makes zero difference to how the watch runs. It can run dry and your timing machine results will look exactly the same as after you have oiled it. Unlike with a lever escapement, with a co-axial amplitude and timekeeping are not affected in the slightest by oiling the escapement - this was stated by Omega in the training and I have verified it many times myself.

However if the oil cushion fails and the very small drops of oil go away (or someone just doesn't bother to oil them), you end up with pretty horrendous wear. This is just one example that has been on my bench - in this case the upper co-axial wheel teeth are worn away...



Here is another watch where the lower co-axial wheel teeth are worn:



These are not isolated by any means. Add to that the sticky residue building up on the intermediate co-axial wheels on the 2 level escapement design:



I'm honestly at a point with these that I really don't want to be bothered servicing them anymore. They do take more time, partly because on the 2 level design you have 30 individual oiling points on the escapement that have to be done precisely and under 50X magnification.

I do agree that the real point behind the co-axial is not defeated by any of this, because as a marketing tool for differentiating the brand from others it has worked very well with Omega's plan to move up the food chain. Omega's stated reason for it (extended service intervals) is questionable, since even if this worked as well as they wanted most watches that come to me for service aren't on my bench ONLY because the escapement is dry...

Extending the service interval of just one part of the watch (even if it's an important part) isn't really going to make a huge difference in the end in my experience.

Cheers, Al


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

Roger Smith said without oil metal dust builds up on the coax wheel very quickly. I had read before that George Daniels used gold as it helped cushion the blow and as previously stated, he disliked modern cleaning methods for 'drying' out the metals too much.


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## aditya (Nov 21, 2006)

Thank you for these images Archer. It is fascinating to see how the co-axial has been performing in the wild. Of course, it is early days for the co-axial. The lever has been improved upon for more than 250 years now. I suppose, in terms of potential, we can compare the co-axial to Mudge's lever.

I wonder if the escape wheel in a chronometer escapement is oiled. And, if not, why does it not suffer from such wear?

Kind regards

Aditya


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## dom_ (Jan 29, 2012)

That depends, an Arnold detent I would oil but I wouldn't oil an Earnshaw. This is due to Arnold's having a longer impulse than the Earnshaw.


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## Alden (Jul 24, 2015)

This is probably an over simplification question, but I have an old Sea Gull that I have been tinkering around with, and I can see the works are completely dry (it's around 40 years old) -- so my question is this, if I were to try to lube it myself, what is the single best all around lube to use, and is there a video anywhere that I could watch to show me where and how to apply the lube? 

I have a bottle of Mobius Multi Purpose and one of Liquid Bearings sitting in my cart ready to order. Are either of these any good?


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## Snakepottery (Nov 4, 2011)

Alden said:


> This is probably an over simplification question, but I have an old Sea Gull that I have been tinkering around with, and I can see the works are completely dry (it's around 40 years old) -- so my question is this, if I were to try to lube it myself, what is the single best all around lube to use, and is there a video anywhere that I could watch to show me where and how to apply the lube?
> 
> I have a bottle of Mobius Multi Purpose and one of Liquid Bearings sitting in my cart ready to order. Are either of these any good?


Yes it is a bit of an over simplification.
The easiest analogy is that you have a car and it needs a service. They will use one specification of oil for the engine, another for the gearbox, another for the rear diff etc. You see what I mean?

So the correct answer is that you need at least 3 different oils. However, it is your watch, it's 40 years old, are you going to shell out £80 on oils? Nope! Not unless you intend to service a lot of watches.
So, maybe something like Moebius 8000 for the pivots, and a heavier oil for the rest. I'm not familiar with the two you are looking at.

Just remember that this is not a recommended solution for your super rare, high precision chronometer!

Snake

Ps, how are you going to clean it prior to oiling?

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## Alden (Jul 24, 2015)

Snakepottery said:


> Yes it is a bit of an over simplification.
> The easiest analogy is that you have a car and it needs a service. They will use one specification of oil for the engine, another for the gearbox, another for the rear diff etc. You see what I mean?
> 
> So the correct answer is that you need at least 3 different oils. However, it is your watch, it's 40 years old, are you going to shell out £80 on oils? Nope! Not unless you intend to service a lot of watches.
> ...


Thanks! Yes, that is another question I have. How do I clean it before oiling it?


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## Snakepottery (Nov 4, 2011)

More money to spend I'm afraid! Either an ultrasonic cleaner or see if you can find an old L&R or similar rotary type 3 jar cleaner.
Then you will need waterless cleaning fluid and waterless rinse.

I use a 3 jar rotary machine, 1950's Machine and love it! If the old oil is very gummy, you will likely need to use peg wood to clean it off then run it through the cleaner again until it's spotless!

Snake



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## Alden (Jul 24, 2015)

Snakepottery said:


> More money to spend I'm afraid! Either an ultrasonic cleaner or see if you can find an old L&R or similar rotary type 3 jar cleaner.
> Then you will need waterless cleaning fluid and waterless rinse.
> 
> I use a 3 jar rotary machine, 1950's Machine and love it! If the old oil is very gummy, you will likely need to use peg wood to clean it off then run it through the cleaner again until it's spotless!
> ...


Never heard of a rotary jar cleaner. I HAVE heard of an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, however, and they are readily available.

So do you remove the entire movement and drop it in, or does it have to be disassembled first? Or perhaps you just open it up and drop the entire watch into the cleaner? Seems like that might play hell with the crystal.

I really have to watch a video about this sometime.


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## decipher28 (May 2, 2010)

you don't necessarily have to have a watch cleaning machine to clean the watch movement you can do it by hand if you wish.There is plenty of information available out there,either on the net or in watchmaking books that describe how to do this.

Watch cleaning machines such as elma super elite,rm90,greiner acs900,l&r tempo 400,national watch company,benrus,etc are a more convenient and quicker method of cleaning movements and are ideally suited to people who service watches on a regular basis i.e professional watchmakers.

and yes to get a movement scrupulously clean you need to disassemble all of the parts.


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## Alden (Jul 24, 2015)

Thank you both for your replies. I'm very interested in learning how to do this, but I have precious little time for it right now. I squeeze it in whenever I can. Hopefully when I have some larger blocks of free time soon I will be able to start on this. 

The watch is running fairly well. I have been trying to regulate it, it was running a bit slow, losing about 7 minutes a week, then I adjusted it and it was running a bit fast, about 3 minutes a week, so I tried to reverse that and it went way back to losing about an hour a week, and so on... I have it back to running just a bit fast now, and I'm going to leave it alone. It looks like it's going to be off about 5 minutes per week, which is not that bad, so I'm going to leave it at that.


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## amoles (Apr 16, 2008)

I would say PML or KT22 and 9010


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

I am no watchmaker but i do service my own watches from time to time.
Last one i did it was my beater vostok komandriskie (hand wind) cal 2414a.
i use moebius 8000 on fast moving jeweled pivots (escapement, balance,etc) and SAE 85W-140 gear oil on high load slow moving parts (mainspring barel, arbour, etc.). For keyless i use general purpose permatex synthetic grease as seen in attached pics (both grases are almost the same but color and gives a wonderfull gliding feeling when i wind the watch).
My good old komandirskie works like a champ and it deviates only 5-7 sec/day.
I might make a couple of enemies here but swiss expensive oils are just snake oil specially developed to make the user feel good about himself ( swiss got the marketing right tough  even swiss farts smell better).
I bought into their marketing when i bought my moebius 8000 bottle for 15$ canadian shipped. You could probably replace it with any good synthetic 5w30 or 5w20 engine oil and never see any difference.
In my logic, an oil that works under extreme pressure and heat in a car engine or gearbox for hundreds of thousands if not hundred of milions of revolutions, it will work on any small extremely slow moving bearings under normal temperature and very small load.


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

By the way ! Sae 85w140 has about the same viscosity as the moebius 8200


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## TomBombadil (Oct 27, 2011)

We have some lovely oily discussions. I'm not sure I'd use motor oil on my prized watches unless there had been some good testing. One issue re-motor oil is spreading which in an engine is pretty much a requirement:

TED'S TECH: Oil Migration - Moebius vs. Mobil

TED'S TECH: An Experiment in Oil Migration on Metal Surfaces

Tom


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

TomBombadil said:


> We have some lovely oily discussions. I'm not sure I'd use motor oil on my prized watches unless there had been some good testing. One issue re-motor oil is spreading which in an engine is pretty much a requirement:
> 
> TED'S TECH: Oil Migration - Moebius vs. Mobil
> 
> ...


Actually i did some testing with the 85w-140 that i did put on an old hard drive as seen in the picture about 1 week ago !
No migration seen in 1 week ! It stays there where i put it

Ted's tech did it on a piece of crystal on witch the oil has no adherence ! But on metal that us more porous than glass is stays there where you put it


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## TomBombadil (Oct 27, 2011)

Dearest IronBrain. 

The second link shows substantial oil migration due to gravity after 36 hours on metal. 
Jewels, and highly polished surfaces/pinions are more like glass/crystal so the first link is still relevant.
In addition there are many other factors that have been considered like vaporization - low temperature functionality etc.

I'd love to see any pictures of tests you do etc.

But, hey ho, I'm all for alternative oils if they prove satisfactory - Tom


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

TomBombadil said:


> Dearest IronBrain.
> 
> The second link shows substantial oil migration due to gravity after 36 hours on metal.
> Jewels, and highly polished surfaces/pinions are more like glass/crystal so the first link is still relevant.
> ...


You do have a point there but the viscosity of the 5w30 oil he used is 67cst at 40degrees while the mob9010 is 150cst at 20degrees.

The car oil in this comparaison is like running watter compared to the moebius


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## TomBombadil (Oct 27, 2011)

Hi IronBrain - Clearly they were just some tests to get a feel of the issues - and it would be interesting to see comparisons at the same viscosity but it was interesting that the oil migrated upwards against gravity in Ted's test. Your test is on quite a sized drop - quite different to the tiny amounts used in watchmaking - I don't think I would see that as a reliable test - did you test it vertically against gravity or move/spin/vibrate it etc?

Tom


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## Samantha (May 14, 2010)

I will stay with my tried and true watch oils and greases. No experimenting or risk taking for this girl! 
Samantha


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> By the way ! Sae 85w140 has about the same viscosity as the moebius 8200


Sure.

In what alternate universe?


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> You do have a point there but the viscosity of the 5w30 oil he used is 67cst at 40degrees while the mob9010 is 150cst at 20degrees.
> The car oil in this comparaison is like running watter compared to the moebius


What is the kinematic viscosity of this particular 5w30 @ 20C?


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

pithy said:


> IronBrain said:
> 
> 
> > By the way ! Sae 85w140 has about the same viscosity as the moebius 8200
> ...


There you go !!!

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gear_oil_sae_85w-140

people use anythingfrom 9010 to solid grease in the mainspring so viscosity of the 85w is more than adequate in MY OPPINION .

I am not pretending that it is better than specially developed watch oil but i think that its more than enough to lubricate the watch for most non profesionals servicing theyr own watches.
If i did invested a year salary into a patek i would not even touch it and always bring it to the profesionals but for cheappies seikos 5, vostoks, orients etc, i think that it does the job.
Of course, this is MY OPPINION ONLY and i might be wrong but after opening my vostok 3 years later the mouvement was top notch with no wear and very precise.
Cleanned all parts in lighter fluid, regreased and now it ticks like a champ.

I mean cmon in old times watchmakers were using whale oil to grease the watch and the it was fine . I really do belive that a modern mineral gear oil is bettar than whale oil or petroleum jelly


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

As someone who also (professionally) repairs clocks I can say for a fact that a clock that was last oiled using "proper" clock oil will be in better condition than one oiled with just about any general purpose alternatives.

I sometimes see clocks where the entire back plate is covered in a thin greasy film and _every single time_ it's one where the owner (or, often, the owner's dad before he inherited it) gave it an occasional "just needs a lube" using whatever he had in his garage / shed.

The most recent one was a clock I inherited from my own parents earlier this year, which had been kept running since I was a child by a bit of 20w50 every couple of years. If it hadn't been for its sentimental value - and the fact that I don't charge myself for my own time - it would have been a write off. Quite apart from the expected bushings it needed 4 re-pivots, barrel- and barrel-cover bushes because it was essentially running dry all that time as the oil migrated away from the pivots onto the plates and pinions.

Much as I loved my dad, and despite learning my love of all things mechanical from him, the damage his (well intentioned) use of motor oil cause over 40 years or so was horrible to see.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

*Better luck in the future.*



IronBrain said:


> . . . . By the way ! Sae 85w140 has about the same viscosity as the moebius 8200


No it doesn't!

Moebius 8200 has a kinematic viscosity of 46 cSt @ 40C

Your own MotoMaster Extreme Pressure 85w140 has a kinematic viscosity of 348 cSt @40°C

lol.



IronBrain said:


> You do have a point there but the viscosity of the 5w30 oil he used is 67cst at 40degrees while the mob9010 is 150cst at 20degrees. The car oil in this comparaison is like running watter compared to the moebius


No it isn't.

The kinematics viscosity of Moebius 9010 @ 20C is 150 cSt.

The kinematic viscosity of the sae 5w30 is @ 20C is 167 cSt.

lol.


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

*Re: Better luck in the future.*

Observation: In almost all lubrication threads the discussion channels towards _*viscosity *_as though it bears a linear relation to effectiveness of a lubricant in reduction of coefficient of friction. It would seem that there are at least three properties of lubricants that should be considered: viscosity (flow), adhesion, and effect in reducing friction across a specified temperature range of use. While these properties are not unrelated, I doubt that there is a linear relation between any of them. Case in point: PTFE is a solid at ambient temperatures...so much for viscosity...yet a very "slick" substance and effective lubricant for many applications. At the end of the day, I'd like a lubricant that stayed put, reduced friction to zero, and did not affect tolerance between surfaces. I believe that Mssr Breguet was looking for the same substance. Regards, BG


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

*Re: Better luck in the future.*



BenchGuy said:


> Observation: In almost all lubrication threads the discussion channels towards _*viscosity *_as though it bears a linear relation to effectiveness of a lubricant in reduction of coefficient of friction. . . .


Could that be because factory recommended lubricants are by in large specified by speed and load and as the speed decreases and the load increases the proscribed viscosity increases?

Prospero Anno Nuevo!


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## constellation90 (Dec 6, 2008)

IronBrain said:


> There you go !!!
> 
> Gear oil SAE 85W-140 [SubsTech]
> 
> ...


Whale oil is not as simple as you think! Here's a great book written on the subject from over a hundred years ago. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35001/35001-h/35001-h.htm You might find it surprising all the different types of oils they were actually using, and how they were even considering things like how molecules reacted over a hundred years ago!.


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## ChrisTheEngineer (Nov 21, 2015)

The issue that convinced me to get watch oil was the migration/creep effect. I want my lubricants to stay where they are needed. What I don't get is why common household oil is not formulated similarly. I plan on getting some clock oil for my general purpose use on small mechanisms.


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

constellation90 said:


> Whale oil is not as simple as you think! Here's a great book written on the subject from over a hundred years ago. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/35001/35001-h/35001-h.htm You might find it surprising all the different types of oils they were actually using, and how they were even considering things like how molecules reacted over a hundred years ago!.


There are also the small considerations of expectations of the time:

* Most movements were much lower beating than today.
* Interchangeable parts were still not the norm - repairs involved far more filing to fit which generally meant wider tolerances than acceptable on a more modern piece.
* For most watches, timekeeping and consistency expectations were _far_ lower than today. A minute or two a day was still acceptable to many owners.
* On anything remotely decent quality, servicing would be an annual or - at most - biannual job.

At the same time they were using whale / porpoise oil in watches they were also using castor oil in many cars. Try filling your hot hatch with that stuff and see how far you get. After all, oils is oils, huh?

eta: Incidentally, I'm certainly not subscribing to the "you must use every recommended lubricant or your watch will explode" view - and I don't think any of the pro's around here would. Hence the point of this thread.

But there's a world of difference between, say, deciding that HP1300 / D5 will be ok in a mainspring barrel instead of braking grease, at the possible expense of a little power reserve, and deciding that you may as well fill it with olive oil because that's what's in your kitchen.


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## kanikune (Nov 21, 2012)

Sorry for the little bit of off topic, but what is more important job for the brake grease: To prevent metal to metal contact OR to enhance power reserve?

I see always people stating that it gives you better power reserve, but I think the more important factor is the wear prevention.

Just some time ago I heard about a watchmaker who doesn't use brake grease at all for the automatic watch barrels. The claim was it doesn't effect on the power reserve. 
I don't buy that, but it got me thinking the situation without the grease. Alloy mainspring dragging all the time in the brass barrel.. hmm..


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

As long as he uses _some_ form of pressure resistant lubrication there'll be protection against metal-metal contact. That's something that an automotive analogy _is_ valid for.

If you consider the working faces of a camshaft, these are almost invariably lubricated by oil splash or spray. The peak pressures _and_ rubbing speeds concerned are enormous - you're talking thousands of lbs / square inch and 100s of feet per second. But the simple layer of oil between cam and follower is enough to protect them for, usually, the life of the engine.

But oil in a mainspring barrel (automatic with bridle) may (it's not guaranteed but it's likely) allow the bridle to slip earlier than the maker intended which will tend to reduce power reserve _if_ it slips before the spring is fully wound. It _may_ also allow the spring to slip further before grip is restored, which will have the same effect.

Given that most makers slightly understate the possible reserve (better for an owner to find they have extra than not enough!), the effect may or may not be apparent in any given case without servicing the movement, testing it with the recommended lubricant then re-cleaning the barrel and re-testing with an alternative.


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

I admit that the king of oiling your father's clock had was really bad, but i cant hold myself from asking how the clock was oiled ? was it a precise oiling or he was just squirting oil everywhere in in clock from time to time ?
If the squirting method was used i am wondering what if clock oil was used instead of the 20w50 ? would the clock be in better shape with no cleaning just clock oil squirted inside for 40 years ?
Another point here is that 20w50 oils is pretty thin compared with standard clock oil witch would somehow helped the migration of oil inside the clock. Combined with all that dirt and metal particles from the lack of cleaning (witch would turn any oil into abrasive material), i tend to think that the clock would had been in about the same shape if clock oil would had been squirted inside all these years.


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> . . . . Another point here is that 20w50 oils is pretty thin compared with standard clock oil witch would somehow helped the migration of oil inside the clock. . . . .


LOL.

Which standard clock oil?

Thank you for the continued entertainment that you are providing.


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

ChrisTheEngineer said:


> The issue that convinced me to get watch oil was the migration/creep effect. I want my lubricants to stay where they are needed. What I don't get is why common household oil is not formulated similarly. I plan on getting some clock oil for my general purpose use on small mechanisms.


HI Chriss,
i personally think that most of the migration/creep effect of oil has to do with the viscosity of the oil used aswell as the surface and the way it is applied. In my opinion, clock oil that never migrate has to do more with marketing than reality.
I did make a test with my moebius 8000 clock oil. I put a micro drop piece of metal that i did scratched a bit of sand paper and another drop on the same metal surface unscratched. The result is that on the scratched surface the moebius oil migrated a bit trough the small little scratches on the metal but on the mirror finish surface it did stayed put.
If you see my earlier posts, you can see a drop of 85w140 gear oil i did put on that old hard drive . Even today that drop of oil never migrated and stayed the way i did put it.
I admit that allot more testing might be needed to know more about oil migration but i am planing on testing and documenting about this migration issue and post it back soon.
I will take a normal piece of metal as close as possible to the finish and composition of a watch mainplate and put a micro drop of different oils on it including clock oil. Then i would rotate that piece of metal every day for a couple of days and take pictures of it to see how and if clock oil does migrate in comparative with other oils with the same relative viscosity.
I find this subject on oils very intriguing.

here is another arrticle that talks about oil migration :
Surface roughness and orientation effects on the thermo-capillary migration of a droplet of paraffin oil


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

IronBrain said:


> I admit that the king of oiling your father's clock had was really bad, but i cant hold myself from asking how the clock was oiled ? was it a precise oiling or he was just squirting oil everywhere in in clock from time to time ?
> If the squirting method was used i am wondering what if clock oil was used instead of the 20w50 ? would the clock be in better shape with no cleaning just clock oil squirted inside for 40 years ?
> Another point here is that 20w50 oils is pretty thin compared with standard clock oil witch would somehow helped the migration of oil inside the clock. Combined with all that dirt and metal particles from the lack of cleaning (witch would turn any oil into abrasive material), i tend to think that the clock would had been in about the same shape if clock oil would had been squirted inside all these years.


No, he didn't just spray the stuff. Every few years he'd strip it, clean in petrol, then oil using a watchmaker's screwdriver as a dip oiler. In fact, the only read differences between what he did and a pro service were not correcting wear and using motor oil instead of clock oil.

Don't forget, as you "test" things that oil in a clock or watch:

(a) xdoesn't have to just stay there for a month or two - it has to do so for years, and

(b) is continually being "stirred" by a rotating pivot that's trying to break down its surface tension. Even a drop of water on glass will tend to bead where it is until it's disturbed!


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

pithy said:


> LOL.
> 
> Which standard clock oil?
> 
> Thank you for the continued entertainment that you are providing.


I must say that after some online browsing that you are right the 
20w50(152 cst at 40) oil is not allot thiner than lets say clock oil (novostar h with 132cst at 20) but the cleaning and squirting issue remains.
Also in this article, you can observe that oil migration has everything to do with viscosity :
http://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf
Thanks and sorry for the "entretainement" part, but i am an "out of the box thinking person" and have always questioned and tested alternatives and never walked the worn path unless i know that no alternative exist. Life is so exciting  with so many ways to do the same thing.
Happy new year by the way !!!


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

IN this article this clock repairing shop actually recommend motor oil for oiling clocks :

http://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> . . . Also in this article, you can observe that oil migration has everything to do with viscosity : . . . .


You may wish to let your shovel cool off before you burn it up and it loses its temper.


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

and here is the original article :
Tid-Bit 22 - Of Oil, Oilers and Oil Sinks - SNClocks


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

pithy said:


> You may wish to let your shovel cool off before you burn it up and it loses its temper.


Sorry but since you continue to subtly insult in discredit my opinion i had to add you to my ignore list.
Fine if you do not approve my opinion but keep the lack of respect away please.
Have a great day .


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> and here is the original article :
> Tid-Bit 22 - Of Oil, Oilers and Oil Sinks - SNClocks


T R I B O L O G Y

You may wish to consult some academic and professional texts before you discredit yourself any further.


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

Joe Horner said:


> No, he didn't just spray the stuff. Every few years he'd strip it, clean in petrol, then oil using a watchmaker's screwdriver as a dip oiler. In fact, the only read differences between what he did and a pro service were not correcting wear and using motor oil instead of clock oil.
> 
> Don't forget, as you "test" things that oil in a clock or watch:
> 
> ...


Pretty weird i must say and your thinking so sound but why other clockmakers recommend motor oil to fix clocks like you can see in this article ?

http://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf


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## IronBrain (Jan 15, 2015)

pithy said:


> T R I B O L O G Y
> 
> You may wish to consult some academic and professional texts before you discredit yourself any further.


Well i guess that evry "academic and profesional" test were TRIBOLOGY at one point in time.
People even burned guys like Giordano Bruno for heresy (TRIBOLOGY at that time) only to accredit him later on.

Just a little question ,
Are you working for SWATCH ?


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## pithy (Aug 22, 2010)

IronBrain said:


> Well i guess that evry "academic and profesional" test were TRIBOLOGY at one point in time. People even burned guys like Giordano Bruno for heresy (TRIBOLOGY at that time) only to accredit him later on. Just a little question , Are you working for SWATCH ?


lol.

Hey IB, when do you go back to school? Monday?


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## TomBombadil (Oct 27, 2011)

Iron Brain - In the document you reference it is of great note that with the authors 51 years of experience they ultimately suggest that:

Nye Synthetic 140B for:
• Small pivots (<.015")
• Balance Cups and Pivots
• Lever Escape Wheels

If you do not know, Nye 140B is a very specialized clock oil, designed and developed and tested for purpose.

http://www.amazon.com/Nye-Clock-And-Valve-140B/dp/B000HYM1J2

So for any fine -clock- work the authors are using a professional oil specifically designed for purpose.

In addition, this forum is mainly about watchmaking, and not clock-making, where the scales are much reduced compared with clocks. In engineering and physics we find that materials and systems behave quite differently at different scales. What may work well at one scale will perform badly on another scale.

Thinking out of the box is good, but don't think that other people haven't been thinking out of the box for hundreds of years. Do you not think we have had discussions about oils, many, many times before? Do you not think that we do research and can use books and scientific journals and even the internet? Have you considered that many here are professionals and have given some considerable time to the thoughts and issues involved.

Do you not think that large companies like Nye and Swatch and the many others do not do extensive testing on their oils? These histories and experience go back decades and even hundreds of years.

But remember - we would love to here about your extensive testing and hear and see your results. It would help if they are professionally done and well presented. We would love to see pictures, videos, tables and charts and comparative specifications ie working, temperature ranges, scale, pressure, volatility/evaporation are just a few (temperature controlled fridges and ovens may be useful - but be safe).

I have had scientific papers rejected with quite critical comments, it is a professional's job to establish credibility to take criticism on the chin and respond with results and conclusions and argue their case. But your 'approach' is making many of us smile! Especially as the evidence you reference does not support your case as shown above. As to the automotive oil and grease you suggest, if you want to use them, go ahead - nobody will stop you!

I think Samantha's comments earlier were very wise - from a professional watchmaker with considerable experience.

.....Tom


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## BenchGuy (Sep 23, 2012)

This is interesting reading:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US6858567.pdf

It seems we would like the subject of lubrication to be simple...case in point..."only two oils". It isn't. Viscosity is not the only parameter. We discuss "oil" as if it is one substance. Oils are (usually) mixtures of organic compounds. They are subject to degradation (some are biological substrates). Their physical characteristics are subject to change...some components are more volatile* than others (*volatile as a physical characteristic...not as in "explosive" or the passionate discussion of lubricants).

Until lubricants are formulated which stay in place, reduce friction to near zero, and do not change in character; I expect that time and $ will be spent in R&D to formulate the same.

Meanwhile it seems to be an accurate observation that personalities engaging in threads about lubricants on f6 are like polar and non-polar solvents.

Best regards, BG


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## ChrisTheEngineer (Nov 21, 2015)

Reading this thread got me to thinking about the various oils & lubricants I use / have used:
1) watch oils
2) household oils
3) penetrating oils
4) heavy threading oils
5) sizing oil for forming dies
6) cutting oils
7) silicone grease
8) molly grease
9) motor oils
10) gear oil
11) cooking oils
12) fuel oils
13) transformer oil
14) conductive grease
15) dielectric grease
16) castor oil
17) ?


Think about which substitutions you would make for:
a) long term high reliability operation
b) short term crisis operation (emergency, survival, ...)

I submit that for (b) many substitutions are workable, less so for (a).

I'm having a hard time thinking of a case (b) for watches.


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## Joe Horner (Nov 11, 2011)

IronBrain said:


> Pretty weird i must say and your thinking so sound but why other clockmakers recommend motor oil to fix clocks like you can see in this article ?
> 
> http://www.kensclockclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Clock-Oils.pdf


haven't downloaded that pdf yet because I'm on a ****ty connection and it keeps failing, but one article from one repairer doesn't really support an assertion that "other clockmakers recommend..." At best, it supports "there is A clockmaker who recommends...."

On the other link you provided it's interesting to note that he compared "some [unspecified] horological lubricants" to "quality synthetic motor oil" which is about as unscientific as you can get. Were the "some lubricants" old vegetable based ones? What of other horological oils that _didn't_ show either of those problems? What of mineral, or semi-synthetic, motor oils?

As for creep having "everything to do with viscosity", that simply isn't true.

Consider distilled water on a clean glass surface. It will bead and not even flow down a vertical surface. Now try the same with ditilled water with a _tiny_ amount of wetting agent, such as ordinary dish soap, added. It will now spread out over the glass and flow downhill.

A few drops of detergent in (say) a litre of water won't have any significant effect on its viscosity (it will still pour at the same speed) but it will have a _massive_ effect on its surface tension - which is all that keeps those drops in place in the first test. That's because surface tension has a far greater effect on the tendency of a fluid to spread than viscosity does.

Now, viscosity and surface tension aren't peculiar properties of water - they apply to all fluids including oil.

Kerosene has a viscosity of around 1.6cP, which is actually _higher_ than the viscosity of mercury (about 1.5cP). But, if you put kerosene on a plate it'll spread out immediately. If you put mercury on the same plate it'll stay exactly where you put it indefinitely - even trying to get back into one blob if you disturb it. Mercury has lower viscosity but _hugely_ higher surface tension.

Similarly, isopropyl alcohol (common solvent used for, eg, tape and CD cleaning amongst many others) has a viscosity of about 1.9cP compared to water @ 0.9cP but will spread a LOT faster if you spill it because its surface tension is less than half that of water.

So, no, creep absolutely _isn't_ determined by viscosity - not even remotely!


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## Snakepottery (Nov 4, 2011)

Most enlightening Joe. 
Thanks for the detailed and comprehensible explanation!

Snake


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Roland Ranfft (Mar 29, 2006)

Hi Joe,


Joe Horner said:


> ....So, no, creep absolutely _isn't_ determined by viscosity - not even remotely!


 For sure, but consider that people prefer to believe in myths than in physical facts.

The pysical mechanisms in interfaces between different materials are still far from being investigated to a satisfying extent. The difference of the surface tensions of the involved materials is for sure one of the most important terms for spreading of liquids, but unfortunately not the only, and occasionally even not the most important.

So the progress in lubricant design must still be done by experiments, not by any calculation. And as user of such lubricants I simply believe that the manufacturers of them spend more intelligence and money on such experiments, than hobbyists that drop unspecified stuff on unspecified surfaces.

If a hobbyist offers a stuff that stays longer in place on ruby, steel, and nickel than the oils of established oil makers, and if it doesn't affect these materials, I would for sure buy it. But until now I never noticed such proves, and therefore stick to proven watch lubricants.

Regards, Roland Ranfft


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## madmars (Dec 6, 2013)

How long before they evaporate if watch is not used much?


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## ChrisTheEngineer (Nov 21, 2015)

As a (bit stale) followup to Joe Horner's post above (#71) that viscosity is unrelated to creep/migration, I just read the label of some lubricating oil I was using. 
It says "High Viscosity and Penetration," i.e. formulated to be both viscous and penetrating.


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## jcoffin1981 (Aug 16, 2009)

I also agree with the 9010 and HP-1300. I thought D5 was great till I discovered HP-1300. I suppose you could substitute the 1300 somewhere you would use 9020 for a large movement, like a center wheel. I have to say I would have a hard time parting with silicone PML stem grease and 9501 synthetic grease for the canon pinion. I love the way winding and setting feels after using these products, so I would cheat!


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